A room so quiet, no one can spend more than 45 minutes in it - <AUTHOR> http://www.timesherald.com/article/20120515/NEWS04/120519723/a-room-so-quiet-no-one-can-stand-it-for-more-than-45-minutes&pager=full_story

<comment><USER2> BTW, Ron Sauro at NWAA Labs (<http://nwaalabs.com/> or <http://nwaalabs.ipower.com/pictures1.html>) was hoping to build a quieter chamber but his funding dried up. He built his acoustical testing facility at a nuclear plant that was constructed but never commissioned.

The original plan was to build a 50ft by 60ft by 55ft chamber, with about half of it being underground. Given the exterior noise level of around 20 dBA (the plant is located in the wilderness), the thick concrete walls of the facility, and some additional noise and structural isolation he might very well beat Orfield's record with a much larger chamber (meaning it will be anechoic down to a lower frequency). If he can get the funding.

If you're ever in the area, Ron is a friendly guy and he'll be happy to give you a tour (he's on LinkedIn).

<comment><USER3> Agreed, I feel fortunate to have NWAA so close. Good to see you on HN, Anechoic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've worked in one of these for a happy summer making measurements of acoustic diffuser panels. I quite enjoyed it. However, it looks that that room actually has a regular floor; mine didn't. You lowered your own suspended floor (metal grill tiles) onto scaffold poles to get into the room, then tore it all up as you left. Falling off the "floor" was a Really Bad Idea; those foam pyramids have got a steel spike up the middle for rigidity, and you'd be in deep trouble if you fell onto them from 6 feet up (especially as no-one was going to hear you scream).

There was a safety microphone wired to the door switch for this reason (which also meant it wasn't QUITE such a good idea to say rude things about people in there :-)

<comment><USER2> _However, it looks that that room actually has a regular floor_

Look carefully at the picture, he's not standing on a solid floor, he's standing on a wire frame over more absorbers. Their website has a better pic: <http://www.orfieldlabs.com/Researchtour4.html>

IOW, their chamber is (fully) anechoic, not just hemi-anechoic.

<comment><USER4> Yes, you're quite right; I thought that was a particularly ugly patterned carpet he was standing on. I think that says more about British carpets than anything else :)

Looks like their wire floor is a bit more permanent than the design I was using; my microphone was on a rotating boom that could be swept 360 degrees from outside, and my sample mounting was a pole down to the real floor, so we could have the absolute minimum of interference from the mountings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Well apparently one can hear one's own circulatory and nervous system: [http://theresonator.blogspot.com/2007/04/john-cage-visits- an...](http://theresonator.blogspot.com/2007/04/john-cage-visits-anechoic- chamber.html)

> Cage entered the chamber expecting to hear silence, but as he wrote later, > he "heard two sounds, one high and one low. When I described them to the > engineer in charge, he informed me that the high one was my nervous system > in operation, the low one my blood in circulation."

<comment><USER6> I can attest to this. We have an anechoic chamber here at Michigan State and I've also been in the testing chamber at EV (Electro-Voice). Hearing the blood in your head and ears is quite odd, but the disorientation from not being able to place yourself in space is even stranger.

<comment><USER7> After reading this article, I immediately started to see if I could find one nearby and found out about the one at Michigan State. Would it be possible for me to go there and sit inside for a bit to experience this, even though I'm not a MSU student?

<comment><USER8> Likewise, I'd like to try this... it seems cool as hell!

<comment><USER6> Hey all -- I can see if I can arrange something. The chamber is in the basement of the Communication Arts and Sciences building and I teach in the College--but I don't know who currently runs it. Let me send some emails and see what I can do.

<comment><USER9> If you are able to make this happen, it would be very interesting if you could get the visitors to write a short note before entering about what they expect, how well they think they'll handle the disorientation, etc. After they're done have them write a similar note about their experience and how reality matched up with their expectations.

For all of us that don't have access to such facilities, this kind of before/after diary might be very interesting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm sure many people could, starting with the Deaf. I'd certainly enjoy a break from the incessant yammering of humanity.

<comment><USER2> _I'd certainly enjoy a break from the incessant yammering of humanity._

It's not just a break from humanity, it's a break from _everything_ (including nature, which typically fills the void when humanity is absent).

If you haven't been in a very quiet space, it becomes disorienting very quickly. The quietest space I've been in has been <12 dBA (my measurement equipment only went that low so I couldn't get the true Lmin). At that level, I could hear the blood rushing through my ear. I have a minor case of tinnitus which is typically inaudible, but in that space it was like an alarm clock screaming into one ear. The other ear seemed to desperately find something to "lock" onto, so it was amplifying every little thing it could.

After about 15 minutes I wound up opening a window to let a little wind noise into the room. That raised noise levels up to about 19 dBA and was much more comfortable.

<comment><USER11> >>>I have a minor case of tinnitus which is typically inaudible, but in that space it was like an alarm clock screaming into one ear.

Ah, I was wondering about that. (Now scrolls up to delete question asked elsewhere.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There was a small room like this at my university. It was fitted with a "panic" button, because if anything happened you in there, no one could hear you shouting.

</comment><comment><USER13> I was hoping for more science-y details. Any HN folks care to give a better explanation of what's going on here?

<comment><USER14> The room is anechoic and insulated. Anechoic means that the walls are treated to absorb all the sound waves that hit them, and not reflect them back. (Typically, anechoic surfaces are soft and cannot support much weight, so [guess] there is probably a support system to put weight bearing platforms inside.) Insulated means that sounds from outside the room are not transmitted in. A lot of concrete can take care of the high frequencies, but low frequencies often require special suspensions to keep sounds from the earth out.

The most interesting thing is the measured extent of what they've produced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I read that title and immediately thought. Challenge Accepted.

<comment><USER16> I want one to meditate in each morning.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Being completely deaf in one ear, I'm sure I could last 90 minutest at least. A cool article, but a bit sensationalist.

<comment><USER18> I like that your process for calculating how long you could last appears to consist of multiplying the amount of time others can last by their ratio of working ears to yours. Science!

<comment><USER19> As I read his comment I was going to write basically what you did, but I thought "No. No, that is too nerdy." So thank you =D

Relevant: I do wonder though if the disorientation would be less for someone with complete deafness in one ear. I would think that they are already somewhat used to the balance/orientation issues.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> X-Istence He mentioned that people generally can't be in there longer than 45 minutes. I would love to test that theory. Give me a desk, a laptop, and let me get to work.

The most interesting thing would be whether or not my tinnitus is going to drive me insane or not :P

<comment><USER20> In a room this quiet I assume using keyboard will sound very loud.

<comment><USER21> Quite the opposite - hence, 'quiet room'.

<comment><USER20> How do you hear your heartbeat if you can cannot hear your keyboard keys when pressed?

<comment> X-Istence Because the veins are very near your ear canal. Any outside sound is not available, so the only sound you hear is those that are internal and wouldn't get very far anywhere else...

<comment><USER21> And I imagine even them are not louder, just that you're a lot more focused on them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Here is a video of the effects in an anechoic chamber : [http://channel9.msdn.com/Series/CampusTours/Microsoft- Campus...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Series/CampusTours/Microsoft-Campus-Tours- Microsoft-Research-Part-1-The-Anechoic-Chamber)

</comment><comment><USER23> We used to have one at HP. I hated going in there, supremely disorienting and creepy, especially with the weird panels on the walls.

