Ask HN: Have you ever taken (or not) a job mainly due to the company's mission? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Sure, several times. I've mostly done ops for the nonprofit sector so it's a little easier (I'm in avtech right now for rea$on$, but most of my career has been nonprofit).

Now, I live in DC so this is a lot easier for me than for people who live in other cities. But K Street and Old Town are chock full of Societies for the Advancement of Whatever, who __always __need technical work done, and there 's rarely a problem finding a "Whatever" that you believe in (or just think is cool).

A few thoughts on this:

1\. The "cool" factor should not be underestimated. One of my favorite jobs was sysadmining at Mount Vernon; it's not that I particularly believe in George Washington, but that is a mission that is undeniably "cool".

2\. You will not make remotely as much money as you will in the for-profit sector (see above), but you'll have a much better quality of life. I spent years as a sysadmin without a pager, because they really don't care if the server goes down overnight. You will also (in my experience) have a much freer hand with what you do than you do in a tech company. If their brief is lobbying for human rights, they neither know nor care what stack you use to implement their intranet.

3\. Org work has a very specific annual rhythm that you need to understand to work with. Every year there's a conference, a publication of some sort, and a membership drive; each of those is an "all-hands-on-deck" situation that lasts about a fiscal quarter (and you probably will be stuffing envelopes and manning a booth and checking people in). That leaves you one quarter per year for infrastructure work. Use it wisely.

<comment><AUTHOR> Have you found it a challenge at all (as far as getting jobs) to move between the nonprofit and private sector?

Did you start out with nonprofits or move to nonprofits later in your career?

<comment><USER2> Not really; the big barrier is between tech companies and non-tech companies. Once you leave the tech world it can be harder to get back in.

Again, as a sysadmin my experience is probably different from a developer's: every industry needs sysadmins, and in a lot of smaller places you'll literally be the only IT employee other than possibly a CIO.

<comment><USER3> What have been the biggest types of problems you have seen in these non-tech companies?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I almost signed at a software company working with interesting maintenance optimization for big machines, like trains or helicopters. Up until the final meeting with the CEO, I was promised that I could stay out of the military applications. But the CEO luckily told me that actually I could not be avoid those applications. So I politely said that I would being declining the offer and that I was disappointed that lower staffs and bosses mislead me.

</comment><comment><USER5> I once joined a successful, for-profit, private company, because I liked its mission, despite being offered lower compensation and benefits than I could have accepted elsewhere. This was very naive of me, and didn't turn out how I had hoped at all.

It turned out that the mission was more of a very well executed recruiting and sales strategy than what I felt every day at the organization. Looking back, the recruiting effort talked about their culture and values so much that I should have known they were very insecure about something. The lower compensation wasn't required by the company's financials from what I could tell, nor was it made up for by especially meaningful work. Unsurprisingly, the organizational flaws of not valuing employees and cutting corners also showed up in other ways, most painfully in the form of amazingly bad code and hostile managers. The job was unbearable for me, as well as for many others.

I think the takeaway is that honest, successful companies should be willing to fairly compensate their employees. If a company can do that but doesn't, you should reconsider working there.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes.

1\. I want to be working on helping scientists, and this influenced current job search. Beyond personal satisfaction, this also has practical benefits: all things being equal, if you're motivated by the company's mission you'll be more focused (more at [https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/08/03/stay- focused/](https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/08/03/stay-focused/)).

2\. There are jobs I simply won't take, because I think they're immoral or unethical. Other jobs I'd probably only take if I was desperate for money, since they seem pointless. (more at [https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/08/07/do-something- useful/](https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/08/07/do-something-useful/)).

That being said:

* If you're bored, you will enjoy your job less.

* If you're working crazy long hours, you're actively undermining your ability to do your job. Doesn't matter how important it is, working longer won't actually help. (more at [https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/08/18/productive-programme...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/08/18/productive-programmer/))

So basically, my take is: finding someplace that you think is worthwhile _and_ is a good work environment. Any, of course, pays you what you need. Living below your means can give you more flexibility in what jobs you need to take.

</comment><comment><USER7> Yea, I tend to avoid companies that pretend to be about something other than making money.

Its mainly for practical reasons, they tend to pay less.

<comment><USER8> They also tend to value transparency more, IMO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> In a healthy job market, it's fairly easy to go beyond just salary and duties and decide based on more esoteric reasons whether to join a company or not.

I once turned down a job that paid more than another one because they wanted me to wear a tie.

<comment><USER10> That is hilarious. Did you inform the company on why you were not joining?

<comment><USER9> No, it was an investment firm, they weren't super interested in feedback.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I joined my current employer for their mission to provide mobile phones in local languages in India. Its a real contribution that helps user on the ground, but I quit after working for them for about eight months, after I realized that not only the localization was more of a marketing point, and that no real work on localization had happened in last two years, but also that people within the company were least bothered about the end product, and more about their own responsibilities. Everyone worked in silos, and management didn't give a damn about it. I am switching sides, and going from a pure server side role to a server side cum embedded systems role to try to change something in the electricity wastage problem.

So to sum up, my current job was taken because company had a mission. I quit it because they didn't stand by that mission in their day to day working. And I joined my next company due to their mission.

</comment><comment><USER12> I have passed on many opportunities. Without a lucid mission and vision, what is the company doing? If my heart isn't in full alignment with the organization, why am I committing a large chunk of my waking life to furthering their goals? Our dance on this earth is too short to commit your health, talent, and wisdom to something you don't believe in.

Can you share the circumstance that you're mulling over? Good paycheque, ambiguous plan?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been reading this _Disrupted: My Misadventure in the Start-Up Bubble_ and it just kinda got me thinking about the topic in general.

There's no special circumstance that's prompting me to ask this question. It was something I thought about and was surprised that there were no HN discussions about it.

We see a lot of posts here about culture fit, compensation, and perks but I wonder how many people go to a company because they believe in the mission of a company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Yes. If the company has too much corporate bullshit marketing talk.

Also, I've found that the more a company talks about how great their "culture" is, the shitty it is in actual practice.

</comment><comment><USER14> Leaving my current employer and joining my next solely due to mission (plus a bit of culture). $current employer was recently acquired by a large multi- national "health/beauty eCommerce company" with an end goal to have complete domination in that sector. $next employer is focused on delivering a quality service to a specific audience (plus give back to that audience as much as possible). While it's asinine to assume that $next has no interest in expanding profit, the difference in mission and culture spawned from those missions is night and day to me. I've come to realize that if I am personally unable to reconcile a company's mission with my own interests and beliefs, I will eventually be unhappy regardless of the benefits they provide.

</comment><comment><USER15> I don't work for fossil fuel companies, or companies that do heavy business with them. Along the same lines I would love to find a job with a company in the green energy/sustainability business. Problem is that there don't seem to be a ton of options for the kind of coding I do...

</comment><comment><USER16> Yes. The one that comes to mind most prominently is Palantir.

Dodged a bullet there, considering that those options would probably be underwater.

</comment><comment><USER17> I worked as a software developer at a nonprofit for four years, mostly because of the organization's mission. It didn't pay nearly as well as the for-profit sector, but the job had quality-of-life advantages that mostly offset that.

The nonprofit sector has its share of frustrations. Nonprofits are subject to auditing requirements that restrict them from doing things that we take for granted in the for-profit sector, and fundraising campaigns were always really stressful. But, by and large, it was four years of productive, meaningful, good-quality work.

</comment><comment><USER18> Absolutely. My current position was carefully chosen (academic open source software development) for this reason. I did interview with some other companies, including ARM and Google. I could have definitely taken their offer and worked for ARM on Aarch64 toolchain stuff, which was also all open source software work. I would not have taken up a position with Google; its goals are not aligned with my own, no matter how much they might have paid.

</comment><comment><USER19> It usually doesn't get that far - I've turned down interviews at companies I wouldn't work for because of their mission (an Apple recruiter for example who contacted me through a referral from a former colleague). If I'm that opposed to a company's mission or business practices that I'd turn down a job offer I'm probably not even going to waste my time interviewing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is a company's mission a big part of what you look at when you're looking at a potential employer? Have you ever sought out a job because of the company's mission?

<comment><USER19> It's a fairly important factor, there's quite a few companies I'd be unlikely to work for due to qualms about how they operate. There's others I'd be more inclined to work for because of their mission. Ultimately the work has to be engaging though, I'm unlikely to take a job working on something that doesn't interest me just because I believe in the company's mission.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Yes! When I was interviewing at Uber in 2014, I wasn't truly interested until my interviewer mentioned that Uber reduces the drunk driving rate after it launches in a city[1].

(Later on, other studies[2] have cast doubt on the earlier findings, but from a mission perspective, I found that the employees really _care_ about the drunk driving problem, and are proud to work on a product that _can_ reduce the rate of drunk driving.)

[1]: [https://www.uber.com/blog/chicago/dui-rates-decline-in- uber-...](https://www.uber.com/blog/chicago/dui-rates-decline-in-uber-cities/)

[2]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/business/uber-drunk- drivi...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/business/uber-drunk-driving- prevention.html)

</comment><comment><USER21> You know the scene near the end of "Real Genius", when the team realizes they've been duped and Chris screams "Kent, how could you build that mirror?!"?

I ask myself that question before taking a job, so that nobody else will be able to.

</comment><comment><USER22> No but I have left a company due to the lack of vision and mission.

<comment><AUTHOR> Care to elaborate on that?

