Ask HN: Is using my personal information for scam a GDPR violation? - <AUTHOR> I recently got an attempted scam from this company: https://wptr.biz. Their scam seems to be widely known: https://www.wipo.int/pct/en/warning/pct_warning.html.
The scam works as follows: Monitor the database of PCT applications, then send a letter with an invoice that resembles the genuine service. Scam fees can clock as high as thousands of euros. Although the collected information is public, I certainly did not agree to it being collected and processed for the purpose of scamming me. Is this a GDPR violation?
I complained to the Swedish Data Protection Agency and they basically replied "we are too busy". <comment><USER2> I can't see how it can be. But if it is, then the Swedish Protection Agency will be too busy!

Personally, I'd raise a complaint against that agency for neglect. I'm not sure of the best way, but start with the police, local politician. Greif the agency with red tape and bureaucracy into singling them out.

They are also part of the EU, so maybe go over their heads and raise it there, maybe start with your local MEP. But the shame approach with the EU, would get some results. All legal, safe and better to use the system to combat the system.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is a classic scam using public databases (e.g. companies register).

It's legal to collect public data for marketing purposes as far as I know.

Issuing fake invoices is probably fraud.

Under the GDPR you may have a right to demand the scammers remove your details from their own database ;)

</comment><comment><USER4> If its public information, its highly unlikely to be a GDPR violation. They may also be operating in a country outside of the EU, so they'd be immune to GDPR regulation anyways.

<comment><USER5> Doesn't matter if they're from the EU or not. If you target (people in) the EU, the GDPR applies, no matter where you're from. Whether the GDPR can be effectively enforced is another question of course.

<comment><USER4> Not true, the GDPR only applies if you do business with the EU. There are some companies that have decided to become "GDPR Compliant" that are outside of the EU, but they don't really need to.</comment></comment></comment>


How to use Trello like a pro - <AUTHOR> http://blog.trello.com/how-to-use-trello-like-a-pro/ <comment><USER2> Thank you for putting this somewhere I could find it. HN to the rescue, again. HA!</comment>


How to Use UTF-8 with Python - <AUTHOR> http://www.evanjones.ca/python-utf8.html <comment><USER2> This was published in 2005. Unicode in python has come a long way since then, especially with respect to python 3 [1], [2].

[1] [http://docs.python.org/release/3.0.1/whatsnew/3.0.html#text-...](http://docs.python.org/release/3.0.1/whatsnew/3.0.html#text- vs-data-instead-of-unicode-vs-8-bit) [2] <http://docs.python.org/release/3.0.1/howto/unicode.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> Python 2 is still the status quo though.

One of my favorite things about Python 3 is its new string handling. It is fantastic and marginally more intuitive. Having an explicit (and a more general) immutable `bytes` class, no longer sharing a base class with `unicode`, and having Unicode instead of a potentially-encoded string as the default are all wonderful decisions and moves Python forward by miles in my opinion.

Until Python 3 becomes the norm, we're still stuck with the confusing `str` and `unicode` constructs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> For decoding a byte string, I prefer bytes.decode("utf8"). Note that decode takes an optional second argument that says what to do if an invalid byte sequence is encountered - by default an exception is raised.

Also, I think <http://docs.python.org/howto/unicode.html> may be a better reference than this article.

</comment><comment><USER4>
        $ python3
        Python 3.2.2 (default, Nov 21 2011, 05:01:42)
        [GCC 4.4.5] on linux2
        Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more
        information.
        >>> print('hello world') # <-- Unicode!

</comment><comment><USER5> To add to this, Kumar McMillan's talk, "Unicode In Python, Completely Demystified" (<http://farmdev.com/talks/unicode/>) is really good.

</comment><comment><USER6> _First, you can place a UTF-8 byte-order marker at the beginning of your file, if your editor supports it. Secondly, you can place the following special comment in the first or second lines of your script:

# -_\- coding: utf-8 - _-_

Does Python actually parse comments, or is this just to get your editor to do the right thing?

<comment><USER3> _Python supports writing Unicode literals in any encoding, but you have to declare the encoding being used. This is done by including a special comment as either the first or second line of the source file:_

      # -*- coding: latin-1 -*-

_The syntax is inspired by Emacs's notation for specifying variables local to a file. Emacs supports many different variables, but Python only supports 'coding'. The dash-splat-dash symbols indicate to Emacs that the comment is special; they have no significance to Python but are a convention. Python looks for coding: name or coding=name in the comment._

<http://docs.python.org/howto/unicode.html>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> some useful helpers from tornado's escape.py:

        def utf8(value):
            if isinstance(value, unicode):
                return value.encode("utf-8")
            assert isinstance(value, str)
            return value

        def _unicode(value):
            if isinstance(value, str):
                return value.decode("utf-8")
            assert isinstance(value, unicode)
            return value</comment>


GitHub Hits The 4M User Mark - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/11/github-hits-the-4m-user-mark-as-it-looks-beyond-developers-for-its-next-stage-of-growth/

<comment><USER2> I have 2 github accounts, one personal that I use very seldom, since I prefer to put my free software on gitorius.ORG in Norway rather than on github.COM in the USA, and another for work, since my boss puts his company's sources on github.

In anycase that means 4M-1 users, for 4M accounts.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I was personally surprised as i thought there are more users.

But still 4M developers are quite a lot. Love using Github.</comment>


Tell HN: Unfuddle (svn hosting) has bad password security - <AUTHOR>

I was poking at Unfuddle (http://unfuddle.com) and forgot my password. I reset it, and in the email that was sent to me was a randomly generated password along with my username for their site, which is entirely different than my email address.
So, I logged back in and changed the password manually. I then signed out and did the lost password request again. Another email was sent, this time containing an entirely different randomly generated password.
This is almost as bad as Unfuddle storing my password in plaintext (which they may be doing anyway). Under no circumstances should your service ever just generate a new password and send it in the email.
There's are a few ways this is really bad.
1) The password reset request completely wipes out your old password.
2) I can reset the password of anyone who I know has an account on Unfuddle, simply by knowing their email address.
3) If I gain access to their email address, I now have 1-click access to their source code repo hosted at Unfuddle.
4) I can easily perform a denial of service request against an account(s) by writing a script that periodically submits the reset link for a given email address. While I may not be able to get access to your account, I make it hard for you to get access to it also.
If you or your team use Unfuddle, I highly recommend that you stop and look for alternative hosting. <comment><USER2> I will admit that under this functionality it would, in theory, be possible for one to grief a user in an Unfuddle account if one knew the correct email address. I say "in theory" because this has never happened in Unfuddle.

In any case, I am pleased to announce that this is no longer possible. In the last two days we have completely changed the password recovery process in Unfuddle. The process looks something like this:

1) User requests to recover his/her password by entering email address in reset form (just like before) 2) An email is sent containing a secure link to a password reset form 3) User clicks on link to access the form only if he/she actually wants to reset the password 4) User enters desired password and confirms it 5) Password is reset and never sent through email or transmitted unencrypted.

This takes care of all your points with the exception of #3. As cheald mentioned below, if someone gains access to your email you are in trouble anyway. Take some responsibility and use good password sense when protecting things which are important to you.

Finally, I want to make it clear that we do not store passwords in plain text and never have. Please confirm such speculations with a service provider before posting things you don't know in public.

</comment><comment><USER3> Have you confirmed that performing the password reset request invalidates the current password? The way I've seen this done is to have two password fields - one for the normal password, one for temporary passwords. Issuing a reset won't lock out the "normal" password until you log in and change it.

If someone gains access to your email, it's game over anyway.

</comment><comment><USER4> Have you tried talking to the guys at Unfuddle about this issue? Everytime I find something wrong with a website or a service I use I first try to discuss it with them before going public about it. They might really love your comment and fix this problem very quickly if their developer can do it.</comment>


David Foster Wallace. Dead at 46. - <AUTHOR> http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2008/09/14/david_foster_wa.html <comment><USER2> And here's DFW's turn on Charlie Rose 11 years ago: <http://www.charlierose.com/guests/david-wallace>

And a great commencement speech from Kenyon U. three years ago: <http://www.marginalia.org/dfw_kenyon_commencement.html>

fwiw: "This, like many clichés, so lame and unexciting on the surface, actually expresses a great and terrible truth. It is not the least bit coincidental that adults who commit suicide with firearms almost always shoot themselves in: the head. They shoot the terrible master. And the truth is that most of these suicides are actually dead long before they pull the trigger.

And I submit that this is what the real, no bullshit value of your liberal arts education is supposed to be about: how to keep from going through your comfortable, prosperous, respectable adult life dead, unconscious, a slave to your head and to your natural default setting of being uniquely, completely, imperially alone day in and day out. "

</comment><comment><USER3> Cheers to Kedrosky for saying "Dead" instead of "Passed' or something else equally infuriating or ambiguous.

Depression is a very serious problem and the US has one of the highest depression rates in the "first world." Rest in peace David Foster Wallace; I'm sad you weren't able to find it here.

</comment><comment><USER4> His essay about descriptive and prescriptive approaches to dictionary writing changed my life.

If you read the essay, you'll see it's actually about much more than that.

<comment><USER3> Could you please link to it (I tried finding it via google)?

Edit: I found this: <http://is.gd/2CpH>

Is that the one you were talking about?

<comment><USER5> [edit] -- That's it. I think the version in "Consider the Lobster", which is called "Authority and American Usage" is a bit longer, though

It's my second favorite essay of all time -- after DFW's "E Unibus Pluram"[1], which is television and, more broadly, the modern life of spectation.

