Ask HN: Should we waive technical interviews if candidate contributes? - <AUTHOR> If a candidate contributes a code related patch to a company's open source project, should that serve as enough justification to the interviewer that the candidate has technical prowess in order to waive a technical interview?<p>This would IMO be a better gauge of technical quality over white-board interviews. <comment><USER2> You should waive technical interviews, full stop.

Most people have zero professional training on how to do them properly. So don't.

Using the technical interview approach, Einstein wouldn't get a job as a physicist because he had trouble doing simple math problems. That's not Einstein's fault. That's your fault.

Use methods of interviewing that are time-honored and aren't cargo cult. Conversational interviewing comes to mind.

<comment><USER3> You should waive unit testing, full stop.

Most people have zero professional training on how to do them properly. So don't.

/s

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Whiteboard interviews are as useless as baptizing a rattlesnake... but that doesn't mean contributed code is relevant indicator of future performance. It might be ... but as always "it just depends"

<comment><USER5> > _... as useless as baptizing a rattlesnake_

Says someone who clearly doesn't have to worry about the threat of demonic rattlesnakes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The question is if technical interviews of the white-board variety usually have any value at all in determining someone's technical prowess or if they're generally just a huge waste of resources.

Quite likely, there's no one-size-fits-all solution for assessing candidates.

The way I approach this is by looking at the candidate's background and trying to make connections to the product the company or team is working on.

Then I have an open conversation with the candidate about these connecting points and possibly related subjects. It usually becomes obvious quite quickly if the candidate knows what he or she is talking about. It also gives you an idea about how the candidate communicates, which often is more important than technical skill.

Technically, that's still a technical interview but it's much more free-form than the rigid white-board interview format. It's more of a conversation between equals rather than a test setting, where one side is being questioned.

<comment><AUTHOR> I like this way of doing things. Some people are brilliant and very good at general communication but just don't interview well due to various factors. This sort of free form conversation should put them at ease as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This might suffice to see if the candidate is able to write decent code, but what about their ability to communicate their ideas with other developers, their approach to tech in general, or how they'd mesh with the team on a technical level?

<comment><USER8> Those aren't part of the technical interview, possibly except for the "approach to tech" item depending on context.

<comment><USER3> How can "ability to communicate their ideas with other developers" not be part of the technical interview?

How could a developer get a 'hire' or 'strong hire' rating without communicating their ideas clearly to the interviewer?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I feel like what you're asking is borderline to a dumb question. Because yes, it is obvious that someone who can contribute a (meaningful) patch to working code is qualified. At least skip the FizzBuzz tests.

<comment><AUTHOR> We don't see this happening for tech jobs, and at the worst, interviewers will still ask programming language specific questions. Plus "meaningful patch" might mean different things to different people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Yes, this is a far better measure of ability than any white board test.

Then if you want to measure communication skills etc then just look over some of his commits and get him to explain them to you.

</comment><comment><USER11> What if a friend of the candidate is the actual person who contributed the code patch? You can't be too careful these days.

<comment><USER12> Then they'd be excellent management material. Motivating friends to do random, high quality code patches. Very impressive.</comment></comment>


Why do managers prefer ONSITE developers? - <AUTHOR>

Why do most manager types prefer to physically monitor their team? When I go to get my oil changed, I don't have to get out and WATCH him do it. <comment><USER2> There's a big part of it that is based on the incorrect assumption that if someone is in the office 9-5, they are working 9-5. That and the ability to directly monitor people, interrupt them whenever you want to, and so on.

The other part of it is slightly more understandable, which is to enable you to collaborate better with the other members of the team. Developers are often more likely to turn to someone they are sat near and bounce an idea off them than they are to write a question in an email, IM or chat room.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think your analogy is incorrect. When you get your oil changed, you are the customer and the person changing your oil does get monitored by his boss (manager), to make sure he does his job.

As a developer, you are not the customer, the people using your code are the customers. In the end its all about accountability and responsibility. If you take ownership of your code/issues, a good manager will see that and stop micromanaging.

</comment><comment><USER4> I think one of the main point is reactivity, or response time. If something goes wrong, you can simply say "Hey Matthew something's not right on the production server, can you come over here?" rather than trying to reach you by IM "Hey Mat? are you there? Plz answer quickly".

I am not sure it is always justified, but I think most people feels _safer_ to have people close if something goes wrong.</comment>


The Pinboard Investment Co-Prosperity Cloud - <AUTHOR> http://static.pinboard.in/prosperity_cloud.htm <comment><USER2> I would like to take this moment to announce PICPC-VC, which is an automatic follow-on investment, structured as uncapped convertible notes, of $50 available to any founder accepted into the PICPC program.

<comment><USER3> Andreessen Horowitz will match your $50 with another $50.

<comment><USER4> Does that mean that recipients can legitimately tell the press and other investors that a16z is one of their investors?

Assuming that the recipient can keep a straight face?

EDIT: Perhaps having a16z as the only VC in your seed is a very bad idea. Chris Dixon (now a partner at a16z) cautions enterpreneurs against the risks of having a sole VC in your seed round:

[http://cdixon.org/2012/04/02/revisited-big-vcs-investing- in-...](http://cdixon.org/2012/04/02/revisited-big-vcs-investing-in-seed- rounds/)

"I can think of about 15 founders I've spoken to recently who tried or are trying to raise Series As but are seriously hampered by the fact that a big VC invested in the seed round but isn't participating in the Series A."

<comment><USER3> If our $50 participation hampers your A round, we will bridge you with another $15.

<comment><USER4> pmarca: I think you're onto something here.

A large micro-investment portfolio.

Anything in this portfolio is sort of a tip of the hat from a16z, a micro- endorsement that messages: "we've got our eyes on this company."

<comment><USER3> Due to the reduced size of the round, the announcement can only cite investment from a1z.

<comment><USER5> oh, the LULZ! ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Thinking of applying as a single non-technical founder. All I have is an idea but I am sure with the $37 dollars I could hire an awesome programmer to put it together for me!

EDIT: Seeking technical co-founder to help build out idea. Must be prepared to sign NDA before equity can be discussed.

<comment><USER6> EDIT 2: Funny/telling this is my highest rated comment on HN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Just a note on word choices... the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" was the name of the colonial empire that Japan built through conquests and occupation starting in 1940.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co- Prosperity...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co- Prosperity_Sphere)

Not sure if this is part of a joke or not, but Japan's history of war-time brutality during World War 2 is pretty extreme.

<comment><USER8> Noticed this as well... "Co-Prosperity _____" should sound hauntingly familiar to anyone with any amount of knowledge about WWII.

It seems like the "Co-Prosperity Cloud" is a joke, but even if it is, it's a joke in poor taste considering the atrocities committed by Japan, and not even an especially clever one (annexation and abuse for profit is not really the same idea - I hope - that Pinboard is expressing).

<comment><USER9> Considering that > 90% of the people who witnessed said atrocities are no longer with us (and 100% don't read HN), the time for jokes has come at last. Actually there have been numerous humorous takes on WWII for decades now.

In "jokes", people often state propositions that seem opposed to what we would hope they believe.

<comment><USER7> Regarding atrocities, you clearly have no idea how deeply the wartime atrocities impacted many Asian families. Many Korean families I know refuse to buy Japanese cars or products (my mom is Japanese, so I've been told this many many times). My Korean father-in-law was an orphan because of the Japanese occupation.

In any case, the above fails the first rule of jokes... they're supposed to be funny. I thought the post was funny enough. But the reference to a co- prosperity system didn't add much (any?) humor to it. Just pointing that out to the OP...

