Hospital checklists are meant to save lives, so why do they often fail? - <AUTHOR> https://www.nature.com/news/hospital-checklists-are-meant-to-save-lives-so-why-do-they-often-fail-1.18057 <comment><USER3> I wonder. Does the Hawthorne Effect ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect)) contribute to the success of these checklist regimes?

When surgical or emergency-department teams believe they're participating in an experiment to learn whether certain practices improve outcomes, do the outcomes improve?

Airplane pilots use checklists. It's illegal to start the engines unless the approved checklist book is within reach of the pilot in command. In training it's drilled into us that the response to panic is: get out the checklist and follow it. It works. duh. It's all too easy under pressure to forget to lower the wheels or turn on the carburetor heat, or whatever. The drilling in training is what makes the difference.

(Aviation gasoline cools as it vaporizes in carburetors. Under certain conditions that can make the carburetor fill up with ice. If that happens the airplane will land soon. Not good. So carburetors have heaters. )

Checklists have far less success in medicine. Heck, almost two centuries ago Dr. Ignatz Semmelweis ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis)) found that patients lived a lot longer when doctors and nurses washed their hands.

But, even in the 21st century, it's a struggle to get compliance with hand- washing rules in hospitals. Maybe something about medical training makes people resistant to fixed procedures. Maybe it's the age-old practice of eminence-based medicine rather than evidence-based medicine. It's a serious problem.

<comment><USER4> > But, even in the 21st century, it's a struggle to get compliance with hand- > washing rules in hospitals.

Ever talked with a nurse or a doctor? The reason is simple: way, way not enough staff at hand combined with maximum allowed/planned time for a certain procedure (e.g. 10 minutes for a full assisted shower) which only works in perfect conditions but falls apart under the slightest change (e.g. patient wet themselves), and combined with ruthless MBA-style C-level execs actually firing people for not keeping up with the numbers.

Medicine, especially highly critical / urgent care, needs to be socialized and shielded off from all negative effects of modern-day capitalism if this is to change.

<comment><USER5> You want to solve a problem caused by shortages with policies that historically always causes shortages? (Socialism)

Medicine is heavily regulated everywhere and people always complain about the same problems in the US and Europe, and these problems are the same kind of problems caused by regulation and guild-like organizations all around the world, in all industries at all points in time.

Even if you were to let someone else pay the bill, it's idiotic to have things organized as they're now.

<comment><USER6> There wasn't a nursing shortage back when the county ran the hospital in my area. But you know the laws of supply and demand: corporations have to manufacture scarcity to drive up KPIs

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> An ophthalmologist I know is an attending physician, which means she teachers new resident physicians.

She described a few surgeries to me and her role in the room as the resident performs the surgery. Her brain is the checklist for the surgical procedure. The culture seemed to be, you should be good enough to memorize these complex procedures.

Meanwhile I'm thinking, why not just have someone else in the room reading and confirming the next step to the surgeon?

I suspect the culture of medicine, and especially the culture of surgeons does not jive well with checklist culture.

<comment><USER8> This [1] is a great article that I think gets at this topic a bit. Basically, germ theory and anesthesia (ether) were both discovered around the same time. Yet anesthesia spread around the world in a matter of years, while germ theory is still a struggle for doctors and hospitals. I presume the reasons checklists are underutilized are similar, lack of immediate consequence, low probably of consequence, and added difficulty instead of simplifying things. We must do better.

[1] [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/slow- ideas](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/slow-ideas)

<comment><USER9> Ether was a new tool that lets you do something you couldn't do before.

Checklists were a new tool that required you to submit that you're stupid and should depend on inanimate paper to do what you already know.

<comment><USER10> Maybe part of medical training should include the difference between stupidity and fallibility then. If you made it to med school, you probably aren't stupid, but you are human.

<comment><USER11> I'd go with: part of any training for complex tasks. And even to kids in general. There are so many people I met who can't imagine that others make mistakes without any real reasons, which leads to unnecessary conflicts or workplace issues. It just happens - plan for people failing, not for punishing random failures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> They fail because of severe checklist fatigue according to my wife (a surgeon). Checklists are great - so let's do them for everything, ALL the time. People start to tune them out because they do the same checklist hundreds and hundreds of times and they often have many irrelevant things on them. The people using the checklists have little ability to change them or to improve them and so they start to suffer from checklist fatigue. As they say in the article:

> "There's no point in having an item that says, 'Have the antibiotics been > given?' if there are no antibiotics in the hospital," says Dixon-Woods.

The checklists that my wife uses are apparently filled with these types of irrelevant checks.

Not to say that they aren't useful, they are, but as this article points out the implementation of checklists often leaves a lot to be desired.

<comment><USER13> > They fail because of severe checklist fatigue

> checklists often leaves a lot to be desired.

You say yourself that checklists are great, and it is proven that they save lives. So if there is fatigue in using them over and over, and they are not perfect, well... get over it? Sure i can understand that it's boring to go through the same checklist 5 times a day, but come on, there are lives at stake here. If one of your wife patients gets an infection and dies because she forgot some important, simple, step because of "checklist fatigue" how would she feel?

<comment><USER14> I don't think that's what checklist fatigue means -- it's not about boredom or tedium.

It means that the more you keep having to skip over irrelevant items and the more you still depend on remembering other things that aren't on the checklist, the less likely any human being is to reliably follow the checklist -- because they accidentally skip over an item thinking it was the irrelevant one, or jump back to the wrong item (skipping others) because they got "off" the checklist to do steps that weren't on it.

The point of a checklist is that it's supposed to be a single idiot-proof source of truth in a specified area, reducing mental complexity and therefore reducing errors.

Once it stops being that because it isn't perfect, it can easily _increase_ mental complexity which requires _more_ brain use and increases errors. _That 's_ the fatigue.

So it's not a question of just "getting over it".

<comment> UK-AL Keeping a checklist up to date is incredibly important.

If you have skip items on a list, then human error pops up again

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I like what they do in the Japanese train system. You have to point at whatever you're doing and day aloud what it is before you check it off. That heavily reduces the amount of mindless checking via scanning the sheet that leads to items being checked off without being fully validated.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling)

<comment><USER16> I fly private planes as a hobby and during my training that practice was kinda grilled in to me. After flying for a bit, you end up realizing how easy it is to "see" something incorrectly, or to skip an item, etc. Even when there's no one else in the plane with me, I say things out let, touch nobs to confirm their position even though I checked it earlier and didn't touch the nob at all at any portion in the flight. (Good) Pilot training will make you aware of just how much trouble your mind can get you into.

<comment><USER17> Both of you have fat fingers.

<comment><USER18> I hope the landing gear isn't next to the ejection trigger.

<comment><USER17> In my defense downvoters, they both had typos, "day aloud" and "say things out let" and we're talking about pointing and touching dials here.

<comment><USER18> I got your back :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've never worked in a hospital, but I have plenty of experience with massive bureaucracies. And that gives me guesses, perhaps fanciful, about things that could go awry with surgical checklists. Anyone with relevant experience, please weigh in if these seem feasible.

1\. Every prominent error that occurs prompts administration to decree a new checklist item be added to provent it in the future. But these added items will not be root-cause fixes so will proliferate to the point that there are now several dozen of _negative checks_ to prevent these one-in-a-million mistakes. And so the lists will grow and grow, but no one will ever dare to take an item off. Because then if that mistake ever does reoccur, the admin that authorized its removal is up for a hearing in front of the firing squad.

2\. Some administrator somewhere, noticing redundancy within a given checklist will reinvent _control structures_. You'll have lists with loops and conditionals. And since the people creating these lists don't know what is "considered harmful" they will almost certainly add GOTO's. In fact, I'd be very surprised if GOTO's don't already exist in surgical checklists somewhere.

But then this addition of control structures could increase to the point that a surgeon could, potentially, be put into an infinite loop! So committees will be formed to ensure every path through a checklist actually can be completed. And someone, somewhere in a hospital conference room, when asked to PROVE the lists all terminate, will take a breath, sit back, and rediscover the halting problem.

<comment><USER20> Some patient record programs already allow control structures in the digital forms. Basic stuff like if(X) then show options Y or page Y - you get the point. I think I saw a goto type item last I checked, which was a little bit ago.

As offices go digital, some are doing it right and recreating the forms in the signing application. Other, lazier firms, have you fill out a scan (gag me with a spoon.)

The idea of a loop is a funny one, I wonder if anything checks for it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Key point is the last paragraph:

 _Fortunately, Fixsen says, the lessons of implementation science are "completely generalizable", and all programmes could benefit by noting the importance of engaged leadership, local adaptation and user buy-in. "It doesn 't matter how good the innovation is, it doesn't matter how much has been invested," says Fixsen. "If we don't have the implementation savvy, we're going to get the crummy outcomes that we have seen decade after decade."_

</comment><comment><USER22> Official role for checklists in healthcare: save lives!

True role of checklists in healthcare: save management in case of legal action.

Consequence: the checklist becomes longer and longer, and is done more and more frequently. To the point of being quite impractical.

Goal: in case of legal action, take refuge in checklists. At least one of the items is bound to be missing so you can divert responsibility to someone else.

Source: I do checklists. That's my job.

