I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane - <AUTHOR> http://startingdotneprogramming.blogspot.com/2013/04/i-knew-programmer-that-went-completely.html <comment><USER3> Although this is an extreme example, I sympathize and often have feelings like this. But it's not about the amount of work; it's about the constant internal struggle. Let me explain.

I have _never_ had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service. I take great pride in _delivering_ , sometimes with compromised quality, but always on time and budget. I imagine many here feel the same way.

My internal struggle is the constant questioning of _whether or not I should even put up with illogical bullshit_. I have no doubt that hard work, long hours, complex work, and difficult customers are occasionally part of my world. But every day, in my morning exercise when I would prefer focusing on the work of the day, I always find my mind drifting into anger over unnecessary bullshit like:

      - working for unethical people
      - watching others line their pockets while I work
      - choosing what's best for the company vs. the customer
      - busting my ass while others sit and watch
      - endless meetings about nothing
      - watching great stuff I built being scrapped by idiots
      - watching horrible decisions made by those for their own benefit
      - witnessing the functional taking back seat to the political
      - dealing with managers who don't understand technology (and don't care to learn)
      - dealing with people who don't understand the business/industry and (don't care to learn)
      - horrible working conditions for workers while managers get luxury
      - constant work-prevention structure imposed by people who have never accomplished anything

Some days I'm on top of the world, rejoicing when something I built provides great value to others. Other days, I feel like I'm digging holes on the beach only to see them filled up by the overnight tide of idiotic others.

My struggle continues. I only hope I have the foresight to take intervention before I ever become like OP.

<comment><USER4> You have fought the hydra bravely, and I commend you for that. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back.

What do you suppose we do?

For the long-term, here's the financial structure for the solution that I see: [http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais- macle...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais- macleod-17-building-the-future-and-financing-lifestyle-businesses/) . Essentially, I think VC-istan and MegaCorps are both dead ends when it comes to genuine technical excellence (which weird people like us care about). I think it's time to have a serious conversation about financing a fleet of mid- growth K-strategist startups instead of these red-ocean, r-strategist, get- big-or-die marketing gambits.

Here's an insane thought that I had that just might work. Find a Midwestern city that has $25 million to blow on becoming a top technology hub and set up an Autonomy Fund. (I'll do the "grunt work" of screening for talent; if this idea has legs I'd drop everything to implement it.) 100 top-notch programmers, $125k per year (out of which their resource/AWS costs come, so no one's living high on the hog), and 2 years. First, these companies are designed to become profitable, not to _exit_ , so compensation is profit-sharing, not the joke equity offered by VC-istan. The city that funds this takes a 37.5% profit- share of whatever they build (it's valuating their work at $333k per year, which is lower than a VC valuation, but the terms are better.) If it works, then add time to the schedule (i.e. more years of life and more startups) and possibly more engineers. This is like Y Combinator, but without the feeder- into-VC dynamic; it's to build real businesses that generating lasting value both to a geographical area and to technology itself.

I seriously think that Autonomy Funds are going to be big in the next 10 years-- VC-istan is essentially a shitty implementation of an Autonomy Fund, except with selection based on connections rather than technical ability-- but there are some obvious problems (moral hazard, principal-agent issues) that need to be solved.

<comment><USER5> I submit Fargo, ND for your consideration. We have oil money, cheap cost of living, and a decent tech community.

<comment><USER4> Do you think that:

(a) Fargo's local government would be supportive of a technology Autonomy Fund, and...

(b) it would be possible to get a critical mass of engineers to live there?

Also, what's the gender balance? I'm married so I don't care, but I think we'd have the best odds in a town where it's at least 53:47 women.

<comment><USER6> How about Las Vegas? I've never been there but:

1) Cheap airfare, international destination

2) A Party Town, probably helps the gender balance in one aspect, people would like to visit you.

3) No Income Tax

4) Still close to the SF Bay Area

5) Never cold, barely rains (good or bad depending on your preferences)

6) Really cheap real estate. Buy a townhouse for under $100k!

7) Many tech conventions are hosted there

8) Driving from one corner to another takes only 30 minutes according to google maps.

<comment><USER4> Here's where I'm attempting to continue the discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5578195>

If we could set up Autonomy Funds we could reshape this industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is sadly a lot more common than people think. I have a similar story from a prior employer, a system administrator who was often asked to fix problems usually caused by bad managerial decisions of which he always flagged initially as being problematic but nobody listened to him, even after it turned out he was right from the start, he was one of those guys who knew their shit. He was a really nice, quiet and reserved guy but I noticed over the space of 3 or so months his attitude towards work and the manager at the time started changing.

Not many people knew of his Twitter account, but I did. He would post crude remarks about the manager not listening to him and how he should be the manager, often using the initials of the manager when he insulted him to be careful and not be accused of slander I guess. I would often hear him in the office talking to himself, swearing under his breath and mashing his keyboard. You could tell it was getting to him. He was on-call 24/7 but apparently wasn't adequately paid the amount he should have been for someone who was expected to fix something at the drop of a hat.

One day he came in and sat at his desk refusing to do any work. He just sat there and then the manager confronted him and asked why he wasn't addressing his list of high priority tickets that he had and then the guy lost it. He didn't get violent, but he started yelling at the guy and the manager was a well-built guy (sorted of sounded and looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger) who I wouldn't even dare cross. After yelling he just walked out and never came back.

Of course my manager reported the incident to some higher-ups and then it was revealed a couple of days later he was in a mental hospital as he had a complete breakdown (he apparently drove himself there). I didn't know him that well, but I went and visited him after finding out where he was. He told me that it all built up; he was being blamed when things went wrong and weren't done on time and not being praised when things went right and were delivered within unrealistic time-frames. His girlfriend had also left him the day prior to the meltdown, he said she was unhappy because he was never home and when he was, he was always fixing something remotely or had to come in to fix something.

I have a feeling this kind of thing is a lot more common than we can imagine.

<comment><USER8> Sadly it is more common than people even think. Oddly enough it is always the ones that are most productive and I know from personal experience you can clear 200 tickets in a week and somebody doing the same job and paid more gets thru that in a year and you are the one being shafted as you spend your time doing the work instead of office politics.

<comment><USER9> Perhaps, instead of seeing your job as "what the job description says", you should see it as "whatever actually gets me rewarded."

Which is to say, at some companies, playing office politics _is_ your real job. "Work" is just a signal you can emit to show that you are willing to submit enough to not get fired.

<comment><USER10> Perhaps doing more office politics than productive work is your job's signal it's time to leave. Do _you_ want to work at a company where more resources are wasted on keeping the lights on so to speak than providing value to users? I sure don't.

If you can't talk to the CEO or CTO, if you're technical, on your first day physically at the company, that's a Bad Signal (tm).

<comment><USER9> I was assuming a context of "you become aware that your company has this problem, and yet you persist in wanting (or _needing_ ) to work there." For example, you might you need the money, live somewhere crap for jobs, and your mortgage is underwater so you can't move somewhere better. If that's the case, _then_ you should, in all pragmatic cynicism, think about your "real job" at the company.

