Two out of three developers are self-taught, and other trends from a survey - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/649409/two-out-of-three-developers-are-self-taught-and-other-trends-from-a-survey-of-56033-developers/ <comment><USER3> I started programming when I was 10 or 11 and continued on to get a CS degree. One thing I did notice was that a lot of people in some of my classes seemed to have just woken up one day and decided they wanted to get a degree in computer science. And all throughout my years in school, those are the people who never ventured out of the curriculum (which was java based) to explore and learn other things. Which just seems to set you up for a life in boring corporate java desktop app development (unless you like that kind of development).

An example is my upper level elective class on database systems and design. For the final project of the class you were to take everything you've learned about relational databases and design your own schema, get all of the data properly normalized, and make an app that uses it. Other than that, the sky was the limit. You could use whatever programming language, framework, and database that you wanted, and the app could literally do anything. There was nothing limiting you to building a desktop Java app coupled with MySQL, yet 95%+ of the class did just that. I ventured off and used Postgres + Node.js and made a single page web app for my project, using skills I learned outside of school, on my own time, learning these things (I longed for a friend that knew what a promise was or that bluebird wasn't about a damn live animal).

Now to get to my point. I'm not going to say that self taught developers are strictly better, but I feel like they are the other 5% like myself that see what we do as more than just a class, grade, job, or paycheck. They are the ones that spend the time to learn new emerging things in the software development realm and do it on their own regard. I would much rather work with someone who is not an uncustomized, straight from the java CS degree factory college/university. Someone that ventures outside of the path they are guided on in their career and skill sets and takes the time to learn on their own, and learn the things they want to learn just because.

I'm lucky enough to have my first job be somewhere where I get to dive right into Node.js, Angular, etc. which is what I want to do at this time. Maybe the other 95% feel this way about their first jobs which probably are making internal business Java applications, but I really can't believe that.

<comment><USER4> Too busy to read all comments, apologies if it's been stated elsewhere, but a related remark: Whenever I interview a programmer, I ask them about their pet project at home.

I have yet to meet a _good_ programmer that doesn't have at least one pet project developed outside of the office. Active development not required, just something that they put a lot of time/thought into. I ask them to tell me about it, platform used, problems encountered/resolved, things they've discovered. Fire in their eyes -> a big plus. A statement along the lines of "I had to stop because I dreamt about code" or they teach me something new -> double plus. Anyone who tells me "I don't program at home, once I leave the office the day is done" -> 'archived' immediately. 'School-coders' typically fall into the latter category.

PS I taught myself at ages 14-17 (Basic -> 6502 ASM -> Pascal -> C) then went to college (computer science BSc/MSc). Then the internet came about. Yes, I'm that old… No, I can't keep up with the latest and greatest either. Still have a pet project (or 10)

<comment><USER5> > I have yet to meet a good programmer that doesn't have at least one pet > project developed outside of the office.

I don't. I use my limited spare time outside of work to study.

<comment><USER4> But you did… at one point? (note that I wrote: "Active development not required").

<comment><USER5> Last time I had a side project was at uni. So a bit over a decade ago.

At the time I was 90% theory/learning (Uni) and 10% practical, so adding in a side project to increase the practical side was very valuable.

These days I'm 90% practical (work) and so adding extra L&D/theory is much more valuable to me than spending another hour coding.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I would say that 3 out of 3 developers are self-taught, but that about one third of them also have a degree in Computer Science.

<comment><USER7> Or mathematics, or physics, or astronomy; and I'd rather hire any of those than a modern CS graduate, everything else being equal.

<comment><USER8> Having taught/graded students who graduated with various backgrounds ranging from undergraduate degrees in CS, ECE, to Maths and from IIT, MIT to Duke. I can assure you that its probably inferiority complex about your own CS education or math envy that is behind this line of reasoning. Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major.

<comment> lloyd-christmas Self Disclosure: I was a Math/Econ major with a minor in Applied Statistics (almost a decade ago).

> Given a particular school a median CS major is typically always a better > programmer/problem-solver than an equivalent Physics or Applied math major.

The highest scoring undergraduate degree for those who take the MCATs is Math/Stats. The second highest is Physical Sciences. Far and away, last place is Specialized Health Sciences, with Biology also lagging[1]. The reason isn't because "Math majors are smarter", it's because they are choosing to go into a field that isn't the directly assumed career path. A Math major HAS to stand out compared to the average CS major when going into a programming field, just as an English major HAS to stand out compared to a Finance major when going into finance. If I am interviewing a Math major and a CS major, chances are the Math major is "better" (whatever that contextually means), simply because they've already stood out above all the CS majors. All that being said, let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp.

[1] [https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf](https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/factstablea17.pdf)

<comment><USER8> >> let's not pretend our undergraduate degrees are anything more than a rubber stamp.

May be at the school you studied at. Having taught / studied at Cornell (a highly ranked CS school) and Syracuse (ranked ~50th in USA) there is a huge gap between difficulty & level of effort required in undergraduate courses. Ignoring it as if its just a rubber stamp is a huge mistake. Honestly while there were several good students at Syracuse, I can frankly attest that even an average CS Major at Cornell is better than the 90% of students at Syracuse.

<comment> lloyd-christmas > May be at the school you studied at.

Mature.

> there is a huge gap between difficulty & level of effort required in > undergraduate courses

I'm not arguing the difference between the quality of education between schools. I'm commenting on its usefulness after the rubber stamp. I went to a top college. I still question whether or not $200k was worth it to buy my first job.

> I can frankly attest that even an average CS Major at Cornell is better than > the 90% of students at Syracuse.

I can frankly attest that I don't give a shit when their resume ends up on my desk. The amount of _A_ students that end up with a _B-_ in life are roughly the same amount that went from _B-_ to _A_. _A+_ end up in academics, which is the only place where that aspect actually matters. I care about practical utility, not a slip of paper. "Westchester Community College" ends up in the same pile as "Cornell" if they have 2+ years of work experience.

My father teaches at Cornell as well, but at Weill in NYC. In the last 4 years, he's accepted 1 doctor from Harvard Medical School (#1 in the country) to his fellowship program. He typically doesn't take any because he thinks they value the history of their education more than the usefulness of it in practical application. While I was growing up, EVERY year when reviewing his applicants, we would inevitably have a dinner conversation about "those entitled shit heads".

> Ignoring it as if its just a rubber stamp is a huge mistake.

Whatever floats your boat. However, I'd caution you to warn your students exactly the opposite.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Two out of three developers _who answered a survey on a self-teaching site_ are self-taught. I see this is yet another article assuming the SO survey is representative of developers in general. It is not. It is representative of people who use Stack Overflow heavily enough to see and click on a survey link.

Clearly there's a lot of interest in finding out what is true of developers in general: What languages do we prefer? What's our educational background? What are our demographics? It would be great to have a survey that would answer such questions. This one doesn't.

</comment><comment><USER10> I have a CS degree and still consider myself self taught. I started programming as a kid, and learned mostly from books and coding. I only got my degree because I thought it'd be necessary for getting a job.

<comment><USER11> I'm in the same boat right now. I have been programming since 12 and I'm getting a degree because I don't think I'll get a job without one (or more so my parents think that).

Is this true? Can I start looking right now? Granted, I am not in the valley. I'm all the way in New Jersey.

<comment><USER12> I'm not sure I would so quickly listen to the HN trends. There are a lot of people on HN who are younger and they like the idea that this would be a trend. You are allowing them to define the competitive advantage.

You'll have to do the math and weigh the cost/benefits of your degree.

Personally I think we're in a bit of a bubble/gravy train. The idea that programming will become the new automotive assembly line for self-taught labor is a bit of a stretch.

A degree can impart many benefits (math, core CS ideas, subject matter classes such as speech theory, advertising, management, etc). While many people can make enterprise apps with direction based on being self taught; not many can really build something in depth. Boeing isn't going to let just anyone write aerospace firmware. So if you want to get a job quickly and milk this while it's hot - maybe you go for it? I don't think it's clear cut, and I like having my degree. I'm good friends with fantastic developers without degrees who work alongside me.

In the long term; it depends on the competitive advantage you can get out of that time in school vs your peers extra experience in the field; as well as your goals.

