MacOS Caches Data from Encrypted Hard Drives - <AUTHOR> https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x30.html <comment><USER2> > _But in a recent macOS version, Apple has added a new feature to Finder > called QuickLook. This feature allows users to hold down the Space key while > having a file selected and view an image-like preview of the document 's > content._

QuickLook was added back in 2007, to OS X 10.5 Leopard: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Look](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Look)

<comment><USER3> This is one of my favorite features for sifting through a large number of pictures.

<comment><USER4> I love it too and was disappointed to read recently on HN it's not easy to do on Linux, as I intend to switch to Ubuntu on a desktop soon. If anyone knows the best way to set it up I'd like to hear it.

However, it's become a pain lately anyway in that it doesn't work for images [maybe over a certain size?] stored in iCloud (unless it's already downloaded) which includes the desktop folder and therefore screenshots (because letting you store screnshots anywhere else by default would be logical and we can't have that). Nor does it show anything to indicate this, it just appears to randomly work or not work. I wish they'd send a lower res version for previews, or something, as more and more stuff moves to the cloud.

<comment><USER5> I'm fairly sure the default file explorer in Ubuntu/Fedora (nautilus) offers a preview spacebar function but I don't use it enough to know whether it's limited to images.

I haven't looked to see whether there's a keyboard shortcut to jump to the next image. It's not up/down arrow.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Unless I'm misunderstanding what is happening here, it stores the thumbnail cache in a subdirectory of `$TMPDIR` which at least on my machine is `/var/folders/.......`.

So it would seems this is only a concern if you had a secondary drive that was encrypted but a root volume (or some other volume mounted to `/var/folders`) that was unencrypted.

I don't think this is much of an issue TBH, if you're concerned about data access your root volume should be encrypted already.

<comment><USER7> > So it would seems this is only a concern if you had a secondary drive that > was encrypted but a root volume (or some other volume mounted to > `/var/folders`) that was unencrypted.

Not really. It's also a concern if:

* the encryption to your root volume is broken somehow (either through one of the APFS encryption bugs, you've been compelled to hand over the keys, etc.), or

* the secondary drive is not available or was destroyed,

* etc.

<comment><USER8> If the first one is a problem, you have much bigger problems. Not sure what the second concern you're describing is. Most of the scenarios I can think of where this is behaviour is bad are not really the sort of thing FDE is supposed to solve. Maybe there are others but I haven't seen them described in this thread.

<comment><USER7> > If the first one is a problem, you have much bigger problems.

Not necessarily. Your primary drive could have been otherwise clean of things you wanted to hide. If you have data you need to keep safe, full disk encryption isn't a panacea that allows your opsec to get sloppy in other areas.

> Most of the scenarios I can think of where this is behaviour is bad are not > really the sort of thing FDE is supposed to solve.

I agree, I was responding to a comment that also said this:

>>> I don't think this is much of an issue TBH, if you're concerned about data access your root volume should be encrypted already.

<comment><USER8> If the encryption on your root drive is broken or breakable, it's game over for that kind of system. The scenario 'I'm plugging in random encrypted drives into my system which is itself not encrypted' is not a sane one any OS maker is going to spend time mitigating. Your editor could have left stuff in a backup. The file contents might be sitting in swap. You copied the file over and forgot to delete it. Or you deleted it but not securely. Etc, etc, etc.

As I said, I can't think of a non-contrived scenario in which this is an issue and to me, the one you're describing is strictly in the contrived category.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It should be noted that using FDE software like the built-in Filevault2 mitigates this leak.

<comment><USER10> it does? the entire premise is that this leaks encrypted data

<comment><USER9> Yes, it does. If you read through the researcher's post, they have an encrypted volume (VeraCrypt-style) which they mount on an otherwise unencrypted filesystem. Data can leak from inside the encrypted volume, to the cache location outside the encrypted volume.

If you're using Filevault2, the entire hard disk is encrypted, including the cache location.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There are so many other things that could leak besides thumbnails:

When you opened that image from an encrypted volume in an image viewer portions of the memory could have been written to swap.

All kinds of things will be logged to system log files: what programs you invoked, who knows what else.

Opening an encrypted volume on an unencrypted computer is just asking for trouble.

If you really need security you should open it on a fresh fully encrypted install of your OS that you dispose after.

</comment><comment><USER12> Caches it where, on the root filesystem? Which is encrypted by default since... ages?

<comment><USER13> It's not encrypted by default. FDE is something you have to enable.

<comment><USER14> It's the default in the macOS installer. You have to uncheck a check box to turn it off.

<comment><USER15> You don't see an installer when you buy a new Mac. I just installed 5 new computers in an office, and none of them had a mechanism for enabling FileVault other than going into sysprefs and turning it on myself.

<comment><USER16> Wow, I'm actually surprised this is true. I didn't believe you, except I went into System Preferences on my new Mac and saw that FileVault wasn't enabled. That greatly surprises me because I've definitely seen the FileVault FDE option, with it being on by default, in the setup wizard before.

Does anyone know where/when this occurs? If you install macOS from scratch on a computer?

<comment><USER14> As others have pointed out, it seems that FileVault is not enabled by default on new Macs. You have to go to System Preferences and find the option enable it.

However, when running the macOS installer, either when installing a fresh copy of macOS or when performing an upgrade, the default is to turn FileVault on unless you uncheck it.

I guess there are valid reasons why Apple don't ship new Macs with FileVault enabled from the factory. But it is strange that it doesn't at least prompt you / encourage you to enable it in the initial setup wizard, like the macOS installer does.

<comment><USER5> > _I guess there are valid reasons why Apple don 't ship new Macs with > FileVault enabled from the factory._

Should we assume that when it could also be likely there's no good reason? Especially given common practices like this - which I also experienced when I had my entire 2016 MBP in for a battery (and therefore full topcase) replacement: [https://www.troyhunt.com/apples-desensitisation-of-the- human...](https://www.troyhunt.com/apples-desensitisation-of-the-human-race- to-fundamental-security-practices/)

(In own my case, after questioning, I gave them a non-admin test account after I modified ~/ permissions away from 744 - yet, it was _I_ who felt like the crazy one for not simply handing over all my active browser/email login sessions. Imagine what a great attack vector that would be for most Apple customers.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> but what did you expect, that macos can magically determine which mount point is encrypted or not? what about "sensitive" SMB/NFS/SSHFS mounts?

<comment><USER18> I would expect it to store the thumbnails together with the files. Then again, this is Apple we're talking about...

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> historically there have been _a lot_ of jpg/photo album/image thumnail/image viewing and browsing software packages that autogenerate tiny thumbnail files. I've seen it as far back as 1997 and on Windows, Linux and on OSX. The main difference as I see it is that most of those put the tiny thumbnails in the same directory as the images they were browsing. In this case if you have an encrypted drive mounted the thumbnails are going somewhere else on a volume that may not necessarily be full disk encryption.

</comment><comment><USER20> Yes, it's a security risk, if having an encrypted drive is your only security measure.

Encrypted PDFs don't show their contents in QuickLook (just a lock icon).

QuickLook is useful though, especially when used from the command line. I use it to convert DOC and PPT files to HTML, and then to TXT, without needing MS Office.

[https://macscripter.net/viewtopic.php?pid=191939#p191939](https://macscripter.net/viewtopic.php?pid=191939#p191939)

</comment><comment><USER21> This is to be expected on essentially any OS.

<comment><USER22> Is it? Couldn't the previews be stored on the same volume as the original? Windows stores "thumbs.db" in the same directory as the original image.

<comment><USER17> and that's how you end up with annoying shit like __MACOSX and ._caches folders everywhere

<comment><USER23> You don't like sacrificing 1% of your SD Card space to Finder?

<comment><USER24> It's not that the files take up space, it's that they're there.

Have a look of how many repositories on GitHub which include a completely unrelated .DS_Store file: [https://github.com/search?q=filename%3A.DS_Store](https://github.com/search?q=filename%3A.DS_Store)

<comment><USER23> I'm annoyed equally by the space they take up and their presence.

We pulled an old camera out to donate the other day and I popped the SD card in my laptop to see what might be on the card. It was a 1GB card "full" of photos my kid took on one of our vacations. I say "full" because there was a 125mbs of files Finder left wasting space on it.

That's easily 25 photos that weren't taken. What shots did we miss because the SD card was "full"?

<comment><USER24> Wow, that's 12.5% of the card, not 1%. I had no idea Finder's files would get that large.

<comment><USER25> A 1GB SD card is likely to be formatted with FAT16. Even a "one byte" file must take up 32KB in the file system because that's just how big the clusters will be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> More low SnR spam from Patrick Wardle.

</comment><comment><USER27> That rm command won't clean anything you would need to use shred first.

<comment><USER28> You're right that rm won't be enough, and the "Success!" isn't really a success.

But likely shred won't even work, because SSDs overwrite other blocks when you perform a write operation, for wear leveling. I'm not sure if there's any hope of erasing something from an SSD besides physically destroying the SSD.

<comment><USER29> >I'm not sure if there's any hope of erasing something from an SSD besides physically destroying the SSD.

I was under the impression that TRIM/UNMAP would erase the flash blocks currently associated with some sectors, is that not the case?

<comment><USER28> Generally I don't believe that TRIM securely erases anything.

[https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/109916/does- the...](https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/109916/does-the-ata-trim- command-irrecoverably-delete-data-on-an-ssd)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Blogspam for:

[https://wojciechregula.blog/your-encrypted-photos-in- macos-c...](https://wojciechregula.blog/your-encrypted-photos-in-macos-cache/)

<comment><USER31> Thank you. We changed to that from [https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/apple/macos-breaks- you...](https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/apple/macos-breaks-your-opsec- by-caching-data-from-encrypted-hard-drives/).

Edit: actually the other original source it links to seems to have more information, so maybe we'll use that instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Is this vulnerability defeated if you use a APFS/HFS disk password that no specific OSX user accounts are authorized to bypass, as is the case when you encrypt the whole hard drive and then install OSX versus activating File Vault only on a per account basis? In other words, if I don't have the hard drive disk password, but I do have a single user account login/password, nothing is capable of being leaked in this case, correct?

