Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent? - <AUTHOR> I'm at the end of my rope and this is my first post. Please be gentle. (deep breath)
I started in IT 15 years ago as a help desk jockey for a small ISP back in the dial-up days. Since then I have done everything from low level hardware support to leading a large government project installing a new telephony/messaging solution for a school system.
Here's the thing: I dropped out of high school and got a G.E.D. my Junior year. I have always had a weird knack for learning on the fly (are the rest of you like this too?). I always bluffed my way in to jobs I was completely unqualified for and pulled it off quite well.
Then the recession hit my area particularly hard so I tried the local technical college but decided it wasn't worth the debt or time learning stuff I already knew.. Lately, I have been wasting my time trying to break into IT Security (always my primary interest), with no luck because my security experience isn't professional. I was able to self-study for both my Network+ and Security+ (gotta start somewhere) and did surprisingly well. I'm proud that I was able to score 895/900 on the Security+ exam after just reading for two weeks but these certifications didn't seem to make a difference.
I'll get to the point. I can't seem to get my foot in the door anywhere to do anything from level one help desk work to anything else. Add a new family to the picture and you can see why I need to make a move now. What's someone like me to do? I am talented (some past coworkers and managers actually called it freakish), but you cant put talent on your resume. I'd relocate anywhere on earth for a stable job. I pull a deer-in-the-headlights every time I try to find a new skill to learn. Too many options. I don't know what's in demand. What can people still turn in to a long-term career? What area or "discipline" in IT shows promise for a career? <comment><USER2> I'm gonna venture a guess here, and there's a decent chance you're going to respond poorly to it and think I'm just being an asshole, or do some rationalization and throw my opinion away. But I promise: I'm not just trying to put you down. At least consider it.

> I can't seem to get my foot in the door anywhere to do anything from level > one help desk work to anything else.

Maybe it's how you come across personally; whether that's in interviews, or cover letters, or introductions.

A good hiring process is probably in the 60/40 ratio of talent/personality. If you're a complete 0 in the personality department, you're probably not going to get hired unless you're a Carmack-level talent. Some places will skew that one way or the other, but I doubt it'll ever go more then 75/25 either way unless you find somewhere completely dysfunctional.

Saying things like:

> I always bluffed my way in to jobs I was completely unqualified for and > pulled it off quite well

are usually red flags for me, personality-wise. It reeks a little of someone who constantly needs to publicly validate themselves as "the smartest person in the room," and ends up not accepting feedback very well (if at all). To me, self-reflection, the acceptance that maybe you're not as talented as you think, and striving to constantly be better are critical parts of being a professional.

It's sorta like that person in school who constantly made sure to tell everyone that they didn't study and still aced the exam - most people don't enjoy working with or talking to that person for any extended period of time.

Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and shit on you. We've all got our things. Just maybe some food for thought.

<comment><USER3> Or perhaps he was just establishing context so we could better answer his question? There's no reason to assume a personality defect because he was communicating honestly about the situation he finds himself in.

<comment><USER2> Sure, and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he's not a jackass and perhaps just phrased things in a way that set off an alarm in my head. If I really thought he was a total git, I wouldn't have responded at all.

However on the off-chance that some of that is leaking into interviews or cover letters, it's probably worth remediation.

<comment><USER3> But that's the thing though, there is no way any mention of being unusually smart or capable would not have been received by you negatively. We've gotten to the point where we can't honestly acknowledge our strengths without someone feeling slighted by it and then judging us for it. We see it all the time in fact, anyone who is publicly recognized for a great thing they did must show a proper amount of deference and humility, otherwise they are seen as being pompous or full of themselves. This shouldn't be the case.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> There are three ways to play the game:

1\. Play by the "rules": stockpile the degrees, certifications, awards, etc. that we all know are largely useless but are absolute requirements for signaling your way through a standard corporate job interview. If you are after a normal, boring, corporate American desk job (nothing wrong with this depending on your life situation) you must play the game by the rules. If you don't, you will delude yourself and lose opportunities to lesser talented candidates who are better at playing the game.

2\. Leverage your connections: use your professional connections to bypass / skip many of the requirements set by the "rules" to get a job. This requires less of playing by the rules but means you must have a solid professional network of people that have good jobs at companies that are looking to hire and are impressed enough by your work to give you a recommendation. This is harder than it seems, even for those with good connections, but I personally have found the most success finding good jobs these way.

3\. Set your own rules: start your own business. This is the toughest but allows you to completely skip the rules. It also requires the greatest amount of talent and offers the greatest amount of reward. Speaking from personal experience, however, unless you have stockpiled savings and have excellent work ethic, this is a massive risk that has the potential to destroy your savings, emotional state and family relationships.

If I were you, I'd focus on a combination of #1 and #2. Get the college degree even if you think it's useless -- I'm sure you're being rejected immediately because of a lack of college degree. If you really don't want to do that, start working your professional network for referrals or start working on a great side project that you can present at an interview that showcases your talents and makes up for your lack of degrees. #3 is the dream, of course, but I've found that there is enormous value in the stability of a regular paycheck and insurance, especially when you have dependents, despite the soul-crushing nature of corporate jobs.

Good luck.

<comment><USER5> There's no sense in getting a college degree just for the sake of having it. They're expensive and take up a lot of time, and they're not needed to get into tech jobs. Yes, _some_ companies will care about this, but many, many companies will not. They care about what you know and what you've shown you can do.

Leveraging connections, on the other hand, is a great idea. Most jobs are not actually advertised anywhere, and if you can use your connections well you can find yourself applying for jobs with very little competition.

<comment><USER6> It seems like you chose to selectively ignore what he said the use of a degree was. And he didn't say "just for the sake of having it," he said it's a requirement to get your foot in the door at corporate jobs. It is.

<comment><USER5> > he said it's a requirement to get your foot in the door at corporate jobs. > It is.

And I disagreed with him, which I think is okay. It's demonstrably not a requirement for _all_ corporate jobs, so you can't make sweeping generalizations like that. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you don't need a degree to work at companies like Citrix or Google, for example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I can't help you directly (I'm not in the IT Security field), but I think I have some applicable tips.

I did very badly in college, and majored in American History. About three years ago, I quit my job and learned how to code. I was focused on machine learning and data analysis. I faced the same problem you did -- no way to prove I had any skills.

The way to stand out to employers in your field is to do things that are publicly visible. It's hard to judge someone's talent from a resume, but it's easy from a github repo.

Some ideas for you:

* Contribute to open source projects in the space you're interested in.

* Start a blog. You'd be surprised by how much sharing some of your own experience can help others, and it can raise your profile a lot.

* Lots of companies offer bug bounties -- try to find some vulnerabilities and collect some. Blog about your experiences. I don't know how hard this is, though.

* Make cool projects and share them on github. Blog about them. Post them on HN.

* Go to meetups in your area on topics that interest you. Meet people. Make cool projects with them.

* Go to hackathons if you can. They're a great way to meet people and find interesting projects.

* See if you can take on a small part-time role helping out at a startup in your field.

As for what's in demand, take your pick. I've talked to companies having trouble hiring web developers, mobile developers, and data scientists. Any of them is a good choice (again, don't know anything about IT security demand).

<comment><USER8> Wow. That is almost exactly my life story right now (three years of cinema studies, had to drop out for financial reasons, now trying to teach myself code and sorta succeeding at it but feel grossly unqualified).

Thank you for posting.

<comment><USER9> Hey ! I kind of did this transition recently from Literature grad to developer.

I don't know if you had the same experience but I think for me the key to succeeding in this transition was to try and learn not only to 'code', but also about the engineering, quality, deployment processes surrounding code that most juniors (that I have seen) typically know little-to-nothing about.

That way, even if you have a lot to learn on-the-job, you probably won't be a burden on the rest of the team and they won't have to spend too much time holding your hand (except at code review time, but I guess that's the case with every newcomer to a project).

I also worked for myself for some time and had some experience (minor really) to help me get my foot through the door. Then when you get a job, you have an opportunity to show what you can do and after that you're just like everybody else.

<comment><USER10> I am curious how you went from freelancing to working at a firm. I also got into development from a liberal arts background ( I went to a "great books" school ). I started out several years ago, first with a brief internship, and then freelancing with a friend who a more experienced developer, and now I am freelancing solo. I have several sites and apps under my belt but I feel like an impostor and totally unqualified when I look at the requirements for various job listings (Junior/Intermediate JS/Python/PHP)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I can't speak for the rest of the industry, but since I'm the CTO of an information security consultancy, I can at least provide an informed opinion.

Many, _many_ security companies don't care what your formal education is. The reason for this is simple: there aren't many (or, perhaps, any) undergraduate computer security programs that are cutting-edge and relevant enough to teach the skills needed to be a good hacker. Unless we're talking about graduate- degrees, I barely glance at a prospective hire's formal education -- there's just not enough correlation between that piece of paper and performance on the job.

What I _do_ look for is self-motivation, passion, and drive. I know it's cliché, but you can't be great at infosec if you're just pulling the 9-5 -- it has to be something you really care about. You have to stay on top of everything.

So how does one measure passion?