</comment><comment><USER24> I wonder how this would equate to being in space (preferably in a space suit) ?

</comment><comment><USER25> I wonder what it sounds like in units of noise cancelling headphones.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've been in the Orfield labs anechoic chamber. I didn't feel too disturbed, but then I never got the chance to be in there alone -- some friends and I went together.

Steve's a great guy. He'll give you a little tour of everything going on at Orfield labs, but the price of admission is a $20 check to a local food-bank.

He told my friends and I a lot of interesting things. Like how corporate offices use subtle noise from the air-ducts to drown out coworkers' conversations; or how casinos use echoing plates to project the sound of a jackpot across the entire gaming floor.

I definitely recommend paying it a visit if you ever find yourself in Minneapolis.

</comment><comment><USER27> I would love to hear what my drum set sounds like in there. Has anyone ever practiced a musical instrument in a chamber like this? I wonder what the advantages and disadvantages would be.

<comment><USER28> Drums sound really strange without reverb. If you've ever drummed outside, the difference is really stark - I play outside with my samba band a lot, and all the drums sound really cold and quiet, so you end up playing a lot harder automatically just to get the sound of your drum to be as loud as you're used to. I imagine the anechoic chamber might be similar, with the added effect of not hearing any drum sound which would normally bounce off the floor - do, for example, you'd probably hear very little snare wire sound.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> The reverb room actually sounds cooler:

> ...a reverberation chamber with bowed aluminum panels in which he sounds the > same from 300 feet away as 3 feet away.

<comment><USER2> Reverb rooms are much easier to build (and more common) than very-quiet anechoic chambers.

<comment><USER29> Okay, but are perfectly diffuse rooms really more common than perfectly absorbent rooms?

Anyway, I didn't know that before today :)

<comment><USER2> _Perfectly_ diffuse rooms are a common staple of acoustics labs in university and calibration facilities, it's a requirement for STC (sound transmission class) testing for building materials and wall/window assemblies.

Any acoustically well-designed movie theater (THX or HPS-4000 certified among others), performance space, concert hall or auditorium will be decently diffuse, at least at higher frequencies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I enjoyed a similar experience sitting in the middle of a mile-on-a-side clearcut area on a windless, zero-degree Sunday in January in the far north. No planes, no traffic, no animal noises. I sat on a frozen log and listened to the blood in my ears for a half hour.

Give me a good book and I'll spend 45 hours in one.

</comment><comment><USER31> Brilliant idea.. though probably bait'sy title... I would love to spend as much time as i can over there... If it's becoming annoying i can always sit down and start practicing vipassana(<http://www.dhamma.org/>) that would be fun to listen to only my body. :-P

</comment><comment><USER32> The closest I think I've come to anything like this is a "soundproof" booth used for hearing tests. I remember that being eerily quiet (to listen for very quiet tones in headphones). Anyone know how this chamber compares to a hearing test booth? Sounds like it's probably quite a bit quieter...

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm curious. If you speak in an anechoic chamber like this, what does it sound (or not) like?

</comment><comment><USER34> There was an episode of 'Get Smart' where in order to keep the room quiet the words people spoke turned into word clouds. Eventually the room was so full they had to eat their words. This article reminded me of that.

</comment><comment><USER35> I have tinnitus and I often wonder how I would feel in such an environment and what the whistling in my ears would sound like.

</comment><comment><USER36> yes, noise is pollution. I would tax cars based on air and noise pollution and nothing else.

<comment><USER37> Why nothing else? How about congestion?

<comment><USER38> That's spatial pollution.

<comment><USER16> And [ugly car du jour] is aesthetic pollution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I don't get why people can't spend more than 45 minutes in there.

I understand that you begin to hear your heartbeat and so on, but surely anyone who is even slightly deaf (e.g. even from just prolonged listening to loud music) wouldn't hear these very low-decibel sounds?

So it can't be the lack of sound, as a slightly hard of hearing person hears the noise floor drop out quite frequently. (Correct me if I'm wrong here; it's just my assumption). Is it that these sounds become so annoying, such a nuisance?

If someone had a noise-free keyboard (maybe touch) and were coding in there, would anything be a distraction? Would anything limit your stay?

I find sitting into a dead-silent room with a laptop (e.g. somewhere where you can't even hear a clock tick, nor any street sounds, nothing) to be completely maddening initially...but then after about 2-3 minutes you can immerse yourself and do something with extreme concentration.

<comment><USER40> I cannot speak to partial deafness, but I used to work in an anechoic chamber. It is indeed soul-suckingly disturbing after short periods of time. Even a totally "silent" environment has tremendous amounts of reverb and low-level reflected noise: you just filter it out automatically. In an anechoic chamber, this noise is gone, and your filter goes haywire. It starts filtering things that aren't there. You start hearing your own blood vessels in your eardrum, yes, but you also perceive a kind of disturbing anti-noise. It's very hard to describe.

Top it off with the fact that usually such rooms are entirely sealed off and that you're standing or sitting on a big mesh trampoline floating in the center of the room, and it all comes to one seriously creepy experience after about ten minutes.

<comment><USER41> How does it compare to using earplugs in a silent room?

<comment><USER42> I must assume it's quite different

Even though some of the sound travels through the facial bone structure (like when you hear your own voice) I guess most sounds come from outside

Also, earplugs add pressure to the ear canal so I guess this muffles somethings</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: I've used Go to build a daemon for the Raspberry Pi - <AUTHOR> http://jondot.github.io/groundcontrol/

<comment><USER2> Cool! Go is getting some attention. Project looks very neat.

I just released an alpha project for the Raspberry pi using Go for controlling your sprinklers.

Shameless plug: <https://github.com/pothibo/irrigation>

<comment><USER3> Sweet!

But make it go-gettable, dammit. :-) [1]

Also, is there anything I could read that would explain how I'd hook up my RPi to my sprinkler system? Thanks!

[1] - <https://github.com/pothibo/irrigation/issues/1>

<comment><USER2> Didn't see your question. opensprinkler.com seems like a verygood solution. I found it after starting working on my project so I bought a sainsmart 5v relay controller. Doing it again, I would probably buy opensprinkler for Pi

<comment><USER3> Excellent. Thanks very much for the thread. I'll pull on it soon, hopefully.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Already tried using it, setup was a breeze, and already reporting to my Librato metrics.

Nice job

</comment><comment><USER5> This is a great little program, but I'm curious why you're marketing it only for the Raspberry Pi? A low-memory system monitoring script could be useful in many other areas, and as far as I can tell, there's nothing RPi specific in the source.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

Well, I'm not saying it is only for the Pi (took care of adding it into the FAQ recently), just that it's been run and tested on one for more than two weeks now - so I feel comfortable with saying it works great on the Pi.

But yes - I have been building and testing it on OSX and Linux alternatively, before deploying on the Pi for testing, so it is perfectly suitable for any unix device with low resources indeed.

Hope it works well for you anywhere you want to run it :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Nice but I wish people wouldn't use names like "w", "tuple" or "string" for variables. Tuple of what? The analysis that is needed for the reader to figure that out, however short, is friction you are adding to the code readability. The shame of it is this kind of friction is totally unnecessary. Looking forward to giving this a whirl though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup. Ironically, I'm a big advocate of good naming in production code.