<comment><USER23> I replied elsewhere in the thread with a bit more detail, but my UAV checklists contain 100% material learned from experience _only_. They've grown a little (especially the packing list) as I've gotten out to the field and realized I didn't have a tool that would be useful to have, but they've also shrunk as I've eliminated equipment I no longer need (e.g. a programming cable for an ESC that I no longer use).

It's pretty disappointing to hear that that's how checklists work in your org. I feel like it's doubly negative: not only does it pretty much guarantee that they won't be followed because they're not particularly useful in that form; it also helps to ensure that the folks that have to use them will push back against checklists in general at their next job!

[I suppose that's what happened with me and JIRA too... it might be a decent product, but every org I've used it in has done a very bad job with it]

<comment><USER24> I think our boss has made a good job with our bug workflow, but she had the authority (and Jira access) to do what she (and the QA lead) wanted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> They fail because of egos and arrogance. This is the root cause of a lot of life's problems. People think they are above it and too smart etc. They hate being "told what to do". An example, I have a family member who will complain about texting and driving from some position of superiority but who does it constantly himself. When challenged with that behavior he refuses to acknowledge it. He believes he is above it, better than those who cause accidents, and only those "lesser" people need to follow rules. It's an incredibly common behavior and doctors are no different...and in some cultures more likely to assert their status.

<comment><USER26> > He believes he is above it

Honestly, he probably is. We need to have laws because _most_ people do it carelessly. Not necessarily because _all_ people do it carelessly. Naturally, those who know they do it safely aren't going to just lump themselves in with the majority that don't.

<comment><USER27> Most people who text and drive are doing it safely until they aren't. It only takes a second to fuck up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I was just thinking about the comparison between the medical industry and airline industry. In medicine you can (or have to) pay a premium to get the best doctors and expertise [1]. In the airline industry, the safety aspect is standardised across the board.

It doesn't matter if you are flying economy or 1st class you get the best in class safety, which is collectively shared across the industry. We pay a premium for the service and not to have better chances of surviving.

In an alternate universe, we could have had cheaper airline tickets which had not so great safety record and the good ones only in reach of the super wealthy.

[1]: I'm aware it may not be the case in some countries with completely free healthcare, but this applies to the majority of the world. Even in those countries with free healthcare for all, it is not uncommon to see huge wait times for some important procedures and being able to skip it by going through a private hospital.

<comment><USER29> I think the big difference is that with airlines, it is realistic to have a zero-tolerance approach to deaths, since the default expectation is that a plane will not crash. With hospitals, deaths are innevitable, so you can't just have a uniform set of regulations to ensure no one dies.

Also, I think you can definitely pay more to go on a safer plane - I would imagine more expensive airlines have newer planes and better maintenance - <USER2> the risk of death is so small it isn't worth the extra cost.

<comment><USER30> Things like this make me wonder: is it really worth for the airlines (I'm also talking about plane manufacturers here) to be this secure? I would assume it's not different from the automotive industry, where the security of your product depends primarily on financial reasons.

I feel like many people would be willing to trade some security for better ticket prices.

Of course there are differences with the car industry, one of them being the economic value of the vehicle and thus the loss in case of accident. I don't know if it would actually be profitable for them.

<comment><USER31> One big difference between the airlines and the automotive industry (or doctors) is that with airlines a crash doesn't just kill the paying passengers. It also usually kills the pilots and other crew.

This sets a floor on airline safety--it has to be safe enough that the airlines can readily find pilots. Some passengers, especially those who rarely travel, might accept more risk for a better price but I suspect that pilots, who might be making hundreds of flights a year, would not be so willing.

<comment><USER32> Indeed the pilot and flight attendants unions are leaders in driving safety procedures in aviation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> A lot of people seem to be hung up on the fact that there must be something special about doctors. They're too skilled, they operate in a unique environment, or that they're awful egotists with god complexes.

Pick almost any profession other than pilot, and checklists are something that most people will ignore, often for the same excuses doctors have.

It seems like it should be comparable, as both medical errors and aircraft crashes are taken seriously, but there's a huge difference in magnitude.

</comment><comment><USER34> Checklists have been incredibly effective in improving aviation safety. But just having checklists doesn't help much - there has to be a culture of following them and a ritual to following them.

<comment><USER35> When followed correctly it is my believe that checklists can raise the floor of the worst case outcomes. Said another way, actually following the checklist eliminates the low-hanging fruit of preventable mistakes.

<comment><USER36> Not a pilot but I follow mine rigorously when doing rote tasks I haven't automated yet and they save me from a lot of head slapping moments.

It's a habit I had to work hard at, item one on my list is usually don't skip any steps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Atul Gawande's book, The Checklist Manifesto, said that WHO's surveys found significant resistance by surgeons to using checklists — but if _they_ were going to be operated on, something like 93% of the surgeons said, in essence, _you 're damned right I want the surgeon to use a checklist._

</comment><comment><USER38> Article seems to identify main reasons as either poor implementation, or poor change management. Funny how much this reminds me of capital-A-gile, and Jeffries "we've tried baseball"[0]

\- we've implemented some simple changes that make things better!

\- everyone, let's all do this thing!

\- there! We've tried! It doesn't work

\- but you've bastardized the original idea beyond recognition

\- doesn't work!

[0] [https://ronjeffries.com/xprog/articles/jatbaseball/](https://ronjeffries.com/xprog/articles/jatbaseball/)

 _edit: formatting_

</comment><comment><USER39> Does anyone here use point-and-call or something similar for more mundane activities than trains and planes? I started doing this while driving a few years ago. I've gotten a good bit of shit over the years for it from skeptical passengers. Hard to point at a clear-cut win when it is about prevention.

<comment><USER40> I have a "punch every item" list for going out of my work building through the stairs, with the minimal necessary to be sure I can get back through the elevators and I have my belongings locked.

I do point and call a recipe ingredients when I try to cook. I would love to make a point and call routine for packing travel bags, but their 3D nature makes it hard.

<comment><USER39> > I have a "punch every item" list for going out of my work building through > the stairs

I have a little "dance," slap left-pocket (key / clip), slap right-pocket (phone, wallet), slap left-pocket again (double check keys), slap right-knee- pocket (knife). I should throw in a foot slap to make folks think I'm doing a Schuhplattler on my way out the door.

> I do point and call a recipe ingredients when I try to cook

You must have a nice spice shelf. I have 30+ spices in a narrow cabinet. Finding the right 4 is a chore unto itself.

<comment><USER41> Spectacles, testicles, wallet, watch! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> If something as seemingly straightforward as using checklists is difficult to implement in hospitals, maybe we shouldn't feel too bad about the slow, partial, and controversial adoption of programming methodologies?

<comment><USER40> Oh, our profession moves very quickly and very universally. It's unparalleled on that.

The controversy is usually about wether the movement direction is any good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> In aviation and nuclear-reactor operation, the ethos is that 1) _of course_ people are going to make mistakes, because we're human; 2) the point of _systems_ such as checklists and second-checking is to try to make sure the mistakes get caught before they have any effect; so 3) if you harbor resentment toward checklists, try to give yourself an attitude adjustment — learn to embrace and even enjoy them.

</comment><comment><USER43> Doing UX Design right now and the popular phrase is: "If only people would read instructions everything would be alright."

</comment><comment><USER44> As the article states, the issue is they are often poorly implemented or designed. If that's the case, what is surprising?

</comment><comment><USER45> Sounds like a great opportunity for a digital checklist with a computer vision, audio analysis component and deep learning backend that could quantify, and eventually automate the adherence to such checklists.

I wonder how many people would actually follow the checklist if they knew their compliance was being continually monitored and audited?

<comment><USER46> I think that misses one of the lessons of the study: people need to be invested in the checklist for it to help. In other words, they need to _want_ to go through the process. The checklist itself is not magical. When it's effective, it's because it formalizes everyone's desire to adhere to agreed- upon protocols that everyone agrees are beneficial.

<comment><USER30> Even though it seems clear that the checklist itself has to be well designed, I don't think it's a bad idea to ensure they are followed. Strategies like the one the OP proposed are independent from checklist quality.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I also wonder how much of an effect the prior conditions have... if a hospital is already doing a good job of following procedures without a checklist, it might not make as much a difference as for a place that wasn't doing so well before.

</comment><comment><USER48> Checklists are way overrated. To all the fanboys out there, how many of you regularly have checklists for things you do several times a day?

I know in the last ten years I've seen new processes with forms to fill out for mundane tasks and its PITA.

</comment><comment><USER49> In the documentaries about Apollo 11 that are rather easy to find these days, one of the things you hear over and over again is the "go"'s from various participants right before a launch or other milestone.

<comment><USER50> If you watch a modern rocket launch (the vast majority of which are livestreamed and uploaded to youtube) you hear the same.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I read the article, but I don't see if/where there is responsibility given for the checklist(s).

Most QA systems have a source of responsibility and multiple levels of review.

I wonder what would happen if there was a QA team (with sufficient education) at a hospital that had complete control over checklists and associated procedures. Would that improve the outcome when utilizing checklists?

\--- Anecdote ---

I've been in the hospital many times, and I've been present for pre-surgical checklists a few times. It was ALWAYS a nurse handling it, and it was never a nurse that I was familiar with during my care. All but once the interactions started with trying to figure out who I was... without asking me.

