Apple acquires Dark Sky - <AUTHOR> https://blog.darksky.net/dark-sky-has-a-new-home/ <comment><USER3> Sigh.

I mean, congratulations to the founders of Dark Sky. It's a wonderful app and they deserve all the money they'll get from this and they deserve a lot of credit for not selling user data when almost every other weather app does. But shutting down the API and Android apps feels like an egregious move by Apple.

And I hope we actually see a good improvement to the Apple weather app as a result of this. I remember a few years ago Apple bought a fantastic public transit app (Embark?), shut it down and I still don't think their Maps app comes close to the original transit app.

Vaguely topical thought: I wonder if we're going to see a lot more of this. A large economic downturn means a lot of small, independent companies will struggle to survive. Being swallowed by a megacorp might be one of the few ways to keep something alive.

<comment><USER4> > I remember a few years ago Apple bought a fantastic public transit app > (Embark?), shut it down and I still don't think their Maps app comes close > to the original transit app.

When Edwin Howard Armstrong invented FM radio, he was working for RCA, which had everything invested in AM radio, an incompatible technology. RCA chose not to invest, and used their political clout to lobby the FCC to cripple FM radio, and their lawyers to drive Armstrong into debt in a protracted legal battle. This drove Armstrong to suicide by defenestration. For companies like Apple, these acquisitions are more about killing competition than they are about improving their own services or user interfaces.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Howard_Armstrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Howard_Armstrong) [http://www.free-culture.cc/](http://www.free-culture.cc/)

<comment><USER5> I don't know. How's Dark Sky competing with Apple? I don't think they derive much, if any, revenue from the Weather app. More likely they're paying for the data.

<comment><USER6> Maybe this is the start of the Epic Games business model.

Buy things and make them exclusive just so no one else can have them.

<comment><USER7> E^3 model[0], different parameters.

[0] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extingu...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish)

<comment><USER8> I mean in Epic's case, its really more like movie/tv/book deals, except with much more favourable terms to the creators.

<comment><USER9> You forgot to add with more restrictions, decreased customer satisfaction, upsetting early supporters, and an incomplete storefront that barely has enough online features to state it was built in the last 2 decades.

That is in the case of Epic not the OP.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > Android and Wear OS App

> The app will no longer be available for download. Service to existing users > and subscribers will continue until July 1, 2020, at which point the app > will be shut down. Subscribers who are still active at that time will > receive a refund.

IBM bought the Weather Underground app and ruined it, and now Dark Sky was bought by Apple and they're ruining that too. Now I will have zero good weather apps for Android. Just so Apple can flex on Google, even though I was a paying customer for both. During a major pandemic when public services are heavily reduced and poor access to good weather apps could put people in danger.

Extremely disgusting and extremely horrible. Always feels great to know that my reward for supporting startups is to be cannon fodder to rounding errors at major corporations.

<comment><USER11> I cannot begin to say how much IBM ruined Weather Underground. The app was _perfect_! I was thrilled to pay for it.

Now it's probably the worst app on my phone and I should just delete it. It takes forever to start, more than half the time it loads no data, and even if it is loaded the UI redesign has made the whole thing slow and useless.

Would love suggestions for another app on Android.

<comment><USER12> Restating a comment from about a year ago[0]:

If you are in the United States, nothing beats getting the forecast straight from the horses mouth (NWS that is). Some companies are notorious for producing 30+ day forecasts, which can't have any meaningful levels of skill.

NOAA/NWS should just create their own mobile application. I use Wx[1], which parses NWS data directly and can be found on f-droid[2] and g---le play.

Granted, Wx doesn't follow Material Design for Android in the slightest, but I like it that way because it's very information-dense, snappy, and light (unlike r--ct "native" and other JS toolkits out there).

[0]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19775291](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19775291)

[1]: [https://gitlab.com/joshua.tee/wx](https://gitlab.com/joshua.tee/wx)

[2]: [https://f-droid.org/en/packages/joshuatee.wx/](https://f-droid.org/en/packages/joshuatee.wx/)

<comment><USER13> Why do you feel the need to censor the words Google and React?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Let's not forget that, at least in the US, weather data is publicly funded and excellent forecasts are available at a very granular level. For example, here's the weather at Apple Park: [https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-122.009263237...](https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-122.009263237495&lat=37.336696137840946)

... And here's the graph for up-to-the-minute detail: [https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=37.3367&lon=-1...](https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=37.3367&lon=-122.0093&unit=0&lg=english&FcstType=graphical)

It ain't pretty, but it works and you've already paid for it.

<comment><USER15> > It ain't pretty, but it works and you've already paid for it.

I've been following the public weather data scene for a long time and I'm pretty sure that UX for all the NOAA/NWS web sites is horrible by design, so to speak.

After all, there are plenty of well designed .gov sites (e.g. [https://recreation.gov/](https://recreation.gov/)), but just try browsing around weather.gov for a few minutes. It's horrible. I mean, the data is top- notch and it technically works, but the experience is awful. Weather.gov has had the exact same site for at least a decade.

This is completely speculative, but I would not be surprised to find a link between campaign contributions from the likes of the The Weather Channel and the decision to completely underfund the web development teams at NWS. Nothing else explains why some of the United States most valuable public data is presented on a web site barely more functional than Craigslist.

<comment><USER16> The stagnation of the public NOAA site is mostly AccuWeather's doing.

The local radar maps still use flash for loop animation so they're going to have to do something in the next year to keep that going.

[https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=DIX&product=NCR&over...](https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=DIX&product=NCR&overlay=11101111&loop=yes)

<comment><USER17> What did AccuWeather do?

<comment><USER16> They lobbied to prevent open access to tax payer funded data. NOAA is intentionally underfunded to prevent them from making a modern site as a compromise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> As an Android user that uses Dark Sky: Fuck you.

Everyone else is congratulating the team on a job well done, I'm not. I rely on Dark Sky because there are no better services, and it is a service I pay for.

Now I'm going to have to switch to some second rate weather app that can't predict the weather worth a damn because it just regurgitates the NWS.

God fucking damnit.

<comment><USER19> yes I agree. It may sound extreme but this small decision has actually turned me off from ever purchasing an apple product again (I do own an iPhone now but don't frequently use it. There is just no consumer friendly reason possible to shut the Android app off.

<comment><USER20> Especially because it's not the default weather app on any Android device. Users have to seek it out. They're not punishing every android user, just the ones that have already supported the application they've purchased.

It's spiteful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> > Our API service for existing customers is not changing today, but we will no > longer accept new signups. The API will continue to function through the end > of 2021.

And yet another functional API shut down and privatized. This is the way of the web now, a few companies owning the data, and nothing cool left to mess around with.

I can't be the only one who has noticed this trend happening for years. You used to be able to scroll to the footer of practically any service and find an API link. No more.

<comment><USER22> > _a few companies owning the data_

The data are public [1]. Dark Sky _et al_ process and repackage those data, along with their own analytics and UI.

[1] [https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo- web/webservices/v2](https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/webservices/v2)

<comment><USER23> As someone that's tried using the weather.gov API, let me just say it's atrociously bad. I'm sure the data is accurate and all, but the API is actively hostile towards developers.

<comment><USER24> The API does not seem that bad at all. Maybe it's been improved?

[https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web- api](https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web-api)

You can turn lat/long into a grid point:

[https://api.weather.gov/points/39.7456,-97.0892](https://api.weather.gov/points/39.7456,-97.0892)

Then a grid point into a forecast:

[https://api.weather.gov/gridpoints/TOP/31,80/forecast](https://api.weather.gov/gridpoints/TOP/31,80/forecast)

If you have your own GIS you can presumably store the grid points yourself.

<comment><USER23> If you don't have precipitation data, then I would agree that it's fine. Their hourly forecast data is quite friendly.

But I wanted precipitation data so I had to use this endpoint: [https://api.weather.gov/gridpoints/TOP/31,80](https://api.weather.gov/gridpoints/TOP/31,80)

That endpoint groups hour-by-hour forecasts (see below) together to deduplicate data, but it makes it very painful to parse. For instance, "2020-03-31T15:00:00+00:00/PT4H" means that value is valid for 4 hours beginning at 2020-03-31T15:00:00+00:00. The durations varied from time interval to time interval and it made it super annoying to parse through.

{ "validTime": "2020-03-31T15:00:00+00:00/PT4H", "value": 0 }, { "validTime": "2020-03-31T19:00:00+00:00/PT1H", "value": 2 }, { "validTime": "2020-03-31T20:00:00+00:00/PT3H", "value": 4 },

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> "We're thrilled to have the opportunity to reach far more people, with far more impact, than we ever could alone."

I generally don't mind "our incredible journey" posts that much, but I wonder how much mental gymnastics you need to justify that statement when you're shutting down platforms.

Congrats to the Dark Sky team though. I've enjoyed using it. Time to look for a replacement as I only use the Android app and website. At this point, I'm tempted to see what I can build for myself with government provided APIs: [https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web- api](https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web-api)

<comment><USER26> If  shuts down the 1M+ (less than 5M) Google[1] accounts and then this weather app becomes the default system backing Siri, there will be a lot more users than the Google Play store users Dark Sky is losing.

Right now, Apple's weather is backed by Yahoo! so my guess is that Yahoo! is going away and all 1 billion  devices will now be using Dark Sky.

[1] - [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.darksky.da...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.darksky.darksky&hl=en_US)

<comment><USER27> Wait, so HN normally filters the more odd Unicode characters, but _does not_ filter codes from the Private Use Area?



Note: Since this is the _Private Use_ area, the character you used does not display the same on every device. In my browswer, it displays as a box containing "F8FF"; if I copy it to a nearby terminal window, it shows up as "(t)". According to the ConScript (unofficial) Unicode Registry for private use characters¹, the character you used is the "KLINGON MUMMIFICATION GLYPH". I assume that you meant to display some sort of Apple logo?

