'I'm Broke and Mostly Friendless, and I've Wasted My Whole Life' - <AUTHOR> https://www.thecut.com/2018/11/im-broke-and-friendless-and-ive-wasted-my-whole-life.html <comment><USER7> This probably won't be popular, but what the hell.

I feel like, if you strip away the outward trappings and dogma, this is what religion is good for. Not in a "believe in Jesus" or "trust in God" kind of way, but in a "how to orient your life" kind of way. Which is to say, the actually useful portion of religion generally teaches that your best life is probably not focused on you. It isn't about finding yourself, or being true to yourself, or really thinking about yourself at all. It's in being of benefit to the human beings around you. And in serving those around you, you become something that is worth being.

It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, there are poor people around you. There are parentless children, drug addicts, parks that need cleaning, animal shelters that need dog walkers. You can always do something meaningful with your life. Try that, and see what kind of relationships you make. Look at and actually see a homeless person. See how that makes you feel. See if your worrying about your own future maybe drops away, or gets morphed into something you can do something with. See what kinds of other people you run into that way. Focus on, if not bringing joy to other people, then at least making their lives better. See if that doesn't - as a pure byproduct - <USER2> your own self-worth. Or maybe just make you less focused on it.

<comment><USER8> I think we in the west ended up replacing religion with, not an absence of it, but with a religion of the Self — where you are the god, or the only one that matters anyway.

That obviously doesn't mean a sincere belief in one's own omniscience, more that the the aura of 'importance' bestowed upon things naturally emanate from the centre of the Universe, which is you.

Mind that humans are already pretty much hardwired to do this. Removing external factors of pressure and adding validation in the form of the mass market gospel of 'find yourself' just made this a lot more visible.

Funny enough, the people who end up going down to the deep end of this road of finding yourself often find that _there is nothing to find_ , since all your life, you've spent it looking for yourself and you never added anything to it. It's an empty box. You're the pot at the end of the rainbow that you never thought you needed to put gold into.

From there, people usually split to a few branches. The more transcendentalist amongst us call it the Buddha, the folks with a more philosophical bent call it existential nausea.

The more practical, most of us, go 'oh.' and they move on with their lives. Which is probably the most healthy way, anyway.

<comment><USER9> The West replaced God not with the self, but with shopping.

<comment><USER10> That and "Science." "Scientists" (catch-all term nobody seems to have a problem using with increasing frequency) are the new priest class.

<comment><USER11> There's definitely something to this. We HN readers see the occasional article about the crisis of reproducibility in science, which leads to some thoughtful discussion about the trustworthiness of the phrase "studies have shown," especially when it conflicts with one's own common sense.

Sadly, this reflection is quickly forgotten.

<comment><USER12> I think that the overwhelming evidence of reality of modern existence - <USER3> fact that we don't live neolithic lives with neolithic lifespans - <USER4> sufficient proof that science has been overwhelmingly constructive and reflective of how the universe works.

Yes, there are issues, the incentivisation around publication etc makes it easy to game the system. However, to extrapolate this to a blanket attitude of distrusting science, "especially when it conflicts with one's own common sense", is incredibly dangerous because it's partly what has made large numbers of us so susceptible to overt manipulation.

"Common sense" is no such thing, and much of proven science could be construed as contradicting common sense. The light-speed limit, quantum spookiness, spacetime curvature, biological evolution - all were once considered contrary to "common sense" \- mainly because "common sense" is ultimately derived from the extremely narrow and limited range of human experiences.

<comment><USER10> A post showed up on my twitter timeline the other day saying something to the effect of, "hey, these guys just landed a thing on a tiny thing in space, so hey, maybe listen to them about climate change, you idiots," completely devoid of sarcasm. A friend of mine had retweeted it. This is how many, if not most, people think these days; instead of looking to people wearing vestments and robes for guidance, they look to people they've never met who they assume probably wear white lab coats while "doing" their "science"—which naturally encompasses all scientific fields because all "scientists" are of course good at doing ALL the "science." (Sure, if you press them, they'll admit that there's different fields of science and not all "scientists" literally know it all... but that doesn't stop that from being the mental shortcut they make whenever they read a headline about whatever "Science" is saying today.) Instead of looking to Scripture, they look to headlines declaring "science" having been "settled" on the matter. We've moved away from religion as a people, yet all it seems to have done is instilled a false sense of rationality in everyone.

It's not about trusting or distrusting "science," it's about trusting or distrusting people who put too much trust into "science," on the principle of it being "science" that "scientists" have determined is truth. I'm not saying let's all go full Amish (or Kaczynski) and live off the land, I write code for a living. I'm just saying that it's easy to fall into the "religion is an old and outdated concept, only idiots and traditionalist fools would believe in such a thing, yet putting complete faith in anything said by anyone who calls themselves a 'scientist' that gets sufficient attention, that's completely totally different, Because Science" trap.

<comment><USER13> Belief in science is nothing like belief in religion. The former, ultimately, is a belief, based on evidence, in the scientific method (empirically acquiring knowledge).

So yes, I would argue that even if someone doesn't understand all the scientific principles behind climate change, they can still reasonably trust "science" and "scientists", since that work is built on top of empirically- backed, peer-evaluated research. In fact, this is necessary since the expertise required to have a critical opinion of the vast majority of scientific research is well beyond us.

<comment><USER10> "Science" and religion are both equally fallible because both are interpreted, disseminated, and perpetuated by man, which as we all know is about the most fallible thing there is. It's obvious and demonstrable that various religious institutions have had varying levels of corruption over the years as their power has waxed and waned based upon how much faith the people have in them. Why is it such a stretch to see that in this modern era where religion has been pretty much been given up on in favor of a more or less blind belief in whatever headlines tell us "scientists" now say, that once again, power and political motivations corrupt once-pure institutions?

Imagine trying to convince someone of incredible religious conviction that their earthly Church demonstrably has repeatedly fallen victim to corruption over the years, only to have her respond to you with, "but that can't be; the Word of God is unquestionably infallible!" There shouldn't be any problem in holding both of those ideas ("the Word of God (Bible) is literally Gospel and infallibly true" and "absolute power corrupts man") in your head at the same time (if anything, the former explicitly reinforces the latter!), and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Catholic today that won't admit that their earthly Church hasn't gone through periods of incredible corruption and downright evil.

Nobody's going to argue the validity of the scientific method, but when you look at the innate nature of man (demonstrated time and again over the course of all recorded history), it's easy to believe that modern "science" is just as corrupt as any other institution man has made at any point in time that rose to power in the minds of the people, i.e. "very"

<comment><USER13> Let's put it this way, do you feel a monarchy is as equally corruptible as a democracy?

Both are institutions constructed by greedy, corrupt, stupid, fallible human beings. It's just that the latter has built in several mechanisms to address this. Like science.

So over a long period of time, democracies have proven to be less corrupt then monarchies, and like-wise, science has proven to be less wrong then religion.

<comment><USER10> Define "democracy." Purely democratic systems are absolutely fallible; mob rule is a thing man is prone to falling prey to in such systems. This is why basically nobody uses straight-up direct democracy today, especially in the age of everyone having read/write access to a global information network in their pockets at all times.

But even putting that aside, and accepting for sake of the argument that the political system in use in countries such as the United States is a "democracy" ...still, yes. Did political corruption magically disappear overnight when we stopped being ruled by monarchs? Were all monarchies corrupt to begin with?

"Democracy is to monarchy as science is to religion" is an incredibly muddled comparison that does not make much sense when you break it down. Modern Christianity would not be where it is today without Protestantism questioning core fundamental beliefs _and_ then-current leadership. When does what is accepted as "Science" get to have its version of Protestantism, questioning not just the dogma of "settled science" (the most hilarious oxymoron of all time), but those who spread it to the masses as well?

Why is it that Christians, even Catholics have no problem admitting to the fallibility of what they consider to be their holiest of institutions, yet atheists seem to believe that "science" is inherently always impossible to be anything but utterly pure use of the scientific method conducted with nothing but the utmost honesty, at every level?

The motivations of man are not always pure, especially when in positions of power and/or authority. Even if you want to disregard religion entirely, at least take lessons from the history it has given us.

<comment><USER12> You keep raising the straw man of "settled science" \- who here, or in fact in the scientific community, believes this let alone proclaims it? Even in broader (non-scientifically literate) society, there are few people (in my experience) that believe science knows everything already.

Science had its "protestant" moment - it was called the Enlightenment, and it result from questioning the dogma of settled knowledge as promulgated by religions through the infallibility of scripture.

<comment><USER10> I'm not going to list politically-charged examples because that's highly unlikely to lead to productive discussion and everyone here knows it.

I'm not knowledgeable about philosophy or metaphysics but is there even anything approaching consensus on whether or not there even is a "knowledge ceiling" that an individual or even society could ever achieve? (If so, I'd love to know how anyone came to that conclusion lol)

>Science had its "protestant" moment - it was called the Enlightenment, and it result from questioning the dogma of settled knowledge as promulgated by religions through the infallibility of scripture.

You seem to have misunderstood the analogy I was making. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, yet view Protestantism as having been a positive thing for Christianity as a whole, including Roman Catholicism. When is dogmatic belief in whatever passes for "science" these days going to be scrutinized? Systemic corruption of any sufficiently powerful institution of man is inevitable, and just because the scientific method is about as pure of a means of reasoning about the world around us as we can come up with and has led to profound advancements in technology and our understanding of our world... doesn't mean that everyone's just going to ignore the fact that using the now-widespread dogmatic belief in its infallibility is a pretty powerful means of achieving external political and personal goals unrelated to the pursuit of truth. It's naive to think otherwise.

<comment><USER12> You keep bringing in disparate arguments as if they are part of the same thing - infallibility, knowledge ceiling, dogmatism - and also throwing in the odd barb - "whatever passes for science these days" (the answer to which, is "science!").

Yes, agreed that human systems have a tendency to corruption, however the scientific method at least has within it the seeds to "keep the bastards honest" (as we say where I come from). i.e.

1\. Nothing stops you from learning and becoming a scientist. 2\. Nothing stops you from attempting to repeat published experiments, or if you can't, then to point out why (which are likely to be faults in either the description or execution of the original experiment).

In other words, there is transparency and a basis for objective comparison. Lack of transparency (either through gatekeeping or lack of detail) is considered a bad sign in science. That's what differentiates the scientific method, from say, the "political method", or "the religious method".

<comment><USER14> I think you're not going to win this argument, but I will point out that you can't look at a giant meadow of grass, focus on a few weeds and say, "see, it's not grass!".

As a system, science has brought about a better understanding of the physical world around us and has dramatically improved the lives of every human on the planet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I think the parents of many 20 and 30-somethings played a role in so many young(ish) adults failing to launch.

American parents could learn a thing or two about parenting from previous generations and from a lot of immigrant families: nobody owes you anything, plan for a rainy day, find a partner you love and commit to them, work hard, cherish friends and family even when it's difficult, etc.

I think parenting has over-corrected from the overly didactic and stern parenting of previous generations to endless "follow your bliss" and "you can do anything" \-- which is causing a lot of young people to spin their wheels for decades at a time, never growing up while their body is growing old. It's a shame to see.

<comment><USER16> I feel similarly with the differences between me and my family vs my wife and her family. I grew up not desperately poor, but with only just enough money to get by. In the late 90s we had a computer, a basic Windows 95 machine with dial-up and about 1/4 of the RAM/CPU that modern machines had, but we had one. That's about all we had for modern comforts, which I think forced me to be laser-focused on one activity. There just wasn't a lot of opportunity for me anywhere else but the computer. If I decided I didn't like computers and wanted to be a painter, there was no way we were buying art supplies. I asked for a computer and I got it and that was all I was going to get.

