MacBook Pro Keyboard Drives Me Crazy - <AUTHOR> https://ryanbigg.com/2019/08/can-apple-please-design-a-laptop-that-has-a-functional-keyboard-for-the-love-of-all-that-is-precious <comment><USER3> The worst part is that I can tell this keyboard is actually having a detrimental effect on my typing abilities. Since being on these keyboards for years now, I've noticed that my typing speed has slowed, as I spend a significant amount of cognitive energy preparing to fix mistakes. The faster you type, the more annoying it is to go farther back to fix something. I'm not sure how to quantify the focus it steals from tasks or the anxiety it gives me, but I think they are also real. Not to mention it is infuriating to see some strange spelling error that is completely the keyboard's fault in a message or email you sent, making you look like an idiot.

The thread from @getify ( [https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832](https://twitter.com/getify/status/1165300052463480832) ) on having to wait _3 days_ for a repair, even though it is done in-store is truly infuriating. He is absolutely right that it makes no sense to have to leave a computer sitting around doing nothing, and you should just be able to be told to bring it back when your computer _would be_ 24 hours away from being repaired. The computer isn't being shipped anywhere, but Apple must still severely hamper your productivity on a product you spent _thousands of dollars on_.

Their constant reference to a "small minority of users experiencing this" in light of these huge delays at the store for a super-quick and simple fix has become insulting. I won't register anywhere as someone "experiencing this issue" since I don't have 3 days to not use my computer for a fix that will probably break again in months.

<comment><USER4> Does Apple not offer a loaner laptop during that period? If not, I'm quite unimpressed. These laptops are expected to be purchased by working professionals... what does Apple imagine is the customer workflow when an issue arises? Pause your work while the laptop is in repair?

<comment><USER5> They do not. I've heard their recommended advice if this is a problem is to fork out and purchase yet another laptop at your own cost, and return it within the return window.

<comment><USER6> So any bump on the aluminum that the store clerk doesn't approve of would cost you around $800? (since I assume the only way out would be selling it second- hand with a huge discount)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For everyone that hasn't seen it, reports are they've already decided to change the keyboard on forthcoming models. Discussion here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353148](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353148)

Edit: added "reports are"

<comment><USER3> Great, will they be offering free trade-ins? These are $2000 computers that have a _major_ broken component. Not to mention, the second a computer comes on sale that doesn't have this issue, the resale value of the current MacBooks will be disproportionately affected compared to previous revisions. So a nice double whammy: a miserable experience during its use, and an unusually small resale value afterwards.

<comment><USER8> This is a company that renders many of its perfectly working phones and tablets virtually worthless via centralized cloud account locking that is easily forgotten and left on. I doubt they care about resale value.

<comment><USER9> Doesn't Google do the same?

<comment><USER10> yes they do

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The worst thing is, the 2015 MBP keyboard was nearly perfect. The vast majority of the time I don't even use an external keyboard even when I am working at a desk and am plugged into monitor.

It's one thing to fail at designing something because it is hard and you haven't figured it out yet. It's quite another to regress to incompetence on something you already perfected.

<comment><USER12> The 2015 MBP is great! I have a spare one stockpiled.

I wish they would keep it basically as-is, replace one of the (generally unused) thunderbolt ports with a USB-C port, add their secure enclave T2 security chip, and update the CPU/chipset. Maybe even add FaceID...

<comment><USER11> All I want is 32G memory. Literally just do that, keep everything else identical and I will spend $3k to buy a new one.

<comment><USER13> I think the late 2011 unibody is the best Macbook they ever made. Easily opened up, with nearly everything replaceable. Pleasant to work with. Their last lineup that had a 17 inch model available. Only downside: noisy fans. I replaced them, bit that didn't fix it. Give me one with quieter fans and maybe a slightly more up to date processor, and I'm happy.

<comment><USER12> Frustratingly, to me at least, that one didn't have an HDMI port, requiring a dongle.

<comment><USER13> True, it didn't. I've got a couple of different dongles for it. I would really prefer my next laptop to have a real HDMI port.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Recently my b key started to exhibit the same symptoms on my 2016 model. I avoided having to use the keyboard at all costs because it's a serious impedance to my productivity and it still happened to me.

What's most infuriating is the realization that I bought a $3000 laptop with a keyboard that will break sooner or later and there's nothing you can do about it except sell it at a substantial loss. Even if I go through all the trouble of having it fixed under the extended waranty program I'm still without a laptop for at least a week and I know it will happen again because the design is fundamentally flawed.

<comment><USER15> I'm off the Apple train. I honestly don't trust them to make reliable hardware anymore. They've had three years to fix this mess but they have shown zero initiative or intention to do it.

Apple has consistently shown that it cares more about form over function. No one needs their laptops to be any thinner than they already are. And no one needs the useless, expensive touchbar.

<comment><USER16> > _Apple has consistently shown that it cares more about form over function. > No one needs their laptops to be any thinner than they already are_

Well, this depends.

Here's how a user put it: "I have to admit being a bit baffled by how nobody else seems to have done what Apple did with the Macbook Air - even several years after the first release, the other notebook vendors continue to push those ugly and _clunky_ things. Yes, there are vendors that have tried to emulate it, but usually pretty badly. I don't think I'm unusual in preferring my laptop to be thin and light. (...) A notebook that weighs more than a kilo is simply not a good thing (yeah, I'm using the smaller 11″ macbook air, and I think weight could still be improved on, but at least it's very close to the magical 1kg limit)." \- Linus Torvalds

(Later he stopped using Apple laptops for the even lighter/thinner chromebooks).

<comment><USER17> For a 13 inch or smaller laptop it is understandable to strike a balance between size, battery and specifications.

A 15 inch laptop is never going to be portable or easy to carry. We don't care about thickness. Just make it a bit thicker to add a full-travel keyboard.

<comment><USER18> Thin laptops do suck. Give us ports and keyboards! Is there a single instance of high-quality laptop on the market with a generous key travel these days? Thinkpads don't quite reach the feel of MBP 2015 keyboard for me.

(Typing this on a 101-key NMB I restored which, I think, is close to typing nirvana.)

<comment><USER13> > _" Thinkpads don't quite reach the feel of MBP 2015 keyboard for me."_

They don't? I was under the impression that Thinkpads generally had the best keyboards. They get praised for it all the time. Are current Thinkpad keyboards actually worse than 2015 Macbook ones?

Are keyboards a piece of technology that's getting worse instead of better as time goes on?

<comment><USER19> ThinkPads have better keyboards than most, but Lenovo decided to join the chiclet camp a few years back and the recent keyboards haven't been as good as ThinkPads from eight or ten years ago.

<comment><USER13> Is it just the chiclet form? I thought it was mostly the technology underneath the key: the travel, resistance, etc, that matters. Those can still be good or bad regardless of the shape of the keys themselves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I switched to a Thinkpad after I had the horror of using a new Macbook. Running Ubuntu is lovely, so much so that for a developer there is little reason to be using a Macbook anymore. You can get a lot more bang for the buck using a Thinkpad AND have a functional keyboard.

Apple should be very worried. Once they loose the developers, users won't be long to follow.

<comment><USER21> There are four of us at work that use Linux--the other 30 or so all have MacBooks. There are no converts, either you started a Linux person, or you started a Mac person.

My little Linux enclave has some theories about the cognitive effect of all the polish that you find on Apple products, but we can't separate our biasses from good science, especially because there's nobody to ask that knows both worlds.

So I have a question for all of the converts out there: Does switching between MacOS and Linux have any effect on how you think?

<comment><USER22> I switched to apple ecosystem because I wanted the UX that just works reliably. MacOS is for me linux with ultrapolished DE. Bonus is that I can work on iOS apps and use Apple Photos which is way better for me than Google Photos. I used Arch Linux for many years before MacOS. I also switched to iPhone from Android. Wanted a phone that works in the same ecosystem (photos...) and is fast, reliable and does not change ux very much with new releases. On android I tinkered with the phone too much, various companies have different ux, and I started to dislike Google very much after they started randomly shutting down services as they like and one year after introducing them.

<comment><USER23> To be fair, you started with arch which requires some attention.

Most professional users use Ubuntu since it's fairly polished and "just works".

<comment><USER22> I had more problems with Ubuntu (especially after big updates) than Arch. For me Arch, after initial setup, was the closest to "just work" linux of all the distros I tried, and I tried them alot over the years. And when something breaks in Arch, I find it much easier to fix problems with Arch than other distros because they keep things as close to upstream as possible and have great wiki.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > If Apple releases their new Macs with an identical keyboard, then I'm > ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book or something > similar. Whatever it is, I'll make sure to pick a laptop that has a god > damned functional keyboard.

Same here, MBP keyboards are unbearable. Trying to develop on OSX has become a hassle. Gotta jump through hoops to get gdb to work. Windows with WSL on a Surface Book feels extremely tempting as of late.

I could grab a copy of Windows 10 LTSC and not have to get bothered by untimely updates, Cortana, other bloatware and even telemetry.