I can recall a number of times where there was a question, such as "Which body part is being operated on?", except I was told the answer. The "question" turned into "Looks like your right kidney is being removed", with a slight pause for me to object.

It always made me feel like the staff thought the purpose of the checklist was to complete the checklist, rather than to QA the system they're part of.

\--- Anecdote Extended ---

I suffered an unpleasant complication from this during a procedure.

I do not respond to anesthetics the same way as most people. It takes a MUCH larger dose to knock me out, and to keep me out. (years of desensitizing medications \+ big (very tall) person + MC1R gene).

I know this. I can communicate my past procedures and the doses administered. USUALLY they are supposed to ask if you've had any prior procedures and potentially follow up with questions about allergies, anesthetics and other questions related to sedation.

I was not asked. I didn't think to speak up because I was already being inundated with stimulus.

The result? The first "count down from 10" resulted in me counting to 0 and asking "What next?".

I vividly remember the abject horror on the face of the nurse. She fumbled around, whispered to the anesthesiologist, whispered to other nurses. People shuffled around and nobody said a word to me.

I was scared. It felt like forever before I was asked to count down from 10 again. It worked that time...

Until I woke up in the middle of the procedure!

When I woke up in post-op, I asked the nurse about it and she told me that I wouldn't remember any of it. She told my wife that I wouldn't remember the couple hours after post-op.

I remember every single nurse's and doctor's name involved and the discussions my wife had with the doctor in post-op (which she confirms my recollection).

It could have all be avoided if someone just said, "Hey, have you had a procedure where you've been under general anesthesia before?"

I bet that checkbox was ticked though.

</comment><comment><USER52> I've tried to read The Checklist Manifesto twice now, and I couldn't because I'm too squeamish.

</comment><comment><USER53> If I saw both _Mark the surgical site_ and _Introduce yourself by name_ on the list, I would also be suspicious about which items were saving lives and which were wasting my time.

Separately, maybe it would work better to give the checklist to the patient and have her check off the items.

In light of some comments, it appears I wasn't clear. My point was that the problem is having BOTH those items on the list. Marking the surgical site is definitely worthwhile. Having it on the same checklist as introducing yourself dilutes the importance of it and the other important items on the list.

<comment><USER54> "Hey there Mr. Smith, I'm Dr. Brown. I'm going to be doing blah, blah, medical stuff, right here on your left abdomen." ... "Well that's the right spot doc, but I'm Mr. Jones."

<comment><USER55> Interesting in the UK your continuously responding with your name and hospital number maybe there is more turnover in the US system.

Though I am a long term patient with a chronic condition so that might make a difference.</comment></comment></comment>


Simple, precise, future-proof accounting for techies - <AUTHOR> http://hledger.org/ <comment><USER2> Site layout is broken on mobile (at least Android Chrome)</comment>


Official scan of Bust of Nefertiti released after three years of stonewalling - <AUTHOR> https://reason.com/2019/11/13/a-german-museum-tried-to-hide-this-stunning-3d-scan-of-an-iconic-egyptian-artifact-today-you-can-see-it-for-the-first-time/ <comment><USER2> I have friends who work for WilmerHale. The SPK likely spent more than the €5 000 they'd taken in on the scan on the legal fees alone.

It's a shame to read this because the SPK does support good scholarship (I own a number of their publications) but Germany in particular seems to have a tight-fisted zero-sum view of copyright. And these kinds of games, where they say "yes we know we have to follow the law but we don't feel like it" are surprisingly common in both German and France.

<comment><USER3> Not just Germany and France. It's surprisingly prevalent in the UK too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Many of the big and well known museums have their most famous exhibits stolen or "bought". These global heritage artifacts are kept under closed doors to generate revenue for the museums and not returned to the countries they originated from. The least they could do is to provide high resolution/detail digital scans freely available to everyone.

</comment><comment><USER5> It's hilarious to me they're claiming copyright over it. The original copyright holder, Nefertiti, died over three millennia ago, and she sure as shit wouldn't have transferred the copyright to the German government.

I wonder if their copyright claim has any relevance to the ongoing demands for repatriation to Egypt. If the German government claims copyright, certainly the Egyptian government has a better copyright claim. There's probably some sort of legal gotcha! in there but I don't know what it is.

Certainly the fact that the German government is claiming copyright protection for a 3,000 year old Egyptian artifact they stole 80 years ago should clue us in that copyright law is fucking broken.

<comment><USER3> I wonder if their argument is somewhat similar to the "database right" \- the common example being a telephone directory. There's no copyright in the mapping between names and phone numbers, but there is in the specific database of them. (IANAL, don't take this as gospel!)

So while the original artefact may be long out of copyright, are they under the impression that their scan is somehow a new work or some kind of copyrightable derivative?

I do love the way this came about -- first an bland statement that they derive profit from licensing, followed by (legitimately) asking for the data to support that claim under FOIA. Fantastic!

<comment><AUTHOR> A telephone directory is the standard example (in the US) of a work in which there is no intellectual property right at all. Are you thinking of something else, or perhaps a different country?

[https://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/499_US_340.htm](https://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/499_US_340.htm)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._Rural_Telephone_Service_Co).

Reading the wikipedia summary, it looks like the key points of the decision are:

\- The association between an individual phone number and an individual name is an uncopyrightable fact.

\- A collection of uncopyrightable facts may nevertheless be copyrightable, given the editorial creativity involved in compiling those facts.

\- But the phone book involves no editorial discretion whatever; it is a list of every subscriber to the company (no discretion over what data is or isn't included), in alphabetical order (no discretion over what order the data is presented in), which the company is legally required to produce.

<comment><USER3> I think I've picked a bad example!

I was thinking along the same lines you explained -- that the facts wouldn't be copyrightable, but the overall work might be.

To that effect - the scan produces a point-cloud. If you repeated the scan, you'd get almost the same point-cloud. Thus, the point-cloud is a fact.

But the process of taking that point cloud produces a work, given the creativity involved in cleaning it up and checking accuracy, then making it into a model fit for release.

I was under the impression that the phone book's appearance and layout might be copyrightable (trade dress/look and feel), though that's more likely a trademark issue than a copyright one.

<comment><AUTHOR> > given the creativity involved in cleaning it up and checking accuracy

This opinion isn't informed by anything, but I feel like the more effort you put into making sure your point cloud is _accurate_ , the more fact-like and therefore uncopyrightable the point cloud becomes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Linked[×] via that article is a similar story of obtaining access to the official scan of Rodin's Thinker. It's an interesting tale told in the form of email and official letters...

[×] [https://cosmowenman.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/20190911-cos...](https://cosmowenman.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/20190911-cosmo- wenman-rodins-thinker-3d-scan-access-effort.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER7> There's so much data that could benefit the public that is hidden away it's mind boggling

</comment><comment><USER8> > SPK confirmed it had earned less than 5,000 euro, total, from marketing the > Nefertiti scan, or any other scan for that matter.

This is a fundamental issue in NGO's

They are there, in theory for humankind. But they are staffed by humans who are there to justify their wage.

This is not a small thing, NGO's spend their days re inventing a broken wheel because no one will share.</comment>


Ethics Question - <AUTHOR>

Scenario: DNS researcher sells research data and consulting services to domain name speculators.  The data is otherwise public and collectible by anyone, however relatively "few" are likely to have the same level of interest in DNS and to have done the same research.
Ethical or not?
I hope DNS is not too controversial a topic.  It receives some strange media coverage and is not well understood by many people in my experience.
My view is this: I see DNS, remote translation of names to numbers, as "unnecessary" for most end users of internets (cf. intranets).  I believe the Hosts or /etc/hosts file or a cached DNS server are 1. enough to meet such users' needs (i.e. to list all unique sites a user will visit in a lifetime), 2. small enough to be manageable with today's technology (e.g. the entire .com namespace could be addressed in a file under 150mb) and 3. simple enough for users to understand (e.g. analogous to an address book; cf. the concept of a distributed database).  Moreover, I believe users are quite capable of remembering 10-digit numbers, as they routinely do with telephone numbers, usually by maintaining a personal address book.  But I think users are never given the chance to evaluate these options, because 1. they are unaware of them, and 2. the usual sorts of "FUD campaigns", for lack of a better term. <comment><USER2> You could probably get a good discussion going on CircleID about this topic. I think it's evil, but other people (like registrars) are probably selling similar data to the bottom-feeders already, so what's one more?

Replacing DNS with host files would introduce a lot of friction into the Internet and you have given no reasons why host files are better.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> @wmf- friction? I use hosts and things go quite smoothly. Can you elaborate?

CircleID seems geared toward networking professionals, as far as I can tell. Their needs, as managers of large networks and network policy makers, are much more complex than those of the end users to which I refer. DNS serves networking professionals, enabling them to manage large dynamic networks (of which the "internet" was once one- we all know it is way to large to be viewed like that anymore). But what does DNS do for unsophisticated end users connecting to the internet?

