B612 is a highly legible open source font to be used on aircraft cockpit screens - <AUTHOR> http://b612-font.com <comment><USER2> Their own legibility study shows it's about around the same as Verdana: [https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png](https://i.imgur.com/M0C3TkY.png) (excerpt from the PDF in the download .zip, vertical axis is misidentifications). Their design goal was beating their current font (CDS), which seems a bit of a sandbagged goal if you look at the sample in the report. I wonder if we've reached a plateau of legibility for technical fonts after identifying the easy wins in typeface design for screens.

<comment><USER3> For those not aware, Verdana happens to be the font Hacker News uses.

<comment><USER4> But is Verdana provided as a webfont?

On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana.

<comment><USER5> > On mobile, almost no one can see Verdana.

But it's included in iOS ([http://iosfonts.com](http://iosfonts.com))?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm surprised they didn't cross or dot the zero. Surely differentiating O from 0 is important when eye fatigue is a problem?

<comment><USER7> How often do you see 0/O ambiguity inn non-programming context?

<comment><USER8> Passports. German passport has alphanumeric number but no O to avoid 0/O ambiguity.

<comment><USER9> Yes. Is that only an issue in German passports or generally applies to all passports?

<comment><USER8> It is a rule for German passports. US passports don't have characters. AFAIK there is no general rule for passports.

Also, some passport numbers stay with you for life (China), other change with every passport.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> For comparison, Boeing uses Futura in their cockpits:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_\(typeface\))

<comment><USER11> The 'p' and 'q' are mirror images here, which could be a problem for people with dyslexia. The new B612 font has clearly distinct shapes even after mirroring.

<comment><USER12> This sounds like a fair critique, but I'm not a dyslexia expert. Some honest questions:

Doesn't dyslexia involve transposing the positions of characters, not mirroring individual characters? Or do some/most dyslexics also sometimes misread letters as their mirror-image counterparts?

Considering dyslexics have difficulties with already very distinct shapes (i.e., most letters are pretty unique), would a relatively subtle difference between p and mirrored q actually reduce the error rate? Or is that "premature optimization" in that the drop in accuracy due to the p-q mirror images is dwarfed by the gain in accuracy of using Futura?

<comment><USER11> I remember reading about dyslexics liking Comic Sans because the letters have distinct shapes even after transformation. This then inspired the creation of specialist fonts that are supposedly better, but since I last read about it there's been some research suggesting it doesn't actually help, so I retract my previous post.

"Dyslexie font does not benefit reading in children with or without dyslexia":

[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11881-017-0154-...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11881-017-0154-6)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> To this day, I marvel during turbulence at how much easier it was to read pointer gauges than modern strip/numerical display EFIS displays. Don't even get me started with the touch screen trend. Thanks for trying to make the EFIS more readable. Airbus.

<comment><USER14> What does EFIS stand for? And, could I get you started on the touch screen trend?

<comment><USER15> Touch screens installed in the instrument panel are very hard to use in even light-to-moderate turbulence. Have someone shake your phone around while you try to dial a number and you'll have some idea of the difficulty. Knobs, and to a lesser extent physical buttons, give you something to hold onto. It may not sound like much of a difference but in my experience it's much, much less error-prone to have hardware inputs when the aircraft is getting bounced around.

<comment><USER16> Touch screens in cars are also a huge step backwards in usability from the buttons and knobs they replaced. I'm not sure why the switch happened.

<comment><USER17> For cars, my guess would be that a) it allows you to entirely disconnect the UI work from the work on actual car, and run it in parallel, and b) it looks cool and futuristic in ads. I don't see how either would apply for planes, though. There, I suspect it's an attempt to manage the amount of data a pilot needs to see at any given moment, and to enable equipment changes without rebuilding the cockpit.

<comment><USER18> The worst part of this trend is that now that the touch UX is handled entirely in software, the remaining physical controls often are as well. In my 2018 Subaru Outback, for example, the physical volume knob doesn't work until the system has "booted" completely, even though it might already be blasting music or radio resumed from the last time it was shut down. So there's those 2-3 seconds where there's no way to reduce volume, mute, anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Two other sans-serif fonts designed for legibility and widely tested:

"Transport" font used in UK road signs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_\(typeface\)) [http://www.roads.org.uk/fonts](http://www.roads.org.uk/fonts)

"Mandatory" font used in UK number plates: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_(typeface)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_\(typeface\)) [http://www.k-type.com/fonts/mandatory/](http://www.k-type.com/fonts/mandatory/)

<comment><USER20> Also DIN 1451: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_1451](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_1451)

<comment><USER21> Highway Gothic for the U.S.- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Gothic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Gothic)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> What's the deal with the license? This page mentions only the Eclipse Public License, while the actual Polarsys page and the GitHub repo mention/include three different licenses: the EPL 1.0 (!!!), Eclipse Distribution License 1.0 (BSD-like), and SIL Open Font License 1.1. Should I take that to mean it's multi-licensed and I can use this font under whichever of those licenses I choose? If so, what's the point of making EPL and SIL licensing options when the EDL has far fewer strings attached (and is more obviously compatible with other licenses, notably the GPL)?

Relevantly, the EPL 1.0 is incompatible with any version of the GNU GPL (as is the EPL 2.0 by default).

</comment><comment><USER23> B612 is the name of the asteroid from Le Petit Prince (The Little Prince). The narrator is a pilot.

<comment><USER24> So was the author Antoine de-Saint Exupery

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I had a chuckle at the background image using ALLCAPS, which is infamous for its lack of legibility - e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps#Readability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps#Readability)

<comment><USER26> That link claims that ALLCAPS tend to be read letter by letter.

I find that claim to be completely false, as I am learning to read text written in Cyrillic alphabet, when I do actually read the words letter by letter and I even get surprised when I finish reading a word.

In contrast, I can read text in all caps at about the same speed as lower case text. If there's any slowdown, I say I read all caps at 95% of the speed I read text in lowercase.

Later the same page says this: "all-capital text was read 11.8 percent slower than lower case, or approximately 38 words per minute slower".

In that case that later claim completely contradicts the former claim of letter by letter reading, which is IMO about five times slower, not just a few percent points slower.

In any case, ALL CAPS text is perfectly legible, and it is actually more legible than using something like cursive, including lowercase cursive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Only the parentheses look like brackets. Everything else looks quite nice. But for lisp programming, those bracket-looking parentheses are ugly...

<comment><USER28> Lisp is the canary in the mind shaft.

All programming languages have a bracket problem; Lisp just has a more intense bracket problem. Until the recent advent of 4K and "retina" displays, it wasn't practical to have significant weight variations in screen fonts for programming. It's now practical, and it's easy in font editors such as Glyphs Mini to swap in or modify brackets to be a lighter weight.

I've made many Lisp coding experiments: with preprocessors that eliminate most parentheses, with alternate symbols, and with various weights and sizes of parentheses. There's something to be said for the theory that parentheses should be lower case, just like identifiers. (I'm reminded of the "GET OFF MY LAWN" effect in Common Lisp; one can shut off the upper case defaults but most people don't stay around long enough to find out.) However, my favorite approach is to make parentheses light, but not too light. There's a sweet spot where you actually love the lightweight brackets, in Lisp code and everywhere else. You're conducting an orchestra, not engaging in a knee-jerk debate; if the trumpets play too loud, teach them to play at the right volume.

It took me ten minutes to swap in ()[]{} from SourceCodePro-ExtraLight, and copy a period into the center of the zero. This a fine Lisp font but not my favorite. I like Input Mono, or Courier Prime Code (both similarly modified).

[http://input.fontbureau.com/](http://input.fontbureau.com/)

The Input download can be customized to look nearly identical to B612, only better, and without the O0 and () problems.

<comment><USER29> _Until the recent advent of 4K and "retina" displays, it wasn't practical to have significant weight variations in screen fonts for programming._

Really? Bolded keywords and other tweakery was common on 512×342 OG Mac screens.

<comment><USER28> Did you like how that looked? I didn't. The resolution wasn't ready. The resolution certainly didn't support going lighter.

I'm trying to understand why lightweight Lisp parentheses haven't been a thing for 50 years. It's so obviously right once one tries it, with sufficient resolution. My guess is that "sufficient resolution" is both key, and recent.

<comment><USER30> I'd guess that most people who value typographic nuance and clarity find Lisp's lack of concessions to syntax makes reading code an extremely clunky experience. I think Lisp's (lack of) syntax adds up to a set of tradeoffs that actively repels visual thinkers/typography folks, compared to Miranda-style syntax.

NB Haskell folks are not any more likely than Lispers to think visually. A lot of Haskell code is difficult to read. But it does feel like the Miranda-style syntax (particularly pattern matching) has made the first few steps towards eliminating unnecessary structure-related cognitive load on the programmer.

Lisp partisans will probably reject this opinion, but IMO the presence of strings of matching parens in Lisp isn't something that needs to be restyled with a better font, it's something that needs to be designed out of the language.

Edit: I know this ground has been well-covered in the past. Usually the advice is that by using a proper editor and relying on indentation, parens just stop being a noticeable problem. Whether just restyling parens is cosmetic or not, it seems less powerful even than that advice.

<comment><USER28> Scheme is a stunningly beautiful language with inferred parentheses:

        define | edge? g e
          let
            $ es | edges g
              e2 | reverse e
            or (member e es) (member e2 es)

I used to rely on a preprocessor that translates back and forth to standard Scheme:

        (define (edge? g e)
          (let
            ( (es (edges g))
              (e2 (reverse e)))
            (or (member e es) (member e2 es))))

One gives up being able to use standard tools. For Emacs or Vim, one can write one's own tools, but it's nice to be able to try out everyone else's work first.