Unfortunately what the git logs don't show is that some of that code was written very late at night (where my spare time lives), and sometimes I neglected to do that out of sheer tiredness.

I will definitely try to improve on that when needed, thanks!

<comment><USER6> Wow, thanks for the positive reaction to my comments. A breath of fresh air.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Very cool! Looking forward to trying it out. My current solution had been a dead-simple crontab script that pushed some stats to a static html page every hour. It's ugly and a little dumb so I'd been looking for a better solution, and this looks perfect.

<comment><USER8> Hey, I have a project similar to groundcontrol but un Python, is called RaspCTL[1][2]. You add/execute commands thru a web interface, radio support (using mpd), can manage the daemons, dashboard with the memory usage/processes, processor temperature, etc...

And just right now I'm working on an alarm system, where you'll be able to launch any arbitrary commands or start/stop playing a radio. In a few days I'll release the new version.

BTW, for the ones who have a dynamic IP and want to use a Dynamic DNS service for being able to access to your RPi from the internet, you can check this out[3].

[1] Official site: <http://raspctl.com/> [2] Repository: <http://code.krenel.org/raspctl> [3] <http://ip.raspctl.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wonder what the binary size, resource utilization, and performance difference would be if this was written in C. How would Go match up against C for embedded platform dev? I mean small/real embedded systems... not Android/iPhone platforms.

<comment><USER10> Go's standard library includes things needed for the Real World(tm) like HTTP server/client and serialization for example on a project like this one.

In C those functions would be provided by third party libraries like libCURL (or handwritten and likely insecure).

This is slightly irrelevant in terms of your question about performance, but in terms of dev it is very nice to avoid dealing with 3rd party packages, especially when programming for multiple architectures.

<comment><USER9> Yes, of course C doesn't have all the bloat that comes with Go. But still, my question was about performance (as you noted). :)

LibCURL is used (along with a TON of other 3rd party C libs) in a bunch of systems securely. Writing C code isn't __always__ insecure. It all depends on the developer/team. Just like writing Java isn't always portable.

It seems like it's all about saving dev time these days. I was once pulled onto a project where some devs had used perl & python for an embedded system. They got a prototype system up pretty quickly, but performance just wasn't there and they were using WAY too much RAM/CPU based on what the system had to offer. They wasted many man-months trying to optimize their code. Eventually, they brought in some C devs and we rewrote in C and the system ran great. It turned out great for the Python/Perl devs too because they got to learn C and some of the benefits of using it.

Don't get me wrong. C doesn't fit all problems.

<comment><USER11> So they proved out the first version in a high level dynamic language and then someone reimplemented in C for performa performance reasons? Sounds like a solid process.

<comment><USER12> I actually deployed a production embedded system running a large chunk of code written in perl once (on a 180MHz FreeBSD/arm board). The performance was just enough, although the critical components were implemented in C.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Just to save some time for FreeBSDers, this does not run on Raspberry Pi's with FreeBSD out of the box: ELF binary type "0" not known (and branding it does not help - it needs the linux compat lib - anyone have that on a raspberry?).

</comment><comment><USER14> Very cool! There are a wide range of applications for embedding devices like the RPi going places where they are installed and forgotten, often in very inaccessible places. Projects like this are a key part of making that happen.

I've been working on an open source project like this for JavaScript called Nitrogen. You can read about it here if you are interested in a node.js/JavaScript take on this: <http://bit.ly/18k67ow>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! the major selling point of Go over Node.js on the Pi for me was resource usage. I definitely share your excitement for the internet of things, hope I can dig deeper into Nitrogen over the weekend :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Isn't the rpi an armv6 device? Why the GOARM=5 build flag?

</comment><comment><USER16> I'll build 'Major Tom', a mobile app making use of this

<comment><AUTHOR> Sounds like a great idea :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> This looks awesome!

How easy would it be to add support for statsd[1] / graphite[2]?

[1] <https://github.com/etsy/statsd/> [2] <http://graphite.wikidot.com/>

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm all in for using Go and having fun, but is there an actual point in this daemon? I thought the Raspberry Pi is about making life easier and not about adding one more device to constantly worry about (i.e. check the stats every so often or get alerts)? :-)

<comment><USER19> This is probably made for fun, and in the spirit of the times where there's an app for everything. Whether or not it's useful is another point though..

<comment><AUTHOR> Author here.

It was made out of several reasons

* For fun (as said here)

* Scratching my own itch - I needed a way to remotely run commands though a nice UI, and a way to see how my Pi is doing when i'm not at home.

* For lack of better tooling - every thing I evaluated needed a combination of things, no other tool gave me all-in-one. This made the resources bloated. With GC, you get around 3-4MB RSS.

* To prove to myself that Go can be as great for development on the Pi as Python (which many people use there)

I also like the idea of Internet of Things <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_Things>

I already had everything working in an evening based on a concept I had, and it took additional few days of my spare time to get a nice looking UI, landing page, code cleaned up, supporting more reporters etc.

So all in all I invested that additional time on the premise that others may find it useful to make their own life a bit easier -- naively speaking, if it make your life harder please let me know why so I can improve it :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> How is this specific to Raspberry Pi in any way?

<comment><USER9> From my brief browsing of the code, it doesn't see to be tied to Raspberry Pi. Or if it is, it's probably very portable to other Linux systems.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not specific, it _can_ work on unix like OSes. Using it both on my Pi and on my Mac and Linux for testing :)

However being that it has very slim resources and an easy way to cross compile, it is perfect for the Pi.</comment></comment></comment>


Researchers Steal 250GB of User Data From Facebook - ca-rl http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/01/researchers-flood-facebook-with-bots-collect-250gb-of-user-data/

<comment><AUTHOR> scary</comment>


What is Bitmessage? (and how this anti-PRISM messaging system works) [videos] - <AUTHOR> http://addictronics.com/bitmessage.php

<comment><AUTHOR> If you try bitmessage and want to chat with someone, send me a message and I'll reply with a riddle:

BM-2D98T1k1yAARYtV2B8p3cFCvrUGWWjUofC</comment>


LibreOffice - A fresh page for OpenOffice - <AUTHOR> http://www.h-online.com/open/features/LibreOffice-A-fresh-page-for-OpenOffice-1097358.html <comment><USER2> FreeOffice wasn't an option?

Open Source Office?

Anything-other-than-LibreOffice?

OpenOffice is something that I can explain to my mother when I install it for her instead of MS Office, Mom, it's just like Office but it is open source. In fact she didn't notice for a long time.

Libre Office? She'll question that for sure, and then what am I going to do, explain the GNU manifesto to her? Come on.

I like the use of the word Libre instead of Free among people who know what we're talking about, but from a marketing/branding standpoint, this is horrible.

<comment><USER3> "Libre" is probably better understood in Europe to mean "free" in its intended "free as in speech" sense.

<comment><USER2> That is probably true in Europe, but it definitely fails in the US. What I don't see is why the name has to be so damn literal.

Firefox was never named "Libre Interent Browser"

Google was never "Better Search Engine That Doesn't Totally Suck"

OpenOffice at least wasn't that clunky and got the point across.

This is a name by hackers for hackers. Why is that a good idea for a project with the mainstream reach of Firefox? This is a cross platform office suite, it could be used by literally EVERY PERSON WHO USES A COMPUTER, the name is extremely important. It doesn't have to mention a damn thing about open source, free software, or anything in its name. Most people don't care about Firefox's development model - they just like using it. OpenOffice should be the same way.