1\. [http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/klingon.html](http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/klingon.html)

<comment><USER28> It renders as the Apple logo on Apple devices, yes.

Although a Klingon Mummification Glyph sounds much more awesome.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> > Our goal has always been to provide the world with the best weather > information possible, to help as many people as we can stay dry and safe, > and to do so in a way that respects your privacy.

I don't understand how being acquired by Apple helps further that goal. Removing support for non-Apple devices seems to drastically lower the number of people who you are helping.

I am interested in seeing what happens to this service moving forward as it sounds like the API may be closed off completely by 2021 as well.

<comment><USER30> > I don't understand how being acquired by Apple helps further that goal. > Removing support for non-Apple devices seems to drastically lower the number > of people who you are helping.

I would imagine that DarkSky will become the basis for the default weather apps in iOS and macOS, and the number of people who use those defaults is drastically higher than the number of people who use DarkSky iOS/Android as a third-party app. The total addressable market shrinks, but the functional number of users increases.

<comment><USER31> That thoroughly misses the point. They could do both. There is zero reason to shrink the addressable market other than Apple not wanting to play with others.

<comment><USER32> We may not agree (and I don't agree with Apple's move here) but it's hardly surprising that they would shut it down for their direct competitor platform.

<comment><USER33> Let's not forget that it is/was a paid subscription on Android, so offering it for free on iOS and keeping paid on Android would still give them a significant edge. Somebody else in this thread mentioned that Shazam is still available on Android even after the acquisition, so it's definitely not as obvious as you suggest.

<comment><USER32> Correct, and Apple Music and Apple TV are available on all platforms too. But both bring tens of millions of paid subscribers.

While I don't know what Dark Sky's paid base is, it's probably way smaller than that.

<comment><USER30> Not only that, but presumably if Dark Sky becomes the base for the iOS default Weather app, then there won't be a DS standalone iOS app. So they wouldn't just be maintaining a port, it would be an entire Android app with no iOS equivalent.

<comment><USER34> I mean, they could just simply release it as a new Apple Weather app on Android. Just like they did with Apple Music.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I get that these dumb acquisition blog-posts are practically lifted from a template and hardly mean anything, but please don't tell me that your goal is to "to help as many people as we can stay dry and safe" in practically the same breath that you announce you are killing the app on the world's most popular mobile platform.

<comment><USER36> But presumably will instead be pre-installed on the second most popular mobile platform.

<comment><USER37> >Pre-installed and probably impossible to remove.

Thanks for nothing creators of Dark Sky.

<comment><USER36> So the same as the existing Weather app?

<comment><USER38> Weather app is not impossible to remove and hasn't been for a long time.

source: I just deleted mine

<comment><USER36> Is there any reason to think a Dark Sky powered Apple Weather app will work differently?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> > Android and Wear OS App

> The app will no longer be available for download. Service to existing users > and subscribers will continue until July 1, 2020, at which point the app > will be shut down. Subscribers who are still active at that time will > receive a refund.

I understand that Apple has no obligation to support a platform that is not their own, but this really hurts to hear after using Dark Sky on Android and the API for _years_

<comment><USER40> I agree, this seems like a cheap shot with no actual benefit.

<comment><USER41> It's important to acknowledge that there is a benefit: Apple products' value increases in relation to other platforms' when they introduce more exclusive offerings. The right to do this without repercussions is hurting IT. Big IT business is rife with anti-competitive crap that noone should put up with.

<comment><USER42> You really think Apple (or anyone else) should be forced to support software on a competing platform? That's absurd.

It's a crappy decision on their part, no doubt. But saying it should be _illegal_ is way out of line.

<comment><USER41> You can always come up with a ludicrous policy; it doesn't detract from the potential of regulation. Would you accept General Motors buying freeways and not allowing others' platforms on it? Competition must be regulated.

Also, isn't the barrier between iOS and Android devices artificial? I don't see a veritable technical reason why the two platforms can't be compatible.

<comment><USER42> > Also, isn't the barrier between iOS and Android devices artificial?

No, not even remotely. They are completely different operating systems.

<comment><USER41> Not processors though, right? OSX and Windows are distinct as well, but Web apps are portable. The main reason why there isn't an analogue native standard is that the economics incentivize walled gardens.

<comment><USER42> Web apps are not actually "applications" in the sense we're talking about here and are wholly irrelevant.

<comment><USER41> Sounds more like they're not helping your argument.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is really, really disappointing. I've been pretty critical of Dark Sky at times for being mediocre for more than maybe 12 hours out, but for very short term forecasts it worked great. I spent a fair amount of time outdoors and getting a 30 minute heads-up for "drizzle" versus "heavy rain" was excellent and really let me time how long to stay outside for.

I'd really, really like a replacement on Android. While Wunderground could be it, it's unfortunately not. The app is heavy and crappy and ad-laden and weirdly non-nonsensical.

<comment><USER44> Windy is really great and they seem to try to foster a great community. They have weather apps for android or ios

[https://www.windy.com/](https://www.windy.com/)

<comment><USER29> Thanks for the suggestion, at first glance things look pretty nice. Hopefully their mobile app is as nice as their website.

<comment><USER45> Their mobile app is amazing it's basically a clone of the website so all the features are on the app as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Shutting down Android functionality is interesting since Apple did not do that for the Shazam acquisition in 2018 (the PR for that doesn't mention Android at all: [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/09/apple-acquires- shazam...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/09/apple-acquires-shazam- offering-more-ways-to-discover-and-enjoy-music/))

In fact, Apple has released more apps for Android such as Apple Music in recent years.

<comment><USER47> The difference I think is the scale and name recognition of Shazam and wanting to get new customers via Apple Music. They can even say something like "with an iPhone you don't even need an app for Shazam, you can just use Siri", but that works better if non-Apple users know what Shazam is. while this they will probably retire to be used as the nameless backend to the default weather app.

<comment><USER48> Still, killing DarkSky on Android seems to offer little gain while hurting DarkSky supporters and generating ill will. I hope Apple and DarkSky can reconsider this decision.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> "We have always been committed to bringing you accurate, timely weather forecasts, and our acquisition by Apple will help us further that goal more than ever, principally by look how much money I made oh my God that's an obscene amount that's sitting in my bank account right now, for that much money I can almost believe this is best for users wow"

</comment><comment><USER50> Just a dirty move to shove aside all of us paying Android users. Was going to look at going back to Apple for my next phone but this just brought my opinion of Apple business practices back down to the garbage heap.

I am disappointed in the founders for letting that be a part of the acquisition.

<comment><USER51> As a paying Dark Sky user on Android, this is very disappointing. I'm extra disappointed since I was under the illusion that Dark Sky was more of a public service entity than a take-the-money-and-run startup. I'll do better due diligence before buying in the future.

I'll be filing this story under the general theme: rich company distorts genuine social impact rewards and ends up making people poorer in aggregate. Sadly this just seems normal these days...

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Myself and a few fellow HNers are interested in discussing building an open source alternative to Dark Sky's API. I will have to find/build something that meets this need for my business (bractlet.com), anyway.

If you are interested in helping contribute in any way (by coding, providing requirements, etc.), or just want to lurk, please email me: `brian${'at'}bractlet${'dot'}com`

I'll get us into a discussion forum of some sort so we can confer.

I would clarify that I'm _mostly_ interested in weather data for the United States right now, but am certainly not limiting this effort based on that.

</comment><comment><USER53> > Our goal has always been to provide the world with the best weather > information possible

Sounds like they gave up on their goal or changed the definition of "the world" to 13% [1] of smartphone users.

I always loved Dark Sky as an Android user, guess I'll find something else.

[1] [https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market- share/os](https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os)

<comment><USER54> Seems like many corporations, executives, politicians are blatantly contradicting themselves in the past few weeks

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> > "Android and Wear OS App"

> "The app will no longer be available for download. Service to existing users > and subscribers will continue until July 1, 2020, at which point the app > will be shut down. Subscribers who are still active at that time will > receive a refund."

That's unfortunate. I have been using it for years. Any recommended alternatives?

<comment><USER56> This is awful, atleast they are offering a refund but there is no point they couldn't just maintain the Android app

<comment><USER57> Focus is likely the reason they don't want to do it.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

<comment><USER56> Every other company maintains two apps, here there is already an existing app.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> I'm sure this move will break a lot of smart homes. The Dark Sky API was pretty popular among HomeAssistant users (myself included). So I'll have to figure out how to work with the data from DWD (German weather service). I'm pretty sure they won't get aquired by <insert any big company here>.

</comment><comment><USER59> This seems like the type of acquisition that would go unnoticed by the authorities in terms of anti-monopoly regulations, but probably should be. This is a less expensive way of building a moat than trying to merge with samsung or the like, but bit by bit you can build a huge amount of lockin by taking complementors to your competitors off the market.

<comment><USER60> So what would be the difference if Apple just built all the features of Dark Sky into the default Weather app and crushed Dark Sky leaving them with no market?

And as far as they would still have Android, we all know that the Android market isn't nearly as profitable for app developers as the iOS market. They wouldn't have received any money. Why would you want the government to tell developers who you could sell your property to? How would that affect the entire startup ecosystem? Would investors only want to invest money on companies that could go public? Especially seeing that for example only two YC backed companies have ever gone public.

Also, if the government did stop Apple from acquiring Dark Sky, are they also going to stop Apple from hiring the developers, the developers let their app rot and Apple still has them to integrate the best features of Dark Sky into the Weather app?

I'm always amazed at how willing people on HN are to give up their freedom and independence to the government.

<comment><USER59> I didn't impute that the anti-monopoly regulations are necessarily a good thing or a desirable thing. Just that, if you want to stop monopolies, you're overlooking one of the most powerful ways that they can get built. Anti- monopoly regulations should be investigating this, but they don't. Whether or not we should have anti-monopoly regulations is a different question (and I don't think monopolies are a moral evil inherently and are if anything essential in some areas to drive innovation) But if you want to fight monopolies, you need to be looking at things like this.

