ScaNN: Efficient Vector Similarity Search - <AUTHOR> https://ai.googleblog.com/2020/07/announcing-scann-efficient-vector.html <comment><USER2> A practical tip: try hard not to need this sort of thing, and you'd be surprised how often you can avoid it.

Before you start looking at approximate nearest neighbors, ask yourself the following:

1\. Do I know all of the vectors ahead of time? (i.e. query vectors are not constructed at runtime, it's a fixed inventory of items being embedded)

2\. Do I need to return an unlimited number of neighbors per query? (i.e. do you ever need more than like, a few thousand neighbors)

If the answer to both of these is "no", then you should probably just precompute the neighbors exactly on one or more GPUs. It's feasible for millions of terms, and may actually be faster than the index-building steps for many ANN algorithms. Example code: [https://github.com/explosion/sense2vec/blob/master/scripts/0...](https://github.com/explosion/sense2vec/blob/master/scripts/06_precompute_cache.py)

A cache of k neighbors for vectors of dimension d will be k/d the size of the original vector data, because one integer and one float both occupy 32-bits of data. So if your vectors are 300 dimensions, you can save 150 neighbors and serve the results with half the space of the original data. The responses are then instant and exact, and you'll never have problems with load management because the runtime is so cheap. Example demo: [https://explosion.ai/demos/sense2vec](https://explosion.ai/demos/sense2vec)

Again, this doesn't work for queries you have to construct on the fly, for instance it won't work if you need to construct a vector that incorporates information from the user's session or something. It only works if the process of constructing the vectors is already a batch job to e.g. embed the user's history. It also won't work well if you have to page through arbitrary amounts of history, as storing more than a few thousand neighbors per query would get impractical. Generally the similarity accuracy degrades to uselessness long before that point though (especially if you're using an approximation technique).

</comment><comment><USER3> How is this similar / different to Johnson-Lindenstrauss? ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%E2%80%93Lindenstrauss_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%E2%80%93Lindenstrauss_lemma))

The principle seems very similar: find a simpler representation that preserves distance.

<comment><USER4> The JL lemma is an essentially an error bound, which reassures us that dimensionality reduction (compress big vectors —> small vectors) is not a lost cause. More specifically, it says that even if you perform a random projection—the most naive DR method—to compress a high-dimensional data matrix to a low-dimensional one (i.e. same number of rows, but many fewer columns), it will only the distort the pairwise Euclidean distances between points (row vectors of the data matrix) by _$this_much_.

Example: if you crudely crunch MNIST from a [60000 x 784] matrix down to [60000 x 15] matrix (15 is arbitrary here—anything smaller than the original 784 works) using random projection, the JL lemma tells you how badly you mangled the similarity structure of your dataset in the worst case scenario. It turns out it's not so bad, so we can use DR to compress our data matrix and then confidently do useful things with the vectors it contains (like search for similar ones).

ScaNN is an _approximate nearest neighbor (ANN) search_ algorithm. There is an entire zoo of them, but they all have the same goal: given a query vector _q_ and a data matrix _X_ (where _q_ has the same number of elements as a row vector in _X_ ), find the _k_ vectors in _X_ that are "most similar" to _q_ , without exhaustively checking all the possible matches. Most similar could be any similarity or distance measure, but in this case it's the simple inner product.

To do this more quickly, the algorithm uses a type of vector quantization (i.e. sort the high-D vectors into buckets), which is similar to k-means. K-means can also be construed as a dimensionality reduction technique, you are just reducing to a single dimension. That way you're only looking in buckets where there's hope of finding close matches.

This works great in real life with socks—if you're trying to find a match for a stray black dress sock, then 1) make sure you presort your socks so that they are approximately binned by similarity and 2) look in the bin that contains socks most similar to your "query sock" (i.e. don't look in the colorful athletic sock or plain white dad-sock bins). I'm not actually kidding, if you have a billion unmatched socks in a box, try this and you'll see.

Anyways...as for this particular algorithm, someone else may be able to explain the details better. But my coarse understanding is that the loss function (which measures how good the bucketing is—how purely you pre-binned your socks) was defined in such a way that accounts for the density of the region in question—a neighbor in NYC means something different than a neighbor in Wyoming, so you need more granular buckets for denser regions. However, I thought this was essentially how almost every ANN algorithm worked, so how this one blows all the others out of the water (faster for a given recall value) is mystifying to me.

