A majority of millennials now reject capitalism, poll shows - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/26/a-majority-of-millennials-now-reject-capitalism-poll-shows/?postshare=6201488310112857&tid=ss_tw <comment><USER2> In my experience, people who criticize this article are probably benefiting from "capitalism" (the majority of people on here, I reckon, do), meanwhile those struggling from inequality, not being here, will fail to have their voice heard. And so the echo chamber ensues.

That being said, capitalism and having things like free healthcare and education are hardly mutually exclusive. So I think the article's conclusion, "In an apparent rejection of the basic principles of the U.S. economy...", (more the poll) are a bit misleading.

Here's the actual poll, by the way:

[http://www.people-press.org/2011/12/28/little-change-in- publ...](http://www.people-press.org/2011/12/28/little-change-in-publics- response-to-capitalism-socialism/)

Thanks to twblalock for including the recent poll:

[http://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/harvard-iop- spring-2016-po...](http://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/harvard-iop- spring-2016-po..).

<comment><USER3> alright. I'll bite. I have made almost no money in the past year, and my bank account is nearly zero. I had a relatively middle class upbringing (but for reasons I'd rather not go into) my family is currently bankrupt.

Capitalism (in the free markets sense) is great. The problem is that gobs of money are stolen from poor people like me by the government through various processes, the biggest of which is inflation. This money is largely redistributed to cronies - the easiest of which to see are the big contractors. Less obvious are the banks and directly profit off of low- interest loans by flipping them to higher-interest borrowers, and even less obvious is wall street (whose coffers are filled by middle class people pushed into protecting their assets from inflation).

This is Capital-ism (in the marxian sense) -- the philosophy deciding that the pursuit of capital is a good unto itself. Unfortunately, the state has decided to attempt to 'harness' capitalism for its own idea of 'social good' which of course basically taints the non-zero-sum nature of free exchange with the zero-sum game of political hierarchy. The more this happens, the greater there will be inequality. It's a direct consequence of the first principles, and is unavoidable.

<comment><USER4> If you have a bank account of almost zero, inflation can't possibly be stealing money from you (unless you also have gobs of cash under a mattress somewhere).

<comment><USER5> Except that the prices of everything rise every year.

<comment><USER6> Everything?

True, some prices have risen. But, if I may, here are some fun equations to ponder.

1996 (Florida)

Minimum wage $4.25 Gallon of milk $2.73 Gallon of gas $1.26 Dozen eggs $1.31

2017 Minimum wage $8.10 Gallon of milk $3.31 Gallon of gas $2.41(was almost $4.00, if I remember correctly a few years ago?) Dozen eggs $1.59

1996

Electronics (to do work, using one's natural talents, for example) Expensive.

2017 Electronics: Much cheaper. Adjusting for inflation: much, much cheaper.

Of course, with electronics, there are too many intricacies to list, but here's a specific one. I bought a 512MB compact flash card in 2001, which set me back $249. I think the last one I bought was 2 years ago, or so. It was $60 for 16 GB. I make my living taking pictures. What would 16 GB worth of pictures have cost me in 2001?

I'm happy with these numbers. Simply put, let's think very carefully before using absolutes.

<comment><USER3> Since you've cherry picked your data to support an observation of no inflation, do you also support not increasing the minimum wage?

<comment><USER6> There is acknowledgement of inflation in every one of my examples, save certain electronics. I have no idea how to answer this question as I didn't deny prices increased.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This article is a lot of fluff. It opens with a survey that finds a majority of millenials do not agree with capitalism.

Then it tempers that with the acknowledgement that "capitalism means different things to different people" and that it's unclear if respondents favor another system more, or just don't support anything.

Finally, it sort of meanders around with different people weighing in on what this might mean or what the cause could be.

Nothing really...happened here. It would be nice to see an article (or survey) that does a few things better than this:

1\. Engages with both the material and millenials in an intellectually satisfying and nuanced way. Millenials are spoken about here not as members of the conversation, but as specimens. Furthermore, there's frankly not a lot of rigor in figuring out why millenials might not approve of capitalism other than the garden variety "first-pass" analyses you can read elsewhere.

2\. Establishes greater rigor in both terminology and discovery. Maybe "capitalism" should have been defined more rigorously in the study. Maybe questions should have been less leading and asked about alternatives if capitalism is not satisfactory to the respondents.

3\. Attempts to develop real conclusions instead of polarizing ones. Maybe the survey shouldn't have asked about "capitalism" at all, but instead asked about specific policies in a bipartisan manner. Avoiding the difficulties that make mistakes in my #2 point would be a significant improvement.

In fact, at this point I'm not sure if the goal was to honestly engage with the material or millenials at all at this point, or if there is an agenda for pushing out articles that paint huge demographics with such a broad brush. I don't _like_ feeling that way or questioning this, but it doesn't feel like a real attempt was made here. I honestly left this piece without being able to make any real conclusions. I'm a millenial myself, so take that for what it's worth.

</comment><comment><USER8> The cold war branding of anything communism/socialism as evil is being seen through as rhetoric, and more people are seeing merit of using blends of governance than pure free market. People 50 years ago had to support one system of face real consequences.

We can now debate the merit of concepts like "privatise luxury, socialise necessity" without being a 'commie bastard'. With the irony being socialist policy was far more in place and accepted 60 years ago when people were so anti-Russia and communism/socialism.

I really hope nations leaders can hear this because if they keep pushing people down with income disparity, access to a reasonable living and opportunity the pressure will build up for a bigger push-back, and potentially something dangerous if driven by anger/desperation rather than a common will to succeed.

I feel this is one of many strengths of democracy where it should allow pressure values to pop safely and society realign much earlier and easily than other government styles.

<comment><USER9> "The cold war branding of anything communism/socialism as evil is being seen through as rhetoric"

I can hardly believe that anyone who was alive during the 'cold war' would ever say that.

I grew up in an immigrant community in Canada, and most of my friends fled those disastrous, oppressive and totalitarian 'communist paradises' all over E. Europe, China, Vietnam, Cuba - and also - Sweden, by the way. Nordic countries were extremely socialist during the 1950's to mid 1980's.

If you were to try to say this in front of my friend's parents, they'd 'trigger', and kick you right out of the house in anger.

My uncle escaped Communist Hungary as a boy, literally, at night, running through the forest with soldiers chasing he and his mother.

I also remember the very real threat of a nuclear holocaust, in the 1970's to late 1980's it was a very, very real and tangible things.

You can try to 'debate', that's all fine, but communist utopian (read: dystopian) ideals seemed pushed by young naive people in every generation. It's almost as though they don't grasp the lessons of history.

There'll always be need for 'constant vigilance' against oppression by capital, fleeced consumers etc. - but socialism and especially communism are unmitigated disasters.

Communists are definitely 'dirty'. They represent, in reality - the world's greatest movement of mass murder and oppression. The paradox of the constant attraction to communism lies in their apparent goodwill: hey, who wouldn't want 'equality' and 'food for everyone' , yada, yada? Sounds great! Reality is a little harder and sometimes takes time to grasp.

"privatise luxury, socialise necessity". Defining 'luxury and necessity' is the root of that statement.

In Poland, just before the fall of communism, they had only Vanilla, Chocolate and 'Pink' ice-cream, because anything else was bourgeois (i.e. a luxury), and banned. In Bulgaria, there was no ice-cream. :)

Food is definitely on some level a 'necessity' and we definitely have not socialized that. Maybe we can make sure everyone gets healthcare without socializing too hard as well.

<comment><USER10> The problem with the theory of communism economics is we've only seen it implemented a few times, and they've all been terrible.

Communism, I believe, was to be implemented in a post industrial country. When Russia implemented it, they were pre-industrial, and during a massive war.

As an aside, Germany actually shipped, by train, an exiled Lenin to Russia to destabilize it during WWI.

<comment><USER11> The problem with communism is the same problem with unregulated capitalism: when you give extraordinary power to a small minority, everyone else suffers.

There's also the problem that violent revolutions are extremely risky, and are unlikely to result in anything but a dictatorship, exacerbating the previous point.