My wife's family wasn't rich, but the parenting attitude was "whatever you want, follow your heart". The kids had painting, sculpting, pianos, guitars, drums, dance lessons, soccer, karate, foreign language tutors, and anything else they desired. As soon as they got bored or frustrated, they quit and moved on to the next thing. The hope from the parents was if they were exposed to enough stuff, they'd find their passion. Of the three kids, only my wife has a steady job, and only because I nearly broke up with her when she was job hopping while we were dating. The other siblings quit their jobs at the first sign of any real struggle and move back in with their parents. I believe it's because they've never been forced to work past the uninteresting or difficult parts of any hobby or job in the past.

I don't know where the line should be drawn between giving kids every opportunity to find their passion versus making them stick with something they may not actually enjoy. I hope I figure that out before I have kids.

<comment><USER17> If your only had a piano, instead of a computer, your story wouldn't be particularly convincing. People who grew up with a computer, before most other people had one, were lucky to find a rapidly growing industry. Most other people are getting very little for their single focus.

<comment><USER16> If I only had a piano to entertain myself I probably would not be a professional piano player, you are correct. But that's not the point of the anecdote. Replace my computer with anything else, and the frustrations will still be the same. The boredom and experimentation and learning and moments of clarity and joy and pain will still be the same.

Whether I carry the piano into my adult life doesn't matter. I've still learned how to stick through something difficult without quitting and moving on to the next exciting thing. The most valuable lesson learned in this story is that everything worth doing is boring and difficult sometimes. If you never stick through it beyond that point, you'll never learn that lesson.

<comment><USER17> I do think it matters, because we are trying to establish some sort of utility of having focus in the context of the conversation. The theory of this thread is that a lack of focus is harmful and, at least partly, to blame for why young people are struggling.

You can be the most dedicated piano player, but if you later decides to channel that dedication into e.g. writing you are very likely to be struggling anyways. So now you are essentially in the same boat as everyone else.

Young people are mainly struggling because education, housing and long term careers are competitive and costly. Of course dedication can help with being successful in almost any sense of the word. But overall it is very likely overshadowed by other factors as e.g. your position in the housing market.

How many people who could afford a mortgage in a major city in their early twenties, by any means, are struggling with their lives today? Certainly a few, but surely a lot less than those who don't yet have a stable home in their thirties.

<comment><USER16> I personally think learning how to focus and power through a struggle is the important skill to learn, regardless of what form it takes. Finishing 10 imperfect paintings is more of a learning experience than never finishing one perfect painting. Finishing a terrible novel in NaNoWriMo is more important than giving up because your story is bad. Making it through school with a C+ is more important than dropping out because it's too hard. If you're going for a run, the first mile might be excruciating pain but then the runner's high kicks in. Now every time you go for a run after that, you'll know to grin and bear it because the pain will go away and it will get easier.

I'm arguing that it's not _what_ skill you learn, but rather that you _did_. You moved past something being new and exciting, got to the point where it was frustrating and boring, and you kept going anyway. I'm now wishing I hadn't use a computer as my example because I still feel like you're taking the wrong lesson from my anecdote. I don't credit my childhood computer use for my successful career as an adult. I credit my (forced) single-minded focus, where giving up was not an option.

In this story, my siblings-in-law never knew that it gets easier, never knew that there is a plateau you can overcome, and never made it to the other side. Because they never had to. It's a story about not giving up, not a story about how everyone should learn to use a computer.

<comment><USER17> I just don't think it is accurate. Often pursuing something means giving up other things, which won't help you not to struggle in life. There is often no plateau in menial or highly competitive professions. Trying to e.g. become a writer will leave you struggling for a long time. Unless some can provide for you in the meantime, which has little to do with your own focus. I just don't think focus as such is that relevant for whether you will struggle or not in life. A lazy programmer is still on average very likely going to struggle less than a dedicated service worker. There are plenty of, say, high school football players who have more grit than most of us but are doing worse in life than the kid who barely knew how to tie his own shoes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I think the issue isn't the "wasted life" but rather how one measures their life.

If she was in a committed relationship, had offspring, a home with equity, savings, and a career, there is no guarantee that would bring her fulfillment.

And even if you had that fulfillment, there is no guarantee it lasts.

Life is hard, it's cruel and not at all fair. And the way to survive is learn that no matter how hard it hits, you have to keep moving forward. I feel for the author. I do.

I had "everything" going for me and in less than a year I found myself jobless, homeless, and prohibited from seeing my kids except for a few hours a day. Why? Because I finally stood up for us and called 9-1-1 on their mother for domestic violence.

I'll edit:

I'm now working on a new startup, loving every minute of it. I have a small apartment, and I have joint custody and parenting decisions with my kids. I'm getting help through a DV survivor group, making sure to prioritize my self care, and starting to date again. This struggle has brought me closer to friends, family, and to God, and has made me a better father. And it reminds me never to take for granted the things in life that I find joy in.

<comment><USER19> Thanks for sharing. I had a close friend who was in a similar situation, and came to court to support him during the custody decision. It was so emotionally draining for me even as an outsider I can't begin to imagine actually being in that situation while trying to keep a career.

<comment><USER20> I had an experience with a woman who was banging on my door at night and threatening me. She had said she "already claimed me." I dont care about this woman and I dont have any ill will towards her but the whole thing was extroardinarily insane. Apparently she was working as a prostitute (someone else told me this and then showed me her ads on a website called backpage). After she threatened to physically hurt me, I eventually filed for a protection order. One witness said they would testify because they saw it. I asked my landlord for the video surveillance, but she said she would only provide it through subpoena. I couldnt find an affordable lawyer or figure out how to subpoena it before the court date. Later that witness renegged, saying they were threatened and said frankly 'I dont want you to get hurt, but who I really care about is myself and my family.' Others told me she had gone around saying her family was heavily involved in gang activity and she had told them to hurt me. She had posted strange things on FB about blood and violence, which some had shown me.

Nobody really wanted to help me beyond that, though. One lawyer I visited said "I cant help you," because she assumed I was the aggressor. I explained I wasn't and that I had proof, then said, 'yea I know most of the time it is probably is the guy who is the aggressor' and then she said "I knew you were a rampant sexist." What in God's name is this?

Nobody seemed seriously interested in putting things down to help me. Several other people seemed to end up hating me without ever even talking to me. It turned out my state had strict 2-party consent laws so whatever other evidence I could have possible have had was illegitimate. Many others privately told me they were sorry and that I should just 'move some new place and dont tell anyone.' Jesus Christ, I dont know, I didn't ask for this. Honestly, what the fuck. Sometimes the world seems insane.

<comment><USER21> This is becoming a common thread these days; assuming the male is the aggressor. I've heard stories of girlfriends beating their boyfriend so bad as to have him visibly bleeding, yet when the he calls 911, _he_ is the one that gets arrested with the police saying something along the lines of, "Yeah, there's no way a little girl like that beat you up."

I would venture to guess that the majority of domestic violence is male against female, but we have to start recognizing and allowing for the fact that it happens the other way around more often than we might be willing to think.

<comment><USER22> > I would venture to guess that the majority of domestic violence is male > against female

Why?

The data suggests it's close to 50-50.

<comment><USER21> Really? Wow. I didn't realize that. Are there good sources for this kind of information you can refer me to?

<comment><USER23> Abusers are about equally men and women. A surprisingly large percentage of those partners are mutually abusive (I forgot if it's more like 25% or more like 50% but both are high IMO). Men hurt women more because men are, duh, stronger.

<comment><USER18> In an abusive relationship, there is always a dominant abuser.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> _Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.

So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking. Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, shorter of breath and one day closer to death._

This is an old true story. And the answer given by the article is mostly useless, some nonsense about the nature of art and accumulating a "treasure that doesn't disappear" or something.

One thing you realize when you're old is that time is finite and life is all about trade-offs. Every day by choosing the things you do you are continuously foreclosing a whole range of things you aren't doing, and soon will never do.

We live in a consumerist culture increasingly dominated by those with a financial interest in keeping us ignorant of this fact, but that doesn't make it any less true.

<comment><USER25> _So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it 's sinking_

And you might be racing for something you don't really want.

Figure out what you really want before you chase after it. If you're unmarried at 35, do you really _want_ children, or do you think that you're supposed to have children and that doing so will make you feel more fulfilled? Not everyone needs or wants to be a parent and there's nothing wrong with not being one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Everyone around us is fighting their own little war. I've felt similarly to the writer -- I moved out of my childhood home the day after graduating college and started work that Monday. I only moved 215 miles (NYC to Boston), but it felt a world away, especially considering most Americans live relatively close to where they grew up and 215 miles in Europe goes a long way.

I've made and abandoned friends at almost every stage in my life. I have no idea who will be the best man at my wedding because to be honest my brother probably isn't up to the "responsibilities", but I have no alternative.

I now live on the west cost, a tough 6 hour flight away from home. I visited my family this Thanksgiving and am noticing so many changes, people are dying, babies are being born, my cousins who I've always viewed as children are about to graduate college. It's tough being away from home and not feeling like I have roots (I'm considering a move to Seattle or the Bay Area in early 2019), but at every step I've justified my actions because the next step always came with a significant pay increase and more career opportunities.

This January will be my 13th anniversary with my high school girlfriend (soon to be fiance). I can't describe how valuable it's been to have someone so close in age (I'm 3 months older) that can relate to the things that I'm going through, and who has my back, and knows that I have hers. Things haven't been easy, but it's become so much more than a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship, which is why marriage is in our future.

I've met so many fellow millennials who are serial monogamist or date freely, I don't judge them at all and at some times have felt a tinge on envy, and these folks may have a friend or family member who is to them what my girlfriend is to me -- I guess all this is to say that in today's society I just don't know how we can traverse this reality with at least one person who you are tightly integrated with. It's just too tough out there.

<comment><USER27> Your story has a similar outline to my own. I moved from the UK to Canada which has been excellent for my career but at the same time has put enormous strain on my relationships as I just don't get to see people thanks to splitting a really shitty vacation allowance (3 weeks Canada wtf).

Now I'm torn between putting down roots in Toronto, moving out to the sticks, moving to Europe to be close to everyone or doing the right thing for my career by going to the US.

<comment><USER28> I am in the exact same situation. I moved to Canada from Europe and it has been really tough thanks to three measly weeks of vacation. I can't remember the last time I have been on a real two+ weeks vacation somewhere that is not my home country.

I am thinking about all those same options except the moving to the US thing. Even though I could earn much more money, I don't think that would be worth it living in a country like the US.

<comment><USER27> It's a shame that vacation isn't as easily negotiable as salary. I'd take a 10% hit on salary for every week of vacation.

Hell. I'd take a 10% hit on salary for a week of unpaid vacation.

<comment><USER29> I've been trying that for years and I never get anywhere. Makes all the hoo- rah about negotiating over a job offer feel pretty hollow - the form of compensation I really want is never, ever on the table.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> J-dawg It's politically incorrect, but I feel like feminism has sold a massive lie to women like this.

Admittedly much of what she describes could apply to either gender, but it's women who are hit hardest by fading looks and declining fertility.

It used to be accepted cultural knowledge that if a woman desired marriage and children, she should probably spend her 'best years' looking for and committing to a husband. Now you'd be labelled a misogynist for even suggesting that.

Women have been indoctrinated to think that they can spend their 20s and early 30s being 'the poster child for serial monogamy', and then have a husband fall into their lap when they're ready for it. I'm sure it works out for many of them, but I feel sorry for the ones for whom it doesn't.

<comment><USER30> This is true for men as well.

Me and my wife have an 8 year old son, however I'm 36 years old and right now I don't feel like I'm capable of having another child.

Our son is a premature baby, born at 30 weeks, after what was a very troubled pregnancy. And then when he was one year old he suffered from Lyell's syndrome. Plus he's always been more sensitive to catching cold, etc. Now at 8 years old he's a healthy, good looking boy, does well in school, etc and I tell you, it's a miracle that he turned out as well as he did.

We were also fortunate to live with my mother in law. It's great to have one of your parents around. She babysits for us, she cooks for us, etc. Other people aren't as fortunate.

