Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT - <AUTHOR> http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/ <comment><USER2> "The diagonally-oriented camera is strange. In the one orientation it's optimized for, it's slightly annoying. In any other orientation, it's almost intolerable. "

"The built-in front-facing camera for Skype is angled so that it'll work great when the kickstand is open, but again, only for Danny DeVito, or maybe for people who want to show off their chests in Skype."

\</comment><comment>

"The Touch Cover is one of the Surface's biggest innovations. I thought I would hate it, but I didn't. It's not like typing on a completely flat surface: each "key" is raised slightly, so while there isn't any mechanical feedback, it does feel a bit like a keyboard."

"The Type Cover (the one with real keys) just works. I've got big hands that often struggle on undersized keyboards, but I can type very quickly on the Type Cover."

\</comment><comment>

"He showed me Office, which was almost unusable: it was extremely sluggish, and touch targets were tiny and difficult to hit."

"So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I get the feeling that the Surface RT's CPU or Word code just can't keep up with my typing. Here's an example video:"

\</comment><comment>-

"The standard gestures don't help, requiring many in-from-the-edge swipes that not only aren't discoverable"

"After waiting over a minute for the machine to boot and launch the mail app, I got a blank gradient screen. User interface 101: if the app needs to be set up on the first launch, offer to do that, please. Folks from Twitter suggested that I swipe out from the right side and click Accounts"

\--

So, can we conclude that these observations might be real (V. 1) problems without resorting to ad-homs regarding the author?

<comment><USER3> > _"So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I > get the feeling that the Surface RT's CPU or Word code just can't keep up > with my typing. Here's an example video:"_

I'm on the Word team in Office and I'm coming into this thread incredibly late, but FWIW the slow typing on ARM was something we couldn't fully address in time for the preview release. Word RTM (ARM and x86/x64) has _much_ better performance.

One of the challenges we had was that for a large majority of the product cycle we didn't even _know_ about the Surface. We were looking at ARM early on, but the hardware we had was prerelease hardware from MSFT partners that had varying levels of performance.

Even now we don't know a whole lot about the Surface. It's a little frustrating, since we (Office) hit RTM we're eagerly awaiting the point at which new Surface RTs will have Office RTM baked into them. The preview release is seriously many many months old from the RTM release, and it's painful to think that _this_ is what customers are going to see from Office when they turn on their shiny new device.

<comment><USER4> This issue is known, intermittent and dependent on a number of factors. It has been addressed and an update is forthcoming.

This type of issue would be identical across NVIDIA based ARM PCs and large numbers of the reference platforms were available at the same time they have been available to external developers.

Developers on the Office team (and Word team) that needed to contribute to the ARM focused work had access to the tools and hardware needed, including Surface specific hardware. There was no shortage of knowledge, hardware, or communication.

<comment><USER5> Off topic comment. Just tried the surface RT at the Microsoft store today. I think its awesome. I am considering the surface PRO for purchase. However, I am concerned that I cannot use it as a "laptop" i.e. balance the surface while typing with the keyboard on my lap. This is probably 50% of my usage scenario. If there is a heavier version of typecover that can support the tablet without a kickstand when placed on the lap I would rush out to buy the Pro version.

<comment><USER6> I can type on my lap with touch cover just fine. Not quite as fast as when on a desk but I think that is true (for me) even with normal laptops. I think it just has to do with the angle that your arms/hands are in.

I was also a little skeptical but I was pleasantly surprised by how natural and easy it felt.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> You'll probably return that one, too, after you see the poor battery life on it. Also, you may get _some_ tablet usability with Metro on it (not many apps to choose from, though), but after using Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows 8 is _worse_ in usability than Windows 7, so you will be definitely taking a step back when you'll be using the desktop mode.

After using Windows 8 I just see no good reason for anyone to use it on an old PC instead of Windows 7. I only see drawbacks, such as the forced Metro interface, and the inconsistencies in the desktop mode UI, which seem like a patched-up job done 6 months before the release or something, to make it more "Metro".

<comment><USER8> That's what everyone said about windows 7 and XP and NT ... People always are afraid of change until they get used to it. Metro is really just a replacement start button, if you give it some time so it's familiar you'll be fine. Everyone hated the start button back when too.

<comment><USER9> I don't have an opinion either way, but this stands out to me:

> That's what everyone said about windows 7

Did people say that about Windows 7? I remember Vista was awful and nobody liked it and people were (naturally) apprehensive about Windows 7 prior to release but from what I recall -- granted my memory could be poor -- Windows 7 was well received at release and I don't know of anyone off hand that had problems with it but I can name quite a few that complained about Vista. Although I guess it could be argued that Windows 7 wasn't anything _new_ , it was just Vista but how Vista _should_ have been...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Surface with Windows RT is supposed to be a stripped down version of Windows, that runs 99% in Metro-mode, not Desktop-mode.

Right now there are two exceptions to this: Office (preview version - buggy) and a Desktop-mode version of IE. Everything else is 100% Metro. And I don't think you can even install anything yourself on it except via it's App Store. Hence it's Desktop-mode is not really there for the benefit of the consumer. And the Office offering will need to be further ported and refined for RT before everything is worked out. I'm not even sure why they put Office on it.

It's a device made mostly for browsing the internet and running some apps while holding it in your hands. Which is what the bigger market is for.

While this was a good and honest review, I think his use-case is off on this one and he will be better suited waiting for Surface with Windows 8 Pro.

I would also be curious to know what his height is, so I'd know what "for short people" means... The pics I've been able to find of the author, he's at least 6'2", maybe even 6'5".

If you are as toll as the author, you could probably either move the device away a bit, zoom out the image, or perhaps put something underneath it's stand to angle it properly.

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. I'm 6'3".

I can move the Surface RT away from me to the point where I'm fully in the camera, but then I can't reach the keyboard. That doesn't quite work.

<comment><USER10> Do you think it's possible to mod the plastic peace that is the back-stand by shortning it? Is it removable or replacable itself? Could be a good kickstarter idea... "Surface RT stand for tall people."

<comment><USER11> It's made out of a very solid-feeling metal (VaporMG), and it feels like it'd be quite difficult to shorten. I do really like the idea of replacing it with a shorter piece though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm excited about the prospect of a Windows 8 tablet. I'm willing to spend as much as it costs to get one. Unfortunately, nobody wants my money.

Yesterday was the big retail launch. I was on a mission to check out what my local stores had and, if they had anything that could do the job for me, buy it. I've always wanted a tablet, but only if it could be as useful as a laptop when paired with a keyboard. The new Windows 8 tablets are supposed to be just that.

Best Buy had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Asus Vivo Tab running Windows RT... supposedly. I don't want an RT tab, and this store didn't even have a working floor model of the one tablet they were selling. The one they had was stuck on a "failed to automatically repair Windows" screen. It was also glued to the display stand so I couldn't pick it up and get a feel for the hardware.

OfficeMax had zero (0) Windows 8 tablets. Heck, they had no Windows 8 touch screen laptops either. Or price tags. Or product specs. Or anything I could play with, really. There was one employee there setting up a display model of some laptop while complaining to another about how they were supposed to have tags for the computers but had none. Their electronics section was a joke.

Staples had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Samsung ATIV running Windows 8. Success! I actually spent some time playing with this one. Again, I couldn't really get a feel for the hardware, or specifically the weight, given it's got a pound of security alarms and tethers bolted onto the back chaining it to the display area. Beyond that, the specs just weren't up to snuff -- with 2GB RAM and 64GB storage, I'd just barely be able to run enough software to occasionally use it as a portable development machine. With nothing installed on it, there was only 14GB of free space -- the OS and preinstalled apps were using 50GB of the 64GB out of the box.

So all those trips were a waste of time. There's no Microsoft Store anywhere within 4 hours of me, so those 3 were the full range of retail options here.

I'm basically looking for a Surface Pro (Intel Core processor, 4GB RAM, 128GB storage). It's amazing that despite knowing Microsoft would be building this, nobody else built something comparable, and stores aren't carrying even the few tablets/hybrids they did build.

<comment><USER13> (Disclosure: Microsoft employee writing this on a Surface with Touch Cover)

Check out the Samsung Series 7 slate. 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM, core i5. 11.6 inches and a little less than 2 lbs. Unfortunately I don't know where you could find one in person to play with. I've been using it with Win8 for a bit and quite liked it -- with the dock and a keyboard you can run Visual Studio just fine.

This link suggests Samsung just rev'd it to add a higher res screen, keeping the 4 GB RAM and 128 SSD. [http://www.bestsalenewreviews.com/Samsung- Series-7-XE700T1C-...](http://www.bestsalenewreviews.com/Samsung- Series-7-XE700T1C-A01US-Slate-ATIV-Smart-PC-Pro-700T-Reviews)

It is too bad that they haven't figured out distribution for your area. It does sound like what you want.

