Microsoft has removed the "use offline account" option when installing Windows - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/daim1y/ms_has_removed_the_use_offline_account_option/ <comment><USER2> This is incredibly bad.

In general I have a positive opinion about what MS is doing lately, but Windows is a glaring exception, it's getting worse and worse at an alarming rate.

In the last two months we had two consecutive updates that broke basic functionality for users who disabled web results in Windows Search (which is a very common setting among those who care about privacy) [https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-1903-microsoft- deta...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-1903-microsoft-details- search-fix-as-new-update-bug-hits/)

Now, MS is trying to force upon customers this cloud login garbage, which is obviously not acceptable if you are privacy conscious.

I build my own PCs and have spent hundreds of dollars in Windows 10 retail licenses, I pay for the service so I don't want to be the product.

I've always assumed that I'm locked into using Windows but after all this crap I'm starting to look into alternatives even though they'v got shortcomings on their own.

(Edit: replaced Amp link with real link, sorry I didn't realise it was Amp)

<comment><USER3> They didn't removed it. The title is misleading, The button is still there, but they renamed the button. It's under "Domain Join Instead" [https://i.imgur.com/tA9fo1R.png](https://i.imgur.com/tA9fo1R.png) And there you can create an offline account: [https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png](https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png)

<comment><USER2> I didn't feel the need to specify that in my comment because the linked Reddit thread already explains it, it's the top upvoted comment, you can see it just below the initial post. When I said "this is incredibly bad" I was referring to the dark pattern, I wasn't trying to suggest that the option had been completely removed.

<comment><USER3> To what i see, the top upvoted comment is at the third position behind a lot of subcomments, because of the "hot" ranking of reddit. By reading the discussions here, i don't think that a lot of people realised that the option is still there.

<comment><USER4> They're forcing people to online accounts by putting the offline option in the basement, it's the standard 'nudge' in software. Eventually they'll eliminate it completely.

Some would consider this one a dark pattern, I would agree in this case.

<comment><USER5> Except maybe in a "home edition" that can't eliminate it completely. Businesses will flip their shit if employees needed an MS account.

It would mean the death of Windows.

<comment><USER6> > Businesses will flip their shit if employees needed an MS account.

Not necessarily. Remember that Windows is an Azure product now. They want employees in the cloud paying for Office 365 anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> ...and from what I can tell, their online account security is craptastic.

Here's a true story that happened to my family. My son is the only person in the house who uses Windows. For his game machine. He set up a Microsoft online account. It got hacked - someone set up a fake family and managed to get my son's account listed under it as a child. As a consequence, he couldn't install any new software. I'm not sure what the point of this particular hack is, but that was the result.

So we called Microsoft customer service. It turns out that there is no way to get an account removed from a family once it's listed there. The Windows rep we talked to had a recourse, though. He proposed that we, the three of us, attempt to reverse-hack the fake "dad"'s account over the phone by trying to guess his password. I had to explain to the gentleman that, even though we were within our moral rights to do this, a) it was almost certainly illegal, and b) doomed to failure.

He didn't understand the issue. Eventually we had to agree to disagree, and hang up on him. We never got my son's account back. We wiped his computer and installed Windows via "use offline account". I'm glad this was last year and not today, I guess?

<comment><USER8> > ...and from what I can tell, their online account security is craptastic.

I'm not convinced that their _offline_ security is good, either.

I sometimes will pick up my Surface Pro 4 and disconnect it from the charger. Disconnecting from the charger usually (but not always...not sure what determines it) wakes it. It then turns on their equivalent of Apple's Face ID, and tries to log in.

Sometimes I don't actually want that yet, as I just picked it up to take it somewhere else. So I'll hit the power button to put it back to sleep. The screen blanks...and then sometimes it quickly comes back, logged in.

The thing is I've sometimes had it do this when I've been careful to have my face out of view, holding it so I can only barely see the screen around the edge to see if disconnecting power will wake it up and I'll need to hit power to put it back to sleep.

This doesn't happen all the time, but it has happened several times, leading me to wonder if there is some sort of glitch if you interrupt a face-based login attempt at just the right time via the power button causing it to think it logged in.

Anyone else seen this?

<comment><USER9> Face logon takes some seconds to initialize, and if you interrupt it it gets confused. But the solution to your issue is to have the type cover closed when you unplug it.

<comment><USER10> That is hardly a solution to a security issue. I can't ensure the burglar keeps the cover closed

<comment><USER11> The burglar won't have your face?

<comment><USER12> I'm a sensitive location.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are connected to the internet. Either run the setup without being connected to the internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give you the prompt to create a local account."

<comment><USER14> That's a pretty clear dark pattern, no?

At the very least, it signals that Microsoft really doesn't want users creating offline accounts. Which is troubling, because their TOS for online accounts is quite onerous, and includes a couple of problematic restrictions, including a mandatory arbitration agreement.

If I was a Windows user who relied on local accounts this would be very worrying to me.

<comment><USER15> It's most definitely a dark pattern.

Just how reddit now prompts you to enter an email when you register but it's not marked as required and it doesn't say optional either.

<comment><USER16> To be fair, it's really unusual that they even let you get an account without an email — I believe they're still one of the only major sites left that allow this at all.

<comment><USER17> Not unusual when you consider this fact: when reddit was originally founded back in '05, the ability to create an anonymous account with a pseudonym in _seconds_ was the goal. The redesign is a shame, but I'm glad they chose to stick with their old UI via a decicated URL (old.reddit.com).

<comment><USER18> Well, yeah, another thing ruined by spammers

(And the redesign is truly a shame)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Microsoft is clearly taking moves that enable "PC as a service".

I imagine the end game is something like you pay Microsoft so much a month on a subscription, receive hardware that is preconfigured with and tied to your Microsoft account details or your company's Azure AD configuration and locked down with InTune, unhackable with properly implemented Class 3+ UEFI and Secure Boot, etc. You then purchase additional software subscriptions, such as your Photoshop, etc., through the Microsoft store, with Microsoft taking a cut like Apple.

If your computer breaks, pay the $50 or $100 insurance and receive a new one from Microsoft, if it's not folded into your monthly "Microsoft Technology Subscription."

So when Microsoft completes its takeover of the PC, what's the platform and OEM landscape going to look like? This endgame clearly puts companies like Dell, HP, Asus, etc. and the companies that provide parts like Intel, AMD in a subordinate position to Microsoft. They probably won't like that.

Will they give up? Will they try to start to make hardware for Apple? Will these companies embrace Linux and provide a third way?

<comment><USER20> Deal is, big corps want it. Everything as a service. Easy to write off. Easy to ramp up and down as needed.

<comment><USER21> Do they though? My friends that work IT in corporate settings seem to tear their hair out every time MS (or _anyone_ ) tries to auto-push an update that they haven't had a chance to rigorously test for compatibility and security with their existing stuff. Some of them have fiduciary responsibility to _not_ add/change/upgrade software without carefully testing it first. That doesn't seem compatible with the trajectory Windows is now on (and that Apple has been on for some time).

<comment><USER22> > Some of them have fiduciary responsibility to not add/change/upgrade > software without carefully testing it first.

While that makes a lot of sense will it remain a requirement if/when it's simply not a choice with any major vendor?

Can smaller vendors still provide that choice and meet all the necessary certificates that such industries often also require?

(Serious question, not trolling.)

<comment><USER23> There is WSUS. Group Policy is a very powerful tool. Get control of your updates!

<comment><USER24> This is one of the things that disgust me about dealing with Windows.

Oh, you want to properly administrate your Windows? You can't unless you buy another Windows! But a more expensive one!

You are unable to wade through our byzantine licensing maze? Buy another Windows to manage that!

Expensive Microsoft solutions for problems _created_ by Microsoft. And then there's this entire army of sods that think this is the best thing since sliced bread, telling you "Isn't it fantastic that Microsoft provides this wonderful solution?"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> As someone who uses Windows for industrial PCs, I'm pretty appalled.

We've been hanging on to Windows 7, including side-loading drivers into the installation image for modern hardware, because this kind of stuff that Windows 10 does is in these cases simply unacceptable (random tip: Go for AMD, their Windows 7 support is _way_ better than Intel, _do not_ use Intel chipset series 300).

I can't have PCs bogged down downloading updates or randomly restarting when they're controlling endurance test rigs designed to run 24/7.

Driver issues with Linux, no real vendor support and (believe it or not) stability was the reason Windows prevailed in these applications. And MS threw that all out the window.

Oh well, I'd get paid to rewrite the control software in Linux, I'm not really complaining, I just hope there's enough driver support (looking at you, National Instruments...).

<comment><USER26> Why are you using a consumer level OS/setup for this?

PC's setup in a corporate environment are tightly controlled, even with Windows 10.

<comment><USER27> Windows is pretty common for control systems in factories. One factory I worked in used a web application, the one I'm in now uses VB applications. One of the control systems I use is running Windows2K. These computers have Internet access too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I understand correcting the title to be more accurate to the situation, but I think the discussion should be focused on how Microsoft is taking power away from users, and has business incentive to do so. I don't like that the greater tech community rallies behind Microsoft for doing some basic contributions to open source and then hand waves away moves like this.

Edit: the comment section has shifted and I'm less disappointed.

<comment><USER29> Open source contributions for Microsoft are just like charities for big corporations with despicable practices. They can use it to say "hey we are not that bad, after all we support FOSS!"