<comment><USER13> Is a degree objectively better?

Developers generally fit into two broad categories -- those who learned to program on their own at age 10 or so and those who decided to pursue a CS degree because the job pays well or they like playing video games. 7 years of experience beats 4 years of college and 3 years experience pretty much every time.

Unfortunately, a huge amount of CS degree time is spent dealing with those with no experience (We have remedial Math or English classes, why not remedial programming classes?). When I hit college (pursuing EE with CS on the side), I already had almost a decade of programming under my belt. I coasted through anything programming related (I'd already found and read books on the theoretical side of programming, so even those weren't that interesting).

At the end of the college road, the people with college only were mostly worthless. They may be able to parrot the big-O notation, but they couldn't tell if a function would be efficient. They could talk about design patterns, but they couldn't handle systems more complex than a couple files. That's nothing against them, I (and others who had been programming from an early age) simply had a lot more experience in thinking in that way (and over time, most of them have become much better).

We need to introduce programming to all children at an early age. Not because everyone can code (that's not at all backed by any studies I've ever seen), but because lots of kids don't find out that they have a knack for programming until college (or not at all).

If most CS students had been programming since middle school, CS could drop a bunch of the remedial classes and focus on the finer parts of programming. Many so-called masters classes are within easy reach if you have some programming time under your belt. Companies would be a lot more willing to hire a dev out of college if they knew college was worth something. Until that happens, I don't think a degree is actually better.

<comment><USER12> I'm actually confused why you seem to be attempting to argue my point, when I was stating it's a situation that is unique to an individual. Do you really objectively think a degree is a yes/no answer that applies universally? What if someone wants to work on deep sea exploration robotics? Yes/No is an oversimplification and your post actually helps to point that out in two ways.

The second way is easier so I'll get it out of the way. More education earlier is an argument that formal programming education can be helpful. That wouldn't undermine the idea that a CS degree has importance on a individual basis; not as a general yes/no rule. We've agree that formal programming education CAN help.

The second point is big for me, and it really bothers me to be honest (not about your post, I appreciate your post). It's this idea that the CS degree is this static cement thing; like we order it from Amazon. _A degree is what you make it!_

Your point about remedial classes, etc is spot on. It's exactly an argument that each person has to weigh the benefits they can get from the degree with the benefits from going right into the industry. If the person shows up at college and picks programming for the reasons you described; then you are probably correct in that it is not "better". However, college is a four year chance to build a competitive advantage. Statistics. Economics. Linguistics. Physics. Accounting. Art. Etc.

If someone chooses to make their degree a worthless money sink, that does not cancel out the person who spends four years learning to code, analyze speech, and working hard on the OpenROV team. Those are two completely different people and neither needs to put their degree on their resume. But only one can put speech analysis and OpenROV there; which they got as part of that degree. They also now have those contacts and team building experiences. Another example might be someone who spends the four years working part time as a contractor. "Got a degree while building industry experience" trounces "got a degree" AND "industry experience" (imho).

A degree is something you pay for, it's an investment and should be treated as such (in the scope of our discussion). While the underlying argument may be if an employer cares; I think that honestly employers are looking at it as a signal that there might be something more to you than some Java/JavaScript syntax.

<comment><USER11> My main problem with attending my university is a lot of my time is spent dealing with classes I can't care about.

Right now my in major GPA is above a 3.2 while my cumulative GPA is hovering around a 2.9; I just don't care about non-cs classes.

This would be find if being at a university had any noticeable benefits, but it only has detractors.

      - No one will hire me for a paid position
      - I have to waste most of my time on classes I don't care about
      - No more time for my side projects that I use to learn.

<comment><USER14> If you think of it as wasting time, then your attitude will come out in your work. All those classes you don't care about are there because university isn't trade school.

The more interesting work goes to programmers who can _communicate_. 90% of programmers can get the job done; I want someone who can articulate what he's built, how it can be improved, when it will be ready, what needs to be changed, what we're doing wrong, etc.

That's what all those classes you don't care about are for: giving you perspective outside heads-down coding that can be outsourced for $50/day.

You'd be amazed at how many people I have interviewed that simply either can't, or won't talk (from the interviewer's perspective they are the same thing!).

Again: most halfway decent programmers are adequate. The great ones are great not because they can write code, but because they can explain how that code works to someone else and, vice versa, they can understand someone who is trying to explain why the code doesn't do what they need. That is worth paying for.

<comment><USER12> It actually bugs me every once in a while when I do an interview and I know the guy can code but he just can't articulate anything. It's like he's locked in there and he would be fine if I slipped tasks under his door in an envelope. But to your point it just doesn't work that way and those people get turned away not because they didn't have the technical skills, but because they demonstrated they couldn't be effective beyond the IDE.

The other day I finally cut a guy off and said, "Yes, sure, you aren't good with terms and explanations. How do you have technical discussions with other developers? What do you do in code reviews?". Deer meet Headlights.

I also realize your point is beyond technical communication, and you are right on that too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I remember sometime in the early 90s I was working at my first really huge contract -- hundreds of programmers.

One day after lunch I get off the elevator and take a look around the huge room. I could probably see 100 folks or so.

There were a dozen different nationalities, people of all ages and genders. There were extremely smart guys who didn't have a degree. There were extremely smart guys who had PhDs in things like particle physics. Here I was, a self- taught guy, leading a team of 30. I had 3 PhDs working for me. I knew more than one person with double degrees in a foreign country who came here for a better life.

And it didn't matter. All that mattered was whether you got along with people, what kind of attitude you had, and whether or not you could push through and solve problems for folks.

I think this was the moment that I decided that I love this industry.

<comment><USER16> It's the only industry in America that to me reflects the American dream. I'm a high school drop out and so far nobody has even asked about my education. They check out my portfolio of work and go on that. Results are results, everything else is just window dressing.

<comment><USER17> Same here. I was scrubbing toilets for $8/hr two years ago, and now I work with PhD's and MBA's making six figures. God bless america.

<comment><USER15> My oldest son grew up fixing computers and programming them, but he wasn't so good at structured education.

By the time he was 20, he was out of school and working fast food. Programming on various projects in his free time. Making minimum wage.

I begged him to start looking for programming work, but he always told me that he wasn't qualified. How could he compete in the job market with all those _professional_ coders?

Finally he tried. Of course, he got a job -- at a startup. He ended up being the go-to guy for both coding and infrastructure.

He's done a lot of things since then, but I'll always remember him looking at me, rolling his eyes, and telling me that what I was saying was impossible.

Yes, there's a huge role for luck, for having good parents, for being born in the right country, and for networking skills. But this is still an industry where if you love it, you can make terrific money just by being passionate about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Some interesting take-aways.

Most developers here are self-taught?

Nope, we're all self taught. Though in this case you are faced with a survey with an option of self taught next to others which include school.

Most developers aren't looking?

This may be the point which the government doesn't understand about tech jobs and immigration. I don't know what it's like to be looking for a job in the U.S. these days but I imagine most people who are decent at programming aren't looking. If you want a bunch of coders you need to get them fresh out of university or start looking abroad. The thousands of resumes going out to development job openings from the unemployed must be from crazy people who can't code.

People finding jobs from others they know?

This sort of goes along with developers not looking. If nobody is looking, then how do you find people to work for you? Get your current employees to hit their Rolodex. Nevermind all that stuff about degree requirements, etc. In my experience, the requirements hit the listing and then you never hear about them. I imagine that's because the listing attracts the crazies and then you get the gig when you sound like you halfway know what you're talking about.

<comment><USER13> I believe the biggest takeaway is the shift from preferring science fiction to preferring a soap opera in space. It seems like the number of thinkers relative to the population has remained static while the number of programmers relative to the population has increased.

What happens when you need more thinkers than society has to offer?

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I absolutely agree with the general sentiment in this thread that we're all self-taught. I've had quite a few friends ask me to help them become programmers, and my first response is that (to paraphrase) "it's not just a job to learn and then work towards retirement. It's a constant learning experience where you have to wake up every day and realize you're ignorant, slow, and unimaginative compared to your peers and if that's not the case, then you're probably going to fall into obscurity. If you're ok with that, then let's get started."