As the Quicklook database is never decrypted unless you have the disk password in this case, I don't think it is, but would like validation of my thought process as it seems like this mostly pertains to mounted encrypted image files or non-system encrypted drives, not whole disk system drive encryption.

However, if you use something like the MacFort app that stores resting app program data (like your Photos Library file) in an encrypted disk image only decrypted/mounted when you open the Photos app itself (and provide proper password) and then is closed/unmounted immediately after the app that called for it is closed, is this vulnerability still valid? I'm thinking it is in this case, as the encrypted files are at one point mounted on the file system in an unencrypted state and QuickLook can then cache contents as described, but again, I'm curious for validation.

</comment><comment><USER33> Seems like a low quality article to me.

1\. If you have leaked data to an unencrypted partition, then simply deleting it will not hide it from forensics experts.

2\. There are many vectors in which an _application_ (because that is what we are talking about) can leak data to unexpected locations. This isn't even one of the more subtle ones, in fact it is expected, and probably present on every major os.

3\. The article baits fear mongering and conspiracies.

<comment><USER31> We changed the URL after this was posted.</comment></comment>


Dresden Codak - Great comics by Aaron Diaz - <AUTHOR> http://dresdencodak.com/

<comment><USER2> Hey Cosmohh this is probably no the right site to post that link.</comment>


The front end of an example full-stack app built using Vue and Node - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/TahaSh/vue-forum-app <comment><USER6> Friendly suggestion:

1\. Add the backend under same repo.

2\. Add a root _docker-compose.yml_ instead of sending interested party to "install backend".

      root
        | - <USER2>
           | - <USER5>
           | - ... code
           | - README.md
        | - <USER4>
           | - <USER5>
           | - ... code
           | - README.md
        | - .gitignore
        | - README.md
        | - docker-compose.yml

Thanks

<comment><USER7> I agree with suggestion #1 but what do you need to bring docker in for? That's way overkill. Just have the server side serve the Vue.js app on the main route.

<comment><USER8> I understand why people think Docker is overkill, but Docker is a simplified approach to the most "correct" way to build and deploy applications we've come up with so far.

Even though simple projects don't necessarily need Docker to work, they are 100 times better off using Docker than doing things by hand, because that alternative means they are only deploying once and never again (updates, new environment, dev/staging/prod) and that's just not true.

<comment><USER9> This, of course, sounds good in theory, but then you'll realize that Docker itself can break six ways from Sunday. Deployment should not be part of, or in any way linked to, code. I'm not sure why everyone's starting to bundle what is essentially dev-ops infrastructure with source. I have some old laptops where Docker doesn't even work, for example (due to a lack of VT-x). Why should that preclude me from a simple "yarn run" or whatever? It's insanity.

<comment><USER10> >Deployment should not be part of, or in any way linked to, code.

Why?

<comment><USER9> Because deployment tends to be very context-sensitive[1], but code should almost never be.

[1] Are you running this in the cloud? On Google? On AWS? Cloud functions? A containerized VM? Maybe you're running it on an old Mac in your basement. If you're deploying on Linux, you're using lots of bash scripts but -- whoopsie -- those won't work on Windows.

<comment><USER6> [1] You've basically listed the very reason I'm using docker. It makes my code deployment agnostic. Bash "setup" files? been there. I write Dockerfiles.

I think that's the _only_ thing I'm strongly opinionated about as a developer.

\--- EDIT

This is a classic. Reading the backend "how to run" guide I see:

      DATABASE=<your-mongodb-connection-string>
      PORT=5000
      SERVER_URL=http://localhost:5000

This should settle any debate about docker being "overkill". Developers are notoriously reluctant to install things on their dev machines. As-is this repo has non-trivial setup friction which will reduce # of potential users/testers.

TL;DR: _docker-compose up_

<comment><USER9> Like I mentioned, I have laptops that can't even _run_ Docker. I've had to fix CMOS/BIOS settings to be able to run Docker on my main dev box. Also, running Docker can sometimes mean not being able to run VMWare (due to virtualization settings). Not to mention that version controlling Docker repos is a huge pain in the butt, we've had to call our dev ops guy in the middle of the night because some random dependency changed some version that broke something down the line.

Pretending that using Docker is as easy as "docker-compose up" is either disingenuous, or you simply haven't used Docker as much as I have. Either way, I still contend that Dockerfiles have no room in a source code repository.

<comment><USER6> I'm in agreement with you that docker on windows is less enjoyable an experience.

btw enabling VT-x is required for other tools as well (Android Studio for device emulation).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> y-c-o-m-b Nice work! Just goes to show how clean and readable Vue code is. I've done enterprise development with React, Angular, and older stuff like JQuery. Vue is by far my favorite for its ease of us, minimalist footprint, and readability.

In a real world situation, I would attach id attributes to the elements for automated QA testing purposes.

</comment><comment><USER11> I like Vue a lot, but then I discovered Blazor (.NET core + SignalR).

And now I am questioning the whole Javascript ecosystem.

With stacks like Vue and Node I always feel I have to do the same work twice. Double models, validation in the front end and validation in the back end, and so on.

With frameworks like Blazor you are much more productive. And I believe this will be the future of developing SPAs.

<comment><USER12> Reminds me a bit of how we thought about Vaadin or GWT...

<comment><USER13> Apart from using WebAssembly, is Blazor very different in some way from these two?

<comment><USER12> Vaadin is a bit higher level, if I remember correctly. It seems to pivot to work with Web Components these days, some of which might be written in Web Assembly anyway...

I don't even think that bytecode->WASM and Java->JavaScript should be that inherently different for frontend purposes. Then again, I never thought we'd need hyper-optimized JIT compilers for friggin' simplistic UIs, where you'd think that Microsoft BASIC would be fast enough... (Sure, it's great for lunning Linux, Quake or Alexa in the browser…)

But I'll try not ending up sounding facetious. From a code quality and ease of use POV, Blazor might be better, haven't done too much to argue that. And even rebranding the same technology after a few year's of both Moore's law and lessened expectations by users/developers is often a big difference from a marketing standpoint. And that does count, as it increases the community, which is where a lot of projects fail.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I see some worrisome coding patterns here: [https://github.com/TahaSh/vue- forum-app/blob/master/src/view...](https://github.com/TahaSh/vue-forum- app/blob/master/src/views/Category.vue)

            <base-button
              v-if="isLoggedIn && currentUser.can('own_topics:write')"
              class="new-topic-button"
              :to="{ name: 'CreateTopic' }"
            >

There is logic embedded in the view. Does this get compile-time checked (assuming you used a compiler such as TypeScript)? In my opinion this is the weak-point of Vue. It is possible to use JSX in Vue. But it is also possible to use non-compile-time-checked expressions. In React you only have compile- time-checkable syntax. That's better because when a code is written using React (by someone other than you) you immediately have some reassurance that some poor coding patterns are excluded.

<comment><USER15> >There is logic embedded in the view.

What logic is that? The v-if part? I've done a few larger vue apps where users have many different permissions. I don't see anything wrong with hiding something on the front end if a user doesn't have the permission. What would the alternative be? I remember the days of handling permissions via HTML templating engines... certainly a simple v-if statement in vue is better than that.

<comment><USER16> You have to read at least up to the third sentence to understand the comment.

<comment><USER15> If the concern is "compile-time checking", then that would be valid as a string template would not be checked I assume.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Why is this noteworthy? I'm not saying it isn't at all, but as someone who doesn't do full stack, how is this different than some of the basic app example one may do in a tutorial.

I'm sure it's more, it's just not clear to me with my lack of experience in this area.

<comment><USER18> _> Why is this noteworthy?_

I'm, obviously, pulling some rabbits out of thin air here but... see this:

      import Vue from 'vue'

Not knowing anything about Vue, you can still guess that Vue is serious magic just by looking at the way the code for the project is laid out.

That's it.

Ah, but why is it noteworthy?

Cause assume, just for a second, you had a private package, that may also be able to pull rabbits out of dark places, and you had reasons to keep it unpublished. Like, you wouldn't want to release the code, not even in bundled apps. In that case, you would look at this HN item, and repo, and note that, yes, one can release code for a magic based app without releasing the code for the magic lib itself. And that this may allow someone at HN to comment _Nice work! Just goes to show how clean and readable [insert magic lib name] code is_. And this can start a conversation and lead to opportunities.

And that's worth noting.

But also worth nothing. Cause it's nonsense. You can always do neither.

Edit: I'm not saying this is the reason this specific item is on the front page or commenting on the repo itself (the code looks solid). I'm just herding speculative rabbits.

<comment><USER19> I can't really follow all the rabbits here. Vue is just a library, being used in the same way as any other library.

<comment><USER18> > _I can 't really follow all the rabbits here._

I apologize for that.

When a rabbit picture is sent over a fax machine, the machine makes a lot of noise. Unfortunately even if one listens intently, one will not be able to see the rabbit. The message still goes through though.

<comment><USER20> I had a rather tough time following this conversation, but loved it thoroughly :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've been using React for a year or two, and I thought it's my holy grail for frontend.

Few weeks ago a colleague suggested Vue for a project. Initially I was skeptical, but as I learn it, my mind is blown. Esp. look at quasar.dev, it's Vue with batteries included.

<comment><USER22> I've been a React dev and after a couple of years of being Vue-curious, I banged around with it a little for a work project.

My reaction was the opposite of yours - I found the syntax to be some confusing "not really JS" that follows hard-to-discover rules and scoping. It felt very much like JSP - simple enough if you're just dropping in values, but as soon as something gets even slightly complex, it gets ugly quick. Error messages were also far less informative than React (to be fair, React has done a ton in the past couple of years to improve their error messaging).

Example: In react, if I want a <ui> with a bunch of
s, I tend to output a JSX
 with a bunch of
s from some JS loop. A 1:1 relationship between the tags I produce and the tags that are generated. My loop logic is pure JS, so no surprises there.