<comment><USER30> MS has been open-sourcing a lot of stuff in the past few years, which I see more as meaning that their IP has little intrinsic value anymore. MS used to sell software, so code was sacred and not meant for others to see; now it's more about services, so code doesn't really matter much anymore, and if it's code that can help people use their services, open-sourcing makes sense.

You can see this with Google, Facebook, and all the others which release huge amounts of FOSS; they are not in the business of selling software either.

<comment><USER31> Yes! This shift of business was somehow perceived by the public as the win of open source, but has actually amazingly been an actual loss on the control that you have with the money that you spend.

<comment><USER32> Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. People have short memories of Microsoft practices and for some reason have "drunk the kool-aid". Ballmer was better because his tactics were not "sleazy", they were straight and clear.

This new exec team is sleazy and trying to give a "good face" when the reality is that they are as bad as they have always been. But people get flashed with the new & shiny open source crumbs that are given.

<comment><USER33> How are Microsoft bad? The topic is about a change Microsoft made to benefit their online services. This isn't a great development by any stretch, for sure. And yet when compared with companies that collect and traffic in personal data Microsoft is in my opinion relatively(!) benign.

<comment><USER34> Comparing them to Google/facebook and saying they are benign misses the point. They are not using your data for there non-existing web ad-network but they are sending you ads directly through your operating system. You are safe on that front but losing control quickly.

They are funneling you into their cloud services. They are changing purchase models into subscription models. They own your operating system and can do what they want with it including kicking you off. And they also partner with law enforcement freely. Where thoses boundaries start/stop who knows but there does seem to be more underaged porn arrests with a single image found. Didn't microsoft develop some image detection that the police use? Perhaps scans are happening locally.

Facebook will polute your feed with personal ads. Google will polute the web with personal ads But microsoft will destroy your life.

Not sure who's better but why do we trust large brands?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I've switched to Linux + Mint in part because I don't want to be using Windows any more. Many of my games work with Steam on Linux now, actually. With Google's docs/drive, everything works cross platform. I really have no productivity loss by not using Windows any more.

<comment><USER32> > With Google's docs/drive, everything works cross platform

What do you use instead of Google Backup and Sync client? I haven't found something that works like that. The "best" thing I've found is the FUSE Ocaml filesystem ([https://github.com/astrada/google-drive- ocamlfuse](https://github.com/astrada/google-drive-ocamlfuse)) but still it is a "mounted" over network filesystem and not a sync-on-change solution. I tried InSync but could not make it work and it is not free, and also the Gnome "mount Google Drive" option, but it is also a "mounted" over network solution.

Other than that and some of the rough edges (random bluetooth issues, random issues after updating, completely broken Android ADB support), I like Linux Mint a lot. I do all my work and play (CS:GO, NFS, Cities Skylines, Hitman) on it, even for games that are not supported by default.

<comment><USER36> What about Dropbox? Also Nextcloud

<comment><USER37> Dropbox runs on linux but they are missing a lot of features and it only works on unencrypted ext4 fs. They are slowly dropping support I would say.

<comment><USER38> Dropbox recently updated the Linux FS limitations. See [https://help.dropbox.com/installs- integrations/desktop/syste...](https://help.dropbox.com/installs- integrations/desktop/system-requirements#linux)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I don't understand why so many people on HN praise Satya Nadella. I guess good PR is worth much more than actions.

Before Nadella, Windows wasn't nearly as user-hostile as it is now. There was no mandatory telemetry, there were no forced updates, end users weren't treated as betatesters and QA wasn't non-existent. And now they are taking away the ability to use Windows without Microsoft Account.

Of course there are also many other problems with Windows 10, like the UWP fiasco, but they're minor in comparison to what Microsoft is doing with user's freedom and privacy.

I always preferred Windows to Unixes, but at this point I think it's time to give up and switch to some Linux distribution. It's clear that the situation will only get worse.

<comment><USER40> Most people on HN, I would postulate, don't use Windows. We might use VS Code, we might use Azure, but we aren't using Microsoft's operating system.

<comment><USER41> Windows remains the most convenient OS for video games, and given HN's userbase (mostly young men), I think a lot of people here use Windows.

<comment><USER42> Windows is also the arguably the domain of GPU related dev. I see lots of Razer laptops. They are small and same weight as a MBP but you can get a 2080 RTX (previously 1060 GTX). Even the newest MBA's GPU is not 1/2 as fast as the 3 year old Razer (and its peers)

<comment><USER43> That's right. We use Surface Book with NVIDIA for our laptops and Thinkmate / Supermicro PCs. All with NVIDIA. Our Hollywood clients need NVIDIA for video rendering and we write software in CUDA/C++.

Windows 10 really does work great. Seriously!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Meanwhile, the Linux world is wasting its biggest opportunity to take over the desktop space.

IMO, Unintuitive interfaces (e.g. Gnome shell), forced package management (as opposed to decentralized distribution of apps) and lack of care for graphic design are the biggest things keeping the masses away from the Linux desktop, because in other areas (speed, robustness, privacy, control) it just blows Windows out of the water.

All of these are highly controversial opinions, many Linux advocates think they are not problems, but I think they really are.

<comment><USER45> As a long time Windows user, I switched from Windows to XFCE (Manjaro) and it was pretty seamless. Most of the keyboard shortcuts are the same (or, easily configurable to be the same). I had to hunt down one xdotools script and bind a shortcut for moving windows from one display to another for it to work the same.

There are many things that XFCE does even better or just as good. Window snapping works great. The start menu is back-to-basics simple and fast. Searching in it doesn't search the internet or my whole hard drive by default and it just works and finds things faster. The taskbar is also better IMO because it has way more useful options (such as middle-clicking) and less anti-features. On Windows, I have to use some unsupported 3rd-party thing called 7+ taskbar tweaker to add the same features and remove some anti- features. I am a minimalist and I loved the classic taskbar. I hated some new Windows behaviors like "preview window-content on hover over taskbar item", jump lists and grouped taskbar items - some of which you just couldn't turn off in Windows without that 3rd-party tool. So, after years of fighting against that I figured if I have to hack my DE, I might as well run the one that's free and gives _me_ all the power. ( _I also have to modify macOS to make it even bearable to use...way more than Windows even, with third party hacks. And Apple certainly gives you less control than Microsoft, so I 'm definitely not using that!_)

Some things I'm missing on any Linux DE though: GPU acceleration in Chrome. Games.

However, I'm now even doing Microsoft-specific work with dotnet core, VS Code, SQL Server and Azure Data Studio on my Manjaro workstation. For work, I don't really need Windows anymore unless someone gives me some Windows-specific thing to work on, for which I have one machine on standby to do.

Overall, I like how much control I have in Linux. However, Windows _is still more stable_ than any Linux desktop in my experience. For instance, I've lost desktop settings/icons a crash after an update. Wifi stopped working after an update once. But things are/were easy to remedy so I'm staying.

<comment><USER46> Wanted to thank for the post, it finally triggered me to ditch Windows on my laptop. But it seems that Xubuntu would be a better choice for dotnet core development: there is an official 3.0 SDK for Ubuntu while Arch is not officially supported, and no one has built the 3.0 SDK for it yet.

I also read some description of the state on Reddit ([https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/cx64r5/the_state...](https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/cx64r5/the_state_of_net_core_on_arch/)), and it seems that there are too many hoops to jump on Manjaro.

<comment><USER45> You know what? Reading _your_ post has now made me want to convert another machine, that I have sitting right here, to use Xubuntu because Ubuntu does seem to have much more official support for things, plus I'd really like to compare it to Manjaro and finally many of our servers are running Ubuntu so it will be nice to get a deeper familiarity with it.

I was just this minute looking at .NET Core 3.0 as well because I had such a good experience with 2.2 on a recent job. Your comment actually alerted me to the fact that I can't get it yet :)

I was off of .NET for years doing mainly Node.js/Angular/React and I'm kind of excited to be getting back into .NET - I'm so glad my 15 years of .NET experience won't go to waste because ASP.NET has been looking very good in web server benchmarks. Plus, C# and .NET are much nicer to work with than JS/TS and Node IMO. Everything is just cleaner.

Anyway - good luck and I hope you have a lot of fun on your Linux desktop adventure. One of my favorite things about the switch over the past year has been the fun of being a sort of hobbyist again, exploring and figuring things out. At this point, I have setup 4 different desktops and I even got advanced touch gestures working on my cheap Acer E5-575g laptop. Can't wait to setup Xubuntu next! So, thanks to you as well!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> This seems like it is preparatory to removing it entirely.

It wouldn't be shocking if in 10 years you need a Microsoft account to use windows on a computer you don't have root access to that isn't allowed to run a non ms os or to distribute software that ms gets a 30% cut.

If it isn't so it will be because they don't think they can get away with it.

<comment><USER48> > to use windows on a computer you don't have root access to that isn't > allowed to run a non ms os or to distribute software that ms gets a 30% cut.

That's basically how the SurfaceRT worked, isn't it? So they've already attempted this once.

<comment><USER49> That's what Windows S mode is [https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/windows/s-mode](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/s-mode)

<comment><USER50> Well, that's worrisome.

<comment><USER51> Well, they have to compete with ChromeOS, I guess... Currently they allow you to exit S mode to a normal Home edition.