Clearly, if you can talk about side-projects you've done in the security realm, that's a great start. If not, being involved with the community (such as the free and local Security BSides conferences, OWASP meetups, etc.), shows that security is something that you really care about. Those events are free (or maybe $10), and show a lot of drive.

I know your actual question was in terms of IT disciplines, not just security, but I'm confident that what I'm saying here applies to almost every selective career type. You're trying to be competitive in a tough environment, so you have to make yourself stand out. Really, _really_ wanting something usually shows.

That said, feel free to shoot me an email if you're still interested in the security route. I'm always looking for new engineers!

<comment><USER12> Hearing this from someone like yourself brings me great joy...

In 2011 after my time in the military was through I made a decision to get into infosec. I didn't know how to code, had never been to college, and only had IT knowledge from being a typical computer geek in high school. That same year I found out there was security firm in my relatively small hometown, so I emailed them.

Since then I've been reading books, coding, and emailing that firm every 5 months or so basically asking for work. To hear that self-motivation, passion, and drive are big hiring factors to you makes all this studying I've done over the past few years worth more to me than before I read your post.

I finally got a "maybe later this year" from the technical lead, I'm crossing my fingers.

Thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This may seem way out in left field but: Do a background check on yourself. If a company does such a check and it comes back saying you're a serial murderer they will not tell you that's why you were turned down.

Background checks are often horribly wrong or contain bullshit red flags like, "Claimed position: Developer; Actual position: Architect". Get enough of those and you'll be dropped for consideration.

When I left an employer a few years ago I requested my employee record and what was inside blew my mind. The background check was _so_ wrong it was crazy. It said I worked at places I never worked. It said I lied about my work history (aforementioned title naming problem). It said my provided address information did not exist!

Fortunately none of that seemed to matter to the company that hired me but I suspect it's only because the supposed red flags were ultimately meaningless (did I work as a customer service rep at some company 8 years ago? No. Was it relevant? No).

<comment><AUTHOR> This is rather unsettling as I have never asked for an employee record from anyone before.

I have thought to run a background check before. However, I didn't know or have the time to find out back then where to request one. I know there are a lot of sites out there who apparently generate a report for you for a price. I just didn't know if any were particularly reputable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Matasano crypto challenge? Prove that you're talented.

Credentials are not skills. If you've been in IT for 15 years you have skills.

Go to meetups. Be yourself, but try to be pleasant and helpful. It's who you know + how you can help them.

</comment><comment><USER15> 15 years in, formal eduction shouldn't be a big deal. Assuming you made a deep positive impact on successful projects, you should have a deep network or connections and referrals to tap? If not, you need to answer that question.

Why are you "bluffing" through jobs when you should have a large tool-belt of experience? Just-in-time/on-the-job learning should be a positive, but it sounds like you need to improve your soft skills/be able to more effectively reposition/sell yourself.

Beyond a resume, which you've mentioned you're terrible at (learn to make a good one, there are plenty of resources, or get someone who is good at it to improve yours) you should probably also put together a CV/project portfolio. Is your LinkedIn up to date?

Also, while it sounds like your experience is mostly in IT support/systems integration, if you're looking for employability, just learn to code. iOS/Android if you're looking for immediate employability, some systems language, full-stack webdev for more general flexibility.

Participate in some open source projects, like others have mentioned, make sure you have a robust Github account. The only way to judge talent is by output, and having public repos and project participation speaks for itself and is a 100x better indicator than any degree or credential.

I wish you the best of luck, but you maybe getting feedback from former employees and coworkers to assess your strengths and weaknesses would be more effective than asking random people on the Internet?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks much. The 'bluffing' was how I got the tool-belt. Again, my apologies for such a sloppy first post. LinkedIn, while up to date, has never done anything for me but spam me about things like endorsements and birthdays.

Well, and get my contact info into the hands of every spambot posing as a headhunter on the planet. It's there though. Former coworkers are hard to track down but all have written recommendations for me in the past. Some are on the LinkedIn page. I have no project portfolio. I don't really know how to put one together.

I like asking random people on the internet because my former managers and co- workers can't figure out why I have been unemployed for so long either.

<comment><USER15> Hmm, but none of the former managers or co-workers have managed to recommend positions or leads to you?

In anycase, I suggest you pick a specialty, whether it's infosec or something else, and make sure you are participating in the proper communities online - Twitter, mailing lists, meetups, etc and actually get _really good_ at something.

From your response to mattmurdog, it sounds like you are defining talent differently from how I think most of the people here would - where talent == actual, not potentially acquired skills/experience.

There are a near infinite number of bugs, RFEs, unsolved problems, and projects to be done (just scan the articles that show up on HN every day). Publicly demonstrate the ability to fix some of those (like actually upstream some patches, release some projects), and honestly, you shouldn't have any problem getting a contract or any other kind of gig. Real (demonstrably productive) talent in tech is always in short supply.

<comment><AUTHOR> A hiring manager from a job I had for a year in Tampa back in 2005 got me my last two interviews. So, I have been attempting to tap my rather small network, It isn't that large though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I know that tptacek used to hire people who did well on [http://cryptopals.com/](http://cryptopals.com/). He is no longer with that company, but you can look around for an opportunity like that as a way to get your foot in the door.

<comment><USER17> I left Matasano to turn what we were doing with Cryptopals and Microcorruption into a company. Fun announcement coming soon.

I can't speak for Matasano/NCC Group anymore, but: I strongly suspect that if you can get through all 7 sets of the crypto challenges, they will want to talk to you. So far as I know, the resume-blind hiring process I built there is still running.

If you get all the way through the crypto challenges, want to work in software security, and have trouble finding a place to work, ping me. I will happily rep you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Maybe I'm dumb but nobody who's hired me ever cared of my (lack of) degrees. All they cared about was proof that I could get stuff done, which is one of the purpose of my Github. AFAIK, talent is all I have, and I've never had a hard time finding jobs as a developer. And I learned and started writing code 4 years ago, so it's not like I'm a child prodigy or something.

I'm just a dude who picked up programming a few years ago. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not special and I'm doing fine. You likely have more experience than I, so there's nothing that should prevent you from getting in a similar situation. One thing I do have for myself is confidence, so maybe that's all there is to it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the input. While Pen Testing has always been my goal, I have started looking at things like Database Development or Full-stack web dev training. Problem is, my financial situation doesn't always allow for me to get access to structured learning.

<comment><USER19> > Problem is, my financial situation doesn't always allow for me to get access > to structured learning.

There's so much information on the web, or via books/video courses/MOOCs that there's no need to do the structured learning thing. Particularly with Python. Plus, Python is used in security to create scripts/tools.

EDIT: Example of some books, vis-a-vis Python and security (learn the basics first).

* Violent Python: A Cookbook for Hackers, Forensic Analysts, Penetration Testers and Security Engineers

* Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python

* Python Penetration Testing Essentials

* Gray Hat Python: Python Programming for Hackers and Reverse Engineers

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I am aware of and use some of these. I have an ex co-worker who is still a close friend and a developer who is always giving me advice and helping me find these kinds of resources.

The financial thing was more about certification training, as I was (mistakenly) under the impression that they carried more weight and would open more doors for me. Especially in the Security realm.

I had also looked at things like bloc.io but who really has that much money for that kind of training on their own? Thank you for the response!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Would you consider a (perhaps accelerated) degree program?

I understand this might not be possible in your situation, but if you can find an evening, on-site, accelerated program at a local non-flagship state school then you might be missing an opportunity. I've known some people in similar situations for whom this approach worked out well.

I can provide some advice if this is at all plausible for you.

(edit: the comment by ferrari8608 is an excellent example of why attending an inexpensive university can be a good idea, even without finishing the degree program; you'd be surprised at the number of positions filled via "former professor" relationships).

<comment><AUTHOR> This is something I will look in to. Thanks for the comment!

<comment><USER21> Some advice (again, assuming you go this route; not saying you must/should):

1\. Try to find a not-too-expensive, non-flagship state school ($5-9k / semester for a full course load is a good ballpark. You can bring that down a lot by doing gen eds at a community college and then registering for 1/2 or 3/4 loads for the semesters you're enrolled at the uni. Most state schools let you pay by credit hour and are good about accepting Community college credit, but make sure you get a commitment from the uni that they'll accept any CC course you take.)

2\. Get in touch with an admissions person and request a one-on-one.

a. Make sure they know you're an "adult learner" and, if you can't arrange your other obligations to take day-time courses, figure out if there are evening sections of every course you'll need to graduate.

b. Inquire about scholarships, grants, and subsidized loans. Talk with your family and figure out what you feel like you're able to afford. Be frank with the admissions person about financial realities.

c. Request a one-on-one with a faculty member from the CS department. Many teaching-oriented schools will entertain this, but don't be surprised if you get turned down. If you get a meeting, start off with general questions about the faculty's expertise in security (actually this doesn't matter so much because you ultimately want a job rather than a research position, but technical stuff is a good way to break the ice). Then ask that faculty member about what the department does to help place students in internships/jobs. As an added bonus, in general, faculty are more likely to give you a good sense of the quality of the school than admissions people (who are, after all, salesmen).

3\. Don't be afraid or too proud to avail yourself of free tutoring etc., and try to be a participant in the department's community (e.g., attend official department events whenever possible. In general, be seen and excel.