Most failed communist communist governments have these problems, as do most failed capitalist governments. Until you have a peaceful transition into a communist system properly hardened against corruption, you'll have little real reason to believe it is any more flawed than capitalist economies.

<comment><USER10> I don't think you can reasonably compare the suffering of any capitalist society with the suffering of Soviet Russia, especially in the 1930s.

<comment><USER12> You can try

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Confl...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Conflicts_and_wars_involving_the_VOC)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I think the rub is that the public debate confuses the triumph of the old British system of aristocracy and privilege with "capitalism". Just as they had the "corn laws" in the early 19th century, we have pharmaceutical import bans, region coding, the "dutch sandwich" and many many other _privileges_ to keep the winners winning with a minimum of effort.

If that's what passes for capitalism, who wouldn't reject it?

People spend too much time debating economic systems when the fundamental problem is a public neglect of equal justice under the law.

<comment><USER14> Equal opportunity, not "equal justice under law". Capitalism favors those who are lucky. It's nothing to do with law.

Edit: who wouldn't reject these things if they weren't benefiting from them (vast majority of people)?

<comment><USER13> It has everything to do with the law.

If a small bank got into the insurance business prior to financial services dereg of 1999, it would have been _crucified_ by the feds. Citibank and Travelers did exactly that, but since our justice and regulatory structures are pay-for-play, and their market capitalizations were high enough, they were able to proceed without controversy.

On an individual level, our prison population is disproportionately black, and disproportionately locked up on minor charges with an inadequate defense. A prison stay has far-reaching consequences on wealth, employment, and social status.

As a small business person, if I were to copy an idea from Apple (like, say rounded corners), they would sue me into the ground (I think their suit with Samsung is already over $1B). If they were to steal my idea, I would go broke on attorneys fees long before I ever got to a courtroom.

Equal opportunity isn't worth much without equal justice under the law. You'd have a good run, only to have the house take back all the winnings in the end.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Yes, because a society based on Marxism will be _so much better_. Because that is the big idea right? Marxism?

But these millenials who seem to think they are all smarter than everybody else forget one thing: of all the things we tried capitalism and democracy are the _least destructive_ forms of governing society.

Or as Jordan Peterson, a tenured psychologist, has stated several times already: "Those who claim 'With us this time it (Marxism) will become so much better' have no idea what they are talking about"

</comment><comment><USER16> So, what they really mean is that they want less globalization... rather then less capitalism... and we know many older voters also voted for less globalization... so it's like both young and old, stung by globalization and financial crises want to retrench?

<comment><USER17> That doesn't follow from the article. What it said, explicitly, was they want less _crony capitalism_.

Globalization itself isn't bad. Globalization where the playing field is rigged so that you need to be a billion-dollar corporation to participate in the spoils is.

<comment><USER16> On the one hand globalization is good --despite cries of "imperialism" globalization has done more to deliver people from abject poverty than anything else --I'd argue much better than if native socialism had taken place and disallowed "imperialistic" global companies from setting foot. Even the Doles and Chiquitas, much maligned for making banana republics out of countries, had a positive impact on those countries... See the alternatives, Bolivia, Paraguay, Myanmar, Nepal, etc. countries where these imperialistic global companies did not set foot and "exploit" the locals.

On the other hand, it does take away from the poor people in developed countries like the US, Japan, the UK, Australia, South Korea, etc. when their economies seek out cheaper labor to make their economies work. If we didn't have imported labor for farm workers for example, we might pay more for grocery goods, etc but we'd have people who are currently out of a job making some money working on farms --working on farms _isn't that much worse_ than working at a McD or Walmart. It's be kind of like grocery goods are in Japan --good quality, but expensive picked by their own farm workers -with the aid of automation.

In addition to that, Globalization has not only enabled seeking cheap labor but also seeking "cheap" regulation and government through globalization. And these kids of things either enable or exacerbate things like the financial crises.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is like those surveys that show a majority of Americans oppose Obamacare, but a majority favor almost all of the individual policies that comprise Obamacare when the word "Obamacare" does not appear in the survey.

What I would like to see is a survey that asks people their opinions on certain characteristics of capitalism, without mentioning the word "capitalism." I think the results would be very different.

<comment><USER19> But it's interesting to see that "capitalism" is becoming a dirty word, when in the cold-war era it was the opposite of "communism" which was a synonym for "evil".

<comment><USER18> Yet "socialism" is an even dirtier word according to the survey results. What we really have here are young people who are fed up with the low level of economic opportunity available to them, relative to the level of opportunity they expected to have.

<comment><USER15> You are not looking for the word "socialism". The word you are looking for has the highest approval rating in this poll. Then everything makes sense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> _Arise ye prisoners of starvation! Arise ye wretched of the Earth. For justice thunders condemnation, a better world in birth._

I mean, sure, most Millenials probably equate capitalism with neoliberalism and socialism with social-democracy, but hey, given that interpretation, yeah, neoliberalism has ruined quite a lot of our lives.

</comment><comment><USER21> Most people do not even understand what capitalism is thanks to the term becoming conflated with greed. And as the poll shows, not supporting capitalism doesn't mean supporting socialism.

<comment><USER22> Keynesian demand side capitalism has proved to be great.

Unregulated supply side economics appears to lead to massive exploitation and monopolies.

That being said socialism and capitalism work together everyday in America. See highways, education, plumbing, etc.

It has been argued that Socialism/government regulation is needed for Capitalism to work optimally.

<comment><USER21> If we are going to call every government with a highway system and a free healthcare system socialist the word becomes meaningless.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> (2016)

I'm curious what the results would be for "free enterprise", "free markets", or "private property".

</comment><comment><USER24> Issues it would be helpful to unbundle when talking about capitalism:

Contract law. "Capitalism" here usually means private voluntary agreements are very sacred or absolutely sacred.

Property law. "Capitalism" here usually means a rule of first possession.

Tax law. "Capitalism" here usually means a presumption against taxation, especially if redistributive in purpose.

Limited liability. "Capitalism" here usually means possibility of absentee investors.

Fiduciary duties. "Capitalism" here usually means duty to maximize shareholders' economic value.

Antitrust law. "Capitalism" here, as term is used by self-perceived opponents, usually refers to corporate bigness.

Etc.

Was Thomas Jefferson capitalist? He hated bigness in all forms.

Was Thomas Paine capitalist? He thought rule of first possession was useful because easy to administer but proposed something akin to universal basic income.

Important to be clear, as many others have noted in the comments.

</comment><comment><USER25> The problem with whishing for socialism in a divided democracy is that the owners will align with any dictator available to keep what they gained. So higher taxation and redistribution within legal boundaries is discussable. Disowning is destroying the democracy and a sure way to start a civill war.

</comment><comment><USER26> I don't think this is anything particularly new. There's a pretty old saying (that is constantly mis-attributed[1]):

> If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a > conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.

Within a capitalist society, young people on the whole have less, but have to work for everything. After a decade or two working to earn stuff, you feel like other people should do that too. You can chase the reasons why down a million psychological rabbit holes.

That said, there's no reason why this would not be _more true_ now than it ever has been before. Adjusting for inflation, we're paid the same as our parents but houses and rent is 10× what it was for them. (At least in the UK) the post-war decade-long housing boom flooded the market with cheap but good stock. Councils used to build for their own social care, and these eventually went on the market too. Now we only get mega-developers holding land until they get approval for high-density crappy houses.

That's a very distinct shift from socialised building projects to capitalist building. And it's skewed our entire economy, and really hobbles anybody on a lower income without a house to inherit.

[1]: [http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart- head/](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/)

</comment><comment><USER27> Capitalism per se isn't wrong, but becomes extremely dangerous if left uncontrolled as it is today. What is _very_ wrong and dangerous with capitalism is the lack of a line dictating when an entity should stop amassing power and wealth, especially when limited resources are involved. You can print infinite money but you can't create infinite land as the planet surface isn't infinite, which one day will lead us to the point when a few extremely rich people will own the entire Earth surface.

</comment><comment><USER28> So much no true Scotsman about capitalism in here it's not funny.

</comment><comment><USER29> "The Reformer is always right about what's wrong. However, he's often wrong about what is right."

― G.K. Chesterton

</comment><comment><USER30> It seems like publishing standards have really sank.

