Implementing a Clonable Network Stack in the FreeBSD Kernel (PDF, 2003) - <AUTHOR> https://papers.freebsd.org/2003/zec-vimage.files/zec-vimage-paper.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> This is the original 2003 paper describing the VIMAGE virtualized networking system, finally enabled by default as of FreeBSD 12.0, and used in this current front page post: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23004061](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23004061)</comment>


Autistic Burnout: The Cost of Masking and Passing (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://boren.blog/2017/01/26/autistic-burnout-the-cost-of-coping-and-passing/ <comment><USER3> "Common life strategy for autistic people: achieve/overachieve until burning out and maybe the overachievement will result in enough social and economic capital to see you through the burnout." @theoriesofminds (Twitter)

This jumped out to me.

<comment><USER4> Heh, but isn't that almost everyone these days? And even normal people get a burnout when they have to run an internal virtual machine to conform to quickly changing society/rules they don't believe to maintain their status, and need a downtime to recover.

<comment><USER5> They called out this type of response in one of the articles linked from the main article... saying, "I also have that problem!" to someone trying to explain their autistic struggles is dismissing the extra difficulty they face. While it comes from a good place (trying to relate and show empathy), it actually can make them feel worse.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, I guess it's way more difficult for autistic persons :-( Aren't there any supplements that could "boost" the brain to at least decrease the burnout rate?

<comment><USER6> It may not be as simple as "supplements," but there are probably dietary and habitual augmentations to bolster these neuro-physiological resources. Sleep is crucial for replenishing neurotransmitters. Exercise is crucial for establishing biorhythms necessary to sleep. We're all fairly malnourished, given the modern western diet is biased towards cheap calories. Copper. Zinc. Iron. Deficiencies in all of these can cause mental health issues. Then there's the notorious (tenuous?) connection between suicidality and gluten.

Anyway, you can do your own research but as for supplements to facilitate extroversion... B vitamins?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > For seven months, I didn't leave the house. I had started ordering my > groceries online. I didn't have any reason to go anywhere. I wasn't > agoraphobic or afraid to leave my apartment. I just didn't feel like it.

This has been me for the last few months. I just can't bring myself to do things I hate lately. I hate breathing cold, dry winter air and feeling it on my face, I hate being accosted on the street for cash, I hate the loud construction noise, I hate navigating through crowds of people and cars, I hate the overwhelming smells from exhaust and food trucks. I was able to deal with it for a while because I knew the expectations that came with living in a city like Seattle. It's just that the downsides are so many, and the upsides are so few. I want to preserve the facilities I have for doing things that I like and that allow me to make a living.

I'm hoping an upcoming move I've got planned will make it more pleasurable to engage with other people more regularly, but protecting my well-being still has to come first. I'm so incredibly fortunate to have a career that allows me enough income to offload menial things like shopping for groceries. I feel terrible for those of us on the spectrum without that option, as if I couldn't live this way I would end up being entirely dependent on my spouse or family. I can imagine that burning out + feeling guilty about being a burden financially makes recovery from that state even more difficult.

<comment><USER8> Also from the Seattle area and this hits home as well, except I am a bit agoraphobic and need to build up courage to go out.

I used to push myself to go to dev meetups and such, even gave a few presentations, but eventually stopped. The emotional cost of going was high, and when I would get back home feeling wiped out and reflecting on it, I realized I actually gained very little from the experience. All the socializing was just hollow small talk and no lasting connections were ever formed. Interest-based meetups I've found to generally be transient, ephemeral, and unfulfilling for those who can't muster the enormous social buy-in to get any meaningful results. Volunteer work was more satisfying, but also fleeting and temporary.

On the plus side I did gain experience in public speaking and discovered it really doesn't bother me (although the mingling afterwards is social anxiety hell). Unfortunately that skill on its own isn't terribly useful.

> I feel terrible for those of us on the spectrum without that option, as if I > couldn't live this way I would end up being entirely dependent on my spouse > or family. I can imagine that burning out + feeling guilty about being a > burden financially makes recovery from that state even more difficult.

It is. I was swinging a remote-work career and doing the whole order- groceries-online shut-in routine as well. Eventually I succumbed to burnout for a host of reasons and the career crumbled to dust. Extended unemployment pulls you in like quicksand and I've been out of work for over a year now. I live in a converted tool shed in my parents back yard, and the guilt and shame is crushing. The erosion of self esteem saps your will to improve yourself, creating a vicious circle.

My last recourse at this point is to try to use this as an opportunity for learning and personal enrichment. While working I was myopically focused on programming and industry issues, and utterly ignored the wider world. I'm now trying to rectify that by reading more about philosophy, politics, history, etc.

There's so much more to the world than tech or vocation, and I regret ignoring that for so long. My advice to anyone in this situation is to, as much as your circumstances permit, expose yourself to a wider range of culture and find value and human dignity in ways other than your potential for capital generation. The value of a life is not measured in dollars, and don't let the world convince you that it is.

It feels like this is becoming a blog post or something, so I'll stop. Needless to say this topic hits home for me, as it seems to for many others here.

<comment><USER9> > All the socializing was just hollow small talk and no lasting connections > were ever formed.

You have to be the one who moves the conversation from chit-chat about the weather to interesting topics. Sure, it's fine to show up to a dev meeting and chat about your favorite APIs and all, but that won't help you make friends.

The vague process chart I personally use looks like this:

1\. Determine if you share common interests with the person (eg, small talk about things you do)

2\. Talk at a higher level about a single interest. A good trick is to treat the other person a bit like an expert about that interest - "Oh, what board game would you recommend for X?"

3\. Make an offer to hangout in the future. It should be in a situation with multiple people and a public place. You're not trying to invite them to a date, but instead communicate that you're already doing something and want them to join: "Hey, I hang out Tuesdays with some folks at the comicbook shop and play boardgames. You should come join us."

4\. If the person finds that agreeable or reciprocates, exchange contact info. I usually just hand them my phone with my contact info on the screen so they can choose their preferred method, but you can also give them a personal card.

Congrats, you've now made a new person you know. Hang out with them, invite them to things. Relationships are like gardens, they require regular tending and maintenance at first but as they get established, they only need occasional check-ins.

<comment><USER10> > You have to be the one that moves the conversation

Why is it always up to me? I feel the same as parent poster - I go to events or work functions or what-have-you and the onus is always on me - the one with stunted social skills - to advance things along.

Are there really no people that can at least bootstrap things for me? Or is it the case that those people with social competence already have a healthy social life and aren't actually interested in any deeper connection to begin with?

Herein is where my "you're a dummy" thought loops kick in on this. I can see it is a little spoiled to demand that a social life be handed to me with no work involved, but on the other hand, I see a bootstrapping problem here:

How am I supposed to invite new people to the comic book shop when I don't have the aforementioned "some folks" or the shop itself?

Gardens are great when you have good soil and plants already in place, but I feel like I am tearing up old blacktop and trying to build a garden on top of it.

<comment><USER9> Having a deeper connection requires having shared interests and enough in common to form that bond. There are plenty of people who may be perfectly social, but not share much of anything in common with you (which you can mitigate by expanding your interests).

> Are there really no people that can at least bootstrap things for me?

There are, it's whoever assembled your meetup/function/etc. Getting a bunch of people in a room together who share at least some kind of commonality is a borderline magic trick, and it's a ton of work.

Your job is to pair it down from there, because you don't have anyone who knows you well enough to do that last mile for you. You might get there - <USER2> you make good friends with organizers, you will be the person they introduce new folks to.

