Ask: Functional Programming: Where to Start? - <AUTHOR>

The, "Why I Hate Lisp" post that's been on the top of the page all day finally prodded me to start reading PG's writings on Lisp. I have a BS in Math, so my curiosity is piqued and I want to start learning functional programming.
Currently I develop in C#, Javascript, Python, PHP, and Java (ordered by proficiency).
I want to get suggestions from the HN community on which functional language (or language that supports functional-esque programming) is the best place to start with the criteria for "best" being, you can also recommend a well written book to go along with the language and that the language might allow me to leverage my current experience (unless the pure kick-ass-ness of the language outweighs any benefit I might gain by leveraging my experience. i.e. Scheme > F#).
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Another good place to start would be Haskell. Real World Haskell is a good book, and there are several resources to get you started on the web (<http://learnyouahaskell.com/> , <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/YAHT> ).

I just started immersing myself in RWH (had to take a brief break from it because I switched clients) but I really liked the book.

Naturally I agree with apgwoz that SICP is another good place to start if you decide to go with Scheme. It is definitely a book every programmer should read, so you do get two for the price of one ;-)

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER3> Most people would say start with SICP (<http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/>), and I think I would agree. It really stresses higher order programming.

OCaml would be nice too, for you, since F# is at least as powerful as it, and you could start using that in your C# environment.

</comment><comment><USER4> Since you explicitly mentioned C# and F#, I'd suggest OCaml. There's a free translation of a French O'Reilly book, _Developing applications with Objective Caml_, at <http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/> (the site seems to be down for me at the moment). The first few chapters focus on functional programming, then imperative programming, then compare their strengths, weaknesses, and when using each is most appropriate. (OOP and others are covered later in the book.) It's a pretty good intro to FP, imho.

Once you know FP techniques, you can apply them in many languages people don't tend to think of as functional (though tail-call optimization helps, and support for higher-order functions is all but necessary); I write strongly FP- influenced code in Lua, for example.

Scheme is also an _utterly_ fantastic language, but I'm going to defer recommendations there to others. (Except: I really like Chicken - <http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/>)

</comment><comment><USER5> Erlang is a nice, practical one that has some very evident sweet spots and is good in the real world. Haskell seems to be where a lot of the academic world is at, if you're going for something that's more a learning experience rather than something strictly practical (not to say you can't do real world stuff with Haskell, but historically, that hasn't been its emphasis).

</comment><comment><USER6> No matter which language you choose for productivity, I would start with the exercises in the Little Schemer or Little MLer. They're disarmingly simple while still challenging your brain to shift into a recursive/applicative mindset.

As for what functional language you want to end up using...well, it depends on your goals.

I'm personally partial to the family of languages which use ML-style type systems, which include OCaml, F#, and Haskell.

The core of F# and OCaml are very similar. F# has better libraries whereas OCaml has both a more powerful type system and more powerful module system.

Haskell is less straight forward than OCaml and F# and has many more esoteric features you need to learn before being considered an expert. Nonetheless, many have found the process of learning to be a mind-expanding process. Also, the Haskell community is much larger and more vibrant than what you'll find with any other statically typed functional language.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Besides being great for my mind, can I compile an assembly in F# and include it in my .NET application? And if so, do you have any real world examples of this being useful?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Get the little schemer. It shows basics of functional programming. Download PLTScheme it's easily the best environment for scheme. Try the examples to get a hang of it.

</comment><comment><USER8> SICP, hands down. If you have some extra time you can watch the lectures on google video.

Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp is a useful supplement but it's not as entertaining as his essays.

If you're learning FP, you're learning AI. Peter Norvig's Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming is the best book for applied FP.

Finally, the best way to learn Lisp is to write your own. It's the easiest language to write and in my opinion the only way to appreciate it.

</comment><comment><USER9> I second the other suggestions. However since you already know Python, for a smooth start you can explore its FP capabilities: There's map, filter and reduce built-in.

I found SICP nice. You can try to do the exercises in Haskell, too.</comment>


Ask HN: Good Twitters to follow?  - <AUTHOR>

I seek a bunch of good twitters to follow, and I guess many others do as well. So, do you have any good recommendations? <comment><USER2> Jeff Miller put together a list of "Twitter Users Most Followed by Readers of Hacker News":

[http://jeffmiller.github.com/2010/07/28/twitter-users- most-f...](http://jeffmiller.github.com/2010/07/28/twitter-users-most- followed-by-readers-of-hacker-news)

</comment><comment><USER3> My advice is to do searches of your interested... Find people who talk about what you care about; even more importantly, people who interact with their followers. It all depends on what you care about.

</comment><comment><USER4> Felicia Day (@feliciaday). She's a celebrity whose life is nothing like mine, and yet her tweets are the most sincere and down-to-earth of nearly anyone I follow. Her tweets put things in perspective.</comment>


Simple Homemade TEA Laser (2007) - <AUTHOR> http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/tealaser/tealaser7.htm <comment><USER2> (2007)

This is really clever! But it looks incredibly dangerous and probably emits an enormous amount of RF noise.

The article never says what "TEA" stands for:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEA_laser)

Tranversely Excited Atmospheric

<comment><USER3> Asking for a friend, would such a thing disrupt the connection between his neighbor's phone and said neighbor's Bluetooth speaker when he puts it next to his fence in the garden?

<comment><USER4> A spark gap generator would probably work better for that, but jamming is illegal.

<comment><USER3> Yeah I told that friend, but he feels that constantly providing background music for your neighbor's lives should also be illegal. He's looking for a more secluded house as well.

<comment><USER5> > constantly providing background music for your neighbor's lives should also > be illegal

In most areas, it is often illegal, violates an ordinance, or is considered a tort.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I always get really nervous every time I see the words "homemade" and "laser" in the same sentence.

I had to take a laser safety workshop in college and the stories of accidental blindings still haunt me. Those were from people who worked with lasers for a living, so god knows what people messing around with them in their garage can do.

</comment><comment><USER7> A very cool project, but this author is much to blase about safety IMHO. UV lasers can blind you -- or, even more to the point, other people -- in an instant if you aren't careful. And they can do so across long distances. You should treat them with the same respect and caution that you would a firearm.

</comment><comment><USER8> Here's how to read this post.

"Any atmospheric pressure linear spark with a field greater than about 10kV/cm will show stimulated emission from nitrogen."

This type of laser design is a well-known curiosity. It is not useful or reliable, and always winds up on a shelf somewhere, or in the trash.

<comment><USER9> I'm really happy it was posted here, since I've never heard of this effect. Do you have some further reading on the "not useful or reliable" aspect? This site, for example, lists multiple applications for them: [http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/Lasers...](http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/lasers/LasersN2.htm)

<comment><USER9> It's especially interesting to me because (as the article points out), it doesn't require any really exotic equipment or skills to build one. I'm a little surprised no one built one long before helium-neon lasers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you are more of a video person, here is 5 minute video from _styropyro_ of him explaining and building one: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1psxE4NlECQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1psxE4NlECQ)

<comment> non-entity I found his videos just yesterday! I was watching a video about an extremely high powered laser he ended up burning stuff with, and was incredibly tempted to get my hands on one till he noted how they try to keep that stuff away from hobbyists lol.

<comment><USER9> It's not that hard to get ahold of reasonably high-powered lasers. IIRC, one of the ones he used was ordered direct from China, sold as a tattoo remover.

If you decide to experiment with them, please be very careful, and buy proper eye protection from a reputable supplier. There are a lot of garbage goggles out there that don't actually filter out the parts of the spectrum that they claim to. I've seen this myself with some alleged UV goggles that were the same shade of green as my actual UV goggles, but didn't filter UV light. IIRC, in the tattoo remover video, he finds the same thing with the useless "safety" goggles that that laser included.

If you have proper laser safety goggles for the type of beam you're working with, you probably won't be able to see the beam, which takes some of the fun out of it. Years ago, I saw a video of a folded-optic welding helmet that put HDR imagery on displays inside the helmet, so the eyes weren't even exposed. That would be an ideal approach for lasers, IMO, but I can't even find the video now, let alone DIY plans or an inexpensive commercial product.

It's the 21st century, but you still can't get the replacement eyes that 80s cyberpunk novels promised us. It's very easy to lose some or all of one's sight when experimenting with lasers. Back around 2010, I was about 3/4 of the way through building a laser pistol out of a DVD writer diode and some custom electronics when I realized that even in the best case scenario, it wasn't worth risking my eyesight, so I abandoned it before going from the breadboard phase to the "fits into a pistol form factor" version.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Very cool. Reminds me of the times in middle/high school when I used to hunt down computer repair shops and scavenge old or spoilt dvd/cd drives to build lasers. The diodes harvested from drives that could write to disks were powerful enough to burn through black tape and even light matches! All you needed was an LM317T voltage regulator and a housing for the diode if my memory serves my correctly. Fun times, as long as you stayed safe :)

<comment><USER12> Death Ray Lasers are what we called those in high school. They were fascinating projects because they managed to bring together the computer geeks and the gear heads in shop class.

