Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball - <AUTHOR> https://www.ploopy.co <comment><USER2> Some of us have been waiting for this trackball. Not just any trackball, this particular and exacting design of trackball. Twenty years ago Microsoft came out with a $35 trackball called the Microsoft Trackball Explorer. The single most awesome input device ever designed. Then for some reason they stopped selling them. The price for used ones and lost inventory has been increasing ever since. Just check out the amazon page for it. Read some of the reviews.

[https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D68-00007-Trackball- Explore...](https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D68-00007-Trackball- Explorer/dp/B00005853Z/)

Over those twenty years I've acquired three of them for parts. Two of the people I've gotten them from asked to buy them back once they spent time without them. The design is simply that amazing and to think it came from Microsoft and was originally $35, often a combo buy with their 'web' keyboard. So it will be interesting to see how much this reverse engineered version will feel like the original.

<comment><USER3> These and the Ploopy are right-hand use only, which seems unfortunate. I use trackballs with my left hand (I am right handed, but on the left is much closer to the letter keys, and my right hand joints are worse).

I currently use a Kensington Expert Mouse (well, three of them!), which despite the name is a trackball. It has a great ambidextrous design, and a scroll ring that's really easy to use (you can use thumb and finger to walk it around, or go round and round without lifting your finger). That Microsoft/Ploopy scroll wheel would destroy my thumb in no time.

I previously used several (cheaper) Logitech TrackMan Marbles, which have a smaller ball, but their main problem is the lack of scrollwheel/ring.

<comment><USER4> Cheap trick: keyboards without numeric keypad.

Also die hard Kensington Expert Mouse user, it sits immediately right of my Return key, drastically reducing motion needed to use.

// For those reading along, if you haven't used this device, it's amazing for accurate work on dual 4K screens. The trackball is the size and weight of a billiards ball, so you can "fling" the cursor with physical momentum, yet due to its diameter, position with sub pixel accuracy.

<comment><USER5> This is my current setup (Expert Mouse + numpad(-) keyboard). However, it was kind of hard to find a good keyboard without the numpad. Lucky for me, I'm one of those people who kind of likes the Mac wireless keyboards, so that's what I've got going now. (I also had a similar cheap wired chicklet keyboard, but the 'a' stopped working reliably).

What keyboard did you settle on?

<comment><USER4> Kinesis Freestyle Pro:

[https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/](https://kinesis- ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/)

Goldtouch:

[https://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic- keyboards/](https://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic-keyboards/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This leaves room for a trackball that requires the pointer finger to move the pointer. This way of pointing feels much more precise, and leaves the strong thumb to thumb the main button.

And for the question on scrolling: let me press an additional button that enables scrolling with the ball, both horizontally and vertically.

The Logitech TrackMan Marble would, in my opinion, be a wonderful example for such a trackball. (Here, the described scrolling behavior can be configured with the Logitech driver on Windows, with Karabiner on macOS, and by mapping a scroll modifier button in xorg.conf setting in X, see [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Logitech_Marble_Mouse#S...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Logitech_Marble_Mouse#Scroll_modifier) )

<comment><USER7> > And for the question on scrolling: let me press an additional button that > enables scrolling with the ball, both horizontally and vertically.

I mentioned this in another comment, but on macOS, there's a utility called SteerMouse ([http://plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html](http://plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html)) that apparently supports chording for scrolling with the ball and is compatible with a number of different trackballs.

Sadly, I've found that that particular feature isn't working properly on Catalina with my Huge, but I contacted the dev and he said he's looking into it. So fingers crossed...

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I used trackballs pretty heavily years ago, but as that was a TrackMan Marble (PS/2, three buttons, no friggin scrollwheel), I got some issues with my thumb after a few years.

I used a _huge_ old one for a while (with a serial adapter I think), which probably could've accepted a billard ball as a substitute. After a while, you got pretty intuitive and just "threw" it in the right direction, then made a minor adjustment. Loved it.

I also remember when it was all the rage with FPS players…

<comment><USER6> Actually, I am a huge fan of Logitech's TrackMan Marble Mouse and can recommend it wholeheartedly. I use it since about 20 years, renewing it every couple of years. I am sorry for your thumb, I luckily haven't had problems yet.

Before that, I have used various trackballs (Microsoft Trackball Explorer, several Kensington, Logitech Cordless Optical TrackMan) but came to stick with the TrackMan Marble. Especially, I dislike those requiring the pointer finger for clicking - I prefer the pointer finger to move the pointer. It is much more precise. Leaves the strong thumb to thumb the button.

And for the question on scrolling: I press one of the small buttons, then scroll using the ball both horizontally and vertically. This can be configured in Windows, macOS, and X.

<comment><USER8> Logitech is horrible when it comes to names, apparently every trackball they make is a "Trackman Marble". I think you're talking about the ambidextrous one with two big buttons, two small buttons and the ball in the middle.

I had the one where the trackball is operated by the thumb[1], which was quite great, at least until I "felt" it. Probably not that bad, but I was worried enough about RSI, and had to use a mouse at work anyway...

I actually bought one of the ones you mentioned recently, let's see how that works.

As for scrolling, I only rarely use a scroll wheel and do most of my paging with the keyboard, so I always missed a proper third middle button more. So the original design was quite close to my heart. (I also once had a Kensington trackball where you scrolled with a ring set around the ball. Not that great for scrolling, but I think I managed to connect it to the volume in Linux back then…)

[1]: [https://i.imgur.com/K8tDHfN.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/K8tDHfN.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Doing pretty well with Logitechs MX Ergo which also looks more polished than this open source alternative. I am fine with paying for closed source products if they are good and can be used without a hassle.

<comment><USER10> afaik they still use cheap switches for the main buttons in those, which lead to problems with the previous model of that line. (mostly the left mouse button failing after 2y). I will still use them, but I am definitely looking for a good alternative with better parts.

<comment><USER11> Mine must have or reach 2y soon. I got one just as it's been released for work. Doing a lot CAD with it. Doesn't look like it's getting worse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'll probably get crucified for this, but does someone actually want to use trackball mouse? Has anyone even seen these after 1990s?

<comment><USER13> I never had a trackball, so I'm curious about what benefits a trackball mouse has. Why or why wouldn't you use it over a regular mouse?

<comment><USER14> The main draw is that you don't have to move your entire hand / the mouse along a surface.

That means your wrist sees less strain + motion, and you have no need for a mouse-pad, to name two possible benefits. Some people find it to be more precise as well, but I don't know if there's any evidence apart from personal preference.

Of course, your wrist still moves some as you manipulate the ball with your fingers, and if you use a trackpad you already don't need a mousepad-like- surface.

<comment><USER15> > Some people find it to be more precise as well, but I don't know if there's > any evidence apart from personal preference.

On CAD applications is very annoying when the mouse unintentionally register a movement while clicking a button which never happens with a trackball.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> What's up with all the tiny metallic holes in their circuit board? It looks like they are there waiting for components to be soldered in but the finished product isn't using them. Do they serve some other purpose?

<comment><USER17> Those are called "vias", they connect traces on the top copper layer to traces on the bottom.

<comment><USER16> Thanks! It looks like a lot of them have an associated circuit track and they are placed where they are needed and not according to any kind of greater pattern, which makes sense.

However, lots of others are placed regularly around the edges of curved surfaces. Are they "via fences", to block electromagnetic interference?

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_fence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_fence)

<comment><USER17> Could be! Sorry, I'm not an expert and I have not looked at the schematics...

EDIT: On further inspection, they look like they are "stitching" two copper pours together, presumably ground or power, in order to decrease impedance maybe.

<comment><USER16> It could be this, mentioned in the schematic:

"Spark Gaps - Case: Since the case has gaps in it we expect [electrostatic discharge] to worm it's way in via creepage and perhaps other ways. To protect the board from this eventuality, we place spark gaps along the edges."

[https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/hardware/Elect...](https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/hardware/Electronics/Schematics/Base-R1_003.pdf)

So technically a via fence, but not quite as sophisticated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> i would love to see one of those in the shape of the Kensington Expert Mouse, the square mouse with the ball in the middle, with the scroll wheel as a ring around the ball.

it's the best mouse I've ever used...

</comment><comment><USER19> Microsoft should really do another batch of its Explorer trackball mouse - paying >$500 for a used one makes me cringe, once mine finally bites the dust, after almost 20 years of use.