<comment><USER10> That's not the 1st rule of jokes! The 1st rule of jokes is that there are no rules. The 2nd rule of jokes is that everyone finds different things funny. The 3rd rule is to break all the rules.

Repurposing the stilted propaganda of long-ago times, or of clumsy tyrants, for subtly absurdist/ironic humor value, does not in any way lessen the original horrors. It celebrates the distance we've achieved, while also offering a teaching moment by contrast/reference.

See also: "we will bury you", "let a thousand flowers bloom", "we had to destroy the village in order to save it", "i have in my hands a list of hundreds of known Communists", "the war to end all wars", "the mother of all battles", "this blogger has been harmonized", etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It seems like that might be too much money. You're in danger of having people coast along with no real hunger.

</comment><comment><USER12> "The project aims to draw attention to the fact that if you have access to technical labor, the startup and operating costs for an online project in 2013 are negligible. The biggest obstacle to creating something useful is finding the time to build it and attracting an initial pool of paying customers."

Good thing that in the brave new future world of 2013 labor and marketing are completely free of all costs, opportunity and otherwise.

<comment><USER13> "Dear angel investor, I need to raise $500k to cover my opportunity costs while I work on this startup."

<comment><USER14> Fortunately opportunity costs can be paid in equity. Rent, car insurance, and groceries can't.

<comment><USER15> You just need a more risk-seeking landlord and grocer.

<comment><USER16> I call them Mum & Dad.

<comment><USER17> I think I can safely say this is HN's Retort Of The Year.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is wrong for a variety of reasons.

First, you should never accept angel investment from non-accredited investors (i.e., individuals with a net worth of at least one million cents).

Second, the real value of the investors is their network. In this case, Maciej Cegłowski's network is a collection of links featured in an indexed, polished, simple-to-use product. Why accept money from him when his network is already available for free?

Third, seeking outside investment prior to building a prototype has been heralded as a path to madness. You should at least have some sort of Bootstrap-based splash page on a .io domain before you accept his sizable investment.

</comment><comment><USER19> Stripe will happily waive the first $37 in fees.

<comment><USER20> PagerDuty will similarly offer a $37 credit towards an account with us.

<comment><USER21> 5KMVP will offer $37 off the building of your MVP.

<comment><USER22> The value in accepting $37 from pinboard or a16z is in getting a lot of exposure and not the money.

Are you serious or joking when you made this offer? Either you guys missed the point or you want to put your name on the meme of the day. Can you give me a compelling reason for me to accept the $37 from you?

<comment><USER21> Well....just like with pinboard, it is partly tongue-in-cheek.

Although, in the spirit of low friction, I would gladly honor any such requests for a discount.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> My application: "I'd use the $37 to buy $20 worth of stamps and envelopes, then $17 for a disposable camera and photo development costs. I'd photograph myself putting the stamps on the envelopes and get the photos developed. Then I'd put the photos in the envelopes and mail them to you."

<comment><USER24> Instagram Clone: check

<comment><USER25> "It's Instagram for paper."

<comment><USER24> Pretty certain I'm going to drink too much Angry Orchard tonight and try to do this with the Camera app and Picplum on Android.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Before I joined it sometime this year or last, I thought Pinboard seemed like the silliest, most likely-to-peter-out trifle of a service. But now it stands alone from all the other pinning services I used to use, including Instapaper.

In other words, I trust this guy with knowing how to execute (and to the point, probably recognize) successful minimally-viable products.

</comment><comment><USER27> It does seem like cost are negligible today, but on deeper analysis theres a lot of costs beyond simply hosting.

Just from memory for my startup (Authy.com), initial costs were:

Domain: $1000+

Design: $3000

Video: $3000

Hosting: $400

Depending on your skills this initial costs will vary. An although I agree you don't need external investment to cover them, you should at least plan to invest $10,000US to cover your initial costs.

<comment><USER28> A lot of the things that you seem to think of as mandatory are not.

Domain: or get something longer for $9. E.g., authyapp.com or getauthy.com

Design: <http://themeforest.net/> $15-$25, or DIY (depends on how much design matters for your niche--for Pinboard it clearly doesn't)

Video: You don't need no stinkin' video

Hosting: Maciej is recommending <http://prgmr.com/xen/> for $32 (but can you actually run a modern app stack on just 128 MB of RAM?) Anyway, even if you need a gig, that's $100.

<comment><USER29> >(but can you actually run a modern app stack on just 128 MB of RAM?)

C/Golang/Lua/Vala/SBCL/Ada/Pascal and an embedded datastore like bdb!

Why in my day we used to write little apps with C and bdb that used less than 5mb of memory! (Sqlite didn't exist yo.)

Heck these days you get (ENTERPRISE) choices like LevelDB and BangDB.

Edit: Who wants to have a datastore-backed c10k contest on prgmr machines? :D

<comment><USER28> Ha, I'm aware that if you're careful, you can do it, but I was more thinking of a python or ruby stack with MySQL (or whatever) that most people would use :).

<comment><USER29> MySQL and Ruby could be made to work. (on 128mb of ram)...concurrency would be awful though.

I was trying to be lean.

Ruby users are quiche eaters anyway. Real programmers write their code in Fortran and persist to a hierarchical database on a mainframe.

<comment><USER30> _Real_ programmers use a magnetic needle and a steady hand.

<comment><USER31> Haha. That's funny.

You think real programmers need needles.

Or hands.

<comment><USER32> I still feed the punchcards into the mainframe with my mouth.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> _How I hacked the Pinboard Co-Prosperity Cloud_

<comment><USER34> _What I Learned From Being Upvoted on Hacker News After Hacking the Pinboard Co-Prosperity Cloud_

<comment><USER35> _14 steps to get accepted by Pinboard Co-Prosperity Cloud_

<comment><USER34> _How Redis, Node.js and Backbone.js Saved My Application to PCPC_

<comment><USER36> What I learned from being rejected by PICPC

<comment><USER32> Bravo Presents "Co-Prosperity Valley"

<comment><USER37> Aaron Sorkin is jotting down ideas. Watch for something in theaters in 2014.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I don't understand people ridiculing him. This funding is for entrepreneurs and business projects with a particular profile. A project like Pinboard.

When Y combinator started the amount of money was also ridicule.

What you get with his funding is visibility and this is rapidly growing in value because everybody will now look with high curiosity what are the 6 selected projects.

It looks like he is attempting to undercut Y combinator and might succeed. Look how he targets a niche market that is discarded by Y combinator : single founder projet. He applies all the advises given by PG himself.

I'm looking forward to see how he will execute, but this is already a very good start.

If I had a close to finished project and no traction because of no visibility I would apply. Because the visibility will be much bigger than with an article in techcruch.

</comment><comment><USER39> Ok, I'm in. I have an idea that will cost precisely $37 dollars to start. This is such perfect timing.

</comment><comment><USER40> > How is this different from other incubators?

> Participants receive almost no money, and are expected to do everything > themselves.

So not really all that different than many (most?) incubators.

</comment><comment><USER41> > Is this a joke?

It is not a joke.

> I have no understanding of the concept of humor...

So it is a joke.. Or at the very least tongue in cheek. (With some exceptions,) I doubt hosting is what most VC funding is spent on.

Edit: as he said, "The biggest obstacle to creating something useful is finding the time to build it and attracting an initial pool of paying customers." If you have access to those you probably have $37. I get that he is trying to say technical costs can be negligible for startups. I fail to see how Investment Co-Prosperity Cloud helps anyone in anyway. And thus, I think it's a joke (even if the funding is real).

