RIP Bill Zeller - <AUTHOR> http://metatalk.metafilter.com/20205/RIP-Bill-Zeller <comment><USER3> Many thoughts that flashed through my mind as I read the suicide note, but I decided to file them all away and share only this old story:

The old town drunk died. His two sons, the bank president and the new town drunk were at his funeral. An onlooker, surprised at how different the two sons were, asked each one how he turned out the way he did.

The bank president responded, "With a father like that, how else could I turn out?"

The new town drunk responded, "With a father like that, how else could I turn out?"

FWIW, I am like the bank president. I have no idea why. All I know is that no matter whatever anyone ever did to me, it didn't matter. I have no idea if someone who turned out like the new town drunk can change (although I imagine it happens all the time). All I do know is that _it is possible_ for a victim to succeed and overcome all of his "darkness".

If anyone has any history remotely close to OP's and is entertaining similar thoughts, feel free to contact me off-line. I will tell you right now what I'll respond with: absolutely nothing. Because I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to become successful after being abused. But I do know that it's possible; I am living proof. Sometimes, just knowing that something is possible is enough to pursue it until you get it.

I'm truly sorry that OP's story ended like it did. Especially sorry because I know it could have been different. I just don't know how. Now no one will.

<comment><USER4> An interesting note: filing your feelings away is what caused this whole thing. Of course, the ones you're filing away may not be as painful for you, but still.

<comment><USER5> I think repression is an area where people use the same words to talk about different things. Which is why I try and separating things as _Successful repression_ which is used by most people on a regular basis and can be extremely helpful. However, "Whenever I think about what happened I feel manic and itchy and can't concentrate on anything else." suggests that the pain was not repressed just _ignored_ which does not really deal with the problem.

Don't get me wrong _ignoring_ things is also a useful technique for short term pain. However, it's best used for things like planing the funeral etc and if you are still using it after a few years it's really time to try something else / seek help.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A note of caution: If you choose to read the actual suicide note as I did, be prepared for a rather intense emotional trip. I don't mean to say that to dissuade anyone from reading it, but just that... I was not expecting what I ended up reading and it really made me sit back and, I dunno, just be sad for awhile. Such a shame.

<comment><USER7> I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life. It was very well thought-out suicide note; I think most people are quite baffled by it because of the degree of author's rational explanations, extreme honesty and empathy for others in spite of his own pains.

Also, he unintentionally perhaps shed light on programming which a lot of us could relate to,

 _At times growing up I would feel inconsolable rage, but I never connected this to what happened until puberty. I was able to keep the darkness at bay for a few hours at a time by doing things that required intense concentration, but it would always come back. Programming appealed to me for this reason._

 _I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling._

Like Bill Zeller, I retreated into programming at an early age to right a wrong and while programming is a lot of fun; I hid behind a screen to escape personal problems that I thought that the coding marathon high, money & prestige would solve. And the more fun programming got, the worse the issues got and the more I dived into my rabbit-hole.

This is not to take away anything from Bill Zeller; he is an incredible brave man alive and dead. Anyone who went to Trinity knows that it's a very hostile environment for coming out. The fact that he kept coding software then and beyond and kept a completely normal pretense is incredible to me. And I want to thank him for his iTunes ripping software, his inspiration to me when I was at undergrad and his brutal honesty in his suicide note.

<comment><USER8> _I for one, thought that it was quite positive thing and I respect his decision to take his own life._

I disagree. Maybe it's possible to understand some of what he felt from his eloquent explanation, but I don't think suicide is ever the only solution.

There will be other people reading this, who will be in similar situations. It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'.

There isn't anything brave about taking your own life.

<comment><USER9> > I don't think suicide is ever the only solution.

What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern medicine? Or a belief that it's a person's duty to live through intolerable pain for the sake of others?

> It fills me with so much sadness to think that there might be one who reads > this and thinks .. 'yep, that was the right thing to do'.

It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace from a life of intolerable pain, and have no thought but 'I would prefer they hadn't done that, to satisfy my abstract beliefs about right and wrong.'

I think the whole thing is very sad, but I feel very gratified to know that he is free of his demons forever.

<comment><USER10> > What do you base this on? Wishful thinking about the capability of modern > medicine?

It could be a personal belief, just like your belief that "he is free of this demons forever" or the fact that he somehow "found peace". I don't see anything wrong with someone believing that suicide is never a good solution.

> It annoys me that so many people will take a person who finally found peace > from a life of intolerable pain.

There is something about that statement that is bothering me and again, it is just probably because it clashes against my belief on life, death, etc. matters (so don't take this as a valid reasonable disagreement, just another point of view). The idea that somehow "he" is better now. I emphasize "he" because somehow it implies his continued existence, and that is quite strange. What if "he" doesn't exist anymore so there is nobody to feel at peace?

Does that mean that I would have preferred for him to still be alive and be suffering? Would have that been a better way? I don't think so either, so I am just another confused person.

I guess the best scenario would have been been if he sent out what he sent out but he _didn't actually kill himself_.

Perhaps naively, I believe that would have helped him, it would have let others know about his problem, and others , maybe even strangers like us, discussing his actions here, could have shared our stories or tried to do something to help.

<comment><USER9> I perceive the earnestness in your remarks, and I appreciate that. I mistook your earlier comments as more judgmental than they actually were. Sorry about that.

When I was in college a girl who was a close friend of a close friend killed herself, and I remember experiencing the same kinds of regrets that you are expressing. Wasn't there anything else she could have done? Didn't she know how much people cared about her?

Since then I've experienced things that have given me a different perspective, namely how a person's mind can be a prison of pain that all the external love in the world is a weak opponent against. I feel like Bill captured that when he described how even a relationship with a wonderful person whom he liked very much was sabotaged by his "darkness."

Maybe there is a drug that could have given Bill peace in life, but reading his note I feel almost certain that nothing anyone could say or do would have soothed his torment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Wow.

Having grown up abused by my own parents (in all ways except sexually), I identify with a lot of what he says. I used to think of suicide daily, now I just think of death. Counseling (sans drugs) is what helped me get there. It's good and bad now, but there's a positive trend.

I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals (though he does use the word doctor, so "counselor" might not be totally accurate). My counselor's office is where I most feel like myself, it's where I feel safe. If only Bill had a situation like that, he might still be here today.

I didn't know the guy personally, but I've read stories like this before, and one thing that stands out to me is how amazing some people that have been through trauma like this are. He went through all the hell that he did, dealt with it on a daily basis, yet still had the capacity to do great work, to make people laugh, to attract others to him, and to generally do awesome things ([http://blog.from.bz/2009/03/01/sudo-make-me-a-sandwich- stub-...](http://blog.from.bz/2009/03/01/sudo-make-me-a-sandwich-stub-code)).

Do yourself a favor and read the note all the way through. Pass it around. Remember that in general, half of the people you see every day have it shittier than you do. Try not to be a jerk.

<comment><USER12> _I think what saddens me most about this note is his experience with counseling professionals_

I can relate to that part of the note. With one (minor?) exception, I've never seen a proper doctor about my issues, but I've been to a number of counselors over the years. Almost all of them have been completely useless to me, because I can clearly see that I'm _not_ safe there.

I think it's a bit like the situation Mr. Zeller faced. I don't want to go far into my issues, because this isn't the place for that and, even if it were, my issues are nothing compared to his, but suffice it to say that in high school I was pretty concerned about my ability to manage my anger. I managed to tell a guidance counselor this, one I'd known since I started high school (she had first been my French teacher, then was assigned to me when she transitioned into counseling), and asked to be referred to a counselor before I hurt someone.

When I was with the counselor, however, although I was there explicitly because I was worried about hurting people, I was always measured in my responses. I limited what I said because I was always trying to determine where exactly the line was where a counselor becomes legally obligated to report me to someone, and I tried my damnedest to stay on my side of that line. It limited what I said, and it limited how much I could get out of the experience, and so ultimately everything broke down and the counselor more or less told me to come back when I was willing to actually talk. I ended up getting basically nothing out of the experience, except for some extra time with my grandparents since they lived near the counselors office. Considering my grandfather died in April, and I still think of him every day, I suppose I should be grateful for the experience because even if I got fuck all out of the actual counseling, I still got to see my grandparents more.

<comment><USER13> One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend, but someone that helps you solve your problems with professional advice (level of competency varies of course).

Getting over any recurrent destructive mood is much like a war. First you need to go to war, then you need strategies, you need to work on it and there's going to be pain involved, with multiple battles won and lost.

Going to counseling is one way to do it, another would be medication, or support groups or just good friends that care. Either way you have to deal with it and it isn't warm and cozy.

<comment><USER12> _One thing you have to realize is that a counselor/doctor is not your friend_

For a person dealing with trust issues, this sort of realization shatters any chance of progress, at least in my personal experience.

