Why I stopped being a voluntourist  - <AUTHOR> http://pippabiddle.com/2014/02/18/the-problem-with-little-white-girls-and-boys/ <comment><USER3> I took a trip to Africa to go on a Safari and climb Kilimanjaro. I was amazed at how many do gooder tourists there are.

The conversations go like:

Me: What are you here to do?

Them: Build a school.

Me: Oh, you are a carpenter.

Them: No, part of a school program.

Me: Oh, you are providing unskilled construction labor. Didn't realize Tanzania had a shortage.

Near the end of the trip, I met a friend's cousin, asked what she was doing, and she was going from village to village verifying that chlorination systems in NGO built wells were working. I was impressed. I asked how she got that gig, and she told me a story about her going to Tanzania to build a school. She decided to make a real difference.

Her story changed my attitude. I am certainly less snarky about kids going to do unskilled construction labor.

<comment><USER4> _I am certainly less snarky about kids going to do unskilled construction labor._

Most middle-class Americans could find a neighborhood within 15-minutes drive that could really use their help. But "my adventures in East Palo Alto" just isn't as exciting on a law school application, or a date, as "tales of Eritrea."

<comment><USER5> > But "my adventures in East Palo Alto" just isn't as exciting on a law school > application

You're wrong on that one. Talking about volunteering every weekend in East Palo Alto will get you a lot further on a law school application than your essay on a week in Africa. Admissions staff aren't stupid. Strong commitment to local activism is valued much more than paying large sums of money to travel halfway around the world on a glorified vacatiion.

<comment><USER6> I agree with this comment.

While I have no idea about Law School applications and what will help you getting in, I do know that as the leader of the volunteering club in high school and spending four years helping in the community was a lot more interesting in college interviews than other things I had on there.

However the opportunity I took in college to go to Africa (North Western Zambia) to build a data entry system and the back end database to digitalize the records of a hospital tended to get a lot more attention when looking for jobs than any of my more relevant internships did.

When I read these articles like the main link I feel happier about what I did. I finished pretty quickly and then spent time training but the majority of the time after the database was built was doing whatever else was needed but my inability to do a lot of the things well they seemed to tolerate with such kindness since what I was good at was already completed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The main point the article is making, that not all volunteers are providing a net positive, is an interesting one.

I have a problem with her position, though. She ends the article with: "Be smart about traveling and strive to be informed and culturally aware. It's only through an understanding of the problems communities are facing, and the continued development of skills within that community, that long-term solutions will be created."

The problem is that it's hard to be culturally aware and to understand the problems communities are facing if you aren't exposing yourself first hand to those communities. I imagine quite a many useful volunteers, the author included, started off as "voluntourists". And perhaps therein lies the greatest strength of these programs - they help expose little white girls (and boys) to other cultures and problems they otherwise would be unaware of and some percentage of those move on to more useful volunteering.

If she is going to advocate the position she's taken, then she could at least end the article with some alternatives for would be volunteers. As is, if anything, she's just alleviating some of the guilt people might feel over not volunteering: "By volunteering I would be causing more harm than good, so the right thing to do is nothing."

<comment><USER8> > _The main point the article is making, that not all volunteers are providing > a net positive, is an interesting one._

> _" By volunteering I would be causing more harm than good, so the right > thing to do is nothing."_

The right thing to do, as she actually points out in passing in the first part of the article, would be to do what you're good at and send the money to a competent organization.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/65/money_the_unit_of_caring/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/65/money_the_unit_of_caring/)

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_separately/)

I remember the Red Cross writing something similar, that basically boiled down to "please stop sending us supply, give us money instead - by sending items you're making our logistics much, much more complicated and deprive the economy of people who need our aid from the money that we'd introduce if we bought stuff locally".

<comment><USER9> Less Wrong also published an article arguing the option of:

>choosing a career with high direct social value than by choosing a lucrative career with a view toward donating as much as possible.

That would cover skilled volunteering efforts.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/hjn/earning_to_give_vs_altruistic_ca...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/hjn/earning_to_give_vs_altruistic_career_choice/)

<comment><USER8> Haven't read that before; thanks for the link!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you want to do voluntourism, I suggest something different: start a business or help set up an outsourcing center.

You'll definitely have a positive effect on people by teaching them about western business practices. I'm told by my former coworkers that my standard US egalitarianism was quite unusual. By "egalitarianism", I simply mean "I'm CTO, you are a mechanical turk, we can go eat pancakes and you aren't obligated to make me tea". So were my efforts to ensure that everyone was growing in their career. My feminist sensibilities ("so be late, tell your husband to make dinner") were also a bit scandalous [1].

I came back to India a month ago to attend the wedding of someone I worked with, and I was very surprised to hear all that. I don't know whether to be happy (I made things better) or unhappy (because their next job won't be so good) about it.

By building a good business and maybe destroying some bad local ones, you'll do far more good than you will by doing unskilled construction labor. And very importantly, the people who work for you will learn that western style management is a great way to make money.

[1] By US standards I'm one of those evil misogynists who thinks statistical disparities are irrelevant and discrimination is a testable hypothesis and market opportunity. But drop me in India and I'm suddenly a crazy feminist ranting against rape culture (FYI India has one, the US doesn't).

<comment><USER11> "You'll definitely have a positive effect on people by teaching them about western business practices."

This is the most ethnocentric thing I've read in quite a long time. Much of the world would be better off, in my opinion, having never learned first hand about western business practices. Western business practices have caused a vast amount of destruction in the developing world.

<comment><USER10> Treating low skill commodity workers as human beings on the same social level as yourself is such a destructive western practice. So is hiring a stranger with a great github rather than your brother in law, hiring a woman if she is the most qualified, etc. Or there is that destructive western practice of managing by output - the boss is working until 8pm but you can go home as soon as you hit your quota.

Blaming westernized companies (by which I mean both western companies and local companies like Reliance/Infosys that try to run things in the modern manner) for the problems of the third world is silly.

All they've done is caused you to learn a little bit about other countries and made you feel guilty that things are a lot worse elsewhere. China would be poor even if your iPhone was proudly made in CA by illegal immigrants (yay for Nationalist Apparel), it would just be easier for you to ignore.

<comment><USER12> China is the second largest single country economy on earth and growing. They will be completely covered with healthcare in the next 10 years. They are the largest holders of gold on earth, hold the largest amount of debt from the US. They are developing, but as a nation, they are not poor.

> Blaming westernized companies (by which I mean both western companies and > local companies like Reliance/Infosys that try to run things in the modern > manner) for the problems of the third world is silly.

It is perhaps a bit silly. I mean, there are actual examples of mining rights being held from colonial times, Dutch East India company, Haiti being forced to pay for slaves freedom from rebellion for 140 years etc. and some of those do still have influences, but I don't think they are the primary ones. I don't, however, think all of these values are always exclusively western though. Japan has worker rights, as far as I can tell from a cursory glance on Wikipedia.

Assuming India wants, or needs foreign influence, Japan is just as good a place to get it.

<comment><USER13> Are you seriously using the most westernised Asian country as an example of non western business practices?

<comment><USER12> I was just picking a country that seemed to me to be as good a country as any, with their own methods of law, their own values etc. who has remained productive as a nation.

I think I may be learning I might not have the same definition of "western" as some people. I had always imagined Western as referring to Western Europe and the US but now I think there is a colloquial phrasing that uses western as a synonym for modern. If that is the case I think this next century is about to get really confusing...

<comment><USER13> Western as in "white people showed up and ran everything". (like singapore, or Hong Kong)

Japan before WWII but after the West showed up, based it's whole economy and work system on Germany, after WWII it was essentially run by the US. They are completely "Western" (as in white people) when it comes to their way of business and economy.

<comment> barry-cotter I think you need to google salaryman. There is nothing equivalent in any Western country, not in scope, extent, social significance, prevalence. Nothing. It may be unique to Japan. The "Organization Man" was as close as the West ever got and it's been a long time since most professional business people worked like that, if they ever did.

<comment><USER13> Nothing equivalent to someone who works for a salary, does overtime, but isn't overly passionate about there life... yep that's unique to japan... what was I thinking.

/s

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> A few years ago, I volunteered in SE Asia for 18 months using my electrical engineering skills to help rural villages get access to electricity. At the time, I'd been working professionally for around 7 years and was just becoming competent at working independently. Although I'd gotten my PE status a year earlier, I can't say that I was at a senior engineering / consultant level.

So it was a surprise for me to find that I was one of the most experienced and skilled engineers in my organization (and in many other energy-related organizations for that matter). I concur with the OP and have met quite a few western volunteers that were well-intentioned, but generally had no technical skills.

Of those who had qualifications, they were usually in the social sciences, development studies, media / communications, public relations, etc. Useful skills no doubt, but I felt that the country could have benefited more with direct assistance from the hard sciences and engineering, e.g. hydrology, agriculture, civil engineers, etc - those skills were always in demand. In the end, there's a reason why development is often done so badly - <USER2> practically let anyone do it.

</comment><comment><USER15> Most Peace Corps type voluntourism works on the premise that throwing "white" folks into a country and telling them to fix things will generate results. This is because, you know, we understand the incredibly complex social, economic, political, and cultural dynamics of countries better than they know themselves.

We're better educated, and if these backwards countries would just start doing XYZ they'd start to lift themselves up and out of poverty. You know, things like alternative livelihood by making souvenirs out of trash. That's the ticket.