One avenue I haven't seen yet approached here is that schooling was far behind the times at least through the mid-90s. I was set to graduate from a highly regarded prep school in 1996, and in the "advanced computer class", we were learning Pascal. My queries about the internet weren't answered well enough to keep me interested in the conversation.

By then I'd built a couple silly websites for myself, met hundreds of people from around the world, and had my own little secret educational source - <USER2> step up from my peers in school, which I needed because they were all Definitely smarter than me. I was hooked and had zero interest in plain old desktop applications, which was the end-game to what was being taught in every school I looked at (from my 17-year-old perspective).

A book on Perl understood what I was after. It wasn't even necessarily a very good book on Perl. It had an open source web-store on a CD in the cover and it told me step-by-step how to find a web host and then set up the web-store on a server. I set up a web store for my mom's retail business, which then stayed afloat for a little while longer (she now sells online full-time).

I proceeded to drop out of college and haven't stopped learning since.

</comment><comment><USER20> Note that this doesn't mean completely self-taught!

Most (good) developers are definitely at least partially self-taught, but those who are employed in the industry also tend to possess, not necessarily a CS degree but at least on in a related field.

<comment><USER21> Our developer went to Poly and it shows. He can think of a solution to our programs needs almost instantly, were as our other devs whom were self taught and no longer with us because they hit a brick wall.

It pays to have a good programmer with degrees.

<comment><USER22> The best programmers I've worked with are first and foremost problem solvers. One had a CS degree, the other was an accounting major and another a musician with a high school degree.

There are very few CS courses I took at the university that prepared me for the real world. I'm sure there are certain fields like AI, DB algorithms, Math/Science applications, compilers that benefit from formal academic training but for the most part being logical and a a good problem solver are the most important skills.

<comment><USER23> I too have found problem solving to be the most important skill - understanding the problem so you can craft the proper fix or implementation is vital to saving time.

Of the best developers I've worked with/know, only 1 has a CS degree. One has a liberal arts degree IIRC (works at Netflix), another is a college dropout (works at Google)...and the one with a CS degree has a tendency to overengineer systems with great flaws that the others I know wouldn't do (tries to be too clever). Myself, I have a MS in math from a top 15 program (PhD dropout).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I was self-taught as well. Back in '82 I was an in-house illustrator at a children's book publisher. The company (now defunct) brought in Apple IIs in order to do some house-branded educational software. I fell in love with the little machines immediately, even though I really had no exposure to any computers in high school or college (art school). The real software guys that were hired taught me 6502 assembly and off I went. I got my first job as a programmer in '85 doing Mac assembly (68000) programming. So much fun.

That said, I have a huge amount of respect for CS grads. I have seen it. My background in algorithms is totally non-existent, besides what I've been able to pick up on my own. I've been at a disadvantage MANY times due my lack of formal CS/Math (my "formal" math edu stopped at plane geometry in HS!). Thankfully, I've always had good friends to help me through these issues, but it would have been a lot easier for me if I had had real training. Google is a huge help now that we no longer need programming manuals, as such.

I have always gravitated towards the visual, GUI aspect of software development, which is probably not a surprise given my art school background. I really think that companies should keep open minds regarding education. It really takes all kinds of people to do what we do, especially at big, diverse companies. Being visually oriented and a capable programmer is a unique kind of background that can be used to great effect. Not all cookies are the same shape.

</comment><comment><USER25> If you make use of your university time correctly, then the primary value of virtually _any_ degree is that it teaches you how to self-teach to an extent you could not reach if you just started self-teaching on your own.

Aside from occasional prodigies, the folks who are best at teaching themselves new things are folks who proved they could do it through degree programs.

Don't get me wrong, though, a lot of people do not actually make good use of their university time, and they get through to graduation without learning much about self-teaching. I'll never understand why they would want to waste so much money for that.

If I had my choice when recruiting, I'd select people in this order:

1\. Someone whose degree and job experience clearly shows they are thoughtful and can self-teach.

2\. Someone who acquired abilities by self-teaching even without a degree and/or prior experience.

3\. Someone who has a degree and/or experience, but who clearly doesn't have much skill to self-teach.

4\. Someone who does not have a degree, experience, or self-teaching ability.

Really, I'd prefer to _never_ hire someone from groups 3 or 4. But sometimes it can be hard to detect fakers from group 3.

I think a lot of people share this opinion, which is somewhat tragic since very few hiring processes make even the faintest attempt to determine if a candidate is good at learning new things or self-teaching. Instead, just as with the tired old thread about HackerRank from yesterday, we spend all our time quizzing people on rote memorization of standard examples, which is something that the group 3 people are very good at faking their way through.

</comment><comment><USER26> This contrasts strongly with "Dropouts need not apply": [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11393671](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11393671)

blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/03/30/dropouts-need-not-apply-silicon-valley- asks-mostly-for-developers-with-degrees/

<comment><USER27> Silicon Valley != the entire programming world

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Why is the photo of a gaming conference or is that what people think developers look like?

<comment><USER29> Yeah I noticed that as well, looks like it's from a LAN party or something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> CS teaches a lot of theory, but not as much practical. Let's face it, 90% of programming is CRUD and the hardest part of such applications (managing all the state) isn't something that can really be taught in 2 years worth of CS classes (the other 2 years being used on non-CS-specific stuff). Employers don't want to pay to teach new programmers (even CS grads who couldn't get an internship), but generally expect a couple years worth of experience before they'll even consider someone for an "entry-level" dev position.

Programming is a job that requires constant learning. If a programmer has what it takes to do that, then it's not too surprising that the programmer can learn the basics on their own. A lot of devs like myself started learning to program around 10 or so. When college enters the picture, these devs are bored for most of the classes (except perhaps things like algorithms or compiler classes).

If a would-be programmer had the foresight to look into the programming, then they'd probably note that there's more profit in skipping the degree and putting that 50K on the mortgage instead. CS has more free teaching material online than any other white collar job I know of. A programmer can get the exact same education quite easily if desired (you can't really say the same about other STEM fields except perhaps math).

</comment><comment><USER30> I had one class in high school and that was 1973. Other than that I was self taught and still coding today (iOS). A number of friends in college got the (new at the time) CS degrees and all but one eventually were unemployable as they had learned nothing beyond the degree content (mainframes at the time). As long as you are into keeping up to date, after a while the degree no longer matters.

</comment><comment><USER31> I'm self taught as far as web development and programming skills are concerned. But to some degree, it feels like that was really the only option over here in the UK.

Okay, things have apparently improved significantly in the last few years, and schools are seemingly teaching a few more things actually considered programming now, but back when I was learning HTML and CSS and Javascript and all that stuff in the early 00s, the standard of teaching in the IT classes at school and sixth form was absolutely dreadful, and it likely didn't get much better at university. GCSE classes for IT were literally 'how to use Microsoft Office was dummies' and A level course were basically devoid of programming tasks.

As a result you basically had to teach yourself, since there's no way in hell your school education would teach useful skills for any sort of development and you'd likely struggle significantly to go from there to a degree level.

</comment><comment><USER32> Even within CS education programs, this has a profound impact.

You can't design a useful introductory computer science course that works well for everybody. A subset of your class has been dabbling with code since childhood, while another subset needs to start from the beginning.

Other degree programs don't seem to suffer nearly this extreme level of experience gap within their incoming students. What fraction of incoming mechanical engineering students have had the chance to build a working motor and then take it through a dozen revisions until it works the way they want? It has to be much less than the comparable fraction of CS students.

I think this is a big reason for the famous bimodal distribution of outcomes experienced by most introductory CS classes.

</comment><comment><USER33> This is from the SO survey and I think it's a bit misleading. Only 13% of respondents say they are _only_ self-taught as opposed to combining autodidacticism with some other method of learning.

</comment><comment><USER34> Does self taught simply mean "doesn't have a CS degree?" I don't have a CS degree but I don't consider myself self taught because I didn't learn in a vacuum. I would say that 75% or more of what I know, I learned from great colleagues.

</comment><comment><USER35> Even if you started out from school, you are going to need to be self-taught after a year anyway. What you learn in school is going to be obsolete quickly enough and most workplaces are going to assume that you will magically be up to day at all time.