4\. Once in CS courses at the uni, be sure to stand out and that your profs know about your interest in security and prior IT experience (great way to get leads passed your way).

Other advice regarding finances:

1\. If you have to take out loans, make sure they're subsidized. Make sure that increase in lifetime earning balances out the full cost including interest. As a good rule of thumb, the total is approximately the cost of a new, low-end car. I.e., limit yourself to the amount of debt you would put into a consumable. Rationale: education has far better pay-offs than a car, but more risk.

2\. If you can xfer courses from a community college, do all those before enrolling at the uni. In the mean time you might find a good job (at which point you can choose to attend the uni or not).

3\. Make sure your family is 100% on board and that you're confident you will finish the degree or get a job out of it. Be aware that, esp. if you're working during school, the time commitments and stress are going to take a toll on personal relationships.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> 1\. Find a cushy job in government or a very large corporation, where you can bluff your way through indefinitely.

2\. Buckle down and master some real skills that are in demand. It's a cop out to say there are "too many options". All you have to do is pick one you're interested in and put the time in. You have to specialize though. Security isn't specific enough, penetration testing is, or iOS/Android development, frontend web development, whatever. After just a few months of study, you could probably find someone who will hire you at a low salary in any of these jobs. Then master the specialty on the job.

<comment><AUTHOR> I understand. I was nervous about using the right terminology when rambling out the OP. Pen Testing was the area I had been focusing on. I have taken online courses and have real-world experience doing that but not in a "professional" capacity. That being said, how much weight do certifications carry when applying for employment in that area?

<comment><USER22> It's easy to see gauge your skill at penetration testing. Just try to collect some security bounties. Certifications don't matter much at good companies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This may have been covered already, but... The purpose of a resume is not to get you hired. The point of a resume is to catch someone's attention for long enough to keep you in the race, or get to the next step.

A successful resume is one that will be NOT discarded by HR drones or automated resume scanning software. A successful resume will get you a phone screening or an in-person interview.

If your resume is, as you said, awful, but you are getting to the interview stage then you are getting there DESPITE the quality of your resume.

If you are not getting past the interview step, the problem is not with the resume (it's out of the picture). So "something" may be going wrong in your interviews. I don't have any ideas about how to go looking for what might be going wrong.

Separately, I don't see any mention of the web site [http://asktheheadhunter.com/](http://asktheheadhunter.com/)

This guy has strong opinions that are carefully expressed. Many of his opinions contradict "common wisdom," which I often found eye-opening. He has a lot of interesting things to say. Poke around the site... read some articles, subscribe to the newsletter. It could be helpful.

</comment><comment><USER24> Which other talents do you have?

I would also ask myself the following questions:

Do you really wan't a job (employed by a company), or you just need one?

Have you thought that maybe your talents are not appreciated in the corporate world?

One must consider that the recruitment system is broken, or do we really believe that with a written one page document and a brief phone call, we can screen people and dimension their whole personality?

I have asked these questions myself because I relate to your situation. My advice: Just be productive every day, and this means to create things that you think might be useful to somebody.

And yes, not everyone has the ability to speak the language of the corporate world. Just try to find the people you can work with best. Maybe you're best suited to be an entrepreneur or a workshop guy building stuff and experimenting.

Also, a new family is not a small thing, it changes many things in our lives, it unbalances us in many ways, certainly in the economic one. But don't despair because this too is a great thing that is already pushing you to your limits and thus providing the opportunity to improve yourself.

Consider this your life quest.

</comment><comment><USER25> When people start making assumptions about you, then giving advice, take it with a grain of salt.

Taking the known issues as you have stated them: No degree, no direct experience in the specialty that you want to pursue, this is how I would proceed:

1) Focus on jobs at small to medium sized companies. They will be less likely to rely on some hiring script, and likely to give more weight to an interview.

2) Make a spread sheet of all jobs on monster.com & similar services that involve security and start applying for them.

3) Make a spread sheet of all the companies that you can find where you would prefer to work, regardless if they are hiring, and apply there as well.

4) Once these two resources are compiled start your weekly applications...

Week X:

5) Blast 20 companies with your application, prioritizing the companies by which ones you like the best. Make sure to customize the cover letter for each job.

6) Follow up on the previous weeks 20 applications with a short friendly email.

7) Spend some time during the week building something that show cases your knowledge in security.

I hope I've said something that you believe will be beneficial and actionable. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER26> >I don't know what's in demand. What can people still turn in to a long-term career? What area or "discipline" in IT shows promise for a career?

Here's one rule of thumb I've been using to gauge demand. If someone's willing to hire you to use a tool even though you haven't really used it before, then the demand is there.

Another warning is that what's hot now may not be hot 5 years from now. iOS is hot right now. I'm concerned that, with Steve Jobs gone, Apple is going to implode and lose their market share. So there may be no iOS jobs 5 years from now.

Just keep sending out resumes. You'll find something eventually. It's just a numbers game.

Do you have any savings? If not, get whatever you can right now to get back. Be prepared to take something lousy and be looking to jump to something better.

<comment><USER27> Apple is too large to implode and fail quickly. Even if they do fail it will be a slow death or just a leveling off. Look at Microsoft. The last ~10 years they been getting beaten in many large markets they are entering, but they are still a massive player.

<comment><USER26> There's no way Blackberry could lose their market share. Even if they do fail it would be slowly or a leveling off. There's no way they could go from the leader to zero in 5 years.

<comment><USER28> Apple has $180Billion in cash. The total it spends on employees is $18Billion per year. So, in essence Apple could pay its employees just to sit around and not sell a single product for 10 years before running out of cash.

Ponder that. Apple is nothing like Blackberry. Your example is totally ridiculous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I have seen this situation before. It seems to be a particular fail mode for the typical tech company hiring filter. A lot of people, some of my co-workers included, screen for a very particular sort of cookie. When they don't get exactly the cookie they want, they reject.

To be fair to them, the number of flaming idiots that manage to get past HR phone screens these days is seemingly monotonically increasing, but along those lines, here's my question: if you're not even getting past HR phone screens (and these people frequently are keyword-driven dim bulbs IMO having suffered through some astoundingly inept phone screens that were a waste of an hour), what are you telling them? Or if it's not even getting that far, have you had someone look at your resume?

<comment><AUTHOR> I actually do well in this part of what has regrettably become the norm in the industry for "interviews".

I don't really know what I am doing wrong other than needing to refresh my resume. Still, even in its abominable state, it gets attention and I do get solicited. I just always seem to lack something that, while insignificant on paper as it may be, makes the difference.

For example, I was very recently put in touch with a group in Tampa. I was contacted by them because an old manager in town had told someone who told someone about me. Long story short, great interviews and 3 weeks later, I was passed over in favor of an internal promotion because of the time it would have taken me to move my family from TN back to Tampa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Hi tfg4k, I am coming from Romania, so I know a little bit about geography problems and let's just say that on the old continent, coming from the Eastern is still a handicap. I also love IT security and I dedicated 1 year of my life to try to get in and do something. The biggest stupid thing that I could do. It's way to little and this industry is so closed, that you have absolutely no chance to make it on your own. It's impossible. In order to break something, you need to understand it and then exploit it's weakness. Because everything is so complex now, you're pretty much like a fish out of water.

If all you are saying is true and you are really good, your problem is not getting a job. Your problem is finding out what you want to be in the IT. Developer/consultant/tech support or what? This is what you should be asking yourself in the first place. After you know want you want to be, then go and find a technology THAT YOU LIKE, THAT MAKES YOU VALUABLE.

> What area or "discipline" in IT shows promise for a career? This is one of > the biggest top 3 mistake in my opinion. What tomorrow is cool and trendy, > tomorrow will because obsolete (e.g. Flash), so technology doesn't actually > matter to be honest. One day it's a keyboard, tomorrow it's touchscreen and > in 10 years there'll be mental commands. This makes no difference, because > we built the whole 1/0 logic in order to help us in our day to day work in > any way possible. So if you are serious about this, FIRST find out what you > like, than prepare for it, practice it and the step you foot in the door. > Regardless if you're going in for an internship or to be the manager, your > goal is to get on that door and keep going in, day after day. If you're that > good, they will promote you by default.

Cheer up and find something that you're good at, the reward will come by itself. The most important thing is to like what you are doing, the rest is history :)

PS: By the way, I ended up being a SAP Developer, after which I switched at being a SAP Consultant in Germany. I still keep a closed eye at the security field, but just as a hobby, nothing more.

</comment><comment><USER31> People who have no credentials, but lots of talent, sometimes start their own business. This is something I used to comment on a lot on homeschooling lists. The two examples I typically gave back then were: Bill Gates is a college dropout and Madonna is a college dropout.

An example that might mean a bit more to you: In this forum, IIRC, jacquesm is a high school dropout. He is currently #3 on the leaderboard. If you haven't read his blog, you might find it of interest:

[http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/](http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jacquesm](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jacquesm)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot. Bookmarked. I really appreciate the response to the OP from you and everyone else. I didn't expect it to get noticed at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Wipe away all the negativity from your thoughts and, more importantly, your resume.

