Ask HN:How many of you nerds "read" wikipedia? - <AUTHOR>

It is my understanding that reading the encyclopaedia cover to cover is a long standing tradition in the nerd culture. These days the hardbound 22 volume encyclopaedia has become somewhat obsolete.Wikipedia is the wave of the future.<p>So how many of you read, I mean actually "read" wikipedia? As in just open the website and just start reading. I have been doing it for quite some time.(I started with superheroes and still reading about them, I knew there was a lot to know but didn't know there was this much. I usually skip things which don't really interest me in the title but even then its a long long read.) <comment><USER2> I do this quite a bit, but unlike with a paper encyclopedia, it leads to exponential explosion of my "TO-READ" stack, as I keep middle-click-opening new tabs throughout the process of reading an article. Often I then eventually get to one of the tabs and have no idea what it is or how I got to an article on such a bizarre subject. Eventually I have to give up and close 40 unread tabs.

edit: <http://xkcd.com/214/>

<comment><USER3> Using a tab grouping plugin could help you. Recently I have installed tab kit (which groups tabs and show them in vertical layout) and it made browsing much easier - it automatically puts new opened tabs in correct groups so I know where each tab came from; also it shows unread tabs and allows you to regroup them and fold a group.

If you are a FF user I would strongly recommend you this plugin (Tab Kit). However it seems that it doesn't work with new firefox versions; but there is another called Tree Style Tab with similar features.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's pretty rare that I head over to Wikipedia so I can read any random article, but I'll use it to satisfy the mildest curiosity about nearly any noun I interact with. For instance, I used BART for the first time on Thursday, and now I kind of want to know all about it. So off to Wikipedia.

</comment><comment><USER5> My girlfriend is amazed that I have the patience to read a 10-page wikipedia article from start to finish. I think I got that because I started reading newspaper articles when I was very young (strongly recommended to all parents).

It seems I'm a bit different than most other people here that I open and read new tabs as they come up, rather than opening them in the background and coming back to them (like a call stack instead of a queue), which helps for maintaining context. The articles that I tend to get large stacks on are math articles. I think my stack-based approach came from starting on math articles, because you need to understand underlying referenced concepts before you can continue with the rest of the article. Most other subjects aren't so linear, not even historical subjects, because an individual tends to participate in several events, an an event impacts several individuals, and you get all sorts of back- and forward-references.

On a related note, I have read references books cover-to-cover, including a selective dictionary (one that only includes difficult words, not "the" and "door"). Textbooks with excercizes are far better for retention, but I always stop instead of doing the excercizes.

</comment><comment><USER6> For awhile I had a bookmarklet as my homepage which would load a random page. Then it brought up a VERY inappropriate page (some weird Japanese fetish article) in front of inappropriate people.

Since then, no more random Wikipedia for me.

<comment><AUTHOR> Can I have the link of the bookmarklet. And for the record I didn't ask for it for the fetish article.

<comment><USER7> Unfortunately the weird Japanese fetish was a sexual attraction to having bookmarklets that open random pages on Wikipedia.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Studying Wikipedia is the best way to get up to speed on a subject quickly. It lacks scholarly depth but

It was simply assumed on my high school quiz bowl team that one read Wikipedia in his spare time. I've got around ten tabs open while I crash through data structures. Will it give the same depth as Knuth? Nope. But it dos give me a 80% understanding for 20% effort.

<comment><USER9> _But it dos give me a 80% understanding for 20% effort._

That's the sort of knowledge that's most valuable for the average person to have nowadays. Enough knowledge to know what questions to be asking and what queries to be making, not necessary enough to answer every question accurately!

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I read <http://rosettacode.org/> from time to time, to get a feel for the various programming languages.

</comment><comment><USER11> my colleague reads math entries in wikipedia at least 4 hours a day. obscure optimization and nonlinear fitting methods.

it blows my mind. in the last 6 months he has learned a TON of material and I am very envious of the knowledge he's gained.

i want to learn what he has learned, and more importantly i want to WANT to pore over wikipedia math articles and try out the techniques, but its just not in me.

i learn when i have to and i force myself to. he does it because its fun. he'd do it even if it didn't help him or have any application to his work (frequently it doesn't). reading, testing, confirming new algorithms is his "guilty pleasure" in the same way some people can't stop playing starcraft.

kind of awesome really.

</comment><comment><USER12> <http://reddit.com/r/wikipedia> is my nighttime reading

</comment><comment><USER13> I start with one tab and continue with only one tab. Going previous page is permitted but openning a new tab is not. For instance yesterday I started with google's wikipedia entry and spend approximately 2 hours. Now i know who wrote lex

</comment><comment><USER14> I read Wikipedia. I follow links as I please. I sometimes visit the main page for the featured article or the "Do you know?" or the news articles. Now I am also a Wikipedia editor (as of April 2010).

</comment><comment><USER15> I do. Honestly, how many of us don't? I use it to get a starting place on learning about anything I don't already know and sometimes as a place to look for sources of more information.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is not what I was talking about. This is retrieving information on wiki, I talking about reading just for the sake of its aesthetic value

<comment><USER15> I'm not sure what you mean by "aesthetic value"?

What I do is to wander it somewhat randomly in search of information, only to click on anything that looks interesting, often reading things far in excess of my original query. Heck, I just closed a couple of Wikipedia tabs a few seconds ago.

But my goals are information seeking and have nothing to do with aesthetics.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I was doing this earlier today -- pulled up some article on the French Directory and went through maybe 15 related pages.

</comment><comment><USER17> I've read many articles, but don't do it for the sake of reading. It usually accompanies other reading on said subject.

</comment><comment><USER18> When I move, I am downgrading my internet connection at home because I spend too much time reading wikipedia.

</comment><comment><USER19> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd>

</comment><comment><USER20> All of us.

</comment><comment><USER21> This thread prompted me to subscribe to the Daily article mailing list. I'll give it a try for 30 days. I like getting information by e-mail because it lets me read it on my phone (oldschool Blackberry 8510c, $25 shipped via eBay) when I don't have access to a computer.

<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/daily-article-l></comment>


Ask HN: I'm a 17-year-old with $700. What's the best laptop for me to get? - <AUTHOR> After a freelance project I'm left with $700. My laptop broke weeks ago and I'm borrowing a friend's. What would be the most cost-efficient laptop for a developer to buy? I know absolutely nothing about hardware. I don't play games or anything; I just need it to (a) be portable, (b) be powerful enough for a web developer, and (c) have a long battery life.<p>I'm also getting into Linux and plan to install a distro on the new laptop;  feel free to suggest a particular setup X to go with laptop Y.<p>(I only mention I'm 17 to show that I don't work full-time; I'm still in school; I have few living costs; etc.) <comment><USER2> None at all. Save the $700. You don't need to spend it now unless it's literally on fire and burning your hands. Learn to save. You'll be glad you have money piled up when you leave the family nest. It's a tough world.

Have an old desktop? Use it. "Portable" and "development" are contradictory terms anyway. No desktop? Find a cheap/used/refurb one, $200 tops. Web development has one of the smallest demand on CPU power; you'll be just fine with an old desktop, you'll learn how to manage computing resources efficiently, and that will make you better at your trade. You're just 17... you have decades of learning ahead of you. Learn to drive the family car properly before you allow yourself to crave for a race car.

Unless you just want a shiny toy to look cool at Starbucks, and don't care if it's a worthless piece of junk in a year or two. In which case, yeah, Apple.

ObDisclaimer: Been there a very long time ago.

</comment><comment><USER3> I would suggest the following:

4GB of Ram i7 or i5 SSD

Something like this:

x220: [http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...](http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=445&Code=4290XB7)

or x230: [http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/...](http://outlet.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/outlet_us/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=445&Code=R9TBNWW-2306CTR)

Might fit the bill.

The nice thing about the x220 is that it is what a lot of Linux Kernel hackers use so the hardware tends to be well supported. Get an intel wifi card and intel graphics card. I have personally avoided Optimus technology for fear of lack of support, however, others have had luck with it so it might not be too bad.

Do you have any preference for screen real estate?

<comment><USER4> Seconded on Lenovo - I've never had a bad experience with them. A cheaper alternative to the x220/x230 is the X131e; It has a less powerful ULV i3 processor, but I find the performance perfectly adequate for web development once upgraded with an SSD.

Ebay is usually full of lightly-used Thinkpads and you can find some real bargains.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Scrounge up an extra hundred bucks somehow, somewhere and pick up an 11" MacBook Air at Best Buy this weekend: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason- gilbert/macbook-air-sale...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason- gilbert/macbook-air-sale-best-buy_b_2551623.html)

</comment><comment><USER6> Save up more money and buy a Macbook Pro. The cheapest model will do. You can probably get it from Amazon cheaper even with Tax and Shipping.

If you are getting into Linux, get a Mac since it is essentially a type of Linux. As a full stack mobile/web developer, it is nice to set everything up on your mac pretty much exactly the same way as you would in your Linux production environment. You don't need to worry about some packages you use may behaves a little different in Windows or Linux. You can run virtualization on PC, but why run virtualization when it will just work directly when you open up the OS X terminal.

To be fair. I have not always been a Mac user. I started programming when I was 16. Got my bachelor's degree in Computer Science and started to work as a software developer. I have always used a PC for 10+ years. However, it just became a pain to match your PC to your production environment which is pretty much a Linux box these days. A lot of times, in order to build something scalable, I end up trying new technologies and compiling the package from source. It is nice to set up your dev environment on a 'linux-ish' box (aka OS X) while your target production is also Linux. And if you want to do iOS dev, then you will definitely need a Mac as well to make your life much easier.

<comment><USER7> OS X is based on Darwin, not Linux. It's a UNIX environment, not Linux.

I would disrecommend Mac, because he'd be buying an overpriced piece of junk.