I can't feel safe if I think I could say the wrong word and have the cops drag me off for questioning. That's why I never got anywhere with counseling. For a person with trust issues, it's extremely important that you feel safe in counseling since you're making yourself extremely vulnerable by exposing yourself to them.

I've since dealt with a lot of my issues on my own. I haven't hurt myself intentionally in over two years, and that was an anomaly. It had been over two years since I had last hurt myself at that point.

The point is that these aren't easy problems, and there are no easy solutions.

<comment><USER14> If you are still afraid of crossing some sort of invisible line where your doctor/counselor is required to report you, then I would suggest that you research that a bit so that you know where that line is yourself. Then you can evaluate whether or not you think that you'll be able to fully open up without worrying about crossing that line. It may be worth the time/effort that you put into the research.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> As someone who once planned to take a secret to my grave, this whole thing saddens me.

I was luckier in a way that altered the course of my life, I let slip to a friend in college that I had a secret. I had no intention of telling him of course, but then he went ahead listing dozens and dozens of possible secrets until he skipped over mine. So I took a chance and I told him and he accepted me.

Looking back, that was the first crack in the darkness. People like me and Bill Zeller might only drop a hint that something is wrong once in our lives, don't be afraid to go chasing after it.

Thanks for finally sharing Bill, rest in peace now.

<comment><USER16> A good reminder to be attentive. Thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> A lot of this letter described what I felt like up until just a few months ago. I have also had experience with physical and emotional violence (no rape though) and felt absolutely worthless most of my life. One year ago I decided to seek out a therapist, which was one of the hardest things ever to do for me. Therapy has been painful at times, sometimes leaving me completely in shambles. But today I can say that I'm happy to be alive, and I feel worth of being loved and I escaped the dark cloud that used to surround me almost constantly for the majority of my life.

What I'm saying is: seek professional help. If you feel like you can't go on anymore, seek professional help. Talking helps. Let go of the secrets that keep eating you up alive. Share them with at least one person, be it a friend or a professional. But under no circumstance keep them to yourself until they kill you. Some of them weigh too much too carry them alone. Let someone help you.

<comment><USER18> Bill wanted to tell someone, but only one person. The problem is that you can't tell one person because everyone has someone else that they will tell. Someone always has a higher allegiance to another than you. Maybe it is different for married people, but then we get a chicken and egg problem. How can you find a partner to marry when issues like this, kept secret, keep you from having a long-term relationship?

He tried to trust people at Trinity but they spread his secrets. He knows that doctors and counselors have allowances for when they can disclose information. He probably floated personal information his whole life to people to see if they could be trusted. I bet each secret came back to him from another party. He couldn't find a person to trust so he didn't disclose his ultimate secret.

He only wanted 1 person. He could deal with 1. Maybe years later 2 people, but for now just 1. Not 1 in an anonymous posting online. Not 1 in a chat room. 1 right in front of you.

The problem is that there isn't 1. Some people can deal with that, being open and all. For some, the quest for 1 is the goal, and realization that there isn't 1 is hard to take. It doesn't help.

I read a lot of me in that letter. I am 29 now. Will I make it to 30? Yes. 35? Maybe. 40? ...

<comment><USER19> I'd like to respond to your assertion that "he knows that doctors and counselors have allowances for when they can disclose information."

This is true, but I think that it would be possible to find a counselor that would not disclose any information, even if they were technically allowed to do so. Furthermore, it seems possible to me that such secrets could be partially disclosed to a counselor in a way in which there would be no incentive for that counselor to pass along the information to another party.

Not having been in this kind of situation before, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to harbor such a secret for a lifetime, and perhaps for Bill the sheer weight of it made it impossible for him to tell anyone. But, I would just like to try to make the point that there are viable options other than keeping secrets bottled up.

As for your final comment, I sincerely hope that you can find the help that you need to make it through whatever it is that is distressing you.

<comment><USER18> Thank you for your kind words.

To understand where Bill is coming from you really need to hop into his shoes. He tried to trust people but they violated that trust. Regardless of the reasons for doing that, they didn't keep his secret. What he told them was much less important to him than his ultimate secret. If they can't keep those smaller secrets, why can they keep the big one?

For better or worse all of the other things he told people were tests. Who can keep this secret? You, ok, I will let you in on a little more, then a little more, then a little more. But no one kept all of them, so no one could complete the journey to the last one.

Bill had no reason to trust a doctor. Everything in his life confirmed the exact opposite - no one is to be trusted, everyone will tell your secrets. Everyone always has that one person that they want to tell, but no worries, it's ok, that person won't tell anyone.

Yup, but everyone has that person. And unfortunately for Bill, he wasn't able to find someone to tell, and have their "one person" be Bill, thus keeping his secret between two, and only two, people in this world.

<comment><USER14> For some people that 'one person' is themselves. And those people aren't necessarily abused people with deep, dark secrets. To say that _everyone_ has that person is a fallacy. The world rarely deals in absolutes.

<comment><USER18> That is true, it certainly is possible. I can't actually prove the absolute case.

But I do believe that it is much more probable that everyone has a personal outlet with whom they speak. Life is hard. (Can I even say that absolutely? Although completely foreign to me, I suppose there are people out there that don't have hardships in life.) People need to vent to someone, share some close or special with someone, and make a connection.

Without that people explode. This is one way people without that outlet explode.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a sad story. I am reminded of another Princeton suicide, Manzili Davis '06 drove to California during spring break of his senior year, rented a storage unit and took his life inside of it. It was weeks before he was found. <http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/54/83M99/>

We had mutual friends and I met him a few times. He had his own "darkness" just like Bill Zeller.

I do wonder if places like Princeton bring out the darkness in people there. I enjoyed my time there but spent the last year of it in and out of counseling and more depressed than I ever hope to be again.

There were some good counselors there in the health center who were kind and patient. It's too bad Bill wasn't able to connect with one of them.

A lot of the problem is with the town. The "town" of Princeton is a sham propped up to impress visiting students. There's really not a whole lot there. Meanwhile, students are required to live in dorms all 4 years, which gives them a really artificial "home life" that doesn't help ground you very much either.

I lived and worked in the town of Princeton for two years after graduation and it was a thoroughly depressing and isolating experience. Unless you're a member of the university community, there's just nothing there to get excited about. You have to leave on the train for the day to do anything interesting.

<comment><USER21> While Princeton may not quite have been sunny California, the banks of the Charles, or Manhattan's Upper West Side, at least you weren't in frozen, sunless, vitamin-D-less Ithaca, or downright dangerous New Haven. Count your blessings. :)

<comment><USER22> Seriously, the area around Yale is terrible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> _'You may wonder why I didn't just talk to a professional about this. I've seen a number of doctors since I was a teenager to talk about other issues and I'm positive that another doctor would not have helped. I was never given one piece of actionable advice, ever.'_

I hate that word 'actionable'. Every time I hear it used it is with the implicit assumption that the only information of value is information that is directly 'actionable', which is completely false.

There is also information that enlightens, that expands our understanding of ourselves, other people, or the world, that changes our perspective, or answers _why_ things are the way they are, that is equally or more valuable. That kind of knowledge is not directly 'actionable', but often shows the way forward.

The psychologist Milton Erickson showed that people innately know what they need to do overcome internal problems, but sometimes need an external impetus to realize and do it. Erickson found ways of providing that impetus with mirroring, indirect logic, and reframing, among others. Too bad Bill never found someone like that.

<comment><USER11> Very well said, I totally agree. It's not always black and white.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> A very dear friend of mine just committed suicide a month ago. He was a very intelligent guy about to become successful.

I wish he would have left a note like this behind to know why he did it.

I realize this comment doesn't add much value to the conversation, I'm just thinking out loud. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER24> Without going in to many details, I understand where he is coming from. I don't have the same history as Bill did, but I have lived through a generous amount of trauma that has left me to be diagnosed with PTSD, much as it seems he was dealing with. I have seen myself in his shoes in the past, and thankfully for me I have been able to move on and share my life with someone who understands my past, and let me understand her past which has been filled with similar trauma.

While it is a shame to see someone take their life, I can't help but agree that it is not selfish to commit suicide, but rather it is selfish to make someone live with the pain they are enduring. This doesn't make it OK, nor should people take that route, and at all costs should someone do their best to get the help they need - because no matter what, there is someone who can and will listen to you when it comes down to it. In the end though, don't hold it against the person if this is their ultimate decision - and think about try to remember them for the positive things that they stand for. When my best friend killed himself in front of me, I didn't know what to do, or how to react - I now understand and forgive him for everything, even though I think it could have been better for him in the long run if we had spent 15 minutes talking about his problems...

My condolences to his family and friends. I wish him peace and serenity - <USER2> deserves it.

</comment><comment><USER25> Damn, I saw the original (now deadened) post about this, and quickly sent him a Facebook message to try to convince him to choose life. Looks like I failed. Such a shame for such a bright mind to end so sadly and suddenly. Rest in peace.

