Release The Kraken - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2010/09/14/release-the-kraken/

<comment><USER2> Here are my results (Win7 64b, Core2 Duo 2.4 GHz):

      Minefield 4 b6           9737.7ms
      Opera 10.62             14490.8ms
      Chrome 7.0.517.5 dev    18375.4ms
      Firefox 4 Beta 5        21721.1ms
      Safari 5.0              22168.6ms
      Firefox 3.6.9           30053.3ms
      Explorer 9 PP4          64817.2ms

Though, usual caveat, it's kind of expected that the creator of the benchmark will perform the best (see my older comments on browser benchmarks [1][2]).

What's probably more interesting is the order of other browsers (for which this benchmark should be less tuned) - again Opera performed very well (and better than Chrome).

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1676456>

[2] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1458529>

<comment><USER3> My results (OSX 10.6, Core2 Duo 2.4GHz)

        Safari 5            13939.9ms +/- 1.6%
        Chrome 6.0.472.55   19155.2ms +/- 1.3%
        Firefox 3.6.4       23567.1ms +/- 2.8%

<comment><USER4> Yeah, on my MacBook Pro (OS X 10.6, Core i5 2.4GHz) I got

      Safari 5               11018.2ms +/- 0.3%
      Chrome 6.0.472.55      15342.7ms +/- 1.0%
      Firefox 3.6.8          18917.6ms +/- 0.1%

Interesting (but maybe not surprising) to see that Safari is consistently being reported as faster than Chrome on OS X, but not on Windows.

<comment><USER5> My iMac with Safari 5 was a little more 14ms...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I see what's going on here. Mozilla's trace compilation approach has a lot of startup overhead but produces extremely fast optimized code for inner loops. Therefore, their benchmark includes compute-intensive tests with long-running inner loops to amortize out the costs of JIT compilation and focus on the raw speed of the generated code, where they beat Chrome.

(Note that I'm not saying this is unfair or biased at all. This is a good set of benchmarks to have.)

</comment><comment><USER7> I think JS performance on Firefox has now reached the point where its good enough. All I ask for now is parts of the UI to become multithreaded so as to prevent the random issues one gets when having in the neighborhood of 150 tabs.

<comment><USER8> I don't think there's a software solution for the issues someone with 150 tabs open must have.

<comment><USER9> Yes there is. It's called Google Chrome. I presently have 164 tabs open in it across 6 windows. It works just fine.

I am regularly amused by the stream of inane blog posts from "UX Professionals" declaring bankruptcy because _oh god they have 22 tabs open_ — and then they go on to propose some ridiculous unbuilt UI that's even less capable, but makes them feel designery.

Chrome does start to bog down eventually, and I can respond to that by killing off worker processes, which leaves the swath of tabs it was responsible for dead, but still in place with their URL and I can just hit refresh. With Firefox the whole browser will repeatedly lock up for seconds at a time at a much lower usage threshold and eventually crash completely, taking 5 minutes out of my day. Before I switched to Chrome, I would have Firefox would crash at least 10 times per week. That and their regular releases baking AwesomeBullshit into Firefox instead of releasing extensions was more than enough to compel me to ditch it.

<comment><USER10> I still don't understand why you could possibly need 164 different web pages open at the same time. What kinds of things are you doing that simple bookmarks can't solve?

<comment><USER9> They form stacks of things that haven't been finished with yet. If I bookmark something in that state, it just falls off the end of my brain. In a tab it remains in my periphery.

I shall attempt to document what I am presently filling all those tabs with:

      * Personal Gmail and Google Reader, along with a dozen or so links opened from them
      * Several work-related OWA mailboxes and Google Apps mail and docs accounts
      * 10 Hacker News discussions, including the one I'm making this comment in.
        Normally there would be two for this discussion as I open the 'reply' link
        in a new tab to not lose my place, but this tab was from a Notifo growl
      * A couple dozen tabs are for music, TV, games, and films to investigate/pirate
      * A dozen profiles of people to get in contact with on social networking sites
      * Another dozen active threads on several phpBB forums I am a member of
      * Several dozen tabs of product pages from manufacturers, alibaba, and ecommerce
        sites for several physical projects I'm working on.
      * A dozen tabs of research for software projects I'm working on

Depending on what I'm doing at any one time, any one of the things counted in _dozens_ could dominate. If you'd caught me during a RSS binge, there'd also ba a whole bunch of extra small windows each containing a single flash video embed, generated by the "Popout" functionality in Google Reader.

Of the tabs presently open, about half are new in the last 24 hours. Chrome's chrome://history/ page only lets me page back through 450 items chronologically, which is about a third of my average daily usage.

I've tried a number of tools to collect links in — bookmarks, social bookmarks, Google Docs, Google Wave, etc., but I always end up falling back to tabs because I'm already using them anyway! I'm currently giving the Chrome/GDocs bookmark syncing a shot for things that are 'out of mind'.

<comment><USER11> Do you only have one computer? Is it a notebook or desktop? It's hard for me to relate to these kind of use cases, because I use many computers, several of which are notebooks. I could never use a workflow like you because I'd always be losing all that state.

