Ask YC: 6-Month road trip down the west coast...much advice needed - <AUTHOR>

Hi. Twitter version: Bored in SC, apartment lease up, want to see western US.
Wordpress version: I'm a 26 year-old single freelance web dev working fulltime from home in South Carolina. Lived in the southeast my whole life; now is as good a time as any to see something else. My very tentative plan is take my trusty F-150 ($4 gas = ouch) across the country and stay in one place for a month or two, then keep moving. If I love it somewhere, hell, I'll stay. Itinerary: SC -> Vancouver? -> Seattle -> Portland -> Sacramento -> SF/SJ -> San Diego -> Vegas? -> SLC -> Denver. Or something.
My plan is to look for furnished apartments with month-to-month leases or find extended-stay hotels. To be open about my budget, I work 40hrs/week @$40/hour (all remotely) and I plan on keeping 30 hrs+/week throughout my travels. (Haven't talked to my client about it yet but they're very cool.) That should cover my cost of living. I know downtown metros are expensive but 15 miles away I should be able to find some housing. (Right?) Say, $1,200/month avg? (SF notwithstanding)
My current lease here is up July 31st. If I could scrape 1% of the YC'ers collective knowledge about the west coast and extended road trips, it would be a humongous help. So that you can refer to them by number, here are my questions:
1.) Is that itinerary FUBAR? Any other city suggestions? I was trying to migrate south as it got colder this fall, then maybe to Denver to ski :)
2.) Is there even such a thing as month-to-month furnished apartments? Google's not a lot of help. Is $1,200/mo. for temp housing a good guess?
3.) Work: I will need wireless internet service; I'm looking at Alltel EVDO @ $60/month. Verizon & Sprint EVDO's cap at 5GB/mo. Unacceptable. Any  other options / experiences? I will be working from desktop + 2 LCD's when I can, HP laptop when I can't.
4.) Need to buy: Garmin nuvi 350 GPS, digital camera, external USB hard drive for backup/photos...any other nontrivial essentials?
5.) People in the cities I mentioned - what do I simply have to experience in my time there?
6.) Catch-all advice on the western US
7.) Catch-all advice on extended road trips
And, last but definitely not least, does anybody on that route want to meet up? I follow HN daily, had 3 sites I've built on TechCrunch, had YC in-person interview last spring (stayed in SF & really liked it), and just love to talk ideas and execution. Supper and some beers with a few of you would be a welcome respite from my solo saga.
THANKS!!!
BlogSpot version: Buy VI@GRA!
Sam
samstrip at gmail (Damn, that's supposed to indicate "Sam's Trip", not "Sam, Strip") <comment><USER3> Did that last year, camped on beaches and parks when could.

watch for stacked rocks! They're everywhere (in the remotest parts of nowhere). I dunno who's stacking em, but I ran across about 2 dozen.

Lots of altitude, climate/temp changes very fast - light layers needed. get superlight rain jacket (stretchy kind, use as light jacket) waterproof hiking shoes/boots in seattle, pick up down vest at "feathered friends"

(glacier national park, yellowstone might be on your way. There is a national park pass for like 20bucks good everywhere. (got snowed on this time of year at yellowstone)

seattle: gum wall (by pike's market), troll under the bridge, waiting for the interurban (sculpture the locals "grafiti" for holidays, protests, whatever). First starbucks. Also, Seattle underground tour (town used to be one story lower), lots of history, deadly toilets and such. The namesake of Skid Road is downtown, where they used to slide all the timber down (poor people lived there)

Cross puget sound and go north around to the pacific - fantastic country down to OR. Watch beaches change from Olympic WA (western most point has a RV park by the indian res that will let you camp on the beach), to Imperial Beach in San Diego.

Hoh rainforest, the only rainforest in US over there.

Be sure to eat as much fresh fish/crab as possible, till you get LA and lower, switch to mexican...... mmm... fish tacos Lots of hole-in-the wall fish places to get smoked salmon instead of a candybar for a snack.

Oregon did beaches mostly, cool dunes portland has the worlds smallest park:"Over the years, items have been added like a tiny swimming pool and diving board for butterflies, a miniature Ferris wheel and more."

at the very SW corner (near cave junction), there is an "ewok village", a bunch of treehouses you can rent. multi-story, 40ft up, rope bridges, bonfire.. awesome. They have a zipline course you can take in the morning.

N Cali Jededia Smith Redwoods state park was coolest park - think land of the lost. Avenue of the giants is another, i think they have a tree you can drive through (there's a few).

Bohemian grove is up there (secret society retreat)

Nappa and Sonoma wine country is truly beautiful. (tell them you're buying a bottle - they'll let you taste for free)

San Fran: i dunno, tons. I want another crab eggs bennedict at the cliff house personally.

LA. Start of real mexican food. mmm...

Gamble on some horses in Delmar and hit the fun little ocean towns on the way down to san diego. Dont take the 5!! take the pacific coast highway. Sure it takes forever, but you've got time!

San Diego: Glider port (Torrey Pines?, north of LaJolla) big cliff hangliders/parasailers like to jump off. Bring bonoculars, its above Black's beach (nude). Famous modern architecture building. LaJolla has "munchkind land" (most is gated now, but you can get there if your sneaky). There's the beach full of seals (and seal's poop), but there's also a hidden on used to go to all the time, tourmaline or something. From there you can walk around beneath lajolla cliffs and its just you and the ocean. Pacific beach probably has the most "baywatch" style beach.

Downtown there's a parking ramp that's built too high. Sit on top and watch the airplanes come in and read the writing on the landing gear tires. Its a thrill.

I think you can tour some of the military ships, I got on an aircraft carrier while they were in port. Amazing.

there's the cross (good view) point loma has 360 panarama lookout.

Nearby on rosecrans, they'res Albertos Mexican food (California burrito has french fries) God love em. Rubios - famous for fish tacos

Ocean Beach is over there, fun throw-back to the 60's kinda vibe.

Then it gets crappy down imperial beach to the border and TJ.

Vegas: yeah baby. I'd give you some spots, but its all bit hazy.

Utah: Zion is a short hop from vegas. A must see. I missed it, but heard bryce is good too.

Arizona: Another short hop gets you to the north rim of the grand caynon. Its more rugged than the south, less toursty.

The drive down to Flagstaff thru reservation is remote and majestic, like you're driving through a picture.

I had to get back so I bypassed em, but there's a petrified forest, rosewell, sedona (psychic vortex or some crap - hippieville), labrea tar pits and roswell.

The joy is in the places between places. Seriously, No fast food! It'll force you into all the diners, road side shacks.

I'm really not kidding about the rock stacks.

Have fun!!!

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome post dude, thanks for all the details. That's exactly what I'm looking for. No McDonald's for me, I want to see what's out there...

