Ask HN: How do you develop internal motivation? - <AUTHOR> I believe I have a problem with internal motivation, in the sense that I have none, or very little at best. This doesn't lead me to, what one might call, "procrastination". Rather, it just makes me idle; content in doing nothing. I say "content", but obviously I wouldn't be asking this question if I didn't see it as an issue!
However, I don't just sit around doing nothing, a lot of the time. I attribute this to external motivators. This applies, as far as I can see, to almost every aspect of my life. To give an example: I know how to cook, but if I'm cooking for myself, I'll probably be lazy -- I might just eat something straight out of the packet! -- but if I'm cooking for myself and others, I'll go to the trouble of making something good.
I've recognised this in me for some time; the reason I bring it up now is because it's related to procrastination -- which was a hot topic on HN a couple of days ago -- and because I'm interested in doing a PhD. That requires enormous amounts of internal motivation, for several years straight, when there's little-to-no external motivation. I see that this could therefore be my downfall.
How does one develop and maintain internal motivation? What can one do, for example, to renew their enthusiasm if/when it starts to dwindle? Besides "passion" and "enthusiasm", what are other people's internal motivators? <comment><USER2> I've felt similar to you for a long time, but have recently (over the last year) had a fundamental shift. I'm loathe to ever recommend self-help books (I used to work in publishing, and I know how most of those books get written. Hint: Not by the author, and not based on real research.), but I'd really recommend picking up Atomic Habits.

The big aha moment for me was in the separation of systems and goals. I always struggled with the same kind of procrastination as you--if there was a pressing need, I'd rise to the occasion, but otherwise was content with the minimum--despite having large ambitions (am also strongly considering a PhD, weirdly enough). The book does a nice job of explaining goals as things that are distant, and so can really never be "pressing" or rewarding short term, whereas systems can have a pulling effect i.e. I don't have one singular side project with a schedule that I'm constantly failing to hit, I have a system in which I write code for fun for at least an hour each morning, during which time I let myself listen to new music and try random ideas while I have coffee.

I might not hit peak productivity, but I do it everyday because I enjoy it. I look forward to it when I wake up. The system pulls me in, and as a result, I'm actually way more productive overall.

<comment> alok-g >> Hint: Not by the author, and not based on real research.

I would like to hear more on this. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I find that internal motivation is mostly a myth, that is, the part where people expect to just have infinite drive out of nowhere.

The cooking analogy is good but here's an IMO better one - would you make a movie if you knew for certain nobody would ever watch it? I wouldn't.

You want to get a PhD - why? Is the PhD a mountain to climb or is it a pair of boots that will let you scale a mountain? Both answers are legit, but I think you do need to agree with yourself on one.

Motivation ex nihilo doesn't exist. Humans are goal-driven and averse to spending time on teleologically neutral things (enjoyment of the activity itself is, of course, a legit end on its own).

<comment><USER4> Internal motivation feels a little like fascination.

I do a lot of things that nobody will notice, that give me nothing, because there's an element of experimentation to it. To use the cooking analogy, it's like trying to replace butter in a recipe with margarine, making a french omelet as soft as possible, or pulling a perfect espresso.

I wouldn't say these things are enjoyable in themselves, but they scratch a curiosity.

One trick is to have different steps to try to follow. For example, I was very motivated to do a startup, because there were step by step instructions on what to do, and doing these steps consistently would result in becoming a billionaire.

It's an absurd idea and it didn't work, but it went much, much further than I expected, and it was fascinating to see how far it could go. Same with blackjack/poker - it's grindy and repetitive, but it's motivating to see whether the theory checks out.

<comment><USER5> Having an defined approach or steps to follow is a thing that actually demotivates me. I think it's why I don't cook a lot even though I can. I could follow defined steps and get an expected outcome but I'm just not motivated to do that.

I got disinterested in chess when knowing that all the best players have most moves memorized.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Make sure you get enough sleep. I don't know of a single bigger correlate to lack of motivation than lack of sleep.

When you do feel motivation and work on something for some time, leave something undone at the end to pick up on. Something small to get the ball rolling.

Look after the big issues in your life. If there's something looming or lurking, you may procrastinate (which might look like enthusiasm for a diversion) but only at a surface level, like your brain is fidgeting trying to keep your mind off the big bad thing(s).

For something like a PhD, I think it's unusual for internal motivation to last. Most people I know who've completed did it to get it done, rather than relying on internal motivation. They were so sick of the material by the end that enthusiasm had worn away, like a mouthful of food chewed for too long.

<comment><USER7> Agree 100% with the lack of sleep. One night of bad sleep (4-5 hours) wrecks all my next day.

Maximize your health first, before setting goals. Sleep > Nutrition > Exercise, thou they're deeply correlated; try to fix them in that order.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Unabomber's [1] writings introduced me to the concept of "artificial needs". All the things that you list are artificial needs - wanting nice meal when eating from the packaging satisfies you just fine, doing a PhD when there's really no need to do it etc. He explained that, since in the West all our real needs are meet with ease, we've now entered an era of deformation, where people try to find meaning in their lives via artificial goals (just like the ones you've mentioned). However, our monkey brain can't be easily fooled into doing bullshit busywork just to provide "meaning" \- hence your problems with procrastination. I find life is much easier when I accept this and don't strive to do things just for the sake of doing them.

[1] He wasn't the original author of this observation as far as I recall.

</comment><comment><USER9> You predicament reminds me of The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin. The tendencies are based around whether you respond or don't respond to expectations, and whether the expectations are internal or external. From how you've described yourself, you sound like the common "obliger" type: responds well to external expectations, not so much to internal expectations. If that sounds like you, try finding ways to introduce external expectations for the things you'd like to do but don't. E.g., if you wanted to start working out, you'd be better off getting a trainer who expects you to show up than just telling yourself that you'll go to the gym.

It's not a scientific framework, but I think it's a helpful mental model all the same.

</comment><comment><USER10> You have to be always drunk. That's all there is to it—it's the only way. So as not to feel the horrible burden of time that breaks your back and bends you to the earth, you have to be continually drunk.

But on what? Wine, poetry or virtue, as you wish. But be drunk.