<comment><USER25> Go give windows a try and report back.

I've been using Windows for the past couple of weeks and, granted maybe I haven't really given it a chance, using it after using Macs for 10+ years is not great.

Maybe developing on macOS has become a hassle (I don't see that, but sure), but doing _everything_ on Windows is a hassle. Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file. _Displaying UI at a reasonable scale_. Think what you want of macOS 'recently', but Windows is just full of bets and decisions that show they're not really concerned about the user experience.

<comment><USER26> > Taking a screenshot. Opening the right file

Former is PrtScn key on my keyboard. Microsoft ships Snipping Tools and lately Snip n Sketch for screenshots - never had any issues with either.

Latter - not sure what you mean - opening the right file as in setting default program to open a file? That's easy enough and it's the best experience on Windows.

<comment><USER25> Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?

I /remembered "Snipping Tool", so I searched for "Snip" and launched that, and it shows a menu that says like "Snipping Tool is deprecated, use Snip n Sketch" so you click that and a new app opens (but old one stays open as well) and you take your screenshot and then its open in a window that you have to go and save.

I know I'm biased because its what I'm used to for 10 years, but on Mac I just have the (insane) cmd + shift + 4 shortcut engrained that'll snip a part of my screen and save to my Desktop. It's just so much quicker than Windows.

re opening file: I miss Quicklook to make sure I have the right file selected. Also miss being able to drag a file into an open dialogue box to select it to open.

<comment><USER27> > Press print screen and it does... I'm not sure what?

Copies it into the buffer, silently. No notification, nothing. Great UX.

In Ubuntu it's even better, it actually saves it as an image file (and does the annoying shutter effect). But the repeat key is not turned off... so if by any chance you hold it down by mistake, thinking it was the right ctrl, oh boy, you get a shitstorm of shutter effects and dozens of screenshots in the pictures folder. Very annoying. I don't know which I hate more, Ubuntu or Windows.

<comment> ben-schaaf Out of interest, what keyboard has a Print-Screen key next to ctrl?

<comment><USER27> Thinkpad T480s, goes space, alt, prtsc, ctrl.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> The monotony of this complaint is driving me crazy.

It's really simple.

1\. If you don't care about MacOS, and want a different keyboard, please buy a Lenovo Carbon X1 and leave us happy Macbook Pro users in peace.

2\. If your keyboard breaks, Apple will replace it free. The newer gen keyboards generally don't break.

3\. If you really can't type on this keyboard and you really love MacOS, there are lots of decent thin Bluetooth keyboards. Microsoft has a great one. It's a small monetary sacrifice you'll need to make for sticking with MacOS. i.e. something we already do when we buy Macbook Pros ;)

I am getting tired of being sneered at for "clearly not understanding my own interests" because I like my Macbook Pro, have never had a keyboard issue, I LIKE TYPING on the keyboard, and would buy another one.

I do hope they change the keyboard radically in the next release so that the laptop posse finds another issue to rage at.

<comment><USER29> > 1\. If you don't care about MacOS, and want a different keyboard, please buy > a Lenovo Carbon X1 and leave us happy Macbook Pro users in peace.

I would gladly get a Carbon X1 or an XPS 15 if my work didn't require me to use macOS (or better: if Apple didn't require me to use macOS to build iOS apps). Sadly I can't and so I'm too stuck with a 2018 MacBook Pro and its crappy keyboard

> 2\. If your keyboard breaks, Apple will replace it free. The newer gen > keyboards generally don't break.

Author's model is, like mine, quite new since it's the 2018 one. It still sucks and it still breaks. Also, I don't want to wait N days for Apple to fix the keyboard.

> 3\. If you really can't type on this keyboard and you really love MacOS, > there are lots of decent thin Bluetooth keyboards. Microsoft has a great > one. It's a small monetary sacrifice you'll need to make for sticking with > MacOS. i.e. something we already do when we buy Macbook Pros ;)

My company has already shelled out a couple grands for this machine, suggesting to use a Bluetooth keyboard is offensive given the price point of this laptop and how cumbersome and uncomfortable using an external keyboard on a laptop is.

> I am getting tired of being sneered at for "clearly not understanding my own > interests" because I like my Macbook Pro, have never had a keyboard issue, I > LIKE TYPING on the keyboard, and would buy another one.

I'll be honest: I don't care how you use your MacBook and I'm ok if you don't care how other people use them. But with a machine at this price point, which is also labeled _Pro_, an issue like this _after three product releases_ is completely unacceptable

<comment><USER30> >> after three product releases

Four. Don't forget the 2015 MacBook Retina.

<comment><USER29> You're right, I've had completely forgotten that one!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I used to be the guy saying that this wasn't such a big deal, not worth the fuss. Until it happened to me. I have issues with spaces (random spaces inserted here and there). It's not bad enough that I have to get my computer fixed urgently, but it is annoying. It's not what you expect from such a high- end device. I haven't taken the time to see what's Apple answer to these problems, but I do hope that this will be fixed free of charge without them keeping my computer for too long...

> I'm ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book

I'm not to that point yet. I'm not an apple fanboy, and I'm not really happy about the direction Apple is taking. But I still prefer Mac OS to Linux or Windows, and I've never seen a non-apple laptop that I've found particularly attractive. And they usually have their own issues too.

Let's hope they'll fix this particular issue.

</comment><comment><USER32> OK, so my theory on that is that it was all Jony Ive fault. Back in the days when Jobs was still around he was a natural counter balance to Ive. He wanted everything to be not only 'beautiful' but most notably just working. Ive was great source of new design ideas for him and he was usually throwing away bad ones (from technical point of view) and leaving the god ones (of course there was some mistakes but over all it was working just fine).

At some point Ive became to have major role in making decisions of what's going in to production. Jobs had serious health issues, couldn't keep his eye on everything and finally he passed away which made Jony the guy who was making decisions pretty much on his own. I bet that trashcan MacPro, butterfly keyboards, "thinness war", sticking for too long to one design etc., those are all his ideas that he pushed trough.

Quite recently Apple realized that leaving everything in Ives hands is not that good idea after all and I have a feeling that redesigned MacPro and decision to ditch butterfly keyboards from newest MBPs was forced on Ive and that's the real reason behind him becoming external contractor for Apple. They couldn't fire him completely but they needed changes and Jony didn't liked restrictions on his design choices so they've split.

As for the future, we already saw that story in the past and as we know history like to repeat itself. In the next 2-3 years Apple products will become more in line of what users wants. They finally started to listen to people and it will result with better products, at least in short term. Times has changed and I hope that history will not repeat itself in the next step when, like in the 90s, Apple will become shadow of it's former self, trying to build products based on financial statistics and polls and not on engineering and design talent of their employees. After all we think we know what we want but in reality there will be products and solutions that we can't imagine right know and no amount of polls will give the answer to a question what's next, what's behind the horizon.

<comment><USER33> I want to believe this, and as there is no evidence one way or the other, it sounds good enough that it makes me hopeful for future products.

My question is, what did Ive do that was truly great? I honestly don't know and his name is mostly brought up with respect to designs that didn't pan out. What did he do that everyone seems to respect him as an uber-designer?

I do think, for a while at least, apple's design was eye catching and cool. But for a long long time now it's been stagnant and copycatted all over the industry. So much so, that it doesn't really stand out any more. That's all fine, but it makes me wonder what Ive has been doing for the last 5-10 years, because not much has changed.

<comment><USER32> Pretty much everything what Apple made since original iMac G3 was Ive design and I think the biggest thing that he did was that original iMac G3.

The story is pretty simple, Ive became Apple employee around 92 so before Jobs big comeback. Back in those days he had soft spot for translucent plastics. This showed beautifully in his first serious design for Apple, Apple Newton eMate. When Jobs came back to Apple he was looking for cool designs and he felt in love with Ives designs and translucent plastics (Jobs was crazy on making even PCB look good and idea of showing that work to the clients was appealing to him). So that's how arguably one of the biggest tech bromances started.

So yeah iMac was the design that brought back Apple to living. Other most notable designs was iPod, iPhone, iMac G4, MB, MBP, slim iMacs, list goes on and on. The difference is that all those designs was under supervision of Jobs. So ideas like charging port on Magic Mouse wouldn't fly under Jobs supervision (and they didn't) but when Jobs passed away then suddenly those ideas went into production.

The story of how they met is from Jobs and Ives biographies, I highly recommend reading at least Jobs biography by Isaacson

<comment><USER33> Thanks for the background. Ive's wikipedia page didn't have much.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I recently upgraded from a 2015 MBP to the latest 2019 MBP, and I actually think it surpasses the older model in almost every way. So far I haven't experienced any of the keyboard issues that people have been reporting, although I'm aware that this model has a membrane that was put in to prevent those issues. My only gripe is the need to have a dongle to connect HDMI and USB 2.0, but I still wouldn't go back to the 2015 over it.

