Airbnb is squeezing Toronto's housing market - <AUTHOR> https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/bjqjda/how-airbnb-is-squeezing-torontos-tight-rental-market <comment><USER2> It appears that unfair and exclusionary zoning is squeezing Toronto's housing market: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/landlords-housing- adv...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/landlords-housing-advocates- hope-council-loosens-arbitrary-rules-on-secondary-suites-1.4895814). Looks like Toronto is, like most North American cities, is legally constricting the supply of housing, leading to higher prices: [https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing- explained/suppl...](https://www.vox.com/cards/affordable-housing- explained/supply-side-of-affordable-housing-matters-most).

The framing of the article's headline is bad.

<comment><USER3> Just remember that "too few houses" is the same problem as "too many people."

Why doesn't anyone suggest that there are too many people and that we need to control population growth to rates below zero?

<comment><USER4> Can you suggest ways to eliminate the "too many people" problem without restricting the freedoms and privileges of people?

You can theoretically restrict the movement of people by decreasing immigration, or restricting local people to move into places with too many people. You can theoretically restrict having more children. Both of those restrictions have been hugely unpopular in places that have tried them. You cannot hold onto power in a democracy or democratic republic if you are sufficiently unpopular.

<comment><USER5> You don't have a right to live wherever you want. This is economics at work (housing costs increase until reaching equilibrium with supply, with supply being constrained by geographic or governance limitations).

<comment><USER6> Economics also dictates if that more people want to live in a place, more housing will be built. But intervention by law to prevent housing or slow it alters this.

<comment><USER5> Zoning trumps economic forces. Local citizens are exerting their rights over their community, which they're entitled to do.

These are hard problems to solve, I readily admit.

<comment><USER4> Zoning is reactionary though and there is a relatively long delay from when a problem with zoning first occurs, to when it is reported, to when locals organize, to when it reaches municipal government, to when it finally gets passed. I know municipal governments have a lot on their plate, but it'd be nice if there was a mandatory review of zoning laws zone by zone to preemptively investigate if the laws are helping or if the laws are hurting.

<comment><USER5> Yes, agree entirely. You have to balance the wants of existing citizens with the housing demand from potential citizens.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> In an ideal free-market you only need 2 regulations:

1.Prevent monopolies and 2. Fight fraud.

1\. According to insideairbnb.com there are 8,946 full time high-availability airbnbs in Toronto. However if we look regular apartments available for rent on zillow , padmapper.com etc, there are only 8,429 or less units available. This means airbnb has a monopoly on available living space. We don't need new regulation, monopolies are illegal. It's no surprise during the busy summer events a 1 bedroom airbnb can shoot up to 800$/night.

Annectodal evidence confirms this. I've been living here for 13 years. 2/3 of the new condos are usually empty, I'm not exaggerating. Wether you look at them year round from the outside, ask people if anyone actually lives on their floors, talk to the concierge in different buildings, they're more than half empty. This is a combination of airbnb and also the foreign investor market for condos that are "never livded-in". Also this is not uber, uber is great because it has competition from lyft. AirBnb does not, landlords are basically their contractors, i don't pay them, i pay airbnb, they set the price and promos. They control more than half the market. They further enhance scarcity because airbnb's are profitable even if they're unused for 2/3 of the time, so if we look at housing as units of a 'good-nights-sleep' , we can clearly see how this is anti-competitive behaviour.

2.Fight fraud: There are no employment checks for foreigners getting a mortgage in Toronto, as long as they provide a 34% downpayment and have in the bank about a year of mortgage payments. I can't legally compete with that. I don't have some third world factory, gambling business, foreign politicians in the family laundering money through me. I'm just a hard-working citizen, my student landlord has literally never had a job in their life, this is borderline feudalism at this point.

<comment><USER8> > This means airbnb has a monopoly on available living space

Unlike Uber and Lyft, AirBnB doesn't set prices, condo owners do. If condo owners are colluding then that's a different issue.

<comment><USER7> More than half the prices are set and paid on AirBnb. The app has no competition, they're a monopoly. Landlords don't give out $75 promo credits for new users.

<comment><USER8> Let's say tomorrow VRBO takes over 50% of the market. How would apartment listings change in price and why?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> To play devil's advocate... Airbnb is a much better alternative (for landlords) vs leasing out and that's why it's wildy successful in Toronto.

Landlords often find themselves in a costly and exasperating battle dealing with a shitty tenant.

Once a shitty tenant moves in, it can be several months of legal battles to remove them... and the landlord is out-of-pocket thousands of dollars.

Airbnb does away with most of this risk.

Update: www.airbnbhell.com demonstrates, it has it's own risks!

<comment><USER10> There are a lot of people that are preferring to do Airbnb instead of traditional rentals. Your comment reminded me of another article (may have been previously posted on HN).

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty- dublin-...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin- housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords)

<comment><USER11> My thoughts always turn to Dublin (and Galway) on this too. It's an issue I've noticed firsthand there when I was looking for a place to live. Really difficult to get a year long lease. Landlords like to rent out in summer to tourists, then try to get undergrads in the fall (if they make the switch at all with it...)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Besides the effect on the housing market, I think many towns and cities are regulating short term rentals (AirBnB) in a manner that falls prey to the classic XY problem. (You want X so keep suggesting and focusing on Y) This often tags the form of enacting severely limiting occupancy limits in the name of reducing parking demand despite the fact that the majority of the occupants are often children. (Family reunions are very common so having 6 adults + children can quickly _seem_ like a lot of people).

I would argue that local municipalities should _actually_ enforce noise, parking, and other peace keeping ordinences _instead_ of (heavily) regulatting short term rentals directly. If the current laws are insufficient at keeeping tourists/renters in check, they should enact additional laws based on actual input from their constituents to address real complaints instead of regulating AirBnB and short term rentals.

A shitty neighbor is a shitty neighbor independent of if they are a home owner or a renter. If local ordinences were actually levied against the owners of properties with misbehaving guests, they would have an economic incentive to regulate their tenants more carefully.

</comment><comment> cde-v Airbnb is squeezing every metropolitan housing market.

<comment><USER13> It isn't in Tokyo and other Japanese cities.

Which don't exactly have laissez-faire approaches to folks renting out their properties, but the larger issue is that Japanese cities are just generally better about building enough housing to meet demand compared with most American and Canadian cities.

<comment><USER14> Not really a fair comparison.

For example the whole of Japan had 28 million visitors in 2017[0].

I couldn't find more recent stats but Austin TX had 20 million visitors in 2011-2012.[1][2]

Tokyo metro has a population of 13million Austin tops out at 2 million.

Austin also has some of the highest airbnb usage, 400k+ guests in a year.[3]

I'm bring up Austin because I live there and definitely experience Airbnb affecting the prices.

Sure we all want more housing but the fact is that investors love to buy homes in cash to rent out for events driving the existing stock prices higher.

[0] [https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/23/japan-welcomed-20-percent- mo...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/23/japan-welcomed-20-percent-more- tourists-in-2017--and-the-number-is-growing.html) [1][http://www.austinrelocationguide.com/2012/Tourism-in- Austin/](http://www.austinrelocationguide.com/2012/Tourism-in-Austin/) [2][https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2011/09/28/survey- re...](https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2011/09/28/survey-reveals-more- people-are.html) [3][https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/01/30/airbnbs-m...](https://www.bizjournals.com/austin/news/2018/01/30/airbnbs- most-popular-places-to-stay-in-austin.html)

<comment><USER15> > For example the whole of Japan had 28 million visitors in 2017[0]. I > couldn't find more recent stats but Austin TX had 20 million visitors in > 2011-2012.[1][2]

These numbers are apples and oranges. For Japan, the number is for foreign tourists, while for Austin it is for all tourists. Tokyo and other Japanese cities also have domestic tourists, which aren't being counted in your 28 million number.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> One can see the Airbnb data for Toronto in the link below:

[https://www.airdna.co/vacation-rental- data/app/ca/ontario/to...](https://www.airdna.co/vacation-rental- data/app/ca/ontario/toronto/overview)

</comment><comment><USER17> Interesting article considering Toronto's housing market is rolling over in a bad way.

 _In fact the average detached house in the jewel of the GTA is changing hands for 12% less than in the Spring of last year and a crispy 25.6% under what it commanded the previous year._

[https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/02/06/nowhere-to- hide/](https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/02/06/nowhere-to-hide/)

<comment><USER18> We're either in an affordability crisis or a housing crash. Either way, AirBnB must be the one to blame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Interesting to view Airbnb as a kind of capital flight for property. The risk/reward of short term rentals is better than that of tenants, and so owners are switching.

The main gap is between the risk adjusted value of a lease vs. the potential income on short term rentals. Theoretically, over the long term, the net value of a lease should be greater than what you can net from the short term market, but something has broken that.

Also, given that rental income is taxed as regular income at the top marginal rate that the owner pays, does that not mean an owner must charge at least %40 more than their mortgage payment to break even? Given most of those condos have mortgages from people with middle class jobs, pricing that in creates a dead loss that would cause rent increases by itself.

</comment><comment><USER20> Ironic to think how damaging Airbnb can be to cities with tight housing markets and yet run by mostly leftist executives and employees...</comment>


Ask HN: Can you please make all links open in a new tab? (Or a profile setting?) - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Solutions for you that don't involve changing the behavior for everyone else:

A. Use middle click

B. Hold CTRL (PC) or Command (Mac) and click

C. Write your own JavaScript snippet (I recommend the Stylish add-on for Chrome) that adds 'target="_blank"' attributes to every link

<comment><USER3> I thought the OP had a very reasonable suggestion. It would be very beneficial to me to have it as a profile setting. And if for me, then probably others, too. So only those who want it would change their behavior.

