Physical assault by McDonald's for wearing Digital Eye Glass - <AUTHOR> http://eyetap.org/mcdonalds/ <comment><USER3> No one at an ordinary McDonald's would even notice such a device. Ergo this was not an ordinary McDonald's, but one with security people looking for cameras. Why would a McDonald's have security people looking for cameras? Possibly because it was a mafia front. If you wanted to launder money, a fast food restaurant in a popular location would be a good place to do it.

The way the employees behaved is consistent with this explanation.

Edit: I should have said no more than that the excessive reaction of the security people suggests there may be something dubious happening at this McDonald's that they don't want filmed. But there are other less dramatic things they might be doing besides money laundering: using undocumented labor, for example.

<comment><USER4> Without further information I find this very hard to believe.

Laundering money through a fast food restaurant with a supply chain outside your control is a terrible idea. Franchises are required to purchase food centrally.

Q How much cash are you banking this week?

A 1,000,000 EUR

Q So you have sold 500,000 Big Macs.

A Yes

Q Can I see your invoices for 500,000 buns please?

The profit margin is not high enough for it to be worth ordering extra stock and throwing it out. The business would effectively be paying about 70% tax. That's not digestable, even to launder cash.

More plausible reasons: Running a McDonalds franchise and significantly and systematically under-reporting revenue using unauthorised suppliers. But to involve low-level staff would seem unlikely.

This isn't exactly covert surveillance. Some bored member of staff just didn't like the look of this American weirdo with a video camera for an eye, a piece of paper that he waves around and an attitude that he is entitled to buffer everything he sees anywhere in the world and then publicly blame an entire multinational for a minor, local incident. (Not my perception, but I think it likely that it was theirs.)

<comment><USER5> Whether it's money laundering or underreporting revenues, the implication is that something is awry at this McDonalds. The author is probably doing McDonald's Corp. a service by contacting them. They should address it, immediately.

<comment><USER6> Precisely. You could also put a kilo of cocaine into a cane or walker. Yet, assaulting every older/disabled person using such would be downright criminal.

<comment><USER7> Assaulting anybody _is_ downright criminal in most jurisdictions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Complain to the Olympic board as McDonalds are a sponsor of the Olympics and the Para-Olympics.

In parallel write/email to the newspapers etc.

Also talk to your embassy who can advise how to proceed in other ways.

You have a vision problem and need a visual aid to combat that disability. McDonalds not only commited assualt but also did it systematicaly and premeditated way indicating they are not a suitable sponsor for the para- Olympics.

If they won't deal with this issue responsibly, then sod em and shame them as publicly and in as many ways as possible; you have done nothing wrong, nothing and they are all to blame so shame them.

Also few links on FB and twitter with liberal abuse of #mcdonalds #imlovinit #mcd and the like will soon garner this issue the attention it needs and deserves.

You could see a lawyer, but it's hard to find one who can deal with this. I'd go the press/PR route (then a good lawyer will come to you) as your doing but with a few nationals who will happily run this story. Now is a good time given there large marketing event called the Olympics, leverage this time and educate McDonalds.

Last time I went to McDonalds security told me the toilets were for customers only too which I pointed out that in a civilised World we wash our hands before we handle our food and I had no desire to take my food into the toilet or leave it unattended as I had no confidence on the security being able to saftly protect my food/possesions. He appologised and I left to eat elsewere.

<comment><USER9> Drifitng off topic, but the Paralympics are already sponsored by ATOS, the company the UK government has put in charge of taking social security from the genuinely disabled.

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/21/paralympic- games...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/21/paralympic-games- organisers-defend-atos-sponsorship)

<comment><USER10> > social security from the genuinely disabled

And what might that percentage be? Seeing a number of moochers feigning disability for unearned dole outs, is surely the most common disgust of our times.

And if one is disabled, they should not expect to be given free handouts from money forced out at gunpoint. They need care and consideration and all volunteer help they can get.

Its time to realize that Government should be the institution for one thing and one only. Protection of individual freedom. And nothing else.

<comment><USER11> Internet libertarians are adorable.

<comment><USER10> Thank you, and is that the only comment you have on the topic? Say, what is your philosophical stand on this?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I find it really hard to believe that Steve Mann would have some kind of medical condition that would lead a normal Dr. to prescribe that Steve Mann wears the computer vision glasses that Steve Mann invented.

I'm sorry he was harassed, but this story really smells of one of the oldest ways to gain media attention on the internet:

Step 1: Get screwed by a big company (this is the easy part) Step 2: Write a blog article documenting how you got screwed Step 3: Submit story to slashdot, digg, reddit, etc.

Keep in mind people, before you start blowing up about this "injustice" that we're only hearing one side of the story. And frankly, I'm of the opinion that cases of assault are _better_ handled by police and courtrooms than blogs and internet mobs.

Also, the fact that the retribution Steve Mann is demanding, is that _McDonald's_ repairs the glasses that Steve Mann invented is, well, a fantasy to say the least.

<comment><USER13> What I don't understand why clearly things have been manually blacked out (or whited out in this case). Why not show their face?

I agree this story smells in a dozen different ways. Rather than the mafia I'm wondering if Steve Mann is perhaps seeking to establish some documentation in order to assert IP rights against a very wealthy company which has made very public announcements about glasses that augment your vision and take pictures of what you see.

For that reason I think we'll see more on this story.

<comment><USER14> > …I'm wondering if Steve Mann is perhaps seeking to establish some > documentation in order to assert IP rights…

This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this page yet.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann>

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Aeyeta...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Aeyetap.org%2Fpublications%2Findex.html&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

<comment><USER13> Your argument is that because Dr. Mann is an academic he wouldn't sue Google? On the contrary for someone who has put as much of his life into augmented reality, to see Google Glass hit the press where essentially this giant $250B company is going to change the world with _his ideas_? Especially where he is the sole inventor and assignee?

I don't know about you but that movie has played out so many times as to be cliche. Generally the professor's college is the one doing the suing as they get assignment rights to research but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

I'll be the first to admit I'm awfully cynical about patents these days, and I sure as hell know that if some patent litigator saw Mann's patent he would ask Dr. Mann if he was being compensated by Google. If not that same litigator would probably have a moment of giddyness as he offers to get him that compensation. Could be a big payday, and money is a powerful motivator.

I'll take it all back if Mann says that Google has already licensed the patent. Otherwise my bet is on the legal sharks.

<comment><USER15> Jeez man, anybody who has anything to do with wearable computing these days knows all about Mann's work. I'm sure the Google Glasses people know all about it too; I'd be shocked if they did not. He's just too well known. Stop tilting at windmills.

Here's some background reading: [http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/26/2986317/google-project- gla...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/26/2986317/google-project-glass- wearable-computers-disappoint-me)

<comment><USER13> If your employer allows it, browse the US patent office [1]. That is a search for 'google' and 'glasses' in any patent application. Then go to the link the US PTO maintains which cites references to Dr. Mann's patent [2]. Of the 34 patents that reference Dr. Mann's work, _not a single one_ is a Google patent associated with Google Glass.

So while "anybody who has anything to do with wearable computing" knows about Dr. Mann's work, apparently those same people at Google seemed to have missed that connection when the started filing patents about wearable displays.

So, I agree with you. Everybody working with wearable computing _should_ know about Dr. Mann's work. And anyone putting out a 'revolutionary product' which looks strikingly similar to the Eyetap product would, acknowledge that debt and perhaps show how they learned from what had gone before.

So if you're right, then I'm right too.

[1] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sec...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=glasses&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=google&FIELD2=&d=PTXT)

[2] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sec...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch- adv.htm&r=0&f=S&l=50&d=PALL&Query=ref/6614408)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Wow, sorry to hear about the assault and damage to your property. That is quite a way to wreck an otherwise pleasant vacation. I will say that I am glad to hear that I am not the only one to have been treated in a rather hostile manner at a McDonald's in Paris. My wife and I went there on vacation a few years back. My wife was filming my clumsy handling of the french language as she made me order (she is actually quite good at french) and an "employee" took her camera, shoved us out of the restaurant and then smashed our camera on the side walk. I'm not sure what they think they are hiding.

<comment><USER17> There must be something in the water there because we had eggs thrown at us from an upper floor apartment walking down some sidewalk in Paris (I guess our speaking English to one another was offensive?). We always spoke French when interacting with francophones. Visiting the more rural places in France was pleasant though, and the people were more friendly.

<comment><USER18> Parisians are famed for their rudeness. Whether that is fair I cannot judge, when I went there we didn't seem to have any problems!

<comment><USER19> Except for one rude shopkeeper, everyone I met in France was nice.

<comment><USER16> Were you in Paris? Seriously, we had no problems anywhere else we went. It was just Paris. We visited Nice, Lyons, and Toulouse on our trip and had lots more fun in those places.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a really disturbing story. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

Anyway, there has been a trend recently with regular HN'er saying that people should stop using HN as a way to get justice. "HN is not your mommy".

I strongly believe that this is exactly the time that HN should step up, upvote this story, and ensure to it that a guy who creates the technology he wears see's some kind of justice.

<comment><USER21> I'm the person who wrote the "HN is not your mommy" comment, and I'd like to take a moment to clarify a bit what I was trying to say with that.

