Bay Area wages soaring but still can't keep up with housing prices - <AUTHOR> http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/09/25/bay-area-wages-soaring-but-still-cant-keep-up-with-housing-prices/ <comment><USER2> One interesting question to ask is, where is all this money, that people are spending on housing, going?

Owners of rental property are obviously doing well. The other group making out are people who have owned property here during the times that prices have been appreciating and who sell and move out of the area; anyone who buys the property after them has to make the now-inflated mortgage payments.

And I think the question we should ask as a society is, is this how things should work? The reason property here has become so valuable, and continues to become even more valuable, doesn't have that much to do with the individual contributions of the property owners. _Somebody_ has to own the real estate of the area, after all; from a societal standpoint it doesn't matter very much who that is. Rather, the value is being created by the local economy _collectively_. The reason Silicon Valley is such a great place to start a tech business is because of all the tech businesses that are already here, and all the people already working for them. Does it really make sense for _property owners_ to receive such a large fraction of the value being created?

And let's be clear: the property owners wind up with most of it. Those of us living in the Valley, and commanding salaries that sound positively royal to the rest of America, are not actually living much (or any) better than most Americans. Most of the additional value we create by working for these high- tech companies is being siphoned off by property owners. Even if you own property in the Valley, if you bought it recently, your mortgage payments are going to cover a large check written to one of the previous owners.

Those familiar with the work of Henry George [0] will understand that I am summarizing his argument. If you live in the Bay Area, I urge you to read his work. I think the Bay Area desperately needs a land value tax system. Yes, it would change the character of the area. But that character is changing anyway. Short of forbidding newcomers from moving here -- and how would one do that? -- there's no way to stop continued urbanization. But, I understand that that's not happening anytime soon.

This brings me to good old Prop. 13. Kim-Mai Cutler [1] points out that Prop. 13 disincentivizes cities from approving residential construction, since they realize more tax revenue from commercial buildings.

Prop. 13 needs to be revised. The key change that is needed is that instead of limiting the amount of property taxes, we need to limit the tax _payments_ only. Here's how that would work. The locality would impose whatever tax rate it saw fit, by whatever processes were in effect pre-Prop. 13. However, the homeowner's _payment_ in a given year would be limited by the Prop. 13 formula. The locality would receive a lien on the difference, that lien not becoming due _until the property is sold_. This would allow localities to participate in the appreciation of property values; the windfall wouldn't _all_ go to the property owner. Yet, it still protects those on fixed incomes from being forced out of their homes by property taxes -- the primary selling point of Prop. 13.

[0] [http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm](http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm)

[1] [https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf- housing/](https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/)

<comment><USER3> The first think that comes to mind is if we are going to have homeowners "share" their gain with society, will society "share" any loses with homeowners?

Homeowners carry most (unless the mortgage fails) of the risk around housing prices. If a town goes to crap and a $500K house drops to $250K, will society then help cover that loss?

<comment><USER2> > if we are going to have homeowners "share" their gain with society, will > society "share" any losses with homeowners?

You're questioning whether we should have property taxes at all. As long as we do, the principle that property owners share their gains with society is established. And certainly, if property values fall, taxes should (and I believe generally do) as well. So to that extent, it already happens.

Governments need a certain amount of money to function. The question is, what is the best _structure_ for the taxation system. Should we tax property? Income? Consumption?

There seems to be general agreement among economists that a land value tax is the least inefficient form of tax. Read Henry George if you want to know why.

<comment><USER3> I'm not questioning having property taxes. I'm questioning a proposal based on the idea that any capital gains from real estate should be shared with society. Right now, most people pay zero tax on their primary homehold capital gains.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I toured an open house in Sunnyvale yesterday to have a look at what $1.7M buys you these days. 1900 sq ft, four bedrooms, two and a half baths, a nicely remodeled kitchen and a small patch of yard. And I asked the realtors if they expected to get any offers. They already had offers but they are waiting until Monday to sit down and sift through them. And then the big question, could they describe the type of people buying these houses?

The answer was couples where both parents worked in the tech industry with a combined income of over $300,000. Usually one child and often one on the way, many have houses already further away (Livermore, Gilroy, Morgan Hill) that they are selling.

Now that is unscientific, it is the experience of one broker who is sitting in one open house, showing the house to prospective buyers and gently quizzing them on their financials in order to understand if they are good prospects or not. But I can see other evidence that its probably accurate, the folks moving into my neighborhood fit that profile. A lot of people looking for "good schools" because if you don't pay private school tuition that saves you $15,000 per kid per year you can put into house payments.

My point being that the houses are being listed and sold in a short time frame. That suggests that the housing market is pricing appropriately for the buyers. That there are more buyers than houses pushes up the price and pushes out the buyers who do not earn as much. However, unlike San Francisco, there is a _lot_ of residential building being put up on the peninsula and south toward San Jose. Across a wide spectrum from apartments to condos to single family attached, and single family detached. Sunnyvale has a ballot measure ([https://sunnyvalepubliclandsact.com/](https://sunnyvalepubliclandsact.com/)) that is seeking to limit how the city can transfer park land to developers to turn into houses (or hotels, or office parks). That measure is an artifact of all the building that is going on.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not exactly a reply, but in nearby Fremont, there's more going on than Californians relocating from nearby commuting communities. There is a non- trivial amount of money coming in from other countries to bid up property as well. Offering my own anecdote, I received a flyer in the mail about a year ago from a local realtor who is well known and has a sizable business (I don't want to promote him by naming him here). He explicitly stated in his flyer that sellers should dress their homes specifically to market to Indian buyers, because Indians made up 90% of his buyers at the time.

<comment><USER4> _" There is a non-trivial amount of money coming in from other countries to bid up property as well."_

That is true and one of my neighbors was a realtor for 20 years and has a number of friends who advertise in foreign countries that they can find you an investment property in California. Typically though, those buyers seem to be "status invested" rather than simply buying a house. So they look for places in San Francisco, or Palo Alto, or Saratoga (places where there is some status associated with owning a home there) rather than say Sunnyvale or Santa Clara.

That said, my neighbor came to the US on an H1B with his wife and daughter, is working for a local tech company, and his parents gave him the money for a 20% down payment on his house. That saved him the more typical path it seems of getting a starter house, building a bit of equity and then trading up to a larger house. I expect that being foreign nationals they don't have the gift tax burden that US parents do.

On the one hand that is foreign capital fueling higher house prices but at the same time my wife and I got a loan from her parents to help buy our original house, so I don't consider it out of the ordinary if the parents can help out.

<comment><USER5> There is no gift tax burden (except a little paperwork) on the first $5 million of lifetime gifting. Plenty for a house down payment.

<comment><USER6> There is a burden in that the $5 million lowers your estate tax exemption. Whereas you can give $14k a year with no tax impact.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Silicon Valley wages would have to increase by something like 3x--or house prices would have to drop by over 50%--to make houses here as affordable as the national average. Neither is likely to happen.

A median house in San Mateo County costs 11.3x median county income. A median house nationally costs only 3.3x median national income. So if you wish to buy a house in this area (and of course many people may prefer to rent), you should avoid moving here unless you can make those numbers work.

The reality for homebuyers is a bit worse than even those numbers indicate. Income taxes in California are very high, and most of the SF and peninsula housing stock is older and smaller than the national average. The median San Mateo County home is 1500 sq. ft; the median national home is closer to 2,500 sq. ft.

Construction, renovation, and maintenance costs are higher as well. Gas taxes are higher than the national average, sales taxes are higher, electricity costs are higher, etc. SF and peninsula municipalities have planning reviews that can add tens of thousands of dollars, plus state requirements (Title 24) and local requirements (no site development without survey, civil engineer, etc.) that add still more. Also geotechnical reviews and more expensive foundations--remember we're in earthquake country, folks.

On the other hand, we have very pleasant weather. :)

\---

Sources: San Mateo County's median home value is $1.13M[1]. The county's median household income is approx. $100K[2]. A house costs 11.3x income. [1] [http://www.zillow.com/san-mateo-ca/home-values/](http://www.zillow.com/san- mateo-ca/home-values/) [2] [http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/08/28/can-working- class-fami...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/08/28/can-working-class- families-afford-)

The national median home is $188K[3]. The median national household income is $56.5K[4]. A house costs 3.3x income. [3] [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/median-home- price-2...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/median-home- price-2014_n_4957604.html) [4] [http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press- releases/2016/cb16-158....](http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press- releases/2016/cb16-158.html)

<comment><USER8> For the price of an okay family home in an okay neighborhood of Palo Alto you can buy a villa in the South of France...

I'm still not sure how to process that.

<comment><USER9> You do realize one can live an hour drive from Palo Alto and have a place than the 25% of the price in Palo Also? And the commute time is much shorter than from France. It is just that people want to be close as possible to work.

<comment><USER10> The only place within an hour of Palo Alto where this might have been true is East Palo Alto. It's adjacent to PA. It is still a somewhat dangerous community.

That's changing. Prices in EPA are now >50% of equivalent housing in PA, and rising rapidly through the same processes that have given us $1.7 million starter homes elsewhere in the Bay Area.

There's really nowhere within an hour of PA that has home prices even 50% of PA, much less 25%. Three hours, maybe.

<comment><USER11> Union City across the Dumbarton Bridge should be less than 50%. It's 22 minutes with no traffic. You can also get to SF in 40 minutes on BART.