</comment><comment><USER20> My personal favorite is an Elecom left-handed model:

ELECOM M-XT4DRBK Wireless Trackball mouse for Left-Handed, EX-G series L size 2.4GHz 6 buttons Black [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016QCPRBM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_0j...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016QCPRBM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_0jZPDbF7Y3G72)

I've got one at work, one at home: very comfortable and intuitive to use.

</comment><comment><USER21> Id probably be in if it were wireless. I miss my old trackman and the Microsoft design was almost as good (for me). I don't have room for yet another USB connected device. I already have two hubs feeding various components and using a standing desk stand thing means I move the position of the keyboard and mouse quite often. Love the design. Will keep watch. Thank for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER22> This is an interesting project - my first thought would be to flip it, as I am left handed and would benefit from it being oriented that way.

<comment><USER3> I use trackballs left handed - there are several symmetrical ambidextrous models available. I feel like I'm promoting overly much in this thread, so please just see my other comments for what I use!

<comment><USER22> I have just found the one you use - will do some research! I do a lot of Fusion 360 work and I always feel like a trackball would help.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> From the code repo ([https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/produ...](https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/production.ino)):

       // Startup delay. This sometimes prevents a USB handshake lockup.
       delay(1000);

<comment><USER24> Another gem at ([https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/SROM_...](https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/SROM_0x04_Arduino.ino))

        // This is the firmware that is uploaded to the PMW3360 each time the mouse starts up.
        // Don't mess with this. Just...just trust me. Don't do it.

<comment><USER25> The irony of that comment is that me and buddy are porting QMK to it right now and had to add to it :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> You'd have to buy up an awful lot of $25 Logitech trackmans over the years to match the hefty $200 purchase price of one of these.

<comment><USER27> Don't let the folks over on deskthority, geekhack or r/mechanicalkeyboards catch a whiff of this reasoning.

<comment><USER28> Try finding _any_ kind of mechanical keyboard, no matter how old or for what obscure platform, for $25 these days.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I love open & new hardware stuff like this. Currently using an Ergo Dox keyboard & I firmly believe it has saved me lots of wrist pain to date (plus I look hella cool typing without looking now, and my WPM has gone up rather nicely).

Excited to see who this fairs!

</comment><comment><USER30> > Everything is there for you to see. What parts did we use? How did we design > the case? What kind of swear words did we use in the firmware code? It's all > there, including build documentation.

I must have missed the swear words...

<comment><USER31> Didn't look at the code yet, but some Reddit usernames in the testimonials section are spicy!

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> No minimal kit so I can print the case myself?

<comment><USER33> As a owner of a 3D Printer i was asking myself the exact same question. Also: The printed parts on the pictures look ok, but not exactly good. I understand that you have to take print time into consideration while mass production, but this is a device that directly interacts with a users hand. Sanding is needed in this case. Or: Printing it by myself in a decend resolution. Would be nice to have this option and pay a bit less for the kit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Soooold.</comment>


Ask HN: Using non-dominant hand for mouse and dominant for note taking? - <AUTHOR> I like to have a notepad beside me while I work to keep lists and notes. However, the mouse and notepad often compete for space, even with a compact keyboard, and I end up not note taking as much as I might otherwise. I also prefer a mouse when possible over a touchpad, when something can't be done with keyboard at least. I recently noticed that a left handed coworker who used the mouse on right would keep perfect notes and todo lists with left hand without having to even put down her pencil/pen to click around.<p>Do any right-handers here use left hand for mouse in order to take notes more easily with right hand? Seems like such a simple idea but I had never considered it before. <comment><USER2> I switch mouse hands throughout the day to reduce arm stress. A little practice goes a long way, quickly.

</comment><comment><USER3> I am right handed but 20 years ago swapped mouse to left hand due to right hand temporary injury.

Took a few months of practice to feel natural and after my right hand was 100% again I decided to keep using left hand for mouse ever since.

It is handy leaving my right hand free for note taking.

</comment><comment><USER4> I changed a number of years ago, because my right wrist and elbow hurt all the time. I use a trackball with the ball on top. Key thing I had to do was switch the buttons.

At work I still keep a conventional mouse (right side, buttons normal), for when others want to show me something on my computer.

</comment><comment><USER5> Severe RSI forced me to learn mousing with my non-dominant hand. Now I am "ambimoustrous" and switch back and forth throughout the day. When I start a new job, the first thing I request is a second mouse so that I have one available at all times on both sides of the keyboard and can switch easily.

</comment><comment><USER6> Right-handed, but use trackpad with left if using pen/pencil to take notes (well, doodle). Usually use a mouse rather than trackpad when not holding a pen, but my left-handed mouse skills are terrible. I have tried, but l-h trackpad works for me.

</comment><comment><USER7> I also mostly mouse non-dominant because of RSI. Took less than a day to get to 75% capability, and about a week to 98%.

Now I'm just as good with a mouse lefty as righty except for a few things like drawing. Which may just be a matter of practice.

</comment><comment><USER8> You can get a split keyboard (eg Kinesis Freestyle 2) and put a notepad in between.</comment>


How rich hippies and developers went to war over Instagram's favourite beach - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/26/tulum-mexico-hotel-evictions-instagram-favourite-beach <comment><USER2> Yuppies ruin, then band together to 'reclaim', what was clearly not theirs in the first place. What a cesspool of greed on all sides. The false spirituality, while name dropping, really just rubs it in. How self entitled can you get?!</comment>


Software woven into wire: Core rope and the Apollo Guidance Computer - <AUTHOR> http://www.righto.com/2019/07/software-woven-into-wire-core-rope-and.html <comment><USER2> If anyone has questions about the Apollo Guidance Computer or our restoration of it, I'm here to answer.

<comment><USER3> I've enjoyed CuriousMarc's videos very much. Thanks for publishing them.

Here you guys are helping the AGC pass it's self-tests, which was an amazing step.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpIwQZaEvV0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpIwQZaEvV0)

I worked on a core memory device when I was in the Air Force, and got to troubleshoot a problem with it (which was rare - it was usually very reliable). One core had gone bad in a particularly poor location, which corrupted the "end of message" indicator. So we'd get one message and it would hang, waiting forever for the message to end!

[https://nara.getarchive.net/media/ssgt-anthony-j-mathis- and-...](https://nara.getarchive.net/media/ssgt-anthony-j-mathis-and-sgt- bryan-s-hammons-from-the-2048th-communications-947d8e)

(neither of them are me)

<comment><USER4> Brilliant. I miss the days when software was so simple!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For anyone interested in the AGC itself I can recommend the "ultimative Apollo guidance computer talk"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7Lfh5SKUQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx7Lfh5SKUQ)

</comment><comment><USER6> Great short youtube series about core rope memory [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WquhaobDqLU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WquhaobDqLU)

</comment><comment><USER7> I wonder if twistor memory would have been lighter in mass? It was developed by Bell Labs, and mostly found use in (surprise!) telephone switches. It could be made in both read-only and read/write forms, and its manufacture could be heavily automated.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistor_memory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twistor_memory)

<comment><USER2> Twistor memory looks like one of those technologies that was not quite competitive with core for one reason or another and never really caught on. As far as twistor ROM, it used a small permanent magnet per bit, so I expect that its density was worse than core rope.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> As core rope was manufactured by (black and white) women: Regarding how NACA/NASA gave work to black women in times from world war ii until the moon landing, "Hidden Figures" (the book) teached me more about american history of that time than my whole school career. Technology always also influences humans, forms society.

</comment><comment><USER9> A relevant comment from an old thread (2018): [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17689693](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17689693)

<comment><USER2> That comment is from Mike, the expert on everything AGC, who is part of the restoration team.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: what's a good Google Prediction API alternative? - <AUTHOR>

I have no previous experience with machine learning. I have a personal project where I have some historical data and would like to see if I can get any good predictions out of it.
Of course I would like to start from the beginning and learn the proper math for this field, but for now I don't have the time.
Google's Prediction API is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for to start with, however it is still in preview (and won't accept requests for accounts from outside the US).
Can you recommend a way to start off with this that does not require me to first spend a year or two studying theory? <comment><USER2> MLComp (<http://mlcomp.org>) is a site for comparing different algorithms outputs over various datasets. The site appears to be down right now, but you can go here (<http://hunch.net/?p=1309>) for an overview of the site. (If it comes back up) It might help you get a feel for some real differences in learning mechanisms.

