After a ten-year hiatus, NetHack 3.6 - <AUTHOR> http://www.nethack.org/v360/release.html <comment><USER2> Fans of nethack and other roguelikes should try Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (DCSS).[1]

You can play or watch games in progress by:

      ssh email@example.com

Use the password "joshua".

It's also available as a standalone program you can run on your own machine.

DCSS has some made some great innovations, such as fantastic use of color and auto-explore, tons of really unique gods and races, it's scriptable(!) in Lua, the list goes on and on...

[1] - [http://crawl.develz.org/](http://crawl.develz.org/)

<comment><USER3> Careful when SSHing into an untrusted host. They can find your public key(s) that way and maybe identify who you are on GitHub.

<comment><USER2> What are some good ways to protect against that?

My first thought is to create an entry in my ~/.ssh/config with an entry for the untrusted host I'm going to ssh in to, using the "IdentityFile" keyword to point to some bogus/misleading identity file. How does that sound?

<comment><USER4> I wonder if you can turn off automatic use of public keys for "*", and then enable it in .ssh/config on an as-needed basis.

<comment><USER5> Totally possible, I do this. Also I have a different key per host (using %h in IdentityFile)

<comment><USER6> Do you use pass-phrases with your per-host keys? I wanted to do this, but was unable to make it manageable. ssh-agent will only try so many keys before moving on.

<comment><USER5> No, I don't use key pass-phrases.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I like this change, adding Terry Pratchett quotes:

"At the time of his passing this year, the DevTeam decided that it would be a fitting tribute to take a number of our favourite quotes from the various Discworld novels and incorporate them into the game. Being the way we are, we did a little more than that. There are now a huge number of quotes from many of the Discworld novels in the tribute file, but this doesn't mean that we wouldn't accept new submissions from other Pratchett fans."

<comment><USER8> And for anyone unfamiliar with NetHack and its classes,

"As some may know, Terry Pratchett was a fan of NetHack, dating back to the time that we introduced the Tourist class which was openly based on the Discworld novels he penned."

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Play once for fun, the next 1000+ times for revenge.

<comment><USER10>
        while True:
            Damn! Dead again.
            OK well I'll stop now, get up, go do something else.
            five minutes passes .....
            OK one more time

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm happy NH is still being developed with new releases, but for me... the rogue-like event of 2015 is ADOM hitting steam:

[http://store.steampowered.com/app/333300/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/333300/)

I know this post is about NH, but some might find this interesting anyway.

<comment><USER12> Never tried ADOM. How does it compare to nethack?

<comment><USER11> ADOM is one of the major 2nd gen rogue-likes (including NH and Angband in this group), and they're similar.

I played ADOM first, so for me NH required re-training; so I may be biased. ADOM offers a more complex world with different endings, compared with NH that AFAIK focus on the Amulet of Yendor only (I might be wrong on this!).

<comment><USER13> Nethack has _lots_ of different unique endings, it's just that that one with offering the Amulet to your God is the only one that counts as a win...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You can play* or watch games in progress by:

$ ssh email@example.com

It's also available as a standalone program you can run on your own machine.[1]

You can follow milestones, defeats, and victories at #nethack@freenode. See NAO[2] for more information!

* NAO currently runs NetHack 3.4.3.

[1] - [http://www.nethack.org](http://www.nethack.org)

[2] - [https://alt.org/nethack/](https://alt.org/nethack/)

<comment><USER14> Also the server admin for NAO is Pasi Kallinen which got added to the DevTeam earlier this year.

From what he told me, he worked hard this year to add lots of what is considered "standard" among the modern NetHack forks. He didn't succeed completely but it's an uphill battle if some of your code changes are code reviewed with comments like "but this won't compile on a pre ANSI C compiler".

I hope he and the other new members will be able to jump start again the development of NetHack.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I nearly got fired cause I played so much nethack at work in the early 1990's.

<comment><USER15> Did you ascend?

<comment><USER10> No, but I did escape once with a fake amulet of yendor. I think that's when I lost my spirit for returning.

One of my favorite things to do was enter a shop and then throw things out the door of the shop so the shopkeepr didn't think I was stealing. Also, can't remember how, but I used to be able to get my pet to steal things from the shop.

Oh, and if you could pick up the corpse of a cockatrice then anything you attacked and hit with it turned to stone. Nice. Maybe you needed to be wearing gloves to do that. Can't remember it was a long time ago.

I did also get addicted to another text based game called "Empire" for a while. I'm not sure if it still exists.

I think I played it on a Compaq 286.

Oh no... I can feel that long faded addiction tugging me back to the console......I'd better call my sponsor.

<comment><USER16> Just checking, is this the Empire game you mention?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Empire)

Or maybe this online mud? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_(online_game)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_\(online_game\))

There are a few in Wikipeda, so there are probably more as well. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_(disambiguation)#Video_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_\(disambiguation\)#Video_and_computer_games)

<comment><USER6> My dad played a lot of Classic Empire back in the day. I gravitated more towards a similar game that I _think_ was called Conquest, where the turns auto-advanced (felt like an RTS) and infantry could cross bodies of water themselves by turning into boats. Wish I could find that one again, I've never found it on any of the 'old games' lists.

<comment><USER17> There was a game called Conquest, which was a fantasy game similar to Empire. I recall that you could play various races, Orcs being one of them, Wizards another. It was very detailed, with each square of the map's terrain having ratings for how useful it was. I remember that there was a note in the source or license that the game was free but not allowed to be run on 'PCs'. (I interpreted this to mean MSDOS machines, and was able to get it running under Coherent). This would have been in the early 90s.

<comment><USER6> The game I played was definitely not a fantasy game, it had modern-type units like armor and airplanes. Neither was the Classic Empire game that my dad played, with aircraft carriers and battleships and the like.

<comment><USER17> Hmm, not sure what game you'd mean, then.

I was only able to find this man page for the game I was thinking of:

[http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/athena/contrib/games/man/man6/con...](http://www.mit.edu/afs.new/athena/contrib/games/man/man6/conquer.6)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Hi. I'd love to try NetHack but the game seems incredibly complex. Is this true? does it have a huge learning curve?

<comment><USER19> If you want to play without external help like a guide or a spoiler, it is almost impossible to get anywhere because the game only gives you little hint of what is happening at a given time.

Using "spoiler file" or wiki, will give you a rough overview of the creature's strength and ability, weapon effectiveness, etc. This is helpful but is not enough to win.

To win you must understand deeply (grok) all the different mechanisms of the game (hunger, prayer, sacrifice, alchemy, intrisics, etc) and then have a strategy.

This guide allowed me to ascend : [https://alt.org/nethack/mirror/homepage.mac.com/mhjohnson/ma...](https://alt.org/nethack/mirror/homepage.mac.com/mhjohnson/mag-r342.html)

This is counter intuitive but the early game is much harder, once you have found the right items, identified important scrolls and potions (about finishing gnome mine & sokoban) the game becomes much easier. And if you are well prepared everything beyond the Valley of Death is kinda boring and "easy". For a first ascension, it is probably wiser to chose an easy class (valkyrie, barbarian, knight, wizard).

Key strategy for the early game are : using your pet to identify cursed items, to not level up too quickly because the generated monster will become too tough, when in a desperate spot engraving "Elbereth" with your fingers might save you a few times[0], praying at the right time, etc

A full game with a successful ascension is about 20-30 hours. However you probably need 50-100 hours of failed attempt to learn the rope first. And it can be frustrating at times because even if you know the game better, it will take some times to make a breakthrough and survive the early levels.

Lastly if you really want to learn fast, play on a public server, and when you are in a very tough spot, you can (at least you could) ask people on #Nethack on Freenode for advice.

In the end, the game is very satisfying, because even if there is a big element of luck, once you know the game well, this is your skill as a player that will determine if you live or die, and this is really rewarding.

<comment><USER20> At high levels you're less likely to die in the simple course of wandering around the dungeon, but there are a number of challenges only encountered at high levels that have little margin for error, and can be swiftly deadly to even a well-prepared character if the player doesn't know exactly how to respond.

<comment><USER19> I agree. I tend to genocide Lich and mind-flayers so there is nothing too bad left if you have enough HP, AC and blessed potion of full healing. But the riders can be scary if you don't know how to deal with them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Is there a source of md5sums for the release tarballs that is independent of Sourceforge?

</comment><comment><USER22> Are there any good versions of NetHack (or similar) for Android? I've never played and it sounds like I'm missing out, but the only time I really feel like I could put in some hours would be on the bus or train or something.

<comment><USER23> Have to say the Android versions all seem pretty unplayable.

Take a subnotebook on the train!

<comment><USER24> Subnotebook? That word is almost as old as NetHack :-)

<comment><USER23> Subnotebooks are almost as cheap as Nethack. A no-brainer for sure!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> My first ascension, 12 years ago.

[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/suraj$20nethack/rec...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/suraj$20nethack/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/WYgbd7FCR4o/4vW8jDHlCWYJ)

What a beautiful game.

</comment><comment><USER26> Ah, Nethack. [http://thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com](http://thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com) !

</comment><comment><USER27> Lineage the Bloodpledge, a hugely successful korean MMO was heavily based on NetHack [1]. It is still one of the most widely played games in the world (mainly in South Korea).

The article below does an excellent overview of its history and inspiration from NetHack.

1\. [http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/the-game-archaeologist- tr...](http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/the-game-archaeologist-traces-his- lineage-the-highlights/)

</comment><comment><USER28> Oh man, i felt it in my water, i checked the site every day for 2 or more weeks, didn't this morning, came on to hn, and lo-and-behold...

</comment><comment><USER29> Curious that they are still on sourceforge.