The central question for any programming language isn't how comfortably it welcomes casual newcomers; it's how effectively it creates a human:machine interface for the committed. Most criticisms of how Lisp looks can be likened to criticisms of a frozen screen from a crashed video game. One needs to play the video game. Lisp acquires its meaning in short time scales from the experience of syntax-aware editing, a live experience. Lisp acquires its meaning in long time scales from the experience of using macros to rewrite the language to exactly suit the problem at hand. Haskell is safer, faster, more densely expressive, but not as plastic. Lisp appeals to woodworkers; other languages appeal to people who like to buy nice furniture, sit in it and get to work. I can see both sides, and I've worked hard to experience both sides.

<comment><USER31> > beautiful language with inferred [...] a preprocessor that translates back > and forth to standard

Most focus is on transforming code for machine consumption (compilation). But underappreciated I think, is that code can also be transformed for humans. Reversibly (editing), and not (analysis). Colorization and outlining are common. Less common are syntax transforms like yours. Fortress-like mathification. Reverse templating and macros. Intensional programming. The idea of a collaborative-compilation environment with an editor-like UI.

So much potential fun. But so little R&D funding. And a discoordinated profession. So decades slide by.

<comment><USER32> > But underappreciated I think, is that code can also be transformed for > humans.

It's called pretty-printing. The name is underwhelming, but there are some advanced techniques for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> This might be a weird question , but within topic.

What makes fonts convey other information? Why is comic sans so derided? (It obviously is.) What makes the emotion of a font come out?

<comment><USER34> I always thought it was because it was used by people who thought it made their poorly written crap seem more personal and human, when in reality all they were doing was one exceptionally low-effort action: pick the one wacky font that shipped by default with Windows. But instead of making their writing actually seem more personal or human, it just made it look cheap and unprofessional because it was equally associated with the sort of output you'd expect from any child playing with a 1990s-era Windows computer.

(The right answer is instead to embed personality and humanity into the words themselves, which is comparatively much higher effort and indeed beyond the skill of many people.)

Over time we've grown accustomed to working within pre-packaged emotional bounds (e.g. the limited set of emojis) and the meme-status of the font has long since passed so it would probably not be quite the same _faux pas_ today as it was two decades ago.

<comment><USER34> [https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-door-sign- mockery...](https://www.seroundtable.com/photos/google-door-sign- mockery-19305.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> How does it compare to OCR-A? OCR-A font was made to be recognizable by 60s OCR tech. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCR-A](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCR-A)

<comment><USER36> OCR-A is my favorite monospace font. Sadly unicode support is obviously rather limited if present at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> [http://fly-out.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/B612-Leaflet.p...](http://fly- out.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/B612-Leaflet.pdf)

More info

</comment><comment><USER38> The period is really close to the word it follows, it looks very strange in the monospaced version for programming.

</comment><comment><USER39> Personally, I still haven't found a better font for reading and writing code than source code pro: [https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/source-code- pro](https://fonts.adobe.com/fonts/source-code-pro)

B612 seems much more like a Helvetica derivative.

<comment><USER40> Source Code Pro was a step down from Inconsolata that preceded it.

It's not hard to see why people want to make more infinitesimally-different fonts with their own name and a funny ampersand or (in this case) parentheses. What is never explained is why anybody else should care.

<comment><USER41> > _"Source Code Pro was a step down from Inconsolata that preceded it."_

I'm not aware of any shared history between Inconsolata and Source Code Pro. Do you know of any? On the on there hand, Inconsolata is heavily influenced by Lucas De Groot's Consolas.

<comment><USER40> As I noted, Inconsolata existed before they began work on SCP. It is an objective improvement on Consolas, and thus worthy of attention and change.

Normally, when putting in the effort to make something new, one tries to make it better than what came before, on some axis. Introducing a new thing less good than what came before is a waste of our time and a distraction from the better things. I don't doubt that designing SCP or B612 was educational for its designers, but that is not a good enough reason to adopt it, or even to study whether to adopt it.

The new thing should be better. Why is that hard to process?

<comment><USER42> Why should B612 be better for programming than Inconsolata, Consolas, or Source Code Pro?

For that matter, I don't think you can say that any one of those fonts is better than any other, for anyone but yourself. I find Inconsolata too narrow and cramped on the screen, compared to the wider SCP. And the cute lowercase "t" in Inconsolata is by comparison lost on me after 8 hours of coding, and I don't notice in absence in SCP.

<comment><USER40> In fact, aside from its weird glyph choices for some code points, SCR is very much like Consolas or Inconsolata of one point size up, but with a scan line removed -- e.g., SCP 9 is pixel-for-pixel a squashed Consolas 10, with trivial alterations. So it might be said to be "Consolas Squat with some weird glyphs".

<comment><USER42> I appreciate the education on typeface design, but that's not what I asked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Why didn't they put horizontal lines on the top & bottom of the uppercase I? I appreciate that I/i/l/L all look different, but if I was reading a word in that font for the first time and it had an I but not an L it could be easily confused.

<comment><USER44> I thought that was quite strange as well, particularly with the stated objectives of the font.

Would be interesting to see if there was any discussion about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> If the font works, I suggest we use it on airports flights information displays too. Those are not always very legible... (with the slashed 0, of course)

</comment><comment><USER46> On Windows, it has quite an odd look in the font viewer. It seems like it is not being anti-aliased for some reason. The unusual cutouts also seem very prominent on a 4k screen. I'll probably still try it at work, but I am guessing this is not going to displace my current font of choice. Thank you for sharing!

</comment><comment><USER47> I can't seem to get the font to show in vscode. I've installed the ttf fonts to ~/.fonts and refreshed my font cache, but "B612" as a font name doesn't seem to match anything, neither does "B612 Mono" or "Regular"

<comment><USER48> If you are using Linux put the (ttf) fonts in ~/.local/share/fonts/TTF/ instead.

<comment><USER47> The fonts are still accessible if they are in home, I found `fc-list` which gives the name for each of the font files.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> On a vaguely related theme, are there any open-source frameworks or designs for building things like embedded industrial dashboards or mission-critical control software? I'd love to build on something that already incorporated best practices.

</comment><comment><USER50> The colon and semicolon seem unusually small compared to other characters, making than rather hard to distinguish from one another. Trivial for a pilot perhaps, but rules it out for me as a possibility for programming.

</comment><comment><USER51> I've got a couple of different radar screens that will look great with this font!

</comment><comment><USER52> [https://github.com/polarsys/b612](https://github.com/polarsys/b612)

</comment><comment><USER53> Why leave zero/oh confusion possible by not slashing the zero?

</comment><comment><USER54> it is a very wide font, compared to programming fonts which are more tall than wide.

</comment><comment><USER55> I'd love it if HN could switch to this font. We use Verdana anyways, and B612 is close enough to it.

<comment><USER56> This is not a font to read prose in. It's also restricted to classical latin letters, which makes it a poor choice when text includes other letters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Yet Another sans-serif face, with dubious claims for legibility, as usual only vs. other sans-serif faces.

When will they learn? When will we?

<comment><USER57> If you look closely you'll see it's a serif font.

<comment><USER40> I looked closely, again, and see that it remains yet another sans font, of no greater interest than any of the last hundred.

<comment><USER58> Great, thanks for your input.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to Build a Unicorn from Scratch – And Walk Away with Nothing - <AUTHOR> http://heidiroizen.tumblr.com/post/118473647305/how-to-build-a-unicorn-from-scratch-and-walk

<comment><USER2> Without focusing on the details, I note the #1 issue here is failure to create a profitable company. Which strikes me as so common an outcome that it can't be called a unicorn.

And not getting anything after you build an unprofitable company is also very common, if not the most common outcome.

<comment><USER3> Consider the same story, but the ending is "The company was squeaking out a $1M/year profit, but a buyout offer came for $240M and the investors took it so they could cash out."

As an individual, if I could make a business with consistent $200k-$500k/year profit (as the sole shareholder), that'd be great for me. It'd be better than being an employee. But that would totally be an unsuitable business for VC.</comment></comment>


How the Zeros of the Zeta Function Predict the Distribution of Primes - <AUTHOR> http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/HowTheZerosOfTheZetaFunctionPredictTheDistributionOfPrimes/

<comment><USER2> Well and good, but it might be better to say "correlate with" rather than "predict." In the scheme of things, it's probably more accurate to say that pi(x) is self-generating, and it's the zeros of the zeta function that are tagging along for the ride.</comment>


In the future, office design plans will prioritize employee wellness - <AUTHOR> https://www.wellandgood.com/good-advice/office-design-ideas-wellness/ <comment><USER2> One important and increasingly proven aspect of employee wellness is to simply offer 100% remote working. Significantly cheaper, environmentally friendly and likely to provide more wellness benefits than any corporate facility.</comment>


The Greatest Game You Will Ever Play - <AUTHOR> http://thegreatestgameyouwilleverplay.com <comment><USER2> Eh. I've ascended in NetHack four times. It is a good game. It might even be a great game. But to call it "the greatest game you will ever play" is hubris; the game has really serious problems once you figure out how to reliably get past the first ten dungeon levels or so. It picks back up again by the time you're going back up with the amulet, but almost all of Gehennom is just a grind. I've lost more characters to boredom than I have to deaths when in Gehennom. I think that a lot of people conflate an RNG with potentially nasty outcomes with depth or intricacy, which, coupled with the game's age, gives NetHack a bit more of a shine than it'd otherwise get.