And if sometimes, on the steps of a palace or the green grass of a ditch, in the mournful solitude of your room, you wake again, drunkenness already diminishing or gone, ask the wind, the wave, the star, the bird, the clock, everything that is flying, everything that is groaning, everything that is rolling, everything that is singing, everything that is speaking. . .ask what time it is and wind, wave, star, bird, clock will answer you: "It is time to be drunk! So as not to be the martyred slaves of time, be drunk, be continually drunk! On wine, on poetry or on virtue as you wish."

(Charles Baudelaire, 1821-1867)

</comment><comment><USER11> \- Basic: Get enough sleep and exercise (just a 30min walk each day is good enough)

\- Basic: To not get tired during the day I have a good breakfast (I have overnight (steel cut) oats with fruit)

\- Intermediate: Understand the root of your procrastination. Procrastination = low-self esteem in the moment and/or making a task bigger than it needs to be. For example you approach a task and you doubt your abilities straightaway (e.g. write a paper) and you may even not see the task at hand can be divided into chunks based on what you know you can do (e.g. topic sentences for each planned paragraph in a section OR topic sentence for each section in a paper) and/or practice/learn to get better (e.g. put some sample data into a vis library)

\- Advanced: Identify and handle self-esteem issues. An app called 'Woebot' I find really useful in helping recognise cognitive distortions that lead to being too hard on yourself

Finally, if all the above are down, but you still need a kick. Kick yourself. I have moments where I feel a bit doubt-y for no good reason and just do what I need to do. I feel 15min of focused work (i.e. no distractions) will get you into the zone. If not take a break and break your pattern of thinking in the moment—don't get sucked into where procrastination takes you.

</comment><comment><USER12> I don't think you're lazy. It sounds like you're probably just avoiding frustration.

I think we're creatures of habit. If you create a habit you will naturally have the desire to keep doing the thing, even if it doesn't give you pleasure right away. If on top of that you add a little curiosity and a bit of desire to keep getting better you will quickly feel the need to do something with regularity.

In fact I'd argue most things worth doing will be quite unsatisfactory for a time until you start feeling pleasure. A musical instrument? Programming? Painting? Writing? Sports? A new language? Cooking? Yeah you will be crap at all those until you aren't.

The trick to getting started is having the willpower and the tolerance to frustration to keep doing the thing through the initial hardships.

I struggled a lot with recognizing frustration in myself when I was younger which made learning to tolerate it even more difficult. Once you start feeling frustrated you have to remind yourself that everything is ok and that you will figure it out. You will never be immune to frustration, but by exposing yourself to frustration gradually your tolerance will get better.

</comment><comment><USER13> There is a way to develop internal motivation - in my opinion it is one part the realisation that you want to be motivated and the other part putting in the hard yards to build habits. For the first part I always refer to the concept of the elephant driver as a reminder.

"NYU psychologist Jonathan Haidt uses a lovely analogy to explain both: the emotional side is the elephant, the rational side is the rider. The rider of the elephant looks like he or she is in charge, but when there's a disagreement between the elephant and the rider, the elephant usually wins.

Chip and Dan Heath's superb book, Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard, builds on this analogy and talks about directing the rider (rational brain: responsible for planning and direction, but can get paralyzed overthinking things) and motivating the elephant (emotional brain: prefers quick gratification over long term, but gets things done). Numerous experiments show that the rider can get exhausted trying to motivate the elephant and needs time to recover. This is why, if you're trying to eat healthily while on the road, you tend to make bad choices at the end of a long day and opt for that extra glass of beer."

For the second part use mobile apps/smart watch to help you build habits. Being an unashamed apple user I rely on streaks to be my habit builder but there are many similar applicatons out there. Gamify your own life. Because at the end of the day life is a game. And if you want to get to the next level you have to play it.

<comment><USER14> Lots of good pointers here. The elephant analogy blew my mind! Somebody on the internet said life is pointless if we do not set ourselves these goals to aim for. It is down to us on how well defined these goals are and how we track our progress against them. Too ambitious or vague, and we've set ourselves up for failure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> A PhD has basically zero value (probably net negative) unless you want to go in to academia for the rest of your life and retire as the head of department at an Iowa community college, so double check you really want to do that and have that kind of life?

You need to double check your mental/emotional and physical health. Are you getting sleep? What are your serum vitamin D levels? Do you wake up and run a 5k every morning? Have you travelled to a new or slightly dangerous place on the opposite side of the world in the last 6-12 months to reset your beliefs about the world? - These are the type of questions you need to be asking. When you have this stuff figured out and you feel alive, motivation will not be an issue.

<comment><USER2> I think this is true of most PhD programs, but I think that in certain fields—lab-centric sciences, for example—doing a PhD isn't a complete waste.

There maybe better alternatives (maybe a Master's or a community bio lab or something), but when you need access to a lab and resources to do research, the university provides some value.

Then again, is it $150k worth of value? Probably not

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Here's how I handle lack of motivation mechanically:

\- I spend time asking why, and allow myself to answer that question before rushing into an action

\- I allow myself to answer "I'm tired, I want to do nothing"

These two help me work on goals and rhythm. Goals are where you intentionally want to go, the why. But if you don't have useful habits, you won't get there. That's rhythm.

Ignore goals, and you might work a lot, but have no control in where you're going. That might lead to feelings of helplessness. Ignore rhythm, and you might not learn to do the work. Instead of actually working towards where you want to go, you might juggle goals, and dream about the future.

</comment><comment><USER17> > I know how to cook, but if I'm cooking for myself, I'll probably be lazy -- > I might just eat something straight out of the packet! -- but if I'm cooking > for myself and others, I'll go to the trouble of making something good.

You do have internal motivation in this scenario. You are internally motivated to impress and/or do nice things for others.

> I'm interested in doing a PhD. That requires enormous amounts of internal > motivation, for several years straight, when there's little-to-no external > motivation. I see that this could therefore be my downfall.

Why are you interested in doing a PhD? It sounds like maybe something that you like the idea of, more than something that you actually want to do. Why not focus on the things that you do actually want to do?

> How does one develop and maintain internal motivation? What can one do, for > example, to renew their enthusiasm if/when it starts to dwindle?