Here's what it does (that hosts file does not do)

-subjects them to parked page ads

-subjects them to phishing

-subjects them to DNS spoofing

-subjects them to cache poisoning

-subjects them to ISP redirection schemes and data collection for commercial purposes

-necessitates DNS service which is subject to slowdowns, outages and, if outsourced by the ISP, fees (then passed to customers)

-allows domain name hype

-promotes trademark disputes

-foreign entrepreneurs taking over ccTLD's of undeveloped countries or territories

-allows heaps of crime, from petty stuff to very serious offences, to be anonymised, thereby encouraging many of these users to "do evil"

-creates complexity than these users will likely never understand

And what does the hosts file offer to these users:

-simplicity

-speed (if reasonably small; supplementing with a caching DNS server if hosts gets too big)

-transparency (a flat file "address book")

-reliability

-convenience (aliases = less typing)

My bank does not change it IP address every day. Yet DNS would have me look it up mutiple times in one hour. If we "fix" DNS who are we really protecting? The companies that have the greatest interests in the internet, Microsoft, Yahoo, Adobe, Google, etc. (and the most influence) do not change their IP addresses every day. I know their number(s) and where to find them. They are not playing hide and seek. But if we look at the entire namespace for the gTLD's we see how so much of it is rubbish: spam domains, adult sites, gambling sites, etc. These are the internet businesses who benefit from internet users who use DNS.

If the internet is to resemble the "brick and mortar" world in any sense and we are to allow consumers to do their spending on the internet on a grand scale (and that seems to be where we're headed), then there must be some _certainty_. My hosts file is that certainty, for me. It is my internet address book. It defines what I consider legitimate and excludes what I conside rubbish. Alas, others, who know nothing of the hosts file, are looking for their certainty and quality control elsewhere, perhaps through "security", dispute resolution, the courts, Congress, etc.</comment>


Ask HN: I want to charge in my web application, what to do legally? - <AUTHOR>

I am a non-US citizen and started creating a web application. I want to charge credit cards in the website, but I don't think it will bring big amounts of revenue - let's say $100 per month. I want to do this not for the money (although if possible, why not), but more for the sake of it. I have no idea what I should do legally. I want to charge internationally - having customers in Europe and the US. Should I incorporate? Does it matter where?
I'm asking it in the simplest form as I honestly don't know where to start here. I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars on legal/accounting counseling or hundreds of dollars for incorporation just for a small project that IF successful will only be worth a few hundred dollars for me. What do I need to do to legally charge and issue receipts worldwide online?
edit: To clarify, I have a paypal account (Premier, not business as I don't have a registered business), but the question is not about how technically to charge and process credit cards, but what do I need to do to make it fully compliant with the law (particularly American and EU law). <comment><USER2> start with paypal

<comment><AUTHOR> You raise an important point. I reference it now in an edit to the post.</comment></comment>


Dark Mode for Slack - <AUTHOR> https://slackhq.com/dark-mode-for-slack-desktop <comment><USER2> I've been using an unofficial Discord and Slack client called Ripcord for a while now. [https://cancel.fm/ripcord/](https://cancel.fm/ripcord/)

It uses a dark theme by default, which is very appreciated. Another huge plus is that it's not Electron garbage like the official Slack and Discord clients, so you don't have to effectively run one or two other entire web browsers just to do a bit of chatting. On the other hand, it is Qt garbage instead, so it still doesn't integrate with macOS's look and feel very well, and a long- standing bug is that when disconnecting my laptop from a wired ethernet connection, it doesn't automatically reconnect everything once the system switches over to wifi. Neither of these have stopped me from preferring it over the official clients, though. I recommend anyone not satisfied with the crust and bloat of the official Slack and Discord clients to give it a try.

EDIT: But, yes, IRC is still the better choice when possible.

<comment><USER3> As a KDE user, this looks really tempting. The only thing I'd be worried about is that using third-party clients is a violation of Discord's TOS, and I'd be terrified of getting banned for using it. Do you know if Discord has a history of banning Ripcord users, or is it something they look the other way on?

<comment><USER2> I've never heard of them banning anyone for using this or some other unofficial client, no. I'd imagine a more effective approach to urge people to use the official client would be to simply block access from unofficial clients first before they start entirely banning accounts and pissing people off… but you never know, I guess.

<comment><USER4> They've banned people for using modded clients in abusive ways, i.e. overriding spam/flood controls, which is reasonable. Unfortunately their official statement in response to those incidents was essentially "You can be be banned at any time for using modded or unofficial clients." They haven't actually done that to any legitimate users AFAIK, but their overreacting, user-hostile stance is worrisome, so I can see why amyjess is concerned.

<comment><USER5> Well if their spam/flood control is done in the client they should ban themselves from their job and let someone competent take over

<comment><USER3> It actually is. That's how slowmode works: if you send a message in a channel with slowmode, it sets a flag on your client telling it to not let you send anything for X seconds. No reason an alternative client can't just clear out that flag.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Now that's done, please delete the drafts section, so messages stay in one place?

<comment><USER7> Yes. This please. I so so SO hate the drafts section.

Regularly I have DM conversations with people and might have typed out half a message when I need to respond to another channel/DM. But when I go back to the first conversation... it's gone. Because instead of being at the bottom of my list where I expect to see it (like I do the other 99.99999% of the time)... it's up at the top.

Don't. Move. Around. The. UI.

<comment><USER8> Or, if they want to keep the drafts section... Duplicate the channel, don't move it. That way you get the best of both worlds

<comment><USER7> Or simply provide a preference setting. Sure, if you like it go for it. But I don't, let me turn it off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Something that got much less attention but deserves it (IMO) is that they have accessible themes for people with color-vision deficiencies. There is a theme for people with tritanopia and one for protanopia & deuteranopia.

Having protanopia myself I'm very grateful for any piece of software that takes these issues seriously.

For those on Visual Studio Code: the slack themes are also available there, including the color blind themes.

<comment><USER10> They've had these for a while! I have a coworker with protanopia and we've all started using that theme.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Funny that as Discord releases a light theme, Slack releases a dark theme.

But in seriousness, does Slack really have any value proposition over Discord beyond Screen Hero these days?

I switched my organization over to Discord based on the ability to create public channels for testers/customers to communicate with my team on the server without any role-based overhead (also because my target market is largely the Twitch/gamer crowd - most of whom already have Discord set up).

I understand that there are less integrations baked in, but most are easily worked around with webhooks.

<comment><USER12> I do not trust Discord on data privacy.

It's not just the target market being the gamer crowd, its focus on promoting gaming content is beyond distracting for a work setting.

Take its font-and-center features:

\- The primary page with all the game and stream ads has zero value for productivity.

\- Its voice chat is great but not nearly as valuable as a video meeting integration.

\- I don't need or want to know what application or game you have open right now or what music you're listening to. I just want to know if you're available right now or if not, when you will be.

Integrations, emphasized. Adding a swath of app integrations was a "wow" factor when Slack first came on the scene, and I've had very little trouble introducing Slack at organizations with minimal IT resources because of this. Setting up and maintaining webhooks is "too much" for a lot of people who can otherwise manage a Slack org.

<comment><USER13> I don't see why Slack would be more trustworthy than Discord when it comes to data privacy, when we're talking about a company that failed to disclose a breach for 5 years.

[https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/18/slack-password- breach/](https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/18/slack-password-breach/)

If you care about your data, you have to be able to own it, and neither Slack nor Discord offers that option.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> For Mac Users:

I had to choose View -> Reload (Command R) form the top menu bar to make this option show up for me.

<comment><USER15> Yeah I had to completely stop and restart the Slack app before the new feature showed up

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> RIP IRC, which had the advantage of offering people the opportunity to use any client they like.

<comment><USER17> Yep - I desperately want /ignore back. Lots of annoying bots.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Sad news for custom emoji users. So many look bad now.

In all seriousness though - I don't see why all apps/sites don't develop in a "dark mode" first mindset. With all the studies showing eye strain related health issues correlated to bright screens, you'd think this would be an easy solution to help alleviate the problem.

Imagine writing your name in the sand on a beach by digging out all the area around the text to make it appear.. why project mostly background light with dark content as opposed to projecting the content and letting the dead space remain dark.

<comment><USER19> How is this sad news?

\- Its not a forced change. Don't do anything and emojis are fine.

\- Even if it was forced, is slack responsible for every possible customization? (Hey I like using black text always! Its hard to see black text in dark mode!)

Its an additional feature. It seems like such a weird thing to be sad/complain about.

<comment><USER18> It was mainly intended as a joke but I agree that I didn't make that clear. It's just a minor inconvenience for a massive quality of life improvement

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I wish people still used things like GTK. Every app I install that uses GTK has dark mode enabled by default, and fits my system theme.

</comment><comment><USER21> We wouldn't need to wait for Slack to get around to implementing a dark mode interface if we could just use the protocol with clients of our choosing.

</comment><comment><USER7> Sitting on the web. No such option currently exists.

<comment><USER22> I had the same thing, refreshed and it was there.

<comment><USER7> Multiple hard refreshes later and it did arrive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I use the Hoth theme in Slack and through it was pretty cute that they change the name of that theme to Dagobah in dark mode.

</comment><comment><USER24> Any chance they'll ever improve threaded discussions? Or take cues from competitors like Zulip and add forum-style topics?

One can dream.

</comment><comment><USER25> I have the latest Mac version (4.0.3) and I see no such option.

<comment><USER26> I had to restart slack to get the themes preference page to appear.

