CDC gets list of forbidden words - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/cdc-gets-list-of-forbidden-words-fetus-transgender-diversity/2017/12/15/f503837a-e1cf-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html <comment><USER2> If I understand this well, and it's likely I don't, but for the sake of argument assume I do? Then the most important thing to know about this story is that it's about the President's budget document (which is assembled with input from all the Executive Branch departments).

That budget is one of the more elaborate charades in Washington. Congress controls the budget by passing laws allocating funds to departments. The President can't not spend money allocated to those departments. Moreover, the overwhelming majority of the budget goes to stuff that is effectively non- discretionary; for instance, to Medicare and Social Security entitlements spending.

Banning words, and these words in particular, is batshit. I'm probably not alarming many people on HN when I say this is a batshit administration.

But this is about the words the administration is soliciting from a department for an elaborate marketing document. Someone tell me why, apart from the principles and precedents of it all, any of this matters?

<comment><USER3> Because words and the way we use them change the world. HN is probably mainly a place of realism, but social constructs are playing an increasingly effective part in the world of politics.

On top of that it's another level of bullshit that distracts you from all the other terrible things the US government is currently doing. "They are censoring words???" \- mean while the worst tax reform in US history is being passed to increase inequality to revolutionary levels.

<comment><USER4> > _mean while the worst tax reform in US history is being passed to increase > inequality to revolutionary levels._

You may be putting too much credence in the hysterical propaganda that sometimes passes as "news".

<comment><USER3> Being Scandinavian I think I can safely say that I haven't put too much credence into what Americans pass for news. :)

I have studied history and economics though, and typically you wouldn't want inequality to grow too far unless you want a violent redistribution of wealth. Considering America was already collectively crazy enough to elect Trump, I'd hate to see what happens when things get even worse.

<comment><USER5> I totally agree with your assessment and it will get much worse if we do not impeach

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I probably need to preface this comment by making it clear that I'm against banning words and not a fan of Trump.

Banning "fetus" and "transgender" is completely indefensible as they're fairly neutral words with no obvious replacement. But for the rest, imagine that rather than a ban this was a style guide recommending against certain words. The common theme in the rest of them is that they don't convey much useful information but have a strong emotional charge.

You don't need to say something is evidence-based, just show the evidence. Coming right out and saying your position is evidence-based just sounds like a way to shut down any objections, even reasoned discussion, by casting the other side as being against science, evidence, or facts in general. This is similar for science-based, vulnerable, and diversity. If you're seen as being "anti-diversity" your argument doesn't matter because you're a misogynistic racist xenophobe.

Entitlements is charged term because you've cemented your position on social welfare pretty clearly just by referring to them as entitlements. It's not quite as bad as Derry/Londonderry , but it's certainly not neutral.

I don't think any of these words should be banned, but I do think it would be reasonable for government agencies to use neutral language and fully explain their thoughts rather than using emotionally charged buzzwords.

<comment><USER7> > You don't need to say something is evidence-based, just show the evidence.

No, "evidence-based medicine" is a term of art. Maybe you could argue that it took too generic of a name, but that's the word we have. From Wikipedia:

" _Although all medicine based on science has some degree of empirical support_ , EBM goes further, classifying evidence by its epistemologic strength and requiring that only the strongest types (coming from meta- analyses, systematic reviews, and randomized controlled trials) can yield strong recommendations; weaker types (such as from case-control studies) can yield only weak recommendations."

<comment><USER8> As a doctor, it seems to me that at one time (maybe 10 years ago) it had a very specific meaning, but unfortunately the usage has degraded to the point where everything is "evidence based medicine" now, just like everything in business now is a "disruptor" or a "pivot".

<comment><USER9> "If only all medicine were evidence based medicine..." Careful what you wish for, I guess.

<comment><USER10> I just assumed that was the norm and we had terms like "experimental cancer treatment" for when the treatment is so new that we don't have enough evidence to back it up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Censoring the CDC, of all organizations. What a travesty. The entire world looks to the US CDC for guidelines.

Let's be clear: The political right in the US pretends to care about free speech until they get serious political power.

It wasn't too long ago that conservatives were strongly against the depiction of violence and sex in video games.

<comment><USER12> > Censoring the CDC, of all organizations.

This isn't the first time it's happened. The Dickey Amendment in 1996 forced the CDC to stop research on gun-related injuries because the NRA was upset.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_\(1996\))

<comment><USER13> Interestingly that seems to be a result of the CDC's own political leanings. They seemed to pursue the research with an explicit political goal, rather than research the effects of gun violence, and then find a goal[1]. Further, the Dickey amendment doesn't actually force the CDC to avoid researching the issue but rather preventing it from using federal money . to promote gun control:

"none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control"[2]

[1][https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant- tr...](https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/12/why-we-cant-trust-the- cdc-with-gun-research-000340) [2][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_\(1996\))

<comment><USER14> What if it turns out that research suggests gun control is effective in reducing gun violence? Note, I'm not saying that it is effective; I have no dog in this fight and don't know enough. But the law effectively says to the CDC "You're allowed to research this health issue, but if you come to a conclusion that's politically unacceptable, you can't share it."

The result is that the CDC now believes _any_ gun violence research to be likely to result in political reprisal against them come budget time.[1]

1\. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2015/01/14/why- the-cdc-still-isnt-researching-gun-violence-despite-the-ban-being-lifted-two- years-ago/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Comments saying some of these words could be used inappropriately are missing the point.

Fuck, rat bastard, and many other words may not be appropriate for use either. We don't start surgically censoring non-elected, non-party affiliated, government staff for theoretical transgressions.

Let's be evidenced based (sorry), and ask how many times in the past this approach would have helped a CDC situation? At least, a situation that does not divide along political lines.

<comment><USER16> >Fuck

Not the best example. The government censors this word for non government employees (radio, TV).

<comment><USER17> No no no. Fuck is not censored by the US Government. TV and Movie studios censor words themselves with their own Standard and Practices. The idea that there are seven dirty words is a total myth.

There are some FCC standards around TV programming before prime time and safe harbour laws, but in general the reason we don't see tits and hear 'fuck' is more to do with the industry than the government.

<comment><USER16> >Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 1464, prohibits the utterance of any obscene, indecent or profane language by means of radio communication. Consistent with a subsequent statute and court case, the Commission's rules prohibit the broadcast of indecent material during the period of 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. FCC decisions also prohibit the broadcast of profane material between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m. Civil enforcement of these requirements rests with the FCC, and is an important part of the FCC's overall responsibilities. At the same time, the FCC must be mindful of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and Section 326 of the Communications Act, which prohibit the FCC from censoring program material, or interfering with broadcasters' free speech rights.

>Obscene speech is not protected by the First Amendment and broadcasters are prohibited, by statute and regulation, from airing obscene programming at any time.

>The safe harbor refers to the time period between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., local time. During this time period, a station may air indecent and/or profane material. In contrast, there is no safe harbor for the broadcast of obscene material. Obscene material is entitled to no First Amendment protection, and may not be broadcast at any time.

To your point:

>Are there certain words that are always unlawful? No.

[https://www.fcc.gov/reports-research/guides/obscenity- indece...](https://www.fcc.gov/reports-research/guides/obscenity-indecency- profanity-faq)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> That's an unusual way to fight for "free speech" and against "political correctness".

<comment><USER19> 6 months ago:

"Liberal snowflakes on college campuses need safe spaces, what babies! Haha"

Today:

"Hey, so don't use these words specifically, it _may_ upset some people"

The bald-faced hypocrisy is staggering, not surprising, yet still it makes me trip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> How can anybody actually support the current administration if this sort of thing is what is being pushed. how is this improving the world? how is this better? how is this good?

anyone?

<comment><USER21> If I answer truthfully I'm going to be down voted and shamed, so I won't answer.

Instead, I'm going to continue to be part of the silent majority that supports him, but doesn't speak out because we are often falsely labeled as deplorables or worse.

Edit: people like me are what you get when society stifles free speech: unwilling to engage and so continuing in our beliefs silently. maybe you coastal elitists should stop shaming people for having different opinions and mental models of how the world works.

And if you dummies think that speech isn't being stifled, look no further than James Demore being fired for trying to figure out root cause analysis of why there aren't more women in tech

Edit 2: someone is going through my post history and downvoting. Good job, ladies, you're proving my point.

Edit 3: and now I'm not allowed to respond to people because I'm posting "too fast". Great.

<comment><USER22> You're going to be downvoted either way, because a post that just complains about theoretical downvotes gets downvoted on this site. So you might as well take the opportunity to explain.

It's also worth mentioning that the question GP is asking isn't really "how can people support the administration", as there's many, many answers to it. The real question is "how can people support _this_?".

And frankly, enlighten me. Do you support this?