I've lived in a home similar to [http://www.zillow.com/homes/34404-Torrey- Pine-Ln,-Union-City...](http://www.zillow.com/homes/34404-Torrey-Pine- Ln,-Union-City,-CA-94587_rb/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> And home prices are, what, 8x to 15x US average?

You can buy a great house in Omaha for $150,000, a comparable home in the valley would run $2,500,000 or more. And yes, you can get a job in Omaha that pays well!

Unfortunately, many people now have to treat the valley as a stepping stone, it's a gauntlet to endure long enough to make substantial money and then they have to get out. Get rich from options or some other liquidation event, then pack up and move to a place where cost of living is vaguely reasonable. For many people, the only way to stay in the valley longterm, establish a household, maybe have a family with kids, and comfortably afford a generic "middle class" standard of life, is with a truly significant payout, the type of payout that would define someone as "rich" elsewhere in the USA.

I know this is uncomfortable and unpopular to discuss, and we're all very fortunate to even entertain such discussions especially compared to the hardships of most Americans and global citizens, but who in tech has not experienced this? Whether it's the enticement to go work in the valley for some theoretical payday, or the feeling you must leave once you reach X net worth otherwise you'll never be able to actually afford it?

<comment><USER13> Omaha has no homes that are comparable to Bay Area homes, because all the homes in Omaha are in Omaha.

Some people like Omaha. That's fine. But if you want a mix of city culture, a range of excellent restaurants, bars, a reasonable public transit system, and the particular outdoor options that the Bay Area has, then Omaha isn't an option.

Maube this sounds facile, but it's important. It's not like San Francisco is expensive purely because of the economy or the government or whatever. It's expensive because lots of people want the things it has to offer.

<comment><USER14> It is facile. You can insert any 2 areas for "Omaha" and "Bay Area" and much if not all of what you says remains true. Denver is also known for nearly everything you mention except valley companies. Our housing is a fraction of bay area prices. Heck, even places like Portland, ME offer all but similar ethnic diversity and their home costs are a small fraction bay area prices.

The difference at play is not culture. The difference is housing market restrictions, median wages and company + worker density. Every city has cultural, food and geographic advantages. To word it that the Bay Area is nearly strictly superior is to frankly confuse the issue entirely.

<comment><USER13> I didn't say it was strictly superior.

Denver has snow. It doesn't have a comparable food scene.

Portland, ME is small and has cold winters. Did you mean Portland, OR? Again, big climate difference.

Again, it's not whether one is better or not. That's personal preference. But the Bay Area has excellent cultural amenities and a pleasant climate. There are many people for whom that is important. There's a reason so many people say that they'd love to live in Chicago if it weren't for the winters.

If that doesn't apply to you, congratulations! You can save money! Personally, I like being in the Bay Area, and the things I like about it aren't available in Omaha or Denver.

<comment><USER15> "and the things I like about it aren't available in Omaha or Denver" Like $4 gas and $6 bagels?

Or is the the ability to belong to a group of people that can afford $4 gas and $6 bagels that's notably missing from other places?

<comment><USER13> It's the height of irony that your post (which seems to be suggesting that the only reason I prefer San Francisco is snobbishness) is fundamentally predicated on a disbelief that anyone could reasonably have preferences different from your own.

If you don't think the Bay Area has amenities worth paying for, that's ok. I do. Many other people do too. Different people like different things. That's ok.

This is obviously besides the point that I've never paid $4 for gas or $6 for a bagel in San Francisco.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> What this article and many of the comments fail to mention is the supply side of the conversation. If you drive south from San Fran to San Jose you can probably count all the building more than 10 stories along the way. This price spike is entirely manufactured by the policies of those already living in this region.

</comment><comment><USER17> As a young(late 20's) Software Developer and San Francisco resident who loves the weather(who doesn't love yearly temp range of 50-70) and the city feeling(being able to walk/muni everywhere), what are some alternatives?

My wife and I are DINK's, so the suburbs are too sleepy for us, and we've done the driving life style in the South, which we hated.

<comment><USER18> Seattle has similar temperature range and city living, probably about as close as you'll get to San Francisco in a city with tons of good tech jobs. I left my car in the Bay Area when I moved here and walk everywhere, the only time I drive is to go hiking and similar. Seattle is expensive but less so than the Bay Area.

Lack of income tax in Seattle/Washington is huge if you make tech wages. My mortgage in downtown Seattle is less than the additional income taxes I would pay if I lived in California!

<comment><USER17> How are the local laws and politics? I feel like SF/CA have a lot of regressive housing policies that some other US cities are trying to adopt.

<comment><USER18> Much better than the Bay Area, they are throwing up high density construction about as fast as they can build it (there are about a hundred sky cranes over the city right now), both glass skyscrapers in the downtown core and mid-rise buildings (4-6 stories) in the immediately adjacent desirable neighborhoods like Capitol Hill. Minimal restrictions on new construction.

Importantly, zoning is intentionally mixed, so a significant fraction of the population doesn't drive for much of anything unless they choose to move way into the suburbs and it is a very neighborhood-y city. When a building goes in, the lower floor is often restaurants/bars/retail/etc to allow everything to be local. This is important because Seattle's highways are at max capacity and they can't be expanded anymore due to geological limitations (surrounded by water, no unused land remaining). The only way to continue the insane pace of population growth is to build up in a way that minimizes the amount of driving required, so that is how they have been dealing with it.

<comment><USER17> Is public transportation good as well?

<comment><USER19> it's decent. not world-class, but getting better. the light rail was recently extended and future plans for expansion seem to be met with approval, although they're at least a decade off. the buses are crowded during peak hours which at least means they're being used. in my opinion, a lot of the region's problems with transportation stem from the sudden spike in people living here and the challenging nature of the geography. for example, a bus from Queen Anne to Captiol Hill is not exactly practical because there's a big lake in the way, so anybody wanting to bus between the two has to change buses somewhere downtown or walk some leg of the trip.

<comment><USER20> Is it possible to walk to work? I've always been enamoured by Seattle thanks to Valve and Microsoft, hopefully I'll move there in the near future.

<comment><USER18> Yes, walking to work is definitely an option, a significant percentage of the population does exactly that, with biking being another very popular option for people that want to live in the suburbs. My commute to work in Seattle has always been walking, across multiple offices and companies.

Tech companies in Seattle are clustered in a few different neighborhoods, but most of them are walkable from their respective neighborhoods. That said, tech companies are slowly migrating toward the greater downtown area due to the gravitational pull of techies that want to live there. And everything in the greater downtown area is walkable if you don't mind walking (and people in Seattle don't). It isn't a small area.

Microsoft specifically, though, is still mostly on the "east side" (the metro area has a 88 square kilometer lake in the middle, Seattle proper is between the "west side" of the lake and the bay). Microsoft has offices in the major urban neighborhoods but still have a huge campus in Redmond (an east side suburb).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It makes no sense these days to buy in the silicon valley.

I was talking to some people renting out their house for about 3500 dollars a month. It's a single story ranch house (3 bed 2 bath) that they bought in the eighties for 150k. It's now worth about 1.5 million.

Doing the math, a mortgage + insurance + property taxes on a 1.2 million dollar mortage (less 300k for the down payment) is about 7k. And rents should be inherently higher than house payments. Why would you buy when you could just rent, and not deal with any of the maintenance and stuff?

<comment><USER22> For me in Texas, I am kicking myself for paying $800 rent a month for 4 years now (so I've "given" $40k to my landlord). That 40k I've given away would be really nice to help me do a down payment on a house I'd like to buy (or anything I'd like to buy). But if I was "giving" away $7k a month, I'd be really kicking myself...

<comment><USER21> Hey I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm trying to understand your point of view.

You didn't "give" 40k to your landlord. You paid him for the use of his property, which presumably gave you shelter, kept you warm, gave you a place to park your car and keep your stuff, and he would fix anything that went wrong.

That, to me, would like be me kicking myself for "giving" a hotel a couple hundred dollars for a room for a couple of days.

A house provides you with shelter and warmth, and presumably provides these things to your family. You're paying money to take advantage of these things. Why is renting so much different from buying?

<comment><USER2> One might add, the amount of a mortgage payment that goes toward interest -- which is most of it at the beginning, and the fraction comes down only slowly -- is just as "wasted" as rent would have been.

<comment><USER21> Well, the interest part of the mortgage payment is tax deductible, so that offsets things somewhat. Not 100%, but somewhat.

Basically the amount you're paying in interest is tax-deductible, but you're not building equity.

<comment><USER23> This benefit is often overestated (especially in discussions focused on the parts of the country with the highest housing costs (which is to say, places unlike Texas)).

This guy was paying $800/mo for rent, so presumably he'd be looking at mortgages near that cost. If so, he'd almost certainly just take the standard deduction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> As long as there is more demand than supply, wages will never keep up with housing prices. It's a simple matter of math (the pigeon hole principle, actually).

<comment><USER22> >> (the pigeon hole principle, actually).

IE if there are 10 houses for rent and 11 people want to rent, there will be one house in which will have two people trying to rent it.. lol

<comment><USER25> They could live in the same house.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> What if large companies built on-campus employee housing on top of their parking lots and moved the parking lots below ground? They could make a "corporate" city by adding a mall, hospital, child care/schooling. Imagine being able to have lunch with your family everyday; having a 15 minute walk to work.

<comment><USER27> Zoning often prevents it. Only recently did Mountain View approve housing north of 101.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> It's not about how much you make, it's about how much you save and the cost of living. An article could also be published about how the average US wage is 5x the wages in another country.

