Apache declares war on Oracle over Java - <AUTHOR> http://www.itworld.com/legal/127051/apache-declares-war-oracle-over-java <comment><USER2> I just _know_ that Stallman is doing an "I told you so" dance right about now.

<comment><USER3> Lead, follow or get out of the way. Stallman hasn't offered a better solution than Java. Java is a better choice than C or C++. Developers are simply more productive in Java. Python, Ruby, etc don't currently offer nearly the level of performance. I'm still waiting for the version of Emacs that's written entirely in Scheme.

[edit] Funny, I got voted down. Hope you guys will volunteer to rip out the Java from Open Office and rewrite it in C++.

<comment><USER4> I think RMS is now pro-Java since OpenJDK came out. Harmony is a tool of capitalist oppression anyway.

<comment><USER3> Stallman has his ideals, which is fine. However, if Java was never open sourced, he would not be in favor of it. OpenOffice was largely written in C++ because they didn't want to use Java because it wasn't open. Imagine how much more work could have been accomplished if they started with Java. Not that Java is a great, or even pretty, language. It's just a lot easier to work with than C++. Someday, we'll be able to move up another level of abstraction and writing software will again become easier.

My point about Stallman was that he would keep developers in the "stone ages" rather than be practical.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org#Use_of_Java>

<comment><USER5> "Practical"? Is that a good thing now?

I don't recall "practical" being synonymous with "awesome" or "excellent". "Practical" is an excellent excuse for not having principle.

I have some issues with RMS' beliefs, but I applaud the fact that he acts on principle. I wish I had embraced principle over practicality and had continued working with Ruby, rather than taking a 5 year detour through PHPland.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There's something that often goes overlooked by promoters of open source licenses: The copyright holder is defining the licensing terms for _others_ , not for themselves.

While it's true that it is culturally a faux pas to appear as though you are violating the "spirit" of your own license I think everyone needs a reminder that copyright holders are, by definition, not restricted in what they can do with their own stuff. Everyone else is a licensee bound to the terms of the license.

I realize that's not the only problem with Oracle's behavior. But I still think this point is important to acknowledge.

I'm not a lawyer, so if anyone can prove otherwise I'd love to hear the argument.

(Are there any licenses that do place limitations on the copyright holders themselves? Do we even need a mechanism for that?)

<comment><USER4> This isn't really about copyright licensing per se. Sun promised (in the JSPA and other places) that they would certify independent JVMs and then weaseled out at the last minute.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> IANAL - is it technically infeasible for Apache to fork the language and call it something else? I think it's getting to the point where if the Java community really wants to continue using this language something drastic must be done.

<comment><USER4> Google tried that and ended up on the wrong end of a patent lawsuit. The Java community is just going to keep using OpenJDK like they do now. As evil as Snoracle is being, it's mostly a theoretical problem given that so few people use Harmony.

<comment><USER8> Uh, Android uses Harmony (or a subset thereof). I think that's a rather important detail to understanding what's happening here.

<comment><USER4> I don't think it has much to do with Android, for two reasons. Google doesn't care whether Harmony gets TCK-certified or not, and the Apache-Sun spat dates from early 2007, before Android was even announced. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony#Difficulties_to_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony#Difficulties_to_obtain_a_TCK_license_from_Sun)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Can someone explain why Oracle _should_ give apache exemptions from field of use restrictions? I thought the whole point with harmony was that Apache/IBM/Intel et al were trying to create a competing vm that could be used everywhere with no restrictions, with the intent of never giving anything back to Sun/Oracle. How can this be in Oracles best interests given their large investment - or am I missing something?

<comment><USER10> Well...

(a) Java has always been marketed as an "open" environment, where alternate VM's were encouraged.

(b) Oracle doesn't make any money from the J2SE JVM anyway (it's free to use), and the income they get from licencing J2ME is dropping quickly.

(c) Apache/IBM/Intel _have_ given a _lot_ back to Java, and continue to do so. Look at their involvement on the JCP process - most JCP changes aren't led by Oracle/Sun and getting those done takes real engineering resources. The outputs of them are happily picked up by Oracle/Sun and included in Java

(d) Given that IBM/Apache have invested as much in Java as Sun/Oracle ever did it's not clear to me why Oracle _should_ try and stop them investing more to build their own VM.

In anycase IBM has given up and join Oracle on OpenJDK (instead of Apache Harmony).

<comment><USER9> a) Really? What alternate vms were encouraged? Java itself was free.

b, c) Agreed, it's a rapidly failing ship.

d) Why should Oracle care how much a competitor has spent on developing a replacement for Oracles technology?

<comment><USER10> (a) On non Sun JVM-supported platforms Sun would always point to other VM's (eg, hardware support for JVM bytecodes in ARM, etc). Also, they would quite happily discuss the benefits of using IBM's Linux JVM.

d) The Java ecosystem has grown because of the diverse range of vendors. It's easy to make an argument that JavaEE only survived the .NET onslaught back in ~2002-2005 because of the high-quality and free implementations from Apache. The current biggest growth market for Java is in non-traditional areas (eg, Google's product: AppEngine/J, GWT and especially Android). Oracle should work with these vendors to keep the Java platform relevant.

<comment><USER9> I'm not disagreeing, the ideal solution for me at least would be for Oracle to BSD java, but that's not what I would do in their situation.

Everyone else wants Oracle to license to harmony because that's best for everyone... except Oracle.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> We've waited long enough for Java 7. Let's get that one out then look at the options. Fork Java, put the effort behind another language, like Go or Scala, or simply let Oracle run with it.

<comment><USER11> The Java programming language is only part of the story. There is also this thing called the Java Platform, aka the JVM. You can't just simply switch to Scala, your Scala code needs to be executed by something.

<comment><USER12> Oh, you mean like .NET?

<http://www.scala-lang.org/node/168>

Yes, I am aware of the problems of this, too. * Not as stable as the Java backend ever was * Any code that used Java libraries explicitly needs to be rewritten * Stallman is going to throw a hissy fit about it being .NET

<comment><USER13> This page is often cited, yet referes to Scala 1.4. Can anyone point me to documentation about running Scala 2.8 on .NET? Does it work?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Just for reference, before the torches and pitchforks come out against Oracle, Apache has butted heads with Sun over essentially the same issue: <http://www.apache.org/jcp/sunopenletter.html>

<comment><USER15> True, but in the context of all of the recent activity in the Java world (Apple dropping Java; IBM switching from Apache Harmony to Oracle Java; Oracle suing Google), this takes on a new meaning than if you were just viewing it on its own.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Just for reference, the statement by the Apache Software Foundation board - [https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/statement_by_the_a...](https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/statement_by_the_asf_board1)

</comment><comment><USER17> Oracle owns Java and can do whatever it wishes to do with its property. Sun tried a 'open' strategy to turn a profit with Java and it failed, everyone has to understand that the old ways are out and the new ways are in. Oracle has a fiducial duty to its shareholders to maximize profit. The Apache foundation doesn't have this mandate. If the Apache foundation doesn't agree with what Oracle does with its property, it can choose not to use it and use a different technology -- or, because Oracle is a publicly traded company, they could buy enough controlling shares and force them to change their actions of the Java language. Alternatively the Apache foundation can move to a country that doesn't allow software patents and implement their own changes.

</comment><comment><USER18> What would prevent Oracle from just walking away of the JCP and releasing Java versions as they find profitable?

Can't the community just fork either OpenJDK or Harmony and get rid of Oracle altogether.

<comment><USER19> Patents, for one. Field of use restrictions for another. OpenJDK's classpath exception to the GPL does not apply to JavaME related classes, thus limiting the use of OpenJDK for all platforms.

<comment><USER20> Java's standard library is one of its worst features. A fork could just throw this crap away and it wouldn't be too far off.

But honestly, people don't use Java because they want a good programming language. They use it because they're already using Java. That will be a problem for both Java 7 and any future fork.

<comment><USER18> Maybe people use Java because they want a solid cross-platform VM

<comment><USER21> Ditto. Though I'd narrow "cross platform" to non-Microsoft. No hate for MS, but I don't see deploying Windows servers and associated licensing costs any more likely for me than buying Oracle licenses.

So yeah, as a small Ruby shop that was looking at JRuby as a stepping stone to a robust VM, this concerns me.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Equality and Opportunity - <AUTHOR> http://enthusiasm.cozy.org/archives/2012/01/equality-and-opportunity

<comment><USER2> G-Day

This quite lacking in logic. America has three times the people of the comparison nations.

How many people immigrate to America? Many, many more than those other nations.

Cheers</comment>


How Elon Musk Started - <AUTHOR> http://fundersandfounders.com/how-elon-musk-started/ <comment><USER2> Wow. This truly was a very interesting article. The story of how a man started from the ground up and became one of the greatest man right now. Thank you for the article.</comment>


Tethering - <AUTHOR> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/08/28/Tethering <comment><USER2> How can you buy an unlocked phone, though? Except for the N1 through the developer connection? I am guessing that tbray uses a N1. So do I and most other Android developers I know.

Which means we are all living in a fantasy land. We have a good experience, whereas life for the people we told to buy an Android phone will suck.

<comment><USER3> The key is "locked phones they sell for cheap". Gotta be paid for somehow.

You can buy an unlocked phone easily; I got mine at eXpansys. Be prepared for a shock if you don't know what a phone actually costs...

<comment><USER4> What you got by paying full price was a network-unlocked phone but it will still be locked when it comes to the software running inside it. Unlocking so you can run your own kernel will void the warranty.

If all you want is a root shell to the existing software, "Universal Android Root" seems to be the tool to use and won't void your warranty. It's still a hack and not something you get out of the box.

The only phone I know of that actually seems to come unlocked is the Nokia N900 where you can get a root shell out of the box and probably also swap the kernel for your own without voiding the warranty (not sure).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Easy solution for iPhone - jailbreakme.com then purchase MyWi through RockApp. For $20 you get a wifi hotspot. You just need to be careful to not go over your AT&T data plan cap.