<comment><USER9> Right now I use a 27" iMac at home almost exclusively, but there's a handful of other computers that I use in various locations, and several have persistent sessions (which makes gchat think I am available almost 24/7). It was more of a problem when I commuted every day, but I mostly just had different sets of things that I was looking at on each compy.

The Google Bookmark sync actually works pretty well between all of them for things that aren't transient. I just realized that there's probably a decent 'bookmarks sidebar' extension out there, and combined with "Open All Bookmarks in New Window" that could alleviate a lot of my project-related tabcruft.

I have indeed "lost all that state" many times over the years, but it hasn't happened since I switched to Chrome (It did corrupt its session once, but it keeps a backup). It happened every couple months with Firefox on Linux, though I couldn't dig as big of a hole since it crashed more than once per day on average.

Years ago when I used Safari as my main browser it didn't have session saving yet, I used a SIMBL extension that continuously saved all state (including the full DOM with no redownloading), but ironically caused it to crash much more frequently. In those days I would rotate between Safari, Camino, and Shiira using two at a time, so that when the primary started to fall over I could start a fresh session and let the tabs dwindle in the old ones until they could be quit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Firefox4 is faster than chrome here on ubuntu lucid x86_64 on an i5 with 8g of RAM.

Results for firefox 4 beta7:

[http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%...](http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%7B%22v%22:%20%22kraken-1.0%22,%20%22ai- astar%22:%5B822,823,833,918,808,806,930,893,794,906%5D,%22audio-beat- detection%22:%5B950,945,939,964,959,994,1015,855,929,985%5D,%22audio- dft%22:%5B524,522,533,546,576,557,574,507,532,500%5D,%22audio- fft%22:%5B896,808,862,908,868,886,803,893,904,887%5D,%22audio- oscillator%22:%5B400,405,398,396,431,420,416,408,396,426%5D,%22imaging- gaussian-blur%22:%5B669,711,679,675,672,675,686,687,761,679%5D,%22imaging- darkroom%22:%5B287,261,267,265,267,262,261,265,260,263%5D,%22imaging- desaturate%22:%5B631,617,666,628,615,621,637,659,626,648%5D,%22json-parse- financial%22:%5B270,269,260,258,262,263,258,279,259,275%5D,%22json-stringify- tinderbox%22:%5B76,77,81,73,75,77,71,71,70,74%5D,%22stanford-crypto- aes%22:%5B455,481,446,439,457,471,430,431,439,455%5D,%22stanford-crypto- ccm%22:%5B347,376,358,341,363,391,334,351,361,345%5D,%22stanford-crypto- pbkdf2%22:%5B876,854,743,725,858,920,811,754,823,834%5D,%22stanford-crypto- sha256-iterative%22:%5B125,122,119,126,119,133,121,118,119,119%5D%7D)

Results for chrome 7.0.517.0 dev:

[http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%...](http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%7B%22v%22:%20%22kraken-1.0%22,%20%22ai- astar%22:%5B730,728,722,706,782,718,707,712,709,693%5D,%22audio-beat- detection%22:%5B1316,1243,1286,1311,1362,1245,1310,1309,1286,1307%5D,%22audio- dft%22:%5B1954,1820,1933,2047,2151,1838,2022,1901,1986,1868%5D,%22audio- fft%22:%5B1191,1156,1314,1199,1281,1148,1181,1174,1243,1199%5D,%22audio- oscillator%22:%5B470,436,442,436,461,425,472,442,442,455%5D,%22imaging- gaussian- blur%22:%5B3258,2979,3169,2845,3094,2934,3424,2943,2953,3057%5D,%22imaging- darkroom%22:%5B1356,1340,1375,1353,1359,1391,1417,1384,1369,1387%5D,%22imaging- desaturate%22:%5B1458,1383,1429,1472,1366,1387,1417,1420,1364,1354%5D,%22json- parse-financial%22:%5B241,245,252,250,276,241,272,249,236,232%5D,%22json- stringify- tinderbox%22:%5B177,203,194,221,177,180,176,176,180,175%5D,%22stanford-crypto- aes%22:%5B110,120,108,160,111,117,108,112,112,133%5D,%22stanford-crypto- ccm%22:%5B102,101,92,114,98,92,104,95,97,114%5D,%22stanford-crypto- pbkdf2%22:%5B286,224,244,264,231,232,255,241,225,243%5D,%22stanford-crypto- sha256-iterative%22:%5B100,99,102,145,110,96,100,102,96,98%5D%7D)

</comment><comment><USER13> The beat detection section was most interesting to me, as I spent a lot of time trying (and mostly failing) to do reliable beat detection when I was in high school for an XMMS plugin. It amazes me that this is now possible in a web browser.

</comment><comment><USER14> It'd be nice if one of the JS benchmarks actually POST'd the results back to the server, with current browser, and had a UI that allowed comparing the results for different browsers on different tests.