<comment><USER61> Apple doesn't have a monopoly in anything so why would anti-trust regulations apply?

<comment><USER59> The idea is to prevent monopolies before they happen. If antitrust gets involved in a merger they dont want to let the merger happen and then reverse it, the idea is to prevent the merger from happening in the first place

<comment><USER61> Apple isn't close to having a monopoly in anything. So there isn't any action that regulators could block which would prevent a monopoly.

Also all the markets that Apple are involved in are highly competitive. Computers, mobile phones, tablets, video/music streaming, credit cards, online payments, and headphones are all highly competitive with healthy competition.

Additionally when Apple enters a new market they are normally increasing the level of competition not reducing it, and that competition has often changed the face of those industries. If anything Apple increases the health of industries they enter.

Anti-trust regulations aren't there to harm big companies, they are there to promote the health of markets by increasing competitive pressure.

I'll go out on a limb now and speculate that the existence of Apple has made the use of anti-trust regulations less likely or necessary in the markets where it is active in.

If Apple had a monopoly in mobile phones and they used that monopoly to try and create a monopoly in headphones then I could understand the call for bringing in the regulators. But the current situation is nowhere near that. You can even buy Bose headphones in Apple stores.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> As an Apple user, it's always a bit bittersweet seeing announcements like this. It often means we'll see some nice upgrades to Apple services, but I feel bad for the non-Apple consumers of this info. It's not just Android, but 3rd party iOS apps benefit from the Dark Sky API as well (I use Carrot Weather which uses it for some of their feeds). Aside from that, it's good to see a great team get some well deserved rewards for their notoriously great product. I just wish there were a better way for great devs to get rewarded.

<comment><USER63> It was only last year that Carrot lost access to the IBM Weather Underground API, and now they will have to replace Dark Sky too.

I'm guessing a brand new Catalyst Weather app is coming in iOS 14.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> The really crummy part about the abandonment of the Android user base is that Darksky-now-Apple's user base will lose the end-user weather reporting from the Android user segment. Dark Sky would sometimes report rain instead of snow, snow instead of rain, showers instead of downpours, etc. I could provide feedback that the report was wrong, and how it was wrong.

<comment><USER65> I did this too, but it always felt like shouting into the void. There was no indication that that feature did anything except placebo.

<comment><USER64> Optimistically, I hoped that the feedback helped improve the pinpoint weather forecasting. Worst case, it functioned as a snow excitment button that I could press.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> What a shame. Dark Sky was the best option for me. I live in a small town that shares a zip code with a larger neighboring town. Most weather apps report the weather of the neighboring town, the big problem with that is that I live 2000 feet higher than the neighboring town, causing drastic weather differences.

Dark sky was the best I had found, but not perfect, nearly once a week I would report the weather since Dark Sky reported that it was partly cloudy when really it was snowing.

Unfortunately since I'm on Android, I'll have to find something else. It's a shame since I've been paying for their upgraded service as long as I've had the app.

<comment><USER67> Same here, Android user who really loved both their app and website. Must be nice for them, getting burried in cash, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> I hope that someday we will have an anti-trust regime that scrutinizes this kind of thing more carefully.

One of the main things I liked about Dark Sky was that they charged for their app. They were good, people knew they were good and paid for it, so they had a business model other than acquisition.

I guess there goes that. Wunderground was completely crippled after their acquisition by the weather channel and became a useless heap of junk; looks like it's Dark Sky's turn. Weather Underground was a great resource, but they never got a funding model that really worked; their subscription-based "ad removal" didn't really work for me.

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm sending an email to tell them how disappointed I feel as a long-time subscriber about them maliciously (since there is no other more generous explanation) shutting down the service for Android users: [https://darksky.net/contact](https://darksky.net/contact)

<comment><USER69> > since there is no other more generous explanation

How about "Apple just bought a really talented team of developers and want them to work on the Next Big Thing at Apple rather than spend their time on a product that doesn't do anything for Apple's strategy?"

<comment><USER33> Sure, that's the classic "it's been a wonderful journey" scenario where the whole product is sunset, but shutting down just a single platform is not as obvious.

<comment><USER70> One could easily argue that Apple is sunsetting the Android app for one of the same reasons we can't install MacOS on a non-Apple PC (without violating the EULA): Apple doesn't like supporting unpredictable platforms, and doesn't want to be in a situation where people blame them for other people's bugs and unexpected under-the-hood changes.

<comment><USER33> Do you really believe that Apple doesn't allow macOS on PCs because of "unpredictability"? I think it's pretty obvious by now that bundling is a great way to differentiate their hardware, charge a premium, and lock users in their ecosystem. Remember the people who complained about issues with the butterfly keyboard, but kept buying Macbooks just because of macOS?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Uh oh, DuckDuckGo has been using Dark Sky for its weather results for the past year [1]. Wonder what they're going to replace it with once the API shuts down?

[1] [https://spreadprivacy.com/duckduckgo-weather- results/](https://spreadprivacy.com/duckduckgo-weather-results/)

<comment><USER72> DuckDuckGo already uses Apple Maps, so their relationship with Apple exists today.

<comment><USER73> anyone can do that: [https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs](https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> Interesting that they just unilaterally state that your data is now subject to Apple's privacy policy.

Checking the policy in effect before the acquisition[1], it seems they disclosed the possibility of transferring data to an acquirer.

[1] [https://web.archive.org/web/20200311172542/https://darksky.n...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200311172542/https://darksky.net/privacy)

<comment><USER75> This is sadly fairly standard verbiage for most privacy policies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> I used Dark Sky API for plotting weather (temperature) data against COVID-19 cases. Of the other weather API services, I found this to be most comprehensive for historical weather data; although I doubt whether there is any universal weather API which provides 'actual historical recorded weather data' instead of forecasted data.

I emailed Dark Sky's sales team several weeks back reg API usage and didn't receive any reply; I presumed it could be because of quarantine and didn't follow it up. But, now I feel it could be because of the uncertainty from their sale to Apple although the blog says that the API will function till the end of 2021.

[1][https://abishekmuthian.com/covid-19-temperature- correlation/](https://abishekmuthian.com/covid-19-temperature-correlation/)

</comment><comment><USER77> Money talks, I guess.

One thing this doesn't do: incentivise me to buy an iPhone.

</comment><comment><USER78> > Our API service for existing customers is not changing today, but we will no > longer accept new signups. The API will continue to function through the end > of 2021.

I believe this could be the main reason for the purchase. Apple is still using The Weather Channel as the data source for their stock app. If you take a look at their website you'll soon realize they've jumped the ship and are highlighting articles such as "Koalas rescued from Australia's Bushfires Return Home".

It appears that The Weather Channel cares very little about showing the actual weather, and switching to a higher quality data source that's now in-house is probably a really good idea.

<comment><USER79> The Weather Company (which no longer owns The Weather Channel) is part of IBM and also owns WeatherUnderground which has a pretty extensive personal weather station network. I'm skeptical that DarkSky's data is that much higher quality even if weather.com is a mess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> "Apple acquires" "Google acquires"

Shit like I need any more existential dread right now.

Wake me up when these phrases don't mean that a huge part of the company's userbase gets fucked.

I don't know if this is any better than when they used to just clone 3rd party killer apps (Sherlock). I guess it's more polite to hand over a big bag of money first.

</comment><comment><USER81> The first version of Dark Sky was web application called forecast.io. This sparked an interest in me that web apps can be beautiful and to the ordinary user, look like an "app".

I feel they were one of the early adopters of the "PWA" mindset, before the term was coined. Great blog post from 2013: It's not a web app. It's an app you install from the web. [https://web.archive.org/web/20161221014014/https://blog.dark...](https://web.archive.org/web/20161221014014/https://blog.darksky.net/its- not-a-web-app-its-an-app-you-install-from-the-web/)

Secondly DuckDuckGo uses Dark Sky for its own weather information. I wonder what the alternative will be now.

</comment><comment><USER82> This is (selfishly) disappointing as I just built my first Twitter bot[0] using their API. At least it can be live in it's current form until EOY 2021.

[0] [https://twitter.com/EmojiWeatherVI](https://twitter.com/EmojiWeatherVI)

</comment><comment><USER83> Title should be 'Apple acquires DarkSky'

Everyone has a price.

</comment><comment><USER84> I'm currently exploring [https://www.climacell.co](https://www.climacell.co) as a replacement for Dark Sky's API.

[https://www.climacell.co/blog/dark-sky-weather-api- customers...](https://www.climacell.co/blog/dark-sky-weather-api-customers- can-now-move-to-climacell-for-the-same-price)

They also offer consumer apps for Android and iOS. The apps' privacy policy page is currently broken, I've asked them to fix it: [https://www.climacell.co/legal/app-privacy- policy](https://www.climacell.co/legal/app-privacy-policy)

</comment><comment><USER24> Well, this sucks.

Can you remember the last time you were happy to hear about an acquisition? Have these ever been anything but negative in the past decade?

</comment><comment><USER85> Very disappointed. I've been a Dark Sky API user since 2015. It's a huge disappointment that a cash flush, closed ecosystem company is purchasing and shutting down a unique data source for point prediction weather forecasts.

</comment><comment><USER37> What a disappointment. I've been building off of this API on some personal projects and now I can throw that away.

</comment><comment><USER86> Dark Sky is a very nice implementation, but what makes them unique, actually? They gather data from public sources, there's no user input to worry about having to censor, there's no networking effect in order to make it useful.

It's basically a perfect candidate for a lifestyle project. How big is the team? I'd gather the whole thing could be re-implemented (at least for a single market like US and Canada) in a few months by a single competent backend developer who knows a thing or two about UI/UX as well.

Anyone has any idea as to the purchase price?