[PS—someone please correct me if any aspect of my loosey goosey explanation is inaccurate]

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> In case anyone else was confused why they didn't just project onto q first if they want to have <q,x'> as close as possible to the original <q,x>. Apparently q is a random query vector and their research shows how to define an alternative quantization loss where you weigh quantization loss more heavily when |<q,x>| is high [1].

It's worth noting that without this additional weighting you end up with the euclidean distance under the assumption that q is distributed symmetrically.

[1]: [https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.10396](https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.10396)

</comment><comment><USER6> I'll definitely have to try this out, and from the benchmarks the results look impressive. In the documentation I noticed there was a dependency on tensorflow. I get why it's needed, but it would have been nice to figure a way without it. As an annoy user, it's very easy to use, from install to the API. Looking forward to the continued discoveries in approximate nearest neighbor tech.

</comment><comment><USER7> An interesting result in an area where there are many obvious things you think would help but don't.

<comment><USER8> Unrelated, but I feel strangely sad reading this, agreeing, then going...

Wait, that's a very arbitrary and general statement. Is this a bot?

(I know (hope, given I've read your comments before... :) you're not, but still, a sign of the times I guess...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is definitely great foundational work, but if you click through to [http://ann-benchmarks.com/](http://ann-benchmarks.com/), you can see that they show dominant performance on the glove-100 benchmark, but decidedly middling performance on the other benchmarks for which they provide results (glove-25 and lastfm-64). I don't see this doing anything to unseat HNSW as my go-to algorithm for its strong performance across a wide variety of benchmarks.

</comment><comment><USER10> Personally I'm waiting for this to get added to [http://ann- benchmarks.com/](http://ann-benchmarks.com/) to see how it measures up across datasets.

Edit: Looks like it's already there for some datasets. Interestingly it is primarily strong for the glove-100 dataset. I wonder if there are parts of scann that (accidentally) exploit structure specific to word vectors.

<comment><USER4> Look again, it's in there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is great. This is already better that FLANN (by facebook), Annoy (by spotify). [https://github.com/erikbern/ann- benchmarks#evaluated](https://github.com/erikbern/ann-benchmarks#evaluated)

Still, We are very far away from creating reverse video search engine. Also, Most of these techniques are in-memory not on disk.

I am really interested in making reverse video search engine.

<comment><USER12> How would a reverse video search engine work? You give it a clip and it shows you which longer clips it is in?

<comment><USER11> Yes, Exactly same as you described.

<comment><USER4> Could you take (embeddings of) frames from your query video and measure the pairwise similarity to frames from the reference videos, then rank by some summary function of that list of similarity scores?

What are the bottlenecks besides performance?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is really powerful, there are many profitable AI startups that could be built using this technology. I am almost mad that its on the HN front page

<comment><USER14> Like what? Doesnt seem fundamentally different to Annoy which has existed for a while now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I thought that k-D trees were good for that problem. With some backtracking in the tree and constructing cutting planes, can get actual nearest neighbor search.

<comment><USER16> kd-trees don't work well for high-dimensional vectors, so when working with embeddings, you typically have to use something else.

<comment><USER17> This hasn't been true for multiple decades at this point. SIFT was originally predicated on best bin first searching through kd-trees to find aproximate nearest neighbors for vectors with over 4000 dimensions.

If you prioritize the bins you search by distance, you are are more likely to find closer points sooner. If you are finding a set number of closest points, then you will have a minimum distance to be included in the point set sooner. If that minimum distance is shorter than the distance to a bin, you can skip it.

<comment><USER10> If you have heuristics fast enough to make kd-trees competitive, it would be interesting to have them added to [http://ann-benchmarks.com/](http://ann- benchmarks.com/)

<comment><USER17> What do you mean by "heuristics"? What I described was how flann works.