<comment><USER30> Moving a large project, particularly one that uses lots of the SF.net infrastructure, is non-trivial. Github only provides replacements for some of that infrastructure. Even if you can trivially move all of your code into github, and don't rely on mailing lists, ticket tracker, file downloads, etc. you've still got to update documentation, download links across sites you may not have control over, change code that relies on sf.net links (for automatic updates, etc.).

For the project I work on, we moved code hosting to github years ago, but still have our downloads hosted by SF.net, and haven't even thought of what to do about mailing lists and tickets. We'll get around to moving it all, eventually, but for small teams working on a project with so many users, so many files, so many mailing lists, so many tickets, and just a lot of pieces that make up the "project", it's a lot of work, and the gains may not be immediately felt.

I don't know where the NetHack team is in their migration, but it is apparent they're working on it. I'm not gonna criticize them for not having it done already.

And, of course, there is no guarantee that github won't turn evil, someday, too.

<comment><USER31> github supports file downloads through the releases feature.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> menucolors! pickup thrown! sortloot! use_darkgray! And many more!

Merry Christmas everyone! Awesome :)

\--rog hum mal

</comment><comment><USER30> Well, I sure hope they didn't rush things. Great games take time.

</comment><comment><USER32> The git instructions [1] result in git asking for a password (on Windows).

[1] [http://www.nethack.org/common/git.html](http://www.nethack.org/common/git.html)

<comment><USER14> There's a big red "COMING SOON" at the top of the page.

That's probably why it doesn't work correctly at the moment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I think I last played this on my AT&T Unix PC 7300.

[http://unixpc.taronga.com/games/](http://unixpc.taronga.com/games/)

<comment><USER34> This just reminded me that my first PC was an AT&T 6300. I hadn't thought about that machine in years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I got terrible wrist pain as a 10-year-old playing nethack on an Amstrad 1640 8086.

But totally worth it.

Ascii art never looked so 'cosmic'

</comment><comment><USER36> Anyone have any experience playing NetHack on a Nintendo DS? What's the experience like?

</comment><comment><USER37> I haven't played in twenty years. Is Gehennom still ridiculously tedious?

<comment><USER13> Yes, but wasn't that change less than twenty years ago?

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> this is great, but I wish there was a QT Tile version, as much as I know the term version is The True UI, I still prefer graphics.

<comment><USER39> My favourite version is glHack: [http://glhack.sourceforge.net](http://glhack.sourceforge.net)

It has nicer 2D tiles than the QT ones IMO and you can toggle between the tiles and ASCII mode (with a few enhancements) by pressing tab.

Too bad it's so old. I wonder if there's any chance of it getting ported to 3.6.0.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Thought nethack went rogue but apparently not.

</comment><comment><USER41> How to build on Ubuntu.. for God's sake, why isn't there a script or a configure? I am trying to figure out the sys/Install instructions, getting nowhere.

Why didn't they just make it public on github, and use their issue tracker?

EDIT: actually the sys/Install/NewInstall.unx instructions worked for me, at least it is starting to make.</comment>


Airlines inching closer to dynamic pricing - <AUTHOR> http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Airlines-inching-closer-to-dynamic-pricing <comment><USER2> Sounds like a way for airlines to engage in illegal/unethical behavior (price fixing, collusion, etc.) behind the thin veil of "algorithms." At least third- party referral websites have already done this using cookies, though I guess airlines doing it is the next logical step.

I'll simply have my nephew buy my tickets (for a $5 tip) if they price gouge based on third-party lookup of my personal information.

Airlines will make money from this in the short term, and poorer relatives will too I guess. But I think in the end it's the lawyers that will profit the most. It's a class-action lawsuit just waiting to happen

<comment><USER3> I think they will gouge your nephew more, if he has less money. Offering better benefits and lower prices to frequent customers is widespread across every industry, and airlines want to get in on that too.

It's the opposite model of traditional enterprise sales, where prices go up when the customer has more money.

<comment><USER2> Depends on the implementation. I have no loyalty to any particular airline and someone referencing a third party database containing my address/ZIP/employment history could reasonably deduce that I have disposable income - I could see myself either getting gouged as a result or getting a lower price in an attempt to secure a loyal customer.

An interesting side-effect I just thought of could be that business commuters' flight prices may _increase_ , and business travelers may even _prefer_ that. I have a consultant friend that is allowed to use personal cards for work- related expenses so he would enjoy the increased cash-back and miles. What a world of perverse incentives

<comment><USER3> Seats in the lowest class economy earn miles at -50%, sometimes even -75%. Seats in business class earn them at 300%.

Yup, if you spend more of your employer's money, you earn a nicer vacation for yourself.

<comment><USER4> 0% has become common (think Lufthanasa, Air India or Singapore Airlines)

Tip for the pro: Change your airline. I can recommend Aeroflot and Turkish Airlines.

<comment><USER5> > Aeroflot

I'd rather take a train to gulag than use anything Russia-related.

They keep appearing as cheapest carriers in comparison sites for departures from small Eastern European capitols. Whoever took em before are horrified and never do them again.

<comment><USER4> > Whoeve

Not me. I am an Aeroflot Gold Elite status holder. They have one of the most modern fleets and customer service is pretty good in my opinion. Also the stock does well the last time I checked.

Cheapest carrier?

\- They have a good hub solution via Moscow

\- I assume they have cheap oil

\- I assume they don't have to pay fees to fly over Russia (a pretty big country the last time I checked)

[http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign- airl...](http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-charge-foreign-airlines-to- fly-through-airspace-travel-planes-international-flight-2017-9)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This looks like pure speculation and borderline false.

What is happening: Many airlines are moving toward a better pricing system. If you look at United's recent quarterly earnings call, they talk about how their previous system (age old system) constantly under-forecasts demand leading to lower pricing for tickets. Their new system is said to do a better job leading to better prices realized.

There is no way to dynamically price as shown in the article as a large fraction of the tickets are purchased through third party sites. Except maybe Southwest (which requires people to book through their site), I don't know how any airline can accomplish this. Also, if you show a higher than normal price to a repeating customer - they he will either switch to browsing in incognito or take his business else where.

<comment><USER7> "under forecast"

They just wanted to oversell more.

It's not like with the new system they'll want to oversell less.

<comment><USER3> They're trying to maximize revenue R, which is seat price P times seats filled S. S goes down when P goes up, but the linkage is very complex.

Some people take flights to wherever if it's cheap enough, some fly a given route on given days, no matter the cost. Some will tolerate layovers and transfers for some cost, but that cost needs to be high enough.

Forecasting these components lets you increase total revenue without overselling.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I look forward to gray-hat software that allows you to posture as someone who's very price sensitive, and thereby allows you to purchase tickets fairly cheaply.

<comment><USER9> I would expect that if you did that you must actually _be_ price sensitive. It's an odd sort of recursive problem.

<comment><USER10> Could go either way. Some people will pay lots to save just a few cents more. Kind of like spending time and money to drive further to a petrol station that has slightly lower prices. Or paying lots to your accountant to save roughly the same amount in taxes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I find it odd that they refer to this as dynamic pricing. I know someone in this industry and they've been doing 'dynamic pricing' for decades - specifically pricing for expected and actual demand.

I suspect they've deliberately avoided the more contentious-sounding 'personalised pricing'.

<comment><USER12> I'm pretty sure both of those labels are avoiding calling it what Economists refer to it as: Price Discrimination.

<comment><USER13> Price Discrimination, done well, can be beneficial for market participants on both the buy and sell side.

Businessperson who needs to go somewhere to close a deal? Flight on a very specific day/time on short notice might be worth $5K+ to the company.

Grandma coming to visit the grandkids on "oh, anytime in March or April" might only be able to allocate $300 to the flight.

Businessperson gets to fly where/when they need to go for only $3K. Grandma gets to see the grandkids on a $250 ticket with a lot of restrictions that don't bother her. If everyone had to pay $1.5K for the tickets, it's possible that the airline wouldn't sell enough seats to fly the route at all.

<comment><USER12> Price Discrimination is inherently beneficial to producers since it maximizes producer surplus.

In theory, Perfect Price Discrimination is also beneficial to sub-equilibrium market consumers since they can access goods at prices they can afford. But at the same time it is proportionally harmful to consumers above equilibrium as they start paying more for goods that unaltered equilibrium would have ordinarily priced lower (decreasing their surplus). It's unclear that given the opportunity firms would perfectly price discriminate below market equilibrium at all since it's unclear if the incentive structure would make it beneficial to do so.

And as a whole, to the best of my rudimentary knowledge, it's unclear as to whether or not Perfect Price Discrimination, with the reduction in consumer surplus as a result, would be beneficial to the economy as a whole. A simplistic conservative view would be that Price Discrimination prices goods based on what you can "afford" and therefore lowers prices. An equally simplistic liberal view would be that it's companies taking money from consumers. Neither of which are complete pictures...but factually Price Discrimination is a firm strategy that is a result of non-competitive markets. Generally speaking, non-competitive firm strategies disproportionately favor the firm over consumers.