<comment><USER15> Both Kraken and Sunspider provide results in a form that you can copy and paste, and a UI for comparing results from different browsers. (But they don't let you view results from previous users, which I guess might be what you're asking for.)

<comment><USER14> Right, I'm asking for a way to see results in aggregate. Admittingly there's a problem of differing hardware (which I somehow overlooked).

<comment><USER16> Also, given the number of 'fans' on the Internet, I suspect that such a tool would have serious issues with users tweaking the benchmark and uploading fake data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> On mine, I notice Opera performs the worst by more than double.

(Win7, AMD Athlon XP2400 2.0GHz)

      Chrome 6.0.472.55 beta:      46946.5ms
      Opera 10.62:                234444.6ms
      IE9:                         71864.8ms

<comment><USER18> Those results would be roughly similar to the other poster's if you removed one of the four 4s in the Opera results. Maybe just a typo?

<comment><USER17> Not a typo (hopefully the links don't break): [http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%...](http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%7B%22v%22:%20%22kraken-1.0%22,%20%22ai- astar%22:%5B32513,32341,32777,32656,32514,32441,32704,32735,32496,32702%5D,%22audio- beat- detection%22:%5B13392,13352,13439,13441,13468,13511,13512,13498,13591,13636%5D,%22audio- dft%22:%5B12617,12492,12488,12542,12532,12588,12705,12653,12566,12596%5D,%22audio- fft%22:%5B13001,13100,12974,13096,13036,13063,13088,12788,12819,13257%5D,%22audio- oscillator%22:%5B12034,12029,11974,12173,11964,11932,12063,11961,11938,12027%5D,%22imaging- gaussian- blur%22:%5B84502,83618,83081,84435,83552,83328,83933,83664,84429,83362%5D,%22imaging- darkroom%22:%5B15763,15860,15790,15747,15667,15709,15792,15644,15779,15767%5D,%22imaging- desaturate%22:%5B27018,27016,26940,26925,26871,26824,27091,26932,26850,27274%5D,%22json- parse-financial%22:%5B224,212,213,214,213,213,222,213,213,214%5D,%22json- stringify- tinderbox%22:%5B401,405,409,401,430,393,381,392,394,392%5D,%22stanford-crypto- aes%22:%5B5217,5219,5314,5262,5297,5350,5074,5077,5107,5485%5D,%22stanford- crypto- ccm%22:%5B3409,3473,3318,3367,3281,3564,3336,3315,3362,3305%5D,%22stanford- crypto- pbkdf2%22:%5B11301,11372,11370,11354,11403,11575,11476,11482,11477,11485%5D,%22stanford- crypto- sha256-iterative%22:%5B3533,3516,3507,3708,3739,3511,3529,3532,3514,3803%5D%7D)

[http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%...](http://krakenbenchmark.mozilla.com/kraken-1.0/results.html?%7B%22v%22:%20%22kraken-1.0%22,%20%22ai- astar%22:%5B32873,38682,41930,42621,40265,42050,41002,41858,44168,34591%5D,%22audio- beat- detection%22:%5B13517,17093,17228,17621,17567,17224,17318,17332,15772,13988%5D,%22audio- dft%22:%5B12805,15290,16651,16159,16030,14956,16213,15753,15162,13041%5D,%22audio- fft%22:%5B13026,15952,15898,17424,16019,16492,16187,16463,13189,13610%5D,%22audio- oscillator%22:%5B12022,14719,14995,15875,15098,15246,15764,15612,12454,12490%5D,%22imaging- gaussian- blur%22:%5B84288,106911,104806,109762,120613,106632,105434,103935,111242,86459%5D,%22imaging- darkroom%22:%5B15848,19121,18561,20218,20333,19419,19091,20191,19862,16294%5D,%22imaging- desaturate%22:%5B28567,34460,34010,34522,33539,35851,32458,34620,35079,27922%5D,%22json- parse-financial%22:%5B235,277,265,262,251,302,262,266,221,223%5D,%22json- stringify- tinderbox%22:%5B392,599,569,545,503,614,467,522,576,397%5D,%22stanford-crypto- aes%22:%5B5261,6902,6406,6670,7511,6824,6681,6517,8541,5568%5D,%22stanford- crypto- ccm%22:%5B3498,4475,3944,4195,4174,4632,4483,4555,6196,3401%5D,%22stanford- crypto- pbkdf2%22:%5B11501,14601,14147,14569,14840,14723,14418,15278,21103,11818%5D,%22stanford- crypto- sha256-iterative%22:%5B3535,4333,4665,4679,4590,4783,4664,4519,5316,3977%5D%7D)

Of course it performs much worse on this benchmark than other browsers on my old hardware, but I haven't noticed any problems while browsing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Is there any documentation? What are the components of this benchmark?

<comment><USER15> If you run the benchmark, the results include a list of the tests with links to short explanations.