Focus only on you positive achievements. Sell yourself.

Get on daily job mailing lists from ziprecruiter, indeed, dice, and postjobfree, and apply for at least 5 jobs a day.

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER33> IT security is ridiculously easy to break into, and I'm not kidding.

If you are able to demonstrate all that talent (github, outside projects, anything else) and you are able to hold a conversation with people, there are literally thousands of openings for you.

The certifications only really matter to Washington DC (or people making money off of DC).

Apply more places, make some things on the side that demonstrate you know what you're talking about, and look for positions at large, stable companies.

</comment><comment><USER34> Would recommend getting a job doing what you've already done before trying to break into the IT security field.

1\. Getting a job. Know anyone you used to work with that is now at a fairly large company?

2\. Getting into IT security. Ever considered going into one of the bug bounty programs, e.g. for Facebook, etc...? That'd be a good thing to put on your resume, as well as giving you some money.

</comment><comment><USER35> You sound a lot like programmers I constantly run in to who claim to have 10+ years of experience and rate themselves a 10 out of 10 on everything known to man. But yet can't land a full time job and just coast from freelance to freelance work and take on projects that my 8 year old nephew and/or a chimp could have done/automated. Like some of the replies here, these guys come off super arrogant and are just not personalable. These are all major red flags. Not to mention they're just clever at being deceptive, not only to potential employers but also themselves. Because when pressed in technical interviews or tests they fold. They fold hard.

If you really want to break in, I would be honest with what you can do. There's no shame in being self taught. Use that trait as a strength to show your capability and interest to learn new things. That you're autonomous and motivated. Talk about how you were able to learn new things or how you were the driving force behind something. Don't be afraid to take a smaller role and listen to others. Your coworkers are assets not ladders for you to climb over. And most importantly, work with smarter people. Soon enough you'll learn that you're actually not that talented... or maybe you really are. Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, Did I say something negative about coworkers? And again, the talent I am referring to is the ability to learn quickly because of a great mentor I had when I was much younger. Not a superpower.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> > I am talented (some past coworkers and managers actually called it > freakish), but you cant put talent on your resume.

And that's where you are wrong. Make sure that those coworkers and managers will back you up during your next interview and urge the prospective employer to actually ask these people about your qualification.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, you're right. I suppose you can put talent on your resume. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I want to thank all of you for the great comments and advice.

I had absolutely no idea that this would get so much traction. Some of you have given me invaluable insight and I hope to see more of it. A few comments I have even lifted just to put into a note to use as reference later. I think this is awesome.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: Sorry if I missed a typo or sentence fragment. Had to edit a lot to get under character limit.

</comment><comment><USER37> Think about the Army. MOSes in 25 series and 35Q and 35T would be interesting to you. All computer stuff. 35Q would have you doing _pentesting_. Go talk to a recruiter if you're not older than 35.

Source: I am in the Army. It's not nearly as bad as you'd think.

</comment><comment><USER38> You won't pass the fliters to get hired. There is a way to do it. First you need to show that u have worked for big companies; second, try to work as a contractor, which can help you gain real experience.

No company wants to mentor anyone.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have worked for large companies before. Defense Contractors and in Operations for very large retail organizations.

Am working as a contractor now. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it!

<comment><USER38> pm me, i can tell u how Indians play the gay. You can play the same game these offshoring companies play to get a contract gig right away.

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool. I have no idea what that means but, yeah

<comment><USER39> That might be one approach to getting a job, but it doesn't really sound so good... depending on ones orientation of course.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Sorry for all the edits, I'm still getting the hang of the formatting in commenting and posting. I didn't expect a response like this. I appreciate everyone who took the time to comment!

</comment><comment><USER40> I know it's not what you're looking for, but learning JS and a _hot_ framework like React or Meteor will help you land a job in the IT sector in sooner or later IMHO.

Good luck with everything.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, no, thank you very much. I was looking at Angular earlier this morning. I played around with Node when it was new, dropped it because anything within reach at the time in my job market were for things like pulling cable, fixing people's computers for a small MSP, and that was about it. At least I have something to work on in the meantime. I started playing with JS and Python when I considered being a programmer. I stopped because everyone said Python (which is awesome) and I just had a rougher time learning it than JS.

<comment><USER5> It sounds like you lack tenacity. Unless I'm completely misreading you, you're saying you started learning things to help you get into a web development job, but then gave them up because... you couldn't get a web development job yet? Why did you drop the thing that would put other jobs in reach?

> I stopped because everyone said Python (which is awesome) and I just had a > rougher time learning it than JS.

Whatever you're learning, someone will come along and tell you that something else is better. Ignore them. The first programming language you learn is teaching you to program, which is far more important than which language it is. You're learning transferable skills that you'll take with you when you learn something else.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Talents gets you very little, handwork can get you a lot farther.

</comment><comment><USER42> Instead of doing what is in demand, try doing what you like to do. Liking what you do makes it easier to deal with the boring part.

<comment><AUTHOR> I enjoy it all. It isn't a situation like some I have read about here before where people who want to become programmers can't decide on a language. Since I have always pursued my "passion" for just about anything to do with Security, it has always been in my spare time. So, what I was looking for in that part of the OP was just a little guidance. Like, if I thought Fortran was dope, it still wouldn't do me much good to master it right now when I need work.. (trying a joke) Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I'm going to be a little rough, but it's not meant to slam you.

Here's what I would see as a hiring manager if this was distilled down to a resume:

1\. H.S. Diploma

2\. Worked help desk and wiring jobs for 15 years with little to no upward career progression

3\. No particular portfolio of work you can point to

4\. Personally, given this background, you've ended up with a new family. I don't know if you're struggling to support them or not, but I'm guessing with help desk jobs it's probably a struggle.

All this together can read to a hiring managers as "not responsible or forward thinking enough to trust with a chance. May not actually know how to do the kind of long-term hard work I need for more senior/higher paying positions."

Even with a change in any of those four bullet points, you would read as a better candidate.

1\. College degree instead of H.S. Diploma

2\. Upward career progression

3\. A portfolio of work

4\. Family issues are not part of the conversation since your personal issues are not the hiring manager's concern, this bullet doesn't even exist.

I'm not saying you need to have all 4, but any improvement in any of them would help. You don't have to have a college degree if your 15 years of experience showed a progression in roles and responsibilities. Or none of that would matter if you had a bunch of awesome projects up someplace for an employer to look at.

Or with no changes in 2,3 or 4, in 15 years it never occurred to you to go hit the local community college and start on what might even look like a degree path? (I say this one with lots of authority since I was once in a similar situation as you, but I finally got the clue after only 4 years of suffering in shitty jobs).

You can't change #1 quickly, even if you started today, that would be years of hard work. Harder than you can realize right now (I'm speaking from personal experience)

#2 might be a framing issue, you might need to rethink how you present your prior work so that if there was any kind of increase in roles and responsibility it's reflected in your work history (and in how you present yourself during interviews.

#3 is also long-term, but even some github projects that do automatic security audits or test for vulnerabilities, things that a few weeks of learning shell scripts or python could probably get you, those would be huge on your resume. Being able to talk intelligently about those things during an interview would be even better.

#4 here's some tough talk. Your personal issues are of no concern to prospective employers. They honestly don't care, and anything they know about is likely to make them concerned about your reliability as a corporate asset.

#5 Finally, certificates are touchy things, they might open some doors, but not as many as just having a college degree would. Most certifications are barely worth the paper they're printed on. If you are really interested in computer security (a very good, fast growing industry with excellent pay and plentiful job openings waiting for you to apply) you need to get into a college degree program and work towards at least a B.S. in Computer Science, Computer Security or Information Systems and then get CISSP certified.

Here's some even tougher talk, to even be considered for a CISSP _certificate_ you have to have had 5 years of 40-hour/wk work experience in 2 of 10 work domains. [https://www.isc2.org/cissp- domains/default.aspx](https://www.isc2.org/cissp-domains/default.aspx) This is the level of candidate that professionals in the field are looking for, full- stop.

You can also become an Associate of (ISC)2 and you'll then have six years to get the necessary experience. [https://www.isc2.org/associates/default.aspx](https://www.isc2.org/associates/default.aspx)

If that's too much, remember an employer is going to think "this guy can't even commit to a real certification program, why should I hire him?". Scout job postings you want, and look at the requirements, that's your guide for what is being looked for. Talent is not one of them.

If this is what you want, you need to start _today_ and do everything necessary to make it happen. You're 15 years behind at this point. But you can make it up.

If this is all too much, you might rethink and go a different direction. A portfolio of tools, a blog on your topic of interest, participation in communities of interest (start networking _NOW_ ) all need to be there when you apply for that next, better, job.

#6: okay really finally. You need to start thinking in terms of career and not job. A job is where you go exchange labor for money. You go from job to job, the pay might be better, it might be worse, but they aren't building blocks that get you anywhere in particular. A career is a tower, each place you work gives you building material for that tower and you slowly build up as high as you're capable of going. Jobs are what you do when you're just out of highschool and looking to score some gas money. Careers are what you do to prepare for eventual retirement and raise a family.

I know I'm being harsh, but I know lots of guys in your same place and can't seem to connect the dots, even after decades of walking in place.