<comment><USER6> I wonder if it's possible to write an open source hotspot app and then just deploy it to your own phone via developer signing. It's $100/year but I'd think there's a fair intersection between those who'd use a tethering app and those who are already developers and there's no risk of bricking.

<comment><USER7> Although it certainly isn't the same as MyWi, iProxy sets up a SOCKS proxy through which you can send your web traffic:

<http://wiki.github.com/tcurdt/iProxy/>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > without considerable deep-packet inspection, how can you tell that there are > other computers gatewaying

Uhm... TTL (IPv4)/hop limit (IPv6)? Not accurate but seeing TTL of 254, 127, 63, 59 or 31 means that there's quite high probability that sender is a router, not packet's originator.

<comment><USER9> Even simpler, looking at the user agent string. All the mobile networks I've used use HTTP proxies (transparent or explicit) to hugely decrease image quality; the JPEG artifacts are atrocious.

I guess the marginally harder problem would be linking together the proxy with the authentication of the connecting user, to let authorized tethering users through. Perhaps they could use a different proxy via a different APN, or similar techniques.

<comment><USER5> > Even simpler, looking at the user agent string.

This would catch a lot of false positives. For example, I use Atomic Web Browser on my iPad and iPhone - it lets me change my user agent string because some websites try to redirect you to a slimmed-down mobile version, and I might want to get to the full version of the website. So it is quite often that I actually change my user agent string to show desktop Safari instead of mobile.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Unfortunately it depends also on the hardware. The Milestone and afaik the droid are very unlikely to support the official 2.2 tethering as the Wifi chip does not support AP mode.

But you can get easily tethering on a the milestone (or many other 2.1/1.6 devices) with the adhoc mode. Root your phone (you just have to intsall one application nowadays) and install the open source wireless-ether <[http://code.google.com/p/android-wifi- tether/>](http://code.google.com/p/android-wifi-tether/>); package

<comment><USER11> USB tethering works on the Droid though. Unfortunately, using it first takes you to a Verizon signup page where they make you pay for the privilege.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why just not to pipe all the traffic through SSH proxy (-D) to avoit user agent filtering? Or do they also block connections to other ports than 80?

(Telcoms are really ripping off people in some contries. I pay 14 EUR per month for unlimited, uncapped, unfiltered 3G data for three(!) devices.)

<comment><USER13> They do not block, just shape. My mobile operator (O2) shapes everything but http, so with ssh tunnelling or ssl-based vpn, things get much slower.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Android portable hot spot feature is more or less the only thing (together with the better notifications) that is preventing me from selling my N1 in favor of an iPhone 4...

<comment><USER15> As another commenter noted, it's possible to get this functionality on iPhone if you jailbreak and purchase a tethering app. There are apps that will let you run a wifi hotspot, but I personally just spent a few bucks on an app which would allow me to use the iPhone's native tethering, which is very nice, automatic, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I really feel for the economic (and more) problems Americans and Canadians have to endure in this context just to acquire something that should be natural to every "mobile" person on the planet: easy and unhindered communication.

I really, really hope Europe won't become the same hell.

<comment><USER17> One of the problems in the UK is that it's hard to find an unlimited internet plan. Nearly all the networks place a 500MB limit, which is very easy to go over if you use tethering apps. It can end up costing an absolute fortune.

<comment><USER18> While there's no truly 'unlimited' packages, my standard data with T-Mobile is 1GB, and you can usually find packages for more if you need it.

If you're using your phone's internet a lot, it's probably better value to get a USB dongle or mifi device. You can get a 3GB/month contract from Three for £10 or £15.</comment></comment></comment>


Phone Janitor – Take control of your phone number - <AUTHOR> https://phonejanitor.com/ <comment><USER2> I think it's a stroke of genius to launch something so aesthetically terrible on HN / PH (aka the early adopter crowd).

For a group of people that see a dozen bootstrap / sandwhich vid style launches a week this stands out, and got me to read 3 paragraphs of ad-copy.

Other notable examples of this launch strategy, intentional or not, in recent memory were Pud launching DistroKid (1) and the team behind Magic (2)

I think in all of these cases the simple, functional approach serves in bringing us closer to the product vs. focusing on the pitch.

(1) [https://web.archive.org/web/20130717051607/http://distrokid....](https://web.archive.org/web/20130717051607/http://distrokid.com/)

(2) [https://getmagicnow.com/](https://getmagicnow.com/)

<comment><USER3> As honest as the text appears, I usually associate websites which look similar to this as outdated and untrustworthy. It's the type of website you often see for old freeware, which is why it doesn't seem so great to a potential user as they'll assume the website style may reflect on the service they're about to receive.

I would take a bootstrap style over this. Maybe that's just me.

<comment><USER4> Interesting. I prefer an older looking site like this. To me the feeling is that it has been created by more mature developers that would rather present all the necessary information simply, instead of muddling it with a bunch of unnecessary styles (or some inane scrolling page).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Do other people evaluate the potential lock-in before signing up for something like this? This service seems great as long as you continue to use it. My fear is that I sign up, port my number, give it out to everyone like the site suggests, and love the service only for this startup to disappear in X years. The phone number used is basically poisoned and I would either subject myself to unwanted calls after porting it elsewhere or be forced to get a new number. That always is the problem with these "run your life through us" startups, what do I do if you fail?

<comment><USER6> That's a fair reluctance and I can't take it away because at the end of the day you'll just have that lock-in with anyone. Such is the nature of telco lines. I have the same problem (having carried my home phone line through multiple stacks).

What I can say is that I can cover costs out of pocket every month indefinitely (because each user covers their telco costs of that line, I'm just covering infrastructure) and my hosting fees are easy to cover even if we have no users.

We're probably not a typical startup in that sense. We have sustainability and independence in mind. At this point the only thing investors could offer us is the ability to grow faster. An important thing, but I like giving stability its own rights, too.

<comment><USER7> This is based on twilio?

Any thoughts on going open source?

<comment><USER6> It is not based on Twilio, they're quite expensive, it's built on Freeswitch and normal fully open SIP/RTP protocols and what we're doing isn't exactly complex yet. I don't have a whole lot of care about going open source or not but as far as our interface you can view source at [https://phonejanitor.com/app/](https://phonejanitor.com/app/) and you might be pleased for the moment.

<comment><USER8> _> It is not based on Twilio, they're quite expensive, it's built on Freeswitch ... I don't have a whole lot of care about open source_

Please pardon me for saying so, but it seems like you do care about open source, or at least leveraging it to save your business money.

<comment><USER6> Oh, sorry, I poorly worded that then (and have edited it to reflect as such to prevent further confusion, but your quote stands as good reference).

You are correct that I do care about open source. I don't have much of a care about going open source for our stuff. We make our money on service, not software, but I can see the appeal. Essentially I'm just "meh" about doing it myself here.

It should be noted I love the freeswitch folks and while I'm not involved in writing the C (that takes me back), I hang out in the IRC channel and help there when able. I've looked at the code (it's hard to use binaries with FS), but never had to submit a patch as of yet. They're rock solid and deserve every support contract the get!

Go ClueCon!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> From the FAQ:

 _Why isn 't it free? So many things are free!_

 _This is a question we 're surprised to get as often as we do. The short answer is we want to run an actual stable business so people know we're profitable and can meet their needs. We don't think someone's phone number is something we would trust to anyone but a business that will be there tomorrow. We also think it's a better relationship if we're trying to sell you a service instead of provide a service to you and sell YOU as the product to advertisers. Not everyone agrees, and that's ok, but it's worked well for us throughout our careers._

We need more of this. Death to Ads!

<comment><USER10> It doesn't have to be either-or! Ads or fees can just be different points in a price structure. Pay nothing, and be the product sold to the ad syndicate. Or pay for the service, and don't view ads.

One consumers may be all "Death to ads!". But the next one might be "Gimme for free! (And I will find a way to block the ads or just live with them)."

In this situation, however, it's not obvious how the service could be supported by ads. This is a robot that works in the background and blocks calls. Whom do you show ads to pay for this? Audio ads to the callers who are rejected?

The whole idea behind this is that the end-user who subscribes to the service is not to be bothered. He or she is not aware that the system is working when it is rejecting calls. If that user has to somehow view ads to have the service, it defeats the point.

"An annoying call was blocked for you! Please view this 30 second ad in compensation!"

LOL!

Perhaps it could work like this: in the free version of the service, unwanted callers must hear an ad before they can get through to you or your voice mail. They are told this. If they listen to the ad, then they do get through.

In the premium version, you pay for the service. Unwanted callers are no longer told that they will have access after the ad plays. (The ad still plays, and they don't have access.)

Also, how about _monetizing_ access to yourself or your mailbox? What if I don't want to reject people, but make them _pay_ to talk to me? "Sorry, reaching ... Kazinator ... during these hours requires a payment of ... two ... dollars ... and ... ninety ... nine .... cents. Please enter your credit card number, followed by a pound sign, or your four-digit speed-pass payment code." :)

<comment><USER9> Yes, it does. We all collectively pay for the economic and social costs of advertising. Advertising makes nothing free for anyone: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8585237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8585237)

Maciej Ceglowski (idlewords) also calls for an "anti-free-software movement" in _Don 't Be A Free User_: [https://blog.pinboard.in/2011/12/don_t_be_a_free_user/](https://blog.pinboard.in/2011/12/don_t_be_a_free_user/)

There are better ways to screen out unwanted callers.

As Jeff Hammerbacher, fmr. Manager of Facebook Data Team, founder of Cloudera says, _" The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks."_

<comment><USER11> It's long seemed odd to me that people just accept ads. Imagine trying to explain that model to an alien familiar with the basic ideas of our economy but unfamiliar with ads as a primary revenue model:

"Well, say you want something from me, but you don't want to pay the amount I ask for it. Instead, you give a larger amount of money to a third party. The third party gives it to a fourth party, who gives it to me. I try to manipulate you into seeing the third party as more valuable, so you'll give them more money in the future. I do what you want in exchange for you putting up with this."