<comment><USER26> I was apparently the first person on the phone with Princeton police (calling from Canada), while my friend posted the original thread you speak of. It seems he had already begun to hang himself by this time. I somehow wish I could have called a minute or two earlier. And further, wish he had been able to talk to someone about this before it ended the way it did. RIP my friend.

<comment><USER27> I sincerely hope you'll pardon the cliche, but you did everything you could.

Thanks for doing that much. A lot of people would be frozen in shock upon receiving something like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Brutal! How can we help if we don't even know something's wrong?

He was so afraid to let the secret out... maybe that needs to be made easier...?

I have no idea--I can't even begin to empathize with how difficult that must have been to live with.

<comment><USER29> Send his note to your friends and friends of friends. Disseminate it widely. It will send the message that people care. Somebody you know may be dealing with something similar.

<comment><USER30> Someone going through the same thing and then witnessing the end result of it on this man isn't exactly positive reinforcement

<comment><USER31> The sad part is that there are people who can keep confidences. There are counselors who would keep his confidence. There are friends who would keep his confidence. I'm convinced there's probably even a girl out there who could love him enough for who he was to help him understand that even though the darkness was present her love was for him and was willing to deal with it's presence.

If anything, this letter, and any suicide, can have the positive influence on the rest of us, encouraging us to reach out to those around us who are pained or troubled in anyway to just kind of try and lift their burdens for a moment.

Sorry if that sounds unrealistic, but there's been two suicides in my neighborhood in the last 6 months, and in both cases I think if there'd been more public discussion of options, more open discussion in society about feeling like there's no way out and what you can do when you feel that way, if there had been people who had been willing to tell people, "Hey, I know you've got issues, but I'm willing to be your friend anyway..." that in some way their lives perhaps could have been altered.

<comment><USER32> This whole thing has been making me think: It'd be expensive as hell and not covered by medical insurance, and it sounds crazy, but I wonder if talking to a lawyer would've helped. A study I can no longer locate found that talking to any intelligent person who shows an interest is comparable to a professional therapist; and lawyers generally take the privacy of their clients very seriously.

<comment><USER33> The Model Rules of Professional Conduct (with each state adopting their own, perhaps different rules) allow a lawyer to disclose confidential client information to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm. MRPC 1.6(b)(1).

So the lawyer may have kept his confidence, but may have had the option to disclose.

Unfortunately, not the steel trap that Bill was looking for.

<comment><USER34> > Unfortunately, not the steel trap that Bill was looking for.

A catholic priest may not reveal anything he learned during the confession, no exceptions. That's the only "profession" I know with such a strong promise of confidentiality.

"Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason." <http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P3G.HTM>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> All I can say is that I am angry. Not sad, but angry! Angry at what? The world? The fact that this can happen? The person that molest him? The incomprehensible miserable feeling that I cannot hope to understand?

I don't know. I just can't comprehend it.

<comment><USER36> If you ever see an injustice being committed without the perpetrator being caught and punished, keep this in mind.

I know I will be.

<comment><USER37> > If you ever see an injustice being committed without the perpetrator being > caught and punished

That's the majority of them. Sadly.

<comment><USER36> Too true. :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I so wish people would write out "Rest in Peace."

I know the intent is not to be disrespectful in any way, but the letters RIP just seem so inappropriate for such a serious and important sentiment.

</comment><comment><USER39> I went to a boarding school in high school. Being a relatively nice school, we had campuswide wireless and and the last two years of my education there, we were also allowed to have our laptops in the dorms. So when I discovered MyTunes which allowed every single student in the dormitory to access each other's music, it was an instant hit. Pretty sure everyone with a laptop and iTunes had it installed and there was one particular time I remember the IT guys realizing the awkward amount of traffic originating around the boys' dorm.

I met Bill when we interned at the same company during the summer of 2009. He was a very reserved guy, not shy or introverted --or maybe a little--. During a boring afternoon, I remember googling him and finding out that he was the who wrote MyTunes.

This was then my first foray into the tech industry and right there I was chatting it up with the guy who wrote that random piece of software that became a hit at my school. It was very weird for me and I think I made it weird for Bill for a while too because I made such a big deal out of it.

I'd not say we became good friends but I became someone Bill would at least come say hi when we had stuff together as interns and that made me feel special. We talked about random things several times, we had one particular fun conversation about life in CT and another about deanonymizing data from AOL search results.

During that summer, Bill transformed from being a rather chubby guy to a decent looking man; I think he had put pictures of himself before and after the summer. It was kind of humbling as I was kind of trying to do the same but couldn't pull it off like he did.

Once the internship was over, we became friends on Facebook and talked randomly every once in a while. Maybe a few times at best. I liked his status updates, he liked mine. Stuff like that.

So few days ago, I woke up sick at 6AM (PST) and kind of involuntarily logged in to Facebook. I saw his status update which was just "Note: <link>". I clicked on it and there it was, that note. Sitting in my bed, reading the first paragraphs, I wasn't sure if this was something he wrote, something he wanted to share or some sort of random writing. It took me a few passes of the first few paragraphs to realize that this was what I thought it was.

Once I realized that, I started shivering. I knew I had to do something but wasn't sure what I had to do. I saw my RA from college was online; I told him that I think I saw a suicide note on Facebook and I was calling the police. He told me that I should first call my friend but I didn't have Bill's #.

So I looked up the Princeton PD's phone number and gave them a call. As soon as I mentioned "Bill Zeller", they transferred me first to a "safety official" and then to another.

The gentlemen on the phone told me that "someone has found him" and they "took him down for treatment". I asked him about his condition but all he'd say was "he is receiving treatment". They took down my phone number and my name and I hung up.

As a response to what I realized has happened, I sent Bill a pretty lengthy message on Facebook. I told "him" that I wasn't qualified to say anything about his pain but I would be very upset to see a man like him perish. I told him a part of the MyTunes story, probably the 10th time now. I told him that things, however shitty, might become would get better. I felt like I had to tell him that I cared. I told him to "hit me up" when he comes to SF. I think we had a brief conversation on Facebook when I posted something about moving to SF and how he'd say hi.

It feels very weird that I sent that message now. No idea if anyone is going to read it. If I believed in god or after-life, I would have hoped that he'd see it.

Now I saw the news, weirdly on HN before anywhere else. I read the MeFi link and all the comments here; I saw Karan's comments about how he called Princeton PD too. This is all weird to me and I have no idea why I am writing this. Some sort of self-help, I guess.

I checked his Facebook account. It's bizarre, it really is. This is not the first suicide of someone I knew or the first suicide of someone on Facebook whose profile I can see. People are commenting, posting things. There are a few comments like "I hope you can pull thru", posted around the time his condition become public and then it becomes all condolences as the news of his passing is heard.

It is weird to see him posting photos of a random desert he made a few days before he hung himself.

I don't want to turn this into a cheesy "how technology has life and death" thing so I'll stop here.

When I read the note, what stuck wasn't that he was abused but how big of a secret he had and still couldn't do anything about it. Or even more than that, how something like this ate him up from the inside, consumed him. That just makes me look at people around him and wonder. And then I feel childish, for wondering for things like that.

I had a really big mistrust for most people around me, caused by a rather traumatic incident. Nothing too extraordinary, I just took it badly. I felt like everyone around me was out to get each other. I don't think I ever considered suicide but I remember thinking that I'll carry that scar for the rest of my life.

I wish that Bill could get help. As others have said, there are people you can trust your secrets with, maybe not your friends but professional counselors. I cannot get myself to say "I respect his decision" as this is someone taking their life and I wish he didn't perish like this but part of me feels that at least he won't suffer the way he had been apparently.

I'll take a few moments today to think about my issues, things that make me upset and will try to talk to someone about them. Maybe I'll drink a bit, talk to some friends about some of my issues, most of which are admittedly minor. I hope everyone who reads the news of Bill takes a few moments to think about their life and how they can help themselves. Maybe that way, he'll have helped others handle their problems and not do what he did.

<comment><USER26> Well said bud.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Just like any opinion, one very well written, it kind of made me feel that he can be right.

But No. I don't want to believe in that.

Also, I really don't understand his situation. Only the one with the injury knows how painful it is. But I really wish the nice people don't leave the world so soon for a stupid reason.

It was scary to read his explanations why he can not open up. We can send some peace Bill's soul's way if we learn the situation a bit better and try to be more helpful to people who might be in trouble.

</comment><comment><USER41> Bill is like many others, haunted by his past, but appart from that he was a great men. Others would have killed many people rather than avoid much pain.

see you some day bill.

<comment><USER42> i don't think Bill is into your fallacy dude, your "see you someday" fallacy killed him, have a little respect.