<comment><USER14> Looking at the Series 7 right now at Amazon [1], the Surface Pro version of this with a similar spec would be nice for the Type Cover, and note that this has similar tech specs as my 2011 Macbook Air, indeed a very promising replacement for Air+iPad, I'll keep watching but will skip this iteration simply for having purchased the iPad 3 recently. (.NET Developer here)

[1]: [http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Series- XE700T1A-A02US-11-6-Inc...](http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Series- XE700T1A-A02US-11-6-Inch-Premium/dp/B006KYY1AU)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've had mine since 10AM yesterday; and I'm actually fairly pleased, at least for effectively being a new platform. Thoughts, in no particular order:

\- Love the build. Very solid overall.

\- 16:9 means it's one long tablet. Oddly, it's actually fairly usable in portrait; can't say the same for my old 16:10 Transformer (maybe just better balanced?)

\- The touch cover is, like most say, surprisingly usable. Desperately needs a way to no-op Caps Lock though.

\- Screen res lower than iPad, but still usable. Difference not near as noticeable as between iPad 2/3, but too many factors in play to make an objective call there.

\- Metro takes getting used to, but I like it (even with KB/trackpad).

\- It's the first time I've seen proper desktop Gmail and Google Docs usable in a tablet browser.

\- Performance is generally decent. Not blazing, but decent.

\- Windows RT appears to still contain far more of Windows than we've been led to believe. Even `csc` is installed, but missing a few dlls.

\- No SSH client for Metro yet. That's one of the risks you take on a new platform (esp. a non-Unix one), but still aggravates me.

\- Snapping is very, very handy; nice solution to bring proper multitasking to a tablet UI.

\- When touch-scrolling over on desktop apps (what few remain), the entire window "bounces" at the head/tail of the content. Odd decision.

\- No central notification bin (like Android's shade or iOS's Notification Center). Have to rely on scanning Live Tiles if you miss anything.

\- The back camera seems to exist only to make the iPad 2's back camera feel better about itself. Has to be the blockiest camera I've ever seen.

\- Handwriting recognition is pretty solid. Wacom junkies will be very pleased when so-equipped tablets ship. (Capacitive styli still suck)

\- None of the Twitter apps have really thrilled me. Given the circumstances, I'm not that surprised.

\- OS-level share support is a smart move; similar to Android's impl but more thorough (sharing pops up a share pane from your selected app in the sidebar, instead of bouncing you out of your current app entirely).

\- Printing is mildly unintuitive; you have to open the "Devices" charm and pick your printer. No one is going to guess that's how to print.

\- On the bright side, our network printer/scanner was detected and installed immediately, with zero user intervention. Very, very far cry from the WinXP days.

\- There's no way to see your precise battery life outside of the desktop (in the classic sys-tray).

\- Presumably due to the use of pressure sensors vs. capacitive, the Touch Cover isn't quite as accurate without a solid surface underneath.

\- If you're not using the keyboard (watching movies, etc.), flip the cover backwards with the kickstand out and it's nearly as stable as a laptop.

\- The intro tells you about the basic edge swipes (right for charms, left for app switcher, top/bottom for menu); not mentioned is swiping straight from top-center to bottom kills the current app.

\- Screenshot is Win+VolDown.

\- Wordament can be played while snapped. This is dangerous.

\- IE lets you swipe on the outer edge of the page for back/forward, which would be smart if this didn't occasionally clash with the app switcher.

Questions?

(PS: I typed this entire post on the Touch Cover.)

<comment><USER16> Nice review. I've spent the last 6 weeks working on a Windows 8 app. I've been using a dell box and samsung tablet with visual studio and a wired mouse/wireless keyboard so I can speak first hand about what it's like to use the 'desktop' part of Windows 8 for serious work.

 _Disclaimer: I've been a web developer for 4 years and have used a Mac during that whole time. Before that the only experience I had with windows was a typing class in high school and casually using it at people's houses. I don't have a bunch of Windows experience. This was the first native windows app that I've ever created. Also I've been using a full blown copy of WIndows 8 which is different than WinRT. Any of the mentions of 'desktop' software below won't run on a WinRT device._

Truthfully I'm not entirely sold on the idea of having a full blown computer in a tablet. Sure if was convenient for me to travel with the tablet and then when I got to a desk just plug in a mouse and attach a wireless keyboard but something still seemed incorrect.

More than once I was showing a workmate some code and absentmindedly touched the screen which highlighted the code and rearranged the order or cut it to the clipboard. Granted I'll develop the muscle memory to deal with that issue over time but I thought it worth noting that my initial reaction to having a 'full' computer on a tablet was negative.

Though I agree with you 100% that there is more "Windows" in here than we've been led to believe. In fact I found that only when launching apps did I interact with the metro start screen. Other than that I could just alt+tab right past it. All of the apps that I was using (sans the app that I was actually developing) were 'desktop' apps: Internet Explorer 10, File Explorer, Visual Studio 2012, cigwin and Tortoise SVN.

FWIW I like the traditional desktop version of IE10 much better than the new metro version of IE10. Which version of IE10 do you prefer? Have you done any app development?

The app that we created was built on the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript stack.Just like a webapp you build the UI in HTML/CSS and wire it together with javascript. There's a suite of UI elements in the WinJS.UI namespace that you can quickly build the UI with. You can also access the hardware and the Windows Runtime from javascript APIs.

The development experience was a real eye opener. The high level take away is that all the talk over the past 5 years about HTML5 eventually being used to create applications that could rival their native counterparts is finally coming to fruition.

You can build a Windows 8 app in either the native or the web stack and they will have nearly 100% feature parity. I've been considering making the switch from being a web developer to being a native app developer recently because I've been feeling limited by the browser. I've just wanted to get deeper access to the hardware and the OS and windows 8 fulfils that need.

Unfortunately they completely mangle the DOM and inject insane amounts of useless markup and attribute/values which make the semantic web geek inside of you die a little each time the app compiles and runs.

A small example--in my code I had a button that was a child of a div. It was literally two lines of HTML. After the app 'built' I couldn't get an event listener that was listening for an event on the child button to fire.

I used the DOM inspector to check out what was happening and not only had the compiler injected about 20 lines of html around each of my elements complete with dozens of data-foo attributes—it didn't even maintain the parent/child relationship from my markup! You can imagine how disconcerting it is to doubt that the core relationships of your markup aren't going to be maintained.

If you have time check out the app I helped created-Trulia for Windows 8: [http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-US/app/trulia-real- estat...](http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-US/app/trulia-real-estate-homes- for/aaa2a256-90ca-4abd-938f-3788f598a235)

<comment><USER15> I actually prefer the Metro IE; simply because I'm using this more from the tablet angle than a desktop. My primary machine is a 13" MBA; I've got Win8 running in a VM there and I essentially see it as Win7 with a faster Start Search. I'm in the process of developing a small hobby app right now; but in C#/XAML (out of familiarity more than anything else). I've done WP7 development once and it was frankly amazing to work with, definitely compared to the Android stack. So far, my experience with WinRT is pretty close.

PS: app is pretty sharp!

<comment><USER16> Thank you!

:-]

If you have a Trulia account and use any of our other apps (www.trulia.com, m.trulia.com, or any of our iOS/Android phone/tablet apps <http://www.trulia.com/mobile/>) and save a search or a property that data will get synced to the Windows 8 app and will show up on the main page (what we call 'the hub').

You can create an account from within the Windows 8 app from the charms bar.

Also to change your location go to the map view by tapping on a map tile from the hub.

Once on the map view swipe from the bottom to reveal the app bars. In the bottom app bar you'll see a tap target for search filter.

Once you filter your search and are on a new location swipe again from the bottom and tap 'Near Foo' from the app bar at the top.

This will take you back to the hub populated with your new location and nearby cities.

Search filtering from the hub is coming soon but we didn't have time to get it in the first release.

Thanks again!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The experience he had trying to save the Word doc looks exactly like me every time I have to set up "Windows Live" inside a PC game.

Has anyone else tried the SRT? This post alone is enough to scare me away.

<comment><USER18> I haven't tried the Surface RT specifically, but assuming it's the same or similar to the Windows 8 / Office 13 preview, the flow he clicked on looks like he was trying to save something to his Microsoft acct / skydrive (which is actually much better integrated into the File menu than it used to be), but I can imagine it is way overwhelming compared to the old-school save dialog...

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Ahh, so they made Word behave like it does on OS X. Standardization.

<comment><USER20> A funny response (truly), but Office on OS X (which I use extensively) never lags like that for me, even on older Mac hardware (Core Duo from 2006 or so).

<comment><USER21> True. But, anecdotally, I never leave Office programs running, because they seem to chew thru my battery. I like Entourage better than Mail.app, but use Mail.app because it sips battery.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> To me, the user experience issues are the biggest failures of all:

        - A mail app that opens to a completely blank screen with no cues on how
          to continue.
        - An infinite login dialog that doesn't allow you to cancel and back out.

