Ask HN: Freelancer? Seeking freelancers? (July 2011) - <AUTHOR> Since the whoishiring bot seems not to have run...<p>Please lead with either SEEKING WORK or SEEKING FREELANCER, your location and whether remote work is a possibility. <comment><USER3> SEEKING WORK

Cambridge/Boston, MA area or remote.

I'm the author of the CoffeeScript book, soon to be in print from PragProg: <http://pragprog.com/titles/tbcoffee/coffeescript> I also run @CoffeeScript on Twitter. I gave a talk about CoffeeScript at the latest RailsConf and am slated to present on CoffeeScript at the Web 2.0 Expo in October and Øredev in November. So as you might guess, I'm fond of CoffeeScript, particularly in conjunction with jQuery on the frontend and Node.js on the server.

Contact me if you think you might have a project I'd be interested in, especially if it involves novel UI design and data visualizations.

</comment><comment><USER4> JDownloader - Nürnberg (Bavaria, Germany) - full time:

<http://wemakeyourappwork.com>

Who you'll be a part of: We're the developers of JDownloader, the market leading download management tool with over 15 million happy users. On top of that, we work on client-side applications for some of the top 200 websites worldwide.

With only 3 people, we're still a relatively small, but highly motivated team with high aspirations, great opportunities and an extremly optimistic outlook on the future. Joining us, you'll have the opportunity to experience rapid growth right when it's happening while actively being a part of building and growing a big company.

What you'll do: As (Senior) Java Developer, you're in charge of diverse responsibilities and work on them either alone or in teams. You're responsible for parts of JDownloader, but on top of that will also have your own projects or products, for which you take the lead developer role.

Because we usually don't have strict deadlines or draconic specifications, we expect you to prioritize and get things done by yourself. You should feel cozy in your code, but also keep an eye on things like SEO strategy, project- and product management as well as user interface and experience. Your own ideas and innovations for projects, features or products are more than welcome and will actively be supported.

Send your resume, links to your current/past projects, social profiles or whatever you think we should know about you to e-mail@appwork.

We're looking forward to working with you :)

<comment><USER5> Are you really looking for a freelancer, or do you want a full-time arrangement?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> SEEKING [REMOTE] WORK

I'm fluent in C, Common Lisp, Python, Javascript, PHP, basically everything that fits the "normal" programming model (OO and imperative and functional), with 15 years of hardcore coding.

Currently working in web (backbone.js, my own rails-like framework in PHP, some ruby for automated testing) and embedded software (ARM, linux kernel development, node.js and python on embedded platforms, 8 bit AVR development).

I am interest in projects that have a "creative" side, being pretty involved in building art installations, and the arts themselves (music, drawing, visuals). I wrote a book for o'reilly germany about arduino, and give workshops about electronics, arduino, processing (see <http://arduino.ruinwesen.com/> for example).

I am looking for work to fill up my queue (currently working half-time), and would prefer small projects (30 - 90 days). I am mobile inside germany, but prefer to work remotely.

Portfolio (up to 2010): <http://portfolio.ruinwesen.com/>

CV: <http://bl0rg.net/~manuel/cv-english.pdf>

github: <http://github.com/wesen> (most of my hacking is in private repos though)

</comment><comment><USER7> SEEKING FREELANCER

Hi - this is Paul and Jay from MakeLeaps. We're here in Japan, we run the Tokyo Hacker News meetups, and we're working on an online invoicing tool.

We're looking for someone experienced in Django/Python/HTML/CSS/jQuery to help us build out some modules. If things work out well, and if you're interested, we could also look at moving to a full-time arrangement.

If this sounds interesting, please hit us up on email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER8> SEEKING [REMOTE] WORK

I'm very good with Python and have 3 apps running on GAE.

Python, Tornado, Google App Engine, Javascript (jQuery, learning Backbone.js), PostgreSQL, MySQL, Linux and VPS (Linode), MongoDB.

Some GAE work (Python):

<https://github.com/ccarpenterg/todolist/wiki>

<https://github.com/ccarpenterg/todolist>

<https://github.com/ccarpenterg/presidenciables>

<http://todolist-app.appspot.com/>

<http://www.presidenciables2013.cl/>

Tornado, Google Maps API and PostGIS (PostgreSQL):

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2714360>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2674266>

Blog: <http://ccarpenterg.posterous.com/>

Some experience with Graph Algorithms.

</comment><comment><USER9> SEEKING WORK

Nomadic - currently in New Mexico and heading towards the west coast around mid-July.

I've worked professionally with python, ocaml and erlang. I've worked in search ( <http://bit.ly/ji-texsearch-opt> , <https://github.com/jamii/texsearch> ), testing ( <http://bit.ly/ji-fuzzer> , <https://github.com/jamii/ocamlcheck> ), distributed systems ( <http://bit.ly/ji-mealy> ) and am making inroads into p2p ( <https://github.com/jamii/dissertation> , <http://bit.ly/ji-telehash> , <https://github.com/jamii/erl-telehash> ). I have a strong background in math (real analysis, probability, discrete maths) and computer science (randomized algorithms, AI / epistemic logic, machine learning).

I'm willing to work on anything but my main interests are distributed systems and p2p networks. My current project is described here <http://bit.ly/ji-mist> \- if you are working on something similar or interested in collaborating please get in touch.

Right now I'm fully engaged but I will be available again around the end of July.

Resume - <http://bit.ly/ji-about>

Blog - <http://bit.ly/ji-blog>

Github - <https://github.com/jamii>

References - [http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=65525388#recommendat...](http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=65525388#recommendations)

</comment><comment><USER10> SEEKING WORK

Nomadic - in central Washington state until sometime in September. Would prefer projects that can be completed by October, not sure I'll be freelancing after that.

Studying CS with good grades at a top university.

I have experience building web applications for in-house use by clients, using Ruby (Rails) and Python (used Pylons and later Pyramid, and did a little bit of Django). While I mostly did server side, I certainly know my way around the front end.

Most recently I've been doing mobile development; iOS mostly, I have yet to launch anything for Android. I'm proficient in C and Objective-C, and 'getting there' with Java.

I also have non-work experience with Erlang and Haskell.

My website (with links to resume, github, contact, etc.) is at <http://zuwiki.net/>. Prefer contact by email or XMPP at email@example.com.

Oh and I'll accept bitcoin, but I'm no zealot :P

</comment><comment><USER11> SEEKING FREELANCER

Denver, CO USA

Run a small webdev agency, and need a Django / JQuery / HTML developer to help with occasional overflow work (~20hrs / month currently, could grow significantly over time).

