How Gmail's Image Caching Affects Open Tracking - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mailchimp.com/how-gmails-image-caching-affects-open-tracking/ <comment><USER8> How Gmail's Image Caching Affects Tracking, short form:

* Loading images is now enabled by default rather than disabled by default, meaning that a larger portion of emails will be tracked, because it's more likely tracking images will be loaded.

* Images are now loaded through a proxy, which means that all tracking images will no longer provide information like cookies, IP associated with the account, etc - the only information they'll provide is "this specific email was viewed by someone, somewhere."

There is still an option to disable loading images by default. Toggling that option still results in images being loaded through a proxy, so the second item above still applies.

As far as privacy goes, the _potential_ level of privacy has increased (the proxy now allows you to load images if you desire without leaking IP etc.). The _average_ level of privacy from the change is a mixed bag - more basic tracking (open tracking) will occur due to the change of default, but with the trade off that more advanced tracking (e.g. tracking IPs, setting cookies for correlation with non-email site visits a.k.a. remarketing) will no longer be possible.

There is _no_ net change to how hard it is to verify whether an address is a valid GMail address - that's already possible by simply talking to a Google mail server.

<comment><USER9> > * Images are now loaded through a proxy, which means that all tracking > images will no longer provide information like cookies, IP associated with > the account, etc - the only information they'll provide is "this specific > email was viewed by someone, somewhere."

No, if you know who you are mailing, you can add their ID to the link of your tracking image, so you know exactly who opened the mail.

<comment><USER10> You've got no guarantee about when that image will be loaded by their proxy, making statistics next to useless.

Google could prefetch those images. Even if the initial tests seem to indicate against this, they can change this on a whim, or they could prefetch with a delay, or they could prefetch only a percentage of those images, depending on ever-changing heuristics. The only useful info advertisers would get from this is that the email was sent to a Gmail account.

Even if they don't prefetch, they can detect duplicates, especially from links coming from domains known to generate tracking pixels and there's nobody else that could do this better than Google. They can also get rid of images that aren't visible to the user (e.g. transparent or white or light gray pixels, or images that are too small to be a part of the content). Tricks like generating images with unique content only work for images with actual content to show.

And it significantly raises the cost of email campaigns too, just as with spam. I don't have spam hitting my Inbox these days and that's not because spam has become impossible. Light spam (e.g. promotions from companies you've got a relationship with) have been moved in the Promotions tab. And I can't remember the last time I've seen real spam hitting my Inbox.

All in all, I'm happy that they are introducing this feature. It's better for regular folks or for me - you know, the kind of people that always click Show Images, because promotional messages are hard to read otherwise (on purpose).

I do hope they provide the option to turn it off. Google is pretty bad at providing choices these days.

<comment><USER11> If you are sending a marketing email to a person, an easy image that has unique data is their name. :) And I didn't even think hard on this. Pretty much any content that could have been easily done as text is easily done as a "dynamic" image.

Now, they can detect duplicates, but only after they have gotten the contents. Unless I am mistaken on anything. (highly possible.)

<comment><USER10> Of course, but it's a whac-a-mole game.

Such instances can be detected (e.g. if you see 100 emails with the same HTML, but with image URLs that are slightly different). Google can then prefetch those images or it can re-enable the optin for displaying just for those emails.

If I were to do email tracking, I would just filter the GMail accounts out of the statistics, because you can't be sure of when GMail's proxy loads those images and what you're interested in is the conversion rate (not in the total number of people that opened their emails, you only care about totals for emails sent and clicks). But a service like MailChimp is not interested in doing this, because MailChimp is a third-party that's interested in showing big numbers to their customers.

And putting these numbers aside, the privacy issues related to IP tracking, or the security issues are gone. So I think this is good.

<comment><USER11> Certainly whac-a-mole. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

For myself, no need to filter them out without evidence. Keep a few controlled accounts to periodically try and see what the delay is. And get extra suspicious if all images are opened at once on a mass send out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There's an interesting tradeoff -- marketers no longer know your location, browser, client or how many times you've opened the email. However, any spammer now instantly knows that the email address is valid.

It's probably an improvement, but not all the way there. For actual privacy, what GMail needs to do (and I realize this is slightly unfeasible due to the amount of email they receive) is instantly open and cache every single email to every single email address (including non-existent addresses).

<comment><USER13> If you want to know if an email address is valid, you connect to gmail's server and send "RCPT TO:<firstname.lastname@example.com>" and they will tell you if it's valid or not.

<comment><USER14> Are you sure about this? Just tested it out:

        openssl s_client -connect  smtp.gmail.com:465 -crlf

        220 mx.google.com ESMTP u17sm2709629qeb.4 - <USER7>
        helo
        250 mx.google.com at your service
        auth login
        334 VXNlcm5hbWU6
        < BASE_64 USERNAME>
        334 UGFzc3dvcmQ6
        < BASE_64 PASSWORD>
        235 2.7.0 Accepted
        MAIL FROM: <my_email>
        250 2.1.0 OK u17sm2709629qeb.4 - <USER7>
        rcpt to: <my_email>
        250 2.1.5 OK u17sm2709629qeb.4 - <USER7>
        rcpt to: <email@example.com>
        250 2.1.5 OK u17sm2709629qeb.4 - <USER7>

I get an OK with BS emails too...

<comment><USER13> You should try telnet to port 25 and don't login. If you're sending what could be an outgoing email, it is more likely to queue it.

        MAIL FROM:<firstname.lastname@example.com>
        250 2.1.0 OK g15si484689qej.92 - <USER7>
        RCPT TO:<firstname.lastname@example.com>
        550-5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach does not exist. Please try
        550-5.1.1 double-checking the recipient's email address for typos or
        550-5.1.1 unnecessary spaces. Learn more at
        550 5.1.1 http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?answer=6596 g15si484689qej.92 - <USER7>

<comment><USER15> Cool, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The blog post is optimistic, but it will have an effect e.g. [https://mailchimp.com/assets/images/features/main_segmented....](https://mailchimp.com/assets/images/features/main_segmented.3442793008.png) Suddenly they don't know the location, OS, browser and referrer. They only know the refined open rate. Good.

<comment><USER17> They know your location, OS, browser from when you signed up for the list in the first place. You did that online if we're talking about e-mail marketing and not some developer listserv. MailChimp in particular does record geo-ip information at signup, so its features based on recipient location should still work the same.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I assume this means that google is caching images only on demand, when the user opens the email first and only then. Otherwise there is no way for them to track the first open.

<comment><USER19> yeah i was wondering that as well. if they tested 'around the office' as the post seems to indicate they might have missed the effect that for every extra person that opens an email the picture is coming from google's cache and thus the open is not counted.

<comment><USER17> > for every extra person that opens an email the picture is coming from > google's cache and thus the open is not counted

Each e-mail has a unique image URL; Google has to make a request for each individual mail even if they're caching images.

<comment><USER19> ok makes sense. a file hash might fix that and save google some bandwidth but i imagine they do not want to break tracking completely for now...

<comment><USER17> To hash the file you first have to download it. Downloading it is the tracking action, not showing it. Deduplication does not affect open tracking pixels.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> How does this help user privacy? Currently your open action is not not tracked via images, since they're disabled by default. With this, anyone can find out when you displayed their email. That seems rather crappy.

Nothing stops Gmail from doing the loading on their side (to hide UA, IP, etc.) but only when you ask for it.

What's Google's motivation for this? Do they do emails that need to be tracked? Are they doing this for themselves to avoid having to special-case their own emails?

Wouldn't it be better to work on a standardized way to embed images in email, so that recipients can get nicely-rendered emails without exposing themselves to action tracking?

<comment><USER21> At least for me, Gmail's image settings have never worked reliably. Maybe they just capitulated?

<comment><USER22> They work fine for me. There's two types of images, embedded images and external images. Embedded ones always got shown, and it's the external ones that are the issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> am I the only one that just have thunderbird on plain text mode with gmail and never display images?

<comment><USER24> This actually brings up a good point. Does this affect IMAP users or any users that not using an Google Gmail App? (iOS, Web, Android, etc) My guess is no?

<comment><USER25> Unless Google rewrites the mails I'd say that IMAP/POP users shouldn't be affected by this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Q: If I set 'display images' to 'off', will Google still retrieve images when I open my email?

If so, then anyone can include an invisible image and always know when I open the email.. whereas before they had no way of doing this.

</comment><comment><USER27> Why couldn't google show images by default before turning on the cache? I assume it's a security issue, but would be interested to hear the reason in detail.