On a side note, I bought a new iPhone SE to see how it compared to the iPhone XS because HN raves about the SE so much. It was pretty underwhelming and there was just absolutely no way I could justify replacing the XS with it.

<comment><USER35> We are the silent majority (I think). I'm also very happy with the new keyboard and actually came to hate the old 2015 model keyboard.

I live in a relatively dusty place/country that you can see grain dust on top of the laptop at the end of the week. I was concerned reading reports before buying the laptop. But now it's almost a year and the keyboard is fine.

My guess is:

\- Some models have problems.

\- Some people are not comfortable with the keyboard and thus make typing mistakes?

Does it have no cons though? Not really. The trackpad is huge and sometimes I mistakenly click with my palm. The Touchbar is sometimes useful but also slower than typing on a regular keyboard (esc/sound/luminosity).

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Let me list the problems or things I don't like about my 2019 13 inch MBP:

1\. Screen flickers occasionally

2\. Turning on bluetooth can make the keys stuck making it impossible to type anything in order to unlock my laptop (turning off bluetooth fixes this)

3\. I hate the feel of the touchbar on my fingers.

4\. The touchpad is too large and I often accidentally touch it and do something I didn't want to do.

5\. The mic and sound have recently gone wonky. When I'm calls, the mic automatically mutes every few minutes and a message appears saying the mic couldn't be found. A loose connection somewhere?

All this for a $2000+ laptop. Luckily it's a work laptop so I didn't pay out of pocket, but still.

I still have a 2014 15 inch MBP that I still love and use. I wish I could use it for work.

<comment><USER37> I have the same issue as you with mic and sound on my brand new macbook air. It seems restarting fixes the issue for a few hours so it might be a software issue but regardless it'a. huge problem for me...

Unfortunately my trusty 2013 mbp died so had to buy that as a replacement (I used to replace my laptop for the top of the line apple laptop every 3 years but didn't in this case due to the keyboard)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Switched to a thinkpad x1 carbon just over a month ago, coming from years of macbooks. I'm over the moon. The trackpad isn't as good, but all the things I use the trackpad for are easily replaced with keyboard shortcuts.

<comment><USER39> Same! I installed the Pop! OS Linux distro and everything seems fine. It doesn't have the battery life I'd hope, but I have a terminal and 32GB memory for less than a new Macbook with less memory. The keyboard works well.

<comment><USER40> I'm clinging to my 2015 MBP until it breaks, and it scared me a few times recently. So I bought a backup x230 for ~$100 just in case, and loaded Pop!.

To be honest, I think I like Pop! better than OSX. I hadn't used linux distros before because I'm not trying to spend my time fiddling around with the OS, I want things to just work and get out of my way. Pop! does. It's got that _miryokuteki hinshitsu._ And the ability to use exactly the same packages as our ubuntu webservers has already helped me debug a buildpack issue.

I'll certainly consider supporting System76 when I'm next looking for a brand- new computer.

<comment><USER41> PopOS is fantastic, and if you're looking to stay in the Ubuntu domain it's by far the best version out there. But your tastes sound a lot like mine, so I'd like to throw out a recommendation for Manjaro, it's incredibly well-polished and the rolling-release is great. It'll likely run a bit faster too since it's Arch-based.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Apple is replacing these keyboards for free...

[https://support.apple.com/en-ca/keyboard-service-program- for...](https://support.apple.com/en-ca/keyboard-service-program-for-mac- notebooks)

I get that it is hugely inconvenient to go without your laptop for any amount of time - I depend on mine for work at a 2 person startup, so really I do get it! But if you are this fed up with it, then I'd say go for it.

I finally bit the bullet and found a local certified apple repair place (NOT THE APPLE STORE) that allowed me to take my laptop home with me after they ran diagnostics (10 minutes) and ordered the new keyboard.

I emphasize not the apple store because they will try to keep your laptop for the 24-48 hours it takes your replacement keyboard to ship.

The repair actually took around 3 hours, which I spent playing with my kid! Woot! The place I went through text me when the keyboard came in and then again when my laptop was ready to go - was super easy.

Because of the way the keyboard is bundled into the laptop, they have to replace the battery too - so that was an added bonus.

edit - just want to add that the replacement has had no issues ~1 month in (++spelling)

<comment><USER43> I wish I knew this before I lost my machine for 4 days last year. My replacement has mostly held up too—just a few blasts of compressed air here and there.

<comment><USER42> I am pretty sure this policy alone is keeping the lights on for this particular company. It is a serious bummer the way apple handles it through the apple stores.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Why would anyone buy a 2018 MacBook? This problem has been in the news for over a year. While they plan to fix it, they haven't yet.

I had a late 2016 model with a defective keyboard out of the box. Finally had it repaired mid-2018 (which took over a month), and the new one died within days.

It'll be many years before I consider even accepting another free MacBook from work, much less buy one. I don't know if Apple realizes just how badly they messed up. I used to have an iPad, iPhone, home MacBook, and work MacBook, and even stupidly bought their overpriced Thunderbolt display out of some deranged brand loyalty. Now the only Apple product I still use is my iPad (because it hasn't completely died yet), and when this goes, that'll be it.

<comment><USER28> I have a 2017 Macbook Pro and love it, and have never had the keyboard issues. This is the thing: there are _millions_ of happy Macbook Pro customers that don't hang out on hacker news.

I then spilled wine on my keyboard, they replaced the top case and it, still no problems.

Yes, they should fix the keyboard. But I don't think they've screwed up as badly as people think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I think Jony was shown the door over this debacle, and I wouldn't be surprised if Phil is next. When is the last time you've seen Phil on stage at an event?

He's the one who introduced these keyboards and praised them up and down, he's probably going to take the fall for them as well.

I have money burning a hole in my pocket right now to buy a MBP but I can't do it. It is literally a defective product. Shame on Apple for selling a productive they know is not going to work well for their customers.

<comment><USER46> > When is the last time you've seen Phil on stage at an event?

The September event?

<comment><USER47> I was going to say — nearly every recent event.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I'm glad that others are voicing the same issues I'm experiencing. Sometimes I wonder if I'm taking crazy pills.

My solution has been to place an Apple bluetooth keyboard -on top- of my 15" MBP keyboard and that seems to work pretty well, but wow, it shouldn't have come to this...

<comment><USER49> Can't believe I haven't thought of this! I've been using an Apple BT keyboard with my MBP but never thought to stack it right on top of the butterfly keyboard. I can confirm that it fits the 13" MPB, just like your 15"!

<comment><USER49> Update: my Apple BT keyboard (which is many years old -- it takes 3 AA batteries, not 2) slightly covers the top of the trackpad on my 13" MBP. This means that the palm rejection algorithm does not work as well. I may be able to get it to work for me by just adjusting how I hold my hands when typing, but it's not a clear home-run with my smaller laptop and possibly larger keyboard. I would seriously consider getting a smaller BT keyboard to make this work, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I don't know anyone who was a real TTY user who likes <ESC> on touchbar.

I don't know any EMACS user who likes <ESC> on touchbar.

If I do the join over these and anyone else I ask, I actually don't know anyone who likes <ESC> on touchbar.

I think Apple took a long standing market acceptance in the community I live in, and basically trashed it, for lipgloss.

I expect to move to a Lenovo Carbon X1, with qualms.

<comment><USER51> FWIW, most people I know remap caps lock to ESC for ergonomic reasons, so for them removing the physical escape key was a no-op. I realize that's a vanishing minority of normal people though :)

<comment><USER21> You're describing the first step on a rather slippery slope. I started by making Caps into Esc... Now I press enter with my right palm and escape with my left thumb and people make fun of me when they see my workstation.

[http://www.keyboard-layout- editor.com/#/gists/9be130e4c9b503...](http://www.keyboard-layout- editor.com/#/gists/9be130e4c9b503317619)

<comment><USER51> What's the physical hardware you are running these on?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> For what it is worth. Key repeats as described is a hardware problem. I had the same issue with the letter H. Either duplicates or a random H mid- whatever.

Every single macbook ive owned in the last 3 years has had some defect. Either a dead motherboard. Broken keyboard. Or both. Basically it is build like a piece of shit.

Had I any option I would get a cheaper better faster windows pc in a heartbeat. Sure it'll be 0.5lbs heavier. But by god it won't have that shitty giant touchpad that won't let me type without fucking up my wrists.

<comment><USER53> I downloaded Unshaky to help this out:

[https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky](https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky)

You can set custom timings per key, which is useful for particularly difficult keys.

<comment><USER54> It's good there are 3rd party solutions and OSS solutions such as this, but on principle, if you pay way over the odds for Apple hardware, you _really_ shouldn't have these problems in the first place

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Off-topic, but Ryan, your name brings me back to 2013 when I was just learning Ruby on Rails and you were snarkily answering my dumb questions on the #rubyonrails IRC channel. But seriously, thank you so much. Learned a ton from that channel, gained a career, and now I run my own software consultancy. And since no one learns Rails anymore we can make $$$!

