What I Learned from Having Steve Jobs Swear at Me - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-i-learned-from-having-steve-jobs-swear-at-me-1538054700 <comment><USER2> Weird take. But here goes. Jobs was a jerk. But -- speaking for myself here and many of my colleagues -- we engineers are, ourselves, a pretty egotistical bunch. And when operating from a place of ego, it's just a lot harder to get great work done. If someone can simultaneously (a) crush your ego while (b) implicitly telling you that you are, in spite of your errors, capable of great work... well, some great things can happen. It no longer becomes an issue about impressing someone (Jobs was notoriously difficult to please) -- it instead becomes a matter of producing excellent work.

But what do I know. I have several friends that worked for jobs directly. And he could in fact be a jerk. I have heard him privately described as needing to piss on things. But as a friend of mine said -- "he almost always was right."

Incidentally, this position I am taking is to some degree a somewhat Zen / Tibetan Buddhist position. That is, that dissolution of the ego is the most important thing for our well-being. And that teachers, but also anyone, really, that challenges us could actually -- if seen from a pretty advanced perspective -- be seen to help us wake up. To quote a zen master, Torei Enji:

"If by any chance such a person should turn against us, become a sworn enemy and abuse and persecute us, we should sincerely bow down with humble language, in reverent belief that he or she is the merciful avatar of Buddha, who uses devices to emancipate us from sinful karma that has been produced and accumulated upon ourselves by our own egoistic delusion and attachment through countless cycles of kalpas."

This is not to say that Jobs was a "Buddha"... but that, perhaps, anyone who challenges us in a tremendous way... may be in a way helping direct us to waking up, being our best "self."

<comment><USER3> > "he almost always was right."

Except when he died of treatable cancer because of his own arrogance and stupidity. Or when he denied paternity of his child.

<comment><USER4> Comments like this can really spoil discussion threads. There's nothing for anyone to learn here, it just panders to people's pre-established positions.

Whether or not his cancer was so easily treatable (experts have written articles disputing this), "arrogance and stupidity" is a rough thing to say about someone facing a life-threatening diagnosis, dealing with all the fear and uncertainty that goes with that, and having to make a call on how best to confront it.

The paternity thing was of course a black mark on his legacy, but he was young, and we just don't know what kind of fears and unresolved issues might have been influencing his behaviour at that stage. Whatever the case, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The whole point of this discussion topic is to take a nuanced view of Jobs' conduct in a particular context. It could do without rage-bait comments like this.

<comment><USER3> I am replying to a comment is basically saying "hey he was a fucked up abuser, but he was right some of the time, and he was rich, so he must have been doing something right, right? "

If we, as a humanity, are to stay on this world long-term, we have to create a society where humanity is more important than success and money. We can't idolize abusers, manipulators and psychopaths because they are successful CEOs.

<comment><USER4> > "basically saying"

Your summary is a gross oversimplification of what was a very thoughtful comment.

Like I said, the comment you replied to, and the original article, are valuable for their nuance. Your replies are deliberately lacking in nuance and therefore derail the discussion.

Nobody is focusing on how "rich" or "successful" he was; in this discussion people are only talking about how he led his company to build many different products that many people care about and find extremely useful.

As you point out, humanity has many important challenges to solve, and in order to solve them we need leaders who can get results.

I can agree with you that it would be ideal if those leaders were good-natured people who treat others well.

Finding the right balance between getting results and treating people well is an important, complex topic that needs to be discussed with care, not drowned in rage.

Edit: For what it's worth, in the past 24 hours I've posted another comment defending people's right to criticise Elon Musk and invoking The Emperor's New Clothes as a demonstration of why it's important to be free to criticise powerful people, no matter how much they claim to be on a mission to "save the world".

So I'm not against criticism of successful people. I just like it to be substantive, and of the kind that promotes interesting discussions and generates valuable new insights.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It frustrates me to no end to see people apologize for the abusive behavior of powerful people. If this engineer can be expected to find a better font, his boss can be expected to express what he found so unacceptable in an actual critique.

<comment><USER6> Yep, apparently harassment, verbal assault and abuse is just seen as yet another management technique these days and engineers will apologize for it, which is a paradox in the era of "safe spaces" and "code of conducts".

<comment><USER5> I really don't think it's a new thing. If anything, it's less acceptable than ever. Even in the military, I think they've toned it down from the Full Metal Jacket-style abuse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I was at Apple, I once heard Steve describe his roll within the company as "hire the best people and say 'no' a lot". Also, behind closed doors, Steve swore _a LOT_. In other words, him calling something "dog shit" was not at all an unusual or unexpected utterance. I think if your only experience of him is the "Steve"-notes and press interviews, then this story probably comes across a bit differently than it did in reality for Ken.

</comment><comment><USER8> [http://archive.is/Ppep1](http://archive.is/Ppep1)

</comment><comment><USER9> This article is a little incoherent TBH.

How is debasing someone's work a more effective way of motivating better future work than simply explaining clearly what you need improved?

Angry words are necessarily going to come across as personal no matter how much you want them to mean something else.

<comment><USER10> In my opinion, anger is an excellent short-term motivator. Jobs probably wanted something done that day or that week and had to get pissed to motivate everyone to work extra hours to get it done. It certainly does come with a long-term price though of people thinking you're a jerk and burning out on your anger.

So, it depends on what your goals are. But, if you don't mind burning through staff and relationships, getting pissed will probably get you more short-term bang for your buck than being kind and calm.

<comment><USER11> > Jobs probably wanted something done that day or that week and had to get > pissed to motivate everyone..

That's possible, but I think "Jobs got angry because he angered easily, regardless of whether it was necessary to motivate people" would be the more parsimonious explanation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> For anyone who's curious, here's the best video I've found that breaks apart the idea of an "asshole": [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog)

Essentially, people can be dicks and non-dicks, while simultaneously being givers or takers. Nobody likes a taker, even if they're nice, because that person doesn't help one grow. On the other hand, someone can be a real dick, but in a "giving" way that helps achieve a better outcome for both individuals.

In the case of Jobs, one could argue that his personality was justified not only because great work came out of it, but also because the people doing that work became the best version of themselves in the process. If someone is capable of great work and they produce good work, there's a certain kindness to telling them that's not acceptable. But saying the exact same thing to someone who's less capable can be mean.

</comment><comment><USER13> _Imagine that your boss told you straight to your face that your project is "dog shit." Next, imagine that this boss is Steve Jobs. That's what happened to me when I was working as the principal engineer of iPhone software during Apple's golden years.

What was the right way for me to react? It would have been a bad idea for me to agree with Steve, raising the question of why I would offer him inferior work. But it would have done no good to disagree either, unless I was willing to enter into an on-the-spot debate with a famously mercurial CEO—and at that moment, I wasn't._

The answer is easy. Immediately tell your boss that he is using inappropriate language, stop the conversation, and report him to HR. I'm pretty sure this is what Apple's official policy for this sort of situations tells you to do.

<comment> the-dude You seem to assume HR is there for you ( it is not ).

<comment><USER14> If you fear that HR will not take your side than bring it up with your union.

<comment><USER15> What union?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> These stories about Jobs often describe him as an oracle. He clearly helped produced uniquely excellent products (just by virtue of their success), but was he ever the ideator? Or was his main gift sifting great work from everything else?

<comment><USER17> He copied, refined, and simplified, with a rare sense of taste that was often missing in the original projects. (E.g. Xerox Star vs Mac. The Star was a much better computer, the Mac was a much better consumer product.)

He was also an abusive narcissist. The narcissistic drive to be visibly superior to other people was a core motivation for him.

Someone less driven - or possibly damaged - wouldn't have been nearly as passionate about the end result.

It's an open question if it's possible to do insanely great work without any dysfunction at all. Narcissistic abuse and management-as-ego-boost is such a common thing in US (and US influenced) business culture that it's almost impossible to imagine a corporate culture with no trace of it.

I have a suspicion that a more easy-going culture would be better in some ways, especially with humane long-term strategy, but might lack some colour.

It would be good to find out one day if the trade-off is acceptable. (It might well be, depending on your strategy horizon.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> There's an important difference between criticizing a person and criticizing someone's work. The work can be iterated on and improved through additional effort. If your criticism comes off as being directed at the person it can have very demotivational effects. Also, not everyone is looking out for the subtlety of where the criticism is directed. So it's best to make the distinction clear.

</comment><comment><USER19> I wonder if Steve was still around if he'd be softening up some?

<comment><USER20> His style of management got him success which he envisioned, why would he change it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> "What I Learned From Having Steve Jobs Sh!tting on Me"

Another apple employee

</comment><comment><USER22> [https://outline.com/jaDXPP](https://outline.com/jaDXPP)

</comment><comment><USER23> Bad spin.

By saying "Jobs did it, but it's kind of ok", the author is giving license to every self-styled Jobs wannabe that thinks they are headed for greatness.

Jerks should be called out as jerks, no matter how much success or failure they have had. Success and decency as a human being are orthogonal.