Actually, perhaps I need to preface _all_ my advice with "in all due pragmatic cynicism." I've added it to four posts so far and people seem to react much better to them when I do.

<comment><USER10> Ah, pragmatic cynicism. Never was a fan of that, always more of a fan of unpragmatically changing things for the better. Especially these days when the global unemployment rate for programmers is ~3%, you _will_ get a different job and you _will_ get it quickly.

I'm told life looks very different if you have done anything resembling settling down. But I haven't been there yet and my glasses have rose coloured lenses.

<comment><USER11> I was in a highly political and highly toxic situation prior to my current engagement. It took me over two _years_ to get out of it. If you are not already in one of a handful of major tech hubs, it can be extremely difficult to get out such a situation. Granted, the pragmatic cynicism doesn't help, but if you can stomach it you can stay in a somewhat better frame of mind than I let myself devolve into.

<comment><USER12> Out of curiosity, what was it that was keeping you at that job? Lack of money? Family? Moving options?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Employers, even the good ones, will put as much work on your plate as you can handle and then keep going. Systematically a workplace just isn't set up to help an employee handle stress, or even pay attention to an employee's stress level. They'll ask you to work overtime even if it is obviously killing you because that's just how the typical work environment is structured. Even moving higher up in the food chain, to be a producer or manager, doesn't change this.

You need only observe how many workplaces will let employees who are obviously sick with a cold/flu come in and work to understand how poorly most workplaces respond to an employee in trouble: They will not send someone home who is _actively_ exposing coworkers to infectious diseases, so do you think they're going to notice if you're risking your health with stress? Sadly not.

So, as an employee, it's up to you: Pay attention to your stress level. If you aren't sleeping well, do something about it. If the stress is making you gain weight, do something about it. If you're having serious, serious problems, do something about it. You can't count on your employer to support you if shit hits the fan - even if it's their fault - because 99% of them won't. You have to be proactive.

You won't get promotions or raises for managing your own stress level and working reasonable hours, but you won't get promotions or raises for literally killing yourself either. So play it safe.

<comment><USER14> No they won't. Plenty of good employers understand work life balance, they understand that output doesn't linearly increase with time, especially in development. Good employers push their employees in terms of not letting them coast, giving them meaningful work and challenging them to be their best. That is not the same as piling on work and ignoring stress levels. There is an optimum amount of stress at which humans are at their most productive.

If your employer isn't like that then they aren't a good employer.

<comment><USER13> Do you even have any anecdotes to support this? I have literally never encountered an example of an employer proactively managing an employee's stress level. To suggest that an employer can somehow put employees at 'an optimum amount of stress' suggests a lot more understanding of employees than I think is possible in most scenarios.

I mean, yeah, we can spout platitudes all we want here. I agree that if you aspire to be a good employer, you should treat your employees well. But that's not the problem here: The example employee in the OP was a top performer who helped solve tough problems, and nobody seemed to suspect that anything was wrong until he snapped.

The problem is that workplaces are not designed to be able to identify an employee having problems with stress, let alone to actively manage it. I have never encountered a workplace that can do so effectively - some employers are better than others about things like work/life balance, etc. But the level of stress in your life is variable, and the level of stress being generated by your work is variable, even in the best of circumstances. It is difficult, if not impossible, for an employer to even understand how much stress you might be under outside of work.

For example, a lead artist at a previous employer got let go for getting into too many arguments at work. It was only at that point that we learned that he was having a really tough time because he was a single parent and his son was suffering from a severe, life-threatening condition. It's nice to think that if his supervisors had known they could have done something about it - <USER2> they would have - but from the outside it merely made him look like a bad employee. Maybe he wanted to keep his personal life private, maybe he thought he had it under control, or maybe they decided they had to set an example regardless of his reasons - but the point stands: Ultimately, it is up to you, not your employer, to manage your stress.

<comment><USER15> I've a friend who was told that he needed to take a vacation. Not in the "You're out of line" sense at all, but in the "We expect our employees to use their vacation time, and you've been working hard lately." He's also been told to cut back on the his hours, as his bosses didn't want him to sacrifice his personal life.

Usually when you hear stories like this, it's because the employee is screwing up. In this case, it's because the higher ups realize that proactively preventing employees from becoming overstressed is a good way to keep employees.

<comment><USER16> That's just what they told him, they really rather not pay the overtime.

<comment><USER15> Per federal law (and company practice,) he's overtime exempt.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> (Generalisation Warning)

This is the dark side of the (otherwise desirable) trait of "getting things done" as employee.

I you don't actively manage your working hours _and hold yourself back_ , somebody else will suck you out until you have nothing left.

At the end, you will be very unsatisfied for some obscure reason: You did everything you was asked for, yet somehow noone appreciates you and you still earn entry-level.

In my opinion, you should only use 80% of your working hours doing the "real stuff". Devote 20% of your working hours to non-technical work, active career development and image management.

1) talk with your boss about clients

2) show interest in the business side of your project

3) ask challenging non-technical questions

4) have a nice chat with your manager about non-work stuff

5) make sure everyone knows who had the interesting feature idea last week

6) make sure that the decision which overruled your recommendation is in the meeting report.

...

This is good for you _and_ the company in the long run.

Some of your tickets will have to wait, then. Maybe the deadline won't be met perfectly.

That's fine.

<comment><USER18> Some of the best advice I've ever had was, "when you start at a company, it's tempting to try and work your arse off to prove how worthy you are. Don't - you're not proving anything, you're just establishing precedent. Instead, quickly determine what the absolute minimum you can get away with is and do slightly above that. Then work harder for the month before review time so you can justify a raise. The extra effort will be noticed now, but if you'd worked your arse off then that would just be normal behaviour."

<comment><USER19> That may be good advice in the sense of being effective, but encouraging people to actively deceive their employers and intentionally do as little as possible is disingenuous and dishonest.

If you don't think that reflects on your integrity, or if you don't consider your integrity worth maintaining, then this really is advice that you could consider good. But telling this to impressionable people who are inexperienced and new to Real Life in general would do them and everyone they'll ever work for a huge disservice.

<comment><USER20> I think a better version of the parent comment's advice would be figure out what is a reasonable, healthy, sustainable level of productivity and try to work as close to that as possible - and no more.

<comment><USER19> Yes, _this_ is good advice. It centers on the person and advocates a work/life balance. It doesn't center on the employer and how they can be manipulated and cheated for the employee's benefit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Mental illness is very common. This story has nothing to do with programming, except that technically strong people are given a lot of leeway for strange behavior, meaning that folks who need treatment often do not get it soon enough.

The other point, and I think by now all of us should know this, is that we are each responsible for our health and our careers - we cannot look forward to a lifetime with a paternalistic employer.

[Update: this was downvoted. I'm not at all harshing on programmers or on mentally ill people. But we need to face reality; doing otherwise serves no one.]

<comment><USER22> I don't like labeling this type of situation mental illness. That suggests that it's only the individual who is ill. It seems to me that situations like this result from a sick system as much or more than from individual sickness.

<comment><USER23> Are you saying that the system is broken because some jobs ask you to be a hard worker?