Remote work is perfectly fine. My email is in my profile. Please send examples of work (github, websites, etc.) and your expected hourly rate.

Thanks!

<comment><USER12> Hey Denver, We are a web coop. Our mission is to help you help others online. We often collaborate as part of multi-disciplinary 'do good' teams that make the world better. Our specialty is in designing and programming technology solutions that meet socially conscious business objectives.

Ideally, we would work with you on rate that would foster long term relationships with you and your client base. Find us online at: www.colab.coop

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> SEEKING [REMOTE] WORK

Porto, Portugal, E.U.

Have keg, will travel. Will go on-site for time periods if required.

Backend:

* Currently Python/Javascript developer, Django mostly; Google Appengine skills

* Lots of past experience with PHP, including some Zend Framework, Propel, ZetaComponents (formerly known as ezComponents)

* Experience with Java in content management applications: Struts, Hibernate, Jboss Seam. Many beers ago.

Frontend:

* Dojo Toolkit (including dijit's)

* JQuery

Tooling:

* virtualenv, pip

* Git, Mercurial, SVN

General:

* self-learner, "do it with the best possible quality" mindset

Latest pet project

* <http://hnmood.appspot.com>

Links

* <http://twitter.com/zemanel>

* <http://zemanel.eu>

* <http://github.com/zemanel>

* <http://pt.linkedin.com/in/josemoreira>

* <http://djangopeople.net/josemoreira>

</comment><comment><USER14> SEEKING FREELANCER (REMOTE or Portland, OR, USA)

BDD / Ruby on Rails / HTML / CSS / jQuery / SQL / Linux

I build web apps and other business systems for my clients; looking for someone to help out or potentially take the lead on some of the projects

~40 hrs/wk for several months.

Contact info is in my profile. Please send work samples and hourly rate.

<comment><USER15> Do you take on any python work? I have a considerable experience building python apps. My portfolio: <http://sidmitra.com/portfolio.html>

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> SEEKING FREELANCER Small interactive agency in NYC is looking for a solid Python/Django developer for a couple of days worth of work. Remote work is preferred. To be considered, you must supply live samples of your latest work. No recruiters please. Contact info is in profile.

</comment><comment><USER17> SEEKING FREELANCER {REMOTE OK}

What? B2B SaaS product focused on Small Businesses in the HR/Time&Attendance space. Thus far been built in Python/Django.

When? From now until maybe the end of July. Potential for more if launch of product goes well.

Drop me an email (in profile) and I'll be more than happy to discuss details.

</comment><comment><USER18> SEEKING [REMOTE] WORK, Canada

Web Programming - PHP, Perl, Zend Framework, MySQL, Facebook Apps, Smarty, SVN, GIT

Blog: <http://devcha.com> Sites: <http://slavi.biz>, <http://WebWeb.ca>, <http://fbtab.net>, <http://seofilter.com> <http://isocialtrader.com> (the site is under construction but the fb app is running) <https://github.com/lordspace>

</comment><comment><USER19> SEEKING WORK (REMOTE or Seattle, WA, USA).

Java developer working mainly with Grails and Android. Would prefer short-term FT (<90 days) or any PT.

Current work involves building location-based services on Android and Java / Groovy / Grails / JMS / PostgreSQL / PostGIS / EC2. I also have a sysadmin background and would love a chance to do any DevOps work (esp. with Puppet).

<https://github.com/petedoyle>

resume: [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18509454/persistent/hn/Resume- PeteDo...](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18509454/persistent/hn/Resume-PeteDoyle- July2011.pdf)

petedoyle at gmail.com (email / XMPP)

</comment><comment><USER20> SEEKING WORK

Nomadic - Currently in Boulder, CO for the summer.

Generalist developer looking to build up clientele. I have a strong background in scientific computing / algorithms, but I've been recently working with Node.js and websockets and have been loving it.

Got some number-crunching that's dog-slow and don't know why? I'd love to talk to you. I love a challenge.

C, C++, Python, Numpy + Matplotlib

Currently working with: Node.js, MongoDB, jQuery, underscore.js

Would love an excuse to learn: Erlang, OpenCL, Clojure, backbone.js

Resume: <http://bit.ly/jeremy_resume> Email in profile

</comment><comment><USER21> SEEKING WORK - 30-90 day projects only

New York, USA / Berlin, DE

For the HN audience: Python, PHP (please daddy not again), MySQL, memcache. Django and various other frameworks. JavaScript, jQuery, CSS, X/HTML naturally.

A discount for you if I get to use your project as an excuse to learn Scala.

(PS: Sorry, I will not work on your Rails app - I am eagerly awaiting the passing of the Ruby fad.)

Otherwise: Perl, C, C++, sh, m4, make, etc.

Big company? For years my focus was security, network, and systems administration. Everything from Nagios to Graphite.

Member of the Eastern Standard Tribe (despite my bed being in CET).

I accept Bitcoin.

+1 (800) 403-1126 / email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER22> SEEKING WORK

Architect/Civil engineer, software developer. Madrid, Spain. Can move through Europe if necessary.

Ruby on Rails, specialized in creative work, digital art and graphics. Other languages and frameworks, including Scheme, C, C++, D, and to a lesser extent Javascript, Bash, Java, Assembly, Objective-C.

You can see my "software art" portfolio in <http://castrocastilla.com>

We can use webconference, desktop sharing and technologies to ease remote working. I can also further clarify my background and skills.

</comment><comment><USER23> SEEKING WORK

Japan or remote

Portfolio: <http://mattmccormick.ca/portfolio>

Strongest experience with PHP, MySQL, J2EE, jQuery, YUI, Zend Framework. Have also done some django and Perl. Can do everything from the front-end code to server maintenance although my preference is in the back-end code.

I am also interested in getting into Android development so if you are interested in a developer that picks up things easily then please contact me.

Will respond to email within a day - firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER24> SEEKING WORK

Hi! I'm Lorenz. I work as a freelance software developer in Berlin, Germany. I develop web applications using Ruby on Rails, HTML, CSS and JavaScript.

I am also a certified Scrum Master with two years of project management experience at bild.de and can cover for your linux system administrator in a pinch.

If you have a project, I'd love to talk to you! Also check out my website at <http://lorenzkitzmann.de/work.html>

<comment><USER25> betterplace.org is looking for freelance (and full-time) Ruby an PHP hackers. Please check: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2730631>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> SEEKING WORK - Remote or temp on site (pay + per diem)

American nomad/vagabond currently in Australia, returning to USA mid July.