<comment><USER3> I still can't figure out how one login can give me -3 points. Very impressive. How many logins do you have? Must be a hassle keeping them straight, and you just burned three of them for one reply. Hardly seems sustainable.

<comment><USER2> 1) I don't know whom you're addressing, but it's very unlikely someone used 3 different accounts to downvote you for something that isn't very political/controversial. For your reference, you can't downvote someone who replies to you, so it certainly wasn't me.

2) You can't "burn" downvotes. You have as many as you want, but can only downvote any eligible comment a single time. I can't remember what makes some comments ineligible, though.

3) You'll end up hating HN if you take downvotes personally. Downvoting is often a way to say "I disagree" without polluting the thread. Sometimes you hit a seam of (dis)approval, and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I hope a few downvotes won't stop you from participating, as there are a lot of brilliant people here who have interesting things to say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> And make the links italic comic sans pls. Or a profile option.

</comment><comment><USER5> +1</comment>


Crown Sterling Decrypts RSA Asymmetric Public Keys in Live Demonstration - <AUTHOR> https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crown-sterling-decrypts-rsa-asymmetric-130000324.html <comment><USER2> Factoring 256-bit RSA keys is not impressive. Factoring 512 bit keys was first done in 1999 [0].

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_Factoring_Challenge#The_pr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_Factoring_Challenge#The_prizes_and_records)

<comment><USER3> From the video: in a computer with 200GB of RAM, and 32 cores, they factorized the key in 52 seconds.

The first key (in decimal) is 83473593554391843334619428139045661537976651941410655062632649869770538548577

This page [https://www.alpertron.com.ar/ECM.HTM](https://www.alpertron.com.ar/ECM.HTM) solved it in 3 minutes, 37 seconds. I guess they are not using a so powerful machine. (It says "This is the WebAssembly version.")

I'm too lazy to copy the second number, but I guess it will be as easy as factorize as the first.

Can someone just repeat this demonstration in travis-ci or something like that using an standard package?</comment></comment>


Is Captcha Drunk or Satanic? - <AUTHOR> http://superkinz.tumblr.com/post/37872152633/captcha-gone-satanic

<comment><USER2> I guess they have to use some sort of obfuscation in order to prevent spam bots from using text-to-speech software to get around the mechanism, but that is REALLY confusing. My guess is that the audio characters don't necessarily match up with the ones displayed in the image, but all I could make out was A (S/F) M</comment>


What Is Web-Scraping and How to Start - <AUTHOR> https://www.coriers.com/what-is-web-scraping/ <comment><USER2> > Ruby's Nokogiri, Python's BeautifulSoup, and JavaScript's Nightmare are > powerful tools to begin learning web scraping

For .NET developers, the Html Agility Pack library is a great HTML parser written in C# to read/write DOM and supports plain XPATH or XSLT:

[https://html-agility-pack.net/](https://html-agility-pack.net/)

</comment><comment><USER3> I've had good results using [https://sdk.apify.com/](https://sdk.apify.com/), it's Node.js and puppeteer based, very easy to pick up for any js developer.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why not Selenium?</comment>


Webbynode launches - hosting for Rails, Django or LAMP - <AUTHOR> http://webbynode.com/ <comment><USER2> My initial thoughts (literally - written as I'm browsing the site and things pop into my head):

It's a tad more expensive than Linode, although offering slightly different plans, and a tad less expensive than Slicehost for many plans.

The ReadyStack is neat, but I'd have to see if it's how I'd want my stack. I guess I shouldn't gripe about having to spend a few dollars to get a ready- made stack as long as it's the stack I'd want (which would be Ubuntu based). Also, why do I have to have phpMyAdmin or phpPgAdmin? That means that I have a walking security vulnerability on my server as well as having to have PHP on my box even if I'm not using it.

There's no information about high availability IP failover situations. Not important for a lot of people, but still.

No Amex acceptance? My company only gives us Amex charge cards. If I recommend this, it would mean putting it on my personal card and filing for reimbursements each month. Not what I want to do.

Location? Slicehost is St Louis and now Dallas-Ft Worth via Rackspace's data center. It's nice to know. Linode even lets you choose where which can be neat, if not that functional for many.

Why should I go with a new company when Linode and Slicehost are so well established with a long track record? No great answer.

No backups yet. It's a huge selling point for my IT director on Slicehost and Linode has it in beta now.

\--

Well, that was my impression browsing the site. It looks really slick, but is there a reason to cause me to change? prgmr.com offers significantly cheaper prices which gives me some reason (even if they have drawbacks). That's really where I am. There's no big reason to choose Webbynode over alternative providers because I'm comfortable installing my own stack. But there might be lots of people who would want that ease.

Looks slick. Looks like great work done. Looks like it will be good for people, but not what I need. Good luck! Always nice to see more competition in this space!

</comment><comment><USER3> I love innovation in a market that doesn't see enough of it. It is great to have options of medium complexity between Slicehost & etc "In the beginning, there was an Ubuntu install. Then God looked upon the bare server and said, sudo apt-get rubygems, and it was good." and Heroku & company managed environment cloud solutions.

One bit of friendly advice: you'll see a lot of people here attach great importance to the difference between $15 and $20. It is very difficult to build a business on this kind of customer, since they will also attach great importance to the difference between $12 and $15 when somebody comes along and offers it next week.

</comment><comment><USER4> Slightly cheaper than Slicehost ...

Sadly they don't have a detailed description on what you get (ie. which linux distros are available, their ReadyStack(TM), fix IP, backup).

Wish them good luck, might check back later.

<comment><USER2> They might be cheaper than Slicehost, but they're more expensive than Linode.

Also, some of the questions you have are answered (possibly not in the best format): <http://webbynode.com/questions#linuxdistro> <http://webbynode.com/images/readyapp_01.png>

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hey guys,

Our servers are located in Miami, FL. We've received some great feedback from your comments. If you have any questions please email me at carlos at webbynode or @cartab

Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER6> One thing they seem to do that is different is a less than 20$/month low end. Maybe that will help with impulse, "hey I'd love a slice to mess with" purchases.

</comment><comment><USER7> We're intending to launch our hosting service targeted at Django users shortly.

Highlights of our service include a separate MySQL cluster (databases on a VPS don't perform so well) and a proper SLA.

More info at <http://kutoken.com/>

</comment><comment><USER8> I clicked around a bit and couldn't see where their servers are located. I assume they don't (yet) offer multiple locations like Linode and Slicehost.</comment>


The Xenobots, Virtual Creatures Brought to Life - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/science/xenobots-robots-frogs-xenopus.html <comment><USER2> While part of me immediately fears biological variation of the Iron Wind, I absolutely enjoyed the article. This is really what I come to HN for.

What did trouble me somewhat is the ending where the author effectively says, and I am paraphrasing, that bothering with ethics of it in a world, where we, as a species, demonstrably do not follow ethics is kinda silly ( he lists human designed pathogens as a way to substantiate it). I had trouble accepting that argument that despite knowing that factually he is correct.

edit: replaced true at the end with "factually he is correct"

</comment><comment><USER3> So as I understand it, biologists and computer scientists take clumps of frog embryo cells and engineer their shapes to allow them to perform specific tasks?

Fascinating!

<comment><USER4> I wonder if they could use simple rules to get emergent behaviour like this: [https://youtu.be/gaFKqOBTj9w](https://youtu.be/gaFKqOBTj9w)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> For a moment it got me thinking it was about these Xenobots,

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dp6Rlf-2Wg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dp6Rlf-2Wg)

</comment><comment><USER6> "All of which makes xenobots amazing and maybe slightly unsettling — golems dreamed in silicon and then written into flesh."

'Golem' is the right word. Something about seeing these artificial "organisms" thrash about bothers me.

</comment><comment><USER7> This is groundbreaking - and the very fact that it is possible, is mind- bending... I really liked the possibility that these 'machines' can be 'evolved' into agglomerating ocean microplastics into collectable balls!</comment>


The Martian landscape like you have never seen. - <AUTHOR> http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/11/martian_landscapes.html

<comment><USER2> I have trouble viewing this as landscapes. I have to really focus to make them anything more than abstract textures. And for some reason all the craters look like they're convex, not concave. Great images, really makes me nostalgic for a future of planetary exploration that will, alas, probably not happen till I'm either senile or dead. The Big Picture strikes again! Thanks, tdedecko.</comment>


Gamer raided by Swat team in front of 60,000 viewers - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/05/gaming-streamer-gets-swatted-as-online-griefing-enters-real-world

<comment><USER2> The police are usually very trigger happy in these situations. This is very dangerous and could easily get someone killed!

<comment><USER3> I think that maybe "trigger happy" is an unfair term here - being that they are usually expecting to find a terrorist / hostage situation.

But I agree with your main point: it's only a matter of time until someone gets killed in one of these.</comment></comment>


A Visual Look at 2M Chess Games - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ebemunk.com/a-visual-look-at-2-million-chess-games/ <comment><USER2> >There are more than 50 thousand games that end in mate! Obviously this is minuscule compared to the size of the database, but I wonder if the players really didn't see it coming, or just "allowed" their opponent to finish what might have been a nice combination?

Or maybe forced their opponent to mate under time pressure?

</comment><comment><USER3> Too the article is broken on Android mobile.</comment>


MOS Technology 6502 CPU - <AUTHOR> http://lowendmac.com/2016/mos-technology-6502-cpu/ <comment><USER2> "In May 1976, Motorola again slashed the price of the 68000 CPU, this time to $35." \- Should be 6800. One zero too many :-)</comment>


Can a news site be reborn? Gigaom readers are about to find out - <AUTHOR> http://fortune.com/2015/05/26/gigaom-acquisition/ <comment><USER2> So, I think this represents an interesting space. Gigaom died, but the next person to come along and buy it has an established name that will naturally rank higher in google results, out the gate.