<comment><AUTHOR> Um, thanks? I think? ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> My personal MBP wishlist:

* the new keyboard (2015 style or better)

* no touchbar (F keys, please)

* magsafe (with cables wrapped in something stronger than a tortilla)

* battery capacity that maxes out the FAA limit

* serious graphics (as an option)

* better screen coating that doesn't flake off or scratch easily

* an even darker gray / charcoal color option

* finally... no fingerprint reader (they're useful, but I'd rather have the added cost spent elsewhere and keep the surface clean - it takes me less than 3 seconds to type my 30 char password, unlike phones where this would be impossible)

———

If Apple can deliver on all the points above, I will spend $3k. If not, I'll just continue until my 2011 and 2015 MBPs are dead and then move onto something else (some linux notebook). I've been waiting for 2 years to upgrade.

<comment><USER57> All great options but the company has moved on from us users who clamor for practical features it seems. I bet if I sharpen the lid of the next mbp I could shave with it at least.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> +1 they're horrible. I feel like I wasted $3k and if I could return it, I would.

</comment><comment><USER59> I got a July 2019 MBP after having suffered from a totally unusable keyboard in a mid-2018 MBP one. In theory the July 2019 model has a 4th generation butterfly keyboard, whereas the 2018 ones were on 3rd gen - and despite using it heavily over the last month, I haven't had problems yet... apart from the backspace & O keys getting briefly sticky (presumably due to some dirt getting underneath). However, unlike on the 2018 one, holding the keyboard upside down and blowing at close range at the keys whilst toggling them managed to rapidly fix the problem.

I also haven't had any double presses yet (which were the plague of the 2018 one - the symptoms were identical to [https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple- still-hasnt-fixed-its-mac...](https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt- fixed-its-macbook-keyboard-problem/)). So, anecdotally, so far it seems that the 2019 edition is a marked improvement. I'm pretty sure by this point on the 2018 one I was having to go back and fix typos in almost every sentence.

</comment><comment><USER60> I want Apple's screen and trackpad and Lenovo's keyboard, ports, and cooling.

<comment><USER61> Especially the trackpad and its gestures. I have a surface book at work and the trackpad is just dreadful compared to MacBook. Everything else is pretty ok

<comment><USER62> I switched when the surface book 1 came out (now on a surface book 2) but man I still miss the customizable trackpad gestures I had on my macbook pro. I don't recall the program I used but it allowed for gestures like three fingers with the index tapping to move to the next chrome tab to the left etc. I have been trying for years to replicate that in windows :(

<comment><USER63> Was it BetterTouchTool?

<comment><USER61> That made the TouchBar less annoying on my 2019 MBP

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I tried the most recent MacBook Pro keyboard over a weekend in September. Absolutely terrible experience, not to mention the Touch Bar. I hope my 2015 MBPro doesn't die on my before Apple fixes this.

</comment><comment><USER65> I had an interview where they sat one of these things in front of me and had me write some code. Had never used one before that. I probably looked like a total idiot to them. I did not get an offer.

</comment><comment><USER66> So he's writing today about last year's keyboard, when the laptops introduced a few months ago have a different keyboard already?

I mean, good for him, but his complaint is literally a duplicate of what other people said about the butterfly keyboards for a couple years. I'm not aware yet of these complaints continuing to apply with the newest rev.

Obviously Apple fucked up on these, and obviously they're trying to fix it / make it right, but this particular post seems, well, uninteresting and unworthy of HN.

<comment><USER23> So basically "buy the newer hardware and shut up"?

<comment><USER66> My point is that

(a) he's on very, very well trod ground, and

(b) Apple has already taken steps to correct the problem he's yelling about.

So what's the point of his post?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> I'm late to the party, but I've personally had my keyboard replaced at least 3 times, the logic board replaced 2x, the display replaced 1x, and the entire unit replaced entirely (all under warranty, albeit AppleCare+).

To say that I regret selling my "tortoise" of a 2015 MBP is an understatement.

<comment><USER68> Wow, running a MacBook Air from 2013 here and just replaced the battery myself recently. It's like new now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> It's funny, I resisted an upgrade until my 2015 MBP became unusable, in part because I dreaded the keyboard. I do miss physical function keys, but I actually like the more clacky & tactile butterfly keys.

Maybe I'll feel differently once I finally manage to work a crumb underneath one of them.

<comment><USER70> Yeah, the feel of the butterfly mechanism is subjectively excellent. I can type faster on it than even my mech keyboard at home, which is a very impressive feat. But my MacBook is going in for its second keyboard repair in a year soon, so...

They're apparently ditching the butterfly keyboard in the next redesign. Bittersweet as someone who loves the keyfeel, but I guess it's for the best so here's hoping.

<comment><USER57> The new scissor design is said to feel more like the butterfly but with more travel rather than reverting to the old scissor design, if that makes you feel any better.

<comment><USER70> It does :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> My experience has been similar. I upgraded from the 2014 MBP (which is a glorious machine) to 2018. The day I got it, I realized it had issues with the keyboard (several keys repeating). Took it back to the store, got a new device. The issue wasn't as widely acknowledged back then. When I complained to the store that I was experiencing the same issue again, the gave me yet another device, same issue. Went back to the store and they got annoyed at me. They complained that none of their other customers reported this issue.

They accused me of installing apps that were causing this issue although I had nothing of that sort installed. I am a web developer and like to think that I know computers well enough to not install sketchy apps. I had installed all the same apps that were in my 2014 MBP so when I confronted the store, they just gave me a random reason and sent me away. I got so fed up trying to convince these people that there was an issue. I ended up buying a Magic Keyboard and using that instead.

Mind you, all this happened in India where Apple doesn't have a direct retail experience. 3rd party retailers have zero training procedures in place. Their staff isn't nearly as knowledgeable as their US counterparts about the products they are selling. This whole keyboard fiasco has been my worst Apple experience.

</comment><comment><USER60> I wonder how much time Jony Ive personally spends typing. I'm betting it is a very small amount.

<comment><USER57> The man probably doesn't even own a macbook other than to look at it sitting pretty on a shelf. Steve would have thrown a mbp out of a window if it doubled a key on him. Wouldn't be surprised if Ive is an ipad + pencil only loonie. Certainly would explain a lot.

<comment><USER72> I sometimes wonder if bringing Scott Forestall back in would fix things, even temporarily. He wasn't necessarily pleasant but then again, neither was Steve.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> My hands hurt when typing on this keyboard. I've never had this problem with a Mac laptop in the better part of two decades.

<comment><USER74> Same! I have legitimate joint pain in my index and middle fingers because of this thing. Have to use an external keyboard now for anything but a few minutes.

It's so bad!

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> I know this topic has been done to death on HN, but this remains a persistent concern.

I've had two keyboard replacements. If you haven't had it done, it's a "topcase" replacement - which involved a good half of the machine. It's a big change and I was told to allow for 5 business days as well.

My Macbook Pro is out of the 4 year replacement window - and the Spacebar is starting to fail.

I've owned every form-factor of the Macbook Pro - won't be next time round.

<comment><USER49> > _My Macbook Pro is out of the 4 year replacement window - and the Spacebar > is starting to fail._

If you're out of the 4-year replacement window, then your MBP must not be a 2016 or newer model.

<comment><USER75> My mistake - I meant to say "coming out of". I got the very first of the 2016 (and the touchbar) models.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER76> I went to Staples (store chain here in Canada) to play with the new butterfly keyboard shortly after it first came out in the MBP years ago, and the MBP they had on display had a non-functional Enter key (it would register once every 2-4 clicks). What is really shocking to me, however, is that it took so long for them to announce they were ditching their flawed design. This delay is a good reflection of the Apple brand mindset at work...

</comment><comment><USER21> My boss has one of those. She usually goes back and fixes her mistakes, but when she gets stressed and in a hurry she gives up on the corrections.

We just pretend that she's drunk in these cases. Or that this is just how the cool kids (with the expensive gadgets) talk these days. Or that the stress of the job has uncovered a long lost speech impediment.

Overall, I think the keyboard has been a really positive thing for team cohesion.

</comment><comment><USER77> Mis-types, reliability, etc. aside, I just don't like the keyboard. Normal chiclets are bad enough, but the mac is worse. Essentially zero travel, and I find my self bottoming out each stroke and typing what is evidently much too hard. I got used to chiclets okay (though I still use a full mechanical when I can), but the mac keyboard is too much. I feel like I'm typing on a touch- screen, or worse, that I'm some how playing with a toy (rather than a machine built to do work).

I guess a lot of Apple's products give me that feeling these days. Ios 7 design probably didn't help much. Maybe with Jony Ive gone, it will get better? I like things that feel solid. These days, macs just don't. I probably shouldn't beat on just apple here, though; it seems to be a broader trend for the worse.

</comment><comment><USER16> Have been using Macs since 2004. I like the new MBPs in every other aspect except: the touch strip and the keyboard.

Since I use an external monitor, I don't use the MBPr keyboard, but an external Magic keyboard (Apple) which is excellent (even prefer it to several mechanical ones I have).

