Mathematics Teaching No Longer Works - <AUTHOR> http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2015/01/your-fathers-mathematics-teaching-no.html

<comment><USER2> I tried to look up the original research for the table of what the Fortune 500 are after, and there's something odd there. The paper was _Cassel, R.N.; Kolstad, R. (1998). "The critical job-skills requirements for the 21st century: Living and working with people". Journal of Instructional Psychology 25 (3): 176–180._.

JoIP is [http://www.projectinnovation.biz/journal_of_instructional_ps...](http://www.projectinnovation.biz/journal_of_instructional_psychology), published by 'Project Innovation, Inc'. There appear to be no archives, and patchy availability of paper abstracts online; so I checked the principal author - he's Dr Russell N Cassel - [http://library.csusm.edu/about/rooms/cassel.asp](http://library.csusm.edu/about/rooms/cassel.asp) ... who _retired_ in 1974 to found...Project Innovation Inc.

While Dr Cassel's bona fides are not in doubt, you have to wonder about the level of peer review you get publishing in your own journal.

However the reason you'd need to see the original paper is that the Stanford work and Devlin's article are predicated on the assumption that the Fortune 500's priorities have changed, but the Stanford paper shows no figures and no confidence intervals from Cassel's paper, so was this just noise? Were the 1970 and 1998 studies even comparable?

Secondly, it's now 17 years since the second study - getting on for as much of a difference as there were between the two studies. If priorities are supposed to change so much over similar timescales, surely more recent evidence is required?

<comment><USER3> One might also wonder about causality versus correlation. Do executives cite "teamwork" today because they even know what it is, or because the buzzword has been drilled into us every day for the past 30 years?

<comment><USER4> Interestingly, Google's n-gram viewer says that "teamwork" was at its lowest from 1970-1980: [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=teamwork&year_...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=teamwork&year_start=1940&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cteamwork%3B%2Cc0) It didn't regain its 1950s peak until 1990.

That's also when "workplace collaboration" took off.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's working exactly the way he has argued for in earlier writings: as a way to weed out students and have them memorize meaningless procedures.

Two years ago he was arguing that "it's survival of the fittest; the process has no respect for the individual, but overall is extremely effective." [http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2012/12/the- darwinization-o...](http://devlinsangle.blogspot.com/2012/12/the- darwinization-of-higher-education.html)

And before that, he was arguing that math is basically just a meaningless symbol game of memorizing: "more advanced parts of the subject are created and learned as rule-specified, and often initially meaningless, "symbol games." ....must be learned in much the same way we learn to play chess: first merely following the rules, with little comprehension..." [https://plus.google.com/+DougHolton/posts/hJ35zfWYofF](https://plus.google.com/+DougHolton/posts/hJ35zfWYofF)

Luckily, a few colleges and instructors are trying to actually teach and support student learning in these classes, instead of just acting as gatekeepers who don't have a problem with high failure rates: [http://blogs.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/12/intro-college- scienc...](http://blogs.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/12/intro-college-science- classes-that-enable-instead-of-weed/)

</comment><comment><USER4> Quoting: any parent who opposes adoption of the CCSS is, in effect, saying, "I do not want my child prepared for life in the Twenty-First Century."

That's a bunch of baloney. The premise of the essay is that Fortune 500 companies are the best at deciding how our children should be educated, and therefore whatever scheme is aligned with the needs of the largest businesses - what's good for General Motors is good for America - is the one we should pursue.

Just yesterday here on HN, account 'edward' posted a link to a 2012 Forbes article titled "The Rise of the 1099 Economy: More Americans Are Becoming Their Own Bosses". You'll notice that the 'Fortune 500 most valued skills' doesn't include "independent thinking" in the list of top topics.

You'll also notice it doesn't include fine arts appreciation, history, ethics, and the other ideals of a classically educated citizen, as compared to modern educated worker.

<comment><USER6> "You'll notice that the 'Fortune 500 most valued skills' doesn't include "independent thinking" in the list of top topics."

Are you suggesting CCSS does a worse job of fostering independent thinking than the curricula it replaced? Quite the opposite CCSS is completely infused with helping children reason about unfamiliar problems in ways that allow them to manipulate data and mathematical concepts. You're erecting a lovely strawman there, but the fact if you want your children to be better entrepreneurs then inquiry based learning is much better than sitting through info-dump lectures and memorizing algorithms without context.

"You'll also notice it doesn't include fine arts appreciation"

Perhaps because it was an article about math education, written by a mathematician, on a math blog, with math in the title.

If you're really interested in this stuff, then it is worth reading some educational theory. There has been a lot of work on how the "classically educated citizen" is a myth, only ever instantiated in a tiny elite. To argue that all children should be educated in such a way is to argue that all children should be part of a liberal elite. Which is not a bad argument, but is not one, at its core, of education.

<comment><USER4> If the article is, as you say, only about math education, then it cannot conclude "any parent who opposes adoption of the CCSS is, in effect, saying, "I do not want my child prepared for life in the Twenty-First Century."" At best it can say that a parent who opposes adoption of the CCSS _for mathematics_ , etc.

Since it makes a broad statement regarding CCSS, it cannot be, as you say, restricted to math education standards. (There's also the technical observation that CCSS is not the only way to achieve those underlying aspirational goals. I see that Minnesota has decided to not use CCSS, and assume a Minnesota parent may oppose CCSS for the honest belief that the Minnesota standards are better for a 21st century life than CCSS.)

I brought up "classical educated citizen" precisely because it is a different mythos. The essay only concerns itself with one specific goal - train the workers of the top 500 companies of the 21st century. There are dozens of often opposing goals for the education system[1], and to focus on only one is a disservice. You suggest I should read some education theory, but omit that the essay author is equally lacking; which was my point.

But since you bring up education theory, and elites, I feel it's useful to point out your own strawmen. We've long had multiple education methods in American schools. See [http://cuip.uchicago.edu/~cac/nlu/fnd504/anyon.htm](http://cuip.uchicago.edu/~cac/nlu/fnd504/anyon.htm) from the 1980s, on "Social Class and the Hidden Curriculum of Work". It points out that:

\- "In the two working-class schools, work is following the steps of a procedure. The procedure is usually mechanical, involving rote behavior and very little decision making or choice"

\- "In the middle-class school, work is getting the right answer. If one accumulates enough right answers, one gets a good grade. One must follow the directions in order to get the right answers, but the directions often call for some figuring, some choice, some decision making."

\- "In the affluent professional school, work is creative activity carried out independently. The students are continually asked to express and apply ideas and concepts. Work involves individual thought and expressiveness, expansion and illustration of ideas, and choice of appropriate method and material."

\- "In the executive elite school, work is developing one's analytical intellectual powers. Children are continually asked to reason through a problem, to produce intellectual products that are both logically sound and of top academic quality. A primary goal of thought is to conceptualize rules by which elements may fit together in systems and then to apply these rules in solving a problem. Schoolwork helps one to achieve, to excel, to prepare for life."

To simply say that the options are "inquiry based learning" as compared to some sort of "info-dump lectures and memorizing algorithms without context" is ahistorical. It's like saying that before agile there was only waterfall.

You say my argument is "that all children should be part of a liberal elite. Which is not a bad argument, but is not one, at its core, of education."

I find that odd because, sociologically speaking, your statement is that all children should be part of the middle class or the professional class. Consider this quote from [http://www.academia.edu/2976656/Social_class_and_social_acti...](http://www.academia.edu/2976656/Social_class_and_social_action_The_middle- class_bias_of_democratic_theory_in_education) :

> collaboration and teamwork have become increasingly central characteristics > of middle-class life over the 20th century. Group success often requires > managers and professionals to work closely with people they have no long- > term relationship with. Each individual in these contexts is expected to > independently contribute his or her own particular knowledge and skills to > an often weakly defined common project. Collaboration in these groups is > facilitated by the relatively abstract, elaborated discourse predominant in > middle-class settings (Bernstein, 1971; Brown, 1995; Gee et al., 1996; von > Trotha & Brown, 1982). For the rest of the article, I refer to this > particularly middle-class form of joint action as discursive collaboration

Collaboration ("teamwork") is a middle-class value and has been for decades. Why is promoting a middle-class value "at its core" part of education, where so-called "liberal elite" goals are not?

Fussell back in 1983 in "Class: A Guide Through the American Status System" also pointed out that teamwork was part of the middle class. I can't find a direct reference online, though I found this summary: "Corporations hire [the middle class] from second-tier colleges and teach them that being a team player is the most important thing they can be." \- [https://danielmiessler.com/study/class/](https://danielmiessler.com/study/class/)

A push for teamwork was solidly part of middle class consciousness already by the 1980s, and likely much earlier. Part of my 'baloney' is to reject as propaganda that idea that it's some new 21st century ideal.

[1] I would love a school system which educates more about the Participatory Citizen and Justice-oriented Citizen described in [http://www.mills.edu/academics/faculty/educ/jkahne/ps_educat...](http://www.mills.edu/academics/faculty/educ/jkahne/ps_educating_the_good_citizen.pdf) . Otherwise, "Personal responsibility, voluntarism, and character education must be considered in a broader social context or they risk advancing civility or docility instead of democracy." You'll note that Fortune 500 companies are not run as a democracy, and would prefer docile employees over justice- oriented employees.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I think Devlin has useful things to say about math education sometimes, but his argument here is terrible.