> How am I supposed to invite new people to the comic book shop..

There's two elements to this. One of which is just actually leaving your house to go to meetups or places on a regular basis - find your local board game shop (or other interest - hiking, old movies, food, etc) and go to that thing with some regularity.

The second element is to talk with folks. Maybe even folks with whom you don't have a connection yet, but enough to exchange your lists of interests and whatnot. If you struggle for things to talk about, use tools like FORD (Family, Occupation, Recreation, Dreams) or the interview strategy ("Oh, and what got you into hiking?").

You don't have to have a deep connection to have folks you enjoy spending time with, even if it's just playing Catan once a week - but that's at least your bootstrap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Wow.

> Ultimately, for me, passing as "normal" means that I am now a fake person, > never able to be myself without putting my ability to make a living in > jeopardy.

> An issue that was previously "fixed" can suddenly appear to be "broken" > again. In fact, nothing has been fixed or broken. We simply have very fluid > coping strategies that need to be continuously tweaked and balanced.

Bipolar I here. As an episodic disease, bipolar is extremely susceptible to this passing/masking phenomenon. I have been "stable" for so many years that even close co-workers can't detect anything, and I hardly even notice how much effort I put into "passing". But the effort does tax you and build up over time. This post really hits home for me, and I identify strongly with this kind of play-acting and exhaustion (without claiming to understand, or taking anything away from, the autism spectrum experience).

Moreover, I consistently underestimate the amount of detox and rest that I need to recover from this constant performing. To borrow a line from Rogers & Hammerstein, "whenever I fool the people I act neurotypical for, I fool myself as well". I forget I need to take care of myself.

Thank you Ryan for aggregating & posting!

<comment><USER12> me too on both the diagnosis and "I forget I need to take care of myself."

It's really a struggle to maintain normalcy in the professional world and take care of myself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This hits home for me and my experiences.

People often believe what they see and first impressions are strong. I seem like a perfectly functional hearing person 97% of the time, but the 3% of the time when I can't cover the gap, people tend to react with incredulity because they can't believe I have an actual disability. Some days I just don't want to deal with it because it's exhausting.

I've never really found a good solution to this that doesn't just require patience and persistence from the start. The best approach I've found is to be up-front from the start about my deafness and then to just "lie" about not being able to hear periodically to reinforce the "he's got a hearing problem" memory.

In the past, I used to try to be explicit and say things like "I'm sorry, but the air conditioning or something is droning and I can't hear you well," but that generally derails as people try to explain my own hearing to me with things like "that's so quiet, how it is louder than me" or "if you can hear THAT you should be able to hear me," etc.

<comment><USER14> I'm not even sure what I've got. I can hear very well. With enough focus I can follow people and animals around at pretty sizeable distances. I practice that. Or perhaps I should say I enjoy doing that, in the dark in the small pieces of forest that still remain where I live. I can easily follow a conversation from 30 meters distance, with sufficient focus.

But I cannot process, and sometimes not focus on multiple people talking, even when they're not talking through one another. I can tell you a lot generally about their speech, just not what it says. Where they're standing, tone of voice, are they moving, what their intentions are. But if there are 2 conversations in earshot of me I cannot tell you what anybody is saying even if they're shouting to me. If 3 people are standing around and talking I can only participate if I totally ignore one of them and just blindly shut them out, whatever they're saying. Sometimes it gets worse and even with little disturbance I just cannot tell anymore what people are saying to me.

People don't understand. In a 1:1 conversation I'm warm, open, attentive and so on. In a 3 way or more conversation, I'm cold, absent, distracted, annoying (because: very bored) ... Worse, often suddenly, from their perspective, I no longer understand them. I've learned to just hide this, and guess, and find some other excuse to turn the conversation back into a 1:1 conversation.

<comment><USER15> That sounds like auditory processing disorder.

<comment><USER14> Reading it, it seems not to fit very well. I can process speech just fine, I just don't seem to be able to switch from one person to another without a long time to make it happen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> We went through the ASD diagnostic process with our son, and it left us very sceptical about the whole thing. I was never convinced he had ASD (and I'm still not), but some psychologist talked us into it.

I really got the impression the psychologist was cherrypicking information (especially in the parent interview) just to check things off the diagnostic criteria. Everything he did that vaguely sounded like an ASD symptom was attributed to ASD, with no real thought as to whether it actually is or not. I compared her report to the DSM-5 criteria, I didn't get the impression she was actually applying the criteria properly, just doing her own thing and then invoking its name at the end as if it was some magic spell.

Her diagnostic report claimed our son (who was about to start school) needed all this special education help (timers in school, sensory diet, etc), and she really wanted us to give it to his school. The report sounded like a bad caricature of our son. We decided not to give it to the school and not tell them anything about it. And his teacher tells us he is going very well.

She also put him down in the report as being ASD Level 2, but she told us verbally she only thought he was Level 1, but she always puts people down as Level 2 or above because that's the cut-off for Australian government disability funding ("NDIS List A").

He's mostly normal kid, rather like myself at the same age. He's very intelligent, social stuff isn't his strong suit (but so what, it's never been mine either.) He's very shy, but my wife says she was even worse at his age. We did go through a period last year when his behaviour was becoming rather unmanageable (aggression, defiance, hyperactivity), but he's much much better now (so much so that we took him off his ADHD meds) and I think a lot of those behaviour problems were due to family stresses (new baby), parental mental illness (I have anxiety/depression, and I suspect my wife does too, although she resists diagnosis), sub-optimal parenting skills, rather than ASD and/or ADHD and/or whatever.

When people say that ASD is being overdiagnosed, and I look at what this psychologist did, I think it really is.

<comment><USER17> No, of course it's completely logical generalise the whole field of psychology and the diagnosis and treatment of complex mental disorders from the singular experience you had - especially when they've told you they're trying to get you the most help they can from various government bureaucracies. It's also perfectly logical to just take a face value your child's teacher's opinion that "they're fine" when they've got 20+ other children to worry about and monitor. Don't worry, you're the parent and you always know best - and you're sure to tell other people too. /s

I was diagnosed with ADHD _three times_ as a child, my parents never believed it and chose to never tell me or get me the help or medication or accommodation I needed because "I was fine". By god, I'm getting treated now and holy hell life would've been a billion times more enjoyable and productive if they'd just listened, or even told me later so that _I_ could decide. I know you're just trying to do the best you can, but jeez this is sad - if you doubt the diagnosis, fine - get a second opinion, and a third, but think that if they're all the same, you went there for a reason and they're probably right.

<comment><USER18> (same person, new throwaway, forgot password to the previous one)

> if you doubt the diagnosis, fine - get a second opinion

We actually tried to get a second opinion. We went to another psychologist for one, she booked us in, but then her superiors cancelled it. They said if a child has been diagnosed as having ASD Level 2, they didn't want to repeat the assessment since there was a risk they might get undiagnosed or only diagnosed as Level 1, which would remove his eligibility for government disability funding (NDIS). (Which we still haven't applied for, because we aren't convinced he needs it, and don't know what to spend it on anyway.) They wanted us to go to see some paediatrician they like, who is actually a colleague of our son's existing one.

Instead we took him back to his existing paediatrician. He said he too was a bit sceptical about the diagnosis, but that psychological diagnosis isn't an entirely objective process, and it doesn't really matter whether he has ASD or not, and it would be a waste of time to repeat the assessment, so we should just do nothing about it for 6-12 months, and see how he goes, and consider repeating the assessment in another 2-3 years.