"Didn't it just cost me a larger amount of money that way? Because of all the intermediaries?"

"Well yes, but everyone just pretends to not know that. Oh, and this is the dominant revenue model for several large industries."

<comment><USER9> Thanks for that great analogy! I'm trying to articulate the problem in easier to follow ways. I've been wanting to depict it in the dreaded infographic.

Care to help with the words or the graphic? I'm going to start website for this. If anyone knows of a great website already focused on articulating the problem with ads, let me know. Email me!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Damn, $15/month per line? At least Tarsnap is pay-as-you-go. Seems way too expensive. TossableDigits.com (1) starts at $3.49/month per number and pay per minute, with plans that drop in price as you ramp up. Pretty much the same service without the all-in pricing. And you get unlimited SMS, Voicemail and Call Recording. They've been in business since 2006 -- staying power. (2)

They also are offering Robocall Blocking -- a huge win. (3)

(1) [https://www.tossabledigits.com/pricing.php](https://www.tossabledigits.com/pricing.php)

(2) [https://www.tossabledigits.com/aboutus.php](https://www.tossabledigits.com/aboutus.php)

(3) [https://www.tossabledigits.com/blog/introducing-robocall- blo...](https://www.tossabledigits.com/blog/introducing-robocall-block/)

</comment><comment><USER13> $15 a month. That's the number I was looking for but couldn't find until after creating an account and trying to add a phone number. Then a popup came for my credit card number (which I don't have) and finally, in the confirmation button, was the price.

Edit: Oh, it's in the FAQ. I checked all other pages except that one (seemed logical to be under either home or features, or perhaps policies). My bad.

Edit2: Giving the price a second thought, is this a normal fee in the US? Our landline costs just over 4 euros and the cheapest mobile subscription I've been able to find is 3.50 a month.

<comment><USER14> It's in the FAQ. But "Pricing" really should be a top level tab.

<comment><USER6> This is fair criticism. I'll address that. It seems to be common enough confusion for people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hmm. Good idea, but how solid is the implementation?

\- Does the voice data pass through Phone Janitor, or is this strictly at the SS7 control level?

\- Who's listening in? How do we know?

\- What's the service level guarantee?

\- Do you have telco levels of redundancy, or is this some 1U server running Asterisk?

\- Will this reduce voice quality to low-end VoIP levels? How much latency do you add? How much compression?

<comment><USER6> Excellent questions, I'll field them as best I can, if there's clarification needed just ask.

\- Voice data passes through the POTS lines to our VoIP cluster, eventually getting routed to another call channel or to a recording. Freeswitch is the node of choice here, though we're doing rather simple things with it so eventually we'll probably replace this with something more homegrown. Every vendor along those legs can listen in, just like normal POTS lines. Until people get off the POTS system, this is just going to be reality. Plans and plumbing are in place when viable to make this a strictly end-to-end pass- through fully encrypted service if you're not going over POTS. VoIP is pretty awesome stuff.

\- Any vendor servicing the lines can listen in. Unless the NSA has stopped, they're definitely processing some of it. If this is a concern, you really just don't want a phone number at all. I'd love to offer better privacy there, but it isn't in anyone's hands but users' really.

\- No SLA for the consumer product yet. We have a track record of no downtime outside our maintenance, but we've only been doing this for a few months so that's easy. That said, everything's modular and I can replace any given piece with a new virtual server in under 10 minutes from start to finish.

\- Redundancy in the web portion is there, redundancy in the database is there, redundancy in the VoIP level is sort of there, but if any node along your call chain goes down you're going to lose that call and have to start it again. This is yet another failing of voice communications in general, and not something we can do anything about.

\- POTS quality is the best we (or anyone) can do. No compression, just straight uLaw without processing so it's as clear as can be expected from a phone. You can actually see this phenomenon displayed from any cell phone currenty. Call another cell on your same network, you get pretty good quality comparatively. Call another cell on another network and depending on peering you could degrade quite a bit. Call a line connected to any copper telco and you're back at the lowest common denominator. Someday if we can get people off telephone numbers (a haughty goal, unfortunately) we can do quality limited only by your hardware on each end.

Let me know if you have more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This sounds crazy, but I'd have a small worry that giving out your CEO's personal phone number exposes potential attacks against other services that use the phone number as a token. Like:

(1) Do you have a store-loyalty program at CVS? Can I use your number when I buy stuff and get your coupons?

(2) Can I re-set your Amazon.com password using live chat with customer support by convincing them that I know your name and phone number and must therefore be you? Or can I at least have some of your recent orders declared missing and re-delivered to my house?

(3) Can I use your phone number in spoof caller ID then call an airline who auto-recognizes the incoming phone number and reveals info about the traveler's flights?

(4) Can I reorder prescriptions or learn about prescription drugs using your name and phone number?

Just some thoughts. Because a personal phone number is often not common knowledge outside of one's friends and acquaintances, third parties sometimes give it unreasonable importance.

<comment><USER6> You are very correct. =c) This is why I won't be using that line as a security number in any case (but you can have my coupons, sure, I don't mind). I have another line for that. I'm glad someone else also thought of that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've been using very similar features of Google Voice for several years and I have to say it's been _GREAT_. I can't imagine going back to a regular number.

I sincerely hope Phone Janitor can compete in that space, I'd love to see what improvements can be made and what new features may result from the differing perspectives.

<comment><USER6> I love GV, started with many years ago, but found it limiting (hence the push to Phone Janitor). Long-term plans depend on user desires, but right now you can do this on Phone Janitor, can you on GV? [http://i.imgur.com/HTnJ7FB.png](http://i.imgur.com/HTnJ7FB.png)

I would legitimately like to know if I'm missing that kind of flexibility in GV.

<comment><USER17> That sort of feature is available in GV, though I think that Phone Janitor is more flexible in the way it's structured.

<comment><USER6> I really like your having exposed me to more feature overlap there. Some things I didn't know about GV have been learned, thank you! I'm going to make some notes about things I like and improvements we might get to incorporate in further development.

<comment><USER17> Awesome! I love how you're incorporating an API into your features, so there's much more room for flexibility and personalization.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> So... Google Voice, but not free, and run by a small company that might fail, taking your phone number with them?

Might be interesting. The "not free" part is a BENEFIT in my mind, and your other post ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9943660](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9943660)) tried to address the riskiness.

<comment><USER19> better than google. which actually owns your google voice number. and the chance of google just shutting down a service they can't show text ads on is much, much higher than some company shutdown (instead of being bought by the google or facebook).

google is already dropping the ball on google voice.

the app has no updates since android 2.3. just so you understand how behind it is... the app cannot support two messages in the notification. after you get the second message, instead of the usual two lines in the notification as with SMS or any other app, you get the literal text "2 messages".

if you cave in and use hangouts for SMS, you then have to use hangouts dialer... which is a still-born app. for example, if you route your calls to your regular phone AND gtalk (i think the gvoice UI still calls hangout as gtalk) then your phone rings for both things at the same time! and you never know which one you are answering when you swipe right.

<comment><USER20> a lot of what you're saying is untrue.

1\. [https://support.google.com/voice/answer/1316844?hl=en](https://support.google.com/voice/answer/1316844?hl=en) you can port your number out of google voice.

2\. I highly doubt google voice is going anywhere with Google's commitment to mobile.

3\. The voice message app was updated last year. Yes it hasn't got the full treatment, but I assume this is because its primarily a background service. sms is done primarily through your favorite messaging app and phone calls can be made all the time through your gv number or you can choose when making a phone call.

4\. You're not forced to use dialer. GV can be set to prompt you to ask you when using dialer or just use your GV number everytime. Your last point makes no sense and is completely false. I have hangouts, google voice and route my number to my phone. Calls come in through the main dialer app.

<comment><USER21> Should reference platform. #4 is not an option for iOS, which is to say, parent comment is correct. GV on iOS is laughably bad from a UX standpoint.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Can it block unknown callers?

The FCC doesn't allow phone companies to do that directly. It drives me nuts -- it's _always_ spam callers.

[http://www.t-mobile.com/company/privacyresources.aspx?tp=Abt...](http://www.t-mobile.com/company/privacyresources.aspx?tp=Abt_Tab_Blocking)

> the FCC has mandated that carriers allow callers the ability to block their > Caller ID information and thus place "anonymous" calls. T-Mobile is > obligated to honor the privacy of the caller in these circumstances. Of > course, you may choose not to accept such calls. But we cannot block the > call or override the privacy choice of the caller.

Thanks, FCC. Maybe this is a fix? If so, sign me up!

<comment><USER6> We're not a phone company, and we don't block them for you, we give you the tool to block it yourself, so yes. Yes it is a fix, just as much as any other app you could use to do such. For instance, my number (on that front page) is a whitelist thing. That would cover anonymous calls. If you want to specifically target anonymous, we can't do that (because it's not actually definable in telecom terms, as they each in practice represent such differently). They would, however, always fit in the "other" category.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Other commenters have touched on this as well, but I'd be really interested in seeing a breakdown comparison between this and GV. Clearly they're different, but I'd be interested in explicitly seeing what PJ is _not_. Really cool idea, though. Not sure I need it right now, but bookmarked.

On a superficial note, the website looks like it was thrown together in minutes, and I think it's actually really refreshing. It honestly grabbed my attention more than a bootstrap site with a full window background image and a snarky tagline overlaid. No cheesy stock photos and disruption talk, just paragraph tags and bullet points. Kudos.