<comment><USER87> The historical weather data is very unique! Everybody is talking about forecasts, damn, I use Dark Sky to look back in the time. They aggregated this data from a lot of sources over a very large time span and with very good coverage. Nothing can compare to this. Nothing I know about..

<comment><USER86> Why would you need to look at historical data? I'm sure other places provide it as well; it's available in the web-interface of AccuWeather and many other services, too, for example.

<comment><USER87> AccuWeather provides only data for the day before. That is not very historical. I need to fetch data from years in the past to assign it to dated assets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm very disappointed to see Apple consume and extinguish a great service.

<comment><USER88> "Extinguish" assumes they have no intention to replace third-party data harvesters with their own service.

Apple currently redirects their platforms' weather data HTTP requests to third-party services like Weather.com, that are known for aggressively marketing and reselling user data as a primary revenue stream.

Seems more likely they see this as a way to improve weather data for their customers without seeing their customers' data abused for marketing and tracking.

<comment><USER16> They could just get the weather data directly from the national bodies that provide it. It's not like they were hurting for money to staff their own weather division.

<comment><USER89> Companies like The Weather Channel (which owns weather.com) have been fighting open access to government funded weather data. What you can get now lacks the detail required to do serious predictions or building anything useful. Dark Sky kinda found a workaround by processing radar imagery directly.

To your point, it looks like they just spent their money to staff a weather division.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> Sad news. Their API was very good. What will be a good alternative with global coverage and support for daily detail a few years in the past?

<comment><USER91> Very sad indeed. I haven't found anything comparable with global coverage or historical data support that's reasonably priced or has an easy to use self serve UI.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> Regarding the people appearing to rage against Apple for dropping Android support, claiming how this move turns them away from Apple etc., that's how I've felt about Google since they took over YouTube and continued to gimp iPad support for years (like refusing to support the native picture-in-picture feature).

</comment><comment> kube-system Ugh. We just implemented a bunch of functionality using their API. Now we have no path to production with any of it.

</comment><comment><USER93> I have an (unpopular) iOS app that consumes the Dark Sky API. Recently it hit number 7 in the weather category, despite only having had 2 downloads in the previous 23 days. I thought that was rather peculiar at the time and wondered if Apple had intervened somehow, for some reason I couldn't understand.

</comment><comment><USER94> I never would have imagined paying money for a weather app, but last year I did just that by purchasing Dark Sky on iOS. It's just that much better than other weather apps I've tried.

I hope the service continues to be the best in the business as far as accuracy and ease of use goes. Congrats to the team as well.

</comment><comment><USER95> I can't help but feel like the character of this thread would have been much more severe if it were google shutting out all iOS users from one of their services. I do see a lot of ticked off android customers but a surprising lack of "break up these big companies" rhetoric.

</comment><comment><USER87> Oh no! C'est une catastrophe! Dark Sky was the API with affordable and reliable _historical_ weather data, which my own app depends on. Looking for an alternative will be hard, because there is none.. Damn! :( Monopoly at it's best. Why the hell do they shutdown the API???

<comment><USER96> Same :( Darksky was excellent in that you could put any coordinates and any date in the past and then it would give you hourly weather data. I also am struggling to find an alternative.

</comment></comment><comment><USER97> Wow really disappointed to see this, yet another great service gobbled up by a massive corporation.

Yet another overly saccharine acquisition letter about there being no better place for the tool than in the hands of one of the big tech companies.

Sorry for all android users to see yet another great app hit the dust.

</comment><comment><USER98> Oh no! DarkSky.net was my first open source Swift project (back when it was called ForecastIO)! I'm sad to see that the API seems to be going away next year.

[https://github.com/sxg/forecastio](https://github.com/sxg/forecastio)

</comment><comment><USER99> If you're looking for an alternative, try Weather Line. It has Dark Sky-like features and so so much more. I have no connection to the company, just love the product.

[http://weatherlineapp.com/](http://weatherlineapp.com/)

</comment><comment><USER100> I wonder if they ever used their barometer data. After announcing collection of barometric pressure from devices years ago, there was never an update.

FWIW I do this on Android in the US, expanding to iOS and internationally soon:

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.allclearwe...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.allclearweather.android)

Am I the only one doing barometric pressure data research on Android now? Maybe IBM does it, it's also hard to say.

The areas of research that Dark Sky did not follow through with are disappointing. They seemed very focused on making math-statistics estimates of forecasts and never doing the real hard science.

Maybe Apple will pick up the slack.

</comment><comment><USER48> I've been a big fan of Dark Sky ever since I discovered them through DuckDuckGo. I'm disappointed to see the API closed to new users, hopeful that they will become the default source for Apple weather apps, but most of all happy for the Dark Sky founders.

</comment><comment><USER101> The situation around weather apps really confuses me: my understanding is that most weather predictions come from massive networks of weather stations and very complicated and expensive simulation, both of which are publicly funded. This information must be available via some public API.

Making an app is "just" providing an interface to this. I don't mean that front end design is easy (as demonstrated by a lot of badly designed weather apps), but it does mean that most apps should give you exactly the same information.

With this in mind I just looked for a publicly funded app (so no adds, free) and ended up with Yr. Am I missing something here?

</comment><comment><USER102> Well this really sucks because I depend on that API. I am not happy about this one bit.

</comment><comment><USER103> It sounds like Dark Sky might do this but I'm curious how often various weather services check for correctness. I've seen the Apple Weather app (which I know is based on a 3rd party) tell me it's sunny and clear when it's raining outside more than once.

I also have this fiction that locally run weather services do better than internationally run. My fiction is that weather.com doesn't care if the weather is wrong in Japan or China or Africa they only care it's correct at their offices because the people that work there unconsciously would only notice when it's wrong in their area.

</comment><comment><USER104> On the one hand, I'm very happy that Dark Sky functionality will presumably become integrated with iOS's weather app. I love Dark Sky and have always found it weird I have to use 2 different weather apps. (And I'm happy for the founders for their $$$.)

On the other hand, I feel for Android/web users. Totally sucks to lose it.

Perhaps it will push Google to build similar functionality into the stock Android weather app though? That's how competition is supposed to work, after all.

The Dark Sky algorithm was always a super clever idea, but I'm not aware of them having patented anything. So I don't see any barrier.

</comment><comment><USER105> It's a genuine shame that the API has to be shut down as part of the transition. With Apple's pivot toward services, why couldn't a rebranded Apple Weather API join the ranks of the Apple Maps API?

</comment><comment><USER62> As an Apple user, it's always a bit bittersweet seeing announcements like this. It often means we'll see some nice upgrades to Apple services, but I feel bad for the non-Apple consumers of this info. It's not just Android, but 3rd party iOS apps benefit from the Dark Sky API as well (I use Carrot Weather which uses it for some of their feeds).

Aside from that, it's good to see a great team get some well deserved rewards for their notoriously great product. I just wish there were a better way for great devs to get rewarded.

</comment><comment><USER106> I mean, if true - I offer my congratulations to the Dark Sky founders and I wish them the best of luck.

That said - part of me is wondering, it's April 1st tomorrow. Part of me is REALLY hoping it is a joke too!

EDIT: Grammar!

<comment><USER10> It's a joke even if it's serious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> Hello, weather app developer here ([https://wg.tomaskafka.com](https://wg.tomaskafka.com))

As multiple people speculated on reasons, I believe it is very simple - <USER2> the acquisition, Apple didn't have weather data, and thus was forced to direct their users to weather.com, which is a terrible, ad-infested (and probably personal data harvesting) experience.

Don't forget, every weather provider gets hourly access to your real location, which is very valuable.

Dark Sky acquisition fixes that.

</comment><comment><USER108> I'm surprised I didn't see any comments about Weather Nerd [0]. I used to use Dark Sky but switched to this for more (at least in my opinion) features. I've been using it for a couple years and quite like it. It also has a "is it going to rain in the next hour"-type feature I use a lot.

[0] [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/weather- nerd/id958363882](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/weather-nerd/id958363882)

</comment><comment><USER109> Losing the website sucks. I use it on my Mac since there is no Dark Sky macOS app. Of course there's also no default Weather app on iPad.. I don't see that changing either.

</comment><comment><USER110> Since Apple is trying to grow service revenue, I wonder why they're not continuing to service API customers? It comes across as entirely anti- competitive.

</comment><comment><USER111> I use Dark Sky as my exclusive weather app, and I'm on iOS, so I suppose I should be happy.

Somehow it just feels like too much in too few hands.

Congratulations to Adam Grossman, though.

</comment><comment><USER112> > Our goal has always been to provide the world with the best weather > information possible, to help as many people as we can stay dry and safe, > and to do so in a way that respects your privacy. > > There is no better > place to accomplish these goals than at Apple

Congrats et al but above just plainly contradicts itself - "reach wider audience"..."limit app only to apple".

I'm sad and furious at the same time :(

</comment><comment><USER113> > Our goal has always been to provide the world with the best weather > information possible, to help as many people as we can stay dry and safe, > and to do so in a way that respects your privacy.

> There is no better place to accomplish these goals than at Apple.

This is then followed by a list of services being shut down and access limited.

Awful news for those of us who make a lot of use of the android app and api.

</comment><comment><USER114> If you are in Germany, consider buying into the German Meteorological Service (Deutscher Wetterdienst) apps instead.

[https://www.dwd.de/DE/leistungen/warnwetterapp/warnwetterapp...](https://www.dwd.de/DE/leistungen/warnwetterapp/warnwetterapp.html)

Also: they are free for member of emergency services.

</comment><comment><USER115> Plug for Hello Weather - my favorite weather app - on iOS and Android. 4 sources (including Dark Sky), great UI, responsive devs, and affordable subscription along with a generous free version - [https://helloweatherapp.com/](https://helloweatherapp.com/) No affiliation, just a happy customer.

</comment><comment><USER116> Good alternatives for both API and mobile Apps?