<comment><USER52> Currently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> This is problematic even for people who don't mind linking to an online Microsoft account (I'm one of them). There is a long-standing Windows bug where local user directory names are created using a truncated version of the online account's name. This is rarely what you want. The work-around has long been to create an offline account first to name your own local directory, then convert it to an online account.

This will break that work-around, and this is universally bad.

<comment><USER54> I've just resigned myself to the fact that the last letter of name is cut off. Seems super silly since it's capable of showing the full name everywhere else.

Maybe some MS dev hasn't cottoned on to the string count starts at [0] lol

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Used to be that you shouldn't install Windows online to prevent getting exploited by malware before you had a chance to patch.

Now it looks like one has to install offline to prevent getting adware and all kinds of other things, what amazing progress.

As somebody still stuck on Win7 I'm dreading the change, sadly Linux is not really an option because I like my PC gaming.

Any good resources on what to look out for when installing Win10, what to turn off and when to stay offline when setting what things up? I keep seeing/picking up small tips all over the place, but I have yet to find something comprehensive.

<comment><USER56> > sadly Linux is not really an option because I like my PC gaming.

This is changing and very quickly with Valve Proton. I would advise you try your gaming collection in Steam on Linux. It is getting to the point where one can purchase a game and it will likely just work, with the exception of a few DRM nasties.

<comment><USER57> It really depends on your video game tastes, I think. There are now essentially three types of games which I enjoy playing:

1) Indie games;

2) Big studio releases (some of them);

3) Competitive online 3D shooters.

My experience is that 1) usually work well on Linux and the small studios these days usually make sure it works on Mac and Linux, which is great.

I do not know of any games in the 2) category that really do work on Linux (Activision, Ubisoft and EA simply don't care) and this actually impacts me in 3) -- unless I want to play a 7 year old CS:GO, I am out of luck on Linux.

(Just to be clear, I am saying this as a person that has Linux at work & on my laptop and who would really love to get rid of my Win 10 on my gaming desktop PC. For gaming lovers with different tastes, I think the situation actually is not that bad if you are willing to have a console at home -- you can cover 1) and 2) this way, just not 3).)

<comment> ah- Most of 1) and 2) works, check [https://www.protondb.com/](https://www.protondb.com/)

If you're into those things 3) is an issue due to various anticheat systems that don't yet run great on wine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> I have long banned Windows 10 from my computers; I only use it in VMs now. If you desperately need Windows functionality for something but would rather use Linux, you may be in luck; there's quite a few options for GPU passthrough these days. If you're on a laptop you can even share your Intel GPU through GVT-g.

For me, I am lucky. Wine and Steam Proton run basically anything I'd care to run anymore. I use only Linux for work, as well.

I hope it's really worth it for them, because I've probably passed the last time I will ever consider running Windows until I'm in the ground, at this point. It's annoying, vexacious, constantly regressive, and almost literally never improves on this. From forcing you to have Candy Crush to switching your browser to Edge every update, Windows 10 is a piece of shit.

<comment><USER59> What's worse is win 10 is slower than win7 on hdd, due to superindexing and cortana, making me stick with win7 or ubuntu. Hope we'll get alternatives in the future.

They can just enable these functions on free version, and make enterprise version configurable.

I guess if they still keep this practice, the office will start to change to mac instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> As a happy Win8 user, that's exactly the reason why I switched from Win10 to Linux. Many offline functions need online to perform. It is sad.

<comment><USER61> I will stick with my windows 8.1 in my i5 third gen machine as late as possible, until either the support ends or the computer needs to be retired.

<comment><USER62> That seems like a strange place to take a stand, since the specific brand of user hostility that pervades Windows 10 seems to have seen its origin in Windows 8

<comment><USER61> Windows 8's windows update is always quick and doesn't interrupt your work for a long period. The only usability issue on it is the start screen, which can be fixed by installing the classic shell.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> The online account is crap. I converted my offline account recently to the online one, just to see what's the difference.

The difference is that I cannot even set a password, it asks me to set up a PIN number to log in. Of course you can set it to accept letters in your PIN, so it can function as a regular password.

But what the hell is the point?

(In fact, I didn't set any PIN the first time and at the next reboot I had to log in with my Microsoft account password, which is decidedly more complicated that the not-very-secure one I use to log in my PC. Thank god I have a password manager on my phone.)

<comment><USER64> I can't even get into my Microsoft account. When I go to reset it, Microsoft claims that there is insufficient information to reset and unlock the account. Meanwhile I can't log in to the account (because it's locked) and still receive notifications about the account (click here to unlock it)

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Every time a company does something like this, I remember that I spend more and more time On the Linux side of my Dual Boot, and almost none in Windows (save for some time plying Eve).

Having worked in large enterprises like this, I can also picture some small team, or loud individual with a super ego, pushing for this kind of stuff as if it is a good idea.

For every... say 20 PM/Product Manager/Lead/Devs that actually listen to customers and want to create great software, there's always Some Dunning Krueger clueless individual who pushes for stuff like this. Often they're the loudest in the room, while everyone else is suffering from imposter syndrome and afraid to speak up.

[soapbox off].

Sorry. My rant for the month.

</comment><comment><USER66> Seems like it's still there, just harder to access now.

The "best" sorted comment says:

> They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are > connected to the internet. Either run the setup without being connected to > the internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give > you the prompt to create a local account.

<comment><USER67> At this point they've crossed over from 'dark pattern' to 'black magic fuckery'.

<comment><USER68> There's no indication of magical behaviour, it's just unfriendly.

<comment><USER14> By magic, GP means that it's undiscoverable.

It's a crazy thing to say, "start the installer without a network connection and you'll suddenly get a new option in the installer." Or, "when the installer asks you for your email, keep spamming invalid responses until it gets frustrated and unlocks the ability to skip the prompt."

That doesn't sound like a sensible UX flow, or even a UX flow with consumer- unfriendly prompts and directions. It sounds like a video game cheat code or easter egg.

<comment><USER68> Ah. I interpreted it as meaning removing the option was magical. This seems like just an increase in the dark patterns that were already present around local accounts, not a qualitative difference. Microsoft has been pushing back against local accounts _hard_ in the setup process - you already had to carefully jump through hoops to make one.

Trying again without network access is actually one of the first things I'd try, but yes, it's undiscoverable for most people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> This isn't news. We're linking to someone complaining on reddit. Maybe an actual link would be more useful. And even this is from July.

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft- made-i...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-made-it- harder-to-create-windows-10-local-accounts.html)

<comment><USER70> It is worrying that this is one of the only two informed comments on the matter, and it's being buried down the thread.

On the other hand, I don't mind Microsoft getting some more crap thrown at, at all. Higher chance that their much eager marketing/PR team will take notice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> I help a friends dad with his computer sometimes. A few times per year, he brings it to me and says it's being slow. Every time, it's windows update bogging his machine down for weeks, since it can't seem to update on its own without crashing and causing issues. Last week it took over 5 hours to reinstall an update - several times longer than would be needed to install windows or Linux from scratch.

I might install cinnamon next time he brings it by

<comment><USER72> Perhaps install cinnamon in a VM like VirtualBox and let him roam over that first? See how he feels.

<comment><USER73> I've tried this with my dad. The problem is, he never boots up the bum to have a go. He doesn't really get how there can be more than one OS on his physical machine. So basically we are stuck in a cycle of him not wanting to switch until he's used to the "new" thing but him never using the new thing.

<comment><USER74> This is a bit hard to understand for young people, I know :-)

Older people have already spent so much time on learning new stuff that they feel spending even more time to learn something they already know how to do is a waste of time. I'm slowly moving into this category myself. Why do you have to redesign something that works just fine? Just because you want to get paid more is not ok reason.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> I just want them to let me pick my own god damned name for the home folder. I hate the weird shit they pick for me.

<comment><USER76> why do people still use windows? It's stupid and naive to ask that, but I keep wondering why devs aren't successful in getting changes made at their companies.

<comment><USER77> I use Windows because pretty much every program ever runs on Windows. Buy some weird device? Hey, it has drivers! Want to play the latest game? Hey, there's a Windows version! The same is simply not true of other platforms. The reality is that it's the most popular OS, so when someone can only write their computer program once, they do it for Windows. It sucks, but that's how it is.

I use Linux for pretty much all my work, though, preferring a Linux VM to a Windows-native setup. I have tried to make Powershell usable, but the console is terrible (and the replacements are equally bad) and the language itself isn't that amazing. (Their "curl" equivalent requires you to open IE once to activate some setting, for example.) I also hate putty. Never in the history of computing has a program made it so difficult to use the same font for every server you connect to, or to talk to something on a serial port, etc. The way Windows deals with serial ports and the like is so silly that I just have an RPi on my desk for interacting with USB devices... I ssh to that, and then don't deal with Windows anymore.

<comment><USER78> You may be interested in MobaXterm. Don't let the name fool you; it's a good SSH client for Windows. I spent 20 years or so hassling with PuTTY, and just discovered this a few months ago. More people should know about it. I still need pagent for git, and the like, but at least Moba solves the set-the- terminal-options-once-for-all-SSH-sessions problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> I really dislike this online-only trend. It feels like a step backwards in usability design. If anything, every app should strive to be offline-first.

Microsoft is turning everyone's PCs into internet nodes that collect data and stats. It's a way for them to get more social and behavioral data on their incredibly large market.