I do full stack dev (LAMP / NodeJS) but am looking for JavaScript / front-end dev OR front end web performance optimization (WPO) work.

Not looking for equity only deals.

<http://driverdan.com>

<https://github.com/driverdan/>

<http://razorfast.com>

</comment><comment><USER27> SEEKING WORK

\</comment><comment></comment><comment> MetaOptimize </comment><comment></comment><comment>

Ph.D. in Machine learning + natural language processing. Big data. Data mining. Text analysis. Data strategy. 10 yrs experience in these specialties. 20 yrs generalist coding/engineering experience.

Recommendation systems. Better search. Classification + categorization. etc.

I am currently wrapping up a large project and want to fill up my pipeline. Myself, or a team that I assemble, depending upon the scope of the project.

Remote opportunities only.

</comment><comment><USER25> SEEKING FREELANCER

Berlin, Germany

Non-Profit Startup betterplace.org is seeking for someone experienced with PHP/jQuery/HTML/CSS.

More info: [http://blog.betterplace.org/de/2011/06/28/gesucht-fur-die- be...](http://blog.betterplace.org/de/2011/06/28/gesucht-fur-die-betterplace- solutions-gmbh-php-webentwickler-mw-als-freelancer-freier-mitarbeiter/)

If your German or translations skills are good enough to understand the offer, please contact us.

</comment><comment><USER28> SEEKING WORK

Python/Django Developer in New York City (& remote).

Remote work preferred, available for face-to-face meetings in NYC area. Can also do Javascript/jQuery, PHP, Adobe Flex/Air and iOS/iPhone/iPad.

Would love to learn Ruby/Rails -- I'll give you a discount if you give me the opportunity.

I'm a full-stack guy and enjoy backend, frontend, and infrastructure work.

Contact info at <http://brooklynsoftworks.com>

</comment><comment><USER29> SEEKING WORK

Germany or remote.

Generalist with 20 years Unix/Linux experience, on the Internet as long. M.Sc. in computer science and linguistics. Particularly deep knowledge in security, crypto, dynamic routing.

I can handle pretty much any backend/infrastructure/architectural tasks, both programming and administration. I'm especially interested in Hadoop or high- scalability solutions in general.

Ping me for my resume: firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER30> SEEKING WORK [remote, start in Aug]:

Just off contract as lead dev for Kohort.com; PHP Web developer with MVC framework experience (5+ years).

* Zend Certified * Symfony * CodeIgniter * Kohana (preferred) * MySQL Db * API integratoion * Git/SVN * javascript frameworks (jquery, dojo, moo, etc)

I created The Home Depot Garden Club years ago. I love coffee and flying (am a certificated flight instructor).

Location: VT USA My startups:

www.expercraft.com www.flyinghighcoffee.com

rob at riggen dot org

Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER31> SEEKING WORK

(REMOTE, or local to Cleveland)

In a couple of weeks I'll be wrapping up work on <http://appgravity.com> an Android search engine I'm building for a client.

Java (10+ years), Wicket, Google App Engine, GWT, Hibernate, Solr/Lucene.

Most of my experience is server-side, but I've also done both iPhone and Android apps.

Contact info at <http://www.armhold.com>.

</comment><comment><USER32> SEEKING WORK

iOS (with a bit of Android experience) and quite a bit of experience (albeit, on my own projects) in Ruby (mostly the Sinatra framework) and PHP.

I have a gap of a few weeks before starting my placement year (I'm a Computer Science student), but I likely will be looking for projects even when that starts.

Details in my profile, but see: <http://nickcharlton.net/>

</comment><comment><USER33> SEEKING WORK (Remote or Queens, NY) We are a new firm located in Queens, NY speciailizing in local SEO, tailored toward the special needs of individual customers. We can help you market your products the way it works best for you. You can reach us at 646-479-7707 or visit our website <http://envisionmt.org>

</comment><comment><USER34> SEEKING WORK

South African - lots of web dev experience in Ruby, Rails, JQuery and client side MVC. Node.js. ASP.NET MVC 3. MongoDB. I've done lot's of work on REST apis and OAuth. Also, this is weird, but I'm really good at screen scraping.

Remote is a possibility and a probability. I prefer working with European clients(time zones are better).

I accept Bitcoin for smaller projects.

</comment><comment><USER35> SEEKING WORK [remote until December] Web & UI designer looking to develop relationships with companies/agencies in NYC. 4 years experience. I prefer startups and tech-oriented projects. Get in touch: firstname.lastname@example.com or view work: <http://www.wellroundedgent.com>

</comment><comment><USER36> SEEKING FREELANCER

Portland, OR. Ruby, Redis, MySQL. Full stack with jQuery a plus. Double plus if you have written an app, mashup or gem.

</comment><comment><USER37> SEEKING WORK - Preference for 30ish day projects, will consider up to 6 mo.

CS Degree - Portland, OR, USA, Prefer remote work

Preference for mobile development Android, iPhone/iPad, WP7. (C#,Java,Obj-C) Client/Server, Facebook integration, SQLite

Also C#/.Net, Asp.Net, Silverlight/WPF, PHP, ASP, C++, MySql, SQL Server, jQuery Experience leading remote teams.

<comment><USER38> We are looking for a freelance mobile developer. If interested please get in touch at firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> SEEKING FREELANCER

Heyawanna Labs, San Francisco CA

We're a stealth startup building a platform that allows users to find and share interesting things to do. We're looking for: \- Infrastructure engineers: PHP, MySQL \- Product engineers: Javascript, Html, CSS \- UX/Designers: strong at UX

Email expressions of interest to firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER40> SEEKING WORK

I am a Rails developer who works on the full stack. I am very good with Rails, Javascript, jQuery, Coffeescript, BDD (RSpec, Cucumber, Steak), and a large number of the other standard gems. I am just coming out of a semi-large project, and will be available in about a week or so.

My email is in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER41> SEEKING WORK - <USER2>

Web UI designer - HTML5/CSS3/JS/Git - from concept to finished product.

Experienced working with developers, version control, template languages, Sass, Stylus, etc++ across time zones.

Portfolio site -> <http://nylira.com>

</comment><comment><USER42> SEEKING WORK (REMOTE, Denver/Fort Collins, CO USA)

Wordpress / jQuery / HTML / CSS / C# / Java / Coldfusion / PHP / SQL

My portfolio: <http://www.adambourg.com/> \-- contact info on web

# 303 835 3579

</comment><comment><USER43> SEEKING FREELANCER (Tokyo).