<comment><USER25> Thanks. This should really be noted in the blog post.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Hopes dashed. I have wanted a dark mode for a long time but the color they picked is a dark blue gray which I find unpleasant. I would rather keep the neutral white/grey-scaled light theme than that. I can only hope that they will eventually make it customizable like the other elements.

<comment><USER28> Sorry to hear - it's really taken them a long time to do this, but I'm pleased with the results. I've been using Stylish + Slack Dark - have you tried that? [https://userstyles.org/styles/160324/slack-dark- mode](https://userstyles.org/styles/160324/slack-dark-mode)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I wish they fixed the recurring "enable desktop notifications" prompt in the browser as well. It's beyond annoying to use Slack in a browser these days because it, especially if (like myself) you only go in for a few minutes every hour and close the tab afterwards.

</comment><comment><USER30> This is actually a pretty bad implementation. It's very hard to read compared to my IDE dark modes.

Like the font weight is too high or something. I had to change back to Light mode.

I'm all about dark mode but not a fan here. They need to spend some time and make it more readable.

<comment><USER31> I strongly agree. I use dark modes on almost all my other desktop applications where it is available, but after a few hours of using the dark mode in Slack my eyes got tired.

If they allowed customization of the main dark background color this would be remediable, but the only part of the theme that can be changed is the sidebar.

After literally years of promises, this is such a poor implementation that it's shocking. And I say this as someone who actually mostly likes Slack as a product.

<comment><USER30> [https://github.com/LanikSJ/slack-dark-mode](https://github.com/LanikSJ/slack- dark-mode)

That is a much better dark mode for Slack but it's still not good enough. The channel list is still very offensive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Why is this HN front-page worthy?

<comment><USER33> \- Many HN users are programmers or work in other tech jobs.

\- Many HN users use Slack at this job or have interacted with someone who does.

\- Many HN users hate how Slack is an Electron app that consumes too many resources for the simple functions it performs.

\- Many HN users follow app trends, including the fact everything is adding a dark mode lately.

These four reasons are why this would make it to the HN front page.

<comment><USER34> 5th: I've wanted dark mode in slack for a long time and would not have heard about it without this post.

<comment><USER35> Same here. My eyes are so happy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Is dark mode a fashion thing or does it really helps with eye strain? In darker surroundings, I just lower the brightness.

<comment><USER37> I think it's a fashion thing with a thin veneer of eye strain reduction (since, AFAIK, there's little conclusive evidence dark mode matters here)

<comment><USER38> I have HN and a terminal open side by side, and I can tell you HN is more painful to look at, simply because it's like shining flashlight into the eyes compared to a black-background terminal.

<comment><USER39> You should try using dark mode extensions like DarkReader if you aren't already. I have it enabled on most sites and it works almost flawlessly.

[0][https://darkreader.org/](https://darkreader.org/)

<comment><USER40> I want to try it badly but it goes against most fibers of my being to give a 3rd party extension such crazy permissions:

      Access your data for all websites
      Access browser tabs

<comment><USER41> How else would it rewrite the styles for every page?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Wonder how many trees this mode effectively saves. Google.com should have a darkmode soon I hope. :P

<comment><USER43> [http://blackle.com/](http://blackle.com/) is still around, if you're serious.

<comment><USER44> HTTPS is not configured correctly, nor does it have a valid TLS cert, which is from 2010. And they are running Apache 2.2.3. Yikes!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'm more interested in if/when they will fix threads.

<comment><USER46> Threads in slack are horrible. The idea isn't great in itself imo, but the implementation is a terrible experience. Constantly showing "more messages" link at the bottom unless you use the small sidebar.

A couple or groups I am in decided to avoid them entirely

<comment><USER47> I am wanting to try twist.com, but alot of the non-technical folks are still in love with Slack.

I think threading by default and forcing a topic would be better for channels.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Finally fulfilling a ~2013 request that is basically a style sheet. Better late than never I guess

<comment><USER49> Yeah, but they got to gradually develop "Slack Kit" and release a blog post patting themselves on the back for doing so to fulfill a 5 year old feature request. You can't just do that in CSS!

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> What's the deal with dark modes? With glossy laptop screens they're 100% unreadable in good natural light conditions; even with a matte screen, they're pretty bad.

<comment><USER51> > good natural light conditions

Dark modes are for... the dark.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Finally a breakthrough !!!

</comment><comment><USER53> Human eye's signal amplification curve is not linear. [1] You can't convert an existing app to dark mode so much as building a new design for it, or it looks weird. Youtube's Dark mode is an example of this uncanny valley.

Funnily enough, they themselves illustrated the issue with the first image on their post, in how weird the version on the left looks.

Besides - what we need isn't a full dark mode, it's an app that is built for the human eye. Dark mode is as extreme as staring into a white lightbulb all day, which is what the light mode is.

An example of this is Aether (disclosure: it's a project I'm designing for: [https://aether.app](https://aether.app)).

It's designed for the 'dark' mode from scratch, or rather, it's at 40% mode and it's the only UI, so it aims to work well for both day and night. So we don't have to go for the one or the other.

(I'm not sure about posting here since it's a 'Slack competitor' and I don't want to look like advertising, but hey, I guess it's relevant)

[1] Contrast Threshold Curve of Human Vision [https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Contrast-threshold- curve...](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Contrast-threshold-curve-of- human-vision_fig1_253055649)

<comment><USER43> > You can't convert an existing app to dark mode.

How can this possibly be true? Are you trying to say something else, like "just changing colors is not sufficient to create a high quality dark mode"? That is probably why it's a "mode" and not a "theme".

This tool looks nice though. This type of threading is much more appropriate for work conversations, in my experience.

<comment><USER53> Yes, sorry, that was a little hyperbolic, so I edited to correct. I meant sometimes the things that you need to do to make a dark mode is not just changing colours, but also to produce new design work, since not all of the existing design can be converted.

(And thanks — I agree. It saves quite a bit of productivity in our own remote team every day.)</comment></comment></comment>


Obama's site is performing a test on you - <AUTHOR> http://www.breakingcopy.com/obama-ab-testing/comment-page-1 Barack Obama's re-election campaign is using an interesting strategy to get people to sign up for their mailing list. <comment><USER2> Obama's '08 campaign team modus operandi is described in the recent book Little Bets. In short, they A/B test everything.</comment>


Single gene mutation may have helped humans become optimal long-distance runners - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2018-09-gene-mutation-humans-optimal-long-distance.html <comment><USER2> So the gene mutation makes us better runners but more cancer prone? Is this why running helps reduce cancer risk?

</comment><comment><USER3> In other news: Single 1 addition may have helped number 2 become optimal 3 value.</comment>


Ask HN: Is there a way to structure a 5+ year short on crypto? - <AUTHOR> I want to structure contracts to represent: Bitcoin to <$1000 within 5 years. Is anyone making a market to support that kind of bet? <comment><USER2> There are Bitcoin futures [http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin- futures](http://cfe.cboe.com/cfe-products/xbt-cboe-bitcoin-futures) They allow to short BTC, but they don't provide exactly what you need.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yea those products are frustratingly limited. You're basically just rolling the dice on near-term price drivers you can't predict (mostly news).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Short GPU OEMs.</comment>


Alphabet reports first revenue decline in company history - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/30/alphabet-googl-earnings-q2-2020.html <comment><USER2> Misleading clickbait title - Google quarterly revenue has declined multiple times in the past, the last being in 2015.</comment>


Ask YC:  Could you provide a specific account of how you personally come up with novel ideas? - <AUTHOR> So how do you do it?  How do you put your brain in a state of mind that is conducive to creative thinking?
Even if you can't say much about it in general, maybe you could say something about the specific circumstances under which you came up with novel ideas?
I am especially interested to know if you can will yourself to be creative by devoting hours/days entirely for this purpose. And if so, what sort of stimuli are helpful in this regard.
Also, can you be creative alone or do you need to brainstorm with others? <comment><USER2> I'm one of those guys that get a novel idea every minute of the day. I hold a few patents as well. To me ideas are cheap, but that's probably because I find it easy to come up with them. Here's how I do it:

Whenever I see something that doesn't quite work I can't help thinking about why it doesn't work better and how to resolve the problem. This includes how to shorten the lines without using extra personnel in my local supermarket, how YC news recommendation system could be made to work better, and how to do 3D displays. Anything really...

The keys to getting the good ideas are:

1) have lots of them - my ideas are no better that anyone elses, I just have a lot. Statistically a good one will pop up every now and then.

2) When you encounter a problem think through all the possible ways of resolving it. Don't mind if some of them are outrageous, just be sure to discard them when you have checked that they don't work. A friend and mine and I once actually thought that according to the laws of physics a certain combination of magnets and superconductors should make a perpetual motion machine. We set up an experiment, and of course it didn't work. We tried it and discarded it, and we weren't afraid of trying something crazy.

3) Know about different disciplines, and have broad knowledge. Innovation often comes from crossbreeding different disciplines. If you put a physicist and a web designer in a room you will get more innovation than if you put two physicists in a room.

Just my two cents, hope it's useful.

<comment><USER3> Are you me? That's almost exactly what I would have written. I have a yellow notebook in which I write down ideas as they come to me. It contains everything from a way to dry the shower curtain to prevent mold, through a way to adjust car mirrors by eye tracking to various web site ideas.

