Ask HN: How to stop feeling depressed about whether you will be successful? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER3> YMMV but I'd encourage you to take a break from consuming "success porn" online. That's my broad term for:

Social media: because people curate everything and only post things that make their lives look amazing. Real life isn't a constant string of wins, success, and happiness. Don't let it distort your view and wonder why your life isn't the same.

Startup news: TechCrunch, Recode, Bus. Insider, and even here on HN. Post after post about YC, funding rounds, growth, and–of course–big exits. Its easy to find them but the truth is, they are outlier events. If a big startup exit is something you want–fine, by all means go for it–but don't let any article fool you into thinking its easy or guaranteed if you follow some formula. It's not. Startups are hard. There is no guarantee of success because some things are beyond your control.

Success celebrities: avoid videos, podcasts, ebooks, and online courses from _celebrity entrepreneurs_. These are people who have had moderate success with a blog/vlog/startup/book/whatever and now want to teach everyone else how to do it. Truth is, they just want to take your money and time. The only thing you might learn is how to be just like them (yuck).

Hope that helps. Lots of other good advice here. Find other things to put your energy into and good luck!

<comment><USER4> Any non-"success porn" sites you might recommend?

I know this differs between people but I'd be interested to know what sites you view as the opposite of those listed.

<comment><USER5> Entrepreneur communities like [https://www.indiehackers.com/](https://www.indiehackers.com/) and [http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/](http://discuss.bootstrapped.fm/)

<comment><USER6> They're nice, but I feel that these communities will evolve into success porn unless actively checked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Be Marcus Aurelius. Become a stoic.

Think more of virtue than of success. Success is a hollow word, like in nutrition "it's an empty calorie". Rather focus on the virtues of your life. Those are life-giving, filled with "soul nutrients".

So ... dammit man:

Feed the cat. Take the dog for a walk. If that's all you do today, you made it.

Help a struggling neighbour make that rent payment just this month - do it anonymously. No one needs to know. Certainly not him!

Call your mom. Tell your Dad you understand. Call your sister/brother - ask if you can help in any way you can - then help.

Try to read Robert Sapolsky - he says you really don't have free will - <USER2> man - it's rather comforting to forgive yourself thoughtfully. He is a great man actually.

Forgive. Force a smile when thoughts of failure intrude. "Eyebrow" as you pass someone today with a friendly but subtle smile. (You don't want to be creepy)

Listen to Carl Sagan's "Pale blue dot" speech. Then watch the Cosmos series - both the new and old ones. See if that makes you feel you're worrying about the right stuff.

Finally, be like Francisco Goya and "paint" (write software, build a house, make music, write a poem) ONLY for yourself. Begin with the intention that your work will never be allowed to be judged by another. Keep it hidden. Chip at it everyday.

Hit the cool pillow every evening imagining that just ONE more day is good enough for you to fill it up with things like the above. Perhaps even better ones.

<comment><USER8> Lovely comment. FWIW - I found the Enchidrion ([http://www.ideonautics.net/manual2.htm](http://www.ideonautics.net/manual2.htm)) to be the best introduction to Stoic philosophy.

<comment><USER9> Seneca's Letters on Ethics is wonderful, also. Such an extraordinary writer, and such a lovely edition. [https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Ethics-Lucilius- Complete-Anna...](https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Ethics-Lucilius-Complete- Annaeus/dp/022626517X)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Being depressed is a state of mind. Being successful or not has not much to do with it (which is proven in many papers). Anxiety about failure is just a way that it manifests. Your brain always finds some ways to rationalize things that it observes. That's its job.

So if you feel a bit of rush because you really want to succeed, or if you think about things that may go wrong in order to take actions to minimize the risk - that's perfectly fine and embrace it. But if it really brings you down, then it's a depression problem, not a startup problem and that's what you want to solve.

I'm sure you've heard many many times how failures are necessary learning experience and all that stuff. But if your brain chemistry is not ok, your brain will rationalize it away - "but that's my only shot" and so on. Once again, you need to fix that chemistry. HN will offer you many suggestions some of them very reasonable, but it's likely that a professional will give you some better options.

<comment><USER11> > but it's likely that a professional will give you some better options.

Just want to echo this. If the issue, you suspect, is mostly about depression, just go to a Shrink. They're about as much as a Friday night at the bar, and they really do help out. Maybe try a few of them out and decide. But really, just do it.

Also, eat right, exercise, and sleep enough. I mean, duh. But it really does help a ton.

<comment><USER12> Re: therapists - could be cheaper, depending on the bars. Check for 'sliding scale'.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Practice gratitude for the things that are going right in your life. Try and be kind to yourself.

People you perceive as "successful" may themselves be facing internal hardships. Placing self-worth in externally-controlled goals sets you up to feel bad about your place in life.

I used to beat myself up about my current progress and constantly comparing myself to others. Once I stopped doing that and instead focused on making small incremental goals, I started to feel much happier. It seems counterintuitive, but once I stopped focusing on "success", I became much more successful in what I actually wanted to accomplish.

<comment><USER14> I second this. I used to think practicing gratitude was stupid, or at least not really worth my time. I have recently picked up stoicism and one key techniques seems to be "practicing negative visualization" \- basically imagining how much worse of you could be. I found that once I really think through all the hardships that I could find myself in I appreciate my current situation much more and feel much happier.

Curiously, I think I also get more done now because I feel better, am in a better mood and spend less time anguishing about all the things which are not perfect or could somehow be better. It has also made me aware that many people do find themselves in various hardships and my appreciation for my situation has really grown again through this.

Stop being so hard on yourself and cut yourself some slack - if you're the perfectionist type (like me) it does a lot more harm than good!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> worrying about success is unmitigated idiocy. everyone gets caught up in this herd mentality of wanting to have the best image on instagram and etc. when i was in college, 90 percent of the other people in the cs program were blatant zuckerberg wanna-bes. they all carried around a silent, bulging arrogance because they thought they were going to be rich. they also felt anxiety about being successful and their response was to double down on computer science. instead of questioning the anxiety itself -- the basics -- they embark on a long, demented journey of trying to become rich and look good on instagram at the cost of everything else in their lives. one day the waves of time will wash over the stories of these peoples lives, leaving behind the rational and impersonal perspective that is only ever widely endorsed in retrospect. and those people who agonize over how successful they look in this time of instagram will be considered idiots. you got bent over by the sentiment of the herd. you allowed your life to be made miserable for no reason. and the ultimate precipice of irony is that this success mentality and social media posturing goes completely against everything that the founders of computer science believed -- their culture.

here is my advice to you. take care of your financial needs. engineer your life so that you are stable financially while maintaining the most modest life-style that is comfortable. in other words, get yourself to a point where the practical aspects of life no longer are a problem. no, i never said it was easy. after that, pursue the tangible aspects of success, or pursue anything you want to, without worry. i say that almost nobody said on their death-bed that they regretted not working harder or that they regretted spending too much time enjoying nature, traveling or spending time with the people they loved. use that fact as a guide-line for choosing what to do.

<comment><USER16> Amen.

Take a look at Maslow's hierarchy from time to time, and think about this success treadmill you've signed up for, success is nowhere in that triangle. Neither is power.

What are you planning to use success and power for? Are you trying to spend your way into esteem? Belonging? Force them to respect you? Do you think self actualization requires ordering people around? Do you think if you are powerful enough that the love of your life can't die from a tragic car accident, an aneurism, or cancer?

You can't control as much as you think you can, and sometimes that's a good thing. Fortune favors the prepared mind, but you can show up and still strike out, or you can find more success than you deserve. Recognize your good fortune.

Remember that the guy making you coffee is a person with feelings. If everybody were like you then you'd have to drink coffee you made and take your own trash to the dump and do your own plumbing. If anything these people are doing a service to society. Charity work, if you will. Respect it.

<comment><USER17> Self-actualization involves reaching what you feel is your full potential and that is success, where the definition of success is different for each person (just like potential).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I think its so awesome that you are not only bringing this up on HN, but you also seem to have a genuine desire to be successful. Its probably for a noble idea, perhaps it is to make your parents happy, perhaps it is to improve other people's lives around you?

I don't know your goals, but I felt something similar myself a few years ago. Looking back, the main cause of my unhappiness was that my idea of 'success' was what the media depicted: nice house, nice car, big philanthropy initiatives, etc and that wasn't normal. It wasn't normal for me to work hungrily towards financial success. When my friends wanted to hang out, I declined because I was 'too busy trying to change the world'.