<comment><USER4> Yes, and who wants to use a game console that sounds like a man's genitals or a tablet computer that sounds like a menstruation guard. Names do not matter when you already have a product people want and need.

<comment><USER2> I assume you mean the (Sony) PlayStation and the (Apple) iPad.

What sticks out to you there? If you don't see the vast difference between the Sony or Apple brand and the Libre Office brand then you don't understand marketing.

At this point Steve Jobs could make a toilet called the iShit and people would not care about the name, because they know and love the Apple brand. The product names matter extremely little for them, because people hear Apple (some bad product name), not (some unknown company) iPad. People are excited for the former and ridicule the later.

Sony holds an equally good name with many.

Both also have massive TV advertising budgets.

There is no comparison to this situation.

Explain why FOSS is often times better than the commercial counter point and is by definition cheaper, but still isn't gaining traction, what is the problem?

I contend the problem is _marketing_. FOSS developers love to redicule/ignore marketing, advertising, and business people in general, but it is an important part of gaining mindshare. Sure their degree is easier to get, but that doesn't mean their job is easy to do right. Much like the bike shed, everyone has an opinion on marketing and advertising, that doesn't mean they have a _good_ opinion on it. Saying that Apple and Sony are in anyway relevent to the naming of a relatively unknown product by a new group of people is like a marketing guy saying Cobol on Cogs is just like Ruby on Rails. We'd laugh at the marketing guy, but realize the marketing guys are laughing right back at the devs who suck at selling FOSS. We _literally can't give away for free what they are charging money for_.

You know where fixing that problem starts? By respecting marketing and advertising. It is far more than "just a name". There is no such thing as "just a name" when _your only method of spreading the word is by word of mouth_

<comment><USER5> Actually, I think he was referring to the Wii ...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Argh, couldn't they have come up with a less clunky name??

<comment><USER7> The new name sucks, but so did "OpenOffice.org" (at least going by the Ubuntu package names, they insisted on the .org being part of the name).

<comment><USER8> At least OpenOffice was something you could pronounce.

<comment><USER9> The trick is to insert a glottal stop between Libre and Office.

<comment><USER10> Seems quite simple to me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Google is sponsoring a free competitor to one of their proprietary solutions. I wonder why.

<comment><USER12> It's not direct competition ... I'm using Google's docs to keep my documents online / and for collaborative editing.

I haven't tried any plugins yet for OpenOffice, but it would be awesome if there was a plugin for syncing back and forth to Google Docs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This article doesn't really explain why go-oo.org was not sufficient. Nonetheless, I wish them all the best (but will continue to use LaTeX.)

<comment><USER14> As far as I understand, behind the "LibreOffice" will be the non-profit "Document Foundation" and that's already a lot -- the better legal position and he companies can better relate to it or commit to support it -- companies simply need other company-like entities.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Names are really important. This is a bad name.

Gimp, the image editor, is another victim of OSS naming. I know many serious artists who won't give it a try simply because of the name. They don't take it seriously. The fact that it's free is unimportant to them. With a better name a decade ago, Gimp could be a serious competitor to Photoshop now, instead of a footnote.

In this case, the developers are putting a clumsy emphasis on the price and "freedom", which is unimportant to someone who just wants to write a letter or make a presentation.

Read "LibreOffice" literally .. "A free alternative to MS Office". Which is not untrue but this immediately raises the question "Can you afford the REAL MS Office? And are you worth it?" Most people will answer, "Yes, I can and I am certainly worth it". Starving students may answer "No, but it's less work to pirate it than to install this weird thing."

My belief is that for an OSS office suite to dethrone MS Office, it needs a clear focus, and one other than "free".

Brainstorming some directions they could have taken:

LessOffice - A streamlined office suite, fast and bloat-free, that never crashes. (Of course, OpenOffice is pretty far from this in reality)

CopyDesk - A word processor for writers, not for bureaucrats.

DeFacto - An office suite that interoperates seamlessly with every other system. It never asks what format something is in, it just works.

BloatOffice - Has every feature from every other office suite. Combined. The most complete office suite on the planet. (A bit self-deprecating, but could turn a perceived weakness, bloat, into a feature, completeness).

Folio - An office suite without the learning curve.

In any case, this market is long overdue to be disrupted. Google Docs isn't going to do it. I'm a writer, and I can't even get it to do proper manuscript format. A typewriter can do that.

Developers: If you REALLY want to help the free software movement break MS's stranglehold on Office, don't write another office suite. Write a self- contained, standalone library that reads and writes .doc files, that works perfectly for the features it supports and clearly indicates to the caller when it's going to break and what it's breaking on. Once you can write a 200 line example program that converts most docs to nearly identical .pdfs, you've won. Not that that's easy.

<comment><USER16> I'm not a big fan of some of those names:

LessOffice - people with think it does less. CopyDesk - is is a photocopier?

BloatOffice - calling something bloated is an insult. If you want to emphasize completeness, how about PowerOffice, and use the slogan "PowerOffice -- it does it all".

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I don't get why people are against the name. Yeah, it's not "mom-friendly", but neither is any software. Everyone uses Word at home because it's what they use at work. They don't think of software packages as being discrete elements, they think of "a computer" and "that place where I type memos". Microsoft wins by default.

OO.org and LibreOffice should target two demographics: industries where everyone needs to be trained anyway, and for enthusiasts. If you work for megacorp-with-Word and you got Word for free with your computer, and you don't enjoy using computers, then LibreOffice's advantages are minimal. No need to cater to that demographic, because they simply don't care.

(Incidentally, I wrote a book in OO.org a few years ago. HORRIBLE. NEVER AGAIN. But I wouldn't use Word, either.)

</comment><comment><USER18> In general I'm in favor of moving things out of Oracle's control, since they have acted as an untrustworthy partner in many places, but why not use the existing fork?

The article dismisses Go-oo as not having enough support.. Why not give them more, rather than splitting the community further?

<comment><USER19> I believe one of the first actions of the new organisation was to apply all the changes from Go-oo, so it's not like they're completely splitting...

<comment><USER20> Michael Meeks and other Go-oo developers are on the board, as well.

<comment><USER21> So why do they need another name and another project?

<comment><AUTHOR> go-oo.org wasn't a fork. It is an alternative build of the upstream code that includes missing plug-ins that were excluded from the oo.o build because the developers hadn't assigned the copyright to Sun. The go-oo build has been the default for most Linux distributions since whenever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I can understand the concerns with the dual licensing and copyright assignment, it's the same problem I had with Diaspora's licensing.

</comment><comment><USER23> Is LibreOffice the first sign of Oraclepocalypse?

<comment><USER23> To whomever downvoted this, you realize of course that Oracle's overly- litigiousness:

<http://www.google.com/search?q=oracle+lawsuit>

and poor conferences for Java:

[http://www.google.com/search?q=javaone+oracle+sucked#sclient...](http://www.google.com/search?q=javaone+oracle+sucked#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=active&tbs=blg%3A1&q=oracle+javaone+sucked&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=3552031fb57c042d)

are what I'm referring to, right?