Because everybody likes setting things on fire with lasers!

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> TEA laser is a new term for me. It resembles the Nitrogen UV laser I have wanted to build since I was a teenager and found the article in Scientific American's "Amateur Scientist" column.

"An Unusual kind of gas laser that puts out pulses in the ultraviolet" Scientific American, Amateur Scientist (June 1974)

This guy references it with regard to his TEA laser as well:

[https://www.cornellcollege.edu/physics-and- engineering/pdfs/...](https://www.cornellcollege.edu/physics-and- engineering/pdfs/phy-312/chad-compton.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER14> This seems like a fun project, but I don't really understand what's going on here.

I see a bright light, a lot of metal and electronics, and then what appears to be a laser point. Scientifically, what's going on here?

<comment><USER15> From what I understand, there is a discharge along the length of the electrodes which would excite the medium (air) in the gap. Now photons are being emitted randomly in all directions. This means also _in direction along the gap_. This is important since these photons will interact with more of the excited medium and thereby stimulate emission of additional photons, leading to 'lasing'. As long as there are excited molecules (or atoms) left, this is a self-amplifying process. (Lasers are basically clever contraptions to keep these excited states populated)

Notice that there is no resonator with mirrors at each end as you would see in other lasers.

It is also a UV laser which means you can not see the beam without it interacting with a substance that can convert UV to visible light. That's dangerous because you could inadvertently look into the beam (via reflections from somewhere in the lab!) and take eye damage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> sign outside a physics lab:

"Don't look at laser through remaining good eye"

</comment><comment><USER17> And there I was hoping this would be about using tea as a gain medium to make a laser. Green tea is slightly fluorescent, right?

<comment><USER15> How I would go about this: if you are not interested in learning about dye lasers yourself, I would find a specialist working with dye lasers on Twitter and ask them to settle "an argument with a friend" that green tea does not work as gain medium. Then wait and hope that you have nerd-sniped them. With a bit of luck you can read a paper about the topic one day. ;)</comment></comment>


The Underground Wind Bulbs of Utah - <AUTHOR> http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-underground-wind-bulbs-of-utah.html <comment><USER2> The bit about the Antarctic water "bulb" mining and subsequent sewage dumping to fill the hollow reminded me of a bit of fiction:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_7_%28novel%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_7_%28novel%29) \- not mentioned in the wiki is the part where the underground reservoir for supplies has a moving partition, the other side of which is being filled with sewage.

Ah, cautionary tales ...

</comment><comment><USER3> What if there's a leak in the salt mine?

I mean, a salt mine is just a large hole in the ground. What assurance do we have that it doesn't have any hairline cracks through which compressed air can escape?

And if the air does begin to escape and erode the surrounding rock, how do you prevent a massive explosion occurring at some point? Is the weight of the rock above the cavern enough to keep the air compressed at 1100 psi?

</comment><comment><USER4> My favorite method of short-term energy storage at scale is to use excess energy during non-peak times to pump water uphill, back into a reservoir. The topology has to be right for it (and obviously it requires there to be plenty of excess water), but it's a simple method to smooth out peak demand.

<comment><USER2> It gets expensive, in direct and environmental costs, when you end up building additional small dams just for that.

Around here those costs were quietly palmed off on consumers, while the virtues of wind power were being sung.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wikipedia has rather more information on this, including (in the History section) a bunch of examples of this at scale going back to the 70s

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage)

</comment><comment><USER6> Seems like if there is a salt mine they could make some sort of battery out of the salt.

<comment><USER7> If that were possible, couldn't you do the same thing to _the entire ocean_?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is pretty neat. I wonder how cost effective it is vs compressed fluid storage.

<comment><USER9> If by fluid you mean liquid, liquids don't compress.

<comment><USER10> Well, they do compress, just not enough to bother to store energy into them. (Sorry, I gotta nitpick the nitpickers.)</comment></comment></comment>


Court finds primarily for "Our Children's Trust" but that courts can do nothing [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://static1.squarespace.com/static/571d109b04426270152febe0/t/5e22508873d1bc4c30fad90d/1579307146820/Juliana+Press+Release+1-17-20.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Full title: Decision of Divided Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Finds Primarily for Juliana Plaintiffs, but Holds Federal Judiciary Can Do Nothing to Stop the U.S. Government in Causing Climate Change and Harming Children

Here's the link to the actual court decision: [https://static1.squarespace.com/static/571d109b04426270152fe...](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/571d109b04426270152febe0/t/5e22101b7a850a06acdff1bc/1579290663460/2020.01.17+JULIANA+OPINION.pdf)</comment>


This is a blog post that's incredibly confusing and painful for me to write - <AUTHOR> http://blog.maxistentialism.com/post/91476212698/this-is-a-blog-post-thats-incredibly-confusing <comment><USER2> Let me begin by saying that this is frustrating for all groups involved. But I wanted to specifically address what Max really can or cannot do regarding this situation.

1\. I understand those that say that he should sue. But think of it this way: even if he goes through a long lawsuit to sue and wins, he still comes up worse for wear: people who hated him to begin with will just say he "bought" his freedom with high priced lawyers, and the publicity the trial would generate would just hurt him more no matter what the outcome.

2\. What's frustrating to me is even in these HN comments, the fact that he _isn't_ suing is somehow proof that there might be more to the story! You end up not winning -- not going to trial is because you know the "truth" might come out, and going to trial and winning will still prove that you might still be guilty, but celebrity status/money helped you.

3\. Other people argue he should / should not have posted this blog post. But again, it's a catch-22: if you don't publish the blog post, it's because you are trying to bury the story because there might be some truth to it. But if you do publish it, now people think you aren't telling _the whole truth_ and are just spinning it to get people on your side!

So really, no matter what you do, there's no good solution. If you sue, your victory will be Pyrrhic at best. If you don't sue, you're hiding something. If you post a response, you are spinning it. If you don't post, you're hiding something.

Worse yet, defending Max can end up being a lose-lose situation as well. If I believe Max's story, and defend him in forums/communications, that can portray me as being a sympathizer to sexual offenders rather than victims, which would anger me very much.

Sexual assault is a travesty. Period. And victims already have many times a hard enough time coming forward and talking about it, yet alone going to the police -- under the assumption that they might not be believed or that they will be shamed. But we need to make sure that there is justice for all, without hurting either side. We still have a long way to go.

<comment><USER3> so basically, we live in a society where anyone's reputation can be instantly, completely and forever ruined, at will, by someone leveling a rape accusation on the internet.

<comment><USER4> This is one of the reasons why having adequate legal recourse is so important. The incompetence and inadequacy of the criminal justice system injures us all.

In an ideal world we would simply say "where is the evidence, this should be sorted out in a trial". But given that the cops are so hostile to sexual assault victims, forensics which aren't processed for _decades_ ([http://www.npr.org/2014/01/25/266275211/tested-at-last- rape-...](http://www.npr.org/2014/01/25/266275211/tested-at-last-rape-kits- giving-evidence-to-victims-stories) ) and a legal system which will try the credibility of victims, it's hard to blame any sexual assault victim who shies away from reporting.

In the end, unanswered questions persist.

<comment><USER5> This is a social problem, not a legal problem.

The day when these sorts of accusations from a man against a woman carries the same weight with the same debilitating effects, _then_ we can start talking about the legal problems.

Until then, this is about the bias our society as a whole has against men with respect to the rape issue, and woman understanding this.

<comment><USER6> (I'm more on your side than not.)

What does it even mean for 'society' to 'have a bias'? That individuals in group G fare worse in situation S, all other things being equal, than individuals in other groups? If you have a better reading, please let me know. If not, we have disembarked too far from the cognitive for bias, an inherently cognitive thing, as our explanation.

Look at my name and call me a hammer-nail guy, but here's what I think: it comes down to options - yours, others', your expectation of others', theirs of yours, and most especially the resulting interplay of all of the above. Human beings are the situation you put them in.

You and I (and Max Temkin and Julian Assange) have a grounded reason for a general fear of false rape accusation: that option is available to any woman we've ever spent an hour with. Is any individual, no matter her motivations, terribly likely to exercise that option? No, but that's not the disturbing part. The disturbing part is, there's no recourse once they do - no options.

But why! Why are there no options? Because rape is the exact thing that it is: a grievous crime whose lasting scars are emotional more often than physical. Anything else, it's different: show me the dead body, show me the stolen thing, what have you. If you're a woman, and some dude rapes you but somehow there's no physical scarring and no dna and no webcam recording and no witnesses-- an altogether plausible scenario, we can all agree-- then fuck you, says the legal system. No options. Not that the legal system has an option in the matter either; you can't have a system that sends people to jail for decades on testimony without evidence. No options here, no options there, no options everywhere, for everyone.

