Ask HN: Do you think HN should notify us when someone replies to our thread? - <AUTHOR> And an unseen counter on the orange menu bar? So that we don't have to dig through all our posts to see if there are new replies.<p>What do you think?<p>(When I first started using HN, I thought the count next to my name in the orange bar was unread count. Lol. Later I realized that it was Karma) <comment><USER2> I really like that HN doesn't tell you about replies outright.

That means only people who care enough to check the comments get into long threads.

Other sites I feel like the notices just feed long threads of low effort arguing and mud slinging.

It also means that when people reply to me here beyond one reply, they put some effort into finding out if I responded again.... that's a nice feeling.

<comment><AUTHOR> You have a point. But I'd like to think a bit differently. It's all about convenience, right? If HN had an unseen counter, I think that would be the most used component here.

<comment><USER3> > It's all about convenience, right?

I think quite a few people (myself included) would disagree with that. I think optimizing for convenience is exactly what we _shouldn 't_ do in many cases.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> No. I don't even have my mail program notify me of new email anymore, unless it's from one of three crucial senders.

Notifications are bad for you--especially for pointless trivial stuff like HN comment threads.

Consider the difficulty of checking on old HN threads a feature, which aids in Letting Things Go.

Just my own opinion, of course.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree. 'Push' Notifications can be annoying if not relevant. But what do you think about an unread counter in HN? I can just click that to see if I missed some replies. Reddit has this.

<comment><USER5> I think the "unread" counter still creates that somewhat intrusive and addicting feeling. If I post on HN I don't really sit here refreshing to see if anyone replied. I just kind of come back at the end of my day and see what happened. It also takes a few more clicks to get to comments, threads, etc., especially for older posts and comments so it adds a barrier to that instant dopamine rush.

When I previously used Reddit it felt like I would just sit there refreshing all day waiting until that envelope turned orange...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Use the 'threads' link in the header.

You can also get email notifications here: [http://www.hnreplies.com](http://www.hnreplies.com)

<comment><USER7> never noticed that shortcut!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Please no. Notifications are just there to increase the addictive factor for social media. HN doesn't need to increase MAU or time on site. There's no need for rapid response or a response at all usually. If you feel the need to navel gaze you can easily view the replies through your profile page. This is the last site on the internet that's not trying to hack my brain.

</comment><comment><USER9> Yes! please! At worst it's an option.

Without this all conversations also die as soon as they are off the front page. I read HN through RSS at my leisure, so I come in late. It's generally already too late for me to participate, since no one know I have replied to them or made a comment.

These are amazing conversations! let's give them a chance / choice. to live on more in time

I use [http://www.hnreplies.com](http://www.hnreplies.com) \- but only just was lucky enough to find out about it.

PS - the the people who think inconvenience is a feature. Consider - this way only the first comments actually get conversations, because no one can read / check farther down.

UX through hurdles is generally a very bad approach.

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't check for replies often. So I don't miss not being notified of any either. As others have pointed out, it could make one's time management, distraction management and stress levels worse.

I'd actually request for a better UI to navigate threaded comments instead. I personally can't handle multiple levels of replies on HN like many others seem to be doing here. The interface is terrible to figure out who's replying to what when one reads several comments, comment replies and scrolls down. Add to that the almost microscopic buttons and links to vote and collapse. These are good features to keep me from going deeper into the rabbit hole.

</comment><comment><USER11> I don't want a technical system designed to drag my attention to a website. (so no push notifications, to be clear)

That being said, it would be nice to see "new comments since last login" on my profile page... or something similar.

Edit: There may be a psychological reason not to do this though, because there are certain posts I don't want to think about anymore, and it's nice not knowing anything about them.

So if maybe there is a filter "only show comments on posts made in the past 2 days" or something, then I wouldn't get dragged into old discussions I am happy to leave well enough alone.

</comment><comment><USER12> I already have to turn off most notifications from various apps and sites as it is. I'll pass on that idea.

It's meant to be a minimalist kind of site and it does that well. I'd leave it as it is.

</comment><comment><USER13> Maybe (as a matter of fact _surely_ ) a notifier is "too much".

But if an user (voluntarily/actively) can go to a page and in it there is info on:

1) replies on own thread

2) replies to own comments

3) total number of replies on threads user posted a comment to

It would IMHO not be anymore a nuisance/interruption (like notifications are) but rather a resource.

</comment><comment><USER14> No.

The last thing this forum needs is more back-and-forth bickering. Sometimes gotta let other people into the conversation and take the stage.

Forgetting to check to see if someone responded to you is a critical part of HN. I just don't think every response needs a retort from OP.

</comment><comment><USER15> Hmm...Yes. But every time a reply is made? No! Only when there are new unreads since the last time I read the replies.

And make sure this can be turned off in settings.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes. Exactly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I like the idea of an unseen counter for messages that are direct replies to my comments.

</comment><comment><USER17> No.

</comment><comment><USER18> Sounds like a SaaS someone can create as an add on.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup. We're creating one :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Yes absolutely

</comment><comment><USER20> +1</comment>


Everyone is making fake, AI-generated porn now - <AUTHOR> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjye8a/reddit-fake-porn-app-daisy-ridley <comment><USER2> Discussed earlier today:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16226495](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16226495)

</comment><comment><USER3> Not too long ago last year, there was a HN submission regarding Australian police bringing down a pedophile forum on the dark web. I made the comment that in the future AI can be used to generate fake inappropriate child pornographic content to lure out the perpetrators, so that the agents don't have to feel guilty about sharing real abused materials. My comment sparked a number of interesting points and the most memorable one was whether AI- generated child porn will be illegal or not.

But more so is the fake content itself. We have the technology to manipulate lips movement in a video to sync with a script. So we can totally fake a conversation/speech. So can body movements in the future - whole porn video is entirely a work of software.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15426361](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15426361)

</comment><comment><USER4> It's gonna be rough to be a disliked public profile in the future.</comment>


Ask HN: Overcoming an Inferiority Complex - <AUTHOR> Dear HN,
I've hit a bit of a brick wall in life recently and for the first time in my relatively short life (24) I've been diagnosed with depression.  This has spurned me into doing a bit of self reflection and soul searching.
I'm a hacker at heart.  I love to code and have done since my early teens.  By the time I left high school to start university I had already taught myself C++, written games and worked during holidays as a developer for a small local company.  I guess that lead to an anti-climax when I went to study Comp. Sci. at university.  I attended a reasonably good university by UK standards, top 20 for engineering in the UK.  But throughout my time there I always felt like I was missing out, I pretty much walked through the course.  Don't get me wrong I worked hard, real hard but I was never mentally challenged.  I would deliberately over-engineer assignments to challenge myself.  I was the go to guy for classmates when they were stuck with assignments.  I left said university 2 years ago with a 1st class honours degree and average class score of > 80%.
After graduating I took a job working at a large financial organisation in the UK.  My day-to-day work is focused on patching and extending a large CRUD application.  For the first year I was on a roll, I quickly learnt the twisted innards of the codebase, patched and extended the life out of it and was rewarded with a promotion within 18 months.  But it brings me no joy.
I guess where I'm going with this is that I've always achieved.  I've always achieved everything I can within my circumstance.  But I'm never satisfied.  I always compare my achievements to those of others and dismiss what I have done.  This has lead to a feeling of worthlessness and inferiority.  Applying this to my current situation I feel stuck.  I'm in a secure, well paid job but with little opportunity to learn or develop.  I live in a pretty small UK city where all the local software jobs are maintenance of legacy apps.  I read HN daily and aspire to be a part of the startup culture and learn by immersion.  Yet the more I read the more I read the less confident I becomes in my own ability.  I don't know ROR, I haven't learnt Haskell and my algorithms skills are rusty at best.  How would I ever be good enough to work with these guys?
HN how can I address my thought process and gain more confidence in my ability?  Has anybody else overcome anything similar and how did you achieve it? <comment><USER2> It sounds like you have self confidence issues which lead to a fear of failure. The only way to overcome it is to take a leap of faith. The time is now. I waited until I was 30 to really get over it, and I wasted most of my 20s. So basically:

\- stop comparing yourself to others \- stop being afraid of failure \- just fucking do it

You'll be amazed how freeing it is to not worry about failing anymore. This isn't to say it isn't a hard "habit" to break. I still have my own doubts, but I just remember rejection/failure is only temporary. To paraphrase someone much wiser than me:

"On my deathbed, I will regret not trying things far more than I'll regret failing at them"

So my suggestion to you: start a side project and get to hacking. Pick a small problem that drives you crazy and set out to program a solution in Rails. It doesn't even have to be something to make money; you just need to put yourself out there.