</comment><comment><USER36> The weird thing is that I went to University for a computer science degree and took 2-3 programming courses where I used C and C++ but 95% or more of what I know I learned outside of University.

So does that make me self taught or not? If so, I wonder if that should be 4 out of 5 developers being self taught.</comment>


Ask HN: light technical read for commute hour? - <AUTHOR>

I recently got a copy of CODE which I started reading during my commute. Book is informative and easy read to be completely even on the bus.<p>Are there other such books I can get to keep myself entertained? <comment><USER2> Programming Pearls is a good book although you may want to bring a pen, so you can work on some of the problems. Or you can just do them in your head.

<comment><USER3> I came here to suggest the same book. I didn't do all the problems but it was definitely the best commit hour companion I've had.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest "Founders at Work" by Jessica Livingstone. Its not technical however it is full of interviews from a good selection of the most famous startup founders of this generation.

There are a lot of Y combinator interviews and even one with our very own Paul Graham.

</comment><comment><USER5> If you haven't read it already, applied cryptography by schnieir is a fun read.

<comment><AUTHOR> Looks interesting but title says it contains C code.

<comment><USER5> The first half vontains only pseudo code.</comment></comment></comment>


A research center for augmenting human intellect (1968) - <AUTHOR> https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/mousesite/Archive/ResearchCenter1968/ResearchCenter1968.html <comment><USER2> Same paper as PDF, not HTML:

[http://history-computer.com/Library/AHI.pdf](http://history- computer.com/Library/AHI.pdf)</comment>


Why Do We Haggle for Cars? - <AUTHOR> http://priceonomics.com/why-do-we-haggle-for-cars/ <comment><USER2> At least establishing car value has gotten a lot easier with the tools available today...

My gripe is more with the finance manager portion of the car buying experience. My wife and I bought a used car two weeks ago and while declining their "value add" options one by one the responses ranged from giving us the silent treatment(declined their extended warranty) for minutes at a time, incredulous stares(gap insurance), pleading(fabric protection), and verbatim saying "you are crazy for not wanting an alarm in your new car."

The last made me laugh because I knew there was an alarm... I just didn't want the $75 after-market module they installed on the lot that was marked up to $995.

<comment><USER3> With the extended warranty and other add-ons, my favorite come back is, "I like to think you're selling me a really reliable car. Now you have me worried. Should I be worried?"

I found that shut things down pretty quickly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think the best answer is buried in the middle of this article: cars are the second largest purchase for most people.

The higher the price tag, the more you stand to gain by negotiating.</comment>


Microship.com: The Library of Technomadics - <AUTHOR> https://microship.com/ <comment><USER2> I met Steve Roberts at an engineering fair on the UC Berkeley campus, where he was showing his Behemoth bicycle.

A few years later, I tagged along with a friend of mine who provided the internet connection to his warehouse workshop, where he was building the Microship. A commercial cell-phone tower onboard, etc. Wild stuff.

Here we are, decades later, and most this tech is available for anyone to buy retail at the local grocery store, or your favorite maker vendor like AdaFruit or Element14 or Pimorini. Or eBay.

I am super thankful I got to share that evening with his projects. He loves learning and sharing his discoveries. Artist more than engineer? There's a difference?

</comment><comment><USER3> A life well-lived. Very inspirational and extremely, beautifully geeky. Hats off.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you manage your personal documents and E-mail (Archiving, etc) - <AUTHOR> I searched for a "personal dms" to archive my documents and mails structured and digitalised. I tried several open source solutions but they don't fit my needs. How do you manage your documents?
Background:
I'm thinking about building a simple web-based document management system for personal needs as open-source solution. The current requirements:
- Custom columns (string, date, tags, numbers) - Custom libraries with different (multiple content types) - Content types (composition of columns assignable to a library) e.g. invoice, receipt, etc. - Inbox library for uncategorized documents which are not routed to the library
- Forward a mail to the inbox (mail gets converted to PDF) - Converting images to PDF (receipt for example) - Maybe PDF/A conversation (OCR with tesseract)
Technology stack is: Go and Vue and probably Postgres (I will run it on my Synology using docker)
Do you have any feedback or ideas regarding: - A cool name?
- Functional aspects - Technical aspects - Or further ideas?
Thanks <comment><USER2> I use the Catalog feature of my own "miki": Makefile Wiki. [https://github.com/a3n/miki#catalog](https://github.com/a3n/miki#catalog)

I also try not to get too "taggy" and organized. If I have something new, I just dump it into the top directory of my catalog, and eventually move it down to its own dir and do the minimal op to connect it into the catalog. No DBMS, just the file system.

When I run make on the (personal) wiki, one of the things it does is generate a sitemap, with links to everything, including the catalog part of the wiki. It also creates a catalog-specific json file, which I view directly from Firefox; the addon JsonView makes the json file fields clickable. [https://addons.mozilla.org/en- US/firefox/addon/jsonview](https://addons.mozilla.org/en- US/firefox/addon/jsonview)

Not at all advocating that you use Miki. Just an observation that its motivation is simplicity, to the point that no software was written, I just use what Linux already has, and the filesystem.

The reason for the simplicity motivation is that I've found, over the years, that the more complete a system I've used to try to "get organized," the sooner it will be abandoned. What I've devolved to is this: the "system" will be more usable, and more likely to be used, the less of that system there is.

Of course it's loads of fun to write one of these things, and that's more than enough reason to do it, so go ahead! But you might keep simplicity in mind, start from an attitude of minimalism with just enough added on, and when it's good enough, stop.

I guess all bets are off if you want an OSS project that other people are going to use and work on. In that case, "Release the Features!" :)

However:

> ... "designing the system so that the manual will be as short as possible > minimizes learning effort."

The above quoted in "Expert C Programming, Deep C Secrets," by Peter Van der Linden. I used my catalog to find it. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your response:

I'm doing something like you with miki today, but at the end of the day I have to admit that this "easy management" is more work for me than the system I need because I'm wasting time finding a specific receipt or invoice.

I think your right with the minimalistic approach, I'm lazy and I will not use it if I have to do a lot to store a document.

I'm not quite sure if such a system is useful for the open world too but open- source it will show :P

<comment><USER2> > I'm not quite sure if such a system is useful for the open world

If it's useful to you, it's worth doing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm still struggling with the mail Archiving...

First approach: forward mail to a mail address by the archive - Maybe hard to parse out the FW and get the original mail?

Second approach: give the archive IMAP access to connect to your mailbox and parse a folder e.g. "personal archive"

Then download the mails and attachments, convert the mail to PDF and preserve the attachments.

Any thoughts?

</comment><comment><USER3> I was thinking about doing something similar just the other day.

I would pick SQLite and not PG, simpler to get it running and simpler to operate.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you have some further ideas fur such a system?

<comment><USER3> My idea was slightly different. I want to create a general data store with hooks.

So that you can generate a table, links tables together and have custom hooks. (stuff like send me an email on this date.)

Then serve an html interface, so for each table you will have a form to complete.

Finally I wanted to write anything on SQL so that you can simply take the file and move so your data with you.

It is not simple but not even too difficult... It requires time.

The one I want to create is not quite your ideas but it is a super set of it...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I use a hard drive.....with folders.

</comment><comment><USER5> Office 365 SharePoint. Seriously. It's great and just works.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm working as a software developer with a main focus on Ms and sharepoint. I know this beast but the original dms features of sharepoint get replaced in O365. O365 is moving to fast to use it for the next several years. Don't get me wrong, that's just for me as a customer.</comment></comment>


Charles-Henri Sanson, Royal Executioner (2018) - <AUTHOR> https://www.headstuff.org/culture/history/charles-henri-sanson-royal-executioner/ <comment><USER2> Here[^1] is a discussion on an article entitled _" What was it like to be an executioner in the Middle Ages?"_.

[^1]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20792442](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20792442)</comment>


Mathematical Theory of Claude Shannon (2001) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon1.pdf

<comment><USER2> Whoa, this is nice, but it's a shame the OCR/formulas are all screwed up and less than easily readable. Does anyone know if there's a cleaner version out there?