Eventually, my scope shifted from "changing the world" to helping those around me. I taught a few friends how to code over the years and helped them get jobs. Now we all bought modest houses next to each other and we hangout all the time, volunteering together and teaching more people how to code. I'm much happier now that I have redefined my meaning of success.

I hate mainstream media and the unsustainable consumerism and desires it creates. It makes it harder than ever to find yourself. Get off Facebook and other media for awhile, hangout with your friends and family more, and I hope you successfully redefine what success mean on your terms.

</comment><comment><USER19> I guess you need to define what "successful" is first. Is that a certain amount of money like a million dollars, or is it fame, or a comparison with someone else? Most of the time our definition of success is so vague that you will never feel successful how hard you work or what you achieve.

Secondly, I think it is also priority. What's important to you in life? For me, I think it would be my physical and mental health, my family and other things before money. What are your priorities? Is it your top priority to be successful? Or if your priorities are like mine then where are you with that?

Lastly you can try the "vertical arrow"[1] technique which keeps asking the question "What if it was true?". So as an example:

"I will never be successful"

-> "What if it was true?"

-> "I will never have money"

-> "What if it was true?"

-> "I will never be able to impress the ladies"

-> "What if it was true?"

-> "I'll be alone"

-> "What if it was true?"

-> "Everyone will think of me as total loser", etc.

-> "What if it was true?"

Then you write the rational explanation for each with the cognitive distortions in your thoughts. I'm not an expert but do try it maybe it will help you out. It certainly is very powerful stuff to fix your mood instantly.

[1] [http://webedulab.org/ows/wca/beck/vert_atech.htm](http://webedulab.org/ows/wca/beck/vert_atech.htm)

</comment><comment><USER20> You can mitigate a lot of these feelings by being aware of your exposure. This community in particular can make even the dazzlingly brilliant feel lumpy and unmotivated.

There was an interesting study[0] done on Facebook users in University that had the following conclusion. A quote from it:

 _The multivariate analysis indicated that those who have used Facebook longer agreed more that others were happier, and agreed less that life is fair, and those spending more time on Facebook each week agreed more that others were happier and had better lives._

We tend to get blasted with other peoples' expectations and visions of success. Without establishing our _own_ definition, we'll never find that illusory success that we've projected upon other people and other circumstances.

What's _your_ definition of success? Everyone's will be different. It might be helpful to shorten your question: How to stop feeling depressed? The bleak patterns of depression are masterful at creating a monster to slay, in this case, for you: "being successful". If that dark knot was gone, would it matter?

[0] [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22165917](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22165917)

</comment><comment><USER21> Meet a specialist a few times, there is a thin line between feeling and being depressed and it's better to know that you are not sick. Also, telling someone who is not your friend your current state of mind is a great way to make it more clear for you and see what are your problems.

Other than that? From your question the main thing would be to stop thinking about if you will be successful, as it is not a great way to be successful. Like happiness, successfulness is not a state you reach once and for all. You can be happy at work and depressed at home, successful at your gym while still not finding the right person on Tinder.

From this, here are three personal suggestions:

\- Do not only focus on work. Being successful with your friends, your family, at sports, at learning (e.g. a new language), also matters. If you are stuck at work, always have a second area where you can progress during your free time. Doing sports and learning a new language are great activities because you cannot be stuck if you actually put effort in it, and then you can share (that matters so much) with buddies you see every week at your gym or online (e.g. on Reddit).

\- Write down your core values and ambitions and put them somewhere you can read them every day. I have a few post-its right in front of me right now, written 6 months ago, and they affect my life in a positive way.

\- Make sure that even your shittiest days have good moments by design. E.g. I have chosen my flat so that I have to walk through a park twice a day, and even when I am not going well I still see dogs and kids enjoying life on my way from and to work. It motivates me a lot, those few minutes where I don't think about me and my problems but just enjoy the fact that things are already quite good. It makes me inspired and confident which is utterly important to be successful.

Good luck!

<comment><USER22> Awesome tips! I especially like your last one -- that's something I've been trying to do in my life as well. My current goal is to shape my living room into a really nice, cozy place: comfy chairs, bookshelves, nice speakers for music, soft lights, etc. So even when I have a bad day, I'll sit down on the couch in a place that I truly enjoy. I guess that's one of those "little things" in life people always advise us to enjoy :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> One thing nobody seems to have brought up, is who is reinforcing these anxieties in you.

Is it your parents, is it your friends? Is it school?

4 year olds aren't depressed about being successful - they just live their life.

As you get older, your parents think your happiness is related to making money, having a family, stuff like that.

They're right to some extent. The crucial point is since you have anxiety about this issue, what has happened is their incompetence (this is a crucial point, incompetence breeds anxiety), has created anxiety in them, and they have infected you with it.

They're anxious you're not good enough, they're anxious your grades aren't high enough, they're anxious, anxious anxious. They're comparing you to their friends' kids and they're having an internal competition - they want to tell their friends how well you're doing. Their self esteem is tied to your 'success', success they've defined for you without asking you if that's what you want (This doesn't always happen, but it is extremely common)

All this is unfortunate and extremely common. Your parents/friends are just incompetent at being happy, sorry. They mean well, they just don't know how to live happily and spread that around.

The possible solutions are:

\- to succeed, according to your parents' worldview, to shut them up

\- to disagree with their worldview and create your own (redefine success for yourself)

\- to do a combination of the two - succeed to some extent (get higher education), but also distance yourself away from them, so that their regular dose of anxiety doesn't get in the way of your self discovery

This is something everyone goes through, and doesn't get talked about enough, because most people are not aware of what really happened - they just think everyone is insecure to some extent, and that it's ok. It's not ok, but only a few will be curious enough to rediscover what THEY actually want out of life. That's what a mid-life crisis is - when people finally reach a peak in reaching what everyone else told them would make them happy, and they're not. So it's something you figure out now, or mid-life, or after, doesn't matter when really :)

</comment><comment><USER24> Define "successful".

That's not snark, it really does mean different things to different people, and your own definition will change over time.

Also consider how many people can reasonably meet a particular definition, and what they have to give up to get there.

</comment><comment><USER25> If you try as hard as you can, it will breed a good sort of fatalism about being successful. You can't try harder than as hard as you can, and once you're doing everything you can, what's the point of worrying how well you'll do?

<comment><USER26> You can change what you're doing, apply the same effort, and be more successful. Roughly equivalent to mechanical leverage. Some management types even call it that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> One potential mitigation...move some place where the cost of living is dramatically lower.

Depending on your field of expertise, it can make a big difference. The bigger safety net reduces stress levels.

</comment><comment><USER28> (Edit: I wrote this assuming you were talking about your startup, I may have misread the question. It probably still applies.)

You have to separate yourself and your identity from that of your startup. Yes you live and breathe it but no you are not it. I was my startup and when it fell I fell. It took years to recover, multiple moves, etc. Your startup is just something you're doing. It doesn't matter if it is successful or not because the only thing that matters is that you have finite time on this Earth.

If you aren't capable of doing something without going crazy and losing years and years of your precious life due to panic, then you sure as shit shouldn't have been doing it.

Keep things in perspective. Success is nice, but you will learn a lot from your startup if it fails and you will be better for it. You will have a higher chance of success doing your next startup, and you will have life experience that you can't get any other way.

If you do good work there and it fails, people will still respect what it was and who worked on it.

Stay strong, keep things in perspective, and enjoy what you do. You cannot change the world if you can't stay stable yourself. The only way you can change the world is if you are okay with yourself first.

</comment><comment><USER29> Redefine "successful" to describe a place you're already in. Realize that successful people still experience failures, and yet remain successful.

</comment><comment><USER30> Listen to some talks by Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell. It helped me a lot to take a step back and accept here and now instead of worrying about the future. In other words, the only way you are going to end up looking back on a life full of good memories, is to make it good here and now(!), not in the future.