<comment><USER3> It wasn't the time of my life or anything, but I was in between tech gigs and thought I'd just drive and see what happened. It was expensive (gas), but I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I get a chance. (and accidentally drummed up more work than I could handle in the process - its amazing how much you can address when you've got all the time in the world) There was a book I took with me was called "eccentric america" that had all the wacky non-mainstream places. (like the fake history museum in L.A... wild. All the seriousness of a real museum, but completely fiction.) My email's firstname.lastname@example.com if I can help. Get a moleskin and a good (portable so you'll always carry it) camera - I'm really, really not a diary dude, but reading over the entries... brings me back to my "tech guy freed from tech world" musings about the world. Its priceless to me.

Enjoy the trip.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think some background is in order so you know my perspective.

I spent 3 summer months traveling to the western continental US in 2000. I've been to every state west of the Mississippi. Since 2000, I've lived in Arizona and traveled extensively in Arizona, New Mexico and California. I enjoy hiking, skiing, mountain biking and visiting big cities and national parks.

I'd recommend staying in extended stay hotels and getting as much travel in as possible over picking up apartments.

Let's assume you find your way to Jackson WY. A cool small town in NW Wyoming. I'd visit Grand Teton and Yellowstone NP then head through Missoula, Montana to Coeur D'Alene / Spokane. Then head toward Seattle (or possibly the Columbia River valley to Portland). This is probably a week or two if you are working on and off.

I'd recommend Vancouver and Seattle as a base for the next week or two. I'd goto Victoria from Vancouver. I'd head to Olympic NP and Mt Rainier from Seattle. Mixing off days in downtown Seattle and/or Vancouver.

I'd head south to Portland and set up base here for another week or two. I'd hit up Mt Hood for some skiing in late summer (just fun because you can). And I'd cruise the Oregon coast. There are a ton of really cool cities on the coast. Portland has great breweries that should not be missed.

Next I'd head south toward San Francisco. Consider visiting Redwood NP. It's quite an excursion. If you do you'll probably want to take the 101 south. Even though this is a scenic drive it can be a bit crazy after six or eight hours of driving crazy coastal roads. If you are into easy going hippy / wine culture then this is a must. Since you'll pass through Eureka, Sonoma, Santa Rosa, Napa, etc.

I've only visited San Fransisco and San Jose a few times. This is a good place to set up a base. I'm assuming there will already be plenty of advice on visiting this area. There are definitely plenty of tourist areas that can be taken in depending on your interests. Yosemite NP and Lake Tahoe and Napa are a must if you are in the San Fransisco area.

I've driven from San Fransisco to LA a number of times and prefer the mountain drive. Versus the coast drive. Both are superior to just taking the 5.

The mountains: Yosemite and Kings Canyon and Sequoia NP. Farm land in between mountains. Definitely worth seeing the "rest" of California. Also great if you love the mountains and forest to the coast.

The coast: Monterey, Pebble Beach, San Luis Obispo. Golf courses, wineries and marinas. Definitely good if you have a significant other and a lot of cash. If you can afford it and aren't into mountains and giant trees this is the way to go.

Other than the beach cities I'd skip most of LA. With the exception of specific things you are interested in. Still you'll have to drive EVERYWHERE and it's huge. Maybe hook up with a friend there and get the tour that way.

Set up base in San Diego and Long Beach. The area is really cool. I've only visited as a tourist but it's definitely a lot of fun. You'll get the socal feel without having to spend too much time in LA.

I'm a big rock climber so I'd recommend Joshua Tree NP on the way out of California. But if you insist on some gambling then go through the Mojave / Death Valley to Las Vegas. I'd spend less time in LV and hit up a nicer hotel while there. That is just me personally. If you are in LV in the middle of the summer you should shop for deals beforehand because you'll be able to get some insane room rates. I've stayed in a huge 1200 sq ft suite for 150 a night in July and August. Always ask when you check in if there are any available upgrades.

Then I'd head to Zion NP, Bryce NP and end in the Grand Canyon NP. You could loop as far out as Moab and back to the Grand Canyon. I don't know how best to visit this area with a single base. This is all time dependent. I would recommend doing the south west late because Monsoons will have arrived. It will be somewhere between insanely hot and pleasant. But in May-July you'll just end up with the insanely hot bit. Seeing the monsoons tear across the SW is really awesome too. So with some lucky you'll catch some impressive storms.

If you have time and are down with the desert I would hit Tucson. Saguaros can not be found anywhere else in the world (just southern AZ and nothern MX). It's a laid back and cool town and where I currently live. It's one of those "big" small towns.

From there head to Santa Fe and on to Denver. If you are a bit insane and have the time I'd head through Durango and take the 550 up and around through the Rockies. If you are in a rush take 25 all the way through. The Great Sand Dunes NP is bizarre and just off of 25. It's a good place to stop if you have time and weather dependent. I personally prefer the ski areas on the western side of the Rockies. The cities and ski areas have a lot more character.

Have a great trip!

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome man, thanks for the long post. I really appreciate any info I can get from someone who's been-there-done-that. This really helped me out because I am definitely interested in exploring some of nature's great exhibits that abound in this area.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Sounds like you've gotten some good advice so far. Here's what I'd add:

Camping in the lake Tahoe area is great, particularly one campground on "Emerald Bay". If you're there in winter, do try snowboarding/skiing.

In the SF area I recommend checking out Pacifica and Santa Cruz, and making a quick stop through Carmel. Each is a different flavor of northern CA beach town.

Also, north of SF Mendocino is awesome and the surrounding area is quite unfettered compared with a lot of areas that attract tourists.

In SF, you can find a monthly room in someone's apartment/house for $400 to $600 on Craigslist.

Also, check out the wine country (tourist attraction but there are some nice restaurants, and everything is posh and manicured, yet not in a stodgy way), and definitely check out the redwoods (Muir woods is easy to get to but there are others) for some hiking. You don't see trees like that every day. The smell of the redwoods and the eucalyptus will be memorable for a long time... it's wonderful.

In SF proper, check out the mission district, and yes, Yelp is a great resource. Also, there are a bunch of cool technology oriented meetups in the bay area, so spend at least a few days (at the beginning of a month) around here so that you can check some of them out (js, mysql, ruby, startups, etc.).

You can't miss L.A. either. I highly recommend going to this place called Skybar which is in the Mondrian hotel. Book an (expensive) room for one night at the hotel (preferably Thurs, Fri, or Sat) and go to Skybar that night and mingle with the local L.A. scenesters. I have done this a few times and it's quite an experience. Also, the Mondrian looks out over the bluffs and you have a great view of the HOLLYWOOD sign. Hey, you're visiting the west coast so just bite the bullet and be a cultural anthropologist for a night... :)

If you go south of L.A., check out the fish taco scene. The NY Times ran an article last year about a west coast taco "exploration" that a writer wrote up on a similar trip.

For the driving, I recommend that you stay on the 1 when possible, as the view of the ocean is worth quite a bit. The 5 is full of trucks and it's very hot and unpleasant.

In general, I recommend trying to conserve money by doing things like camping, couch crashing at people's houses, etc., and then splurging a bit on some good food now and then.

Restaurants I recommend: Cafe Gratitude (creative vegan fare that will knock your socks off, particularly the coconut pie), Pane e Vino (in SF, try the pizza with arugula), Mustard's (in Yountville, decent prices and a sample of the great food of the wine country).