<comment><USER6> Lol. I was debating whether to spell it out because I got a feeling someone is going to pop up saying what you just said. Well. more precisely it was derived from BSD.

And that is some strong feeling you just expressed there. Why so much hate? :) Overpriced or not is based on what it can do for you and how much your time is worth. Of course, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.

By the way kido, don't just take our advices here. On the Internet, you have no ideas who is behind the typed message. See if you can find someone in your life who is successful in the field and you admire. Go visit their work environment and see what they use. That may be a more beneficial start for you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> If I were you I wouldn't spend all that money on a shiny new laptop. And unlike others are suggesting, I would definitely not spend even more on a shiny new Macbook, because it's not a one-time cost. You will pay more in repairs later on.

Especially since you're interested in Linux, I'd go to ebay and buy an old Thinkpad. You can get some good cheap ones.

If you do want a Macbook, you can also get some cheap ones on ebay. I'm typing this on a 2008 Macbook that I bought last year for $500. It's serving me perfectly well as a web developer. I have also done some iOS development on it.

Before you settle on a Linux distro, try a few in VMs and see which one you like best. Then you can install that to the hard disk.

One thing to make sure is you don't buy a computer with a low max RAM. Even if it's a relatively old model, as long as you can have 4-6GB RAM, it'll work great.

If you make more money freelancing, you can sell the old computer and buy a better one. It will also teach you something about buying and selling computers, if you're interested in that kind of thing.

</comment><comment><USER9> My advice is to look at the parts of a laptop you can't change. These are the things that you will regret the most when you use it.

For me, a crisp keyboard is essential, and it's also one of the pieces where you don't have much choice once you've bought it. Same with the pointing device if you're using it in strictly laptop mode. My job laptop and my personal laptop are two different brands, and it's such a relief to go back to my personal laptop at the end of the day, mainly due to the keyboard and mouse.

Screen resolution is also very important. Yeah, you _can_ replace your screens with something better down the line, but it can be costly and it's probably better to get what you need up front.

You can generally get a larger battery (or a second battery); unless you do a lot of walking, portability may conflict with usability of the computer (tiny screen, cramped keyboard).

</comment><comment><USER7> Stay away from Samsung if you're planning on using Linux [1].

There's a new BIOS "feature" called "Secure boot" which will affect Linux on Windows 8 machines. There's been a lot of discussion of this here and among distros. Everyone says that everything will work out, but it's still a new thing, so the road may be a little bumpy. You may want to stick with Windows 7 for now.

You can often improve your experience cheaply by upgrading your RAM. You can put 8 GB in most laptops for a cost of $100 or less. This is particularly important if you use large numbers of browser tabs, or virtual machine software like Virtualbox (an easy way to get started with Linux).

As for getting a Mac -- Don't.

[1] [http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4O...](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4ODQ)

</comment><comment><USER10> I bought the cheapest, simplest little laptop I could find at Frys just because I needed an airgapped Windows solution a couple of years back. It was an eMachines (Acer) D620, and I think it cost me about $300. This was almost 4 years ago. It isn't sleek or shiny, but it does run Linux just fine.

I would hope you could find at least that much of a machine for no more than that much money today, and that's new. If you're talking about used, it might be far, far less.

It won't win any races or beauty contests, but it's not supposed to.

What _is_ "web development" to you? To me, that calls for a Linux box running Apache and the basics of being able to edit, build, run, and test code: my text editor, a compiler, the usual libraries, and my build tool. Oh, that and a recent browser, so X11. That's about it.

Your mileage will vary.

</comment><comment><USER11> Lenovo T420. Buy it from their outlet section. If you're quick, you can get one for under $700. Great computers, very sturdy, and easy to repair yourself. Highly recommended. (I own one. This is being typed from it).

</comment><comment><USER12> Linux? Get one with an Intel or nVidia graphics chipset (if you want graphics speed, go nVidia) avoid ati/radeon - its support on Linux has been touchy, the drivers have a long history of installation issues.

if you want speed again i5 is a good minimum, don't skimp on the processor, you can't pop in a better one if its too slow... you can always improve the drive/ram later - make those less a factor.

drive if possible SSD, but then don't make it a major priority as that can be swapped out on most wintel machines.

Just about any distro should work fine, the only main sticking point for Linux users are the graphics chipsets.

</comment><comment><USER13> I've seen some Thinkpad X230's for sale this week for around 750-800. This is a little over your price range but, if you can save a bit extra, this is a great machine. Has an IPS screen which definitely has a great effect when you're staring at editors all day, is easily upgradable. It's going to be as bulletproof as a MacBook but at a cheaper price. The trackpad isn't as good as a MacBook but you do get the trackpoint, which I personally prefer since it doesn't take your fingers away from the keyboard.

Lenovo is generally amiable towards running Linux. It seems to run well on the X230.

</comment><comment><USER14> Laptops are easily lost or stolen and crammed with parts that are poorly cooled and hard to replace or upgrade. They should be treated as disposable-- you can't really afford it if you'd struggle to replace it even once. If I had that problem and absolutely _had_ to be mobile, I'd buy a netbook, work remotely on a real computer (VPS, EC2, whatever), and back up religiously. You definitely shouldn't squander a big fraction of your entire net worth on the Apple Tax, suggestions here to the contrary.

</comment><comment><USER15> I am also in school (1 year older). And have tried several laptops over the last couple years. I am currently using a 13 inch business laptop.

You asked about software

      - Windows 7(I use the old Windows 98 interface, still don't like the docky thing)
      - Ubuntu (I use the gnome style, again not the dock)
      - Mac OSX (depends on the hardware and if you are willing to do some trail and error)

I have tried going with a Desktop for years, but for some reason teachers don't let me use them in class(joking). I agree I need that portability.

I currently am using one of the business laptops that are large corporate companies use. For example Thinkpad, and HP often get into corporate deals with hospitals, schools, IT infrastructures, etc..

Reasons I would do so.

1) __Cost __\- They are often fairly cheap to buy a used one. I believe there is an decrease in cost that goes on with the devices. Companies buy them in bulk and then often sell them in bulk.

2) __Supported __\- by companies, hardware and even linux(both hp and thinkpad are often Intel graphics cards)

3) __Take Apart __\- They are often intended to be taken apart. I'm serious. I have a panel on the bottom of mine to eject the back. Instance access to RAM and hard drive. I personally like the flexibility.

4) __Tracking Point __-I can't stand one of those trackpads(Yes even on Macs). The business models almost always have tracking points because a lot of business people can't stand them either. This may or may not be a selling point for you, but it is for me.

5) Quality - The business models truly feel more solid to me, and you can more easily order replacement parts online.

6) Matte Display - If you are working for long hours, I find glossy displays impossible to use. Business laptops (at least all that I have seen) use Matte Displays. This is fairly different then the glossy ones they sell in Best Buy.

I used to own a Thinkpad, now I own a Elitebook 8460p - i5 4GB. I bought it for $350 off ebay.

I will probably get a Thinkpad in a year or so I like their keyboards better.

Additionally Thinpads are what a lot of the linux kernel guys and Googlers use.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'd look for an old Macbook that you can actually upgrade (many you cannot). I'm still loving my 2008 Macbook 4.1. It's got a 2.4 Ghz processor, upgraded to SSD and 6GB of RAM and new battery (~4hrs runtime).

Check for refurbs and upgrade via Other World Computing. Not saying to go back as far as I am (for instance, my machine can't run Mountain Lion.)

I've run this computer _hard_ \- my first Mac after decades of PCs and I wouldn't go back. But do watch out for newer Mac models that can't be upgraded.

</comment><comment><USER17> I am a web developer and I personally use this one.

<http://www.sony.co.in/product/vpcyb25ag>

I got it for ~$450. It's a little slow but it gets the job done. It's extremely portable. My friends are jealous because I pick it up like it costs nothing. It's relatively lightweight. It came with Windows 7 Starter Edition preinstalled. I cleaned it up and installed Archlinux on it. Now it's my goto machine for hacking on stuff.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm also 17 and I was recently in a similar situation. I ended up buying this computer for a little bit over the price you asked [http://us.toshiba.com/computers/laptops/satellite/P850/P855-...](http://us.toshiba.com/computers/laptops/satellite/P850/P855-S5200/) Up to now I had no problems. It has some really nice specs (Intel i7 Processor, 8 GB ram), has great sound and it's not heavy

</comment><comment><USER19> I would suggest an older-generation macbook. Between the excellent hardware build quality and the well-maintained software, they don't become obsolete quickly. I've got enough cash on hand to buy a new laptop several times over, but my old macbook is still going.

If it's battery life you want, then you definitely should go with the macbook air.

</comment><comment><USER20> What about finding some local business with a poor website and offering to build them a new website for $500 if they help you buy your next computer. Now you have $1,200 to buy a new Macbook.

Don't just think about the cash you have now, think about how you can use that tool to make more...even if it is before you have the laptop.

</comment><comment><USER21> CNET has a nice site you might want to see: <http://reviews.cnet.com/laptop- reviews/>

</comment><comment><USER22> Save the money. Why buy a laptop that's only OK when you can Save 2000 and then spend a good amount on abetter laptop and still have 700 left over.

</comment><comment><USER23> Second hand x220? I use it as my personal laptop and I love it (ssd, i5, 8Gb of ram)

</comment><comment><USER24> You can pick up a 2009 Aluminum Macbook Pro from Ebay for around $550ish.

</comment><comment><USER22> if you must buy save and get a system76 linux laptop. There you go, linux and supporting a good company. Pricesn't aren't bad.

</comment><comment><USER25> I also agree that saving up for a MacBook will be worth the money.

My first laptop was a Dell Vostro, which is essentially a rebranded Inspiron. The keyboard and screen were excellent. I had issues with stability (BSOD), the slow 5400rpm harddrive didn't have much kick, the trackpad sucked, and the AC port broke. Luckily, due to my warranty, they sent out a tech to fix the AC port the next day.