It is not only on those benchmarks but is one of the reasons they exist in the first place, since it instigated a lot of the research into approximate nearest neighbors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> previously discussed here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23737338](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23737338)</comment>


The Rise of Science Fiction from Pulp Mags to Cyberpunk - <AUTHOR> https://electricliterature.com/the-rise-of-science-fiction-from-pulp-mags-to-cyberpunk-e00f6efdcab0#.o3ulbrklh <comment><USER2> This is a very long ad for a book, "The Big Book of Science Fiction".</comment>


Using htop to generate a live website background - <AUTHOR> http://drunken-security.at/archives/41 <comment><USER2> Hi, htop author here: this brought a smile to my face! Wondering if I should do the same in htop's own website. Would be fun to follow the activity spike when the new major release comes later this year! Major kudos to the author for the idea!

<comment><USER3> htop is one of my favorite UNIX tools in existence!

Check out htop running my laptop while I had an "ssh-multi" tmux session opened up on an Apache Spark cluster, doing computation 32 cores x 25 nodes = 800 cluster cores! It's so fun to watch all of those cores light up green while doing a big batch job.

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/amontalenti/21512617686/in/dat...](https://www.flickr.com/photos/amontalenti/21512617686/in/dateposted/)

We are big fans of htop at Parse.ly. We install it on every one of our nodes.

<comment><USER2> Whoa, amazing picture! Thanks for sharing!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> You can make it more efficient by capturing the images to a buffer and rendering a low FPS h264 stream, serving it as HLS fragments and displaying it with hls.js ( [https://github.com/dailymotion/hls.js](https://github.com/dailymotion/hls.js) ) as a background element. There is a lot of inter frame compression benefits to be had from this sort of content + it will look more nice with a constant stream of frames. With a low FPS, the CPU usage should be low enough to not be noticeable and also, you can serve a static JPEG as a "preview" when loading the stream in the background for having a background picture on load.

<comment><USER5> we lol'd... Its a good idea. The inter frame compression is the point which would be nice to have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Neat thanks!

You can generate HTML (and from that png or whatever) with [http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ansi2html.sh](http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ansi2html.sh) like

        $ COLUMNS=80 timeout 1 htop > t.ansi
        $ ansi2html.sh --bg=dark < t.ansi > t.html

I've requested a -b, --batch option for htop, to simplify this mode of operation. [https://github.com/hishamhm/htop/issues/282](https://github.com/hishamhm/htop/issues/282) Then you could just:

        $ COLUMNS=80 htop -b | ansi2html.sh ...

</comment><comment><USER7> Direct link to the generated background image: [http://126.96.36.199/background/background.png](http://184.108.40.206/background/background.png)

<comment><USER8> Without the hardcoded IP:

[http://drunken-security.at/background/background.png](http://drunken- security.at/background/background.png)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I studied the line read _ _ sid < <(2>&1 strace -esetsid setsid sh -c "exec $PROGRAM <> /dev/tty2 >&0 2>&1 ")

<( is an example of process substitution, in case anyone is interested. Basically it feeds the stdout of the subshell into the stdin of the read (previous) command. Here is a detailed explanation: [http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/abs-guide.html#PROCESS- SUB](http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/abs-guide.html#PROCESS-SUB)

<comment><USER5> thank you :)

<comment><USER10> Is there any good reason not to use an ordinary pipe there? In zsh, strace blah |& read sid

<comment><USER9> Well they could use an ordinary pipe, but they would have to group the later expression in parantheses. In bash the | creates a fork, so if you try: echo "sdfsdf" | read sid && echo $sid you get a blank line, but if you try: echo "sdfsdf" | (read sid && echo $sid) you get "sdfsdf" |& is an abbreviation for >2&1 | . In zsh the grouping isn't needed, the expression works out of the box.

For more information on the subject: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13763942/bash-why- piping-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13763942/bash-why-piping-input- to-read-only-works-when-fed-into-while-read-const)

<comment><USER10> Hmm... looks like zsh runs the last element of the pipeline, if a builtin, in the current process. I use the pipe-to-read trick all the time in zsh without even thinking about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wrote a tiny program that captures the content of a Linux virtual console and prints it to stdout.[1] I forgot why I wrote it, but the source code shows how to access foreground color, background color and the font weight.[2] You could hack it to print everything in a format that's easily parsable, write it to a file every second and do the rendering on the client side with JavaScript.

[1] [https://github.com/slyrz/peep/](https://github.com/slyrz/peep/)

[2] [https://github.com/slyrz/peep/blob/master/peep.c#L165](https://github.com/slyrz/peep/blob/master/peep.c#L165)

</comment><comment><USER12> I would be worried about one of the processes having a database password or something like that as a parameter...