This is, however, a really fantastically designed website.

<comment><USER3> "This is, however, a really fantastically designed website."

I disagree. At first glance, I thought this was another zombo.com. I'm guessing it's a text adventure, but the site spends more time bragging about its legacy, not explaining what the game is, as if the legendary status of this game should be obvious to us mere mortals. The design is good from an aesthetic point of view, but not from a "getting your point across" view.

<comment><USER4> Agreed. The web site also completely breaks text search since it's a mix of text and graphics. Just search for "nethack" and you will see your search miss half of the occurrences.

Maybe the author's design sense could be put to good use by improving Nethack's graphics :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great site. But if you're interested in roguelikes I'd suggest starting with Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup instead (<http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/>). Nethack's really showing its age these days and is missing a lot of key features. Crawl is more accessible to newcomers and is less tedious to play. But it is very much a roguelike in the spirit of Nethack.

<comment><USER6> I agree. NetHack has heritage (and nerd-cred) going for it--but in terms of raw playability, DCSS has it beat, hands-down. Crawl might also be the most active modern roguelike in terms of development (a rotating cast of a dozen+ active developers working consistently over several years), whereas, to my knowledge, all the modern NetHack forks are the works of lone developers.

For players new to roguelikes, I'd also have to recommend DoomRL (<http://doom.chaosforge.org/>) as a fantastic game, and its shorter length might appeal to more casual players.

<comment><USER7> I've spent far too much time playing the Android port of Angband on my phone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> After reading the headline, my reaction was "Yeah right. It's not better than NetHack."

 _click_

"Oh"

</comment><comment><USER9> The game and its relative merits vs. age notwithstanding, this is a really cool website. It packed quite a lot of text/information into one page, and more important, it _got me to read every single line_. I was not bored in reading the text wall; I was actually excited about it. The site turned reading into a game -- which is thematically appropriate to its message, not to mention simply fun.

There's a great lesson in product-launch website design here. (Again, putting aside the fact that NetHack isn't exactly "launching" these days). This lesson would seem to dovetail nicely with the "Bury Your Sign-Up Button" article linked the other day.

<comment><USER10> There are many interesting and thoughtful aspects of this design, but I found the fading effects and low-text-contrast parts distracting. Just something to consider if you're taking inspiration from it.

<comment><USER9> I think that's a fair critique. It's not a perfect execution, and there are some distractions in it. I still think, however, that the user experience is novel and interesting, and that it has a great thematic consonance with the subject matter.

If I were launching an e-book, for instance, I might use something like this page as a demo of sorts.

<comment><USER11> It's not just the design -- the writing is quite good, too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> am I weird in finding the fade-in rather distracting? also the layout of the body is visually too complicated?

<comment><USER13> I think I agree about the body layout. It's like all the text is just little to big and jam-packed and busy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> When I saw the headline I really hoped it would be about Dwarf-Fortress or NetHack & not some metaphorical "Greatest Game".

Not only is it all about NetHack, it's one of the loveliest bits of web design I've seen.

Bravo!

</comment><comment><USER15> I don't know about spending countless hours in NetHack, but... wow! great site! Designer: <http://www.ryanbaudoin.com/>

</comment><comment><USER16> Maybe this is revolutionary web design?

</comment><comment><USER10> I'd like to see another site marketing Nethack to young people. I came across it when I was 12 (on some freeware Mac games site), which meant that I ended up spending a huge amount of time practicing using text-based navigation, combining text commands for interesting results, finding and reading documentation, and unknowingly absorbing a bit of the culture of people who muck around with software. (I also learned a lot of new vocabulary, from "comestibles" to "quench" to "wakizashi"!)

Fast-forward to when I was 15 and getting interested in software: I was introduced to using a command line interface for real-life tasks, and it felt slightly familiar instead of totally bizarre - a valuable feeling for beginners.

</comment><comment><USER17> I know Nethack and I've played it a long time ago. I thought now; ok for old time sake, so clicked on Mac. No Lion... So they might want to update that. Port install nethack installs the terminal version, so it does compile :)

<comment><USER18> So i found this thread on Lion + Nethack on Reddit: [http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/g9f5o/future_net...](http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/g9f5o/future_nethack_for_intel_macs/)

Which points to a Cocoa port of Nethack here: <http://code.google.com/p/nethack-cocoa/downloads/list>

I'm going to give that a shot :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've been playing this game since the early 80's when it was called Hack, first on my friend's original IBM PC and then on my XT clone.

After a while, my friend's diskette got an error on it such that reading scrolls of identify would crash the game, so he finished the game without reading a single scroll. I have to admit I was impressed by that.

I still play it these days, but mainly when I'm flying on airplanes. It's perfect because it will last hours on my laptop since it's not power- intensive.

</comment><comment><USER20> For those that want people to watch your game, or to watch other people's games, use <http://nethack.alt.org/>

</comment><comment><USER21> This site is absolutely gorgeous.

<comment><USER22> Yes, more design effort seems to have gone into that site than into the game itself!

(Nethack is very cool, mind you, it's just strange to have such beauty advertising it.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Noooo! The DS link is busted! Seriously, stuff like this is why I got that flash cart...

<comment><USER24> Can't help with the link, but have you seen POWDER? <http://www.zincland.com/powder/index.php?pagename=about>

There's a DS port for it too!

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> For those needing more palatable options, there's the pretty graphical interface to NetHack, Falcon's Eye: <http://users.tkk.fi/jtpelto2/nethack.html>

</comment><comment><USER26> A great way to learn the Vim navigation keys.

<comment><USER27> Didn't work for me. I use nethack's number pad option. But with a Dvorak layout, the standard navigation is just too confusing anyway.

<comment><USER28> I switch to qwerty to play NetHack.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Not bad, but Progress Quest is better.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm not sure I understand this story. Is it basically "check out the design of this website" or am I missing something? I thought, and the site confirms it, that Nethack has been around for quite awhile, so that's certainly not news. Roughly half the comments so far are about how good/bad the game was, and the other half are about this website, so I'm not sure what is supposed to be piquing my intellectual curiosity. I also don't mean to put down the site or the game. I'm just not sure what I'm looking for here.</comment>


Show HN: Octohunt – Find Developers on GitHub - <AUTHOR> https://octohunt.com <comment><USER2> Nice Idea! Simple and handy.</comment>


Ask HN: Is Twitter failing? - <AUTHOR>

While being one of the first users of Twitter (my numeric ID is 11278) and followed it all along the way, today I look at the list of my un/followers and I find many that follow me just for a couple of days in order to get some visibility.
Like Henry's Tavern on 1st Avenue, Seattle, followed me and then unfollowed me. What for? I've never been in Seattle, I basically live on the other side of the globe.
And this happens constantly, people that follow looking for followers and then unfollow without any sort of shared interest or connection.
It feels like I am walking along a crowded boulevard and people try to sell me any kind of stuff along the way, most of it totally unrelated to me.
And the voices of people I was interested in fade away...
What is the Twitter promise and is it succeeding to deliver it? <comment><USER2> >And this happens constantly, people that follow looking for followers and then unfollow without any sort of shared interest or connection.

These are mostly bots and automated tools. It's like that in every social network ever.

>What is the Twitter promise and is it succeeding to deliver it?

To bring you short snippets, news and opinions on topics that interest you, in real time (or as close as it gets).

I believe they deliver on that promise, but the bigger problem here is that they're being compared to facebook, while being nothing alike facebook with a completely different user base. This causes trouble in their user growth.

</comment><comment><USER3> While profoundly true to some extent that Twitter is failing in creating a proper interaction space for advertisers (and this is becoming increasingly annoying for its genuine users) I also suspect Google, Facebook and the others are nourishing the blame on Twitter a) to keep their own advertising value as high as possible b) to acquire TWTR at the lowest price.

</comment><comment><USER4> This isn't a twitter specific thing. It happens on every form of website that has follow and unfollow features(I do it on alot of my instagram accounts). It is the easiest way to gain a follower base for a very low cost.

</comment><comment><USER5> Good question. Sadly, I don't think Twitter knows the answer anymore.</comment>


Wow, I just found a major performance bug in OSX.  - <AUTHOR> http://blog.danielfischer.com/2011/10/20/wow-i-just-found-a-major-performance-bug-in-osx/

<comment><USER2> Where is this "Show item preview" located? I can only find "Show icon preview"

<comment><USER3> I think it is "show icon preview" considering that "use as default" that he also mentions is right below it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> is it recursively indexing a large number of folders to determine the item counts for the info?

</comment><comment><USER5> I haven't seen this either, then again I have a fairly clean desktop and a highly structured folders. Perhaps a scale issue, I didn't notice where the author made any comments with the number of items Finder was rendering.

</comment><comment><USER6> It would be nice if he specified what version of OS X.

<comment><AUTHOR> OS X Lion. I've noticed it in Snow Leopard too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I also notice that TextEdit is A LOT slower now thanks to Versions. The app used to open instantly. Now it takes a few seconds to launch or quit.

</comment><comment><USER8> Note that "Show item info" only shows up if the current folder you're viewing is in icon view.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> OP here. I had a typo in my blog post. It's "show item info" not "show item preview."

</comment><comment><USER9> i don't see this bug...

</comment><comment><USER10> No repro.</comment>


Gadgets and Technology I'm Thankful For - <AUTHOR> http://jeffbail.com/gadgets-and-technology-im-thankful-for

<comment><USER2> If we're measuring this by function:cost then this is easy. I bought a Sony ICF S10MK2 radio last spring for $10. It's used two sets of batteries so far, so make that $15. It's a great example of 1950's technology still being relevant today. There's absolutely nothing fancy about this unit. It just works.