Wanting software that offers a pleasant and intuitive user experience doesn't mean that you want software that's dumbed down for grandma, and I'm sad that people are portraying it that way.

I've read my share of man pages and hand written my Xorg.confs many times in previous lives, I'm no stranger to complex and arcane software setup procedures.

But in 2012, in the world of smartphones and tablets, this is stuff that should _just work_. The answer to "the mail app is completely blank on launch" shouldn't be "sorry, you failed to read the manual". Ever.

And while I greatly respect Microsoft's attempt at entering this market, someone on their team, at some point, had to look at these issues[1] and say, "okay, this software is ready to ship anyway". That does not bode well.

[1] The alternative, I suppose, is that no one noticed. Which is even worse.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> An old post from an ex-Microsoftie, which might explain some of this Windows RT mess:

[http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows- phon...](http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phone-update- only-going-out-to-unlocked-phones/#comment-7276)

</comment><comment><USER23> I posted about this before:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871>

and I still think it is true... IMO Microsoft made a mistake by leading out with the RT. Leading with the Pro and then offering the RT as a feature- reduced lower cost version would have cut down on the confusion as to what RT really is and lessened the initial impression that the Windows 8 experience is kind of underwhelming.

<comment><USER24> they want to fill the microsoft store.. so they wanted to get the rt version first.. and frankly no one will pay attention if any of the OEMs release an RT tablet/laptop.. simply, they wanted a successful RT tablet.. they decided to do it themselves..

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is off topic but, compare this review to the one written by Marco Arment and you will know the difference between constructive criticism and fanboy- ism.

<comment> X-Istence Marco Arment was more showcasing the differences between the Apple store and the Microsoft store. At the Apple store I can be left alone by simply walking up to a display and playing with a device. Maybe a sales person will come up to me and ask me if they can help me, let them know that I am just checking things out and they leave.

At the Microsoft store you can't get a single moment of privacy with a device to play with it. The sales person will continue to talk, they will take over from whatever you are trying to do/play with, they want to discuss specs, they want to showcase very specific pieces of technology, they never leave you alone, even if you end up straight up asking.

Granted, Marco's post was slanted in that he is an developer for the Apple eco-system, but that doesn't mean that his post didn't contain the truth. I myself have experienced exactly that at the Microsoft stores. They try to hard to copy the Apple stores, but fall hard.

<comment><USER26> I was just at a Microsoft store this morning and I did not find the above experience to be true at all. In fact when I stopped by the Apple store the staff was much more intrusive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The advice to "wait for the one due in a few months _that needs a fan_ " makes me wonder if this author's sweet spot for tablets is anywhere near mine. I hate fans. (And does such advice mean the author is _literally_ a fan-boy? A fan-fan-boy?)

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. When I say wait for the one with a fan, I'm just giving guidance to people who really want the Windows experience. I hate fans too.

<comment><USER27> Sure, I understand you weren't touting the fan itself as a benefit and I appreciated your overall writeup. I just had to share my double-take at seeing the ideas "will have a fan" and "worth waiting for" so close together.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> He seems to be using the Surface RT in desktop mode in that video. I thought this was not supposed to be possible, is that untrue?

<comment><USER29> It currently exists for Office, because it isn't fully ported to Metro yet.

<comment><USER30> To be fair, it's not as if the Office team had a heads up that a table would be sold with marketing specifically explaining that it runs Office, whilst simultaneously being sold on the new Modern UI. Oh, wait, my mistake.

<comment><USER15> The Office team is notorious for getting their way inside MS, from what I understand. Which could very well include "we won't be touching WinRT with a 40 foot pole".

More practically speaking, "portable" is a word that I highly doubt describes the Office codebase. If there's a team working on a Metro version, I do not envy them at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> The lag in Word is more likely caused by an option that makes Office use accelerated graphics. I don't know why this option even exists - I've yet to see someone liking how typing in Office applications works with it being on...

<comment><USER32> Shouldn't accelerated graphics result in screen redraws that are... faster?

<comment><USER33> Usually accelerated graphics are pretty bad at adding new stuff, due to the overhead of moving things from cpu to gpu. Instead they are crazy fast at drawing the same stuff over and over again with slight modifications by simply rotating and moving the already loaded objects.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> > I think the kickstand angle was designed for airplane use by short people, > because the screen hardly goes back at all.

Huh, in the Anandtech review they thought the kickstand worked well everywhere _except_ airplanes.

<comment><USER18> He mentions that this again is only for short people, aka he would have liked for it to tilt back further (see comments about the camera angle)

<comment><USER35> But usually taller people will have longer hands as well. That would increase the distance of the keyboard from the user's body and so the angle should still work.

<comment><USER36> He addressed that issue here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767>

He is tall, 6'3", but moving the surface away form him enough results in it being too far away to type.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I think it's great to see MS trying something new and exploring interfaces that aren't just a rip-off or evolution of Apple designs.

</comment><comment><USER38> Quote: "The problem with Windows "apps" is that they are made inefficient and un-optimized by default"

As a WIN32 developer for the last ten years I would have to agree that a good bit of software today for Windows lacks performance. Why ? IMO a lot has to do with mindset of not only developers, but also those who produce the programming languages developers use. I would venture to say that most programmers would admit that the computer they develop on is likely a more advanced computer than most mass market PC's. They like i5 or i7 CPU's, 8,16 or more gigs of memory, SSD's, etc. The mass market PC though, to be affordable comes far less equipped. This is why when I write software, my development PC is closer to a more mass market PC. I need to feel the problems with performance the moment I compile and run. Now if you write apps which run fast on a slow PC, imagine how they will run on the higher end devices.

</comment><comment><USER39> I am extremely happy with the surface RT and more specifically IE10. Finally a desktop class browser on a tablet.

<comment><USER40> Is safari on the iPad not desktop class?

<comment><USER41> I'm a little confused by this, yes. If anything, mobile Safari and Chrome for Android are more desktop-like than IE10 on WinRT; they have tab bars, and so forth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Hi everyone. The author brings up great points and its really important for MSFT to address the kickstand's adjustability or even adjust the camera angle automatically. Regarding the other points of the author, i think he should install the updates after which Office RT becomes a productivity beast. Also, there is one aspect of the surface and windows 8 in general nobody has touched in this whole thread which is smartGlass. Coupled with Xbox, this device becomes a wonderful companion to the vastly improved xbox-kinect bundle and so far, i really don't have any complaints about it except the fact that i can't code on it although someone mentioned csc works on it sans some dlls.

</comment><comment><USER43> What genius decided RT was a good name? Honestly.

</comment><comment><USER44> I love my surface, and I have no slowdown in Word and OneNote after installing the 600MB or so update. I have a touch keyboard.

What I'm disappointed about is that the bottom edge of the glass is not completely flat. This shows poor build quality, and I expected at least Apple quality from this device. I also tried a second one, and it also has non flat glass on the bottom edge. All the demo units had this problem too. Try reflecting a straight line on that part of the screen and you will know what I mean. It does bug me a bit because I expect a high standard for a $600 ARM tablet.

</comment><comment><USER45> We did a review of the surface tablet here - [http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the- micr...](http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-microsoft- surface-rt-windows-8-tablet/)

also vs the ipad 3 here - [http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader- videos/microsoft-s...](http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader- videos/microsoft-surface-vs-apple-ipad-3/)

the pro might be a better investment, but most of the apps crash/buggy, not really worth being an early adopter with this product.

</comment><comment><USER46> From the comments:

 _> I admit, I fully expected a tablet version of my laptop. I wanted it to do everything my laptop could do, but with the added bonus of the touch screen, so I can play my games that make my phone freeze up while I'm sitting at my kids dance or karate classes._

If you're technically savvy enough to understand and follow focus of GUI elements, and don't mind a stylus, then there are a number of existing tablets that will fit this bill. In fact, they've been around since ~2000.

<comment><USER47> Yes, laptop tablets have a touch screen, but they are really just not the same thing. Have you used one much? Unless they've made huge progress in the last few years, a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today.

<comment><USER46> Have you used an early 2000's stylus tablet like a tc1100? I'm talking about those, not touch screen laptops.

[http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_...](http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_small.jpg)

 _> a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today._

Please re-read. I am saying exactly this. The only way they are alike is they are somewhat in the same class of portability. The tc1100 is a beast at 3 pounds, but you can actually watch YouTube and browse the web in bed with one. I know, because I've done it. Doesn't work for the general public because ordinary people can't keep track of GUI item focus.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I was excited when I heard Microsoft was making a tablet and entering this market. Apple doesn't face any strong competition in this market, and because they are so far ahead of their nearest rival (Samsung?) they don't really need to innovate for a cycle or two, and their designs could stagnate.