Oracle has seriously been screwing up lately. I think that the kids are taking their ball and going home with LibreOffice, leaving Oracle behind because of its anti-open-source attitude.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> When I saw the headline, I has hoping for something more like the Firefox/Mozilla or Drizzle/MySQL forks (only pull over the good parts, leave most of the bloat behind). That would have been something to get excited about.

</comment><comment><USER25> Fingers crossed on a possible vim-style input plugin/integration</comment>


Baltic Way - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way <comment><USER2> What's more, is that individuals from Hong Kong are planning to recreate the Baltic Way this Friday night with the Hong Kong Way, totaling 32km [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/19/protesters-call-pro- de...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/19/protesters-call-pro-democracy- human-chain-across-hong-kong-30th-anniversary-baltic- way/?fbclid=IwAR05CvjzBzPP8iBxs6_XTwzjF8D2sCCupSkH5ioCxuHb4YIN26WmkjkPXfU)

</comment><comment><USER3> The biggest event of the "Singing Revolution". 7 months later Lithuania declared independence effectively becoming the first domino to fall. Other nations followed within weeks resulting in collapse of the Soviet Union.

</comment><comment><USER4> I toured the "Corner House", the Cheka headquarters in Riga a couple weeks ago. After seeing the prison and execution room, it was really moving to hear about the Baltic Way. It was a powerful symbol to the powers of oppression, and incredibly brave.

</comment><comment><USER5> Another one, more recent: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Way](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Way)</comment>


Barrett Brown uses unusual technique to publicize Romas/COIN - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/#!/BarrettBrownLOL/status/84387781459185665

<comment><USER2> HINT: It's _not_ about teen sexting.

<comment><AUTHOR> He's done a few more too: <https://twitter.com/#!/BarrettBrownLOL>

Guise! TEENS ARE SEXTING! COULD YOUR TEEN BE INVOLVED IN THE SEXTING CRAZE? <http://hbgary.anonleaks.ch/aaron_hbgary_com/8403.html>

HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH TEEN SEXTING? WE'LL ASK OUR SEXTING EXPERTS: <http://pastebin.com/pRhruKLG>

OH MY GOD LOOK AT THE TEENS THEY'RE SEXTING AS WE SPEAK [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/22/hacking- anonymous)</comment></comment>


How would you cut the UK's deficit? - <AUTHOR> http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2014/deficit-calculator/

<comment><USER2> Here's a thought. Why not get the multi-non-nationals to pay more than 3% company tax?</comment>


Show HN: TinyCast – crowdsource with your team the likelihood of meeting metrics - <AUTHOR> https://tinycast.cultivatelabs.com <comment><AUTHOR> I'm the co-founder of Cultivate Labs ([https://cultivatelabs.com](https://cultivatelabs.com)), which is based on a lot of the work I did at Inkling Markets (YC06). We've been working on prediction markets and other crowdsourced prediction mechanisms for awhile now, but have always just sold a platform to large companies to run internally.

TinyCast is a "lite" / free version of the stuff we run with big co's and government agencies where we've tried to make it a lot easier to get predictions from your team or even your customers to ascertain not what people WANT to happen or what they think you want to be told, but what they think will ACTUALLY happen.

We also track/measure everyone's predictions (using Brier scores) so you can see who was the most accurate and give people feedback about where they're strong/weak, how they might be biased about certain topics, etc.

We've been using TinyCast ourselves on our team to predict some of our internal metrics which I blogged about here: [https://www.cultivatelabs.com/posts/have-your-team- predict-y...](https://www.cultivatelabs.com/posts/have-your-team-predict-your- kpi-s-so-you-can-actually-meet-your-kpi-s)

Industry trends, competitive intelligence, KPI's are all fair game and great uses of TinyCast. Would love to get any feedback anyone has, especially areas where you might have gotten tripped up or any questions about how this could be used in your company.

</comment><comment><USER2> My question to every prediction market startup:

"What statistical edge in predicting future events is there simply by asking for consensus?" or

"Is prediction market good enough to predict stock ticker prices?" The answer should be an obvious no.

If prediction market did outperform simple random guesses, hedge funds would be all over it. Hedge funds are great at claiming to hold the golden chalice but prediction market isn't even on their radar.

Tinycast seems to suggest that your employees know the best but what evidence is there to suggest their consensus is an accurate indicator of future events?

The only difference with Tinycast seems to be that it's not running on Ethereum. Inside joke there, prediction markets on Ethereum seems dime a dozen with no real adopters but stories of scam and fraud.

Best Buy is the only one I know of that were using prediction markets internally...in 2008. I'm not hearing any fanfares about it now. They couldn't predict the fall and merger of Futureshop.

<comment><USER3> Another Cultivate Labs person here. You're absolutely right re: predicting stock prices. A prediction market isn't going to beat the market consistently. People looking for that use case end up disappointed.

Prediction markets are more valuable to companies for things where there isn't already a large, liquid source of information flow. E.g. all the on-the-ground workers know a project is going to be late, but no one speaks up due to fear/office politics. Management thinks all is well since no one said otherwise.

A PM is an effective way of taking a bunch of siloed information/knowledge (in employee's brains), aggregating it, and presenting it to decision makers.</comment></comment>


The Case for Delayed Adulthood - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/opinion/sunday/the-case-for-delayed-adulthood.html <comment><USER3> _Prolonged adolescence, in the right circumstances, is actually a good thing, for it fosters novelty-seeking and the acquisition of new skills._

My first thought was "how sad that the march to adulthood is associated with the loss of imagination and experimentation."

But then I think of the sciences in general, and that I chose software engineering specifically because of the constant learning, changing, curiosity and intrigue it comes with.

The take-away to me is that we don't push nearly hard enough the importance of continued curiosity and the pursuit of new skills and knowledge. Apparently, it really does help you stay young.

<comment><USER4> Constant learning does not necessarily mean that your mind doesn't become more set in other respects. For example, problems in software engineering are of a particular type - however, known strategies now may turn out to not be as optimal, and there are potential cues one can take from other domains of knowledge. We are less likely to explore those domains as we get older.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The obvious argument is that people can "novelty-seek" and "acquire new skills" without living in precarious economic situations, being bound to their parents while still taking on massive amounts of debt.

In fact, they can probably do it a lot better.

<comment><USER6> This

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> There are a lot of ways we can define adolescence, but I think most people would agree that it is a stage that precedes full maturity.

Likewise, there are lots of ways we can describe maturity -- physical, cognitive, emotional, behavioral -- but I think a hallmark of adolescence is that decision-making is (generally, at least) more impulsive, more hedonistic, and more selfish.

And that, at least, is what I have seen among friends and acquaintances who have taken a long time to leave their adolescence behind them.

It's not just their living situation or their financial situation that can be called adolescent -- it's their general maturity and decision-making.

Perhaps, as Prof. Steinberg argues, the negative of immaturity is balanced out by the positive of brain plasticity ... but I wouldn't be surprised if immaturity + plasticity could be even more problematic than immaturity alone.

<comment><USER8> What's wrong with being impulsive, hedonistic, and selfish?

<comment><USER9> That it doesn't bring long-term sustainable happiness?

<comment><USER6> It certainly doesn't PRECLUDE long term sustainable happiness. Unless you're a devout [insert religion].

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is remarkable that in the comments here, present day norms are accepted as natural, even though they were different in recent history, and are bound to be different in the near future as much as the 40 hour work week might become 30, and flexible work hours might lead to adoption of objectively healthier sleep patterns than what industrial society has imposed. Diet, alcohol consumption, coffee drinking, smoking, sleep, the prevalence of prostitution, education, etc., have all changed faster than any claim of being "natural' could set in just by being the current norm.