</comment><comment><USER24> Trauma bonding:

 _A psychologically abusive relationship is a rollercoaster, with punishment and then intermittent reinforcement of kindness when you "behave." This means the body is going through its own turmoil, with high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, paired with dopamine when given affection as a reward._

[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/trauma-bonding- abus...](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/trauma-bonding-abusive- relationships-why-people-stay-domestic-violence-addiction- partners-a7940686.html)

</comment><comment><USER20> When i first worked in Finland for a very successful mobile game development company, the project manager told me, whatever you are working on is complete shit, we can't afford you to be wasting our money on this. Every single minute you spend in arguing for your idea is paid by us which is true.

After that i got a blow to my ego and started doing what manager told me to. Looking back, i was really wasting their money and once i got blow to my ego, my productivity drastically increased.

I used to be fast learning workholic and yes, i need constant blows to my ego to prevent me from derailing myself into oblivion. So, i would have respect Steve jobs, if he would have been asshole to me.

Edit: I simply detailed my personal experience, so I don't understand your downvotes.

<comment><USER25> Rovio was/is a special case for bizarre management.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I am a masocist, i wouldn't be in development getting insulted by a lifeless computer everyday if i was normal.

Anyone who insults me and motivates to offer my best, gets my respect and best work. Heck, i would work for more hours if you can offer me such cortisol+dopamine effect which comes from such treatment.

Think about this. Who struggles with a lifeless computer when they only get the sufferings and frustration which comes with it?

Swearing at me is the least you could do to provoke any response.

I like Steve Jobs and I've yet to find the CEOs who are like him. This is probably why there is no other apple.</comment>


Fortnite addiction and parenting in the age of screens - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/PlayNiceInst/status/1070750717671919616 <comment><USER2> > For parents sick of hearing "Almost done. One last game": What's worked for > us: (1) Don't freak, they're not addicted (the pathologizing of gaming may > do more harm than the games themselves) (2) set a timer & provide consistent > consequences (without anger) when they go over..13/N

On a semi-related note. When I was a kid my parents used to make us quit our gaming session with little to no warning. This wasn't a big issue with single player games because they can be saved/paused, but that's obviously not possible with online multiplayer games. Unfortunately, that didn't matter to them, and it resulted in many interrupted gaming sessions and unnecessary consequences and behavioral issues from me and my siblings.

Now that I'm a parent, I've made a promise to my kids that I will _always_ let them finish their current game before kicking them off. If they start a new game after they've been given the _last game warning_ , then there's consequences. They know this, and we rarely have any issues related to behavior and gaming.

<comment><USER3> >This wasn't a big issue with single player games because they can be saved/paused

"I need to get to a save room!"

"You can pause it."

 _5 minutes later_

"I unplugged the gamecube because you weren't playing anymore."

...

<comment><USER4> Sounds like an excerpt from Bojack Horseman

<comment><USER5> You're right! I can definitely read it and hear an exchange between Todd and BoJack.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have 4 kids and they're all video game nerds. As the paternal geek myself I stood out in the rain last night so they can buy Smash Bros. Ultimate.

That being said, I have a simple approach that seems to work. They need to do something productive to earn playing time. That can be chores, homework, reading a book, a personal project, whatever. I also do a device-free day (usually Monday). The end result is they all get good grades and the encouragement to pursue other hobbies that enable their creative side.

<comment><USER7> IMO, framing video games as a treat that has to be earned is likely the best parenting option surrounding video games.

<comment><USER8> Would you say the same for regular physical playtime? Or would you let your kids go outside and play/socialize anytime, as long as they had nothing else of more immediate importance? Why would video games be different?

<comment><USER9> Those are activities are much healthier uses of time. Video games suck up a lot of time with zero or negative physical benefits and low mental benefits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Step 1: Setup a pihole ([https://pi-hole.net/](https://pi-hole.net/))

Step 2: Configure home router to send _all_ port 53 (DNS traffic) to the pihole

Step 3: Run cronjob on the pihole to disable fortnite completely at whatever times you want, e.g., turn off access every week night at 7:30pm, then back on overnight:

30 19 * * 0-4 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_on >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_on.log 2>&1

0 1 * * 1-5 /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/turn_blacklist_off >> /home/pi/pihole_timed_lists/log/turn_blocklist_off.log 2>&1

The turn_blacklist_on script can be as simple as:

/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com

And then the turn blacklist off can be:

/usr/local/bin/pihole --wild -d epicgames.com easy.ac easyanticheat.net xboxlive.com microsoft.com

Works like a charm, and handles PC + XBox access. Kids know it stops dead at 7:30, so no arguments.

[edited for spelling]

<comment><USER11> Until they get a winning game ruined by a sudden net cutoff. Although that's probably not a big issue with Fortnite since expected game lengths should be fairly predictable (average seems to be 20-25 mins from what I've found) due to the encroaching wall thing. Would be cool though if it could recognize an ongoing game and cut off the connection only after the game is finished.

<comment><USER12> This should not cut off ongoing games, except maybe if the anticheat was implemented by morons.

I'm not sure it it'd even very reliably stop you from starting a new game, but I guess it probably works well enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I never liked the description of gaming as addictive, especially multiplayer games — I think its more of a special case of socialization with certain properties that naturally lend to poor outcomes

Its really not that difficult to spend 8 hours talking to a group of friends, especially when an activity is involved (book clubs, board game nights, hanging out, etc). There are two major limitations: external responsibilities break up the group, and eventually you get bored of the people/activity. An extra one that appears in things like sports is that you eventually get tired. If you didn't, you could probably find groups playing soccer for a week straight and still enjoying it...

External responsibilities don't really exist in any major form for kids.

Getting bored of a group of people in multiplayer games is trivially fixed: there's almost no cost to finding another group, or having multiple simultaneously.

Getting physically tired doesn't occur quickly with games: after about 5-8 hours my eyes/head start to hurt, but I'm a-ok after a night's rest. Any weak member of your group is trivially replaced by point #2.

So the fatal flaw is the activity... and ofc thats where games have always optimized for — remaining engaging over long durations. But all hobbies naturally optimize for this (else they wouldn't really be hobbies!)

Which all leads to it being really easy to stay on a game all day long, without being "addicted" to it.

At least, that was my experience. Put some 1k hrs into league of legends per year when I was younger... but the day I dropped it, I dropped it without a second's hesitation. No withdrawal or anything, I was simply finished with it (half the reason I played it so much is that I had few RL friends, so activity-wise I didn't have anything better to do, and socialization-wise, that was where all my friends were).

I think the common case is very similar to friends made over sports, but video games have properties that lend themselves to addiction-like behavior without actually creating an actual dependency.

</comment><comment><USER14> My 10yo and 6yo rarely get screen time and when they do it's for something productive and not mind numbing like gaming or Youtube. Every day that goes by with them being relatively screen-free is a win in my book. They get to be kids - lots of activity outside the house and lots of creativity inside, music, acting, painting. It's hard though as most of their classmates are screen zombies. I just don't understand how most parents don't see this so clearly.

<comment><USER2> As a parent, I've never understood this sentiment. Gaming is just another "activity" and to say it's "mind numbing" and not productive is disingenuous. Sure, it _can be_ depending on the game, but so can acting and painting and any other activities that kids do.

<comment><USER15> Are you a gamer? I play PUBG, I used to play other games. Multiplayer online Games with a competitive aspect trigger my buttons. They can be very rewarding. They provide a constant release of dopamine.

I can't think of any other activity that comes close to gaming in that regard. Most stuff gets boring after a while. Sure, you can dive in a book and come back two days later when it's finished. But after doing this a couple times, it gets boring rather quickly.

With gaming, especially never ending competitive online games, one can easily sink hundreds or thousands of hours.

So, as a gamer being honest with myself: I will restrict video game time and media consumption of my kids, because they don't know yet how to deal with these immense dopamine triggers.

<comment><USER16> Agreed. In another comment, someone points out that LoL/Dota2 require a lot of dedication and metagame analysis to be good.

Which is true, but doesn't change the fact that I look back at all gaming I did as a massive waste of time, wishing I spent even 10% of that time doing anything else. And even in my early 20s, I couldn't get out of that "just one more game" compulsion many nights and it would impact my work performance and social life. Not really something I want for my children.

I'm in my 30s now and have healthy hobbies again like language learning, reading, and drawing.

I have a feeling a lot of these "gaming are no different than reading or playing a sport" are from young HN gamers. I would've argued the same thing when I was a kid. Not til later did I start wanting to live my life to maximize my sense of fulfillment and minimize regret, and I have a hard time believing gaming does that for anyone.

<comment><USER17> I realize it on and off. I go through periods where I binge games (I've always been a handheld fan, so 3DS and now Switch) and then I won't play for weeks, while I do other hobbies. I definitely notice a vast difference between when I'm playing games and when I'm not. When playing, I just want to do one more, one more, and even see the game in my head when not playing, or think about metastrategy. Thankfully, it hasn't impacted my life, but I definitely don't want any kids I might have dealing with that until they're able...Though I'll definitely introduce them to games, just keep it limited.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Would like to have written this game. My kid is completely 'in' Fortnite. Going to full-day (bilingual) school next year just to make sure he has something better to do every afternoon than playing.

<comment><USER14> I'm not trying to be a troll, but really - how are you ok with this as a parent? Why are you allowing this?