<comment><USER31> I found listening to anything by Alan Watts to be highly demotivating. Ymmv, of course.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I think of it this way: We are survival machines who evolved sensory-motor brains for the purpose of making ever better decisions about which moves will increase our ability to survive and thrive. Pain is a signal that our predictive model of the world is incorrect. We made a bad move. Our predictive model needs to be revised. Rumination is the way in which the brain seeks to discover a better predictive model. If instead of productively pondering we choose to think thoughts of powerlessness which disrupt the rumination process and bring forward momentum to a halt, we are subverting our forward momentum. We should strive to discipline our mind to feel intense aversion towards allowing such unskillful thoughts to form and harden into beliefs.

</comment><comment><USER33> The number of people responding is very encouraging to see.

To answer the question, I echo and endorse what one user has already posted -- practice gratitude and be nice to yourself. It's very easy to get caught-up thinking we're not enough these days, and social media likely exacerbates it. I'm not going to tell you to get off of social media, but try appreciating all the things you do well and find things you like about yourself.

Lastly, I'm not too big into self-help books, but if there's one that's helped me it's The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown. The gist is start loving yourself for who you are, recognize that you are enough, and understand the difference between shame and guilt (and why guilt is ok but shame is bad).

</comment><comment><USER34> The majority of people aren't successful. 9 out of 10 startups fail. On HN you tend to hear from the success stories (survivor bias)

Maybe have some other goals in life that you can achieve and be happy. A family. Painting. Music. Sport.

I'll never bee a pro-kiteboarder, but I still enjoy it.

<comment><USER35> The people who work at failing startups are often successful people. They get other jobs.

<comment><USER34> It depends on OPs definition of successful. Raising a happy family is success. A lasting legacy of a decent human being.

Money as they keep telling us doesn't make you happy.

I live in an area where rich folk come to retire. It's sad seeing old men get excited about surfing, snorkelling, SUPing, kitesurfing, rock climbing... you guys could have been doing this 20 years ago, but you chased the big fat $$$ ... I guess at the time it made them happy. Successful. I don't know. Is there a real answer to the question?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I used to feel intense self imposed pressure to succeed financially. I have yet to achieve that but I don't think about the abstract concept of success and "swimming pools of money" anymore. What changed for me was moving cities and meeting new friends. It turns out I wasn't happy with my life and making lots of money seemed like the best escape to something better. If you feel depressed I would recommend you expose yourself to new people by enrolling in a program or starting a new job. You're one friend or relationship away from a life you wouldn't trade for millions.

</comment><comment><USER37> A little nihilism legitimately helps me. One day, the sun will expand and, most likely, engulf the inner planets. Save for a few hunks of metal and bursts of energy, all that was, is, and will be of earth will be incinerated, and rather spectacularly, I might add. We'll (most likely) be long gone by then, but I find comfort recognizing that my life is but a short blip on the cosmological timeline, and as such, I shouldn't take life too seriously. Live well, if you can. Be kind to others, love as much as possible, but remember, as they say: you can't take it with you.

</comment><comment><USER38> Right now I'm about to start my first job after college, and have been struggling for a few months before (by some unrelated reasons). Now I find I don't need trying to be successful for its own sake, I treat it as a journey to find my own value. Instead of fixating on a single, true way to succeed (which often depends on a lot of factors outside your control), I keep multiple scenarios with "true" and "flexible" ending. While I will work for the true ending, ending up at a flexible ending suffices.

</comment><comment><USER39> Redefine "success" to center around fulfilling relationships and "enough to live on without constantly worrying" instead of around money and possessions and glory and adulation.

</comment><comment><USER40> I know this is easier said than done -- finding a significant other and having a meaningful relationship.

Having someone you really love, that also love you back and give you support, will get you through whatever failure you do and will go through.

If you're currently in the mindset where all you can think about is taking your startup to success and not caring about anything else like personal relationships, it might be time for a change. Look not for random hookups, but seek a real relationship with someone that matters.

<comment><USER41> That's the best ! (y)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I think competition is wired into us, so you are not the only one who goes through this. Just try to keep it within a healthy range. Enough to know what's going on, but less than what gets you worked up about it. Not easy.

Personally, am fine with moderate success and having my time free to pursue interests - learning, reading, etc. But I am bothered about it, when friends ask me about it. As in general, if someone has chosen an off beat path (i.e. startup or similar or anything other than _normal_ corporate life) people have more questions.

Also, we all wish that we ought to be more successful than we are. Am middle aged (40s), so have some regrets about not investing better. Not that have done bad. But could definitely have done better, if devoted more time on it, than focusing 100% of energy on startup.

Added later: (In the vein of some other comments) Today morning, I did an exercise, of trying to remember, how many people I have helped in life, in a way that their life got better. And also trying to remember how many people who helped me in a similar way. The exercise left me happier. Just stating it here, to say there are several ways of measuring our lives.

</comment><comment><USER43> Work on not desiring outcomes so much. You have little control over it. Do the best you can, and appreciate the journey. You can even learn to appreciate pain and suffering as interesting phenomena. Meditation can make them less overwhelming or vexing. Let go a little. Be in the moment. Notice and observe. Judge yourself less. Enjoy cheap or free entertainment, fresh air, and exercise.

</comment><comment><USER44> Lots of good advise here. One further thought I would add based on recent experience is to define.

Failure at my company is running out of money. The mission is one I want to work on for a long time, so it's only failure if we run out of money. I'm not measuring opportunity cost, it's our own capital, and it seems to be worth continuing in a sense that we still have new ideas to try and customers to talk to and learn from, so running out of money is failure and everything else is learning and growing.

Failure in my personal life would just be failing to live up to my commitments to the people that depend on me and that I care about. I choose what my commitments are, and they are entirely internal to me and not comparable to other people, so I have a strong internal locus of control about it and don't worry about comparing myself to others.

Success is nebulous. Failure is pretty clear. If you are fear motivated like I am, the lack of an apartment is more motivating than the fantasy of the mansion. So that's how I have done it lately.

</comment><comment><USER45> Ketamine. LSD. Significant Other. Money in the bank.

</comment><comment><USER46> What means success to you? Why does that one thing matter more than others. I've done this and realised that what I thought my yardstick for success was more other peoples.

I don't know if it's on this topic, but the book "The Subtle art of not giving a f*&k" is something I want to read (or listen to) as I think it's written to help this mindset.

</comment><comment><USER47> There's a lot out there saying to focus on the journey and not the destination.

The best advice a mentor gave me is to realize that the destination is developing the best mindset for any journey.

There is no better feeling than learning, knowing and remembering where your compass is headed and chasing after it without thinking of success, because it is success.

Results, and progress become a product of multiple destinations on the journey. What kind of mindset?

Reframe success to be having the opportunity to try things and learn things every day. If you do the right things, and become the best you can be, success will chase you.

The other is to learn a practice of patience while working hard.

In the meantime, grow. Travel to places that make you uncomfortable to widen your spectrum of human experience - it will not only stretch you apart, it will create space for new growth. The more life experience you have, the better you'll know yourself, and the more well rounded you will become. It is a self-feeding loop of positivity.

</comment><comment><USER48> Exercise a lot. Practice yoga. Be detached from the uncontrollable outcomes and focus all your energy on doing what you can do.

</comment><comment><USER49> Smaller goals, easily achievable.

This is true both for you, or if you're teaching to someone else. By creating smaller goals, you can achieve them and get a sense of satisfaction, which is very important to move forward.

Once you get use to this, you can extend the scope of your goals, and you'll get smart enough to view even failures as partial successes, learn from what you did bad, and build upon what you did right. But if you never experience the satisfaction, you'll never be able to distinguish it in the chaos of dissatisfaction and failure.

I'd recommend starting with 1 small easily achievable activity per week for a month or two, and grow from there. This may include publish a 1min-read blog post, create a small webpage, read N articles, etc. Don't overthink where you want to go, just start by getting things done.

</comment><comment><USER50> There's no point in your life where you'll cross some barrier and think "well, I'm successful now." Stop caring about it so much and focus efforts on better things: finding fulfillment in doing good work, nurturing relationships with other people, and enjoying life.

</comment><comment><USER51> Zuckerberg is a few years older than I am and I compared myself to him back in the day. It's pretty easy to get depressed if you compare yourself to others.

I've found that focusing on yourself and not giving a shit about what other people think worked for me, that and just doing the best you can.

</comment><comment><USER52> Realize that worrying has no value, it will stand in your way. It wastes your time and energy, making you less likely to succeed.

Face the fact that a lot of things in your life are out of your control, and the best thing you can do is steer all of your focus and mental energy away from pointless anxiety and into taking the actionable steps towards your goals.