</comment><comment><USER3> <http://directededge.com/></comment>


Ask HN: What's the best source to learn idomatic Python? - <AUTHOR> Long story short, I'm coming from 15 years of Perl but now trying to pick up Python. I want to do it the right may (best practices) rather than hack my way in, so was wanting the best (and up-to-date) guide on idiomatic Python.<p>Any suggestions? <comment><USER2> I went through "Fluent Python: Clear, Concise, and Effective Programming" and think it's probably the best Python (or any programming language?) book I've tried.

Not sure if a book is what you meant by guide.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, I've been on Amazon for the past hour, and this looks good. Thanks!

<comment><USER3> Fluent Python is the best intermediate level Python book I have read. It is one book you wish to have more and more pages.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the confirmation :) Added to my shopping list!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The Python documentation is pretty cool. I frequently go to Chapter 3 (Data Model) and always learn something new reading something I had already read but didn't quite get.

The mailing list has top notch posters who are always willing to help.

The IRC channel (#python) has very helpful members who've been patient with me on more than one occasion.

Books:

Stacking the deck:

"Python Guide" \- Kenneth Reitz: The bits one doesn't necessarily think about but that simplify life: virtual environments, unit test, project structure, good practices, scenarios for different kinds of applications, documentation, etc.

Doing stuff:

"Python Cookbook" (several editions by different authors, Alex Martelli and David Beazley): as the title states, it's a cookbook that shows you how to do a bunch of stuff in Python (files, network, threads, etc). This can get you "operational" in Python pretty fast.

Doing stuff well (meta):

" _Writing Idiomatic Python_ " \- Jeff Knupp:

The book comes for Python 2 and Python 3 and contrasts "harmful" and "good". Jeff Knupp also has videos showing you the process of refactoring code. He also has a blog ([https://jeffknupp.com/](https://jeffknupp.com/)) where he addresses many topics.

" _Effective Python: 59 Specific Ways to Write Better Python_ " \- Brett Slatkin: Pretty good book. The subtitle says it all: 59 specific ways to write better Python. (600 + pages).

" _Learn Python the Hard Way_ " \- Zed Shaw: I've read that starting out in Python. Maybe not for a 15 year Perl veteran, but this is for memo.

There's certainly some overlap in these books, but it helps to repeat a message to understand the importance of something, or to drive a point home. I didn't use virtual environments until the message was repeated enough in different ways.

Pornography:

PyCon talks. A lot of these are great.

David Beazley (a bunch of talks that are pretty cool. Still haven't finished the ones on generators but they're very good).

Brandon Rhodes (on aesthetics and design patterns (or lack thereof), and testing web applications).

Kenneth Reitz on design.

Raymond Hettinger (you'll find "Writing Beautiful Idiomatic Python" and "Beyond PEP8" most helpful).

<comment><USER5> Seconding the recommendation for the Python Cookbooks (by O'Reilly). I have both the Py 2 and Py 3 versions. I've read the 2 book (multiple authors) pretty much fully (and much of it more than once), except for a few more advanced recipes, or areas that I was not that interested in, and found it really good. Used some of the ideas and techniques in some production code. The chapter in it on iterators and generators is particularly good (some of the stuff in it is by Raymond Hettinger, who also, IIRC, designed and implemented much of the iterator and generator functionality in Python 2). I've only read parts of my copy of 3 so far, but it is good too, though the style is somewhat different. It is more brief (per recipe, though the book overall is as large or larger than 2), and you have to do more work yourself to understand the recipes. The authors explicitly say this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Check out Raymond Hettinger's talks on YouTube. Here's one to get you started: [https://youtu.be/OSGv2VnC0go](https://youtu.be/OSGv2VnC0go)

<comment><USER5> Another good Python video is Ned Batchelder's "Loop like a Native". Has _lots_ of examples of non-idiomatic vs. idiomatic ways of looping in Python. Google a bit before reading, there may be more than one video, or a blog post and a video. Check for the latest one etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It is probably somewhat out of date now (w.r.t. to new language and library features of Python), but David Goodger's site also has a list of idiomatic Python topics; had read it a while ago. This is it:

[http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/han...](http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, that was one of the first things I found. Will be going through this ASAP

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> [https://jeffknupp.com/writing-idiomatic-python- ebook/](https://jeffknupp.com/writing-idiomatic-python-ebook/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Purchased. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Look up interview questions on the web, I find them very useful to get an idea of what makes good python programming. I have none to recommend in particular.

<comment><AUTHOR> Didn't think of that. Out of the box... nice

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> [https://www.learnpythonthehardway.org/](https://www.learnpythonthehardway.org/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ooh. I don't know if I have the time</comment></comment>


Some Favorite Non-Technical Books (2018) - <AUTHOR> http://www.stroustrup.com/literature.html <comment><USER2> One of my favorite classes with Bjarne from college was Bjarne telling us the story of a ten year-old who wrote him asking if it was too late to start programming and what he should learn so he can work as a programmer (to get started so he could be one of the best in the world at something in the field).

Bjarne says he responded by telling the kid to stop worrying about work or what he wanted to work as, and to spend time playing (both on the computer and just outside) because it was just as good as good for the mind as sitting in front of the computer and that ten year-olds could often be the best in the world at playing.

Similar to his penchant for fiction here, this is something I've always loved about Bjarne... despite being so good at one thing: finding the beauty in balance.

<comment><USER3> I'd bet that the nervous 10-year-old promptly ignored Bjarne's advice and went on to ask others what to cram.

<comment><USER4> And maybe 10-years old would be right. Not because of becoming best in the world, but because there would be zero harm to his development, really.

<comment><USER5> Unless he burns out.

Usually 10 years old (speaking from experience) don't worry about job or employment prospect, they just want to do the cool thing. And if it's the former that's pushing I suspect a strong possibility of burning out.

Heck, even as an adult I can barely tolerate working on things I'm not interested in but pressured so.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> «I (Bjarne Stroustrup) have also been asked where I find the time to read non- technical books. Actually, it is not a question of finding the time. Reading non-technical stuff is essential. Without it, I'd go nuts and lose my sense of proportion. As a practical matter, I read for about an hour almost every evening before going to bed -- trying to go straight from technical work to sleep is usually not a good idea.»

<comment><USER6> > trying to go straight from technical work to sleep is usually not a good > idea

I did this with an assignment last night and ended up dreaming about linear algebra. I did not sleep well!

<comment><USER7> There is a Fields medal winner, who does math in his sleep. John von Neumann loved to work in noisy environments, did not like quiet places.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's rather common to dream about math or computing when you are solving some hard problem or digesting some topics with a time limit (next exam, project deadline, etc.)

As for Fields medalists, they are extremely creative folks who can find new and effective ways to tackle seriously deep problems, even when doing things unrelated to math (swimming, hiking, etc.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Can I just list my favorite non-technical books here?

Richard Feynman, What Do You Care What Other People Think? - Probably no additional description needed. It's a kind of sequel of Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! but has a more personal touch.

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry - Night Flight. A somewhat romanticized tale about the early era of air mail delivery. The story about the personal sacrifice for public good.

Tove Jansson - Moominvalley in November. It's disguised as a kid's story, but from what I read the book is about loss and absence of loved ones. Funny, soothing and surprisingly profound.

</comment><comment><USER9> Hands down, the most useful non-technical book I've read is The True Believer by Eric Hoffer. Written in 1951, but utterly timeless, it unlocks a new way to view your fellow man by revealing the impulses that lead someone toward fanatical mass movements. In a funny way, it frees you from participating in the pointless debates about ideologies and allows you to be more empathetic to those who have fallen into the trap of mass movements. Beautifully written, too, without even a hint of academic pretensions.

<comment><USER10> Thanks for the recommendation. I liked the author's biography:

> Eric Hoffer (1902 -- 1983) was self-educated. He worked in restaurants, as a > migrant fieldworker, and as a gold prospector. After Pearl Harbor, he worked > as a longshoreman in San Francisco for twenty-five years. The author of more > than ten books, including The Passionate State of Mind, The Ordeal of > Change, and The Temper of Our Time, Eric Hoffer was awarded the Presidential > Medal of Freedom in 1983.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> For me, my favourite non-technical book I can remember reading is:

      The Tao of Physics[0]

In retrospect, this may explain my comfort with C++ over the years. ;-)

0 - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics)

</comment><comment><USER12> wow, what a walk down memory lane.

this is a very, very good list. read most of these books in high school. Destoievski is still one of my favourite authors, and i still have dreams of Eco's 1300s abbey.

i would also mention Kafka, and any of the SciFi greats (Asimov, Clarke, P.K. Dick etc). Re-read a lot of these this past year.

and i would also mention Marcus Aurelius "Meditations", a book written 2000 years ago by one of the greatest thinkers of his time.

there are so many good book written throughout history it's absolutely crazy. the only problem i see is the monumental amount of crappy books that have been launching recently and becoming instant hits. combined with a "does this take longer than a 10 minute youtube video" attitude.

otherwise, if you have a modicum amount of patience, any of those books will prove to be an unforgettable experience.