What would that mean? Nothing by itself. What matters is this, after your expenses how much do you have saved? How long will what you save a month last you if you were out of work? How long will you be able to find a replacement job? What options do you have in moving to a cheaper place? What lifestyle do you get to experience by being in a particular environment? All that matters.

I get Silicon Valley envy from time to time, spoke to my buddy who moved and use to have a 5-10minute commute. Now he has a 2hr one way commute since he's trying to save money. Yet his rent is 50% more. I doubt he's saving more. He keeps trying to serenade me to move. I run the numbers, and I would have to make a whole lotta money for SV to be worth it. :-(

</comment><comment><USER29> It's really uninformative to look at average incomes or average prices anywhere, let alone someplace with as big of a spread as the Bay Area.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very true. In 2014, the average tech worker salary in San Mateo County was $291,497.

But if you took out one specific tech worker, it dropped by $80,000 to $211,000. Mark Zuckerberg's income alone impacted the average by $80,000 across an entire county [0].

It impacted the median by, probably $0.

Edit: For completeness;

US Median Household Income: $51,939 [1]

San Mateo County: $79,548 [2]

Not quite as newsworthy...

[0] [http://valleywag.gawker.com/average-tech-wages-up- to-291-497...](http://valleywag.gawker.com/average-tech-wages-up- to-291-497-in-san-mateo-county-1625755095)

[1] [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&e...](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=meadian+US+household+income)

[2] [http://citylab.news21.com/data/types/19/](http://citylab.news21.com/data/types/19/)

<comment><USER30> A nitpick, but "average" can refer to any sort of central tendency, whether it's the arithmetic mean, the harmonic mean, the median, the trimean or anything else.

<comment><USER31> You may be technically correct regarding the common usage of the word "average". However, "average" is most commonly used to refer to the arithmetic mean. Using the word "average" to refer to the median is bad writing, and furthermore, using the arithmetic mean instead of the median to represent the "central tendency" of a distribution that is highly skewed and/or has extreme outliers is bad statistics. Journalists who are going to write about these things should know better.

<comment><USER30> > Using the word "average" to refer to the median is bad writing

It can be, but not necessarily. Otherwise, you'd have to say that the average Joe has 1.9 legs. Median or mode are much more natural in that context.

Other than that, not trying to make any particular point, of course you're right that using the arithmetic mean is a lousy practice for many kinds of data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> The valley and SF need to build more, but eventually we need to accept that many talented technology workers will neither wish to nor be able to live in a small peninsula in central northern California.

High tech companies will change then they need to change. If they find that they are not able to access a high quality workforce in the numbers they need unless they allow their workforce to live in other areas, and they lose out to competitors who do allow this, they will change.

I've been beating a drum here on HN, and I know that people are probably getting tired of hearing about it, but here it goes again... we must not allow employers to control the residency and work rights of their employees. All workers, technology and otherwise, immigrant or born in the US, must be free to pursue their educational path, career path, and place of employment according to market signals and their own personal interests and abilities. Anything else, at scale, will produce harmful market distortions and is an affront to personal freedom.

If employees who have the right to make this choice are not choosing to subject themselves to brutal housing costs in spite of salaries that silicon valley employers insist are at shortage-indicating highs, that's the market's answer. We should welcome immigrants, but we should not welcome Facebook's control over an immigrant's right to decide what to study, where to work, or what profession to choose as a condition of coming to the united states.

As long as corporations have this coercive power over individuals on a large scale, expect nothing to change. Remarkably, the corporations who lobby for this sort of massive personal power over technical workers often wear the halo of being "pro-immigrant".

"You may live and work in the United States provided that you take the technical interview exams I insist you take, study the fields I insist you study, live in the high cost region I insist you live in, work on the projects I insist you work on, for the salary I've decided is fair". Why do they get away with this?

</comment><comment><USER33> We're shopping for a new home in Silicon Valley and are also considering picking up. Median home price in Mountain View for a single family home is around 1.7M. This price has about doubled in the past 5 years.

The schools are variable as rated which also rules out some areas for us. We have a small child at home and need to find someplace to start him in public school.

I think we will sit tight for a while and see what prices do. Most sites I've looked at call for a leveling off on price over the next year. This would help us increase the amount for our down payment and get into a property we could afford with decent schools.

Luckily our rent is very low (<$2000 for a 2b).

</comment><comment><USER34> At what point will the drive back to equilibrium occur, and hopefully rational free market actors figure out you can hack anywhere in the country and that there are many other places you can work or set up shop?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's just like Hollywood attracting actors, directors and producers.

As long as there is the factor of prestige, Silicon Valley is going to continue to see this nearly unbelievable housing market. If there were a true tech crash, like the dot-com bubble bursting, we'd see a slow down. But in order for there to be a sustained weakening, Apple, Google, Facebook, and the Y Combinators of the valley will all have to see a substantial weakening in profitability.

It's the high salaries they are able to pay to legions of workers that is primarily responsible for housing prices. That's what this article is about.

<comment><USER34> My point is hackers are idealistic supposed to be more rational--I was sarcastic in my post, but statistically, they should be more rational. I don't know if I need to break this to any of you, but you can hack on anything. I learned C on an island with a 28 kbps internet (that was metered). I didn't have to fly to SV to attend a code bootcamp and shell out hundreds to a thousand dollars. Also, the internet is a wonderful thing, being connected to people has never been easier.

My point is that no Apple, et. al, you can't keep extracting heat from the system and violate the second law of thermodynamics, at some point, people will evaluate the costs and people will be more and more reluctant to relocate to SV just to have a shot.

<comment><AUTHOR> Allow me to say it a little differently, then. As long as profits flow to silicon valley companies from around the world, people from around the world will also flow there, and housing prices will increase.

So I'd say that the heat is being extracted from the world's population (dollars from their pockets) and as long as that source is plentiful, the growth will continue. Since the global standard of living is increasing, the world's ability to buy iPhones and thereby consume Internet advertising presented by Google and Facebook, all continues to grow.

Come to think of it, it may be self sustaining. How many HN readers came to SV with a job offer in hand? The more profitable the companies are, the bigger the delta between what SV pays and what the ROW pays and the more people will be willing to take the plunge.

This could go on for a very long time.

(Google + Apple + Facebook pre-tax profit = ~$20 billion _in the last 3 months_.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> > Bay Area wages soaring but still can't keep up with housing prices

Wages are soaring because businesses are trying to hire people faster than local supply of talent can respond, driving up the market clearing price of labor. But that means that people are making more in the Bay Area, and there are more of them working (and thus, wanting to live) in the Bay Area -- both of which are factors driving up demand for housing, and thus price.

Its thus unsurprising that the wages can't keep up with housing prices, since they are one of several means by which housing prices are being driven up.

</comment><comment><USER36> Then this today -- wonder why? "New report shows rents falling in San Jose, San Francisco" [http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/09/25/new-report-shows- rents...](http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/09/25/new-report-shows-rents- falling-in-san-jose-and-san-francisco/)

</comment><comment><USER37> Rent, in combination with California taxes, and cost of living, makes it very challenging to save in comparison to other states.

</comment><comment><USER38> Housing is proportionally higher cost but many things aren't that much more expensive in the Bay, which helps cancels it out. Plus if you're willing to commute, rent and/or live with other people, it all helps (unlike that Yelp lady who got her own place, kept her car, etc...).

<comment><USER39> You are describing an area that is perfectly acceptable for unattached 20-somethings but more or less untenable for young families.

<comment><USER40> Look at how families in the US were raised historically in big cities or even in the suburbs. People were happy with much less space than is considered "untenable" today.

<comment><USER39> Do you really think this is a persuasive argument for raising a family in a shared 2-bedroom apartment?

<comment><USER40> No, but many people who want kids seem to think that they need so much space. Someone upthread lamented how small the housing stock in SFBay was at "only" an average of 1500 sq ft. That was the normal sized house 50 yrs ago regardless of how many kids there were.

<comment><USER39> What's the median price of a 2bdr condo in SFBA right now? Because if you're planning to raise a family in SFBA, that's what you need. You can't rent it, because you can't routinely move small families --- changing school districts is incredibly disruptive for children --- and you would be somewhat lucky to keep a good 2bdr apartment for 5 years, let alone 12-15.

<comment><USER40> Why do you state your opinions as if they were facts? I moved out of state 5 times as a child. It wasn't that bad. It is actually normal if your parents are in the military or work in the oil and gas sector.

Also, it is incredibly hard to evict tenants in SF or Oakland. People routinely live in the same apartment for 20+ years.

<comment><USER39> Less than a quarter of SF tenants have kept their apartments for 10 years. We may have different definitions of "routine".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> The only way I would live in SF again is in a van.

There is no reason to throw your money away on that housing market, just bank your salary and count the days until you leave.

</comment><comment><USER42> What's the starting salary for a front-end dev from jr to intermediate to sr. in the valley/san fran now?

Here in the Mid-Atlantic it ranges from 60k to 150k.

<comment><USER43> 90K is the average according to glassdoor:

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-front- end-d...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-front-end- developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,33.htm)

You really can't afford to make less than 100K out here though unless you can stand roommates.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Those in favor of a forced $15 min wage should take note. More money in The Market gives others the opportunity to see what increases it can bear.

That is, to presume you can increase income and all other costs will remain fixed is naive.

<comment><USER45> You might have a point in we lived in a free market where the FED didn't spend $6+ Trillion (with a T) in the last 8 years alone to artificially prop up real estate and equity markets.