<comment><USER6> Thank you! I think we might be too far to the simplicity but we can err on that side for the moment and think about going closer to aesthetics people like as we go. We're devs and businessmen, not designers, but we have designer friends that have given us some great feedback (not to mention the public feedback) and I think always improving is a good roadmap to have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> It's unfortunate that SMS isn't supported—that's practically the only reason I still have a phone, and the entire reason I'd want this service is to block all calls, excepting the ones I've specifically authorized.

<comment><USER6> Oh how I want that support. Our trunk providers at the moment say they've got it coming and then we just turn it on after testing it, but until then we're at their mercy. Don't forget MMS in there, too. That's a huge gotcha for some systems.

Someday we'll all be allowed to have nice things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> [https://ring.to](https://ring.to) has very similar features (for free) and is run by Bandwidth.com (been in telco for YEARS). You can even get a free number through GrooVeIP to use with RingTo [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.snrblabs.g...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.snrblabs.grooveip)

</comment><comment><USER26> This seems like a cool service, but you may want to think about a site redesign. The bare bones look may appeal to the Hacker News crowd, but most people may hesitate to port their number over to a company with a site that looks so dated, which in turn makes you look less legitimate/professional.

<comment><USER6> I agree. We were doing a soft launch to convert some beta customers to actual customers and get feedback, and the site was on the agenda for this upcoming week before announcing it. Then cue one of those customers posting to HN and now we're kind of exploding a bit more.

Thanks for the added data point, you are heard loud and clear and we will do our best (we're not designers, we can't be good at everything)

Cheers!

<comment><USER26> Thanks for taking the criticism so well! If you're looking for an easy solution where you don't have to worry about design but still want a nice, modern site, I'd recommend looking into purchasing a Bootstrap or Wordpress theme that you can just plug your content into.

Good luck with your business!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> _We also conform to law enforcement inquiries only where legally required, and with notification to the account owner of any and all inquiries legally allowed._

This is precise wording! Sort of refreshing; I can't recall seeing anything like this from my mobile provider.

 _We do not delete call records actively, and we keep history of where a number has been provisioned. We do this for support and analytics purposes as a matter of good record keeping. This is not likely to change._

You must not have many customers yet if you don't have a schedule for deleting CDRs. Surely this will happen at some point? I guess $15/m pays for some storage... Anyway the moralistic "matter of good record keeping" is a bit of a turn-off. Deleting unnecessary data is a kindness to one's customers.

<comment><USER6> We don't keep much data around for a CDR, just who called, what time, and what happened to it. Even my number hasn't generated more than 1K of data thus far. I don't see that being a big problem for 10 years of someone's line data.

We can change the wording on that, but there is a requirement for when a number is active or not and who it is attached to, and there's some significant liability if we can't say where a number was supposed to be going at some point in the past. We want to acknowledge that requirement so everybody knows what's happening and why. I understand completely if that's a turn off, but do realize that anyone who has a phone number has such records kept around for several years. My approach is that telco stuff is not something I want to be unprofessional about, and I don't want to hide that either.

Knowing that philosophy, I'm open to suggestions for restating that particular phrase. I suppose it's also worth expanding what "provisioned" means here (specifically it means we put a line on an account with this ID at this time, not a function of identifying WHO owns a number at a time).

You might also note that we don't ask who you are. We don't care. Stripe (payment processor) does, but our system honestly has no idea. If that changes, so will our policies to reflect exactly that, and why.

<comment><USER27> Thanks for your detailed reply. Can we agree that there is a difference between CDRs and provisioning info? No one will complain that you are obeying the law with respect to the latter, but "never" is a strange call record deletion policy. Not even an ILEC would try that. A policy this strange will cost you customers, especially since anyone trying this service is much more likely to think about privacy issues.

<comment><USER6> That's a fair perspective and I will give some sincere thought to the prospect. Striking a balance is important to us as a team, so I can't say I will cater to everything you wish, which I'm sure you understand easily enough, but I do wish to treat it with the weight it deserves when you're being very reasonable about explaining your position. Cheers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> If you're into this kind of thing, I've used anveo.com before which has a pretty powerful call flow engine that can be programmed via a nice drag-and- drop web ui. I found it similar to Yahoo Pipes but you're dealing with phone calls instead of web data.

<comment><USER29> Mentioned the same thing in a different comment. Love Anveo (screenshot here: [http://i.imgur.com/54aJqGn.png](http://i.imgur.com/54aJqGn.png))

Would like to see a screenshot of this app...it looks like you have to sign up and pay to see the interface.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Fantastic idea, but they should be clearer about what happens if someone sends you a text message. It seems from the FAQ that maybe you wouldn't get it? If I ported my number over, and didn't get texts anymore, I'd be pretty sadface about it.

</comment><comment><USER31> They don't readily advertise it, but the cost appears to be $15 per month (per number ?).

<comment><USER32> [https://phonejanitor.com/faq.html#general- price](https://phonejanitor.com/faq.html#general-price)

"We charge a simple $15 per line per month. No hidden fees, no hidden limits. Even our Terms are written to be human readable."

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Anyone who is considering porting their current mobile phone number to your service should be aware that most mobile carriers will cancel their account if you port your number away from them.

If you have a contract, you will then be billed the early termination fee.

<comment><USER6> This is mentioned in the faq about porting numbers, but we also address it when someone requests a port so they don't have a bad experience (this is why it's currently a support request rather than a UI capability, until we've got that workflow working for the customer's overall experience). We haven't had any mobile lines cancelled yet, but we've only worked with tmobile, sprint, and AT&T so far. It's usually best if you work with your carrier at the same time and we can provide some advice on that for those that request a port.

This might be more prominently featured as we go forward.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> What about calling out? I know with GV you can dial your GV number to dial the number you actually want to call (So the recipient sees your GV number in their caller ID). It was a little cumbersome, but it worked. Does PJ have something like this?

<comment><USER6> Good question. I think eventually it's a given probably using your data connection or any SIP phone or soft phones we might provide, but not yet, no.

We're not sure of the value add here and it's a lot more work to get happening (and expense of development). If there's user demand we'll obviously do it, but so far feedback has been requests for SMS and MMS support (we're ready when our providers are, which they say should be later this year, or we'll move providers to providers that are).

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> _Route calls from a specific person or group to your cell, and others to someone else, or to voicemail, or just drop them completely._

Nice start.

Now send all those unwanted calls and texts to email and let it handle them. Then you'd really have something there.

</comment><comment><USER36> What's the UI/UX like? Screenshots / video / explanations of mobile, Web, phone, voice, etc., interactions would be useful.

This is very much the sort of thing I'd love but:

1\. How do I add/remove numbers especially when _not_ at a full desktop, etc?

2\. How do I _bulk_ add/remove numbers? Being able to download/upload lists would be a plus.

4\. Data retention generally. Both in terms of my being able to export it, and on your retaining data. I really _don 't_ need YAN metadata store of my call history. Not for any longer than it takes to transact basic functionality.

</comment><comment><USER37> I don't see how exactly it is different from Google Voice, other than requiring 15$/mo (x12 is 180 USD per annum!) for seemingly the same service (except GV also has SMS support, as well as Voice-to-Text and many other useful features like automatic crowdsourced spam blocking).

Heck, even doing PAYG with the unlocked SIP providers like Anveo and would seemingly provide the same feature set, at a lower price.

HECK, THEY DON'T EVEN SUPPORT SMS! Seriously, they aren't even in the same league as Google Voice or Anveo! Next!

<comment><USER36> Well, it's not Google, for one.

That company already knows far too much about me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Are there screenshots of the interface somewhere? I don't see any, and it's not clear if signing up without paying would let you see the interface.

Today, I use Anveo.com for this sort of thing. It also suffers from a relatively stodgy web presence, but the call flow builder, used to route incoming calls, is pretty much a full fledged IVR...really nice. Screenshot here: [http://i.imgur.com/54aJqGn.png](http://i.imgur.com/54aJqGn.png)

</comment><comment><USER38> Don't some VOIP services offer slightly less powerful versions of this? The one I used to use (Primus Canada) allowed me to set call treatments (with a limit of 50, but that was plenty for me). Some of the options included send to voicemail, forward, hang up, etc. and offered some time-of-day rules too.

It's the one big feature I miss after switching to Ooma. All I want is to direct anyone not in my contacts to voicemail by default, and add exceptions, and I can't do that. :(

</comment><comment><USER39> Is it safe to presume that the service is restricted to the US?

<comment><USER6> And Canada!

<comment><USER40> All of NANPA I assume

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Remember the lady in texas who committed suicide? Those friends she tried to contact but couldn't reach feel horrible about missing her call.

The problem with a service like this is that it will block calls from friends and family who are not whitelisted. Not to mention those dreaded emergency calls made by family members using a borrowed phone or public phone.

<comment><USER42> You should [pretty much] never blame yourself for somebody committing suicide.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Line2 (www.line2.com) has decent inbound call screening capabilities similar to Phone Janitor, plus lots more for the same $14.95/month: Outbound calling from your private number, auto-attendant, unlimited SMS, and apps for Android and iOS win WiFi calling so you don't burn minutes. Seems like that would be your real competition.

</comment><comment><USER44> Looks cool.

I've found that asynchronous voice chat programs (WeChat got huge in China, then the West got WhatsApp, Nextel etc) make for much easier voice communication. There's zero overhead of waiting for a ring & voicemail message and a beep -- just press a button & speak.

I'd love to see this integrate with phone lines but I doubt the feasibility.

<comment><USER45> I hate receiving voice messages. Sure, it's quick for the sender, but it's inconvenient for me. Reading a messages is better than listening because:

1) I can easily re-read a couple of words I didn't parse properly the first time, or which are details (like addresses).

2) I can read pretty much anywhere, without disturbing anyone around me.

3) I can read much faster than I can listen.

Thankfully, only a couple of my WeChat friends think sending voice messages is a good idea.

<comment><USER44> Personally I've found voice messages incredibly useful during transit (texting & driving isn't safe, and riding a bus bouncing over potholes is difficult to type.