Also, sprint EVDO doesn't always have a cap. Mine was a bit more expensive and has unlimited bandwidth.

<comment><USER6> much good advice here. i don't know if i'd recommend mondrian/skybar that strongly but it's definitely cool. cuba cuba, the restaurant in the mondrian, is amazing (asian fusion).

for my dollar, the best restaurant in L.A. is A.O.C. on 3rd in WeHo. Chic and very unpretentious, a rare combo in LA.

Also go to Milk at Beverly and Poinsettia for insane milkshakes and homemade ice cream sandwiches, Insane.

There are also many many awesome hikes right in the Hollywood hills, including Runyon Canyon (ZOMG girl watching) and Bronson Canyon.

Finally, arguably the coolest spot in LA is the Edison downtown:

edisondowntown.com

Also the little temple bar (in silver lake) is cool, also 4100 bar.

if you're a coffee junkie, there is a [coveted] intelligentsia coffee house on sunset in silver lake as well

<http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/retail/silverlake>

Get to both of those places before 9:30pm or you'll be standing in line forever.

That's the key to going out in LA; go early (or pay $600 for bottle/table service)

Just email me when you're working your way down here, ref YC in all caps in the subject line so I get it ;-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Cue Mastercard commercial...

Getting out of South Carolina: priceless. (I was born in SC, and grew up in Greenville. I can say stuff like that.)

1\. Itinerary should be whatever you want to see. You'll never have a better time for traveling than now...young, single, plenty of cash. Just take your time, and travel _light_. The increased stress of moving and keeping up with lots of stuff isn't worth the benefits you get from having the lots of stuff. If after a few days you really wish you'd brought X, you can probably buy X for less than the hassle of having X, Y, and Z "just in case" is worth.

2\. $1200 is low for anywhere in the bay area, not just SF. Otherwise, I guess it's probably right (though I haven't shopped for housing anywhere outside of the bay area). Though I have seen a few good short-term deals on Craigslist. You might try lining something up a week or two in advance of your trip to any of the high demand areas, since finding something on short notice may be hard.

4\. Safety net:

\- Health insurance (from a national provider, preferably)

\- $200-$300 cash tucked someplace safe - if your wallet is lost, you still want to be able to get a hotel room or something for a night or two, and eating is not optional

\- Bank account that has ATMs and branches across the range of where you're traveling (BoA, WaMu, Wells Fargo, I guess?)

\- Good credit card for car rentals and airline tickets (because of the extra "travel protection" services they provide...it's trivial, but probably worth getting anyway, as even a small reduction of stress when traveling has a very high value)

\- Emergency contact names and numbers on a card in visible location in your wallet

I agree with Einar. Trade in the pickup for a small hatchback (though, for reliability, I'd recommend a good Japanese car over a VW, even thought my girlfriend has an 07 Rabbit that's tolerable). It'll give you more freedom of movement when weather is bad, more security for your stuff, and it'll offer a moderately nicer place to sleep than the pickup if you get stuck somewhere overnight. It'll also get significantly higher mileage per gallon. The tradeoff is that it won't hold quite as much, but if it won't fit in a hatchback, you're probably taking too much stuff.

I suspect you won't have a hard time getting some HN folks together in the Bay Area. Nerds and entrepreneurs love to talk. Drop me a line when you get here.

</comment><comment><USER6> Sam, are you seriously going to go to Sacramento BUT NOT LOS ANGELES???

LA is an incredible place with loads of amazing places to stay for week or month-long intervals (lots of "creatives" running around subletting their apartment)

i can probably set you up somewhere if you want to drop a line.

i recommend venice as a beach area (also marina del rey, which is cheaper)...silver lake for an inland area that's really cool and beautiful...can't go wrong with west hollywood or the hollywood hills for sheer, um, hollyweirdness.

there's also pasadena and hoity toity areas like pacific palisades or topanga that would be fun.

keep in mind that LA is freaking HUGE (roughly 30miles by 30 miles).

and also that it's optimal to be here october-april (although the beach areas are temperate year round...it can get hot once you're >10 miles inland in the summer).

The people in Orange County are basically how they are portrayed on MTV, but Laguna Beach is really beautiful and has great beaches. You could probably find a spot there in the off-season that you'd love.

I found this service to be pretty useful for finding apartments in specific areas:

kexter.com

holler if you'd like some help!

ethanbauley // gmail

(Virginia transplant)

(PS you really need to post up in Big Sur or somewhere similar on the north side of SF. Sonoma/Napa is incredible, too).

Just saw your budget, you will be set up with INCREDIBLE studio/1 bedroom places in LA w/ that budget. You could do it for less.

I might think about losing the pickup truck for this trip...but I'd have to crunch the numbers ;-)

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, thanks for your excitement! I actually have friends in LA but maybe I've been corrupted by the TV portrayal...I kinda saw it as traffic-mired and vacuous and not really worth navigating. You may have changed my mind my friend.

<comment><USER6> Ya, I thought that too until I visited and then moved here for grad school. There's plenty of vacuous stuff going on, but it's only part of the overall scene. LA is incredibly diverse.

There's a reason millions of people live here and the real estate is retardedly expensive. It's effing awesome.

(Especially for someone who's clearly as open to new experiences as you are; I think you'll love it if you find the right scene)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Wow, such an awesome question!

* The road in Iowa that hugs the Mississippi is quite a nice relaxing drive relative to the Interstates. A good break.

* In the SD/WY area I90 is a much nicer road than I80.

* The camping/hiking in the Black Hills of SD is awesome. Be sure to drive Needles highway. Be aware of the timing of the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally if you head toward the Black Hills.

* I recommend camping at Devil's Tower in Wyoming. There is something special about that place.

* Stop in Red Lodge Montana and then cross the continental divide on Beartooth Highway-- amazing drive and it will take you into Yellowstone.

* There is lift accessible skiing year-round (minus two weeks of maintenance time) at Mt. Hood in Oregon.

* There is some awesome camping at Pt. Reyes in Marin county north of SF. You'll need backcountry camping gear though as the sites are a mile or two away from the parking.

* Eat at Chez Panisse in Berkeley. This is where Alice Waters originated California Cuisine. It is special and delicious.

* Santa Cruz, Monterrey and Big Sur are all worth your time. I'd say much more deserving of your time than Sacramento is. Eat at Nepenthe in Big Sur.

* If you are out by Yosemite/Mammoth research hot springs in which you can soak.

* Despite the anti-Boulder sentiment I sometimes perceive here I think it's a great town and worth spending some time.

* If you take I80 and pass by Laramie let me know I can tell you a lot of cool things about Laramie and the surrounding countryside.

Good luck and have fun!

</comment><comment><USER9> I did a 6 week summer road trip a couple years ago - from Ventura up to Tahoe, then Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Banff, Glacier Natl Park, Montana, Idaho, Salt Lake City, then finishing up in Vegas.

If you have a truck then maybe a camper shell will come in handy. In a pinch you can always sleep at a truck stop or walmart parking lots.