They don't have to even do anything all that amazing; all the costs have already been spent by someone else, so they just need to coast and grow slow. Given their lower overhead and the nature of the internet, they might be able to get by. But, I don't think they'll manage much more than that.</comment>


How to Not Die in America - <AUTHOR> https://splinternews.com/how-to-not-die-in-america-1822555151 <comment> King-Aaron I read these sorts of articles and honestly cannot fathom why so many people in the United States are/were against a taxpayer-funded public healthcare system.

If I get sick here in Western Australia, I go down to the doctor, pay nothing, get a script filled in the chemist next door, and just carry on. If you have something life threatening happening, you get seen to pretty much right away. If you have private health insurance, you get a choice of a better hospital, your preferred practitioner, etc for sure. But if you're like the person in the article, you sure as hell aren't going to die because you can't afford treatment.

<comment><USER2> Maybe it's not a question of being against it but more a matter of wanting to see a reasonable solution as to how to balance infinite demand against finite cash. It's odd to see Brits coming to one of the poorest countries in the EU - Romania to get dental and eye treatments they can't get (unless they wait until it's too late) in the UK.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Quote from "Sorely Vexed," in the comments, points up one aspect of the scenario that's rarely discussed:

"The US medical industry is a racket that uses patient fear and vulnerability to commit robbery. Doctors who keep themselves aloof from the dirty business of where their paychecks come from are just as complicit as the ripoff hospitals that employ them. Just because someone else slices up the the body before you eat it, doesn't mean you're not a cannibal."

</comment><comment><USER4> Ya everything I've personally seen in and read about America really makes it seem like a third world death hole. Driving across 3 states and 500 miles all I encountered for a good 300 out of those 500 miles were endless highways littered with anti-suicide and anti-crystal meth bill boards.

Then in the distance...the great golden arches of the towering 100 foot tall McDonald's signs 50 miles in the distance, then the arby's, then maybe a burger king or a chevron. Then you get to the 'town' which consists of the above mentioned fast food places, 3-5 churches a gas station and houses. That's it. No grocery stores, no schools, no hospitals. Just that and endless farm fields for a hundred miles either way.

I have a friend who lives in south east asia. She eats home grown fresh food for less than $10 a day. Has more reliable and cheaper internet than me, has better surroundings than me and other than occasional random power outages, seems to have a better quality of life than me and most people in America.

<comment><USER5> Were you on the interstate system (where most tall McDonalds signs are placed)? You probably wouldn't see too many schools.

<comment><USER4> So that means the people living in these places don't matter? There were hundreds of houses in these places, enough for 4 churches. I asked people living there. They eat nothing but the crap that they sell at the gas station or fast food. These are real people...thousands of them in just the states I went through.

Their quality of life is completely fucking abysmal. Living in these places would be like living in hell.

<comment><USER6> Where was this?

<comment><USER7> Not op, but indiana, missouri, ohio for sure fit this catagory.

<comment><USER4> Eastern Washington, Idaho, Montana,and Wyoming

<comment><USER6> _There were hundreds of houses in these places, enough for 4 churches. I asked people living there. They eat nothing but the crap that they sell at the gas station or fast food._

I really don't believe that statement in any of the places mentioned. Rural areas have a lot of food options other than fast food (heck, often fast food isn't available).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Rate my product - mostrecent.net - <AUTHOR>

http://mostrecent.net/
My idea: to build a community of topical-hand-edited news pages. I want to start in the tech community working to recruit editors/experts to build pages covering programming languages and popular technologies. Think of it as an alternative to blogs, tweets, and social link sites. Here an expert can build out a page with the most useful links and highlight news items that he/she knows are important to the community. Everything is tabulated into one easy to scan page. This is all managed via a drop and drop interface.
The short intro video should give more context about how the site works:
http://mostrecent.net/help/introclip/
I'm just getting out of my "soft launch" phase and the JavaScript page I've built has already started making the rounds and gaining regular readers. It is a good example of what I'm going for:
http://mostrecent.net/javascript/
We are still in beta and more features are coming. My eventual business plan is to place ads on the pages with an aggressive editor rev share program. There are a number of pages at various levels of development on the site, but I know for a fact we still need pages covering ruby, java, flash, perl, lisp, tech startups, apple, c# and much more (in case anyone is interested).
Thanks for your time and attention! I look forward to your feedback. <comment><USER2> First of all, I would recommend you spend a bit of time on design. The site is blinding. Maybe tone down your link colors a bit, or don't make them so huge.

I can't say I really understand the problem you are trying to solve. Why would I use mostrecent rather than delicious or squidoo or something else similar. It seems there is a ton of manual tasks required, I manually create links, manually drag them around, etc.

Your intro clip shows functionality (which is why it is under help), but you really need to explain why I would create these links. Why am I an editor, why I am doing this.

Tungle had a great demo (not sure if it is still around), and there was a group that is doing online merging of office and google docs, they also had a great demo video.

Look around and see what you can come up with.

This might be a great idea (it is a great domain name), but you haven't spelled out clearly enough what I would use it for/why it needs to exist.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, the reason "why" is something I've struggled to communicate. The core idea is that if you personally are a power web user and are interested in a topic (let's say apple products) than you probably filter through a lot of feeds, videos, news stories, social links, etc. Much of that content isn't worth paying attention to, but some of it is gold. If you could find the apple "gold" and put it on one page it would be a very valuable and useful page. Consider the fact that any time an Apple story breaks all the major tech blogs fill up with posts and commentary. Little of that commentary is original or useful, but some of it is. If you regularly filter the Apple news feeds to find the good stuff then creating a page to highlight this information would be very useful to folks who don't want to do the same filtering.

<comment><USER2> I agree with that statement, but isn't that what social news sites like this one are for? A group of people with common interest does the filtering for you (also kinda what Squidoo is for if I've got them right).

If I were you, I'd keep refining your idea. I don't personally don't think you've hit the sweet-spot yet.</comment></comment></comment>


Robots Aren't as Smart as You Think - <AUTHOR> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609223/robots-arent-as-smart-as-you-think/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-02-24&utm_campaign=Technology+Review <comment><USER2> They don't have to be. The automation that came in as part of the industrial revolution had no smarts but it changed everything. Add just the ability to make a simple yes/no decision and things will change again by being able to make decisions at lightning speed. Don't kid yourself, whatever "AI" we have now will make a large difference 20,50,100 yrs from now.</comment>


UK law says provide key to encrypted data or go to jail - <AUTHOR> http://www.itworld.com/security/285992/uk-law-says-provide-key-encrypted-data-or-go-jail

<comment><USER2> In light of this, here's a fun paper/idea (+implementation) to consider:

"Neuroscience Meets Cryptography: Designing Crypto Primitives Secure Against Rubber Hose Attacks"

[https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/rubberhose....](https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/rubberhose.html) (summary; full paper (PDF): [http://bojinov.org/professional/usenixsec2012-rubberhose.pdf](http://bojinov.org/professional/usenixsec2012-rubberhose.pdf))

Abstract:

"Cryptographic systems often rely on the secrecy of cryptographic keys given to users. Many schemes, however, cannot resist coercion attacks where the user is forcibly asked by an attacker to reveal the key. These attacks, known as rubber hose cryptanalysis, are often the easiest way to defeat cryptography. We present a defense against coercion attacks using the concept of implicit learning from cognitive psychology. Implicit learning refers to learning of patterns without any conscious knowledge of the learned pattern. We use a carefully crafted computer game to plant a secret password in the participant's brain without the participant having any conscious knowledge of the trained password. While the planted secret can be used for authentication, the participant cannot be coerced into revealing it since he or she has no conscious knowledge of it. We performed a number of user studies using Amazon's Mechanical Turk to verify that participants can successfully re- authenticate over time and that they are unable to reconstruct or even recognize short fragments of the planted secret."

The scheme/system is bound to be imperfect; but it is a nice angle of approach, so to speak, and hopefully we'll have more stuff of this kind in the near future.

 _edit_ / P.S.: from the paper / intro section:

        Readers who want to play with the system can check out the training game at brainauth.com/testdrive

<comment><USER3> It is interesting, but has little to do with the original article, as the police will kindly ask the accused to authenticate, instead of asking for the key.

<comment><USER2> You are right, when you look at it like that, my comment was a bit of a hijack. The threat model in question assumes that the attackers know that the person in question has a way to auth / is part of an encrypted / limited access system, which is a very sensible assumption (and is included in the police/accused scenario in any case.)

I was probably thinking something along the lines of, [this proposed system] + a way for the user to discretely convey to the auth/security system the info that they are being coerced, and the system authenticating them to a bogus user account / set of sensitive data. But this would be cumbersome and very difficult to implement given the design in question, probably.

It would have probably been more relevant to mention encryption systems with plausible deniability - e.g. TrueCrypt's hidden volumes [1] and Rubberhose FS [2].

[1]: [http://www.truecrypt.org/hiddenvolume](http://www.truecrypt.org/hiddenvolume)

[2]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_%28file_system%29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubberhose_%28file_system%29)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4>
      July 13, 2012

A few of us kicked and shouted about this when this was proposed. If you'd like an example of how this is being abused, El Reg has a good article from 2009: [http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/24/ripa_jfl/](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/24/ripa_jfl/)

<comment><USER5> The case is absolutely awful, but he was jailed for _refusing_ to hand over the key, which is (according to the article) exactly what he did. The article is very kind to the suspect here, and nowhere does it even suggest that he had lost the key or otherwise wasn't able to decrypt the files.

<comment><USER6> Since when is refusing to incriminate oneself punishable with jail time? Last time I checked it wasn't.