Being a parent is freaking hard sometimes. Being a parent is also the only thing that I'll never regret, possibly the best thing we ever did in our life.

But you need the energy of your twenties to do it. The sooner you do it, the better. Even if you're a man.

<comment> J-dawg It's not true for men to anything like the same extent.

I totally understand why you don't have the energy for another kid. We're the same age and I don't think I've got the energy for one kid.

But the fact remains that biologically you could have another kid now or in 10, perhaps even 20 years. For a woman that's a virtual impossibility. You can't pretend it's the same thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I married very young. My wife and I had very little, both were working jobs for close to minimum wage with no marketable skills between us. So we sat down and decided what we wanted. We both wanted kids, she wanted to stay home with them when they were young. We both wanted a house of our own. We both wanted to live somewhere with family and friends that we could rely on to help us lay down roots and build that home.

So the first thing we did was move to the place we wanted to try and stay forever.

The second step was to go to school and get a skill. We both worked while I went to college for computer science. I'd been building computers since I was a little kid, was always good at math, decided it would be an easy way to get into the job market at a decent salary. I was right.

Next, we paid off all that student loan debt. Stayed in our tiny apartment with next to nothing and just put that new tech salary into the debt until it was totally gone.

Then we bought a house where the mortgage wouldn't be much higher than our tiny apartment. We could afford something three or four times bigger on my salary, but we didn't do that. Stayed small. Maintenance costs are low, cleaning it up is easy, and we don't even have an HOA to bother us (and I don't care, because it's not like I bought my dinky little house as an investment).

Next came the kids. Started having one after another. She stays home, I work, we spend time together as much as possible. We have friends and family nearby that make life so much better in a million ways. Honestly, I have all these roots and commitments and still...zero stress. Life is great.

And now all our extra money is going into long-term investments and traveling. We've started going all sorts of places. We'll be doing a tour of Europe in the next few years and I am in my early thirties at this point.

So here is my message to anyone that read the person above and is reading this post now and hasn't yet spent their twenties and thirties having hobo adventures:

Life is so much better if you just _do what you evolved to do._ There's no way to hack life and make it better in any real way. Pair up, get a trade, build a home, and enjoy that for what it is.

<comment><USER32> > _So we sat down and decided what we wanted._

How did you know that's what you wanted? What gives you the authority to say that's the best path for everyone?

Consider an analogy for me - you mentioned travel. Have you ever driven through the mountains? Hiked up a few? Even from the road, it's easy to look up and see spectacular peaks calling out your name, begging to be climbed.

And coming from a flat, midwestern state, you may need to recalibrate your eyeballs for distance: You can't park the car for lunch and walk up most of them if you start in the afternoon...it's likely to take most of a vacation to hike in and up one or two peaks, so you need to plan your route before you arrive at the park.

The tragedy of the story is that there's no better viewpoint from which to gaze at a distant mountain and imagine a climb up it than from the path up the adjacent one you're climbing up.

I'm not yet thirty and have a family, a home, savings, a degree, and a career. I've got life-long commitments and am building solid roots like I thought I should, but now that I've got that all checked off it's not what I thought it would be. I've just got to continue trudging up this mountain I picked as a 17-year-old applying for college and dating one of the girls from high school. It's time to work my 40 hours, enjoy a few weeks vacation every year, and wait for retirement until eventually dying. It's quickly starting to feel unfulfilling and stifling.

The author of the article has spent her twenties and thirties bouldering up dozens of smaller cliffs and clambering over foothills all over the place. You denigrate them as "hobo adventures" but it sounds magnificent to me. I won't get to spend my thirties adventuring like that because I have a wife and a kid and a trade and a home, and it's just not all it's cracked up to be.

<comment><USER31> Sounds like your perspective involves an omniscient ideal that does not and can not exist. Tradition exists for this very reason. We pass on what works, we do what works, and we don't presume to know what is better. That is what makes human beings so good at learning - we have the ability to hyper imitate one another. I see you doing something successfully, I don't need to know the actual process behind it, I just need to do it the way you do it.

Gratitude for what you have is a critical component of the formula. You seem to lack that. I hope you find it. You won't last long without it.

I recommend church. It helps. You evolved to do that too.

<comment><USER18> I'm assuming you're American...

What you've written (own a home, have job, make kids, go to church) really only applies to american's, who make up ~300m out of 7b people currently inhabiting our planet.

That definition of what we're evolved to do, is incredibly myopic; more so if you consider that definition of middle class has really only been around since the mid 1900's?

Home ownership is very much ingrained in American culture because of it's ties to the US economy (for those who own homes, it's typically they're only investment).

FWIW, I think it's great that you and your spouse have found meaning in your lives.

<comment><USER31> You're 100% correct, but I'm posting this to the audience of Hacker News. I highly doubt we have too many representatives from the true lower classes here.

And to be clear, I don't mean "own a home" when I say "build a home." A home is composed of the people you are committed to and the people you love. I don't mean buy a house or buy anything, actually. I mean building an identity for yourself that includes the notion of "home."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> > _And with men I date, I feel pressure to make something of the relationship > too soon (move in, get married, "I have to have kids in a couple of years"; > fun times!). All the while still trying to be the sexpot 25-year-old I > thought I was until what seemed like a moment ago._

It sounds like going from one end of the spectrum (aventuros, yolo) to the other (a family, fast), all while punching above their weight, so to speak, in terms of compatible long term partners.

Most young women can easily find "serial monogamous", short term, male partners with highly desirable qualities such as physical good looks, relative success, social skills etc., but most of this limited pool knows they are desirable and do not really want to get bogged down with a family.

When youth starts to fade away, reality kicks in - the highly desirable partners are not interested, and the average ones are already committed to long time partners who valued them in their own youth. Their "family" started a long time ago with mutual investment - you can choose not to make that trade-off but cannot have the cake and eat it too.

<comment><USER34> I'm 33 and male, I find it amazing how the dating balance has shifted since I was 23. If I wanted I could easily line up multiple dates per week with women who I'd date. When I was younger a lot of women wouldn't give me the time of day.

<comment><USER35> Honest question, how do you meet them? I find things like dating apps are horribly tilted to the young?

<comment><USER34> Mainly dating apps. I live in a very large city and I keep my age filters somewhat appropriate (27-35). If you struggle with dating apps I'd recommend getting decent photos, even if you need to pay a photographer and spend a day taking good Tinder/etc photos. Dating, even from people looking for serious partners, is a very shallow game. The more attractive someone finds you, the more interest they'll show you. This makes conversation much easier.

<comment><USER36> So a wider age range is inappropriate for your age? 27-35 seems fairly narrow. What are your limits for appropriate age range?

<comment><USER34> When I say appropriate I mean "an age range which will likely result in swipes from them too". I'm not what a lot of 23 year olds want but I'm fairly desirable for a 29 year old. On top of that I don't have anything in common with women who are under 25.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I've known people who lived a life very similar to the one this person describes: moving from town to town, making art wherever they go, meeting new people, floating from relationship to relationship, not much money or stuff to their name, nothing really tying them down. The difference is that they were the sort of people who said "f_ck 'normal' society and its expectations" – an attitude that I don't see much these days – and, maybe as a result of that attitude, they were really happy people.

> _I used to think I was the one who had it all figured out. Adventurous life > in the city! Traveling the world! Making memories! Now I feel incredibly > hollow. And foolish. How can I make a future for myself that I can get > excited about out of these wasted years?_

I hope she can learn to stop thinking about those years as wasted. She saw and did things that most people never get to see or do because they're too busy working. Plenty of 35-year-olds are in debt, upside-down on their houses, in miserable marriages, and just a few years from getting divorced, buying a convertible, and dating someone inappropriately young for them. More than a few of them would envy her life.

</comment><comment><USER38> I honestly wondered if this was some kind of satire.

I have great sympathy for the person asking for advice, and I suspect they may have been hoping for something a bit more actionable. Also, the advice columnist mentioning their new book and book tour in the reply seems a bit tone-deaf to me.

I hope that she finds a way to start making the changes she wants to see in her life.

<comment><USER39> I agree. Feels like the only reason she decided to respond to this person is to use it as an excuse to shill her new book to her readers and not out of genuine care for the other person.

"Hi Dan, thanks for calling the Suicide Helpline! I know what you're going through is tough. I went through what you're going through too, which I wrote all about in my new book, Suicide Kings, available on Amazon, buy now and get it 20% off the hardcover price for a limited time only! Here's an affiliate link, and an interview I did with the Today show. So yeah, I've been feeling down in the dumps lately too, and you know what I did? I wrote Suicide Kings, only $19.99 in two easy payments if you call 555-555-1513. That's 555-555-1513. Don't kill yourself Dan. I didn't. Write a book instead."

<comment><USER19> Reiterating something I wrote in another comment: the columnist's response is more than 2,300 words long. The mention of her book is 600 words in, is limited to a single sentence with no mention of what it's even about. And it is in the context of how the columnist fights feelings of inadequacy even during the ostensible high point of her career.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> In recent years, biographies of 'famous people' are much less 'cleaned-up' and idealized than they once were. As I've read more of them, it's clearer that the inner lives of people who 'got up on the stage' are pretty much like those of all the rest of us 'down here in the audience'. And so they are more instructive than the PR bios.

This 'haunted' lady was once young and footloose and fancy-free and in pursuit of her dreams. And so were we all. But, once off whatever stage we occupy during the day, we all need to go home. There's where we have to face the same questions ... or distract or anaesthetize ourselves so that we don't.

Nobody has all the answers. Today I like this Kenneth Patchen answer I found yesterday.

"The meaning is in the wonder."

<comment><USER41> Autobiographies in particular, I believe, tend to euhpamize or otherwise distort emotional conflicts, especially those that happen early in the author's life (when their recognition comes later on). I think emotional conflicts are one of the most influential parts of maturing and many autobiographies seem to gloss over their teens/early 20s or look back with a nostalgic lens, unless something extremely traumatic happened during that period.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I could give better advice in a single sentence. To wit, "you should schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist to get screened for adult ADHD."

These life problems are _classic_ adult ADHD symptoms. Moving cities every few years. Not being able to hold down a long-term relationship. Your "who-knows- what-number" job. Debt from poor and impulsive decisions. Lack of internal drive. Difficulty making and keeping friends. "Can barely remember to buy dish soap". Enough difficulty with making deadlines that her boss is reminding her of them.

<comment><USER43> Is it really a diagnosis every single time? Are you saying pills will fix that? Unabashedly, no. Some people just get caught up in the wrong mentality and among peers who think a certain way. That analogy of "blindfolded, sitting on a mountain of glittering gems" makes a lot of sense. It's the lack of perspective/awareness.

Awareness is the antidote.

<comment><USER42> I definitely might be off track on this, which is why I said to visit an actual professional.

>It's the lack of perspective/awareness.

This is another ADHD symptom: a relative nearsightedness to behavioral consequences that are far away in time.

<comment><USER44> You are acting like someone that just got into carpentry and just discovered that hammers are a thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> > And with men I date, I feel pressure to make something of the relationship > too soon (move in, get married, "I have to have kids in a couple of years"; > fun times!).

I think most, if not all problems people have that aren't resource-driven (not making enough money to live) boil down to lack of ability to enjoy the present moment. And maybe even the resource-driven ones as well. If people could just learn how to relax, appreciate what you do have, realize it could be a lot worse, smell the roses, then they could get centered and plan for the future more effectively.

But instead many people just get caught in these catch-22s where they're depressed over not being where they want to be. But there's _always_ somewhere you're going to want to be, you're never going to be 100% perfectly content with everything. Discontent isn't the worst thing in the world, but people let it sabotage their well-being and mental health. So sad.