<comment><USER13> mysql at least replaces -ppassword for -px

<comment><USER14> Even though some software does replace the password, it would be better not to use passwords like that at all anyway. Just to be sure.

<comment><USER5> Good point. I think we should be caeful what we do, while administrating the server.

Maybe we could build some automatism which stops the screenshot service while an ssh session is established.

<comment><USER15> Either that, or you just exclude all processes forked by bash/ssh :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Would be more interesting if the background is live, like updating itself every second or half a second.

<comment><AUTHOR> will be live in some minutes

<comment><AUTHOR> done. thanks for the recommendation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Well it's ansi text, so why not just copy the text directly to a DIV, convert the ansi to html (or css) and update it via javascript polling ?

<comment><AUTHOR> You would have to parse the VT-100 escape codes to generate the correct html + css (e.g. colors and cursor relocation escape sequences). It is not that straight forward, but on the other hand there are libraries for that.

<comment><USER17> [http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ansi2html.sh](http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ansi2html.sh)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Well that was kind of fun. Ran apache bench on it just to see the two cores go to 100% :)

<comment><USER5> oh you... ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's text. Would have used asciinema as a base and streamed that in.

</comment><comment><USER20> Great idea! But wouldn't it be best to restrain the output of htop to a few interesting processes that are running without root privileges. It seems to me that it could be possible to bubble up processes that can leak information, especially at startup and when you put the server under load externally...

</comment><comment><USER21> What are the security implications?

<comment><USER22> security through obscurity is no security. so, if the server is unsecure you can bet this won't be the reason for any incident.

<comment><USER5> good point, thank you. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I wonder how [https://github.com/ansilove/AnsiLove-C](https://github.com/ansilove/AnsiLove-C) would fare for generating the PNG compared to the current solution.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've used this to show live htop on a web page: [https://github.com/dtinth/ttycast](https://github.com/dtinth/ttycast)

</comment><comment><USER25> Not sure I understand why there's 4 nginx processes, 4 php-fpm processes and like 20 mysql processes, why so many, don't you need like 1 (or 4 if there' no pooling)?

<comment><USER26> That's worker threads, not processes. You can enable tree view in display options, then the worker threads would have been sorta moved to the right to indicate that fact, but that's not a default option.

<comment><USER25> Processes and threads are basically the same in Linux (except threads share resources, since we're talking about the same mysql "program" is a given that these are 'threads', sorry if I'm imprecise and call everything the same).

I'm no mysql expert but I highly doubt you need more than a few threads (a bunch for the db housekeeping and one per connection), looks like this server is not using pooling. Then again I don't know much about WP and I may be talking out of my behind.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Nice idea although a bit dangerous! I wonder if it would be better to use as background the output of a program like gotty, which streams a terminal's output as a web page.

</comment><comment><USER28> Interesting, thanks! Probably not as cool, but you could also just get the output of the regular top, parse it and generate HTML from it (a bit like [http://tracesof.net/uebersicht/](http://tracesof.net/uebersicht/))

</comment><comment><USER29> >Is it a good idea to show everybody what your server is doing?

I'm guessing no, but it's neat.

</comment><comment><USER30> Nice. Always meant to try and do something similar myself using [https://github.com/joewalnes/websocketd](https://github.com/joewalnes/websocketd)

</comment><comment><USER31> Drunken Security: Sorry for the downtime, Server is up again! :)

</comment><comment><USER29> What did you do to stop the client from caching the background image?

<comment><AUTHOR> Like this: [https://gist.github.com/trampi/3eaf4a68a5e0a57aab05](https://gist.github.com/trampi/3eaf4a68a5e0a57aab05) If you have further questions you are welcome :-)

<comment><USER29> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> GraphicsMagic > image magic

atop > htop</comment>


Jonathan's Card - <AUTHOR> http://jonathanstark.com/card/ <comment><USER3> This reminds me of something that happened when I was just a bit younger... My girlfriend and I were graduating from pharmacy school and she was applying for residency positions (yes, they have those for pharmacists). Well, she found out she got the one she really wanted and so that night we went out to a nice dinner to celebrate. We did it up like you would expect a happy couple to - nice bottle of wine, share an appetizer and dessert, etc. We were still living on loans at the time and so in my head I was keeping track of about how much the meal was going to run me at the end of the night (for better or worse - keep in mind we were in college at the time). We had easily cleared a hundred bucks (quite the meal for college students who usually eat $7 sandwiches or more likely cook for themselves!), and when it was time for the bill, our waitress told us "The couple that was sitting over there paid for it."

