The Enduring Mystery of 'Jawn,' Philadelphia's All-Purpose Noun (2016) - <AUTHOR> https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-enduring-mystery-of-jawn-philadelphias-allpurpose-noun <comment><USER2> Quite a few people in the comments are asking why you couldn't just use the word "thing", I'll try my best to explain.

I grew up in northeastern PA, but my dad lived on the outskirts of Philly, and I went to school not far from the city, with a large population of Philly natives, so I got a decent amount of exposure to jawn usage from different walks of life.

Jawn has a few different uses, but I feel most often it was meant to blend plural and singular explanations of things, or to encapsulate the generalization of a topic. It can replace "thing" or "stuff" or "shit" (when shit is used like "that's my shit"). But it isn't just about replacement, as I've heard the phrase "that shit's my jawn", or "all that jawn stuff". It almost can be used as a replacement, or a doubling/accent of any word in a sentence, as long as you know what you're doing.

For instance, if someone was at your house and saw you had soft pretzels, they might say "Let me get some of that pretzel jawn". They didn't really ask for one pretzel, but you would know that's what they wanted, or they want at least one. Another common usage was if someone was talking about something they didn't know a ton of details of. I studied Math and Comp Sci at school, and if I was studying and a friend who knew nothing about it came over, they might see me working and say "You all caught up in your computer jawn?". Not sure how ubiquitous this usage is, but we also used to digress into nearly nonsensical usages, and say stuff like "What's all this jawn jawn", which somehow was understood as emphasizing your disapproval, or lack of understanding of whatever the subjecting of the jawn-ing was.

I don't know if I'm doing it justice, and it isn't until I really tried to flesh out my understanding of a word that I realized how difficult it could be, but maybe that helps someone understand.

<comment><USER3> I still don't feel like this is more than 5% different from a combination of "thing" and "shit" in colloquial Canadianese.

<comment><USER4> Ditto from Kentucky.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Interesting linguistics but as someone who spent a few years living in Philly I think the use of "jawn" is a little overstated here. I lived in both black and white working class areas, as well as gentrified/young professional areas such as nolibs and (to a lesser extent) fishtown.

You know who says "jawn" the most? The kids of the upper middle class who grew up in ardmore/wynnwood/bala cynwyd/merion/etc. and moved to the city and now employ working class affectations to prove their authenticity.

<comment><USER6> It definitely jumped the shark and is now fetishized by white millennials.

<comment><USER7> After Creed came out, it has become part of the English lexicon, more or less. Kinda like what Rocky did for "yo".

<comment><USER8> I've been using Jawn since I was a child in the early 90s. I remember my grandfather who was born in the 30s using it.

<comment><USER9> yep -- first time I heard it was on Dj Jazzy Jeff & The Fresh Prince's "I'm All That" circa 1991. "...set my sights on making a record that people thought was a hype jawn." I was living in New England at the time and all the middle school kids [including me] started saying it shortly thereafter.

We generally assumed it was a synonym for "joint" [as described in the linked article] in the sense of "unit of work," e.g. "A Spike Lee Joint"

[p.s. for the record, "Homebase" is an outstanding LP that still sounds great today]

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The word 'da kine' in Hawaiian pidgin is similar.

The thing with da kine is that it is never used to refer to something one is not sure about.

When someone says to you: "Why didn't you come to Queens with us yesterday, the waves were da kine!", they mean the waves were the kind of waves that I know you like.

The author of the article above also wrote: [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/da-kine-hawaiian- pidgi...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/da-kine-hawaiian-pidgin) on the subject of 'da kine.'

<comment><USER11> Speaking of waves, the article also mentions modern usage of "awesome" meaning great or cool rather than terrifying. The crossover of meanings was in surfer culture, where terrifying _was_ great. Surfers sought waves that were awesome (meaning terrifying), radical (meaning severe), or even tubular (meaning they curled over so hard they nearly formed a tube on the water) because those were the most fun to ride. I like that despite sounding silly (especially since the 80s are long behind us), these terms have real meanings and histories.

Then again, maybe the connection goes deeper. There are plenty of languages that have words that once meant "terrifying" and now mean "superb"; compare English _terrific_ and Japanese _subarashii_ (whose original meaning was "causes you to shrink (with fright)"). Maybe we just instinctually simultaneously fear power and admire it, and that gets encoded into our speech. Christians are taught both that God is good, and that he should be feared.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I went to school in Philly and the moment that really crystalized both my understanding of the word jawn and the city as a whole was a truck driver screaming at a PPA agent trying to hand him a ticket: "This donk ain't my jawn yo!"

</comment><comment><USER13> Its interesting that the article posits that it came from a song released in 1981 and then mentions that there was a recording in 1981 of someone already using the word in its current expansive way, and must have already started developing by the late 70s.

Growing up in the dc area, joint and junk were sort of merged together and there was a word kind of like jawnks. "That's my jawnks."

<comment><USER14> Not to be confused with the (I believe) DC/PG County verb "joan". To "joan on" someone was to tease them or "break balls".

I heard this all the time in the late 80's and early 90's but never really afterward. Not sure if they are at all related since the meaning and usage is so different.

<comment><USER15> The Philadelphia version of "joan" in the 80s/90s was "bust"....now it's "bid". Philadelphians no longer "bust on people" they "bid on people". It's really interesting how these things evolve. DC kids probably have an new entirely unrelated word that essentially means joan now

<comment><USER14> I lived in the boonies north of DC so by the time I heard DC/PG transplant kids using it, it was probably already old news.

We did say "bust on" a lot (more common than "joan on" where I grew up) and it stuck around longer. Even now, 25-30 years later, I wouldn't take note if someone said "bust on" someone--but the one time I heard someone my age say "joan on" recently, I gave her a grin and asked if she was from PG county. She was surprised to learn it wasn't common elsewhere.

edit: after looking into this just now, I guess it's still used farther south. Haven't heard it in the DC/MD area in years.

<comment><USER16> yeah this was still common in Atlanta about 10 years ago

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Not at all uncommon. The dialect of Brussels has something similar: "schroumpf". This word has become famous the world over, albeit in translation. You likely know it as "smurf".

<comment><USER18> I was unaware the smurfs lived in Brussels. From Wikipedia:

> The word "smurf" is the original Dutch translation of the French > "schtroumpf", which, according to Peyo, is a word he invented during a meal > with fellow cartoonist André Franquin when he could not remember the word > salt.

<comment><USER17> Exactly, but from what I remember reading somewhere - but can't of course now find a source for - it wasn't so much that he invented the word but that he decided to use it for his comic characters. The word was in common use at the time - and, in fact, it was Franquin that used it on that occasion, not Peyo.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Another nuance of jawn is that it could mean anything....except when it involved gender.

Jawn when referring to a human specifically referred to a woman. "That jawn bad" means a woman is attractive. Currently the younger crowd has a phrase "That's a bad jawn" that means something unfortunate happened. Context is very important when jawn is used

</comment><comment><USER19> This reminds me of Venezuelan's use of `vaina` (literally a husk), an all- purpose catch word that I've seen used to supplant other words/concepts that you don't have at the tip of your tongue. In my native Spain I see people use `historia` (history).

It's not a substitute of shit, thing, and stuff, since it can be used alongside these words and you can bring the `vaina` to the `vaina`.

Maybe the weirdness of `jawn` is it's not a word on its own therefore it cannot cause confusion?

Non-Philly, non-US, non-native English speaker here, so please excuse me if I'm not getting the gist of the article.

<comment><USER20> Not recent, but perhaps words like doohickey, thingamajig, whatzit, ya-know, etc, are similar in American English. All substitutes for _" concept/thing on the tip of my tongue that I can't recall the correct word for right now"_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Can any Chilenos chime in on how close 'hueón' is to 'jawn'?

In Chile I heard it used to mean a person or a thing, or whatever really.

<comment><USER22> I'm not Chilean but my girlfriend is, and I thought of that word instantly when I saw this.