<comment><USER13> Would you agree that the domestic airline industry is reasonably competitive on the whole? Sure, there are limited gates and slots at some airports, and not every Smalltown USA is served by multiple carriers, but if I wanted to start an airline this year, I could. (I don't, because I'd rather have money... ;) )

<comment><USER12> The domestic airline industry is one of the most flaunted examples of a non- competitive, stagnate industry. High barriers to entry, heavy regulations, limited supply chains are all factors that limit competition. It's problems are frequently written about:

* [https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-ar...](https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21721201-americans-are-treated-abysmally-their-airlines-they-should-look-europe-lessons-lack)

* [http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-airlines-invest-in-for...](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-airlines-invest-in-foreign-carriers-20180227-story.html)

* [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-26/american-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-26/american-air-qantas-renew-push-for-trans-pacific-joint-venture)

* [https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2018/01/stretched-b...](https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2018/01/stretched-budgets)

* [https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/travel-transport-and-log...](https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/travel-transport-and-logistics/our-insights/the-economics-underlying-airline-competition)

Competition isn't a binary thing where either a market is competitive or it isn't, but rather a gradient scale. The airline industry is one of the least competitive industries, especially in the US (my frame of reference), even if it isn't completely without competition.

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the links. I read through them and agree that competition isn't a binary thing. Those articles read to me more like "the airline business is a shitty business to be in because it's too competitive" rather than "the airline business is a great business to own because it's not very competitive"

This quote seemed to summarize my point of view overall:

> Airlines in North America posted a profit of $22.40 per passenger last year; > in Europe the figure was $7.84.

$22.40 per pax looks to be about a 6% margin (avg US domestic RT fare of $354 in 2017). 6% is not quite the bloody competition of grocers (sub 2%), but it's a pretty damned slim profit margin for such a capital and labor intensive business and not anyplace I'd want to put my investment (of time or money) to seek profit.

It wouldn't surprise me if the European carriers had a similar profit margin on their lower priced tickets. I couldn't readily conjure up an estimate of average RT intra-Europe airfares on Google.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Booking flights already has such a horrible user experience, because the princing often seems totally random, and this will just make it worse. Hell no.

<comment><USER15> I would disagree. I track on google flights 3+ months before I want to go and feel that I get a reasonable price every time. 3 months in advanced obviously doesn't work for everyone, but using google flights (or any other tracking site) to track will definitely help you get tickets at the right time.

<comment><USER2> Yep, google flights is especially useful because it makes it easy to observe the effects of arriving/departing a few days before or after you planned to. Another commenter in this thread mentioned that certain booking patterns (e.g. booking popular business routes over weekdays) result in higher prices and this is a great way to circumvent that.

Google flights isn't perfect though. You still need to check a more old-school aggregator (I prefer skyscanner) first before pulling the trigger, and of course Southwest as they aren't on any aggregators that I know of.

Checking out skiplagged is a good idea too because it shows you the hypothetical prices of booking legs of a trip a-la-carte rather than as a full ticket. This has the added risk of leaving you SoL if a connecting flight gets delayed/cancelled, causing you to miss a later flight on the same journey but different ticket. If you're careful to not book flights when you know there might be weather or time concerns, though, it can save you some money. For example, I wouldn't be concerned about flying a leg on ORD-LAX during the summer time with a 4 hour layover because that's unlikely to get cancelled/delayed, and if it is, you could get rerouted quickly. Airlines hate that this website exists which is at least adequate evidence that it can save you good money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Meanwhile, Southwest offers predictable and transparent pricing, and actually makes money.

I always got the sense that airlines spend more dollars to get pennies.

<comment><USER17> isn't the airline industry at a net loss since its inception? I know that is a common belief.

<comment><USER13> _The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money. Think airlines. Here a durable competitive advantage has proven elusive ever since the days of the Wright Brothers. Indeed, if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk, he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down._

\-- Warren Buffett, in the 2007 Berkshire Hathaway shareholder letter

This article (from which I extracted that quote) suggests the industry has been profitable since 2010. Low oil prices haven't prevailed for that entire time, so it's not _just_ that.

[https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/05/7-ways-warren- buff...](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/05/7-ways-warren-buffett- blasted-the-airline-industry.aspx)

<comment><USER16> Airlines are just another common carrier or utility... they were profitable until the GOP deregulated it.

The technology itself doesn't provide competitive advantage, and the local monopoly aspect of the transportation system in the regulated days allowed for sustainable competition. The change you've seen in recent years is another sort of government intervention -- cheap capital has driven consolidation. So instead of an FAA commission allocating gates and routes, companies are buying up the competition.

<comment><USER18> They were profitable because the CAB asked airlines how much it cost to run their business and then worked backward from whatever they said to arrive at the fixed fares for routes. While this is great if you want to build an airline with a giant internal bureaucracy, its not great for people who just want to get from point A to point B.

The members of the CAB were all political appointments and generally did not act for good of the consumer. When Louis Hector was appointed to CAB he insisted that air service be instated to his parent's home town of Carinda, Iowa (as a joke). No one on the commission had any objections.

Incidentally, if you are looking for a good read on the history of the US airline industry from the early days of flying mail routes until the mid 90s the book 'Hard Landings' by Thomas Petzinger is really great.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I, for one, look forward to a ten-fold increase in ticket price when the airlines know my grandmother has just died and I need to fly to the funeral. Rah rah Capitalism!

</comment><comment><USER20> So basic price discrimination [0]?

I thought everyone has been doing this since the early 2000's seeing at is so easy to track people online?

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination)

<comment><USER21> Amazon for sure displays different prices to different people. They'd be foolish not to, considering they know so much about you and your shopping habits.

[https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119399&page=1](https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119399&page=1)

<comment><USER22> Amazon is one of the few companies that has gone on the record and said they do not do this (as a naive 1st-order price discrimination where two people viewing the same item with the same ASIN from the same vendor see two different prices).

(I'm looking for the source link. It was in a different discussion here on HN about price discrimination.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Will this make travel agents valuable again? They would essentially have an arbitrage position by buying bulk tickets early and selling them to customers at a discount compared to the airline price. The airlines win because it reduces risk/uncertainty for them, while the customers win because they pay a lower price. (Unfortunately, the travel agents also soak up nearly all the risk, exposing them to large losses in the event that all travel goes down. All it would take is one event like 9/11 to depress tickets sales and bankrupt the agency.)

> Experts say such technology (dynamic pricing) is most likely to be used to > offer discounts to customers with loyalty status and to generate bundled > fare offerings that fit the customer's profile.

They don't need AI to do that--the airlines could do this already if you log in to their site. But they don't change pricing based on loyalty; instead, they often give "perks" that are not very valuable. And because of the inflation in airline miles, it is harder and harder to get those perks in the first place -- to get a sky lounge membership through Delta requires 47,000 miles, or the equivalent of 10 roundtrip flights from LA to NYC. So, it seems disingenuous to claim that airlines will give preferential treatment to loyal customers. If anything, it would do the opposite: customers who are loyal (and trying to get the next "perk") are more willing to pay a higher price, not less willing!

<comment><USER24> Airline tickets are nontransferable. You can't buy bulk tickets, and you can't resell them.

<comment><USER25> It's true that _I_ can't buy bulk tickets and resell them, some businesses can:

[https://wikitravel.org/en/Airline_consolidators](https://wikitravel.org/en/Airline_consolidators)

I don't know how viable that business is today with the plethora of online booking websites, but I've gotten some good deals from consolidators in the past on international trips.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This video does a good job explaining how airline pricing works nowadays: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qfeoqErtY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qfeoqErtY) Basically, from the info they get, (destination, departure date, return date, etc.) they try to guess what kind of traveler the customer is and price the ticket accordingly. E.g. if there is no weekend between departure and return, they think that you must be a business traveler so the ticket is more expensive.

<comment><USER27> Yeah as a person who works heavily in the airline ticket pricing world, that's not how it works.

<comment><USER28> I fly fairly frequently and cal tell that's not always how it works too. I don't work in airlines but I wager it mainly has to do with demand and filling seats, much like hotels.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm curious about all the people in this thread that think that they can evade discriminatory pricing by using proxies or buying tickets anonymously. Do they not know how airlines work? They can't sell you a ticket without your identity and your identity has to match the name on the ticket. You can't get into the gate without a passport / government ID that matches the ticket. How do you plan to evade discriminatory pricing?

<comment><USER30> The airline has to first name a price before I enter my credit card number.

<comment><USER29> Sure, but airline could show anonymous browsers the maximum price for any tickets, and only display discounts for customers known to be price sensitive.

<comment><USER31> Yes, they could. Or maybe the opposite. So you check simultaneously from two machines. One where you're identified, and the other where you're anonymous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> A lot of interesting things are happening in the travel distribution space. Airlines have discovered retailing and the way we buy tickets will change a lot over the next couple of years.

I would say that true dynamic pricing is probably not for tomorrow, especially for business travellers. Most of business flights are booked via GDSs and integrating these new capabilities is going to take a while.

</comment><comment><USER33> It's really hard to imagine this will be good for anyone except airlines.

</comment><comment><USER34> This has already been done, amongst others by Orbitz which showed higher prices to those searching with an Apple product [1] with the justification that "...Mac customers book the pricier hotel rooms anyway...". Well, that is one way of looking at it, users of Apple products are most likely less price- conscious than average. It does however inevitably lead to a new war of attrition between the pricing algorithms on one side and the countermeasures on the other. Those who believe dynamic pricing will only be used to lower prices through incentives are in for a meeting with reality when the likes of Orbitz flex their pricing algorithms by charging higher rates to those using flagship mobiles, those ordering from up-market hotels, etc.

[1] [http://business.time.com/2012/06/26/orbitz-shows-higher- pric...](http://business.time.com/2012/06/26/orbitz-shows-higher-prices-to- mac-users/)

<comment><USER35> I don't think Orbitz _quoted_ higher prices; they just surfaced higher priced hotel rooms anyway.

I am not a fan of price discrimination, but this is not far from Amazon recommending people who have purchased official Lightning cables, more official Apple products, while recommending people who purchase amazon basics cables more amazon basics cables.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I think it was much of a things 15 years ago. Same was dynamic pricing on Amazon (flushing caches would lead to 30% off).