Essentially, whenever I see something I end up wondering how to improve it, or why it hasn't been improved in the way I think would work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "Perspective is worth 80 points of IQ" - Alan Kay

Almost everybody here is focussed on a single, simple consumer niche: rich white people who shop online.

Because, you say, that's where the money is. Well... no.

That's where 2% of the money is. Maybe 5%. Out there, in the big wide world, there are tens of thousands of other lifestyle niches, other places to see. Take a look at that Nokia guy's blog,

<http://www.janchipchase.com/>

Nokia pays him to wander around the world learning about people and how they use things including but not limited to cell phones.

The whole B2B boom, just before the .com bust was a moment of insight... "wow, people outside of the home shopping by internet niche can use the internet to buy things."

So. Ideas.

First thing, get the hell out of San Francisco. Stay away from TechCrunch. Go to Iowa or Brazil. Spend two weeks walking or bicycling around. Call it a vacation. If you take a computer, don't look at your usual sites, turn off your RSS feeds, don't take work email. Put yourself in a new state of mind and then, if money is the goal, ask yourself "what would these people like their computers to do?"

But the space of "software for technohip 20somethings" is heavily swamped right now. It's a saturated, clogged, grossly overfilled demographic.

You want a freebie? An integrated software/hardware/services combo for old people's homes. Does email to help residents talk to their families, prints out pictures when they are sent automatically so people can take them back to their rooms, reminds people of calendar obligations like their grandchildren's birthdays. Maybe even supports some kind of mediated e-commerce which has a credit card account which can only be spent at a known-good list of a couple of hundred stores, so that they can't get phished.

Yes, it would take some selling, but the improvement in quality of life for the residents, and for their families is not insignificant, and business is booming for old people's homes.

Get out of your demographic. That's where the money is.

</comment><comment><USER5> I have had people come to me with seemingly complex problems requiring what they thought would be complex solutions. Oddly, the elegant solution was often a gross simplification of the complex problem. Often because I just didn't understand the complexity.

Example 1. A shipper can only fit 1200 boxes in a 40 foot trailer. The material is so light, they can never make weight. The boxes must be delivered to depots throughout the United States with no more than a 3 day window either way. What box should go on which truck? The customer thought they needed sophisticated algorithms to provide an optimal solution. The simple solution: a screen where an educated user can drag boxes (or groups of boxes) to trailers and can drag trailers to destinations. The computer did very little, but the difficult business problem turned into a "game" that employees fought each other to "play".

Example 2: A cloth manufacturer wanted a linear algebra solution to determine what products to mount on their mills and where to set the knives. The simple solution: A screen with all customer orders and key data about each order (size, weight, width). Everything on the screen was sortable and switchable. Again, an intelligent user could "play a game" to schedule the mills almost as well as any automated algorithm.

Example 3: A distributor wanted to know what to buy, when to buy it, and what to put on sale to move slow inventory. He wanted an expensive ERP program. The simple solution: A screen with all supplies and demands that can be mixed, matched, sorted, and selected in many different ways. Again, an intelligent user can "play" with his data and then confidently make decisions.

The "real" bonus of all these "simple" solutions? The person drove the decision and felt in control of the situation. No more blaming the computer for the results.

My suggestion: Slow down. Even stop. Ask, "How are we making this too complicated? What simple little thing could I do to get just part of the way there?" You may surprise yourself and find that the simple little idea IS the solution.

<comment><USER6> Excellent examples.

One lesson I would draw from this: Stop pretending that computers can think -- which they can't -- and start thinking of ways that a computer can help a human do everything _but_ the thinking. Think _cyborg_ , not _robot_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'd say it's very hard to make a good product if it doesn't solve a problem you are personally facing.

For example, we wanted to do a usability test, but it's quite a hassle to find enough people to do it. I thought how more and more laptops had integrated cameras. So I came up with the idea of a service that lets me pay $5 to random people on the Internet in exchange of recording their screens + their faces and voice while they use our site. It shouldn't be too hard to use the camera to do eyetracking, either.

If I wasn't building a public-facing website and had not done in-person usability tests, I wouldn't have thought of this.

<comment><USER8> We had an idea like this too. Almost applied to yc with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I agree with Parker on the pain point and I agree with mixmax on the constant flow of ideas. Keep track of them. Keep lists. Revisit the lists. Prune the lists. I usually hit instantdomainsearch.com to see if anyone's registered an obvious name for the concept, reg it if it hasn't been, explore the competition if it has.

Two thoughts:

1) Go to Amazon. It's obviously a huge center of commerce. Find an active forum. Make it easier for someone (or a group) to do something they're talking about doing there, complaining about, etc. Advertise it there in the forums. That's how I launched RefreshThing.

2) Observe existing behavior in others you can relate to. Improve upon it, make it simpler, show them how it should be done online. Double points if that behavior is something they're accustomed to doing offline and are crawling online where you can show them how to run.

Or try picking an idea you have right now, developing it (a little or a lot) and then solving the problem you don't know it has until you're at a stage where you can see that about it.

</comment><comment><USER10> I was standing on the edge of my toilet hanging a clock, the porcelin was wet, I slipped, hit my head on the edge of the sink, and when I came to I had a relvalation, a vision, a picture in my head.

Seriously though... I think best in the bath or while asleep or while driving.

<comment><USER9> +1 for inventing the flux capacitor

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I dont' think that ideas are manufactured. They sort of "pop out" when the right kinds of pressure are applied from the right directions. You seem to be searching for some sort of methodology for generating good ideas. I personally think procedure is detrimental to creativity. Procedure begets sameness. What you need to have new ideas are novel sensations.

And stop trying so hard. Clear your head. Take a different route home. Go sit on a park bench for a couple of hours and try not to think about computers. Go out with a new circle of people and take an interest in them. Tune to a radio or TV station that you would normally skip over.

When you get the seed of a new idea, it will usually be something nebulous. Don't write down. Hold it in your head and let it churn around for a while until you have something more concrete. Then talk to other people about it.

</comment><comment><USER12> I think it's all about understanding a) what creates human pain, b) how much pain it creates, and c) how difficult it is to ease that pain.

A lot of people have problems understanding what humans would actually find useful. If they've identified the pain-point, they don't spend enough time investigating how deep the pain goes. The last point is a reflection of either being a hacker or being comfortable with understanding how technology gets built -- if you don't know how to solve the pain or how difficult solving the pain is, you're in big trouble.

I think very few people have the ability to do all three consistently.

Generally, I don't think it's something you're born with, but if you are an 'ideas' person, you can refine your personal heuristics to identify good ideas better over time.

</comment><comment><USER13> For me, it's simply something that's learned and cultivated. As far as I can tell, my creativity comes from a sense of curiosity in the world around me, a mental flexibility to entertain odd possibilities, and a broad scope of knowledge.

This sort of question is asked of cartoonists a lot, and usually, they'll make up some sort of fanciful answer, like "I like to drink coffee with cocoa butter". In reality the very best ones have cultivated a sense of curiosity about edge case situations. They make it a habit to notice odd things, and things that don't quite make sense when you think about it. If you read Bill Watterson's (Calvin and Hobbes) Tenth Anniversary Edition, he talks about this topic, and his answer is that he mainly just sit there and lets his mind wander in front of a blank piece of paper--which to others might look remarkably like goofing off. Hackers in general are the same way, but they get curious about systems and how things work instead.

A mental flexibility to entertain possibility helps as well. Often times we're boxed in by our experience, and what we know, as hard as we try to break out of it. When radio was invented, it was asked why you'd want to say stuff to no one in particular. And when the TV came out, the inventor of the radio dismissed it. Here, I think it helps to know how to daydream and let your mind wander. Or when you approach a problem outside your field think of how to solve it using something outside of your expertise. The only person I've ever read about to overcome it was Richard Feynman. Apparently, he had the ability to start from basics from any problem and work his way from the bottom up, aware of his assumptions.

Lastly, what's called creative is often just taking two old things that don't usually go together, and getting them to play well with each other. When you know about lots of things and have a broad scope, you start to see how things are interconnected. In school, I liked math, but other kids complained about how they'll never use it. It wasn't until after college that I started to see that the segmentations of subjects is done so that students don't get confused and have discrete chucks of info to learn. In reality, every academic subject is interconnected somehow, and when you have the broadness of scope with deepness in some of them, you'll be able to make connections between things that are related, but not usually thought of as being so. If you can make those connections, people will usually dub you as being creative, when you don't think it's as big of a deal yourself.

Being creative is a habit you get into.

</comment><comment><USER14> Written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb: "Glander best describes the notion of lifting all inhibitions to "tinker intellectually in an undirected stochastic process aiming at capturing some idea that will enrich your corpus". "Researching" or "thinking" smack of a top-down activity."

More on Glander by Taleb: "It is an irony that the academy does not have a word for the process by which discovery works best—but slang does. I was trying to describe in a letter what I am currently doing: French would not let me. But argot lends itself very well... I am involved in an activity called "Glander", more precisely "glandouiller". It means "to idle", though not "to be in a state of idleness" (it is an active verb). Gandouiller denotes enjoyment. The formal French word is "ne rien faire" (to do nothing), which misses on the active part —so do words that have a languishing connotation. Glander is what children without soccer moms do when they are out of school. It resembles flâner which has this perambulation part; though Glander does not have any strings attached. The Italians have farniente but it is really doing nothing. Even the Arabs do not have a verb for Glander: the construction takaslana from the Semitic root ksl denotes laziness (other words imply some inertia)."

