India orders coronavirus tracing app for all workers - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-india-app/india-makes-government-tracing-app-mandatory-for-all-workers-idUSKBN22E07K <comment><USER2> _This is just "security theater", to put it in blunt terms._ The number of smartphone users in India is around 500 million out of a nearly 1.4 billion population. Most of the smartphones are also cheap low end models that likely won't support this app (and without a lot of battery drain and other issues).

The app is also very intrusive in the amount of information it collects. It requires continuous GPS access. It uploads data to a server. There is no data protection or privacy law in India, even after privacy was declared as a fundamental right a few years ago.

I read in a research pointed out in an Ars Technica article that contact tracing using technology starts providing more utility when 60% of the population uses it. That's simply not possible in India.

Interestingly, the information technology minister announced that there would soon be a solution for feature phones as well.

For the requirement on phone manufacturers to pre-install this app on new phones, I hope at least Apple fights it out. We'll soon know how strong Apple is on rights in certain countries.

<comment><USER3> Schneier said it best: [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-1...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/05/me_on_covad-19_.html)

"This is just something governments want to do for the hell of it. To me, it's just techies doing techie things because they don't know what else to do."

<comment><USER4> Well he's definitely mistaken: for example, in Israel, technological contact tracing (not an app tho) by the Shabak led to more than 500 confirmed cases which might not have been detected otherwise:

[https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992](https://news.walla.co.il/item/3348992)

And this was as early as 26 of march, so I bet it continued being significant.

<comment><USER5> No one's going to deny these apps will find some cases. But to be effective they need to find a majority of all cases.

<comment><USER6> Sure, but doing something "for the hell of it" implies it has virtually no practical value, at least to my ears. It's rather unproductive for someone (not you, in this case) to use a sweeping inflammatory statement when they later fall back to what they actually meant: a more reasonable and much weaker statement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The government of India is making it mandatory for all new smartphones to be sold in India post lifting of the lockdown to not just have the app as a pre- installed service, but also ensure that individuals register on it and set it up, before beginning to use their new smartphones.

Source: Aarogya Setu Registration Will be Mandatory to Setup New Phone: Govt Sources

[https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu- registration-w...](https://www.news18.com/news/tech/aarogya-setu-registration- will-be-mandatory-to-setup-new-phone-govt-sources-2599197.html)

<comment><USER8> How does this work with Apple phones? Will apple make set up of their phones dependent on installing government spyware first? How do they handle this in China?

And does this mean that android permissions no longer work? What if people just make location and gps unavailable to the app after installation?

<comment><USER9> > How do they handle this in China

Surprisingly (depending the depth of your understanding of China), Apple phones come out with no extra apps installed.

The phone number on the other hand is tied under your name. You would need an ID to get a phone number and/or sim card, so there's that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you weren't old enough to live through 9/11 and witness the transformation of the country you are probably being naive about contact tracing today.

At first everyone was on board and patriot act was justified: we were under attack. There was no clear end of this attack, so the patriot act got renewed.

We caught bin laden and killed him. Great! End of the patriot act? Nope, there was still a "threat". 19 years later it's normalized.

I predict the same thing will happen here. There is no scenario in which this will not be abused.

<comment><USER11> What do you propose we do about it?

The response to 9/11 seems so disproportionate because it presupposed the existence of thousands more plots, _which never materialized_. Preserving civil liberties would have been free.

The spread of the virus is not a conspiracy theory or a what-if/abundance-of- caution proposition. It is an observable fact. There is no way the public tolerates the devastation that _will definitely materialize_ if we go back to making arbitrary, untraceable contacts. If contact tracing is intolerable, then so is contact.

At some point, people are going to be ready to repeal the 4th amendment if it means seeing their friends again.

<comment><USER12> People will just go out, which they're already doing. Nobody would ever agree to repealing the 4th amendment, they would challenge the government's authority to restrict their movement.

The police can't arrest all of us.

<comment><USER11> I think you overestimate your neighbors' appetite to murder hundreds of millions of people, or to let others get away with doing so.

<comment><USER13> heh, what? in what scenario does contact tracing save hundreds of millions of lives? I think if it were widely agreed upon that it would save hundreds of millions, folks would universally be on board. It's disingenuous to assert that people who are against contact tracing are murderers, because evidence is lacking that it will make the difference between peak caseloads exceeding or staying under healthcare capacity.

<comment><USER12> > It's disingenuous to assert that people who are against contact tracing are > murderers

Thank you. Unfortunately this is a heated / political issue now, it's going to take a long time to restart the economy.

<comment><USER11> The economy is not getting restarted without a way to mitigate the virus's spread. Maybe for a few weeks, until people see with their own eyes what exponential growth of dead bodies looks like, but not sustainably.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I don't think people realize the gravity of what's being done. While google and apple design nice apis which can do contact tracing while maintaining privacy, that's not how contact tracing will be implemented as shown by this app. It requires :

\- a mobile phone number \- location and bluetooth, always on \- name,profession

The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to contact people but the potential for abuse is there.

Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance state in the making.

They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works.

To top it all off, non compliance is a criminal offence. FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India.

Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking.

Edit : Manufactures will need to preinstall it on new devices. You can see where this is going.

More reading :

\- [https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during- covid-19/](https://internetfreedom.in/workers-privacy-during-covid-19/)

\- [https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations- and-105-prominen...](https://internetfreedom.in/45-organizations- and-105-prominent-individuals-push-back-against-the-coercion-of-aarogya-setu/)

\- [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to- us...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/how-to-use-aarogya- setu-app-and-find-out-if-you-have- covid-19-symptoms/articleshow/75023152.cms?from=mdr)

<comment><USER15> You know that the app can be removed at any instant, once the lockdown is over?

Contact tracing in India, which has one of the lowest Police / People ratios in the world, is extremely difficult. There are a billion+ people and simply not enough personnel to do any contact tracing.

Sections of the society are hostile towards medical and police personnel.

What alternative do you suggest? One that can be implemented immediately.

> The mobile number part concerns me. Government wants to use it as a way to > contact people but the potential for abuse is there

What abuse are you talking about?

> Installing this app is mandatory for public and private companies. So if you > are an employee, you have no choice in the matter. It's like a surveillance > state in the making.

These are the ones who are travelling. What better method is there to execute contact tracing?

> They are also planning an e pass feature which will be required to board a > flight/metro. Chinese level dystopian shit in the works.

The virus is in India due to international travelers. You would want to know where an international traveler has been during his travel. Once someone is out of India, the govt. can't do anything.

> Random cops stopping to ensure you have the app installed? Happening. Non > complaince? Do situps, get beaten with a lathi. I wish I was joking.