Even though I'm not Chilean, I'm from Spain and I think I have a decent grasp on its meaning. It can be used to refer to any person or object. I only speak English and Spanish (fluently), but I've always assumed that there are similar words in any language. Terms with extremely open meanings (or terms that at least can be used that way).

Of course there are various differences. For example, I assume jawn can be used as a verb (to jawn). "Hueón" (or usually, "weón") can't be used as a verb by itself, but of course you have the verb "webear/huevear", that belongs to the same word family, with the same open meaning but for any action. I don't think, however, that this means "wueon" is less versatile than "jawn". I think it's just because in English it's common to have a noun and a verb that look very similar (a cut/ to cut, a mine/to mine) and in Spanish that's unusual.

As a side note, the word "huevo" means egg, and "huevón" can mean "big egg" or refer to someone who, well, has big balls (sometimes used as a mild insult like "dumb"). "Hueón", just as "wueón" or "webón", are all misspellings of "huevón". My own guess is that the term evolved from that original meaning into the wildcard it is today.

If any true Chileans show up, feel free to correct my words! And please ignore my obvious lack of linguistics knowledge, that was just my uneducated impression :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> ...What about the word "thing", some variation of which is used 20 times in the article, but never acknowledged?

</comment><comment><USER24> Pretty cool that it can be used in so many places. More than shit, thing or similar words.

It reminds of te Smurf language where they can use "smurf" and variants of it as a general name for a person, replace verbs and adjectives. The meaning is highly contextual.

</comment><comment><USER25> Yoke is used pretty freely in Ireland and certainly can reference people, things or ideas. It doesn't handle verbs though. It's thing or thingie really but with flair.

<comment><USER26> That's what I thought of when I read the article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I don't buy this:

[https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/oojamaf...](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/oojamaflip)

[https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/thingam...](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/thingamabob)

<comment><USER28> Neither of those work as a plural. However, 'shit' does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I grew up in Maryland, and my wife thinks it's funny that I say "wooder" and "jimmies". I always thought it was something I picked up from my grandmother since she was a pre-school teacher and tended to pick up pronunctions from her students. Another word that my wife thinks is funny is "woorsh" instead of wash.

<comment><USER30> My dad also pronounced wash as "warsh". And then orange was always "oinge". Don't have any idea where he picked it up because none of my other relatives pronounce them that way.

<comment><USER31> "warsh" is sometimes heard in Pittsburghese.

<comment><USER30> We're from Iowa though... Obviously picked it up somewhere, but no idea who from.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> > _an unusual lexicon that includes words such as "hoagie" and "jimmies" (a > sub sandwich and sprinkles, respectively)_

Also water ice, which the rest of the world calls Italian ice.

<comment><USER33> If that's what I think it is, the rest of the world (including Italy) calls it a Sorbet or Sherbet:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbet)

It's basically ice, fruit pulp and sugar, blended together.

<comment><USER34> It's as though the ratio and process of blending those ingredients together can't possibly produce a different result...

Sorbet, Sherbet, "Italian Ice" and "Water Ice" (as experienced in Philly) are not all the same thing.

Also, sherbet contains dairy, none of these others do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> My exposure from the word was from listening to The Roots, a rap group from Philadelphia. I was able to use context clues to assume the word was mixed purpose, but didn't get confirmation until I searched for it years after hearing it.

On the more embarrassing side, it took me way longer then I would care to admit to understand that "Illadelph" was slang for the name of the city.

</comment><comment><USER36> At the end of the article, it talks about "bag" being pronounced like "byaeg" or "beg", and "backpack" like "beckpeck". I'm surprised they didn't use the common example of "bagel", which is normally pronounced the same as "bay gull", but in Philly the first syllable is "beg".

</comment><comment><USER37> The linguistics of Philadelphia and the surrounding area are some of the best- studied in the world since UPenn pioneered the academic study of sub-dialects of American English: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_English)

</comment><comment><USER38> Back in the late 90s I had a roommate from Philly and used "jawn" almost every sentence. His excuse was "I'm from Philly yo"

</comment><comment><USER39> Super-producer Diplo was once one half of Hollertronix. He had a song called "Real Jawns"[1], the meaning of which remained a mystery for me until this article.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtmpW6qI- KU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtmpW6qI-KU)

</comment><comment><USER40> My circle of friends has a similar word, but it's an all-purpose verb. The word is "blomp".

"Blomp some sour cream on that for me"

"I'm gonna blomp over to the store"

"...and then my kid blomped me right in the head with his toy"

</comment><comment><USER41> Somehow, in Memphis, we ended up with "junt" in a very similar use.

<comment><USER42> They say this junt "jawn" is unique like anyone cares.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> How does the meaning of "jawn" differ from "thing"?

<comment><USER44> A thing is going to be a noun.

A jawn is a possibly uninitialized variable thrown in at random anywhere, as far as I can jawn.

<comment><USER45> Are there any uses in the article where one couldn't just say thing, things or thingy? Half my sleep-deprived conversations with my wife are about thingying the thing so we can thingy the other thing.

<comment><USER46> Places and people, it seems.

<comment><USER47> It is sometimes used for places and people but now that you mention it I can only really think of examples of it being used for slightly negative references. I would say there's usually some contempt behind it.

Place: "I have to go to that DMV jawn and renew my license."

People: "Them TSA jawn opened my bag."

Person: "She's my ex jawn."

It can also be used to refer to women or a woman in a belittling way. Somewhat similar to "bitch."

For example: "That jawn is clingy." or "Them jawns be crazy."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Marklar

[https://southpark.cc.com/clips/151539/welcome-to- marklar](https://southpark.cc.com/clips/151539/welcome-to-marklar)

</comment><comment><USER49> Baltimore has the gender-neutral pronoun "yo": [https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/04/25/178788893...](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/04/25/178788893/yo- said-what) [https://read.dukeupress.edu/american-speech/article- abstract...](https://read.dukeupress.edu/american-speech/article- abstract/82/3/262/5458/A-NEW-GENDER-NEUTRAL-PRONOUN-IN-BALTIMORE-MARYLAND)

</comment><comment><USER50> In Hawaii they say Da Kine. It's a brand name now.

</comment><comment><USER51> This was actually much more interesting than I thought it would be. And well- researched.

</comment><comment><USER52> Reminds me of Pittsburghese. Yinz know what I'm talkin' about?

</comment><comment><USER53> a lot of people mentioning "thing," and it's simply not used that way. That said, "ting" of Jamaican Patois origin would be appropriate.

</comment><comment><USER54> Further reading with better linguistic coverage: [http://languagehat.com/jawn/](http://languagehat.com/jawn/)

<comment><USER55> How is this "further reading"? This is just blog spam that links to the original article and only has three sentences of its own.

<comment><USER54> You are right. Language hat _usually_ provides more context and fantastic discussion with their readers but not in this case. Sorry for not reading close enough.</comment></comment></comment>


Explain Shell - <AUTHOR> http://explainshell.com/

<comment><USER2> Bookmarked. I wish something like existed for explaining complex math equations, like, say Einstein Field Equations. Too bad explainmath.com is taken.</comment>


Harvard Square businesses install tablets to collect for homeless - <AUTHOR> http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/03/01/harvard-square-businesses-install-tablets-collect-more-than-spare-change-for-homeless/uSEjrWjylcIMKSTswBbK6L/story.html

<comment><USER2> More accurately, the tablets do not collect money for homeless people _per se_. They collect for _charities_ that benefit the homeless.

As an alternative to giving to the homeless directly.

(Oh my will this ever be misconstrued!)

> "The problem is, people throw change in the cup but can't really know where > it's going," she said. "A lot of times, that money is used for illicit > behavior, whether its drugs or alcohol. But by giving to the agencies, we > can make sure homeless get the care they need in a transparent, trackable > way."

This sounds great.

Though I'm OK with giving to homeless people knowing they'll spend it on things like cigarettes. I don't think its useful to deride them for that. I'm fortunate enough to enjoy much more complicated and expensive pleasures, I would hate to deny anyone their own sources of pleasure and anxiety relief.