I sure miss Windows 7. Microsoft ruined things with Vista, which 7 fixed. They ruined 7 with 8 and 9, which 10 sort of fixed. They're ruining 10 by including all of these "modern" features like an AI assistant, and having an "account" on their backend.

</comment><comment><USER80> And what happens if the account get suspended (which Microsoft is known to occasionally randomly do)? You can't login into your own physical machine?

</comment><comment><USER81> I can't wait until ReactOS is out of beta: [https://reactos.org/](https://reactos.org/)

There needs to be an alternative to Windows out there that actually uses Windows apps and drivers. WINE in Linux is not good enough for me yet.

They just released a new version of ReactOS and I haven't checked it out yet. If it can run Google Chrome and run MS-Office and Visual Studio I might just switch to it.

</comment><comment><USER82> Everyone knows the saying "If you're not paying for it, you're the product, not the customer". Well, when companies I've paid good money to still go against my wishes, I just assume I'm still partially the product... meaning I'm not paying them enough and they've sought other sources of income (or have removed features to simplify the product and devote less human-hours to maintaining it to cut costs).

So what I'm saying is... Who out there is willing to make an OS at a $xxx/license price point that will just fucking do what I want? Any takers?

</comment><comment><USER83> At least it can sleep and resume reliably. I have a Linux laptop and desktop and work and both of them crash on either suspend or resume.

Actually, I installed the latest mainline kernel and managed to get my desktop to resume once, but the second resume locks up the whole system.

So now I just do a full power off every day when I leave.

The laptop is System 76 and comes with PopOS pre-installed and I still have issues whenever I have external monitors attached.

Linux as a daily driver is a frustrating experience, though I do really appreciate the customization (I love i3).

<comment><USER84> I had that problem with my Windows laptops too, especially the Precision 7245 I had! GRR I hated that laptop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> FTA

 _They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are connected to the internet._

So it's just a UI issue

<comment><USER86> This is more a dark pattern issue: user who's connected to the Internet during OOBE stage of installation will be forced to create or login with online account because it won't have other choice visible while the choice still exist but is simply hidden, because of MS "goals".

<comment><USER87> Can confirm. I was installing Win10 for a fried a few weeks ago and couldn't create a local account. After a couple minutes of search to no avail, I tried:

Just how is that supposed to work if I unplug the internet?

By letting you create a local account, of course.

<comment><USER86> Last time I had to reinstall, OOBE creator nagged me twice to go online when it couldn't detect network connection - it even show me Wifi page while my PC has an older motherboard that doesn't feature it. That was kinda... desperate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER88> It's funny how expectations being set differently can lead to such massively different reactions.

Chrome OS or Android devices require Google accounts? No problem.

Windows requires a Microsoft account? So angry!

I think there's also something to be said for the ubiquity and usefulness of these accounts outside of the OS setup. I don't really feel that I need a Microsoft account in my life and I can't say for certain whether I have one or not. I definitely have a Google account which I use many times per day.

<comment><USER89> You're confusing Android with Google Services?

<comment><USER88> When you buy most Android phones and want to use them in the way most people do, you're going to be dancing with Google Services.

<comment><USER89> Most people don't use offline accounts in Windows 10 either...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> I always tell peole to use offline accounts. Microsoft, in their eternal wisdom, sets your username to your first name when you do the on line account thing. If you're John or Chuck, it's fine, if you have non ascii characters in there, it's not. Some programs crash when saving to C:\Users\Yourname if Yourname contains non asci chars. Some even create a separate user folder with a broken encoding.

</comment><comment><USER3> I setuped a Windows VM today. It's still easy to do, but you need to know where it is, or to persist like me: clicking around then i found it behind "set up for organization" and "domain join instead".

</comment><comment><USER91> It's refreshing for me to read this thread. I've had the same issues, worries and irritations about Microsoft and Windows for a long time. I just never know how vocal I should be about them. I am surrounded by people who use Windows to write code, test software, manage, etc. every day, but they don't really seem to care or notice anything's wrong. This makes me anxious about sharing my concerns - what if they're just a personal illusion driven by some unconscious biases? My guess is I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Some might say that whining about these things is counterproductive. I disagree. I don't want Microsoft to fail. I don't want people to hate Microsoft. I want every company to make good products and expend its employees' efforts in a productive way. I believe filling out feedback forms is not the best way to go about trying to change the curremt state. I think that once enough people in our field know about those issues and voice their concerns, we can somehow push Microsoft back in the right direction. And even if that's a pipedream, our comments might help people forced to use Windows at work to go about it somewhat more securely and conveniently.

When it comes to my personal experience, I've recently had Windows: force me to update (gave me 20 minutes to save my work); install some software I don't need during the update and then prompt me to log in (namely, MS Teams); break bluetooth drivers (they work now but not as well as they used to); make the machine get stuck in the boot process (I had to reset it and pray no data was lost); change the wallpaper.

I just want to do my job. I don't need updates for that. I might need the security ones, but trying to install Teams on my machine and breaking other stuff in the process while all I need is Visual Studio and a working OS really grinds my gears.

EDIT: formatting, minor errors

</comment><comment><USER92> Someone cleverly pointed out that Windows changed from "My Computer" to "This PC" in recent years.

</comment><comment><USER93> Rant: I'm just using MS Win for the first time after 15 years of using Linux (most recently KDE/Plasma on Ubuntu) .. how does anyone not throw the thing out the window.

I have a surface pro with dock for extra screens. Every time you undock-redock you now have to rearrange your windows .. no workspaces? Does anyone at MS even use their stuff? Why would it not show a "docked view" and "undocked view" automatically?

As for the lack of "keep above", and nevermind "focus follows mouse but don't raise", ... argh.

You can install apps to fix these things (some AutoHotKey based, for example) but as a daily work tool it seems awfully deficient; and of course our IT people won't allow installs.

It doesn't seem feature complete for the basic task of window management.

</comment><comment><USER94> I don't get why people who have a choice keep taking this abuse. Stockholm Syndrome perhaps? I switched from Windows to Linux about 6 years ago and my computing experience went from having to deal with soul crushing bullshit every day, to feeling productive and in control of my environment again. Sure, there is the initial pain of having to learn a new environment and admittedly the GUI experience is a bit less polished, but jeez, how can any one take the inexorable, insidious, malevolent take over of their computing experience by this bullshit? Just bite the bullet, install Kubuntu on hardware known to work and move on. You will be in pain for about 2 weeks and happy from point on.

<comment><USER95> Specific games. That's the only reason I keep running Windows. Otherwise I would be on Linux full time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> Use an operating system which respects you as the owner of your computer, not as a commodity to be exploited.

<comment><USER97> I agree, but unfortunately, end-users just want to buy products that just work without fiddling around with settings, etc.

The HN audience and generally programmers are usually pro-Linux which makes sense, but they keep forgetting that apps like Office, Adobe, etc are only on Windows / Mac which Linux has to resort to fiddling with hacks like Wine which is not enough for an out-of-the-box experience with end-users.

The mindshare, user experience of Mac and Windows just prevents end-users from bothering to try, fiddle and learn Linux just to do serious work for anyone that is not a programmer these days.

<comment><USER96> Arguments like this also ignore the success of Chromebooks. The "average" person doesn't actually care about the things you listed. Some professionals might. But the average person isn't a photoshop user, and libreoffice works well enough. A default Ubuntu install doesn't require much if anything in the way of settings mungery, and I recall many a nightmare of getting drivers working on Windows back in the day.

<comment><USER97> > A default Ubuntu install doesn't require much if anything in the way of > settings mungery...

I don't think any user would be bothered in attempting to install Ubuntu to replace Windows unless they are 'tech-savvy' enough or a software engineer. Such users would only see that as a double negative in losing their apps + UX mental model just to get things done. They first have to unlearn Windows/Mac and then replace their missing apps just use the selected Linux OS (Ubuntu, ChromeOS, etc) which just isn't worth it.

> I recall many a nightmare of getting drivers working on Windows back in the > day.

Yes, Windows is a nightmare for getting drivers working, but I have heard worse stories of Linux users complaining about X11/Wayland bringing down their desktop plus the graphical issues Wine has when running Windows apps and games.

<comment><USER96> I'm not going to entertain any more ideas of "users are stupid and therefore cannot figure out an Ubuntu installation". It's extremely simple and I don't have that little faith in the average person. It's _not_ hard, and I'd appreciate it if we dropped this stupid argument once and for all. It's defeatist and false.

>Yes, Windows is a nightmare for getting drivers working, but I have heard worse stories of Linux users complaining about X11/Wayland bringing down their desktop

In the last 10 years? This is no longer a problem.

>plus the graphical issues Wine has when running Windows apps and games.

The "average user" doesn't care. They want to read Facebook. See my previous comment.

<comment><USER97> > I'm not going to entertain any more ideas of "users are stupid and therefore > cannot figure out an Ubuntu installation". It's extremely simple and I don't > have that little faith in the average person. It's not hard, and I'd > appreciate it if we dropped this stupid argument once and for all. It's > defeatist and false.

Realistically the "average user" has better things to do than to install Ubuntu or another OS these days just to get work done. It's even better for Windows users thanks to WSL which gives them less of a reason to switch to a Linux distro or even to buy a Chromebook. Android is a good example of what the mess of the Linux distros should have been but for mobile.

> In the last 10 years? This is no longer a problem.