But the Surface will not be true competition to Apple. This product fails in too many ways, and I predict that the iPad will remain dominant for at least a few years to come.

</comment><comment><USER49> I was thinking of making this my next PC purchase, but after watching a video in this blog post I see i would be forced to use the touchscreen as there is not a built in trackpad on that cover/keyboard thing.

Overall the design looked cool, as I am interested in tablet with an attached keyboard with a trackpad. Though I want a tablet/PC type of device that allows me to use it as a tablet or a PC laptop. I guess the Surface is not what I imagined.

<comment><USER15> Except it does have a trackpad. It's right there below the spacebar. It's tiny, but it's there and it works.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Bugginess and software weirdness aside, the thing that struck me as most awkward is the keyboard/touch interface paradigm. It required him floating his entire arm to reach out and touch specific dialogues. This seems like a huge sacrifice of touch precision and a strain on your arm. I predict that most people get a Bluetooth mouse for it and use it in either laptop mode or tablet mode - not a combination of both.

<comment><USER11> I've heard that complaint (gorilla arm) as a big detractor for touch-based user interfaces, but it didn't bother me much when I was using it. The biggest change was that I had to adapt - I'm so used to using the touchpad, but the touchpad on the Surface RT keyboards is just too small. It's easier to point and touch the screen, and it wasn't too uncomfortable. I'm already used to using tablets, though, so I might not be the best person to answer that.

My bigger concern was the very tiny touch points on the dialogs, especially in Office. I repeatedly touched the wrong spots, wrong options, opened the wrong folders in Explorer, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Biggest issue so far for me with Surface's WinRT - no alternative browsers, so no Adblock. I can't believe this is what the desktop web really looks like.

</comment><comment><USER52> Welcome to the life of an early adopter. It is a bit buggier than we'd like, but you know we'll receive updates before the year is up that will address a lot of the problems. I do wish that it could've been shipped with higher performance, but Windows on ARM was a big endeavor. Achieving the amount of polish that we see on Intel's chips is going to take a bit of time.

</comment><comment><USER53> I bought one of those Microsoft touch mice. I was getting ready to install the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and after watching the video, it looked like a great option...and simultaneously, my Logitech Mouse had a dying mosfet switch so I was in the market for a new mouse anyway. [Really, I wasn't just rationalizing buying sexy technology].

It wasn't the first time I've bough I Microsoft mouse. I bought one back about a decade or so ago when another Logitech mouse died. It suffered the same fate as the Microsoft touch mouse. It was returned to the store and exchanged for another Logitech - for exactly the same reason.

Neither was acceptable for my workflow. Unsurprisingly, I spend a meaningful amount of time using CAD/BIM software. The touch mouse zoomed in when I adjusted my grip ("drawing" with a mouse largely involves holding it). There was no way to program the gestures. Likewise, the earlier Microsoft mouse had lots of buttons, but no way to program the middle button as a middle button - as an early "many button" mouse, the middle button had some dedicated function and I had about a decade of muscle memory and projects to push out the door.

The author is experiencing the same thing. The new device isn't tailored to his workflow. It probably isn't reasonable to expect it to be. It's competitors aren't; most people don't have a similar workflow; and it's still version one of the software (Word for RT).

This doesn't excuse the devices performance. But it also puts the author's experience in perspective. Right now, he's somewhat of an edge use case.

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. I'd be really curious to hear which portions of my experience are edge cases - typing in Word, using the camera, and checking my email don't seem out of the mainstream to me on a tablet whose main market purports to be workers.

<comment><USER53> The reality of the current market is that slates are media consumption devices, not laptop replacements - in so far as one uses their laptop for productivity.

A person who types frequently enough, fast enough, and in sufficient quantity to experience a bottle neck with Windows RT's version of Word as a critical purchase feature, is an edge case...or rather not part of the targeted market segment at this time. This is little different from Apple's segmentation between iPad and Macbook Air.

Microsoft appears to recognize this. Hence, the "pro" version in the pipeline, and which you are considering as better suited to your workflow.

Windows Surface RT is targeted as an alternative to an iPad. Configuration issues are a one time pain. New software may not work any better than iTunes. The solution to gorilla arms may not be ideal for everyone. The question is, are they good enough to make it a general success?

<comment><USER54> > The reality of the current market is that slates are media consumption > devices

This isn't true, especially for tablets with 10" screen-size. The "media creation" apps are there, in Apple's App Store, and on Google Play, and people buy them and use them. My tablet has totally replaced the roll of journals, planners, and notebooks. I do all my UI sketches on my iPad, wite my school assignments, take my notes, keep my journal, etc. And millions of other people do the same on these devices; or at least they want to: Creation apps sell.

> A person who types frequently enough, fast enough, and in sufficient > quantity to experience a bottle neck with Windows RT's version of Word as a > critical purchase feature, is an edge case...or rather not part of the > targeted market segment at this time.

No, Microsoft is marketing the Surface as an iPad alternative that can Do Buisness Things: It's got a USB port, and it runs Real Office.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Still waiting on decent linux-capable tablets...

<comment><USER7> Already here:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0>

However, I would wait at least for Cortex A15 chips to arrive, especially if you're going to want to use Unity, which isn't exactly a race horse on PC's either. I'm sure Canonical will port Ubuntu to the upcoming Nexus 10, too.

</comment></comment><comment> pedro-alejandro People are using the surface primarily without a mouse, the way a tablet is supposed to be used. Yet there's still so many tiny touch targets all over the place when classic Windows stuff pops up. I cringe when I see video reviews of people trying to laser-tap these and miss a few times until they get it.

</comment><comment><USER56> And this is one of the reasons I despise modal dialogs _of all kinds_ : [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wwhv8U614Vo&t=2m10s)

When they go bad, they're catastrophically bad.

</comment><comment><USER57> I played with Microsoft Surface and my problem with it is that IT IS A LAPTOP. The interface is pretty much made for laptop (you need to have keyboard), and size is a little too big for tablet. It is not something I might be using while watching TV.

It is weird combo of laptop and tablet.

</comment><comment><USER58> tl;dr - microsoft word on a brand new cpu architecture, ui style and input system is a bit laggy.

<comment><USER59> Also, you can get locked in the save dialog and can't recover your document in Word. This seems more serious than the lag.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> In the email video he could be seen typing his password. Even though you cannot see the actual keys the reflection gives some idea about what is being pressed. Do you think you could guess his password from that?

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. I use Google's app-specific passwords and I've already disabled my Surface RT passwords when I boxed it back up this morning. I salute you though!

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists thus preventing typewriter jamming. Perhaps MS should redesign it again to make it even slower, so the Surface would be able to keep up?

<comment><USER62> QWERTY wasn't designed to slow down typists it was designed to speed up typist by preventing jams.

<http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html>

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> Brent, thanks for this. It is odd because Windows 8 Pro is really smooth. Lets hope someone at Microsoft gets a hold of this and they release an update sooner-then-later.

</comment><comment><USER64> I don't think his post and reason are highly analytic. Rather its result of working so hard to find out even smallest issue with Microsoft's new product No product are perfect in that regard. Remember first iPhone ? first Android ? first iPad ?

Camera viewpoint doesn't cover your face when you put tablet on kickstand mode? put it little away. what's wrong. Other leading tablets in market doesn't even have one. Its been stated design wonder along with cover with keyboard. Should appreciate instead.

All issues noted in this article are exaggeration except the live sign-in bug while saving office doc.

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. "Even the smallest issue" - errr, if the big selling point of the tablet is the keyboard, and Word can't keep up with me typing, that's not a small issue for me. I can understand how it would be a small issue for most folks, because most folks don't use tablets for Office. I wanted this tablet because it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet.

If I move the tablet far enough away that I'm in the picture, then I can't touch the keyboard. That's a problem.

<comment><USER64> "Can you honestly tell us you watched the videos?" \- Yes I did. But my main point is, the post, isn't kinda review. Kickstand issue and mail app issues , isn't that big to be dither about. Approach to response should be more sort of balanced rather than fault-finding and whining.

" it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet." \- But that doesn't mean that we should expect powerhouse performance and after all its RT. Wait for pro if you want that performance. At least it is doing something better than other competition? No one can deny that its better in terms of "work-ready" than iPad or Android tab. Instead of whining about small issues why can't be appreciate what they are trying to build ?

"They are not competing against first generation offering. This is not some child thats needs love and support. This is a commercial product from a for- profit company at a high price." \- Its something like complaining why new hybrid car in market not running x miles at xx speed , when a company brings new hybrid car in market at the time every car maker are busy making gas cars.

There are lots of thing promising about Surface. USB port, Smart Glass, Solid hardware, Office etc. Following is the post I would call more natural balanced response. [http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft- surface-f...](http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-for- me/)

There are flaws out there. But which product in world don't have them. Are they something, which you can claim that, you are returning your product for ?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> So...this is a good opportunity to write a word processing app for the Windows 8 store. Score! It's well known what people like with those...