(of course addiction is another issue altogether, and isn't limited to the homeless).

<comment><comment><comment>~

On a slightly related note, the Salvation Army bell-ringers seem much more obnoxious to me than actual homeless people when it comes to begging. I would be much more inclined to give to a monk-like figure merely sitting than someone clamoring away (in what I perceive as disrespectful noise-making for the sake of attention).

<comment><USER3> I wouldn't deride someone of smoking who maintained an otherwise responsible lifestyle, insofar as they don't need support for basic living necessities (food, shelter, etc). A person who doesn't have the faculties to operate in society without significant aide from others has bigger problems on their plate than their next nicotine fix.

Consequently, I don't think any extra-governmental system would be sufficient to fix the homeless problem. There needs to be federal-level support, and a comprehensive support system that provides either reintegration support, or longterm care to those who need it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> It has also been covered by BostInno

[http://bostinno.com/2013/03/01/leaf-harvard-square- donations...](http://bostinno.com/2013/03/01/leaf-harvard-square-donations- homeless/)

<comment><AUTHOR> [http://www.boston.com/business/innovation/blogs/inside- the-h...](http://www.boston.com/business/innovation/blogs/inside-the- hive/2013/03/01/start-leaf-helps-fuel-harvard-square- giving/AxdWpciigPDVJlhhc0jE8O/blog.html)</comment></comment>


How Shaw Cable dicked us out of bandwidth - <AUTHOR> http://alexknight.net/blog/2011/2/2/how-shaw-cable-dicked-us-out-of-bandwidth.html

<comment><USER2> This was a really long way to say "bandwidth limits are horse-shit", with an additional aside that explains that pricing schemes aren't very sensible, and you can get better deals by choosing the non-intuitive option.</comment>


Ask HN: Can we build our own High Frequency RFID Reader? - <AUTHOR> I am a software developer with no experience in electronics.
Access to electronics workshop won't be an issue since my uncle has business in electronics. Also, I don't mind reading and researching on RFID.
At the moment my reader should be able to read multiple tags with less than 1 meter of distance.
I would like to know what challenges one can face while building their own RFID reader.
Thanks in advance! <comment><USER2> As long you you don't have a size requirement, I would say go with an Arduino and an NFC expansion board. Then you could just do the software side. It also isn't too expensive. Here's a link to one [https://www.arrow.com/en/products/x-nucleo- nfc05a1/stmicroel...](https://www.arrow.com/en/products/x-nucleo- nfc05a1/stmicroelectronics?gclid=CK-kl_nr1-ICFQ2wswodK10KAg)

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't want to build a NFC based readers. Although, I have watched tutorials on NFC reader with Arduino (RC 522 module). It's not that complicated.

My ideal scenario where reader will be implemented is retail stores (Once prototype is working as expected).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Look into Proxmark 3. It's an open-source and open-hardware NFC reader.

</comment><comment><USER4> are the tags active(self-powered) or passive(reader-powered), if reader powered you might have trouble trying to get them from a distance of 1 metre

<comment><AUTHOR> Tags would be passive.</comment></comment>


How do you deal with people who ask you to fix their computer? - <AUTHOR> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/q/5384/468

<comment><USER2> "Sorry, I only use Macs." (This tends to work well whether it's true or not.)

If it turns out to be a Mac they're using, I'll usually help because it never turns out to be a weird hardware problem, driver incompatibilities or the like.

<comment><USER3> I waisted 4 hours with a Mac that just wouldn't boot because of stupid changes to the firmware or bootloader, starting with those damn boot shortcuts because Apple thought it would be unsexy to put a map of the available shortcuts on the boot screen.

And the worst part, after those waisted hours I've barely received a "thank you", with disappointment in his eyes probably because it took so long (hey, a beer would've been nice, but I guess I'm old-fashioned).

This was a neighbor, and the problem with such people is that they neither learn, nor appreciate the time you waist on fixing their shit. As if you owe them something.

<comment><USER4> For next time, I think you mean "waste" as in dispose of, not "waist" as in pants.

More importantly, teach your neighbor to Google:

<http://www.google.com/search?q=Mac%20boot%20keys>

Give a man tech help, help him for a day; teach him to Google, help him for life.

<comment><USER3> > _For next time, I think you mean "waste" as in dispose of, not "waist" as in > pants._

:) sorry.

It was a little more complicated than that, not to mention I didn't have another workstation available, and had to get back home to get my laptop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have a stack of print-outs of xkcd's tech support cheat-sheet [1], that I give to the person.

On some occasions, they actually have an interesting problem, but, the other 99% of the time, I just save my time by handing them the cheat sheet.

[1]: <http://xkcd.com/627/>

</comment><comment><USER6> My mom woke me up Sunday morning with a phone call. I'm laying in bed, eyes closed, telling her, "Ok, click on accessories, then command prompt . . . Now type 'ipconfig' space, slash, release . . . " While I'm doing all this, I'm wondering how I got myself in this position.

<comment><USER7> How: You picked up the phone when your mom called.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> In a work context, helping people with their computer problems isn't a bad thing. If it sounds like something easy, help them fix it. If it sounds hard, refer them to tech support.

Also, if someone walks by struggling to carry a heavy package, offer to help them with it. Helping is good, as long as you keep it under control.

Helping people with little things is one of the best ways to build a network.

<comment><USER9> Absolutely! I don't get asked a whole lot, but don't mind helping because of the reasons you point out and also because it keeps me sharp.

One thing that is _really_ helpful is that I always have the friend drop his computer off at my house so I can work on it in my spare (sparse) time with all my tools at hand. Nowadays the computers are mostly laptops, but even towers are easy enough to transport (I have plenty of keyboards, mice, and monitors).

Trying to fix a computer in real time on-site or over a phone is a major PITA.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I say "No."

Learning to say "No" is an important life skill.

</comment><comment><USER11> "I haven't used windows in like 10 years I really have no clue what I'm doing with it".

Honest and works most of the time.

I also get asked to go shopping for computers with family and family friends all the time. Given how useless I am with PC hardware it's really amazing(I can assemble one but don't ask me to pick the parts).

<comment><USER12> I built one, including picking the parts, but that was 12 years ago. I wouldn't try it again now without a few weeks study. Keeping up with changes and new hardware is more trouble than it's worth, if you don't do it more or less constantly, for a job or such.

<comment><USER13> I recently started building a machine, just as an exercise. I've spent 2-3 weeks researching parts now because I've been so far out of the loop.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I like helping people and I almost always learn something interesting. I'm also personally embarrassed at how hard the we in the computer industry makes things. Grandparents want to look at pictures of their grand kids, everyone wants email and it's nice to buy things online. No one should have to know what DNS means, what an SPF record is or worry about scammers stealing their credit cards and who ever makes these things better will probably get rich as well.

</comment><comment><USER15> I enjoy helping people a little, usually recommending good usage guidelines (IE:Use Chrome, a Mac, gmail). It's actually a great "usability" process to watch people solve their problems and figure things out. A big help is to watch peoples problems, not listen to them.

I'm actually amazed by the BS that people put up with to get their computer to do what they want. Complete novices will encounter an issue, and they'll go through a process, often 5-7 steps, of which 1 solves the problem. I like to think of myself as Exorcizing Technical Demons from people. It really is not a technical issue 80% of the time. My girlfriend shakes her Cellphone to improve reception. I haven't been able to exorcize that one yet. I think she likes how much it aggravates me.

I also have clear boundaries on helping them get through their problems and fixing them. IE: I don't re-install windows. I will muck for 5 minutes to get spybot and try and rescue a computer, but then it's to the repair shop. I'm not going to sit around for 3 hours while spybot runs, I'll tell them to give me a ring.

</comment><comment><USER16> Given that it's usually my wife or my stepmother, usually I say Yes. I did help with the internet connection on a neighbor's computer about a year ago, but we've known them for years and are on good terms.