<comment><USER46> Agree, all of these thoughts of hypothetical's that instantiate people's continuous internal dialogue take away, especially, from the beauty and mystery of connection with another person. Everyone has this 'agenda'(whether conscious or not) that, as some sort of psychic mold, must fit and restrict the reality of the present moment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> > It's okay to be in debt and worried.

Not in this case. With no family/child obligations, the short term goal-- and, depending on the size of the debt, midterm goal-- needs to be paying down the debt.

Just take the example of the measly two-nights-in-a-hotel savings. Without debt she could freely decide to save for a month or two and increase that number by one or two orders of magnitude (depending on current job's income). Ahhh.

With debt that savings _cannot increase_. No decisions are available to make.

Sorry to be flippant but getting out of debt is the only option here. Giving any other advice would be like talking chess strategy to someone eternally stuck playing tic-tac-toe.

</comment><comment><USER48> When I was in college there was an older woman doing my course who was a little like this - had lived all over the world, and had had the kind of wild life that I envied. I learned from her that memories of good times don't make you happy - quite the opposite, in fact, if your present is a let-down.

<comment><USER49> As a wise older friend puts it, neither the past nor the future is real. Only the present is real.

<comment><USER50> _Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present. Our life has no end in the way in which our visual field has no limits._

\- Ludwig Wittgenstein

<comment><USER51> I feel like what he's saying is similar to the way that the open interval between 0 and 1 has no end when viewed as an open set in real analysis. Which is nice, but the only time I felt that I could advance time by infinitesimally small increments I was on mushrooms.

<comment><USER50> I read an explanation of the quote awhile ago, and IIRC the German word he uses is actually better translated as "outside of time" and not "timeless."

In other words, the only way to escape the concept of incremental time is to not think of it as increments at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> The most important thing for humans, is other humans. That gets left out of these types of discussions a lot, I think.

I'm not one to hark back to the "glory days" of primitive society, but original humans operated in relatively close-knit groups, even when those groups were nomadic.

I don't think we've moved on, psychologically, from that. There's a lot of cliches that touch on this, like "social media isn't the same as real relationships," but ultimately I think what Haunted needs is to just pick one place and find a community. A real community, not just girlfriends to drink with once a week.

In our modern, complex society, it's not as easy as it sounds, since we don't all get a community by birthright like a lot of rural communities in the 99% agricultural days did, but there are tools and such to help you find an interest and a community.

In her case, as someone who also aspires to write, there are writers seeking community with other writers in nearly every town in the USA, and definitely every major city. It sounds weird to say you can fix your problems on meetup.com, but there's no substitution for consistent human contact and real friendships that go beyond work functions or weekend softball games.

<comment><USER53> _but there 's no substitution for consistent human contact and real friendships_

This. Some of my friends just wouldn't eat alone - they'd rather starve than eat a meal by themselves. I, on the other hand, have been eating alone for the last 15 years. I didn't understand why it is such a big deal, when I was younger - now, I am beginning to think my friends were right. Friendship, when it is simple/without strings attached/genuine, is a beautiful thing to have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> The problem I have with this answer is it basically denies the problem exists.

Sure, in a sense, everything is subjective. All suffering is caused by the lens through which we filter reality. I believe Viktor Frankl writes persuasively on this topic after his experience in a concentration camp.

But that's a non answer in any practical terms, and telling someone their suffering is all in their head is rarely a solution for anything.

This person made a series of choices over many years that has led to being 35, with no partner, no kids, no career, and no artistic pursuits. This legitimately sucks and is a hard problem that can't be fixed overnight. It's certainly not going to go away by denying that it sucks and all you need is an attitude adjustment.

The person who wrote this response has a husband, kids, a prominent column and a book deal. She should be ashamed for her response.

The person writing in can change their life, and all those awesome experiences will be of use and enrich the future. But the change toward the life they want will probably require small, incremental, consistent steps, hard work, and honesty.

Anyway, that's what I think.

<comment><USER55> > But that's a non answer in any practical terms, and telling someone their > suffering is all in their head is rarely a solution for anything.

Hm I disagree with this but am open to be shown why I'm wrong.

> This person made a series of choices over many years that has led to being > 35, with no partner, no kids, no career, and no artistic pursuits. This > legitimately sucks and is a hard problem that can't be fixed overnight. It's > certainly not going to go away by denying that it sucks and all you need is > an attitude adjustment.

You are assuming that this sucks but I would then ask why does it suck?

I imagine there are people who also have no partner, kids, career, or artistic pursuits and are happy living their lives that way.

My understanding is that the unhappiness stems from her own expectations. She's unhappy because she wanted something and doesn't have it.

But the reality is that even if she gets all the things she talks about, she may still be unhappy because she wants other things. It is like people who continue to make more money but also continue to strive to have fancier and fancier things.

So I guess I disagree because I think an attitude adjustment is indeed the right thing to do here. Don't get me wrong, there are very real problems that this person is facing like her finances or lack of close friends. But things like having a career, artistic pursuits, and arguably kids, are not things that are required for living.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> Anyone else read the Dear Polly part ...and just couldn't bring themselves to the Dear Haunted / advice part?

I felt like just trying to sit in that situation; sort of ponder the whole thing without coming to any conclusions. How many people do I know who could be Haunted? How many times have I been Haunted myself? What got me out of that space?

I just couldn't read the advice part.

I think to the points when I've been in that dreadful place like Haunted. A few friends reaching out asking "how are you?" without offering any advice and especially not sharing a fucking story riddled with survivorship bias. Those little acts seemed to clear the fog; and even better, I _knew_ that they just wanted to reach out and ensure that I knew they were thinking about me.

<comment><USER57> IMO, most of the advice given to to the stuff Haunted says is usually the same no matter who the advice giver is. "Just be yourself", "If you stopped being so negative all the time you would be happier", "You can do whatever you want to do", "The only person holding yourself back is you".

I've read a lot of this stuff and it generally feels like a wash. Like someone who has already overcame their problems and is at the high point is giving you these answers and to be honest, there isn't really much advice you can give unless you know them personally. There isn't much you can give a person who is feeling empty and disheartened.

<comment><USER58> I agree. It's impossible to fix these type of problems with advice. Deep problems of identity.

"Be comfortable with yourself" is advice that is technically true, but to get from here to there, so to speak, requires putting yourself into a messy, vulnerable personal relationship with another human being, who cares about you enough to break through and force you to care in turn. "Advice" is useless when it comes to deep interpersonal problems like this.

Also, you can give easily advice like this without having ever fixed yourself: Just repeat platitudes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> A while back I worked at a company I really liked. I made lots of good friends there and it was, I think, the best time in my life to date.

A few days before I left that company, people have taken me out for farewell drinks. We hang out until late at night, having fun, drinking and eating and chatting and so on. Until it's like midnight and we all have to go home.

One of my friends is the new girl. She's pretty attractive, and new in town. She's also from the suburbs and hasn't figured out the basic safety steps to being able to walk through downtown SF safely late at night, so she asks if I can walk her to her apartment. I say of course.

As we start walking, she starts bawling. I take it things haven't been going to well in her life and she's got some demons to grapple with. Well that's fine, I'm not going to ignore a friend in need when she calls for help. So we sit and I listen as she goes for about two hours, telling me her problems.

What were her problems? More or less the same as what was written in this article. She had just turned 30 and was starting to realize that she had nothing to show for it and the time available to her to settle down was quickly evaporating.

It broke my heart. She was a really cool person. She was smart, and pretty, and yet still down to earth. Unlike a lot of people I'd met in SF, she wasn't snobby or arrogant. She had a lot going for her. But at the same time, she was on the same path as OP was and I didn't see her getting off it any time soon.

Her big thing was travelling. She loved to travel. She'd been all over the world. She'd done backpacking, she'd done hotelling. She spent a few years living on a boat the Caribbean doing scuba stuff. She spent a few years living in an expat community in Asia. She had had a lot of experiences. But unfortunately, experiences are expensive, and it's really hard to put down roots when you're constantly on the move. And she was being made miserable by the conflict between her desire for an exciting life and her desire for a stable life.

I didn't know what to say, so I tried my best to be a good friend in the moment. I haven't heard from any of the folks from that company in a few years. I hope she's found the life she wanted, and that she doesn't end up like OP

<comment><USER46> >made miserable by the conflict between her desire for an exciting life and her desire for a stable life.

I think this perennial human conflict raises its head in this post and discussion. It seems that how it presents itself in peoples lives depends on personality, upbringing, culture of influence etc. However, I get the sense that its a real thing in most cultures but with varying degrees of mutuality between 'adventure' and 'stability'.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I'm currently halfway through a period where I miss a lot of life as I'm studying while working full time. My time commitments make it very difficult for me to do many activities, I'm often too tired anyway and I really cannot commit to a serious partner for another 2 years despite the fact I prefer to be in a relationship. I occasionally have periods where I feel like life is slipping me by but I refocus and remind myself that this is only temporary and that I'm working so hard for my future with concrete short-term goals.

On the other hand, I'm quite lucky. I have two children who I have more days than not, so I don't have the fertility pressure the author of this article has. I suspect her biggest issue with her life is her fertility, as she sees an entire path her life could have taken fading away rapidly. I've dated a lot of women over the last few years and the one thing I've noticed is that women over 30, and especially 32, often seem more focused on finding a father for their children than a partner. The author even touches on how hard this makes dating, the pressure these women feel to get serious and start a family in a very short period of time.

I'm 33 now and I have a large number of female friends who are reaching the point where things are becoming urgent. They've had these amazing lives so far, full of travel and hitting career goals, but they've neglected to find a stable relationship and now they're looking at their own fertility. I recently attended a small reunion of some college friends and of the 4 women, only 1 had children while 2 are 33+, single and childless and both of them seemed to want a partner/family. These are great women too who would have a lot to offer in a relationship but it's just hasn't worked out that way.

In either 12 or 24 months, my ex-wife and I are moving to another city nearby where her family is. It's smaller, cheaper (I could buy a house immediately), has a really amazing beach culture, etc. I intend to plant roots hard and put in a lot of effort to meet new people and make solid friends

</comment><comment><USER60> At least this person can communicate and can open themselves up emotionally. But it sounds like this person would have mental health issues no matter what their current situation was. A partner or job isn't going to fix that.

Anxiety is living in the future. Depression is living in the past. Wanting a good experience is a bad experience. Accepting a bad experience is a good experience.

<comment><USER61> Thats actually a very good summary. I found Vipassana mindfulness meditation helps immensely to achieve happiness by detaching the self from outside influences that would otherwise make me unhappy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> The holidays are an emotional meat grinder. Its the hap hap happiest time of the year alright. This time of year is the lowest for most people but it is demanded of us to hide our desperation. Unfortunately it also distorts are situation. The situation really is better than we think it is. A lot of us get irrational this time of year. It will be better in the spring when the holiday hysteria is long gone.

<comment><USER61> There are more suicides in spring than during holidays. Spring wants you to be happy, the contrast is too harsh. Winter depression is normal.

<comment><USER62> Looks like you are right. I read a little that said january 24 is the most depressing day of the year and April is the worst month for suicides.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I've always thought life is a balancing act of "building" and "experiencing." Building relationships, communities, homes, organizations, education (your self) and experiencing other countries, different jobs, lifestyles, foods, etc.

Western culture as a whole has gone a little too far in the "experience" direction. You can see this in little ways, like the fact that Legos are sold as pre-planned structures and not generic building blocks, or how electronics today are replaced and not repaired.

We really need a revitalization of a "creator" culture to combat the present consumer one.

<comment> 52-6F-62 > _like the fact that Legos are sold as pre-planned structures and not generic > building blocks_

This is completely tangential, but to be fair they're sold in both ways. I'm what most people would call a grown man, but I still can't help myself (or my girlfriend sometimes) and we pick up the odd set.

You can still buy large sets of mixed blocks, as well as the models. I've got a few models posted around my place because I enjoy them, but we also have [at least one] classic creator kit[s]. Even as a "grown up" it feels good for the soul sometimes.