Well you brought up an anecdote about Windows as so did I for Linux. But as with both graphics cards and their drivers, this is still an eternal issue on the majority of Linux distros, especially those who keep using NVIDIA and Intel.

> The "average user" doesn't care. They want to read Facebook. See my previous > comment.

Exactly. Why should the "average user" bother with all that trouble in switching/migrating if Windows / Mac users have everything Linux has to offer but with a sainer environment and established support and ecosystem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> I recently set up a ci system in Windows, spending over a month getting things working with various versions of visual studio, etc.

I tried with Windows 10, and widows server 2019. The end result was that Windows 2019 is super fast to set up, and literally compiled the same c code in half the time it took in Windows 10. The user interface was a lot snappier, and just felt nice, like how xp felt after disabling all the eye candy.

If it weren't for the insane pricing, server 2019 would be the ultimate windows os...

</comment><comment><USER99> I dislike this because I would need to use a much more complex password for my home computer. Or I can choose to use a simpler to type/remember password for the online account and I don't feel comfortable with that.

I'm sure that many of you use long complex passwords for your computers but I don't for my home computer. I have to type if often to login and the environment is not a high risk area. I do use longer and more random passwords for accounts with a wider exposure.

</comment><comment><USER100> When I use ChromeOS, Windows 10 or MacOS El Capitan

I guess I'm trading convenience for ...?

Is there any computer vendor that does not call the mothership or need these special vendor accounts?

ChromeOS <\-- GalliumOS Windows <\--- ? Apple <\--- ?

Where do I buy a decent computer these days that respects user privacy without jumping through legal hoops?

Or is the last operating system, GNU/Linux - Linux that respects the user?

System76? ZaReason? puri.sm? <\-- very small marketshare

Back in the day, my Apple //e never used to do that. Times have changed.

</comment><comment><USER101> Is macOS usable without without apple account? Last time I was given a MacBook at work it seemed that updates go through their appstore app which requires apple account.

<comment><USER102> App updates and OS updates are in separate places.

in MacOS, the Apple account is about syncing the iCloud stuff with your Mac.

</comment></comment><comment><USER103> This is unbelievably bad decision for a Desktop OS!

</comment><comment><USER104> I'm sitting typing this on an my Windows 7 PC I built in 2011. Used to game a bit but that declined so the quad core and 16GB in this thing have been more than enough for my needs. It keeps running and I keep it patched.

I've been holding off upgrading to Windows 10 as I wanted to see how Microsoft would handle the cloud/cortana/ad/telemetry nonsense. I'm glad I waited; It'll never run on my home machines. My Linux box is seeing more and more use and my laptop is now running Alpine Linux.

My only gripe is I work in industrial automation, a field who unfortunately embraced Windows as a platform to build their tools on. This is a huge ball and chain that I'd rather not drag around anymore. So I'm still stuck giving my money to these schmucks.

Sigh. Go away Microsoft. Just leave us alone and stop chaining us down with your bullshit. It's been 20+ years of whining about stupid draconian Ms bullshit. I'm so fucking tired of this.

</comment><comment><USER105> Stuff like this is why I switched to Mac for daily use about 2 years ago. On the rare occasion that I have to get on a Windows machine, I'm shocked by how poor the experience is in comparison to MacOS. Not looking back, the MBA is a good value and the hardware is undeniably more refined and higher quality.

</comment><comment><USER106> I can't see what on earth can MS gain from making this change. What does Microsoft gain from users having a "Microsoft account"?

If they go to a services model their Windows marketshare _will_ plummet. As soon as users have to directly pay a monthly fee, all the Linux UX issues will seem meaningless.

</comment><comment><USER107> Um, I just installed the latest Win 10 Development VM on Tuesday from a download of the image the same day, and it most certainly allowed me to install with a non MS account. I dont have the exact build number on hand, but its supposed to be the fast insider ring, from what I read.

<comment><USER70> It's probably the 18970 build. Yes, it allows you to. Yes, Microsoft already reverted the change that some redditor just discovered.

[https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft- made-i...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/3409788/how-microsoft-made-it- harder-to-create-windows-10-local-accounts.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> I don't use Sir, or Alexa, or Cortana. I think the always-on voice recordings are terrifyingly creepy. Hate that they've been invented at all.

A friend of mine came over, with his kid, and I offered to let him watch TV while we talked. 2 minutes later the kid is bawling is eyes out... He couldn't figure out how to make the TV work without talking at it. I handed him a remote, and it was like ancient Egyptian algebra.

Anyway, terrifying glimpse of what's to come. Consumers that don't know how to push any buttons. Who find even using a mouse to be too complicated. Scares me a bit because the tools to create content aren't in that space... by making usage so silly easy, we diminish opportunities to build skills that help turn users into creators.

</comment><comment><USER109> Tangent: I've been running Windows 10 on my work laptop since January 2019 and I use the PIN feature for login. Every so often I'll try to enter my PIN to log in and it says something along the lines of "your pin is not available". What on earth does that mean? The messaging is absurd and gives me no indication of what to do. I don't believe it's directly related to network availability because I'll retry again in a few minutes and it is still unavailable. The only reliable means to get around this is to reboot or enter my full username and password by typing 60 characters in from 1Password on my phone.

<comment><USER110> TPM-chip acting up somehow maybe?

</comment></comment><comment><USER111> I ran into that with my last test VM setup. Very annoying. I'm glad my daily driver is Ubuntu Linux for development. Went with the Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition on this refresh cycle and the hardware support has been perfect.

</comment><comment><USER112> You can still switch to Audit mode during install using SHIFT-F2, follow [https://bartsimons.me/sysprep-generalize-windows-image- witho...](https://bartsimons.me/sysprep-generalize-windows-image-without- oobe/) to disable OOBE, then replace e.g. Narrator.exe with cmd.exe and set an administrator password. After that you can revert Narrator.exe back. It's a bit complicated, but it works and you don't have to create any additional accounts if you don't want to.

</comment><comment><USER113> @Everyone 'Windows 10 LTSB' is the true user-focused version of Windows 10.

Its become one of my favourite OSes.

It doesnt come with any shit on it (windows store, xboxlive, cortana etc etc.) MS have also promised It will not receive _any_ updates that change its functionality but _will_ receive security updates, for 10 years. You can only get it if u buy in bulk tho. Or, u can just get it from tpb.. Considering MS are intentionally not selling by far the most user-respecting version of their OS to regular folks, it behooves us to pirate it.

<comment><USER114> I think you can also get it if you have a Visual Studio subscription (previously called an MSDN subscription) or an Action Pack subscription. The Action Pack is _incredible_ value, BTW.

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> I have been using Arch Linux for 5+ years exclusively and I don't plan to change that. There have been a few issues over time, but overall it meets all my needs. Even video editing is fine with Kdenlive, Cinelerra GG or OpenShot. Gaming support improved with DXVK and Lutris. There is VSCodium IDE and also webapps are popular. Unless you must use SW like Photoshop, there is little reason to use Windows anymore... Just check HW compatibility when buying a new HW (e.g. printer, scanner support) and you will be fine.

</comment><comment><USER116> If I use my live.com account, Windows sets system username automatically with first five letters of my first name. Then I see this stupid choice every time I open Windows console.

<comment><USER117> Yeah, I've always found that behavior really annoying. And it's basically impossible to fix it after the fact without making a separate account. The trick, if you know it before hand, is to make a local account (I guess you need to be offline for that now) and then link it later.

</comment></comment><comment><USER118> Relatedly, when I wanted to enable full disk encryption on Windows 10 Home, it insisted that I switch to online account (as in, it was impossible to enable FDE until I did). WTF?

<comment><USER51> I kind of understand this decision. Users forget their account password and lock themselves out. Then they complain about Windows loosing all their data. With an online account they can reset their password via mail, etc.

There definitely should be an option to encrypt it like the in the pro version, but then you could also just buy the pro version (then you can also disable auto-updates...). It's not really expensive in the EU.

<comment><USER118> Is there an available Pro update for arm64? Heck, I couldn't even find an install image for the version I have, and for some reason, Windows reset doesn't work, so I hope Windows won't hose itself ever on that machine, because it will then be a brick.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER119> Oh that's so annoying, it's the only 100% reliable way I've found to not have my user folder not named the first five letters of my truncates username.

Edit: oh it's not gone, it's hidden

</comment><comment><USER120> This is good to know. I was about to buy a Windows machine to use with an EEPROM programmer (using most of them with a Mac or Linux is a faff) but this just stopped me.

</comment><comment><USER121> Another ex-win7/10 user here who switched to Linux Mint because of stuff like this and a lot of simular sh*t. Never looked back and sorry I didnt do it before.

</comment><comment><USER122> To workaround a lot of other similar issues, to remove crapware bundled with Windows, to move entire profiles (and not just some folders) to another disk, to make installation experience much more pleasant I use NTLite. Windows setup can actually install Windows we want. Just it is not exposed to GUI and Microsoft original configuration tools are extremely terrible and confusing.

</comment><comment><USER123> This is what the market wants. There are good alternatives like BSD, Solaris, various Linux distributions for those that want more control. And for those that enjoy the lock in there is also Apple devices and Chromebooks. It would be interesting if Intel and others would create an open Linux core enterprise pre installed OS with decentralized options for support and services.

</comment><comment><USER124> For the last year I have been logged into Windows as my son (complete with getting weekly screentime reports about myself) because I once tried to set up a network game of Minecraft and somehow this associated a Microsoft account with my previously offline user account. There is no way to undo this without creating a new account from scratch and deleting the old one.