Refusing to provide encryption keys is the same thing. There might be illegal data, there might not be. It's the duty of the police to prove it, not the accused.

Innocent until proven guilty? Not in the UK.

<comment><USER7> This is the UK not the US. They don't have a 5th amendment.

In the US courts are split on the issue. Some say giving an encryption key is testifying, an act of the mind, and you can't force someone to testify against themselves under the 5th. Others say its like handing over a regular key, which you can be forced to do, because the 5th covers testimony, not everything incriminating. It was intended to prevent forced confessions.

Once you're in front of a court you don't get to keep secrets, with the exception of some narrow protections. This has always been the case in the Anglo-American system.

<comment><USER8> The debate is partly this: forcing you to produce an encryption key /also/ testifies that the drive belongs to you (or you had access to it).

You are not necessarily obligated to testify to that fact for the police, and unless they can demonstrate that the drive belonged to you (or you had access) through some other means, the production of an encryption key is tantamount to forcing that confession.

It's much like if there were a lock on a gun they found on the street: if they can't link the gun to you already, they can't demand you turn over the combination for the lock, because knowing such a combination would be a tacit admission to knowing about the gun.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It gets more interesting than that though. Under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, if you decide to comply and hand over your encryption keys, or to, say, decrypt an email, you are legally obliged to not tell anyone that you have done so.

But there is nothing in the law stopping you from saying up front "the only reason I would revoke my encryption key without explanation is if I'm legally obliged to by the cops under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act". And when you do so, anyone with a brain can draw the relevant inference...

</comment><comment><USER10> It's tempting to think of this as UK-specific issue, but countries like the UK serve as role models.

It might be prudent to start campaigning against the most egregious provisions of RIPA.

</comment><comment><USER11> This is... interesting.

Considering how close UK and US are, it could go like this: raise public awareness about PRISM and the like, prompting people to encrypt their stuff. Now, imprison everyone who has encrypted files.

It's like adding a fluorescent agent in a medium to highlight bacteria.

<comment><USER12> You don't imprison everyone, you imprison a few unlucky citizens and the rest is shitting their pants "it could be me". Fighting a population would escalate, targeting single individuals spreads fear as they are just a few people whose case can be manipulated so the public opinion is divided. A difference between how regimes and 'democratic' countries operate.

<comment><USER13> Exactly. Regimes use direct oppression, while democracies use terrorism against people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> > Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000

Incidentally this is the same law that is also being used to legally justify GCHQ's Tempora operation (the UK's PRISM), according to this Guardian article[1] and discussed on HN previously.

[1] [http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables- secret-...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world- communications-nsa)

</comment><comment><USER15> I think it's quite frustrating that apparently nobody in this comment thread bothered to read the relevant laws.

It is a sufficient defence in law to state that you do not have access to the key file. The only requirements being that you can show some backing and that the prosecution cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you do have access to it.

<comment><USER16> > It is a sufficient defence in law to state that you do not have access to > the key file. The only requirements being that you can show some backing and > that the prosecution cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you do have > access to it.

How do you prove you don't have access to a key to data that isn't actually encrypted? Do you need to keep sets of fake keys for sensor data that you lose, so you have a defense?

<comment><USER15> If the data isn't actually encrypted or it is otherwise not protected information then you wouldn't need to provide a specific defence.

<comment><USER17> Sensor data is indistinguishible from encrypted data. How can some law aplly to one and not be used to the other?

<comment><USER15> Probable cause. If there's no evidence of any kind that the data is actually encrypted data vs random sensor data then there is no way for this law to be invoked.

<comment><USER18> Specifically there has to be evidence that the data had a prior 'intelligible form' before encryption, in the case of a file of white noise there can be no such evidence.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Out of the 100+ files and archives I have encrypted, I remember the passwords of about 25 of them.

I would so go to jail.

<comment><USER20> likewise. There's quite a lot of valuable data I have encrypted in various blobs that I'd love to get back, but have totally forgotten the passphrase. I keep them around because I hope that one day I'll have an epiphany (or bruteforcing/JtR becomes practical)

Bit of a liability though, if I ever come under suspicion of anything. I just can't bear to nuke them though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Would the plausible deniability that comes with using a technique like TrueCrypt's hidden volumes help in a situation like?

<comment><USER22> It might, but to be perfectly honest most people don't keep partitions of random-looking data, or large files containing what looks like it. Your plausible deniability would be of the form, "I was getting ready to make a hidden volume there, filled it with random bits etc., but I never got around to actually making it."

I'm not actually sure that TrueCrypt lets you separate these two aspects of creating a hidden drive, but Linux's tools do. With LVM (to create volumes in volumes) you could create a partition which exists within an encrypted partition, so that it's full with random data to begin with -- but then you could plausibly have forgotten to do anything with it after your computer was up and running.

Large random-looking files are a bit different; if someone were to ask "what's this 10 gig file of random data doing on your hard drive?" it would seem hard to answer them. The only thing that I know people use that much random data for is testing an RNG for its statistical properties.

<comment><USER23> A normal (i.e non hidden) TrueCrypt volume is also by default filled with random data. With a hidden volume you first create the normal volume, which as part of that fills the file with random data, then create the hidden volume inside the normal volume.

One password decrypts the normal volume and another decrypts the hidden volume. However, with just the normal volume password you can't determine the existence of the hidden volume (as long as you take some precautions to prevent leaking of information about the hidden volume)

<comment><USER22> Ah, yes! Sorry, I'd forgotten that those existed as well.

I never really saw a deep potential for those -- the problem being that you cannot open the outer drive for _writing_ without providing the password which enables the inner drive's _reading_ , which means that you're constantly leaking that information whenever you're using the outer drive (which ideally would be relatively frequent, so as to justify that it's not masking a hidden drive. So I'd just totally forgotten that TrueCrypt could do that. My mistake.

<comment><USER24> Huh? Why do you think that? The normal encrypted partition can be used independently of the hidden partition. You just need to be careful to ensure that the free space of the outer partition is enough to contain the hidden, inner partition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Why not just keep all your encrypted files stored on a server that is not in the UK jurisdiction? Just SSH in to access your files.

</comment><comment><USER26> It's an awesome weapon. Plant an encrypted file on somebody's computer, report to the police you saw that person was viewing child porn.

<comment><USER27> If you're going to do several illegal things to get someone in trouble you might as well just place child porn on their computer...

<comment><USER28> There are many ways you could legally put an encrypted file on someone else's computer. But if you use actual KP then you're putting yourself at unnecessary risk. Better to have something innocent so if you get caught before you finish your sabotage you can use the key to decrypt the data and show it was innocent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> here's what you could do. put an encrypted volume onto somebody's computer. call the cops, tell them he's got child porn on it. they seize his computer, he doesn't know the password.

what is the even the fucking point in having a password if the state can just ask you for it?

<comment><USER30> There is never under any circumstances in any modern country a situation where you are allowed to "win" a fight against Constitutional and democratically created laws. Asking "what is the point in having a password if the state can just ask you for it" is like asking "what is the point in having a gun if the state can punish me for killing people with it at will?"

Encryption is there to protect against thieves, hackers, and other unlawful surveillance. Using encryption isn't ever going to make you impervious to the legal discovery process.

<comment><USER29> >"what is the point in having a password if the state can just ask you for it" is like asking "what is the point in having a gun if the state can punish me for killing people with it at will?"

no it's not, bad analogy. in the US the state can't put you in jail for not giving a password (remaining silent).</comment></comment></comment>


Build Muscle Memory With Your Favorite Editor - <AUTHOR> https://www.shortcutfoo.com

<comment><USER2> While I'd definitely advocate getting extremely comfortable with your preferred text editor, this does not seem like a good approach at all. These drills ask you to do a specific command by description ("Move one character right"), which creates an association between that description and the editor action. However, when you're working quickly in an editor, you're thinking at a much higher level than "move one character right"; you're thinking about how to perform some higher-level action involving code navigation or editing.

It would make more sense to present an editor and ask the user to make a specific high-level change (such as refactoring a function), let the user do so, and then analyze their input to figure out whether they could have done so more efficiently. For instance, in vim, did they navigate by hitting hjkl or use a more efficient /search, and did they hit delete/x repeatedly or use something like c2w?

<comment><USER3> Immediately after trying it briefly I had the same thought. I wonder though if you could ever really describe what the "best" way to do something is in Vim. I believe we could be pretty clear that "xxxxx" is less efficient than "5x" or "daw", but in different contexts different ones would be appropriate.

If the goal is just muscle memory for beginners, I think instead you might want to have specific actions at a high level with the goal of using particular families of commands. For example, swap the highlighted two words in the following paragraph using only full-word commands. Then it could have a very clear and expected input for you to use as a goal and you could practice doing it.

<comment><USER2> You can't uniquely identify one method as "best". In particular, there's a limit to how much you want to learn and use specialized commands versus a core set of broadly applicable commands. However, you _can_ identify a set of broadly applicable commands that proficient users should know, and make sure they're _at least_ using those, if not something even more specialized.

For instance, suppose you're sitting in the middle of a line, and you want to add a word five words to the right on the next line down. j5wi or /sometext[enter]i are both sensible ways to navigate. )wi might make sense if the insertion point is just after the end of a sentence. jwwwwwi is not horrific (given that visual counting may not be as fast) but probably deserves a warning as a reminder. jllllllllllllllllllllllllli is well worth warning about.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting, but for me useless. I use vim each and every day, and I think I have a good claim to some muscle memory. But this excercise asks you to press keys with no context. I can navigate with hjkl just fine, but actually struggled to remember which key to press. But in vim I'm fine. Separating the shortcuts from the editor is not a good thing.