<comment><USER31> Capitalism at work!

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> My grandfather had to live under communist rule. Capitalism is fantastic compared.

</comment><comment><USER33> Any political/economic system will have individual actors that destroy the lives and wellbeings of others.

if your system can prevent these people from wielding such power, i'd like to hear how!

<comment><USER34> Part 1: Caps on Exec pay - 25x avg salary for first x # of employees, as you add more employees over your baseline that multiplier goes up for example every 1000 employees = 1x so hire 10k and now you're able to earn 35x median wage -- i.e. more employees = more money for execs, as wages increase that also = more money for execs. That handles the corporate side of the corruption.

Part 2: Enact the Anti-corruption act in every governmental capacity from mayorships to congress to ban all money in politics.

Part 3: Members of congress can earn no more than the average salary of an American Citizen, and their healthcare plan is--the same as the average American w/ no perks above what American's get.

Part 4: Term limits for congress, not life-time bans, but you can only server in congress non-congruent terms, meaning you can't serve back to back, someone else has to take your place for a term. More lifeblood bled into congress can't be a bad thing.

<comment><USER35> There's a major problem with term limits. Let's say we fix the House of Representatives so that instead of constantly having to run for (re)election with two year terms, we change them to 4 year terms but limit them to 2. Ignoring the major changes that the committee chair/assignment system would require, no longer having a wide range of seniority, the entire body would suffer because the most experienced any legislator could be would be those elected to their second term, i.e. years 5-8 of their House career.

Why is this not good? Who also resides in Washington DC and interacts with legislators, with virtually no limits on their length of involvement in this game? Lobbyists. You set up a system where the Legislators are effectively perpetual newbies with an extremely broad scope of issues they must interact with and influence for the best. Lobbyists with just a decade of experience will know far more than any legislator. There's already a lot of legislation is introduced that's provided verbatim from lobbyists... expect that to get worse, not better, with an even more inexperienced elected officials.

We already have a system of term limits, it's called electing someone else. Don't make it impossible to keep an excellent legislator who has the broad support of their constituents; make it easier to elect someone new to replace a bad one. With the insane costs of campaigning and getting elected, we'd all be better served by simply reducing that barrier to a minimum. Publicly funded campaigns also remove the influence of financial contributions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Sure they reject capitalism when they are asked, but will gladly buy an iPhone or other consumer electronics designed to fail within a few years of normal usage.

They will gladly post all their private information to Facebook for that warm fuzzy feeling of people liking their updates, while they are being datamined and their profiling sold to advertisers.

But when asked, then sure everyone is against capitalism.

</comment><comment><USER37> Reject taxation and monopolization, not capitalism.

<comment><USER38> Personally, I'm okay with two of those.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Maybe the way to read this is "willingness to embrace innovative alternatives to the stagnation of current financial systems"

</comment><comment><USER40> This article seems to be based on a small sample size. As an anecdotal evidence, most millenials that I've met (I'm 29) are very pro-capitalism but are liberals. In 2017 you should not mix the two - you can have a capitalist economy that provides universal healthcare and education, and eventually even UBI.

<comment><USER41> The article is paraphrasing a poll that was done by Harvard Institute of Politics, that had 771 18-29 year old responders. I think that is a reasonable sample size for this kind of poll.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Millennials are thinking Capitalism is a hindrance to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

</comment><comment><USER42> Millennials are confused; Unlike capitalism, globalization is zero-sum;

</comment><comment><USER43> Like most arguments about "isms" that do not have a single, rigorous definition accepted by everybody, debates about "capitalism" are pretty useless.

Karl Marx means one thing by the word, Ayn Rand means another, most other people in between have other ideas (or vague fuzzy feelings) about it, and yet everybody talks as if their own idea matches someone else's.

</comment><comment><USER44> A majority of millennials are idiots. News at 11.

<comment><USER45> Would you please not post uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN?

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Did we not learn that Capitalism failed a long time ago? Why else will we have an Insurance system that is deeply incentivized to not cover your conditions? Why else will we have an Education system that is deeply incentivized to profit off your education and put you in debt for your life?

<comment><USER18> You may not like capitalism, but it is an indisputable fact that capitalist societies have higher standards of living, including for the poor, than societies that use any other economic system. By that standard, it's more successful than any other system, and hardly a failure, despite what other problems is has.

By the way, the problems you describe about insurance (I assume you mean health insurance) and the high cost of education are not characteristics of most capitalist economies. The United States is an outlier in those areas. Plenty of other capitalist countries have universal health care and free education. Plenty of others have universal health care and non-free education. Only the US has the double-whammy of expensive health care and expensive education.

<comment><USER46> How does Universal Health care and Free education play into the principles of capitalism?</comment></comment></comment>


WANT A CHEAP 2,000X MICROSCOPE? JUST FOLD THIS $0.50 PIECE OF PAPER - <AUTHOR> http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/31/want-a-cheap-2000x-microscope-just-fold-this-0-50-piece-of-paper/

<comment><USER2> Previous submission, much discussion, and less shouting:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7377213](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7377213)

Other submissions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7367503](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7367503) (one comment with reference)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363305](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363305)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7385509](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7385509)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407449](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407449)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7495183](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7495183)

</comment><comment><USER3> Please don't submit titles in allcaps.</comment>


Literature Mapped into Islands and Cities - <AUTHOR> https://artsexperiments.withgoogle.com/ocean-of-books?latitude=-39.2323&longitude=-111.3635&zoom=1.00&s=08 <comment><AUTHOR> each country is an author, each city is a book. Distance correlated to similarity on Web</comment>


Homes should not be abandoned after a big nuclear accident - <AUTHOR> http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2017/november/nuclearaccident.html <comment><USER2> A lot of the response focuses on the questionable morality of making this decision for the people who will be affected, and trading dollars for lives.

Maybe we should shortcut that whole issue. Unlike most instances of pollution, we have a case where a single entity is clearly responsible for the contamination. That entity should be required to offer a buy-out of all property in the affected area at pre-accident market prices. They can then resell at whatever price they can obtain. If the damage caused by the contamination is small, the difference between the prices will be small, and their loss will be small. If their victims don't think it's worth moving at all, the loss will be zero since nobody will accept the offer.

Something tells me that this idea will be rejected as being too expensive, which should be quite telling.

<comment><USER3> > market prices

I would expect a rather large premium to be associated with a forced sale of any kind. Remember, if they where willing to sell at market rates they would have been sold. I am of the opinion that forced sales like this should provide ~2-3x market rates to reduce the need for such sales, and provide for the loss of property like cars which need to be abandoned if contaminated.

<comment><USER4> They could just be forced to make the offer instead, and if the original owner is willing to accept the damage, they can refuse to sell.

<comment><USER5> Then they are going to make offers at post-accident-market rates not pre- accident-market...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't think this analysis is helpful to nuclear. As a big nuclear supporter and someone in general agreement that there was an over evacuation at Fukushima, setting a nine month life expectancy standard is way too high. At that rate, very large numbers of people, maybe 10% are going to be getting cancer, not to mention birth defects. On average, about 2 people live in a housing unit, so you're trading off 18 months of life, substantial suffering from cancer, substantial stress and worry, and reproductive effects for a single housing unit. This unreasonableness masks an underlying reasonableness if the number were more like a few weeks or a month.

<comment><USER7> The critical bit is that people aren't being expected to shave a few months off their life dying peacefully in their sleep in their late eighties in return for retaining their own home, they're trading a significant proportional increase in some very unpleasant cancers curtailing their life much earlier.

The article doesn't help fudging it by highlighting life expectancy differentials which are down to socioeconomic status and patterns of higher risk behaviour. Blackpool's lower life expectancy isn't random like background radiation; you can live in Blackpool _without_ experiencing a significant threat to your health provided you avoid the alcohol consumption problems more prevalent amongst people that live there.

<comment><USER8> There are two parts to the analysis though; this chain sounds like it is comparing death from radiation to completely normal life.

The comparison in the article is death from radiation vs death from evacuation. Being compulsorily and unexpectedly evacuated from your home is catastrophic. My memory of Fukashima is that experience of living as an evacuee looked very woeful.

