NOAA upgrades the U.S. global weather forecast model - <AUTHOR> https://www.noaa.gov/media-release/noaa-upgrades-us-global-weather-forecast-model <comment><USER3> If anyone is interested in doing your own thing with weather data, check out MADIS [0]. There are various levels of access, some of which require NOAA approval. But if you're serious about making weather predictions, it's a good thread to pull on. I once set up a MADIS node, and our server was shut down very quickly by Amazon for "suspicious traffic", so beware of that - there's a lot of data that gets pushed through the system. If I remember correctly, it was kind of a pain in the ass to get set up/configured, but it was pretty cool.

[0] [https://madis.noaa.gov/index.shtml](https://madis.noaa.gov/index.shtml)

<comment><USER4> Can you go in to more details about how to get this setup?

<comment><USER3> I honestly don't remember any more. At the time, we were working with NOAA, and I remember a problem that was solved by talking to an admin at NOAA (our IP needed to be on some official whitelist or something), but that may have been for a restricted data set. We didn't end up using it for long because the client said so.

But I dug around for some information to maybe get you started.

Installation: [https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/doc/INSTALL.unix](https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/doc/INSTALL.unix)

API: [https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/madis_api.shtml](https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/madis_api.shtml)

Data restrictions: [https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/madis_restrictions.shtml](https://madis.ncep.noaa.gov/madis_restrictions.shtml)

Another resource that may help: [https://press3.mcs.anl.gov/forest/regional- models/global-dat...](https://press3.mcs.anl.gov/forest/regional- models/global-data-acquisition/)

When I was working on this stuff, I found that a DFS on various government subdomains (like MADIS) was the best way to find information. It was tedious, but it worked.

It's also helpful to put on your fortran hat. For example, I once attended a Haskell meetup where someone wrote a parser to deal with parsing binary files from NOAA. I also was in a meeting (with some NOAA folks) once where I was asked if I "would prefer an ASCII file, or a binary one". This is not a world that operates on JSON or XML. Expect binary blobs with flags (bits) that change the meaning of other flags in fun and exotic ways. The binary nature of the data can help with data throughput limits, but boy is it a pain to deal with.

<comment><USER5> > This is not a world that operates on JSON or XML. Expect binary blobs with > flags (bits) that change the meaning of other flags in fun and exotic ways.

That bring back memories... As a government contractor I've had to work with sensor data (seismic, radar, etc) in various formats that were developed well before the rise of XML and JSON :(

My favorite was a mixed ASCII and binary format, where each data record in a file had an ASCII header that described the format of the following block of binary, and pretty much anything could be different between records, even within the same data file (Time units? Integers? Floats? 16 bit integers? 64 bit? Big/Little Endian?).

I had to write a parser for that :'(

<comment><USER6> The most "fun" I've ever had was decoding command and telemetry from piece of equipment for a ground station. The box would spit out this massive frame of data. It was a very long ASCII string that you would turn into binary to break into 6bit BCD values (no clue why they didn't use 4bit...). There were random flags of odd bit lengths (sometimes just a single bit, sometimes 5bits) thrown in between numbers for arbitrary reasons rather than just having all the binary flags up front. My python script was this ugly mess of slicing up the frame to turn it all into a very nice struct I could pass to the rest of the system. The manual with this piece of hardware was some old scan that must have been xeroxed a million times over so some portions of the document were just unreadable and you had to guess what those bits did. Other parts of the frame were just undocumented. Commands were send one by one as single letter with the actual ASCII representation of the numerical command parameter.

When I started the project, I looked online to see if anyone had done any previous work on this thing. A vendor was selling a GUI for the thing for $2000, I scoffed at the price and started working it myself. By the time I was done, it had probably cost my employer more than that but at least we had our own code that could connect to whatever you wanted rather than a GUI with a no API.

<comment><USER7> Did you try to sell it too?

<comment><USER6> It was an internal project for a large company so no.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The fact sheet showcases the improvements in the forecast: [https://www.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/DOCUMEN...](https://www.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/DOCUMENT%20-%20Global%20forecast%20system%20fact%20sheet.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER9> This is probably in response to the Euro weather model, which has been producing better forecasts. Especially for named storms.

<comment><USER10> The Europeans are putting big money into weather forecasting, "The goal is to be able to provide, by 2025, reliable forecasts up to two weeks in advance."

[https://www.zdnet.com/article/europes-big-weather- supercompu...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/europes-big-weather- supercomputer-data-center-is-about-to-leave-uk/)

As far as I know other than this model upgrade, there are no major investment being made in American weather forecasting.

<comment><USER11> How far from that goal are they at the moment?

<comment><USER12> Judging by last week's forecasts for my region: pretty far off. Sudden rain in the regions of 10mm/m² and a lot of clouds when sunny weather was predicted. The exact opposite happened as well. Temperatures were off by 5-8°C, too.

All of this for same day forecasts, not even 2 days in advance.

<comment><USER11> rain is pretty hard to predict though. I guess what matters the most is if you can reliably predict major events like heavy storms rather than if you will get a bit wet later today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Somewhat related, what are some good weather sites for storm monitoring? I've been using ventusky[0] for rain forecasts and mrms[1] for storm and hail conditions. Is there anything better?

[0][https://www.ventusky.com/](https://www.ventusky.com/)

[1][https://mrms.nssl.noaa.gov/qvs/product_viewer/](https://mrms.nssl.noaa.gov/qvs/product_viewer/)

<comment><USER14> I really like [https://www.windy.com/](https://www.windy.com/)

<comment><USER15> Windy.com allows you to compare models, which varies based on the region you have zoomed in to.

This is really handy as national models can be much better for short-term and higher resolution predictions.

It has the widest range of models freely available that I'm aware of, including the commercial ECMWF model.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I just wish we had a weather radar here in central Oregon

[https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-other-radar- gap-e...](https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-other-radar-gap-eastern- slopes-of.html)

<comment><USER17> How interested are you in getting this done? Below is a link to a phased array demonstrator (SPY-1A) that was dismantled and replaced with a newer version in 2016. Might find out where SPY-1A is sitting (the phased array may have been returned to the US Navy), and since it'll perform both weather and aircraft surveillance, might be easier to sell to stakeholders for the coverage gap.

[https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/tools/radar/mpar/](https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/tools/radar/mpar/)

Alternatively, Roberts Field appears to be a major commercial air hub in central Oregon. You might argue from a safety perspective to your Congressional representatives (perhaps in concert with local air carriers and AOPA) that the airport needs a TDWR station (cost will be ~$4MM-8MM), which could also provide NOAA with the necessary weather surveillance data. Thunderstorms aren't common on the West Coast though, hence the lack of TDWR stations in West Coast states. If you pursue this route, you'd want to get funds for this into some sort of federal transportation bill, as part of enhancing the safety of the air transportation system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_Doppler_Weather_Radar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_Doppler_Weather_Radar)

<comment><USER16> I've mentioned it to our representative, Greg Walden, in the past, but he doesn't seem interested, which is a pity, because this is the kind of non- partisan stuff that they ought to be getting done for their constituents.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Some meteorologists are not in love with the new model. My local forecaster/weather blogger suggests that the v3 model tends to overestimate cold snaps and move storms too fast in the mid-latitudes: [https://blogs.mprnews.org/updraft/2019/06/milder-with- spotty...](https://blogs.mprnews.org/updraft/2019/06/milder-with-spotty- showers-friday-is-noaas-gfs-upgrade-any-better/)

</comment><comment><USER19> And it's extremely dubious whether there is actually any improvement... [https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2019/04/us-numerical- weather-...](https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2019/04/us-numerical-weather- prediction-darkest.html)

</comment><comment><USER20> I was researching weather prediction not long ago. From my nieve perspective it seems that dispute all the increased gpu computational power and advances in machine learning, there have not been any great advances in weather prediction. Is this true?

Edit: Downvotes for simply asking a question. sigh.

<comment><USER21> I worked as a forecaster for a bit but never made it to the research world (studied theoretical pde instead of computational)... however at the time _huge_ gains had been made in data assimilation. One fact that has stuck with me was that ~1/3 of the computation time for the UK Met global model run was consumed by data assimilation. I don't remember statistics anymore but data assimilation schemes were a big driver of improved forecast skill.

I also recall the ECMWF had surprisingly accurate long range forecasts based on ensembles. It could predict 500mb heights out two weeks, no sweat.

Re: your comments... My guess is that a gpu isn't suited for use in an operational model due to data access patterns (and possibly not even helpful with the solver). But again, I'm not a computational pde guy. Also, perhaps machine learning would be useful but that would be post-processing or perhaps parameterizing sub-grid phenomenon. There's already a process called model output statistics (MOS) for adjusting raw fields from a weather model.

<comment><USER22> The physics is pretty well known at this point, and there's only so much you can gain by increasing from second to third order approximation. The errors in the initial conditions are just larger. Most of the action has been on data assimilation and better parameterizations because of that.

I've been out of the field for ten years now, but it's really nice to see improvements to the core physics to this degree.

I'm still skeptical of your supposed two week 500 heights forecast from the ECMWF model. I live near the western Pacific (i.e. the data hole) and it's really easy to find crazy model solutions after 7 days. And I'm pretty sure you weren't looking at the Southern Hemisphere.

<comment><USER21> > I'm still skeptical of your supposed two week 500 heights forecast from the > ECMWF model.