Need someone to just style a Tumblr blog, don't have the time to do it myself. Design is already done, you'd just be doing CSS. Send rate/etc to ryan [at] venodesigns dot net.

</comment><comment><USER44> SEEKING WORK

Remote or Singapore.

I am interested in Unit Testing, Automated Testing or Java development work. I'm familiar with Selenium, Grinder, JMeter, J2EE, Springframework, Hibernate, etc.

Email me iworkforthem @ gmail.com

</comment><comment><USER45> SEEKING WORK (REMOTE or York, UK)

Lots of experience building webapps quickly in PHP and node.js but I also do SEO/SEM consultancy and audits, contact info is in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER46> SEEKING WORK, New York iPhone/iPad/rails developer looking for work. Contact info in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER47> SEEKING WORK <http://adamculpepper.net>

</comment><comment><USER48> SEEKING WORK <USER2>
• I'm a web ui/ux designer

• Portfolio is <http://Masswerks.com>

• Email firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER49> Seeking Work

Looking for JavaScript only work. jQuery + Backbone (preferred). My email is in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER50> SEEKING WORK (REMOTE or Chicago area) C#, Web Services -- contact info in my profile

</comment><comment><USER51> Vidico seeking UI guy.

London, UK based.

<http://vidico.co.uk/>

Info in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER52> SEEKING WORK Sydney, AU/Django/remote/casual. contact: see profile.

<comment><USER16> Good Afternoon;

I run a software development shop in NYC, and I'm looking for someone to do a couple of days worth of the Python/Django development. Are you available?

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Seeking Freelancer

UX/UI Design

\- Please reply with your email or method of contact and I'll get back to you. 10-20 hrs/week. Photoshop + HTML/CSS.

<comment><USER41> You don't seem to have an email in your profile. I may be able to help you: <http://nylira.com></comment></comment>


Bootstrap v5: drop Internet Explorer support - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/pull/30377 <comment><USER2> IE 11 is still supported by Microsoft because it is tied to Windows 10 support.

If you're B2C you can probably ignore that and just not support it, but if you're B2B where you're selling not to users it's very hard to get away from supporting IE11.

If your users never directly interact with you (for example you sell white- label software which gets resold) then you just can't control your end-user tech stack enough.

If you're selling to partners who sell to companies who push out logins to their customers or user base then even if <1% of users use IE 11, that becomes 5% of companies having a user with it, which becomes 30% of the partners who are asking for IE11 support.

It's one thing to turn down 1% of users it's quite another to annoy 30% of your income stream.

As long as bootstrap 4 is supported (and the legacy bootstrap 3 support suggests it will be) then this doesn't have to be a problem of course, just one more thing to be aware of.

<comment><USER3> Doesn't Microsoft advise against using IE11 because of security reasons, except for critical internal applications that only support IE11? [0] It's mind blowing to me that companies continue to use an insecure browser, to the point of insisting on it.

Why can't vendors refuse to support IE11 on the grounds that it's a security risk? If you reframe the problem to "IE11 is insecure," surely customers will adapt?

[0] [https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie- is...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is-not-a- browser-so-stop-using-it-as-your-default/)

<comment><USER4> COBOL is still in use 61 years later. Institutional inertia is very much in style. Vendors can't dictate terms to the people paying the bills.

<comment><USER3> They can if the software is good enough and the customer really wants it.

<comment><USER5> not if the ones using the software are not the ones that pay

<comment><USER6> If you are big enough, and people want to use your software enough, you can dictate what you will support no matter who is paying.[0]

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash- you...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/30/flash-youtube- nostalgia)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Microsoft (or a third party) needs to do this:

I. Rename IE11 something like "MS ActiveX Runtime For LOB Network Apps" (AXR for short) or something like "MS ActiveX Player".

II. Create an MMC console entitled "AXR Domain Manager" that identifies a list of domains that open in AXR instead of the default browser. This list is controllable via group policy and other MS management tools.

III. Modify IE where if a website not in the aforementioned list is accessed, a popup saying "This site will be opened in your default browser" appears and the link opens up in the default browser.

It would make it so much easier to explain to non-technical people that IE11 is really a legacy app engine at this point and shouldn't be used for modern website usage.

<comment><USER8> Isn't that basically what Enterprise Mode does?

[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft- edge/deploy/emie-...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft- edge/deploy/emie-to-improve-compatibility)

> If you have specific websites and apps that have compatibility problems with > Microsoft Edge, you can use the Enterprise Mode site list so that the > websites open in Internet Explorer 11 automatically. Additionally, if you > know that your intranet sites aren't going to work correctly with Microsoft > Edge, you can set all intranet sites to automatically open using IE11 with > the Send all intranet sites to IE group policy.

<comment><USER9> I think the point is to do the reverse - if somebody does run IE11 directly (rather than Edge), and tries to open a website that is not in the system-wide whitelist, it forces them to use Edge.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There are still companies in Europe I work with that use IE11.

Since we switched from jQuery to Vue last year, we put a friendly reminder on each page saying IE11 is not supported (since its ES6 support sucks), but the tickets still came in. Finally we installed a header on all B2B sites that pops a modal error saying please don't use IE11. The tickets stopped abruptly. I was expecting complaints, but the majority of them already have alt browsers installed, so instead of asking, in this case forcing them to use a different browser worked much better.

<comment><USER11> Won't this be great when Google and everyone else kills off the user agent header? 5 years from now, there'll be no forcing/detecting users with old ipads, chromebooks or phones.

<comment><USER12> You should reread that article

<comment><USER11> Hmm, valid point.

[https://wicg.github.io/ua-client-hints/](https://wicg.github.io/ua-client- hints/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Even StackOverflow dropped IE11 support recently [1], mainly to be able to use CSS custom properties in their Dark Theme implementation.

[1] [https://stackoverflow.blog/2020/03/31/building-dark-mode- on-...](https://stackoverflow.blog/2020/03/31/building-dark-mode-on-stack- overflow/)

<comment><USER14> It makes sense when we assume that StackOverflow's audience are those who know enough not to use IE11.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I wonder how many of these ancient legacy systems are content to stay on IE because everyone coddles them with support? Chicken and the egg kind of thing. Why invest the time and money to modernize if devs will bend over backwards to keep them on life support?

<comment><USER16> More likely it's because no one wants to pay to upgrade the hundreds of barely supported in-house apps their company has that only run on IE 11 in compatibility mode.