<comment><AUTHOR> I appreciate you being blunt. I'm not going to get anywhere if people tip-toe around any issues they may be able to bring to my attention. I'm not easily offended. I appreciate the last point. Career vs. Job. Yeah, I could go answer phones like I did when I was sixteen but that would just be stupid.

Thanks for that comment!

<comment><USER43> Sure thing.

The real advice I have is that you have to figure out what your story is. What is the culmination of your experiences. If you're still doing help-desk - that's a job people effectively right out of high school do with minimal training. It's the fast-food cashier of tech jobs.

Are you still doing that same job, or have you learned something in that time? If so, if you've aggregated experience and knowledge, you need to figure out how to tell that story and how to distill it down into your resume and interview.

A long time ago I did tech support also, but I know I learned _lots_ of soft skills. It took me a while to figure out how to parlay those into better jobs, but now, many years later and mid-career, those same skills get exercised every single day.

I think your best bet is honestly figuring out how to rerepresent your job time as a career, start building a portfolio you can show off, and start networking.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right-Right. I don't know what it was in the OP that gave people the idea that I am still working help-desk stuff. It was my first technical job.

<comment><USER43> Oh right, sorry if I misread it!

Good luck!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Where are you located?

A friend of mine has some sort of security business, maybe I could get you in contact with him for advice at the least.

<comment><AUTHOR> I meant to reply to this first. I didn't expect so many responses. I am located in Upper East, TN. The Tri-Cities to be more specific.

<comment><USER44> My friend is in the Boston area but he might be able to give useful advice. Email me and I'll pass your contact info on to him. My address is in my profile. BTW: Your email address doesn't show up in your profile unless you put it in your comments.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I really appreciate it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Maybe offer to work for free for 2-4 weeks (10-20 hours per week) for someone you respect, with no expectation of a job, just the expectation of very candid feedback/coaching at the end of the time period.

Getting your skillet where you can meaningfully add value in the first two weeks is not necessarily trivial.

<comment><AUTHOR> That is a wonderful idea that hadn't occurred to me. Although I don't respect anyone in the Security field because I don't know anyone in the field. Will work for free though. Respect or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> people as talented as you say you are, do not end up needing to write this post. Just my opinion

<comment><AUTHOR> Noted and thank you for posting it. It just is a bit more complicated than that. I have been working on a Security focused startup to provide free training to the public as well as Risk Assessment, Pen Testing, etc. to the local small business community because no one else is doing it. Also, about the talent thing: The talent is being able to adapt quickly. It doesn't really help when you're broke and there just isn't much of anything other than becoming a nurse to adapt to in your area.

<comment><USER47> I respect your passion and enthusiasm, but you seem to lack patience. Seeing as you keep bringing up your financial situation as a barrier, why don't you take a job that's not necessarily the one you love, but one that will provide financial stability so that you can spend your other time learning about security related stuff? That will also give you time to apply to other companies and not have to settle for less than what you deserve.

If you already feel like you are an expert or at least good enough to have a job in it, then apply those skills and make something to show your prospective employers.

Again, if your financial situation is not good then all these things just become more difficult. It sucks having a job you don't enjoy, trust me I am in one, but sometimes even if the job itself is not great, the things it will enable you to do make it worthwhile.

Please excuse me if I'm making too many assumptions about your situation, but you just remind me of a similar situation I was in a year ago.

<comment><AUTHOR> No, the financial situation is complex. It isn't about patience. Quick example would be having the opportunity four years ago to work for Rackspace as a Linux Admin but I couldn't afford to move to San Antonio on my own at that time. That's the kind of stuff I am talking about. And no, you are not making too many assumptions. It's my fault for writing such a sloppy OP.

<comment><USER47> If you got an offer from them, they wouldn't be willing to relocate you?

It seems like if that's the issue but you are getting offers then I imagine you should be able to negotiate your way in. That or you could just go into debt momentarily.

Even start ups fly people in for interviews; I can't imagine they'd have too much trouble relocating you. That is, if you're willing of course.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I'm recruiting at the moment. Having just gone through 153 resumes in a week, and 4 phone interviews so far, there are a number of things that will get you to the top of the resume list, the top of the interview list and the job. As a potential employer, in my mind I am really asking myself the following of any candidate.

1\. Is this person the solution to my problems, or another problem to add to my long list of problems? Or, will this person make my workload lighter, or heavier?

2\. Does this person really want to work in _this_ capacity, in _this_ industry, doing _these_ types of tasks? Or, are they desperate for work, and will use me as a stepping stone to another position and in 6 months I am back looking at 153 resumes again?

3\. Does this person think first, and ask questions later, or the other way around? Questions that could have been answered with just a tiny bit of thinking are part of my list of problems. Great questions, honed to the crux of the issue, after thought and research are actually beneficial for me and the person asking, as they are opportunities to not only fix things, but improve the end solution as well.

Following on from this, if I were you I would redo your resume AND your interview technique with the above in mind. Your potential employer is a potential client of yours, and you are a micro business of one person. You need to convince your potential client that YOU are the solution to their problem(s), not another problem sucking down a paycheck.

How do you do this? Personally, I would recommend listing 2 or 3 problems you solved in each of your last positions. Being self-employed/contractor is no different to being employed. You are a small business, hired by your client to solve problems. So list them. If there are disclosure or confidentiality concerns, make your description of the problem and solution very high level.

I know this will probably sound strange, particularly in this particular forum, but nobody really cares what you KNOW, they care about what you can DO. When I read your story about getting 895/900 in the Security+ exam, what it tells me is that you can learn complex subjects in a short time frame. The mark is irrelevant to me, you might just have a very good memory. The REAL question I need answering, is can you put that knowledge to _practical_ use. Will you protect my company's network like it was your first born child? Or will you take advantage of the fact that I don't really understand what it is you do and do nothing all day leaving my business at risk?

It's not easy for technical people to do this, but you need to put yourself in your potential employer's shoes for a minute. Imagine YOU own your own company, and you need a network guy to solve your security problems. You need this person to be capable, competent,responsible and reliable. You need to know that they wont leave you hanging in 6 months because this wasn't what they really wanted to do, and they flit off to something else. How can you be THAT guy?

</comment><comment><USER49> why don't you try webdev? backend or frontend.

<comment><AUTHOR> Planning to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> i'm going to give you some tough love right now, because you've sort of got the wrong concept of what a 'security job' is in your head.

first of all - why the hell are you waiting for someone to give you permission to start doing this job? if you want to do this job, just start fucking doing it.

contribute to security mailing lists and keep an eye out for opportunities. write articles. blog. go to events. write code, open source it. contribute documentation if you can't code. sell yourself as a consultant. appear to know what the hell you're talking about.

DO THE JOB.

if you don't actively participate in a community nobody is going to give a shit about you, much less hand you a career with a pretty bow on it.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have started a small DBA in my area to provide services to small businesses here. I have been working on developing it but I am having a hard time selling it without scaring the crap out of the prospective clients.

I guess what I am saying is that I have been doing the job for years. Just not getting paid for it and was trying to dig out two things in the OP:

1)What the disconnect between working on your own and getting paid for doing the work was.

2)there was a different area I could/should focus on given my disadvantages(financial, disabled, etc.)

Big data and analytics are fascinating to me for example, but only because of the implications and uses of those kinds of skills I can see in a Security related capacity.

I wanted to find out if someone would yell, "You need to learn 'X' because it's useful both in some Security roles and you can work doing that as your day job at the same time." Hope that makes sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Do bug bounties.

I remember when Facebook used to put, what I presume, were PK IDs from a user table in their URL query strings. Lower numbers being earlier users. Anyway, I couldn't find Mark Z, but messaged one of the early staff. I then got a friend request off him. Pretty sure if I'd been a dev at the time, I could have convinced him to get me an interview.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is one avenue I have never tried.... and will begin doing this evening. Thanks guys!

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> My answer isn't great, but it's relevant due to your experience being somewhat similar to my own.

I'm currently working my first job in IT, for two years now, after having only fast food and retail jobs. How did I get here? It wasn't my college education (I'm a dropout, due to transportation and money issues at the time). College did play a big role, though.

One of my instructors saw that talent you mentioned in me, and she knew I was into Linux while the rest of the students knew only Windows. One day one of her old students called her up and asked if she knew anyone who might be a good fit for a job he was trying to fill. I was the guy she went to, and now I'm in IT.

Long story short, it might be beneficial to you to know people who know people in IT security. College may be the place to meet those connections, though there are many other ways and places to accomplish that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Mind if I send you an email?

<comment><USER51> I don't mind.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Make lots of little projects. Put them out there. When people contact you about them, let them know you're a consultant who sells his expertise and time.

I made a tempr for my cousin who was suffering similarly. Take a look: [http://tempr.org/54e91123b3f95.html](http://tempr.org/54e91123b3f95.html)</comment>


Ask HN: Is Grammerly a Keylogger as a Service? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> They've been advertising to me hardcore and it is completely free. It makes me wonder what data they are selling.

I have no issue with them advertising to me based on what I've typed but if they put me in audiences based on it and sell those I get uncomfortable.