<comment><USER25> "I doubt hosting is what most VC funding is spent on."

You might be surprised.

<comment><USER42> Consider something like the start of instagram - no revenue and huge data transfer costs after getting tons of users. Although I realize OP is suggesting building something with revenue that is sustainable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> If you get rejected, shoot us an email firstname.lastname@example.com for a forever free funnel analytics platform.

<comment><USER44> I will apply twice and get one rejected on purpose. Funnel for free FTW!

<comment><USER43> Btw this is a play on mixpanel offering for YC rejects, no real site exists.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I would use the money to buy signals. Since they're a buck, I could buy 37 signals.

</comment><comment><USER46> I'll wait for the blog post inviting hardware startups too, followed by a post about how $37 gives founders too much runway, and half as much ought to do it.

</comment><comment><USER47> I'm announcing microcrowdfunding flush-investment platfrom Flushstart. We all have pockets full of change by the end of the day. To participate in Flushstart you you just flush all the change down the toilet and Flushstart employees collect your investments in the sewers. You automatically get equity in all projects listed in Flushstart. I just started the platform by flushing 10 cents.

</comment><comment><USER14> Will you be offering $1.12 in expense reimbursement for the interviews? Will you do checks or cash?

($1.12 won't even cover the minimum BART or Muni or VTA fares now, I think, unless you're a child or senior or disabled or something)

</comment><comment><USER14> I'd like to take this opportunity to offer PICPCReject membership to anyone rejected by the horrible elitists at PICPC.

We don't have any funding yet, so we can't make any specific promises, but I hear the dumpsters behind Denny's have a wide variety of semi-rotten food available for "Tuesday dinners".

<comment><USER35> My company will offer $38 to every PICPC reject (1) as a bold signal to the industry to not undervalue the vibrant entrepreneurial spirit our community is made of!

(1) requires additional investment criteria to be fulfilled, left to our descretion

<comment><USER14> Someone needs to do PICPC-T next. That was one of the oddest things of the past 18 months.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Great idea :)

From Webpop we'll offer a free project and a startup template (<http://app.webpop.com/themes/startup>) for anybody accepted into the program.

For some people this might be enough to completely skip the Linode and buy one more beer.

<comment><USER49> I actually quite like this but what scares me is I see no mention of an export. A startup could never use this if there is no simple way to leave at some point in the future.

<comment><USER15> You can check out anytime you like

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Someone should start a similar fund, but instead of just throwing large amounts of money at the companies like PICPC, they should help introduce them to their vast network of highly engaged people... perhaps on Twitter.

</comment><comment><USER51> I have emailed and offered support of $20 per startup, plus use of my manufacturing facility. I think this is a great idea, and since I started my company with a credit card I can relate to the unfunded startup.

</comment><comment><USER52> This seems perfect for my recipe site. I hope my application gets accepted.

</comment><comment><USER53> To take this to the next level, I vote for crowd-funding at the end of it all. I'd put $20 behind my favourite startup from the class and cheer them on. Almost like fantasy sports, but for startups.

<comment><USER54> Would that as applicant idea be too meta?

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Watch out for the PICPC Mafia.

</comment><comment><USER56> Applied! :)

Wrote a poem about it on the Collaborative Poetry app that I just launched. <http://poe3.com/38>

</comment><comment><USER43> Is there a get-together day to meet fellow applicants? Perhaps a dinner?

<comment><USER15> A hang-out on IRC

<comment><USER44> That's $37 on Internet fees.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> This is flawless. I have a little script that I've been working on that has helped my life immensely and I know it could help others too. I've been too lazy to make it into anything more, though. This is giving me just enough to actually write down what it is and why it's helpful, and if I get it will totally make me go further.

</comment><comment><USER58> Is $37 an ode to 37 signals?

<comment><USER45> See <http://www.thirty-seven.org/>

<comment><USER59> most important bit from that link: "37 gets used a lot because it somehow feels random"

<comment><USER60> There's a bit in James P Hogan's novel Code Of The Lifemaker about a charlatan mentalist, asking a crowd to pick a number under certain circumstances. Because of the way he structured it most people picked 37. See here for excerpt- <http://jm.home.xs4all.nl/37/cotl.html>

I got excited when I read that book the first time since I'd decided at about age 15 or so that 37 was "the most random number" and used it everywhere I could as some sort of odd prank.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> We're in a bubble.

</comment><comment><USER62> Perhaps you could all use the money/freebies to fund this.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4924650>

</comment><comment><USER63> Do you accept startups from Brazil? I would love to apply!

</comment><comment><USER64> This is $1 less than it takes to sponsor a child for one month through Compassion International (an organization that supports 1.2 million children in the most poverty-stricken areas of the world). Would the money be better spent sponsoring a child or sponsoring a startup?

<comment><USER65> [http://lesswrong.com/lw/3gj/efficient_charity_do_unto_others...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/3gj/efficient_charity_do_unto_others/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I don't understand all this angel investment speak but the thing I am curios the most is simple.

I apply I make it "big"

Does pin board owns any of my company because they invested $37 a month and provided exposure?

I really don't understand who doesn't have $37 a month to be self-funded but I'm interested on exposure.

<comment><USER66> I believe it is a one-time $37 investment, not monthly.

If I understood the discussion elsewhere in this thread, he states that the investment is a form that gets converted to $37 worth of shares at the next fundraising valuation.

So if you raised venture capital at a million dollars valuation, he would own $37 worth of shares, which later if the company was sold for a billion would give the investor a cool $37,000.

Basically he is trying to make a point rather than make big profits.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Maciej Ceglowski is the Flounder of Pinboard.in - <http://idlewords.com/resume.htm>

We all flounder sometimes, but it's good to admit upfront that it's your full time (pre)occupation.

</comment><comment><USER49> Why doesn't PICPC-VC have a Dropbox or Airbnb in their alumni yet?

</comment><comment><USER68> Wait, I'm confused - I'd at least expect you to mention something about us getting into the PR circle jerk as part of the program? Is that not part of it?

</comment><comment><USER69> I just sent my idea, let's see he agrees with me to spend my entire winter break just working on this idea... Mostly, because of motivational purposes

</comment><comment><USER70> I am building a bookmarking site. Can I apply?

</comment><comment><USER25> I like the name. Too, I love the service.

</comment><comment><USER71> The PR speak bit was golden. I'm thankful to have not read enough start-up news to write something similar.

</comment><comment><USER72> This article is a waste of time.

</comment><comment><USER5> this could have been so much more fun at $42 instead of $37 or $50... #justsayin

<comment><USER73> I would like to see it at $1337

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> I applied. Anybody have tips for the interview??? Can any alumni put in a word for me??? What if I use my product to deliver a 6-pack to one of the pinboard founders, will that improve my chances??? Please help!!!

<comment><USER2> I recommend sending him oyster mushrooms instead of canned beer.

<comment><USER75> Would canned oyster mushrooms work?</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Any services that I can pay to meet professionals in Bay Area? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> You mean other than a bar? Bonus: Not only do you pay them to meet professionals, they'll even give you booze to break the ice.

More seriously though, could you be more specific? Are you looking for professionals in a certain industry, investors or just a mentor type figure from any area to bounce ideas off of?</comment>


Do Makers Propose a More Open Source Future? - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct5fjHC7tL8 <comment><AUTHOR> Idea Channel poses a very interesting idea arising from the maker movement. It's very true that as time has goes on more people will have the ability to mess with the internals of the machine/program but won't be able to. It's a very interesting argument</comment>


The Effect of Sleep on Happiness - <AUTHOR> https://www.trackinghappiness.com/effect-sleep-happiness/ <comment><USER3> I sleep 10 to 11h per night. I may trim that to 6h one day but no more than once per month and if there is an absolute emergency - but then I know my productivity will be killed for at least 2 days.