</comment><comment><USER17> I refer them to a friend who does that for a living.

<comment><AUTHOR> The problem why they refer to _you_ instead of professional is because they want to save the $$$

<comment><USER17> I know that, but they'd never admit that would they :)

I might offer to install Ubuntu on their machines though, that usually cures them of any last resistance.

<comment><AUTHOR> Before, after you install it they will call you to support _any_ IT issues. And if you manage to screw things up, expect a barrage of abuse.

<comment><USER17> Oh, I pretty much guarantee them I'll screw things up, that's why I have a friend who fixes my stuff for me ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If it's family, they're running Ubuntu, so I use VNC to connect and resolve the issue (hopefully educating them along the way). My wife and I share a machine at home, so I suppose that one doesn't count.

I generally tell friends that I'm not familiar enough with Windows to resolve the issue in a timely manner. I also tell them that I would have to google the problem and they'd be better sending it to a specialist. Afterwards, I refer them to a couple of breakfix shops.

I tell co-workers that it'd be a conflict of interest and I don't do any "computer work" outside of our company.

Anyone else gets a polite "no."

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm usually happy to help out friends with one-off requests, but it depends on the nature of it... or rather I should say, if I'm doing it for free / on the cheap, how much of an inconvenience is it?

I won't ask much of anything for quick requests or advice. If I'm at a good friend's place helping them on their machine, I might just want their company to shoot the breeze or have a beer with while waiting for Spybot et. al. to finish. Usually dinner's good enough since it means I don't have to expend any money or effort for it, and redirect it toward something relatively simple for me.

I have one neighbor who, under normal circumstances, I would have a hard time agreeing to help for free, but given that he and his construction company helped build our house(along with the fact that we trade wine / honey, and he helps us with other favors), it's something I'm more than willing to deal with. It helps that he generally listens to my advice too(i.e. back up stuff, don't use IE, etc.).

On the other hand, I have a friend who I'm just about through with trying to help, though. He has frequently has numerous problems with spyware that infects his machine, and will ignore my advice despite discussing it at length for 30 minutes or more, only to have the same problems arise again several months later. I've even suggested(and even gave a burned copy of) Ubuntu 9 for his mother who "only goes on the internet and uses MS Office" but declined to use it because "he didn't know how to install it"-he didn't care that I could've walked him through it or that it was even easier than Windows... "nope, not Windows, won't do it."

</comment><comment><USER19> I like fixing other people's computers. It's the closes thing I have to a super power. Imagine if superman decided he was too busy to help other people....

</comment><comment><USER20> Depends. Family and friends? Sure, happy to help. I warn them that, although I have assorted Windows systems about, I have not really kept up on things, so I might be just guessing, but my guesses are typically better than thoe of my family and friends.

Strangers? Depends. Mostly I say No, or maybe I position it like a job request that will surely become expensive. But sometimes it's a chance to meet someone new, maybe get to know someone in your neighborhood. I helped a woman in my area with some Windows issues (a failed install of some IE crapware), and later tried to get here set up with an old printer I had (lack of drivers ruined that plan).

In return, she bought me delicious apple pie, and now I have an acquaintance in a neighborhood where you rarely run into people so as to get to know them.

BTW, for stereotypical geeks, helping others with computer issues is good practice for interacting with normal humans.

</comment><comment><USER21> Simple, I ask for something small in return - a four-pack of beer, help with my car, dinner, or something like that. I started doing this many years ago, and it's got rid of the "Hi, I'm a fried of your brother"-type calls, whilst my friends and family have recognised that it's work for me nonetheless.

End result: everyone goes home happy :)

</comment><comment><USER22> Sure, I'll do it for you. You can wash my clothes/dishes/clean up the place while I do it. It always works.

</comment><comment><USER23> Repeatedly "attempt to fix" problems for people and "fail" almost every time. Then, just say something like "Yeah, I write software, but I'm really not one of those IT desktop guys". After a while, they stop asking.

</comment><comment><USER24> I either say "No" or I quote them my usual consulting rate, usually the topic of conversation changes pretty quickly thereafter.

</comment><comment><USER25> I don't get asked that a lot, so unlike quite a lot or replies I read, I actually try to fix it most of the time!

</comment><comment><USER26> I only use Linux. Or sometimes Mac OS, Solaris, FreeBSD or other esoteric stuff. Heck, I even run a command line on my Linux telephone.

</comment><comment><USER27> I always tell them to bring it to my house because I know they won't. If they ever did, I could fix it on my own time.

</comment><comment><USER28> Depending on who it is, I either do it for them or immediately start talking about how much I charge.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'd recommend to use Open source software whenever and wherever possible.

</comment><comment><USER30> I say I am a "geek" and ask for a ridiculous fee.

</comment><comment><USER31> It gets annoying if it's constant

</comment><comment><USER32> I simply tell them politely "no".

</comment><comment><USER33> If it's relative or friend I'll do it.

If it's some random old guy he gets blocked on all communication levels in no time.</comment>


Why i can't make this app - <AUTHOR>

Well my name is arturo, i'm an aeronautical engineer, but most interested in entreprenuership and internet startups.
I recently got acepted to an accelerator in san francisco and i'am about to get 25k in founding; can't say the name. I was trying to develop the app with my techical co-founder, but he's recently acting very strange since we got accepted to the program; he's currently studying computer science, and is in his third year, i have tried to meet up with him but he says every time that he's really busy,and i'm sometimes thinking that he doesn't want to help me anymore, because i think he's too scared of dropout of collenge and leave his family to work in san francisco. Before i was trying to make this app, like 1 year and a half ago, i was starting an ecommerce webiste; something like p2p commerce with some cool technologies, i had 1 one cofounder that was very helpful at that time and helped me with the idea development, so when we start doing some work i invite him to help me with the development; i have to say that i'm not a coder i have tried and been to java and php courses but i've found that that's not my thing, i love selling the product and business, i think that, that's what i'm really good at.. In fact i meet this person(techical cofounder) in a java course, and beacame friends..
He has accepted to help me with the product but i've seen that he's not very commited to help, he preferes developing apps that adds lol and troll faces to people, i think this doesn't change or help to improve the world.
The company that i'm starting is app,that its really a social magazine for shopping(very interactive, similar to flipboard) i'm not going to say my secret sauce, but i'm really passionate about this, my technical cofounder was going to develop the adroid app and  i was trying to search a developer for the iphone, but now that my cofounnder is gone, i have nothing now, i'm really sad, i couldn't try to learn objective c beacuase i haven't a mac right know and i think i will need large amounts of time to learn it, i really don't want to waste this opportunity because of my cofounder.
So if anyone here is interested in help me out with this app please contact me at my e-mail: email@example.com, or here... I could give you some equitity in exchange... You need to be able tomove to san francisco to work in the company within the accelerator program... Thanks! <comment><USER2> A few comments that may or may not apply to you...

1\. Majority of all first time entrepreneurs and especially non-technical cofounders all think they're good at business, selling, product dev, etc... They are not. Most suck and don't even know it.

My advice is to stop thinking you're good at something you've never even done and focus on learning. After all, most people who think they're good at something mostly never bother improving since they think they're already good at it. Don't be that person.

2\. I don't know the exact details of what you're building but from the vague description, it doesn't sound world changing either so don't knock on your buddy for his ideas. Most ideas are not "world changing" and they don't need to be. Everyone is different and even if you prefer something else, respect his choices. Don't make it sound like you're working on a world changing idea when it's most likely not.

3\. You should talk to your cofounder and set things straight. I don't know if he knows you're already looking for a replacement. Not to mention you guys should have a formal termination of service for a few reasons.

<comment><AUTHOR> 1.-well i think you're right in something, you can always improve your coding skills with some dedication as you say..i also code, know technical things cuz im an engineer, but without a really technical cofounder that lives from programming, is hard to know how to develop the product or from where to start..btw im not first time entrepreneur. 2.-its something like location based app magazine. 3.yes i have spoken with my cofounder, he was a little bit busy by the time, know the problem is that i lack of a ios developer for the iphone app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Can't you talk to the folks at ypur accelerator program? I'm pretty sure they'll be glad to give you some advice. Maybe they can introduce you to someone, as their network is probably a lot bigger than yours.