<comment><USER18> We don't enforce strict limits, we do limit the daily exposure but this is a bit difficult when all other friends are also in Fortniteland and nobody is available to play soccer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's not terribly clear to what the person is responding. What set this off?

> (2) set a timer & provide consistent consequences (without anger) when they > go over..13/N

I think this has been effective, w/my kids at least.

<comment><USER20> its very effective an it teach a bit of responsability, my kids are still very young and only have access to a switch and each have a 30 min timer (can be set on the switch parental control app) that just rings to let them know, but as they have to share and want to play uninterrupted they plan their day for that meaning when they grab the switch now days they make sure im not going to ask for anything becouse all thir daily routines are done.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Blaming social ills on poor parenting does absolutely nothing to help matters and is thinly-veiled classism. Only well-off people can afford to raise their kids as well as is expected of them.

<comment><USER22> The article recommends using a timer to limit Fortnite. Assuming the family in question can afford a computer and internet connection, a timer hardly seems a reach, cost wise.

Can you connect that to your points affordability, expectations, or classism for me?

<comment><USER23> There isn't just the cost of a timer, there's also the time and effort that needs to be spent policing your child's screen time. Many families don't have a parent around the house a lot of the time.

<comment><USER22> It seems like we're all agreed that unmonitored, free-for-all access for kids onto computers or phones is risky and potentially unhealthy.

Where I am confused is - what might make that hard to govern?

I fully appreciate that the tools 20-30 years ago were not where they are today. But now?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> My kids get to use the internet from 6am to 7:30. Google wifi automatically turns it on and off.

They need to be completely ready for school before they can play otherwise they dont get to play the next day.

This has resulted in

1) I never have to wake them up or tell them to get ready

2) they go to bed early at night on their own so they can get up early to play.

They are 11 and 6.

<comment> Fire-Dragon-DoL Lol! That's amazing, good job!

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I want to conduct scientific studies on the quality of parenting and the likeliness of said parent to complain about [violence in video games, ant- vaccinations, etc.].

If it finds correlation, then this study motivates people to not complain about these repeatedly disproven parenting pitfalls, because complaining would make you "more likely" to be a bad parent.

<comment><USER26> Please do that study.

Although you could show a negative or positive correlation. Maybe your study shows that the best parents complain about video games. Maybe it shows nothing.

We won't know until you share the outcome. I think it will be cool to know.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> this looks like a paid article from some involved party, saying calling it addiction is too much as there is no data backing it up triggers a lot of alarms to me as Gaming addiction is now officially recognized as mental health disorder by the World Health Organization.

<comment><USER27> The article is threading a needle, saying that games aren't bad, but parents who let kids play games too much are bad.

As someone who knows some Fortnite-playing kids, I'll say that even if it isn't creating murderers, it is teaching obnoxious behaviors like those taunt- dances and (offline) playing pretend-war in the faces of people who aren't interested.

An avid Fortine-playing 9 yr-old tends to be more annoying in person than a 2-D sidescroller player or even a Minecraft player.

<comment><USER28> Maybe the annoying kids just like Fortnite more and the less annoying kids are prone to Minecraft?

<comment><USER29> Or the pace amd style of the game encourages annoying traits, or at least makes them seem more normal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Am I the only one who thinks that threader usually makes these harder to read? It's really obvious that this text wasn't intended to be consumed in this format.

<comment><USER30> We changed to the Twitter URL from [https://threader.app/thread/1070750717671919616](https://threader.app/thread/1070750717671919616).

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Really.. They had to make the entire article a hyperlink to the tweet?

<comment><USER27> Threader is an app that converts a long series of tweets into one page. It's a vast improvement over reading on Twitter.

The link is a credit to the source.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I must say: I don't think I could, without shame, say that it's somebody else's fault when a piece of software on a computer I gave my own child consumes their attention.

If your kids spend too much time playing Fortnite, stop them from playing it so much.</comment>


Any sci-fi about the future of work? - <AUTHOR> "The Profession" by Isaac Asimov is one of a few. Some works of Lukyanenko such as Genome. Anything else? <comment><USER2> Daemon is arguably sci-fi about the future of work. (I haven't read the sequel yet, but from what I hear, it fits better into that category.)

Charlie Stross's Halting State & Rule 34 could be slotted into that category as well, although they can be slotted into a lot of categories: Halting State is very much about the interaction between augmented reality, trends police groupware & management policies, the gig economy as it applies to telepresence & taxi services, & the emergence of a deep state in the west; meanwhile, Rule 34 interlaces the history of anti-spam movements with AI, sexual politics, and biohacking movements.

</comment><comment><USER3> "Manna", [http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm](http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm)</comment>


Introducing DNS Resolver for Tor - <AUTHOR> https://blog.cloudflare.com/welcome-hidden-resolver/ <comment><USER2> In a big company blog post like this, I wish they'd call them onion services instead of hidden services, especially since they are even using a v3 onion service.

Also, curious if they wrote any code to support this since OnionBalance doesn't support v3 yet. I know they use Go a lot and I wrote a Tor control client myself recently [0].

0 - [https://github.com/cretz/bine](https://github.com/cretz/bine)

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the heads up, should be fixed now.

I knew Tor Project has been shifting away from "hidden services" for a while but I missed the email where teor clarified things for blog posts and such in late April [0]. Also, I wanted to avoid using "onion resolver" as it would be a worse misnomer than "hidden resolver."

Re. OnionBalance: we're working on a few ideas for this, but nothing conclusive yet.

0\. [https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor- dev/2018-April/01...](https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor- dev/2018-April/013104.html)

<comment><USER4> > I knew Tor Project has been shifting away from "hidden services" for a while

I read the article after your correction, and on reading the `What are Tor onion services?` section, I thought "How nice, they're using the new terminology to go with the new v3 service address".

But then, just below, I saw the [https://blog.cloudflare.com/content/images/2018/05/image_3.p...](https://blog.cloudflare.com/content/images/2018/05/image_3.png) diagram still mention "hidden service" and thought "an old image slipped thru, tho" :)

Also, wouldn't a "1111dns4tor" prefix look better? :)

<comment><USER5> > Also, wouldn't a "1111dns4tor" prefix look better? :)

Yes, it would but the .onion addresses use base32 and '1' isn't in the alphabet used: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base32](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base32)

<comment><USER6> You could have done IIIIdns4tor :)

<comment><USER2> It would be iiiidns4tor because, while base-32 is commonly implemented with capital letters, the onion service ID is lower cased.

<comment><USER3> Also, farming an onion with that many fixed characters takes a good few hundreds or thousands of years.

<comment><USER7> This is a v3 onion service, it should be easier to find prefixes, plus CF (and other companies like FB) have done pretty long prefixes via brute force (they have a lot of computers)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> As I said in the earlier duplicate post [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17238365](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17238365)

> That makes privacy worse than the default setup with Tor since there's no > stream isolation. With the standard Tor Browser you get a different circuit > for each first-party domain, that's not something you'd have with this.

<comment><USER2> So in the Tor browser, DNS resolution for non-onion addresses creates a new circuit each time? (not sarcasm, I really don't know) Because I consider this new onion service (aka a front for 220.127.116.11) to be a single first-party domain. How is this any worse than contacting any other onion service repeatedly? Or are you arguing they should provide a rotating list of onion addresses for this service?

<comment><USER8> > So in the Tor browser, DNS resolution for non-onion addresses creates a new > circuit each time?

You can try it for yourself, open a tab in the Tor Browser with foo1.com, look at the circuit in the Torbutton. Then open another tab with foo2.com, look at the circuit and compare it with the earlier one.

<comment><USER2> The DNS resolution is done by the exit node. Once you go to foo1.com or foo2.com after the resolution you are still going to separate IPs and subject to the same benefits. There's really nothing to compare this CloudFlare service to except just like an HTTP API as an onion service (or bind or whatever).

There is safety in numbers accessing the CloudFlare service. It helps reduce traffic analysis attacks that could otherwise occur on exit nodes and the exit node's possible-non-authoritative resolver. Because correlation between the circuit to CloudFlare's resolution and the exit node's site access is a bit harder. Granted once you enter the HTTP world and ask that second level domain to start the TLS handshake, they can see where you're going anyways so it might not matter. But it can prevent you from being poisoned by the exit node's DNS resolver. It just removes one layer of trust away from the exit node.

<comment><USER8> Let's say you set this up with the Tor Browser, all your DNS resolutions are done using this onion, then they're all linkable--whereas with the default they're unlinkable since two different circuits were used for different first- party domains. That's the point.

<comment><USER2> Right, if you don't trust CloudFlare or you think there is a flaw in Tor. Let's say you didn't set this up, the exit node can lie about the DNS resolution. Granted, to your point, unless I was worried about exit nodes, I probably would want my resolution on the same circuit/session as my access.

<comment><USER9> I don't think there's any reason you can't have both: for each site have a new circuit, and make a connection for that DNS resolution only, on that circuit or a separate one, using Cloudflare.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> >Still, the exceptionally privacy-conscious folks might not want to reveal their IP address to the resolver at all, and we respect that.

Who was it again that puts ReCAPTCHA on so many popular websites when using Tor, which could be used for traffic correlation? Oh. Cloudflare.

