"Thank You" in Hindi and English Mean Very Different Things - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/thank-you-culture-india-america/395069/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> As a non-American, this was one of the biggest culture shocks I faced. On the surface, relationships in the US seem very transactional (not making the judgment that they are really transactional). For example, in the US a son would thank his parents for paying his college tuition. In my culture, this would be insulting because it would suggest being distant from family, in the sense that the son ought to believe his parents wealth is his also, and later willingly contribute his earnings when his parents need anything. It is a difference in the degree to which individualism is the norm.

Reminds of the book "Debt" by David Graeber. He talks about how many cultures have systems where everyone is indebted to their family and community, and this debt is never to be settled. To want to settle a debt (or to even calculate it) would indicate that a relationship has ended. So it is a huge culture shock to see the degree to which calculation plays a part in US relationships (like Sheryl Sandberg precisely splitting domestic chores with her husband 50:50).

I have a feeling that the non-American system is better because it fosters closer family ties, but that might just be because that's the system I'm familiar with.

<comment><USER3> >> In my culture, this would be insulting because it would suggest being distant from family, in the sense that the son ought to believe his parents wealth is his also, and later willingly contribute his earnings when his parents need anything. It is a difference in the degree to which individualism is the norm.

This is very interesting, and brings to mind something I've been struggling with recently (I'm USA-ian by the way). As a father I want to instill in my children a sense of self reliance, a sense that they can go into the world and make their own way, and be successful, without my help. In my world view, that is the best gift I can give them.

I personally come from a background of rural poverty, my parents weren't able to help me at all financially, but growing up working shoulder to shoulder with my father on the (meager) family farm taught me the value of hard work and thrift. Which I think have served me well (I am clearly biased).

So, from that angle, I don't want my children to see my wealth as their wealth, or my success as their success. I would like them to view my success as the result of hard work and perseverance, and an example of what they can achieve, indeed, they can achieve more.

I post this merely as an example of my thought process, which is evolving. I can see how there is value in what you relate here. So thanks to you in a non- distancing sense :)

<comment><USER2> Hah, you're welcome. This is really interesting because it raises the question: what role does affluence have to play in all of this?

In the case of my country, people usually aren't rich enough to save for retirement, nor are starting salaries high enough for young adults to stake out on their own. So parents help their kids right up to the point they can no longer work, and then kids take over to provide for the family.

In case of you being affluent (as in with a completely well-funded retirement), I can totally see why you'd want your kids to not see your wealth as theirs. It might ruin their incentives to be productive citizens.

So, does affluence naturally lead to a weakening of strong family ties? Dunno.

<comment><USER4> I think we need to have a better idea what's meant by "family ties". I'm from the US. My teammate on a project is a woman from India. (We're both working in the US.) She doesn't have children, but I have a 9yo daughter. We talk about differences in how my wife and I raise our daughter versus how she was raised. My wife and I follow the trend in the US of being very involved in our daughter's life. We walk her to school, volunteer for her softball and basketball leagues, and play key roles in the PTA. I stepped back my software engineering career so that I can pick her up a few days a week from school and either hang out, setup a play date, or bring her to an activity. (As an aside, because I'm part-time employed now, I assumed more of the household tasks. There seems to be a trend in this direction in the US for men.)

In my teammate's experience, parents in India tend to be more hands off and let their kids develop independence earlier. Parents focus more on career. Grandparents are more involved with caring for the children while parents work. Despite the more hands off approach, my teammate misses her parents greatly and was very sad and worried when her father was ill recently.

The parenting approaches are different, but the ephemeral "family tie" seems to be present in both situations.

<comment><USER5> Articles like this make me think the Indian way is better:

[http://aeon.co/magazine/culture/children-today-are- suffering...](http://aeon.co/magazine/culture/children-today-are-suffering-a- severe-deficit-of-play/)

I'm about to have a kid (wife is 8 months pregnant) so I've been thinking about this some. Unfortunately though, a lot of this is culture and individual parents can't necessarily do a lot. It doesn't matter if I'd rather my kid play in a pick-up game instead of an organized league if all the other kids in the neighborhood are only in leagues.

<comment><USER6> That is an interesting article but I don't think they do it any better in India. In India there is even more emphasis on memorizing things. In India academics are probably over emphasized.

<comment><USER5> _shrug_

I really have no idea. Was just responding to the parent comment which said: "In my teammate's experience, parents in India tend to be more hands off and let their kids develop independence earlier."

<comment><USER6> I have Indian from the US but have spent time in India. I think its the opposite, but as you said _shrug_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Perhaps he doesn't understand that "thank you" is usually meant as a simple, polite acknowledgement. A heartfelt expression of gratitude in English is said not with a stock phrase, but by stopping, looking at the person, and explaining your gratitude to them.

He is confusing our stock phrase with something that is an entirely different concept.

<comment><USER7> If I may extend my own post for a moment, this is a common problem of trying to translate words & phrases directly.

For example, most people know that "Arigato" is Japanese for "Thank you". Except that's really wrong. Arigato is inappropriate in most cases, and "Sumasen" or variations should be used. But if you tried to translate them via the dictionary, you'd be quite confused as arigato comes from "thank" and su(mi)masen from "to finish".

You can't just say "This equals this" when you work in another language or culture. You have to learn the native meaning itself.

<comment><USER8> May I know your source for this?

Arigatou pretty much just means "Thank you".

Arigatou - "Thank you" Sumimasen - "Excuse me" or a milder version of "sorry" Gomennasai - "Sorry"

If I help my Japanese roommate grab some stuff from the convenience store, he says arigatou. If he wants to really be polite he could add on "suman, meiwaku kaketa." (sorry for troubling you)

I'm not arguing against the fact that we shouldn't do literal translations between cultures, but more that you're giving misleading ideas on Japanese language.

If someone holds the door for you, or brings you a napkin, you can pretty much just say "arigatou". They will most probably just reply, "iie".

Source: JLPT N1 and member of a Japanese Teamspeak game clan for 7 years now.

<comment><USER7> My "source" is 13 years in Japan living with Japanese wife, children & extended family :-)

But I'm not going to argue - for example, it may just be that here in Kansai we use them differently. We would definitely say "sumasen" for the things you listed. Just shows how hard it is to get this down from textbooks.

<comment><USER9> I'm surprised you didn't mention the less formal Kansai local term: "oh-KIni" おおきに: It is also used as "Thank you" in casual situations, but my understanding is that it is literally "Excuse me".

So much of proper speech is dependent on who you are with and their preferred idom. Of course formality in the case of uncertainty is usually preferred, but that can lead to both humor and embarrassment.

<comment><USER10> 大きに (おおきに) is interestingly an abbreviated form of... 大きにありがとう (ookini arigatou), in which 大きに just means the same as とても (totemo), so "very". The equivalent in english would be to say "very much" instead of "Thank you very much".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> As an English speaker, I agree with others above that this article misses a huge point about our language.

Yes we use thank you a lot, even for some things people may consider 'trite'. I'm from the UK so I use it a HELL of a lot.

But I want to call out 2 points based on this:

1\. As mentioned above, just thanking someone can turn their day around, and most times I feel rude if I do not say it (that is my cultural upbringing).

2\. For me/the English culture, it is a multi-faceted word. It can be used in everyday scenarios, or it can be used in deeply emotional ones.

The article doesn't seem to acknowledge this, so perhaps the OP hasn't truly grasped the intricacies of the language.

As an aside, I did find the information about the attitude towards 'thanks' in Hindi really interesting. Thanks!*

*sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

<comment><USER12> Are you being slightly passive-aggressive? That's what I understand if I see "Thanks" instead of "Many thanks!"

<comment><USER13> You see "Thanks" as passive-aggressive? To me it reads as a very straightforward statement that communicates a moderate level of real gratitude.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I say thank you often, and every single time it's because I feel gratitude. This guy is doing it wrong.

> After moving to America, it took me several years to say thanks to people > without actually meaning it. Putting "thank you" on the tip of my tongue, > ready to escape at a moment's notice, rather than extracting it from the > depths of my heart, was one of the hardest language lessons I had to learn > in the United States.

<comment><USER15> You feel gratitude when you receive change from the shop clerk and say "thanks, bye"?

I guess the word "gratitude" is routinely badly translated, too, in that case.

<comment><USER16> > You feel gratitude when you receive change from the shop clerk and say > "thanks, bye"?

I know that many people are saying this robotically, but I personally feel genuinely grateful that the shop clerk has chosen to do this, and that they typically do a good job - providing me with a good level of service that greatly benefits me.

I recognise that it is not a fun job and that clerks often have to suffer poor conditions and that if I had to do that job, I would be mind-numbed with boredom.

So, I look the shop clerk in the eye and give my thanks fully and properly. It's obvious that it's appreciated and it's obvious that few other people are taking any time to genuinely thank shop clerks.

<comment><USER17> _It 's obvious that it's appreciated_

Not around here, it isn't. I tried that three times, giving up after getting a mix of disinterest and hostility.

Which frankly confirms my instincts, I only tried because I've learned not to assume that my preferences match the general public's.

<comment><USER18> > Not around here, it isn't. I tried that three times, giving up after getting > a mix of disinterest and hostility.

Someone physically and/or verbally attacked you for thanking them? That's the only negative outcome that I can imagine, and what I'm reading when you say "hostility."

Lack of interest seems a typical result - are you expecting to be thanked for thanking people? Theoretically, that forms a chain never ends. I thank everyone for everything that they do for me; sometimes they reply with "you're welcome", sometimes our 'thank-you's collide because while I'm thanking them for their service, they're thanking me for my patronage, sometimes I get a smile, often I get no indication that I've said anything.