Maybe this isn't you, but your story sounds very familiar. I've been self- employed since I was 20, but I never let myself take it to the next level. If I can save you or someone else those wasted years, it was worth writing this. This Steve Jobs quote still gives me chills, and it spurred me to change my life:

"For the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself: "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been "No" for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something…almost everything – all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure – these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose."

<comment><AUTHOR> That Steve quote really resonates.

Your assessment is 100%, it all stems from a lack of self-confidence in my own ability. And that lack of self confidence is causing a constant nagging in my mind that prevents me from achieving what I'm ultimately capable of.

I already have a number of side projects which are predominately mobile apps. One of which has an install base in the thousands. Another of which absolutely bombed and yet took the longest to develop - that was a failure. I don't think I fear failure in my work. Rather I fear failure in life, being rejected for jobs and not being good enough to work at company X or with person Y.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> When I start to feel discouraged, I get busy with a project. I bury my head in work.

Is this the ideal solution? Maybe not, but doing something constructive keeps your mind from spiralling into negativity.

<comment><USER4> This is pretty much how I 'cured' myself, but expanded upon a bit in another reply. Great advice all around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> 1\. You are inferior, that's a non-changing fact, so get over it. Everybody is inferior relative to somebody else, just as everybody is superior relative to somebody else; it's just how you compare people.

2\. You will get better on what you do if you stick to it, but somebody else will be better than you no matter what; that is true for everybody else.

3\. You will die someday. Everybody does.

4\. You will die soon, as with everybody else.

5\. You will surely die - everybody will. So stop obsessing on what you lack and make the most of the time left.

<comment><AUTHOR> Puts things into perspective nicely.

<comment><USER4> And to kind of expand upon what phektus said regarding someone else always being better:

Surround yourself with these people! There's an old saying, "if you're the smartest person in the room then you're standing in the wrong room."

I crave knowledge and challenges. If I feel like what I do is too easy then I need something else. I try to find folks who are doing something above and beyond that and begin talking to them.

Never stop learning. I'm probably going off topic again. It's been a long day.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I, too, know exactly where you're coming from with these feelings. I've recently been making incredible progress with changing my thinking to be more productive and to simply becoming more happy and satisfied while moving forward.

1\. Read Hardcore Zen: [http://www.amazon.com/Hardcore-Zen-Monster-Movies- Reality/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Hardcore-Zen-Monster-Movies- Reality/dp/086171380X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308646559&sr=8-1)

2\. Read my last blog post: [http://siberianfruit.com/post/6042838362/the- myth-about-what...](http://siberianfruit.com/post/6042838362/the-myth-about- what-you-are-and-arent-good-at)

3\. Work on separating facts from your interpretation. All of us do this all the time. Something happens (an event of one sort or another). We make up a story about that event. We then proceed to live our lives as if our story WERE the event or the fact. The path to liberation lies through understanding that the stories was not what actually happened. We make them up! The reality is always neutral, not good or bad. Just is. And because of that we have the freedom to choose what our reality is. Of course, I'm just scratching the surface, but if you message me privately, I can point you to more resources on how you can work on this.

:)

</comment><comment><USER7> "We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of effort is the same." \-- Carlos Castenada

Take a complex product like a distributed database or a queue or a browser (or whatever else takes your fancy) and build a competitor. You'd be tackling disk structures, concurrency, query parsing and evaluation, distributed programming, encryption, compression, the works.

Make sure you don't spend all your time on learning what others have done. Think of how you'd do it from scratch and then you'd be able to understand the various real world algorithms and tradeoffs that go into it. It is a fantastic challenge, and when you come off that exercise, you'll be up there with the big boys.

</comment><comment><USER8> Hello dear hacker fellow,

I fully understand how you feel - I've got to the same state you are, with a difference that it came 10 years later than for you. I've got the same feelings about being unsatisfied, not challenged enough, feeling not useful, feeling not understood. With a difference - though it might not be a real advantage - I did not feel inferior and I do not envy others who achieve more than me. This is because in my youth I had a friend who helped me to gain much confidence.

Still, I got stuck - secure situation, paid job, family, kids, paying the house every month - but not happy. It came to a moment when I went to my doctor and told him that I cannot continue any more. He stopped me from working, 4 months. I still see my doctor twice a week. It's difficult, but it helped me to take decisions - I quit the job and are about to build my own thing. I have still a lot to understand on myself and other personal decisions to take. But bit by bit I get the confidence back, I start contacting friends, start to talk, start to act.

I think you need somebody to speak to. You need real friend(s) with whom you can freely discuss about your feelings, your fears, uncertainties. It might be that a good psychoanalyst might help - this is the case for me, though it took me to try out 2 different before I found the one I am comfortable with. And this despite the fact that I am still critical about psychoanalysis, that I do not fully trust it, that I find psychoanalysts most of the time talking BS, that I find psychoanalysts elitists, despite the fact that they will never take the risk and give you any ETA ;) - for me it helped to resolve some problems.

Two years before my break down, a friend told me that I should start psychoanalysis. And I told him all the arguments, why I was not sure I wanted to - it is expensive, how am I going to provide for my family, it will take too much time, I do not trust psychoanalysis, etc... He told me: "Anyway, one day you will have no choice and all the fears you have today will become insignificant and it will be about your survival." Two years after the moment came. But I wish, I was strong enough to take his advice earlier and avoid the breakdown...

But this is only my personal opinion and you will get many different and contradictory opinions and advices. It will be up to you to sort out which match for you.

I wish you good luck

</comment><comment><USER9> What's the absolutely coolest thing you could imagine working on? Spend some time figuring that out. The most kick-ass, killing it, totally awesome thing?

Then start a side project doing that.

Notice all the "but... but..."'s in your head. Ignore them.

Also: <http://www.google.com/search?q=cognitive+therapy> is good for addressing thought processes.

</comment><comment><USER10> There's really nothing that makes me feel more well-adjusted and self- confident than regular exercise.

<comment><USER11> Totally agreed. Any kind of daily physical activity (could be exercise, some sport, dance, anything) will definitely help.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I completely understand how you feel.

You sound successful: academically and career wise. You realise this, yet it's never enough and you compare yourself to the cream of the crop or 'what you could be'.

You need to stop this. Constantly wishing for something more while feeling unhappy with where you are 'in the moment' is a bad state of mind. It is not how you want to experience your life and it is certainly not reflective of what you have already achieved. (Many happy people achieve a lot less!)

There will always be people that are more intelligent or more successful, and so on. No matter how hard any of us try, there will always be something more to attain and, truly, if you wished to feel superior to your peers then Hacker News would not be the best place to be. Other than at a few elite universities and companies it is difficult to find people as intelligent, refined and ambitious as those found here. (This is not a bad thing! Being around these kinds of people lifts you up.)

I am not saying 'give up on trying to attain', and the advice which has been given by many in this thread on how to do so or how to free yourself from tedium is brilliant. But remember that life is not a journey in which the only thing important is moving-up and getting to the 'end'. There is not going to be a top to the ladder you're climbing, and the only 'end' is when you die. [1]

As for: gaining confidence in your abilities, feeling better about yourself, having a better thought process, and overcoming whatever real or perceived obstacles you feel lie in your way; my suggestions are that you:

a. Stop considering your life as a giant examination in which you must constantly seek ways of evaluating yourself. Make your life about finding the people and projects that truly engage you and bring you happiness.

b. Consider life a learning experience: embrace change [2]; embrace failure as a neccessity; embrace as much as you can: whatever you do, remember that this might be the last time that you do it. [3] The experience that you get from your life is all you have: make the most of it.

c. Do not let others approval dictate how you feel you must live your life; know this: the choices you make today will create the person that you are tomorrow. Be happy with who and where you are now. You are the result of the convictions and hard work you had yesterday. Take responsibility and find happiness within yourself.

Anyway, hopefully that perspective helps you find a more pleasing direction to your life.

Good luck! :)

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4>

[2] I actually live in London myself, and I am sure there are startup companies around that would be interested in someone like you if you wanted to get a job here. I don't think the experience level required is quite as high as you think it is: it is more important that you are an intelligent man that works hard, gets on with others, and cares about what he's doing. Likewise, there are Hacker News meetups run here and that is a nice way to meet people similar to yourself.

[3] [http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/27/twenty-first- century-2....](http://www.boingboing.net/2010/10/27/twenty-first- century-2.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> This is absolutely fantastic advice and I'm extremely grateful that you took the time to jot it all down.

Why you object if I were to get in touch with you? I'm UK based (not London) and would be interested in hearing a bit about the startup/tech scene in and around London. Being involved in a local HN group would be an awesome aid for me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> > How would I ever be good enough to work with these guys?

"If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room."

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER4> I think I have been in your shoes. I got lucky at a young age and semi-made a name for myself.