<comment><USER5> Exactly, that is what muscle memory is about --- it's an unconscious thing. I find the same is true for typing too - if I actually try to think about where the keys are, I slow down dramatically - and I have absolutely no problem typing at full speed a word I've never seen before, although I don't know what keys I pressed or how to spell it after I did it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The drill told me I was wrong to press ctrl y for redo instead of ctrl shift z. I loaded up visual studio just to make sure I was right. (I was)

</comment><comment><USER7> Tried the Excel ones - seems to work well enough. Except the shortcuts are not the ones I use daily...and Excel has a lot of shortcuts so matching the drills with users might be a hint tricky.

</comment><comment><USER8> I think what's more important is the meta-level skill of noticing when what you're doing should have a shortcut, and then finding or making a shortcut for it.

For textmate, I'd recommend learning just control-command T and the program- level shortcuts (closing many windows, opening the "go to file" dialog box, making a new file, etc).

</comment><comment><USER9> Vim users may find this more useful: [http://vimgolf.com/](http://vimgolf.com/)

</comment><comment><USER10> Emacs, unsurprisingly, has a native key quiz program which is similar though more random. The package is called `keywiz`. I play it when waiting for stuff to compile and have picked up a trick or two.

</comment><comment><USER11> Won't this be useless if you've changed any of the shortcuts?

</comment><comment><USER12> neat, but for things like the editors it'd help to see the action happen along with a description.

example ctrl-f in emacs. along with the description "move forward a word" i'd also like to see (perhaps on the side of the screen) an editor move a word ahead. That way there are two reinforcements; the verbal description and the observed action

also many of the shortcuts trigger browser shortcuts. I don't know a workaround, but it's mighty irritating.

</comment><comment><USER13> Things seems a little buggy. It just told me that alt+b was wrong for backward word in emacs, but that's what it just told me was how to do it in the learning portion of it.

</comment><comment><USER14> This is awesome OP, have been waiting for something like this.

</comment><comment><USER15> really helped me increase my coding speed by honing my resharper shortcut skills</comment>


The Tao of HashiCorp - <AUTHOR> https://hashicorp.com/blog/tao-of-hashicorp.html

<comment><USER2> Not listed in their philosophies, but consistently embodied in their work, is excellent documentation. They seem to treat good documentation as important as the rest of their concerns, and it's not unnoticed. Others should take note.</comment>


What is an idea worth? - <AUTHOR>

Here is a common situation for starting projects.  One person comes to the table with an idea, and one or more people join them.
What is the idea worth?  If there are 3 people, how could you split up things from the beginning?  Is the idea worth anything?
On the same note, if someone has some domain knowledge and contacts in the field, how should that play into the first split?
I have discussed this with several people, and their opinions have been wildly varied, so let me know your thoughts! <comment><USER2> Ideas by themselves are not worth very much. Its really about how the idea is executed that matters. Apparently ideas are not worth much very much in the legal sense either, unless backed by a patent.

If you are just starting out you might want to consider an equal 1/3 split between everyone. For our startup, I've been doing most of the work up until now, but I still insist that we each have equal share. I want everyone to be accountable and feel responsible for the companies success. Basically, no one should ever feel less obligated due to a lower ownership percentages; we all have to work our asses off 100% in order to win. Even small changes to the initial split could alter this balance. At least that is my opinion.

<comment><AUTHOR> I also put the most emphasis on execution when it comes to starting off. I think ideas really are a dime a dozen.

I guess the trickier question comes when someone has a lot more domain knowledge and some contacts in the field. This knowledge can translate into a "good idea" that is solving a problem in the industry. How much does this factor in?

<comment><USER2> I guess ideally each person would contribute something valuable to the team (maybe something the others dont have), making the even 1/3 split justified. The person you talk about would be contributing their domain knowledge.

If one persons contribution is low to point that an even split couldn't be justified, then I would just make sure that you really need them as a co- founder, as apposed to an early employee. If things are close though I would try to justify the even split so everyone is on the same plane.

In my opinion its just not worth getting greedy over small percentages, if it could compromise the success of the team or cause internal strife. The following quote comes to mind: "I'd rather have a slice of the watermelon than a whole grape."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> > I think ideas really are a dime a dozen.

But really _good_ ideas are rare.

I understand that an idea not backed by an implementation is near useless, but the current mantra about the value of ideas is sort of like saying that cars are a dime a dozen, and it's the driver that matters.

All other things being equal, though, your raw materials (cars or ideas or what have you) _do_ matter.

Current patent nonsense aside, there are often good reasons why people do not want others to know exactly what they are planning or doing, or want a means to restrict others from attempting their own implementation.

<comment><USER4> I don't think most people with good ideas are capable of recognizing whether they are good or really good ideas, the market gets to decide.

Except for me, I know I have really good ideas. ;)

<comment><USER3> > I don't think most people with good ideas are capable of recognizing whether > they are good or really good ideas,

Alan Kay said (more or less) that point of view is worth 80 IQ points. A good team needs people who can see the different angles to other's ideas, and help prod or reshape or prune them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wouldn't claim more equity for being the idea giver. It is hard enough to find co-founders as it is, so I figure giving away my idea for free is the price I have to pay to convince other people to join me. Hopefully we will still all get rich, so who cares.

It would annoy me if the co-founders were less dedicated to the idea than I am. In that case I would try to negotiate more equity from the beginning.

<comment><USER6> I totally agree with this. A good co-founder is way more important than a few more equity points because it was your idea. It might be different if you've spent 6 months on your own building it, though.

I disagree about the dedication--I wouldn't even bother working with a cofounder who wasn't as dedicated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Unless we're talking about a patented technology, IMO you shouldn't even consider the initial idea when discussing equity.

If I were in a startup, I'd want it to be a total free-for-all where new ideas are valued. Not one where the older ideas are considered to be worth more. That's totally backwards -- your ideas about the business are likely to change and become _more_ valuable as you gain experience and talk with customers. And unless you prefer co-founders who treat it as a 9 to 5 job where they are mere implementors, they will be coming up with many of the important ideas too.

The worth of the initial idea is measured in the fact that you got other people to even commit to the project. Call that a victory and move on.

<comment><USER4> Exactly. For what I consider to be the best idea I ever had, I was able to attract three very talented people to apply to Y Combinator with me, with a 25/25/25/25 split. The value of my idea was that it made people excited in its potential and my 25% was only valuable with the contributions of my partners.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If I might suggest a simpler question?

"How do I value this idea maximize my odds of getting genuinely rich from this venture?"

The question isn't "how much is this worth?" at all. It's "how do I price this to maximize the odds of success and the dollar worth of my share."

If you do very well and sell for $10m, the _practical_ difference between 33% and 50% in terms of your quality of life is quite small.

On the other hand, a feeling of uneven split between founders, particularly as the start up moves further and further from the basic concept you started with, is a potential contributor to a "50% of nothing is nothing" situation.

Once the game starts, it doesn't matter who put what on the table: if you're not actively getting screwed get your head down and focus on making what you "own" worth something, rather than worrying about how the loot is divided.

<comment><USER9> Smart way of thinking about it, that gets to the heart of the question, rather than repeating the trite 'worth nothing', which is obviously going to piss off the idea guy, and create problems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> "What is the idea worth?" -- Not much really. People have ideas all the damn time, but it is execution that counts. Maybe %2-%5 of the company, MAX.

That 2-5% is worth only if you come with something novel + a plan and strategy how to make it happen, and some contacts-help.

If all you say let's "do a music application for kids under 12", that is worth nada.

</comment><comment><USER11> I don't understand what all these people are talking about. A good idea is extremely valuable. A bad idea is a vicious liability.

The problem is the marketplace. Most people aren't very good at telling if an idea is good or not. They're likely to value such an idea low. You don't really want to cofound with these people.

However, brilliant people are likely to have ideas of their own. Ideas that they'd like to work on. One can rationalize an even split, then, by considering an even split as payment for working on _your_ idea, and not their's. Brilliant people would probably rather do their own thing -- you need to give them creative and strategic input, and you need them to feel like partners.

They just have to be good. I'm not going to give someone I'm feeling shaky on an equal stake in my company -- I wouldn't advise this for anyone.

</comment><comment><USER12> Ideas are worth (almost) nothing. In the information age there are as many ideas as there were rocks in the stone age. It's having the ingenuity and work ethic to make something out of the (rock) idea that will separate you from everyone else who has a worthless idea.

</comment><comment><USER13> A mentor once told me "talk is cheap until you hire a lawyer", that said ideas alone without a definitive plan on how to tackle it followed by actual execution is nothing but hot air.

</comment><comment><USER14> > What is the idea worth?

"The idea"? How about an example of an intrinsically valuable idea that, by itself, is enough to build a biz?

Take google. "Use citations to rank web pages" is not all that valuable an idea. Figuring out how to do so is more valuable (albeit dependent), but still not enough to build a biz.

If "the idea" is trivially executed AND "enough", then it's a big contribution. More likely, it's a signpost.

</comment><comment><USER15> If the work is of a commodity nature (ie something a quick visit to rentacoder could accomplish) then the idea is worth a lot, relatively. But most ideas aren't worth much. It depends. Ask yourself: Does my idea fit one of these molds:

Social networking for X.

A combination of google maps and Y.

An online app to let you keep a personal list of Z.

...then your idea isn't worth much.

</comment><comment><USER6> I think the idea itself isn't worth much intrinsicially--there are indeed infinitely decent ones out there. But the idea directly fuels passion, which is extremely valuable.

</comment><comment><USER16> consider equity as a reward for risk taken. if people want more equity, they should take more risk (drop out of school etc)

</comment><comment> daniel-cussen It is one of many necessary but insufficient conditions. Like having a clean criminal record when applying to college.

