Income Inequality Is Falling Globally - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/upshot/income-inequality-is-not-rising-globally-its-falling-.html <comment><USER2> To all the doubters, real manufacturing wages in China have actually been soaring over the past decades, this is corroborated across non-correlated sources:

PRC Government numbers: [http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in- manufacturing](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in-manufacturing) [http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump- in-2012-de...](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump- in-2012-despite-slowing-economy-2013-05-17)

WSJ: [http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870384920...](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703849204576302972415758878)

Journal of Economic Perspectives: [http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the- end-of-cheap-chines...](http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the-end-of-cheap- chinese-labor/)

No one source is believable but there appears to be wide consensus here. Also note these are real, inflation-corrected wages. You can tell especially by the WSJ's concern over prices, if inflation explained the changes it wouldn't impact export costs which are priced in USD not Yuan.

<comment><USER3> well china has a huge growth, but after the 2008 crisis I can still raise my eyebrows.

why would americans really care inequality in china ? if american politics want to reduce inequality, they want to do it in their country, not in developing countries.

<comment><USER4> Some people care about people in general, even if they are far away.

<comment><USER5> If you live in America and are struggling to make enough to feed and house your family, it's a moot point that the numerical income level puts them in the 1% around the world.(or whatever the percentage is) Local inequality matters.

<comment><USER4> Local purchasing power is quite different from local inequality

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really great (incomplete) triumphs of human history.

I suppose I'm being uncharitable here. I'd guess the more likely explanation is mood affiliation--people want a political revolution in response to real problems (inequality, global warming, poverty, war, surveillance) and are resistant to _any_ news that does not fit into this narrative of decline.

<comment><USER7> > It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a > distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I > guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who > looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global > poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world > can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really > great (incomplete) triumphs of human history.

I'm pretty familiar with the issue of global poverty, but the critics are right: the policies that reduce poverty and inequality at the national level are not mutually exclusive with those that reduce poverty at the global level.

More importantly, nation states CAN reduce poverty/inequality within their own borders (and many policies that do so are simply good economic common sense [1]), while there's a limit to what any particular country can do on a global scale.

In short, decreasing inequality at the global level is no excuse not to combat rising inequality at the national level.

[1] Such as universal healthcare and accessible education.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Seen that thing already on /r/economics a while ago, went in a long discussion with a libertarian sounding guy. Was really disappointed.

I don't like this, because the current argument of inequality talks about developed countries, inside borders. The "global inequality" somewhat argues that inequality per country is irrelevant because what counts is global inequality, which to me is a little fallacious: you don't replace a debate with the same debate at a bigger scope.

If markets are being globalized, nations lose bargaining power, and it's not really a good thing.

It's also a little inadequate/irrelevant to talk about income inequality in developing countries I think. Those countries are developing, so it's not surprising to see their economies improve. If it's done at the expense of other more developed countries, it's natural for those latter countries to complain.

</comment><comment><USER8> The situation globally and the situation in first world countries, particularly the USA, is quite different. Income inequality is falling in places like Brazil, India, and China but is rising in the developed world.

<comment><USER9> It's almost as if the "first world" elites are transferring the wealth of their developed nations and their poor and middle classes to themselves and sending a bit of it overseas to their outsourced interests...

<comment><USER9> If you disagree, give me some proof otherwise. The situation I've described allows for a "global rise in income equality" while enforcing the status quo. But you won't because you can't.

Anyways...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I just posted this to my Facebook wall with the tagline I use for a headline conclusion that states a fact that everyone should know: "But of course." Globalization (increasing international trade on increasingly free terms of trade across more goods and services) would have to act as a worldwide phenomenon to reduce income inequality. Moreover, a country's greater rather than lesser involvement in international trade generally reduces income inequality within the country. Many of the countries in Europe that have especially low Gini coefficients (in other words, have especially equal distributions of income) are long-time members of the European Free Trade Association, and many of the countries in Central and South America that have high Gini coefficients (that is the region on the world to look in for the worst income inequality, among regions of the world) have long had protectionist trade policies and remarkably little involvement in the world economy.[1] Free trade improves income equality.[2] If reducing income inequality is your policy goal, improving provision of primary and secondary education is a good idea,[3] and other policy responses may be useful in one country or another,[4] but the world trend should continue to be toward more and more trade, the better to reduce income inequality and raise real wealth for everyone.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality)

[2] [http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show- decr...](http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show-decrease- income-inequality-2931)

[http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim...](http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim.pdf)

[3] [http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf](http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf)

[4] [http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson- desc...](http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson-describes- what-the-us-should-do-to-enhance-economic-growth-and-distributional-equity)

AFTER EDIT: I would be glad to hear from multiple participants here from all over the world how your income (as a hacker?) compares to the median income in the country you live, and I have opened an Ask HN thread specifically to focus discussion on that topic, which may help me learn a lot about other people's perspectives here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579)

<comment><USER11> This is just propaganda without any real facts.

<comment><USER12> He just footnoted 4 sites with real facts.

It is amazing the extent people will go to contradict data when that data disagrees with their personal experience or worldview.

<comment><USER11> That he posted four links does not mean, that all what he says (as much I see, he draws conclusions, that need not necessarily be proved inside his links) is true.

I also can post several links, some with truth, some with lies or speculations. Who will decide. Numbers mean nothing.

<comment><USER13> To give a concrete example, confounding variables in the analysis can lead to things like Simpson's paradox. In the famous Berkeley gender bias case, the evidence based on facts was that men were accepted into graduate school at a higher rate than women. People concluded that there was institutional gender bias.

Further analysis shows that most departments had no strong bias against women, and some evidence that it was actually the other way around. The confounding factor is that women tended to apply to more selective programs.

The post by tokenadult, for a more concrete backing of PythonicAlpha's reply, observed 'Central and South America that have high Gini coefficients (that is the region on the world to look in for the worst income inequality, among regions of the world) have long had protectionist trade policies and remarkably little involvement in the world economy'. However, that is only one possible correlation.

Consider that US government and businesses have a long history of political and economic intervention in those countries, with Cuba being a prime example but see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Americas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Americas) , the private army of the Cuyamel Fruit Company taking over Honduras, and US military support to Colombia in the so-called 'War on Drugs'. The US has a weaker influence in Europe.

Consider that most Central and South American countries are Catholic, while the European countries include more faith traditions. In the same vein, religion tends to be less important in the European countries than the countries in the Americas.

So there are several other differences which might affect the economical differences besides 'protectionist trade policies' and international economy involvement. Yet the provided link [1] is only a list, and does not have any sort of analysis to judge if there are confounding affects other than free trade. It is insufficient justification for the point made.

The provided link [2], as evidence for "Free trade improves income equality" doesn't actually make that statement. It does indeed say that "EFTA countries show decrease in income inequality" but "One explanation for this is income losses in the upper part of the income distribution that happened during the financial and economic crisis." That's quite a different point, don't you think?

Then if you read the actual study it says "Social transfers (excluding pensions) played an important role in reducing inequality in 2012"

There's _nothing_ in that document which mentions free trade as improving income equality.

The provided link [3] looks like a nice document. Tokenadult suggests that it primarily suggests "improving provision of primary and secondary education". To point out though, that same document categorizes "Liberalising product markets" under the section "Growth-enhancing policy reforms that have an ambiguous effect on income inequality"

Finally, link [4]'s biggest suggestion is that "The US needs a more progressive and redistributive tax and transfer system to combat rising inequality in market incomes." I didn't see anything about globalization and free trade.

Hence why PythonicAlpha is fully justified in saying "This is just propaganda without any real facts."

Moreover, you might have noticed that tokenadult's "globalization" is limited to "free trade", and not "free movement of labor" or "freedom of workers to bargain collectively." By focusing only on capital and ignoring labor, this is propaganda favoring those who own capital over those who work. As a classic example, a law which forbids the purchase of goods made by child labor or slave labor is also a law which is anti-free trade.

The question I have for nostrademons and those who down voted PythonicAlpha is: did you actually follow and read those four footnotes, or was their presence enough for you? If you read them, then how did they persuade you that they strengthened tokenadult's comments?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Ho! He is right.

Just the problem of redistribution is like a problem of multiple bath tubs pouring water in a bigger common bathtub (the wealth) and how it is recycled (the water flowing back to the top in no respect of any scientific analogy).

you could globally be happy that for all the bathtubs of the world to observe a ratio of wealth repartition that is less extreme.

but where does this wealth/water comes from?

the rich who are already experiencing a favorable bias toward tax paying or the active workers who are paying relatively more taxs comparing to their income?

Tax does not transform into wealth maybe?

No, but education does: a worker with an easier access to the education worths more for the economy. Health insurance makes a worker available in good conditions for more productive years. (No wonders that health insurance are almost forced for highly paid workers; the company should ensure its working forces are productive).

So if the richer don't pay as much taxes, taxes being more profitable for the richer it is de facto (just by the sheer disappearance of the resources indirectly provided by the states) a logical decrease of the «second order» resources.

Yes in the world globally situation increases positively in terms of repartition, but locally because mostly we have the same incentive all around the world, the situation decreases.