One thing slightly bothers me, though. 40% may sound like a good deal, but without your future developer you basically have nothing. An idea, but that's it.

Also I'd advise you to learn how to code. You said it's 'not your thing', but when it comes running a startup you really have to be able to do everything. I'm sure there are some coding chores that you can do while your tech cofounder cracks the advanced issues.

Good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes i have some coding skills, i code in ruby on rails,javascript , the thing is that now that i'm alone i don't know how to develop the product, how to start!or from where to start-- ... By the way the product is in objective c, but i can do some javascript there, html or css...:)

<comment><USER3> But have you talked to the people at the accelerator yet? I don't know which accelerator it is, but if it's anything like I/O ventures, Techstars or YC, I'm sure that Paul, Brad or Paul has meaningful advice for you. In fact, that's where I would turn the second I realized my cofounder is going to quit.

<comment><AUTHOR> No i haven't talked to them but my cofounder was acting weird beacuse he is in exams, i recently talk to him.. By the way i would also need some help to develop in ios

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> You need to give equity commensurate with risk. Finding a good co-founder technical co founder probably requires that person to quit their job or whatever.(or take risk in general)

So, find the right person first and then negotiate with them to bring them on as a co-founder, not ill give you some equity or ill can offer you x%.

My advise would be to use your funding to get a prototype built (using vWorker or remote hire or whatever) and build up customers. Once you have customers its easy for people to see what you are trying to do and many people would be DTH.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes i think that could be a solution, the bad thing is that most of that persons are only commited by a very short period of time.. I most cases they don't want to continue with you, and move to their next project.. But it has to be a shorcut in order to find a real cofounder

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Move to San francisco as soon as possible and go to all kinds of networking events. Make new friends and find someone there. You should be able to find someone if you try, especially if you already have been accepted to an incubator.

And from what you've written it seems that you don't have a working product and you aren't able to build it yourself. your mindset shouldn't be "I could give you some equity in exchange". You should be willing to bring that person on as an equal status co-founder.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry for that, i will give 40% of the company...

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Forgot to say the technical CoFounder that im looking for, have to be an iOS developer,strong in html,css,javascript,have a keen eye for ui implementation... Also i want to remark that i don't want a monkey coder for me, i'm trying to find a partner in this business...

</comment><comment><USER6> Dude — paragraphs.

<comment><AUTHOR> Done :)</comment></comment>


Pair Programming Memes - <AUTHOR> http://pairprogramminglife.tumblr.com/

<comment><USER2> Is pair programming really that awesome?

<comment><USER3> I don't do it all the time, but it can be fun and productive. I like tackling problems with others. One person types, the other person helps come up with ideas about what could be going wrong. It can also be nice to take a break from your own work to pair with someone. They get a fresh pair of eyes, you get to stop doing something you're tired of for a bit to work on a new problem.</comment></comment>


WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton to leave company - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-whatsapp-founder/whatsapp-co-founder-brian-acton-to-leave-company-idUSKCN1BO05Y <comment><USER2> I swear to God, WhatsApp is THE startup fairytale.

No dilution, bootstrapped, greenfield tech and mind boggling earn out. A once in a generation business story.

I always mention WhatsApp when people want to do something overly complicated.

<comment><USER3> The fairytale for startup employees is probably Microsoft and its 10,000 millionaires. But that was two generations ago. A generation ago, it was 'The Google Chef' and far fewer millionaires though several thousand. While WhatsApp created a lot of wealth, it did not create a lot of wealthy people. That seems to be the trend.

<comment><USER4> To be realistic, Whatsapp is massive and popular, but totally incomparable to Microsoft or Google as a company. Whatsapp is a chat app, Microsoft is the operating system and office software of 1.25 billion computers around the world.

<comment><USER5> I don't think that the technical scope of the software or the company behind it were what was being measured against the notion of a "fairytale startup" by the parent, or the grandparent. They spoke of "greenfield tech", "mind- boggling earn out", "10 000 millionaires" but the product didn't have to be an entire operating system. A game could be a fairytale startup then. Flappy Bird would have done it for me

<comment><USER4> I guess, but if we're talking about the number of millionaires to come out of a startup, then I think the scope and size of the company is very relevant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> He has 6.5 BILLIONS. That's almost double what Brian Chesky (CEO Airbnb) has including paper money, more than Evan (CEO Snapchat) has, and more than Travis (CEO Uber) has including the ridiculous valuation. Just an observation.

<comment><USER7> Much more than YouTube sold for, total acquisition price. Which I thought was incredible at the time (and still do, considering how difficult is has been for Google to monetize, it seems.)

I think WhatsApp was just overvalued, personally. It's excellent in many ways, but I cannot see Facebook ever making their money back on it.

<comment><USER8> Today I was sitting in a hotel lounge in Dubai and a lady asked me to help send her geolocation to her friend. She asked whether she can use my Whatsapp. I said I don't have Whatsapp, but I have Messenger abd Viber. She looked at me very bewildered and asked, "You don't have Whatsapp? Why would you use Messenger?" I explained to her that in Europe we use Messenger and Viber, not Whatsapp. She thought I'm crazy. In the end I gave her hotspot and she left me to my crazy Messengering.

<comment> shady-lady Dunno where in Europe you're based but WhatsApp is the defacto messaging app in Irl & UK

<comment><USER9> Same in the Netherlands, Germany and Spain. I saw an article that in the Netherlands it apparently is installed on 90% of all smartphones. As far as I know, WhatsApp is pretty much the default in the EU with the exception of Scandinavian countries. Norway, Sweden, Finland are more often to be found on Messenger.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm from an African country where Whatsapp has played a major role in the political uprising against autocratic governments. Its power to mobilize the masses to go on the streets and protest is incredible. Radios and TV stations couldn't do that due to the pressure and their fear of being shut down by authorities. But Authorities have found a way to mute Whatsapp: shutting down the Internet. Just search : "Internet or Whtasapp shut down in Cameroun, Gabon, DR Congo or Togo" to find out. We are currently looking for alternatives to Whatsapp messenger that can work even when the Net is down. Suggestions are welcome.

<comment><USER11> mesh net, but they'll just bring the power down. maybe solar-powered with battery backup? but that gets expensive.

<comment><USER12> but hopefully coming down considerably. Watch this youtube vide of Tony Seba [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0) (Stanford University futurist Tony Seba spent the last decades studying technological disruptions. He argues that the Electric Vehicle, battery storage, and solar power, along with autonomous vehicles, are a perfect example of a 10x exponential process which will wipe )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The interesting thing about WhatsApp is that most of my American friends haven't heard about it by the time it was acquired for $19B. One of the biggest success stories of a US based company that went global first.

Good luck to Brian on his next adventure.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm guessing his stock has vested and he can now cash it out. Good on him, it was a nice success story selling for as much as they did to Facebook.

<comment><USER15> Jam Koum already cashed out in 2016: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Koum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Koum)

<comment><USER16> shh... He wants to make a bitter comment, let him be

<comment><USER17> Who's making a bitter comment?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> While I understand why the founder would leave at this point, WhatsApp is probably the platform with the most upside gain opportunity in existence today.

It has proved that a new paradigm of software development is ready to be opened up in the developing world, has small and big businesses knocking down the door to get in, and the highest daily active user base around. The only downside is how they've failed to scale to accomidate the opportunity.

But maybe they are right to go slow as they have network lock in.

<comment><USER19> What is this upside gain opportunity you speak of?

From my limited understanding - WhatsApp merely made free (or extremely cheap) texting possible, bypassing cellular providers who charged an arm and a leg for text messages. That's their contribution. Is there something else? What's this new paradigm of software development?