None of those are failures, because the goal was for me to thank people, not to be praised for thanking people.

<comment><USER17> Let me make myself clear, I always thank people. What I did those days was to be mindful and sincere instead of thanking in auto-pilot.

 _Someone physically and /or verbally attacked you for thanking them? That's the only negative outcome that I can imagine, and what I'm reading when you say "hostility."_

Attack seems too strong, but an hostile tone, yes. More than once.

My goal wasn't to be praised, but I did have a goal of actually causing a positive effect on others; I have no interest in "good deeds" that help no one except the performer to feel proud about himself.

Considering that all signs indicated I was actually bothering people, I stopped, as I think anyone should.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> As an American, I've sometimes been bothered by the use of thank you. It is fine as a pleasantry at a restaurant. But it always felt odd coming from a boss or from the company CEO. I think to myself, "I didn't do this piece of work as a favor to you, I didn't because you are paying me and you told me to do it." It is interesting to read that this view is more common in other cultures. I also dislike putting "thank you" in an email, before they have agreed to do the favor or task. It feels very presumptuous. Am I crazy or do other people feel the same way.

<comment><USER19> I had a manager who made a practice of thanking people when they did things he had asked them to. I hadn't seen it done that assiduously before, and I rather got to like it. I try to do the same now, when appropriate.

I agree, though, that pre-thanking someone _before_ they've done what you ask is presumptuous.

<comment><USER20> That pre-thank may be meant as "thank you for your attention to this matter" vs "thank you for doing the work".

</comment></comment></comment><comment> andrey-p I live in the UK, and whenever I travel back to Bulgaria, I get told off for saying "sorry" and "thank you" all the time.

In Bulgarian, the word for "thank you" is "благодаря" ("blagodarya") but people often fall back to a simple "мерси" ("merci" \- the French word, yes) for transactional thank-yous.

I'm not really sure whether that's because "благодаря" is reserved for sincere, heartfelt thanksgiving or because the word is just too long to say very often.

<comment><USER15> In Polish before 90s the French "pardon" was used for casual "I'm sorry" (for example when you bump into someone) as opposed to native (and more intense) "przepraszam" used when you really mean it.

Since 90s (and all the American movies) most people switched to English "sorry" instead of the French "pardon" for casual "I'm sorry". The original "przepraszam" is still mostly used for more meaningful apologies. And "pardon" is still there if you want to sound old-style casual.

And yes, part of it is - "przepraszam" is longer and sounds more "dignified". The thinking goes "if you're really sorry you should work for it".

<comment><USER21> Funny thing happened to me when I came back to Poland from prolong stay in Italy.

Italy seemed a lot denser to me so I bumped into people a lot. I quickly got habituated to say "scusi" which is Italian quick apology.

There isn't really good formal quick apology in Poland. Pardon or sorry sounds disrespectful if you are apologizing to older person. You need to go with full "przepraszam".

As a Pole you probably know where I'm going with all this...

When I came back to Poland and bumped into older lady in the shop I quickly said "sku..!...przepraszam"

In polish "sku.." is how some of the expletives start.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think it's important to point out that India is very culturally diverse. I have lived in Mumbai for 22 years, and Canada for 8 years. I have said "thank you" to people all my life. I do it consciously and sincerely - cashiers, rickshaw drivers, waiters, friends, peers, everybody. I don't think I've ever offended anybody - at least not that I know of.

With regard to family - neither of my parents' respective families are overtly religious, and neither of them have Hindu or Muslim ancestries. We say thank you to one another all the time. In fact, I can't relate to what the author is saying at all! In the spirit of sharing/learning about new cultures, here's hoping that the 7% of us (7 million people) aren't painted with this broad brush.

<comment><USER23> Who is this 7 million people?

<comment><USER22> Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and "Others" \- since my cultural background is a combination of some of those, I'm fairly confident that the author's perspective does not reflect my community, and likely some of the other minority communities, of which India has 7 million people.

<comment><USER24> And even Hindus.

I grew up in North India and I was taught to say thank you to friends and even to family members e.g., say thank you after being offered snacks (what would be called hors d'oeuvres in the west), offered a chapati or additional daal or sabji during meals, etc.

I did not say thank you to bus or cab drivers, but often did say thank you to shopkeepers.

<comment><USER22> Yes - just to clarify, my intent was to merely hypothesize at the idea that perhaps people ought to proceed with caution whenever some sort of behavior is categorized/stereotyped as "Indian", since in the case of India, even a minority is a very significant number of people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> When I was an English teacher in China, I noticed something similar. Saying "thank you" to friends I made there resulted in a look of confusion, being taken aback, and not quite knowing how to respond. Over time I noticed a pattern and concluded that the interpretation was that friends shouldn't need to say thanks to each other, and saying it turned interaction into something more formal and less friendly.

</comment><comment><USER26> Something I haven't seen anyone bring up is the way that "thank you" or "sorry" are delivered.

I'm not familiar enough with other languages to know if they have similar variances in speech, but in english you can very much change the meaning of your message with the tone of your voice or your rate of speech.

Nearly any phrase can come off as condescending given the right delivery.

<comment><USER27> Thank you _so_ much for raising that point.

I've spoken English since childhood and I've still gotten it wrong. So awkward. "No, wait, that sounded sarcastic. I really meant it! Ok, that didn't sound any better. Let me start over."

<comment><USER28> > Thank you so much for raising that point.

That seems a bit sarcastic ... ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Taught this kind of stuff in India for a while for a company providing phone support. It's not just "thank you", it's also "please" and "sorry" \- both are considered rude/inappropriate outside of certain settings. There's a huge difference in etiquette that is a cause of frustration on phone calls (particularly for support). Both sides are (usually) trying to be polite, but perceive the other side as being very rude. This is one of the main reasons (of about a half a dozen) that cause support calls to go sour.

</comment><comment><USER30> Come to think of it, in India I have almost never really "thanked" many among my family, but have done it for almost everybody else, and often I have found a compliment works in places where a thanks might seem too formal. Saying "I had an amazing time at your place and will miss the food" carries the sense of gratitude without the sense of formality in India.

</comment><comment><USER31> Although not as extreme as in this example, the American custom of saying "thank you" and "please" all the time is considered excessive to the point of being insultingly trite by many cultures.

And I regularly hear Americans complain about people from other cultures being impolite because they don't say "thank you" or "please" all the time.

AFAIK in most cultures these kind of phrases are generally more formal and tend to signal a certain distance that in the wrong context can be interpreted as condescending.

</comment><comment><USER32> In America we are conditioned with a moral duty to be appreciative for what we have and how fortunate we are. It probably stems from the religious nature of some of the early colonies, which religion was Calvinist in nature and big on divine providence, and how it is only by the whim of God that you have a roof over your head, food on the table, a supportive family, etc. We set aside an entire day -- Thanksgiving -- for expressing gratitude and in practical terms that's stretched over a four-day weekend.

</comment><comment><USER33> In Greece, saying "please" can sound condescending. You pretty much want to avoid saying please, and politeness comes from the phrasing. "Can you bring me a glass of water" is the polite version of "bring me a glass of water", although the latter is also usually made polite by adding "re" (to friends) or adding "a bit" ("bring me a glass of water for a bit", it doesn't translate well).

Saying "please" to anyone you're even slightly familiar with would be at least weird, and in many cases condescending and offputting.

"Thanks" is somewhere between the US and India, where you don't thank everyone all the time, but do thank people who've done you a favor, or in service settings, people who have been good to you (good servers/shopkeepers/etc).

<comment><USER34> In spain we have a mix of both; although it is very normal to say it formulaically to e.g. a shop clerk, we are also very often very direct and don't use it, just using tone or phrasing - and foreigners (including spanish- speaking ones) are usually shocked by how rude we seem to be.

<comment><USER33> I've found that Greek translates pretty much exactly to Spanish (culturally and linguistically), so I just say "puedes traerme <x>" or, at most, "quisiera un <x>".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Similar to the cultural difference when Russians do not smile [1].

[1]: [http://www.russianlife.com/blog/why-dont-russians- smile/](http://www.russianlife.com/blog/why-dont-russians-smile/)

</comment><comment><USER36> Over here in Germany we even had an optional 'Cultural differences' workshop you could participate in, which discussed things - both for Germans and for people from the US, the presenter was from the US - that might seem awkward at first.

The ~social fillwords~ were on the list. Lots of thank you / you're welcome plus the really irritating 'How are you?' variations.

Wouldn't you find these differences between any culture though? Is Hindi/Indian vs. English/US especially surprising?

<comment><USER37> > Lots of ... irritating 'How are you?' variations.

Pity that. I frequently ask people "how are you" at the beginning of a conversation, and it's very often ignored on the assumption that i'm using a formula, but i am usually genuinely curious ask to what's up, trying to get them to say something about themselves since the last time we spoke. Pity this idiom has suffered inflation, perhaps i should think of another to replace it.

<comment><USER38> I hate it when people ask "how are you." Because I don't want to drop whatever I'm thinking about and start thinking about what you've asked, which is something that doesn't require any urgent attention.

It's like asking someone to retie their shoes every time you talk to them. So you'll get "I'm fine" because the question is meant to be dismissed quickly, not dwelled upon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> In other news, different cultures are different.

</comment><comment><USER40> "Thank you for coming to my home" actually meant, "It's time for you to get out of my house."