You're probably right to be skeptical, for the record I was only a forecaster for a short period of time over ten years ago... didn't even serve my full four year commitment as I volunteered to get out under the Air Force "force shaping" at the time. I was stationed near Rammstein and we created forecasts for Europe. I was referring to the ECMWF _ensemble_ products, specifically.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> A while back, I found a NOAA search that showed historic chance of rain by month:

[https://www.wrh.noaa.gov/images/mtr/sjc_pcpn_prob.gif](https://www.wrh.noaa.gov/images/mtr/sjc_pcpn_prob.gif)

Since then, I spent hours trying to find this page again, unsuccessfully. All I have is this URL for San Jose. (Replacing "sjc" with other airport codes doesn't always work, since "mtr" is a region code?)

Anyone know where this precipitation data lives?

<comment><USER24> I made this: [https://www.wmo.int/cpdb/united-states-of- america](https://www.wmo.int/cpdb/united-states-of-america) \- click on "climate normals"

<comment><USER25> Clicking on the "SEATTLE" link,

        Missing Controller
        Error: Climate.DashboardController could not be found.

<comment><USER24> That sucks, I'm sorry. I made this about 5 years ago and am no longer involved in the project.

<comment><USER23> Thanks for the reply!

Was it accessing/presenting raw NOAA data? Or a different source? I notice the data is thru 1990; different from NOAA.

Is the php source available for reverse engineering?

<comment><USER24> The data comes from weather stations all across the US, which I assume are managed or operated by NOAA. This project is at the World Meteorological Organization, an international organization of weather organizations - <USER2> which the NOAA is a member. Presumably this means it's official NOAA data.

With some minor effort you could extract the raw data, in JSON form, from [https://www.wmo.int/cpdb/climate/climate_normal/per_country/...](https://www.wmo.int/cpdb/climate/climate_normal/per_country/USA/source:dashboard)

If I remember correctly the data came from a CD-ROM with historical data. When we put it online the data was already 20 to 25 years old. It was nevertheless the most recent data that we had available, I don't remember the reason why we didn't have anything more recent. The PHP source is (or was) a CakePHP application, and honestly isn't that interesting. There was not more data in the PHP application than what is presented here.

EDIT: It was already a messy application when I got there, I cleaned it up as well as I could, but after I left it seems to have gone downhill again. Ah well. Not my problem anymore.

<comment><USER23> Thanks again -- interesting to learn about this space! I wasn't aware of WMO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This site has a technical overview of some of the models and algorithms used by the new FV3 system: [https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/fv3/](https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/fv3/)

</comment><comment><USER27> > _Working with other scientists, Lin developed a model to represent how > flowing air carries these substances. The new model divided the atmosphere > into cells or boxes and used computer code based on the laws of physics to > simulate how air and chemical substances move through each cell and around > the globe._

> _The model paid close attention to conserving energy, mass and momentum in > the atmosphere in each box. This precision resulted in dramatic improvements > in the accuracy and realism of the atmospheric chemistry._

Global Forecast System > Future [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Forecast_System#Future](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Forecast_System#Future)

</comment><comment><USER28> Wouldn't this kind of problem be a perfect match for machine learning? It would have a huge dataset to learn from. Why isn't it happening or what prevents AI tech from forecasting the weather?

<comment><USER29> It is because there is an understanding, from first principles, of the dynamics that drive weather (e.g. conservation of mass, momentum and energy). The current models are build upon these principles to make predictions, and conform to expectations of how physics operates. The method that these models are based on (finite volume) is efficient and adaptable if modifications need to be made.

Using AI and ML to make predictions about weather will likely not account for the conservation principles and might lead to ridiculous results (in some sense). Creating an accurate AI/ML model of a complex and chaotic system might lead to wrong predictions under extreme circumstances (e.g. predicting the weather >5 days out for an extreme hurricane) or under conditions where some implicit assumption has changed. One can at-least attempt to grapple with these issues when using finite volume. Under AI/ML you just have to hope your model is properly trained.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I like the cautious approach to this stuff

> The retiring version of the model will no longer be used in operations but > will continue to run in parallel through September 2019 to provide model > users with data access and additional time to compare performance.

</comment><comment><USER31> This is huge. Good work to the folks at NOAA and the American taxpayer for footing the bill.

<comment><USER32> I'm sure it wasn't the biggest part of our "bill". :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Man, that sidebar is one hell of an aggravating UI element.

</comment><comment><USER34> what kind of hardware is the GFS model run on?

</comment><comment><USER35> As far as I understand, these are still hand designed algorithms using a tiny fraction of possible weather data. Impressive for old school methods. Would be even more awesome to see how far ML could take the state of the art.

<comment><USER36> Weather data is a system where we have a really good understanding of the underlying physics but can't do enough computation to simulate them in a way that's detailed enough to make truly accurate predictions.

Machine learning is all about finding an unknown function that underlies known data. This is sort of the opposite issue: we know the underlying function but can't compute it.

That said, ML models are being applied to situations where the whether data doesn't translate directly into known physical quantities, like satellite images (see [https://developmentseed.org/projects/hurricane- intensity/](https://developmentseed.org/projects/hurricane-intensity/))

<comment><USER37> You can also use ML to learn a metamodel : a model trained on an accurate (but too costly to be run in real time) simulation.

<comment><USER38> Almost like super resolution techniques?

<comment><USER39> Pretty much. Maybe OpenAI will try to throw transformers at it.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How Sourcegraph Scales with the Language Server Protocol - <AUTHOR> https://text.sourcegraph.com/how-sourcegraph-scales-with-the-language-server-protocol-a4e8fd3fbae5 <comment><USER2> Sourcegraph CEO here. Thanks for posting this! And thanks to Microsoft, Codenvy, RedHat, etc., for their foundational work on LSP.

For the curious: we have links to more language server implementations at [http://langserver.org](http://langserver.org). And if you want to see what real LSP requests/responses look like, go to [https://sourcegraph.com/github.com/gorilla/websocket/-/blob/...](https://sourcegraph.com/github.com/gorilla/websocket/-/blob/compression.go) and hover/click on tokens with the JS console open.

Happy to answer any questions about LSP or our usage of it.</comment>


Ask HN: Can I ask about burnout? - <AUTHOR> How long were you running on burnout before you gave yourself recovery time? How do you recover from Burnout? How do you recognise you are in a state of burnout?
And, how long did it take you to recover?
I'm in this last question state at the moment being asked back to Work. It's been a month...I still don't feel i'm back to a functioning level but I was running on burnout for a year - I didn't give myself a break after final university year and went straight into work when I was already burnt out then(I know, I know, silly me!).
Thanks HN! <comment><USER3> Recovering from burnout for me (I've been hit twice - once when I got out of school, once more recently from a truly terrible work environment) takes about half a year of avoiding programming, but I have other issues (anxiety, depression) that come with the burnout. It's easy to tell now that it's happened twice - there's this pretty deep unwillingness to code coupled with a kind of fog that comes with reasoning about your programs that makes your work inferior to your 100%.

If your job is nasty like mine was, I know it's hard to start moving on but you have to switch. The longer you let yourself be burned out, the longer it takes to get back to 100%. I've made a certain set of choices that let me pursue a graduate degree and I feel much better, but you have to be on the lookout for abusive situations. For me, it's about 3 to 6 months of laying off of work. But really, extricating yourself from whatever situation is bothering you is what you want to do.

Avoiding burnout is pretty simple - be in an environment you like, surrounded by people whose company you enjoy, spending your spare time doing healthy things (exercise, going out, meditating, whatever works for you) that aren't related to work. Avoid indulging too much in vices like drinking, smoking, and drugs. Take breaks when you work, stand up, stretch, walk about. Sitting down for too long makes you stiff and feel stagnant. Take your vacation days when you feel worn out. Do what you can to make sure you're healthy and happy. If your employer feels threatened by you taking care of yourself, you find a new job.

Basically, work is a function of your competence, willingness, and emotional state. You do your best when all three of those are at max.

<comment><AUTHOR> "coupled with a kind of fog that comes with reasoning about your programs" \- could you elaborate on this at all?

I've noticed patterns changing in my coding. I can't believe it's only just properly dawned on it's burnout related.

Thankyou for your valuable input =)

<comment><USER3> Basically, you're overworked so you're not as focused. One little example I can remember was this - we were maintaining a less than impressive codebase under a lot of time pressure (bad management practices, such is life). There was a bug caused by me using two functions together that looked like a pair, but in fact the function to transform data was not idempotent, and the function to undo that transformation would sometimes mangle the data. I should have tested the code involved instead of just using it naively, but I wasn't in the mental state of mind to watch for such things.

Little things like that. Programming takes a lot of mental discipline, so you need to be at your best.

<comment><AUTHOR> This well explains why my code has been so above and beyond buggy the last few months I almost spend more time fixing bugs than actually coding! Thank you =)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the trick isn't so much in the down time (or the length of it)...it's in what you do with any free time.

Burnout is generally a result of getting stuck doing lots of stuff you don't want to the majority of your time...and generally very little of what you _do_ want to be doing...

So in my experience you only get over burnout by focusing and rediscovering what you were truly passionate about in the first place (or at the very least what you are insanely passionate about now).

Then, once you can figure out what excites you, start getting small wins in that direction however you can...and before you know it, you'll be full of energy and near impossible to stop again.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I realised this was very much how I got into a state of burnout in the first place - and I was staying in a role through guilt, not enjoyment.