But we don't understand the issues and aren't equipped to be able to even determine what a particular region of the country actually needs, especially not in 2 years or less.

Real results can only come from funded research into what the underlying issues are and how best to combat them. Also, if the United States weren't so economically oppressive.

I disagree however, with the notion that being "white" is a hindrance in the developing world. Being "white" is an advantage everywhere.

<comment><USER16> I've met people who did Peace Corps, and my opinion was much better after meeting them. First they actually became fluent in the local language. Second their focus was often more on enabling locals than on trying to do stuff themselves. For example, they would work with locals on how to push through applications for grant money from developed countries. Dealing with American foreign aid bureaucracy was actually a skill they were well suited for due to their background and education. Finally, they lived on almost no money in the community for a long period of time. The standard of their living was commensurate with the average person in the host community.

<comment><USER15> Personal development is fine and yes, the Peace Corps is incredible for that, but only one thing you mentioned is beneficial to the host country: money.

If pushing through grant money is the volunteer's primary talent, they can just as easily do so without spending all that useful money on plane tickets and training.

The other issue is that money by itself doesn't solve problems. You have to use it to solve real issues. But the Peace Corps doesn't fund research into what the issues are, because that's expensive and unsexy to anyone touting what the volunteers are up to. So you get grants to fund construction of libraries when everyone in the country can already go to an Internet cafe and read Wikipedia.

<comment><USER17> > _you get grants to fund construction of libraries when everyone in the > country can already go to an Internet cafe and read Wikipedia_ //

Everyone?

Perhaps you misunderstand what a modern library is - it's a place for accessing information, not limited to books. Most likely it's effectively a free internet cafe or an information centre for a particular school.

Mind you I've seen government funded medical centres without even beds (well mattresses, they had the frames) - so the chances of the information resources turning up and staying put are perhaps slim.

<comment><USER18> Libraries are also community centers. They offer a lot more than just books. They can offer community programs, children's programs, and assistance on a lot of matters from librarians. They also can offer plenty of fiction that is copyrighted and not on the Internet (legally). Internet cafes are expensive, libraries are completely free. They are also a meeting place for the community and a sense of pride. For some reason they get a bad rap here on HN and in the tech world in general.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Living in Indonesia for two years has changed my perspective quite a bit. One of the big things about American culture I now regard as totally odious is the idea that everyone wants to be like us and therefore if we remake the world in our image we are doing everyone a favor. Most of the world doesn't want to be exactly like us -- they like some things about us and dislike other things, and what we like about ourselves may not bear any relation to that.

Societies are homeostatic, equilibrium-seeking systems. If they weren't they'd fall apart under the sorts of stresses that life places on us wherever we live. Foreigners coming in to believe they are making a difference inevitably solve the wrong problems and likely solve them badly.

Now, my parents took some boarding school students to help build medical clinics (under the direction of "Where there Is No Doctor" author David Werner) in the mountains of Mexico back before I was born. They were providing unskilled labor in an area that really did have a shortage (because most people were working in the farms). The upshot though wasn't that the clinics got built faster (they might not have) but that my father got interested in medicine and changed careers from being a math teacher to being a doctor. I have never heard my parents talk about what a difference the students made, or even so much about whatever difference they made.

But having talked with David about this he told me about some of his failures, about how they had this big anti-folk-medicine campaign that they hoped would reduce infant mortality due to diarrhea but then when the floods came, people wouldn't use their folk medicine anymore and the mortality rates went up instead of down and he said they had to go back and reposition what they were offering as one remedy among many.

Often we forget that the people closest to a problem are the best prepared to solve it, and we forget to trust them on this. It is far too often the case that the do-gooders and the activists who haven't yet learned this lesson, solve the wrong problems, often badly, and make things worse.

</comment><comment><USER20> If you really want to help people, find a charity to donate to via Givewell. It won't feel as warm and fuzzy as volunteering, but in most cases that's the best way you can actually help people in need.

<comment><USER21> I'm using kiva.org and have deposited $9,000 over couple of years. With auto- relend option my account circulated currently $58,325 through 2,268 loans (individuals or groups) in 61 countries.

[http://www.kiva.org/lender/kizaemon](http://www.kiva.org/lender/kizaemon)

For auto-relend I chose all countries except US, both genders. The sectors are Agriculture, Clothing, Education, Food, Health, Manufacturing, Retail. Have not chosen sectors Arts, Construction, Entertainment, Housing, Personal Use, Services, Transportation, Wholesale, as I do not feel these are basic enough.

<comment><USER22> FYI, kiva is a scam (in as much as the company is incompetent) that primarily props up predatory lenders in other countries

<comment><USER23> Great. Now here's the question. What's better, having loans available at high interest, or having no loans available at all?

I'll go with the former.

<comment><USER22> It's not clear that the presence or absence of kiva affects the calculus at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Articles and blog posts like this disappoint and annoy me. They lack logic and intellectual depth.

I sincerely hope young Americans/westerners don't get discouraged by reading such nonsense.

The problem described here is a combination of naivety and misallocation of skills and resources. It has nothing to do with being white and yet this lady can't seem to get away from that.

I'm South Asian and I would have faced the exact same problems this lady faced had I volunteered in the places and organizations she did. However being older and perhaps wiser, I wouldn't have made the error of volunteering to do things I have no skill in. Thats the only mistake she made and the problems she mentioned are easily fixed with a little common sense. Yet somehow she can't see that

I wonder where this silliness comes from - could it be the result of the modern American education system ?

Before closing I should mention I would likely never have been born had it not been for a bunch of young European women who saved my orphaned grandmother from certain starvation and neglect when she was a toddler. They gave her a home, an excellent education and looked afer her till she was a young woman. Their actions helped my grandmother get the skills she later used to pull her family out of poverty (resulting from the Partition of India) into the upper middle class.

Thank heavens for those dedicated, young, white voluntourists.

<comment><USER25> _Thank heavens for those dedicated, young, white voluntarists._

The point is they were _not_ "voluntourists", they really did sacrifice to help your grandmother - as opposed to showing up, getting in the way while doing a few trivial things for a week or so, playing much of the time, and otherwise squandering money which would have been better just sent to the orphanage outright.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> White people are finally starting to "get it". [http://youtu.be/dyf2Cf5GkTY](http://youtu.be/dyf2Cf5GkTY) See Dambisa Moyo's interview about her book "Dead Aid" The statistics showing how aid is actually hurting African countries and not allowing them to develop on their own the way the rest of the world has.

<comment><USER27> Bill Gates fights incredibly hard to try to prove that aid is incredibly effective and considers this a "myth" to be dispelled. What do you think about the concept?

<comment><USER28> Except that Bill Gates isn't going around building furniture himself. More like donating a small part of money for purposes like that, and a big part of money for science and technology which can help eradicate bigger problems(like disease and hunger).

<comment><USER29> Philanthropy he couldn't extend to market competitors, but which he can extend to the poorest of the world? Why, that's hypocritical!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> The choice isn't giving $3000 to be a voluntourist, and give $3000 to a charity to hire locals to do the work. The other choice is to go to Europe and blow $3000 having a good time.

<comment><USER31> Exactly this, voluntourism is an exchange of money for time spent experiencing a very different culture which you can tell other people about for a long time and also feel good while telling stories to kids or laying bricks. Oh and a week long safari according to the article.

There is very little that is altruistic about the practice and an altruistic option is not an option for most people who go on these trips. I don't know what cut of the $3000 the school in the article got, but if it wasn't enough then I'm sure they wouldn't invite a load of useless white kids around to set their construction back.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> 1\. Race had nothing to do with the point of her story. She threw it in there to sound edgy.

2\. These programs are as much if not more about affecting the life of the volunteer. Her realization that she thought way too much of her value wouldn't have happened without going there and having the experiences.

3\. I know people who are extremely effective in what they do in underdeveloped countries. Her pride brought her to the wrong conclusion about where she was at the beginning of the experience. It's unfortunate that her pride is still in effect, misleading her about the capabilities of others.

</comment><comment><USER33> >It slows down positive growth and perpetuates the "white savior" complex that, for hundreds of years, has haunted both the countries we are trying to 'save' and our (more recently) own psyches.

Why does this have anything to do with race? Is it any different for a black person with no useful skills to go on one of these voluntourism trips?

<comment><USER34> No, as the article explicitly points out.

<comment><USER33> Then why does the author end the article by talking about the "white savior" complex, and why is the article titled "The problem with little white girls"?

<comment><USER35> To the Tanzanians, all Americans are white, regardless of pigmentation. According to the article.

<comment><USER36> To be fair, American blacks run significantly lighter than African blacks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> About the brick laying, I'm told that you usually do that poorly if you have no experience (unlike activities like making sawhorses etc. which require little skill). Our local Habitat chapter has experts come in for brick-laying.

In the end, 'voluntourists' are just trying to give what they think they're able to. If they aren't net negatives, I see it as a good thing because they will spend money there, they will bring attention to whatever cause, and other such things. When they're a net negative, though, perhaps it's not such a good idea. It's nice that you want to help, but sometimes what you have to offer isn't what they need.

<comment><USER38> >About the brick laying, I'm told that you usually do that poorly if you have no experience (unlike activities like making sawhorses etc. which require little skill).

As a former bricklayer, i'll confirm it, unskilled labor shouldn't lay bricks, it will fail at some point.