WeChat supports address sharing which integrates to mapping, which works well. It support regular text messages to, and voice calls -- so your options are covered.

<comment><USER45> I'm not dissing the function. I'm amazed at how well WeChat's various functions (address sharing, video/voice calling, money transfer, ...) work. I just don't find voice messages useful for me as the recipient. The people who have sent me voice messages don't own cars so they have no excuse!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> To me it simply seems to destroy half the value of having a phone number.

My Bank's fraud prevention team try to call me about an unauthorised transaction? Nope.

My doctor calls me on an unlisted line? No.

My daughter's phone runs out of battery and she calls from a friend's phone to say she is going to be late?

I ask a friend to get a friend of theirs to call me about something? No.

Hopeless.

</comment><comment><USER47> Really, what I want is the ability to shunt unknown callers off to a holding area where they have to listen to a message and press a button in order to be let through. If it's a legitimate caller, then the inconvenience is minor.

Most phone spammers wouldn't get through.

<comment><USER48> This works very well in my experience. I wrote a "captcha/graylist-esque" rule for my asterisk server which intercepts unknown incoming calls with "because we don't recognize your phone number, please press one now -- or leave a message after the tone". Pressing one transfers the call to the ring group and whitelists the caller id.

For grins, _failing_ to press one results in my office speakerphone playing "sad-trombone-sound.wav" \-- how I love to hear that sound.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> There's a fair bit of lockin here, but ~no technical information on the website (which is also pretty sparse).

Is it just "we'll run a PBX and backhaul your calls to you over SIP to a client on your phone?" Is it an MVNO? Is it forwarding between PSTN?

</comment><comment><USER10> Bizarre name. People who screen calls and control access to other people are receptionists or secretaries, not janitors.

When was the last time a _janitor_ told you that Mr. Smith isn't taking any calls right now?

<comment><USER50> I thought the same thing. I assumed it was an app for dealing with clutter on your phone. I'm sure they have their reasons for naming the product as such, but I think 'Butler' or 'Secretary' or something that implies your inability to contact someone directly would have been better.

<comment><USER10> If those are taken, then there are synonyms like sentry, sentinel, guard, guardian, watchman, protector, monitor, screener, defender, shield, chaperone, paladin, vigilante, ...

How did they end up with "janitor". I'm looking at thesaurus.com and it doesn't list "janitor" as a synonym for any word that denotes a protector of something.

There is "custodian"; sometimes building janitors are called custodians, but that word has connotations of taking care of something (having it in your custody).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Congrats on launching! Can you call out from a phone janitor number as well? It sounds great, but if I return a call then they have my real, unfiltered number.

</comment><comment><USER52> Serious question - how does this compare to Google Voice? As described, their main feature is something that GV has had since it was GrandCentral.

</comment><comment><USER53> I like the control. I wouldn't use it.

Why? The CEO of PhoneJanitor is no longer reachable by a bunch of people in ways that I find useful. The associated at the VC firm that wants to follow up on funding this company? Denied. The CVS courtesy number reminding him his prescription is ready for pickup? Never gets through. His wife borrows a friends phone after hers dies? Can't even leave a voicemail.

It's one way to deal with spam and cold calls, but there's a real cost to these limits.

<comment><USER54> Presumably you can always just give important people your "real" number like you already do.

<comment><USER55> Tried that but it doesn't always work. The important people in your life may not know or remember that they've been given your _real_ number, and they end up passing your number along to the next degre of people who you may not want to have your _real_ number...and of course you have to juggle one more number (not unlike most of us who juggle more than one email for work, personal, side project, or side business, etc.).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> How does this differ from Google Voice?

<comment><USER6> A fair question. =c)

I can't really answer that exhaustively, as I am not intimately familiar with all of GV. Phone Janitor does have some things I couldn't find in one package elsewhere that I wanted for managing my own stuff (some of which might be doable in GV? I'm not totally sure), and these include:

\- Being able to route based on group, contact, time of day, day of week and to any phone number I want all in a single rule

\- Linking my voicemails to family and friends without having to go through some authentication stuff I never saw a reason for (there's a story to this one actually, and I'll happily tell it to anyone interested)

\- Not having to call anyone to access my voicemails

\- Being actively developed on (this space seems rather stagnant to me from big tech. I have some tools options as a developer, but my parents can't really take advantage of any of that)

\- Something I can integrate into other things I care about through some sort of API or export format or something (we chose the API route).

\- Support. I don't need 24/7 instantaneous phone support (and don't want it, ideally) but somebody in the case of a huge issue should be contactable, fairly easily.

Even Phone Janitor isn't everything I want it to be (yet), but we've found customers find it incredibly useful, and we've had some good feedback for features that others will also find useful but still stick to our core goals (so ads probably won't be supported any time soon). Some of the feedback has been here today as you can see. I'm pleased with the criticism and praise we've received here, and I'm hoping to incorporate some of it into some progress in the near future.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Does this work with spoofed caller IDs?

</comment><comment><USER58> 801? Are you guys still in Utah?

<comment><USER6> We are. Neither of us grew up here, but the tech is great and the cost of living is fantastic comparatively. So we can be much more lean.

<comment><USER58> We should meet up. Email me

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> If they control your number, could they not listen to all your calls, if they so wanted?

<comment><USER29> Is there a service provider for which that isn't true?

<comment><USER6> There is not, especially where POTS is concerned. If you want private calls, you don't want old POTS interactivity at all (and there are services for this). If you don't involve POTS at all, this become easy to achieve.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> sounds like google voice?

</comment><comment><USER61> Why this over Twilio? As far as I can tell, this does what Twilio does, but they're much bigger and more established.

With my setup, inbound business calls get routed to the right person during the day, an automated message if we can't pick up at the moment, and a different message outside of business hours. Outbound calls from our personal numbers get forwarded through the business number our numbers aren't exposed.

It all takes less than 70 lines of Python/Flask.

<comment><USER62> >It all takes less than 70 lines of Python/Flask.

It's for people who can't write those 70 lines/don't know about Twilio/associate Python with an animal.

<comment><USER58> Or for those who know how to write python but don't have time to write a program for every problem they've ever encountered.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> The new STEEL CRADLE protective cup will protect your most important part like it's a state secret. But don't just take our word for it - try for yourself! Our CEO, proudly joining other CEOs in putting all their trust in their company's product, is wearing a STEEL CRADLE all day long and he's walking the streets of San Francisco from 8am to 8pm, inviting you to kick him straight in the family jewels.

Wear steel-capped boots! Use a hammer! Catch him while he's least expecting it! Our CEO knows that STEEL CRADLE will give him all the protection he needs.</comment>


A years-old, one-letter typo led to Aliens: Colonial Marines' weird AI - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/a-years-old-one-letter-typo-led-to-aliens-colonial-marines-awful-ai/ <comment><USER2> Even with the huge number of other issues plaguing that game, it's staggering to imagine the amount of dollars that they lost specifically because of that single "a" keystroke.</comment>


Hand powered drilling tools and machines - <AUTHOR> http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/12/hand-powered-drilling-tools-and-machines.html <comment><USER2> It's worth noting that the photograph halfway down the page of the man using a hand drill, which appears like it may have been taken quite recently, was actually taken _75 years ago_ , in _1942_ :

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PalmercarpenterA.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PalmercarpenterA.jpg)

<comment><USER3> Wow, totally shocked by that. It's so clear and bright. The staging looks so "modern advertisement" like.

<comment><USER4> The photographer, Alfred T. Palmer, made an entire series of this type of color portraiture. They are well worth a look.

[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alfred_T._Palmer](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Alfred_T._Palmer)

<comment><USER5> You're not kidding. It looks reminiscent of '60's early 70's work. Early Meyerowitz[1] for example. Coincidentally, in the street photography genre, somewhat hot is what is called "staged photography"[2]. Although some staged photography attempts to capture candid moments found between the staged photos.

[1][https://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2017/05/22/t-magazine/joel...](https://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2017/05/22/t-magazine/joel- meyerowitz-towards-colour-1962-1978/s/22tmag-joel-slide-OPAV.html)

[2][http://www.americansuburbx.com/tag/staged- photography](http://www.americansuburbx.com/tag/staged-photography)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> One device not specifically mentioned by the article is my personal favorite, the "Cole Drill", named after Cole Manufacturing which seems to have originated the concept. Google for image, but its basically a portable, manual drill-press with a ratcheting mechanism. I was unaware of their existence until sometime last year, but it has become one of my favorite tools. I had always desired some kind of small drill-press for doing random wood/metal/pcb work, and the Cole Drill fits the bill perfectly. It is also unique in that the feed is advanced with a threaded sleeve which makes it possible to exert upwards of 1000 lbs. on the bit, making it ideal for drilling hard materials. I've yet to come across a standard motorized press that could do this. Yes, its slow compared to a power feed, but i can't store a Delta under the sink in my tiny ass apartment either.

</comment><comment><USER7> Another really cool style of hand drill, which this article completely missed, is the Yankee Drill [0]. (More generically called a Push Drill.) A spade-like drill bit cuts when turned either direction. The handle has a screw mechanism and spring so that you can push the handle down into the work to turn the bit one way, and lift the handle back up to turn it the other way. The up-down motion is easy to get a hold of and very fast to do. It's _amazing_ for drilling pilot holes and for putting holes in walls that are right next to furniture or cabinets - the diameter of the entire tool is only 1.25 or 1.5 inches. The handle stores a variety of bits inside.

[0] [https://www.garrettwade.com/garrett-wade-yankee-push- drill-g...](https://www.garrettwade.com/garrett-wade-yankee-push-drill- gp.html)

<comment><USER8> Miniature version of this drill is called pin vise and is used widely by modelmakers and jewelers.

<comment><USER9> They look similar though so I can understand the confusion but they are different - one is drill and the other is just a holding tool. The end of the Yankee push drill rotates when you push or pull the handle. A pin vise just has a chuck, similar to a drill chuck, but no mechanism to rotate the held piece.

