Amazon has no idea how to run an app store - <AUTHOR> http://www.smashcompany.com/business/amazon-has-no-idea-how-to-run-an-app-store <comment><AUTHOR> This is perhaps the key bit of silliness:

"And this is where we run into the first bit of craziness. Amazon decided that they should model the Alexa app store after the iPhone app store. So there is a certification process to get your app into the store. But think about the difference: you are not uploading a binary file to the Alexa app store, you are simply registering an URL. So Amazon has no real control over your software. You could get an app approved, and then you could swap out the app for any other app, and the Certification team at Amazon would never know. They don't control your code. Your code is not in their store, so they have no control over what you do. And yet they modeled this process after the iPhone store, where Apple does have control over your app."

But that doesn't get at how crazily broken the certification system. You have to read the quotes from the other developers to understand that.

<comment><USER2> You are assuming that the only purpose of certification is to catch actively malicious developers. I can think of many other perfectly good reasons to have one: to make sure server response times are fast enough, to make sure it fits the guidelines for types of content they want in their ecosystem, to make sure it doesn't blatantly violate any trademarks, etc.

I don't think the concept of a certification process is the problem, just the implementation is terrible (compared to the Apple process which is merely "poor")

<comment><USER3> But that doesn't refute the parent's point: since the content at a URL is inherently mutable, they could judge that (at time of submission) some app is the type of content they want in their ecosystem, and then seconds after approval, it no longer is.

<comment><USER4> It could be that the client device validates a checksum against the approved list at the store before installing? Haven't tested if this is the case, just spitballing a mechanism that would allow for the control without the hosting.

<comment><USER5> [https://github.com/substack/hyperboot](https://github.com/substack/hyperboot)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Apple's review process also sometimes felt arbitrary, especially early on, and there's been a long list of complaints over the years that sound just like these.

I used to work in games, and the approvals for Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft were all super, ridiculously frustrating at times. We had experiences very much along the same lines of failing again for doing the very thing they asked of us in the previous rejection.

Anyway, usually it works out eventually. No problem with making some noise about it being bad, and hopefully they hear it, but it is not uncommon, nor unique to Amazon.

The point about registering a URL isn't entirely accurate, IMO; plenty of Apple App Store apps consist partially or entirely of webviews. Even for fully native apps, Apple doesn't really have "control" of the code in the sense described in the article. Registration and the approval process are primarily there to give the publishers control over what appears in their store, as well as identify the submitters in a way that attempts to keep a little bit of accountability should they do something bad. Those reasons for requiring registration and review are just as valid for a url as for a bundle of code.

<comment><USER7> My experience in games has been the opposite. As opposed to Apple and Amazon, the console certification requirements are set in stone. The documents are very clear about what you have to do.

<comment><USER8> The requirements are generally much better documented for consoles. But some of the requirements can still be subjective. Edge cases still pop up as well, and the requirements can change over time (especially early in the console cycle when everything is still getting ironed out - nevermind when switching between console generations.)

Even ignoring the edge cases and subjective items, they can be _extremely_ picky about such important things as... leaderboard username terminology. Which will not necessarily be the same across all storefronts from a given company, even if they're all using the same service under the hood.

And then the moment you step into the territory of needing waivers for anything - better hope your publisher has a good relationship to secure those.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Or Amazon video on Android device I have -- in order to have play prime videos it told me to disable app source checking and side-load some .apk file, which will then help me get the Amazon video apk file... or something.

Yeah forget that. At first I thought it was a joke of some sort. But I guess that's how you are supposed to do it.

I'll just stick to Netflix and watch videos there. Somehow that manages to work without side-loading a bunch of crap.

<comment><USER10> What's the threat model there? It's not like _Amazon_ are going to start stealing customer credit card numbers - if anything they're one of the few companies I'd trust to get security right. Tick the checkbox in settings, install the APK, untick the checkbox again. It's really not a lot of effort or risk.

(The most sensible-sounding negative claim I've heard is that Amazon do that so that they can do more invasive location tracking than Google permits (though the same kind that Google does themselves))

<comment><USER9> > What's the threat model there?

* It annoys me as a consumer.

* It reeks of incomptency ( yeah, go and disable that security check that looks like it is there to prevent malicious software to be installed on your device, yeah, yeah, that one ).

* It is a convoluted process.

* It leaves my device vulnerable. Let's not speculate (like you did apparently) but copy and paste from their own source:

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016361&ref_=mas_surl_undrgrnd)

\---

Update Phone Settings

        Go to your phone Settings page
        Tap Security or Applications (varies with device)
        Check the Unknown Sources box
        Confirm with OK

Step 2 Go to Downloads

        Open Downloads on your device by going to My Files or Files
        Tap on the Amazon App file (Amazon_App.apk)
        Tap Install when prompted

Step 3 Launch Underground App

        Tap Open to launch the Amazon Underground App
        Use the Menu on the left and select Apps & Games

\---

Yeah, I don't see anything about the "untick the checkbox again" part.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's really remarkable how much Amazon's reputation has been self-destructing in the last year or so.

Even 6 months ago when I told people I thought Amazon was an all-around shitty company (having worked there) and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Google, FB, etc., people looked at me like I was insane.

Somehow the stock keeps going up... I don't have any material insider info but just on a hunch I doubt that will remain true forever.

<comment><USER12> Having worked there as well and recently left, I'm super surprised as well to see them considered with the likes of Google or Facebook, etc.

Shitty middle managers are rampant. The engineering culture is defined by Levels..Level 3, 4, 5 etc. Consistency is promoted over quality. Codebases were so horribly not DRY it makes me want to vomit.

Unit tests for constants -- unit tests for specific code inside of functions.

I can go on and on. But generally the place is ran like it's a sales company primarily. Not an engineering company.

Amazon has a cancer through out it. It's basically a shitty copy of Microsoft without any of the virtues..but all the vices.

Not to mention, it says a lot that they have no perks except "free tea." 12 Leadership principles, which are dumb shit like "Be curious", "Have instinct."

Amazon doesn't have the brightest or the best - they have sheep that get tangled in the middle, or assholes that somehow become management. The company is only surviving because it set its margins so low that no one else could compete.

But now market leaders are sprouting out. Chewy.com for pet food. Walmart.com for general goods. Drugstore.com / Soap.com / Walgreens.com, the list goes on.

With such a shitty internal culture, Amazon will fall. I will have a shit- eating grin when that happens.

\</comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>---

Amazon Web Services was their saving grace. But having seen internally how each team has different practices, different tech..some that are arcane and esoteric. Theres no cohesion. Even the CSS for Amazon, theres no sheet that is shared. Each team has to hard-rip the colors and whatnot from other projects like the retail site.

Makes me totally re-evaluate AWS after seeing how its built internally.

The charm of AWS is that every service in that goddamn console looks like its a polished part of a pyramid of engineering sanctity.

Heh, wrong. Each service...written by a different team, with totally different methods, totally different tech. Some teams even use .NET and IIS... You can probably probe the endpoints to some of these services and maybe see it externally. But well, take my word for it.

Once a team has a decent AWS project, they slap together a new logo. Make the UI blend with the existing panel. And then scale it using existing AWS services. But it still is a hydra of mismatched code.

The whole thing is a frankenturd - they did a good job with the design, ui, and IAM policies to make these services look like they are all part of the same cohesive development. But it simply isn't the case. AWS is patched together like a paranoid android on the inside.

<comment><USER13> If AWS is so shitty on the inside, why aren't the blogs filled with stories about bugs etc after the enormous amount of use it gets ?

<comment><USER14> I suspect only EC2/S3 and their paired services (EBS, IAM, etc) gain enough use to qualify as "enormous" and thus receive wide attention for their failings. AWS has a _lot_ of services:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services#List_of_pr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services#List_of_products)

Putting that aside, I'm not sure "why aren't people complaining?" is a reasonable way to prove or disprove how buggy software is.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> No one has any idea how to run an App Store. Even Apple's App Store is vastly inadequate to sell the gigantic number of apps available on it. Top N apps make out like bandits, everyone else is basically dying. It will always be power law, but IMO the tail could extend quite a bit further than it does today.

<comment><USER5> The App Store is not there to serve developers

<comment><USER15> It's not clear who or what it serves right now. It stands to reason (from simple arithmetic) that the more money developers make the more money Apple will make as well. They do make billions off that store. Making more money means surfacing more apps to more users, adapting to user preferences, employing prediction, etc. Apple doesn't seem to be doing much (if any) of that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm the same "Galactoise" quoted in the original story. I'm really happy to see the conversation that cropped up here, about the lack of value around trying to certify a mutable black box, and hopefully the power of HN is enough to get some action from the Alexa team.

I also wanted to pass along a blog post I threw together on the topic. [http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of- certification](http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of-certification)

It's pretty long, but the tldr is as follows: We're all worked up about this idea of having to build switches into our code to meet arbitrary certification guidelines, only to turn them off the moment we are live in prod. It's worth noting, though, that Amazon pulls these sort of antics (bait-n-switches) on us regularly and without remorse, and that there's really no way we can even know it happened. This is arguably even more destructive to the quality of our products than trying to build for a set of capricious guidelines.