<comment><USER18> My parents have a fireplace in the back yard. It has completely collapsed once. My (presumably unskilled in brick laying) dad rebuilt it but now it is falling apart again. I'm guessing the original builder wasn't skilled in brick laying either.

Thanks for the info, I always wondered why that fireplace wasn't staying up.

<comment><USER38> Beyond structural issues, these types of fireplaces shouldn't be built using normal bricks, they aren't exactly safe. ( the bricks can explode under certain conditions )

There's also a special type of brick and cement that is required for the inner layer of the fireplace.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_brick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_brick)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> This is the reason why groups like Doctors Without Borders (Médecins Sans Frontiéres) exist. If you want to help sick people, do it with MSF.

There's also Engineers without Borders, but I recently discovered it's not actually about helping with construction work, more like teaching about engineering logistics/principles. Still, point is it's done by engineering students who should know what they're talking about.

In fact there are a whole load of 'Without Borders' groups: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Without_Borders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Without_Borders)

</comment><comment><USER40> There's a book I'm just beginning, When Helping Hurts[1], that dives into this subject deeper. Complicated for sure.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate- Yourself/...](http://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate- Yourself/dp/0802457061)

</comment><comment><USER41> I have volunteered regularly to run children's summer English camps in rural China. The point of these camps is mostly to give the kids an opportunity to have fun and learn some English while they're at it, because such nice opportunities simply don't exist where they are. Camp counselors in North America for summer camps don't go through extensive counseling training either. The bar for such volunteer activity is lower, but the bar should be much higher in other cases. Here are some things I've learned about non-profit organizations that are well-run.

Firstly, well-run organizations want to maximize their ROI. The volunteers usually fundraise for donations or pay out of their own pocket to go on these trips. Essentially, these funds are revenue for the organization. That revenue must then be invested into their business, as their purpose is not to make a profit (hence non-profit), but rather, accomplish their goals to make the world a better place in their specific way. As such, a good organization will get tourists who are qualified to do the work that needs to be done.

The organization with whom I volunteer has multiple programs in medicine, agriculture, construction, education, and local skills training (for local professionals for the above categories). They ensure that the people who are volunteering are qualified to do their work. For example, for my most recent excursion, I couldn't stay the entire camp, so they asked me to run some sessions with local teachers instead, since I had so much experience volunteering to teach their kids. I prepared some lessons and explained to the teachers that I was not a professional teacher like they were, and that my teaching wisdom and experience only consisted of basic theory and volunteer experience. I made it clear that I was not qualified to teach them about teaching. Instead, I focused on professional skills that I brought over from the corporate world. We had sessions on conflict resolution and negotiation tactics using concepts developed by Max Bazerman at Harvard, the Behavioral Change Stairway Model at the FBI, and discussions about conflicting cultural worldviews and personalities, the basics of which are taught in many corporate seminars. I also focused on leadership styles, motivation tactics, and decision-making strategies. My sessions were very well-received and I received lots of thanks from the teachers, as well as a round of applause at the end of my time there.

This organization never asked me to do anything like surgery, building repair, etc. They did ask me to help out with some computer stuff now and then. For their medicine, agriculture, and construction programs, they made sure to bring in only qualified people. Full stop. The organization had a relationship with the local government and had gained respect of the local government because they did things properly. That's the way it should be. When you're a non-profit, don't do anything that will waste the scarce dollars you have been given.

Secondly, it's true that your impact in these countries is small. But it's like the story of the kid who saved the one starfish. The man comes along and asks the boy why he saved that starfish, what difference does it make in the face of so many starfish dying on the beach? The boy thinks and says, "Well, it made a difference for that one." I still keep in touch with the kids I've taught. The Internet is wonderful today and makes this easier than ever, except in those locations where the situation is so dire that you take Bill Gates's attitude of choosing to fight the malaria over getting the Internet up and running. Overall, I know that the kids are impacted on an individual basis because they keep in touch with me, still call me Teacher, and talk with me about things. The people in these communities appreciate that someone took their time and money to go and help them, if what was provided was helpful. Again, that goes back to the organization making sure that the money and effort is being spent in a way that maximizes ROI. It's the same in business. You don't tell a recruiter to do the bookkeeping, you get a bookkeeper or accountant for that. It just makes sense.

Thirdly, these trips have value in that they work as vision trips. A percentage of volunteers will go on these trips and have their eyes open and their thinking changed in such a way that their life goals change. Those people are the ones who will go into this work full-time and throw away the nice cushy jobs in the first world. Those people are also often the ones who can afford to do it because they've been working nice cushy jobs in the first world for a while, so they have the savings to make it happen for some time until outside donations can take over in terms of funding everything. If these trips don't happen, a huge recruiting channel for these organizations for long-term workers completely disappears. These organizations prefer that these trips be available for people from every generation because you don't know where you'll find the people who will have the switch turned on inside themselves, and you don't know which people will have which kinds of support networks that would be willing to help fund this lifestyle. This third factor is possibly the most important reason why these trips are a good thing.

The goal to have a locally-run operation staffed by locals is an important one. But it takes time to get there, and these trips are a part of the process to get there.

edit: clarification

<comment><USER42> I lived in short-term accommodation in Cape Town, South Africa for just over two years. The vast majority of my housemates were wealthy European girls "volunteering" or on an "internship" in "Africa", between 1-3 months at a time.

While none of them were bad people, in reality, it was a holiday for the majority of them. They were too young to have any real life skills or lessons to share or communicate. Those that did were simply not around for long enough to have any real impact. They all spent more time and money on sight-seeing, partying and South Africa's beaches than anything else.

This was an acceptable relationship for the organisations concerned because they were receiving money, but nobody had any illusions about whether there was meant to be a more productive relationship. The reality is, in these cases, it would have been more productive to just donate the money for the plane ticket, bars and sight-seeing directly to the organisation - but why would somebody do that when they can get a story to tell, and make themselves sound like mini-Mother Theresas? Let's face it, it's harder trying to get people to give you money if you give them nothing in return.

As I see it, the author of the article appears to be challenging people to ask themselves if they fit in the category you fall into (somebody with something to _really_ offer), or the category I've described (somebody who naively thinks they can help; or somebody effectively going on holiday to an impoverished area in such a way that makes them feels less guilty about being rich while giving them a moral-superiority card to play when they're back home) - because there is a real social cost to this latter sort of self- serving volunteering.

<comment><USER41> Thinking about it, I see now that OP is focusing on the quality of the volunteer, while I am focusing on the quality of the organization. Perhaps OP and I are simply not even on the same page for commentary then, though we appear to be in the same book.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> k-mcgrady Good article but why did she have to bring race into it? This had absolutely nothing to do with race. The problem was that unskilled people were volunteering to do skilled work. They should be volunteering to do work they have the skills for.

</comment><comment><USER43> >It slows down positive growth

If we ignore race, this model of 'aid' (at this particular stage of development) seems to hinder growth and can not lead to self-sustained communities. Think about this: I could teach somebody how to plant seeds and provide for a whole village, which will eventually lead to a better economy, or I could just buy everybody lunch for a week and wait for somebody else to do the same after me. The latter (which happens in a lot of these programs) is simply interfering with their progress by taking away jobs from the community, which would made progress had you not interfered.

The better solution is guiding and teaching nations how to improve and there are plenty of organizations that do this and have a much more positive effect. Why can't these nations develop like other nations (in similar climates) have done in the past? Nothing wrong with a helping hand but charity like this isn't a long-term solution.

</comment><comment><USER44> This has some good points, but it seems (from my experience) that this applies to some degree to a lot of nonprofits. The volunteers actual contribution is minimal, but the nonprofits allow and even encourage it, because it encourages engagement and donations by the volunteers.

</comment><comment><USER45> I thought there would surely be reference to this Onion article:

[http://www.theonion.com/articles/6day-visit-to-rural- african...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/6day-visit-to-rural-african- village-completely-cha,35083/)

</comment><comment><USER46> I don't remember where I read it, but someone famous once said "for most people the best way to do good is to make a lot of money and then give it away" (or something to that effect). I couldn't agree more.

<comment><USER47> If by "do good" you mean "give money to whoever has their hand stuck out the furthest."

Those aren't necessarily people in need who will use the money for some good purpose, often they are in a special parasitic class of professional beggars and con artists.

Hopefully the point is to do more than show off that you are rich and generous.

<comment><USER48> I assume he means donating to worthy charities rather than actually putting money in people's hands.

<comment><USER18> Perhaps putting money is people's hands is what is needed?

[http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/08/23/214210692/the- char...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/08/23/214210692/the-charity-that- just-gives-money-to-poor-people)

<comment><USER8> Still, it is helpful to have someone, whose job is to discriminate between the "special parasitic class of professional beggars and con artists" and people actually in need.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> I have seen, heard of and have been invited to participate in these trips. Some are NGOs, some are religious groups.

Yeah, looking at it from the perspective she wrote, it seems ridiculous. It is an "industry", wrapped in a non-profit, save-the-world PR shroud, that caters to educated, Westerners who can afford to travel overseas. People feel good when they do good. Whether they other side perceives it as good, sometimes it is not clear.