So much in-the-box thinking.

<comment><USER11> Maybe I'm too set in my ways to see what you're talking about, but I don't see this in the comments.

<comment><USER12> I'm not sure, but perhaps the reference is to comments on Hacker News in general, rather than on this page in particular?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've often felt the opposite. Adulthood is the real deal, the time when you finally have to face the trappings of the day-to-day life, as you will have to until you die. Delaying it doesn't seem to do much good; although advancing it wouldn't really help. What would be better is to prepare for it. Something like the apprenticeships of centuries past would be vastly beneficial today I think.

</comment><comment><USER14> "Studies show" that growing up is bad for your brain? Does this professor tell his students not to get married because it will dull their minds? How depressing.

I'm reminded of the way many 20-somethings think that if they aren't careful, they'll suddenly be married with kids and wondering what happened to their life. Newsflash: If you want to find and build a relationship that will last for the rest of your lives, you have to try at least a little. You can't dare the universe to force a husband/wife and kids on you.

Similarly, being a mature, responsible, independent member of society is not some inevitability that comes crashing down on us eventually, it's an achievement that is pretty easy to avoid by just being sort of dysfunctional and not taking responsibility for yourself and others.

<comment><USER8> > I'm reminded of the way many 20-somethings think that if they aren't > careful, they'll suddenly be married with kids and wondering what happened > to their life. Newsflash: If you want to find and build a relationship that > will last for the rest of your lives, you have to try at least a little. You > can't dare the universe to force a husband/wife and kids on you.

Plenty of people end up married with children simply because of some kind of birth control failure. As a 20-something, I'm rightly terrified of that happening to me. My lifestyle is completely incompatible with children or long-term relationships.

Even talking to happily married people who love their children, I feel like I'm talking to someone with Stockholm syndrome. They say they're happy, they act like they're happy, but I still think I would be miserable in their shoes.

<comment><USER6> Happened to my parents. They were miserable for 14 years until they split. If I'd had a kid at their age, I'd have an 8 year old by now and my life would be shitty too. :/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > The most obvious example is higher education, which has been shown to > stimulate brain development in ways that simply getting older does not.

College, just like the rest of life, stimulates and challenges you only as much as you make it.

Pretending to maintain adolescence will not help by itself, and if your biggest problem is that your life isn't stimulating enough (and you think this is because you're too "adult"), then you certainly have the stability needed to find ways to make it more interesting.

</comment><comment><USER16> Delayed adulthood has already occurred, in some sense, in humanity. Homo sapiens is a neotenous[0] species already, meaning that compared to similar species, we are more similar to their juvenile than mature states.

It's speculative, but I wonder if there could be a connection between delayed adulthood and lengthening lifespans. It "makes sense" in the common-sense meaning that if we stretch out our lifespan, it would also stretch out the various stages of life.

[0] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny)

</comment><comment><USER17> "Studies have found that those with higher I.Q.s, for example, enjoy a longer stretch of time during which new synapses continue to proliferate" this assertion that there is empirical evidence for this hypothesis is almost certainly false.

We just don't have the technology to do this experiment on human beings - <USER2> only species for which this statement can make sense.

I know of some studies which have observed synapse formation in vitro, perhaps one in vivo in animals kept alive through strenuous means, but all in mice and with no simultaneous behavioral examination.

</comment><comment><USER18> I find this article a little odd. The implication is you can't be novelty- seeking and also a mature independent adult. I really don't see how those things are mutually exclusive. Unless your definition of adulthood is simply "not novelty-seeking."</comment>


API on Rails 6 - <AUTHOR> https://leanpub.com/apionrails6 <comment><USER2> The author might want to do a search and replace. I saw at least one reference to Rails 5 in the website.</comment>


How To Merge In Traffic (Seattle, You're Not Going To Like This) - <AUTHOR> http://kuow.org/post/how-merge-traffic-seattle-youre-not-going

<comment><USER2> The article didn't mention this is called a late merge, zipper method, or zipper merge: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_merge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_merge)

</comment><comment><USER3> In Germany this is enshrined in law. It is called the Straßenverkehr Reißverschlusssystem or Reißverschlussverfahren. Basically translates to the traffic-zipper-system.

[http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rei%C3%9Fverschlus...](http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rei%C3%9Fverschlussverfahren)

</comment><comment><USER4> I find that pretty obvious.

One example: I am sitting in a car and will turn to a side road a bit ahead where the road splits in to several lanes. But due to the fact that the que is longer I can't turn on to the second lane. And it have to sit in the que and make it even longer.

</comment><comment><USER5> Of course, it's much worse for the people that want to take an exit before the merge, who have to now sit in two lanes of stopped traffic (or drive on the shoulder, depending on the traffic temperature).

That being said, merging as late as possible is the Nash equilibrium. Embrace it! (although it's clearly better for me if you don't).

<comment><USER6> +1 for Nash

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This seems to fail when people do whatever they can to keep that person from merging and, sometimes, resulting in minor accidents.

<comment><USER8> The key is not to force yourself in. If someone is staying 3" away from the person in front of them and is making every effort to keep you out, just get in behind them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It was wild riding with a Chicago coworker visiting Seattle. Sam used the entirety of paved surfaces knowing other drivers would make way (and often apologize). Both an embarrassing and enlightening experience.</comment>


Creating an English Dictionary Metaphone Lookup Database using PHP and MySQL - <AUTHOR> http://blackbe.lt/creating-an-english-dictionary-metaphone-lookup-database-using-php-and-mysql/

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a bit of a follow up on my recent domain listings. It's a demonstration of how to make use of the English dictionary to find similar available domains. I stop short on explaining how to do so, but it's essentially taking `metaphone('exampledomain')` and querying the value against the metaphone column of the database to check for any matches, implying similarity or sameness.</comment>


How long since Google said a Google Drive Linux client is coming? - <AUTHOR> https://abevoelker.github.io/how-long-since-google-said-a-google-drive-linux-client-is-coming/ <comment><USER2> Forget Google Drive. Just run Nextcloud on your own VPS. I put mine on a digitalocean VPS and it costs me $5 a month for ~20GB of storage.

Nextcloud has great sync clients for linux, iPhone and Windows. (It has clients for Mac and Android too, although I've never used them.) And google doesn't get access to my data or metadata.

[1] [https://nextcloud.com](https://nextcloud.com)

<comment><USER3> For $10 you can get Dropbox (2 TB) data, so I dunno if saving that $5 is worth it in this case. You get the Linux client, and far more reliability in every aspect.

I think, if I really would want to go setting up my own thing to save money, setting/writing some service backed by object storage (AWS S3) would be cheaper and reliable enough.

<comment><USER4> Does Dropbox Linux client still support filesystems other than ext4?

[https://itsfoss.com/dropbox-linux-ext4-only/](https://itsfoss.com/dropbox- linux-ext4-only/)

<comment><USER2> The last-straw motivating reason I switched to nextcloud was because dropbox decided they wouldn't let me sync my files to an ecryptfs file system. (I believe they recanted on this policy a few months later.) I didn't like being held hostage to their bad design decisions, so I left and found a solution that worked better for me. Dropbox has also had some serious security vulnerabilities [1], which left me feeling less than confident in their ability to manage my personal data.