EDIT: Click to the results page and explanation links: <http://bit.ly/cXTBUb> (using a redirect because HN broke when I used the real URI)

Here's the list:

      ai:                          922.9ms +/- 3.2%
        astar:                     922.9ms +/- 3.2%

      audio:                      5564.5ms +/- 3.4%
        beat-detection:           1996.1ms +/- 5.2%
        dft:                       821.8ms +/- 6.8%
        fft:                      1965.6ms +/- 6.0%
        oscillator:                781.0ms +/- 0.9%

      imaging:                    2875.9ms +/- 1.4%
        gaussian-blur:            1271.2ms +/- 1.1%
        darkroom:                  510.1ms +/- 0.7%
        desaturate:               1094.6ms +/- 4.0%

      json:                        365.9ms +/- 1.6%
        parse-financial:           235.5ms +/- 1.6%
        stringify-tinderbox:       130.4ms +/- 2.1%

      stanford:                   2392.1ms +/- 3.2%
        crypto-aes:                468.7ms +/- 2.0%
        crypto-ccm:                656.2ms +/- 3.5%
        crypto-pbkdf2:            1063.0ms +/- 4.5%
        crypto-sha256-iterative:   204.2ms +/- 2.9%

<comment><USER19> Looks like a heavy focus on compute-intensive tasks. A* is definitely worth optimizing since it will help games.</comment></comment></comment>


Windows 8: Microsoft will declare victory, but will anyone believe it? - <AUTHOR> http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2012/10/22/larry_walsh_on_windows8/

<comment><USER2> I went to go use a Windows 8 PC at Best Buy the other day and was shocked.

In screenshots everything looks clean, crisp, and modern - then comes the task of using it. I don't understand who at MSFT thought it was necessary to preface every action by a splash screen and inordinately long loading times. Also, am I missing something? Does everything you do have to be full screen? Is having multiple windows open and multi-tasking a thing of the past?

I know I'm coming from a place of ignorance - having only used it for about five minutes. I'm sure I don't quite understand how to use the OS yet. However, I design software for a living. If I'm not able to immediately figure out how to use everything and why this is a better approach than what they've done before, or what their competitors are doing, then how is the mass populace?

I hate to come on here to be so negative, but the usability of Windows 8 is simply abysmal.

<comment><USER3> On the other hand, I also design software for a living and despite having used it a large number of times I still find OSX to be (for me) a usability nightmare. I just don't know how to do anything and find the interface completely counterintuitive.

Windows 8 seems just like Windows 7 with an extra layer and I found Windows 7 to be extremely usable. It's all pretty subjective.

<comment><USER4> That's really the problem. Windows 7 / 2008 R2 are by far Microsoft's best operating systems yet. Going to be very tough to replace, which is what they seem to be trying to do.

<comment><USER5> Win 8 is a better OS than Win 7. Sensibly faster, proper multi monitor support, lots of cool improvements (explorer, task manager etc).

It's sad that most people can't see behind Metro. Press Winkey +D on that start screen and start enjoying a great OS.

<comment><USER6> Metro is what they're selling. Are you blaming people for testing Microsoft on their own promises?

<comment><USER5> They do NOT "sell" Metro for the desktop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Well, when both Vista and 7 came out, Microsoft would tout the great adoption rates they were seeing with their sales numbers. They would conveniently leave out that purchasing a PC with XP on it at that point involved buying Vista/7, and then "downgrading" it, which went on the books as a Vista/7 sale, but went to the customer as an XP sale (ish).

So yeah, when Microsoft declares victory, I NEVER believe it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Essentially ...

"There's much to be excited about. Yet, not many in the channel are excited. In fact, the Microsoft ecosystem – component makers, PC manufacturers, distributors and resellers – is bracing for a lull rather than a surge in Windows-related sales."

<comment><USER8> On the same note, with today's economy it's likely the majority won't bother upgrading since their Windows installs work, so why upgrade now?

<comment><USER9> That may be true but, as far as I remember, it's the most sensibly priced version of Windows yet. Only $40 to upgrade.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It almost feels like MS is setting itself up to be able to throw their whole OEM ecosystem out the door. MS is seeing their market shrink, so they may decide to stop sharing it with other people like they have in the past. They are starting by getting their toes in the water with Surface, Azure and direct-licensed upgrades to Windows.

If so, that would be the boldest thing I've seen from Balmer (which is why I'm very hesitant to actually believe it).

<comment><USER11> Out of curiosity, how do you see Azure fitting in to this plan?

<comment><USER6> Easy - it's the fabric on which the iCloud-like services from Microsoft will be delivered.

Didn't Apple rely on Azure (in addition to other cloud providers) for iCloud? Or am I completely off the mark there?

<comment><USER11> I'm wondering why the traditional OEMs would feel betrayed by new cloud services. I guess it fits the general "post-PC" theme.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The problem with Windows 8 is that Microsoft built a touch-oriented operating system, but none of the OEMs are shipping machines that are notably more touch-oriented than their Windows 7 lineup. And the Metro aspects of Win8 offer no benefits to a mouse user, while being significantly less discoverable without touch. You just have to watch a few "first time using Windows 8" videos on Youtube to see how unintuitive it is with a mouse.