In Vue, the syntax is:

 {{ item.message }}

Which seems perfectly readable, but...The "
 tag doesn't represent what gets rendered, it's a TEMPLATE of what gets rendered. Can I reference "item" in another "v-" attribute of the
? What happens if I wanted to conditionally include/not-include an
 for the list of items?

A list shouldn't be where "complex" problems start. A list should still be "simple"

My anecdote doesn't beat yours, (and, generally, your anecdote is the more common one), but I wanted to offer an opposing data point, because I expected Vue to be less involved than React, and I found the opposite to be true.

<comment><USER23> Agreed completely. My favorite example is the `slot` directive which doesn't exist in React because the pattern comes for free.

To take the example from the Vue docs:

        // Component with a slot

            <slot name="todo" v-bind:todo="todo">
              {{ todo.text }}
            </slot>

        // Consuming component
        <todo-list v-bind:todos="todos">
          <template v-slot:todo="{ todo }">
            x
            {{ todo.text }}
          </template>
        </todo-list>

This can be rewritten in React with much simpler, cleaner code:

        // Component with a "slot"

          {filteredTodos.map(todo => props.renderTodo ? props.renderTodo(todo) : todo.text)}

        // Consuming component
        <TodoList todos={todos} renderTodo={todo =>
          `${todo.isComplete ? "x " : ""}${todo.text}`
        }/>

Simplicity is key. In the React version you don't have to worry about the `slot` syntax, build a mental model of how Vue treats it, or risk running into the limitations of the feature.

<comment><USER24> I'm not really sure how can you say that the React code is simpler or cleaner? Where do props come from? Where's the span for x?
's are generated by magic?

I just don't like mixing html and js like that, maybe that's why it also seems messy to me.

The vue example also isn't the greatest, some cruft could be removed using default slot and shorter syntax.

<comment><USER23> Both Vue and React have props. The above code is a snippet; I used the same format as the Vue documentation (which I agree is a little confusing).

> Where's the span for x?

I assumed Vue was only using the span for v-if, in React we don't need that extra node.

>
's are generated by magic?

Whoops -- an omission on my part. They should be wrapping the inside of the mapping function.

> I just don't like mixing html and js like that, maybe that's why it also > seems messy to me.

But this is where the magic is. It's exactly why React didn't need to invent a concept for "slots". I admit it's vaguely unfamiliar at first but if it increases both the power and simplicity of your template it's a no-brainer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> As a backend developer who only sometimes (and reluctantly) dabbles in frontend code, I found this example to be much more understandable:

[https://jasonwatmore.com/post/2018/07/14/vue-vuex-user- regis...](https://jasonwatmore.com/post/2018/07/14/vue-vuex-user-registration- and-login-tutorial-example)

The explanations are great, and the layered structure is nice and clean.

I've tried React and the learning curve was just too high for me. Learning Vue has been a joy by comparison.

</comment><comment><USER26> I prefer Ruby on Rails for these kind of CRUD apps. I see no tests in this repo and the DB also seems mocked?

</comment><comment><USER27> Neat minimal app! Each new page loads fast enough for me that the loaders are very jarring. Minimal UI improvement might be to remove the loader and just transition to the view when it is done loading. Show the loader after 200ms or some amount of time if it is taking unexpectedly long.

</comment><comment><USER28> Is there a way to make the transitions more snappy, maybe with a less linear transition curve? I suspect that current implementation makes the app feeling slower than it could be.

</comment><comment><USER29> Clicking reply on a topic prompts a login screen to display, if you then click signup it just reloads the topic

</comment><comment><USER30> Is there a similar for React and Node? Just trying to learn those

<comment><USER31> Try RealWorld example apps:

[https://realworld.io/](https://realworld.io/)

<comment><USER30> Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> is the auth provided here production ready? what steps do we need to take to make sure it's got prod ready auth?

</comment><comment><USER33> I didn't get a chance to look deep at your code, but was wondering what your thoughts were about this article on passport best practices:

[https://hackernoon.com/your-node-js-authentication- tutorial-...](https://hackernoon.com/your-node-js-authentication-tutorial-is- wrong-f1a3bf831a46)</comment>


Ask HN: Is Dvorak worth it? - <AUTHOR> I've been considering forcing myself to learn Dvorak for a while now, but I've been wondering about how much value there could be in switching. Has anyone here gone through with the switch? How was the learning process? How did your typing fare in the transitional period (i.e. did your QWERTY speed decrease as you learned Dvorak)? <comment><USER3> I use colemak - It's incremental to qwerty and is much easier to learn. As such, I'd argue it's better for developers as cut copy paste shortcuts and most punctuation are unchanged. Ubuntu and OSX both come with Colemak now (minus the caps lock to backspace). IMO it's a much more comfortable layout to use without being too terrible to learn. If you want to learn it's because you're interested. I type on crazy blank keyboards etc now - it's pretty gangster but if you're asking here I'd say you shouldn't bother. If you're driven to learn on your own beyond all logic and reason, then I'd personally recommend colemak. The only area that's tough is pairing with other devs but I can type fine on a qwerty as long as I have visual cues (can see the layout of the keyboard.) I can touchtype on qwerty just fine and fast but I'll make a lot of errors without the constant visual reminder of the keyboard infront of me.

My speed dropped from 115wpm to probably 40 - I just checked and it's back up to 80-90 wpm after about 4 years but my hands hurt a lot less because of the reduction in speed.

I'd say you'd get bigger bang for your buck switching to a kinesis advantage but if you THRIVE ON LEARNING than nobody will stop you from picking up a new layout. The keyboard is our fork and spoon. It is the tool of our daily life. Doesn't that make it worth some time, effort and money learning to use better?

</comment><comment><USER4> No. Colemak is better, from my experiences.

I've used QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak. Of the three - Colemak is the most comfortable. I type at 140-155 WPM in all but Dvorak, in which I am out of practice. When I was actively using Dvorak I typed in the same range.

The speed at which I type is not largely limited by any of the layouts, but the _comfort_ of typing is. I found Colemak to be the most comfortable and Dvorak to only have a slight edge on QWERTY.

I now use mostly Colemak but still maintain QWERTY practice for the times I have to use other peoples' machines (which is more often than I'd like).

If you type a lot and comfort is your goal - I would sing praises for Colemak.

<comment><USER3> +1 I love Colemak.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I first started learning dvorak almost 15 years ago. At that time I could type ~120 wpm on qwerty. Learning the dvorak layout was easy. After just a few hours practice I was able to type the full keyboard (maybe minus some of the symbols) at ~60 wpm. I didn't do anything else with it until a few years later.

Around 10 years ago I made a complete switch and I've been using it ever since. Today I am still not faster with dvorak than I was with qwerty when I switched. I was at 60-70 wpm for the first few weeks, and that was maddening. But after a few weeks I think I got into the 80s and that was more tolerable. Speed increases much beyond that are more about typing whole words or sequences of letters as a whole, and that tends to take longer to learn. Now I type around 100 wpm. I switched hoping to be able to type faster, so if that's the measure of success, then dvorak failed. I do think it's possible for a better keyboard layout to speed you up, but dvorak isn't that layout. It is pretty clear that my fingers travel less distance on a dvorak keyboard than they did on qwerty. Because of this, typing on dvorak has an overall "calmer" feel to it than qwerty. I've heard some say that it helps their RSI problems. I've never really suffered from RSI, so I can't personally comment there.

In summary, I don't mind that I changed, and if I could do it over, I still might do it again--but not for the same reasons.

</comment><comment><USER6> Not sure. As a programmer, it's harder to evaluate if you use autocompletion, for example.

Xah Lee has written about it:

[http://xahlee.info/comp/dvorak_keyboard_layout.html](http://xahlee.info/comp/dvorak_keyboard_layout.html)

[http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_and_all_keyboard_layouts.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_and_all_keyboard_layouts.html)

Tool to evaluate alternate layouts:

[http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout- analyzer/#/main](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main)

Other layouts:

[https://normanlayout.info](https://normanlayout.info)

[https://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-differ...](https://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-different- philosophy-in-designing-keyboard-layouts/)

[https://medium.com/@vojtajina/my-keyboard-layout-is- better-t...](https://medium.com/@vojtajina/my-keyboard-layout-is-better-than- yours-f23b19d1b046)

<comment><USER3> Don't use colemak or dvorak on your phone - they don't work well with swype etc due to autocorrect because the most common characters are all on the homerow. But it's not the same thing on a keyboard you type on all day.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I switched about fifteen years ago. After around four weeks of struggling I was bit faster than before (and as a COBOL programmer I was blazing fast on qwerty).

You won't be using Dvorak on mobile devices, but this is no big deal. If you're proficient with qwerty, you'll always retain the ability to use the qwerty layouts in a non-touch-typing manner just as well as before.

Since switching, I've avoided doing touch-typing on a full qwerty keyboard because I'm worried that going both ways could dull my Dvorak edge. I can tell I'm even faster than before, and it does feel more natural.

On the rare times I need to use someone else's keyboard, I can do it--but I'm clumsy and observers will be entertained by the spectacle of a tech wiz who "can't type on a normal keyboard". However, If I use a full qwerty keyboard for more than about thirty seconds the old qwerty-fu starts returning. I have never used a qwerty keyboard much longer than that because I just don't want to go back. I don't know, but I'd bet you if I wanted to go back to qwerty I'd be programmer-level proficient again in a week or two. Maybe even less.

It would be interesting to see if I could get proficient on both keyboards like bilingual people can switch between languages. I'm not curious enough about it to risk slowing down my cruising speed, though.

One more thought: I learned Dvorak without the benefit of a keyboard overlay. The first few days would probably be much easier if you use one.

Oh, and one more one more thought: I switched while self-employed. There were no jeering coworkers or impatient bosses to contend with.

And a final one more thought: be prepared to be asked about it. Most muggles have never heard of Dvorak.

</comment><comment><USER8> Yes, but not for the reasons normally given.