<comment><USER3> [https://scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com) is good source

Fifty Years of Shannon Theory

[http://www.princeton.edu/~verdu/reprints/IT44.6.2057-2078.pd...](http://www.princeton.edu/~verdu/reprints/IT44.6.2057-2078.pdf)

A Mathematical Theory of Communication

[http://www.mast.queensu.ca/~math474/shannon1948.pdf](http://www.mast.queensu.ca/~math474/shannon1948.pdf)

An algebra for theoretical genetics

[http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/11174#files- area](http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/11174#files-area)

A symbolic analysis of relay and switching circuits

[http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abstractAuthors.jsp?reload=tr...](http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abstractAuthors.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=5057767)

[http://www.ccapitalia.net/descarga/docs/1938-shannon- analysi...](http://www.ccapitalia.net/descarga/docs/1938-shannon-analysis- relay-switching-circuits.pdf)</comment></comment>


Google At Age 10 - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/google-at-age-10/

<comment><USER2> Yep, and it is great to see how google.com page looked like here: <http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://google.com></comment>


Should Coke buy Twitter? - <AUTHOR> According to Google trends, "interest" in Twitter is about twice that of Disney. (1) As many others have mentioned, Twitter has outsize influence and visibility.
Twitter is losing money, but it could probably break even or make money if it stopped grasping for growth. It also has a strong niche, and can be expected to maintain its position for a while.
Disney is spending $ 2B per year on advertising. (2)
At a 10% discount rate, a $2 B/year perpetuity is worth $20 B.
Should Disney purchase Twitter -- making media cite tweets as stemming from "Disney's Twitter" -- as a pure name-recognition play? Disney could add its logo to every tweet as well. If so, why aren't other like Coca Cola in the game?
(1) https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=twitter
(2) http://www.businessinsider.com/10-biggest-advertising-spenders-in-the-us-2015-7 <comment><USER2> Because that's not why Disney is interested in Twitter.

Disney is not exactly what you think it is. Read this list and you'll understand hopefully: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Disney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Disney)</comment>


Ask HN: Is it possible to capture webcam output and store directly on server? - <AUTHOR>

Hey.
I'm just wondering if it is possible to capture the output of a webcam and store it directly to the server. I can then run a cron script to encode the video that is not a problem, but can the actual capture be done on a website (using Flash for example), and saved through PHP?
Has anyone done this?
I'm thinking similar software to what ChatRoulette uses, but not for live streaming but instead saving as files on the server for encoding later. <comment><USER2> Check out this example someone posted awhile back. I think it could be modified to do what you need:

<http://www.xarg.org/project/jquery-webcam-plugin/></comment>


How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200415-how-to-make-pizza-like-a-neapolitan-master <comment><USER3> I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places. As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure "favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;)

The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Agerola is slightly drier than Mozzarella, therefore producing less liquid in the oven, and also costs less), and I find that pizza done according to the Neapolitan recipe loses much when using a different kind of cheese.

A pet peeve of mine is that many recipes, while getting most of it right, use instant yeast; an important part of Neapolitan pizza is the slow dough rise using very little amounts of yeast, that should take from a minimum of 7/8 hours to an entire day or more (of course by storing it in a fridge).

<comment><USER4> Ciao, Come siete ?

I'm not sure if you have ever been to NYC but an interesting observation I have had with Gino Sorbillo is the pizza in Napoli is very good, but he/they opened a restaurant in NYC and it's absolutely average at best.

I assume they import everything, but quality wise, the places are polar opposites.

Also curious your thoughts of Da Michele?

<comment><USER5> Given the stories I hear from pretty much everyone in my circle who's been to the US, there's a general problem with food there tasting bland, in comparison to Europe. Like others, I suspect the ingredients in the States are worse for some reason (perhaps they've been optimized too much for shelf life).

<comment><USER6> Send them to Santa Fe.

Bland will _NOT_ be your problem.

However, you have to understand that a lot of the US really doesn't deal well with food that isn't bland--a holdover from WWII rationing and canned foods, probably. IIRC, McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to attempt to add an ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding cucumber was fine, but avocado was a step too far for the midwest.

<comment><USER5> > _McDonalds(?) went through a huge engineering process to attempt to add an > ingredient to their pipeline. They found that adding cucumber was fine, but > avocado was a step too far for the midwest._

That's something I'd love to read in more details about. Personally, I'd say avocado is a step too far in anything that isn't fruit salad. But so is (pickled) cucumber. I wish they'd remove it from their burgers altogether. The reasoning is, pickled cucumber overwhelms everything else with its sour flavor. McD burgers I experienced (in several countries, Europe and Asia) have a balanced composition of tastes, and that slice of cucumber there is as if someone threw a grenade into it. I usually hunt it down and eat it with my first bite, so that I can enjoy the rest of the burger in peace.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Neopolitan is a setup for failure in the home kitchen. It's one of the most demanding styles in terms of equipment and preparation. It makes zero sense to pursue it at home unless you actually have a very strong preference for this style (highly unlikely if commercial pizza is even a crude reflection of preferences).

It's fetishism. It's sought because it has cultural cachet, it's hard to obtain, it's 'authentic', etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> > setup for failure ... most demanding ... makes zero sense ... It's > fetishism. It's sought because it has cultural cachet, it's hard to obtain, > it's 'authentic', etc.

Totally agree. There's beauty in such crazy pursuits, don't you think?

I shared the link in the spirit of HN, knowing this place is full of people who enjoy chasing obsessions that are risky, or just because, or because someone said it was impossible.

Long live kitchen hackers with zero sense! It's always enriching and occasionally successful. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> My favorite read on pizza: [http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

<comment><USER9> Damn, he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens. Mine e.g. maxes out at 300 °C so it's not hot enough to let the crust rise significantly and produce a nicely charred underside, at least not before completely burning the top.

What I'm currently experimenting with to solve this problem is to put the pizza on a flat, heavy and preheated iron pan or plancha and heat it at maximum power on the induction stove for 3 minutes to get the metal really hot. Then I put it in the oven at 300 °C for around 10 minutes. Doesn't produce perfectly charred pizza but comes a lot closer to what you can achieve with a real pizza oven. Still I'm not fully satisfied with the result, so thanks for the article link, I'll definitely try to apply some tricks mentioned there!

<comment><USER10> For a quick pizza, I use a "Ooni" pizza oven and the results have been great. It's relatively cheap and you can get the temperatures you are looking for. I joined their first kickstarter and have been buying their ovens ever since:

[https://uk.ooni.com/collections/shop-all/products/ooni- koda](https://uk.ooni.com/collections/shop-all/products/ooni-koda)

<comment><USER11> For years I've dreamed of building a wood-fired pizza oven, or buying one of the cast kits from [https://www.fornobravo.com/](https://www.fornobravo.com/). But this looks way easier and cheaper.

How long does a gas cylinder last?

<comment><USER12> I have a green-egg[1] style ceramic grill that works really well for pizza. Wood-fired, and can get up to a pretty good temperature. I use a pizza stone in it.

1: The exact brand is a Kamado ceramic grill.

<comment><USER13> Cool, but why do those cost like a Rolls Royce? Just a big ceramic ball, but priced like its made of gold.

<comment><USER12> With the Green Egg, you're paying for a brand name for sure. The Kamado is definitely not _cheap_ , but it's typically around half the price.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Nothing beats Neapolitan-style pizza. If you are ever in Chicago, skip the deep dish and instead head over to Spacca Napoli on the city's northside.

[https://www.spaccanapolipizzeria.com/](https://www.spaccanapolipizzeria.com/)

Supposedly, the owner shipped in Italian raw materials for the clay oven, as well as Italian masons to build it. I don't know that the oven is the reason for why their product is so good, but it is just miles apart from any other type of pizza in Chicago.

They also have wines that can't be found anywhere else in the US.

<comment><USER15> Personally prefer both NY style and deep dish over Neapolitan. Neapolitans are beautiful and have good flavors, but I think the floppy structure is much worse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Norther Italian here: the recipe for the dough is reasonable. I usually go for 500g flour (typically a mix of 0 and 00 which I find at my grocery store) and 300ml water.

If you want a much quicker fermentation, You can use between 15g and 25g of yeast. Put a couple teaspoons of sugar to let the yeast work better, and make sure the water is between 20°C and 45°C.