<comment><USER23> I'm not the person you're asking, but I'll throw in my two cents. If they don't have a mission, they're probably going to have trouble doing something that anyone cares about enough to pay them for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Yes, most notably to work on a microfinance platform. I believed in the social mission and the model's viability.

As for the inverse, I've avoided many large tech companies because I felt they broadly lacked a mission.

I don't regret following my proverbial heart from time to time, but I do actually regret not trying out one of the tech giants while I was still in the US - some domains and problem spaces are hard to work on elsewhere, Greater Mission (tm) or no.

</comment><comment><USER25> Yes, if you don't believe in the mission or at least think it is a good idea you aren't going to do well there as some place where you do. It's a lot easier to do that much more even in a 9-5 role when you don't have to spend effort trying to make sense of what is going on. It's the same as on the other side of the hiring equation saying someone is a 'bad fit' for the work you had planned for them.

</comment><comment><USER26> I avoid feeling like a middle man. I want to provide services to people. I turn down stupid startup ideas every day.

</comment><comment><USER27> I have quit a job mostly because of the unofficial but clearly visible mission change.

So far I haven't taken a job because of a specific mission (I'm happy as long there actually is one beyond a sales pitch), but denied or ignored offers from companies where I would have moral problems with what their doing.

</comment><comment><USER28> I left a job due to it's mission. I worked for a (very, very large) adtech exchange. Their motto was "we keep the internet free." I couldn't reconcile the fact that 80% of engineers used ad blocker while working on the technology it fought against.

<comment><USER29> Free as in beer, but not free as in free from annoying ads!

<comment><USER28> The former!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I've done (and will continue to do) volunteer work on the side. That's often a part-time job (20 hrs/wk) taken entirely due to the mission of the organization.

<comment><AUTHOR> Willing to share any of the organizations you've enjoyed volunteering for?

<comment><USER30> Freeflight, an exotic bird sanctuary in San Diego. I like birds, they can be very friendly animals.

The Los Angeles Maritime Institute. I'm a member of the International Guild of Knot Tyers, I like knots and ropework, so helping out with the maintenance of the tall ships was a great experience.

That brings up an added benefit of volunteer work: it doesn't need to have any relation to your day job.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Nope. It's like VC's... They always bet on a team rather than an idea. With great people, you usually do great things.

</comment><comment><USER32> Maybe not 100% but it did influence the decision on working for an open source company.</comment>


Ask HN: the most amazing python script you ever wrote ? - <AUTHOR>

As I learn python, i wonder what was the most funny/amazing python script you wrote during your work/education ? and how it helped. Maybe I could also do them as an exercise to build up some python skills as i experiment more and more to learn it. <comment><USER2> I wrote a websnapr equivalent one time. I needed thumbnails of every website on the internet and favicons wouldn't do.

So my script:

1\. connected to a database and found a list of sites it needed images of

2\. checked the image table to make sure there was a recent (< 1 day) snapshot

3\. if there was not, it would start X, take a screenshot

4\. use photologue to compress it on-the-fly

5\. save the picture

it was less than 200 lines, but it worked really well. that's still my pride and joy.

<comment><AUTHOR> wow that sounds great :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Here's a terrible brainfuck interpreter: <http://python.pastebin.com/f3d434dd2>

I wrote it as an exercise in functional style, and so it has no mutation (other than the tuple assignment in the main loop, which I couldn't devise a functional equivalent for). It is incredibly inefficient as a result. But it all fits in a single Python statement, save initialization!

</comment><comment><USER4> A few months ago I wrote a python script that built relation data from a database using only primary key data (all the PKs were GUIDs) to build a mapping of the actual relations from the database. This particular application had grown quite large and no relationships were ever really documented.

Then once the relationships were all mapped out, I wrote another Python script to shell out C# classes for all of the tables and their relations so that I had an easy way (data library + basic web forms) to explore the data.

All said and done I think it was a shade under a thousand lines and saved me weeks of exploration and hand coding.

</comment><comment><USER5> I wrote a genetic programming system in python. <http://paraschopra.com/sourcecode/GP/GP.zip>

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't know about the most amazing, but I am constantly impressed by how much work you can get done in so little Python. Last script I wrote 1) parses its command line 2) tries a list of servers to find the logfile it needs 3) retrieves and parses that logfile 4) fits a trigonometric polynomial using Fourier series 5) draws the original data plus the curve fit on a graph and saves that on a web server.

90 lines of code.

</comment><comment><USER7> I've written a lot, but none I'd characterize as funny or amazing. I've enjoyed most writing the wrapper classes for embedding Python in Counter- Strike: Source, but there's nothing amazing there.

If you want to cut your teeth on some fun little challenges, you might try codegolf: <http://codegolf.com/competition/browse>

<comment><AUTHOR> yepp! how could i forget codegolf :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> <http://paste.pocoo.org/show/91848/></comment>


Nobel Prize Winner William Nordhaus vs. the IPCC on Climate Change - <AUTHOR> https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2018/MurphyNordhaus.html <comment><USER2> The author is using the term "present-discounted value" to describe the deaths of millions of people and the extinction of a major portion of the species of the earths.

You may have to put a dollar value on that sort of stuff to do economic calculations, but you have to recognize that's what you're doing.

</comment><comment><USER3> This looks like an attempt to hijack the cred of a Nobel prize winner for the benefit of pushing the agenda of one "Free Market Institute" based at Texas Tech, in Lubbock Texas, the heart of Texas oil country. I would take everything in this article with a large grain of salt. Especially the characterization of positive steps toward addressing climate change as "mitigations" \-- one person's mitigation is another person's highly sustainable renewable energy source that will create jobs at time of sale and installation, and pay dividends for decades to come.

<comment><AUTHOR> Read the article (or don't) and assail its contents (or don't). Ad hominem is fundamentally unproductive.

<comment><USER4> I don't think pointing out the biased nature of the source is an ad-hominem. It's pretty standard critical analysis.

<comment><USER5> That's literally what ad hominem means...

<comment><USER6> This is false.

Ad hominem refers to dismissing an argument out of hand based on the source. In this case, people are willing to engage with the argument, but are additionally pointing out the bias inherent in the source. This is not ad hominem, just a bias warning.

<comment><USER7> I don't think ad hominem is necessarily dismissing an argument out of hand - it's ignoring the content of an argument in favor of countering the speaker.

Ad hominem isn't always irrelevant, but questioning a source's motivation instead of responding to the arguments they make seems to be ad hominem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Truly the dismal science.

How do you put a dollar cost on mass-extinction? It's ludicrous to even try.

</comment><comment><USER9> If money matters more than lives (even if it's your own or a lot of people you might care enough), then he might be right.

If it doesn't, then he is wrong. Never cross a river that in average is 4 feet deep, nor suppose that an increase of the global yearly average of temperature of 2 degrees excludes the possibility of 55-60 ºC on very populated cities on some particular day in a near future. That probably will kill a lot of people, and cause a lot of health troubles to a lot more. And to make it worse, it won't be an isolated event, it will keep happening and getting worse, and not affecting just people.

If you see what he proposes as "it will be less expensive to kill a lot of people", he might be technically right. And very wrong.

</comment><comment><USER10> Basically he says Carbon is contributing to GHG and climate change but claims that managing a 1.5C is more expensive than "going green".

That is it would be long term cheaper to adapt to climate change than to reverse it (with the proviso that we tax the externalities of carbon.)

It's an interesting proposition and perhaps it does have economic merit. Of course many people will dismiss it out of hand because it questions our present assumptions.

</comment><comment><USER11> "According to its last update, published in early 2017, the Obama EPA reported that the SCC in 2030, using the standard 3% discount rate, would be $50 per ton."

Does anybody know the context in which 3% is considered the "standard" discount rate? The choice of a specific discount rate reflects/implies a philosophical stance about the value of stuff in the future. I'm interested in how 3% is the value we've converged on.

</comment><comment><USER12> William Nordhaus and his cost estimates are themselves controversial and by no means some kind of standard in the field of climate mitigation economics. For people who paid attention, this was brought up when he won his prize. [1]

I dare say the IPCC knows better than both Econlib and Nordhaus. There isn't much of an analysis here. They ignore the most obvious huge cost: the risk of reaching the tipping-point after which global warming would be unstoppable. They ignore the positive externalities of climate action, which are plenty in themselves. They ignore the fact that it is not possible to not act now and then suddenly put on the brakes on warming when we reach whatever target they deem appropriate.

1\. [https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/06/the-nobel-prize-for- cli...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/06/the-nobel-prize-for-climate- catastrophe/)

<comment><USER13> The strange thing is that if there is such positive externalities for climate policies why don't rich countries that can afford to pay more for energy be more aggresive in reducing emissions? Even Germany, for instance, isn't spending as much as it could to reduce emissions. If reducing emissions are so important why aren't German business forced to purchase electricity at the market rate(with renewable subsidies builtin) the same way consumers are?

Complaining about growth in rich countries basically misses the mark. It isn't rich countries that are driving greenhouse emissions but developing countries that can't afford renewable energy wihtout cutting investment and thus growth. Less growth means that people in the present will be worse off as well and they have less resources to ameliorate the social consequences of a stagnant economy.

Of course, rich countries that cut growth will be less rich. That means all else being equal workers will be paid less(because they live in a less wealthy economy) and the lack of growth will cause similar (if more manageable) social impacts as in developing economies. Saying that you could still be 'happy' living in such a country misses the point entirely. You would never rationally believe such an outcome of being economically poorer shouldn't be avoided if at all possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> It sounds a lot less important that he's a Nobel laureate when you realize he got the prize in economics and econlib is libertarian drivel.