<comment><USER17> The people making the decision judge their personal risk to be higher if they initiate the change than if they stick with the status quo, even with the chance that it causes a major breach—they might not get blamed for that, anyway. Same as most business decisions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I feel like the projects that rely on bootstrap are ones that have a larger IE audience.

I hate supporting IE, but that has always been the appeal of bootstrap for me.

<comment><USER19> You can remain using older versions then.

But they can't really stay relevant and keep supporting IE.

<comment><USER20> Why? Their plan for bootstrap v5 at the moment is just some cleanup to fix mistakes they made and remove the jquery dependency. I dont see the reason for these goals to not support ie11.

As much as i hate ie11 we have to still support it as its used in many businesses using our softwares

<comment><USER21> I think it makes sense to formally drop the IE dependency in versions sooner than when you're making changes that actually break IE.

Besides, replacing jquery May indeed be why they chose to drop IE right now. One of the biggest selling points of jquery, and one of the biggest contributors to its heaviness, is cross browser support including IE.

As one of the comments in the linked issue points out, dropping IE11 means they can also start using basic JS constructs, like Array.prototype.forEach.

<comment><USER22> > As one of the comments in the linked issue points out, dropping IE11 means > they can also start using basic JS constructs, like Array.prototype.forEach.

Array.prototype.forEach is supported from IE9.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Array/forEach#Browser_compatibility)

EDIT: It is the nodelist api that isn't supported in IE. Not Array.prototype.forEach.

Quite a lot of these basic JS constructs even if they are missing (most aren't in IE11) are very easily polyfilled.

Personally I think it is fine that they drop support if they don't feel the need to support it. Bootstrap 4 isn't going to vanish.

<comment><USER23> And if you can polyfill, that is good way to drop support for ie11. Personally instead of support ie11 out of the box, have have create custom build or expect them to do polyfilling themselves. This way they can optimize for the remaining browsers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I have access to analytics for a big government site. 11% of all traffic in March 2020 was IE11.

<comment><USER25> I have access to order processing logs from a small site whose customers use Windows and who are generally not very technical.

Of people who actually order:

      36% Chrome
      26% Edge
      19% Firefox
      19% IE11

<comment><USER11> No problem. If you drop support for ie11, those stats become:

Of people who actually order:

      44% Chrome
      32% Edge
      23% Firefox

Unfortunately total orders will drop...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The only reason we still "support" IE11 in my company is that a "significant" number of our users visit us in their working-hours from IE11.

During the weekend this kind of traffic drops significantly, which means to me that people using IE have to, and not choose to.

</comment><comment><USER27> As a provider, supporting old tech stacks sucks. They're clunky, have all kinds of warts and annoying workarounds for stuff that got improved in future versions.

As a consumer, being told my light bulbs won't work with the new fixture is a great reason to no longer work with that provider.

As a provider that knows this, I'd rather support the old tech stack right up to the point my ability to keep the lights on isn't at risk.

</comment><comment><USER28> Is it going to be completely broken / inoperable or just "not quite perfect"?

<comment><USER29> Reading through the changeset[1], this isn't a minor "some styles out of line" update, they're removing a number of polyfills that were there to only serve IE11 that affect many of their core components. Without testing it out, I would expect most components that use Javascript for functional enhancements to be broken. Most of the style changes are fairly minor and nothing you couldn't fix as you go, but the script changes are breaking changes.

[1] [https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/pull/30377/files](https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/pull/30377/files)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> IE 11 legacy support is a dream compared to having to support IE 8 and lower back in the day. The JS engine on IE 9 was about 10X faster than the one on IE 8.

<comment><USER31> I remember thinking "Once IE6 is dead I'll never complain about browsers again". IE11 is still pretty fantastic compared to IE6.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I despise the fact that IE11 is still used, but it's used by a quarter of our users at the large company I work at.

We don't use Bootstrap, but hopefully this encourages the companies that _do_ use it to usher their users to something more modern and secure.

<comment><USER33> Never underestimate an IT departments ability to not give a fuck. I once got a bug report from a colleague complaining about our website not working in Firefox. I couldn't reproduce it locally, so I got to her computer and realized that Firefox updates (?!) had been blocked. Everyone in that department was stuck on Firefox 12, when the current version was 60+. Turns out that not even evergreen browsers are safe from overzealous policies.

And this was on a pretty big media company with a large digital footprint.

<comment><USER34> At least govt side sometimes the staff either don't know or don't have a budget so once something works they've learned to absolutely lock everything down has hard as they can so it can't be messed up. This is partly because vendors willing to deal with a govt procurement cycle often are selling total junk (for high prices).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Don't forget the fact that some (how much ?) users visit websites with IE because it's the default browser on their entreprise setup, but admins have installed Firefox alongside for compatibility with modern websites.

So dropping IE is almost a service for them.

Source : french administration with thousands of employees.

</comment><comment><USER36> I'm even not sure what an average experience on IE11 would be for any users.

I push as much as I can to POs / stakeholders to just disable non-critical features on IE11 and just leave the basic functionality.

I doubt anyone using IE11 likes that fact, so sounds good to give them just another reason to complain about their experience to their superiors. I will definitely never see "The product that just works on IE11" as a slogan, so being competitive in this won't be reasonable argument.

<comment><USER37> Ha, my office's intranet is MS SharePoint, the menu is broken in Chrome. I sent them the CSS to fix it (unnecessary divs are added, you just need the right selector and you can display:none them all) ... worked fine in IE11, apparently that's justification for a WONTFIX (fixed it for myself with uBlock).

Lots of emails come around saying use/don't use IE11 for this operation because half the time it doesn't work, and half the time the sites being linked aren't standards compliant.

As an ex webdev it's hard not to be annoyed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> What are some good alternatives for developers who don't want to lose 2,39% (or whatever the current MSIE11 market share is) of their visitors/revenue?

Bulma claims 90% compatibility with IE11 at least. Foundation 6 seems to support IE9+.

<comment><USER39> Market share != revenue share.

<comment><USER40> _Market share != revenue share._

This can certainly be true.

The amount of revenue my company generates from IE11 users is at least an order of magnitude more than its Chrome, Firefox, and Safari users combined.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> A progressively enhanced site should work fine in text mode on IE11.

<comment><USER42> Maybe for some CSS sure, but there's so much has happened in the realm of web APIs and JavaScript that certain things are nearly impossible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Why aren't IE users considered more when thinking about accessibility? The best practice is to incorporate a11y accessibility standards to accommodate the small percentage of users who use screen readers and/or have color blindness/other disabilities. Why are we so quick to drop IE11 support when supporting users with disabilities is just as much work if not more? And possibly are a smaller percentage of users than IE users? You'll never read "Bootstrap stops supporting screen readers and removes aria tags in v6".