The inequality are globally more balanced, but locally tending towards more non linear repartition. With a nice sigmoid.

this will go on as long as there is no fiscal equity amongst all citizens, whatever the country, whatever the religion, or social/political/economical belief.

It all boils down to how retro action works. And the shape of the curves of taxes. Every single steps, every non linear progression you make, you introduce distinct clusters of citizens which interests will diverge with the rest.

Put a sigmoid in the way people pay taxes/get credit refound, and your society will have a sigmoid in its structure, thus creating the probability of some divergence of opinions on what is equity or egality.

Are the 2 extremum wishable? All persons living at the average, or a cast system with n distincts layers, or can their exists «harmonious» level of wealth in a society that could results in less frictions?

Mathematically I am pretty sure we could agree that when a curve have 2 extremum that are not optimums (casts system or uniform normative systems) we should find the rules for an optimum in the middle.

Now in real life, maybe it is time to see the inequality not as a philosophical problem, but rather as process that can be engineered for the greater good of every one: slackers, billionnaires, hobos, politicians all alike.

The first step at my opinion would be to forbid any rules in the form IF DISCRETE cond A then apply X else apply Y in laws and tax formulation.

</comment><comment><USER15> yea okaaaay... i was born at night, but not last night.

</comment><comment><USER11> I don't see any evidence in the article, just links to some dubious papers, partially paid by the world bank.

It might be, that some money goes to third world countries (specially China and India) but I just doubt, that many people are really rising out of poverty. The "wandring labourers" of China are not. They work just to survive. Also those that are sewing our jeans in Malaysia and other countries ... at the verge of living wage. When the big corporations move along, to even cheaper countries, nothing is left to them.

I know by own experience, that with statistics, you can prove just anything, even lies.

I think, reading also the comments posted to the article is helpful. Some insights are also there.

<comment><USER4> The Chinese poor, don't have to rise out of poverty to be vastly richer than they were a few decades ago. They had to get bigger desks in their school because all the kids are bigger because they can afford to feed them now.

<comment><USER11> Might be, but they will run in tremendous health problems, given the current rate of environmental pollution.

Also (again): Compared to western standards, the Chinese median earnings are still laughable.

<comment><USER4> Yet their life expectancy is still rising because they are so much better off than they were before. Chinese median earnings are still laughable compared to western standards but rising from unimaginable poverty to still quite bad poverty is a big improvement.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why a BSD License Might be Wrong for your Embedded Open-Source Project - <AUTHOR> http://spin.atomicobject.com/2013/05/31/bsd-license-open-source/

<comment><USER3> _Do you know, or necessarily care, who supplied the brakes in your car?_

Yes?

That's probably not the best example since many people actually change the breaks in their car, whereas I believe the point of the OP was that this is a library that is compiled into the final product.

That said, I don't think this is evidence that the BSD license is "broken" in some way. It simply requires that the user of your code cite that they used it. (I believe Microsoft failed to do this for a few years for their sockets code). Just like when you quote another text, you need to cite your source; the BSD license requires the same. If that's not your intention, don't use it, but don't blame the license.

<comment><AUTHOR> Author here. I don't think the BSD license is broken, just that the legal implications of that clause were surprising to me, and I thought I'd share what I learned.

I'm still likely to use the BSD license in other contexts, but will probably default to MIT/ISC/zlib specifically for embedded libraries.

<comment><USER4> If I'm not mistaken, the MIT, ISC, zlib, AND GPL licenses all have the same clause which caused you to reject the BSD license. Has the OEM in question accepted the new license?

EDIT: Sorry, it appears the zlib license differs in that the clause only applies to source distributions and not binary distributions.

EDIT2: I can't find a legally rigorous citation, but here's a Quora discussion which seems to agree with me: [http://www.quora.com/Does-the-MIT-license- require-attributio...](http://www.quora.com/Does-the-MIT-license-require- attribution-in-a-binary-only-distribution)

<comment><AUTHOR> The MIT, ISC, and zlib do not seem to, and the OEM is happy with the ISC. I didn't check the GPL, because its overall design conflicts with my intent.

Here's the ISC license, in its entirety:

        Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any
        purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
        copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.

        THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES
        WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
        MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR
        ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES
        WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN
        ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF
        OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.

I don't think the "appear in all copies" applies to binary distribution, or at least there's more room for interpretation because it is far less explicit. IANAL, but if it did, there would likely be a LOT of violations - <USER2> typically don't embed the license as a string in compiled libraries. (That would probably be a disincentive for using the GPL, which is several times larger than my compiled library!)

Edit: The zlib license explicitly says "source distribution", and does not apply to binary distributions. Good to know.

<comment> X-Istence If you look at the iPhone for example, there is a menu where Apple lists EVERY single last license that applies for any software they ship.

Settings > General > About > Legal > Legal Notices

Where necessary reproducing the licenses isn't that difficult, either in documentation or within some part of the program. If your customers are purchasing something from you as an OEM you should notify them that they need to put certain statements in their documentation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is not that uncommon. e.g. many Broadcom SoCs uses various code from opensource projects - Broadcom doesn't sell to end users though.

They publish a (small) document to their customers detailing what they have to do as they retail the end product using this particular chip. Which licenses they have to reproduce in documentation and which links to place there pointing to the original source code where that's required.

If that's a burden you do not want to place on the customers - indeed, you need to be careful about the selected license.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't see why this is a problem. The manufacturer of the hardware is the only person bound by the license since they're the only people copying, the only people who need to have the software licensed to them. They're bound to give a copy of that notice to anyone who buys their stuff, but nobody downstream has to care, they're protected by the Doctrine of First Sale[1]. Unless the author lives in a country where that doesn't apply.

[1]<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine>

<comment><AUTHOR> I probably cannot discuss the specifics of the vendor, but I don't know if First Sale applies in their country. I'm not a lawyer, and their lawyers brought it up as a potential issue, so I'm inclined to take it at face value.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why not just put stuff into the public domain?

<comment><AUTHOR> The "public domain" designation has its own problems, nicely summarized on Google Code ([https://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/FAQ#Can_I_host_code_t...](https://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/FAQ#Can_I_host_code_that_I_have_placed_in_the_public_domain?)).

In particular, Dr. Richard Hipp (SQLite's main author) has talked about problems that came up from releasing it into the public domain. He eventually created a second license specifically for companies in places that didn't legally recognize the public domain, and wanted to make sure they were protected from liability.

Licensing is complicated.

<comment><USER8> CC0 addresses these problems with "public domain"; its intent is the most permissive license that's legally possible (plus, in jurisdictions where it is possible, actually placing the work in the public domain). Unlike the other Creative Commons licenses, it it suitable for source code.

( <http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ> , <https://creativecommons.org/choose/zero/> )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I hate paperwork, but I suppose that providing a document with all the copyright notices along with the car, can't be that bad.

<comment><USER10> As someone who manages commercial software development projects (also for embedded devices) I can tell you that it is a royal pain to manage the copyright notices. It is a list that has to be created, maintained, updated and has to make its way into the final product or its documentation. You also have to manage copyright notices from software shipped by your partners.

While you do this, your programmers will just drop in another library ("But I've checked the license, it's fine, it's BSD!") without telling you. And that library will have dependencies.

Overall, if you want to do this right, it's a major pain, for very little actual gain (who reads these copyright notices anyway?).

<comment><AUTHOR> If you have any other recommendations for making this process smoother, please let me know. I _want_ people in your situation to be able to use my libraries without these irritations. (Author of the post.)

<comment><USER10> The only thing that comes to mind is a unified standard for copyright statements. If I could be sure that there is a file called COPYRIGHT.statement in every source repo, containing a single line of text that I should include in the documentation, it would be a huge step forward.

Unfortunately, this would require agreeing on a standard and having people follow it, so I'm not keeping my hopes up.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


PostgreSQL 8.4 Beta - <AUTHOR> http://lwn.net/Articles/328584/ <comment><USER2> aaah. another year, another release.

Ever since 7.1, I'm a near-fanatic PostgreSQL-user, if not to say fanboi.

I love, love, love PostgreSQL for its performance, its features, its awesome community and just for the fact that it's getting better and better every year.

Congratulations to the PostgreSQL team.

I've said it before and I'll probably say it many more times: You guys rule.

Sorry. This had to be said :-)

<comment><USER3> Since you are someone who is seriously into postgres, can I ask you, how do you deal with the lack of a serious solution for replication / hot standby? Why is this not a more pressing issue for the postgresql developers?

I ask this in the following context: I frequently argue for postgresql but in a majority of cases it gets shot down because MySQL is perceived to have a better solution for maintaining hot standby and people actually care about availability more than all the other retarded issues MySQL has put together. Unbelievably, after losing the publicity war with MySQL, postgres actually seems to now be proceeding to lose the technical war on one single issue ... yet I don't see much urgency in the postgresql camp to care about this.

<comment><USER4> MySQL replication is pretty broken too. It was one of the biggest problem ares while I worked their, tons of customer issues with it, slaves constantly getting out of sync with masters. I think it's fundamentally because the lack of ACID makes it impossible to serialize and replicate updates deterministically.