Next up was a Lenovo Thinkpad T400. While the trackpad was slightly better, and the laptop itself was built like a brick, the quality of the screen with subpar, I still had BSOD issues, and the overall performance seemed to degrade very quickly. Like you, I wanted some killer battery life, so I went for the 9 cell instead of a 6 cell -- basically, a larger battery that "stuck out" of the back. Brand new, the laptop was getting a solid 8 hours, but within 15 months, it was down to 3 hours. It was really, really disappointing. In addition, the default settings for the laptop being unplugged limited the power to the wireless adapter to 50%. This was buried under several menus, and caused me to have intermittent connectivity issues for the first year I owned it, until I happened to stumble upon that one setting. Lenovo didn't offer and onsite warranty, so I had to yank the harddrive out and send mail the laptop back to them to get it serviced.

Two years ago I got a 15" MacBook Pro, and I'm still very happy with it today. My battery has degraded about 10%, so I get around 4-5 hours unplugged instead of 5-7. I opted for an SSD which was a massive performance gain compared to my old laptops. I haven't had any stability issues, and my performance is just as good as the day I bought it. The only issue is that I've had two power adapter cords break on me, but with AppleCare (totally worth the money) Apple has replaced them with no problem.

In terms of running Linux, you can very easily use VirtualBox (free) or Parallels (paid) to run Linux on OSX, instead of having to boot into one or the other. This makes it super easy to try out different distros, and if you run it in fullscreen, due to OSX's Virtual Desktops, you can assign Linux to your second desktop, and literally three-finger-swipe between OSX and Linux. It's really cool if you want to take advantage of Mac-only apps, but still get to play around with Linux. That said, the 128gb SSD might feel a little cramped a year or two down the line, but it's certainly livable.

Personally, 11" is too small for me, so I'd suggest shooting for a 13". AppleCare is $249, and you can buy it any time within the first year of owning your Mac (IIRC, all Macs have a 1-year warranty). That might make it easier to purchase one now, and deal with the extra cost later.

Really, if you have an Apple store or a Best Buy within driving distance, you should try out a half dozen different laptops. The difference in quality should be very apparent.

</comment><comment><USER26> defintely get a macbook. wait and keep saving if you have to.

</comment><comment><USER27> Don't buy Windows. You will encounter so many problems you're going to wish you had saved for a MACBOOK PRO (:</comment>


Entrepreneurial Lessons From Google All-Star and Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer - <AUTHOR> http://blog.kissmetrics.com/lessons-from-marissa-mayer/

<comment><USER2> Too much cherry picking and revisionist history in this article. Some examples:

Google Desktop: You sure it wasn't Apple who asked that question way back in 2004 and introduced Spotlight in OS X 10.4, way before Google Desktop?

Smart People: Kind of sad commentary about the author's mindeset. All those people have college degrees and 2 are masters. Author indirectly mocks those colleges and doesn't think to list any smart people that don't have college degrees. Maybe Google doesn't have any, which means this isn't really the lesson.

Age: Never mind the fact that that Google engineers are predominantly under 40 and there is an age discrimination lawsuit against Google.

Users/Competition: Google is too big to draw lessons. They are paying big attention to Amazon and Apple.

<comment><USER3> As to the Smart People and University Degrees comment, I was told by a Google Recruiter that they rarely interview people who don't have University degrees (though she agreed I had the experience to be put through). I was told that even in sales and marketing positions, a degree is a requirement.</comment></comment>


Lessons From Investing $150,000 In A Site That Didn't Take Off - <AUTHOR> http://mixergy.com/ask500people-aaron-dragushan-interview/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Mixergy-blog+%28Mixergy+-+Where+Ambitious+Upstarts+Mix%29 <comment><USER2> Aaron gave and amazing keynote at this years Bootstrap MD. I talked to him after he spoke and thought that he was a really interesting and accessible guy.

He has a great philosophy about dealing with failure. Obviously no one goes out with the intention to fail,but we all have some level of failure. Be it a small setback or a startup crashing and burning. Aaron's keynote talked about being able to deal with the stresses involved in that failure, own it, and come out the other side without losing momentum. Sort of a higher level of Rocky Balboa saying it's "Not how hard you can hit, it's how hard you can get hit and keep going." I'm sure my abstract of his talk is not nearly as inspiring, but his keynote really set the tone for a great startup event.

Glad to see him on Mixergy. Thanks Andrew for another great interview.

<comment><USER3> Thanks failquicker. I'm still looking forward to your blog concept by the way!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This interview happened because I had a comment on HN asking for this kind of story and Aaron was willing to be open about his experience.

<comment><USER3> Andrew - thanks for the interview, it was fun to do and hopefully people can learn from my many mistakes. :)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What does your startup's name mean? - <AUTHOR>

I have been having a lot of clients ask me what the name of my startup means? The truth is, it sounded cool and it was completely original, the .com/.net/.org was available. The "brand" is mine but it really has no meaning. I tried breaking down the word and seeing if any latin roots would catch but nope.<p>Should I make something up? What does your startup's name mean? <comment><USER2> You'd be amazed how few people can figure out what your name means and why .

I named my first company ZiFiMusic because it was a online radio play, and it sounded kinda like HiFi & WiFi (this was years ago when lots of people were just equating WiFi with internet). Of the few people who ever heard of it, a high percentage referred to it as (Ziffy), 'cause they just didn't get it. But I asked them what Ziffy meant to them and they said 'fast', so I figured that was still good.

With my most recent name, i went with HearWhere because it shows you where you can go for live music so Where do you go to Hear. People get that instantly. Except both words have multiple spellings (HereWear, etc.). Lesson Learned. Hopefully I'll do better on my next try.

</comment><comment><USER3> Our startup has a name which has nothing to do with what we are doing. Everyone we tell the name says its a cool name. There is a funny story behind the name but at this point we dont go out telling the story to everyone. When someone asks why, we simply say its cool and we like it.

</comment><comment><USER4> It would be good if you can find some meaning -- any similar word with positive connotations will do. People have a need to attach meaning to words, it will help it stick.

If you can't, say it came to you in a dream.

Never admit it was because the .com was available.

<comment><USER5> "One day I was sat praying in church for inspiration about the company name, yeah I know that is strange for a Hindu, I paused for a snack and sliced open a pomegranate offered to me by a haggard monk. The pips formed a word ..."</comment></comment>


A 65-Year-Old Woman with an Incorrect Operation on the Left Hand - <AUTHOR> http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcpc1007085

<comment><AUTHOR> This doctor is being a good engineer. The first rule of good engineering is to admit your mistakes as quickly as possible and as thoroughly as necessary, and then to try to use design to avoid making the same mistake twice.

Anyway, this is good bedtime reading for those who aspire to five nines of uptime.

Don't miss "the Swiss Cheese model of harm", and the following quote:

 _Everyone on the team should feel empowered to say, "Wait, are we sure that what we are doing is correct?" I learned an important rule in the U.S. Air Force: "Never worry alone." If you think something doesn't look right, whether you are a scrub nurse, a technician, a medical assistant, a surgeon, or an internist, never worry alone. Stop and discuss it, because those stops result in close calls instead of real events._</comment>


The Mistake Smart People Make: Being In Motion vs. Taking Action - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/the-blog-of-james-clear/the-mistake-smart-people-make-being-in-motion-vs-taking-action-fd5873162a9b

<comment><USER2> Interesting argument by Shaan Puri on 'motion, not direction.'

[http://shaanpuri.com/motion-not-direction](http://shaanpuri.com/motion-not- direction)</comment>


The hijacking flaw that lurked in Intel chips is worse than anyone thought - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/05/the-hijacking-flaw-that-lurked-in-intel-chips-is-worse-than-anyone-thought/ <comment><USER2> I wish that this security incident would get more attention. It seems fundamentally unfair that some projects that are essentially volunteer labor get so much scrutiny, while Intel doing some so fundamentally asshole-ish gets mostly ignored.

<comment><USER3> If scrutiny improves the project it's ultimately a good thing.

<comment><USER4> ...which is exactly why Intel chips should get it too.

<comment><USER3> Totally, but what I'm saying is it's not unfair, it's an inherent benefit of OSS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's two things that don't get mentioned much with this issue.

1\. There's a second bug that allows non-root local users to provision AMT. _" An unprivileged local attacker could provision manageability features"_[1]

2\. Access to AMT allows you to boot a recovery image, mount local drives, and do whatever you like with the included remote KVM.[2][3]

So, even if this is turned off, there are issues to address. If it's on, they have control of the whole machine, remotely. It's as bad as it can get.

[1] [https://security- center.intel.com/advisory.aspx?intelid=INTE...](https://security- center.intel.com/advisory.aspx?intelid=INTEL-SA-00075)

[2] [https://software.intel.com/en- us/node/681803](https://software.intel.com/en-us/node/681803)

[3] [https://software.intel.com/en- us/node/674998](https://software.intel.com/en-us/node/674998)

</comment><comment><USER6> There is a great comment linked at the bottom of the article that explains what exactly caused the authentication bug (it was strncmp!). Is there somehow a law that states that the higher the severity of a software bug, the simpler the reason behind it?

<comment><USER7> From the comment:

What the programmer should have done is check if the hash coming from the browser has the correct length, 32 characters, before attempting to compare the two strings. Or even better, the programmer should have used the proper string comparing function, strcmp, that already does that for you...

<comment><USER2> strcmp has its own issues. What they actually should have done is use a cryptography library with properly implemented comparison, because it is surprisingly easy to get wrong.

Also, fixed length hashes aren't strings. They shouldn't use the same functions as strings.

Edit: Using a proper cryptography library also might have saved them from using MD5. At the very least, most modern libraries have a warning that is is deprecated and should not be used for new projects.