The big mistake is conflating the CCSS eight basic mathematical principles with the actual curricula as implemented by the textbook publishers. There's a lot of crap being adopted, as publishers tack common core reference numbers on hasty edits of bad textbooks.

Then there are all of non sequiturs in the article. Eric Mazur has success with IBL? Must be just the thing for first graders. Children in India with access to a computer taught themselves all kinds of interesting things without instruction? Sounds like a Common Core classroom to me.

</comment><comment><USER8> Fortune 500 most valued skills is a bit misleading. Reading skills not in list for 1999. May be all candidates already has good reading skills. Or may be fortune 500 companies want to hire candidates without reading skills?

</comment><comment><USER9> To give the earlier comments posted here their due, I think Keith Devlin's argument in the interesting article kindly submitted here is incoherent enough that it is possible even for people who largely agree with Devlin's conclusions to disagree with how he presented his argument. I really like to talk about mathematics education here on Hacker News, because I am a (part- time) mathematics teacher by occupation.[1] It's plain that mathematics education is better if it is really _education_ ("drawing out," by word origin) rather than teaching in the sense of speaking out words that maybe no pupil is listening to. Mathematicians are fond of saying that mathematics is like swimming--you can only learn it by doing.

I can cheerfully damn the Common Core State Standards in Mathematics with the faint praise that they are generally better than the previously existing curriculum frameworks in most states of the United States.[2] I have lived in other countries, and I know that mathematics education can be done far better than it is done in the United States.[3] Keith Devlin is certainly correct that young mathematics learners must learn to work exploratively with challenging problems that cause them to think and wonder about what they are doing rather than merely memorizing thoughtless procedures.

It is also crucially important that elementary school teachers be trained and equipped to teach mathematics well, as lousy mathematics instruction in early childhood is an especially strong factor that keeps many American pupils poor.[4] Right now many families are doomed to low incomes and thus low upward social mobility by how their children are instructed in mathematics in elementary school.

[1] The nonprofit organization that organizes the classes I teach provides some details about the classes.

[http://ecae.net/math1/](http://ecae.net/math1/)

[http://ecae.net/math2/](http://ecae.net/math2/)

[http://ecae.net/math1/orientation/](http://ecae.net/math1/orientation/)

[2] [http://educationnext.org/files/ednext_20123_Forum.pdf](http://educationnext.org/files/ednext_20123_Forum.pdf)

[3] "Good intentions are not enough" by Richard Askey

[http://www.math.wisc.edu/~askey/ask- gian.pdf](http://www.math.wisc.edu/~askey/ask-gian.pdf)

Review by Roger Howe of _Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics_ by Liping Ma

[http://www.ams.org/notices/199908/rev- howe.pdf](http://www.ams.org/notices/199908/rev-howe.pdf)

"Word Problems in Russian and America" by Andrei Toom

[http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN- NEW.pdf](http://toomandre.com/travel/sweden05/WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf)

[4] "Racial Equity Requires Teaching Elementary School Teachers More Mathematics" by Patricia Clark Kenschaft

[http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea- kenschaft.pdf](http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER10> Did it ever work?

</comment><comment><USER11> I am absolutely amazed at how much the debate centers around the content of what is taught with Common Core. There was an article a few days ago on HN about the mathematician who came up with the design for the math portion of Common Core.

I think these people are completely missing the point. The focus should be on _how to teach_ , not necessarily on _what_ is being taught. My sister is a teacher. She has taught at some of the worst schools in the state (1,000/1,100) and is just now beginning at one of the best schools. The problem isn't the math itself; it is how the math is taught.

For some reason everyone in society feels compelled to voice their opinion on how things should be done in education. This is absurd. Would the average person dare tell a nuclear engineer how he should be designing his reactor? Would they pretend to argue about the airflow over an aircraft wing? Would they tell me I'm using the wrong Hamiltonian in my QM simulations? No, of course not. They have absolutely no expertise and no experience in the field. Similarly, the vast majority of _everyone_ has no experience whatsoever teaching thousands of very different students from different backgrounds with very different learning styles and needs. So why then does everyone feel like they have the capacity to decide what the best education system is?

Most people recall going to school themselves when they were younger, and they know what learning strategy worked best for them, and then they project this learning style onto everyone else. That's not going to work. Does that mathematician who helped designed the Common Core standards have any experience working with a class where 97% of the students are on free lunches and their parents are in jail and addicted to cocaine? Of course not; his daughter goes to an upper-class school. Her situation is completely different.

<comment><USER12> > Would the average person dare tell a nuclear engineer how he should be > designing his reactor?

If the average person were ocasionally or maybe even throughout their life engaged in designing and building reactors, even just once, yes they would.

Let's say an engineer build one nuclear reactor during their lifetime. Would you give their opinion any weight in nuclear reactor design? Well you should. Especially if the reactor is still standing safely and producing electricity (or you know, loads of Plutonium) [extrapolate to -- they are gainfully employeed in a profession, not starving, or sleeping on the streets].

Unlike nuclear reactor or QM circuits building every adult is at some point engaged in learning. Both as the one being taught (child, student) and the one doing the teaching (parent, mentor, tutor).

> Does that mathematician who helped designed the Common Core standards have > any experience working with a class where 97% of the students are on free > lunches and their parents are in jail and addicted to cocaine? Of course not

Agreed. But then you take their datapoint as a singular data point, and with a grain of salt that they came from a family of college professors, etc etc. Instead of drug dealers.

Moreover, what the mathematician designing the Common Core should have done was to look at what are some of the components in a country with better scores and a more successful school system. I think we talked about about the school system in Finland here (or was Reddit, can't remember anymore). The key was that it wasn't just "better teacher" or "better worksheets" but a better environment. Like you said, not being afraid of going home and getting beaten by a drunk parent or worrying about not having a dinner that night. No ammount of fancy new Worksheet and "shotcuts" will help that child.</comment></comment>


The New TextSecure: Privacy Beyond SMS - <AUTHOR> https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-new-textsecure/ <comment><USER3> Would kill for the desktop version of this. This team is the gold standard of cryptographically secured messaging; what Colin Percival's Tarsnap is for backup, Whisper is for communications.

Congrats on the new release.

<comment><AUTHOR> Telegram got 6+ million downloads in the first week: [https://twitter.com/telegram/status/437743435395514368](https://twitter.com/telegram/status/437743435395514368)

While TextSecure still only has 100k+ installs on Android: [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.thoughtcri...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.thoughtcrime.securesms&hl=en)

Despite Telegrams known crypto failures: [http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1yrv46/after_gettin...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/1yrv46/after_getting_18_million_new_users_in_just_one/cfn9wro)

Hopefully iOS and Desktop clients help TextSecure take off and beat out the weak crypto apps. Multi-platform is critical these days for messaging apps.

<comment><USER4> Apples to oranges.

Telegram's been around close to a year or so now. They are an established mainstream app and they look like an obvious "WhatsApp replacement" if one is looking for one. Far fewer people are looking for a secure IM app _per se_ , so your numbers aren't really that surprising. Regrettably, unwashed gray masses don't give a flying f#ck about _quality_ of the crypto, so TS doing crypto _better_ is not a tangible conversion benefit.

<comment><USER5> i actually think the sign up process of textsecure is more obvious than telegrams.

but i found that use it to transparently send sms when needed super confusing to people.

people don't want to use sms. if they did they would just use that instead.

in cyanogenmod it's even more confusing. cyanogenmod integrated it to their base system, but you have no way of knowing if the text message you just sent is really encrypted or not (unless the other party tells you since he's running textsecure), i'm guessing/hoping that'll improve though

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is probably the most optimistic thing in security in the past year. Thank you!

It's still tricky to get security due to the platforms on which software runs, but now users can make reasonable choices about which platforms to trust, and by not tying your messaging application to hardware with a black-box baseband, users actually have a decent chance.

Hopefully there will be more progress on baseband-less mobile devices and reasonable networks for those users.

</comment><comment><USER7> Will there eventually be support for using your email address as your identifier instead of a telephone number?

In a world of IP connected devices, the need to tether your self to the telecom cartel for an identifier is outdated. It would be ideal if future versions of TextSecure let you log in with just your email and then you could run the app on your tablet, desktop or any other devices without a SIM.

<comment><USER8> Is there an country code for the internet?

<comment><USER9> Just put 0s till you fill the text box, they'll know what you mean.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Whisper Systems' headquarters is located in San Francisco, according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisper_Systems](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisper_Systems)

Doesn't that make them susceptible to a search warrant forcing them to give up the private keys (or equivalent) to TextSecure, ala Lavabit?

<comment><USER11> Yes it would make them susceptible...if, like Lavabit, they actually held private keys that secured your communications. They don't.

While I have the utmost admiration for Levison's stand, the fact that Lavabit held centralized private keys for its users was a very bad technical and security decision. Moxie has more about this here [1].

Now some may be wondering, what's to stop Whisper Systems from backdooring TextSecure by court order? In a word, this: [2]. The TextSecure client is open source. Not only can the community scan the source for something suspicious, but we can build and verify the binaries ourselves.

[1] [http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/lavabit- critique/](http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/lavabit-critique/)

[2] [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/)

<comment><USER12> The fact that the app is open source is nice, but realistically speaking very few users will build their own copy from source over just downloading an existing binary from Google Play or the Apple App Store. Nothing (but garden variety trust in the source of the binaries) is stopping a situation where there is a clean open source version and then a version with a backdoor built into binaries submitted to the app stores.