<comment><USER28> Among other reasons, imagine me sending email@example.com an email with  if I knew Example.com was a Rails shop in January 2013. That could have been oodles of fun. localhost:3000 is one of the many, many examples of things that could be put there. Other examples include probing for internal redmine instances, attempting to compromise dev/staging servers which are firewalled from outside traffic, etc etc.

This is _not_ a risk if Google proxies the image -- they'll proxy a 404, because Gmail's servers don't have privileged, cookied access to apps on your internal network, dev boxes, etc.

<comment><USER29> Good point about an outsider potentially poking at internal.corporate.com. Though you could only trick email@example.com into making a GET request in this manner, right? Which ideally doesn't change data, but obviously exposes bigger attack area for vulnerabilities like the rails one.

<comment><USER30> Rails in January 2013 was mentioned specifically because a series of security bugs allowed attackers to achieve remote code execution with specially crafted URL parameters.

Thus someone could get a remote shell on your box running as the rails account, not just access to an internal application.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> We sent a newsletter out today with Mailchimp and didn't notice any difference in opens - I have image display off by default but I think most people don't care, or are using an mobile device and quite happy to see the images. I personally think making it harder to track opens is a good thing. Like Mailchimp says, make your content worth viewing.

</comment><comment><USER32> There's a nice technical explanation of what's going on here: [http://emailexpert.org/gmail-breaks-email-marketing- again/](http://emailexpert.org/gmail-breaks-email-marketing-again/)

</comment><comment><USER33> Wonder if anyone's tested setting no-cache/expires headers on the beacon. I'd like to expect google honoring the cache headers because its a good citizen of the web.

</comment><comment><USER34> I was waiting to hear from you guys and the answer was pretty much what I expected. Thanks for the update, Mailchimp is such a great service.

</comment><comment><USER35> Well, Google _never_ can enable pre-caching of images - simple reason: it would allow an _instant_ check if the email address is valid. Just send a mail and wait a bit - and you'd know if the mail was valid.

<comment><USER13> You know how long it takes gmail servers to respond to an invalid recipient with a 550? About two seconds.

<comment><USER36> 2 seconds? Not true at all, it's just tens of milliseconds. Didn't time it exactly, but it seems 'instant', so it's less than 100 ms.

<comment><USER13> Maybe it hiccuped? It seemed instant for a valid address, but a little slower for invalid. I assumed it keeps used addresses in cache but had to go digging to confirm a negative, but it could be a fluke. Anyway, it's faster than waiting for the image proxy.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


China's Three Gorges Dam could collapse (flooding 400M) - <AUTHOR> https://www.ntd.com/chinas-three-gorges-dam-could-collapse-expert-warns_478009.html <comment><USER2> Facts: (a) water has risen 6 feet above the warning level; (b) satellite images show that dam structure has moved a bit over the years.

Disputed issues: (1) "State experts said the dam had moved a few millimeters, but within the normal safety range.";(2)Independent concrete blocks are not connected to the bedrock below, they're just sitting on top it.

</comment><comment><USER3> _China's state media maintains that the dam is not at risk of collapse, calling it "rumors hyped by some Western media."_

I haven't really heard much about this in Western media. Is that their goto line for everything?

<comment><USER4> Also "authorities have evacuated 40,000 locals" yet its also apparently "hyped by some Western media"... classic propaganda double speak

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is NTD which is very tainted news that even calls the coronavirus pandemic by a different name

</comment><comment><USER6> >China's Three Gorges Dam could collapse (flooding 400M) (ntd.com)

This rumour is brought up every year.

It's also obviously not going to flood 400m even if collapses as the current editorialised HN title implies.

Come back when we have something not from NDT</comment>


French Government To Use PostgreSQL, LibreOffice In Free Software Adoption Push - <AUTHOR> http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/open-source/3400404/french-govt-use-postgresql-libreoficce-in-free-software-adoption-push/

<comment><USER2> The upfront costs of migration (including retraining, coping with missing features, and solving a wide variety of little compatibility issues as they arise) will surely exceed what it would have cost the French Government to stay on Microsoft Office for one or two more waves of upgrades. The important question is: will the upfront cost and disruption be worth it?

The data presented by the city of Munich six months ago provides compelling evidence that the answer is a resounding YES: the _recurring savings_ from migration will exceed its upfront costs.[1]

The city of Munich identified three types of cost savings: (1) it no longer has to pay for license upgrades, eliminating a significant recurring cost forever; (2) its desktop software and hardware no longer have to be updated as frequently, reducing another significant recurring cost forever; and (3) surprisingly, Munich claims its IT department is fielding fewer user complaints with free software, reducing another major cost forever.

\--

Edit: There's an additional benefit from migration not mentioned by Munich which I think will become very important over time. According to this article, the French government intends to reinvest "between 5 percent and 10 percent of the money they save" on contributing to the development of the applications they use, so they will have _direct, hands-on input_ into which features get added to such applications and even how such features are implemented. The French government, in other words, will become a 'co-owner' of these Free Software applications, giving them more control over their own IT future. How much is _that_ worth?

\--

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3787539>

<comment><USER3> Wasn't a huge benefit of the libre-software push by Munich the fact that local jobs would be created by the extension, maintenance and customization of the government systems? ie, instead of paying Microsoft/Oracle/HP/IBM US dollars for upgrades/features, they pay Müncheners some DM/euros for the same.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why are people shitting so much over LibreOffice? I have both on my machine in the office, and I've set LibreOffice to the default and use it almost exclusively. It's faster than Office, has a better UI, more features I see as essential (save to PDF is nice), and the leap from Office to LibreOffice these days is tiny.

<comment><USER5> _Why are people shitting so much over LibreOffice?_

Possibly from past experience; I can't be the only one who's had a red face after emailing a document, only to find out that in Word, the formatting's off _just slightly enough_ to make the entire thing look unprofessional.

This was a good many years ago, and I accept that things may have changed, but Word and Excel work for me _right now_ , and have the added bonus that I can trust what I'm sending to clients.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I realise that this entire situation could be avoided by using tools meant for the job. Sadly, that wouldn't go down as well with a lot of clients who aren't as technically-savvy as the average HN user.

<comment><USER6> send as pdf if you need exact formatting (and not editing), surely?

<comment><USER5> That's why I wrote: _I realise that this entire situation could be avoided by using tools meant for the job. Sadly, that wouldn't go down as well with a lot of clients who aren't as technically-savvy as the average HN users._

Edit: Being more helpful, have you ever had to try and explain to a client _who would much rather be doing other things_ , why they can't edit the document you've sent them?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I remember reading about a largeish legacy French government system migrating to Postgres a couple of years ago, so maybe they've decided Postgres fits the bill for most scenarios they need a DB for.

According to these slides [1] that system did about a billion SQL statements a day at the time, so pretty good going.

[1] [http://wiki.postgresql.org/images/1/1c/PGDayEU2010_CNAF_Post...](http://wiki.postgresql.org/images/1/1c/PGDayEU2010_CNAF_PostgreSQL_migration.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER8> Part of the reason governments are interested in open-source software is their worry about the possibility of the U.S. government's inducing U.S. corporations to put back doors in popular proprietary software.

</comment><comment><USER9> If by "adopted" you mean "are being considered in part of a plan pitched to the Prime Minister", then yes, otherwise... Well let's just say I've worked in a French administration's IT dept and they tend to take their time.

<comment><USER10> It's actively used in various institutions. Relatives working there asked for a little help a few years ago to set up Postgres and migrate their Access stuff over.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Poor French civil servants. Being forced to use LibreOffice is a demotivating and frustrating experience. F.ex. Writer is like MS Word 1997, but shabbier. If you're paying an employee more than minimum wage, don't kill their productivity and motivation by feeding them sub-par tools.

<comment><USER12> I'm amazed this is getting downvoted. I didn't expect LibreOffice's lack of quality to be a controversial fact. I though it was accepted as the status quo. After all, everyone agrees that Gimp is inferior to Photoshop, although it can be used fine in certain scenarios if you are willing to fight with it. LibreOffice is absolutely dreadful, much worse in comparison to Word than Gimp in comparison with Photoshop.

<comment><USER13> > everyone agrees

So let's see some examples then.

Why is LibreOffice "absolutely dreadful"?

<comment><USER14> _So let's see some examples then._

In GIMP, where are the layer groups? The nondestructive editing?

These are _basic tools_ to a professional workflow.

And don't get me started on CMYK. You cannot do prepress without CMYK support; GIMP was going to get it Real Soon Now for the past ten years and it's still not there.

<comment><USER15> The reason for why no CMYK and why no non-destructive editing is that GEGL development took way longer than expected. Now that more and more of the GIMP core is converted to GEGL I am confident GIMP will eventually get these features.