Most importantly, I definitely wasn't decrying _all_ instances of people bringing a situation that has gone some flavor of shitty to the attention of HN. In fact, it's in no small part the fact that the HN community is so willing to help one another out that keeps me here — particularly among the alumni, but I think their conduct just sets the example for the rest of us.

That said, I've started to feel a few times lately like that willingness to be helpful is being taken advantage of — or at least people are trying to do so. The "I didn't win the contest! Waaaah!" was just the most egregious example I'd seen in some time, and I felt the need to call it out. Given that it was the highest rated comment I've ever posted on HN, I'm clearly not alone in that.

This situation isn't remotely the same. This is a clear-cut case of ignorant idiocy escalating into physical assault, and the louder and more forcefully the fact that _that kind of thing is fucking wrong_ gets shoved in McD's face, the better.

<comment><USER22> Do you have a link to the I didn't win the contest article?

<comment><USER23> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4220156>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Coming from Steve Mann, I'm a little bit hesitant to take this story at face value.

A while back, he had a run in with airport security about his equipment: [http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/14/technology/circuits/14MANN...](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/14/technology/circuits/14MANN.html)

While I don't deny that the security guards could have acted more respectfully, it seems like Steve went out of his way to put himself in a situation that he knew would be problematic. Why couldn't he have removed the equipment before returning to the airport? Also, some of his claims seemed exaggerated, like that his equipment couldn't be x-rayed or that he became disoriented in the airport with having his wearable computer.

If he's looking to make a point about cyborg rights, fair enough, but my opinion of him is that he doesn't come into these situations with an attitude that avoids misunderstandings. I think that another person in this same situation would have at least been able to communicate with the McDonald's staff and determine what the problem was.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think they were not afraid of terrorism or cops but rather journalist.

This past few years several documentaries showed how bad hygien can be in some french restaurant (fast-food or not) wich in the worst case led to the death of customers. [http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/quick-d-avignon- benjam...](http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/quick-d-avignon- benjamin-14-ans-est-bien-mort-intoxique-18-02-2011-1321649.php)

One of this documentary was involving macdonald but was only broadcast on the internet once it was leaked cause the channel didn't want to lose one of the biggest advertiser. [http://www.slate.fr/story/19421/mcdo-kfc-le-reportage- censur...](http://www.slate.fr/story/19421/mcdo-kfc-le-reportage-censure- de-m6-reapparait)

So i would bet they were afraid of bad publicity ... Oh the sweet taste of irony

</comment><comment><USER26> _"when the computer is damaged, e.g. by falling and hitting the ground (or by a physical assault), buffered pictures for processing remain in its memory, and are not overwritten with new ones"_

This sounds bogus. The stills presented in the post suggests they were taken by design rather than some random stills "remaining in memory" after the alleged assault.

There are frames from earlier in his McDonald's visit that it would not make sense to still exist in memory for "processing". I'm not questioning the alleged events, but wondering why he would give such an unlikely explanation of the existence of these stills? Is it illegal to video in a retail establishment in France?

<comment><USER27> What he is trying to explain is that he is NOT making a permanent video record of everything he sees.

Any computer vision system is going to have an image buffer.

When you break the system it's going to stop overwriting that buffer with new images.

If he had been left alone the images on his blog would have been overwritten with new images.

Does it make more sense to you now?

<comment><USER28> Consider how long ago these events are in his narrative. He gives a still of 'Possible Witness 1' who he met and talked with as he entered the store. Presume that that image is at the end of their conversation (as it will have been pretty long).

He then describes going to the counter and ordering food. That is to say, his daughter ordered food in French. That's a minute or two of activity, at the least.

Then he goes and sits down to eat his food. Assuming really prompt service and that he was attacked almost as soon as possible in the narrative, that's at least another half-minute to take a seat and unwrap your sandwich.

There are then a series of images and a description of him trying to reason with several people who 'deliberated on [his documentation] for some time' before pushing him out. That, to me, is at least five minutes of confrontation.

I can't see why his image buffer would be over seven minutes long.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Upsetting but I don't think there's much that can be done about it. The local police or gendarmes are unlikely to have the time to pursue it and I doubt any witnesses will come forward (from the staff at least). Just a case of three "beuf" (as the French would say) taking a dislike to a geek. Sadly, there's a sub-section of young(ish) male French society that is extremely macho and very closed minded when it comes to people not fitting the mould. They're the same jerks that will harass a girl if she's wearing a short skirt (because obviously that means "she's up for it!")

<comment> guard-of-terra In Russian, this kind of person is called "gopnik". Feel free to use.

Not directly related to one of two USA main parties.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> WHAT?! I can't believe this happened and truly hope you can find these people.

From the sound of your story, it sounds like those three were probably not actually affiliated McDonalds. Were you confident that even Potential Witness 1 was a true employee? Sounds like a scam and heist, but very strange since multiple people involved were wearing (seemingly) legitimate McDonalds clothing. Although, I would note that they were not wearing the uniform that the cashiers were wearing, which may give more weight to the conjecture that they were just lurking in plain site waiting to mug or rip someone off.

I hope you find these guys and they get whats coming to them.

<comment><USER31> Here in England the managers of a McDonalds wear different clothing items to the peons, it's plausible that the people involved were either managerial staff or possibly security? The fact that perp 3 is carrying janitorial equipment would indicate he is indeed part of the store.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> > _The computerized eyeglass processes imagery using Augmediated Reality, in > order to help the wearer see better, and when the computer is damaged, e.g. > by falling and hitting the ground (or by a physical assault), buffered > pictures for processing remain in its memory, and are not overwritten with > new ones by the then non-functioning computer vision system._

The computer broke and accidentally took these handy photos of his perpetrators? Yeah I don't believe that for a second. I'm betting that it was always recording video and in order to release these images publicly or in a courtroom, he needs a story about how it "malfunctioned" when he was roughed up.

Side tangent, that's exactly what's creepy about this glass technology. There's no physical indication that a picture/video is being recorded, like someone reaching into their bag, pulling out a camera, and pressing a button. Will someone be recording me as I'm talking to them? I'll never know.

<comment><USER33> It is plausible that the software stores recent imagery in a circular buffer for processing purposes and that the assault caused the software to crash, leaving the data in the buffer. Besides, Steve's work is university funded research so it wouldn't be hard to have the code analyzed if it came to that.

Regardless, your paranoia about such devices filming you unawares is misplaced. There are many off-the-shelf recording devices that are far less conspicuous; you have probably already been photographed hundreds of times by such devices. At least with these head mounted devices you have a definite visual cue that a camera is pointed at you.

A reasonable practice is to assume you're being filmed when not in a place or around people you trust.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I would imagine a lawyer at any of a number of the nations larger law firms would take this on for you on contingency given the rather large sums that McDonald's might be forced to spend settling this with you.

These firms are pretty approachable - don't go the local small-fry ambulance chaser, they won't know what to do.

</comment><comment><USER35> Anyone else have alarm bells going off about the statements about buffering? He's very careful to represent storage of the images as an accident caused by the incident, which is slightly odd in itself - why not simply say it records everything it sees and that that was very useful in this case?

Then if there was no storage, how come there are images for several minutes before the assault? It must have been at least a ring buffer, so there WAS storage (albeit temporary).

I'm not condoning the violence that was done to him in any way. But this dissembling makes me want another witness before I take this at face value.

<comment><USER36> _He's very careful to represent storage of the images as an accident caused by the incident, which is slightly odd in itself - why not simply say it records everything it sees and that that was very useful in this case?_

Probably because he either believes French law forbids recording people without their permission, or doesn't know one way or the other (I'm in the second camp) -- so he has to emphasise that it was not his intention to take these pictures, to make it clear that he wasn't doing anything wrong in that regard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The link in the submitted article, referring to an earlier incident in which a cell phone camera caused a physical confrontation with a McDonald's customer in France,

[http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-49140976/mcdonalds- me...](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-49140976/mcdonalds-messes-up- how-not-to-handle-service-mistakes/)

is probably important context here. It appears that there is some systematic misunderstanding among the company managers about how to train their employees to avoid overreacting to cameras in the store.

</comment><comment><USER38> The real crime is that he went to Paris and ate at McDonalds.

</comment><comment><USER39> While this incident is terrible, there's one thing Dr. Mann doesn't make entirely clear in the article.

The contact information for McDonald's France is quite easily found at <http://www.mcdonalds.fr/contacts>. It's not an e-mail address, but rather a phone number, but the way the article is written it's not at all clear if he's tried to contact them by their publicly available phone number?

<comment><USER40> He says that he tried to call, and his statement looks clear to me:

> _I also tried calling the main number, at mcdonands.com: 1-800-244-6227, but > got a voice recording that was totally unintelligible (very loud and > distorted), and it appears this number does not work._

I tried the number just now, and in fact, it is _exactly_ as he describes: you get a loud distorted unintelligible message for a 3-4 seconds and then it hangs up.

As Dr. Mann is likely calling from Canada, as I also am, it occurred to me that this particular 800 number might not work from Canada. Some USA-based 800 numbers work, and some don't -- it depends on the calling area that the 800-number subscriber wants to pay for.