And even if you are one of those paranoid users who builds from source, a backdoored central build could still impact you personally unless you're sure everyone you are messaging has also built their own from clean source.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about this scenario playing out, but I don't see that the client being OSS really buys you much safety practically speaking.

<comment><USER13> This is true, but at least it lets a small group of people do the verification work and post in a public place if the publicly distributed binary stops matching up with the one built from source.

<comment><USER12> Yeah, but you have to trust that someone (who is really independent and not in on the backdoor) is actually doing that. Also, the fact that all binaries distributed through mobile stores have to be signed with a private key makes this a more difficult proposition with mobile software than it is with desktop software. (Unlike desktop EXEs you can't just hash the resulting binaries).

I supposed you could pull apart the container format (apk or ipa) and compare the .class files (Assuming Java, I haven't looked at this software so I don't know if it is standard Android or a lot of NDK stuff) or ObjC object files one by one to look for discrepancies versus a local build using the same tools... hopefully someone volunteers to do that and keeps doing it again on each new release.

<comment><USER14> The Whisper Systems people and the community are already discussing this issue, at least for the released Android app:

[https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127)

For iOS I believe that decrypting the binary and doing an objdump, then comparing the resulting assembly is a reasonable approach to ensuring that two builds do the same thing. Comparing objdump results won't protect against particularly insidious backdoors like those injected through data resources or binary headers, but in tandem with a source audit should give a fairly respectable degree of assurance.

This process would be quite easy to automate.

<comment><USER15> > _For iOS I believe that decrypting the binary and doing an objdump, then > comparing the resulting assembly is a reasonable approach to ensuring that > two builds do the same thing._

Not a chance.

And if someone is doing this, we are well past "particularly insidious".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I think their choice of GPL3 is a mistake; it's premised on the idea that people will only ever use one app to communicate and it'll be their app.

In reality that's never going to happen; people are always going to use multiple apps to communicate whether it's via photo sharing apps, games or something else.

We need a secure messaging infrastructure that transcends single apps - <USER2> that means it needs to be under a licence that can be integrated with both open source and closed source applications.

It's not just a case of integrating with consumer apps but also business apps. You want your secure messaging system to be able to connect to every CRM, help-desk, shopping etc. system and again that requires a more liberal licence than GPL3.

(Also it's not clear that you can legally distributed a GPL3 app on iOS)

<comment><USER17> I think GPLv3 is perfect in this scenario. There's no reason why you can't integrate it with a proprietary application or distribute it on iOS -- just purchase a proprietary license exception from the authors.

<comment><USER16> They don't seem to have copyright assignment from third party contributors so they wouldn't have the legal ability to do that.

<comment><USER18> Woa, that's a big big problem, then.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Moxie, it's probably pointless to do it now, but right before or soon after Whisper is finished, you need to set-up some crowdsourcing of language localization for Whisper. Doesn't have to be anything complicated. Just arrange all the text nicely in a txt file and let people download it and then upload the file for a certain language.

I think localization could give a great boost to Whisper in countries where English isn't the native language or that well known, and it doesn't cost you much to do this. But as I said, it's probably best to just wait until Whisper is finished, if it's coming out this year.

<comment><USER20> We agree that localization is super important. TextSecure is localized into 30 languages already. We use Transifex to crowdsource it: [https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/textsecure- official/](https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/textsecure-official/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Okay, it seems the server is open source? And the protocol supports federation? Could I just run my own server and it will just work™ with users on a different server?

Are you basically presenting me with an option next to xmpp/otr?

<comment><USER22> When I looked at it (which is already a couple of months ago), federation wasn't "just works™". A new server needed to be explicitly permitted into the federated network by WhisperSystems. Every server has a full copy of the list of clients and on which server they are and servers trust other severs completely when they claim "we serve the user with phone number 555-123456".

<comment><USER23> I would think it should be possible to make a decentralized back-end where servers don't need to be trusted.

<comment><USER22> Not if you want it to be "SMS based", by which I mean: use phone numbers as identifiers. A server can't easily prove to another that it serves the user with a specific phone number. There's no cryptographic proof possible, there's no hostname part like in email. You can verify by sending a text message, but that gets expensive if you need to do it often.

This is trying to combine 3 points on Zooko's Triangle [1]: You want human- meaningful names (which phone numbers are, because they map to existing things), so you have to make a trade-off between decentralization and security. WhisperSystems opted for security for some reduced decentralization. For something that's aiming to replace text messaging, I can't really blame them for that choice.

[1] = [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle)

<comment><USER24> It's a shame there isn't a standard means to associate keypairs with existing phone numbers in a way that doesn't involve establishing _new_ trust. A <your_phone_number_here>.yourcarrier.com DNSSEC secured subdomain provided by your existing carrier that can be coupled with BrowserID perhaps. All you need is a cryptographic tie-in, right?

<comment><USER22> Getting carriers on board to make a texting replacement? Well, you can dream. ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm very excited to see this for iOS! I never really trusted iMessages but the most painful part of iMessages is the vendor lock-in. Now I don't have to worry about the type of device that my friends use.

</comment><comment><USER26> On my wishlist is some kind of basic Google Voice number integration. Since messages are encrypted then clearly we can't use the GV web interface, which is fine, since what interests me is the "one phone number" feature of GV. I've given out my GV phone number to everyone and they get confused when they get SMSs from my actual SIM number. But besides that, excellent work as always!

Edit: after browsing some feature requests on their Github repo it looks like GV makes it difficult/impossible to do this. Too bad.

<comment><USER27> I thought I read that CyanogenMod had middleware that enabled SMS apps to use GV number/service, as well as native SMS. Found it [1] (support began in nightly CM 10.2 builds in early December).

[1] [http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/whisperpush-secure- messaging...](http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/whisperpush-secure-messaging- integration)

<comment><USER28> The CM/GV integration is most likely going away. There was a recent post on G+[1] that called out May 15th as the end of unauthorized use of Google Voice

> \- Finally, we want to make Google Voice as secure as possible. There are a > few third-party applications that provide calling and SMS services by making > unauthorized use of Google Voice. These apps violate our Terms of Service > and pose a threat to your security, so we're notifying these app developers > that they must stop making unauthorized use of Google Voice to run their > services and transition users by May 15, 2014.

[1]:[https://plus.google.com/u/0/+NikhylSinghal/posts/MjyncJEbzxK](https://plus.google.com/u/0/+NikhylSinghal/posts/MjyncJEbzxK)

</comment></comment></comment><comment> mike-cardwell My only concern about this is the lock-in. Has that been considered? What happens when I decide to stop using TextSecure? Will I need to tell everyone to delete a key from their phone or something, so messages don't come through garbled? Will they not come through at all, because they'll attempt to use the data channel and my phone wont bother even attempting to pick them up anymore?

What if I lose my phone and get my provider to send me a replacement? I guess I wont be able to read the incoming texts anymore? If some auto-negotiation takes place to change my key, then isn't that exposing a trivial MITM? Would I be alerted of such a key change?

<comment><USER29> I had this happen to me - where someone I was messaging stopped using it without telling me. One message came through as garbled, but then there's an easy way to "end secure session" and new messages go through in plaintext. For switching between textsecure phones, I just re-initiated a key exchange. This was months ago, so it may have changed

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> A few things we should be looking very critically in secure messaging apps are:

1\. How are keys generated? PseudoRandomGenerator() used? What sort? This is one of the key break-in areas into a crypto framework.

2\. Software based crypto used? It's prone to channel attacks where another app maybe inspecting the memory.

3\. How are keys shared?

4\. How are keys stored?

"Security" would just be illusion, a flawed insurance policy if these aspects are not properly catered for. There's a reason why hardware crypto exists.

The weakest link in any security system is the "key". Does not matter how strong the crypto algorithm is as long as key management is not rock solid.

</comment><comment><USER31> Even as an Android user, I'm anticipating the iPhone release as the idea of a cross-platform iMessage replacement (seamless SMS/IM) that's also secure and open source is _very_ exciting to me.

</comment><comment><USER32> I'd really like to try their new app, but they only distribute it through Google Play. That excludes an awful lot of their potential users, especially those who most care about privacy.

<comment><USER33> See [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/127) for a detailed discussion why.

You can built it yourself.

<comment><USER32> Telling users without Google Play to "just build it yourself" is arrogant an unacceptable. I find Moxie's response to this criticism arrogant and condescending. This is a major reason why I'm not using TextSecure, even though I would like to be.

<comment><USER34> He gave sound reasons why building it yourself is currently the only secure distribution method outside the Play Store.

I didn't find his tone to be arrogant at all. You're conflating arrogance with correctness, and though many people on the internet use both simultaneously, they are two separate things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Who is paying for the servers this runs on?

<comment><USER36> NSA/CIA/etc..

<comment><USER37> Like all sensible crypto systems it doesn't matter if the server is compromised, encryption is done client-side. The project is open-source, so you can verify this for yourself.

<comment><USER36> Bad joke, consider it withdrawn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I'd like to see OTR implement some of the groupchat enhancements of this, or at least see a TextSecure implementation for the desktop.

<comment><USER20> We are also interested in a TextSecure implementation for the desktop!