We, by which I mean the public, tend to believe the accuser, in my personal opinion, a) because some fraction of the public is women who have been exactly there, with no options, and see themselves in the accuser (regardless of whatever the real truth of the matter may be), and b) _because_ they don't believe their voice matters anyway. Perhaps secretly, but all the same. Your girlfriend's opinion on Ben Roethlisberger's guilt of rape will, she is well aware, have zero legal effect. But it's your potential no-option situation, not hers, on your mind when you challenge her living room accusations for lack of evidence. A challenge which she can't answer because rape is the thing that it is.

<comment><USER5> > What does it even mean for 'society' to 'have a bias'?

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/adria- richards_n_29...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/adria- richards_n_2932686.html)

"He has three children and is now unemployed. "

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> While it's very chivalrous of him to not want to lawyer up, what he's describing is libel, pure and simple. This "friend" of his did something completely inappropriate, and is liable to cause significant monetary damage, a possibly permanent stain on his reputation, and significant psychological distress.

Not pursuing this through the appropriate venues—the legal system—simply lets her "get away with it". That's not being nice to her, that's being in an abusive relationship and not speaking up for yourself.

<comment><USER8> It's somewhat troubling that this top-rated comment and all its children assume this can only be a false accusation.

I can only assume that this is the case with many rape accusations, especially those from years ago, though what limited research there is suggests false rape accusations are rare (2-8%).

The horrible part about it is that when an accusation like this is made, either one person or the other will potentially have their life destroyed, but the alternatives for both parties are also horrible: for the victim to stay silent, or for the falsely accused to not defend themselves.

<comment><USER9> From the article:

> That is my rapist. Having his face pop up on my news feed unexpectedly in > any context has the capacity to ruin my day. Seeing him praised in the press > is giving me a panic attack.

This is _classic_ SJW (Social Justice Warrior) / Tumblr language. Many within this community genuinely believe a man is raping a woman literally by only looking at her. No, this is not a joke.

For some representative examples of how insane those within this movement are, there are plenty of examples posted on reddit:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction](http://www.reddit.com/r/tumblrinaction)

I don't doubt this girl genuinely believes she was raped, but I'm quite confident her definition of rape is vastly different than the mainstream definition.

<comment><USER10> What a terrible thing to say. What she wrote sounds like classic _Post Traumatic Stress Disorder_. I have PTSD myself and this is exactly the kind of thing that triggers it.

As for the Cards against Humanity game, let that be "exhibit A".

<comment><USER11> I agree that what mistermann said is wrong. But I find your claim that Cards Against Humanity are any kind of evidence appalling. Does that extend to the whole team? Are all of them potential rapists because they enjoy making those cards? What about the buyers?

Humor is humor, nothing more.

<comment><USER12> >Humor is humor, nothing more.

What an utterly false, utterly stupid thing to say. If you think humor is removed at all from misogyny and racism you are willfully blind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> And yet another example of why public shaming is bad.

If rape did happen, bring it before the courts. If not, don't ruin peoples' lives. And don't wait 10 years to accuse someone.

Who knows what really happened. Were they both blackout-drunk? Was it really awkward and bad? Maybe she consented and then regretted it? Maybe it was rape, in which case she should have reported it 10 years ago... Is she trying to cash in since he's slightly more successful than the stereotype of a philosophy major?

<comment><USER14> I'm not going to discuss this particular case, which I know nothing about, but generally speaking, I think it's fairly to look at it from a distance and say "Maybe it was rape, in which case she should have reported it 10 years ago".

I am not an expert on the matter, but for many rape victims, it is not as easy as it sounds. A lot of different factors come into play when trying to muster the courage to go report a life-shattering incident such as rape. Guilt, fear of not being taken seriously, facing the incident once again, anguish about legal procedures, etc.

Can't emphasize this enough, it's not something you can look at rationally and say "That person should have done that".

<comment><USER13> I'm sure its not easy.

But making an accusation on Twitter is all too easy.

In our society, when a crime occurs we want justice. Mob anger on the internet isn't justice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> FWIW, here's the apparent tweet that was forwarded to the OP, with the ensuing (and vague) discussion:

[https://twitter.com/paulidin/status/487237076413612034](https://twitter.com/paulidin/status/487237076413612034)

I saw another tweet from Andy Baio saying that the victim would release her side of the story on an online site (the link he gave was blank, though)...whatever the events, it probably wasn't ideal for a "friend of a friend" to make such a conclusive indictment, for either the OP or for the accuser.

<comment><USER16> I find it interesting that someone comes along and says, "No one can have a proper dialogue about this here" which then leads to a response of "What you are doing is silencing the victim & being complicit in rape culture. So yeah, that IS you." which seems to directly prove his opinion that you cannot have proper dialogue about sensitive topics on Twitter.

<comment><USER17> It was basically the stupidest conversation I've ever seen. Lot of people with opinions on a matter they know nothing about (and I can say with no reservation that any of them know the circumstances around what happened).

People are just gullible, and the internet hasn't helped. I swear you could tweet that Einstein was a purple midget and as a result 5 people would go their graves believing it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> >It is entirely possible she read something completely different than I did into an awkward college hookup.

Absent any further evidence from either party and giving both the benefit of the doubt, doesn't this seem like the most likely explanation? It isn't that uncommon for two people to have two completely different takeaways from the same event. If you throw in the probable lack of experience of the two parties, the likelihood that alcohol was involved, and the admission by one of the participants that they lacked communication skills, those odds would seemingly skyrocket.

This is the reason for the whole 90's politically correct era of asking permission before every escalation. That is the best way to prevent this possible scenario until both parties gain the experience, the communication skills, the confidence, and the level of safety to properly convey what the want from the situation.

<comment><USER5> Possible, but not probable. 19 is not 15 and having sex for the first time ever.

One wonders why she didn't accuse him of rape at the time.

<comment><USER19> I really think you are jumping to a conclusion here that 19 years olds are sexually experienced.

<comment><USER5> Do I think a 19 year old is generally going to be as open about sex as a 39 year old?

no.

do I think a 19 year old isn't going to accidentally rape someone?

yes.

Just how many years of experience do you think it takes before one can avoid accidentally raping someone?

<comment><USER11> Why do you assume a 19 year has any sexual experience whatsoever? According to this study[1], 30+% of men hadn't.

[1] Mosher WD, Chandra A, Jones J. Sexual behavior and selected health measures: Men and women 15–44 years of age, United States, 2002

<comment><USER5> shame on you.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16250464](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16250464)

> RESULTS:

Among adults 25-44 years of age, 97 percent of men and 98 percent of women have had vaginal intercourse; 90 percent of men and 88 percent of women have had oral sex with an opposite-sex partner; and 40 percent of men and 35 percent of women have had anal sex with an opposite-sex partner. About 6.5 percent of men 25-44 years of age have had oral or anal sex with another man. Based on a differently worded question, 11 percent of women 25-44 years of age reported having had a sexual experience with another woman. The public health significance of the findings is described.

<comment><USER11> We were talking about 19-years-old, not 25-44. Just because the abstract mentions those ages doesn't mean that's the only data available in the study.

Here's the study with the graph; as you can see, only 69% of 19-year-old men had had vaginal intercourse (i.e., sex): [http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad362.pdf](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad362.pdf)

<comment><USER5> of which the OP is automatically not in the demographic of, seeing as how we're talking about a sexual encounter he had.

It isn't that difficult to avoid accidentally raping someone. Seriously. Why is this something that needs to be argued? 19 is not 15, period.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> "I spoke with my lawyer, and she thinks I have a clear case to sue this woman for libel and get a restraining order, but I have no desire to bully or harm her."

You have the money to defend yourself, you are luckily able to fight back against these fabrications. What if you were less fortunate? You would be -fucked- my friend. You should definitely sue her ass for libel.

<comment><USER21> _What if you were less fortunate? You would be -fucked- my friend._

It sounds like this is kind of exactly what he doesn't want - to somehow represent or stand up for total strangers who were also accused of sexual assault. And I can see why.

If he sues her for libel what, exactly, does he get out of it? Ironically, he'd get a lot more attention than has already been paid to the topic. I doubt he wants that, either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The victim should have reported the rape when it occured. I will always support that choice on the part of the victum.

Not reporting rape when it occurred is not the fault of the victim.

However, she leveled public accusations 10 years later when the only chance of evaluating the accusations is the word and unreliable memories of the two people involved.

Now, even that isn't necessarily a bad thing. She should have that right, and people should come forward in case there are other silent, more recent, victims.

Unfortunately, internet culture involves people thinking that they somehow have the ability and responsiblity to judge the truth of these accusations and then publicly voice that opinion. I wish fewer people on this thread were doing that.

We need to have a safe, secure, victim friendly system for logging these types of accusations, investigating them, looking for corroboration, and then strict guidelines for publicizing these accusations even if the statue of limitations has expired.

Public shaming works, the court of public opinion doesn't.

The most honorable thing in that whole post is this:

"You will not harass or threaten the woman making these claims. I am not looking for a mob of people carrying pitchforks on my behalf. If you harass her or go after her in any way, you are not a friend of mine, and you are not a friend of Cards Against Humanity."