I started working on an open source project when I was around 17 years old. By the time I was 18 or 19, the project was gaining in popularity. I got a great job right out of high school and moved to California. There were several times when I actually overheard random people talking about my project in public. That was cool.

As time went on, I moved on to different job due to various circumstances (none the fault of myself, but of the market.)

11 years or so have now passed and I am finishing up a few years of contract work/freelancing. Money was good for a while but the contracts dried up when the economy took a turn. I'm a smart dude, but I was never good at marketing myself.

I went through a year of depression where I stopped looking for work and couldn't convince myself that I was worth anything.

It took damn near that entire year to convince myself that I was still the same bright dude that did all of these things. I don't say this to be boastful, but instead to say that you are still that same person that accomplished whatever it is that you did.

It took a long, hard year for me to realize that. Once I came to that realization, my depression began to fade. I am now fighting and clawing to put myself back out in the world.

I've started up a couple start-up ideas (once is a very small niche that should launch in the next couple weeks, basically just waiting on the financial bits to fall into place.), and the other I hope to have up and going a couple months after.

I am actively submitting resumes now. I did not hear back from a couple of the companies to which I submitted my resume. I don't feel phased by that anymore. I know that I can/will be valuable to a company and if some company does not see that then some other company will.

I honestly can not say what helped me overcome my issues. I had friend constantly telling me encouraging thoughts, saying wonderful things to me, but I didn't believe it. I was simply in a dark place. As I think about it now, however, the best I can do for putting a finger on my solution was: * I started exercising again. It does a lot, not only for your physical health, but for your mental health * I quit smoking. It makes you sluggish. * Limit your drinking for the same reason. * I started working on side projects that excited me.

Now that excitement that I had when I was a fresh lad at 19 years old feels reborn, only now I am 30 years old and ready to take on the world all over again, cheesy as it may sound.

I don't let the accomplishments of others get me down. I have decided, instead, to let them inspire. Did someone do something you want to do? Well, damnit, do it better!

I apologize if this is rambling, I'm just kind of going stream of consciousness from the heart.

Best of luck to you.</comment>


Ask HN: Any Diabetics Around for an Interview? - <AUTHOR> Hi, I am Ely, a type 1 for about 24 years now. I am going to launch a website that tells the story behind the person that you are with diabetes. I am looking for people with diabetes that are interested to be interviewed and have an online profile created on my new website.
This website will also include topics like food and going out eating as a diabetic.
Thank you.
Greetings, Ely <comment><USER2> Yes... I am interested... And I am also a web developer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great. How can I reach you? Once my question list is done I can send it to you.</comment></comment>


AI that spots inequality could monitor living conditions in cities - <AUTHOR> https://www.newscientist.com/article/2200264-ai-that-spots-inequality-could-monitor-living-conditions-in-cities/ <comment><USER2> Developed in China?</comment>


Kernels 101 – Let's write a Kernel (2014) - <AUTHOR> https://arjunsreedharan.org/post/82710718100/kernels-101-lets-write-a-kernel <comment><USER2> I made a barebones beginner repo as well, but with all the glue solved for C and C++ (no exceptions and rtti, although that is certainly possible too): [https://github.com/fwsGonzo/barebones](https://github.com/fwsGonzo/barebones)

While writing a bootloader is fun, there is a lot of old things that you can only solve by having thousands of people use your loader. Hence, we turn to multiboot - which also allows us to boot on google cloud and many other cool places.

I read the tutorial and its quite well written. One nit pick is that the stack pointer is just set to a value that a beginner won't understand - namely the end of the 8kb BSS area. Additionally, the BSS area is not zeroed, which has to be done at some point, so there is potential for problems down the road.

On i386 and amd64 the stack grows downwards, so we should be setting our stack pointer to the 16-byte aligned (due to SSE) end of our stack area.</comment>


Ask HN: I'm joining a startup and I have a couple of questions. - <AUTHOR>

Hello HN,
I've been invited to join a startup and I'm pretty keen on the idea so far. But I have a couple of qns that I need some help with.
1. They are offering me equity. Should I take it? Or skip this and stick to a higher salary?
2. They just closed a Series A and their product is already profitable. Is it polite for me to ask for figures?
(I'm assuming figures will be helpful for me to determine if I should take equity.) <comment><USER2> Definitely ask to see the figures. If they truly are profitable and have closed a series A - TAKE IT.

Usually startups that are successful have a tough vetting process. If they want to hire you, they want to hire you. Do not get greedy, but take some equity and get a bit higher salary as well.

Be careful, though. I have seen a few things about company exits that leave some shareholders with nothing (some stipulation with the deal itself). Good luck

</comment><comment><USER3> 1\. Don't reject equity, but don't lower your salary for it either.

2\. If their product is profitable, why are they taking funding?

3\. Go ahead and ask for numbers, they shouldn't be secret.

<comment><USER4> You can be profitable and still choose to take on funding for a variety of reasons. Although these may not be the reasons the startup in question above chose to, a few that comes to mind includes:

1\. Investors can and should be considered an extension of your own team. The right investors can greatly add value outside of financial needs and greatly help in a variety of areas.

2\. While you might be profitable, an infusion of cash can help you grow faster and the investors can help you grow properly so you don't end up growing prematurely. Plenty of entrepreneurs who have previous successful exit and capital to float their own companies, and companies who are profitable, still choose to raise funding.

3\. To help validate their company to potential employees and ensure there is valuation provided for the stock issued. I know some people refuse to join a startup if its not backed even if the company is profitable.

That said, profitable is subjective. Is it a lot, a little, ramen level? The above are not the only reasons but just some that comes to my mind right now.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, I wasn't trying to answer the question prematurely because there are indeed "a variety of reasons," and we don't know jack about the company. My point was to recommend asking the question.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If they are really profitable (and make sure to check that), I'd take as much equity as I could, but I'd definitely ask what % of all equity these stocks represent.

It could be like "here, we're giving you 10,000 SHARES!!!", only to later find out they issued 10 billion shares.</comment>


Show HN: Top 2017 Websites - <AUTHOR> https://statvoo.com/top/sites <comment><USER2> I'd like to see some relative size indicated by the rankings. In the search category, Yahoo is listed at #3 behind Google and Baidu, but I'll bet it is a distant third. In the movies category, Rotten Tomatoes is listed at #3, but I'll bet it is a close race between the top three. Can you post a score metric next to their rankings? Or maybe I'm not seeing it on mobile?

</comment><comment><USER3> Would someone please explain how msn.com generates this much traffic? Do people not change the default homepage url in their internet explorer at work?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think you're right. Most of these sort of things are due to legacy homepages pre-setup in wonkies like Internet Explorer. A lot of companies actually don't let you change things like the start-page of your browser (which you can't update either)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> How did torrenthound.com get on the list they shuttered themselves ON SEPTEMBER 15, 2016

[https://torrentfreak.com/torrenthound-shuts-down-another- big...](https://torrentfreak.com/torrenthound-shuts-down-another-big-torrent- site-bites-the-dust-160915/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, we've made some changes to the algorithm and made sure that it only takes the most current datasets. Tons more categories as well ;)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> A automatically curated list of top websites for 2017

</comment><comment><USER5> Craigslist couldn't crack any one of these lists?

MySpace is still 3rd, really?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, we've made some changes to the algorithm and made sure that it only takes the most current datasets. Tons more categories as well ;) Craigslist should automatically appear with tomorrow morning's auto update.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> With no details on how this list was generated, it's nothing more than a curiosity (searched for waffles on google, counted pages from each site, rank ordered by amount of syrup?) - and the general site layout feels so sketchy and dominated by huge search ads, I really don't want to go poking around on other pages to see what I can find.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, Thanks for your feedback! The lists are curated by comparing the traffic between all sites within main categories and also by our own rating system ([https://statvoo.com/page/statvoo-rating- system](https://statvoo.com/page/statvoo-rating-system)).

p.s. You do seem to have waffles and syrup on the brain..</comment></comment>


BIND 9.11.0rc1 is now available - <AUTHOR> https://lists.isc.org/pipermail/bind-announce/2016-August/001002.html <comment><USER2> Am I the only one who believes bind is lost. It's a way too large project with a too messy history. I nowadays always try to use alternatives (unbound, nsd etc.)</comment>


No Whitespace - <AUTHOR> http://begriffs.com/posts/2011-07-07-no-whitespace.html

<comment><USER2> > We should move through source files not by line but by block

Have you ever written in a lisp with the paredit plugin? (for Emacs or Vim)

</comment><comment><USER3> What about python, whitespace is significant there</comment>


The Way America Votes Is Broken. One Rural County Showed a Way Forward - <AUTHOR> https://www.propublica.org/article/the-way-america-votes-is-broken-in-one-rural-county-a-nonprofit-showed-a-way-forward <comment><USER2> I think that a secret ballot is fundamentally incompatible with an incorruptible voting system. As long as an individual cannot check that their vote has been properly recorded, which ballot secrecy renders impossible, there will be room for shenanigans.