One can ask, is it better if these "unskilled" people never left home? Maybe even with all the seeming waste and incompetence, it keeps people engaged. I suspect most of them would not have just taken the money for that plane ticket, and handed that check to a NGO that knows better how to spend it, and could build 10 libraries for all that money. But I am afraid it is either "send the volunteers and keep them engaged somehow" vs "don't send the volunteers at all and say goodbye to that money and resources".

People like to help others, people like to tell stories, like to have adventures. These trips cater to that aspect. Do people in Africa feel better knowing that foreigners want to come in and at least try to slap a brick on top of another even if they don't know how? I see a lot of criticism of this here, and rationally I agree, but I also feel there is a bit more too it and I personally am on the fence whether this is good thing or not.

<comment><USER50> The OP suggests that their presence is actually detrimental, not just useless.

If so, then, yes, it would be better for them just to stay home, even though only a fraction of the money that people would have spent on their own trips will be donated outright.

It seems likely to me.

It is comfortable and positive to think along the lines of "If even one Westerner gets more engaged, it's a success!" but why would Westerner 'engagement' be the metric of success? It's not about the Westerners.

> Do people in Africa feel better knowing that foreigners want to come in and > at least try to slap a brick on top of another even if they don't know how?

The answer to this isn't really unknown or unknowable: No, hardly anyone feels that way. Why would you feel better because a foreigner is coming and fucking shit up while you have to pretend you believe they're helping because they have so much more power than you?

<comment><USER49> > The OP suggests that their presence is actually detrimental, not just > useless.

Yeah I read that and I don't 100% agree, still mostly agree but maybe just 80%.

> "If even one Westerner gets more engaged, it's a success!

Not a success but better overall maybe if they just stayed home.

> It's not about the Westerners.

That is the big problem, and I think I talk about it as well (kind of snarky) how it is an industry that caters to Westerner's needs. However I am not convinced yet that not engaging them and not bothering is yet better.

> but why would Westerner 'engagement' be the metric of success?

It isn't the only metric of success. But even if it is, the answer could simply be because they have more resources and money to help in the future. Maybe 50 out 100 will end up being hippies living in the van down by the river, smoking pot and telling cool travel to Africa stories. But maybe 10 will actually come back and do something more positive next time.

It is also not black and white. Either come and "fuck shit up" as you put it or "come and rescue the country completely from disaster". There is a lot of in-between.

There are groups of skilled professional, namely doctors that go on specific missions to do one specific thing -- fix cleft palates, do eye exams and so on. Do they do more damage? Quite the opposite. There is a lot of in between. Sometimes there are skilled local professionals and they do work together. Sometimes money comes with the silly unskilled white college kid labor and well maybe the white college kids get to play soccer with the village kids while the local skilled labor build the schools.

> Why would you feel better because a foreigner is coming and fucking shit up

Well I do have a story for you. I grew up on a country were American volunteers also felt the need to come and "teach us" and "work with us". Nowhere near the situation in Africa. Nevertheless, I remember kids in our school chasing down Americans just to look at them as if they were from Mars or something. Rumors were how they distributed chewing gum and candy. I never got the candy I was too shy. Well now I live here in US, can buy tons of candy, and looking back, it just feels so stupid to do that. But I am glad they came and didn't just stay home. At worst, it was worth for a nice lifetime feel good moment for 10 year old boy.

<comment><USER25> Yes, there is a lot of in-between.

There's also a big difference based on which side of the "no effect" zero point you're on. At least be marginally useful; if not, stay home.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> The number one way to help people in the 3rd world is find hungry competent entrepreneurs in the country and ask them about their problems.

<comment><USER12> This sounds like a great approach to the problem but how would one go about finding those people? Were you thinking SME level or street vendor level?

<comment><USER25> Sounds like step one: solve the meta-problem. Be the one who finds those people, so you can inform others who want to find them.

I appreciate the issue. Having found a source of cubic meters of free fresh bread weekly, finding a charity willing & able to take it proved a significant problem. Just cataloging available/interested charities & entrepreneurs, and advertising the list, would be very helpful.

<comment><USER12> What were the difficulties in getting charities taking the bread? I mean, were they logistical problems? Were they worried about some increased risk or was it simply a case of bad admin?

<comment><USER25> Remember: I was/am dealing with 2-4 cubic meters of perishable bread once per week.

One place (public food pantry) couldn't distribute it for 3 days (good fresh artisan bread starts molding within 6 days, and pastries & baguettes stale within 3; recipients probably wouldn't eat theirs all within 2 days of receipt).

One place (women's shelter) wouldn't distribute it to the members/occupants (were teaching self-reliance, probably including making own bread). They'd sell it, making distribution 1-2 steps removed from assuring me what was actually happening to it.

Two places weren't always open when I could drop it off. Both planned and unplanned closures are problematic.

2-3 places wouldn't take it because items weren't individually packaged (I get it loose in large boxes/bags). Some kind of food safety rule applied in their case. Also, if they're not sure where it came from, they won't take it (I'm just some anonymous guy, not connected with the bakery nor charity).

Other charities don't know how long items will be in storage, so it must be packaged & shelf-stable for months/years.

By sheer chance (traffic rerouted past an accident scene) I found my current distributor, a food pantry which distributes it 12 hours after I get it. All they know is some guy shows up Monday morning with bushels of breadstuffs.

Mileage & waiting is also a problem. Takes me about an hour to pick it up, and another half hour to drop it off - most of the above taking longer, already straining the limits of my schedule.

And that doesn't get into the issues of actually handing out each individual piece, which is why I take it all somewhere for a single drop off, and don't try to hand it all out myself.

Oh, and some weeks no usable charity is open, and I end up with a ridiculous amount of bread I have no idea what to do with.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> > THE PROBLEM WITH LITTLE WHITE GIRLS

After a year in East Africa, that was one of the things I noticed here: they always come in pairs of 20-year-old white girls. Except for South East Asia, many more young men there.

> $3000 bought us a week at an orphanage

That can actually cause children being obducted or "borrowed" to staff orphanages for white Voluntourists.

> Our mission while at the orphanage was to build a library.

And another 10 African carpenters who lost a job to those white Santa-Clauses.

> have a camp run and executed by Dominicans

Good luck. I have never seen any organization actually run locally. Sure, it often looks like it is, but if you digg a little deeper, you always find at least one Westener (or local who lived half their life in the West) making sure that people actually do things and not just spend the money and idle. But there maybe one such organization, somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.

<comment><USER53> Read further on they didn't lose their jobs, their hours just got shifted temporarily.

> Turns out that we, a group of highly educated private boarding school > students were so bad at the most basic construction work that each night the > men had to take down the structurally unsound bricks we had laid and rebuild > the structure so that, when we woke up in the morning, we would be unaware > of our failure.

See? It all comes out in a wash in the end.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> Something which everyone so far has failed to mention is corruption. Tanzania is hardly the model of democracy. Putting some foreigners into the mix brings some extra certainty on how the money gets spent, even if the foreigners have their own perverse incentives.

</comment><comment><USER55> _I am good at raising money, training volunteers, collecting items, coordinating programs, and telling stories. I am flexible, creative, and able to think on my feet. On paper I am, by most people 's standards, highly qualified to do international aid._

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think it immediately follows the author is "highly qualified to do international aid" at all from that description alone. Shouldn't one require a profession of some sorts to be "highly qualified" in anything, perhaps? I would assume she is college educated: shouldn't a university education have qualified her as a professional in some field already?

</comment><comment><USER56> Ivan Illich had some good words to say on this topic:

[http://www.swaraj.org/illich_hell.htm](http://www.swaraj.org/illich_hell.htm)

</comment><comment><USER57> Regarding the OP's >"Sadly, taking part in international aid where you aren't particularly helpful is not benign. It's detrimental." I'm not sure that's true as you will still generally be bringing money to the country either in donations to the good cause or in the way that all tourists do by spending at local bars, souvenir shops and the like.

<comment><USER58> I'm not sure I'm morally okay with economies driven primarily by tourism. Nothing I can back up with reasoning or data, but whenever I think about it, I get the same gut reaction I do when I see a code smell.

<comment><USER17> > _I 'm not sure I'm morally okay with economies driven primarily by tourism._ > //

Is that just in places where the tourists are far richer than the indigenous population or is that as a general rule?

<comment><USER58> That is a large part of it, but it's not all of it. While it's a legitimate service to provide food and lodging to travelers–even if those travelers happen to be there primarily to see your cultural offerings–it bothers me that there are services directed towards showing them off pseudo-educationally.

It's... you learn enough to think you've learned something, when all you've really learned is a superficial, well-packaged veneer. If the point is to have something to do while being on vacation, that's fine... but why pretend? It doesn't really help that things are often designed to be entertainment. Is it really a good thing to put your culture on as a show? Sure, there's satire, but satire isn't satire when the audience doesn't actually know what you're satirizing.

(Also, isn't the income differential a fundamental part of a tourism economy? I mean, in Seattle's Pioneer Square, we've got random little gold mining shops and see-the-underground tours, which I'm also uneasy with... but that's not a tourism economy. I'd estimate a good 50% of people who work in this neighborhood are in tech; others are nightclub stuff; and a noted above- average complement of food people; etc. There's a tourism industry here, yes, but it's not a tourism economy.)

Like I said, it's more feeling than reasoning.

<comment><USER17> Thanks for expanded on your feelings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Voluntary work is not amateur work

I can't stress this enough, if you want to earn money you find something you are good at and society thinks is worth something. If you want to help someone you find something you are good at and people need. Maximize your impact by specializing in what you are good at and outsourcing that in which you are not.