By extension, can we classify IE usage as a disability? Only half joking: I imagine a lot of current IE users are either doing it because of work or because they are technologically illiterate.

<comment><USER44> Disability isn't a choice

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Well, this is a mistake.

Nobody likes to support IE11 but dropping support moves Bootstrap 5 from "just use Bootstrap" to "Bootstrap has tricky pitfalls". Before someone can use Bootstrap 5 they need to be sure and confident that they don't need IE11 and never will.

<comment><USER46> IE11 was supplanted by Edge _years_ ago. Windows 10 ships with Edge preinstalled (it comes with both, but you're not stuck with IE). Windows 7 and older are no longer supported by MS. The only in-between is Windows 8 which everyone hated so I doubt it has a huge market share, especially in enterprises which are the only ones who might be "stuck" with the browsers that come preinstalled on the OS.

<comment><USER45> That's fine, but irrelevant.

IE11 lives on because many corporations run software that requires it.

There's a network effect, because links don't open the a browser that's compatible with the destination, but in the same browser as the link. So the corp with one IE11 app wants to serve their intranet home page in IE11, and so they want everything to run in IE11.

There are mitigations and migration paths, but that's all swimming up-stream -- it incurs risk, and costs time and money -- so it happens slowly and only in spots.

To use Bootstrap 5 you have to answer this question: are corporations my customer, or could I ever pivot to a business strategy where corporations are my customer?

If you don't care about money, then you can just answer no if you want, and you'll be fine.

But the consumers you can reliably insist run modern browsers don't pay for websites (not directly), so if you are running a business you are either committed to an ad-driven model, physical goods model, with no b2b option, or you're going to keep IE11 in-play.

I just don't think most people want to make a far-reaching commitment about the nature of their future business before they develop their first web page. (They do it all the time, but not on purpose!) A framework like bootstrap should free you from coming to grips with all that, but bootstrap 5 pushes it into your face before you are probably ready for it.

<comment><USER47> > To use Bootstrap 5 you have to answer this question: are corporations my > customer, or could I ever pivot to a business strategy where corporations > are my customer?

> If you don't care about money, then you can just answer no if you want, and > you'll be fine.

You come off as weirdly bitter and hostile here.

Obviously when you choose tech, you have to weigh the pros and cons. It's part of our job. Why is it not our job when picking the foundation framework for our web client?

If you need IE11 support you can stay on Bootstrap 4 (we're still using Bootstrap 3!) or any of the other CSS frameworks. What's the problem?

Also, most people aren't in a position where they might accidentally take on corporate business in the future, either. Seems like a weird niche position to hammer on. And if you were in that position yet you chose a framework that, what, only works in Firefox unstable nightly, then you made a bad call and maybe you'll learn from the decision. So what?

Seems like weak reasoning for Bootstrap to never push the envelope when there is still Bootstrap 3 and 4 available. That's why they cut a new brand each time instead of just bumping semver on the same Bootstrap product. Every major version hop is basically a new framework.

<comment><USER48> Are you really proposing that a new development today should choose to implement bootstrap 3? ...

<comment><USER9> They're proposing that new development today that _needs IE11 support_ (most of them don't) should use Bootstrap 4. What's unreasonable about that?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Somehow Bootstrap became the jQuery of CSS for me.

I used it excessively 6 years ago. Then the v4 took an eternity to release and I already switched to different solutions.

I would have thought that people that are still using it are doing so because of legacy support.

<comment><USER50> Which solutions?

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Good lord, looks like I'll have to wait a few years to use this update then. We have a decent amount of legacy browser users that need support. Wish that Bootstrap supported these still widely used browsers. Had the same problem with v4.

<comment><USER52> "Need" support, until you just force them to not need it.

Like how YouTube basically killed off IE6: [https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/4/18529381/google-youtube- in...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/4/18529381/google-youtube-internet- explorer-6-kill-plot-engineer)

As long as people don't have a reason to change, they won't. I say you drop support now and consider yourselves lucky that you can ditch your more difficult and problematic customers.

I mean, of course, I know this isn't a realistic course of action for everyone. But I wish it was.

<comment><USER53> It is usually the difficult and problematic enterprise customers using IE11 that also pay the most money. The choice between ditching customers and ditching a framework is not usually difficult.

<comment><USER51> Agreed, keeping your customers supported is #1 priority. This is a super hard lesson for many new engineers as they always want to use the latest and greatest bleeding edge tech. Unfortunately that want rarely aligns with the businesses needs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> This sounds like a terrible idea. Most of the reason to use a framework like Bootstrap is to avoid dealing with cross browser issues, looking at you IE

</comment><comment><USER55> It seems IE11 has become the new Python 2.7. I can only hope one day MS decides to pull the plug entirely, it can't run any new JS features and is clinging onto life.

Eventually, the web will just break (for example, http/3), and IE will be forced to retire.

We just need the "right" pieces to break before it can retire in peace.

</comment><comment><USER56> IE has become a tech debt that often corporations running an enterprise web app older than 10 years have to bear. I have clients who's web applications refuse to work on Chrome/Firefox and mandates the use of IE11 for proper functioning.

</comment><comment><USER57> FINALLY!

</comment><comment><USER58> What is the the expected release date for Bootstrap 5.

Being that it is still an early Alpha, this change may not have a significant impact for a while.

</comment><comment><USER59> I would love to drop IE11 support but its still generates way too much revenue. V5 won't be an option until that changes.

</comment><comment><USER60> Small world, the committer is one of the main contributors to MPC-HC (RIP)

</comment><comment><USER61> Are there any frameworks like this that support IE10 or IE11?

</comment><comment><USER62> Bootstrap needs a modern browser, but modern browsers don't need bootstrap.

Seriously: 90% of the value of bootstrap was homogenizing browsers and making horizontal positioning easier. Both these issues have improved dramatically, with browsers converging and CSS Grid becoming available, respectively.

At this time, bootstrap offers little more than a somewhat more opinionated set of margins and other defaults than what browsers ship with, plus some higher-level components.

<comment><USER63> This has less to do with "modern browsers" and more with how the site was designed and the opportunity cost of switching.

Why would the developers of a Bootstrap-based site that works fine overhaul it completely for CSS Grid, which has far less backwards compatibility? What would be the benefit?

Bootstrap is more than just a layout grid, it's also a UI framework, so abandoning it would mess up things like tabs, accordions, modals, etc.

Using Bootstrap isn't going to make your site less accessible or less secure.