</comment><comment><USER17> Not surprised by this at all.

>However, the Amazon system is so broken that it potentially offers a fix for itself. When the Certification Team rejects your app, you don't need to change the app. You do not need to respond to their requests. You do not need to make any of the changes that they demand. Since a new person reviews each submission, and since there is no limit on submissions, one way to get through the certification process is to simply roll the dice and spam the certification team. Submit an app 10 times, or 20 times, or 30 times. At some point you will probably get lucky, and someone will approve your app.

Amazon has clearly put a lot of thought into how this is going to work.

They also have no idea how to run a video streaming service; or they think they do, and just don't know how much it sucks. They also have started sucking in buying things, with things like "pantry" which require you to buy a box for $5 so you can get things like soap.

I canceled my prime and have been buying things from stores. I buy my videos (ala DVD) so I can watch them when i want and not be worried about them getting pulled by disney from the "prime" section and being forced to buy it.

Honestly, the only thing I have any respect for is AWS. But even that is severely lacking in polish in clarity, and it's almost a full time job trying to keep up with their additions and changes.

<comment><USER18> > They also have started sucking in buying things, with things like "pantry" > which require you to buy a box for $5 so you can get things like soap.

Delivering batches of household goods of arbitrary size profitably is a hard problem that no one has figured out. Everyone is fiddling with business models trying to make it work.

I think at the end of the day shipping is expensive and trying to hide that from customers without incentivizing profit-negative transactions is nigh impossible.

Things will probably change when we have droids roaming the sidewalks, but until then these strange charges are going to keep popping up.

<comment><USER19> _Delivering batches of household goods of arbitrary size profitably is a hard problem that no one has figured out._

Wait, wait, I think I've figured it out. _Raise the price._ Repeat until either the transaction is sufficiently profitable, or the customers go away.

That will work better for everyone than what Amazon has started to do lately, which is prevent you from buying certain items at any price until your order exceeds $25.

Basically, Amazon has started to tell their customers "No." That's new, and I agree with the other posters who call it a bearish sign.

<comment><USER20> Maybe the current prices are already low enough that raising them would make the customers go away?

<comment><USER19> I can only speak for myself. Seriously, are people actually _defending_ Amazon's add-on items? I'd love to hear more about the business rationale, no snark intended.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The 'app store' is the adulterated form of the Linux package repository. No shock that when you remove community management, accountability, openness, verifiability and add in monetization things get shittier.

<comment><USER22> I think that's how app stores began - do you remember 'Click N Run' in 2002? [http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/mp3tunes/cnr- linspire...](http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/mp3tunes/cnr-linspire- installer.jpg)

<comment><USER23> The NeXT Computer and the NeXTSTEP operating system was the platform used for creating the first App Store, originally demonstrated to Steve Jobs in 1993.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT)

<comment><USER22> Do you have any screenshots? Your comment originally said NeXT created bundles, which is very different from an online store for software.

<comment><USER23> Yes, the bundle thing is also true. I found the bit about app stores while I was trying to find a year.

No screenshots. I just remembered that the bundle thing was something I was excited about wrt Next at the time. And booting from Cdrom, and display postscript. I wanted one so badly but by the time I had money they were very obsolete.

<comment><USER22> There's no reference though. It's just:

> creating the first App Store which was originally demonstrated to Steve Jobs > in 1993

without any footnotes. Would have loved to actually read something on the topic.

<comment><USER23> I only know really know about it from memory and even then it's from reading PC-World, not direct experience.

The Bundle was one of those great ideas for users that got kicked in the nuts by Copy Protection methods until signing and activation was bult into the OS proper.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_%28OS_X%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_%28OS_X%29)

Even on early Windows all you had to do was xcopy a directory to share it with friends. My Quake2 folder still follows me from machine to machine.

<comment><USER22> Yeah, I get what you're saying about bundles, and I think they're a great idea, I just want to see if you have anything about what you said re: a place to buy bundles online.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Interesting timing: I just got an e-mail for a (free) app that I purchased in the Amazon app store. Only problem, I have never visited the Amazon app store. The Amazon rep on the live chat explains to me that this is because someone entered their e-mail address incorrectly when making a purchase. How does that make sense? Shouldn't you need to be signed in to your Amazon account (or some other account) to make an app purchase? It actually makes you type in your confirmation e-mail address manually? Can someone with experience in their app store comment? That seems like a brutal design decision...

</comment><comment><USER25> I have an echo. I like it, but the skills store is awful for the consumer too. Too many silly apps (like the current #1 listing a fart app referenced below), and the app features a skills list, but no categorization, no option to filter apps by stars so unknown gems can be discovered, no stats on installs, no rating distribution graphs. All very strange.

Worse still, there's no standard vocabulary to interact with skills and the flexibility of the wording depends on the developer. You need to mention the app, which can have weird long names (e.g. Agog Reader) or near-duplicate names (e.g. three bitcoin apps).

All-in-all, the skills feature (and the skills store) feels like an after- thought.

<comment><AUTHOR> > All-in-all, the skills feature (and the skills store) feels like an after- > thought.

Joseph Jaquinta expressed a similar sentiment when he wrote:

"Amazon's traditional areas (everything on AWS) follows a different model. They are more like a utility. Minimal engagement. No direct support. They provide a service. You take it or leave it. While this I think is a workable approach for a wide audience in a mature area, I do not think it is a wise approach for Alexa. But, that's if they give a hoot about 3rd party developers and think they are going to add any significant value to their platform. We don't know if this is so, because they won't say."

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is my take on it here: [http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining- amazons-indi...](http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining-amazons- indifference/)

<comment><AUTHOR> This bit from your blog post is a great summary:

"There's no public tracker for tickets. Features and suggestions go off into the void, and you're left guessing if they are ever going to happen. Releases come infrequently and unannounced. There's no product roadmap. No indication of what's coming up. Nothing to create a development plan against. There's no bidirectional collaboration with the community. The closest any developer gets to the team is during skill certification. And, even then, names are hidden and you only get anonymous mails from the "Alexa Skills Team"."

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Other than the operational issues, like not have a good way to contact amazon, this reminds me of a 900-number system we ran at MCI.

When you registered for a 900-number, you had to submit a script along with it. MCI would try to limit the possibility that you'd use it for some nefarious purpose, all CYA. They had a team (probably one person) that audited the numbers periodically. That didn't stop people re-using the numbers for bogus financial services and adult things.

<comment><USER28> We went through the same thing a couple years ago with an SMS short code. Had to submit a script (despite it being dynamically driven), set a max number of messages per month (despite it being user-initiated), etc.

The real kicker is we once got a massive nastygram from Verizon threatening us with shutdown - they claimed we were sending porn spam messages via the number. After quite some time auditing our entire stack we got a "our bad, one of our techs had malware on their Android phone" email.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I think the whole approval process is just a ToS legal scheme of "we did our part, so we can go after you and blame you if something happened." I don't know if will ever scan your URL for any intelligent malicious misuse but it may. If someone can explain exactly how "skill" works with Alexa... sounds like some kind of Pipe / IFTT kind of service.

</comment><comment><USER30> The amazon music application is also one of the most appalling software too, it is messy, it keeps flashing, there doesn't seem to be any logic in how the screens are organised, it's impossible to know where you are or how to go back to one place. I love amazon, I buy half of my music on amazon music, but downloading the music is an unnecessary painful step.

Also they need to improve the quality of the samples vs itunes. When you buy a rock song, there is usually is only one recording of that song. But if you buy classical music there will be many recordings with very different qualities. With the quality of the samples available now, it's almost impossible to tell if a recoding will be of a good quality or not. Itunes has much better quality.

<comment><USER31> I've had a good experience with the web app [1]. It's a surprisingly well designed piece of software compared to it's competitors (e.g. Spotify or Pandora). The library could definitely use better curation though.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/gp/dmusic/cloudplayer/player](https://www.amazon.com/gp/dmusic/cloudplayer/player)

<comment><USER30> I am referring to the windows app.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Follow-up, this post getting love on HN seems to have helped us get their attention. We had a conference call with them where we were able to work through a lot of the issues we were facing:

[http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/the-certification-saga- problem...](http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/the-certification-saga-problem- solving)

</comment><comment><USER32> The post-approval switcheroo is similar to the Office/SharePoint app stores - really all the 'app' is is a delegation of permission. If your app can change and operate within the permission you're initially granted during 'installation,' you can really do anything you'd like in the actual application itself. A rather large hole.

</comment><comment><USER33> Maybe they should add support for the certification process. They could price this in nano-seconds using utc time based on the region of the developer (except u.s east virginia). If you are rejected you could get max-support integration (4 pico dollars a parsec) to resubmit.

Overall, amazon's coherent pricing strategy and simplicity make it a pleasure to work with

</comment><comment><USER34> From a practical standpoint, why would you not try to pass the certification process first with a bare-bones, minimally viable service designed specifically to pass certification? Then iterate on top once it is in.