</comment><comment><USER15> Having won the Nobel Prize doesn't necessarily mean someone holds reasonable views in fields outside their immediate speciality.

1993 chemistry prize winner Kary Mullis supported AIDS denialists and expressed an interest in astrology: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Personal_views](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Personal_views)

<comment><USER7> He won the Nobel Prize for his work in this specific sub-specialty. It's not outside his field.</comment></comment>


6 ways climate change and disease helped topple the Roman Empire - <AUTHOR> https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/10/30/16568716/six-ways-climate-change-disease-toppled-roman-empire <comment><USER2> The photo caption misspells _Yersinia_.</comment>


No, this isn't the start of the antibiotic apocalypse, just bad reporting - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/everybody-be-cool-a-nightmare-superbug-has-not-heralded-the-apocalypse-yet/ <comment><USER2> To my knowledge, antibiotics inhibit crutial bacterial functions such as protein synthesis in bacterial ribosomes which causes cell death. To survive, the cell mutates its ribosomes which costs energy and makes them less efficient but functional again. If you are lucky, the bacteria need a long time before finding an efficient mutation. A combination of multiple such attack vectors can further decrease the efficiency at which the bacteria operate, giving your body an advantage. However, finding new attack vectors (which don't interact with human cells) takes on the order of ten years. So resistance is still a big Problem.

</comment><comment><USER3> I wonder what happened to the infected patient.</comment>


Rooted Tesla Model 3 Running Ubuntu and YouTube - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/a1fln4/rooted_tesla_model_3_running_ubuntu_and_youtube/ <comment><USER2> I mean on the model S they had a tegra GPU, you could probably game on it if you wanted.

Link to the IHS teardown of the model S:[https://technology.ihs.com/FreeApi/api/binary/510403](https://technology.ihs.com/FreeApi/api/binary/510403)

</comment><comment><USER3> Could doing this make the car uninsurable?

</comment><comment> java-man Interviewed for a member of security team at Tesla. Told them one have to be paranoid of every line of code in the vehicle, run one-directional (serial) link between entertainment and drivetrain systems.

Did not get the job.

<comment><USER4> Do you know why you didn't get the job?

<comment> java-man I am sure there were better candidates around.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is very cool. I'm curious to see how this affects the actual use of the vehicle. Don't Tesla's get OTA updates?

<comment><USER4> Yes, they do.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What are good hosting providers? - <AUTHOR> I am launching a small business. I do not have much budget. I cannot spend more than $5 per month.
I am going to host my web app on digitalocean. Is digitalocean right choice?
What is your experience with hosting providers?
Who is the best for low budget? <comment><USER2> It depends on your needs really. DO is fine for low budget projects. Just below them I would suggest Vultr. If you don't care about API's and that sort of thing, then Ramnode is even cheaper, but I've had issues with the user interface.

There are a bunch of aggregator sites that compare vps providers. Here are two of them. [1] [2] [3]

Disclaimer: These sites can be a bit spammy. Use NoScript / uBlock. Also, you really do get what you pay for, so as your business grows, you may wish to consider diversifying across providers.

[1] - [https://lowendbox.com/](https://lowendbox.com/)

[2] - [https://vpscomp.com/servers](https://vpscomp.com/servers)

[3] - [https://www.serverhunter.com](https://www.serverhunter.com) as mentioned by IronBacon, I totally forgot about this one.

<comment><USER3> Ramnode also has at times outright hostile customer support and a blatant disregard for customer privacy. Strongly advise against them.

<comment><USER2> They are for sure the bottom of the barrel. I threw that one in there because they have dirt cheap options.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> What framework/programming language are you planning to use?

If you want super cheap, nothing will beat shared hosting. In most cases, you will have to write your coded in PHP and MySQL. You can get spaces really cheap hosting like 12 USD per year.

For any other framework, you have to use a VPS. Even in VPS there are two types - KVM based and LXC based. KVM based systems support docker but will be expensive. LXC based systems will be much cheaper but can run most frameworks.

</comment><comment><USER5> I can personally recommend Vultr, Linode, and DO for reliable VPS services.

All of them have pretty competitive offerings, great support, and are just generally on top of things. You won't regret any of those hosts.

The problem with the hosts on lowendbox.com and the like is that they will very likely work, but they don't have the history for me to trust business critical tasks. Many are just resellers offering over-allocated machines.

</comment><comment><USER6> I've been very happy with DigitalOcean but be aware that $5 is not going to get you very much. If it's a small web app or static site then the $5/mo droplet will be fine but plan to be spending more like $15 or $20/mo very soon.

Edit: If price is your biggest concern then maybe look at Vultr ([https://www.vultr.com/products/cloud- compute/#pricing](https://www.vultr.com/products/cloud-compute/#pricing)) to get you started for less $.

<comment><USER7> I've also been quite happy with DigitalOcean for the last 2 years. Pricing is good, and I've had 0 downtime.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> You didn't mention the type of business, so I'll throw out a question: do you need a VPS host? Is Wordpress hosting enough? Static site hosting? You said web app, but I just want to double check.

If you have to have a VPS where you get a bare OS and need to install your custom web app, there are some great suggestions already in here. I personally use DigitalOcean because my company's budget is super small as well.

If you just need a business _website_ , there are cheaper options than DigitalOcean or Vultr.

</comment><comment><USER9> I am using Vultr. They have very cheap VPS options and they have many different OS images i.e. I am running a CentOS and a OpenBSD instances.

<comment><USER10> The cheapest VPS on Vultr doesn't provided IPv6. Does it mean people from IPv4 wont be able to access website hosted on that VPS? Is there a way around this issue?

<comment><USER11> If you're talking about the $2.50 VPS, yes, that's IPV6-only, so it doesn't support IPV4. You're correct that people who only use IPV4 won't be able to access that VPS, at least not without jumping through hoops. There's also a $3.50 VPS instance with the same spec that appears to support both IPV4 & IPV6.

I've been using Vultr for a while and am quite happy with them. I've also used a couple of the IPV6-only VPSs for experiments, but I have IPV4 & IPV6 connectivity at home.

<comment><USER10> Thank you. I did not know that. It is only available from their NY location. One has to click though all server locations to find the best deal for the need.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> If you are targeting Europe, you could give Hetzner a shot. Starting at 2,50€/Month with 2GB RAM, 20GB NVMe and 1 CPU Core.

As of my knowledge, the ping isn´t that bad in the US neither.

</comment><comment><USER13> Whenever I need a managed hosting provider (admittedly pretty rare, I run most of my personal stuff off a Digital Ocean VPS, but I'm also very comfortable with linux/ops/security and don't mind managing these things myself), I always head to [https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/](https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/) \- these days they support a pretty varied collection of languages/frameworks, and they have a good combo of extremely transparent pricing, solid reliability, nice security features, and seemingly strong technical background.

<comment><USER14> I've had good experiences with them as well.

</comment></comment><comment> dfeojm-zlib I have used these in production:

0\. [https://www.bytemark.co.uk/prices/#cloud- prices](https://www.bytemark.co.uk/prices/#cloud-prices)

1\. [https://www.pair.com/solutions/shared/](https://www.pair.com/solutions/shared/) (FreeBSD-based)

2\. [https://www.linode.com/pricing](https://www.linode.com/pricing)

3\. [https://aws.amazon.com/free](https://aws.amazon.com/free) (Free Tier is awesome, for a little while)

Others I would evaluate:

4\. [https://www.digitalocean.com](https://www.digitalocean.com)

5\. [https://www.orangewebsite.com](https://www.orangewebsite.com) (Iceland- based)

6\. [https://www.bahnhof.net](https://www.bahnhof.net) (Sweden-based)

7\. [https://tranquillity.se](https://tranquillity.se) (Sweden-based, green- powered and straightforward billing)

8\. [https://advania.com](https://advania.com) (Sweden-, Iceland-, Norway- and Finland-based)

</comment><comment><USER15> Is it for a website or webapp?

If it is just a website, I highly recommend Netlify. It does static site hosting for dirt cheap.

If you need a webapp, I would agree with many other posters and say DO. They are the biggest of the "small" cloud providers, DO, Vultr, Linode. They have a wide range of options if you ever need to expand. I can't speak on their customer support because I have never had to use them.

</comment><comment><USER16> I don't see anyone mentioning AWS Lightsail.

[https://aws.amazon.com/lightsail/pricing/](https://aws.amazon.com/lightsail/pricing/)

I use it and it seems to be pretty great. I also like that it brings you into the AWS ecosystem at a low price, so if you need to scale or you want to make a bigger application, AWS is right there to hook into. Furthermore it's a really simple UI and not as overwhelming as the normal AWS web console.

<comment><USER17> I have also had good experiences with Lightsail. We use the Tokyo node for an app targeting China. And unlike the Amazon free tier (older Red Hat) you get a choice of modern distributions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Linode is great for cheap VPS. Most people here use DigitalOcean, but I did the comparison and liked Linode. Management console is pretty good (though I haven't tried their new one). The one serious benefit over DO is faster transfer (40gbps down/1 up). Not huge, but that's why I picked it.

I like the look of vultr, and have considered it, but their plans are functionally identical these days and I probably won't bother switching.

</comment><comment><USER19> AWS and GCP have free tier options that you can benefit from. Having either as part of your skillset is good for a career in technology, so bonus points there.

</comment><comment><USER20> I moved from DO to Scaleway a few years ago and I am super satisfied. Never had any problems whatsoever and I haven't found a cheaper hosting. Their console is easy to use and their offering is generally pretty good. Highly recommended.