</comment><comment><USER66> I hope someone works around the UEFI secure boot soon, I would be very interested in having this as a Linux tablet.

</comment><comment><USER67> I hope he's changed his password. In one of the vids it's fairly easy to workout what he was typing to login.

</comment><comment><USER68> It's as if the author really hurried to return the device so that he can write the blog article. Insane.

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. I'm heading out on a two week road trip to speak at a few conferences. I hurried to get the device usable before I fly out to Vegas on Sunday for DevConnections, and I started putting it through its paces right away. I wanted to feel confident that I'd be able to rely on it as a backup presentation device and leave my iPad at home. After the 2-week road trip, I'm home for a few days, then out of the country for vacation. I wouldn't be able to return the Surface easily over the next month, so that's why I made the decision to bail.

Plus, I gotta be honest - I don't think there's going to be a resale value for these, so I didn't want to take a $200-$300 bath by selling it on eBay in a couple of months.

<comment><USER68> A lot of reasons but none of those are related to the device itself. I think it's fairly obvious that you could have waited a while and the software (!) problems you experienced would be fixed with an update. I think you just originally wanted to write a negative blog post about "returning the device". Weird.

<comment><USER69> So in other words, the Surface wasn't ready...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> Update of Office for final version was available at the day of launch. Why you did not install it?

</comment><comment><USER71> This is the risk you take by being an early adopter.

<comment><USER40> ... of hardware and software that is not ready for prime time.

How disappointed were buyers of the iPhone or iPad 1 ?

Not, I think.

<comment><USER68> I for one was very disappointed in iPad 1. Your point?

<comment><USER40> What specifically about the iPad was disappointed you?

Was it a) because it was not quite ready for prime time, and subsequent updates fixed it, or was it b) because it simply didn't (and still doesn't) have features you wanted?

When the answer is a), that shows a product was rushed and not ready i.e. the Surface RT from the sounds of this review.

<comment><USER68> I don't think the choices you offer me are mutually exclusive. A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features. The first iPad seemed very polished: I could scroll the screen and it was super smooth. It's just that I wanted to do much more than scroll the screen super smoothly. I still have an iPad but I use a Chromebook much more. Makes so much more sense even though it has a very plastic and may seem "rushed" to some, it works for me.

<comment><USER40> > A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features.

I agree, when those features are (were) available and cost effective at the time of release, AND they are in fact added at a later date, which somewhat proves they probably should have been added in the first place.

i.e. Complaining the first iPad was "rushed" because it didn't include 4G/LTE is nonsense.

By that measure, I honestly can't think of an Apple product in the last 5 years that was "rushed", where-as it seems the Surface RT was/is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> I want a video of people using these as _lap_ tops. That's my biggest fear about springing for something like these.

Even RT could be tolerable with the right apps as a remote machine with that keyboard, similar to what people do with Android+Transformer. I can program on it, work on remote machines.

That having been said, assuming it's somewhat usable on a lap, I'll wait for the Pro too, I have several things that need x86.

<comment><USER73> > I want a video of people using these as laptops.

Isn't it exactly what he's doing in the videos?

edit: the second videos (saving a document in word) also makes many tap target seem laughably small compared to... the guy's fingers to start with. Am I dreaming?

<comment><USER11> Brent the author here. Yes, the Office tap targets are indeed laughably small. I recorded a few versions of these videos trying to get the taps right. I didn't want to upload those because it would look like I'm purposely trying to tap in the wrong places, and then I'd get flamed for that - when in reality, the targets are just too small.

<comment><USER74> I've been using Windows RT and the Office preview for months, and I still have to try to hit the click targets very carefully. I usually end up using my pinky, which is still not 100%

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro.

This is a Surface Pro, which has not been released yet. Slowness is totally understandable because that guy installed an OS X on an iPad, which is the same thing as using Win8 full desktop environment on Surface RT hardware.

<comment><USER76> You are wrong. windows RT includes the desktop environment but you can't install any new apps to it - all you have is Office and Explorer.

<http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8>

<http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review></comment></comment>


.ng is the most dangerous cctld - <AUTHOR> http://www.nairaland.com/1638377/ng-most-dangerous-cctld-all/

<comment><USER2> Wow, way to miss the point, people. It's not about the price, but the fact that people are being robbed of their domains.

<comment><USER3> You get robbed, and then you get robbed again.

Then again, is this any surprise in a country like Nigeria? That country has a long, long way to go to claw its way from the absolute worst in terms of corruption.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Sad story. I'd avoid a number of African TLDs, to be honest. Remember the .ly fiasco a couple years back[1]

[1] [http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2010/10/the-ly-domain-space- to-b...](http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2010/10/the-ly-domain-space-to-be- considered-unsafe/)

<comment><USER5> Using a domain from an oppressive nation always seemed weird to me. Both in terms of censorship/hijacking risk, but also simply funding them. .ly is one of the classics there, but not the only one.

<comment><USER6> Also, the NIC in Libya threatened several times claiming that .ly domains had to fall within Sharia. I can guarantee that most bit.ly URLs rarely fell under that requirement.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Embarrassing stuff.

It is sad that only negative/stereotypical stories from Nigeria seem to make it to the front page of HN.

As you see on the comment in the thread, Nigerians are against this behavior. I had 2 domains taken from me too ironically one was takeaway.com.ng.

I believe that there a procedures for this to be sorted out ICANN I believe is the arbiter of these types of issues. I would encourage the victim to follow such process. Perhaps someone here can suggest how such cases can/have been dealt with.

I'd like to stress again that this is a rogue incident and not normal like a few of the stereotypical comments below will want to make you believe.

<comment><USER8> It's happened to you too... Not really a rogue incident if it's common.

<comment><USER7> Yes. In 2009. I have bought a large number since then without any issues.

I believe there is a rogue employee there. Did not have the energy to pursue it.

What I'm saying is that it is not an official policy. Lack of governance and follow up like the guy who is the subject of this thread.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I guess this proves that there's a cosmic sense of humor? The ISO codes when parceled out pre-Internet ended up giving the most valuable (in English) Internet domain suffixes to some of the least stable countries (ly for Libya, sy for Syria, and so forth).

<comment><USER10> I am not a native English speaker. Could you elaborate a bit, why those domain suffixes are so valuable in English?

<comment><USER11> Because they allow a domain holder to be creative.

.ly matches the ly suffix in English for example. So, thus you have adf.ly ... adfly.

<comment><USER12> Your example doesn't demonstrate the ly suffix in English, incidental.ly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > _although .ng is the most expensive cctld of all cctlds($100 usd per > year),but it is the most dangerous cctld of all cctlds._

.nr is $500 USD a year.

[http://www.cenpac.net.nr/dns/index.html](http://www.cenpac.net.nr/dns/index.html)

I've dealt with them before. You really, really don't want to.

<comment><USER14> The European obscure domains can be pretty expensive too, but far more stable.

.sm for San Marino is GBP 225 per year with Gandi

<comment><USER15> (San Marino - Merino is a kind of wool - fascinating place: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino) )

<comment><USER16> How are the sheep/wool relevant to the country?

<comment><USER14> Diet, climate, veterinary differences.

Going back to bicycles, Brooks of England only use leather from Italy as they discovered that modern veterinary practices were focusing so heavily on meat production for the animals that the animals were producing a thinner and more brittle leather that didn't age well and had more imperfections.

Brooks saddles require a thick leather, single piece with virtually no defects. So they had to find a source of leather where the primary use of the animal was the hide and food and other products were secondary.

Fascinating stuff. Beyond particular breeds of livestock, it's about their environment, the country laws relating to veterinary practises and handling, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Sketchy Internet behavior from Nigeria? Astonishing.

</comment><comment><USER18> That...was painful to read.

</comment><comment><USER19> Can we get a TLDR?

It's not that it was too long - it's more that it was just illegible.

<comment><USER20> ICANN is acting as a TLDR, if you're interested.

<comment><USER21> Have they proposed .tldr yet?

</comment></comment></comment><comment> robinson-wall .ng is not the most expensive cctld

Off the top of my head I can think of .rw, which costs €220/yr (~$300) to foreign purchasers from one of the few registrars that provide it.

<comment><USER22> my guess is that it's the "most expensive" because you register, you pay, and then it gets seized and resold without your knowledge and without a way to appeal it. The author said games.ng got sold for 10,000USD/year (which WOULD make it the most expensive).

I think the seizure adds to the price. Imagine ycombinator.com or even reddit.com sold to the highest bidder? Millions in damages.

<comment><USER23> How stupid would you have to be, to pay $10,000 for a domain stolen from the rightful owner, when they could just turn around and steal it back from you?