The article indicated nothing specific that the company had done wrong. It even admitted that the guy was "well treated and well paid" for his hard work - he just didn't like how he was "respected".

It's astonishing me that getting paid and treated well to work hard triggers a comment that the "system is sick".

<comment><USER22> It's a matter of human beings being treated like cogs in a machine (which is in fact what they are in today's world). The potential of highly intelligent people is wasted by those who are better at extracting value than creating it. This leads to ever growing frustration which eventually explodes leading to the destruction of peoples lives.

These are seen as individual problems but if these trends continue I believe they will lead to the failure of human civilization and possibly of the human species itself.

 _hard worker_ \- exactly the type of concept that the machine uses to exploit the naive.

<comment><USER23> _human beings being treated like cogs in a machine_

You realize that Hacker News is focused on people starting businesses, right? Why are you here?

 _hard worker - exactly the type of concept that the machine uses to exploit the naive._

When you get your car worked on, do you expect that the mechanic should fix your car because you're paying him to or because you give him a hug and tell him that he's a useful human being?

When you get a cup of coffee, do you expect the barista to want not only for you to pay for your double whip latte, but to also feel that you're validating her as a human being?

The guy was "well paid and well treated". Without an iota of evidence that the business was doing anything wrong besides expecting that its employees do a good job - you indite the system and ignore the probable fact that this guy had mental stability issues that were going to come out either at work, his personal life, wherever.

<comment><USER22> _Why are you here ?_

This is absolutely typical of the problem with society.

Judge me, exclude me, push me under a bridge.

It doesn't matter what you do to me, the day will come when man will be judged by those he has judged.

<comment><USER23> I'm not pushing you anywhere. Be here if you like. I was just trying to understand it.

Your comments here are about as appropriate as if I'd go to the golf course and go on melodramatically about how awful a sport golf is. At some point, people would ask me, "Why are you here if you don't like golf?"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Your job is to produce surplus value for your employer in exchange for reduced risk and possibly to specialize into work you find interesting. (Machine Learning doesn't happen without division of labor.)

You do not owe your employer your sanity or anything above and beyond what's reasonable. (As decided by your personal satisfaction and the standards/mores of your culture.)

If you're seeking to put more into the pot so you can extract more later, save money and stash it in a mutual fund or start hustling for yourself. Employers are perfectly happy to ignore you for decades on end, if they even keep you around that long.

Don't pretend value will present itself to you just because you're putting in the hours. Like thinking you'll get a date just because you're a good person.

Edit:

Don't let employers/management guilt you into working more hours than they deserve from you.

<comment><USER9> I don't think the guy in the story felt _guilted_ into doing more work. He was trying to "climb the corporate ladder" by doing the only thing he knew how to do--working harder. He didn't understand the effort thermocline[1].

[1] [http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/gervais- macle...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/gervais- macleod-5-interfaces-meritocracy-and-the-effort-thermocline/)

<comment><USER24> I was giving advice to the general audience.

I have to admit, I find the jargon of this particular sub-culture of analyzing corporate politics somewhat annoying despite being a fan of Church.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The trick to avoiding complete burnout is easy.

First - don't care at all about your job. Remember that all corporations are by definition psychopaths and they will treat you accordingly.

Second - never do more then 35% of the work you are capable of doing in a day.

Third - if you find yourself getting stressed out tell yourself repeatedly "It's only a stupid job. There is no point in stressing about it."

<comment><USER26> > First - don't care at all about your job.

Maybe it is counter intuitive but I think healthy dose of this keeps me more productive and more focused on the job. While at work I always try to keep somewhere in the back of my mind Bertrand Russell's quote: "One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important". It helps.

<comment><USER27> Early in my career a more senior developer told me you can't do a good job unless you're willing to get fired for it. Coming from a nouveau middle class background, that was pretty shocking to me but over the years I have seen so many situations that have confirmed it to me.

<comment><USER28> Saving up a few months of living expenses in a bank account, so called "fuck you" money (or "take this job and shove it" money in polite company), can give you peace of mind about losing your job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Years ago I knew of a pair of sysadmins who were extremely overworked, often staying back late and working weekends, etc. Eventually they got a meeting with a higher-up and the opportunity to make their case that they should probably get raises and hiring another person or two would be a great help.

They didn't get more people to help, but they were told they only had to work 4 days a week instead of 5, so, you know... That's a raise, right? Problem solved! More money for less hours in the office!

Except for the fact they still had the same amount of work that kept them back at night on the weekends.

Sysadmin #1 left the meeting, went to his office and wrote his resignation letter.

Sysadmin #2 went back to his office. He was found a short time later with slashed wrists and not in a very healthy state. He was taken to hospital, patched up, and put in to a psych ward for a while. After a few months he returned to his job in a very medicated state, and just wandered around having hard to follow conversations with people. He couldn't really do his job any more, but the employer either felt guilty about letting him go, or wasn't legally able to. I'm not sure.

Sysadmin #1 successfully resigned, and was hired back as a contractor, setting his own hours and getting paid at a greatly inflated rate.

</comment><comment><USER30> This is only tangentially related, but since I'm posting under a throwaway (I've been on HN for many years under my main nick) and can't really ask anyone to upvote this, I feel that this is my best chance for someone to see it.

For the last few months I've been growing more depressed, more anxious, and more stressed. I love my job, but it requires a good deal of interaction with clients, which never fails to stress me out. Combine that with relationship nonsense and a general vicious cycle of pain (due to an injury causing chronic pain) and depression, and it's led to a situation where I'm spiraling out of control.

After many years of being fairly stable, I started self-harming again and ending up in these obsessive thought loops, culminating in thoughts of death and (occasionally) suicide. Now, I know myself well enough to know that I'm not going to commit suicide (I've been _far_ worse than I am right now, and I've managed to pull myself away from that; I enjoy life entirely too much for suicide, even if things suck right now. I still have hope for the future, and that's not something I see changing.), but this is obviously not healthy. I know I need help, but I have a few problems:

Problem #1: I can't find a therapist I can actually trust and connect with. I have serious problems talking to people in real life, so I attempted online therapy; every one I tried was a complete and utter waste of hundreds of dollars. I don't know that I'd go so far as to call them scams, but I wouldn't feel bad about doing so. Regardless, text-based therapy would make a _huge_ difference for me, and I just can't find anything that Doesn't Suck (TM).

Problem #2: I've been looking at treatment facilities to just go there, disconnect from the world, and focus on getting better. But I have a job, bills to pay (that can be dealt with by savings, assuming I have a job when I'm out), and responsibilities. I know about FMLA leaves of absence, but that requires you (!) to disclose your illness to your employee; given the massive stigma around mental illness, I really, really dislike that option. All of this, of course, means I feel even more pressure; even in treatment I would feel that pressure.

So, HN, what do I do? Problem #2 would be awesome to solve, but problem #1 is the big one; without ongoing therapy, any help I get isn't going to be sustained. I know there's a solution here, and I know I can get better. I'm optimistic about the future for many reasons, and I want to stop feeling like the sky is falling every 15 minutes.

Sorry for threadjacking, and thank you all.