GIMP is the story of what happens when you wait with new features until "the right solution" is completed. Not that I really blame them since they have very few developers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Using PostgreSQL is just a damn good idea. LibreOffice, well I would say not so much.

</comment><comment><USER17> It's a nice idea, better than their mighty OpenOffice Firewall. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4LofqPCQew>

(yes, this is an ex French Ministrer of Culture talking about open source)

<comment><USER18> I don't understand what she's saying, in French or English.

<comment><USER19> Hi,

I'm french.

She's saying that you can protect your computer from illegal downloading stuff form internet using a firewall, and you can get one for free. (fun) She wants to give an example, and she said that on hers gov computer she got an opensource one which is called openoffice. After that she become a meme on french websites.

<comment><USER20> Not exactly, she said that OpenOffice as Office has a firewall. Not that it is a firewall.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> If i had one dollar for every time i saw a "Government X installed open source Y" post... it's started in 1999 and still haunts me

</comment><comment><USER22> This is a good move, any government using Oracle is wasting taxpayers money and being irresponsible and negligent with its citizen's data.

One could talk of NSA backdoors, but there is no need, the security of Oracle products is laughable at best, there is no need for backdoors.</comment>


Of Cats and Manuscripts (2013) - <AUTHOR> http://theappendix.net/posts/2013/03/of-cats-and-manuscripts <comment><USER2> Of possibly related inteerest, a 9th century Irish poem:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangur_Bán](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangur_Bán)

<comment><USER3> That was quite beautiful. Thanks for sharing it.</comment></comment>


What are the fringes of technology today? - <AUTHOR> I'm trying to decide a field of self-study in tech for the next few years. I've always believed that the biggest innovations happen on the fringes of technology(stole that from someone, PG maybe?). Hoping to tap the HN brain for some new perspective, thanks for looking! <comment><AUTHOR> AR/VR, ML, Deep Learning, Blockchain, Voice & NLP (next platform?)</comment>


Amazon Patents Wristband to Track Hand Movements of Warehouse Employees - <AUTHOR> https://gizmodo.com/amazon-patents-wristband-to-track-hand-movements-of-war-1822590549 <comment><USER2> Stepping up to crowd-sourcing movement data and constructing robotic/AI replacements? The AI scare is becoming wider and wider, and this time because of what corporations actually do (rather than mere pandering to the sci-fi crowd).</comment>


Ask HN: How to run a SaaS in an environment with non-supportive parents? - <AUTHOR>

so basically im running a SaaS business. i got a few customers just after a few weeks after launching and focused on making more happen. but... my parents are unhappy that im not working at a job and think im wasting time. even when i convince them that these are monthly paying customers (at least paying $100 and upwards) and that I am confident I can make enough sales within a few months to pay the same salary I got when I used to work as a developer but they are not having it.
I'm half ass applying for jobs I don't even want to work for, just to buy time almost.  I really feel like this is an opportunity for me to make an independent business, I do take freelance projects on the side as well to supplement income but to my parents it doesn't look like a 'job'.
How can I explain it when they won't even listen? They are still stuck with the old school idea of 9 to 5, marrying a co-worker, and that I'm running out of time (I'm 26 and have worked as a software dev for about 2 years at a few companies, I fucking hated it and took drugs and drank).
The office life is really not for me, I really want to work on this and make it financially viable and I have confidence that I can do this. I set out to sell this week and I made it happen. Next week I'll try sell to two people and make it happen somehow. I don't know if I'm being too optimistic but I just see that if I sell to 15 people, I'll make the same salary I used to. That's a totally achievable number in my head. If I even do slightly above it, I'm breaking the salary barrier. <comment><USER2> Not trying to be an ass, but you are 26. Your parents have no say on what you do with your life, unless you are living in their house rent free and they are paying your bills. In which case, they do have some say, especially if you can't pay your bills and they don't see something towards progress as they view it.

I am not suggesting you start a war with your parents, but they will not understand your position easily. Instead try to appeal to their compassion. Explain to them you understand and respect that they are just trying to look out for you but that you have struggled doing the traditional job. Tell them that you need their moral support because their opinion means so much and you want them to be proud of you. Explain to them that you also have to be proud of yourself so you want to give this a go for 3, 6 months whatever you think it will take to get enough people to cover your old salary. I take it you are likely outside the US given the low dollar amount for a developer salary, so maybe this can work out for you since you have a lower threshold (which is awesome).

Also, I recognize that culturally the parent/child relationships are unique, but I think all parents want their kids happy and to be proud of them, so appeal to that.

If all else fails, stall them for a few months, or get some freelancing work to keep them happy and still make progress on your sales.

<comment><AUTHOR> you laid it out well. yeah I think im going to get more freelance/remote based work and then also do sales with this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If you think you need 15 to achieve parity with the old salary, shoot for 30 (as a starting point). Your costs are systematically higher than an employee's, you'll have to pay taxes which were previously not disclosed to you as part of your income, you'll have to buy your own benefits, etc.

With regards to marketing to parents: in a similar situation, my strategy was to position the business as an extended job application to Google ("They basically won't take somebody these days who hasn't demonstrated above-and- beyond capabilities on the Internet") and continue doing so until mom and dad thought the Google idea was stupid when it was obvious that I'd make more money with the bingo thing. Also, try not to let this dominate your relationship with your parents, because their intersection with your professional choices is a very, very small part of life and they are, after all, your parents.

No shame in not liking the office life. It's virtually a cliche among my entrepreneur friends: we do this because we're totally useless for 9-to-5 at BigCo. It may be salutary to broaden your social circle to include some folks who either share your aspirations or resemble the people you want to be like in the future.

</comment><comment><USER4> I can understand your parents perspective . . .

Would 15 subscribers (@ $100 +/-) replace your developer salary . . . that seems a little low

If you like development . . . but not the office . . . think about a remote developer position . . . maybe focus your applications in that direction . . .

If 15 signups would replace your developer salary and you have 3 right now . . . think about hustling using cold calls and cold emails to potential signups and see if you can get that up to 15 or 20 signups . . .

If the SaaS business isn't taking up too much of your time you could consider a remote developer position to make ends meet until your SaaS scales up.

If your parents are giving you a place to live/financial help I would try to obtain a remote position . . . or hustle and scale things up to 15 to 20 signups . . . to show them it's meeting your financial needs. I can understand your parents are a little old school and probably don't understand that SaaS can exceed a traditional income . . . so show them it's working. (That said typically scaling SaaS takes a while so you might need a J O B in the mean time.

Take a listen to . . .

StartupsForTheRestOfUs.com

and read listen to everything by Patio11

If you aren't already.

Good luck . . .

<comment><AUTHOR> sorry 15 X a mix of $100 and 300 plans. so far sold one $100 plan and one $300 plan. so if I can make $3000 a month at least, its not quite my developer salary but its close (Used to make $4000~5000 per month ish.

Seems like I need to up it more but my immediate goal is to get 10 sales this month. If I get more then I would be so happy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Your parents are like your investors in a hostage situation. Convince them. Explain to them what you're doing. Show them examples of other people doing it. Tell them your goals and hit them. Get them involved to some degree. And work really really hard. Don't slack off at all until you're paying your own expenses. No drinking beer and playing video games all day on their dime.

You've correctly recognized the opportunity you have. Not having to worry about living expenses has been the key ingredient in a lot of successful careers. You're ramen profitable on day one. Do something useful with it!

</comment><comment><USER6> When you say "non-supportive", do you mean (1) that your parents think it's a bad idea, or do you mean that (2) your parents refuse to support you financially (housing, food and other expenses) while you're building this business?

<comment><AUTHOR> they think that I'm getting old and that I should go outside and socialize in work environment because they fear that I will become a hermit and never have a family on my own and that they will have to support me forever.

<comment><USER7> In your case 'socializing in a work environment' can mean going to entrepreneur, technology, and other related meetups. Plenty of opportunities to make friends, find co-conspirators, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It sounds like you're doing great! Just tell them you're "interviewing" while you go to a coffee shop, work on your business.

What is your focus/niche for your SaaS? no need to give the site away, just curious.

</comment><comment><USER9> You got it. Stall, sell. Excellent plan.</comment>


Learning to program is hard, but languages are not to blame - <AUTHOR> http://shadowfiend.posterous.com/learning-to-program-is-hard-but-languages-are

<comment><USER2> It is hard for a lot of people to reduce ambiguity in their instructions, to make no assumptions, so that the instruction will achieve the same result no matter who carries it out. That's why programming is difficult. You have to constantly think how someone else (a computer) will interpret you.

