Ask HN: Is Java a wise career investment? - <AUTHOR>

Hello,
I have been working for close to 2 1/2 years as a Java developer, and seeing all the job postings on HN as of late, I have been wondering if it is wise to keep learning and investing in Java or if I should consider broadening my horizons by learning other programming languages(I have dabbled a bit in Python and Ruby so far).
Since this question is quite dependent on geographic & economic context, I will provide some more detail. I am living in Romania, and have no plans of relocating. Currently the local job market has a lot of Java openings since enterprise clients from Western Europe are sending their projects to us to reduce development costs. How long this trend will last is quite uncertain, and this makes me wonder if Java is a worthwhile investment.
I have been considering starting to freelance but Java doesn't really seem to be the language in demand. The same goes for doing remote work for companies from outside my country.
I will also mention that I have a CS degree, so I know the universal theory behind programming like OOP, design patterns, algorithms etc.
So, in conclusion what would the kind people here at HN recommend? Sticking with Java, or switching to some more in demand language? <comment><USER2> HN is mainly startups who need to develop code quickly and be as 'in fashion' as possible. Java is more focused on long term, reliable code. For a general idea of the 'real' popularity of a language outside of the silicon valley startup scene, something like this is a better indicator:

[http://www.google.co.za/trends/explore#q=java%20developer%2C...](http://www.google.co.za/trends/explore#q=java%20developer%2C%20ruby%20developer%2C%20python%20developer%2C%20c%23%20developer&cmpt=q)

So it really depends on what you want to do - if you want to work in a large multinational or contact out to larger companies, then Java is a far better choice than Ruby or Python as the job demand is much higher.

If you want to jet out to silicon valley and shack it up with some guys who probably can't afford breakfast the next morning, then Ruby and Python are THE thing to go for! Not that you won't find enterprises using these languages, they're just much further apart and the demand level for these jobs is usually through the roof.

 _Flamebait_ It's still true though.

<comment><USER3> As an enterprise sysadmin, I concur that Java is focused for long term code maintenance. Reliability of the JVM is for another discussion :)

We do have Rails and other "fun" language applications, but there are few people who know how to write or debug them. Mostly it'd be the small internal teams that use it. Larger teams would still be using Java. Phone application development is a similarly rare skill, hence the outsourcing.

Besides Java, we use copious amounts of .NET. That could be another area you want to focus on in addition to Java if you want to stay in the enterprise space.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Try to learn Android and you raise your market value multifold. I would however though learn a scripting language to have a complementary skill-set and put a framework on top of that. I'd recommend Ruby --> Ruby on Rails.

<comment><AUTHOR> Excuse my ignorance, but why would learning Android increase market value by more than say something like Ruby?

<comment><USER5> Android is built on Java so learning Android programming is as simple as learning the ins and outs of an Android program rather than a whole new language.

Android won't necessarily increase your market value more than Ruby but it will be a much easier thing to learn considering you already know Java.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Java is a good thing to know, but I suspect that Java-the-language may not have a massive future. It's pretty telling that some of the major java IDE developers are also pushing their own JVM languages (eclipse: Xtend, jetbrains: Kotlin).

There's some interesting stuff going on in other JVM languages, I'm particularly interested in Scala and Clojure.

I think you've provided yourself with an excellent starting point having learnt java, but it would be a bad idea to stop there.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have no intention of stopping. I guess my curiosity was more along the lines of whether it is worth it to dig deeper and learn more Java, or if it would be better to go for some other languages.

I'm also pondering about switching jobs for this, since the best way to learn in my opinion is to force yourself into real projects with new technologies and not just hack on some small projects for a couple of hours each week.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Well what do you want to do? What kind of problems do you like to solve? Then look around and see what languages are commonly used and why they are used to solve that category of problems. Then try those languages, and form your own opinion.

I personally think languages are easy to learn enough to get stuff done. API's and libraries with their uses, corner cases is much more work. i.e. the java language specification is just one little book. But once you add all the common API's and libraries and how to interact with most common systems. i.e. DBMS and networks you have a small library.

In the end you are paid for solutions to problems, so learning to understand and solve problems is the most important.

</comment><comment><USER8> It depends what you want.

A) If you want to make more money or look for career change, then you have to listen to market and learn whatever it needs or pays well.

B) If your goal is to do long term career investment, then keep learning Java and make yourself an expert of it. To become "expert", you inevitably will have to learn a lot things that are beyond Java language and platform. Later on, these knowledge can be easily reused in other languages.

A) is short term, B) is long term. How about allocate 50% of your learning to each of them, then adjust allocation when you feel you need to?

</comment><comment><USER9> i don't think java as a language is a better investment than others however java as an ecosystem is.

jvm is expanding, concurrency and scalability is more important than ever and jvm can provide you these tools. you can learn about jvm optimization, languages like groovy and scala, web frameworks like grails and play.

and of course a little bit of python and ruby won't hurt. :)

</comment><comment><USER10> learn couple of languages not only java but remember java is weapon of choice in enterprise businesses

<comment><USER11> very big +1! But not only languages, techniques like TDD, BDD and so on, concepts like prototyping and frameworks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Actually, I don't find any difficult when I change from one language to another. It's not much different, if you are looking for getting a hot job in the market, just playing with ruby, javascript [ coffee .. ] and soon you will get into it pretty quickly.

</comment><comment><USER13> I see no reason, why as an experienced Java developer you couldn't become javascript/ruby/python/scala/whatever expert. There is not that much to learn in Java.

</comment><comment><USER14> Hard to tell the future, but I'm betting on Scala. Relevant for enterprise, gaining momentum for startups, and I think has the best of both worlds.

</comment><comment><USER15> Java is a too verbose language, and it will eventually be replaced by something else. But the JVM will stay for long (it is the actual runtime standard for the enterprise). So now, you'll have to bet on the next JVM language: \- Groovy ? \- Kotlin ? \- Ceylon ? \- Scala ? \- Other ?

I actually take a bet on Scala and its functional approach.