<comment><USER89> Yeah, Microsoft accounts have always been a horrible mess...

</comment></comment><comment><USER125> What puzzles me is that with al these problems and the ongoing worsening of Ms Windows, people are still using it. I just don't get it

</comment><comment><USER126> Another great day for linux.

<comment><USER127> I'm sad Windows still has a (basic) monopoly on computer gaming.

<comment><USER126> Who told you that? Look at all the games on steam proton. All the best indi games run fine on linux. I was playing eve online last night and subnautica a few days ago. Ksp, factorio, minecraft ... there are tons of great games on linux.

<comment><USER128> Including Thimbleweed Park, the best game ever

<comment><USER129> Never heard of it. It looks like Monkey Island, which is IMHO one of the best games ever.

<comment><USER128> it's made by the guy who made monkey island. you'll love it. i was so stoked to have my book on the library shelf in the game. there were user submissions while the game was in progress and it really added something special to it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER130> I wasn't offered the "use offline account" option when I was installing Windows 10 home edition but I've then restarted the installation with the Internet wire detached and it was there.

If there is no way to use an offline account any more I'm certainly not installing. Bye, Windows, it has been amazing 25-yr-long adventure I've enyoyed, thank you and bye.

</comment><comment><USER131> I've never created an online account with Microsoft. I don't see any advantage in giving them my login information. It makes me mad every time I have to pixel hunt for the link that is way down in the corner and one shade darker than the background. Like people at Microsoft have to know this is absolute bullshit and yet they keep doing it.

</comment><comment><USER132> Man, I just set up a Windows laptop for my wife past week and made sure to skip it. I guess she bought it at just the right time...

</comment><comment><USER133> Is Windows necessary? I used macs when I was a kid, and now Ubuntu. Never had to deal with any of this OS-level garbage.

</comment><comment><USER134> In theory I have two Microsoft accounts but I think there was a botched DB migration at some point because they've been merged somehow into a weird broken state that shows info from both.

I tried to contact Microsoft support to get this fixed but they were totally useless, and that's when I gave up. Not going back.

</comment><comment><USER135> The option isn't gone, it's under Join Domain, which allows you to create a local user as previous versions have.

</comment><comment><USER136> Microsoft Windows 10 is the least secure OS on the market. Tracking, spying on, selling all user data to the highest bidder. MS is an abomination to privacy and security.

I still have an installed copy of Win 8 for special use if need be. However, I am avoiding the use MS products if at all possible.

</comment><comment><USER137> Is this true even on more enterprisey versions of windows? I tend to use py- kms to activate licenses when I rarely need them (such as on VMs), and I generally stick to workstation or LTSB versions of windows. LTSB is actually pretty nice.

</comment><comment><USER138> I'm not a user of MacOs, but does Apple allow to use their system without AppleId?

</comment><comment><USER23> This is why I pirate Windows Server and KMS activate with an instance of vlmcsd on my home router (with the DNS SRV wizardry set up to allow automatic discovery). You can pay and pray, or you can vote both with your dollar and wits!

</comment><comment><USER139> They did this with office 2019 activation as well. I'm actually done now with them.

</comment><comment><USER140> I just want to point out that nobody should really be surprised by this. It's essentially why I dropped windows like a hot potato when Windows 8 asked me to make an account tmfor the first time.

</comment><comment><USER141> This might sound insane, but there is a literal cult taking over Microsoft with the explicit intent on spying on people and dominating the conversation regarding privacy. Just a hunch.

</comment><comment><USER142> Realized after buying a windows laptop you can't get bitlocker or drive encryption without having a MS account or paying for pro. So security isn't a feature, it's a paid add-on.

<comment><USER114> VeraCrypt is a good alternative.

</comment></comment><comment><USER143> But but Microsoft is goood! Look GitHub! Linux! Open Souwce! I only use Windows because software I need doesn't work on Linux.

</comment><comment><USER144> How is the situation in the Apple world these days?

Can you still activate an iPhone or iPad without providing a telephone number?

</comment><comment><USER145> Nothing was removed. It was just obfuscated like it was before. Disconnect the internet and it will work.

</comment><comment><USER146> I'm waiting for the day when advertising is built into the kernel as a fundamental part of the OS.

</comment><comment><USER147> Maybe that's part of Microsoft ongoing effort to make users switch from Windows to Linux :)

</comment><comment><USER148> If this is true, what do you do about a machine that is going to be joined to a domain?

</comment><comment><USER149> Which is why my windows 7 box will remain on windows 7 and unplugged from the internet.

</comment><comment><USER150> Surely it is still there, how else could a business set up a PC to join on- premises AD?

</comment><comment><USER151> Yet another reason to use Linux.

</comment><comment><USER152> AFAIK, the removed it in version 1803 or 1809 but added it back in 1903.

</comment><comment><USER153> So you cant install if you're not connected to the internet?

</comment><comment><USER154> Move to Apple computers. This is wrong. Vote with your dollars.

</comment><comment><USER155> Increasingly Windows relegates itself to a launcher for Steam.

</comment><comment><USER156> Microsoft just came late to the behavioral profiling party

</comment><comment><USER157> LOL to anyone who didn't see this coming

</comment><comment><USER158> I removed Windows when installed Ubuntu.

</comment><comment><USER159> What is the profit driver behind this?

</comment><comment><USER160> So what happens if you use a soldering iron and cut out the network chip from a laptop, or don't put a network card in the desktop?

</comment><comment><USER161> Switch and bait; works every time.

</comment><comment><USER162> Buy pirated Windows LTSC on ebay (or actual, if you have 260 usd to spare), it solves most of Windows 10 problems

<comment><USER30> If you're going to pirate, might as well pirate Windows Server, which is basically the same kernel with a far less offensive (and bloated) userland configuration.

<comment><USER162> Isn't LTSC better as a desktop? It's just Windows 10 without the user hostile crap.

But I have never run Windows Server

<comment><USER30> I'm not sure, I've not tried LTSC --- but the fact that I've met a few _Microsoft employees_ who run the Server version on their company desktops and even laptops (because as an employee, they can get legit licenses for basically free) speaks volumes about what they think of Win10...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER163> It's hidden, not removed.

</comment><comment><USER164> are there any decent ms office alternatives for linux (not libreoffice)?

<comment><USER165> Yes, there are several. All three of the following are free of charge on Linux.

OnlyOffice is an open source office suite that has native support for Microsoft Office formats (.docx, .xlsx, .pptx). There is a desktop version that works offline and an online version that integrates with Nextcloud. There are also mobile apps (closed source).

Home page: [https://www.onlyoffice.com](https://www.onlyoffice.com)

Download: [https://www.onlyoffice.com/download- desktop.aspx](https://www.onlyoffice.com/download-desktop.aspx)

GitHub: [https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/DesktopEditors](https://github.com/ONLYOFFICE/DesktopEditors)

WPS Office (previously known as Kingsoft Office) is a closed source office suite that works on Linux. The software is quite popular in China, and the Android app has over 100 million downloads on the Play Store.

Homepage: [https://www.wps.com/office/linux](https://www.wps.com/office/linux)

Download: [http://wps-community.org/downloads](http://wps- community.org/downloads)

Flatpak: [https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.wps.Office](https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.wps.Office)

FreeOffice is another closed source office suite for Linux.

Homepage: [https://www.freeoffice.com/en](https://www.freeoffice.com/en)

Download: [https://www.freeoffice.com/en/download/applications](https://www.freeoffice.com/en/download/applications)

</comment></comment><comment> m-p-3 Title should be modified. It's not removed, it's hidden in a dark pattern.

</comment><comment><USER166> Long life for a Linux!

</comment><comment><USER167> Apple forced you to use an apple account for as long as i can remember

</comment><comment><USER168> This is why we need government regulations.

</comment><comment><USER169> Disturbing.

</comment><comment><USER170> I am unable to replicate these findings and I did 3 fresh installs in a VM. For Ref I used US install media but I am in the EU so maybe they are doing this based on region based on my IP address all 3 test where done while online (couldn't be arsed to VPN to the states to test).

(I only have pro license's to hand, maybe its diff with home licenses, EDIT: Just got a home license. I'll test with that for the shits and giggles off it. But honestly, we should be installing pro for people so we have easier control via group policies anyways BRB testing more now i'm back home.)

First test: I installed a fresh copy of Retail Win 10 Pro 1903 downloaded today from [https://microsoft.com/en-gb/software- download/windows10iso](https://microsoft.com/en-gb/software- download/windows10iso) (Note: unless you fake your UA to be something other than windows it will redirect you to the media creation tool download. Say you are an iphone for example it will happily let you download the raw ISO without the media creation tool) During install it gives me the option to use an offline account in the bottom left [0].

Second test: I installed a fresh copy of Windows 10 Pro 18970 insider build from [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software- download/windowsins...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software- download/windowsinsiderpreviewadvanced) downloaded today again it gave me the option to use a local account in the bottom left [1]

(note: the two pic's will look the same, but they were taken from the 2 diff iso's - granted it will try its hardest to get me to change my mind during the rest of the set up but the option is there.)