<comment><AUTHOR> InnoDB is ACID, though, isn't it? Far be it from me to defend Mysql, but InnoDB has made it more like a real database.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was looking forward to built-in replication, but I'll take whatever I can get.</comment>


Netflix profit up 45% in Q4, nears 10 million total subscribers - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/26/netflix-profit-up-45-in-q4-nears-10-million-total-subscribers/ <comment><USER2> I love netflix, I also have been really happy with their netflix streaming service... If netflix keeps leading the way I doubt the movie industry will end up as screwed as the music industry.

<comment><USER3> My wife and I just traded in our cable subscription ($65/month) for Netflix ($12/month) + XBox 360 for tv streaming ($299) and let's face it, XBox 360 duties as well. Streaming from a USB hard drive (already owned). Plus Christmas gifts basically covered the XBox.

One month in, no regrets.

I don't think the video industry is "dead", but it sure is in for an upheaval.

Netflix's streaming library is "meh", but if you have Netflix streaming be sure to poke into the "Starz" library; they seem to have to keep it visually separate for legal reasons and it has a surprising amount of moderately good/recent stuff in it. If you see reviews from before the Starz edition, it's certainly gotten _less_ meh since then.

I would characterize the Netflix streaming library as: If you have a specific video in mind and you want to know if it can be streamed, the answer is "no". If you want to stream a video and you wonder if there's something good worth streaming, the answer is "yes". That's actually progress, all things considered.

Now, if either Netflix or Microsoft (XBox 360) cut a deal with Hulu, I'm set. And I expect the odds of at least one of those occurring in six months to be better than 50/50.

<comment><USER4> I have the Apple TV and have cancelled cable as well. Greatest thing about Apple TV is that my wife and her sister - neither of whom have any patience for futzing around with AV or computer equipment - can easily figure everything out and happily watch TV/movies whenever they want. Also, _LOVE_ watching podcasts on a normal TV and being able to control music playback in the living room via my phone. Video podcasts have replaced the time I used to spend randomly flipping through channels.

I think the only thing that's really missing from my current experience is an easy way to stream live video to my Apple TV (without breaking the simple interface). It was a bit of an issue during the election. I would have paid to have had access to a CNN or some other news channel other than one of the broadcast networks, though PBS served us reasonably well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For other Netflixers around here: please try out a service I created: <http://feedflix.com>

</comment><comment><USER6> I have a Blockbuster Online subscription and love it. When I decided I wanted a movie service I went looking at both offerings and I ended up deciding on BB because of the in-store exchanges. I'm willing to bet I'd be on Netflix if I lived in a bigger city that didn't involve me driving past a blockbuster on my way to work every day. With Blockbuster for movies and Hulu for TV, I just throw away all those Time Warner ads I get in the mail trying to get me to bundle my internet.

</comment><comment><USER2> if you are into netflix, hulu, and other streaming stuff (nbc,cnn,etc) I highly recommend checking out boxee, <http://boxee.tv/> it has a great user interface and works with the apple remote.

<comment><USER7> +1 on Boxee.

I had a Mac Mini sitting around so I threw Boxee and that takes care of everything I need. I actually had canceled my Netflix account and Boxee convinced me to set it up again since I can stream instant movies from there. It's awesome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Netflix live streaming to the XBox is really awesome. I just wished more movies were available for it.

</comment><comment><USER9> Perhaps as the economy goes down the toilet, people shift their entertainment dollars to Netflix as it is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available. I wonder if Netflix and Walmart are positively correlated :)

</comment><comment><USER10> They look like they're at the steepest part of the sigmoidal curve.</comment>


UPDATE considered harmful - <AUTHOR> http://www.chrisdew.com/blog/2013/06/05/UPDATE-considered-harmful-event-sourcing-mysql/

<comment><USER2> The process described here -- event sourcing -- is of somewhat limited utility _alone_ ; as the article notes it is limited to relatively small data sets (because, as commenters have noticed, you magnify the size of the data and the cost of queries when you do this), but some of the key benefits (such as avoiding issues with locking) mainly come into play with high frequency of updates, and small data size, high-frequency-update applications aren't necessarily all that common.

The article doesn't really address where Event Sourcing is most useful, which is when it is used on the "write" side of a system with CQRS (Command-Query Responsibility Segregation) architecture.

See (among a vast volume that has been written on the combination of these techniques): [http://cqrs.wordpress.com/documents/cqrs-and-event- sourcing-...](http://cqrs.wordpress.com/documents/cqrs-and-event-sourcing- synergy/)

</comment><comment><USER3> While this is an interesting method (packaged in a broad, bait-ish claim), I'd like to see where the described benefits are actually worth the increased complexity and difficulty: for situations with a few 10-100.000 inserts/day, you will not run into locking issues and beyond that, the wasted disk space will become noticeable to prohibitive, especially on cloud-hosted systems. History and undo might be useful in some situations (not likely with password changes as in the example though), debugging is probably better achieved with rotated logs, not extra data in your database (which you might want to backup regularly...).

<comment><USER4> Except for specialized applications, I just cannot see how this is a good idea. As the table size grows, your indexes are potentially going to get enormous. And as your tables grow larger, there are other issues also.

He uses mySQL, which I'm not as familiar with, but I know with a index organized table in Oracle, or a table with a clustered index in SQL Server, there might be a lot fragmentation going on and the table might need to be reorganized.

In short: an interesting idea, but impractical in most cases.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is just a Slowly Changing Dimension[1] of Type 4 (using a historical table in addition to a working table).

I personally like Type 2 (having everything in the working table with an attribute to mark the current and all previous versions) because of its simplicity to implement and maintain. Type 3 (having a column per version and attribute you want to store) always looked ugly to me, but it has its uses.

1: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowly_changing_dimension></comment>


Ask HN: Should non-technical entrepreneurs get product management training? - <AUTHOR>

So if you're launching your first startup and your non-technical and you don't know much about product management/development, Is it worth it get some training/courses offered by 280group.com(link below)
Link(non-agile PM): http://www.280group.com/training/certification-self-study-coursesexams/certified-project-manager-course-exam/
Link(agile PM): http://www.280group.com/training/certifications/agile-self-study-course-certification/
I don't know how to code, will product management training help me in different aspects of my business ? I don't have a team yet but I think it would be good idea if I can learn all the basics about product management as a non technical guy before I start my startup, no ? <comment><USER2> As a mobile software engineer turned product manager I can echo what the first to replies said. Skip training/certification as real product management skills are built on doing it and the mistakes you make along the way. If you're interested in a good way to go about developing product I recommend Marty Cagan's book Inspired and Eric Reis' Lean Startup. That will save you some bux you should spend bootstrapping your startup versus a course or useless certification.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think it is best to learn something about coding or wireframing. try codecademy.com or something. This way you will better understand how to communicate with your techies.

</comment><comment><USER4> If you're not managing a team tomorrow, then you don't need certifications or courses. Far more can be learned by doing and experiencing.</comment>


Microsoft team submits Redis patch to enable Windows support - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/antirez/redis/issues/238

<comment><USER3> Wow, I'm kind of surprised by the amount of snark ("eww it's 140k lines", "mini git tutorial", "patch file instead of pull request").

It seems it's so big because it contains the libuv. The instructions to compile on Windows don't seem trivial at all and if I cared enough to try this I would appreciate that they wrote it step-by-step.

The guys at MS just sat down and made it work while antirez was throwing out suggestions how to make it work with " the behavior of the window filesystem is so incredibly broken that well they should really fix it I guess"

Sorry for the rant I would just expect better from the community.

<comment><USER4> I think patch versus pull request is a valid complaint, but there's absolutely no reason to be snarky about it.

Everything else just reeks of MS bashing that reinforces the negative view of the open source crowd that many on the MS side of the divide have.

Github is looking to pull the Windows crowd into their world; on the blog, they stated that as an explicit goal for their hiring of Phil Haack.

So, please, play nice. I would much rather Github stay a fairly harmonious place than be another open source vs. MS battleground.

<comment><USER5> The complaint about the size is most certainly _not_ just "MS bashing". Dumping massive flawed pieces of code on people out of the blue and expecting them to be grateful is bad form, no matter who you are.

Unfortunately this seems to be Microsoft's MO.

<comment><USER6> How are the MS people who submitted the patch "expecting" others to be "grateful"?

<comment><USER5> Perhaps they are not, but the people complaining about "snark" are what I am talking about.

Anyway, my point is that complaints about the size are very valid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The snark on this thread is concerning, Microsoft has made a good gesture in trying improve the Redis story on Windows and IMO it's something we all should be encouraging as it can only serve to improve the Redis ecosystem.

Historically Microsoft hasn't been too fond of NoSQL but positive steps like this validates Redis in the eyes of Windows devs which has the potential to attract new devs to the world of Redis and NoSQL.

I personally hope to see this implementation improve so it runs flawlessly on Windows and Azure.

<comment><USER8> > Microsoft has made a good gesture

When on the other hand they are poisoning the Android/Linux ecosystem with FUD, patent extortion and the like. While I would prefer the discussion to stay civil and technical, Microsoft is consistently earning every snark they are receiving, and then some.