</comment><comment> vezzy-fnord _We removed all of the "rape" jokes from Cards Against Humanity years ago. We'll continue to use the game as best we can to "punch up" and not "punch down."_

Is this the same _Cards Against Humanity_ that I'm thinking of? Because I'm pretty sure that game "punches down" quite hard.

<comment><USER23> Although I realize that on some level it's just not my kind of humor, I honestly think this game is pretty disgusting and I'm surprised by how popular it is.

<comment><USER24> I've actually never met someone who was offended or disgusted by it, excluding those who are socially conservative or religious. That may also be due to the fact that I'm still in the 18-25 age group though.

<comment><USER25> I'm neither socially conservative nor religious nor over 30, yet I think it's horse shit. It's like everything I hate about Reddit distilled into a deck of cards.

Somehow all my friends love it; I personally don't care to imagine midgets ejaculating into dismembered bodies regardless of the context. I guess I just don't understand the humor of shock.

I usually find an excuse to leave a party sooner after CAH gets pulled out, whether I'm roped into playing it or not. Maybe that makes me a loser, whatever.

<comment><USER24> I don't really consider it shock humor for whatever reason. I think it's actually kind of clever and somewhat low-key. It's more like general Internet humor, not so much 4chan humor.

I'm also used to things that are way, way more "edgy". There are games out there that are much more offensive and rely only on shock value, usually involving the n-word and related interspersed frequently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm sorry you have to go through this, and I think it's admirable that you do not want to get lawyers involved, but think of everyone in your position who doesn't have the means to properly defend themselves from something like this. I think it's important to make a point that falsely accusing someone of rape is never okay, and comes with its consequences.

Have fun at gX!

</comment><comment><USER27> Her use of the term "rape culture" is a red flag. I've been seeing it used very very broadly, covering "transgressions" as simple as looking admiringly at a woman for her attractive (and willfully emphasized) figure. She might be labeling her short, intimate & dumped relationship with him as "rape" despite nothing forced nor overtly sexual.

Willful misuse of terms to evoke cultural reactions is not uncommon, extremely hard to counter in fairness, and terribly destructive.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." \- _The Princess Bride_

<comment><USER28> I think that you have a lenient notion of what sexual assault is, and especially that you're inexperienced with feminist thought based on your inappropriate "willfully emphasized" remark (which should correctly be "worn for personal choice and not for the approval of men.")

<comment><USER27> You demonstrate my point well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> > I had a really brief relationship with this girl in college; her dorm room > was next to mine, and after a few evenings staying up talking all night, we > made out. We spent a few nights in each others' rooms, but we never had sex > and neither of us pressured the other into doing anything we weren't > comfortable with. After a few nights, I broke things off in the cowardly way > that 19-year-old guys do, and I just stopped returning her calls and texts.

I'm a bit confused by this part. I thought that the ignore calls and texts method of breakup only worked when those were essentially the only forms of communication you had with the person when not on a date. That method then works because with no more communication, they can no longer arrange dates.

How do you make that method work when the other person is in the next room?

<comment><USER30> I can think of several possibilities, but I'll leave their plausibility for the reader to judge:

\- She was also cowardly about how the relationship ended, and could never work up the nerve to confront him in person. In my own dorm doors were usually kept closed, so if you didn't seek someone out, you would rarely see them at all.

\- She knocked on his door, and he ignored her then too, but omitted it from the article, focusing on where the relationship didn't go rather than exhaustively detailing how it ended

\- The two people kept separate schedules that meant they often weren't home at the same time, save sleeping hours (or, if either had a flexible-schedule night shift job, as my own roommate did, not even then)

\- The relationship occurred near the end of a semester, and both parties moved out about the time it ended. They no longer ran into each other.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> A terrible comment to make in a serious submission about a serious issue, but:

It's interesting that so many people who are internet-famous feminists seem to love Cards Against Humanity. Surely I'm seeing a pattern where there's only pure coincidence, but it caught my attention a while ago.

</comment><comment><USER32> It's unfortunate that so many are uncritically jumping to Max's defense. Scratch that--it's wrong, misogynistic, and reflects badly on the HN community. No one knows what actually happened, except for the accused and the accuser, and even they have to contend with time dulling memory.

If you're part of the group that's immediately discounting her accusation and claiming she made it up, I've got to ask: why? The only reasons I see mentioned here are "it was a long time ago, she would have pressed charges then if she were telling the truth" and "she refers to rape culture, she's clearly a social justice warrior trying to pick up some Twitter followers." But both are transparently bad reasons to attack her credibility.

A more interesting question is how to dispel the fog of claims and counterclaims that makes identifying and prosecuting intimate violence so difficult. I can't imagine anything short of the panopticon that could do that, though.

<comment><USER33> People are uncritically jumping to Max's defense because (1) he's a famous guy who created something they like and (2) as males, it's easier to put themselves in his shoes than hers.

Neither of those reasons are particularly logical, but we're dealing with humans here, not machines.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The accuser/victim has responded to Max's post: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029353](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029353)

<comment><USER34> Cannot see it now. Can you post the text ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Here's a direct link to her blog post: [http://humanityagainstassault.tumblr.com/post/91625206355/tr...](http://humanityagainstassault.tumblr.com/post/91625206355/truth)

Let me know if you still cannot see the post and I'll paste in the text.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I clicked on that link with no clue that it would be SO heavy.

<comment><USER36> Yeah, I was expecting some startup to be shutting down or something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I think my favorite part of the blog post is the last line.

> If you see me this weekend at GaymerX, I could use a hug.

Hook. Line. Sinker.

<comment> mkr-hn I don't get it. Why is this your favorite part, and where does "Hook. Line. Sinker." come in?

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I wanted to say I'm amazed by the number of commenters who just assume the OP states the truth, but I'm not, not really. HN is awfully quick to take sides, and it's very predictable where it comes down. (In the aggregate. Yes, I know there's no HN group mind)

So, as food for thought: What if something happened between these two that was rather awkward, and can be interpreted either way? In that case, I think the OPs response is entirely reasonable - "Oh fuck, this is not what I thought it was, or what I intended it to be. I'd like to talk to her".

I'm very sad the woman's first reaction was to lob a public accusation, yes. If she thinks it's rape, she should've file charges, instead of instigating a pitchfork campaign. On the flip side, the reactions here show _exactly_ how most women claiming rape are treated, including by law enforcement. It immediately becomes a witch hunt.

So how about we withhold judgment on this for a little while, until there are actual facts?

Or are we so desperate for yellow journalism that we _must_ comment on other's private lives without any information?

<comment><USER39> "I wanted to say I'm amazed by the number of commenters who just assume the OP states the truth, but I'm not, not really. HN is awfully quick to take sides, and it's very predictable where it comes down. (In the aggregate. Yes, I know there's no HN group mind)"

There are 121 comments right now. I have no idea how many users HN has, but I think it is safe to assume that the writers of those 121 comments are not a significant part of the group.

I think it is a mistake to draw conclusions about "HN" from a bunch of comments.

<comment><USER38> Yes. It's not the first time HN discusses the topic, though. And given that you're here for 5+ years, I'm _sure_ you have noticed that certain topics tend to trend a certain way on HN, no matter who the actual commenters are.

That's what I meant by "in the aggregate". Any given commenter might come down wherever they feel like that day - few people here are so stubborn that they never change their mind - but the trend is there.

But that was not the point of my post, and I'm sure you're aware of that too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Since the post has no title to revert to, we'll use the first sentence instead. The submitted title ("Co-founder of Cards Against Humanity Accused of Rape"), besides being editorialized, was also arguably misleading, since it suggests that the post consists of the accusation.

Commenters: Please follow the HN guidelines and ensure that your comments are substantive and civil.

<comment><USER41> The first sentence doesn't provide any context, or idea of the content. Could you leave something in there about who wrote it?

<comment><USER40> That's a reasonable request. But HN's title policy is designed to emphasize content more and personalities less. We usually edit author names out of titles even when they're in the original. It isn't hard to figure out who wrote most posts and surely few people are in doubt about this one.

We often use the first sentence of a post as a replacement title when the article title itself is misleading or linkbait, so using it here isn't really a stretch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> The problem with having to "lawyer up" is someone is trying to ruin him over something that isn't real. If he really is innocent, the most likely explanation is that this woman's life has not gone well, and now she is hoping to take revenge on someone who really has only helped her in the past, and in doing so hopefully avoid whatever pain it is the future she's running from; either that or she's just a psychopath.

<comment> mkr-hn I'm not sure whether I'm more offended by the grammar or the content of your user name.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> hmm, whenever anyone calls my character into question i'm ready to fight to the death. The below is not that...

"I spoke with my lawyer, and she thinks I have a clear case to sue this woman for libel and get a restraining order, but I have no desire to bully or harm her. Additionally, I'm not wild about the precedent that sets for other women to come forward in cases of actual sexual assault."

<comment><USER44> May be because it's not you?

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> From the NSA and Snowden to Rape accusations on Facebook, we have (not will, have) entered a world where the old assumptions about secrecy, privacy have fallen away - like a Victorian London Fog blowing away to reveal everyone naked and wondering what to do now others can see.