I spend $3.33 (2.99€) and host a few apps. None big but they all run smooth as butter. It's amazing how much you can actually host on this little machines.

<comment><USER21> Worth pointing out that Scaleway only has servers in Europe. Paris and Amsterdam to be specific.

I'm American, but I've been using Scaleway for a few months, and latency aside, I've had zero problems as well and they're one of the only hosting providers I'm aware of that has ARM64 based VPS. Amazon recently announced ARM EC2 instances, but even their cheapest offering is weaker and significantly more expensive than Scaleways.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> You can't go wrong with DO for $5/mo.

</comment><comment><USER23> I've had excellent experience on DO for over 4 years now. Almost 0 downtime. DO is awesome!

Here are some that are not so great: ServerPronto

Here is one that nearly ruined my entire business: Rimuhosting (there was an actual hardware issue with the VPS and every 5 requests, the server would go down and they couldn't fix it, it was really awful.)

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm surprised nobody mentioned joshtronic's VPS showdown:

[https://joshtronic.com/2019/07/01/vps-showdown- digitalocean-...](https://joshtronic.com/2019/07/01/vps-showdown-digitalocean- lightsail-linode-upcloud-vultr/)

<comment><USER25> Thanks, this was a great writeup with lots of benchmarks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I haven't seen any plugs yet for AWS Lighthouse. It's in a dedicated UI, so it's not as overwhelming as AWS. You don't need Ground Control satellite services to run a website.

Lighthouse starts at $5/Mo and comes with great docs and lots of templates. It's pretty comparable to a Digital Ocean droplet.

<comment><USER27> I think you meant Lightsail not Lighthouse correct?

<comment><USER26> Oops, correct. Its too late to edit :/

<comment><USER27> Oh whale. It's actually a fantastic suggestion. I think I'm actually going to use it based on the pricing and offering. Thanks for bringing it up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Linode is good.

DigitalOcean is fine, too. I find some of their distro tooling to have annoying and longstanding bugs that never get fixed, though. I eventually moved all my servers back to Linode to avoid the small pointless hassles.

They're all probably more or less equal.

</comment><comment><USER29> I suggest you spend some time reading the following thread before making a decision about Digital Ocean:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20064169](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20064169)

</comment><comment><USER30> Been on Linode for about 6 years with nearly 0 downtime across 5 servers. Absolutely no complaints.

They did get hit with a nasty DDoS attack a couple years back which did suck for me, but it was short lived and I think it taught but them and me a lot..

</comment><comment><USER31> If you're willing to learn - consider a google cloud VM.

It allows you to run a VM 24/7 for free indefinitely. Obvious not the most powerful machine but you can host a couple low activity sites on it no sweat.

>Is digitalocean right choice?

It's a good choice.

</comment><comment><USER32> Anyone here used WPEngine for Wordpress hosting? [https://wpengine.com](https://wpengine.com)

<comment><USER33> I've moved many people to it and more people away from it. It isn't worth the cost for most people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I like scaleway! Small, cheap, on baremetal.

</comment><comment><USER35> Vultr is excellent. Especially for customized Linux distros and unique options like OpenBSD. As well as Linode.

</comment><comment><USER36> Between Lightsail, Hetzner, Vultr and OVH - which one is better in Europe?

<comment><USER12> Hetzner and OVH should be the Same from a Network Point.

Personally I like Hetzner the most. They are dirty cheap and have a good support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> If you are willing to do the heavy lifting on the backend, nothing beats nearlyfreespeech

</comment><comment><USER38> mddhosting.com</comment>


CodeSounding: computer generated music sounds from a source code structure - <AUTHOR> http://www.codesounding.org/indexeng.html

<comment><USER2> Here is a music generator based off SQL code.

[http://www.ispysql.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload...](http://www.ispysql.com/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=section&id=6:tsql- music-generator&Itemid=6)</comment>


Craig Walker's Firespotter Labs launches Nosh, a new way to rate and share food. - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/07/14/firespotter-labs-launches-nosh-a-food-centric-instagram-thatll-tell-you-what-to-order/

<comment><USER2> The app looks pretty polished

</comment><comment><USER3> such an awesome app!</comment>


Ask HN: What apps/services/software do you miss from your home country? - <AUTHOR> If you've lived outside the US, what app, software or service did you use in that country that doesn't exist in the US?<p>And, if you lived in the US but now live elsewhere, same question. <comment><USER2> Socialized medicine is a government service, I guess. I miss that.

</comment><comment><USER3> Banking. In the EU I can just ask someone for her account number, input that in my bank account app, and the money would be in her account in an instant. Same with for example cash register payments. They would show in my banking app immediately, even if I was in another country. Also online banking apps are much simpler. Just account, payment, date, description and a contact list.

</comment><comment><USER4> Chase bank app: Take a picture of a cheque received and the money is credited to your account instantly.

</comment><comment><USER5> The food, it's always the food :-)</comment>


Ask HN: How to self-learn web development? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I really like the EDX Harvard CS50 course. It takes someone from near-zero computer knowledge up through algorithms, C-weirdness, through basic web- application development.

16ish weeks of content (It's an actual college class) but completely free. It has a high production value and tons of support/ease of use too, with it's own custom in-browser IDE.

[https://cs50.harvard.edu/](https://cs50.harvard.edu/)

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16438615](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16438615) and in general the HN search [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=ask%20learn%20web%20developmen...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=ask%20learn%20web%20development&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=pastYear&type=story)

</comment><comment><USER4> Finding resources is as simple as searching "learn HTML" or "learn JavaScript"

YouTube, online tutorials, local meetups, and just trying to code projects on your own. The cool thing about web development is that if you have a computer with internet connection then it's free to do.

Just start doing it.

</comment><comment><USER5> @vrk's Web Programming Fundamentals course is a good start

[http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs193x/](http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs193x/)</comment>


Show HN: Announcing Codenvy Factory - tyler-codenvy http://blog.codenvy.com/announcing-codenvy-factory-instant-demand-ide/

<comment><AUTHOR> what the heck is cod envy?

<comment> tyler-codenvy Codenvy is a cloud IDE. We let you code, build, test, deploy and share all in the cloud. We use Factories to create on-demand, customizable workspaces for project types. We have solutions for developers, teams, enterprises, ISVs, and publishers. www.codenvy.com.</comment></comment>


What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn't (2010) - <AUTHOR> http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-and-isnt/ <comment> loup-vaillant Looks like a good article overall. I have just one qualm:

> _The plural of anecdote is not data._

Ah, but it _is_. It's biased, hard to analyse, fraught with many perils… but it is still relevant information. Even though anecdotes are rarely conclusive, They can often tell you where you should look next.

This is similar to the correlation/causation thing. Sure, correlation doesn't _imply_ causation. But it sure makes it much more _probable_.

<comment><USER2> Ah, but it often belies and smooths over the important distinguishing factor of data: _statistical significance._

Simply having "plural" is not enough. You need a well-designed experiment, with well-controlled variables, good methods and measurements, good consistent recording, and enough points of that nature to show significance. And all that without natural biases, such as the confirmation bias so common with anecdotes. You can have as many self-reported stories from a self-selecting population as you like and it still won't be good data, due to the inherent bias in the method.

It's difficult to recognize these biases, which is why we say "the plural of anecdote is not data." Not because some data isn't a series of anecdotal points, but because good data is often so much more, and it's important to respect that. Sure, use it to guide your instincts, but don't mistake it for rigorous science.

<comment><USER3> You're making a lot of assumptions, though. You're assuming self-selection, and you're assuming what kinds of situations the data is being used. The plural of anecdote isn't data, but a group of anecdotes isn't inherently not data.

Further, a collection of many anecdotes is not necessarily great data, but the quality of data can be taken into account when making assertions about it, and you can attach confidence ratings to assertions made based on data with known faults.

The problem here is that "the plural of anecdote isn't data" is just a short, snappy thing to say, that doesn't capture any of the nuances of what data is and how it's used. A lot of times it's used to express a legitimate point, but I think we could express that point more accurately by actually talking about what data is instead of oversimplifying the concern.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The Dunning-Kruger effect effect: The perceived ability in people who have heard about the Dunning-Kruger effect to judge other people's abilities by observing their self-assessments.

<comment><USER5> I always find ironically amusing people without a psychology degree invoking Dunning-Kruger to explain things

<comment><USER6> I find psychology degrees ironically amusing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I thought I was experiencing the Dunning-Kruger effect, but it turns out I am just an idiot.

<comment><USER8> I often wonder if I'm idiot too or experiencing the DK effect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Discussed at the time: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1498136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1498136).

</comment><comment><USER10> No one will read this, but ... this reinforces what I think is the singularly most powerful skill for creating a bootstrapped mind is metacognition. Without it, one cannot create the feedback loop for self improvement. The self taught learners who haven't gone off the rails, have for the most part a highly tuned ability to know _why_ they know what they know. Teaching a child how to learn is teaching them metacognition.

<comment><USER11> I was tested for learning disabilities around the 2nd grade. At the end of the process they offered to let me skip the 3rd grade (I declined, but I only recently came to regret my decision).

I don't recall if I figured this out on my own or someone trained me but I do know this was about the time I started a process of metacognition, wherein my internal dialog became a deliberate process of repackaging the things the teacher was saying into something that made sense to me. Instead of trying to cram their mental model into my head, I would build my own hypotheses and test them against all the examples that were provided, then abandon them for a new one if they didn't fit. [Edit] And when I got the answer wrong I would halt the presses and try to figure out why I was wrong. I used to joke that if I wanted to remember something forever all I had to do was get it wrong on a quiz and it would stick in my brain for eternity.