Right now the protocol includes multi-device support, so the foundation is there for developing desktop and tablet apps that work seamlessly in conjunction with your phone. Our first desktop implementation is likely going to be a browser extension, feel free to jump in and get involved with that if you'd like.

<comment><USER39> How does multi-device implementation work (for the layman).

Are the messages only delivered to the 'logged in' clients? So if I am logged in on the desktop my message exchanges are also sent to the phone client? But any messages I send/receive from my phone while logged out of my desktop are synced through the server on login?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Why will anyone trust something based/developed in the USA related to security? It's a compromised jurisdiction. For anyone creating security products who wants to be credible will need to be based somewhere that respects privacy.

<comment><USER41> Every single US citizen is complicit? Man, I would hate to be this jaded. Some of us are fighting against mass surveillance as hard as we possibly can.

This is as silly as saying that all of the people who live in North Korea are brutal dictators.

<comment><USER42> That's not what xmr claimed; what was said is that the US is a compromised jurisdiction, and of course everyone developing something in the US is subject to that jurisdiction.

It was never implied in xmr's post that every US citizen supports mass surveillance, only that they may be legally forced to participate in it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I belong to a WhatsApp group for common interests. I was about to recommend to everyone to switch over to TextSecure, but then I realized not everyone has an Android. This app would really benefit from a J2ME version like WhatsApp IMO.

</comment><comment><USER44> Did they solve the private contact discovery problem and if yes, how did it go? It sounded really interesting.

</comment><comment><USER45> Way more appealing because of dumping SMS. :)

Also a beautiful UI, and I can't wait for the iOS versions.

Good work, Whisper Systems!

</comment><comment><USER46> Could somebody explain why it was tied to SMS in the first place? And given that, why it's trying to undo its connection to SMS?

Separately, what's the difference between this and OTR? Is it just trying to just be a better OTR (and I support this endeavor, competing OTR connections over one chat channel creates a hassle). And as such, why is it only on Android, you could just as well write a Pidgin plugin right?

<comment><USER19> This article should explain why it's better than OTR:

[https://whispersystems.org/blog/advanced- ratcheting/](https://whispersystems.org/blog/advanced-ratcheting/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The TextSecure server is AGPL. Take that Telegram!

<comment><USER21> That very well might be the case, but you cannot host it yourself it seems (as stated elsewhere in this thread, federation really isn't supported).

So you have to hope that the server you're talking to hosts the code that you're looking at.

Do I think Moxie etc are evil? Not necessarily. But the open source server doesn't help _me_ one bit here, unfortunately.

<comment><USER37> > So you have to hope that the server you're talking to hosts the code that > you're looking at.

What could a malicious server do?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Great inspiration from Google Hangouts on integration of SMS and non-SMS, visual design, and even the icon. Exciting release!

<comment><USER49> Hangout eating SMS was really nasty. And trivial to enable, too. :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> How does it compare with Telegram ([https://telegram.org](https://telegram.org))?

</comment><comment><USER51> I have been able to compile it myself, so I could install it on my tablet.

You can register an Account using any phone number. Just wait until the SMS verification fails, you then have the option to request an automated call, and get a verification code that way.

So far it seems like it's working.

</comment><comment><USER52> As far as I can tell Telegram doesn't have end-to-end encrypted group chat. This looks really good!

</comment><comment><USER53> I installed this and the calling app Redphone. Installation and integration was quick and seamless, they simply replace the default text/calling applications and have a much better design anyway.

I'm wondering, why NOT use this over the default applications?

</comment><comment><USER54> As soon as the iOS version is out, everyone in this forum should advertise and really /push/ this to all their friends via FB, twitter, PM -- whatever.

Or just by plain asking them to install it, next time you bump into them in meatspace.

Even better: throw a crypto party.

<comment><USER55> For those of us with a high number of Android users in their circle, we should probably try to advertise sooner, so we can (potentially) make use of the inertia.

<comment><USER56> Or since most people who did switch after the WhatsApp announcement already switched to Telegram or Threema and are not very likely to switch again, push these vendors to improve (Telegram) or open (Threema) their architectures.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> > Does the padlock mean our messages are already encrypted?

If so, why is the padlock open? :)

<comment><USER58> The chat is referring to the padlock icons on messages, which are closed.

The open padlock in the notification bar means that your passphrase is currently cached and anyone that picks up your phone can read your text secure messages. How frequently your phassphrase gets flushed and must be re-entered is a user setting.

<comment><USER59> Theres some irony in your mentioning having to reenter passphrases and your username being "forgottenpass" :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Based on the old adage that 'if you aren't paying for it, you're the product', where do I find the pricing model for TextSecure?

Are there plans to charge? If so, how much and when? If not, why is it free?

</comment><comment><USER61> Damn. I wish this was native on the blackberry. I could emulate it, but SMS support wouldn't work - and I am not sure if emulating a secure system really is the way to go.

<comment><USER62> Totally, really wish BlackBerry could have an app like this. At least the new iMessage like part would be possible.

<comment><USER63> I am going to test it on BlackBerry 10 anyway. Should make at least a good WhatsApp replacement.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The biggest weakness of this kind of app is it still exposes lots of interesting data for traffic analysis. It's a huge improvement over what we have today, but I'd really like something where you can't see who is talking with whom (when, how frequently, etc.), as well as can't read the content.

Unfortunately doing this with mobile is _really_ hard, due to bandwidth and power. agl's Pond is probably the best effort in the space so far.

<comment><USER64> > exposes lots of interesting data

[[citation needed]]

Is there an in-depth analysis of what data is exposed with the current protocol?

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> This is extremely cool. One there is a desktop version, Pidgin or Web I won't stop until everyone switched over. :)

</comment><comment><USER66> Multi-platform support is top priority for any messenger app today. This is my personal experience from working on an enterprise messenger recently. [http://peer.im](http://peer.im)

<comment><USER67> This looks exciting. When can I try it?

<comment><USER66> Let me know your @ address. I will send an invite to you after our new UI is online (~1 or 2 weeks).

<comment><USER67> Signed up for an invite on your site; looking forward to it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Where can I read how they do that? Some protocol explanation please!

<comment><USER19> There are some links in the article. Granted you could've easily missed them since the color is some washed out grey. Moxie should consider making the links a more visible color.

<comment><USER68> Thanks. Now I tried to follow the links and I still don't understand how they managed to achieve that "The new TextSecure protocol doesn't require a round trip key exchange process."

I'd still like to know how actually their solution protects from MITM.

<comment><USER41> You can read about the key exchange here. "Prekeys" are an extremely clever idea: [https://whispersystems.org/blog/asynchronous- security/](https://whispersystems.org/blog/asynchronous-security/)

Fingerprint verification protects against MITM attacks. The application provides a nice interface where two users can scan a QR code to easily compare fingerprints. A hexadecimal fingerprint is also readily accessible.

<comment><USER68> It looks that the prekeys are stored on a server. How is the existence of the prekeys on the server (which can be compromised) not an issue?

<comment><USER69> Prekeys are prerecorded responses to connection initiation: in the alternative world with no prekeys this is what you'd get when you've opened a connection.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> Buckle up for a n00b query: is this going to be pushed as an update, or do i need to un-install/re-install?

<comment><USER33> It's a simple update.

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> Will the iOS version require a jailbreak? Not sure how it can seamlessly handle plain SMS/MMS otherwise.

</comment><comment><USER72> This update broke my working TextSecure this morning. Couldn't access my messages. Had to reinstall. :(

</comment><comment><USER73> Thank you for your hard work on this! \--- The sms fallback option is greyed out for me. Any clues why?

<comment><USER74> This would be because the app is your default messaging app (Android 4.4+). If you want to remove SMS fallback, you need to set another app to act as your default SMS app.

There is actually an issue on github open about this: [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/639](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/issues/639)

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> Are pull requests encouraged/looked at? Wouldn't mind contributing to such a worthy cause

<comment><USER19> Yes. Read the bottom of the article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> I am confused, why is there so much talk about WhatsApp replacements recently?

<comment><USER48> It's appealing to some to have messaging that doesn't funnel into a major data harvester. Facebook just acquired WhatsApp.

<comment><USER77> Whisper systems is owned by Twitter. I'm not sure how it's privacy record compares to that of Facebook.

<comment><USER74> In this case TextSecure has end-to-end encryption, and supposedly even hides metadata when using the push service (which is hosted on Google Push Framework). Feel free to check the source yourself, or take Moxie's word on it, but I think their "track record" is a bit cleaner overall, regardless of the acquisition of WhisperSystems by Twitter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> Very excited for the iOS version! Will install immediately

</comment><comment><USER79> Doesn't work with Google Voice :(

Just my luck!

</comment><comment><USER80> How does this compare with Hemlis [https://heml.is](https://heml.is)

<comment><USER81> It is released and 100% open source, unlike Hemlis, which is still under development behind closed doors and will be opened "as much as possible" (which tells us nothing about implementations, code quality, privacy features, openness or license).

<comment><USER82> Yeah, I can't see any reason to trust Hemlis.</comment></comment></comment>


A puzzle that tiles infinitely across both sides, based on the Klein Bottle - <AUTHOR> https://n-e-r-v-o-u-s.com/blog/?p=7613 <comment><USER2> Ok, that is one of the best math + lasercutter = art links that I have seen in a while. And the concept of being able to keep moving the puzzle pieces around is pretty cool. There is also a link to upload your own art work and create your own puzzle, which is what I will be doing for this mother's day. Overall, a pretty cool link.