I guess from your comments and my situation it should mean not returning to the role.

<comment><USER4> It's very rare that "going back" ever turns out well or as people hope (there are a few exceptions).

Keep in mind that you left for a reason...and the only thing you can really change is _you_...have you changed so much that _you_ are missing it? That _you_ can't move on without it?

My advice, as long as you have other reasonable options, take one of those paths instead...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've been burned out in the past and I'm going to to with what might sound like a cop out answer: It really varies. I think it depends on:

\- Your personality \- What you did with your off time \- What kind of job situation you're going back to

I do think the last point is probably the most relevant. Are you going back to the same situation as you were before? Then you're probably not going to feel like a month is a long enough time. To be honest there might not be a long enough time. You might need to find a new job. Especially with having run at burnout levels for a year or more. It was probably longer then you think.

I've had burnout twice in my career. Once I negotiated getting laid off, took the summer off (went to the beach a lot) and then started a much more low-key job after about 4 months of just relaxing and recharging.

More recently I was starting to burnout. I thankfully said something to my boss during my review and we had work taken off my plate. I'm lucky enough to have a great boss that understood that and was willing to do it. It's definitely helped curtail any sense of burnout.

</comment><comment><USER6> "I didn't give myself a break after final university year"

Ok...

Stop drinking, exercise, and have an activity out side of work (that isn't drinking or eating).

That outside activity is important. Take some classes, join a club/meetup group, go to church, find a hobby sport.

The trick to not burning out is to have other outlets, where you do things you enjoy. Your going to realize when work is getting "bad" because you skipping out on the outside activity (don't do this), or your looking forward to it so much your not working.

When this happens you know to "slow down" and plan some more personal time to balance things out take a weekend out of town, a vacation, change jobs etc.

</comment><comment><USER7> I recently read the BuronOut wikipedia page [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout) because I was having some thoughts about it myself. Burnout is a real problem in the software industry. With the exception of 2 months hiking leave (about five years ago), I never stopped working since after University (actually also during). I found that multiple short intensive vacations (long weekends 4-5 days), in times of stress, eases the tension a lot. It also depends how much support do you get at work (from you peers/manager, can you openly talk about it)? And how much support do you get at home from your immediate family. A few things to remember - once you got a new job it is ok to negotiate the start date. Buy yourself enough time to recover, knowing that you are going back to work, but not now. Depending on your negotiation skills, if you can't get the salary you wanted, try to trade it with vacation days (so you can take more long weekends). Some burnouts could take a few months to recover from. Take your time.... Looking back at your career 10 years from now, these few months are very short, and who knows - you might get more offers during that time... going to meetups, messaging friends for better job offers, asking them about the stress levels in the place they work.

</comment><comment><USER8> I burned out pretty good 6 years ago, I was able to work around two to three hours a day, it took me two years to get to six hours days and I have tried to keep it at that ever since.

I told my complete founder story on the rogue podcast recently [http://www.roguestartups.com/rs023-perseverance-with- anders-...](http://www.roguestartups.com/rs023-perseverance-with-anders- pedersen-of-timeblock/)

</comment><comment><USER9> I overworked for seven years. I took an entire year off. Time alone wasn't enough. I kept a lot of the same bad habits, I just wasn't working. What I failed to do was make conscious, positive actions to de-stress and fix my lifestyle (which led to the overwork) during that time.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your response :). Could I ask what those bad-habbits were that you became aware of? And what positive actions you took to destress? :)

<comment><USER9> Not observing a consistent and sensible sleep schedule.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm sooooo sorry for you. Here's a story and some advice.

My grandfather was born in a small village in Poland. He's younger brother died in infancy. His older brother was blown up to pieces during the war. My grandfather worked as a foreman in a steel mill. He also kept bees and animals. And he built his own house.

To this day, I have the shovel he used to dig the foundations himself. The handle got impregnated with his sweat and body oils. It looks as if someone put varnish on it.

Personally, I've been working since being legally able to (16) and only stopped for 1 year of Uni, then found a company I wanted to work with and made anything I was able to to get hired. I haven't had a break longer than 1 week since that day.

Burnout is only in your mind. Burnout means you never pushed yourself hard enough and that you never really wanted anything in your life hard enough.

My advice for you is: stop being sorry for yourself, take a cold shower, drink a coffee and get on with your life. You only get one, achieve something - <USER2> can behave burnt out when you're old.

<comment><USER3> Your advice is pretty off to be honest. I'm sure your grandfather was a wonderful man and I don't mean to belittle him by belittling your point, but what you're saying isn't helpful at all to OP. For example, I also got a job out of school, except mine was during the financial crisis at a company where I routinely was working 65-70 hours a week. My salary went to paying bills for my family, while I helped with my fathers foundering business because the economy was so terrible, and treatment for my mother who was having a breakdown caused by her having a serious debilitating illness. Eventually our house was foreclosed on. I remember packing all of our things into plastic trashbags the night that we were foreclosed on and waking up the next morning to go to work. I didn't have the luxury of stopping, even for an instant. We fought our way out, but it's not like I didn't come out of things unscathed. It's not as impressive as your grandfather and I certainly don't mean to compare myself to him, but everyone has a story to tell. You can't just wave one anecdote in someone's face to invalidate their experience.

It's a nice meme to say that burnout's all in the mind, but you don't know anything about OP, and you certainly don't know anything about the mass majority of people who've had to balance immensely stressful work situations with immensely stressful personal situations. Maybe you should be more measured in your words instead of being presumptuous about OP's drive or character.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks...in my case you're actually quite correct I think =). I was in foster care homes at various points. My drive and inspiration and the only reason I got to university. Because I wanted to be in a position to help my real family.

Like yourself I had family members who kept having breakdowns. I remember having taken my Mum into hospital after a suicide attempt and i'd go take an exam the next morning on only 2 hours sleep, desperate to still get the grades to get into uni.

 __ _Which is why this issue of burnout has gotten to me so much_.

How is it I can content with running on several hours of sleep for a few months whilst pushing myself to somehow do exams when I could barely read the questions I was so tired.. and not reach burnout...

And yet now, I have. It doesn't seem logical. But it seems I was at least focusing on something I was passionate about(goal to help my family in the future) and at work I have not been.

Low salary sometimes paid weeks late, not mentally stimulating...essentially going against the very thing I wanted to be able to do. Help my family. Your post has helped me to work that out, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> When I first got out of college in the mid-90s I was under a lot pressure from my family to find a job and get to work. Within a month I landed a great job working for a government contractor. I loved every minute of the job and the people I worked with, but after 3 years I wanted more. I also knew my skills were worth a lot more than they were paying me.

At this time the first "bubble" was beginning to grow rapidly and I was lucky enough to end up as one of the first employees at an application service provider (ASP), or what could be considered a precursor to the SaaS market today. It was a great job and the pace was fast as with any startup. We worked long hours and saw our work actually come to life as we built out global datacenters and brought on large customers. After 2 years though I wanted something different and more.

I wasn't burned out, but at this point my career acceleration had become my drug. I was always wanting more and was out to surpass my previous position. I didn't mind the long hours and would burn the candle from both ends while occasionally lighting a match in the middle as well. I got a job at Microsoft as a technical account manager for premier support.

I truly liked the job, but it was not the pace I had grown accustomed to over the past 7 years. It was in to work between 8 or 9 and home by 5:30 every day. On some days there would be a customer crisis that would wind into the night or a support issue that needed escalating, but it wasn't the same. It was then I started to lose interest. I don't think my body adjusted properly from going non-stop to a skidding halt.

This loss of interest caused me to burn out on technology. I thought at the time I had reached the pinnacle of career moves. I was working at Microsoft when the bubble burst and the startup scene dried up almost overnight. I grew to dislike the job, and even more the environment, within Microsoft. Yet at the same time, I didn't see other jobs as a stepping stone, I only saw them as falling backwards. I decided to quit and give it all up almost overnight.

I packed up, moved to Florida. I took a couple months off and thought I would get back into IT. I applied to a couple positions in Florida, but was in for the second big shock. Salaries in Florida were not even comparable to what I was making in the D.C. area. We were talking $20-30K differences. Granted the cost of living was much cheaper, but at the time I didn't want to look at it that way. I turned down great jobs because I was too stubborn to look at the big picture when it came to salary. Looking back though, I also think I was still burned out from IT work and was using salary as an excuse to get back in.

At this point I jumped ship. I went into a completely unrelated field (funeral industry), yet one that was non-stop 24x7 excitement for lack of a better word. I was instantly back to working long hours and loving every minute of it. Working a non-IT related job though made me miss technology. I started doing consulting on the side to fill the void and keep my feet wet. Yet I continued to work for almost 7 years at the new job. The longest I had stayed at any job up to this point.

I am back in IT to some degree now, but have learned a lot along the way. I learned that there is no real answer to how long it takes to "recover" from being burned out or how to recover. Every person is different, but one thing is definite, you can't force yourself back in when you are not ready. I also learned that every time I have those feelings of needing more or wanting more, I stop everything that second. It may be at completely random times. I will go for a long walk, listen to music, and appreciate life in general. I also got random jobs completely unrelated to IT. These jobs allowed me to see other people, learn new things, and completely detach from my IT self. But they also made me realize what I liked and disliked about working in IT. I now use that mental list to adjust my work/life balance so I can control my feelings of burnout.