<comment><USER19> The NDIS funding might be useful when your child is an adult, in the event that your child has difficulty finding and keeping a full-time job.

As an adult with Asperger's/Autism in a full-time job -- I agree that your child might not need the funding. But at this point, it is probably too early to tell.

I can also imagine a situation where a person with Autism was relying on, say, a bus funded by NDIS as part of their routine, was re-diagnosed as L1, had their routine disrupted, and came back to the psychiatrist and had a meltdown in the office. You'd only need one or two of these experiences to decide on a blanket policy to not rediagnose folks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> For the longest time my high functioning autism, formerly aspergers. Took a toll on me. I was second guessing every step at work.

Do I say hi, how do I make small talk. What's the appropriate distance for personal space. I wasn't afraid of people. I was afraid of acting outside of neurotically behavior, and causing an uncomfortable work place.

Now I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I take a very honey badger approach to work. Zero shits given at work. This has made it much easier. Not that I don't deliver work, or half ass it. I just put aside any personal attachment.

I did have the aspie burn out before getting into my own routine. Work as above, but social interaction stimuli. Self discovery is key for anyone on the spectrum. For me things like constantly having earbuds, textile I wear, maintaining light (via sunglasses), etc.

One of my biggest pet peeves is noted in the article. Constantly being told I'm not autistic. Just because I don't appear that way doesn't mean I'm not.

Right now my burnout is a sister symptom of the autism. In so much that it not directly caused. But a resulting effect. Where in I'm constantly moving or switching jobs. Because I don't feel stimulated at work, or challenged. The other big item is I don't do politics. Which can be very detrimental.

I still view being on the spectrum as more of a benefit. But it does require a fair amount of self awareness.

<comment><USER21> Not doing politics is not a mental disorder it's being noble.

<comment><USER22> I don't like politics, but I have to admit nearly every major human achievement is a political effort.

<comment><USER23> I think this referred to office politics.

<comment><USER22> Are you implying offices aren't involved in significant human achievement?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Idk if I'm autistic, but I do identify with this post to a surprising degree. My solution was quitting my job and working on projects hoping that one of them will take off. I've talked about it here on HN many times and a lot of people have reached out. I've convinced two of my friends to do the same and they've never been happier.

It's viable, you might need to scale down your life-style a bit but I've never been happier.

Programming on things you care about is a lot easier if you have a lot of time.

</comment><comment><USER25> I really appreciate (and relate to) this discussion, but I wanted to point out that some folks out there don't mind people who are a little on the spectrum. You don't _always_ have to pretend to be somebody else. Some people will like you the way you are, or, will tolerate and respect you even if they don't like you.

It seems like the authors never attempted an alternative: pushing back on people's assumptions and being themselves more often. People like and respect Spock and Sherlock Holmes. I get that those are extreme and fictional examples, but you don't have to be extroverted and "normal" to be liked. I'm not saying it'll be perfect, or always easy for you, but there are societal niches which don't mind that some people are weird. More importantly, they can tell that you're altruistic and well-intending, even if you you come off a little poorly socially.

<comment><USER26> I'm going to push back a bit on this. People like Spock and Sherlock only because they are incredibly capable. That is, it's entirely predicated on their instrumental value, not because of their personality. If they weren't as capable, people wouldn't hesitate to kick them to the curb and never interact with them.

<comment><USER27> Not to mention they never have to deal with the "step one" of giving them a chance. Even if they would find them indispensable if actually hired due to being a 10x performer getting in the door is a challenge when they would rather pay attention to irrelevancies of posture than actual qualifications.

That sort of talent filtering for stupid reasons is very not new - going back at the very least sexist exclusion from fields and Jewish university quota caps (as in maximum number of Jewish scholars) - let alone cases where people with massive potential never had the resources for education.

<comment><USER25> This got dark fast. I was just trying to say that autistic personalities weren't universally hated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Generally I am lucky enough to ride the burnout fine. But there are times when I'm in a meeting and all the sudden I just can't talk and start studdering or something. One time I said I had three points and could only remember two, literally seconds later. Wow!

Probably happens twice a year during stressful times...

On the upside - I get a lot done! :)

<comment><USER29> This happens to me as well. I sometimes avoid speaking in meetings because the act of drawing the attention of the whole room on me tends to compromise my ability to think and speak clearly. So I can start with a completely coherent set of points I want to make, but when I start actually talking I can no longer "remember" them, which in the worst case could make me seem incompetent. I use quotes because I don't believe it's a legitimate lapse of memory so much as it is a sort of social overload that shuts part of me down.

This doesn't always happen and I've found the exact conditions that trigger it to be complex. A huge factor is definitely whether I know everyone in the meeting in advance and feel comfortable with them. This is partly why I choose to stay at a job for years instead of job hopping — once I feel comfortable and stable with coworkers, suddenly I'm not only able to speak coherently in meetings but in fact I can even enjoy running large meetings with no issues.

<comment><USER30> I have a similar experience -- I was going to say that my intelligence seems to vary inversely with my level of social anxiety, but I don't think it's quite that consistent. Sometimes my intellect really seems to shut down for no particularly good reason. If I may lapse into bullshit evo-psych for a moment: I guess my brain sometimes decides that I'm in a social emergency (perhaps if I say one more embarrassing thing I'll be ostracised from the tribe and left for dead!) and it needs to devote 90% of its cognitive resources to that problem.

<comment><USER31> I have similar experience? Am I autistic?

<comment><USER30> > Am I autistic?

I wouldn't assume so, unless you have other reasons to think so. I'm not diagnosed autistic, and I wouldn't self-diagnose either, though I do think I'm on the autistic side of 'normal' for some traits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Hmm... so I have Asperger's Syndrome, and my thoughts on the article are a bit varied.

Honestly I don't think I've experienced burnout from trying to normalize. There are probably a lot of reasons for that... I have a pretty good support system, I enjoy understanding other people, and perhaps I just don't always take it fully seriously.

I have had burnout related to other things. I personally think all people get burnt out if they are stressed out for a long period of time or deal with too many changes at once. That's not something super tied to Autism in my experience. Just tied to being human

I do relate to taking normalization a bit less seriously as I've gotten older. Partly because sometimes the normal thing to do isn't the best option. So perhaps I risk looking a bit weird at the cost of doing what I think is better. Going on my mission helped with that quite a bit I think.

So yeah, kinda mixed feelings. I'm sure some have felt what's described, I personally have not though.

</comment><comment><USER33> Interesting, definitely had the experience of thinking "Am I becoming more autistic?" but just put it down to caring less about what other people think about it. Now I wonder if this is closer to the truth.

I'm not sure but I'm pretty confident I've experienced a degradation of memory. I combat it with copious note taking and judicious use of a calendar but it does feel unpleasant. I do wonder if it's simply because I do more activities within a single day than I used to in my previous routine of development on a single application one task at a time + social. Now I can have to deal with many tasks for many customers all vying for my attention in parallel.

EDIT: Found great improvement from wearing headphones and sunglasses outdoors though. Helps me avoid too much new information in the morning when my brain is best suited for taking on new information and I have the minimal number of draws on my attention.

</comment><comment><USER34> Latest discovery on my part, after the burnout, a heavy magnesium supplement helps a lot. Especially with the foggy brain, and the physical contact with others.