I switched in college, basically by forcing myself to write all my papers and AIM chats in Dvorak. It was painstaking at first, hunt-and-peck, particularly since I didn't have an actual labeled keyboard (I'd made a printout of the Dvorak layout instead). Took me about 2 weeks to get up to about 30 WPM (I'd been a 90 WPM Qwerty touch-typist before). It was another 6 months or so before I matched my Qwerty speed. Oh, and in the process I forgot how to type in Qwerty; I eventually re-learned it, so I'm now bi-keyboardal, but it was unnerving at the time. I'd say my typing speed now peaks at about 10% faster than it was then, but I'm usually thought-constrained and not typing- constrained.

I'd say it was worth it for a number of non-obvious reasons:

1\. The _process_ of switching is very illuminating about how our brain handles subconscious, autonomic tasks - much like how I imagine learning a new language is. I found that about a week and a half in, I had _half_ the keyboard mentally mapped in Qwerty and half mapped in Dvorak, such that I'd often type out unintelligible polyglot sentences. And for several years later, I'd be triggered by whatever was up on the screen: if I had an IDE open, I'd automatically type in Qwerty, while if I had an AIM chat or word processor open it'd be Dvorak. This is useful information whenever you're trying to build a new habit.

2\. It's a built-in security device. Even if someone gets ahold of your computer, they probably won't be able to use it.

3\. It helps a bunch with RSI. You stay over home row much more with a Dvorak layout, there's much less finger contortion, and so it's correspondingly less strain on your hands. Given how much I use my computer (and how I'm occasionally prone to tendonitis), this has been a godsend.

<comment><USER9> Your 1 reminds me of shifting leading hands on an instrument. Revisiting from scratch, crippled, is really an illumination. So much was possible without explicit understanding.

2 :)

3 Didn't learning new finger patterns also rewire the way you "handle" position and movement too ?

ps: about switching layouts, I realized that my brain associates layouts to certain machines. Typing in Qwerty on my laptop is easy, in Azerty on my parents machine is easy, but not the other way around. Doesn't help that they're both so close to each other I guess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I use programmer dvorak and absolutely love it. I would recommend it to everyone. Qwerty was just made to deliberately slow down typists. Dvorak is much more comfortable and the programmer dvk variant is really well laid out for coders. I can type long strings of numbers without looking and rarely have to backspace for a typo. Qwerty is just embarassing compared to dvorak. Some people with wrist stress find their typing longevity renewed thanks to dvk. Again, check out the programmer variant. Has some slight differences (numbers are shift-accessible, symbols like () and {} are the numeric row.

Interestingly, A and M are the same spot in qwerty and Dvorak. There are typing tutors online, but I recommend printing out the layout or keeping it on screen and learning that way. Your hands will thank you.

</comment><comment><USER11> I switched due to RSI with the hope it would help - but the difference it made was neglible. Buying a better ergonomic keyboard is far more important than the key layout for coping with RSI. If you're having problems, look for a column staggered keyboard with thumb modifiers.

Typing speed is not really any different from qwerty. Having all the vowels adjacent is sometimes a slowdown because you're utilizing one hand more than the other. I'd probably look at Workman or one of the Q?MLW? layouts if I were to learn again - since they're based on more modern attempts to measurably optimise the layout. The problem with those though, is having them supported by the OS and applications.

Which is perhaps the biggest reason not to bother with Dvorak. It's a PITA to configure most operating systems and the apps you use to have consistent keyboard shortcuts/chords/sequences etc, without having to stretch your hands around the keyboard for operations like cut/copy/paste - which are probably already hard-wired into your neural network. You'll find yourself reconfiguring the controls for any game you play - reconfiguring application's keybindings, if they let you do so easily - and every one of them will have a different means of configuring them anyway.

As for switching between Dvorak and Qwerty, I've never had an issue doing it. I sometimes make a mistake for perhaps the first minute after the context switch, but I can easily type in either layout as good as ever. Perhaps because I still used Qwerty regularly while learning Dvorak and still use it frequently still (can't change keyboard on work computers because people complain, etc).

For the time investment it'll take to learn Dvorak, I'd say it's not worth it. Start by getting a better keyboard (or for pleasure, make your own and adapt it to your hand shape). Play around with some other layouts like Workman and see if they feel comfortable. It should take only a few hours to learn any one layout and you'll forget it pretty quickly if you don't carry it on - so it's not really an issue trying out several layouts to see what you like - <USER2> committing to one with spaced repetition or just hard grinding.

<comment><USER6> Which ergonomic keyboard(s) do you use?

<comment><USER3> I would strongly recommend the Kinesis Advantage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> No. It's not.

About a year ago I switched cold turkey to Dvorak. Aware of Qwerty's obvious design flaws and the improvements Dvorak had made, I had been toying with the idea of learning Dvorak for quite some time. That summer I found myself with a few weeks of nothing to do, so I learned Dvorak. My regimen was to do the exercises on [http://learn.dvorak.nl](http://learn.dvorak.nl) everyday for as long as I could. Using a computer during that time was extraordinarily painful. I had to consciously think about the placement of every single keystroke, and simple things like googling "hockey scores" became a monumental task. I even started to avoid using a computer because typing was so difficult. If that sounds terrible, it was. However, with more practice things got better, and within a few weeks I could confidently type Dvorak at a reasonable speed.

A few months later, at school, two of my friends noticed I was using a different keyboard layout. I explained to them how I switched to Dvorak, and they decided to learn it too (which decision they made completely on their own; I hadn't even suggested they try it). Apparently their learning experiences were a lot more pleasant than mine, but it makes sense that it varies from person to person.

About a year later, I am a regular Dvorak user. However, would I recommend switching? No, not really. Dvorak is better than Qwerty, that much is obvious. But, did my typing speed increase? No, not really. I hadn't done any WPM measurements before I switched, but I'm roughly the same speed as before. Is Dvorak easier on your hands? Perhaps, but not by much in my opinion. If you do have hand pains, it is much easier and likely more effective to switch to a _keyboard_ that is more ergonomic, rather than a layout. There are loads of these keyboards out there, such as TypeMatrix, ErgoDox, Truly Ergonomic, Kinesis, knock your self out. Switching to an ergonomic keyboard is something I absolutely do recommend (your pinkies will thank you).

Do I regret switching to Dvorak? No, I don't. I'm no worse off than before, and maybe even slightly better. However, is learning Dvorak worth it? For its ergonomic benefits, no, and my two friends that learned Dvorak share this opinion. If you want to learn Dvorak, by all means go ahead, but don't do so with the wrong expectations.

</comment><comment><USER13> I have typed Dvorak for the past ten years, and my advice: Don't bother.

It is slightly more comfortable to type. And if you control your typing environments, it's better to stay with Dvorak than to switch back to Qwerty. But the cost of learning is still greater than the amount of comfort you would get.

And your typing speed will NOT increase with Dvorak. Typing speed is mostly due to alternating hands when you type; Qwerty is perfectly fine for that use case.

</comment><comment><USER14> depends on how many keyboards will you be switching to. I started using Dvorak and then later gave it up for the following reasons:

1) it was not supported on Linux/Unix back then 2) Switching to my wife's laptop (which had Qwerty) was uncomfortable 3) my wife couldn't use my laptop (which i had re-arranged the keys to match Dvorak) 4) remote desktop becomes a pain. If you connect to your computer from another computer/keyboard, your computer will expect you to type Dvorak, but your keyboard will be in Qwerty. 5) No proven reports that Qwerty causes CTS (until computers came along, everyone was using Qwerty) 6) some of the laptop-keyboards don't have all keys of the same size. Also the holders beneath might not be at the same alignment. So re-arranging the keys might be a problem. This is more of an issue, if you use rented laptops, like in my company. On the next laptop-upgrade, they will replace your laptop and you will have to deal with the "re-arrangement of keys" issue again.

As a side note, i can say that typing English in Dvorak was more comfortable and natural, than Qwerty. But for the above reasons, i finally gave up.

</comment><comment><USER15> Check out Programmer Dvorak. It's more suitable to programming IMHO, with symbols in the numbers row.

First few weeks was hell, but I've been using it for 6+ years, and couldn't be happier.

[http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/](http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/)

</comment><comment><USER16> Yes, it's more comfortable than QWERTY.

The switch was largely a wake up call in how adaptable the human mind is. The learning process was slow and comical until I started having Dvorak reflexes on a Qwerty keyboard.

I finally also learned to type properly. I type faster in Dvorak than I used to type in Qwerty.

What's not to like from a clean slate?</comment>


"Why I Declined An Offer To Work At Instagram" Via Quora - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/08/platform-for-all-human-knowledge/ <comment><USER2> Direct link to the Quora question: [http://www.quora.com/Instagram/Did-anyone- decline-an-offer-t...](http://www.quora.com/Instagram/Did-anyone-decline-an- offer-to-work-at-Instagram)

</comment><comment><USER3> Actual link: [http://www.quora.com/Instagram/Did-anyone-decline-an- offer-t...](http://www.quora.com/Instagram/Did-anyone-decline-an-offer-to- work-at-Instagram)

</comment><comment><USER4> Personally I admire him for taking the opportunity he truly wanted and believed in. That's so much more important in the long run

For those of you who think money is the only thing that matters, go make a good bit of it then see if it changes your life so dramatically like you think it will.

The reality is unless you're an asshole money does not change you much at all. And if you're an entrepreneur it's not gonna make you stop from moving on to the next big idea either.

It's easy to sit on one said and say "you know he's actually upset about this" but until you've sat on the other side of things and realized he has a job he loves at a company he truly believes in you're probably better off saying nothing at all.

Just my $.02

<comment><USER5> > For those of you who think money is the only thing that matters, go make a > good bit of it then see if it changes your life so dramatically like you > think it will.

This is kind of predicated on you not hurting for money now. If you're fighting to pay off $100,000 worth of medical bills, or trying to figure out how to move to a different state for a job without getting totally hosed on a house you bought six months ago, money could make one hell of a difference.

<comment><USER4> My argument here is simply that the people who make it are the ones who go through those struggles and keep fighting.