<comment><USER8> Yep, even if they had used memcmp/strncmp correctly the AMT would still be vulnerable to a timing attack here, which is probably even easy, because it runs on a low-power system with, I assume, not much background activity.

<comment><USER2> In addition to timing attacks, if the attacker supplied a non null terminated string, it could potentially cause a memory overrun. This may not be possible depending on how the string is handled on ingress, but if it is, it would likely have serious consequences.

<comment><USER9> The attacker supplies ""-enclosed string and the HTTP parser is supposed to verify this.

Maybe they used some in-place HTTP parser and that's why they didn't have zero-termination to use strcmp.

And btw, it's not clear if the code was C to begin with. I believe large chunk of ME firmware is said to be written in Java, which kinda makes sense for a network facing system considering how shitty _string.h_ is.

It would be interesting if somebody found that they are using some COTS webserver, C/Java - doesn't matter, and see if there are some CVEs for it.

<comment><USER2> I doubt using Java would really help in this case, because in order to use Java they would have to port the entire JVM to whatever platform they are using. Doing this without introducing any security bugs is about as difficult as just doing everything in C to begin with. By the way, the fact that the issue was with strncmp very strongly suggests that the issue was in C code.

<comment><USER8> Some security paper showed ARM disassembly of the issue, although I'm not sure if that was _this specific_ issue or just another "strncmp-induced" issue.

(Btw. there are many smaller Java VMs for stuff like Java Card and JEFF)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> So where all this authentication and web UI code resides? Is it in the BIOS? Is there somewhere a packed JQuery or something?

<comment><USER5> It's in the AMT code, written in C, in the management engine processor...which is separate from the main processor. See: [https://software.intel.com/en- us/node/631399](https://software.intel.com/en-us/node/631399)

They are using HTTP Digest Authentication, which is built into browsers. The purpose was to keep passwords from being clear text over regular http connections.

So, the code on the client side is in the browser. The code on the server side is in the management processor, and it is a C implementation of HTTP Digest Auth.

The bug is that they used strncmp, but used the length of the incoming hash from the client as the string length to compare, versus the actual length that the hash string is supposed to be. The exploit is to send an empty hash. That requires a proxy, or browser plugin, since the browser creates the Digest Auth Headers. The empty hash causes something like strncmp(expected, received_hash_string, 0), and of course, two zero length strings are equal.

<comment><USER11> > The bug is that they used strncmp, but used the length of the incoming hash > from the client as the string length to compare, versus the actual length > that the hash string is supposed to be.

Ignoring timing attacks, they should have used strcmp(), not strncmp(). strncmp() is for testing if one string is a prefix of another; they wanted to test if some string equaled another.

Since this is crypto related stuff, though, they should be using a strcmp()-like routine that works in a content-independent timing fashion.

<comment><USER12> But using strcmp could result in buffer overflow, no?

<comment><USER11> How so? We aren't talking about strcpy(), just strcmp(), and all the strings in question should be nul-terminated (if they aren't then mem* routines should be used and more length checks would be needed; there are also timing attacks to worry about if we're considering all the possible issues).

But normally strncmp isn't safer than strcmp. They just do different things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> One interesting note in the article: « unauthorized accesses typically aren't logged by the PC because AMT has direct access to the computer's network hardware. »

That's unsurprising now I think about it, given how AMT works, but aren't the sort of companies that would want to use AMT also the sort of companies that have security policies that require all such things to be logged?

</comment><comment><USER14> I disagree with the article. If anything, it's much less severe than many people thought.

\- It's a logic bug (authentication bypass) instead of a memory corruption. An authentication bypass is bad, but a full compromise would have been much worse.

\- It's a bug in the opt-in AMT management, which means that the default config is not vulnerable.

<comment><USER15> "An authentication bypass is bad, but a full compromise would have been much worse."

Given the authentication bypass essentially leads to full compromise, where's the difference, here?

<comment><USER9> The difference is, you are no longer limited to functionality normally provided by AMT. Maybe AMT doesn't offer the ability to download arbitrary memory locations from the running OS and applications, with remote code execution on the ME you could do that. You could modify code running on the CPU on-the-fly and make it read files from disk to memory for downloading too - again, I don't think AMT can read disks, especially when the OS is running and using them concurrently.

<comment><USER5> You can boot a recovery image though, and edit files on the installed OS that way.

<comment><USER9> It just isn't quite as stealthy if you have to power up the box when it's supposed to be off.

I mean, not everybody runs Windows 10 and is used to his machine having a free will of its own ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> At what point does it become reasonable to conclude that strncmp, and every other string API that treats the pointer to the string and its length as separable variables, are too dangerous to be used in security-sensitive software? I feel like I've seen another vulnerability _this week_ from someone sending the wrong length to a standard C string function.

If you want to fix this, there's no strict need to move away from C (not that I'd particularly encourage you to stay, but if you have some reason to prefer C, you can solve this in C). There are a number of C libraries that give you a struct string {char *ptr; int len;} of some sort, from bstring to GLib. And there's always C++, too.

What need does the Intel AMT firmware have for compatibility with POSIX string APIs? It's not running a POSIX OS, is it?

<comment><USER17> Could you elaborate on why "treating the pointer to a string and the string length as separate vars" is dangerous to someone who hasn't done a lot of C?

<comment><USER18> If you access a memory location beyond the end of the string, you can get all sorts of unexpected behavior. The string's length is something you'll pretty much always need to take into account.

<comment><USER19> Many libraries and systems (e.g. Win32) just go with null-terminated strings and their functions don't accept a length argument at all - so I wonder if some people never store the length simply because they don't believe they'll ever need it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It just keeps getting better: Intel's diagnostic tool is published with an MD5 checksum.

<comment><USER21> That's fine. I will literally give you $10,000 if¹ you can give me a MD5 preimage attack. Take your attack vector to be that particular md5sum that you are making fun of.

MD5 is not broken for the usage that you think it's broken for. Please don't snipe on things like this again. People like you who say things like "md5 is always bad" or "you should bcrypt, duh" are literally cargo culting the idea of computer security.

In addition to the fundamental technical deficiency you've demonstrated, people who opine on security threads while not quite understanding anything about computer security allow charlatans to sell "computer security". Every single comment like this lends credence to literal scam artists.

¹note, this is actually a prize for a weaker claim than an preimage attack; all I want is a second preimage (!)

<comment><USER2> The reason that people move away from a hash function when it looses collision resistance is that collision resistance serves as a measure of the security margin for preimage resistance. Cryptographic primitives are intended to be rotated out of use about 10-15 years before they become actually broken for their intended purpose. Unless you are willing to extend you bounty to the year 2030 it is means nothing.

In addition, you are completely wrong about the harm caused by simplifying the rules of thumb for security. There is not good reason to ever use MD5 for this purpose, and saying "MD5 is ok in some cases" has the potentially to do far more harm than "never use MD5".

> note, this is actually a prize for a weaker claim than an preimage attack; > all I want is a second preimage (!)

Don't act like you are doing GP a favor, second preimage is the attack that would cause a vulnerability in this usage of MD5.

You are the one who is"opin[ing] on security threads while not quite understanding anything", so I think before the next time you condescendingly correct someone you should make sure you have a basic understanding of what you are talking about.

<comment><USER21> You're clearly somebody who wants to rely on "rules of thumb" for security. I'm arguing against the entire concept of rules of thumb and you've since argued against a strawman. Did I ever say "MD5 is ok in some cases"?

Aside: a preimage attack implies a second preimage attack.

<comment><USER2> >You're clearly somebody who wants to rely on "rules of thumb" for security. I'm arguing against the entire concept of rules of thumb

Not all devs are security experts, or can even afford to focus on security. To deny the value of rules of thumb is to deny that they need to consider security.

> Did I ever say "MD5 is ok in some cases"?

Oh, really? Were you not arguing that MD5 is ok if you only need preimage resistance?

> MD5 is not broken for the usage that you think it's broken for. Please don't > snipe on things like this again. People like you who say things like "md5 is > always bad" or "you should bcrypt, duh" are literally cargo culting the idea > of computer security.

Hmm. Seems like you were...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This is a dream come true for AMD.

<comment><USER23> AMD has a similar system, likely with simular issues. Their smaller footprint means they just take longer for people to notice than an Intel snafu. Hopefully this will give them a preemptive heads up to harden theirs before an exploit is discovered.

<comment><USER24> AMD made some noise (way before this vulnerability became known) about open- sourcing the code of their ME-equivalent and allowing people to flash their own code.

That seems a lot better than Intel's stance on the ME.

<comment><USER25> Unless something new happened that I'm unaware of, it was more like "the people of Reddit made some noise in an AMA, and AMD basically said "we'll look in to it"".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Should be more like a backdoor that NSA/CIA can walk in rather than hijacking flaw or "OH! I didnt know there was a flaw!"

Surely a new one must have been created since NSA tools are out on the net

</comment><comment><USER27> Is the amount of attention this is getting commensurate with how interesting/surprising/consequential a security flaw it is?

<comment><USER3> I don't think it's just that the flaw exists, which alone is pretty bad, but how widely deployed it is in large enterprise, coupled with Intel ignoring it after being given years of notice and also the unease about AMT in the OSS community since it's deployment. To be honest, I doubt 9/10 people who care about this are going to stop using Intel, but it's still a comedy of errors and I think everyone loves a spectacle.

<comment><USER14> > Intel ignoring it after being given years of notice

Sure about that? From what I can tell, it's a recently discovered vulnerability that was promptly fixed.

<comment><USER3> According to SemiAccurate (terrible name for a source) they reported it to Intel some time ago.

<comment><USER14> As far as I know, Embedi and not SemiAccurate found and reported the issue.