</comment><comment><USER35> The Firefox Marketplace does the exact same thing. One simply submits a URL, it gets approved, then becomes available. Any changes made afterwards go unnoticed by moderators.

<comment><USER36> For FirefoxOS "hosted" apps this is true, but they also don't have access to any significant APIs. Only "packaged" apps do.

This is also not true for add-ons (for desktop/mobile or FirefoxOS), these are packaged as zip files and can't be arbitrarily changed.

However, there is the problem however of the app or add-on downloading and running code from the internet unchecked, which is probably intractable to do in an automated way (at least for the current APIs exposed, and for a dynamic language like JS), manual review is required.

Mozilla requires manual review, and Apple disallows interpreters. I'm not sure what if anything Google does about this problem for Android.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> This article gave me an enormous sense of deja vu, as a former Amazon employee. I managed the QA of user-submitted media for a service run by one of its subsidiaries, and the requirements for this service, too, were unreasonable and communicated very poorly.

Somehow, Amazon's "working backwards" principle always fails when it comes to establishing reasonable procedures, SLAs, and solid documentation.

</comment><comment><USER38> What would be the solution? Is there even a way to verify that web services are not malicious?

<comment><USER16> The solution is to not try to verify the content of a rest service.

There is a lot of good that Amazon can do with their certification process - things like helping a developer figure out appropriate example phrases, or making sure that all of the appropriate fields are filled in (like providing a thumbnail for the appstore, etc).

Their weird pedantism about an arbitrary set of rules, however, serves only to scare off those of us who are actually interested in advancing the default user experience. Out of the box experimentation is frowned upon, and the result is that they're basically handing the ecosystem to the shovelware creators.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Apple also has no idea how to run an app store. Does anyone?

</comment><comment><USER40> lol title change

<comment><USER41> Yeah that sure got editorialized, didn't it? For the newcomers, pretty much all day this post was titled "Amazon has no idea how to run an app store"

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Actual title: Amazon has absolutely no idea how to run an app store

Why did the title change? It used to be the same as the original article, but now it's been needlessly editorialized to be kinder to amazon. Seriously? What the fuck. That's not HN's job, and is a disservice to the article, and the community.

<comment><USER42> The submitted article and especially its title are both emotional to a fault and sensationalist. The arguments presented are backed up only by anecdote and cherry-picked comments from other people who have been rejected by Amazon. I've seen all this before. There's a reason why the article is scant on the details of the rejection. In the same way a rant about PayPal tends to exclude certain details that deflate the author's rage. His final paragraph is the icing on the cake. I'm glad to see the title change.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a strange thing to say:

"There's a reason why the article is scant on the details of the rejection"

Did you click through the link to the page where the developers were discussing the certification process on the Amazon developer forum? This is the link the article above:

[https://forums.developer.amazon.com/forums/thread.jspa?messa...](https://forums.developer.amazon.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=27691)

This seems as detailed as you will find for a critique of an app store.

And additionally, both of those developers linked to their own blog posts where they offered still more details:

[http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of- certification](http://www.derpgroup.com/blog/on-the-topic-of-certification)

[http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining-amazons- indi...](http://ocean-of-storms.com/tsatsatzu/explaining-amazons- indifference/)

You say the final paragraph is the "icing on the cake". The final paragraph is a summary of what Joseph Jaquinta suggested in his longer post. The above linked blog post would be redundant if it simply copy-and-pasted everything that developers had written over at the Amazon developer forums. Like any blog post, it was written with the assumption that some people would click through the links to see the source material.

<comment><USER42> Actually, I didn't see those. I'll read them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> That title is over the top, so we replaced it with the much more neutral first sentence of the article.

<comment><USER40> yeah, agreed with Candelabra - that title got lots of upvotes and was what it was

<comment><USER43> The problem is that such titles routinely get upvotes, presumably because of some reflex they trigger in the brain. If we want to have a site that gratifies intellectual curiosity—which we do—we have no choice but to counteract them. That's a fundamental principle of this place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> In fairness, it seems this is true for Apple (broken review process) and Google (malware infestation).

Oddly, I haven't heard one horror story about the Windows Phone app store.

<comment><USER44> Google Play does not have a "malware infestation". I have never once downloaded any malware, lookout has never detected any malware on my phone and I've never known anyone who has downloaded malware from Google Play. Anecdotal for sure, but given you said "infestation" you'd think I'd be crazy to download anything at all from Google Play. Absolute nonsense.

<comment><USER45> Indeed. This is so overblown it is pathetic.

Edit: I wonder what smut the down voters have been downloading that may have given them the malwares. Reputable apps are fine. And there's no infestation. Just stahp.

<comment><USER46> Malware-containing apps have millions of downloads, and there are/were thousands of them. One might argue if that is an "infestation", given the much larger number of apps in the store, but it also isn't something that has only happened once or twice.

And when it comes to e.g. games there isn't much of reputation information outside a very small set of hits. No need to download "smut".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Fun fact: Jeff Bezos won't let anyone at Amazon buy a color printer.

<comment><USER48> Have no idea what you are talking about, as we had multiple color printers in my team.</comment></comment>


MyEsalon Needs Feedback on Design, UI,UX - <AUTHOR> http://www.myesalon.com

<comment><USER2> The website looks really old style and average.

The menu containing Web marketing, Web designing and so on, needs to modified. Probably a smaller and better font would do the job.

And most importantly the icons for design and development, web management and everything do not follow any theme. They all seem to portray a different theme for the icons. Probably changing them would be a good a option.

Lastly the about section also needs a lighter font color and different font size.</comment>


Groklaw - The Google-Microsoft Fight About FISMA Certification - <AUTHOR> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110413220154117 <comment><USER2> Very hesitant to get involved in this but to quote Frank Shaw's tweet at <https://twitter.com/fxshaw/status/58672412950138880> \- "just pointing out we never said we had the certification. Google did. DOJ said they didn't."

There's also this post [http://www.geekwire.com/2011/blog-fight-google-calls- microso...](http://www.geekwire.com/2011/blog-fight-google-calls-microsoft- irresponsible-suggesting-misled-federal-government) which highlights both sides of the story so far.

</comment><comment><USER3> It is worth noting that the Department of the Interior and the Department of Indian Affairs have lost a series of major lawsuits due to corruption and mismanagement. For instance Indian tribes sued it over the loss of $10 billion in Indian trust money, its own employees successfully sued it 4 times over violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act, individual agents such as Duane Garvais have their own lawsuits against it.

In short in virtually any dispute where there are allegations of corruption, lying, unfair practices, and the like, past history inclines me against believing whatever version of facts the Department of the Interior chooses to put forth.

The fact that in this case they are on Microsoft's side in a Microsoft vs Google fight does not help their credibility.

</comment><comment><USER4> IMHO, there's nothing shocking here for anyone who ever sold or built enterprise software for the .gov. The things involved in these deals are very complex. Google needs to hire some amazing enterprise sales people and not push its "we're right, you're wrong" message.

<comment><USER5> Yes, that would be the easier route to take for a large company with pockets as deep as Google's.

I think this move is smarter than that though. Google has a knack for picking fights that not only help their own immediate cause (landing this govt. deal) but also aim for the greater good (fighting corruption, ensuring the better technology wins.)

Whether it's genuine or just a show is impossible to tell, but if you don't have a vested interest in either side then you can't help but root for Google.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I just read the quote that everyone is printing (although haven't seen the full statement).

 _GSA certified the Google Apps Premier environment as FISMA compliant in July of 2010. Google Apps for Government uses the Google Apps Premier infrastructure, but adds additional controls in order to meet requirements requested by specific government agencies. The original FISMA certification remains intact while GSA works with Google to review the additional controls to update the existing July 2010 FISMA certification._

It's unclear to me what they're saying with respect to Google Apps for Gov. Are they saying that it is FISMA certified as of today? Or are they saying that its pending recert after the review, but the original Google Apps Premiere is still certified?

It sounds like they're saying its not certified w/ new controls, but they don't have to a full certification process on it as its built on a certified product -- they only need to check the deltas. In which case the DOJ and MS are technically correct.

Or are they saying that if you make a small change that requires recert, you keep you certification as the review takes place and they can revoke cert if they determine there's a problem. I can't believe that would be the case, because it would require pulling down a deployment, which can be expensive.

It would be nice if they simply said, "Google Apps for Gov" is certified. We're doing additional certs on new functionality, but the new functionality can be deployed as the cert is checked. But it's the US gov't, this is probably as clear as they get.

</comment><comment><USER7> Groklaw isn't shutting down because SCO became irrelevant. It seems Gloklaw continues with a broader scope of interest.

</comment><comment><USER8> I thought Groklaw was to cease publishing?

<comment><USER9> They will cease publishing as soon as companies PJ likes stop going to court with companies she doesn't.

In this case Google is pro-open source because they give away complements to their business model while keeping things that make them money closed source whilst Microsoft gives away complements to their business model while keeping things that make them money closed source which clearly distinguishes Google as good and Microsoft as evil.