<comment><USER3> Agreed. And I would argue that programming languages give as structured a way to do this unambiguously as we currently have. As languages improve, we can improve what the computer can interpret unambiguously (or at all), but that is a long process.</comment></comment>


How VR will disrupt traditional sales and marketing channels - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/What-industries-will-virtual-reality-VR-disrupt/answer/Tom-Janssens?share=1

<comment><USER2> Companies may be able to downsize show-rooms, etc, but there will always be the need to experience physically the item in question. It would be interesting to be able to see more information in these AR/VR modes, like what if you could examine the plumbing blueprints and electrical blueprints of the home? That would be where the real advantage of AR/VR is, in displaying the information that cannot easily be seen.

</comment><comment><USER3> HL3 will be released. It will disrupt the Internet itself.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agreed... And maybe my marriage as well ;)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: In one sentence, tell me a random useless fact.  - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> [http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/top-60-quick...](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/top-60-quick- facts-of-the- summer/?utm_source=knowd.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=60-insane-facts- from-the-summer)

</comment><comment><USER3> Approximately 36 million people starved to death in China in 1958-61, during peacetime and normal weather conditions. And yet it's not in Chinese history books.

</comment><comment><USER4> Bennett Park, in the Washington Heights neighborhood in north Manhattan, occupies the highest point of land in Manhattan, 265.05 feet above sea level.

Fun fact: I used to play there as a kid.

</comment><comment><USER5> Magpies are self-aware and in tests have used mirrors to assist in removing stickers placed on their plumage.

They are also the only species of bird resident in every EU country.

</comment><comment><USER6> There is a way to partition a sphere into six subsets such that, using only isometries, you can build two spheres, identical to the first one, with those six subsets.

<comment><USER7> I thought this was interesting so I googled it. "Oh, that's cool", I thought, "I don't understand anything in the titles of the first 10 results."

[https://www.google.com/search?q=sphere+subset+isometric](https://www.google.com/search?q=sphere+subset+isometric)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Monkeys open bananas from the end opposite the stem.

<comment><AUTHOR> This one made me laugh.

Not that I eat a lot of bananas, but I realize this years ago when dipping in fondue. This way the stalk acts as a holder and it doesn't bruise the banana when peeling. I guess monkeys know best.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> When water converts to steam at 100 degrees Celsius it also expands in volume by 1700%.

</comment><comment><USER10> The U.S. Postal Service has lost more than 5 billion dollars over the past year.</comment>


Java software analyze "The Cuckoo's Calling" and found author as J.K. Rowling  - <AUTHOR> http://entertainment.time.com/2013/07/15/j-k-rowlings-secret-a-forensic-linguist-explains-how-he-figured-it-out/

<comment><USER2> The software is JGAAP (Java Graphical Authorship Attribution Program). [1]

Reading the article makes it clear that it wan't an identification as much as a confirmation of Rowling as the author. The analysis was the result of suspicions triggered by an anonymous tip via Twitter.

The analysis used a corpus of only four authors' works. Rowling was the most likely of the four.

[1] [http://evllabs.com/jgaap/w/index.php/Main_Page](http://evllabs.com/jgaap/w/index.php/Main_Page)

</comment><comment><USER3> The headline sounds like the guy was analyzing texts in general and came up with this match; a needle in the haystack thing.

The story is less interesting. An anonymous Twitter tip said, "Hey I think that J.K. Rowling wrote The Cuckoo's Calling." The result of running it through the software was: yeah, she probably did.</comment>


The science behind why better energy management is the key to peak productivity - <AUTHOR> http://blog.idonethis.com/post/33892676864/the-science-behind-why-better-energy-management-is-the

<comment><USER2> I really have a hard time buying into these sorts of studies. That goes for almost anything related to the human body. The study[1] the poster links to consisted of eight men for two days.

The study goes on to say: "Ultradian rhythms of similar frequency were found in perceptual and motor performance. The rhythms in perception, however, were drastically modified by altering the sampling frequency and were, therefore, attributed to statistical artifact."

I guess the questions I have are: As a programmer, am I in pursuit of heightened motor skills? Is this study statistically significant?

[1]<http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA296199>

</comment><comment><USER3> I think a more important advice than follow the ultradian rhythm is simply to sleep enough. The negative effects on productivity of insufficient sleep are severe but hard to recognize. It's a widespread problem, half of everyone doesn't sleep enough.

I struggle with this myself. I've noticed that if i consciously sleep in excess of 8 hours a night every night my productivity jumps, but i always tend to drift back to 7 hours sleep.</comment>


Volkswagen boss criticizes Germany's decision to privilege coal over nuclear - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-04/climate-emergency-germany-is-wrong-about-nuclear-power <comment><USER3> "According to you, does nuclear energy contribute to the production of greenhouse gasses (CO2) and to climate change?"

In France a whopping 86% of 18-34 year olds answer YES.

Source: p17 of [https://www.orano.group/docs/default-source/orano- doc/presse...](https://www.orano.group/docs/default-source/orano- doc/presse/dossiers-presse/les-fran%C3%A7ais-et-le- nucl%C3%A9aire/20190625_bva-pour-orano_distribution-conf%C3%A9rence-de-presse- et-site-intern.pdf?sfvrsn=227a1c20_4)

<comment><USER4> Which is true indeed!

Nuclear power, in a world where transport emits co2, emits co2 (especially during the enrichment phase).

Just waaaaay less than other forms of electricity production (including solar and wind)

<comment><USER3> It is exactly this which Greenpeace has latched onto for their propagande. The fact that it is true in only the most trivial way is not understood by those on the receiving end.

The end result is a voting population primed to vote against their own interests.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think nuclear power is great. Unfortunately we don't have the means to fix a catastrophe should one occur (and it will, as safe as nuclear is, it it not possible to eliminate the possibility of a serious accident).

'Safety' has to be considered in the context of mitigation options as well as options to correct problems. It's the latter that lets down nuclear - Chernobyl and Fukushima have shown we just can't contain and correct the effects when things go wrong.

Until we as a race figure out how to do that, nuclear will remain dangerous in my view.

<comment><USER6> >Unfortunately we don't have the means to fix a catastrophe should one occur (and it will, as safe as nuclear is, it it not possible to eliminate the possibility of a serious accident).

meanwhile, coal powerplants are spewing out co2, heavy metals, and radioactive particles during normal operation.

<comment><USER7> Nuclear plants produce waste, this means now deciding that humans will have to not mess that up for the next ~100.000 years. Sure, maybe we'll find a way to process it all (or shoot it into the sun with a super safe space elevator?), but right now, this is what we got, and it's really not much:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High- level_radioactive_waste_m...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High- level_radioactive_waste_management)

> There is a debate over what should constitute an acceptable scientific and > engineering foundation for proceeding with radioactive waste disposal > strategies. There are those who have argued, on the basis of complex > geochemical simulation models, that relinquishing control over radioactive > materials to geohydrologic processes at repository closure is an acceptable > risk. They maintain that so-called "natural analogues" inhibit subterranean > movement of radionuclides, making disposal of radioactive wastes in stable > geologic formations unnecessary. However, existing models of these processes > are empirically underdetermined: due to the subterranean nature of such > processes in solid geologic formations, the accuracy of computer simulation > models has not been verified by empirical observation, certainly not over > periods of time equivalent to the lethal half-lives of high-level > radioactive waste. On the other hand, some insist deep geologic repositories > in stable geologic formations are necessary. National management plans of > various countries display a variety of approaches to resolving this debate.

We're the species that used x-ray machines in shoe shops, to sell more shoes than the other guy. We put the guy who discovered the usefulness of washing hands into an asylum, out of sheer pride and arrogance. So great, we have a bunch of "complex models", and that's what we want to gamble it on? The weather forecast also keeps getting more accurate, but few people would bet their own life on the forecast for even tomorrow. But we'll do it on behalf of people who don't get a say?

<comment><USER8> We found a way. It's called thorium. Waste is only radioactive for a century and iirc it's a lower energy. They can also use current waste as fuel.

Reactor tech is 40 years old. If your phone is 4 years old, one might consider it trash. Imagine how good they'd be if the industry innovated even as slow and conservatively as medicine. Oh, there's also liquid sodium and fast breeders.

FUD keeps the tech from advancing.

<comment><USER7> > Imagine how good they'd be

I'm talking about today and the facts, saying "we found a solution" is simply ignoring everything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Its depressing that people voting for "green" parties are actually supporting more pollution.

Nuclear power is the only way to be honest.

<comment><USER10> Solar is the only solution.

<comment><USER11> Why not both?

I believe Nuclear is a better compromise until we reach a level where we can go 100% solar/renewable.

Meanwhile we _need_ energy. I think nuclear is better that fossil

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Nuclear Power is great until it's not. 'Germany is Wrong..' is a bit simplistic. No one would say japan is wrong for shutting nuclear down. Yet Chernobyl was only 30 years ago and fallout was blown over Germany. Some food could not be harvested for years (Mostly mushrooms like my beloved chanterelle •`_´•).