<comment><USER13> It's actually ok with a mouse - it just takes a bit of getting used to. To be honest, I use it entirely with the keyboard now (Metro included). I've forced myself to use Caret browsing in IE and the reuslt is that I've actually turned the touchpad off on my ThinkPad. This is not because I don't like the mouse interaction, but because I like the keyboard interaction.

I agree however that this is primarily touch oriented, which is why they're pushing surface. I'm grabbing a surface pro when it comes out.

I've tried it on a Sony AIO desktop PC with touch support and it was pretty good on that. Unfortunately it's the kids' PC so I don't get to meddle with it much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think Windows 8 is a long-term proposition for Microsoft. I doubt they are expecting any remarkable change in the short term; there just won't be enough compelling Win8/touch-enabled devices out there to make a difference. They need to grow market share over time. They are practically giving away the upgrade to consumer users which a big change from the past.

This is similar to the early XBOX strategy, which took quite a while to come to fruition, but the XBOX division is now doing very well in terms of market/mind share.

Microsoft clearly wants to enterprise market and that takes time.

<comment><USER15> > Microsoft clearly wants to enterprise market and that takes time.

It's a pity that Canonical haven't seized on this and made their focus Ubuntu in the enterprise. I think it's pretty clear that Ubuntu as a consumer OS is a dead duck, but it does have a place as a viable alternative to Windows in the business environment. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be their primary focus and continue to put resources into 'touch' computing, Unity and mobile devices where they're never going to effectively compete with Apple, Google and Microsoft.</comment></comment>


For people with an abusive partner, lockdown means captivity - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/30/abusive-partner-lockdown-domestic-abuse-charities-women-home <comment><USER2> Where I am, the second paragraph of the executive order establishing the "lockdown" explicitly states that victims of domestic violence are exempt and are urged to leave for a safer location. It makes clear further in the order that services provided are considered essential and should remain open and that transportation is also essential and should remain available.

The news media simply does a terrible job of communicating what exactly these "lockdowns" mean.

People that had a daily respite because their spouse left for work, or (as the article mentions) the stress of the situation is causing alcoholism and relapses into violence are people that need help and that the system in place most likely doesn't have the capacity to handle. This is where additional resources need to be made available.

<comment><USER3> Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation?

A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere

B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out."

I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.

<comment><USER4> An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

<comment><USER5> > An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an > accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if > you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but > never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

Police not taking it seriously (in part, because it's viewed as wasted time because the accuser will so often recant even when the accusation is true) is an enduring problem with domestic violence, and police are very well trained to enforce well-defined public orders like curfews (which shelter in place orders are just a variety of) even if they aren't specifically trained for pandemics.

<comment><USER4> There is a difference between taking seriously in the sense of "I am reporting a crime, please actually investigate it" (which, yes, often doesn't cause a crime to be investigated) and "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being held hostage in my own home; please send a police escort to rescue me from my house; and then, optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I may be safe for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

The police are _very_ well-trained to respond to the latter request. They might not have the capacity for protective custody (some do, some don't), but they'll at least do the "ensure you are escorted safely away from your home" part 100% of the time. They'll usually be willing to take you to a relative's home, if they live nearby; or, if not, to an emergency shelter for victims of domestic violence, if your city has one. You'll usually be asked to file a police report; you'll be given a case number, and the contact information of someone in the police department you can reach out to if your abuser is stalking you. It's sort of a "pre-restraining order"—the police can't legally stop the other person from being where you are, but they'll usually be willing to come and intercede if your abuser just shows up near you in public and tries to intimidate you. (This helps the police as well on what is now your open case, because they'll be witness to whatever happens between you and your abuser.)

<comment><USER6> > "I am afraid for my well-being and/or am being held hostage in my own home; > please send a police escort to rescue me from my house; and then, > optionally, please take me into protective custody, so that I may be safe > for a few days while filing a motion of a restraining order."

These magic words likely will elicit the correct response from law enforcement. But being able to formulate this phrase implies awareness on the part of the victim that they are being abused, that something can be done about it, and that they have the courage to do what it takes to escape. The truth is that many victims are manipulated into believing there's no way out. Even the ones who do pull the trigger experience a lot of pain upfront that only becomes worth it later - they are still emotionally attached to their abusers.

We should absolutely educate people as to the usefulness of police in abusive scenarios (an abuser would have the victim think they are helpless), but getting victims to recognize and say the magic words is more than half the battle.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> We might also take some delicate thoughts that the absence of a lockdown does not imply the absence of captivity. An abuser can leave for a workday, or weeks at a time, and still have a captive.

But I very much understand the spirit here and now I am feeling sad thinking about all those people out there that are possibly suffering even more right now. I can hope that some of them find the strength to walk away after experiencing this, but I know fully well that this isn't how it works.

It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street.

And for all those other houses down the street that look happy, they could be hiding the biggest captives of all.

What a heavy topic to unwind.

<comment><USER8> >It's crappy how I feel like I can change the world if I try, but I can't change the house down the street.