We really have no landmarks in this new world - whilst I applaud attempts to put the NSA back under the constitution, they are merely a surprising symptom not a cause - everything we do in the digital world is now available for everyone everywhere and when to search.

We need laws, and more importantly cultural norms to deal with this.

I have no idea if rape occurred in this case all those years ago - but I do know that this will cease to be news when it becomes commonplace.

It is a new world, and we must be brave to find the promised land without drowning in the mess that will throw it forth.

Rant over

<comment><USER46> Scary rant.

I'd hate to think that accusations become so commonplace that we no longer think of such a horrible accusation as being unusual. That would give cover to those actually guilty, and leave the innocent always accused.

Sadly, I can't say you are wrong.

<comment><USER45> rape has an unusual position in crime - conviction rates for murder are at 90% or more, for rape they rarely get above 1/3 - and that's for rapes _reported_ which is assumed to be a lot lot lower than committed.

Yet imagine if all those rapes were reported -over social media. We would still hav this anamolous conviction rate and yet a sea of accusations.

Not sure what part of that is worse really.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Having been a man in college once, I concluded that the only sensible thing to do was to record every minute. Accusation of nearly anything can come out of nowhere. And self-surveillance is way more practical now than it was when I was in college.

<comment><USER48> If you actually did this, and recorded girls in sexual situations without their knowledge or consent, you're guilty of crimes punishable by jail time.

<comment><USER47> The accuracy of your statement varies by jurisdiction, and technology will soon force the judiciary to confront the reality of ubiquitous storage and either break from precedent or issue some really awkward rulings.

<comment><USER48> Sounds like you actually did it then. Even hiding behind a throwaway, you probably shouldn't admit to felonies on the internet. On top of that, if you ever tried to submit that "evidence" in defense of a rape accusation, you'd still go to jail for that crime, so your so-called motivation doesn't hold water.

And nice try framing this as a cool new intersection of technology and the law, but "ubiquitous storage" has nothing to do with creating pornographic films without consent. That's been possible since the 1800s, so it has nothing to do with our modern digital age.

A person who went to my university was just sentenced to a couple of years in jail for doing what you did, and beyond the law it's plain disgusting and creepy. You want to film the women (really appreciate the correction, bud) you have sex with? Ask them first.

You sicken me.

<comment> a-t-shirt _> On top of that, if you ever tried to submit that "evidence" in defense of a rape accusation, you'd still go to jail for that crime, so your so-called motivation doesn't hold water._

Yes, you would go to jail for recording the sex act (assuming a jury didn't show mercy on you), but you would _not_ go to jail for the rape you didn't commit.

In terms of your future reputation and life opportunities, it's much better to go to jail for recording a sex act than for a rape you didn't commit.

<comment><USER48> As the throwaway account mentioned, this issue is handled by state law.

In the case that I was referring to, the law under which the person was convicted also registered him as a sex offender, so neither path would've avoided that. Which is as it should be.

Furthermore, apart from what the male-dominated herd wisdom of the internet would like to believe, people don't just get convicted of rape because someone makes a baseless accusation. If you got convicted of rape, it's just like any other criminal case, and that means there was a solid, evidence-backed case against you, and a jury of your peers decided that you were conclusively guilty.

I'm not saying that a false conviction never happened. But if you're someone like the sicko with the throwaway account, filming your every sexual encounter because you're afraid someone's going to accuse you of rape, you're probably not approaching your sexual encounters with a healthy attitude.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> cards against humanity? seriously?

</comment><comment><USER50> This may be the only benefit of not attending college.

</comment><comment><USER51> "patently" should be discontinued as meaning obviously? It makes it confusing when you look at existing patents...

</comment><comment><USER52> Assuming this is true by not pursuing legal action he does two things which make the situation worse.

1) He is allowing someone to diminish the voices of those who have actually suffered rape and need justice. He is also giving ammunition to those who attempt to make the argument that most purported victims of rape are "crying wolf".

2) He makes himself look culpable. This kind of thing is serious and if he's in the right he needs to make it known. The damage to his reputation is already done.

By standing up for himself he'd also be standing up for real victims. Engaging this kind of thing in the legal courts and the court of public opinion can't be easy. I hope at least there can be some resolution.

<comment><USER21> _He is allowing someone to diminish the voices of those who have actually suffered rape and need justice._

He absolutely isn't. Many crimes like this rely on two opposing testimonies - what he said happened, and what she said happened. Even when an actual assault occurs it's very difficult to prove anything. Suing her for libel could absolutely discourage genuine rape victims from stepping forward.

<comment><USER53> So he's required to martyr his reputation to help genuine rape victims? This is twisted.

<comment><USER21> He's not required to, no. It's his choice. And what is so twisted about it? Genuine rape victims have been ignored and under-represented for, well, probably forever. _That_ is twisted. He has the choice of what he does here, many don't. He exercised that choice.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> This is from his e-shop;

> Sorry, foreign person, but our store is not yet available in your inferior > country.

He is a d*ckhead, after all.

<comment><USER55> That is probably less offensive than anything you could find in a Cards Against Humanity deck.

<comment><USER56> CAH is vulgar, crass, and offensive, but it is _insulting_? There is a difference.

<comment><USER57> It's insulting if you play it right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Who are we inclined to believe in this situation; someone who has everything to lose (Max), or someone who has nothing to lose? Obviously I have no specific insight on this situation, but it just got me thinking that since rape is such a touchy subject to bring up, as was mentioned in the article, the girl who lived next to him could have easily fabricated this situation just for the attention, knowing full well that there would not be many questions asked. Just food for thought.

<comment><USER59> Specious logic...

<comment><USER60> Not to mention the ridiculous assertion that the accuser has "nothing to lose."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> What good does it do to speak to her claims? Seems better to just ignore them and move on if they really are, "patently false." Had he said nothing, I wouldn't have any suspicion that he was a rapist, but now... I have to wonder.

<comment><USER62> I don't believe there's much chance of the accusation being forgotten. He's forced to address it, because ignoring it makes it appear he has something to hide.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> _If any part of that was traumatic for her, I am sincerely sorry, and I wish we would have had a chance to address it privately._

Can't apologizing like this be considered as an admission of guilt? Or is that what Hollywood/TV would like me to believe?

EDIT - I didn't mean admitting guilt in terms of the law, but how a lawyer would spin it. Think of what a good lawyer could do with this quote. Max admits that part of the relationship could have been "traumatic for her" and then apologizes for it and then wishes he could have spoken in private.

<comment><USER64> I think the word you're looking for is compassion</comment></comment>


A CEO's Guide to Emacs (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://blog.fugue.co/2015-11-11-guide-to-emacs.html <comment><USER2> It is difficult to even describe a productive hand tuned to fit the individual Emails setup compared to standard.

Here are some of my favorite Emacs things:

Helm + Projectile. Helm will fuzzy complete almost anything in Emacs. Projectile is project management. Together get to any Git repo and file there in very quick. Helm is an option to compare to IDO. I rarely use IDO due to Helm.

Magit, widely regarded as a good Git UI. Using is believing. Better than command line or most GUIs for me.

Various editing nodes are good enough (Python, Lisp of course, Markdown).

Org mode is it's own beast, but if you like outlines and productivity tools Org is very nice. I use it, not extensively. It holds my todos and meeting notes and makes it easy to ha e very complex notes in one doc.

Basic text editing. I think Vi has some things it does better than Emacs here, but it is still very powerful and rewards learning the finer details.

Realizing you are in a Lisp machine. A calculator is no further than your Emacs window. Learning to hack Lisp and elisp is its own reward.

I think the time spent learning it is worth it. I think the math checks out in terms of efficiency. I also know Emacs is not going anywhere. Same with Vi.

There is much more to it all, but these are things off the top of my head. There are many smaller things that connect up how I work via Emacs... But there is a lot to it.

<comment><USER3> I love Emacs. But there were no good multimodes 3 years ago. And autocompletion and hints are often a bitch to get working on things which are not C or C++.

The moment you start editing files containing more than one language you're pushed to use a dedicated IDE. And then you discover the joy of "good enough". No need to tinker with config files to get the perfect setup: it works good enough to give you a productivity boost out of the box.

<comment><USER4> I came to the same realization about Vim about a year ago. I've used Sublime and Vim/Nvim extensively, and I've spent at least a few hours in Textmate, Emacs, Spacemacs, Notepad++, VS Code, and Atom as well.

All of those text editors above have some excellent and unique redeeming qualities. But at the end of the day their actual language support tends to be weak.

Now I do Python work in Pycharm, R work in Rstudio, and SQL work in whatever IDE goes with my database engine. I use Nvim as my system $EDITOR but at work I'm using it less and less often. I love it and I'll never give it up, but it's becoming more of a hobby tool than something that helps me get things done.