<comment><USER3> It's not completely free. Their free version is a limited-feature advertisement for the premium version, which is between $12 and $30 a month depending on billing frequency.

[https://www.grammarly.com/premium](https://www.grammarly.com/premium)

<comment><USER4> I use the free version. I would use the premium version if it was like 5-10 a month. But if I want to pay monthly it's 30 and that's a bit too expensive for my liking.

<comment><USER3> They have that, if you pay annually.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have always wondered why spelling and grammar checkers - which could easily fit on your computer back in the 90s - needed a cloud-based provider.

One could easily build chrome extensions that DIDN'T phone home.

Today deep learning data can be downloaded to each computer. They are doing it with small IOT!!

<comment><USER6> Because their algorithms are their valuable intellectual property and hiding them behind server is the only real way to protect. Of course it has nothing to do with performance.

May be they use some statistics over uploaded texts to improve algorithms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> While we are focusing on Facebook, Google etc. for breaking our privacy to extract data and pass it to third parties, we are willing to use Grammarly, CloudFlare and CrashPlan, pay for it and use it while hoping they will not work with security services. We need much more transparency it seems.

<comment><USER5> There is this idea floating around that the corollary to "if you aren't paying, you're the product" to "if you are paying, you're not."

I wonder why so many people tacitly assume that paying for a service will make them forego mining your data and monetizing it. Very few people read the terms of service in its entirety regardless of whether they pay or not.

What we SHOULD do is standardize privacy policy clauses already.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> For those interested, here's the site: [https://www.grammarly.com/](https://www.grammarly.com/)

</comment><comment><USER9> If you think that, you can write about it and make your case instead of abusing 'Ask HN'. You're not asking anything, just insinuating.

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't know, but I did think the same thing, and that is why I uninstalled it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> They send a weekly emails with chunks of text they corrected so that means my data is being transferred somewhere. I would stay away from this service.

</comment><comment><USER11> What's one more keylogger?

Your OS is already logging your keystrokes, your browser is already logging your keystrokes, who even knows what else is already logging your keystrokes.

Obviously I speak here for the majority of computer users, I imagine many (most?) in the HN readership have taken steps to reduce the amount of keylogging they are exposed to as much as possible already.

<comment><USER12> Whose browser and OS is logging keystrokes? OSX/Windows users with IE/Edge/Safari? Are you insinuating that Google has a patch which integrates keylogging in their Chrome builds of Chromium?

I typically use Chromium on OpenBSD, am I being keylogged. I'm pretty sure we all have a choice, and many of us choose convenience over privacy.

<comment><USER13> You should take a look at the kind of js that gets injected into most mainstream websites nowadays.

<comment><USER14> attaching an event handler to a keyboard action is not the same thing as keylogging...

<comment><USER15> If it's on all keyboard actions, then it's the same thing.

<comment><USER16> Often it is this too, because of sloppy coding, not even malicious intent. I've seen people implement JavaScript easter eggs that play a funny joke, but in doing so the developers had created a keylogger by accident that was logging everything you did on the site. Again, wasn't malicious at all they didn't think about it at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I can totally see this being the case. They do have paid versions, I think only the browser extension is "free"?</comment>


LINE Messenger Releases Public Bot API - <AUTHOR> https://business.line.me/en/products/4/introduction <comment><USER2> Not to mention that i never heard about this App. But there is only a 50 user limit plus it is somehow called a trail. I doubt that makes many devs motivated to develop for it.

<comment><AUTHOR> LINE is the biggest messaging app in many Asian countries, with roughly 400 million registered users and 215 monthly active users</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Difficulties with dev remote jobs? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,<p>As experienced Ruby/Rails developer see many interesting remote jobs listings from US startups... but I don't have experience with this work methodology. Someone has experience of this type to share? Not native English speakers in particular, you have had problems to communicate? <comment><USER2> It will be difficult. It's hard enough working for many US companies remotely as a native English speaker.

Let your work speak for itself. This means a couple things.

1\. write self-documenting code - whatever that means for you or your team

2\. use a style guide. if your team doesn't have one, ask them to create one or do it yourself and get input from the team as you do.

3\. You must be capable of putting out consistent excellent work.

4\. Don't work for a company that doesn't already have remote procedures in place. You don't want to be the guinea pig as a non-english speaker. This means the company should already have good remote collaboration tools in place.

Additional advice:

1\. use video chat as your default form of communication. Get a good webcam.

2\. Make sure there's some flag that lets your team know when your available especially if you're in a different time zone. Whether that's signing in to a work-specific IM account or some other method is up to you to decide

feel free to contact me directly if you have any more questions. I've been working remotely for a company that doesn't take it seriously for nearly 3 years and have learned a lot the hard way.

</comment><comment><USER3> I plan to do the remote worker leap next year to travel around the world.. would be great if there was a who is hiring for only remote jobs.

Currently I work with three remote devs in the philipines and I can say the workflow is great. We have implemented a pretty solid git flow, and we use hip chat for communicating (hubot included).

</comment><comment><USER4> I can suggest [https://weworkremotely.com/](https://weworkremotely.com/), a tool to search for remote positions by 37signals, but I don't have any personal experience in this field.</comment>


Boxee misses January 2011 Netflix launch - <AUTHOR> http://blog.boxee.tv/2011/02/01/netflix-update/

<comment><USER2> Looks like I made the right decision to return the Boxee box I bought for x-mas for my parents. This is really hurting their credibility. The most sought after feature was promised and then repeatedly not delivered. Unfortunate because I really like the boxee software.</comment>


Hyundia aims to providefully automated driving in 2030 - <AUTHOR> http://www.wearobo.com/2015/06/breakinghyundai-promises-fully.html

<comment><USER2> The title misspelled "Hyundai".</comment>


Navy tests rail gun - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/u-navy-test-futuristic-super-fast-gun-sea-202608368--sector.html?vp=1 <comment><USER2> Have they fixed the problem where the gun destroys itself after three shots? (Edit: downvoters: this is a serious question. This is a (historical?) known problem with railguns.[0])

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun#Considerations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun#Considerations)

<comment><USER3> I'm not sure who would downvote that: the amperage is simply staggering! That, and the railgun project has been around for years, with the self-destruct problem being one of the more obvious issues with the idea.

Bludino notes [0] a Popular Mechanics article that quote ls 3MA, with a plan to go to 6MA!

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7553163](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7553163)

<comment><USER4> The amperage is not the issue(main issue at least).

The way a rail gun works the projectile(or its casing) must make physical and solid contact with the barrel. This is because the electric current actually flows through the projectile from one rail to the other rail[1]. This produces huge amounts of wear on the barrel, making it extremely difficult to maintain the barrel. Both in form and in being able have the projectiles make solid contact.

[1] [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Railgun-1...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Railgun-1.svg)

<comment><USER5> Why couldn't there be small metallic wheels in the barrel making contact with the projectile? Wouldn't that prevent wear?

<comment><USER4> I imagine you could do something like this.

Off the top of my head this would pose a few issues.

1) While the magnetic force must go from one rail to the other, the amount of electric force is effected by how much of the body is doing the conducting(if my memory servers me). So while you could use wheels, you would still want the current to flow through the entire(or large portion) of the projectile housing(for lack of a better term). This leads to the second issue.

2) Melting. With these huge amperage's there is also huge heat levels. If you were to conduct this much current through a small point(as would be the case with a wheel) the heat generated would be even worse. Most likely causing the wheels/barrings to melt.

Neither of which cant be accounted for, just issues that would have to be considered.

<comment><USER6> Many wheels, possibly in the form of many small ball bearings on a rail should work. Many small cylinders instead of spherical bearings would be better.

Even better would be a highly conductive grease non-flammable grease.

<comment><USER7> The bearing idea isn't a solution for a few reasons:

1) Rotating bearings still have internal friction, which will still generate tremendous heat at these velocities.

2) A lot of the heat being generated here is caused by the flow of electrical current, which isn't negated by bearings. In fact, it would probably be made worse, because any spherical contact patch is going to be tiny compared to a flat surface. The suggestion of using many small bearings would seem to alleviate this problem, but the smaller you make the bearing, the more fragile it becomes.

At its heart, this is a materials science problem. You need a material that can conduct the electricity, withstand the heat, and not break down under high friction loads while doing both of these. Simply dropping in a bearing doesn't solve any of these problems

The highly conductive, non-flammable grease is just another materials challenge. At the kinds of temperatures present in a rail gun, "non-flammable" becomes a very high bar for a lubricating fluid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The first operational beam weapons and rail guns really bring out in stark contrast that all a modern weapon system is, is the ability to reasonably safely store potential energy 'here' and accurately release it 'there', with hopefully catastrophic consequences.

What railguns and beam weapons do, is weaponize nuclear reactors and gas turbines, reducing the need for propellants and explosives. While it's unlikely that this will allow the aircraft carrier to regain the place it once held, it seems likely in the future that massive power generation capability will become more and more important.

<comment><USER4> > While it's unlikely that this will allow the aircraft carrier to regain the > place it once held...