But the MBPr keyboard is crap by any measure...

Hopefully there are some rumors that the 2019 MBPr 16" model will change it. There's also a new patent about a different mechanism (with light based actuators) that looks nice if the feel is good.

[https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/08/27/apple-may-not- use...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/08/27/apple-may-not-use- mechanical-switches-in-a-future-macbook-keyboard-at-all)

</comment><comment><USER78> Funny. My boss, who has a Lenovo X1 Carbon, was just telling me how envious he was of the far superior keyboard on his wife's brand new Apple laptop.

<comment><USER66> I have a brand-new Macbook Pro. I actually _love_ the keyboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> Whatt are you talking about? My keyboaord works jst fine.

</comment><comment><USER80> > For the most part, it sits on one of two desks that I use or it sits on my > lap on the train.

If this is the case, do yourself a favor and go and buy two ergonomic screens, keyboards and mice - one for each location.

It'll save you becoming a hunched over laptop gremlin.

<comment><AUTHOR> I already have a mechanical keyboard for one of the two desks, and in the new year I'll only have _one_ desk, so I'll move that keyboard over to there. I don't mind the trackpad, but I've considered getting one of those vertical mice.

<comment> munk-a I think using an external keyboard should just be a general assumption for laptop usage. The built ins are terrible due to the misaligned priorities of manufacturers both in terms of key depth and wear resistance. I type strong, maybe even stronk, so keyboards have a definite lifetime to them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> My tip, which seems to be working for me so far: I upgraded from a 2015 to a 2018 a few months ago, and _immediately_ added a silicone keyboard cover that I got on Amazon for $8 or so.

It's really thin and doesn't bother me, but the key thing is that it keeps everything out of the keyboard. So far, my keys continue to all work just fine. It could be luck, but it could also be that no dust or anything is getting trapped in the butterfly switches.

I will give the disclaimer that much of the time I'm typing on a bluetooth keyboard, but I still get quite a bit of use out of the built-in keyboard as well.

</comment><comment><USER82> I'm surprised people are still buying MBPs.

When the 2016 models were announced I bought a 2015 model. It had a great keyboard but I sold it because the 4th gen CPU ran too hot in my tropical climate and it was rather bulky.

I moved to a 5K iMac instead. Best computer I've ever owned. I still use an old 2014 13'' MBP on the rare occasions I'm not working from home, or when I'm on the couch (like right now).

Apple are not idiots and they will fix this at some point, but the Mac is about 10% of their revenue so they are in no hurry.

</comment><comment><USER83> This is the sole reason I recently upgraded to a souped up 2015 MBP: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B07WCCW4GS/R50D0AGJ5M872](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/B07WCCW4GS/R50D0AGJ5M872)

I expect this to last me a decent handful of years; if Apple hasn't gotten their shit together by then, no matter how much I otherwise like their hardware, I'll have no choice but to pick something else and switch back to Linux.

<comment><USER84> "Not currently available" on the product listing.

<comment><USER83> That particular one seems to go in and out of stock frequently (there are a bunch of others), but what I paid was $680.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> I've been a huge fan of Apple hardware but I can't take it any longer. I've switched to Windows for a few months and it has really improved. WSL2 is pretty awesome!

</comment><comment><USER86> Hey, HN can we stop with all those articles on how bad the MacBook keyboard is or why do you leave Medium for X (insert X as your new platform).

There are now 100 versions of this story and we know already how bad the product it is.

I believe that if you're going to buy a new MacBook Pro, then you are going to meet the same problem again and again. Sometimes Apple users are masochists in this way: keeping buying products from the same OEM like a religion.

Change manufacturer and see if it goes better.

<comment><USER87> I'll upvote every one of these stories. I have a macbook pro and use external keyboard 95% of the time. But the built in one (and touchbar) is awful. Maybe someone at Apple will read hacker news someday and realize it.

Or not and I'll just keep using this piece of crap. C'est la vie

<comment><USER88> \-- it's amazing how these little details matter because they're right there affecting your quality of life every minute of every day and everyone is telling you to grin and bear it

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> I just got an old one (2015) out of the closet at work when they offered me the new one.

</comment><comment><USER90> Completely agree here. Apple sacrificed the user experience in pursuit of thinness of the laptop. I just got my first Windows laptop in years because I didn't want to put up with the keyboard, touchbar, etc.

Windows also now includes a Linux subsystem that works great as far as I can tell (though I'm by no means a power user), so I don't feel as though I've sacrificed anything.

</comment><comment><USER91> I just started in a new role a few months ago and was given a new MBP. I used an older one in my last role and loved it, but the new ones I simply can't stand. For starters the keyboards feel cheap, I needed 2 - 3 dongles just to plug in all my external monitors, keyboard and mouse. I gave up on the apple mouse since when it dies it's belly up due to where the charging cable is, that's simply poor design.

I was also always swapping out dongles for my monitors as it was 50/50 if the monitor would come back online.

I could go on and on, but the short of it is I went to our IT team and told them I wanted a Win10 machine. I was the first person, hopefully not the last, to turn in an Apple laptop for a windows, I became an instant legend.

TBH, I don't miss it at all. I've got WSL and can do everything I did on that MBP on this ThinkPad. It's nice to have plenty of ports without ugly dongles and a proper docking station.

IMO, Apple's lost it since Job's passing.

</comment><comment><USER92> 2015 MBP is the best MBP out there.

I bought it when the new 2016 model came out. Glad that I didn't stick with the new trend. Definitely a fad.

</comment><comment><USER93> Apple seems to be in a bit of a lull lately. None of their phones have really impressed. Stuff like this. And then airpod 2 being airpod 1 with a promise of contains more magic inside that you can't see. And the 1000 dollar stand?

Their recent focus on additional privacy is welcome but not much use if the gear is underwhelming and overpriced.

</comment><comment><USER94> The Macbook Pro display drives me crazy. It takes just a small squeeze for the liquid-crystal particles to dislodge themselves and form an orange blob that moves around with gravity, leaving blue splotches where they used to be .. and yet Apple refuse to acknowledge this is a design problem, and pushes it back to the customer as "user fault: didn't use a case".

I'm just waiting for enough people to have this happen to them, complain about it, and it becomes a class action situation .. like so many other failures of Apple quality management in the last decade. The last time this happened, Apple ended up replacing my whole system - because they'd misapplied thermal paste to their CPU's, on top of using poor quality GPU's from Nvidia ..

At some point, this is going to be a problem for Apple. At a Trillion-dollar market cap, I wonder how soon, however ..

</comment><comment><USER95> I have a 2019 MBP and love everything except the keyboard. It's literally the only thing that holds it back from being the best laptop on the market in my opinion. Whatever sauce Apple puts into optimization and stability seriously pays off, because even with the garbage keyboard I still dropped $1300 for it.

</comment><comment><USER17> I got a mid-2015 MacBook Pro 15" because of the keyboard problems. The screen is beautiful and the processor is fast enough for Java development using IntelliJ.

Too bad I can't take this laptop with me when I'm flying because it's on the no-fly list.

My options for Apple laptops are pretty much zero right now.

<comment><USER96> Doesn't Apple fix the no-fly problem for free, since the only ones affected by the no-fly are the recalled ones (any recalled lithium ion battery is no-fly)?

Sure it takes time to fix and the problem really shouldn't have happened in the first place, but if your machine is at risk of having the battery overheat or catch fire, it feels like the fact you can't fly with it ought to be the least of your worries.

<comment><USER17> My mid-2015 MacBook Pro was manufactured outside the recall window (July 2017). It is not a dangerous device. But I doubt I can convince the TSA officer that, and my options will probably be to either hand over the MacBook Pro or not fly at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> I have the first generation TouchBar MacBook Pro. And I've gotten the bottom part replaced twice: once because I spilled coffee on my desk and my MacBook decided to drink it, and the second time because they didn't attach the bottom plate properly (they forgot 2 screws and 1 other just fell out).

The keyboard they replaced it with is significantly better. It feels softer to the touch, and it's quieter. The keys don't get stuck anymore and it generally feels like a proper nice keyboard.

That said. I rarely use the laptop in an opened-up state anyway. I tend to connect it to a screen + keyboard + mouse and enjoy the computer without that idiotic TouchBar.

Last I checked you can send your MBP back to Apple and they'll replace the faulty keyboard. I did it during a vacation, it only took them 1 week to send the fixed system back.

</comment><comment><USER98> So I've been reading HN for almost 10 years now and nothing frustrated me this much to post a comment. 2017 MB Pro keyboard is a damn nightmare.

By introducing Apple keyboard service program for MBPro2017 they acknowledged the keyboard is broken by design. I happened to spill a little bit of coffee on it, but MB did no care, it was working fine, up until the point I started losing keys because of the weak micro hinges they have on the keys and flawed design.