<comment><USER117> National Weather Service API. Drawback is it's only for the US though.

[https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web- api](https://www.weather.gov/documentation/services-web-api)

<comment><USER118> There are a number of global weather data providers in the world - AerisWeather (quite functional, great mapping too), Accuweather (big network but expensive and little instruction), OWM (not very full featured, more for commodity weather), Climacell (robust network but not sure about their data collection practices.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER119> The death of the API is terrible news. Wunderground shut down their API last year when they were acquired by TWC/IBM. That means the only weather providers with an API left are Foreca, ClimaCell, AccuWeather, Aeris, and MeteoGroup.

...and none of these are even vaguely as accurate (in the USA) as Dark Sky or Wunderground. It's a real loss.

</comment><comment><USER120> I've been annoyed by every smartphone-based weather app. They treat precipitation as a binary event (Dark Sky at least gives some indication of intensity in the short-term forecast), but it's not terribly useful in a Chicago winter to now know if  means flurries or stock up on canned goods.

</comment><comment><USER121> boo hoo, they won't let us use the least accurate source (outside US) anymore, I'm crying...

>AccuWeather's predictions were best for temperature averages and highs, probability of precipitation and wind speed. The Weather Channel and Weather Underground came top for low temperature predictions. Dark Sky came last in all these categories.

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/30/weather-f...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/30/weather- forecast-apps-smartphone-predictions-forecasting?&ampcf=1)

do yourself a favor and on Android install Geometric weather (open source, AccuWeather, simple layout), Today weather (more sources, quite nice looking), Windy (great maps) or Weather M8 (many sources, require adblock)

<comment><USER122> This may be actually the first useful comment on this subject (including my own!) - I know Windy well enough to know that for all its quality it's not a direct replacement, but will be glad to have a look at the others. Thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER123> Apple making this exclusive to apple makes me _less likely_ to switch to apple products. No app, including something as beloved as dark sky, is meaningful enough to get me to switch platforms, but if I had any good will towards apple it just went out the fucking window.

</comment><comment><USER124> Is [https://openweathermap.org/](https://openweathermap.org/) useful as an alternative? I haven't seen it mentioned in discussions about replacing Dark Sky, and I don't know enough about the field to compare it.

</comment><comment><USER125> Ah, another reminder of Jason Scott's talk [https://youtu.be/qh7EARxkxoU?list=PL7WR9B9eZNmxm8_LzP1Qf8xnN...](https://youtu.be/qh7EARxkxoU?list=PL7WR9B9eZNmxm8_LzP1Qf8xnN9crHRgNh&t=1873)

</comment><comment><USER126> This BETTER be an April Fools' Day joke. I've been using the android app with a subscription for years. If its not a joke, anyone have a recommendation for a replacement? The exact location rain data was my favorite feature.

</comment><comment><USER127> This makes it sounds like the forecast won't be available on the website after this summer? Actually kind of annoyed about this; it was great on desktop, and a nice sort of demo version of the full app on mobile.

<comment><USER128> Cue the Blizzard Doom guy saying "Do you guys not have phones?" as if that'd get us to stop using our grandpa boxes.

I'm not sure what's so terrible about a website that they're desperate to drop development on it. My guess is that juicy analytics data they get from the mobile app.

Edit: Except of course, Apple was the one buying. So what the heck do they stand to gain by killing the website?

</comment></comment><comment><USER129> Good for them but at the same time it is a shame for non Apple Users.

We use their embed widget quite heavily. Anyone know of any equivalents? I had a quick Google but can't find anything that looks totally equal in feature set.

</comment><comment><USER130> You may check ColorfulClouds Weather API [https://open.caiyunapp.com/ColorfulClouds_Weather_API](https://open.caiyunapp.com/ColorfulClouds_Weather_API)

</comment><comment><USER131> Apple, Google, Amazon etc acquires companies all the time, but this one seems to be a little bit special. For the layman like myself, I don't really understand it. Can someone give a quick explanation?

<comment><USER132> My guess would be to integrate it into their own weather app. Darksky has better forecasting than Apple's own weather app, which I believe is powered by the weather network.

</comment></comment><comment><USER133> >We're thrilled to have the opportunity to reach far more people, with far more impact, than we ever could alone.

A few sentences later:

>The app will no longer be available for download [on android]

Can anyone recommend a good alternative?

</comment><comment><USER134> I found dark sky to be uncannily accurate in DC. Predicting rainstorms to the minute.

But in Florida it's completely wrong about everything. Says clear sky's when it's overcast. No clue about rain.

Any ideas why that would be?

</comment><comment><USER135> Here I was finally getting over the time they acquired Lala for the sole purpose of murdering it. Now the good weather app on Android is heading for the slaughter too. Screw you, Apple.

</comment><comment><USER6> Disappointing to see Apple consume and extinguish a great service.

</comment><comment><USER136> Our SaaS product uses their API for a non-critical feature, I guess at some point we'll have to find an alternative. Any suggestions? (Happy to be pitched by competitors.)

</comment><comment><USER137> Well... that's blatantly anticompetitive. There are two mobile platforms: iOS and Android. The owner of iOS is buying apps and removing them from Android. Wtf.

</comment><comment><USER138> _Android and Wear OS App

The app will no longer be available for download_

Good on them for the aqusition but please, easy on the "Our goal has always been to provide the world ..." bullshit

</comment><comment> m-p-3 > Our goal has always been to provide the world with the best weather > information possible, to help as many people as we can stay dry and safe

Except those using Android.

</comment><comment><USER139> This is terrible news. I built a weather app with DarkSky API nearly 8 years ago and have been using it ever since.

I really hope I'll manage to find some alternative.

</comment><comment><USER140> I just bought a subscription for this app two months ago.

Said subscription isn't showing up on the Play Store anymore... so how do I go about getting a refund?

</comment><comment><USER141> Removing the Android and Wear OS apps? how very Apple

</comment><comment><USER142> Since they are shutting down their API. Anyone have recommendations for a single paid API service that provides global weather coverage?

</comment><comment><USER143> Noooo, the Android app and website are going away?

I've been using them the last several years and loved the simplicity and balance of detail.

That's awful.

</comment><comment><USER144> Worst April fool's joke of all time.

</comment><comment><USER145> Well, time to change location privacy setting from "Always" to "Never".

</comment><comment><USER146> I use Dark Sky all the time. Such a shame to have it locked up behind Apple's walls

</comment><comment><USER134> So why does Apple want this? What does it get them? Is it just an aquuihire? (Sp)

</comment><comment><USER147> Props to the author for explaining in the first line what the company does.

</comment><comment><USER148> So, what's the best minute level forecast Android app?

Plus, the best API alternative?

</comment><comment><USER149> damn, the website is my go-to source for weather, consistently accurate data and easy to access interface, especially for glance-at hourly predictions

</comment><comment><USER150> I wish I could try it but is not available in Europe.

</comment><comment><USER151> Damn, I've had the Android app for years. RIP

</comment><comment><USER152> In what world does Apple acquire Dark Sky lol?

</comment><comment><USER153> Out of curiosity, how much money did it take to get Dark Sky to fuck half their users? What was their soul worth?

</comment><comment><USER154> Shame on Apple. Hopefully the founders feel bad for letting this happen.

</comment><comment><USER155> we need to bring back anti-trust lawsuits.

</comment><comment><USER156> April fools?

</comment><comment><USER157> Good for them! I was using it when it was Forecast.io and had a simple API. They've been at it for what, 10 years? That's a long time for an equity event but its good to hear. I don't think this is doom-and-gloom apple will ruin it. Hopefully I'm not proven wrong.

</comment><comment><USER158> When you buy an Apple product or invest in them you support evil.

</comment><comment><USER159> Literally applied to a job posting hours ago.

</comment><comment><USER160> I wonder how much Apple paid. Maybe a mix of cash and shares as well?

</comment><comment><USER161> Android users looking for an alternative, CARROT is fun, accurate, and worth the money

[http://www.meetcarrot.com/weather/](http://www.meetcarrot.com/weather/)

<comment><USER162> Looks like Darksky is a provider for CARROT, are the other provider choices comparable?

<comment><USER161> Yes, Foreca, ClimaCell are good, AccuWeather, Aeris Weather and MeteoGroup are also available.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> Congrats to all part of the Dark Sky team!

There's a lot of gloom in here about the death of the android apps, which is sad to be sure, but there'll be more good apps.

Anyways, an exit and aquisition by Apple is exciting and worth feeling good about!

</comment><comment><USER163> Are there competitors to DarkSky out there? One of my startups is looking for hyper-local real-time weather forecasting and unless they keep things running as usual then we would probably need to find someone else.</comment>


HOWTO: Get tenure (2015) - <AUTHOR> http://matt.might.net/articles/tenure/ <comment><USER2> > (My Ph.D. advisor, perhaps the greatest and most passionate educator I have > ever known, received the excellence in teaching award and was then promptly > denied tenure.)

Wow. How to make your university Hell on Earth reduced to a single, easily actionable sentence.

I realise that is the norm. Still, a sad comment on what academia has become. As a parent paying tuition bills it particularly rankles.

<comment><USER3> > "*Still, a sad comment on what academia has become."

You are incorrectly treating academia as some kind of monolithic hivemind.

As I understand it, there's two broad categories of postsecondary institutions: research and teaching. (See, for example, the discussion here: [https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/49911/how-to- de...](https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/49911/how-to-determine-if- an-institution-is-a-research-or-teaching-university-in-the-u)) The prestigious universities are research institutions and all incentives are aligned toward doing research and getting grant money and that's why the author says what he says. (The classic joke letter, ostensibly written by one "Prof. Hardass Slavedriver", expresses well what the pressures are at a research university: [https://lifesciencephdadventures.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/a-...](https://lifesciencephdadventures.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/a-demotivational- letter/) .)