<comment><USER46> > _You might have a point in we lived in a free market where the FED didn 't > spend $6+ Trillion (with a T) in the last 8 years alone_

The Fed didn't "spend" $6TT; they exchanged one asset for another that was in high demand. Also, do you have any idea how much wealth disintegrated in 2007-2008?</comment></comment></comment>


PostgreSQL versus Oracle - <AUTHOR> http://diznix.com/2010/07/27/postgresql-versus-oracle/ <comment><USER2> Here's the article in Bing's cache: [http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=http%3a%2f%2fdiznix.com%2f2...](http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=http%3a%2f%2fdiznix.com%2f2010%2f07%2f27%2fpostgresql- versus-oracle%2f&d=5010835797704716&mkt=en-US&setlang=en- US&w=4f5aaf93,222626b0)

Microsoft: Champion of the persistent web!?

<comment><USER3> > Microsoft: Champion of the persistent web!?

what?

Here is the google cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ge0OdZ2...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ge0OdZ2RVe4J:diznix.com/2010/07/27/postgresql- versus-oracle/+&cd=1&hl=es&ct=clnk&gl=ar)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "the PostgreSQL version in use was 8.4.4."

Does anyone know if text search performance is significantly different in the (as of 2012-04-23) latest version, 9.1.3?

</comment><comment><USER5> Presumably deleted because Oracle's terms of use prohibit the publishing of benchmarks.

<comment><USER6> Any idea if that's everywhere, or only here in the US with our record of being completely useless about prosecuting anti-competitiveness?

<comment><USER7> EULAs are only valid in some jurisdictions.

Of course, even if one lives in a jurisdiction where they're not, it would take some guts to stand up to Oracle's lawyers. And to convince your ISP, your government, etc. to stand up to Oracle's lawyers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> An Oracle DBA pointed out to me years ago that MySQL performed better under certain circumstances. It seems like PostGres does a pretty good job keeping up with Oracle features and is much more open and customizable. I am sure PostGres excels in many areas and is a suitable substitute for Oracle for many projects.

Does it have equivalent functionality to some of the more recent Oracle features like flashback queries and analytic functions (with windowing etc)? Are there any areas where Oracle clearly excels?

<comment><USER5> Postgres has window functions, and I believe it supports the full ANSI windowing function feature set.

Nothing like Oracle's flashback queries. It used to have a feature called time travel which allowed you to look at historical versions of data, something they could do thanks to MVCC. It was removed, presumably because it caused performance issues or was too complex to maintain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Mmm...so this was a test that compared a production server that is presumedly under load against a test server that is seeing no load other than the testing?

</comment><comment><USER8> Or here: <http://diznix.com/2010/07/27/>

</comment><comment><USER10> Interesting that they're testing full-text search on the two, it would be very interesting to benchmark it against something like ElasticSearch or another scalable full-text search engine to see how fast that would be by comparison.

<comment><USER5> Yep. ElasticSearch is actually quite slow, as text engines go. It seems designed to scale, rather than provide single-machine performance.

Even so we are seeing very slow queries on our 8-node cluster, even for relatively simple queries and small datasets. It seems very sensitive to the result set size (ie., the maximum item number set in the query). A limit of 50 might take 500ms (which is slow but acceptable in our case) whereas 1000 results might take 3-4 _seconds_. The indexes are all in OS cache so disk performance is not the bottleneck.

<comment><USER10> I'd be interested to know what your index looks like / how the mapping is set up / what the datasize is / what sort of queries you're making, because that's definitely not my experience with it. It's lighting fast on my workloads.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm not sure about the current version of Oracle, but the one I used did not support nested WITH clauses. Pain in the lower part of the back if you want to compose and optimize queries. PostgreSQL has no such silly trouble.

</comment><comment><USER12> Am I missing the joke?

<comment><USER13> WordPress is MySQL-only.</comment></comment>


Vimrcfu – Share your best vimrc snippets - <AUTHOR> http://vimrcfu.com

<comment><AUTHOR> I made this site last night. It's still very basic but the core functionality is there, so I thought I'd release it.

Please participate on vimrcfu and share your comments about the site here. Thank you!</comment>


How Maritime Insurance Helped Build Ancient Rome - <AUTHOR> http://priceonomics.com/how-maritime-insurance-built-ancient-rome/ <comment><USER2> Conversely, risk and financing of sea voyages delayed utilisation of the lateen rig sail -- the triangular sail familiar on sloops, as opposed to older square-rig designs -- until about the 13th century.

This risk-aversion actually _increased_ risks and costs of sailing: shipping could only occur from March through November, even across the relatively calm waters of the Mediterranean, and ships could only sail before the wind, not into it.

There's a brief discussion of this in James Burke's _Connections_ (1977), though I'd expect more complete coverage in his sources.

This makes me think of financing and risk controls and their effects over technology adoption.

</comment><comment><USER3> Ah, Flexport PR again.

The classic work on the history of marine insurance is "Against the Gods: The Remarkable Story of Risk" by Bernstein. This is heavily oriented towards Lloyds of London. It doesn't trace insurance back to the Romans.

Plowing through the reference to Temin[1], there's a long discussion of wheat distribution in Rome. Too much regression analysis applied to too little data. Temen then recaps Economics 101 at some length.

After jumping around through history, Temin finally focuses on the Roman era. He writes "The Roman "company" was a sophisticated information-sharing institution.", but says little about what a "company" meant. The Romans never invented the concept of the corporation. They got close. They never developed ongoing non-state institutions bigger than a rich individual. There were transient organizations such as venture groups, ("societas") where a group of people bought shares in a plan to send a ship somewhere and profit from the trade. The venture dissolved at the end of the voyage when the parties were paid off. (This is where the term "venture capital" comes from.) This is risk- sharing, but not insurance. There was something called a "societates publicanorum", which was close to a corporation, but more like a limited partnership. But the historical references are thin and questionable.[2] Those may have been special-purpose entities involved with the Roman government for tax farming.

The Romans definitely had loans, and to some extent, had banks. The Temple of Apollo sold mortgages. They had the concept of agency, in the legal sense we use today. But the best-known bank of the era (because some of their records have survived)[3], the Sulpicii, was a family business.

None of these references describe an independent insurer. That would be one who, for an agreed fee, will cover a loss, but isn't otherwise involved in the business. The Romans don't seem to have gotten that far.

[1] [http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Temin2013.pdf](http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Temin2013.pdf) [2] [https://books.google.com/books?id=pJY3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA159&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=pJY3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=societates+publicanorum&source=bl&ots=C2LnayAB8h&sig=b7VBop5u0D45qnjCrl3JAVrPQX0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKnrDXnMvLAhVE0WMKHbtCAqAQ6AEIODAF#v=onepage&q=societates%20publicanorum&f=false) [3] [http://weblaw.usc.edu/centers/clhc/archives/workshops/docume...](http://weblaw.usc.edu/centers/clhc/archives/workshops/documents/Rowe.pdf)

<comment><USER4> Rhodes had the Lex Rhodia (which included a provision granting 'general average'); a sort of group-based insurance scheme for differing ventures to compensate those among the group whose ships were lost. So the concept did indeed exist in (or at least before) Roman times.

The Romans also had life insurance, so the concept of insurance was there.

Genoa most certainly had banking houses issuing insurance and loans -- and their rivals in Venice did as well (but that was more state-oriented and derived). However, I'd agree that there doesn't seem to be much evidence towards institutional insuring in Rome.</comment></comment>


What is or will be the developer platform for IoT? - <AUTHOR> What do you think will be the dominant developer platform/programming language (if any) for all things IoT? <comment><USER2> Particle(.io) looks like a promising platform. I've only used their devices and platform for some hobby projects and one small paid-for project. I like that it takes care of most of the hard stuff for you, which would be good for people who are wanting to build IoT businesses. This may help their success.

</comment><comment><USER3> C and C++ is the dominant language for embedded devices. As of now, most developer use C/C++. Once the industry becomes a little bit mature(preprogrammed devices are available and affordable), people will most likely switch to easy languages like golang.

</comment><comment><USER4> Arduino seem to have won the hobbyist IoT</comment>


Introducing the Code Climate Platform - <AUTHOR> http://blog.codeclimate.com/blog/2015/06/19/code-climate-platform/ <comment><USER2> Really great news!

Will you open source the engines you are currently using to analyse Ruby code? You know, Brakeman, Flog and Flay?

Disclaimer: I wrote a gem similar (but which can't be compared) to Code Climate and I've always wondered how you guys highlight sections of duplicate code. My bet is that you rewrote Flay :P

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Really glad to hear that you're excited about it.

The engines are meant to replace our existing analysis, and all of the engines we are running on codeclimate.com are now Open Source. That being said, we are indeed working on Brakeman and Flog engines, which should be available soon.

As to the secret sauce behind our duplication analysis - you'll be able to see that soon! Stay tuned!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hi! Mike Bernstein from Code Climate here. I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has about this announcement!

<comment><USER3> Any plans on adding Java support? I suppose with this new platform, anyone can. But is that something you already happen to be working on?

<comment><AUTHOR> We would love to provide Java support! I personally did poke at a few tools before launch but didn't do anything final. Which Java tools would you like to see on Code Climate? Findbugs? Any others?

<comment><USER3> Findbugs is the main one. If you had support for that, I'd get my 120+ dev team moved over tomorrow :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Stay tuned :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting move and really good news! I'm glad new engines are already being added, particularly Rubocop and Bundler Audit. In the end, I'm confident this will have an important and positive impact on more developers, their skills and their codebases.