<comment><USER10> And you know this how--- Because SCO told you or what? Groklaw will not close; PJ will stop writing articles, but the site will remain. There is even an outside chance that the reins will be turned over to another to keep up the crusade to educate both geeks and lawyers.</comment></comment></comment>


A better shift key for iPhone - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4Tbkgr3DTk

<comment><USER2> This is better... how?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey tantalor,

I'm one of the people behind Next Keyboard, a beautiful and powerful keyboard exclusively for iPhone users.

We've heard from many iPhone users that it's hard to tell whether the shift is active or not. We're addressing this issue by changing the case when you tap the shift key, making the key states much clearer and incorporating a unique sound for shift and caps lock.</comment></comment>


A Damning Verdict on Russia - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/13/russia-georgia-conflic-report

<comment><AUTHOR> I wish there was a way to offer an article without the ability for people to comment.

This article is sure to cause unnecessary argument -- for that, I'm sorry. But this was part of many conversations over the past year on this board and I thought the people who had those conversations might be interested in this information. I know I haven't seen it elsewhere. So it was definitely stuff that interested hackers, as evidenced by all the previous conversation.</comment>


Daring Fireball: Winning - <AUTHOR> http://daringfireball.net/2011/09/winning <comment><USER2> If money is how we keep score, why do we keep referencing figures that don't include Google or Microsoft's profits from the smartphone market? What about all the money Microsoft makes from Android, or that Google makes from iOS? Where do they fit in?

And is money really the best metric? After all, with the best CEO in the world, and the best COO, and the best product designer, and the best phone, and the best tablet, and all the other amazing qualities that people ascribe to Apple, and it has only just recently, for a short period made more money than Microsoft, which is run by a shaved baboon and done nothing more interesting than buying their way into the console market at a cost of tens of billions.</comment>


Steve Blank: Someone Stole My Startup Idea (part one) - <AUTHOR> http://steveblank.com/2009/12/03/someone-stole-my-startup-idea-%E2%80%93-part-1-are-those-my-initials/

<comment><AUTHOR> Part two:

[http://steveblank.com/2009/12/07/someone-stole-my-startup- id...](http://steveblank.com/2009/12/07/someone-stole-my-startup- idea-%E2%80%93-part-2-they-raised-money-with-my-slides/)

gets even more interesting, and has a very specific point in it that seems like all startup founders should consider:

 _Our competitor was executing on hypotheses we had developed 9 months ago, and their strategy remained static. We on the other hand, had moved on. We had discovered detailed information about what customers really needed and wanted and turned our original hypotheses into facts. We had validated our new assumptions by a set of orders, and we had pivoted on our business model. Our original idea had been nothing more than an untested set of hypotheses. Truth be told, we were no longer the company in those stolen slides._

 _While the common wisdom said that our success was going to be determined by which company executed better, the common wisdom was wrong. In a startup success isn't about just execution, it's how well we could take our original hypothesis and learn, discover, iterate and execute._</comment>


Ask HN: What will be the next big social network? - <AUTHOR> We had friendster, myspace, facebook/instagram, twitter, snapchat. How do you see the future of social networks? <comment><USER2> Isn't IPv6 a good enough social network. Everyone buys a static IP somehow, and instead of a page/wall/space they provide APIs and webpages. With enough battery efficiency, maybe handheld computers (smartphones, tablets, etc.) will be the most powerful in aggregate (if not already) category in computing. Torrenting may be a really good way to bootstrap this as well.

</comment><comment><USER3> we need a open decentralized network. if people are serious about it, they will set up a 501c3 for the infrastructure and have a multilayered approach to users and data.

Also this is a techno-optimist position, the realist in me will always say follow the kids(pre-teens/teens) or a specific niche. we have ephemeral pics/videos now, next will be something even more "me" centric

<comment><USER4> But how many times will this be tried? How many well-meaning Facebook alternatives will launch and fail, die slow deaths, or become sustained but marginal destinations? We have the technology, but that apparently isn't enough.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It'll be the more focused networks like Pinterest and Nextdoor that are in the process of becoming platforms.

They still have a ton of growth in them both in terms of users and in terms of product.</comment>


Guldencoin getting attention in the Netherlands - <AUTHOR> https://guldencoin.com/

<comment><USER2> i'm from the Netherlands and it's not getting much attention at all.</comment>


A U.S. Hunter Paid $110,000 to Shoot a Pakistani Goat - <AUTHOR> https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/02/14/694347077/a-u-s-hunter-paid-110-000-to-shoot-a-pakistani-goat <comment><USER2> Man, this is seriously some funny shit. I bet your ass for $110,000 nowhere in the world would it feel 'dangerous'. But, the best part, he shot the national animal. That got me good.

Of course, it's sad seeing someone shell out that much money in exchange for perceived fame/recognition among his peers. This sort of behavior never stems from the need to satisfy your own needs. You want to live to tell that "story"...

This goat, I don't care so much... but elephants, tigers, lions, etc... god damn man! In 100 years those trophies will have long be forgotten, sitting and rotting in some god forgotten garage in the middle of nowhere...

<comment><USER3> The funds are used for conservation and before the ownership and incentive system was in place, there was no value placed on the animals that were already hunted and killed. This is outrage porn, plain and simple.

> Note: Dilys Roe, a researcher with the IUCN, confirmed that "we do believe > it is an effective program." In a briefing paper on trophy hunting, the > organization warned of potential negative impacts from poorly managed > programs but praised the Pakistani effort, stating that it has "led to the > recovery and substantial increase of markhor populations."]</comment></comment>


Meet the quant hedge fund manager who's killing it this year - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/roy-niederhoffer-best-performing-hedge-fund-2016-2 <comment><USER2> So Roy is Victor Niederhoffer's younder brother. Victor's Education of a Speculator is must read for anyone interested in trading.

</comment><comment><USER3> >Over the last twenty years, the fund has posted annualized returns of 6.17%.

SP500 1995-2015 Annualized return (= True CAGR): 9.44%</comment>


How The World's Largest Solar Power Tower Field Powers 140,000 Homes - <AUTHOR> http://www.popsci.com/article/science/big-pic-worlds-largest-solar-power-tower-field?src=SOC&dom=tw

<comment><USER2> This is a very cool(hot?) project. I am interested to see the long term economics of it and how reliable the whole system will be.

I have heard of similar systems that use salt as the heated fluid in the towers. This allows for the towers to 'trap' heat and continue creating power when the sun is down. Maybe NRG (and the other companies) next build.</comment>


Ask HN: How Can I leave Syria now and get asylum in Europe (Germany) - <AUTHOR> Guys, I am in Syria(specifically in Damascus). Seems war is rolling out. Most of the people are moving to border regions but I cant and I am a programmer worked as a remote dev for an Australian startup. But I am not sure how long I will be able to work living in Syria. I want move to Europe specially in Germany as the startup scene is booming in Berlin. So can you guys give me suggestion of legal way to move in Germany as an asylum and will I be able to work if I can move. I went through google but couldn't find much information. And I will be happy to have contact with startups that are hiring dev. I have couple of years backend development experience with Python(Django),LAMP,Node.js and some unix skill. Thanks in advance. <comment><USER8> I'm a Syrian hacker myself, and I can suggest you a better option. Go to Dubai, it is easy to get a visit visa first, if you are in damascus you can go through Beirut Airport as the path is still safe between the cities (got many friends coming through that route). then you can try to find a job in Dubai (should be easier as the economy is growing and since you speak the language), I myself know many startups and companies and will try to help you as well.

if you find a good job in Dubai you might give up the whole idea of moving to Europe as the standard of living is really high and the country is tax-free and amazing. but still you should be able to get a Schengen visit visa easily (especially if you work for a good company).

<comment><USER9> This of course is assuming the poster isn't female.

Do not go to Dubai if you are a woman.

<comment><USER8> Not really, if you are a woman that would triple your chances of finding Jobs and great life.

The amount of respect and importance women get in Dubai is incomparable to any other country.

<comment><USER10> Rape victims can be jailed for over a year for "extramarital sex". That is not respect. [http://www.ibtimes.com/dubai-safe-female-travelers- norwegian...](http://www.ibtimes.com/dubai-safe-female-travelers-norwegian- woman-jailed-over-rape-report-warns-others-1354317)

<comment><USER8> People like to generalize a lot.

for someone who lived in Dubai for 5+ years, I find those stories really strange. the city is really different than what you get from Media.

the government give a lot of privileges to western residents that's why the local population is nearly 18% of the total population.

Dubai has a lot of problems with its social system, but these sex/rape stories are definitely not the major ones, and its totally uncommon to read such stories.

<comment><USER11> I'd say the biggest problem is the treatment of foreign workers. Maybe foreign workers from "the west" get good treatment, but the ones bussed in from Asia, for example, aren't treated so well.

<comment><USER8> I agree, that's one good example of social inequality. though, to be fair, I think the rulers are trying to improve the laws and the culture, for a third- world country UAE can never be compared to any of its neighbours where women can't even drive.