Edit: I should also remind you that Trump is not supported by a "silent majority". Quite the opposite: Trump is supported and was elected by a vocal minority. His approval rating today is the lowest it's ever been according to 538's aggregations. It's time americans get their head out of the sand on this topic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> If your position is righteous and based on facts why would such measures be required? Can someone explain to me how these are actions of well intention and intelligent people?

<comment><USER24> Well, because their position is none of those things.

<comment><USER25> yep, more like a puerile attempt to win the culture wars.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> For fuck sake. What is this? Is there a precedent for this? Have words been banned like this before? If this is legal, I am completely baffled. If it was the standard list of "7 words", I could understand, but this is nuts.

<comment><USER27> Yes, on the state level. Florida banned _climate change_.

[http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article1298372...](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article12983720.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Useless bureaucracy and admin making up their own rules to shove down an agenda down our throats. Right or left, this is wrong and I hope the conservatives and libertarians on this board oppose this. I understand excluding diversity because it gets paraded around everywhere and perhaps is not related to the CDC's budget proposals but the rest are very science based and I'm 90% sure diversity is the most accurate term to describe a lot of health related information.

Linguistics is important, words are important and there is a culture war happening around words politically from both left and right. The left has been far more aggressive, but the last year the right has been doing the same. Diversity, feminism, multiculturalism, globalism, transgenderism have now turned from something neutral/positive to something negative now and synonymous with a negative connotation.

That being said, I'll wait and see why the CDC is doing this. The only word that seems glaringly alarming to me is fetus. Pro or anti-abortion, being able to describe a fetus is mandatory and excluding that might force the CDC to not discuss that aspect with as much detail or even a more nefarious purpose.

Transfenderism is something the left has completely banned any debate about and the right have coined with mockery and derision. Gender dysphoria may be a better word to use, but I wouldn't know because of the extremely politically charged environment. This is also pushing an agenda, but might be the correct term, at least historically in the medical sense, but I'm almost certain it's still pushing down political agenda even if transgenderism is not the correct term to use.

Entitlement, evidence and science based don't make sense to me. Maybe it's too vague sounding and leads to credibility to the layman when there is little? I guess you could make anything sound factually true by using those words but it doesn't make sense why they'd exclude them.

Basically, freedom of speech isn't a left or right issue. Both are guilty and we as Americans should call out any bullshit on both sides because it's a very, very dangerous, slippery slope and I'm glad tbere's an uproar rightfully for this

<comment><USER25> You don't think being able to describe diversity in bacteria cultures is something the CDC might want to do?

<comment><USER28> "I'm 90% sure diversity is the most accurate term to describe a lot of health related information."

I was just posturing on possible reasons for this insanity and that's the best I could come up with which is why I call this BS and completely unacceptable. If anyone had any doubts that this is a "libtard conspiracy" or whatever they say these days, then I outlined possible reasons to support this and then hopefully emphatically repudiated that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> And here I was under the impression that Silicon Valley was the real threat to free speech.

<comment> w-ll They're many fronts attacking the first amendment, both government and corporations. Silicon Valley does not share the idology it once did.

Undoing Net Neutrality is a clear sign of this. It will hurt startups that try and compete in the spaces that Google/Netflix/Spotify occupy before it really hurts consumers. NN cements the current leaders in their position as they can pay the tolls and blocking them would be mass outrage. But gives very little room for a newcomer to compete.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> "If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself." ― George Orwell, 1984

</comment><comment><USER31> Turns out this is all a complete fiction, as far as "forbidden" goes: [https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2017/12/19/fake- news...](https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2017/12/19/fake-news-no- trump-admin-conservatives-at-the-cdc-didnt-try-to-ban-words-like-fetus-and- transgender-n2424580)

There was no ban coming from the administration, but a strategy coming from inside CDC to avoid these words so that their proposals would go more smoothly with Republican congressmen.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think what strikes me most about this is how incredibly dumb it is. This is clearly meant to be a strike in the culture wars, but has really awful repercussions. Imagine not being able to use phrases like "experiments done in mice fetuses", "effects of entitlements on disease propagation", or "diversity of bacteria found in culture samples". This is ridiculous and borders on inhibiting the CDC from being able to do its job.

</comment><comment><USER32> Banning a word like "evidence-based" implies - don't look at the evidence - just believe what I say. Thats the Trump method. It's not the scientific method. This ban goes against freedom of speech.

</comment><comment><USER33> Wow. Another ever-more-crazy story out of the US. As the page was loading, I first thought the story's title was "Democracy Dies in Darkness" but then realized that's the Washington Post's motto...

</comment><comment><USER34> _The forbidden words are "vulnerable," "entitlement," "diversity," "transgender," "fetus," "evidence-based" and "science-based."_

This administration is using _1984_ as a how-to manual.

<comment><USER17> We've been in 1984 for much longer than this administration and the previous and the one before that. We've been in Orwell's world longer than I've been alive and longer than my parents have been alive.

Obama spent ever day of his tenure at war and bombing people with drones. Bill Clinton was very anti-immigration. Web and Rupert revealed how the CIA was funneling cocaine into the US from South and Central America.

This has been happening a long time. President Twitter's idiocy is just batshit insane enough that people yell about it now, but it's all there to make us angry and mad at one another. This is just another thing to make us angry. We are in the 24/7 hate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Wow.

Scientific censorship in the US.

I'm speechless.

</comment><comment><USER36> This gives me ungood bellyfeel.

</comment><comment><USER37> FTA: "Instead of 'science-based' or 'evidence-based,' the suggested phrase is 'CDC bases its recommendations on science _in consideration with_ [sic] _community standards and wishes_ ,' the person said." [Emphasis added.]

Assuming this is accurate, we should contact the Nobel Prize committee, because clearly the Trump administration has figured out how to make viruses and bacteria also take "community standards and wishes" into account.

</comment><comment><USER38> All that I can see as a result is that people will just get out the thesaurus and find equivalents/"euphemisms" \-- not exactly the same, but "close enough for government work" (no pun intended)... I see mentions of 1984 in the comments, but realistically, if you look at history it seems that attempts at controlling what thoughts people can express have only been met with opposing creativity to great success.

<comment><USER39> Which does not slim the imbecility of this ban in any way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> If only George Carlin were still alive. I'm sure he'd have seven words to use to respond to this...

</comment><comment><USER39> Announcing moon missions and starting to ban reasoning with science within one week...

</comment><comment><USER41> Haha! I'd appreciate such regulations for startup pitches by blacklisting phrases like "deep learning", "blockchain-based", "disruptive", "fast-moving", "lean".</comment>


Show HN: Justapor - Explore the world through beautiful photos.   - <AUTHOR> http://justapor.com

<comment><USER2> Excellent presentation! Though I would definitely consider underlining 'web browsers', instead of italics. It took me a minute or two of clicking back and forth between the app store and the website to find where I could use the application via my browser..

</comment><comment><USER3> Pretty sweet gestures controls in this app, if you don't have a iOS device, you can play around with their web interface: [http://www.justapor.com/bigpicture/tour-de-france-100th- edit...](http://www.justapor.com/bigpicture/tour-de-france-100th-edition-part- two)

</comment><comment><USER4> Fantastic!

</comment><comment><USER5> Love the photos!

</comment><comment><USER6> Awesome!</comment>


Apple Hires AI and Deep Learning Expert Ian Goodfellow - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/04/apple-hires-ai-expert-ian-goodfellow-from-google.html <comment><USER2> Apple can probably poach all the AI people that don't want to work for a weapons contractor. Doubt Apple's going to be moving beyond consumer products anytime soon.

<comment><USER3> I hope they do. More job openings for me since I don't mind working for a weapons contractor.

<comment><USER4> You're going to slot in for Ian Goodfellow?

<comment><USER5> Nothing wrong with trying to punch above your weight class.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't work at FAANG, but the general sense I get is that while there is no doubt top DL talent that should command mid six to seven figure salaries, it seems that with AI programs stuffed at both the undergrad and grad levels that things should cool off eventually.

More broadly, does success in academia usually translate to delivering business value? Are these companies betting on these researchers to come up with the next great DL architecture?

<comment><USER7> I'm not in academia or at a FAANG, but I think that talented professors should always have applicable skills. A professor successfully running a research lab is basically running a small company. They need to raise grant money, and then deliver results, all while needing to mentor their employees. Because most of their workers will be students and leave after graduation.

So if you define top talent to be research lab or publication success I think that top talent will always be attractive corporate RD, assuming there's a match in the research area. I don't really know how these companies are evaluating their RD, so delivering business value is another question.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting when taking their other recent hire into consideration: [https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1122410_apple-hires- away...](https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1122410_apple-hires-away-teslas- powertrain-chief)

<comment><USER9> Or an even more relevant recent hire: [https://www.apple.com/leadership/john- giannandrea/](https://www.apple.com/leadership/john-giannandrea/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> someone once told me you can coast forever after a big hit in the tech world. doesn't seem to be the case these days unless you jump from ship to ship.