Practice meditation to develop the skillset and mental discipline that will allow you to focus on taking actionable steps instead of dwelling on stuff you can't do anything about.

Always do your best relative to the state that you're in. Optimize your knowledge (by learning and reading a lot), and behavior (by taking the right action according to your best judgement). Beyond that - let go and let the chips fall where they may.

</comment><comment><USER53> I started going to the psychologist to work on my anxiety/depression and so far I'm seeing good results.

A good psychologist will work on understanding the root cause of your depression, make sure you acknowledge it, and change your thoughts and actions so you can cure it.

I recommend giving it a try.

</comment><comment><USER54> Talk to a psychotherapist.

You need someone to ask you probing questions about why you're depressed about it.

If you can't afford to do it just write your thoughts down. I try to work my way through my worst fears step by step writing each thought. Usually I find I end on a positive note.

</comment><comment><USER41> Define "Happiness" as your success criteria. Don't tie happiness with anything materialistic, like "Learning ML", Spinning up a Bot in AWS, Doing that cool BlockChain crashcourse, demos.

Do something to the _person_ you care about, (or) the _persons_ who care about you. Like, go for a walk with them. Speak about all the moments that you missed to recognise/understand/been insensitive to them.

After all "Succesful" is like a user story that your product manager promised to fill the "acceptance criteria" for. That will never have an end. Succesful is a state of mind like depression and you have the choice to choose between being succesful or depressed in whatever you do.

All the best.

</comment><comment><USER55> Well for sure it's harder in this day and age because you are exposed to so many people who appear to be successful and/or flawless (repeat 'appear'). Generally prior to the internet at least when I was growing up not the case. Like I am sure my dad never lost any sleep over how rich Howard Hughes was (the de facto billionaire of our day). There was of course variations of 'the rich guy in the neighborhood' [1] but you could normally identify flaws in them to make yourself feel better about why our house was smaller or your car was less expensive.

[1] As it happens that guy in particular who bought his 16 year old son an expensive car (for that time period) ended up in bankruptcy.

</comment><comment><USER56> Sell everything you own, buy some land in the country, quit your job and just chill out. Grow a garden, raise some chickens, go to farmer's markets and sell your wares. The happiest people I know quit tech years ago and became small- time farmers.

<comment><USER57> You forgot the first step for this which is to be independently wealthy and not actually need the income from your little farm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> > How to stop feeling depressed about whether you will be successful?

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." ― Viktor E. Frankl

You may find Frankl an excellent read for perspective > [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4069.Man_s_Search_for_Me...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4069.Man_s_Search_for_Meaning)

</comment><comment><USER59> Define "success" for yourself, instead of defining it based on the stories of extraordinary individuals, or on what others define as successful.

Also, understand that success is a temporary, fleeting thing. You'll be successful, but when you'll be alone with yourself, in your bed, in the bathroom, with earbuds in in the car or the bus etc., if you're not happy or at peace, than that's worth nothing.

Are these cliches? Yes. But they are so for a reason.

</comment><comment><USER60> Hmm...

My advice to you is you got to keep moving. Right now you are sitting down trying to figure things out. WRONG.

Don't try to figure things out. Take action. Move so much that you don't have time to think about how unsuccessful you are. And If you are moving, might as well do something useful.

The easiest way I know how to change my emotions is just start doing something, anything. Go for a walk. Write a blog post.

Also, if you your room is messy and disorganise, might want to start with that first.

</comment><comment><USER61> You need to define "successful". To me success goes like this: physically healthy, emotionally connected to your close family, a place to stay, enough money to eat and take care of you and your loved ones if you're not single (spouse, children). That's alteady a lot. Luck is a big part of that success so if you can check all these boxes, you're doing very well. Oh... and the rest is 100% extra.

</comment><comment><USER62> If you want more information than can be given by a comment from a friendly stranger, I'd suggest reading "How to Be an Imperfectionist" by Stephen Guise. Although I'd assume that most of the advice in this book is obvious to most people, for a "perfectionist" like me, it helped me to unravel my illogical views of success and personal expectations that I had built over the course of my life.

</comment><comment><USER63> My whole perspective changed greatly when I started to define success to be focused on what I want to be true about how I spent my time each day (e.g. on something I was truly passionate about), rather than an outcome like some financial event or some position.

Of course, it took me years to figure out what I would be passionate about doing that I would also earn a living off of!

</comment><comment><USER64> You have to be careful in how you define "success" and recognize that you cannot achieve it by aiming for it as an abstract goal unto itself. Instead, you have to introspect and work toward your personal values. For an extended discussion, listen to this podcast:

[https://youtu.be/eok34BJwIm4](https://youtu.be/eok34BJwIm4)

</comment><comment><USER65> You, like me and the rest of us, have a limited amount of time in which to live. When you are gone, memories of you and your achievements in life will fade, and eventually disappear - regardless of how much of an impact you made. So, whether you are a 'success' or otherwise doesn't matter at all on a long enough time scale. Does that help?

</comment><comment><USER66> It's not specific to success, but my friend recently launched an anti-anxiety website with tips based on published research papers. You can click the "source" link in the bottom left to see the science journal the tip is based on.

[http://howdoifeellessfuckinganxious.com](http://howdoifeellessfuckinganxious.com)

</comment><comment><USER67> Multiple critically important things in your life. Prioritize all of them, and set boundaries to maintain this with yourself and others.

This allows your metrics of success to be distributed, success in any topic on your critical list will tend to outweigh your stresses. Also your successful topic will likely rotate among these as nature allows.

argmax happiness through ensemble methods

</comment><comment><USER68> Sorry for being cliche but since you have time and energy to worry about being "successful" it means you are already successful. All your basic needs are taken care of, otherwise it wouldn't even appear to you ask this question. The freedom to worry about "success" is a privilege few people on this planet can afford.

</comment><comment><USER31> Since you're likely young and able, keep in mind you're not old or dead. Life is very much more or less predictably finite, so being young with the opportunity to possibly be successful should drive you.

Better to be in a position where there's still time to be successful, rather than old, homeless, sick, estranged, destitute, and desiring only to die.

</comment><comment><USER69> Try being a pessimist, it's the best way to be happy.

Assume you will fail. If you're right, it feels good to be right. If you succeed, well it feels good to succeed, and you can ignore your failed prediction.

Also, try lowering your standards. You must know (of) someone who is doing worse than you. Compare to them, instead of to someone who is doing better.

</comment><comment><USER70> Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill

I don't normally take these kind of quotes to heart but having a constant fear of failure and wondering what success is I think the above for me really helps put this in context.

</comment><comment><USER71> If you have a room to live in and food on your table, you already are successful. Enjoy life.

<comment><USER72> But the brain doesn't work like that. It's a bit like telling someone who's depressed "next time you feel down, just smile!"

I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think it helps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER73> Enjoy the process, do your best and don't be too obsessed with the result.

You will learn something along the way, anyway.

I have some failed projects behind me, but do not regret it, it was a nice time spent with other people and it got me where I am now.

Fail again, fail better.

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER74> The problem with success is that it makes you always look forward. But sometimes you need to take a break and look back at your achievements sofar. It helps to look at them independently and not comparing with other people.

</comment><comment><USER75> This whole book - The subtle art of not giving a F __* is based on this point. Mark Manson has done an amazing job of listing out how this could be handled.

</comment><comment><USER76> First, figure out why this is an issue for you. Once you have the answer to that, it will be a vastly easier problem to solve.

</comment><comment><USER77> Measure success against your past self, not against your "dream goal" or against the most successful of your peers.

</comment><comment><USER78> define and potentially reevaluate what success means to you. chances are that goal will shift considerably with lifes up and downs over your next 20-40 years, not once but several times. Acknowledging these changes, reduce a lot of stress, as you realize most of what you feel strongly about doesn't matter any more in a few years

</comment><comment><USER79> A sentence I like (and often forgot :() : "The process is the purpose"

</comment><comment><USER80> Er ... is that a trick question?

Given that over 99.99% of the population cannot possibly be defined as "successful" by most standards (unless "eating and breathing" qualify), why would you make your life even harder with that?

<comment><USER76> _unless "eating and breathing" qualify_

There are people who legitimately have trouble with that who would be thrilled if they could pull that off better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER81> Don't worry and just do things you enjoy

</comment><comment><USER82> You could try SSRIs, they worked for me

<comment><USER83> Please visit a psychiatrist; Let them decide if you need SSRIs.