<comment><USER8> I personally have pin vise with twisted shaft and sliding collet like this one [http://alexnld.com/product/mini-pin-vise-wood-spiral-semi- au...](http://alexnld.com/product/mini-pin-vise-wood-spiral-semi-automatic- hand-drill-with-chuck-for-jewelry-tool-micro-twist-bit/).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This reminds me of a sheep shearing demonstration I saw a while ago. The shearer first cut off a third of the sheep's wool with old fashioned scissors. Then he pulled out some pre electrical device that was powered by an audience volunteer at a lever/pump. This rapidly cut through the next third of the sheep wool. The final third he took off with modern electrical shears, barely faster than the previous gadget (though, notably, only requiring a single human to do the job).

Sometimes you forget just how ingenious and _good_ pre electrical tools could be.

<comment><USER11> Had a similar experience with a manual earth t-auger. Really quite fast, easy, a pleasure to use, when I wasn't hitting rocks. (but gas earth augers have the same problem)

And, my crosscut saw goes through wood much faster than my shoddy circular saw (which admittedly needs a new blade)

I've come to think that while power tools have clear advantages for professionals where volume is large and time is money, we've done ourselves a disservice abandoning simple manual tools for the average bloke. They can be _nearly_ as fast, they cost much less, and they require virtually no maintenance in comparison.

<comment><USER12> Circular saws with blunt blades are downright dangerous please be very careful with that thing and fix that blade. The saw now requires a lot more force to work and can get jammed in the hole far easier because it doesn't really cut wide enough. The momentum in the blade can then cause the whole saw to jump out and that's really scary.

<comment><USER11> All the more reason for me to use my crosscut then. We'll certainly replace the blade on the circular though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's really sad that auger bits for braces aren't manufactured any more as far as I can tell. There are places that sell new old stock, and there are Irwin bits available but only in sets worth $500 (not sure if new or old stock). You might have to pay $30 for a single bit.

I bought a bunch of random sized new old stock and I was lucky to obtain some untouched bits when I bought a dead man's tool chest a while back.

I do woodworking exclusively with hand tools and the brace and bit is just a great tool. It's much nicer than hassling with power drills or trying to wrestle the work piece on the drill press. A cordless drill can get holes drilled just fine (although there's a risk of tearout on the opposite side) but for removing waste from mortises or other joinery a cordless drill is useless because you don't have a reliable depth stop.

I also have an egg beater -style drill but unfortunately the chuck is broken. I won't bother buying a new one because I'll almost certainly get one when buying a set of old tools from someone in an online auction.

Some old hand tools are much nicer to work with than their modern counterparts. It's not usually even much slower unless you're doing some mass manufacturing operation with a thousand similar holes or sawcuts. I could never afford a full shop of power tools or the space to put them in but I'm able to do almost anything with hand tools at a fraction of the money and space required.

<comment><USER14> I seem to be wandering into tool making currently. What hand tools are you most missing that are not produced anymore?

EDIT: Just noticed your other comment. I'm located in Finland too. I've had huge trouble finding hand drill with three jack chuck. I'm seriously considering making a small run of completely new ones.

<comment><USER13> Are you interested in tool making professionally or as a hobby? Or a small side business?

I'm short of a chuck for an egg beater hand drill so if you intend to produce some, I'm interested.

If professionally, I suggest thinking about cloning old fashioned auger bits because I'm pretty sure you could sell them in batches big enough to be commercially viable.

If as a hobby - well do whatever you need.

There are quite a few hand tool manufacturers appearing in the past few decades and business seems to be booming. There are new premium tools that sell for a nice price.

A problem for commerically viable production is that there are so many old hand tools out there, hiding in sheds and shacks, on antiques stores, kept as decorative items, flea markets that the supply will last for at least a century before there's going to be a shortage.

I personally need a router plane and/or a plough plane. There are new premium ones available at $150-$200, but I'm hesitant pay that because I know I'll run across an old Stanley 71 sooner or later.

Leave your contact information if you want to geek out about tools & crafts.

<comment><USER14> Sorry I'm late to the party.

My idea was to make hand tools with a twist of some sort. As a small side business at first, but maybe get bigger over time. Currently I'm working on bit different type of pruning shears. I'd like to make "tactical" brace drill aimed for off-road enthusiasts and military personnel.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The hand drills have a couple of non-obvious advantages over a normal electric drill.

First, since they're usually slower, it's harder to really screw up and drill a blind hole too deep. As an added bonus, if you mark your depth with tape, it's a lot harder to accidentally push the tape up the bit, and subsequently drill too deep.

Second, I find it much easier to drill a hole perpendicular to the surface I'm drilling in because the handle is in line with the axis of the hole. I find it much harder to do that reliably with an electric drill.

Third, if you pull off the side handle (chef's cap), you can drill quite close to a wall (but not a corner). The handle isn't appreciably larger in diameter than the chuck, so you can drill straight in much closer (6-12mm) than you can with most electric drills.

Fourth, the old ones are beautifully made, and will last forever[0].

Those are on top of the obvious advantage that they need neither a cord nor batteries.

The downsides:

It's harder to get the bit back out; you can't just gun it and pull back like you can with an electric drill. Also, you can't crank in reverse. That usually just loosens the chuck.

You can't really maintain the speed you need to get a clean hole with a brad- point bit. Or maybe that just comes with practice? I haven't managed it yet.

The single speed ones are pretty well done for by the time you hit a 1/4"/6mm bit, especially with a smaller drill.

I have a Miller's Falls #5, and a Goodell-Pratt 5 1/2 [1]. The Goodell-Pratt has a low gear that really ups the capacity to drill larger diameter holes in hardwood.

The Miller's Falls #5 has a double pinion, which I prefer to the single pinion on the Goodell-Pratt. The gearbox on the Goodell-Pratt is also slightly fussy, but it does have a ball bearing thrust bearing.

[0] Can't resist, here's one of mine: [https://www.instagram.com/p/BSkaD6iA1BP/?taken- by=teaandsawd...](https://www.instagram.com/p/BSkaD6iA1BP/?taken- by=teaandsawdust) [1] [http://oldtoolheaven.com/hand_drills/drill3.htm](http://oldtoolheaven.com/hand_drills/drill3.htm)

<comment><USER16> Don't forget that an electric drill is insulated. So if you hit mains electricity (like I did last week) you just get a loud bang and a scare.

<comment><USER14> I know few guys who have gotten through 400v main with an excavator and just loud bang and scare. Those excavators are not insulated in any way, but the cockpit does make Faraday cage. I think they usually continue working after booting every on board computer and getting a new bucket.

The amount of insulation you need is minimal as the excavator blade/drill bit will work as conductor and most of the current then just follows the path it normally would. The flash and bang come from the short period of time when there is small air gap between the electric line and the tool being used and then that gap gets welded shut really fast.

The amount of insulation you need might well be reached with just wooden handles on the drill. Or wearing rubber sole shoes.

<comment><USER12> I would not take that chance. 400 V to 600 V is the real danger zone in electricity, high enough to do serious damage in a short time, low enough not to arc until it is much too late. Added to that that you're going to be sweaty and that soil conditions might give you good conductance that's an easy way to die.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I was told a story by a Canadian Forces mechanic about how he used a hand drill to do some underwater repairs on a float plane pontoon while in a remote area up North.

I'm not sure if hand powered tools are part of a standard repair kit for the Canadian military or if he was just being extra cautious in including some in his kit, but one can see how they could be useful when working in remote areas without power.

<comment><USER18> Hand tools are light, reliable, do not require external power and consume little space which make them better suited to remote environments than power tools.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> So, after all that hand powered stuff, here is a story about the Whole Hawg (and Unix) by Neal Stephenson:

[http://www.team.net/mjb/hawg.html](http://www.team.net/mjb/hawg.html)

</comment><comment><USER19> Fiskars makes a hand drill. I bought one on the spur of the moment when I thought I'd be helping a friend's kid with a "build your own toy" project. That didn't happen, and I haven't actually tried it, yet.

Happy with most of their other stuff, though (trimming tools, hand saw, ...). I should have a look for it -- somewhere around here.

<comment><USER13> Sadly, Fiskars is one of those declining companies that are taking part in a race to the bottom with price and quality. Being from Finland (where Fiskars is from), it's often the default go-to brand for gardening equipment and similar. I bought a shovel that bent before I got any dirt moved with it. Recently I saw them sell products with "quick change" handles, selling expensive changeable handles to a product (some gardening tool) that should either come with a handle that lasts or an easy to replace wooden handle. Planned obsolescence and after market ripoff all the way.

Their scissors are great. Axes are alright. Although the problem with both is the gray, stainless steel they're made of (I jokingly call it "Fiskarsium"). It stays sharp-ish quite well but is really difficult to sharpen to razor sharp.

Old fashioned carbon steel would be much easier to sharpen but it rusts (if not oiled) and doesn't stay sharp as long. Perhaps it's just that modern tools are expected to do a mediocre job despite years of neglect.

Maybe I'm old fashioned when I am willing to do a few minutes of maintenance in order to get a tool that works well.

Fwiw. I bought a Swedish-made Hultafors axe with hand forged carbon steel blade and a wooden handle. You need to sharpen it regularly, oil it after use and might have to change the handle after a few years but boy does it chop wood. The downside is that I've had to explain to several people why I bought a Swedish axe and not a Fiskars.

<comment><USER19> I have a small, child's/sewing type Fiskars scissors from a number of years ago. Made in U.S.A. -- even then, they'd grown beyond Finland. It's held up quite well.

But I needed a larger model; the "generic" office scissors I had in that size didn't take long to become fairly useless. I happened across a Fiskars model while shopping for other stuff. It even has a non-stick coating -- might be useful when cutting tape, something that's been gumming up the generic. I took a chance and bought it. We'll see, but on the package: Made in China.