I know I relate a lot of burnout to IT in the above, but it doesn't matter what your position or job is. Burnout can, and will, occur in any job. My best suggestion is to stop whatever you are doing for however long you can financially afford to do so. Find something different or do some soul searching by taking a vacation where you can detach from your normal everyday life. Do things outside your comfort zone. If you can't afford to not work, or if you are unsure about going back at any time, find a different job that is completely unrelated to what you were doing previously. At least for me, I think my burnout came from always wanting more from career. It didn't come from the job itself, but the push to get more from the job or have a better job.

<comment><USER12> I find your story interesting as it's the only one that relates burnout not to excessive hours and huge amounts of work piling up, but to the opposite, a too quiet work environment where everything is dealt with at a slow, steady pace, without great excitement. This is the exact situation I find myself in now, complete with the dislike for the job and the environment. Luckily I've just quit my job and looking forward to a a couple of months of holidays and, maybe, general rethinking of my career..

<comment><USER11> Yes, I found that my burnout is not directly related to the amount of work, but more so my interest in the work. When I begin to lose interest and/or focus in the work, I no longer relish going to work. This results in a "burnout" type effect for me and I need to get away from everything.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I hit my burnout point about 10 years into work. I had flunked out of college, so I was about 30. I was in banking, doing risk analysis. I had a manager who would give us arbitrary, ridiculously short deadlines, then expect us to work all hours to meet them. I was listening to suicide-y music. The breaking point was when I got my bonus; it was less than half of what I had been promised.

When I hit that burnout point, I took 2 weeks off and went to a remote place with no internet. I drank heavily the first couple of days (I think of it as a mental-reset). And then I started analyzing what made me burn out. I realized that for me it was a combination of two things: Time, and Talent. I was spending too much time at work, and I was working with supremely untalented people. I also realized that I had a good amount of experience under my belt, and that I was fairly desirable as an employee.

Armed with that knowledge I went back to work, and started saying "no". I also started interviewing (I'm not stupid).

> No, I'm not staying late tonight. No, I'm not staying late tomorrow night. > I've got arrangements. What am I doing? That's personal.

I wasn't anti-social. When the team did things I hung out with them and was friendly. I just didn't work late.

> No, I'm not going to work with him on that project. In the past he has > worked against me, even though I was the lead. I don't feel like the project > can be a success if he's involved, and I don't want to be on a doomed > project.

If any of my "no"s had been met with threats of being fired, I would have quit on the spot. I made it clear to my manager that I enjoyed what I was doing, but I had a handful of open offers at a higher rate. My manager backed down for a bit. We started a new project, it was done later than his demand, but before my estimate. And it was the most stable project we'd built. After that I never felt like he was judging me again.

Eventually I did move on, and at every job since then it's been about setting expectations on day one. I do not work evenings or weekends (unless it's something I'm genuinely excited about). I do not run errands for other people. I do not fix other people's bugs or document their code just because they think they're too important to (of course I work with other people's code, I'm just not their bug bitch).

It's been 9 years and I haven't felt burnout-y since. It didn't fix everything overnight, but actually enjoying my primary job helped the burnout feelings fade. I still get angry and frustrated, but they're usually short-term things that I can eventually work around or fix.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, I never even thought about the Talent thing...sometimes i've been working in an empty room on my own with no-one to bounce ideas off, which could happen for a week at a time. Lonely and not mentally stimulating.

I'd be an idiot to go back, Ive realised. I'm really glad to have worked this out now rather than later.

Thank you so much for sharing your story.</comment></comment>


Do we create the world just by looking at it? - <AUTHOR> http://seedmagazine.com/content/print/the_reality_tests/

<comment><USER2> This is the title of the article:

 _A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it?_

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the first paragraph:

 _To enter the somewhat formidable Neo-Renaissance building at Boltzmanngasse 3 in Vienna, you must pass through a small door sawed from the original cathedrallike entrance. When I first visited this past March, it was chilly and overcast in the late afternoon. Atop several tall stories of scaffolding there were two men who would hardly have been visible from the street were it not for their sunrise-orange jumpsuits. As I was about to pass through the nested entrance, I heard a sudden rush of wind and felt a mist of winter drizzle. I glanced up. The veiled workers were power-washing away the building's façade, down to the century-old brick underneath._

No, it doesn't get better from there.

The author's name is apparently Joshua Roebke. WTF, Joshua? Do all science reporters secretly desire to start their opuses with "It was a dark and stormy night", or is it just you? Tell me: do you have a novel stashed in your drawer looking for a publisher? I think you'd better work on making your articles say something, Joshua, because this one didn't actually say a fucking thing. At least that's what I got from a skim, because I couldn't endure reading all your prose in detail.

Oh, and Joshua, read up on the many-worlds interpretation of QM.

</comment><comment><USER3> When Werner Heisenberg was pulled over by the Munich police, he couldn't tell them how fast he was going, but he knew exactly where he was.

<comment><USER4> Someone should buy the staff of IQOQI an OQO.</comment></comment>


Do you think writing metrics would help writers? - <AUTHOR> https://www.authorea.com/users/8850/articles/150732-the-fitbit-of-research-writing <comment><USER2> It's an interesting idea. The problem I see, is applying these types of metrics to creative endeavors would lead down a path of quantity over quality.

I think it would be a useful tool for people who have trouble finding a 'creative groove' and need guidance. I think it could also be abused by people who oversee/hire creative people and want to track and micro manage.

It works for fitness, because in general more = better. When it comes to writing, especially non-technical or non-explanatory writing, brevity is king and where the beauty is found.

There's also danger in distraction. The writer could end up focusing more on trivial details of their process ("how many times have I used 'as such' THIS time?") instead of focusing on getting the main idea out and then revising and editing.</comment>


How I Cost the Government $499 Million - <AUTHOR> http://firehawkcreative.com/blog/how-i-cost-the-government-499-million I'm curious to hear what the development community thinks this project should have cost if built and managed properly? Is $1MM too high or too low? <comment><USER2> tl;dr

I am brilliant, and I could have done a way better job of building healthcare.gov for 0.2% of the cost. Unfortunately, I was too busy working on all my other awesome projects that have nothing to do with big government systems or the healthcare industry.</comment>


Show HN: Tiny-Swiper – 2kb alternative to SwiperJS with the same modern API - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/joe223/tiny-swiper <comment><USER2> Looks nice, lately I have just been using css scroll snapping, but I would imagine this has much better browser compatibility.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Just submit a github issue when you encounter any trouble. I'll fix it ASAP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If this is much smaller than the original library, does it exclude any features? or have different compatibility?

<comment><AUTHOR> It keeps the most important configuration and methods, does not include components. And, there is a quit bit different in interactive mode. Slides could be paused while touch-start, etc. The challenge for me is that I have to make a trade-off between package size and API richness. We will deviation from purpose if it is too large, it will be useless if lack of important APIs, either.(I'm trying to keep it to be smaller that 3kb, it's so hard ... )</comment></comment>


The Business of Storytelling in the Age of the Algorithm - <AUTHOR> https://lithub.com/rewriting-trauma-the-business-of-storytelling-in-the-age-of-the-algorithm/ <comment><USER2> Somewhat off-topic, but what is the lay definition of "algorithm" these days? From the articles I'm reading I think it's something different to (or at least much more specific than) the technical/CS definition.

People talking about algorithms in newspapers in the abstract are never worried about the class of things that includes ways to tell if a number is even, or which poker hand wins at the showdown. The term as they use it obviously includes recommender systems (maybe only in concrete implementation, though?), but I suspect it might also include navigation in Google Maps. It probably includes chess-playing "AI", but I don't think it includes methods to check that a chess move is legal.

<comment><USER3> The pop culture definition of algorithm is basically any process by which a computer makes a decision without human intervention.

<comment><USER4> I've seen guys in a poker room use it as a fancy way of saying their "decision making strategy".

<comment><USER5> That's an entirely valid use of the term. "Algorithm" comes from "al- Khwarizmi", a Persian mathematician from 700-800s. "Euclid's algorithm" is from 300 BC.

In its original conception, "algorithm" just referred to any series of steps one could follow mechanically to reach a solution to a problem. Delegating those mechanical steps to a computer (another word that used to refer to a person!) came much later.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Rape question baffles computer science students  - <AUTHOR> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/rape-question-baffles-computer-science-students-1.2517578 <comment><USER2> From [http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/memorial- university...](http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/memorial-university- student-union-seeking-apology-over-rape-204626731.html) here is the question:

 _Write and test a Prolog program that solves the following problem: Everybody needs love and understanding. People get their courage to live from loving and understanding. Understanding means listening and compassion. Rape victims have to gather their courage to live in order to stand on their dignity and to face future. Heather is a young rape victim. She would die if she could not stand on her dignity and no future. Unfortunately the persistent bullying online and calling her "slut" in her community show that nobody would listen her and there is no compassion towards her. A person willing to die causes the person's attempting suicide. Whether is Heather attempting a suicide?_

I wonder why the English is so bad? It's hard to tell if the teacher is really encouraging compassion, or just contriving a situation that translates easily into Prolog.

<comment><USER3> Certainly, the English is not bad - but there's nothing in that assignment text that should offend anyone. Except, of course, "political-correctness" and feminist extremists who want to see offensiveness everywhere they look at, so that they can attention-whore around.

And yes, I can't stand this kind of people. Seek for attention where the situation demands it, not just for your own personal gain.