<comment><USER84> Psychiatrists don't have special powers when it comes to choosing an SSRI, the process is almost entirely trial and error.

There is nothing wrong with going to a general practitioner, trying Lexapro, and if you don't feel anything on that, trying Wellbutrin, and then on down the line.

If you administer the Beck Depression inventory to gauge your own mood on some consistent basis before and after starting antidepressants you will be introducing far more of the scientific method into the process than most psychiatrists will.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_Depression_Inventory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_Depression_Inventory)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> Go talk to your doctor

</comment><comment><USER86> Get off Hacker News

<comment><USER42> May be filter HN, for not reading stories that make you feel worse about yourself. I just looked at my saved stories, based on that, I would say "not, at all" to leaving HN. Sample below:

1\. Ethereum programming for web developers (happyfuncorp.com) 202 points by aaron_p 45 days ago | un-favorite | 76 comments

2\. Email is your electronic memory (fastmail.com) 1248 points by brongondwana 18 days ago | un-favorite | 287 comments

3\. The Great American Share – Sam Altman Interview on Basic Income (spectacle.com) 134 points by kevin 81 days ago | un-favorite | 375 comments

4\. How Roy Baumeister challenged the idea of self-esteem (2014) (medium.com) 141 points by evilsimon on Feb 15, 2015 | un-favorite | 82 comments

5\. SpaceX's Falcon Heavy successfully launches (techcrunch.com) 2968 points by mpweiher 26 days ago | un-favorite | 888 comments

6\. Stanford CS007: Personal Finance For Engineers (cs007.blog) 1089 points by destraynor 3 months ago | un-favorite | 345 comments

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> Whats successful?

</comment><comment><USER88> stop caring.

</comment><comment><USER89> Maintain multiple independent identities. Exercise and make friends with people who do your preferred activity.

If you have a startup or a high profile job, blog or tweet as your own persona about topics that do not fall under your line of work, but are still interesting to you.

Keep up friendships and dating and when you talk about work, only do so when it is a good story.

Socialize with people that live differently than you. There's nothing as encouraging as talking with a bartender your same age that has a few housemates and can't decide if they should go to grad school. You realize that you have lots of time to figure things out and to try many things in life

<comment><USER24> "Maintain multiple independent identities" is extremely good advice.

As a student I had a moment when I decided that the standard geek "identity package" of things one was supposed to like and do was ... limiting, and that it would be better to have a wider set of interests.

<comment><USER90> Accepting the "package" is almost like embracing a cult, the cult of conformity, making itself easier to predict and monetize by the omnipresent algorithms of the tech giants that seem to have replaced god by a lot of data- crunching, leaving humanity to devise new schemes of control.

This is a rejection of the process of discovery of oneself and of a, somehow Nieztschean, independent and autonomous path in life.

Independent identities allow you to construct your being with many different fragments and melt them into one, like a Picasso painting or Vivaldi's Four Seasons play.</comment></comment></comment>


Form a California LLC in 10 minutes for $70 - <AUTHOR> https://blog.bookandledger.com/topics/business-formation/form-a-california-llc <comment><USER2> Maybe I'm biased but, this is one of those times where the advice is just enough to get you into trouble.

No mention of single member vs multi-member LLC, and lack of certain liability protections with single member LLCs. Most people will have expectation of liability protection, and those single member LLCs may be surprised to find the assets of their single member LLC at risk for their personal liabilities.

No mention of tax treatment, by default single member LLC is pass through (no need to file separate federal return), but can elect to be taxed as a Corporation or S-Corporation. No mention multi-member is taxed by default as a partnership but can elect tax treatment as Corporation or S-Corporation.

No mention of an Operating Agreement, which is the controlling document; therefore, without one the LLC is governed by California Code. These issues are of great importance, example: you may have a partner and the death of the partner may result in dissolution of the LLC or maybe having a new, unwanted partner(s) (spouse and/or heirs of the deceased partner), but without the operating agreement California Law will dictate.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah this article is meant as a simple how-to for someone that has already decided they want to form an LLC in California and understand the pros and cons.

I cover some of the issues you cite in another post:

[https://blog.bookandledger.com/topics/business- formation/int...](https://blog.bookandledger.com/topics/business- formation/intro-to-forming-a-business)

<comment><USER3> Yeah the original article is almost worthless.

The 2nd article you just linked is much better, and usefully informative. However, it still needs:

\- info about the need for an operating agreement

\- more detail about piercing the corporate veil

\- discussion of FTB and IRS reclassifying as hobby business

You are advertising to a very technical audience and should address these things at a deep level.

<comment><USER4> I strongly disagree with "almost worthless"; assuming you've made the decision to form a CA LLC, this post is very useful.

You're making some quite strident demands of some random person on the internet here ;)

Having said that, I too would be interested in the extra topics that you listed, particularly the operating agreement piece. I looked into this recently and NoLo offers a $100-300 service [1] which comes with options, vs. free Operating Agreements like this random one on UpCounsel[2].

I have no idea what the parameters are on this, and in the past I've just leant on a lawyer friend to do this for me; I'd like to understand the details.

[1]: [https://store.nolo.com/products/online-california-llc- ptlca-...](https://store.nolo.com/products/online-california-llc-ptlca-2.html) [2]: [https://www.upcounsel.com/single-member-llc-operating- agreem...](https://www.upcounsel.com/single-member-llc-operating-agreement)

<comment><USER3> I paid $1000 to a lawyer for an operating agreement. It was fine.

For my 2nd LLC I just copied a free template (different than my expensive lawyer'd one) since I now had a really good understanding of what needs to be there.

At first yes it's scary to think you might be getting it wrong, but you learn that it's not rocket science. It's basically the agreement between the members of the corporate structure. I haven't read the NOLO one but I bet it's good value for money.

You will generally have to present the operating agreement to the bank to open a business account, to get business financing, maybe for insurance, stuff like that.

My experience (IANAL) is that for friendly partners, the nolo template is going to be fine. If you're selling shares to folks that you don't have a history with, you may want to have the assurance of expert, personal legal advice from someone you can also go back to with future concerns. And for that kind of bigger LLC anyway, the $1000 or so is a reasonable expense.

<comment><USER5> I'm not sure a template is the way to go with multi member. If you are going multi member you should really both get a lawyer to explain the details and review the docs. I've had to unwind a multi member LLC into a single member one and gaps in our operating agreement were suddenly all too relevant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Remember that California minumum tax for an LLC is $800. EVERY YEAR. that is what you have to pay even if you lose money or do nothing. don't form an llc in 10 minutes and then screw yourself over with thousands of dollars of debt just because it makes you feel cool.

A hardware engineer just came into my office earlier with a prototype for a cheap server with a good GPU for AI tasks. He incoporated in California in 2013 and still hasn't actually gotten a product out or made sales. Meanwhile he paid 6 years of taxes * $800 = $4800. He could have bought an iMac Pro, or invested in the business in some way if he had not incorporated. You don't need to officially be an LLC or corporation for your project to be real.

If you really do need to legally form a company to separate out finances and liability, depending on what you're doing, you might want to look at starting a Delaware C corporation (they have a minimum franchise tax of $350 plus I think a $50 filing fee). If you're thinking of taking investment the rules and laws of Delaware are very well understood and there is a substantial amount of case law that makes it a lot more predictable to use their courts as almost everything that can happen has happened. So for certain types of companies it's cheaper and better. For smaller things a C corporation may be overkill and an LLC or S Corporarion may work better if you do not need to raise money.

<comment><USER7> You do realize if you do business in CA you have to pay CA taxes, right? You're mentioning Delaware but that would be for corporations and dispute management. You're not going to get away from taxes...

<comment><USER8> Right but using the example there aren't any profits to tax, so his friend would've saved several thousand dollars by having the entity registered in another state with a lower minimum. Florida, for example, is less than half of Delaware and SD is even lower. Much better choice for a one person early stage experiment.

<comment><USER9> If you live in CA you're required to file as a foreign corporate entity, and still pay the $800 in taxes. You can't open a bank account in a CA bank without proving that you've made that filing regardless of where the corp was registered.