[https://www.embedi.com/files/white-papers/Silent-Bob-is- Sile...](https://www.embedi.com/files/white-papers/Silent-Bob-is-Silent.pdf)

> An authentication bypass vulnerability, which will be later known as > CVE-2017-5689, was originally discovered in __mid-February of 2017 __while > doing side-research on the internals of Intel ME firmware. The first objects > of interest were network services and protocols.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Interesting how this article steadfastly refers to the subsystem as AMT and never mentions Management Engine/ME. A deliberate ploy to redirect people away from discovering all the ME-disabling research and tech? Perhaps. This is what happens when "journalists" post copypasta from publicists.

<comment><USER29> I quote: "When AMT is enabled, all network packets are redirected to the Intel Management Engine"

<comment><USER30> As far as I know, it's only doing this for the primary (on-chip) network interface. /Never/ use the primary NIC if you have a Intel CPU.</comment></comment></comment>


787 plane draws a 7-8-7 - <AUTHOR> http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE236

<comment><USER2> awesome! crazy my friends at boeing hadn't heard about this.</comment>


Ask HN: 2015 MBP users, what machine have you upgraded to, or are planning to? - <AUTHOR> I've got a 2015 MBP, and unfortunately after constant use every day for the last 5 years, the screen has started to flicker, and I've finally had to admit that I need more RAM for things like Docker/Vagrant. Although the amount of spec you get for your money has always been a bit of an insult from Apple, the latest 13" line-up (not a fan of bigger sizes) seems insane.
My current laptop cost around £1200 new (5 years ago), and came with a 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM. The current cheapest 13" MBP costs £1300 and sports a tiny 128GB SSD and still 8GB RAM.
If I select the 3rd (of 4) most expensive laptop, which has a reasonable CPU (albeit 8th gen), then bump the RAM to a realistic 16GB, and the SSD to 512GB, the price is £2179, which is insane. From Dell I can get the same spec, with a 10th gen CPU, for about £500 less.
I've used Mac for the last 18 or so years and would consider myself a Pro user, but it feels like madness to spend over £2000 on a machine that's on an older spec CPU than most competitors, for a lot more price.
If anyone from Apple is reading this, screw you for making the emoji bar mandatory and not giving the 13" MBP a physical escape key. <comment><USER2> As of three years now my MBP 2015 is running ChromeOS so my next laptop would be probably something like Pixelbook Go (2 pounds, decent keyboard, 16GB)

But since ChromeOS can run on just about anything (I use as a spare laptop ChromeOS on $100 Thinkpad x230) I really do not have to worry about upgrading MBP 2015.

For the sake of the planet I will probably go for anything available 2-nd hand with decent screen.

</comment><comment><USER3> As a lifelong Mac user, it seems 2015 MBP was "peak Apple" and I've also been frustrated with more recently released machines.

This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but - I built a desktop Hackintosh for flexibility, repairability, extensibility. It dual-boots Ubuntu, for now. I'm migrating off of macOS gradually, and looking at Thinkpads for laptop.

<comment><AUTHOR> Funnily enough when discussing this with a friend this morning I also described my 2015 MBP as 'peak Apple'.

Sadly I need a laptop instead of a desktop, and I can't be bothered to battle with Hackintosh compatibility...

<comment><USER3> For what it's worth, here are a couple of laptop models I noted down from prior HN discussions on this topic:

Lenovo ThinkPad E/T/X series; X1 Carbon

Dell XPS 13

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Also, as a secondary question, is there any physical difference between a US MBP, and a UK MBP, other than the charger? The same £2179 laptop in the US (with taxes) comes to £1792. I have some family in the US that visit annually, so a saving of almost £400 would be nice.

<comment><USER4> Apart from the keyboard layout (no £ or example) another difference is the local salex tax, that's lower in the US.

You have to pay customs at the UK airport for any item over £390. [https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside- the...](https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu)

<comment><AUTHOR> > You have to pay customs

Only if you declare it ;)</comment></comment></comment>


Google involved with Clinton campaign, controls information flow – Assange - <AUTHOR> https://www.rt.com/usa/345749-assange-us-google-clinton/ <comment><USER2> I wonder how a "perfect" society would devise a system to keep search engines and other service providers from creating monopolies? I imagine they would force people to use different software based on region or something. It would be nice if instead of having a mass spying apparatus we had a mass bug tracking apparatus and mandated open source, emphasized programming and hacking like we do sports, and gave people large rewards and fame for finding bugs in our software.

I imagine we'll be in a society soon (next 100 years) where we 3D print all of our own food and most of our stuff, which means it will likely be downloaded from some remote database. If the global food database were to be hacked we could see mass poisonings. I don't trust security through obscurity in these cases and wouldn't eat food if I couldn't view the ingredients.

The FBI/NSA/CIAs purpose is to keep people _insecure_ so that they can spy on them. This is the opposite of what we need.</comment>


Kardashev scale - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

<comment><USER2> One of the coolest sci-fi ideas related to the scale is that of a Dyson Sphere (a megastructure that surronds a star to collect it's energy). I recall personally encountering the idea for the first time in a Star Trek episode. The wikipedia article mentions it. Sends a chill down my spine.

Edit: Here's a link to the ST-TNG episode: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relics_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Gen...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relics_\(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation\))

<comment><USER3> Is a Dyson sphere or swarm even possible? It seems to me that the sun's gravity could collapse the sphere, since it wouldn't actually be _orbiting_. A swarm has similar problems: is it possible to orbit within an orbital plane that doesn't intersect the center of gravity of the sun?

<comment><USER4> Dyson's original concept was basically to completely obscure the star in a cloud of satellites. It would be a little inefficient, insofar as some satellites would obscure others at any given time, but it's at least physically possible.

There's been some speculation that the integrity of a Dyson shell (the thing most people know as a Dyson sphere) could be maintained by basically running large masses in orbits along the shell. Again, it would be a little inefficient (you're using some of the star's energy to power "not collapsing"), but we don't necessarily know it's impossible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I also recommend _Stellar Migration and the Human Experience_, which is chock full of stuff about Dyson spheres, "star lifting" (reducing a star's mass to prolong its life), and discussion of starship design.

<comment><USER6> That book was a great piece. The information was fantastic, I can't believe I left it behind when I moved country, and even more I regret it because I've seen people trying to sell copies for $150 when I bought it for $5 new.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This scale can be a wonderful focal point to explore different kinds of energy technologies. Once it gets to type I, the mega-structures we think would be required stir the imagination.

</comment><comment><USER8> Also worth a link: Greydon Square's excellent science-themed hip-hop album of the same name: <http://greydonsquare.bandcamp.com/album/the-kardashev-scale>

</comment><comment><USER9> This scale is very cool and all, but speculation about when we will acheive these levels is a guessing game. In the very least it ignores the possibility of a technological singularity, beyond which speculation becomes impossible.

<comment><USER10> I agree about the guessing game, but games are fun! I spent a good long while reading this site that speculates on all sorts of cool future achievements.

<http://www.futuretimeline.net/>

<comment><USER11> Ive just spent the last two hours reading all the links that were posted on here. Future Timeline is an awesome site.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I first read about Kardashev Scale on Michio Kaku's Parallel worlds. Nice starting point to speculation!!

</comment><comment><USER13> I love that the example of Type I is a synopsis of Stargate Universe</comment>


Added console.table support to Firefox 34+ - <AUTHOR> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=899753

<comment><AUTHOR> See this in action: [http://imgur.com/swbkdix](http://imgur.com/swbkdix)

based on the code from [https://plus.google.com/+AddyOsmani/posts/PmTC5wwJVEc](https://plus.google.com/+AddyOsmani/posts/PmTC5wwJVEc)</comment>


Show HN: Techmasters – group for technologists to improve their public speaking - <AUTHOR> http://techmasters.io

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm the founder of Techmasters and would love to get some feedback on the idea.

It a free program modeled after toastmasters.org in that it focuses on decentralized learning (ie there is no one go-to "expert" leading the meeting), and on anonymous feedback (after each presentation written feedback is submitted by all audience members).

But the program and the presentation topics have been updated to meet the needs of technologists and those in the startup community. The specifics of the program are still getting worked on, and will eventually have much more guidance as to the goals of each presentation on the website.

I'm starting the meetings here in Berlin some time in April, but would love to get some feedback as I begin the process of getting word out about the group!</comment>


Time.gif - def- https://hookrace.net/blog/time.gif <comment><AUTHOR> In 1994 I was in high school, and there were no animated GIFs. One way you could make images move in the web browser was to use a mechanism similar to this.

I wrote a C program which would load 6 frames of a smiley face animation and would feed them sequentially, in an endless loop, to anyone who requested the image. Mosaic was happy to animate them.

I get called in to the web mistress's office. The web server is down. We had a donated Silicon Graphics Origin server, if my memory serves me correctly. This was a beefy machine.

The cgi-bin C program would load 6 images, as fast as it possibly could, and dump them into a network socket. It would not throttle. It would not check if the client disconnected. It had one job. It did it efficiently, and ruthlessly.

Poor server.

<comment><USER2> how can such an old browser run a C program embedded within it? Can someone elaborate how this could have been done

<comment><USER3> NCSA httpd introduced the Common Gateway Interface which allows you to execute any binary, and whatever it puts on stdout is sent as the reply. Back then it was typically a Perl script or a compiled C binary.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface)

<comment><USER4> My company makes a DAS(distributed Antenna System) product with an embedded web interface. All of our web sites have C/C++ cgi back ends. There are more makefiles in the Web folder than the whole rest of system. It is quite mind boggling. But the engineer that has control over this area is stuck in the 90s.

<comment><USER5> My main objection to such systems is security. It is difficult enough to take care of it in modern frameworks, but in C?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I did something similar long time ago with multipart/x-mixed-replace content type. [http://zabasoft.xf.cz/clock.gif](http://zabasoft.xf.cz/clock.gif)

<comment><USER7> Interesting. Firefox' developer console does not understand this kind of request properly and shows its termination after the first frame. Chromium on the other hand handles it correctly.

<comment><USER8> Works in Firefox for me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is absolutely awesome.