</comment><comment><USER16> As a first step, you could expand to other JVM languages (like Clojure, Scala, Kotlin, ...)</comment>


Free vaporwave radio station, includes some future funk and experimental genres - <AUTHOR> https://plaza.one/ <comment><AUTHOR> it's a shame a nice project like this one goes straight to archive</comment>


Ohio.gov/social - <AUTHOR> https://ohio.gov/social/

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't have any baseline to compare this to, but when I saw it I was fairly impressed with the amount of active social media participation in Ohio's government.</comment>


Songza is Joining Google - <AUTHOR> http://daily.songza.com/google/ <comment><USER2> I think the reality here is that you can't be a tiny startup in areas like music. Licensing costs can kill you. Much better to be backed by a bigger organisation.

<comment><USER3> I learned a similar lesson in another domain.

Songza's headphone-specific equalizer made my Sennheiser HD 558 on iPhone much more enjoyable with the profile for HD 580. Hope they provide a profile for HD 558. Hardware headphone amplifiers are obsolete. Software equalizers are the solution.

<comment><USER4> > Hardware headphone amplifiers are obsolete. Software equalizers are the > solution.

Huh? Equalization and amplification are rather orthogonal concerns.

<comment><USER3> I should have limited my comments to mobile listeners with mid to low impedance headphones (which are the vast majority). I used to listen to iPhone with HD 580 (300 ohm) directly, with full volume and no amplifier/equalizer. It's loud enough for sensitive ears, and very enjoyable, better than HD 558. With amplifiers the sound is a little better, but not worth the inconvenience. For mid to low impedance headphones, amplifiers are often used to improve sound quality, not volume. Software equalizers (like those in Songza) would work well, and further shrink the market of amplifiers. Remember that in this mobile internet age, the American consumers have voted for Beats, I'm not sure what for, perhaps the overall user experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I just discovered Songaza because of this, and... awesome!

I work for Google, so I know I'm totally biased here, but Play Music is pretty great, and it does recommend good new music to me, but the playlists by activity, mood, setting, genre of Songaza already look much better.

I can't wait till there's some integration and I can save Songaza playlists to my library and pin them to my phone.

<comment><USER6> I'm really satisfied with Google Play All Access. You can integrate your own library and add songs that you like while streaming. Since adding the songs to my library is pretty much indistinguishable from ownership, I basically never need to purchase another song again.

Also, since Google Now began stalking my search habits, I get all kinds of useful recommendations about when artists I like release new material.

The acquisition of Songza will likely make a great product even better.

<comment><USER7> one reason to purchase is if you want to download the MP3s (or support the artists directly).

The recommendations are really great, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Play Music sorely needed this - lots of great curated lists in addition to albums and playlists. Can't wait for the integration - I really like Songza for those times I'm working or driving and don't feel like playing close attention to building a playlist.

</comment><comment><USER9> Congrats to Songza! I really like Songza and discovered many great music I otherwise would not have found with the service. It has become my go to for music discovery.

I hope Songza continues and become even better. :)

</comment><comment><USER10> _We can't think of a better company to join in our quest to provide the perfect soundtrack for everything you do._

Erm.. you got it backwards, folks.

 _No immediate changes to Songza are planned, other than making it faster, smarter, and even more fun to use._

If Songza was Youtube-like size, then yes. They are tiny so, yeah, unlikely.

</comment><comment><USER11> Oh wow! After Spotify started offering curated playlists, I thought Songza was dead in the water. This is probably the best result the team could have asked for.

</comment><comment><USER12> This made me sad. i used Songza for a while and actually preferred it over Pandora. Glad for the people that cashed out, but that means that the service will either die soon or it will be Google-plusified: something I clearly don't agree with.

So for anyone looking to cancel their account as I did, it's not really advertised anywhere. Go to legacy.songza.com, log in, click on your profile->settings then you will find a big red delete button.

I only discovered this after I tried to submit feedback asking how to cancel and got an automated suggestion with the above steps.

It's interesting you have to go to a legacy site to do this.

<comment><USER13> Just food for thought, not looking to spark an argument or anything -- doesn't it seem like canceling your account _now_ is a little premature? Why not wait and see what changes actually happen, and cancel in protest to those?

<comment><USER12> Not premature at all, I simply do not agree to using Google products (or rather I do not agree to their Terms of Service) and was providing a hard-to- find delete button should others need to use it (for whatever reason).

Indeed I'm not trying to start a "OMG everyone cancel your accounts!!" train, but I can understand why you (and whoever downvoted me) viewed it as a protest cancellation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's curious reading most of the comments...seems like most of those commenting hadn't actually used Songza.

Hand's down it was the best selection of curated playlists that were easy to discover. Spotify had something roughly similar, but you had to search specifically for it, where Songza was more categorized. I kinda like thinking of it as the very early days of the Web -- Songza was the early audio Yahoo ... that was cross platform.

I've seen some great lists from Nokia Music on Windows Phone and some decent lists from iTunes Radio, but Songza was generally better overall.

I'll keep using it, so long as it is a stand alone app. Once that ceases, I may move elsewhere.

<comment><USER15> My impression too. Tried 8rtacks, but the limited skipping and the terrible ui put me off.

It seems they are now redirecting all playlist URLs to daily.songza.com though - can I still access them in some other way? Being able to import them to Spotify would be killer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I remember when Aza first announced this on a list way back in the day. I had no idea they were still ploughing away, glad to hear it evolved. If I recall correctly they were originally just scraping audio soundtracks from youtube music videos.

I'm curious, generally speaking does a founder still have skin in the game at this stage or do people generally get bought out?

I know it's a naive question for most of you, just curious how things generally play.

[http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/songza](http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/songza)

</comment><comment><USER17> Apps that curate music seem to be pretty viral in usage. I feel like you can't say the current growth rate of users will really pay off.

Apple tried iTunes Radio and that failed so they snatched Beats. Google Play is not gaining enough traction so they've now snatched Songza.

Is Amazon going to join the gang? Or perhaps Facebook acquire Spotify to up the ante?

</comment><comment><USER18> Hadn't heard of Songza but just gave it a download.

I like the "Decade" breakdown and various genres you can filter by. The lack of genres or granular filters in Rdio is my biggest gripe with them (apart from my few issues with Rdio, it's still my favorite music streaming service).

</comment><comment><USER19> Congrats to the Songza team. One of my favorite ways to listen to music by far.