Geographically, the coast of Oregon is amazing - recommend some beach camping. Olympic National Forest is interesting - the only rainforest north of the equator. The Montana / Idaho area is nice but only if you are into the outdoors / nuclear powered aircraft ([http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/ID/Airfields_ID_...](http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/ID/Airfields_ID_N.htm)). Salt Lake City is great for skiing and mormon watching (I found it interesting). And everyone knows what Vegas is about.

Denver is probably too far out of your way to be worth it - plenty of good skiing all over CA and Utah.

</comment><comment><USER10> Sounds like a lot of fun, Sam. Good for you.

Here's my thoughts:

Keep the truck, but get a Truck Camper: <http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/> Hell, if you can afford it, get a miniRV. It know it's kind of old school. But there's a lot of people on the West Coast that have them. And the RV parks should be fairly good pickings after the summer's over. They aren't really sexy, but you should be able to stay in very nice RV parks that have wifi, hookups, pools, grills, etc... for about 800-900 a month. And, you don't have to worry about finding a month to month lease. There are even a couple of RV parks outside of LA, but there's a 8-9 month waiting list to get in. If you go this route, you'll have to have another form of transportation for runs to the grocery store, etc... for that, get a vespa or a bike.

As for supplies: Skip the desktop and 2 LCD's. If you need the extra screen real estate, use your laptop and plug in an extra LCD monitor, keyboard and mouse. After 3 months, hauling a big case around gets really old.

++ for Utah's/Arizona's national parks like Grand Canyon, Bryce, Zion, Arches, Monument Valley.

Skip Tahoe. Do stop by Shasta and spend some time along the coast in Northern Cal. If you do the Eastern slope of the Sierra's at all, stop by the Bodie ghost town. It's awesome: <http://www.bodie.com/> Spend some time in Big Sur.

My favorite part of California is the Central Coast between Big Sur and Santa Barbara. There's a small college town called San Luis Obispo that has a good engineering school (i.e. nerds) and a string of quiet little beach towns all around. My wife and I try to get down there every 3-4 months to unwind. It's lovely. Not exactly a big party zone, but nice if you like the beach and peace and quiet.

Buy a wet suit and a surf board and learn how to surf. You can park your camper RV along highway 1 and surf at any number of beaches along the coast.

I really didn't like LA much at all. Lived there for 2 years. Meh. YMMV.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, I have thought about a truck camper (seems like ~$5000) but I've never really been in an RV park so I didn't know what to make of it. (Showers? Toilets?) Big Sur has been mentioned to me a few times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> 1) if you really have the time, if i were you, i'd go across to the grand canyon, north to yellowstone, and up to vancouver for your adventure. sounds like you're going big, and those two places are must-sees if you've not seen them.

2) yeah, you can rent vacation condos on the cheap. i spent two weeks in south beach for less than half the cost of a hotel in a fully furnished large apartment. check out <http://www.vrbo.com/> \-- you can negotiate with the owners on price, especially if you're taking up a huge hole in their calendar.

3) i have no experience for you.

4) sounds like you've got it covered, and you can always buy stuff on the way. car charger for the cell, maybe.

5) i'd worry less about the cities. you can find out the must-see stuff in a city with a quick google search. a substantial amount of the best stuff on your trip will probably be in between bigger cities. especially on the way to the west coast.

6) everything is more expensive. especially compared to clemson.

7) take the time to stretch your legs and experience the stuff in between your destinations if you can spare it.

i'd have some beers before you leave, i'm also in SC :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, I have been to the Grand Canyon, but it's been, oh, 15 years. VRBO.com looks nice but kinda pricey. Where are you in SC?

<comment><USER11> columbia, but i went to clemson.

vbro is a little pricey, but like i said, it will put you in contact directly with the owners of the properties, with whom you can negotiate directly. find one you like and is available and contact the person and ask to see if you can get a discount for occupying for an extended length.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> As others have said, skip Sacramento, stick to the coasts (Hwy. 101). If you ditch the truck, you'll also have a much easier time driving and parking in the cities -- parallel parking in downtown anywhere can require some dexterity. Look for a used Civic hatchback or similar.

While you're in San Diego, you can go a certain distance into Mexico for a day trip occasionally without much commitment -- Ensenada, easy. Hotels are easy enough to come by that you can head further south for a weekend or so, to see more of Baja (maybe San Felipe). You'll notice that the further you get from the border, things get less sketchy and more interesting. I only mention it because you started by mentioning you'd like to see "something else", and you can definitely cover more than the U.S. west coast in 6 months.

Another day trip from Long Beach that probably wouldn't occur to you: Take a boat to Catalina Island with some friends, rent bicycles, get blitzed, eat sushi. It's a resort town done right -- golf carts instead of cars, lots of beach, and easy food, drink and sightseeing. One day is enough.

</comment><comment><USER13> Travel lighter.

In Portland, take a day or two to wander around Powell's and Powell's Technical.

Be prepared to lose stuff.

Don't forget there's more to the west than cities.

Post the URL of your trip blog.

Have Fun.

</comment><comment><USER14> Highly recommend the National Parks in Utah (Bryce, Zion, Capital Reef, etc.) as well as Monument Valley.

<comment><USER15> Also Yosemite in California -- it's just unbelievable. I was there last weekend and I was just amazed.

[http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryangwu82/sets/7215760536136072...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/ryangwu82/sets/72157605361360722/)

<comment><USER6> omg! those pics are amazing!

i wonder where sam could go to a) stay online and b) have access to stuff like that...

<comment><USER16> Italy:-)

[http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=dolomites&um...](http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=dolomites&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)

If you wanted, you could even live in places like that - maybe not _quite_ so spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at, either.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow. Add that to my list of international places to visit. How many people speak at least a little English in the cities over there?

<comment><USER16> You can get by, but you won't enjoy yourself as much as if you spoke the language, same as most places.

Italy is a fantastic place to visit, it has almost as much natural variety as California (mountains, rivers, lakes, estuaries, the arid south), with a quantity of culture, history and man-made things unequaled in the US - <USER2> pretty much anywhere else for that matter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Do Vancouver; nice startup scene (see e.g. <http://www.launchpartyhq.com/>), AMAZING scenery, and either way only 2.5hrs from Seattle.

The downside is that $1200/month here is a little on the low side unless you don't mind living well out of town. I'd say $1500 for a monthly (more if you rent per-week) in downtown. Check out: <http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/sub/> and know that you want the following neighbourhoods: Downtown, Kitsilano (aka Kits), West-End, around West 10th, Commercial Drive (cheaper) or Coal Harbour (with the juppies..)

If you decide to come here, definitely let's hook up for a beer or three: email@example.com. (which goes for anyone else around here too btw)

Finally, I'd swap the pickup for a Golf TDI if you're gonna drive that far... :-)

Cheers,

Einar

<comment><USER18> If your going to use craiglist for appartments, use craiglist appartments on google maps, alot nicer!