Prior to that I assumed if the teacher said something that didn't make sense that I was stupid. After I assumed that the teacher was just speaking a foreign language and I needed an internal translator. I went from almost held back to honor roll in the space of about a year.

(this trick, incidentally, made me an exceedingly good troubleshooter in my professional life, and "If you can't figure it out go ask hinkley" is common strategy almost everywhere I've worked. Not only can I probably solve your problem but the mental tax is lower on my than it was on you, because it is my idiom to process facts this way. I am literally always thinking about thinking).

<comment><USER10> Yes! Metacognition is the core of cognition. We need to teach more people this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> For me, the assessment of Dunning-Kruger is missing a key control group, people who don't claim any aptitude in the relevant skill. For a newbie, that's the class of people who they are most likely to compare themselves to, e.g. the typical small office's Excel guru knows a few `@` commands not pivot tables and linear regression and it's computer whiz has a general picture of directories as a tree structure and can use `cd` and `dir` and `*.bak` to find lost files.

To put it another way, the less skilled practitioner is comparing what they know today versus ignorance. An experienced practitioner has been around long enough to have experienced tough problems that highlight the limits of their knowledge. In other words, one group is likely to compare themselves to an unskilled cohort and the other to a highly skilled one.

Excluding people who rate their ability at zero and who perform consistent with that ability skews the graph.

</comment><comment><USER13> tl;dr

"So the bias is definitively not that incompetent people think they're better than competent people. Rather, it's that incompetent people think they're much better than they actually are. But they typically still don't think they're quite as good as people who, you know, actually are good."

and graphic:

[http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/wp- content/uploads/2010/07/du...](http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/wp- content/uploads/2010/07/dunning_kruger.png)

</comment><comment><USER14> I remember reading an interview with either Dunning or Kruger at one point. They were really disappointed that everyone had used their research to point fingers at others.

In actual fact, the authors had hoped the real value of their research would be in getting people to question themselves.

I.e. Instead of saying: "look at that dumb person, he doesn't know he's dumb."

The authors hoped people would say: "what if I'm not as smart as I think I am?"

I guess the "other people are dumb" meme is so much more comforting, though.

<comment><USER11> It's like the old trope, where someone confides in a friend that they are worried that they are going crazy, and the friend tells them not to worry. People who are crazy don't bother to ask if they're crazy.

Self inquiry is, IMO, a cornerstone of self regulation. If you're asking questions you're already well on your way. If you're not you won't notice that self-help articles even apply to you. (In fact I think of most self-help advice is, at best, milestones that you can't recognize until you've gone past them. It can tell you how far you've gone and when you've made a wrong turn, but it doesn't actively help you get where you're going. It's all up to you).

<comment><USER15> > People who are crazy don't bother to ask if they're crazy.

Is that commonly true or ~always true?</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Here is a freeware IDE I developed and abandoned ten years ago - <AUTHOR> http://www.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/Smart-Editor-Professional-Screenshot-13769.html

<comment><AUTHOR> And when I look back, I feel I should've made it OSS. The source was in a crashed hdd that I abandoned, and it was developed in VB and VC.</comment>


The Deepwater Horizon accident, predicted in 1984 - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2010/06/10/the-deepwater-horizon-accident-predicted-in-1984/ <comment><USER2> Pretty good intro to the concept and importance of knowing what a Normal Accident is. I think we all, messing with computers, have had these at one point or another.</comment>


Ask HN: What should Microsoft do to show they are serious about open source? - <AUTHOR> Without open sourcing Windows and Office?<p>Let's not forget that GitHub wasn't open source either <comment><USER2> They could do things like create an open source programmer's editor, buy Xamarin, release an open source version of their compilers and CLR, and contribute millions of lines of code annually to major open source projects. Oh, and they could buy some kind of dominant website most famous for hosting open source projects.

</comment><comment><USER3> > Without open sourcing Windows and Office?

One _can_ be serious about an approach without total commitment, but total commitment is the path that removes the most doubt.

From another angle: MS' current use of open source seems motivated by the desire to appeal to developers. They can be entirely serious about that as a strategy. However, that's distinct from embracing open source because they believe in that methodology. Is new stuff from MS developed in the open from the start, by default? Until that happens, they're just playing with the toys, not committing to the cause.

</comment><comment><USER4> how about open sourcing direct X? itd be a nice way to show theyre willing without letting windows or office sources into the wild

</comment><comment><USER5> They could replace NTOSKRNL.EXE with vmlinuz.</comment>


Give Me Something To Read - <AUTHOR> http://givemesomethingtoread.com/ <comment><USER2> I use instapaper. I think its a pretty neat idea. Simple interface, great execution, now with a pseudo-social angle. Though I am not sure what this buys me over delicious</comment>


I'm Done with Macbooks - <AUTHOR> http://www.subtraction.com/2016/02/05/im-done-with-macbooks/ <comment><USER3> Am I missing something or is the writing on why OS X doesn't lend itself well to a laptop missing?

I see him complain about form factor, ok sure, it's not an iPad but it does way more than an iPad... I'm failing to see real criticism of WHY OS X is so bad on a laptop vs desktop...

<comment><USER4> Yeah, it's just "my tablet is easier to use than a laptop" despite "I can't use my ipad for X"

Well, I can't ride my horse in bed either so I have to make do with a picture. But I can't ride pictures so I have to go to the stable. FML

<comment><USER5> My motorcycle is way faster than my car, but it's snowing out so I can't ride my motorcycle. I'm just done with my car.

This guy must be FASCINATING at parties. Holy cow what a privileged existence. If this is seriously the biggest beef on his trip I'll trade problems with him any day of the week.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I sort-of agree with the author. I have an iPad mini 4 and an iPad Pro, and because of the form factor I try to do as much as possible on an iPad, even SSHing to servers to do bits of work, stuff that would be better with a real keyboard. If I do use a laptop it is usually at my desk with a humongous screen when I am programming.

Then there is stuff for which an iPad is better: learning Haskell using the Haskell App with any Kindle Haskell book open (comfortable reading and it takes only a second to try a code snippet or exercise in the App; doing research with notes going to Keep; some writing (where I spend much more time thinking than typing).

I feel like I am going against the trend of doing everything on a smartphone or a laptop. When I travel, just taking the iPad mini 4 is perfect (again, if I need to, I can code SSHing to a server).

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't get why this article is interesting.

</comment><comment><USER8> I assigned my F-keys to control multiple desktops (F1 - show all windows, F2 - show windows of current app, F3/F4 - switch to left/right desktop, F5 - <USER2> desktop), that made OS X much more pleasant to use for me.

OS X took some time getting used to - I'm still not sure what the green not- really-maximize button is supposed to do, but I've gotten used to it.

I don't really get what this person does with his MacBook or iPad, and what exactly makes one better than the other. I use OS X on a laptop - but it's a big ThinkPad T420 (Works surprisingly great! Got a lot of slots for storage, and can't get enough of that keyboard and TrackPoint), so it's not quite portable, so I end up carrying my Surface Pro 3 around instead - which I mostly use as a laptop, and have configured to have the same shortcuts. Maybe if there was a new version of the ThinkPad X300 with modern guts (and good OS X compatibility), I could ditch the Surface.

</comment><comment><USER9> Or a less misleading title: I'm Done with Laptops (Only iPads)

<comment><USER10> Accurate title, and it's funny.

I'm Done with the iPhone (Only iPhone+).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Hmm, not sure I get the article. I recently ditched OsX on an iMac and in the past I used Solaris on an apple laptop. In general, I would say that while not cheap for a general intel machine, the core hardware is pretty good and Apple's lack of interest in making a lot of drivers should make them an easy platform for other OSes to prioritize.

The results on linux have remained a little less than ideal. It is a shame to see that graphics card makers still think they can afford to bully us around and I still don't get what apple is thinking with wireless HID. Do a lot of users type from 50 meters away?

<comment><USER12> No, wireless HIDs are for making it easier to take your laptop with you, without unplugging all your USB cables. Plus, it saves ports when Apple is transitioning to portless and fanless.

<comment><USER11> True, but I was actually referring to them coming as the only interfaces to the iMac. AFAIK the laptops provide builtin HID, so they don't needlessly become a brick from depending on independent battery backed HID devices.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I was expecting some complaint about Apple's direction with OS X or something. This looks more like a generic complaint about laptops, and not MacBooks specifically.

</comment><comment><USER14> Interesting. I want a phone that basically turns into a full desktop when you plug it into a docking station. It wouldn't work for it to be iOS, though. It's got to have an accessible file system and a way to install (or even build) 3rd party software without going through Apple.

<comment><USER15> Nokia N900? Underpowered, but you can run Debian in a chroot.

<comment><USER14> It needs to be able to do video editing on dual 4k monitors and run AAA games, too. This _is_ the future we're talking about.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'll take his MacBook for him so it isn't such a major inconvenience!</comment>


Poking holes in the "Gravity" trailer with NASA's help - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/10/poking-holes-in-the-gravity-trailer-with-nasas-help/ <comment><USER2> Phil Plait's (Bad Astronomer) review(1) on Slate is based on the actual movie rather than the trailer. The summary is that despite some big problems with the science, it's a fantastic movie and you should go see it. I agree with him, I saw it yesterday and loved every minute of it. I'm able to both recognize that it's not scientifically accurate and still enjoy the hell out of an otherwise well written, acted, directed, and beautiful film.