Good job :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, Kevin! We are super excited about this, and really appreciate your feedback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is really fantastic, and honestly not something I expected to see. I'm a huge fan of the business model where the tool is open source, and the paid service is simply a hosted version for those that don't want to maintain the infrastructure themselves.</comment>


The 5 most popular Linux distributions - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com/the-5-most-popular-linux-distributions-7000003183/

<comment><USER2> I am a Linux advocate and user, but this looks closer to flag than upvote. The results are simply out of whack with any number of real world data sources, from distributions own statistics to google trends.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, as the story points out, there's no great data, but DistroWatch's numbers are as close as we've got to a constant check on what distros are getting attention and which ones aren't.

<comment><USER3> I almost lost a my job over distrowatch once, was distro called lesbos (debian based) - was harmless mistake that turned into a sitiuation comedy involving a offline printer and a lady being first in the office to turn on the printer the next day. We all laughed in the end.

But it is a good source of seeing what is out there and bringing new distributions to attention in a central place and if you want a niche distribution of any flavour then it is a great place to start out. But unlike women or men you can play with more than one at once and still go back to your favourite with no love lost, so by all means play around with other flavours, VM's great for that as well at many levels.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Given that the Android kernel is based on the Linux kernel then you could say that Android should be on that list of most popular Linux distribution.

A article based on a snapshot of a site that lists Linux distributions is best served in discussion by people listing the top 5 Linux distributions and debating the merits of them. That said I'd say Android is by my definition the most popular Linux distribution out there currently based upon volume of new adopters per any recent period.

Also different distro's are more suitable for certain tasks than others and in that it would be nice to see the uptake of distrobutions used per task utilised. Some distro's may make certain applications as stndard or easily installed and be more stable for those applications as apposed to other distro's that take a bit more effort to setup the same application in a stable way but is more suitable for other tasks/applications. So in that are we realy seeing general distro's or dedicated distro's like DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) of security ones for pentesting like Backtrack. So many factors and to generalise as a top 5 like a music chart when you have so many types of music is not useful at all accept for sheep and people who don't mind overly accurate weather forcasts.

I liked Suse in the early days, Umbuntu though thats gone for me as most try to over simplyfy things and in that I'm down to rolling me own, that said my love of BSD distro's is greater and thats mostly as i'm one of those sad purests that have still not truely forgiven the creation of RPM's, but I accept it as I I have realised everybody is not me and in that everybody has there own taste of distributions and some have even found there perfect fit that has changed how they wanted it to, for those we would like to hear more as anybody can say bad things about this and that but what are the good points - that is what I want to read about from real users. Now is one of many chances you get to tell your storys.</comment>


Feds: Too few Americans 'turn to government for assistance' - <AUTHOR> http://washingtonexaminer.com/feds-too-few-americans-turn-to-government-for-assistance/article/2506052#.UDwha-xcymi

<comment><USER2> It's a monster</comment>


The Promise of the Web - <AUTHOR> http://www.alertdebugging.com/2011/09/22/the-promise-of-the-web/

<comment><USER2> I think Google's Native Client is our best chance for something like what he describes.

It provides a sandbox for executing untrusted machine code (or PNaCl for more portable LLVM bytecode), downloaded on the fly, which would enable efficient implementations of things like HTML/CSS/JS.

I look forward to the day someone gets a browser rendering engine compiled and running in NaCl.

<comment><USER3> You also need some extra content-negotiation abilities, but that shouldn't be too hard: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2131870> . I'll pull out this bit:

> Finally, the process can chain, so a particular [data/DSL] file might be > given to a display program which is a Ruby script which would in turn be > given to a generic-runtime interpreter for the appropriate version of Ruby.

So it's untrue that using NaCl or something similar means that all code (let alone all _data_ ) has to be sent to the browser already compiled down to assembler (or PNaCl bitcode or whatever). Among other things, this is one important reason why Mozilla is wrong to claim that adoption of NaCl (or whatever) would mean that HLL/scripting-language/whatever code distributed over the Web would no longer be able to benefit automatically from speed improvements to the browser's HLL runtime(s). Chained content negotiation is your friend TM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4>
        "Now imagine a world where the browser ran something
        lower level. Where Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, Opera,
        and Apple's jobs in providing a browser more resembled
        Intel's job of providing a chipset: they simply
        provided hooks for basic technologies like sound,
        camera, movies, geolocation, etc. And on top of that,
        we the developers wrote HTML, CSS, JavaScript"

here lies the problem, coffeescript was cited in the article, you yourself wrote or at least worked with obj-j, there is haml and sass, writing alternatives to javascript / html / css is not a problem, people are doing it all the time. If browsers cant provide access to higher level API's in a complete and consistent manner, how do we expect them to provide low level ones?

There are 2 main problems with the web right now that I can see being brought up repeatedly

1\. Devices / Lower level API's, new android devices have access to the camera but all things considering that is very weak, why do we not have standard solutions for clipboard access, device apis, filesystem apis, storage etc

Phonegap are doing great work for this on mobile, Mozilla have also talked about this in their mobile browser, if phonegap can do this cross platform then how in the hell can browser manufacturers not? why doesnt firefox already ship with this support on the desktop?

2\. is performance, is javascript going to ever be fast enough that we can build rich applications and games, right now the smallest page animation triggers ridiculous stuttering, is it javascripts problem or the doms? is it fixable with current solutions? blazing fast hardware accelerated webgl or canvas doesnt matter if the host language cant lookup a variable without random second long pauses.

nacl is often brought up as the solution here, but I have a hard time seeing how providing a sandbox to execute native code is gonna help me build a nice mobile app that uses web technologies (forms, links, standard tools for accessibility) and can still do a decent page transition without stuttering

This article doesnt seem to draw any conclusions about how to solve these, and the "everyone can be the owner of the web" seems almost like its apologizing for Joe Hewitts confusingly completely off base conclusions.

I dont have any answers either, but happy that the conversation is being started.

<comment><USER5> Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web. Cappuccino helped reinforce that fact by providing several more apps, some of which rival even their desktop counterpart (picsengine, which no longer accepts new subscribers, is just as capable as iPhoto. In fact my father actually like Picsengine better!)

Recently the new iCloud applications show that sexy animations are also possible on the web, if you're willing to put time into polishing it!

Performance on the web hasn't _really_ been an issue in years. The real issue is bad developers set the bar for web applications very low.

<comment><USER6> _Your second point is moot. 280slides proved high quality desktop class applications are possible on the web ..._

So ... where are they now? It was a nicer webapp, but no substitute for Keynote. Having worked with ObjJ/Cappaccino, I found it to be a frustrating attempt at _working around_ the browser, rather than an actual solution.

 _Performance on the web hasn't _really_ been an issue in years. The real issue is bad developers set the bar for web applications very low._

That's poppycock. In terme of performance, you simply can't come close to what native apps are doing. We invest enormous effort in leveraging threading and extremely low cost implementations in native code, even dropping down to NEON/etc where appropriate.

There is room for higher level languages (arguably that's what ObjC _is_ , plus ARC) but JS simply is not a replacement for what native app developers are doing. NaCL is.

<comment><USER5> 280slides was nothing more than a demo app that hasn't been touched in 3 years. Atlas was the real product of 280north. I suggest trying Cappuccino today. If you're dealing with any significant browser issues, the problem is certainly not Cappuccino.

You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed.

<comment><USER6> _You can talk benchmarks all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that for 99% of consumer facing applications you won't have any noticeable benefit from those native speed._

I'm not talking about benchmarks, I'm talking about actual application development, and the real impact the tremendous number of hours we spend as consumer app decelopers on performance has on the user experience.

I honestly can't even fathom your position, given the context of my experience maximizing application performance. All available CPU cycles are spent quite directly on performance and functionality.

Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with development beyond the web.

<comment><USER5> Exactly what kind of applications are you building that require lower level languages in order to be performant? I can't think of an application I use on a daily basis that can't be done equally well in the browser. Of course there will always be certain applications that will need lower level support, but those are a very small minority.

Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with web development.

<comment><USER6> _Exactly what kind of applications are you building that require lower level languages in order to be performant?_

All of them. You don't necessarily need C, you simply need to not waste CPU cycles on things that neither improve the user experience nor decrease development costs. You could achieve this with a higher-level language, including something like ObjC and ARC.

 _Your position implies to me a myopic inexperience with web development._

I'm very familiar with the space. Every cycle counts -- if a cycle is not spent on user experience or decreasing development costs, it's a completely wasted cycle. Browsers waste mountains of cycles.

Modern desktop and mobile software makes heavy use of SMP (threads), SIMD, specific CPU-optimized code paths (in addition to SIMD, and requires that the basic platform infrastructure be as low cost as possible. You simply could not achieve glassy-smooth scrolling and other near-instantaneous UX otherwise.

I seriously doubt that you've _ever_ built a desktop/mobile application given that you "can't think of an application I use on a daily basis that can't be done equally well in the browser.".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The article does a really good job outlining the problem:

1\. The web is losing ground to mobile apps. The New York Times should have been the perfect use case for the web, yet they are a native app on mobile platforms. If we extrapolate this rate of change, five years from now people will be self-publishing blog apps instead of sending you a URL.

2\. That's because the web lags behind native apps in features and polish of user experience.

3\. Which is because innovation on the web is gated on major browser vendors, who are slow and prone to political infighting (e.g. over video codecs).

4\. The only way for little guys to add features to the web (e.g. video) is to make browser plugins (e.g. Flash). So the crusade against Flash and plugins was a bad thing.