</comment><comment><USER20> I wonder how much cash they were sinking. They didn't earn any money at all, they were the literal definition of waiting for a buyout.

</comment><comment><USER21> Songza is an 8tracks clone made by connected people in the valley, funded by connected people in the valley, and bought by rich people in the valley. Their product is not as good as the competition (8tracks, spotify, soundcloud cover everything, maybe rdio has some pretty slick features too), but still they did incredibly well... It's weird. Most of their playlists are made by the songza team, I would love to see their numbers.

Anyway, if you're looking for crowdsourced playlists, I would just use 8tracks

</comment><comment><USER22> Awesome news for Songza. It's my goto app for curated playlists. I'm excited to see what the future will bring!

</comment><comment><USER23> There are other products doing exactly the same and also covering other pain- points like data encryption and the possibility to host your own "personal- dropbox". You may want to test Owncloud 7. Check this terminal.com snapshot that I just created as a demo: [https://terminal.com/tiny/fwv5ra8X8I](https://terminal.com/tiny/fwv5ra8X8I)

</comment><comment><USER24> Good for them, I love play music all access radio, but manually curated playlists are something else.

</comment><comment><USER25> Also, the old Songza interface was way better. Look there if you miss it. legacy.songza.com

</comment><comment><USER26> Very happy for Songza, use it everyday. As always, I hope they keep the service open.

</comment><comment><USER27> Anyone know of another equivalent music service, I refuse to touch Google products

<comment><USER28> The service I'm working on is still in its infancy, but I'd love to hear what people think of the concept; it basically helps musicians and photographers expose their content to a wider audience, and on the flip side, allows you to sit back and listen to a playlist of music whilst enjoying a beautiful photo slide show. The playlists are tailored to a user's mood, and you're able to filter the music based on genre. The website's voliyo.com, and if anyone's interested in signing up to the beta as a photographer or musician, feel free to message me for an invite code!

<comment><USER27> So, here'd be my concern with that. I very rarely put on music and just "experience" it. Usually when I put on music it's in the background while I work on other things. I can't imagine myself ever wanting to look at a photo slideshow while listening to music.

<comment><USER28> Thanks for the feedback! You're not alone in sharing this view, so I'd definitely like to try and find a conceptual workaround for those who like to keep their music open in a background tab.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> So Songza is basically a blog?

<comment><USER30> No, but the main page redirects to daily.songza.com without any indication if you're outside the US, apparently...

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Because Skynet isn't Skynet without Songza!

</comment><comment><USER32> A response to Apple buying Beats?

<comment><USER33> no where near the same magnitude

<comment><USER32> Similar magnitude to the beats streaming service.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Our incredible journey!

</comment><comment><USER35> so happy for elias and his team. this is a huge win for the queens tech community!

</comment><comment><USER36> Oh look, yet another music classification system that lists twelve different genres of music invented after the CD player but has one genre labelled "Classical" to cover several centuries of wildly varying musical styles.

<comment><USER37> Imagine how international listeners feel about music classification systems (nearly every one out there) that clump all international music into 'World Music'. Just looking at Indian music, there's probably a few dozen high level categories you can create for completely different genres of music.

North Indian, South Indian, Hindustani, Carnatic, Film music from maybe a dozen different languages that are wildly different, qawwalis, ghazals, Rabindra Sangeet, music from different periods of Indian cinema... I could go on... sigh.

<comment><USER38> Are there no Indian music services that do a better job?

<comment><USER39> There's Saavn, but it does a mediocre job IMO.

[http://www.saavn.com/](http://www.saavn.com/)

<comment><USER40> I wonder if they are even legal.

<comment><USER41> And why would you wonder so? Some insight please.

<comment><USER40> Creative industry in Asian country are highly disorganized. For India, one of the best possible way to watch any new content if either in movie theaters or live on television. Internet sucks and cable companies suck too that makes it pretty hard for folks to get content they actually want to watch. Tech savvy folks go for torrents and less techy folks buy pirated content from street vendors.

Insight is they are based off NY which makes they impervious to Indian laws. And personally, I haven't come across any good Indian website that gives you impression that you are buying legal content.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Bay Area Deep Learning School Day 1 Stream - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyovmAtoUx0 <comment><USER2> Does anybody knows if there is or will be recordings of this available for download?</comment>


Craft Coffee's Coffee DNA Project (YC S14) - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/18/craft-coffee/

<comment><USER2> If you're looking for actual DNA coffee, check this: [http://www.coffeegenome.org/research/ICGN_W3_concept_note.pd...](http://www.coffeegenome.org/research/ICGN_W3_concept_note.pdf)

:)

<comment><USER3> Absolutely. That's an awesome project. Our thing is about helping consumers find coffee they love.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Been a customer for 2+ years and love the service. It's actually helped me figure out what I like in coffee so hopefully this DNA project means I can get even more of those types that I like.

<comment><USER5> I messed with the survey a bit and noticed what you select from the roasters is what dictates your level. For example, Eight O-Clock coffee gave me the cheapest subscription level while choosing Sightglass gave me the most expensive. I'm curious to know which roasters fall under which model.

<comment><USER3> Yes, that's a small part of it. If you're currently paying $5 for a bag of coffee, you don't want a $25 super high-end bag. And vice-versa. But that's just a small part. A lot of the magic is in understanding the characteristics of the beans you like and how that relates to other beans. A lot of real science and real tech went into that side and we'll continue to pour resources into it.

<comment><USER5> Oh no doubt there is more too it, just a quick observation when I got the email about it. As I said in a previous comment, I may resign up. I noticed you added some favorites/ones of interest (Sightglass, Slate, Four Barrel, and Kuma). Is there any way to make recommendations to add/reach out to?

<comment><USER3> Yup. We love supporting new coffee roasters. roasters at craftcoffee dot com

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I used Craft Coffee for a few months about a year ago and was overall happy with it. Getting a variety of coffee is always nice, and the roaster selection wasn't bad. I ultimately ended up canceling because I was hoping for more variety from roasters, but I am noticing they have signed on a lot more roasters to be apart of the program so I may give it another go.