<comment><USER31> I can't comment on the whole situation, since I live outside of the USA, but I can give you some advice about Problem #1.

There are great books by David Burns: "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" and "When Panic Attacks". Both are available at amazon kindle: <http://amzn.com/0380810336> and <http://amzn.com/076792083X> The "Feeling Good" book is focused primarily on depression issues and "When Panic Attacs" (as its name suggest) on various anxiety disorder. I suggest to read them both. They are really helpful, but not just because of their content(which is good), but because they present of number techniques from Cognitive- Behavioural Therapy, which you can apply on yourself. But please note that reading the book and using these methodics is order of magnitude more effective than just reading the book and internalizing its contents.

Also, can you please elaborate on your issue with finding a therapist? Can you just go to a therapy session? Or you can't because you have to overcome strong anxiety first? If you are able to come and see a therapist(being able to manage your anxiety if you have any), then find a good CBT therapist and do come see her of him. Therapists are trained to deal with people who have all sorts of issues, even such serious as yours.

<comment><USER30> Thanks for the references; I'll give them a read ASAP.

> Also, can you please elaborate on your issue with finding a therapist? Can > you just go to a therapy session? Or you can't because you have to overcome > strong anxiety first?

I've attempted to find a therapist I can communicate well with online (complete failure there -- every service I tried was less than worthless, simply because it didn't give me what I really wanted, which was a judgement- free, confidential way to talk through things) and in person. In person, it's very difficult for me to talk about personal matters (business/tech stuff isn't a problem) so finding someone I can trust is incredibly difficult.

<comment><USER32> Not all therapy is talk therapy - I thought I needed that, but had similar reservations about how open I could be face to face. When I finally bit the bullet I ended up in most-self-directed CBT, with none of that recounting- childhood-trauma or what have you. It was very pragmatic, more about giving me processes to deal with things, than me telling the psych things and them telling me how to deal with them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I think part of the problem here is that many devs often don't understand how much power they yield over their own situation. If you're good enough to be depended upon in every panic situation, that means you have more say than you think in the circumstances surrounding your work -- specifically regarding pay, scope creep, working environment, etc. If you don't assert yourself nobody will coddle you, because that's how capitalism works. The goal of the company is to maximize profits, but the cost (both time and $) in finding a talented, hard-working employee is huge and employers know that. So you have to stand up for yourself because you hold more cards than you think. If you have a passive personality where you never push back and don't stand up for yourself you will get completely rolled over.

I've met devs who only consider one side of the employee-employer agreement -- "don't get fired, don't get fired, don't get fired." What about the other side? "If ___ quits, we are screwed."

This is the reason why we invest in our skills, this is why we read things like HN, this is why we make ourselves indispensable. Because a higher level of skill, both technically, socially and in business, not only makes you a greater employee, but it gives you more autonomy over your own circumstances.

I don't agree with the comments here that encourage people to half-ass their 9-5 because "you owe the company nothing." I encourage you to do the opposite -- become so good at what you do that they can't ignore you. Be such a valuable perspective/contributor/asset that they shudder at the thought of losing you. Be great and the power will follow.

And if they still treat you like shit, leave. If this doesn't apply to your industry, leave the industry. Good, smart devs are hard to find and someone else will pay good money for you.

<comment> UK-AL Managers will actively try to stop you gaining power. In most cases authority will play a game of chicken with developers if they know they are considering leaving, rather conceding.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Work-life balance is really important, and having a safety net outside of your workplace and project is key to not going completely batshit.

What's really bad is to find yourself in a position where you see your cofounder/coworker the vast majority of the time, and your work/project gets tangled up in the normal ebb and flow of the relationship.

You really, really don't want to get into a loop where you need to decompress with your best friends, but you can't because you avoid them because your shared work is going poorly, and the work is going poorly because you can't decompress. Yeah, being in that position sucks.

Make sure you've got something positive in your life beyond your current project.

<comment><USER35> "If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things." ― Albert Einstein

Find a hobby :)

<comment> j-kidd All football fans in the world agree with Albert Einstein :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> This is sad, but it's also plain old human psychology.

If you help someone out, you put yourself in an inferior position. If you're always the one sacrificing yourself, people around you will feel more and more superior to you. At some point, they will start expecting that you sacrifice yourself whenever shit hits the fan.

This doesn't mean it's bad to help out, or to sacrifice yourself once in a while. But in order to keep sanity and self dignity, it's extremely important to learn to say no as well.

<comment><USER37> > If you help someone out, you put yourself in an inferior position.

What? This doesn't make sense. When you help someone out, you are putting that person in an inferior position. Does a beggar feel superior to you because you tossed him a quarter?

<comment><USER38> And this is precisely how the guy from the story thought, that's why he was saying he should be CEO, but the reality was different, because he was treated more like a slave..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> It is far to easy to fall into this trap. At my last job my boss always tryed to finish all my tickets until a friend in managment told me about a conversation he had with our boss. It boils down to: "Does he gt his work done?" "Yes, sometimes he has to stay in late but he gets the job done" "Then we are not giving him enough work. If there are days where he gets the job done and leave on time, there must be times when he finishes his tickets before office hours are over."

At my new job things are a lot better. When I started I screwed up a couple of times because I tryed to make things work by putting in over time and fighting until the last minute when things went south, where all I had to do was tell the mangment why I need more time / manpower like anyone else in my company.

</comment><comment><USER40> Mental health is, unfortunately, not taken very seriously by many companies. I've never seen a benefits package that included therapy or coaching of any kind. We're put under a lot of stress at times (which can be exacerbated by existing mental conditions) and that can seriously affect our health. I suspect mental breakdowns happen more often than they are reported. It's not taken seriously and it's also something people prefer to sweep under the rug.

Bad managers don't care how much you work. A friend of mine works in tele- completions for the health insurance industry. He has the highest rate of completions per day than anyone else in his unit _for nearly four years running_. He has been overlooked for every promotion and opportunity to move to a better position. The managers don't want him to leave the unit because their numbers will go significantly down if he does.

I've worked an incredible amount of overtime for employers early on in my career. I wanted to show them that I could play the game, get things done, and save the day. I thought that it would pay off. It never did.

So I stopped doing it.

I knew that the calls would just keep coming. I knew that there was no incentive to let me have time off. I knew that I would never be compensated in any way for all that effort if someone higher up could help it. As long as I was convinced that was the way the world worked, they were getting cheap labour and profiting while I was being driven into the ground and made miserable.

You have to make the life that you want. Never let anyone else be in control of you. They have no authority to make you come into work in the middle of the night or stay at work for thirty-six hours straight. I think it's a terrible shame that some people think they have some sort of power to compel others to do this for them. And it often leads to tragedies like the one the OP described.

<comment><USER41> As you and a friend found out, the problem with putting that much extra effort (especially in 'concave' work) is that a promotion would usually just remove you from the work pool, leading to the ironic effect that the harder you work, the more likely you will limit your chances of moving up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> It is important to build up your fuck-you fund. Once you have a large cushion to weather over a long period of non-working time, your attitude to work will change. Having the fuck-you option to walk away on your side will help you tremendously in dealing with pressure from work.