<comment><USER24> *Assuming you knew it was stolen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Kind of relevant: the new TLD '.rich' is more expensive- $1,769.61 on Gandi. This is not a CCTLD, though.

</comment><comment><USER26> Related: Counterexamples of good ccTLDs: [https://gun.io/blog/secure-your- domain-where-is-safe-to-regi...](https://gun.io/blog/secure-your-domain-where- is-safe-to-register-a-domain-name/)

<comment><USER27> Two years later, they might want to reconsider the .is TLD. It's about $50/year and open to international folks, however they do have some unique NS requirements[1].

[1] [http://www.isnic.is/en/domain/req](http://www.isnic.is/en/domain/req)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> As others pointed out, .ng is not the most expensive but I believe the most expensive is not .rw, or .nr but .ki at $1500/yr.

</comment><comment><USER29> Actually .ki is the most (made stupidly) expensive tld: $1,000 - $1,400/yr

</comment><comment><USER30> Guys, it's Nigeria, what did you expect from a country that punishes being gay with imprisonment?

<comment><USER31> Off-topic much?

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Kiribati is about $1500 year (though fluctuates on exchange rate and registrar)

</comment><comment><USER33> Well Nigeria is a pretty dangerous country, I guess it's "normal" that it is in cyberspace too.

<comment><USER34> That's a wrong and bogus thing to say.

<comment><USER35> Why?

<comment><USER7> You do not make blatant negative statements about a country without backing it up. That's why.

<comment><USER36> You need a source that Nigeria is a dangerous country? I didn't think this was a contentious claim, but for an easy go-to lets use the US State Department's travel warnings.

[http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/ni...](http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/nigeria.html)

[http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarn...](http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/nigeria- travel-warning.html)

NIRA is an org in a developing nation full of violence. The idea of conducting a business transaction with them over the internet from another country and expecting everything to be on the up and up is such privileged nonsense I've broken my personal embargo on using that word.

<comment><USER7> If you read further, you would see that it is the North Eastern part of Nigeria that has a violence issue. [http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarn...](http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/nigeria- travel-warning.html)

Chicago has a lot of violence. I would not go a day say America is a dangerous nation.

It fits the stereotype you crave for. Congratulations.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What would you expect to see in a programming language website? - <AUTHOR> I am creating a website template for a programming language.
What features or characteristics do you expect to see in a programming language site? Are there sites you think make good examples from an information point of view?
What features outside the core language documentation are useful? For example: success stories, who's using the language, case studies, upcoming events, links to talks, articles etc.
What about the visual design? I feel visual design is important, but that doesn't mean a heavy, bloated site or one which is visually overload. Something simple but pleasant.
Thoughts appreciated :-) <comment><USER2> What does this language do better than other languages? What can I do with this language more easily? Where is it most useful?

A really useful programming language website would present a medium-sized project, showing the strengths and weaknesses of the language. For example, you could show how Conway's Game of Life would be written in your language -- including graphics and parallelism.

Good luck with your website and your new language!</comment>


Missing elements of Google anlaytics? - <AUTHOR> What are the missing elements in Google analytics ? Which feature users would be ready to pay for in analytics? <comment><USER2> Automatic filtering of ghost (spam) traffic.

</comment><comment><USER3> [http://clicky.com/compare/](http://clicky.com/compare/)

</comment><comment><USER4> keywords showing up, visibility of direct.

competitive analysis. But remember there are other tools like Similar Web.

</comment><comment><USER5> Simplicity. It's become such a behemoth that it can be a bit unwieldy for new users.</comment>


Ask HN: Do you code on personal/side projects during breaks at work? - <AUTHOR>

Just wondering about this. Work+commute time ensures that I don't get home on weekdays with plenty of hours left and I am one of those who needs at least 7 hours of sleep at night or I am a zombie in the morning. So all nighters are kinda tough.<p>Do you code on personal/side projects while at work but during lunch/break time ? What are the legal implications if any ? <comment><USER2> I wouldn't recommend this unless you get written approval from your boss/legal dept/president, OR you leave the office for lunch and do your coding at a cafe/restaurant.

Many companies include language in the employee agreement stating anything you write on company time or company hardware is theirs.

</comment><comment><USER3> Your employer will own your code if you do this.

<comment><USER4> To be more precise: you open up _very serious_ IP ownership issues if you do this. It would scare most investors away very quickly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Sleep earlier. Work on your own thing before you head in to your job. Take a couple weeks off for a workcation. Work on the weekends.

</comment><comment><USER5> Yes.</comment>


A unique war gaming exercise allows girls to be generals for a day - <AUTHOR> https://www.npr.org/2019/07/25/744193558/can-this-group-of-teen-girls-save-the-world-from-nuclear-war <comment><USER2> Take your daughter to war day.</comment>


Good or bad, here are 4 new hacker TV shows debuted in 2015 - <AUTHOR> http://blog.cloudbric.com/2015/07/good-or-bad-here-are-4-new-hacker-tv.html

<comment><USER2> I'll create a GUI interface using Visual Basic... See if I can track an IP address.</comment>


NASA Engineers Resurrect And Test F-1 Engine Gas Generator - <AUTHOR> http://www.space-travel.com/reports/NASA_Engineers_Resurrect_And_Test_Mighty_F1_Engine_Gas_Generator_999.html

<comment><USER3> This article reads like some kind of sad science fiction scenario.

A team of scientists today reported the first results from their analysis of the "F-1 Engine", an artefact from the First Empire which was serendipitously discovered last year in nearly pristine condition in the storeroom of a museum. Although the documentation meant to accompany the engine has long been lost, the team is confident that they can apply recently developed scanning techniques to discover how it worked. These engines were said to be capable of developing an incredible 1.5 million pounds of thrust, and were instrumental in powering the First Empire's legendary voyages of exploration. It is hoped that the knowledge recovered from this engine will eventually enable the construction of similar devices.

<comment><USER4> It does a bit, but on a positive note the documentation _does_ still exist and they had a few engines to work from, including one perfectly preserved example. NASA has done well.

Long term, I'd hope and expect the Library of Congress to take over the storage and maintenance of documentation and artefacts relating to major public engineering works, so people can at least go back to the source to re- learn the lessons of the past.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's so scary to read an article like this and realise how much engineering knowledge retires each year. Problem solving skills that were honed in the Second World War and sent mankind to the Moon and built so many factories just isn't being replaced.

Those young engineers couldn't just pick up the phone and talk to the engineers who made the engine and that's potentially a real problem for our culture.

The obvious solution is that staff need to document what they did and why they did it. So that those who come after can read it and understand. We all know it's necessary and so few companies seem to have it as part of their procedures. Corporations don't seem to be able to plan for more than 5 or 10 years in advance.

</comment><comment><USER4> That is kind of a beast: the part they're excited about test firing - <USER2> generates 31,000lb of thrust - is just the motor for the _fuel pump_ for the main engine!

<comment><USER6> As a side note, the main engine generated around 1,500,000lb of thrust!

<comment><USER4> I know! I am a twelve year old boy again; had a great morning reading up on this.

(There is a downside to being a child again: I have a strong urge to cheapen this by saying something like, "That's almost enough to lift your momma off the couch.")

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> At the Stennis Space Center in Mississippi you can sit in the cone of this engine. They have a couple of the Saturn and Space Shuttle engines on display in front of the museum. The Stennis Space Center was considered the life blood of the NASA program by Wernher Von Braun where his office was located. The rocket testing platforms are really impressive.

</comment><comment><USER8> So why doesn't NASA just rebuild the F-1 engines instead of spending (5 or 10 years?) designing brand new rockets?

<comment><USER9> If you're referring to the Space Launch System --- the Congressionally mandated program to build another launch vehicle with the Saturn V's capacity --- Congress has mandated that that should instead try to reuse technology from the shuttle program. But at this point, the "reuse" is looking a lot more like "redesign" --- the solid boosters changed most of the key components (casings, seals, propellants), and it isn't yet clear how much the "cheap, expendable variant" of the Space Shuttle Main Engine will have in common with its original variant.

There's some grumbling in space activist circles that the mandate is, at least in part, designed to keep federal money flowing towards the contractors for the Shuttle propulsion systems.

(That said, building a new Saturn V isn't as easy as dusting off the blueprints. Some aspects of the design would _have_ to change --- there are places where the originals used asbestos, for example. And the plant where the first stage was build has since been reconfigured so that it can no longer handle anything that diameter. But there's a lot less technical voodoo involved than for that SSME refit...)

<comment><USER10> > _Some aspects of the design would have to change --- there are places where > the originals used asbestos, for example._

As far as space stuff is concerned, would that sort of consideration actually be made? If there is something actually better than asbestos I am sure they would use that instead, but if asbestos is the best material for the job is its danger really in the same league with the rest of rocketry? I mean, they still use hydrazine...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Why doesn't spacex use this engine instead of making their own? Why doesn't NASA just bring back this engine?