<comment><USER5> I'm hopeful that [https://github.com/Microsoft/language-server- protocol](https://github.com/Microsoft/language-server-protocol) will decouple some of these concerns. We've built support for it for our DSL, and it's pretty great so far (esp in VSCode). Emacs LSP support is still pretty slow, so I don't use it when in emacs at present, but it feels like the right direction for getting good language support into editors.

<comment><USER6> LSP seriously gives me hope for the future. It is an awesome project, and I'm looking forward to seeing more widespread editor support for it.

It's still fairly new so most solutions I've seen that use it still have some sharp edges.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The first time I got introduced to Emacs, I hated it. Who would like to read email inside a text editor with non-standard keybindings?

I got it all wrong. It's not an editor, it's a text-mode virtual Lisp machine.

The Emacs ecosystem has matured a lot lately. It has two applications I adore. Org, something impossible to describe in a few words, and Magit, the perfect Git porcelain.

Plus it has 3 pretty darn good email clients (Notmuch, Gnus and Mu4e). And some great extras: Dired, Calc, Eshell, Erc, PDF Tools...

Everything is really well integrated. And if something doesn't suit your needs, changing it is a few ELisp lines away.

My computer setup has become very simple: a tiling WM (XMonad), Emacs, Firefox, and a terminal (Urxvt).

<comment><USER8> I also hated emacs when I first tried it, but once I started moving past my first programming language, I found myself sifting 30 IDEs and decided to give it an honest shot.

I don't use it for much else than programming, so my must-haves are for that purpose. Just the various built-in interpreters make it worth the price of learning.

<comment><USER9> However nowadays IDE like Intellij Ultimate give good to best in class support for basically all mainstream languages.

I'm an emacs user (in case it matters).

<comment><USER10> Some IDEs may offer better language-specific features than the community- supported emacs modes, however I haven't found an IDE that actually does the editing (and displaying) of text as well as emacs.

In particular all the little modes that try to emulate emacs functionality (simple things like rainbow-delimiters or slightly more complex things like undo-tree-mode) are always broken in subtle ways in the "modern" applications. Not to mention all the text navigation features: ace-jump & friends, helm- swoop, etc...!

I guess a large part of this is that emacs has had 40 years to mature and that it was originally written at a time where software was judged on different criteria than it is today.

<comment><USER11> I find that on balance, most of those language-specific features are the ones that matter most to me, and provide the best value wrt. my time (and finished product).

Comparatively, the text editing power of vim/emacs, while nice, just doesn't provide that much value to me anymore, *most of the time.

That being said, it varies by language. If I were working in C, I'd probably use emacs. Working in Go, I still do use emacs (the side effect of the language's simplicity is that solid tooling is a snap to integrate in both vim and emacs). Java or scala? Not a chance in hell I'm going to do anything serious with those two in vim/emacs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I only really enjoyed Emacs once I learned some ELisp (I think I had tried is 2 or 3 times before that). Honestly I find these guides pretty useless b/c you can copy configs and hack together something without really understanding what you're doing but you'll eventually end up extremely frustrated and unable to work around the quirks and conflicts between configurations.

I know the people behind Emacs like to think the system as usable out-of-the- box but I think selling it like that is ultimately a disservice b/c people end up underwhelmed and frustrated - never taking the time to learn ELisp. (the Emacs intro/tutorial is just a "welcome to this nano with annoying keybindings") I actually would challenge anyone to find someone who loves emacs and doesn't know a bit of ELisp :)

Ultimately ELisp is really not _that_ much work to learn - but the root issue seems to me that ELisp isn't really a general purpose programming language and who wants to invest in learning a language you can't use outside of your editor? It's basically a DSL for a managing text and buffers.. It'd be way sexier to learn if it was a Racket or something

I also wrote a little annotated config intro (these are kinda more personal notes for my org/git/C++ workflow). It's a little terse and to the point and isn't trying to sell Emacs, but unlike most guides I tried to document what each lines in the config really means and help the reader learn how Emacs helps you discover more of Elisp as you go. [https://geokon- gh.github.io/.emacs.d/](https://geokon-gh.github.io/.emacs.d/) Maybe someone will find it useful! (I'm by no means an emacs expert or Lisp guru.. so if there are problems, let me know please :) )

<comment><USER13> Back in the day our teaching assistance got pissed off that most people were using Emacs as if it was Notepad, and spent the rest of the programming lecture teaching how to use Emacs instead (about 1h).

Which then became my to go editor in UNIX systems, until IDEs finally became a thing on UNIX.

<comment><USER14> I'm especially saddened when I see a lisp/clojure talk where the user navigate through emacs using arrows and the likes.

A lisper not leveraging sexp ala paredit/parinfer is odd.

<comment><USER15> Common Lisp is my main language outside work (and I manage to use it for work now and then as well) and I use it with Emacs + Slime. I've been trying to get into Paredit and similar modes but they just annoy the fsck out of me.

Mind, I do use Evil so I'm getting some 'structured editing'-lite from that already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Author here. In reading this thread, I'm struck that most of the objections to emacs are both legitimate (as are the arguments for it) and focused on programmer-specific issues. Back when I wrote the original post, I was experimenting with using emacs as a CEO who writes little code these days, but was dealing with a maelstrom of disparate information and interruption. It's been a very successful experiment, which I'll document in a follow up post soon. Glad that it got some good conversations going!

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm mostly a C developer that spend most of my time inside Emacs.

I use ivy-mode instead of ido-mode, and avy instead of ace-jump. My setup includes yasnippet, flycheck, company, and ggtags mostly.

I have issues using the number keys. So I use a custom vi like mode, but heavily customized: Pressing spacebar results in "_" ("-" in #include), but intelligently. Double space results in "->", ".." results in (|) (where | is the cursor or point) and ",," results in "=".

Pressing spacebar after "(" results in "&", then "*" (also "!" if just after "if" or "while"). And my capslock key is just another control key.

All the examples above are to be assumed without quotes.

<comment><USER17> Just curious.. How do you type-in whitespace?

<comment><USER16> spacebar results in "_" only when the cursor is immediately after [a-zA-Z0-9_]. And if I really need space, I have Shift-Space. Also, pressing spacebar after a keyword (like char, int, if, else, etc) results in real space.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It took me a few years to undertand this, but Emacs is not really a text editor. It is a development and runtime environment for a programming language that is especially useful for building text editors - and more generally, text-related, interactive programs -, and it happens to come bundled with a variety of such programs. But there are many, many more to discover out there on the Internet. In fact, in recent versions, this, too has gotten easier, since Emacs now comes with a package manager. But it can also be an IRC client, an audio player, a web browser, a database frontend, ... the possibilities are practically endless.

And this is why I love Emacs. There are other editors out there that are good, too. Very good. But to me, Emacs takes the prize because it is so much more than an editor.

<comment><USER19> Always seemed to me less a text editor and more the intended user interface after rms and his gang of misfit lads finished herding up all the daemons into the eventual (past my expiration date) GNU/HURD. Turns out it was a Lisp machine all along!

That said, I too have developed a renewed appreciation for Emacs these past few years.

<comment><USER18> > Turns out it was a Lisp machine all along!

Hehe, in retrospect it is so obvious, but I really did not see that coming.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The tripping block that always gets me out of the emacs flow is integrating org-mode with things my co-workers use to communicate (lately that's and Asana, Jira, and Quip, tomorrow who knows, it's hard for me to dictate choice of issue trackers or wiki based on what integrates with my admittedly nutso setup).

Even if I were to get everything working, then if I were to ever switch jobs suddenly I'm back at square one again.

Emacs and org-mode are perfect, _if_ you don't have to collaborate with anybody.

<comment><USER21> I once shared an office with another happy user of Emacs and org-mode. We did a small project together and used an org file to manage the project tasks inside the source repo. Even that did not work out so well, because I would also see his tasks on my agenda. I guess this could be improved with tags and filters, but my point is that collaboration with org-mode is difficult beyond the issue of agreeing on the same tool to use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I started off with Emacs and a month a later tried Vi. I found Vi to be a better fit for me than Emacs and haven't looked back since. I have huge respect for both editors, they both are much older than me :) I wish I could write something that people would find useful for years to come. Having said that, I love to jab(friendly) at Emacs users in my circle of friends and colleagues. Makes the conversation even more colourful with a bit of booze inside ;)

<comment><USER23> Are you using vi or vim? Have you tried emacs with evil?

<comment><USER22> Now, Vim. But I would definitely like to give Emacs another try, just for kicks. Do you think emacs with evil is the path with least resistance for a long term Vi/Vim user?

<comment><USER24> I've been a daily vim user for the past 10 or so years and used it casually before that. Anytime I tried to use emacs I missed the modal aspects of vim and my wrists didn't like the focus around ctrl in emacs.

I recently gave spacemacs a try and it's been my daily editor for the past few months. There is a lot to learn, but spacemacs solves the main pain points I had with off the shelf emacs and I've found it to be very productive for me.

<comment><USER5> Author of post here. I have no agenda to convert anyone, but mapping caps lock to control is a good move when trying emacs IMO. If you love vi(m), more power to you!