<comment><USER10> I could be wrong but one could open a bank account in a different state. In this case he formed a business but did not make a profit or sale or employ anyone for 6 years. It doesn't make sense to form an llc unless you require it. Start smaller.

<comment><USER7> If you live in CA and are operating your business in CA, you're probably going to have a hard time arguing you don't have to pay CA tax.

<comment><USER11> Right, but the point is that he isn't operating a business at all, seeing as there's no product nor sales. So what does he have?

Maybe he doesn't need an LLC at all right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> [https://www.nvsilverflume.gov/home](https://www.nvsilverflume.gov/home)

Nevada has SilverFlume for many years. Also, no income taxes. Also, no Employment Development Department. Also, real estate at $1/sqft. Also...

<comment><USER13> ...a largely tourism and mining based economy that has failed to attract high- tech talent.[1][2]

[1] [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/09/zappos-ceo-tony-hsieh- what-i...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/09/zappos-ceo-tony-hsieh-what-i- regret-about-pouring-350-million-into-las-vegas.html)

[2] [https://qz.com/875086/five-years-in-tony-hsiehs-downtown- pro...](https://qz.com/875086/five-years-in-tony-hsiehs-downtown-project-is- hardly-any-closer-to-being-a-real-city/)

<comment><USER12> I wouldn't say Vegas failed to attract high tech talent. After 20 years in San Francisco and San Jose, we moved our tech businesses (and ourselves) to Las Vegas. Best decision ever.

The Downtown Project was highly ambitious - area is just now starting to take off.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> You can also do it in Florida entirely online but for $130. Wonder why the huge difference in cost.

More info:

[http://dos.myflorida.com/sunbiz/start- business/](http://dos.myflorida.com/sunbiz/start-business/)

To actually create one:

[https://efile.sunbiz.org/llc_file.html](https://efile.sunbiz.org/llc_file.html)

<comment><USER15> Also Florida requires and annual filing and associated fee of $200 I believe.

<comment><USER16> $130 up front and $200 a year beats the heck out of $70 up front and $800 a year.

<comment><USER17> If you do business in California with a FL-registered LLC, all that you have accomplished is that you now pay $130 to Florida once to register plus $200/year, then another $20+ to CA to register as a foreign LLC plus $800/year.

<comment><USER18> What does "do business in California" mean? If my LLC opens up a shop on Etsy and I ship to California customers am I supposed to register as a foreign LLC and pay $800/year?

If so, that's nuts and we need some beefier Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

<comment><USER19> No of course not. They mostly mean you literally are doing business in CA. Usually for small businesses it's because you are living there.

<comment><USER8> This right here. Office in California, business assets in California, etc will trigger the tax on profits generated from those assets. Shipping goods to California doesn't.

<comment><USER20> You can actually skirt them a bit as well even with employees or offices in CA, as long as they fall under certain defined thresholds.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Expanding on this: can someone recommend resources (books/videos/articles/etc) on holding structures (interested in US and Europe)? This is such a scammy industry and Googling only brings you so far. To clarify: I DO NOT want to evade taxes, just separate operational risk.

<comment><USER22> > _can someone recommend resources (books /videos/articles/etc) on holding > structures (interested in US and Europe)?_

Get a bottle of Scotch, clear a week-end and grab an annotated copy of Delaware's General Corporation Law [1]. Read it. Book two hours with a top- tier lawyer. Ask them questions. DE law will give you an overview with which to ask the right questions for across the U.S.

Pedantic overkill? Yes. Satisfying if you're the right personality type? Absolutely. (Caveat: the law is complex and unforgiving. Use this to ask a lawyer good questions versus pretending to be a lawyer yourself.)

[1] [https://store.lexisnexis.com/products/delaware- corporation-l...](https://store.lexisnexis.com/products/delaware-corporation- laws-annotated-skuusSku6622)

 _Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Do not form a legal entity without speaking to a lawyer._

<comment><USER23> A side note, has anyone actually ever sued anyone for not having a disclaimer? It seems a lot like don't use a hair dryer in the shower.

"I am suing because some dude on Hacker News suggested.."

<comment><USER22> It's more so someone doesn't think I'm a lawyer, follow my Internet commentary and then come to harm themselves. The disclaimer is my way of saying "I am speaking beyond my circle of competence, but still think what I have to say is interesting."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Good grief if you are this worried about these fees your company doesn't have enough revenue to justify its existence. Yes I had a Delaware c-Corp with a foreign qualification for Massachusetts, no I would not have cared about these annual fees if my company was meeting growth targets.

Please just spend a little time educating yourself about corporate structure and spend a lot of time building a company with real value. The former can typically be changed without a lot of fuss if the latter requires it.

<comment><USER25> Sure, but that doesn't really justify the fees. I keep hearing from Americans that we in Scandinavia are so heavily taxed. Very strange from me to hear about a $800 minimum tax fee. Also, not every company is a high flying startup. It might be a small hairdresser salon. $800 isn't pocket change for a small biz. In my case I have a company that has pretty much been inactive for many years as it just exists to have stocks in my previous and current startup. Wouldn't be happy about spending $800/year to keep it alive.

<comment><USER26> This is for a specific type of corporate organization in a particular state. You can start a business without forming an LLC. If you really want to pretend you are for real, you would form a delaware corporation. Delaware is a tiny state that many years ago decided to create a very well defined and (permissive) legal framework for corporate law. Virtually any reasonably sized corporation is a Delaware corporation.

Delaware does benefit from this... they get all the filing and other miscellaneous fees out of the deal as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Oregon has something similar. Was surprised how easy and fast it went through.

People saying why not form in another state: it was my understanding that while you can do this you'd still have to register with the state you're actually in so you're not saving on taxes and just spending more money by registering twice? Maybe I'm just misinformed...

<comment><USER28> In California the trigger is 'doing business in, or having facilities in California.' There were lots of interesting cases here around Amazon and others try to dodge California taxes (my mother-in-law was a CPA and had some really interesting stories about this).

One of the more interesting was an attempt to tax one of the casino owners (I believe it was Harrahs but I don't have access to the records) because they lived in California (South Lake Tahoe). That was denied because the casino did not do any business with anyone in California and the guy they were chasing didn't do any work for the casino from home.

<comment> void-star I think this points out a significant reason "why to incorporate in CA" (as is being discussed elsewhere in the comments, as in "... instead of Delaware")

Could somebody clarify? Say I want to create a corporation, and will probably do work for it from home living in California. Does incorporating in Delaware now mean I will be paying the $800 tax (or some other) for CA, in addition to whatever Delaware charges?

<comment><USER8> If you're not profitable, then the minimum fees matter. If you are turning a profit and you're living in California and working from home (and assuming you have no employees) then there's no real reason to incorporate in Delaware.

The franchise fee is 1.5% with a minimum of $800 for all profits from business generated in California. So yes you'd pay the franchise fee for CA and the $250 to Delaware

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Might want to explore if California is really where you want it. Look at the yearly annual report costs for one.

Also, with Trump's tax plan, C corps might be taxed less than you as flow through via your LLC. If your tax rate is above the new ~22% c corp rate, you might want to look at that and do a Delaware C or S Corp. Attorney; just sayin'

<comment><USER30> IANAL, but pretty sure CA LLCs allow you to elect to be taxed as an S- or C- corporation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Note that each state handles different aspects of LLC's differently. There is a reason many companies form LLC's in Nevada or Wyoming - those states have tons of legal precedence for different things pertaining to LLC's. So for example, avoiding certain types of litigation, or remaining anonymous are features of LLC's in those states.

Note, I'm not a legal person, but these are things I was told to consider when picking a state to form your LLC.

<comment><USER32> This is the first I've heard of anyone incorporating in those 2 states. It's always either Delaware or the state you're located in.

<comment><USER33> For LLC its wyoming or nevada. Corp C/S i hear delaware.

<comment><USER34> What are the advantages of incorporating an LLc in wyoming or nevada vs other locations?

Especially if you don't live there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> FYI we publish guides like this for all 50 states and have comprehensive guides including checklists for the top 7 states: [https://www.mycompanyworks.com/states.htm](https://www.mycompanyworks.com/states.htm)

</comment><comment><USER36> PSA: $800/y minimum tax for a CA LLC.

</comment><comment><USER37> Can anyone explain the pros/cons of LLC vs. a Delaware C corp?