Seriously? Find new friends. When I thank people after hosting an event I do mean to thank them for choosing to spend their time with me. I feel like this post is blently dishonest and caricaturing just to tell a nice story.

<comment><USER41> I think you're reading a bit too much into that. If you're at a social event, when do you hear "Thank you so much for coming" from the host? Usually when you're leaving, or as the writer says, when it's time for you to leave.

<comment><USER40> But usually the host won't say that until the guests have made it clear that they are on their way out.

\- "Honey, we should probably go" \- "Well, thank you both for coming"

I have never attended a social event where the host would say "thank you for coming, see you soon" out of the blue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> There's a similar problem with my native language[1] and "sorry". The standard word, _samaavenna_ literally means "forgive me". As a former British Colony (Sri Lanka) most of us have got used to the English words -- even non-English speakers will automatically say "sorry" or "thank you".

But once "thank you" is said, most people awkwardly respond with "ah", because there's no phrase in the language for "you're welcome".

Come to think of it, we don't even have a universal second person (a "you"). You need to know the social standing of the person before you can address him/her!

[1]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_language)

<comment><USER43> >But once "thank you" is said, most people awkwardly respond with "ah", because there's no phrase in the language for "you're welcome".

In London I've noticed that instead of saying, "you're welcome" people prefer to say "no worries", which is far more casual. I don't know why that phrase started to be used but if I had to give a guess I'd say that it was out of awkwardness because there wasn't a less formal/personal response to use.

<comment><USER42> I've heard Australians say "no worries" (often with a trailing "mate") a lot. I always thought it originated there.

<comment><USER44> As an Australian I can say that "no worries" is very common here (ocker). It has a bit of an ambiguous meaning as it implies that the person saying thank you didn't really need to, but at the same time it is a means of acknowledging that you recognise and appreciate the thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> India is a more hierarchical society in general, and one doesn't feel the need to thank the servile class for services rendered. Outside family and close circle of friends, a "thank you" can lubricate social interactions.

</comment><comment><USER46> In the military you will often hear "Don't thank me. The government thanks me twice a month." So there are parts of american culture where these pleasantries are less common.

<comment><USER17> Twice a month? I assume that's the paycheck, but seems like a weird schedule.

<comment><USER46> I think the standard was to be paid on the 1st and the 15th, but you could opt for one monthly pay check if you had trouble saving for rent with the twice a month schedule.

I never really thought about it. Are weekly or monthly that much more common?

<comment><USER17> I'm not from the US, and I've never heard of anyone paid biweekly, that's why I found it weird.

According to the US Bureau of Labour Statistics, it's actually the most common schedule over there: [http://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-3/how-frequently-do- priva...](http://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-3/how-frequently-do-private- businesses-pay-workers.htm)

<comment><USER47> Out of curiosity, how often is it standard to be paid where you are from?

I've been paid twice monthly, and monthly. I also know of people being paid weekly.

<comment><USER17> Here in Portugal, almost everyone I know is paid monthly. Even the person who comes to my house weekly to clean asks to be paid once a month.

The only people I can think of who have a non-monthly regular pay schedule (not paid per job like freelancers) are door-to-door salespeople and mail ads deliverers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> This is not specific to Hindi speaking people. Even here in South India, Saying you Thank you is usually considered an insult as mentioned in the article.

</comment><comment><USER49> It's about the same in Russia (well, as far as I can tell by looking at my friends and relatives), to the lesser degree perhaps, but the same.

</comment><comment><USER50> This is partly in line with my experiences. It's more subtle than it comes across in the article. I've thanked servers, taxi drivers, and others, but don't recall thanking a bus driver.

I have thanked my parents and they've never had issues. However, in general thanking elders is considered bad form, but asking them or appreciating their blessing isn't. Is that very different?

<comment><USER51> Interesting. It's quite common in Australia to thank the bus drivers.

<comment><USER52> Yeah it might just be a habit, but I say thank-you to heaps of 'service' workers - just a simple 'Thanks mate' when I get off the bus, or get my coffee, etc. Why wouldn't you? I mean, I know it's their job, but you can still be polite about it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> This reminds of what David Graeber said about debt: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs)

He mentions that historically, cultures tried to keep people indebted to each other, and not settle the debt as is in fashion now. The reason was to keep people doing favors to each other.

</comment><comment><USER54> It looks like "shukriyaa" (शुक्रिया) is a way of saying 'thanks' in situations where formality is inappropriate. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[http://wikihow.com/Say-Thank-You-in-Hindi](http://wikihow.com/Say-Thank-You- in-Hindi)

<comment><USER55> Well atleast in Metros even if you are speaking in Hindi, you usually say thank you instead of "shukriyaa".

Pretty much everyone in Indian metro cities understands simple English words like Hi, Hello, OK, Bye, Thank you.

Coming back to your question then yes "shukriyaa" can be used instead of "thanks". "shukriyaa" is less formal than "dhanyavaad"

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> I asked some friends from Indian (Jaipur, Pune, Delhi) and they do not confirm this.

<comment><USER57> It is not exactly a hard and fast rule, its more like a behavioral pattern where you don't thank the people you are really close to for little things. If you say it, you generally say it like you mean it and not for everyday things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> As people say (more eloquently) in the comments, he's just wrong assuming that people in America say "Thank You" just to end a transaction. But it makes for a better narrative, doesn't it?

</comment><comment><USER59> I don't understand the big insight that's supposed to be in this article. About every country uses "thank you" in a different way. Like what, they discovered cultural differences?

</comment><comment><USER60> > "Thank you for coming to my home" actually meant, "It's time for you to get > out of my house."

That's a good observation.

</comment><comment><USER61> Ok! So I was a fool felt happy seeing a "Thankyou" message after every transaction or signup :/

Well, thank you!

</comment><comment><USER62> My two cents:

Usually, acting very polite and formal in informal settings could send the wrong message to people around you from certain cultures as it would be interpreted as the speaker establishing barriers between him/her and the rest and that he/she views them as strangers not as friends which is totally off- putting.

The problem manifests actually in formal settings where some cultures don't have these "lubricants" such as "thanks, please ..etc" in place to ease everyday situations. So, when you expect a simple "thank you" like for helping someone on the street as a small gesture of gratitude towards you and you don't get it, you don't really know exactly if they're being deliberately rude to you and sending their message very clear or they're just being "natural" and "easygoing" i.e. being themselves.

You can't really tell and it's just a reckless form of gambling to take offense at their acts. So, I just give them the benefit of the doubt and assume no malice intended.

Lastly and I speak only from my observations and experiences, some Indians are "obtuse" for the lack of a better word and it seems that most of the social cues that you expect to be interpreted very easily by everyone are completely lost on them but from what I understand now, these people usually come from rural areas and lower socio-economic backgrounds.

So, you basically should not really put too much thought into their processes. That's how they've been raised and therefore are products of their environment. Just move on!

</comment><comment><USER62> Just to add something, in our culture Egyptian that is, we mostly behave and act like Americans when it comes to these forms of courtesy.

We expect people to exchange (Shukran: Thanks), (Afwan: Welcome), (Lao samahet: please) and so on and so forth in these situations and the lack of them in certain contexts could be interpreted by some folks in certain cases as rudeness and hostility shown toward them.

However, we don't take it to the extreme like Americans would usually do and just insert these courteous words in every sentence or interaction as it might be interpreted as a form of snobbery (distancing yourself from people around you) or fake politeness which is not very tasteful.

Anyway, I just got used to the American way when I'm around Americans and honestly if it were to me, I would take excessive courtesy over the lack thereof or plain rudeness any given day but that's just me.

</comment><comment><USER63> I'm from India and I completely get what the author is saying, but why is this article on 'Hacker News'?

<comment><USER57> Hacker News, in spite of the name which implies only content related to programming does have article does are appealing to sensible and curious souls.</comment></comment>


Firefox fork 'Pale Moon' releases v28, first major version since 2016 - <AUTHOR> http://www.palemoon.org/releasenotes.shtml <comment><USER2> As I always do when someone posts a Pale Moon link, I'm going to warn anyone reading this not to use Pale Moon. Details below.

[https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt- use...](https://www.howtogeek.com/335712/update-why-you-shouldnt-use-waterfox- pale-moon-or-basilisk/)

tl;dr Maintaining the security of a browser is a massive job that even a 1000+ developers struggle with. Pale Moon is maintained by one person and does not benefit from hundreds of Firefox's security fixes (because it's a fork).

<comment><USER3> I highly suggest you read through the release notes, and the forum, to get a better understanding of the security of palemoon. Palemoon is updated regularly, including security updates, patches and DiD(Defense in depth) fixes. These are fixes that identify potential problems, and fix them before an exploit has been found.

While Palemoon was forked from firefox, the current codebase isn't stagnant, it is updated quite frequently.

<comment><USER2> There just isn't enough time in a day for a small group of people to keep a browser secure. It's a massive undertaking.

<comment><USER3> OpenBSD is a small group of devs vs. Microsoft, or Linux, yet it is arguably one of those most secure operating systems.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Sony CEO: "If we had gone with Open Technology ... we would have beaten Apple" - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/11/sony-ceo-howard-stringer-if-we-had-gone-with-open-technology-f/

<comment><USER2> Apple was the first mover in this space. The iPod was the first music player to use the 1.8" hard drives that changed music players from being either 128MB flash devices or items too large for one's pocket. Add to that the wheel and you just had a much better device. And others have still yet to match it - even if they're open.

Sure, Sony's backwards approach meant that companies like SanDisk were able to get ahead of them, but their devices just don't have the interface that Apple's iPod has. And Sony has been really old-fashioned in their approach to their devices recently. Where Apple has used new technology to create better interfaces, Sony just hasn't kept up.