That's because it's way easier to think about fixing the world in a theoretical way than it is to start making small realistic changes that gradually turn into something bigger. As someone fighting domestic abuse outside of the system, this work can get very messy but over time you develop your understanding of what works and what doesn't work. It is possible to make real progress and actually stop abusers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm Stuck in a flat above heroin/crack abusers, they have dealers in all the time, abuse the victim card and keep getting away with it. Police, council.... all just victimhood them and dispite over years and years of having hard evidence, they just ignore it.

Equally the partner of the women had a business, working and she got him hooked on the stuff, she's abusive, killing him and nobody over the years seems to care as she is for want of a better word - classic dark triad case [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad)

I've suffered abuse, homophobic abuse and as I'm not gay, it has been ignored. Even malicious gossip about me being a peado, again all ignored by the powers that be and I've done all the right things, tried so many times and been ignored.

Since lockdown they have guests all the time, dealers, really nasty people and yet, i'm still ignored.

Housing association in question even gone out their way to protect them and she has driven so many people out of their homes due to her abuse and still is allowed to get away with it as she excels at playing the victim, lies and I could list endless examples, it just frustrates me how these people keep on being allowed to carry on.

So yes, very mindful of abuse, sadly the system seems to excel at enabling them.

Oh as for police, even had instances of them not only doing nothing, but informing the dealers who informed upon them. Like passing on statements to her so she can show the dealers she didn't inform upon them and with that, lets them back in to the detrement of those who stood up.

So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support.

I'm now at stage that I need a good investigative reporter as I have recordings and other proofs as the police have failed me so many times that I've lost faith in them completly. As I have all support systems.

I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there.

Sorry if this not best place to talk about this, but I've tried and tried all the right avenues and only to be failed.

Also sorry that I can't bestow all the details as it is so painful and triggers my PTSD but I'll try.

<comment><USER10> >So nobody dares do anything as they have lost faith in the police and all support. >I have aspergers and have serious PTSD due to years of this abuse and need help getting the truth out there.

Here's one uncomfortable fact about our society that most people sort of feel, but don't usually express in words. Despite what people say, nobody gives a damn about others' problems. People will tell you all kinds of kind and supportive words, because it makes _them_ feel good about _themselves_ being so kind. Nobody will go an extra mile and risk being attacked/sued/defamed, unless the problem starts seriously affecting _them_. Please do yourself a favor and put together what other people said and what they have done so far, and you will find this as the most plausible model.

If you truly have Aspergers, think of this purely logically. How much time/effort have you put into getting the truth out there? What if you put the same effort towards simply moving elsewhere? Make sure you understand what neighborhoods/apartment types will have lower probability of the same problem. Also think of renting a detached house in the middle of nowhere and working remotely. It could cost comparably to a downtown condo, but you will get priceless peace and quiet.

It is sad, but there is no "getting truth out there" option. There is an option of fighting the windmills, hearing kind words from everyone, while still stuck in a lifestyle you hate. Or there's an option of being selfish, setting a goal that will help you and just you, and allocating every resource you have towards achieving this goal.

<comment><USER9> I have thought this out way more over the years and trust me - the only way forward would be public humiliation from somebody that would traction and with that.

I need a reporter who will listen and be listened too.

I have 2 years worth of recordings and with that, many examples of police ineptness, abuse.... the lot and nobody takes me seriously.

EVen played audio of her dealing, threateneing...and short version, they did nothing. Also many corrupt police, shocking but you do find out the hard way and so many inept police, shocking again, well less so in todays over-woke climate and sadly nothing constructive happens.

However this whole coronavirus, well, sad when that is doing more than I could to highlight the issues and more so, makes it harder for them to get the drugs, so I'm taking solice and great comfort in their suffering currently, sad I know but if you know all I've had to endure, it's enabled me to cope more in talking about this and trying again.

Heck, even dug out police home and private numbers and lets just say, they are useless, but hey, I feel better for it. Share the stress :).

<comment><USER10> The reporters care about stories that could bring a lot of attention, and hence advertisement. It's their bread and butter and unless they do so, they will be stuck with "utterly shite art remuneration".

In a world that accepts the whole neighborhoods crawling with mentally ill homeless drug addicts (google Downtown Vancouver East Side, or San Francisco Homeless) covering this would hardly be worth the reporter's time, sorry. Seriously, imagine how an article want would look like, and try to find anything similar published recently. Then divide your search results by the estimated number of crack dens in the areas you searched, and you'll find out that your chances of winning a lottery could be higher.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I feel like this is a valid concern, but really when it comes to abusive relationships ... a lockdown isn't the problem / aggravating circumstance /etc.

I worked with kids who came from abusive / were in abusive families. The volume of abused partners who willingly stayed with the abuser was astonishingly high. They would even follow an abuser from one town to the next, even with services and options to not do so available.

That's not to blame them, and circumstances make things very hard (especially if you're poor, have kids, or both). But it is the simple reality that the abused partner's willingness to leave and stick to that decision was the real trigger for any positive change, and not the circumstances of their life. It is not an easy decision or easy thing to do, but there was just not getting around that it was the key too.

Obviously you can't just throw that at someone being abused because recrimination is of zero help / won't make things better.