These days, less of a thing I imagine. People would use things like skyscanner more, up to the point of not going to airlines' websites, ever. I don't think they want that.

</comment><comment><USER37> This is a very good example why you should not let anybody to identify you.

For example if you have purchased a ticket for the price X then it is a clear identification that you are more likely to pay the same amount.

The more information you are leaking about yourself, the more unfair everything is going to be for you.

<comment><USER31> Right. It's good to compare multiple searches.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Just another great example of how big data and AI are making the world a better place! I can't wait until they find out roughly how much money I have and charging me accordingly!

Why should rich people pay the same to fly as poor people? Rich people are soooooo much more stylish when they fly.

<comment><USER39> Yes, the whole thing seems transparently dystopic.

Set aside the notion of "rich". Perhaps in a few decades it will be impossible to ever "get ahead" because with each dollar you earn, cumulatively all of your vendors will find a way to charge you another $0.99.

<comment><USER40> Until one vendor figures out they can take the market by charging only $0.98 for each dollar.

<comment><USER8> By this line of reasoning, every single thing for sale today is at its minimum price.

<comment><USER41> No. Every single thing (excluding occasional inelasticities) is at equilibrium between upward pressure on price (vendor objective) and downward pressure on price (consumer objective).

<comment><USER8> My cow is perfectly spherical.

<comment><USER41> All models are wrong, but some models are useful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Orbitz and others have already differentiated on user agent, right?

IDK if this will make a huge difference for airlines to do. Most folks shop travel sites, where (1) they have to report a consistent price, at least to the agency (2) airlines are side by side compared with their competitors.

</comment><comment><USER42> What's interesting is Uber does this exactly already. They charge what they think each person "is willing to pay", and then pay the driver standard fees per mile.

<comment><USER43> yea, and i hate it there too. we're quickly turning society into a numbers game, making a very low percentage of us rich.

<comment><USER44> Except that someone is getting an Uber ride for cheaper than they otherwise would, at the expense of the person who can better afford to pay more.

<comment><USER45> _at the expense of the person who can better afford to pay more_

But this is a silly argument... if you or I had worked hard for a promotion or a raise only to be no better off because companies try to gouge us, why would we want to play that game? Enriching Uber's shareholders is not an act of charity.

<comment><USER44> I mean, you can say the same thing for progressive taxes. The point is that "gouging" implies something somehow unethical, while price discrimination is at best morally ambiguous because it benefits customers with less means at the expense of customers with more means.

<comment><USER45> _I mean, you can say the same thing for progressive taxes_

No you can't, because taxes theoretically at least benefit The People.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I'm very surprised they're not already doing this. I guess in the future I will have to use Tor and play around with various exit nodes until I find the best fare.

<comment><USER47> You do realize that at the end you still need to provide your name, address, and credit card details right?

<comment><USER48> But they can't change the price at that point.

<comment><USER46> True they can't change the price at that point, but I just tried out for S&G's and apparently all of the major airlines now block Tor. There goes that idea!

<comment><USER31> Well, there's no reason to use Tor, because you'll need to identify yourself before purchasing a ticket. But you can use a VPN service.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Will we also see dynamic seating? I do not mind paying 20-30% for being taller and heavier. I will never be able to pay 200-400% more tho for premium or business class.

<comment><USER49> Those of us above about 6'4" are already in this boat. Pay more for the "economy plusultra" or whatever seats just to get the extra 2-6" of leg room, or suffer knee pain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I also recommend some of the videos on this topic (this is fantastic channel overall):

\- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc)

\- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=069y1MpOkQY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=069y1MpOkQY)

</comment><comment><USER51> I wonder how much of this still applies: [http://www.ai.mit.edu/courses/6.034f/psets/ps1/airtravel.pdf](http://www.ai.mit.edu/courses/6.034f/psets/ps1/airtravel.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER52> > McBride of PROS said that 11 of the company's airline clients are already > using its software to generate real-time dynamic offers within direct sales > channels, including their websites.

So, no changes then? It's just a matter who else will buy their software?

</comment><comment><USER53> Couldn't someone just create a service that spoofs cookies in order to trick the airlines website into giving the lowest possible price?

<comment><USER54> That would require you to know what their algorithms are. I don't imagine they will volunteer this information. The rules could be arbitrarily complex. The bugs in the implementation of those rules doubly so.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I wonder how this will affect the algorithms of fare-prediction tools like hopper.

</comment><comment><USER55> rdiddly meanwhile inching closer to lifelong air-travel boycott

</comment><comment><USER56> Isn't price transparency a basic tenet of free market economics? How does anyone look at this and think it's in the best interest of consumers?

<comment><USER57> No, free markets theories take into account information asymmetries and principal-agent problem.

I don't believe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_one_price](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_one_price) to be true in the general case

      How does anyone look at this and
       think it's in the best interest of consumers?

As the article said, discounts for people very sensitive to the price. Some people might not care about spending 2 % more and want to book their flight right now, and some others are ok to spend time to look for price 2% cheaper (+ taking the time to know about the existence of dynamic pricing and techniques to avoid it)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Nice guy that I am I am giving you my flight tools selection.

[http://statusmatcher.com/](http://statusmatcher.com/)

[https://bookwithmatrix.com/](https://bookwithmatrix.com/)

[http://www.flightconnections.com/](http://www.flightconnections.com/)

[http://www.cleverlayover.com](http://www.cleverlayover.com)

[https://skiplagged.com](https://skiplagged.com)

[http://opodo.de/](http://opodo.de/)

[https://www.kiwi.com](https://www.kiwi.com)

[http://www.expedia.com](http://www.expedia.com)

[http://www.vayama.com](http://www.vayama.com)

[http://www.mobissimo.com](http://www.mobissimo.com)

[http://www.momondo.com/](http://www.momondo.com/)

[http://www.kayak.com](http://www.kayak.com)

[http://www.swoodoo.com](http://www.swoodoo.com)

[http://www.gotogate.com](http://www.gotogate.com)

[http://www.opodo.de/](http://www.opodo.de/)

[http://www.hipmunk.com/](http://www.hipmunk.com/)

[http://faregeek.com/](http://faregeek.com/)

[http://matrix.itasoftware.com/](http://matrix.itasoftware.com/)

[http://www.skyscanner.net/](http://www.skyscanner.net/)

[http://adioso.com/](http://adioso.com/)

[http://www.secretflying.com](http://www.secretflying.com)

[http://www.fueldumpstrike.com](http://www.fueldumpstrike.com)

[http://www.wheretocredit.com](http://www.wheretocredit.com)

[http://www.dohop.com](http://www.dohop.com)

[http://www.easylow.com](http://www.easylow.com)

Please share nice links/tools.</comment>


What's happening in Go tip - <AUTHOR> http://dominik.honnef.co/go-tip/2013-08-23/

<comment><USER2> I'm a professional Java developer, and thought I was fairly trendy because I've introduced Scala in my company's services tier.

About a month ago I started reading HN, and discovered that I'm irrelevant because I'm still using Scala rather than Clojure.

I ordered a Manning book, but before it even arrived I discovered that I'm irrelevant because I'm learning Clojure rather than Node.js.

So I started a couple of personal projects based on Express. However, before I was completely comfortable with callbacks vs. promises, I discovered last week that I'm irrelevant because I'm working with Node.js rather than Go.

Go has been my favorite of the bunch so far. However, I was just started to learn about goroutines and channels, when I discovered three days ago that I'm irrelevant because I'm using Golang rather than Rust.

I like this board, but it should come with a warning label! I haven't been approaching it with the grain of salt that it requires.

<comment><USER3> I don't look at it as being a language irrelevant thing, but more of a critical mass in adoption, and "burn-in" for non-mainstream languages.

If you've been around long enough, you know that something like Clojure, Go, Scala, Python, or even Ruby aren't adopted until a certain level of acceptance is reached, that being often defined by your industry.

At a start-up, anything might go, but at a Fortune 500 company, you might be stuck on a Java 1.4 project. The "drum banging" on HN is often the initial rumblings, or some other point in the adoption curve.

By the way, you forgot about Dart. :-) The performance advantages seem attractive. Is it gaining any traction? One way I try to find out is by seeing if a lot of people are asking questions on StackOverFlow.

[http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart](http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart) \-- 1386 questions so no traction.

A few others:

[http://stackoverflow.com/tags/go](http://stackoverflow.com/tags/go) \- 2697. Not so good.

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/node.js](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/node.js) \- 27, 301 Someone's probably asked all the basic questions.

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/scala](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/scala) \- 17,933 A little light?

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/clojure](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/clojure) \- 5709 - Really light!

If only a few people ask questions a day, and you get stuck jumping in head first, you might regret that later if you're trying to move fast.

Real world example, ...the guys at Twitter went with RoR and ran into scaling problems. Might be different today because RoR has matured?

I wonder if the guys at FourSquare have some growing pains with Scala? If only the build would compile twice as fast...

<comment><USER4> On the other hand Clojure dates from 2007, Scala from 2003. Comparatively, Haskell has 12196 questions, but it is more than 20 years old.

<comment><USER5> It is rather unlikely that people were asking questions about any language on stackoverflow before stackoverflow existed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Go looks like a really nice language, but then I discovered that they don't _want_ to have exceptions. Crazy.

I'm sticking with Erlang, "Let It Crash" (and handle the crash) is better than "add if(err) after everything and good luck with that"

<comment><USER7> Go solves a completely different problem to Erlang. Erlang is built for fault- tolerance and its dependence on concurrency stems from the want of having fault tolerance.

Go does not strive to be Erlang, it doesn't even strive to be fault tolerant. Hell, you can deference a null pointer in Go!