<comment><AUTHOR> there's probably a correlation somewhere there. Usually if you do a big hit in the tech world, you have hard work in your DNA.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Still won't help. Simple fact of life is: to attract research talent you have to let your researchers publish (and not anonymously like they started doing recently, but under their own names), and afford them considerable freedom in what to publish. There's no way in hell Apple will do that, with or without Goodfellow. Good for Ian, I suppose, but Apple will continue to languish in AI until it reconsiders its stolid, old fashioned ways (and/or starts paying crazy money to researchers so publishing ceases to matter as much).

<comment><USER12> eh honestly a lot AI people might give up publishing for a little while to work with/around goodfellow.

<comment><USER11> Why give up _anything_ and not go to e.g. Google Brain or FAIR or MSR instead? All three labs have dozens of people of comparable caliber _each_. At this point Apple is starting at a massive disadvantage, and they'd need to offer a radically better game to catch up. Which is something they aren't prepared to do.

<comment><USER12> If your researched is focused on Gans/adversarial stuff the specificity of working with goodfellow might out-weigh some other concerns. Also-hey-I'm not trying to make this tradeoff. I am just saying I can imagine someone else choosing to do so.

personally if I had offer from Google/MSR I'd take it over apple but I'd much rather work for apple than facebook even if yann le cunn told me I was cooler than sliced bread.

edit: also re-reading your comment I bet apple is willing to pay that crazy money. Goodfellow probably has compensation in 1-10 million range...

<comment><USER11> 7 figures is table stakes for top people in this field. The question is, what the distribution is like for the kinds of folks they need to hire to get the actual work done.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Until Apple makes ALL of their services cross-platform, it's really hard to justify getting excited. I know in the US Apple has a strong presence, but if they truly want their services to exceed, they will need to go to Windows / Desktop Linux / Web / Android to compete. They were able to do it with Apple Music. Why not with Siri, iMessage, and the slew of new services they've introduced?

<comment><USER14> Why would they do that? I think a core part of their business strategy is creating cool synergies and features between products but restricting those features to Apple devices. It makes consumers buy into the apple ecosystem.

They don't want to support Siri and iMessage on non-apple devices. Those are free services, why would they give them away without requiring you to buy their devices?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Congrats, this must be quite a sum.

</comment><comment><USER16> Apple can't even show my iMessages in chronological order properly. Maybe they can train a neural net to figure it out for them.

</comment><comment><USER17> I wonder if this means that Apple's positioning as the privacy focused choice is coming to an end.

</comment><comment><USER18> Wow. I'm surprised CNBC writes articles about the career movements of "AI and Deep Learning Experts." How many of their readers care about the director- level hires of large tech companies?

<comment><USER19> Many, to answer your question.

<comment><USER18> That doesn't answer my question at all; why the snark?</comment></comment></comment>


Software Engineering should be its own major - <AUTHOR> https://mathpix.com/blog/software-engineering <comment><USER2> Software Engineering is already "it's own major", just not one that's offered at very many universities. Well, at least compared to Computer Science anyway. Here's the list (for the US):

[https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?s=all&p=14.0903](https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?s=all&p=14.0903)</comment>


Microsoft, I Forgive You - <AUTHOR> https://m.signalvnoise.com/microsoft-i-forgive-you-2fb6d6061a2c?source=linkShare-6e71c82557e2-1477582208 <comment><USER2> I felt the same way for years - I was a Slashdotter, used to run a Linux desktop for about a decade and talk about 'MS' and occasionally use a dollar sign. Hey, I was 20, everyone was doing it.

I recently had a conversation about how much I like powershell on HN. Someone called me a 'microshill' and I smiled a smile that comes with age.

<comment><USER3> I use Windows daily, and I'm not sure how to feel when I consider the daily attempts against my choices and privacy. It feels like they try to be nice but unintentionally mess up sometimes.

Feelings aside, they've done solid open source work, quality of which can't be overstated.

But... Powershell, really? The Linux subsystem exists now, you know :)

edit: the Powershell thing was just an opinion tease, come on everyone^^

<comment><USER4> > But... Powershell, really? The Linux subsystem exists now, you know :)

Piping objects is better than parsing text.

<comment><USER5> Every time I fired up powershell to give it a try, I'm always immediately turned off by:

\- How sluggish it feels. A remote bash shell on a raspberry pi feels more responsive to me than a local PS on a beefy PC.

\- The way it is opened as a command prompt, in an unresizeable window (unless you fiddle with the settings every time), with no possibility of using shortcuts for copy/paste.

\- Also, the default color scheme and font is horrible. I'm aware that it is trivial to fix it in the settings, but why turn off immediately first time users ?

For a normal user (not an IT admin) what are the benefits of learning Powershell for normal day use ?

What would be the best place to start, are there some good tutorials ?

<comment><USER6> If you think powershell is slow, try powershell ISE; it's even slower.

Speaking of remote, the whole mechanism of PS remoting has never made sense to me either. It should work like SSH: encrypted interactive session across a well-defined port.

<comment><USER2> Agreed, coming from a Windows background posh remoting is just odd. Thankfully:

        get-packagesource -provider chocolatey

        install-package openssh

It's beta but I use it as a daily driver.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm not sure I feel the same way, and I will probably be downvoted for it.

Microsoft's entire existence is largely based on incredibly aggressive, (perhaps) unethical behavior against its perceived rivals. FUD, threats of litigation and patent extortion, etc. Trying to destroy the entire open source movement. Why do they need forgiveness? They are a profit-seeking entity that has tried to crush many things I hold dear. Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it set out to do long ago. It's only because they failed that we are having this discussion.

<comment><USER8> I agree with the sentiment in the article because of an important point you mentioned:

> Think about where we'd be today if Microsoft actually succeeded in what it > set out to do

As DHH points out; and to a similar vein if we swap Google for Microsoft in your quote above, fragmenting the industry is the safest and best way to serve users. Google seems to have succeeded in it's goal to control the worlds information-- and whether you believe this or no; having 3 powerful entities competing with each other is much better than many small ones trying to dethrone a hostile winner.

Small startups will always try and innovate where they can, but there are now different inroads as a single leader can not always banish them.

I agree with you. I agree on the macro-scale. I do not want one company to have the ability to do the things you mentioned. I am sure Microsoft is doing much of this new initiative out of self-interest, but it is good for the community. I like vscode, they have an extremely easy to use && intuitive Azure interface and a massive amount of open courses and docs on how to use it, and tons of other code, docs, resources ect.

I don't want Amazon to be the only cloud provider.

I don't want google to be the only search engine.

I don't want os x/win to be the only 2 operating systems.

I don't want Apple to be the only vertically integrated handset maker.

I don't want a single option for payment/wallet

I don't want a single app store.

All these things are better addressed when there is competition, and the competition between several large players leaves room for smaller companies to enter and innovate.

<comment><USER9> The difference is, for all those things, there really is viable competition out there.

There's lots of cloud providers besides Amazon (including MS themselves).

There's several search engines besides Google (again including MS's Bing, plus DDG)

Apple isn't the only big handset maker. Samsung probably sells many more units which are arguably much better (they have much better screens for instance, plus SDcard slots). There's many, many more besides them too: Sony, Huawei, LG, etc, and countless models from each.

There's many options for payment besides ApplePay: Google has something, plus you can just use a regular debit or credit card or good ol' cash.

There's more than one app store: Apple has one and Google has one, and there's a few other non-Google Android ones too.

In all these cases, the alternatives aren't some tiny little niche player, they're huge. Apple sells a minority of smartphones today, though they make the most profit.

The big standout is OSes: good luck finding a job that doesn't force you to use Windows. If I want to avoid the big player in each of the other items in your list, it's pretty easy to do. I can easily go without ever using Google Search, or an iPhone, or ApplePay or the Apple app store. It's not that easy for me to avoid having to use Windows; that shuts me out of a LOT of jobs (almost all of them really). (Even worse if I want to avoid using either Windows or OSX. Good luck with that.)

<comment><USER8> I think you missed the point I was making: diversity of ecosystems is important. Microsoft provides diversity to many of the ecosystems above. Having 2-3 competitors is much better than a single one, and Microsoft has shown that they need to win developers by providing value to the community.

I think we agree that diversity is good, I disagree that their is _enough_. OS's might be the _only_ one I think is diversified enough because between Google, Win, OS X & numerous flavors of linux there are a lot of choices. There is also "the web" and Solaris & BSD as well. Google is peerless for search. Leaving aside email, apps & core other services like web infrastructure, there is no replacement for google. It is important to realize that not only is Google peerless, but that all search engines run PageRank. By that I mean, they copy pagerank by creating extremely similar algorithims and using all of the ideas google pioneered. No one has innovated in the search space except google. backlink totals is an utterly meaningless metric and authority/reputation are subjective.