(clearly the promoters of the comment above either didn't read the note, or have absolutely no sense of respect for what Bill said, ATROCIOUS)

<comment><USER43> The "see you someday" fallacy did not kill him. Actually, his contempt for his parents' religion (which is a tangential component in the note; certainly not its primary grievance and not "what killed him") was caused by the "I'll never see you because you'll be burning in awful hell forever because you disagree with my pastor" fallacy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There are always unknown factors in any relationship, friendship or acquaintance. We can never know the full sum of another person's experiences, or how these have shaped the way they see the world.

More than anything, the next time I feel wronged or judgemental - I'm going to make more of an effort to give the benefit of the doubt. The world isn't black or white - the shades of grey seem to increase with every day.

Really, really sad.

</comment><comment><USER44> Sad story, but this is what depression feels like, if I had such a skeleton in the closet, I probably would have done the same. :*(

</comment><comment><USER45> Seems like he was a really smart guy. It's sad no one was able to help him. Rest in peace Bill Zeller.

</comment><comment><USER43> I've been wondering what the outcome was since the suicide note was posted here briefly the other day, and have been meaning to look for an obituary. It was a very powerful note. I hope he can finally access the peace he sought.

</comment><comment><USER46> Bill's family & friends have set up a Memory Page to share memories together online.

<http://1000Memories.com/BillZeller>

If you knew Bill, please join his page.

</comment><comment><USER47> This is a sad day for all programmers, and also for those who have been molested in any way. I cannot honestly understand the true pain he must have felt, but I believe his pain was unlike anything most of us can understand.

What was most telling was his utter disgust for his parents, to the extent he loathed them even more than he loathed the person who molested him and caused darkness to reign over his life. And most ironic is that his parents believed abandoning him for the love of God was in their and his best interest. I am a Christian, and it sickens me what they have done because of what they believed as him not being "saved."

I want to believe him, that he took his life because of the "darkness" in his life, resulting from being molested as a child. But I am still puzzled that he never spoke a word of disgust about the person who molested him. This was shocking, considering he laid into his friends who couldn't keep a secret, he mercilessly criticized his parents, yet never mention a bad word about the molester, only the "darkness."

Unless, and this might be huge, the "darkness" is his father. He said his mother loves him at one point, but he never said a good word about his dad. He only criticized his father (while criticizing both parents). I am beginning to think his father is the one who molested him, considering everything in his letter.

The letter was very important, because it allows the reader to carefully study and try to understand what might have caused this young man to take his own life. Though being molested caused him much trouble and "darkness" throughout his life, I believe his parents are partly to be blame for his mindful decline into frightful and terrifying non-existence. And the big secret in his letter is probably that his father molested him.

</comment><comment><USER48> Its a very sad story. Its a sad ending to a sad life. I have known many people with a horrible past. I cannot understand their pain. I cannot understand their depression because I have never experienced it. I can understand their desire to end it all. By observing and listening to their pain that goes on year after year, I can believe their life is very sad. When I was younger I wanted to become violent against the perpetrators of such crimes. Now that I am older, I realize this just adds to the problem. As a parent, his note is very revealing to me. A warning about how I could make mistakes with my children. I did not find it to intense. I am very grateful he took the time to explain everything. I am grateful he talked about his family. I will spend quit a bit of time thinking about his family and the mistakes they made. We can learn from his pain.

</comment><comment><USER49> My perps were never caught either. I identify with a lot of the feelings he illustrated in this letter. It's bringing tears to my eyes. It is so hard to explain something as controversial as this to people who have never experienced or do not understand it, and Bill did a momentous job. Rest in peace, Bill Zeller, and I wish for a moment that I believed in some kind of afterlife, because you deserve heaven after all this hell you've been through.

</comment><comment><USER50> Terrible, shocking news. I knew Bill in passing, as we'd talked about doing a project together. He was a very nice, very smart guy. He will be missed.

</comment><comment><USER51> Strange to see a name on HN and think, wait, I knew someone with that name. Wait, the guy I knew went to Princeton. Wait...

I never met Bill in person, but we collaborated on a couple projects and used to exchange random e-mails and IMs. He was a bright guy and I enjoyed our correspondence. His note is heartbreaking, and I hope he has finally found peace.

</comment><comment><USER52> I've no business commenting on this as I haven't ever suffered a similar sort of trauma, you could argue. However I did start reading this note and found myself strongly flustered at this part:

 _I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling._

I'm annoyed at how stupid it is. And how, until recently, I wouldn't even have noticed. Let me translate to illustrate:

 _I desperately wanted to see what was on top of that hill over there. I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would find out what is at the top of the hill. But nothing I did made a dent in my knowledge_

Wouldn't that be silly? Wouldn't that make you wonder what he was thinking? Wouldn't you say "so go climb the hill. That's what you need to do and that's all you need to do. Forget the distractions. Go over there. Climb the hill as high as you can and keep trying every few days until you build up the fitness to get to the top".

Yet you see the note of the guy and you feel sorry for him and how hard he tried to keep living and how much he struggled and what pain he was in and he missed this concept completely. If you want peace you need to work on peace and why you can't be at peace and changing yourself so you can. If you want to not be haunted you need to work on not being haunted and if you want to be happy you need to work on being happy and how you can be. Not on grad school or weight loss or gym work or _anything_ else. Your life isn't unhappy, your thoughts are unhappy. Don't improve your life, improve your thoughts. It might not work, but the other way cannot work.

If your code isn't working right, you'll never ever ever fix it by going to the gym. You will only stand any chance of fixing it if you look for the bugs in the code that isn't working and out from there. If you have been hurt and can't be happy, you need to work out how to feel happy even though you got hurt. That's it. That mental adjustment is where the bulk of your energy should be going. Learning to change it and trying repeatedly until you succeed.

It's so frustrating to look at it and see him basically saying "I skirted around my problems all my life and suffered horribly, and when they didn't magically go away I decided they were completely unfixable".

You can feel however you like about whatever you like. This definitely extends to feeling good even when bad things happen. Maybe not _all_ bad things, but many. It may not extend to PTSD. What's frustrating is that he believed he was unfixable _without any solid basis for that belief_ \- without talking to a single expert, even - then made the biggest and last decision of his life based on this conclusion.

It's not cowardly or morally inferior or anything like that, it's just ... a strategy that stands a low chance of helping.

<comment><USER53> You assume that he was able to apply logic to his emotional sensibilities. Because of what happened to him, this could never be the case. The darkness, as he called it, enveloped his reason. One of a host of horrific and sad consequences of his suffering.

<comment><USER52> _Because of what happened to him, this could never be the case._

No, not because of what happened to him, because almost nobody thinks that way in our society so there's no reason why he would.

Is there anything in your life which hurts to think about? Have you ever dedicated yourself to working out why it hurts and how to stop it hurting, or do you continually avoid thinking about it? I'm guessing that there is, and that you avoid it because it's never even crossed your mind that it might be fixable.

And that it's almost certainly not crossed your mind to start by assuming it is fixable and then try as many techniques as you can find and keep trying hard and practising them and looking for more and not giving up until you have found one that works. Because, you know, everyone suffers and suffering is normal. Isn't that sad?

<comment><USER53> Actually, I do this often - I often think about why something is bothering me or why a particular incident hurt me or offended me. Maybe because I'm pretty introspective, I literally don't know how to put off things that bother me because they are ever present in my mind.

And I do assume that it's fixable because, at one point, I was not bothered or unhappy or depressed. So I assume that whatever it is that's upsetting me, I can find out the cause, fix it, and return to being ok.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Wow...I knew him at Princeton in a passing sense, we were in the same computer graphics class and he advised my group for another class. He was without a doubt a brilliant guy.

</comment><comment><USER55> I'm just truly lost for words, hope he finds peace.

</comment><comment><USER56> RIP Bill. Hopefully, the pain has stopped now.

</comment><comment><USER57> This might be a good time to mention that we are looking for volunteers for <http://CompassionPit.com/>. It was created by people who have struggled with depression for most of their life. The other day someone commented about it, "I used CompassionPit for the first time this week. I really like the idea of it. Reminds me of when I reached out to an online videogame friend when I was 12 years old when I was super depressed." I think many people here can relate to this. Anyway, if you want to contribute you can do it in two ways. You can either just join and be present for other people, or you can help with the source code. It's written in python. Your help would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

Edit: the source is available at <https://github.com/zackster/CompassionPit> \- looking to add a few features... send me an email if you are available.

<comment><USER58> Great idea. Would you consider changing the "pit" part of the name?

<comment><USER57> I would consider it but I am skeptical that it would be a worthwhile change. E.g. Something like "CompassionPlane" might promote more of a sense of equality but it also negates the dark truths that, if more readily confronted, would perhaps have helped certain people avoid the "pit" they are in. When you are feeling awful it does not help to pretend otherwise. You are truly feeling awful and not resisting it is the first step.

I welcome your thoughts

<comment><USER59> I agree with Kingsley. "Pit" is a very depressing word, more likely to conjure up images of the doldrums than of compassion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Wow. That was intense. Not expecting to read such a well thought out note.