P.S. It's just been my observation with numerous brands and products, that when manufacture has moved to China, quality has declined.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A video of the guy behind Primitive Technology channel on YT making a pump drill: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEl-Y1NvBVI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEl-Y1NvBVI)

</comment><comment><USER21> If you enjoyed this, you must watch the PBS documentary about Dick Proenneke, who built an amazing cabin in the Alaskan bush using hand tools, many of which he completed on-site.

He was alone out there and shot the footage himself, Les Stroud-style, decades before Les made his first episode of Survivorman:

[http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHhsu- Vn6jZpBMVJ5Wnciz...](http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHhsu- Vn6jZpBMVJ5Wncizf0wrCw1C0-V)

</comment><comment><USER18> Hand drills are great for when you need to drill pilot holes to install stuff in your dorm room or cheap apartment.

Drilling through metal is where they really fall flat on their face. It's hard to keep a reasonable feed rate if the tool isn't in great condition or the work it not positioned conveniently.

Accuracy also isn't that great, especially where a lot of pressure (metal) is needed or in awkward positions and that's with a power drill. A hand drill that you have to power would be even worse.

<comment><USER14> Agreed. But my experience with drilling metal with handheld power drill was so unsatisfying that I'd be glad to have an excuse to never try it again.

<comment><USER22> Metal fabrication is my day job...

To drill mild steel (regular old steel, containing 0.05–0.25% carbon, used for most things you see made of steel, like structural steel and most car body components) you need to use high-speed steel[1] drill bits, and they need to be sharp. With the correct speed and feed rate drilling mild steel with a power drill is quite doable, up to about 12mm diameter hole in 12mm thick plate.

Regular stainless steels, 304 and 316 grades, are drilled with the same drill bits but slower, lower feed rates, and with constant cooling using a cutting fluid.

I've seen people try to drill steel with drill bits intended for timber, or blunt drill bits, this isn't going to work.

YouTube has good videos of how to sharpen drill bits. Worth learning, but mostly impractical on anything below about 3mm diameter (1/8th inch).

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High- speed_steel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_steel)

<comment><USER18> Pretty much all off consumer tooling is HSS. People just use way too much speed and cook them. It doesn't help that most aren't too sharp to begin with. Ever since I bought a drill bit sharpener (faster for the same quality as doing it by hand on a grinder) I've been using my hss tooling more.

For steel that just needs a hole and will be drilled with a hand (power) drill I've found that masonry bits are king. A small pilot keeps them from walking and the carbide tips hold an edge very well. For truck frame rivets in accessible locations it's faster and cleaner than a torch. The straight cutting edges are also very easy to grind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I have recently bought a brace type hand drill and I prefer it over my cordless drill. It is great not only for drilling, I also use it to drive all types of screws since it will accept any bit the powered version would. It provides more torque than a screwdriver and is more pleasant to operate than a socket wrench.

<comment><USER24> > It provides more torque than a screwdriver and is more pleasant to operate > than a socket wrench.

Look up what a "speed wrench" is - it's basically a brace-type socket wrench, designed for working with sockets. Usually used for automotive repair work, but I imagine that anything with a bolt/nut could be attacked with it, provided there's clearance of course...

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> There are some heavy-duty hand drills on Alibaba.[1] It's not a dead technology.

[1] [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Double-Pinion-Two- Spe...](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Double-Pinion-Two-Speeds-Cast- Iron_60239913712.html)

<comment><USER2> $9.90 each when you buy a case of 500? That's amazingly cheap.

Amusingly enough, the brand name has been conspicuously censored in all the images, but I can make out the German(!?) text "2-Gang Handbohrmaschine" and a website "westfalia.de" \--- which makes me wonder if they're making fakes of [https://www.westfalia.de/shops/werkzeug/handwerkzeuge/bohren...](https://www.westfalia.de/shops/werkzeug/handwerkzeuge/bohren/handbohrer/631457-westfalia- handbohrmaschine-2-gang-1-10-mm-schnellspannbohrfutter.htm) (which sell for almost 3x as much) or are actually the OEM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Lowtechmagazine.com is a site worth reading article after article.

</comment><comment><USER27> I would love to see a full series of steps to boot strap from nothing through all the improving tools required to build a high quality lathe.

So many disciplines need to come together.

</comment><comment><USER28> If you're interested in seeing someone make these take a look at this Primitive Technology video and the others he produces:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEl-Y1NvBVI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEl-Y1NvBVI)

Make sure you turn on captions to see descriptions of what's going on.

</comment><comment><USER29> Another hand-powered drilling tool not mentioned here is the pin vise, which works by means of a collar sliding up and down a spiraled shaft. They are used for drilling small, precise holes, using drill bits that would be easily broken by the greater torque of a power drill.

<comment><USER30> Are you sure that's called a pin vise? I thought a pin vise was just a collet on a handle. (I.e. think a drill which made a baby with a screwdriver.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Ah, yes, included the Millers Falls two-handed drill we have for timber frame mortising. (Haven't done much lately.)

Great tool, though admittedly much slower than electric chain morticers. But certainly more meditative...

</comment><comment><USER32> > Silent, safe, flexible, forgiving

should read "Silent, safe, _slow_ , flexible, forgiving, _frustrating_ "</comment>


Wikileaks defectors to launch Openleaks alternative - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11981301

<comment><USER2> "Unlike Wikileaks, Openleaks will not publish or verify material; leaving that role to newspapers"

What's the point then? If the leaks aren't verified, then they are just rumors.</comment>


3-D Printing Saves a Frank Lloyd Wright Treasure - <AUTHOR> http://www.metropolismag.com/Point-of-View/September-2014/3-D-Printing-Saves-a-Frank-Lloyd-Wright-Treasure/ <comment><USER2> Florida Southern represents the largest collection of Frank Lloyd Wright's work in one place. It's worth an hour's drive if you're in Orlando and sick of the rat and other theme parks.

Because of the politics surrounding Wright's legacy and Florida Southern having different interests [ such as running a University ], than the main group preserving his work, the buildings in Lakeland rarely appear in books about him. Rumor is that including Florida Southern meant limited or no access to the bulk of the archives.

But they are spectacular and wholly superior to the most well known commercial buildings of Wright's later career, the Guggenheim. The Florida Southern buildings, including the library are oriented around people not contents.

[ Note: Florida Southern University is a private church affiliated school in Lakeland. It should not be confused with University of South Florida, a massive public university, down the road in Tampa ]</comment>


U.N. Admits Role in Cholera Epidemic in Haiti - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/18/world/americas/united-nations-haiti-cholera.html <comment><AUTHOR> Officially, 10,000 died, but the numbers could be far higher.

Very tragic and makes for an interesting read about how safety protocols were not followed.</comment>


Jerome Lettvin - <AUTHOR> http://www.tengerresearch.com/learn/interviews/jeromelettvin_text.htm Fascinating interview with an amazing polymath. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Lettvin for an amusing anecdote about his experience with his son's pet octopus "J.D." (juvenile delinquent). <comment><AUTHOR> Fascinating interview with an amazing polymath. Also see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Lettvin> for an amusing anecdote about his experience with his son's pet octopus "J.D." (juvenile delinquent).</comment>


Don't drink the water in Boston without boiling it first. - <AUTHOR> http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/catastrophic_le.html

<comment><USER2> I once witnessed a pipe of the same dimensions bursting - the difference being that it was carrying 80 degree celsius hot water for central heating...

It was right under a main street (it's standard procedure to put large pipes under streets so you can get to them if anything goes wrong) and within 10 minutes the street looked like an earthquake had hit it - the massive amount of almost boiling water simply eroded the foundation under the street and washed it away. Tonnes and tonnes of 80 degree hot muddy water gushed up and flowed down the street to a nearby low-lying town square that quickly filled up. Luckily they got it shut off within 20 minutes, but it looked like the gates of hell had been opened with all that water and steam just spewing out of the ground.

Luckily nobody was hurt, but it was an interesting experience.

<comment><USER3> It sounds like a miracle that no one was hurt!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The contractor who built this water supply tunnel, which was finished only 7 years ago, is Modern Continental.

<http://www.mwra.com/osu/1003mwtfacts.html>

They were the Big Dig's largest contractor and are in Chapter 11 bankruptcy because federal prosecutors brought 49 charges against them including allegations that it knew about bolts coming loose in the ceiling of the Big Dig tunnel years before a ceiling collapse killed a motorist.

Shouldn't there be some kind of lifetime ban on them doing engineering work?

<comment><USER5> Them as a company or them as the individual engineers?

<comment><USER6> Both?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Thank you.

I wonder why Cambridge (where I live) is not listed? The surrounding towns are.

edit: according to <http://www.mwra.com/02org/html/whatis.htm>, Cambridge receives full sewer, but only "emergency backup" water from the MWRA.

edit2: a commenter at [http://www.wbur.org/2010/05/01/water-main- break/comment-page...](http://www.wbur.org/2010/05/01/water-main- break/comment-page-1#comment-10827) says Cambridge gets its water from Fresh Pond.

<comment><USER8> Off topic, but I thought this was the most appropriate thread. I just got a place in Somerville (lucky me ;-)). Are there any cool events around where you can meet people and make friends?

<comment><USER9> Open shop night at Sprout community science lab in Davis Square, Tuesday and Thursday nights.

Also, google Willoughby and Baltic.

<comment><USER10> Totally OT, but Willoughby and Baltic seems dead to me. I live a block from there and I just go to Sprout. Its generally free, great people and a really friendly environment.

<comment><USER11> I just went by both locations I found online, Elm St and Joy St, and both are abandoned. Nobody answers the phone or returns my messages. I just wanted to check out their MakerBot CNC, but I guess I'm out of luck and they are, too. Very sad.

<comment><USER9> Wow, that's depressing.