Newton was a "glandeur"; In Dijksterhuis 2004:

George Spencer Brown has famously said about Sir Isaac Newton that "to arrive at the simplest truth, as Newton knew and practiced, requires years of contemplation. Not activity. Not reasoning. Not calculating. Not busy behavior of any kind. Not reading. Not talking. Not making an effort. Not thinking. Simply bearing in mind what it is that one needs to know."

I Glander whenever I am bored and I come up with formulate groundbreaking ideas. Some of them are even viable for monetization!

</comment><comment><USER15> The best ideas come to me when I am stoned. I have a set of huge white boards, I smoke a little then doodle. 95% is not worth much the next day, but some of the ways my mind drifts and connects is awesome.

<comment><USER16> alternatively, there are a few other healthier ways to get into a high alpha state. I find that a shower, or driving around is good. Also a nap. Sleep deprivation leads me to full imagine some of my best graphic designs. They just pop into my head fully formed as I lay in bed half crazy cause I haven't slept. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Also, and this is absolutely important, keep a small notepad and pen(cil) nearby, and write down your ideas the instant they come. You'd be surprised how many great ideas we have and forget. Remember to note the date, and how you came up with the idea. If you're without writing tools, set a reminder in your phone to a time when you know you'll be home, but it is imperative you record it.

Don't be afraid if ideas come out of sequence. I'm getting into freelance graphic design, and one evening I just started writing the word 'concept' in all sorts of ways, using 'k' instead of 'c', and then drew a capital 'T' with the letters 'concep' under it. Then I thought: let's try another letter. So I drew a capital 'S', but with a straight vertical line and 2 horizontal lines instead of curves, and had 'con' down the left side and 'ept' down the right. It looked good, but I wanted to explore some more. So I tried the letter 'C', and wrote 'oncept' inside it following the shape of the 'C'. That was the first breakthrough: it looked like half of a clock. So I draw a full clock, and what do you know, the letters in 'concept correspond perfectly to the number positions on a clock face! So 12 o'clock is a 'C', 11 and 1 o'clock are 'O' etc. So I found myself with a clock with the word 'concept' on it twice... two concepts. A little more brainstorming gave me the final name "Twin- Concept." This is what I meant by ideas out of sequence: normally, you'd come up with the company name and then design the logo, but I was determined to use that logo, and so I named the company after the logo! The hour marks are set in green, to give it that 'glow in the dark look.' Against a black background, it's sexy.

Oh, and did I mention that you should write down ideas as soon as they come?

</comment><comment><USER18> The extremely embarrassing truth is that I've gotten many of my AI ideas while trying to write science fiction and fantasy stories.

\- Eliezer Yudkowsky

</comment><comment><USER16> The best way I have found is this: Think about the most normal, expected solution to a problem would be, and then try to imagine the opposite. This is really good for getting juices flowing and starting things up. in reality you usually use 80% of the "normal" solution and make a couple nuances that are opposite of what people might normally think of.

</comment><comment><USER19> Here are 3 ways I've identified highly profitable ideas:

a) Having a problem that needs solving. It's OK if it's a focused need, so long as you're not addressing a market which is _too_ small. The world of people who research online is big enough. The world of Web 2.0 developers is not.

b) Careful listening to user feedback. Often users of one of my products have given me an inkling of the need for another. This will happen if (1) the original product works well, (2) the new product appeals to a similar audience, (3) you make it easy for people to give you feedback, and read it religiously and with empathy.

c) Being in-the-know about breaking trends. Make sure you regularly read (or at least skim) some high quality international publications. I read The Economist cover-to-cover every week, along with BusinessWeek. Worth every minute.

For me, each of these methods has been the catalyst for creating at least one successful online business.

</comment><comment><USER20> Consider practicing a discipline where you write down one new idea every day. Most of these ideas will suck, but tracking them over time might show you (1) some deeper ideas and (2) that even if 95% of your ideas suck, that 5% is still enough to work with.

I'd worry about "devoting" hours/days to idea generation. You can make more progress by drafting, shipping, and refining an idea than by sitting alone generating a lot of ideas without implementation. Take your best idea and figure out the fastest way to make it into something people can use. Pay attention and you'll learn a ton.

</comment><comment><USER21> This book has some ideas about a framework for looking at existing things in a new light in the hopes of generating new ideas:

[http://www.squeezedbooks.com/book/show/5/lateral- marketing-n...](http://www.squeezedbooks.com/book/show/5/lateral-marketing- new-techniques-for-finding-breakthrough-ideas)

It's not a bad technique if you're actively trying to generate ideas.

</comment><comment><USER22> Useful novelty, that I would act on?

I've been immersed in my specialty for 15 years.

As it happens, this number of years is pretty much the norm for the highly creative (10 years is the lower bound). For details, see:

[http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Handbook-Expertise-Expert- Pe...](http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Handbook-Expertise-Expert- Performance/dp/0521600812)

</comment><comment><USER23> You might find this book useful: "A Technique for Producing Ideas", by James Young. Exceedingly short, simple, meant for advertising, but helpful for any industry.

[http://www.amazon.com/Technique-Producing-Advertising- Classi...](http://www.amazon.com/Technique-Producing-Advertising-Classics- Library/dp/0071410945/)

</comment><comment><USER24> Most of the comments here are about very linear thought processes like: problem->simplification->solution.

Those are great, and valuable but I think the most fun ideas are the ones that come from having a head full of random shit floating around and colliding. The ones that stick together well are the winners. :D

</comment><comment><USER25> If you don't have any (or many) ideas, you need to lower your threshold for what you consider a good idea.

And when you see something that annoys you, think about how to solve it.

Talk about your ideas with friends. Get feedback. Tweak. Rinse and repeat.

</comment><comment><USER26> For me ideas come through conversations, reading tech news and working on one idea that turns into another. Also, as a songwriter where songs just pop into my head, ideas do to. Odd as that may sound.

<comment><USER27> Do you feel that you can just "think different" and new thoughts come to you?

<comment><USER28> Before I started my first startup, I used to see all sorts of problems and never really think that they could be applied to something. But after I started something based on what a friend of mine came up with, I've been able to see so many problems that I've had before, and come up with ideas on how to solve them. The only difference was that I had gone through the process to understand a fundamental problem that existed and focused on how to solve that problem.

What I'm trying to say here is that the difference in thought is really thinking if anything that you are doing could be done differently or better.

I would argue that my thought processes pre-startup and post-startup are very different, and also that I've been able to have new ideas because of it.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, I've noticed something similar in myself. Once I've actually seen a difficult problem through on my own initiative, I can see my crazy ideas are actually insightful. I just need to develop that confidence, which is hard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I find it important to just take some time off for yourself every once in a while and let your mind wander.

Based on what your experiences, what you've read, and what you've done something should pop into your head!

</comment><comment><USER30> Edgecraft.

Seth Godin describes the process in Free Prize Inside.

([http://decentmarketing.typepad.com/weblog/2004/05/on_the_edg...](http://decentmarketing.typepad.com/weblog/2004/05/on_the_edge_wit.html))

</comment><comment><USER31> My ideas tend to form like trees: I have loads of ideas (seeds) that I will plant in my head. Over time, and through research and reading (what's happening around me and on the web; what are the latest technologies; where are things heading; how can I help solve these problems; etc.), one of the seeds will start to develop into a tree. At this point I look up to the top of the tree and try to see how my idea will change the world once its has fully grown. Once I have an idea about that, I then work backwards to try and figure out what parts (branches) are needed to reach the end goal. Some of the branches will also need some development before they are fully formed branches. Sometimes the branches develop so much that they actually create there own seeds, which fall off and grow into new trees; the new trees are related to the original one, but by developing them into their own fully formed idea, allows them to have a wider/greater impact than they would if they were still attached to the original. This process reiterates itself and some of the ideas refine themselves. This is where it can start to get messy, so good organisation is required, e.g. mind-maps and the like.

Most of my ideas develop inside my head when I am not in front of the computer and when I am not really concentrating on anything, which is usually when I am in the shower. I let them ponder in my mind, perhaps sleep on them, and then, all of sudden, I will have the urge to frantically mind-map them out and research them.

With regards to brainstorming, I usually do this after I have envisaged the top of the tree. I usually go to my colleagues and/or advisor's and bounce the ideas off them. We usually then "discuss" how crazy the idea is, what would make it feasible, what attitudes and habits would need to change in order to make them work, etc., which helps me identify what the branches need to look like on the way up to the top of the tree.

So as an example, one of the things I am working on is a way to speed up research - that was the first seed, which was born out of my own frustrations with the status quo. If I speed up research, how will it impact the rest of the world and how will the world work if I pull it off? - which is the top of the tree. Imagining how the world would work if my idea reached fruition, allows me to identify all of the other things that are also required for it to work (the branches). For example, I think a new document format is required to speed up research, and so I have started to develop this as a new branch, which itself is almost at the point of forming a seed, falling off and becoming a tree in its own right.

I have no idea if any of that jibba-jabba made any sense, but it's how I work.

</comment><comment><USER27> It helps me to understand the principles something is derived from. Then, I know the path and I can deviate from it.