If you are roaming out when there is a lockdown, the cops ought to check the app. The app is meant for contact tracing. About getting beaten or made to do situps, in my view, a far lesser punishment rather than charging and going the legal route. Than would be draconian.

Also, this requirement for app installation is because the lockdown is being considerably relaxed in majority of the country.

I would agree about privacy issues if the govt. asks citizens to use it even after this pandemic is done. In that case, I myself will go to the streets to fight.

But, in the current situation, this is absolutely required and the only cost- effective, efficient way for contact tracing in a country like India.

<comment><USER16> > There are a billion+ people

> simply not enough personnel to do any contact tracing.

Those seem a bit contradictory, no? China also has over a billion people and managed to find the labor to perform contact tracing.

<comment><USER17> China has made QR readers checkpoints across city to track people's each and every movement.

<comment><USER16> When the pandemic started, they hired thousands of people to do the old- fashioned, labor intensive version of contact tracing. Technology and preexisting state powers certainly played a part, but the manual contact tracing is very transferrable everywhere.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Reminder that the same government has leaked billions of records so far. More leaks than the people in the entire country.

One example - [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/04/a-security- breach-in-india-has-left-a-billion-people-at-risk-of-identity-theft/)

And you can find many. You won't get anyone caring about privacy in government offices. A lot of government workers here are negligent pension parasites. I expect the same in most parts.

I know of a few sites where they don't do any validation on the server side and it's easy to fake being authenticated by sending an additional header. There are quite a few sites with firebase without any granular validation or access control implemented. Some even allow SQL injection attacks using some old php framework. I sent them email but no response. And Frankly speaking, I would be very worried about sending anything security related to government without using some anonymous non traceable email because you might be put into jail.

They can't even handle surges in scale. Most government sites are broken. Any student who has ever had to deal with it knows it. Any business person who depends on those sites for approval knows it.

They also require biometrics to sign in some of those sites now. Absolutely baffling with no alternative.

This is absolutely bad. More so as when they want to release personal protection data bill around September - [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bil...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Data_Protection_Bill_2019)

Obligatory internet shutdowns - [https://internetshutdowns.in/](https://internetshutdowns.in/)

Jio using sni to block sites - [https://cis-india.org/internet- governance/blog/reliance-jio-...](https://cis-india.org/internet- governance/blog/reliance-jio-is-using-sni-inspection-to-block-websites)

They block more than porn sites including vpns and normal communication tools - [https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom- fi...](https://qz.com/india/1547142/not-just-porn-indian-telecom-firms-are- blocking-other-websites-too/)

This is a surveillance state in the making.

<comment><USER19> Yep India tops the list of Internet Shutdowns, they shutdown the internet for petty reasons like "school exams" so that kids don't cheat or the paper won't "leak" to shutting down internet whenever there is a mass agitation. Kashmir is an entire different thing, its been more than 8 months that the entire state has no full access to the internet.

<comment><USER18> I don't think the problem is students cheating but that the test is designed in a way that cheating provides more benefit than learning/honesty.

The cultural pressure cooker is also there and the rat race comes after.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> See my research thread at [https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/12561244277810626...](https://twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1256124427781062656) into the Australian contact tracing application. Pay close attention to the problems people are having when signing up and registering. Lack to response from the Government has been highly frustrating. Leadership is parroting amount of downloads as success but let's be honest it's a vanity metric if people are having signup issues (and they really are)

<comment><USER20> We put together a panel of software engineers who studied the actual source code because the government had failed to provide a credible expert that the media could interface with. This caused many issues.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4)

<comment><USER20> See previous discussion on HN at [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22986147)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm just wondering, what if a person doesnt have smartphone? There are many elderly people who still have Nokia 1100 or something like that, and do not care. Will they get beaten every day? Or if this is mandatory, will the government provide free devices to everyone?

<comment><USER22> In Poland they make people install government issued App or declare[1] under threat of perjury that you don't own a suitable device.

> will the government provide free devices to everyone?

Free and subdermal. /s

[1] [https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa- ea35bf...](https://www.gov.pl/attachment/f3014313-bed3-4012-98fa-ea35bf71dc2d)

<comment><USER23> Nice, I hope these Nokia phones make a comeback. I miss the long battery life.

<comment><USER24> I've just checked that my old LG flip phone still works, perhaps I'll have to start using it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> For whatever reason, whenever the Indian government does dystopian or downright anti-human shit, a whole bunch of apologists descend on threads to support the government. Does India have have a "50 cent party" like the Chinese do? Or is it a lack of civic/rights education in technical colleges in India? Ive noticed this even among Indian/Chinese expats that go complete nuts defending whoever they have in power back home.

<comment><USER26> Eh, it is the same for Poland. Even relatively minor criticism is immediately assumed to be a deliberate attack on the ruling party and so proponents of the current government descend. I am not ruling out paid supporters, but besieged castle defense is a well known tactic for politicians. Case in point, coworker is Indian, and not overly pro or anti Modi, but you can't say a bad thing about him without surprinsingly strong defese. Something about doing it for India's interest. It is an argument.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> The Privacy Policy is extremely dangerous and has been changed silently already. Although it claims to restrict the purpose and time of data collection, it coolly has 2 additional clauses which give blanket power.

[https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu- Pr...](https://www.medianama.com/wp-content/uploads/Aarogya-Setu-Privacy- Policies-Comparison.pdf)

""The personal information collected will not be used for any purpose other than those mentioned in this Clause 2 save as required in order to comply with a legal requirement."

"All personal information collected from you under Clause 1(a) provided at the time of registration will be retained for as long as your account remains in existence and for such period thereafter as required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used or is otherwise required under any other law for the time being in force"

<comment><USER28> This policy is _ridiculous_ \- the phrasing is so broad as to allow almost any retention period and almost any use by any part of the government or security services. Which presumably is the point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> The covid choice: 1) you jail your poulation for 2 years, 2) you adopt a police-state, 3) you accept 1% of your population will die. Seems that India is going for 2).

<comment><USER7> India was always a surveillance state in the making, thanks to Aadhaar.

The Indian government is now utilizing the crisis to fast-pace the process. Not only are they planning to make the contact tracing app registration on new phones mandatory, they're also planning to bring the app to feature phones.

Source: Aarogya Setu coming on feature phones; to cover the entire country [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya- setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire- country/articleshow/75493148.cms)

<comment><USER30> Has Aadhaar been used for surveilling people?

<comment><USER2> Yes, and even for knocking people off of voter lists in Andhra Pradesh.

<comment><USER30> Any reference for that? Voters list is routinely updated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> The real question is, after this all dies down, will these apps be repurposed and become the new normal?