Teaching institutions focus more on the educational aspects but, having neither prestige, grant money, or endowments, they cannot provide as comprehensive a set of facilities, advanced courses, or the undergraduate research opportunities that a research university does.

So, for the student, it's really a trade-off when choosing between the two. Do I want to get a solid, middle-of-the-road education at a teaching school or do I want to go for broke and try and take advantage of the advanced educational opportunities at a research school?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Just a reminder to everyone that survivorship bias is a thing.

</comment><comment><USER5> One of the posters on the original thread asked if it was possible to raise children and get tenure with both parents working. Answer is yes, but not easy. If you are lucky to get an academic position near family who can help, that is a tremendous boost. Othewrise, even though many (most?) US universities have some kind of parental leave for either gender, it's generally not as much time off as one would like -- and everyone I know continues doing research while on parental leave; they just don't teach.

In our case, we had kids after I got tenure. (Didn't plan it that way, and wouldn't recommend it for everyone.) That made some things easier, though still not easy. Helps that we can afford good help, and even then it's hard to maintain the two careers.

<comment><USER6> I got tenure (last year) after having a kid (two years ago). We do have family in town, which as you say is a big help. We both took leave, and I basically did not do any research during my 12-week leave. I did meet occasionally with my students (they don't go on leave, after all).

So it is possible, and I strongly encourage men (or anyone who isn't the birth parent) who are on leave to do this -- the birth parent is much more constrained and this difference has been shown to lead to measurable difference in outcomes in the future for their careers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Discussed at the time: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10081136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10081136)

</comment><comment><USER8> At a community college: don't screw up too badly for four years. (And at least in California, it pays better than university, too!)

</comment><comment><USER9> This path closely resembles the reasons Stephen Hawking gave to why he succeeded when he only became serious after the ALS diagnosis.

</comment><comment><USER10> Blank

<comment><USER11> Doesn't this entirely miss the central point of this article?

This is what I took away:

-

 _Then it hit me: Life is too precious and too fleeting to waste my time on bullshit like tenure. I didn't become a professor to get tenure. I became a professor to make the world better through science. From this day forward, I will spend my time on problems and solutions that will matter. I will make a difference.

I stopped working on problems for the sole purpose of notching up a publication. I shifted gears to cybersecurity. I found a project on cancer in the med school. I joined a project in chemical engineering using super- computing to fight global warming.

Suddenly, my papers started getting accepted.

My grant proposals started getting funded._

-

I have always believed in the idea that success is an _outcome_. It cannot be maximized/optimized directly any more than you can increase your car's speed by grabbing and turning the speedometer needle. We need to focus on what matters. Success will follow.

<comment><USER10> Blank.

<comment><USER12> The post wasn't a question about how to get tenure, it was sharing a specific article with a specific argument. Matt and I spent thousands of hours on the same IRC channels as early as the late 90's and he's always been a gifted writer and his posts are well worth the time to read and critically think about.

Given the context, a blog-post-length comment about how to get tenure is not super relevant and a little odd. But then again, so is editing both of your posts to remove the content (and presumably eliminate any further discussion).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Autism is not a disability</comment>


Getting to 10x (Results): What Any Developer Can Learn from the Best - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/javascript-scene/getting-to-10x-results-what-any-developer-can-learn-from-the-best-54b6c296a5ef <comment><USER2> Be very careful from whom you take advice. If someone is not themselves 10x, it's unlikely that what they have to say is accurate or valuable.

The actual content of this article seems to be "we polled people who work on software, and they used positive adjectives to describe people they liked, and negative adjectives to describe people they didn't like". Then it ends with an advertisement for the author.

What any of this has to do with being objectively good at the discipline of programming, I have no idea.

</comment><comment><USER3> Looks very superficial.

There is an implicit assumption that developer skill is scalar and transitive. If Alice is better than Bob, then Alice is better than Bob at everything. If Alice is better than Bob, and Bob is better than Charlie, then Alice is better than Charlie. This may be true in a narrow niche or for a specific skill, but does not hold in general.

Then there's little to substantiate the claim that "Simply deciding to become a 10x developer will give you a huge advantage over the competition." Sounds like a slogan from the self-help section of a book store.

</comment><comment><USER4> I think with "10x developer" we mean somebody who does not only does things 10 times as fast but also does things differently to achieve this.

I think the number one prerequisite is to be in an environment where you actually can shine. You need a lot of autonomy to be a 10x developer and you also need an audience/management that recognizes good work. A lot of companies prefer average devs and predictable outcomes over excellent work.

</comment><comment><USER5> In a lot of software projects, a "10x developer" if they exist, would be overkill unless they literally could type 10 times faster. For your yet another SASS CRUD app a lot of times, you just need a lot of coders and one or two architects to keep everything consistent.

Most companies don't need to "hire only the best".

<comment><USER2> [http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html](http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The '10x' meme needs to die.

<comment><USER2> Why? The difference between average programmers and the best ones is actually much higher than 10x.

<comment><USER5> When most managers talk about the "10x developer" they are thinking a developer who can single handedly produce 10x as much code.

I do agree with part of the article. The best way to be a 10x developer is to be a force multiplier.

I consider myself a capable architect. I can do front end (barely), back end development, database administration, devops/netops (with AWS), talk to customers, create presentations, strategize with CxOs and lead teams. I have at some point in the recent past done all of it.

When I was the dev lead, I was very much a {some multiplier} developer but only because I could mentor and guide other developers, Devops and to a lesser extent QA. My resume of things that I could honestly say "I led" or spearheaded in a short amount of time was pretty impressive.

On the other hand, I purposefully self demoted got another job at a smaller company where any given day I'm wearing one of those hats - developer, software architect, Devops or AWS infrastructure architect.

But as an individual contributor who spends at most 20% of my time mentoring, I'm nowhere near the force multiplier I use to be. Anytime I am playing the role of the "multi certified AWS Architect" to clients, or spending time talking to customers as the "software architect responsible for X". I'm not developing. My value add over having multiple people having those roles is only the time saved on communication overhead and hopefully I don't do too much "negative work".

<comment><USER2> Force multipliers are definitely a thing, but I think that's a different thing. You can have both at the same time.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


A brief history of the Web and web development - <AUTHOR> https://www.lopezferrando.com/a-brief-history-of-the-web/ <comment><USER2> I gave very much the same presentation to my co-workers. One thing it's missing is a discussion of CGI (in what is labeled the static web era), and how it's foundational to later frameworks. I think he must have touched on the mistake that "Server Pages" were (just before explaining server-side MVC frameworks), but the only implementation he mentions is PHP.</comment>


Show HN: jql – Easier jq Alternative with a Lispy Syntax Written in Go - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/cube2222/jql <comment><AUTHOR> Hey, author here. Christmas Eve, 22 pm, after having eaten with my family, I was browsing HN (because what else could you be doing then), and stumbled upon this comment: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21860107](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21860107)

It inspired me to create an alternative to jq with more of a Lispy syntax, as I think the original is awesome but also fairly cryptic for anything more advanced than single field selection.

Overall it was a fun few-day project, and was also very educational in terms of writing a parser in Go. (I used goyacc before in the sql parser of OctoSQL[1], however, that one is copied from vitess, so I've never built one from scratch, only customised an existing one. It's really pleasant overall and the code is very simple, so I encourage you to take a look[2].

I'd love to hear any feedback, comments or potential improvements you can think of.

[1]:[https://github.com/cube2222/octosql](https://github.com/cube2222/octosql)

[2]:[https://github.com/cube2222/jql/tree/master/jql/parser](https://github.com/cube2222/jql/tree/master/jql/parser)

<comment><USER2> Looks good but there seems to be a missing explanation gap between switching from `(elem "countries")` and dropping the `elem`s to just `("countries")`. Why is `elem` able to be dropped? Is it the default function or something? I didn't follow that big jump in the readme.

<comment><USER3> This feature can probably be thought of similarly to Clojure's map access via keywords: if you write `(:something map-var)`, you'll get the value of the field ':something' in the 'map-var' variable. I.e. keywords can be 'executed', and such calls get translated to map access.

<comment><AUTHOR> Indeed, it just extends to values, and works recursively if it's an array or map.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> So I guess we all know [https://jsonnet.org](https://jsonnet.org), right? It's advertised as a data templating language. Interestingly enough, you can also use it as a querying tool. The first four examples on the jql page can be translated to Jsonnet as follows:

        $ jsonnet -e "(import 'test.json').countries[0]"
        $ jsonnet -e "(import 'test.json').countries[0:2]"
        $ jsonnet -e "[x.name for x in (import 'test.json').countries]"
        $ jsonnet -e "std.objectFields((import 'test.json').countries[0])"

With that in mind, I never bothered to learn how to use a tool like jq, rq, jql, etc.

<comment><USER5> Another option which looks interesting: [https://github.com/jmespath/jp](https://github.com/jmespath/jp)

I haven't used it yet, but the syntax seems simpler than some.

<comment><USER6> Thanks for the link, this straightforward syntax is what I've been after for dealing with JSON on the command line.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There is more universal alternative to jq that supports also protobuf, msgpack, cbor, etc - rq[1].

[1] [https://github.com/dflemstr/rq](https://github.com/dflemstr/rq)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, didn't know about it, looks interesting!

Though from the tutorial I don't really understand how I can use it to transform data, other than converting between formats.

<comment> dan-robertson Looks like query support was dropped.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Looks cool!

I'm using [https://github.com/borkdude/babashka](https://github.com/borkdude/babashka) with with [https://github.com/borkdude/jet](https://github.com/borkdude/jet) and a few aliases along with curl for the same effect.

The syntax of jq is so hard to remember a familiar lisp always beats it :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Nice, this looks great, and I love Clojure too, so I'll make sure to check it out!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> To be frank the ascendance of jq has always seemed weird to me. There are many alternatives that felt much more natural, as this thread demonstrates.