</comment><comment><USER61> I think he should have joined doctors without borders, peace corps or whatever it is called, or one of those Christian mission (even though he had a problem with Christians) . He may have found peace in helping those who suffered more then him

<comment><USER62> Do you really think most of the people doctors without borders helped suffered as much as he did?

<comment><USER63> I don't think any of us can honestly answer that question. Why is it even relevant what state most of the people are in.</comment></comment></comment>


Nerds 2.0.1: Len and Sandy talk about founding Cisco, VCs, being indentured, and getting pushed out - <AUTHOR> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2534997893350167670&q=nerds+2.0.1#49m27s <comment><AUTHOR> A number of lessons here. One, VCs are sharks -- don't let them make you vest what you already own. Two, they are also _your_ sharks, so don't sell off all your shares just because you can't stand them.

Len and Sandy owned 30% of Cisco and sold when the company was worth around _one_ billion. Today, Google reports CSCO Mkt Cap: 161.15B.

As my brother said, you've got to have a really sucky outlook to have $100 million and be bitter about it!</comment>


Lessons Learned: Three Years of Running a Software Consultancy - <AUTHOR> http://reefpoints.dockyard.com/2014/12/28/lessons-learned-three-years-running-a-software-consultancy.html

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a continuation of the series I've published over the past three years:

[http://reefpoints.dockyard.com/2013/12/22/lessons-learned- tw...](http://reefpoints.dockyard.com/2013/12/22/lessons-learned-two-years-of- running-a-dockyard.html)

[http://reefpoints.dockyard.com/opinion/2012/06/21/lessons- le...](http://reefpoints.dockyard.com/opinion/2012/06/21/lessons-learned-six- month-of-running-dockyard.html)

</comment><comment><USER2> Props for sharing your actual revenue and profit numbers. This ended up being much more interesting than the title suggested. I was most interested in the two times you almost had to shut DockYard down. What do you think your employees and customers will feel seeing that you almost had to close DockYard twice, as well as what your revenue and profit figures are?

<comment><AUTHOR> Posting profit & revenue hasn't hurt us in the past. I'm pretty open with our numbers with everyone at DockYard, they knew what those were prior to this post.

I'm pretty sure everyone at DockYard knew of our difficulties earlier this year. We never had a sit down "this is a problem" type meeting but it has been talked about quite a bit. And I went over some of this at a panel I was on a few months ago.

As far as clients go, our problems weren't quality related they were cashflow related. Which I'm sure many people running a business are all too familiar with. Cashflow problems can shut you down faster than anything else. We are pretty confident that we now have a plan to mitigate these issues. We'll see how this pans out in 2015 however.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: can I visit your Dublin office? - <AUTHOR>

I happen to be in Dublin for the Node.js conference on September 8-13 and I'd love to visit any startup office or IT workplace there, maybe meet some passionate developers and share some ideas. Also, I'd like to have a coffee with anyone or/and maybe hack a MVP during my stay there.<p>Also if anyone would recommend some cool places to see there and fun stuff to do I would really appreciate it ;) <comment><USER2> Come by the 10gen offices for a coffee! Are you going to nodeconf.eu I guess? Staying on the island? Ping me @gregormacadam :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes I am going to the nodeconf :) I am not staying on the island because I bought a dayticket, I will book a hotel room and will stay around 1 week in Dublin. Will be my first time there.</comment></comment>


Why Siri Is a Google Killer - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2011/10/28/why-siri-is-a-google-killer/

<comment><USER2> This article is lame:

Siri has personality - it is usual AAPL bullshit.

It's true Google has experience in the voice rec space and doing some simple voice apps but they do not have the personality and AI of Siri and that will be very difficult to copy - Main part of Siri AI is Wolfram Alfa(<http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=who+is+lukes+father>) back end. Everyone who can pay to Wolfram can copy this. Google has more competence and experience in AI than Apple.

Yet, the biggest advantage over any other voice application out there today, and the apps still to be developed, is the massive data Siri is now and will continue to collect in the next 2 years. - Google has google voice. Google voice works in many languages, not only in English. It works everywhere from browser since 2009

</comment><comment><USER3> google what killer? all of google? he must be joking, or not know what google is.

i need people to read my article, so i'll put 'google killer' in the title then i'll have some bullet points, job accomplished.</comment>


Report Warns Silicon Valley Could Lose Its Edge - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/technology/11valley.html

<comment><USER2> As PG said in his interview on Mixergy, it's not so much about the amount of funding, but the community, for mentoring, advices etc.

It's not obvious that route 128 was left in the dust of silicon valley because of less funding rather than the ecosystem of founders/angels/VC.

Also Richard Florida discusses the fact that CMU has a lot of R&D and VC but no big tech companies because these are moving where the best people are for engineering but also design, marketing, sales. One could argue that design marketing and sales are more important than technology in the web industry.

</comment><comment><USER3> Am I the only one who is tired of people talking about green technology -- it will not help the economy until it's better than the alternatives. Asking for federal "partners" and "stimulus" is just asking for a handout.

<comment><USER4> Once we've off-shored all of our manufacturing, our service work, and our "knowledge work" .. All that's left is mcdonalds and federal welfare programs... ie hand-outs.</comment></comment>


Weekly Coding Interview Problems by Email - <AUTHOR> https://www.interviewcake.com/free-weekly-coding-interview-problem-newsletter <comment><USER2> There is an occasional event that happens to me while on HN where I see a title that catches my eye because it rings a certain bell in my mind. I click through the link and as the page loads my stomach fills with butterflies as I experience the strange sensation of finding another person has implemented an idea of "mine", at times with frightening accuracy with regards to how I conceived of it.

I use "mine" because obviously the idea is not mine. It's an idea I'm sure hundreds of us of have had.

This particular site/product was one I "dreamed up" immediately after a very disappointing interview performance. The sting of that experience made me want to fix it for other people by giving them a clear path for being prepared for "Google-esque" interviews. This particular implementation looks to be fairly well executed. I signed up and hope it works out because I think it could be useful.

What these experiences confirm for me is something we all already know. There are really no new ideas under the sun. Or at least they are very, very rare. Just pick a problem you know you can solve and then solve it the best way you possibly know how and if your best is better than anyone elses best, and it's a good idea, and the timing is right, you'll probably be successful.

On another note, I think it's interesting the creator choose the "2 egg problem" as the example problem. I believe it is the prime example of everything that is wrong with engineering interview culture. Not sure if that makes it ideal material for a site like this or pointless trivia.

<comment><USER3> I'm trying to see if a bootcamp angle to this works in the valley: [http://interviewkickstart.com](http://interviewkickstart.com) .

My only revenues are from people paying to come for practice with some very good teachers/interviewers.

I help them thru their job search afterwards, but don't take any placement revenue from anywhere. That helps me advice the candidates (and the companies) in a neutral, truthful way, without conflicts of interest. Candidates like that and that's maybe one reason why my batches are going full.

I've poured myself into making this successful. Fingers crossed for the future. All ears for suggestions and advice.

<comment><USER4> Interesting idea.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think the problem with this site is that it acknowledges that interview questions are something you can study for specifically.

Interview questions as a whole apparently have nothing to do with ability to really code. That's just sad isn't it? Riddles are no fun if they have to be solved under pressure.

<comment><USER6> no not at all, these are examples of some of the things you're expected to know as a competent engineer. being able to solve a puzzle is one thing, being able to solve it at the optimal efficiency is a feature of the best engineers - don't you think the people that can arrive at these solutions would be better products? It depends on your job, but I work on big clusters on machine learning systems and the difference between an optimal algorithm and one that's just ok is huge.

<comment><USER7> > these are examples of some of the things you're expected to know as a > competent engineer

I find this statement tenuous at best when the example question has absolutely no programming component of any kind and is entirely a little math puzzler about determining the highest floor from which one can safely drop an egg.

It's certainly an interesting problem, and the explanation is presented incredibly well, so I don't fault the site itself. I'm also aware that this is something of a pop culture question for "programming" interviews. However, I don't believe that it is in any sense true that it is necessary to excel at this sort of question in order to be a competent programmer.

This might seem representative of the experience of trying to design a novel algorithm to solve a new problem, but in fact it couldn't be less representative. I've had to write some hairy code in my job a few times, and not once was I under time pressure or expected to have the critical insight within five minutes. Any problem that has any sort of creative or exploratory or "research" aspect to it should not be under time pressure, and ideally it should be mixed in with other work so that you can rest from the problem and come back to it later. The vast majority of candidates who will pass this particular test all the way to the end are ones who just memorized it online.

<comment><USER6> wow, unless you got a different question that I did I am amazed at your response. The algorithm is used often in CS, that you didn't know this kind of makes my point. Sure you can probably work as a programmer for years and not care about writing well optimized code, processors are so damn fast these days you can ignore the code quality and get away with it.

Also if you couldn't reason your way to the answer how would I have any confidence you could reason any other problem of similar difficulty level. This kind of problem _shouldn 't_ you more than 5 or 10 minutes to figure out.