But the most interesting idea for home baking is the "double fermentation": let the dough rest for about one hour in a slightly warm environment (20°C - 40°C - usually that means starting the oven for one minute, then turning it off and putting the covered dough in). Then prepare the base for the pizza on your baking tin, but DO NOT PUT anything on it; instead, leave it for 30-45 min more resting in the oven. Then, extract it, put the tomato and other things, and cook it.

<comment><USER17> > _Norther Italian here_

No offence intended, I'm genuinely curious; isn't pizza a southern thing? This reads to me like a person from the northern US weighing in on BBQ. It's perfectly allowed, but why qualify with northern?

<comment><USER16> > This reads to me like a person from the northern US weighing in on BBQ

The US is much larger than Italy, you know!

By the way, I qualified as "Northern" exactly for the "southern thing" reason. Pizza is an italian staple and, as such, different regions have different recipes and dough styles - not just trying to imitate the "original" version. Such original version is Neapolitan pizza, which is indeed very good.

But it's hard to bake a true Neapolitan pizza at home. Would you prepare your dough 24 hours before? Have you got the right temperature where to leave it? Does your oven reach 450°C ? So I chimed in with some suggestions to bake a good pizza at home - and, as far as I know, most people use a variation of such recipe when at home. Including people from Neaples!

I wasn't commenting on the perfect dough for the perfect Neapolitan pizza for a pizzeria; that's far beyond my competence levels.

EDIT: after all, from my comment it COULD look like I was commenting on the "Neapolitan master" pizza recipe; that was not my intention. My bad. My suggestion is valid for HOME BAKING.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Our last attempt:

[https://www.instagram.com/p/B_TDukylKSj/](https://www.instagram.com/p/B_TDukylKSj/)

We made it in a regular home oven but on maximum temperature of 285°C (545°F) and broiler on. It takes no more than 2-3 minutes.

We followed this recipe: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8)

<comment><USER19> Wow, Instagram has really gone over to the dark side. They haven't just broken the back button, they have entirely disabled it. There is no way to escape that site other than typing in a new URL or going to your browser history.

<comment><USER20> Works fine in desktop Safari, so it's a problem with your browser.

<comment><USER19> Interesting. I'm using firefox with noscript. So it's not that Instagram has intentionally disabled the back button, it's (apparently) that they're trying to intercept it somehow and when they fail it ends up disabled. Still kinda hinky if you ask me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I have found that the key to getting the dough really stretchy is the autolyse part: first mix ~⅔ of the flour/yeast with all of the water to make something like a pancake batter, stir for a few minutes, and let that sit for at least 20 minutes. _Then_ add in the rest of the flour, knead, and let rest overnight.

This isn't mentioned in the linked BBC article, but both [http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm](http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm) and [http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/](http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/) swear by it, and I think it has made a noticeable difference to my dough.

</comment><comment><USER19> I can't speak to pizza, but I have an espresso story to tell.

One of my favorite things about going to Italy is the quality of the coffee. I really like extreme dark roast (your typical American diner coffee doesn't even count as coffee in my book). In Italy you can go into pretty much any coffee shop and come away with a top-quality espresso. (Don't even get me started on Starbucks.) It's a taste I inherited from my parents, who have European roots.

Now, my parents are seriously old-school. They still live in the house I grew up in, a house they bought new in 1975 and pretty much never updated. It still has the original flower-pattern wall paper. Walking into their house today feels like stepping into a time machine that transports you to an episode of the Brady Bunch. And in their kitchen is a 40-year-old Mr. Coffee which my father loves to futz with. On a good day he can coax it into producing an acceptable cup of joe, but that's about it. So for their 50th anniversary I decided I was going to buy them a proper espresso machine.

Now, I know next to nothing about espresso except that I love to drink it, so I started doing some homework and very soon got lost in a morass of coffee geekdom. The range of options available in the espresso machine market is truly mind-boggling, as are the prices. I didn't mind dropping some serious coin (this was their 50th anniversary after all) but I wanted to make sure I was actually getting something for my money. So I decided to do some experiments.

At the time I worked in a co-working office that had a high-end espresso machine (retail price $5000) and several Italians so I asked one of them to show me how to make a proper espresso. I wanted to use the espresso that came out of the office machine as a baseline and compare it to what I could make on a less expensive machine to see if the machine actually made a difference. "The first thing you have to do," he told me, "is to get the right beans. You have to go to this little specialty shop that's a half-hour drive away and get this particular brand of beans..." which, of course, cost $50 a pound or something absurd like that. But I love my parents, so I dutifully complied.

Proper beanage having been procured, we spent several hours brewing espresso with just about every possible variation on the theme you could imagine. Different grinds (we had a high-end burr grinder in the office too), different packings, different machine settings. Not once did we manage to produce a cup that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. It was all acidic and awful, probably because the machine had never been cleaned since it was installed god-only-knows how many years before.

I ended up getting them a Keurig. I got one for myself too. It makes a decent cup of coffee, but nothing compared to what you find in Italy. It is still a mystery to me how the Italians manage to produce such consistently good coffee, but only in Italy. When they come to the U.S. they seem to lose the touch. Maybe there's something in the water.

<comment><USER22> I don't know much about espresso, but the pourover coffee I make at home is certainly much higher quality than a Keurig machine. The beans are the most important part - you should get them roasted within the last few weeks.

Even the fanciest pourover funnel costs only 50 dollars, but you can certainly get by with a cheap plastic one for a few bucks. If you want to go full hipster, you will also need a temperature controlled electric kettle, and a scale to exactly portion out your coffee.

Then of course there is the grinder. If you are patient enough to hand grind, you can get a Hario ceramic manual grinder for $50 that produces a high quality grind. Otherwise, a quality electric grinder will be more expensive.

All and all, a hipster pourover setup will cost you less than $500 if you go all in. I don't use a scale, a temperature control, or a fancy grinder - <USER2> just use a cheap grinder and eyeball my beans, while pouring boiled water over them, so my whole setup cost me about $50 dollars. That coffee still blows the pants off Keurig any day of the week, and I can compost my filters so I am not filling a hole in our planet with a tiny plastic cup every time I want a coffee.

<comment><USER23> Last month I got a simple pour over setup that's not full-hipster. Coffee is 10x better than a Keurig or instant coffee. Both of which i have. Maybe it's partially being trapped in house but it's bordering on better than the coffee shops nearby.

Setup:

Hario v60 ~ $20

Pour Over Filter ~ $10

Grinder - $30 (already had)

Kitchen Scale - $10 (already had)

This guide is a good start: [https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew- guides/v60](https://www.stumptowncoffee.com/brew-guides/v60)

<comment><USER22> Nice, thats a good guide!

I dare say that if you are capable of following instructions, and have $15 to invest into a freshly roasted bag of beans from a coffee shop, then your coffee is exactly the same quality as to what you would get from a high end coffee shop. The only difference is that the coffee shop will charge you up to 5 dollars for a fancy pourover, while your 15 dollar bag of beans will last you several weeks.

<comment><USER23> Oh yes! That is a great point, I've been buying from local roasters/shops and it definitely makes a difference

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm quarantined with two Italians (father-in-law and his mother) from Northern Italy and had been planning on making pizza from scratch to surprise them but always thought I would make a huge mess in the kitchen... from the video, it looks totally manageable! The hardest part is having to wait 11 hours to eat it!

<comment><USER25> N.Italy: I'm quarantined [well, it's lockdown, really] with two Italians, one is my wife (other is son): I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen. Every mealtime has become a stereotypically-italian ultra-marathon. 2.4kg heavier since. Yes, i am trying to keep fit but going from 30-200km daily bicycle rides (eas 28km commute and back for work) to balconia+pasta+pasta sure takes it toll.

<comment><USER26> > I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen

Ahha! I do not know why, but in every international couple I have met (including mine) the Italian part always ends up taking over the kitchen.

My non-Italian wife says it is a matter of low adaptability to different cooking styles on our part.