[1] From "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> If this isn't "Hacker News" to you, it will be soon: start with "Consider The Lobster" or "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again", two amazing essay collections. The audiobook for "Lobster" is narrated by DFW and footnoted _in the audio_.

Here's a DFW piece on the McCain 2000 campaign for Rolling Stone, which is especially resonant this year:

[http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/18420304/the_weas...](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/18420304/the_weasel_twelve_monkeys_and_the_shrub)

</comment><comment><USER7> _Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings._

RIP DFW.

</comment><comment><USER8> Feeling slightly ashamed that I haven't heard of him earlier, I have a question to the HN crowd: How did you hear of him before?

It's a shame to hear of someone people respect this much post-mortem. I wonder if you can infer a body of work that's important today and published recently from a group of similar-minded people like HN.

<comment><USER9> I had the great luck to be given Infinite Jest by a friend who had read it, and I cannot praise it enough. It is by far the most amazing book I have ever read, achieving a clear and full vision into the world of its characters' internal thought processes to a degree I had not known was possible.

After reading Infinite Jest, I have struggled to find any author to equal its vitality, and have been frequently disappointed by the flat hollow fakeness of most works I have read since it, by authors both new to me (Paul Auster) and old (William Gibson).

His use of language has a kind of magical... it is hard to get exactly how he does it but his writing brings his characters alive.

I am crushed and saddened by his death and the tragedy of its cause. Depression haunts the people in many of our lives. It is a terrible disease made worse by the mistaken notion that melancholy is somehow noble or simply a fact of creativity, an illness to be proud of. It is certainly not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think Wallace was the greatest writer of his generation. Period. This news breaks my heart.

<comment><USER11> I think his generation is pretty close to this current one. Infinite Jest was the 90s, right? (I've never read it, sadly.)

I feel like the novel is winding down, actually. There's no great proliferation of ideas any more. The last great author I can think of was Beckett; after him, everybody I've read really seems to be struggling to do something new. Even Murakami (who, not counting Wallace, I think is the greatest of the generation) is less innovative than the authors who preceded him.

Is it possible that a novel as a pure-prose medium can be exhausted in terms of ideas? Because I think (and I've written rather extensively about this) that for the novel to go on, it'll have to evolve to match current technology, in the way that Coupland and Danielewski do it. But that means a departure from pure literature, in a way.</comment></comment>


Couple – Relationship App for Two - <AUTHOR> http://couple.me/

<comment><USER2> "Share Everything" \- That's either lazy copywriting or just creepy.</comment>


Webkey – Like ssh keys for the web - <AUTHOR> https://webkey-auth.github.io/ <comment><AUTHOR> So I just created this in the past 2 days. This should allow any website to do single-password auth with a much higher level of auth security and convenience for users (single password with potentially hours or days expiry, text-entry- less single-click authentication if the password hasn't expired yet).

I'm wondering if anyone is interested in using this, working on it, or evaluating its security. I think it should be secure, but I'm not an security expert. Would very much appreciate critique and suggestions.</comment>


SixXS – IPv6 Deployment and Tunnel Broker - <AUTHOR> https://www.sixxs.net/main/ <comment><USER2> SixXS don't take new customers anymore, and existing customers can't create new tunnels (existing tunnels will still work).</comment>


Turning One Kidney Into Ten - <AUTHOR> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/turning-one-kidney-into-ten/ <comment><USER2> I've been a critical care nurse for years. The hardest I've ever worked was on a 24 year old man, that tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head. His brain wasn't working so well, but the rest of his body was intact. And, the family was amazingly selfless and decided to donate his organs.

We couldn't get the study to prove his brain death until morning, and he was bleeding like a sieve. In 15 years of being a ER/ICU nurse, I've never given one single person more blood products. There was a team of 5 or 6 of us giving him massive transfusions, all to keep this young man's organs alive the rest of the night.

In this ICU, we also took care of patients that had just received kidney transplants. They are some of the most patient, long-suffering and most grateful people you'll ever meet. Why? Because for the previous three to five years, these people's lives have been consumed by having to go to dialysis three times a week for four hours a session. They can't live any other way, and a transplant gives them a new lease on life.

We were able to get the study to prove brain death the following morning, and the organ donation team harvested his organs.

Two weeks later, our ICU received a letter from the organ bank, giving us a brief update on each of the _24 people_ that received organs from this young man. It was one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had as a nurse.

All that to say, when organ donation happens, it's a truly beautiful thing, and one of those things that renews my hope in humanity. I've had the donor box checked on my driver's license for years. I'd encourage people to do the same.

</comment><comment><USER3> What I find disturbing in this piece is the seemingly massive false equivalency being perpetrated. Donating a kidney is not like giving blood. This is a major operation and carries with it an assortment of long-term health risks to both the donor and recipient (though, obviously, the recipient has essentially nothing to lose; long-term followup studies of live donors are still pretty small and not that informative)...yet the entire article seems predicated on "you'd be a monster _not_ to give up _at least_ one of your kidneys!" Where's that attitude coming from, exactly? Why not just toss a lung into the mix as well?

<comment><USER4> They assume existence of donors already willing to donate, there is no call for extra donations. It's just about how to do more efficient matching.

In this case "altruistic donor" could mean, for example, a mother with a sick kid, which she wants to save by donating her kidney, but it doesn't help because they are not a good match.

So she just gives her kidney to some random kid, with a hope that others in a similar situations would do the same, which would eventually lead to her kid getting a matching kidney.

Altruistic, because it's not guaranteed that her kid will get the _right_ kidney in time (only that there will be _some_ donated kidney left at the end). But if the "chain of trust" keeps going on, chances are high everybody would get the matching kidney.</comment></comment>


The Pebble smartwatch finally does real fitness tracking - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/15/10138298/pebble-health-tracking-update-stanford-smartwatch-fitness <comment><USER2> Fitness tracking and notifications are the two "killer apps" for my Apple Watch. It's exciting that Pebble has now added fitness to its existing notifications capability, especially now that they are working with Stanford.

I'd never used a FitBit or similar fitness tracker before getting my Apple Watch, but I had been a huge Garmin GPS watch fan for running and biking in the days before my iPhone had enough battery life to last for a run with GPS enabled.

At first I thought I was mostly going to use the Apple Watch in conjunction with planned activities like running a few miles - I certainly use it for that, in conjunction with Runkeeper - but now I also use the passive activity tracking to keep track of how I'm doing throughout the day.

I won't say that it's strictly because of the watch, but I'm now about as fit as I've ever been, and I think the easy glance over to see where I'm at is really helping with that.

<comment><USER3> > I won't say that it's strictly because of the watch, but I'm now about as > fit as I've ever been

I will gladly credit my Fitbit Aria scale for the same result.

Interestingly, it is less for the feedback if gives me in the short term and rather the long-term graphs. I know that if I want to manipulate the scale up or down in weight and fat percentage, I have to be consistent over really long periods of time. I almost never miss days running or at the gym, my days of heavy drinking are long behind me, and I feel orders of magnitude better than I have in years past. These systems really are fantastic tools, and show that the application of game mechanics can be a force for enacting strong positive change on a personal level.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Do any of these fancy fitness gadgets offer data analysis and reports without sending all my data to a remote server? Can't really fathom how few people seem have doubts about sending all their sleep and movement data to god knows who.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'd really like to see autonomous watches with GPS, providing minimal smartphone functionality (navigation, calls and messages), plus serious fitness tracking.

But at the same time I'm hesitant to wear one of those devices without reasonable guarantees big brother is not collecting data. Therefore, something like AsteroidOS seems ideal: [http://asteroidos.org/](http://asteroidos.org/)

<comment><USER6> You know about the Garmin watches, right? They'll do navigation and (some) message notifications.

Some reading:

[http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/winter-gadget- recommendat...](http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/winter-gadget- recommendations.html)

[http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/12/garmin- forerunner-630-dep...](http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/12/garmin- forerunner-630-depth-review.html)

Polar, TomTom etc have similar devices, but Garmin are probably the default choice.

<comment><USER5> Thanks, I've used Polar HRM since the late 90s, and then switched to Suunto GPS-enabled watches.

But I'd prefer something with a bit more features. Something that can replace very very casual smartphone use. Receive a short call, navigate somewhere. And track my fitness all the time, including HRM w/o band and blood pressure.

<comment><USER6> The VivoActive is pretty nice.

But no mainstream[1] smart watches can _replace_ a phone - they act to supplement it

[1] I think there is an LG watch with a SIM in it, but it has limited availability.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is cool, but can I easily dump and analyze my own data? Hopefully there is some API to foster visualization applications or at least a way to dump it externally. Needing to rely on one or some assortment of predefined apps always makes me feel like it's not my data.

<comment><USER8> If you're on iOS, my understanding is Pebble will write to the Health app.

From there you can analyze the data. You can't export directly using the app, but you can view all records or find one of many apps that support HealthKit which may possibly export for you.</comment></comment>


Is the Eurovision song contest rigged? An investigation using simple data visualisation. - <AUTHOR> http://successfulsoftware.net/2008/05/26/is-the-eurovision-song-contest-rigged/ A simple visualisation technique is used to investigate allegations of bloc voting in the Eurovision song contest. <comment><USER2> Rigged ? I don't think that anyone is meddling with tele-voting. However, it is true that some people vote accordingly to nationality more than to song quality. The principle is the same as in politics, where people are more likely to support someone from their state, regardless of his/hers views. Nothing new here, move on.