(1) [http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/10/04/ba_movie...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/10/04/ba_movie_review_gravity.html)

<comment><USER3> Entirely agree. Hater's gonna hate and all that applies more than ever here. I saw it with my GF in IMAX 3d last night and we both loved it - though it was touch and go at the beginning with her as the motion was making her feel a tad ill!

<comment><USER4> I loved it. The only part that actually annoyed me for impossibility was the:

SPOILERS BELOW:

The pivotal moment between Clooney and Bullock. They were both moving at 0 velocity relative to each other, yet somehow he's 'pulling' her away? Definitely not physically accurate how it's portrayed. A simple pull of any sort should have brought him her way. Was annoying to me that such a key moment was brought on by a physics inaccuracy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Buzz Aldrin liked it: [http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/gravity-review- by-astr...](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/gravity-review-by-astronaut- buzz-639883)

</comment><comment><USER6> I saw the movie yesterday, and I really don't think it's fair to blame the movie producers for their inaccuracies. The premise is real[1], and much of the rest of the movie is constructed by taking the minimal liberties necessary to make the movie work. If the premise of the movie happened in real life, it'd be a 5 minute movie with no survivors, which is no fun, right?

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome)

<comment><USER7> I agree with some of the liberties they took, for example the ISS, the shuttle+hubble and a chinese space station being next to each other, but I'm not so sure about staying in micro-gravity during acceleration phases. Was it because they didn't think the public would understand what acceleration looks like?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The problem with space is that its really really boring and really really quiet, and then, if something goes wrong, you die in 10 seconds. It doesn't make for much of a movie.

<comment><USER9> Actually its the 'something goes wrong and you're going to die in 7 hrs' that makes for the drama. If you died in 10 seconds then I agree, its a sad short film. The story of the Cosmonaut that knew he was going to die was pretty poignant in that way.

I found the discussion about the recent failure with the water in the helmet thing more interesting. The weird thing is that in space you can drown in a half liter of water if you cannot get it to move away from your face. It is perhaps the scariest thought about a zero-g swimming pool where your own gravity pulls you into the center of a ball of water.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> While this article contains many interesting points the premise is just silly: criticizing a (very good) 90 minute movie based on a 5 minute trailer. Perhaps some of the "problems" we're explained away in the other 85 minutes?

SPOILER ALERT

Problem 1: debris - The debris were created after the space walk started by a chain of collisions began by a Russian anti-satellite weapon. So they could would not know to abort the spacewalk before it began.

Problem 2: Clooney's jetpack - The movie explains that he is testing an experimental jetpack that has very long duration. He could apparently set a spacewalk duration record while fly around almost continuously. Maybe this is impossible but the move seem to take place in the future, there is a Chinese space station, and/or alternate reality, the Space Shuttle still flies.

Problem 3: Clooney's Superman impersonation - As explained above this was a more advance jetpack than ever actually used by NASA.

Problem 4: Clooney's rescue attempt - Again the advance jetpack means it would make sense for her to rescue her.

The BIIIIIIG problem 5: From HST to ISS - Since it is an alternate and/or future world there is no reason orbits have to as they are today. It may even make sense to have the HST in a close orbit to IIS to make repairs such as this. And again the more advanced jetpack would make such a journey easier.

Problem 6: Suit abuse - Here I think the article may have a good point seems like the suits would not be able to take all the damage.

<comment><USER11> _Maybe this is impossible but the move seem to take place in the future, there is a Chinese space station_

Err... there _is_ a Chinese space station: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1)

<comment><USER12> > _Err... there is a Chinese space station:_ > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-1)

The Chinese space station portrayed in the film is Tiangong-8. Not number 1.

Thus, the movie takes place in the future. Actually, too far into the future. The Chinese are currently planning to launch their modular space station as Tiangong-3. They're not planning to go through 7 Salyuts first.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> While I love orbital mechanics, I want a movie like Gravity to be made by artists like Cuaron, not NASA scientists.

The movie was utterly stunning. Just go see it.

</comment><comment><USER14> In the trailer, they use sounds in space (explosions, collisions, etc). In the actual movie, these are silent (since you can't hear sound in space).

</comment><comment><USER15> Since I don't really follow Hollywood I found out about this movie only yesterday. I haven't seen it yet, but watched the trailer. So apparently there's something about this movie that provokes poking holes in its portrayal of physics -- I immediately got very annoyed while watching the trailer.

First, they don't have their visors (those Sun protective, gold plated ones). I'm not sure, but I guess that's a big no-no on EVAs, having the Sun enter your field of vision so close to it (in Earth's orbit) would probably do some eye damage. Again, I'm not sure the visor is always mandatory but I don't remember seeing any photos of actual EVAs without it being down.

Second, Sandra Bullock rotating while attached to Canadarm... My impression was that the g force would be too high for her to stay conscious, or able to communicate. But it turns out intuition was wrong on that one: back of envelope calculation gives ~3 g (assuming 15 m length for the Canadarm [assuming it is the Shuttle Canadarm], but it was slightly retracted so it would be less, and a period of ~4 s) while still attached to the Shuttle, and ~1.5 g when the arm broke off (~3 m radius, 2-3 s period). So, that's OK. :)

Third, the abuse those suits were getting! That's just crazy. At that point I got so annoyed that I didn't bother to notice all the other stuff the article talks about.

Now I'm just bummed out that all this might have spoiled the movie for me (I tried not to read the plot section on Wikipedia, but got a glimpse of the ending as I was scrolling). Nerd rage is a horrible thing. :)

</comment><comment><USER16> I saw the movie today, had to chaperon my son and his girlfriend to the movie.

I noticed some flaws, but for a Hollywood movie they were using "comic book physics" which most scifi movies and TV shows use.

I assume that it takes place in an alternative universe where NASA didn't scrub the Space Shuttle program, and space stations are placed close to each other as some form of disaster planning, and of course commercial companies like Space-X and Virgin Galactic didn't exist.

I kind of thought it was like "The Net" but instead of running from the police and computer hackers, she was trying to escape from space and get back to Earth. :)

Anyway my son and his girlfriend saw it and loved it, and both decided to take astronomy because of it. They are both freshmen in high school taking physical science. I think the movie was meant for them. I had to explain after the movie how in space there is no air, and the space capsule parachute was tangled on the ISS and she had to cut it free. That it wasn't because it would slow down the capsule but that it had tethered it to the ISS. That if the chute was free there'd be no air to slow it down. They thought there was something in space the chute would slow it down on, but I told them it was a vacuum. Chutes only work in the atmosphere. That the friction of reentering the atmosphere is what had caused the heat that was burning up the other capsule she had to get on the Chinese station.

Some spoilers _Warning_

Let me see, Explorer Space Shuttle trying to repair a telescope with a new circuit board. Russians go crazy trying to blow up out of control spy satellite with some super missile that just wipes out all satellites and throws debris everywhere. NASA was not aware of it, and had miscalculated the velocity of the debris so there was no way to abort the mission before they got hit. Some super space suit thruster pack got George Cloney to fly around like Superman and save Sandra Bullock and get to the ISS. But the ISS has problems and the Russian space capsule has a deployed parachute in space. Bullock gets snagged on parachute cord, Cloney has to let go to save her or else she'll get lose. She has to use Russian capsule to get to the Chinese station that has a clone of the Russian capsule with a working parachute to get back to Earth. I won't say how it ends though.

Sure it was mostly animation for 90 minutes, and we saw it in IMAX. But the main point is that it gets teenagers to study more math and science as a result of seeing the movie and asking questions about the physics involved. So I can forgive the mistakes and "comic book physics", if it promotes education.

</comment><comment><USER17> Just saw the trailer.

Not sure I can cope with two hours of sandra bullock trying to grab hold of stuff regardless of the physics...

<comment><USER18> See it in IMAX (proper IMAX, not those 'fake' IMAX you sometimes get in multiplexes) and I think you'll have a fantastic time. I saw it today, and as a piece of film making it's really impressive.

I think if you saw it on a smaller screen you would come away less enthused. I thought there were definitely plotting and script problems, but that the visual impact of the film compensated for that. Sandra Bullock is definitely not the best choice, but she's not _terrible_ (I don't think she was Alfonso Cuaron's first choice either).

<comment><USER15> > I don't think she was Alfonso Cuaron's first choice either

According to Wikipedia, Angelina Jolie was the first choice, but in my opinion that would have been a much, much worse choice. What's wrong with Bullock? To me she seems plausible as an astronaut at least as far as physique and appearance go.

<comment><USER19> She's not a _career_ astronaut though, from what I understood she's playing a scientist, sent there to fix the station, having to face her fears and thinking quick on her feet, which makes it all the more believable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> See the movie before poking holes in the trailer.

<comment><USER21> This article was released before the movie was available for viewing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The bigger problem with this movie is all the male gaze and gross gender roles, not the slightly inaccurate physics.</comment>


Ask YC: Why can't anyone compete with craigslist? - <AUTHOR> I can't figure out why no one has become a serious threat to craigslist. No one has even made a dent in the craigslist market share. Why? <comment><USER2> Because nobody is willing to compete with a company that doesn't seem to want to make money. What would you do better than Craigslist? It's not clear that there is much (besides better search), and it's not clear that you could monetize it when competing against a behemoth nonprofit.

<comment><USER3> "besides better search"

You say that like it's not a big deal. It's 8 am in Honolulu, one of the smaller cl cities, and there are 200 cars posted today. There's no way to search by year, blue book, mileage, etc, all of which are (generally) possible with the existing data. I think craigslist could be much more useful.