Ref: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12122268](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12122268)

<comment><USER5> And who was it that worked with researchers on Privacy Pass to provide anonymous access for web users? Oh. Cloudflare. [1]

And who was it that changed their algorithm for handling TorBrowser traffic so that there's no need to show those CAPTCHAs? Oh. Cloudflare.

And who was it that gave our customers control over how Tor traffic is handled? Oh. Cloudflare. [2]

[1] [https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy- pass...](https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-supports-privacy-pass/) [2] [https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en- us/articles/203306930-D...](https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en- us/articles/203306930-Does-Cloudflare-block-Tor-)

<comment><USER11> (For those of you who missed it. parent poster @jgrahamc is CTO of Cloudflare. )

Don't get too snarky, John. Thanks for working with the Tor community, but haters gonna hate.

<comment><USER12> I think changing "And who was it that" in every sentence to "We" and removing "? Oh. Cloudflare." automatically would remove the _snarkiness_.

<comment><USER7> I think "We did" would be better, especially when you play the appropriate The Simpson's song in the background...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> dnscrypt-proxy is compatible with Cloudflare and now has built-in support for Tor.

Just add `proxy = "socks5://127.0.0.1:9050"` to the configuration file.

<comment><USER14> I just wanted to thank you for dnscrypt-proxy. I had seen it mentioned in another post so I had it saved in an open tab for later. Seeing it mentioned here again prompted me to actually install it. Very much worth the ~5 minutes it took to get it up and running!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I... get the idea, and support it. I don't understand the implementation.

What is the point of creating an onion address and then publicizing it? Why not just use Tor to get to 126.96.36.199 in the first place? Onion URLs are for services that don't want to reveal themselves.

Basically, what does this enable that generic Tor does not?

<comment><USER16> > Basically, what does this enable that generic Tor does not?

End-to-end encryption. If you query 126.96.36.199 over Tor then exit nodes can diddle with your traffic.

<comment><USER17> If you're using DNSSEC then they can't mess with your DNS either. However, it is very readable by the exit node - just like Host header in HTTP or server_name in TLS.

<comment><USER18> Sure they can. Virtually nothing is DNSSEC-signed. And if you're using someone else's DNSSEC server, and not running your own server on your own machine, the link between you and your DNS server is completely unprotected.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Strange to see a company which deems a bunch of unpopular idiot white supremacist trolls to be too extreme of speech supporting a network which has allowed child pornography to flourish online at a scale never before seen. Bold move.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is the log policy for this onion and 188.8.131.52 exactly the same?

<comment><USER5> First sentence of the second paragraph: "As it was mentioned in the original blog post, our policy is to never, ever write client IP addresses to disk and wipe all logs within 24 hours. "

So, yes.

<comment><USER20> Thanks for confirming, suspicion is a must when it comes to onions. I'm already testing it, works like a charm.

socat TCP4-LISTEN:853,bind=localhost,reuseaddr,fork SOCKS4A:localhost:dns4torpnlfs2ifuz2s2yf3fc7rdmsbhm6rw75euj35pac6ap25zgqad.onion:853,socksport=9050

openssl s_client -showcerts -crlf -connect localhost:853

getdns_query 1dot1dot1dot1.cloudflare-dns.com 127.0.0.1@853

forward-addr: 127.0.0.1@853#tor.cloudflare-dns.com

<comment><USER21> for the love of god. if you care about privacy...dont use this you are crippling the stream decoupling of the tor browser...how can you not get this? Its so obviously a stupid idea.

<comment><USER20> I'm well aware of what this does, and I have zero intentions to set it inside the tor browser.

CloudFlare is only _ONE OF THE MANY_ upstream recursive resolvers I use to protect the queries for my _CLEARNET_ traffic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Why is the URL so long? Weren't .onion domains about 16 characters long? Compare with Facebook's hidden service:

        facebookcorewwwi.onion
        dns4torpnlfs2ifuz2s2yf3fc7rdmsbhm6rw75euj35pac6ap25zgqad.onion

Also, how does that website have SSL? Are there Certificate Authorities that can supply certificates for .onion domains now? CloudFlare did the same trick for [https://188.8.131.52](https://22.214.171.124) too so perhaps they are just able to do things most people can't.

<comment><USER23> Tor moved to a longer address space because the short one is 1024 bit RSA

<comment><USER2> To be even clearer, v2 service names are just a part of the RSA key hash whereas v3 service names are a full ed25519 pub key and a couple of other bytes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Any update on some distributed names resolution for tor? At some point there seemed to be a chance for namecoin to handle this.

</comment><comment><USER25> Could someone explain the rainbow theme? And why that onion URL has is a psychedelic gif?

<comment><USER5> We used the same theme on the underlying 184.108.40.206 resolver: [https://blog.cloudflare.com/announcing-1111/](https://blog.cloudflare.com/announcing-1111/) I'll ask the designers why.

EDIT: and she said: "We had this very mysterious 220.127.116.11 white on black theme when we were just sort of trying to build hype guerilla-style and then once the announcement was made we flipped it into the colorful "here it is, it's great!" Sort of thing"

<comment><USER25> Thank you. I am specifically wondering if there's a technical reason that URL is repeated twice. Once as a hyperlink, and once as that gif. Or if it's just for fun.

Thanks for these services and your work generally at Cloudflare.</comment></comment></comment>


Buku v2.7 – Powerful command-line bookmark manager adds many new features - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/jarun/Buku/releases/tag/v2.7 <comment><AUTHOR> Buku on GitHub: [https://github.com/jarun/Buku](https://github.com/jarun/Buku)

Features at a glance:

\</comment><comment>-

\- Add, open, tag, comment on, update, remove, shorten URLs

\- Fetch page title from web, refresh all titles in a go

\- Multiple search options, continuous search at prompt

\- Portable, merge-able database to sync between systems

\- Import/export in Markdown or HTML (FF, Chrome compatible)

\- Open (multiple) search results directly in default browser

\- Manual password protection using AES256 encryption

\- Completion scripts (Bash, Fish, Zsh), man page with examples

\- Several options for power users (see help or man page)

\- Fast and clean interface, distinct symbols for record fields

\- Minimal dependencies

<comment><USER2> does it have an indexing text feature?</comment></comment>


CoreOS launches Tectonic 1.7.1 with support for Microsoft Azure cloud - <AUTHOR> https://coreos.com/blog/announcing-tectonic-1.7.1 <comment><AUTHOR> I want to thank Microsoft and all of our beta testers who helped get this release out the door enabling Azure, Network Policy via Calico, Prometheus application monitoring and a number of other features. Also, I want to thank the Terraform community who has been gracious in helping merge our PRs and debug issues as we worked on the Tectonic Installer[1] to support this release.

Another important feature of this release is automated updates from Kubernetes 1.6 to Kubernetes 1.7 which works across the various platforms Tectonic supports. This is all part of CoreOS's mission to ensure people can easily run the latest most secure software in their environment.

Let us know if you have any questions!

[1] [https://github.com/coreos/tectonic- installer](https://github.com/coreos/tectonic-installer)</comment>


Smalltalk, Scanning and S^HControl Structures - <AUTHOR> http://www.mirandabanda.org/cogblog/2017/02/07/smalltalk-scanning-and-shcontrol-structures/ <comment><USER2> Makes the front page of HN, and not a single comment. I guess smalltalk is even less of a spring chicken than forth:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13594526](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13594526)

</comment><comment><USER3> Over the years, Eliot Miranda has been quietly working on some very impressive improvements to Cog. Very heartening to see the progress!

Big thank you to Eliot!</comment>


Ask HN: Key feature missing from Google Analytics - <AUTHOR> I am doing some market research and was wondering if there is one (or multiple) key feature(s) missing from Google Analytics that, if available anywhere else, would make you switch to that product. If you've been through the process of switching from Google Analytics, can you share your experience with the new product? <comment><USER2> I want something with less evil.</comment>


Jianruiying, the Special Forces of the Qing Dynasty - <AUTHOR> https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/jianruiying-introduction <comment><USER2> BTW the portraits near the end were painted by a Jesuit priest in the court of Qianlong named Giuseppe Castiglione.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Castiglione_(Jesuit_p...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Castiglione_\(Jesuit_painter\))

His works is a blending of both European and Chinese techniques.

</comment><comment><USER3> _What was expected to become a quick and decisive victory for the otherwise highly effective Qing army, ended in a stalemate._

This was a constant theme throughout Chinese dynastic history -- leaders at the provincial or national level underestimating the military capabilities of tribal peoples/"barbarians," rebels, and smaller tributary states. The preceding Ming dynasty is littered with similar examples involving Japanese- led pirate bands on the coast and tribal groups to the north and west. The 15th-century Zhengtong Emperor decided to take part in crushing one border flare-up with the Mongols, and was even captured. The dynasty itself was ended by Manchu invaders in the mid-1600s.

I don't believe the Ming ever trained a distinct/elite group of special forces as described in TFA, but innovative and effective generals were sometimes given special commands and employed new modes of training and tactics but using regular conscripted forces. The aforementioned Japanese-led pirates raiding the coast were vanquished in this way.

I recommend _1587, A Year of No Significance: The Ming Dynasty in Decline_ by Ray Huang (a historian and former military officer) for anyone who is interested in this topic.