</comment><comment><USER17> I believe an idea is the most important part of a startup. However the idea is useless in the wrong hands, A paint brush in most peoples hands does not mean much,but in an artists hands it's very powerful. Never the less the artists is nothing with out the brush.

please visit www paintbrush com for all your brushing needs

</comment><comment><USER18> The person with the idea should get at least 50% of the company.

<comment><USER19> You don't really believe this do you? Everyone has ideas, very few have the skills to execute those ideas, execution has the value, not the idea.</comment></comment>


Kinesis Advantage 2 - <AUTHOR> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ <comment><USER2> If you're looking for a mechanical ergonomic keyboard that you can also easily take with you, I suggest taking a look at Atreus[0], a 42-key column-staggered keyboard.

I got one a while back. Haven't gotten around to publishing my build log, but building the keyboard was a lot of fun.

With the somewhat steep learning curve out of the way, I've been really enjoying it and gone are the days of wrist pain.

Oh, and I'm in no way affiliated with Phil or the project, just a very happy user dropping his 2¢ here.

[0]: [https://atreus.technomancy.us](https://atreus.technomancy.us)

<comment><USER3> Been eying these up for a while now. Also the firmware is completely open which is nice.

<comment><USER4> Absolutely; I'm using a slightly modified layout myself. Both the design and the firmware(s) are free software:

\- Design (GPLv3): [https://github.com/technomancy/atreus](https://github.com/technomancy/atreus)

\- Current firmware (GPLv2+): [https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus](https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus)

\- Older firmware, great for learning (GPLv3): [https://github.com/technomancy/atreus- firmware](https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Originally bought because of wrist pain, I've had the kinesis advantage for 16 years, I'm on my third one and I've worn out keys on each one from so much use. Luckily they shipped me new switches for free and allowed me to switch the myself (at my request due to timing). Fantastic service and product. I really do wear them out.

With that said, all three exhibited the sticky modifier problem. I'm used to it but it always made me wonder if the internals were going bad.

In March I preordered [https://shop.keyboard.io](https://shop.keyboard.io)

I'll be very interested to compare, and if it isn't as good or better, I won't hesitate to order the updated kinesis advantage.

<comment><USER6> That looks sort of interesting, but as a programmer, the awkward positioning of tab and return, and the need to use modifier keys to get the directional arrows, {}, and [] just completely kills it for me.

<comment><USER7> No modifier keys necessary for the directional arrows, if you mean the ones that move the cursor? They're under your pointer and middle finger on each side. Having return key (and backspace, space, and mod keys) always directly under your strongest fingers ends up feeling really natural and efficient, in my experience.

<comment><USER6> I was talking about the [https://shop.keyboard.io](https://shop.keyboard.io) thingy.

<comment><USER8> The firmware is open source and you should be able to remap the tab, return and any other key you'd like anywhere you please.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This keyboard style is absolutely amazing. I had pre-carpal style pain in my hands for years and tried every other keyboard out there, including all the ergo ones that came highly recommended. This is the only one that actually stopped the pain for me. 10+ years of satisfaction here - I've got one at every PC I use regularly now.

The new non-mushy F-keys are a nice improvement, but honestly not sure that's worth replacing my existing ones since they're built like tanks already.

<comment><USER10> Same here. I thought I'd have to change careers. This keyboard makes it possible for me to continue coding.

I am wondering, does anyone here use the foot switches that kinesis makes and in what configuration?

<comment><USER11> Three pedal one here. Bought by accident but now happily use it with middle one to switch modes using Karabiner and outer two either Cmd/Mouseclick or pgup/down, left/right, scroll, space left/right etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm waiting for ultimate hacking keyboard in September [1]

[1] [http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/](http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/)

<comment><USER13> Why stagger the keys?

<comment><USER14> As a ergodox user I can answer that.

While yes the matrix layout is _way_ better, the downside is that if you ever type on a standard keyboard you are immediately frustrated. I imagine it would depend on your working environment, but for me the combination of using a laptop, working with co-workers, and then using my desk with my awesome ergodox means that I am often fighting my own muscle memory to continue typing at a high rate of speed.

There is something to be said to conforming to what most people have. Splitting the keyboard gives me a good compromise, I can still have my hands in relaxed positions, and while I am not going to be as fast as when I am on just the ergodox ,I gain by being much faster working in the other environments I often find myself in.

<comment><USER15> Personally, I've found that it takes about five minutes for my hands to adjust when I switch between ergodox and laptop. (Basically working at home vs in a cafe). I'm a relatively speedy typist in either mode, but it does take adjusting to swap modes.

That said, this is why I am not using colemak on my ergodox- I dont want to further distance the two keyboards.

<comment><USER16> I used to type on Dvorak at home and Qwerty at work and switching between the two was no issue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> For those that may wonder "What's the point of a weird-looking keyboard?":

Engelbart's Violin [http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861](http://www.loper- os.org/?p=861)

<comment><USER18> Thank you for the link; it and its references were interesting reads.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Personally I am waiting for the KeyMouse[0], a physically-split keyboard with integrated mouse as part of the keyboard parts, so no need to lift hand from keyboard to perform mousely duties.

Hopefully it is a great product, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have taken it a step further and made the keyboards at an angle to mimic natural arm positions.

[0]: [http://www.keymouse.com/](http://www.keymouse.com/)

<comment><USER20> It's a little overengineered for my taste.

I would be very happy if microsoft on the Ergo 4000 instead of including a stupid, absolutely useless "zoom knob" thing just put a trackpoint there!

[http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg](http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg)

what a bafflingly missed opportunity.

<comment><USER21> I'd pay good money for an Ergo keyboard with mechanical switches. The last decade or so of MS keyboards have been rubber-domed disasters. I cannot type on the things.

I pre-ordered a couple KeyboardIO keyboards, and maybe I can make them work well with a little firmware noodling. Looks like November or later . . . .

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I code the CODE keyboard right now [https://codekeyboards.com](https://codekeyboards.com) And I especially like the hardware switches to remap some keys. But the Kindesis SmartSet Programming seems like another level.

</comment><comment><USER23> The main problem with _buying_ the right keyboard is that you almost never can try it out (i.e. in a store). There are multiple variables, besides the general ergonomic question, mainly:

You want to know how it _feels_ to type, you want to know how it _sounds_ to type (mostly: is it quiet or will you get on your co-worker's nerves?).

I have just bought a Logitech in a store that did not allow me to take it out of the box to try it out. Once I've tried it out at home, I wanted to throw it in the trash immediately. F*ck them for selling like that.

So, if you're looking for a start-up idea: Why not set up an online store with ALL brands (maybe focus on the premium segment which is ergo keyboards, first). Then you ship the customer keyboards to test at home. Once the customer's happy, he returns the last test keyboard and gets a brand new version of it.

<comment><USER24> If you're in the US Amazon generally lets you return anything for any reason. "I tried it and I didn't like it" would be fine with them. It makes the process a bit slower, with shipping and all, but you could purchase all your candidate keyboards together and then return the one(s) you don't like.

<comment><USER25> Up until they decide you've returned too many things and they cancel all your accounts with them without recourse.

As with most stores, I think Amazon returns are meant for actual problems and cases when things really don't work out, not for trying out hardware.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I have two of the original Kinesis Advantage keyboards, one for work and one for home. They have saved my programming career.

</comment><comment><USER27> Given the usual price multiples, this is going to be a nearly 500 euro keyboard in Europe (inc. VAT).

E.g. Kinesis Advantage Pro in US: $359 ( [http://www.kinesis- ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/](http://www.kinesis- ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/) )

In Holland: 390 Euro ex VAT ( [https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage- toetsenbord](https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord) )

So let's say for the Advantage 2 the $369 price becomes 400 Euro. Add 21% VAT and you end up paying about 484 euro, without shipping of course.

Ouch.

<comment><USER28> You can usually get it for around 10% off either when they run a sale or off Amazon. But yes, they are expensive, but they also age well and Kinesis is great with support. My first keyboard lasted 8 years before a couple of the switches started to go. Contacting them, they gave me the option of shipping me new switches for free (requires soldering) or buy a new key-well (the curved circuit boards) for around $30.

<comment><USER27> The V1's don't age that well, though. My F-keys were starting to fail within a couple of years. They are rubber dome keys with a little conduction graphite layer on them, like remote control keys.

Granted, the new version _should_ not have this problem.

<comment><USER29> The key with the V1's is to remap keys you use frequently from the f-keys to something else, but if you use them a lot V2 will be a big upgrade for you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I have used the original edition of this keyboard for some years now, and it is amazing. By far the best keyboard I have ever used. While I prefer the Cherry Blues on my older Das Keyboard, the layout of the Kinesis Advantage is incredibly comfortable and quite efficient. It does take some remapping to make it work well with Emacs, but that's all done with the keyboard firmware itself (i.e. no driver software needed).

<comment><USER29> If you want to solder in cherry blues yourself you might be able to buy the keyboard without the switches. Kinesis is good about things like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Does it fix the shift bug that plagues the model 1? Every user I have talked has had the issue but the company denies it is an issue even though we can reproduce it on many different keyboards, different hardware, and os's.

I am very interested in getting this, but I don't want to do it if this issue hasn't been resolved.

<comment><USER32> > ...but the company denies it is an issue...

It sounds like the person you spoke with wasn't familiar with the product. They've been aware of the problem for years. It's mentioned in the manual [1] and on their website [2].

[1] [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/06/conto...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/06/contoured-ps2-manual.pdf) \- Page 28.

[2] [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical- support/troubl...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical- support/troubleshoooting-advantage/) \- "Weird behavior with Advantage keyboard".

<comment><USER33> Ah! Thank you! I've had this issue from time to time. I thought it is probably a software thing, not the keyboard.

Thanks to the link you've sent I now have a simple solution - tap both shift keys at once.. Great!