OTOH, my inspiration will be higher: I will have more creative ideas on how to combine stuff, but I will be too tired to do any of that. I will just take notes.

With adequate sleep, I do not feel happier or sadder than anyone else. I feel more productive however. Sunday I had never done any python because I preferred perl, but for some specific task there was no option but a python library (well, it was also possible in another language I don't like either)

So on Monday, I learned python, then asynchronous execution with asyncio, then parallelizing with joblib. Tuesday, I coded.

Today I have a python3 daemon with error handling and other niceties ready to be deployed to test. It seems robust enough to require minimal oversight by systemd.

In any case, it will be deployed on all POPs and in production on Friday - even if I must have a bad night. But that means I will not do much next day. But that means I will have other creative ideas!

<comment><USER4> >I sleep 10 to 11h per night.

Yeah that's called over-sleeping sir. It may be indicative of a health issue you should get checked out. You might not want to be so quick to stake claim to autonomous functions. It's not like you're willing yourself to sleep longer; your body just isn't functioning normally.

<comment><USER5> You have evidence for that claim? No study I've seen seems to suggest there's any problem with sleeping more up to something like 12 hrs/night I think. National Sleep Foundation recommends 7-9 hours for adults, and I think I've seen studies suggesting that's on the low side. When you also account for natural variations within a population, a need for 10 hours of sleep doesn't seem ridiculous.

<comment><USER6> You do not seem to be talking of the same thing. He wrote:

> It may be indicative of a health issue

Now you write:

> No study I've seen seems to suggest there's any problem with sleeping more > up to something like 12 hrs/night I think

So he said it may be an indication of an issue, and you write that it may not be unhealthy to sleep a lot. Those are two different things.

As for your claim: A quick search returns many hits related to issues caused by sleeping more than ~9 hours. I have not reviewed them (I spent 1 minute on this) so can't say if the studies well performed. Example:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473367](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473367) "Prolonged sleep duration (night-time sleep and daytime napping) may be associated with an increased risk of dementia."

But saying that no study would even suggest there would be a problem seems strange considering I found a bunch of them in a minute. Maybe you have done a deeper review of the studies and concluded that they are invalid, or?

<comment><USER7> I think the key here is "associated". Sleep deprivation has also been associated to dementia.

<comment><USER6> Yes, the link I gave pointed that out. I just questioned that he hadn't found a link since there are so many studies available. If there are associations between sleeping lock and many illnesses then of course sleeping long could be an indication of an issue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I like sleeping on time and waking up early(ish). I'm slowly shifting from a night-owl into a morning person in my 30s. I love the productivity I feel and knowing that I can do a bunch of things in the morning before work, then get home in the evening and relax.

But my problem is that that I'm a single guy who needs to date and have a social life. And try as I might, all such social constructs require you to stay out late and drink a little. All of which eventually chips into the sleep, and hence how productive you are the next day.

It's really annoying having to force myself to be social at the cost of only being, say, 70% as productive the next day.

Is anyone else facing this conundrum, or can impart any hints?

<comment><USER9> I have the opposite problem. I'm an incurable night owl, despite having tried to shift. I thought I too would grow out of it, but I'm moving into my 30s next year and it's going stronger than ever. Such that the last time I tried to fix my schedule and be up at 0800 (by going to bed at 0100) I fainted at my desk and had to go nap, and return to staying up till 0400 and waking at 1130-1230. So it's hard for me to maintain any professional commitments before noon, which kind of sucks. Luckily my cofounders are very understanding and honestly kind of appreciate that I get a lot of work done between the end and the start of their day after we sync up.

That said, the time from 0000-0330 is amazing. For the same reasons people like to wake up really early (3+ hours before going to work), this time is (human, coworker and outdoor capitalist) distraction free, I can't run boring errands outside, so I can focus on creative work at home. It's great that it can double up as late-night partying/dating/gaming/social time. But other than maybe once-a-week for gaming, I use it for the others once a month or rarer.

There are some social costs however, besides the professional one mentioned earlier. I'm a complete corpse when trying to make morning weekend plans (breakfast/brunch, hikes, events). I get to be known as "that guy who only gets up at noon". Which makes me wonder, is waking up at 0400 so much more socially upstanding that going to bed at 0400 if I'm using my isolationist time mostly the same way? Waking up early is associated with discipline and diligence, staying up late is associated with childishness and immaturity and lack of discipline.

I't all just a trade-off. I suppose one can train for schedule flexibility, but I love my late nights.

<comment><USER10> I think there is some moral notion ingrained in me that staying up late is just a bad thing, and being up early is a good thing. It feels so satisfying waking up really early and having a peaceful morning alone, before the hustle and bustle of the day begins. I see the parallel you draw to late night, but it just seems less wholesome to me for some reason.

<comment><USER9> Yup, I hope you and others who share your way introspect as to why it seems that way, other than just because that's the social conditioning we receive.

Here are some (strawman?) arguments that support your view, but are they actually justified/true/not-true-for-staying-up-instead?

\- it takes effort to build a habit of waking up early, therefore it's good

\- the hardest workers i know wake up early, it must be integral to why they're productive

\- college kids stay up late, and college kids lack discipline

\- being out when the sun is up is healthy for you, so sleeping through sunlight is bad for you

I feel like if businesses operated from 12pm-12am instead of 9am-9pm, all these would be flipped in favor of staying up late =/

<comment><USER11> Those are some good arguments, though from my perspective it seems like it could be simpler.

For one, just like you can't get up early, some of us can't sleep in. Takes no effort for me to build up a habit of waking up early, my body just likes to wake up at 4:30AM. I go to bed relatively early because I'm going to be awake at 4:30AM either way so I might as well try to make a full night of sleep happen.

Other than that, I think there might be a bit of moral judgement going on, but I think it's just that the business day starts at 8:00AM and sleeping past that looks like lazy or luxury. One thing I like about working in tech is that there is less judgement there -- hell, if anything, I get more flack for waking up at the crack of dawn than my coworkers who get into the office at 10:30AM or 11:00. I'm not the only guy who gets into the office early but on my team I'm in the minority.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I can't tell if sleeping well makes me happier, but I can confirm that not sleeping enough makes me unhappy. I need my eight hours, even one hour less and my mood becomes more fragile. Reduce it significantly less (let's say <5 hours) and the world turns dark on me.

This has always been like that, but more with age. That made having kids a real challenge. Luckily, my SO is not as nearly dependent on sleep as I am.

<comment><USER13> I'm seventeen and need 10 hours of sleep to run at full capacity the next day. But with school I have to wake up at 7 and going to sleep at 21 is impossible, so I feel like a zombie very often and am only productive in the afternoon.

I have always hoped this could get better with age. Are you saying this will get worse?