Google has adjusted to their original thesis of course, however everyone else adjusts to google. If you are selling something in a market that speaks English, you want to be at the top of Google. That is it. SEO means google optimization. No one can be better at being google than google, but I would likek to see someone try and be better than them at search.

<comment><USER9> >I think we agree that diversity is good, I disagree that their is enough. OS's might be the only one I think is diversified enough

Here I completely disagree. In practice, there's only 2 PC OSes, the horribly broken and intrusive Win10 and the overpriced walled-garden OS X. Almost no one uses Linux on the desktop; even Linux fans have abandoned it from what I can tell, to my chagrin (they've all gone to Macs). If you're talking server- side, that's different and is really the only place where there's enough diversity IMO.

As for Google being peerless, DDG works fine for me for most things. For programming help, I use Google though. And everyone knows Google totally sucks for porn.... (Bing is the leader here!)

Otherwise, I do agree that diversity is good, but my point before is that there is reasonable diversity in most of those places. I don't feel any kind of compulsion to get an iPhone, for instance. Android works just fine for me and most people I know, and the iPhone users I know all seem to be deluded by Apple's marketing, and also people who really have no business buying the most expensive phone out there considering their finances.

<comment><USER9> Addendum: this isn't to say that I wouldn't welcome more diversity in many places. But it's not like people haven't tried: Microsoft still hasn't quite thrown in the towel with Windows Phone, but it sure never went far. Blackberry used to be a big thing, now it's basically dead. There were some other attempts, like FirefoxOS, Meego/Maemo, etc. which all flopped hard. The problem with a platform is that the things dependent on that platform become powerful, so people choose their platform based on what runs on it. If I want access to all the apps in the Google Play store, I need to run Android, not WinPhone, for instance. The same thing has hampered Linux-on-the-desktop adoption enormously (and not on webservers, since that's all standards-based and frequently uses additional stuff like PHP and MySQL which run great on Linux).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't forgive you.

I don't forgive you for putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen. I don't forgive you for taking away my choice on when I want to update my computer. I don't forgive you for firing your QA team and then using the public as your beta testers. For taking away features in Windows Pro that could force people to upgrade to Enterprise. For us having to pay for support on top of buying your software. For not allowing home users to turn off Telemetry. For all of the product confusion and terrible naming conventions. I won't even go into past practices...

I don't get how years of screwing everybody over can suddenly be turned around with some marketing saying "we <3 linux" and open sourcing a few projects out of desperation. They only <3 Linux because they have to. It's going to take a long time for me to regain their trust.

<comment><USER11> > putting ads on my Start Menu. Or on my lock screen

Anecdotal, but I haven't seen any ads in those places. Been using Win 10 since the preview. I'm not a fan of the "metro" interface/apps. I _am_ a fan of the underlying tech in Windows and the general focus on usability and reliability. My laptop "just works" in every sense of the phrase, and it feels more responsive to my choices and demands than competing platforms (OSX and Ubuntu).

<comment><USER12> There are ads for Microsoft products in the app store and ads for Office on the start menu in "stock" Windows (installed from MSDN ISO - not from a hardware vendor). The lock screen has an (optional?) theme which displays high-res photos from Microsoft. Some of those photos have been game ads.

I personally think it's unobtrusive, but the ads are there.

<comment><USER13> The lock screen is especially annoying. They can show ads fine but it takes several seconds to start accepting input from my keyboard.

<comment><USER11> I don't see the logic of a lock screen. Why doesn't it directly enter my password? Why must I swipe away the wallpaper to access the password box? I mean it's not like my phone that I wake up the laptop just to look at the lock screen notifications. If I wake up my laptop, I'm gonna unlock it! Really dumb ui.

<comment><USER13> Probably because it is the phone UI.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If you'd told me ten years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, you'd have made an enemy.

If you'd told me five years ago that I'd be working for Microsoft today, I'd have laughed at you.

I sometimes still marvel that I work at Microsoft today, and don't hate myself for it. In fact - and it's still a little hard to believe - I really like what Microsoft has become, and I'm excited to contribute to it.

<comment><USER15> I couldn't agree more. When a friend reached out to me about joining him at Microsoft my first response was "thanks but no thanks". He talked me into at least listening to the pitch and it actually worked. Talking with some of the old timers here at Microsoft it sounds like the culture has changed a ton (and is still changing) so hopefully that will continue to trickle down into the products.

<comment><USER16> Are you saying there is no backstabbing anymore? I left Microsoft in 2012 and it was the worst place on the planet ever (granted, Ballmer was still running the show). But can it change that much especially with all the layoffs they do every year on clock basis?

<comment><USER17> Yeah, the Balmer way of evaluation has completely disappeared. SWEs are no longer trying to remain outside the bottom 20% just to stay employed. Everything about evaluation is now centered around getting things done, helping others, and learning from others.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm not on the forgive train yet, but with the Apple computer ecosystem (as in things that look and behave like a PC-esque device) becoming increasingly hostile, I'm actually seriously considering going back to Windows.

The deal breaker is having a unix shell. I have worked on a system with a native unix environment for a decade and a half, going back to to the windows shell is not an option.

Thankfully, the Linux Subsystem for windows works pretty well already and with some further iteration I think it could become viable for most of my development needs.

When that happens I don't feel any loyalty to apple and will happily move over.

<comment><USER19> I'm in the same boat as you. What do you think is still missing in their Linux subsystem? I haven't gotten to play around with it yet, but my list of demands is pretty small:

\- tmux works

\- vim works

\- bash works like on a Mac

<comment><USER20> Processes don't work quite the same. There's no sysv init or systemd. There's not good user separation within the shell (run all as root) and the file permissions in places where the subsystem meet the PC are weird.

Those were my first impressions. I'm cautiously optimistic about it though, and confident they'll work out the kinks with time. But right now it's still better to be on BSD/Mac if you like a unix-like development environment without running linux.

<comment><USER21> I'm curious what your use case for those are.

Are you needing to `init 1` or `systemctl isolate rescue.target`?

Or is it perhaps a need to `systemctl status` on services?

I might just not be that experienced with the wide use-cases for these applications, but what are your hypothetical use cases?

<comment><USER20> Really I just want a way to write simple service scripts and have the OS keep them alive. upstart, sysv init, systemd, whatever works...

I don't like logging into my dev box and then manually starting one-off scripts for all of the services that I like running (docker, dnsmasq, apt- cache, foo.py, etc etc).

<comment><USER22> Then use the Ubuntu-packaged runit or daemontools; or port s6, perp, daemontools-encore, or nosh.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/daemontools-family.html)

I don't know whether the Debian-packaged nosh will install on Ubuntu as it stands.

* [http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/debian-binary-packages.html](http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/debian-binary-packages.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> No, sorry, to paraphrase Richard Gere, this is not a cuddly new Microsoft. Though Windows got downgraded from "the literal bane of that part of my existence that involves interacting with computers" to "death by a thousand paper cuts". File I/O is still slow, process spawning is still slow, Windows 10 is a privacy clusterfuck, and there are endless other annoyances. No thank you, I'll avoid all that if possible and stick with Linux.

I explained it to a friend thus. Imagine living in a world everyone drove a Ford Pinto. You could try driving not-a-Pinto; however, people will look at you funny and your boss may fire you. 99% of auto shops only sell Pinto parts and there are some roads you can't go on, which will shred up your tires because they're not Pinto tires. That was the situation in the Windows 9x era.

Later, after millions of complaints about the Pinto's tendency to explode, Ford Motor company finally issues an upgrade option for the Pinto: the Ford Taurus. You are still expected to drive a Taurus, and to use it for everything, including grand touring, drag racing, and pulling heavy loads. Some Taurus drivers assure me that their modern fuel-injected Taurus engine _really is more powerful_ than the Cummins V8 diesel in my Dodge pickup, but I will treat that story with suspicion until I see Tauruses pulling trailers full of lumber or equipment up grades that the Dodge can't handle, and I haven't seen that yet. But the status quo today is, at least, better than a fucking Pinto.

That's where we are today.

</comment><comment><USER24> Agreed. The Surface Studio looks amazing - I'm not a creative type, so it isn't really designed or intended for me, but boy do I want to play around with one. And the Surface Book also looks phenomenal - when coupled with the Linux subsystem, it could be a machine that does 90% of my daily tasks.

Unfortunately that remaining 10% involves running and debugging sites and apps on iOS, which requires macOS. So I'm still on a Mac for now, but the temptation to get a Hackintosh running inside a VirtualBox VM increases every day...