JSONata remains pretty obscure but it's been my favorite JSON query/mangling DSL for a while now: [https://github.com/jsonata- js/jsonata](https://github.com/jsonata-js/jsonata).

jmespath is also quite natural, but I think it was hurt by reference implementation in Python, meaning it's quite slow. [http://jmespath.org/](http://jmespath.org/)

<comment><USER10> jq is simple to install, can handle large datasets (have used it to parse GB's of JSON data), and works well with bash/shell.

<comment><USER9> Yeah -- I've ended up defaulting to jq just because of its ubiquity, but many of these other tools have similar attributes without the esoteric nature of the jq DSL. It'd be great if something more natural came along and actually started to displace it.

<comment><USER10> I've never felt it was an unnatural API, but it can be hard to grok/remember. I was primarily using jq either to extract data from large JSON files or to concatenate a bunch of smaller JSON files into one, large file.

I think it can get a little weird as far as error handling goes, but I feel it's been pretty approachable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Shameless plug to my list of interesting `jq` stuff: [https://github.com/fiatjaf/awesome-jq](https://github.com/fiatjaf/awesome-jq)

It even features a complete rewrite of the actual jq in Go.

<comment><USER12> Thank you very much for shamelessly plugging your list, it's great!

I had no idea about jq-mode for Emacs, it even has org-babel support. So cool!

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> If you're into jq, here's an interface so you can have live feedback (in Emacs): [https://github.com/200ok-ch/counsel-jq](https://github.com/200ok- ch/counsel-jq)

<comment><AUTHOR> You can probably also use an analogue to:

      echo '' | fzf --print-query --preview-window wrap --preview 'cat test.json | jql {q}'

Something close to:

      echo '' | fzf --print-query --preview-window wrap --preview 'cat test.json | jq {q}'

</comment></comment><comment><USER14>
      echo '' | fzf --print-query --preview-window wrap --preview 'cat test.json | jql {q}'

Trivial note. echo instead of echo '' or echo "".

      $> [[ "$(echo)" == "$(echo '')" ]] && echo $? || echo $?
      $> 0

<comment><USER15>
      $> [[ "$(echo)" == "$(echo '')" ]] && echo $? || echo $?
      $> 0

Trivial note. `; echo $?` instead of `&& echo $? || echo $?`

      $> [[ "$(echo)" == "$(echo '')" ]]; echo $?
      $> 0

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I have used fx for a few days and enjoyed it. [https://github.com/antonmedv/fx](https://github.com/antonmedv/fx)

Highlights \- interactive mode \- Use full power of JavaScript.

$ curl ... | fx '.filter(x => x.startsWith("a"))'

\- Access all lodash (or ramda, etc) methods by using .fxrc file.

$ curl ... | fx '_.groupBy("commit.committer.name")' '_.mapValues(_.size)'

<comment><AUTHOR> I've seen fx recently and it looks very interesting. jql is obviously not as feature-rich, but you can achieve interactivity with fzf!

      echo '' | fzf --print-query --preview-window wrap --preview 'cat test.json | jql {q}'

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nice. However, a part of my problem with jq is that _changing_ data structure also gets awkward pretty quick. So I hoped to hijack some small Lisp that's still likely to have a suite of functional tools―`map` and such. This would also rely on the fact that I can represent JSON's maps and arrays in most such Lisps. Afaict jql doesn't have that.

So far I'm planning to just fire up Hy the next time I need anything in this vein. Since it's on Python, both JSON parsing/encoding and functional stuff should be there out of the box. Alternatively, I still can try using ClojureScript with Lumo. But I don't expect too fast startup with either of them, compared to, say, Fennel/Lua.

BTW, there's a Lisp that translates to Go: [https://github.com/jcla1/gisp](https://github.com/jcla1/gisp). Though not too popular, and I've heard an opinion that it's toy-like in its capabilities.

<comment><AUTHOR> Indeed, I know I didn't really solve your problem (and create your idea), as I decided to go in a different direction.

Thanks for the inspiration though!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Nice project. I'm a heavy jq user and still find myself regularly tinkering around with queries on [https://jqplay.org](https://jqplay.org). It would be nice if there were a similar page for jql, even if it is just a local server.

<comment><AUTHOR> I was thinking of an interactive terminal app, but that would be much more work.

Though you can surely put a oneliner together which achieves the same effect using fzf, as per: [https://paweldu.dev/posts/fzf-live- repl/](https://paweldu.dev/posts/fzf-live-repl/)

<comment><USER13> Here's an interactive implementation (in Emacs): [https://github.com/200ok- ch/counsel-jq](https://github.com/200ok-ch/counsel-jq)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is fairly short talk, but it might interesting to some people.

[https://youtu.be/PS_9pyIASvQ](https://youtu.be/PS_9pyIASvQ) [Serious Programming with jq?! A practical and Purely Functional Programming Language!]

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for posting! I'll make sure to watch it!

<comment><USER18> No problem. I hope it is helpful and interesting for you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If this was lispy then (elem "countries" (elem 0)

Would be an error.

Expression evaluation ought to be inside out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Why?

It is, it's just that everything returns a function! The topmost function will in the end be called with the json as an argument.

Check out these parts of the README: [https://github.com/cube2222/jql#attention](https://github.com/cube2222/jql#attention) [https://github.com/cube2222/jql#type- cheatsheet](https://github.com/cube2222/jql#type-cheatsheet)

(elem 0) returns a function which takes a JSON array as input and returns its first element.

<comment><USER19> Can you find many lisps or even any lisps that evaluate like that? A familiar syntax that actually works different from any lisp in existence may be more hindrance than help.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's first class functions. Clojure has them.

It's just that the query ends up having a type JSON -> JSON, not just JSON.

<comment><USER19> Take

       (elem "countries" (elem 0))

Inside out elem 0 has to return a function since it doesn't have enough to do anything. I'm not sure why 0 couldn't be a key necessitating a different function to differentiate but whatever.

Elem countries has to return json and one can imagine using the json in the first position like a map in clojure and taking a fn in following position. This would mean that on net it would be exactly the same as.

        (elem 0 (elem countries))

<comment><AUTHOR> It really ends up being called like this: ((elem "countries" (elem 0)) JSON)

Yours is more akin to (elem 0 (elem "countries" json))

and you can see that the hierarchy of the query is now inverted in respect to the json. This is what I like about the continuation based approach, a big query will be readable because it fits the data very well.

<comment><USER19> Is it more readable than

        (->> JSON
            (elem "countries")
            first)

<comment><AUTHOR> This looks very readable and matches the structure of the json too.

To me it's basically the same readability wise with proper indentation.

Though with deeply nested data and a lot of map functions I think you'd have a lot of unnecessary (->> JSON ...). But those can probably be eliminated with another macro.

Also, there's the pipe function in jql which basically lets you do this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm super excited to sink my teeth into this. I usually have to use jq in intense bursts and no matter what i end up back in the manual because it just get's so damn confusing.

From a quick look on the repo, this seems so much simpler. Thanks!!!

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm happy that you're so enthusiastic! Make sure to let me know what you think about it after having tried it out!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Documentation Suggestion: I'm not familiar with fzf. So having the first example the README use fzf but not subsequent examples is a little confusing. Maybe start with a couple small examples and then use fzf towards the end?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've added this after comments here asked for it, but I may move it towards a small "interactivity" chapter towards the end.

It just evaluates jql continuously while you can write and edit your query.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Good Lawd'amercy.

jq _and_ lisp?

In all seriousness, thank you for writing this. I've had trouble wrapping my small brain around some of jq's more advanced syntax, so being able to look at things from a different direction seems like a great idea to me.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

Let me know if it was understandable/confusing overall!

<comment><USER12> It was very well laid out and understandable. I found myself wishing for a parenthesis-matching capability in my zsh though! I also liked the informal/joking conversational style of the tutorial/walkthrough. It helped to put me at ease while learning something new. And having it written in Go, and with Go's simple installation method, makes me way more likely to use it in the future :) Nice job!

<comment><AUTHOR> Very glad to hear that! Feel free to open issues if you have problems or feature requests!

There's an issue for at least adding trailing and starting parentheses automatically, so I'll try to add at least the trailing ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Personally I like [https://github.com/mikefarah/yq](https://github.com/mikefarah/yq)

It also converts between yaml and json with ease for writing and reading

</comment><comment><USER23> only tangentially related, I made a VS Code extension to help out with jq development[0].

Also, jq supports modules. which is awesome!

[0][https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ldd- vs-c...](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ldd-vs-code.jq- preview)

</comment><comment> dan-robertson I tend end to struggle with this sort of lispy syntax as I use a regular shell (rather than one in emacs) which makes balancing parens hard, and the syntax is otherwise verbose. If I'm using a query tool like this it will be interactively writing a one-liner so I want syntax that's easy to get right (balancing parens by hand is hard), easy in the usual case (eg I think it should accept some way to use symbols to name fields in a record because typing and balancing double quotes all of the time is a waste of time) and easy to append to (I will run a query, press up, move to the end of the query, and modify. In this case I think moving to the end involves counting parens).

Perhaps I would want some implicit pipe or threading at the top level (which could be turned off with some option for scripts I guess).

Another helpful feature could be adding the magic closing paren: ] which will close all open parens to the top level. E.g. these two lines are equivalent:

      (foo (bar (baz) whizz))
      (foo (bar (baz) whizz]

A completely different (and less powerful) paradigm I like is one of match- format where the pattern looks a lot like what it's trying to match. In this case most functions and fancy transformations are impossible. So you could write something like this to extract the list of countries:

      j '{countries: %%}'

Or to extract each country's name:

      j '{countries: [ .*, { name: %% }, .*]}'

(Presumably you would have syntax for trying to match against each array element). (I also would make commas optional but I'm trying to make this syntax obvious).