<comment><USER14> It does get better with age in that your circadian rhythm will shift as you get older. It's a crime that we force adolescents to wake up far earlier than they are biologically wired to just so their parents can get to their jobs. According to Matthew Walker (Berkeley professor and sleep researcher), waking up at 7 is equivalent to an adult waking up at 5. Highly recommend his book on sleep. It's incredible, the best non-fiction I've read in the last couple years. [https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking- Dreams/dp/1501...](https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking- Dreams/dp/1501144316)

<comment><USER15> Indeed, this book is well worth anyone's read. Many insights on sleep and productivity (the effect of alcohol on sleep quality was particularly shocking).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Stopped reading after I saw the chart drew lines to extrapolate from extremes relatively close to the mean hours of sleep, and accounted not for such things as degrees of standard deviation, rather (mis)leading to the conclusion that these happiness results were dependent entirely on the one measured variable and not that other factors would contribute to outliers. Your anecdotal evidence, and analysis, are flawed, though I lack the terminology to adequately improve them. Will someone please translate my hunch to appropriate statistical tools? I would like to replicate this data collection in my own life and learn something of value from it. My comment may find itself below a vast wall of anecdotal text, however, I'm hopeful, HN.

<comment><USER17> "Anecdotal evidence" is now part of my vocabulary.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Some HN comments recently recommanded the book "why we sleep".

After having read it, I can't prevent my self from doing the same. It definitly changed my views on the topic, and while it has a bit of a melodramatic tone, it is a well written entertaining piece that feeds you with data backed evidences with ease.

<comment><USER19> I've just bought it on that recommendation, but have only read the table of contents, yet.

I was a bit disappointed that he does not discuss some common sleep disorders, only others that I haven't recently been diagnosed with.

<comment><USER20> In the book he says he chose the most prevalent to avoid meandering too much. His discussion of those disorders and the more general discussion of what is happening in the body when we sleep have helped me pinpoint some issues I have been having, even though I don't have a sleep disorder. I highly recommend it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This kind of tracking (and the app) sound interesting, but seem to presuppose that you're sleeping alone.

It's also kind of a shame that they don't have integration with Garmin (depending on device) and Fitbit - many of the devices from both of those companies track heartrate, movement and sleep without the need to leave your phone on the bed but there's not much integration there. It looks like Garmin has a lot of that raw data available to download, but it's per-day individual downloads of .fit files ([https://forums.garmin.com/forum/into- sports/running/forerunn...](https://forums.garmin.com/forum/into- sports/running/forerunner-920xt-aa/112758-is-there-a-fit-file-viewer-or-a- published-file-format))

One thing worth noting for people considering one of the fitness trackers: Garmin's software doesn't recognize multiple sleep periods, so if you nap then go do something it either ignores one sleep period or just treats it as one long sleep period (with a big "awake" period in the middle). The vivosmart 3 at least does also track sleep phases.

<comment><USER22> YMMV but my vivosmart 3 is useless at sleep tracking. I read in bed, and my heart rate goes down while i'm doing this and the thing invariably thinks i'm sleeping, messing up the stats.

<comment><USER21> There's only so much that can be done with a motion sensor and heart rate data. Personally I try to burn the candle enough that if I'm in bed I should really be sleeping. I can read on a couch with a cat.

If you are going to be reading in bed and want better sleep detection, try using the hand with the watch for page turning, or if it's a device and you just tap to turn pages try holding it with your watch hand. Just that motion may be enough for it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is really interesting. I may have to start tracking on my own. But I'd do it a bit differently.

One is that I don't think happiness is exactly the thing I'd track. I'd also want to track sleep cycle, not just sleep amount. My experience is that too little sleep or a disrupted sleep schedule has a negative effect on my mood stability. If I sleep enough and at roughly the same time every day, I'm more emotionally resilient.

One sleep hack I recommend to everybody is to try to avoid waking up to an alarm. I now adjust my wake time mostly by adjusting my bedtime. This certainly makes my mornings better, but it also means I fret less about getting the right number of hours, in that I trust my body to generally self- regulate on the right amount of sleep.

<comment><USER24> _One sleep hack I recommend to everybody is to try to avoid waking up to an alarm. I now adjust my wake time mostly by adjusting my bedtime. This certainly makes my mornings better, but it also means I fret less about getting the right number of hours, in that I trust my body to generally self- regulate on the right amount of sleep._

Not everyone has the luxury nor the natural sleep cycle to be able to do this, though, not at times society expects us to be awake.

I've had luck getting good sleep waking about 8 or 9 with an alarm, but if I do not use the alarm, I oversleep. It doesn't matter what "healthy sleep habits" I use. Anything before 8 or 9 is impossible without an alarm, even with healthy sleep habits and reasonable bedtime - when I can get to sleep early enough to do such a thing.

I can train myself to wake around 10 or 11 _most_ , but not all days, and the alarm is really more of a backup than anything. I can usually trust myself to wake by noon on my own, though.

You see, I am naturally a night owl. It isn't age: I've been like this since I was young and I'm nearly 40. As in, I chose sleep over santa presents. But additionally, my sleep needs change through the month, corresponding with a female hormone cycle. of course, that same cycle makes it harder to sleep earlier in the evening during times I need more sleep.

<comment><USER23> I was also naturally a night owl, but that switched for me once I a) automated my lighting so there was a consistent day-night cycle in my bedroom, and b) I took up running, so that I get a fair bit of regular cardio. No idea if that will work for you, but it may be worth a try. I also dropped regular caffeine as a habit, and spent a while paying down sleep debt.

I will also use a sleep-cycle sensitive alarm on the rare occasions I need to be up unusually early, which I think helps minimize the disruptive effects of an alarm.

If you can't you can't, of course. But I definitely recommend it if you can.

<comment><USER24> I've tried nearly everything, largely because I am generally afraid of losing a job due to being tardy.

I used to drink little to no caffeine (didn't do coffee, nor soda, etc). I now drink coffee regularly with no effect, still no soda. I've tried getting regular exercise, though running is actually painful. I still run into the same issue: A couple nights of going to bed at a decent time, then by the 3rd night I am awake 2 hours later. There is no point in lying in bed when I can't sleep, though I've tried that too.

Consistent day-night cycle helps very little - I'm too far north. Winter days are 4.5 hours long, and midsummer you can read outside at night. I didn't always live up north, but it didnt help much then. The sun coming up is a non- issue for my sleeping. I do find that dimming the front room lights a while before sleeping helps to an extent, but not enough to wake at 6-7am and get enough sleep during the week. The main concern is that sometimes I simply won't wake to the alarm. At all. Or phone calls... I slept through 17 phone calls once. Physical shaking helps.

Part of my issue is that the actual quality of my sleep suffers with early wakings, even when I can get drowsy early. I generally require between 7 and 9 hours sleep per night to feel well-rested: 6 hours is too little, but doable for one night. But even that changes: Sleeping from 12am to 6am produces poorer quality sleep than 2am to 8am. I've often considered simply going to the doctor. I've quit jobs that started too early as well, and try not to take jobs that have early wakings too often.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I've been using "Sleep Cycle" since 2014 and learned a ton about myself in the process.

Most importantly, I learned that I need almost 8 hours sleep to feel my best and that I'm just subpar on the days when I don't get that much. Less ability to focus, less emotional control, less desire to exercise, less ability to resist temptation. Less happiness.

For me, it's optimal if I set the sleep cycle alarm for 8 hours and 15 minutes from time I lay down. If that all works out, I'm set up for a much more productive and happier day.

<comment><USER26> Sleep Cycle is amazing, and I also had a watch in the 00s that did the same thing. The concept of the alarm timing with your cycle is so revolutionary that I'm really surprised it has not caught on anywhere else. It should be a fundamental feature of all smart watches, but it's nowhere to be seen. I don't really care to just track sleep if such tracking does nothing but let you see some pretty charts.

<comment><USER27> Most people need to be somewhere at a specific time in the morning; a variable alarm clock doesn't make much sense unless they also leave a huge buffer. But for childless tech workers who can roll into the office any time before 11am standup... absolutely.