And, if I understand eurovision voting correctly, at least top 5 songs need many more points than just those of neighbouring countries.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm sad to see the Eurovision song contest mentioned here, not because I don't think this post has a place on HN because now our terrible secret has been revealed.

<comment><USER4> I'm glad actually. I've always thought a US-based "States Song Contest" would be really cool. 50 states, do it just like the Eurovision. I'm sure Simon Cowell could rig it up and make millions on the idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There are lot of immigrants from Balkans in Germany, France, Spain, UK, etc. and they vote for the countries of they origin.

</comment><comment><USER6> Or countries close to each other simply have more in common with each other culturally. This would result in something looking like "bloc voting" as well.

Does anyone even think it's possible to determine a songs "rating" objectively?

</comment><comment><USER7> No, its definately rigged, and I doubt the votes are taken from the user sms... Because I have been watching Eurovision for about 10 years now, before people voted at home... and which country votes for which has not changed...

It was news here in Spain that Franco (the dictator) bribed another country to vote for spain's entry one year... which happen to be the year that Cliff Richard almost won...

So basically the way I see it as is political voting... which a music competition tacked on...

</comment><comment><USER8> That map is almost good. If it showed the directions of its edges it'd be great.

This post makes me happy. For one thing, it's the best possible post to bring out the news.YC euros.

</comment><comment><USER9> It's blatently obvious that it's not about songs. It's just about which countries like other countries. Particularly all the Eastern countries vote for each other.

Most of the votes could be and were predicted by Terry Wogan.

The best reason to keep the Eurovision though is as a stark warning to what would happen if the UK integrates any further with Europe.

<comment><USER10> Of course, it's not only about the songs. That would be a gross simplification.

However, it's also a gross simplification to say it's just about which countries like other countries.

For example: I'm writing this from Norway, which finished (they tell me) the best of all Western European countries. Now, Terry Wogan would argue that this is because of "Scandinavian Bloc" voting, but the fact of the matter is that you could remove the points given to Norway by Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland, and give them to England, and Norway would still be far ahead of England in terms of points.

In fact, England is a great example of how Wogan's theory breaks down-- of 43 countries voting, only 2 chose England's song to be in the top 10 of 25 options. _Every single country involved_ liked some one or more Eastern European song better than England's, _independent of geographical location or political alliance._

So, let's not pretend it's _all_ political-- some of it actually appears to relate to the music.

<comment><USER9> What? That's just it... It is political - No one in Europe likes the UK. That's why we loose every time.

If we had a time machine, and took the winning Russian entry, and entered it as the UK song, I completely believe we would still have come last.

Personally, I'd say some of the blame lies with our pro-bush politics and stance on Iraq.

Eurovision has just ended up as a farce. The west put in all the money, and the east all vote for each other, and win.

<comment><USER10> Huh? Norway has had a long love-affair with the UK-- many older Norwegians served in the UK armed forces in the war.

Honestly: my nine-year-old daughter voted for Latvia (the Pirates), and described the UK entry as "the worst", even though her grandparents live in the UK, and she has absolutely no relationship to Latvia whatsoever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Sounds like a problem for the Stephen D Levitt -like people of our world.</comment>


Pursuit of Serverless Architecture: What if we didn't need app servers anymore? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/in-pursuit-of-serverless-architecture/what-if-we-didn-t-need-an-app-server-anymore-f5b6586c58f4 <comment><USER2> You don't need to run a "backend" if you're trying to empower the people who use your software rather than just hold them captive.

Who ever thought hacking meant "building centralized services to sell to plebes"?

<comment><USER3> Does the FSF own their office space and own their generator, or are they using Electricity As A Service and a Building As A Service. For a lot of people, maintaining a server and service is much much more hassle, and much more distracting than the payoff would be, and thus, contract it out. I have quite a few non-technical oriented friends who would not be able to figure out the decentralized solutions that have been bandied about, nor do they care. If you want something decentralized, make something better, rather than just bitching.

<comment><USER4> Look into the Freedombox project. They are building something better. It aims to provide a personal server for everyone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Those interested in serverless "backends" should check out JAWS ([https://github.com/jaws-framework/JAWS](https://github.com/jaws- framework/JAWS)), as they've done a great job building out a framework around this very idea.

Apparently they've got a big update coming Monday, so keep an eye out.

EDIT: Not sure where to put the quotes... "serverless" backends, serverless "backends", both, or none? :P

</comment><comment><USER6> If you are also a little disappointed that this is not no servers but someone else's servers, maybe you'll like this project which really is serverless. [http://thaliproject.org/](http://thaliproject.org/)

</comment><comment><USER7> AWS Lambda is awesome -- for about a month, I was head over heels in love with it. However, the language support turns out to be a huge issue. If Javascript, Python, or Java 8 isn't the right tool for the job, you're stuck. I hear Go, and then Ruby, support is slated for 2016. I am optimistic that as time goes on, language and binary support will make this the future of computing.

<comment><USER8> I wonder what "go support" means. Would that not just executing a binary? If data is passed to it via a file handle, wouldn't that mean any executable would work? Or will you give it source code?

I know you don't have the answers, just stuff I think about when go support for lambda is discussed.

<comment><USER9> I'm just guessing based on my experience with Amazon's Kinesis Client Library ([http://docs.aws.amazon.com/kinesis/latest/dev/developing- con...](http://docs.aws.amazon.com/kinesis/latest/dev/developing-consumers- with-kcl.html)), but it probably means that you write something as a package with certain public methods, and they have a wrapper around it that knows how to invoke it. That's how KCL integrates with the languages that it supports.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Before you go planning to build everything on Lambda, understand there's still no VPC support, so no RDS databases. "AWS Lambda functions cannot currently access resources behind a VPC."

<comment> shawn-butler As I recall that was announced as coming before the EOY 2015.

I wonder if anyone from AWS can confirm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's not serverless if you use Amazon; it's just that you're using Amazon's servers. There is hardware, and there is the signal, and then there is a chain of software between the two. That is all there is in computing, and all there ever will be.

<comment><USER12> I think what he's getting at is that he gets backend functionality without ever deploying and managing instances himself (similar to what App Engine offers).

You just deploy your code, and Amazon automagically handles scaling, etc.

<comment><USER13> I think it's the pay-on-demand bit that is crucial.

Heroku is fine for that, but they spin your instances down, so the first request may well time out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> What is serverless? Serverless is simply on demand pay per operation billing for servers.

</comment><comment><USER15> Google App Engine. This is what App Engine does.

<comment><USER16> This is newer and shinier, and not all use cases overlap, but at the end of the day, yes its someone else managing the execution of your processes.

Having worked on GAE in a very large scale, my gut thinks that while this has many different use cases, it will make sense for small to medium size projects, and there will be a tipping point surrounding cost and this will appear less like a silver bullet after some horror stories.

At small scale this may even save money, if you truly don't need your code running all the time, and can deal with latency of starting your code. For projects that think terms of N thousands of transactions per second, the math breaks down real badly. It would cost approximately $2,500 dollars to run a 100ms job a billion times in a month on a machine with only 1.5GB of allocated to this process. You could pay $4350 per year w/ reserved pricing (is there even reserved pricing w/ Lambda? Couldn't find it.) for a c3.4xlarge, which has 30 gigs of memory and 16 cores, which could easily process many more times work than a billion 100ms jobs per month. So lambda seemingly works out well over 6x more than rolling it yourself on EC2 with my overly conservative napkin math.

The other pain point these type of systems produce is that instead of scaling a server here or a few servers there, your thinking in terms of processes, and time and time again this becomes a very rapid way to not only provision more horsepower instantly, but also run up the bill instantly. Code that might have ran on 1000 processes on traditional infrastructure because you had to tune it to fit in that infrastructure (and I don't mean fine tuned, things like, setting your database pool correctly and having basic concurrency), can accidentally be scaled up to 10,000 processes and appear that everything is fine. Unfortunately have seen this quite a bit on GAE and lead to some very costly mistakes.

Processes are harder (in my humble opinion) to have a good feel for what costs what, especially if your scaling up rapidly. Instead of adding a few servers and understanding how that effects the bill, going from 1000 to 1500 processes happens much easier, and you pay for that convenience.

My .02 is that this would be ideal if your either in a hurry and money is no object, or you don't plan on growing past a certain size, or possibly for workloads that are truly not running that often. I think this whole craze of lets replace everything with lambda is going to lead to rapid development (awesome) at high prices if your project takes off, which will leave developers rushing to get off of it if/when their project needs to scale with financial constraints. (not awesome)

<comment><USER17> Agree.

With AWS, once you start using multiple services (e.g. lambda, S3, dynamo db, etc), it's difficult to estimate/model the costs in advance.

First you have to estimate how many times your app is pulling down a file or hitting a given db table. But this is dependent on unpredictable user behavior. You don't really know what users will do with your app until they actually do it.

Then, with e.g. Dynamo DB, you have to think about how many indexes you have on a table, and how often your app will query those vs how many times your app might do a full table scan. You have to allocate these specially defined AWS resource units. I don't find it intuitive.

I wonder how many developers really know in advance what their app is going to cost per user.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The title may be a little bit funky, but guys, this is a great post to lead someone through the nightmare that are the Lambda/API Gateway docs and setup process. I tried doing something similar about a week ago while not operating at full brain capacity, and could not figure it out. This is a great narrative of how someone figured it out, and it was great to follow along and actually learn.

</comment><comment><USER19> Big misunderstanding here: it's not "server-less" (as in without-a-server), it's Serverless (as in "these products we're trying to sell through HN"...)

You need your users to be able to share information between them? You will need a server at some point. Period.