<comment><USER13> Wrt. the sci-fi greats, I once worked my way through the list of joint winners of nebula and hugo awards, and it was awesome. Those books are all excellent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> >This "use" of literature and history is reflected in my choice of reading: There is very little "heavy" reading listed here.

And then he lists Dostoevsky and Homer. Those doesn't count as heavy reading? What counts as heavy reading? Ulysses/Paradise lost?

My "oh hell yeah!" moment was when i saw Lord of the Rings in the list :p

<comment><USER4> > And then he lists Dostoevsky and Homer. Those doesn't count as heavy > reading? What counts as heavy reading? Ulysses/Paradise lost?

Dostoevsky is not difficult to read. If you like depressive psychological drama, it is quite enjoyable. Homer difficulty depends heavily on translation. It can be stiff and boring or basically just fun (but again, you gotta like the relationships non-actiony aspect of it).

Yeah, Ulysses is definitely hard to read.

<comment><USER15> If Dostoevsky is not difficult to read, then there exist only a handful of authors who are. Maybe it isn't difficult to find enjoyment in his works, but there is a hell of a lot more going on than just depressive psychological drama.

<comment><USER4> I really dont think it is so difficult to read. I was no regular reader of classic and was definitely not seeking anything difficult when I found it first time and I enjoyed it.

I used to abandon books quickly when they were hard to read or boring or anything like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Who else is adding this to an already huge list of "To Read" items in their "To Do" list?

<comment><USER17> Damn. Me too. Although, I am cherrypicking, instead of adding it all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I have a long list of non-technical (and non-fiction) books, available here: [https://public.3.basecamp.com/p/8ogy66cGzqVxape4Th648eLV](https://public.3.basecamp.com/p/8ogy66cGzqVxape4Th648eLV)

If you're interested in reading and talking about these types of books with people who have a similar bookish intuitions, shameless plug: [https://strangers-club.com](https://strangers-club.com)

</comment><comment><USER19> there is only one kierkegaard book there, i was hoping for more :) (given a bunch of epigraphs (from kierkegaard) in various books that he has authored)

</comment><comment><USER20> He has some excellent books in there with classics and cult favorites but I have to specifically give the highest recommendation to John Steinbeck's dilogy of Cannery Row/Sweet Thursday.

It's a very humanistic book that covers stories of poor characters in a humorous way without mocking them or acting as if they're beneath others somehow. The atmosphere of the books is inviting and warm and they're both good stories to read in the cold of the upcoming winter. They're often overlooked in favor of Steinbeck's popular titles like Grapes of Wrath and East of Eden but I'd say these two are essentials as well.

</comment><comment><USER21> I read "Seven Gothic Tales" by Isak Dinesen (Karen Blixen's pen name) after seeing it quoted in Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language". Lovely dreamlike prose. Stroustrup's book is one of my all-time favourite technical works, I hope we get a new edition for the latest versions of the language.

</comment><comment><USER22> No Nordic Noir? e.g. Henning Mankell.

Lots of history, but only Barbara Tuchman on WW 1. I recommend G. J. Meyer "A World Undone: The Story of the Great War, 1914-1918" and "The World Remade: America in World War I".

</comment><comment><USER23> These are just his favorites not everything he's read, and kudos to him for putting this out there. But I'm a little disappointed as the list is kind of heavily Euro-centric. Probably even just a couple decades ago this would be the norm but I think in 2019 a person of his calibre and intelligence could benefit a lot by broadening his reading tastes, and there are increasingly many excellent (non-european) authors to choose from to broaden one's perspectives. Not a criticism, just my observation.

</comment><comment><USER24> I love the good ol' fashioned web page look.

<comment><USER25> We lost something. At the beginning of internet, I remember, there were this kind of lists, with many links to interesting webpages, or quirky stuff. Surely you know what I mean, it was usual to see along smart blogs, this kind of list of gorgeous references, and it was amazing.

Maybe I'm missing something, but nowadays the internet seems "diluted", there is more noise than information, and it's full of common sense, low-value content (like Wikihow, I'm sorry to say). Google Search is a bit responsible, they rank at the top superficial stuff, and we lost trace of this kind of juicy content.

If someone has more links like this one, I'd be happy to read about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> are dirk gently books even better than the show?

<comment><USER27> Most definitely

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I Would take Thucydides over Herodotus any day

<comment><USER29> I would rather take Plutarch than either of them, the very tricks and manipulations described in his Lives are still what politicians still use day to day to get what they want done.</comment></comment>


Clearing the Body's Retired Cells Slows Aging, Extends Life - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/02/clearing-retired-cells-extends-life/459723/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> This makes tremendous sense on all kinds of levels. As long as you have a stem cell population, eliminating senescent cells will trigger their replacement.

When you think about it, reproduction and the birth of a new human being is an extreme example of this. Start with one pristine fertilized egg cell and build a whole new body.

This does lead to a related question though: what the heck goes on in germ- line cells that keeps them 'immortal' like this? Of course whatever it is maybe it's something that is mutually exclusive with what has to happen in body cells after they differentiate. Maybe germ line cells just keep most of their DNA "offline" and more or less keep themselves pristine by not doing anything.

<comment> norea-armozel I think the question remains what happens when a certain mutation takes hold in the stem cell line? I'm guessing we'd need to a genetic map between your family members then (parents, siblings, etc)? Obviously radical life extension isn't a one solution problem, but I have to wonder how much will need to be done before we get something close to Aubrey de Grey's SENS program.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm not clear what the therapy is. How are they removing the cells?

<comment><USER3> Although not a complete answer there was this sentence

"We have molecules that are 300 times more poisonous to these cells than to non-senescent ones."</comment></comment>


What is the tech stack behind dapulse.com - <AUTHOR> dapulse is quite fast for an excel sheet like board. What backend technology do they use? <comment><USER2> [https://builtwith.com/dapulse.com](https://builtwith.com/dapulse.com)</comment>


Keep Unions Out of Grad School - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-12/university-of-chicago-walkout-keep-unions-out-of-grad-school <comment><USER3> From the POV of a former researcher who abandoned his PhD due to being fed up with the constant abuse and lack of perspectives, this article is infuriating. It sounds like a praise of indentured servitude. The argument is exactly the same: they don't need rights because they are receiving training.

</comment><comment><USER4> We all know how that works - unions increase wages and benefits, if the school has a hard cap on the dollars it has to engage fewer grads. In addition, we have all seen the aged grad student - 6 years on his PhD, with a union, he does not care - he has seniority. I could go on. In essence a grad school is a golden opportunity to advance your self in leading institutions - why hurt it?

<comment><USER5> I disagree. The other thing unions create are standard working conditions. Some supervisors/departments are terrible - even within the same dept/uni.

Grad school isn't about the money but it is all about the supervisor/student relationship. The power imbalance is extreme and sits with the supervisor - <USER2> 6 year PhD is not something most people want, they want to graduate and earn some $$, but another year can generate a couple extra papers for the supervisor...