Then the article goes on to propose a solution that I don't think is very good, but hey, at least it's a try.

</comment><comment><USER6> While it's great to see web guys confronting the very real failings of HTML/JS as an application platform, I think the cultural inertia is practically insurmountable.

Web developers will be the least receptive audience possible to the idea that web applications can't compete as-is with native platforms. Native development requires a whole new skillset -- one that is likely beyond that of many existing web developers, and it requires abandoning years of cognitive training. It requires admitting that you can't necessarily have both a great app and search engine indexible app.

Google may succeed with NaCL, but I don't see how anyone else will. Mozilla is steadfastly opposed to progress beyond HTML/JS, and Apple has no interest in undercutting their own platforms.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> A response to Joe Hewitt's "Web Technologies need an Owner"

<comment><USER8> Suffers the same problem: long on words, very short on evidence. It's theology.

<comment><USER9> Care to elaborate? I feel that I went out of my way to provide a number of pertinent examples.

I pointed to the trend of traditional web properties moving to native apps when it came to mobile. Things like nytimes, economist, and even Facebook.

I discussed how most new social networks on mobile that have gained any traction or attention (such as FourSquare and Path) were largely a native phenomenon (even Google+ chose to have a native iPhone app).

I talked about very real examples of how Flash was important in the development of the web.

I believe that there are a lot of valid counterpoints to my argument, and I'm actually really interested in hearing and thinking about them. However, I don't think hand-waiving it away as "theology" is one of them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you look at the old OSI model and the original thoughts of the way the internet was supposed to work you see that it was supposed to be vastly more diverse than simply a browser window rendering HTML.

</comment><comment><USER11> Terrible, just terrible ideas.

This is looking only through the perspective of the content creator, ignoring the client. We're only just know trying to add some structure to the content, and we already have Microformats, RDFa and Microdata, all with incompatible formats and semantics. Now we couldn't even rely on the semantics of HTML?

He sees the web as a app distribution mechanism and the browsers as just dumb viewers. I think the web is much more than that: it's an information distribution mechanism, and that's only possible if there is standardization of protocols and formats.

<comment><USER9> I think you are focusing too much on the admittedly very unfleshed out proposal for a solution, and less on what I think matters most, which is the acceptance of what I believe to be a problem with the web.

Perhaps this is my fault for ending on that point, but do you also disagree with all the other paragraphs? I ask this honestly, because if we can just agree on that much, then I totally agree that there are a number of options that are worth discussing to make the web competitive in a way that scales again.

<comment><USER11> I think the HTML/CSS/JS part of the web is competitive in certain domains, and native apps on others. Frankly, I don't see the problem with this. Walled gardens are certainly a problem, but there's no need to throw out the baby (native apps) with the bathwater.

As for plugins, I've never seen them as benefit. Either you're a big player and then you can influence the direction of the web, or you're just some random guy and your plugin is irrelevant because no one will download it just to see some websites.

There was an SVG plugin way before browsers supported it natively, but could any web dev actually rely on it?

<comment><USER9> So you honestly never saw the benefit in having video on the web thanks to Flash? Remember that even today HTML 5 video is not fully supported.

<comment><USER11> I think Flash gave browsers the 'excuse' to postpone the implementation of a real standard solution, that we're only know seeing the first steps of.

I bet we'd have seen the video tag on browsers years ago if Flash wasn't there with a poor (GPU acceleration only last year, FFS!) but working solution.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Our Hackable E-Paper Watch for iPhone and Android - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android <comment><USER2> Texas Instruments was selling the eZ430-Chronos for $25 the other day, it sold out. <http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/EZ430-Chronos> , <http://tideals.com/>

It doesn't have bluetooth so this watch has an upper hand, but the chronos has a data transceiver for firmware upgrade, communication with health monitors and interfacing to the PC through an included RF dongle, along with xyz accelerometers , pressure for altimeter and temperature sensor. It's completely programmable with a provided IDE or msp430-gcc if you feel so inclined.

One of the models has 433MHz frequency which can, for instance, allow you to interface with many remote controlled devices (garage door).

On the link above and on youtube you can find a ton of videos with demonstrations.

I managed to scoop one for me and posted the daily deal on HN a few days ago, but it didn't gather much interest :)

<comment><USER3> The display on this watch is much higher quality, in my opinion, than the eZ430.

I've looked at the TI, and it isn't really what i want. The previous version of this watch, the inPulse, was pretty good, but battery life was a concern for me.

This, however, is a much more attractive device, solely because of the very sexy display. The costs aren't in the same ballpark, but neither is the functionality.

I want it, in a way that I'd never want to actually use a Chronos.

I've met some of the inPulse guys in Waterloo, and interviewed for an internship in the past, that I didn't do. I have faith in their ability to execute a pretty great product.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> We've made a lot of improvements over our first version. Added iPhone support (finally) and a framework that allows multiple apps and watchfaces to run simultaneously.

<comment><USER4> Does it work natively with iOS, or does it require hacks like jailbreaking?

I bought one of the other programmable watches (forget the company name, I think it's a YC company?) that initially claimed iOS support, but the caveat was you had to jailbreak your phone and install some random stuff. Wasn't really feasible for my application.

<comment><AUTHOR> Pebble works natively with iOS 5. We are that YC company!

<comment><USER4> Thanks, but I was thinking of InPulse.

I bought like literally the first one (still have it somewhere if anybody wants it).

<comment><USER5> Did you watch the video? This is inPulse (see 0:23)

Also, for skimmers, it's under PROJECT BY:

> Eric and his team have been designing smartwatches for 3 years. Their first > product was the inPulse smartwatch for Blackberry (www.getinpulse.com). > inPulse has been covered by Engadget, The Verge, Gizmodo, NYTimes and more.

<comment><USER4> No, I didn't watch the video until your comment.

I prefer to skim a page to get the relevant info, most video demos go way too slow for my preference and waste a lot of time on bits I'm not directly interested in.

If this is from the inPulse group I would have honestly expected that to be more prevalent on the page instead of a casual mention in the video.

This was presented, IMO, as if the "Pebble" was an all new thing... No mention of inPulse, Kickstarter campaign usually implies "new stuff", etc.

<comment><USER6> Maybe they added it after you skimmed the kickstarter page, but they mention InPulse in text.

"Eric and his team have been designing smartwatches for 3 years. Their first product was the inPulse smartwatch for Blackberry (www.getinpulse.com). inPulse has been covered by Engadget, The Verge, Gizmodo, NYTimes and more."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Won't the epaper pixels wear out after a finite number of transitions? After all, a year has millions of seconds to display...

<comment><USER8> No, you're thinking about ssd drives. The issue with e-ink is that pixel refreshes use power, so eink devices are optimized to try to minimize the number of refreshes used. For example some of the newer kindles try to do a screen full refresh every 6 pages so that the battery life is longer.

There is no wear for eink, same as for lcds

<comment><USER7> If the epaper display involves white and black pigments travelling physically through an oil droplet, then I doubt that the lifetime of a pixel is infinite.

Can't find lifetime specs on eink.com, though, only a claim that 90% of the displays will live 10y at typical usage, whatever that means (one page-flip per minute?).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't have an iphone or android and don't really plan on it. Obviously I can talk to it via bluetooth with my laptop or whatever, but does this thing need to be in constant proximity to a device; ie is it basically just a dumb terminal?

<comment><USER10> According to their blog, it runs C programs (written with an SDK they'll release) on a built-in ARM Cortex-M3, so it seems to be more than a dumb terminal: <http://www.getpebble.com/blog/2012/04/10/pebble-sdk/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> What is the process like for using it on iPhone? Do you need to always be running a companion app in the foreground? Have you considered adding support for Google Voice, if you can't access native text messages?

<comment><USER12> I want to know this also.

<comment><AUTHOR> Our companion app runs in the background on iPhone (thanks to a new exemption for Bluetooth accessories in iOS 5). We will try to get Google Voice SMS messages working on iOS.

<comment><USER13> I was under the impression that iOS apps can only talk directly to Bluetooth Low Energy devices, not Bluetooth 2.1. Your Kickstarter page only mentions Bluetooth 2.1 support. What am I missing?

<comment><USER14> I would really like to know the answer to this, as well.

<comment><USER15> Scroll down to UIBackgroundModes:

[http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/genera...](http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/general/Reference/InfoPlistKeyReference/Articles/iPhoneOSKeys.html)

<comment><USER13> Are you referring to bluetooth-central? That's for the CoreBluetooth framework, which in turn is only for Bluetooth Low Energy:

[http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/Miscel...](http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#DOCUMENTATION/Miscellaneous/Conceptual/iPhoneOSTechOverview/CoreOSLayer/CoreOSLayer.html)

<comment><USER15> No, I'm referring to "external-accessory". This works with both dock connector and Bluetooth iAP accessories. You're right that the other one is only for BT LE (4.0). It's understandable that many people are confused about the CoreBluetooth vs MFi Bluetooth.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Does it work properly with Android yet? I bought the inPulse, but it didn't actually work with my Android. The website said it would only work with Cyanogen Mod, which is stupid to begin with, but even running Cyanogen Mod it never actually recognized the watch.

Unfortunately it was a gift out of the return period, so I couldn't get a refund.

</comment><comment><USER17> I love the technology but aesthetically the unit itself looks pretty horrible to my eyes. Watches are one of the few accessories men can wear and it always saddens me that these types of wearable electronics are always so ugly.