Call it miraculous AWS or whatever, it's still a server.

</comment><comment><USER20> Someone was recently credited for an idea that has just been around forever? "Fred George, a former colleague & mentor at Thoughtworks is widely credited as one of the originators of the concept of microservices."

<comment><USER18> I think Fred George was working on this kind of stuff back in the 70s.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Firebase does a good job with this model. As does Parse.

<comment><USER22> They do a pretty good job, yes. I've been building something on Parse, and the biggest issue I've run into is that they don't allow for npm modules. Smaller modules can be ported to parse cloud code, but if you have an interesting module with native code or just many dependencies, this becomes unworkable.

Firebase doesn't have a Cloud Code like offering at the moment, which can be very limiting depending on what you're building.

<comment><USER23> Now we actually recommend you run a full node environment on Heroku or another provider, and use webhooks. See [https://github.com/parseplatform/parse-cloud- express](https://github.com/parseplatform/parse-cloud-express) and [https://github.com/parseplatform/cloudcode- express](https://github.com/parseplatform/cloudcode-express)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I was going to make a joke about the there no longer being a need for servers as we have the "cloud".

Then i read the article...

</comment><comment><USER25> "Adding a backend to solve problems with a static site. Now you have two problems."

</comment><comment><USER26> Reminds me of nobackend.org</comment>


Comprehensive Python Decorator Tutorial with Example - <AUTHOR> http://blog.apcelent.com/python-decorator-tutorial-with-example.html?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=marketing&utm_campaign=blog <comment><USER2> Decorators in Python - Despite the name, Python decorators are not an implementation of the decorator pattern. The decorator pattern is a design pattern used in statically typed object-oriented programming languages to allow functionality to be added to objects at run time; Python decorators add functionality to functions and methods at definition time, and thus are a higher-level construct than decorator-pattern classes. So in Python a decorator is any callable Python object that is used to modify a function, method or class definition.</comment>


New MacBook Air released, pricing now starts at $999, features Magic Keyboard - <AUTHOR> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/03/new-macbook-air-has-more-to-love-and-is-now-just-999/ <comment><USER2> > the new inverted-"T" arrangement for the arrow keys makes them easier to > find without looking down

Heh, leave it to Apple to congratulate themselves for going back to a design that they already had earlier and that everyone else uses.

<comment><USER3> reminds me of my favorite post in response to the latest macbook pro keyboard (can't remember if I saw it here or on reddit).

> When we changed the key travel from 1.0mm to 0.5mm, it was so much better > that it became the best keyboard in the world. And now, with the change from > 0.5mm to 1.0mm, we've made it even better than ever: Welcome to the world's > best typing experience.

<comment><USER4> You saw it at [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523873](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523873) , no doubt. (-:

<comment><USER3> ty for tracking down the source. truly a great comment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This looks like a decent MBA, however it feels a little bit too late.

I got rid of my MBA 2013 in 2018, in hopes to get a proper replacement, but the unreliable keyboard and weak spec stopped me from getting one. Eventually, I got tired of waiting. Tried linux, first at work (with System76/Pop!_OS), then at my home laptop (Manjaro and Pop!_OS), and I don't think I'm coming back to Apple.

Yes, linux requires some adjustments to your workflows and playflows, but I was surprised how little. And as with everything, the more you are at it, the easier and more natural it becomes.

The only thing I'm really missing is iOS development. However, that might be a good thing, and if I really need to do it I've got a MBP 2012 waiting for me in the basement (although, it will be obsolete really soon).

<comment><USER6> My problem is the Apple track pad and physical form is just so hard to beat. I could take my Macbook with me wherever I went because of how light and slim/small it is.

If anyone has some decent alternatives which I could load up Ubuntu on I'm all ears.

On a Desktop I would pick some flavor of Debian in an instance.

<comment><USER5> I tried quite a few replacements, including ThinkPad X1 and LG gram. Something felt off in all cases, until I realized that 16:10 aspect ratio for 13in laptop was key. That frankly eliminated quite a few options. Additionally, X1's trackpad and Gram's keyboard felt quite bad.

At the end, in a whim, I tried a cheap Motile 142 from walmart ($329 at the time). 14in monitor seems to offset the aspect ratio quite well, the trackpad and keyboard are decent. Additionally, it is Amd 3500U, which seems well supported by the newer kernels. Upgrading with 16gb ram and NVMe ssd, also pushed the performance and usability of the machine.

At the end, I don't think there is an universal answer to this. But with some experimentation, I'm pretty sure you can find a nice machine that works well for you.

PS: Motile laptop is also 2.55 lbs, which is a great weight for that size.

<comment><USER7> The new XPS 13 is 16:10 and has a good trackpad, supposedly.

<comment><USER8> XPS trackpads have been pretty awesome for years. Source: Owned an XPS 13 a couple years ago.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> For folks wondering, Magic Keyboard refers to Apple going back to scissor switches as opposed to the super-high failure rate butterfly keyboards that they had to extend warranties for.

Pro tip/Side note: Don't but a 2016-2019 MacBook as they have faulty keyboards. Even with the extended warranty Apple had to offer for all of them, when they break, Apple replaces them with another of the faulty design ones.

<comment><USER9> do you mean 2016?