<comment><USER11> > I think the rulers are trying to improve the laws and the culture

How? As I understand it the _actual_ UAE citizens are getting 'fat' off of the oil money, so all of the menial labour work goes to poor foreigners that are bussed in from SE Asia. It's going to be difficult to change a culture of people that are used to poor Asians doing all of the 'crap jobs' for them while they just bask in money (so to speak).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> 1\. Keep your job with the Australian start up. 2\. Fly to Malaysia. You don't need visa to enter the country. 3\. Once you are in region in a safe place, you can figure out the next step. You will be in the most growing economic zone in the world. Don't go to Europe. Everybody's trying to get to Europe right now.

</comment><comment><USER13> Find a lawyer in Germany, and get advice from them before you go.

My knowledge is both limited, 12+ years outdated, and restricted to the UK, but here is my tuppence-worth anyway:

1\. It is both a legal and a bureaucratic process. 2\. Apply for asylum at the first possible opportunity. At the border crossing-point or airport, if possible. 3\. Don't lie. 4\. Be prepared with documentary evidence to back up any statements that you are going to make. 5\. If possible, have documentary evidence that you are facing persecution, or that your life is in danger. (Sounds silly in the current situation, I know, but anyway...) 6\. Make sure that a friendly party (or your lawyer) has a copy of these documents.

It might be easier, if the danger looks like it is going to be temporary, to reach out and try to get somebody to "host" you, and go on a visitor's visa.

<comment><USER14> I second what w_t_payne said. The following are just some ideas, please keep in mind that I'm no lawyer! This is no legal advice at all!

If you do have relatives in Germany, that might be a route to explore. I heard something in the news, that this may be an option.

For working though, that's going to be a tough one. Reading the Wikipedia article ([http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitserlaubnis](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitserlaubnis)) right, it states that: "Asylbewerber dürfen für die ersten 12 Monate überhaupt nicht arbeiten (§ 61 Abs. 2 AsylVfG), anschließend gilt ein nachrangiger Arbeitsmarktzugang nach der BeschVerfV (siehe oben)." Which translates to: people seeking asylum must not take up any employment for the first 12 month.

As well as "Asylberechtigte, Konventionsflüchtlinge (§ 25 Abs. 1 und 2 AufenthG) sowie Ausländer mit einer Niederlassungserlaubnis (§ 9 Abs. 1 AufenthG) haben nach dem Aufenthaltsgesetz ein Recht auf Erwerbstätigkeit.", which transaltes to: people granted asylum (and some others) holding a residence permit, are allowed to work.

That's both ends of the spectrum, so there may be some middle ground after 12 month. I'm not lawyer though!

Finally, I think, maybe the folks from PRO Asyl may be the right ones to ask. See: [http://www.proasyl.de/en/contact/](http://www.proasyl.de/en/contact/)

PS: regarding hosting, from my exprience it's a somewhat lengthy progress, depending on the regonal administration. Your host will have to provide financial standing for your stay (requirements differ for the duration of your stay), with that he or she has to send that document certifying the financial standing as well as a signed invitation to you (the original), with which you have to go to the german emabassy in your country and apply for a temporary visa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Sorry about your situation.

Are you Syrian? It may be easier to get to a country that does not require you having a visa then you decide on what to do later. As a dev, you can work remotely and earn money.

Check this out [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_ci...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_citizens).

Best of luck man.

<comment><USER16> That's great information. I'd get out of there now; Equador doesn't require a visa and looks like a great place to go and work out what to do next.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Be careful if you are tempted by Australia, in light of your employer. Refugees are a huge political issue in the current federal election and the two major parties are competing to see who can be the most inhumane. The Australia government is ignoring the UN refugee convention, with refugees without a visa being forcibly, and permanently, exported to Manus Island. The catch 22 is that the Australian government won't hand out a visa if there is any inkling that a person might be a refugee, so the phrase "without a visa" can be replaced with "all". Be cautious of researching refugee issues under your own identity, if you intend to apply for an Australian visa.

If you can get an Australia work visa and make it onto Australian soil, you might be able to circumvent the "no visa" rule. In this case, be wary of the possibility of detention, possibly indefinite, inside Australia. Australian officials will also do their best to keep a new arrival ignorant of their rights, allowing them to be deported, so find out exactly what your rights are and what the procedure and legally correct wording is to claim asylum and activate the UN process.

If considering Australia, perhaps get some advice from an expert, such as Sr Pat Sealey [1]? (Presumably she can be contacted though her order's South Australian address [2].)

[1] [http://www.catholicreligiousaustralia.org/index.php/news- a-v...](http://www.catholicreligiousaustralia.org/index.php/news-a-views/news- and-views/1118-tireless-refugee-advocate-recognised)

[2] [http://www.sosj.org.au/contact/2col- index.cfm?loadref=6](http://www.sosj.org.au/contact/2col-index.cfm?loadref=6)

\---

Edit: I'll add that it is not clear to me whether the automatic deportation only applies to refugees who arrive by boat, or to any refugee that arrives without a visa.

Further edit: My comment about indefinite detention in Australia applies if you arrive on a work visa then claim asylum, not if you are actually working and have not claimed asylum.

</comment><comment><USER18> I am not an expert so don´t take my word for it. But I heard that a general role has always been that you have to get to the country you which to have asylum in in order to apply. European union is discussion a banded that rule for Syria but I dont know the status of that decision. An other rule is that you have to apply for asylum in the first country you get into.

However... Sweden also spend lots of money on a virtual embassy in second life. Read more about it here: [http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Lifestyle/Reading/Second- Life/](http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Lifestyle/Reading/Second-Life/)

Maybe you can do a think of virtually applying for visa in sweden and write a pressrelease and push it on mynewsdesk.com. Startup community is also big in Sweden and we need skilled developers (Im swedish).

Carl Bildt,Foreign Minister of Sweden since 2006 ([https://twitter.com/carlbildt](https://twitter.com/carlbildt)) is very active on twitter and in my guess most likely to respond to a virtual request for visa by twitter and second life. This is a long shot but something you can try by your computer.

When you get visa in any EU country it is easy to move to germany and travel over boarders within EU.

</comment><comment><USER19> Hi. To get asylum in Germany is difficult.

First of all, make sure that you take a direct flight to Germany. If you enter any other European Country before, you have to get asylum there.

Second and maybe more important. If you try to get an asylum in Germany, you are not allowed to work for the first year. It's crazy and doesn't make any sense.

If you still want to get here. And it's a great city. Here is the Email address of the refugee help in Berlin: firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER20> You use the word asylum, which has a very specific meaning, but if you can find a skilled job, you might be able to migrate to another country through more conventional and less bureaucratic means. IANAL, but those are my 2 cents.

</comment><comment><USER21> Forget Germany as an asylum target. Our politicians have massively restricted asylum acceptance and even for those who do get accepted it's a hell of a fight and even more paperwork.

Also, you have the problem that you likely won't even be able to enter the European Union, except if you smuggle yourself via the Turkish-Greek border - but then again, the Germans simply fly you to Greece because this is the place where you entered the European Union technically.

<comment><USER22> Sorry for your situation and I hope you stay safe!

If you smuggle yourself via the Turkish-Greek border then you are stuck in the wonderful country of Greece forever basically. High unemployment, laws that are really unfriendly to asylum seekers (less than 2% acceptance rate) and the nazist party (facepalm..) has risen from obscurity to 5% in the latest elections, to 15% in the polls... So less than ideal environment for a programmer :)

Too many people have gone that route and now are stuck here because of that Dublin 2 convention that will return asylum seekers to the country that they entered the EU in the first place... So do whatever you can to avoid Greece as an entry country to EU. Try Sweden, you would love it except for the weather :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> There are some schemes in place that make it easier for non-EU nationals to get a work permit in Germany, it would require you to find an employer that pays a wage above a certain threshold (I believe it's called Blue Card).

A really helpful english-speaking source for any expat information on Germany is the [http://toytowngermany.com/forum](http://toytowngermany.com/forum) forum, especially the lengthy thread on visas and work permits: [http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4675...](http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46755)

Here's the thread for the Blue Card scheme: [http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2673...](http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=267365)

Hope that helps a tiny bit and good luck!

Edit: Another link to official information on the Blue card: [http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/](http://www.bluecard- eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/)

<comment><USER24> The threshold for a blue card work permit as a developer has been lowered to 36.192 Euro a few months ago. You just need to get a proper work contract to be eligible for the visa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Becoming a refugee is a bad idea. Get a schengen visa, go to a country like Latvia, show them your references, bank statement with decent documented income, open a company (costs 1000-2000 EUR), and get a residence visa. Takes a few months but you can live most of that time on a 90/180 schengen visa, maybe leaving out 1 or max 2 months which you can spend at home or in a non- schengen European country like Cyprus, which is also close to you that helps. Then get your residence visa and go to Germany - that will not be entirely legal (you'll be supposed not to spend outside of a country where you visa is more than half of your time), but with no borders within Schengen, it is hard to check, and if you don't want to get officially hired for a fulltime job in Berlin (which is hardly your intention), you'll have no problem.

You can do that right in Germany, but may take more cash and time, you will always be able to switch a country once your startup gets going and you are more relaxed cash-wise.

And yes, being a refugee sucks. Forget it.