I wonder if this can be used to stream regular GIFs, so that you don't have to wait for the whole thing to load before seeing the animation.

I'm currently working on a project focusing on GIFs ([https://www.gifsonic.com](https://www.gifsonic.com)), I'll definitely study this to see if it's possible.

<comment><USER10> That is how my browser behaves normally in Chrome at least. Progressive loading of normal .gifs, playing frames as they are available

<comment><USER9> Sure, but the animation sucks. Extremely choppy and slowed down.

I wonder if this technique can optimize preloading.

For instance, we could send out only 1/2 of the frames (of course, with twice the delay to keep the same animation speed), then load the rest as it's available.

I have no idea what I'm talking about yet, but there seem to be something here.

<comment><USER11> I would prefer, as UX, that it would follow this order:

\- First load first frame on lowres (may be so lo that is blurred)

\- Then add a small rotating _loading icon_ on top of image, possibly with a notation that is a GIF

\- Then load first frame completely at correct resolution

\- Then load all the other frames _in the background_ , only showing me the first frame still

\- When all frames are completely loaded, remove loading rotating icon and run the GIF normally.

<comment><USER9> Awesome suggestions. I'll try to see if it's possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I did the same thing about fifteen years ago by generating a mJPEG stream from a PHP-script. As far as I can remember, it seemed more reliable than using GIF. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_JPEG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_JPEG)

<comment><USER13> The main advantage is that, because a video format rather than an image that can loop, the player can discard past frames. The GIF method is probably constantly leaking memory.

<comment><USER7> > The GIF method is probably constantly leaking memory.

If the browser only keeps compressed frames, 16 GB will last for more than a year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This technique used to be used to embed "videos" into html emails years ago. Haven't seen it used in a long time maybe email clients block the streaming behavior now (for good reason).

</comment><comment><USER15> Tried to make it output with chunked-encoding:

\- In Chrome it shows nothing (looks like it waits for end of stream)

\- In Safari it shows only the first frame

\- In Firefox it works (shows animated clock)

Branch with chunked encoding: [https://github.com/kolen/time.gif/tree/chunked- encoding](https://github.com/kolen/time.gif/tree/chunked-encoding)

</comment><comment><USER16> This is really cool! Completely suboptimal but fascinating none the less. Great project and idea :) would be interested in hearing some people's ideas for real applications of this

<comment><USER17> One use case for automatically adapting/live updating gifs is emails since HTML in emails can only have a very limited subset of functionality.

One can use automatically generated gifs to add things like countdown timers based on the opening time of the email. (i.e. loading time of the image) See for example this post: [https://litmus.com/community/learning/27-how-to-add-a- countd...](https://litmus.com/community/learning/27-how-to-add-a-countdown- timer-to-your-email)

<comment><USER18> This won't work with gmail, the images are precached.

<comment><USER19> Actually, that's not true. GMail proxies images, but doesn't do a lot in the way of caching. They actually cache the _DOM_ when moving between messages for a short while, but a browser reload will reset it.

<comment><USER18> Been working for 3 years in the past in an email isp I had different information, gmail did cache the images and did it "forever". May be this changed recently?

More info: [https://litmus.com/blog/gmail-adds-image-caching-what-you- ne...](https://litmus.com/blog/gmail-adds-image-caching-what-you-need-to-know)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> So this was done during a programming paradigms course at KIT? I'm teaching functional programming basics using Haskell at my university. At the end of the semester we aren't quite that far. But I am far from sure whether this exercise, just looking at the given types, has didactic value and I wonder how much of the stuff the instructor has given and how much the students worked out themselves given the course materials.

I would be a bit hesitant (teaching-wise), to talk about any function of the type IO () -> IO Char -> (Frame -> IO ()) -> IO ()

Although, not to be a spoil sport, it seems like a fun thing to do over a long weekend.

<comment> def- This is just using the framework that I made for the exercise. The students didn't have to do any Crazy IO stuff. You can see the parts under "Aufgabe" here, which is what they were supposed to code: [https://github.com/def-/gifstream/blob/master/SnakeFinished....](https://github.com/def-/gifstream/blob/master/SnakeFinished.hs#L67)

Exercises in German here: [https://github.com/def-/gifstream/blob/master/Aufgabe.pdf](https://github.com/def-/gifstream/blob/master/Aufgabe.pdf)

<comment><USER20> This seems interesting. Maybe I can use something similar next year to generate some interest. Without IO (which is monads, which is too advances since we also do functional C# and functional java paradigms in the same course) the subject matter is always a bit dry since the students have nothing but the ghci repl to get any interaction or feedback going.

<comment><USER21> What if you were to give students some functions like

        imShow :: [[Int]] -> IO ()
        playSound [Int] -> IO ()

? This would give them a little more liveliness but wouldn't require them to understand anything beyond "IO () is something that the repl can run". If they're feeling exploratory, maybe give them a few monadic combinators like >> to play around with, possibly specialized to IO.

<comment><USER22> You could also build a "sandbox" monad specifically for the class/framework. Let the students treat the monad as a blackbox Turing machine/state machine, unless they get time/interest/show aptitude to dive deeper. Doing that gives you the benefit that they don't accidentally google "Haskell IO" and fall down the monad rabbit hole without some preparation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> see also raytracing clock on PNG: [http://www.ioccc.org/2013/mills/hint.html](http://www.ioccc.org/2013/mills/hint.html)

<comment><USER24> I know I'm a bit fatigued... but where / how do I download the doflickymabob to make this go?

<comment><USER25> The source (and Makefile which defines the camera/light coord. see hint.html) for the winning IOCCC entries are available in the parent directory.

[http://www.ioccc.org/2013/mills/](http://www.ioccc.org/2013/mills/)

It might be more convenient to download the annual winning entry tarball.

[http://www.ioccc.org/2013/2013.tar.bz2](http://www.ioccc.org/2013/2013.tar.bz2)

Alternatively, try the index for all of the winning entry files.

[http://www.ioccc.org/years.html](http://www.ioccc.org/years.html)

edit: By the way, if you download 2013.tar.bz2, I highly recommend checking out the cable3, which implements an entire IBM PC capable of running Windows 3.0 in only 4043 bytes (8086 nibbles).

[http://www.ioccc.org/2013/cable3/hint.html](http://www.ioccc.org/2013/cable3/hint.html)

<comment><USER26> > edit: By the way, if you download 2013.tar.bz2, I highly recommend checking > out the cable3, which implements an entire IBM PC capable of running Windows > 3.0 in only 4043 bytes (8086 nibbles).

People interested in that emulator may also want to know that the non- obfuscated version (still only 760 physical lines of C, though that's partly achieved by putting opcode information in the BIOS ROM) has moved to GitHub:

[https://github.com/adriancable/8086tiny](https://github.com/adriancable/8086tiny)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> When you are running out of time, but still got a decent video player ready:

       $ mpv --cache=no https://hookrace.net/time.gif

</comment><comment><USER28> This reminds me of a project I've created a few years ago that does live video streaming with endless GIFs: [https://github.com/jbochi/gifstreaming](https://github.com/jbochi/gifstreaming)

</comment><comment><USER29> Very interesting from a tech perspective, make sure you lazy load the gif if you plan on using it after window load event otherwise it's never going to happen and you'll just get the endless spinner :D

</comment><comment><USER30> eBay sometimes sends out emails with auction countdowns in them that do something similar.

The first time that I saw an accurate countdown ticking away in an email, it surprised the heck out of me.

<comment><USER31> You can do it too with services like motionmail.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Hey, cool, I wanted to do the exact same thing the other day but as a countdown clock. For those saying this has no practical use, a countdown definitely does :)

<comment><USER6> For a countdown, you don't need to stream it, just generate animated countdown gif.

<comment><USER33> I think they meant "count down to moment X, when something special is scheduled to take place" rather than "count down from 100".

<comment><USER6> Makes sense. I thought of "This email autodestructs in 10... 9" style countdown.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Pretty interesting! Increases in size by ~4KB every second though. Probably would take a toll on your browser if you left it open for a while. :)

<comment><USER35> The server could finish sending frames and let the gif loop after 12/24 hours have elapsed.

<comment><USER36> This would fail to account for things like leap seconds

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is great. If I were to serve this over apache is there a limit on the connections? I'm asking because I'm assuming there is only a specific number of concurrent connections per child in apache(?).

So if gif 2 is embedded in 100 sites will it bring my server down since children are not closing connections?

<comment> def- I had problems with Haskell after 1024 open sockets, but compiling with ghc -threaded fixed them. Other than that, no problems encountered yet. (using nginx as proxy)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Doesn't seem to work in iPhone safari. Displays the time you loaded the page but doesn't update.

<comment> def- Too bad. I only tested with Firefox, Chrome and Android. You could try [http://hookrace.net:5002/](http://hookrace.net:5002/) directly

Edit: I have now added some cache-control directives, maybe they help

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Also check out [https://github.com/ErikvdVen/php- gif](https://github.com/ErikvdVen/php-gif) It generates real-time GIF images with PHP, such as countdown, etc.

</comment><comment><USER40> Am still waiting for it to finish looping ;)

There's probably a cheap optimization in there somewhere. Diffing frames on each tick, but for that size it probably doesn't matter. Thanks for the link to GifStream!

</comment><comment><USER41> It's slow by 4 seconds

<comment> def- I notice that it has some problems with lots of visitors and some browsers that delay showing the next frame of the gif. I guess that's what happens when you misuse GIFs

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> [gifsockets]([https://github.com/videlalvaro/gifsockets](https://github.com/videlalvaro/gifsockets)) is another version of this

</comment><comment><USER43> The code is constantly 1 second behind.

</comment><comment><USER44> > It is written in Haskell and works by dynamically generating each frame of > the GIF and slowly feeding them over the HTTP connection.