<comment><USER32> You betcha!

<comment><USER33> How much would you be willing to bet on this?

<comment><USER32> All the historical data of governments taking "emergency powers" and not letting them go afterwards.

<comment><USER34> I don't disagree with you. What are some historical instances of this that I can read up on?

<comment><USER32> The most significant, perhaps, was the aftermath of Reichstag fire [1]. What happened after that, we all know.

[1][https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Perhaps one of the best things to come out of publically documented efforts by Google, Apple and other researchers, is that in any country with a half- functioning legal system, lawsuits against the sort of app ordered by India can realistically point to a more privacy-oriented mechanism and ask "what is your defence for not using that instead".

I've been attending a zero-knowledge crypto conference recently and it is really interesting to see that all sorts of policy measures can be implemented in ways while continuing to preserve tbe private details of individuals.

Unfortunately the tech and math is not yet mature or ubiquitous enough for it to be assumed as the default way to do what India wants to do.

Eventually it may be. Meanwhile, I'm please the Google-Apple thing is being looked at, and pleased it is done openly enough to get expert scrutiny from a vsariety of perspectives.

<comment><USER36> A system that relies on Google to enforce the privacy rights of citizens is a system that has already failed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The government might have good intent, but this is how totalitarian regimes begin: through a steady erosion of rights and choice.

The taste of totalitarian power is known to be severely addictive that degenerates progressively. It is like a lion that tastes human flesh, turns into maneater and cannot go back.

Edit: spell fix

</comment><comment><USER38> This is seriously bad news and it will continue to unfold around the world until you can't take a piss behind a bush without the government knowing (it's happening back home in Australia too). The Australian PM stated [1] that further reopening is contingent on more installations of the contact tracing app. There are undoubtedly some within governments who see this is a wholly beneficent solution but getting this system in is a foot in the door to the ultimately authoritarian goal of surveillance nirvana. Within every government exists groups of people whose job is to dream up systems like this. One more giant bite out of the elephant that is privacy.

Will it be abused? Even if governments had a perfect track record of respecting privacy and the stated intentions of technology it would still be cause for concern. But they don't... governments [1] and companies [2] have almost programmatically abused and overstepped because it's possible, profitable (economically and politically) and rarely if ever any consequence.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison- says-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/morrison-says-early- mark-of-eased-restrictions-depends-on-uptake-of-covidsafe-tracing-app) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_\(surveillance_program\)) [3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Ana...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook%E2%80%93Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal)

</comment><comment><USER39> A fish which finds the ocean not habitable, either moves to different waters or evolves to filter out the surrounding.

It does not try to change nature of the ocean.

</comment><comment><USER40> 1\. If the data is collected anonymously, why is the mobile number required?

2\. What if an employee has only a feature phone, not a smartphone?

<comment><USER14> 1\. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak.

2\. These mfers are building the app for feature phones as well. [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya-s...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/aarogya- setu-coming-on-feature-phones-to-cover-the-entire- country/articleshow/75493148.cms)

<comment><USER17> "1\. It's not anonymous in any way, just some bullshit marketing speak. " Source ?

<comment><USER14> What source do you want? The app literally asks for your phone number, name, profession. Which of these details make you think "anonymous" has any meaning at all.

<comment><USER17> There are 2 different aspects of privacy in Contact Tracing technology. One is regarding device-to-device contact and another is device to cloud. In case of device to device, there's no knowledge if it shares your personal info to other phones.

If a person is found COVID positive, all the traced contacts will be under high-risk. In that case the details are sent to the cloud/governments to take apt precautions and to quarantine the individuals.

Even Apple/Google's contact tracing app send your personal data to the cloud and "works closely" with governments.

Source: [https://www.apple.com/in/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and- google-p...](https://www.apple.com/in/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and-google- partner-on-covid-19-contact-tracing-technology/)

<comment><USER41> The difference being that in the Apple/Google implementation, the app only sends anonymous tokens, with nothing tying them to anyone the infected met. Then their contacts download the full list of these tokens from the cloud and match them against their local history of tokens. (Again, key part being that this matching happens locally, not in the cloud.) The government never gets involved except in allowing the infected to upload their (anonymous) history.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Can anyone explain the effectiveness of such apps that are being used by some countries. If the apps help, isn't there an argument of "life vs. privacy", And if these app don't, then why isn't the effectiveness being challenged.

I understand the privacy advocacy but in matters of life and death (that is how a common man perceives covid-19), unless the effectiveness of Coronavirus solutions is dumbed down, this argument will continue. Till then people will see the app download as their contribution to this fight.

</comment><comment><USER43> Over time this will lead to backlash towards mobile technologies from people. Not that big tech does not deserve it after decade of pushing hard on surveillance tech and telling governments how great it is. No country wants a completely anonymous app because it's useless. And abuses like these show already the ugly side of it.

If i knew my phone is bugged, i d leave it at home.

</comment><comment><USER44> Given the current government's political leanings and recent actions, couldn't this lead to further human rights abuses of "unwanted" minorities? Google should block that app the same way they refused to assist with China's abuses.

</comment><comment><USER45> This is just so bad for privacy. The people in India don't care about privacy much, but this will put an end to the attempts of those who did, including me. The worst part is, not many are going to criticise it anyway and it's gonna happen.

</comment><comment><USER46> "FYI the law enforcement, legal system is a complete joke in India."

I kind of got the impression they don't like the police when watching "Extraction" which is an Indian movie with Chris Hemsworth in which they mow down cops for an hour.

<comment><USER47> They mod down Bangladeshi cops; not Indian cops. The "extraction" happens in Bangladesh; not in India.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Not just the workers, all news devices will come pre-installed with the mentioned app.

</comment><comment><USER48> For now, they are doing this in good intention. But they will not stop at that. Privacy is like a joke in India.

This is just the beginning and just an app. Further they do plan to track citizen movements directly from the mobile towers, the app will not be required - it requires them to legally acquire live data from mobile companies. And they have found an excuse to make such privacy intrusion laws. It is making of a police state. There are a few officers in the govt advising against this, but the bottom line is that the govt does not trust the country's citizens.

With Covid-19, the govt officials are publicly sharing the names and addresses of all positive people. The intention is good (to let others know whom to stay away from) and fortunately there is not much social stigma against infected people.

</comment><comment><USER49> This is a publicity disaster. The government should have packaged it with a cute game, like how Nintendo did with street pass, to make it more ethical and acceptable.

I'd have joined Indian Stasi for some Mario.

</comment><comment><USER30> What if I disable/give up mobile data? I seriously doubt they can ensure compliance in this case. Maybe they will ask companies to add it in their compliance requirements.