<comment><USER6> I've been trying to get added to Craft Coffee and MistoBox, but I almost feel like it's a beauty contest and I'm the "plain Jane with the great personality" that's the real catch!

www.darrinscoffee.com

<comment><USER3> We do blind evaluations so it's actually not a popularity contest. You can find more info for roasters here: [http://www.craftcoffee.com/partner](http://www.craftcoffee.com/partner)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For good coffee - go to Portland, Oregon.

I've had some of the best coffee I've ever had in North America there.

<comment><USER5> While Portland does have Stumptown and Heart, there is a lot of fantastic coffee from all over the country. Bay Area is stacked right now (Sightglass, Four Barrel, Ritual, Devout), PA has Square One, Seattle area has Slate and Kuma, Mid-west has Populace, Metropolis and Bow Truss, OQ in New Jersey, Tandem in Maine, Flat Track from Austin, Velo from Chattanooga, Irving Farm from NY, etc, etc, etc.

A lot of great coffee in the States right now.

<comment><USER7> Portland has a lot more than Stumptown and Heart. Spella, Coava, Extracto, Clive, Oblique .... and more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is great. As someone from South America I appreciate their efforts. I hope they do very well.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the kind words. Means a lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> They lost me here: [http://i.imgur.com/1hNk6vj.png](http://i.imgur.com/1hNk6vj.png)

I just wanted to read the subscription table...

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the feedback. There's actually an opt-out on the survey itself. Although we strongly encourage you to take the brief survey because every coffee drinker really is different, and we can only match you with coffee you'll love if you tell us a bit about yourself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Mike from Craft Coffee here. Happy to talk.

<comment><USER10> I try not to complain, but since you are here... I buy coffee from a local roaster. It isn't in your list when I try to go through the sign up process. I can't proceed with the sign up process unless I pick a company. Meanwhile, if I want to recommend my local roaster to you, I get presented with a WuFoo form. That's cool, but I have to give you my name and email (which I don't care to do) and there is no place for me to give you contact info for the local roaster I'm trying to submit. I then go back to the original signup form and think that I'll try to find some coffee I drink occasionally, just so I can get through the signup process. As I'm scanning the list I see some that I would call extremely common-place - could be bought anywhere - and start to wonder if I'm just not the target audience (even though our household drinks a lot of coffee and we are always interested in variety). Thus, didn't sign up.

<comment><USER3> Hey. Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate it. I think you're right about the contact info. We just want to be able to tell people when we add their request. But it should be optional. Re: the coffee list, I'm sorry that felt alienating. We do include all the most popular coffee companies in the country, but also hundreds of independents and adding more weekly. We think the service works great for any coffee drinker -- you can customize by roast, price, quantity and frequency, and our coffees all come fresh-roasted from independent roasters. So we've got you covered pretty much any way you can imagine.</comment></comment></comment>


Depression Among Entrepreneurs Is an Epidemic Nobody Is Talking About - <AUTHOR> http://thehustle.co/depression-among-entrepreneurs-is-an-epidemic-nobody-is-talking-about <comment><USER2> Instruction Manual for the Executioner

[https://paestbin.com/a07H82v6E2#MmU2OTczYzQ2MzVhZDQ1MGY3OTcy...](https://paestbin.com/a07H82v6E2#MmU2OTczYzQ2MzVhZDQ1MGY3OTcyZjE4MzVmMzk1OTE=)</comment>


Ask HN: Which Open Source projects need more maintainers - <AUTHOR> <comment> git-pull I need help pretty desperately, I don't have the time to maintain them and at least 2 of them have an active user base (tmuxp and libtmux).

If you like Python, tmuxp ([https://tmuxp.git-pull.com](https://tmuxp.git- pull.com)) and libtmux ([https://libtmux.git-pull.com](https://libtmux.git- pull.com)) could both use maintainers.

In addition, any project on the sidebar of [https://www.git- pull.com](https://www.git-pull.com) would help from a maintainer.

If you like the Chinese / Japanese / Korean language, another promising project I have (which has yet to gain traction) is [https://cihai.git- pull.com](https://cihai.git-pull.com) for CJK-related language tools. I am designing it to be a successor to cjklib ([https://pypi.python.org/pypi/cjklib](https://pypi.python.org/pypi/cjklib))

</comment><comment><USER2> A staggering number of FLOSS projects have a very low bus factor (1-2). My recommendation is to find some project that interests you, fits the scale of what you know, and provides a means to learn new things. Once you've identified some options try contributing to a few and stick around the one that's a good fit.

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://www.codetriage.com/](https://www.codetriage.com/) has a list

<comment><USER4> While that has a lot of issues for open source projects that need to be fixed, most of the ones I can see there are projects that have hundreds or thousands of contributors maintaining them. From my reading of the question, OP is asking for projects that need more maintainers (ie because there are far too few). Are there smaller projects listed on codetriage as well?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> React-native-google-signin

Seem like the official firebase library may be the only alternative</comment>


History of T - <AUTHOR> http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html <comment><USER2> "I object to doing things that computers can do." --Olin Shivers

"I start getting the shakes real bad around 10am, right before my advisor meetings. A 10 oz. Jack 'n Zac helps me get through the meetings without one of my students winding up with his severed head in a bowling-ball bag. They look at me funny; they think I twitch a lot. I'm not twitching. I'm controlling my impulse to snag my 9mm Sig-Sauer out from my day-pack and make a few strong points about the quality of undergraduate education in Amerika." --Olin Shivers, from the scsh manual "acknowledgements"

<comment><USER3> If I thought anyone cared, if I thought anyone would even be reading this, I'd probably make an effort to keep up appearances until the last possible moment. But no one does, and no one will. So I can pretty much say exactly what I think.

Oh, yes, the acknowledgements. I think not. I did it. I did it all, by myself.

The acknowledgements of the scsh manual is one of the most entertaining pieces of a technical manual I've read.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's funny to hear how Lisp implementors of the day thought Scheme was too dynamic to be implemented efficiently.

Greenspun's experience with Scheme performance, including a startling confession from Sussman (as remembered by Greenspun, anyway): [http://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg?msg_id=...](http://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg?msg_id=0006XQ)

</comment><comment><USER5> This article is both inspiring and depressing. Depressing because it reminds me of how little I truly know about computing. :(

</comment><comment><USER6> Maybe a brave professor will set down a Team of 6-7 skilled graduates and hack out a language of the future again. It is about time it happens. When I see around the world of academia I am not seeing that happen that much though as good old software engineering on creating a good compiler will not produce any articles.