This seems rather difficult. These are dynamically generated. There are 24 _60_ 60=86400 possible slides, but at download time, we have to find the correct starting point. Did I get that right?

<comment><USER45> What would the difficulty be? You pick the first image by looking at the server time then send the next frames once per second...

You may optimize it by sending diffed frames (IIRC the gif format allows one to only update the pixels that change from one frame to the next). You could even pre-generate both sets of images (full frame and diff) and use the script to send the right frame at the right time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> finally useful haskell project

</comment><comment><USER47> McAuliffe Counters Critics of Police Response to Charlottesville Violence [http://www.scout.com/Board/102743/Contents/fRee-Colts-Vs- Lio...](http://www.scout.com/Board/102743/Contents/fRee-Colts-Vs-Lions-Li-ve- STream-2017-NFL-Game-TV-106089255)

</comment><comment><USER48> I don't understand why this is getting so much attention. From the description:

"[It] works by dynamically generating each frame of the GIF and slowly feeding them over the HTTP connection."

So there is nothing (AFAICT) new or interesting going on here. It's just an animation generated by the server in real time that happens to be formatted as a gif. It's no different from what many low-end web-enabled security cameras do.

<comment><USER49> No, low end security cameras send separate JPEG images (sometimes as a MJPEG stream), not GIF frames. GIF frames would be terrible for the cameras because of the limited colour palette.

<comment><USER48> OK, well, that's true. But is sending an animated gif instead of jpegs really that much of an innovation? If I did the same thing using, say, APNGs would HN go crazy over that?

<comment><USER50> Nobody is going crazy, they are simply learning things. If you've got something to teach, HN will probably like it.

Though I'm not sure why you even care what HN likes. It certainly isn't measured in units of innovation, as you seem to think it should.

<comment><USER48> Maybe "going crazy" was overstating it. But it has >350 upvotes, and a lot of comments like this:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997202](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997202)

"This is absolutely awesome."

I'm just trying to understand why people think it's "absolutely awesome." It seems, at best, mildly interesting to me.

<comment><USER51> This is textbook middlebrow dismissal.

Let's turn it around. Why do you think it's so important that we understand how unimpressed and uninterested you are?

This is a simple, accessible project that people think is fun. They upvoted it.

<comment><USER48> OK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> interesting concept, but not very practical compared to www.time.is

</comment><comment><USER53> _Waits for the Node.js implementation_

</comment><comment><USER54> it is one of those thing you do because you can do that. If you try to open the GIF only it won't work well and if you try to save it as image it won't work.

for me it has no real application that I can think of, it consume lot of bandwidth and processing even for small size gif.

good knowledge for developer, I certainly cannot even think in that line. But no use of it in current form.</comment>


What is your biggest challenge with web forms? - <AUTHOR>

I've started to interview people about web form builders services and only 1 of 10 wants to use online services.
Why don't you use online services like wufoo or formstack?
What is your biggest challenge with web forms? <comment><USER2> Building a form isn't a challenge. Its trivial. Most developers have stock CSS and validation they reuse from project to project, customizing as necessary.

Services like wufoo and formstack are for non-technical users, not developers.</comment>


Apple's App Analytics Beta Opens to All Developers - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/05/13/apples-app-analytics-beta-opens-to-all-developers/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29 <comment><USER2> So glad this finally happened. It sucks that you only get the data from users that opt in and it has a 24 hour delay...</comment>


The Next Step: Application-Level Fault Injection - <AUTHOR> https://www.gremlin.com/the-next-step-application-level-fault-injection/ <comment><AUTHOR> Gremlin infra engineer here. I'm happy to answer or route any questions on chaos engineering in general or application-layer failure techniques.

It's really compelling for exploring and shoring up my own systems and I expect it to be good for others as well.</comment>


Silicon Valley Has an Unfair Advantage, Deutsche Telekom CEO Says - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/18/silicon-valley-has-an-unfair-advantage-deutsche-telekom-ceo-says/

<comment><USER2> This is nonsense. Facebook is effectively a website, not an infrastructure in the same vein as telecoms. Why should they be regulated like telecoms? They aren't providing bandwidth or pipes. The DT guy has his business confused. Facebook isn't a utility. It's like the electric company complaining that microwaves funny have to be regulated the same way as power plants. Facebook is ultimately a consumer of telecom infrastructure, not a provider of it.

<comment><USER3> I mostly agree, although Zuckerberg has compared Facebook to public utilities water and electricity. [http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mark-zuckerberg-thinks- cool-w...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mark-zuckerberg-thinks-cool-wears- shirt/story?id=26738638) The other thing is that telecoms are inclined to become monopolies due to physical their infrastructure, and then they piss off their users who then petition governments for regulation. The point at which Facebook has sufficiently little competition while also annoying its users, it too will be regulated. But I don't see how you just haphazardly regulate X the same way as Y, just because both seem to do Z.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Would you employ a C# programmer who pronounces it "see hash"? - <AUTHOR>

Someone just called me on the phone and said that they are looking for a job as a "see hash" programmer.
Someone else spoke to me the other day about a C++ job and said that they are a "C double plus programmer"?
Does it matter?
UPDATE: here's another question - would you employ someone for a development role IF THEIR NAME IN THE EMAIL ADDRESS WAS ALL IN CAPS?  Does that matter? <comment><USER2> On the one hand you aren't hiring them to speak about the language so it doesn't really matter how they pronounce it. On the other hand it displays an unfamiliarity with the language and community to not know how it is pronounced. It would make me suspicious but not immediately disqualify them.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's the direction I am thinking. How much verbal discussion has a person done with experienced programmers if they mispronounce the name of the programming language?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> As long as they know how to optimize a squeal database for a sexy ride. (NB: Wasn't intended to come out _this_ double-entendre-ish)

<comment><AUTHOR> Or clean up their front end with ajax and back end with soap.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It could just be a language issue. I don't believe that it's grounds to deny them a shot at a technical interview, nor do I think it's a reason not to employ them if they pass that interview.

</comment><comment><USER4> Just the email address in caps? I think that's safe enough, could be a convention they fell into. AS long AS he isn't USING caps to emphasize THE wrong WORDS it should be fine.

</comment><comment><USER5> that depends on what kind of developer you´re looking for. if you´re looking for a very experienced pro (which costs you a lot) i doubt those are the right ones.

but if you´re looking for someone who can learn things from your (hopefully) existing team, and who costs you less, you could call them for interviews.

</comment><comment><USER6> How did these people find you?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm a recruiter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> You should be able to evaluate someone's ability to program without ever asking them to write any code, or without them ever having even heard of the language you're going to have them programming in.

I've never met a programming language that I couldn't learn and be competent at in about a week. Everything about programming has nothing to do with particular languages.

The "you need 5 years of java experience" is the kind of requirement that HR robots and hiring managers who aren't programmers look for. They look for someone having already done the job as proof that they can do the job. Yet, someone with 5 years java experience is going to be as good of a C# programmer as they were a Java programmer, even if they've never heard of the language before being hired.

PS- Please don't take this personally, I'm assuming your an engineer, but if you're a designer or marketing guy and are not sure how to hire a programmer, don't take this as derogatory at all. Programming is like driving a car. It is an ability, that is improved with learned skills, but it is not specific to the particular language. IT is like thinking a woman who owns a volkswagon bug can't drive a fiesta because she's got 5 years of "bug experience"

<comment><USER8> I largely agree, competent programmers should be able to pick up new tech/languages/tools fairly quickly....

However i think in order to evaluate someones ability to program, you do need to ask them to program. The language may not matter too much but the ability to think coherently and organize a solution is a skill that can't get easily picked up in a week.

<comment><USER7> If you ask them to write code on a whiteboard you are testing their ability to work while nervous without their common tools handy... when left with someone staring at them silently and expectantly.

I have had great success determining the quality of programmers just by talking to them. I've also found that the job (back when I worked for others) that I got where they asked me to write programs for them turned out to be the most crappy, poorly run businesses. But the ones that just talked to me, and determined I was a good programmer from that, turned out to be the best.

The very best told me by the end of the interview that they were going to make an offer. (I understand that offers take time to prepare, run by legal or whatever.)

The entire industries recruiting system is completely broken and inefficient.</comment></comment></comment>


We searched for Porn. We found you - <AUTHOR> http://incautious.org/

<comment><USER2> 5 bucks says that searching for your phone number actually adds you to the list

<comment><USER3> Those were my thoughts too. If you click on the "paintings" tab, they only show you three of them, (not the 100,000 claimed), and it looks like they dressed them up manually.

Also, by paying them 10 Euro to search for your phone number, you've already self-identified as a sucker, so the unscrupulous people running this site will I'm sure be happy to take advantage of that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the primary point of this site is not to blackmail or make money, but make a point; 'art'. I don't see any of the offerings appealing to anyone (while they'll take your money, i'm not sure they are intended to), and the charge to search the database serves as a privacy guard (which isn't present on equally-functional google).

About artIsOpenSource;

AOS, Art is Open Source, is an international informal network exploring the mutation of human beings with the wide and ubiquitous accessibility and availability of digital technologies and networks. We move across arts and sciences, using technology, communication, performance, art and design, to instantiate emotional actions and processes that are able to expose the dynamics of our contemporary world. We do this in academic, artistic, business and activist domains and, actually, we are focused on moving fluidly among each of these spaces.

<comment><USER5> If this is art, and "Art is Open Source", then I want to see some damn source code. Either that or something to reassure me that this isn't somebody co- opting positive terms like "art" and "open source" to add an air of legitimacy to what looks a lot like a very seedy act of passive mass blackmail.

<comment><USER6> I think you're missing the "point". I doubt that they are actually trying to blackmail anyone.

Hell I would be surprised if there is even a database.

I think they built a polished site around a theoretical concept in order to provoke an emotional response.

It would appear that they have succeeded.

Of course, this is simply my interpretation.