They moved out of the Elm Street building a year ago, but I thought it was because the Joy Street building was awesome. It looks like the main organizer, Meredith, moved away, and the place died.

Well, I can confirm that at least Sprout is alive and kicking.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I was in a Watertown MA supermarket at about 5 when my mother, who lives an hour away, called to tell me she saw this on TV and Watertown was affected.

I went to the bottled water aisle to get water for my family. It was mostly large packs of bottles. I managed to get 15 gallons in big jugs by going in the direction I saw a guy with jugs come from. They wheeled a cart with water out, and people were pulling it in boxes straight from the cart. At first, maybe 3-4 people were loading up on water, but that was it.

Within the 20 minutes I was there, I watched the shelves almost empty completely of water.

One nice thing--the supermarket manager, before I even got to the checkout, had discounted all the water--thank you Shaws!

The psychology of it was interesting. I felt bad about the jugs (I am I hording? should I share) but then thought how I would feel if I didn't have enough clean water for my pregnant wife and child, and family who is visiting for the birth. I calculated that I would feel like a bigger jerk if I didn't look out for them, so I went with it. I also called several friends and gave them a heads up on the run on water. One of them didn't know, and was able to find some at a CVS. So that is my story so far.

The article I just read said that the pipe was a "custom pipe" that burst, so they have no replacement ready and can't even give a timeframe.

edit: on the news they now think it was just a "connector" so it may be an easier fix.

<comment><USER13> So there's already going to be a major shortage, so they discount to further aggravate the problem?

Now, it's not really a major thing to consider since water is so cheap already that almost no one is thinking about the cost when filling their cart with ~$1 gallons of water. They were going to sell out in basically the same amount of time regardless, and this way buys the store good will ("thank you Shaws!", for example).

And I agree with your moral rationalization of you hording as much as you can get (within reason), adding in the fact that if you realize it's more than you need, you can always share it with friends/neighbors.

<comment><USER14> At least Shaw's didn't multiply the price by ten. Sounds like the manager at Shaw's cleverly identified getting rid of all of his (probably profitless) bottled water as fast as possible (and posting a sign outside saying they're out) as the best way to prevent clogging the store with the hoarding hordes.

<comment><USER13> If there weren't laws against price gouging, I'm sure they would have strongly considered multiplying the price by 10.

<comment><USER15> Maybe not. If you had a choice, would you shop again in a store that did that, vs one that didn't?

Shaws will still be selling stuff long after this is over, but people will remember.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I remember doing that while living in Taiwan. At least the climate in Boston makes having lukewarm water more bearable. When you are sweating in a tropical summer the last thing you want is a _warm_ glass of water.

<comment><USER17> This might be Myth Busters material, but wouldn't it be more energy efficient to drink water closer to the body's own temperature? Less energy is needed internally to process warm water, than to heat cold water up to 98.6 F.

This is also similar to why it's bad to drink soft drink, the body consumes more water to break it down than it gains from the soft drink.

<comment><USER18> >This is also similar to why it's bad to drink soft drink, the body consumes more water to break it down than it gains from the soft drink.

The longest one can last without additional water is something like 3 days, no? [http://health.howstuffworks.com/live-without-food-and- water....](http://health.howstuffworks.com/live-without-food-and- water.htm/printable) (it gives a couple of citations but I haven't checked them, I tried the sciam.com one but it's paywalled) gives 3-5 days + 1 for a "healthy" person.

So if this assertion is right then drinking exclusively soft drinks for about 5 days will kill you. A simple experiment to do.

<comment><USER19> You would also have to avoid juicy foods. You could probably avoid drinking water indefinitely if you ate enough apples.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I love that dirty water, OOOOOO Boston you're my home!!!!

(Sorry, had to, since EVERY Boston sports team plays it after a game)

<comment><USER21> After a win, you mean :)

<comment><USER20> ah, yes, like the Bruins today!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> If you're curious what it looks like:

[http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/massachusetts/boston-water- main...](http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/massachusetts/boston-water-main-break- catastrophic)

</comment><comment><USER23> Very strange.

I just finished reading Robert Harris' "Pompeii" which I started a couple days before the Iceland Volcano started putting out ash. Now the aqueduct breaks. Very strange coincidence... I hope my brain isn't projecting the content of the stuff I'm reading...

Luckily I live just outside the boil water area though.

</comment><comment><USER24> >dumping eight million gallons of water per hour into the Charles River.

I can't wait to see the Big Picture cover this.

</comment><comment><USER25> Wow, that's one big pipe. Though, you'd think the pressure inside the pipe would be greater than outside it, nullifying any immediate risk of contamination from other water sources.

<comment><USER26> If you read past the first couple of paragraphs, you'll find that the water needs to be boiled because they're pulling from unfiltered (or less-filtered) backup sources.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> There was a boil-water notice for northwest Washington, DC, within the last few weeks. We heard of it late, then found that the affected area ended about a mile north of us. But there was a spectacular break in the suburbs just before Christmas, requiring helicopter rescue of some stranded motorists. So it's not just Boston.

</comment><comment><USER15> Anyone know why it took 8 hours to turn off the valve controlling the pipe?

I could see a hour or two to identify the exact pipe, and locate the paperwork on where the valve is, but 8 hours?

<comment><USER18> I'd assume mains control valves would be computer controlled and be easily recognised by one of the lead engineers. Compare to an electricity outage - when the cables in our street were cut through the electricity company new within half hour which substation was out and within 2 hours had an estimate for repair. The repair was about 8 hours, granted this was a relatively minor repair.

Don't main pipes have flow monitors? In which case it could be almost automatic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Another +! for Cambridge, only area in the region not effected.

<comment><USER29> That may be true, but perhaps not? The Broad (in Kendall Square) just sent out this email: Dear Colleagues, As many of you may be aware, there has been a catastrophic leak in the water supply serving Greater Boston, and at present is dumping approximately 8 million gallons of water per hour into the Charles River.

Governor Deval Patrick has declared a State of Emergency, and has issued a "boil water" order for some 30 cities and towns. Even though the City of Cambridge maintains its own water supply, there are cross-connects, and as such you should not consume any of the water, including the coffee, at any of the Broad's facilities until further notice.

<comment><USER30> First our water, then our coffee? All of Kendall Sq will shut down! :/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Seems like a good time to re-read Zodiac.

What IS it about Boston?

</comment><comment><USER32> I'll get flamed, but I feel that way about most the water supply in the U.S. Ever look at the reports per county for what is in your water supply here? I don't care what anyone says, most of those contaminates listed aren't acceptable to me at any level. I hate the fact that I have to shower or brush my teeth with it.

Even worse are the chemicals they use to "clean" it, which doesn't get things like medications out, like my favorite additive "chloramine". The website is a little wonky, but check out <http://chloramine.org> \--not to be confused with chlorine which can be filtered out... chloramine is damn near impossible to filter.

I'm not an environmentalist nut, but if there is one thing in this country I don't find safe, it is my drinking/bathing water--and I'm not buying what the government is dishing about its safety and purity.

<!-- end of paranoid rant -->

<comment><USER33> Not acceptable at any level? Do you think infinitely dilute poisons are still harmful poisons? Do you think one molecule of arsenic will kill you?

BTW, did you know that natural spring water has contaminants too? And the water in every other country? Maybe the level of contaminants is better in some places, but you don't seem to be paying attention to that.

And did you know that all filters do is reduce the level of contaminants? There is no such thing as an absolutely perfect filter.

<comment><USER34> Yes. And the air we breathe is full of dangerous microbes. Almost anything we touch or ingest contains something risky. The bodies of human beings, as the bodies of all living organisms, include adaptations to deal with less than ideal environments.

As an actual matter of fact, tap water in quite a few parts of the United States is all but sterile.

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17456554>

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472650/>

<comment><USER7> And in case you're tempted, you may want to think twice before drinking that ultra-pure, 18 MOhm water you have handy in the lab:

[http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutdeminerali...](http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutdemineralized.pdf)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: is "The Social Network" motivating entrepreneurs? - <AUTHOR>

Do you think there would be an increase in number of startup's, people moving to the valley, college dropout's after watching "The Social Network"?<p>Beyond the fact that it is a movie and that part of it is fiction. I think it will inspire potential entrepreneurs to start coding their ideas and probably move to SFO. Don't you think so? <comment><USER2> Totally. I went home and started hacking until the early morning hours like I hadn't done in years.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think it will inspire a bunch of people to try who will never in a million years succeed. It will also make it crazy easy for coders to pick up girls at the bars.

<comment><USER4> LOL, I hope your second point is true! "I'm a programmer"

<comment><USER3> It really is. Social Network is going to do for our profession what Wall Street did in the 80s for Investment Banking.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't think it'll motivate people to start up a company any more than "the replacements" motivated people to be pro footballers. I think it might get people thinking about ideas, but in the end, it's the execution that counts.

Whilst it's always great for society in general to have as many innovators as possible, I think movies like this tout the "sexy" idea, instead of the grind- it-out reality. As soon as people who were inspired by a movie notice that fact, they jump ship as quickly as the hopped on.

</comment><comment><USER4> I really think it is. From watching the movie, I realized Zuckerberg has probably never had a better time in his life thans when he built Facebook from scratch. That made me also clear why many entrepreneurs cannot stay in one startup/project and need to recreate something new regularly. It's making me think also ;)

</comment><comment><USER6> Geekery has been cool for a while, but I've always felt that programming has carried a specific social stigma. With a bestselling movie that includes the line "I need to break out Emacs for that Perl script", maybe things are about to change.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I bet it will probably rise the number of YCombinator applicants for Summer 2011! :

</comment><comment><USER7> This article implies that might happen: [http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the- business-of-the-social-netw...](http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-business-of- the-social-network/?singlepage=true)

</comment><comment><USER8> I think any real entrepreneurs familiar with web development already know what startups are like, and won't change much.

But those who don't know what startups are about may give it a try, which is great.</comment>