<comment><USER2> But that's not a problem unique to China. Historically people from stronger/wealthier nations have underestimated others in poorer nations, especially when the poorer country is on the defense. Mongols vs. Vietnam, UK vs. Maori, Japan vs. China (China took a beating but Japan thought they can win the war in 4 months and China's strategy did win out in the end at great cost.), Chinese nationalist vs. Chinese communists, France vs. Vietnam, US vs. Vietnam, China vs. Vietnam, USSR vs. Afghanistan, etc.

<comment><USER4> Japan versus China? Do people really consider China to have won that one? I always thought they mostly made it out due to the US defeating Japan.

<comment><USER5> China was not yet defeated and was slowly retaking territory, but of course Japan's unconditional surrender made everything much easier. HistoryLapse has a pretty good article on that last stage of the Second Sino-Japanese War: [https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the- second-s...](https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the-second-sino- japanese-war)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I always find certain weapons like the hook sword shown at the bottom to be interesting as they don't show up in other cultures, although the straight sword is pretty much available across the globe. Did it excel in some manner for the threats in China that were less relevant elsewhere? Maybe better armor in the west would have made it less relevant?

<comment><USER7> Curved swords are quite common in Persian, Indian, Chinese, and Japanese cultures. They're not exclusively Chinese.

<comment><USER8> I guess the OP meant this hook sword

[https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/chinese-hook- sword](https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item/chinese-hook-sword)

It does have a strange shape, and indeed I don't think I saw anything similar in other cultures.

<comment><USER7> Ah, that makes more sense. I was looking for a sword "near the bottom" of the article itself and saw just the curved sword; the hook sword was past the end.

<comment><USER6> Ah, I shouldn't been more descriptive lol

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The article says the emperor compared his soldiers to the Solon cavalry. Does anyone know who/what that refers to? A quick Google search did not turn up anything.

<comment><USER10> From internal evidence from the article, they were also a people inside the Chinese empire. Nothing to do with the Greek Solon :-)

<comment><USER11> Yes, the Solon were a subtribe of what were later called "Manchu". It is quite notable that while most tribes started to fall under the Manchu identity at some point, the Solon were often mentioned separately.

They first resisted Qing empire-building fiercely, but once subjugated made some of the best warriors of the Qing. They were even feared still in the 1860s by the Taipings, in a time when most of the Qing army had become a caricature of itself.

By the time the Qing fell, all Solon, Chinese, Korean, Russian, Mongolian, Hui and Manchu Bannermen were classified as "Manchu" and by now they are probably truly sinicized.</comment></comment></comment>


China holding at least 800k Muslim minorities in internment camps - <AUTHOR> https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/419855-state-dept-official-china-holding-800k-uighurs-others-in-internment <comment><USER2> I was talking politics with my friend from Iran. Having grown up in the US, I'm bitter that the American dream has been broken, and that our desire for "freedom" only includes freedom to commit war crimes and support horrific wars.

But my friend from Iran said he likes America and we have it pretty good here. I saw it as a valid difference of perspectives. Later I learned of a massacre in Iran where the government of Iran killed thousands of political prisoners in secret. [1] It helped me appreciate that for all our problems, at least we don't do that.

That said, we're currently providing direct support for a war in Yemen where an estimated 85k children have died of in the last three years [2], and countless civilians have been killed by our bombs. We even bombed a school bus full of children [3].

The death toll for our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are over 200k [4].

So it's hard for me. Does the US respect human rights? Clearly China is not respecting human rights, but what kind of example are we setting? How can we condemn others for their atrocities when we ourselves commit so many? Could we ever change our ways and set a true good example?

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_p...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_executions_of_Iranian_political_prisoners) [2] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/yemen-young- ch...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/yemen-young-children- dead-starvation-disease-save-the-children) [3] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/us-supplied- bo...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/us-supplied-bomb-that- killed-40-children-school-bus-yemen) [4] [https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians)

<comment><USER3> I honestly have to ask. Why does this come up in _every thread_ about china. I'm not even going to pull out the "whataboutism" meme but I have to nod at it as it seems relevant. What happened to observing "this is horrific and looks a lot like levels of oppression we've seen end very badly in recent history." I'm all for introspection and self-flagellation, but these are parallel discussions, and the latter shouldn't supplant focus on elements _clearly_ discrete in magnitude and potential future risk.

Post-hoc edit: I almost wish I had made this as a top level comment to avoid seeming to fixate your reply in particular, because it's by no means alone or the sole focus of my observation.

<comment><USER4> It's about putting things in perspective.

For example, there is the often cited "1 million Muslims" in jail figure, which seems like a lot. 1 million!

But if know that there are over 2.2 million people in US prisons, then that 1 million figure doesn't seem so high anymore.

I think providing a full perspective to those who are not as familiar with the topic can add to the discussion.

<comment><USER5> The Chinese penal system is separate with an official count of over 1.5 million.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_system_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_system_in_China)

> I think providing a full perspective to those who are not as familiar with > the topic can add to the discussion

I don't think you do. Making such an apples to nails comparison as the US prison system vs secret Chinese re-education camp is counter-productive.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re- education_camps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Anecdata: I have heard of Xinjiang origin Chinese tech and academia workers in the states that are actively avoiding returning home so they don't end up in such a camp or causing one of their relatives to end up in such a camp.

</comment><comment><USER7> How many do we hold? are we comparing or complaining?

</comment><comment><USER8> inb4 someone blames communism or calls china communist again

<comment><USER9> Please don't do this here.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Automated Discounts on Amazon - <AUTHOR> https://www.zincsave.com <comment><USER2> Wait, so what kinds of savings are actually available on Amazon in the first place?

I mean, I order tons of stuff. How exactly is Zinc saving me money? The books I order don't seem to vary in price, ever, and I've never seen promo codes for them either. I don't want them picking a third-party seller instead of Amazon, due to quality issues I've had in the past. They say they're not applying the affiliates discount to their own orders.

So what exactly are all these mysterious discounts?

(Also, if the orders are actually being placed through their own account, how is tracking handled? Returns? Customer service in general?)

<comment><USER3> I know my Discover card sometimes gives me 5% off from online purchases during a certain quarter or bigger discounts on particular things from Amazon if I go through their "Discover store". Maybe they have a bunch of these types of credit cards?

I'm not sure how returns would work in that situation though, I guess you have to return it through Zinc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Heavy Amazon user here (for 99% of my non-fresh food purchases, I order it on Amazon). This looks neat at first glance, because I order things on Amazon all the time, and I like saving money. A few things that prevent me from using it right now:

\- Trust. Is this service legal? Will Amazon get upset at me for using it? Maybe I'm worrying for nothing, but addressing those questions directly on your website would be worthy.

\- Order history. Using Zinc means orders won't show up in my Amazon order history, right? I like having all my Amazon orders tied to my Amazon account.

\- No one click purchase integration. I haven't used Amazon's "shopping cart" flow in forever.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback! We're hoping to make the extension work for one-click users soon.

Establishing trust is a big challenge for us. The best we know to do is provide an amazing experience for each order we get, and hope that trust in our service spreads through word of mouth.

<comment><USER5> What if I need to make a return on an item? How does that work?

<comment><AUTHOR> We provide a consistent interface for returns through our order dashboard. You simply request a return, and we provide you with a prepaid mailing label to return the item to the retailer.

When the item has been delivered, we refund your card with a full refund.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> So I'm confused here, you're saying that the products are still ordered through Amazon? Where are the promo codes from?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, our API (more info at zinc.io) places the order on the user's behalf, applying any promo codes, using the best rewards offers, etc. We guarantee the savings.

<comment><USER7> Does Zinc simply kickback some affiliate revenue earned?

<comment><AUTHOR> We do not use Amazon Associates (the affiliate program) in any manner. Sometimes the API finds savings beyond what we've guaranteed, which is how we make money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I... can't see how this is legal. If I were Amazon and I heard about this, you'd have a cease and desist order at your doorstep the next day...

If this is legal, though, please do explain.

<comment><USER9> Would it be illegal if you wanted to buy something and instead of ordering it directly by yourself you asked a friend who is an experienced shopper to order it for you? This friend just happens to have "The Price Is Right" style knowledge of the price of items, and he knows all the best coupon codes and deals that can be applied for a particular product so that you spend the least amount of money.

Zinc Save is a browser extension that acts like that friend. From what I see it isn't doing anything that a real human can't do by themselves (comparing prices on different websites and looking up coupon codes) but it just automates the process to make it easier for you.

<comment><USER8> Actually, it is doing something illegal. It's injecting a button on Amazon.com's webpage (without their consent) trying to swoop your business from them by offering a slightly lower price.

The more equivalent analogy is, you're shopping at a store and right as you're in the checkout line, a guy runs in the store from outside and steps in front of the cashier with an ipad and a Square credit card scanner and says he'll go get the exact same items from somewhere else and bring them right to your car for less than what you're about to pay for all the things in your cart. Don't you think the store would get a little pissed about that?

<comment><USER9> Your browser is a piece of software that is not obligated to display an HTML page exactly as the server delivers it. If you want to enhance your browser to add extra features and functionality to pages there is nothing wrong with that.