What Go is, is an incredibly simplistic language which can be picked up very easily by even mediocre developers. The language looks and feels like an updated and refreshed C.

Whilst Erlang has a much more rich computation model when it comes to using the concurrent actor system, it also comes at a higher price of complexity. I'm an Erlang developer myself and even I wouldn't like to bestow OTP on a complete newbie. Go doesn't have this, the concurrency features are simple, they're not perfect but they work for their intended use-case.

I'm thoroughly enthralled with Erlang as a language but I know that it has some extremely rough edges. You would know what these are yourself and so I won't enumerate them. Go doesn't (yet) have a lot of rough edges as it feels a lot of careful thought and planning has gone into every feature change. Does this mean that you don't have whizzbang features? Yes. Does it reduce the complexity by a huge factor? Yes!

<comment><USER8> > What Go is, is an incredibly simplistic language which can be picked up very > easily by even mediocre developers.

Every enterprise manager's dream!

<comment><USER9> Nope, that is Visual Basic.

Edit: VB6 - The only Real VB

<comment><USER8> I agree with you if you are speaking about VB 6.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm a bit confused. caption is supposed to be length of underlying array of a slice. What does it mean, concepturally, to create a new slice out of an existing one but with a different length of underlying array?

Another thing is, maybe I'm worrying too much but, what if Go becomes more and more complicated that simplicity is not one of its advantages anymore, and people who're new to the language will get scared?

<comment><USER11> Well, conceptually it means you limit how much you can extend the length of the slice inside the array, not that the array has a different length.

For example, we have:

        full := []int{0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5}
        half1 := full[:3]  // [0, 1, 2]
        half2 := full[3:]  // [3, 4, 5]

Now, the capacity of half1 is 6, so it can "grow inside" half2, such that:

        append(half1, 666)  // Now, half2 is [666, 4, 5]

This may happen even when you are not using append, for example you could do: half1 = half1[:5] and get into half2 again.

The new syntax solves this problem such that, after defining half1 as full[:3:3], if you try half1[:5] you will get an error (the length cannot be larger than the capacity) and if you use append, a new array will be allocated, leaving the contents of half2 intact in any case.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > _Now, why is this an issue in real code? Imagine you're writing your own > memory allocator based on []byte – something that's common when dealing with > a lot of tiny allocations that shouldn't slow down the GC. When the user > asks for N bytes of memory, you return a slice that is a slice somewhere > from that []byte, with length N. Now the user does something stupid: He > appends to it. As we've seen before, this append will "leak" into memory > beyond the length of the slice, and beyond what the memory allocator > intended. You just overwrote someone else's memory!_

So, first: "writing your own memory allocator [is] common when dealing with a lot of tiny allocations that shouldn't slow down the GC".

Second: "Now the user does something stupid: He appends to it. As we've seen before, this append will "leak" into memory beyond the length of the slice, and beyond what the memory allocator intended. You just overwrote someone else's memory!".

Is this what we want to be dealing with in a 2013 language?

I'd rather have full C-like control than such BS edge cases and having to re- implement memory management myself.

</comment><comment><USER13> Does Rust have an equivalent location to get nice summaries of future development?

<comment><USER14> There is 'This Week in Rust': [http://cmr.github.io/blog/categories/this-week- in-rust/](http://cmr.github.io/blog/categories/this-week-in-rust/)

<comment><USER15> That is literally just the past week; there's not really anything for future stuff (there is _so much_ future stuff that keeping track of it all would _almost_ be more work than just going out and implementing it ;) ) other than skimming the mailing list, the weekly meetings and sometimes the devs blogs (which normally get posted to the mailing list and /r/rust on reddit); although the significant discussions do get linked in TWiR, so I guess I kinda lied.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Can't wait for 1.2 RC, there is some good stuff in the pipeline.</comment>


The emergence of laboratory benefits managers: PBM déjà vu? - <AUTHOR> https://www.statnews.com/2019/11/05/emergence-laboratory-benefits-managers/ <comment><AUTHOR> I submitted this because there are more than a few startups in the lab test space (partly to take advantage of CLIA).</comment>


Chrome 31 is breaking sites all over the internet - <AUTHOR> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=318805&q=31.0.1650.48&sort=-modified&colspec=ID%20Pri%20M%20Iteration%20ReleaseBlock%20Cr%20Status%20Owner%20Summary%20OS%20Modified Chrome 31 is breaking sites all over the internet. <comment><AUTHOR> SO Thread on the issue as well - [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19946646/major-bug-in- tod...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19946646/major-bug-in-todays- chrome-update-1000s-of-web-pages-display-improperly/19960262#19960262)</comment>


Eliezer's started updating Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality - <AUTHOR> http://hpmor.com/chapter/90

<comment><USER2> Spoilers. Can a mod point this to the [http://hpmor.com/](http://hpmor.com/) root so unfamiliar readers don't get them?</comment>


Autonomous cars will destroy millions of jobs and reshape the US economy by 2025 - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/403628/autonomous-cars-will-destroy-millions-of-jobs-and-reshape-the-economy-by-2025/

<comment><USER2> too fantastic. I am ok with 20% of what it says.</comment>


Light pollution is threatening our ability to see the cosmos - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/opinion/sunday/light-pollution.html <comment><AUTHOR> There are a number of parks - especially in the US - that have been designated as International Dark Sky Parks that are ideal for viewing the unblemished night sky (at least when it's not cloudy) [0].

[0] [https://www.darksky.org/our- work/conservation/idsp/parks/](https://www.darksky.org/our- work/conservation/idsp/parks/)</comment>


Dispelling the myth of not enough diversity in games - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@DanielVavra/dispelling-the-myth-of-not-enough-diversity-in-games-7b66cde9bbeb

<comment><USER2> Good post. Especially love to see someone who actually experienced communism first-hand make the parallel with progressives' behavior.

<comment><USER3> _Especially love to see someone who actually experienced communism first-hand make the parallel with progressives ' behavior._

There's not much of a parallel. Calling on game makers to make more diverse games is the essence of free market capitalism — consumers driving change with their words and dollars.

<comment><USER2> I was referring to the end of the first part of the article.</comment></comment></comment>


The Kiva Fairytale - <AUTHOR> http://www.nextbillion.net/blogpost.aspx?blogid=3726 <comment><USER3> I agree Kiva should have more results data. The article is fairly lame though.

In one quote is says "With interest rates often exceeding 100 percent," which I am pretty sure is completely false. I have made hundreds of loans and I worry about rates above 40%. I seek lower rates (often between 20-30%) and find them often. The article says Kiva doesn't discuss the rate - but it is shown on every lending page, as a lender you can select based on loan rate (I know, I do).

The article also doesn't provide data either on the failure of Kiva to help. Granted I think Kiva should provide more data on the impact of loans and whether it is helping or not - I like to believe it is but I) do question how useful Kiva really is.

I don't know about expenses for Kiva (though sites like Charity navigator rate it highly). But as a lender on Kiva it really doesn't matter. Kiva expenses are paid by donation. To lend using Kiva you can make donations but you don't have to. High expenses matter it seems to me if you are choosing who to donate to.

Kiva does take advantage of human psychology in a smart way it seems to me, connecting lenders to people that need loans. It is a bit of a fiction as the article points out but it is also real - your re-payments are based on that loan. I see the benefits of that human connection as worthwhile (people like that human connection - showing their photos adds to that) though agree if you want to find fault it is something you can question.

I like another site that provides charity to local groups directly [http://www.globalgiving.org/](http://www.globalgiving.org/) I do figure there is more chance of fraud given the nature of having lots of little organizations that it is hard to monitor. But I like getting directly to small groups that are making an effort and being able to target what you like.

Some sites that have published research on micro lending

      http://microfinanceresearch.org/

      http://www.microfinancegateway.org/p/site/m/

      http://www.cgap.org/

<comment><USER4> The article claims that when you look for specific loans, you're being fooled: the loans have already been made, and the interest rates listed are inaccurate. Quote:

Kiva's initial attraction was that it was a peer-to-peer lender, but it is not in fact a peer-to-peer at all. The loans featured on the website were made months before, and Kiva users are essentially buying them from the banks. But the deception does not end here. Kiva cleverly chooses to reveal out-of date portfolio yields instead of actual interest rates on loans, conveniently and consistently under-estimating the real cost to the poor.

<comment><USER3> Kiva publicly states, and has for years, the loans are made prior to individual funding via Kiva. While I do believe the majority of users don't know this, I think Kiva does a decent job of disclosing it, saying they are being deceptive, I believe is inaccurate.

It is true the yields are quoted as portfolio yields (average for the lender overall). This seems adequate to me. If the yields are not representative (out of date, etc.) that is bad and Kiva should fix. I didn't notice evidence that this was a widespread problem. Kiva also lumps in all costs to the lender so it isn't like many financial institutions in the USA trying to fake low interest rates with lots of hidden fees etc. (though regulation has made it more difficult for financial institution to make loan rates deceitful - <USER2> that they don't try but it is much harder than 15 years ago).

It is peer-to-peer at the essence I think, though it is often not directly that way and I don't think Kiva hides how it works at all. Though I do agree it is easy for someone to not make one or two extra clicks to read a bit about Kiva before making a loan but I think Kiva's balance is fine. Kiva also has a new thing called Kiva Zip that is more "pure" peer-to-peer for people that want that.

I have given to another organization that just made grants (instead of loans) for over 10 years now. Trickleup.org It doesn't have the neat peer-tp-peer psychology going for it. And it is straight charity, not a loan. I have also wished trickleup.org did (or arranged for professors to do) studies on the impact. They have done a bit more in the last few years on the research piece.