<comment><USER9> They might be doing other things you don't like, but at least give credit where credit is due.

Submitting code upstream to Redis is completely independent of their patent decisions regarding Android. I'm not a fan of their overall stance with respect to FOSS/Linux/Android, and they may be earning the snark there, but not in this case.

These discussions become a lot more valuable when we stop characterizing any organization, especially one as complex as a large corporation, as universally 'good' or 'bad'.

<comment><USER10> > give credit where credit is due

Sure. Just don't forget they profit from Windows sales and, thus, will do anything to justify the deployment of a Windows server instead of a Linux one. Including contributing to a Unix-native product. If, in the end, Redis' codebase becomes cluttered and performance and maintenance suffer, we all lose. I mean, all of us except Microsoft, who wins both by us losing and from gaining space for their own future offerings in this segment.

There is no good or bad. It's self interest. When their self-interest coincides with the society's, I'm for them. OTOH, it's been a long time since it last did. It certainly never happened after the mid 90's.

<comment><USER7> Of course they're selfishly motivated - everyone is. The point is this time Redis/NoSQL stands to benefit as well.

<comment><USER11> It seems you've skipped the sentence:

 _If, in the end, Redis' codebase becomes cluttered and performance and maintenance suffer, we all lose._ </quote>

<comment><USER7> That's a case for not merging, not for a parallel win32-based project - <USER2> this implementation could serve either of.

<comment><USER10> It would risk diverting attention from the Unix port to the Win32 one. Even if the Redis developers don't pay attention to this distraction, its mere existence fragments the codebase and creates two semi-compatible versions.

And if the Windows version sucks badly, any Windows user who tries to install it on Windows will end up blaming Redis and try something else. On Windows.

Microsoft wins and we lose on all scenarios.

<comment><USER7> This is a very pessimistic view of the world and future events (which I don't share). I'd get that looked at.

A bad Redis port by Microsoft makes them look bad, whilst their endorsement of Redis makes Redis looks good.

The 'pro developers' that Redis attracts are going to be more than capable of identifying the culprit behind a shitty port.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> [Edited for tone which I guess is the reason for the down votes. I appreciate the quick response below.]

Most of this patch is adding libuv, which is included in its entirety due to "the version included in the patch is different than the one available on github, some changes have been added to the code". There is also a lot of cleanup. Also a small nit, in the patch instructions:

      git checkout 3fac86ff1d
      git checkout -b 2.4_win_uv

is equivalent to:

      git checkout -b 2.4_win_uv 3fac86ff1d

Here's what would make it more easily reviewable.

1\. clone redis

2\. clone libuv

3\. make whatever changes needed to libuv as its own commit.

4\. add libuv as a submodule to redis.

5\. perform all the misc compiler cleanup stuff to redis as its own commit; usually you want your cleanup/refactored to happen before you perform functional changes.

6\. add the ms-specific code as its own commit.

7\. push up the new commits to the two forked repos.

This would make it all a bit easier to review. The only questionable part is adding libuv as a reddis submodule (4). Maybe I'd leave that part out initially and instead just specify the equivalent manual step needed there (clone our fork of libuv into X and checkout Y).

<comment><USER13>
      > 1. cloned redis
      > 2. cloned libuv

Of course you mean "fork", not "clone".

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Embrace, extend, extinguish.

Does Redis still do that thing where it forks and the child writes its core to disk? How does that work under Windows, which doesn't have fork?

Finally, this is one big patch:

        339 files changed, 146821 insertions(+), 290 deletions(-)

With many of the changes along the lines of:

         static void *callbackValDup(void *privdata, const void *src) {
        -    ((void) privdata);
             redisCallback *dup = malloc(sizeof(*dup));
        +    ((void) privdata);
             memcpy(dup,src,sizeof(*dup));
             return dup;
         }

or

        -    cmd = malloc(totlen+1);
        +    cmd = (char*)malloc(totlen+1);

Eliminating compiler warnings is nice and whatever, but probably not the best thing to include in your "add major feature" patch.

<comment><USER15> Correct me if I'm wrong, but casting the result of malloc is generally considered bad form in C, isn't it?

<comment><USER16> I wouldn't so much call it "bad form" as just non-idiomatic. It doesn't really have big downsides in practice.

It's mostly a habit people pick up from C++ (where it's mandatory due to stricter typing), and if you want to build C code with a C++ compiler, you need to add the casts.

Given Microsoft's C++ fetish, I'm unsurprised by this.

<comment><USER17> I suppose one downside would be if you cast a voidptr to a pointer to (an element that has a different size), then calling operator++ moves it by more than if you had left it as a voidptr.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Can somebody more familiar with the Windows environment explain why prn.h is an "invalid file name"?

edit:// thanks all! :)

<comment><USER19> It's reserved for compatibility:

"Do not use the following reserved device names for the name of a file:

CON, PRN, AUX, NUL, COM1, COM2, COM3, COM4, COM5, COM6, COM7, COM8, COM9, LPT1, LPT2, LPT3, LPT4, LPT5, LPT6, LPT7, LPT8, and LPT9. Also avoid these names followed immediately by an extension; for example, NUL.txt is not recommended."[1]

[1] [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/windows/desktop/aa36...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/windows/desktop/aa365247\(v=vs.85\).aspx#naming_conventions)

<comment><USER20> I once saw some interesting behavior on a Windows 95 machine - my brother printed a drawing for a convention to a file. The printer was a HP LaserJet with plug in module that enabled Postscript. He named the file "con" and when he hit OK on the print dialog the entire screen buffer (over the windowing interface) started filling with Postscript.

<comment><USER21> Windows tries to prevent you naming a file "con". I once renamed a text file con in Win95; using a raw disk editor to change the file entry and it did this too - every time I saved text in the file it would write it console/DOS style to the screen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Given its 'alpha state' it won't likely be merged in the main Redis anytime soon.

Though it is at least a validation by Microsoft of how good Redis is and its wish to see it run natively on Windows.

</comment><comment><USER22> Using libuv from Node.js too. Awesome.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm way behind on Windows tech, but it's made a token attempt to support a crippled POSIX subsystem since Windows NT. This is supposed to be the modern equivalent:

<http://support.microsoft.com/kb/324081>

</comment><comment><USER24> Been looking to port SQL Server to NIX but I can't seem to find it on github?

</comment><comment><USER25> Look at the instructions to create a branch out of a commit.

Just

git checkout -b 2.4_win_uv 3fac86ff1d

would have sufficed

Instead, they give a mini git tutorial.

This comment is not a taunt at MS. Just that they have tried to learn git and the process, given that git now has a very good implementation on Windows and since they are trying to do something similar here - bringing Redis to Windows - it doesn't look good.

</comment><comment><USER26> A patch file in a gist instead of a pull request? _sigh_

<comment><USER27> It's really no wonder why people don't contribute to open source when _this_ is the first response.

<comment><USER28> And if someone previously uninvolved with your work showed up one day and dumped a few weeks of a teams work in your lap in one giant patch that affected most of your codebase, you'd say thanks and look to merging it in rather than talk about proper process?

Most projects have a process and gigantic monolithic patches that include entire new projects and "cleanup" updates to core all wrapped up in one are unmanaged and unmergable. It's for the sake of process.

<comment><USER27> Of course I'd prefer they work in a way which meshes with existing process, but I'm not going to act dismissive and sigh if someone goes another way. If someone removed the GIL from CPython and gave me a context diff, for one I would barely be able to read that format, but I'd find a way to make it work.

Pull requests are great, but it's not like someone couldn't apply the patch and give them a hand - earlier in the thread someone did just that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Ok. I got it! They don't want to use git, because git is from Linus ! so they just submit a patch :-P

</comment><comment><USER29> Spent the time on doing such big patch, and not spend the time on learning (5 min max) how to do a pull request... make me think they were forced to do this kind of thing.

So once the code is in, no maintainer from microsoft will be.</comment>


Jet.com chose Azure over AWS - <AUTHOR> http://techgroup.jet.com/blog/2015/08-17-realtime-pricing-realtime-advertising/index.html

<comment><USER2> Not surprising, given their competitive positioning against Amazon. In other words: was this a technical or business decision?

<comment><USER3> they use F# also, so answer is "both".</comment></comment>


Deno 1.0: What you need to know - <AUTHOR> https://blog.logrocket.com/deno-1-0-what-you-need-to-know/ <comment><USER2> I thought the point of TypeScript was to transcend certain limitations of the JavaScript language, while still being able to write for browsers.

It's a bit awkward, you have a transpile the script, and generate source maps to debug it, but hey, that's life in a browser.

So if you're not stuck in a browser, and can run any language you want, why in the world would you do all that?

<comment><USER3> This is not about TypeScript per se but about providing a more standards-based alternative for the Node.js JavaScript eco-system for non-browser environments.

<comment><USER2> I am beginning to think the JavaScript ecosystem for non-browser environments is a deepening spiral.

Learning another language does require effort, but the increasingly circuitous machinations being invented to continue using browser scripting technologies outside the browser are starting to seem like even more effort.

Plus, those efforts yield skills that only apply within the contrivance. A second language would apply more broadly, and probably be more edifying.