The issue today is that no one (except possibly Palm with its soon to be released webOS) has been able to match Apple's interfaces, never mind exceed them. And with Apple's volume, it's hard for a competitor with a poor interface to undercut Apple on price. So you get items like the Dell DJ which costs the same, but isn't as well designed.

For Sony to regain its position in portable electronics, it really needs to figure out the interface that will make people's lives better than Apple's (or at least just as good). Palm might be doing that by equaling Apple's touchscreen design and going a little further with its "cards" metaphor, but that's a bit of hopeful thinking on my part (as much as I like Apple, I like competitive markets even better).

<comment><USER3> For those of us more interested in the quality of the, you know, sound- producing part of the player, Sony has Apple beat.

<comment><USER4> (un)fortunately there are less audiophiles than consumers perfectly happy with 128kb mp3's pumping out of substandard earphones. and as long as that is the case: apple > sony.

<comment><USER5> Or indeed consumers who are perfectly happy with the sound of 210 kb/s VBR mp3s on an iPod through £80 Grado headphones.

I'm not trying to take any side myself here, but it does sound like you're implying that it's the "audiophiles" versus the "mindless masses", when I think you'll find there is also a significant population of people who value good quality sound but who can't necessarily discern any difference in quality between the top brands of mp3 player. I've owned models from three of them, and I certainly can't.

<comment><USER6> Not to want to sound snobbish, but £80 headphones are kind of wasted on mp3s in any case - if you compare listening to an mp3 and the same track on CD (or in a lossless codec such as flac), you'd definitely notice the difference, and appreciate the headphones more.

This being said, I have an iAudio and, using the same headphones, the sound is noticeably better than my girlfriend's (more expensive) iPod.

<comment><USER7> Eh, I listen to live versions of things, mostly—all the quality that's going to be lost was lost _before_ the track was even mastered, so it doesn't matter if it's compressed, really.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The lesson here is simple: leverage pirates to gain critical mass.

YouTube did it. iPods did it. Justin.tv is doing it.

<comment><USER9> Sony could not do this. On one hand there's Sony Electronics willing the pirates to leverage the use of their platform, on the other there's Sony Music willing the pirates to go to jail, on the third side there's a manufacturing department willing to raise the sales of Memory Sticks by locking Sony Electronics' devices from supporting any other media.

And they all are subsidiaries of the same parent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The big downside of any sony player I ever looked at was it always had to convert my mp3's into some other format to work on the players. This took forever and was a hassle.

<comment><USER11> Exactly. Beyond even the file format issues, when will Sony finally stop using MemoryStick media.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> He's been Chairman and CEO since 2005:

<http://www.sony.com/SCA/bios/stringer.shtml>

From the article:

 _We can no longer say that we're right and our customers are wrong. We can't build only what we want to build._

It took 4 years to learn this valuable lesson.

</comment><comment><USER13> Here is a company that clearly never ate their own dog food ...

<comment><USER14> I thought the whole point to a company was to become big enough that you don't have to serve your customers. They _really_ didn't play mp3s?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> He's sort of right. At least they would have been more competitive with apple.

Sony's engineers are good and their design teams have a decent aesthetic sense. Their problem is lethargic and dull management.

I was involved with TWO different companies since 2001 who tried to partner with sony offering exactly what he describes: open standards / open source tools for distributing content to sony devices, and they dropped the ball both times.

<comment><USER16> Sony engineers are good at hardware design. But in software they are poor at best.

Plus, the funny thing about a lot of hardware engineers is that they think they can write software ok. At least software engineers don't pretend to design hardware. So management takes a bunch of firmware engineers and expects them to design great-looking apps. Right.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Interesting that they are currently getting their clock cleaned by Amazon on the ebook reader side of things. The Sony eBook reader has been more open than Amazon's.

</comment><comment><USER18> rubbish.

Apple had style and a slick user interface. AND they used massively restrictive technology until very recently.

Sony made many many errors in the digital market game. Say what you want about Apple they nailed the digital music player market with bullet-like precision.

<comment><USER19> Well, another way to look at it, is using OPEN technologies would have helped competing with a that slicker and more stylish interface

Worst but cheaper or greener can win better but more expensive!

But I don't believe he was aiming at worst, I think he meant or should have meant that by using closed technology he was facing Apple alone, but by using OPEN technologies he would have gathered a crowd and faced Apple with plenty of parties on his side

Its the PC versus Apple all over again. Apple is doing great for now, but eventually a PC-ish ecosystem for the handheld market will make it marginal!

<comment><USER18> Im not convinced that _would_ have helped. A group like you suggest does loosely exist anyway without Sony, and it fails in a similar way - it is lacking is a cheap, sexy content delivery system & an "integrated experience".

Apple has a system from the music distribution right down to the playback device. It's an exercise in consumer manipulation.

Open formats wouldn't have fixed that problem. Look at the other digital music player makers: they suffered the exact same problems. IF Sony had pitched and sold an economic model and open format that worked from the distribution side right down to the player then _maybe_ it would have worked. But they would never have sold that to the media companies and music rights holders. Apple got the mass content it did by using the proprietary format to make the rights holders feel safe. NOW such an open model would work (and Apple are heading that way, right) but Sony are too far behind now for it to be worth the investment.

They messed up, IMO, by trying to compete full stop. Once the Ipod had market traction as an iconic piece of tech they had lost that battle. They should have focused on more niche markets (sports markets for example, or REALLY high end devices etc etc).

EDIT: what you suggest in terms of the PC style eco system potentially might occur. But I highly doubt it for 2 reasons. Firstly because the Ipod has got so much more market traction that Macs ever did. They are the height of cool and _always_ leading the way. Even the awesome might of Google is struggling to beat the Iphone into submission even though it is a technically superior more hackable infrastructure. Secondly because the market isn't as extensive as the PC one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It wasn't the first mover advantage with the 1.8" drives that made Apple win- although that was a necessary ingredient. You can see this because the device didn't get popular right away. It was the second mover advantage of iTunes, which avoided the first mover's problems (Napster) that led to Apple's dominance. Apple went with closed tech on the iTunes store, which combined with device lock in to drive the iPod success. It was as if they had all of the music, and you could only play it on an iPod. They made the player compatible with MP3 (the open part Stringer refers to) so you could use all of your old Napster downloads easily, and made the iTunes client capable of ripping CDs easily. Once they made the iTunes client available for Windows it was off to the races. The iPod is a great design, but on its own, it would not have been dominant.

</comment><comment><USER21> For all the lock-in that everyone claims Apple has. From my experience I had never bought anything from iTunes until just recently. When they finally dropped the DRM on their music I assumed it was safe to proceed. I have had an AppleID since the store opened. Their album covers were consistently the best (other sites have sprung up since then), and stupidly easy to work with (right click, download album art). The majority of my music is Lame encoded MP3, reaching all the way back to 1997, AAC and ALAC for the more recent stuff. My iPods 2G,5G, and Touch, plays everyone of them.

Before this I had a Sony MD player. At one point I really thought MD was the future but Sony kept turning the screws, it was hard to get blank media, and re-encoding my music just killed it for me.

BTW, for AAC, every device I bought in the last 2-3 years supports it. The only exception was Windows OOTB, but that has changed in Windows7.

The last device I own from Sony is the PS3. I really think this is the last stop as far as media is concerned. I've using a mediatank to hold my music and HD movies. It has worked out wonderfully, the PS3 is barely touched. I've unplugged it so I can free up an HDMI port.

</comment><comment><USER22> I don't buy it. This is the guy who pushed crazy DRM and Blu-Ray only Playstation 3 to make his side of business, media, profit while the traditional side of Sony (electronics and gaming) paid for the party. This looks like another of his power plays.

I miss the old Sony.

<comment><USER23> I don't buy it either. Sony Electronics had the ability to beat Apple to the market with a digital walkman but didn't because of the internal debates at Sony about the dangers of MP3s.

Tying PS3 to Blu-Ray did make Blu-Ray win against HD-DVD but lost the real war to XBox 360 & Streaming Media.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Sony is expert at making money from proprietary standards. Will they, as an organization, be able to adapt to all the changes required for making money from open standards? It's a very different ball game.

</comment><comment><USER25> Anyway, they didn't. It's easy to talk after the fact.

</comment><comment><USER26> No way.

Sony's divisions conflict each other (copyright ownership business vs hardware/software product business).

And as another commentor noted, not only are their divisions run with conflicting goals, but they pour ridiculous amounts of energy into trying to create industry standard formats. And, almost every time, failing miserably.

Their hardware is "boutique" -- which means it's coolish, but totally unmaintainable, their software is crap, and their integration is worse.

This guy is just wankin off in public, and telling himself (and everybody else) that if he only bought the better brand of lube, he _could_ have been having sex with a supermodel instead.

The poor suckers have never gotten over the Walkman.</comment>


Looking for a co-founder for awesome mobile app startup - <AUTHOR>

I'm Romil Patel (@RomilPatel) currently looking for a co-founder (CTO) for a mobile app startup.<p>Ideal co-founder will be handling much of the coding, very awesome coder, knowing the iPhone SDK. <comment><USER2> Hi Romil- our new startup will help you find the best co-founder immediately. No need to spend months searching. We expect to have a private beta online within a few weeks and a full version shortly thereafter. We are currently accepting sign-ups for the beta now if you are interested. www.venturocket.com

</comment><comment><USER3> So, do all the work for half the credit? SIGN ME UP!</comment>


Change Your Password to a Pin, Says Microsoft - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2020/04/04/next-windows-10-update-to-recommend-users-change-passwords-for-pins <comment><AUTHOR> I guess this could work but I have lots of questions. What happens when your hardware changes (new RAM, upgraded CPU, etc.)? How would this work with "virtual" desktops (AWS Workspaces, etc.)? Does your Office365 account follow suite or do you continue to use a password there?