<comment><USER4> One in six women in the US have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime (src: [https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf) ). Is it worth potentially inducing PTSD symptoms to use that subject matter in this question? I'd say no.

<comment><USER2> It's not just PTSD, but trivializing the act in a word problem. I'm not sure the teacher meant it in a trivial way though. It could have been an awareness campaign gone wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> In terms of social network infrastructure, recognizing whether your user is a rape victim, or any victim, and analyzing their communications to determine if they are being bullied is a valuable asset. Instagram displays an eating disorder help line if you search for "#ana," "#mia," or other eating disorder related hashtags. I once had Facebook delete all my messages from a certain person because they thought that person was bullying me - which they weren't. What baffles me is that this professor is being sent to "training" when their work is ultimately wanted out of social networks.

<comment><USER4> The question (src: [http://i.imgur.com/CwegI9i.png](http://i.imgur.com/CwegI9i.png) ) is a Prolog problem, which is just a bunch of logical premises that the system is supposed to find the conclusion for (kinda like A=>B, B=>C, therefore A=>C). The problem doesn't involve analyzing communications or predicting anything, and it would have little or no use when developing social network systems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Frankly, you can't have it both ways. Social networks are pressed to take more accountability for the activities of bad apples, and their first line of defense is to automate and monitor. The algorithms that do so are going to be complex and involve insight that I don't believe has much research behind it. So this is fairly cutting edge and worthwhile.

On the other hand, understanding how mainstream student and academia may react to a lightening-rod topic like rape is not the strong suit of a lot of computer scientists.

The professor needed to clearly communicate _why_ this was a worthwhile assignment. I'd bet he'd have gotten a completely different response.

<comment><USER7> > The algorithms that do so are going to be complex and involve insight that I > don't believe has much research behind it. So this is fairly cutting edge > and worthwhile.

Here's the assignment paper.

[https://i.imgur.com/yj7aaQA.png](https://i.imgur.com/yj7aaQA.png)

Pouring liquid between a 3 and 5 gallon jug to end up with 4 gallons shows the kind of level this assignment is aimed at.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This would actually have been a fun and interesting assignment to do, not to mention the potential application.

I'm sure the opposition would have been fine with it if it had been more "weasel-wordy", i.e. develop system to determine if cis-gendered anthropomorphic entity is likely to cause [TRIGGER WARNING] non-self-help.

</comment><comment><USER9> so their college stands for running away from hard problems because the are socially unpalatable.

<comment><USER10> I agree. Is the subject matter painful? Absolutely. But is this potentially life saving work? Also Absolutely.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Obviously this could be important work. Also, really obviously, you don't just dump a question involving rape and suicide into a minor quiz without any warning.

What level is CS3710 aimed at?

<comment><USER3> Why is this "warning" everywhere needed? If you can't read a simple text where the word "rape" is present, then get fucking medical/psychological help instead of going on everybody else's nerves by turning texts into unreadable walls of [TW XYZ] or omitting (potentially life-saving) research just because it involves "rape".

<comment><USER7> This isn't "potentially life saving research". It's a 25 point question on a quiz.

Edit: here's an image of the assignments to see whT level this is aimed at. The three and five litre jug question, and 7 day time frame, are clues that this in not "life saving research" but in fact a simple assignment in an intro level course.

[https://i.imgur.com/yj7aaQA.png](https://i.imgur.com/yj7aaQA.png)

<comment><USER3> So, are you implying that anything involving potentially "dangerous" stuff like rape, suicide, violence, drinking, war etc is to be reserved only for "serious" academic research and be left out of test questions?

Imagine a test question "To one liter of a water/alcohol mixture in 1:1 ratio half a liter of water is added. What is the new alcohol-to-water ratio?". A former alcohol addict might be "triggered" by this question - but would you exclude it from a test?

Or, in a history test, avoid asking questions about the Afghanistan war because the kid's father lost a leg in Afghanistan?

<comment><USER7> Suicide is one of the biggest causes of death, especially for men in that age range. Suicidality involves complex mental health. It is entirely possible for a person with suicidal thinking to be in treatment for that thinking but also continuing to study at university. Dropping references to suicide into minor assignments is a weird thing to do, especially if it's going to be framed with such odd choice of words.

Rape is similarly common and for some (but not all) victims is extremely distressing.

Can you understand why you don't just drop references to rape and suicide into a short assignment with no other context?

<comment><USER3> So what? You're exposed to these topics everytime you watch TV news, listen to any radio station with news reporting, read a newspaper (or the headlines while walking through the city), reading Wikipedia articles, books, basically taking part in life.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If I type suicide into google, google gives me a special infobox providing me information on how to seek help.

suicide.org tells me:

About 33% of rape victims have suicidal thought. About 13% of rape victims will attempt suicide.

I think these factoids provide abundant evidence the question is relevant to the world and industry these students will graduate into.

You can decide for yourself if feminism and political correctness in the universities are helping or harming academic education and research.

</comment><comment><USER12> And how about the first question on the quiz - which evokes a story about a man's father marrying his step-daughter?

Perhaps the last question was not written by the same person who wrote the preceding questions. It's totally nonsensical, although perhaps that's due to the bad writing combined with trying to make the question easier to parse into Prolog?

In any case, this is indeed a bizarre little quiz.

<comment><USER2> The first question is from an old silly song [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_My_Own_Grandpa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_My_Own_Grandpa)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I see nothing wrong with the question. I can't stand these people that get up in arms about every little thing that they can.

</comment><comment><USER14> student does not know how to complete assignment; so raises fuss with admin to avoid it.

<comment><USER7> The question has been posted in this thread. Use the language of your choice to solve the question asked.

Compare that to the other questions on the assignment - the two jugs problem for example.</comment></comment>


Get a Horse! America's Skepticism Toward the First Automobiles - <AUTHOR> https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2017/01/get-horse-americas-skepticism-toward-first-automobiles/ <comment><AUTHOR> Of particular interest is Winton's comments on patent sharing:

 _The steering wheel was one of my early patents, and it was the same wheel that came into later and general use. It is but one of more than a hundred patents I hold on different parts for automobiles.

I believe I am entitled to say I have never collected a cent in royalties from them, nor will I. Lawyers have tried to argue me into bringing suits for infringements, but it so happened we pioneers always worked together. We loaned ideas. We loaned tools. We loaned patents. If we worked out a good idea, we loaned that. You see, some 20 years ago there was a man named George Baldwin Selden, a lawyer and inventor living in Rochester, New York, who caused a lot of trouble and expense to the automobile industry by bringing suit against all of us for the infringement of a patent that had been granted him on May 8, 1879. His patent covered a machine containing the essential principles of an automobile._</comment>


Follow the journey of three beginners who are learning to code - <AUTHOR> http://www.codelearn.org/learn-ruby-on-rails

<comment><USER2> I'm happy to see them going ahead with this. Codelearn has some interesting technology under the hood and deserves a bit more recognition than it seems to have had so far. (Disclaimer: I've had a preview of their platform as I often write about Ruby/Rails stuff.)

Another thing to bear in mind is that this almost harks back to how the Rails community was in 2004-2006. A ton of people blogging about the things they'd learnt and found out. Then they became experts, Twitter was born, and not so many people blog "hey, I learnt this about Rails!" anymore.. :-)

<comment><USER3> Intriguing! What's the tech under the hood?

<comment><AUTHOR> Its Ruby on Rails itself :).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Neat idea! We'll be following along as we've found students do better with a bit more structure than this program provides, but there are so many ways of learning it may work well.

What I like most is the personal help. It promises not just a video but guidance to the _best_ video based on where the "noob" is located... that's awesome.

I would say that "passively by dropping comments to the blog" feels like a low bar (but maybe I'm reading too literally?). The response rates to questions must be prompt – the difference between getting an answer in 30 seconds and 10 minutes is huge for me, and I've been writing software for 15 years. It's only worse for beginners.

For our students at Thinkful (<http://www.thinkful.com/>) getting human contact promptly is key... our students only like banging their heads against the wall for so many minutes before getting demotivated!

<comment><USER4> > The response rates to questions must be prompt – the difference between > getting an answer in 30 seconds and 10 minutes is huge for me, and I've been > writing software for 15 years. It's only worse for beginners.

I think the there is a lot of learning involved when you are trying to figure out an answer. If things are answered very quickly they won't try at all and ask the person, even though the answer is very simple.

<comment><USER3> I agree in the principle you're after (independence beats dependent on someone else) but not the method.

Quick response rates help people feel not _alone_. And that's really really important because alone is too close to helpless is too close to powerless is too close to giving up.

To develop independence you need a good teacher. That's one who helps you understand _why_ the answer is the answer, rather than just gives you the answer. Teach a person to fish... basically.

<comment><USER5> I agree with this. When I was first learning to code I was ten, and my mentor would show me the solution, and I would go 'aaaah I get it now', and then he's ask me if I really understood it, which I would sometimes reply with 'not really, no'.

Copy paste compile, a terrible way to "learn".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm a touch sceptical here - while I appreciate a noobs perspective whenever I'm starting something new, I prefer to see something that encourages best practice - a mix of experience through the eyes of a noob would be better in my opinion.

<comment><USER3> Agreed. But note that it's not all "noobs" helping "noobs"... there's someone who knows chiming in with directional support along the way. That's a big difference.

Coursera tries "peer learning"... commonly referred to in the forums as "the blind leading the blind."

At Thinkful we definitely see a benefits from both peers and experts...