<comment><USER25> I'm running hackintosh inside virtualbox on Windows 10. Works well but obviously graphics performance is not great cause it's not officially supported. I only use it to debug sites in safari and mobile safari.

<comment><USER24> Yeah, I'm more and more tempted to do it. But I do also debug in XCode, and I have a base resistance to relying on a personal hack project in my professional life.

...but, so tempting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> For all the good steps Microsoft have made recently I still _hate_ that I cannot run Windows 10 how _I_ want.

In the latest version, 1607, I can't even disable the lock screen when I resume from sleep ffs. So frustrating.

</comment><comment><USER27> I don't need to forgive Microsoft. I moved to GNU/Linux (Debian, thank you very much) and never looked back.

All the drama regarding forced updates, stealing user bandwidth, etc. does not affect me personally. But it does prove that once an abuser, always an abuser.

Once the dust settles on .NET, I may take a serious look at it. That doesn't need me to forgive or trust Microsoft, since I can study the source code and do whatever I want with it.

Once I learn how to set up my own reliable email server, I plan to dump GMail, as well.

Edit: typo

</comment><comment><USER28> Funnily enough, I am a lifelong Microsoft Windows user who only recently switched to Linux because I got _fed up_ with Microsoft's continued W10 bull __ __.

</comment><comment><USER29> But what about infamous Win10 data collection, forced updates, etc.?

<comment><USER30> There are ways to block them. I use all of the following Netlimiter, Glasswire, Spybot Anti-Beacon, disable Windows Update service (though it has a habit of turning itself back on) and finally, Du Meter (This is the most important. The network toolbar alerts me when something's downloading without my permission)

<comment><USER31> This is the Windows equivalent of the stereotypical Linux over-complicated advice like "oh that's easy, just build from source but set the following compiler flags..."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> It is all about choices. As long as you know that alternatives exist, all is fine. But for many people, there only is the Windows world. Or OSX. This is how i don't want it to be for my children.

See...

I have been using Linux since 1999, exclusively since 2001, this includes home and also business. Yes, there are lots of win specific software, but you know, wine got so much better over the years, if really needed i can use VM and as last resort, even reboot to win7.

As my kids been growing up, we have played many games on Linux (WOT Blitz, WarThunder, Minecraft... some natively, some via steam, some via wine steam... playonlinux has been interesting too, and not only for games... and i have been amazed that all this has been possible. This all on a mid range laptop randomly purchased, with full hardware support, touchscreen, sleeping/resuming... you name it.

And my kids are proud to use Linux, knowing there are many people contributing, rather then promoting large company, who, besides other bad stuff, has been known for making fake police reports on stolen software in this country.

So this is a good story, good experience. Certainly possible on any platform, but sometimes good platforms are tainted by bad companies.

</comment><comment><USER33> I used to always "wince" when I had to use Windows or other Microsoft software. Now, Windows 10 is an absolute dream over previous versions, Office is pretty much second to none, and Microsoft's initiatives into hardware (Halolens) are pretty damn awesome. I'd say the company has made me into a non-hater again.

<comment><USER34> Funnily enough I had the opposite transition. Sorta. I didn't mind Windows 7 so much, but Windows 10's user hostile behaviour makes me wince every time I have to use it. And I have to use it for work because of Microsoft's own hostile decisions (Skype for Linux can no longer do group video calls? Seriously!?!).

I start a freshly installed Windows 10 instance on a desktop grade i7 with Nvidia 960M and it takes minutes for me to be able to even type in the search bar, ... because Windows decided to commandeer all my disk IO for Windows Updates that I can't disable. At least Windows 7 acquiesced to my wishes.

<comment><USER35> Skype on Windows shows Ads now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I think, based on my history, a lot of people would call me a shill, but I still think it's important to stress the company is not perfect. There are still question about the data collection in Windows 10 and the company still does collect payments from Android vendors for the patents it owns.

There's still some elements of the "Evil Empire" left, but overall, from a development and consumer device perspective, they do seem to be taking notes of what's working in the market.

<comment><USER37> It seems to me like if Microsoft would take a step back on telemetry and cumulative forced updates, they'd have pretty much a home run. But it seems like they're just outright ignoring any feedback on both issues until the issues magically go away or stop talking about it.

<comment><USER36> I'm honestly willing to give a pass on the forced updates. It's a hard place, as most people will never run updates, and we end up with botnets taking down Dyn. The downside, of course, is the debacle with the anniversary update. I wish they had a better update process..

The telemetry, on the hand, really does need to be a lot more transparent and much easier to opt out of...

<comment><USER37> I understand it for consumers. If it was Home edition only, fine. The problem is when Microsoft issues a cumulative update that A. fixes a critical vulnerability and B. breaks network printing, as an IT administrator I have to decide whether I want to leave a gaping security hole in our network until Microsoft fixes the printing issue, or push the update and break everyone's workflow until Microsoft fixes the printing issue.

In the past, I'd simply hold the update that breaks network printing, and push the security update.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Whoa, didn't see this coming. During the event yesterday I was tweeting back and forth with some people about what Microsoft's future prospects look like, and someone said they're doomed because they'll never get developers back, specifically citing DHH's "real programmers don't use Windows" rant. At the time I thought it was time to re-examine that rant and maybe see if DHH was wrong, but it looks like the guy himself beat us to the punch.

</comment><comment><USER39> I was close to forgiving them, but I'm holding onto my grudge because of forced automatic updates.

<comment><USER40> Are you REALLY SURE you don't want to switch to Edge?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I've felt similarly about Microsoft. I disliked their strategy and their taste for a long time. But I found their Surface Book announcement compelling and so I bought one. It went through some bumps and hiccups, and it still isn't as smooth as I would like, but it gave me the drawing experience I really wanted. I still think a Surface Pro 4 with a cellular modem built in would be killer. So if you're listening Surface team, go talk to the Nokia guys you bought and get the radio/antenna from the Lumia series phones and find some place to stick it inside your tablet please!

</comment><comment><USER42> On topic of "new Microsoft", has anyone spent decent time with the Linux Subsystem for Windows 10?

I've been slowly putting it through its paces for my (admittedly simple) dev workflows, which mostly involves web development tools like PHP, Ruby, git and node-based toolchains, but so far it has been a pretty good experience..

<comment><USER43> I second that. Have mostly been playing with it on some toy projects of mine but works very well. Two main gripes:

1\. Filesystem performance is _very_ slow (ie. anything in /mnt), but I know they're working on it

2\. I really wish I could get constant updates for WSL without having to opt- in to the Windows Insider Program. There are things I know are already fixed but I don't want to risk the whole OS just to play with an updated BashOnWindows.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I might be willing to forgive (not forget) but not while MS is doubling down with the "telemetry", ignoring privacy, forcing their corporate choices, and in bed with government divisions of ill repute.

</comment><comment><USER45> The console/terminal/command prompt/whatever is still hot garbage. I recently installed Bash for Windows on my Windows 10 laptop excited that maybe I could use it for dev again. Nope, uses the same terrible console that has been in Windows since they dropped DOS.

If they really want to go after devs this needs to be an "all hands on deck" thing they fix. Stop everything you are doing and focus exclusively on this. Don't try to make incremental improvements to the existing terminal; start from scratch.

Here are some requirements:

1) Copy/paste must just work like it does in all other app. Including selection.

2) Standard menus, not right-click on the window chrome and "Properties".

3) Has to look decent by default. Not 8px fonts. Not 0px padding. Not a scrollbar before there's anything to scroll. Make it look decent.

4) Tabs

That's it! I (and no one else) cares if its embeddable or not, just make a terminal that is decent, like Terminal.app (which I don't use but is fine).

PS: Please do not reply with command prompt wrappers that try to fix these issues. I've seen them all and they aren't good enough (through no fault of their own, they have to work with the command prompt).

<comment><USER22> It's a console.

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-cli-is-not-a-dos-prompt.html)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console....](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.html)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/tui-console-and-terminal-paradigms.html)

The sad thing is that the Interix subsystem _did_ improve on the console, giving it a far more complete terminal emulation for starters, and _Microsoft owns it_. The WSL did not build upon this.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11581935)

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/interix-terminal-type.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Around three generations of users only know one kind of computer. These are the people that hate computers.

Because _Excel_. Because _Abort, Retry, or Fail_ [0]. Because software(license)-limited number of concurrent connections.

Because they delayed the release of features to maximize profit.

The world is in a mess today. I don't have a crystal ball, I don't know if we'd be better or worse off if we'd had machines that were only limited by hardware, not software, for all these years...

But I'll stand my ground, hold my grudge, just in case, thank you very much. _Somebody_ 's got to keep an eye on them.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot the footnote!