</comment><comment><USER35> I definitely commonly fall into a cyclic productivity setup, though I am not sure if I would call it 'burnout'. I think that burnout is coupled with disgust for the primary activity, while my lows are characterized by low executive function, not quite at odds with disgust but personally I love my work, and I am just not thinking right when I am at my lows.

There doesn't seem to be intrinsically grinding pain to neurotypical behaviors. I say this because for the past couple months I have fixed the productivity highs and lows into a nice marathon pace. I will see how long this pans out of course.

</comment><comment><USER36> As someone with ADHD and bi-polar like cycles, I can fully relate to this. I'm burnt out right now - exactly as he describes. Problem is, the rollacoaster doesnt let you get off.

</comment><comment><USER37> man I've been needing this for a while. this is basically what happens to me any time I take a job in the corporate sector and have to heavily constrain myself. it usually ends with me spiraling down into addiction self medicating with whatever helps me manage to function even just 1% better (subjectively speaking of course, i probably just get worse!)

nowadays im trying to just stick to cannabis and nootropics (namely memantine as nmda antagonism also tends to help me function and maintain the neurotypical façadre) though as they tend to get the job done without putting my body and mind in danger. I have a job interview with wpengine coming up so im hoping that maybe this time I can do it right because I don't really have any other options. im essentially going to lose my place to live at the end of the year so I really need to make sure I figure out a healthy way to maintain if I get the job.

im open to advice if anyone has any suggestions, as ive tried to do this alone my entire adult life, and i just can't seem to figure it out. you give me a formal discipline, something I can quantify and study every aspect of and ill have no problems figuring it out, but when it comes to figuring out how to irl properly i am but an inchoate

<comment><USER38> "im essentially going to lose my place to live at the end of the year so I really need to make sure I figure out a healthy way to maintain if I get the job"

Start with finding a healthy way to maintain _even if you don 't get the job_. That will put you in a place where you'll be able to find and retain one.

<comment><USER37> you know, i think that's what I meant to type because that makes a lot more sense to me now that i think about it. evidently sitting in a hot bath makes me lazier about my typing. who would have guessed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> see [https://www.amazon.com/Masks-Mirrors-Generation-Chameleon- Pe...](https://www.amazon.com/Masks-Mirrors-Generation-Chameleon- Personality/dp/0275973255/)

</comment><comment><USER40> I'm confused, what makes 'autistic burnout' any different than regular 'burnout'? The stories linked in the post seem to be just describing burnout, though I've not clicked into the linked pages. What am I missing that makes autistic burnout different?

<comment><USER41> Autistic burnout is partially a result of pretending to be "normal" around other people (those who don't understand and judge autistic behaviour like stimming). "Normal" people can also experience this burnout if they're also pretending to be someone they are not (day in, day out).

Part of the problem is that people don't realize that everyone is on the spectrum, autism isn't a binary "property". The other, bigger, part of the problem is that there seems to be a negative stereotypical view of people with mental illnesses or just people who aren't "normal". Unfortunately autistic people fall towards that category in the current social context.

<comment><USER40> > Autistic burnout is partially a result of pretending to be "normal" around > other people (those who don't understand and judge autistic behaviour like > stimming). "Normal" people can also experience this burnout if they're also > pretending to be someone they are not (day in, day out).

Wait, so autistic burnout is just regular burnout, but from general social interactions? I get that we're all on this autistic spectrum[0], but I think we all just get burnt out from time to time when dealing with jerks and other people in general. Is it just that autistic people get more tired from the standard social guessing game? If this is a spectrum, then where is the cut- off? Is it all self-diagnosis then?

Also, what is stimming?

Sorry for all the questions. Feel free to answer any/none of them. Thanks for the answers thus far!

[0] Also, how is the spectrum any different than just the normal range of being a human? It sounds like we've just got a new word for another normally distributed human thing, like height or hearing ranges.

<comment><USER41> > It sounds like we've just got a new word for another normally distributed > human thing

I was trying to find some stats on the distribution myself, but couldn't find anything. All the data that's easily searchable is about people who have ASD :/

> Is it just that autistic people get more tired from the standard social > guessing game? If this is a spectrum, then where is the cut-off? Is it all > self-diagnosis then?

I guess so, I'm no expert on this myself, just know that I'm relatively high on the spectrum, but below this "magical" threshold you mention. From personal experience most social interactions for me are very tiring, especially around non close friends/family. However I can't comment on whether this is normal for most people since I've always been this way. I self-diagnosed myself through literature and a few online tests, but it's obviously not as accurate as a real diagnosis done by a professional. You _can_ try to self-diagnose, but you obviously have to take the results with a bucket of salt.

>Also, what is stimming?

Short for stimulating. Basically engaging your senses to make yourself feel calmer/more comfortable. This explains it in more detail: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimming)

<comment><USER40> > Self-stimulatory behavior, also known as stimming[1] and self- > stimulation,[2] is the repetition of physical movements, sounds, or words, > or the repetitive movement of objects common in individuals with > developmental disabilities and most prevalent in people on the autism > spectrum.

... Holy Shit ... I do this all the time ... I'm autistic?

Where does one do more tests?

<comment><USER41> hahaha maybe a little, but that language is also pretty general.

This is the one I took: [https://psychology-tools.com/test/autism-spectrum- quotient](https://psychology-tools.com/test/autism-spectrum-quotient)

And then "verified" with other random ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Who else thinks that this autism was caused by this school and the fact that this guy believed, for some reason, that he deserved such treatment ?

</comment><comment><USER42> Honestly I know this probably sounds insensitive which isn't my intent but I feel like a substantial amount of noise around these mental condition labels are people using them to subconsciously raise the victim flag instead of dealing with shit, either personally or by proxy (parents claiming kids are abnormal, when really they are just bad or absentee parents). There must be a technical term for this perspective in the science, could anyone with a psych background fill us in?

<comment><USER43> I'm reminded of how some people complain that there are a lot more queer people around and claim that they are somehow "fake" or "going through a phase", when all that's happened is that visible signs are no longer quite so violently suppressed. Or dead of AIDS.

<comment><USER44> well, rebelling against parents nowadays in a unique fashion, is hard to do, our parents have already rebelled using so many facets available to them, listened to punk music, drugs/mdma/acid, fashion etc... one of the areas to rebel with , left untouched by previous generations, is gender.

<comment><USER43> > left untouched by previous generations, is gender

Stonewall was 1969; gender-fluidity, androgyny, "glam" etc were a big part of 70s and early 80s pop. I do agree that there's a big fight between second-wave feminists and trans people going on at the moment.

<comment><USER27> Not to mention before that with women wearing pants as the rebellion, suffragists and others - that was a rebellion against gender. You might say those were different as "not really a part of gender" but the past would vehemently disagree with you.

Look at photographs of secretly female soldiers - to the modern eye it is obvious enough to serve as documentation but then her comrades didn't know until after injury or death because they expected women in skirts and dresses not uniforms.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google Photos corrupts your photos that you paid for - <AUTHOR> https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!category-topic/photos/3DoSk-5H-GI <comment><USER2> I feel sorry for the person, but if the photos are truly important and irreplaceable they should have been following the 3-2-1 rule.

At least three copies, in at least two physical locations, at least one of which is offline.

If you are storing any digital data in one single place, no matter how trustworthy and reliable that single place may seem to be, you're at risk of losing it. Most people learn this lesson the hard way, unfortunately.

</comment><comment><USER3> Gotta love the useless "Clear caches and cookies and reinstall..." responses.