<comment><USER6> I think that somehow correcting the power imbalance is the key to improving the lives of grad students. In most normal jobs, if your boss is a jerk, you typically have the ability to leave and go somewhere else, and quite possibly end up better compensated as a result. It is exceedingly difficult to switch phd advisors, especially without sustaining a significant setback in your graduate career. I believe this one of the leading factors in exploitive advisor-grad relationships.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> lol, no</comment>


Neuroprosthetic interface that acts as a wireless bridge - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sjeytKmlCk <comment><AUTHOR> To illustrate one of the paths for the new Musk company to achieve profitability in the near future.</comment>


Ask HN: Do you work in a traditional hacker field? - <AUTHOR>

I work in Fashion, and think there might be an advantage to being a data driven worker in a style driven culture. Does anyone else bring hacker ideas to industries that usually don't use them? <comment><USER2> I wipe ass and save lives as an ER nurse working the night shift. I'm constantly dumbfounded at the tremendous systemic problems in health care, and I want out. Which is why i started <http://Newsley.com></comment>


Ask HN: Pricing from Day 1 for a SAAS product - <AUTHOR> Hi, does anyone have experience of offering a saas product with subscription fee from Day 1? Basically no free version, only paid version from day 1. How was the experience? How did it work out? <comment><USER2> Much harder to do unless you have an established reputation and a great deal of marketing momentum behind it.</comment>


Ask HN: Any non-Comcast users experiencing internet issues? - <AUTHOR> Seem to be having issues connecting to certain sites on both Comcast and tethering on T-mo. Some sites like Youtube are fine though. Anyone else having issues on non-Comcast ISPs? <comment><USER2> Just started seeing issues as well on Comcast: [http://downdetector.com/status/comcast- xfinity](http://downdetector.com/status/comcast-xfinity) seems like there's potentially large issues rn

</comment><comment><USER3> @ComcastCares "Some customers are having issues with their XFINITY Internet service. We apologize & appreciate your patience while we work to fix." [https://twitter.com/comcastcares/status/927605656248451072](https://twitter.com/comcastcares/status/927605656248451072)

</comment><comment><USER4> Many of our customers are experiencing issues reaching our load balancers in Northern Virginia. Not sure what's up.

</comment><comment><USER5> Here in south florida I'm having connectivity issues to some websites like, facebook, twitter, hackernews, etc.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes - we have customers all over NA and have received a couple of reports so far</comment>


Did Humans Create the Sahara Desert? - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170314111320.htm <comment><USER2> Some think that the Amazon could flip to desert, with enough deforestation.

<comment><USER3> Amazon is on the equator, whereas Sahara is on tropic (north limit). Different kind of climate happens on those two latitudes.

<comment><USER2> Well, much of the Amazon is south of the equator. And reduced temperature difference between equator and poles will arguably weaken circulation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> If it was destroyed by humans, maybe it can be restored by humans.

If a change in planetary albedo can disrupt weather patterns, then gross control should likely afford for a reversal. If you could change the reflective surface of country-sized zones, would the opposite be possible?

What if the general reflective surface of uninhabited areas were darkened across the spectrum, but especially in the radiative thermal and infrared region? Would monsoons return?

10,000 years is pre-historic. I wonder how many seasons were required to transform the region, given that the desert continues to expand even today.

If monsoons were returned, figure 2 generations of monsoons (40 years) might show significant reversal?

<comment><USER3> _" What if the general reflective surface of uninhabited areas were darkened across the spectrum, but especially in the radiative thermal and infrared region? Would monsoons return?"_

When you "darken" something it means that the amount of energy in that portion of the spectrum is absorbed, naturally as heat. Hot bodies emit in infrared wavelength, i.e. will "leak" that heat. So, it's not enough to darken an area, you also have to make sure the energy gets used/consumed somehow, at least partially. Vegetation does that naturally.

<comment><USER4> So, if the albedo consumes infrared thermal energy with solar collectors, and converts to electricity, stored in batteries which then perform work, the concept holds water.</comment></comment></comment>


My Startup project: Qhoga.com - <AUTHOR> http://www.qhoga.com/

<comment><USER2> "Type name, brand, and type of anything for your home or garden." is not easy to read.

My first impression is to try something like "Ikea dressers" just give me an example how I can search, like "Dresser" or "ikea" or w/e.

<comment><USER3> Yeah that phrase definitely needs to be revised. Site seems to be working well though, and fast!

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I 100% agree with the fact that you need to come up with a new name.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Really nice. It was very fast and the couple searches I did gave great results. I'll spread the word. The name is a little hard to remember though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback. I agree about the name being weird; I lost a coin flip contest to my partner on name choice so I assumed it and getting use to it.

<comment><USER5> Don't settle on that name because of a coin flip. :P

I've looked at that name for a minute now and not only do I not know how to pronounce it, I don't know how I'd tell someone about it without having to spell it out, which makes it very easy to forget.

Something like decorefind.com is available. That's easy to remember.

<comment><USER6> I don't know, the name is already notorious...

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=263022>

<comment><USER5> Yeah... if you're already being referenced as having a worse brand name than cuil/knol, a name change is necessary.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, we'll definitely work on this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is this a startup in the pure sense of creating technology from the ground up. It looks like you're using <http://www.intelliverb.com/PESS/> \- not that it matters, it's just a question of semantics. Yahoo Boss could be worth exploring too. <http://developer.yahoo.com/search/boss/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Great question! We founded Intelliverb a search engine base on the PageScale algorithm. We are now using the power of PageScale to power qhoga.com and qwili.com.

<comment><USER8> ooh, i get it! as soon as you said "qwili", the names started to make sense. "Query for HOme & GArden", qwili = "Query for WIne & LIquor"... now that i check, the About section actually explains this. but it's buried. if you want a weird name like that to stick, at least use that mnemonic as the tagline! make it more visible!

<comment><USER9> Only a coder could love such a naming convention.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My first search, for "lawn gnomes", returned no results. Come on! Home and garden? You GOT to have lawn gnomes :)

Seriously, nice start here. Good use of affiliate marketing, as others have noted. You may want to make the search more flexible and forgiving if PESS provides a way - e.g. I typed in 'coffe machine' and got no results, then 'coffee machine' and got many.

</comment><comment><USER11> Design needs work on 2 levels:

User-friendliness

* when using the categories on the left to narrow a search, clicking a category always adds it to the end of the search, even when it's already included, even when it doesn't have any effect.

* likewise, while you can "drill down" by selecting additional narrower categories, you can't back out by selecting a parent category or de-selecting a category.

* the numbers here are off a bit. "Floor Care" gives 97 results, but the category on the left claims 71

These little details can lead to frustration for the user.

Visual Design / Branding

* Particularly considering your target market here, you guys desperately need a visual designer to create an attractive look for your site, and to give your site a feeling. Look for example at <http://www.projectwedding.com/>. They do a great job of design, where every element of the page is intended to evoke an emotion or association in the mind of the viewer, from their logo to the color scheme, to the (I assume) hand-picked lead imagery for the front page. Of course yours will be different, because your target market is different, but you can get a general idea from them.

* For example, you should not just have text examples, but show the thing that your buyer wants, so they can more easily make the association, and even make the leap to thinking what their home would look like if only they had those drapes &c.

* You also need a name and logo which can mean something to the user. Even non-sense brand names are chosen specifically to evoke an idea or emotion, to make some association. You should pick a name which really communicates what your site is, though not necessarily in direct terms.

I agree with others though, that the site looks promising. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER12> I like it a lot, however some of the results seem to be 'old' links that don't exist anymore. e.g., I searched for a black leather sofa, and got amazing results that however didn't exist anymore on the target site. Maybe consider updating your index more often (not sure how difficult of a problem that is for you), but still - great site!

</comment><comment><USER13> Suggestions for improvement:

Spell-check search queries, à la google. E.g. searching on [vacum cleener] should ask if you meant/search on [vacuum cleaner].

Search also for synonyms. E.g. [secateurs] gave me no results, but [pruner] did. It would be good if the latter search was automatically done given the former query.

<comment><USER14> Have someone proofread. For searches on misspelled words "Type Less Words" s/Less/Fewer/, though your search doesn't match fewer results when more search words are added. "Type Words Correct Spelling", perhaps just "Correct Spelling". But, if a word does not match anything, run it through aspell with an aspell dictionary created from your product lists.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Looks good. Design point: I'd try to stick with a grid. The "beta" text seems to have a random position off to the right, and while the table of example searches are functional, they could use some consistent cell padding.

On the search page itself it'd be great if you tried to align the left margin better. Right now the top bar hangs out, which makes the page flow poorly for the eye.

In general, reduce number of vertical columns of alignment. A grid helps that. That's my advice.

Read this blog post / attached PDF -- it's fantastic: <http://www.subtraction.com/archives/2007/0318_oh_yeeaahh.php>

</comment><comment><USER16> Looks good, its clean, its fast, and it returned good results. I'd agree the name isn't great and the initial text in the search text box should be reworded. Is this an example of what can be done with Intelliverb's hosted search service?

<comment><AUTHOR> Great feedback, thanks. Yes it is an example of what can be done with intelliverb search service. Also check out qwili.com.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Good idea. Did you research your target audience? Because if your target audience is females, you should put more effort into your design approach.

You should read [http://www.scribd.com/doc/2629403/Marketing-to-Women-The- Wor...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/2629403/Marketing-to-Women-The-Worlds- Largest-Marketing-Segment?ga_related_doc=1)

A summary: as guys (and especially as hacker-types), we don't know anything about what girls like or care about.