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm very comfortable using CakePHP. I've built many apps using knockout.js on top of it, extensively used jQuery and AJAX throughout and have used both MySQL and MongoDB to drive the data.

For someone like me who is confident in their abilities of another MVC framework, how much of a learning curve is involved transitioning over to ROR (or any other MVC for that matter)? Has anyone switched from say Django, CakePHP or MVC4 over to Rails, or vice versa?

<comment><USER8> I switched from Django to Cake to ROR. There isn't much difference structurally, as all of them are after all MVC architecture, but there are little subtle things which bring about the difference in feel and usability. Cake is heavily inspired from Rails but it doesn't focus much on command line as Rails does. For any common command you have which will add files, there is a command to in Rails to bring about that change and generate ALL THE RECOMMENDED files at once. These include test files, migrations, css, js, helpers etc. This makes life much much easier. Plus, ruby feels much pleasant when compared to PHP and thus, you won't regret switching to here. It'll take 2 days to be able to create a workable app. Although you'll find a new concept in Coffee script (Which is basically using ruby syntax for JavaScript), but you can easily switch back to JS if you want by removing the extension. Come over to the dark side, you'll love it.

<comment><USER7> I've been thinking about giving rails a chance. I'm in the middle of a project using Cake right now, so I think when I finish it I'll start checking out ROR.

> For any common command you have which will add files, there is a command to > in Rails to bring about that change and generate ALL THE RECOMMENDED files > at once

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but it sounds an awful lot like Cake's bake functionality.

For you ROR guys, here's a short tutorial on baking with CakePHP.

[http://www.jamesfairhurst.co.uk/posts/view/baking_with_cakep...](http://www.jamesfairhurst.co.uk/posts/view/baking_with_cakephp)

<comment><USER8> Yes, it's very close to Bake functionality, but has many more commands. For example, if I remember correctly, there are no migration files in Cake and you have to do the changes in database manually. Try the migration feature of Rails, you'll never go back again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Good idea, questionable execution:

* Should have had a female in the group

* The first guy isn't "learning to code", he's a programmer learning a new language/framework

<comment><USER10> Why does it matter if a female didn't end up being in it?

<comment><USER9> Seems obvious–having a female in the group might ease some anxiety/intimidation (which the community has caused) of other females who visit the site and want to follow their progress.

<comment><USER11> While I agree that it would have been nice, I don't think it was an oversight. In addition to the link posted on how they found people, it's also a bit of a double-edged sword as women are less likely to apply for these types of things. This is their very first attempt; it's experimental. I'm sure when they have more faith in their product/the training, they can spend more time trying to find people from varying backgrounds to highlight.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What a great idea; a lot less intimidating than doing it on your own or one- on-one. Interested in seeing how this plays out.

</comment><comment><USER12> I am excited to see how this go.Don't mean to pick side but I am rooting for the kid. I think he has a lot of potential.

</comment><comment><USER13> This is pretty interesting to me as the thought process while learning is often lost in other online tutorial/courses.

</comment><comment><USER14> Is `noob' considered acceptable terminology?

<comment><USER15> It used to be that "noob" was rude (referring to a new or incompetent person who is stupid and irritating) and "newb" was not (referring to a new person who should be treated kindly and helped along). Maybe the meanings are starting to blend together?

<comment><USER16> Maybe there was a time in your linguistic community when those words meant that. I suggest that this is not universal. I've seen lots of people in games use "newb" in a profanity-laden attack, and I've seen people people say things like "c'mon, don't grief the noobs, pick on someone your own size".

What's the difference between "geek" and "nerd"? Ask five language communities, get five different answers. Or ten answers, if you ask the same five language communities again two years later.

When you use slang in a new speech community, you need to expect that to your listener, it probably _doesn't mean what you think it means_ , especially in fine nuance like you're claiming exists between "newb" and "noob" (or "n00b" or "newbie" or "nooby" or "noobie" or ...)

<comment><USER15> Maybe not universal, but certainly very common.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie#Variants>

<comment><USER16> Uh. The relevant sentence of that WP article has, as its citation, a Forbes article about gamers. You take Forbes seriously, as an authority on gamer culture?

<comment><USER15> You were making it sound as though this were some niche thing that only happened in my particular social group. I was simply showing that this isn't the case. It's not as though there's likely to be peer-reviewed studies on this, but here's some more links, if you'd like:

[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Noobs%20vs.%2...](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Noobs%20vs.%20Newbs&defid=4307260)

<http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Noob>

<http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20060823>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Why are they learning an awful language like Ruby on Rails instead of an awesome language like Python?</comment>


You are batshit crazy - <AUTHOR> http://blog.nimblegecko.com/you-are-batshit-crazy/

<comment><USER2> Right, whoever knew about concentration, flow etc.</comment>


Stalking Your Friends with Facebook Messenger - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@arankhanna/stalking-your-friends-with-facebook-messenger-9da8820bd27d <comment><USER2> The location you share with your friend is dead accurate, not an area but the exact gps point in map. I did not realize I was sharing location when the feature was first announced -- told a friend I am just five minutes away from his house: he replied no you aren't -- found this feature and switched it off for good at that moment, it's intimidating.

<comment><USER3> Or maybe not lie?

<comment><USER4> Small lies like that are a huge part of everyday communications. No one should feel overly guilty about them and we need to be able to make them. They can be a kind of courtesy.

<comment><USER5> While I do agree with being able to make small lies, but why would you tell someone whose waiting for you that you are 5 minutes away if you are clearly not. Maybe it's just me, but when someone says 5 minutes, I don't expect 10, 15, or 30. I expect 5 minutes. This is especially true in Asian cultures.

<comment><USER6> One of the worst offenders is Brazil. When living there, it was common to hear "I'm on my way" (to an agreed meeting point at a specific time) but that could mean they actually are on their way or that they've just got up from the couch and will go take a shower, choose what to wear, maybe have a bite to eat and then think about transportation.

Knowing this, the trick was either to not take specific times seriously or to give a fake meeting time (earlier than the actual one) so the person gets there on time.

<comment> at-fates-hands When I was in college, my Native American roommate introduced to "native time" which is the same as you related it while you were in Brazil.

If he had no set time to meet, he'd say he would be there around "native o' clock" which meant he would be there at the time +/\- 30-45 minutes. If we agreed to a specific time, he would be there on time. It really helped me and I learned a lot about how Native American culture operated while we were roommates.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I find it hard to grasp why any intelligent individual who knows what goes on with Facebook would still voluntarily remain on Facebook.

"Ah but the social ostracization!", seemingly the main reason why otherwise intelligent, informed people do stay on Facebook, just doesn't hold up anymore, as too many cool, socially active 20-somethings I know or are acquainted with have moved off of Facebook, mostly in last 1-2 years. Even if you're stuck in a gossipy friend group that would "severely judge you" for leaving Facebook, which is more likely in your own head than in reality, then that's probably a sign you need to find more down to earth friends.

<comment><USER8> That's a rather harsh argument and we could (not trying to derail this) proceed and say the same thing about people that use Google products, Twitter, WhatsApp, 'the cloud' etc. - and in the end we'll finally agree with Stallman.

I don't have a Facebook account and have to admit that I never truly understood the benefit, the appeal. It seemed full of ads, games, random pictures and without structure - i.e. you might read about people ranting about the current soccer game (I hate that), but miss an important update from a close friend.

Plus, as soon as email isn't a suitable format to exchange information, I have the impression that the communication is either too broad (shout to the public) or trivial (one liners about nonsense). I don't get it.

I DO get the network effect though. So while I agree with you that the 'why' might be hard to grasp, I don't like the stab at people's intellect. It doesn't matter if an individual is intelligent or not - not using a service that all your peers decided on using is hard.

Your last line about being severely judged by friends especially doesn't sit well with me.

For one, people might not judge you - they just might communicate less with you, forget you at times (because you're the one person that needs a mail or a text message or whatever).

And then there's the ridiculous 'find different friends' part. Seriously…

<comment><USER9> > Plus, as soon as email isn't a suitable format to exchange information, I > have the impression that the communication is either too broad (shout to the > public) or trivial (one liners about nonsense). I don't get it.

What do you do when you want to organize a party/group trip to a concert/etc. and invite several people?

* Email and reply-all? This means you annoy people who can't make it (they keep seeing all the replies), and people who are added to the list have to be re-added several times as people reply-all to old messages and leave them out.

* Create a mailman list for this specific event and require people to unsubscribe/resubscribe? That's a lot of overhead, and the UI is awful.

* Set up a website/blog for this one event? Even more overhead.

And none of the above approaches have decent calendaring integration - you can attach a .ics to an email but it's still a very manual process.

<comment><USER10> Maybe someone should do a startup with a service like that. It could be called Meetup.com or something.

<comment><USER11> I've had 3 or 4 Meetup groups fold and migrate to Facebook, because Facebook offers basically the same features and some nice extras:

allows private/hidden groups (invite only; Meetup can hide the memberlist and require approval to join but the group existence is still searchable)

free (Meetup currently charges ~$70 for 6 months; source: I'm an organizer for a Meetup group and that's our semi-annual bill. I'm not sure if the scale slides based on membership numbers. I can't find the billing email for the exact number at the moment.)

While I do like Meetup and still use it, using Facebook for small group organization also makes sense.

<comment><USER12> maybe, but just maybe, paying cash is better than paying with every information available on your phone.