Third Test: I installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 Pro with obv a local account, I then upgraded 7 pro to 10 1903 pro using the media creation tool, I selected the option to keep my existing files and apps and allowed the upgrade to take. Told setup NO to all the extra's (location, personal ad's etc etc etc) and the install took using the existing local account and didn't prompt me to "upgrade" to an MS account.

As for real hardware I upgraded a friend of the families laptop 2 weeks ago from 7 to 10 using the media creation tool and it again upgraded without pestering for an MS account. (And I'll be upgrading another in the next week or two when they are ready for me to do it. They would rather have the process hand holded for them incase of any oddness during the process, so I'll be able to report back then)

I'll bash MS as much as the next person but I'm unable to replicate these findings. I know they try their hardest to push an MS account onto people (I run the insider build on my personal rig and every major update I get a prompt about all the wonderful things a MS account brings... But I am still able to say Nope, local account thanks :-)

[0] [https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-07-10-552.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-07-10-552.png)

[1] [https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-21-05-939.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_10-21-05-939.png)

EDIT: Fresh install with home and they moved the offline button. Typed in some random numbers in the account bar [2] and it gave me the option to use an offline account on the next page [3] which then took me though the process of creating a local account [4] - Is it an annoying dark pattern? Yes. Did they remove local accounts? Nope.

[2] [https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-32-57-607.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-32-57-607.png)

[3] [https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-33-17-029.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-33-17-029.png)

[4] [https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-36-37-343.png](https://cejack.tk/2019-09-29_17-36-37-343.png)

</comment><comment><USER171> it is pretty old news...

</comment><comment><USER172> LTSC

</comment><comment><USER173> >Windows is a service

Windows used to be a fucking operating system. That's all I want it to be.

<comment> amiga-workbench Its pretty much the McDonalds of operating systems these days, I do not know how people put up with it.

<comment><USER174> What else is any average user going to switch to exactly?

<comment><USER175> Linux? Basically everything an average user does is in the browser.

<comment><USER176> As a privacy concerned individual who is more tech savvy than some (but by no means a technologist or even a dev) - NO. no freakin' way man. I tried to do a dual boot WIN/Linux setup once. What a shitshow - took me hours, multiple attempts, drivers not working, weird quirks trying to get peripherals to work, games not working. Recalling it now makes me angry all over again.

90% of this planet is not capable, nor will ever be capable, of dealing with something that is not a fully fledged, 'stable' mainstream OS, either Windows or Mac OS. That's not good, it's not bad - it just...is. Better get used to it, or come up with a better strategy for changing it.

<comment><USER177> This is unfortunate but entirely true. I'm a software developer and though absolutely not a Linux expert of any kind, nevertheless very far from being a computer novice. But this is kind of my experience with Linux. I keep logs of configuration & software difficulties I have with OSs. My Linux one for this month is longer than my Windows & OSX ones for the past decade combined.

And I'm writing here as (currently) a Linux user - it's the main OS on my work laptop because the things I like about it (stellar performance, notably from the filesystem, fantastic developer tooling) are more important to me than the difficult things. But the difficulties are numberless, and I accept that many things I take for granted on Windows or OSX just will never work well. Most of them _could_ work, but I'll never have time to track down & absorb all the Arch wiki, SO & manpage resources I'd need to sort them out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER178> Hmm can anybody elobrate what Bill Gates and he's wife have to do with Epstein ?

Why Bill Gates has paying to MIT thru Epstein ?

Hahaha.. yes hide me, give me minus.. no worry!

</comment><comment><USER179> I am not even sure why Windows matters anymore. MS probably gives 0 fucks about your usual consumers and cares only about those customers who will also buy Office365 subscription.

</comment><comment><USER180> This post has become far too popular for something that isn't really true. Similar to news about Xbox needing to be connected to the internet.

1\. Windows 10 always prioritized account creation with an online account simply because it was more feature rich.

2\. Windows 10 always had an option (dark) to create account connected with no online account. It was hidden. And discouraged.

3\. Windows 10 still offers offline account creation through user control panel within an existing account.

4\. Imagine being able to go to any computer and logging in with your account that is based in some other machine.

5\. Imagine going to a computer without your account that also prevents others from logging in because it is password protected. And being able to log in anyway through your online account.

Stop freaking out. This expands options nicely.

Edit: it would be nice to be told why the disagreement.</comment>


Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2016 - <AUTHOR> https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2017/income-povery.html <comment><USER3> How is "all time high" income surprising, given that inflation essentially guarantees perpetually increasing dollar amounts of everything?

<comment><USER4> The increase is measured in "real terms" which means things like CPI are taken in to account. Further this number does decrease, for example during the last recession, so household median income is not directly correlated with inflation -- especially in this era of low inflation (compared to the mid-to- late 20th century inflation) that we've been in for a while.

<comment><USER5> " which means things like CPI are taken in to account."

Yes - but we should all be weary of this.

CPI is measured in funky ways, and it's tough one.

Problems with measures:

\+ Both housing and Oil prices are usually left out of the numbers they use (included in others).

There are reasons for doing this, but it's bazonkers crazy to think of 'consumer prices' as not including their #1 item (housing) and a huge variable cost that consumers pay for directly (gas) but also that goes into everything (airline tickets, transport of stuff, taxi, etc. etc..)

And of course the hardest thing to measure is the real value increase of a product ... i.e. a tomato that is bigger, redder, juicier, healthier - <USER2> worth more than one that is not. So - if prices for tomatoes stay flat - but - their value has actually increased, well, that's deflation. That intangible is super hard to measure and quantify.

It's the later issue that is at the heart of so many economic arguments: some say we are 'poorer than ever' \- and yet, every single bit of material consumable is way better than it ever was. The crappiest Peugot today drives better than the #1 Mercedes from 1985 ...

<comment><USER6> "core" CPI includes housing.

This is funky for another reason: people don't live in similar housing to what people lived in in the past. If you look at census data (American Housing Survey) from 40-50 years ago, you find the average American home was under 1500 square feet, 2-3 bedrooms, 1-2 bathrooms, no AC, no laundry machines, and so on. In fact, the average American home in the 1970s was smaller and had less amenities than the average current American home _for people below the poverty line_.

Any measure that just looks at the change in housing _costs_ and doesn't adjust for the _benefits_ of on-average larger homes with more amenities will end up overestimating that piece of monetary inflation (accidentally counting lifestyle inflation.) As you say, it's really hard to measure the "real value increase of a product", and that makes a lot of inflation measures... sketchy.

<comment><USER7> If only we could buy 1000 square foot houses in expensive areas. They don't get built anymore.

<comment><USER6> yeah, building and zoning are certainly relevant considerations. I'm not saying "this is all the fault of consumers". More like "when we measure inflation, we conflate monetary and lifestyle inflation, and our preferred policy ideas might not reflect that."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> For context, the survey covers 2015-16. The gains are from the last administration.

<comment><USER9> The first year of someone's term is very rarely affected by their policies. My particular pet hate is when politicians start bragging about how their policies are responsible for good economic news when they're still in the first three months.

Truth is that economies change slowly, and politicians have much less control over it than we all like to believe.

<comment><USER10> I think in general you're right, but with a some exceptions. Like say it depends on what part of economy we are talking about. If inflation, GDP numbers and so on, then those move slower. But stock market can react pretty quickly it seems. For example it can react to getting a hint of a possibly changing regulatory environments. A crashing or rapidly rising stock market will affect the economy quite a bit, especially if it is sustained long enough.

War can change things, disasters, foreign economic threats (say a trade war with a major superpower). Those can have rapid effects as well.

<comment><USER9> Well, disasters and foreign economic threats aren't due to a politician's policy, and the regulatory environment usually doesn't change straight away (that requires legislation, not just a policy manifesto). War is a rare event as well, and it doesn't necessarily affect the wider economy - the war in Iraq and Afghanistan hasn't affected the US economy much, which quite happily went through a boom time in the early years of the war, then crashed for reasons unrelated to the war. Of course, the economy of Iraq got soundly fucked by war, but that wasn't due to the economic policies of the politician in charge.

<comment><USER11> The war had enormous implications for the economy. Commodity prices were driven extremely high due to investor uncertainty about the Middle East oil supply. It got so bad that Congress had to pressure traders to stop hoarding massive amounts of crude oil in the hopes that the supply would be disrupted and the price would escalate. These commodity price rises fueled speculation into other asset classes, such as housing and loans.

As always there were some short-term positive Keynesian stimulative effects by increased government spending, but a massive run-up of the deficit did increase the cost of servicing the national debt, which might otherwise have been directed into productive enterprises, rather than the wasteful Iraq war which achieved negative progress.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm curious: is anyone at a point where they're pulling out of equities at all? I feel like things are getting a bit too good to be true in the markets.

The Shiller P/E ratio is at a 2nd-time high - the only other higher time being the dot-com boom and bust: multpl.com/shiller-pe/

<comment><USER13> Trying to time the market is a well known suboptimal strategy. Just leave your money and try not to worry about it.

<comment><USER14> Unless you're retiring in the next five years or something like that.

<comment><USER15> Do you think market will return to this level with your current basket of equities? There is an argument that the market has too much liquidity due to QE and low rates within the fractional reserve system. If the market crashes, will the monetary policy be there to get the market to these highs within 5-10 years?

Also, if you think the market is going down, one doesn't need perfect timing. You can get out and have cash on hand to buy later. If everything goes down 25% and you sold out 5% below the max value, you now have more money than your peers, which started in the market, to get gains in the future.