<comment><USER25> Caveat: i have no first-hand experience of getting a residence visa in Germany. It might turn out simpler than i fear, with other posters hinting that. I did that in Cyprus and Czech Republic though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I would also advise against Germany, one of the problems is that people who seek asylum in Germany are not allowed to work. ( I know nothing about other countries, but if you work for an Australian company, it would perhaps best to ask them for help.)

Good luck and stay safe.

<comment><USER27> I would follow yk's advice: it is much easier to get a Visum when you are invited to work for a company. Is asking the startup for employment an option?

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> There's a lot of bad information here on Berlin. For context, I'm a non-EU software developer that lives in Berlin and now has permanent residence, as is my girlfriend.

Germany is actually one of the easiest countries to get an immigrant work visa for. I would recommend skipping seeking asylum. There's a large enough job market in Berlin for developers that the work visa route will almost certainly be the fastest and least painful for you.

If you have a university degree, you should be able to get a Blue Card. In fact, Germany will give you a 6 month visa to visit the country and look for a job. Since you're already working remotely, finding money to support yourself during that time should not be difficult.

The salary requirement that others list here is incorrect for software developers. The typical Blue Card minimum required salary is €46,400/year, however, software development is an in-demand job ("Mangelberuf"), which lowers the minimum to €39,192/year, which is above the standard salary that you'd find for development positions at Berlin startups.

If you go the Blue Card route, you'll be eligible for permanent residence in 3 years.

If you don't have a university degree, you're still in pretty good shape. Then, in practice, what you need is a job offer (with a contract). Your residence permit, prior to getting permanent residence, will be connected to your specific job at a specific company (though in practice this just means you have to go to the foreigner's office to apply for a new visa when you change jobs). This was the old system that I went through (before the Blue Card was introduced, which my girlfriend used). Basically if you have a job offer and a reasonable salary, you're next to guaranteed to be able to get a work permit. I've never heard of a software developer having their request denied.

However, that system is not nearly as streamlined, so you actually usually need to already be in Berlin to apply for it. I would recommend finding any excuse you can to come to Berlin on a visitors' visa (language course, conference, whatever) and stay as long as you can. I think you'd be able to find a job and kick off the work permit stuff in a 2 month timeframe.

Going that route you're able to apply for permanent residence after 5 years, though it's a slightly nicer version of permanent residence than the one you get via the Blue Card route since it's transferable to all EU countries except the UK and Ireland.

Official things in Germany will naturally be mostly in German, but the startup scene functions primarily in English. It's totally normal for job interviews and work meetings / emails / etc. to be in English.

If you have questions on this stuff feel free to drop me a line. My email address is in my profile.

<comment><USER8> its not as easy as you picture it, especially for Syrians.

I wanted to send my sister (Syrian) to continue her education in medicine, the German embassy in Syria completely rejected the application.

I tried in Dubai, they asked me to open a bank account for her in Germany, all banks refused to do so. I had eventually to find workarounds (through some powerful friends) and I was able finally to open that account in Wiesbaden.

Now my sister has an official residency visa and she went to open an account in Berlin, but again all banks rejected her request because she is Syrian.

Racism can be really ugly.

<comment><USER29> There are a ton of embargoes and sanctions against Syria from both the US and the EU.

Don't assume racism when the problem is government.

<comment><USER8> That's true in the case of USA, ex: you can never get a credit card processor to accept your application, source forge/google code/ google apps are entirely blocked etc ..

We tried to make a change by starting this :

[http://www.change.org/petitions/united-states-government- lif...](http://www.change.org/petitions/united-states-government-lift-some-of- the-sanctions-on-syria-that-are-affecting-the-people)

in the case of Germany I think Government are not the bad people here, they have actually tried to make it easier for Syrian. but most the people who work at embassies / banks etc .. make it impossible for Syrians abroad to reach Germany.

I have friends who managed to get their visas after filing lawsuits against those embassies, but those who only have german friends/relatives who understand and know the German law.

<comment><USER29> [http://www.sanctionswiki.org/Syria#EU](http://www.sanctionswiki.org/Syria#EU)

That's a big legal minefield to deal with just to sign up some small accounts from individuals.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I think you are likely to have greater luck on a working visa than as an 'asylum' seeker (which European governments consider themselves flooded by, and you'll have to prove specific persecution in your home country rather than skills in your job). What you need is the right visa which your skills can qualify you for and will lead to permanent residency or citizenship. This will vary by country. A difficulty with Germany may be that a lot of the process will be hard to understand if you can't read German.

Good luck to you. I (white Australian) visited Syria a few years ago. Every piece of news I hear now from Syria just saddens me.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I am not sure what would be the "best" next step, but I want to leave Syria asap. Planning to move to Iraq first then I will go for the next destination. As far as discussed seems I dont need asylum because I do have some skill set that can be fit into a job market. But will I be able to live there for couple of years? This is getting crazy here and I dont know how long I will have the internet connection and other to work in my remote job(though my employer is very helpful). Seems next couple of days will make my way for at least next couple of years of my life.

<comment><USER31> I would advise against the asylum route for all the reasons that others have already mentioned.

What you could do right now is to travel to Turkey and apply for a German tourist visa there. Once you are in Germany and out of harm's way you can think about your next steps.

This page says that the German embassy in Ankara or the Istanbul consulate will process your visa application while the Damascus office remains closed: [http://www.ankara.diplo.de/Vertretung/ankara/de/06__Visa/Vis...](http://www.ankara.diplo.de/Vertretung/ankara/de/06__Visa/Visum__Irak/Visum__SYR__S.html)

Here are the tourist visa guidelines in arabic: [http://www.beirut.diplo.de/contentblob/3951508/Daten/3401582...](http://www.beirut.diplo.de/contentblob/3951508/Daten/3401582/merkblatt_besuchsreise.pdf)

I wish you the best of luck!

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I don't know if I'm late on this or not. Anyway, you may want to go to Thailand for some time. Live on tourist Visa, renew them in neighbouring countries while enjoying time off. You could easily spend about a year without running into any Visa problem and work remotely for the Australian company. There are a couple of startups there ([http://playbasis.com](http://playbasis.com) for example) and many startup guys spend a sizeable amount of time working from there while enjoying life. I suppose it would give you time to prepare for your next move. I can help with anything Thailand-related if you need (though I'm back in Europe now). As I see things, Europe is not the immigration heaven it used to be although there's room for skilled workers due recent policies in most countries. Either way, it won't be simple.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks.

<comment><USER32> Hey. Good news:

[http://tribune.com.pk/story/599235/sweden-grants-blanket- asy...](http://tribune.com.pk/story/599235/sweden-grants-blanket-asylum-to- syrian-refugees/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> As an asylum-seeker you are not allowed to work in Germany. You will be "stored" in a camp and are forced to stay there until you can move back to Syria. Better go to a Scandinavian country, where you will be treated as a human beeing.

<comment><USER34> As a german I am ashamed to read this, because I have to agree. Embarrassing.

<comment><USER35> I used to live next to a shelter like that, and the thing is a total shithole. Walls destroyed, stinks like hell, major crime around the shelter. A week before I left a 11 year old girl was gang-raped by the asylees. I do not blame germans who decide it's best for them to just send the asylum seekers back to their own countries.

<comment><USER34> I disagree.

The main principle of humanitarian help is very valuable. We shall not abandon our core values, just because some people go ahead and cheat on us. Yes, some do. I know that and I don't like that either.

But.

In general every person on the planet should be able to live peacefully and in dignity and if leaders in other countries do not build a system that is capable of providing this for all inhabitants, we should give them asylum and protect them from harassment.

Regarding those who are leaving their country and seeking asylum only for economical reasons, trying to escape poverty and a bleak future prospect, we shall not forget that a lot of our wealth is build on exploiting other countries. Our wealth is built on a system, that lets money and goods flow while disallowing the same freedom for people.

No, there is no excuse for rape and there never can be.

But before we judge these people we should always reconsider: Why are they here? What is their situation in the country where they come from? What kind of chance do they have in their country? What kind of chance do they have here? Do we give them a chance to behave and act well?

I refuse to follow the growing mob that does not reflect on the global situation, that does not differentiate and treats every foreigner the same, that suspects that every refugee is a criminal, dirty and trying to rape our children.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Germany is difficult, but not impossible. As an alternative you could try not to get asylum, but a blue card (EU). Unfortunately you'll need a university degree + yearly incoming in 2013 of 46.400 OR uni degree + special demand in germany (IT is such an area) + yearly income of 36.192.

The good thing is, according to my research the income requirement is floating. In other terms, you just need an income which is "usual for your region".

Of course, you would need a visa too.

What I am trying to suggest is you search an potential employer first and ask him to deal with the visa/eu card details. That way you wouldn't get the german citizenship in first glance; not sure if you really aim at that or if you would like to return after the war.

Anyway you can reach citizenship after living 8 years in germany (please note there are some restrictions, like no criminal acts, accepting liberal and democratic orders and so on).