</comment><comment><USER60> I loved this article. Really hits at the problem we're trying to solve. We find these 6 questions helpful to ask if you should (or shouldn't) volunteer your skills overseas: blog.movingworlds.org/6-questions-to-ask-yourself- before-volunteering-overseas/

</comment><comment><USER61> Even though voluntourist may not be the most useful addition to a team, I imagine the money that is spent to travel and spend time in the volunteer country also helps the local economy a great deal. An unintended benefit but nevertheless helpful.

</comment><comment><USER62> Wanna help some poor people? Give them money. In most cases, that's what they need, not your good will, not your clumsy efforts. Unless you have a very particular and highly-developed skill that's in high demand, just give money.

</comment><comment><USER51> The absolute worst thing is when the voluntourists don't speak the native language and stick out visually like a black man in Sweden.

<comment><USER63> _> stick out visually like a black man in Sweden_

You haven't been to Sweden lately. Demographics have changed. A snapshot from Sergels square, Stockholm : [http://thegambia.nu/files/2012/06/IMG_0514.jpg](http://thegambia.nu/files/2012/06/IMG_0514.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> I expected a treatise on Voluntaryism and I have to say that I got really far into the article before realizing I read the title wrong.

</comment><comment><USER65> I read it as "Why I stopped being a voyeurist" and thought it would be an article on finding morals.

It was radically different.

</comment><comment><USER66> It's pretty simple stuff where locals work for $10 per day, your labour contribution is only $10 per day for unskilled labour. IE helping orphans, cute animals, quick bouts of teaching etc

As a libertarian I'm big on spending heaps of money on localised products(With low resource costs) while visiting these countries instead, I make an effort to do stuff that normally I might be stingy on. I figure the money trickles through the economy while encouraging local business.

I also donate because it also has relevance, but if you want to help a community while having a great experience, just pay for it.

<comment><USER67> Agreed, your biggest advantage is your western salary. Why visit a village in a developing country and work like a local, contributing $3/day worth of labor? That's $1,000 for a year of work. Why not stay home, earn $50,000, and donate $10,000 to the village? They can spend that money to employ 10 local residents.

You just made 10x the difference by staying home, and you could probably contribute a few thousand dollars to your personal savings as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Yeah, seriously, go to a local food pantry, they'll be glad for the help

<comment><USER25> Suggestion: Panera Bread gives away (to charity) all the bread they have at the end of each day (their "Dough-Nation" program). Find a food pantry, find out when they're open, tell a Panera store you want to take their leftovers there. Both groups will appreciate you for it, especially if you're reliable: Panera doesn't want to throw hundreds of $$$ of good food away, and the pantry can probably use as much as they can get. Be reliable to both. Just transporting otherwise-discarded food from store A to charity B can make a big difference; takes about an hour a week, easy to do, is a needed activity few know is available.

I'm sure other stores will do something similar.

<comment><USER68> A lot of place literally just need to man-power to lift boxes around and help distribute food to clients.</comment></comment></comment>


Introducing Conjure, Palantir's Toolchain for HTTP/JSON APIs - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/palantir/introducing-conjure-palantirs-toolchain-for-http-json-apis-2175ec172d32 <comment><USER2> This looks interesting. How do you (if at all) tackle API versioning, or do you see that as orthogonal?

<comment><AUTHOR> We require all teams to use semver and usually define the Conjure API in the same repo as the server that implements it (so they are versioned together). Most of the time teams want to preserve wire-format back compat (i.e. only add optional fields to requests and don't remove things from responses). Devs are pretty good at this, but we actually run a conjure-backcompat checker as part of CI to catch any unintended breaks they might have missed.

When it comes to intentional breaks, teams save up a bunch of carefully documented changes and then tag the next semver major version (i.e. 2.0.0). This is safe to do because all microservices and frontends we build actually contain embedded minimum and maximum version constraints on the backend services they require. Our deployment infrastructure knows about all these constraints and can then ensure that new major releases will only be rolled out in production when all their callers have explicitly declared support.

<comment><USER3> The deployment infra constraints mentioned in parent post are generally managed by tooling we also publish[1]. The encoding ends up similar to Helm's, but happens through this tooling just by virtue of taking a dependency on a published jar, npm package or conda package, and that removes a lot of programmer error/guess work/maintenance. (I think we'd be open to also emitting Helm's formats in our packaging tools, if that's interesting to someone reading this feel free to open an issue on our repo and reference my post.)

[1]: [https://github.com/palantir/sls- packaging](https://github.com/palantir/sls-packaging)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm one of the authors of this project -- happy to answer questions!

</comment><comment><USER4> At a first glance it seems like a step backwards from already established solutions like Thrift or Protobufs? What are some of the reasons you decided to go this direction?

<comment><USER3> Two big motivations for us: (1) we had a large footprint of JAX-RS annotated Java services and a correspondingly large footprint of Typescript frontends communicating with those services, both hand-maintained; (2) we wanted something that felt just as native and ergonomic in browsers as it did on the backend.

Migrating from that setup required first having a declarative API format to translate through, and Conjure was our answer (starting in 2016) to generate human-quality code that would drop-in-replace our hand-maintained, language- specific client and server definitions.

That said, we're fans of gRPC/Protobuf and heavy Cassandra users (so also have a good breadth of experience with Thrift), and gave both serious looks before getting going, and again before deciding to open source our work today.

When we started on this tooling there really weren't great gRPC options for the browser, and the balance of our developer pain was around frontend/backend rather than backend/backend RPC. We also took a long look at Swagger/OpenAPI, but ultimately moved on because it focused more on the full coverage of any kind of HTTP/JSON API and as a result was too general to end up with consistent APIs across many services.

Over the last two years of development (and conversion of all our hand- maintained clients) we found that Conjure held a lot of value as an easy-to- adapt declarative definition format, that it applied strong enough constraints so as to make API development focused on the semantics and behaviors rather than the syntax or specification. And, we thought that that had sufficient value we should open it up to others.

Beyond that, we've got some work underway to use protobufs as the wire format, and enough flexibility built into the framework that we can use that or other non-JSON wire formats along-side JSON with the same client and server interfaces and code implementations.

<comment><USER4> Thanks for your answer. I think I initially misunderstood the intended purpose of this tool (probably because of how many times the word RPC appears in the text) and assumed it was used for backend-to-backend communication, for which HTTP/JSON seemed extremely sub-optimal given the existing open-source solutions.

While it does make a lot more sense in the context of FE<->BE, the second part of your answer, where you speak about consistency of APIs across many services is still a little confusing, as it suggests BE<->BE communication again. Unless you have a _huge_ , monolithic, internet/browser-facing service (which sounds rather undesirable) it's hard to imagine how browser<->middleware API could get out of hand to the point where it requires a dedicated unification framework.

Rephrasing my question - even though Conjure is not a commercial product (respect to Palantir for contributing to opensource) you must have had a target audience in mind for it: who is it? What exactly is the problem that Conjure is solving better than its existing alternatives?

<comment><USER3> Our systems look more wide than deep, and the breadth happens both in FE and in BE, so our diverse FE apps communicate with a relatively diverse set of BE services — we'd like those interactions to look unified no matter where you hit the system. In other words: we have a large number of microservices without a consolidating middleware.

Compared to other frameworks, Conjure more easily retrofits into HTTP/JSON service boundaries (no surprise based on its origins) and, IMO, provides great ergonomics for mixed FE/BE teams, especially where FEs are big and complex with lots of BE interaction.

In terms of audience, we'd hope this helps FE/BE teams with easy to use and ergonomic API defs, and think, as above, it'd especially help others who have existing surface area to convert to declarative APIs, even if only as a stepping stone.

On the BE/BE comms point: we use Conjure for all RPCs in our systems — while JSON is obviously not as compact as Protobuf or Thrift we've found serialization and transmission are rarely bottlenecks, and that, instead, a unified format and common treatment for clients is a boon for operability and stability — and often times also for aggregate system performance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Python bindings?

<comment><USER6> Yup! [https://github.com/palantir/conjure- python](https://github.com/palantir/conjure-python)</comment></comment>


Proposal for New RGI Emoji Sequences: Washing Hands - <AUTHOR> https://lemiwashmyhands.org/proposal <comment><AUTHOR> While a regular emoji could take years to get approved, vendors are free to implement ZWJ sequences. We've had some tentative interest from Facebook, Twitter and Whatsapp already.

</comment><comment><USER2> A simple and useful reminder tool at this difficult time. Thank you Matt and Lemi

</comment><comment><USER3> really great handwash campaign by matt #LemiWashMyhands [https://lemiwashmyhands.org/](https://lemiwashmyhands.org/)</comment>


The difference between a programmer & a hacker - <AUTHOR> http://hackerjobs.co.uk/blog/2012/4/24/the-difference-between-a-programmer-a-hacker

<comment><USER2> Well, not quite. I read a recent post that said that people over 35 should find other things to do with their life. Mark Zuckerberg is quoted as saying that young people are just better. Japanese companies won't hire programmers over 35. The programming business has somehow become the new "fashion" industry. Everybody wants "ninja rock stars" (somewhat a contradiction in terms I think).