[https://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox](https://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox)

[https://caniuse.com/#feat=css-grid](https://caniuse.com/#feat=css-grid)

<comment><USER62> I didn't mean to suggest that people should invest time to remove bootstrap. Only that Bootstrap offers far less now than it did in the past, and shouldn't be considered the default option when starting any new project.

Among the downsides is its size, obviously. I also consider the html it encourages among the ugliest things since the invention of PHP. This is from the documentation:

        <button type="button" class="btn btn-dark">

Classes such as "col-sm" are little better than style="...". While accessibility seems to have improved over the last years, my intuition is this happened in spite of the idea of semantically meaningful HTML being abandoned and not because of it. I used to worry about this, but had to abandon that particular fight for the sake of my mental health at about the time someone decided to name one of these frameworks "semantical".

But with CSS Grids and Flexbox, layout has become just as easy and actually more flexible than using Bootstrap. Why would you add code and become pigeonholed into one framework when you could archive the same using vanilla CSS?

<comment><USER63> > Why would you add code and become pigeonholed into one framework when you > could archive the same using vanilla CSS?

It's open source and can be forked and modded to your heart's content. How is that being pigeonholed?

Most developers don't work at companies where they roll their own UI components, and have QA and accessibility experts that can determine if their in-house accordions, modals, etc. are ARIA compliant.

The business case for switching over has to go beyond "it's vanilla CSS", especially if time can be better spent improving the user experience or product features.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I make sure my website is still 100% functional in IE11: Using only .jpg and .png (I don't use .gif on my website) for images; not using too much Javascript; using .woff instead of .woff2 webfonts; text-shadow instead of text-stroke to give one font an outline look; etc.

If I was building a node website which depended on a bunch of packages from developers who may or may not care about IE11, this would not be possible. But since I've done the entire design by hand with HTML and CSS for over a decade, I can keep it IE11 compatible without issue. Also, everything works if Javascript is turned off, and there are reasonable (if not great) fallback fonts for users who disable webfonts.

<comment><USER65> I support the second half of your comment. All websites (webapps excluded) should strive for as little JS as possible. It isn't all that hard to support IE11 for most things, if you aren't doing anything super crazy with your design.

The first half though...we have grateful degradation for this reason. There's no reason to serve larger woff fonts to all users when it is so easy to use it as a fallback, preferring woff2 when supported. There are a lot of simple ways to improve the experience and data consumption for modern devices without sacrificing functionality in IE11.

<comment><USER64> In my experience, the fastest way to serve a web font stack is via base64-encoded web fonts in a single "font" CSS file; it's more raw bytes but fewer requests. To do it this way requires having all of the web fonts be in the same lowest common denominator format, which is .woff.

I also add about 10k to the combined font stack file by adding hinting which is _only_ seen on 75dpi displays, because too many users are still using low resolution monitors.

The main reason I use woff fonts and their approximately 120k size is because the days of "font-face: Verdana" giving (almost) everyone the same looking website are a thing of the past with Android smart phones everywhere.

<comment><USER66> I'd be very careful recommending this method for loading webfonts. By Base64 encoding your fonts into a CSS file you are adding 1000's of bytes into a browsers critical path (since CSS is render blocking). You are also removing the browser ability to choose the most optimum font it supports (i.e. one with better compression like WOFF2). Requests are cheap, especially when using HTTP/2 (which multiplexes over a single TCP connection).

If you do use this method, I highly recommend testing both the standard loading method vs Base64 method on a low spec device (e.g. Moto G4 via WebPageTest) and seeing which performs best for your website.

This method used to be used on GOV.UK until we removed it 18 months ago. I wrote about the change here if you are interested: [https://technology.blog.gov.uk/2018/10/04/making-gov-uk- page...](https://technology.blog.gov.uk/2018/10/04/making-gov-uk-pages-load- faster-and-use-less-data/)

<comment><USER64> Speed is about the same on my system: 370ms from hitting reload to having the fonts downloaded when using inline CSS; 415ms from hitting reload to having all of the woff2 fonts downloaded when using external resources (I should point out the inline CSS actually has two more fonts). As I recall, the speed difference was more pronounced when I tried this a few years ago.

I have had issues with a single font file sometimes hanging when trying to load it, so having them all in one file is also more stable; I plan on getting new hosting soon who will hopefully not have those kinds of issues. I also very aggressively cache the font file so it is only loaded once every six months for people who have been to my web page before.

It's possible to avoid having base64 fonts block the loading of the page by putting the relevant <style>@import url('/fonts.css');</style> at the _bottom_ of the page, at the expense of having a "flash" before the font is loaded.

I enjoyed reading the linked blog entry. One thing which stuck out is how you guys are able to interact directly with the type foundry to get them to make the web fonts smaller. I don't have that luxury, but I do very aggressively subset my fonts, and I use zopfli with its most aggressive compression setting when making the WOFF fonts. I also use the Bitstream Charter font for italic and bold serif text, since that particular font is a very nice looking open source webfont with a very small size (download time) footprint. The main body text of Bitstream Charter is a little too thin (thin strokes) on Windows + Chrome (but it looks fine in IE, older Edge, and Firefox) especially on low DPI displays, so I use its (using more space and longer load time, alas) sister Charis SIL, a Bitstream Charter variant with thicker strokes, for the main body text.

One final thought: I think I still have an old Moto G3 with WiFi I can use to test things on that platform.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


GitHub: Adopting the Open Code of Conduct - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-conduct

<comment><USER2> I fully agree with the Code of Conduct (which has more and more become a thing recently), but I don't think it needs an extra mention or file in repositories.

Not harassing and respecting others is _common sense_. There's just no need to mention that.

I fear soon repository owners will be considered rude if they don't want extra clutter added to their repos (if this hasn't happened already).

<comment><USER3> In a large project one file isn't going to make a difference in number of files vs number of possible contributor conflicts, so it can only help. If your project is just you or a very small number of people I agree, no need for a CoC, any conflicts can be resolved ad hoc.

<comment><USER4> "one file isn't going to make a difference"

That's what they all say, every single time.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: A fun quiz to discover who's the smartest developer at your office - <AUTHOR> https://playaquiz.com/bM2rHGFzxJ683HDbQ/play <comment><AUTHOR> Hi all,

I've just built a small quiz platform based on a popular flemish tv show. Play this quiz with your colleagues and discover who's the smartest developer at your office. There are 5 rounds full of startup and typical dev questions. You can play with a beamer, a TV, iPads, whatever...