Care to elaborate on this? I was under the impression aircraft carriers were still our best general purpose military tool? (wartime/peacetime/force projection/ect)

<comment><USER9> They're great against a low-tech adversary, but against serious ballistic or (some) cruise missiles, they're just slowly-moving seaborne apartment blocks. Good writeup here:

[http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the- carrier...](http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers- will-die/)

<comment><USER10> This is really informative. You should submit it.

<comment><USER9> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=547596](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=547596) \- should probably have searched before posting original link :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> $25,000 for a single projectile is "affordable"?

Why do I feel like I'm living in a madhouse?

<comment><USER12> A single-use anti-tank weapon costs $50,000, and worth every penny if you're the infantryman and the tank is heading toward you. Its dirt cheap at the cost, considering the price of a tank.

Same for the railgun. They are shooting at million-dollar targets.

<comment><USER13> Increasing the costs for other tax payers does not make it cheaper though. Furthermore, the weapons cost the same wether they are fired at an approaching tank, into the air, at a bunch of baby seals, or not ever. It's not like weapon peddlers buy back the unused stuff at full price, do they.

<comment><USER12> In a better world we'd not need weapons. But give these guys a break: this weapon is essentially all about the cost-cutting. It replaces million-dollar missiles, which are definitely single-use. It doesn't need resupplying with powder - it makes its own propellant (electricity). Each round takes around 1 cu ft, so a single ship can carry hundreds/thousands instead of a dozen.

This is you tax dollars at work, cutting costs for everybody.

<comment><USER13> That at best makes this the exception to the rule, and is a drop in the ocean. Yeah, it saves money. Kinda like cleaning a needle makes it more safer to inject heroin you found on someone who died of bad heroin. Technically, this is true, if you accept a few premises I personally don't buy into.

Do you really think this changed:

 _The business of buying weapons that takes place in the Pentagon is a corrupt business - ethically and morally corrupt from top to bottom. The process is dominated by advocacy, with few, if any, checks and balances. Most people in power like this system of doing business and do not want it changed._ \-- Colonel James G. Burton

And it also doesn't change the fact that how much value something destroys doesn't increase the value of it. If anything, it's how much value it protects that does. There's generally tax payers and demagogues on both sides, fucking their own populations much harder than their "enemies", and the more value gets destroyed in that process, the sadder the outcome for humanity. Exactly because it's all mostly a racket, such a mythos of heroism and adoring the technical excellency of it has been created, and because it's so shameful, people defend it so pettily, and uselessly. Like I would care about downvotes when speaking my conscience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> As a lover of technology and science fiction I love this railgun. But as a taxpayer and pragmatist, I really think it is a waste. I can't see this being as accurate as a guided missile over long ranges, which is the most important thing for modern combat. So that leaves it as a good alternative for short range attacks, which I doubt it will ever be used in combat for.

<comment><USER15> Drones don't need pilots which means they don't need pilot training which changes the economics of air-combat. For around ~100k you can build a long rang self guided drone which would be almost useless vs an aircraft carrier or a modern fighter. However, for ~10 billion you can have 100,000 of those suckers and the US does not have anywhere near that many air to air missiles and it's not going to take anywhere near 100k of them to takeout an aircraft carrier.

<comment><USER8> However, $10 billion is a big number for everyone, including the US and China, although for them its at least possible. It's 150% of Iran's military budget and about 80% of North Korea's entire GDP.

<comment><USER15> It's 150% of Iran's military budget in one year. Split that over 10 years and it's 15% of Iran's budget. Granted there would be maintenance costs and it's not 100% automated plus you they would need storage even if there taking off from dirt runways etc. But, they don't exactly need 100,000 to be a solid threat either.

<comment><USER16> > But, they don't exactly need 100,000 to be a solid threat either.

At least as of October 1967, 1/25000 of that figure would have sufficed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> This is the type of ship that it will be mounted on: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead- class_Joint_High_Spee...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead- class_Joint_High_Speed_Vessel)

I always assumed it would be put on a Littoral class ship. I'm guessing that the ship is going to be dedicated to this weapon and that's why it wasn't put on a carrier or LCS for testing.

How is it going to be powered? Will it have it's own dedicated nuclear reactor and a huge array of capacitors? I wonder what the time between shots will be.

Here are some nice pictures of the latest version, still amazing that it has become compact enough for a ship in such a short time. [http://www.gizmag.com/first-industry-railgun-prototype- launc...](http://www.gizmag.com/first-industry-railgun-prototype- launcher/21377/pictures#2)

<comment><USER18> They pretty clearly say that its being put on the Spearhead for testing because it has the space for it. And given all the problems they're having on the LCSs, I think the last they want to do is is to do testing of experimental weapons on it.

As for power, the LM2500 in the Aegis Destroyers put out 20MW. They have 4 of them. This gun puts out 32MJ of muzzle velocity. Assuming 10% efficiency, and you're at 320MJ per shot. If you ran a dedicated LM2500 per gun, that'll get you a shot every 16 seconds.

<comment><USER17> The Wikipedia page says the engines are this kind and only produce 9MW: [http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/engine- program/diesel...](http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/engine- program/diesel-engines-and-gas-turbines-for-marine-main-propulsion- dieselelectric-drives-and-onboard-power-generation/diesel-engines-for- yachts/detail/product/472/cHash/4ff3806e0fd02da8b2018163b14381d1/)

But I see what you are saying, that seems like plenty, I had always assume that it would take a huge amount of energy (I know pretty much nothing about electricity).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> These are interesting stories. I find mass publicity of war tech interesting. This one has been a long time coming as noted by all the "this is old news" responses.

Who are the intended audiences? What is the intended effect? Warnings to the competition? Psychological effect on economy-draining military efforts in places like N.Korea and Iran? PR/Sales efforts to the military funding and recruitment apparatus?

</comment><comment><USER20> This kind of progress saddens me. Who is going to be the target of this weapon? Also think in all the human and material resources involved in creating this, i can't help thinking how many "good actions" could be done instead. How many medical supplies, food and clean water could be distributed with the $$$ used in the development and usage of this.

I'm probably just a naive pacifist, but I think the world would be a better place if Americans stop producing weapons. Especially of this kind.

I appreciate the amazing science behind the nuclear bomb, drones or railguns, but i would rather keep it on the scifi parcel and wish the were never created for real.

Again, I'm probably naive.

<comment><USER21> The military would agree with you. After all, they're the ones with the greatest chance of getting killed in a conflict.

The problem is the policy makers tend to regard them as the first option (when they should be the last) for a number of reasons. The first one in my mind is because the number of senators and congressmen with children in the military can probably be counted on less than two hands. None of them would publicly state that they want to see Americans killed in a war, but their actions say different. Dunbar's Number[0] at work.

The other reason is that the US military is amazingly successful. They've fought a two-front war, one against the fifth largest army on the planet, and defeated all opponents. And did it without putting the entire country on a war footing (conscription, entire industries being converted, and so on). So (from the politician's view), why not hand the problem over to someone who can get stuff done?

Lastly - As much as I'd like to believe the world is full of potential friends, if only we could meet and talk -- the reality is that there are a lot of people out there who hate us. Many of them because we killed a relative or friend. But some because we don't live up to their expectations. As weird as that may be. Consequently, a strong means of national defense is required.

[0] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Interestingly this story makes me wonder whether economic consequences even enter the picture when choosing to engage. I never would have imagined an admiral asking themselves "Is this worth the cost of a $1.5 million missile?" I reckon that it would be a binary decision based on threat alone. Are there any guidelines in the military where the commanding officer is instructed to perform any sort of cost benefits analysis when making the decision to engage a hostile?

Would a dramatically lowered cost greatly increase the likelihood that the navy will be more willing to act as an aggressor?

</comment><comment><USER22> I can't imagine the amount of electricity (even just for a split second) it would take to pull this off.

<comment><AUTHOR> In the ideal case, the math is pretty simple. The kinetic energy in 1/2MV^2 . (integral from 0 to mach 7) so if you know the weight of the missile...

<comment><USER23> weapon that can fire a low-cost, 23-pound (10-kg) projectile at seven times the speed of sound

340m/s ~ speed of sound so thats 10kg at 2380 m/s (wow!)

5 _2380_ 2380 Joules = 28322000 J

or 28MJ or 28MW if it needs a whole second of power or well the output of ~1/10 second of a mid sized nuclear power station

Yes it needs a lot of power

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Can somebody please add a warning that there's an autoplaying video? It's a bit awkward if your phone suddenly starts talking about guns when your standing in line in a bank :/

Edit: A video tag would be nice in general for mobile users.

<comment><USER25> Aren't you supposed to turn off your phone while inside a bank?

<comment><USER24> I haven't been in that many banks but I've never been at one that tells you to turn off cellphones , neither in Europe nor here in Africa...

<comment><USER25> Weird. Mexico, Chicago and Argentina[1] have banned them as a security measure[2]. I thought it was the same all over the world.

[1] [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/bank_bans_cel...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/bank_bans_cell.html)

[2] [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/11/18/argentina.c...](http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/11/18/argentina.cell.phone.ban/index.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> i wonder about his statement that not a thing in the sky would survive at hit. from the video of it punching through the reinforced concrete walls, it seem that there is very little damage to the wall besides the obvious hole. sort of like the shaolin monk throwing a needle through glass. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW_97D0hLBc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW_97D0hLBc) but i'd guess this is more a question of what kind of target they are shooting at. they present incoming missiles (small and mobile) and something over 100 miles away (big and stationary?).