<comment><USER22> Why do you think you will be able to disable cellular modem in the future? You won't have that option. Also Apple's tracing works offline via Bluetooth.

<comment><USER30> > Also Apple's tracing works via Bluetooth.

That's what I was expecting from this app too. This particular app won't work without cellular-data enabled.

> You won't have that option.

Could you explain this is a bit? Why can't I disable it on my phone?

<comment><USER22> Baseband processors already operate independently with its own operating system and often have greater access than the application processor. Simple firmware update is all it takes right now to have it not turn itself off. CIA actively uses this capability on select targets, as per Snowden leaks, even when the phone is "off."

<comment><USER50> Cellular modem that stays enabled despite user "disabling" will indicate itself by a quickly draining battery. Airplane mode and sleep data have much different battery consumption profiles. Indian people are not that stupid, and this will lead to a violent protest unlike China.

<comment><USER22> You don't need much battery for tracking. Airplane mode is observable because it disables background applications as a side effect. If you only have one optimized spying application, this effect is no longer there. Only security researchers will be able to determine if the phone is really off. And let's not forget that people need to make calls, no one's carrying phones in airplane mode.

It will only take few more compromises in the name of safety & security to make this scenario all but reality. We're living on the precipice of dystopia, and every crisis is a stepping stone.

<comment><USER50> > no one's carrying phones in airplane mode

I do when I am certain that no one will call me or I just do not want to answer any calls.

<comment><USER22> The argument was not about you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> The govt says that we don't have to worry about privacy because our data is safe with them!! :D. Also they ask for lot more permissions than location

<comment><USER18> I don't think some of that is due to malice but incompetence/disregard for privacy in the IT sweatshops that produced it.

<comment><USER8> >the IT sweatshops that produced it.

"The app, conceived by NITI Aayog, has been developed in two weeks by the National Informatics Centre in collaboration with the developers of makemytrip.com and 1mg.com." [1]

None of these are sweatshops.

[1] [https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest- column/story/202004...](https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/guest- column/story/20200427-the-lsquo-long-arm-rsquo-of-an-app-1668042-2020-04-18)

<comment><USER52> I am sure an app developed in 2 weeks will be _very_ secure. Incidentally, I've worked with a bunch of ex-MMT developers for quite sometime, I wouldn't consider most of them very competent.

<comment><USER18> [https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d5...](https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/b7c95d3967514e78a652840b5b666d50)

Here are the permissions it seems to use. I am surprised it's not as draconian as some other government released apps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> That is why you should throw your smartphone into the trash. If you have no smartphone, the government cannot mandate you to install an app on it.

</comment><comment><USER54> Good thing I lost my job during these crises /s.

</comment><comment><USER55> Help chayiya

</comment><comment><USER56> Can i see the source code?

</comment><comment><USER32> This is beyond fucked up! Faraday cages? Fake apps? What's the tech solution for this problem?

<comment><USER57> The short term solution is to turn your phone off. If plausible deniability is needed, just let the battery ran out.

Long term, the proper solution is political rather than technical though.

<comment><USER32> Funny how simple solutions often elude us. Agreed re: long term.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Bad time for Iphone users

</comment><comment><USER59> I wish they would work to eradicate food poisoning also while they are fighting the virus.

</comment><comment><USER60> What if I do not want to carry or own a fucking phone that app needs or heck even a data plan.

</comment><comment><USER61> Every single corporation out there is a totalitarian wet dream

1\. Owns all your I.P "thoughts" while you are on the premises.

2\. Monitors all your communication channels.

3\. Can do drug / psychological testing if you are not performing efficiently.

4\. Usually runs without direct democracy by a corrupt middle management.

5\. Gives you an id number and laptop for easy tracking, blocks websites.

6\. Has an elitist immigration policy via interviews, analogically speaking with easy access to discrimination by any number of ways

7\. Has a class system delineated via dress code, bonuses and liability .... with the lower classes being held most accountable for making mistakes.

8\. Upper class is also exempt from any mistakes and are more free to do what they want, like doing LSD or coke for productivity .... the lower classes like marijuana and alcohol.

9\. Lead by a cult leader with a grand vision of utopia and megalomania.

If you take a hard look at life,

1\. Childhood - Parental authoritarianism

2\. School / College - School authoritarianism

3\. Adult Life - Corporate Authoritarianism

So 20% of your life is in school and college you don't have any rights. And in adult life which is 30% of your life, you spend it in a corporate where you don't have rights. The rest 50% of your life you are weak and useless, unless you have influence.

If you are going to give up rights for a corporate why not a state ? Do rights even matter ? The goal of the government or capitalism is work you to death anyways .... the only time you can exercise any rights is when you are unemployed or the weekend.

</comment><comment><USER62> damned if you do, damned if you don't.\

To everyone who is pointing out the obvious negatives, why don't you go into govt jobs making these apps/policies and do what you believe is correct/perfect.

I couldn't like this approach of mandatory app lesser, but 'lets not do it because it has potential for abuse' cliche needs to phase out.

<comment><USER18> You see, india is way bigger than Singapore or many smaller countries that were able to create more privacy friendly apps than this.

And you can find many open source tools/spec as well. Even after all that, the government is going with this?

Also, it's not about the app but past behaviour of the government. It doesn't seem sincere in the slightest. And democracy makes it so you can't change something if the masses doesn't want it and the masses don't care.

And if you want to change masses, remember that many famous people who changed the world were killed or lynched by the mob.

People are not altruistic. If they think something can benefit them somewhat, they will do it but if there are no upsides, only downsides. Why would you do it?

<comment><USER62> So we are effectively stuck with this right. Why even complain ? Isn't complain a way to achieve change ?

So you are saying at most what we should do is complain. If that changes nothing, what else we could have done.

<comment><USER2> Complaining and making noise is expected in any democracy to sway policy decisions by the executive and legislature. There are going to be lawsuits against this one very soon.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Critiqued coronavirus simulation gets thumbs up from code-checking efforts - <AUTHOR> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01685-y <comment><USER2> I am not sure if it's a thumbs up when they said the code was 'horrible' and 'buggy mess'. Key points to note:

The authors reason that they had to adapt an older version of the simulations code and hence did not have time to write everything from scratch. I think we have all been there.

Reproducibility doesn't imply that the underlying model assumptions were free from flaws. As Taleb pointed out in another talk, "It was wrong to use point- estimates for distributions with heavy tails"

The lead author Neil Ferguson was unfortunately caught up in another controversy where he left his house during lockdown measures to meet his "married lover". He had to resign from some of his positions but this shouldn't affect the research work he published.