<comment><USER18> Micro-interfaces & payments being pushed via messaging. Tens of millions of businesses area already trying to hack it together via WhatsApp's existing features. For an existing example look at WeChat, which has limited application outside China but represents WhatsApp's future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> My only issue with whatsapp is how the data is stored in a central place. I am a person switching between ios and android and I have lost a lot of data. Plus even has issue in the same device after formatting.

I am not a big fan of having my mobile number as my identity as I keep moving around and change my mobile when I get a better package. I wanted an app that assign me a unique id and I can share in that my current mobile number where people can call me in.

Just yesterday, I was looking at a phone running all the various IM apps and whatsapp was the lowest with 18mb, IMO was 40mb while facebook was 100+ mb. not sure if it was the messenger alone or facebook + messenger.

Facebook doesn't seems to be interested in improving whatsapp.

</comment><comment><USER16> Hope now WhatsApp start caring more about business and integrations. As basically the only option for communication software in Latin America, it feels a lot behind.

<comment><USER18> Out of real curiosity, what business integrations would be at the top of your list?

<comment><USER21> Being able to pay someone, being able to command something out of the app. Being more like WeChat, literally.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> That's almost 3 years (October 6th 2014) since FB's acquisition, social media would have been much different today had they acquired Snapchat.

</comment><comment><USER23> New foundation, or maybe he finally got a job at Twitter?: [https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/1895942068](https://twitter.com/brianacton/status/1895942068)

(The backstory is: Brian Acton was rejected from Facebook and Twitter in 2009)

</comment><comment><USER24> How will this affect their direction and approach as far as the end user is concerned?

</comment><comment><USER25> Sharing a mobile-only link? Really?

[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-whatsapp- founder/whatsapp-...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-whatsapp- founder/whatsapp-co-founder-brian-acton-to-leave-company-idUSKCN1BO05Y)

<comment><USER26> Odd that this comment is collapsed by default, while the garbage comment below it is below 0, but expanded by default.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> WhatsApp is so DEAD.

<comment><USER28> Off topic, but what's up with an 800 day old account with no submissions and only this as it's first comment?

<comment><USER27> Because, Facebook is ruining WhatsApp.

Facebook sells information of its users. And yet people are happily feeding their data.

Even WhatsApp's founders were not happy with the Facebook's policy. For them it was a mistakes that they became a product of Facebook.

Yes, I've a problem with that. Don't you think its legit?

<comment><USER28> It just seems like a strange first topic after 800 days in read-only mode</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Create a short link to any quote on the Internet - <AUTHOR> http://tldr.es

<comment><AUTHOR> Due to "numerous" requests I decided to revive my weekend project. This free service allows you creating a short link to any citation on a Website. There are limitations yet, like Websites that require log-in, pagination, but in most cases this should become a handy tool for social active people on the Internet :-)</comment>


Urho3D – C++ game engine with HTML5 examples - <AUTHOR> http://urho3d.github.io/HTML5-samples.html

<comment><USER2> There seem to be quite a few videos on YouTube too.

[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=urho3d](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=urho3d)

</comment><comment> def- And there's a Nim wrapper for Urho3D:

[https://github.com/3dicc/Urhonimo](https://github.com/3dicc/Urhonimo) [http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/870](http://forum.nim-lang.org/t/870)

<comment><USER3> Oh wow, that's impressive. I'm guessing it was relatively simple to generate full bindings because it's already been written to have bindings for Lua and Angelscript? I assume that means the authors avoided fancy C++ code so that binding generators work correctly?

<comment><USER4> From what I have heard from Araq (who maintains Urhonimo) Urho3D does use some fancy C++ stuff, so it took a bit of work to improve c2nim to handle it. Also, unless I made that clear, the Lua/AngelScript "bindings" are not full bindings of Urho3D - instead they are integrated as scripting engines within Urho3D, although a pretty deep integration and with tons of examples.

And oh, Urhonimo was yesterday upgraded to Urho3D 1.4, but Araq needs to ... clean it up and push it :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I did try out the engine some month ago, and was positively surprised. It compiled easily on Linux and all the examples (and there are plenty) worked out of the box, which can not be said of most projects providing a graphics pipeline.

</comment><comment><USER6> This is super impressive. I would suspect that the uptake would be massive if there was the ability to import existing unity projects with little effort for the developer.

<comment><USER7> I really doubt it.

First, Unity already can do it.

Second, I am not impressed with WebGL vs what native offers, other than geek cool factor.

<comment><USER8> I think you got it the other way around. My <insert computer illiterate relative> is never going to dare to install anything native. But she can now use apps that require 3D thanks to WebGL.

WebGL is not where the geek cool factor is, at least not yet. Native might be, isn't that why those $500 graphics cards sell? WebGL brings 3D to the non- geeks.

<comment><USER9> Seems to me that it's the computer-illiterate relatives that install all kinds of crap...

<comment><USER8> Yeah. They mess up their computer. Once. After that they're scared to ever install anything again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The HTML5 samples do not work with Safari on my Mac.

[Log] loading /home/travis/build/urho3d/Build/bin/Urho3D.js.data from remote (01_HelloWorld.js, line 1) [Error] NotFoundError: DOM IDBDatabase Exception 8: An operation failed because the requested database object could not be found. transaction (01_HelloWorld.js, line 1) cacheRemotePackage (01_HelloWorld.js, line 1) (anonymous function) (01_HelloWorld.js, line 1) onload (01_HelloWorld.js, line 1)</comment>


Believing You Can Get Smarter Makes You Smarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.apa.org/research/action/smarter.aspx

<comment><USER4> One of the very first posts I wrote on my personal blog in 2007 was about Dweck's "Fixed Mindset vs Growth Mindset" (based on a graphic by Nigel Holmes):

[http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth- mind...](http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset- which-one-are-you/)

Still one of the most popular posts there.

I really wish this concept was taught to young children. I bet it could really make a difference.

<comment><USER5> Yes, it could lead to disaster.

Encouraging children to aim beyond their means is a very bad idea.

They will have very ambitious goals and will not settle for what they consider beneath them.

This is a recipe for unemployment in the vast majority of cases.

<comment><USER6> How exactly do you know a child's means are, especially in the face of science that the brain's ability is malleable?

There's a huge difference between saying "You don't seem to be very good at math, why don't you stop trying and do something easy instead" and "This seems to be hard for you, keep working hard at it and it will get easier over time. A brain is like a muscle, it gets stronger when you use it"

<comment><USER5> What is the extent of this malleability? It's probably quite small compared to innate intelligence.

<comment><USER7> In either case since you don't know what it is how much should you assume the child is not capable of?

<comment><USER5> It's all about risk.

There is no scientific consensus that the brain is malleable in any significant way.

Aiming within one's apparent means will likely result in employment.

<comment><USER8> It's the tepid nature of this statement that I am most against. Despite the fact it's also just downright wrong - the malleability of the brain is close to miraculous and studied heavily in many areas of science.

Rats that are kept in cages devoid of adornment have smaller, less dense, brains than rats that have toys and varied sonsory stimulation. It's simple, the more things we have with which to think, the better and more complex our thinking can be.

Think Orwell's Newspeak and Herman Hesse's Glass bead games.

What is awful here is that you seem to be convinced that mediocrity is a worthwhile tactic for people and for children... and I think this rips the heart from the very idea of what it means to be alive and better oneself.

<comment><USER9> Mediocrity is a worthwhile tactic if you're not optimizing for money or status, but, say, happiness. Ambition can cause a lot of pain, particularly in feelings that you have not lived up to your potential (I've seen plenty of that happening).

YC readers are understandably strongly biased against such values of take-it- easy life. I don't subscribe to such values either, but they can not be straightforwardly discounted as inferior just like that. I would argue that understanding your limitations is just as important as developing your abilities.

<comment><USER8> The point is not about money or status, or pain and joy, but about the willingness to confidently _feel into_ [1] these things. Mediocrity robs you of your passion. The point is not that failure teaches, or that children should not be built up by an overbearing, over-parental, society, but that all beings should seek to FEEL. It's a curious state that foreshadows knowing, and to be content with mediocrity would greatly reduce the variety of sensations that a moral, considered life can _hope_ to expect in this world. It's existential suicide. And it grieves me dearly, so I get all righteous and pontificate.