One of the key things is to maintain good emotional health. So things like sleep, exercise, diet, etc. This won't make you motivated to do things that you're uninterested in, but it may help you to maintain motivation for things that you are.

<comment><USER18> > You do have internal motivation in this scenario. You are internally > motivated to impress and/or do nice things for others.

'For others' is definitionally external motivation, no?

<comment><USER17> Its external motivation to do the cooking. But is itself internal motivation I think.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> You cannot develop internal motivation. In my experience, when you have some vision that you are excited about, motivation is not a problem. That vision can take many forms, but it's often some concrete outcome that you understand how to accomplish, and desire to achieve (for whatever reason).

<comment><USER20> I completely agree on vision point. every indivisual need to have clear vision on what you want to be in coming 1 month/year or couple of years. Good to have both short term and long term goals. achieving shortterm goals motivate for longterm goals. I give more importance to personal than professional.

I feel motivated when I look at my goals. Definitely I do sometimes feel down start thinking it is impossible to achieve. For such days I prepared list of things I achieved so far and I am grateful for. It can be as simple as the day I got independent and started earning, Bought new jewellery to my mom etc. These days are very special and bring lot of joy and inspiration to perform better and work toward my future goals.

Also never compare my journey with other people. everyone's journey is different. Having few common things doesn't mean you both are same with same level of capacities. each person's tolerance, will power, IQ different. This understanding made me to not get demotivated by looking at some peer achievements.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I don't think you're not motivated. For example, I feel the same when cooking. In fact, one of your motivators might be that you need to do things for others or else that task has no meaning.

I took an exam called career leader a while ago. Like one of those professional strengths, exams. It provided a good framework to think about this.

A few motivators the exam ranks you on are things like "prestige", "altruism", "autonomy", "recognition", "lifestyle", "security" ..etc. you then get your results with which of those attributes you score highest on. Ultimately,I think it comes down to what you value more. You should then really question how what you do aligns with those motivators and optimize for the tasks that put your motivators ahead.

Here's a sample report that has them all listed, and framed it better for me: [https://www.hec.ca/etudiants/soutien-ressources/gestion- carr...](https://www.hec.ca/etudiants/soutien-ressources/gestion- carriere/services-et-ateliers/careerleader/exemple-rapport-careerleader.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER22> I get this too, and I think it has a lot to do with where your imagination tends to go.

If you often imagine negative outcomes, such as the negative judgement that you might receive if you served 2-minute noodles at a dinner party, then your sole motivation will be to avoid these sorts of outcomes. Life becomes about hazard detection. The anxiety that comes with this can obscure your 'true' interests to the point where you are not even sure what they are anymore.

Where does your mind turn when there is no sense of threat? If you bring yourself to imagine positive outcomes, then so long as they are realistic and accompanied by a strategy, then it is natural to be motivated to realise them. Failure to create a compelling future could just be considered a failure of the imagination.

I'd really recommend the book "Psychocybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz for more on this sort of stuff.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm doing a PhD right now. There are actually a LOT of external motivators: group meetings motivate you each week, posters and presentations motivate you each year, and publications motivate you the whole time. You also get some motivation from your peers and future career prospects. There's also the thesis proposal and defense.

This all said, I ABSOLUTELY relate to you feeling "flat" or "complacent" or "content". You might feel like you have no inner fire, that you're just a Pavlov dog salivating at the world's treats. Here's three things I've kept in mind for myself:

1) Health is absolutely key (as others have already noted)

2) Keep your head above the water. I'm resorting to a cheesy self-help metaphor, but if you're constantly receiving external motivators, you're going to lose a sense of how you're feeling.

3) If you feel a spark to try something, but then lose that spark, maybe keep going for a bit. Everything has a learning curve, and the first steps are often more boring.

But also I try to remember that productivity is not necessarily a virtue. You can always optimize yourself just a little bit more. Productivity obsession can just as easily be a symptom of my ego or my narcissism. I think this is a big part of self-help stuff. Marie Kondo doesn't just sell cleaning strategies, she sells PERSONAL TRANSFORMATION.

Basically, make a couple changes if necessary, but I don't think you need to panic if you're not obsessed with personal accomplishment. That could be a good thing!

</comment><comment><USER24> Probably there's no easy answer. I guess if you could think yourself into getting motivated you'd already do that.

Some things that help me:

\- right environment. If you want a PhD it's probably good idea to join some kind of research group you will feel good being part of or advisor you get with on very well. For the record I don't have a PhD but both of those things made quite a big difference for me when I was learning stuff throughout high school/university (though this is something I've realized quite late). Judging by how you put more effort when cooking for other, I guess you'd also put more effort when learning with others.

\- setting realistic expectations. Sometimes it may be a good idea to lower your standards, for example change "cook healthy meal every day" to "cook healthy meal once a week". I'm a perfectionist so it helps me to say something like "OK, maybe I won't write a great design doc for the new thing my team is working but design something where X and Y work well but Z and T are not working so well". Often it turns out Z and T are not so important or that I can do iterative improvements on them

\- getting bored from time to time. Planning to "waste" a day (though it's better to do this not in front of computer).

</comment><comment><USER25> Read the Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin.

It speaks specifically to this, and basically says if you are motivated by external forces, that's how you're wired and you should capitalize on it... it is a waste of time to try get 'internally' motivated. A lot of people are this way, and there is nothing wrong with it.

I liken it to a car that runs on gas... retrofitting it to run on diesel (or electric) is counter-productive... just tune it up so it efficient at burning gas.

</comment><comment><USER26> > "I know how to cook, but if I'm cooking for myself, I'll probably be lazy"

> "How does one develop and maintain internal motivation?"

> "... Besides "passion" and "enthusiasm" ..."

Perhaps it's an unwarranted bias on my part, but I cringe whenever I hear 'passion' brought up as the answer in this context, for this reason: it seems to me there is a distinction between __monkey and user, __e.g. the hedonistic monkey that drives us towards the easiest dopamine hits and the user that can override the hollow desires and moves us in a direction of actual fulfillment. The user can be passionate and it won 't make a lick of difference if you're still letting the monkey sit in the driver's seat.