<comment><USER4> distibuted testing systems or whatever they call it are often based on a hidden setting in your cookies/cache, and may have undesired effects. Clearing them gives you another value for the setting, which means you will not be using the breaking behaviour of the previous trial. Its an easy way to keep the fact that you're in a possibly unstable environment away from the user.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> So, the cause of the corrupted photos still is undiscovered?

<comment><USER6> Just a wild guess but perhaps there were errors in the upload/backup process that went unnoticed. Then when the originals were deleted to save space, the user lost them.

Again, just speculation based on nothing at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Something related happened to me. Some of the photos on my google photos are just completely black. It's not exactly the same because this guy's photos are "corrupted". Mine are just literally black. Not all of them, just around 20, all in the same day, all in sequence.</comment>


Show HN: How I Hacked.info – Open source database of hacking stories - <AUTHOR> http://howihacked.info/?hn <comment><USER2> Re-reading one of these[0] and seeing,

> The unpleasant part is a guy from Starbucks calling me with nothing like > "thanks" but mentioning "fraud" and "malicious actions" instead. Sweet!

This is all too common these days. Remember when reporting a vulnerability was a great way to get a job? Yeah, those are so 2000s. Maybe there needs to be a campaign about responsible disclosures to encourage businesses to be accepting, not rejecting of these things.

[0] [http://sakurity.com/blog/2015/05/21/starbucks.html](http://sakurity.com/blog/2015/05/21/starbucks.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> Despite not understanding some 90% of the technical language these were all still great reads!</comment>


My App Is Dead in the Water - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@mds6058/my-app-is-dead-in-the-water-93a97a137eff <comment><USER2> I've checked couple of popular apps on the App Store and here are my findings:

\- Twitter: uses SFSafariViewController

\- Reddit: uses custom in-app web view, shows page title and url on top, provides "open in Safari" option through share button

\- Instagram: uses custom in-app web view, shows page title and url on top, provides the built in share-sheet, interestingly disabling open in Safari, but enabling "Add to Reading list"

Your current app on the App Store embeds third party content in an in-app web view, without showing the title or original URL on top and without being able to open the link in Safari.

I suggest you to either use SFSafariViewController for the third party content or mimic something similar with a proper title bar and and share button with Open in Safari option.

<comment><USER3> One key difference (from a legal perspective, rather than a developer perspective) is that all of the above apps _first_ display user commentary and the user is then given the option to open the link to read the entire article. This is an important distinction under the fair use doctrine: [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-the-four- fa...](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-the-four-factors.html)

<comment><USER4> How does it make a difference from a legal perspective? I am a former lawyer and can't see how any of this matters. I have thought about this deeply in the past (dealing with the same issue for another app), and talked with IP lawyer friends, and we cannot determine what basis Apple has for singling out apps that are essentially specialized web browsers.

I'm happy to be enlightened on why this practice makes sense, but so far I've come up with nothing.

<comment><USER3> The Fair Use Doctrine allows someone to share copyrighted material for a limited and "transformative" purpose. Typically "transformative" falls into one of two buckets: parody or commentary/criticism. Reddit, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram all display the entire news article within their app _only after_ it has been presented alongside the poster's commentary. OP's Hacker News Zero app does it the other way around. Click on the link and you're taken directly to the news article and, if you then choose, you can select the "comments" to view commentary/criticism. The initial viewing of the article doesn't fall within Fair Use because it's not transformative in any way.

I suspect if the app is changed to operate more like Reddit (view the article title/source and view comments, if any, prior to opening the article) it would be approved by Apple. Alternatively, as suggested by Apple, the app could initially present only an excerpt of the article and fall within the exception but, as pointed out in the medium post, that probably isn't particularly valuable to HN users.

You also could have tried reading the link I included with my original comment.

<comment><USER4> This begs the question of why the fair use doctrine is required at all. It isn't needed for a web browser; why would it be needed for a pared-down web browser? Is it needed for a text-only web browser?

None of these is addressed by your original comment or the link, which all presuppose that the fair use doctrine is the only way to escape copyright problems associated with loading a webview with someone else's content.

<comment><USER3> Web browsers have an "implied license": [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Field_v._Google,_Inc](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Field_v._Google,_Inc). and (I believe, but don't quote me on this) the law was amended shortly after this case to clarify the permissions/limit liability of web browsers & ISPs.

A third-party application doesn't have the same permissions/protections. Copyright law doesn't always require the author's permission though. If you don't have permission you can still display the content if you have a legal justification. The Fair Use Doctrine is the set of factors to determine whether or not publication without permission is justified.

The transformative nature of the publication is only one factor, although it's the most important. Another factor working in OP's favor is that the use is non-commercial. He says in his blog post that he maintains the site on his own in his spare time, doesn't charge users to download the app, and from what I can tell, doesn't have any ads.

I really think OP could make some small changes and get it approved by the app store.

<comment><USER5> Really unclear to me what you man by "third-party application" here. How is Google Chrome not third party, but this app is?

Typically in this nomenclature the first and second parties are the user and OS (or computer) vendor. The third party is an application developer. So typically Google and Mozilla would be third parties the same as maker of the HN browser.

Aside from that, I see no real distinction here. When I launch Firefox, it shows me on my "blank" home page (provided by the browser, not a web page) a list of popular articles curated by its Pocket division. This is essentially identical to what OP's app does. One is a browser that proffers links, the other is a browser that proffers links.

<comment><USER6> In Google Chrome, you have to type in the address of website you are visiting. It is a lot of different if Chrome showed content from other sites without you specifically requesting it and without showing URL of those articles.

I have seen of lot of funny or meme apps which rip content off same popular websites. I think it unfair to operator of such sites. A lot of these app will show their ads, but won't pull in ads of publisher.

<comment><USER7> But they are specifically requesting it.

I think this is a bad argument. Showing web content is how the web works.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think it's important to look at the broader issue: "App stores" are walled gardens, policed by corporations and are the opposite of freedom. The web is open and free. We made a deal with the devil when we collectively decided to write and use apps and not the web. This is just one symptom.

<comment><USER9> Alas, a walled garden is not the opposite of freedom. Indeed, in many places, living in a walled garden will make you factually freeer than your fellows outside.

<comment><USER10> Your argument misrepresents the metaphor. It's the wall that's the barrier to freedom, not what goes on within.

<comment><USER11> Freedom without boundaries and trust isn't freedom but anarchy.

A game is only a game if all the players have a shared set of rules and can trust each other to stay within them. As soon as someone breaks the rules the game is over, and the freedom provided is lost.

<comment><USER12> Both of these points are wrong.

<comment><USER11> Thanks for the constructive criticism.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I had a very similar problem with an iOS app [1] I published which aggregated 3rd-party news content via RSS.

It took 3 months of back-and-forth with Apple Review to bypass those legality and content clauses in addition to a "limited functionality" clause. The key features introduced that finally put me past the review board were:

* Embedding a link to Safari on each news article cell

* Only allow content to display in SFSafariViewController (this was desired anyways)

* Allowing user to pick and choose categories of news to be shown

* A progress tracking feature which very simply measures and displays users' time spent reading

The former two got me past the clauses identified in this article, re: 3rd party content. The latter two helped me to prove my app did something other than display 3rd party content (the limited functionality clause).

Was frustrating to find these workarounds, especially when the App Review board is not very responsive. Thankfully, some kind soul at Apple called me and helped me resolve everything within a day after my 5th consecutive reject.

[1] [http://appstore.com/dossierallyouneedtoknow](http://appstore.com/dossierallyouneedtoknow)

</comment><comment><USER14> This is a shame, I'm sorry to hear.