<comment><USER18> I don't think it's so bad. Of course I'm an "Apple snob," so geometric minimalism appeals to me.

What watch do you find attractive?

<comment><USER19> Ipod nano with rubber band looks better than this product, unfortunately. The bezel is too wide, and it shold also be squareish (like the Ipod).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I think this is a really exciting space and have been wanting a connected watch for some time.

Here are some other options:

MotoACTV: <https://motoactv.com>

IM Watch: <http://www.imwatch.it/>

Meta Watch: <http://www.metawatch.org>

WIMM One: <http://www.wimm.com/>

Are there others? (iPod Nano watches not included since they don't connect to anything)

<comment><USER21> SonyEricsson LiveView: [http://www.sonymobile.com/global- en/products/accessories/liv...](http://www.sonymobile.com/global- en/products/accessories/liveview/)

The watch is just a screen + radio, apps are entirely contained on the phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> What is e—paper and how does it compare to e-ink? How does it perform in direct sunlight?

<comment><USER10> AFAIK e-paper is essentially a term that encompasses of paper-like displays, including e-ink. This probably uses the latter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Awesome product! Great to see another startup using Kickstarter to get going.

I started mine two days ago, I'm trying to raise the money to pay Twilio fees for giving my intelligent journal to 10,000 people in developing countries. Can't wait to see the success you guys have, Kickstarter is a great platform!

That being said, I think a Kickstarter is much more appropriate for physical products than it is software products. People like being able to get physical things, and being a part of the process.

</comment><comment><USER24> This looks really cool but I'm so very confused about it being a kickstarter. Is this basically operating as a store front or are you still in the fund raising stage?

<comment><USER25> If you go down on the kick starter page, they say that they have a prototype, and the funding is for: "- Production tooling \- Large component order \- Global Bluetooth certification"

so it looks like the funding is to take it from a working prototype to the finished product.

<comment><USER24> I guess I'm trying to figure out if they're shipping them immediately or not. It almost sounded like they were. I'll skim over the page some more.

EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Reading...

<comment><USER26> The Kickstarter page says estimated delivery September 2012

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Well, from the video it looks pretty good. But is e-paper the best display technology to use here? Doesn't it get ghosting? What about PixelQi?

<comment><USER28> It does not appear to be e-ink, and they do not claim to be e-ink... The kickstarter mentions a backlight, which makes me think it is not e-ink.

I can't say for sure, but the display appears to be this one: <http://www.sharpmemorylcd.com/1-26-inch-memory-lcd.html> or something like it.

It's an always on display with ultra low power consumption for static displays, so I think that is what they basis of the e-paper name. Seems a little dubious to me, but the watch still is very neat.

<comment><USER29> The transitions (such as sliding animations) seem too fast to be e-ink as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Isn't this filmed in Y Combinator's office? What's the connection with YC?

<comment><USER31> Why'd you choose to raise money via Kickstarter instead of going the traditional funding route? I have my theories, but I'd love to hear what specific benefits you have using this model.

<comment><USER32> (I am not an expert, this is just what I think) The problem is: you need tens of thousands of dollars for a single manufacturing run. You can either raise capital by selling equity (traditional investment), or raise capital by preselling your device using Kickstarter. (Obviously there are more options).

This is basically the best of both worlds approach. The getting your cake and get to eat it too: you get the capital AND keep all of your equity, with a healthy dose of knowing the demand of your product before beginning your first run.

<comment><USER33> This is a pretty important observation. In one sense, it's no surprise that YC backed companies are at the front of the wave experimenting here - I suspect the smart VC people are fully aware of the paradigm shift that Kickstarter is making possible. I'd be astounded if pg doesn't already have strong ideas about how he and YC can bring value (and hence earn a cut of the profits) to smart startups who've got a non traditional-equity-sharing option to raise funds.

There are clearly some people attracting angel or a-round sized capital via Kickstarter without giving up _any_ equity or control. This, the ZPM espresso machine guys, Wasteland2 - surely at least some VCs and angels are viewing those as "lost opportunities"?

I wonder if we'll start seeing "zero cash, very small equity" deals from firms like YC, for people using _other_ means of fund raising?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I already have an inPulse but this is so cool I just backed Pebble on Kickstarter too. I really hope the battery life is as good as you are claiming, because the 20ish hour bat life on my inPulse is currently the biggest pain point. Great work guys, I'm glad to see you progressing so quickly.

Any Kickstarter bonuses for the early inPulse adopters?

<comment><USER35> How do you like the inPulse watch?

<comment><USER34> I like it a lot. I thought I would wear it more when I was out and about but due to the short battery life my primary use of the inPulse is at home. Usually when my phone is plugged in and charging in the other room. My inPulse allows me to see anything important on my phone without having my phone in my pocket.

I think the reduced profile of the Pebble along with the increased battery life will be an absolute game changer. I hope to wear my pebble all the time.

<comment><USER35> Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but thanks for the review! I also have the same problem where I'd leave my phone on a desk at home and won't notice if I get any messages when I'm in the other room, so this makes the Pebble more tempting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Wish this would have come out about 6 months ago. Spent about $350 on the Motorola MotoActiv. It's a great GPS fitness device with bluetooth, and right now is definitely more functional that this watch, but it's still fairly clunky. The fact that it isn't open source means that you have to rely solely on updates from Motorola themselves. The bike computer function is lacking and the bluetooth linking isn't great, especially when you're already using a heart monitor. Although obvious downside is having to carry your phone with you when working out but that's already something my wife does anyway. It will depends on how robust the apps become, but this could be a major win for these guys.

</comment><comment><USER37> Brilliant. I've been looking for something with the functionality to replace my old SPOT watch, and it looks like this is finally the ticket.

Also looks like there's a "hacker" package available too which includes a prototype and early SDK access.

</comment><comment><USER38> Congrats to Eric and team! This looks great! Epaper is a huge plus for outdoor use.

<comment><USER39> I don't think it's real e-paper, it looks to be a Sharp Memory LCD (<http://www.sharpmemorylcd.com/1-26-inch-memory-lcd.html> \-- the specs are identical). In fairness, Sharp are positioning those LCDs as a kind of e-paper work-alike, and they do work very well. The Nike+ watch for example uses that exact screen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Very cool! I've long since wanted to do this with an iPod nano and wristwatch accessory..... Except no connectivity.

My wishes for a product like this:

1) built in apps should be as polished and optimized and biotin apps so its truly ready to go for the majority.

2) app functionality I've long wanted:

\- I hope it comes standard with caller id app \- weather feed \- email notification as id like

Basically a subset of my smartphone features on my wrist.

Customizability wise, id love to be able to have an interface to build a dashboard.maybe someone will create a Web app that I can create my own data feeds and publish into an app on my watch.

Good luck, look forward to seeing it when it comes out!

</comment><comment><USER41> looks awesome, and just in time for me to replace my broken analog watch. Congrats!

<comment><USER11> Note that it says they ship in September.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Looks like a cool little product, I would buy one if I wore watches. My only suggestion would be to stop designing your dial as if you had a round face to work with, your display is square so you should design accordingly. All of the analog versions you show are made for a round dial and they end up looking cramped and awkward.

</comment><comment><USER43> I was expecting to see BT4/LE in use. Any reason to stick to the more power- hungry 2.1?

</comment><comment><USER44> Anybody tried one of these? the imWatch? <http://www.imwatch.it/ie-en/>

I'm curious to hear what they are like...

disclaimer: I too succumbed to the Pebble deal on Kickstarter... Moooaaar gadgets!!

</comment><comment><USER45> I didn't have to think twice about backing this project. I can't wait to be able to view some statistics (like daily page views) from a website on my wrist. This will help satisfy my information addiction!

</comment><comment><USER46> What about this one? [http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/sonys-149-smartwatch- finall...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/12/sonys-149-smartwatch-finally- lands-in-the-u-s/)

</comment><comment><USER47> So I'm wondering, does it support running as a companion for a BT enabled Laptop or desktop with BT? That would be great but I didn't see mention of regular linux/windows/mac support.

</comment><comment><USER48> The SDK sounds very promising, ripe for hacking. I guess you could do some bluetooth triangulation (plus accelerometer fine-tuning) to "localize" it for different rooms of your house.

</comment><comment><USER49> What are the dimensions? Can you add a picture on a female wrist?

<comment><USER50> >Can you add a picture on a female wrist?

01:36 in the video.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I would gladly pay the Hacker Special price if we could get a prototype and SDK this month or early May. Any chance of this happening instead of having to wait until August?

</comment><comment><USER52> Basis is $199 and comes (will come) and adds (will add) a lot of value. $99+ is a little too pricey, I think. Those are two are different products, of course, but still.

</comment><comment><USER53> I personally thought kickstarter wasn't funding commercial ventures? This is a commercial venture, is it not?

Can someone please enlighten me?

<comment><USER54> I don't think that's the case. A friend of mine raised money via Kickstarter for his company. See [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ucffool/gaming-dice- in-c...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ucffool/gaming-dice-in-chocolate- and-sugar)

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Looks awesome, Eric! Can't wait to hack on one. If only it ran on a dcpu-16, you'd have a super marketing combo :)

</comment><comment><USER56> This is the project that convinced me to enroll in Systems Design Engineering at University of Waterloo!

</comment><comment><USER57> Do you need to be on MFI to access the bluetooth on iOS? If so what's the process of getting on?