Assuming this metaphor makes sense, how does one put the user more in control? In my experience becoming conscience of this push-pull -- daily, hourly -- makes the most difference. Then it is a matter of learning, training yourself, to become responsive to the user. During this process I've found it is important to focus on mentally rewarding yourself for improvements and not fall into continually chastising yourself for 'not doing enough,' etc.

</comment><comment><USER27> Consider building a tolerance for work in the absence of motivation.

My experience is that the sense of deeper motivation you are looking for follows action, not the other way around.

</comment><comment><USER28> You just gotta find something you love. If you're passionate about what you're studying, you'll look forward to doing it.

Internal motivation basically = being passionate about something.

Everyone's passionate about something.

<comment><USER29> I disagree with this. Passion is the outcome of ability and achievement not the cause. If you wait to be passionate about what you need to do you'll be waiting a long time. You need to do the hard work and then the passion follows, not the other way around.

<comment><USER30> > Passion is the outcome of ability and achievement not the cause.

I doubt that's the case. For one, there's plenty of people who are excellent at their jobs, but who dislike them. Also, there's plenty of people who are passionate about things that they are terrible at.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> There could be a lot of solutions to your problem, depending on what personally motivates you.

I personally develop internal motivation by putting myself in situations where I structurally do the correct thing. When I was living by myself, I'd cook a ton of healthy food on Sundays. That meant that it was always easier for me to eat healthy than it was to order out. I've also spent a lot of time asking myself what type of work I like to do. I like working on things that help people, and I managed to work at a company where working on the core business feels like the work I want to do.

But I'm not you. You need to look inside first and ask yourself what causes you to act and when you avoid it. Going through this kind of list might help: [https://www.indiehackers.com/post/questions-to-ask- yourself-...](https://www.indiehackers.com/post/questions-to-ask-yourself- before-starting-9813f617b3)

It sounds like you might be extrinsically motivated, based on your cooking example. You would need to find ways to continually hold yourself accountable. For instance, joining a Mastermind group (where you meet once a week and give your updates on your progress on something) would give you a reason to try to make progress every week. People who have gone to grad school can comment on any extrinsic motivation you might get from the program - I imagine your advisor would have some thoughts about that, but I don't know how involved advisors are.

Maybe you prefer having a sense of progress. You could split your work into smaller milestones, and then work to achieve each of the milestones.

You could also try the Jerry Seinfeld "Don't break the chain" method - [https://www.writersstore.com/dont-break-the-chain-jerry- sein...](https://www.writersstore.com/dont-break-the-chain-jerry-seinfeld/) has more info.

</comment><comment><USER32> What has been helpful for me is the group of friends I usually hang out with. They are all highly intelligent achievers and as a result, there is always this peer pressure on me to do better. We are close like brothers and are supportive of each other though. That turns the pressure into a positive nurturing force.

<comment><USER33> This is one thing that I've struggled with during the pandemic - I realized how much I relied on friends/classmates/colleagues to motivate and challenge me. It's just not the same over Zoom unfortunately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Apparently deep inside you consider your needs to be less important than other people's and equate your, well, survival with approval from others.

An interesting thing about motivation is that if you start looking into it you may realize that you may not need it. First, motivation doesn't do any real work, it only prods you toward doing it. To achieve that it creates an emotional tension between "now" and "then" that is supposed to push you toward the goal. Is this tension really helpful?

Could it push you too hard? Could it instead stiffen you if things do not go according to plan? And what is the drive behind it? Isn't it fear? And doesn't the tension takes extra energy you may otherwise use? The time spent to develop motivation to do something is time spent not doing that something.

</comment><comment><USER35> I find that if you're truly passionate about what you regularly do, there will be times that you burn out. That's when you switch to doing something else, traveling or learning something tangentially.

But eventually I then take steps to get back to moving forward. I'm from the "Stay Hungry" camp of motivation to progress forward.

Plus there's nothing like the clock to remind you that time is wasting. The one thing that none of us can buy more of is time. We can only rent someone else's time and with varied degree of success. But since our lives are finite and the list can be long, there's motivation to continue to check things off that list before time runs out.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have thoughts/daydreams/impulses that I used to dismiss as frivolous or unimportant. E.g. I love to research and read up on new synthesizers. I'm a bit obsessed. When I'm in a good coffee shop or am baking, I often daydream about having my own coffee shop. Now, this is not to say I should open a coffee shop and drop 10k on new synth gear. BUT... it's worth investigating why these impulses occur. (Do I want to create? Make customers happy? ...) If I can tap into urges that occur spontaneously, then I can reframe and leverage those to motivate myself.

</comment><comment><USER37> Are you even interested in the PhD or in the subject itself? I think if not, then no internal motivation works.

I tend to think of myself as a really internally motivated person, as I have a various hobbies that I cultivate that requires disciplines in muscular and mental side. But I am interested in all of those hobbies, and I never dread the moment where I have to train, practice, or study related to those subjects.

No end goal in sight for me, it is purely for internal enjoyment. Maybe one day create a youtube/instagram channel for fun and showoff but that's about it.

</comment><comment><USER38> As a starting point, try to accept that you find comfort in idleness. Be ok with sitting and doing nothing. It sounds like your anxiety is being driven by your guilt in not achieving enough.

</comment><comment><USER39> What I find is that my psyche is generally in one of two states: being short on energy and therefore needing to rest and recuperate (mentally, or emotionally, not necessarily physically), or having extra energy and therefore feeling motivated to spend it on things that are fun or interesting. If you're lacking motivation, it may just be that you need a break (including from the part of you that thinks you _should_ feel more motivated). Motivation will present itself when it's ready.

</comment><comment><USER40> I am lazy person and that's actually my internal motivation. I want to complete things as quickly as possible so that I have plenty of time to procrastinate before I start the next task.

But one thing that is crucial is to do what you love and what you are good at. Then you feel empowered and motivated to complete the task.

Also, as others have noted, sleep seems to be highly important and in that sense, besides a healthy amount of night sleep, I find power naps really helping me to get through the day.

</comment><comment><USER41> Well, my therapist might ask, "what is this procrastination doing for you?" How do you feel when I say, well, just do it. Angry? Sad? Why? You might notice you're getting back at your parents for something. Totally reaching here, but the Oedipal tendency, obv in figurative sense, is strong in mothers. Maybe your mom is afraid you'll be too successful and is unconsciously threatening to take away her love when you get excited about a project. Idk man just spitballing here.