Apple said they cannot fix it because of the coffee drops they found, even though it's flawed by design. I paid 3000USD for a laptop with 2 USBC ports and a freakin useless keyboard. That's the reason I didn't buy an iPhone now, and won't be buying any new Apple hardware no more - EVER. One more out of the apple train.

<comment><USER99> Almost ironic. You have arguably the best case, best display, best OS: however it is the plastic keyboard...

I am currently scheduling an appointment with my MacBook Air 2018 (Apple keyboard exchange program). It takes - as the Apple shop yesterday stated - <USER2> to 12 days to exchange the keyboard. 3 to 12 days!

</comment></comment><comment><USER100> We have 3 Macbook Pros and all of them have keyboard issues. Command key and space keys are few times not working. Often time other keys not registering or double entry sometimes. My few keys like A faded off (color came out). Earlier I had MBA which also has key fading issues.

</comment><comment><USER101> My biggest gripe is that the up and down arrow keys are half the size of the left and right arrow keys. It makes it difficult to quickly move the cursor or scroll through previous commands in a terminal. If I didn't use emacs I probably would have picked another machine

</comment><comment><USER102> Hear, hear! I used a 2018 MacBook for a little over a year; my work laptop is now a ThinkPad running Linux. My personal laptop is a 2015 MacBook. When it dies, I will not replace it with a butterfly-switch laptop.

(I also miss USB type A and MagSafe, but the keyboard was the deal breaker.)

</comment><comment><USER103> I'd like to plug my preferred solution to the crappy new keyboards - get the Anne Pro 2, a compact mechanical keyboard that speaks Bluetooth or USB-C. It nearly the same footprint as the built-in keyboard (ergo doesn't take up much desk space), and is a delightful typing experience.

It takes a bit of getting used to, lacking function and arrow keys, but after a week or two I wouldn't trade it at all. It's a perfect match for how I use my laptop, which is 90% of the time at my desk.

Non-affiliate link: [https://www.amazon.com/Anne-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard- Backl...](https://www.amazon.com/Anne-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard- Backlit/dp/B07M66R9DG)

</comment><comment><USER104> The worst part is that you end up breaking your fingers when you want to angry type a rant about the keyboard. :)

I picked up a bluetooth mechanical keyboard that I just carry around with me and don't use the laptop's actual keyboard at all.

</comment><comment><USER105> MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015) user here. I love this MacBook. It's the best laptop I have ever owned. My girlfriend has a recent MacBook Pro and it's just worse. The keyboard sucks, it's thin but feels metalic/heavy. It also gets super warm with a bit of CPU usage. And her personal MacBook from 2017 is also worse, the keyboard doesn't work properly a lot of the times and you cannot clean it. Keys have been stuck multiple times.

The 2015 MacBook Pro is just superior and I am very hesitant to buy a new one. I just want this model with better specs.

</comment><comment><USER106> He's completely right, i've made the same upgrade from 2015 (rip) and it's super frustrating. The tab keys not working is the worse for me . I continue to put random letters in random files when using it. Is a nightmare.

</comment><comment><USER107> Everyone's different but: I've had a 2016 MacBook, 2018 MBP and 2019 MacBook Air. Typing performance was _for me_ excellent on all three (wrote a ton of code so heavy keyboard use).

However the 2016 keyboard did have a failing space bar replaced twice and would have had a third (and a lemon law claim) had it not suffered an immersion first. Both times I was without my computer for 24 hours. The 2018 and 2019 experiences have been great.

So while I'm not thrilled on the reliability front I can't say I'm too upset. And key travel was not an issue _for me_.

</comment><comment><USER108> Just got the Macbook Air 2018 16GB/512GB from BestBuy for $1,150. Cheapest I've seen even by a eBay second hand standard. I think the price is good enough for me to overlook the keyboard reliability risk... typing is a bit loud though. I bought a Macbook Air 2019 and returned it before, typing on that keyboard was a bit quieter.

Overall, keyboard doesn't bother me that much after a couple of hours. I can type pretty fast in this thing. i5 duo core isn't that bad, either. I can multi-task quite well. So far I have zero regret.

</comment><comment><USER109> My wife recently bought a macbook pro and I hate the keyboard (her comment was "you get used to it"). My 2015 MBP is running real slow and I didn't want to wait for next year's refreshed keyboard so I just ordered an oryx pro with ridiculous specs for less than I would have spent on a MBP (although probably the screen is worse and definitely the battery too - we'll see about the rest of the hardware). Really curious to see how it will feel to back to linux.

</comment><comment><USER110> Yup every time I use my older personal laptop at home, I'm reminded by how much shittier the new keyboards are. They sound terrible and I never end up hitting the correct arrow key.

</comment><comment><USER111> It's absurd that someone thinks they can buy a BRAND of keyboard and expect it to meet what they want their typing to be. There is a HUGE range of UX factors involved with keyboards - ask anyone who's custom soldered up Cherry MX boards to get what is "just right" for them. There are factors like travel distance, and "clickyness" to consider, not to mention contour of keycaps.

But then ask yourself why Apple doesn't offer different keyboard styles based on typing style.

</comment><comment><USER112> I've got a laundry list of recent MacBook Pro issues:

1) Batteries have been swelling like pillows since 2010, affecting 2 of 3 of my MBPs. They said it's an anomaly, but the recent exploding batteries didn't surprise me at all since many people experience this swelling.

2) Double-pressing keys for 2018 MBP, as in this article

3) Keys fading quickly on 2018 MBP, killing the resale value of the laptops instantly. Good for Apple though, both me and others who would have bought my laptop have to go buy new ones

</comment><comment><USER113> I have a 2016 MB Pro and the keyboard had serious issues which were also reported by Apple for recall: [https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service- program-for-mac-n...](https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for- mac-notebooks) It resulted in two of my keys to completely BREAK and here Apple is now not willing to replace the keyboard. Sticky != Broken. That sucks so hard.

</comment><comment><USER114> Finally a new and refreshing take on the MacBook keyboards.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm currently looking to buy a new laptop to replace my old MacBook Pro, and a lot of people claim that the departure of Jon Ive might make the upcoming 16" MacBook Pro better than the older Macs.

I'm mostly drawn to Thinkpad, though. They receive unending praise for their excellent keyboards. The only downside is that they don't seem to have a model that matches my exact needs (like a 17" screen but to GPU).

</comment><comment><USER115> I'm stuck with a $4000 brick I cannot use without frustration. Given that I'm still paying it off, this really hurts motivation.

Another issue that seems to be overlooked is the overly big force touchpad that, in combination with the awful keyboard, will not correctly reject my palms while I type, causing the cursor to move elsewhere, oftentimes causing unintended button clicks, premature email sends, page transitions, etc.

<comment><USER116> I feel you. I have the 15" mb pro at work and the only place I can use it is at my desk (with external trackpad+keyboard). The massive touchpad is driving me crazy to a point I don't want to even carry the damn thing around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER117> I recently upgraded and I like using the new keyboard.

The fragility of the thing cannot be defended, but the typing experience is quite good. It is very tactile: when it clicks it register. There's no slowly pushing the key and then getting strokes registered before any tactile feedback, unlike mechanical keyboards. It's low profile so you can rest your palms without excessively bending you wrists, which is better for your hands.

<comment><USER118> I like the new keyboard, like, a lot. I have a work 2018 and my personal 2016 and prefer the new thin keyboard and hate typing on the fat one... but my work laptop didn't survive my second trip to a dusty environment. The new keyboard is literally a toy for air conditioned daily cleaned offices, I bet Apple even has to replace their own engineers laptops when they travel to warehouses or dusty shops so they may know better than us about this issue.

I have faith they will fix it, but the current thing made the Mac, which was already a finicky flimsy thing, almost impossible to use for extended periods of time on a dusty shop floor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER119> I have 2 Macbook Pros. One model 2017, and another late 2018 which I barely use. the 2017 keyboard feels more and more jammed, specially the space bar. The other just because has almost 0 use I can feel isn't that jammed. In the end I will start going back to a mechanical keyboard again. I'm thinking a $300 Topre. I managed to destroy all Apple Keyboards in less than a year, yeah.

</comment><comment><USER120> I feel like the keyboard issue is the prime example of why companies shouldn't have monopolies on who runs their OS. Sure on the one hand, they control everything and when things work, they Just Work (TM). On the other hand, they control everything and will inevitably screw something up. Your option? Deal with it, or change laptops. Oh, and change OSes too, since that was your only option for macOS.

</comment><comment><USER121> The worst part of the keyboard is the touchbar. I'd say well over 50% of my attempts to adjust sound level fail due to triggering other functions. I've been using this thing for over a year, and I hate it more every day. I don't even have the option of getting a normal keyboard if I want the fastest mac. It is as though they did no user testing at all.

</comment><comment><USER122> Good timing for you to switch, assuming you can hold out a little longer. The next Microsoft hardware event is in October [1].