<comment><USER3> The people calling the code 'horrible' and a 'buggy mess' don't appear to be the same people as the researchers who have gone to the effort to reproduce the results.

So I don't think that has any bearing on the "thumbs up" report.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This article is all you have to know about the man who is more responsible than any other for the "shut down the world" strategy (which he thought did not apply to him).

Coronavirus: Prof Neil Ferguson quits government role after 'undermining' lockdown.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52553229](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk- politics-52553229)

</comment><comment><USER5> It's a strange but good example of the effects of AI on society.

It tells me that we are far away from being able to produce models that incorporate and aim to optimize a broader notion of human wellbeing.

</comment><comment><USER6> The criticism was mainly on the wrong model and wrong data, not the code quality. A good model must be robust and verifiable, this is neither robust nor verifiable. Just compare it to a good model, like the Göttingen model with Bayes inference, which successfully predicted results two weeks into the future. Multiple times. [https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/05/14/scie...](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/05/14/science.abb9789.full)

Ferguson's model was always exponentially wrong, you can even say catastrophically wrong given the economic costs.

Nature still defending this catatrophy, interesting. So they also switched to non- science, supporting politics. The political angle is that they want to suppress extreme right-wing shifts as after the last such political/economical crisis 1930, caused by fatefully wrong political decisions. As they happened after and because of the Ferguson study.</comment>


Your company's Slack is probably sexist - <AUTHOR> https://work.qz.com/1128150/your-companys-slack-is-probably-sexist/ <comment><USER2> News flash - Women and men are different. Stop the presses!

If they want to engage, they can engage. Nothing sexist there.</comment>


Ask HN: If you had 7k to spend on a SaaS launch, what would you do? - <AUTHOR> We're a small, bootstrapped company whose SaaS product has been in public beta since 2016. We're finally about to launch commercially and have been advised to spend real money to try to capitalize on the launch. We've set aside 7k.
I've contacted a few boutique PR firms in my area (Sweden) and my distinct impression is that they don't get what we're trying to do and lack the connections necessary for us to get placement where it matters. (Our product is "Excel for apps," a web service enabling anyone with spreadsheet skills to create line-of-business web apps.)
If you were in our position, how would you spend the money? Would you hire a PR firm or would you try to do the work yourself and spend the money on advertising? Or do something else entirely? <comment><USER2> Do you consider your product to be B2B or B2C? A fundamental aspect of marketing is knowing who your audience is. Narrow it down to a sliver that you think will be the most enthusiastic adopters; then figure out how one gets the attention of those particular users.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's great advice. We have a B2B product and, as you say, we need to get our message out to these specific users. Frankly, I don't think that our "launch" will matter much down the road, but we have been advised to not let the "newsworthiness" of the event go to waste, meaning that we should take the opportunity to get some press. It probably isn't worth 7k, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If the PR firm doesn't get it, chances are that your customers won't get it. I'd personally spend a good amount of money to work on your core messages and brand.

After that, advertising is one way to go if you have a clear = small market that you want to attack first (unclear from your comment, you say "anyone with spreadsheet skills")

Finally, you could invest in blog posts/tutorials to showcase how your SaaS can solve problems in different domains. I find this very useful because if you try to write a 3 steps tutorial and you find out it's 10 pages long, then you may be encouraged to simplify your product from a "new user experience" point of view.

<comment><AUTHOR> The product is horizontal in the sense that it is applicable in a variety of domains, much like spreadsheets. Most of the ~10,000 apps that have been created with our beta relate to pricing and other economic calculations, often created by small business owners. These are the users we primarily need to get out in front of and create content for. I'm looking into advertising on blogs related to this demographic.

(We spent years doing contract work in the health care industry, creating drug dosage calculators and the like using our own app builder, so there are definitely other verticals as well.)

<comment><USER4> If you can't explain it to a PR company how will you explain it to random small business owners.

There's something wrong with your messaging.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The idea seems to be "spend a bunch of money and then launch will succeed".

But, what if it doesn't succeed? What then?

Better approach is "how can we reach potential customers repeatedly". Because that way if first launch doesn't work as well as expected, you have second launch, and third launch, and fourth launch.

(Mostly learned from [https://stackingthebricks.com](https://stackingthebricks.com), though I don't see direct article about this at first glance.)

</comment><comment><USER6> I have little feedback for you, other than don't spend 7k on a PR firm. Maybe someone will hold a different opinion, but for the most part they are useless.

You're probably better investing that money in advertising. Or flying out and meeting new clients. It really depends on the industry and how 'niche' your product is, and how you can connect with your customers.

Conferences can sometimes be interesting as well, if they allow you to connect with people in your industry.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback, that makes sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Do you have any data to show that PR would be an effective channel?

If you're manpower limited, you could double down on marketing channels that are already effective for you, or spend the time and money testing channels.

Check out the book 'Traction' by Gabriel Weinberg (of DuckDuckGo).

<comment><AUTHOR> The book looks great, I've ordered a copy. Thanks!

As I mention elsewhere in the thread, we have been advised to not let the "newsworthiness" of our launch go to waste, meaning that we should take the opportunity to get some press. It probably isn't worth 7k, though. E-mailing a select few publications ourselves and spending the money on advertising on blogs of interest to our demographic is probably a much better use of the money.</comment></comment>


Engine Yard and Orchestra Join Forces - <AUTHOR> http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2011/engine-yard-and-orchestra-join-forces/ <comment><USER2> Orchestra is building a impressive platform indeed (from a tech standpoint). But as a developer it's a black cloud day. Been hoping PHP to be fading away in favor for syntax-wise less sucky languages (there are many superior alternatives - not only the ones I work with if that is the assumption of the reader) that bloat apps out the web for the reason of cheap outsourcing. I love what EY has done through the years for open-source, though I cannot see this action as anything else than choice between money and principles. I hope EY will continue to support open-source software as they have and not forget where they came from - many do.

Congrats to Orchestra guys though, you seem to be talented.

</comment><comment><USER3> Its been a while, at one point EngineYard was pretty awesome and really moved a lot forward in the RoR community. They've lost so many great people (and theres still some great people there), they've been moving more and more away from their developer roots, and in a series of baffling moves have been pushing away boutique customers in favor of highly commoditized cheap hosting. But PHP, really? I guess this is really the nail in the coffin for EY as a serious developer platform.

</comment><comment><USER4> Huge congrats to the guys! Delighted for them, Literally couldn't happen to nicer guys or a better team.

</comment><comment><USER5> Congrats to Eamon, Helgi, David and Noah at Orchestra (and EngineYard on getting a smart crew and good company) - interesting times ahead!