<http://www.housingmaps.com/>

<comment><USER17> Hmm.. yeah. Except the site doesn't seem to pick up a lot of postings even though they have addresses. And those it does pickup is quite often outdated. I've also had a problem of Bay Area ads showing up in BC. So sure, but know it's lacking in coverage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> avoid sacramento at all costs. there is nothing to see.

one option, at least in the bay area, would be to use couchsurfing.com.

in the bay area you wont need mobile broadband. there is unprotected wireless everywhere, and every coffee shop will have free wireless.

while in the bay area use yelp from pretty much everything. we use it a lot down here and pretty much every business has a lot of reviews.

also, be sure to check out santa cruz while you're in the bay. a fun little town.

some google fodder: -big sur -big basin -the saturn cafe, santa cruz -gourmet ghetto, berkeley -the berkeley bowl -berkeley in general -california farmer's markets -the red vic -china town, sf -ucsc's campus, very pretty

again, dont go to sacramento.

<comment><USER20> I live near Sacramento, and I'd agree it's not really worth going out of your way to visit. It's not a bad or unpleasant place, and parts of midtown are quite nice, but there's not much point in being here if you could be somewhere else.

If you're heading inland from SF you should (as someone else said) visit Lake Tahoe instead.

I don't agree with what other people are saying about trading in your car on something more economical. You're doing maybe three thousand miles, but it's spread over a six month period, making your total gas costs for the actual road-trip only a hundred odd bucks a month. If the F-150 is reliable and holds all the stuff you want to take, then take it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Over three weeks in the summer of 2006, I took a road trip from Madison, WI through the following places (in order): Mitchell, SD Rapid City, SD Sheridan, WY Yellowstone National Park Missoula, MT Coeur d'Alene ID Spokane, WA Grand Coulee Dam (awesome - tours are free!) Lake Chelan, WA

-> take highway 2 into Everett/Seattle. It's the most beautiful thing you'll see! Seattle, WA (spend more time here - see Pike Place, the public library, which is a beautiful, tall and extremely modern building downtown)

Olympic Peninsula (skip this - stay in Seattle longer)

Portland, OR (Seattle is way better - but if you're in there, go to Saburo's - <http://www.saburos.com/> \- you might have to wait an hour, but the sushi there is incredible.)

Driving down PCH is a great plan. I like the northern better.

I saw a bunch of other stuff, but Oregon's not nearly as impressive as Washington or Northern California (don't miss the Bay Area, of course, but don't bother driving any further south.)

We went from LA to Vegas, and it's skip-able. Utah was OK, and from there we went to Denver and then back home.

The whole trip was over 7,000 miles.

Anyway, focus on the pacific northwest. It's just beautiful. I was just in San Diego for a week last fall, and it's awful. You'll just wish you were in SF, so stay away from San Diego.

And if you're into Canada, try visiting Banff. I'm going there next (on a trip that will take me to Alaska and then to Hawaii by ferry.)

You're probably going to hate your truck. I would get something sleeker.

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, a lot of people have mentioned trying to see the smaller towns. What makes you not like San Diego? I think the weather would be much better than SF.

<comment><USER21> Smaller towns can be great.

But food in San Diego's downtown is incredibly expensive given the (bad) quality. The whole place is a giant tourist trap, but this is especially true for the "gaslamp district". If you go anyway, don't say I didn't warn you!

And I'm really serious about Saburo's - the place is amazing. For $20 you can get more sushi than you can possibly eat in an evening. Every piece of fish they give you is about 4x larger than you'd find anywhere else.

<comment><USER22> Agreed on downtown San Diego. But there are tons of other good areas in San Diego. Old Town has great places to eat like Casa de Pico and La Pinata. Hillcrest has lots of culture and I'd recommend the Park House Eatery. Pacific Beach has some great crusty hang outs and bars. La Jolla is beautiful. And you have to go to the big tourist attractions at least once like the San Diego Zoo and Sea World.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> 2.) There are month-to-month furnished apartment, e.g. Oakwood has furnished apartments in Mountain View:

<http://www.oakwood.com/>

Be careful, because a lot of apartment managers use your security deposit to replace the carpet and repaint the apartment when you leave. Also, most apartment managers wait the full 3 weeks to return your deposit in CA.

3.) You can try this for wireless internet:

<https://www.ipassconnect.com/main>

4.) iphone 2.0 is supposed to come with GPS and sell for $200. Maybe you'll want that instead of Garmin GPS.

7.) Bathroom finder:

[http://www.imodium.com/page.jhtml?id=/imodium/include/3_5.in...](http://www.imodium.com/page.jhtml?id=/imodium/include/3_5.inc)

</comment><comment><USER24> * Bring a bike and a snowboard!

* Go to Tahoe/Reno.

* Do a West coast run up to Portland, Seattle, Vancouver, Whistler. Ski in BC!

* I'd highly recommend spending lots of time in Portland/Vancouver. Both cities have a lively startup scene and the social scene is more friendly than Silicon Valley IMHO.

</comment><comment><USER25> Hey Sam,

Vancouver's pretty pricey too. You may want to check out Vancouver island/Victoria instead. Either way, there's plenty to see & do, and really, they're only an hour apart on a boat (it might save you some money though).

The west coast stays pretty temperate year-round (even up here in Canada), but heading south is never a bad idea. You might want to drop some Mexican destinations in there at the end (beaches never hurt)

Another idea might be to see if you can lease/borrow/buy an RV. Sure, the gas issue sucks, but there's a ton of nice camp grounds up and down the coast, and it will help with your budget.

If you do make it up north, I'm out in the Southern Gulf Islands (Mayne Island, Google Map it). If you're up for a day trip sometime, I'd be happy to show you around.

<comment><AUTHOR> I might do that, thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> In my opinion it would be a mistake to see only the cities.

I traveled on the west coast a few years ago and I was amazed by the beautiful nature. Yosemite Park, Tahoe Lake, Death Valley, Grand Canyon are a MUST. Santa Cruz, Monterey, Carmel are very beautiful places to enjoy ocean view and beaches.

If you are not afraid to walk, go to the top of the Dome in Yosemite Park. You won't regret it.

Grand Canyon is very impressive. I specially recommend a flight with a small plane over the canyon. Unforgetable.

For the cities, I didn't see a lot, but SF and the bay area is great. I also liked spending time in Santa Monica. Vegas is good to see, but I spent only one night there and I think it was enough.

I also enjoyed visiting Universal Studio in LA.

Enjoy your time there !

</comment><comment><USER27> 1) Alaska is a helluva trip if you can manage it. There's an inside passage ferry that you can camp on.

2) Sublets! Great deals, oftentimes. Craigslist.

5) If you need Seattle/Alaska advice, email me.

</comment><comment><USER22> If you go to Vancouver, I'd recommend staying downtown and experiencing that lifestyle. You might not need to use your car for weeks. Go to Cafe Artigiano or JJ Bean for great coffee. Too many great places to eat but I'll mention Guu (<http://www.guu-izakaya.com/>) and Hapa Izakaya (<http://www.hapaizakaya.com/>).

</comment><comment><USER28> This may be something you have considered, but you might want to consider an automated online back-up service rather than an external hard-drive. Less stuff to carry around and much more insurance.