[1:Einfuhlung, Johann Gottfried Herder, Isaiah Berlin]

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The study doesn't prove that what the title claims. What it proves is that you can improve your grades, which is not equivalent to becoming smarter. An alternative explanation is that believing makes you more motivated, which results in better grades.

Not saying that it's not possible, just that the title is not a conclusion from the study.

</comment><comment><USER11> And now reading this will make you smarter in the future, because you will believe you can become smarter, hence you will.

</comment><comment><USER12> The implied message, that one should advocate the malleability of IQ not because it's true but because it's motivational, is a little troubling. If you're coaching an 8th-grade gym class, everyone will probably perform better if you pull each of them aside individually and tell them they're showing real potential and should try out for the team. That is, until they figure out you were lying.

<comment><USER13> But the fact that "many psychological studies suggest" that intelligence (not IQ specifically) is changeable makes this a different scenario than outright lying to students as in your gym class example.

Whether or not the students are actually getting smarter is another question. But it doesn't look to me like anyone's getting lied to.

(edit: refactoring language)

<comment><USER14> Intelligence may be changeable, but this is a truism: I can 'change' my intelligence by eating some paint chips or taking a baseball bat to my head.

What isn't suggested by 'many psychological studies' is that IQ can be reliably, long-term, and over general populations by any particular technique. And that's what everyone _wants_ to exist and will read into a statement like that. So, based on the abstract, this study boils down to a good motivation technique.

(I say reliably because with 0.05 significance there will be many false results; long-term because short-term studies will show anything you want them to; and over general populations because there are small deprived groups in which one can easily boost IQ long-term - eg. children in the Balkans with iodine deficiencies.)

EDIT: Also note that the researchers point to increased grades - <USER2> increased IQ scores. If they have enough participation, time, and cooperation from these students to do all this teaching & motivating, then it is inexplicable - if they think they're actually boosting IQ - to have not given the students a quick hour-long IQ test; but this omission is quite understandable if they don't think their intervention is actually increasing anyone's IQ but their motivation.

<comment><USER15> After edit: I would be very glad to see citations to research sources that back up any of the statements made in your comment. I would want to look especially at methodological issues

<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>

if a study claims that something can't be done (rather than claiming that something hasn't been done).

After further edit: There is recent research showing that learning can actually change brain neural connections,

<http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09344/1019898-115.stm>

so I think this year the burden of proof is on the people who claim lack of malleability, since malleability of human brain function is a replicated research result.

<comment><USER14> > After further edit: There is recent research showing that learning can > actually change brain neural connections

Yes, _of course_ learning changes neural connections. How else would it work? Changing some chemicals won't get a brain very far.

But this is as far away from changing IQ as demonstrating the Casimir effect gets you to a tractor beam sucking in the _Millennium Falcon_. The famous study of the [London taxi](<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/677048.stm>) drivers shows they have changed connections, alright, even enlarged hippocampi - <USER3> nothing about increased brain mass or volume, because it's a zero-sum gain.

Now, as far as my specific assertions go. The 0.05 point is basic statistics which I feel no need to justify. The short-term point flows out of the former (there's simply more noise when you do all your sampling over a few days or minutes, say), and short-term studies are particularly vulnerable to issues like testing effects; the Balkans thing I alluded to in enough detail that you could easily have googled it if you were genuinely curious: [http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=balkans%20IQ%20io...](http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=balkans%20IQ%20iodine%20deficiency%20study) And iodine deficiency isn't something that's purely long-term either - you can see effects after 24 weeks in this study: <http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/83/1/108> (note the high significance).

The burden of proof is not on those who claim lack of malleability - not that there are any such people here - but on those who claim IQ boosts without good long-term IQ testing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm trying to search the internets to see if I can find the details of the 3 hour presentation and discussion on the malleability of intelligence given to the 7th graders using a science based article that describes how intelligence develops.

Has anyone else searched and discovered?

From this part under Practical Applications: "Blackwell, Dweck, and Trzesniewski (2002) recently replicated and applied this research with seventh-grade students in New York City. During the first eight weeks of the spring term, these students learned about the malleability of intelligence by reading and discussing a science-based article that described how intelligence develops."

</comment><comment><USER17> Observation: I used to be a good hockey player, I have not practiced for 7 years so now I am bad. I also used to be a mathematics student at a high research university 18 years ago. Now I can no longer calculate (whole number) quartics in my head. I have also found that if I practice on IQ test related questions I achieve a higher IQ score in other IQ tests. Appreciate the article but would suggest "exercising" your intelligence can make you more intelligent in that field.

</comment><comment><USER18> They've also done similar research with athletes. When given athletes missed field goal kicks, they perceived the goal as being smaller. "Missed kicks make brain see smaller goal post" performed by researchers at Purdue i believe.</comment>


HTTP Immutable Responses - <AUTHOR> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8246 <comment><USER2> For more on the rationale behind this feature, see:

[https://www.ietf.org/mail- archive/web/httpbisa/current/msg25...](https://www.ietf.org/mail- archive/web/httpbisa/current/msg25463.html)

[https://bitsup.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/cache-control- immutabl...](https://bitsup.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/cache-control- immutable.html)

Rough summary:

> At Facebook, ... we've noticed that despite our nearly infinite expiration > dates we see 10-20% of requests (depending on browser) for static resource > being conditional revalidation. We believe this happens because UAs perform > revalidation of requests if a user refreshes the page.

> A user who refreshes their Facebook page isn't looking for new versions of > our _javascript_. Really they want updated content from our site. However > UAs refresh all subresoruces of a page when the user refreshes a web page. > This is designed to serve cases such as a weather site that says <img src="" > ...

> Without an additional header, web sites are unable to control UA's behavior > when the user uses the refresh button. UA's are rightfully hesitant in any > solution that alters the long standing semantics of the refresh button (for > example, not refreshing subresources).

<comment><USER3> What's the hurry to optimize away the revalidation requests when the user clicks reload? Is it just beancounter mindset about saving a few "304 Not modified" responses? In that case they shouldn't count the percentage of requests, but percentage of bandwidth or CPU seconds. Tiny responses are much cheaper with HTTP/2, so be sure to benchmark with that.

<comment><USER4> At Facebook scale, the sum of all those "304 Not Modified" responses is probably a significant amount of resources.

<comment><USER3> I'm not sure it's a good argument to take up the biggest companies and then tally up effects of a micro improvement. You could argue for all kinds of complexity increasing changes resulting in %0.01 efficiency improvements this way.

<comment><USER5> At my company, 304s account for 3% of our CDN requests.

<comment><USER3> 304 requests are so tiny that you probably end up in the order of 0.01%.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think a better way to handle this would be to use subresource integrity [1]. Then, if the browser's cached version matches the hash, it can be sure that it doesn't need to do any requests.

[1] [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/Security/](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/)

</comment><comment><USER7> It would be far better to have user agents handle caching headers correctly instead of creating another configuration option (which will likely suffer from the same implementation problems).

 _cache-control: private_ with either sliding or concrete expiration time already handles this.

<comment><USER8> cache-control: private doesn't seem to imply that a resource won't ever change and on page refresh the browsers have to check if the resource has been updated, immutable would avoid the 304's responses cascade.

<comment><USER7> That's the entire point of the expiration time. Use a 2 year range and it's effectively immutable. No content will stay on device forever anyway and headers can easily be set to a smaller time-frame or _must-revalidate_ if the content owner wants it.

Browsers mistakenly continue checking for new copies when they shouldn't within the expiration time. Fixing poor implementations with more standards never works well.

<comment><USER8> The problem is that servers are allowed to update their resources at any time without waiting for any specific expiration time. So when a user instructs it's browser to refresh the page, usually expecting to get the most up to date version, the browser has to choose between giving the still valid, but maybe not completely updated, cached version or actually checking if the resource has been updated.