I believe with your skills you might have a good chance to find a position in the Berlin or even Munich scene. Just prepare a CV and try to contact as many startups as you can. Look out for guides like this: [http://www.berlinstartup.de/startup- guide.php](http://www.berlinstartup.de/startup-guide.php) [http://berlinstartupjobs.com/](http://berlinstartupjobs.com/)

Good luck and take care mate.

Links: [http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/nn_566780/Dienststellen/besonde...](http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/nn_566780/Dienststellen/besondere- Dst/ZAV/arbeiten-in-deutschland/DE/amz/merkblaetter/amz-arbeitsmarktzulassung- info-an-ag.html)

[http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/nn_616850/Navigation/Dienststel...](http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/nn_616850/Navigation/Dienststellen/besondere- Dst/ZAV/arbeiten-in-deutschland/DE/amz/migration-check/migration-check- nav.html)

(german, despite they aim for migrants. Send them to potential employers).

<comment><AUTHOR> One of the reason for choosing Germany as some of my friends are living there, though I dont know will it help or not. And after the discussion seems its better not to get asylum.

<comment><USER37> I've reached out the guy who runs berlinstartupjobs.com and asked him to ping his database of employers. Do check it out as well. All the best.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> German immigration lawyers who specialise in software developers. I can recommend them. [http://www.vpmk.de/](http://www.vpmk.de/)

Berlin is very welcoming to qualified software devs. Best of luck!

<comment><USER39> Is it really? Would love to work in Berlin for a while.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Hey Arnold, there are several ways and I don't know--given the current situation that you're not the only one--which works best. So let me give you a series of suggestions to follow up:

First, see the German Foreign Office's FAQ and visa regulations:

[http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/Infoservice/FAQ/Uebersicht...](http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/Infoservice/FAQ/Uebersicht_node.html)

[http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/EinreiseUndAufenthalt/Visa...](http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/EinreiseUndAufenthalt/Visabestimmungen_node.html)

Since many are coming as refugees from Syria, it could be an idea to apply for a regular visa, either for working or studying in Germany. Note that the German mission in Damascus is closed and you have to contact any embassy or mission outside Syria. They suggest using the embassy in Beirut. Problem is that you need to translate all paper stuff to German and I can't estimate the time it takes. Usually it's 2-10 days for visits under 90 days, it can take longer (even months) for visits over 90 days or working permits.

If you come for work, you need an invitation from an employer. But I don't know how long the handling takes with the mission (they have to okay it first), especially since the Damascus mission is down.

Perhaps you qualify for the EU Blue Card (skilled immigrants):

[http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/Infoservice/FAQ/ArbeitenLe...](http://www.auswaertiges- amt.de/EN/Infoservice/FAQ/ArbeitenLebenDeutschland/01-aaBlue%20Card%20english.html?nn=479790)

[http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/](http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/)

If that's an option, look into the conditions for studying in Germany.

Wish you all the best. Tough times.

</comment><comment><USER41> I don't really have anything to offer but I do want to wish you good luck, I hope you get out safely.

<comment><USER42> Same here. Best of luck to you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> An intermediate option might be moving to Lebanon temporarily. It is still relatively (to syria) safe. As a Syrian, you dont need visa or residency permit. You can continue your work from here and figure out your next move; namely apply for immigration visas here-and-there.

</comment><comment><USER44> I work at a berlin startup that is interested in the skillset that you posted. Send me a mail to irit.applebaum {at} gmail.com and ill try to help you.

</comment><comment><USER45> Don't waste any time, get out of the country asap on regular touristic visa. Usually it means you can stay "on a vacation" for up to 30 days at once and 3 months in total (you just cross the border and return), which should be enough to see what's going on with Syria. Legally you can't work, but if you already have an online job no one will stop you to continue working. If the war starts you can then obtain the refugee status in that country on the basis that you can't return to your homeland. The refugee status doesn't mean that you have to stay in that country, as an educated refugee you can apply for a work visa in other countries through their embassies.

</comment><comment><USER46> If one EU state offers you asylum, which shouldn't be too hard because your country is notoriously dangerous, then you can work anywhere in the EU. So you could get asylum from Italy or France, then move to Berlin when you have your papers, which takes several months during which you can't have a declared job (in France, they may make sure you don't work by sending you to a transit camp, which is basically a jail).

If you tell them you're an experimented software engineer, it may be much faster to get a work visa than asylum. Ask for this work visa to each embassy in Damascus.

Also, Morrocoan cities are growing like crazy. There may be some business to do there and they may give visas more easily.

</comment><comment><USER47> Well, everyone else has given an idea about why you shouldn't go to Berlin.

In case you have a powerful reason for still going there, a few quick points: English is not _that_ common, but is far more common than in the neighboring cities - you probably won't be super comfortable, but you'll survive. If you are on a budget and/or planning to live on whatever money you already have, Berlin is much cheaper than any of the other countries mentioned. There's also a very large Turkish community, in case that means something for you.

Keep in mind all the negative comments mentioned, though. This points are valid when you are a regular citizen, but as a refugee they might not apply.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'm not an expert. But if you are seeking asylum, you will not be allowed to work for about a year. The biggest problem with Asylum in Germany is probably how to enter Germany before any of the other countries between Germany and Syria...

You might try a "blue card", if you can get a good salary. But I am not sure how easy that is from Syria at the moment...

Also keep in mind that islamophobia in Germany is rising across the board. And no, my fellow Germans generally make no distinction between copts, syrian christians or muslims.

</comment><comment><USER49> I would take any option because safety trumps analysis paralysis. It may also possible to build up to working remotely for US-based startups, 37signals or github style. And if you happen to later find a place with low expenses and good healthcare, that would be even better.

      - Canada (Vancouver especially)
      - <USER2>
      - <USER3>
      - <USER4>
      - Germany
      - <USER5>
      - <USER6>

The US is out for USG failure and lack of universal healthcare.

</comment><comment><USER50> I'm in Berlin startup scene and I can tell you that is quite easy to get a working permit as a software dev, basically only thing you need besides your passport is an employment contract with more than 33k€ per year. (search term: blue card)

Don't go the asylum way if you have the software skills. Blue card is much easier and a safe bet.

The processing can take up to 6-8 weeks though…

And as for language, at least in Berlin tech companies, english is the language of business…

</comment><comment><USER51> It would be easier to escape to Turkey first. Later on you can try your chances with European countries via their embassies in Ankara or Istanbul.

</comment><comment><USER52> You're welcome to come to Israel, we have a booming startup scene here.

<comment><USER53> Might be a bit hard as a Syrian citizen...

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> German here. I think asylum isn't what you want. If the company in Australia that you worked for can not help you get in touch with companies in Germany. Tell them what you can do for them and about your situation. A lot companies are used to employ IT professionals from all over the world and know how to do get you here.

</comment><comment><USER55> i feel your pain. its unfortunate to be Syria now, i heard recently Sweden is approving asylum applications in the EU on a smaller scale. call the embassy to double check.

anyhow forward me your CV and email and let's connect, tech-wise we are recruiting node.js - backend dev if this could help. here's my contact: firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER56> You might find this Wikipedia article helpful in case you change your mind about Germany: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_ci...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_citizens)

</comment><comment><USER57> Hi I will update this post, but I think you have several options. Try to get to any country you can that is in Schengen, once you are in you can carry on your freelance work, apply for working visa and go to Berlin for interviews. If you find a company to work for they will help you out, almost every country is in demand for devs.

I theory, I believe you may just come to Europe and if you state at the border that you seek an asylum they can't refuse you ( according to international laws, until your asylum is decided on ) and then take it from there.

Turkey is the closest country you don't need a visa for.

I will make an update but in any case don't double-check everything yourself, those are few things I vaguely remember from school.

</comment><comment><USER58> Manwin Montreal (pornhub,brazzers, basically all the relevant porn sites) is always looking for people. From what I can tell we ship in a lot of guys from other countries. The HR team seems to be on top of that.

try it out, we might be able to bring you in.

manwin.com/careers

select the montreal office :)

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER59> If you want to get a job in Berlin quickly, post it here:

[https://www.facebook.com/groups/159595270791268](https://www.facebook.com/groups/159595270791268)

Berlin is one of the most peaceful cities I ever lived in.

</comment><comment><USER60> We're looking for a Python hacker in a personalization & analytics startup Filmaster.TV. We're based in Warsaw, Poland. It shouldn't be a problem getting a work permit. We're already hiring an American guy and we've been through the procedure. Read about the job and the company here: [http://filmaster.tv/jobs.html](http://filmaster.tv/jobs.html) and if you're interested, happy to talk on hangout.

</comment><comment><USER61> This is one of the best uses of Ask HN I've seen in a long time.

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER62> I think if western countries are too hard for you you should try some eastern Europe ones. They have few if any request for asylum. Also visas and permits might be easier to get. You might do it faster, as there are no lines, and after move on to your wanted country. Once you are in EU, borders are pretty much open. although do your research before, I sadly cant give more advice at the moment

</comment><comment><USER63> Just as a heads up, Sweden have decided to give anyoneleaving Syria permanent residence because of whats happening.

The info is in Swedish but maybe you want to Google Translate it or something.