Hope you have a great trip... Good luck. I live in Columbus, OH so if you are ever around, drop me a line (email is in profile)

</comment><comment><USER29> Any reason for staying in the country?

Drive up and down Highway 101 and you are pretty much done. (I've been all over the west coast)

We can meet up when you come to Seattle (gmail kirubakaran)

<comment><USER16> Yeah, I5 south of Redding is _boring_ , and so is Sacramento for that matter. Take 101/1 south - leave I5 in Grants Pass and go the inland coast route. It's a beautiful, if slower drive.

<comment><USER30> But if you're going to do that in the winter, make sure you take the right road.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim#The_Kims_become_snowb...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim#The_Kims_become_snowbound_in_the_wilderness)

<comment><USER16> It's pretty easy to stick with 199 through Grants Pass, and in reality, the coast route is probably less likely to get snow than I5, which has a number of reasonably high passes near the Oregon border. The road those guys took was just asking for trouble at that time of year:-/

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Check out <http://www.airbedandbreakfast.com/>

I am in Portland, OR, You can kick it at my place if you need a place for sometime.

</comment><comment><USER32> In the bay area: hit Lake Tahoe, Napa, Yosemite. I'd be happy to meet up when you're in town (check my profile for contact info).

</comment><comment><USER33> when in Portland, Oregon, don't miss the Bend-Crater lake area. Also from Seattle I would strongly (very) recommend taking the scenic US101 instead of the interstate (I5)....lot of beautiful small towns with nice hotels/ restaurants along the pacific coast.

</comment><comment><USER34> Don't miss the smaller places like Santa Barbara.

</comment><comment><USER35> I rather like the Laguna Beach area.</comment>


Yahoo Mail moving to React - <AUTHOR> http://www.slideshare.net/rmsguhan/react-meetup-mailonreact <comment><USER2> I am surprised at all of the hate that Yahoo! is receiving for this, in the comments section of Hacker News (not surprisingly). This is great in my opinion, I think React.js is definitely the future of SPA's especially when combined with the Flux architecture. As someone who has been using React on a daily basis for the last few months, I have a severe man-crush on it. It just makes so much sense, combined with something like Browserify and working with a isomorphic workflow (shared codebase front and back-end).

And those who say Yahoo! are just jumping onboard the React hype train or Node.js hype train, you have it all wrong. Yahoo! have been using Node.js for the last few years, in-fact early 2010 is around the time Yahoo! engineers started playing with Node.js, long before it was considered mainstream cool or being used really in any high-profile scale environment.

It is rare that a company the size of Yahoo! truly ever embraces moving at this kind of pace and embracing new open source technologies, languages, frameworks and libraries. Now that Yahoo! have openly declared their use of React on such a large scale, expect it to explode even more so in 2015. For an open source project that is a little over a year old, React is getting the kind of user-base and adoption that most open source projects can only dream of having.

This news excites me. I honestly cannot wait to see how it all turns out.

PS. I have noticed a few people in the comments section getting confused. Yahoo! Mail is NOT using React just yet. The current mail product is still using YUI and plain HTML/Javascript. If you read through, it mentions 2015...

<comment><USER3> I really need someone to explain to me what they love so much about React.js. I tried it out and I absolutely hated the way components didn't understand their relation with other components. I had to chain a callback all the way down to my ListItem Component just so it could set which item was selected in the component and let other components know that. If you ever end up adding another parent component you have to rewrite all those top level components to pass that information down.

<comment><USER4> That's because you used React alone, which works as a top-down view engine. If you want to modify something in the view, you have to go back to the top and modify the model. Instead of doing it manually, Facebook has created the Flux architecture to help you scale this process efficiently.

<comment><USER5> So Facebook created an architecture to solve a problem their new web framework introduced?

<comment><USER6> No, they created an architecture and decoupled their web framework from it.

<comment><USER7> Which was a poor decision, imho. Using React only makes sense with Flux, why separate them? Furthermore, the examples on React's docs use the pass-down- the-event-handlers madness, instead of using Flux. React+Flux is a good solution, but the documentation leaves a lot to be desired.

<comment><USER8> React components can be brought into any architecture. Using them with flux certainly simplifies many things, but by the same token, flux apps can be written using other libraries (react based like om, or even full frameworks like angular). The decoupling is good. It lets you try out a component from [http://react.rocks/](http://react.rocks/) without diving into a fully architectured SPA.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Why on Earth people who aren't merely enthusiasts of "cool async JavaScript with V8" or those who began as a webdevs and knows nothing better than JS and PHP, could choose a single-threaded solution, which blocks the whole app if a single function blocks, and forces programmers to write spaghetti wrappers around asynchronous call-back hells in a non-functional but GC'ed language?

I am really too stupid to get it. "Single language for a whole stack" is a pretty stupid Java-sque argument, a naive assumption that one single language is good for all kinds of tasks.

<comment><USER10> One argument for one language everywhere is the benefits you get from an "isomorphic" app ([http://nerds.airbnb.com/isomorphic-javascript-future-web- app...](http://nerds.airbnb.com/isomorphic-javascript-future-web-apps/))

Sharing code between client and server lets reduce duplication and use the same templating/rendering on both sides. Fits very well with complex single- page apps.

That said, I'm not sure there are that many apps that really need this vs. the tradeoffs you have to make going all-in on JS and the complexity this can bring.

<comment><USER11> Thanks for putting isomorphic in quotes.

<comment><USER12> I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it really does. What happened to just saying that the same code is run on the client and server? Avoids the jargon, doesn't make math nerds mad, isn't that much longer, and says exactly what you mean.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've been a Javascript and Node skeptic for years now but I think the tide is finally turning. So much time and energy has been poured into making JS better that it's finally starting to pay off. Javascript with all the ES6 enhancements is really not a bad language. The runtime performance is already very good and continually getting better. Tools like Typescript and Flow make dealing with larger code bases much easier.

I don't think the other "scripting" languages like Ruby, Python, and PHP stand much of a chance against it in the longer term. They just don't have the resources to compete.

<comment><USER14> > The runtime performance is already very good and continually getting better

Have you checked out the Computer Benchmarks Game? Here are some benchmarks they provide, comparing the JavaScript V8 to Python [1], Ruby [2], and PHP [3].

Looking at statistics such as these, I'm left thinking, "1\. This is awesome! 2. Is there something about these other languages that prevents V8-like performance, or is this more a matter of browser performance being highly invested in by Google, Mozilla, etc.?"

[1] [http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...](http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=python3&data=u64)

[2] [http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...](http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=yarv&data=u64)

[3] [http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?te...](http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=php&data=u64)

<comment><USER15> V8 does precompilation to native code and JIT optimization, which can typically turn numerical computations into efficient, and often highly optimized, machine code. These benchmarks seem to primarily be testing algorithms which require a lot of numerical computation and can take advantage of Javascript's typed arrays, which V8 is designed specifically to optimize.

A somewhat more fair comparison would be V8 vs. PyPy, Rubinius/RuJIT, HHVM, and LuaJIT. LuaJIT and V8 would likely still come out on top due to the amount of work and sheer excellent engineering put into the compilers (and in LuaJIT's case, also the interpreter), but PyPy's performance should be a lot better than CPython's for these benchmarks.