<comment><USER3> Makes sense. But on the other hand JavaScript is currently more important than just another script-language for browsers. Browser has become the universal GUI platform. You want your application be usable over the web. So there's a lot momentum behind JavaScript, and also lot of effort to make it better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This looks absolutely fantastic!!

For some reason I assumed Deno was an "experimental" project, didn't realise it would be released so soon.

* Use TypeScript without transpilation

* Need explicit permissions for filesystem, network etc

* Extends JS standard library with useful modules like fetch, logging etc

* Builtin tooling like test runner, formatter etc

<comment><USER5> If I'm not mistaken, it still transpiles TypeScript to Javascript. It just has the TypeScript compiler built into deno itself, but the transpilation step is still happening (just kind of invisibly to the user).

<comment><USER6> Isn't that the best part?

No more tsconfig files and all that nonsense.

Typescript is a great language and it has a direct target for development now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For now the combo of a Rust backend with native TypeScript support means that type safety can be expected (but not enforced) and disabling access to net and system by default does improve on Node's behaviour and reduces the risk of importing a module that takes over the host system.

This is tempting... but now my question is: what will Deno do or have that will make those who've invested years in Node consider switching?

</comment><comment><USER8> Wish it had a better name to gain more attention.</comment>


The Life and Times of AdMob, the early days - <AUTHOR> http://admob.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_archive.html

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been following AdMob's progress since their launch, and am honestly a bit surprised that it took someone this long to acquire them. I thought you guys might enjoy reading the founder's old blog posts to see where it all started.

This post is particularly amusing: <http://admob.blogspot.com/2006/01/wwgd.html>

You'll notice, when looking at the early months of 2006, that AdMob attained significant growth almost immediately; sometimes things just work out.

<comment><USER2> Thanks. I found that interesting, but what caught me more was how Omar approached the obvious Google problem. Mainly the fact that he realized early on that the potential market size was large enough that the entrance of Google wouldn't be the beginning and end of mobile advertising.

Another interesting post along the same lines was the post on the Launch of the iPhone. [http://admob.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-does-iphone-mean- for-...](http://admob.blogspot.com/2007/01/what-does-iphone-mean-for- admob.html)</comment></comment>


How to create your online brand guidelines kit in under 1 hour - <AUTHOR> http://filecamp.com/brand-guidelines/

<comment><AUTHOR> 33 essential items to include in your company's online brand guidelines, and a pre-configured online brand guidelines kit to get you up and running in under 1 hour - 100MB complementary storage.</comment>


Federal agents make domestic flight passengers show ID to disembark plane - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/02/23/federal-agents-ask-domestic-flight-passengers-to-show-ids-in-search-for-undocumented-immigrant/ <comment><USER2> This is incredibly disturbing. This reminds me of all the random border patrol checkpoints set up in Arizona and California that were hundreds of miles from the border, stopping all the highway traffic. Of course this is where all those famous Checkpoint USA videos come in ([https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA](https://www.youtube.com/user/CheckpointUSA)).

I can only imagine what would happen if they just started stopping everyone on the freeway asking for ID...

And so it begins.

<comment><USER3> The federal government has additional powers near a border to do certain things, like set up checkpoints.

But, here's the ridiculous part, they define "near a border" as anywhere in the US that is 100 miles from a border or the ocean.

So, virtually all of California is in the "constitution free zone" \-- as are a full 2/3rds of the US population.

[https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border- zone](https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone)

<comment><USER4> And ports of entry are defined as borders, so all the international airports count too: [http://imgur.com/a/DqDeQ](http://imgur.com/a/DqDeQ)

It's my quick & dirty edit of their image.

<comment><USER5> Huntsville provides more coverage between Birmingham and Nashville.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For those of you unaware, it's illegal to be caught without your green card. That much is not new.

[http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my- green-...](http://immigrationroad.com/blog/do-i-have-to-carry-my-green-card- around/)

<comment><USER7> But it's not illegal for a _US citizen_ to be carrying no form of identification, which makes "you have no papers" kind of a flimsy argument: how do you know the person is not, in fact, a citizen? Especially on a _domestic_ flight, where there was nothing forcing any of the US citizens on the flight to bring travel documents like a passport with them.

<comment><USER8>
      But it's not illegal for a US citizen to be carrying no form of identification

_On a commercial flight?_ Of course it is. This is different from accosting a pedestrian on a street without probable cause.

[EDIT: Note what the regulation actually says:

"If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to _enter the screening checkpoint_." (That does NOT, in itself, include _boarding a plane_.) Continuing: "You may be subject to additional screening. You will _not be allowed to fly if your identity cannot be confirmed_ , you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process."

So, had there been passengers for which a knowing exception had been made, the investigators would have known that going in. So, it's wrong to say that "it's illegal" to be on a commercial flight in that case, but for the purpose of this specific search, any such granted variances would have had to be _on record, and known_ to the investigators.

<comment><USER9> That's just not true. I've gotten on planes without ID before, after losing my driver's license. I got patted down extra thoroughly, but there's no issue of legality.

<comment><USER10> This. It is very possible to fly without ID. Have done it several times due to lost wallet/id. Takes longer. And there is more verification. But def possible.

<comment><USER11> Indeed. And that's not an anachronism, I just did it 2 years ago when I forgot my license. Just had to show them a credit card.

<comment><USER12> I did it last week when I accidentally shipped my wallet containing my drivers license and passport home before flying home. It's nothing more serious than waiting a little more before getting through the line.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This has happened to me twice on Canadian flights; the second time I asked one of the police officers what was going on, and they said they were looking for someone whom the flight manifest said was on board the plane. I suppose they could have come onto the plane to pull someone off, but that would have delayed everybody far more than checking ID on the way off.

I wouldn't want this to be a routine fishing expedition, but if there's someone specific they're looking for and they have a reason to think the person in question is on the plane, I really don't see any problem.

<comment><USER11> Allowing violations of our rights "just in this case" is how they get stripped down to nothing. The government does not have the right to demand your ID at any time they please.

<comment><USER13> I'm not saying "at any time they please". I'm saying "when they have probable cause to believe the person they're looking for is on the plane".

<comment><USER11> I don't think that's sufficient probable cause. They don't suspect that _everyone_ on the plane is an illegal immigrant

More importantly, they should plenty of less-invasive procedures. The airline should have a passenger manifest of everyone who actually flew, for one thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Oh good, I can't wait to see what awesome innovations rapid militarisation of our country will bring!

</comment><comment><USER15> Since it's easy to be unclear of your legal rights and protections, can you ask officer if you're legally obligated to comply with their request, and if they're recorded lying can the agency be held accountable?

That might be another way to try and have a legal push back, as most people, probably myself too, might not feel up to trying to stand their ground on their rights impromptu with no time to become aware of whatever specific rights will challenged ahead of time.

<comment><USER16> My non-lawyerly understanding is that in theory, officers of the law have substantial protection as long as they can claim they were not willfully violating your rights. On top of that, in practice they have even more protections ([http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4221000))

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Would love to know the legal details behind this scenario and what rights people actually have to be stopped by various types of law enforcement, in such a simple case as just leaving a flight you were just legally on.

<comment><USER11> Constitutionally, they don't have a leg to stand on. The police cannot demand your ID without probable cause.

I wonder what would have happened if someone refused.

<comment><USER18> This really isn't unusual.

I was once stopped and asked for my ID (and other questions) because someone had committed a robbery in the area.

People are routinely stopped at checkpoints when crossing state lines, when police are searching for someone, and at "dragnets" for DUI and immigration.

And yet, suddenly, the left-wing media cares?

Could that have anything to do with their candidate (Hillary) having lost the election?

They're going to exploit anything they can to make Trump look bad, just as the right-wing did when Obama was in office.

<comment><USER11> I agree it's not unusual and I doubt this has anything to do with Trump.

That doesn't change the fact that it's unconstitutional to require ID.

"Dragnets" are not a good thing. There's a _reason_ people often use them as a synonym for invasive and authoritarian tactics.

<comment><USER18> I'm just commenting on the media's sudden interest, which I think has everything to do with their opposition to Trump.

I (and many people on both sides) have been opposed to dragnets (including DUI and immigration dragnets) for a long time.

DAE remember when right wingers were mocked for those videos in which they simply responded "Am I being detained?"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Is there any evidence anyone refused? If not, then they can frame it as consensual and no one will have standing to challenge it.

<comment><USER20> Hurray!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Click bait title with a touch of _fear-mongering_ from another MSM outlet.

"as they searched for an undocumented immigrant who had received a deportation order to leave the United States."

"The search was conducted at the request of Immigration and Customs Enforcement"

Seems completely reasonable.

<comment><USER22> Why? What makes it reasonable to search all passengers on a plane to find an undocumented immigrant, that wouldn't also make it reasonable to search all passengers on a bus, or all congregants at a church, or all pedestrians at a crosswalk, or similar?

What happens if I don't have my citizenship papers with me? Is ICE going to take my word that I'm not the person they're looking for and I'm actually a citizen?