</comment><comment><USER42> Incorporate an aspect of "play".

Cooking -- what's the craziest/funnest thing I can make with ingredients at home.

Studying -- allow myself to go down rabbit holes and explore them thoroughly

Coding -- build something fun, even though there might be urgent work on my plate.

Also allow myself to do nothing. This is much harder, because doing something still feels productive.

Do these activities as a way to recharge and refresh. If I find myself doing these too frequently, it's time to reflect and perhaps make a larger change.

</comment><comment><USER43> I think my primary motivation is pretty much limited to video games, mating instinct, food and shiny new things. maybe singing in the shower. the rest is just social pressure. As for how to develop it, i don't have a clue. I think it goes beyond the malleability of the brain to develop new primary motivation. But secondary motivation can often be good enough. true, you won't love what you're doing but it's not necessary to love your job.

</comment><comment><USER44> Motivation is an emotional spark; you need to use that to create structures that enforce discipline, the logs that keeps the fire going. I like this blog post which really breaks down motivation vs. discipline:

[https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you- need...](https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is- discipline/)

</comment><comment><USER45> I've been thinking a lot about this Nietzsche quote lately:

> You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom you > shine?

This has made me question not a lack of internal motivation, but an abundance of external motivation. i.e. examining what ways I am motivated by how others will perceive me.

I am trying to appreciate the "eating straight from the packet" state of mind.

</comment><comment><USER46> You need to trick yourself. Tell yourself you'll only do 15 mins work per hour and lounge for the other 45. That will give you a short-term goal to aim for (the 45 mins) and you'll get there the quicker you do 15 mins work. But once you get started that 15 mins becomes 2 hours and you forget. Sometime you just need the momentum of getting started.

</comment><comment><USER47> To me by far the best thing is to have an enduring, joyful, worthwhile, good purpose in life, that drives everything else (including maintaining one's health, balance etc), about which I have written a lot at my simple site (no JS etc): [http://lukecall.net](http://lukecall.net) for example [http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854588981.html](http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854588981.html)

Also, some related prior discussions. Note that this is an attempt at collecting useful comments that could relate, NOT at an insinuation that the OP is lazy, a procrastinator, or other. But some comments were good, like finding balance, direction, etc.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23072333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23072333) ("Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help (gist.github.com)")

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22919697](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22919697) ("ask hn: how do i overcome mental laziness?")

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22124489](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22124489) ("Procrastination is about managing emotions, not time (bbc.com")

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22096571](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22096571) ("Ask HN: I don't want to be a worker any more I want to be a professional")

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20930439](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20930439) ("how do you keep your programming motivation up?")

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903886](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18903886) "Ask HN: How do you motivate yourself to keep working on a project? "

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19777976](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19777976) "ask hn: how do you stay disciplined in the long run?"

(And I have, actually, put a lot at my web site, like, for finding a family- like community almost wherever you go, search this page for "no one has to be alone": [http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854581716.html](http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854581716.html) .)

For what it may be worth.

</comment><comment><USER48> Reduce your dopamine levels. If your live a monastic life you will find many things to be interesting.

On the other side, a world of distraction and constant stimuli will create a reference level against which it is hard to compete.

</comment><comment><USER49> Health - meaning exercise, sleep, and nutrition is key.

The next most important- direction. If you can't get excited about where you're going, you sure as hell won't get there quick.

</comment><comment><USER50> Concentrating on something for a long period is easy if it brings you fulfilment, therefore if you study what most interests you, you'll achieve excellent results.

</comment><comment><USER51> By reading Stephen Pressfield's "The War of Art" and realizing that I can decide to motivate myself anytime, anywhere if I want to achieve something.

</comment><comment><USER52> I believe maybe you could be missing a "traumatic" life experience.

I know a guy who spent 2 years in a call center without finishing high school. Today he works as a full stack developer and even complete uni.

He says when he feels lazy, he remembers his life in the call center and the motivation suddenly appears. I have something similar since I work with my Dad doing deliveries and we had to wake up at 4:30 am.

When you get too comfortable, you don't have the need to do better.

It is no surprise that (most) world-class people came from poor backgrounds and had to fight for everything they have today (not excluding other backgrounds). They now how terrible life can be and are not willing to pay the price of laziness, they know it first hand.

TLDR: You need to have been in a really bad spot in your life, to know the true cost of laziness and not taking opportunities.

<comment> alok-g It's the other way round for some. Bad experiences can kill motivation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> You don't need motivation, you need discipline. People don't need motivation to clean their teeth, they just do it.

Make doing things when you don't feel like it a habit.

</comment><comment><USER54> I track my numbers. Tracking, maintaining and improving any number gives me tremendous motivation. (This works for me but it may not work for you!)

</comment><comment><USER55> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7kh8pNRWOo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7kh8pNRWOo)

</comment><comment><USER56> I often do stuff because I can't stand the feeling of regret. Could fear be a motivator for you?

</comment><comment><USER57> Do something that actually matters. Making a real difference is motivating.

</comment><comment><USER58> Get anxiety disorder. Seems to fear you into working.

</comment><comment><USER59> Get tested for Vit D3 and sleep well and sleep early.

</comment><comment><USER60> This is because you haven't found something that genuinely interests you.

How do you know you found it?

Time will fly. You will not think about doing that thing at all. You might dread going to sleep because you want to keep working on it. You want to talk about nothing else. You are happy and satisfied despite the hard work and difficulties.

For me it has always been creating technology first and engaging with people (customers). I discovered the second one later in life as I had to learn to sell the products I was creating. It turned out that, for me, the combination of creating the technology and then engaging with customers was my utopia. I worked so hard I ended-up in the hospital a couple of times from exhaustion and dehydration (don't do that). I really enjoyed organizing and running our trade shows and customer presentations all over the world. In fact, I ended-up craving that level of contact as a way to balance the engineering side.

Not sure how old you are. There are phases to everyone's lives. How you think of the world when you are younger and single is very different from when you are older and have your own family. Different yet from when you have experienced some success and failures. And, sadly, different yet as, later in life, you experience friends and family pass. What was important at the start of the journey quickly ceases to be important later in life for various reasons, experience, pragmatism or perspective.