I also imagine (though am mostly speculating) that a benchmark involving a full-stack frontend framework like Angular or Ember, with hundreds or thousands of JS objects and lots of DOM manipulation, should put V8's performance a bit closer to CPython's.

<comment><USER14> > I also imagine (though am mostly speculating) that a benchmark involving a > full-stack frontend framework like Angular or Ember, with hundreds or > thousands of JS objects and lots of DOM manipulation, should put V8's > performance a bit closer to CPython

Interesting idea! How would we make a version of the benchmark for CPython though?

<comment><USER15> You couldn't do the DOM parts, but you could compare Python dicts with Javascript objects, and compare performance when there are a lot of heap allocations and GC calls.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> What an odd trend. First Netflix moves part of their infrastructure to Node ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8631022](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8631022)) and now Yahoo is doing something similar. Node.js is great but I don't think huge enterprise systems for some of the largest brands in the world are necessarily the best fit. I wish they'd provide some insights on why they're making that particular move.

<comment><USER17> Speaking from personal experience, I'm reluctantly moving from my favorite stack (C# MVC) to Node.js in order to be able to build an isomorphic SPA in the most straightforward way. Node is the stack of choice for JS and the obvious choice if you want to render on the client _and_ the server using as much shared code as possible.

That said, you're still free to develop your API using your favorite technologies. To be honest, this is where the heavy lifting is, anyway, so it makes sense to have stronger typing, richer data types, etc. at this level.

<comment><USER18> >...your API...is where the heavy lifting is, anyway, so it makes sense to have stronger typing, richer data types, etc. at this level.

I've had the opposite experience with the SPA projects I've worked on, one of them pretty large.

With the possible exception of authorization/authentication, the API for all my projects has been pretty straightforward, whereas the client-side app has been where I've missed stronger typing and rich data types most acutely, to the point where I've been actively evaluating compile-to-js alternatives with a better/safer type system.

However, with the advent of Facebook's Flow, I might just stick with JS.

<comment><USER17> I guess what I meant was that there can be significant data manipulation at the API level, and this calls for more language and runtime support.

Agreed that client code can become very complex. It's one of the reasons I avoided doing too much on the client in the past. My solution to this has been to use TypeScript, which is fantastic for solving this sort of problem. Yes, it moves away from prototypal inheritance. It also doesn't play nice with JSX. It's still hugely worth it for me. I haven't tried Flow but it looks like it addresses the same problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Little bit off topic but is there anyone like me in community having a problem with liking javascript?

I have worked with javascript for years but it was always for DOM manipulation. When it comes to building an app with javascript, i feel like it is too fragile to depend on.

Anyone can help me to get rid of this feeling?

<comment><USER20> Same here, to a greater extent. Why? At the highest level, because it's a language that was chosen based on a whim (not merit) and is now being extensively worked on and showed down everyone's throats. I like languages, plural. I like new languages. I like to have a choice. (And no, I cannot "simply chose something else" if I have to work with people who say every other choice is invalid _by default_. And yes, this is the mentality I commonly see.) In a way, JavaScript is the new Java.

The core language (syntax, available directives) hasn't changed much since the time everyone deservedly hated it. Its performance was optimized, it got many more libraries and it is still the only language supported by browsers. But the question is, why all of this applies to JavaScript and not Python/Ruby/whatever?

A lot of its benefits people claim simply _weren 't around_ when they chose to stick with it. It's like saying you chose IIS over Apache because of features of C# 5.0 and ignoring the fact that you chose IIS in 2004, where C# 5.0 was not around. It's a dishonest argument.

Speaking of which. How can people claim that JS benefits from the same language running on client and server when 90% of server-side libraries do not work on the client and there are potentially major differences even in core library (e.g. forEach)?

Also, a huge part of JS ecosystem are kludges, crutches and workarounds that make the stack way, way more complex that it should be. (E.g. source maps. Imagine someone minifying PHP for faster parsing and then asking everyone to use some source mapping technology for debugging. They would be laughed out of any conference or discussion.) This mentality permeates _everything_. I mean, seriously, require directives need to be implemented _as a library_? Namespace isolation is a closure-based hack? Can you imaging stuff like that being tolerate for any other language?

<comment><USER21> Are you kidding me? Source maps allow you to debug preprocessed as well as minified code. This allows seamless integration of multiple languages into the same ecosystem, libraries, etc.

<comment><USER20> You develop a language that is sent to the client in plain text. Then you write a lot of code in it. Then you realize that with so much code, file transfers take too long. You write a utility to strip out spaces and comments, as well as change variable names so files are smaller. Okay, so now you have _unreadable plaintext files_. After juggling minified and unminified version of the same code for some years you realize that debugging like that sucks. You develop a new format that allows you to map minified and unminified files. This format requires support on the browser side, as well as in the minification utility, and it also requires the author of the minified library to provide you with two additional files. You declare victory and pat yourself on the back. The whole process only takes a few years.

Meanwhile, people debugged _binaries_ for several decades before your language even been developed.

Do you see anything wrong with this picture?

<comment><USER22> It seems to me, that without linking/debugging tools for {LANGUAGE_X} all your debugging would give you would be assembly symbols.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I see a ton of discussion about the NodeJS decision and almost nothing about the more interesting industry paradigm shift to reactive programming and using functional-style programming in an imperative language.

They're joining the likes of Facebook, Netflix, Square, Microsoft, Instagram, Khan Academy, SoundCloud, Trello, New York Times, and others in adopting reactive extensions.

<comment><USER24> Yahoo is moving to the React javascript library. The "react" in React js does not refer to reactive programming in the "Reactive Manifesto"[1] sense.

        [1] http://www.reactivemanifesto.org/

<comment><USER25> They are also moving to a Flux-inspired application structure which is supposedly very similar to functional reactive programming, which is what the OP was referencing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Yahoo's React/Flux projects mentioned at the end are intriguing. I have tried implementing Flux architecture in an app and found it really tedious and boilerplatey. I'm still looking out for well-implemented Flux dispatcher libraries.

[https://github.com/yahoo/dispatchr](https://github.com/yahoo/dispatchr)

[https://github.com/yahoo/routr](https://github.com/yahoo/routr)

[https://github.com/yahoo/flux-router- component](https://github.com/yahoo/flux-router-component)

<comment><USER27> Me too. Reflux solved it for me and simplified things considerably!

[https://github.com/spoike/refluxjs](https://github.com/spoike/refluxjs)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Here's the associated Yahoo Engineering blog post that goes with the slides. [http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/101682875656/evolving- yahoo-...](http://yahooeng.tumblr.com/post/101682875656/evolving-yahoo-mail)

</comment><comment><USER29> I was hoping to see a conversation around the points addressed in the slides (e.g. how to handle async data in Flux). Instead, it's a bunch of neckbeards whining about people using Node.

<comment><USER30> What's with the neckbeard shaming?!