Stack:

\- Quiz Editor: Meteor \- Realtime Play Engine: Vue and deepstream

Let me know what you think. Enjoy playing!</comment>


Could better proposal have saved Death Star? How to write a killer proposal - <AUTHOR> http://www.mimiran.com/proposals/better-proposal-software-have-saved-the-death-star-how-to-write-a-killer-proposal/

<comment><USER2> This sample is definitely worth clicking through to see the mechanics of the proposal.

I think the intersection of pricing and proposals is pretty compelling. A lot of the background advice is interesting, but so hard to convey through reading.

But being able to craft proposals, and then have a system help manage the workflow around their progress sounds worth a try. I wonder how it would integrate with businesses where they may be using multiple vendors and have competing proposals.

<comment><AUTHOR> And you're right, it's hard to get really good at asking questions by just reading about it. But practicing is easy. As mentioned in the post, go to Barry Rhein's site and take the challenge. That's a great warmup.</comment></comment>


Self-Tracking - <AUTHOR> http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2010/05/self-tracking.php <comment><USER2> The flip side is, what choice do we really have? We can either try to improve ourselves with measurements that our brains may subconsciously game, or we just give up on improving ourselves.

My personal approach is to try to raise the bar past what a placebo can give me. Which is tough, because placebos can be pretty robust! It probably means I'm going to miss out on smaller-but-still-real improvements, but at least I have a chance to score the bigger ones. I don't know what else to do. Blinding yourself on which wine you are drinking is sort of possible, but a lot of interesting self-improvements can't be blinded even in principle; are you going to blind yourself to whether or not you're exercising?

I'm often more interested in cognitive improvements, but it's really hard to come up with a cognitive measure that is objective _and_ doesn't naturally rise over time as I practice it daily. Waiting for those things to stabilize can be a problem too; it can be months or even years.

</comment><comment><USER3> Article is much better than the title suggests. Worth a read.</comment>


Bitcoin Is a Terrible Currency, and Not for the Reason You May Think - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@Factory_of_Mirrors/bitcoin-is-a-terrible-currency-and-not-for-the-reason-you-may-think-80e08f13a3da <comment><USER2> > Bitcoin is hyperdeflationary

Am I the only one where this was the reason I was thinking?

Interestingly, thinking honestly about bitcoin made me a Keynesian.

<comment><USER3> Bitcoin is only hyperdeflationary because it's being pumped, to my mind. It's mostly used as an investment and speculation tool, _not_ as a currency, that is, not for paying for goods and services.

It's not (yet) "digital gold", but rather "digital tulips" [1].

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania)

<comment><USER4> Tulips are a dumb analogy. There, I said it.

Tulips come from seeds and are ornamental, once they are dead they can no longer be traded for value. There is no limit to the world-wide supply of tulips, and there is no such thing as distributed international observation and participation in tulips.

To further my antagonist response, the Smithsonian Mag recently did a report explaining that Tulip Mania was also not really a Tulip Mania and that reports were highly exaggerated; an author of a recent book on that time claims that there really is no lesson to learn from Tulip Mania, as tempting as the comparison may be.

[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was- real-...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip- fever-180964915/?no-ist)

<comment><USER5> Once digital currencies are dead they can no longer be traded for value. There is no limit to the world-wide supply of digital currencies.

<comment><USER6> There are limits to specific protocols, like bitcoin.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The main reason I never got into Bitcoin is that I considered its deflationary nature a disaster and crippling flaw (for a _currency_ ).

That said, it's become much less a currency and more a fiat commodity one stashes like beanie babies so my original reasoning isn't particularly applicable at this point.

<comment><USER8> Bitcoin has always been the game of finding the greater sucker... now more than ever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't find this argument persuasive. If the currency is liquid, you can simply spend the new currency rather than the old, while using the old currency you would have otherwise spent to acquire the new currency. The spending will have negligible impact on your investment outcomes, and you'll be supporting the currency that you're investing in.

<comment><USER2> That's a pretty big if. Also, currency is liquid nearly by definition, and bitcoin in relation to other currencies has demonstrated many properties that make it practically very illiquid (e.g. the uncertainty of day-to-day price changes).

<comment><USER9> The argument is basically an example of Gresham's law, which is used to explain why value-backed currency often loses out to fiat currency. IMO this doesn't apply to cryptocurrency because Gresham's law was formulated in contexts with lower liquidity and no electronic transmission.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I may not buy a pizza with my bits, but I'd sure as hell buy a house, pay off my student debt, or whatever my proverbial lambo is. I only have enough BTC for really one big ticket purchase in my life, even if it increases in value forever.

Actually, a deflationary currency is an interesting concept for Basic Income- if everyone is given an amount of BTC at birth, so that it appreciates in value by the time they're old enough to spend it, they have a nice nest egg to build off of.

Of course, it only works if the currency circulates. I wonder if there's real world examples of deflationary currencies. Has it ever been tried?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes I think of it as an investment vs. a currency. For example I may also sell TSLA stock to buy a house but not to buy groceries if I think it still has lots of room to run.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Solid Platinum is also not a very good currency. What is your point?

<comment><AUTHOR> As far as I know no one is arguing that platinum is a future global currency, or letting customers buy products with it. Both are increasingly true for Bitcoin.

<comment><USER4> You're an idiot if you don't accept platinum as a form of payment

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I don't think the deflationary nature of btc and other crypto that are a finite in design is necessarily a bad thing.

The most common objection is that it leads to intertemporal decisions. Is that really bad?

If you knew that your money increases in value over time you might only spend it when it's really necessary instead of driving an ever expanding economy that consumes a finite world.

Maybe a finite world needs a finite economy?

If my money reflect the wear and tear on our common ecology I might be more restricted in its use.

<comment><AUTHOR> A currency that discourages consumerism - interesting idea!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This volatility is exactly the reason it isn't useful _for now_. In the past countries have created currencies, and it's never been the case that they capitalize from 0 to _a lot_ in such a short time period. That's why the USD chart is meaningless as a comparison against the same timeline. Wait 20-50 years and then we'll see.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes I agree - perhaps in 20-50 years (and maybe earlier) but not anytime soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Flagged. This article brings nothing new or even interesting.

<comment><USER14> Not to mention the clickbaity title.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Bitcoin doesn't inflate enough, so there's no incentive to spend it.

<comment><USER16> I can't take it with me when I die, so I'll spend it at some point. Also, see marginal utility of value: [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marginalutility.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marginalutility.asp)

<comment><USER15> By the time you want to spend it it's possible there won't be enough liquidity to actually facilitate your transaction.</comment></comment></comment>