Listening to the message a second time, I think that I can make out words about the "calling area", which would indicate why it's not working.

<comment><USER41> Except that number is for the US McDonalds. The French numbers would be +33 1 30 48 65 28 or +33 1 30 48 60 00 as stated on the contact page.

"I don't have the resources to take on a branch of a large multi-national corporation operating in a distant country" - doesn't really cut it when the contact page and number can be found on the Internet in 2 seconds of searching.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> A few people have voiced concern that this is a made up story. I have to admit that I belong to that bunch.

I would imagine that if a store had a concern that this was an ... odd individual, carrying a video recording device, recording customers, employees and the store itself, I would send out security to escort the person out. But I would do so with a great trepidation, because of lawsuits.

There MUST be something missing in this story. It would take great recklessness and lack of ethics to completely fabricate the story, but it is possible.

More likely is that there were some leading events that we have not been told about.

<comment><USER43> The biggest red flag for me is how he is suddenly assaulted without any warning or prior dialogue taking place. That doesn't mean that any assault was justified, but it means we are not being told something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I've been to Paris many a time and have friends there. The French cab drivers and people working in restaurants are known for their _extremely rude behavior_. Even the French hate them! I've been called a faggot by one waiter for ordering tea instead of coffee. (I was dining with two girls). Another waiter in the freaking LOUVRE MUSEUM tried to buy drugs from me. You know, just because I'm from Holland I must be carring pot. I don't know why but don't judge France and the French by visiting only Paris.

<comment> jack-r-abbit Worst two weeks of my life was two weeks spent in France. And only about 8 hours of that was in Paris. And that was actually somewhat pleasant. Aside from the people at the host company I was doing work for, nearly every human interaction I had in France fit the "Rude French" stereotype to the letter. But I doubt they care (or even know) they were all rude asses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Can someone illuminate why a recording device would illicit such a harsh reaction? I can understand businesses wanting to avoid someone stand there with a video camera, but does France take this more seriously?

<comment><USER46> There are (sadly) thousands of such stories, YouTube videos, etc. about photographers getting assaulted and intimidated when legally taking photos in certain areas. This is basically the same thing at an even more technological level.

My speculation on this: A lot of people in security have such boring jobs that even if they don't feel intimidated by photographers, they relish a chance to play big, get a buzz out of the day, _and_ look like they're "doing their job."

</comment></comment><comment> guard-of-terra I believe in the future it would be legal to film everywhere 24x365, and it also will be legal to shoot the bad guys (with weapons, not video) if they did some bad thing AND you film it.

And then everybody will behave, because if they don't they might get shot. Sort of a high-tech wild west.

(and you don't have to be a hard ball, just trigger the wearable fire response system).

<comment><USER47> There is a difference between filming in public and private spaces.

In most common-law jurisdictions filming in public is completely legal, even filming an event put on by a private entity (ie a sports game - there is no property in a spectacle). Note also the proliferation of CCTV in public spaces in many countries.

On private property you have the right to set rules and effectively dictate who is welcome and who is trespassing. Hence you can't take a video camera into a theatre etc.

There is a grey area when your public filming infringes on the reasonable expectation of privacy of another person. I doubt anyone here would take too kindly to a stranger following them 24/7 with a video camera.

<comment> guard-of-terra Stranger following you with a cam is not much worse than stranger following you 24/7, period.

But now you would be able to film that fact and then sue him for annoying behavior.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> "The computerized eyeglass processes imagery using Augmediated Reality, in order to help the wearer see better, and when the computer is damaged, e.g. by falling and hitting the ground (or by a physical assault), buffered pictures for processing remain in its memory, and are not overwritten with new ones by the then non-functioning computer vision system.

As a result of Perpetrator 1's actions, therefore images that would not have otherwise been captured were captured. Therefore by damaging the Eye Glass, Perpetrator 1 photographed himself and others within McDonalds. "

Dude, this makes no sense...

<comment><USER49> This is the bit, as it appears, where the guy treats the readers as idiots and tries to make out that he wasn't really recording the whole visit just in case that mitigates against his claim of unfair treatment.

Those are not "buffered pictures" they are captured and purposefully stored images of the entire visit - which must be more than 10 mins. A transient store that simply enabled immediate viewing would likely be of the order of [far] less than a second; comparable with the buffering in an LCD screen.

What we'll probably find is that McD asked him not to take pictures in their outlet and he claimed he wasn't taking pictures at all that it was _solely_ a medical device.

It looks about as bogus as it comes to me - is it some sort of PR stunt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> The Parisian Police did nothing?!

<comment><USER51> An American tourist was harassed but not physically injured. He has evidence (some hearsay/unverifiable) that random McDonalds employees destroyed property, but it's going to be annoying and difficult to prove anything.

I wouldn't expect a lot of help. Imagine if a random Albanian had a similar problem with NYC McDonalds employees and called the NYPD. The police don't support the assault, but they're not going to leap to attention over it.

<comment><USER52> This has always been my experience with Police in foreign countries.

They are polite, friendly, and genuinely wish the incident didn't happen. Once they ascertain nobody is really injured, etc. there is not a whole lot they can do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> The actual assault description is extremely lacking in detail. Are we to believe someone walked up unannounced and tried to rip the eye glasses off!?

<comment><USER54> That sounds like a fairly standard security overreaction to cameras, so yes?

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> A number of companies seem to have policies against in-store photography. Supermarkets don't want their competitors getting accurate data about their pricing. Usually, it's the ones that offer loyalty cards so they can track their customers more effectively.

I have no idea how a branch of McDonald's in the centre of a major tourist city expects to be able to keep any secrets but it may simply be a company wide policy. Someone should update them on just how small, cheap and effective actual spy cameras are these days. Not to mention phones.

</comment><comment><USER56> > but I could use some help and advice as to how to resolve this matter

This is bound to not be popular on HN, but, so be it.

First bit of advice: Don't be such a dork. Respect others, their space and privacy.

People don't want cameras pointed at them all the time. You might. I certainly don't. You can't just walk-up to people wearing a bunch of hardware and not expect a variety of reactions. If someone asks you to take it off and you can't, then you leave. You are the transgressor, not the people in front of you.

Second bit of advice: Ask for permission when walking into a private establishment -like a restaurant- with such a rig. It isn't their job to accommodate every nutcase that comes through the door. You are not a nutcase, but your actions may have telegraphed otherwise.

I would expect people to react very differently to an actual blind person wearing some hardware than an obviously sighted person under the same circumstances.

There are also details that are not being revealed. Does he "scan" the place and do a bunch of stuff with the hardware when entering a new environment?

I find it hard to believe that someone would outright attack him without prior motive. People just don't do that -not even in France- unless they are seriously provoked or are criminals. We know nothing about the interaction and actions of the cyborg propr to the "assault". Let's say he was "scanning" people at the restaurant and generally acting in an intrusive manner, well, that's just not acceptable behavior in most parts of the world.

Finally, the las bit of advise might be: Be aware of cultural differences when traveling to other countries. While in Canada and parts of the US people might generally go out of their way to be polite, that is not the case around the globe. In some parts of the world you'll gen man-handled and even beaten-up if you act like an idiot and show a general lack of respect. Just because you think what you are doing is OK it doesn't mean that everyone around you agrees.

Times do change. When I was in college I'd walk around with my HP calculator hanging off my belt. Outside of college I'd take it off. Today people walk around with computers in their pockets and little devices with blinking LED's in their ears all day long. That's just the way the world works. Be smart enough to use Aikido, not Karate.

Finally: Get someone to help you with industrial design. When comparing the photos on the linked page, your rig looks intimidating, while the Google rig is almost invisible.

Also, turn the damn thing off when dealing with people so your eye looks normal.

I respect the work and dedication immensely, what I think is off-base here is the assumption that it is OK to stick a camera in everyone's face (or within a private establishment) without permission.

If you decide to down-vote please have the courtesy to explain your reasons so that I and others might learn from contrasting points of view.

<comment><USER57> Christ, that's some quick victim-blaming.

There's no justification for trying to take away someone's property, even if it's a camera in your business. Physically assaulting someone over a camera is even worse. All attempts to excuse this sort of behavior immediately fall flat given that "possible witness 1" was given documentation of the device and apparently accepted it, and the perpetrator was also given the documentation.

At the point where you willfully destroy someone else's documents, you can't really hide behind cultural differences.

I'm speaking as a European if not a French citizen, but I cannnot read your post as anything but flamebait, given the prejudice and total lack of empathy.

<comment><USER56> I am not prejudiced at all. It's common sense. Also, why would I automatically have empathy for him when I don't know the whole story. What if he was a complete jerk? You don't know this and I certainly don't either so let's not take sides unless and until the facts are known.

If he was, in fact, assaulted without any provocation whatsoever it was a criminal act that the law should deal with in the strongest possible manner. I am not disputing that and don't think anyone would.

Why didn't he go to the police? I would physically go to the nearest police station and file an assault report. Do you really think French police would ignore him, particularly with evidence and witnesses? I think not.

My post was about common sense and manners. "When in Rome", if you will.

I did not place blame nor justify the destruction of property. It is purely your choice to read that into my post. PleAse don't put words in my mouth.