I would like more study of Kiva. I want to understand if it is helping and what factors matter. I steer toward lower loan rates but does that really make sense (I figure too high a rate increases risk for the person). I try to lend to purchases of equipment that will increase productivity (though I can't always find those loans) - is that really effective? I also like loans to buy things to rent out devices to increase productivity (some people buy washing machines and lend them out...).

I am very lucky. I like to help give others a chance to gain economic success in the very limited ways I can afford to. I hope Kiva helps, but I do question if it does. And I question if they are focused on growth so much (as most USA based organizations are) that they grow beyond what is helpful. It is possible there is a core that is now say 20% of the Kiva's loans that are hugely beneficial. 50% that are sometimes great, sometimes bad... the value is questionable overall... And say 30% that are likely to just make things worse. But those figures could be anything (from what I know - I don't have any data).

Given what I know I think it is worth lending some money through Kiva. If I were one of those huge foundations giving Kiva millions I would spend at least 20% on research until there was good data on how successful it is and what are the keys for making it work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you're interested in this sort of thing, you might want to give to GiveDirectly instead. It gives grants instead of loans (so interest rates aren't an issue) and is one of the very few charity organizations to do randomized controlled trials to prove its effectiveness.

More detail than you probably want to know: [http://www.givewell.org/international/top-charities/give- dir...](http://www.givewell.org/international/top-charities/give-directly)

</comment><comment><USER6> The article boils down to

1) Kiva spends to much money on marketing and is therefor inefficient. 2) Kiva gets to much media attention. 3) Kiva are attracting more than their share of micro-investors. 4) Kiva does not export Western cultural values.

Regarding number 4, I think individual investors should decided what and what not to fund. I find cock/dog-fighting to be inhumane, but I enjoy hunting, many people would say hunting is inhumane and immoral and a smaller group would go as far to say "eating meat is murder". What about businesses using malnourished horses to transport goods? Should Kiva not fund anything animal related?

As far as only funding legal organizations. I am sure Kiva does not fund narcotic production or gun running. But how can they possibly be sure all businesses they fund are 100% legal, complying with all health, zoning, retail, licensing etc. laws of the local county/state/country?

<comment><USER7> I thought the main gist of the article was that Kiva in the end just doesn't work. The only thing Kiva seems to achieve is to sate our conscience. This concerns me, since I actually did lend a bit of money through Kiva thinking this would really get results.

In the end I'm happy I didn't advertise Kiva to friends and family. I'd have to be 100% sure about the results of any such organisation before recommending it to other people and I guess in the case of Kiva, I never was.

<comment><USER8> It is interesting to see how readers come away with different gists of this article. I do think that Kiva could be a lot better than it currently is, and other similar companies have addressed some of the issues, only they are not as well-known, perhaps because their PR/marketing is not as effective. See some of the later comments in the Next Billion article when Zidisha is mentioned, for example.

But I think you touch on a CRUCIAL point - it helps our conscience. Phil Mader's original post, which I reference, is well worth reading:

[http://governancexborders.com/2013/12/10/kivanomics-101-or-d...](http://governancexborders.com/2013/12/10/kivanomics-101-or- dkyc/)

It is a short piece and eye-opening. I cite a phrase from this article in my piece:

Kiva enables us "to consume the feeling of charity without financial loss"

To say that Kiva simply "just doesn't work" is tricky, because we have to define "work". It depends what the objective is. If the idea is to make people feel that they have done something useful with their $25, which they get back a few months later, it works wonderfully. If the idea is to efficiently transfer spare capital in "rich" countries to "poor" countries (forgive the simplification of terms), it doesn't work very well, as there are far more efficient mechanisms. If it is to provide low-cost funding to entrepreneurs, then it has pretty mixed results which are hard to verify as Kiva (mysteriously) don't publish the actual interest rates. In some cases you can find them out though.

In summary, you are very wise to suggest that an endorsement requires you to be convinved that this is a good business. It appears Kiva did not meet your standards, and I am inclined to agree with you.

<comment><USER9> > If the idea is to make people feel that they have done something useful with > their $25, which they get back a few months later, it works wonderfully.

This is a poison on humanity.

<comment><USER8> I am not sure what to make of this comment - are you suggesting that Kiva is a "poison on humanity" for doing this, or that I am for saying it?! Please clarify! For further reference on this specific point you might find Dr. Phil Mader's post, which I reference, useful:

[http://governancexborders.com/2013/12/10/kivanomics-101-or-d...](http://governancexborders.com/2013/12/10/kivanomics-101-or- dkyc/)

The actual quote is that Kiva allows us "to consume the feeling of charity without financial loss"

You might also appreciate the work of Domen Bajde referenced in Mader's article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Another thing that's interesting is that it's really not all about enabling entrepreneurship. Increasingly, I have noticed loans for education [1], home- building [2], and other needs.

I point this out not to be a jerk. Certainly, these are worthwhile causes in themselves, but there is no lack of traditional charitable giving opportunities elsewhere. I suspect Kiva knows this and is really selling the more differentiated and compelling idea of helping people to stand on their own, as the article mentions.

To be fair, most of their loans are still around enterprise, but I cannot help but wonder if loan requests for such needs reveal that the very idea behind Kiva is unrealistic to some extent. That is, when you have people who don't have homes or basic subsistence wherewithal, is it realistic that they can launch or run a successful business? Is it also realistic to expect that a significant portion of their loans won't end up redirected to other needs? This concern is not helped by the fact that the only updates I've ever received are regarding loan repayment, and not how the recipient is actually faring. It's also not encouraging when I see people requesting loans to pay off other loans. [3]

Recent articles posted on HN have shown that just giving money to poor people with no pretense or payback requirement is surprisingly effective. Maybe Kiva is selling a dream that has greater marketing appeal, but less actual effectiveness.

[1] [http://www.kiva.org/lend/667533](http://www.kiva.org/lend/667533)

[2] [http://www.kiva.org/lend/667257](http://www.kiva.org/lend/667257)

[3] [http://www.kiva.org/lend/652349](http://www.kiva.org/lend/652349)

<comment><USER11> > _Another thing that 's interesting is that it's really not all about > enabling entrepreneurship. Increasingly, I have noticed loans for education > [1], home-building [2], and other needs._

This is actually a not-uncommon catch with regards to micro-credit in general, both in the US and abroad.

At one point I worked for a micro finance institution, having been very impressed with the concept (applied generally) and the goals of the company.

What I realized shortly after joining was that the overwhelming majority of loans issued were for "life expenses" \- which often translates to "buying stuff", although this is of course not always the case.

Ultimately, then, micro-credit in this context is really just lending targeted at an under-served demographic with not-quite-awful interest rates. Certainly not evil by any stretch (and on the whole, a net-positive) - but not living up to the very serene ideals of more Grameen-purist micro finance.

<comment><USER10> > _the overwhelming majority of loans issued were for "life expenses"_

> _micro-credit in this context is really just lending targeted at an under- > served demographic_

I think we have to be careful when providing _loans_ to impoverished people as a means of helping them with _subsistence-level_ stuff. Seems that it is very likely to leave them worse off, especially when interest is involved. Going forward, they now have largely the same income and expenses, yet also a debt to service.

Reminds me of payday loan places here in the U.S. And, it seems difficult to imagine that those who would saddle impoverished people with interest-bearing debt so they can meet basic needs aren't knowingly preying upon their plight.

But, I have no experience working in the field. I'd be interested in hearing success stories or other scenarios to the contrary that you may have witnessed.

<comment><USER12> Two basic elements of underwriting for personal unsecured loans are assessing the ability to pay and the willingness to pay.

If the borrower expects to have monthly expenses which are greater than their monthly income, and therefore nothing left over to make regular repayments of interest and capital as they become due, then the lender has no business making the loan in the first place.

I'm not familiar with payday lenders in the US, but responsible ones in the UK will steer customers to an installment-based product if it turns out they've needed to roll the loan over to the next month, more than a couple of times.

<comment><USER10> There's already an entire industry around making loans to people who cannot afford them. Of course, when the source of the funds is free to the banks, as with Kiva, the economics are somewhat altered.

> _responsible ones in the UK will steer customers to an installment-based > product if it turns out they 've needed to roll the loan over to the next > month, more than a couple of times._

Installment-based products are still debt, right? In fact, I would imagine that to be what's primarily sold to impoverished people who have little-to-no assets. Still, it's no-good when we're talking about debt for subsistence. My view is that it's better to simply give them the money. If the person could not afford to eat without help, what will change to make it so when he now also has an additional expense (debt)?

<comment><USER12> _Installment-based products are still debt, right?_

That's correct. However, as my original comment states, assessing ability to pay is part of underwriting. For an installment loan, this means checking (at least) that someone's monthly/weekly income is higher than their monthly/weekly regular expenses.

The first loan I took was to buy a reliable car (for my journey to/from work). I could not afford to buy that car in cash, but could afford to pay it off within a couple of years, as my income was higher than my regular expenses, and I could use the difference to pay for the car.

 _it 's no-good when we're talking about debt for subsistence_

I agree. It's good mainly for revenue-generating assets (e.g. expanded inventory for your small shop) or cost-saving assets (e.g. a car which doesn't need frequent costly repairs).

<comment><USER10> > _I agree. It 's good mainly for revenue-generating assets..._

Precisely.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> \- Interest rate : You should understand that these are people that no mainstream institute would be willing to lend money to, even at high interest rates. So Kiva's high interest rate is not really high.

\- Marketing expense : I joined Kiva because they said they will make the first contribution on behalf of me. I chose the borrower and Kiva sent the money. I didn't spend anything. I'm sure this would come in as marketing expense. This was one of their largest marketing campaign.