There grew a whole movement out of it and from that a political party called "Bündnis 90/Die Grünen" (the greens) which stand for protecting the environment and getting rid of nuclear power. They nearly overtook the conservative christian party at the last eu elections.

Also it's been at least a 20 year struggle to find a place to put all the nuclear waste, also highly politicised and vastly expensive.

You see, it's a little complicated.

Personally I would be fine with nuclear power as long as externalities are paid by the power companies and we learn how to better handle disasters.

<comment><USER3> > No one would say japan is wrong for shutting nuclear down.

Many people say that, including those best placed to know.

> Also it's been at least a 20 year struggle to find a place to put all the > nuclear waste, also highly politicised and vastly expensive.

All you need is a warehouse. Sure, a reinforced one, a nice one. But there is no need to put the waste kilometers under the ground. It's only so vastly expensive because some people will feel better when it's 'out of the environment'.

<comment><USER12> I overreached a little with 'no one', I admit. I's just, telling someone he is just wrong while there are reasons, idk.

Have not really thought about a 100000 year warehouse that maybe susceptible to disaster or attack, sounds great.

I'm on board if the costs are paid by power company.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't think anyone who didn't live through Tschernobyl, WAA, Castor and the NATO Double-Track Decision with the SS-20 scare can understand why Germany doesn't want nuclear power.

<comment><USER14> ...and the Asse mismanagement [1][2] with costs of 4-6 billion EUR.

[1] English: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine)

[2] German: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schachtanlage_Asse](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schachtanlage_Asse)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I only have a shallow understanding of the economic forces at play in the energy market. But it seems to be that we're just not going to be able to disrupt the fossil fuel industries before it's too late.

Is there someone who's knowledgeable on this subject that can cheer me up with some good data suggesting maybe we can turn this ship around in time? Or should I just start hoping that we miraculously nail fusion in the next 5 years and suddenly find we have absolutely no need for oil / coal / gas?

<comment><USER16> Global solar installation doubling every <3 years ⇨ we will be at 95% solar in less than 20 years:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics)

No miracle needed, no politics needed.

<comment><USER17> > At that rate we will be at 95% solar in less than 20 years

What's the growth rate for energy storage technology that can keep the lights on when it's cloudy or night time?

<comment><USER16> seems to be similar(?):

[https://www.futuretimeline.net/blog/images/1509.jpg](https://www.futuretimeline.net/blog/images/1509.jpg)

[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-47A2m_usNOs/Tg7vhWBqroI/AAAAAAAAFB...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-47A2m_usNOs/Tg7vhWBqroI/AAAAAAAAFB4/tZ8XurvKtXk/s1600/Lithium_Electric_Vehicle_Graph.gif)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Merkel's decision to prematurely shut down Germany's generally safe and successful nuclear power program was quite frankly just stupid.

</comment><comment><USER19> Is there anything new here that adds to the discussion on HN or can we expect the same pseudo-scientific back and forth between "nuclear isn't too bad, we have new reactors" and "it's still not safe enough"? The democratic society in Germany settled on the latter decades ago, I'm not sure why this needs to be regurgitated every month just because some countries settled on the former.

</comment><comment><USER20> The Japanese really screwed nuclear power from a PR standpoint, just when we should be going all-in on it.

<comment><USER21> While the handful of Fukushima related injuries are tragic, they pale in comparison to the thousands of injuries/deaths directly caused by pollution by traditional plants, not to mention climate change.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> A lot of the strong anti-fission sentiments in Germany is buit on emotion and not facts. The debate has been thoroughly poisoned by fear-mongering of the opponents of nuclear power. Interestingly, this was the strategy of environmentalist and left-wing parties jumped onto the same bandwagon. This has been going on for more than 3 decades and the public is mostly trained to ignore any rational arguments (no matter whether for or against). So unless a new generation grows up that is not indoctrinated (for lack of a better term), the decision to exit nuclear power has no chance of being overturned.

</comment><comment><USER23> Was post Japan Fukushima incident that Germany did this as a knee-jerk reaction. Of course, not factoring in the enviromental aspect. Then the big factor that most of Germanies coal electric generating plants sit on the border of other countries, makeing their enviroment/air quality at the mercy of the wind. An often overlooked aspect in air quality in some places - <USER2> of wind and they get somebody else's dirty air and tips the balance triggering the EU to fine the place with the dirty air and overlook the source that may of been within limits (just) but combined with another source that is within limits, tips the balance and you get air quality that's classed as unfit and bad.

So for many neibours, thank you Germany for your pollution so you can carry on burning your toxic coal at any excuse.

<comment><USER24> Hey, please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewars, or any flamewars.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER23> Sorry, certainly not my intentions or intended sentiments.

<comment><USER24> I'm sure that's true. It's just that a lot of these start unintentionally, so we all have to practice fire safety.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Microsoft unveils new Edge browser logo that no longer looks like IE - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/2/20944341/microsoft-edge-chromium-browser-logo-icon-wave-surf-new <comment><USER2> Instead of slowly changing IE, they should announce they launch a new browser

</comment><comment><USER3> If it was orange, it would look like a generalized Firefox logo.</comment>


When Are You Really an Adult? - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/when-are-you-really-an-adult/422487/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> I hold that there is one very specific moment that signifies the transition from childhood into adulthood that is universal for all people – the moment you first realize that when it comes down to it, _you are the only person who is responsible for you_. That eventually, the charity of others will run out and all that will be left is your own reflection staring back at you, at which point you will need to decide whether or not to improve your life or check out early.

Some people reach this point early on in their lives, and others very late. Some people only reach it after undergoing a difficult period and still others reach it with very little drama or pain. I didn't personally come to this realization until I hit my "rock bottom". People never stop feeling sorry for you, but eventually, everyone stops trying to help. When it clicked, though, it changed my life. I've never been the same since, and I believe that's because I made the transition from being a child to becoming an adult.

<comment><USER3> I'd say that the realization that _you are the only person who is responsible for you_ is only half-way there. I'd say that full adulthood realization is that _you are the only person responsible for you, but you are_ still _responsible for other people_.

The reason I say that is I've know individuals who have taken the first mantra to mean that they hold no responsibilities to other people. That it is, in a reductio ad absurdum, that a driver has no responsibility to stay off the sidewalk and that the onus should lie entirely on the pedestrians to dodge her vehicle.

<comment><USER4> > but you are still responsible for other people.

I couldn't disagree with this any more. I've spent years and years of my life trying to be responsible for other people, trying to make their lives the way I thought they 'should' be -- helping people find jobs, encouraging them to do x/y/z. I'd come into people's lives and it'd be like I walked into an old house: "Let's just fix this here, and that there, and pretty soon you'll be so much better than you were before."

What an utter waste of time for both parties. Turns out I don't know anything about what's best for other people, and hardly what's best for myself. My life has been much less stressful since accepting that. I'll gladly lend a hand to a friend who asks for it -- but the 'responsible for other people' phase of my life is over.

<comment><USER5> My father used to say your not an adult until your third child. I think his point was it's not about being independent so much as juggling responsibly when you can't make everyone happy.

<comment><USER6> this.

i've joked before that parenting 3+ young kids is really just figuring out how to ensure one doesn't get neglected any more or less than the others or that it's switching from man-to-man to zone defense. either way, you reach a point where the time/energy/money required to give your loved ones what they need no longer comes from "you" (your sleep/hobbies/friends), but has to be taken from what you can give your other loved ones as you are already maxed physically/mentally/financially. it's then not a matter of "doing everything you can" anymore, but trying to do the "right things" that you can, and balancing consequences of which are dropped and hoping you can mitigate in future. sometimes it works, sometimes it hurts.

friends will then joke "and that's why i'm never having kids" or "that's why we're only having one", but it's not "worse", just different.

<comment><USER7> I personally have made a lot of decisions oriented around the inevitability of this dynamic. I let friends fall away after they move across town or just otherwise lose the ability to stop seeing me regularly. I've walked away from commitments where I'd lost every single reason why I'd made the commitment in the first place, I don't do this lightly. I've let myself become estranged from family for the sole reason they didn't adequately value the effort I went to to see them.

One or two children will be all I have, I am never going to start a startup, band, or other such long shot waste of time. I only have so much to give, and I ultimately will always put myself first, because when I put myself first, the quality of what I have to give to the people I truly care about and who care about me goes way up. The people who fall short of that all have their own lives that I am not and never will be responsible for. I've learned this the hard way too many times.

<comment><USER8> I am so afraid of letting people fall away like you do. I have no idea why. There's something in me that says to keep in touch with everyone. Your way is much more productive.