[http://www.svt.se/nyheter/sverige/alla-syrier-far- permanent-...](http://www.svt.se/nyheter/sverige/alla-syrier-far-permanent- uppehallstillstand)

</comment><comment><USER64> 1) Get a job in the EU. 2) Have your employer work through all the necessary hassles for you to move there from their end. It will be much easier than you trying to do this in Syria and most European employers will have experience with this.

I don't know about Germany but I know in Amsterdam booking.com is always looking for smart folks.

</comment><comment><USER65> We're a Berlin-based tech company that has successfully hired programmers from the Middle East, so we have some experiences with the Blue Card visa process and helping with to relocate to Berlin. The good news is, we're still actively recruiting so please get in touch if we can help you: email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER66> Get EU citizenship from the nearest EU member Bulgaria. Lots of Syrian refugees get EU IDs here. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER67> I am no expert on asylum situations, but my impression is that the first country in the European zone that you enter is the one that decides which asylum rules you'll follow. You need to speak to a lawyer. Sorry I can't provide any more insight than this. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER68> 1) Get on a plane to UK 2) cut your passport into very small parts and get rid of just after landing 3) ???? (don't tell where are you from) 4) Profit after 3-4 months waiting for asylum.

At least that was standard tactics from people from arabic countries. Never say where are you from!

<comment><USER13> IMHO, it is easier to follow the rules. If you have a genuine need for asylum, then the UK is obliged, under international law, to offer it.

What the UK is not obliged to do is put up with people who try to pull a fast one; and there are a lot of those around, moresthepity.

If you present yourself honestly to the UKBA officials, with a genuine need for asylum, with relevant documentation, telling the truth, and not trying to be dodgy in any way, they will (in all probability) grant you the right to remain in the UK for a limited time.

Work with them, not against them, and they will work with you. If you have a genuine case, they are there to help you.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people that they see are (very bad) liars, so a lot of asylum-seekers get rejected, on the basis that nothing that they say can be trusted. Of course, they have the right to appeal that judgement, but if you lie, you will get caught out, and the appeal will be rejected.

<comment><USER68> or they will put you in temporary house and send back to syria just so you can be presented to officials.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Might be worth contacting these guys for advice: [http://www.deutschsyrischegesellschaft.de/](http://www.deutschsyrischegesellschaft.de/) (I just googled my way to this, so I don't know how helpful they are)

</comment><comment><USER70> Your best solution might be to move to whatever country will be most likely to accept your asylum request (and preferably will let you continue to remotely work) and then apply for a work visa to a country with more of a tech scene.

</comment><comment><USER71> [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee- influx-r...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee-influx- reveals-german-asylum-policy-shortcomings-a-919488.html)

</comment><comment><USER72> Have you tried the UN Refugee Agency? [http://www.unhcr.org/cgi- bin/texis/vtx/home](http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home)

<comment><AUTHOR> Not yet, thanks for the link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER73> Asylum and Work are 2 different things and in germany they accept only one. 1\. Asylum and you cant work. 2\. Work, but for that you need many many papers and time.

</comment><comment><USER43> Came across this today. [http://m.thelocal.se/50030/20130903/](http://m.thelocal.se/50030/20130903/)

</comment><comment><USER74> I have posted link to this thread in Polish Startup Scene group, maybe we can help. Getting a work permit in Poland is not hard and Germany is close by.

</comment><comment><USER75> Good luck mate hope things will work out fine for you.

</comment><comment><USER76> Might be a silly question for some reason but why don't you try and get your Australian company to sponsor you for immigration to Australia?

</comment><comment><USER77> I really hope this isn't a scam. I would recommend heading to Northern European countries, specifically the Netherlands and Sweden.

</comment><comment><USER78> I'm no expert. But your chances in Brittain are a lot higher i presume (no passport even required).

But you should check up on that first though :)

<comment><USER79> It depends from where you come from. For Syrian citizens visa is required for Brattain. In fact, for all European countries it is required.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_c...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Syrian_citizens)

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> Sweden just decided to grant permanent asylum to anyone who decides to leave Syria. I thought that could be interesting.

</comment><comment><USER80> You should try Ireland. There's a plenty of IT jobs and it's easier to come in than the rest of Europe.

<comment><USER81> Not easy for non-EU citizens, unemployment rate is very high. To be able to move there you have to find a job with 60K salary.

</comment></comment><comment><USER82> Independent of all the visa advice, keep yourself safe!

</comment><comment><USER83> Try and stay away from England, they'll tax you right down to the amount of hairs you have on your nuts.

</comment><comment><USER84> I'd be curious what a fellow hacker on the other side of the world thinks about the current situation.

</comment><comment><USER85> Skip Germany and go to Sweden or England, where people are more than happy to speak English, and there is already many Syrians in Sweden, especially in Sodertalje. Sweden will accept you based on your skills far more easily than Germany, all you need is to find a job, and right now the market is open for a guy of your skills - programmers are in high demand. Look around on various Sweden/Stockholm job posting sites, from there you get the visa and safety. The startup scene is also nice.

As someone else mentioned in Germany as asylum seeker you arent allowed to work. You can come to Sweden and seek asylum and you'd be allowed to work, and when you do sign a contract then you can get a permit to stay and cancel the asylum request. PM me and Ill give you names of good companies that are on the lookout to hire.

As others said, to be able to apply for asylum in EU country X, you have to first set foot in that country X and not in another one, so, go to Turkey or Israel and then fly to Sweden from there.

Sweden is also more flexible, its a country where they look out for the best interest of you as a human (mostly), so if you come to Sweden and continue working for Australian company - it is enough to get a work permit, all you have to do is prove that you earn more than minimum amount, I believe around 1500usd and pay taxes, to be accepted.

As a war refugee my self, I urge you strongly to leave Syria now, for the love of god no matter the price, buy those tickets and get the hell out of there and far away as possible, Sweden, Canada, Australia. (Not Germany, France, Italy, USA, Turkey they all suck.)

Your life is all you got, dont waste it on that war. Take with your closest family if you can.

<comment> the-kenny I approve this too. Don't go to Germany.

As a German citizen I really hate to say this, but recently there has been a hitch in the media where there were protests by neonazi groups in front of asylum homes. Sadly, there are still people who see asylum seekers as potential job-stealers, showing them nothing but hate and would like to throw them all out, regardless of their skills.

This is _absolutely_ not the general opinion in Germany, but at least _some_ people think so.

<comment><USER86> The same is true of England. We have the EDL who are a bunch of racist morons. But they are a tiny, despised minority, and certainly shouldn't deter anyone from seeking asylum here.

<comment><USER87> It's not quite the same. Apart from the fact that the EDL are not neonazis, over 100 asylum seekers were killed by racists in the last 20 years in Germany. Some of the bigger events were racist riots in Rostock [1] and Hoyerswerda [2], and arson attacks on asylum seeker homes in Solingen [3] and Lubeck.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_of_Rostock- Lichtenhagen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_of_Rostock-Lichtenhagen)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_of_Hoyerswerda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_of_Hoyerswerda)

[3] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen_arson_attack_of_1993](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen_arson_attack_of_1993)

<comment><USER88> Do you have a citation for the 100 deaths? The number seems rather high - <USER7> the three events you cite there were "only" five deaths (killed in a fire).

<comment><USER87> The "Amadeu Antonio Stiftung" has a list [1] of 183 deaths after 1990, where they describe the circumstances of each death. There is also a German wikipedia article that discusses different statistics [2].

Sorry, both sources are in German. Maybe Google translate will help a little?

[1] [http://www.mut-gegen-rechte-gewalt.de/news/chronik-der- gewal...](http://www.mut-gegen-rechte-gewalt.de/news/chronik-der- gewalt/todesopfer-rechtsextremer-und-rassistischer-gewalt-seit-1990/)

[2] [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesopfer_rechtsextremer_Gewal...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesopfer_rechtsextremer_Gewalt_in_Deutschland)

<comment><USER88> Thanks!

I'd say that Germany is still pretty safe, but I admit that there are places that even I as a German feel uneasy about - mostly the rural areas in former East German states.

Also the way asylum seekers are treated here seems pretty bad. But that refers to the way the government handles the issue, not to the attitude of the general population.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> Fight for your homeland, don't just run away and pass off your problems to others.

Also encourage Americans to stop their drone-crazed, war-hungry, spy-happy, immigration-positive President (or at least to change his mind).

War should be used when there are serious threats. Lately, the USA and Europe have been using war to overthrow the powerful so that mass culture can take over.

This is culturally akin to forcibly installing a McDonald's on every street corner.

<comment><USER90> It's easy to say that from the comfort of your home it's quite different when you might face dying in a crossfire or in another drone attack.

<comment><USER89> I'm facing the collapse of my homeland and intervening. Are you in denial, or part of the solution?</comment></comment></comment>


Bouncers using Facebook to verify IDs - <AUTHOR> http://www.dailydot.com/news/bouncers-facebook-id/

<comment><USER2> The computer is being used in so many ways to extend our abilities, I can see no other possibility than to regard it as part of our extended phenotype. — Steven Pemberton

<http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1386></comment>