If any of the post wasn't clear: I, nor anyone on HN unless you were there, know exactly what went on. Therefore it is impossible to take sides an feel empathy for him or justify the other party's actions. We just don't know enough, so let's not get overly polarized in one direction or another.

My comments were more about how rude and unreasonable it might be to force yourself onto others or invade their privacy. If you want to walk around with a bunch of tech scanning everything around, you have to be respectful enough to ask permission.

Prejudice? Where? There's a huge difference between prejudice and reality. The Dutch don't have protection from the mechanisms inside windmills. I've done windmill tours with my kids and you simply have to adjust to their reality (when in Rome). Some Americans think this is insane. We might want to have floor to ceiling barriers to prevent anyone from getting their hands into the gears. The Dutch probably think that we are an over-controlling sue-happy society. None of this is prejudiced. It's just the way it is. When in the Netherlands I behave with respect and consideration for their ways. The same is the case in the UK, France, Italy or Germany. I've spent a good deal of time in various places in Europe. I can say that we, Americans, can be total jerks and so can everyone else (except the Dutch, they are always nice).

<comment><USER58> I agree that you can't go videotaping people in semi-public areas without someone getting annoyed, and that you can't take up pitchforks after hearing only one side of a story. But beyond that, I think you're being a jerk.

You criticize his 13-year-old contraption for not being as good looking as Google's last iteration of a product not yet launched. That sounds incredibly discriminatory.

You claim you'd treat his rig differently if he looked blind himself. Provided the device actually works well, how exactly do you determine that it's a necessary physical aid without intruding on his privacy?

You say you can't judge the employee for assaulting him without knowing if he, a long-time public user of this technology and a university professor, were just acting like an asshole. Yet you have no trouble speculating he were intrusively "scanning" everyone, which by the account is not something one would do with this device, especially in the given scenario.

You fault him for not contacting the police, which he explicitly said he had done.

All in all, it seems like you're projecting something onto him that is in no way deserved. This is not some video artist or smelly person we're talking about here, it's a father on vacation while wearing a prosthetic, getting into an altercation with staff that left his prosthetic damaged.

<comment><USER56> A few points:

Do you have to resort to personal attacks? Really?

Look/feel: If you are going to use intrusive tech in public you need to make the tech non-threatening. That's basic UI design. The Google device is easy to ignore. His rig is, well, look at the pictures. I also imagine it having a bunch of wires hanging off of it going to a backpack or something.

If he was blind he'd probably have a cane (well recognized internationally) or it would be obvious through interaction. The people he interacted with, per his own account, had conversations with him, which certainly clarified that he was not impaired.

It doesn't matter if he is a university professor or the pope. Both can behave as complete jerks and produce negative reactions on other people. Pedigree does not imply common sense.

He should have GONE to the police immediately, not "contacted them" --whatever that means. The fact that the embassy, police and consulate seem to have ignored him is a very interesting bit of data. I don't know what it means.

It's a father on vacation with his daughter being so inconsiderate as to not leave his crap at home in order to enjoy a vacation with his family. That alone paints a profile for me. Sorry. I could be completely wrong, but I would not do that to my kids. It takes a certain mentality to place your geeky needs above those of your kids for self-serving reasons.

If my oldest son was going around Paris shoving cameras in people's faces in public or private spaces and got slapped around I'd tell him to not be an idiot next time.

There is such a thing as behaving properly while in public and private. Some might disagree, but I've taught my kids to not be loud at restaurants, while I see others that don't care about the rest of the people dining and let their kids be loud and not allow the table next to them have a pleasant conversation. Being considerate is part of living in a pleasant society.

<comment><USER59> > Do you have to resort to personal attacks? Really?

You are hardly in a position to talk. Anyway, the only 'personal attack' that I see is calling you a jerk - which seems to be rather an entirely accurate characterization.

> If you are going to use intrusive tech in public you need to make the tech > non-threatening. That's basic UI design.

'Basic UI design' would be making sure that a device intended for permanent attachment to a human body was sufficiently supported and padded to prevent physical damage.

Appearance would be a strictly secondary concern, especially given that we supposedly live in a 'pleasant society,' as you put it, where physical assault should be looked down upon as a response to 'looking weird.' Though I have a sneaking suspicion that you might disagree with that idea . . .

<comment><USER56> > You are hardly in a position to talk. Anyway, the only 'personal attack' > that I see is calling you a jerk - which seems to be rather an entirely > accurate characterization.

I did not attack you personally in any way. You have chosen to resort to name calling without justification. I'll let the reader decided where the ad- hominem originated, which is really obvious.

I never once suggested that a physical attack was justified. You are choosing to read and extrapolate that out of my words. It's wrong, but you are free to use your imagination in any way you care to.

Live long and prosper.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> This particular McDonalds has been at the centre of SO many protests turned violent, anti-americanist attacks & incidents that I'm pretty sure the staff are permanently suspicious of anything or anyone out of the norm. I too have been to this particular McDonalds & the sheer volume of people that pass through the doors I'm surprised they don't have a more professional security team with the intelligence to differentiate on a customer by customer basis. I also totally agree that any form of photography in Paris (either close up to an individual store front or inside) will cause immediate confrontation.

There is some irony in this story, that McDonalds' objection to recording images in their store actually gave the Eye Glass wearer a reason to use the images captured. An incident was caused by them trying to attempt to viciously stop what they perceived as a threat.

</comment><comment><USER61> I find it strange that there's no mention of a police report or a complaint to the Canadian embassy.

</comment><comment><USER62> The reality is that you are assaulting other people's privacy if you wear this glasses.

It does not matter that you have a letter from your doctor, you have to provide a way of switching the thing off.

Me, me, me. What about others? What happens if people don't want to be stalked?.

This man does not realize what he is doing is not only for good, but is going to be used for the bad, to control other people.

This has serious consequences for the people. Very serious , you know what John was doing from 6:00pm to 6:16, where he was, with whom.

The good thing about cities was the personal freedom to do anything without gossip like in a rural village.

In the future you will have central databases with information about what every person is doing on real time, just sending the video feed and using facial recognition technology.

<comment><USER63> honestly I don't care about their privacy. They work at mcdonalds not fucking NASA, it no secret what a big mac is

<comment><USER64> NASA is publicly funded and its mission is to extend human knowledge. Why should anything there be more secret than at McDonlads?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Seems to me like he needs to implement a Stephenson style panic button - <USER2> Snow Crash, at one point YT used a special button on her phone to summon help from other couriers.

It'd be easy enough to implement technically; when I hit the panic button it notifies all listeners of my location; listeners configure how far away they want reports. (perhaps taking reports from further away from people with higher reputation or from people you manually configure as more important...)

I mean, in the case of Mann, it's easy; if I was nearby and knew he needed physical help, I'd be happy to show up. The problem is for the rest of us, the unknowns, there would need to be some sort of sense of community or something.

<comment><USER66> It would be fantastic to be able to summon the MIT wearables division in an emergency. Surely one of them has built a Gundam by now. [http://www.wearcam.org/computing.html/borgs_outside_medialab...](http://www.wearcam.org/computing.html/borgs_outside_medialab.jpg)

<comment><USER65> hah. yeah. but I think the most powerful thing (and this could be implemented with cellphones) is just being able to summon witnesses, esp. witnesses with cameras.

It seems that these days wars are more about how it looks in the media than about killing as many of the other guys as you can. Just knowing that they are being watched, I think, would prevent most violent crime.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> McDonald's has a policy of not allowing photography in their stores. Clearly in this case there seems to have been an overreaction, they should have just politely but firmly asked him to leave.

 _McDonand's does not publish any direct contact email information_

So do it the old fashioned way. Get out a pen, paper, and stamp. Probaly have better results anyway. Here are the people in charge: [http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/our_company/leadership.htm...](http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/our_company/leadership.html). Their address, from their "contact us" web page, is McDonald's Corporation, 2111 McDonald's Dr., Oak Brook, IL 60523

</comment><comment><USER68> This is really simple: don't eat at McDonald's. If you don't want a hysterical society where people get beaten up while minding their own business, then please do not reward them with your money.

</comment><comment><USER69> Go to Paris. Eat at a McDonald's. o_O

<comment><USER70> Maybe it's a fast meal at midday when there are still places to go, and a good meal in the evening to wind down.

<comment><USER69> I spent sometime in Lyon last summer, the cafes aren't too slow when you want to grab a bite to eat. However, I can only assume one would go to McDonald's to get a Royale with Cheese ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Anybody else notice that this is blocked as "spammy" on Facebook?

<comment><USER72> Getting the same thing here. I did find an acknowledgement from Facebook regarding blocking imgur.com 8 hours ago ([http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/wo8ej/facebook_h...](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/wo8ej/facebook_has_blocked_imgurcom/c5f2pv0)), but blocking EyeTap seems suspicious.

<comment><USER73> same thing here

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> Sadly, I predicted this would happen years ago. Fear of Photography vs. Next Generation Prosthetics.

The way technology and society work, I expect that visual prosthetics will eventually have built-in recording restrictions and classified as medical devices, thus making people with photophobia feel safe, or they will jump into the mainstream so fast (ala Google) that society will get used to it. Having an unobtrusive appearance would help, but I don't hold much hope for the latter.