But seriously you're on HN and you're upset about people arguing/discussing a web technology? I don't even see one mention of "m'lady"

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I can't make arguments about Node's technical abilities, but I like that big companies are throwing more of their weight behind Javascript.

I think Javascript is fun and easy to use. That's good enough for me.

That it helps preserve balance with iOS and Android in the "software eating the world" conversation, is a bonus.

</comment><comment><USER32> With the Opera browser it takes over a second to load the GUI whenever I click something, and the overall design looks like it has been made by someone making his/her first homepage. No wonder they decided to use something that encourage in-line HTML where code and design get entangled like a pile of spaghetti - making it almost impossible to maintain.

In the last years JavaScript has exploded with new frameworks and "compile to JS languages". But I have yet seen anything close to usable. Maybe it's because I've become "speed blind" after coding JS for over 15 years. I do not see all the problems ppl see in JavaScript, until I look at code written by beginners that seem to use every framework out there, and over-complicate the code, and naming everything with one letter variables and the name of their favorite pizzas.

</comment><comment><USER33> It's funny that this showed up on the front page, because yesterday I logged into an old Yahoo email account for the first time in a few years and was absolutely astounded at how awful the UI was.

<comment><USER34> The UI has almost literally nothing to do with the backend technologies.

<comment><USER35> Unless you're unfortunate enough to be working GWT or something similar.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> The exciting part of this for me would be around improvements in Yahoo - removing old cruft code. There's lot of strangeness and/or flat out errors I run into on Yahoo regularly. Any improvement in that regard could be a big benefit.

On the topic of JavaScript - I love Node as a glue. For larger applications - I just don't know how to structure (architect) a large application on a language like JS. Maybe that's just my ignorance.

<comment><USER21> Write modules.

<comment><USER37> That's like saying write classes and methods. Not enough.

<comment><USER21> Yea, I'm not saying it's a miracle cure, but in general I have found the following to be useful:

1) Break any functionality possible into a separate npm module - not just a separate file with module.exports. Keep the npm module small and break it up further if it gets too big.

2) This module will be small enough that it is trivial to debug, refactor, test, and document. If it gets to a size where these tasks are hard for any reason and you wish for strong typing or something, the module is too big.

3) Please make sure that you do test and document the module. This will make your team way faster in the future.

<comment><USER38> I don't know, I kinda wish for strong typing even in smaller modules.

[https://github.com/doxout/promise- observer](https://github.com/doxout/promise-observer)

and its statically verified documentation as well (therefore never goes out of date)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Moving to node can be in part a decision to attract fresh talent, as well as keep the current team interested and motivated.

</comment><comment><USER40> Yahoo seems to be championing React more than Facebook! With the flux-router- component they are trying to solve something that FB hasn't really addressed and it shows that they're actively trying to share the solutions to practical problems people come across when working with Flux.

</comment><comment><USER41> Just curious, what are the reasons for 'isomorphic' apps these days? SEO used to be the big reason, but since google and bing can now render most javascript, and since you can use pushState for SEO, that's not really a sufficient reason anymore.

<comment><USER21> Speed on first load I'm guessing? Compatability with screen readers and readability type things? There are many reasons, and it is simply conceptually better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I wonder if the move is the reason Yahoo Mail has become even slower than before.

<comment><USER43> Every time I use Yahoo email in a browser, which isn't often, it's gotten worse. I suspect there's more to it than that...

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Is finding Clojure people that hard (honest question)?

The Clojure + ClojureScript approach has many more batteries included. You get all the benefits of reusing the codebase on both sides of the fence while the language is solving the "Transactional Store", efficient dirty checks, nice server-side concurrency primitives and many unrelated problems for you.

<comment><USER45> As someone that's recently started working with Clojure (and soon ClojureScript), I wonder the same thing. My first guess is that people are unfortunately and unjustly turned off by its Lisp pedigree.

I've been using and enjoying React and am excited to learn more about Reagent. It seems like Clojure + Reagent will make development quicker and more enjoyable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Considering how awful Yahoo Mail has become, I guess they're just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.

</comment><comment><USER47> Yahoo also had slides about Isomorphic Flux / Dispatchr two weeks ago if you want more infos on how they're using React: [https://speakerdeck.com/mridgway/isomorphic- flux](https://speakerdeck.com/mridgway/isomorphic-flux)

</comment><comment><USER48> I find it funny as Yahoo has Netty which is far better performing and more capable than node.js...

</comment><comment><USER49> Anyone have more insight on why TJ Holowaychuk left Node?

[https://medium.com/code-adventures/farewell-node- js-4ba9e7f3...](https://medium.com/code-adventures/farewell-node- js-4ba9e7f3e52b)

Anyone experience the same?

<comment><USER38> I think that his main issue is/was that node isn't robust enough. I agree, but personally think that promises largely solve that issue. Streams are still a bit icky though.

He also says that node isn't moving fast anymore, which is unfortunately true. The node core team was stuck trying to release 0.12 for quite a while because of some significant changes to internals (V8, AsyncListener). Once 0.12 is out, things should be much easier. On the plus side, the ecosystem is still moving at the same speed which is pretty great, and JS gets new advanced tooling every day: typescript, flow, 5 (!) es6 compilers...

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Node is a weird choice for Yahoo and Netflix: at least it might see the base Node package being improved significantly which is always nice :)

</comment><comment><USER51> But it's still going to be fake desktop app, right? It seems Google is the only one to buck this trend.

</comment><comment><USER52> Slide 11: Even Yahoo's Engineering Manager for Mail crops the ads out their own product screenshots. :(

<comment><USER53> Yahoo Mail Plus doesn't have ads. All Yahoo employees use Yahoo Mail Plus.

<comment><USER54> That's not true. We get the ads too :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Would be interesting to see some performance benchmarks in comparison to previous iterations.

</comment><comment><USER56> "The age of large platform libraries is over."

Boy oh boy do I wish that were the case.

</comment><comment><USER57> React is not even stable yet...

</comment><comment><USER58> Since when has what Yahoo Mail does become relevant again?

</comment><comment><USER59> Welp, time to find a more stable/sane mail host.

</comment><comment><USER60> Do you guys think that we are now moving into a new trend on the client side now? React + Flux vs. Angularjs, Backbone.js?

It seems that every job, even backend positions, require Angularjs or Backbone.js knowledge. Having largely ignored the two and hoping they would die, I am ready to learn React + Flux to accelerate to this cause.</comment>


Consciousness occurs in 'time slices' lasting only milliseconds, study suggests - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciencealert.com/consciousness-occurs-in-time-slices-lasting-only-milliseconds-study-suggests <comment> a-k-h I always thought that consciousness doesn't really exist (eliminative materialism?). So I don't understand what this article is trying to say.</comment>


Worst 404 Page Ever? - <AUTHOR> http://opensu.blogspot.com/2012/03/worst-404-page-ever.html <comment><USER2> It is what it is. Hacker News is a no-frills site. I like it that way :) If it really does bother you, perhaps some greasemonkey might work for you to save you from having to retype the address or hit the favorite again?

</comment><comment><USER3> Pages which are blank shouldn't throw stones.</comment>