Why should I, a _natural-born US citizen_ , be obligated to carry my citizenship papers around with me in any of those situations just in case ICE decides to show up? I have certain rights as a US citizen, and one of those is that I expect to be able to travel domestically without carrying my papers and without ICE detaining me.

<comment><USER23> That you're a _natural-born_ citizen is completely irrelevant; naturalized citizens are no less entitled to the exact same rights less serving as POTUS. See the supreme court ruling from Luria v. United States, 231 U.S. 9 (1913). Link: [https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/231/9/case.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> pick up that can

</comment><comment><USER25> "Undocumented immigrant"? You mean illegal alien.

Also, providing ID is pretty normal. Especially on flights. Even domestic ones. Or so I thought. Then again I live in communist Canada.

</comment><comment><USER26> This administration seems intent on creating problems within what have been relatively stable systems.

<comment><USER27> What is the problem being created? They were looking for a fugitive

<comment><USER28> Why would they check everyone's ID instead of just the people who looked like the person they were looking for? At least people who are obviously the wrong age and sex...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Analysis from the Identity Project (PapersPlease.org):

"...In the case of Delta Flight 1583, we don't know what would have happened if a passenger declined to answer questions, declined to show ID, or tried to walk past the CBP officers and leave the plane. Some of the passengers might perfectly legally have passed through TSA checkpoints and boarded the flight without having or showing any ID, as people do every day.

It's unclear whether a court would find that, in the circumstances depicted in this photo, a reasonable person would have felt free to leave without answering questions or showing ID documents.

The Supreme Court has also ruled that law enforcement officers questioning and searching passengers on a common carrier are not required to tell you whether you have to comply with their "requests", or to tell you whether you are free to leave.

The only way to find out whether you are required to answer questions is to stand mute. The only way to find out if you are required to produce or hand over documents is to keep them out of sight and not to hand over or open your bags or put your hands in your pockets. The only way to find out if you are free to leave is to walk away. The only way to find out whether government agents will allow you to exercise your rights is to exercise your rights. Only then are you likely to be found to have standing to challenge any infringement of your rights.

So far as we can tell, all the passengers on Delta Flight 1583 produced and handed over documents that the CBP officers found acceptable, and were then allowed to leave. So we will probably never know whether the courts would have upheld the legality of the CBP officers' actions."

More (including links to statute and regulations purporting to authorize CBP boarding of domestic flights):

[https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and- id-...](https://papersplease.org/wp/2017/02/24/border-search-and-id-demand- from-passengers-on-a-domestic-flight/)</comment>


RESTful API and a Web Site in the Same URL - <AUTHOR> http://www.yegor256.com/2014/09/09/restful-web-sites.html

<comment><USER2> I've taken this approach for a long time now - not only does it mean less work overall, it means none of this "the API now supports feature X that the Web UI has supported for 4 months" \- they are the same codebase and thus parity is a given.

-Edit I don't mean this specific implementation using XSLT, I mean serving html, xml, json, csv, etc data from the same url -/Edit

The article makes mention of using XSLT (which basically means your "api" is only usable as XML) but it's so much simpler than that.

This type of thing is _exactly_ what the HTTP Accepts header is for. The client says it accepts "application/json" you return a json encoded result. The client says it accepts "application/xml", you send an XML result. The client says it accepts text/html, you send an HTML result.

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly! I didn't mention that in the article, but, of course, the format of the output depends on the Accept HTTP header. I'm using mostly Java, and JAXB+JAX-RS helps to switch between formats without touching the data.</comment></comment>


A woman who doesn't feel pain - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-47719718 <comment><USER2> I read in New Scientist that they've discovered a way in mice to turn off the connection between pain receptors and the emotional response to pain in the brain. So the mouse feels the pain in the sense of recognising it, but doesn't have a negative feeling associated with it. That's like a half-way point; you wouldn't injure yourself accidentally (as the woman), but you also wouldn't suffer if enduring chronic pain.

[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132143-900-silencin...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132143-900-silencing- brain-cells-in-mice-can-make-them-no-longer-care-about-pain/)

<comment><USER3> Experienced meditators are supposed to achieve this. I have read that they can have surgery without anesthetics (Gandhi supposedly did it too). They feel the pain but they do not suffer from it.

<comment><USER4> source please.

<comment><USER5> [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S152659000...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1526590009006919)

[https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2010-01983-012](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2010-01983-012)

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030439591...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030439591000223X)

[http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/14/5540)

[http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/46/15307](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/46/15307)

<comment><USER6> Naively it makes sense, pain is just a sensation, but suffering is more complex. I doubt that we can truly shit off sensitivity to noxious stimuli, but meditation (and maybe some generic factors) seem like a way to manage reactions to that stimuli. Having said that, and skimming the links, I'd guess there's a limit. A lot of what we'd naively expect to be excruciating is more upsetting and distressing than purely painful. Some things however, like inflammation of the trigemanal nerve, is really a source of intractable pain. I have my doubts that meditation would be of much use in that context, or extreme osteogenic pain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm baffled by the fact she only realized it when she was 65. I understand that when you were born like that it might just be normal, and maybe you don't put too much thought into it, but it's just... Didn't she ever wonder why other people scream like crazy when they touch a hot pan, hit their head, and she doesn't? Didn't other people realize in those 65 years that _she_ doesn't have any reaction when it happens to her? Did she maybe just "learn" to say ouch when she hits her toe against the door frame, because that's what others do?

Also how did she not die as a child? When you never get the negative feedback of touching something got, cutting yourself, breaking a rib falling off a tree... This is just crazy to me, more than the fact that this condition actually exists.

<comment><USER8> I read the same story from NY Times, which had a more detailed write up. She likely inherited the genes from her dad. "Likely" because they can't test her dad's genes since he's deceased. Her dad didn't really feel pain either, so growing up it was not that abnormal.

Her son has a similar mutation but daughter doesn't.

NY Times Article: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/health/woman-pain- anxiety...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/health/woman-pain-anxiety.html)

<comment><USER9> Right. You're normal, and everyone else are just whingers.

Reminds me of Ferro, in Abercrombie's _First Law_ trilogy. She felt no pain. But she was not at all happy. More like always angry.

<comment><USER6> That was such an amazing series, and I found it had a lasting emotional impact. I still feel vaguely hurt and angry when I think about it!

<comment><USER9> Same here. I've read that, on one level, it's a satire on the Ring Trilogy. It's almost pure tragedy (with issues resolved through destruction) but has some very sweet comedy (with issues resolved through friendship and marriage).

And there are virtually no pure heroes or villains. I mean, he gets you feeling sympathetic with an expert torturer. And with a bunch of more-or-less psychotic marauders. Because he gets to to understand what's shaped them. What they've been through. And as well, it's loaded with great fight sequences.

If you haven't read his other books in that world, I highly recommend it. There's one that's largely about Logen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> inspector-g For anyone curious about why pain is an incredible predictor of/protector from danger, and why lack of pain experiences often leads to massive injury and early death, please watch this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCF1_Fs00nM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCF1_Fs00nM)

The lecture is given by a respected pain research scientist, and it also covers much of modern pain science (including why the biomedical model of pain is outdated and how the biopsychosocial model of pain is more representative of observations of human pain experiences).

</comment><comment><USER10> Not feeling pain can have some really disabiliting effect on one's life. A rather famous player in the Counter-Strike community suffers from a rare genetic disease that make him feel much less pain than normal. He started to scratch his nose out of habit when he was a kid, and eventually it came off over the course of years of scratching. His name is lo0p__ : [https://www.twitch.tv/lo0p__](https://www.twitch.tv/lo0p__)

Edit: You can see him explain the effects of not feeling pain in this video - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XalQkahQbpE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XalQkahQbpE)

<comment><USER11> Here's an AMA he did, if anyone is interested in reading more about him specifically:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xmbu9/iama_16_year_o...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4xmbu9/iama_16_year_old_who_doesnt_feel_pain_ama/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This seems to be the paper referred to in the article:

Srivastava & Cox, "Microdeletion in a FAAH pseudogene identified in a patient with high anandamide concentrations and pain insensitivity" (22 Feb 2019) [https://bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912(19)30138-2/full...](https://bjanaesthesia.org/article/S0007-0912\(19\)30138-2/fulltext)

</comment><comment><USER13> Pain free I believe, but I call bullshit on this part of the story: _" When he found I hadn't had any, he checked my medical history and found I had never asked for painkillers."_

Ha!! Like you can just "check someone's medical history." Yeah right! As if that history were in a single, easily queried database or something! Everyone knows real human medical histories are spread out over thousands of dog-eared pages hanging out of faded, worn-out folders located in dozens of doctors offices and hospitals across this great country of ours! What planet does that woman live on?!!

<comment><USER14> The East or West coast of US?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> You don't understand how important a feedback signal pain is until it's gone.

I dated a girl who had a brain tumor removed as a child. As a result of this she had an incredibly high tolerance for pain. I don't mean stub-your-toe tolerance. I mean beat-me-with-a-belt-so-I-can-feel-something tolerance. Obviously it made for some interesting fun. Eventually I had to stop dating her out of fear I was going to permanently injure her in her search for pain sensations. She literally scared me.