<comment><USER26> A 30 minute window really isn't that big of a deal. You just set the end time to when you need to be up, and then if it goes off before that, then you wake up refreshed with a little extra time. Your choice is really whether you want to get up refreshed, possibly a little early, or wake up abruptly in the wrong cycle and be groggy all morning. Either way, the solution to getting more sleep is to go to bed earlier if you have a fixed time to wake up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Anecdotally I've noticed I'm much less productive when I sleep too little. I try to get eight hours.

But, I've been having trouble sleeping in recently. I want to sleep more, but can't. I'm not sure what causes it - I used to have the problem of staying up late then sleeping till 11-12ish naturally. (I never use an alarm)

I have two observations:

1\. A couple months ago I started going to my balcony for morning sunlight upon waking. I had read morning light resets sleep cycles 2\. I notice I need to pee when I wake up, and have trouble falling asleep again after. It's summer in Canada, so some light gets in around 5 am or so

I'm wondering if I reset my cycle, and now I "wake up" if there's morning light present, whereas I didn't before.

Anyone have this experience? I never had trouble sleeping in before, so this confuses me.

<comment><USER29> I can't speak for you, but I know that for me, inability to sleep is always the product of some unresolved worry or other preoccupation. Dealing with that (in my case, that means spending time meditating) solves the problem of waking up feeling unrested. However that doesn't necessarily mean sleeping more, since I find that during periods of consistent meditation I generally need a couple hours less sleep to feel fully rested.

YMMV, but ask yourself whether there's anything that might be preoccupying your subconscious that might be triggering your sleep issues.

<comment><USER28> Oddly enough, I'm significantly more relaxed than I used to be when I slept more. (Maybe I need it less as a result, and so my body seeks it less urgently.)

I do think I'd be better rested with more though. I'll give meditation a shot, it can't hurt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> To me what really matters is not how many hours of sleep I get but how difficult it is for me to wake up. I've found that there is a direct relation between this and my happiness.

In periods where I am very productive, I have a reason to wake up, I know what I want and need to do. Then I'm very happy, life has a purpose. It doesn't matter how many hours I sleep.

In the other hand, when I amb lost and don't know what I should be doing that day, I have a very hard time waking up.

<comment><USER31> Makes sense, if you wake up properly, it's easier to get productivity momentum going

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Sleep is one of those things that you don't really notice when it gets better.

You feel good, you feel more energetic, you feel all the benefits that are well known, but you don't notice.

You only notice it when you go back to shitty sleep and realize how much better off you are when you are sleeping the appropriate number of hours.

I've struggled with sleep for years. I won't go into my long journey but it suffices to say that after all the supplements, different cpap machines, "sleep hack", etc., the only thing that actually worked was discipline. Go to bed early, wake up early, same time, everyday.

</comment><comment><USER33> Am I the only one who felt like that was a _lot_ of charts, data and extrapolation for a sample size of 1? In my study I did on myself, I found it easier to fall asleep after drinking heavily and consuming large amounts of greasy food. [My usual anecdote here is actually that I appear to sleep better & more when I get a lot of exercise.]

My point is, there is tremendous variation in 'natural' sleep patterns - <USER2> related behaviors - across the population. I need a larger study if I'm going to digest this much information.

<comment><USER34> Maybe I wasn't reading closely enough, but I don't think this was supposed to be a persuasive argument as to why everyone should change their sleep habits to match the author's. I read it as an interesting exploration of some data collected one person collected on their every day life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'm getting a Google Drive permission error on several (but not all) charts... not sure if that's a problem on your end or theirs, but you might want to look into it.

Thanks for this! Very interesting stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah shit, that should not happen and I think that's on Google's end. Just in case, what device and browser are you on?

Thanks for letting me know and the nice words!

<comment><USER36> I have the same issue: Linux Desktop + Firefox 60

Chromium seems to display all charts without any problems (same computer).

Btw. it looks like once a chart has been loaded successfully, it is cached so that you have to clear/disable the browser cache in order to see the issue again.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Those of you who are getting lots of sleep and also consume caffeine during the day you probably don't realize that if you cut caffeine you would require much less sleep. Try it sometime for at least a month.

<comment><USER38> > Try it sometime for at least a month.

I choose life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Their "methodology" of tracking happiness

[https://www.trackinghappiness.com/about/method/](https://www.trackinghappiness.com/about/method/)

Not knocking on the idea of sleeping more & general well-being, but "tracking happiness" seems so wildly out of touch with reality that it's hard for me to buy into this analysis.

<comment><USER25> Tracking happiness is simply about being mindful of your own emotional state.

I'm genuinely interested to hear about why you think that's "wildly out of touch with reality"?

<comment><USER40> Lifestyles, philosophies, religions can optimize for happiness or truth ... pick one. The HT theorem.

<comment><USER41> Or you could optimize for happiness-truth product. This would lead you to lifestyles, philosophies, and religions which remove any negative correlation between happiness and truth (which I would argue have no inherent, unavoidable relationship with each other).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I noticed that when I rush the waking up process I get more energy I have happier mood throughout the day. The more quick the transition from waking up to being caught up in an activity(and that could even be the commute) the more energy I have throughout the day. Any lingering in bed affects the whole day negatively. Does anybody else experience this?

<comment><USER43> Yes, if I wake up too early it's better form to start the day than staying in bed another hour

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> > I fall asleep quite easily. It usually doesn't take me more than 30 minutes.

I generally fall asleep within a minute or two of head hitting the pillow. What should be normal?

<comment><USER45> I envy people like you.

Through a lot of my teen years, it could take me up to an hour to fall asleep. Once I got to college and I was able to adjust my sleep schedule a bit (no longer had to be at school by 7:30am), I could do it in 30 minutes. Now (mid-20s) I can do it in as little as 10-15 sometimes, if I'm lucky. More often I think it's 15-20.

I dunno what it is exactly. I feel like my brain just constantly wants to be thinking about things, like solving problems from my day or imagining fanciful scenarios or planning upcoming events. What do you think about when you lie down? Or are you able to just switch it off and not think about anything?

<comment><USER46> I used to have very serious sleep issues. They are vastly better. A few thoughts:

In order to readily get to sleep, you need to be both physically and mentally tired. This is part of why reading in bed or doing crossword puzzles is so popular -- it helps make you mentally tired.

If you have any kind of health issues, working on that will improve sleep issues.

A food and health journal can be an enormously useful tool for teasing out details peculiar to you.

Exercise moves lymph. If you have been sedentary a long time, it would be wise to ramp up gradually. There can be a lot of fallout if you suddenly start working out hard.

If you allergies or respiratory problems, switching to hypoallergenic bedding products, like buckwheat pillows, all cotton sheets, etc can make a big difference for some people. It can also help to generally keep you sleep area very clean, dust free etc.

Co Q 10 in the morning about 12 to 14 hours before you want to sleep at night can help your circadian clock. It wakes you up and encourages the body to produce melatonin about 12vto 14 later. Most sources say 12 hours, but my firsthand experience suggests 12 to 14 hours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I can say from personal experience I've noticed that when I don't get enough sleep, the next day I'm noticeably more prone to stress, sentences are more difficult to construct, and my memory worsens.

Proper sleep is a very high priority for me these days.

<comment><USER48> Your last two symptoms definitely resonate with me, with the addition of loss of self control, which I definitely notice while eating.

The first symptom (more prone to stress) seems to have a tipping point with me. If I get between 4-8 hours it is certainly true, but below that I feel considerably less stress, more creativity, and an increase in humor. I'm not sure why.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Interesting project; not entirely surprising that sleep deficit increases possibility of low happiness, but doesn't force it.