[https://www.lego.com/en-us/themes/classic/](https://www.lego.com/en- us/themes/classic/)

<comment><USER50> Yeah you can still buy them, but when I was a kid 25 years ago, there were no corporate-branded sets and "classic" Legos were the default.

<comment> 52-6F-62 I hear you, but this isn't a new conundrum in creative fields/play.

Artists' studios have long worked in a similar way, employing others to continually emulate an original ideal that an artist would ultimately brand.

I understand it's a little different, but we don't regret people admiring da Vinci as much as they do. People haven't stopped painting since the works of masters, and in many cases are inspired to see what is possible— and people still paint as a creative act. With reference to Lego— I covet that Apollo Saturn rocket model, and I'm often in awe of some of the creativity and skill that has gone into many of the models designed in their studios.

I grew up in the age of Lego models, though less sophisticated than they are now— I did start with my mother's early 70's sets.

Maybe the issue lies elsewhere— not that the predesigned models exist at all, but the consumerist motivation to just buy up those [models] for children instead of first exposing them to the basics without any other aspiration and gradually increasing exposure. I mean, that's how we've done painting for a long time— the kids get finger paints, wax crayons and cheap newsprint first. Then later they can see some master works, and maybe get a paint-by-numbers to see that their hands are just as capable of producing the same with the right practice.

<comment><USER63> I love building stuff / legos - but the space constraint to keep the built models is a pain. How are you tackling that?

<comment> 52-6F-62 Well I have to say that I'm really not tackling it haha.

My girlfriend and I share a one bedroom apartment and it's a touch small (having downsized for reasons not our own).

I do keep a series of bookshelves along one wall that are largely filled with books but leave some space for other things like a couple of models. Others sit on the TV stand. They're just kind of peppered in places where they won't get in the way but are still viewable

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I'm astonished that the columnist didn't advise something that seems blindingly obvious to me: find a therapist to talk to - not someone who's going to automatically say "have some Prozac" but someone outside yourself to talk with about these issues. That letter just screams depression (or maybe bipolar on a downswing), but some of it may be just needing to figure out where and what you want to be.

<comment><USER65> > That letter just screams depression (or maybe bipolar on a downswing),

Um no. It sounds like someone with no people to spend time with, that's living paycheck to paycheck, that is one financial emergency from financial ruin.

That doesn't automatically equate depression. When you're worrying if somethings going to happen tomorrow that leaves you penniless that other people around you wouldn't even notice the cost of, and you don't have another human as an outlet and for reassurance, you get frustrated and angry and cold and distant and apathetic all at once. You have to or you go nuts.

I don't see her as depressed at all, and unless you are licensed to practice mental health you haven't any business armchair diagnosing someone.

See my parent comment in this thread, I'm not depressed. I've got a few hundred dollars to my name, a ged, no degree, have been rejected by multiple companies this year, will most likely contract and die of cancer before I die of old age, don't have anyone I can call to hang out with, don't have anyone to call if I have an emergency and need help, don't have anyone to ring me up and ask how my life is going without wanting something.

I'm not depressed, I'm fucking tired. I imagine she's not depressed either, just tired. Worn out. In need of something to go in her favor for a change.

It's perfectly normal to feel despair and frustration with your life, that doesn't automatically make you depressed.

Try walking in her shoes, or my shoes, are millions of other shoes. We get out of bed in the morning and ranger the fuck up because we have to to survive. Just because we aren't excited to run off to our shitty jobs and come home to our empty lonely lives doesn't make us depressed, it makes us disadvantaged.

<comment><USER64> Disclaimer: no medical training whatsoever - and because of it in perfectly happy to recommend. There's not nearly enough here for real diagnosis.

There's situation (which may be shitty, been there doing that even if I am playing life on the easy setting of straight white male) and there's also attitude /outlook/approach /how you feel. They influence each other, but they're not the same thing. Your situation may make you depressed, but it's not going to give you depression. On the other side, depression doesn't mean you're in a bad situation except that it includes depression which may make it terrible because it colors everything you perceive. No friends? Maybe, or maybe you can't recognize that people really are friends and do care because depression makes you feel that way. No prospects? Maybe, or maybe...

There are a ton of ways that people get medicated (rightly or not) for depression and for some that may help, but for other people therapy to develop the ability to recognize what's going on and tackle it is going to be enough. Along with developing those skills the simple act of discussing problems with someone may also help a lot, and paying a consultant sorry therapist may mean that you take more from it because you're paying for it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> She's in the gaslit generation; we tell you to live like a college youth; until you can't anymore; then "go away" for the next self destructive generation to arrive and take her place. What happens to the human debris? Who cares.

If you don't have a plan for your life other than reliving being a college freshman over and over every year, when you eventually hit the wall or get tired of the lifestyle with no way out, it'll shatter you, like the woman in the linked story.

<comment><USER67> I'm curious, who tells people to live like college youths?

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> This reminds me of The Buried Giant by Kazuo Ishiguro.

It opens with an old couple who live in a land misted by a fog of forgetfulness. And one of them remembers they have a son they love very much. They haven't seen him in many years, because they had forgotten and they have to get back to him. And they set out to do so.

That feeling of, oh this is an important thing, person, event, skill, and why have I forgotten about it? Why didn't I attend to it? That is just part of the human condition as you get older.

I don't think your life is "wasted". Just accept that regret is part of all lives. Even the person who is happy, has thoughts and ideas about alternatives. Not that you would trade what you have, but you do play out alternative lives. Its perfectly natural.

<comment><USER69> > Just accept that regret is part of all lives.

So true, and so hard to do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> This is not meant to sound like an off the cuff comment, it is not, a lot of thought has gone into this:

Remember this piece before you argue with someone that they should move away from their friends, family, their support systems for work or other development opportunities. It Takes A Village, and your local support system is not to be underestimated.

In the end, all we have is family and/or loved ones ("chosen family"); everything else is fleeting. Spread your wings, but know where Home is (and remember Home is something to be cultivated, and not to be taken for granted).

<comment><USER71> >Remember this piece before you argue with someone that they should move away from their friends, family, their support systems for work or other development opportunities.

Blood is certainly thicker than water as they say, for good and for evil. I used to think exactly as you stated the above and I don't mean to suggest how rigid you are but my recent experience with family is that relationships must go both ways, and when your attempts at expressing yourself go unheard or ignored then perhaps cutting ties is the right approach.

<comment><USER70> > I used to think exactly as you stated the above and I don't mean to suggest > how rigid you are but my recent experience with family is that relationships > must go both ways, and when your attempts at expressing yourself go unheard > or ignored then perhaps cutting ties is the right approach.

I would encourage you to use this as a growth opportunity. I had a similar situation occur with a close family member who died unexpectedly, and years later, my heart still hurts every day because of it. Take care of your self, but grow emotionally to put yourself out there when you can.

I won't discount that cutting ties is appropriate under certain circumstances. For myself, it is a last resort. People are people, fallible to their core.

<comment><USER71> I appreciate your reply, but starting a message with advice instead of understanding leaves me wondering if you're more interested in being an advice dispenser than understanding where I'm coming from and then giving advice.

Forgive my reaction, my family is adept at that very thing: pretending to listen then dispensing the advice they think will fix you and your problems; I've now realized that empathy means simply listening actively, and generally the complainer will come to the correct conclusion on their own, they just need a willful listening ear.

At least, I've never been genuinely convinced I was in the wrong unless someone first recognized my pains then gave advice or I noticed someone else's example. My entire life has constituted shame-based discipline, and not even the direct "you're stupid for doing x thing" but "she's your mother, she brought you into this world." Like, yeah, but that doesn't help me not be upset, and I may have even agreed at the time but the point is my emotions are high and ignoring my feelings leaves me subconsciously believing that my emotional being is wrong or unimportant.

tl;dr I'm a big boy, I can get over it but understand me before giving advice

<comment><USER70> Assume positive intent on my part.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> I don't think the message "35-year old is still very young" is useful.

Life is really hard and is contant suffering. You might die at 95 year-old, but you might die tomorrow. Taking responsibilities instead of blaming the world is often the only way to go.

<comment><USER73> 35 years is still very young in the sense that you can still begin a new career.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> Expectations. I think Haunted believed it would be easy to have it all.

>But your concept of yourself makes no sense. You got it from a rom-com.

Bingo. Everything is a trade-off. On top of that, our best-laid schemes often go wrong. Sometimes years or decades of sacrifice to a career, relationship, or family makes one _worse_ off, not better.

I don't know if a perfect system exists for living one's life but here's a nugget or two -

1) Love is a choice, not an emotional state (learned by watching my Dad.) 2) Reassess often. 3) Don't fear changing things, including yourself. 4) Most people will die having achieved little that _others_ would consider worthy of praise. That includes the others. 5) Having lived at all is something 99.99999999+% (by mass) of the Universe will never experience. Though maybe I'm wrong here - stars, nebulae, and galaxies may actually be alive for all we know.

</comment><comment><USER75> I think a lot of people are ignoring the gendered context of the narrative she's presenting: the cultural notion that, as a woman, your value is measured in terms of your attractiveness and fertility.

Those decline as you get older, and so does your value. When you are in your 20s you need to "make hay while the sun is shining", leveraging that to get where you want in life before the clock runs out.

It's not a healthy narrative, nor one I agree with. But you can see why she might feel the way she does; she has really squandered the opportunity provided by her youthful beauty.

I feel it myself (as a 36yo transwoman), compounded by a tech industry I work in that also has weird ideas about the value of youth.

She needs to not just "get out of a rut" \- she needs to realize that her value to the world is not being attractive, fertile, or wealthy. She needs to get to a place where she feels like she's providing value to others that goes beyond that.

It's an uphill climb, as some of the posts here make very clear - there are a lot of people who view a woman's worth in a similar fashion.

<comment><USER76> The painful truth is that reproductive worth is something that the woman is facing right now. Its fleeting and nearly gone.

Its also a type of worth that stands above most.There are very few jobs or hobbies the average person would be willing to die for in the same way they would for their infant child.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> The saddest part of this story to me is how easily some people can discard friends on a whim.

I have made it an important part of my life and my decision making process to treat my friends like family. That means if I consider a move or any other big change, they are at the forefront of the "is it worth it" question. At 38 it's increasingly hard to make friends (note: not acquaintances), and at this point it's why I have zero interest in leaving Colorado, regardless of the opportunity.

</comment><comment><USER78> Wow, so much HN hate for Polly? It's my opinion that Polly is a national treasure. Her shameless wit and sense of humor make me smile. Her profound love of humanity makes me deeply happy. Not only that, but her writing is so poetic and lovely. Truly a gem.

On the topic of this question/answer, I assume most of you are young? Or at least younger than I am. I can tell you now that the way you feel now will not last. Change is absolute. There will be a time where you will look around you for reasons to be thankful. Make as many reasons as you can. You will need them.

<comment><USER79> I get the sense that there's a lot of embittered-male, "rubbing it in" type comments in this thread. Mixed-gender communities seem to have much more balanced and meaningful discussions for these kinds of topics: [https://www.metafilter.com/171539/I-did-everything-you- said-...](https://www.metafilter.com/171539/I-did-everything-you-said-and-Im- still-alone)

<comment><USER80> MetaFilter has its own problems. One common trope there is the angry, lonely person in their 30s-50s who paints the isolated life as beautiful and meaningful in order to feel better about themselves and possibly lure others into it. You see this the more you know the stories behind the usernames. The writing there is very nice at times, and I love that the small IRL communities have formed, but the discussion here is more honest and the advice is better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> There was a nytimes article about a famous author giving advice to young authors about keep trying, you can do anything. Meanwhile he didn't say he lived off a large inheritance. I think in the arts world its often the only real way and its a problem that people are encouraged to follow their dreams.

<comment><USER82> Eh, I think most failing artists would do well to learn a lot about business.