<comment><USER16> I'm really curious... (I'm a sadist, but only with consent and permanent injury is a hard nope) did you try electricity? I've played with several folks with high pain tolerance, and electroplay really seems to "cut through" everybody's defenses. But it's not obvious how that would go, if the neurological signals are getting blocked...

<comment><USER17> Why do you get off on hurting people?

<comment><USER18> I'm guessing the same reason people get off on, say, looking at big asses (or feet). Why does anybody get off on anything besides regular, biological, strictly-procreational sex?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I knew a girl who couldn't get drunk (bottle of vodka and no effect), she had to fake it sometimes not to look alcoholic. She said she wasn't the only one in the family.

<comment><USER20> Calling bullshit.

Probably a alcoholic or something.

<comment><USER21> A quick Google search yields people like these: [https://www.quora.com/Is- there-anyone-that-cannot-get-drunk](https://www.quora.com/Is-there-anyone- that-cannot-get-drunk)

<comment><USER22> A quick Google search of "quora" can also yield numerous sources stating it is full of bullshit. Of course, a quick Google search of any of those further sources will probably lead to the same thing...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> What's also interesting is the other consequences of her condition. She doesn't get fear or adrenaline response and might be able to heal faster than most people.

<comment><USER9> Right, I noticed that too. Also the "happy gene" thing.

I recall from Hofstadter the idea that feedback loops in consciousness rely on some of the same components that mediate the senses. So anger and fear are rather like mental pain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Even more interesting there is also a a women who exists who literally cannot feel any fear.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M._(patient)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M._\(patient\))

There is a radiolab podcast where they actually interview her.

</comment><comment><USER25> For some insight into the value of pain, and the hazards of being without it, _Pain: the Gift Nobody Wants_ (also published as _The Gift of Pain_ ) by Paul Brand & Philip Yancey is a fascinating read.

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pain-Nobody-Wants-Paul- Brand/dp/006...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pain-Nobody-Wants-Paul- Brand/dp/0060170204)

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gift-Pain-Hurt-What- About/dp/031022...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gift-Pain-Hurt-What- About/dp/0310221447)

<comment><USER26> For people suffering from chronic pain, the benefits of turning off pain completely would far outweigh the risks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Look up Gabby Gingras if you're not convinced how dangerous that condition is. She became legally blind from scratching her own eyes as a child (among other things).

<comment><USER28> There was a documentary called a life without pain a few years ago about her and a boy from Norway with the same condition. Kids with this condition usually die at a very young age due to injuries.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Life_Without_Pain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Life_Without_Pain)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> This confuses me a little. I remember when I was a kid watching a documentary about this condition. It is generally a severe danger to the person as they do not naturally learn the penalties for a broken bone or severe burn. Pain is a very important signal. The media articles on this at the moment are making it sound never heard of before and possibly something we want.

</comment><comment><USER30> Having no pain, okay.

But having no anxiety? wow, that sounds like true heaven to anxious me.

<comment><USER31> You would think the same about pain if you were in chronic, debilitating pain.

<comment><USER30> I have chronic pain. I hate that it makes my anxiety even worse and it's anxiety what really burdens me the most (feeling nonfunctional, feeling anxious, having panic attacks or triggers)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I'm surprised she didn't lose more limbs!

</comment><comment><USER33> I remember reading about this condition in a natural science schoolbook, along with an explanation that it's dangerous for the affected person, since they are lacking the signals warning them their body has a problem.

</comment><comment><USER34> Can some one like this pickup a sport like running and run to death?

<comment><USER35> Wondering as well. Could they be incredible in some cardio sport because they could push themselves. Or would they push too hard? Or is the type of pain different so they feel discomfort same as we do?

What about holding your breath? The pain is from co2 in your lungs, not a lack of o2, so it is mostly your brain/will stopping you from holding it longer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> We have a small village in Sweden that is known for roughly 40 cases of the same thing. They're basically made fun of because a lot of the village population are related so it could be a case of inbreeding among relatives.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain)

</comment><comment><USER37> Sounds horrible actually, just imagine living with all those little risks of hurting yourself everyday. I remember I was amazed when ophthalmologist warned me not to touch my eyes 30 mins after the eye examination because anesthetics numb the sensation enough that you can accidentally cause the cornea abrasion without noticing it. This is like it, but applied to your whole body for whole life.

</comment><comment><USER38> I can't find the condition name in the article but I remember a House MD episode (3x14) that the patient had this condition and it was called CIPA (Congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain_with_anhidrosis)

</comment><comment><USER39> House MD had an episode about this condition in 2007: [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0917153/](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0917153/)

You would think a friend might mention it - I would think a close friend must notice a complete lack of pain response.

</comment><comment><USER40> No pain during child birth. Can you imagine the look on those doctors' faces.

<comment><USER41> They probably figured that she got a little too much painkiller. When something unexpected happens the human mind usually tries to attribute it to something that is already known.

<comment><USER42> According to the article, her medical records said never been given painkillers (although it could well be she's never _asked_ for painkillers, which I suppose is a different thing all together.)

In the UK at least, most women only use Entonox (a mixture of oxygen and nitrous oxide) for pain relief, and painkillers are only administered during lengthy pregnancy's. I wouldn't be surprised if the doctors/midwives were a little baffled, but just figured she was a hard nut.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> "Jo Cameron only realises her skin is burning when she smells singed flesh. She often burns her arms on the oven, but feels no pain to warn her."

Maybe stop cooking?

</comment><comment><USER44> She has to feel some pain, otherwise she would have severely damaged her fingers, toes over the years like people with diabetic neuropathy or leprosy do.

<comment><USER45> Maybe she can sense or feel? This article didn't explain it in detail, what is the tolerance of pain, is it just skin or muscle. How does it even affect the sleep cycle since muscles don't feel fatigue? She could've broken many Guinness records but she didn't.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I don't think that this is a good thing to have. Leprosy patients lose their fingers because of lack of pain.

<comment><USER47> I know that's part of it, but there's got to be _something_ more going on with leprosy patients. Random bruises and scratches do not normally fester until things start falling off, even if you ignore them.

<comment> crooked-v > even if you ignore them

But you _don 't_ ignore them. If you have a bruise on your shin, you may not think much about it, but it's pretty unlikely that you'll bump your leg just as hard again on the coffee table on the same spot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Similar:

Indian chef dips his BARE HANDS in searing 200C cooking oil to fry street food... and doesn't suffer any burns...

[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317037/Indian- chef...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317037/Indian-chef-dips- BARE-HANDS-searing-200C-cooking-oil-fry-street-food-doesn-t-suffer-burns.html)

<comment><USER49> This has to be complete BS or he doesn't have an organic hand. Protein WILL NOT stand up to that heat.</comment></comment>


Google rolls out DNS-over-HTTPS support in Chrome 83 - <AUTHOR> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/20/google_chrome_83/ <comment><USER2> For those of you worrying about what this will do to parental controls, I did a little bit of research.

In this blog the chromium team say:

[https://blog.chromium.org/2019/10/addressing-some- misconcept...](https://blog.chromium.org/2019/10/addressing-some- misconceptions-about.html)

> The first claim is that Google is going to redirect user DNS traffic to > Google's own DNS or another DoH-compliant DNS provider. That is incorrect. > Because we believe in user choice and user control, we have no plans to > force users to change their DNS provider. Today, there are many independent > DNS providers, although ISPs serve approximately 97% of user DNS needs. As > long as these service providers keep catering to user needs and concerns, it > will remain a diverse ecosystem. We're simply enabling support in Chrome for > secure DoH connections if a user's DNS provider of choice offers it. Chrome > will check if the user's DNS provider is among a list of participating DoH- > compatible providers and if so, it will enable DoH. If the DNS provider is > not on the list, Chrome won't enable DoH and will continue to operate as it > does today. As DoH adoption increases, we expect to see the number of DoH- > enabled DNS providers grow.

This is re-iterated in the next paragraph

> The second claim we've seen is that the secure DoH connection will limit the > family-safe content controls offered by some ISPs. In fact, any existing > content controls of your DNS provider, including any protections for > children, should remain active. DoH secures the URL data only while it's in > transit between your browser and the DNS provider, so your provider's > malware protection and parental control features will continue to work as > they have in the past.

So this isn't going to break parental controls by default...

...unlike Firefox's proposed scheme which requires action by the DNS providers.

[https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/configuring-networks- di...](https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/configuring-networks-disable-dns- over-https)

<comment><USER3> Using DNS for parental controls is likely not very effective except for very young children. Most devices that you would give to children (anything from Apple, most Android devices, Chromebooks, Windows) offer parental controls that aren't as easy to circumvent and work on networks other than your home network. Of course, it might be good to use both as a sort of defense in depth.

<comment><USER4> Parental controls on chromebooks are awful. Family Link itself is a badly put together product, but its claim to support ChromeOS is woeful, half of the stuff doesn't work, and mysteriously disappears from the app when the device in question is a chromebook.

They haven't done a good job. FWIW I work for Google, mean no offense to the team that works on this, but it has all sorts of problems, including service reliability. My wife is taking UX design courses and one of her final course projects was a multi page paper breaking down a bunch of our issues with it :-)

We've been down this road for months. Issues at home with mental health damaging content being accessed repeatedly, and I ended up signing up for OpenDNS; problem solved [for now].