0: ARF would be great if there were any practical difference between Abort and Fail... When you pick one or the other, a different errno is sent back to the application. The application then could take a different path... Just like a "Restart" in Common Lisp. However, MS's own flagship applications abstained from such behavior, again missing an opportunity to demonstrate, to teach...

</comment><comment><USER47> I'm not ready to forgive yet. There are very few places I can buy a computer with Linux preinstalled, and too much Linux-unfriendly hardware, and I still wonder when the UEFI hammer will fall.

</comment><comment><USER48> I have a windows 10 vm .. it applies updates every week that force me to restart. No thanks.

<comment><USER49> I have MacBookPro with macOS - it applies updates every week that force me to restart...

And...?

<comment><USER50> You can turn those off, or ignore them. Either way.

Windows, by default, will kill your machine and reboot it to apply patches, will install them when shutting down, and generally goes out of its way to be as annoying as possible. You can turn this off, but it's a lot harder to disable all the update settings.

<comment><USER49> how "harder" is it on Windows?

<comment><USER50> There's several options to disable, whereas on macOS there's basically one.

The other problem is some of the Windows options are pretty buried, that Control Panel is turning into a toxic waste dump.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> My Surface Book is by far the nicest piece of hardware I've ever used. It does everything, and is beautiful to boot.

</comment><comment><USER52> I can let bygones be bygones on the whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows, but I just cannot get over the whole gathering of data they do and the choices they have taken away from Windows 10 Pro. The only version that really can have all of the stuff turned off is the Enterprise edition which I cannot buy. If they got rid of the BS phone home stuff, I would forgive. Until then, its just the same old crud modernized to do it the Advertising way.

<comment><USER53> > whole paying for Windows when I wasn't buying the machine to run Windows

I can't get past that. Not only did they crush several companies trying to sell _better software_ , but Gates gets to whitewash his reputation by spending the stolen money instead of rotting in a cage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> I can't help but want to be on the opposite side of whatever this guy is talking about. His belief in the objective correctness of his own opinions rivals Stallman's.

<comment><USER55> That's an extremely subjective, irrational perspective, isn't it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> So DHH basically hates whoever is the successful one at the time, I guess (or two).

Seems like the majority of the rest of the internet as well. Haters gonna hate, for all time.

<comment><USER57> Easy to do: "power corrupts..." and such.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> This is just flat out wrong. Microsoft has improved a lot and is doing some cool stuff but they are still doing horrible shady things too.

Windows 10 installs with very invasive default settings, and updates have re- enabled those invasive settings, requiring users to be aware of that and go in and turn them off again.

I applaud the moves to Open Source and standardization. But they have further to go before I would call them a "puppy".

</comment><comment><USER59> Microsoft, if you open source Windows plus whatever SDK du jour (Win32, Win64, et al) you want me to code against such that I can build from source where all your telemetry and other "advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers" nonsense are ripped the F--- out, THEN you'll get juuuust enough dispensation from me that when you die you won't go to hell, just purgatory.

Forgiveness? Dream on.

</comment><comment> happy-go-lucky Linux is by programmers, for programmers, and also for power users who are programmers in the making.

Windows' target audience is average users and these users are their main source of revenue. A while ago, I said in another thread that their open source efforts are a means to an end and nothing else. I also see their recent subsystem for Linux as an halfhearted effort.

</comment><comment><USER60> I barely use Windows these days, mostly Mac and Linux both at work and at home. I'm interested in the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 but haven't had time to look at it. I'd like to believe that Microsoft is now a cuddly Teddy bear, but the strong arm tactics around Windows 10 updates and the International Harvester attitude about my personal data have been very off putting. Sadly, Apple is getting arrogant about updates as well, spamming me constantly about upgrading my phone to iOS 10. If they would both back off on some of that, I'd be a lot happier.

Having said that, the video I watched yesterday of the Surface Studio presentation was really impressive and I'm sure the content creation people will love it. Apple seems to have decided that they no longer care about that market, one they used to own. I'm saddened by that.

Edit: I especially liked the 3:2 aspect of the Studio screen! 16:9 is not the One True Aspect Ratio!

<comment> UK-AL The vast majority of iOS (popular)apps also have telemetry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> No matter who wrote this post, what it says, or what the people here say in the comments this will always read as viral marketing as if people are paid to praise microsoft.

It's a consequence of the fact I'm now wired to expect it, because these companies have big budgets and actually do spend their money on astroturfing.

</comment><comment><USER62> I think there's tremendous untapped potential in an easel-like all in one workstation PC. I would love to make a serious stats package that has a round- trip visual editor that generates code. For certain things that are very process oriented, why aren't we making live diagrams of this stuff and letting users edit those with large touchscreens?

(Disclosure: I once worked for a successful company that did this with something as complex as energy scheduling, though it wasn't round trip. (Didn't need to be.) I know that you can build useful, orthogonal, and darn useful diagrams that allow one to do serious work.)

</comment><comment><USER63> I think their most egregious sin revolves around document formats. Their mendacity in pretending to support Open Standards while doing the exact opposite was serious Dr. Evil shit.

</comment><comment><USER64> I think what has happened is Microsoft was perceived to be evil because they held what was thought to be a monopoly and people don't like companies being in that position, it makes them feel like they are always being screwed. Then Google and Apple usurped them and people rejoiced, only to soon find out the Apple and Google are just as dodgy and monopolistic as Microsoft was.

<comment><USER65> Monopoly in itself is bad for consumers. Google and Apple abuse their monopoly in their specific markets not because they are "just as bad" but because they have monopoly just like Microsoft does in it's own market.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> And i just had to roll back the GPU driver because MS silently upgraded it, in the process nuking my ability to use a external screen...

</comment><comment><USER67> "Tim Sweeney claims that Microsoft will remove Win32, destroy Steam"

[http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now- ti...](http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney- thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/)

<comment><USER37> Tim Sweeney has said this many times, but it's continually not held up. That same month, Microsoft released an update to make it easier to install UWP apps outside the Store. Steam could distribute UWP apps if they wanted to support it.

And Win32 is going nowhere in the next decade, the entire world runs on it, and it's the reason Microsoft is in business.

Tim Sweeney's comments on Windows 10 should almost be entirely dismissed as FUD. We have more pressing issues (telemetry) to worry about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Sure the Hardware is amazing but the OS feels way too much like that slimy car salesman...."trust me, it's the best deal out there".

</comment><comment><USER69> >Besides, the company just isn't scary any more. Or tone-setting. Or, in many areas of past glory, even relevant.

Ironic, considering the author of this article.

</comment><comment><USER35> I'd be happier if I could update my laptop and wife's laptop to be encrypted. It's 2016, that should be in every OS be default.

<comment><USER70> Have you looked into BitLocker?

<comment><USER35> Right, that's the issue though. It's only available on Pro or higher.

<comment><USER70> You are right. That's probably something that would be useful to home users as well. That said, the in-place upgrade to Pro is quite easy in Windows since Vista. In Windows 10 you simply buy it from the Store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Why limit yourself? I have a laptop running Windows. My other laptop simultaneously runs Mac OS and from there I VNC into my linux server.

Know everything.

</comment><comment><USER72> Microsoft needs to seek absolution for forcing people to windows 10. it may be an unforgivable sin

</comment><comment><USER73> While I don't believe in Heaven, I do believe that Bill Gates can buy his way there.

</comment><comment><USER74> It's the same wolf, just got smarter and fancier clothing, old man ...

</comment><comment><USER75> No way. I have a long memory. I'all resist as long as I can.

</comment><comment><USER76> Too soon?

<comment><USER77> How so? They've been releasing a lot of projects as open source over the past few years, and they've been building some pretty cool hardware (Surface, etc). The new CEO does seem like he is pulling things in a better direction than before.

<comment><USER78> vscode has rapidly replaced all other editors I use (still use intellij for everything programming though), its already good and it has the potential to be great, I'm excited about the .net stuff coming to Linux as I loved C# but have been on Linux as developer for well over a decade and the Surface Book is in strong contention for my next laptop.

Given my opinion of them a decade ago they've gone a long way to fix it. I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted.

<comment><USER79> _I loved my 360, was the first time I realised Microsoft could do largely zero hassle devices if they wanted._

Yeah, and then the "new Microsoft" gave us the Xbone (my complaints for which can be found elsewhere on HN), so I don't know that a ten year old console is the best basis for judgement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> >...hoping, jumping, dancing buffoon

Wasn't this too much?

</comment><comment><USER80> Agreed.