<comment><USER32> No problem. :)

You can also use _< Stuck Key> \+ <Program>_ in cases where you only have instance of the stuck key. Alt or super in the default layout, for example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I had RSI issues, and jumped into using a Kinesis Advantage and switching to Dvorak. I eventually went back to using my laptops keyboard, and still use Dvorak. I haven't had any RSI issues in the last 6+ years! I highly recommend switching to a Kinesis if you have hand/wrist pain and still need to work.

</comment><comment><USER35> For those that prefer a split keyboard, I highly recommend Matias Ergo Pro.

The keys are very nice, more importantly, it allows me to adjust how far apart each halves of the keyboard should be.

It seriously alleviated my shoulder ache as I can finally type with my arms open.

</comment><comment><USER36> Everyone always focuses on keyboards for RSI. While a great keyboard helps, removing the pressure off your wrists makes a massive difference. [https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable- Arm...](https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable- Armrest_Silver/dp/B00OFNFPMG) These may make you look awkward at the office, but it takes all the strain out of your hands and wrists. Your weight is now on your forearm. Leaving your hands free to move. They articulate in every direction allowing full "wax on" "wax off" motions.

</comment><comment><USER37> I can recommend the ErgoDox. It's somwhat similar and DIY, but much cheaper. For mine I payed not much over 100€.

<comment><USER31> Link: [https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-ez.com/)

<comment><USER38> 295$ is not that much cheaper.

<comment><USER37> The PCB is only 35€. And i had most other parts already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Here is "What's new" info:

1) Cherry ML mechanical function keys

Original Advantage: Mushy rubber function keys. Advantage2: You asked for it and we delivered. The function key row now features low-force Cherry ML mechanical key switches that offer a satisying, tactile key press plus unmatched reliability and durability.

2) Whopping 2 MB of onboard memory

Original Advantage: 2 KB of onboard memory (Advantage Pro had 4 KB). Advantage2: The Advantage2 has 2 MB of memory, as in megabytes, which is 1000x more memory than the standard Advantage. Now you have an enormous amount of space to record macros and build custom layouts.

3) Heavy duty macros & increased capacity

Original Advantage: Up to 48 "short" macros (28 characters or less) or 24 "long" macros (58 characters or less) Advantage2: Each custom layout built with the SmartSet engine can now support 100+ "heavy-duty" macros of more than 200+ characters in each. SmartSet allows you to create even more powerful macros through the direct editing process. Insert delays into macro playback of either 125ms or 500ms, or trigger different actions on the press and release of a given macro trigger.

4) View and edit layouts

Original Advantage: When you remapped a key or recorded a macro you had no easy way to track you changes or perform any updates. Advantage2: With SmartSet, all layouts are saved and stored as basic .txt files which can be opened with any text editing program on any operating systems. Open the text file and directly edit your remaps or macros. Even insert new actions using many standard USB hex codes.

5) Share and backup layouts

Original Advantage: There was no way to share or backup layouts. You had to keep a separate crib sheet if you ever wanted to rebuild your custom layout. Advantage2: Each layout is stored as a basic text file making them easy to save, backup or even share with a friend. The days of rebuilding your custom layout from scratch are over.

6) Status Report

Original Advantage: It was easy to forget which layout was active, which thumb key mode you were in and other keyboard settings. Advantage2: Thanks to the new Status Report feature, you can quickly "print-to-screen" a Status Report showing you basic information about the active layout include the number of key remaps and macros, and your thumb key mode.

7) Adjust macro playback speed

Original Advantage: All macros played back at one speed. Advantage2: Choose from 9 different macro playback speeds. Set the playback speed globally for all macros or set it individually for a specific macro to optimize performance. Slow playback down to 4.2 characters per second ("CPS"), or speed it up to a blazing fast 250 CPS- equivalent to typing 3,000 words per minute!

8) Hotkey layouts

Original Advantage: Only supported one custom layout. Advantage2: With the Advantage2, you can now create dozens of custom hotkey layouts for either QWERTY or Dvorak and access them with a simple 2-key combination: Program + the assigned hotkey.

9) Native Dvorak

Original Advantage: When you switched out of Dvorak you lost your settings. When you remapped keys in your Dvorak layout you did so in QWERTY. Advantage2: Dvorak is no longer a second-class citizen. Dvorak users get all the same functionality as QWERTY users, and each custom Dvorak layout is saved to the keyboard so it's easy to move back-and-forth or share your keyboard. And when you're remapping in Dvorak, you no longer have to translate from QWERTY.

10) Easy firmware upgrades

Original Advantage: Firmware was not upgradable. Advantage2: When you invest in an expensive keyboard, you expect it to last. Thanks to the SmartSet engine you can upgrade the firmware when new versions become available. Firmware updates take only seconds and don't require opening up the keyboard or downloading a scary executable file (.exe) from the internet.

11) Kinesis Blue Home Row

Advantage2 features a more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue.

<comment><USER40> What are some examples what the macro function can be used for? In many cases the macros I need are so specific such that I define them on the fly in VIM (i.e. q [a-z] and then q to stop, finally @ [a-z] for playback). Perhaps I simply don't write enough for macros to take advantage of more permanent macros.

<comment><USER41> I'm not a programmer, I'm a manager that spends far too many hours a day glued to Microsoft Outlook (kill me, please). I found the macros useful simply to repeat often typed phrases or keystrokes. So for example, I bound F3 to the expression "Best regards, zafiro17" followed by Alt-S which is bound by default to "Send" in Outlook. So I'd write the body of an email, then hit F3 and the keyboard would add my closing and hit send.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I have been using the Kinesis Freestyle on my Mac with the VIP accessory pads and it is very comfortable. I place the two parts of the keyboard on the sides of my 15" MBP.

<comment><USER43> I have the Freestyle 2 (which I reviewed here [0]) and it's great. My wrists are so much more relaxed. Every time I have to use a traditional keyboard now I cringe. It's also helped me improve touch-typing.

Unfortunately, I have not found a good solution for a mice. The Magic Trackpad, even turned around in negative slope, is just not good enough when there's a bit too much drag&drop.

[0] [http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis- freestyle2-multich...](http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis- freestyle2-multichannel.html)

<comment><USER44> I use a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse or trackpad. Holding the stylus pencil-style is very comfortable once you get used to it.

<comment><USER45> I use a Wacom for some tasks, but I find it even worse than a mouse if you are switching back and forth a lot. For drag and drop I recommend the Contour Design Rollermouse Red. The downside is it doesn't pair well with a deep keyboard, as it wants to replace any wrist rest.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Along with everyone else here, I had the same issue with my wrists, took a gamble, and got the keyboard. I haven't looked back. It's awesome.

I let a co-worker borrow it, because he was having wrist issues, and he had the complete opposite effect with him. Wrist was turned down when he said it needed to be turned to the side. So he tried it for 15 minutes and returned it to me. So I guess it's not for everyone.

</comment><comment><USER47> How long does it take to get used to using something like this?

Is it worth the effort?

How does it compare to a natural keyboard (the slightly more normal looking split one by Microsoft)?

<comment><USER48> It took me about 2 weeks until I was up to normal speed. It was probably a month before I could use it with zero difficulty. I used ktouchtype to train on it.

The thing is if you have any idiosyncrasies in your touch typing, the Kinesis will _not_ forgive them. The way that the keys are stepped down into different levels makes it difficult to use the "wrong" finger to reach the desired key. Of course, ultimately, that's for the better. It will just take you a little bit of time to unlearn some of the not-quite-official typing habits you may've developed over the years.

I absolutely believe it's worth the effort. Wrist pain is almost never an issue for me anymore. The Kinesis is highly durable and cleans up very well.

I used the "Natural" keyboard for years before I switched to the Kinesis. There's no comparison. I had to replace the MS keyboard twice a year or more. Been on the same Kinesis for about 4 years and there are no signs of it wearing out.

The only downside is that sometimes there are weird firmware issues that sit unreconciled. For example, there is some incompatibility with the Intel USB 3.0 bus, Windows 7 (at the time, Win8 was the latest OS, and it didn't affect Win8; don't know if it affects Win10 or not), and the Kinesis. It simply isn't detected under that OS. No problems on other versions of Windows, other OSes, or other USB busses. This meant I couldn't use it on a Bootcamp'd MacBook Pro. Kinesis was apparently unable to get Intel to cooperate in debugging the issue with their chipset drivers.

That said, it's an investment that I enthusiastically endorse if you're willing to commit to a couple weeks of learning curve (and since we're talking about the health of the hands needed to continue our careers here, you definitely should be).

<comment><USER49> I had a very similar experience with Advantage 2. 1 week to be mostly usable, and 1 month for the keyboard to disappear from my mind and melt into the flow.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I tried out the original and found it to be incredibly frustrating. I'm a fast typist, used to MS Natural keyboards,and I constantly felt like my fingers were "tripping" over the keys. I'm sure part of that is just getting used to the arrangement but I really felt like I was putting more strain on my wrists trying to move my fingers more deliberately to avoid hitting other keys.

<comment> loup-vaillant Slow down.

The asymmetry you are used to with the (un)Natural keyboards induced reflexes that no longer work with the contoured. For instance, to hit many keys in staggered keyboard such as Microsoft's, you have to twist your wrist a little. If you counter this natural twist (instead of not twisting at all), this contracts your wrist even more than it used to.

So slow down, it _will_ get more natural over time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Anyone know if the firmware allows you to program keys to emulate a mouse? I use this often with tmk_keyboard [https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard](https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard) firmware and found it to be just good enough to never use a mouse and keep the keyboard on your lap which is much better for my shoulders.

<comment><USER52> No, but contact the support ( [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical- support/contac...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical- support/contact-tech/) ) they are wonderful.