The biggest thing holding them back is their uncharacteristic resistance to mashups. I strongly believe they're working against their own aims (public service) in shutting down services that scrape their data.

<comment><USER4> I just spent a better part of an hour typing out a response only to lose it.

To summarize:

Search is key. CL are a non-player in our market, but the CL equivalent cannot compete with us in automotive.

Why? High quality reference data, the kind that means you can't add a 1999 Ford Pinto CL if no such thing exists, and if it did exist we know it came with an iPod dock, is reasonably expensive to create and maintain and generalist just don't have the focus.

High quality reference data leads to high quality search, where you search for 2007 Ford X and get only '07 Ford X' or you search for late model BMW's between $25k and $33k and get exactly those, tends to deliver high quality buyers. Search quality and lead quality are inextricably linked. Sellers tend to follow high quality buyers.

I don't know how CL fares vertical for vertical, but I'd be quite surprised if in most markets they were the #1 player in each vertical.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The network effect.

The most important feature of a classifieds site is cost to reach audience X. At this point, it is probably impossible to compete with Craigslist on that metric.

<comment><USER6> yeah it's all network effect and branding. Kijiji has been having problems finding a foot hold anywhere. Just the same way olx.com has got gotten big in the USA but is big internationally.

<http://www.flugpo.com>

At flugpo we are building a craigslist competitor that has better everything. But it's hard to get a large foothold anywhere with out being able to focus on a market and work at it for a long time.

<comment><USER7> srry not to be mean but you totally missed the market craigslist is actually better than your site... we are working on a competitor but only in germany.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> To beat Craigslist, you need to find something about Craiglist that can not only be done better -- but that users actually want _more_ than Craigslist's reach. Both those requirements need to be there for a competitor to have a chance.

In other words, it's not sufficient enough to say, "Somebody could easily build a better-looking Craiglist". Users aren't willing to post or browse classifieds on a site that may look nicer by doesn't have the same reach.

Likewise, it's not sufficient to offer a site that has "modern" (Web 2.0) tools. Again, that doesn't help users with their primary objective: getting their ad in front of as many people as possible.

So does Craiglist even have an Achilles' Heel then? In my opinion, the one thing that absolutely sucks about posting an ad to Craiglist is getting a ton of flakey or illegible responses from people who are just wasting your time. I don't bother to post small items there anymore because it's just not worth the trouble. If someone could develop a site that filters out all the flakes, I bet you'd have a compelling reason for people to start using it.

</comment><comment><USER9> I've analyzed this market quite a bit (as I've thought about creating a startup in this area) and the best attack vector I identified was to commodotize the platform.

Do to Craigslist what slinkset does to reddit. Go after a thousand niche markets. Craigslist lets you suggest new locations but that's about it. But there's no reason every small town/organization/hobby/school/company shouldn't be able to have it's own classifieds website.

<comment><USER10> didn't edgio try this?

<comment><USER11> no.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Whenever there is something free and useful, it's only a matter of time before a not-quite-as-free and even-more-useful alternative comes along.

Craigslist is the ultimate "free and useful" site. But it does a lot.

Dating sites, in particular, outdo Craigslist for personals pretty routinely. OKCupid and PlentyOfFish are almost as free (they have ads), but are much less spammy. (CL's w4m boards are pretty much 100% spam. The others aren't much better. Actually, I'm not sure why they even continue to keep them up.)

The last time I sold a car, and the last time I bought one, I did use CL pretty aggressively, but the actual deal I ended up making was through Autotrader both times.

So, it's possible to compete with Craigslist in specific areas, but it's a bit foolish to try to be the "all forms of classified", since they do THAT pretty damn well. They've stripped down the feature set to the point where it's just what is necessary, and _nothing_ else. Not a bad strategy. (Arguably, the only one that really works.)

The trick is to find something where CL is the best of breed, and figure out the pain points. If the answer is "there aren't any pain points", then move on to the next idea.

<comment><USER13> I completely agree, you would have to attack it at it's weakness and then build from there. I don't think you can just throw a bunch of money at a better functioning site and get the users you need. Craigslist didn't get where they are by trying to be in every city at once. They offer every classified but they started one city at a time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The very grassroots way that CL gained popularlity is making it really difficult to dislodge as the dominant figure in their market. Since people were pulled in by word of mouth originally, and (generally) feel comfortable with the site, it is going to take a significant perk to convince them to move.

My thought is that it will happen in time if they don't adapt and modernize, but they have a great hold right now.

</comment><comment><USER15> The only feasible way I see to compete against craigslist is to be local. Start with one small city, get your bearings and understand the market there and then move into a larger market one by one. I would recommend against SF but Sacramento, Seattle, Houston, etc would all be good markets to launch a full-scale local classifieds. I know several companies that are working on this right now and they seem to be having some luck. It takes dedication to the market to get a foot in the door and leverage to open it all the way.

</comment><comment><USER16> In Norway there's a service called Finn (www.finn.no), that translates to "Find"

They were backed by a large news corporation, so that probably helped. The corporation really didn't want to look too much at classifieds on the internet, since they had a paper business to protect. That's why they waited until 2000 before the site was released.

When it comes to real estate, I think they have close to 100% of the market. Only real estate agents are allowed to post ads, and I think they pay a lot to do so.

They are also huge in the motor market. You have to pay 76 USD to add your used car to the listing. There are numerous free alternatives, but people still use Finn because it is _the_ place to go.

When free alternatives can't compete, what can?

But on the positive side, there's not a lot of spam :-)

Examples: <http://www.finn.no/finn/car/used/result?CAR_MAKE=749>

<http://www.finn.no/finn/realestate/homes/result?areaId=20061>

</comment><comment><USER17> I've looked through all the comments here and while most of the answers seem to be along the critical mass variety/network effects/market reach, I think the better answer is branding. Specifically, Craig Newmark has earned my trust, and that of millions of others for no other reason than he's a pretty good dude. If you're going to beat Craigslist -- Craig Newmark -- at Craig's game, you're have to do things significantly better than they do. Not marginally better, but significantly better. And certainly there are problems with the level of spam in Craigslist, but those are solvable problems, given enough time. And the problem with Kijiji, which may have a better technical solution, is that it's run by Ebay, which once had my trust, but has since lost it.

Frankly, I wouldn't buy a ham sandwich from Meg Whitman.

As an aside, I'm listening outside my window right now, and am overhearing a couple of busboys at the nextdoor restaurant speaking in Spanish about how to find rooms for rent on Craigslist.

\-- Fred

</comment><comment><USER18> Having spent a year trying to compete with Craigslist (albeit entirely on my own), I can say it's a damn hard market to break into. You're competing with free. Your market by definition scrimping on money. You're competing against a very well-known brand name.

I'd love it if my little hobby project (<http://dibs.net>) managed to take off, even a little bit. It'd be dead-simple to write apps against the API. I'd encourage it! IMHO, Dibs is what CL would be if it weren't built a decade ago.

<comment><USER19> one problem right off the bat with dibs.net is that, as with seemingly 100% of US-based sites relying on geo-location information, it fails horribly outside of the (US-based) developer's market: I'm currently in Lucerne, central Switzerland, yet it put me in Emmen, a sleepy suburb north of Lucerne.

Edit: A quick re-test with the google map thingy shows me that dibs.net doesn't even want to know about Lucerne, and instead is fixated on suburbs and villages around Lucerne :(

My advice: Until there's some magical geolocation service that works 100% all of the time, don't offer it. I know I can change it on your site, but many many many people won't be doing that.

<comment><USER18> Thanks for the feedback slater. It's true that geolocation data is probably less accurate outside the US. And since I'm on a budget I use only free services (the paid data sources would have more accuracy). I might be missing your point, though. Emmen is only 4.4km from Lucerne, so the map search area is nearly identical. Is your issue that it says "Emmen" at the top?

<comment><USER19> You said it: Nearly identical. But in Europe, and more so in Switzerland where distances aren't so vast as in the US, 4.4km is "far away". Sounds silly, but it's true.

As for "my issue", it's the fact that I'm in more or less dead-central Lucerne, yet I can't for the life of me get the google maps widget to interact with your geolocation script to show "Lucerne". It gives me "Within 0 miles of" and then a list of suburbs and villages just outside of Lucerne: Emmen (4km away), Horw (about the same distance), Kriens (just outside of Lucerne), and Weggis, which is about 20km further down and on the other side of the lake! :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> As others have said, Craigslist has an enormous audience which is a self- reinforcing factor.

It also has a practically-unimpeachable reputation as a company which doesn't seem to have much interest in making as much money as it can - only as much as it needs to make.

It does have a number of weaknesses, though. Certain areas are gigantic, useless spam traps. Some territories (the UK springs to mind) are full of basically nothing. Some other territories (like Ireland) are almost entirely uncovered. And a spam-controlled free version of those parts CL is charging for would have a chance at competitiveness.

Nobody's "become a serious threat" to CL because nobody as yet is trying to hit those soft areas while also providing the other services you can get at CL.

Making "a dent in the CL market share" is probably the wrong metric to pay attention to, though - a number of CL-alikes have significant traffic outside the US where CL basically sucks at the moment and has no market share to lose. A quick comparison of Gumtree.com in London versus its CL equivalent shows that it's not Craigslist in pole position.

Again, on localisation of content: CL contains an awful lot of material of no direct relevance to the city you're supposed to be looking at, and all its discussion areas are US-only but propagated worldwide anyway.

I get the strong feeling that on top of all this, CL reinforces its innocuous- little-guy image with its almost wilfully unstyled UI. I doubt that a slick WebTwenny design would help any competitor.