As someone who is a programmer for 41 years, leads multiple open source projects, posts to github on a daily basis, and writes code every day I find this trend disturbing. I have interviewed for a job where I helped implement the compiler they use and I'm "not qualified for the job".

People ask me why I'm not in management. I've turned down several "promotions" in companies because I live to program. Why would I move from the top of my skill set to the bottom of a career I know nothing about?

So your advice is interesting but seems to have a target audience of recent graduates, not seasoned professionals. Look over your hiring record. I'm willing to bet that you have not hired anyone over 40, regardless of their github status.

<comment><USER3> Please don't be so polite. If a company is discriminating against "older" programmers, please call them out by name so the rest of us know to avoid them.

<comment><USER2> The exact phrase is "We don't think you will fit in to our culture". I won't name names for two reasons. First, I'd likely get a law suit. Second, the attitude is pervasive. Recent post-graduates doing first level "filter interviews" asking questions from their recent algorithms class. The process is optimized toward new graduates. "What's the average order of mergesort?" kind of nonsense. In 41 years of daily programming I've never had to code a sort routine. I have spoken to Tarjan about computing the order of the Rete algorithm but I don't think the Rete is covered in the college courses... and who ever heard of Tarjan anyway?

Sadly, this means that we will continue to repeat the same mistakes "for the first time". Knuth's literate programming, Alan Kay's Meta insights, Chandy and Misra's parallel work, and other fundamental quality gains will have to wait for another generation, assuming that generation ever gets its chance.

What I see are languages without standards "evolving". That is, they are making all old inventions but badly (e.g. Python has "closures" but only 1 liners. What a joke.) They "abstract away" complexity but badly (e.g. Ruby has gems but you have no idea what the ruby stack is really doing.). This is much different from Alan Kay's abstraction. To quote Stroustrop "C++11 is a whole new language!" And MapReduce as an "invention". Oh, please. The list goes on.

The worst part is the stupid hiring games meme. Solve our puzzle! Take our quiz! Show us your blog! How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Make sliding colored blocks on web pages!

Experience is a valuable asset in most professions but is looked down upon in programming. Unless, of course, your experience is "exact"... "oh, we need an Oracle 10.3 database guru with stored procedure experience".

If you want to know what companies to avoid... look for the ones that emphasize "culture'.

<comment><USER4> I agree with everything you just wrote, and I'm 23.

Either something's wrong with me, or something's wrong with this profession.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "You can't fake passion"

Honestly though, this gives a decent three step template for how to get yourself on the top of the pile in about ~1-5h worth of work:

1\. Register a GitHub account, fork some projects that look cool

2\. Register a domain, set up a yourname.github.com page for hosting, and add your contact info and link to github, whatever. Set up a mail redirector.

3\. Upload your own project. If you don't have one, probably a good idea is to replicate some basic utility. How about pretty printing JSON using python from the command line?

Bam! Passion, done. For extra credit, create a blog and write two-three posts on why Java is verbose, something on getting started with node.js on your machine and a benchmark of your json utility and another one.

In all sincerity, when I look at candidates I also look hard for passion, and a blog, github, stackoverflow, etc puts them at the top of the pile.

As a counter anecdote, I've worked with tons of really, really good developers who went home at five, and came in at nine, and brought it every day. For most of them, life happened and with two kids it's harder to be prolific or show resume-friendly passion.

On the other hand, I doubt any of them will ever need to send in a resume anyway.

<comment><USER6> People already do everything you said. It's pretty easy to spot. Just look for a bunch of forked projects with no commits by the person in question, a high ratio of forked to original projects, etc.

The biggest giveaway is that there are no projects which are just for fun.

Incidentally, I've observed that the "just for fun" projects is a good trick for identifying a serious economist as well. A real economist Tyler Cowen obsesses over the economics of finding good restaurants and whatever else tickles his fancy, whereas a pretender like Krugman is all serious policy issues (both examples of economists who's policy I tend to disagree with).

<comment><USER7> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Interstellar_Trad...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_Interstellar_Trade)

<comment><USER6> I should have clarified that I meant modern Krugman. Back in the day he was awesome. Thanks.

[edit: just noticed someone downmodded you. WTF, how does your valuable correction to my comment deserve a downvote?!?]

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "I will instantly disregard any CV that doesn't have reference to a GitHub account"

Well bravo you. The problem with recruitment in our industry is not the candidates with no GitHub account, its the egomaniacal interviewers who waste no opportunity to turn any interview, in this case any _application_ , into a passive-aggressive pissing contest.

 _Perhaps_ its acceptable for an interview to be adversarial, but I don't think any other industry matches the tech industry for the utter _hostility_ of the interview process.

<comment><AUTHOR> I disagree. The problem you mention is certainly a problem but it's by no means _the_ problem.

My disregard of people who don't commit to their own projects is entirely a personal choice and I didn't intend on that point to be a direction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This bothers me. I consider myself very passionate about programming - I think most people who know me would consider me to be a hacker.

That said, I work for a company that does not allow its code to be open- sourced. The job is demanding and after I put in 60+ hours a week, I simply feel worn out. On top of that, I have an 8 month old son which means that my sleep is fragmented at the best of times.

If you're unwilling to take the time to have a conversation with me to see my passion (and this is something I _firmly_ believe comes across in any interview) then I am unwilling to waste my precious time with my son to have an inane dialog about my lack of a public portfolio.

<comment><USER10> I think what the OP is trying to convey is that, passionate people leave external residue of their passion. Which I think is true. Do you have anything (code, scripts, blogs) to show (stuff which you worked on) when you worked at a different place?

On a different note, 60+ hours a week sounds too much, not sure when you started working on this job, but if you keep continuing that. You. Will. Burnout.

<comment><USER9> Been 7 years, been burned out for nearly 6. ;) And I've been here since I've graduated university in 2005.

And to answer the next question: it's a bank. Every time I've contemplated leaving, there was some major life-changing event that prevented me from doing so (i.e. getting married, wife losing her job, buying a house, moving abroad, having a kid...). Likely I'm making some excuses here, but my point remains: I know a lot of hard-working hackers that simply don't have the time to build a decent GitHub profile.

Those hackers - whom I work with - all read HN extensively to stay abreast of trends, and toy around with side-projects. But all that "side coding" happens whilst at work. And therein lies the problem. If you have ever worked as a programmer on Wall St. you won't need me to spell it out for you, but for those who haven't: your firm owns your intellectual property. Even if it's not related to the firm's business, if you do that work on the firm's premises, it is theirs, and you are not entitled to export it. If you try it is generally considered as grounds for termination.

<comment><USER11> It's not just Wall St. Everywhere I've worked has had similar clauses (even though some of them are of dubious legal stature in the UK).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Increasingly, I'm thinking that "show us your GitHub" is a good filter for companies or recruiters I don't care to work for or with, but then perhaps I'm not the target market; I've been doing this for a while, I'm not a shiny new graduate.

When I've interviewed people in the past, I've had them do some coding or domain modelling / OO design exercise as a phone screen. On the other side, companies I've interviewed with have used coding exercises (live or on paper).

I don't agree with the "if you're truly passionate" argument; challenge me in an interview and you'll find out how passionate I can be :) That doesn't extend to wasting my time with the latest recruiter fad. _If_ I want your job, and if you want to see code, ask me to write you something. Pick a language, I'm not choosy; I'll tell you if it's one I know or if I'll need some extra time to learn it, and if I'm not interested in a job using $SCRIPTING_LANGUAGE_OF_THE_WEEK$ we can stop there.

<comment><USER10> The companies which ask you for 'your github profile', really want to see your code. When, people are passionate, they do things outside _work_. This article on Feynman is relevant: [http://www.physics.ohio- state.edu/~kilcup/262/feynman.html?r...](http://www.physics.ohio- state.edu/~kilcup/262/feynman.html?repostindays=413)

If you are passionate about football, do you play football? or atleast watch others play football? That's definitely not your _work_. Why do you do it then?

<comment><USER11> Um, no, they don't. They're desperately trying to find a proxy for "is a good hire" without spending a lot of time on it. GitHub is just the latest in a long line of such.

I have some sympathy with them; recruiting is hard, vital to get "right", and susceptible to gaming by unscrupulous individuals. It's also hard to get rid of people once they're in (at least in the UK). However, this is WHY you have to spend a lot of time on it. There are no shortcuts. Adding another checkbox "Has GitHub account with code in it" to the process is futile. You know, it won't surprise me to see "faked" accounts with lots of (scripted) commits showing up. Easy to do. Or better, I'll sell you a convincing looking repository with some code and a cheat-sheet of what to say when asked about it at interview. Hey, cool new startup idea!

<comment><USER10> I think the OP says, it is one of the first filters, which I think is a good one. This is definitely no substitute for a thorough interview.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I've occasionally taken to send out a 'nano' CV - with my contact details, a paragraph of text and 3 URLs. My Stackoverflow account, Github, and my tech blog.

I've also been responsible for hiring developers over the last five years and if I saw something like that, and there was anything useful to see on those links, the person would be at the top of the shortlist. The only time I ever came close to it - I offered the guy a job within the first hour of meeting him. I've also worked with that guy again since then.

<comment><AUTHOR> Absolutely spot on.

Any hiring manager will have at least a dozen CV's in his inbox. Nano CV's take seconds to read and you are instantly made aware of the candidates ability plus it also gives an excellent indication of confidence in said ability which is a crucial factor in finding good people.