<comment><USER3> That's why the computers on the Apollo mission were so primitive, even compared to processors of that era: old electronic technology is stable technology.

<comment><USER4> It's not necessarily that the older technology is inherently more stable, but that there's a survivor effect. Old technology that wasn't stable fell to newer technology that wasn't stable. Stuff that "just worked" (like the radio mentioned here) didn't see much improvement, because the stability was the issue (not the audio quality, as evidenced by the lack of uptake on HDRadio).

It's an example of the classic software graph -- on the y axis, there's stability, on the x-axis is age. As age increases, so does stability.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My gadgets are nice and all but when it comes to technology what I am really thankful for are the machines that clean the water I drink and deliver the electricity my devices consume; also the advanced computers that allow scientist and doctors to cure diseases. I'm pretty thankful to all the programmers that spend countless hours working on open source projects as well.

</comment><comment><USER6> Ventolin inhaler</comment>


Think You've Seen the Subway? Not Like This You Haven't - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/10/nyregion/nyc-subway-photos.html <comment><USER2> That guy must have a lot more interesting photos. Why show only about a dozen?</comment>


Microsoft throws a party and Hacker News doesn't care - <AUTHOR>

Microsoft's BUILD conference is in SF this year.  Venturebeat and Techcrunch are covering it but HN barely notices.  Are they just irrelevant to most readers? <comment><USER2> For me, it's a matter of confusion. What does BUILD offer that TechEd doesn't? Or that I wouldn't learn in one of the 30+ other conferences that MSFT puts on? Their website is so ambiguous - [http://channel9.msdn.com/events/build/2013?Media=true&wt.mc_...](http://channel9.msdn.com/events/build/2013?Media=true&wt.mc_id=build_hp)

"At Build, we'll share updates and talk about what's next for Windows, Windows Server, Windows Azure, Visual Studio, and more. Build is the path to creating and implementing your great ideas, and then differentiating them in the market. Join us for three days of immersive presentations delivered by the engineers behind our products and services, while networking with thousands of other developers getting the first look at what's next."

If you contrast that with TechEd's main points, I just don't see much difference:

[http://northamerica.msteched.com/#fbid=c1XGcXlXIYy](http://northamerica.msteched.com/#fbid=c1XGcXlXIYy)

"Learn about the future of Microsoft's products, solutions and services directly from the leaders with news, announcements, and demos. Connect with Microsoft and industry thought leaders, and fellow attendees that share your technology interests and business challenges. Plan the features and architecture to support your product and business goals and to prepare your skills for the future. Attend technical sessions delivered by Microsoft engineers and industry experts"

</comment><comment><USER3> I think many of the HN readers just don't use Windows. I personally stopped using it for anything but PC gaming about 3 years ago.

This may be changing with Azure, but it feels like Windows is still the minimum bar needed to gain entry into the Microsoft ecosystem.

</comment><comment><USER4> I have been primarily a Microsoft developer of over 10 years. They have delivered some great stuff...and not so great stuff. I understand the communities trepidation to give any validity to their efforts, but as a result they miss out on some interesting products and features.

</comment><comment><USER5> I agree with the OP. Fantastic new features being introduced by Microsoft, features that iOS and Android dont have, but what does HN talk about? iOS 7 -_-

I'm sorry, but this is just getting a bit annoying. At least TRY not to be biased.

<comment><USER6> Reputation has inertia. Microsoft did a bad job in mobile and desktop for so long that it has a lot of inertia for being dismissed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> To answer your question directly, probably. Or not irrelevant, but just slightly less relevant.

</comment><comment><USER8> If something interesting comes out of it will certainly appear here.</comment>


Ask HN: My Open-Source project is on eBay. What should I do? - <AUTHOR> I just find out that my GPL'ed CNC software, CAMotics is being sold on EBay.  The seller clearly made modifications and I don't see any way to access the modified source.  Isn't this a license violation?  Has anyone else had this happen to them?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-simulator-software-for-CAD-CAm-milling-machine-or-router/113808167909
Real software: https://camotics.org/ <comment><USER2> _Isn 't this a license violation?_

That depends. If people who buy "their" software get the modified source along with it, and it's also under the terms of the GPL, then they are compliant AFAIK. They can also just put up a link to download the source, but IIRC, that's not required if it's shipped with the CD (or whatever kind of media they are distributing).

OTOH, if they are really complying and releasing their patches under the GPL, you could spend the $19.00 to buy one of their distributions, then turn around and put their patches back into your base software if you wanted to.

</comment><comment><USER3> Just because they are selling something on eBay doesn't mean they are violating the GPL.

They are allowed to take your code, modify it, and sell it.

If the CD they are distributing contains their modified code, or a link to where it can be downloaded, then I think they would be in the clear.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right, but they must retain the original copyright notices and provide the source code. I'm asking the person who bought the software to verify if this is the case.

I don't mind so much someone selling my software on a CD. What I do mind is that they changed the name to trick the buyer. Perhaps I should be using a different license.

<comment><USER3> GPL allows you to change the name.

I'm not aware of an open source license that prevents someone from renaming the software to whatever they want.

<comment><AUTHOR> There isn't any open source license that prevents me from not liking it either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wish I could help, peaking around them and some others seems to show that there is a larger a rabbit hole in eBay of open source resellers.

</comment><comment><USER5> Ask the FSF [https://www.fsf.org](https://www.fsf.org)</comment>


This is the successor to the SR-71 Blackbird, and it is gorgeous - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/11/01/this-is-the-successor-to-the-sr-71-blackbird-and-it-is-gorgeous/

<comment><USER2> Hey guess what -- one can't be a fanboy of shiny, sexy toys like the SR-71/72 without also being a fanboy of the Drone War in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen:

(1) [http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/pbs-drone- coverage...](http://fair.org/take-action/action-alerts/pbs-drone-coverage- brought-to-you-by-drone-makers/)

(2) [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/companies-making- dr...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/companies-making- drones_n_2849569.html)

(3) [http://charliedavis.blogspot.com/2013/05/is-lockheed- martin-...](http://charliedavis.blogspot.com/2013/05/is-lockheed-martin- funding-drone-outrage.html)

Not to mention its "gorgeous" effects on the people who committed the moral failure of being born in those countries:

(4) [http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/the_face_of_collateral_damag...](http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/the_face_of_collateral_damage/)

(5) [http://droneswatch.org/2013/01/20/list-of-children-killed- by...](http://droneswatch.org/2013/01/20/list-of-children-killed-by-drone- strikes-in-pakistan-and-yemen/)

And of the serial graft, greed, & pork-o-rama that seems to make up the very DNA of its corporate parent, Lockheed Martin, of and most of its competitors as well:

(6) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals)

(7) [http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2009/06/former-lockheed- mar...](http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2009/06/former-lockheed-martin- engineer-calls-fraud-on-f22-stealth.html)

(8) [http://www.docudharma.com/diary/32340/lockheed-and-the- seque...](http://www.docudharma.com/diary/32340/lockheed-and-the-sequester)

No secrets here -- it's just the way the industry works.</comment>


I won 4 Twitter contests a day (every day for 9 months straight) (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://www.hscott.net/twitter-contest-winning-as-a-service/ <comment><USER2> Previously:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20419756](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20419756)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13456638](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13456638)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10001364](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10001364)

</comment><comment><USER3> I did something similar around 2009. You used to be able to sell RSS feeds on the Kindle, so I created a number of twitter bots that simply aggregated news from a variety of sources on a variety of topics and used Yahoo! Pipes to turn them into RSS feeds. Made about $10 - $12 a month for several years from that until they discontinued the service.</comment>


Ask HN: Monthly Career Advice Thread? (August 2019) - <AUTHOR> I wanted to ask if there would be any interest in a monthly career advice thread.
I often see a lot of neglected Ask HN threads. Many come up without a good response when I do a search. A monthly thread might get more attention, increase quality of responses, and consolidate many of the one-off questions.
What do people think? Are mods okay with this? <comment><USER2> yeah i would be up for this</comment>


I lost years' worth of Google Docs files because of a poor user interface - <AUTHOR> http://googledrivesucks.com <comment><USER3> He was unlucky and didn't think things through too much, especially when dealing with such imporant files, but I agree with him that the way it's implemented is silly. If you provide a program that syncs your documents, with the name of your files, to your local system, people expect these files to be your actual documents, not empty links. Every other online storage system works that way. If you move a file out of your skydrive or Dropbox sync folder you have the actual file, not an empty link.

<comment><USER4> But how could that possibly work for a document that's edited in a browser? What file format would such a document be stored in when there's no local editor available for it?

<comment><USER5> Who knows? I don't know the internals of my Word or Pages documents. Why should anyone care what the internals of a .gdoc file look like? It could be anything. But nobody expects it to be a mere "pointer" link.

<comment><USER6> > I don't know the internals of my Word or Pages documents. [...] But nobody > expects it to be a mere "pointer" link.

While Word and Excel (and plenty of other kinds of non-cloud document) files _usually_ contain data _besides_ links, and _sometimes_ contain no links, they can contain content which is non-obviously (from visual inspection) provided through a link which is broken if the file is moved. And, unlike gdocs, you don't usually get a warning when you drag them out of the folder which tells you _exactly_ what is going to happen if you do that.

<comment><USER7> When you drag something out of your folder on your local machine, how does gdocs give you a warning? (I'm curious, having never tried it.)