If people lose 12 months to stress and whatnot from an evacuation, is losing 9 months to cancer really that much worse? I've lost a relative to cancer, the quality of his life was actually quite high until the last month. I've seen chronic depression do much more damage. I'm not advocating either, but if there is a choice to be made I don't think it is clear.

<comment><USER6> Fukishima was (maybe) unusual though in that the nuclear accident was in the context of a much larger disaster. The original Japanese advice to stay put and turn off the HVAC was generally pretty good. Radiation from a nuclear reaction decays very rapidly once the reaction stops, and so the worst part of the exposure is going to be in the first days after the accident. Depending on the structure you're in, it's generally healthier to wait a few days before moving and exposing yourself to radiation in transit. For people in a hospital, that goes double, as long as the power is on, and it's possible to filter the air intake. Hospitals are generally big concrete buildings, so staying in one is pretty safe.

In the case of Fukishima, the people being evacuated because of radiation were only a small portion of the casualties from the Tsunami, and so the emergency services were seriously stressed. I'd imagine that evacuating those people would have gone much more smoothly if it hadn't been for all of the other Tsunami damage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> People have children. The "think about the children" argument I'm making here is that the description of the calculation does not mention the effects of radiation on the life expectancy of future generations and does not describe a rationale for ignoring these effects in its calculus.

I'm not saying those effects can or cannot be ignored because I'm not an expert. But I'm skeptical because the analysis does not address human reproduction.

<comment><USER10> Is there any evidence of reduced "life expectancy of future generations" for radiation exposure at the levels discussed? If not, then that may be why it was not addressed.

While I don't know if there is or not, these studies of the results of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs[0] shows that the effects were limited to those currently pregnant, and without 1200 meters of ground zero of the blast. With no effect on the future children born to parents exposed to ionizing radiation of those levels.

[0] - [http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph241/yapa2/](http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph241/yapa2/)

 _" The many studies that were conducted after the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki determined that some of the risks that the public perceives to be associated with radiation exposure are non-existent, while others are in fact matters of concern. The cancer risk for children who were in-utero when their mothers were exposed is higher than it would be for others without this exposure, but children who were conceived after their parents were exposed to radiation had no increased cancer risk. Similarly for both birth defects and mental retardation, it was found that in-utero exposure possibly increased the rate of incidence of these conditions, but results from all studies are inconclusive, except for the case of pregnant mothers within 1200m of the hypocenter. All of the in-utero children born to these mothers experienced mental retardation. All three of these cases found that there is no increased risk of these conditions if the parents of the child were exposed to the ionizing radiation of the atomic bomb (child was not conceived at the time of the exposure)."_

<comment><USER9> The US atomic bombing of Japan used 64kg of Uranium (Little Boy and 6.2kg of Plutonium (Fat Man). Each nuclear reactor at Fukishima used tons of Uranium or Plutonium fuel. Each reactor generated tons of radioactive waste each year it was in operation.

The amount of radioactive material involved in the 1945 events is several orders of magnitude smaller than at Fukishima. Perhaps there are robust cross examined theories indicating that the events are comparable. I am skeptical that the events are similar enough in important ways (i.e. ways other than occurring in Japan) that a single anecdote is sufficient basis to claim support for the proposed policy.

<comment><USER11> Totally different kind of Uranium. You can't just compare kg and tonnage.

<comment><USER9> Nuclear fuel is typically 3.5% to 5% U235 [1],[2] Fukushima had six reactors of 1100 MW each. A 1000 MW reactor uses approximately 27 tonnes of fresh fuel per year [1] equating to 945 kg of U235/reactor/year. Fukushima has six reactors and was commissioned in 1971 (forty years prior to the 2011 event). For comparison Little Boy used 64kg of U235.[4]

The scale of radioactive materials are orders of magnitude different.

[1]: [http://www.world-nuclear.org/nuclear-basics/how-is- uranium-o...](http://www.world-nuclear.org/nuclear-basics/how-is-uranium-ore- made-into-nuclear-fuel.aspx)

[2]: Fukushima 3 where the failure occurred used MOX fuel containing Plutonium as well as Uranium.

[3]: [http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety- and-...](http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and- security/safety-of-plants/appendices/fukushima-reactor-background.aspx)

[4]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy)

<comment><USER12> Was 100% of the Fukushima fuel fissioned and vaporized into the atmosphere? How is this a useful comparison?

<comment><USER9> No.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> So, after some authority fucks up and explodes a nuclear reactor complex, I'm expected to trust that everything is perfectly fine?

Yeah, no. At Fukushima, the civil authorities didn't know what had even happened for awhile.

Academic analysis of risk falls apart on the ground. What happened in places like the World Trade Center and Grenfell tower, and minor high rise disasters that I've experienced first hand have taught a clear lesson: know your surroundings, know all of the egress routes, proceed with caution, and get the hell out.

<comment><USER14> >I'm expected to trust that everything is perfectly fine.

Sure, you shouldn't be forced to stay. But by the same token the government shouldn't be able to force you to leave your perfectly safe home and possessions just for the sake of giving them some "caring" PR.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Since they seem to be happy to put a price on months of human lives that are not their own, how about instead they just factor the expected costs of accidents and relocations into the cost of nuclear power and tax the utility accordingly. Why is it always the little guy who has to get fucked when shit goes wrong?

<comment><USER16> You're describing the Price-Anderson Act: [http://www.naic.org/cipr_topics/topic_nuclear_liability_insu...](http://www.naic.org/cipr_topics/topic_nuclear_liability_insurance.htm)

<comment><USER15> Was not aware of that! I was being partly sarcastic. The problem with any such system is that there will be people whose job is to deny claims. Of course there would also be some people trying to make unjustified claims too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> No matter what the public policy is, some percentage of people will leave. And that will shrink the local economies, and that will act as an incentive for even more people to leave. To make things right for those who stay, the government would have to subsidize the local economies, and even that would be a fraction of what things were like before the disaster.

The reality is a nuclear accident causes massive asset destruction, it touches people who had absolutely no say in the economic transaction, and probably no meaningful political say either.

Pretty much the only fair solution, is equal unfairness. Part of the "not in my backyard" is because the track record is, local residents are disproportionately impacted, and there is no where near enough support for them, while people far away are minimally impacted. This is trust damaging, and incentivizes people to vote against nuclear power: not in my backyard = I do not trust you to make me whole in the unlikely event there is an accident.

</comment><comment><USER8> A lot of the responses drift away from the article to broader issues of nuclear power - cool. But it would be wise to focus on this point:

After nuclear accidents, governments are compulsorily ejecting people from their homes.

This isn't the end of the world, but it is clearly an extreme action. There should be some standard of evidence that they are held to before they do this. Maybe most of the people would leave anyway.

The question needs to b asked. The bloke in the article is making a point that evacuations might be worse than radiation. This is a point that seemed likely to me after reading about Fukashima.

It is possible we are facing a scenario where: * Governments are ejecting people from their homes * This is leading to worse outcomes than if they where allowed to live there peacefully or leave at their own speed

If this is the case, we really need clearer standards to stop governments acting this way.

</comment><comment><USER18> Does this take into account the social stigma of living in the affected zone? It could easily turn to family-registry (koseki tohon) based discrimination. For instance, it's not difficult to imagine someone's parents being opposed to marriage with someone living in that zone, reminiscent of the historic discrimination against the _burakumin_.

Anyone doing agriculture there will face difficulties selling the produce elsewhere in the country. Anyone depending on tourism is going to struggle.

People are going to mistrust governmental assurances that it's safe to be somewhere, suspecting various political motivations.

How about the simple question of development: investment in the area is going to be very cool.

</comment><comment><USER19> It would be interesting to see this vs cost of relocation, which I believe has been enormously high (as has the emotional cost).º

Different agencies price the cost of a single life ("statistical live value") differently. For instance the US department of transportation won't install a highway guard rail that would save one life per year if the installation costs more than $9.6M. FAA $5.8M. (and TSA clearly 0 while for DoD it's clearly enormous).

º Even people who stay will suffer psychological problems, in part due to poor understanding of physics, and that isn't taken account of in the summary. Then again some people near phone towers suffer imaginary fears too. The original article is paywalled so sorry to the authors if these topics are discussed.