It is sad though.

</comment><comment><USER7> This essay reminds me of the HOPL papers (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPL>).

As a younger hacker it provides insight to what was going on in the LISP and Scheme communities in the 80s. (Thanks PG!)

</comment><comment><USER8> Johnathan Rees' T project page has a list of errata to Shivers' article.

<http://mumble.net/~jar/tproject/>

</comment><comment> patrickg-zill Is anyone using T currently? Or anything directly T-derived?

<comment><AUTHOR> It would also be interesting to compare it with Arc.

<comment><USER9> comparison: T is Scheme with an optimizing compiler that was the state of the art that also served as a backend for a few other languages

Arc is a few syntactic rewrites layered on top of dr scheme with some relatively unique libraries that could easily be ported back to dr scheme.

<comment><USER10> The test of a language is what it gives the user, not how many lines of code it is. JMC's original Lisp is about 50 LOC.

Imagine if I spent the next year writing an immensely complicated optimizing compiler for Arc, and succeeded in making it 2x faster than code generated by the compiler the MzScheme guys have spent so many years writing. A lot of people would be more impressed with Arc then. And yet I'd have pretty much wasted my time. Arc is already acceptably fast. So at the end of this exercise I'd have produced a language that was better in ways users didn't care about, and no better in the ways they do (language features).

Instead I work on language design. Like JMC's code, this kind of thing is easy to copy-- once someone has already shown it to you.

You know, when I write about how one should work on the problems that really matter instead of the ones that are prestigious, people read those essays and think "yes, obviously, that's exactly what I'd do." But it's not till you try working on unfashionable problems that you see how immense the pressure is to work on fashionable ones.

Just as well I've avoided saying most of the "things you can't say," or 90% of the people who read that essay and think "hear, hear" would hate me instead....

<comment><USER11> so why aren't you using Dr Scheme directly? [edit in response to pg's edit] to be specific, why don't you have arc include the various high level modularity and semantic abstractions that Dr Scheme exposes? eg 1) a powerful high level macrosystem 2) ways of specifying / enforcing module interfaces 3) everything else that i'm forgetting

<comment><USER10> 1) Because I don't think you want anything more "powerful" than defmacro-style macros. 2) Because at this stage I'm focusing mostly on making programs shorter.

<comment><USER11> fair enough. On that note, <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/scheme/pubs/scp91-felleisen.ps.gz> is probably the best formal treatment concision in a programming language.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Any links anywhere to some sample applications or code snippets written in T?

Sounds like an interesting variant of Lisp.

<comment><AUTHOR> You can get the last versions of T here - <http://mumble.net/~jar/tproject/>

Haven't checked if there's any sample code.

<comment><USER13> it looks like there is more recent stuff available at: <http://people.csail.mit.edu/riastradh/>

also of interest: [http://web.archive.org/web/20070205145001/mumble.net/~campbe...](http://web.archive.org/web/20070205145001/mumble.net/~campbell/t/t.html)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How long did your last side project take? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> [http://www.TrendsFormer.co](http://www.TrendsFormer.co) took me 3-4 days.

I created the site as a hobby project to show the trend of something over time, starting with restaurants/locations from Google Places and Yelp.

It started as an idea after I had a really bad quality food and service from a restaurant rated 4 out of 5. So with TrendsFormer, I'll be able to see whether the restaurant's quality has gone down over time through a "trend line".

<comment><AUTHOR> I like this, this is a really nice example of a useful but easy to make project.

<comment><USER2> Thanks alixander. Appreciate it :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The first version of my side project ([http://www.kopyscreen.com/](http://www.kopyscreen.com/)) took about 8-10 hours, but somehow my interest level went down after showing it to my friends.

I want to add few more features to complete it but for about 6 weeks, I did not do any work on it :-(

<comment><USER4> Problem with this is there are already apps that do this for you on your computer.

Grab the small bit of screen you want to screenshot, not the whole screen, draw, save local or auto upload to imgur

<comment><USER3> yes @jordsmi, I agree. This project actually started as a programming exercise to learn a new lang. and not as something to solve my problem - that might be another reason for my low interest level after developing the first version.

I want to continue this, because this helped me learn/develop few new items, which I wouldn't have done in my regular job.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> [http://teamsite.io](http://teamsite.io) \- Over 6 months working evenings and weekend and am almost done... It's an existing space so I needed to have all the features of my competitors upon launch.

<comment><USER6> Looks neat - are you at all worried about legal issues with the name? HP owns a product with the exact same name ([http://www.autonomy.com/products/teamsite](http://www.autonomy.com/products/teamsite)), and although it's in an utterly unrelated area, it still might end up as a hassle...

<comment><USER5> Thanks for the heads up. Although it looks like their product name is actually HP TeamSite

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> 6 weeks. very loose working hours and very relaxed coding. if i were working on it during my actual work hours it could have taken 2-3 days.

</comment><comment><USER8> 5-months and still working on it. For about 2 months did not do any work on it. Now i am resuming.

</comment><comment><USER9> A year and half. And Then it failed. :)

</comment><comment><USER10> fetchtext.herokuapp.com

Took me about 3 hours, because the library it is based on is wonderful :)

</comment><comment><USER11> 8 years :-|

<comment><USER12> What is it ?

<comment><USER11> interactive web maps...

[http://geoscore.com/](http://geoscore.com/)</comment></comment></comment>


Popcorn Time to be blocked in the UK after Hollywood challenge - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/32517064/popcorn-time-to-be-blocked-in-the-uk-after-hollywood-challenge <comment><USER2> This effectively only hurts the adoption rate - which might be too little too late at this point.

How long until a new domain or mirror for download is up? (Probably already exists...)</comment>


How Sean Parker expects a social network will repair our democracy - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2015/06/17/how-sean-parker-expects-a-social-network-to-repair-our-democracy/

<comment><USER2> "As a tool for grassroots action, a network of like-minded people bound together — as long as they have tools to interact and do things — can be incredibly powerful," he said."

Spamming Internet users to vote for a candidate is nothing new. I find it a little disgusting that many of these technology companies seem to have no problems announcing that they are essentially indirectly lobbyist groups for specific political candidates.