<comment><USER8> I'm assuming there is a background process that monitors the folder for changes. On my machine there is about a 3.5 second delay between moving the file and getting the warning. And if you click "OK, move to trash" it only trashes it in gdrive, you still have the file wherever you moved it. It's not a finder dialog box and can get lost behind other windows. It's bizarre UI.

<comment><USER6> > I'm assuming there is a background process that monitors the folder for > changes.

I would assume its the same Google Drive background process that _syncs_ changes made to files in the folder back to Drive, just using special handling for the case of "you moved a file that is a link to content in a Google web service and rather than a normal file".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I sympathize with the author (it must have hurt pretty bad if it made him go create an entire website dedicated to "google drive sucks") I thought it was quite obvious that files created on Google Drive with their document editor were not actually copied to your computer with the Google Drive program. It's easy to see when you try to open the file with Notepad or a similar local text editor. Additionally you get a warning when you move a file out of the Drive folder which you should always heed.

Not only that, but if it were the actual file on your local drive and not a link, there wouldn't be an option to "make this file available offline". There were cues which the author missed, but they were obviously not prominent enough which is a (the) design flaw.

Let this be a lesson that you should have multiple backups for anything important. I personally have 2 online backup systems and 3 local ones, the worth of which practice I learned the hard way like this author.

Also think twice before you empty the trash - you're _manually_ making these files _unrecoverable_ from the internet, and if your machine went up in smoke after you hit the button, you'd be screwed. That alone warrants serious consideration.

<comment><USER10> Glad you thought it was obvious. I just learned it after reading the OP's article. Not obvious enough, apparently.

<comment><USER9> Yeah, like I mentioned, "There were cues which the author missed, but they were obviously not prominent enough which is a (the) design flaw." I focused more on the lessons to be learned but the situation is absolutely very sad for anyone who goes through something like this.

Glad you read the article though, now you're not going to fall for this flaw in the future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If I take _real_ files (.doc, .cc, .py) in a folder on my computer and move them into my google drive folder on my computer, Google Drive syncs those files to the web. Now my _real_ files exist, sync'd, in two places. My local disk and Google's disk.

If I take Google Doc files I have created in the browser and drag them from my google drive folder on my computer, into another folder, I get a file named the same as the document I had created that basically contains a URL. My gdoc files still only exist in the cloud. What I have in my hand is bupkis. So what are gdoc files? They certainly aren't _real_ files and few people understand that they are worthless outside of the Google Drive folder.

No one expects this is how document dragging to or from folders works.

When dragging gdoc files out of a folder, there needs to be someway for Google Drive to give you the actual file from the cloud.

</comment><comment><USER12> I feel really, really sorry for OP. However, since Google closed my adsense account without any serious reason, I learned not to trust them, so I keep backups of every service I have with them.

I'd recommend anyone who uses Google Docs to download a zip file of their Drive weekly, and if possible, use some of the backup tools like [Insync].

Overall, I agree that the Google Drive interface is not totally clear about what the disk files represent.

[Insync]: [https://www.insynchq.com/](https://www.insynchq.com/)

<comment><USER13> Would you say Insync is worth the $10 if I only have one Drive account that I want to back up? They do offer backups, right? Their site seems to advertise multiple account sync as its biggest feature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Huh? If you remove the files from the copy of Google drive on your disk, they get removed on the web. It's one "drive." That's KIND OF THE WHOLE POINT. It's not poor user design.

That they go to the trash is good user design, to prevent users from doings things like this guy did...

<comment><USER15> Yeah, I don't get this part. The user moved the files from google drive to his local disk. Aren't the files therefore still on his local disk?

EDIT: re read article . Moving files into local disk deletes them on google drive and makes the moved versions useless links. Now agree with the author: that's goddamned terrible.

EDIT 2: actually the files are always links, but if the links are moved outside google drive the correspondi go data is moved into Google drive trash. See jamesaguilar below. Still goddamned terrible.

<comment><USER16> No, the files in your drive "look like" they are files, but they are actually just links. So him moving them to the local disk did not actually copy the files to local disk.

The real failure here is that you shouldn't be able to move the drive links out of the drive folder, since semantically that does not actually move the files.

(Filed a bug, but I'm not on the Drive team so I can't really take responsibility for this getting fixed. It does seem like a problem to me, but I don't know their infrastructure nor the limitations of shell extensions, so I can't really comment on whether a fix is feasible either.)

<comment><USER17> > The real failure here is that you shouldn't be able to move the drive links > out of the drive folder, since semantically that does not actually move the > files.

Or stop trying to force a connection between Google Drive's file view and Google Docs.

Move the _links_ out of GDrive all you want, it should have _no_ effect whatsoever on the hosted GDocs. They're just links, after all. Since when does moving or deleting a link delete actual data?

Someone at Google tried to force a connection that doesn't even make sense, and this is the result. Whoever decided that moving a _link_ out of a folder should delete the hosted document should be fired.

<comment><USER18> Well said...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If he has the local copies of his documents from the local Google Drive sync, wouldn't he at least have that backup, or are the local files not really files at all but just pointers to the cloud storage files?

If it's the latter, does that mean that's it's literally impossible to make backups of your Google Docs documents? If I were to use a another backup program to backup my Google Drive folder, it wouldn't be possible to restore those files if the Google Drive files got deleted?

<comment><USER20> It looks like indeed it's the latter -- the .gdoc files are just pointers, and moving them out of the google drive is akin to copying the pointer/shortcut...

But, more than that, moving the .gdoc file pointer out of Google drive moves the actual cloud file to the trash? That was my best guess after re-reading the OP, and that does seem like a UX issue. From a UX point of view, moving a shortcut to a file should not move that file to the trash somewhere else.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> If files weren't completely deleted when the trash was emptied, then people would be kvetching about the horrible security implications and the only way to be sure was to keep files on the local disk so that when you emptied the trash, the files would be _really_ gone....

<comment><USER22> This is surely true. It's also true that real world data loss is worse than nonsense internet flaming.

I think the arguments can be dumb too, but the guy actually lost files here. And it's the kind of mistake I could see myself making pretty easily. In other contexts you protect against this with non-local backups (ironically, that's probably 90% of my usage of Drive), but there's no equivalent in the cloud world. It's a real issue that needs to be addressed, I think.

<comment><USER23> Yeah, there are many back-up equivalents [https://www.cloudhq.net](https://www.cloudhq.net) [https://mybackupbox.com/](https://mybackupbox.com/) [https://mover.io/product/backups](https://mover.io/product/backups)

And And those who lost their file will blame the UI. I understand the frustration and how terrible the poster feels but this anecdotal argument is irrelevant to the actual safety or UI quality of Google Drive.

There will always be users who lose their data due to glitches, technical illiteracy, bad design etc. There are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of million Google Drive users.

The lesson that can be learned here is this: Your personal data management system should never have a single point of failure.

Disclaimer: I was a Googler sometime ago but wasn't anywhere near the Drive team.

<comment><USER22> Again though: the real issue I see here (not the giant UI rant or the Google is Evil nonsense) is that cloud-managed content like Google Docs _cannot be backed up_ meaningfully. I think that's a real problem, and until it's fixed other people are going to be tripping over the same issues.

<comment><USER23> Yeah, I agree thats its not really intuitive but you _can_ back up cloud managed content by converting it in various formats for export. [https://www.google.com/settings/takeout/](https://www.google.com/settings/takeout/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> As bad as I feel for the OP, you have to take responsibility instead of blaming Google. Seems like they do a good job of explaining when you empty the trash in Drive:

"Files in your trash are about to be permanently deleted, including Google Docs in your Trash. Warning: When using Google Drive for PC/Mac, Google Docs aren't actual files saved on your hard drive; they are links to files stored online."

If you want a real backup of Google Docs, try Takeout: [https://www.google.com/settings/takeout](https://www.google.com/settings/takeout)

<comment><USER25> It's just very unintuitive and it deviates from the popular and most accepted paradigm. I would think Google drive syncs your actual files, and that it would just choose Google Docs as its default editor.

<comment><USER6> Google Drive syncs actual files.

Google _Docs_ , however, does not provide "actual files" with substantive content for its native documents, you have to export them to other formats to have "actual files".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The "poor user interface" gave me a dialog window with a warning and two buttons:

An item you recently removed from your Google Drive folder has been moved to your trash on drive.google.com.

This item is just a link. If you empty your trash on drive.google.com, this item will be permanently deleted.

"Ok, move to trash" "Undo"

<comment><USER27> None of which really spells out that the "file" you moved out of Google Drive doesn't actually contain anything useful. That's what "This item is just a link." is supposed to tell us, but that's just terrible wording. What exactly is "This item"? I work with files, not items. What is "just a link"? The only "link" I'm familiar with for files are symbolic links and hard links, and that doesn't apply here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Google definitely jumped into Drive and Apps without putting any thought about privacy or recoverability into it whatsoever. There's a reason why they keep launching in beta - because they get an MVP out the door and then people start using it as if it's ready for production.

Further, everyone I know that uses Google Apps / Drive has no idea how to use it properly. One common thing I see is people will send a link to a particular document not knowing they've unwittingly given the person access to all of their documents. One person sent a link out to a spreadsheet that had a beach house signup in it. A couple of clicks in the unfamiliar user interface and I find myself looking at the filenames of all his docs - one of which was potentially very embarrassing. For his sake, I didn't mention it but only sent him an article later on about how to secure your Google Drive files.

<comment><USER29> > One common thing I see is people will send a link to a particular document > not knowing they've unwittingly given the person access to all of their > documents

What? Share links for documents are just a link to that document no to the folders where they are

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Everyone hates making backups. Everyone loves them when something happens.