</comment><comment><USER3> this is awesome and reminds me of the tiling puzzle from the book Anathem:

[http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Teglon](http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Teglon)

or

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_tiling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose_tiling)

I would love to have a Penrose tiling puzzle set.

<comment><USER4> I'm at work right now, but give me a day and I will design that.

<comment><USER3> Woah, Thanks! Does the AK in your name stand for Alaska? If so, I'm in Anchorage.

<comment><USER4> No, that's my first initial and last name (A Krumbach).

Anyway, "puzzle" is now available at [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KYDTZ2AVWQfWCSACUvfl5gAIHzA...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KYDTZ2AVWQfWCSACUvfl5gAIHzAWXG7m/view?usp=sharing)

If I counted correctly, you should be able to make a roughly rectangular shape out of the provided pieces. (Even if I miscalculated, I think they make a good exploration toy for the P2 tiling anyway.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've played with one of these puzzles in person. They're incredibly cool but pretty difficult. I worked for 20 minutes and was able to tesselate a single piece into a different position.

I might just be bad at it though. On the other hand, the challenge is part of the appeal to me.

</comment><comment><USER6> So it's many (more than I want to admit :-) years since my Euclidean and Non- Euclidian Geometry class, but isn't this a cross-cap, not a Klein bottle?

<comment><USER7> No cross-caps here. The first puzzle is a torus, the second a Klein bottle. Informally: the Klein bottle has on pair of edges is glued with a twist and one without; with the cross-cap, both pairs of edges are twisted then glued.

<comment><USER6> Thanks for the reminder.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The soundtrack appears to be these NASA space recordings that were released in the 80s. They translated probe data into audible frequencies and released them as a CD box set.

</comment><comment><USER9> How does one map an existing locally-similar pseudorandom pattern like the galaxy image onto a torus, Klein Bottle, or other closed shape? I know that with a generated pattern (e.g. Perlin noise) you automatically get that by taking the value of the noise function at the surface coordinates, but I have no clue about using existing planar images.

</comment><comment><USER10> Very interesting! With those curved borders however, it's going to be pretty hard to find where each piece fits :)

</comment><comment><USER11> Could someone who understands the topology of this more fully say - if I had a set of two or more of these, could I solve each separately and put the solved puzzles together into a larger pattern?

<comment><USER3> from the article:

> Multiple infinity puzzles can be combined to create a larger continuous > puzzle. The image above shows some of the creative combinations possible > with two infinity puzzles of different colors ($75, for two).

here is the image from the quote: [https://i2.wp.com/n-e-r-v-o- u-s.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/...](https://i2.wp.com/n-e-r-v-o- u-s.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/infinity.png?resize=750%2C290&ssl=1)

<comment><USER11> Sorry! I should've both read and expressed myself more carefully. I meant the Klein bottle topology, not the torus.

EDIT: FWIW torus puzzles are definitely not a new thing - I had this one as a kid: [http://img.tradera.net/images/096/270662096_95a37033-d8f9-4c...](http://img.tradera.net/images/096/270662096_95a37033-d8f9-4c3a-b874-37ab02db6e34.jpg)

<comment><USER12> Nice! I haven't seen these before. There's also a brand of puzzles called Schmuzzles that are based on an escher lizard and tile. I would say the difference between these and our torus-based puzzles is that they employ a tessellation cut with repetitive piece shapes such that the image is guiding the construction (as all pieces fit in all places). In our puzzles, each piece only goes one place as they each have a unique shape. Our Klein Bottle and Cross-cap puzzles is are a new idea (to the best of my knowledge).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This would be even more awesome if the puzzle pieces were curved, so they'd form a Klein bottle when put together.

<comment><USER14> That would be INCREDIBLY awesome, considering that it would require pieces that have a curve in to the 4th dimension (or perhaps just pieces that could pass through each other). A Klein bottle is a 2-dimensional surface cannot be embedded in a 3-dimensional space without crossing.

<comment><USER13> While this is true mathematically, there is at least one project that emulates Klein bottles in 3D quite credibly:

[http://www.kleinbottle.com](http://www.kleinbottle.com)

Edit: You can even put in some liquid (the "hose" continues through the crossing). The fun part is getting it out again :)

<comment><USER14> There are lots of projects that do this (implement a Klein bottle with a crossing).

<comment><USER15> Even my dad has knit several Klein bottle hats for fun, inspired by one of those projects. I got one as a Christmas present.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The coolest part is if you put a few them together you open a non-orientable wormhole and pass into an Alice Universe.

</comment><comment><USER17> I want to see a jigsaw puzzle that results in a mobius strip.

<comment><USER18> Well you're looking at it. If you think of the puzzle only tiling in one direction, the flip needed to move the piece from one side to the other is analogous to the twist in the Möbius strip. Because it works in two dimensions, you have a Klein bottle, much the same way a looping plane is isomorphic to a torus.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I don't see how this is based on a Klein Bottle.

<comment><USER20> If you imagine the surface that is formed when every possible connection between pieces is made simultaneously, that surface is a Klein bottle. Obviously, making all the connections simultaneously is not possible in 3 dimensions, without allowing the pieces to deform and intersect each other.

<comment><USER19> Does that property imply a Klein bottle? I was not aware they were synonymous.

<comment><USER21> A Klein bottle can be defined topologically as a Mobius strip that's connected on both axes. So if the left side is connected to the right side with a mirror twist, and the top is connected to the bottom with a mirror twist, it's topologically a Klein bottle.

<comment><USER19> okay, I'm just not seeing how a puzzle with pieces that can be placed on the other side meets that property. The pieces would have to be elastic, and if the pieces are allowed to change shape, it's not really a puzzle anymore.

<comment><USER20> That's why I wrote that you have to _imagine_ the surface formed by making every possible connection simultaneously. The point is that the "completed" puzzle is topologically a Klein bottle. It can't be completely constructed in 3 dimensions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> A puzzle like this will drive someone with serious OCD nuts. :)

</comment><comment><USER23> (2016)

</comment><comment><USER24> I can buy a 1000 piece puzzle for $5 at walmart. Sure it's not nearly as cool as this but 236 pieces for $120? That's outrageous. I'd rather just have my money, thanks.

<comment><USER25> I can buy a 1000 piece chicken McNuggets for $5 at McDonalds. Sure it's not nearly as cool as a fresh local meal from a nice restaurant, but dinner for 2 for $120? That's outrageous. I'd rather just have my money, thanks.

<comment><USER24> Agreed? I mean, I think my comment makes it clear this way too expensive premium market isn't really the demographic that I fit into, though I know you're trying to prove a point.

I do find it a little annoying that the internet has made it common to price based on the people who will pay the most for things. It is still just cardboard. Just because it's an interesting idea doesn't necessarily make 236 pieces of cardboard worth $120.

To counter your point, this is like paying $120 for chick-fil-a nuggets instead of $5 for McDonald's nuggets. It's still just cardboard. It's slightly better made cardboard with maybe a little extra care, but it's just cardboard.

<comment><USER25> To counter your point, it is not just cardboard. It is laser cut wood. A far more expensive material, and manufacturing process.

<comment><USER26> They appear to be hand-made. Manufacturing niche toys is very much a chicken and egg problem. At scale, these could be made for $1. But that implies volume sales which would likely result in a bunch of people complaining that the puzzles were "broken" and "some idiot left out all the edge pieces -- 0 stars!"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Would some enterprising HN'er please manufacture these? My wife would love this.

<comment><USER5> They're available on the same site as the article: [https://n-e-r-v-o- u-s.com/shop/line.php?code=12](https://n-e-r-v-o- u-s.com/shop/line.php?code=12)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Solid MEH, we bought my mom a jigsaw puzzle with no edges and the image (kittens) flipped on the opposite side in like... 94?</comment>


Ask HN: Moving as Software Engineer from Europe to Silicon Valley - <AUTHOR> I have a CS degree from a small unknown university in Europe. I want to move to Silicon Valley. Does it make sense to do an Msc at Georgia Tech to get accepted by top engineering firms or should I put my time into leetcode?<p>Thanks very much! <comment><USER2> You could also try the interview process locally in EU, then get transferred. There are a lot of SV companies with global presence.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great idea thank you :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I would look at it in terms of what will help you get a visa. Is it more school or actually just getting yourself hired and visa sponsorship. If you have the degree plus industry experience then I'm betting you can get a company to sponsor you.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's more school and getting hired in FAANG or other big tech startups =)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Probably so. You will get to network a LOT in the OMSCS -- group work and most of us post our linkedin and are glad to help people find work.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your answer. Can you recommend the OMSCS? Are you currently enrolled in the program?

<comment><USER4> I'm in the program. It is very difficult, at times unnecessarily so. One course per semester is pretty much all I can handle while working full time.

It is a good program, the course material is well done, but the courses are run entirely by TAs with rare exception.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks very much :-)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How Coca-Cola Undermines Plastic Recycling Efforts - <AUTHOR> https://theintercept.com/2019/10/18/coca-cola-recycling-plastics-pollution/ <comment><USER2> The irony is that packaged goods companies generally promote and love recycling because it distracts from reducing, as in reduce, reuse, recycle. Getting people to think recycling helps, rather than mildly mitigates pollution, keeps their sales up.