I promise you there were a few occasions in my life where I had to choose between toilet paper and toothpaste. My employees had no idea how bad I was struggling and had I ever let it on they probably would have jumped ship. I found a way to make it through those stuggles where most people would have quit.

It's easy for people to say "Life's easier when you dont have to worry about paying off debt etc." what most of those people forget is that the ones of us who dont have those worries now probably had them just as bad or worse than you can imagine at some point.

The media loves to talk about the rosy side of startups but they never print the article talking about the guys with stories like mine.

At one point I literally took a job selling cars on the weekend just to be able to keep paying my employees and losing money on my business. Everyone I knew told me to quit, but I was just young enough and just dumb enough that I wouldn't. I believed in myself, my company and my employees too much to just give up.

If I had listened to my friends and parents I would have quit, finished school and got a job in the rat race worrying about paying off those student loans.

Instead I got it profitable and ended up selling the company.

Unlike the poster below thinks though I don't have 40 free hours a week these days. I am working to build the next big thing because this is in my blood, its what I love to do and I'll be damned if money (in any direction) is going to be a factor in making my life turn out the way I want.

<comment><USER5> > My argument here is simply that the people who make it are the ones who go > through those struggles and keep fighting.

Or the ones who get lucky.

> <personal anecdote>

I'm really glad things worked out for you. But it's still a personal anecdote. (On the gripping hand, I fully admit that I do not have your drive, and I would have failed where you succeeded; so maybe there's something to it after all. How much did luck play in your success?)

<comment><USER4> >> How much did luck play in your success?

I'd say in my case, as with most anyone's I was very lucky and we all have to be to have a story like mine, but I am still a firm believer in great people making their own luck.

Call me crazy if you like, its just how I feel. I didn't grow up with money, I didn't go to the nicest schools or have the best teachers but I had a ton of drive and the will to succeed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> His take could have been close to 5Mil+[1] had he joined the team.

While i do believe there are people out there who are not motivated by money, to me claiming "..money doesn't make much of a difference... most of it's gone. I'm kind of glad it is." smells of cognitive dissonance.

[1] [http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2012/04/facebook-buys- instagr...](http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2012/04/facebook-buys-instagram/)

<comment><USER7> Re: "His take could have been close to 5Mil+[1] had he joined the team."

So let's say he was hired. Maybe his engineering decisions send Instagram on another trajectory - one that doesn't involve a billion dollar exit. Maybe his impact on candidate interviews causes Instagram to end up with an entirely different-looking engineering team, one that isn't as successful. Maybe he develops considerable influence within the organization, and convinces the founders to take an earlier exit.

This isn't a knock against Robert. This is just suggesting that things could have played out entirely differently were he onboard - even if he was by every measure a successful employee.

<comment><USER5> Maybe an asteroid strikes their headquarters. Maybe this is a pretty good argument^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H justification for why every decision someone makes is the right^H^H^H^H^H wrong one.

<comment><USER7> I mean, sure, those things could have happened, but I was focusing on outcomes that might likely have been impacted by Robert as the 2nd engineering hire - not random acts of god.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is TechCrunch really allowed to post entire Quora answers as articles?

<comment><USER9> Forbes has been doing it for a while and @Quora retweets them all the time, so they must be OK with it.

(Haven't checked, but assuming they're licensed under Creative Commons?)

<comment><USER10> Forbes has an arrangement with Quora[1]. AFAIK TechCrunch does not.

[1] [http://www.quora.com/How-does-Forbes-decide-which-Quora- answ...](http://www.quora.com/How-does-Forbes-decide-which-Quora-answers-to- post-on-their-website)

<comment><USER9> Oh wow, that is very interesting. I always thought it was Forbes cherry- picking content to repost, had no idea that it was Quora themselves selecting what to essentially "promote" on Forbes.

Also, now I know why @Quora retweets the Forbes versions so often! (It always aggravates me, personally - I usually click through to the Quora version so I can see other replies, votes, comments, etc.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Maybe it is just me, but I still don't get this craziness around Instagram.

<comment><USER12> I don't even get the craziness around Quora...

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> bcoz u r an idiot !

</comment><comment><USER14> Considering that one is more likely to win the lottery than strike it rich at any startup, I wouldn't have any regrets either.

<comment><USER5> [ citation needed ]</comment></comment>


Windows 7 Upgrade Chart - <AUTHOR> http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/files/2009/08/windows-upgrade-chart.png

<comment><USER2> Why is it this way? Is Microsoft just lazy, doing this for marketing reasons, or is there a legitimate reason for this?

People might be annoyed by Apple for the App Store control, but you must admit, at least they have their OS upgrading makes sense.

<comment><USER3> If this came from anyone but MS, I would say it's a good example of how to lie with charts. The upgrade rules are pretty simple, but drawing it as a chart makes it look complex. You can't upgrade to a different bitness, because that might break apps or drivers that depend on the old bitness. You can't "upgrade" to an OS with fewer features (e.g. Ultimate to Home). I don't know why they don't allow upgrades from XP or Vista Starter; that sounds like plain laziness given that IIRC it is possible to upgrade XP -> Vista -> 7.

In general Apple tries to configure things at runtime, while Windows does more install-time configuration which inevitably breaks when things change.

<comment><USER2> The bit change makes sense, but why not upgrade to an OS with fewer features? Maybe I bought Vista Ultimate, and it wasn't worth it, so I want to just stick with the normal home version this time around. I have to do a full clean install for that? I think MS could easily add support to upgrade to a "lower" version of the OS if you bought the premium last time.

<comment><USER4> Two reasons;

1) You begin to get a combination explosion of all the scenarios Microsoft would have to test "upgrades" with.

2) Some people may appreciate this, but others would complain about program or feature X/Y/Z suddenly going missing from their machine after an "upgrade".

<comment><USER2> I guess it simplifies down to Microsoft has too many versions of Windows, but I guess it allows them to pull more money out of the market.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> That's a whole lotta blue.</comment>


My Experience in Tech and Its Reflection on Women in Tech in India - <AUTHOR> http://www.minvolai.com/blog/2015/05/My-Experience-in-Tech-and-its-reflection-on-Women-in-Tech-in-India/2015-5-21-My-Experience-in-Tech/ <comment><USER2> Hi, I am the author here. I am kind of overwhelmed that my post got onto HN and there are so many comments :)

This post was not meant to be a comprehensive social commentary. The post was triggered in response to a question from one of my friends at a local meetup on how to improve the gender imbalance. So the post tended to be more in tune with how to address that particular issue.

This post is also not meant to decry or judge the women who voice out their opinions and experiences at work. It takes a lot of courage to talk about sexism at work as it can potentially affect the relationships with colleagues and also their future employment. Besides, it is impossible for me judge something based on just news reports.

Women in India too have issues to tackle. The disproportional work for women at home in general which affects their participation outside. The inability to take off from work post-pregnancy for more than the prescribed period even if she wanted to. Cultural restrictions on what a woman can do or cannot do. These need to be addressed. But I believe these are more social issues than issues in tech. I respect the women who speak out regarding these and the men who acknowledge and support them. Without them progress would not be made.

Unfortunately the proportion of the polarity of reports turn out to be more like product reviews. Say 10% of negative issues are reported. Not even 0.1% of the positive aspects are reported. (I am pulling numbers from the air, but I hope you get the picture ;) ) Thats because, when things go right, we often fail to notice. This often results in a skewed negative image. I have mostly been surrounded by men (father, brother, hubby, friends, colleagues, professors, teachers) who were most supportive of what I did and I believe they deserve credit too. Also, there must more such men and women out there in tech, who can/do inspire more girls into this interesting field. I believe as individuals, we can make a difference.

Also, again, my experience is not definitive. Others might have had a different experience.

</comment><comment><USER3> As the author points out, the path into tech in India is seen as a lot more broadly applicable; it's a pathway into middle-class job like being a doctor. It's also a good base on which you can move overseas to work in the Middle East or Western countries.

An interesting point she brings up is that gender bias in how one looks at STEM subjects is not universal. In many countries there isn't a prevalent idea that girls won't do well in math or programming classes. This helps with the "pipeline" problem because you end up with more educated women with expertise in these subjects.

As someone who's lived both the US and India I also think one shouldn't consider Hacker News or tech blogs as particularly representative of the US software industry either. Narratives of conflict make for juicy reading, whether on Twitter or in the mainstream media but they are not holistic representations of how it is to live in a country or work in an industry.

<comment><USER4> I think learning to program is good for you in other aspects of life as well. You are able to make more informed and logical decisions due to your knowledge of programming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's an NGO I work with that teaches girls in Dharavi (the big slum in Mumbai) to program Android apps. They did a great job.

I think a lot of people in the US don't get that in a lot of ways, the middle class in Mumbai or Hyderabad is really a lot like the middle class in the US (it doesn't help that the diaspora in the US mostly came over in the 60s and 70s, and there's a kind of "frozen in amber" quality of their memories of the old country).

<comment><USER6> Do you have the name of this NGO, I'm interested to learn more about their experience.

<comment><USER7> Googling for Darvai Girls app sent me to this: [http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811](http://efytimes.com/e1/fullnews.asp?edid=155811)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> good read it is.</comment>


Ad clicks on Google.com up 25%, on publishers websites down 12% – adblockers? - <AUTHOR> http://www.wsj.com/article_email/google-revenue-hurt-by-rising-dollar-1429819888-lMyQjAxMTE1ODIxMzkyMTM1Wj

<comment><AUTHOR> This is the chart I refer to in the title:

[http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BT- AB408_GOOGLE_16...](http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BT- AB408_GOOGLE_16U_20150423184805.jpg)

Why would adsense banners bring in 12% less then last year? The internet is on the rise, so you would expect a healthy gowth.