Very few people care about what's best. Yet so many artists strive to do the "best" something. Write the best story. Write the best song. Paint the greatest painting, and so on...

That's fine. But you've got to know very few people actually care about "best". They care about new, different, someone who's creating art just for them. The ones that actually do care about quality, they're hard to reach, and everyone has different tastes. So no matter how good your art is, a lot of that small group of people who cares about quality probably won't like it still. It's all subjective!

If you want to make a living as an artist, and you don't have an inheritance to live off, stop trying to win the artistic lottery. Start thinking of markets, how to differentiate yourself, how to create something you can sell, how to carve out a niche of people that will buy your art and pay for your living, how to grow that group of people, and over time, maybe you'll grow a big enough following that you can create the exact type of art you want to create.

Until then, create something you can sell or starve. Fantasies are for stories. Life isn't easy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> I sometimes feel like I've won the lottery. The win being absolute absence of urges to travel, make memories or relationships. I just want to be alone and work on my stuff, which also happens to make me financially independent.

I'm old enough to know it's not just a phase. It's just who I am.

<comment><USER84> Same, its great :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> Sometimes you can get distracted (for years) and cut yourself off from the world.

This can be because of adventure Travel, creating a business, or focusing all your energy on one person and then having that relationship fall apart.

I moved cities to be better positioned for my Startup. Ignored all friends and family for 4 years, and ultimately the company failed and I felt very similar to this woman.

The prison system is developing "re-emergence" programs to help inmates reintegrate with the world after being isolated for 20 years. If they can come back to happy lives, anyone can.

But I think there should be more books/classes and programs focused on integrating back with your own life after a period of isolation.

<comment><USER86> Make a list of people, when someone crosses your mind, add to it, maybe with a note. When you have free time send people thoughtful messages.

<comment><USER87> I've been doing something similar recently, and it feels really good tbh. Instead of adding to the note/list, I just reach out right then and there and send them a message/email. It's worked wonderfully to reconnect with family and friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER88> This is a path one can choose. Another is to rediscover the childlike wonderment by becoming a keen observer of nature. It strips away the ego.

We do not really invent anything. We mimic nature. All our Mathematics, Science and Technology already exists. Our egos are unjustified.

Just pay attention to who is actually driving your car or riding your motorcycle. You will realise that it is not the conscious you. There certainly is an autonomous supercomputer in our brains. Can we control it?

The best data storage mechanism known to us is the DNA. No SSD comes close. We haven't even really figured out how our brains really store "videos" and "images".

Also pay attention to things like premonition. I have had it. Most of us have had these experiences. Talk to people about these. There is no scientific explanation for these experiences.

We are connected to everything else. Our lives in isolation have no meaning.

</comment><comment><USER89> So many people here are happy to point out that you should not look at anything about yourself -- and that you should try and make a difference out there.

That's very Zen of you, but it is _SEVERELY_ missing the point. Burnout and depression do not ask for a new reason to live. They ask for a break from the negative experiences that caused -- and now maintain -- the initial burnout and depression. They also ask for sources of energy and optimism.

Amortizing your already tired lower back while voluntarily cleaning a local park won't give you that. It's very likely it will make you less capable of overcoming your burnout and depression, even. (Well-targeted workout can still help though.)

I am disappointed at the massive virtue signalling in HN sometimes.

</comment><comment><USER90> If anybody empathizes with the post, what helped me was volunteering. Helping others and working with a group to help others gives me a lot of appreciation for all the little things that I have. Also, going out of my way to make someone else smile helps me stay happy. Compliments are a great way to start, I was inspired by a cool article about giving the perfect compliment - [https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/sex/a6271/how-to- complimen...](https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/sex/a6271/how-to- compliment-1009/)

Being nice to others in a genuine way builds trust. And building this trust in people around you can help dissipate some of the emotional pain.

<comment><USER91> Wow. That article is from 2009, and it really shows. Giving random compliments to strangers in 2018 is just a really bad idea. Doubly so in any kind of professional environment. Save it for your mate or your dog.

<comment><USER90> its so interesting that you have this opinion. wow!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER92> "We should be more honest about the real tradeoffs between endless wanderlust/adventure-seeking and putting down real roots. The things that make for a great instagram feed or Bumble profile are very different from those of permanence that help us live well." (Friend's comment on article)

Polly's reply is so shameless (including promoting her own book in the reply) that it's incredible just how badly it missed the point.

> _If you want to build a life with a partner, and have a more satisfying > career, and maybe have children, you need to treat yourself like a treasured > child starting today. If you had a daughter who was 35 years old and felt > like all of her traveling and moving was a giant mistake that embodied > everything BAD and shortsighted about her, what would you tell her? You'd > tell her she was wrong. You'd say, "Your life is just beginning!"_

This doesn't help the author and it doesn't help onlookers, either. There is a time window on opportunity. There are _serious_ tradeoffs that need to be pondered when you reach adulthood, and almost none of them are helped with a "you deserve it!" attitude. And there are some things, like travel and careerism, that will not outlive you, like your children will.

<comment><USER93> Frankly I stopped reading the moment the book was mentioned.

It feels off and insincere.

<comment><USER94> I would think the same thing, if the book wasn't relevant to the topic being discussed.

Providing a sincere response, and self-promoting are not mutually exclusive.

It's more like "Hey! I wrote a book on this exact issue. I really hope it helps"

<comment><USER19> The book is relevant to the topic being discussed, because the author talks about it to describe how she herself -- purportedly a successful published author -- has to fight off feeling inadequate, even though she's being paid by her publisher to travel cross-country to promote her book.

Take out the mention that she's on book tour, and you no longer have a frame of reference about her self-shame.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER95> She can write well though.

<comment><USER96> I was going to say this. She mentions her own art and how it has lapsed, but the letter she penned is full of promise when it comes to the art of writing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER97> Not sure it would help her but I can confirm at least one thing: she has a good writing style. That's not a given and proves she doesn't have everything wrong as she sadly seems to think.

</comment><comment><USER98> She's in her mid-30s. It's hard when you are at such a point of despair, but it's not too late to start a career, family, meaningful social activities, etc. Making progress on any of these fronts may seem slow, but it can pretty remarkable how it all adds up when you look back 5 or 10 years later.

</comment><comment><USER99> As long as you don't become an active shooter, criminal, terrorist, serial killer, psychopath, or end up committing suicide, then technically your life was not a waste.

</comment><comment><USER100> Our modern consumer culture infantilizes both sexes and keeps them "young in spirit". This is by design I now realize.

Remember the magic 18-35 demographic? Think about what would happen if the advertising industry could, say, move that out 5 years? 10 years? 15 years? (50 is the new 30!!!).

I'm convinced, either by design or the simple aftereffect of youth worship in America that is what is happening. Consumerism lulls you into a life of minute distractions in empty things, and prevents you from reflecting and appreciating long term / difficult things. AKA having kids.

For men, well, they can sire children pretty late, with some side effects of slight increases to defect rates.

Women? The march of time is brutal on the eggs.

</comment><comment><USER101> The amount of focus a person engaging too much in social media can cause this despair. Not saying it's Instagram's/FB/Tweeter's fault, but comparing yourself hourly to the 'fairy tales' out there can break even the strongest spirit.

In fact comparing yourself to others is quite a double-edged swords with it's highs and lows, and throws your emotional states off-balance.

I had a similar (but much less pronounced) experience in the first couple of years of reading HN. What was I doing? Comparing yourself to all these super- unicorn-entrepreneurs daily was taking it's toll on my appreciation of what I had already accomplished.

All things in balance. Know thyself.

</comment><comment><USER102> What's missing is _meaning_ in life. It provides a sense of purpose, a system of values, and goals to strive for. If it's not family, then I recommend volunteering somewhere. Helping others is incredibly fulfilling and usually works for just about everyone who is in this position.

Also, there are _billions_ of people with far worse lives than you can imagine. Humans just like you and me that live in misery and will never experience a fraction of the freedom that you enjoy. That thought alone should be a sobering realization that your life is not that bad, and it's time to get up and do something.

</comment><comment><USER103> I might have started from the "I'm drinking too much" part and raised that as the most important thing to address. Sometimes it's the result, sure, but more often it's the cause.

</comment><comment><USER104> I dunno. There seems to be many ways to be miserable. The only distinguishing feature of this might be that the possibility of doing it this way is rather new, and more relevant to HN. Suffocating in Podunk, Nowhere is an older thing. I think there is a happy middle ground somewhere, although it's probably individual.

Not that I'd know. I struggle with this exact problem right now, I'm just younger and less extreme.

Anyway, "Merry Go 'Round" by Kacey Musgraves is a great song.

</comment><comment><USER105> I think the actionable part of the advice is the idea of externalizing an emotion and treating it as an object to hold up and examine. Something that is outside of yourself and subject to analysis. To treat a feeling as being something you have, not something you are.

This is a skill and it takes conscious effort to acquire it.

</comment><comment><USER106> Her story is sad. She seems lost, and I do not think she was helped very well by Polly. A lot of people feeling lost nowadays end up on the wrong side of 40 with little to show for it. It is heartbreaking to watch and must be terribly difficult for the families and people involved.

<comment><USER107> what is this obsession with having "something to show for it"? why is it not enough to just be a normal, decent human being?

<comment><USER106> It should be enough. Society puts a heavy burden on all of us to succeed in some way. It is hard to escape it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER108> This is a very common experience. Sooner or later you get out of "survival mode" in your life and start to wonder what's left. I think this used to be called a mid-life crisis.

Speaking generally, I've seen people find their way out of it by making their lives be about something other than themselves. That can mean kids, a community, a cause, or anything that requires setting their ego aside.

I don't think this is a flaw of western culture, as many characterize it. I think our parents and their parents did a poor job preparing this generation for dealing with this because they were rarely prosperous enough to think about more than just survival. That could hit any culture that went through less prosperous times equally.

</comment><comment><USER68> My own view on this is closest to Aristotle, but I will present you (HN readers) the full menu to choose from:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia)

</comment><comment><USER109> I had a similar experience, travelled a lot, many different jobs, changing relationships - but I see myself as a success, would not want to change that experience for anything. In my 40s now with kids and loving wife - <USER5> moving jobs and countries (but with my family this time) I couldn't be happier.

Yes, I had periods of desperations and self-doubts but I would have had those also had I stayed in the same place focussing on the "career ladder". I'm happy I following my urge to see the world and embrace chaotic life.

"Wasted live" is nothing but a question of perspective.

I don't have debt though - that part is indeed worrisome.

</comment><comment><USER91> Advice from a dinosaur: Find a divorced dad who has custody of his kid(s) and is in dire need of help with raising them. Nothing is more meaningful that providing children with a good home to grow up in. Pour her soul into it. Make sure said dad is reasonably good with money, as she clearly is not. Don't be too picky about looks, but make sure it's someone who can basically float her boat. Forsake all others. Then follow grandma's recipe: Keep his stomach full and his balls empty.

Does that sound awful? Does it matter, if it works?

</comment><comment><USER110> A great movie I saw recently that directly deals with the author's situation is Oslo, August 31. Grant it, there's little in the movie that the author would find comforting, but overall I found it to be a very realistic, if harsh, portrait of someone who has misspent a large portion of their adult life and the struggle to correct course.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo,_August_31st](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo,_August_31st)

</comment><comment><USER111> I'm a 29 year TCK who has moved around a lot because I don't actually have a place to call "home". I planned my life around trying to get Permanent Resident status in New Zealand, but now I'm struggling to find a job.

My latest idea is to study a certification. Has anybody done this before, and does it work? Will that help me start a career?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18562295](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18562295)

<comment><USER112> what was your motivation for choosing NZ? I think NZ could be a very lonely place for a newcomer without an ethnic immigrant community. Your best bet is picking up a trade. You'll not find a large enough white collar economy in NZ.