<comment><USER29> Agreed, this could be a feature that could be added if there is enough demand with the firmware.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I bought the Advantage1 in 2008 and it's been one of my best keyboards ever since then. It's extremely comfortable. I wrote up a few paragraphs about my impressions here:

[http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in- Sty...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Style-with- the-Kinesis.html)

The one common complaint is that they had used rubber keys instead of mechanical for the function keys. Looks like that issue is addressed in this second edition. For sheer key build quality, the Totally Ergonomic Keyboard is better. But the Kinesis is more ergonomically comfortable, and includes a couple of USB slots so it can function as a hub (few other ergo keyboards do that).

I won't buy this new version because my own Ergo will probably last another 20 years - it's built that strongly! - and the rubber function keys don't bother me a bit.

<comment><USER45> Maybe this is new, but the TECK has terrible build quality IME. I have been using two (home and work) and both have accrued keys that don't work properly ---some don't respond reliably, or at all, and some double-press. These are both Cherry browns. Firmware tweaks haven't helped.

<comment><USER29> I heard that there were some issues with the solder joints on the switches with the the TECK. When I went over to being a Kinesis user I had considered these but decided to go with the Advantage......am very glad I did.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> I was lucky enough to find a local-ish store that had in-store demos available. They were nice enough to let me go in and try one out for an hour or so.

I'm quite happy with my MS Ergo 4000, but I always wanted to try out the Kinesis. It does take a fair amount of getting use to. Initially feels quite funny to type on. The deal breaker for me at the time is that too many of the symbol keys are not in their usual locations, which is more significant when programming than writing prose.

Here in the Antipodes the markup on these things is ridiculous (e.g., AU$550/US$420) so you really have to want one.

</comment><comment><USER54> Another keyboard to look at is the Keyboardio Model 01: [https://shop.keyboard.io/](https://shop.keyboard.io/)

They're not shipping yet; as of their last update, estimated ship date is Nov. 1. I have a pair on order, but I haven't had a chance to try one, so I can only hope they work as nice as they look :-)

</comment><comment><USER55> You could always 3D print your own one...

[https://github.com/adereth/dactyl- keyboard](https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard)

Bonus points for having used Clojure to design it

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4)

</comment><comment><USER56> Hey Kinesis, if you're reading here, I'd love to see a controller upgrade for the original Advantage to get around the sticky keys bug. It's not even a problem to lose the built-in USB hub. My two old Advantage keyboards are trucking along just fine otherwise!

</comment><comment><USER57> These keyboards are amazing. Hands/wrists stopped hurting after ~1 week of switching.

<comment><USER58> I had a similar experience. Increasing pain levels gradually drove me away from from pursuing programming projects outside of work. First I tried the Kinesis Freestyle2, and while the pain got better, my hands could not adjust to the additional degree of freedom from having two keyboard pieces. Got the Advantage, and now I can code again for hours without any wrist pain. Highly recommended.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I was a beta tester of this. AMA

</comment><comment><USER27> FINALLY real key switches for the F-keys. I have been making do without them for at least 7 years now, since they gave out after only a couple of years on my Kinesis Ergo Elan.

Still using the same old plastic moulds with the weird off-centre label I see.

<comment><USER59> Where do you see that? The photos look like the same rubbery things they are using in V1?

<comment><USER29> I beta tested the Advantage 2. They replaced the rubber keys with mechanical ones using the same size for the switch.

<comment><USER60> Anything else that's diff? I almost never use my f keys do its not a big deal for me.

<comment><USER29> The firmware with the ability to update it and do a lot more crazy stuff with the macros etc.. I'm not a heavy macro person but do a decent amount of remapping and liked that. Also the stuck shift/modifier keys has been fixed.

If you currently have one, are happy with your setup and don't really use the f keys it might not make as much sense to do an upgrade. If you need another unit, have killed your current unit, or want to make the switch I would recommend this over the previous models.

<comment><USER60> Frustratingly I just had a new one ordered for a new job. I can't wait for the pre-order, I need one now :(

The stuck modifier key issue I didn't know was universal, but is annoying. I'm surprised they can't do a firmware update for that? Does it really need a new model to fix it after all these years? I've had the stuck modifier issue from an advantage from 2008.

<comment><USER29> The problem is that the previous version did not have firmware that could be flashed and I'm guessing that they had other micro controller issues. In all honesty if you run into this issue once a day you are probably running into it a lot. I currently have a classic and a advantage and it's not a huge deal. The difference between having a advantage 1 vs advantage 2 is much smaller than the difference between having a non advantage (well style keyboard) versus something else.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Is it possible for Canadians to buy this? (Or those outside the US in general?)

<comment><USER56> I've bought a few of the model 1 from [http://www.ergocanada.com/](http://www.ergocanada.com/) in the past. Be prepared for a hefty markup and non-trivial shipping costs. It might be cheaper to buy in from the US in the end.

You might also have some luck contacting vendors that sell other Kinesis gear and see if they'll special order it for you at a good price. [http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis](http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis)

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> A macro can now contain a whole program in case you like compiling fresh

</comment><comment><USER63> Wonder if this is worth buying over the advantage 1 in Canada with additional costs of getting it shipped over the borders. Can get the older model for $400 CDN on amazon.

</comment><comment><USER64> I have one of these on every computer I own. It's amazing. It saved my career. I physically cannot type on a regular keyboard anymore.

</comment><comment><USER65> Wrist damage will be the new back damage.

</comment><comment><USER66> yeah, that's about 1/3 of my salary...

<comment><USER67> They are far from the only ergonomic keyboard in town. The Microsoft Natural is decent and about 20% of the price.

<comment><USER49> After you try the Kinesis Advantage, the Microsoft Natural feels like a joke. The length of your fingers is distributed like a parabola and the Kinesis design is the parabola that fits over your fingers to minimize the travel distance of _all_ your fingers. Conversely, the Microsoft Natural keyboard is actually a parabola that goes _away_ from your finger to actually _increase_ the travel distance needed for your ring, pinky, and index fingers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Why is that thing so bloody expensive? The cost of parts for a keyboard are measure in pennies, for the most part. The manufacturing is ridiculously cheap.

So, with all of that, what justifies a $350 price tag on any keyboard these days?

<comment><USER29> I've had conversations with Kinesis about this. Even though there is a enthusiast community there is not enough of a demand to send manufacturing overseas. Also, because of the key well design those PCB's need to be soldered by hand rather than wave soldering them. The net effect is that they are hand made in the United States which is why the cost is higher.

<comment><USER69> It's the same thing with Maltron keyboards, which have a similar 3D sculpted layout for some of their models. They are individually hand-wired.

On the other hand, when you look at the cost of RSI they are well worth the cost when you consider the alternative. I tried out the Maltron and it didn't help me (it's not carpal tunnel), but I get along well with the Kinesis Freestyle 2. Worth every penny, I got one for home as well, and it helps greatly. When the alternative is finding another career, it's pretty inexpensive all considered.

<comment><USER29> When you factor in how long these things last it ends up being a wash... a Kinesis will last 8-10 years vs most which start to have issues after 2.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


EC2 us-east is down - <AUTHOR>

and half internet with it I guess <comment><USER2> [https://twitter.com/Axcelx/status/616058414746202113](https://twitter.com/Axcelx/status/616058414746202113)

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm super curious to hear technical info how this kind of widescale network partition comes to happen. It doesn't seem based on geography since for about 30 minutes I was unable to reach us-east from MonkeyBrains in SF, but had no trouble from my Dallas, TX VPS.

</comment><comment><USER4> From DigitalOcean's status page for SFO:

"We have located and routed around a West Coast US TeliaSonera backbone problem. All latency should be back to normal levels and we'll continue to monitor the Telia repair progress."

<comment><USER5> Possibly related to another fiber cut this morning: [https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/outages/2015-June/007911.h...](https://puck.nether.net/pipermail/outages/2015-June/007911.html)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> and as usual: [http://status.aws.amazon.com/](http://status.aws.amazon.com/) is either not reachable or all green :D

<comment><USER6> it's definitely down for me. weird that aws status shows all green

<comment><USER7> it seems like it always is green even when they have issues, perhaps a static page? ;>

<comment><USER8> You joke, but static pages are actually great for status pages, since they handle load surges very well and have few moving parts to break. That said, it looks like the Amazon status page pulls [http://status.aws.amazon.com/data.json](http://status.aws.amazon.com/data.json) , and I've also noticed that it's almost always all green even when stuff is broken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Do we know if this is related to the Beats 1 issues people are currently reporting?

"Update 2 5:35 p.m. Pacific Time: It appears the Beats 1 radio station is currently experiencing an outage and is unavailable for some listeners. Attempting to play the station results in an unknown error." [http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/30/beats-1-radio-now- availa...](http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/30/beats-1-radio-now-available/)

<comment><USER10> I think so. Apple Music streams are working though so they don't seem to be using AWS for everything.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Seeing it bounce up/down from the UK... brief moments of "IT WORKS" followed by sadness. Long night ahead I think :(

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> something tells me this is related: [https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/look- before-you-leap-the-co...](https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/look-before-you- leap-the-coming-leap-second-and-aws/) (just remember reading it, can't open it from EU)

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm having no problems with us-east, accessed from Southern California and Texas.

</comment><comment><USER4> Possibly a peering problem? I can reach AWS and us-east systems from a different host running off of he.net.

</comment><comment><USER13> So that's why I cannot access Reddit..

</comment><comment><USER14> coinbase.com, circle.com, reddit.com <\- all down for me. using Tor it is all good though :D

</comment><comment><USER15> And we're back.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> and it seems to be working again from europe now

</comment><comment><USER16> Back now.

</comment><comment><USER16> Verified.

</comment><comment><USER14> the internet is back</comment>