<comment><USER8> Ack, yes. Fixed! Thanks

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The MacMini has also been updated, from the MacBook Air newsroom article, at the bottom of the page:

``` Mac mini Also Updated Today

Whether they are using it as a desktop computer, a music and movie storage hub for the family, or as a code compile server for Xcode, customers love Mac mini. The standard configurations of Mac mini now come with double the storage capacity. The $799 configuration now comes standard with 256GB, while the $1,099 configuration features 512GB of storage, and every Mac mini is made from 100 percent recycled aluminum. ```

<comment><USER11> $300 for a 256GB storage upgrade. Apple being Apple

<comment><USER12> There are other differences besides the storage.

<comment><USER3> what are they? looks like they're still using the latest intel cpus from two years ago.

<comment><USER12> Between the models, not compared to previous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Why in this case would I buy the Macbook Pro?

                          *AIR*            *PRO*

$: 1300 1300

SSD(GB): 512 128

RAM(GB): 8 (3.7GHz) 8(2.1 GHz)

CPU * : i5 i5

Graphics: Intel Iris + Intel Iris +

Display: Retina w/ True Tone Retina w/ TrueTone

Touch ID: Yes Yes

Thunderbolt3 Ports: 2 2

* the Air's CPU is 30% slower but can be boosted to match the Pro's

Guys what am I missing here? Isn't the Air just a better option?

</comment><comment><USER14> Not unusual for Apple, but I still think it takes a lot of gall to go back to the way the keyboard _used_ to work, instead of their shitty butterfly mechanism keyboard, and call it "Magic".

<comment><USER15> Apple has long had a "Magic" keyboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Magic Keyboard = scissor mechanism (what the latest MBP 16" uses).

<comment><USER17> For clarity, this is the keyboard that people seem to find reasonable (vs the years of "mbp kbds are the worst"), right?

<comment><USER18> I love how a keyboard that works is not considered a "feature" on a Mac. My apple IIc keyboard still working great.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Hope to see a 11" one as well. I <3 my 2015 Air. It's small but simply does everything I need. At home I plug it to a bigger screen and my Model M keyboard and it's the perfect desktop. When I travel it easily fits in any bag and I hardly notice it.

<comment><USER20> Still think the 12" MacBook they had was their best design ever. Hope it makes a spiritual comeback soon.

<comment><USER21> Yeah, I've been burned by Apple's poor software many times, but I would come back for an 11-12" laptop with more than one USB port. They were so close...

Is that too much to ask? From any OEM?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Still massive bezels though. They could draw some inspiration from screen implementation of huawei matebook series with nearly no bezels. Can't vouch for their durability however.

<comment><USER23> It's a big improvement with regards to bezels but they still have a lot of room for further improvement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Can't wait to see the benchmarks of the base model i3 vs the quad-core i5. $999 base config having 256GB SSD is nice, $1299 for 512GB of storage isn't too bad, either.

</comment><comment><USER25> TBH I thought I would be hanging on for the forthcoming 14" MBP to replace my trusty 2012 MBA... but this ticks all the boxes

I'll still be sad to lose the SD card slot though

</comment><comment><USER23> CPU options:

\- i3 1.1Ghz dual core 4MB L3

\- i5 1.1GHz quad core 6MB L3

\- i7 1.2GHz quad core 8MB L3

any more details?

<comment><USER26> Leave it to Wikipedia to always be on the cutting edge with this stuff:

1.1 GHz 1000G1 dual-core Intel Core i3, Turbo Boost 3.2 GHz, with 4 MB L3-cache

optional 1.1 GHz 1030G4 quad-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost 3.5 GHz, with 6 MB L3-cache

or

1.2 GHz 1060G7 quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost 3.8 GHz, with 8 MB L3-cache at time of purchase

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Technical_specific...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Air#Technical_specifications_3)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> <start of rant>

if apple sold a licence for macos we can cut this BS and besides , i can only see audio professionals and graphic designers getting their monies worth. I get the argument about the "eco-system" but at what cost would you buy it though. you get outdated hardware with STFU prices. will we ever come to a consensus Linux distro and get rid of these idiots ( mac , windows ) .<end of rant>

</comment><comment><USER28> Maximum RAM is 16 GB, that is not, what I would consider future proof for 5-6 years.

</comment><comment><USER29> Still no 13'' MacBook on offer with more than 16GB memory :(

</comment><comment><USER30> How are they planning to produce these exactly?

<comment><USER31> Isn't general production ramping up in China?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> $300 extra for 512GB drive?

16 GB max?

Pass</comment>


Apple sued over 'shrinking' gadget storage - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30655176

<comment><USER2> A fair enough lawsuit. I usually get the cheapest models (16gb) and if you take photos + videos (including slow mo 120fps) your storage is virtually useless. They really shouldn't even make 16gb models anymore, but its a smart business strategy to hit price discriminate segments.</comment>


Show HN: Free and anonymous mock interviews for tech - <AUTHOR> https://www.interviewbit.com/mock_interview/?ref=hn <comment><USER2> I have taken a mock interview and my experience was amazing. My peer seemed to be as skilled as me and the problems were challenging enough. This had a feature where the interviewer is shown hints and gotchas to enhance interviewer experience.

I got to learn things as an interviewer and interviewee. I would definitely suggest others to use it.

</comment><comment><USER3> How do you guys match an interviewer with an interviewee? Its a fairly interesting problem to find best possible match for a interview setting. Might extend to figuring out who is a best suited interviewer for a candidate out of whole pool of interviewers at a company.

<comment><AUTHOR> We look at various parameters : Current company ( We match people from similar companies and never from the same company ) / university / coding performances across websites, including InterviewBit / interaction with design content on InterviewBit. Based on that, we match people with almost similar backgrounds and enable them to interview each other. If you are already interviewing through InterviewBit, we give higher preference to finding a peer who is currently working at one of the companies you might interview at. A similar matching happens to figure out the problem to be asked from you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> Is this only for gaining exposure to real world interviews or does it help in practicing programming problems also?</comment>


THN Magazine Stole Our Code and Design - <AUTHOR> http://blog.hackermonthly.com/the-hacker-news-magazine.html <comment><USER3> In my opinion, on first examination, the layouts are fairly generic in their particular similarities, and the copy text and specifics different enough as to possibly not be a clone but rather just a site with a similar design.

However, that changes when we see that the css file has been copied exactly. That makes a much stronger case that they may have started with your design and altered it just enough to seem to be different.

<comment><USER4> What is written in the first paragraph is used way too often to excuse plagiarism. The probability that starting with a blank HTML page and working honestly you will end up with a design that similar to somebodies else one is very, very close to 0 even for simple pages like this one. Completely the same menu item width, pixel by pixel the same drop shadow, same fonts, same widths etc. There are literally at least millions of variations of a design similar in style with various small subtle differences, there are too many tiny decisions to be made (with many outcomes being pretty much equally good) to make similarity that close just possible by chance and to make 3 or 4 differences plausible evidence for this work being original.

<comment><USER3> Has the term plagiarism been used before for lifting layouts? Copying to be sure. Look and feel though aren't copyrightable, though yes, copyright is different from plagiarism.

As I tried to make clear, that the css file is stolen straight out, that's clearly plagiarism/theft of that file. And even though the file lacks a copyright notice such notices are no longer strictly required.

The layouts of course look very similar because they are both using the same css to set everything up.

That all said, Helvetica/Arial in menu categories, Georgia as body font and 40px margins is something on a lot of sites. These are quite generic settings. There's not a lot of leeway possible for something like margins, there's a small finite range of reasonable settings. It's expected that many sites will have the same ones.

It's also exceptionally common to have a logo in upper left, section selections to the right, a bar at the top, and text with margins below it. This is a completely standard web layout.

Even seeing everything here exactly the same but with different text, sections _and_ css files, it would no longer be certain to be cloned, but entirely possible to be just another person using a standard web layout with the same settings.

How many typewritten letters have I received with 0.5" or 1" margins? A lot. Sent a lot too. Margin settings are not intellectual property at all, neither is font selection, especially when choosing completely standard web fonts in the same way that is used by many sites. Even if someone did peek at their css and "steal" their 40px setting because they like those margins, it's not theft to do so. Stealing the entire layout by copying the css file, yeah, that's a problem though.

<comment><USER4> Have you ever designed a web page from scratch?

Let's assume I also decided to design a site with the same core layout - a bar on the top with the logo and the menu, content on the bottom, that's not unusual as you point out, but already a coincidence. However, I have to decide on the height of the top bar - is any value between 40 and 60 objectively better than all the other ones so that everyone deciding on this kind of design would settle on the same one? Next step, I decide on a drop shadow below the top bar, again a reasonable coincidence. Again however, a graphic program will typically require to specify the color, the opacity and the radius of the shadow with thousands of combinations possible that look almost the same aesthetically so there is no reason people would pick one over another very often. Then you decide for the color of the highlight of the button, again, there are hundreds of colors that give almost the same effect visually but they "picked" _exactly_ the same one. It's the same with many other small nuances, font size, line height, border color, link color etc.

Even if there would be just 10 rational choices in each step, with 20 steps (both values way underestimated) that's already 10* *20 possible combinations. If you create a design in a space of a 20 dimensions and a total of 10 trillions of possibilities having differences in say 3 of the dimensions cannot serve as a defence. Hence almost always when people bring this argument up a closer examination shows little signs of plain old copy-paste beyond any reasonable doubt, just like the example with google analytics people point out below.

<comment><USER3> I'm not even sure what you are claiming at this point. We all agree that there was copying in some direction with THIS particular example since the css files are identical. And who knows, maybe they both independently copied from a third party like a library of layouts. But I am presuming C copied from B here and not C and B from A. Regardless, the fact it is identical is far more than coincidence.

As far as using the same web layout as far as having header footer menu and columns it's not even a coincidence, it's just a standard layout. It's not a coincidence that someone else has a red car, they are very common.

I will address the issue of whether a layout that looks similar is definitely a copy. I don't agree with that.