<comment><USER111> Ok, which trade? Is it possible to get a student visa to study that trade? I figured out how to find certifications that are in demand; is there a similar way to find trades that are in demand?

<comment><USER112> Lots of trades in demand in Australia. Not sure about NZ. You can get PR simply by being a bricklayer or panel beater. Not sure if you can without any experience though. Consult a migration agent or lawyer if serious

However if you're a software engineer or IT just do that

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER113> Have you seen the old girl who walks the streets of London, Dirt in her hair and her clothes in rags. She's no time for talking, she just keeps right on walking, Carrying her home in two carrier bags. So how can you tell me you're lonely, And say for you that the sun don't shine. Let me take you by the hand and walk with you the streets of London, Show you something to make you change your mind.

</comment><comment><USER114> She should look at the bright side; at least she's not stuck in an abusive marriage she hastily entered, corrupting a pile of kids in a toxic home.

</comment><comment><USER115> I've been reading Jordan Peterson's 12 rules and see a lot of applicability here, especially "treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping."

<comment><USER116> If I could, I might recommend his self-authoring series to a person like this. I've been working through the prompts lately and this was a first thought as I read the letter, myself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> I feel like there's the other side - the people who were groomed from childhood to pursue one career path (i.e. medicine or law), and end up actually achieving "success" in that field only to feel the exact same way - unfulfilled and feeling like they've wasted their life pursuing something that isn't actually meaningful to them.

</comment><comment><USER117> Looking at something through the lens of 'art' is, to me, a way of avoiding looking critically at the issues and their possible solutions. At the same tike I agree that being ashamed about the situation doesn't help in analysing the issues either.

</comment><comment><USER118> Makes me think about the message of the book

The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now

Meg Jay

which has a nice review here: [https://youtu.be/BeK7QVzSL64](https://youtu.be/BeK7QVzSL64)

</comment><comment><USER119> This was an interesting read. I guess I'll start with the response.

As has been pointed out by others, bringing up the book was a weird humblebrag. It kind of makes me think that Polly chose to answer this particular request for help because it was an opportunity to continue promoting her book, not that it somehow organically happened to fit in with her advice.

Also, it seems like a lot of the response kind of boils down to "nuh-uh!" and "cut it out!" with no shortage of affirmation-esque platitudes. From my personal experience, I have found that line of reasoning to be frustratingly valid only in retrospect for people that have already overcome the bulk of their depression/anxiety/existential dread. It's easy to be prescriptive or reductive when you have some distance from the issue that you're talking about, and that's not necessarily helpful for everybody.

Anyway, as far as Haunted's post goes, I can entirely identify with those feelings.

On my nineteenth birthday I had my house raided (and entirely destroyed) by the gang taskforce of the local pd. This was because in the middle of the night before, my house had been tagged with some gang related graffiti on the side of the house that faced the freeway. I couldn't afford to fix the place after the raid, and had no way of guaranteeing that the people that tagged the house wouldn't continue to do so.

So I had to move with only the clothes I was wearing.

At 20 I had to move overnight because a stalker broke into my mother's house (where I was staying) and tried to choke me to death. When the police arrived, I was almost arrested because the stalker had friends in the department (this individual moonlit as a kind of "high class" cocaine dealer to lawyers and a few judges in the area). Knowing he was certainly going to come back with no consequences, I moved again. This time I was able to carry my laptop and a change of clothes.

At 21, me and my then-girlfriend up and left everything that wouldn't fit in her car so that we could move in with her parents as a way to get her out of prostitution. When we got there, her parents changed their minds and we ended up selling everything including the car in order to get a ride across the state to an office building I knew we could squat in.

At 22, I was summarily kicked out of the living room that I had been crashing in because I told the guy whose house it was that I wasn't comfortable with covering for him every time he stole money from his wife to buy heroin. He kept my laptop and the bag of half my clothes out of spite.

I have since lived in much more stable circumstances, and the last two time I'ved moved, I've kept all of my stuff and relationships! For the first time in my life! That being said, it's made it difficult for me to shake the mindset of "Don't buy it or care about it if you can't take it with you given five minutes' notice." In fact, I don't know if I'll ever be entirely without that feeling rattling around in my head.

If put on the spot, I would have difficulty making a rational argument that my life hasn't been wasted. There objectively exists a number of periods of my life which I have nearly zero to show for. That being said, it's not a line of thought that I regularly entertain. That type of existential despair is simply too easy to wallow in. It's like quicksand. The idea of a ~Meaningful Life~ (and its opposite) is at once way too emotionally weighty and way too easy to mercurially define to be a useful focus for anybody, especially people that are already struggling with other issues.

As for broke, it is a tangibly anxiety-provoking and embarrassing thing. Every little setback (like schools you're applying for asking for surprise paperwork that you can't access, being "mysteriously" rejected by a school wholesale without an interview just for ASKING if they offer financial aid, not being able to afford basic resources to launch a small business, etc.) makes everything seem more and more like there is some sort of cosmic curse at play, or that the world is _actually_ reflecting my personal worth. All I can really do is keep trying, and personally only the tiny victories help with that sort of anxiety. That's just me of course, others might respond to being broke differently.

As for "friendless", the only thing I can think to say to someone who makes that claim is "Are you sure about that?" I recently moved to a tiny town in the middle of nowhere and have yet to make any close friends in the area, but I still have close friends from all around the country that I talk to on a near-daily basis. Group chats are great for this. Whenever I am feeling lonely, I figure that it's on me to reach out.

The friends you"ve moved away from probably miss you as much as you miss them, and while it's not the same as hanging out in person, an extended phone call or a nice text chain full of jokes and news snippets can be a healthy reminder that you haven't just "disappeared".

Sorry this got a bit long, I might've lost and then re-found the thread of my reasoning at some point ;)

Basically, I think it's good that the original author decided to reach out and ask for help, even if the help is from an advice columnist. I would encourage anybody else struggling with these things (like I currently am) to make an effort to do the same in whatever way works for them. Asking for help when needed, and offering it when capable are two of the most satisfying and empowering things a person can do.

Also as stated by many posters, therapy from a good therapist can also be a godsend.

Anyway I'm done rambling for now. If anybody wants to have a friendly chat about depression or isolation etc., feel free to shoot me an email! I am not a professional anything, but I'm pretty friendly and a good listener!

:)

</comment><comment><USER18> Perhaps people of my age were lucky to have had this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQbb3FXSEI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQbb3FXSEI)

<comment><USER18> Full Lyrics:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the class of '99 Wear Sunscreen

If I could offer you only one tip for the future, Sunscreen would be it

The long term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience... I will dispense this advice now...

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth oh nevermind; you will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they have faded

But trust me, in 20 years you'll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked...

You are not as fat as you imagine

Don't worry about the future; or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum

The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind, the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday

Do one thing everyday that scares you

Sing

Don't be reckless with other people's hearts; don't put up with people who are reckless with yours

Floss

Don't waste your time on jealousy; sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind...the race is long, and in the end, it's only with yourself

Remember the compliments you receive, forget the insults, if you succeed in doing this, tell me how

Keep your old love letters, throw away your old bank statements

Stretch

Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life... the most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still don't

Get plenty of calcium

Be kind to your knees, you'll miss them when they're gone

Maybe you'll marry, maybe you won't maybe you'll have children, maybe you won't maybe you'll divorce at 40, maybe you'll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary... what ever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either your choices are half chance, so are everybody else's

Enjoy your body,use it every way you can...don't be afraid of it, or what other people think of it, it's the greatest instrument you'll ever own

Dance...even if you have nowhere to do it but in your own living room

Read the directions, even if you don't follow them

Do NOT read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly

Get to know your parents, you never know when they'll be gone for good Be nice to your siblings, they are the best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future

Understand that friends come and go, but for the precious few you should hold on

Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle, because the older you get the more you need the people you knew when you were young

Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard, live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft

Travel

Accept certain inalienable truths: prices will rise politicians will philander you too will get old, and when you do you'll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable politicians were noble and children respected their elders

Respect your elders

Don't expect anyone else to support you

Maybe you have a trust fund, maybe you have a wealthy spouse, but you never know when either one might run out

Don't mess too much with your hair, or by the time you're 40, it will look 85

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it

Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth

But trust me on the sunscreen

<comment><USER120> I did not know it, but apparently the song(?) was inspired by an article from Chicago Tribune

[https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi- schmich-s...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich- sunscreen-column-column.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER121> Man, she sounds like she hates her life. That truly sucks. My advice is to get to Burning Man. She needs to see another way of defining value in herself and others.

</comment><comment><USER122> This is like every OK Cupid profile I see in SF.

</comment><comment><USER123> This is kind of amazing: finding Buddha in an advice column. Definitely subscribing -- thanks, original poster, for the ref.

</comment><comment> d--b I feel sorry for the person in the article, but it seems curious to me that this reached the top of hacker news...

Am I missing something?

<comment><USER124> The article probably struck a chord with people who either feel the same way as the author of the letter, or can strongly empathize with her feelings.

</comment></comment><comment><USER125> If you are friendless, you should join a speed friending event, something like this www.speedfriending.at

</comment><comment><USER126> Useful of her to mention shame -- it's insidious, and often a quiet and debilitating background.

</comment><comment><USER65> (Edit: see, the internet alone is part of what is wrong with the world. I share that I feel completely alone and miserable and what does the internet do? Downvote. Did you bother to comment negatively or just provide some sort of reason as to why you don't like my comment? Nah, 'here have a downvote' because you're safe and comfortable in your anonymity where you can freely show someone you don't like them because they have a different experience or opinion than you and have decide their worth is less than yours)

I'm broke, friendless and have nothing remotely resembling a meaningful life.

I however have not moved all over the place, I live 15 minutes from my childhood home and spend 90% of my life living in the same 3 blocks.

As far as family I barely have any left. My mother and my half-brother.

The bulk of my social interaction is via emails with one individual. On the occasions they reply, they're very terse due to how busy the individual is. I've met them once, for all of maybe 25 minutes. Other than that I mostly just talk to bun, a purple stuffed anthropomorphic rabbit I've had all but a few weeks of my life. As a child I was only invited to a few birthday partings or outings, as an adult I occasionally get asked why I wasn't at so and so's event 'well, I didn't even know about it...' and I was invited to a wedding of someone I went to school with from kindergarten on a couple of years ago, I was even sat at the head table with her father, with the exception of her insisting on a dance with me not a single person talked to me with the exception of the bartender taking my order. At one point I simple gave up and stood quite literally outside looking in, literally in the shadows outside of the barn the reception was at until the bartender cut me off and my contacts were gone through to find someone to collect me and my car.

The few seemingly like-minded people I've found are famous multi-millionaires and billionaires that live thousands of miles from me that I have effectively zero chance of ever interacting with. Put a gun to my head and I wouldn't be able to begin to tell you how one makes a friend because the only person that believes in any amount is essentially a stranger that I've met once and likely may never meet again.

I don't even know how to talk to people. I'm 33 and I've never actually had anything approximating a proper romantic relationship. I've never had a best friend that I do things with. I've never been part of a group carrying on and having experiences. I've never had to deal with a breakup, or co-habitated, or fought with a romantic partner. I've never had anyone phone me just to see how I was doing. I get a birthday card from corporate and sometimes from my mother when she remembers and that's the extent of my birthday being acknowledged.

The last person I got close to romantically, shot and killed themselves after we'd had 3 proper dates.

At 33 I have a GED and no college degree, I've filed bankruptcy, I've been in the same job for 12 and a half years. I'm one mild financial emergency away from being fucked.

I might as well just be a robot although, if I was a robot I'd probably have more human interaction purely from curiosity in me.

If things don't change professionally, in very drastic ways, I'll work until the day I die. I'm lucking if I can put 2-3 grand into my 401k each year.