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER18> This seems like a very good idea. If you stick with a vertical search for long enough, it will make you money. Keep improving it and don't give up!

</comment><comment><USER19> Oh man, my girlfriend is going to love this!

I'm going to love it too, because it means less having to help her find this kind of stuff.

That was my first impression anyway. I tried searching for "bedrame" and got 6 results. Then I tried "cb2 bedframe" and got the same number of results, so it actually doesn't seem all that helpful to me, unforunately :(

</comment><comment><USER20> Thank you for explaining what your name means on the About page. That, if anything has impressed me the most so far.

</comment><comment><USER21> Nice and clean, but the omnipresent dollar signs might put off a lot of people. I'd suggest deemphasizing those a bit and adding some content to interest people who are still thinking about what to spend their money on. Tease them in the door, and don't greet them with a cash register as soon as they come in.

</comment><comment><USER22> Reminds me of Octopart except it's for Home and Garden utilities. Hmmm I wondering what a nice a idea :-)

</comment><comment><USER23> Pump up your positioning. I could barely figure out what I was looking at for a few seconds and almost hit the rewind button before I caught it in the middle.

</comment><comment><USER24> Looks exactly like qwili. Are you guys going to create a new search engine for each vertical and name them all something like qosyf? ;-)

</comment><comment><USER25> It does "home" all right, but not "garden." I typed in some searches for flowers and just got home accessories.

</comment><comment><USER26> More of a 'product search' then anything. Creative use of affilate marketing :)

</comment><comment><USER27> queue-hogger? Is the name one of those random-yet-still-pronounceable-names- with-an-available-.com-address?

</comment><comment><USER28> Looks like you're using .NET. Heresy!

<comment><AUTHOR> You know .NET is not that bad, plus a great percentage of popular domains are done in .NET. Let's not let our hatred for Microsoft shadows our vision of technology.</comment></comment>


Computers Will Entertain Us to Death - <AUTHOR> http://restrictionisexpression.com/post/13921641575/computers-will-entertain-us-to-death <comment><USER2> I was obsessed by games when I was kid. They've almost lost their grip on me. Even when I go actively looking for some distraction I can't find anything good. There has been one exception in the last couple of years, minecraft.

There's virtually no innovation, but I'm not sure that's the reason, I think you just move on. I remember a crossover point where I looked at realistic graphics and thought "I could just go outside and go for a run" and then did.

<comment><USER3> If you're looking, dwarf fortress is pretty neat. It's all ascii art, but the underlying mechanics are fantastically complicated.

<comment><USER4> You, sir, are a cruel cruel drug pusher. I cannot let this naked praise for DF go without a warning: you will straight up lose days to this game if you try to figure it out. I lost, literally lost, 96 hours to DF before I wised up and purged it from my hard drive. Even so, its delicious caverns of dirt-to-be- excavated and dwarfs to be managed still tempts me, beckons me back. So far, I've held fast.

tl;dr: df is cocaine

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's an assumption behind these worried articles that there's a natural, non-virtual mode of existence for human beings when we're not reading books, watching movies or playing games. Perhaps we are living in the outdoors, breathing fresh air and weaving accessories from wild grasses.

However, this can't be true. As David Deutsch has argued, humans are knowledge creators: we thrive only by thinking about our environment and our problems and trying to improve stuff. It has been thus since we split from the rest of the primates.

We cannot perceive reality directly. Thinking itself is a form of virtual reality rendering. In order to improve stuff, we have to imagine how it could be different. So we all exist in virtual realities, whether we want to or not.

Obviously this doesn't address all the concerns in the article, but it might be a better starting point. One could go on to consider the educational value of games, perhaps by asking whether all learning can be regarded as forms of gaming. And then: which games are better than others and why?

</comment><comment><USER6> Isn't most of what humans do wasteful? What about "lieing on a beach sipping cocktails to death" or "commuting to death" or "painting to death" or "watching TV to death" or "reading to death"? If you condemn computer games, you condemn all other forms of art at the same time. So I suppose the only worthwhile conducts of human life are technological and scientific research, and building infrastructure? I don't think it is as simple as that. And if you have created the perfect infrastructure and won against cancer, then what? Why live? What did you optimize for? That we can enjoy stuff seems to make us want to live at the same time.

<comment><USER7> > If you condemn computer games, you condemn all other forms of art at the > same time.

Creating computer games can be an art. Playing computer games seldom is. There aren't that many games that you can play creatively, and really few where your creations can have any value outside of the universe of the game.

<comment><USER6> So art should never be consumed, only be created? If somebody listens to a song, he is wasting his time, but then what is the point of creating a song?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've lost friends to WoW. To my perspective, they could literally be dead and I would have the same experience - I know they are online but they are completely inaccessible inside their game world.

That Bruce Willis movie with the immersive VR was a catchy prediction for the new opiate. Large portions of society are waiting for the chance to lose themselves in a deterministic, programmed world that is more pleasurable than their reality. It's terrifying to consider the ramifications of this. If you can plug in, feed yourself some poptarts and hydrate every 8 hours, and otherwise float in limbo being someone you love more than your real self, we're going to see entire classes of people disappear, just like my WoW friends that I'll probably never chat with again.

<comment><USER9> <http://localroger.com/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html>

      Caroline continued. "So they learn where the pleasure points are by hook or
      crook, then stimulate themselves directly. And when they get it right, they
      never do anything else. They get everything maximized, tuned up, and they just
      sit there forever enjoying it."

      "Right. Now is a creature that is doing that, not interacting with the world
      at all any more, human?"

      Caroline thought about it. "No."

      "Prime Intellect thinks otherwise. But it has its doubts."

<comment><USER10> Without God/Prime Intellect to keep these people blissfully alive, though, natural selection will quickly check this kind of progression.

Once you short circuit your pleasure systems - which evolved to keep you alive and reproducing - you'll soon be displaced by a species with better self control.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've been playing Skyrim lately and I can only describe it as endlessly entertaining. I had the very same thought that the article talks about.

Skyrim is almost completely realistic-looking. At some point in the near future, the games we play will likely be indistinguishable from reality, or even more likely, much better than reality in every way.

But the more surprising thing is that Skyrim has a system that randomly generates more stuff to do than you could reasonably do in a lifetime of playing the game. Now, it's essentially the same thing over and over, but there's no reason to assume that games in the future won't become even better at this. The key point is that there is stuff to do in the game that someone didn't have to manually create.

The logical conclusion is that at some point in the future, there will exist an endless supply of stuff to do that is more entertaining than reality, not just in the current "addictive until you eventually get bored a year later" way, but in the "automatically generated by algorithms so complex that the game is constantly new and surprising and you will never get bored" way.

I wonder where that will lead. Maybe it's the ultimate bread and circus for the populous, where one could lead an extremely happy and fulfilling life in a virtual world with essentially no cost to anyone.

And if you take a step back, that's exactly where we are today, at least in the developed world. For the most part, if you abandon all the trappings of the modern, virtual world, you can live a happy and fulfilling life for nearly zero cost. But we choose to buy cell phones, TV's, and other forms of entertainment that aren't really necessary.

Beyond the necessities, it's all entertainment, including that 40 hour job that you don't really have to do to live or that startup you founded because you believe it will make your life better.

</comment><comment><USER12> This kind of article bugs me. It's evolution in action. Think of it as speciation: H. sapiens for those that stay, H. cyberneticus for those that go down the rabbit hole. Either way, if you don't want to play - don't play! More world for you! Where's the problem here?

Of course, I'm also looking forward to my property values going up when all you coastal people find your houses a mile offshore, so maybe I'm just excessively phlegmatic to start with.

<comment><USER13> The problem is we aren't evolved to handle such stimulation right now. That'll lead to unintended consequences. Just like eating fast foods leads to obesity, and modern loneliness leads to mental diseases. Many a million years from now.. but not now.

<comment><USER14> Speak for yourself.

Most people aren't evolved to resist serious strains of flu, but when an epidemic happens the next generation will be those who _were_. There are probably people who are perfectly capable of adapting to virtual reality worlds right now, just as there are those who can avoid getting obese despite the presence of vastly calorific foods and can avoid mental diseases despite the highly unusual (from a historical perspective) nature of modern society.

<comment><USER15> > Most people aren't evolved to resist serious strains of flu, but when an > epidemic happens the next generation will be those who were.