Is using "0px 2px 5px #CCC;" as drop shadow settings proof of copying as you are claiming? Absolutely not. It is not some obscure color, it's GRAY. _Gray drop shadows are very common._ The assertion that the other settings are too particular or unique among billions of possibilities is completely absurd. You really think this is the only site with this drop shadow setting? I will bet you $500,000 it is not. Warning: I already checked. That is not surprising at all. 0px for horizontal offset is not just common but required for shadows coming from an above light source. 2px vertical offset is common as well. 5x blurring is common as well. The entire combination is common and obvious as well. But let's say some random site has 3px vertical offset instead. It's going to look quite similar to one with 2px. Is it a copy or not then? Can't tell from just that, it's irrelevant in fact. Two sites that look similar on the web, using generic common layouts, are not necessarily copies of each other. Even if they use a lot of the same colors and drop shadow settings and margins, especially when we are not talking about #CCC and not a color like #12dca9. It is also not uncommon to have white background behind text and a single pixel grey border. That is on thousands of sites. As is the light grey background. Google finds "background: #F9F9F9" on over 500,000 pages, many predating the existence of HM's domain name registration. Did they steal background: #F9F9F9 from others? Probably. I mean, why #f9 and not #f8. #F9 is a bit of an odd choice. HNM at least used blue for their masthead background. HM uses: #F60. Where have we seen that exact shade of orange before? Hint: it was "stolen" by HM from the top of this page you are looking at. This leads to another problem. Hacker is a common term. Hacker News is reasonably generic, but it is known as being this site. When I see a site that says "Hacker Monthly, the print magazine of Hacker News" and uses the exact same recognizable color scheme as Hacker News, I definitely assume that it is run by the same company. Only if I scroll down to the bottom do I see a "not affiliated" disclaimer. This is quite confusing given that it claims to be "the print magazine OF Hacker News". That is obvious confusion in the public, and the name, claim to be "of Hacker News", and exact color scheme match is a clear trademark violation.

<comment><USER4> There are lots of pages that use this particular drop shadow but there are also lots of other possible and very popular variants of this particular setting. I am not arguing any of the settings by itself is likely to be unique, I am arguing that once you have 30 or 50 decisions like that to make, each even with just a few reasonable possibile solutions, it is very highly unlikely two persons will chose the same _combination_ of solutions in the majority of the decisions, even if the CSS to achieve the effect would be different, just because there are so many possibilities. And many decisions are much more arbitrary than the examples shown so far, like choosing the way you present the past issues of your magazine.

If we are sitting next to each other and are told to write down a random 50 character long string built from digits from 1 to 5 and we would end up having the same digits on 30 positions, with long subsequences being the same (= many decisions regarding closely related design parameters being the same), would you be more willing to attribute it to chance or to one of us copying from another?

<comment><USER3> The random character situation is a false comparison since that is not the case here.

What exactly are you arguing for? My original post makes that point that this is definitely a violation since there IS exact copying of the CSS file. And yes, the copied Google analytics id makes it 100% sure.

We are then arguing not about exact copying of text but about very similar layouts. I am saying very similar layouts are not proof of copying. You are saying they are. OK. That's your position, I have mine. The arguments you have used are weak and rather than concede any of them when their flaws are pointed out you just start making new claims. Therefore this could go on forever and never be resolved. So let's end it, all right?

I do understand you are fascinated with this particular case. Let's talk about that.

I've never seen anyone file a CSS file with the copyright office, therefore it's unlikely this CSS file is filed. That means that, while their copying is illegal and a copyright violation, any lawsuit would result only in _actual damages_ and not statutory damages, per US copyright law. (We'll assume this case gets filed in the US as claims with parties in two different countries are nearly impossible for small concerns to prosecute.) There are no actual damages though, so it's a pointless waste of money to pursue a case.

So what to do? Name and shame, what they are doing here. That's the best approach since they are 100% certain there was copying going on, and any reasonable jury would see that, therefore there is no risk of a defamation claim, they are stating facts.

Is this sufficient? I say no. Who is the person who lazily copied the CSS file rather than be a pro and write his own? His name should be disclosed publicly and he should forever be blacklisted from the industry. That's the way to do it. Who is their layout guy that checked in this file? They need to state his name and particulars so everyone knows to avoid him. His career needs to be over, permanently. That's how to stop the widespread thievery going on. If The Hacker News Magazine will not disclose the name of the person who did this and fire him immediately, The Hacker News Magazine should be boycotted, along with all its affiliates because such behavior can not be tolerated in our industry of creative professionals. _If_ THNM agrees to fire him and disclose his name, _and_ redoes their layout to be original work, _then_ their inevitable CEO apology could be considered sincere. Without firing and disclosure though, any apology would just be an admission they are only sorry they got caught stealing, and such apology could not be considered sincere.

<comment><USER4> _The random character situation is a false comparison since that is not the case here._

It is a useful model of the situation, you have 50 (lets say) decisions to make (border color, margin height, number of images per row, ...), each with 5 (lets say) equally likely outcomes (#666 is quite as good and popular as #777,#888,#555,#444; 1.0em like 1.5 em,0.5em,2.0em,2.5em; ...). All I'm saying is that you cannot explain that many visual and conceptual solutions being the same with chance alone, since that is an event with very low probability if you honestly perform each decision by yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have an average high speed Internet connection and the 4 images you have on this post take forever to load the first time.

Turns out you're loading giant images (with original dimensions in the neighborhood of 1421x1352 and a filesize of 2mb) into an <img> with dimensions in the neighborhood of 570x542.

If you only need an image of size 570x542, please resize your images for the web and use those resized images in your post, rather than 2mb originals. This will help people load your page much faster and have a more pleasant experience reading your post.

Thanks. :)

<comment><USER6> Fixed :)

<comment><USER5> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> They also appear to have failed to change the Google Analytic account number: " var _gaq = _gaq || []; _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-160215-2']); _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']); "

Normally I'm pretty pro-code-reuse, but that is just lazy-sauce.

<comment><USER8> This very thing happened when I was working at $LAST_COMPANY. Another company took our entire site design, fiddled with it a bit and published their site. The didn't change the Google Analytics and we found a new competitor because they showed up in our Google Analytics reports.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Hmm, so someone ripped of your site, and just enough of it is different, that it's probably best to just shrug it off and keep working on your site.

But wait, there is a comment in the CSS that clearly shows that they ripped it off! This changes everything!

Actually, no, it doesn't. This is a distraction. When something weird/awkward like this happens it's probably best to leave it out of the conversation. It would be different if rather than a comment it had been some non-trivial code that directly added functionality to the site, or improved the look and feel. But this is debugging material.

BTW I like Hacker Monthly but I don't currently use it, because I'm already fairly comfortable with how I consume articles here. Keep up the good work, though!

<comment><USER10> Ripping off a site's look and feel is not generally illegal, it's just scummy. However, that (irrelevant) comment in the CSS shows that it is at least somewhat a derivative work, which _is_ often illegal.

<comment><USER7> I think it's only scummy if it sets out to confuse users as to which site they are on. Changing both the font and the color scheme would seem to make that less likely.

Otherwise, emulating decent look-and-feel is often a good thing: it is how we come to better designs and users with predictable expectations.

<comment><USER11> it's not an emulation -- it has hasn't been re-implemented. When you compare the CSS you see it is a complete copy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Plenty of sites have generic layouts that are clearly "inspired" by other sites. But blatantly re-purposing an entire site's code goes too far. You are right to call them out.

Will this fiasco harm your business? Probably not. If anything, enjoy the extra boost in traffic and sales.

</comment><comment><USER13> Weird. The most common refrain here about copyright violations is that it isn't theft since nothing has been taken from you and you don't have any less than you did before.

Does that only apply to content creators outside this community?

<comment><USER14> Here we go again!

This community almost universally finds copyright infringement to be fine, but plagiarism to be not-fine. There is nothing inconsistent in this position and, while you don't have to agree with it, it's an entirely reasonable opinion to hold.

In other words, if you redistribute stuff without permission, it's generally not that heinous, but if you take credit for it too, you'll get severe looks of disapproval.

<comment><USER15> > This community almost universally finds copyright infringement to be fine, > but plagiarism to be not-fine.

What about software? I can't think of any example, for instance, where this community reacted to a story of a GPL violation by almost universally saying it is fine.

<comment><USER16> The fact that the GPL uses copyright law is just an implementation detail. In practice, it really turns copyright on itself. In general, when somebody infringes on a normal copyright, they are making some work more accessible. When somebody breaks the GPL, they are making some work _less_ accessible, because all the GPL does is ensure that anyone can practically and legally modify and redistribute the software in question. If we imagine a copyright spectrum where the default copyright is _x_ and public domain is 0, then the GPL is _-x_.

So opposing copyright in general but supporting the GPL is actually an entirely consistent and rational position.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Funny enough I just read this article and thread and moved on... While googling for some stuff, I ran across this site: <http://nerdinthebasement.com/> Looks exactly like BOTH yours and the offending site, just a color change... I don't think there's anything special about the design that would warrant calling wolf, other than the fact of the CSS comment showing he did actually rip the design...

What I'm saying? I don't know. Designs are designs, nothing revolutionary about this one... Shrug it off, and move on.

<comment><USER18> You need to actively fight against unethical behavior if you want to help prevent it from becoming the norm, and that's everyone's responsibility.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> It would appear that THN has been previously called out for plagiarism by Attrition.org back in January:

<http://attrition.org/errata/plagiarism/thehackernews/>

CSS and HTML aren't the only things 'Mohit Kumar' copies, it would appear.

</comment><comment><USER20> If you believe you have a case, and it's worth your time (and money) take $300 and go have a lawyer draft a letter tell them to cease and desist.

IANAL (see above) but if it's a 100% clear cut case of IP theft, and you have some ownership of the IP that's been stolen, I think you can even file a DMCA takedown request to whoever is hosting their material.

<comment><USER21> I don't understand this instant knee-jerk reaction to call the lawyers out and bandy about the idea of a lawsuit. Public shame is powerful, and is often much more efficient than the legal system at solving the actual problem.

<comment><USER22> The combination of public shame and a very basic legal request is often much more powerful than either in isolation.

<comment><USER23> Never play an ace when a two will do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> In spite of its problems, I'd consider subscribing to The Hacker News Magazine if this article makes it into the next issue of the magazine.

</comment><comment><USER25> well, the internet is as the biggest unofficial open source project ever, just because you can do view-source on ever website there is. copying parts (even big parts) of a site you like is not only common practice, but also great for innovation. just imagine how the web would look like if tim berners-lee would have chosen a flash like technology for the web? (my guess: we would not have the internet, we would live in the microsoftnet (as they are great in getting market share in closed source economies))

yes, they could have worked a little harder to give their site a little bit more "originality", but other than that, it is the internet way.

i have cloned (parts of) hundreds of websites, any my websites (and parts of it) were cloned even more often, even before github.

be flattered, move on (with your great magazine).

<comment><USER26> You don't seem to see the distinction between being able to see the source and being legally able to reuse that source.

Copyright still applies.

<comment><USER25> i see a distinction, but a too strict interpretation of copyright is bad for the web and innovation. i'm glad there (still) is a view-source option in every browser, and i'm glad people still use it.