I loved this app for a long time because it was the only one (that I found) that would cache comment threads on the device - this meant I could read comments on the subway and/or without access to the internet.

A few months ago the app was rewritten in Swift and lost my most treasured feature, not that it matters anymore.

Thanks for the years of connectivity-anxiety free comment reading!

Edit: If you do get passed this (I really hope you do) please consider adding an option that would fetch and save comments on the device. I'll pay for it.

<comment><USER15> I think Materialistic (a popular HN app for Android) does this. I can't remember getting "you need to be online" error ever, it just uses whatever comments cached last time I updated. I don't know if it has an iOS version.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I see the comments are already filling up with the usual cries of how this is what you get when you play in a curated market, but something about this doesn't make sense.

Apple provides several views specifically designed to show web content: UIWebView, WKWebView, and SFSafariViewController. This ruling of theirs would apply to all uses of these views that aren't for specific domains and URLs known in advance, which makes no sense.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of apps across all kinds of categories that display websites within the app. I've personally launched dozens of apps that have this functionality and never received a rejection for it, or heard of anyone who has.

Moreover, there are no mechanisms that I'm even aware of to provide Apple with proof of "permission" to display a URL. So the path you're supposed to take is to wait for a rejection and then submit that proof to the reviewer in your resubmission? Or is this supposed to go in the review notes? Presumably you saying you have permission isn't enough, so what do they want, a link to a PDF of a signed contract that their legal team can review? Really doubt it.

None of this is meant to be defensive of Apple or an attack on the author of this article. It just sounds like there was a mistake or error in communication somewhere. I don't think Apple's intent here is to disallow any app that opens a URL, but I guess we'll see.

<comment><USER17> Thank you, this is the best comment so far.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Why not launch Safari when the user clicks on an article? And make it clear that you have permission from HN to use their API?

Having used your app for exactly one minute, that seems like it would address their concerns and preserve usability.

<comment><USER19> Yes, I don't know about others but I actually prefer this, I would see it as an improvement, URLs should be opened in a browser not the app, that way you have the full functionality enabled, but then again that's just my personal taste.

<comment><USER20> On iOS, SFSafariViewController gets you the best of both worlds. The browser is in-app, but you essentially get a full Safari experience.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It seems to me by saying "Attach documentary evidence in the App Review Information section in App Store Connect granting you permission to use these sources" they are just asking for a paper trail of your rights to use that information.

Why can't you include the agreement for the API as documentation of this? Seems really straight forward. They are trying to protect themselves, not get into a philosophical battle over software and media copyrights.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have pointed them to the API documentation that I use, however they were uninterested in that. I also tried contacting the maintainers of the API, they didn't have anything for me.

<comment><USER22> I would obtain a full copy of the copyright laws, ask your lawyer to put them on legal paperhead in a PDF, then attach them in full to your email.

<comment><USER23> I'd be interested to know if a "full copy of the copyright laws" would fit in a standard email payload

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This seems weird enough to be an error of some kind. Not that Apple is likely to fix it, but enforcing this rule would exclude:

\- All Reddit apps

\- All HN apps

\- Twitter

\- Facebook

\- Google News

\- Any link or news aggregator

I guess even a browser wouldn't fly, since it "displays full articles from multiple news sources."

<comment><USER25> Unless they are cracking down on apps that do _nothing_ but republish links and feeds. Most Reddit apps will let you post and engage; some HN apps will do that too (shout out to my beloved Minihack). This particular app didn't, so it's difficult to argue that it provided anything more than republishing links... something that _surely_ should be done only by their News app now /s

<comment><USER24> I guess... but that still leaves pretty much all news aggregators. Google News doesn't let you do much other than read news from all over the internet. It's functionally exactly the same, only with a different aggregating algorithm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I think what bugs me most about app review is that these things _never_ come up for 1.0 or even 1.15. It's some minor update where _THEN_ Apple complains about minutiae that have existed since 1.0. Heck, they once complained about not having a Minimize button in a window (literally all previous versions lacked it).

</comment><comment><USER27> It's sad that most of the comments seem to suggest that while it is not ideal, this is indeed the rule and either the links should be opened in safari or this is nothing new. That such a common functionality isn't allowed on ios while showing arbitrary enforcement is a real travesty. I'm surprised how tepid most of the comments are.

</comment><comment><USER28> Looks like Apple has a history of removing third party reader apps. See a discussion from a couple years ago on Reddit apps getting nuked: [https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/4edaee/looks_like_t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/4edaee/looks_like_the_app_store_is_pulling_all_third/)

edit: looks like that time it was for NSFW content....

<comment><USER29> It should be well known by now that Apple developers serve at the pleasure of the king ([https://blog.codinghorror.com/serving-at-the-pleasure-of- the...](https://blog.codinghorror.com/serving-at-the-pleasure-of-the-king/)).

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Apple told you what to do:

> Require users to customize their news sources upon launching your app

Make it a setting. Anyone who is going to use your app is qualified to paste a URL into a text field (or click a radio button indicating they want to use news.yc vs old.xy)

<comment><USER31> News Sources:

Hacker News (On/Off)

Imagine they accept it like that haha

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> There must be thousands and thousands of apps that function similar to HN clients. Providing a wrapper of an existing site and some additionally functionality seems pretty standard.

This is another sad example of the power the internet giants have over developers when we're forced to build for their platforms in order to get users.

<comment> kara-1234 Completely agreed here, we gave these companies all the power to keep us safe, integrate into our lives, and at the drop of a hat now they can take it away from you with no real way to fight back.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> What nonsense. The links that HN has are all to publicly available websites, isn't the whole reason for their existence to be visited? How is this different from a web browser?

<comment><USER34> > How is this different from a web browser?

or a search engine

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> > \- Only show a portion of the article within your app and link out to Safari > for the rest

Reading between the lines here, is the problem that ad tracking works less in these apps due to having separate cookies, so publishers are pressuring Apple to remove these apps?

<comment><USER25> More likely that is about Apple pushing its News app.

<comment><USER36> Aside: Is there a reasonable way to get any non-American/non-English news in the news app?

I find it a bit mindblowing that "Discover Channels" and the topics list are all in English and for a country I don't live in. For example, there's an option to add every BBC subcategory except BBC Mundo (i.e. Latin America).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> The hardships of developing for closed platforms. At least your livelihood didn't depend on that App.

</comment><comment><USER38> Painful, but I guess it's up to the individual AppStore reviewer to figure out what is ok or not. I actually created a few years ago a HackerNews client as well for iOS, but it never got through the review process, not even version 1.0. I was surprised, since many other HackerNews apps with similar features were allowed. At that point I just gave up and put the source code on Github, for whole the world to see.

I believe this way it might still have helped me find new job opportunities, since companies could see a bit of my coding style. So I believe in the end not all work was for nothing.

<comment> gurpreet- Yes, it would help to know why that condition is there in the first place and also why Apple exercise it for some apps and not others.

There's little app developers can do about it for iOS. On Android you can install new app stores, but with Apple you're forced to use theirs. This can be both a blessing and a curse.

In this case, it's just unfortunate luck.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I'm confused. What's the violation here? Apps are supposed to open links in Safari "outside of the app" unless they have permission?

What about in-app browsers???? Twitter, Facebook, Instagram... they all open links inside their app, in an in-app browser.

Can somebody please clarify Apple's rules here? (No snark please.)