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow, looks like the news brought down the site? <http://orchestra.io/>

<comment><USER6> They're back now. Hearthy congratulations to the lads at Echo Libre here in Dublin by the way! <http://echolibre.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Welcome aboard, Orchestra folk!

</comment><comment><USER8> good news for the irish startup scene

</comment><comment><USER9> I just found out that NIC.IO (a common domain registar for .io domains) stores my password in plain text. Whoopee. I wonder how many startups use it.</comment>


Is it Possible to Hear Electricity? - <AUTHOR> http://experimentgarden.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-it-possible-to-hear-electricity.html <comment><USER2> As far as I know (which is from a minor amount of personal experience and a major amount from my electrical engineering degree), most humming and crackling sounds are produced by corona discharges and they are generally heard only near overhead power cables operating in high voltage ranges (i.e. 6kV and above). That said, I have heard humming sounds from older tube lights too. Apparently this indicates a faulty choke.

</comment><comment><USER3> Seriously? We're discussing _this_ on HN?

No; you cannot, generally, hear electricity, though you _can_ hear the effects of electricity. Transformers hum, CRTs whine and sizzle, speakers buzz and hiss, and sometimes electricity arcs causing a popping sound as it interacts with the air (very rapidly consuming oxygen and producing light and heat and sound).

Weird superstitions about electricity are not interesting.

<comment><AUTHOR> _"Transformers hum, CRTs whine and sizzle, speakers buzz and hiss, and sometimes electricity arcs causing a popping sound as it interacts with the air"_

That is what is interesting, and what I am interested in. What causes those sounds? They obviously aren't weird superstitions, so what is the rational explanation?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> What are your thoughts on "hearing electricity"? Have you ever experienced a similar phenomenon? What scientific explanations have you found or do you know about?</comment>


Paul Graham's wrong on the value of a hacker culture (sadly) - <AUTHOR> http://petewarden.typepad.com/searchbrowser/2010/08/paul-grahams-wrong-on-the-value-of-a-hacker-culture.html

<comment><USER2> If you must substitute a cultural element in your company for hackers, make sure its designers or artists. You can still pull out a win with these folks. If you sub in bureaucrats or marketers instead, you're done.

Most companies go hackers -> suits, sharks are jumped, people start talking about the good ol' days.

Apple instead chose a path hackers -> designers. (They did take an almost fatal detour sans Jobs through suit territory.) This makes them an outlier of the first order and probably not a very good example for establishing a general case like the essay attempts.

The most that could be said is that a culture of design is a viable substitute for a hacker culture in some instances.

<comment><USER3> But then there is eBay, Intel, CraigsList, SAP, Oracle, etc...

In fact I'd argue that most companies succeed based on being good at customer engagement more than hacker/artist/designer culture. There are only two strong counters to this I can think of which are Google and Apple.

<comment><USER2> I'd definitely leave CraigsList off that list, but it seems that once a certain level of market dominance is achieved (through hacker culture, esp. in the case of Intel and eBay) you can switch to almost any old pointy-haired- boss management scheme and still survive. They fossilize and move unstoppably on pure inertia.

Ebay illustrates this perfectly. Nearly everyone who sells on ebay and gets paid through paypal wishes there was a better alternative, but there just isn't.

<comment> wh-uws "...you can switch to almost any old pointy-haired-boss management scheme and still survive"

That's actually exactly the way its supposed to work in the minds of <for lack of better person to put here> suits

Steve Blank has a great articles about this.

<http://steveblank.com/2009/10/01/durant-versus-sloan-part-1/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> There was a comment thread about this question a few months ago in which people from Apple talked about whether it had a hackerly culture: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1596733>

</comment><comment><USER5> I always took PG's Hacker-centric culture to mean one of hacking in a broader sense, and not strictly applied to coding.

I believe that a hacker-centric culture is one that promotes innovation and is purely meritocratic, with a constant drive to improve and better absolutely _everything_.

So from my (very much outsider) perspective, Apple would definitely have a hacker culture, but it's not just about the code.

<comment><USER6> Loosening the definition of hacker culture to "successful companies promote innovation and grade on merit", then yes, I agree. However, at that point, you can also claim the Toyota, earlier days of GE, and Walmart have hacker cultures, and I don't think that's true at all.

You can broaden pg's statement so it's never false, but that strips it of its interest and utility.

<comment><USER5> I think you're absolutely right: if you take it to mean anything, then it has no meaning.

However, as mechanical_fish touches on below, the definition of what a 'hacker' is (I think) is pretty misunderstood. Hacking is a creative process; are we trying to define creative people/roles/cultures merely by the tools that they use? That sort of limited scope feels extremely hubristic.

So maybe I didnt clearly express my point, and used bad examples: I'll accept that. The article seems to believe that Hacking = coding, and thus Hacking Culture = coding culture, which I think is a pretty limited way to look at things. Hacker culture is all about rejecting restrictive and unnecessary bureaucracy and procedures, and instead focussing on giving people the freedom and tools necessary to perform better and in a more creative way. Which I dont think really applies to your examples. A lot of places that claim innovation and free thinking still do so within a pretty rigid set of rules.

<comment><USER7> I don't think anyone can agree on what hacking is, so discussing it is pointless, as is this article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Ebay is another interesting counterpoint to PG's essay. They are a company constantly made fun of in the tech community as monopolistic, unoriginal/innovative, without visionary guidance, but somehow they are more profitable than Amazon. Hackers are critical in many businesses, In Yahoo's case they need them to stay on top of changes to media, but if you can get significant network lock in like eBay then hackers may not be as important in the medium term. In the long term I think they'll face disruption in much the same way a company like AirBNB disrupted Craigslist which has a similar profile to eBay.

<comment><USER9> I have a suspicion that eBay are Altavista to some other company's Google. I don't know which company that will be, but surely it's possible to be 10 times better than eBay and overcome the network effects.

(Plus I did some consulting for eBay and saw first hand how ineffective and stupid their management are)

<comment><USER10> eBay is the beneficiary of an intense network effect that Altavista and Google search never could be.

Until the newer management, the Bain & Company mafia that e.g. don't understand or want the traditional eBay sellers, screw things up enough, it's likely to keep its position despite how horrible it is on so many levels.

Check out Gunbroker.com for a pretty big auction site that indeed does things "10 times better"; it started up shortly after eBay wimped out and banned gun and gun accessory etc. sales, so it benefits from the same sort of network effects. Having used both, there's absolutely no comparison.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think the argument applies to the internal culture of the company, not how they behave externally.

<comment><USER12> I also think the OP has an awfully limited definition of _hacker_. I'm not allowed to have a sense of theater? I'm not allowed to also be a designer?