</comment><comment><USER14> Yay for pseudo-journalism! @mfheretic, fact checking your work wouldn't be hard.

Kiva's Response: [http://www.nextbillion.net/blogpost.aspx?blogid=3731](http://www.nextbillion.net/blogpost.aspx?blogid=3731)</comment>


Blockchain & Chinese Food: Monetizing Underutilized Fixed Assets - <AUTHOR> https://kwokchain.com/2020/01/23/underutilized-fixed-assets/ <comment><AUTHOR> There's some good business stuff at the top about startups, but I found the more esoteric stuff at the bottom more interesting.</comment>


PHP plugin for Light Table - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/thierrymarianne/LightTable-PHP <comment><AUTHOR> Premises of a plugin in ClojureScript to evaluate PHP for Light Table.

Any piece of advice about how to implement the evaluation of a code snippet selected in the editor would be highly appreciated ^_^ (considering it would be the immediate step following the evaluation of the whole editor buffer)</comment>


Open-source, minimalistic Android Launcher focused on privacy - <AUTHOR> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sentienhq.launcher&hl=en_US <comment><USER2> It has potential as a mouse-based launcher.

I use _Taskbar_ from f-droid, which activates by touching a screen corner and draws a retractable taskbar over the current application.</comment>


Show HN: React Redux Dashboard - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/uilibrary/matx-react <comment><AUTHOR> If you have suggestions, ideas, please comment. I'll integrate them in future updates. Also don't forget to give a star on github.</comment>


Which programming language is the most female friendly? - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/Computer-Programming/Which-programming-language-is-the-most-female-friendly/answer/Gayle-Laakmann-McDowell?srid=3Upd&st=ns <comment><USER2> Horrible jokes, but the concept is interesting. There is a contructed language called Laadan (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1adan>) that is supposedly female friendly, i.e. "is designed to counter male-centered language's limitations on women, who are forced to respond 'I know I said that, but I meant this'."

According to that mode of thinking imperative, C-like languages would not be female friendly, whatever that means.</comment>


Blog subdomain or subdirectory? Hint: one is 40% better - <AUTHOR> https://buttercms.com/blog/blog-subdomain-or-subdirectory-hint-one-is-40-better <comment><USER2> The link is already down with a 502 error. I guess they are using the one that isn't 40% better. :)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Ha. Looks like it's back up.</comment>


Dear America, I Saw You Naked - <AUTHOR> http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/tsa-screener-confession-102912.html

<comment><AUTHOR> _" Once, in 2008, I had to confiscate a bottle of alcohol from a group of Marines coming home from Afghanistan. It was celebration champagne intended for one of the men in the group—a young, decorated soldier. He was in a wheelchair, both legs lost to an I.E.D., and it fell to me to tell this kid who would never walk again that his homecoming champagne had to be taken away in the name of national security."_

Sums up the article in one paragraph.</comment>


KangarooBox: Win a free T-Shirt! - <AUTHOR> http://www.kangaroobox.com/contests

<comment><AUTHOR> My company is looking for some product feedback and we thought the best way to get it was to give away stuff. Let me know if you have any questions/comments.

      Thanx!
        Richard

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Well, we do have about 100 shirts to give out and depending on the response we could order more. :)

</comment><comment><USER2> You should give a T-Shirt, instead of a chance at winning a T-Shirt, if you want feedback.</comment>


Forgot that url, password or wife DL#? - <AUTHOR>

if you ever sent email to yourself just to save some string pomnia.com might be useful to you. <comment><USER2> nice! finally I can be done with them stupid emails.. I got like 5 different folders, with all my information... not that safe.

Just noticed that your site has 128bit encryption.. sounds good! Its just as good as my gmail, but.. easier ;)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> link: <http://www.pomnia.com></comment>


Not-so-safe Sex - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/07/entertainment-pornography-condoms-opinions-contributors-alexandre-padilla.html <comment><USER2> Aside from the public watching people having unprotected sex (which isn't really unprotected - they are extensively tested and the chain of sexual partners is well documented in case there is an outbreak. Plus every female actor is on some form of birth control), what is the problem that they are trying to solve here?

Like he said, there was only one outbreak in that community, which is far better than your average college campus. Plus aren't these films intended for people 18+ who are supposed to be able to separate out fantasy from reality?

<comment><USER3> You are living in a fantasy land. If you actually had the time to talk to real porn stars who aren't being managed by a handler, they would tell you a completely different story. What you say may be true of the really big, "high brow" porn companies, but it is certainly not true for the bulk of the porn that is produced in the US.

Ask one of the doctors whose job it is to do this testing, not just for HIV, but for the whole range of STDs. I was told by one former porn star who has interviewed said doctors that somewhere around 65% of the porn stars he tests have Herpes.

I have also heard Audrey Hollander admit, in an interview, that if you have been in that industry for any amount of time, then you have herpes, period.

There is so much evil crap going on in this industry, but there is also a whole lot of denial among porn consumers who justify their habits by statements much like yours.

[http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-stars-speak-out-stds- drugs...](http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-stars-speak-out-stds-drugs-and- abuse)

[http://www.jupaman.com/2008/04/23/genital-herpes-and- pornogr...](http://www.jupaman.com/2008/04/23/genital-herpes-and- pornographythe-hidden-side-of-porn/)

<comment><USER4> Check the CDC site for info on herpes. Something like one in 5 people have it, that means if you're even moderately sexually active you probably do as well. The vast majority of the population is asymptomatic which is why there's such a stigma over the virus. In reality it's not a big deal at all. Freaking out over herpes is as silly as freaking out over HPV which is so common it might as well be a genetic marker for losing your virginity.

<comment><USER5> Herpes may not kill like HIV does, but it likely makes one wish one were dead. You say it's fine to have herpes, when in reality it is not. At all. It affects your sexual life, hence it affects your personal life as well. A pregnant woman with an herpes outbreak is endangering her baby. There's a very good reason society's morals have evolved towards condemning promiscuity. The sex revolution only happened a few decades ago because of penicilin and antibiotics. Sure, many people carry the HSV without even knowing it, but that does not mean it's OK to have it. And, as you know, it is known that HPV causes cancer, so I don't think it's OK to carry it as well.

In the end, the only truly safe sex is masturbation, but that's not a life option I recommend to anyone. When teenagers are educated on sex via porn movies, promoting safe sex is the responsible thing to do. If the no-condom movies went underground, then one could ban them. Or rate them as akin to child porn, and hence, illegal.

In any case, if there are people willing to pay for no-condom porn, then the world is sicker than I imagined in my worst nightmares...

<comment><USER4> I'm sorry but can you tell me how asymptomatic Herpes has a negative effect on one's life? Most people who have Herpes don't know it. Frankly the scare over Herpes and HPV has a lot more to do with shaming people who are sexually active.

I don't think you realize exactly how common these "diseases" are. Roughly 50% of the population carries HPV, sure some strains are linked to cancer but it's quite insignificant compared to the number of people who actually carry the virus. As for Herpes, for it to cause a problem you must be symptomatic, which as I stated earlier the vast majority of the population is not. To use these relatively harmless viruses as a way to scare people away from sex is disingenuous and dishonest.

Whether or not it is OK to be promiscuous in the modern world is a moral discussion, it is perfectly possible to be healthy and have a lot of partners.

<comment><USER5> You have a point. I am not an expert on the topic, but it seems to me that an asymptomatic HSV carrier cannot infect anyone and, thus, there's no health problem, and no negative effect on one's life.

Yes, it's possible to have many sexual partners and be healthy. One only needs to compare the rates of HSV and other STD's in Sweden (where sex education is serious) to places like rural U.S. (where religion, not common sense, dominates).

Yes, there's a stigma associated with HSV and other similar virus. Epstein- Barr causes mononucleosis, but there's less stigma associated with it, perhaps because it's the "kiss disease", and kissing is apparently more innocent than fornication. On the other hand, I think stigmas are there for a reason. A legacy of a not so distant past where STD's where non-curable and non- treatable. Promiscuity is a moral issue, so I won't discuss it. I think one's sex life is better without any haunting STD's, and that's why I think it's not responsible to say that herpes is totally kosher. If one catches it, it's not the end of the world, but it's not a pleasant experience either.

<comment><USER6> "it seems to me that an asymptomatic HSV carrier cannot infect anyone"

 _Smacks forehead_ ... That is one of the big reason herpes is so wide spread. It gets pased on by people that aren't having, and may never have, an outbreak.

<comment><USER7> I had shingles (a herpes zoster re-eruption) in 2000. Initially, I wasn't sure if it was shingles or a somehow widespread eruption of cold sores (herpes simplex), so I did some reading up on both. Neither is contagious except when they are presenting, ie when sores are present.

<comment><USER8> Your claim appears to be false -- genital HSV can be transmitted whenever the virus is being shed, which can happen in the absence of symptoms.

Wikipedia (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_simplex_virus>) disagrees at the end of the first paragraph, above the ToC. I'm at a major research university, so I was able to check their citation and confirm that it does in fact 1) appear to be a seminar/survey from a legitimate scientific journal (Lancet) and 2) say that viral shedding in the absence of sores is possible, citing what appear to be first-hand studies. I'll reproduce the citations here:

60 Lang A, Nikolich-Zugich J. Development and migration of protective CD8+ T cells into the nervous system following ocular herpes simplex virus-1 infection. J Immunol 2005; 174: 2919–25.

62 Wald A, Zeh J, Selke S, Ashley RL, Corey L. Virologic characteristics of subclinical and symptomatic genital herpes infections. N Engl J Med 1995; 333: 770–75.