</comment><comment><USER43> I know a guy that started cutting himself once with a small pocket knife. He just went back to his office and lost it. He was obviously asked to leave, as he was upsetting the rest of the employees. I saw him a couple of years later and he didn't mention it so I didn't either. How do you ask someone if they are still crazy?

Stress is a killer. I try not to let it get to me; I have responsibilities.

</comment><comment><USER44> Since nobody here said it, if you ever happen in this situation were management dodges accountability for their actions or doesn't understand they are accountable. then there are two options.

1\. Stay: dissociate yourself from the work and the outcome of your work 2\. Quit: start looking for companies that are a better fit for your professional pride and when you've found one, jump ship.

Technical skills are still rare, you're not working in a supermarket here. you've got options.

</comment><comment><USER45> Its so unfortunate to hear things like this. I knew of a person who was so stressed out by programming in similar situations that he went through a complete career revamp. He changed to law school and went on to work in government. He seems happier.

<comment><USER46> This makes me wonder if the kind of burnout described by OP has anything particular to do with the profession of programming. We periodically have posts on HN by lawyers who got so burned out by their day jobs that they did a career revamp to become developers...

<comment><USER45> yeah, I wonder too. I think most people need change and its not uncommon to see people with two careers. But perhaps jobs that are highly specific in the way you get to your output are more so that way. For eg. engineers work on beautiful problems and come up with awesome solutions. But when they are forced to churn out code, its shitty and tough and repetitive process. Same for lawyers who do corp law vs. litigation. I do Product Marketing and because its such a varied job (particularly at a startup) I don't really feel a burn out. Then again, I am only 3 years into working...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Is it an american thing that workers do free overtime? I live in Sweden and I know NO ONE that stays late without being compensated either with money or shorter days later in the month.

<comment><USER48> It depends on the type of work you're doing. Most jobs in the US fall under the 'Fair Labor Standards Act' and are classified as 'exempt' or 'non-exempt'. 'Exempt' jobs do not require payment for overtime work.

The classification of a job as exempt or non-exempt is not arbitrary but I don't know all the rules governing that. I would wager that the majority of people reading this page who live and work in the US would have an 'exempt' job, though.

<comment><USER49> All "Computer Professionals" are exempt, so that would cover many of the people on this site. The other exemptions are rather broad and would probably cover most of the rest.

<comment><USER50> Not sure if it's Federal or CA law but you have to be making over a certain amount, though, to be exempt. In my last company that way everyone in the engeering dept. making under 70K (so, all of QA and tech support)

<comment><USER49> For the Federal law, it's $455 per week, so a vast majority of people make enough. I wouldn't be surprised if CA had a higher minimum, since their laws are tend to be more worker friendly than the rest of the US.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I can't make out what he was paid for "rushing things out." If it's the same as other programmers, then that reflects badly on the managers.

I've seen managers citing low profits for low salaries, but never want to give out the lion's share when the company turns huge profits. Then, programmers become cheap commodities who can be replaced. Cost is always the bare minimum you can get away with, regardless of the profits.

This is more prevalent more in the local corporate companies of my country than start ups.

I can't stress the importance of how some corporate managers hardly know anything about the technicalities, and end up agreeing to outrageous changes in the requirements. This is the problem in IT companies that engage purely in "pricing wars." And the thing is, most of these mangers don't even have the necessary communication skills, for that's all they have to do, right?

</comment><comment><USER52> Is the issue really work-life balance, or mental health? They are actually two separate things.

I had a roommate lose it. He was very disciplined, but had a chemical imbalance in his head. He was a hard worker, but did this really have any impact on his losing it? I am not an expert, but I doubt it.

The end lesson of "Don't kill yourself for a company if they don't respect you" may be true, but that seems a little disconnected from taking care of your mental health.

<comment><USER20> _Is the issue really work-life balance, or mental health? They are actually two separate things._

Perhaps, but I believe there's a close relationship between the two. Getting the balance wrong can definitely lead to mental health problems.

<comment><USER52> Maybe overwork exacerbates things, but sometimes it's just chemicals wrong in the head. It can be dangerous to treat major mental illness without addressing the biochemistry. In general I am not pro medication, but breakdowns can be deeper than work. Of course an 80 hour work week won't help an already unstable person.

<comment><USER20> Agreed. I think anyone in this situation should definitely consult a mental health professional. Depending on the factors though it can be a variety of things, and it may be a case of someone who does have a chemical imbalance but is normally fine if working at normal levels, but the overwork can push them over the edge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> "It has been my experience that good producers are more likely to be asked to continue to produce. If they moved you to a higher position and better pay then who would produce the software?"

This has been my experience as well. No company ever uses that time to great benefit either, they just use it to change their minds seven times before release instead of two. Killing yourself for someone else is not worth it.

</comment><comment><USER54> >the extra effort and hours that you put into your job as a software developer does not usually amount to someone higher up thinking you should run the company. It has been my experience that good producers are more likely to be asked to continue to produce.

In principle this is not even a bad thing. A great software engineer might not be that great as a manager or CEO.

It would be better to have a technical career track where you advance in pay, in status items (car, single office) or other perks (conference visits payed by the company). And of course a truely great company would send you on extra holiday for all-nighters and weekend-rush jobs.

<comment><USER49> It's also not necessary to move someone to management to give them more authority. Most software engineers don't want to deal with hiring/firing people or any of the other stuff that comes with being a manager, but they would be interested in having more say in technical decisions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> I worked with a guy who was an incredibly talented developer, and it was his first 'proper' development job. He was smart and good at what he did, and made a good impression, however as time progressed and the reality of ever shifting goal posts and getting half the time you really need to do something took it's toll.

Eventually he went to the doctor, who diagnosed a stress related condition and he was prescribed meds which helped for a while. But, it's that melting pot and eventually he snapped, smashed a keyboard and then threw a monitor onto the floor. I took the time to try and help and he realised whilst he loved dev work, he just couldn't deal with the stress of working inside a business and decided to give up.

It's a _hard_ industry, I'm personally surprised there's not a much higher rate of stress related illness and depression. We've all probably skirted the burnout zone on a regular basis, long term that's not going to be great for anyone. I'd say the increase in startups being lead by technically gifted people who've done development should help, but there still seems to be an acceptance of push and push until you break or the job is done.

</comment><comment><USER56> This is my biggest fear for myself.

<comment><USER8> Secret I ofund out myself is do not mix what you like to do with what you are paid to do. If you like your job fine, but remember you are paid the same. Many many companies will not reward that extra mile and many performance reviews are completely insulting as everybody gets the same % in so many companies and the variation between poor peope and good is probably an extra .5% pay rise.

So unless you are working for yourself, then work to rule will keep you sane. Use your hindsight to plan holidays, if managment don't listern in a timely manner about a potentual problem then just plan that week off down the line and let them suffer - sadly it is the only way you can stay sane and they can pay for there mistakes. Its hard out there, don't make it harder on yourself.

<comment><USER57> > let them suffer

I agree to that. If management doesn't feel pain of its mistakes it does not have an incentive to improve.