Immutable makes it clear that the server won't update the resource in place and will handle updates by generating a new one so the browser can happily avoid checking those resources on page refresh.

<comment><USER9> And many people are almost certainly going to find that they actually need to either recall an old immutable thing, or mutate it.

Also, I will certainly want to clear out my browser's cache on a regular basis. I do not want it keeping immutable things just because they shouldn't ever change.

<comment><USER10> You can't 'recall' something you already sent out to browsers, and if you need to mutate then it's easy to make a new URL.

This header won't make browsers cache data any differently. It skips a step when the cache is being read from.

<comment><USER9> But in the current world, you can serve new content on the conditional check that caches currently do.

That said, I am ultimately for this. I think. There is plenty of data showing that this is a low hanging fruit to hit.

<comment><USER10> The conditional check that they do _sometimes_. Now half your users see the new version and half see the old version. Not much of a recall.

<comment><USER9> Still more of a recall than will be possible in the new world. And you can always detect the old code and prompt users to refresh. (Typically happens on a restart.)

Again, though, I am ultimately for this. I just remain skeptical of any panacea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What does immutable really mean when you only rent a domain name? I think about this occasionally with domains and email addresses, they've become a trusted piece of information, but over time the ownership of that thing changes, does make me wonder about fraud in the future when sizeable companies die off and their domains free up.

<comment><USER12> In this case, if a company dies and a malicious actor gets the domain, there's not much they can do besides tell the browser to load those assets - but they could probably just take a copy of the original site and serve a copy of those assets themselves.

The attack might work the other way around: the attacker buys a bunch of domain names, serves "sleeper" malicious JS files with this on common paths (say, the paths used by Wordpress and other common CMSs), then releases the domain. When the new owner installs a CMS and start serving their site, the browser loads the malicious JS instead, which is now running under the new site's Origin (security context).

<comment><USER13> But to make this attack work, browsers would have to visit this site before the new owner takes it over, in order to receive and cache the malicious JS. And if you can make people receive malicious JS, you've already got your attack vector - immutable caching isn't needed.

<comment><USER12> _if you can make people receive malicious JS, you 've already got your attack vector_

No, because a malicious JS file by itself can't do much. The attack vector is the malicious JS running on the new site, with permissions to steal session cookies and interact with the application. That's why caching without verification is important: to make sure the browser uses the cached malicious JS instead of fetching the new one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Nice to see this has made it through the standards process -- the `immutable` keyword is tremendously useful for systems that store and provide actual immutable data, e.g. content-addressed distributed systems.

</comment><comment><USER15> It would be nice to have strong resource pinning. I've been in contract situations where coordinating with in-house IT for a new server deployment would have been a massive, go-nowhere headache, while throwing a webapp together on my own and self-hosting would've been easy but a big problem wrt company policy on data export. Resource pinning solves this by bringing us into the realm of "auditable". Strong resource pinning would look something like this RFC, except the browser would refuse to accept new resource deployments without deliberate consent of the client. (Something that can be bypassed with a hard refresh, as in this RFC, is not strong enough.)

Other situations I imagine would benefit from this are web crypto and HIPAA compliance.

</comment><comment><USER16> I have a feeling this will end up like HSTS. It sounds really great at first, then a bunch of folks will get burned by it (just wait until somebody accidentally sets it for /index.html or whatever), and finally the general recommendation will be to stop using it altogether ("more harm than good").

Forever is such a long time.

Besides, aren't there already ways to say "cache this resource for <acceptable timeframe>"?

</comment><comment><USER17> This is also known as key-based cache expiration, detailed by DHH here: [https://signalvnoise.com/posts/3113-how-key-based-cache- expi...](https://signalvnoise.com/posts/3113-how-key-based-cache-expiration- works)

You never worry about when to expire your cache entries if the key changes every time the item does. It's nice to finally see cache-busting coming out of the woods.

<comment><USER18> You can already use that kind of cache expiration with HTTP of course, and many of us do -- but you can't _tell the user-agent_ or other client that you are using it. The best you can do is set a far-future expires date. Some agents/clients will still do HEAD/If-Modified-Since requests to check if it _really_ changed before your expire date.

So this is a new thing, properly called immutable responses, to tell the client that they really can treat this (in various ways) as a completely immutable response.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I like the idea of this. This would be very useful for versioned resources (e.g., images, JS, and CSS files) because it would eliminate unnecessary requests for them after they're cached.

The example of a 1 year cache time seems a little extreme, though. I think a month would be better.

<comment><USER20> A 1 year cache time doesn't force the browser to hang on to it for a year, it just lets the browser know that if it's seen that resource in the last year it shouldn't bother getting it again. The browser is still free to dump whatever it wants to reduce its footprint.

<comment><USER18> Of course the browser/agent still can with a response tagged immutable too. There will never be a standard that _forces_ agents to hold on to cached content regardless of their disk space availability and needs.

But the immutable keyword gives an additional clue to the agent about semantics, to inform caching.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Chrome is not going to get this:

[https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=611416...](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=611416#c46)

Instead, when the user attempts a full-page reload, Chrome will revalidate the resource in the URL bar, but not subresources (they will come from the browser cache, if the cache-control header checks out):

[https://blog.chromium.org/2017/01/reload-reloaded-faster- and...](https://blog.chromium.org/2017/01/reload-reloaded-faster-and-leaner- page_26.html)

<comment><USER22> Yeah I thought that was the current behaviour, and shift-cmd-r actually invalidates all

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Section 3. Security Considerations

"Clients SHOULD ignore the immutable extension from resources that are not part of an authenticated context such as HTTPS. Authenticated resources are less vulnerable to cache poisoning."

This must NOT read SHOULD. It must read MUST! Otherwise, your computer will be subject to an executable planting vulnerability.

I'm surprised they don't have a much larger list of security considerations. There are many other issues that can happen.

<comment><USER16> If "an authenticated context such as HTTPS" isn't being used -- regardless of the presence of this extension -- isn't your computer _already_ "subject to an executable planting vulnerability"?

<comment><USER23> Maybe. That isn't exactly true. This adds the ability to persist a new threat.

There is a temporal difference. An attacker may wish to plant something today, in a coffee shop, that would execute in a protected environment, tomorrow. Immutability of caching can only help an attacker.

Yes, there are other ways for an attacker do this, but there is no reason to add to more ways! That's why the web is in its current state.

I see how you put "executable planting vulnerability" in quotes. Sometimes (in the current marketing), these are called APTs, but they have been around forever. e.g. Think of dll planting in Windows and the millions of attacks and three or four new API sets from Microsoft that resulted from that single ability to plant a dll in the search path.

This type of persistence can also be called incubation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It's sad that there's still no good way to do deployment based expiration of assets without horrible hacks like sticking the asset checksum in the URL. I know that none of my assets will ever change unless a deployment occurs, and even then, most of them won't change. HTTP doesn't seem to support this use case well at all.

<comment><USER25> What do you mean by "deployment-based"? You want things to expire each time you "git pull" on the server?

<comment><USER26> Wait you're actually running git on production boxes? Doesn't that mean your entire build toolchain also lives on production?

The last company I worked for did that and everything was much slower and fragile than it would've been had we deployed packaged artifacts instead.

<comment><USER18> Eh, heroku seems to handle it fine.

<comment><USER27> No, Heroku has a separate build step before it deploys to your dynos.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> What happens when wrongly configured servers or frameworks with default settings implement this too aggressively? Browser vendors want their product to work as expected when the user hits refresh, so will be forced to either voliolate the standard or show stale content.

<comment><USER16> Per _foota_ [0]:

      Clients SHOULD NOT issue a conditional request during the response's
      freshness lifetime (e.g., upon a reload) unless explicitly overridden
      by the user (e.g., a force reload).

The server is still going to serve up the resource when requested. This behavior is for the client-side of things (browser).

[0]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15262108](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15262108)</comment></comment>