</comment><comment><USER20> I say have the courage of your convictions, study authors, and volunteer to relocate to the next nuclear accident site.

</comment><comment><USER21> In another news, people should duck and cover when there is lava coming in your way.

</comment><comment><USER22> Sure. Hard to think clearly and break from the herd reaction "BUT BUT BUT IT'S NUCULAR, EVERYBODY PANIC!!!"

<comment><USER23> Please don't use allcaps for emphasis: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> 20 years later a child has some sort of disability and you are ready to kill yourself, even if the disability is not from radiation. Never mention cancers or even coughs--"it might be from radiation, I'm probably gonna die." And that's if he's right, a big if, especially when dealing with lives.

Thanks, but no, Mr Scientist.</comment>


IBM Sues Zillow over Multiple Charges of Patent Infringement - <AUTHOR> https://www.inman.com/2019/09/18/ibm-sues-zillow-over-multiple-charges-of-patent-infringement/ <comment><USER2> If you can't innovate, sure for your dinner I guess.</comment>


Nokia Had A Stunning Q3 In North America, With Device Volume Up 367% - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/29/nokia-had-a-stunning-q3-in-north-america-with-device-volume-up-367-from-last-year/

<comment><USER2> The percentages are quite high, but remember that they're starting from such a small installed base, so a jump in the hundreds of thousands makes a big difference.</comment>


Show HN: jsFiddle++, a better jsFiddle - <AUTHOR> http://jsfpp.tomodo.me/

<comment><USER2> What about Dart language? Learn Dart has been on my todo list, jsFiddle++ would be a fun playground to do so

<comment><AUTHOR> AFAIK Dart isn't very widely used, but I'll check if there's a JS compiler for that.

<comment><USER2> I believe you are right, it is't widely used. But, if you ever find yourself wanting to support it, I'll point you in the right direction: [http://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and- running/contents/ch...](http://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and- running/contents/ch04-tools-dart2js.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Great tool! The page took a while to load though...

</comment><comment><USER4> Nice, I was looking for something like that!

<comment><USER4> Btw. Just tried LESS, and seems like there is some problem. Here's my simple LESS code test: @color : "green";

div { border: 1px solid @{color}; }

<comment><USER5> i'm not familiar with the syntax you have here. i tried it without the quotes on green and without the curly brackets on the color and it worked for me

[http://jsfpp.tomodo.me/4xaMK/](http://jsfpp.tomodo.me/4xaMK/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> awesome work! One note though, I tried running an example but the JS didn't load :(

</comment><comment><USER7> Could be very useful.

</comment><comment><USER8> nice. what about github integration?

<comment><AUTHOR> jsFiddle already has support for forking, but I guess you could add something like "fork to Gist". I'll look into that, thanks for the feedback!</comment></comment>


Easily Transfer Snapshots Between Accounts - <AUTHOR> https://digitalocean.com/company/blog/easily-transfer-snapshots-between-accounts/

<comment><USER2> So this is transferring a server to someone else basically, not sharing a setup (which is the use case I really want) - move instead of copy.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, the copy thing would be handy.</comment></comment>


Kickstrap 1.0.0 launches with 'apps' and themes - <AUTHOR> http://getkickstrap.com/

<comment><USER2> Two minor things: (1) that survey prompt keeps popping up even though I've already filled it out, and (2) the survey should open in a new window so I don't need to click the back button multiple times just to get back to your site.

Other than those minor nitpicks I like what I see so far.</comment>


Show HN: Clean & Simple Shopping List (my first iPhone app) - <AUTHOR>

I made learning Objective C and iOS development my New Year's resolution for 2014 and my first app was just approved to the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clean-simple-shopping-list/id826827076
It's yet another shopping list app, I know. I really just wanted to build something that I would find useful, no matter how many others are out there already. But I learned a lot while making it and I'd love to hear your feedback (positive or negative). It's free, has no ads, and is open source: https://github.com/gschwarzer/Shopping-List
Thanks! <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clean-simple-shopping- list/i...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clean-simple-shopping- list/id826827076)

[https://github.com/gschwarzer/Shopping- List](https://github.com/gschwarzer/Shopping-List)

</comment><comment><USER2> I don't like when apps put badges on the icon that don't go away but otherwise I like it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Fair enough. The badge does go away though when your list has either no items or all items are crossed off. But I could make it an optional setting in the next update. Thanks for the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> How did you go about learning Obj C and iOS development? Books? Online classes? YouTube?

<comment><AUTHOR> I started with the Big Nerd Ranch Objective C book ([http://www.amazon.com/dp/032194206X](http://www.amazon.com/dp/032194206X)), then my job paid for a week-long class put on by Big Nerd Ranch. I can highly recommend both. I learned a ton and watching the Stanford iTunes U course on iOS development makes a lot more sense now.</comment></comment>


Apple details J.A.R.V.I.S., the Apache Mesos framework that runs Siri - <AUTHOR> https://mesosphere.com/blog/2015/04/23/apple-details-j-a-r-v-i-s-the-mesos-framework-that-runs-siri/ <comment><USER2> My favorite part is that moving Siri to Mesos actually had a noticeable impact on Siri's response time. It didn't just make the lives of Apple engineers easier but improved the product as well. For every one of the more than 700 million iPhone users worldwide.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there a link to the actual presentation?</comment>


Wine 3.0 Released - <AUTHOR> https://www.winehq.org/news/2018011801 <comment><USER2> Photoshop CC 2018 works on Wine 3.0. Screenshots [1] and original post [2].

[1] [https://imgur.com/a/k0HI0](https://imgur.com/a/k0HI0)

[2] [https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ql4kl/the_screensho...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ql4kl/the_screenshots_of_photoshop_cc_2018_64bit_on/)

<comment><USER3> This is what I've been waiting for. As a developer, I love developing on Linux, I just flow better with it, servers are Linux as well etc...

But I do a lot of design work and this is where I miss all the Adobe apps. I've found a good workflow with inkscape and it serves me well.

Using a Windows VM with the Adobe cc suite is fine, but it's not as clean as having it (somewhat) natively available.

Great work Wine team.

<comment><USER4> I ran Linux natively as my sole workstation OS for nearly 10 years, and spent a lot of that time tinkering with WINE, including developing and submitting some patches, but eventually I had to give up because advanced things like Photoshop were too spotty in Wine and too slow in VMs.

My solution was ultimately to set up an Arch-based KVM hypervisor with a Windows 10 VM running as the main "workstation", with USB + GPU PCI passthrough and paravirt. The hypervisor also runs Linux VMs, from which I do development work via VNC and/or SSH.

This is the most convenient workflow situation for me, and allows the best of both worlds. It essentially makes Windows act like a desktop environment for a Linux box while maintaining practically-native overall performance for all workloads, including gaming and photo/video editing. It also grants the admin convenience of virtualized environments, since I can use zvols to snapshot everything at once, place clean resource limitations on each environment, etc.

It would only not work for Linux-based graphics development, but even then, you can get a second GPU and pass it through to another VM, running on a separate display.

Before I got the hypervisor set up, I ran Windows on the hardware with Linux VMs hosted in VirtualBox. The biggest issue with this (aside from the general shame and guilt of using Windows on the hardware) was that Windows would decide it wanted to turn off for MS-enforced updates and bring everything down. Now, Windows is separate and it can crash, reboot, or hurt itself all it wants, and rarely causes any real loss.

<comment><USER5> Are there instructions anywhere on how to get started with something like this?

<comment><USER6> Basically you need relativly new hardware. IOMMU is a must. (for intel)

Here is a guide from some other user: [https://github.com/saveriomiroddi/vga- passthrough](https://github.com/saveriomiroddi/vga-passthrough) was really helpful but I needed to give up since my mainboard was too stupid and my graphic card didn't worked as I wanted. I could install the OS but it bootlooped after installing any driver.

I used an asus b350-m mainboard with a AMD Ryzen 5 1500x + a radeon r9 280 (thaiti based basically the same as an hd7970) and it didn't worked since my mainboard only had one pci express 16x which meant that the "better" card needed to be used for the main os. You can use the first slot card for the os but it might not always work (hardly hardware dependant). Having a good mainboard is way more important for it to work.