<comment><USER58> This is going to sound insulting and I don't mean it that way, but does anyone ever wonder about the fact that managers are frequently considerably less intelligent than the people they manage? I think that's what drives the frustration a lot of the time. The thing is, just because they're less intelligent doesn't mean they're not good managers, but it think it certainly makes it a lot harder for programmers, who are usually very bright, to accept the choices their managers make when they don't particularly agree with them.

Having said that, I think a good compromise would be to make sure that the people who get assigned to managerial positions have formerly had the job of the people they manage. That way they're likely to understand the pinpoints and the frustrations and be motivated to eliminate them. Obviously not all programmers will qualify for this job, but some certainly will.

<comment><USER59> I guess that you are still a novice. Usually managers did the work of their underlings. However seldomly a competent person gets promoted - as you need someone to do the work. And since the less competent person will be relatively better manager than producer in comparison to the competent person, the less competent guy gets the promotion.

I strongly advise everyone to read the Putt's Law, where this phenomena is broken down in great depth.

<comment> UK-AL "managers did the work of their underlings." - only in very traditional companies that promote on seniority.

Its not uncommon for someone straight out of college, working as an "ideas" man to manage programmers.

<comment><USER59> I apologize. My comment refers to the managers ascended from the developer ranks.

People without technical knowledge in the roles of technical managers are in a league of their own when it comes to suck.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I hope he gets better soon. I can relate to him.

The pressure one might feel is overwhelming: you're expected to work extra- hours because you have a salary greater than the region's average (not only company's average!...); you're expected to work extra-hours, otherwise you're not motivated; you're expected to work extra-hours willingly, not because you're asked or it's needed, and be happy about it; you're expected to work extra-hours because someone gave a deadline to a costumer that's technically and humanly unfeasible, and now there's no going back.

All this stress and a mental illness in a parent of mine are scaring me.

The thing is, if I had a mental breakdown and ended up in a mental institution, I would probably repeat the "pen and paper to write a program" episode. My brain is so wired to program, either for work or for leisure, that I can't stop thinking about it. If I'm not doing "something" (reading, watching a movie, ...) I'm thinking of something lisp-y. Its exhausting.

</comment><comment><USER61> Quite a relevant quote from other blog post today

Life is too short to spend every minute of it making somebody else rich.

—ardit

</comment><comment><USER62> It's not only programmers. Its managers as well.

Its anyone who subsumes their job to be their identity!

At my old company (big corporation) management shuffles happen every 9 months to a year. One manager went from having 45 people working under him to 0.

The guy had a nervous breakdown as well. I heard he swam in one of our large number of fish tanks. That could be a bad rumor though.

Anyway he was admitted and all that. The company did pay for everything till he made it back about 4-5 months later after which he quit. I remember him looking at me down the escalator and saying "its not worth it man - its not worth it."

So don't let your paycheck or your job be your identity. Also understand that programmers at tech companies (except google/facebook) are at the bottom of the totem pole. So political shit and pressure all end up on the programmer. So try to not be a bottom level programmer for long - either become a tech lead or a manager asap.

<comment><USER32> > So try to not be a bottom level programmer for long - either become a tech > lead or a manager asap.

What if I want to escape the stress, but want my colleagues to escape it too? We can't all be managers.

<comment><USER63> There are is a (well-backed by arguments) viewpoint that, in order for the capitalism in its current form to work, some portion of the population just needs to get screwed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> at-fates-hands I've seen a lot of this over the past two years. I personally have witnessed five guys completely break down.

Hell, we just had a manager who was under a lot of pressure last summer for a huge release. He had a complete breakdown and after four months off, he came back, took a demotion, but he's not the same guy anymore. He used to have a really outgoing personality and loved to talk about his band and music. Now he just nods when you say "hi" to him and keeps to himself.

While I applaud management for working with him and being patient during his recovery, I'm still wondering why other managers didn't raise flags before he went off the cliff.

For me, the larger problem is how do we stop this from happening? How can we stop these situations before people get to a dead end? For some of these people, it's really serious and something you don't ever come back from, which is really, really scary to me.

<comment><USER64> _Five_? Is there some connection - the same industry, or the same company?

<comment> at-fates-hands Same industry (web development) different companies.

The one thing which connects them all is a developer just like in the article. Driven to perfection, willing to do whatever is asked of him, and burns the candle at three ends until he finally goes over the edge. I'm talking averaging 70 hours a week for two year straight kind of candle burning. The kind of narcissistic pursuit which is simply impossible to achieve.

I have stories of all five if you want to hear them. Let me know and I'll elaborate.

<comment><USER32> I would like to hear your stories :)

<comment> at-fates-hands Here you go - didn't want to keep it short:

<http://pastebin.com/EmM6sZnR>

<comment><USER64> Thanks - I posted it back to HN <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5586350>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Learn to say "no" before it becomes your only choice.

</comment><comment><USER66> As a person who struggles with panic / anxiety, the thought of just flipping out and going mad is a huge anxious fear of mine. I often think about the great chess players who just go mad later in life, and now this, happening to a fellow programmer. The great thing about the work we do is the constant problem solving, and a lot of times I bring those problems home with me, it's nagging 'why wont it work', and I can't stop until it's fixed. It's that kind of 'always on the brain' activity that makes me nervous :). It's too bad this happened to him, but nervous breakdowns happen and hopefully time away will help.

</comment><comment><USER67> > _It has been my experience that good producers are more likely to be asked > to continue to produce._

It's my experience that good producers prefer to keep producing, maybe with a little more freedom and a bigger paycheck.

Anybody who wants anything else but is incapable of expressing that through actions and words (other than going apeshit) is unlikely to be capable of actually doing whatever else they want to do. Leaders stand up even if their job description is "producing", they don't simmer in a corner and then explode.

Given how this person handled the situation I would say the company was absolutely right.

</comment><comment><USER68> The employeer is for a big part at fault here. Off course the employee should make its boundary clear, but the employer just didnt really care for his position. Otherwise they would have noticed much earlier.

</comment><comment><USER69> Here is my advice, if you think you are really that good, start your own company. Proof it, let the market test you.

<comment><USER70> Capital doesn't grow on trees.

<comment><USER35> If we're talking about software development, I bet you can piece together a computer from the trash (where do you think my home servers come from :)) that will be good enough to run a company. After that, your only issue is food and rent (which can be either a small or big issue depending on where you live).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a very timely article personally for me and I think this is a really important issue that companies of all shapes and sizes need to be aware of.

I've had a couple of times in the past where I've come _very_ close to being this guy. I'm a very hard worker and take my job really seriously (probably too seriously), and have had management that either doesn't appreciate my contributions, or is driving the company in the wrong direction that you can just see it's going to fail. In this situation, the best thing to do (for both parties) is to simply quit.

And now I'm my own boss, and putting just as much pressure on myself as the management mentioned in the article. I've come to realise very recently (and after some wise advice from a very good friend of mine) how dumb this is, and that there's a certain point you reach where doing _more_ work actually produces _less_ value. In fact you could draw a graph of working hours vs. output, and it would rise steadily up to something like 40-50 hours, and then drop pretty rapidly after that.