It's true because diseases _kill_ unprepared and leave only the (more-less) adapted. So far neither obesity nor computer games were successful in killing people on the mass scale fast enough. Also, we're actively engineering the computer games to be as immersing as possible. If a 'resistant generation' pops up, it'll probably at some point engineer addicting games for itself.

<comment><USER16> Evolutionary speaking sterilization is as effective as death. And several diseases do reduce fertility which creates evolutionary pressure on par with deaths.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I'm trying to stay unaddicted and I have friends who are far better at me at it. I don't game, but like most people, I'm a FB, Quora, Reddit, HN checker and I've started to realize that I'm hitting a point of diminishing returns with all these articles, photos, memes. I still come back and love the thoughts this article and discussion have provoked, but these are few and far between.

It's a hard balance. It's fun to go Reddit/funny just to have a few laughs and it's fun to post links and songs to entertain friends in other states/countries, but at what point is this really good for me or satisfying? Wouldn't it be better to take all my mindshare and energy and go learn the skills that will get me a more satisfying job? Or do the things that would get me more time with women (affection/sex)? More time in nature? More friendships? Strengthen my body...etc. etc.

I'm still in love with physical reality. I'm always in awe of the world when I look at Boston.com's big picture or watch nature videos on Vimeo.

I don't really have a point, just that it saddens me quite a bit to think how much people are missing out the world. And this is in an old argument, but it's no wonder people don't care about the destruction of the species/habitat when they're so amused in some virtual world. It's hard not to cross my fingers for some massive power outage/food shortage temporary wake up call.

</comment><comment><USER18> I've been thinking about this myself. I concluded that if a Matrix-like option was offered (not forced), where your body would be used as a power source but your mind would be in some distant, impossible fantasy world which you are able to make up yourself, many people would take that option instead of continuing to live their normal life.

I know that if I were offered something like that, a world where I could live out fantasies with no conditions, other than that I give up my body, I may very well take it.

The end of humanity as we know it, perhaps, indeed.

</comment><comment><USER19> While I agree with most of the points the author makes, I can't see why he would concentrate on video games. It's not much harder to be addicted to the internet, or to anime or visual novels (see the Japanese hikkikomori), or to anything else that we can play/watch/do alone in the comfort of our own rooms. And these other addictions have much the same effect as those the author describes. In fact, I'd wager that most people who have played a game like Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft for a long time don't continue to do so because of the game itself, which has lost its immersive quality for a long time, but rather because of the friends they made, and the alternate society they are a part of. The greatest danger of MMORPGs is in my opinion that they are social games.

</comment><comment><USER20> This reminds me a lot of this article: The Acceleration of Addictiveness (<http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html>).

Same theme. It goes a little more into talking about societal implication; e.g. there'll be a divide in society as a result between the norm - "addiction" in some regards - and those who can/choose to stay unaddicted.

<comment><USER21> Clay Shirky also describes 'society's collective bender' in more optimistic terms: <http://google.com/search?q=cognitive+surplus>

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> You might want to consider changing the lime green color background to something more neutral.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right now, I coded my blog to a different 'fun' color that varies w/ the day of the post. Cooking up a new theme w/ readability improvements, I'll reconsider that color (though do check out <http://restrictionisexpression.com> for full effect)

<comment><USER23> As long as we're nitpicking, you are using "it's" incorrectly. "It's" is not the possessive form of "it", it is a contraction of "it is". The word you are looking for is "its". Usually doesn't annoy too much but you do this twice in the first paragraph.

<comment><AUTHOR> Fixed; forgot to proof read that paragraph, thanks Tycho. Always up for improvements no matter how small.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > If I could take a pill to skip meals or sleep in a healthy way, I would.

Multivitamins and melatonin?

The only real question I have is: will this super-entertainment world be better than this one outside of the entertainment-sphere? I don't really care if people waste their lives in WoW or equivalent, so long as I'm not forced to join them or support them living in that world. (I'd like to see the day when basic needs like food/shelter/water are next to free in costs so people _could_ waste their lives without burdening anyone else, if they wanted to.)

Even if I could be convinced that joining them would make me feel so good about the decision afterwards, I'd resist in the same manner I resist buying/making meth today. I'm still fascinated by reality, and I want to continue to be the sort of person fascinated by reality, so I'll refuse your drug that would make me say the same things about your virtual reality.

Others here have noted that the prediction pattern-matches against lots of older ones, it certainly goes back throughout the ages. It would be amusing if Star Trek got it right in the end: a holodeck used as occasional recreation (and for other things) in the same way our t.v.s and games are used as occasional recreation, rather than something real that many people spend their lives in.

<comment><USER25> Melatonin doesn't replace sleep, it makes you sleepy.

<comment><USER24> Ah, I read the original wish as "sleep in a healthy way", instead of "skip meals or sleep". I probably need some sleep myself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I assume the title is an oblique reference to Neil Postman's seminal book _Amusing Ourselves To Death_ , in which the author argued that TV had created a Huxleyan culture in which it became impossible to carry on the kind of informed, rational public discourse that a functioning democracy requires.

<comment><AUTHOR> How uncultured am I? :) Haven't read/heard of that, but will seek out, thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> It's interesting to go back and read previous generations attempts to look 40 years into the future and guess what the biggest problems will be. Generally you end up with "amusing" rather than "prescient", such that the exceptions are noteworthy.

While I fully anticipate that this sort of world will cause some sort of problems, I doubt we can really call them this far in advance.

I'd also observe that if one lives more or less their entire reality in some sort of VR simulation... _so what_? I can make arguments in both directions (at length, actually but I'll spare you) but it's too rich a question to implicitly assert an answer.

<comment><USER28> _I'd also observe that if one lives more or less their entire reality in some sort of VR simulation... so what?_

The meta-question here is very interesting. At what point do humans controlling their environment cease being humans? So yes, you could sit absolutely still and live a tremendously-rewarding virtual life because you have designed a world that emotionally compels you to never leave. To the rest of us, you look like a potted plant. Does that make you less human? Or, to put differently, if you were completely paralyzed, yet were able to think (I believe they call it "locked in") is there anything wrong with you that the rest of us should care about and fix? Is how we define being a human inexorably linked to physical social participation? I believe so, but I'm not comfortable with my own line of reasoning here.

Note that I don't have a problem with us evolving into something else. My only concern is that we acknowledge what's happening so that we can realistically talk about it. If we are evolving, then there will be a selection function that we had get pretty damn good at meeting. I imagine that function is going to be the ability to turn the system off from time to time. What I see instead is millions of folks who spend more time than even they are happy with plugged in and are in a great bit of denial as to exactly what social effect that is having. If you ask me, the singularity is already here. We just can't see it.

<comment><USER29> If we were to take the concept of a VR "thought is action" simulacrum seriously, I think that maybe current standards for what is seen as socially good can still apply there- it is better to "produce" so that others may "consume", than to primarily consume yourself. So maybe VR actors, musicians, and coders will still be seen as doing something worthy of more prestige than typical VR gamers. The only difference between then and now is how much physical activity your body needs to spend to accomplish that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I sometimes reflect about this and one aspect that was not mentioned and I believe will have a lot of weight on how all this evolves is the maltusian limits of the real world vs the cornucopian and limitless aspect of the virtual.

Simple economics tell us that as population grows and natural resources are depleted, real physical goods and services will become scarce and costly especially compared to virtual ones which seem to be created with a shrinking amount of matter and energy.

The implication of this are interesting for the evolution of humanity.

Will reality become a luxury, where the common people will be able to afford nothing more than basic subsistence including low cost per calorie diet and a few cubic meters of real word dwelling? Will only the rich be able to afford the additional matter and energy to provide for further floor space, better food and physical travel?

The cost difference between virtual experiences and real world experiences might become so large that most people will prefer to get the better bang for the buck available virtually.

What are the implication for jobs, how will value be created and distributed when people spend most of their time in a virtual world? Here, I don't mean just entertainment goods that are only worth something in the context of a game. I mean things like education, artistic virtual experiences, virtual social events, virtual performances, movies, music, etc. The virtual economy will be greatly influenced by intellectual property laws and I assume, a lot of these goods will have to include DRM for sustaining jobs even if the goods are really cheap compared to real world goods.

What activities will give meaning to human life? Intellectual endeavors, artistic endeavors and socializing should remain low cost and may still offer a lot of depth and complexity to people's lives, especially as the tools to support these activities become better. In fact, if you evaluate your life by the breath of ideas, relationships and arts you are able to master, a life lived virtually might become more fulfilling than one encumbered by the limits of the real world.