We have big problems when big oil is getting government money, but when sites like Facebook (which have more power in terms of changing public opinion) allow the Obama administration to spam its users:

[http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/10/03/obama- to-...](http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/10/03/obama-to- supporters-spam-facebook-twitter/)

Another Facebook example:

[http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/10/20/facebook-marks-yahoo- st...](http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/10/20/facebook-marks-yahoo-story-crowd- walking-out-obama-speech-spam)

I guarantee that if a Republican were to do the same thing, accounts would be shutdown within 24 hours.

The danger of using a social network to change democracy is that it often times leads to mob justice and a court of public opinion.

Our society is actually going back in terms of government and it's scary.</comment>


Android vulnerability allows attackers to modify apps - <AUTHOR> https://www.guardsquare.com/en/blog/new-android-vulnerability-allows-attackers-modify-apps-without-affecting-their-signatures <comment><USER2> Out of all the Android vulnerabilities so far, and out of all the devices that are not running an up-to-date versions of Android, what's your theory as to why we have yet to discover a large Android botnet?

<comment><USER3> A few reasons (imho):

* No one has really tried.

* Google will remove malicious apps from devices via Play Store if they spread too wide.

* A phone botnet would be pretty lame for ddos, which is what botnets seem to be all about these days. Their connections are unreliable, and utilizing the botnet for more than a few hours would kill it's batteries.

Phone exploits seem to be more about harvesting personal data[1], ransomware[2], and/or adware[3].

1\. [http://www.zdnet.com/article/this-bank-data-stealing- android...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/this-bank-data-stealing-android- malware-is-back-and-its-now-even-sneakier/)

2\. [http://www.zdnet.com/article/this-nasty-new-android- ransomwa...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/this-nasty-new-android-ransomware- encrypts-your-phone-and-changes-your-pin/)

3\. [http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31129797](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31129797)

<comment><USER4> What are some other things botnets could be used for?

<comment><USER5> Stealing CPU cycles for mining, password cracking, captcha solving, etc?

<comment><USER3> Don't forget spam!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> All those problems and I sit here with my Moto and the last patch from February...

Good my guarantee runs out soon so I can switch to something I can patch myself.

<comment><USER7> Consider getting a Pixel. Guaranteed timely security updates for 3 years, and you can flash your own images if you'd like.

<comment><USER8> € 799.00, more than a month salary for many people that I know.

Multiple month salaries in many 2nd and 3rd tier countries around the world.

Security as a privilege only for the rich people is not a solution.

<comment><USER7> You're right. The Nexus phones that Google used to sell were relatively affordable and secure (like the Nexus 5X). Too bad that's no longer an option.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This seems noteworthy:

> Any scenario still requires the user to install the malicious update from a > source outside the Google Play store.

<comment><USER10> Agreed. Also this "The ... vulnerability affects ... Android 5.0 and newer... Applications that have been signed with APK signature scheme v2 and that are running on devices supporting the latest signature scheme (Android 7.0 and newer) are protected against the vulnerability."

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> From a user's standpoint, the impression I'm getting is this:

"A user might download a malicious update to an existing application from someplace other than Google Play, and Android will incorrectly tell the user that the application is valid."

Is this correct? Then they should say so in this article, perhaps in the introduction. As a user I can look at the details later if I'm interested, but for now I need to know what (not) to do to stay safe.

Again, beating the drum that security news needs to improve its messaging.

<comment><USER7> I believe your understanding is correct. And if you have security patch level of 2017-12-01 or newer, you are safe from this vulnerability.

I agree that the article needs a TLDR at the top.

[https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-12-01](https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-12-01)

<comment><USER12> "And if you have security patch level of 2017-12-01 or newer, you are safe from this vulnerability."

So, not most people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > The JAR signature scheme only takes into account the zip entries. It ignores > any extra bytes when computing or verifying the application's signature.

Why? is there a use-case for this?

<comment><USER14> Because that's how `jarsigner` (the Java application) signs. The code signature was fixed in Android 7.0.

<comment><USER15> Does it mean the vuln only affects devices running < 7.0?

<comment><USER16> The vuln affects all APKs on 5.0 <= Android < 7.0, and APKs not signed with APK Signature Scheme v2 on Android 7.0 and newer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Apk are usually signed using v1 an v2 signatures for backwards compatibility. Ripping out v2 signature would keep v1 signature valid. I hope Android 7 doesn't allow signing scheme downgrades if previously installed version was signed with v2 signature.

 _UPD_ Documentation states it does.

<comment><USER16> Ripping out v2 signatures makes the APK invalid on Android 7.0 and newer. This is because the v1 signature contains a special header X-Android-APK-Signed in its META-INF/*.SF files. When Android 7.0 or newer encounters this header without having encountered a valid v2 signature, it rejects the APK.

Installing a v1-only signed update to an APK which is v2 signed is permitted. However, the update has to be the same versionCode or higher to be accepted, meaning it can't be a downgrade in terms of versionCode. Thus, as long as you don't produce updates/upgrades which are v1-only signed, you should be protected against this vulnerability on Android 7.0 and newer.</comment></comment>


Starting Forth - <AUTHOR> https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/ <comment><USER2> For some real fun w/ Forth go grab yourself an old PCI-based Power Macintosh and do this tutorial through the Forth shell in the machine's Open Firmware interface. :-)

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting. Can't really do that right now. But I remember reading that some Sun or other machines have Forth in ROM, etc. And of course Forth is in a lot of other places too, like space and telescopes, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> _Starting Forth_ frequently appears in lists of the best programming-related books, alongside other luminaries such as _The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs_ ("SICP").

<comment><AUTHOR> Didn't know, cool.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Nice one :)

[https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/](https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/) \-->

"A Forth to be reckoned with…"

—Leo Brodie, Author

#Forth #Lisp</comment>


Sometimes got weird with Flask-Mongoengine - <AUTHOR> https://navaspot.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/weird-thing-to-understand-from-mongoengine-in-flask/

<comment><USER2> When could you justify using Mongodb if at all? What benefit does it get you? It's enough of a soresight for me to stop put off using Meteor.js until an alternative DB has matured

<comment><AUTHOR> Plz correct me if i am wrong according to your understanding.