Or to list the keys of the 0th element:

      j '{countries: [ { %%: . }, .* ]}'

Or to get name and population:

      j '{countries: [ .*, { name: %name, population: %pop }]}'

The output might look like:

      { "name": "Poland", "population": "38000000" }

————————

An alternative query tool which I haven't really seen before would be one which is interactive rather than repeatedly run: you pipe your json (or whatever) into it and it spins up some kind of (curses) gui shoeing you your data with a nice interface to interactively write your query and see its results. It could finish by outputting a command line to run the query non- interactively.

The closest thing to this I know of is a small programming by example demo that came out of Microsoft research. The goal was to figure out how to extract some desired data from some big blob of json (or maybe html, I don't remember). The user would see the json in some web gui and could click on the data they wanted and the app would try to figure out the "most obvious" query to get it. If they clicked on the country name, I think it would probably suggest a query for all the countries' names (but maybe that would be the second option). I think it would also try to be clever about grouping, so if the user picked name and population it would hopefully figure out that they should come in pairs rather than being two independent lists that might not be the same length.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks so much for so much feedback!

There's already an issue to automatically add trailing parens and I definitely think it's a good idea, as balancing parens really is annoying in-shell. I didn't think of it before.

I decided that adding interactivity would be too much work, but you could definitely put together a oneliner (or alias) which achieves that using fzf: [https://paweldu.dev/posts/fzf-live-repl/](https://paweldu.dev/posts/fzf-live- repl/)

Overall I encourage you to try write a tool that has the syntax you described, as it sounds plausible! It kinda looks a little bit like graphql, so maybe that would fit?

<comment> dan-robertson I wonder if it's worth writing some read line macros (and instructions for setting them up) for eg inserting ( ) <move-cursor-backwards>. (Bound to M-( in emacs) I think they help for simple sexp editing. I also wish I had something like "run this command but when it's done show me a prompt with the same command and my cursor in the same place" but I have no idea if it's easy

<comment><AUTHOR> I didn't know about readline macros, thanks for mentioning them.

I'll think about it.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Do users give up privacy due to lack of care or due to lack of option? - <AUTHOR> I'm trying to be more social with distant coworkers and acquaintances, so I tried installing a messaging app.
All of them (WhatsApp, Viber, Telegram, Signal) require full and unrestricted access to all my contacts to work.
Most of you already know the privacy implications this type of metadata has. I'm simply not willing to give them access, at least not on my main device.
I think a good understanding of the mentality of the crowd regarding this topic is also pretty important from a developers perspective.
So this got me wondering, don't users care at all about that stuff?
Is it because they don't understand the tradeoffs?
Is it because they understand the tradeoffs but don't care?
Or are they forced into it like I am? <comment> open-source-ux Users care, but they don't understand the myriad ways in which they can be tracked. How could they? Developers on the other hand do understand. And what do they do about it? Nothing.

Rather than ask why users don't care, why not ask: why do developers care so little for privacy?

Developers are best placed to explain and raise awareness of issues surrounding privacy and online tracking. It's this industry, after all, that built the infrastructure that enables industrial-scale tracking in the first place. Often, developers actually rush to the defence of privacy-poor corporations.

I've said it before, but when it comes to privacy and online tracking, this industry is rife with hypocrisy.

</comment><comment><USER2> It essentially boils down to convenience, or "what do I have to hide, i'm not doing anything shady". People who understand and do care will still do a cost/benefit analysis.

I mean, I just installed Telegram to talk to a girl I like. We all have to decide how strict we are going to be and how it ties in with our principles.

</comment><comment><USER3> Definitely lack of options, plus peer pressure, plus the herd mentality of thinking, "well, if everyone is doing it, it cannot be that bad, can it?".

</comment><comment><USER4> Lack of option as eventually you begin to miss out on some services that use your data. Finally had to give in as they were free and it's a small price to pay to use them.

</comment><comment><USER5> It depends. If you want to provide a transparent history of communications, slack can be an option. If you want no limitations, gitter or mattermost can work. And if you want full control, now and in the future, you host your own gitter or mattermost instance.

</comment><comment><USER6> That's why I use Apple mobile devices only -- They don't let apps demand permissions they don't need. Most people I know are the same way.</comment>


Show HN: FiftyOne – Explore, Analyze and Curate Visual Datasets - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/voxel51/fiftyone <comment><AUTHOR> Happy to answer any questions! We are just getting started.</comment>


Orbiter Space Flight Simulator 2016 Edition - <AUTHOR> http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/ <comment><USER3> This looks really awesome. Too bad it isn't open source. Would love to see it running on macOS & Linux. It would probably be a blast to port.

<comment><USER4> We Mac and Linux users play KSP instead. And then we drown our sadness by watching Scott Manley exploit glitches.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Very nice to see an update to Orbiter after a long time.

I'd really like to see it open sourced, but I guess that isn't happening. Setting it up properly is a bit of a mess right now, you need a 3rd party graphics engine called D3D9Client for that (or stick to using the old D3D7 engine). A lot of useful functionality is also 3rd party plugins you have to install from a variety of sites. You _can_ play it right out of the box, but it's much better with 3rd party additions. If it was open source, perhaps it would be a bit easier to manage.

... now to toot my own horn for a bit:

I've also been working on space simulation and orbital mechanics projects for fun (and some university classes earlier).

If there's anyone here who likes Orbiter and/or Kerbal Space Program and is interested in related programming projects, get in touch (in HN comments or IRC/freenode for my HN username).

Here's a quick screenshot of what I'm working on right now: [http://ctrlv.in/884711](http://ctrlv.in/884711) (just started doing some 3d visualization earlier this week)

And here's a two body orbital mechanics library I have been working on for a few years: [https://github.com/rikusalminen/twobody](https://github.com/rikusalminen/twobody) (it should have everything you need to write your own KSP clone - look around in the different branches)

<comment><USER6> I'm a big fan of orbiting problems. There are some cool references on your gitlab - I'll need to dig through them sometime.

Now some of my "tooting":

I did a quick JS Kepler evolver ([http://nbodyphysics.com/blog/2016/05/29/planetary-orbits- in-...](http://nbodyphysics.com/blog/2016/05/29/planetary-orbits-in- javascript/)) and some very funky regularizing integration for the three body problem ([http://nbodyphysics.com/blog/threebodyv2/](http://nbodyphysics.com/blog/threebodyv2/)).

Lots more side projects queued up - latest is a Unity Asset, Gravity Engine.

Under "hugely ambitious" is trying to grok [http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/missiondesign/KoL...](http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~marsden/volume/missiondesign/KoLoMaRo_DMissionBook_2011-04-25.pdf) and do real three-body trajectories.

<comment><USER5> Good stuff and interesting projects. I spent a while going through your blog posts and other stuff.

Do you mind if I drop you an email to exchange some ideas?

Your Kepler's equation solver looks like a pretty standard textbook Newton iteration. I'm sure you're aware of its shortcomings, look at libtwobody for a more advanced solver (Laguerre-Conway) and the bibliography for the papers describing it. There's also a universal variable solver which doesn't have issues for near-parabolic orbits and handles elliptic/parabolic/hyperbolic orbits with no special cases.

I've also got an interest in 3-body and n-body stuff but so far I've concentrated on the two body mechanics and dabbled a bit with simulating rocket launches.

Your Unity Asset looks pretty interesting. Has it been popular? I've also considered making (code) assets for Unity, so please do share any experiences you've got.

<comment><USER6> The Kepler equation solver is the standard Newton iteration, which is ok until e gets larger. The actual N-body simulator in gravity engine allows for better orbits and the integrator is configurable (Hermite, Leapfrog) and easy to extend. Colwells book has LOTS on this subject too ([https://www.willbell.com/MATH/mc12.htm](https://www.willbell.com/MATH/mc12.htm))

There are about 20 GE users so far, so it seems somewhat "niche". Offering an asset forces me to think a lot more about usability and documentation. I have recently added support for any solar system object and real world units - <USER2> tunable scaling. Not things I would have done if I was not making it an Asset. It's gratifying to get some uptake and the people who use it seem to like it.

If you like Three Body stuff, checkout my iOS/Android three body app. LOTS of solutions to explore. ([https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/threebody- lite/id951920756?m...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/threebody- lite/id951920756?mt=8/) or [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nbodyphysi...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nbodyphysics.threebodylite&hl=en))

<comment><USER5> Thanks for all the good links.

Get in touch if you want to chat about projects.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've wasted many hours on orbiter - understand that it is very much like Kerbal, only much less intuitive and forgiving, and with no training wheels. Like Kerbal, playing this legitimately helps you to understand orbital mechanics. It's fun in the same way that a flight simulator is fun, only now you're going to space instead of the sky.

<comment><USER8> Depends on your definition of forgiveness - it's true the flying part is harder in Orbiter, but last time I checked it didn't reward even most trivial mistakes with turning you into a fireball, like KSP does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Also recommended: [http://en.spaceengine.org/](http://en.spaceengine.org/) (no real flying, but plenty of pretty planets)

</comment><comment><USER10> I spent so much time on this. Learning how to use the various MFD's, trying to plot a course from Earth -> Moon -> Mars, with a slingshot around the Earth after refueling.... difficult but addictive.

Then there was the UCGO mod. Just take a look at this breathtaking video to see what that gave you: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBiX8STHUk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBiX8STHUk)

If you liked Kerbal, this is the next step up.

</comment><comment><USER11> Kerbal Space Program has forever ruined all other space simulators for me. Orbiter is great, but there's just so much more to do in KSP and you can make it as fun or as challenging as you want.

<comment><USER5> Do you use some mods for KSP? It's a great game but the physics simulation (out of the box) is rather rudimentary compared to Orbiter.

I know there's a n-body physics mod called Principia but I have not tried it, so I don't know how much it changes the gameplay.

<comment><USER4> FAR and KIDS are semi-standard for KSP realism. I don't know if they play nicely with Principia, though.</comment></comment></comment>