I'm all for getting rid of passwords there just seems to be a lot of holes in this abstraction.</comment>


Humans May Evolve To Grow An Endless Supply Of Teeth - <AUTHOR> http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-07/can-humans-grow-endless-supply-teeth

<comment><USER2> It really annoys me the way a lot of people picture evolution. The genetic mutations happen before the need is realized. If mutation helps a species survive in it's environment, the gene is carried on through natural selection.

An endless supply of teeth has no environmental advantage in the modern western world. The loss of an adult set of teeth does not inhibit an individual from eating or mating.

However, it will be interesting to see what genetic mutations carry on in the developing world assuming it never attains a western standard of living.</comment>


Geoff Wozniak: Tinkering with jump tables - <AUTHOR> http://exploring-lisp.blogspot.com/2009/07/tinkering-with-jump-tables.html

<comment><USER2> Unfortunately the numbers are rather misleading here, since the benchmark scaffolding he uses has very different performance characteristics on different implementations. He's passing the symbols naming the functions to test to time-tests, but funcalling symbols (instead of functions) is very expensive on sbcl. So it's pretty much a benchmark of the speed of symbol- function, not of different case implementations :-)

<comment><USER3> Surely that doesn't have any effect on the intra-implementation results. So, for instance, it still seems he's shown that case has O(1) performance on CLISP but some sort of (apparently quite severe) number-of-cases dependence on SBCL and ACL, whereas ncase and switch are pretty much O(1) on all three implementations.

<comment><USER2> When 95% of the runtime is spent in the benchmarking infrastructure rather than the benchmarked code, interpreting even the intra-implementation results is hard. Here's the results I get (benchmark, original, symbol-function lifted out of time-test). Times in milliseconds:

      CASE-10 240 12
      CASE-100 244 52
      CASE-1000 632 432

      NCASE-10 212 20
      NCASE-100 220 24

      SWITCH-10 276 80
      SWITCH-100 272 76
      SWITCH-1000 268 72

For example SWITCH looks a lot more reasonable for a small number of cases with the original benchmark than it does when the benchmarking overhead is reduced.

(Edit: try to reformat the table)

<comment><USER3> I'm assuming those are SBCL numbers, given who's posting them :-). So, it seems to me that these figures confirm that CASE gets expensive for large numbers of cases whereas SWITCH doesn't. (You're missing the NCASE-1000 entry. If it's also quite small then you're also confirming that NCASE doesn't get expensive for large numbers of cases.) Which I thought was the most interesting finding here. You've also confirmed that SWITCH is a bit more expensive than CASE and NCASE except when the former blows up.

However. Geoff Wozniak's results seem to show (1) CASE-100 being more expensive than CASE-10, where you find it costing the same; and (2) CASE-1000 being more expensive than CASE-10 by a much larger factor than you've found. The curious thing here is that a constant extra bogus overhead from an expensive SYMBOL-FUNCTION implementation ought (I'd have thought) to bias his results in the opposite direction to that. Are you and he using different versions of SBCL, or something?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Documentation is freaking awesome - <AUTHOR> http://warpspire.com/talks/documentation/

<comment><USER2> Agreed. I'm currently running a site over at <http://readthedocs.org/> which is meant to be your one-stop shop for Sphinx documentation. It has most of the big python projects on it, and hopefully as sphinx gets more popular, it will attract others as well. For example, we are mirroring the Varnish docs.

We also had a kick-ass designer help us on it, so the site actually looks rather pretty.

I've had a number of people tell me that RTD has been something that has spurred them to write documentation, so I'm really happy with the results thus far.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for this! It is great!!!!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Ok, so I would love to find something like Yard but focused around web service APIs. Anyone know of anything like that?

</comment><comment><USER5> Ok, Rails Guides definitely deserves mention for being one of the _prettiest_ sources of documentation, but I don't know that it really deserves mention as being a great example of good documentation. I mean it isn't bad, but django's documentation beats the pants off of it.

<comment><USER6> I guess without hearing my talk, this might be confusing. Rails Guides is in there as an example of Tutorial type documentation and a way to leverage your project's website.

This presentation was prepared for a Ruby conference, so the examples were geared toward the audience (ruby & rails centric).

More importantly though: When's the last time you used Rails Guides? There was a time when Django's documentation _was_ light years better than anything Rails prepared, but I would very much disagree saying Rails Guides are poor in comparison today.

<comment><USER7> As someone who originally came from python and recently learned rails (well, still in the process) using the official docs and the railsbook I have to say: Sorry but yes, the Rails docs (at least the ones I have found) _are_ poor in comparison.

And it gets only worse when you look beyond Rails; documentation in the ruby realm (gems et al) is almost always lacking in quantity and underwhelming in quality to a former pythonista.

Admittedly it's a bit of an unfair comparison, considering python docs are - on average - the best I've ever seen. And considering python is a bit easier to document formally due to less magic in the language.

But it's also a mindset thing. Python has doc-strings and doc-test baked right into the language. Sphinx and epydoc are so ridiculously good, it's not funny.

On the ruby side documentation seems more like an afterthought. RDoc itself is poorly documented (oh the irony!), and the only tool to bake readable output from it (YARD) is a fairly recent invention. I haven't found an equivalent to sphinx, yet.

The obsession that the python community applies to documentation seems to be spent on testing-tools in the ruby camp. This is, however, a rather unfortunate choice of priorities when you look at the (lack of) documentation for even the most popular testing tools (e.g. RSpec)...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Documentation is freaking awesome, but _executable_ documentation is even more awesome e.g. <http://relishapp.com/rspec></comment>


Where would you look for co-founder? - <AUTHOR> http://www.onfocus.in/startup/view/building-a-startup-is-hard-but-doing-it-alone-is-even-harder-09-27-36 Building a startup is hard but doing it alone is even harder. <comment><USER2> I think it's really hard to trust someone that you don't know!

I would go for a friend or colleague... but never family member :)</comment>


One month of Swift – We ❤ Swift - <AUTHOR> http://www.weheartswift.com/?p=190

<comment><AUTHOR> What do you think is missing from Swift? An AnyFunction type would be great. Also reflection is incomplete and undocumented. Message passing - [http://www.buckleyisms.com/home/2014/6/16/the-case-for- messa...](http://www.buckleyisms.com/home/2014/6/16/the-case-for-message- passing-in-swift.html)</comment>


Ask HN: What's your favourite (reliable) news source? - <AUTHOR> As a new comer, I wish to know reliable sources of news here at HN. I have been taking interest in following trends of software development though I am not a developer but a scientific programmer.
There is already so much at HN that it is hard to keep up. Sometimes, I wish to be ahead of getting these news to earn Karma. I am aware that I can share interesting stuff from my own field, instead of asking for more legitimate sources of news. Even in those cases there are multiple sources of same news, so it becomes difficult to choose the best one. I remember reading in FAQ that I should go after most original news source. But even this can defer.
So I would like to know what are your primary sources of news to stay ahead beside Hacker News, of course.
PS: These news sources can be latest books too. <comment><USER2> Twitter tends to be ahead of HN. The trick is in knowing who to follow. Start out with following a small number, perhaps 10-15 people, who are experts/well known in the fields that interest you.

</comment><comment><USER3> As a scientific programmer do you have any recommendations (books/advices from others) how to manage media bias and how to immune our thinking from fallacy after reading news.

<comment><AUTHOR> I can only recommend what are the most reputed source in Physics nothing more. These are as following:

Physical Review ([http://journals.aps.org/](http://journals.aps.org/))

Nature ([http://www.nature.com/](http://www.nature.com/))

IOP Journal of Physics ([http://iopscience.iop.org/](http://iopscience.iop.org/))

Physics Today (www.physicstoday.org)

First step should be to read review articles and see the trend by looking at number of citations of linked articles before you go in more depth. Google Scholar can be of great help in this regard. Anyway, if you are in the physics community you will who deserve your attention.

To find the books, you can follow Nature. They review new books every week. For example this week's book recommendation can be found here.

[http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v537/n7618/full/537033a...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v537/n7618/full/537033a.html)

I hope it helps.

<comment><USER3> actually my background is engineering physics, those links of course are great sources. But I think my question aren't being clear to you. I asked what is your strategy to avoid media bias and fallacy. In addition to this strategy, do you have any recommended books.

<comment><AUTHOR> The sources I mentioned are the place where people get published. So first strategy is go to skip media and reach out for original sources. I know reading a paper can be a nightmare, so you can read a featured review articles in those journal. For example these articles.

[https://physics.aps.org/synopsis- for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117...](https://physics.aps.org/synopsis- for/10.1103/PhysRevLett.117.151301)

[https://physics.aps.org/articles/v9/111](https://physics.aps.org/articles/v9/111)

If you have hard time picking up which one to read, then you can use number of citations as a measure to decide what deserve your attention. If you stick to your own area of expertise, then you if it is correct or not. You can check educational background and previous work to decide the validity of their present work.

Research done in physics are not personal opinions. Mathematics speaks for itself. So I don't think that you will ever encounter media bias if you stick to reputed people from reputed journal.