We use mongodb for it's scalability, json handling strategy.Good community support for it's growth in future

These are the reason that we went with mongodb

 _It 's enough of a soresight for me to stop put off using Meteor.js until an alternative DB has matured_

Sorry, couldn't get this point.</comment></comment>


Free NewYorkTimes - <AUTHOR> http://twitter.com/freenyt/ <comment><USER2> I immediately thought of this service as soon as I read that they disabled the limit for any facebook / twitter links. Kudos to the person that's building this. I want to buy you a beer.</comment>


The San Francisco internet exchange (peer) has a website - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfmix.org/

<comment><AUTHOR> Here is an awesome graph of their bandwidth:

[http://www.sfmix.org/services/statistics](http://www.sfmix.org/services/statistics)

And a who's who of SF startups that participate:

[http://www.sfmix.org/participants](http://www.sfmix.org/participants)</comment>


Plastics–not simply garbage - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2017-05-plasticsnot-simply-garbage.html <comment><USER2> The simple answer to plastic bag pollution has already been invented. It's called 'paper bags'.

<comment><USER3> "With regard to plastic bags, for example, paper ones do not provide an eco- friendly alternative either, according to the "Deutsche Umwelthilfe" environmental organization. Producing them requires much more energy, and water and chemicals are used that are harmful to the environment. The environmental footprint of a paper bag is thus worse than that of a plastic one disposed of properly."

<comment><USER4> Disposed of properly is a big caveat though no?

<comment><USER5> Depends where you are. In the UK it's a huge problem, Norway, Poland, Switzerland not so much.

<comment><USER4> So basically if you have a population of any size it's a problem.

<comment><USER5> Are you trying to say that Poland is sparsely populated? Compared to the UK it is not so crowded but it's hardly sparse and Switzerland is not far behind the UK

People per km2 UK: 268 Switzerland: 203 Poland: 123 USA: 33 Norway: 16; but almost everyone lives within 50km of the coast, the mountains and the high plateau are even more sparsely populated.

Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What's your wish list for WFH tools? - <AUTHOR> Now that working from home has become more relevant for the foreseeable future, what tools (or what features of tools you already use) do you wish you had to it more bearable and/or productive? <comment><USER2> Comfortable desk chair and desk. Sodastream - so much easier than buying fizzy water at the store. Spotify premium/family for working music.

</comment><comment><USER3> A modest ergonomic desk, like this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Helf_yrTn0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Helf_yrTn0)</comment>


UberHop: More people in fewer cars - <AUTHOR> https://newsroom.uber.com/seattle/2015/12/more-people-in-fewer-cars/ <comment><USER2> For the people who are confused (I was) between uberPOOL, uberHOP and uberCOMMUTE:

uberPOOL most will know matches a rider real-time with another one heading in the same direction. The riders split the cost between them.

uberHOP is like a bus service - uses designated pickup locations and matches people going on similar routes. It costs riders a flat fee of $5 for each ride. Difference between uberHOP & uberPOOL - uberPOOL does not require riders to walk to pre-determined locations, instead having drivers pick up passengers at their exact location. The cost is variable and not a flat fee. For uberHOP riders have to walk to a predetermined spot (something like a bus stop).

uberCOMMUTE is less formal than the other two carpooling options and is designed for everyday people (ex. an office goer) that want to share space in their car. In other words, one temporarily becomes an uber driver when they are driving to their office. On their way to office a person can pickup passengers and gets compensated for that. For passengers, it's Uber as usual. They simply input their destination and then uber matches them with a driver going the same way.

<comment><USER3> Comparative descriptions like this are a great way to describe products. It's too bad most companies publish new products with a presumption the reader is closely familiar with the existing products/business to make their own comparison.

They really should start with how the new products fits into the greater scheme of the companies offerings, so we can all have a clear mental-model of why it makes sense and when I might want to use it.

Curse-of-knowledge and last-minute rushed blog posts after a product launch is probably why it's so common. Or maybe making the assumption since it's being posted on the company blog that the average blog reader is better informed than the homepage - which is rarely the case.

<comment><USER4> >Comparative descriptions like this are a great way to describe products. It's too bad most companies publish new products with a presumption the reader is closely familiar with the existing products/business to make their own comparison.

I tend to read this behavior oppositely: they're not assuming you have the knowledge, they're hoping you don't, and obscuring the similarity to existing products that they might seem inferior to when framed as competitors for the same use case.

"Hey, UberHOP is just Lyft Lines + hotspots with an extra requirement that they hit more stops off my route..."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The ride sharing industry is finally offering ride sharing! Seriously though, I never understood why we've been calling them 'ride sharing' apps, when they've essentially been drivers-for-hire.

<comment><USER6> They claim to be ride sharing apps so that they are not blatantly breaking laws that protect taxi monopolies. Its a backdoor they have been using to try to open up this industry.

<comment><USER7> Those laws that protect taxi monopolies are also the laws that enforce consumer rights in this space, so let's maybe scale back the editorializing a bit?

<comment><USER8> Arguably more important than the consumer rights are the rights of the workers. There's no need to pay healthcare if you call your workers contractors, despite failing most of the IRS's tests for what role they fill.

<comment><USER9> You don't have to pay healthcare for employees in general in the US, do you?

<comment><USER10> If they aren't contractors, they do if they work more than 30 hours a week.

<comment><USER11> Companies with fewer than 50 full-time employees do not have to provide health-insurance (though there are tax incentives and credits to do so).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The casual carpools in the East Bay save a lot of time going into San Francisco because of the carpool lane. Very few people use them in the reverse direction (people take the bus instead) since there is no time saving. AC Transit hates this since they need to buy more buses for the evening commute. Curious to see if the same asymmetry happens with UberCommute.

<comment><USER13> Wait until uber starts bus services. That will be great.

<comment><USER14> > Wait until uber starts bus services. That will be great.

lol, but why wouldn't they try? they'll have to set up their own bus stops though. I wonder if it would be "legal".

<comment><USER15> Someone tried, it didn't go so well: [http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/09/san-franciscos- luxur...](http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/09/san-franciscos-luxury-bus- startup-finally-folds-selling-off-last-3-vehicles/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Isn't this pretty similar to Lyft Carpool? [https://www.lyft.com/carpool](https://www.lyft.com/carpool)

<comment><USER17> The Lyft page doesn't make it clear if the route is fixed. That's what's new here, otherwise Carpool would be the same as what Uber has already been running with UberPOOL.