<comment><USER11> Phone? I didn't mention a phone; both Facebook and Meetup are entirely usable via their websites.

We have about 40-50 active and semi-active members (on Meetup), hold a fundraiser, and yet the organizers still have to chip in to make up the inevitable shortfall.

Whether or not to use Facebook (or Meetup for that matter) is something everybody gets to decide for themselves and preaching about what they should do is silly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > the message locations have more than 5 decimal places of precision, making > it possible to pinpoint the sender's location to less than a meter.

Precision is not the same as accuracy. Although the reported values may have 5 decimal places of precision, I find my location is often a bit off.

<comment><USER14> Indeed. ~2m is the limit of accuracy for a typical smartphone GPS - I've gotten down to 1.3m when standing in an open area for >10 minutes with 12 satellites in view, but that's an exceptional case.

In practice, accuracy will be in the 5-10m range.

It doesn't make it any less creepy though... which then begs the question of how the number of people wanting to send their location would change with how "approximate" of a location (i.e. rounding to some radius) they're sending. Nearest 100m? 500m? 10km? 100km? State? Country? Continent? ... _Planet_? I would probably be fine with the last one, but no more than that for anyone I don't know well.

<comment><USER15> My phone – which combines GPS with GLONASS – usually gets about 40m accuracy with just GPS, but with combined GPS and GLONASS I have about 24 satellites in view, even in buildings, getting better than 1m precision.

<comment><USER16> In fact, the vast majority of modern smartphones support GLONASS.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_GLONASS_navigation)

<comment><USER15> It makes sense, north of 50°N GPS accuracy goes quickly down, as most of its satellites' orbits are optimized for coverage over the equator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I use this facebook app now: [http://i.imgur.com/Iyd43n6.png](http://i.imgur.com/Iyd43n6.png) (Android)

It's either a well written FB app, or a no-permissions jail around Facebook's own hybrid-app/mobile-site. GPS no longer turns on, and messaging works for me.

<comment><USER18> I've found that just running Facebook's mobile site in Chrome works pretty well for most purposes.

<comment><USER19> I've been doing that since I found out they were requiring access to text messages. One year later and I have zero regrets.

<comment><USER18> It's ridiculous how many completely irrelevant permissions they demand!

Facebook's laundry list of permissions is perhaps the best example of how Android's permission system is completely broken.

<comment><USER20> I think Android's permission system works great. I saw Facebook's list of required permissions, considered whether these functions were necessary to provide the service I needed and whether I trusted Facebook to manage them for me, then declined to install the app.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm not sure what value add this serves as an opt-out solution rather than opt-in. For people who have a strong desire to show their location, sure. But what possible reason could Facebook have to make this readily accessible to anyone you chat with on an opt-out only basis?

<comment><USER22> "where are you?" "when will you show up?" "you back home yet?"

A lot of these things are questions I routinely get/ask in things like messenger. People with location on usually help us to coordinate things and the like.

<comment><USER23> Google Hangouts solves this problem in a much more sane way -- Whenever my girlfriend sends me "where are you?" on hangouts, the application prompts me to send a map pin.

This solution probably isn't particularly novel, but it's probably better than carte blanche location access, in the opinion of most people.

<comment><USER24> Google also provides opt-in location tracking via Google+ [0]. You specify who can view your location, and whether it is fine (GPS coordinates) or course (city-level).

My wife and I use this service and find it quite useful - it seems like a much more sane way to handle location sharing than to simply attach your exact location to every message you send by default.

Sadly, since it's buried in Google+, most people are probably unaware of it.

[0] [https://support.google.com/plus/answer/2998354?hl=en](https://support.google.com/plus/answer/2998354?hl=en)

<comment><USER25> Yeah, this was supposed to be the replacement for Latitude right? You have to know exactly where it is in the app though to find it, it's really not very discoverable

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is really, really bad for people in abusive relationships.

<comment><USER27> Being in an abusive relationship is bad for people.

<comment><USER28> Is my relationship with Facebook an abusive relationship? Only tongue-in- cheek.

<comment><USER29> Yes, it is. Maybe not physically abusive, but definitely emotionally and trust-ly abusive.

You think you are in a relationship with facebook, but facebook is secretly also in a relationship with all kinds of three letter agencies, state actors and advertisers - and tells them everything you told facebook.

<comment><USER30> If you know it and can prove it, it's not a secret. Advertisers definitely not secretly, you can easily see what information advertisers see at facebook.com/ads

Facebook only knows what you are telling it, maybe don't announce your next bank robbery on your status update and you'll be alright

<comment><USER31> > Facebook only knows what you are telling it, maybe don't announce your next > bank robbery on your status update and you'll be alright

Right, because only criminals have something to hide. Maybe it's my generation, but I don't automatically trust Facebook (or the government for that matter, hello IRS) with the safety and security of my personal information. There are plenty of bad actors out there who can take my perfectly innocent movements and information and either ruin my life for the hell of it, or steal my identity and profit from it.

<comment><USER30> That was my point made with an exaggerated example. If you don't want Facebook knowing where you work, where you went to school, etc - Don't give Facebook that information.

If that means you don't want to give Facebook anything at all, you're allowed to do that too. Don't register an account, block their domains with your hosts file, block their networks with your firewall.

<comment><USER31> I think it was a hostile way to make your point, that's what I was calling out. You basically said "if you have something to hide, you're a criminal". There are better ways to get your point across.

<comment><USER30> Fair comment, I'll take that on board when making future points

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Hopefully Facebook doesn't treat you differently based on this article. Good luck with your internship!

<comment><USER33> I'd say he is an awesome hire! Interested and able, also with seemingly a good understand of privacy and social location data. Handling GEO data for individuals is very very tricky.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> iPhones have something very similar enabled by default as well: [http://www.zdnet.com/article/four-privacy-settings-you- shoul...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/four-privacy-settings-you-should- enable-in-ios-7-immediately/)

</comment><comment><USER35> The joy of mobile apps, pulling as much permissions as possible during install, and abusing of them whenever you run them. When I see this the debate between native apps and web apps is over, and it does not end with native apps winning.

<comment><USER36> the joy of Android Mobile apps. I dislike Apple for many reasons, but the permission model on iOS is a lot saner than on Android.

<comment><USER37> You still end up giving away your privacy just the same. I'm not sure how that's different.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> A minor nit-pick, most GPS chips will happily give out a position as a best- effort.

The actual accuracy of the measurement is given by the dilution of position (DOP), which does not appear to be in the data shown in the blog post.

This would undermine their ability to pin-point their location to within a meter, as the DOP could be very high; especially in areas with lots of tall buildings or other problematic environments.

From the comparisons, it looks like the author's GPS is getting a very low DOP (i.e. a good, clean signal from a constellation of >= 5 GPS satellites).

Either way -- still glad I don't use FaceBook, and an interesting find!

<comment><USER39> The app does not only uses GPS, it uses an underlying framework that gather position from GPS and other sources like Wifi location databases, which are much more precise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Nice extension. I did a similar project to plot conversations on Google Earth when I realized how much location information was available: [https://github.com/maxmouchet/messenger-to- earth](https://github.com/maxmouchet/messenger-to-earth)

</comment><comment><USER41> You can also see if your friends are currently active using their browser, mobile device, or are inactive. These data could be used to infer usage rates over time. It might not sound that intrusive, but the tone is very different if you were to graph these same data per friend over, e.g., a month.

</comment><comment><USER12> Get your loved ones off Facebook from Salim Virani [http://saintsal.com/facebook/](http://saintsal.com/facebook/)

"I've been a big Facebook supporter - one of the first users in my social group who championed what a great way it was to stay in touch, way back in 2006. I got my mum and brothers on it, and around 20 other people. I've even taught Facebook marketing in one of the UK's biggest tech education projects, Digital Business Academy. I'm a techie and a marketer -- so I can see the implications -- and until now, they hadn't worried me. I've been pretty dismissive towards people who hesitate with privacy concerns. [...] With this latest privacy change on January 30th, I'm scared."

</comment><comment><USER42> Feature request: auto-click-on every conversation you've had in messenger when you navigate to /messages so you don't need to do it manually. Considering it doesn't persist past a reload...

<comment><USER43> There's a setting in Messenger to disable it for all chats. And on iOS, just disable location services for Messenger.

<comment><USER42> I don't think you understand my comment. I don't want to disable it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Hmm, where do you see this? I don't use Messenger, but many of my friends do, and I've never seen this. Is it only for Messenger-to-Messenger chats?

<comment><USER45> I couldn't get a screenshot with the map popped-up, but if you go to "see all" on the web, you can get a full-screen view with these little location pins. Hovering over them gives you a map.

[http://imgur.com/vloxbkI](http://imgur.com/vloxbkI)

<comment><USER44> Ah, thank you, these weren't in the small chat windows. Clicking on them gives you a full, browsable map, as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Refused to install messenger from the start. Facebook is a sketchy company (in my opinion) & I'm fast starting to think the same of Google.

</comment><comment><USER47> You cannot only detect with 90% accuracy where they are but also with 90% accuracy that they're running Android.

</comment><comment><USER48> intimidating..told a few friends about their locations and got unfriended. It explains how much people are scared about their daily privacy information.

<comment><USER49> If they "unfriended" you for that they weren't really friends anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> You are the product.

<comment><USER51> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude)

<comment><USER37> A platitude is meaningless. GP is actually a true statement about using FaceBook.