[1] [https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/06/21/dropbox-lets- any...](https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/06/21/dropbox-lets-anyone-log- in-as-anyone/)

<comment><USER5> Thanks for the heads up, I see this confirmed at [https://help.dropbox.com/installs- integrations/desktop/syste...](https://help.dropbox.com/installs- integrations/desktop/system-requirements#linux) under the list of supported file systems on Linux (which is currently ext4, zfs and xfs on 64 bit systems, eCryptFS backed by ext4, and btrfs).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Google also promised a tool to migrate regular accounts to GSuite accounts on Google Plus, since GSuite accounts weren't supported when Google Plus launched. (What kind of lunatic company would support its paying customers? I still can't leave Google Play reviews for the same reason).

I naievely kept using my regular account, even when GSuite accounts became possible, because of course Google would deliver on this promise. Never happened. Seven years later, Google Plus shut down.

</comment><comment><USER7> [https://rclone.org/](https://rclone.org/) works great. Do we need Google to write a client?

<comment><USER8> Pidgin used to work great with gtalk, then Google broke the standard. I guess there's always a fear of that when using a third party client.

<comment><USER9> Anything can happen. We're always at the mercy of the busines decisions of our technology providers. In this case Google can keep the protocol stable and stop supporting the client to the point it stops working after an update of your distro. If you want to be nearly 100% safe you self host whatever the price and the time you have to pour in. Personally I use Syncthing over my home network.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Google has a private linux drive client. It's in use in Google Colab: [https://colab.research.google.com/notebooks/io.ipynb](https://colab.research.google.com/notebooks/io.ipynb)

</comment><comment><USER11> On a related note and hopefully not off-topic, there's a OneDrive Linux client written in D language [1],[2]:

[1] [https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive/](https://github.com/abraunegg/onedrive/)

[2] [https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/office-365/onedrive-o...](https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/office-365/onedrive- on-linux/m-p/1318644)

<comment><USER12> Any reason to use this over rclone? Do you have to use a web browser to get the key?

<comment><USER11> I've never used rclone but according to the OneDrive Client for Linux (OCL) maintainer it does support OneDrive Personal, Business, Office365 and Sharepoint including shared folders for Personal and Business. It also fully supports Azure National Cloud Deployments.

To get the key you need to use the web browser to complete the set up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Interestingly, it does exist as a fuse driver, as can be seen in ChromeOS if you try to open a file (say a PDF) from Drive in the browser, it shows a file path of /media/fuse/.../ . Google have just chosen not to release it publically.

<comment><USER14> [https://github.com/dsoprea/GDriveFS](https://github.com/dsoprea/GDriveFS)

Fuse driver wrapper

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Saves them the trouble of canceling it.

<comment><USER16> This seems to be the lesson of Google. If you depend on the service, find someone else and pay them. Too many services are decommissioned, and if they are replaced it often is very different. Outside of search/email, it is a risk

<comment><USER17> For the record, Google drive is not being decommissioned.

<comment><USER16> The uncertainty is the problem. Until recently I had fairly slow broadband, weeks to sync initially. Changing providers is often do it again, loose history either way, or pay another provider per GB to do it.

The lack of official Linux client was the killer for me years ago, but prior to fibre internet the uncertainty was a big issue too.

People want to plan around services like this remaining. Nothing is certain, but the news quite often talks about Google dropping another service.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Supporting all the weird combinations of kernels and desktop environments and such must be a pain. There was an (internal only) FUSE client, but, as a good google3 binary, had a ton of internal stuff linked, and those can't get out of corp desktop/laptops (might not even work, who knows).

<comment><USER19> This is actually not a hard problem at all. Slack, Steam, heck even Google Chrome have no problems across various distros, and all have pretty good toolbar icon support, notifications, etc.

<comment><USER17> None of them deal with trying to provide a file system interface right?

If you want to compare, compare to Dropbox.

<comment><USER19> What does that have to do with desktop environments?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I also read somewhere (can't find the link now) that there is an internal gDrive client used by google employees (maybe an (ex-)employee can comment) but which was never released

<comment><USER21> Is this[1] what you are referring to?

[1] [https://github.com/odeke-em/drive](https://github.com/odeke-em/drive)

<comment><USER20> Yeah I think so

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> You... don't want their clients, to be honest. I've seen some serious team- breaking bugs all because someone's mouse slipped and a team folder was dragged to a recycle bin.

</comment><comment><USER23> In the meantime you can use rclone, which is a fantastic tool for accessing cloud storage/ftp/sftp/anything with a single tool, including the ability to encrypt and cache data as well as mount volumes via FUSE.

[https://rclone.org/](https://rclone.org/)

one of my absolute top GOTO tools.

</comment><comment><USER24> The google drive OSX client is surprisingly lack luster, as it's merely mounted like a pseudo drive rather than even meeting the standard Dropbox met years ago. Given that they won't write a decent OSX client, I'm unsurprised they haven't followed through on their promises to an even less popular OS.

</comment><comment><USER25> I gave up on waiting for Google and ended up using Syncthing on HN's recommendation.

<comment><USER26> Syncthing is awesome. The next feature I hope they'll manage to get in is "encrypted devices", to allow the use of VPS and other less-trusted devices without losing much in terms of security.

I would be really uneasy to let a third-party have access to my files, when there are such good alternatives.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> It won't ever come. I use InSync on ubuntu and it works exceptionally well. I actually upgraded to the paid 200GB Google drive plan because I started using Drive dramatically more once I installed InSync.

<comment><USER28> Insync is outstanding ([https://www.insynchq.com/](https://www.insynchq.com/)). It's better than the native Google Backup and Sync and works in Linux with multiple desktop variants. It also syncs MS OneDrive. One time purchase. It works great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> This should be on infinite loop in an <audio> tag: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXksOtVbxo8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXksOtVbxo8)

</comment><comment><USER30> Is a client even required? If Drive were to implement a sufficiently-secure NFS connection, isn't that enough?

If I could NFS-mount Drive from within fstab, Google would earn even more of my money.

<comment><USER31> > If I could <use standard protocol or API reliably>, Google would earn more > of my money.

This is wishful thinking. Across their product line Google extends and abuses common standards, or more frequently rolls their own parallel which dominates by virtue of convenience and userbase.

Try using an organizational (GSuite) Google Calendar account from any app that isn't Google Calendar, and it'll quickly become clear that this use-case simply isn't optimized for. Simple things like sharing calendars with write access don't work without finding a particular settings page that hasn't been updated since 2009.

There is also no API for room reservation systems if an organization is using Google Calendar for those that I can find.

And of course, need I mention the casualties of RSS compatible Reader and XMPP/Jabber compatible GTalk?

The parallel to Microsoft's 90s EEE modus operandi is plainly evident. But with Google, it even stretches into web standards. Google has shown little interest in being a good citizen of an open protocol-based ecosystem, except at first to get new users into the walls before they close the gates.

<comment><USER30> Without wishful thought, how can one make wishes?

Standards compliance is good for customers. What is good for customers is ultimately good for the company.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> What does the client need to do? Which would be more useful, desktop GUI or command line? Would it be ok if the client runs on the jvm? Should it be deployed as a systemd service?