As per finding book recommendations, you can refer back to your current or favorite textbooks to find what those author ask you to read further. You can watch public lectures of your favorite physicist or visit their website to find out their recommendations. Feynman Lectures is the most popular book among new comers of physics students. So I am assuming you know about it. He has given several book recommendation in between the book.

[http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu](http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu)

Another approach for validity of article it to refer to comment section and evaluate how heated or constructive is the debate following the article. Look for previous article by same author to see if he just expresses controversial to have more clicks.

For long time, I have been following this list for book recommendation. Inside these books have recommendation for my next book. [http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Administrivia/booklist...](http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Administrivia/booklist.html)

Since you ask for my personal opinion, so I would recommend reading this book. And you know what it is freely hosted on MIT website. It is What is life by Erwin Schrödinger.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Life%3F)

[http://web.mit.edu/philosophy/religionandscience/mindandmatt...](http://web.mit.edu/philosophy/religionandscience/mindandmatter.pdf)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to build server-less applications for Mist - <AUTHOR> https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/12/build-server-less-applications-mist/ <comment><USER2> I haven't played with this too much, but does Mist need a local copy of the entire blockchain? If so, I'm not sure these decentralized applications will be accessible to the average user. On the other hand, the application in the tutorial directly deals with Ether so the user may already have a fully validating node. Are decentralized apps created on Ethereum intended to always involve Ether? I suppose Ether is used to reward the miners for hosting the application?

<comment><USER3> For now Mist requires a full blockchain but we already started testing a light-client on the node that would avoid that.

Not all app need to show ether to the user, but that is the currency used to pay miners for transaction fees. There are ways in which the app developer can try to abstract the concept of ether using other currency, or even subsidising the users by paying their cost via other means (like what digix gold does).

Ether is not used as a reward for hosting the app, but for changing saving data and changing states on the blockchain. We will have a P2P solution where users are paid to host actual application files.

<comment><USER2> As mentioned in the article, would that P2P solution be Swarm ([http://swarm- gateways.net/bzz:/a600d48f01d5e6d07907d9d14db0f...](http://swarm- gateways.net/bzz:/a600d48f01d5e6d07907d9d14db0ff205624caf0570d0c2601cdb80c9767bcb9/index.html))?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I briefly read that as Myst, and was very intrigued.

<comment><AUTHOR> I posted it as "How to build server-less applications for Ethereum" because I assume most people don't know what Mist is. But someone changed it back to Mist.

<comment><USER3> I used Mist as the title because it's an ethereum blog, but you had a good point when using it for other contexts</comment></comment></comment>


Apple's Tribute to Jerome B. York  - <AUTHOR> http://www.apple.com/#tribute <comment><USER2> Few corporations would have the guts to do the same. They are essentially trading money to pay homage to a member of the team. For this, they deserve a lot of respect.

<comment><USER3> _Apple's goal isn't to make money. Our goal is to design and develop and bring to market good products. We trust as a consequence of that, people will like them, and as another consequence we'll make some money. But we're really clear about what our goals are._

Jonathan Ive, SVP Industrial Design at Apple

<comment><USER4> If you want to able to design and develop good products you need to be vigilant with your money. What good is all that enthusiasm if you have no money to do all the developing and designing?

So thinking that Apple would spend money in a random and irrational manner even if this statement is completely true and the mantra every Apple employee says to herself or himself every morning is probably a bad assumption.

(I think that Apple's frontpage doesn't make them all that much money. I bet that if those who decided on doing this today were teleported to similar positions of responsibility within amazon they wouldn't have done it. It still is a nice thing to do. You don't even have to be all cynical about that, I certainly don't want to. Apple is just the kind of company which – and that's indeed pretty unique – can do stuff like that. They probably consciously made themselves into that kind of company.)

<comment><USER5> _I bet that if those who decided on doing this today were teleported to similar positions of responsibility within amazon they wouldn't have done it._

Then you don't know Apple all that well.

You're conflating money with opportunity cost. Apple operates with blatant disregard for incremental opportunity cost, because they believe that the greatest opportunity cost is the cost of doing something you don't believe in...

<comment><USER6> That's so well put and relevant to more than just Apple I wrote it down.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Very respectable that apple would change their whole homepage to pay tribute to someone they care deeply about passing away. Image how much money they are losing by not promoting their new products such as the iPad.

<comment><USER8> I doubt they are losing that much money. I'm not at all trying to detract from the sadness of such a loss, but there are links on the top that people can use, not to mention direct links from search engines taking them directly to where they need to go.

<comment><USER9> Don't doubt it, they are losing a significant portion of revenue-generating space on a commercial website in order to pay tribute to a fallen friend.

<comment><USER10> How about all the publicity they got from it for free? I'm sure visits to apple.com got a big bump today thanks to that. Apple.com is on the frontpage of every social sites right now (reddit, digg, hn etc).

<comment><USER9> Even with added traffic, the conversion rate (visitors/buyers) given the tribute and no products on the front page has to be extremely low. Low enough that I tend to believe they are losing money for the sake of this.

<comment><USER10> Apple is a company that has billions in cash. Any amount of money lost because of this won't do anything to their bottom line, something like 0.01% maybe less. The amount of free publicity and props they got from that action however are worth millions, I mean, just read what people are saying on this thread, they're all praising apple. How much do you think that's worth as publicity?

<comment><USER11> 0.01% of billions is a lot of money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Jerome York is a great businessman to study. He was involved in some really fascinating turnarounds. After all, most businesses run into a few bumps along the way.

I think one of the more interesting ones was with GM, in 2006. Kirk Kerkorian had taken a stake in GM and asked York to be his advisor on the situation. York gave GM some frank news: they needed to be put into crisis mode, sell off Saab and Hummer, cut their dividend, and adopt meaningful restructuring goals a la Carlos Ghosn at Nissan.

Now -- GM rejected practically all of these.

They bought out some employees, yes. But they kept Hummer and Saab, when they should have sold them at peak earnings. Now they are trying to sell them at trough earnings to no avail. The dividend was kept in place and as a result, cash exited the business when it could have been used to pay down on debt. Then, on July 10, 2009, General Motors filed for bankruptcy.

</comment><comment><USER13> This is incredible. The last time I remember them doing something like this was during the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami.

Oh, and in 2005: Rosa Parks. [http://theappleblog.com/2005/10/26/think- different-rosa-park...](http://theappleblog.com/2005/10/26/think-different- rosa-parks/)

<comment><USER14> They did it for Al Gore too when he got one a Nobel - [http://db.tidbits.com/resources/2007-10/Gore-on- apple.com.pn...](http://db.tidbits.com/resources/2007-10/Gore-on- apple.com.png)

<comment><USER15> Did they also remove the bottom 3 ads for those? I thought they just changed the center image.

<comment><USER16> Pretty sure they did for some, at least: I specifically remember thinking "wow, they even took down the little 'ads', too". Not sure which, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "I'm Feeling Lucky" costs Google a lot of money too: [http://hubpages.com/hub/Im-feeling-lucky-button-costs- Google...](http://hubpages.com/hub/Im-feeling-lucky-button-costs- Google-110-million-per-year)

</comment><comment><USER18> Really classy

</comment><comment><USER19> What was this man's role at Apple? The wiki doesn't say much.

</comment><comment><USER20> whats the big deal? They didnt shut down the apple store. Its just the homepage....</comment>


Ask HN: Are good jobs a myth? - <AUTHOR> Does anyone actually have a job they don't hate? And how did you get it?
I am about to start the last year of my degree in Computer Engineering. A lot of the career advice I see on HN seems to be about avoiding getting scammed by some MBA type working for a destined to fail startup. Which seems like good advice. But my experience in internships with large, generously compensating corporations has largely been one of soul crushing bureaucracy and mind numbing boredom. Is there a sane middle ground? With comfortable living quality and interesting work?
Who has a "good" job, and how did you get it? @patio11 talks about most good jobs not being advertised. But that's kind of a chicken/egg situation for new grads without networks. Especially those of us from cities with less dynamic hiring situations.
School seems like a clear system. I get a syllabus, I know how I'm being scored and get constant feedback.  My internship hunt was a total black box. Cast resumes out into the void, and hope you at least get a rejection letter.
I don't want to sound like some entitled millennial, but I've worked hard in school. I've maintained a good GPA at a tough engineering school. Sometimes I juggled full time classes and part time internships. Comparing against the only metric I have (my peers), I'm a good candidate.
I managed to scrounge up a single offer. I accepted this internship by default, and I absolutely hate it. I'm terrified the same thing will happen when it's time for full time career hunting.
This is the first time in my short life I've been more scared than excited for the future. I could use some words of wisdom. <comment><USER2> I actually really enjoyed my job at Google. Stayed there for 5+ years. I got it through really knowing Javascript well right when it was becoming hot in 2008, really knowing my CS algorithms and being able to think on my feet, and through having a friend that could refer me. Mostly the Javascript and algorithms though, I think.

If I were to give some advice, it would probably be to focus on the _craft_ rather than on the _job_. Work to become the best engineer you can, and treat each job as an opportunity to gain more experience doing that. The jobs will come naturally, once you've gotten the first couple to take a chance on you.

<comment><USER3> Hello Jonathan , I am trying for job at google but I haven't received any response. Would it be possible for you to refer me if I send you my resume ? Although , I haven't worked for very high profile companies like FB, Twitter , I am good at what I do. I would really appreciate your help if you can.

<comment><USER2> I don't work at Google anymore, so no, it's not possible for me to refer you.