<comment><USER11> I'd take this article with a grain of salt. It has a very hand-wavy feel to it.

It's my understanding that the SpaceX team draws at least some inspiration from the F-1 design. There's a mention of the F-1 under the Merlin 1D section of this Wikipedia article:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(rocket_engine_family)#M...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_\(rocket_engine_family\)#Merlin_Vacuum_.281D.29)

The next time Elon Musk does an AMA (or something similar), I'd love for someone to ask him about the F-1. It would surprise me if every rocket engine designed since the F-1 simply ignored all previous designs. We may not have a complete, detailed understanding of the design, but the article comes across a bit on the "breathless amazement" side of things.

A lot of the comments here follow a common pattern where a layperson looks at a system and makes seemingly rational comments, but in reality they have an inadequate understanding to even form a relevant opinion.

I certainly don't have enough understanding of rocket engine design to hold an opinion. Even after reading that piece, I must consider the source and the tone of the article. Also keep in mind that programs within NASA are, in essence, in competition with companies like SpaceX.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Amazing. But the lost knowledge really drives home the need for thorough documentation. Not only of the artifacts but also the design processes used.

</comment><comment><USER13> Every time when a company resurects old hardware/software puts a nail in progress coffin.

<comment><USER4> No. Have you heard the expression, "Standing on the shoulders of giants?" It means that we build on what has come before. That only works if you don't lose what you've already done. Every time a company forgets its past achievements we take two steps backwards.

In this specific example there is a tremendous amount of large-engine experience wrapped up in the F1. These engineers are trying to learn from that to help design the next generation of big engines. Ignoring the work done on the F1 - failing to resurrect it - would force them to make the same expensive mistakes as their predecessors. And that, more than anything, will put a nail in progress's coffin.

<comment><USER14> It's a good thing there aren't a lot of patents in the space industry, or aren't enforced as heavily as they could be.

<comment><USER4> I'm not sure whether it was possible for the private companies contracted by the space program to patent their publicly-funded work.

Interesting to see what happens now that private enterprise is running its own programs alongside the government. I believe there will be a distinct chilling of relations between the main private players in a few years, once their main competition becomes each other rather than the government.

<comment><USER10> I am not sure it is possible for private companies to patent rocket work, with help from the public or otherwise. Rocket technology is heavily export controlled.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> If Lori Garver becomes the administrator, this giant rocket to nowhere cargo cult could finally end.

<comment><USER15> I was clearly too short because of the downvotes.

The problem here is that there is no good reason to build this large rocket. There are already rockets capable of launching humans and lunar expeditions into space from American soil. NASA and the government are wasting precious resources by duplicating that capability.

The usual justification given is that big rockets are needed for lunar expeditions. But that is not correct - you can easily just launch more of already existing rockets. Apollo only used Saturn V since there was so little time and so little experience in orbital rendezvous, which turned out to be possible quite easily. There's also a reason why the Saturn V was not flown beyond the Skylab mission or why no more were built. It was just too expensive and only few payloads would justify using it.

If american space policy was more rational, it could achieve much more in a shorter period of time.

In an industrial sense, the F-1 tests are always interesting and probably don't cost a lot of money. The engine was not that advanced, a normal, if big, gas generator kerosene engine.

The same "ancient artifacts", could be said from the NK-33 engines, that were built in the seventies in the Soviet Union but are going to fly this year in Orbital Science's brand new Antares rocket to resupply the ISS. The engines are still state of the art high pressure oxidizer rich staged combustion with thrust to weight rates of around 100.

In what other field can you reach such levels of technological advance that they stand unsurpassed forty years later?</comment></comment>


Front end engineer is the best job in America in 2020 according to Glassdoor - <AUTHOR> https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Best-Jobs-in-America-LST_KQ0,20.htm <comment><USER2> It has the most openings however it's an area where there is more age discrimination. If you're over 30 it might not be the best choice</comment>


What makes something secure?  - <AUTHOR> http://gwan.ch/blog/20120420.html

<comment><USER3> Companies that speak about certainty and their server being the fastest, need to take the time to make sure it is.

[http://simonhf.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/g-wan-versus-sxe- hel...](http://simonhf.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/g-wan-versus-sxe-hello-world/) is a benchmark showing sxe, using gwan's benchmark code, as outperforming gwan 1.8x.

Years ago, there were two very fast servers - Zeus and Tux. Tux was a kernel mode accelerator that avoided context switches and Zeus was the de-facto standard of 'fastest userspace webserver'.

Chromium X-15 came along but skipped a few compatibility features, and was labelled 'faster than tux, but in userspace'. Tornado did something similar, very narrow purpose, but, as they started to bolt on all of the pesky RFC stuff, became a top-midline application server.

While GWAN is certainly fast, but not fastest at running its own benchmark, their boasts will ultimately affect public opinion. Language is a barrier - perhaps some of their boastful attitude is merely rough translation.

GWAN's use case basically works around almost every webserver's dream - <USER2> cores = odd setups to take advantage of those cores through cpu/irq affinity, etc. GWAN handles that out of the box which is a definite advantage.

If you needed an app to do some calculations and hand back results with the least hardware possible, GWAN would be a top contender. Hardware is still fairly inexpensive that it would take a rather large company that would be able to take true advantage of the cost savings of reducing their hardware outlay based on GWAN's scaling.

</comment><comment><USER4> G-WAN.. secure.. oh wait!

[http://lonewolfer.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/intermezzo- about-...](http://lonewolfer.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/intermezzo-about- stability-and-compliance-part-2/)

and official response:

<http://gwan.ch/en_timeline.html>

Search for "New serve cache.c", as page does not have any anchors (and forbids selecting text too).

In current post he also claims "Since 2009, the year of its first public release, no parsing vulnerability of the HTTP protocol has beed found in G-WAN", which is wrong.

Also, you can read official author statement about open source and security: [http://forum.gwan.com/index.php?p=/discussion/106/open- sourc...](http://forum.gwan.com/index.php?p=/discussion/106/open-source/p1)

Quote:

      2) Security would be better ensured when you have the scrutiny of other experts
      You mean, those experts who publish products that are full of security holes?
      "Sturgeon was an optimist. Way more than 90% of code is crap" (Al viro)
      Or those other experts who write reports about how to do it right?

</comment><comment><USER5> I benchmarked a bunch of web servers a few years ago and, in the process, heard of GWAN. It seemed ridiculously fast, but also seemed quite limited. Can anyone tell me when I would use GWAN? The description of GWAN lacked a features-functions-benefits breakdown so I wound up avoiding it because I was uncertain of its strengths/weaknesses. That said, it's fast enough to make me wonder what other web servers are missing...

</comment><comment><USER6> A few WTFs:

In 3 years nobody has found a vulnerability so you can be certain we are secure

Furthermore the homepage seems to make the claim that it will make legacy code transparently scale to parallel multiprocessor systems.

This really raised my snake-oil detector

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't really understand what this is, he is comparing it to nginx but it doesn't seem to be on the same level, is this a webserver that you stick in front of your application like you would do with nginx?

</comment><comment><USER8> As a budding developer, how should I begin going through the things I create and making them more secure.

In other words, what gives me the most added security for my time spent working on it?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm a fan of his closing statement, though this sticks in particular:

"...there is room for indisputable certainty, that is, initial choices that make unexpected events harmless."

I also code by the ideal that you should have a fine line between expected and unexpected behavior, and generally avoid tacking on special cases as your needs grow. Of course, various realistic constraints make can make this difficult, but that's why it's an "ideal". :-D

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Spell 'seasoned' properly.</comment>


Art Is a Better Investment Than Your Blue-Chip Stocks–and It Looks Nicer, Too - <AUTHOR> https://robbreport.com/shelter/art-collectibles/investing-art-stock-2874901/ <comment><USER2> "Looking at the past 18 years, Artnet's index of the 10 top-performing artists produced a 7 percent compound annual growth rate (or CAGR), beating the 3.7 percent for the S&P 500."

This statistic is misleading unless the top-performing artists were identified 18 years ago.</comment>


Ask HN: Other cofounders want to split an office? - <AUTHOR> My cofounder Steve and I are looking to rent a small private office, but we only need it 1-2 days a week. I imagine this is a common problem among early stage cofounders...we feel safe around each other even during covid, but collaboration & velocity suffer with zero IRL time.
We found a few spaces for $150-300 per day of the week (if split). Open to anywhere between SF and Palo Alto. You can email me directly: kyleatoutofoffice.app <comment><USER2> I have an alternative plan. Get a hotel room. You can book it by the day, it is cleaned every day, and most hotels are now offering day-time only packages that people use as offices. As a plus you earn points and you can pick a new location anytime you want. The front desk may also be willing to store flip charts, markers, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good idea. I've seen a few places doing this around the country (although in SF almost all hotels are unable to open). Hilton in Ohio charges $69/day though, and that's more expensive than a private shared office would be

<comment><USER2> Oh I didn't know bay area hotels were closed. But on the cost since they only need it a few days a week, I don't think the cost would be that high and is easier and more sanitary than trying to share one.