Since their products are nearly all unhealthy and all pollute, "reduce" suggests we all benefit from no one buying their products at all. If they thought about how environmental concerns will affect them, they'd promote recycling wholeheartedly, not half.

<comment><USER3> It's sad when these packagers/bottlers like Coca-Cola used glass there was a great recycle program built into it. Very sad that this faded away as they changed to plastic.

<comment><USER4> Glass causes a massive amount of pollution via breakage and product loss, injury, and more carbon use because of its higher weight.

<comment><USER3> Are their studies that compare glass bottle reuse to plastic bottles? Since a glass bottle just needs to be cleaned for reuse, I naively think it has less of a footprint then the plastic extraction, processing and recycling chain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Quick google shows that recycle rate is ~30% for PET bottles in US in 2015 [0]. Not obvious if the problem is that customers not returning/recycling bottles or that garbage just gets landfilled.

Compare that to Nordics, where Norway achieved 95.4% return rate of PET bottles (~0.3 USD return cash-back), and Sweden 84% (~0.15 USD return) [1]. Most countries in EU have landfill ban [2], so most of waste is either burned or recycled. Diverting bottles/cans to return scheme solves garbage sorting problem, which makes it possible to process/recycle 100% of it just by improving recycling facilities.

In my personal opinion, closed loop systems (full ban on landfills) are better for everyone, but require deep systematic changes, potentially using "dirty" psychological tricks, to get done what's really needed. Adding deposits may sound negative from NIMBY/corporate, but it leverages human psychological on last mile (where garbage sorting is easiest) and from empirical evidence achieves what needs to be done.

\- [0] [https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials- waste-...](https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-and- recycling/plastics-material-specific-data) \- [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container- deposit_legislation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container- deposit_legislation) \- [2] [http://www.cewep.eu/wp- content/uploads/2017/12/Landfill-taxe...](http://www.cewep.eu/wp- content/uploads/2017/12/Landfill-taxes-and-bans-overview.pdf)

<comment><USER6> Not sure how it panned out elsewhere, but we used to have newspaper, magazine, and aluminum can, recycling bins in school parking lots. They got moved of course after all the "predator" laws but even after being moved most were abandoned as people used them for general trash; as in they did not want to pay for services or take to dump on their own their regular trash.

Just slapping recycle costs on all three forms of drink containers should be sufficient to boost return to proper places. I remember bottle deposits doing well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> They're consistent then.

Keep America Beautiful was formed in reaction to proposed 1953 Vermont legislation to require deposits on bottles. American Can Company, Pepsi, Coke, Budweiser, Philip Morris and others figured out, funded and launched the group. Neatly framing their new externality as solely a fault with their customers.

Interestingly Coke and others are complaining in the UK that rules to require 30% recycled plastic are too onerous, and have caused the cost of recycled plastic to rise.

<comment><USER8> This was well covered in the NPR podcast Throughline:

[https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/757539617/the-litter- myth](https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/757539617/the-litter-myth)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Reading this makes me angry, and reminds me that there is an already incredibly (and increasingly) lucrative market for repurposing post-consumer plastics as material for modern industrial (and home-based post-industrial) 3d print manufacture. Good food-grade filament is expensive, but with a bit of work you can easily repurpose and re-extrude food-grade plastic for new work. Similar stories exist for PLA and ABS, especially in industrial settings where machines are designed to work with less pure stock. Maybe that should be my next business...

My other question is, when do we start seeing these corporations as unaccountable extra-legal entities who are in a very real sense an enemy of future generations of humans and their prosperity? If we do come to that conclusion, what is the appropriate physical response? Do we begin to protest their plants as aggressively as US citizens protest ICE administration and/or incarceration facilities?

<comment><USER10> Do you actually think there is a 3D printer market big enough to handle all the plastics that are in drink bottles and such? I bet it isn't even 1/10000 of the actual waste.

<comment><USER9> No, not now.

In the future, yes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm looking for HN to provide me some perspective outside of my little bubble here.

I've only ever lived in states that have had bottle deposits. I've been feeding these cans/bottles back into the redemption machines since I was a kid. I can genuinely stay that I've recycled nearly every eligible container I've ever used.

However for most of my adult live I've also had recycling available at curbside - including cans/bottles. It was originally paper, glass and metal separated, but has since gone single stream.

We recycle everything we can that is eligible, but I don't put cans/bottles in there because I'd lose the deposit. I wish the deposit was gone so that I could put these items in there and gain this little efficiency in life.

At the same time I see these studies where the data clearly shows the deposit has a significantly higher effective recycling rate. I'm struggling to understand this. Do the places without deposits also not have curbside single stream recycling that processes these containers?

Can someone with experience in a location with no deposit but with curbside single stream recycling available for these items explain why people aren't recycling them there?

Is really as simple as "people won't put things into a different trash receptacle in their home"?

<comment><USER12> Bottle/can deposits predated curbside recycling, and vestigial regulations don't just disappear. Some large liquor stores specialize in making returning cans as easy as possible, to attract business from alcoholics.

FWIW have you done the math on the actual money you get back, divided by the time spent managing an extra waste stream? Unless you're a heavy bottle user, I personally don't see how it makes sense to not just ignore the deposit and recycle via modern means.

<comment><USER13> > I personally don't see how it makes sense to not just ignore the deposit and > recycle via modern means.

There's a psychological effect. For example, the grocery store charges 5 cents per bag. If I forget to bring bags with me to the store, it irks me that I have to pay 5 cents, even though the amount is trivial and completely non- substantive.

<comment><USER12> But do you travel back home to retrieve your own bags?

<comment><USER14> When I leave my backpack at home and realize I need to visit the grocery store I do make a detour home first, and then move on to the store just to avoid getting plastic bags. It adds maybe extra 15 minutes but I feel it's worth it. I do shopping on foot though, so no need to burn extra gas to do that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > Several months ago, Coke came out in support of a bottle deposit program in > Australia.

Guess who "co-ordinates" the bottle return scheme in New South Wales (where the linked article references)? It's a joint venture of which Coca-Cola Amatil (CCA - the Australian distributor), is a key stakeholder.

So they basically control what is an acceptable bottle, what the price you must pay for that is, etc. and charge for producer certification, etc. It's put the squeeze on a lot of smaller craft beer and beverage producers, as the costs to implement have been pushed on to them.

Oh and in Australia it's illegal for the brewers to re-use glass bottles, irrespective of their prior use or treatment :-(

[1] [https://returnandearn.org.au/about-return-and- earn/](https://returnandearn.org.au/about-return-and-earn/)

</comment><comment><USER16> If anything the sheer amount of soda pop people drink is concerning. The plastic waste is due to the chosen diets of consumers.

When I was a kid in late 70s early 80s my family of four shared one 750ml bottle of pop (and one bag of chips) on Friday night. Now a 600ml is a single serving of pop and many people drink pop with every meal.

<comment><USER17> > The plastic waste is due to the chosen diets of consumers.

They're not chosen though, they are the result of billions of dollars spent on advertising.

<comment><USER18> And yet many choose to abstain. The advertising is a problem and should be banned, but that's not reason to dehumanize consumers by denying their agency. People _do_ have a choice and they should be reminded of that at every opportunity.

<comment><USER13> I drank a lot of coke until about 10 years ago, when I stopped. The first year was difficult, after that I was not tempted anymore. The advertising has no effect on me.

I have drunk a couple cans since, but didn't particularly care for the sticky, syrupy taste, and did not resume the habit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> We should bring this up with Warren Buffet, isn't he one of the main investors in Coca Cola?

Warren Buffet likes to pretend he is great but we should clearly associate his personal fortune with the plastic pollution that Coca Cola produces in mass.

</comment><comment><USER20> In the UK there is a tax on sugary drinks so people pay more which is a good thing. Just shows if this tax is adopted how much of a nuisance certain companies are for the health and environment

<comment><USER21> Those sorts of sin taxes are the poster child for dumbly implemented tax policy. Tax the waste and pollution, or obesity and other health impacts that cause societal externalities. There's nothing wrong with drinking sugary water in moderation.

<comment><USER22> Not in countries with partially or fully-socialized healthcare.

If drinking litres of cola causes diseases that the public purse has to support, then pay more for the cola.

<comment><USER23> Just deny care to those who drink soda or do other unhealthy things.

<comment> Al-Khwarizmi Difficult to implement, how do you know if a given person is obese due to soda or to, e.g., genetics?

And even if it could be implemented, it's still not the point of universal healthcare. In most European countries we'd rather take care of everyone, even those who are guilty of their own health problems.

For example, and even from an egoistic point of view and leaving ethics aside, I'd rather have drug addicts treated and sheltered with my tax money than having to encounter dozens of them, homeless and stinking from bad hygiene, every time I walk the street, as I have seen in many US cities.

<comment><USER4> Because 99.999% of people are going to be because of soda.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> One of the hurdles of effectively recouping the California Redemption Value deposit is that the would-be recycler has to take them to a smelly location far away from place of purchase and endure the inconvenience of waiting in line and dealing with unwritten rules and other customers.

I remember being in some East Coast state, I think it was Maine, where I could return beverage containers at same store where I bought the drinks. That's convenient. Going to a recycling facility to get 5 cents back per container is not. My fuel cost would be higher than the value of returned deposit.