<comment><USER7> This is a neat solution, but why is OVMF required (according to the guide)?

<comment><USER6> well you just need an efi firmware and I guess ovmf is the only one that the guy knew of (I actually do not now of any other aswell). if you boot qemu without any firmware it would emulate a real mode device which probably make it impossible to access the device correctly. (not verified or tested, since my rig never worked). but you can install OVMF on any new linux distribution. and you probably don't need to patch it (at least on ubuntu 17.10, fedora 27+, arch linux...)

Edit: Arch wiki (the best) writes something about it: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Setting_up_an_OVMF- based_guest_VM)

> OVMF is an open-source UEFI firmware for QEMU virtual machines. While it's > possible to use SeaBIOS to get similar results to an actual PCI passthough, > the setup process is different and it is generally preferable to use the EFI > method if your hardware supports it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Grats to the Wine team!

In all my years of computers, few projects have impressed me as much as Wine. It still feels like it shouldn't be possible, and yet, it works wonderfully.

<comment><USER9> Really? WSL works almost without any hiccups right NOW. That's not impressive?

<comment><USER10> Bit of a difference porting well documented APIs with multiple open source implementations compared to a compete clean-room reverse engineering of a closed system, quirks and all.

<comment><USER11> What are the multiple open source implementations of the Linux API?

<comment><USER12> FreeBSD has one.

<comment><USER13> And illumOS / SmartOS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Awesome, D3D 11 support is a great milestone :)

Looking forward to version 3.11

Does it support The Sims 2 in the mean time? (all versions here are garbage related to a 256 vertices crash: [https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1942))

<comment><USER15> I'm also curious if Overwatch works in this release. I couldn't get it to launch with Wine Staging on MacOS a few weeks ago.

<comment><USER16> It works on Linux, but Wine on macOS can't support DX11 games, because macOS has crippled outdated OpenGL. You should use Linux, where Wine can use OpenGL fully, since it needs many features of OpenGL up until 4.5 to support D3D11, and macOS is limited to 4.1 and lower only.

macOS doesn't support Vulkan either, so DX12 and Vulkan based Windows games won't work there in Wine as well (while they can work in Wine on Linux).

TL;DR: Linux is a much better option for gaming in Wine than macOS.

<comment><USER17> I think few will switch from macOS over a video game not working.

<comment><USER16> Actually quite a lot of macOS refugees switch to Linux because of gaming precisely. Simply because Mac hardware is underpowered, and issues like the above with bad support in Wine because of crippled OpenGL and no Vulkan.

<comment><USER17> What data is there about this? Also, underpowered how?

<comment><USER16> There are no Macintoshes with high end GPUs as far as I know. That already makes it underpowered in general.

And reasons for switching to Linux are from discussions with Wine users. If you are one, you should have encountered this topic already. But I assume you aren't using Wine for gaming, thus your question.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I love Wine, but I have some rather obscure apps that I'd like to run that just refuse to run in any version of it (mainline, Crossover, Winebottler, manually extracted copies of Cider from macOS-ported games...) As-is, I have to run these in a Windows VM to get them to work at all.

It's a lot of hassle, especially because the least-working Windows programs are _also_ some of the tiniest little utilities where they display maybe one GUI screen, but also take command-line parameters. So I usually have to copy files for them to interact with _into_ the VM, open cmd.exe to run the utility on the files, interact with the utility GUI, then copy the files back out. Wine would make this workflow a lot better!

What I'm wondering is: if I don't care about being a Wine "purist", and I have a legitimate copy of Windows laying around, is there any way to _dissect_ that copy of Windows for its files (drivers, helper executables, etc.) and wrap them around a Windows EXE, such that Wine will be using _as few Wine implementations of DLLs as possible_ , rather than just the minimum required to get the individual EXE vaguely working? Is there a way to start off a Wine install with "maximum compatibility" like this?

I really do wish there was some equivalent of Windows' WSL: a kernel-side ABI shim for Linux/macOS that _can_ run a complete copy of Windows (minus the kernel) inside it, including services like GDI—which you could then use an RDP client to connect to—but where the entrypoint is running an individual EXE, and those services are only started when clients attempt to connect to/use them. If I can make Wine like _that_ , that'd be a dream.

Alternatively, Linux+macOS support for running Windows Docker applications, plus support for containerizing graphical Windows applications, would largely obviate my need for Wine.

<comment><USER19> Funny enough, when I was younger and more naive, I attempted to write a Linux kernel implementation of Win32, starting with a PE binfmt and linker. Never got much of interest working because I had trouble dealing with syscalls.

But I realized over time that it wasn't actually a good idea. Linux and Windows have one hell of an impedance mismatch. Windows distributes the user- space and kernel-space dramatically differently from Linux. The Linux VFS layer is greatly different than the Windows filesystem layer, and related semantics. Windows likes UTF-16 APIs, Linux likes UTF-8. They do threading differently, Winsock is extremely broken, named pipes don't work like netlink sockets, Windows is a little bit country, Linux is a little bit Rock'n'roll...

I'm sure someone with more experience can list off more. Even the general ecosystems are entirely different. A lot of things on Windows are kind of 'defacto.' Like, wintab32.

At the end of the day, the hacks that Wine does to make things work are astoundingly small compared to the massive undertaking they have reimplementing Windows in a fashion that is useful. You could go in with the logic of trying to be 'as Windows as possible' and use as much of the Windows libraries as you can, but how are you going to deal with things at that level, when Windows puts GDI and RPC in the kernel and Linux has it as userspace daemons?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Lazy question:

After migrating from macOS to Linux last spring, there is one application I still miss. It is available for Windows and macOS only.

I tried to get it work with Wine, but the installer complained about missing .Net 4.5.1+ So I installed it, but the installer still complained.

Then I read that Wine cannot emulate Windows 7 + .Net 4.5.1; so I switched to emulation mode to Windows Server 2003R2. Now, the installer complained about only supporting Windows 7 or newer.

So, does anybody know if Wine 3.0 supports Windows 7 + .Net 4.5.1?

(I know, I could do the research myself. Don't bother, unless you know off the tip of your head.)

EDIT: Almost forgot - congratulations to all the developers!!!

<comment><USER21> .Net 4.5[1] seems to be well supported at this point. Windows 7 has partial support[2], it really depends what pieces of the windows API are in use.

What is the name of the app?

[1][https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=25478) [2][https://test.winehq.org/data/](https://test.winehq.org/data/)

<comment><USER20> Thank you very much!

The application is called SwyxIt! (the exclamation mark is part of the name). It is a VoIP / Softphone application.

Can be found here: [https://www.swyx.de/products/support/support- downloads.html](https://www.swyx.de/products/support/support-downloads.html)

I hope Wine 3.0 will be available on openSUSE Tumbleweed soon. Once it is, I will give it another try.

<comment><USER21> Couldn't find it on the AppDB but someone posted in the forums about it a year ago: [https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27180](https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27180)

<comment><USER20> Now I feel kind of bad for being too lazy to do that research myself.

Thank you very, very much!

<comment><USER21> No worries, happy to help get people acquainted with Wine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wonder if Wine is now capable of running more Windows software than any one version of Windows is?

<comment><USER23> For everything previous to XP (and maybe even including XP) it is, without any doubt.

It would be funny if someday Microsoft decides to include Wine with WSL, but I wouldn't be surprised to be honest.

<comment><USER24> Windows might become a Linux distribution someday, the way it's going...

<comment><USER11> Very unlikely. Linux distributions are based upon Linux, and the whole architecture of the Windows Linux Subsystem, after all, is _not having Linux there_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> > Wine can be built as an APK package and behaves like a proper Android > application.

Cool.

<comment><USER26> Wait so Wine can be installed as an Android application on a phone? That's amazing!

<comment><USER27> I know right??? Ive been using samsung dex as my primary computer for video editing and web design ive been craving a desktop version of some windows programs tho haha

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Great progress. For the reference, DX11 based games perform much better in Wine with Mesa / AMD, than with Nvidia blob.