<comment><USER13> There's a deep secret of HR most of us programmers don't know of or understand - CVs are often printed on paper and transfered to other desks by hand. While it'd be exciting for a nerd to receive, in a traditional HR dept such a 'nano- cv' or what you call it will quickly become a piece of garbage just as it hits the printer.

<comment><AUTHOR> To be fair, if you are applying to a HR contact, then traditional is the way to go. I'd only ever recommend the use of 'nano' CV's if you can directly contact the person who makes the final decision.

<comment><USER13> Let's be honest: that only can work for small startups ran by young technical people or very small software houses where the 3-5 employees are in one room next to each other. In any company where there's even a slight hint of a corporate structure, you have to provide just what they are asking for or you'll be that dude who sent us a cv with no cv on it.

//edit: Actually, now I remember I was that guy many years ago. I was applying for a programmer at the tech dept of a publisher. Sent a very short cv with some basic data and a link to portfolio. The head of IT (actually a clueless older dude on sweatshop wage) came with a print, took a look at it very disappointed and said "that's the shortest cv I've received". And there wasn't even a laptop around to check my portfolio while speaking. From what I saw there I didn't want to work for them anyway, but it still proves my point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I see a lot of discussion over the Github comments. I understand the merits of having an account with some code on it, as well as the restrictions of corporations and time that prevent many people from maintaining a repository. However this is a red herring.

The problem is visibility.

The resume is very poor at showcasing your talents. All the common resume advice makes yours hard to differentiate from everybody else's. While having a website, Github, Bitbucket, or something else will help your case, you are already hobbled by the very generic-ness of the resume format. You can play with the fonts and format, but I've found that it's a fine balance between the "Pop" factor and annoying the reader.

The other major problem with the resume is they are very low cost in terms of those applying. A unscrupulous candidate can send out hundreds of resumes to shotgun his chances at landing a job. The time it takes to vet out these is many times higher for the hiring party, and it is multiplied by the number of resumes to vet. Companies must then increase the cost of applying, either through coding tests or puzzles, but this paradoxically turns away candidates who might be qualified and don't have the time. This is especially true for small startups who have problems with visibility of their own.

To me, the question isn't Github use or having a website, but _how can I increase my visibility_? Being physically present in front of people who are hiring is so ridiculously powerful, that most hires are made that way. Thus, obviously, meetups/networking/hackathons are a giant step in the right direction, but not everybody is in the correct neighborhood and can't casually attend. For those of us that aren't local, how can we disrupt the email->resume->round-file process that effectively dehumanizes most applicants?

I am warming up to short video submissions because of their ability to show the personality and creativity of the individual behind all the credentials. It allows for both a quick introduction, as well as introducing a subtle time cost, on behalf of the applicant and it doesn't add significant (as far as I know) time to the hiring manager.

On the other hand, maybe the hiring process is an NP-Hard problem.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm a junior level web developer in my first year at a salary job for such. I'm self taught and motivated, with a good CV and lots of completed projects under my belt.

Now it's become obvious my work has a serious visibility problem. Still pulling less-than-average wages, I asked my employer for a performance review which resulted in above average praise. Naturally I'm curious about the difference between my work and a Real Developer. They explained that a a web developer is dedicated with more experience on real projects etc, but reading between the lines it seemed like a perception that I've yet to pay my dues with long hours spent in frustration testing on overdue deliverables. So I understand that resentment, who do I think I am to walk in and demand wages consummate with my output? This is a communication problem. My abilities might mirror my peers, but reputation is effecting my career directly. At this point I realize most of my work is invisible, patching broken websites and refactoring old code, deploying small changes etc.

I need more visibility, I need to show off my skills and process more. I'm out of time and energy, my private projects at home are my own and I'd like to keep them private (for now). Now I'm working with my marketing person to setup a company development blog, hopefully that will give me more control over my image with this company.

<comment><USER16> It's never a good thing to feel unappreciated or underpaid. If your employer refuses to give you what you consider a fair wage, start looking elsewhere. Many employers tend to operate on inertia: Unless you're about to leave, it's easier to just ignore your problems. It's up to you to spur them into action, which it sounds like you've been doing to varying degrees, but if they still refuse to move, you have to kick it up a notch. Find a better offer from another company. If your current company truly values you, they will try to keep you on board. If not, you have a better offer anyway and will likely be valued more at the new place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I always have a problem in mind while in college, and the problem becomes my real problem. If my day job requires me to work from 9am to 8pm, excluding 1 hour round trip commute, which is a norm in the city I am living in, how can I squeeze out time to maintain a meaningful github repo/ SO profile / tech blog? I really want to sharpen my skills AND display it, but my day job already take up literally half of my life.

<comment><AUTHOR> I do understand your frustation and to be perfectly honest, I hear the same concern _constantly_. The fact is, if you're truly passionate about something, you'll find the time. I work a 60 hour week and I have a 2 year old boy and an impatient wife at home yet I find the time to dedicate at least a couple of hours a week to blogs, news, forums and so on and I can sincerely say that it doesn't have any significant impact on my precious family time.

Keep in mind, a useful GitHub repo doesn't need to contain anything groundbreaking. Honestly, even a simple fizzbuzz application is enough to prove you can code.

<comment><USER18> I understand the frustration of trying to find talent in a sea of uselessness. (Not even mediocrity: I've interviewed candidates who could not explain a for loop, how to write one, or when to use one.)

However, you are trying to take your version of passion and project it onto everyone else, and I think that is harmful. If gwat is working 9-8 and in love with their job, they are passionate and don't need a github to prove it.

It's your phrase "truly passionate" that rubs me the wrong way, as did the content of the OP. Your definition of a True Hacker(tm) definitely does not match mine. Your post reminds me of a checklist for a recruiting fantasist's wet dream resume more than an explication of what makes hackers different, and I found it distasteful.

As always, YMMV. I can only speak to how the post struck me.

<comment><USER19> I agree completely. It's pure ego: a "true hacker" is someone who is exactly like me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The "every good hacker has a github account" sentiment is a bit scary to me.

As far as I know, after signing my hiring contract, all of my work is owned by the company. Even work done at home; owned by the company. I do not believe this is unusual, every company I have worked for has had me sign a similar contract. If I make the perfect sandwich, the recipe is company property. I am not allowed to distribute company owned assets without the company's permission; and I am not going to ask the company for permission to share code they haven't seen on github.

Even if I wasn't contractually restricted, I would not contribute to a github account. My spare time is spent working on research projects for my corporation's benefit. Many of these become real products. A few I've had patented. These make us real money; github does not.

I hope I am not, in the future, disregarded for a job because I am missing a link to a github account in my resume.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'd just like to thank you for putting all the clueless recruiters out there into a frenzied word search for "Github".

Yours, A Bitbucket User

<comment><USER22> he does mention nongithub possibilities, quote: "[...]GitHub account or at least a portfolio of personal work hosted on the candidates own website[...]"

Though I certainly agree with you, people don't seem to notice any other hosting repositories.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is exactly the problem with hiring. No one can take their ego out of the equation. Every single one of these 'hiring hacks' stems from our deep-seated desire to see ourselves as one of the "10x programmers". So we look for the same thing on other people to validate ourselves. When we're in a position to hire, we hire people who match our own particular quirks, re-enforcing the idea that we're one of the best. All of these subjective hiring hacks mean absolutely bullocks.

</comment><comment><USER23> "...typical career programmer that doesn't touch a line of code between Friday night and Monday morning."

do late-night and weekend commits to a Github Firewall account count?

A pretty polarised view, here: we are all either 'career' 501 programmers, or disenchanted hackers?

What of the guys who choose companies they're passionate about and which inspire them to find spare coding time after hours and during weekends? You know, the kind of role you don't need an opining recruiter to source on your behalf.

</comment><comment><USER24> There is one outstanding hacker in our company. He is one of the smartest people I've met. He knows so much and incredibly deep. However, he has no blog. He has no github account. He does not share own code anywhere. He does not use social networks. Your advices quite correct, but quite dangerous at the same time. I learned that CV are often misleading, so better to contact a person and ask some questions...

</comment><comment><USER25> I am a junior level developer and in both jobs that I have had since graduating, to the senior developers the term programmer refers to a professional software developer who takes pride in their work and does things correctly, while the term hacker can either mean someone who is attacking a system, or someone who comes up with kludge solutions to temporarily 'cover up' poor design decisions i.e. a 'hack'.

</comment><comment><USER26> I don't mind giving bonus points for having a github account, but to take it as a bad sign? Actually no - good for us - we'll get all the interesting people stuck in jobs which don't allow own projects or make them hard to publish with useless bureaucracy.

</comment><comment><USER27> Are there good candidates who don't have github etc?

They must exist. How do you avoid missing them?

</comment><comment><USER28> "Programmer" is a profession. "Hacker" is a calling.</comment>


MongoDB comparison and Experience - <AUTHOR>

Hi, who is using MongoDB and what is your experience?<p>Is there any reason I choose MongoDB over other alternatives? <comment><USER2> I used MongoDB to handle analytics for our system and it's been OK. We had some problems with memory leaks & other issues with Mongo but as new versions are released, these problems are fixed.

As for the question "Why MongoDB?" it depends on what you want MongoDB to do. Each of the NoSQL solutions have their pros and cons and you'll be best doing some investigation into what best suits your purposes. For example, CouchDB has built in record versioning. For analytic's this is an unwanted overhead but for a system where you need record history (e.g. collaboration tool) having that built into your DB is a big boost.