What makes your example illegal is that the person is advertising their service to customers without the customer's permission, just going up to them in the store and spamming them. Additionally store management can rightfully ask the theoretical interceptor to leave the premises and stay out.

With Zinc Save the customer chooses to install the browser extension and ask for Zinc's help to find the best deals. Additionally no web store can justly make demands that customer's browsers display the store without modifications. If the customer chooses to install an extension that adds extra functionality to the store pages then that is the customer's choice. Zinc Save doesn't need Amazon's consent to inject a button, they just need the consent of the customer with the browser, and that consent is granted when the customer installs the add on.

<comment><USER8> Ok, let's modify my example from "some guy" to "some guy you know" and imagine that a lot of people know this guy, and he's always standing outside that store. The store would get mad for sure.

Don't get me wrong here, I would happily use any service that would save me money if I didn't believe it was a bit shady. I'm just kind of foreseeing a bit of a legal issue if this somehow took off and got on Amazon's radar and their sales started noticeably dropping.

If legal action could NOT be pursued, it would be easy for Amazon to update their code to prevent any sort of injection like this, and it would turn into a cat-and-mouse game of who could update their code more quickly:

        setInterval(function() {
            var button = document.getElementById('zincbutton'); //or whatever
            button && button.remove();
        }, 100);

<comment><USER9> From what they describe on their FAQ page they just use crafty ordering techniques and deals to save you money. They aren't necessarily parasitizing sales from Amazon and sending them elsewhere, they are just taking advantage of savings techniques and coupons that already exist.

It's like meeting up with your friend outside the store to go shopping, and he has a big binder full of coupons that he's cut out of newspapers and circulars, and he has a credit card that he uses when checking out that has a nice rewards bonus. He uses his coupons and reward bonus to save you money and pass the savings back to you. In return he keeps a portion of the savings. So Amazon might not have that big of an axe to grind with them because its not really hurting them that much.

But I totally agree about the cat and mouse issue. I don't think this company has a very solid business model, because if history shows anything its that these kind of browser extensions require constant updating to keep them operational, especially if the website is actively trying to block them by changing the DOM, JS, etc. The ongoing development and maintenance costs of keeping this extension operational are going to severely eat into any minor profits that they make, especially if Amazon closes or limits some of the savings exploits / coupons that they are using currently.

Still I wish them the best of luck in their venture. I'm sure it will be a fun and interesting project for their devs, and if they succeed at becoming profitable all the better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> You could increase your potential user base by 50% by adding firefox support

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers)

seems to indicate firefox has about half the usage of chrome.

<comment><USER11> From the numbers of my extension, Chrome users are more keen to install extensions. I believe that it's mainly because the Chrome Webstore makes it easier to find extension than Mozilla's.

<comment><USER10> You know your own numbers better than I do.

I just want FF to get some love.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I use Amazon. I found Zinc here yesterday. I rolled the dice, ordered ~$100. My CC gives 5% cashback on amazon, 1% normally. The Zinc advantage _over_ the 4% difference was slim, but I'd rather someone else use my points than me. In fact I'd rather take the cash benefit right now, before I even spend the money.

Anyhow, I'm posting now because I just got half the order, sitting at my door when I got off work. It was delivered in probably 16~20 hours. I don't have Prime. This is amazing. It's about Zappos-level impressive from a customer standpoint.

</comment><comment><USER13> Is the user making a purchase from ZincSave (are you becoming the merchant?) or do you passthrough the user's credit card information to order on Amazon?

Interesting model given how often Amazon marks up/down prices to arbitrage if you believe you can buy at a lower price within a reasonable amount of time. Case in point, I had added a carbon steel frying pan to my cart for $26.97 on sale and then a day later, it jumped back to $38 and I didn't want to buy it anymore.

</comment><comment><USER14> Interesting idea, how does this work for international orders? Do I get the product price discounted, and then pay whatever Amazon lists for shipping?

This isn't immediately clear due to Amazon's price conversion. Here's what I see when I head to checkout: [http://i.imgur.com/2ruNHfr.png](http://i.imgur.com/2ruNHfr.png)

Which matches up with product price + shipping if I swap back to USD: [http://i.imgur.com/ekeMX0y.png](http://i.imgur.com/ekeMX0y.png)

But I'm still unclear how Zinc works with international shipping as the discounted price includes both product price and shipping.

</comment><comment><USER15> Interesting. I swear I recently had an idea of creating a chrome extension which will give me an alert every time I am on a checkout page of some site/product and tell me if I could save more due to coupons etc. that I am not aware of for that particular item. So before I click on "Purchase", I will get a small popup that says "You are paying x for this item but you can only pay x-y if you use this abc coupon". This seems similar even though it goes the extra step of ordering on your behalf.

<comment><USER16> Well if you are in UK you can use Quidco and their extension:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/quidco-cashback- re...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/quidco-cashback- reminder/elfdpdgmnodokhbiabbcjabmhpdajcog)

Which tells you if the site you are visiting offers a cashback through them (supposedly, the reviews are not very positive).

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> so you're like a combination of honey + intercepting and storing my order information on your servers to wrap around canceling and returning?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's fairly accurate. We're adding support for more retailers rapidly, and the ability to see and manage orders from across the internet from a unified place (the Zinc Save dashboard) is part of our value proposition.

If you place an order with a retailer we support, you don't need to dig around their website to figure out how to cancel it. We provide a consistent interface.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> As you only offer discounts on Amazon and Walmart can your chrome extension please just request data from those domains and not 'all websites'? I'm very conscious of extension over-access.

<comment><USER19> We request permission for all websites since we are rapidly adding support for more retailers. We don't want to have to ask the user for new permissions every time we add a retailer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> This saved me 10% on a few books I just bought, so it clearly seems to work. I'd definitely like to know how though.

<comment><USER21> Do the orders show up in your amazon history? If not, is there some way to access them? Their website is a bit sparse on details.

I'm guessing they have some way to provide discounts on all orders (credit card savings or something), and are able to sometimes get an additional discount using coupons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This possibly refunds buyers part of the Amazon affiliate fees they get for intercepting the order. I don't think Amazon will appreciate that... There are other "cashback" type services like this though, e.g. [http://www.quidco.com/](http://www.quidco.com/) which actually has contracts with many merchants (who appreciate it).

<comment><USER9> According to "FriedPickles" farther down the comment thread:

        We do not use Amazon Associates (the affiliate program) in any manner.
        Sometimes the API finds savings beyond what we've guaranteed,
        which is how we make money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> dont not work for me. I tried amazon am walmart</comment>


EFF to Congress: Stop the Cybersurveillance Bills - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/es/deeplinks/2015/04/eff-congress-stop-cybersurveillance-bills <comment><USER5> Two things.

There are a huge number of information sharing programs in effect in America and these have been cornerstone initiatives for the US government to deal with espionage and sabotage operations as well as foreign propaganda. One of the main features of these information sharing acts is that, if the company onboards to information sharing voluntarily, the government garuntees the companies that the information - which usually amounts to close to all network traffic at the border and sometimes inside the corporate network and for many companies the customer records it keeps (although some are merely programs whereby only malware and hacker IPs or propaganda social media posts, etc are shared) - can not be used against the corporation for any legal purposes. This is something that many organizations, including the EFF, are not talking about.

Second thing. The purposes of these programs are not to combat terrorism - <USER2> defense industries of the Western world feel they need surveillance and propaganda capabilities because their superpower status is hollowing out as the world's economic base shifts to the Asia Pacific and as new challenges to Western institutions such as super- and hyper-sonic warhead delivery systems enable ICBMs to land payloads across the globe now in under 40 minutes. It is challenges to the old order that make our democratic institutions feel they need to reach for our rights to defend themselves. The Constitution is a peacetime document - and there is no peace for powers that feel their influence hollowing out.

It is not useful to discuss these programs in terms of terrorism - they are not designed for terrorism.

<comment><USER6> I dispute that the world's economic base is shifting to the Asia Pacific.

The US still has the same share of global GDP that it had 35 years ago, and faces no credible threat to the dollar's dominance. The US economy is larger than the size of Japan + China combined, and is now 250% larger than Japan, and that gap will increase significantly. Canada has become vastly stronger over that time, it has as large of an economy as India with just 2.7% of the population (with not even a small fraction of the problems that India faces).

Mexico's GDP has doubled in 15 years. Brazil has become one of the major GX economies, with an economy 50% larger than Australia or South Korea.

Spain has as big of an economy - even after all the problems they've had - <USER3> South Korea (which is the #4 economy in the Pacific region).

Germany, the #2 economy in the West, is likely to pass Japan's economy in size in the next 10 to 15 years (with 1/3 less people). In the last 20 years that Japan has been treading water and taking on vast debt, Germany's economy has doubled in size post re-unification.

Most of the best countries in the world in terms of high standard of living are in Europe.

Meanwhile the Asia Pacific region has nearly two billion people living in what can only be described as intense poverty by Western standards. China alone has ~600 million unemployed captive 'farmers' earning $3 / day, because there are no other jobs for those people to do.

Japan is in such dire condition 40% of their budget goes to paying interest on their debt, their GDP hasn't grown in 20 years, and they've gotten so desperate they've taken to aggressively debasing the Yen to keep their government solvent (rapidly chopping down the Japanese standard of living in the process). Japan is of course Asia's second largest economy.