<comment><USER3> thanks for replying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> To the good advice on this thread, let me add:

You need to think about your objectives for the jobs you're considering.

The idea that you're going to leave school and fall into the perfect job is, if you think about it for a moment, kind of silly.

For most of us, it takes several jobs --- each eating as many as a couple years of our lives --- to figure out exactly where our careers are taking us, and what kinds of roles we should be occupying.

What is it you want to learn to do? What career problem do you want to start on first? Think about it like a role playing game character sheet, but instead of "Charisma" and "Constitution", you have "Earning Potential" and "Responsibility" and "Technical Skills" and "Business Skills" and the like. You get a certain number of points to spend each (serious) job you take. Have you thought about which stats you want to boost?

</comment><comment><USER5> College students are almost never taught the art of marketing themselves and finding good work.

You'll have to hack your own path. Here's a good read on getting your Elevator Pitch right, Prospecting, Networking, and Over-coming Objections > [http://www.amazon.com/Little-Red-Book-Selling- Principles/pro...](http://www.amazon.com/Little-Red-Book-Selling- Principles/product- reviews/1885167601/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_five?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addFiveStar&showViewpoints=0)

<comment><AUTHOR> I've thought about that. That getting hired is basically just a sales problem.

They don't just not teach it, they teach engineers to be actively hostile to it.

<comment><USER5> The inability sell/market/present yourself to potential buyers (employers) will undermine your talents & skills every time. It's a shame more techies don't get that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Good" means two different things:

(1) secure, with good pay and benefits and (2) something you enjoy doing or at least not hate

My wife has a "good" job in the sense of (2). She's self employed teaching children to ride horses. In terms of (1) she could certainly get better benefits but not better security or pay doing anything she is qualified to do.

The economy is fundamentally opposed to (1), particularly the security part. The only realistic retirement plans today are to be a government worker or to start a corporation that goes public or otherwise gets sold. As time goes by voters are going to taste the blood of both of those populations.

As for (2) it is a challenge too that you're going to have to work hard at.

</comment><comment><USER7> Finally, something I can answer!

Credentials: I've had a multi-decade unbroken streak of jobs where I looked forward to going to work every morning. I've also never worked on anything but new products.

Here are my "Secrets to Developer Job Happiness":

 _Work for a small or tiny company that makes money with the software you create._ If you can't work for a tiny company, work for a tiny team.

 _Don 't work for asshats._ Ask around. If it's a big company, look on Glassdoor. A job interview is a date - remember to interview the company right back. Try to talk to the people you'll be working with. Are they trying to see if you're a good fit or are they more interested in trying to prove that they are smarter than you are?

 _Don 't be afraid to ask (seemingly) stupid questions._ A lot of your colleagues will be afraid to admit they don't understand something (esp. in meetings). Don't think that just because no one else asks the "stupid" question, that you are the only one who doesn't understand. Fear of looking stupid interferes with communication and forward progress. Once you say: "I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but could you explain that part about the chromatic aberration but slower this time?" You _are_ stupid. Get used to it. ;-)

</comment><comment><USER8> I have a job I really enjoy, and yes a lot of luck was involved. I have a bachelor in bioinformatics, and in my 3rd year I organised the first meetup for all such students in the Netherlands. At the same time with NBIC days (a bigger bioinformatics conference in the Netherlands), to which we got free access. I was very lucky to see a presentation about using data-mining to predict protein functions by my future internship supervisor, who was only there because her boss could not make it.

I then wrote an e-mail to her and that data-mining team, after reading all public papers, and figuring out where I could try to help. In this case I a) complimented them on their work b) showed I was enthusiastic and c) came with ideas on what I could contribute. So they offered an internship, which I loved. They where cutting edge with large scale data-mining over complicated data using the then just new java 1.5 on varied hardware and infrastructure. i.e. hibernate when it was still cool, K/V stores and lucene together with lots of classical datamining algo's such as C4.5 and SVMs on large clusters. (Sure my final report could have been better)

Came back to finish my Uni, graduated while working for a year on GPU computing (using BrookGPU) to get protein domain detecting working for some comparative potato genomics work. Which I loved as well.

Then I joined a large IT firm as a trainee for 1 month and then 9 months on one of the more interesting government IT projects dealing with tracking health of children. Funnily enough I went to industry to learn how to run a project, and ended up on one which looked like the ObamaCare roll out in the small :( So I quickly started looking around.

My internship group offered me a position but could not get the paperwork done in time for me to be snapped up by their collaborators.

Now I am lead developer for the uniprot.org website and sparql services. Which I love, because I have so much freedom and responsibility and great bosses who are a pleasure to work for and are absolutely dependable, as well as a very diverse team who respects each other talents and quirks.

So to summarise. Luck and networking got me the job, but those where only effective because I had the knowledge and applied it.

So join a professional club (IEEE or Rotary or something) network and learn to find interesting people, because interesting people often have the interesting jobs.

<comment><AUTHOR> See, you created a job you wanted instead of begging for one someone had. Clearly a better position. But how did you demonstrate the capability to be useful without a track record?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> You are conflating not being able to find a job with there being no good jobs.

Working hard in school doesn't entitle you to a "good job" right away. I assume that very few people get the perfect job out of the gate. It takes time to learn what kind of environment you like, what kind of company you want to work for and what kind of people you want to work with. Do a good job with your current position and use it as a stepping stone to something better. You will cultivate relationships with people and build a reputation over time.

</comment><comment><USER10> 2001 - Post college I got a job working for a company that did federal contracting. They had recently started a commercial contract and I was put on the team with 6 other guys in their 20s. We worked like crazy and had a great time for 14+ months. I was moved around to a few other contracts after that and none was every as good, but they weren't bad, until the last one which was soul sucking, and I left.

2004 - Got a new job at another federal contractor and it was a good job for what it was. 9-5ish, no dress code (big deal for east coast .gov contractor), good benefits, vacation, salary, etc. The work was moderately interesting, but the people were good and while the environment wasn't conducive to shipping a lot of product quickly we did get to do some interesting work. Moved to SF in 2008, saw what I was missing, and in

2011 - Joined a small startup that was great for most of 2 years. There were ups and downs, but the work was fun, the team was small and mostly in sync, I got to learn a whole lot and was responsible for basically everything. At the end it kind of went bad, but it was 20ish months of a good place to work. And with the exception of about 3 months in the middle it was a pretty reasonable work/life balance.

2013 - Got a job at another startup. Good people, interesting space, good work environment, decent benefits. I like getting up and coming into the office. I generally work 9-630ish and things look good for the foreseeable future.

TLDR - Yeah, there are plenty of good jobs out there. You aren't guaranteed to find them, so some due diligence will be required, but they are definitely out there.

</comment><comment><USER11> In the ~15 years I've been a software developer I've only spent 2 years in a job I hated.*

The first thing you need to understand, is that you are not a "new grad without a network". From now until the day you retire your main job is cultivating, maintaining and growing your network. This needn't be seen as some sort of soulless MBA exercise in ass kissing. Spending all night figuring out how to write a Scheme compiler for lego robots, getting in a screaming fight about Scala implicits, and figuring out how to make Flash programmable before it was supported by Adobe are all ways I've done this.

If you've really been at a tough engineering school you already have a phenomenal network to exploit. Think professors you've impressed, grad students you've done favors for, and other students you've worked on group projects with.

You mention that you have an internship you hate. Is there not a single person there who seems to have interesting habits or hobbies?

If you are thinking to yourself, "no, I don't have a network that sounds like that". Your very first duty to your career is to build it. Find a professor who is doing something weird and interesting to work with. Do some favors for grad students and work your ass off at your internship. If you can't find something interesting to work on when you are young and studying engineering you aren't trying hard enough (or maybe you should do something else).

My biggest piece of advice is to always work on new and interesting things. The money/career will come from that. __

I can 't think of another career I would rather have.

* It was right after 9/11 a brutal job market, and even then, I learned a ton and met friends for life so I don't regret it at all.

 __At least they did for me. Luck could have been a factor as well.

<comment><USER12> _My biggest piece of advice is to always work on new and interesting things. The money /career will come from that._

This is absolutely true and excellent advice.

It applies, often, even if the thing you're working on has no immediate practical application.

I've spent 18 years making drama films in computer games.

As a result, I built a reasonably successful .com which I then sold, I've traveled all over the world, and I have both a primary and ancilliary skillset which people are interested in spending significant chunks of money to gain access to.

The only addition I'd make to the advice is this:

Tell People About It.

Doing fascinating work and never talking about it works significantly less well. Work with people, post your creations on HN, start a blog, and generally talk to people about what you've done.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'd just like to point out that this

> But that's kind of a chicken/egg situation for new grads without networks.

Is fundamentally false since you are in school. There's a lot of alumni and classmates. Your peers have internships, potentially with companies they like. They may not want to join on full-time afterwards for any number of reasons, but those companies may still be hiring for graduation. Those companies may also be hiring more than one person. The Alumni network can also help in identifying positions available with good companies.

You may also have peers that recently graduated, and have internship positions. It's your last year so this probably isn't applicable to you, but they're also a good source of info and jobs. Don't restrict yourself to your graduating class.

</comment><comment><USER14> Seek out local tech conventions. Open source cons, if your an enthusiast, are usually pretty inexpensive and have a broad exposure to companies large and small.

Another good networking idea is to start going to meetups and the like for tech people. We have a regional one called Tech After 5 that meets in a fairly upscale bar. They hands out nametags so you get names and usually places they work.