<comment><USER13> Steve prefers artists and artisans. Artists can hack and code, but there is a different worldview.

<comment><USER12> I'm with PG: The distinction between an artist and a hacker is thin to the point of nonexistence.

Don't be fooled by the fact that, say, emacs isn't pretty to look at: Even emacs is a work of art. It isn't just a utilitarian tool for typing stuff, it certainly wasn't designed just to make money, and it is opinionated software that makes a statement, at every level from the implementation language to the architecture to the workflow to the license.

A lot of hacking is _performance_ art. Think: _why the lucky stiff. Think: Zed Shaw.

<comment><USER13> True. I guess I meant programmers.

programmers : hackers :: designers : artists.

The difference between an artist and a designer is that the designer is incapable of using ugliness to express a truth. (Also, money.)

I like to liken programmers to poets, but only because of the volume of bad meter and code humanity has produced.

<comment><USER14> Being a designer by trade and programmer by accident, I've always found this funny. That programmers have no problem having their work being compared to poetry or art in general. Designers, on the other hand, get enraged on the sole mention that design is an art or --worse-- a craft.

<comment><USER13> Heh, I'm actually a designer as well, and a printmaker who was vetted for the tamarind institute a while ago. Designers don't want to be boxed into the art world, as modern art is strictly solipsistic, and attempts to make a statement in and of itself and it's context. Design attempts to amplify a statement, to add value, clarify and guide. Saying design is art and craft is like saying engineering is intuition and emotion. There are a shade of in both, but it's missing the point.

Programming on the other hand, is not a strictly visual field which helps any analogy, and while the product is engineering, the act of _is_ comparable to an art. There's no such thing as perfect code, and the hacky little stuff is analogous to the troubled motion's of Jackson Pollck's arms struggling against the constraints of physics to make a statement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hacking is about coming up with creative solutions to problems, not being open. By this definition, Apple has a very hacker centric culture. Being open lowers the barrier of entry to hacking but it isn't a prerequisite.

<comment><USER16> What I am not sure is that the word 'hacker' is a useful word. There were other words widely used before the word hacker appeared: 'smart people', 'creative people', 'artists', 'scientists', 'mathematicians', 'engineers', 'polymaths' etc...

The word 'hacker' is a feel-good word for us programmers: we feel that we are more than just programmers, we are some kind of 'polymaths'. But the truth is that so are other smart people: noone should think that a very smart mathematicin, phyiscists, other engineers cannot be good in other disciplines. (And engineers especially were always a bit polymaths, because ergonomy, technical difficulties and business considerations always were there paralelly.) As it is with every successful essayists, pg's essays have some feel-good values. As I grow older I no more like the feel-good component of essays. I am not a hcker, I am an engineer, and I was that ever. This does not mean that I have to be totally idiot in every other disciplines, but being good at something requires lots of practice. People are called engineers because they practiced engineering a lot, people are called mathematicians because they practiced mathematics a lot, etc... If somebody could be called a 'hacker' it is the caliber of somebody like von Neumann, but even him we call just a 'mathematician' (and we call Einstein 'just' a physicist). Why previous generations did not need the word 'hacker'? Why we suddenly need this word for no other reasons of feeling good?

<comment><USER17> What's wrong with feeling good? I, for one, like feeling good.

And the reason previous generations didn't need the word "hacker" is simply because computers hadn't been invented yet. But computing is hardly the first field with this kind of verbal distinction. What's the difference between a reporter and a journalist? Or a painter and an artist? Or an actor and a star?

<comment><USER16> I think programmers are special kind of engineers. We could call them software engineers. My feeling is that the word 'hacker' is invented to state that hackers are somehow more than engineers. As if engineers were dumb people without creativity, who can only follow predefined processes. As if there were no engineer geniuses. As if engineers could not be enthusiast and as if sometimes engineering could not be treated as art the same way programming can be. 'Hacker' is a romantic word some people use to describe _themselves_, not a word society describes these people. In my opinion this wording is not really necessary. There were/are/will-be bad/good/exceptionally-good engineers in history of mankind. I just have a feeling that 200 years later the word 'hacker' will be forgotten but the word engineer will still live. (This is just my feeling.)

<comment><USER18> Thank you. I have trouble understanding how this is even an argument. Maybe the word hacker will still be around, maybe not. Being creative, academically informed, and practically skilled will always be around.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I disagree wholeheartedly with his analysis. Yes, Apple is more closed. But…you can do a lot with OS X, other than the window manager and desktop system.

I rooted my iPhone. Just like a lot of people.

I script everything.

I don't run the apple versions of openssh or openssl or a bunch of other things, all just done with the ordering of folders in my path.

Almost everything I want to do on Linux, I can do on OS X. And the things that I can't aren't GUI-based, so ssh works fine.

It's worth having to run another computer (or a virtual machine) to run some OSX/Windows-only apps. And it's not worth running windows.

The hacker culture is alive and well on OS X, and I don't see Apple as doing anything to stop it…you just have to learn a bit more…in a lot of cases, that's not even necessary.

But, I guess that fits…because it's all about user experience instead of coding the actual OS.

</comment><comment><USER20> > "in the software business, you can't afford not to have a hacker-centric > culture" can be contradicted with a single word. Apple.

Since when is Apple a software company? They make consumer hardware, and the bare minimum of software needed to make this hardware deliver the value users expect. That's why OS X isn't supported on other hardware than Apples own. That's why you need iTunes to interact with your i{Pod/Pad/Phone}, rather than exposing a standard interface.

To Apple, like Yahoo, programming is little more than a commodity.

<comment><USER21> OS X and iOS sell Apple hardware.

How many people would really buy Macbooks with Vista installed? How many people would really buy iPhones with Symbian installed?

Yes, Apple's income technically comes mostly from hardware, but all that would dry up without their software.

<comment><USER22> Honestly, if I needed a Windows notebook, I'd still be pretty tempted to go with Apple hardware. Conversely, I'd be loath to carry around a Dell or HP box, even with Mac OS X installed. Apple's hardware is a positive competitive advantage, not just a lock-in scheme for them to extort more money for their software.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I love my Mac, IPhone etc. but Apple is not the be all end all of success stories. They have one culture, Google has another (more hacker-centric), and other successful companies have even more of a hacker culture.

Apple is a hardware company first, software second, with web services a distant third. So one could also argue that Apple's top down, less hacker, culture has produced some mediocre web services compared to Google and even Yahoo.

</comment><comment><USER24> I disagree, steve is defiantly a hacker in the wider sense of the word. Especially since him and the other steve was so much into phone phreaking in there youth.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think PG's definition of The Hacker Culture is not quite the same as ESR's definition.