<comment><USER7> It's hard to close your life off in a healthy way. You have to think hard about things you probably would rather just not think of. Just yesterday a friend of mine miscommunicated with me, causing me to drive 45 mins in rush hour traffic to wait for him in an empty bar for two hours before I went home.

I was livid. I fired off an angry text when he asked me where I was and he chose to argue rather than apologize. In these kinds of situations you have to decide when, why, and how, and whether to cut them off.

I decided that I would use the same rule for him as I do for my lady friends. Always meet somewhere I know and am comfortable with, never somewhere new. That way if they don't show up it's not a total loss. Also never drive anywhere but home, the coffee shop, or my bar right after work. The better and more flexible and more intelligent boundaries you put up, the more and better people you'll bring into your life.

But it takes fearlessness and guts.

<comment><USER9> What was your friend's excuse for not showing up for the meeting he had set up?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've frequently thought this over the past few years, and I feel like the conclusion I have is different than others in this thread.

I don't becoming an adult is really about you, exactly. It's not about your independence, or your actions.

It's about when other people become dependent on you.

I think this is the way that it has long been thought of in cultures outside of the post-Enlightenment West. This was my strong opinion after reading Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, (Russia isn't western like the rest of Europe) and Aquinas, Augustine, and Aristotle. I think that this is in part what the Apostle Paul is saying in 1 Corinithians 13:11 ( [http://www.esvbible.org/1+Corinthians+13%3A11/](http://www.esvbible.org/1+Corinthians+13%3A11/) ), where you'll note that he doesn't say the equivalent of stopping to be like a child meant I had become a man, but rather I became a man, so I stopped being like a child.

I think about soldiers I have met and know. They change when they get to NCO status. I think of the boys I have met from North Omaha, which is arguably one of the worst places in America for young African American males, and that there is a difference between the ones who are the oldest in their families and the ones who are the youngest, even if they are the same age. And I think of my friends, and how we've changed when we've had kids, or when someone started a business and got ( real, not just one of his buddies-while-still-in- high-school ) employees.

Adulthood isn't about you, it's about your relationship to others.

<comment><USER11> Duh, sorry, but the culture and history of Russia (and neighboring slavic countries) is an example of how to run away from all sorts of responsibilities.

Probably it sounds good in our classic books but in reality the only "other people become dependent on you" case is nepotism like in Middle Eastern or Central Asian cultures.

But at least people from these cultures care about their elders and far relatives. Russians do not.

<comment><USER12> What a silly comment.

<comment><USER11> What a thought through objection!

Here's a perfect example of the "responsible" Russian culture: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=438sGy9IE58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=438sGy9IE58)

This video is not fake - I've experienced this kind of alienation (and even hostility) for over 20 years.

<comment><USER12> russnewcomer never implied that Russia had a responsible culture. I think you misunderstood his post. For some reason you decided to use his comment as a soapbox to broadcast your own views. Your comment is a non-sequitur (look it up).

And by the way, fwiw as somebody with multiple citizenships, including American and Russian, I prefer the Russian attitude. People can have different opinions. ;)

<comment><USER11> All people are talking to broadcast their views.

In this case I just opposed to these statements because I thought he had some utopian views of life there:

> It's about when other people become dependent on you.

> I think this is the way that it has long been thought of in cultures outside > of the post-Enlightenment West. This was my strong opinion after reading > Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, (Russia isn't western like the rest of Europe)

Nothing in Russian culture is "long been thought" about responsibility. You could say it about Japanese or Korean cultures probably - people kill themselves there because of failed responsibilities.

<comment><USER10> I don't have any utopian view of life in Russia or anywhere. And I was not intending to make a statement about modern Russia or really Russian culture, more about my observations from reading classic Russian literature. I think modern Russia has, like America, a confluence of old and new philosophies that contend with each other, and produce different results different places in culture.

But in my thinking on this subject, at least, there is a difference between dependency and responsibility that I think maybe doesn't come across the best.

<comment><USER11> Understood, sorry if I sounded rude then.

I've encountered many stereotypes on this topic from non-Russian russophiles in the last politically-intensive years - that's why I responded hotheadedly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm approaching 40. I've never been "aimless", and while I can definitely increase how often I take responsibility, I'm doing well. I own a house, am married, taking care of my mother, employed, socking money away in a 401k (probably not fast enough, but it's happening).

...and I've never felt like an adult. I can have the weird dichotomy of having friends young enough to have missed everything I relate to my childhood, friends that I consider "adult", and yet I still feel like I did when I graduated college.

I have talked with CEOs and VPs or just other coders that are younger than I, yet I "feel" like they are older, more experienced.

I have no idea when I'm really an adult, but I don't expect it will be soon.

<comment><USER14> I was talking to a coworker about this. She is 26 and I said "you honestly don't change, like ever."

Granted, I skipped the part about changes that are surprising, but mentally, we are who we are and that feeling of youth never really left me (nearing 40).

I think that there is only two phases. The day you stop reinventing yourself and exploring possibilities, allow yourself to live in a rut, spend more time in front of a TV than out exploring the constantly changing world, and have nothing to show for the past year's effort but a beer belly, is the day you die. I wonder if that is what was meant by adulthood at one time in the past.

As for feeling "younger" than younger people, well, I've always been sort of an old soul, but I think most people would consider my somewhat childish because I don't think about or talk about my experiences too much. I try to live in the moment and don't feel like I should share some aged wisdom. Life is more interesting and insightful with laughter, IMO.

<comment><USER15> Feel the same way here (about mentally being the same person)

I look at my 90 grandmother and think 'damn she still sees herself as 19 too'

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Boom... Like being a parent or taking care of parents.

For me it was when I got married. At first it was like cool and then it dawned on me that as head of household, I was responsible for more than just ME!

Once my kids were born, a different type of adulthood settled in. The decisions that I had made earlier in my life about things like moving, finances, and doing stupid things on the weekends with my wife weren't as easy to make or not even possible.

And now as time has passed, I've had to deal with aging parents. I now talk with my mom and dad as an adult and not a child. Our discussions when dealing with serious topics related to health or family now weigh heavier on me. I now carry a sense of responsibility with me that I just can't shake.

For me the moment I entered adulthood was the moment I couldn't shake my responsibilities anymore. I also want to point out that I choose to be responsible. Could I decide tomorrow to be irresponsible? Hell yes, but I choose not to because I have people that depend on me.

One last thing, being an adult does not stop me from doing kid like things. I still play plenty of video games like my favorite Black OPS 3 (many hours have been thrown into that black hole of time) and watch cartoons like Bleach (soap opera for nerds).

My two cents worth.

</comment><comment><USER17> I never really liked this question. The article even states verbatim why I have this feeling. "Adulthood is a social construct."

So when we're saying "are you an adult?" I'd like to ask what are we REALLY getting at. An ability to handle X class of situations? An ability to make X levels of abstract reasoning about social processes? There are so many and so variable a set of objective and subjective markers that any sort of broad statement seems useless, at best, deceptive and detracting from the actual markers at worst.

I had a conversation with my father once, something along the lines of, "We really all just get better at pretending, don't we?"

I'm not sure what my "Central point" of this post is, (and it's far from my more rigorously argued ones) so take it as a collection of thoughts on how I've found the most "personal enlightenment" regarding adulthood, as a rather transparent contrived construct; realizing this was (perhaps ironically given my thesis on this) my internal moment of "I have reached adulthood".

</comment><comment><USER18> "There is a time in the life of every boy when he for the first time takes the backward view of life. Perhaps that is the moment when he crosses the line into manhood. The boy is walking through the street of his town. He is thinking of the future and of the figure he will cut in the world. Ambitions and regrets awake within him. Suddenly something happens; he stops under a tree and waits as for a voice calling his name. Ghosts of old things creep into his consciousness; the voices outside of himself whisper a message concerning the limitations of life. From being quite sure of himself and his future he becomes not at all sure. If he be an imaginative boy a door is torn open and for the first time he looks out upon the world, seeing, as though they marched in procession before him, the countless figures of men who before his time have come out of nothingness into the world, lived their lives and again disappeared into nothingness. The sadness of sophistication has come to the boy. With a little gasp he sees himself as merely a leaf blown by the wind through the streets of his village. He knows that in spite of all the stout talk of his fellows he must live and die in uncertainty, a thing blown by the winds, a thing destined like corn to wilt in the sun. He shivers and looks eagerly about. The eighteen years he has lived seem but a moment, a breathing space in the long march of humanity. Already he hears death calling. With all his heart he wants to come close to some other human, touch someone with his hands, be touched by the hand of another. If he prefers that the other be a woman, that is because he believes that a woman will be gentle, that she will understand. He wants, most of all, understanding."