Such secrecy clearly has benefits, like preventing much in the way of paying, or intimidating, for votes. But it also has a clear cost, namely in reducing the trustworthiness of the results. I'd choose trustworthiness, but I understand why many choose secrecy instead.

I'd sure like to be convinced that this isn't such a dilemma and that there's a way to have both. But a marginally better voting machine isn't it.

<comment><USER3> I don't see how a secret ballet couldn't still be checked later by the voter. If we're talking paper ballots, then each ballot could have a unique id printed on it. The voter could either write the number down or the ballot could have a "receipt" section you tear off and keep. The numbers could be recorded as they're being counted and published later. The voter could then check to make sure his or her vote was counted appropriately.

This would be even easier digitally.

<comment><USER2> If you can't prove that the unique id is associated with a particular voter, it isn't good enough because it can't prove that their vote was altered. If it can be associated with a particular voter, it can be used as proof to satisfy a vote buyer or intimidator.

However it does have the advantage of not being entirely public, making the voter less open to influence or retribution by family, employers, etc.

<comment><USER3> > If you can't prove that the unique id is associated with a particular voter, > it isn't good enough because it can't prove that their vote was altered.

It's up to the voter to confirm their vote was counted correctly.

<comment><USER4> And then what? It will be your word of "I voted A" against the factual "B" on the paper.

<comment><USER3> The whole point is to ensure your vote gets counted correctly, yes? If you wanted to vote Democrat and discover your id in the Republican column, you let somebody know. Then they re-check the ballot and can say "no, you marked Republican. That was your mistake and we didn't count it wrong." Or they'll say "gee golly, yes, we counted your vote wrong. Our mistake. We'll correct the counts."

If your id isn't in either column, you also let somebody know so you can re- vote. This makes sure your vote doesn't get "misplaced", either by malice or incompetence.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's no information in this article to explain why these new uncertified machines are better. Why should we trust a non-profit that didn't get any federal certification with our voting accuracy?

<comment><AUTHOR> What information are you looking for? The article describes the performance and results of these new machines for an admittedly small election:

\- _" The machines, VotingWorks said, were inexpensive to make, easy to fix and no problem to set up and take down. The hope, the organization said, was to produce shorter lines and more reliable results, a wish that seemed realized on Nov. 5."_

\- _" After the initial trial and a second user test at a retirees potluck lunch, the county election commissioners enthusiastically allowed the company to test the machines countywide during the general election on Tuesday."_

\- " _The machines took poll workers less than two minutes to fully construct, shortening lines and keeping voters calm. Poll workers uniformly said they loved this feature, as it made the machines easier to maneuver and take down._ "

\- _" "Everything went just fine," said Amy Burdine, Choctaw County circuit clerk. "Just as expected.""_

You realize that voting accuracy can be determined on the day of the election with these machines? By the way the operation is described, voters use the machine to mark choices digitally, and a paper printout is produced, allowing each voter to look at and confirm the result. According to the article, there were few, if any mistakes or complaints.

What other metric are you interested in?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I believe I read the way America does "early candidate polling" (like what is going on now for Democrats) is having an approved sanction randomly call landlines.

That's very archaic and made me lose interest in the whole process.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is incorrect. Modern polling calls cell phones, and also uses online surveys. However, the fact that people get so many robocalls from unknown numbers is attributed to the decrease in overall polling response:

[https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/phone-polling- cris...](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/27/phone-polling- crisis-1191637)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: If you had a big screen in your office, what would you use it for? - <AUTHOR>

To what use would you put a TV screen with a Chromecast mounted next to the development team? There is a number of cool ideas, we will be using it for code reviews, progress updates, debugging difficult issues and other tasks that only require the display for a short amount of time.<p>However, for most of the day, we output the background images that come packed with every Chromecast. I would love to hear how YOU would use a big TV screen right next to your dev team. <comment><USER2> We have flat-screen TVs on every floor with an Android box hooked up and paging through our main web sites, their stats and other (non-dev) info.

Since you've mentioned Chromecasts, I suggest you look at [http://greenscreen.io](http://greenscreen.io) (haven't used it myself, but it is similar to what I implemented).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! It looks good, I especially like the idea of notifications / alerts, would work well for us as we have multiple screens for different departments. We can finally bug the marketing guys to make us coffee!!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> for watching the tech bubble burst.</comment>


Get the physical location of wireless router from its MAC address - <AUTHOR> http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/get-the-physical-location-of-wireless-router-from-its-mac-address-bssid/ <comment><USER2> one single cmd wee

MYMAC=$(arp -a | awk '/[0-9a-f]:/ { gsub(/^0:|[1-9a-z]0:/, "00:", $4); gsub(/:/, "", $4); print $4; exit; }') && curl --header "Content-Type: text/xml" --data "<?xml version='1.0'?><LocationRQ xmlns='<http://skyhookwireless.com/wps/2005'> version='2.6' street-address- lookup='full'><authentication version='2.0'><simple><username>beta</username><realm>js.loki.com</realm></simple></authentication><access- point><mac>$MYMAC</mac><signal-strength>-50</signal-strength></access- point></LocationRQ>" <https://api.skyhookwireless.com/wps2/location>

had to change 0: to 00: and strip out those :'s

<comment><USER2> :P or rather,

curl --header "Content-Type: text/xml" --data "<?xml version='1.0'?><LocationRQ xmlns='<http://skyhookwireless.com/wps/2005'> version='2.6' street-address-lookup='full'><authentication version='2.0'><simple><username>beta</username><realm>js.loki.com</realm></simple></authentication><access- point><mac>$(arp -a | awk '/[0-9a-f]:/ { gsub(/^0:|:0:/, "00:", $4); gsub(/:/, "", $4); print $4; exit; }')</mac><signal-strength>-50</signal- strength></access-point></LocationRQ>" <https://api.skyhookwireless.com/wps2/location>

<comment><USER3> Our wonderful scripting adventures don't seem to work anymore... ;( Anyone able to confirm?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> curl --header "Content-Type: text/xml" --data "<?xml version='1.0'?><LocationRQ xmlns='<http://skyhookwireless.com/wps/2005'> version='2.6' street-address-lookup='full'><authentication version='2.0'><simple><username>beta</username><realm>js.loki.com</realm></simple></authentication><access- point><mac>YOURMACADDRESS</mac><signal-strength>-50</signal-strength></access- point></LocationRQ>" <https://api.skyhookwireless.com/wps2/location> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>

<comment><AUTHOR> haha cmd line ftw, nice

except you have an extra xml tag at the end

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is related to, but NOT A DUP of, the post incorrectly titled "Google map a cellphone knowing its MAC address" at <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=298073>. The article intruiged me but I knew there had to be an easier way to send any MAC address to their API since there is no way for them to remotely determine your MAC address. In the blog post I show how.

</comment><comment><USER4> Skyhook knows where your access point is because at one time they drove by and mapped it. Google is probably collecting the same information from their street view vans. All you need is a laptop with a GPS receiver to log coordinates and MAC addresses.

So why not do it yourself? <http://wigle.net/> is a public access point MAC address mapping site run by community contributions of location information.

<comment><AUTHOR> I looked through the wiggle database. A TON of their information is super old. Of course there's no way to know how old SkyHook's is since it's totally private.

<comment><USER4> Skyhook loves to tell you how recent their data is. They re-drive high turnover areas (colleges) a few times a year. Everything else is quite recent. With Skyhook's high profile use in the iPhone they can't afford to be out of date.

Last I checked they had over 45 million access points recorded. With enough users, the system can become self sustaining. You upload all the detected access points in your area for a request so it's trivial for them to auto- update their system if you submitted a newly discovered or changed MAC address.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Does this mean that if you upgrade your router and put the old one on eBay and sell it to someone across the country, Skyhook's data is inaccurate (until they next drive by)?

<comment><AUTHOR> yup</comment></comment>


PHP 7.4 available - <AUTHOR> https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration74.php <comment><USER2> discussed in [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21655889](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21655889)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah I missed that. Thanks.</comment></comment>


FROST: Forensic Recovery Of Scrambled Telephones - <AUTHOR> https://www1.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/frost

<comment><AUTHOR> Don't miss the critical detail:

> 15) Flash the frost.img file from our download section to the phone: > 'fastboot flash recovery frost.img'. For this command to work, the > bootloader must be unlocked.

You must leave your phone in a vulnerable state for this attack to be practical. Otherwise it's a known attack vector.</comment>


LED Light Pollution: Can We Save Energy and Save the Night? (2015) - <AUTHOR> http://spie.org/newsroom/1015-led-light-pollution <comment><USER2> They replaced the old lighting with white LEDs on my block a couple months ago.