<comment><USER15> You do if you want to transfer custom data. Some controllers get away with using the keyboard Bluetooth profile. You apply to MFi here: <https://developer.apple.com/programs/mfi/>

But pretty much everything else is under NDA, unfortunately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> This caught my eye. I've been looking forward to mybasis and wish these things would merge.

</comment><comment><USER59> Is there any kind of side-lighting or other way to see the display in the dark?

</comment><comment><USER60> Out of curiosity, any reason for not using Bluetooth 4.0?

</comment><comment><USER61> After seeing so many alternatives, I was really dying to see an e-paper incarnation. This would be awesome and it would give me a reason to get back into embedded C-types.

I would loooove to see a watch like this integrate NFC as well that could be used in applications. Think PKI in NFC on your wrist. Want to get in your office, dorm room, car? Just hold your watch up to the handle and it unlocks.

</comment><comment><USER62> Get in before the i-watch and the patent nightmares

</comment><comment><USER63> Looks _really neat_ , but I won't buy it, because:

* It requires regular charging -- at least once a week, according to the kickstart page. Who wants more cables dangling from the desk or night table? Who wants to keep remembering to charge one more device?

* Apps for this watch are necessarily inferior to those already available for smartphones. (Indeed, the whole point of modern smartphones is that they 'appify' specialized devices like this watch.) Who wants to carry an extra device?

Instead of simplifying my life, this watch would make it more complex!

<comment><USER64> You won't buy it because it requires charging and because it displays things from your smartphone?

I'm... not really sure what to say.

<comment><USER65> When people are bored at work they re-engage their minds by posting the most negative comment they can think of.

A lot of people that read HN are bored at work.

<comment><USER66> Sorry but the OP stated valid points, which I fully agree with, yet did not take time to post because they were not very constructive and would not add to the discussion. I guess there are more than 2 of us.

The charging part is the #1 problem for me. I would buy a device which could be extracted from the wristband (ala ipod mini) and would not require cables (ie with a charging mat). I would even pay a premium for a device which would not have me remove it from my wrist for charging (don't know how it can be done, but it should!)

Having to care about battery life is just adding complexity for minor advantages compared to a standard dumb watch, therefore I'm not buying it, but please do not discard such arguments just because of some "negativity at work" theory.

<comment><USER65> I guess this doesn't faze me since I use a Garmin GPS watch for running, and it obviously needs to be charged regularly.

Complex electronic devices need energy, most cheaply obtained from your wall. Radios specifically use a lot of energy, making regular watch batteries a poor value proposition.

I guess I've accepted that Kickstarter projects aren't going to change the fundamental laws of physics or invent something like a battery-size nuclear reactor for their project, so I don't get upset when an electronic gadget needs to be powered. That's all.

<comment><USER66> I also purchased a Garmin forerunner - now catching dust.

Without changing the law of physics, an eink device whose main function is to display time should be designed to work between 6 to 12 months on a single charge or battery (CR2025 and the likes) to get my money.

If it can't do that and have a fancy CPU and a fancy radio, remove the radio, use an AVR, whatever it takes.

Alternatively, an inductive charging mat were you can lay your wrist while typing or a device that can be removed from the wristband (like an ipod mini) doesn't seem impossible with todays tech.

<comment><USER33> Why would anyone get particularly excited about a 6-12 month per charge e-ink watch with no "fancy CPU and fancy radio"?

That's just a watch. The e-ink adds no real value if you can't do interesting things with it. If this were "just" an e-ink display mimicking a mechanical watch, I'd personally rather an actual mechanical watch.

I'm hoping that much like how I don't for a second resent having to charge my smartphone every night in return for all the "extra stuff" it does over my perhaps once a week recharge requirements from my last non-smart phone, that this thing will do "new stuff" that makes it worth charging every night, and also happen to be a perfectly functional watch as well. (Much like my phone isn't so much a "phone" these days, its a "pocket web browser / email client / twitter client / gps mapper / casual game device" which also happens to make phone calls.)

<comment><USER66> Now that the smartphones are doing the smart things other devices will either be absorbed (palmpilot, mp3 player...) or will be slowly killed.

IMHO, a smart watch can have a place, if only as a fashion accessory, as long as it doesn't add too much burden to the daily routine.

Look at how many people are still wearing watches around you and ask them why they do that when they have a smartphone - [and that's just without the charging burden]. You may be surprised: around me it either to look good or to still have time when the smartphone has been fully discharged.

For Saint-Exupery, perfection is not reached when every feature has been added but when any unnecessary feature has been removed.

IMHO daily charging and advanced features should both be removed or made as easy as possible for a true smartwatch success.

Then I would get very excited at a eink watch similar to the seiko SGDA003 but selling at a fraction of the price - especially if it was made of a good quality titanium alloy.

Added value is in the eyes of the purchaser : IIRC the Seiko sells for $1000 and doesn't do anything fancy : they just looks great (the display is gorgeous) and are rumored to be tough to damage.

Apparently such basic features justify enough value for the pricetag. Removing the radio and the power-hungry cpu, then aiming at a $200 pricetag with a device looking as good as the seiko should be possible - and I'd buy one!

But it seems like the company went into another direction, aiming at geeks who wants many additional toy functions (untested market) compared to the actual buyers of eink watches (tested market) who want something lees expansive, better looking and maybe also more open.

I'd have gone to the market were a dump watch selling at 1000k is flying of the shelves. [http://www.seiko.fr/la_collection/collection_plus_info.php?c...](http://www.seiko.fr/la_collection/collection_plus_info.php?c=master- series&t=c&p=2&refMontre=SDGA003)

You charge your phone and your bluetooth handsfree. But would you also charge your watch? And your glasses? And other gizmos?

I think many people will be quickly fed up and just stil to charging the device that helps them the most (here: the smartphone) and replace the others by dumber and power-efficient devices.

<comment><USER43> > For Saint-Exupery, perfection is not reached when every feature has been > added but when any unnecessary feature has been removed.

You mean Jonathan Ive. Sorry, Albert Einstein. Wait, was that Graham Bell? Or Leonardo da Vinci? Maybe Mies Van Der Rohe? Damn.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How much should a startup spend? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.bugherd.com/how-much-should-a-startup-spend/

<comment><USER2> The connection has timed out

              The server at blog.bugherd.com is taking too long to respond.

      The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few
        moments.
      If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
        connection.
      If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
        that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

</comment><comment><USER3> For the meantime:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://blog.bugherd.com/how- much-should-a-startup-spend/&strip=1)

The .xls still seems unavailable, tho

</comment><comment><USER2> From Google:

How much should a startup spend? | BugHerd blog.bugherd.com/how-much-should-a- startup-spend/ 3 hours ago – We've created a spreadsheet to help you work out how much your startup should spend each month to get the most out of your capital.

</comment><comment><USER4> "Error establishing a database connection" for the past ~20+ mins

</comment><comment><USER5> You should probably make this into a webapp if you want to get the HN crowd interested in it.

<comment><USER6> With a spreadsheet the only thing I have to do is download it. It is that simple. No registration needed, which is one of the main complaints I see here in HN. I really like the simplicity of just let me download the thing. I haven't used it yet, though...</comment></comment>


JSCity – An implementation of the Code City metaphor for visualizing source code - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/aserg-ufmg/JSCity/wiki/JSCITY <comment><USER2> Apart from being very fun to play around with, is there a concrete problem this project solves? Or is it just "because we can" kind of thing?

EDIT: after playing with "react" a bit, it seems that "third_party" brings the most to the source, which is something to think about (bloat in our projects is often caused by third parties)

<comment><USER3> If you have to learn a new or have to monitor the health of a large code base, then visualizations are really helpful. For .NET there is for example NDepend [1] which also offers treemapping [2] but in the more traditional 2D version which is probably quite a bit more useful in practice than the 3D version shown here. But still it is more or less the same thing.

[1] [http://www.ndepend.com/screenshots](http://www.ndepend.com/screenshots)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treemapping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treemapping)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Not sure why you posted a link to a blank wiki page. This seems like a better starting point: [https://github.com/aserg-ufmg/JSCity/wiki/JSCity:-Code- City-...](https://github.com/aserg-ufmg/JSCity/wiki/JSCity:-Code-City- for-\(and-by\)-JavaScript)

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, the link is fixed now (both links are working).

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Fascinating. I wonder how easy it is to understand cohesion and coupling just by looking at these visualisations.

<comment><USER6> I'm now imagining cars and helicopters flying between buildings to represent data flow... that would be crazy awesome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Feature request: generate city-construction videos to visualize the evolution of source code.

</comment><comment><USER8> 2D alternatives:

[http://hughsk.io/disc/](http://hughsk.io/disc/) (browserify)

[https://chrisbateman.github.io/webpack- visualizer/](https://chrisbateman.github.io/webpack-visualizer/) (webpack)

Though these are visualizing the size of the files not the LOC.

</comment><comment><USER9> Reminds me of the charts that WinDirStat [0] builds to show disk usage. I wonder if you could use something like leaflet.js [1] to create a zoomable, 2D variant of the "code city"

0: [https://windirstat.net/](https://windirstat.net/)

1: [http://leafletjs.com/](http://leafletjs.com/)

</comment><comment><USER10> That's quite a funny project. I setup this thing and just draw a code viz for [https://github.com/Unitech/PM2](https://github.com/Unitech/PM2), that looks pretty cool: [http://i.imgur.com/gvm0fxs.png](http://i.imgur.com/gvm0fxs.png)

</comment><comment><USER11> Would like to know more about why they chose to visualize it in this way. Either way, looks like it will at least be fun to play around with.</comment>