Talking to really high level people, and just asking them about the state of the industry, general pointers as a new person, and such are great ways to grow your network. Try to meet a couple of new people a week who are in better positions than you are. A cup of coffee landed me more than a couple jobs.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm not sure that having an internship you hate is an indication of what you can expect in your post-internship experiences. Interns frequently get assigned the work nobody else wants to do, and frequently get less respect than regular employees. It's important, however, that you create a favorable impression of yourself as an intern, since the recommendations and contacts you get from that experience can improve your prospects when looking for a permanent job.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's true. I mean, I'm very respectful about the work I am assigned, when I manage to beg someone into giving me something to do. Everyone is very nice to me, I'm just... Bored. But good advice on building networks. Who you know not what you know and all that.

<comment><USER16> Currently in an internship at a software company in San Diego. Like was mentioned before, having the internship itself as an occupation is not fun. That being said, you really have to put your best foot forward when doing the bitch work. It's a lot like pledging a fraternity, except the tasks you're assigned usher you into a career _hopefully_ in a field you genuinely have interest. It's worth it, but it sucks initially.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There are a lot of high stress/low satisfaction shops out there. Keep looking.

I found one this January that I absolutely love, with the smartest team I've ever worked with. One of the reasons - the company wants every employee to think like an owner with the ability to make some decisions, plus profit sharing; they walk the walk.

There are great places to work out there. Don't settle.

</comment><comment><USER18> There are distinct requirements, goals, and levels in careers. You're just not in it yet, so you can't see it. Let me see if I can draw some analogies.

I have found that everyone feels differently about different types of jobs. Much like some people are cat people, some people are dog people, and some people are fine with cats and dogs living together, some people feel great working for start-ups where you are constantly burning it at both ends, some people are happiest working for a big established company with lots of policies and procedures, and some people like working for companies that are changing from being startups to being enterprises and have projects that fall into both camps. If you figure out what kind of person you are and you target companies that are of that type, you will probably be happy.

Your first job or two is probably going to suck. Much like the first couple of 100-series lecture courses at university, you will wonder why you are there, you will struggle to find meaning or joy in the material, and you will work hard simply to get through it. Your main goal here is to not screw up while you're figuring out what kind of person you are and where you fit in the management/technical tracks and in various teams. You should make sure that you stick your neck out as much as possible in these jobs without totally screwing the pooch. It's anxiety inducing and the sole purpose is to build your resume a little so you can level up. It's ok, it gets better.

Your third or fourth job, which you will get by finding out how to sell the experience and skills you gained in your first job or two and by networking with peers and generally being (or at least appearing to be) a smart person, will probably be joyful. Your focus here should be finding your boundaries and pushing them. You should try all kinds of weird new technologies and push the envelope. You should bend your brain until it breaks, have a beer, and bend it some more. You will probably create some amazing things, and you should keep track of them by frequently updating your resume. My only advice in this period is to take some time off frequently. It's exhilarating to be in this phase, but you can break yourself permanently. This is a marathon, even if you're sprinting all the time.

At your fifth job (or by about 35 years old) you might find your opinion about certain kinds of places and certain kinds of tasks and certain technologies solidifying. This is comparable to your third and fourth year of college. You know where you are, you know who you want to be, and now it's time to focus. This is where you will probably make your most important contributions... Even if you're me, working Ops, and your most important contribution is "Ah wouldn't do tha if ah wuz you."

After that period, you might find yourself in one or two places. But generally, at about age 40, you'll start to slow a little and might lose your ability to hop between companies. This is part of the focusing trend. Some people end up in management because they're technologically burnt out a bit. Some people double down on the technical track and go on to become graybeards. Some people quit and become hermits or police officers or consultants or bricklayers. This phase is comparable to grad school: instead of spending most of your time working with peers, you're spending most of your time teaching to those junior to you... And at the same time, you're still expected to be productive on your own. But you should have developed a plan for when you hit this phase, because grad school is not for everyone.

Hopefully that clears up a few things for you. It's not so much enjoying a job as it is enjoying what you get up and do every day, and changing what you do if you find you don't enjoy it.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't have a meaningful response to this, I just wanted to say this is both good actionable advice and really inspiring. Thanks for this.</comment></comment>


Nevada marijuana legalization gets official OK for 2016 ballot - <AUTHOR> http://www.thecannabist.co/2014/12/08/nevada-marijuana-legalization-2016-ballot/24954/ <comment><USER3> I see two interesting things about this story:

1) There's no mention of tourism in that article. Vegas seems like a natural fit for marijuana legalization, as a party destination, and while I don't have hard data on this, I do wonder if they are/fear seeing a negative impact on tourism as people seek out more "green friendly" destinations.

2) The utter lack of surprise about this. Another state legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana, ho hum, whatevs. The issue has reached the point where it feels inevitable. That's still a bit shocking for me (in a good way).

I don't mean to equate the substance of the issue, but in my mind it feels similar to the march of progress on marriage equality (AKA "gay marriage"). They're both areas where I've long thought our society needed obvious reforms, but as the years marched by, I began to expect _not_ to see any substantive changes in my life.

Now I sit here in my 30's, and by the time my daughter is an adult (~15 years), she'll live in a society where (probably/hopefully) most states have some form of marriage equality and marijuana is at least decriminalized. That is amazing to me.

P.S. For those who think it trivializes marriage equality to compare it to marijuana legalization, I'll remind you that this issue isn't about making it easier for people to get high. It's about the millions of lives hurt by a drug arrest, over 11,0000,000 arrests for marijuana possession from 1996-2012 – and the unequal enforcement of drug laws. For example, in California, a black person is 10 times more likely to serve prison time for a marijuana arrest than a non-black offender. And across the US, black offenders are 3.7 times more likely than white offenders to be arrested for possession. Even ignoring the unequal enforcement, about 12% of prisoners are serving time due to a marijuana-related offense. So yeah, it's kind of a big deal.

<comment><USER4> > _she 'll live in a society where (probably/hopefully) most states have some > form of marriage equality and marijuana is at least decriminalized. That is > amazing to me._

Welcome to the majority of developed countries on the planet now.

One day, you might even see universal healthcare!

<comment><USER5> What are other countries where you are allowed to possess marijuana for recreational usage? Also, what about other substances, like lsd, psilocybin, or plants like peyote?

<comment><USER5> Found this list - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country)

As anonbanker noticed, Uruguay is where it is legal. Another one - <USER2> Korea. The rest of places are either sorta-legal, or "decriminalized", which often still come with fines or some kind of pressure from the law.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It seems like marijuana legalization is the inevitable outcome at this point, but I do wonder what will be the fate of people incarcerated in the time between now and whatever point it happens in the future.

<comment><USER7> A lot has to depend on how quickly things go. If it takes 20 years to really solidify the new direction, many of them will have served their time.

Say it takes 5 years? Could happen!

I think it will go more quickly for economic "land grab" type reasons. Those who move early will gain advantages over those who move later. I know Oregon was thinking growth in industry right along with savings from unproductive corrections.

In that kind of scenario, movements are very highly likely to form to do release advocacy. Some States may be active about it too. I suspect Oregon will do this once the law is settled and working.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Just a comment here about how surreal this is.

Like many of us, pot has always been part of the underground culture, associated with serious trouble.

Now that it's normalizing rapidly where I live, I see many of us just sort of in a state of wonder. Very soon, it's going to be perfectly ordinary to have a BBQ or some other basic social event and see people light a few up, talk, code, game, whatever, and doing that will be as OK as drinking is.

Strange and wonderful times we live in.

</comment><comment><USER8> Man, I tell you, this'll have an impact on Burning Man. _What_ , I don't know, but it's actually a kind of a huge point out there that "no, you can't just tote up". I couldn't tell you the arrest numbers for weed, but my anecdotal understanding is that it's the #1 mistake that gets you searched that reveals all the _other_ stuff...

</comment><comment><USER9> and, just like the NRA had nothing to do with DC v. Heller (and in fact, filed a brief _against_ it when CATO filed), NORML has nothing to do with these victories.

the NRA was an elaborate way to milk money from gun owners whilst sabotaging the overall movement. I can't help but think NORML is the exact same thing from their track record.

</comment><comment><USER10> Neat--it will be interesting to see how all the states go along. There won't be the constitutional issue of gay marriage, so it looks like it's a matter of the federal government leaving it up to the states eventually. Even ethanol had a constitutional component (as opposed to just statute).

</comment><comment><USER11> Remember when this site was about tech?

<comment><USER12> If you think this doesn't relate to Tech, you must have never worked with programmers on the west coast.

<comment><USER13> Or more generally, the insane amount of Tech now being developed around marijuana cultivation and distribution. Like the highly customizable automation system I just designed and installed in a legal grow house.

<comment><USER14> This site seems to be mostly about tech and business (plus other things that interest "hacker culture"). You can tell that cannibis is on it's way to be a big business. The direction we are heading is full legalization nationwide which is going to open up a new industry. If the US legalizes this drug it will probably change the rest of the world because a lot of countries seem to follow many of our drug policies.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Virtual Reality News from the NY Times - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2015/nytvr/ <comment><AUTHOR> First big news company, I think. And they send out free google cardboards to all Sunday home delivery subscribers. Pretty cool and interesting to see how that plays out.</comment>


Like DoorDash, but for Goodwill - <AUTHOR> This lets you impulsively get rid of stuff safely. You summon the driver with the app and pay them a small fee and they haul all your stuff to Goodwill and donate it for you. Someone should build this. <comment><USER2> Goodwill should do this as a trial in cities to see if it works: Maybe it's a less "friction" way to have customers more easily donate.</comment>