</comment><comment><USER75> I can't help but think, anonymous is the right kind of people to deal with this incident. Given he is willing to publish photos without masking faces.

</comment><comment><USER76> What about simple sale of illicit goods ? That would warrant a response like this. With so many people in and out it would be easy to slip something in with the orders. It isn't the first time it's happened, either.

[http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods- city...](http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-city/police- say-mcdonalds-drug-buys-lucrative-333133/)

</comment><comment><USER77> Why are we discussing this on HN?

If you were assaulted, file a police report. If your private property was damaged, hire a lawyer or file a small claims lawsuit.

</comment><comment><USER78> part of the problem might also be McDonald's nazi-like controlling strategy - in our business class a McDonalds owner came in couple months ago and told a lot about his 2 McDonalds locations in New England. Basically, owners of McDonalds don't own real estate, so that if McDonald's corporation doesn't like the owner they can make the owner out and change owner through an auction. McDonald's can send undercover people to check quality of service at any time, and if they don't like something - number of checks double and warning to owner is given, so that if owner doesn't improve, the headquarters will change the owner.

McDonalds is very very dependent on its reputation, because if there are problems with one location, other locations suffer as well. So, spreading this case more would allow him to get remedy.

I believe that it is possible to sue McDonalds headquarters for such shit. One woman successfully sued McDonalds for a few millions for spilled hot coffee.

Please look for a free consultation from a good lawyer, who might want to work for a percent from the case remedy.

</comment><comment><USER79> A bit off-topic, but I couldn't even get to the linked article, even after allowing all javascript I could find. Web really has gone to hell.

</comment><comment><USER80> Surely the only take-away from this is that McDonald's is a terrible place. Didn't we all know that already?

It's still helpful to try and do as much damage as possible with this story (ideally getting some money or at least an apology for the victim), but make no mistake that the company structure will make this vanish into the æther in no time.

The long-term solution: just don't go there.

<comment><USER33> Do we all know that? Is it true?

I have had hundreds of meals at McDonalds and never witnessed anything like this. The staff have been pleasant and helpful, the environment clean, and the food as advertised. "Terrible," seems ridiculously hyperbolic to me.

<comment><USER81> 'as advertised' - there's ya terrible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> This is an outrageous assault and battery. This is a criminal act. I hope the police are involved and arrests are made.

Steve Mann is the father of wearable computer. I remember seeing him as a undergrad in MIT wearing those clumsy camera and computer at the belt. He is the pioneer in real cyborg tech.

</comment><comment><USER83> I can`t accept the story without questioning the part with the buffer. I looked at the pictures and thought, this buffer must have been very huge to record all those images. Watching the full buffer content would be interesting.

<comment><USER83> It seems that he removed or never stored related images on his glogger profile.

[http://glogger.mobi/u_noscript.php?u=mann&y=2012&m=7](http://glogger.mobi/u_noscript.php?u=mann&y=2012&m=7)

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> If you think McDonald's is liable for assaulting you, bring a suit. If you lack the resources to bring a suit, by all means complain and stop shopping at McDonald's.

But how much else is there to say, really?

</comment><comment><USER85> What will be really interesting is when he brings his recording device into somewhere people get naked, like a locker room...that isn't going to go well with a lot of people.

</comment><comment><USER86> Random tidbit from the article - HDR photography is patented.

</comment><comment><USER48> What is wrong about taking pics at mcdonalds, Im confused..

</comment><comment><USER87> If the normal channels of bureaucracy don't find this man justice, I'm sure the internet will.

All hail the internet!

</comment><comment><USER88> Assuming everything the OP says about the incident is true, why would the French police not help ?

</comment><comment><USER89> Facebook don't allow to put this link in a comment, it's strange

</comment><comment><USER90> Stop watching Breaking Bad, people.

</comment><comment><USER91> There's no question that Perp-1 and Perp-2 were assholes and had no right to do whatever they did. But the sheer _naivety_ and _entitlement_ in this story really makes me shake my head in disbelief. Maybe he just doesn't have any experience travelling abroad?

What about his travel insurance? He doesn't mention that at all. He got assaulted and his expensive medical equipment broken. He even got photographic evidence! Sounds like a clear-cut case that any decent travel insurance would cover. He did check with his insurance agency whether they cover his eyeglasses, right? And if they did not, he must have surely insured them separately before travelling abroad, right? So, what is this "I'm not seeking to be awarded money. I just want my Glass fixed" about then?

Did he really bring an expensive piece of medical equipment on your vacation abroad, without properly insuring it?

And what about this "letter from my doctor"? Anyone notice how his excruciatingly detailed report is rather quiet on this matter, he doesn't even mention anything like "which explains that I require these glasses for health reasons" (which would be the _only_ time when a "letter from my doctor" would carry _any_ weight). Or whether it includes a French translation. I know this because I have, on occasion, had to bring certain medications over the border (to Turkey, a non-Schengen country). It's not "a letter from my doctor", it's a multi-lingual form you need to request at the embassy of the country you're going, which your doctor fills in, signs _and stamps_ \--I was informed that in Turkey, the bureaucrats won't accept forms that are not stamped, and I assume that every country has its peculiarities like that. I brought three copies to be on the safe side, one for in my suitcase in my hotel, one for in my wallet to always have with me, and a third one for "just in case" I gave to a travel companion. Overkill maybe, but it's those little details that can make the difference between a minor inconvenience and a disaster, when on holiday.

As far as his description is concerned his letter might as well have been a postcard with "Hi Steve, have fun on your vacation! Hope your glasses don't break. Greetings, your friend the nameless Doctor, MD.".

There's a few other parts of the story where details are somewhat lacking. (I'm mostly noticing because he's being rather tediously detailed about all sorts of irrelevant things, such as the meal he ordered)

What _exactly_ happened when things turned bad? His story makes it seem like Perp-1 came _out of the blue_ and "angrily grabbed my eyeglass, and tried to pull it off my head", really? And he later states "struck my Eye Glass, not a direct hit like a punch in the face, but a side-swipe, grabbing motion", a separate event implying that he and his family actually stuck around after having been assaulted from behind to see if they had any more where that came from? You're in a cheap "restaurant" in a foreign country, people are being aggressive, you get the fuck out. It's a McDonalds, not a US Embassy. The meals may be molecularly identical, but you're not in the US. And, apparently, uninsured.

He also does not mention whether there were any words exchanged as things got heated. Did they ask him to leave? Did Mr Mann say or explain anything? His daughter speaks French, did she step in and try to mend the situation? French people do have a habit of speaking rather fast and incomprehensible as they get more annoyed, so maybe her French did not suffice. In which case, you're a tourist in a hostile situation, not speaking the language, and it's probably smart to leave.

Also it seems pretty obvious that Perp-2 was not a McDonalds employee (notice the shades in his hair and the "meal" in front of him). The most logical explanation would seem to be that Perp-2 was a (minor) celebrity, complaining about a possible paparazzi tabloid photographer (who are known for doing weirder things than wearing silly cameraglasses). Doesn't make it right, but tabloid photographers sometimes get treated very similarly.

What about "I also contacted the Embassy, Consulate, Police, etc., without much luck". Sounds like that aspect adventure should have been at least half of his story. No word about contacting his travel insurance agent. They should have a 24/7 world-wide hotline, especially when it concerns, er, "medical emergencies", such as, you know, damage to your expensive highly specialized medical equipment that you really need to carry on you at all times as your properly filled out, stamped and translated paperwork clearly shows.

I can't believe he actually spent more words on how he tried to contact McDonalds than what the embassy, consulate, police and his travel insurance agent had to say. He actually called a US 1-800 number to speak to a McDonalds rep?! What good did he expect that would do? Is that how you do it in the US? "Take on a branch of a large multi-national corporation operating in a distant country", take them on about what? You can't possibly expect them to take responsibility for this, that is why other countries also have police and laws and such, and you go to them. For example, let's say you go to Somalia (in case Mr Mann is reading: please don't actually do this), it's practically anarchy there, not much of a state to speak of. Say you find a McDonald's restaurant, you go there, and you get beaten up and mugged by the staff there. Would you then also call this US 1-800 number and complain to the US branch of McDonald's and say "I went to one of your establishments in Somalia and I got mugged!" ?

What I would do in his case:

1\. As soon as I get out of the restaurant, call the travel insurance hotline, who would probably tell me to:

2\. Go to the police, file a report of physical assault and property damage. There is no "luck" involved. File the report, you get a piece of paper, and that is your only business with the French police. There is very little you can do about bringing justice to the McD employees, so forget about them.

3\. The piece of paper report is the evidence you need to make the claim with your travel insurance agency. Those photographs will also come in handy.

4\. They either pay out or not. If not, consider getting better insurance and try reading your insurance policy to see if they cover damages done to your eyeglasses in cases of physical assault. But if they don't cover even that, I really wonder what they do cover. The biggest question is probably whether the glasses are more expensive than a certain maximum limit coverage. But that's really something you should take into account before leaving abroad with really expensive and fragile medical equipment on your face.

4b. There is a possibility where your travel insurance company will want the details of whoever assaulted you, to see if they can make a deal with their liability insurance, if those are mandated in France. The police report should also help with that. This will make things quite a bit more tedious, but still relatively straight-forward, as you know who it is and where he works.