While the woman writing to this columnist says she hasn't even the energy to contemplate humanity... that's about all I have going for me. I sit back and think about the nearly 40 gigatons of carbon dioxide we will put into the atmosphere this year, the microplastics in the air we breathe and the water we drink, the myopic and manipulated views of the world technology is giving to the masses, the growing wealth divide. I suppose I have more in common with a hypothetical artificial general intelligence though as I lack most of the experiences humans share in common.

She's 35 and had a cancer scare. My father died of cancer 12 days before my 13th birthday, his mother died before him of cancer, my mother had thyroid cancer which is in remission. Cancer is a highly probable death for me too ma'am.

Oh the drink, I know the drink well. At one point I was drinking as much as a fifth a night just to chase that fleeting escape from reality where everything amuses you. It's a trap ma'am, run from the drink, forsake the drink, the drink is a lie.

She may be a ghost but she isn't alone and to be honest her life experiences sound like quite the upgrade to mine.

Sure, there's people out there with it far worse than us. Simply having electricity and being able to read makes us far better off than many millions. Knowing that doesn't make life any less empty and cold and lonely though.

<comment><USER127> After clicking around your comment history and blog for a bit... I see you grew up and live in Indy -- I did as well until I moved to Chicago earlier this year, and we're around the same age (I'm 30). Some of what you've written definitely reminds me of myself years ago.

My (admittedly incomplete) impression of you is that you seem smart, but that you've got a lot of strong beliefs about things that don't seem to be working that well for you. I'm not sure I have any advice for that, but in my life I've found that my beliefs and values have changed and shifted over time. Usually those changes were started by external circumstances, followed by me choosing to let go of beliefs I was emotionally invested in (definitely not easy).

An example: I used to hold a pretty dim view of people, but I have changed this view over time and now see that most people are a mix of good and bad. The catalyst here was just trying to adjust my belief to be accurate -- people do a lot of good (in addition to the bad), and I couldn't square that with my existing belief that people were basically bad.

Probably the biggest external circumstance that forced me to change many beliefs was getting married, which will probably be unrelatable to you, but I'll try to relate it to you anyways: Getting into a romantic relationship changed my priorities because of the way it made me feel, and how all of a sudden I felt I had someone to really live for and strive to help in a way that I had never even really felt about myself. Things that previously seemed insignificant all of a sudden felt extremely significant. E.g. getting a better job, because I wanted to better provide.

Dating tips? Learn to filter -- go on as many dates as you can and figure out what kind of people you really work with. If you only go on one date every 6 months, you're not going to be able to figure out what it is that you really want in a partner. You might be able to do the same to find platonic friends? I haven't had a group of guys that I hang out with since high school, but my SO fulfills the friendship role mostly, and I'm too busy to even try right now.

<comment><USER65> >I did as well until I moved to Chicago earlier this year,

Go to the SafeHouse restaurant, it's on the magnificent mile!

I finally got to go aboard U-505 in October which had been a dream of mine since going up there when we camped at Dunes state park and then road the train up to the museum in scouts when I was a pre-teen, after I ended up at that restaurant. It's really goofy but was quite a fun experience from entering in a unique way to exiting in a fun way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER128> So, basically this[0] and this[1]. If the author just needed to vent and sympathetic ears, then the columnist's 2000+ words platitude is fine. However, if she really wants out of the situation, then a more pragmatic[2] -- tldr; treat finding a SO like a job; she already professed that she's found no fulfillment on her _current_ job, so might as well -- approach would be more useful.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-gfxjAaZg0) [1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwVRoUxr9pk&t=55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwVRoUxr9pk&t=55) [2] [https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor...](https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=268422490)

</comment><comment><USER129> God, this was a well needed read, feel like this myself often!

</comment><comment><USER130> meh. this doesn't deserve HN visibility IMHO. it's a standard complaint and a standard answer. i give 10% odds that it's a real letter. if it is a real letter, i give 1% odds no literary privileges have been taken, that it's authentic.

OTOH, yeah it is well written, but great editors will do that for you.

</comment><comment><USER131> I'm gonna skip the columnist response, and jump right to "stop getting drunk on alcohol" as step one. Then (re-)watch the episode of "The Good Place" where Chidi becomes a nihilist and makes chili with marshmallow Peeps.

"It could be that the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others." \-- "Mistakes" demotivator, Despair.com

That yawning void in your soul that constantly whispers to you, "your life is meaningless, and nothing you do matters"? That's exactly what connects you with every other human that has ever lived. Most people who start to notice it just cover it up with a concert poster, or a salacious pin-up, or a photo of a sailboat, or a religious icon, just to avoid looking into it, and hearing it, and having all vitality and joy drain away through it.

But it's still there. It's not wrong. Your life really is meaningless, and nothing you do matters.

"Man is born. Man lives. Man dies. And it's all vanity." \-- "Thrills", Cake

There is nothing about your life that had enough inherent value to waste. It just is what it was, the sum of all you were before. And it won't be exactly what you wanted it to be, because of entropy and psychology. You can spackle over the hole with anything that comes to hand, and desperately try to forget it's there, or you can let it remain, droning that high-pitched whine, from all the substance in your life getting sucked out into its vacuum.

A lot of what people do is, in essence, lying to each other, to save one another from that existential torment. Listen to a song on the radio? That's 3 minutes you can't hear the Hole. Watch a movie? That's 90 minutes of not staring into the Hole. Raise a kid? Heck, that's good for almost 20 years. Your Hole isn't any bigger than anyone else's. It has exactly the same amount of nothing in it. No matter what you pour into it, you're never going to fill it up--alcohol, drugs, sex, religion, entertainment, politics; they all get swallowed up in the end. If you accept that it will always be there, no matter what you do, you can slowly acclimate yourself to it. Try it on for size. Tell yourself: "I'm going to die, and everything I am will one day be forgotten."

"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair." \-- "Ozymandias", PB Shelley

So what's the point of living? Why don't we just lie down and never get up again? Why don't we lose ourselves in endless pursuit of cheap thrills and chemical highs? Because that's against the rules of the LARP game many of us play called "Being Grown-Ass Adults in the Real World". Some people do quit, and stop following the rules, and that's their choice. If you want your life to be yours, you'll just have to come up with your own purpose for it. No one is scoring points for being more noble or more visionary. You won't get judged by anyone or anything that matters for aiming too low, or not making enough progress on any given day.

Even if you don't come up with a purpose right away, you can still go through the motions of survival until you do. If you live another day, that still makes you just as good as any other animal. The cat gets it. Suck up to the human just a little bit, and they'll give you food and take away your poop. Suck up to the employer just a little bit, and they'll give you money to buy food and toilet service. If you can love your cat for doing nothing at all you consider important, some other human can certainly love you for the same level of accomplishment. (That is, if being loved is something you actually want.)

You don't have to be what other people want you to be. You don't even have to be what the person you used to be wanted to become. You don't have to live a life of greatness. You don't have to live a life devoid of meaning. The rules only apply to you if you want to play. Nobody else can be you but you, so you might as well get started.

</comment><comment><USER132> gssdg

</comment><comment><USER133> Sounds like she fell between two stools: neither a fulfilling career, nor a family. I guess this is what you would call the modern American dream.

</comment><comment><USER134> What you're reading is an increasingly common outcome for young women without guidance and goals coming from a patriarchal society.

All that which entices young women these days - moving, traveling abroad, working in 'passionate' or artistic fields instead of real ones - <USER6> with moving further away from stable long term relationships, family, and financial security.

And a 3+ year relationship ending dramatically - this is the expected outcome if you don't move to invest in family and create a shared future. God forbid her partner wanted children, a stable life in one location, the security of his partner not going out and acting like a 20-something year old, etc.

But nobody ever dares speak any of this, and while previous generations enforced control, they never explained why, except cryptically through religion. So it's no wonder in secular western societies people just do what they feel, and end up like this.

Now at best this no-longer-young woman will try to reform, change her patterns and behavior, just enough to attract a partner for the latter half of her life. And I'm sure she'll find one, as there are many poor male souls as well who know that a large part of their life and opportunities have passed. But what a sad state of affairs that we glorify and waste our youths, and scramble to pick up the pieces like this.

</comment><comment><USER135> Whatever little you have, whatever unexciting life you've lived, whoever you've become, it has to be enough.

</comment><comment><USER136> The thing that struck me was her age. She's 35. I like to tell people that I went from being young to being old in one birthday. There was something really significant about that birthday for me, that seemed to carry me instantly across the mental threshold from "having all the time in the world" to "you're old now".

Of course, now I'm much older, and think of 35 and even 40 as being young, but I do remember it as being a big deal at the time.

This woman reached that age and freaked out, since she evaluated where she was at in life and decided she was behind. It's definitely an age where you do take stock of your progress. At least it was for me.

</comment><comment><USER137> dated possibly this person. all checks out. if it is her let me tell you this -- she spent the whole 3 years passionately writing livejournal type things with strangers, kept a bunch of "fan" type guys around (you know the type) who shed never consider actually dating but she liked the attention, and I dumped her when I found some flirty shit between them. I dont know if she ever actually cheated but that's already well below who im willing to marry. she defended her position as "just missing making a connection". ok girl whatever I was emotionally and physically available but not a d-list twitter material. I hope it now finally clicks and you also got your eating under control. you still sound like the self-created crisis I left you as.

</comment><comment><USER138> Artists care (actually DOING, not claiming) about creating a body of work, and this person cares only about herself. The author is a hedonist, not an artist. Important difference.

</comment><comment><USER139> >I'm trying, Polly. I am. I'm dating. I'm working out and working hard. Listening to music

Yet she still refuses to lower her standards, apparently.

Empowerment can be a hell of a drug. Hell, she has dozens of articles explaining away personal responsibilit and rationalizing the wretched state of her life[1]. E.g. she has another post captioned "resist the urge to treat friendlessness as a personal failure."

I think we spent too much time teaching our generation to be confident, rather than teaching us to be competent and practical. Heather really has nothing but her own entitlement to blame, and she continues to be obvlivious.

1.[https://www.thecut.com/author/heather- havrilesky/](https://www.thecut.com/author/heather-havrilesky/)

<comment><USER18> > Yet she still refuses to lower her standards, apparently.

How do you know what her standards are?

Heather aka Polly writes advice columns.

The person you quoted is asking Polly for advice.

<comment><USER139> Sorry, glanced through the article a little quickly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER140> I would recommend two things to this woman:

1) declare bankruptcy to get rid of your debts and start over

2) join a religious community, those folks commit much faster!

<comment><USER141> I've been thinking of going to church lately.

I wouldn't call myself a believer necessarily, but I do believe in such things as many people now have dismissed due to utter faith in science. So, I'm not "Christian", but I think the bible is an important book and contains wisdom. If you haven't read Ecclesiastes, I suggest you do. It was written by some old, powerful man (no one really knows who), basically reflecting on his life and imparting wisdom. It's the kind of old testament book that has inspired great leaders for centuries.

Anyways, the idea of a church community really comforts me. I would be open with my own beliefs, and the reason why I'm attending church, and hope to build long-term relationships with those people. I also want to do some good outside of my academic work. When or if I have children, I would want them to attend church with me, with the understanding that they don't have to believe in God in order to gain something very valuable. I want them to grow up in a tangible, physical community of people who have their best interests in mind. Now that "inclusive" churches are more popular, I think I am going to find one.

<comment><USER142> > If you haven't read Ecclesiastes, I suggest you do. It was written by some > old, powerful man (no one really knows who), basically reflecting on his > life and imparting wisdom.

No one knows that it was written by an old, powerful man, either. The _tradition_ is that it was written by King Solomon and contains his parables, and that the framing device of a third-person narrator reflecting on someone else's parable is a rhetorical device, but there are certainly interpretations that, whoever the subject is, the (primary, there are some parts that are generally accepted to come from a different author than the main body) author is (as the framing suggests) a third person narrator, relating wisdom sayings that came from, or at least are attributed to, another source.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER143> Disappointing read. The author was simply ranting and blaming it on their breakups</comment>