Either way in a lockdown, or out of one, the victims are often just as "locked" in psychologically.

<comment><USER12> This is the most HN comment I've seen in a week. You tried not to blame the victim and acknowledge poverty is the trap but then came off as doing that in the context of personal responsibility shaming. Poverty or the fear of poverty is the real decision maker here; the math is as unforgiving as orbital mechanics.

And please don't reply, "But there are programs!" Governments and NGOs convince voters and donors that they are doing something by creating programs for domestic violence and then make those programs so difficult to enroll in that they spend half of their funding creating labrythine beurocracy. Anyone already at their mental capacity with abuse struggles even starting these processes.

<comment><USER13> To me it seems like you're falling into the trap of thinking that poverty somehow diminishes the agency and responsibility of the person.

<comment><USER12> Poverty does two things to us: limits our degrees of freedom (available choices) and diminishes our decision-making capacity (a famine/crisis response[1]). In extreme cases, poverty leads to sleep deprivation in which we cannot make even basic rational decisions.

[1] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20518805-scarcity)

<comment><USER13> I've been poor most of my life. I don't need to read a book to know that it sucks. I would say that wealth _enhances_ life, not that poverty _necessarily_ diminishes it.

The OP's point stands: most people who choose to stay with their abuser are not starving and sleep-deprived to the point of being unable to even have a choice, eh? _There 's something else going on._ (Are there no wealthy people who fail to leave abusers?)

Anyhow, the question you raise in a sib comment is more important: how can we help victims of abuse choose (and succeed) to leave their abusers?

<comment><USER12> Thanks for sharing your perspective. As it happens, I also grew up poor. I found the book extremely interesting so I wouldn't discount it just because you had that experience.

<comment><USER13> Cheers! It looks pretty interesting.

Just to be really clear, I'm not trying to say that poverty makes things harder, or course it does. Really all I want to point out is that even in the worst circumstances we still have the power to choose how we respond or react to them. But again, it's possible that circumstances are so bad that it becomes really difficult to make good decisions. I'm not trying to blame people for their circumstances, or bad fortune, or even their bad decisions (we all make mistakes.) I'm not really trying to _blame_ anyone for anything. I believe that people are generally doing the best they can with what they've got.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's known that abuse cases tend to spike around Christmas and new year as people tend to spend a lot of time home together with their abusive partners. That's during a rather merry time. With lockdowns in place and the stress people are dealing with currently not only will it get worse for current victims we will have more victims of abuse in the months coming. Governments should not only be concerned will the economic consequences this pandemic has caused but the social and mental health problems it is causing currently.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm glad there's starting to be some press about different groups for whom the shutdown has outsized negative impacts.

Another such "forgotten" group is Alcoholics Anonymous. Their meetings are mostly canceled, and for a lot of those folks those meetings are what keeps them on the wagon.

<comment><USER16> I think you could replace those with online meetups though?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Also children with abusive parents. Normally one of the factors that can limit abuse is that a teacher or school employee might notice an injury. Some schools are trying their best with "remote visual inspections" (I wish I was making this up) but it's surely not as effective.

And a shocking number of people are trying to rationalize this tragedy as "not that bad", wow.

</comment><comment><USER18> If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Some people call the police because McDonald's screwed up their order. Call the police.

<comment><USER19> >If you suspect one of your neighbors is being abused, call the police and report it. Don't wait, don't hesitate.

Talk to your neighbors before you call the cops on them!!!!

If you see someone get physically abused then sure, you're witnessing a crime in progress, call the cops. If you're not then don't. It's wildly inappropriate to call the cops on a hunch.

If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can discern whether or not you are correct. Cops are good at arresting people. They are not good at mediating. If they get called to a DV situation where they can't arrest someone they have a lot of potential to make things worse.

<comment><USER20> > If you think a neighbor is being abused but are not sure then just be their > friend and communicate with them (you're neighbors, it's reasonable for you > to have each other's phone numbers and email addresses) until you can > discern whether or not you are correct.

This "wait and see" approach gets people killed.

Personally, I'd far rather be investigated for something I didn't do than have someone else die because a third party didn't act on their suspicions.

Hunches can be wrong, but they come from somewhere, and they're often right.

Furthermore, abusers are good at getting their victims to never tell anyone about what happens, and often at hiding or destroying evidence, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> In addition, sadly there are nearly 0 shelters for men.

[https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male- victi...](https://nypost.com/2017/10/29/these-shelters-help-male-victims-of- domestic-violence/)

<comment><USER22> Good point. It reminds us that it's not only physical violence that counts. Sometimes psychological violence (harassment, blackmailing etc.) is even worse, especially when kids are put in the mix.

<comment><USER23> I'm sure physical violence happens against men as well. Many would never retaliate or really physically defend themselves against a woman. And you can be very vulnerable when you sleep or look away.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> For _everyone, lockdown means_ relative captivity.

</comment><comment><USER25> Or if you just don't like your roommate, but can't afford to live on your own or move out.

<comment><USER26> That is a pretty flippant comparison.