First off, it actually makes it MORE difficult to see (now that the trees have leaves) than the orange light did. The LEDs are so much brighter that the contrast makes the shadows even deeper than they used to be, and your eyes can't see anything that's in shadow.

Secondly, it makes it much more difficult to sleep. My windows are ABOVE the lights (which face downwards), and it's like trying to sleep in daylight. I can't imagine what it's like on the floors below. My sleep has definitely suffered.

<comment><USER3> I also noticed the shadow problem. And with some fixtures, the shadow itself can have a strange pixelated look - [https://i.imgur.com/e0nReZ8.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/e0nReZ8.jpg)

At the same time, the city looks much more beautiful to me under LED lighting.

<comment><USER2> Wow, that's an unpleasant effect!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Higher kelvin lights look so much better in my opinion. [http://i.imgur.com/XHqUPOY.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/XHqUPOY.jpg)

<comment><USER5> If the existing was the left side and the new was the right, would you feel the same way?

I would definitely feel a lot safer on the left side, which is one of the main goals of night lighting.

<comment><USER6> Your eyes adapt, though. Compare the shadow patches on the right side versus the shadow patches on the left. The left side is much clearer in the light patches, but the right is more consistent overall (supporting what cauterized says above about shadows).

Another sleeper issue with rapidly changing light and dark patches is that if you manage to get them to flicker around 10-14Hz (driving through light+dark patches), you're going to provoke the occasional photoresponsive epileptic seizure. This has been seen in some roads in France where the trees were spaced in such a way that when the sun is low in the sky, it creates such a flicker. I don't know what the rate would be for driving along that road at a normal rate, but I'd be curious to find out. If it's a relatively short road, it would be unlikely to flicker long enough to provoke a seizure, even in the right frequency ranges.

<comment><USER5> >Your eyes adapt, though.

Not to the point where one would feel as safe on the right as they do to the left.

>the right is more consistent overall

That's because of the fixtures--there's a reason they are causing lens flares while the left side isn't.

<comment><USER7> If "feels safe" is our goal, we're gonna be chasing those taillights forever. :/

I live on an _incredibly_ well lit block in a very well lit part of SF. [0] I'm a couple of blocks away from a substantially less well lit block. [1] It's _much_ more enjoyable to walk through the less well lit block than the more well lit ones. I expect that it's _significantly_ nicer for the folks living in the apartments on that block, too.

Light pollution _also_ affects people who aren't astronomers. :(

[0] Seriously, you can _easily_ read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight.

[1] That is to say, you'd have to strain your eyes to read a book on that section of the street.

<comment><USER8> >Seriously, you can easily read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight.

I HIGHLY doubt that.Sunlight provides ~98,000 lux[1], while common street lighting is around 15 lux [2]

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight) [2] [https://www.use- ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pd...](https://www.use- ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pdf)

<comment><USER9> Perceived brightness after pupil dilation is what matters. If you can easily read a book then it's already too bright to sleep.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There is a photo "showing the difference in glare between poorly designed lamps and full cutoff lamps."

That reminds me of a lens design I read about back in 2013 that used TIR lenses

[https://www.osapublishing.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-21-9-10...](https://www.osapublishing.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-21-9-10612&id=253009)

Anyone know if this system is seeing widespread adoption?

</comment><comment><USER11> The advantage of light pollution is that you can get blown away if you do manage to find a dark spot in the countryside and see the night sky...

Here's an interesting art project that simulates what night skies would look like in cities without any artificial light: [http://www.space.com/20615-darkened-cities-night-sky- imagine...](http://www.space.com/20615-darkened-cities-night-sky- imagined.html)

<comment><USER12> Totally fake. And obviously so. Wiki how many stars you can see them estimate how many are in the photo.

<comment><USER11> And openly so, as the artist combined pictures of cities with pictures of the night sky taken e.g. in the desert, but at the same latitude. So they are "fake" but plausible.

<comment><USER13> They're not plausible for a human, even out in the desert far from civilization. Light captured by a sensitive camera and long exposure do not represent what a human would see. Nearly all night time starscapes are enhanced past what a human would see in any situation.

<comment><USER14> Yeah, those photos seem to be a bit colorized with brighter than reality stars, but I'm willing to be overall density of visible stars would be the same.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Nightclubs have been ruined. Bright LEDs replace the old lines one for one, and instead of being dark, with bits of light it is almost like daylight.

</comment><comment><USER16> I wrote a paper for a sociology class in college focussing not only on light pollution, but the fact that many historians believe that certain cultural and aesthetic attributes of cities and surrounding urban areas are lost when the warm glow of HPS lights is replaced with stark white LEDs.

<comment><USER17> If that's really a concern, LEDs don't have to be white.

<comment><USER18> Kind of. The really high efficiency LEDs are blue. The problem is with the efficiency of green LEDs.

I suppose you could just use red and yellow LEDs and completely solve the circadian light problem. I think that such streetlights would be hard to sell.

<comment><USER19> > Kind of. The really high efficiency LEDs are blue. The problem is with the > efficiency of green LEDs.

Hu? That's not true. Blue is less efficient, not more. The lower the wavelength the more efficient (toward the red side of the rainbow).

Also mono-color LEDs are MUCH more efficient than the ultraviolet ones with a phosphor (AKA white) ones.

If you wanted efficiency then have red and green in an LED, and that's it. You don't really need full color at night.

<comment><USER18> Each LED technology has an optimal wavelength. The current tendency is to use blue LEDs and then make white light with phosphors so the development is mostly on the blue LED technologies.

The green problem is caused by the lack of a technology. So you end up with bluish/green coming down from the blue side and yellowish/green when going up from the red side. That prevents really efficient RGB LEDs and makes the inefficient phosphor based white LEDs competitive. If you ever see a RGB LCD backlight you will see that there are more green LEDs than red or blue LEDs.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Caddy Proposal: Permanently change all proprietary licensing to open source - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/caddyserver/caddy/issues/2786 <comment><USER2> It's been a while since I've seen Caddy here and I do remember all the controversy over the licensing. It is difficult to make an open source project and find a way to monetize/live off of it and there's always been that push/pull with projects like this, Redis, and others.

Back during that mess, I settled on haproxy+certbot+nginx in containers to setup my personal sites, but something like Caddy can greatly simplify that kind of stack.

This is pretty cool news and I hope this project continues to develop. How have they solved their funding problems? Does this have to do with the comment about Ardan Labs? For other people with FOSS projects who want to be able to work on this kind of stuff full time and not care about motorization, what options are there (other than Patreon/crowd/community type funding?)

<comment><USER3> Nginx does have paid-only features, so I don't really think your "purity move" hit the target...

The harsh truth is that even Free Software costs money to write, and developers should be paid.

<comment><USER4> As a developer, I like to get paid, but the issue of monetising something you already gave away for free is more complicated than that and the idea that somebody can build an effective business on something like caddy is probably a tad unrealstic.

There's a long list of free shit that we're building on top of. It's a bit like somebody sticking a cherry ontop of a free cake then trying to charge for it.

This is why a lot of people just go down the consultancy route. I imagine Matt Holt will be better off simply from being the author of a famous project.

Don't get me wrong though, if the project can monetise Caddy, all power to them.

<comment><USER5> Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called _Better than Free_ which I think kind of distills key points against competing with anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are:

1\. Immediacy (pioneer?)

2\. Personalization (bespoke?)

3\. Interpretation (consultancy?)

4\. Authenticity (brand?)

5\. Accessibility (SaaS?)

6\. Embodiment (concierge/luxury?)

7\. Findability (marketing?)

I'm not sure if anyone else has written abt this, but I'd like to read more.

[0] [https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than- fre/](https://kk.org/thetechnium/better-than-fre/)

<comment><USER6> > Kevin Kelly of Wired magazine fame once wrote a piece called Better than > Free which I think kind of distills key points against competing with > anything that can be had for free on/from the internet [0], which are:

Or maybe, you know, just have a better product. Case in point: NLEs. There are a whole bunch of free and sometimes open source NLEs, most of which just aren't particularly good.

<comment><USER7> > NLEs

Non-linear editing systems?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Oh, I thought it's a proposal to permanently change all proprietary licensing in the world to open source...

<comment><USER9> Yeah, me too. I actually thought of it as a sort of innovation-economic stimulus package and went "oh wow, this could work".

Imagine the amount of innovation we'd get if this happened with hardware too.

But then I opened the article and was brought back to earth. __soon __

<comment><USER10> Same. I have this fantasy where I wonder: what if all software became public domain, and you reward creators based on the GitHub stars a repo has, weighted by something like page rank?

Then I realized this could be extended to anything where there is a platform for rating the content creation, from books (Goodreads) to arts (deviant art) to deeds (Facebook and Twitter). Then my friend told me I had reinvented Whuffie, as presented in the book Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom...