5\. End of story. Notice how nobody needed to "take on a foreign branch of a multi-national corporation" ...

</comment><comment><USER92> Complete aside - Comment about posted pictures from Digital Eye Glass

I noticed from his posted pictures (labelled as Possible Witness 2) [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RnoG7dHRDjY/UASnGzPFkSI/AAAAAAAAAD...](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RnoG7dHRDjY/UASnGzPFkSI/AAAAAAAAADA/8zPAI5x2Cm0/s640/cashier.jpg)

There's some nasty spherical lensing effects there. I'm noticing that from the signboard on the right middle side. The menuboard should be flat across, with perhaps a deviation of where the signage isnt exactly flush to each other. Also in other pictures, you can see spherical lensing distortion from the corners of walls and ceiling tiles.

I know of libraries that take low compute overhead that compensate for this. And all you need for calibration is a checkerboard of white and black waved around.

<comment><USER93> This could be intentional, as it may increase his peripheral vision through the Eye Glass.

<comment><USER64> It may also be corrected when the image is projected into his eye.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER94> Can't wait for the Anonymous to hack and publish McDonalds' mail systems.

As a side benefit, we might learn what kind of turd they're feeding to people.

<comment><USER95> they will not move a finger. unless you say perpetrator 1 proceeded to kick a cat.

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> > visit Paris

> go to McDonald's

<comment><USER97> He was traveling with his kids.

<comment><USER98> ... which is probably one of the best reasons you shouldn't go to MacDonald's.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> guys, did they blocked the link on facebook ? <http://www.lize.it/up/blockedOnFb.png></comment>


Linux RAID is different from Windows for sound technical and historical reasons - <AUTHOR> https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/QWnM6s2zKWm <comment><USER2> You can do really cool things with Linux RAID, like RAID stripe across 8 virtual (i.e., EBS @ EC2) volumes and then layer dmcrypt on top of that or other things for use cases that it was never even designed for. Linux RAID (and volume management) were really designed The UNIX Way as modular, small tools that can be applied like Lego bricks, and no where is that more user- visible than in the RAID/LVM/etc subsystems.

<comment><USER3> Or just the classic Floppy RAID [http://mac-guild.org/raid.html](http://mac- guild.org/raid.html) (this is OS X but the same thing applies)

<comment><USER4> Now do it with multiple 1.2MB 5.25" drives if you can find a system with a BIOS old enough to support the hardware, yet new enough to run a modern kernel.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Interesting if rosy glasses view; Linux didn't propagate I/O barriers until 2.6.33 on most common mdraid setups which is absolutely insane. [https://monolight.cc/2011/06/barriers-caches- filesystems/](https://monolight.cc/2011/06/barriers-caches-filesystems/)

I know this is Linux's Alan Cox but the post reads like a typical Windows hater Linux desktoper and is quite amusing and even quaint if you have just passing familiarity with ZFS internals to contrast.

As far as the layered approach I would also suggest study of FreeBSD's geom which dips slightly below and above Linux's mdraid (i.e. you still use geom with ZFS, zvols) but IMHO is a bit cleaner probably because it's a later arrival.

<comment><USER6> mdraid will still, after some 10 years of the bug being known[1], happily corrupt all your data if you mix hardware with different queue sizes.

How do you know you you have hardware with different queue sizes? Why, you start to experience data corruption for no apparent reason, of course. There's no other warning. And the only "workaround" is setting the global queue size to the lowest common denominator of the hardware installed – and God help you if you later install hardware with a lower queue size.

[1] [https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9401](https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9401)

<comment><USER7> Is that bug actually fixed or not? The bug status is "CLOSED CODE_FIX", but commenters in the bug say they still have the problem with kernel versions in which the fix is supposed to be present.

(Aside: I think bug trackers should be configured in such a way that you can't mark a bug as having been fixed unless you specify the ID of the commit in which it was fixed.)

<comment><USER6> It's not fixed, I'm still seeing it on kernel 4.8.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Submitter's comment.

Alan Cox, former #2 Linux kernel developer, at G+, on the differences between Linux and Microsoft RAID support, related to recent Lenovo news,[1] and the technical and historical basis for this.

I did some massaging of the fourth paragraph, which seems closest to a lede/head, to fit within HN's 80 character headline limit. The first four 'graphs of the post:

 _" Unsupported models will rely on Linux operating system vendors releasing new kernel and drivers to support features such as RAID on SSD"_

 _Good to see that the tech press fact check comments from companies as well as the political press fact check politicians. I 'm reading this on a box with RAID1 SSD. It's had RAID1 SSD for some years._

 _Linux has supported RAID on SSD for years, in fact it supported it from the moment you could plug an SSD into a Linux PC._

 _Linux RAID is different from much of the Windows experience, for a mix of sound technical reasons and historical ones._

________________________________

Notes:

1\. [http://www.gossamer- threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/2352338](http://www.gossamer- threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/2352338) (from Cox's post).

<comment><USER8> After looking at the gossamer thread: Could this be _directly_ related to the current BIOS problems? Lenovo's closed source driver runs into problems -> Lenovo dev wants to commit workaround to Linux, fails -> force different PCI- ID as alternate workaround by crippling the BIOS? Firmware gets copy&pasted to non-servers?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Is this in reference to the whole "OMG Microsoft/Lenovo is locking down your laptop!" scandal?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568010](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12568010)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Hasn't Windows supported software RAID for quite a while now ?

<comment><USER11> Ish, and it depends on version -- like I created a RAID1 array for my gaming box when I was using windows 7 pro; then upgraded to windows 10 home thinking "I'm not using any of the pro features anyway"... turns out that RAID1 is a pro feature.

What's worse: if you try and mount the drives, it doesn't say "this looks like a raid1 volume, I don't have drivers for that, please upgrade to access this data", it says something more like "data corrupt, would you like to format this drive? [Yn]" :/

<comment><USER12> So RAID1 will someday be DLC in the Windows Store?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > The Linux RAID history is different because unlike Microsoft the decision > was made to integrate software RAID properly with the OS.

Well there wasn't really a choice was there?

</comment><comment><USER14> Does linux RAID supports TRIM? I believe most hardware RAID cards still do not.

<comment><USER15> Some RAID models support TRIM at this point (modern kernel version). I can't find the commit or change log in a few seconds. But this bug confirms it: [https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117051](https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117051) (Very slow discard(trim) with mdadm raid0 array )

</comment></comment><comment> mike-cardwell dmraid is pretty cool. My desktop has 4 disks configured in a "fakeraid" RAID 10 setup. My desktop dual boots Debian and Windows. I can use/share that RAID 10 volume under both Debian and Windows just as easily as I could a single disk. I use half of the volume for my Windows Steam library and the other half for my Linux Steam library. I didn't have to do anything special under Linux. dmraid just made it magically work.

</comment><comment><USER16> It's 2016. If you are still deploying RAID, you're doing it wrong. Seriously guys, ZFS. Look it up.

<comment><USER17> RAID isn't dead yet.

* outboard RAID provides write amplification across physical devices

* soft RAID1 (simple mirror) is nice for things like boot volumes and easy to fix when it breaks

But yeah, ZFS and similar strategies work much better than soft RAID-5/6 for file store resiliency across visible LUNs.

<comment><USER5> You may want to do a quick search on what write amplification means. It's an undesirable property of data structures.

I think you perhaps meant fan out, which is partially valid but addressed in the submitted article - i.e. bus speeds have improved greatly. In fact to the point where you can easily have no bus at all: point to point PCIe lanes to each NVMe device.

A zmirror is simple too, and gives you boot environments so you can roll back failed upgrades and other magic.</comment></comment></comment>


We Snuck into Seattle's Super Secret White Nationalist Convention - <AUTHOR> http://www.thestranger.com/news/2017/10/04/25451102/we-snuck-into-seattles-super-secret-white-nationalist-convention <comment><USER2>
      Of the 70 to 80 people in the lodge

70 people counts as a _" Convention"_ now?</comment>


The Emperor's New Rules - jim-jim-jim https://thebaffler.com/latest/the-emperors-new-rules-kaiser-schatzlein <comment><AUTHOR> The last sentence really nails what's behind that queasy feeling some workplaces give off when you can't specifically figure out why they feel dishonest.

"The feeling of inconsequence is reinforced when Hastings flat-out admits that if you work in a non-creative field, his managerial framework doesn't apply. "If you're leading an emergency room," he writes, "testing airplanes, managing a coal mine, or delivering just-in-time medication to senior citizens, rules with process is the way to go." That is, if society depends on what you do, treating business like a competitive game played by an elite squadron of breathtaking colleagues won't cut it. Meritocracy, if it functions at all, seems to work best when nothing is at stake."

I thought this was a fun reframing of the traditional way "talent" is thought of in the workplace. The connotation of the word kennel really seems to strike at the truth under the haze of buzzwords.

"All one needed to blast through the rapids of the new economy was a small dinghy packed with perky geniuses who had been plucked from the meritocratic kennels of the world's most elite institutions."</comment>


The World's Most Expensive Cities 2010 - <AUTHOR> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/109909/the-worlds-most-expensive-cities-2010 <comment><USER2> Nagoya is not a terribly expensive city to live in if you live like a Japanese person. (The starting salary for engineers is about $2,200, and for a single young man that makes one comfortably middle class.)