<comment><USER12> Targeting is certainly important and remains to be seen if they're up to it. But Mach 7 means you only have to get a fix on it, and a rough estimate of its speed; the missile will arrive in milliseconds and the target won't have moved very far.

But is there anything in the air that has enough extra parts that it can survive a 10-inch hole through and through, and destruction of everything in between? Certainly not any missile.

<comment><USER27> Mach 7 is 5328mph

100 miles at 5328mph is going to take ~1 minute

<comment><USER12> And 1 mile is going to take 1.5 seconds. So yeah not milliseconds, but fast.

<comment><USER27> An ICBM RV in reentry phase (15K miles an hour) or a Sprint ABM (0 to Mach 10 in 5 seconds) now those are _fast_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Would this type of weapon be able to shoot satellites right out of the sky?

<comment><USER29> It doesn't take much power to shoot a satellite out of the sky. The hard part is actually hitting it.

Let's say you're aiming at a GPS satellite in geostationary orbit. According to Wikipedia ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit)) you're trying to hit a target that is 20,000 miles up in the sky moving at about mach 10, and the target is the size of a car. We don't have the tech for that kind of dumb-fire accuracy, even if you fire the gun from above the atmosphere. At 20,000 miles, you would need to reliably place a shot within slightly less than 1/1000th of an arcsecond.

In order to hit a target under those conditions, you would need a projectile that can do course corrections on the way to the target. Like a missile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I have been hearing about rail guns for years - so its a little surprising to me that the projectiles still cost 25k and they don't expect them to be on ships till the end of the decade.

<comment><USER31> I'm quite sure that the 25k price could come down, if they were being manufactured in bulk. I believe it's mostly an appropriately shaped lump of metal..?

<comment><USER32> The appropriate shaping is what costs so much, I imagine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> So how is the accuracy?

How many shots will it take you to hit a missile 50 miles away? 100 miles? Parallel vs perpendicular path?

</comment><comment><USER34> Obvious question: when was the last time a US ship actually shot a big artillery gun at a target?

<comment><USER4> Gulf War.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTetKxtmI9c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTetKxtmI9c)

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> A bit like what Babylon 5 called "mass drivers".

<comment><USER36> That's how the term "mass driver" was used in Babylon 5, but generally you talk about mass drivers as coilguns propelling loads that combine a magnetic component that the coilgun acts on with the actual payload, usually either for propulsion or transport. In Heinlein's novel _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ the mass drivers sending products from the Moon to the Earth were re-purposed as weapons, which is probably where a lot of people first ran into the idea of electromagnetic projectile weapons, making it the default term for those some people use. Of course, to quote Niven "A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive."

So yes, a railgun is sort of like a mass driver. Except that railguns[1] rely on current flowing through the projectile between two rails and coilguns[2] rely on the current flowing through a loop around the projectile. And mass drivers are a sort of railgun where the projectile isn't a specially designed bullet but a spaceship or hunt of rock or pretty much anything combined with a magnetic sabot, where as this fire specially designed projectiles.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Being a radical pacifist I aide: I always wanted real rail guns (too much quake).

</comment><comment><USER38> There is no one to shoot.

<comment><USER39> There doesn't need to be anyone to shoot - it is there to prevent those who attempt to be something to be shot at.

Remember, it took one bomb to end WWII.

<comment><USER40> Two bombs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Metal Gear?

</comment><comment><USER42> The BFG is still a better weapon.

</comment><comment><USER43> I would not be surprised if "the enemy" already have the capability to create something similar.

<comment><USER44> well they certainly can claim such, even present photographic evidence, maybe even a video. Yet you have to ask, who can verify the claim?

Now defending against such is something that would be interesting, I doubt the Navy's own laser systems, current or ten years out, would be up to it. Seems to me the best way to avoid it is not being there. So against fixed targets this is pretty much a real threat.

<comment><USER17> Why do you doubt the Navy's lasers? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfYUyrKRng](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfYUyrKRng)

Everything I've heard says that they've been very successful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> This is not news. This rail gun tech has been around for years. Here is a video posted in 2012 which shows the exact same gun: [http://youtube.com/watch?v=eC2hu9bildA](http://youtube.com/watch?v=eC2hu9bildA)

<comment><USER46> Interesting it's exactly the same images. Why is this news?

<comment><USER45> I think the US Navy wanted some positive press coverage.</comment></comment></comment>


Need advice for restarting my career - <AUTHOR> I have a bachelor degree in Software-Engineering, worked for 2 years as an IT-Consultant in a company which produces product configurators. The whole software is based on an own language, own IDE, completely own environment, specialised for customers like machine engineering companies which can enter their products in their configurator via different methods (e.g. wysiwyg mouse handling), so easy to use for somebody who doesn't know how to write code. Then I worked 2 years for another company which customises ERP Software, regular software development with VB.Net, VBA, MS SQL. After this I worked part time as freelancer for a project in which I worked before from my first company, so again the company-own stack. Here and there I had smaller projects, but nothing complicated.
After a while I quitted all that projects and started to work as a dive instructor in Thailand.
Now after 1,5 years I want to relocate and work abroad as a software developer, but my skill set is limited through my jobs before. I would say I am a fast learner, but I don't know where to start. Most of the job offers demand couple years of experience in that stacks. I would love to find smaller projects which use the current web technologies. Of course I don't expect to get paid like in my jobs before if I don't have any projects done before with the needed skill set. On the other hand, the jobs i found on upwork are mostly underpaid, right?! I even thought about to contribute to os projects on github, to build up a portfolio, but I don't know what. Always when I start somewhere I think that this doesn't help me in my ongoing job search. Also it´s hard for me to work on something when i am not using the particular software by myself.
tl;dr
Fast learning software developer with limited skill set and no portfolio, needs advice on how to restart career. Perfect would be a junior position with small payment, as long as i learn something new and fill up my portfolio with it... realistic? <comment><USER2> You need to rethink your worth.

Seems like you are quite the profile. Demand the pay you deserve. Bachelor in SW-eng, 4 years of professional diverse work, dive instructor - working under pressure, meeting people, outgoing, seeking new challenges.

Yes technology changes, but really if you have a deep understanding from your universities you will catch up up quick.

Just because you don't know all the current buzz-words the HR recruiters put on the job offer (that they probably do not understand themselves) you should not feel like you need to compromise on your pay.

</comment><comment><USER3> > Most of the job offers demand couple years of experience in that stacks

Recruiters put that in their requirements to stop people applying they think won't be good enough. If you feel confident enough just apply regardless and fudge on your resume, you'll do great!</comment>


MacBook Pro Keyboard Why Apples Dust Excuse Is Wrong[Teardown and Explanations] - <AUTHOR> https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/bjtyaw/macbook_pro_keyboard_failures_why_apples_dust/ <comment><USER2> MacBook Pro 2018. Issue of repeating keys 2 weeks after I bought it. Then more keys. Now it's "settled" to O, I and R. Unshaky, a small app that prevents double firing of a key, fixes the issue for all keys, but somehow the O still has issues. I started observing the weirdest phenomena. Such as: amount of failures change based on the material of the surface I'm writing on. Glass is better then wood. Also, the position of my hands while writing has an effect on that too. While writing on my lap, I see less misfires. I went to the Apple Store here in Berlin. They said they would try and repair it under warranty. They have a 7 working days intervention time for this issue. Unbelievable. "Do you know that people actually work with their laptops, right?". Sad face of the Genius, vague excuses, no actual answer. This is a mess, and a big one. It's affecting Apple's most loyal customers. Up to the point that for the first time in 15 years I'm thinking of switching to a Windows laptop, if not for the fact that everything else about this computer is so damn amazing :(

<comment><USER3> Shit like this is why I run macOS on my XPS 13. If Apple aren't willing to get their shit together, why should I wait for them?

<comment><USER4> I've been thinking of doing the same. How was the install on that machine?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Perhaps the point of failure is not located inside the mechanics at all. I could imagine that dust is not necessarily always 100% non-conductive and might have an impact on pcb traces if their routing is very close (sporadic shortening).

Another interesting test would be heating up those microchips and see if potentially lose pins might be reflowed by this procedure.

</comment><comment><USER6> #justchangeitback

</comment><comment><USER7> Out of curiosity, are there any 2016 mpb owners out there that do not have any issue with their keyboard?

<comment><USER8> I've got a 2016 mbp, I got my keyboard serviced twice in the first year because of sticky keys, and then everything went fine and still is (finger crossed...).

I must say I actually love the butterfly keyboard, and I wouldn't change it back. Obviously, a _working_ one.

<comment><USER9> Same. I have a 2016 and the top case has been replaced twice. The second time I got the newer keyboard with the difference control and option key markings. It's been over a year since that one and everything has been fine.

I also really like the keyboard.</comment></comment></comment>


You can't code away their wealth - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEU632_Em3g <comment><USER2> Is there a transcript available?

<comment><USER3> ^^ in general for any posted Youtube link.</comment></comment>