<comment><USER28> Sorry, not too familiar with rendering API's. Do you have a reference that you could link me to that further explains the reason for this?

<comment><USER16> I suppose the reason is something in Nvidia blob. It's not very obvious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Out of interest, how do these people make money?

<comment><USER30> As someone said it is a voluntary project but some companies make money from it like Transgaming (now Nvidia) which works by porting games to Mac OS X. So games like FFXIV for Mac are not native but actually a professional wine based wrapper.

<comment><USER31> And CodeWeavers, who were the first to reliably support Microsoft Office in the early 2000s. [1] They used to contribute a lot back to Wine (they probably still do). I think that Transgaming actually forked Wine before it became GPL- licensed. IIRC they were also not really contributing much back (at least in the Cedega times).

[1] This was a screenshot of my machine in 2004, running Microsoft Office under Wine under NetBSD's Linux emulation:

[https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/daniel- cxoffice.jpg](https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/in-Action/daniel-cxoffice.jpg)

<comment><USER32> CodeWeavers state on their website it's 2/3 of the Wine commits made by their developers and I pretty sure it's true.

At least most of complex features such as D3D11 support implemented by them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Can't imagine living without wine. Right now I am coding while listening to music on MusicBee via wine on my linux box :-)

<comment><USER34> Check out an application called 'cmus'. Very nice minimal music player on Linux that runs from your terminal. It has support for lots of different formats.

<comment><USER33> Thank you! Will definitely check it out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> This is a really wonderful piece of software.

Most Delphi and Win32 API apps run without a hitch, and developing under wine with mingw seems to go faster than using MS Visual Studio on Windows.

<comment><USER36> Can you explain your workflow here? Do you cross compile to w32 on Linux and run the resulting exe on wine? In what ways is development faster?

<comment><USER35> On linux, just use the mingw c/c++ compiler and run/debug under wine. When it's time to run under windows, I compile under cygwin's mingw, and that usually just works.

I'll edit later today when I get a chance and post my makefiles / compiler opts to github.

<comment><USER35> Here is my quick-and-dirty cookbook:

[https://eggplant.pro/blog/writing-win32-applications-with- mi...](https://eggplant.pro/blog/writing-win32-applications-with-mingw-and- wine/)

If you need clarifications, just post a comment there.

As for faster, VS2017 takes _minutes_ to load on my machine (which is fairly beefy BTW). Even back when VS was fast, I could still work faster with the old userland progs like vim, grep, make, etc...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Does anyone know if this will support running SQL Server Management Studio? That's the only thing keeping me using Linux in a VM instead of as my main.

<comment><USER38> You could of course switch it up and use Windows in a VM and Linux as your main.

<comment><USER39> What license allows home users to use a virtualized MS Windows, do they allow it?

<comment><USER38> IANAL but the Microsoft License Terms for OEM Windows 10 [1] says yes:

2\. Installation and Use Rights.

b. Device. In this agreement, "device" means a hardware system (whether physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the software. A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a device.

d. Multi use scenarios.

(iv) Use in a virtualized environment. This license allows you to install only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each instance.

[1]: [https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Uset...](https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/Useterms_OEM_Windows_10_English.htm)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> This really tempts me to go back to Linux as my "daily driver".

My main issue is working from home, and connecting to my work's VPN. We use Pulse Secure, and it does a host scan that only works on Windows and Mac OS X.

Has anyone had any experience with getting Pulse Secure running under Wine and having it trick a corporate VPN host-checker that it is indeed a compliant version of Windows?

<comment><USER41> I believe openconnect handles Pulse, which is a Juniper SSL VPN? If so, use it and fake the check script.

Google openconnect infradead. I used AnyConnect at work (it does support both, despite name) but didn't have to use this feature.

<comment><USER42> I have successfully used OpenConnect to replace PulseSecure. Depending on the server configuration, you might need to change the user agent to Windows and have a fake-host-checker-script. The Linux version of Pulse Secure requires your administrator to configure linux as "supported" on the server-side which is often not the case, which makes it pretty much worthless.

One thing I noticed is that the network-manager-plugin will disconnect you when changing networks, while the command-line-version reconnects without a need to re-authenticate.

In another instance, I used a windows host with Win32-OpenSSH. I used a proxy.pac script for web browsing and for SSHing I tunnelled using the ProxyJump option. You could also configure your Windows VM to act as a router and set the routes in the Linux host to go to the VM.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Does it include patches from wine-staging (CSMT)?

<comment><USER16> It includes some csmt work, but it might not be the same as staging one. You need to enable it through registry key.

See [https://wiki.winehq.org/Useful_Registry_Keys](https://wiki.winehq.org/Useful_Registry_Keys)

HKEY_CURRENT_USER

        +-Software
           |
            +-Wine
                  |
                  +-Direct3D
                  |  |
                  |  +->csmt
                  |  |   [DWORD Value (REG_DWORD): Enable (0x1) or disable (0x0, default) the multi-threaded
                  |  |    command stream feature. This serialises rendering commands from different threads into
                  |  |    a single rendering thread, in order to avoid the excessive glFlush()'es that would otherwise
                  |  |    be required for correct rendering. This deprecates the "StrictDrawOrdering" setting.
                  |  |    Introduced in wine-2.6.]

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Wine is one of those amazing software. Kudos for a new release.

</comment><comment><USER45> I wonder if I could get Dark Reign running on this ...

<comment><USER46> Excellent game. It was ahead of it's time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Does anyone know if Office 2016 is supported?

<comment><USER48> Codeweaver's Crossover says Office 2016 "runs well":

[https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof...](https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft- office-2016)

(Codeweaver's contributes perhaps the majority of code to Wine 3.0, so Wine 3.0 will also run it well, but they have a terrific product because they allow you to essentially sandbox each Windows app into a different wine "bottle" container with different settings for each, and by providing default settings and switches for most major apps.)

<comment><USER49> Interesting. Just today, I decided I'd had enough of outlook 365 Web client. Maybe I'll give outlook 2016 and wine 3.0 a try - before I fall back to plain imap etc at work.

<comment><USER48> Don't know if Outlook works. That part was the one part of Office that always caused me issues in Wine (but, frankly, I haven't tried it in years). Word, Excel, PPT -- all worked great otherwise. (small tip: if I disabled compositing in my window manager, then the translucent selection drag box in PPT turned black, making it impossible to see what I was selecting.)

Also, there's a very simple extension for OWA in the chrome app store; it just tricks OWA into thinking you're running Chrome on Windows instead of Linux (where microsoft subjects you to the ancient version instead). I know the author pretty well ;) However, I haven't been forced into running OWA or connecting to Exchange at all, so it might have bitrotted or not be needed anymore:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/owa-user- agent/bbc...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/owa-user- agent/bbcokcplpnehgcfgjbpaecnmaedpjifo?hl=en)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I wonder how well Wine work on WSL on windows..

<comment><USER42> Wine also runs on Windows (Not sure how stable it is given that it is not the main focus)

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Does anybody know whether I can run the SAPGUI (win32, not crappily-maintained java version) yet?

<comment><USER51> Self-reply for anybody interested: basically the same sucky experience as before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Last time I tried wine was something like 15-20 years ago. I thought it was a great project but that they would never be able to get it right. Is it working well now?

In any case, congratulations to the developers for their work.

<comment><USER53> Decent considering the magnitude of the needed effort. I use it to occasionally play Age of Empires 2 on Steam running over Wine. It is playable, but has still some bugs. For example embedded browser doesn't work with Steam and there's this years old bug, for which there is a patch that is ignored by mainline, that makes your view scroll sideways.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> How well does it work with iTunes for Windows?

I switched from OSX to Linux over the past year and being unable to play music I bought from iTunes BEFORE they removed the DRM is my biggest pain point.

<comment><USER55> If you can borrow a computer with iTunes on it, you can replace the DRM files with MP3 versions. [https://www.wikihow.com/Convert-Protected-Audio-Into-a- Plain...](https://www.wikihow.com/Convert-Protected-Audio-Into-a-Plain-MP3)

Hope that helps.

<comment><USER54> Actually tried that and even then those songs re-download with the DRM on them. For some reason there is this window of time when songs were purchased where they won't allow the DRM to be removed. And Apple got the extra $25 from me.