Then there's also the CAP Theorem. Check out this URL for a great overview: <http://blog.nahurst.com/visual-guide-to-nosql-systems>. Out of consistency, availability and partition tolerance, you can only satisfy 2 of the three. So for example, your solution could partition beautifully and every client could read/write data when you want but at the same time you couldn't guarantee every client sees the same data all the time.

Hope that gives you a little food for though. MongoDB's great. The community is helpful, the product is quick & easy to get up and working with and it's powerful to boot. But it's not the only solution out there and the right solution depends on what you are aiming for.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you are looking to do anything with mobile applications, I would recommend CouchDB. CouchBase has a version of it that includes Android and iOS libraries for automatic sync.

I know you are asking about Mongo, but I feel like this might be helpful.

<comment><USER4> Any idea if Apple will approve app embedded with CouchDB?

<comment><USER3> They have, I know multiple developers who have small apps running with CouchDB on iPhone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My experience with MongoDB has been great! Covered in detail here: [http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/technology/mongodb- mon...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/technology/mongodb-mongo-nosql- db/)</comment>


CloudRoullete - The danger of public URLs in getcloudapp.com - <AUTHOR> http://www.cloudroulette.net/

<comment><AUTHOR> And you can even filter by extension, like this: <http://www.cloudroulette.net/png> or <http://www.cloudroulette.net/psd></comment>


Ask HN: Freemium: how far upwind should I stay - <AUTHOR>

Say you build a web app that cannot exist commercially without paying users (not a facebook). Yet you want to upwind the competition (to use pg's analogy) by being benevolent and offering free features - making it easy for users to get up and running with your software. The question is, when do you draw the line - when does a feature become "for paying customers only"? For example, how did Dropbox decide 2GB would be free - why not 10GB, why not 100 MB? <comment><USER2> I segmented my probable market into two groups of customers, one which was numerically numerous and one which I felt would get the most value out of the application, and chose my pricing scheme such that the free version is close to worthless for group #2 except insofar that it demonstrates they'll have a positive experience with the paid version.

<comment><AUTHOR> Excellent advice patio11. Why you dont do a full time startup is beyond me. Let me know when you are available for consulting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The approach I have always been taught is to make it so the user does not hit the "pay wall" within the first hour. First full day of use is preferable. If they are using the product for that full hour, their use of the site/product is becoming more than a passing interest. In which case, when they get to that barrier they are already invested mentally and now they need to decide how valuable your service is.

In the case of Dropbox, you can store quite a few documents, pictures, and MP3s within 2GB. When you want to start backing up your whole hard drive, then you have committed to their product.

</comment><comment><USER4> I was actually wondering that today with Lead Nuke: <http://www.leadnuke.com/signup>

Their free and $10/mo plans both include "standard security." The $30/mo plan includes "Enhanced (SSL) security."

Specifically I was wondering if the cost of an SSL certificate that browsers like was what influenced not including it in the lower level paid plan ($10/mo) or whether it was more to make the $30 plan more attractive. Or something else.

</comment><comment><USER5> I would look at what the feature cost me to offer and use that as the basis of my decision.</comment>


Low Hanging Fruit of Programming Language Design - <AUTHOR> http://250bpm.com/blog:112 <comment><USER2> Looking at the paper, it seems like most of the duplication is coming from folks who commit copies of library code into their repos. I think there are valid reasons to do that, and anyway it's not something that can be solved by programming language design.

Apart from that, most of the duplication is auto-generated project skeletons for frameworks like Django or Angular. I dislike frameworks as much as the next guy, but there's value in having a standard folder structure across different projects. So not a case for programming language design either.

Another widespread case of code generation that wasn't covered in the post is cross-language definition of structs or APIs. That's also not a case for programming language design, because the whole point is interoperating between languages.

In summary, we don't yet have a strong idea how analyzing code duplication or generation can lead to better programming language design. The conclusion might still be true, but you need to work a bit harder for it.

</comment><comment><USER3> > In Java, 70% of duplicates were due to code generation. For C++ is was 18%, > for Python 85%, for JavaScript 70%.

C++ is the real outlier there. That could be because C++ code is much harder to generate, but I don't buy that it's _that_ much harder than Java. Or it could be because C++ templates aren't considered "code generation". Or it could be because C++ doesn't get used for projects with that much boilerplate code. Or...</comment>


Symptoms of Social Media Shadowbanning for Your Diagnosis - <AUTHOR> https://sociable.co/social-media/symptoms-of-shadowbanning-on-social-media-for-your-diagnosis/ <comment><USER2> This is what you get for posting on platforms you don't own. Get your own website instead of being a digital sharecropper.</comment>


Ask HN - <AUTHOR> I have noticed that educational institutions (.edu in the US, .ac in the UK) usually have staff pages in the format /~[name]. I don't think I have seen this elsewhere. Is there a reason? <comment><USER2> It's the Unix convention (shell expansion) for a the path to a user's home directory: [https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Tilde- Exp...](https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Tilde- Expansion.html)

As a result, many Web servers exposed user-provided Web content using the same path: [https://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/howto/public_html.html](https://httpd.apache.org/docs/trunk/howto/public_html.html)

Universities have continued using that convention, probably because professors have accounts (and thus URLs) for decades.

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought it might be something like that. Thanks for the explanation.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I included a tilde in the title and it and the text after it disappeared. Strange.</comment>


Mastodon 1.5: new visual identity and more - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@Gargron/m-for-mastodon-4269c0bf6c8b <comment><USER2> I've had some great interactions on Mastodon. I'm hopeful that the fediverse will continue to grow along with public support for ethical social networking.</comment>


From Outsourcing Your Life to Full Automation (Part One) - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@jyz/from-outsourcing-your-life-to-full-automation-part-one-dd3c74dc5361#.1b75fe7n8 <comment><USER2> Would you write something about how your selection process is?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I will definitely write about that in a separate article after I finish this one.

<comment><USER2> Thanks. Looking forward to it

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Good advice m

</comment><comment><USER4> good finding</comment>


What is your Sublime Text workflow? - <AUTHOR>

I'm curious: What does your editing workflow look like when you work with Sublime? What type of development do you do, and what plugins and features are most useful? <comment><USER2> PHP/Rails web developer here using OSX:

I like to keep ST full screen with the file browser hidden (Cmd + K + B) with just the code being displayed. When I need to find a file in the project I simply use the file finder (Cmd + P), or if I can't recall the file name or need to create new files I open back the file browser (Again using Cmd + K + B).

I don't really take full advantage of ST plugins, sometimes use Emmet and have BracketHighlighter installed.

Theme wise I use the Tomorrow-Night-Eighties colour scheme, Soda Dark theme along with Menlo 12 font.

I also keep chrome open full screen again in another window and swipe across to that when I need to view changes (Gets automatically updated when made using the LiveReload app).

</comment><comment><USER3> I mostly do Web Development with Python, PHP, Javascript, HTML and CSS. The plugins I use are

* Package Control (<http://wbond.net/sublime_packages/package_control>) - For easy installation of plugins.

* Tag (<https://github.com/SublimeText/Tag>) - Autocompletation, Indentation, Lint of HTML tags.

* Sublime Linter (<https://github.com/SublimeLinter/SublimeLinter>) - To identify the parse errors on the fly.

</comment><comment><USER4> I write Javascript/PHP/HTML/CSS in Sublime 2 on Windows 8 with Chrome for previewing.

My main workflow is to have my active projects added on the file browser so I have ctrl+p to find files, I have Chrome open on my second monitor and I use the fantastic SFTP plugin to upload to my server on save. I use the LivePage Chrome plugin to reload pages when something changes - [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/livepage/pilnojpmd...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/livepage/pilnojpmdoofaelbinaeodfpjheijkbh)

</comment><comment><USER5> For PHP/coffeescript/LessCSS projects, here is something that I use:

I create a Phing build file in build/build.xml. Then I map a key combination (alt+super+b) that builds the default Phing target defined in that file. I find this helpful for quickly compiling Coffeescript and Less CSS on my local machine.

</comment><comment><USER6> 1\. Open Sublime Text 2\. Write code like a bawss 3\. There is no step 3

<comment><USER7> So you never get around to releasing your code either, eh?</comment></comment>


Groovy 2.4 and Grails 3.0 to Be Last Major Releases Under Pivotal Sponsorship - <AUTHOR> http://blog.pivotal.io/pivotal/news-2/groovy-2-4-and-grails-3-0-to-be-last-major-releases-under-pivotal-sponsorship

<comment><USER2> "The decision to conclude its sponsorship of Groovy and Grails is part of Pivotal's larger strategy to concentrate resources on accelerating both commercial and open source projects that support its growing traction in Platform-as-a-Service, Data, and Agile development."

Unless Pivotal is moving away from the JVM (doubtful), I'm surprised they didn't consider Groovy a natural fit for their 'Agile development' category. Groovy + Spock + Gradle makes for a wonderful TDD experience.

<comment><USER3> Gradle is Groovy's last breath.

If it wasn't for Google pushing it down my throat for Android development, I would have never bother to learn it.

I still remember the days when German JUGs had Groovy talks at almost every meeting, somewhere around 2009. Nowadays it is seldom discussed.</comment></comment>