In other words, there is no easy answer.

You have to consider that you might not be in a field that stimulates you enough to give you that natural joy that requires no conscious effort. I'll leave it to others to suggest how you might engage in a search for that unique thing that meshes perfectly with your DNA. I was lucky in that I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted to do and what I enjoyed doing very early in life. For me there is not real difference between work and play. I don't care about hours of the day or holidays. Other than hanging out with my kids and family, if I am awake I am doing what I love, which happens to be my work. Still, work-life balance is crucially important.

I also teach my kids that we can't always do what we want and that we actually have to learn --and force ourselves-- to do those things we don't want better and more efficiently than perhaps other things. In other words, if you are responsible for doing something you don't really like to do, be the best at it and get it done fast and well.

Two personal examples of this:

I hate shipping. By that I mean, putting things in boxes and doing the paperwork. This is particularly ugly when it comes to international shipping. And so, I made it a point to put in systems and tools in place to optimize and automate as much of this as possible...because I hate doing it but I must do it.

The big one was one of those "be careful what you wish for" examples. We decided to remodel our bathrooms. Wanting to save money I decided to do the work myself. I am no stranger to construction and quite capable, so that wasn't an issue, I could build a house from scratch. I would soon discover that crawling on the floor to tile two full bathrooms was, well, a nightmare and something I did not enjoy at all. The first couple of weeks were as painful as could be, as my body adapted to literally being on my hands and knees for eight+ hours per day. In order to get it done faster and correctly I bought the best professional tools and subscribed to a paid service that teaches you about this kind of remodeling and answers questions.

In this last case my kids knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that I hated --absolutely detested, with every cell in my body-- what I was doing. I dug a hole and I was the only one who could crawl out of it. Teaching moment. I had them help for a bit so they would learn and also understand what responsibility means, even in the face of something you detest. We got it done and it's architectural-magazine perfect. And I am glad it's over. I will NEVER do that again.

Anyhow, the point is, developing motivation for doing things you hate could be valuable. This is my experience and might not necessarily apply to everyone.

Explore and see what makes you tick. Don't assume you know what drives you until it is beyond obvious.

</comment><comment><USER61> Coffee

</comment><comment><USER62> discipline > motivation

</comment><comment><USER63> If you are particularly content in doing nothing, you may have schizoid personality disorder.

<comment><USER64> I understand why people is downvoting this, as we shouldn't be doing armchair diagnostics based on so little information, but it's worth mentioning that there are technical terms for diminished motivation disorders, which are indeed common for schizoid personality disorder. Search for abulia or anhedonia if you are interested in learning more about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> >I'm interested in doing a PhD

Are you interested in doing a PhD to do a PhD, or are you deeply interested in the subject area and doing a PhD is an avenue to explore it?

That's going to make all the difference. If you're doing it to add something to your resume it'll be a long, difficult and likely unrewarding journey.

<comment><USER66> I'm reminded of George Costanza, "I'd love to be a Civil War buff... What do you have to do to be a buff?"</comment></comment>


EFF Responds to Bird's Legal Threats to Boing Boing - <AUTHOR> https://boingboing.net/2019/01/11/flipping-the-bird.html <comment><USER2> OPG v Diebold suggests a countersuit under 502(f) would prevail in this case. (Disclaimer: I was a plaintiff in this case, we won, EFF were our lawyers.)

<comment><USER3> Only to the extent any damages are incurred as a result of removing or disabling access to the content, which hasn't happened. See 17 U.S.C. 512(f)(2) (emphasis mine):

(2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification, shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys' fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner's authorized licensee, or by a service provider, ___who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it._ __

<comment><USER2> The countersuit wouldn't be to quantify damages from its removal (since not removed) but rather a preliminary injunction seeking declarative relief that the takedown was found invalid.

<comment><USER3> I guess you could file a claim for injunctive relief in anticipation of a suit, but that sounds like a waste of time and attorney's fees IMO. Also, you can't counterclaim unless you are a defendant, and you don't need to counterclaim to have such a claim tossed anyway. All the defendant would have to do is file a 12(b)(6) motion (failure to state a claim) in response to the original pleading.

<comment><USER2> Please read OPG v Diebold, because that's what we did and won in federal court, establishing court precedent and resulting in hundreds of thousands of dollars of fines levied against Diebold.

<comment><USER3> I did read the decision. My opinion is that the action was poorly executed, unless the point was to prematurely expend time and effort in an attempt to make case law in the absence of Diebold actually instigating a suit. IMO the would-be defendants should have waited and filed a counterclaim and 12(b)(6) motion. Case law probably would have resulted this way as well.

Also in footnote 11, the court notes that "Plaintiffs appear to have conceded at oral argument that their claims for injunctive and declaratory relief are moot and that a decision on their claims for damages will be a sufficient adjudication of their rights."

According to the decision, plaintiffs asked for and received $5,185.50 in restitution and unspecified attorney's fees, which I suppose could have been in the hundreds of thousands range if you spent too much on attorneys. The "hundred of thousands" of dollars were the result of a settlement and were not ordered by the court.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> So, simple question, but: what _is_ the legal reason I, not a customer of Bird and having never signed an EULA in their app, can't just take a Bird scooter off the street and just keep it in my house, even as decoration without modifying it? What law protects a business model that relies on leaving property all around town, completely unencumbered? (I know about the police auctions, but that's not the question here.)

<comment><USER5> Wait til you learn about cars!

People literally leave them all around the city, for hours or even days at a time. Completely unencumbered as well, and taking up prime public space that could be used by the public in so many other ways. You just need a jack and a tow truck, you can go around collecting as many as you want and keep them. They've been abandoned after all, because someone has walked away from them.

(Obviously sarcasm, but as a non-car-owner I get a kick out of people freaking out about these scooters taking up public space. Meanwhile every street in the city is full of cars with one person in them and has two lanes of free or heavily subsidized parking. It's clearly a massively less efficient use of public space, and no one ever talks about that).

<comment><USER6> Car owners pay registration fees and and gas taxes for the privilege to use the public roadways. Bird and the like just dumped their property (which makes them money) on public right-of-ways without paying for the use like every other industry does.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, parent comment neglected the fact that drivers are paying via taxes and fees. Those may not be sufficient to pay for external costs, but that's how the roads are typically paid for.