Sorry, we pass on your application :)

<comment><USER7> That's quite a loaded and passive-aggressive non-response. It does not befit this forum and certainly does not display the maturity I'd require from anybody reviewing my resume. It's so filled with assumptions I don't even know where to begin. Truly, I do not know how you deduced from my post that I don't care about writing well-optimized code. You clearly didn't understand what I wrote.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I would walk out of a job interview that asked brain teasers. It's not revealing of anything and tells the interviewers that either you've heard that piece of trivia before, or you got lucky and reasoned it out. And "we just want to see how you think" is evidence that the interviewers hadn't thought about how to _actually_ determine what kind of an engineer you were.

The best interview I ever had was basically a small amount of spec work accompanied by a writeup of why I did what I did.

<comment><USER9> It's been a long time (if ever) since I've heard anybody suggest that abstract algorithm questions are _great_ interview questions or should be used exclusively, but I seem to constantly hear that they are _totally useless_ and if you ever ask such a question _you 're an idiot and I'm leaving_. It seems to me that both perspectives are much too extreme.

<comment><USER10> A bad interviewer is not necessarily a bad employer, anyway.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Just visiting the site brings back PTS from past coding interviews. I'm convinced that live coding interviews are a personality / public speaking test, not a skills / knowledge test.

What's wrong with giving the candidate a take home problem then brining them in to walk through their solution / reasoning? I've hired this way before and worked out exceptionally well.

<comment><USER12> I recently had an interview which was the worst of both worlds.

I was given a take home problem under the guise that they did not do live whiteboard coding interviews. I did the problem, and it was impressive enough to get me on the phone. I was impressive enough to get from the phone to an on-site.

What do you think happened at the on-site? Yup, standard whiteboard coding interviews. Nervousness and pressure means I didn't have a very good showing, although I did solve the problems.

Was told that very day that I wasn't going to be a good fit. Any feedback from the interview where we finally did talk about my solution to the take home problem would not have been taken into consideration as I was told it wasn't a fit right after that interview and nothing was said between the two people.

I really do think that the only thing they found out about me was that I can not do those sorts of problems while nervous and under pressure. What they didn't find out was anything about my actual abilities.

<comment><USER13> I wouldn't be that sure. Similar thing happened to me in the past. Two phone interviews (one with HR, one with a developer). Asked to go for a face-to-face and they asked me to do a coding exercise in an hour but what they wanted would've taken a good few days to implement.

Anyway, my solution worked. We went through my code and discussed a few possible performance improvements. I was also asked a few theoretical questions which I answered confidently and was under no pressure at all.

They got back to me two days later just saying 'no'. No feed-back whatsoever. It was because the two developer who interviewed me were the world's most miserable developers and the moment they walked in I could tell they have no interest in talking to me or interviewing me. Not even trying to engage in small talk. I wasn't going to take it even if I was offered the role because I wouldn't want to work with them. And they probably found me too friendly and sociable and instead wanted to work with an introvert.

Bottomline is it all comes down to the chemistry. This sounds like I'm talking about romantic relationships but it's more or less the same whenever you're about to join a new social group. That's why all these coding exercises, in my opinion, are just a waste of time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Interview questions are great tests of algorithmic thinking, which is why some companies ask them. I don't plan on interviewing for a job any time soon and I probably wouldn't want to work at a company that asks questions like this anyway. But I would like to get better at problem solving in general, and interview questions seem like a great way to focus on developing a better analytical approach.

I wonder if anyone else studies these types of problems and gains something from it, or if they're just asked during interviews and then forgotten.

<comment><USER6> sounds a little like cognitive dissonance there, not wanting to work for a company that gave you a perfectly reasonable test of your algorithmic abilities.

it's not whether you immediately forget the question/solution, it's about reasoning your way to the solution. It doesn't matter if you forget after because you've proven that you can get there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Typo in the first sentence..

"We collect the most popular real-world coding interview questions and carefully craft wrteups that are ridiculously easy to understand."

wrteups = write-ups.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

(I'mma wait on pushing the fix until traffic dies down a bit.)

<comment> FLUX-YOU Coding Problem: How do you fix a typo during high traffic without breaking production?!

<comment><USER16> How to fix a typo during high traffic (six digit CCUs) without breaking: 1\. svn commit 2\. Wait for all the tests to pass 3\. Run imvu_website_push

Oh, yeah, we are hiring, and don't ask the egg question during interviewing. :-)

<comment><USER17> SVN? Ouch. Any plans for migration to git/hg?

<comment><USER16> Because everyone develops on trunk, migrating a >200k commit repo isn't high ROI. Works great for us! (Newer repos, like our real time web messaging and our C++ WebGL game engine, are in git)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I signed up to [http://codingforinterviews.com/](http://codingforinterviews.com/) awhile back and only got a couple problems in my inbox. Hope to have better luck with this one.

</comment><comment><USER19> I took a bunch of CS classes a few years ago so I could build a software product. Now it's built and launched with paying customers and I have a real developer who has taken over coding. However, I've noticed that my own programming skills have lapse. I guess if you don't use it you lose it. Something like this might just be helpful for retaining hard won skills. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER20> i hope it's not just questions from Gayle's book and glassdoor

</comment><comment><USER21> ive been a subscriber of their email newsletter for a while now. (Only noticed emails in last few weeks though). but everytime i see one, i always open it, one of the few engaging newsletters.

(i'm not interviewing for any position, just think its decent content and well laid out).

</comment><comment><USER22> I get these emails weekly and it's very helpful in interview prep.

</comment><comment><USER23> Emailed you guys. I got this question: You have an array of integers, and for each index you want to find the product of every integer except the integer at that index.

Your answer is actually O(2n) time :). Here's O(n) time: [https://gist.github.com/jcdickinson/8026c04dfc0d46bcce76](https://gist.github.com/jcdickinson/8026c04dfc0d46bcce76)

<comment><USER24> But wait, O(2n) and O(n) are the same aren't they? Eg both linear, constant factor doesn't make a difference to the time complexity. Or did you mean to write O(2^n) or something?

<comment><USER23> > But wait, O(2n) and O(n) are the same aren't they?

I guess it depends on where you work, I guess I've grown used to the more accurate complexities we use around here and forgot about the concrete theory. For us, twice the time is twice the time no matter how you sugar coat it.

So, uh, my bad. You are correct.

<comment><USER25> > For us, twice the time is twice the time no matter how you sugar coat it.

Which is funny, because your method still uses 2n multiplications, it just computes them in the same loop.

<comment><USER23> Well I look silly don't I. It microbenched it and their solution actually faster.

If you have a golden hammer, every problem looks like a red thumb.

<comment><USER24> Lots of respect for replying to a pretty snarky comment and admitting that you were wrong with good humour, if everyone was like this internet comments would be a whole lot better :)

<comment><USER25> Ah crap, did it come across as snarky? I'm not very good at conveying tone through comments, it was supposed to be mildly poking fun while making a minor nitpick.

<comment><USER24> It did, at least the way I read it. That might say more about me than it does about you though :)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Classification of the Principal Programming Paradigms (2009) - <AUTHOR> https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigms.html <comment><USER2> FWIW, the linked book, "Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming"(CTM), is imo a fantastic book, and there are free classes on edX ("Paradigms of Computer Programming", I think it's now split in two now) that go over the material.

Highly recommended if you have an interest in this stuff.

<comment><USER3> As far as I remember one of the main ideas was "dataflow variables", which are lazily evaluated in parallel (?)

I've read about this paradigm in the literature, e.g. with the Lucid language and others. And the book goes into some depth about it.

But somehow this paradigm hasn't caught on, despite the constant production of new experimental languages. And I've never seen a real program in it -- e.g. one over 5K lines that people use.

Anyone have a conjecture on what happened? Is it flawed, or did nobody pay enough attention? I think there is some overlap with async/await which seems to be the dominant concurrency paradigm now (C#, JS, Python, Rust, etc.)

I think one issue is that real systems are composed of multiple languages, and it's hard to bridge programs with wildly different evaluation semantics with C or JavaScript code.

And I guess the paradigm is not "reactive". It wants to control the main loop, but in GUIs and networking code where async/await is appropriate, the app doesn't "own" the thread of control. A new paradigm for batch programs is perhaps of limited use.

I guess I sort of answered my own question -- the model doesn't solve enough problems to justify its cost. (Also, another issue is that it's a model of very fine-grained parallelism, where as coarse-grained parallelism with limited communication is faster. That's how people optimize in practice.)

I'm interested in any contrary opinions though.

<comment><USER4> > I think there is some overlap with async/await which seems to be the > dominant concurrency paradigm now

Dataflow variables are exactly promises where every use that calls for the result is awaited; in a language where it's the core paradigm, you just don't write async and await everywhere (and often the runtime will be free to abandon calculations that won't be used), so, no, it doesn't just have "some overlap" with async/await; async/await is syntax to for using the paradigm in a language that is otherwise eager and synchronous.