<comment><USER38> For a traditional startup, that will (i) raise money from investors or (ii) give equity to employees, you should just be a Delaware c-corporation. Those are streamlined, known, and easy processes with a Delaware corporation. Every lawyer in this space has forms for that and can read those documents with a baseline of familiarity. If you try to innovate here and set up a startup as an LLC or a California corporation, you are complicating every corporate transaction you'll do and adding cost to every interaction with your lawyer and the counterparty's lawyer. And you will prohibit investment from certain VCs who aren't able to invest in pass-thru entities because some of their LPs manage retirement money and are subject to ERISA.

There are other businesses where an LLC makes sense, including possibly for a bootstrapped startup that will have one stockholder for its whole existence. But that's not my area.

Not even going to include a disclaimer about this not being legal advice, because I am a lawyer and this is good advice :)

<comment><AUTHOR> I would just add that tax classification and the liability protection entity are two different things. You can form an LLC and elect to be taxed as a C Corp. The upside is most states have fewer admin requirements for LLCs (e.g. you don't have to keep minutes, name officers, etc.)

As for Delaware vs. your home state (CA in this case), I think it depends on the business. If you are a multi-national corp, sure go with Delaware. But if you live in CA, the other owners live in CA, and you're mostly doing business in CA, I'm not sure you'd need a Delaware corp. Delaware has franchise taxes of its own, so you'll end up paying taxes and fees in two states because you'll have to register as a foreign corp in your home state (CA).

<comment><USER38> No dispute from me that you can save a little bit on taxes by forming a California corporation if you're in California. Specifically the ~$400 of Delaware franchise taxes. But my point is that any company doing typical startup activities will spend more than $400 extra the first time they interact with their lawyer, an investor's lawyer or the state of California.

For example - this week I'm helping someone with a simple filing in California, and the processing time is 10-12 days, unless we pay California an extra $350 expedite fee, whereas Delaware will turn the same filing around in 2-3 days with no expedite fee.

Or, for another one - in California you can't submit an electronically signed document for a filing, so you and your lawyer get to spend the extra billable time dealing with scanning PDFs instead of DocuSign.

And you get to deal with the lottery of attorney reviewers who will sometimes reject Articles of Incorporation over things that have been OK in every other document you've ever filed.

And this is all separate from the fact that the lawyers on both sides of your transaction are secretly scratching their heads while they dust off their copy of the California Corporations Code and billing your for the time they spend figuring out what's different from Delaware.

It's just not worth it for the $400.

<comment><USER39> And on top of that, when you eventually do realize you want to change the domicile to Delaware, you find out that California corporations don't allow direct conversions into Delaware corporations, so you have to pay lawyers an extra couple thousand dollars to prepare merger documents to move the entity to Delaware.

Lawyer, but not your lawyer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> This thread is really interesting, let me tell you why.

1) Forming an LLC, or a trust, or similar things, has always been considered complex, expensive, and requiring human supervision. I guess and assume that a large percentage of the population still believes it is the case.

2) This thread, however, confirms that people are ready to see #1 challenged and eventually removed. And there are numerous examples of websites, resources, etc, pointing at simple and elegant solutions that would apply to MOST cases. (deciding whether your case belongs to "most" or not might not be too simple though).

3) There is so much unexpressed potential in the ability for people to put these matters into their own hands. Don't get me wrong, experts are and will still be required in many cases, but the point still stands.

An example? Everybody owning property should use some form of legal entity to own/manage that property. Why? Because in its simplest form (a trust) it is literally cost-free, and brings several benefits out of the gate (no probate on death; legal separation between trustee and beneficiary; etc). For slightly more specific needs, an LLCs or other similar vehicles also provide great benefits (although require tax reporting, and some state and local tax to be paid each year). And these tools shouldn't be expensive. Not for most people.

In my recent experience, I have been dealing with the structure of a land trust to facilitate real estate transactions (using the Blockchain to record these transactions - before you say anything, we're not crypto fanatics, the crypto part is actually quite straightforward and not too crazy like many projects out there).

We are a startup, and we invested a significant chunk of our initial funding in fees (legal and otherwise). We intend to open source most of our outcomes eventually, and hope that MOST people will be able to actually benefit from this, instead of spending several orders of magnitude more to have it done the old way.

In that regard, the "setting up an LLC in 10 minutes for $70" is exactly how these things should be. (again, provided that you belong to the "most cases" category).

All in all, I'm really happy that this is happening.

As a side note, if you have experience with trusts and LLCs used for real estate investment, I would be very happy to chat with you - I come from the IT world (Amazon, etc) and still have a lot to learn from experienced people.

</comment><comment><USER41> The $800 annual tax is worth people knowing about.

<comment><USER42> This. Forming a company in CA is stupid, no other state has this insane tax.

<comment><USER17> Most states have minimum franchise taxes. CA charges on the higher side because CA offers the biggest market. In effect, CA is taking advantage of the libertarian free market principle of supply and demand. They have the largest supply of potential customers, and there is a large demand of businesses wanting access to those customers, and the minimum franchise fee reflects that.

You're free to set up shop in South Dakota (no minimum) and see just how many customers you find there...

<comment><USER42> You can incorporate in any state, it doesn't matter where your customers are. Most CA companies (and most companies, across all states) form in Delaware for legal reasons. CA is not a popular place to incorporate in.

<comment><USER43> But if they're located in CA, which many of them are, they still have to pay the $800.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> We first incorporated under a CA LLC. It was worthless. If you ever plan on raising money in the US, form a Delaware C-Corp through Clerky. It's cheap, fast and easy, and it will allow you to raise from VCs or any other outside investor. One reason: Delaware's jurisprudence on almost any business issue is an established matter of record, which derisks investments.

</comment><comment><USER45> I've never really understood the desire to "save" on lawyer costs up front. Lawyer money is the cheapest money you'll ever spend, if you use it right. Having a lawyer set up your company correctly from the start is not expensive. Where it does get expensive is when you try to get investment, or bought or some other event and they have to spend months unraveling the gigantic mess you've made by doing all the legal yourself based on some blog posts you read.

To save on costs, don't go to a big firm, they are expensive. Ask around and find a solid boutique firm that specialises in your area. They will often do some kind of deferment if you are really small, although there's usually a retainer.

Get it done right, the first time, and you won't have to spend money on it again. This applies to anything legal; incorporation, contracts, employment agreements, licences, etc.

</comment><comment><USER46> Dealing with the California Franchise Tax Board for a single member LLC ever afterwards is a pain. You need to file a 568 with them every year, on paper even if you e-file your CA state taxes, which includes the same data. You need to pay them $800 every year through their terrible website and its Web Pay system. Just getting an account on their website involves them sending you a magic access code in a letter which takes a week and if it doesn't work you have to start again and wait another week. If you ever forget to file something on time they fine you and charge you interest, and threaten to suspend your LLC. I wish I'd just filed a "doing business as".

</comment><comment><USER47> Yeah, I don't know about this advice.

If you are by yourself, starting a company, just go register a d.b.a (doing business as) at your local courthouse.

And yes, a CPA will cost you money, but it is something you must have right and is worth the cost. By having a CPA, you will avoid falling into a situation where you end up paying a fine, or have unexpected fees/taxes, or, more often than not, the CPA will actually show you how to structure/operate in a way that will SAVE you taxes and fees. If you are going into a partnership or S/C Corp with different owners, than the money spent on a lawyer as well as the CPA is very much worth it.

Save yourself down the road and spend the money now to do it right.

</comment><comment><USER48> I would love to see a startup package in the US (for genuine startups). No franchise taxes for three years, no employee tax—-or a simple contractor system—a simple and inexpensive corporate healthcare plan, a simple tax form for companies with little or no revenue. Running a startup is hard enough already then you have to put up with all of this admin nonsense when you're just trying to keep your head above water. Why waste all this money on lawyers and accountants when it could be put into your business.

</comment><comment><USER49> FYI, it costs $20 to file a statement of information (every other year) to establish and maintain an LLC. But it costs $800 a year in state taxes.

</comment><comment><USER50> It's important to remember that in some jurisdictions if you decide to fold your business you have to file a dissolution. Many also require that you file a yearly report. There's a few businesses that help with incorporations and it may be worth the extra fees to tap into their knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER51> This blog lists the steps to take to get a corporate file number issued from the state. It is only a subset of the steps required to fully form a corporation. If you want to form a corporation yourself, there are many books on Amazon that can walk you through the entire process.