<comment><USER37> You don't have to agree with it. It's a commonly part of the dictionary definition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> And then you remember where Facebook's initial funding sources came from....

<comment><USER53> Which funding do you mean? They seem to be quite normal, open companies and people with interest in these kind of startups. For people interested in this [1].

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Facebook#Initial_fun...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Facebook#Initial_funding)

<comment><USER6> I believe rand334 is referring to the video below, regarding US government connections.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGdWsxHJlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGdWsxHJlM)

<comment><USER53> Those connections show a blurring of the lines between government and corporations, which we all know exist, but don't really seem to indicate an actual active connection currently exists (on that level).

It seems to be taking the radical conservative viewpoint of Thiel as granted, while those are at best part of his viewpoint. Also Thiel is supposed to be part of the board of a radical group, but the text was hard to hear (Vanguard VAC) is what I could come up with), while I could find no such connection on the internet.

In-Q-Tel itself has a lot of controversy, but again, controversy doesn't imply any truth. There have been In-Q-Tel companies that have worked perfectly fine and we don't see as anything bad, for example Keyhole.

The channel itself also doesn't breathe neutrality to me, though that doesn't mean I'd take their claims for not true, it does indicate some more research from them would have been nice. It seems to be more based on loose connections instead of proven active collaborations.

<comment><USER52> What exactly do you think is good, okay, or normal about In-Q-Tel, the CIA's VC firm, having connections to the world's most popular social network... blows my mind.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Israeli startups raise a record $1.7B in last quarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.newsweek.com/israeli-start-ups-raise-record-17-billion-last-quarter-480377 <comment><USER2> This record fundraising contrasts quite a bit with this: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12066571](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12066571)</comment>


$8 million iPhone: The ultimate geek chic - <AUTHOR> http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/1015/8-million-iPhone-The-ultimate-geek-chic

<comment><USER2> There's a lot of talk about wealth inequality these days but when the stuff that ordinary people can just go buy at the mall is so awesome that the only thing rich people can think of to do to improve it is to glue diamonds all over it, this says something good about the way things are going.

</comment><comment><USER3> Do people actually buy these or similarly upperclassed phones?</comment>


Remembering Gerv Markham - <AUTHOR> http://benjaminkerensa.com/2018/07/28/remembering-gerv-markham <comment><USER2> WTF? That's really sad. I worked with him (and others in the Bugzilla community) when I was a contributor for a short time. I hope he went peacefully, and I wish all the best for those he left behind.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, he left us far too soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> He was only 40 years old.

Personal blog: [https://www.gerv.net/aboutme.html](https://www.gerv.net/aboutme.html)</comment>


Let's go to Cyprus and promote Bitcoin - <AUTHOR>

Cyprus is in chaos, and may be forced to exit the Euro on Monday.  It's time that governments stopped messing around with currencies and peoples savings and investments.  The banks have shut down and businesses are not accepting credit cards for worries of not getting paid.
Why don't a group of us hackers go there and launch a Bitcoin currency to let people start trading again, and rebuilding their livelihoods.
Currency by the people, for the people. <comment><USER2> I suggest you apply some lean principles here and first figure out if the problem you perceive in fact exists and whether or not people are actually desperately looking for alternative solutions.

Your current thinking seems to go a bit long the lines of: There must be a huge demand for shoes in Africa since so many people over there walk around barefoot.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good suggestion. Hypothesis on problem is that people have a problem transacting with each other, due to shortage of cash, and thus businesses are losing out on revenue - thus a trusted means of exchange would see adoption. Tricky thing is that it's a volatile situation, this might be true this week but all will depend on what resolution the politicians come to on Monday. I'm not sure how to operate lean in a highly volatile situation like this... any thoughts?

<comment><USER3> Perhaps lean doesn't always work especially in situations where people's lives are at stake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Need to help migrate to a [http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/tag/point- of-sale-pos...](http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/tag/point-of-sale-pos/) that easily allows for QR code reading/btc sending of addresses

Also - how does one deal with the "pending" status when buying small things like coffee/sandwiches/lunch - Should a shell company exists to have faster verification?

</comment><comment><USER5> This is a very interesting potential experiment, and I would love to see this.

Is there any way to track adoption of Bitcoin? I would wager that it's more popular inside a financial crisis (like gold hoarding). Does the anonymous nature of Bitcoin prevent data like this? Maybe you could index it via: how many businesses accept bitcoin.

Edit: If the economy was bad enough you could set up a bunch of machines to mine bitcoin and wield quite a bit of coinage.

<comment><AUTHOR> There would be several ways to index it: 1\. People buying (or selling) bitcoins (through money in-out flows on exchanges, perhaps creating a local exchange) 2\. Businesses which accept them 3\. Downloads of apps or other tools which let people transact with each other

<comment><USER5> I thought that there was no way to track how many people buy bitcoins. Would this exclusively be through a public market, then, or is bitcoin less anonymous than I thought?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Well a couple of stumbling blocks come to mind here.

What is a "Bitcoin currency" is the largest:) I have no idea what this even means and it's not explained.

Cyprus GDP is about 24 Billion. Say you'd need even 1% of that as actual currency, that's 214 Million in bitcoins that you'd need, and I think i'm really understating the amount you'd need.

<comment><AUTHOR> By 'bitcoin currency' I meant launch bitcoin infrastructure locally, carry out publicity and educate people about bitcoin to make it easier for local people to use. Would also need to do things like translate into local language, and probably build specific tools to make the currency work locally. It would be a unique opportunity to really engage with people, and understand their currency needs as users. I think there would be quite a lot of infrastructure to build to get a working ecosystem going.

The point about volume of currency is significant... though any break from the Euro will likely collapse that value significantly... any ideas for how to hack that?

<comment><USER7> _It would be a unique opportunity to really engage with people, and understand their currency needs as users._

A digital currency isn't going to meet their needs. Have you ever been to Cyprus? Except for transactions between multinational branches/subsidiaries located on the island, most of the economy runs on cold, hard cash. A lot of stores and restaurants don't have the capital to invest in the technology they'd need to use bitcoin for POS.

<comment><AUTHOR> Haven't been to Cyprus, but all they need to use Bitcoin is a smartphone which costs a few hundred dollars. I presume 3G coverage is decent? If small businesses aren't taking credit cards anymore then the loss of revenue would pay for an Android device in a few days.

<comment><USER7> Cyprus _is not America_ and it definitely is not like Silicon Valley. The use of credit cards is a uniquely American phenomenom; European businesses and especially Eastern European businesses prefer debit cards--to the extent they even accept cards at all.

Moreover, a few hundred dollars is a very, very big number in Cyprus (and indeed, most of the world), and was definitely beyond the reach of almost all of the small businesses--let alone consumers-- _even before the recession._ There simply isn't any financial justification for wasting a few hundred dollars on equipment you'll only use once or twice a year--if that.

Bitcoin--and most digital payment services--simply aren't relevant to Cyprus' economy and will not be the vehicles that get it out of the recession.

<comment><USER8> "a few hundred dollars is a very, very big number in Cyprus"

Cyprus is not a) eastern anything (including european) b) outside the european union c) a third world country

A few hundred dollars is not far off a few hundred Euros, the currency of Cyprus.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The main problem I see, is the uncertainty around when the banks will open again so that people could actually exchange their money for Bitcoins.

You will also have to contend with limits that they placed on the amount of cash you can withdraw.

[http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-21/bad-news-atm- limits...](http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-21/bad-news-atm-limits- imposed-good-news-they-still-have-cash)

I think a better idea is to go to countries that have not yet gotten to the point of Cyprus, such as Spain, Ireland, and Portugal

</comment><comment><USER10> Bitcoin as a currency is way to unstable to be used in real transactions at the moment. The price rose from 14 bucks to 60 recently, this means, that if you bought something when bitcoin was 14 bucks and want to sell it now with bitcoins you will lose 1/4 of transaction. The bitcoin is nice idea to toy around with, but not the currency for real things.

</comment><comment><USER11> The bitcoin currency has a hard limit of 21 million units ever being produced.

Right now, a bitcoin is worth ~73$. At the current market rate, the entire possible bitcoin market is worth $1.533bn. On the other hand, Cyprus GDP is $24 billion. So... you see where things start to fall apart...

<comment><USER12> you do realize those 21 million units can be divided indefinitely. There is currently a soft limit imposed on the size of fractional units - but unlike the total, it can be changed quite easily.

So just because there are 21 million units ahead of the decimal, doesn't mean there can't be an additional 100 million units within each of those 21 million. Computers don't particularly care what exponent the floating point is multiplied by.

<comment><USER13> The reference bitcoin client is actually implemented with 64-bit integers, with a bitcoin defined as starting 8 decimal places to the left. But your point stands, which is that bitcoins are highly divisible. In fact, a "satoshi" is the unit name for one hundredth-millionth of a bitcoin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Lets think about how this could work. Houses at this time of year will be cheap, so we can get a few apartments. We would want to engage with local media to get the word out, and work to make sure locals have the tools and infrastructure they need (eg language translation) to make this work.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm confused by the OP's use of the word "Bitcoin currency". Did you mean to say "Bitcoin exchange between EUR and BTC"? I suspect the peeps in Cyprus are def dumping some cash into BTC already. So they probs already know about that currency.

</comment><comment><USER8> The Russians have already got there first. Did you see the jump in Dollar value since the Cyprus Crisis began?</comment>