I'm learning that not treating everything as urgent, and getting priorities right and accepting that some things just have to wait ultimately ends up being the best thing for everyone involved, including customers.

</comment><comment><USER71> This sounds like the final destination of burnout. Probably there should be more education about the effects of overworking on mental/physical health so that people can recognise bad situations when they're getting into them and pull out before it leads to self-destruction. Also the fault is partly on the management side. A good manager should notice if a particular person seems to be working a lot longer than anyone else under relentless deadlines and intervene.

While I've never seen anything as bad as in this article I have seen situations where the mild-mannered and earnest tech guy tries to be accommodating to help the company (and sometimes also in the expectation that their efforts will be recognised or rewarded) but really just ends up getting taken advantage of. On odd occasions (especially in the early part of my career) I have even been that guy.

</comment><comment><USER72> This is remarkably common, although this scenario appears to have played out at a more extreme level. One statement in this post struck me:

"I was the one that the company sent to visit him in the hospital to check on him after his breakdown."

Unless this article was written by the CEO...wow, what a shitty company. It's obvious they didn't value this individual for the person, but for the output. Having run my own operation, I can say without a doubt that I value an employee's output, but the only way I can really protect that long-term is by taking interest in the person. It's entirely obvious the company didn't do that.

In the end, we're all responsible for our own careers and our own mental health. Don't let your expectations get trampled and remain in an environment that forces you to find happiness. We are in a burgeoning industry, just get out there and find what works for you.

</comment><comment><USER73> I can definitely see this happening. I've never gone insane (thankfully), but when I was younger I have at times gone overboard in trying to please the higher-ups.

It becomes a negative cycle, because you think you're going to blow them away so much with your effectiveness, that they are going to bring you into the boardroom and make you a co-executive of the company.

And when they don't, you just work harder and bring even smarter ideas to the table. And they still don't (they say "thanks", but they don't rearrange their whole world view and make you a key player in the company).

The fallacy is this -- you are waiting for other people to recognize your brillance and "crown" you. You may indeed be brilliant -- I'm not disputing that.

But you can't wait for someone to "crown" you. If you have what it takes to be a key player in a company, then _start one_ (or at least, apply for jobs at that level). Whatever field you want to get in, go do stuff in it. This waiting for external validation is the flaw.

When the higher-ups start benefitting from the work of someone like this, the temptation is way too strong to simply keep the machine cranking as long as possible. And they know how they got into the positions of power they have -- they "went out and seized it", they didn't wait for someone to hand it to the because they deserved it.

So they wouldn't know how to "crown" someone even if they wanted to. The world just doesn't work that way (granted, with some few exceptions). There's no "process" for promoting someone 10 levels because you discovered they are brilliant.

Instead, those at the top took it upon themselves to say, "Hey, I belong at the top, and I'm going to insist on it." Some of them over-estimated themselves, and some didn't. But even the ones who really _do_ belong at the top did not wait to be "crowned", but decided for themselves they belonged there.

At the heart of it is an irrational need for external validation before you pursue the rightful level for yourself.

</comment><comment><USER74> There are at least 3 posts from hellbanned users there, defending sanity of that programmer.

Stigmatisation at work. :-(

<comment><USER75> I especially like lucian303's one, which I'll reproduce for those who don't have the appropriate setting:

> The 8 hour workday was fought for and won for a reason. To expect more, an > employer would be unprofessional. To accept more, except when compensated or > in extreme circumstances, makes the engineer unprofessional. One comes to > soon realize this. (See The Clean Coder: A Code of Conduct for Professional > Programmers (Robert C. Martin.)) Most companies, especially startups, don't. > It's sad to think that the culture values high stress, long work hours with > the inevitable diminishing return, and literally anything, no matter how > unhealthy, to get workers to be slaves. At the same time, a lot of these > companies have mediocre health and dental benefits with high cost to the > employee.

> Yeah, companies don't give a shit about you. And why should they? > Corporations exist to make money. That's all. Your health, while in the > long-term helps this goal, in the short-term it doesn't. The shorter the > lifespan of the company, the less they care. This is easily observed.

> The question is, why do you give a shit about your company?

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> I think this story shows a rather low degree of insight into, or observation of, the programmer's abnormal behavior and health. Come on, tell us a little about adjustment disorder, how it builds up and plays out. Or was it acute depression? Phobia? Paranoia? Was the programmer's family involved? Did he voluntarily seek inpatient treatment? Was he placed in psychiatric detention on judge's orders? Tell us how helpful or unhelpful the employer's health insurance was.

Maybe the purpose of the story is to illustrate a point, probably a good point, about workplaces. Maybe although the purpose appears to be to report a difficult event that occurred to an acquaintance, it just isn't.

In other words, I think it's possible that the story is made up.

</comment><comment><USER77> This is insanely depressing and a wake up call to all of us who work every weekend trying to get ahead. You know what gets you ahead in this world? Ownership. Anything less is just spinning your wheels. They'll only give you enough to keep coming in.

</comment><comment><USER38> It is important to learn to use your skills to create what you feel, not what some other person tells you to. Developing a skill is the easy part, learning to use it is harder, because you need to find out who you are.

</comment><comment><USER78> > It may be hard to swallow but the extra effort and hours that you put into > your job as a software developer does not usually amount to someone higher > up thinking you should run the company. It has been my experience that good > producers are more likely to be asked to continue to produce. If they moved > you to a higher position and better pay then who would produce the software?

This is why it's important to have a way to move "up" (greater reward, prestige and technical authority) that doesn't involve becoming management.

</comment><comment> ux-app If you're feeling similarly, or have in the past, and are looking for an alternative then you might want to consider teaching.

I used to do cubicle work at a couple of tech companies and fucking hated it. I simply cannot stomach office politics, and I can't tolerate others that do the whole ladder climbing, brown nosing thing around me. The straw that broke the camel's back was when my line manager took credit for my work right in front of me without even batting an eyelid. I observed this type of sociopathic behaviour many times from many people. I literally couldn't believe how many fuck heads there are out there.

Here are some benefits that I'm enjoying as a teacher at the moment:

1\. Great salary. 90k/year in Australia. I've heard that in other parts of the world it can be a low paying job.

2\. Great working hours. 8:30am - 4pm. 30 mins recess, 50 mins lunch. 7 "free" (non teaching) lessons per week (this is equivalent to one day per week) There are lots of teachers that like to play the "poor me" card and tell you how they spend every night till midnight grading work. They're either liars, or are terrible at time management. I consider myself a perfectly OK teacher, and I never go past 4pm and very rarely do school work on a weekend.

3\. _14 weeks of paid vacation_ \- I just spent the last 2 weeks doing a garden renovation and got paid to do it.

4\. No boss. Technically the principal is my boss, but in 3 years I have barely said more than hello to him and, I sometimes go months without seeing him. No line manager either. What I do in my class is my business. I choose the manner in which I deliver content as well as the interesting tangents that we explore.

5\. No office politics bullshit. Schools have a very flat org structure. If you're not looking at advancing to the admin side of things (deputy/principal) then there is effectively no career path (I consider this a good thing).