Definitely correlates with my happiness levels being much more all over the map in the last 6mths of running an involuntary sleep deficit due to a shoulder injury that impairs sleep (&worse the week after the surgery).

I've also noticed a definite thinking deficit as this wears on, and am thinking of doing a tracking project.

Rather than just going by subjective 'feel like I'm (not) thinking well', does anyone know of a good site that has a deep library of correlated mind test questions such that one could take repeated tests but not encounter repeat questions?

<comment><USER50> Working memory is a decent proxy for overall brain function, and straightforward to test, eg. with a Dual N-Back game like [http://brainscale.net/dual-n-back](http://brainscale.net/dual-n-back)

You need to have a baseline score to compare with. Your score will improve pretty quick in the beginning and then start to level out.

I also like typing speed tests, to test the effects of exhaustion, sleep deprivation and various states of mind. (In some cases, the speed is actually increased, but typically at the cost of accuracy.)

For typing speed I use [https://typeracer.com](https://typeracer.com) which has some excellent book and movie quotes to type.

<comment><USER49> cool, thanks!

another one, w/ a somewhat different angle I'd found was a straight mental math trainer, discovered from another commenter here on HN: [http://www.mental-math-trainer.com/](http://www.mental-math-trainer.com/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Averaging about 4.5h of sleep per night (down at around 2A up at 6:30A without fail — #noSnooze). I'm in my 40s, and was the kid that l watched David Letterman at 1AM in junior high, and an avid coffee drinker by early high school. Every time I read an article/study on sleep I get inspired to tack on a few hours to reap said benefits, but never follow through.

Based on what I've read, I'm writing waking hour checks that science says I can't cash. And apparently, after this study, will do so unhappily.

</comment><comment><USER52> So,

I slept great the first 25 years of my life, but I've had a ton of sleep problems as a start-up founder over the years. They developed over 10+ years building a $200MM plus company from the ground up. I was traveling all over the world, in different time zones and working 7 days a week. I would recommend treating sleep really seriously and not 'breaking' your ability to sleep.

I have learned ways to get some sleep again, but basically haven't been able to 'fix these issues' for the past 15 years. I have learned to manage the sleeplessness - and am finally back up to 7 hours or so a night on average most weeks (8 is my sweet spot). During this entire time I thought I was healthy, but sleep and lack thereof concerns me. I have read a ton on the subject, tried everything (CBT / Behavioral therapy, Hypnosis, Chinese Medicine, Acupuncture, Sleeping pills, Herbal remedies, etc). Haven't tried Cannibis.

I am currently working with 4 leading sleep researchers with decades each in helping people sleep. We're building a personal 'sleep assistant' to use modified CBT program in an automated fashion. We are in second trial this summer. First trial showed 45 minute average sleep improvement (in people sleeping < 7 hours a night to start). Most people do better with 7-8 hours / night even if they think they don't need it. I need it, but need help 'calming down' my mind enough to get it.

If you're interested in taking part in any alpha studies (after this current research round of 200 people) or learning more or getting on mailing list, email me at email@example.com.

Having two daughters was rough on my sleep, but we also did co-sleeping (Asian wife who breastfed).

</comment><comment><USER53> This is a really cool process, but the author stops just short of completing the analysis.

> It's impossible to determine any correlation at all based on this graph. I > know my happiness is influenced by a lot of factors, but so far I cannot > tell if sleep is one of them.

Yeah, this is true. You can't just look at a graph and say that the job is done. This is the entire point for the statistics field. You need to do an actual statistical test for correlation -- not just plot a graph. Obvious trends are definitely visible in graphs, but more subtle correlations are often obscured and not visible.

I'd be much more interested to see what statistical analysis on the data looks like, rather than just a graph at the end. With a huge focus on methods, I'm flabbergasted that some form of regression wasn't tried at all. It's probably worth chopping out obvious problem areas, like relationship stress, though. (You could also just add categorical traits to the model, though, and let relationship stress act as a factor on happiness directly.)

\----

A tangent: it's pretty well known that sleep deprivation can actually improve symptoms in people who are depressed -- especially at extremes. I don't know if this has anything to do with a large scale analysis like this, though.

<comment><USER3> It would still be fun to do a simple OLs multilinear regression.

OP: start with a multiple regression, then do a PCA, to see which factors may have commonalities.

If you don't know how, upload your data somewhere. Me or anyone else here could do that in 5 min. The conclusions would certainly be more interesting than the wall of text - even if it covers just 1 person, you have many datapoints!

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> On this subject, if you're interested in these kinds of studies on happiness- I've been slowly working my way through the book "The Nature Fix". Tangentially pertinent.

[https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/02/nature-fix- brain...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/02/nature-fix-brain-happy- florence-williams/)

<comment><USER50> I'm getting my nature fix right now. I found visiting the park once a day does wonders for my sense of well being.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> I'd be interested in people's views on the influence of sleep on aging. I've never been a great sleeper, possibly have sleep apnoea as well. 5 or 6 broken hours a night is normal for me and I feel that I am aging more quickly than average.

<comment><USER56> Sleep is when the brain 'repairs' itself, so you definitely need it. Do you snore? You may be waking up often due to lack of oxygen. I recommend you do a sleep study.

<comment><USER55> I should do that all right. I snore and I've been told that I basically stop breathing at times which is as unpleasant as the snoring for the person listening!

<comment><USER57> > I snore and I've been told that I basically stop breathing at times which is > as unpleasant as the snoring for the person listening

Snoring is fine. Forget about the inconvenience it causes on others. It's when you STOP snoring that you should be concerned. I have sleep apnea and I know what it is like.

Go get yourself checked ASAP. You do NOT want to suffer long term side effects of sleep apnea, and not all of them are reversible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Interesting read. I suffer from psychosomatic insomnia so am no stranger to that constant fatigue and drag of lack of sleep. One thing I have noted is that, on the days that I actually _do_ get a considerable amount of sleep and feel rested, I am overall happier, more motivated, and just in a better mood overall.

Likewise, on the really rough days where I don't get much to no sleep, I'm irritable and all but useless at work and around the house. I've come to manage these days over the years, but I do note that things still bubble up and I am easily agitated.

Interestingly enough, medicine to help me sleep does not result in a better mood, only that natural sleep.

</comment><comment><USER59> When I wrote Mastering Rust, I did most of the work during the only available productive hours of the day: 20-05. Amazing legal narcotics i.e. coffee helped quite a lot.

I wasn't miserable, but that's mostly due to the excitement of progressing.

<comment><USER60> Why is late night programming / writing so darn productive? No distractions?

<comment><USER59> Well, I have theories. One, it breaks habits. You may have teached yourself over the years to procrastinate during the day, but not during the night.

Two, you know it's painful enough that you'd rather not waste the time doing something stupid and worthless.

Three, it lowers your mental state enough that you'll just drudge on like a robot.

<comment><USER61> For me its about anxiety, and that ability to drudge on.

Certain parts of my brain fatigue and completely turn off. After an all- nighter my emotional resilience is off the charts the next day.

I think a little slower, but so much more calmly, and logically.

At my startup my co-founders actually requested I pull all-nighters before pitching VC's because the effect was so profound. Public speaking is so easy when you stop caring and treat everything like an item on a checklist instead of a potential catastrophe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> If my own anecdotal experience says anything, I can easily slash two to three hours of sleep, when I run four to five miles in the morning.