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/27/20834766/microsoft- surfac...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/27/20834766/microsoft-surface- event-new-york-city-october-date-dual-screen-rumors)

</comment><comment><USER123> In the past year, my mac has been repaired twice, one is for the keyboard problem, the other is for the touch bar problem. So the top case has been changed twice. Now, there are some problems with the monitor. WTF!!! Every time to repair it, I have to wait for a week. I have brought a monitor now. I will repair the monitor until I have some replacement for the mac.

</comment><comment><USER124> I have never had a MacBook before and due to changing jobs recently, I'm forced to use one now.

Its good, I also like the keyboard. The click sound is awesome and I like the thinness of the keys! Maybe I'm different, or maybe complainers are just very loud.

Personally, I still bought a Surface Laptop though, but I don't understand all the complaining and ranting about the MBP keyboard.

<comment><USER125> Even if you like the keyboard there are some unavoidable reliability issues in the long run that people face with the jamming

</comment></comment><comment><USER126> I just bought a dell xps 15 9570 for this reason. Looking into figuring out how to put Ubuntu on it. I'm not sure I like WSL.

I'm sorry for Apple there was a time I'd laugh at people reading what I just wrote for myself. For all the bugginess that Windows OS is the hardware of these PC laptops have caught up. I can't justify it anymore if I can't type on the ting.

<comment><USER127> WSL2 (beta now, out Q1 2020) will be a straight up linux kernel. It might better suit your needs, if you want to try it now MS has free ISO for testing you can run in a VM and toss when done.. .

</comment></comment><comment><USER128> Being incentivised to continue on with my 2012 retina MacBook Pro has a nice side effect of getting me used to reducing my personal wastefulness. I don't think I'm missing out on much. An i7, SSD and enough RAM. It's not new, but it is snappy.

I wonder how long I will be able to continue without needless waste, just replacing the battery and clearing out the fans.

</comment><comment><USER129> I agree that the keyboard is terrible, but I think it's weird how many people just suffer through it and don't do anything about it. I put an external keyboard on top of the built in one (with a custom made plastic plate to block the keys of the built in from getting pressed). I am stuck with the laptop but I'm not going to be stuck with a bad keyboard.

<comment><USER57> Any cupertino locals hereplease start making appearances in coffee shops with a big fat ugly external keyboard duct taped on top of their macbook.

<comment><USER49> A friend once told me where Tim Cook goes for coffee in the AM. I'm tempted to set up shop inside with a big honking keyboard balanced on top of my MBP.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER130> I am still waiting on Apple to fix my broken Macbook 2018 keyboard for six month, even though I got apple care. They told me they would call me so I can bring the macbook in. This is the worst customer experience I've had in years. In addition to that, they told me that they won't fix the issue. Instead they'll just clean it.

</comment><comment><USER131> Unshaky will fix the duplicated keypress problem.

</comment><comment><USER132> The Touch Bar really annoys me too. Not that having some sort of status display is bad, but replacing actual useful keys with ones that give you no haptic feedback on key presses, is really terrible design. When I shop computers for colleagues I usually buy 2015 Macbooks to save them from the terrible experience that it is to use a newer one.

</comment><comment><USER133> As a curiosity, folks with consistently breaking keyboards on newer macbooks: Do you eat at or while using your laptop?

</comment><comment><USER134> Outside of reliability issues I much prefer the new keyboard. Typing on the older one feels like typing on mush now.

<comment><USER135> I agree, when comparing it to the 2015 keyboard, it's like typing on a squishy jello blanket.

However, my ideal keyboard is the current external Magic Keyboard that Apple sells separately. It's a little expensive, but I love the feel of those keys, and they have just enough play in them that they feel more natural.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> How many times do we have to go over this?

<comment><USER57> Until it's fixed. The beatings will continue until morale improves. My hope is apple engineers cringe at every one of these threads (or share in the solidarity)

</comment></comment><comment><USER136> For the reasons stated in this article as well as the existence of the touch bar, I have bought a ThinkPad when I wanted to upgrade my aging macbook last year.

In hindsight, I am happy with the decision thus far because I can accurately and swiftly type on my laptop keyboard without hurting my finger.

</comment><comment><USER137> I don't understand Apple users. They continue putting out crappy products and their users act like they've been personally hurt and there's nothing they can do about it.

There is something you can do about it: buy someone else's computer. How long has it been since you used anything else?

</comment><comment><USER138> I wonder how many people like me are staying on their MBP from <2014 til this design issue is resolved?

</comment><comment><USER139> I love the keyboard on new Macbooks. I wish I had a keyboard like that for my desktop PC. The Apple Wired keyboard is nice but doesn't come close. I can't go back to 2015 Macbooks anymore because of how awkward their keyboards feel to me now in comparison.

</comment><comment><USER140> Unpopular opinion: I want a touch keyboard with incredible haptic feedback. Long-throw keys trigger my particular RSI symptoms the worst. If I could move my fingers even less and apply even less force than I need to on the butterfly keyboard, I would be ecstatic.

<comment><USER141> You would benefit more from actual feedback that lets you know when you've actuated the press _before_ bottoming out (which causes you to apply excessive force). It's not usually the travel distance that hurts you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER142> > This keyboard would be, by far, the part of the MacBook Pro that is used the > most by everybody who owns one, and it is so poorly engineered for the > pursuit of thinness.

I think this is a clear case of _over_ engineering, not just "poor" engineering.

</comment><comment><USER143> I've got a 2019. I've hardly used the keyboard, I keep it closed and try and make sure I can work from somewhere with an external monitor and keyboard.

There's so much negative talk about them, I'm expecting it to have dissolved by the time I open it.

</comment><comment><USER144> I'm so glad to hear that someone else is dealing with this and that I'm not crazy. Also, the new magic keyboard isn't much better.

I think, for me, it's that both have home keys that you can barely feel, so you never know where you are on the keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER145> I love everything about my hexacore 32gb MacBook Pro... except the keyboard. In fact I rarely use my MacBook now because the keyboard is so infuriatingly bad. I have a 2014 model that I let my kids use and it's vastly better to type on.

</comment><comment><USER146> > A company with more money in the bank than several countries combined.

That's one problem with big companies: they start to _behave_ like countries, with their indifferent governments. At that point even media attention will not help.

</comment><comment><USER147> Just as a data point, I really like the keyboard on my MacBook Air 2019. I prefer it to the 2015 MacBook Pro chicklet keyboard. No reliability issues so far. We'll see if the latest gen is an improvement in that respect.

</comment><comment><USER148> So happy with my Dell XPS, don't understand why anyone would buy an MBP anymore.

<comment><USER149> iOS development. Photoshop. All the stuff that won't run on Linux.

</comment></comment><comment><USER150> Semi off-topic, but I do see ThinkPads mentioned here.

I want to ditch the Macbook Air 2019 and move away from Apple. I hear Thinkpads mentioned a LOT, but when I research them online, I see talks about poor battery life, poor QA, etc.

Any insight?

</comment><comment><USER151> I have a 2017 MBP w/o touchbar - I think it's pretty good. I do use a film to put over the keyboard though, maybe that's why I've been lucky (it makes the keyboard even quieter).

</comment><comment><USER152> I put an atreus keyboard on top of my laptop keyboard a lot of the time. You can even set up your MacBook to turn off the internal keyboard automatically when certain devices are plugged in with Karabiner

</comment><comment><USER153> I've developed extremely painful RSI since getting this awful laptop and can't even start work in the morning until the diclofenac and pain killers have kicked in. Possibly related.

<comment><USER154> Maybe you shouldn't be typing on laptop keyboards at all if you're getting RSI. Get an ergo keyboard. Your hands are worth it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER155> I use a MacBook Pro and a Air 2019, because I dislike the touchbar. I really like the keyboard feeling (especially the Air one) and reading these posts I wonder if someday it's going to break.

<comment><USER15> Oh it will. I thought the keyboard was okay at first. But my spacebar key gave in within 4 months. Apple took two full weeks to fix it. They made no promises that it won't happen again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER156> This man echoes my feelings in such a better way that I could ever write.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! I write as a side-hustle so I'm glad to get this sort of feedback as it helps me know when I'm doing the right thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER157> My refurbished 2015 Macbook Air ($500) works just fine. Updated to Mojave. Even got Picasa to run on it (have to click an error message five times, but then runs fine).

</comment><comment><USER158> Not to mention the arrow keys produce a lot of errors and the touch to click fails to register about 10% of the time. I end up typing in the wrong window multiple times per day.

</comment><comment><USER159> The butterfly keyboard issues are well-publicized, what did he think he was doing?

The only thing that surprises me is there hasn't been a class-action lawsuit yet.

</comment><comment><USER160> Not sure how this adds to the gazillion complaints already out there. Just trade it in for a replacement. Takes a few days max.

</comment><comment><USER161> The thinness issue applies to most Apple products. Who is asking for thinner phones? I want fatter phones with bigger batteries.

<comment><USER162> iPhones have been getting thicker with every generation since the iPhone 6.

</comment></comment><comment><USER163> So much for developer friendly computers. Why not return it as defective at that point?