If they really are trying to build a business around distributed extortion, this is not a sustainable MVP.

<comment><USER7> I'm going to murder your family.

Don't worry, I'm probably just provoking a response from you, but to be sure, you can send me $1,000 and I promise I won't murder you, if I was going to.

<comment><USER6> you know, i wrote a slightly sarcastic response to this, but then i deleted it because i can't be sure you're not serious. now i'm seriously considering calling the police, just to make sure you're not actually a crazy person. i'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but i am sure there's a more effective way to make it.

<comment><USER8>
        i can't be sure you're not serious

really?

...

<comment><USER6> can you?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm more curious who actually buys these as paintings. Because it's kind of like a reverse version of those Who's Who scam's: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_Who_scam>

And the point there is you're an idiot if you buy a membership to be listed because nobody else is buying it. Except here you'd only pay to be removed if you thoughts thousands of people were buying the "paintings."

<comment><USER10> Your link is broken.[0]

Heres a working one:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_Who_scam>

[0]: At the time of writing.

<comment><USER9> Thanks, I didn't realize HN was removing the single quote.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wanna call shenanigans but it goes to paypal... Also 10 euro to search the database and 1000 to remove someone? This is possibly the best blackmail scam ever, even better is to post a friend's number to a porn site with some deliciously scandalous line and hope they find it.

<comment><USER12> The best/worst part about this is that spending 1000 euros doesn't remove the comment from the internet, it just removes it from the little private list they have. But that's not publicly visible because they're charging 10 euros to check if your number is in this list, so paying 1000 euros essentially gets you nothing. As poor of a "scam" as this is, I'd bet somebody out there has already paid 1000 to remove it from their list.

Despite what all of those reputation management services promise you, I don't think that you can remove stuff from online like this. Between normal social networks where people post private information unaware of what they are doing, things like <http://www.dirtyphonebook.com> that are designed to destroy privacy, and Google caching everything and making it permanently available for anybody in search, you really have to be smart about what you put online before you put it online. Personally I'd recommend giving up on social networks altogether and just using throwaway accounts and pseudonames, but thats just my personal thing.

<comment><USER13> This is the tip of the iceberg. My mode of operation is to assume that anything I post on the internet will eventually if not immediately become public. And remember it stays there forever. I think a lot of people who are in their 20s now will learn this to their dismay when they try to do something like run for public office in another 10 or 20 years time and everything they posted on social networks while they were in college comes back to haunt them.

<comment><USER14> The issue of running for public office comes up a lot, but what about kids seeing all of their parents social network activity 20-30 years down the line?

<comment><USER15> > EWww, people used to be HETEROsexual?

There is actually a short sci-fi story about a future where homosexual relationships are the norm and people are grown artificially. I can't remember the title or author and apart from the premise, there wasn't anything interesting in it.

<comment><USER16> Possibly you're thinking of The Forever War by Joe Haldeman (<http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21611.The_Forever_War>)?

<comment><USER17> almost certainly not - that's a novel, and one of the all time greats of the genre.

<comment><USER18> Yes, but aside from the word 'short', it fits perfectly. If parent can't remember any details, it's possible they misremembered the length.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Funny that so many are taking this so seriously. I thought it was a brilliant reflection on Internet privacy.

<comment><USER20> Yes! The whole point is listed in the About section:

"After all, just like they say at Facebook, Google, Twitter, Instagram and all the other social networks whenever they sell your profile hundreds of times each day: It's only business!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Best line: "After all, just like they say at Facebook, Google, Twitter, Instagram and all the other social networks whenever they sell your profile hundreds of times each day: It's only business!"

</comment><comment><USER21> Constructive criticism: When people want to buy a painting, have them pay the $50 upfront to look through the database of available comments minus the phone numbers and let them choose the comment they want printed to canvas as art.

Aside from that, I don't understand what there is to be upset about. First off, who cares if someone has your number on their physical wall? If you posted your phone number to a public site, it will receive a lot more exposure there than hanging on some persons wall. Also, they claim to only produce one piece of art per comment so really they are only adding one more venue for viewing the number to an infinite amount of exposure via the web. And most likely, the people that the phone number is being publicly displayed to on porn sites are the people you wouldn't want to have your number. So how about... if you don't want people to have free access to your number in connection with some dirty thing you said online, don't post your flipping number on a porn site with your dirty comment, you silly goose!

With regard to this being extortion, the "erase a number from our database for 1000€" thing is a joke, whether intentional or not. The certificate of Unicity (the hell?) stipulates that they will sell a painting of your number only once. So if somebody ever buys a painting with the number: they just erased your number from the database. And if I plug the number of comments in their database, the number of people willing to buy one of these painting, and the number of places you and all of your aquaintences go that might publicly display the art in to my handy probability calculator, the odds that you or anyone you know would ever see the painting containing your phone number are 25 jagillion to 1. Not to mention that if you live in the US or anywhere outside of Italy really, the cost of shipping a 70x100cm canvas would be prohibitively expensive for many. So the only people being extorted are going to be the extremely gullible.

Anyway, it's time to get off the computer and party like an Irishman. Happy St. Patrick's Day.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> After doing a WHOIS and looking at the links in the site looks like an art initiative from a (not so smart, name and phone number are in the WHOIS) Italian guy.

<comment><USER22> They aren't exactly hiding that: <http://www.artisopensource.net/#team>

<comment><AUTHOR> Nice haircuts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Sounds straight up illegal to me

<comment><USER13> What laws do you think it violates?

<comment><USER23> Blackmail, extortion, defamation, libel

How would they proof that the original comment wasn't libel? I doubt the have cross refrenced commenters IP addresses with the numbers listed. And if you relay libel (especially with malicious intent) it is still libel or maybe even blackmail.

<comment><USER24> What if their database is empty?

<comment><USER25> Well, then charging $10 to view it would clearly match the definition of fraud.

<comment><USER24> Yes, but it's hard to prove. And they could stuff it with a few fake numbers so it's not technically empty.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I would accept this as artistic expression if and only if they don't actually accept any money. If they wanted to make a statement about internet privacy then they chose the douchiest possible way of going about it.

</comment><comment><USER27> These guys are going to be sued out of business, or worse..

<comment><USER28> expelled!

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Seems to be similar to the "Remove Your Mugshot" scams that are floating around online.

</comment><comment><USER30> What about people who frequently leave their neighbour's/coworker's/ex partner's/employer's/... phone numbers on porn sites?

<comment><USER26> People do that frequently?

<comment><USER30> Well, most people do it only one or two times. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> If someone did pay the €10 or the €1000, I'm pretty sure they would get a _very_ memorable and expensive lesson in online privacy.

I just hope that that's what this is about and not just a get-rich-quick scheme. That would be just sad...

</comment><comment><USER32> I wonder how many people's ISPs are still inserting their mobile numbers into the HTTP request headers? (remember <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3508857> ?)

</comment><comment><USER33> Read the rationale from the authors:

[http://www.artisopensource.net/2013/03/17/incautious- porn-a-...](http://www.artisopensource.net/2013/03/17/incautious-porn-a- voyage-into-privacy/)

</comment><comment><USER34> At times like these I feel the urge to check that my passport is still valid.

</comment><comment><USER35> I really want one of these paintings now. I wonder if I can get the exclusive distribution rights to sell them in Brooklyn and the Mission district. I'd be willing to bet they'd sell like hotcakes

</comment><comment><USER36> Is this satirical? Or are they seriously trying to blackmail people

<comment><AUTHOR> Looks like "art" that want you to think about your online privacy

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is a totally brilliant way of illustrating the cost of social media. It's interesting how many people are calling this blackmail and completely missing the point.

</comment><comment><USER38> Reminds me of SafeShepherd since they delete data like this. The data brokers still have the data, it's not like they're going to remove it from their system.

</comment><comment><USER39> Extortion. How lame.

</comment><comment><USER40> This is amazing! Ahahahah, very good.

</comment><comment><USER41> Awesome ... but if I'm so stupid to left my acutal phone then I deserve public Ludibrium :)

</comment><comment><USER42> Extortion is always a solid business plan.

</comment><comment><USER10> How do you certify a screenshot?

</comment><comment><USER43> What a bunch of pricks.

</comment><comment><USER44> Blackmail. Moving on.

</comment><comment><USER45> up there with the mugshot sites and their paid removal.

</comment><comment><USER46> Uh, extortion.

</comment><comment><USER47> i don't think this is legal

</comment><comment><USER48> XD

</comment><comment><USER7> Alright, so I wanted to see how this played out. So I paid to see if my number was in the "database". I got to the checkout, paid, and dead ended.

No return link, no anything. No instructions on the site how to continue.

So, for anyone else wondering, that's what happens when you search.

<comment><USER49> Scams like this are the source of my support for vigilante justice.

I hope that whomever just scammed you out of ten euros gets swift, repeated hits to the knees by baseball bats.

<comment><USER50> People like you are the reason we need the rule of law. I am not defending the scammers, but vigilantes are insidious. You may claim you were being ironic, but a mob with its passion inflamed by a sense of righteousness has no time for subtlety. Please tone it down before innocent people get hurt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I'd like to see the Ven diagram of people who post their cell phone number and porn sites... cross.... people who will ever stumble across this site, let alone pay 10 euro to search, let alone pay 1000 euro to remove their name/number.

<comment><USER52> For €1000 I would have expected them to include at least one kitten in a bottle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Isn't this direct blackmailing?

<comment><AUTHOR> Seems so. (this is not a service of mine, I've found it on the Internet)

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> conceptual stuff, nice.

a note: this idea of buying paintings of porn comments actually seems pretty good(despite the phone numbers part), I mean, it makes a good gag gift... I know plenty of people who would gift this type of thing and some that would actually put it on their walls, given it's not absolutely gross...

\- what the hell is this on your wall? \- internet comments art. \- :¬| ... :¬o cool</comment>