I recycled cans a few times. It's convoluted. The rate per can is in practice disregarded and it would actually be lower at about $1.43/lb than the $1.63/lb that could be paid out today by weight. The centers pay a rate per pound. However, they can pay either the CRV rate per pound or the scrap metal rate. Most infrequent recyclers would have no idea these are options.

"How much do recycling centers _pay per pound for cans and bottles_? Currently, state certified recycling centers pay a minimum of _$1.63 CRV for aluminum cans; $1.26 CRV for clear PET plastic bottles; $0.60 CRV for HDPE plastic bottles (similar to the large water jugs); and $0.10 CRV for glass bottles. These CRV per pound rates are periodically adjusted_ , with new rates taking effect January 1 and July 1. _In addition to the CRV, recyclers may also pay a scrap value, which may also fluctuate._

Can recycling centers pay less than the refund value for redeemed containers? Yes, if the material is contaminated. Operators of certified recycling centers must inspect each load of containers to determine whether it is eligible for CRV. Recycling centers have the option to refuse to accept containers which, in their opinion, are excessively contaminated with dirt, moisture, or other foreign substances. Alternatively, _recycling centers may adjust downward the CRV per pound used to calculate the payment by the ratio of such substances to empty beverage containers_. In this circumstance, the consumer has the right to accept the discounted refund and/or scrap price, to separate refund from nonrefund material, or to take the material back."

<comment><USER25> The state of Michigan does this; you can return the bottles at the store you bought them from using automated can return systems. I haul in a bag every couple of months and get a coupon code that I can either turn into cash or use on my in-store purchase. Its really slick.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> In Pakistan in 1990s, Coca-Cola and Pepsi would give out glass bottles and set up efforts to recover them, Offering discounts if they did. Plastic bottles are now the new norm unfortunately.

</comment><comment><USER27> Coca-Cola is an almost wholly evil company. By 'evil' I mean they poison people's quality of life and harm the environment and they do it _knowingly_. They are in exactly the same category as tobacco companies.

</comment><comment><USER28> 2 annoying things that Coke has done:

1) their hourglass bottles use more plastic per 2L bottle than other 2L bottles

2) They reduced their 591mL bottles to 500. Ugh.

<comment><USER29> Was the 591mL bottle a single portion? That seems huge... The half liter is already a bit too much for me.

<comment><USER28> Resealable cap. Up to the buyer as for how quickly they want to drink it.

<comment><USER30> Doesn't it go flat quickly?

<comment><USER28> If you put the other half in the fridge and drink within a few days, no.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> plastic and aluminum litter, xenoestrogens, reservoir depletion, diabetes, obesity, tooth decay...

if only I could figure out a scalable way to punch people in the face, give them the herp, and charge for it? instant billionaire!

<comment><USER32> Upvoted you because, despite _le_ snark, I think you're making a really good point: Soda is fucking nuts.

Seriously, "pop" et. al. is "Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy" level farce.

There are places where it's easier to get Coke than potable water.

"If sugar had been discovered recently instead of in antiquity it would be a _controlled substance_ instead of being _half_ our kids' meals."

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> TL;DR: By opposing laws that require a deposit on plastic bottles.

</comment><comment><USER34> can someone give me a good argument for not using glass

<comment><USER35> 1\. It's heavy. In fact it's so heavy that it's sometimes (mostly? don't have a source at hand) more environment-friendly to reuse plastic bottles than driving all that weight around. Obviously, the weight also makes it inconvenient, e.g. if you don't have a car you have to put that on your bicycle and/or lift it to the next public transit station.

2\. It can break more easily. If it breaks, you can cut yourself on it. You can also cut others which is why those bottles are prohibited at some places with security controls or some workplaces.

<comment><USER10> I don't think I'd work at a place where they think that my glass bottle is a deadly weapon. That sounds like a bad place to work.

<comment><USER35> The reason glass bottles are prohibited at some workplaces are mostly because of situations in factories(or similar) where you let your bottle fall to the ground and the glass can hurt others unintentionally, disrupting the work, (maybe also insurance, I don't know), etc. It's just to prevent workplace injuries.

I could have made that clearer in my sentence, sorry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Bottle deposits make me markedly less likely to recycle. Without them, it's a small amount of energy to bring the bottles back home to recycle, so I can pretend that I'm not generating waste. With deposits, I trash those and typically trash the ones at my house, because otherwise I'm providing a monetary incentive for homeless people to come to my house and root through my bins.

</comment><comment><USER37> Coke is fighting legislation that would make their product more expensive? You don't say!

<comment><USER38> deposit != more expensive.

same rule would apply to their competitors.

<comment><USER39> From the article:

>a bottle bill or container deposit law, which requires beverage companies to tack a charge onto the price of their drink to be refunded after it's returned

So, yeah, it'd make their product more expensive at the time of purchase.

But "soda companies oppose recycling" is more sensational than "soda companies oppose adding a fee to the cost of their products".

<comment><USER7> Deposit and return has been the standard way of achieving _working_ reuse and recycling, pretty much forever. A century ago including Coca-Cola and all the milk, pop and beer bottlers. Just about everything that wants something back puts a deposit on it - otherwise people have no incentive to bother.

So the question becomes _why_ do they oppose a fee that is _unlikely to hurt overall sales?_ Ah, because they would have to do something with those returned bottles...

<comment><USER40> > because they would have to do something with those returned bottles...

No they don't. Here in Norway the bottles are compacted in the back of the reverse vending machine (usually from Tomra: [https://www.tomra.com/nb- no/collection/reverse-vending](https://www.tomra.com/nb-no/collection/reverse- vending)) and sent directly to recycling. Bottles from all the different suppliers go together, none of them go back to the manufacturer of the content. And Coca-Cola has a deposit on bottles here and it is an entirely non-controversial idea.

<comment><USER7> Well have to do something in the sense of use some proportion of the recycled plastic. They have been consistent in briefing against deposit and reuse, and recycling, despite using millions of tons of plastic a year.

Moving to the system presently in Norway, and Germany I believe would be a huge step in the right direction. Sadly most governments appear afraid or unable to actually put accountability on corporations. Personally I'd require them to go back to deposit and reuse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Misleading title.

Coca-Cola pushing back on a bill that would increase their overhead, increase the cost of their product, and decrease sales is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to label as "Undermining Plastic Recycling Efforts". Especially when they do things to push for the recycling efforts in other ways.

That's not to say bottle deposits wouldn't be a great system, regardless of how it hurts Coca-Cola's bottle line - I just can't abide by such egregious dishonesty. I've taken to referring to such over generalization of titles "the news cycle Simpson's Paradox." Its masking material details by over generalizing or over abstracting them away.

<comment><USER12> Bottle deposits are a terrible system. Store bags full of half-sugary cans (or use much more water rinsing them out beyond a doubt), and foul your hands up before getting groceries (or spend gas on a separate trip), all to effectively recover less than minimum wage? Unless you're drinking some enormous amount of soda or beer, you're better off viewing it as simply another 5 cent tax, and putting them in the standard municipal recycling.

<comment><USER40> Here in Norway the deposit is closer to USD 0.50 than USD 0.05. I just keep a bag for returnable cans and bottles and all the shops where I return them have disposable wipes so that you can clean your hands after returning the cans and bottles. I don't use any water to rinse out the cans. We just return the bottles and cans about once or twice a month, perhaps a little more often around Christmas.

<comment><USER12> How do you deal with the bags leaking whatever drips out of the cans, now that you're in the trash hauling business without the standard equipment? Do you have stores that won't take back brands they do not themselves sell, meaning you've got multiple categories of sorting/storing?

10x the deposit would certainly change my personal utilitarian calculation. Which IMHO is a common pattern of failure in the US - only small amounts at stake, a system that sucks because most people just ignore it, and then opposition to making that sucky system more prominent (as my comment was arguing). My viewpoint with respect to cans is probably how large companies perceive dumping waste in a river - the fine is only a $300k line item several years down the road, not worth worrying about!

The sustainability problem that we're facing is much more general, rather than focusing on bespoke solutions for individual categories. A "deposit" is basically just an attempt to price resource depletion into the consumption side, rather than the supply side. IMO it makes sense to move the accounting to the supply side instead of attempting to assign a specific negative cost to every category of good that we don't want incinerated. Tax virgin materials to properly price in the externality of resource depletion, as opposed to increasing deposits to putative levels. If using recycled materials is incentivized enough, it will even start to make sense to pull stuff like aluminum out of the garbage stream.

(PS I've got to wonder whether USians downvoting me even actually return their own bottles for the deposit, or consider it someone else's problem and enjoy having an underclass to salvage recyclables from the unenlightened. I can't imagine many people with tech level salaries care about the nickels.)

<comment><USER7> Personally I would like both - hit the supply side with tax to ensure _all_ the packaging's hidden costs are on the producer, and a deposit to reduce the amount lost.

I have a habit to take enough bags to the supermarket when shopping, yet I can easily afford the few pennies a new plastic bag costs. My parents had the habit to take items with a deposit - mostly drinks bottles. They didn't need the few coins either.

Considering an old glass pop or milk bottle went round the system 50 or more times, once strikes me as unsustainable madness. As the manufacturer carries none of the consequences, they have incentives to ensure we don't improve. No wonder they consistently lobby against deposit and reuse or recycling schemes.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Snake in a QR Code - <AUTHOR> https://itsmattkc.com/etc/snakeqr/ <comment><USER2> If you want to see a variation of this concept in the wild, in active use by lots of people, check out PICO-8 cartidges.