There are many free online data storage systems. If you're happy with the privacy implications, it's not hard to run Google Drive, Dropbox and box.net on the same directory for some degree of resilience.

<comment><USER8> You can't make backups of gdoc files, the content is never stored locally, it's only on googles servers.

<comment><USER26> [https://code.google.com/p/gdocbackup/](https://code.google.com/p/gdocbackup/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> There's a marketing opportunity here for Dropbox. "Dropbox, we sync all your files, not just the links to them."

<comment><USER6> Drive syncs all your files, too.

The various Google Docs, etc., web apps only put links to the real content in Drive, however.

Any file that you created with a method that would let you store it in Dropbox will be synced the same way in Drive as it would be in Dropbox, the only difference is web apps that are tied to the Drive UI that don't store their substantive content in Drive in the first place, which obviously Dropbox won't help with. (Conceptually, you could have web apps that do the same thing in Dropbox, though I don't know if the Dropbox API and Web UI have features that would make it attractive to do.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Honestly dude, I always check my recycle bin before emptying it for this exact reason: I never know what I accidentally put in there, and I will almost never do a full delete, I'll go in there and remove things in groups.

</comment><comment><USER32> Yes, if you have no backups, and never restore from your backups, and just rely on a free service keeping all your things for you for all time, things might go awry.

</comment><comment><USER33> I don't know of any backup service that doesn't work this way unless you explicitly tell it otherwise (e.g. a "Never Delete" option).

<comment><USER27> No backup service in the history of the universe gives you non-working local "files" that are just links back to the cloud when you attempt to copy a file to your computer.

The problem is not that Drive deleted his stuff on Google. The problem is that Drive deleted his stuff on Google _after taking an action that should have left him with local copies of the data, but didn 't_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I get it, it sucks that this happened. But does that make Google Drive "suck"? The author himself states he has used it since the service started - that's what, 6 years? I agree that what happened was unfortunate, but it's a bit immature to go around badmouthing the entire product because of this. It's not like this happens everyday for every single user.

<comment><USER35> Google Drive started in April 2012. It's been a year and a half, approximately, not 6 years.

<comment><USER34> He mentions using Google Docs from the start, which eventually became Drive.

<comment><USER27> The problem he encountered is part of Drive, not Docs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> They try to warn you, but the warning message doesn't make any sense, unless you already know what it's trying to say.

       "An item you recently removed from your Google Drive folder has been moved
       to your trash on drive.google.com.

       This item is just a link. If you empty your trash on
       drive.google.com, this item will be permanently deleted."

See how the meaning of the phrase "this item" actually changes from one sentence to the next?

You can't actually write a decent warning message, because if you did, it would sound so ridiculous, you would never actually be able to live with it.

       We noticed some files have been removed from your Google
       Drive folder.

       We can't tell the difference between you moving files
       from your Google Drive folder to another folder on your
       hard drive, and you simply deleting files from your
       Google Drive folder.

       We're going to guess that you performed a delete, and so
       we've also moved the actual document, which is stored in
       the cloud, to your Trash folder on drive.google.com.

       If you actually moved files out of your Google Drive
       folder to another folder on your hard drive, you might
       think that file you have on your computer is a copy of
       the source material. Alas, it is not.

       Please understand that file you may have on your
       computer right now is just a link to the item in the
       cloud, which is currently sitting in the Trash. You
       DO NOT actually have a copy of item itself on your hard
       drive.

       If you empty your trash in the cloud, you will be
       permanently deleting the only copy in existence of this
       item.

LOL...

Make it as as simple as possible, _but no simpler_.

Conflating hyperlinks with the actual content to the point where deleting the hyperlink causes the content to move to the trash is nonsensical.

</comment><comment><USER37> Nope. [http://i.imgur.com/ijTQTTq.png](http://i.imgur.com/ijTQTTq.png)

<comment><USER38> Users can't read.

[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000062....](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000062.html)

<comment><USER37> Yes, sure, but that's not a reason for me to not use Google Drive. In fact, the "Empty Trash" in Google Drive has a similar prompt [0]; how many clues does this guy need? I have not seen a filesystem do better, so we're all ears on this magical UX that doesn't involve alerts for destructive actions. Evil Google!

[0] Empty Trash? Files in your trash are about to be permanently deleted, including Google Docs in your Trash. Warning: When using Google Drive for PC/Mac, Google Docs aren't actual files saved on your hard drive; they are links to files stored online. Learn more You can't undo this action

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> There is an export feature, which allows you to export "all" your data you have stored on Google's server incl. Google Docs (which will be exported to Word, Excel, PowerPoint formats, respectively). In your account settings there you can find "Download your data".

Doing regular backups even of your data in the cloud is in my opinion a crucial action, since everyone trusts fully into the cloud provider to provide his data always, anywhere and forever, which is - as you experienced - <USER2> dangerous and naive assumption.

</comment><comment><USER4> Man, I don't know. I feel for this guy, but not every computing tragedy is the software's fault. The author never says what he expected would happen when he moved stuff out of the Google drive.

I learned along the way never to make assumptions about how file syncing works. There's no right answer to what to do in all situations, so your expectations aren't always going to match what the programmer/product owner decided to do.

<comment><USER27> Virtually everyone would expect that, when moving stuff out of Google Drive, the stuff you moved would actually contain stuff.

There's literally no precedent for any other way. You move a file, and the file you moved still contains the same thing. That's how it works everywhere, including with all other file syncing services.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Remote volumes are not new. They don't replace backups.

As the author said: "I didn't think anything of it". Nothing to add :)

</comment><comment><USER41> Wow, I'm amazed by the number of comments written by people who apparently use Google Drive without having researched backup solutions. Interesting. Here are my notes on the subject:

[https://github.com/josh2/google_drive_backups](https://github.com/josh2/google_drive_backups)

</comment><comment><USER42> Well, he deleted years' worth of Google Docs files because of a poor user interface, but he _lost_ the Google Docs files because of an irresponsible backup policy.

Sad, to be sure, but there's no kind of critical document storage that doesn't need a backup.

<comment><USER5> But there is no way to backup Google Docs files, is there?

What exactly was the "responsible" backup policy supposed to have been?

<comment><USER26> Something like [https://code.google.com/p/gdocbackup/](https://code.google.com/p/gdocbackup/) combined with another backup (on physical media or in the cloud).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Why didn't the user backup all their Docs using Google Docs built in "Convert and Download All" tool? [http://i.imgur.com/AnOAIw9.png](http://i.imgur.com/AnOAIw9.png)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I wrote a followup Medium post on the implications of Google's interface design: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6608719](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6608719)

</comment><comment><USER44> We've become so heavily dependent on Google, it is kind of sad that the author's email (listed at the end) is a gmail.com address.

<comment><USER45> Came here to say the same thing. It takes the piss out of his argument.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Google Drive does that Dropbox does that Skydrive does that

All of them have poor user interfaces?

<comment><USER46> I have a Skydrive synced folder on my computer. Files I put in there are copied to Skydrive. If I remove a file from that folder, it is still a physical file on my computer. Google drive local "files" do not contain your data. I don't know about Dropbox.

<comment><USER6> > Google drive local "files" do not contain your data.

Google Drive local files do, in fact, contain your data, for any files that you put into Drive.

The issue is that the native files for certain web services that use the Drive interface (including Google's own Documents, Spreadsheets, etc.) are just links to content stored with the web service, not containers for the content itself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> He should have kept a backup. Possibly some sort of cloud backup system.

</comment><comment><USER48> which is why I have a hazel rule that copies any document that is added to my linked cloud drive folder to a NAS

</comment><comment><USER49> File a FOIA request and get your data back from the NSA.

Is this a thing?

<comment><USER50> Yes, but it's really not a great idea. It takes away resources that could be used to answer FOIA requests that might actually result in responsive documents.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> if the files were ever synced to your computer, you might be able to recover them using software that can undelete files. Personally, I'd just use dropbox ... it's dead simple.

<comment><USER8> Google drive doesn't actually sync files, just links.

<comment><USER6> Drive actually syncs files.

The Google Docs (and Spreadsheets/Forms/etc.) native files are, however, links to online resources that are manipulated via an API, not document files in the usual sense.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> So, let me get this straight. You moved everything to Google Drive, not keeping a local copy. Then you emptied the trash. And you didn't have a backup of your documents, but instead decided to leave everything in the cloud. Then, when something goes wrong, you blame Google. Am I understanding correctly?

<comment><USER8> Nope, not understanding it at all. He moved files out of his google drive, but the files aren't files, just links to the cloud. So even though he still has the files, they have no data in them.

<comment><USER52> But, still no backup? Files only exist in Google Drive, and no where else?</comment></comment></comment>


How to remote work in Covid-19 times (with open source) - <AUTHOR> https://ungleich.ch/u/blog/remote-working-with-opensource-sustainability/ <comment><USER2> If you really want to be sustainable you need to avoid the internet altogether.

<comment><AUTHOR> I doubt that this is true. Given the amount of advantages you have from learning in the Internet and avoiding mistakes locally.

<comment><USER2> [https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html](https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html)</comment></comment></comment>


Tell HN: Rails screencasts.  - <AUTHOR>

I've been thinking of creating a series of rails screen casts focused on teaching you how to build an application. I really love RailsCasts, but my focus would be to basically be teaching you by creating an application in every season. To give you a glimpse it'd be something like sitting next to a programmer building a rails application.
Basically, season one would be something like building a really powerful blog application, season two, a SaaS app with rails, etc...
Interested? Upvote or comment. I'm trying to figure out how many people would be interested...
Thanks! <comment><USER2> I hate screencasts. They force you to sit around watching, don't let you cut and paste or easily skim the content, and of course _aren't_ like sitting next to someone in that you can't stop the guy talking and ask him a question.