If you live like a Western executive, though, it can be kind of pricy. (My friends and I sometimes talk -- mostly jokingly -- about the English tax: if you need somebody to explain things to you in English, you are almost certainly paying a premium over market for that service. On high-end apartments, for example, the difference between going to the place I know which markets itself as foreigner friendly and walking into the apartment service and asking for the comparable apartment next door is about 50%.)

<comment><USER3> That's monthly? I would make more as a postman in norway (working considerably less).

<comment><USER4> I was shocked at how low the salaries were in Japan when I lived there. The company subsidizes the train, which otherwise would be a major expense, but still...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The article would be better titled "Most Expensive Cities (if You Live Like an American)".

That's the only explanation for all the African cities. No doubt American food, and in particular, American _brands_ , are very expensive there.

OTOH, if you're willing to eat native foods and buy native brands, I seriously doubt Louanda is all that expensive.

</comment><comment><USER6> Does anyone have an actual LIST that I can look at _AT ONCE_ and compare the entries, spot patterns, etc?

I can't even hover over the images/thumnails and get the name of the city! Even the URIs are numbers and not names, so I actually have to click through 50 pages!

EDIT:

Here y'all are: <http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp>

<comment><USER7> Hah, that one is funny. The numbers for Stockholm look really weird. Groceries is at index 110, but rent at 27. This is true and a result of decades of political rent control, but what the numbers don't tell you is that it's impossible to actually get a decent apartment for rent. It's a completely dysfunctional market.

If they would have factored in the costs for buying an apartment or a house, it would look a lot more sane, and you would get numbers that are closer to what you would expect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Wait, what? The third most expensive city in the world is in West Africa, and has 57% of its population living in extreme poverty? What happened there?

<comment><USER9> Luanda has been notably expensive for a long time, for western lifestyles anyway. I think the main issue there is that the western contingent is small and very corporate.

<comment><USER8> Isn't this a little like saying that NYC is the most expensive city in the world by isolating Tribeca and ignoring the Bronx?

<comment><USER10> Yes.

[http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/06/0622_most_expensive_...](http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/06/0622_most_expensive_cities/30.htm)

"Note: Prices are for Manhattan only."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> enjoy-your-stay Ah, Zurich at no. 10, the place I've chosen to develop my startup. I probably should've taken my hard earned savings somewhere cheaper, but it's a great place to live and has a very good infrastructure.

</comment><comment><USER11> Not accurate for me. If the average salary in XXX is $10,000 and the cost of a lunch is $50; then it's not quite expensive for the average person. But when your salary is $300 and the lunch is $10, it's really expensive.

<comment><USER12> Well at the very least it's useful if you're comparing job offers, in which case you know the salary, but not the cost of living. (Another thing to look up is taxes.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This isn't really much use to anyone but US tourists if it won't take in to account purchasing power parity...

</comment><comment><USER14> Lunch in Copenhagen for $36. Wonderful.

<comment><USER15> I live in Copenhagen, and I can assure you those are not average prices. I don't know where they got those numbers.

<comment><USER7> Well, the picture in the article is of D'angleterre, perhaps they ate their lunch there? :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is really interesting that most of the countries are on the list because of currency trends. Due to the weakening of the dollar or strengthening of the yen. Most of the top 10 comprises of Japanese cities and US has only one city in there. Goes to show how weak dollar has become</comment>


Are You 100% Committed? - <AUTHOR> http://mindfulentrepreneur.com/blog/2007/03/25/are-you-100-committed/ <comment><USER2> Ha, I could never work in an environment this structured. How can anyone?</comment>


Ask HN: what resources would you recommend to Project Managers? - <AUTHOR>

Hey HN,
I'm looking to brush up on my PM skills in preparation for a new job, and I've been gathering up some of the blogs, videos, books, and other media that has anything and everything to do with Project Management.
Then I thought: why not create a centralized resource that I could update for others trying to improve their own PM skills?
So here we are. Feel free to post anything and everything you have that you would recommend to a PM to improve their skills and give them new things to think about for their job. <comment><USER2> think differently start here: <http://www.management30.com/> <http://flowchainsensei.wordpress.com/> <http://agilecoach.typepad.com/agile- coaching/> <http://www.selfishprogramming.com/> <http://www.targetprocess.com/blog/>

for product dev orgs: [http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Product-Development- Flow-Ge...](http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Product-Development-Flow- Generation/dp/1935401009)

</comment><comment><USER3> Definitely read the "Mythical Man Month" book.</comment>


Quantum computing will change the way the world uses energy - <AUTHOR> https://qz.com/1566061/quantum-computing-will-change-the-way-the-world-uses-energy/ <comment><USER2> The article is full of exaggerations. Quantums computers are more efficient for some kind of problems, not more efficient for every problem.

In particular this paragraph:

> _And then there's the price. Most modern classical supercomputers use > between 1 to 10 megawatts of power on average, which is enough electricity > to meet the instantaneous demand of almost 10,000 homes. As a year's worth > of electricity at 1 megawatt costs about $1 million in the US, this leads to > multimillion-dollar price tags for operating these classical supercomputers. > In contrast, each comparable quantum computer using 25 kilowatts of power > costs about $25,000 per unit per year to run._

Since the current quantum computers are much more smaller than a supercomputer, it's ridiculous to say "each comparable quantum computer".</comment>


Opera Mini approved for iPhone - <AUTHOR> http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2010/04/13/

<comment><USER4> First impressions:

1\. it's very responsive. Much snappier than Safari; the difference is very noticeable.

2\. pages download much quicker

3\. zooming in and out is faster, but you only have two zoom levels. If you "pinch to zoom" it immediately zooms in all the way.

4\. the home screen with 9 favorites works great

5\. it's a little buggy (clicks don't always register)

6\. killer feature #1: it automatically stores the entire app state, so you can open a few tabs, switch apps, go back and have everything the way you left it. This is a big deal, because Safari forgets your pages eventually, which is so frustrating when you have your travel plans in a safari tab and 3G is not exactly reliable.

7\. killer feature #2: you can save pages

8\. In full screen mode it makes for a pretty decent reader.

9\. It doesn't suffer from "too small font" syndrome.

10\. It has this "Snap to column" thing where your view automatically snaps to the column edges. This makes reading more like reading on Instapaper and less like safari.

11\. It loads instantly, even when I have 3 tabs open. It's really that fast.

The only real downsides I know of so far are that it has trouble rendering more complex web pages, invades my privacy and doesn't do Javascript. Flash content simply doesn't appear (so you don't even know it should be there) and YouTube links don't link to the YouTube app. Still very impressive.

<comment><USER5> It doesn't scroll to the top of the page when you tap the status bar. Hate when apps neglect to do that.

<comment><USER6> It looks like you can scroll to the top by tapping the red title bar.

<comment><USER7> The red bar is gone in full-screen mode so it's one or the other; full screen or scroll to top.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I look at this as kind of amusing; my previous phone could _only_ run Opera Mini, and the prospect of having a real web browser was one of the things which drove me to the iPhone. Mobile Safari's UI and its actual support for decently rendering pages (coupled with the privacy concerns Opera Mini's proxy system naturally raises) are so far ahead that I'm a bit surprised anyone would actually _choose_ to use Opera Mini -- it's like I've stumbled into a bizarre parallel world where people are clamoring for the right to install and use IE6 as a replacement for Firefox or Chrome.

<comment><USER9> Well put. Well people started making a fuss about Opera Mini getting approved I couldn't understand why. Safari on the iPhone is the best mobile browser out there in terms of both specification conformance and performance.

<comment><USER10> Because there is a percentage of people heating long waits... Safari is very nice but not responsive enough, and sometimes if you want just to read a news site, the user experience is just the same. Also I think that EDGE users will enjoy the fact that finally it's possible to have decent loading times of web pages.

I live in a city covered by 3G but when I from in my home town it's almost impossible to suft the web with Safari, while it was ok with Opera Mini on a Nokia N70 phone.

Opera Mini is surely not a drop in replacement for Safari Mobile, but it surely is a useful tool, much more useful than most of the other top-downloads in the Appstore.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Does anyone know how Opera makes money from this version? Surely the bandwidth and computational costs of processing, compressing and sending out webpages would exceed revenue from Google search, right?

<comment><USER12> Well they know every page everyone visits and everything they click on, etc. What does the privacy policy say?

<comment><USER13> _Opera does not store any users' private information. Opera generates statistics of the usage of Opera Mini, but these are aggregated numbers and no information can be linked to a single user._

<http://www.opera.com/mobile/help/faq/#privacy>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Link to the AppStore [http://itunes.apple.com/uk/app/opera-mini-web- browser/id3637...](http://itunes.apple.com/uk/app/opera-mini-web- browser/id363729560?mt=8) — It's not as fast as I expected, but still

For now: "un-zommed" content is unreadable, for instance, nytimes.com in Opera <http://cl.ly/JIP> vs Safari Mobile: <http://cl.ly/J9i> (which is also unreadable, but well, I can distinct letters)

<comment><USER15> Frustratingly, it's not available on the Canadian App Store. I wonder if there's a reason for that, or if it just hasn't propagated yet.