</comment><comment><USER21> Network effects are huge, and especially tough to overcome when the price of listings on Craigslist is so low, but I think there's another effect at work: namely, their minimalism actually makes the site _more_ useful for their users than a more structured listing model would be.

By storing only very minimal posting metadata, and eschewing an API that would allow mash-ups and alternate browsing interfaces, Craigslist offers the same (often overlooked) advantage that old-school classified ads do: namely, they more or less force people to read a lot of the ads in order to have any chance of finding something.

That's better for sellers, because it increases the chances their ad will be seen, and in many cases it benefits buyers, too, since they may stumble across ads that would never have shown up in a more sophisticated search result set.

</comment><comment><USER22> It odd that no one has commented on all the problems Craigslist has been having. It is inundated with spam. Some categories in some cities have been rendered useless. Take a look at the Craigslist complaint boards. People are abandoning Craigslist in droves. Craigslist today is not what it was three or five years ago. Replicate the Craiglist of three years ago, address spam and similar issues: therein lies the way to make a dent in their market share.

</comment><comment><USER23> I think it's all about craigslist's ease of use. there is no 'required' information that you have to input. Take cars for example.. you don't have to spend 20 mins filling out a huge form that contains a bunch of [possibly] superfluous information. you just post whatever you want to post and that's it.

try to make anything "better" than craigslist almost requires that you force people to provide more information and make it less likely for them to use your service

</comment><comment><USER24> Its just one of those things where you don't really try to threaten CL, you just do what you can to have fun with your online classifieds and hope for success. Our site. <http://.www.AddAnything.com> is a perfect example of keeping things simple. If it happens, it happens, if not, just sit back and enjoy the ride :)

</comment><comment><USER25> I think kijiji is on its way to getting a foothold in the free classifieds market.

In response to your question , I think it's hard because the value of craigslist is in the breadth of it's listings and readers, not in any technical feature. I think a competitor will likely have to take advantage of an already captive audience. I thought facebook marketplace had a great shot, but it didn't seem like they focused on it much.

</comment><comment><USER26> The value of craigslist is in its community which creates a very useful network for selling things, finding an apartment, etc. It's active community also helps police it by removing spam, thus maintaining a relatively good signal to noise ratio. So, unless you are able to create a critical mass elsewhere, it will be hard to dislodge.

</comment><comment><USER27> It's not just about how good the site is, or what features they have. There are _huge_ network effects. If you're a buyer, you want to go where there are a lot of sellers. And vice versa. And Craigslist has that.

If anyone wants to become a serious threat to craigslist, there is a huge chicken-and-egg problem to overcome.

</comment><comment><USER28> What if you had a service that stole craigslist's data, but had a better interface and better search? You would then have a superset of Craigslist's data, but with a better experience. It would probably be illegal, but you could host it in Lower Elbonia where you wouldn't get prosecuted, like Mygazines.

<comment><USER10> there are plenty of sites that do just that, none of them gain any real traction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Gumtree is more popular in the UK. (It was bought a three years ago by ebay.)

</comment><comment><USER7> Mostly because people are focused on the wrong things, we are working on a german classified site, we might be looking for a US Team in some months. Preferred location San Francisco :-) that would be fun.

</comment><comment><USER30> What's wrong with Craigslist that makes it worth the loss of network effect, or the cost of looking at irrelevant ads, or - best of all - worth cash money to fix?

I don't have an answer. Until someone comes up with one...

</comment><comment><USER31> 1\. It works 2\. It is cheap (mostly free)

This is the same reason why it's hard to beat google, ebay, etc.

Things change when the company which owns a market leading product makes a mistake - case in point: Microsoft Windows Vista.

</comment><comment><USER32> For the same reason no one will be able to beat wikipedia. It's a LOVED company. People will flock to craigslist till it turns on it's users. Case in point ebay.

</comment><comment><USER19> A better design for Craigslist has already been done here: <http://craigslist.thebignoob.com/>

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm finding that ebay's Kijiji is providing a good alternative (though its name is annoyingly difficult to remember or relate to others in speech).

</comment><comment><USER34> Metcalfe's law states that the value of a network is proportional to the square of the number of users of the system (n²)

And craigslist has a lot of users...

</comment><comment><USER35> How about a widget for the iPhone? Upgrade Craigslist by using the iPhone that pulls listings, receive the classified and call directly.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have the ultimate Craiglist killer idea. Really do. If you are a hacker of considerable intellect, contact me.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have the ultimate Craiglist killer idea. Really do. If you are a hacker of considerable intellect, contact me.

</comment><comment><USER37> In a word? Branding.

It's the same reason you find Google & Ebay continue to dominate their respective markets.

<comment><USER38> Really? Google doesn't solve any hard problems?

<comment><USER37> Well when we're talking about search - both the Yahoo and Live engines have effectively caught up in providing relevant results when searching, yet Google still has a dominating position which is still growing.

That right there is a result of branding.

It's the same reason why Coke dominates the soda market, if someone walks into a store to get a drink of some form, the chance that they will get a Coke is high - when any of the drinks will essentially do the same job.

To add some perspective I'll give a recent personal experience, which isn't conclusive by any stretch but illustrates my point easily enough.

I have an Uncle who approached me last week asking for advice about buying his first computer because he wanted to get onto the Internet so that he could search for Surfing stuff (his hobby) and also use Ebay. He's never used the net before, but already has a good idea of what Ebay is, and can name sites like Google (but not yahoo interestingly enough).</comment></comment></comment>


Botwall: Real-Time Polymorphism - <AUTHOR> https://shapesecurity.com/technology/

<comment><USER2> While randomizing the id's etc sounds like a good idea, if the structure of the code is always the same it is still possible to create a bit, just find the first/second/nth form on the page, first will input be username second password and done.

Also patent pending? What a great way to contribute to security, want to use my method? Pay me. This should not be patented.

<comment><USER3> If this is anything like anti adblock scripts I've seen, it'll insert random elements to prevent that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "Shape has invented a patent-pending approach to implementing polymorphism in real-time on websites"... is it a JOKE????? Using a hashkey on forms and fields with -for example- a java interceptor has been done for a few years now... it just can't be patented under any sany system (but USPTO might be stupid enough to do it)</comment>


Dutch Scientists Find a Novel Coronavirus Early-Warning Signal - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/coronavirus-in-sewage-portended-covid-19-outbreak-in-dutch-city <comment><USER2> They claim "the first report of detection of SARS-CoV-2 in sewage" but if I search Google News for 'covid wastewater' I find several reports of similar studies going back months.

That aside I wonder if there's already an infrastructure in place for mass testing of wastewater for all sorts of things. If it's useful for covid it might be useful for other diseases or health problems.

Then I start to wonder about the privacy implications of mass sewage collection. If it was localized I can imagine an authoritarian state using it to enforce anti-drug or anti-beef policies.

<comment><USER3> This article is almost two months old. If I'm not mistaken, these researchers were actually the first to test and find S-CoV-2 in wastewater. Their data was shared unpublished, in the name of haste. This led to a prompt parallel study by Lodder & Husman, who hit publication within days of the study named in the parent article.

These are the folks who set off the whole 'testing wastewater for covid' thing. They're not falsely claiming to be first on the scene. You're being misled by the context, because someone posted an old article.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes true, was inspired by this story: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23319800](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23319800)

If I still could I would change the title to correctly reflect it's age.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This was dated in March 31, 2020.

For a very rapidly developing global pandemic event, any news that's more than one month old could potentially proven to be false or irrelevant. For example, Hydroxychloroquine, CDC adivce on wearing Masks, ventilators demand, etc.

<comment><USER5> the CDC advice on not wearing masks early on was pure BS. pure BS and misinformation spread to cover lack of resources.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is pretty cool. Poop's a good universal, non- invasive test. If the sample rate was high enough would be helpful to detect outbreaks, esp. if this becomes seasonal.

Probably not economically feasible, but you could envision "in-line" sampling systems spread throughout the waste system to localize where an outbreak is starting and send in the contact tracers and testers.

<comment><USER7> If it becomes endemic is there really a need?

<comment><USER8> It'd be pretty cool if we had a general system in place for capturing the spread of future diseases.

<comment><USER7> Yeah for sure, though I wonder by the time we realize that's where we're at, and by the time we design, ramp and scale the detection grid, how much the ship will have sailed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Paper Preprint [https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.0c00357](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.0c00357)

a french team in this space too [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.12.20062679v...](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.12.20062679v2) [https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found- pa...](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/coronavirus-found-paris-sewage- points-early-warning-system)

also this from Yale [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.19.20105999v...](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.19.20105999v1)

at EPFL [https://actu.epfl.ch/news/covid-19-les-eaux-usees-pour- detec...](https://actu.epfl.ch/news/covid-19-les-eaux-usees-pour-detecter-l- evolution-/)

</comment><comment><USER10> Time for SmartPipe! :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ)</comment>


Launching Postoplan on Product Hunt - <AUTHOR> https://www.producthunt.com/posts/postoplan-1 <comment><AUTHOR> We're happy to announce that we have launched a new service for managing social networks and messaging apps- POSTOPLAN. We're up on Product Hunt now The main features of our system: - The basic functionality is always free - Publish as many posts as you want with no limits - A wide range of social networks and messaging apps - Convenient interface, division for projects and various color schemes for better use - Event calendar with pre-prepared content for each day - Automatic status notifications for each scheduled post and message - Instant registration, quick publication, customizing of accounts</comment>