So, it's also wrong to say that it hasn't caught on, the paradigm is pervasive and frequently used in industrial programming, which usually uses multiparadigm languages, not languages purely devoted to a single paradigm.

> (Also, another issue is that it's a model of very fine-grained parallelism, > where as coarse-grained parallelism with limited communication is faster. > That's how people optimize in practice.)

Dataflow variable don't require any parallelism, though they can leverage it.

<comment><USER3> Citation needed for both your first and second paragraphs :)

As mentioned in my sibling comment [1] there are lots of definitions of dataflow. It's plausible that the model in CTM can be expressed entirely with async/await, but I'd like to see it.

As for the second claim, if it's caught on, then it should be easy to point to code that uses it. Or name some industrial systems that use it. There are some programming models that live only in specific industries but they also tend to leak out into open source over time.

And what programming language do those systems use? Are they using Mozart/Oz or something else? I wasn't aware of any production usage of that language but I could be wrong.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337801](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337801)

<comment><USER5> For data flow in industrial programming look at IEC 1131 which is a major standard. It's a different world and, no, it doesn't seem to leak out to the mainstream despite there being some very interesting solutions to i/o heavy concurrent problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This should be marked as dating from 2009.

There was a discussion of an earlier iteration of the poster on Lambda the Ultimate, where Van Roy defended some of the choices he made.

[http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2410](http://lambda-the- ultimate.org/node/2410)

</comment><comment><USER7> A thread from 2017: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15417338](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15417338)

Two small discussions at the time: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=733041](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=733041)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=578632](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=578632)

(These links are just for the curious; reposts are fine after a year or so.)

</comment><comment> chroem- Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be missing array programming (APL, Matlab, Julia, etc).

<comment><USER8> And I can't see concatenative programming languages. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_lang...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_language)

<comment><USER9> In this poster's classification, "basic" Forth (the data manipulation part without parsing words) to me seems to be "procedure" \+ "cell (state)", i.e., "Imperative programming". This classification is along general semantic lines, not "what syntax do you use to access values". In concatenative languages you use a stack implicitly while in C you use variable names and nested expressions, but this more of a "syntactic" issue than what the poster is concerned with, namely things like "does the language have native closures" which Forth, like C, does not.

Parsing words add a huge amount of metaprogramming power, but this classification doesn't deal with any kind of metaprogramming. That's not a dimension that is included here, and even if it were, it would be debatable if it's _that_ different in Forth from Lisp macros, once you look past syntactic concerns as above. But I could very well be wrong here, I'm not an expert on this part.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I find this diagram less easy to navigate than the simpler categorization of declarative vs imperative with four subcategories:

I.e. Imperative: Procedural, Object-oriented

Declarative: Functional, Logic (or better term for Prolog-esque languages - constraint-based perhaps)

Four simple categories with two meta categories.

</comment><comment><USER11> The article is named for "dummies" but it should be noted that it is much more difficult to read than other for dummies materials.

</comment><comment><USER12> Beautiful. But where is JavaScript? Is multi-paradigmatic, tho

<comment><USER11> The chart is not by language. There are just some languages for example because there are many languages for a single paradigm

<comment><USER13> If JS was added to the chart as an example, where would it land?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Ah yes, the chart that lists Oz and Alice ? under every box</comment>


Instagram Lite Offers Photo Sharing on Android for 1/55th the App Size - <AUTHOR> https://petapixel.com/2018/06/28/instagram-lite-offers-photo-sharing-on-android-for-1-55th-the-app-size/ <comment><USER2> At such a small size, is it just a web view?</comment>


Arduino Uno vs BeagleBone vs Raspberry Pi - <AUTHOR> http://blog.makezine.com/2013/04/15/arduino-uno-vs-beaglebone-vs-raspberry-pi/ <comment><USER2> Personally I think this great stuff. And yes the Beagle Bone black narrows the field significantly.

Tools wise there is hole here that when it gets filled will be pretty impactful, I'm talking about the Arduino concept implemented with the ARM Cortex M4. This is because the costs of the chips are low, but the tool chain support which has been part of the foundation of Arduino's success aren't there yet. Now bits and pieces do exist, if you get Atmel Studio (Makers of the ATMega and SAMx ARM chips) you will see they have a gcc toolchain for ARM that is as self contained as the toolchain for AVR (and by self contained I mean that it is a 'bare bones' tool chain and the resulting binary includes the bits normally supplied by an OS like startup, initialization, and memory management)

The part that is really cool though is that you can build computers out of these things again and they are moving into the space being left behind by Windows/Intel and Apple becoming more application delivery appliances. One risk I see though is that a lot of poor security architected embedded systems are finding their way into the routable Internet. That can be funny when port scanning software turns your lights on or off, but its a risk none the less.

<comment><USER3> There is already an official Arduino ARM Cortex M3 board, the Due: <http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue>

Teensy 3.0 afaik has some degree of support for Arduino IDE too. LeafLabs Maple has Arduino-style IDE too. And finally there is Energia IDE for Stellaris Launchpads.

So I'd say that the "Arduino for ARM" field is already quite contested, and I've probably missed some projects.

<comment><USER4> I think only the teensy and due strive to be fully arduino compatible(to be able to run sketches exactly the same as arduino, versus offering similar looking API).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This must have been written before the announcement of the BeagleBone Black: $45, similar performance profile, HDMI out. Seems very much analogous to the Raspberry Pi.

<http://beagleboard.org/Products/BeagleBone%20Black>

<comment><USER6> Yup, it was written on the 15th when the Black was still a badly kept secret but not openly announced.

I ordered two BeagleBone Blacks from Adafruit yesterday, anxiously awaiting their arrival. I love the emerging competition in this space and I'm happy to see TI (who I've had mostly positive interactions with when needing unofficial hobbyist support, and whose Stellaris and MSP430 ecosystems I love) still catering to this market, and on paper the BeagleBone Black looks really, really good (it would look good for a lot of things even if they kept the old price with the new specs, the new price of basically half the old one is icing on top).

<comment><USER7> I only have one grip with the BB black -- the HDMI out resolution. Maximum of 1280x1024. Which itself isn't so bad, but that (and several other resolutions on it) are geared towards 4/3 monitors instead of 16/10 or 16/9. Which itself I don't mind so much, but there aren't many 4/3 monitors on the market any more.

BTW, anyone have information on the performance of the graphic drivers for this board? Would it be any good for full screen video?

<comment><USER8> there are _tons_ of 4:3 monitors kicking around. Put a want ad on craigslist and you're going to be flooded with them.

<comment><USER7> Actually what I was referring to is a lack of 4:3 monitors in general use. What I'd like to use these small/cheap computer boards for, is if I'm helping someone "fix" their computer, this could be a good stop-gap measure to hook up so they can continue to get Web/email/social networks/etc things done while I'm rebuilding their desktop. Most people I run across either have a VGA CRT monitor, or a 16:9 flatscreen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> There are so many things wrong with the comparison table it's difficult to trust the article. The Uno can run on 5v, not 7-12v; the Pi has shipped with 512MB of RAM for quite some time now, not 256MB; the Pi has 17 GPIOs, not 8. For example. I understand this is for beginners, but honestly…

<comment><USER10> The article is from 2012.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Don't forget $49 <http://cubieboard.org/>

<comment><USER12> ...and MarsBoard (similar to Cubieboard, but also has a dual core version) <http://www.marsboard.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> the new beaglebone(esp. the new one) has two more advantages over the raspberry pi which haven't been mentioned:

1.It can run single precision floating point at 16-24 times faster than the raspberry pi.

2.It has two fast(200MHZ) microcontrollers inside called PRU. Those are great when you want to have stuff running fast , with precise timing. They only work in assembler though.

I think a compiler for them would be useful for the maker crowd.

<comment><USER13> #2 was the reason we used the beaglebone on a project that requires high-rate sampling - the PRU made it possible to what we needed with almost no additional hardware (normally you'd need an extra microcontroller or FPGA)

If/when it gets easier to develop for I think it helps make beaglebone/am335x a really attractive option for a lot of uses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm so glad that affordable, low-power, hackable computers that run full operating systems are finally available. I don't think it's appreciated enough in the maker community what kind of impact this will have.

I'm a software engineer dabbling in electrical engineering. A while ago an EE friend of mine showed me how to use a transistor to power a motor using a GPIO pin on my Raspberry Pi. I was so stoked when it finally worked! I could turn wheels by typing "echo "1" > /sys/class/gpio/gpio4/value" into my ssh session.

Within 10 minutes I was able to churn out a web interface that has two buttons, forward and backward, that you can access from a mobile device to drive around your raspberry pi. I had already hooked up a battery pack and webcam before. Suddenly, within minutes of "making the wheels turn from software", we had a remote controlled robot with a camera! All this is possible on an Arduino (I hear you can actually run Linux on it if you put some effort in), but it'll be much more work. For the Raspberry Pi, I simply popped in an SD card with Debian and installed all my favorite tools.