Maybe it's true. But she seems to be happy to accept it :-)

<comment><USER27> As an Italian, I agree with your wife: my countrymen can be downright racist when it comes to food. Often they struggle to accept even other Italian food that is not from their own city. Then again, that's how Italian cuisine managed to survive the industrial revolution whereas others didn't make it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Previous discussion from last week:

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22897962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22897962)

</comment><comment><USER29> Hear me out this is one of the best how-to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN2HkepzPhU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN2HkepzPhU)

– an Italian who eats 2 pies per week on average

<comment><USER30> since we're sharing - I love watching this lady cook Italian food [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjXWVSbWBV4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjXWVSbWBV4)

<comment><USER29> haha that accent! The recipes seem legit. This type of cuisine is quite healthy

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Like many, I've been learning new recipes recently and that includes pizza -

I've been using this dough recipe (it has wholewheat in it) [0] and been really liking the flavor of the dough. I've also moved to slow rise, the dough flavor seems more complex (or it could be psychosomatic). I leave it in the fridge for 2 days or 3 days, depending on how quickly we go through one batch.

But for cooking, I'm following this method (which is similar to what suggested in the OP). Basically to cook the pizza with tomato sauce first and then add the cheese [1] (PSA - this guy has such fun personality, be prepared to watch hours of his pizza videos)

I've also bought canned peel san marzano tomatoes (from both Whole Foods and TJs) and just used an impression blender to puree it with some basil.

I watched an interview with the owner of Lucali in NY [2] and he said he cooks his tomato sauce. So I've been cooking my tomato puree simmering it for 30-40 min. It makes it much richer. Still not sure if I like it more or not.

[0] [https://www.billyparisi.com/homemade-pizza-homemade-pizza- do...](https://www.billyparisi.com/homemade-pizza-homemade-pizza-dough- recipe/)

[1] [https://youtu.be/xuy8sP4Wb2k?t=142](https://youtu.be/xuy8sP4Wb2k?t=142)

[2] [https://youtu.be/BSHh0MmJM1U?t=339](https://youtu.be/BSHh0MmJM1U?t=339)

</comment><comment><USER32> For anyone interested in more information:

I recently discovered Vito Iacopelli's excellent YouTube channel on (predominantly Neapolitan) pizza making. He runs a Neapolitan pizzaria in Los Angeles and covers things like stretching techniques, tests with different ingredients and fermentation processes, and methods specifically designed to be used at home.

[https://www.youtube.com/user/maestrovitoiacopelli](https://www.youtube.com/user/maestrovitoiacopelli)

</comment><comment><USER33> I highly recommend the book "American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza". I have a digital version and it took my pizza game to the next level.

>Master bread baker Peter Reinhart follows the origins of pizza from Italy to the States, capturing the stories behind the greatest artisanal pizzas of the Old World and the New.

>Beginning his journey in Genoa, Reinhart scours the countryside in search of the fabled focaccia col formaggio. He next heads to Rome to sample the famed seven-foot-long pizza al taglio, and then to Naples for the archetypal pizza napoletana. Back in America, the hunt resumes in the unlikely locale of Phoenix, Arizona, where Chris Bianco of Pizzeria Bianco has convinced many that his pie sets the new standard in the country. The pizza mecca of New Haven, grilled pizza in Providence, the deep-dish pies of Chicago, California- style pizza in San Francisco and Los Angeles—these are just a few of the tasty attractions on Reinhart's epic tour.

>Returning to the kitchen, Reinhart gives a master class on pizza-making techniques and provides more than 60 recipes for doughs, sauces and toppings, and the pizzas that bring them all together. His insatiable curiosity and gift for storytelling make American Pie essential reading for those who aspire to make great pizza at home, as well as for anyone who enjoys the thrill of the hunt.

<comment><USER34> Mastering Pizza by Marc Vetri is another good one. As well as The Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani.

</comment></comment><comment> rv-de I very much enjoy making pizza (or pasta) in the evening after work. It's a great way to relax, watch something on the side and provides some kind of Italian style escapism where you enter semi-consciously a fantasy world of Mediterranean savoir vivre (what's the Italian term here?). In the end I enjoy (usually together with my girlfriend or guests) the result with a nice bottle of red wine which provides the elevating intoxication to round up the experience.

I like to experiment with my pizza and pasta recipes and place focus on trying to keep it simple. I believe that art benefits of some structure. Think rhyming patterns in poems or tonality in music. I'm aware of atonal music or not rhyming poetry but that's my point - it's a very different experience - more difficult. That's why I also like to not go and buy the best most expensive ingredients but instead attempt to restrict them to what I get from ALDI. Sometimes I'm just going crazy in some bio market and just buy the top notch stuff. But it seems that the taste is not that much depending on whether the tomatoes are from San Marzano or your run-of-the-mill variety from a regular super market.

My latest - not yet used - pizza gadget is an oven stone. Can't wait to find out how it will affect the outcome.

<comment><USER35> A pizza stone is a definite improvement, but what will make an absolute world of difference is a proper pizza oven (preferably wood-fired, but gas also works).

I instantly went from mediocre home pizza to almost restaurant grade simply by switching from my household oven to an Ooni, despite using the same ingredients and preparation method.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I typically buy my dough from Trader Joe's but what to start doing it myself. There's a recipe in the article, but anyone else have a goto recipe they love?

<comment><USER37> [https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza- recipes.html](https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-recipes.html)

Perhaps start with the New York style

<comment><USER38> Specifically this one: [https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann- nystyle.php](https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php)

Which should really be called a Roman-style pizza tonde dough, which is the style that was predominantly adopted in NYC.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> The first episode of Ugly Delicious on Netflix was about Pizza, including Neapolitan pizza.

Chef Chang ordered Domino's pizza to one of the restaurants. Hilarious.

</comment><comment><USER40> I prefer thicker dough for my pizza.

Those ultra-thin doughs just feel like a cheat.

550 flour, half cube yeast, a tiny spoon salt and sugar, 150ml milk filled up by water to ~275ml fluid. 5 spoons oil. Knead the dough and add the fluid. When it's nice textured leave it for the rest of the day or at least a few hours.

You get a dough you can load full with whatever you want and you'll have enough food for a few days.

</comment><comment><USER41> Personally, I like my Pizazz Pizza plate/oven thing. I make dough out of like 5 ingredients and let it rise for a few hours in the fridge. Top with whatever and eat--pizza is about enjoyment to me, not this Anthony Bourdain never ending quest for the perfect slice of sushi, its about making it, enjoying it, eating it.

</comment><comment><USER42> This is the best video on making neapolitan style at home with an cast iron pan and oven: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs)

I've used this method a few times to superb results.

<comment> rv-de pizza from a pan ... that's downright frivolous - can't wait to give that a try!

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> For a practical, home-bakable, sourdough recipe I can vouch for:

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs](https://youtube.com/watch?v=HXAW2GseICs)

Top comment: "There is more drama in this video than in the entire Transformers franchise."

</comment><comment><USER44> Great read, thanks for sharing, there was just a new oven announced, I think it's ooni, which is for this kind of pizza. It's an outdoor propane pizza oven. BTW, I'm not sure you can cook pizza at 500 degrees in 90 seconds like the article says.

<comment><USER45> I have an Ooni 3 (burns wood pellets). It gets up to 800-900 degrees. The first pizza cooks in 60 seconds. Each pizza after that takes a little longer. It's an impressive little oven.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> The article fails to mention Roman "pinsa", which was commonplace a _bit_ earlier than 1700 and is what gave pizza its name.

[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsa](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsa)

<comment><USER27> Damn, the pinsa is delicious. Very hard to find outside of the Roma/Lazio region though.

<comment><USER46> Yes? You can find it in most big cities around Northern Italy

<comment><USER27> Not really - you can find _focaccia_ of various types which is close but not quite that.

<comment><USER46> I know the difference between a focaccia and a pinsa.

Turin, Milan, Bergamo, Brescia and other cities have a lot of "pinseria" joints. Ma tipo tante eh. Saluti!

<comment><USER27> Maybe they don't cross the Po then, not really seen them in Emilia :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Get the G3 Ferrari electric pizza oven. you can cook a pizza in 2-3 minutes in that. There is even (of course!) an online community of pizza oven hackers who install additional electric heating elements in the oven to get the temperature even higher :)

</comment><comment><USER48> Disclaimer: I grew up in Italy and frequently travel there.