<comment><USER27> Also, my biggest hangup is not a lack of creativity but the courage to see my creative ideas through, despite others not getting it. I know there are people like mixmax who can just throw together a bar in Ibiza and be wildly successful, but I don't know why I can't do stuff like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Pure luck:

<http://brl.codesimply.net/brl_7.html#SEC74>

</comment><comment><USER33> something, write, take photos, notice other people, their work, their world, ...). Have a broad understanding about different areas of knowledge. Think about these different areas and how they could be combined together.

</comment><comment><USER34> I pray to pagan gods.

I have this wall chart of all sorts of religions, and I move a game piece around it like a boardgame. Then whoever I'm on that day, I pray, like, "O great Yegbabo, deliver unto me a vision of a start-up idea." Then I imbibe the appropriate ceremonial substance, such as hashish, peyote, coca leaves, licking a toad, LSD -- it depends on the culture.

Anyway that's how McCarthy "invented" Lisp (he was at Esalen on vacation with Timothy Leary).</comment>


History Shows What Will Happen Next: Brexit, Trump, Other Nationalist Movements - <AUTHOR> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tobias-stone/history-tells-us-what-will-brexit-trump_b_11179774.html <comment><USER2> >But at the time people don't realize they're embarking on a route that will lead to a destruction period. They think they're right, they're cheered on by jeering angry mobs, their critics are mocked.

It's difficult not to notice this mentality when you see people at Trump rallies wearing shits advocating the hanging of Journalists.

>With a fractured EU, and weakened NATO, Putin, facing an ongoing economic and social crisis in Russia, needs another foreign distraction around which to rally his people. He funds far right anti-EU activists in Latvia, who then create a reason for an uprising of the Russian Latvians in the East of the country (the EU border with Russia). Russia sends "peace keeping forces" and "aid lorries" into Latvia, as it did in Georgia, and in Ukraine. He cedes Eastern Latvia as he did Eastern Ukraine (Crimea has the same population as Latvia, by the way).

I found it interesting that Estonian Prime Minister Taavi Roivas lost a parliamentary vote of no confidence. It seems that a Pro Russian Party has been able to make some inroads and is trying to take the nation towards Russia.

This whole election feels like a chapter out of a KGB playbook. Americans are easy to fall for propaganda. They don't have a great knowledge of history and few realize or care how important Foreign Policy is. Trump may not start the next massive war but there is a good chance his warm embrace of Putin will set the stage for world conflict and in time cost America millions of lives.</comment>


Python StatsD Server - <AUTHOR> http://www.monkinetic.com/2011/02/python-statsd-server.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Getting a server implementation from Joshua Frederick was a nice surprise this weekend (esp. with me feeling sick). Thanks Joshua!</comment>


Lollapalooza Asks Developers To Create the Ultimate Festival App [VIDEOS] - <AUTHOR> http://mashable.com/2011/06/30/hacklolla/

<comment><USER2> Great. They didn't want to actually PAY someone for a good app so they "crowd- source" it and get 19 shitty apps.</comment>


Ask HN: Ubuntu phone- has anyone used it yet? - <AUTHOR>

The Ubuntu phone has been debuting around the world in the past month, yet strangely there's been very few reviews of the actual device and software. Has anyone on HN tried it yet? How is it? <comment> vezzy-fnord Just buy an LG Nexus 4 and flash Ubuntu Touch from the stable channel on top of it. It's the reference target and the hardware specifications are virtually the same as the BQ and Meizu phones out now, only several times cheaper.

</comment><comment><USER2> I tried it for some time and its like and amazon fire phone as they have no app store (google) it is really very difficult its a smart phone but not a smart phone so !! its not a great experience i would say personally</comment>


Solarcoaster: The Promise and Pitfalls of Rooftop Solar Jobs - <AUTHOR> http://capitalandmain.com/solarcoaster-the-promise-and-pitfalls-of-rooftop-solar-jobs-0413 <comment><USER2> _The company did not provide its workers access to bathrooms during worktime, requiring them to urinate in bottles or buckets while on the job, according to the lawsuit._

 _that SolarCity failed to compensate installers for travel between jobs_

 _Zazueta also alleges he was fired by SolarCity after he refused to perform electrical work under conditions he deemed unsafe. His charge echoes Estrada's claim that, when he worked out of the San Diego warehouse, certified electricians "would get fired if they asked too many questions."_

Do you want a union, because this is exactly how you get a union.

Frankly, I get the whole profit motive, but if your morals are so poor that you create a company with standards that would not be a fit place to bring your children up through the ranks, then you should be sued into oblivion or forced to fix it via a union.

<comment><USER3> No access to restrooms is the norm with any short-term on-site construction work. Industrial products exist (in the form of bottles and buckets) to serve the need.

If a porta-potty is needed on-site, it's the customer who ultimately pays the cost, and it's easy to find the expense hard to justify, even on multi-day projects.

<comment><USER4> Yeah it's real hard to justify. Those guys up on the roof have to pee, shocking right?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Personal Anecdote - I just had solar installed on my roof by SolarCity. I found them to be very professional to work with, they pushed the process forward very rapidly (days from call to initial survey, another week to actual install (then a week delay due to rain), another week to completed inspections and green light to turn the system on). Everyone seemed to be enthusiastic about their jobs and about renewable energy. My rep called me frequently to check in and make sure everything was to my liking, and was very responsive to calls and emails.

The installers all seemed competent, and the job was completed in half a day (19 panels). One asked if he could use my bathroom, which was fine. The first install attempt had to be rescheduled due to weather, and it was the install team's call to postpone. I didn't see any attempt to pressure them to do work they weren't comfortable with.

Safety seemed to be a big concern for everyone from the surveyor to the installers. Everyone had a phone and photo-documented every step, every change, even the fact that they had installed their safety equipment. Probably CYA in most cases, but I also appreciate the attention to detail.

Certainly a limited view of the company and it's workers. As a customer so far I've had a good experience.

<comment><USER6> Good luck, see my other comments in this thread. In my experience, SolarCity will be very helpful and supportive when first working with you. Once locked in and/or they have your money, they will stop caring.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Good read. I contacted Solar City about going solar at home and after their hour quote pitch thing they did I told them no as they were too expensive. I now get called at least twice a week to see if I would be willing to talk to them again about the possibility of going solar. This was 6 months ago now.

<comment><USER6> I inherited a SolarCity lease after buying our house. It's been a six month nightmare of my account and the previous owner's account mixed together in their system. They keep trying to charge me for the previous owner's other solar system, and I'm unable to pay my bill because the statements are always incorrect and I have no idea what I actually owe them.

This has been going on since last November. SolarCity is horrible.

<comment><USER6> For some reason I cannot edit my own comment. I finally got a response from SolarCity on this matter just today. They say my account will be fixed in "winter 2017". I bought the house in winter 2016, so they are basically saying it will take them one year to fix the problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> My personal experience as a potential customer of the solar industry has been pretty weird so far.

I'm at the contracting stage of getting solar. I used Yelp to narrow down our options to three different companies. I contacted each, gave my information, and ... then nothing. Never heard back from _any_ of them. So I tried calling each again.

The first of them got back to me and has been the most helpful so far. It's a small local company. They use some kind of solar quoting software that pulls info out of Google Earth/Google Maps. It maps out your roof and everything. So this company was able to send me a quote with prospective panel placement, estimated generation by month, and estimated electric bill pre and post solar. Really cool!

When I got ahold of the second company I ran down my list of requests for the solar system. They balked at my request for Tesla PowerWall batteries. The rep went on a 2 minute sales pitch for some other brand and said "Tesla batteries won't power your home"...I ... I didn't know what to say that. I ignored the ignorance and requested a quote anyway. It's now 3 days past when they said the quote would come (why would it take so long for an estimated quote anyway!?) and I haven't heard a peep.

The third company apologized for not getting back to me and said they'd tell their solar rep to get back to me ASAP. Still nothing.

All three companies were very highly rated on Yelp (and all with at least 40 reviews). And yet all I have to show for my requests so far is ... 1 quote.

SolarCity may suck, but their competition doesn't seem to want business anyway.

</comment><comment><USER9> We can thank Sullivan Solar's PR budget for this article.

</comment><comment><USER10> This post seems wayyyy too long for someone's blog. The author probably got paid per word or something.

<comment><USER11> It's designed to be published in an actual magazine - you know, on paper. I figure it's sized to fill four pages including the pictures.</comment></comment>


Bose headphones spy on listeners - <AUTHOR> https://www.yahoo.com/tech/bose-headphones-spy-listeners-lawsuit-174749975--finance.html <comment><USER2> Do things that connect to internet and transmit data not have to specify what all they send? I get confused with using apps on my phone as well. Most apps seems to want a lot of information like "Contact list" for a calculator app?

I feel the need to learn basic wireless networking enough to know what type of traffic is in a network.

</comment><comment><USER3> Previously: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145)</comment>


Top 15 Python Libraries for Data Science in 2017 - <AUTHOR> https://activewizards.com/blog/top-15-libraries-for-data-science-in-python/ <comment><USER2> I will also add HyperOpt for model tuning [https://github.com/hyperopt/hyperopt](https://github.com/hyperopt/hyperopt)</comment>