view-source is how i started into webdevelopement in the nineties (remember, there was no github), and i'm glad people still use it (i do).

<comment><USER27> I agree that View Source is good, and stumbling on that option is how I started to learn HTML as well. What people are saying here is that View Source->Copy->Paste->Profit is bad. View Source->Learn->Reinvent->Profit is fine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is a straightforward copyright violation. Why is it an issue requiring public shaming? Issue a DMCA takedown notice of the entire site to the site owners and also to <http://www.directi.com/> which appears to be hosting the site (via orderbox-dns.com) I think. Then watch the sparks fly.

<comment><USER29> Please don't listen to this person's call to use something like the DMCA. You've done the right thing, calling them out. Honestly, Hacker News based magazines (like Hacker Monthly, which I subscribe to and enjoy) cater to a very niche market that, I suspect, will hold far greater respect for pointing out their obvious stealing of your design/layout/whatever than you pursuing a legal recourse of action.

I, for one, applaud Hacker Monthly's response and actions. Had they pointed out their sending a DMCA takedown notice, I would have lost respect for them. You're doing the right thing. Stay the course! We're behind you all the way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> The "@override <http://hm.local> is still there.

Sheesh, it takes someone quite clever to copy code comments linking back to the original code.

ed: phrasing corrected

<comment><USER30> I found someone that copied one of our websites because they copied it so exactly that they included the corporate logo in the footer, which had a link back to our corporate website. I noticed the odd referrer URL in a click through to our corporate site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Check out both sites side by side: [http://th.isandth.at/#leftTarget=http%3A//hackermonthly.com/...](http://th.isandth.at/#leftTarget=http%3A//hackermonthly.com/issues.html&rightTarget=http%3A//magazine.thehackernews.com/issues.html) (not great on mobile devices)

</comment><comment><USER32> I am not familiar with hackermonthly but they seem to "reprint" material that was popular on HN. Is all that content actually correctly licensed to be used in that way? Just wondering how those logistics are working... contacting all the individual authors, working out the terms &c.

<comment><USER6> I've blogged about our workflow: <http://blog.hackermonthly.com/making-hacker- monthly.html>

<comment><USER32> Cool, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> The irony that HM is simply repurposing of HN content is not lost on many.

<comment><USER34> You must be new here. That's the whole point. So that regulars who don't have time to read HN every day can get a curated weekly list of the best content we may have missed.

PS - the difference is attribution.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I guess the whole fiasco has given more visibility to "thehackermonthly.com"... Some people say "All news is good news".

<comment><USER36> 'There's no such thing as bad publicity'

I thought it was from a UK celebrity publicist but it seems not: [http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/there-is-no-such-thing- as...](http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/there-is-no-such-thing-as-bad- publicity.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Oh, so _now_ copying is theft?

<comment><USER38> The HN readership does not hold one consistent set of opinions, so pointing out the irrationality of the behavior of the group would seem to be a waste of time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Boo hoo. It's just bootstrap anyway.

</comment><comment><USER40> The link title needs to change, i.e. remove the 'how' from it (this is not on the linked post).

</comment><comment><USER41> Actually at first sight yours looks a lot like Blogger's Dynamic Views [http://googleblog.blogspot.com.es/2011/09/dynamic-views- seve...](http://googleblog.blogspot.com.es/2011/09/dynamic-views-seven-new- ways-to-share.html)

</comment><comment><USER42> The biggest issue I have with THN is the title. "The Hacker News." Sounds all sorts of derivative.

</comment><comment><USER43> Does Hacker Monthly obtain the rights to republish all the articles in their magazine? They probably do not need permission from Y-combinator, but they certainly need permission from the original article authors/owners. If they are not getting permission, it seems that they are stealing too.

<comment><USER6> We do. Every single one of them.

<comment><USER44> Every single one? Including the author of the css for your website?

Edit: Yes, as per your reply below, this comment stemmed from an eruption of confusion on my part. It (the confusion) is now contained and slumbering happily in the depths of my brain. I extend my sincere apologies.

<comment><USER6> Wait, there must be some confusion. I am the author of the css of my website.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I think the biggest problem is not the stole per si. But the biggest problem is that a company trying to make a similar service ripped the competition design.

It's so sad that someone inside the hacker culture has to go through things like these. Why stole a code?

</comment><comment><USER46> I sort of understand how this happens in industries that have few IT or media skills, but to be that stupid when running a hacker magazine site is far beyond simple lazyness or plagiarism and is striding boldly into the boggy marshland territories of true incompetence while wearing nothing but lead stilettos and a hat saying 'Bite Me' and sporting a cologne made of alligator pheromones.

<comment><USER47> "striding boldly into the boggy marshland territories of true incompetence" is now my favourite expression.

Thanks for that.

<comment><USER46> You are welcome. You can have it if you like. I found it in a dank crevice next to a bewildered field-mouse, whilst searching forlornly for my missing marbles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Sites look similar, but how different is this from using the same Hacker News orange colour scheme and aggregating stories directly from Hacker News?

 _"Hacker Monthly is a print magazine version of Hacker News — a social news website wildly popular among programmers and startup founders. The submission guidelines state that content can be "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." Every month, we select from the top voted articles on Hacker News and print them in magazine format._ "

</comment><comment><USER49> Why not opensource your code? Less drama, more profit for the community.

</comment><comment><USER50> "The owner wanted the student to pay for the smells he was enjoying. The student was stealing his smells!" - <USER2>

</comment><comment><USER51> Doesn't really describe "how" it happened.

<comment><USER52> That's your only reaction?

<comment><USER53> I'm actually a bit surprised by the reactions here. Since when is css copyrighted? Where are the numerous lawsuits against Pinterest "clones" for having a grid layout etc.?

Sure, it's a shame, but css, like html and javascript, is not a protected source. It's run client-side. Would you rather just receive a image/png from websites?

EDIT: I know someone who've experienced something very similar (with css prefixes obviously referring to his site rather than the microsoft.cn clone).

<comment><USER54> Just because you can read the source doesn't mean it isn't copyrighted.

<comment><USER53> Right, but it doesn't mean it's copyrighted either.

<comment><USER55> Yes, it does. In the US, all copyrightable creative works (which includes CSS files) are copyrighted by default as soon as they are created. The system is opt-out, not opt-in.

<comment><USER53> Exactly. In the US.

<comment><USER55> Hmm, you do have a point. It seems that Malaysian and Indian law are what we need to know here, since that's where the two parties are based.

<comment><USER56> Indian copyright law is the same. Copyrightable works are copyrighted by default.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Uh, so what? It's an incredibly basic design. It's not as if it's some blatant ripoff of an extravagantly designed theme.

They changed the logos and such (so it's not as if they are pretending to BE you), and made the colours their own. I'm not quite sure what you're mad about?

I would disagree with the concept of ownership of any kind of design work. Especially in the case of code considering how one-dimensional CSS is, there's really only one or two ways to build a site like this anyway.

<comment><USER58> There are lots of free and premium themes to build a "basic site" like this, and anyone can get a license to use the design legally. Why steal from someone who isn't willing to license?

CSS is open source by default, but this doesn't mean there's no copyright.

<comment><USER59> CSS is not open source by default. The default is that copyright exists on any creative work from its moment of creation.

<comment><USER60> There's open source and there's Open Source. It's always been a fuzzy term, hence the move towards Free Software.

In the strictest, most literal sense, yes, the source is publicly available and readable by default.

<comment><USER61> No, it is not a fuzzy term.

Open source means it is licensed under an open source license. Even Microsoft is not trying to steal the term, opting for 'shared source' instead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Get over it. This happens everyday a thousand times over. Provide a better service that keeps users from going elsewhere. Keep innovating to keep the competition one step behind.

Heard of Pinspire? The Samwer brothers have used the copy game over and over again to get mad rich.

It's not worth your time getting upset. Look at it as a form of flattery and move on. Your time is better spent on making your site better than bitching and/or attempting to get them to stop.

<comment><USER63> A case of "some guy stole my mySpace color scheme!" it's worthy of a 'get over it', not this. You're copying ideas and possibly code from a working business to use in your own business and gaining from it without acknowledgement or permission (this last part is key). Public shame IS a proper deterrent, posts like this is the way to go.

<comment><USER49> > copying ideas

oh no! call the thought police!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Why are you on here complaining about it? Do something. Hire a lawyer and get it fixed. If you think it's as clear-cut as you make it sound, skip the lawyer and take direct action.

Moaning to a bunch of grumpy programmers is only going to get you advice like that.

<comment><USER64> Public shaming, especially among the community involved, is often quite effective.

<comment><USER26> More effective than spending 30 minutes to take the site down with a DMCA? This is exactly what they're supposed to be used for.

I don't see how giving them a whole load of PR, links and stern looks is going to fix anything given that they're unscrupulous enough to copy swathes of design and code.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> So what?? I don't care!! both of you bringing value that I like. So I don't care how your sites been designed, and sure you have being taking/stealing/inspiring from others, so its not like you are innocent, as none of us is.

So they went a short way and copied (not stole [1]) your code. So what? Please, steal from me! If you can take my ideas and make them better, I still can go back and see what I haven't seen before and learn from you, execute better next time. World is not a sum zero game where all ideas has been done and we just wait to die. We constantly progress! There will be new ideas to pursue.

And besides, what you gonna do now? You already cried and waste people's time on reading and commenting on it. Are you gonna sue them? Take a legal action? Burn your or your investors' money? What do you expect in return? Apology?? If there were go one step further and use search and replace on html and css and replace variable's names and classes, etc, would that satisfy you??

[1] arguably, nothing has been stolen from you, as of this moment, visiting hackermonthly.com I still can see the code and design being healthy and all OK.</comment>


Rubyonrails.org taken over by domain squatter - <AUTHOR> http://rubyonrails.org/

<comment><USER2> Will they be able to get it back?</comment>


Django development and debugging - <AUTHOR> Hi Everyone, I'm the author of a Python plugin for the VS Code editor (https://github.com/DonJayamanne/pythonVSCode). Basically it provides intellisense, code navigation, debugging (django, multi threads, etc), data science and the like.
When it comes to debugging django applications, today the extension disables (doesn't support) live reloading of django applications.
I'm thinking of having a look at this particular area. Before I do so, I'd like to get an idea of how developers actually develop and debug django applications.
Most of the people i've spoken to say they develop as follows: - Fire up the django application with live reload
- Start codeing - Test in the browser - Very rarely would they debug an application - i.e. majority of the time they don't launch the application in debug mode