</comment><comment><USER81> #ForgiveMicrosoft

</comment><comment><USER81> #ForgiveMicrosft</comment>


Why Doesn't Google Maps Know the Best Way to the Airport - <AUTHOR> https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/10/google-maps-airport-shuttle-directions/543570/ <comment><USER2> I work with making databases that represent transit systems and it's really frustrating trying to make a public transit network that doesn't leave things out. The scheduling and route data is always quite disparate and requires a lot of human time to find, verify and get into the right format.</comment>


Catching SQL errors at build time - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/houqp/sqlvet <comment><USER2> On Microsoft SQL server theres a tool in SQL Server Data Tools called "Database Projects". This lets you have the whole database schema in a file tree that can be compiled into a binary object that the SqlPackage.exe executable can diff or publish migrations against a running database.

This provides compile-time analysis of your whole SQL schema.

It's a goddamned buggy disaster and the usability is basically zero, but the concept is cool.

<comment><USER3> We've used it on our on-premise product for the past maybe 5 years. I still think it's the future for maintaining a SQL database, and have wanted to do something similar for Postgres/OSS.

I'm curious what bugs you've run into, we have generally stopped being worried about the reliability of the diff scripts (we use those, though, we don't generate them on every deployment i.e. the .exe).

<comment><USER4> There are a few tools providing this workflow on open source databases. I'm the author of one, [https://github.com/skeema/skeema](https://github.com/skeema/skeema), for MySQL and MariaDB. Or for Postgres check out [https://github.com/djrobstep/migra](https://github.com/djrobstep/migra).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I can see how something like this is a nice addition to your tool set, but you really should have good automated tests at build time anyway to catch SQL errors.

<comment><USER6> I agree, end-to-end tests have been really valuable for catching SQL issues in my experience.

> _Identify unsafe queries that could potentially lead to SQL injections_

This feature seems like a perfect use case for static analysis and would be a great tool in addition to automated tests.

<comment><USER5> And static analysis is not limited to build time so it can provide value even earlier.

<comment><USER7> Or later, if your program grows from a small hack to an important application.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> First class support for SQL type checking and domain model mapping: [https://github.com/nikita-volkov/hasql-th](https://github.com/nikita- volkov/hasql-th)

</comment><comment><USER9> Very cool! I maintain a similar tool: sqlc [https://github.com/kyleconroy/sqlc](https://github.com/kyleconroy/sqlc)

In addition to catching SQL errors, it generates type-safe Go wrapping code. Right now it supports PostgreSQL and MySQL.

I'm (obviously) a huge fan of the SQL first approach and hope more people adopt it for their own projects.

<comment><USER10> Check out OctoSQL if you like a SQL first approach: [https://github.com/cube2222/octosql](https://github.com/cube2222/octosql)

Disclosure: I'm one of the authors.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> We have had compile-time checks on SQL in Scala for years, I believe slick 3 ([https://scala-slick.org/](https://scala-slick.org/)) was the pioneer in the language.

One detail that I really liked from Slick is that the compilation fails if your queries can't be performed against your database schema (think about missing columns, or wrong names or types).

While compile-time checks can be very useful, in my experience, there is nothing like having small integration tests that run against a real database which can easily be mounted by docker.

</comment><comment><USER12> Reminds me of the !sql in rust-postgres-macros:

[https://github.com/sfackler/rust-postgres- macros#sql](https://github.com/sfackler/rust-postgres-macros#sql)

With the difference: it uses the PostgreSQL parser, not a generic SQL parser

<comment><USER13> Ooh, that looks nice!

Though it doesn't seem particularly maintained

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Interesting. I had been using postguard in Node.js which also statically checks queries. But I wonder, how does this linter handle conditionally concatenated SQL strings in Go?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good question. This is actually pretty straight forward to implement and it's on my todo list :) We just need to iterate through all phi SSA nodes recursively, see: [https://github.com/houqp/sqlvet/blob/master/pkg/vet/gosource...](https://github.com/houqp/sqlvet/blob/master/pkg/vet/gosource.go#L248).

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> That reminds me on sqlj [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQLJ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQLJ)

I only heard about that in lectures but unfortunately could not really use it (sqlj was only compatible with Java pre-generics, so that was no option). Nice to see this idea revived.

<comment><USER16> Not really the same but [https://www.jooq.org/](https://www.jooq.org/) is really nice

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> That's why I love using sql query builders on top of code generation from the migrations. Helps with writing new, type-safe queries and if migrations break the queries, we will know at compile time, its truly amazing.

</comment><comment><USER18> Cool and all, but wouldn't one prefer db tests?

<comment><USER19> Both are useful I'd say. Imagine a plug-in for your IDE that performs the static analysis and catches the syntax errors and some trivial semantic errors (typos in some field's name for instance) each time you save the file. I definitely find value in such a tool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I love podcasts and I'm glad for any service that helps me find useful content. That said, I'm not quite getting how I'm supposed to be using this.

From a consumer viewpoint, I have a front page recommending episodes and a weekly summary. I get that, cool.

Now if I want to heart episodes to tell other listeners about episodes I particularly enjoy...I go to the website and search/submit the episode...I guess?

Anyway, I'm interested - I just wanted to share my first impression in case it was useful.

<comment><USER21> Wrong thread :-p

<comment><USER20> Woah, uh...that's weird. Thanks!</comment></comment></comment>


Google experiments in local news with an app called Bulletin - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/26/google-experiments-in-local-news-with-an-app-called-bulletin/ <comment><USER3> I think Techcrunch misses the point here. Twitter has failed in providing access to this content - when was the last time Twitter ever told you about something local?

What Google has - with Google Now/Feed and their various news efforts - <USER2> distribution, and you bet they know where you live and care about local stories for.

An anecdote: a coworker who lives nearby got a local story recommended to them about part of my building facade falling off.

I don't think Google cares about how to monetise this, it benefits from this content being on the web, rather than locked in Facebook groups.

As much as anyone here might hate Google, they are one of the few entities with deep pockets who have a real stake in the open web.

<comment><USER4> AMP seems to contradict the idea that Google is invested in supporting the open web. And Google is a business, not a charity, they're not going to invest in something they can't monetize.

<comment><USER3> Google is not a charity, but their core business - Search - depends on the web having content they can index. This is a play to defend their existing business, not a revenue opportunity.

I think AMP is a good thing for the mobile web. It makes web pages actually usable. People get a bit wound up about the fact that Google hosts the content on their CDN, but there is always a real URL backing it, the content isn't locked into Google's platform.

<comment><USER5> > It makes web pages actually usable.

Overriding the default scroll behavior, so as to make the user have to scroll to the very top of the page to display the browser address bar is really annoying though.

Besides that, I often do prefer AMP pages due to them loading faster and wasting less data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Sometimes I hate on Google, but I really appreciate them doing this (please don't kill this product 3 years from now though).

I know National news stories are always more sexy and exciting, but local news stories bind you to the place and community you live in. National news stories form a kind of "pseudo-society". What goes on locally forms real society.

I think the lesson of the last 70 or 80 years and the communication revolution is that instantaneous information, transmissions that binds everyone together in time, but not in place, is very destructive and for some reason does not work with the human mind.

This is somewhat similar to Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone" argument from the mid-1990s, but now the effects are much more severe and I think that's sensed across the world now.

<comment><USER7> We have only had a couple of generations of exposure to timely worldwide information. Less than one generation of access to nearly instant information. I think we just haven't developed the mechanisms for processing information outside of our immediate vicinity because we've never been presented with that problem.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is actually something I've been thinking about lately. I'm nearing the end of reading The Information Diet (which is just OK IMHO) but that one thing that stuck is that he mentions getting more information about your local news so that you can get involved in your community.

I can't stand the local newspapers because they are very regularly inaccurate. But there really isn't much else in the form of good local news source.

Only problem is, I fell out of love with Google awhile ago. I don't really want to use their products due to how much data they gather and also fear of them killing the product within 5 years.

</comment><comment><USER9> You can request early access here: [https://posts.google.com/bulletin/share](https://posts.google.com/bulletin/share)

I think the potential for this is huge. Though it's a bit different, I've been using the Citizen[1] app for a few months now, and it changed how I look at my neighborhood.

Not too long ago I was walking around and Citizen told me a pharmacy had been robbed a couple blocks away. After waiting a while to be sure it was safe, I walked over, hoping I could say hello and offer some support to the owner. I like making friends with local businesses.

Alas, it turned out to be a Rite Aid, so I didn't go in.

But still, it's amazing that my phone connects me to so many things--Donald Trump, Meltdown and Spectre, popular movies, my upcoming flights--and so rarely connects me to my own neighborhood.

I think I'll love this, if they do it right.

[1] [https://medium.com/@Citizen_App/introducing- citizen-a8d2f3fa...](https://medium.com/@Citizen_App/introducing- citizen-a8d2f3fabf03)

</comment><comment><USER10> > Bulletin makes it effortless to put a spotlight on inspiring stories that > aren't being told.

Bulletin will never take off with this as a core objective. Consuming stories and producing ever increasing click bait material is what drove society to social media addiction.