</comment><comment><USER40> This might be a good time to reconsider what made iOS the best platform for this application in the first place.

For example, can the app be re-packaged as an HTML5 app instead? What's the compelling advantage for building on iOS for this application?

<comment><USER41> I'd imagine the compelling advantage is being a native iOS application: "I wasn't satisfied with the features of the Hacker News clients I had downloaded from the app store".

<comment><USER40> It looks like I wasn't clear - I'm suggesting an in-browser app independent of iOS and the app store.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Can't wait for PWAs to truly take off, so we can all build for an open platform again, without having to deal withh this nonsense.

<comment><USER34> Isn't Apple the main holdup for this though? They only recently allowed _some_ things, but look at the list of things you can do on android vs ios when it comes to PWA's [1]. Things like not even notifying the user that they can install it as a PWA, and no push notification functionality are 2 pretty big barriers to having it actually work well. From what I've read, v12 didn't add any new capabilities over 11.3, which only fairly recently introduced very limited PWA functionality.

I don't really see Apple doing much more on this front than they have. It makes no financial sense for them as _some_ smallish percentage of appstore apps _could_ be replaced with PWA's. What's their incentive? They will lose some revenue.

[1] [https://medium.com/@firt/progressive-web-apps-on-ios-are- her...](https://medium.com/@firt/progressive-web-apps-on-ios-are- here-d00430dee3a7)

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> > Questions like, "How is my app different than all the other Hacker News apps > out there?" were ignored.

I understand the frustration that leads to this question, but it is wholly irrelevant and only loses you a bit of the reviewer's attention span.

<comment><USER44> "it is wholly irrelevant"

Nonsense. It seems like the developer was willing to make any changes Apple wished in order to conform to their policies. His impediment was that _he could not figure out what those changes were_.

If very similar app X is ok, and my app is not, then asking what the crucial difference is, is a very apt question which may lead directly to the specific issue.

If we cant be sensible, ask sensible questions and have a sensible conversation about an issue with another human, in order to try and resolve a problem in good faith, then I guess we should all just go stick our heads in buckets of water.

<comment><USER43> They told him whoch changes they want him to make. He dances around it a lot with "surely I can't get consent from the whole Internet", but he did understand that they want him to use Safari.

I don't agree with Apple here, I think his app should be fine.

But that's what they said, and just because they did not pull the other apps _yet_ (for all we know), doesn't mean he has a point asking about those.

<comment><USER27> And why not ? How else will we question arbitrary enforcement without pointing out to the instances of arbitrary enforcement ? Surely, he is not asking that they take down those other apps. He just wants to be in the same bucket as the others.

<comment><USER43> You don't discuss arbitrary enforcement with Apple's reviewer.

Either they enforce arbitrarily, or they don't. In neither case do they care about your opinion on it.

If you want to have that discussion, have it. On your blog. On Hacker News. On Medium. But not in the "please reinstate my app" conversation with Apple.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Are you displaying the articles in a standard Safari view like Tweetbot & co? And are you sure the problem isn't triggered by the favicons (aka copyrighted logos) on the main list?

</comment><comment><USER46> Let me fix this for you: Don't invest any resources into developing for an Apple platform. They will fuck you over whenever they feel like it.

</comment><comment><USER47> "It felt like I was arguing with a robot."

How much of the App Store review process is automated these days, anyways?

One of my largest laments for the last 8 years or so with the App Store is the lack of a phone number in the appeals process for applications. I feel speaking out loud with a real person would force answers to a lot of these questions, especially 'why does 'x' get away with this and I can't?'

<comment><USER48> > I feel speaking out loud with a real person would force answers to a lot of > these questions

Oh, hey, we've arrived at the reason that phone number doesn't exist. The ambiguity gives Apple flexibility, and I doubt they have any plans to remove it in the near future (How I'd love to be wrong!)

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> I guess your app is basically a browser. And so, you are competing with their own browser.

What else can you expect from a walled garden?

</comment><comment><USER50> Is the app actually parsing the articles and displaying them the app or just like other HN clients that just have links and you open them in Safari? If it's the first then I guess the complaint makes sense if you are implementing some kind of "Reader" mode in the app itself by scraping the content.

<comment><USER51> I am currently using an HN client on iOS which parses the article links for you and renders them into a "reader" mode without leaving the app, you can also open the link via Safari or save it to pocket.

This is exactly what his app is doing, I fail to see what are the differences between the two?

<comment><USER52> The app you're using:

\- is older and predates this particular restriction

\- OR the reviewers overlooked it

App Store reviews are really a gamble when you start linking to websites in your app. It's just a shitty experience for the developer in general.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> I'm sure this is an error, and a moronic one at that. Otherwise even safari infringes on Apple's rules.

The real maddening thing is that there is no appeal process and no (mainstream) way to distribute your app if Apple has a vague problem with it.

I hope for a day we will have mobile devices that are free and usable.

<comment><USER54> No, Safari doesn't have this problem. One remedy the OP was offered was to require the _user_ to choose the third-party content to display. That's just what Safari does.

(BTW, I don't think it's an appropriate remedy in this situation. I'm just saying this isn't inconsistent with Safari.)

<comment><USER53> It's not so simple. When you load HN on safari, it doesn't prompt you which links on HN you'd like to allow visits to. A tap on the link is what signals your intent. I fail to see how downloading an HN app is any different from visiting HN in safari.

There are probably links to websites that link to the wider Web too on the safari new tab page (though I haven't used a fresh safari in some time so I might be mistaken).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> One has to wonder if what Apple actually objects to is the display of logos (from the favicons) in the list of links. They're an incredibly brand conscious company and almost certain have people scouting for things that could get them sued by the owners of other brands.

<comment><USER30> It would seem to be odd for a mark owner to sue after specifically putting out a favicon, which is intended to be used to visually ID that site in a sea of tabs/links.

<comment><USER55> While I wholeheartedly agree I mean to focus on the perception of a problem and not the presence of any actual problem.

Regardless of where the logo is acquired from what is more important is _where it is shown_ and _what it is shown next to_. This is what I mean by brand sensitivity. The article makes it seem (to me) like the reviewer has a problem with a specific aspect of the app but is using a somewhat broadly interpretable part of the guidelines as the reason for rejection. This is why I suspect that a visual change regarding the logos might help the app pass review.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Seems like a lot of these issues could be resolved with better communication, such as a call with a real person. The author mentions "It felt like I was arguing with a robot." Too many of these large companies (Google, Facebook, Apple) have become faceless.

</comment><comment><USER57> One option is to submit the app under a new dev account with a few tweaked variables ( name, colors, screenshots ) I feel like some of these rejections depend on the reviewer you get that day; and once an app is flagged, it's hard to recover.

<comment><USER58> This is a really bad idea. These platforms like Apple and Google control large online ecosystems, and they're known to permaban people across the board when they step out of line. There are dozens of stories about Google basically terminating all relationships with someone (including their Gmail, Drive content, etc.) over Play Store dev account hijinks.

I presume the author of the article has an iPhone. If he intends to be able to use an iPhone, screwing around with making Apple accounts that pretend to be different people to sneak an app past the reviews is not a good decision. The developer could find themselves unable to use any Apple account or service.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> > 5.2.2 Third Party Sites/Services: If your app uses, accesses, monetizes > access to, or displays content from a third party service, ensure that you > are specifically permitted to do so under the service's terms of use.