<comment><USER16> This is true, but nailing that timing is really hard. I can't remember the exact numbers but if you missed the 10 best days for the market in the last 40 years, you missed out on 70% of the gains.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> My bank account says, "That was a lie."

<comment><USER18> Your bank account says "find a better job". In today's job market there's really no excuse for anyone who can understand at least half the news posted on this site to make less than six figures.

<comment><USER19> Tell that to the people on the wrong side of 40.

<comment><USER18> I'm older than that myself. Doing pretty good.

<comment><USER20> If you are 40 and just getting started, how does that feel?

Do you have any capacity for empathy or understanding a life situation that is not your own?

<comment><USER18> No. If you can't find a job as an engineer in this white hot market, it's time to think of a career change. That's the cold, hard truth. Things are crazier than I've seen them in 20 years. Empathy does not motivate. Get off your ass and strike this iron while it's hot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> What happens when the US needs to start paying off the trillions in debt? I remember the last time things were good. It stopped being good quite rapidly. I don't know much about monetary and economic policy but I'm optimistically cautious. I can't imagine the US borrowing several trillion dollars to keep credit from freezing again.

<comment><USER22> My understanding is that most US debt is held by US citizens or US organizations.

<comment><USER23> And the Chinese government which is building a massive army for totally unknown reasons /s

<comment><USER24> The wonderful thing about owing so much debt is it really makes the financial incentive for war against you that much lower for your lenders.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Side note: The 5.8% decline in poverty is not explicitly stated. Per the report, the number of persons in poverty dropped by 2.5 million to 40.6 million. I added the 2.5 million back to 40.6 million to get the 2015 number, then divided it back into 2.5 million to get the 5.8% YoY decline from 2015 - 2016:

2.5 / (40.6 + 2.5) = 5.8%

</comment><comment><USER25> I wonder why the title of this post got changed from "US Median Household Income +3.2% to All-Time High..."

<comment><USER26> The title was changed to the actual title of the document. HN discourages editorializing titles.

> _" …please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait."_

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> As I understand it, the measurement for poverty is unreasonably low. That the better rule of thumb is the number of citizens below 2x the traditional poverty income levels. This data is over-aggregated.</comment>


Ask HN: Why does everything break immediately when starting a new language? - <AUTHOR> Many years ago, when I started python, nothing would compile or install. It took many hours to get used to the virtual environment, different versions of python (2 and 3), and then the libraries to get hello world working reliably.
When I first started ruby, the rvm on the machine had not been updated. Got everything up and running, and then a new update in rails broke the hello world example.
When I started VueJS, npm simply would not install everything I needed. It kept telling me it was broken. I finally realized that it was running a slightly older version of nodejs and that changed everything.
Why does it take so many hours just to get the first basic hello world up?
Sure, after you've played with it, you know exactly what happened so well that you ignore the issue.
Its not the bother of learning it, it just seems something is fundamentally wrong with development if our tools are like this. <comment><USER2> I think many developers have a "macho" attitude that things are supposed to be hard; if you are smart you can handle the complexity of C++, Kubernetes, etc...

Python is a special case. Python was easy long ago but the Python 2 to Python 3 transition was brutal, particularly because many Linux distributions used Python as a scripting language for system scripts. Thus "python" had to be python 2, and a generation of programmers got python 2 as a default and wrote more py 2 code when they should have been writing py 3.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've had plenty of these situations aswell, and now a days I don't even bother if the process setting something up is too painful. That is why I highly enjoy writing scripting languages so much, because they are generally just out of the box ready to run after a small install. No extra thought required to begin developing.</comment>


Landing Page Book – React components library to build landing pages - <AUTHOR> https://front10.com/get-landing-page-book/ <comment><USER2> We are very happy to launch the library, any problem contacting us, we will be happy to help the community.</comment>


WSU scientists enlist citizens in hunt for Asian giant hornet - <AUTHOR> https://news.wsu.edu/2020/04/06/wsu-scientists-enlist-citizens-hunt-giant-bee-killing-hornet/ <comment><USER2> Japanese honey bees have a remarkable defense strategy against these things. From the Wikipedia page for Asian giant hornet [1]:

> As the hornet enters, a mob of hundreds of bees surrounds it in a ball, > completely covering it and preventing it from reacting effectively. The bees > violently vibrate their flight muscles in much the same way as they do to > heat the hive in cold conditions. This raises the temperature in the ball to > the critical temperature of 46 °C (115 °F). In addition, the exertions of > the honeybees raise the level of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the ball. At that > concentration of CO2, they can tolerate up to 50 °C (122 °F), but the hornet > cannot survive the combination of high temperature and high carbon dioxide > level. Some bees do die along with the intruder, much as happens when they > attack other intruders with their stings, but by killing the hornet scout, > they prevent it from summoning reinforcements that would wipe out the entire > colony.

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_giant_hornet)

<comment><USER3> European honey bees, such as those in the US, lack this adaptation, which is a big part of why it's important to prevent V. mandarinia colonizing the US.

<comment><USER4> I believe V. mandarinia are also significantly more dangerous to humans. Nearly as many people are killed by them in Japan every year (30-40 according to wikipedia) as are killed by hornets, wasps and bees _combined_ in the US (62 per year on average: [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6829a5.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6829a5.htm)) Bear in mind those figures aren't per-capita.

<comment><USER3> Their size gives them a larger venom dose per sting, and I gather they're more inclined to sting repeatedly than other wasps. I think I remember reading their venom is actually more toxic by volume than the usual as well, but not so sure there. Either way, you're quite right.

I'm pretty cavalier about risking stings for the most part, because I'm familiar enough with bees and wasps to know how to avoid making them feel threatened, and I'm not allergic in any case - and taking a calculated risk, for the chance at an excellent photo, is in my estimation worth it. Even so, I think I'd be very hesitant to approach a V. mandarinia individual unless I was _very_ certain her nest was nowhere nearby. Maybe not even then. Calculated risk is one thing, but with these I'm not at all sure the math works out.

All that aside, I'm more worried about the risk to bees than that to humans, who are only ever attacked incidentally by wasps in any case. Our primary pollinators are already under threat enough without having to face the hymenopterans' answer to a Terminator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> They should enlist dragonflies. A few years ago I was chased by this type of hornet in rural Japan and was saved by a dragonfly that intercepted it in a dramatic takedown.

<comment><USER6> Not sure I would've survived the heart attack to see the takedown. These hornets are the stuff of my nightmares.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Now this makes me wonder what kind of wasp I've seen attacking bees in my garden in Sweden.

A very large wasp, I thought 2" in length, with the classic black and yellow stripes. I had assumed it was solitary. I've seen them hovering near the entrance of a wild hive and swooping on bees as they land and start to crawl in. The bee and wasp then tumble down to the ground, and there's a struggle. Then the bee is released, and flies back to the hive. The wasp returns to hover by the entrance, awaiting its next victim.

These massive wasps will reappear this summer, as usual. I will have to try and identify them better. Anyone have any ideas?

<comment><USER8> Could it have been a Mammoth Wasp?[1] I've seen one in the Netherlands 2 years ago. Very distinctive pattern on the abdomen.

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_wasp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_wasp)

<comment><USER3> Would a mammoth wasp attack a bee? Scoliids are parasitoids, and this one is described as having a life habit typical of the family. Typically the adults feed only on nectar, unlike the more predatory vespids.

<comment><USER7> The markings feel familiar. Of course I am not being objective and need to actually get one in front of me to check when they are in season.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Because hornet is much bigger then bees

Is it possible to build a cover outside of the hive with holes that only bees can pass through?

</comment><comment><USER10> Welp, guess I'm never going to Washington

<comment><USER6> I'm stuck here in WA... with THEM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've never seen one of those (in NC) but I have seen the enormous Cicada Killer Wasp which is relatively harmless

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphecius_speciosus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphecius_speciosus)

<comment><USER12> We have tons of those in Central Texas! But they're not aggressive at all, if a little curious. Definitely huge. I've also seen a few tarantula hawks, which look very evil.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> On the one hand it's obvious why they need to be eradicated given how disruptive they are to the ecosystem, but on the other hand it makes me a little sad, they're beautiful animals.

</comment><comment><USER14> Scientists shouldn't encourage people to deal with a potentially lethal animal, and by the way, how a chinese giant hornet ended being introduced in Washington? Those things are unmistakable. Was nobody in charge?

Is nature boycott everywhere you look...

<comment><USER15> > "Don't try to take them out yourself if you see them," he said. "If you get > into them, run away, then call us!"</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best website to find a laptop by spec - <AUTHOR>

I'm a bit disappointed with the "laptop search engines" I could find through Google - they invariably fail to categorize by some of the metrics I'm interested in.<p>Does anybody know a laptop finder website that allows to filter by (1) size, (2) amount of RAM, (3) core, (4) SSD size and (5) screen resolution? <comment><USER2> [http://things.gnod.com/laptops/](http://things.gnod.com/laptops/) has the metrics you are looking for.</comment>


Buy Low, Sell High: The Worst Financial Advice of All Time - <AUTHOR> https://outlookzen.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/buy-low-sell-high-the-worst-financial-advice-of-all-time/ <comment><USER2> tl;dr: cherry-picked historical examples show the market can always go lower, or higher, and you would miss out.

</comment><comment><USER3> Oh boy. You have just discovered that predicting future is difficult.</comment>