People escape this when it comes to local community. People care about action and real world interactions. A generic feed of user content that happened to be published by someone near you is not a very strong signal, and more importantly, does nothing to push you towards action.

Many comments here lean towards Bulletin having potential to be useful _if_ Google gets this right. Well, I'm not convinced it is off on the right start. We should focus on specific niches, and build software to help them connect. In the process, shape an underlying platform that supports communication for all these niche groups, but without a one-size-fits-all user experience. Bulletins can be spawned for city council, schools, professional associations, family activities, or any topic where people share a common interest and attend events. This has been churning on my mind for some time now, and I hope to pave some way on this in 2018. It is interesting to see Facebook and Google declare local communities and groups as a priority. They almost look incompetent on how to actually serve these needs. They have all the money and resources imaginable to throw at it, but I think orchestrating these products simply run counter to their DNA.

</comment><comment><USER11> Hopefully it will help drive discovery (and ad funding) of local news, an extremely important part of democracy that has been neglected by users.

<comment><USER12> The users of democracy?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's only a matter of time before its gamed and half the stories are even faker than fake news. And without the oversight of real editors, this could harm people.

<comment><USER14> It depends how much grassrooting it's going to leverage. My local community facebook group doesn't have fake news and keep me informed of what's going on in my very small and specific village.

<comment><USER15> > ...without the oversight of real editors... @thrillgore

> ... local community facebook group doesn't have fake news... > @johnchristopher

Moderators. Yup. As for the gamed system...yup.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I could be wrong but didn't Google News have some kind of detrimental effect on online readership of major news? In that case what will happen to local news when this app hits.

<comment><USER17> In case you're not aware, local news has been on a pretty steep downward trajectory for awhile now[0]. I doubt this app will have a significant impact, and it seems more geared towards so-called "citizen journalism".

[0]: [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact- tank/2017/06/01/circulation-...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact- tank/2017/06/01/circulation-and-revenue-fall-for-newspaper-industry/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> As long as Google dose not regulate it for the interest of its stakeholders. There is always a lot of corruption happening at city and county levels that goes unheard because it does not pick national level momentum. Nor do I have time neither do I appreciate my "local" news channels and local newspapers. Most of the time they are writing/producing fluff pieces (kids stuck in an arcade claw machine or local dog gave birth to 60 puppies etc) to fill their news quotas. Having such service around would help me skim through important news at a quick glance.

</comment><comment><USER19> Looks like NextDoor was getting too popular.

</comment><comment><USER20> I don't understand why hyperlocal news hasn't succeeded yet, after 8 years of it being talked about. I'm VERY interested in what's happening in my neighborhood, if my neighbor's house was vandalised, or there was a violent dispute or something else. Same thing happened in some other city? Less interested. Some other country? Not interested.

<comment><USER21> Is Nextdoor an option for you? Between that and Ring's neighborhood alerts with video/photos, I find it much easier to stay current on neighborhood news than I did before.

<comment><USER20> No, Nextdoor is available only in some developed countries. What's Ring? Google searches didn't work.

<comment><USER22> Ring is a digital doorbell. Looks like they also have a "neighborhood watch" app: [https://ring.com/neighborhoods](https://ring.com/neighborhoods)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Local news is a tough problem. I mean this is kind of handy for things anyone can see, but you _need_ someone to go sit through massive city council meetings each week, and write it up. What they decide is often more important to your day to day life than something in Washington DC.

</comment><comment><USER24> Isn't "local news, the web-app" the impossible dream? So many have tried, and so many have failed. Google is building a business on a graveyard there, but I guess they've got the money to prop it up for awhile.

</comment><comment><USER25> Pretty sure, now that Facebooglezon is considered _hostis humani generis_ , that it won't gain traction as a reputable source for solid news.

</comment><comment><USER26> Bulletin sounds like Google might be considering competing with Craigslist?

</comment><comment><USER27> This reminds me of a post the other day where an ex-Googler said that Big G has stopped innovating, and instead is just copying other products. He then gave a list.

Google Bulletin = Nextdoor, and probably a dozen other platforms that do the same thing.

<comment><USER28> We will probably see less acquisitions of product-oriented startups (e.g. Nextdoor) from Google unless the startup has some core tech/market Google needs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I was thinking that this sounds something like Twitter and the very last sentence in the article seems to agree:

"But if Google wants a piece of this kind of action, it should have just bought Twitter years ago."

<comment><USER14> Twitter is b2b, this google experiment soon to be launched then slashed is likely more b2c/b2b2c.

<comment><USER30> Isn't it c2c?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Google should be banned from doing this.

My god, it's not enough to try to have everyone's thoughts monetized and leveraging that to spam their consistently shitty products let's take over local news too!

</comment><comment><USER32> I really do hope google doesn't abandon this project

<comment><USER33> I wouldn't get your hopes up too high.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> leave us alone google

<comment><USER35> Then chose to not use them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Steve Yegge wasn't wrong

</comment><comment><USER37> Once again Google is showing that you should not rely on any of their apps or services for long term needs.

Here is a list of existing Google apps/services that Bulletin would/will compete with:

News [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_News](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_News)

News and Weather [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_News_%26_Weather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_News_%26_Weather)

Play Newsstand [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Play_Newsstand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Play_Newsstand)

and the discontinued ones:

Fast Flip [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fast_Flip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fast_Flip)

Jaiku [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaiku](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaiku)

<comment><USER38> None of those are meant for locally curated, user generated content.

Bulletin doesn't compete with any of those except in the broadest sense.

<comment><USER39> nextdoor</comment></comment></comment>


Knight News Challenge: Local Journalism Tool Development - <AUTHOR> http://www.niemanlab.org/2009/06/knight-news-challenge-building-a-new-tool-for-communication-across-neighborhood-boundaries/ <comment><USER2> An intriguing approach to bringing the virtual into the real. But I think it's going to need some more work before it does real "bridging" - rather than just gawking.

Keep in mind that the project was developed as _art_ \- not back-and-forth communication per se. Let's see what some creative hackers can do with it.</comment>


Apple Confirms Steve Jobs To Announce iOS 5, Mac OS X Lion and iCloud on June 6 - <AUTHOR> http://www.technobolt.com/2011/05/31/apple-confirms-ceo-steve-jobs-to-announce-ios-5-mac-os-x-lion-and-icloud-for-wwdc-event/

<comment><USER2> Does anyone know how a Cloud music service would work for non-iTunes bought music? While I would never pirate music cough, I'm wondering whether music obtained in such a manner would be available in the cloud. I can see three different ways the iCloud could work: 1) The only music available via the cloud are songs you've purchased. You have to sign in to get access to the music and only songs purchased with the account are available. Possible, but I doubt anyone would really use it if this was the case. 2) You are able to upload any music that you haven't purchased and add it to your cloud account. I think this is most likely but doesn't really differentiate it from current competitors. 3) Any music that you have in your itunes is instantly available online. I highly doubt this will be the case.

Anyone else have any thoughts on how it would work? Would you use it if you can't get pirated music on the cloud?

<comment><USER3> Since iTunes allows you to use music you got from any location, it would make most sense to go with option two. This would be consistent with the manner in which Apple allows customers to use iTunes currently. If they choose option 3, their servers would probably be overloaded immediately, an embarrassment which hampered the launch of MobileMe[1]. Apple won't want to risk this.

I doubt if there would be much uptake of the service if it were iTunes- purchased music only. Piracy aside, what about music that you bought legally from legit sources?

[1] <http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/05/09/inside-apple/>

EDIT: there would probably be some limit that you could use for free (e.g. 10GB), but beyond this there would be a monthly fee, à la Dropbox.

<comment><USER4> I'm not at all convinced there will be a limit, at least not such a small limit as 10GB.

I read somewhere that Apple are going to replace music files you have with higher quality files. I suppose this means they are not really storing every single file separately.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm looking forward to Apple restoring OpenGL acceleration to what it was before Snow Leopard. After updating, games that would run in the 50 - 60 fps dropped to a disappointing 20fps.

<comment><USER6> I noticed OpenCL performance for bitcoin miners improve a lot (about 15%) when switching from Snow Leopard to the Lion Dev Seed.

No real explanation, just an observation.</comment></comment>


FBI considers your retweets to be endorsements. Could land you in jail - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/19/reminder-dont-retweet-isis-or-you-could-go-to-jail/ <comment><USER2> Reminder: headlines are rarely truly representative of the article beneath them.

Of course they will use tweets, retweets, and other signals as data that help inform them about a person of interest. Why is this surprising? This person was not arrested for a retweet which is what the headline implies. They were arrested for showing support for ISIL in a number of ways and contacting people to arrange or trying to arrange to join them.

I'm no huge fan of the NSA itself or many government practices that I feel are an overreach, but this isn't one of them.</comment>