China has spent the last six years post great-recession faking their growth by taking on $30+ trillion in new debt, in the process becoming one of the most indebted nations on earth.

Japan and China, Asia's two biggest economies, are facing disastrous demographics issues, while they simultaneously drown in debt (a bad combination when you have to take care of a lot of elderly).

Compare the top 20 economies of the West vs the top 20 economies of the Asia Pacific, in terms of incomes, wealth, standard of living - it's not even remotely a close contest. The 10th largest economy in the West is the Netherlands ($50k GDP per capita); compare them to Malaysia ($10k GDP per capita) or Thailand ($5k GDP per capita).

I fail to see how this sum represents a shift to the Asia Pacific economically.

<comment><USER5> It should be noted that many people have gone bankrupt over the past three decades predicting the end of China's growth (adjusted for purchasing power, China's GDP has already surpassed the United States GDP). Anyway, a couple things.

First: the claim is that the world's economic base is __shifting __to the Asia Pacific - not that it is already there. One reason for this is that these (huge) economies are emerging into consumer rather than producer economies and another that much of the modern industrial capacity for 21st century goods (e.g. electronics) are centered in this area. The Renminbi is a credible threat to the dollar.

The second thing is that this is the perception of the Western world - it is the reason for the Bush and Obama administrations' joint plan for the Pivot to Asia. Maybe our government is wrong - but this perspective is what informs it and is leading its decisions.

The third thing of course is that your dossier is very coarse. It fails to mention the problems in the Eurozone and the financial crashes centered around the dollar. It casts the Spanish economy in good light and the Chinese one as bad. It mentions Canada's growth, but not that it has been driven by investment in China. Curiously, it uses Japan as a comparison for the US economy - a country I would consider on the Western system - and later uses Japan as an example of why the Asia Pacfic is weak.

Finally, economics have more to do with growth than they do with wealth. It does not matter that Asia is not (so) wealthy right now. What matter is that the growth is and will be centered in the Asia Pacific. The investment, global investment, will be there. Everyone wants a piece of the 7%+ pie. This while the Western world, while rich, is struggling to grow at 2%. It is not enough to look at who has the wealth - you need to look at who will be getting wealth.

What Washington thinktanks are talking about right now is:

\- How can we get the Japanese people to agree with expanded US military deployment there?

\- Can we get S. Korea to reunify with N. Korea, what would China think, and what are the prospects for Korea to become a world power?

\- What broad power plays are going to be made by Xi Jingping? How can we prevent China from gaining control of the major ocean trade routes?

\- What investments can the Western World make in Eurasia? Can a strong partnership with India, with its emerging economy and large population, enable us to compete in the region? How can we keep India off of the AIIB (esp. wrt coal)?

(And of course a great number of things not related to the Asia Pacific, like how to keep the Arctic as a no-man's land)

So anyway, I'm not actually making the claim that the Asia Pacific is going to be the center for economic growth of the world for the next 40 years. I am more properly making the claim that Western institutions believe this and are responding to it.

<comment><USER6> China's growth boom has already ended, I'm not predicting it.

If it weren't for perpetual stimulus, and truly epic debt accumulation, their economy would already be contracting. And that's before the bottom billion people in China have an opportunity to participate in a better life. The painful reality is, there are not enough resources, savings, or consumers to lift China's bottom one billion up to even the levels of a mid tier economy (~$15k incomes) - at least not in this century. They're entering Japan's debt phase of the post growth bust - the point where the country gets desperate to maintain its growth and so turns to accumulating debt - and they're doing so before having even a mediocre social safety net.

When you have to take on $5 in debt to get $1 of GDP growth, your growth is over. Ten years ago their return on invested capital, and return on debt had already begun to plunge. At this point China is far beyond yielding good enough returns on the debt they're accumulating. Now it's merely a question of when China enters a debt panic, as all of their 'growth' gets starved out due to debt obligations.

7% GDP growth equates to $600 to $700 billion in new GDP per year for China. They're taking on $4+ trillion per year in new debt annually. To maintain above 5% growth, they will probably have to take on another $30+ trillion in new debt the next six or seven years alone (based on what it has taken to reach the growth levels of the last five or six years, and assuming a continued decline in return on that debt).

Their liquidity mess has resulted in one of the greatest stock market bubbles in history and will soon implode; 2/3 of the investors participating don't even have a high school equivalent education level. Their real estate bubble has already begun to implode, pushing fleeing money into the new bubble in equities. They're also bleeding foreign capital, whereas previously capital was desperate to enter China.

There are only two possible outcomes for China the next 20 years. A lost 20 years like Japan, for similar reasons, following the implosion of both a real estate and stock market bubble (again mirroring Japan). Or China acts very aggressively, very quickly to curb debt accumulation and to pop existing bubbles - that will result in extremely mediocre growth (1% to 3%) for a decade or two, after a period of painful contraction.

<comment><USER7> I hear a great number of predictions regarding China - especially on discussion forums. It's also interesting to hear your analysis of debt accumulation. When the US did much the same what I kept hearing from finance folks was that foreign capital works quite differently than personal savings and that the US debt burden was (and is) not really so big a deal. I have heard variations of your argument for some years and so far none of them have been right - I am struggling to figure out how your argument now differs from their arguments then.

Consistently, on the other hand, what I hear from Washington strategists is that they can not make policy decisions based on the hope that China's economy with deflate or implode (not to mention that this would offer its own kind of disaster to the West - look at what Thailand unpegging the dollar did in '97). Their assessment is quite divergent from yours. Although it shares so many features with the many before you who have wrongly predicted an implosion it would be interesting if you were right. To reiterate my earlier point Washington behaves off its beliefs and it believes that growth in that hemisphere, plus growth in China, will make the Asian theater the dominant one for the next half century.

Luckily for the world all predictions made in this thread are falsifiable - <USER4> need only watch to see what happens over the next couple of decades to find out. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> We have two major surveillance efforts from the government moving down the pike and we do not have the attention of the Internet.

1.A set of surveillance bills under the guise of enhanced cyber security. [https://stopcyberspying.com/](https://stopcyberspying.com/)

2\. Patriot act renewals that would reauthorize the governments phone and Internet metadata authorities. [https://fight215.org/](https://fight215.org/)

Anything you can do to increase awareness of these bills would make an enormous difference...

</comment><comment><USER9> Obligatory: [https://eff.org/donate](https://eff.org/donate)

I highly recommend signing up for a $19.84 recurring monthly donation. Also, is there a SuperPAC or 501(c)4 that can lobby for this cause that we can donate to?

<comment><USER10> While I do respect the EFF and what they're doing, I'm flat out against joining the whole SuperPAC thing where we're joining a piss-off contest into who can give easily corruptible politicians that have no clue what they're voting on the most money.

<comment><USER11> I agree 100%

I often argue with a lobbyist friend of mine about their (lobbyists) role in the ecosystem.

Right now the paradigm seems to be hire lawyers to serve in Congress because lawyers know how to write potential laws. Leave it to lobbyists to convince them of the policy they should care about.

I feel that if we had representatives with more diverse backgrounds, and we surrounded them with lawyers and staff to explain how to best translate their ideas into bills, we'd be better served.

There would still be special interest groups trying to convince them of what to do, but I feel it would avoid situations like SuperPAC's buying clueless politicians, and clueless politicians being appointed to committees they know nothing about.

<comment><USER12> _I feel that if we had representatives with more diverse backgrounds, and we surrounded them with lawyers and staff to explain how to best translate their ideas into bills, we 'd be better served._

Interesting. Instead of lawyers on the inside, specialists on the outside, we would have specialists on the inside, lawyers on the outside. I've wanted something similar for a while, and I like this way of phrasing it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> How is the top voted comment here about Asia's economic rise? Whether these programs are "meant" for terrorism is irrelevant -- they are being pushed in the name of terrorism. If they are about economic power in Asia, and our politicians are using terrorism as a front to pass it, THAT is the problem. We don't need to be discussing Asia.

We don't need more government control or surveillance, period. It's obviously a bad idea, and the only way to stop it is to BE VOCAL. Call your representatives and talk to your friends and family about this important issue.

<comment><USER14> The top voted comment is not about economics in China specifically - it is the only substantive reply that the parent got so that's what the conversation devolved into. The top comment is more broadly about the US being challenged - it's hollowing out of power. In the iron age if you can't wield iron you will be cast down. In the information if you can't wield information...

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> As much as I love the EFF, I think we have to be honest with ourselves and admit its a fundamental generational problem.

The people who think this is a good idea don't fully understand the implications. Hell, people get dox'd because they don't understand how the whole system works with publicly available information when they are discussing something they really shouldn't under their real names.

Hell, even without the NSA its pretty easy to imagine a scenario where:

[Person discusses having an affair on Platform X] -> [Some bored IT guy notices, thinks the woman is attractive and has no morals] -> [Uses exchanged information to exploit her for sexual favors because its better than her husband divorcing her and leaving her with nothing]

It doesn't even occur to these people that they are creating weapons that literally could be used to exploit anyone who has a secret they want hidden, domestically. The firewall that exists between "domestic" and "international" that is supposed to prevent this is exactly what these politicians are burning down.