I was able to locate a (I think) public copy of the second study, by Wald et al.: [http://depts.washington.edu/herpes/php_uploads/publications/...](http://depts.washington.edu/herpes/php_uploads/publications/Virologic%20characteristics.pdf)

The abstract of the paper reports that "Among women with genital HSV-2 infection, subclinical shedding occurred on a mean of 2 percent of the days." Subclinical shedding is defined in the body of the paper, specifically under the "Statistical Analysis" heading on the first page, as "the isolation of HSV from the cervix, vulva, or rectum in the absence of genital or perianal lesions noted by the subjects or the clinicians."

In summary, at least one study has proven that herpes shedding is possible without the presence of sores. I apologize for going to so much trouble to prove you wrong, but it's dangerous for people to be wrong about the possibility of transmission of STDs.

<comment><USER5> To be entirely precise, there's no such thing as genital HSV. There's HSV1 and HSV2. If I remember correctly, HSV1 is usually what is referred to as "lip herpes", while HSV2 is usually called "genital herpes". However, one can have sores in other parts of the body.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Marginal Revolution (my favorite economics blog) has an entry on this:

[http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/12...](http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/12/condoms- law-nsfw.html)

<comment><USER10> This is a great post. Points out two things:

1\. That this really isn't about the safety of the performers, but more about the fact that people watching the films are exposed to people having unprotected sex, which influences their own action. The anti-AIDS lobby is trying to increase condom use by the public, not decrease AIDS infection in adult performers.

2\. The law is worded such as to include the performers under Cal/OSHA. It could probably be reworked and let them have their cake and eat it too.

<comment><USER7> A commenter there also pointed out that if the performers do become employees under Cal/OSHA, the mandatory HIV testing they undergo will become illegal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Overall I think he's right, but it also reminds me of arguments in the 1960s and 70s against seat belts and air bags: that by adding a new safeguard, people would come to depend on it and neglect other more effective precautions like driving carefully. There is indeed a "risk homeostasis" effect, but history suggests that extra precautions do reduce overall risk.

<comment><USER12> The most important take-aways from that article are that the actors will have to become employees which: (1) makes mandatory HIV testing illegal and (2) makes discriminating against HIV-infected actors illegal. How could either of these things be considered a good for the industry or the employees?

<comment><USER13> Is it really impossible to create a law that makes it illegal to show unprotected sex in a film? I can't see any way in which such a law would require any particular employment regime. Sounds like posturing/obstruction to me.

<comment><USER12> By whom? Apparently the law is worded so that they have to be employees. This _seems_ like it's part of the "this is for the protection of the actors" train of thought because then they call under OSHA. This might just be a way of convincing people that this is all about the actors'/actresses' safety and not about trying to curb public perception of sex with/without condoms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Out of curiousity, how does the industry not have to fulfill Cal/OSHA now? Is it that performers are not currently employees and the proposed law would change that?

<comment><USER2> They aren't employees I'm pretty sure currently. Unsure if they are technically contractors, or if 'actors' fall under a different category overall.

This does seem like stupid legislation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The argument for condom use in porn in not so much about protecting the actors, but rather communicating to the audience that condom use is "cool", "the thing to do", etc. etc.

The gay porn industry is mostly there (there are a few production companies that specialize in barebacking, but they're generally frowned upon).

Whether the govt. should be involved or not is a different question altogether.

<comment><USER16> > Whether the govt. should be involved or not is a different question > altogether.

I think it's the main question, actually.

<comment><USER17> I think I've given up on the questions "is this very bad?" & "should this be illegal" not getting mixed into one.

<comment><USER16> I'm saying that I think it's the main question because if the government doesn't get involved, then people aren't coerced into applying someone's opinion about what is good/bad/desirable/etc, so the impact is much smaller.

Not saying that the two things are one and the same.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "For one, the adult film industry would have to make every performer an employee to satisfy the California's Division of Occupational Safety and Health, better known as Cal/OSHA, laws."

This sounds like the root cause of all the problems he lays out with the new law. Not condoms. I don't understand why he frames the article in terms of condoms. I also don't understand why you wouldn't be able to mandate condom use without making performers full employees.

<comment><USER19> Especially if they're currently able to mandate monthly testing without making performers full employees.

<comment><USER7> That monthly testing will become illegal if they become employees. See the Marginal Revolution post linked to above.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This reminds me of the book More Sex is Safer Sex by Steven Landsburg.

</comment><comment><USER21> That's the same argument for marijuana legalization.

</comment><comment><USER22> People like sex way too much. If you look at it objectively, sex is hilarious, and if it weren't for people's rationality being overridden by their desire for pleasure, everyone would be way too embarrassed to have sex, especially in public.

<comment><USER23> How can you look at something objectively and find humour in it? Humour is a subjective experience.

Similarly, if people were strictly rational, the concept of embarrassment would not exist.

<comment><USER22> Here we have humans: the most ingenous and powerful species on the planet, yet they like nothing better than rubbing their bodies together and making funny noises.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Or the law could require both condom use and std tests

<comment><USER25> The point of the article is that it seems like the law is pointless and only introduces complications and special cases to existing laws. And the simple truth is you cannot stop pornography from being produced, you'll just turn it into a black-market affair. That may be an acceptable problem for certain types of exploitative porn, but for the general body of pornography it's generally a bad idea.

<comment><USER26> The point of the article is to miss the point. It frames the condom requirement as a protective measure for performers, a possibly flawed solution that threatens to cost lives by pushing some performers outside the very effective safety regime that is already in place. However, that is not the intent at all. The intent is to require the porn industry to _portray_ safe(r) sex. The movies do not portray professionals in a highly regulated industry having sex with each other in a professional setting. They portray people routinely having unprotected sex at the drop of a hat with whatever babysitter, repairman, job applicant, or high school student who happens to be nearby.

Whether that's a good enough reason to require condom is worthy of discussion, but this guy evidently doesn't want that discussion to happen.

<comment><USER25> > Whether that's a good enough reason to require condom is worthy of > discussion, but this guy evidently doesn't want that discussion to happen.

So is unprotected-sex pornography the newest scapegoat we're erecting to cover up our profound failures in sexual education? The last 15 years have seen schools engaging in the most ridiculous forms of sexual education imaginable, and then we wonder why people don't make informed decisions. It must be the porn.

It's this kind of authoritarian control-their-thoughts logic that gives rise to all sorts of absurd laws. It's not even clear that it'll do anything. It's legislation for the sake of itself.

So we can have that discussion, but I don't think it's going to go anywhere for that argument.

<comment><USER26> _So is unprotected-sex pornography the newest scapegoat we're erecting to cover up our profound failures in sexual education?_

I'm pretty sure all the supporters of this legislation are strongly in favor of comprehensive, explicit sex education in public schools. The idea that they're working to undermine sex education by using porn as a distraction is ludicrous. If anything, condoms in porn will increase the credibility of sex education in kids' eyes. We know kids are skeptical what they're taught in the public schools is artificial, idealistic BS that will never fly in the real situations they're faced with. (And who can blame them?) We know they're not just influenced by porn but often consciously turn to it as a source of information about sex. Seeing condoms in porn, even if they're only used in 10% of the porn they see, encourages them to think, "Huh, I guess real people actually do this. It's a normal practice that I can reasonably demand of my partners without being a total priss/dweeb." The legislation won't do anything to either promote or discourage better sex ed, but it will make it easier for students to trust the sex ed that is actually offered to them. In what way could it possibly detract from sexual education?

<comment> barry-cotter Sex education has no credibility. Abstinence only sex ed doesn't work, but guess what? Neither does any other kind.

<http://www.mathematica-mpr.com/abstinencereport.asp>

Lack of contraceptive education effectiveness [http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/does_anything_work_in_se...](http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/does_anything_work_in_sex_education/)

<comment><USER26> Here are some experts (the American Psychological Association) who disagree with your link:

<http://www.apa.org/releases/sexeducation.html>

 _The research on adolescents' sexual behavior shows that comprehensive sexuality education programs that discuss the appropriate use of condoms do not accelerate sexual experiences. On the contrary, evidence suggests that such programs actually increase the number of adolescents who abstain from sex and also delay the onset of first sexual intercourse. Furthermore, these programs decrease the likelihood of unprotected sex and increase condom use among those having sex for the first time._

To put your second link in context, the author is a conservative Catholic writer who calls gay marriage "a threat to religious liberty" and accuses contraception supporters of "Condomism" (sounds like Communism, get it?) The first Google result for her name is her home page, titled "Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse - Your Coach For The Culture Wars," though if you click the link it appears the site is defunct.

Here's what she says about childhood obesity:

"My amateur diagnosis is that the childhood obesity problem is a direct result of the whole constellation of social changes initiated by the sixties. Working mothers, feminism and zero population growth all played a role."

I hardly think the APA committee is unbiased, but I think I'll stick with them over "Your Coach For The Culture Wars" who blames childhood obesity on the sixties.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Managed ElasticSearch Now in EU Datacenters - <AUTHOR> http://ne.qbox.io

<comment> vertex-four Assuming that the "in EU datacenters" is mentioned in regards to privacy more than latency (which is likely, following the recent news), the issue is that both the company behind QBox, and the company QBox seem to be using for their servers, are American companies. This means they're subject to the same laws that Google et al are subject to, never mind where the data is physically stored.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think you might be attributing motives where none exist, vertex. We are a US-based company, of course subject to all the same laws. The EU datacenter was in development prior to this news breaking. The effort was solely in response to customers in the EU experiencing latency due to a transoceanic hop. The hop negates much of the benefit of using a full-text search server.

Of course, privacy expectations are set by the customer, who controls access policies.</comment></comment>