</comment><comment><USER19> There is a mode of adulthood that is dangerous and worth mentioning, which is a kind of hard-hearted acceptance that the world isn't fair, life is full of suffering, and there's nothing you (or anyone) can do about except suck it up and keep going. There's a kind of grim determination to continue despite not wanting to. Maybe it's because you have people depending on you, or maybe it's because you're just very stubborn. To some extent, I associate this mode with the opening scene of "There Will Be Blood" when Daniel Day Lewis' character is injured and spares not a single moment on despair, or self-pity, and gets himself out of a miserable situation, against the odds.

In this mode, there is little time or urge for compassion, or play, or joy. You are a cog in a large machine that values you only and precisely according to your economic function, who's body participates in multiple overlapping patterns of decay, and that's it. Maybe, if you're religious, you can look forward to a happy afterlife (and indeed one can imagine the role of religion in such a person's life is to offer a reason to _not_ act out on the rage that inevitably underlies such an existence).

Almost everyone on HN is lucky to not have to endure this (or at least, for any length of time). And indeed, startups cannot succeed with that grimness. You must maintain your sense of play and joy, I think, to be successful in this space, because this is the most playful and joyful part of the economy! We make stuff that makes people go "ooh" and "ahh", and how can you really do that if you're an adult?

<comment><USER20> This makes me think of the Tribal Leadership book and talk ([https://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership/t...](https://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership/transcript?language=en) ).

Their model has 5 stages. Stage 1 is 'life sucks' and stage 2 is 'my life sucks'. What you describe fits between those stages. Their ideas about stages beyond that are pretty interesting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> You are an adult when people stop caring for you and you start caring for other.

There is a transition when people stop caring for you and you care for yourself but for no one else yet. We call this teens.

Call it what you want, it's not really age dependant. We have simply put words on psychological changes and tied them with age.

Some people become adults at 12 years old. Other at 40. I've met "adults" that are only tall children and children that are short adults.

</comment><comment> norea-armozel I'm barely an adult. Partly because of my bad childhood where I wasn't accepted by my parents and peers as trans. And partly my fault for not getting my proverbial head out of my own ass (therapy, transitioning, finishing my grad degree). Now at 35 I'm just growing up. And I don't mean the basic stuff like keeping a budget and showing up for work doing a good job. I'm talking about making my own circle of friends, actually being me (gender transition), and not being so craven to get outside of my comfort zone. It just seems to me adulthood is that one thing you can't ever be prepared for either. >_> /rant

</comment><comment><USER22> Good grief that was a really long-winded way of saying "it depends on the person".

<comment><USER23> I got about halfway through, then kept scrolling to see how long it really was, especially since I felt that I had gotten the gist of the article... WAY too long for what could be succinctly described in a page or two.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Kipling gave it some thought: [http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175772](http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175772)

</comment><comment><USER25> When you own a tarp.

<comment><USER26> Most teenagers in rural or semi-rural areas are adults by that definition...

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Bah. I think the question itself is silly.

The whole topic is centered around _Adulthood is a social construct. For that matter, so is childhood._ And, at some level, you should realize the classification is, well, hogwash.

I first drove a truck when I was 11. My dad drove tractor all summer starting when he was 9. The 3 year old in Dune killed dying enemy soldiers when 3. These are all presumably adult activities. I substantially took care of a farm at the age of 12.

If you are lucky enough to figure out who you are at a young age, the rest is semi-interesting narrative.

Forget the classifications that others would impose on you. Do what you love, and the rest will sort itself out.

I once had the following conversation with my daughter, i think when she was 15. I said, a bit tongue in cheek, "Be patient with your parents, as they are only now catching up to the notion of who you are, or were, and know they will know no more about you or your life than you did when you were six." She gave a silent smile.

</comment><comment><USER28> Lots of parents here claiming they are more adult than non-parents...

<comment><USER23> Right. As if somehow having children makes you more mature. I know plenty of parents who are just as immature as before they had kids.

<comment> nommm-nommm Seriously. Case in point, my dad.

There's nothing special about having kids in and of itself. You don't have to have any skill to do it, in fact you have to do something to avoid it. Plenty of people don't even raise their children and from the ones that do there is plenty who, while perhaps have their children living in their house, don't really raise them or care for them much other than giving them food and shelter. Then there is those who take pleasure in abusing their children.

Like everything in life it is what you choose to do with it that actually matters.

Worshipping someone for just simply for having a child is stupid.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm 30, married, have 4 kids (with one on the way), own a house, and have a good job. But I cannot grow a mustache or beard, except for a small patch under my chin; the best I can do is literally a neck beard. I'll never feel like an adult. Ever.

<comment><USER30> This is hilarious. But do you realize you're implying that women can't be adults?

The discussion sounds a lot like 'when do you become a man' than it does 'when do you become an adult.'

For instance, most women throughout history were financially dependent on their husband. They would not make independent decisions. They were not solely responsible.

Did that mean they weren't adults?

The 20-30% of women who still become stay at home moms... they can't grow a beard... they are dependent on their husband or parents for money...

<comment><USER31> Are you serious? Disregarding the fact that it was never stated what sex the poster was...

They said "I'll never feel like an adult". Emphasis on I'LL and FEEL. Not NOBODY, or EVERYONE, nor IS or BE. I'LL FEEL. Completely personal question, to a completely subjective answer -- yet you came here and contort their response in some misguided attempt to be upset with someone on the Internet so you can feel something.

Come on.

<comment><USER30> I was actually laughing out loud because I thought the image of him not feeling like an adult because of his patchy beard was very comical.

You (and other posters) are the ones being all touchy. I've got 14 downvotes for pointing out the paraplegic/housewife angle.

HN is not too friendly toward basic philosophical inquiries!

<comment><USER29> I think you were downvoted for using a straw man fallacy. I wasn't saying adulthood was defined in terms of beards. Just that I don't feel like an adult because of my lack of beard. Man, I'd even settle for a great mustache. But nope, nothing.

<comment><USER30> ... and I was making the observation that if a beard is the sign of an adult, then women can't be adults.

Are you sure you feel like an adult, or are you talking about feeling like a man?

This isn't a meaningless distinction, and it also doesn't need to be offensive. Alas, it seems if I want to have public philosophical discussions I should go back to 300 BC.

<comment><USER29> I dunno.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Adulthood, maturity, is fundamentally about responsibility. Are you a person who is always seeking the help of others or are you a person who is substantially self-reliant and who others go to for help? That's the dividing line for adulthood.

Notice that this has nothing to do with style, fashion, or entertainment choices. You can drink scotch, smoke cigars, wear suits every day, and drive a luxury automobile, that doesn't make you more mature. And you can chew bubblegum, watch cartoons, play videogames, wear jeans and hoodies, that doesn't make you less mature.

</comment><comment><USER33> The moment my dad said his only worry for me was making sure I was able to learn and handle being responsible for myself and responsibilities I'd have for my life including others.. to realize I had already been doing it for a bit.

Beyond that, I think as an adult it's a critical moment to realize it's not about what you get from the world, but what you are able to give, and your ability to think about others as much as you think for your self is critical when you have to work and function with any combination of working in the world, relationships, family and kids.

</comment><comment><USER34> As someone who considers himself very recently an adult, the quick and dirty and only-half-joking rule of thumb among my peers is whether someone is paying for their own cell phone plan.

</comment><comment><USER35> I think you're probably an adult when you transition from the role of being "protected", by some one, or some entity, to the role of "protector"...

That is, you've managed your own affairs so that you're now in a position to help others who need help managing theirs...

That's the cornerstone of a healthy and productive society--accomplished elders mentoring the young on a consistent basis...

</comment><comment><USER36> Adulthood is defined by extreme personal responsibility.

I didn't consider making a baby adulthood, or getting a $100k/year job to be adulthood. If anything, I was _less_ responsible for my own actions (ballooning to 360lbs), because I started focusing on the things I _had_ to do, and let my personal development stop due to _not having time_.

Oddly, I realized and _grasped_ the concept that I had to take responsibility for my actions at around 19. But thinking that I had to check these checkboxes off my "Steps to Adulthood" list, I put off everything else in order to achieve it. I didn't actually achieve adulthood from that path, I just had the trappings and _appearance_ of adulthood. But I was still about 13 years old inside.

I didn't consider myself an adult until the second time I made a judge run out of the courtroom (I declared a de jure court mid-sentencing after serving him notice of that right). The actual reason is less than relevant, but it was the taking control of my potential, and using it responsibly to help someone else, that brought me to adulthood.

<comment><USER37> >declared a de jure court

What does this mean? Google has no results for that phrase, using any verb tense.