Are these the adblockers that are at play here?</comment>


Company introduces methanol fuel cell for laptops - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-9975781-42.html <comment><USER2> I wish I could buy one for my laptop. Then I could happily disappear into a national park for a few days at a time, walking and working.</comment>


Stephen Wolfram on Bing Deal, Software Strategy & Future of Knowledge Computing - <AUTHOR> http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2010/01/05/stephen-wolfram-talks-bing-partnership-software-strategy-and-the-future-of-knowledge-computing/

<comment><USER2> Wow, 200 employees when Mathematica is 600? Stephen Wolfram was taking a big risk with Alpha, but I guess he's used to succeeding at things.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think Wolfram Alpha is actually really important and revolutionary in the amount of knowledge that it makes readily available for free. You just have to think of it more as a command line than a search engine.

</comment><comment><USER4> single page view:

[http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2010/01/05/stephen-wolfram- ta...](http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2010/01/05/stephen-wolfram-talks-bing- partnership-software-strategy-and-the-future-of-knowledge- computing/?single_page=true)</comment>


Trump Orders American Companies to 'Start Looking for an Alternative to China' - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/business/china-tariffs-trump.html <comment><USER2> Take out the middleman. Go to Africa.</comment>


Multilingual presidents of United States - <AUTHOR> https://my.infocaptor.com/dash/i.php?viz=mtqzywqz <comment><USER2> Interesting but completely unreadable. Was it really the best format to show this information?

<comment><USER3> It got 11 points on /r/dataisbeautiful, so it must be good! :P

[https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/3lfqfv/mul...](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/3lfqfv/multilingual_presidents_of_the_united_states_oc/)

<comment><USER2> 2 of the top 3 comments:

"Those lines are nearly impossible to trace, especially since they are all gray."

"This is interesting data, but the visualization is not beautiful. It's incredibly hard to read."</comment></comment></comment>


Why Our Nuclear Weapons Can Be Hacked - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/opinion/why-our-nuclear-weapons-can-be-hacked.html <comment><USER2>
      One of these deficiencies involved the Minuteman silos,
      whose internet connections could have allowed hackers to...

      One of these deficiencies involved the Minuteman silos,
      whose internet connections...

      ...Minuteman silos, whose internet connections...

We are _decades_ past the point where it made sense to have ICBM silos connected to The Internet. The civilian internet is not the kind of thing that should be capable of addressing an ICBM silo.</comment>


How Matt's Machine Works - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcolabs.com/3035463/how-matts-machine-works

<comment><USER2> I can't read any puff piece anymore without feelings of envy and cringing.

<comment><USER3> I can't read _this_ puff piece without thinking that if PHP died tomorrow, most of the web (WP + FB) would too. Worse is Better indeed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> 80% of the web running on WordPress is a great ambition.

</comment><comment><USER5> Now I'm intrigued to see what P2 looks like.

<comment><USER6> It's open source! :)

Check it out here: [http://p2demo.wordpress.com/](http://p2demo.wordpress.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Great in-depth piece</comment>


Ask HN: Is Silicon Valley in a Boom Cycle? - <AUTHOR>

I've lived in The Valley for 25 years, arriving just in advance of a recession in 1991. Since then, we've had 2 boom cycles (1996-2000, 2004-2007) and 2 major busts in 2001 and 2008. From my perspective, Silicon Valley is currently in a boom cycle:
A. Traffic is the worst I've seen [0]
B. Multi-story office complexes are going up at an astonishing rate. A drive down 237 and 101 in Mountain View/Sunnyvale/Santa Clara passes more than a dozen major construction sites. And Facebook, Apple and LinkedIn all put up major new HQs in the last couple of years (Facebook just completed, Apple still in progress).
C. House prices are surging again. Santa Clara County median price is +11.1% YOY to US$1,000,000 [1]
D. Apartments in San Francisco are at all-time highs: Average $4,385 for 2 BR in the city [2]
E. The San Francisco Bay Area is now home to 5(?) of the top 20 US companies by
market capitalization, including #1 and #2: AAPL, GOOG(L), WFC, FB, CVX. (ORCL have recently fallen out of top 20)
F. Unemployment in The Valley has dropped from 7.0% in July 2013 to 4.1% this month [3]
If we are in a boom, what are the underlying market factors specific to Silicon Valley, vs. the rest of the US? How sustainable is it?
If we are not in a boom, what are the indicators?
[0] http://www.sigalert.com/Map.asp#lat=37.55783&lon=-122.138&z=2 [1] http://scc.rereport.com/market_reports [2] https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-rent-trends [3] http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/lfmonth/sjos$pds.pdf <comment><USER2> It's not just the valley. The whole market crashes every ~8 years. Expect a crash before mid-2017.</comment>


Test Driven Development Lifecycle - <AUTHOR> http://hecticjeff.net/2011/03/22/test-driven-development-lifecycle/

<comment><USER2> Want more :-) There are thousands of blogposts about how various testing tools work, but very few about WHAT to test and HOW to test it. Something with exaples on some app like a simple blog or photo gallery, etc. would be awesome.

<comment><AUTHOR> Glad you enjoyed it!

I've noticed this as well, there aren't enough articles that give a heuristic view of testing as a whole process.

Hopefully I'll get time to write "part 2" of this article soon, with a walk- though of testing the whole stack.</comment></comment>


Unlimited Vacation Time - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbarrows.com/Programming/Jobs/Vacation/2013/01/26/vacation.html <comment><USER2> "Unlimited vacation" translates to "no vacation".

What does "as long as you're getting your work done" mean? There's no point in the year when nobody would be happier if you got something done sooner. There's never a time when taking vacation doesn't mean that some work you might have done doesn't get pushed to somebody else, or never done. The point of vacation is that you should be able to relax, but if you're worrying that you're screwing the company by not getting your work done, how can you relax?

Unlimited vacation sounds nice, but in practice it doesn't work.

<comment><USER3> Have you worked at a company that offers unlimited vacation?

I do (it's a recent change for us). It works fine. People take time off when they want to (one of the guys on my team is on a 2-week vacation in Thailand right now). Yes, some people (including myself) do the illogical guilt thing on occasion. But if your manager isn't encouraging you to take time off periodically, he's doing a bad job as your manager.

Right now I'm planning a week and a half in Peru for this spring, and I'm toying with the idea of a southeast Asia trip this summer for a similar amount of time. I also took four days off beyond normal holiday days around the New Year. A week and a half ago I was very ill and stayed home for three days without having to worry about "taking a sick day" (not to mention that my colleagues thanked me for not coming in and getting them sick too).

If you work for a company that has "unlimited vacation" but makes people who use it feel stigmatized, quit and find a company that doesn't lie to you about its culture. They do exist.

It makes me sad that this "unlimited vacation doesn't work" comment is the top-voted one right now. It's absolutist and entirely nonsensical.

<comment><USER4> So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your manager."

The problem with "quit and find a company that doesn't lie to you about its culture" is that you can't tell if they're lying until you've made the enormous investment of quitting your previous job and getting hired there.

Even if they're the good guys(tm), their investors can kick out the previous CEO, and management styles can change dramatically for the worse.

If you accept "unlimited vacation," you're negotiating a scenario where a non- trivial portion of your compensation is tied to the goodwill of your counter- party, whose inherent interests are opposed to yours, and where the costs of you "fixing" the situation are dramatic.

Caveat emptor.

<comment><USER3> _So we agree unlimited vacation really means "vacation at the mercy of your manager."_

Vacation is always at the mercy of your manager, regardless if it's unlimited or not.

So ok, you clearly are flat-out cynical about all this stuff so... don't work for a company with unlimited vacation. It works just fine for some of us, who work for reasonable companies. That's a fact, regardless of your feelings on the matter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Another less likely employer benefit to be considered is that in roughly half of that U.S. states, employers must pay out accrued vacation time if there is a policy in place.

An example from California's vacation faq (<http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_vacation.htm>):

"For example, an employee who is entitled to three weeks of annual vacation (15 work days entitlement per year x 8 hours/day = 120 hours vacation entitlement per year) who quits on August 7, 2002 (the 219th day of the year) without having taken any vacation in 2002, who has no vacation carry-over from prior years, and whose final rate of pay is $13.00 per hour, would be entitled to $936.00 vacation pay upon separation"

<comment><USER6> I've always assumed this is exactly why silicon valley companies have unlimited vacation policies. They know their employees won't take much vacation time, and this way they won't have to put the balance on the books.

<comment><USER7> I don't think that would work. When we set up our company handbook, we had to include an actual number of vacation days, even though we have an minimum- number-of-days policy. I think Trinet (HR-as-a-service) made us.

<comment><USER5> While I haven't researched this a ton, I've heard conflicting opinions about whether or not you must have a vacation policy in your handbook. This may also be a state-by-state requirement meaning TriNet optimizes for the blanket, you must have one, stance. Does anyone have a citation proving this one way or another?

<comment><USER8> In nearly every case (California is always special, as are a few other states), you aren't required to have a vacation policy at all, or any company policy for that matter. One of the main reasons you have company policies is to make administration easier, and more importantly, to protect you from legal troubles that result from discrimination. If you have a clear policy about vacation days and how they're paid out, and you adhere to it, it will be much harder for someone to claim it as evidence of discrimination than if you sort things out on a case-by-case basis, without any sort of policy as a guide.

Outsourcing partners will require it for similar reasons, but also because it makes their lives a lot easier when they handle it for you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What I think is a more interesting ideas is this: minimum vacation time. You must take at least X vacation days / weeks per year. I think that would be the best of both worlds and avoids the psychology wherein no vacation is had, which is toxic

<comment><USER10> FDIC says it is also a good internal control policy - force people to take a 2 week vacation as a means to mitigate fraud.

<http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financial/1995/fil9552.html>

<comment><USER11> It is also good for resilience and disaster planning.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I switched from a job with 3 weeks of vacation (that would be 4 by now if I had stayed) to one with no policy. My take on it is I can take 3-4 weeks a year without feeling guilty.

I honestly think every responsible and competent adult (and I purposefully leave those terms imprecise) should have no vacation policy. Vacation should be a fact of life: take it when you need it, don't take it when you can't, and work as much as you need to to do a good job (again, imprecise).

<comment><USER13> You want to be an independent contractor. That is cool, but not what an employer is.