The main problem with this idea is that the money for paying creators would probably have to come from the government, since who else would pitch in to support this? But hey, people talk about universal basic income, this is like a weighted version...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> My guess is they're doing this since maybe Caddy's growth may have slowed down since they did that confusing commercial use licensing?

I went from "I'm going to use this everywhere" to "I'll switch back to nginx the next time I have time to transition back" Because it was too expensive to host little sites on. I'm relieved that I procrastinated. Now i can continue to use it in many places since Caddy is awesome.

<comment><USER12> My guess is you are incorrect and this has more to do with the Ardan Labs partnership[1][2]. This release also came shortly after Bill (founder of Ardan Labs) went to visit Matt and discuss Caddy[3], which helps support that claim.

Prior to the partnership I believe the real issue was that Matt & co didn't have a sustainable way to maintain the project and they were trying to figure that out. I don't know the details of the partnership with Ardan Labs, but my guess is it is structured in a way that allows Caddy to focus solely on building out a great product without worrying about monetizing it so they dropped all the proprietary licensing.

[1] - [https://www.ardanlabs.com/news/2019/05/ardan-labs- partners-w...](https://www.ardanlabs.com/news/2019/05/ardan-labs-partners- with-caddy.html) [2] - [https://twitter.com/mholt6/status/1179957356005707776](https://twitter.com/mholt6/status/1179957356005707776) [3] - [https://twitter.com/goinggodotnet/status/1178949305421438976](https://twitter.com/goinggodotnet/status/1178949305421438976)

<comment><USER11> Point taken. Take my damn upvote :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As long as the author can keep his hands from injecting "Sponsored-By" headers into my responses, I'd call it a win.

<comment><USER14> I would happily accept sponsored by headers if it meant free commercial use of caddy

<comment><USER13> Even if it looks like this?

> Caddy-Sponsors: This free web server is made possible by its sponsors: > Minio, Uptime Robot, and Sourcegraph

[https://github.com/caddyserver/caddy/pull/1866](https://github.com/caddyserver/caddy/pull/1866)

<comment><USER15> What's wrong with this header?

<comment><USER13> That PR describes what's wrong pretty thoroughly, some went for the rest of the community's response. Therefore they backed down.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is great news for Caddy. I have worked with Ardan Labs in the past and they are a terrific organization with some incredibly talented engineers.

</comment><comment><USER17> I have done only a smidgen of Go programming, and don't know Caddy or any of the firms mentioned in the issue.

Do I correctly understand that Light Code Labs, the company steward of the Caddy project, is shifting to an entirely professional services-based business model, which is Ardan Labs' business model, by partnering with them?

<comment><USER18> What I understood was that in the future Ardan Labs would provide paid support for Caddy. Light Code Labs would receive financial support directly from Ardan Labs.

Since Ardan Labs is already in the support business, this would allow them to expand their business while Light Code could focus on coding.

<comment><USER19> Yes this is pretty much how it is. Ardan is a great company.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is great news, I hope it works out for them. Caddy is definitely the easiest web server to set up, and it was a shame when it went commercial, even though I probably would have done the same thing.

</comment><comment><USER21> Never heard of the project, but looks good. Good to see they are making efforts to change the license.

Curious, who/when would you use caddy? If I were to be building and deploying microservices with the likes of Gin, Mux, etc.. would I have a use for this library? Or is this primarily for those wanting to serve static html pages? Still trying to get a foot hold on what my tool kit is going to consist of to build my software product.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've used caddy in places where I needed nginx but wanted end to end ssl and didn't want to deal with local letsencrypt cronjobs.

But caddy is also pretty cool to use as a development web server as well.</comment></comment>


Auto-Antonyms - <AUTHOR> http://www.fun-with-words.com/nym_autoantonyms.html <comment><USER2> There's a classic Amelia Bedelia story about how she's instructed to "dust" a room and sprinkles dust over everything.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Bedelia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Bedelia)

<comment><USER3> Amelia Bedelia should be required reading at some point. She's such a special character!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Might not quite qualify as an auto-antonym, but I am entertained by the new use of "drop" which is increasingly common in ambiguous headlines, perhaps because the dual meaning enhances the clickbait level:

"Apple has dropped feature X" \- they're revealed this new feature "Apple has dropped feature X" \- they no longer support this feature

<comment><USER5> Headline writers using 'dated' to mean a release date (of say a film or game) has been announced, I can't help reading as judgement that the unreleased item is already passé.

Even further from being an auto-antonym, but positive and negative meanings both related to time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Cool site / fun list. But -- and I realize this is pedantic, though if ever there were a time/place for it, it's commentary on a grammar site -- I feel "resign" doesn't quite belong on it. Resign (to sign again) is pronounced with a soft "ess", while (to quit) uses a "z" sound; they're different words w/ different pronunciations that happen to share the same spelling. Doesn't that make them homographs? Is there a special term for this case, perhaps homographic antonym, or anto-homograph?

<comment><USER7> While we're at it, _literally_ doesn't belong on it. _Literally_ has exactly one meaning. Unsurprisingly, the wrong meaning is the opposite of the right one.

Still think this list would help every struggling learner of English.

<comment><USER8> You're _literally_ wrong. :) Literally has two meanings in the dictionary, one of which is your "wrong" one:

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/literally)

You may be interested in linguistic descriptivism, as opposed to linguistic prescriptivism:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description)

<comment><USER9> However, he may not be interested in talking to (or hiring) people who misuse a word and claim that the correct use is a matter of perspective.

We can be descriptive in saying that people use "literally" when they don't mean "literally" \- we can also be descriptive when we label such people as ignorant of the meaning of the words they use.

<comment><USER10> > he may not be interested in talking to (or hiring) people who misuse a word > and claim that the correct use is a matter of perspective.

Because that would be _the worst_. _No one ever_ says something while meaning something else.

When, while sitting at the table, people ask me if I can pass them the water, I check if I can reach the bottle, I check if I'm close enough to them, then I say "yes, I can" and keep eating.

<comment><USER11> My brother did something similar growing up. In Swedish a common way to ask the time is "Vad är klockan?", literally translating to "What is the watch?". To which I got "An invention that tells the time" or some variation thereof for years...

<comment><USER12> I wonder how many languages' time-telling questions could be susceptible of a different literal interpretation.

It seems like the Spanish and Portuguese could be literally taken as "what are hours?" ("intervals of sixty minutes!") (although I don't think it would be the most idiomatic way to ask that question in either language), while one German option is "how late is it?" ("not very!").

There's another German question which could be taken as "how much clock is it?", but since clocks are usually discrete objects, it might be quite a strain to try to take this as a question about something's clock-nature. (Maybe if you were looking at Dalí's _Persistence of Memory_ , you could answer something like "this one is not very much clock".)

<comment><USER11> It's about 20% clock, 70% men's jewellery and 10% guilty pleasure ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> With all the political discussion about Britain recently, the table/table antonym described in this list has come up among my friends lately. In Britain, you "table" a motion to put it up for consideration. In the US, if a motion is "tabled" it is put off until later. Very closely related but directly opposite meanings makes for some confusing discussions, where you need to know the nationality of the writer to have any chance of understanding the statement.

<comment> J-dawg A couple of others that baffle this British English speaker:

\- "I could care less" meaning "I couldn't care less"

\- "Entrée" meaning a main dish rather than a starter

<comment><USER14> I take "I could care less" to mean "I could care even less about this than I already do, that's how little it matters to me", but that could just be me trying to rationalize a mangled expression.

<comment><USER15> Well, yes, but it's always possible to care less about something, unless you are already at the state of absolute-uncaring. Therefore, "I could care less" does nothing to express the desired sentiment.

"I couldn't care less" is a much clearer reference to being at this state of absolute-uncaring.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> As an American English speaker, I've only used "overlook" as a verb to mean "miss noticing entirely", but as a noun related to "examine", for instance a "forest overlook" might be a scenic turnout on the side of a road that provides a view where the forest could be "examined".

Similarly we use the word "oversee" for examining/observing... however "oversight" has taken on the role of an Auto-Antonym. We often use "oversight" and "lack of oversight" to mean the same thing, that something was missed due to carelessness... but we also use it to mean "supervision" that should prevent careless omissions from happening.

<comment><USER17> In the case of such a scenic turnout, wouldn't you then also use "overlook" as a verb, for example in 'the hills that overlook the valley'?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> "Terrific" used to be a synonym for "terrible", and "awesome" for "awful". Even the word "bad" has a slang meaning of "good".

In Japanese 適当 is supposed to mean "appropriate, proper", but in practice it almost always means "unserious, sloppy, careless". Not sure how that came about.

<comment><USER19> Similar to 厉害 in Chinese - it often translates as terrible, but mostly used to mean great.