<comment><AUTHOR> True, the cleaning could be challenging. Surprised I haven't heard of a startup offering mobile deep cleaning/sanitation. Could make a killing right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> You may have to think a bit outside the box to make this cheaper and easier. I have seen it done by just asking people with offices near the two of you to let you rent office space from their offices. Many places may have surplus space. Not sure of your exact location since you did not mention it but even a super small studio apartment or backhouse on a month to month basis would end up cheaper in most places.

<comment><AUTHOR> +1

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Just want to say: this post is a great way to do user research

</comment><comment><USER5> Have you considered the possibility of finding a larger company or startup in the area with extra space, and then renting out space from them for the 1-2 days per week? It might be easier than finding someone else to split an office space with.

<comment><AUTHOR> Haven't tried that yet. My assumption is that most companies would be worried about security/privacy OR just not be motivated by a few hundred bucks

<comment><USER6> Not to mention liability. What if you get injured in that office. Who is liable ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Seems like we need something like a "split" lease – doesn't really exist for offices like it does for apartments.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


A Few Thoughts on Investing and the Ego Bubble - <AUTHOR> http://davenetics.com/2010/09/a-few-thoughts-on-angel-investing-and-the-ego-bubble/

<comment><USER2> I was at a Seth Godin seminar the other day and what I got out of it was that success will come to those that CARE. Reading this post, you can tell he cares. I am 2000 miles outside the valley but I am starting to see who cares and who doesn't.

Care about the little guy, care about the entrepreneur, care about making a difference and changing the world. Everyone only gets one go, if yours is going pretty well already then help someone else.</comment>


Zero or five? - <AUTHOR> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2009/01/last_friday_a_p.html <comment><USER2> This article seems to gloss over or misrepresent an important distinction. It's not that MS fails to conform to web standards. Surely the problem is that MS _extends_ those standards, and then people create web sites and web pages that use those extensions. Thus it becomes necessary to use IE to view those sites, even though MS has conformed to all standards.

The problem is those who create web sites that require the MS extensions to IE, and no amount of legislation is going to solve that one. Do we want suppliers such as MS, Google, Opera, _etc,_ to stop enhancing their browser's capabilities?</comment>


Copper – Password-free signup for your product - <AUTHOR> https://withcopper.com/ <comment><USER2> I love what they're going for! However, I really don't think that text messages are the future. Looking at things like WhatsApp, iMessage, FB Messenger and others, a company like Apple will probably drop support for them very soon. A possible fix for this would be to support 2FA apps like Google Authenticator for communicating those codes. If not, I'm more than sure that Apple will release some kind of API for services that allows us to send messages...

</comment><comment><USER3> The code entry form is 100% broken on safari [1]. It lets me type a number, then deletes it.

The cursor doesn't move to the next field, and the number I did type flashes in and then disappears.

[1]: Version 9.1.1 (11601.6.17)

</comment><comment><USER4> Super cool. Looking forward to trying this out for a future project</comment>


If you want to earn more, work less - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170112-if-you-want-to-earn-more-work-less <comment><USER2> Ever since graduating from college, I've adhered to one principle: I only work for employers who either 1) value output, not seat time, or 2) who explicitly require 40 hours a week (no more, no less; this can be an average over the previous year). It's not because I'm not dedicated, or a high performer--in fact, I'd argue my preferences are rooted in actually being a high performer. I know that not much of additional value occurs beyond 40 hours, and I value time beyond that 40 hour mark at an exponentially increasing premium.

So for me, I do a very solid, focused, and productive 40 hours and leave time in life for everything else which matters: family, friends, hobbies, sleep.

I definitely have experienced the judgment of my peers for being so strict about how I work. Even though I do great work, they frequently give me a hard time for, apparently, not being dedicated enough. But isn't that a little ridiculous? When you're an employee, even of a great employer, it's still just a job. If, in that job, you cease to be an asset (no matter the quality of your work, or the number of hours you put in), you will be reassigned or terminated. To me it's idiotic to treat any job as being anything other than that: a job. There's good, interesting jobs with lots of challenges and great pay; there's really horrible jobs which are menial, micromanaged, abusive bosses, with low pay. It's a continuum of jobs, but that's all they are: jobs. It's almost like people are turning work into a religion. Or that there's a belief that if you sacrifice your life, health, etc. for work that you are to be honored and respected. But that's just masochistic.

Work to live, not the other way around.

<comment><USER3> Interesting perspective. I completely agree with most of your sentiments but I just can't shake the feeling that this kind of attitude is much more difficult for people who are non-knowledge workers with more labor intensive work (i.e. cleaning etc).

<comment><USER4> It is absolutely more difficult. It is very easy to wax poetic about the types of jobs one will and will not do when one has job security in the form of many readily available, high-paying jobs. Most are not that lucky and in fact would be grateful to work more hours because it might put them over the threshold to full time and benefits for example.

Others like lawyers, are on a similar situation treadmill tied to hours worked. It is often up or out at big firms, and going up always entails working lots of billable hours. Work fewer hours, make less money and no great future.

Ultimately, the path to success increasingly seems to be freeing yourself from a single entity that controls your pay (i.e. Employer, single client or customer, etc.). From there it is down to finding ways to scale your output beyond your hourly constraint (you only have so many hours in a day you can work, even for high pay) and ways to diversify income to reduce risk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The 'lights out at 10pm' thing at Dentsu has actually been tried before: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWX6--sQtsA](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWX6 --sQtsA)

I'm not sure how useful the Japanese comparison is, to be honest. Japan is so ridiculously out of step with how the rest of the world does things (it's not just the ridiculously long work hours, but the semi-compulsory socializing with colleagues after work) that it probably doesn't tell you very much. Not least because, having worked in a Japanese office, the working environment becomes markedly more relaxed after 6pm anyway (there were beers at my place).

<comment><USER6> This doesn't work in my office. The lights go off at 9pm and the few rare times I've been there myself, the hard workers, self starters, and "getting the job done" people that were still there, kept on working. In the dark. Half the times, I was the first and only person to go hit the buttons to turn the lights back on lol.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have to say this piece is really quite ridiculous.

Japanese workers who work longer hours DO make more.

This is because no one cares (primarily) about worker productivity - they care about being a "team player" & similar intangibles.

Most Japanese salaries are quite low at the beginning and for the early years, but increase over time until at the last part of your career with the company you are living nicely and prepared for retirement.

Team players are promoted. Non-team players are not.

So, for places _outside_ the Japanese corporate world the idea of less hours == more pay may hold true, but in the situation they chose to highlight in the story that is completely wrong. There, you make more over your career by "butt in seat" time, and little else in most cases.

</comment><comment><USER8> The article says Japanese salarymen work themselves to death. Then it says their culture looks down upon people who leave early. Then it goes on to quote an American study that working less hours pays more. Am I the only one seeing the problem here?

<comment><USER9> No, but there's a bigger problem than the mismatched cultural observations made in support of the article's claim that people also miss.

Regardless whether the American experience in the US study applies to the Japanese office, there's a point that remains: while those Japanese might not get promoted or get fired for working less, it would still be better for them to quit their career than work themselves to death.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> From the article -- _" someone who puts in 70 hours doesn't produce anything more with those additional 14 hours"_

This was something I always wondered about at Google. Because you could eat three meals a day there, shower, do your laundry, and nominally sleep[1] does that make their employees that much more expensive than people with out the extra perks?

[1] [http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in- truc...](http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in- parking-lot-2015-10)

<comment><USER9> Those extra percs are insignificant in cost compared to their salaries, that they'd get anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> For all it's outdatedness, Japan is changing (slowly) [1]. The government is instituting new laws that give employees more free time to spend their money. Though it is partially an economy reviving measure for the government, I already see employers setting (sane) hard limits on overtime and pushing employees to use 100% of their paid leave. (Most employees use paid leave very minimally because they don't want to "cause trouble" to their fellow employees who have to cover for them working while they are on leave)

[1] [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-three- day...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-three-day-weekend- company-yahoo-japan-corp-overtime-hours-overwork-dentsu- mintsubishi-a7526101.html)

</comment><comment><USER12> Work smart not hard. Automate everything you can automate. I do this and I routinely finish projects 30% faster than my peers. Another plus is that automation results in less human error.

</comment><comment><USER13> Is their only evidence one line about how people who make more also take more vacation? Correlation != Causation

<comment><USER9> No, but lack of correlation does prove no causation.

So if "more vacation" is not correlated with earning less, one might as well take it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> That's great advice. Everyone release a company wide memo with that text. /s</comment>