<comment><USER24> Oh, yeah I use that mapping (caps to ctrl), but emacs would still always hurt my wrists! I prefer having visual/insert/normal modes and spacebar for modifiers in spacemacs. It's the best of both worlds for me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> In addition to all the other things mentioned (helm, projectile, magit, org), I've found org-ref and interleave great for managing my notes when I read papers or articles. Roughly, I save the PDF to disk and create an org node for it, then add the metadata like file location and bibtex info. Then I have emacs open the PDF and as I'm reading it I can press 'i' to open a note on that page, and then close the note and keep reading.

<comment><USER21> Very nice. I don't read PDF in Emacs, but I also use an org file for notes, with references to the file and a bibtex file. When I use org-mode to author articles, the references used are multi-purpose: from Emacs, they link to my notes, but when translated to LaTeX, they become citations. See:

[https://github.com/leethargo/etc/blob/master/emacs/.emacs.d/...](https://github.com/leethargo/etc/blob/master/emacs/.emacs.d/lisp/init_literature.el)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> "You can recognize emacs by the 'mode line' near the bottom of the screen. If you see anybody using it, fire them immediately - they may be a good programmer but they're going to cause more trouble than they are worth."

<comment><USER27> Funny. Where's it from?

<comment><USER26> I made it up

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is a great article, not least because of the tangential comments (e.g. that impact test of bicycle-style tubing was weirdly fascinating). All that's said about Emacs is true. I loved it for decades. And then my hand started cramping up because of the key chords. So I tried vim, and hated it for a few days, disliked it for a few more, and then started to like it. I'd never go back, now. Vim is certainly not as powerful as Emacs, and its macro language is disgusting, but for everyday work it's fine. And I really like Vim's "grammar" approach to describing complex actions, which makes semi-complex tasks into puzzles and not memory exercises. (For really complex tasks, though, there's nothing quite so wonderful as Emacs with elisp ... so this comment may say more about the work I'm doing lately than these two editors.)

<comment><USER29> Check out spacemacs, which is a distribution of emacs that adapts the entire interface to use vim's approach. It's incredible. [http://spacemacs.org/](http://spacemacs.org/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> If you write a small pre-processor (simple to do) you can store your emacs configuration file in a markdown file - allowing you to document all the settings neatly.

As I was reading this piece I was imagining that is what the author had done, as it is what I did too:

[https://github.com/skx/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/init.md](https://github.com/skx/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/init.md)

<comment><USER5> Author here. I didn't, but I might now. Dig this.

<comment><USER31> Hi there. Thanks for the article. I'm a newbie when it comes to emacs config files. You said, that we will put (add-to-list 'load-path "~/.emacs.d/lisp/") in the .emacs file, but that was before we had created it. Then a few paragraphs later, when we finally do create it, you tell us to just put in

;; set up ido mode (require `ido) (setq ido-enable-flex-matching t) (setq ido- everywhere t) (ido-mode 1)

Where do we put in (add-to-list 'load-path "~/.emacs.d/lisp/") ?

<comment><USER5> Disclaimer: I spend very little time configuring emacs these days, as it's working well for me, and there are others around who are much better at emacs than I am. There are likely better ways to do everything than I have, but I shared what works for me.

I've got the `(add-to-list 'load-path "~/.emacs.d/lisp/")` pretty early in the file. You can put the `(require `ido) (setq ido-enable-flex-matching t) (setq ido-everywhere t) (ido-mode 1)` where you like. Basically, you just need the lines in your .emacs file - if you add the reference prior to creating the directory and populating it, you'll get an error, but nothing will break. Add the directory and do a `M-x eval-buffer` and it'll pick it up without restarting emacs. Or just restart emacs. Hope this helps. Someone will tell you a better way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088)

</comment><comment><USER33> The pyramids were built with emacs. Everything else is drywall to me now. More work? Yes. Worth it though.

I like to say gnu+emacs is my OS, and linux is simply my kernel.

Org-mode alone would be worth it.

<comment><USER34> Emacs may need to be renamed to stEmacs, sixteen megs and constantly swapping. It's no longer 8 megs. :(

<comment><USER33> If you want tiny gnu editor, just use nano. They fixed the file corruption bug right?

<comment><USER16> There is also GNU zile and zemacs[0].

[0] [https://www.gnu.org/software/zile/](https://www.gnu.org/software/zile/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Seems like lots of people here are sharing their experience with #emacs. I like it a lot, and think that it would be part of the ideal #workingset for me. However, I have never found a nice 'jump-to-definition that worked for most languages I edit on emacs. I tried ggtags, ctags, pygments. I think I had trouble setting all of these up, and they would not work for many languages I was using. I have not found a good resource on how to get a nice 'jump-to- definition set-up, and did look within the last 6 months. Maybe something new popped up?

Edit: I think I had trouble with Javascript, React and/or Ruby.

<comment><USER36> You could give Dumb Jump a shot: [https://github.com/jacktasia/dumb- jump](https://github.com/jacktasia/dumb-jump)

<comment><USER37> I have been using dumb-jump with some R packages recently and I'm happy to report that it works very well!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Has anyone got any experience using Emacs with one of those mail tools and gmail with 2FA? I started playing with notmuch half-heartedly but it seemed to expect a local mail store, which is fine but I found myself bouncing between setup instructions for several different tools and I quickly gave up.

I would like to get it working; Apple Mail client is a bit slow on my laptop with a high volume, and I'm all about plaintext and keyboards. I'd happily use Emacs.

<comment><USER39> I gave up on notmuch for the same reason, it won't just fetch mail over imap. I use gnus now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Has anybody quantified the efficiency gains from using emacs to do work rather than conventional means? Are there certain areas (e.g. Mail, todo, notes,calendar,scheduling) that gains more efficiency than others?

<comment><USER41> I don't think it would be easy to quantify the gains from Emacs because it's too specific to the user. For me, it's all about automation. If I notice myself doing something that can be automated multiple times, I write a function. If I find myself calling that function frequently, I turn it into a keyboard shortcut. That's a huge win, because it eliminates a lot of work I hate to do, but it's very specific to the user.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I use org-mode and emacs (spacemacs) extensively at my job. I start my day by creating org-mode headers as todos, breaking down the tasks that I think will take longer than an hour, and later taking notes in outline mode as I do the tasks. I like planning a few days and checking in with my manager that I'm focusing my energy on the right things. I also use it to take excellent meeting notes and turn those notes into actionable tasks. People are impressed with my nicely formatted word docs that are just org files exported using pandoc.

</comment><comment><USER43> When I tried emacs a few years ago I found the learning curve to be far more steep than vim at the time. After trying out [https://vim- adventures.com/](https://vim-adventures.com/) (no affiliation, just thought it was useful) I learned it in about 15 minutes.

Is there any equivalent for emacs? I'd love to get it another shot.

<comment><USER44> If you know vim keybindings you can already use emacs with evil. Just install spacemacs and off you go.

<comment><USER23> To be fair, evil and spacemacs will only get you vim-like keybindings (which is all that vim-adventures gives you too), but there's a lot more to both editors than just keybindings.

There's even more to emacs than to vim, if you start using emacs for more than just editing, doing things that have no equivalent in vim (like reading email, browsing the web, using IRC, or reading RSS news feeds, etc). For every one of these extra things, there's new stuff to learn, and more time to spend configuring emacs first to just work with those things and then to customize it the way you like.

For me the time investment is well worth it, but there's no denying that it takes a lot of time. A lot of time.

<comment><USER44> The parent question was 15min quick start to emacs, not learn niche usage like reading email, irc etc. You can use spacemacs for a lot of languages with good support, if you are only familiar with vim keybindings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> > A 1933 steel bicycle that I still ride.

That's an old bike.

</comment><comment><USER46> > ... I also set Emacs to full screen. I'd like to do this on Windows as well, > but Windows and Emacs don't really love each other and it always ends up in > some wonky state when I try this

      (add-to-list 'default-frame-alist '(fullscreen . maximized))

Seems to work fine for me

[https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/3008](https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/3008)

<comment><USER47> I use a nice plugin called maxframe, which apart from resizing the frame after a while and not when it's first displayed is not "wonky". I have yet to try multiple frames on multiple screens.

Salient code:

(defun w32-maximize-frame () "Maximize the current frame (windows only)" (interactive) (w32-send-sys-command 61488))

(defun w32-restore-frame () "Restore a minimized/maximized frame (windows only)" (interactive) (w32-send-sys-command 61728))

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I use ivy instead of helm and ido (tried both of them). Swiper and counsel are awesome for text search. company, rtags, anaconda are awesome for autocompletion and code navigation in C++ and Python. I use projectile for project management. gud is not very useful for running a debugger, so I use realgud which is much nicer.

Viva Emacs!

<comment><USER48> rtags works with CMake and is the only working intelligent completion system in Emacs I found over the years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> personally this article would work way better for me with a set of animated gifs instead of turning into a wall of text. And I'd love to see his workflows for what he puts in his different orgs to help with context switching. as I get more senior I'm switching tasks even more and more.