<comment><USER20> "Awesome" and "Aweful" have similar etymologoies: both mean, "Inspiring or creating awe". But one has morphed into, "really good", and the other into "really bad".

<comment><USER21> Likewise "terrible" and "terrific".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> "Cheap" is another one that bothered me as a kid. It means both "of low quality considering its price" and "of low price considering its quality."

<comment><USER23> And in turn its antonym "dear" is similarly conflicted.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Appreciate this; thanks!

On the misuse of the word "literally", I wholeheartedly agree with the following reader comment from an excellent EconTalk podcast, "John McWhorter on the Evolution of Language and Words on the Move"[1]:

 _This whole "literally" issue seems to have been mis-framed. The reason many of us object to the use of the word "literally" to mean "figuratively" isn't that we can't stand the thought of language evolving; it's because there's no replacement for it! I once had a friend say to me, "X is literally Y, and I mean 'literally' literally (not figuratively)."_

               - - -

From the same[1] podcast, I also learnt about this fun concept called "backshift": when two words join to become a single word (e.g. "breakfast", "blackboard", etc), the accent often shifts to the first word. In McWhorter's words: _When something becomes an established concept and it 's made up of two or more words, then you, very often have that shift to the back of the word_ [i.e. the first word].

I'm not all doing justice to the topic. But go check the transcript[1] for "backshift", Mcwhorter gives more context. I'd strongly suggest to _listen_ to it; it clicks much better, as we're talking about word accents.

[1] [https://www.econtalk.org/john-mcwhorter-on-the-evolution- of-...](https://www.econtalk.org/john-mcwhorter-on-the-evolution-of-language- and-words-on-the-move/)

</comment><comment><USER25> My favourites are words that mean the opposite in different Englishes. For example

* to table: postpone (US English) vs put forward for consideration (British English)

* to (take a) punt: give up (US) vs go ahead (British)

What could we call these... Alter-Anglo-Auto-Antonyms?

<comment><USER26> Also, this used to cause trouble with phone operators connecting phone calls between USA and England: "are you through?" could mean either "are you connected?" or "are you done with the conversation?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Not exactly an auto-antonym, but similar: in Spanish we have a verb, "alquilar", which means simultaneously "to rent" and "to rent out", and it drives me crazy that it's often unclear from which end of the relation one is speaking:

"Man, the law is so unfair to people who rent!"

"Do you mean unfair to the owner of the property or to the tenant who pays the rent?"

(It doesn't translate perfectly to English, but works in Spanish)

edit: wait, I see "lease" is in the list and it has _exactly_ the same problem! Take that, English language! :D

<comment><USER28> I'm not sure if it's officially correct, but I've heard both "rent to" and "rent from" used colloquially in (American) English.

<comment><USER21> I'm sure you're also able to indicate the roles of tenant and landlord in Spanish. But just like in English, you're not required to.

<comment><USER27> Right! You have "propietario" (the person who owns the property) and "inquilino" (the person paying the rent). But confusingly enough the verb is still "alquilar" ("to rent") for both :)

So if you say "voy a alquilar esta casa" ("I'm going to rent this house") it's not clear whether you're the landlord or the tenant.

<comment><USER29> "Renter" would also be ambiguous, although "lessor" and "lessee" do have specific meanings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Collections of words like this really amuse me for some reason. I have my own collection of animal names which are also verbs:

[https://gist.github.com/briangordon/e64d58b6b9abab346014ff05...](https://gist.github.com/briangordon/e64d58b6b9abab346014ff05f56ad920)

</comment><comment> pure-awesome I'm surprised "original" didn't make the list.

For example, consider "An original telling of the story" vs "The original telling of the story".

<comment><USER31> I'm not sure that qualifies as auto antonyms.

Original means the origin/birth in both examples, the difference lies not in the meaning of original but in the word it affects (The telling, or the story itself)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I wish it was socially acceptable to reply with a compiler error when people use these words. Like "Ambiguous token in the current namespace." Maybe that makes me a nerd, on the spectrum, or just pedantic. Or a pedantic nerd on the spectrum.

<comment><USER33> Somewhat related: I wish human languages would have the concept of a parse error. Often enough someone says something to me that I'll hear with 100% clarity, but still have no clue what they are trying to say, after which it's often time to play the "what" game until they rephrase.

<comment><USER34> You might find [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden- path_sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden-path_sentence) interesting.

<comment><USER35> Very interesting. The article's "see also" references branch prediction. Given all the nascent security findings around cache security, it makes me wonder whether disfluency could be used to attack cognition, in interrogative techniques or subversive advertising, for instance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Suggestion:

        leave (verb)
        1. To go away
        2. To keep in place

<comment><USER37> covered already by "left", its past-tense form

<comment><USER21> Not really an autoantonym, as the syntax of the sentence will only ever permit one or the other. ("Left" [remaining] is passive, while "left" [went away] is intransitive and therefore cannot be passive.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There are some religious concepts that could be seen as auto-antonyms. The Polynesian words from which we get "taboo" refer to something sacred to the gods, which therefore ordinary people are forbidden to use or interfere with.

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tapu](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tapu) [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kapu#Hawaiian](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kapu#Hawaiian)

The taboo thing could therefore be seen as very good and important (for gods) or as very bad, improper, or dangerous (for people, outside of the appropriate religious context). I think that many cultures have had a similar dual connotation in words related to sacred things, even if they don't have exactly the same cultural rules.

It's interesting to look at the meanings of Latin "sacer" (the origin of our word "sacred") as an analogy:

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sacer#Adjective](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sacer#Adjective)

</comment><comment><USER38> "quite" can be used to mean "entirely". "He was quite dead", "It was quite the worst thing I ever saw".

It also means "partially". "It was quite nice", etc.

I think this comes from people using the phrase "It was quite good" in cases when they weren't _hugely_ impressed.

<comment><USER39> I read somewhere that American and British usage of "quite" is different — Americans use it to mean "entirely", while British use it to mean "fairly".

<comment><USER40> English English speaker here: quite is often used both ways. While it is defined as meaning "fairly" it is usually used to mean a little more than that ("the weather is quite nice" means somewhere between "the weather is fair" and "the weather is nice"), it is also used to mean entirely but usually in a sarcastic manner where the juxtaposition of the entirelyness of your intent and the fairlyness of the actually meaning of the word stands out ("oh, you are quite wrong there"). Also, in combination with a negative it usually means entirely (as in "the job isn't quite done yet").

These are far from hard & fast rules though. In spoken situations the intended meaning is generally obvious from tone, in written text it can be quite ambiguous.

There is at least one use where the word means both at once: when it is used on its own: Person one: "The man is an utter 'king imbecile", Person two: "Quite" or P1: "WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!!!!", P2: "Quite". Here it means "I agree (on a binary yes/no level) but I wouldn't put it that strongly". Similar to how "indeed" is often used.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I don't get the inclusion of "comprise". How are "to contain; include" and "to be composed of; consist of" opposites of one another? Consisting of or being composed of something definitionally means containing or including it, no?

<comment><USER29> Yes, these two definitions are very close to each other. "Comprise" does not belong here.

Others I would remove:

"quantum": It really means something more like "discrete", and discrete values might be small or large depending on one's perspective.

"splice": I find no support for the second definition.

Still, many of these are very nice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> my favourite type of word. although i refuse to accept the new definition of literally to mean figuratively. i want it taken back.

<comment><USER43> The word "literally" is an _intensifier_ ; do you have the same objection to the use of 'really', or 'actually'? 'Literally' was first used to mean "from the text" in the late 17th c. By the early 19th c. it was already fully co- opted as an intensifier.

<comment><USER37> It still doesn't feel like "literally" has been fully co-opted to me, at least not for anyone who isn't a teenager. I'd same the same about "actually", but I don't think I've even heard teenagers use it as a mere intensifier.

<comment><USER44> It's been fully co-opted everywhere except in the headspace of internet prescriptivists.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Slightly related: Homographic homophonic autantoyms [http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1104](http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1104)

</comment><comment><USER46> Very cool list. I little sad the word "peruse" mean to read over in an attentive or leisurely manner is not on the list it's one of my favorite autoantonyms.

</comment><comment><USER47> > temper (1) to soften; mollify (2) to strengthen (e.g. a metal)

Not contradictory because hardness and toughness are 2 distinct (though correlated) properties. Tempering [1] is basically a process that trades some hardness (i.e. soften) for a lot of toughness (i.e. strengthen).

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_\(metallurgy\))

</comment><comment><USER48> Shit

•very good, excellent; "cool".

•of poor quality; "bad".

[http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition- of/shit](http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/shit)

Edit: Credit?

Theres credit in the sense of receiving money, and money in the sense of money going out.