</comment><comment><USER164> Preach. After 30+ years of using Macs I switched to Windows after being swindled out of about $10,000 in MacBooks putatively covered by AppleCare at $300 per device yet mysteriously somehow not eligible for coverage. Apple, you labored long and hard over 2 generations of laptop stinkage to drive me away, but you finally succeeded. Congratulations.

</comment><comment><USER74> Not to mention the finger joint pain.

Yes, really.

This thing is a joke.

</comment><comment><USER165> Anyone who makes serious money with his notebook moved away from Apple years ago. I can't take people serious buying Macbooks in 2019 posting a rant about, oh surprise, the broken keyboard. This is a well known fact and if you don't develop for iOS there is no single reason or lock-in forcing you to use Macs.

</comment><comment><USER166> Buy a Thinkpad and install Hackintosh.

I was so done with both the MacBook and MacBook Pro keyboards that I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad T480s. Installed Hackintosh, running the latest macOS Mojave 10.14.5 without issues (only drawback is that the Touchpad on the MacBooks are better).

Finally I can type again.

</comment><comment><USER167> This is the reason I have not replaced my mid 2012 MBP

</comment><comment><USER168> One of the first things I attach to every single laptop is an external keyboard. Guess why.

I never have a backpack that would be too small for one of those. (I don't carry my Model M around, of course.)

</comment><comment><USER169> "Just avoid holding it in that way"

</comment><comment><USER170> Zero idea what everyone's complaining about. I've had the new one for five months.

Never even had a second thought about the keyboard and I code for real, as in, I get paid for it.

<comment><USER171> A _real_ coder. Heh guys we have a real coder here. He gets paid and everything!

Not a factor. I also know people that don't have a problem with the MBP keyboard, I also know _many_ colleagues who are driven to distraction daily (myself included).

<comment><USER170> As in I spend a long time on the computer too. Literally depend on it for my livelihood.

And so do millions of people so,how come my mass produced keyboard works just fine? Am I too insensitive or what? Something wrong with me?

I guess I can't understand how anyone could be driven to distraction. If it's that bad, it's time for Aderall, not a blog post.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER172> Just gonna leave this here:

[https://youtu.be/zh264YV5Ci8?t=338](https://youtu.be/zh264YV5Ci8?t=338)

</comment><comment><USER173> > If Apple releases their new Macs with an identical keyboard, then I'm > ditching Macs and will pick up a Microsoft Surface Book or something > similar.

Holy shit, I know you're desperate but for the sake of your sanity DO NOT buy anything from the Microsoft Surface line.

I traded my Surface Book for a Dell XPS a couple of months back and, although the Dell is far from perfect, in day to day use it's about 10000x better than the Surface. Key point: it's a tool I can rely on.

Here are some examples of Surface issues that make it a very poor choice of tool as a "daily driver" machine:

\- The keyboard is crap: differently crap to the Macbook Pro, but still crap (to be fair this isn't the XPS's best feature either, but it's still better), and I found myself having to correct an unusually large quantity of typos. Layout's a bit weird as well, although you do get used to that.

\- The WiFi sucks: it just drops connectivity all the damn time, or refuses to reconnect, or doesn't recognise a network, or whatever. It gets boring. Yes, I've updated the firmware. Yes, I've updated the drivers.

\- The battery drains _fast_ whilst the computer is asleep. Like between 12 and 16 hours fast. This means if you don't have a full charge at the end of the day, and you forget to plug it in overnight, it's dead in the morning. My Macbook Pros can sleep for days and wake up; likewise the XPS - no problems with sleep.

\- Sometimes, even when plugged in, it wouldn't charge - no idea why. Sometimes it would charge only one of the batteries (e.g., the one in the keyboard but not the one in the screen, or vice versa) - again, no idea why. Generally required a reboot to fix the latter. I got so tired of this machine letting me down because the battery was dead (for whatever reason).

\- Battery life is _nowhere near_ advertised levels. I forget what it's supposed to be: 11 hours, 13 hours, 16 hours? It doesn't matter. If you're doing any kind of serious work you'll be luck to get 3 - 4.

\- Related to the above, the fans are always running and the thing runs really hot even in cool or temperate environments.

\- Dumb power supply design with too-short cables (yes, you can buy generic replacements that are longer) and a fragile connector to the machine itself.

(If the above sounds really angry it's because that computer made me _really_ angry on a regular basis. Without doubt the worst and least reliable machine I have ever owned, with the exception of two Sinclair Spectrums back in the 1980s. Do not buy one unless you're into more creative methods of self- flagellation.)

If I had to pick a machine now because, like you, I'm not going to buy another MBP[1] unless this keyboard fiasco is sorted out, it would probably be a mid- level to high end Lenovo. They seem pretty decent and offer plenty of options for customisation, depending on which range you pick.

 _[1] I 'm still using a 2015 model, which is doing mostly fine, although one day it will need replacing._

</comment><comment><USER174> im typing this on a 2012 macbook and have no desire to trade up LOL

</comment><comment><USER175> Am I the only one who spends most of their time on an external keyboard?

</comment><comment> sudo-i A thread for old men.......

</comment><comment><USER176> I've had a bunch of these (at least 4 on various work/personal machines IIRC) and I've had no usability issues. I believe in the failures people have reported, but is this guy just saying he can't type properly on these keyboards? Because that sounds like a problem on his end.

edit: I do hate the touchbar.</comment>


How Swat.io migrated from MySQL to PostgreSQL in 2 years - <AUTHOR> http://garage.socialisten.at/2017/04/how-swat-io-migrated-from-mysql-to-postgresql-in-2-years/ <comment><USER2> > [...] the maintenance headaches with MySQL started to have negative effects > on our teams morality [...]

As a general observation, "morality" (eg moral values) might be the wrong word there. Guessing you're meaning "morale" (?), which is more like "how happy our team members are".

That minor nitpick aside though, thanks for sharing. :)

<comment><USER3> I also enjoyed the article, and also have a nitpick which you may find interesting.

> Still, over time every new internal project pretty soon begged the > question...

You probably mean "raised the question". Begging the question is a type of logical fallacy[0].

[0] [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the- questio...](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the- question.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "Cannot online add a new column" This is false. [https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/innodb-create- index-...](https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/innodb-create-index- overview.html#innodb-online-ddl-summary-grid)

Very weird.

<comment><AUTHOR> From [https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/innodb-create- index-...](https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/innodb-create-index- overview.html):

      Add column
      In-Place?: *Yes*
      Rebuilds Table?: *Yes*
      Permits Concurrent DML?: *Yes* (Concurrent DML is not permitted when adding an auto-increment column.)
      Only Modifies Metadata?: *No*
      Data is reorganized substantially, making it an expensive operation.

In practice, the last _no_ is a serious problem.

<comment><USER4> Could you elaborate why it prevents online DDL ?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think the point of the article is that adding an index to a big table with lots of writes is _practically_ not possible:

Quoting from the article:

      real problem for big tables

      as adding a few columns to our biggest tables started to take 2+ hours
      or sometimes was completely unpredictable and exceeded our announced downtime windows.

Apparently, adding a column was even a problem during a maintenance window because the runtime was even longer than they expected.

Compared to PostgreSQL:

      As long as the new column is NULL and does not have a default value,
      it's in practice a no-op to add it. No matter if your table size is 100MB or 100GB

<comment><USER5> The linked [https://www.percona.com/doc/percona-toolkit/2.1/pt-online- sc...](https://www.percona.com/doc/percona-toolkit/2.1/pt-online-schema- change.html) generally works really well though, and in the simplest case it's as easy as following the usage example. I'm surprised that they knew about it yet didn't invest the time to learn it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Interesting read, and jealous somebody gave you 2 years for such migration :)

Small point of attention, on Safari/OSX swat.io loads as a white page with a scrollbar (it notices the page is larger in height), but only to be populated with content only 5 to 10 seconds after.

</comment><comment><USER7> "We had complete lock ups where max_connections was exceeded and we could never find a source, internal or external, to our system. Literally hundreds of connections doing SELECT statements but nothing else. Eventually manually killing them "solved" it"

Wouldn't having "max_connections" postgresql processes create more problems?

<comment><USER8> Usually not. When you reach max connections it does not cause problems for existing connections ie, no "complete lock ups)", it just stops allowing new connections. Also, there are normally reserved connections for postgresql superusers so you can query to find out where all the excess connections are coming from and kill them as needed.</comment></comment>


Show HN: My YC app - a replacement for your File Explorer. - <AUTHOR> https://recall.im <comment><AUTHOR> Hi everyone, the subj is an Android app that I'm working on, that has mostly replaced a file explorer for me. The app is called Recall. All file explorers are about file location - folder, file name, etc, which you generally don't know or choose when you take pictures or download files.

Recall is about search, it indexes the file contents in the background and let's you search through content. It also recognizes text on images pretty well, so is really helpful with pictures of documents or screenshots.

I'm currently considering whether to keep working on this thing, so please help me decide in comments :)</comment>