Interesting.. I had an app in the Apple App Store for some time that essentially scraped a service provider's web site, allowing the user to invoke features of that site. Essentially wrapping an ugly web site in a pretty iOS interface. Never even considered "getting authorization" from them. It survived in the iOS App Store for a few years until I took it down for other reasons. Wonder how new this rule is or how evenly it's enforced.

</comment><comment><USER60> > _Showing articles from random third party sources is pretty much THE feature > of a Hacker News client app._

No, that should be showing the HN discussion.

For the articles itself, you could always forward an open the original page in an embedded webkit view.

</comment><comment><USER61> A lesson learned by a lot of iOS devs. If you want to play in their game, you have to play by their rules, even if they don't apply those rules to everyone else.

</comment><comment><USER60> >* Questions like, "How is my app different than all the other Hacker News apps out there?" were ignored. (...) It makes you wonder: if this rule is supposed to be enforced by app review, how does ANY Hacker News client make it through app review?*

That's not a very good question to argue with Apple about. It's like saying the traffic cop "but there are all those other cares going beyond 70 mph, why stop me?".

<comment><USER47> Except speeding as a law makes a lot more sense, and, in the case of the cop, you're actually able to appeal to a real person.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Surely its enough to get a Hacker News person to give you a claim waiver or something? I mean, did you try contacting the HN folks?

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually I did ask them, they (unsurprisingly) didn't have anything like that.

<comment><USER63> Given the huge volume of crappy apps in the store, I think the general public is well served by this policy even if it does suck for well intentioned developers like yourself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Apple is a monopoly in the apps market, controlling 66% [1] of the $70B annually. It's practices are now going to be litigated at the supreme court level [2]

Apple's only defense, that it isn't a majority of the unit sales in Mobile phones, is a convenient strawman distracting from the fact that they ARE a majority in the app store market. Increasingly, people are finding such excuses misleading and outdated [3]

I hope Apple losses in the supreme court, as their app store process makes a mockery of an individual's ownership of the iPhone they paid for. Imagine if you bought a house, and the builder got to decide what furniture could and couldn't be put in it.

Additionally, it's time for the EU and FTC to regulate Apple and the like, on realistic definitions of monopoly and antitrust

[1]: [https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/16/apples-app-store- revenue-n...](https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/16/apples-app-store-revenue- nearly-double-that-of-google-play-in-first-half-of-2018/)

[2]: [https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/20/17479480/supreme-court- ap...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/20/17479480/supreme-court-apple-vs- pepper-antitrust-lawsuit-standing-explainer)

[3]: [https://qz.com/work/1460402/google-facebook-and-amazon- benef...](https://qz.com/work/1460402/google-facebook-and-amazon-benefit-from- an-outdated-definition-of-monopoly/)

</comment><comment><USER65> There are a lot of complaints about "X app does this, why can't mine." The app store isn't a democracy, they can and do make up their own rules and they can apply them how they want.

Think of the Simpsons episode and the "No Homer's Club". They can allow one Homer, and reject all other Homers if they want.

</comment><comment><USER66> Very rich of Apple to reject this app when Apple News aggregates news, doesn't display original URLs, etc.

<comment><USER3> Apple News has a license to distribute that content from the content creators. OP doesn't.

Edit: To say I don't agree with the way the law shakes out with respect to copyright enforcement on the internet but that's the way it works right now. I would even suggest that recent legislation in Europe will pull us in the wrong direction. Just another example of why it's important for our legislatures (and increasingly, judges) to have a firm understanding of how technology works so we aren't left with these hamfisted applications of ancient regulations to modern technology.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Why is this an app? seems to be a terrible candidate in the first place. Why don't you make a website?

<comment><USER68> it's already a website? you're using it right now..

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> The time has come: OEM's that lock their users into a specific app distribution platform need to be slapped with an anti-trust lawsuit. Hard.

When you have Apple's market share... well, with great power comes great responsibility....

</comment><comment><USER70> If displaying links to other websites violates the TOS, then iOS is completely broken.

Whatever they are selling their customers is no longer the internet. It is a weird, hyper-monetized digital playpen.

</comment><comment><USER71> Enough HN pwa to test [https://hnpwa.com](https://hnpwa.com). Afcourse Apple is not fully embracing Pwa like Chrome/Google

</comment><comment><USER72> I am curious if that kind of arbitrary myopic judgement will hurt Apple in the long term, as influential developers end up using Android because it supports more options.

</comment><comment><USER73> I just wrote up a long response to this rather than in comment form:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442147](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442147)

The main issue is - don't be a sharecropper. The problem is that many people can't avoid it and get sucked in regardless.

</comment><comment><USER74> Why is there a need for a "Hacker News client"? It's a web site.

<comment><USER75> So is Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> why bother making a native app ? simply, when a web app would suffice in terms of a PWA o? Aye, fuxk the so called walled gardens.

</comment><comment><USER77> your app mechanics aren't that much different than Reddit, am i wrong? How is Reddit doing it without being removed?

</comment><comment><USER78> The downside of curated app stores...

</comment><comment><USER79> "But others do it too" is always a weak defence.

<comment><USER80> Precedent is important. So important in fact that it is a widely used mechanism in courts of law when an issue is not cut and dry. If you lay out a set of rules which are only randomly enforced then your 'rules' become useless.

<comment><USER79> I didn't know Apple now was a "courts of law" in the US, this is huge!

<comment><USER80> Well that's one way to interpret what I said...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> > As for their alternatives, kicking the user out to Safari would > significantly reduce the usability of the app.

Not at all.

When you open a website in Safari from an app, the user gets a first class website-browser experience without your chrome, and a "< Back to your app" button in the menuline.

<comment><USER80> It opens the page in a WebView. What's the problem?

<comment><USER36> They're saying it's a better experience. I'm saying I'd rather have it in the browser that I already use. Good example being that I want to keep the article open or accumulate them in Safari instead of have this weird modal article- viewing system in the app.

Various Reddit apps inline articles and I think it's just a worst experience.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> Have you tried to be wealthy and/or an important app developer?

<comment><USER82> Rules 1 and 2.

<comment><USER81> What are you refering to? HN guidelines?

I was just trying to be funny as well as point out the obvious reason why Apple won't care about him :)

<comment><USER83> I think s/he is saying - Rule 1: be wealthy, Rule 2: be an important app developer

<comment><USER81> Of course that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> >kicking the user out to Safari would significantly reduce the usability of the app

Am I the only one who HATES when apps open links inside a webview and you have to tap yet another button to open the link in Safari? Most apps do that and they annoy the hell out of me.

</comment><comment><USER85> It's fine if Apple wants to control their store, but that only apps approved by them, in their store, should be allowed ... should be illegal.

</comment><comment><USER86> I wouln't like if someone scraped my web site, and put it in a iPhone app. Why not just open the links in a web browser !?

<comment><USER87> ...that's what the app is doing.

It was just opening the links in a webview inside the app instead of tossing the user over into Safari every time they click a link. There was no scraping happening.

<comment><USER86> How much control do the app have over a web-view? Would it for example be able to log user input (steal passwords), or insert content (ads) ? Do the web view make it's own https request ?

<comment><USER88> The app can tell the webview: open this URL. That's pretty much it. Injecting could theoretically happen, but only by showing a page that looks like the original but isn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> Sounds like their problem is that you don't have permission from Hacker News to launch a Hacker News app? To be honest, this is a good policy - the app store is inundated with shitty apps that capitalize on well known properties in this way and monetize their users with ads for even shittier apps, with straight up scams being the plankton on which this ecosystem depends.</comment>