Do you think responsible adults should just pay employees whatever they need and can, and not agree on a number in advance? Why or why not?

<comment><USER14> Are you paying for them to be there for a prescribed time or are you paying them to get the work done?

<comment><USER15> I agree. I've now worked for two companies with unlimited vacation policies, and there have been some stark differences. At my previous job, where there was previously an accrued vacation system that switched to an unlimited policy, no one felt good about taking vacation days. At my current employer, everyone from the founders on down advertise and celebrate their vacation. Same policy, different context.

From an hours-worked-metrics standpoint, the policy is a success at my previous employer and a failure at my current job.

From an employee-health and burnout-rate standpoint, the policy is a failure at my previous employer and a massive success here.

I can't advocate either policy over the other without that context, but I'm skeptical of the value of introducing unlimited vacation as a benefit over an existing accrued vacation policy that employees are generally happy with.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I've been the beneficiary of vacation payouts somewhat regularly, which were in addition to bonuses paid based on overtime hours. I was also able to take advantage of a significant chunk of vacation I had built up when I left my previous company to help fund starting a new company.

In my case, I would probably not benefit dollar for dollar from an unlimited vacation policy. I would either take less vacation or not benefit from the payouts. That's not to say that unlimited vacation is a bad policy. It might be a great policy, and I'm sure it depends on the details of how it is implemented and the culture of the company where it is implemented; however, it is certainly possible that the practical outcome is more of a net benefit for the company rather than the employees.

Since many startups these days are advertising unlimited vacation, I'd love to hear from both founders and employees about some of the practical ways in which this policy plays out.

</comment><comment><USER17> We've talked about this a fair bit at 42Floors. The consensus is that the more senior people need to make an example of themselves by liberally taking vacation. If they set the example, then everyone else will take vacation.

At a previous startup, we had pretty much unlimited vacation time, and the result was that no one took any. So clearly this doesn't work unless you make a point of encouraging people to actually take advantage. We thought about setting a minimum vacation policy where you have to take at least a certain amount, but some people didn't like the idea of being forced to take vacation.

Since I haven't taken any significant vacation since I started (6 months ago), I recently made a deal with Jason (the CEO) that I need to plan a significant vacation by the end of February. Suggestions welcome...

</comment><comment><USER18> What I think is more important than vacation time is the ability to take time off for a doc appt., dentist appt., go see the kids play at school, take a walk around, because you're sick.

Also, freedom from incompatible work environments would be nice. It is way too noisy where I work. At the very least they should provide nice ($300-400) noise cancellation headphones without me having to beg.

<comment><USER19> In the US you're legally entitled to time off for doctor's appointments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I totally agree with you! It's hard enough to get away with taking vacation when it's quantified. Also, I notice that a lot places offering unlimited vacation tend to be younger companies that are growing which makes it that much harder to "get away" without disruption.

</comment><comment><USER21> If you feel guilty or pressured when taking vacation then perhaps you need to find a better company. The mind and body need breaks.

<comment><USER22> Absolutely agree. I worked pretty much non-stop for a 2 month period (being in grad school as well as a full-time SWE) last year. When I finally took a break (holiday shut down) I was surprised do discover how exhausted I truly was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I notice when I'm offered a certain amount of vacation but feel pressure not to use it, I'm much more likely to use it. The hypocrisy gets to me, and I think, "If you don't want me to use it, don't offer it!" If a boss can't plan around his employees taking the offered vacation, then he's probably not doing his job very well.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've been working overseas for over 4 years, and I'm only now getting used to the amount of vacation time we get. We are actually encouraged to use all of our vacation time. --It works out like this:

By law we get 5 weeks of vacation a year. My employer throws in an extra week as a perk, but that week gets used last, and can't roll over - basically use all 6 weeks or lose one. And then you can roll over up to 2 weeks if you don't use it all. So in practice, this means that you'll take at least 3 weeks, and almost everyone takes the full 6 weeks, unless they're planning something for the next year and know that they'll want an extra two weeks.

</comment><comment><USER8> Like most things in business, the problem isn't with the policy, it's with management. If you create a culture that frowns upon employees taking vacation time, it won't matter if you give them unlimited vacation or only two weeks, nobody will take it. And if you create a culture that values rested, refreshed, happy employees, the total number of days isn't nearly as important.

With that said, when unlimited vacation time is implemented well, it can be amazing for both the company and employees for a number of reasons:

1) You don't worry as much about things like sick days or one-off PTO. Work doesn't always follow a 9-5 schedule, so if you end up working 60 hours in four days, you can just take Friday off - it feels like less of a big deal if you don't have to worry about 'losing a day.'

2) Do you need to leave early to make a flight? Don't worry about entering it into the system, just do it.

3) If people are legitimately sick, they won't come to the office and infect everyone out of fear of 'using a sick day.'

4) Holidays get a lot easier. Do you not mind working between Christmas and New Years, but want to take time off for Eid/Rosh Hashanah/Diwali/Festivus/whatever? All of a sudden it's not a big deal. It's also great for parents, who don't have to worry as much about child care if their kids have random day off of school.

5) You can take a 'big trip' without losing all your days. The consecutive days, rather than the one-off long weekends, are the bigger issue for a company. I've actually found it easier to take a long trip when I didn't have to worry about losing all my days.

Companies are nervous about this arrangement because they worry employees will abuse it, but again, that's a management issue. You have unlimited vacation time as long as you are getting your work done. If you're taking so much time the work isn't getting done, then the issue isn't vacation time, it's a performance problem, the same as if you showed up every day and just played on facebook.

Because the management piece of it is so important, there are also things companies can do to make a system like this work better:

1) Create a mandatory 'real vacation' by requiring employees to take at least a week off, in a row, once a year. If employees feel like they can never take time off, they'll get burnt out and you'll lose great people. If you make a vacation mandatory, people will feel more comfortable taking the time, and the company will reap the rewards of happier, clearer thinking people. Plus, many people, especially in creative or professional jobs, get inspired when they're able to step away from the day to day for a little bit.

2) Make telecommuting easy, so that employees can still check in even if they're not in the office. Sometimes, people only really need a half day, but don't mind sitting on e-mail in the morning. Or they have their kids around all day and would love to get the opportunity to talk to some adults. The important thing here is to be flexible, and make sure that telecommuting doesn't become "we can make you work wherever, whenever, even on vacation."

3) Have real performance management. This isn't about annual reviews, it's about managers that provide ongoing, regular feedback about how employees are doing against the company's goals, help them understand when they're falling short, and work non-performers out of the organization. Top performers will get turned off by anyone abusing the policy, even more than management.

<comment><USER25> Can you explain why people are afraid to take a sick day?

I'm not from the USA, so this might be a cultural thing or things just work different where I'm from.

Also, since I'm moving there, does this apply to the UK?

<comment><USER26> It doesn't apply to the UK. If you're sick, be sick. You'll be paid, too.

A few caveats:

1\. The above is for permanent positions. If you're a contractor the rules are different.

2\. The above is true once you're through probation, which might be the first six months.

3\. I have no idea what it's like in startups. I've only ever worked for big companies or the government.

But in general, sick leave is a benefit like a company car or flexible working. If it's in your contract, no one will mind you using it.

A point about holiday leave, too. In the UK, it's usual to take holidays. Everyone does, and then we talk about them in the office afterwards. It's considered part of being a rounded human being. Most holiday entitlements don't roll over, either, so if you don't use your 30 days (for example), you lose the remainder. This means there's a bit of a scramble to get them used up before rollover day. Everyone does this, and you'll be looked upon as a bit peculiar if you don't use the holidays you're entitled to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Back when we were doing our startup, we had a month's worth of vacation hard- coded into our employment contracts. Everyone got the same amount. This gave people a good measuring stick of what we expected under normal conditions. We didn't enforce the limit though, so people could take more if they wanted to (which happened very rarely). We also encouraged people to take time off, especially when they seemed burned out.

This worked amazingly well. It was one of the very few things we did right.

</comment><comment><USER28> My company previously had 12 days of vacation a year, they switched to "unlimited vacation" - most people, myself included, take about a week a year now.

</comment><comment><USER29> Unlimited Vacation policies borrow from the Unlimited Sick Time. Most companies used to be explicit about sick days. "You get 6 per year." Then a few companies started with a more enlightened policy of, "We don't count, we trust you." Perhaps the early adopters of this policy viewed it as a trust issue. Then the data started coming in... On average people took a lot fewer than 6 when nobody was counting. The policy then turned in to a cost savings plan, and everyone started doing it.

The "You get as much vacation as you want" seems to be going that direction too. The early adopters were enlightened, thinking, "The value of showing trust to an engineer will more than pay for the rare abuse." It does save money, and now the cost cutters are seeing it too.

I've worked in several places where you get a month of vacation, and never get to use it all because you're too busy. Changing that to unlimited does not help much.

Some things that do help: \- Mandate everyone takes a 2 week continuous vacation. This is done by banks for compliance reasons. (Harder to hide fraud if you're out 2 weeks in a row.) It is very beneficial, because this forces you to take at least 2 weeks of your allocated 4. \- Allow paid sabbaticals. "After X years, you can take 2X weeks off for a continuous sabbatical that we pay for, and we'll pick up half of any coursework or travel costs." \- Lead by example. This is VERY tough, because most good leaders like to lead by example showing that they're not above working hard. They can also lead by example taking their vacation.

In the end, none of this is altruistic. It's a way to keep talent motivated and feeling valued when they have lots of options. If you stiff a good engineer 2 weeks of vacation, they can always make it up by taking 2 weeks off before starting another job. :-)

</comment><comment><USER30> When I had a few employees in Manhattan, my policy was "Sick days, holidays, vacation --just do what makes sense." It all worked out fine.

My office manager, whose main house was a couple hours outside NYC, took 3 and 4 day weekends at the slightest pretext, e.g. some Jewish holidays I've never heard of before or since. Once she even got it up to 5 days. On the other hand, the only time she took a solid week off was when I insisted she fly to her estranged mother's funeral. And she didn't get sick much.