<comment><USER8> You might be paying taxes and fees to license them but you could well have paid nothing to that city. I can drive through your city (unless you have tolls or entry passes, but the vast majority of cities don't have those). I can just use your streets for free.

<comment><USER7> There are federal, state and local taxes on transportation fuels. So sure, if you drive through the city without filling up your car there then you got a free ride on that city's roads, but not the state and interstate highways leading to it. But that's one of those things that averages out due to large numbers, and where it doesn't there is usually some rebalancing of revenues by government entities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This looks like a form-letter DMCA takedown thing (good tip-off: referring to Cory Doctorow as "one of your users") so while Boing Boing isn't wrong to refuse to honor it, making a galactic big deal out of the shock-and-awe caliber of their legal response has a weird feeling to it, sort of the same as Eric Raymond's "I'm your worst nightmare" response to a Microsoft recruiter form-email.

<comment><USER10> I wasn't familiar with the story of Microsoft and Eric Raymond, but I just went and read it. Man, that was very difficult to get through.

For others who haven't read it: [http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=208](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=208)

<comment><USER11> Yes, that was difficult indeed. But not, I think, for the reasons you mean:

 _FURTHER UPDATE: I had my serious, constructive converstation with Microsoft last year, when a midlevel exec named Steven Walli took me out to dinner at OSCON 2004 and asked, in so many words, "How can we not be evil?" And I told him — open up your file formats (including Word and multimedia), support open technical standards instead of sabotaging them, license your patents under royalty-free, paperwork-free terms._

 _I believe Steve Walli went back to his bosses and told them that truth. He is no longer with Microsoft, and what little he'll say about it hints that they canned him for trying to change their culture._

<comment><USER12> Stephen Walli actually is back with Microsoft these days :-)

It was a rather different time. Personally I wouldn't have been as rude or have named names but it wasn't unreasonable to have a bit of fun at Microsoft's expense. This was Microsoft's "Linux is a cancer" period when they even had a senior exec whose charter was basically going after Linux (among other things).

<comment><USER10> For someone who wasn't around for all of that fun, thank you for helping add a little context to his words.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I bet Bird's inventory is vanishing now that word is out, and they are legally flailing about to try it stop it in any way they can. Too bad I can't short them, it was a naive business model from the beginning.

</comment><comment><USER14> Phew, so many people would probably argue that a locked bike isn't my property once I leave it on the street.

After staying in Norway, where people leave MacBooks unattended, and doors and bikes unlocked, it riddles me how tolerant other societies are when it comes to theft.

</comment><comment><USER15> Anyone remembers Monster vs Blue Jeans Audio / Kurt Denke? When a bigger company tries to legally bullshit the small guy and it falls very very flat.

> Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it.

[https://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes- back](https://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-back)

</comment><comment><USER16> Anyone have leads on where to buy these at auction?

</comment><comment><USER17> Can anyone say what the common source of the impounding of these scooters is landlords, parking enforcement, business owners?

Couldn't any "dockless" transportation device technically be considered abandoned once a user get's off of it leaves it where it lies? In the absence of having agreements with the local municipality could this be a fatal flaw in the business model?

It seems like there could be an "incentivized" marketplace for the proactive impounding and subsequent auctioning of these no?

<comment><USER18> Sounds like a lot of cities are handling them like abandoned cars.

Honestly I'd love to find an auction with these.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Boing Boing should crowdfund some money to convert a bunch of scooters and give them away outside Bird HQ.

<comment><USER13> That would actually be illegal.

EDIT: Missed that you can buy them from impound lots - that would be legal. Converting one you found on the street would not.

<comment><USER19> Why? Assuming the scooters are being bought at auction from impound lots like the article says.

<comment><USER13> Ah, I didn't realize that the scooters can be legally obtained from an impound lot. Very clever!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Is there no way to countersue Bird Scooter for economic harm?

<comment><USER21> What economic harm have they caused?

<comment><USER22> They've caused Boing Boing to burn a bunch of lawyers' time for no good reason.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Can I take a (working) scooter on the street and use the 30 USD kit? After all, it's an item on the street. What legal action can Bird take? Just curious.. Can I take legal action if I throw my stuff around the street and then start taking legal action if someone re-uses it?

<comment><USER24> You're describing theft. Bird didn't abandon their scooter, they know where it is and intended for it to be there.

As noted in another thread here, something being left on the street doesn't mean it's legally abandoned, whether it's a car, a wallet, or an electric scooter.

Most jurisdictions require the (former) owner to intentionally relinquish ownership in order for something to be considered abandoned.

<comment><USER25> Quick question. If I start a business that used public streets as storagespace. Am I in the clear as long as I put GPS trackers in the boxes?

<comment><USER26> I think the law would be on your side regarding theft of the boxes. You still might be punished for misuse of public space.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> If wishing to hurt Bird someone could litter the town with look alike scooters that Are seemingly unlocked by the app but are modified to be extremely slow.

</comment><comment><USER28> It's like the Bird team has never heard of the Streisand Rffect before.

</comment><comment><USER29> Just discovered that boingboing has one of the only readable, reasonable privacy policies I've ever seen on a news site [https://boingboing.net/privacy](https://boingboing.net/privacy)

Its not perfect and I wish there was an ad/sponsored post/tracking free paid version, but it was refreshing.

Edit: has anyone ever seen one that just turns tracking off if you sign up? All I've ever seen is the removal of paywalls, sometimes ads, but never tracking

<comment><USER30> > has anyone ever seen one that just turns tracking off if you sign up?

Check out ars technica, I think they may offer that

<comment><USER29> I couldn't find such an option, where is it? Their policy looks pretty standard-creepy from all I could find

<comment><USER31> Yeah, and checked and couldn't find any mention of the feature outside of comments, which is weird, but I can confirm that when logged in and opening random articles, the only domains hit are arstechnica.com, arstechnica.net and cdn.arstechnica.net.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> "Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations."