<comment><USER5> I've been extremely frustrated with the ux and functionality of family link.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> DoH is such a weird concept to me. It feels like HTTP is a pretty poor protocol to be eating the world.

I can easily imagine that the resources being spent on DoH are many orders of magnitude more than was spent on actually fixing or updating the DNS protocol.

This is not in defence of the current DNS system, I'm just sad that the only way we can think to fix DNS is to make it not DNS, but some form of HTTP name resolution.

<comment><USER7> There's value in solving the security challenges of HTTPS _once_ , and to then resist reinventing the wheel elsewhere. Using it for DNS doesn't strike me as a particularly bad case of shoehorning.

What specifically don't you like about the use of HTTPS? Would you prefer DNS- over-TLS? Apparently [0] that's an option too. I don't think it would be possible to be quite as lightweight as the plain old UDP-based DNS protocol while giving the desired security properties.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_over_TLS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_over_TLS)

<comment><USER6> I specifically mentioned "HTTP" and not "HTTPS" because, while there are some security extension headers in http; the majority of HTTPS's security is a solved-once situation already in the form of TLS.

The reason I don't like HTTP for all purposes is because, while it has proven to be expandable, I feel like we're going to have this "oh shit" moment in 10 years where we realise all the cruft we've added to it and how it's bogging down otherwise simple communication.

DNS was designed to be incredibly low latency, QUIC is a response to the high latency of TCP for HTTP in general; but then you're still sending a fair amount of content that is completely unneeded.

A few dozen bytes here and there don't matter much, but that mentality is why computers today have worse input lag than computers 30 years ago, despite being many hundreds of times faster.

<comment><USER8> DoH does _not_ fix the security issues with DNS. My ISP hijacks it and sends you to a page full of ads when you visit a missing domain just like older DNS. The browser vendors even provide explicit instructions for this.

Literally all this does is break things.

<comment><USER7> How does your ISP hijack an HTTPS connection? Are you using your ISP's DNS service?

<comment><USER8> They don't hijack https they hijack DoH. The point behind this is to protect the average user but they're just going to get the recursive resolver from dhcp. People who bother to use something are the same ones who will tunnel traffic or run their own resolver.

<comment><USER7> > They don't hijack https they hijack DoH

DoH stands for DNS-over-HTTPS. You cannot hijack DoH without hijacking an HTTPS connection.

> they're just going to get the recursive resolver from dhcp

In answer to my earlier question then, you're using your ISP's DoH DNS service, correct? If that's the case, there's no hijacking going on.

> People who bother to use something are the same ones who will tunnel traffic > or run their own resolver.

This is the reason Firefox went with CloudFlare's DoH. Resisting ISPs' bullshit is much of the point.

<comment><USER9> > You cannot hijack DoH without hijacking an HTTPS connection.

Not true. An ISP can always reroute packets where ever they want. Want to reroute from a trusted resolver to your own, which is bootstrapped over regular DNS? No problem. Client checks it? No problem, it will fallback to regular DNS.

<comment><USER10> Unless you have trusted a CA from your ISP, they won't have a valid cert. They can divert the packETS, but their response will be invalid (fail when the client checks the cert).

<comment><USER7> I addressed this in my response. You're right that redirection does little more than just blocking the traffic, on account of the certificate check, but if the attacker can force a fallback to regular DNS, that's a problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Isnt this something the OS should handle and Chrome just uses the OS interfaces for this?

<comment><USER12> Isn't TLS 1.3 something OS should provide?

Isn't QUIC something an OS should provide?

Isn't the OS responsible for preventing antivirus software installing insecure browser plugins?

Isn't the OS responsible for process sandboxing?

Isn't the OS responsible for secure font rendering?

Isn't the OS responsible for shipping with decent optimized image and movie decoding libraries?

The innovation must be pushed somewhere. These days it's being pushed by the browser vendors and not OS vendors.

<comment><USER11> Yep and not saying its entirely wrong, but check my reply to asdf-asdf-asdf.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The subsequent SSL requests still include the host in clear text, so while a move in the right direction, does little to stop request sniffing.

<comment><USER14> Right now yes, but when Encrypted SNI is adopted then not anymore.

It seems that when DoH and ESNI become the defaults there won't be much sniffing going on? (Apart from looking at the IPs of course.)

<comment><USER15> Star or thumbs up these issues if you want ESNI to be prioritized more:

[https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=908132](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=908132)

[https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/7482](https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/7482)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I wonder in what new ways will ISPs start blocking illegal websites.

<comment><USER17> Isn't the most common way to block "illegal websites" just to block it on the DNS owned by the ISP? (which is the one you will automatically use unless you configure something else). And just making their domain point to some website saying the site is blocked. Afaik this will still work. And the normal workaround of just changing to a different DNS should work aswell.

Is sniffing of traffic common in other countries?

<comment><USER16> I think that this change would mean that, by default, the DNS server used will be specified by Google/Chrome team. If the DNS server were still my router then there's no point to this really.

<comment><USER18> > the DNS server used will be specified by Google/Chrome team

I don't think that any oppressive regime is going to have any qualms about routing 126.96.36.199 to its own server, or just blocking it. So you use the national DNS or get nothing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Does this ignore the os hostfile like Firefox's DoH does?

</comment><comment><USER20> I use PiHole with a DoH upstream. I want all devices on my network to use my DNS server. Mozilla's implementation is easily managed using their canary domain "use-application-dns.net" but Google doesn't have this option. I do not want any queries sent to Google. It is not feasible to manage chrome flags on every device, especially mobiles. Does anyone know if Chrome will be using their two public IP's, 126.96.36.199 and 188.8.131.52 for this new DoH service? If that is the case this will be easy to block at the network level. Thanks.

<comment><USER21> Chrome Enterprise (which, contrary to what the name might suggest, is not a paid enterprise offering) offers management tooling for managing flags across many devices. Here's the flag for DoH: [https://cloud.google.com/docs/chrome- enterprise/policies/?po...](https://cloud.google.com/docs/chrome- enterprise/policies/?policy=DnsOverHttpsMode)

<comment><USER22> but Chrome Enterprise means it has to connect and phone home to Google all the time anyway, no? That defeats any potential benefit of having more control over the browser.

Given this is a "free" offering, the data being mined finances this service.

<comment><USER21> If parent wants to manage Chrome configuration across N devices, Chrome Enterprise is a good tool for the job. They may or may not care if their data is on Google servers or not. They might consider these two items to be two entirely distinct and different benefits.

If parent wants to avoid having any of their data cross Google machines, you are completely correct that Chrome is the wrong tool for the job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Is this a scheme from adcompanies like Google to circumvent Pi-hole?

<comment><USER24> Maybe not. Dns over http makes it easy to use for example [http://nextdns.io](http://nextdns.io) which is nice alternative for Pi-hole (and more convenient IMHO).

I think this is mostly against ISPs who would like to mess with/redirect your traffic (for example show their own page for mistyped URLs).

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> FWIW, this seems to be the GPO that controls DoH

[https://cloud.google.com/docs/chrome- enterprise/policies/?po...](https://cloud.google.com/docs/chrome- enterprise/policies/?policy=DnsOverHttpsMode)

I was looking for this as I want to explicitly control when I choose to enable DoH.

</comment><comment><USER26> it still obeys HOSTS right? have to assume that's a must

eta: oh interesting, at some point I turned on "managed" to prevent it from password cloud saving or some other nuisance and now I get this:

          Use secure DNS
              This setting is disabled on managed browsers

</comment><comment><USER27> So if I wanted to keep analytic data of where my users are going, should I set up my own office DoH server and forward requests to an external DoH? Would I be able to then use our in house DoH and get analytics from that?

</comment><comment><USER28> Running version 83.0.4103.61 but I don't see the DoH-related entries in Chrome Settings. Is this still in a phased rollout?

<comment><USER29> Option is visible under chrome://flags/#dns-over-https flag. However on Ubuntu 18.04 I've the message: "Not available on your platform.".

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> How will that affect things like pi-hole?

<comment><USER31> I have Pi-Hole configured to use DoT for it's outgoing DNS requests in a home network with a DNS server you trust using DoT internally is arguably less important.

I'll be looking to see if what configuration options are available and if I can set up a DoT server on the Pi-Hole.

Ideally I would want at least the ability to set DoT on/off by default based on the network I'm using so if it's the home network I don't care but all other networks I would like to have DoT as the default option.

It would also be interesting to see if there is a default fallback unto standard DNS or not.

<comment><USER32> Setting up recursive dns with unbound on the pi-hole

[https://docs.pi-hole.net/guides/unbound/](https://docs.pi- hole.net/guides/unbound/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> i'd rather have https over dns, to deal with wifi portals.

</comment><comment><USER34> So, then google get to decice what web sites that even exist in your universe. Nice played.

<comment><USER35> Chrome checks if the DNS server configured supports DoH, and if yes uses DoH to talk to it. How exactly does that mean that

> _google get to decice what web sites that even exist in your universe._</comment></comment>