</comment><comment><USER33> Not sure if this qualifies but I have Debian on Chrome OS. For me Google Drive is nothing but a symbolic link that I pass stuff back and forth on...

</comment><comment><USER34> Ubuntu file manager has mounting of Google Drive built in. So I've not really noticed the lack of a native client.

<comment><USER35> How do you do that? When I go to File > Connect to Sever then Google Drive isn't an option.

Is it somewhere else?

<comment><USER34> If you add your Google account in 'Settings > Online Accounts' then, in the file manager sidebar right at the bottom, click 'Other Locations' and your Google Drive should be listed there under the 'Networks' heading as '<yourname>@gmail.com'.

 _[DISCLAIMER: I 'm 99% sure that was all that was involved. But I set up that Linux box quite a while back. So apologies if I've forgotten a step and am misleading people!]_

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I use odrive, works better than any native cloud client IMO. Connects to Google Drive and many others.

</comment><comment><USER17> What Google product managers meant to write was "We will release as soon as we hit the year of the 'Linux on the Desktop'". I say, they are still waiting..

<comment><USER37> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobuntu

<comment><USER38> Interesting! Clickable link: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobuntu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobuntu)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> rclone seems to work well enough with Drive for my purposes

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h rclone does work, and quite well, but it's not a _sync_ client; it lets you do a one-off upload/download, or FUSE-mount, neither of which are quite the same thing

<comment><USER40> You could use a systemd timer (or similar) to run sync once a minute or something along those lines. Its not quite the same, but for most peoples purposes itd probably be fine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Wanna make one for pixel watch too

</comment><comment><USER42> Don't worry, the Windows one is pure garbage.

</comment><comment><USER43> It was found written inside the kings chamber of the great pyramid?</comment>


Chile's attempts to move up the lithium value chain are not working - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2019/10/03/chiles-attempts-to-move-up-the-lithium-value-chain-are-not-working <comment><USER2> Cluster effect in action:

1\. If refining lithium only required local input, it would've made sense to refine it locally, and ship to China after that.

2\. In real life, you need to import plant equipment and chemicals by tonnes from China, that makes the final product of local refinement too expensive for Chinese.

</comment><comment><USER3> Chile should focus on exploiting their solar resource. The best area on the planet for solar energy is in their country (and Peru).

<comment><USER4> It's hard to export electricity though. Probably better for economic development to focus on industries that can export.

<comment><USER5> So what? If you make electricity cheap, somebody will put it to good use, and whether it's exported or not, you are improving people's lives.

<comment><USER6> They should at least be a major international proponent of CO2 taxes and improve their chances of becoming a valuable relocation target for energy- intensive industries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is kind of interesting, because import substitution was what Latin America tried more or less as a whole back in the 80s. It didn't work particularly well then, which leaves the question of what to do now?

<comment><USER7> Didn't that also involve lots of tariffs?

> It didn't work particularly well then, [...]

Yes, the government (or some other institution) picking winners doesn't really have a good track record in general.

> [...], which leaves the question of what to do now?

Basically the same as always: simplify local regulations, lower barriers to entry both to foreign people, ideas and capital, and also to local outsider who want to break into existing industries.

Or to make it shorter and more pragramatic: look at what Singapore did when they were at the same stage of development.

<comment><USER8> > Didn't that also involve lots of tariffs?

That's how import substitution works.

> Yes, the government (or some other institution) picking winners doesn't > really have a good track record in general.

Import substitution isn't about picking winners, it's about forcing local industry to pick up the demand.

> look at what Singapore did when they were at the same stage of development.

A city-state is a completely irrelevant comparison to an entire continent.

PS I don't know if import substitution was a good strategy for south american contries to follow. As pointed out, it didn't work very well for them. It did work in other places at other times.

<comment><USER5> Import substitution is when the local population creates competitors for some steps on a production chain, replacing a foreign industry piece by piece. The process is caused by relative advantages that say that an industrializing population must create _something_ , so a mature market is the most likely place to go.

Tariffs have no direct relation to it, and are a large indirect hindrance, since the entire process requires a mature importing market.

<comment><USER7> I was trying to use 'import substitution' like that as well. And that is a useful concept.

But since eg Wikipedia ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization)) only uses the term in the other meaning, I'm going to concede the term.

Let's find a different term to describe the process 'local population creates competitors for some steps on a production chain, replacing a foreign industry piece by piece. [...]'

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This could also be plain bad timing.

There has been some breakthroughs for using aluminum in high voltage applications. That could have had a negative impact on investments.

</comment><comment><USER10> It's the guano story all over again!

</comment><comment><USER11> South America has always had a brain-drain problem. The best universities in SA are... not globally notable. Widespread suspicion of academia, fostered by both conservative Christian parties and populist socialist ones, makes it difficult for South American universities to thrive and compete internationally. Many people draw comparisons to Southeast Asia and Korea, major recent success stories — there, scholarly professions and institutions are more respected, which, I think, has helped high-tech industries catch up to the OECD more rapidly than their South American counterparts.

</comment><comment><USER12> [https://outline.com/HBFgk3](https://outline.com/HBFgk3)

</comment><comment><USER13> I thought Bolivia and Afghanistan were the leaders in lithium

<comment><USER14> It's important to note the difference between the two main sources of lithium. Chile and Bolivia has lithium in the form of brines (mainly Lithium Cloride, high concentration, relatively easy to extract) and ores (pegmatite, hard to extract, as requires mechanical work to grind the rock). the region of the north of Chile, Bolivia and Argentina has the mayority of reserves of the world, following by Afghanistan. Australia has a lot of pegmatite.

<comment><USER13> Thank you, and seriously; how the heck do you this?

(I just want to know how someone learns this information to begin with)

<comment><USER14> i'm a chemical engineer from chile, so at least i have to know something about local minery, right?

<comment><USER13> What do you engineer, I want to know more abt you</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Redis can now batch operations and execute them atomically - <AUTHOR> http://groups.google.com/group/redis-db/msg/c644795685ee024f

<comment><USER2> Of course, like everything else in Redis, this only works when all the keys in question are located on a single host.

<comment><USER3> Yes indeed, the plan with redis-cluster is to support multi-key operations only if all they keys hash the same (the user can enforce this by using the special key-tags, for instance 1234.{foo} and 4567.{foo} will be guaranteed to hash the same).

So it will be up to the application logic to make sure that all the keys that are required to be used with multi-keys operations will be on the same node.

But what I think is that if one wants to write a really distributed and scalable application that can use already some form of application-level partitioning, or that can will use redis-cluster in the future, the way to go is to just use Redis single-key atomic operations, and try to make the application resistent against minor inconsistencies that can be calculated before hand.

For instance in the email linked in the story we are talking about a very common pattern. Example: for X be put in category Y it's needed to have two sets, one is like X.categories where there is the Y category ID, and one is Y.objects where there is the X object ID. Writing a distributed application that is designed to scale with multiple nodes using redis-cluster or any other solution, the best thing to do is that the application itself is able to deal with the case of Y id being in X and X id not in Y or the contrary.

<comment><USER2> Do you have a reply this redis list mail raising the limitations of client- side sharding?

[http://groups.google.com/group/redis- db/browse_thread/thread...](http://groups.google.com/group/redis- db/browse_thread/thread/a0b74a92c09f9d96)

(Basically, if the key space of a server is being altered, the server needs to know about it so as not to return false results.)</comment></comment></comment>