<comment><USER38> Appears to be a UK "Freeman on the land" [1,2] alternative legal theory. Can't work out much else since it's pretty incoherent.

[1] [http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693](http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land)

<comment><USER36> It's extraordinarily rude to associate someone with known terrorists and extremists. especially without proof.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I'm not sure Thoreau is such a great example of an adult. As [1] argues

      The real Thoreau was, in the fullest sense of the word,
      self-obsessed: narcissistic, fanatical about
      self-control, adamant that he required nothing beyond
      himself to understand and thrive in the world.
      [..]
      "Walden" is less a cornerstone work of environmental
      literature than the original cabin porn: a fantasy about
      rustic life divorced from the reality of living in the
      woods, and, especially, a fantasy about escaping the
      entanglements and responsibilities of living among other
      people.

Much of which, as many here argue, is essential to 'being an adult'.

[1] [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/pond- scum](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/pond-scum)

</comment><comment><USER40> > "Chronological age is not a particularly good indicator [of maturity], but > it's something we need to do for practical purposes,"

This may be anecdotal, but I've found a very strong association between age and maturity in my life, especially under 25. If you were to do a blind chat with a 10, 15, 20 and 25 year old do you really believe you wouldn't be able to place them accordingly?

But maybe this is just my own biases deluding me. I'd like to think I'm a better man than I was 5 years ago, and will continue to be a better one 5 years in the future. Then again, is maturity really defined as being "a better (wo)man", because according to dictionary.com it's defined by age.

Either way I'd be curious for that professor's full quote. Maybe if we could replace "[maturity]" with what she actually said it would shed some insight on what exactly we're talking about.

</comment><comment><USER41> How about financial independence?

EDIT; key sentence below:

> Over the course of his research on this, Jensen Arnett has zeroed in on what > he calls "the Big Three" criteria for becoming an adult, the things people > rank as what they most need to be a grown-up: taking responsibility for > yourself, making independent decisions, and becoming financially > independent.

<comment><USER42> > How about financial independence?

Lot of adults are running away from their responsibilities even though they are financially independent.

Edit: sorry, had not seen the edit when replying.

<comment><USER41> And one can accurately describe that behavior as "childish."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Being an adult is when you realize that nobody else knows what the hell they're doing either.

</comment><comment><USER44> One definition I was fond of and struck by hearing was that you're not an adult when you can take care of yourself but when you can take care of others. We could qualify that all sorts of ways but its short and pithy form makes it stick in the mind well.

</comment><comment><USER45> The day I got excited about ordering a new vacuum cleaner.

I can't say I definitively crossed the threshold of adulthood that day, but the kid in me grieved. He was no longer in control... of everything ;) There was now a "grown-up" in charge.

<comment><USER46> Did you get a roomba? There are vacuum cleaners out there that warrant a little excitement. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I believe it's the moment when other people come to you for help, be it money, advice, work, etc. When you're a spigot instead of a bucket. I think that's about the simplest definition possible.

</comment><comment><USER48> "At about age 22 or 23, the brain is pretty much done developing, according to Steinberg, who studies adolescence and brain development."

"Adult plasticity still allows for modifications to the brain, but at that point, the neural structures aren't going to change."

The above changes to neuroplasticity really hit me hard when I restarted college in my 30s.

Despite "passing" for a 20some student, I realized I learned differently than my younger colleagues.

I had to rely on association with my previous knowledge quite a bit more.

Learning something completely new became near impossible hill to climb.

</comment><comment><USER49> You become an adult at the point you have a significant (meaning, major life impact) responsibility to at least one other person.

That can come from (examples):

1\. Becoming a parent (most people) 2\. Becoming an employer (who's employees depend on you and the business for their livelyhood) 3\. Other examples that you can come up with

At the point that your actions, decisions, the way you present yourself, how you spend money, etc have consequences for more than just you is the point where you really grow up.

When it's all about you, you don't really have responsibilities you just have stuff to do.

</comment><comment><USER50> Hasn't 'twenty-something', in the popular vernacular usage, already taken on the meaning of a distinct life phase (not quite adult, not still adolescent)?

</comment><comment><USER51> One possible marker of adulthood is achieving a goal after suffering a major setback. For instance, flunking out of college, then transferring elsewhere and obtaining a degree. Or along the same vein, seeing a difficult project through to the end, when everyone has bailed. Lest I sound too self- congratulatory, one could say I am too dumb to know when to quit.

</comment><comment><USER52> For me, feeling like an adult means feeling more like myself. It's like there's a core being of who I am, independent of all other factors, which becomes more prominent over time. I suppose it's tangential to the current top post - "when it comes down to it, you are the only person who is responsible for you".

</comment><comment><USER53> Notions of adulthood vary from culture to culture.

In many cultures, after an arbitrary rite of passage, children are considered "adults".

I think, personally, the point at which one becomes an adult is acknowledging the bitter and harsh truth of reality. In some sense, it may be better to remain a child forever, ignorantly blissful.

</comment><comment><USER54> I didn't start feeling like an adult until around age 21, and it took multiple failings and heavy introspection to get to that point. However, I'm glad I had the experiences I did, even though it was pretty rough at times, because they made me a better person and shaped me for the future.

</comment><comment><USER55> The problem with the Atlantic is that it takes them so long "to land the plane." Always terribly long articles. What I got from it is that 18-year olds, or not really adults, should not be going to war since their full brain development is about 5-years away.

</comment><comment><USER56> You're an adult when you no longer give a shit about doing or saying things that others may think are childish. At some point you come to realize that nobody else can dictate what should or shouldn't make you happy.

</comment><comment><USER57> I couldnt wait to get out and go to college. On my 18th birthday I left, was totally financially for myself. I lived on my own, could legally drink, vote and sign contracts. It was no big deal and I never looked back.

</comment><comment><USER58> I remember 26 yo as a turning point for me and most friends around. Not a total change in personality, but we stopped acting like crazy hooligans. OTOH, almost doubling that age, I still feel a little less naive each year.

</comment><comment><USER59> "When are you really an adult?"

When you become your own mother and father in the sense that you supply for yourself the sense of judgment, responsibility, and diligence you first got from your parents.

</comment><comment><USER60> You are an adult when every single day consists of doing things you do not want to do. You just do them. Either because you must, or because you have responsibilty or guilt.

<comment><USER61> So an adult is a slave? Yikes.

When you're a kid the appeal of growing up is getting to do whatever you want.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Two points I find have defined it for myself.

* When I lived by myself. I had to do it if it was to get done.

* When what I paid for myself was by me or depended on me and took on all responsibility for debts.

</comment><comment> lloyd-christmas When you realize that commercials are targeting you.

</comment><comment><USER63> Funny, I once heard someone say you are really an adult when you finally change your winter tires before it starts to snow.

</comment><comment><USER64> The Atlantic just wants you to feel insecure about your level of maturity so they can sell you shit.

</comment><comment><USER65> You're not an adult until you have children or aging parents to care for.

</comment><comment><USER66> Never.

<comment><USER67> I don't know why you were down-voted. Too terse maybe? It's just another label with moving goal posts. A carrot for those who seek identity. Your answer was short and sweet albeit a tad sour.

10/10: Utterly accurate. Perfect signal/noise. Would read again.

<comment><USER66> LOL. Well put. Would do the same :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> IMO the moment we become adults is when we become responsible for a life other than our own.

This may be a S.O., a child, a parent, etc.</comment>


Iminlikewithyou overview on Business 2.0 - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.business2.com/beta/2007/03/six_steps_to_da.html#more <comment><USER2> Not bad at all. It overcomes some of the inherent problems with internet dating. Basically if you can make an environment where girls won't get bombarded by tons and tons of creepy dudes, you'll get more and more hot girls from different areas, not just in California. More and more desirable, and approachable girls is a winning formula.</comment>


NYC Mayor Proposes $1000 per-update fee, city approval, for Uber and Lyft Apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-05-28/tech-champion-de-blasio-under-fire-on-plan-to-regulate-uber-apps

<comment><USER2> So this isn't about the dangers of unregulated taxi services, it's just about a little baksheesh.</comment>


23-year-old closes anti-aging venture fund - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/22/this-23-year-old-just-closed-her-second-fund-which-is-focused-on-aging-with-22-million/ <comment><USER2> I was going to make some awful joke about Peter Thiel wanting to drink her blood, but she kind of gets there first (sans Thiel references) in her final answer:

 _While scientifically interesting, I think they get a little over-discussed in the press because of that vampiricism. It's not as sexy to talk about new genetic regulatory elements that control the aging process. That's not going to get as many clicks as a story about drinking the blood of your five-year- old._</comment>