</comment><comment><USER52> You could also use something like ZenBusiness which is free [https://www.zenbusiness.com/pricing](https://www.zenbusiness.com/pricing) . They are a startup out of Austin TX.

</comment><comment><USER53> Hey Mark - who do this in CA and not in DE?

Also, a lot of students I know would be interested in learning more about bookandledger - do you have 40 minutes to give a talk about the new co. and your past experiences?

</comment><comment><USER54> If one forms an LLC as a holding entity for child C-Corporations, would that allow the C-Corps' access to financing or would investors see the parent LLC and be turned off?

<comment><USER39> What do you mean by "allow access to financing"? A fair number of founders maintain their stock ownership through an entity like an LLC. This could be for all sorts of reasons (tax planning, separating assets/liability). I would expect a potential investor (or their lawyers) to ask for the reasoning behind the structure, but assuming it's a relatively simple answer, that would be unlikely to have any major effect on the investment decision.

<comment><USER54> Sorry, I meant 'affect' not 'allow'. But you figured it out :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> and minimum $800 fee each year to CA for no reason whatsoever

</comment><comment><USER56> What's the best way to do this in Texas for cheap?

</comment><comment><USER57> can anyone give me advice? im starting a small online service that will charge customers -- i guess you could call it a "saas." i am the only person whatsoever involved with this project. am i required to incorporate if i start charging people for my online service? do i have to file taxes as a business? isnt there a clear and straightforward guide for this kind of thing?

<comment><USER43> You would want to talk to a lawyer (which, if you are starting a business, you will want to have one), but you are not required to incorporate your business if you don't want to. However, incorporation does offer several benefits, which is why some people choose to do it.

<comment><USER57> this is what frustrates me. i cant afford a lawyer. from the looks of it, i cant afford to incorporate either. how is anyone supposed to bootstrap themselves these days?

<comment><USER43> Same way you'd bootstrap if you needed developers, and couldn't afford to hire developers. You can either study and try to do it yourself, you can offer equity (although lawyers are generally smarter than developers in this area, and few will take just equity, but you might be able to find someone), or you do it the old fashioned way and get a small business loan from a bank.

Although, as has been said, you don't need an LLC if your business is not "there" yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> If the company is worth something, 70 or or 200 isn't much apart. But if it isn't than even a 70 USD is a baggage.

I liked the 10 minute part though.

</comment><comment><USER59> 800 dollars a year even if you have no income? yeesh

<comment><USER60> Isn't that low for a business? I mean unless you're running a lemonade stand.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> I fail to see the benefit of a California LLC over an LLC in one of the other 49.

It seems to me like choosing CA over some state with less onerous taxes and is like loading a gun and pointing it at your foot. If you wind up doing business that wouldn't be subject to CA taxes then the CA taxes on that would be money down the drain.

</comment><comment><USER62> Before I read the whole article, do I have to be a US citizen to create the LLC?

</comment><comment><USER63> Don't forget, you will need to pay 800$ every year in CA sos LLC taxes

</comment><comment><USER64> The USA sucks for incorporation. Here in Canada, I can create a fully fledged federal corporation that is as bulletproof as any for personal liability, for $200.

Annually, I have to pay $20 to file an annual return. Taxes you can do yourself if they are simple - as in a single consultant.

We don't have LLCs.

<comment><USER65> You do have to file 2 tax returns and suffer double taxation for your Canadian corporation. The benefit of a LLC is that it's pass through and reported on your personal tax return. It can minimize tax prep and taxes (YMMV).

<comment><USER64> Well, it's not really double taxation because you can just flow through the income to yourself, leading to a loss for the company and a profit to you personally.

But you are correct about the two tax return thing. That is a slight bummer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> might want to look at the advantages of other states, Nevada for instance. You can start you LLC in any state. doesn't have to be where your business is located

</comment><comment><USER67> ... and then get ready to be taxed into Bankruptcy.

CA has 1 of the highest business taxes. LLCs have to pay the State $800 every year, even if your business is losing money or has no revenue and even if you are a single-member LLC, in which case IRS regards it as a pass-through entity.

On top of that, if you form your business in San Francisco, you are mandatory charged a 4% "Healthy San Francisco" city tax that is supposed to helps pay for employee's healthcare.

> 2008 Health Care Security Ordinance, which provides health care to San > Francisco residents without insurance (the Healthy San Francisco program) > and requires businesses to help fund health care for their employees in San > Francisco.

Source: [https://www.tripsavvy.com/restaurants-healthy-san- francisco-...](https://www.tripsavvy.com/restaurants-healthy-san-francisco- surcharges-2939548)

Restaurants were busted running a scam where they passed on this tax to the customer and pocketed the $$ themselves, but that's a whole different story (see Source link above).

<comment><USER68> > ...taxed into Bankruptcy.

Given that you're taxed on profits (reductive, I know) isn't this literally impossible?

God forbid Californians value healthcare and that a city 45 minutes from the HQ of the richest company in the world, in the midst of a homelessness crisis, attempt to improve the lives of its at-risk citizens

[http://sfist.com/2017/06/26/2017_san_francisco_homeless_cens...](http://sfist.com/2017/06/26/2017_san_francisco_homeless_census.php)

<comment><USER69> Interesting how given the tax does exist, the city with the HQ of the richest company in the world is in a homelessness crisis in the first place. Perhaps these taxes are not actually useful?

<comment><USER70> Or mayhaps the tax rate is too low and should be much higher for them?

<comment><USER69> For who? Also I'm asking about effectiveness, not necessarily the amount.

If they are not useful _unless_ they are at a certain amount, then what would that be and why aren't they at that level already? And wouldn't that just mean that anything below that level actually is useless if it doesn't meet the minimum needed to do anything?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> And then owe $700 a year for minimum franchise taxes

<comment><USER46> $800

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Step 1. Don't.

Step 2. Go anywhere but California.

</comment><comment><USER73> This is stupid. California is the worst tax choice for everything.

<comment><USER74> And yet it remains one of the top destination for start-ups. Which indicates that getting rid of taxes and regulation (which states/countries do to get more business) can bring business in the short-term (companies forming subsidiaries and channelling business) but doesn't help the economy in the long term. If you have the right environment for companies to form, higher taxes don't destroy that. Sweden also appears to be a good example, high taxes and stricter regulation (partly through the EU) and still a very active start- up scene.

<comment><USER75> Sweden offers more benefits for it's taxes though. I think California is only attractive because of the SV hype.

<comment><USER74> Most of those benefits are the safety net you get if your startup fails. I think the main benefit for a startup is having similar companies close by.

<comment><USER75> Safety net not only if your startup is failing, but also while you're starting out, money to start your startup, amazing public transport, a functioning public education system which gives you employees that don't need the highest pay to service their loans, ... the list could go on for a long time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER76> The downside is that you are going to be left with a California LLC.

</comment><comment><USER77> Under a certain amount of revenue, the double taxation treatment of a C Corp actually saves you money compared to the pass through taxation most people elect as an LLC. And by the time you're making larger revenues, you'll want to be a C Corp anyway.

<comment><USER20> How would that be?

You still have to pay yourself a reasonable salary which would be taxed at regular earned income rates.

And then for any dividends you pay yourself, you are going to pay corporate tax of 21% (after Trump tax changes hit) plus 15% or more capital gains.

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> Unless you have a very good reason do not register your company in California. Most certainly not because it costs $70.

California is very backward in all sort of regulations and you will get into trouble as your company goes bigger and bigger. Always register your company in Delaware.

There is a good reason why most companies are register in Delaware or Florida and not in Communist Republic of California !

</comment><comment><USER79> haha no. Unless I specifically need US for some reason I'd rather go _anywhere_ else. And if I have to do US it'll be a Delaware partnership.

</comment><comment><USER80> This is an incredibly misleading title. They charge you $70 in filing fees, yes - and then over $800/year in annual LLC fees.

<comment><USER81> The Franchise fee is a separate issue and is charged on _any_ company doing business in CA\\... Only way to avoid it is not to be in California at all.

\edit: according to my tax attorney. Get your own legal advice, etc.

<comment><USER82> >charged on any company doing business in CA

That's not correct. It's not charged to sole proprietorships.

<comment><USER83> A sole proprietorship is not a distinct legal entity from its owner.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


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