During snowy winter weeks I am mostly sedentary, I need eight to nine hours to feel refreshed, and I need coffee to stay awake after lunch.

When weather is good and I run four to five miles in the morning everyday, I only need to sleep from midnight to 6 AM. I wake up at that time automatically without alarm.

I feel 40 minutes of running can equal two hours of extra sleep. Perhaps running increases blood flow and also helps clean up trashes in the brain, as what people claim sleeping does to your brain.

And yes, I feel so happy after running.

<comment><USER63> Note that "During snowy winter weeks" it's also the darkest part of the year, which also has a known correlation to (un)happiness.

So it may be "just" the light or it could be both your lifestyle change and the lack of light siphoning happiness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Surely there is not enough sleep because you are buzzing after a great experience and/or anticipation of events tomorrow, and then there is anxiety and bad sleep patterns because of stress?

Spending too long in bed due to feeling lethargic and not wanting to get up doesn't result in happiness.

I am a big fan of 8 hours of good sleep a night, and definitely need it to be on top of things, and on some occasions to ward off depression and fuzzy thinking...

</comment><comment><USER65> Tangential and shameless plug: I created my own offline app[1] for a very simplistic tracking of my sleep habits. It helped me to be more disciplined in getting the right amount of sleep (atleast for most of the days). Any feedbacks on this is appreciated.

[1] - [https://sleepeasyapp.com](https://sleepeasyapp.com)

</comment><comment><USER66> I'm both an insomniac and I have delayed sleep syndrome. When my parents brought me home from the hospital I was only sleeping 2-3 hours a day. I was a planned baby, but with two teenagers, and parents who were nearing 40 having a baby that didn't sleep, almost destroyed the family, so I'm told. When I did sleep it was usually from 7am to 9am. If you have children let that sink in for a minute.

My insomnia was awful from 14 to 19, I was operating with on average 3 or 4 days of no sleep, a couple of days of 2-3 hours of sleep a day, and back to 3 -4 days of no sleep, wash rinse repeat. I had lots of 6,7,8 days of no sleep and once went 10 days. For me, then, I was just awake, I didn't force anything, I was just not sleepy, and I couldn't force myself to sleep.

During my junior and senor year of college I started smoking pot, and I started sleeping on a regular basis, going to bed about 1-1:30 and getting 6/7 hours of sleep. I'm not really sure if I was happier, or more productive, I was definitely more relaxed, it was probably the pot not the sleep. Of course once I graduated and started getting drug tested I needed to give up smoking pot. I hope soon my state will legalize and maybe I can find a strain that helps.

I did a couple of sleep studies two which lasted 5 days and for one I went sleepless for the study, they said I never once displayed any indication that my body wanted to sleep during those 5 days. They wanted to study me but sitting in a room hooked up to machines for days on end was not my idea of fun, since I didn't sleep they wanted to know what was going on with me during my constant "up" times and they wanted to see if they could understand what triggered my sleep when it did happen.

As I got into my 30's my insomnia became less of an issue, but the delayed sleep issue went back to when I was a baby, my body wanted to sleep from 7am until 9/10am, putting a real kink in my life. While I didn't technically have insomnia, I usually wasn't getting any sleep during the work week, luckily I was wired for not sleeping much so it wasn't a career killer, it was tough on my wife and children, and still is.

As I got into my late 40's my delayed sleep time move to back to about 4am, and my sleeping needs have increased, I now usually get 3-4 hours of sleep a day. So far things have remained the same into my mid 50's.

If I want to I can still go a few day without sleep, I've worked on big projects and it can be wonderful to just knock out 72 hours of work in 3 days. When I get "sleepy" it's more like my body suggesting that it would accommodate sleeping if I so choose, if I ignore the offer the opportunity passes and I'm just awake. From talking to others the feeling of sleep comes over them and they have no choice but to succumb

As a side note I don't take drugs prescription or otherwise, nor do I drink

<comment><USER61> Holy shit, that is incredible.

Did you make an alt account just for this comment? Do you feel embarrassed by your lack of sleep for some reason?

<comment><USER66> I'm a reader of this forum, I've never really felt the need to comment on anything else.

Anyone who knows me could identify me from this post, there aren't a lot of people who have my relationship with sleep. I've met people who have insomnia, and they fall apart during day two of no sleep, it wears them out. Me, I'm just awake, I don't start slowing down because I'm awake for 72 or 96 hours. I worked 5 days straight with no break, everyone else worked in shifts,I was always observed there wasn't a period where I could sneak off and have a nap. It freaked everyone out that I was exactly the same on day 5 as I was on day 1, and they were all beat down because they were doing long hours with reduced sleep.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> On the graphs a positive sleep deprivation number is actually a surfeit of sleep. This seems backwards. Nice article otherwise.

<comment><USER68> Thanks for clarifying that here -- it took some close reading to understand that. With an otherwise nicely detailed account, the mislabelling of the axes is jarring. I would definitely expect a positive number to correlate to more sleep deprivation, if the axis is labelled "Sleep Deprivation" or any variant thereof.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> Tangentially related: I'm looking for an app that will ask me how happy / tired / productive I'm feeling randomly throughout the day, and allow me to export this data, so that I can correlate this with my sleep and diet.

</comment><comment><USER70> the graph reads to me like usually it doesn't matter at all, but sometimes slight sleep deprevation makes a bad day worse. those few than are the overall worst days

</comment><comment><USER71> Many factors influence our mood. Yes, sleep is one of them. So is our diet, social life, work life. The key is to try and balance everything.

</comment><comment><USER72> Anybody using a physical approach ? that a person is a pendulum and keeping rhythms in check is the best way to save energy and avoir wear ?

</comment><comment><USER73> Very interesting project. Just a minor detail.

> However, I have always recovered from those periods by catching up on sleep.

This is actually a common misconception. In reality, it is not possible to "catch up" on missed sleeping hours.

Source: [https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-news/you-cant-catch- sleep](https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-news/you-cant-catch-sleep)

<comment><USER74> That mentions (without citation) one study about a very extreme and weird version of catching up on sleep. I doubt this person was talking about sleeping an extra 10 hours in one night to make up for 28 hours of missed sleep over 2 weeks.

<comment><USER73> I can't seem to recall where I first read this, but I am confident I've read it in multiple articles and books (I have a keen interest in this topic due to serious personal sleep issues).

But I seem to stand corrected[1]. Thanks for your comment.

1\. [http://time.com/5288704/can-you-catch-up-on- sleep/](http://time.com/5288704/can-you-catch-up-on-sleep/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> TLDR: Author has no idea if there's a correlation based on personal data.

</comment><comment><USER76> so THIS is what's been keeping you awake lately...

</comment><comment><USER77> There is no reason to sleep more than 8-9.5hrs. If you are sleeping more than this, see a doctor and see what kind of hormones are not balanced.

It's probably not as bad as undersleeping to oversleep, but it's not how your body is supposed to work.

<comment><USER78> More than 8, or more than 9.5? Which is it?

<comment><USER77> It's a range depending on other aspects.

Or do you think the human body ticks down 480 minutes exactly?</comment></comment></comment>


SolarCity Rooftop Struggle in Nevada Fuels Solar Wars - <AUTHOR> https://edgylabs.com/2016/11/17/solarcity-rooftop-solar-struggle-nv-energy/ <comment><USER2> Feeding large amounts of excess PV solar-generated power back to the grid is problematic because neither the grid nor most residential solar installations have any storage capacity. If you return power to the grid, it must be used somewhere else immediately. As I understand it, peak PV generation times don't coincide with peak grid demand times.</comment>