My best option is probably to sit down and put this sleeve of old blank CDs to good use and burn all the songs so that I can re-rip them as MP3. It's just irritating.

Wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen to include the music that I code to (First Iron Man sound track. Consistent paced instrumentals that all seem to flow well together.)

<comment><USER56> Why would you even bother burning them when the iso will be just fine? Also I am pretty sure some ffmpeg can probably do the conversation

<comment><USER54> Fair point....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Can I finally play Heroes 3 on my mac? :) Will be tried tonight.

<comment><USER58> Heroes 3 has been working on Wine for years, when was the last time you tried?

<comment><USER59> I feel like the last time I tried it wanted me to install some things and there were some errors on Mac? I don't totally remember though, but it wasn't smooth sailing last year or so.

<comment><USER57> Yes, same. But I tried maybe 2 years ago.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Does anyone know if SonicStage works on Wine? It's an ancient piece of proprietary software from Sony to transfer songs to their NetMDs.

<comment><USER61> Hasn't been tested for a while, but when it was last tested, no, didn't work.

[https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...](https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=6911&iTestingId=20249)

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> I'm curious what the majority of use cases are these days for using Wine over virtualization, containers or something like AWS workspaces?

<comment><USER63> foobar2000 as there is no good audio player on linux, also gaming, old windows apps, photoshop, ...

<comment><USER16> _> there is no good audio player on linux_

Practically nothing beats mpv IMHO as a general purpose media player, with VLC being second best.

I can do this:

        mpv https://danielamosboots.bandcamp.com/track/triangle-square

<comment><USER54> SMPlayer is pretty solid

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I wonder how did Wine managed to convery HLSL into GLSL. Although Valve did make a proof of concept of this shader converter called togl.

</comment><comment><USER65> I can't wait to try it. I also assume the next version of Reactos will use this code to run more Windows apps?

</comment><comment><USER29> Anyway care to discuss Wine vs VirtualBox? I've been playing with Photshop in VirtualBox lately, and it's really slow.

<comment><USER66> They are not even remotely the same thing. WINE is a compatibility layer that translates the Win32 API calls into POSIX equivalent. VirtualBox is virtualization where the whole OS is being virtualized.

<comment><USER67> The OS isn't being virtualized in VirtualBox, the hardware is. VirtualBox pretends to be a second computer inside your computer, but that second computer still needs its own real copy of an operating system.

<comment><USER66> My bad, you are right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Was there really that much demand for Wine to be ported to Android?

</comment><comment><USER69> Hopefully this fixes the text in the GMAT Prep app.

</comment><comment><USER70> Go Wine! <3 Thanks to everyone involved with this project.

</comment><comment><USER71> Did they fix the default menus looking like their counterparts in Windows 95?

<comment><USER72> To be fair, Microsoft has yet to remove all the Windows 95 style design. The Windows 10 installer has at least 3 different eras of design visible at once.

<comment><USER73> [https://i.imgur.com/7CFGXdH.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7CFGXdH.jpg)

[https://i.imgur.com/xBwNucW.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/xBwNucW.jpg)

[https://i.imgur.com/I5nrep9.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/I5nrep9.jpg)</comment></comment></comment>


Why Java (and almost every other programming language) sucks - <AUTHOR> http://www.perkiset.org/forum/pythonlispschemeerlangobscurities/why_java_and_almost_every_other_programming_language_sucks_lisp-t26.0.html;msg57#msg57

<comment><USER2> I kinda switched off before the flame-bait portion even started.

The first few paragraphs of text appear to be confusing Lisp/Scheme with 'functional programming' as a paradigm, and making an argument about one using the other. There would be nothing easier about "modifying the way the compiler generates code" in OCaml than in C or anything else (assuming a well-written compiler in each case).

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there really a difference between a macro and a method or class definition that makes languages supporting both fundamentally more powerful than languages supporting only the latter?

This "extending the syntax of the language" looks just like defining a class or method to me; maybe because Lisp doesn't really have much syntax.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is a rehash of lisp's meta programming abilities. We get it, with lisp you build the language.

</comment><comment><USER5> Three blog posts I'd love to read (and one that I wouldn't):

[http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/10/three-blog-posts-id- love...](http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/10/three-blog-posts-id-love-to-read- and.html)

</comment><comment><USER6> .next() makes sense when you think that generators are also iterables and must support the corresponding interface.

having () and .next() would violate Python philosophy: only one way to do it.

</comment><comment><USER7> That's like steve yegge's <http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/lisp-wins> Except written by a teenager (in the bad meaning of that word).

</comment><comment> onreact-com Why submissions titled "why x sucks" suck? <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=838969></comment>


Beauty Shots of Retro Machines - <AUTHOR> http://podstawczynski.com/retro/beauty_shots.html <comment><USER2> Please, if anyone takes old hardware images, do put them on Wikipedia Commons, where there is a shortage. Recently I donated a bunch of old systems and peripherals to a museum in Australia. Before doing so, I photographed them and uploaded the images to Commons and was shocked to find how few existed! [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:List...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListFiles/Pratyeka&ilshowall=1) (scroll down a page or so)

</comment><comment><USER3> Extremely relevant book, [https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Retro-Evolution- Personal-Comp...](https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Retro-Evolution-Personal- Computer/dp/078214330X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1487624982&sr=8-2&keywords=Gordon+Laing&linkCode=sl1&tag=glnow-20&linkId=e1c4e9c4ac187adbc2671b5b693b876d)

(the refcode is from the authors site, [https://www.cameralabs.com/digitalretro/](https://www.cameralabs.com/digitalretro/) )

The interior of the book is much more beautiful than the cover, and sadly Amazon's look inside function is mostly the contents and index.

It's high quality photos of ~100 various computers from the Altair 8800 through iirc recent Apple stuff, from all angles, with text explaining that machine's importance & innovations. A great coffee table book. Even covers some Japanese-only stuff.

I also recall a really extensive and beautiful set of photo albums on flickr which I am currently trying to find the link for, it's in my logs somewhere. Will post that here when I find it tonight. Meanwhile, I found this while googling for it, and while it has some great stuff, it's not as uniformly amazing as the other stream I'm looking for: [https://www.flickr.com/groups/vintagecomputers/pool/](https://www.flickr.com/groups/vintagecomputers/pool/)

<comment><AUTHOR> I have that book. It's lovely.

I bought it for the photos and to support Gordon Liang, who writes some good camera reviews on CameraLabs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Could use more ashtrays for authenticity :)

</comment><comment><USER5> The //c and the MacBook side by side was an interesting 20-year comparison in design languages.

</comment><comment><USER6> Can someone send this man a proper Atari ST mouse?!?

I asked him about it, and apparently he doesn't have one.

</comment><comment><USER7> Makes me feel odd seeing the MacBook A1181, just having retired mine early this year. It kept on running with Snow Leopard, but the OS started losing compatibility with some popular build tools.

</comment><comment><USER8> Somewhat unrelated, but I'd love to be able to get something like a T-Series ThinkPad but with beige plastic. Something about it feels so nostalgic and comfortable.

</comment><comment><USER9> Needs more Oric-1/Atmos! ;)

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice, but not a single CoCo or TRS-80 Model I in the bunch.

Tsk!

<comment><USER11> I think the main reason for this is the photographer seems to be from Europe, where the Radio Shack/Tandy computers were not as common.

Also notice there wasn't any Dragon 64 machines, either (which I believe were mainly a UK thing).

<comment><USER12> Had a Dragon32 in France so not only UK. But... So many Amigas and no ST!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Nice photos. Most with authentic accessories. Including the the last photo out of a flat window of an eastern bloc soviet style concrete fab building (probably common in 1980s era Poland)

Little nit-picking: The Duke Nukem 3D running on an 300 MHz is a bit out of era, given it was almost 2 years old game when the hardware got release. Quake 2, Hexen 2, Unreal 1, Half Life 1 or Age of Empires 1 would be games of that era (end of 1997/early 1998). (mind that MHz race was in full speed back in late 1990s, a two year old PC was considered "stone age", a two year old game looked "like from stone age")</comment>