PICO-8 is a virtual game console. I.e. it's an emulator for an oldschool game console that doesn't exist in reality. It's designed to be easy to code for while maintaining the limits and aesthetics of old game computers

PICO-8 games are, of course, distributed on cartridges. However because it's a virtual console, the cartridges are virtual too: they're PNG files.

Try browsing PICO-8 games here: [https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?sub=2&cat=7](https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?sub=2&cat=7)

Press the play button the play a game right inside the web browser, but be sure to click the little "Cart" link right below the playing area to see what's going on. You'll see it open a little PNG file.

That PNG file _is_ the cartridge. It contains the entire game.

The file format is explained here: [https://pico-8.fandom.com/wiki/P8PNGFileFormat](https://pico-8.fandom.com/wiki/P8PNGFileFormat). Obviously, because PICO-8 carts are purely digital, the format doesn't need any of the contrast, the error correction features or the orientation markers that QR-codes have. You can't take a picture of a cart with your phone and play it. You need the exact same, byte-for-byte PNG file. But it's still super cool.

<comment><USER3> This is the coolest thing in ages. The game's code is steganographically embedded in a PNG image containing the screenshot of the game! Wow

<comment><USER4> Steganography is cooler for sure, but can't PNGs already store arbitrary data in the header? IIRC, the game Spore did that so you can exchange creatures by sending images.

<comment><USER5> I think the issue with that is that many image hosting sites optimize their images or at the least strip unnecessary data and EXIFs.

So at any point while being copied from person to person, that game data could be lost.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Cool, so all the 1k demos/intros from Assembly ([https://archive.assembly.org/2019/1k-intro](https://archive.assembly.org/2019/1k-intro)) could also be distributed via QR code... the 4k intros unfortunately not. Maybe it's time for a new category ;)

<comment><USER7> Or a QR-code paging system.

(I feel a little evil for even suggesting that)

<comment><USER8> The most interesting applications I've seen of QR-codes have been the most wildly impractical or useless.

When I still used my Pebble watch, my favorite watch face was just a QR-code of the time. So to tell what time it is, you have to scan your watch with your phone.

<comment><USER7> I love that idea. I couldn't resist mocking one up in Python:

[https://pastebin.com/erFSAUvH](https://pastebin.com/erFSAUvH)

<comment><USER8> I love that it updates every second. It makes it that much harder to actually use.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wonder if _snake_ could fit in a data uri, like this:

[https://bytex64.net/code/datasnake/](https://bytex64.net/code/datasnake/)

<comment><USER10> that is amazing

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I crossed my eyes and stared for ages, still could not see the snake, I hate these magic eye things

</comment><comment><USER12> Here's another Snake game that can fit in a QR code, this one written in C#: [https://twitter.com/MStrehovsky/status/1214955696556515331](https://twitter.com/MStrehovsky/status/1214955696556515331)

(It doesn't need a .NET runtime; it's fully self-contained and runs on Windows as a native app.)

</comment><comment><USER13> I wish more QR-scanners supported data URLs. I think it would be very cool to distribute tiny web-apps via QR code.

<comment><USER14> Yeah, let's make it even easier for people to run random executables that cannot be vetted, preferably on devices tightly coupled to their identities. What could go wrong?

<comment><USER4> Smartphones are locked down pretty tightly, so I'm not sure how much could actually go wrong compared to what can go wrong with regular apps anway.

<comment><USER15> Well regular apps are vetted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Don't worry. There is no malicious code contained within this QR code!

<comment><USER17> That's what I thought about as soon as I read this. Seems like a great malware installation vector.

Just print out stickers and put them up at restaurants, stores...

<comment><USER18> For which 99.99999% of users will be using mobile clients to scan the QR code that have no capability of executing the code...

<comment><USER19> Yes, embedding a Windows app is essentially pointless for mobile users, but there are many other delivery vectors available from QR codes.

There are some interesting approaches listed at [https://news.sophos.com/en- us/2019/10/17/beware-the-square-h...](https://news.sophos.com/en- us/2019/10/17/beware-the-square-how-to-spot-malicious-qr-codes/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Too bad virtually no one will flash it using a Windows device.

</comment><comment><USER21> Might be interesting to print this on business cards and distribute at conventions or something like that.

<comment><USER22> "Please run this binary from my business card". I guess it's easier than leaving USB drives in the parking lot...

<comment><USER23> You could run it in a VM.

<comment><USER19> YOU could perhaps, but your average target hasn't much of a clue what a VM is, let alone how to set one up.

And keep in mind, malicious software is going to be challenging, and there are much more clever ways to use QR codes.

E.g., imagine some store that has QR codes on the product aisles to access information on a product via a URL. I make a fake website that spoofs the legit product page, but offers the user a special "Buy online and save 25%" offer, which of course they are very tempted by due to the steep discount.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> If you want to play snake in Excel, you can do that too!

[https://aaronfrancis.com/2013/remaking-cellphone-snake-in- mi...](https://aaronfrancis.com/2013/remaking-cellphone-snake-in-microsoft- excel)

</comment><comment><USER25> I'm still waiting for someone to make an app that encodes and decodes large data into multiple QR codes that are displayed in a moving sequence.

That would be the best way to transfer files in physical locations.

<comment><USER26> Apple has something like this for their new iOS device setup. I don't think it's to encode larger amounts of data, but for security they have this circle that constantly changes shape (see around 0:50 in this video for a demo: [https://youtu.be/iE03ypWD5xs](https://youtu.be/iE03ypWD5xs)). I don't know for sure how it works, but my first thought was a constantly changing QR-like code.

<comment><USER27> Someone asked a very similar question on the apple stack exchange[1]. Apple also filed (at least) two patents on the technology[2][3].

[1]: [https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/301563/what-is- the...](https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/301563/what-is-the- technology-used-in-ios-11-settings-migration-moving-blue-dots-par)

[2]: [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- adv.htm&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=\(235%2F469.CCLS.%20AND%2020150505.PD.\)&OS=ccl/235/469%20and%20isd/5/5/2015&RS=\(CCL/235/469%20AND%20ISD/20150505\))

[3]: [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=\(235%2F469.CCLS.%20AND%2020150505.PD.\)&OS=ccl/235/469%20and%20isd/5/5/2015&RS=\(CCL/235/469%20AND%20ISD/20150505\))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Really cool!

He also made a video about it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExwqNreocpg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExwqNreocpg)

</comment><comment><USER29> It's a cool idea. Here's another one; a Mira fractal generator in SmallBASIC:

[https://smallbasic.github.io/images/screenshots/mira.bas.png](https://smallbasic.github.io/images/screenshots/mira.bas.png)

</comment><comment><USER30> I was looking for the snake in the QR code itself (and found it!) before reading the article

<comment><USER31> Wait, you found a snake? I am confused. Anyways, I too looked for it at first because I expected the game to be visually embedded in the QR code as well. I was a little disappointed that it was not the case. Imagine a game embedded in the QR code that when you load it, either directly is able to reconstruct the QR visual itself, so like some sort of quine [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_\(computing\)) but with the visual QR being considered the "source" kind of in this case and the thing bring output. Or weaker but still cool if the game uses the camera to load a QR and then you play on it.

<comment><USER31> Thinking about it a bit more it could be like the PICO-8 mentioned elsewhere ITT but instead of a PNG the QR fantasy console would work by loading programs from QR and initializing the display with the QR visual itself and then the code from the QR is exectuted and is able to access the "video memory" to read in the starting state and then you can play a game where you consume the QR visuals for example with snake. Probably needs to make the snake colored so that you can tell eatable QR visuals apart from your snake. Other games include Breakout and perhaps Pong. Frogger. Etc etc

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> The HTML5 version converted to a data URL would be a more accessible demo than a windows executable I think, especially if it supported mobile input.

Unfortunately, scanning large QR codes doesn't seem to work too well in practice :(

</comment><comment><USER33> a new vector emerges

<comment><USER34> I was thinking about the same thing! Although the original QR code spec did allow binary payloads[1], smartphones and cameras weren't ubiquitous in mid 90s. But they are now. Transmitting computer virus or malware within the QR code binary payload might just be as easy as pointing your camera lens to the QR code. Since the QR code image is only machine readable not human readable, it would be indistinguishable, neither any digital signature to prevent it from being altered.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#Storage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code#Storage)

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Am I the only one who thought this would be a game with the roaming around inside a QR code?

<comment><USER36> nah, i also thought the same

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Initially I was looking at the QR-code and thinking about punchcards, code golf and javascript, but reading that it contains a Windows executable was a surprise.

</comment><comment><USER38> Am I the only one unwilling to run a non-sandboxed process I found on a tech demo?

<comment><USER39> especially with the included disclaimer

      ...slightly larger than the executable shown in the video because I decided to add a little more functionality</comment></comment>


Google reinstates federated instant messaging - <AUTHOR> http://www.fsf.org/blogs/sysadmin/google-reinstates-federated-instant-messaging <comment><USER2> Kinda old. Not sure what the state of things is now for general Google Talk / Hangouts, but it is the case that if you use Google Apps for Business, the XMPP service still supports full federation.

</comment><comment><USER3> From 2013</comment>