On the other hand, I'd love to see some good Rails articles.

<comment><USER3> Most commercial screencasts ship with the source code. It's subjective, though, because many people are visual learners.

For example, I had dabbled into jQuery through the docs and tutorials. However, it wasn't until I got a copy of Peepcode's jQuery screencast that I really got hold of it.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's interesting. Some people find it hard to learn by watching a screen cast. How much value do you see in these rails screencasts ?

<comment><USER4> I don't think videos are the best way to learn specifics, but in terms of seeing an overview or "connecting the dots" they work well. Ultimately, the real learning comes from the doing and by looking up stuff from various sources. To get the broad view and idea behind a topic, though, a well produced video can't be beaten.

Given that, I doubt these screencasts would be that interesting if they went into every little detail - but if they gave the viewer enough confidence and interest to know what to look up elsewhere, it could work out well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The hard part about screencasts and interviews is keeping the viewers attention span. We've seen on Mixergy how the viewer count drops over time -- from Andrew's graphs he makes public. I'd be interested in checking out some Rails screencasts, but only if they're well edited.

How much of what you build is going to branch back out into front-end code? HTML/CSS/JS

Do you plan on making the code readily available to follow along? If so, how are you planning on doing this? Might be an idea to try using a dvcs. Assuming you plan it well enough, you could potentially have a bash script which will checkout your code at each video point for the user.

<comment><USER6> > only if they're well edited

I second that - an edited and concise screencast is worth much more than an non-edited one. PeepCode are a very good example about how to do this right!

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd limit every episode by 5 minutes. www.screenr.com is awesome software. I haven't found anything that fits my needs apart from it(I'm on Ubuntu)

<comment><USER6> +1 for limit to 5 minutes (or concise anyway :-).

About ubuntu - maybe this could be helpful: ?

<http://remi.org/2009/04/16/how-i-record-my-screencasts>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for responding with a useful link. Unfortunately, recordMyScreen is a bit ... "slow" in terms of video quality.

I think I'll stick with screenr, it limits me to 5 minutes per video anyway!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I really like peepcode:

peepcode.com

I'm learning rails at the moment and I find it quite useful - especially from the very start of my immersion into the world of rails. You may get 'inspiration' from these guys ;-)

<comment><USER8> +1 for peepcode.

Just watch objective-c/iphone series once and you'll be writing iphone apps right away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> <http://www.railstutorial.org/>

This is a book teaches you how to build a Twitter like applications. According to the site it will eventually be accompanied by screencasts.

I do like screencast though. I say go for it but teach folks how to build a different application than the one in Rails Tutorial.

</comment><comment><USER10> I know I'm not alone when I say that Ryan Bates' railscasts.com has saved me countless hours of frustration, and expanded my vision of what Rails is capable of doing. Few presenters can match Ryan's clear, pleasant style. In terms of free offerings, there isn't likely to be anything more comprehensive and professional.

</comment><comment><USER11> I'd think you would have to look at it like writing a book, except with the chapters being in video instead of text. I think trying to approach it as a series of RailsCasts would not cater to the type of people who want such a structured learning system. One of RailsCasts best benefits is that you learn on your own terms, which is the opposite of what you are going for it sounds like.

There are many different learning styles and some people like to see rather than read so I think it has potential. You may check out LearnVisualStudio.net as they have been selling videos for years, including videos that go from nothing to building a full featured application.

Good luck in your venture - the more ways people can learn rails, the more it will attract new developers and grow the ecosystem.

<comment><AUTHOR> I love the idea of turning this into a book, yet the problem with a book is that due to how fast rails moves, the actual content would eventually become outdated.

<comment><USER11> Agreed - most books become outdated by the time they reach the bookshelves.

I'm saying more of a book approach than a screencast approach. Most books start at the ground up, with each chapter building on the previous, while many screencasts tend to be independent of previous episodes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I usually don't care for screencasts about technology because they often treat the viewer like a dumbass. For example, they'll spend 30 seconds introducing themselves or explaining what they're going to do even if it's super trivial. I would suggest trying to be as concise, but still be as digestible as possible. If your screencast is actually useful and 5 minutes long, I might watch it again. If it's 10 minutes and just okay, no way am I going back to it.

Hope this helps. I'm also interested. I am learning ruby now and soon I want to start learning rails.

</comment><comment><USER6> I think it's a very good idea, both based on my own opinion and on feedback I got on <http://www.learnivore.com> which I run.

Would you focus on Rails 3 directly ?

One remark: I would take care of sound quality and would not use the integrated microphone, but an external (even cheap, like head-set) one.

Feel free to contact me by mail (see profile) if you want to chat about your idea!

<comment><USER4> _One remark: I would take care of sound quality and would not use the integrated microphone, but an external (even cheap, like head-set) one._

Right on. Crappy sound has made me turn off many a screencast (mostly informal ones, sure). The worst is when you can hear both the keyboard _and_ a MacBook Pro fan whirring up because it can only just about deal with recording the screencast ;-)

A USB microphone like a Blue Snowball or one of the Samson things only costs $100 or so. Though even with a headset, if you know what you're doing you can run some EQ to make it sound bearable (Garageband is even good for this if you have nothing better).

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I say, start with the SaaS app. The blog thing has been done to death. Also, can you do a non screencast blog post of it as you go?

<comment><USER4> For anyone who wants a non screencast Rails tutorial, BTW, this one came out recently: <http://www.railstutorial.org/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I highly suggest you also talk about the WHY a great deal. I buy quite a few screencasts and knowing your audience is a hugely important thing.

Some of us don't have the programming background to leverage and the why of where you are putting code, why it is better than shoving everything into the view etc is important. 5 minutes would be too short I think for most useful learning exercises. I agree peeepcode does this quite well.

An example screencast that I would purchase would be using authlogic and then adding and extending functionality to fit your needs. Adding lost password functions, user levels, etc. That would give a nice complete view of a very commonly used item and useful across any project you are going to create on your own.

</comment><comment><USER15> I would definitely be interested in watching this, and I think the amount of feedback in this thread shows that others would be too. If you look at the Feedback section of railscasts.com you'll see that the second most popular request is for Ryan Bates to "Build an entire application over a series of screencasts" and it has almost 1500 votes.

Others have already pointed this out, but it's important to keep the screencasts short and try to split each project up into smaller videos by topic. I like screencasts, but there's nothing worse than sitting through an hour long video for 10 minutes of content. It's a waste of time, and it makes it difficult to find the valuable content again later without re-watching the whole video.

</comment><comment><USER3> I like it. A good marketing strategy, btw, would be to release the first one for free (the blog one), because there are many blog-in-rails tutorials and screencasts. This way people would see the alleged quality of your screencasts and be incited to buy the others.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes. Teaching others can definitely be a good marketing strategy. I think that Obie Fernandez made HashRocket really popular through his book, "The Rails Way"

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I like the idea. I would love to see a somewhat complex app written using Rails. How long do you think each screencast would be?

I agree with some of the other commentators that many like reading vs. watching a screencast (and it does not help that you can't copy-paste code), so perhaps you might consider putting the code out there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. Every episode would be limited to 5 minutes.

The code would be publicly available via github.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> If you're looking for more examples for comparison, tekpub.com has really good screencasts, including a series for Rails.

</comment><comment><USER18> If you have to count on others this much to get enough motivation to get started you'll most likely get nowhere. I'd advise to be more self-reliant. This goes for all projects of appreciable complexity.

</comment><comment><USER19> If you've got an itch, scratch it. If you're thinking about it, and you keep thinking about it, and it won't let you go, then do it.

</comment><comment><USER20> I think this is a great idea. It sounds like I would get a lot out of something like this.

</comment><comment><USER21> There's a really good learning ruby on rails DVD from lynda.com

</comment><comment><USER22> sounds great

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Do you have any suggestions, I'd really appreciate hearing your opinion on this.

<comment><USER22> Any material that gives a holistic view (that will be an aid to n00bs like me) or exploring the limitations of rails while building real world applications would be interesting. Where is it hard to work idiomatically within the framework of rails and what are the workarounds... just some thoughts</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: When does a startup stop being a startup? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> I love Steve Blank's definition of a startup: A startup is an organization formed to search for a repeatable and scalable business model.

With that definition, we can assert that a startup is no longer a startup once they've found that repeatable and scalable business model.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think that there a countless answers. I wrote about this exact topic some months back.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/when-is-a-startup-no- longer-a...](http://www.businessinsider.com/when-is-a-startup-no-longer-a- startup-2011-2)

</comment><comment><USER4> When the supply cabinet is locked

</comment><comment><USER5> When the founder does not know everybody in the company by name.

</comment><comment><USER6> When there is an "official" company email signature.

</comment><comment><USER7> When a revenue stream has been found.

</comment><comment><USER8> Whey they run out of money.</comment>


Fred Wilson: The slide in south park where, apparently, twitter was concieved of - <AUTHOR> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fredwilson/3330356947/ <comment><USER2> anyone ever been to cafe del centro? It's pretty good. =)</comment>


Donate to charity, get free Obsidian Portal Ascendant time - <AUTHOR> http://blog.obsidianportal.com/?p=1390 <comment><USER2> I don't know what "ascendant time" is, but I'm guessing it's some virtual good whose scarcity is purely artificial, so that the makers of Obsidian Portal don't incur additional costs when it is used.

If I'm right, then these guys are very cleverly making the world a better place.