This probably makes more sense to people who have learnt double entry book keeping where credit and debits are reversed compared to popular usage.

<comment><USER49> "Shit" is an interesting case and not a straightforward auto-antonym. The meaning of shit hinges entirely on whether it is preceded by "the."

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Aladeen submission.

</comment><comment><USER51> I think list is missing a most interesting word of this type, 'nonplussed', which can mean either perturbed or not perturbed.

<comment><USER52> Never heard it used to mean "not perturbed"; I think it's just a misconstrual. The origin of the word is the French "non plus" meaning "no more": one can't think of anything else to say; one is speechless.

<comment><USER51> Now in common usage among Americans it seems to mean "not perturbed".

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at- play/nonplussed](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/nonplussed)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> Were auto-antonyms meant to have opposing meanings based on the context? Or do they become that way when people assume the meaning incorrectly?

For example, nonplussed originally means to be surprised. But a layman would think that to be 'plussed' must be to be surprised and nonplussed must be the opposite of that. Is this how auto-antonyms come to be?

<comment><USER54> It explains it a bit at the bottom of the article with dust (to dust furniture is to clean them, but to dust crops is to put dust on them); but it does seem to be around noun/verb context/usage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> They should add the very similar "cite" and "citation". You can be cited for bravery, or for speeding.

<comment><USER55> Maybe an encompassing description of "cite" is "to publicly recognize"

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> A lot of these are just words describing two-subject events. When there is a lease, someone is lending and someone is borrowing. Same for rent, bill, left, etc.

A lot of the others are present vs. past tense. After you put something where you want it, you want it to stay put.

</comment><comment><USER57> I like the 3rd definition of this word: [https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/trump](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/trump)

<comment><USER58> It also means fart in British English. It was quite funny that the US had a President Fart for about 3 minutes until the reality set in.

<comment><USER59> Similarly inverted: Johnson

<comment><USER52> A recent headline: "Floppy Johnson Can't Get an Election"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I like homeophone-antonyms -- words with antonyms that sound similar enough that if you slur a little bit, people won't be sure which you said.

Eg: I find your suggestion risible/reasonable.

</comment><comment><USER61> Wiktionary has a longer list:

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_contranyms](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_contranyms)

</comment><comment><USER62> Artifact: Intentional object created by humans Artifact: Unintentional/erroneous feature expressed in the creation of an object

</comment><comment><USER63> Wonder if NLP and machine learning algos are equipped to disambiguate the intended meaning of an autoantonym, with respect to its context.

<comment><USER64> Fairly sure a simple word2vec would cover the majority of cases.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Biweekly? One every two weeks or twice a week.

<comment><USER16> Biweekly means every two weeks. Twice a week is "semiweekly" although people often get this wrong. There's also "semimonthly" for twice a month.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> Hysterical: extremely funny or horrified.

</comment><comment> rkuykendall-com One I noticed at the grocery is pre-cooked. It means cooked for Turkeys and uncooked for Tortillas.

</comment><comment><USER67> This happened to me just now: In a two story building, "First Floor" can mean either one.

<comment><USER68> In the US, first floor is what Europeans call the ground floor. So I think it depends on where you are.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> How about nonplussed? It means to be surprised and confused, and also unperturbed.

</comment><comment><USER70> I had not heard of this term before!

And the inclusion of literally made me smile

<comment><USER71> The inclusion of what literally made you smile?

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> _Academic_ can mean

\- important enough to merit study

\- trivial enough to be dismissed

</comment><comment><USER73> I expected to find the word __blues __in it.

</comment><comment><USER74> literally is literally my favorite

</comment><comment> 1-6 set = to put in place, to replace

</comment><comment><USER75> Great list! My favorite is on it. The verb "sanction" is my "favorite" since the two meanings are both political and totally opposite. If you just read "the United States sanctioned the action" you have literally no idea if it means they expressly allowed it, no problem go right ahead, or if it means they were so mad they did something negative in response, oh, we're punishing you for that. I would say you can't even use the word for that reason.

<comment><USER76> The contradictory meaning of "sanction" is very recent and dates to the 90s (referring to trade restrictions on Iraq). Because it's so new it really annoys me (as opposed to, say, cleave).

When I hear it I still hear as it was used: we (was it the UN? US? I can no longer remember) sanction your restricting trade with this other country. Which on TV was abbreviated/blurred and thus within only a couple of years the standalone term had acquired the new meaning!

So at least to me your sentence seems clear: I don't feel like the meaning has changed quite as much as you do. But since you interpret it that way: perhaps I am wrong!

It's a shame the google ngram tool only consults text. TV is a rich source of neologisms.

<comment><USER77> Merriam Webster says you are off by a few hundred years: [https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/sanction](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/sanction)

<comment><USER76> I was excited to look up and see what I had gotten wrong but I don't see it in that entry. It lists the "first uses" as being definition 1 of noun and verb, i.e. precisely my example (UN sanction on restriction of trade).

They do quote (the wonderful) Molly Ivins, who passed away in 2007.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> Do you mean literally as in • actually; really or • figuratively; virtually ?

<comment><USER20> That one really needs to go away from the list; I refuse to accept "figuratively" as a valid definition for "literally", and will contradict / argue with / make fun of anyone who does so.

<comment><USER78> I sympathise, but for better or worse the OED reports that people have been using "literally" to mean "figuratively"* since at least 1769:

      > 1769   F. Brooke *Hist. Emily Montague* IV. ccxvii. 83 "He is a fortunate man to be introduced to such a party of fine women at his arrival; it is literally to feed among the lilies."
      > 1801   *Spirit of Farmers' Museum* 262   "He is, literally, made up of marechal powder, cravat, and bootees."
      > 1825   J. Denniston *Legends Galloway* 99   "Lady Kirkclaugh, who, literally worn to a shadow, died of a broken heart."
      > 1863   F. A. Kemble *Jrnl. Resid. Georgian Plantation* 105   "For the last four years..I literally coined money."
      > 1876   'M. Twain' *Adventures Tom Sawyer* ii. 20   "And when the middle of the afternoon came, from being a poor poverty-stricken boy in the morning, Tom was literally rolling in wealth."

[*] Or as they, put it, "Used to indicate that some (frequently conventional) metaphorical or hyperbolical expression is to be taken in the strongest admissible sense"

<comment><USER79> This style of argument is not persuasive. It can only tell us that people have been making an error since 1769 or something. It can't tell us that we should tolerate this error in well constructed writing. You're demonstrated nothing.

<comment><USER78> One may or may not like it, but that is _literally_ how language works.

<comment><USER20> Language is a democracy. When people say thing like "My head literally exploded", they are voting for "literally" to be a meaningless intensifier. When I make fun of them, I'm voting for it to have the meaning, "This actually happened".

Think about which way you _want_ the language to be, and then use your vote.

<comment><USER80> Democracy implies you both have equal votes and there is an outcome that can become the norm. They are using the word 'literally' in a way that imbues additional meaning (or arguably makes a new word) without seeking permission from society or community. You are using (mild, well-meant) social coercion to try to suppress that usage. I'd say it's more anarchy than democracy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> biweekly et al \- every other week \- twice a week

<comment><USER81> Bi- means two, so biweekly is every two weeks. Twice a week would be semiweekly (every half week), right?

<comment><USER66> Semiweekly is explicit. Biweekly is ambiguous.

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/on-biweekly- an...](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/on-biweekly-and- bimonthly)

Biweekly and bimonthly can mean the same thing because of the prefix bi-, which here can mean "occurring every two" or "occurring twice in."

<comment><USER29> The idiom is damaged by careless use. It reminds me of some friends who insist that "penultimate" means "ultimate"...

<comment><USER66> I don't think it is carelessness in this case. The prefix bi can have both meanings and ultimately it comes down to indeterminate parsing: (biweek)ly or bi(weekly), and thus can only be resolved by convention. But both usages have been long established (at least in the US) so we're stuck. This seems far different from the penultimate or literally or hysterical misuses that became a careless norm.

Semiweekly suffers from the same logical discrepancy, but unlike biweekly the convention is well established (though you hardly ever hear the term in the US. In fact before this thread I wouldn't have known which it meant. (other than definitely being the opposite of biweekly... so...))</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Platforms – Past, Present and Future - <AUTHOR> https://techpinions.com/platforms-past-present-and-future/42909 <comment><USER2> > — Closed creates markets (see Macintosh and iPhone);

What market created the iPhone?

And after reading all the "article", it is only another Kirk article about how good Apple is and how bad are the others

<comment><USER3> I think his point was that the closed iPhone created the smart phone market.

<comment><USER4> Except that smartphones existed before the iPhone, even App Stores did, but they were primarily business user focused.I mean, I had a Kyocera Palm Phone, which was one of the first PalmOS phones in 20011.</comment></comment></comment>