<comment><USER5> Author of blog post here. I take your point on being more accessible, and you're right about the wall of text. I didn't think anyone would care about my little paen to emacs, and this is one evening's work from a couple years ago.

Regarding organization, I don't have much of a system, other than the filesystem under ~/org with a handful of directories. Works just fine for me. It's more about not-caring than caring, regarding organization of information. We really shouldn't have to organize this stuff. Emacs + org-mode allows me to not care. I love that.

<comment><USER50> In case you did not know about this tool: [https://asciinema.org/](https://asciinema.org/) is a very pretty way to create gif-like presentations from terminal sessions.

No affiliation, I just think it's really neat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Would you advise me to get a try to EMACS? i mostly program in python (django), using docker, kubernetes and so on. I'm using an IDE.

On server i use vim (took me a while to understand the commands, but now i found it insanely clever on some comands)

<comment><USER2> Maybe. But if you are using PyCharm it will be hard to get used to Emacs. It takes a while to get to a place where Emacs makes more sense than a good IDE. PyCharm is very good at what it does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Does anyone use it to type in languages that require an IME or specialized keyboard usage? I tried Emacs a while ago, but I was disappointed I couldn't use my normal OS functionality for typing Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.

</comment><comment><USER53> I primarily use vim for writing code. While I use a lot of standard plugins, I find many things that is not correct with them. I know it's kind of a subjective question, but is moving to spacemacs worth it? Any experiences?

</comment><comment><USER54> > I keep my calendar, email, etc., on > another desktop in OS X, which is > hidden > while I'm in Emacs,

Meh. To use his bicycle analogy, this is like someone putting Campagnolo components on a Trek CF frame.

</comment><comment><USER55> Emacs is like Chinese to me, and truthfully to most developers I know. Is there a gentle intro somewhere? Most of what I've seen is just people throwing out package names with no real explanation.

<comment><USER56> If you try it, swap your caps lock and CTRL keys. It will make it much easier to use.

Also have a look at this blog post. [https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective- emacs](https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs)

<comment><USER57> If you don't try it, consider swapping control and caps lock too. Most people use control way more, but caps lock has the superior position on the keyboard. That is, the home row, where your pinky is naturally while resting your index fingers on F and J.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Prior discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10642088)

</comment><comment><USER59> I did not know about ido-mode, it always surprises me how much I can find new stuff in emacs every week!

<comment><USER60> ido-mode is pretty well known. ido-vertical-mode is less well known but very useful.

<comment><USER61> My only complaint about ido-vertical-mode is that it seems to be _very_ slow for long lists. This is why I'm looking for an alternative. I tried helm and ivy, but both of them behave frustratingly differently compared to ido.

<comment><USER61> I'm now using ivy-mode again. It's much faster and the annoying differences in behaviour (e.g. only "g l" will match "guile" but "gl" will not; double TAB in find-files opens dired; etc) are actually acceptable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> I've never been able to get into graphical emacs, but emacs-nox has been my terminal editor of choice since college. Coming from a Windows background, vi(m) was too weird to get used to.

<comment><USER63> I currently use Sublime Text 3, but I used to use Vim and NeoVim. One complaint I have with Sublime Text 3 is that many of the keybindings are "chords," and I seem to be developing pains in my wrists and elbows from frequently typing the more awkward ones. I've heard Emacs uses similar, chorded keybindings, only to the extreme. I think the problem with ST3 is that many of the chords are awkward to type. How is Emacs? Are the chords more natural, or would I be facing similar issues with chording?

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Emacs and the Atreus keyboard and xmonad etc. are white elephants.

<comment><USER63> My experience with an Atreus was quite different. The hand positions were comfortable with the tilted, split sides of the keyboard. Using my thumbs for both Space and Enter was also nice. I especially liked the straight, vertical columns of the keyboard. They made touch typing much easier and faster than on a regular keyboard with offset rows. Overall, the Atreus was beneficial to my typing speed and also to my wrists, elbows, and back, since it helped align my body in a more natural typing position. What aspect of the Atreus keyboard do you feel renders it a white elephant?

<comment><USER60> Wow I'm an idiot. I completely forgot about the other (mainstream) definition of White Elephant. I was only thinking of the one that I learned in college. Total brain fart, and now my comment above looks like an insult when it was never meant to be one. I meant they're luxuries that I appreciate having but could easily live without.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Emacs is great, but is nearing its end. The package ecosystem is too fragile and lack of any kind of support leads to constant breaking and having to dig through elisp code/config at inopportune times.

Core tools like a text editor need to be rock solid and depending on volunteer packages is generally not going to cut it vs. paying a small amount towards a supported product.

Full disclosure I recently gave up on Emacs/Spacemacs after several years of using it for Python development (use Pycharm now), Org-mode (Use taskwarrior), and Magit (just use git + some aliases).</comment>


Ask HN: What type of consulting do you do? Advice for a generalist? - <AUTHOR>

Hey guys
I'm trying to transition out of a regular day job into consulting work so that I can better free up time and money to bootstrap a product. Being trapped in someone else's office all day is getting old.
In trying to get going with some clients and a regular stream of work I realize that I'm much more a generalist than a specialist and haven't got a great idea of how to pitch my skills or where the demand is.
On HN, when people say 'consulting' they seem to mostly mean web development. I'm more of a software guy but can certainly do web.
Web seems like a path of least resistance because people often realize they need a new website and go looking for someone to do it.
For other tasks, they may not realize they have a problem or what the solution looks like perhaps. It is usually less defined perhaps. Do people agree?
So my question is, what types of consulting do you guys do? Where do you think the demand is? Is it mostly web development?
I'd set up a poll but I'm not sure what all the fields would be :)
Cheers! <comment><USER2> Either go your own way through free lancing websites, craigslist etc or you can team up with an existing ad agency to pickup their overflow work. Quote prices that make you feel good about doing the work versus how many hours it might take you because the variety varies so much you'll be giving estimates for something you may have never done before. Before long you'll have more work than you can handle and you're price and confidence can increase to manage your work load and time better.

I like working with other agencies better than seeking clients for direct sales better personally. Seek out overflow work from local companies so you can have face to face meetings from time to time.

This works great for me but I don't do it full time, it's just to keep the development spice in my life.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm terribly disappointed no one is replying to this, as I am also curious about this topic. I don't have any experience consulting, but I'm thinking about it, and may turn to it in the future.

On that note, my thought is that not unlike you, small to medium size businesses don't really know where to begin to establish their online presence. Perhaps there is some value in consulting with companies to establish an online marketing plan, then connecting them with companies who will do the web design, social media work, etc. Does anyone do that sort of thing?</comment>


Ask HN: How would you price an iPhone app? - <AUTHOR>

I have an iPhone app releasing this month. It is a utility app. Amidst all the free apps, stupid apps, etc., how would you price it?
Objectively (hard to do), I asked myself what price I would be willing to pay but that seemed too high.
I've read all the pricing discussions surrounding iPhone apps but they haven't helped. <comment><USER2> Well, between $.99 and $9.99 is a good starting point, because thats where almost all iPhone apps are priced. Then, you can look at your competitors, and find their range of pricing. I'd be priced comparably, if you offer similar features. I'd also opine that its much easier to raise your prices than it is to lower them.

So pick a price, and if you make a comfortable amount of money, keep it. If you make a ton of money, raise it, and if you make little money and people complain all the other apps are better alternatives than yours, then build a better app.

</comment><comment><USER3> If it's really useful I'd say no less then 3.99 and no more then 5.99, so I'm thinking 4.99</comment>


Show HN: Vadlue a social ad search engine - <AUTHOR> http://www.vadlue.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Dear HN hackers, would like to hear your constructive or negative feedback and suggestions about our startup idea Vadlue at <http://www.vadlue.com/>.

Ads are everywhere yet mostly impossible to interact with, except clicking. Ads only appear to you, when automatic bidding algorithms want you to see them. Vadlue wants users to be able to search, browse, share and review ads. Vadlue indexes ads and landing pages, publicized by Robads standards <http://www.robads.org/> or shared through browser extensions.

1\. We have 2 extremes going ahead, to be an Anti-Google, an ad search engine that also indexes landing pages or to be a Pinterest like social platform for ads. What do you think would make better sense for our idea?

2\. Any ideas on getting traction?

<comment><USER2> Good luck. You might have a pretty steep hill to climb with this one. In my experience, users consider ads to be the antithesis of content ... for the most part, they don't want to interact with ads at all, much less choose to interact _more_.

Also you appear to have an issue in your templates where divs and links aren't nesting properly, like

instead of

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks a lot for both feedbacks, especially the anti-content remark.

<comment><USER2> That's the reason viral marketing even exists, to present advertising to users in a way that doesn't carry the stigma of being advertising. It looks like you're wanting to do the opposite.

If you can figure out a way to accomplish the same trick with banner ads, and get people to treat overt advertising as something fun, and actually generate revenue, the world will beat a path to your door as they say.</comment></comment></comment></comment>