My #2 office guy was Catholic, and didn't need the Jewish holidays. About the only time they overlapped on a day I wanted to be open was for Good Friday (which of course usually falls during Passover).

It all worked out fine.

Similarly, both there and especially in the Boston area where people drove to work, my policy was "Good heavens, don't start at 9:00 am and fight the worst of rush hour unless you really want to!" Some chose 8:00 am, some 10:00 am. I had more coverage, and it was all good.

</comment><comment><USER31> There's a huge discussion here on how what really matters is company culture, not policies on how much vacation time you're allowed.

My takeaway is to only work for companies where you already know somebody outside of work. The problem is that it's _really_ hard to get a sense of a company's culture during the interview process, so unless you have a friend who's willing to tell the truth you can easily be deceived. I know some companies that claimed to have 40 hour work weeks but people frequently came in on weekends. More surprisingly, I knew some companies where they claimed to be workaholics but generally held 9-5 hours.

So find someone you trust to tell you the raw truth about the company-not the whitewashed sales pitch. "2 weeks of official vacation, but people actually take 5" is a lot better than "unlimited vacation, but no one takes any."

</comment><comment><USER32> At Levion, we're looking at implementing a stated vacation day policy, but as a matter of policy. So to avoid discouraging people from using say, 10 or 15 days of vacation, you are guaranteed those days. As a matter of policy, we probably won't track vacation days unless it feels excessive (and where you need to "buy" vacation days if you go over excessively). How does this sound?

</comment><comment><USER33> I've found that it's sometimes the case that you will officially get offered a fixed amount of vacation time, but informally you can take more than it if you want.

The unwritten rule seems to be "you're working really hard to get a featured shipped, if you need extra vacation to decompress after, feel free".

</comment><comment><USER34> I'd go on vacation for ever and see how long they keep paying me :-)</comment>


Apple's new iMac - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/07/apples-new-imac/

<comment><USER2> as of august, 2007....</comment>


Microsoft Beats Expectation Again - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/24/microsoft-beats-expectations-with-30-6b-in-revenue-as-azures-growth-continues/ <comment><AUTHOR> The stock hit 1 trillion in aftermarket trading [https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/24/microsoft-q3-2019-earnings.h...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/24/microsoft-q3-2019-earnings.html)</comment>


Kubernetes at What3words - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@what3words/kubernetes-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-container-7bafa24d16e9 <comment><USER2> Reminder that you should avoid what3words. Still unfortunate that some governments fell into using them.

[https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/03/why-bother-with-what- three-...](https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/03/why-bother-with-what-three-words/)

> The algorithm used to generate the words is proprietary. You are not allowed > to see it. You cannot find out your location without asking W3W for > permission.

> If you want permission, you have to agree to some pretty long terms and > conditions. And understand their privacy policy. Oh, and an API agreement. > And then make sure you don't infringe their patents.

> You cannot store locations. You have to let them analyse the locations you > look up. Want to use more than 10,000 addresses? Contact them for prices!

<comment><USER3> Oh geez I didn't know any of this. We have planned to explore using this tool for one of our products. This effectively kills it.

<comment><USER4> Plus codes seem to be a much better solution [https://plus.codes/](https://plus.codes/)

Kinda curious why you would be using something like this?

<comment><USER5> There are a few more open specification Geohash algorithms out there as well.

What's silly about W3W is that their entire "proprietary algorithm" is going to be the same as all of these, except with /usr/share/dict/words instead of A-Z0-9 as the alphabet.

The only reason they need Kubernetes clusters on AWS is to keep their word list secret, every open-spec code can run offline.

<comment><USER3> I don't understand how they thought this business model would ever work.

Have they patented the idea of using english words to encode numbers? Because I've seen patterns of 2-3 english words used in the past to communicate things like keys and confirmation codes.

<comment><USER6> Lobbying and bribery. Check out who is using them, its quite unnatural.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> How is this worthless scam still in business?

<comment><USER8> Moreover, how do they have so much code that they need k8s? Isn't their product just a proprietary function that converts lat/lon to three words and vice versa?

<comment><USER9> I agree and I'm always surprised to see how complex the backend of very simple businesses are.

I'm always amazed to find 10 Infra engineers and 15 backend engineers to maintain a very simple webApp for example.

<comment><USER10> 100%. This could be done entirely in JS on the client in probably < 5k characters.

<comment><USER9> Not sure if you are being sarcastic but they still need to keep their algorithm secret so client side wouldn't work.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Would you use a "Green" credit card? - <AUTHOR> I was thinking about a credit card that only funds "Green" purchases. Like "Led" light bulbs, "solar cells" etc. <comment><USER2> How would it benefit the user? Lower rates on these "green" purchases?</comment>


As far as I can tell, Orbitz thinks its customers are chumps - <AUTHOR> http://technologizer.com/2009/03/02/orbitz-sales-tactics-convenient-and-sleazy/

<comment><USER2> As far as I can tell, this author has a dataset of exactly 1 item.

Crap articles like this are what give bloggers a bad name.</comment>


Why today's young men are terrified of sex - <AUTHOR> https://nypost.com/2020/01/11/why-todays-young-men-are-terrified-of-sex/ <comment><USER2> Well, that's a wall they've built for themselves, between mobile-first interaction, porn addiction, me-first no-compromise individuality, infantilism, the body as "dirty", and neo-prudery of various forms...

People had more sex fun in the 60s and 70s without that baggage...

</comment><comment><USER3> I cannot figure it out. My son is still a virgin at 22 yrs, never has even dated a girl, not afraid of them, just does not seem to be interested in the drama and the games they want to play. Oh well, as years progress I figure he will become sought after by women since he is tall, thin, stable and a software engineer. Just hope he is meeting them at church rather than at bars. When I was 16, in 1970, myself and all the guys I knew were chasing girls like crazy all trying to get laid, by any means possible.</comment>


Nintendo Switch Lite Already Hacked - <AUTHOR> http://alugy.com/news/nintendo-switch-lite-already-hacked/ <comment><USER2> The endgame for all this is where we can easily run a payload from the SD card and then launch into an untethered homebrew channel or menu. The jig solution for the Switch was a start but it's impractical at best.</comment>


Texas Company Apologizes for Demolishing Wrong Home, Blames Google Maps - <AUTHOR> http://time.com/4273732/texas-demolition-company-apologizes/ <comment><USER2> I'm not surprised this happened.

In the past, whenever I put my address into Google Maps, it went to the correct location.

Probably sometime around October 2015, I noticed that if I put my address in Google Maps, it is now saying my house is located a block away and down a side street than where it actually is located.</comment>


Show HN: Plenary – A privacy focused RSS feed and offline reader app for Android - <AUTHOR> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spians.plenary <comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN,

We've created an RSS feed and offline reader app for android that doesn't show ads/track your activity. The app is a combination of a feature rich RSS reader and an offline article downloader (similar to read it later apps). The app has novel ways to add RSS feeds and has an offline first strategy.

Enjoy the app and let us know if you have any questions or what you'd like to see in coming versions!</comment>


Shark Tank increased our traffic by 1000x. Here's how we handled it - <AUTHOR> http://blog.lerner.co.il/scaling-up-a-site-for-shark-tank/ <comment><USER2> Nothing in this post is particularly interesting, from an engineering perspective. Anyone involved with web hosting should be able to deploy sites like this to this standard, if not better.</comment>


The Comfort Zone is of the Devil - <AUTHOR> http://www.founderdiaries.com/2011/04/the-comfort-zone-is-of-the-devil/

<comment><USER2> Please stop posting religious material on this website.

<comment><USER3> I am by no means religious, but there are things to be learned from posts like this and experiences like his.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Is there a Comma.ai but for health? - <AUTHOR> Allow me to expand on the weird question: comma.ai has innovated in a very regulated space by crowdsourcing data through sharing apps with enthusiastic users and using the driving data to build useful self driving models and technology.<p>What if someone did this, but for your own crowdsourced biometric data? I've long wanted a preventative health system, and an open source implementation like comma.ai would be ideal i think? <comment><USER2> I made something in this vein last year. My idea was to create a simple open src db that natively exported time series vectors, one hot encodings and so on. Built on postgres it did pchr and had strong anonymity/deniability for non pii. Because I can't think of a single EHR app that does this, the big expensive systems such as Cerner included. They mostly care about other stupid things like billing.

I lost the code due to a somewhat cavalier personal backup policy. Fortunately I don't sweat that kind of thing anymore because I found out that zfs is awesome. It was a fairly minor setback but I ended up deciding to do something else.

If you take it up I don't think it would be hard to find users, before I abandoned it I found it easy to recruit a few random quants and a handful of (non US) doctors for the trial.

You could probably get US doctors too. My thing converted data into a format that was consistent with some major open health datasets that have been released by eg. the states of Florida & Texas. If those datasets are HIPAA compliant then so would have been my thing. I thought that would have been a very persuasive argument for why doctors should use it. => "This thing can be used because if what it does is illegal then these widely published datasets by state government must also be illegal." Assuming everyone's consented all round of course.</comment>


Show HN: RPi PiZeroW first impressions and review - <AUTHOR> http://blog.alexellis.io/pizerow-first-impressions/ <comment><USER2> please don't submit blog posts as Show HN:

 _Show HN is for something you 've made that other people can play with. HN users can try it out, give you feedback, and ask questions in the thread._ [...]

 _Blog posts, sign-up pages, and fundraisers can 't be tried out, so they can't be Show HNs._ [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)</comment>


Mikado is the webs fastest template library for building user interfaces - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/nextapps-de/mikado/ <comment><USER2> It seems like in other tests it scores pretty evenly with many other frameworks/libraries: [https://krausest.github.io/js-framework- benchmark/current.ht...](https://krausest.github.io/js-framework- benchmark/current.html)

They say it's because of "The different to other benchmark implementations is, that the given task is not known before the data was available" here: [https://github.com/nextapps- de/mikado/blob/master/bench/READ...](https://github.com/nextapps- de/mikado/blob/master/bench/README.md#test-goal)

I'm not sure what they mean by that.</comment>