By all means, I love writing low level C code and fiddling with basic microprocessors. I once hacked a DVR frontpanel into an alarm clock that makes you do arithmetic to stop the alarm. It was super fun. The chip didn't have any memory management and if you weren't careful your stack or heap would overwrite the program in memory. Between that, displaying custom bitmap fonts, correctly addressing the LCD display etc it took about a week to finish the project. On a Raspberry Pi you could do this in one afternoon using any language/tools you like.

<comment><USER15> > I hear you can actually run Linux on it if you put some effort in

Some time ago there was someone who decided to hook a RAM chip up to an 8-bit micro-controller---like one of the ones in the various Arduino models---so that they could run Ubuntu on it. Their write-up ([http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linu...](http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.%20Linux%20on%208bit)) is actually quite interesting, though watching it boot is less so ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Does anyone have experience using the BeagleBone black vs. the Raspberry PI? I'm wondering if the library support for hardware hacking on it is as robust as the PIs?

I'm doing a lot of experimentation on a project to bring a node.js based development model to devices and the BeagleBone's power consumption is really attractive for battery devices.

(If you are interested, you can read more on my experimental project here: <http://bit.ly/115pt9U>)

</comment><comment><USER17> Here's the twist for me: Can I design my own?

I've been reading some books on embedded design or making your own PCBs and they had tutorials in eagle.

I took digital electronics courses and...is doing a schematic really as easy now for SoC design as it was for putting TTL chips on a breadboard? There's the routing that needs to be done, and I am SO SERIOUS about doing this, I will buy the full version of Eagle (Orcad is $10,000 or so).

I still feel like I don't know what to do, though.

<comment><USER18> Sure. Modern SoCs are so integrated that its really just wiring up IO and maybe some flash RAM. A good place to start are the Atmel AT91SAM line of chips.

<comment><USER19> It's a lot more difficult than that. Perhaps designing a board around a low- speed microcontroller is easier for beginners but definitely _not_ a modern SoC. One of the reasons is because most of these SoCs come in highly dense BGA (ball-grid array) packages and usually this means you'll need more layers to route traces on your board, which introduces more complexity. Another reason, perhaps the most important, is that there are a lot more pitfalls in designing high speed PCBs. Unfortunately, I do not know much more about this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Seems like a good place to ask:

I have good programming skills, but I know almost nothing about micro controllers. What would be a good place to learn more about these things, and what you can build with them? Would prefer something which teaches more about the electronics/hardware part than the programming one.

<comment><USER6> The Raspberry Pi and BeagleBone are full-blown computers. They run Linux and everything you know about Linux/Unix (if anything?) carries over, but then on top of that they have a bunch of GPIO pins to which to can attach lots of different electronic components like LED displays, accelerometers, motors, etc, to build basically anything (robots, little dashboard computers, whatever).

The Arduino is a different beast, you can't run Linux on it, it is a low- powered (by both meanings of the phrase) microcontroller meant to write real- time code which does most of the same things you'd use GPIO for on those other devices, it just happens to be better at controlling some things (like PWM- controlled devices) because you get more predictable timing because it isn't a full computer running a full multitasking OS).

Each of these devices have their own little communities, google "(product) forum" like "raspberry pi forum" to find good starting points for each device. The Adafruit learning system at <http://learn.adafruit.com/> is a good place to get tutorials for lots of these kinds of devices (Arduino is heavily represented because it is the oldest, cheapest, and probably still most widely used of these platforms for creating custom hobby projects, but they have tutorials for just about everything).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Has anyone tried using a beaglebone as a router? I was considering getting one and using a USB Ethernet to add a second interface.

An aside - are there any arm boards with dual Ethernet? Are there any with gigabit Ethernet? Could they theoretically even keep up with 2 gigabit ports?

<comment><USER22> I have a bunch of these Linux ARM boards including the original beaglebone, rpi, pcduino, ODROID-X2 and a few others. Most of these have less than stellar IO and almost all are 10/100 only. The i.MX6-based Sabre Lite has gigE, although perf maxes out much lower. Here's lots of details: <http://boundarydevices.com/i-mx6-ethernet/> \- it can't get close to maxing out a single, much less two ports.

If you are looking for something exclusively to do routing, you really should take a look at dedicated hardware from guys like Mikrotik <http://routerboard.com/> or Ubiquiti [http://dl.ubnt.com/Tolly212128UbiquitiEdgeRouterLitePricePer...](http://dl.ubnt.com/Tolly212128UbiquitiEdgeRouterLitePricePerformanceVsMikroTik.pdf) \- they're actually cheaper than the Sabre Lite and perform much, much better. They're also pretty open/hackable to boot.

<comment><USER21> Thanks for these links. I ended up grabbing a routerboard 450G because they look like a really nice piece of kit. Probably overkill for playing around with routing, but I couldn't help myself.

<comment><USER22> Cool, the Mikrotiks are perfect for getting into routing as the RouterOS docs are very in-depth w/ lots of examples (yay, wikis): <http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:TOC>

You can install OpenWRT to compare although it looks like installation is a slight pain: <http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/mikrotik/rb450g> \- it's probably easier to install as a metarouter if you're just playing w/ it: <http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Metarouter>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I feel like I've fallen behind. I loved my beagleboard, opted out of the pandaboard, and was never interested in the raspberry pi.

Beaglebone's a little cheaper, but I'm not sure what it's allure is supposed to be (The $88 version)?

The new beaglebone looks like an inexpensive and tempting nettop replacement.

</comment><comment><USER24> Also: Udoo

[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/435742530/udoo- android-l...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/435742530/udoo-android- linux-arduino-in-a-tiny-single-board)

Freescale i.MX6 Cortex A9 and Atmel SAM3X8E ARM Cortex M3 on the same board!

</comment><comment><USER25> Minor point but the Raspberry Pi model B has come with 512MB RAM for a while now. The original model B was 256 but they upgraded some time before I got mine (which was in January).

</comment><comment><USER26> These look great. What are folks doing with them? Is there a separate sensor plugin market where I can shop for ideas?

<comment><USER27> A couple of popular hobby type websites are Sparkfun (<https://www.sparkfun.com/>) and Adafruit (<http://adafruit.com/>). You can obviously also buy sensors from places like Mouser or Digikey, but you'll have to do a fair bit of digging through datasheets. The nice thing about Sparkfun and Adafruit is they publish plenty of tutorials for getting stuff running with Arduino or Raspberry Pi.</comment></comment>


A collection of disassembled and commented source of parts of MS-DOS 1.0 - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/mist64/msdos1

<comment><USER2> DOS looks trivial to me these days. I kick myself for not going into business making a workalike clone back then.

On a related note, I've kept most of my old machines, except (sadly) my H11. They're just piled up in the basement. Last year I wondered what I had on those old drives, and tried to turn on the computers. None of them would boot. One made a popping sound and smoke came out.

My next attempt was to read the hard drives. My 286 drive wouldn't fit anything modern. The oldest drive I could hook up was in the 486 box, and had to try plugging it into many machines before the old IDE drive was recognized. I was anxious to see what was on it.

Like opening old safes, turns out there was nothing much on it. I was surprised at how simple my old programs were, and how small.

</comment><comment><USER3> Why disassemble when the original source code is available? [http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/microsoft-ms-dos- early-...](http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/microsoft-ms-dos-early-source- code/)

<comment><USER4> It is a tremendously giving exercise. I practically learned programming doing that. Disassembling an entire MSDOS like operating system and then amending it with print spooling, RAM disk, and the ability to run two tasks simultaneously on special RAM bank switching hardware a.o. (But then we realised that the PC with MSDOS would win and went on doing other more specialised things.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you're interested in this kind of stuff, be sure to check the author's (Michael Steil) blog: [http://www.pagetable.com/](http://www.pagetable.com/) \- he has written all kinds of juicy blog posts about low level programming.

</comment><comment><USER6> PC-DOS 1.0.</comment>


Why hire a head of sales?: from Andreessen Horowitz blog - <AUTHOR> https://a16z.com/2017/05/26/hiring-sales-why-what/ <comment><USER2> This is a lot of words about a simple question. The author is making it seem like there are "10x heads of sales" out there when there quite simply aren't (unless you are hiring former congressmen as lobbyists, which isn't what he's talking about).

To sum this article up:

1) Let your product "infect" an organization at the end user level because it's useful and free.

2) Hire a head of sales to schmooze/strongarm the CIO of that organization to pay for all of the "FULL FEATURES (TM)" that you sell, such as security and compliance and consulting.

3) Try to make this head of sales hire a non-engineer because the only way to extract additional money from this old-school sales process is to wine and dine and play golf and speak in weird dialects about "synergies" and "total cost of ownership".</comment>