George Orwell

<comment><USER33> Possibly spurious: see [http://blogs.umb.edu/quoteunquote/2012/09/25/even-if- it-look...](http://blogs.umb.edu/quoteunquote/2012/09/25/even-if-it-looks- sounds-walks-and-quacks-like-an-orwell-quote-it-still-might-not-be-an-orwell- quote/)

<comment><USER34> The attribution might be spurious; the insight isn't.

<comment><USER33> I thought the quote was pithy, but it didn't quite sound like Orwell to me (who I have read a lot of, though not recently). "What someone else doesn't want printed" is a formulation that doesn't quite mean _truth_; Orwell felt seriously about the journalist's responsibility to be truthful and it seemed like he might have made a finer distinction. Quick search and lo.

Orwell is claimed by partisans of all kinds due to his great reputation as a moral thinker and his willingness to criticize political actors & ideologies across the spectrum. Consequently his writings are often misquoted, misattributed or taken out of context. The "rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf" one is a classic example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I hate those scooters. Went running with some friends in San Jose a few days ago and they were scattered all over the sidewalks. A real hazard for pedestrians.

Hopefully cities will enforce strict rules against blocking sidewalks and confiscate any scooters left in unsafe spots.

<comment><USER36> In my neighborhood, while I do see the occasional scooter or bike share bike parked across the sidewalk, far more annoying are the cars parked in their "driveway" that block part or all of the sidewalk

<comment><USER37> That's illegal, though, for exactly that reason, so I'm not sure what your point is, other than that you have a problem with scofflaws in your neighborhood.

<comment><USER36> My point is that scooters are not new offenders (or even the worst offenders) of blocking the sidewalk, but no one complains about the cars, that's just accepted.

<comment><USER38> The cars parked across the sidewalk are individuals parking their car at home. Bird scooters littering the sidewalks is a business model. How do you not understand the difference?

<comment><USER36> If the homeowner left the scooter there would you feel better about it? What if it was his own personally owned scooter?

<comment><USER39> I still wouldn't be happy but yes, I would be _happier._ A resident homeowner/renter has far more right to utilize the public property in front of their residence than some [multi-]national corporation, just like residents have the right to vote for their representatives and the businesses don't.

I tolerate far worse externalities from my neighbors because they're my _neighbors_ and I want to minimize pointless conflict for their emotional benefit as well as mine. Business that create externalities in my neighborhood for the sake of corporate profit, on the other hand, can either pay me and my neighbors in cash to deal with the externalities (with a decent profit margin for _our time and effort_ ) or they can go f __* themselves.

<comment><USER35> That is incorrect. Ownership of private property grants no special rights over the use of adjacent _public_ property.

<comment><USER39> Reread what I wrote. _A resident homeowner /renter_ \- that's literally the definition of a town, county, or state constituency. Living there (which only a _human_ can do) grants you special rights to decide how that public property will be utilized, developed, and regulated by voting in representatives.

<comment><USER35> No that's not how it works. Blocking public sidewalks is illegal (although inconsistently enforced) in almost every city, regardless of who lives there.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The prisoners fighting wildfires in California - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34285658 <comment><USER2> One of the hardest part with integrating former prisoners back into regular life is not only the lack of jobs but the restrictions on jobs they can take. Far too many states are regulated to the point the even trades many consider simple exclude felons. Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions.

So besides giving them an opportunity to serve while incarcerated we need to make sure that incarceration does not keep them from rejoining society upon release simply because government rules tell them no.

<comment><USER3> > Even fire fighting in many states is not possible with convictions.

There seems to be a reasonable case for thorough background checks for firefighters. You might be able to persuade me that "any felony conviction" is too broad and only certain kinds of felonies should be excluded.

<comment><USER4> You could always find a reasonable case to screen felons, but the first step to reintegrating people into the society is trusting them. It does involve risk.

<comment><USER5> Unless there is a shortage of equally skilled workers, why would a business trust a felon when they could hire a non-felon?

<comment><USER6> Because a felony is damn easy to get and almost impossible to get rid of.

Pissed on a wall or mooned somebody when drunk in front of a cop? Felony _AND_ sex offender--just for good measure.

Had sex with your 17-year-old girlfriend when you were 18? Felony although some jurisdictions make exceptions and try to reduce this to misdemeanor depending upon age difference.

Picked up for drunk and disorderly and had a knife on you that exceeds specifications? Felony. Side note: there is a reason so many people like MagLite flashlights--they are similar in size to a billy club or truncheon but are legal.

Picked up with a small amount of marijuana while your friend was in possession of a much larger amount in the car. Felony.

Every single male I know has done _something_ sufficiently stupid when he was young that could have been a felony.

In addition, if a cop picks you up, they can probably find a felony somewhere in the law that will stick unless you are a teetotaller.

The real problem is that non-violent felonies need to go away after a while. I seem to remember some research showing that if a felon manages to stay out of trouble for 5 years he is _less_ likely to get in trouble than even the general population.

So, to answer your question, felons who stay out of trouble for more than 5 years are actually a _better_ pool to hire from than the general population.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There is no better way to reform a man than to give him a purpose. Firefighting and other volunteer services are definitely a good way to go.

<comment><USER8> Reminds me of Sikes fighting the fire in Oliver Twist:

[http://www.online-literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/](http://www.online- literature.com/dickens/olivertwist/49/)

(search on page "And here he remained" for the start)

(spoiler alert?)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> We still have slave labor in the USA, just throw people in prison and strongly suggest to them their lives will suck less if they work for 30 cents per hour. If they want to go outside, they can get $1 an hour but they risk death.

<comment><USER10> It's voluntary. So long as prison conditions are humane enough to make remaining in jail a viable option, this can help prisoners.

The real danger would be the possibility that this is incentivizing the government to increase the prison population in order to reap the fruits of greater prison labor.

Of course, that's all to say nothing about the national disgrace that 5% of the world's population has 25% of the world's prisoners.

<comment><USER11> > It's voluntary. So long as prison conditions are humane enough to make > remaining in jail a viable option, this can help prisoners.

California prisons are horrifically overcrowded, literally they are under court order to reduce it, so your qualifier fails.

<comment><USER10> I will certainly accept that the qualifier fails; I am well aware of that our prisons have serious problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I have to wonder, based on the restrictions on who they accept, how many of these people would have been better off just getting a job like this instead of going to prison?</comment>