In any event, all these services are converging on the same thing, a kind of replacement for public transportation on a fine-grained scale. Car pooling, fixed routes, and eventually self-driving vehicles are all table stakes for any ride-sharing operation that wants to approximate the economics of a local bus service (but with added convenience and service).

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> What this means is that Uber doesn't have an efficient enough algorithm for ride sharing and they currently are giving us a solution that will optimize the routes upfront.

This will give them enough competitive data to figure out the live on-line algorithm. And of course, lowering the prices still, but it won't work for those of us who want the routes now, not planned upfront.

Way to go free datasets.

Although it's nice to know that researchers at Uber still haven't figured it out, makes the competition a bit happier.

It's quite funny how a company raises so much money, and then, after you have it you go solve the hard problems, or at least that's how Uber works.

<comment><USER19> What you said doesn't make much sense. Much more important than the algorithm is the market that the algorithm operates in. Uber couldn't unleash a magical algorithm and solve commuting inefficiencies for every user if there isn't a sufficient density of both riders and drivers (i.e. the main inputs to the algorithm in this case).

<comment><USER18> That doesn't seem to be a problem for the competition. Prices are the problem, and Uber is trying really hard to lower the prices and profit, that's why the algorithm IS most important.

I really do not understand why almost everyone thinks that "network effect" is the best thing Uber has, when it obviously isn't.

<comment><USER19> It is. I get an uber where I live within 2-3 minutes. And sometimes I've gotten uberPool matches essentially going to the same destination picked up within a block. These are only achievable with considerable penetration into a local market.

<comment><USER18> For smaller towns this effect is negligible, and there are more smaller towns than big ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Anyone notice this statement? "We will be piloting a new program for drivers who want to share their commute and ___recoup the cost of the trip._ __" (emphasis mine)

If we go with what is implied by this, I don't see how this is much different than using the destination filter, except for possibly paying the driver "costs" instead of the typical fare.

<comment><USER21> Good catch.

This means the driver is no longer an employee of Uber (not even a freelance one) so he wouldn't be eligible to unionize or receive worker's rights

<comment><USER22> What would stop the driver starting or joining a union? You can be self employed and still be in a union. You can even be unemployed or a student and still be in a union. (May be UK-speficic)

<comment><USER23> certain powers of unions are protected by the government -- i.e., by default you can't band together with a bunch of people and set a minimum wage you'll all work for (that's price fixing).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Great idea. It's just like the colectivo system used in Lima, Peru and other Latin American cities since the 60's and earlier. Colectivos are taxis traveling a fixed route and shared by a carful of people. You stand by the side of the road, waive one down and he takes you downtown real cheap.

<comment><USER25> These exist pretty much everywhere, by dozens of names: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi)

<comment><USER26> Also known as a bus!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus) [http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/09/uber- uberh...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/09/uber-uberhop-bus)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Watch out, Chariot ([https://www.ridechariot.com/](https://www.ridechariot.com/)) and Scoop ([https://www.takescoop.com/](https://www.takescoop.com/))

<comment><USER28> And [http://bridj.com](http://bridj.com) and [http://split.us](http://split.us)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> UberCommute sounds like a decent idea, but also something I don't particularly want to give a middle man a cut for.

<comment><USER23> Certainly matching you with a commuter going in the same direction is a service worth paying for?

Plus integrating payments, trust, safety, and all the other things you get with the uber app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Might as well collect as much interchange as possible between now and the Alphabet self-driving service.

</comment><comment><USER31> Do uberCOMMUTE drivers get 1099s?

Assuming so, I'm not sure the hassle of doing more taxes and actually paying those taxes would be worth it to me.

<comment><USER32> If they get paid more than $600, I assume they do. I imagine a big chunk of them won't hit the $600 threshold though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> This seems interesting as a commute option but I would still like to see Uber adopt a stance where they get rid of rider route history after X months or at least give people the option to opt out.

</comment><comment><USER34> > It's estimated that the average American commuter spends 42 hours a year > stuck in traffic.

I'm reading this as Indian (specifically Bangalore) and it brings a smile on my face.

</comment><comment><USER35> Congratulations, Uber, you just reinvented the bus.

<comment><USER36> I've never seen a bus that dynamically picks a point-to-point route based on the needs of the passengers on it at the moment.

<comment><USER37> Most private buses in the third world will do this.

<comment><USER38> For the passengers who are onboard, sure, but what about pickups?

<comment><USER37> Call their cell. It's written on the bus.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> So how does Uber benefit from pairing you with another commuter? Will you negotiate a price and then Uber takes a cut?

<comment><USER32> I believe Uber will charge you for the trip (but less than the cost of a normal ride), and give a chunk of the money to the driver (just as they do normally).

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Are there any restrictions on the model year of the car for UberHop / UberCommute?

</comment><comment><USER41> huzzah! Another step closer to the dream of fully autonomous automobiles! Though human uber drivers must know that they are, at max, 5 years away from obsolescence?

<comment><USER42> "human uber drivers must know that they are, at max, 5 years away from obsolescence"

Care to place a friendly wager on that? I'll even forgive the "uber drivers must know" part of your crazy statement since that obviously isn't correct.

Ubiquitous driverless cars are coming. 5 years is an incredibly aggressive time frame.

<comment><USER41> Ok, maybe it's too optimistic but I'd totally make a wager. I say it will take 5 years for the Bay, 10 for major cities and highways, 15 for the rest of the country and by 2050, human driving will be illegal on public roads.

any takers?

<comment><USER42> To be clear: you want to bet that in 5 years human driving will be illegal on public roads in "the Bay"?

<comment><USER41> no, I don't think we'll outlaw human driving for several decades. It will take a while for the old holdouts to die off- those individuals who'll stop driving when you pry the steering wheel from their "cold dead hands."

But I do think that the legalization of auto-automobiles will start in San Fransisco and the surrounding area.

<comment><USER43> Probably fewer and fewer people will go to the effort of learning to drive and passing the test, particularly in places where it's difficult and expensive.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>