ESR's definition falls more in the kernel and system tools end of hackerdom, where the only users are other hackers.

PG's definition extends to products and applications and generally stuff where the users are not necessarily hackers.

By ESR's definition, Apple is not hackerly at all. By PG's definition, they _are_ very hackerly.

</comment><comment><USER26> This is probably off-topic but I'd never heard of Inventables (<http://www.inventables.com>, referenced in the article) before. I'm having a geekgasm just browsing through the weird and wonderful articles on there. Love the mini-faq below each one. This is going to make me blow so much money...

</comment><comment><USER27> Apple is externally antihacker, but internally they prefer hacker type programmers, not mediocre code monkeys who don't actually get things done. They want people to solve interesting problems as well. They just need to be prepared to have Jobs tell them it sucks and to do it differently.

<comment><USER28> Right, and their anti-hacker public position is relatively new. Mac OS X has always been hacker friendly; you don't need to tweak it to have a good experience, but Apple never tried to stop you if you wanted to. It's only with iOS that they've called their customers criminals for trying to gain control of their own hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if that shift ends up affecting their recruiting ability.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I think you are forgetting that apple started out as the very epitome of hacker culture (dudes in a garage soldering shit together while listening to rush and eating their parents food) - where they are now is a direct result of their initial launch trajectory.

</comment><comment><USER30> There are tons of successful hacker driven companies. There's only one Apple. It is interesting how author still uses a sole outlier as a counterpoint. I guess love is blind :)

(Also, there that was Wozniak guy _hint_ _hint_ )

<comment><USER31> there are tons of non-hacker driven successful companies too. In fact the majority of them.

<comment><USER22> But how many of them are tech companies? You don't need a hacker culture to drill oil or make breakfast cereal.

<comment><USER30> I thought the article discussed tech companies..

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> it actually depends on the phase of the tech in question. apple is capitalising on a period of consolidation of the cool tech that had been created at an astonishing rate. you could say that a lot of innovation was done by hackers, but consolidation of that tech in the market place was done by marketing gurus such as steve jobs. a company which gains its competitive advantage through constant innovation needs a hacker-centric culture. a company which simply consolidates on existing tech does not.

</comment><comment><USER33> If you don't consider the iPod and iPhone radically hacking up their markets, he has a point.

It is not all-is-acceptable hacking. Jobs, nonetheless, is hacking and innovating.

</comment><comment><USER34> Congrats on completely misunderstanding his essay, and confusing the consumer with the developer.

</comment><comment><USER35> That would actually matter if Apple had good products. At least I can't stand the nazi experience that OS X is (i own a macbook, my first and last Apple product, now running Archlinux).

<comment><USER36> You sound really mad about something! If only you said what it was.

<comment><USER35> My bad choice when purchasing a laptop.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> _Hackers love to experiment in public._

<http://www.apple.com/ipad/>

</comment><comment><USER38> Apple is a hardware company.

<comment><USER39> Apple is a product company. Those products are a combination of hardware and software. This is absolutely key to understanding their success.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> TL,DR: Paul Graham? NO! Steve Jobs!

<comment><USER41> I usually don't approve of laconic 4chan memes on Hacker News, but this one actually seems like a pretty fair summary of the article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I like your essay, but you're way off-base in your latest analysis of Paul Graham's essay. Your conclusion that 'Paul Graham's wrong on the value of a hacker culture (sadly)' can be contradicted with a single word. Software.

You make a great argument, but Apple is not in the software business.

<comment><USER39> This distinction between being in the "hardware business" or the "software business" is what much of the rest of the industry follows and, as a result, has allowed Apple many of its inroads in the last decade. People want and buy _products_ , and good high-tech products are a result of good software running on good hardware.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> This article doesn't really disprove PG's point. Remember that Steve Wozniak was an incredible hacker. Sure, Apple has since turned into a locked-down technological empire, but that is probably largely due to Steve Jobs' business savvy, and willingness to give up any hacker culture to make money. But the company was started by one of the most famous hackers of all, and you can bet he had an influence on the culture.</comment>


Input-Agreement: A New Mechanism for Collecting Data Using Human Computation Games - <AUTHOR> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~elaw/papers/tagatune.pdf

<comment><AUTHOR> The output-agreement used in the ESP game doesn't work all that well for tagging music. Input-agreement is better.</comment>


Adam West, Who Played Batman, Dies at 88 - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/10/arts/sad-day-for-gotham-adam-west-who-played-batman-dies-at-88.html <comment><USER2> In case you're wondering, this was submitted about 4 hours ago, shot to number 1 on the front page, got flagged to death, was vouched for, but never saw the light of day again. It's here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14527753](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14527753)

I'd love to see the story hit the front page again.

It's also here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14528447](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14528447)

And here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14528551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14528551)</comment>


RIM now working on only one BlackBerry 10 smartphone; Colt, Milan cancelled - <AUTHOR> http://www.bgr.com/2012/01/05/rim-now-working-on-only-one-blackberry-10-smartphone-colt-milan-cancelled/

<comment><USER2> Good. Given RIM's position, it made no sense for them to spread their talent and energy across _three_ devices. That's a recipe for three mediocre devices.</comment>


The Haarp Project Explained Simply - <AUTHOR> https://www.rtl-sdr.com/the-haarp-project-explained-simply/ <comment><USER2> Direct link to video the article is about: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WdLV3YRMvw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WdLV3YRMvw)

Curious Droid is an incredible channel. Highly recommend checking him out if you have even a mild interest in aerospace tech.

He explains things clearly and concisely and doesn't try to become a cult of personality like many other YouTubers. Just a wealth of well-explained interesting information.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, Curious Droid is a nice channel. I really enjoyed this video on SLAM: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHONQAMV48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHONQAMV48)

What an insane idea that was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The part I worked on was monitoring the effects of the sun on satellite communication (disruption of the ionosphere - called scintillation).

This was about a decade ago, but I used an FPGA and GNU Radio which was really quite cool! Especially as a post-sophomore intern.

</comment><comment><USER5> I thought this was going to be about the HARP Project: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP)

</comment><comment><USER6> I love curious droid and his sweet shirts.</comment>


New era beckons for supersonic air travel - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/11/new-era-supersonic-air-travel-concorde <comment><USER2> "Taking off from a conventional runway, Concorde-2 would climb vertically into the air like a space rocket."

Wow! There's no way you'll be allowed handheld devices or a book when that happens. Drop it and someone 30 feet under you might get knocked unconscious. (Or each person gets a personal cabin.)

"US patent for an extraordinary concept aircraft"

Oh, one of those many odd-ball ideas that will never happen.</comment>