How do you work on django applications? <comment><USER2> Roughly as you described it. For debugging I am using pudb though, beats any IDE for me. Template debugging is a useful feature though (Pycharm can do this).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback. The Python extension for VS Code (editor) supports template debugging and all forms of debugging (comparable to PyCharm) as well. It isn't meant to be a competitor to PyCharm, but a lightweight editor (i.e. a very lightweight and portable alternative). [https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=donjayam...](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=donjayamanne.python)</comment></comment>


OpenZFS patch for removing references to slavery - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/pull/10435 <comment><USER2> I have always thought that (primary, secondary) was much better and more extensible terminology.

<comment><AUTHOR> There's an on-going debate on the correct terminology to use, see - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)#Term...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_\(technology\)#Terminology_concerns)</comment></comment>


Google Reader starts (yet another) conversation - <AUTHOR> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/google-reader-starts-conversation.html Great, now I get to split up discussion about things I find interesting to facebook, friendfeed, news.yc, and Google reader... <comment><USER2> My first thought was that the original location of the blog post would be the best place to have that conversation, rather than split it up among however many social circles.

My second thought was that it might make sense if the source blog tends to get hundreds of comments.

How many people read other people's shared Google Reader items?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Great, now I get to split up discussion about things I find interesting to facebook, friendfeed, news.yc, and Google reader...</comment>


Aaron Swartz: A Lesson - <AUTHOR> http://harry-lewis.blogspot.com/2013/01/aaron-swartz-lesson.html

<comment><USER2> Yeah I was kind of wondering... What would RTM think? (Considering he's rarely if ever wrong. :) ) Anyway, I liked this article a lot too (one of the few to make the connection to him)...</comment>


Germany unveils zero-emissions train that only emits steam (2016) - <AUTHOR> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-unveils-zero-emissions-train-only-emits-steam-lower-saxony-hydrogen-powered-a7391581.html <comment><USER2> Article is dated 2016

<comment><USER3> Thanks!</comment></comment>


I'm 15 and dropped out of school, here's why - <AUTHOR> https://joshternyak.com/is-highschool-worth-it/index.html <comment><USER2> Tried this, went back to school. Not recommended. Like me, you may be making this decisions based on arrogance of our own abilities or inflated ego.

Learning is much more difficult without experts. It's rare for someone to get a job in a skilled trade without proof of formal education. There are more than book smarts to be learned in shared education settings.

Also building websites and apps is not high paying for much longer. You will need skills which increasingly require more education.

Suck it up and stick out highschool, and then take some time off before college to work. Then after learning more about things go back and get college educated.

Are you even allowed to drop out before 16 years of age?

</comment><comment><USER3> I watched my brother try this disaster himself. It is in many cases not what you learnt at school that matters, but the diploma that proves you can learn from instruction.

If you can not learn the basics at school, then how is an employer going to be sure that you can learn when he hires you. Without a diploma all my brother could get was low paying jobs.

There are successful people who start young and work themselves up in business, but they are VERY self-motivating. It takes a lot of effort and work to advance on yourself and most people do not have the drive to do it by themselves.

Be very careful about this decision before you commit to it.

</comment><comment><USER4> Drop 100% gaming, social media and pot activity this summer and see how that business goes.

There is a big difference in the outcomes between the truly self-motivated dropouts I know (who have a PhD or C-level title now) and those who weren't 100% ambitious and self-motivated. For every success, there's a dozen or more flipping hamburgers, tending bar or working warehouses.

I'd argue anyone facing another year of Covid should just home school/GED, do a gap year to travel alone or volunteer for Americorps. You can always sell out to McDonalds or Google later.</comment>


Ask HN: Advice needed for spare time project - <AUTHOR>

Hi all,
What do we do?
My girlfriend loves music and I love coding so we joined forces a couple of years ago and produced LiveUnsigned.com - an international listings site and blog for unsigned and micro-label artists.
We've always gone for the slow burn, building up visitors using the blog and the long tail. Whilst we never saw it as a huge money maker we did see it as eventually paying its way.
We've built it up over evenings and weekend (and the occasional ODesk hire) to where it is today:

   - average 400 unique visitors a day
   - average 30,000 page views per month
   - split roughly 50-50 between blog and listings
   - over 2000 twitter followers
   - over 8500 artist profiles
   - over 3000 venues in 42 countries
   - 1200 upcoming shows
 We have a couple of great writers for the blog and reviews who are both immersed into the world of DIY music, and whom we pay a nominal amount to per month.
The issue here is that we have an increasingly limited amount of spare time. We've just had a baby girl (8 months old) so both time and money is a lot tighter than it was. And we're getting married later this year, which is also putting a further burden on time and money.
We have tried a number of things to bring cash in, adwords only bought in about £5 in the two months we tried it. We offered a "feature show" where you can pay £2 to promote your show, even a donate button. Nothing has really worked.
So what do we do?  We have a site that we both love and we feel has great potential, but is taking up both our increasingly sparse time and money with no obvious gain.
We both feel like we need honest advice from someone completely detached. Whether the advice is to try doing X, Y or Z, or to scrap the listings and focus on the blog, or even just to stop completely.
What started out as a fun thing to do together is increasingly becoming a source of headache and tension.
Any advice much appreciated.
(note: I'll try and stay up and respond to any questions if they come along, but it's getting late and my daughter wakes up early!)
Edit: spelling <comment><USER3> General musing out loud:

How about making a "premium" membership for venues? Venues pay a monthly fee ($37/month, whatever) and gain some special advantages. Perhaps they show higher in listings, or get bolded. Or maybe a weekly email of bands which are going to be in the area, as well as any statistics you have about them.

Alternatively, segment out the venues which are updating on a regular basis. Take a portion of that segment and start charging them in some capacity - <USER2> flat fee each time they update shows, etc Or make them purchase "credits" in bulk which are then spent on each update.

I think the monthly model is better, since people naturally like the "unlimited updates" that come with a monthly membership, whereas "credits" tend to promote hoarding and may reduce updates.

Another option is customized newsletters via email. I'm thinking a personalized email which shows upcoming live shows in my area. If one of those landed in my inbox weekly I'd probably read it and check out the bands. Once you build a steady open-rate you could start selling that resource to venues (either through advertising or statistics).

</comment><comment><USER4> You don't say how much it costs you; my impression is that the time is more than the cash amount. Have you tried asking your users what they want, or telling your users what you want? I'm thinking of '8500 artists. 1200 upcoming shows. Could someone please buy us a drink?' A subscription model would be ideal but I'm not sure how you do that - although i do think that charging two quid for promotion sends the message that your service lacks value, and that you would have got many more signups if you had demanded twenty. If you can't see a subscription model, cost out an upgrade and some merch and then do a kickstarter to raise the funds.

What sort of values could you ad if you had money to burn? How about a full page ad in NME or Q every month promoting 3 new bands? Or a hookup with a radio station? Have you tried getting sponsorship from music instrument manufacturers/dealers? Musicians are always craving new gear, it's an addiction in the same way that music fans are always craving new tunes.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your reply.

It costs us roughly £400 per month, including blog posts, server costs and we have an odesk hire who does about 10-15 hours per week researching and entering in shows.

I see what you mean about the £2 as lacking in value, it's all about perception.

Sadly outside the US so I don't think we can do kickstarter (don't know if there are any EU equivalents).

If we had money to burn we'd most likely revamp the site, focusing on mobile (more and more people are accessing us with Android/iPhone ad we both feel this is the way to go). We'd also like to do events for unsigned bands.

If money was truly no object, then yes, full page ads would be pretty cool, but I have no idea how we'd get roi on this.

One thing we've thought about (in conjunction with the localisation of a mobile site) would be very localised targeted advertising. But we're not marketing/ad people and have no idea even where to begin with this.

Is it even possible to get a sales person for commission only to do something like this?

<comment><USER4> I hesitate to give specific advice from so far away, but my experience of music promoters is that they are some of the most entrepreneurial people out there (to the point that they will exploit you if allowed, of course). Offhand, I would look for ways to get income from the venues, whose economics are simple: book bands with fans, sell booze to fans, profit. They're much more likely to spend, and to understand their own economics than bands themselves. Start your research by calling around local and regional papers as if you had a pub or something and wanted to take out your own advertising - get the rate card of old-media publications and try to guess how much it costs a venue owner to bring the public inside the door and spending money. Or again, simply ask them.

The more I think about it, the more I think venues are your revenue stream. Bands come and go, whereas stages tend to stay in one place :-)

<comment><AUTHOR> This is great, and probably the way to go. We do have a number of venues who update their listings on a weekly basis, so we must be doing something right by them.

So it's sort of a three link chain:

1\. help the fans to find bands they like (and help the band to promote themselves to a wider audience) 2\. help venues find bands with the most fans 3\. connect these bands with the venues so the bands play in front of large audience and the venue sells more beer.

Point 3 is where we get the revenue stream.

This is good stuff, and helping me see things a bit differently. Thanks

<comment><USER4> Don't forget to close the circle - make sure the (local) fans know what's on at the venues, even if it's unfamiliar to them. Remember being young and single, and going out for the sake of going out. The exploratory and habitual aspects of cultural behavior are at least as important as the directed ones - but I'll stop here lest I start to sound like a marketing course :-)

Lots of luck, and congratulations on the baby!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great site by the way. It seems like you have a lot of data already up there. Is there a way you can leverage it to make it more valuable? Your target audience is really 2 bases: fans and bands. For the fans: maybe track which band or what venue gets the most clicks? For the bands: maybe provide a resource on how to tour for bands... like a google maps plot of previous tours of other bands... which venues treat bands the best (sort of like yelp)?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the compliments.

Along with @anigbrowl in the comment above there are really three main types of audience: bands, fans and venues/promoters.

One of the possibilities is to charge for stats, how many visits, where are they coming from etc. But I think this is only possible with a larger visitor base (i.e. more unique visitors/hits).

I really like your idea for resources for touring, this could be a good thing to go for, especially as it is all about helping the artists (which is primarily what the blog focuses on). The yelp idea is great as well, and fits in nicely.

But again it's how to make a return on these resource, is advertising the only way?

Edit: after going through anigbrowl's comment above and thinking some more, these resources will be a great way to help promote a band and build up a fan base. Then hopefully we have some value here to the venues by helping them find bands that will bring in the public. This is good stuff. Thanks</comment></comment>


A universal web tag, or universal web tagging standard? - <AUTHOR> https://jshub.org/blog/2009/10/17/universal_tag_or_universal_data/

<comment><USER2> This is also an issue of vendor lock-in. If a web site wants to move from one web analytics company to another, it has to redo the tags on every page. I can't comment on jshub's offering, but the general idea is a good one.</comment>