<comment><USER16> A lot of the apps don't trickle down from the US store to local stores :-/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Does the Opera browser app itself not interpret javascript? Is it offloaded to the iPhone's WebKit/rendering engine? Otherwise this would seem to fly in the face of the recent change to 3.3.1.

<comment><USER18> Think of Opera Mini as an interactive image viewer. They interpret all JavaScript on the server side and sent result back to the client using OBML[1]. Or at least that's how it works on other device.

      [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_Mini#Functionality

<comment><USER17> Interesting. The section on JavaScript support is not encouraging actually. Can anyone report on attempting to use a js-heavy web-app through Opera Mini, e.g. Gmail?

<comment><USER19> It's not great at AJAX. My brother has a Blackberry and mainly uses Opera, and the fact that Sporcle(.com) worked on my iPhone shocked him. Apparently Opera can't do onchange.

Gmail just gives the normal HTML mobile version, like it did in the bad old days before iPhone.

<comment><USER20> I just tested, and sporcle.com works well on Symbian. Does blackberry have it's own version of opera too?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Just did a 20 minutes test: I'm loving it.

It's amazing how I'm happy to trade features for speed. Also the UI is so much... like Fast Tracker :) That 2D interface that is clearly primitive but reacts like a videogame, instantaneously.

Saving pages and fast access to favorites is also very cool, but speed is the real killer feature here IMHO.

</comment><comment><USER21> I wrote up my initial impressions here:

[http://thedailyt.com/2010/04/opera-mini-for-the-iphone- initi...](http://thedailyt.com/2010/04/opera-mini-for-the-iphone-initial- impressions/)

I have to agree with most posters here. It's a nice start and I think it's a very good thing there's now a competing browser engine in the App Store. It has quite a few non-native feeling elements to it, so if they iron out the kinks and give it a bit more of an iPhone feel it'll be a good contender.

The usual Opera instant back function (no reloading of pages on clicking the back button) is killer!

</comment><comment><USER22> First impressions:

1\. It renders pages in exactly the same way it does on my Blackberry.

2\. The UI is just as awkward.

Amazing.

<comment><USER23> Friend of mine:

 _"Opera Mini's flagrant disregard for UI conventions would get any other app rejected."_

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. It's bad on so many levels and somehow received special treatment.

<comment><USER24> Maybe it's fine to duplicate existing functionality on the iPhone if you do it so badly that there's no danger of anyone actually using it.

<comment><USER25> That's the overruling statement right there for most of this App store shenanigans.., if something sucks people won't use it, and it won't be a threat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Downloaded it for the Find in Page feature and uninstalled pretty much immediately - I thought it would be serious competition for my Find In Page plugin for Safari and finally deliver this functionality in a native way.

Instead, over 60% of the screen is permanently covered by the toolbar at the top and the keypad at the bottom. No way to scroll either while in the Find in Page mode. No way to step backwards throught search results either - <USER2> button only. What were you guys thinking?! Find in Page could have been a killer feature for you over Safari, and it falls way short.

In addition, the app does not feel Cocoa Touch-like - UI elements look faked and the feel is different. Sorry, I had much higher expectations for days waiting for the release, and it just did not deliver iPhone-like experience. Better luck in the next version, I guess. BTW, love Opera on the desktop!

PS: almost forgot - PDF is not supported at all and is delegated to Safari instead!

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm shocked.

The app is still somewhat crippled though, all links from other Apps can only be opened in Safari. So, not the same as switching a browser on your desktop or laptop. Nonetheless it seems like a step in the right direction.

<comment><USER28> I'm not sure it's surprising, I suspect Opera-mini's nature of preprocessing and compression might have helped it get approved because of the bandwidth saving promise for AT&T.

<comment><USER29> Nothing to do with AT&T or bandwidth; the preprocessing and compression are what make it abide by Apple's TOS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> The counter is still counting... <http://my.opera.com/community/countup/>

_edit: They've added a message, although the counter is still going_

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not available in the store yet.

<comment><USER31> On the competition page it does say

 _When do you think Opera Mini will be approved by Apple?_

<comment><USER32> And the last status update says "Opera Mini for iPhone was officially submitted to the [app store]".

Although I find this hard to believe, signs point to Opera being late in updating the page. The time in Norway is 2:15 AM, but still...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Scrolling requires repeated swipes. Links and buttons require multiple taps to activate, and some cannot be activate at all. (stay signed in checkbox on myOpenID). Initial zoom levep is useless with unreadable text. Zoomed in level feels too zoomed in without ability to adjust.

But worst of all, the text area editor is custom--no autocorrection. This comment has takem far too long to edit.

In short, a really poorly executed app that should not have been approved, save for the crapstorm banning it would have caused.

<comment><USER33> Sorry for the typos--i was correcting as I went along if you can believe that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> For those that want to test for Opera Mini without the iphone: <http://www.opera.com/mobile/demo/>

Also, don't forget to add the user agents: [http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-with-opera- mini...](http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-with-opera-mini-in- mind/)

</comment><comment><USER35> I wonder if Apple keeps ambiguous apps like this on hold for when they really need a PR win. Maybe we'll see Google Voice next?

<comment><USER36> 20 days isn't that long though. Just think about the time it takes to get anything approved by the government...

<comment><USER37> The iPad + OS 4.0 backed up the approval process. We submitted before Opera, took about 14 days. Previously it's been about 5-7 days for new apps as Apple has been making a lot of improvements.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> USA: it's in the app store: [http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/opera-mini-web- browser/id3637...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/opera-mini-web- browser/id363729560?mt=8)

</comment><comment><USER38> Opera: Irrelevant on yet another platform.

Opera mini is great on a normal phone, but silly and pointless on a platform with with a real browser like the iPhone OS and Android.

<comment><USER39> No, not really.

Not everybody has great broadband mobile connections.

Android has a very good browser with WiFi, but it is totally useless with my Edge connection. Opera on the other hand is amazingly fast with any connection I have tested.

YMMV

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Big question then, can you embed Opera as the browser in your native app just as you can Safari?

<comment><USER41> I don't think so, unless Opera Software gives you the sources.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I've just visited acid3.acidtests.org. That was funny on several levels :)

</comment><comment><USER43> What are plans for iPad version? Would love tabs for the browser.

</comment><comment><USER44> Now its time for Chrome!

<comment><USER16> Opera complements Safari in a sense. It's an app to browse with on the ancient networks with bad reception. Chrome might conflict too much with MobileSafari's core functionality, so it would really be a miracle if it was approved.

\+ Does Google even want to compete there? Chrome on the desktop may have some strategic value beyond spreading the Google brand, but is there anything exceptional made 'the Google way' in the Android browser?

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Firefox mobile next?

<comment><USER15> Unlikely. Opera Mini works by doing all the rendering on the server-side, and then sending the pre-rendered website to the client. It's not actually a browser, so much as an app that gets screenshots from a server-side browser.

Firefox, on the other hand, would be a real browser, running Javascript rendering and Gecko on the phone itself, which would not be allowed.

That said, I don't understand why anyone would want Firefox anyway. The iPhone's limited memory and CPU would likely make Firefox nearly unusable, while extensions would eat away at what little free space was left. Firefox isn't optimized for the mobile space, and I can't think of any features it would provide that would make it a better choice than Safari (or, on Android, the built-in WebKit browser).

<comment><USER46> what about encrypted/secured pages?

<comment><USER47> The connection is only encrypted between the web site and Opera's servers, and Opera's servers and your phone. Opera's servers see all the data in its unencrypted form. From their FAQ[1]:

 _Is there any end-to-end security between my handset and — for example — paypal.com or my bank?_

No. If you need full end-to-end encryption, you should use a full Web browser such as Opera Mobile.

Opera Mini uses a transcoder server to translate HTML/CSS/JavaScript into a more compact format. It will also shrink any images to fit the screen of your handset. This translation step makes Opera Mini fast, small, and also very cheap to use. To be able to do this translation, the Opera Mini server needs to have access to the unencrypted version of the Web page. Therefore no end- to-end encryption between the client and the remote Web server is possible.

[1]<http://www.opera.com/mobile/help/faq/#security>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> They must've planned this as a way to placate pissed off app developers.

<comment><USER45> They don't give a crap about the developers or what the developers think about them.

<comment><USER48> Then why would they invest millions, if not billions, in creating, enhancing, and supporting developer tools?

Obviously they only do so to benefit themselves, but it's quite clear from their actions that Apple does care about developers.

<comment><USER45> Put it this way: they don't care about what the developers have to say about their platform or their policies and they assume that whatever minority of developers has left their platform will be replaced by an army of new ones. I mean, how many people have actually dropped their development for the iPhone/iPad? Have you noticed it?

<comment><USER49> out of my friends (who develop for the iPhone)? One or two.

Most are still staying onboard (maybe... 25 or so).

Don't forget this is the internet; like most things the disgruntled developers will be the most vocal. That doesn't _necessarily_ make them a majority - <USER3> even a large minority.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> My original guess (on the first day) for when it would be approved was pretty close; I was two days off.

<comment><USER51> congratufuckinglations</comment></comment>