Best pizza I ever had was in Vienna, yes, made by an Italian but not the classical Napolitan pizza. I strongly prefer Rome as reference for it.

</comment><comment><USER49> I'm surprised they use yeast and not sourdough as that would add more flavor. Sourdough is surprisingly easy to make and maintain btw. During these wfh days especially: Just mix 50grams of flour with 50 grams of water and leave in an open container for a couple of days, when you see bubbles, put half of is (50gr) together with 25gr of flour and 25gr of water, repeat. In a bread of 500 grams of meal and 250 ml of water, add 100 gr of your bubbling sourdough, kneed, let rise for 3 hours, and overnight into the fridge, easy peasy.

Btw, that standard kneeding hook of the Kitchen aid is really a pos: Get a better one asap.

<comment><USER27> For the daily "HN teaches you to" segment: HN teaches Neapolitan pizza master how to make pizza.

<comment><USER50> This comment lessens the discussion; the one you replied to does not, even if it is not the best suggestion.

<comment><USER27> Sometime the discussion needs a reality check.

<comment><USER49> My surprise needs a reality check? I guess a surprise is always a reality check...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Source ingredients that are only available in one location on earth, and cook using a device which is very uncommon in most households. Sure, easy.

</comment><comment><USER52> A question for italians: do you use raw tomato puree, or do you fry it? I've always used fried tomato puree (fried at home with olive oil)

<comment><USER53> I'm not Italian, but from what I've seen (from watching YT videos on pizzas) they say always use the raw puree.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> I always have a hard time getting the dough stretched out really thin. I end up with super floof pizza. What am I doing wrong?

<comment><USER55> You may not be letting it sit long enough or you may not be stretching it long enough.

The advantage of the dough toss is the centrifugal force that adds enough force to stretch the dough a lot and evenly.

If I don't spin my dough I get a pie crust that's too thick.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> The term "margherita pizza" suggests a different authentic meaning compared to the widespread conception.

</comment><comment><USER57> My biggest challenge has been making a good sauce. I love making pizza at home with my kids.

<comment><USER38> Honestly, I prefer using _good_ passata and just a bit of salt and olive oil. If you can't get passata, use crushed tomatoes and blend them first. Don't cook it, any canned tomato product has already been heated as part of the canning process. Quality matters, don't use the cheap cans from the supermarket.

I'm lucky that I have an absolutely fantastic Italian specialty store here in Copenhagen, where I can get amazing quality canned tomatoes and great cuts of cured meat for toppings. And 'nduja, oh boy the 'nduja. For cheese I actually use completely ordinary Danish Havarti, it's like a slightly aged low-moisture whole milk mozzarella, it melts great and it's available literally everywhere here.

Neapolitan pizza is something you really need a wood-fired oven or something that gets similarly hot. An ordinary oven won't cut it. As I live in an apartment and have very limited space for gadgets, I stick to Roman-style pizza tonde, where you can get absolutely amazing results in an ordinary oven with a baking steel (mine is an 8mm thick 8kg slab of iron from an industrial steelworks, but the commercial ones are great too).

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Please ignore all these experts, all they want is to make you feel special because you drink/eat their stuff.

Above a certain threshold one cannot tell the difference between good and very good. Wine tasters know it and it has been very well documented.

When it comes to flavours, as long as it doesn't harm you, your judgement is as good as anybody else.

<comment><USER59> I really wish this wine meme would die. Essentially every test done to 'prove' that there's no difference between cheap and expensive wines has had two massive flaws:

1\. The label of 'wine expert' is left undefined. True sommeliers have spent thousands of hours studying wine and are not the same thing as a guy that takes a weekend wine-tasting course and gets a certificate. Yet most 'studies' fail to mention this.

 _Just as importantly here, what literally every single source we could find not only leaves out when reporting this story, but in the vast majority of cases falsely states, is the actual qualifications of those being tested by Brochet. It turns out, the people he was using as taste testers were not experts at all, simply undergraduate students studying oenology (wine and wine making). While certainly probably more knowledgeable than your average person on the street, nobody would call an undergraduate mathematics major just learning the ropes a "math expert", nor would their skills be indicative of what their professors who have vastly more experience and are actual experts are capable of doing._

2\. The 'experiments' are done in a totally unscientific arbitrary way, with massive amounts of suggestion and psychological influence. If this were any other scientific study, it would be laughed out of the room for its total lack of rigor.

 _As the Master Sommeliers demonstrate by passing the taste test they are subjected to in the first place, with enough time and study, there are actually people who are exceptionally good at identifying and judging attributes of wines in the right circumstances. But overwhelm there sense with 100 wines or change their expectations about what they are tasting and their perceptions will change significantly, seemingly, making them little better than a random person off the street at telling anything definitive about the wine._

[https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can- profess...](https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-professional- wine-connoisseurs-really-not-tell-the-difference-between-expensive-wines-and- cheap-wines/)

<comment> saiya-jin A simple flaw in your reasoning - none of the target audience of this comparison is actually a sommelier expert. The whole argument is about an average joe sampling say a wine costing say 15 euros in france and one costing 500. And the same average joe benefiting very little if at all from paying too much. Its like buying La Ferrari which all experts praise, when all you need is to drive 80kmh to next town.

I personally, by no means an expert in any way, can attest the difference is minimal and mostly comes down to one's own preferences / pairing of wine with food in given situation.

Its often one of those markets where you buy your own emotions with higher price rather than actual, measurable subjective added value.

But yes, if you use a wine costing 2-3 euros, quality of taste in many aspects will be incomparable even to that average joe.

<comment><USER60> > But yes, if you use a wine costing 2-3 euros, quality of taste in many > aspects will be incomparable even to that average joe.

2-3 euro wine tastes disgusting to even an "average joe"

<comment> saiya-jin I mentioned prices in euro and France for a reason - there are wine in 2-3 euros category that can be bought there ie in Carrefour/Casino, that qualify as say 'table wine' and are perfectly fine for having say with lunch and dinner. No bad/sour aftertaste, taste is simple but very smooth.

The country I come from, this would be put in above-average quality (which isn't very nice to my home country, but that's my experience).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> 867-5309 someone mentioned honey instead of sugar, can I have some thoughts on milk instead of water and brown instead of white flour?

<comment><USER47> \- don't use sugar at all

\- no

\- no

<comment> 867-5309 I've seen them all in recipes and am seeking alternatives, but thanks anyway..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> The secret to great pizza sauce is more sugar than you'd expect.

<comment><USER46> I don't understand the downvotes, given that sugar both feeds the yeast bacteria needed for proper rising, and to balance the high acidity of tomatoes.

<comment><USER62> yes but you don't mix the dough with the tomatoes until the very end so it wouldn't impact the yeast. With proper flour sugar is not necessary, as the flour itself will be broken down by the yeast (hence the maturing/proofing stage). If you "exhaust" the flour, then you'll need sugar to get an "artificial" Maillard reaction and a nice browning of the crust.

<comment><USER46> Yes obviously you don't add tomatoes and sugar to the dough, you prepare a sauce on the side and add a bit of sugar to that.

Yeast needing no sugar to work is something I've never heard of, could you please forward more information about this? Thank you.

<comment><USER63> Dough will rise just as well without any added sugar -- the starches in the flour are the primary food source for the yeast. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. The purpose of sugar in doughs is to assist browning -- especially at home-oven temperatures -- and "improve" the flavour. I personally prefer baking dough without sugar, but you do whatever you prefer.

<comment><USER46> I prefer to experiment, that's why I'm asking more details. I'll try right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Pizza is a dough base with some veg and cheese sprinkled on top of it. Lets not make it more special than it needs to be. It's not very hard to make it and even first time it will taste good enough.Maybe not as good as if some Italian would do it but definitely not bad either.

<comment><USER25> Your beer thoughts?

<comment><USER65> Using this exact reasoning I have gone from microbrew IPA:s to cheap straight vodka.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Any Los Angeles hackers interested in a meetup? - <AUTHOR>

I don't see much about SoCal on HN ... anybody out there in the Los Angeles or San Diego area?<p>Would you be interested in a SoCal meetup this summer? <comment><USER2> Hey, there's a socal yc group on Facebook - 'socal.yc'. We're hoping to have a meetup some time as well.</comment>