<comment><AUTHOR> Premium subscription time, essentially.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Dunno how many Obsidian Portal fans we have here, but we're running a charity promotion today if anyone is interested.

<comment><USER3> Fan of the idea and a lot of the features, as a RPGer. Would love to see the source at some point.

I think you guys should focus on more local social (Pick up where Meetup failed for gamers), but great job.</comment></comment>


22 Ways to Reduce Churn with Growth Hacking - <AUTHOR> http://sixteenventures.com/growth-hacking-retention

<comment><USER2> Thanks. Lets not forget to test pricing as well:

[http://bloggerkhan.com/relativity-of-price-as-explained- in-p...](http://bloggerkhan.com/relativity-of-price-as-explained-in- predictably-irrational-by-dan-ariely/417)</comment>


Ask PG: YC Founders over 30 yrs old - <AUTHOR> I'm curious to know how many YC companies with founders over 30 yrs old have been funded.<p>We hear so much about founders right out of college. I also wonder how much of a factor is age in selecting companies. <comment><USER2> There are quite a lot of founders over 30. I don't know exactly how many because we don't keep track of ages. The sharp falloff is around 35, but we've had a handful of founders over 40. None over 50 though.

I think our age distribution is probably close to the age distribution for startups generally. We've funded more founders who are 27 than 20 or 35 because more people start startups at 27 than at 20 or 35.

<comment><USER3> I seem to recall at the YC meetup in Cambridge last summer (<http://anyvite.com/events/home/tmokjxuwai/>) that there was a question asking why the application asked for age.

I recall that you said "... age is a high bit in characterizing someone."

And Jessica yelled from the cheap seats that "... we need it to know that you can sign stuff legally."

I remember it vividly because it confirmed my decision not to apply to YC.

<comment><USER2> It sounds like you were reading a lot into what we said. Jessica's remark was obviously a joke. And all I meant was that when you're trying to judge someone's achievements, you need to know how long they've had to achieve them. Would you hold a 20 year old to the same standard as a 30 year old?

<comment><USER4> I'd think there would be more of a drop off with opportunities like Y Combinator than there would be with other Angel investors. I'm surprised there are any at all.

I guess it's still an excellent opportunity to meet people so I mean no offense to those over 30 who did sign up but I'm a 25 year old and I wouldn't pick up and move for $5,000 bucks. I always thought part of the lure of Y Combinator was that young folks had nothing to tie them down. I can't think of a 30 year old I know who has no obligations.

<comment><USER5> "I mean no offense to those over 30 who did sign up but I'm a 25 year old and I wouldn't pick up and move for $5,000 bucks"

No offense taken (I was 32 when we accepted YC funding). But it wasn't for $5000. Nobody, at any age, (except for rdouble) is applying to YC for $5000. The reason to move is because you probably should be in the valley, if you're starting a technology startup that is going to need to raise money or build partnerships with existing tech companies.

Anyway, the money was not at all a motivating factor for us in applying for YC. If we could hire pg, tlb, rtm, and Jessica to work for us for some amount of money, I would happily give them money. But that's not the way they wanted to play it, so we took some money from them instead. You're entirely missing the point of YC, if you think the money is the primary motivation for anyone working with YC.

Edit: Parenthetical added to cover outlier.

<comment><USER6> _Nobody, at any age, is applying to YC for $5000._

Actually, money was a large part of the reason I applied to YC. I had a huge medical bill while uninsured last year and it wiped out a large chunk of my cash.

<comment><USER5> Fixed.

<comment><USER6> Heh. Cool. By the way, if you need an iPhone app for Virtualmin, my contact info is in my profile. We got an interview but we didn't get the $5000. :)

<comment><USER5> You know the email address field doesn't appear in your profile, right? And your websites don't provide contact info.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _A common belief is that U.S.-born tech founders of technology companies tend to be young. We found that about 1 percent were teenagers when they started their firms. More than twice as many were older than age fifty than were younger than twenty-five. Many, in fact, were in their sixties when they founded their startups. The vast majority of U.S.-born tech founders were older than twenty-five. The average and median age of key tech founders was thirty-nine._

Source: <http://sites.kauffman.org/pdf/Education_Tech_Ent_061108.pdf>

<comment><USER8> This is very relevant research. I actually agree with the findings based on the people I know who have started technology companies.

I don't think it applies to the kind of people that YC is targeting - young, mobile, no dependents, able to live on very little $'s a year or the technology segment which is consumer web startups.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> The demographics here are kind of straightforward.

If you're over 30, you're more likely to have a family.

If you have a family and you can handle starting a company from zero, you're less likely to need YC. If you can't handle starting from zero, YC doesn't help you anyways.

</comment><comment><USER10> This article has some good insight into people who succeed later in life (late bloomers): <http://www.gladwell.com/2008/2008_10_20_a_latebloomers.html>

It does happen, and it's not as rare as most people think. The article also makes a pretty strong argument that late bloomers tend to approach things differently than those who get an early start.

<comment><USER11> Thanks -- I really enjoyed that article. I could relate to the line "I felt like I'd stepped off a cliff and I didn't know if the parachute was going to open. Nobody wants to waste their life..." The discussion about the importance of a support network for "experimental innovators" is spot-on, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> It isn't surprising most founders are in their twenties given demographics which are probably close to this on HN: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=517039>

It looks like those in their thirties are well-represented. I don't see why age would make a difference anyway. If you blow them away, my guess is you're in. Just spend a few hours on your application, get a few people who you think are smarter than you to review your application with you for a few hours, submit it, then go back to focusing on your startup.

</comment><comment><USER13> I work for a startup where everyone in the company is over 30

</comment><comment><USER14> This thread (and the link to the Gladwell essay that someone submitted to it earlier) are interesting. I'm 39 years old, and want to start my own company and change my career from journalist to news technologist/entrepreneur. Some readers might chuckle at that, but I am very serious.

In my mind, the question of the age of YC founders has much to do with the threshold for risk. Age definitely plays a part. But age does not crush vision, and brings some benefits in terms of experience and understanding of target markets. In my own case, I have an idea for a mobile news platform that I believe will change the way in which a lot of people get information. I think it would be a product that people want, but the only way to find out is to build it and see what the market thinks.

But I recognize that there are a lot of barriers to achieving my vision.

First, I'm not a hacker, and I don't have a co-founder (yet) who is. I think in pg's view, this would preclude me from starting this type of company (based on some of his commentary in Founders At Work and in <http://paulgraham.com/startupmistakes.html>). Nevertheless, I have a lot of experience with the technologies that would drive the platform, and insights into the way people consume information, and I think this will be extremely valuable in driving product development.

Second, I have a family and a mortgage. Others have noted family-related issues, but the situation really depends on the specifics of your family. My wife is not working, as my youngest is in preschool only for three mornings a week. This makes it impossible for me to take the risk right now to drop my day job and the health insurance that comes with it (I live in the U.S., in the Boston area) and work full time on my product. If my wife was working in a professional position, not only would we have the salary and insurance to fall back on if I stopped working at my day job, but also we could afford day care.

So, what I am doing right now is plugging away at the business plan and some of the technical concepts in my spare time, usually for two hours per day after the kids go to sleep. I'm trying to bone up on my understanding of the platforms that I think I will need to grok in order to get this thing off the ground. I've stopped putting money in my 401k to build up some funds, and I'm considering how I might tap other sources of funding -- not to mention considering various revenue streams from the product itself.

Would I ever apply to Y Combinator? I couldn't do it on my own, but I might, if I had the right team and could consider taking off for a few months (I wish YC still had the summer program in Cambridge!). The family-related concerns are real, but there are ways to address them (for instance, COBRA for health insurance and enough funding to cover my mortgage and living expenses).

Edited: Changed first sentence to add Gladwell ref

<comment><USER15> Thanks for that newsio. As a 24-year-old I can't relate to a lot of the challenges you're facing, but I draw a healthy amount of inspiration from your passion and drive. I wish you the best of luck.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Regardless of whether you go the YC path or not - you should know that there are many, many examples of extremely successful companies being founded by people in their 30's and later. Cisco, Qualcomm, Amazon.com, Bose Corporation, LinkedIn. etc.etc.etc.

</comment><comment><USER17> Normaly there are a lot of rule about age discrimination, but I don't think they exist in terms of investment $. I wonder if there are any such pitfalls when building an incubator?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm a little surprised that there are a lot of 30+ founders.

The thing is we mostly read about young people getting into YC.

I have also been to a number of gatherings with the YC founders and most of them are young.

</comment><comment><USER18> rescuetime is one example right off hand, also not sure how old Matt Moroon at draftMix is but def does not strike me as fresh out of college. sure there is a few more as well.

<comment><USER19> Someone posted a correction and I guess they've deleted it; but Matt's last name is "Maroon", not "Moroon".

<comment><USER20> And he's under 30 still. Was 26 when he went out to YC. Spread the word.

<comment><USER18> matt, sorry for the misspell, annoying im sure. a young guy indeed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> If you look at many tech startups, you will notice that the age of the founders is closely related to the nature of their business. For instance, YC startups do mostly web software, so the founders should be young because the barriers of entry aren't that high. After all, a smart kid who spends his teens coding in his spare time will be at his best by the age of 20.

On the other hand, I know startups which were founded by guys in their 30s and 40s. Their business areas were chip-design and laser tech for optical networks. The barrier of entry in these fields is huge.

To cut a long story short, if you're 35 you may be old by web-app industry standards, but you're still young by semiconductor industry standards. Since you're on HN I suppose you're into software, not hardware, so what I have just written will most likely be irrelevant to you.</comment>