I'm the trustee of a regional women's shelter; we run a small building of 8 apartments which we offer to women and children as short-medium term refuges at no cost.

The people who arrive with us are experiencing trauma past breaking point (often abuse is normalised and needs to be significantly escalated until someone is willing to take flight), with symptoms of PTSD, depression, and often significant physical injuries. Children absorb this abuse in a similar manner, without any means to process the trauma.

Organisations like our face an extremely uncertain future; while the need for what we do remains, and probably increases, many women are unable to move or scared to due to the government advice on travel. This is against the backdrop of being unable to procure supplies; we provide our residents with everything from food to nappies, all donated or bought from cash donations.

I appreciate that living with a difficult roommate is a testing circumstance. But domestic abuse is truly a different level of horror.

<comment><USER27> When do you think there will be shelters for the victims of domestic abuse from women?

I had a a friend bullied to suicide by their mother but there was just no support for someone who wasn't physically abused by a man in the 00s.

<comment><USER26> There are. Awareness is growing and all organisations which are serious will have a plan in place and facilities available.

Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

My organisation is in the UK, so I can't speak for elsewhere.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, and for your loss. DV is truly horrible in all circumstances, and the effects ripple through many people.

<comment><USER27> >Should someone present at almost any shelter now their case will be assessed on whether violence occurred rather than gender.

Domestic abuse does not begin and end with violence.

My friend was never physically hurt, yet he was still tortured enough to kill himself.

<comment><USER28> Verbal/emotional abuse is still a form of violence.

[https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse- defined/](https://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/)

> Domestic violence includes behaviors that physically harm, arouse fear, > prevent a partner from doing what they wish or force them to behave in ways > they do not want. It includes the use of physical and sexual violence, > threats and intimidation, emotional abuse and economic deprivation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I think that the situation can have more positive than negative effects in this sense.

A major problem with abused people is that they assume that their current life is more predictable (comforting) than the other options (being jobless, poor and alone and having a low self-estimate), so they relativize and hide the situation because they fear more the uncertainty. Maybe they will solve the problem temporarily trying to avoid him/her for some hours.

The lockdown can be a real eye-opener in this sense (and safety is at a fake cough of distance).

Moreover, to hide the problem from their neighbors would be almost impossible. Everybody will be at home 24h/7days a week for months, including men and women that would be otherwise working in the city all day, unaware of the situation for years.

A wife alone at home all day could choose avoid getting in trouble herself and shut their mouth about what happens in the next door just by fear. Men will be much less tolerant with this situation, specially when in front of their wifes and children. Will be pushed to do something about it to restore their role as, well... men.

And of course, being cynical, there is a small possibility that the coronavirus just fix the bug for once and for good, or will send the abuser alone to an hospital with pneumonia. A place where will be unable to hide their body marks to medical staff, will find psychological support and enter in a program for people abused and will have some extra time to rethink about their toxic relationship and heal in every aspect

<comment><USER30> Oh god, you clearly don't have much knowledge of abusive partners, because you couldn't be more wrong.

<comment><USER29> Maybe we could discuss the ideas instead to discuss my knowledge and just say I am wrong. We both could learn something.

Play the neiborghs a role denouncing abusive situations? I think that yes, in my experience they sometimes do it. Therefore more people at home could be traslated easily to more videos, more audios, and more denounces. Am I wrong?

Do the victims choose to ignore that they are being abused? IMHO Yes, they do, for years until the situation can't be hiddden anymore or something happens and the victim suddenly awake.

If the victim does not choose to change and break with their former life, there is not a lot of things that other people can do. In my experience victims lie, systematically, constantly, about the real situation and they actively try to protect their abuser.

Your experience can be different, of course.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Estimates are that, if governments do nothing to combat Covid 19, then the life expectancy of the whole population will be reduced by a mere 20 days.[1]

Sacrificing 4 months of exercise, meaningful conversation, sex and other basic human needs is really not worth it.

[1] For example 13.26 million QALYs divided by the US population [https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost- ben...](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/another-covid-cost-benefit- analysis/)

<comment><USER32> The euphemism of "Life expectancy of the whole population" is disguising that you're saying 200k-1.7 million deaths is worth you not having to stay home for 4 months. This isn't even factoring in the millions who will suffer severe cases needing hospitalization and suffering permanent lung damage but won't die.

Secondly, the article you linked has several arguments against your own conclusion. For example, that many will suffer permanent lung damage, a significant multiple of the number of people who will die will be seriously ill and need hospitalization, and that this cost-benefit analysis overvalues the lives of the young over the old.

<comment><USER31> There are alternatives to locking the whole population down: For example the Imperial College study predicts less deaths if only the 70+ population is locked down.

[https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial- college/medicine/s...](https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial- college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI- modelling-16-03-2020.pdf)

Also look at page 10: If you lockdown for only 5 months, the virus just comes back and still kills 1 in 500 people.

If you want to minimize the deaths, the study suggests that you need 400+ days of lockdowns over a 2 year period.</comment></comment></comment>