At least, I keep hoping its ignorance.

<comment><USER16> People have a blind faith in the watch guards and a natural tendency to hand them the rope necessary to be hung with.

I have a friend in the middle of a divorce. Her husband works for their cell provider. He has harassed her with allusions to "keeping tabs" on her because of his position of power.

When you point the panopticon inwards you realize just how scary unfiltered communication and location data taken out of context can be and how dangerous someone with malicious intent and access to that data can be.

No one should have that power over someone. It certainly shouldn't be consolidated into the hands' of any group of people, either.

<comment><USER17> > _People have a blind faith in the watch guards_

People have an explicitly cultivated faith in the watch guards. Cop shows on TV promote an image of competency and good will. That's not what it's like in the real world, but even in this forum, you find people being way too deferential.

<comment><USER18> I'm in the UK and by and large we have reasonable policing (by the standards of many countries we have excellent policing).

That said, I have absolutely no deference to the police here either, it's a public sector job the same as any other staffed by people largely no better or worse than any other industry with the crucial difference they are sworn to uphold the law and have powers granted to them to that end.

They deserve the exact same respect as any other member of our society, we largely don't go in for all the "men in blue" stuff either - they weren't conscripted they chose to join as rational thinking adults.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Do we have a svn blame for parts of bills? Who keeps putting these in? Are they aware that they are, or are they just copying from what others with other interest give them?

<comment><USER20> The mental image of members of Congress themselves committing to an official US federal law Github repo is kind of amusing. It would make being on a "committee" take on a whole new meaning...

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I know some people don't want to even think about it, but just as a thought exercise; where does the limit lie?

How much and how long does society go on nicely asking the government to stop thrusting itself down the slope? Do we just keep asking and asking while things get worse and worse and the next generation that is born into blanket state surveillance sees nothing wrong with the situation?

I get that there are civil remedies like the subject one, along with judicial methods, and even electoral ones. But it also seems that there is a distinct process in place that effectively shields and converts, or generally simply disconnects legislative representation from the will of the people. How much does it matter that those who oppose blanket surveillance make up an inconsequential minority among the established legislators that have political or financial reasons to oppose what society wants, or simply have been scared by boogiemen that various agencies heavily lean on in order to justify their existence and funding.

Also, what happens when the will of the people, for whatever reason lacks the foresight to prevent unintended consequences of irreversible actions or decisions by, e.g., constantly electing people that will only perpetuate the surveillance state we currently live in?

I'm simply asking the question of anyone, where they think the line currently is or will be drawn? It seems that examples in human history abound of philosophical boundaries constantly being pushed back, all the while the position becomes ever increasingly overbearing and draconian and authoritarian.

Have there been any efforts to establish what it is that the founders of this country would have established as the final line in the sand? I don't know, and maybe it's just a misinterpretation, but it seems that the very most fundamental and core concepts of our country and society were violated a long enough time ago to have reasonably expected remediation by now.

<comment><USER22> If you want to understand why the Congress does what it does, you have to first accept that they are addressing the desires of large portions of the population.

When it seems like they are not, it's because many of the desires of the population are directly conflicting.

For example, people want very low-cost energy, but people also want a clean environment and to fight global warming. Or, people want the freedom to own their own guns, but they are horrified by mass shootings like Sandy Hook Elementary. Or, people want planes to never ever crash for any reason, but people also hate any security inconvenience at airports.

In the case of privacy, people want their data to be secure, and they want to keep the bad guys out of our companies. Even here on HN, look at the reactions to news of major hacks. The reaction is 100% negative. No one says "eh, that company was probably doing everything right, and just got unlucky." No, the prevailing opinion is "those idiots need to get better at security."

The thing is, there is no possible way for a company to get better at security without transacting information in some way. Cutting-edge exploits must be shared to be understood and mitigated. You can't do that without sharing information.

The EFF does not even discuss this, which is fine, because that's not really their job. Their job is to fight against a bad bill. But we should not make the mistake of thinking that no one wants the government to help with cybersecurity. Actually most companies DO want that, and indirectly, their customers and employees do too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Some historical context for considering why bills proposing to compel greater collaboration or coordination or cooperation from companies storing private communications might be problematic: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung)

</comment><comment><USER24> xnull2guest and others make good points. Most of the information our government can't get from us; they get from other governments on us. This needs to stop. Support the EFF and more importantly, help our elected representatives understand that they need to stop this and comply with the constitution. Vote them out if they don't.

</comment><comment><USER25> Congress to EFF: screw you, pay me.

<comment><USER26> They already get money, just "screw you".

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I <3 EFF.</comment>


Ask HN: Any startup looking for a summer intern ? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
I'm a french student studying computer science and I'm looking for an internship in germany or in the uk.
I can program in C, scheme, python and ruby.
You can see the projects I'm working on on my github page : http://github.com/khamidou <comment><USER2> Judging by the comments, quite a few people in Europe seem to be interested in a summer internship. But we face a shortage of suitable startups in the area.

What do you think of creating our own workplace? Imagine five to ten hackers coming together for a few months. We'd rent a flat, hack together, perhaps do some consulting work to be Ramen sustainable. (No communism implied. We'd go Dutch on the costs.)

After getting to know each other and feeling comfortable, people could split into small teams (three members or so) and create startup-projects, if they want to.

Any thoughts? Please drop me a line at firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd love to but unfortunately an internship is required by my college, and I don't think they'll take it very well...

But you should definitely try it.

<comment><USER2> In my university they also require an internship. However in reality, all they require is a company stamp and a signature on a piece of paper that says that you did an internship, plus a few pages from you talking about what you did in your internship. There's nothing barring you from incorporating with a bunch of friends, and intern at your own company.

Of course you should do something worthwhile during that internship.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Here are a couple of companies which are currently on the front page. Since you're looking in Germany or the UK I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but it may be helpful to others who find their way into this thread.

Justin.tv: <http://www.justin.tv/jobs> JamLegend: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551247>

<comment><AUTHOR> I applied to justin.tv but they told me that they don't accept students who aren't eligible to work in the us.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> We already have a handful of interns coming on board this summer. We're looking for a few more.

These are volunteer positions unless you are student eligible for work-study via your school. (bilumi has been approved by MIT and Tufts for work-study, and we'd be happy to go through that process with your school, too. One student is leading a grant application to fund investigative journalism in Brazil.)

You can check out the range of internships on this flyer: bilumi.org/interns.pdf

Development-wise, I'd be happy to talk about our modules in detail with anyone who is interested. Work areas include but are not limited to: python, javascript, browser plugins, web design, data manipulation and analysis, mobile and social network apps.

Some interns work remotely, some here in Cambridge, MA. We do a work retreat weekend on the Cape that brings everyone together at least once.

<http://bilumi.org>

email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER5> Hi,

We'd love your help. Debatewise.com is a non-profit debating site built in Ruby on Rails. Our goal is to create a Wikipedia of debate, a resource full of user-generated pro and con debates on a wide variety of different issues that people can turn to when they want to make up their mind.

I can be contacted via the site if you're interested and want to know more. We're based in London.

Dave

</comment><comment><USER6> I've been in contact with a YC startup since Jan 18th trying to sort out an internship for this summer, however their incompetence has forced me to just give up with them. Hopefully you'll have better luck than me. I'm still looking for a UK internship but have decided local companies are easier to deal with than most startups.

<comment><USER7> where are you based? what are your skills?

<comment><USER6> I'm based in Sheffield UK, I mostly use Python where possible but write Java/Haskell where it makes sense. I have some code up on <http://www.davbo.org/trac> if you're interested.

<comment><USER8> Hi there, I too am based in Sheffield but at Hallam (I can here the boo's from here...). Feel free to drop me a line: email@example.com

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Hi there,

      I can't offer you an internship but would be interested in talking about yours projects, I am based in France and in the UK. Email: lwcarab at gmail dot com

Richard

<comment><USER9> Similar situation - I'd be happy to talk to you about some of the projects I'm working on, and see if you'd like to go 50/50 on any of them. <http://www.dedasys.com> has a few of them, but there are others. I'm located in Italy, but am from the US.</comment></comment>


Millennials (Gen Y): Will they really reinvent IT? - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9121 <comment><USER2> From CNN using Twitter to the explosion of startups and low capital business offering service based products I think it's fair to say Gen Y already has reinvented IT if not already knocking down the door.

</comment><comment><USER3> These generational things are pretty stupid. Even more so when they overlap or don't really cover what the colloquial definitions are.

I mean in my circle, Millennials are kids born in the mid to late 90's while Gen Y are kids born in the 80's and Gen X are kids born in the 70's. Their rise to prominence and influence on culture is why we give them nicknames.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X></comment>


Can Web Music Survive? - <AUTHOR> http://recode.net/2016/02/18/can-web-music-survive/ <comment><USER2> It seems like the answer is "yes".

The reason: I just discovered libre.fm. My initial impression is it seems like last.fm was back when I liked it, but it uses Free everything, including Free music from archive.org. It's usable via a browser, but I see that there are also debian clients (zomg (console), vagalume), and support in amarok & gmusicbrowser. This seems sustainable, more than some others.</comment>