How will serious social relationships evolve in virtual worlds? What are the implications for reproduction?

In a virtual world, it is going to be really easy to move away when not getting along with a community. It will also be really easy to create new communities for like minded individuals. People might not have to get along they might just isolate themselves in smaller communities. What are the implications for the way politics will be performed. What are the implication for law enforcement? What are the implications for war and how will all this spill over into the real world? The communities will still have to collaborate to maintain real world security and defense.

Then there is the issue of the physical body's health needs. Will the human body be able to adapt to this type of life?

Will resource scarcity push humanity to a virtual existence? When you look at people living in their parents' basement spending all their time online, sometimes because of the lack of economic opportunity in the real world, it sure makes it look like the transition has already begun.

<comment> loup-vaillant You can push the logic even further : as even sustaining your body in a small tank becomes unsustainable, one might _really_ go all virtual : get rid of your body, and upload your mind in a piece of silicon (or whatever replaced silicon). The silicon would be much less expensive to run than your meat brain.

Even if you don't believe your upload wouldn't truly be _you_ , you might take the option, if the alternative is certain death by starvation. Better die and spawn a ghost, than die and leave nothing.

Now it's not all pretty: if you assume a capitalistic, competitive environment, one could set up "interesting" forms of exploitation. An upload could be saved, stopped, restarted, spied on, tortured… Robin Hanson produced quite interesting (though horrifying) speculation about how such a world might look like.

<comment><USER31> "Better die and spawn a ghost, than die and leave nothing." What's the point of a ghost? How does this make your situation "better"? Your point is based on the assumption that death is inherently "bad".

<comment><USER32> Darwinism suggests that if ghosts can continue to exist (and reproduce?) and affect the world to create more of themselves (e.g. tell people that it's not so bad), then they will be selected-for.

Ceasing to exist is, in a strict Darwinian sense, bad. Reproduction and, to an extent, continued existence are good.

<comment> loup-vaillant Seconded. It should be noted that some people see making children as a form of immortality. My own mom thinks along the lines of "what's the point of living forever, you just have to make children".

I say the immortality of my genes pale in comparison to the immortality of my thought processes. Even if the copy isn't really "me", it will have the same influence I could have had if it was. I may have other goals besides not dying. My ghost would have at least a chance of carrying them out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Using technology as not only a getaway but as a replacement for the 'human OS' (if you will) has been slowly happening over the past 30 years, and will continue to happen as long as technology makes real life better.

Think about how you work today: you sit down in front of a screen. You sit there for 5, 8, 12 hours and stare at a screen to do your work. Millions of desk-workers everywhere have become people staring at screens for about 8 hours a day, playing with a handheld screen when not at a desk.

A large part of it is because technology is enabling and seen as a benefit, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is an invasive effect in the lives of the first world. As technology gets better, becomes more enabling, and allows us to do more with it, I don't see that stopping.

<comment><USER34> Well, yes, but 30 years ago I was at a desk staring at sheets of paper. Working at the computer is better for my posture, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> The lime green background color is killing my eyes. Didn't even read the whole article.

</comment><comment><USER36> This kind of stuff always reminds me of Nick Bostram and the "Simulation Argument" <http://www.simulation-argument.com>

<comment><USER37> It always reminds me of Nozick's "experience machine" thought experiment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> This article reminds me of one of the Pendragon books: <http://djmachalebooks.com/books/pendragon/the-reality-bug/>

In the book, the protagonist discovers a world in which people have abandoned reality in favor of a more enjoyable virtual world. As a result, society declines to the point where the real world is crumbling down.

Not saying that's what will happen, but it's an interesting read.

</comment><comment><USER15> It's also known as superstimulus; relevant LW article: [http://lesswrong.com/lw/h3/superstimuli_and_the_collapse_of_...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/h3/superstimuli_and_the_collapse_of_western/)

</comment><comment><USER28> Obligatory reminder of the article I wrote 3 years ago and posted here, "Technology is Heroin" [http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2009/02/technology_is...](http://www.whattofix.com/blog/archives/2009/02/technology_is_h.php)

Good to see people continuing to recognize this troubling fact and the community trying to come to terms with it.

<comment><USER9> I mean, "Amusing Ourselves to Death" was published in 1985, and Nietzsche wrote in 1874,

      Increasingly we lose this sense of surprise, so that we are no longer overly
      amazed at anything and, ultimately, find satisfaction in everything—this is
      what is called historical sensibility, historical cultivation. Stated
      noneuphemistically: the massive influx of impressions is so great; surprising,
      barbaric, and violent things press so overpoweringly—'balled up into hideous
      clumps'—in on the youthful soul; that it can save itself only by taking
      recourse in premeditated stupidity.

So I'm not sure what the point of the "pre-date" claim is. I am curious if you've come up with any good suggestions on how to 'fix' the problem in those intervening years, though.

<comment><USER28> Don't forget Kierkegaard, who made very similar observations well before Nietzsche.

No doubt there is a very human pattern at work that hasn't changed over the centuries. Also no doubt that there is a technological amplifier at work as well.

I look at it like money: having lots of money tends to make you more of what you already are. So if you're a jerk, being rich is just going to exacerbate that. In a way, then, being able to handle great wealth is an indication of a very stable (and perhaps dull) personality.

Technology is doing a very similar thing with distractions. Some folks are easily distracted. Some are not. As technology improves, people who are less- easily distracted are finding they are spending more and more of their time plugged in. The best argument here is self-reports: many people freely acknowledge that they spend more time plugged in _than they are comfortable with_.

As far as solutions, I tried a couple myself, along with some volunteers from HN. Didn't get a lot of traction, sadly. "Purposeful interruptions" was the line we were pursuing. At the time of the essay, my money was on a new form of morality taking hold -- that it simply won't be "cool" to spend too much time physically inert. That hasn't happened, sadly.

PG also wrote an essay a few months after mine along these lines. I keep hoping that with so many smart people looking at this we will start seeing some breakthroughs.

<comment><USER9> I guess if we were to trace the genealogy of the idea, Plato's Republic has the words,

      "Now, the true city is in my opinion the one we just described--a
      healthy city, as it were. But, if you want to, let's look at a
      feverish city, too. Nothing stands in the way....This healthy
      one isn't adequate any more, but must already be gorged with a
      bulky mass of things."

I tried a solution once, too: I threw away my computer.

<comment><USER39> How did you decide to acquire it back, if I may ask?

<comment><USER9> I never got my laptop back. Eventually I needed a computer again, but for about 6 months I survived fairly well without one. I guess, for me, it reached a point of addiction & needed a clean break to recover sanity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> See also - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation>

</comment><comment><USER41> There's even the theory that addiction to video games helps explain the Fermi paradox:

<http://www.edge.org/q2007/q07_print.html#miller>

Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1550112>

<comment><USER42> Excellent, that is an interesting explanation to the Fermi Paradox.

So what we have to do is gamify exploration and conquest and we'll rule the galaxy within the next thousand years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> As if writing verbose rants (mirroring equivalent rants about movies, radio, books, plays, etc. throughout human history) is somehow a superior activity.

 _the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so._

\- Ratatouille

</comment><comment><USER41> Perhaps the only thing saving us from enslavement to superstimulus is the hedonic treadmill.

And vice-versa.

</comment><comment><USER44> Hopefully capitalism and women will prevent a disaster by rewarding productive and diciplined humans with wealth and children.

If a society does not threaten its people with poverty, misery and slavery as a consiquence to wasting your life on video games, then that society will crumble to make way for one that does.

<comment><USER29> The point I'm wondering though is will technology make it so that it's just as easily to accomplish productive tasks from within a physical-less VR simulation, as it is to play video games? In which case neither producers nor consumers need to remain in physical reality for long, since they can accomplish their tasks via thought alone?

In the last few decades we've seen white collar workers become shackled to the desktop, and then shackled to the internet. Just how many hours a day do any of us spend away from the Net? How much of the physical world are we missing compared to our ancestors?

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Quite frankly, ordinary life is not that different from WoW. You go on quests, you level-up your character through education and courses, and then you earn points (money) that you can spend on shiny things like cars.

Seriously.

<comment><USER46> But real life is not balanced, and not fair, and everything takes forever. And you can't save and load game, so most people are too afraid of failure to try anything really cool or dangerous.

But they want to feel the achievement so they do it in games, where everything is fine-tuned to be achievable.</comment></comment>