6\. Heaps of time for side projects.

7\. Varied work. No two kids are the same, no two semester are ever the same. There are always interesting things happening. Sports days, senior formal, camp etc. I recently spend a week visiting work experience kids and got to visit an army base and defence research facility.

8\. Over the years it's inevitable that you _will_ make a difference in some kid's life. Whether it's helping them through a tough emotional period or helping them make informed life and career goals.

There is no way in a million years I could go back to the regular working world. I simply could not give away the _complete_ autonomy and excellent vacation time.

In Australia there is a post-grad degree that you can do which will give you a full teacher qualification in just 18 months. Worth seeing if your district offers similar programs.

Caveat:

1\. The school you're at matters. I am at a middle class private school with great kids. I've worked at very tough schools and life sucked, however, some thrive in these conditions.

2\. The subject(s) you teach matter. Language rich will entail far more reading and giving written feedback which obviously impacts on hours worked. If you stick to Maths and IT grading is far easier.

<comment><USER79> I'm a high school student, who is considering teaching as a future career path, and I have a few questions.

1\. What subjects do you teach? Would you recommend teaching them?

2\. Did you find any value in working at a non teaching job first, then going into the teaching career? Put another way, if you were doing this all over again, would you go straight to being a teacher, or would you have a non- teaching job for a little while, and then teach?

Thanks.

<comment> ux-app Hi Neil.

1\. I teach Computing/IT and a few AU specific subjects (Research Project and Personal Learning Plan). In the past I have taught Maths up to year 8 level also. Both IT and Maths are great subjects. Personally I'm very happy teaching either of them. One thing to note is that as a teacher you do have to be willing to take on a subject you may not be entirely qualified for. For example I'm currently teaching a year 8 media studies course without having any media training. It's really all about having an open mind.

2\. Having worked outside of teaching first, even though it was only for 3 years, was invaluable. Career teachers who have only ever taught are a strange bunch. They have a totally distorted picture of reality. They don't realise that in the "real world" people:

a) have line managers,

b) have to keep time sheets which require that _literally_ every hour of time is billed to a client,

c) have a boss working across from you or continuously looking over your shoulder,

d) have only 4 weeks of paid vacation,

e) have a requirement to justify every sick day and produce a doctor's certificate for each absence etc.

f) The list goes on and on.

So in answer to your question: Having a "real" job outside of teaching has been the single best thing I ever did for my "career". It means that even after almost 10 years of teaching I still appreciate all of the great things this job has to offer.

Having said that, teaching is not for everyone. It isn't rocket surgery, but not everyone has what it takes. You have to really love the act of teaching, as well as liking being around kids most of the time.

I'm glad you're considering teaching as a career. I hope, whatever path you choose, things work out in your favour. If you have any further questions then I'm happy to pass on my email address.

All the best.

<comment><USER79> Hey, thanks for answering my questions. I appreciate the help.

I do have a few other questions. Could I get your email? If you don't want to post it here, my email is in my profile.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER80> _It has been my experience that good producers are more likely to be asked to continue to produce. If they moved you to a higher position and better pay then who would produce the software?_

My experience has been the opposite, and more akin to the Peter Principle[1]. The best engineers become team leads, and then managers, and then...

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle>

</comment><comment><USER81> Has anyone read The Bug ([http://www.amazon.com/The-Bug-Ellen- Ullman/dp/B000HWYPSE/ref...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Bug-Ellen- Ullman/dp/B000HWYPSE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1366364712&sr=8-2&keywords=the+bug))? After reading it and experiencing all kinds of work environments, I can see how a person's sanity is tested.

<comment><USER82> Yes - I came in just to mention this. A great combination of a glance into the dotcom startup days + a feel of the classic gothic horror novel.

<comment><USER81> I also saw it as a cautionary tale to people in our line of work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> Yea...i do feel depression sometimes with my work...Also to add to few points mentioned here, I am also end up doing others work when they just stuck the team work...its frustating when u end up doing others work...

But I am always in control..used to play FIFA to control my emotions until my fingers having pain issues...now i watch some movies daily...

</comment><comment><USER84> Most mental illness is an illness. Just exactly that.

Yes, we want to blame it on working long hours or exposure to unethical bosses, but that myth just makes us feel better. We like to think that we can avoid mental illness by avoiding mean bosses, like we could avoid cancer if we eat plenty of vegetables.

Unfortunately, that just isn't true.

</comment><comment><USER85> Maybe he didn't know the best way to do something vs the hardest way to do it. Just relax your mind, think the best in you to produce the best thought and we have the best product as we can. It's the boss's job to decide if we do the good job or not. Please, the boss is not our enemy, ourself is our enemy.

</comment><comment><USER86> Completely and utterly irrelevant, but for some reason I assumed it was this guy: [http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson- sussma...](http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman- lectures/)

</comment><comment><USER87> All this time I felt I was alone, I'm so tired of my bosses' BS. I've being working so long without feeling I'm working for the right company/boss, I need a break.

</comment><comment><USER88> Did anyone else laugh when they saw the url 'startingdotnetprogramming.blogspot.com'? I think there's a correlation here with the post title...

<comment><USER89> It's actually "dotne", not "dotnet". Strange.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> Sustainability dictates that you don't keep going above and beyond without corresponding rest and relaxation.

</comment><comment><USER91> The guy who wrote this should go back to school and learn how to spell.

</comment><comment><USER92> sad

</comment><comment><USER4> It's the worst week in 11.5 years to joke about what a part of me _wishes_ he had done, for the good of society, so I won't.

Seriously, though, we need to fucking take this industry back. (I am so fucking serious about this issue that I am willing to fucking split infinitives with "fucking".) These executive assholes are destroying _trillions_ in value ( [http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/programmer- au...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/programmer-autonomy- is-a-1-trillion-issue/) ) and we have no fucking need for them. Do we need people who understand business, economics, relationships, and sales? Absolutely. And more than anything, we need genuine _teachers_ to step up and provide leadership. What we don't need are the short-sighted extortionist fuckheads who pass for management in most companies.

</comment><comment><USER93> Sad story, but he needs to set aside time for himself to recuperate and recover from a work week. The old saying that many people have said time and again, that they will go crazy from working, literally happened to him. Why work yourself to the brink of insanity when the people you work for do not honestly care.

</comment><comment><USER94> Company paid health insurance is one of the stupidest thing ever, the moment you most needed it, they fire you.

</comment><comment><USER95> Poor guy, this is sad. I did have to laugh at, "He asked for a pencil and a piece of paper so he could write a program down.", however.

</comment><comment><USER94> Wow, there are some great hidden comments here, goto your settings page, turn showdead to yes.

</comment><comment><USER96> I knew a .* that went completely insane. Ok, so what?

<comment><USER23> That's what I thought as well. I expected some dire circumstance that the guy was put in, or some special lesson besides the weekly slacker "don't work to hard for the man" meme.

</comment></comment><comment><USER97> I know it's prejudiced, but I have a hard time taking someone seriously when they have a typo in the url of their site...</comment>