!

You wanna talk about made our day? Try made our week. We had seen the older couple earlier, but we didn't know them, and they were gone by the time we got our bill. We couldn't even thank them, and we were just so... shocked. Since then, whenever we go out for a nice meal, I look for a young couple who looks happy and in love, just waiting to return that favor.

C.S. Lewis described altruism in one of his apologist books as a "good infection" - kindness that spreads uncontrollably. I can't do anything but agree.

<comment><USER4> I have heard similar restaurant stories happen to some of my friends. Jonathan's card is also a good idea.

However, I can't help wondering that with all this technology we are ending up in a situation where the Haves help the Haves and they all feel better for a little while. What can we do to make it easy to help the really needy? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just as easily drop $10 to help someone eat a few meals a day? I am aware of all the real world problems and constraints, but I hope these examples inspire some of HN community to build stuff that will help those that really need it.

<comment><USER5> The good thing about _random_ altruism, i.e. giving stuff to people regardless of whether they need it or not, is that it doesn't encourage welfare dependency.

When you give free stuff to "those in need", you have to be extremely careful not to just wind up changing the balance of incentives in a way that just encourages them to stay "in need". Otherwise you're harming them, not helping them.

<comment><USER6> I feel like random altruism makes us feel good while probably doing very little actual good. As the OP said, it's haves giving to haves.

<comment><USER5> As a have, I'm cool with this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Things like this are just apt for abuse. While in real life when this happens, we get a small connection with the person (they live near me / they also were getting coffee), on the internet, people only see a free gift card that automatically refills itself, and not the people that paid for it. When you are playing with other peoples money, it's hard to be frugal.

<comment><USER8> I'm trying to figure out- what's the difference between loading the card and just dropping $10 on the ground?

<comment><USER9> Nobody is going to drop back 20 bucks after they found the $10 bill.

<comment><USER10> Thinking outside the box and buying someone a coffee can sometimes have unexpected results: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2860312>

<comment><USER11> Link seems to be broken. What did it point to?

<comment><USER10> [http://www.blog.wa.tt/finding-a-technical-co-founder- using-a...](http://www.blog.wa.tt/finding-a-technical-co-founder-using-a- commun)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Whenever I go through a toll bridge, I frequently pay the toll of the person behind me. I've sometimes wondered if it propagates backward at all. For the Starbucks card, I would love to live in a society where this could work. Unfortunately it's one of those things where one anonymous bad egg will ruin (i.e., drain the account) for everyone else. Some way to restrict it to a community with less anonymity would help (i.e., go to a web site, auth through hacker news, and then you get the image -- then it is tied to your HN identity).

<comment><USER13> > I frequently pay the toll of the person behind me

In what country/state/city? Is that legal? In most (all?) US cities, it is illegal to fill other peoples' parking meters because that robs the city of fines. But maybe it's not a concern for tolls?

> I've sometimes wondered if it propagates backward at all.

At most, it would only reach exactly the car behind you. If that driver decides to pay the toll anyway (or the attendant secretly pockets the additional payment), the extra payment would be surely be swallowed.

<comment><USER14> Whoa. That's odd. I think it should be illegal for the government to rely / depend on illegal behavior to make money. Otherwise, it seems like a conflict of interest in that there is no incentive to tackle the root cause of crime anymore.

<comment><USER15> I knew someone who got a parking ticket because he filled his meter. All the cars next to him that didn't bother paying in the first place got nothing. We guessed that the expiring electronic meter signaled the nearest enforcement patrol, and they didn't bother to check neighboring meters that didn't send the "expired" signal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Hmm, I think posting the value of the card affects the data points. I understand why it needs to be done, but my thinking is that if nobody knows how much is on there it leaves it less prone to outright abuse.

If the card suddenly gets a $100 recharge I'm sure it will be abused a lot more. Maybe that's part of the experiment, but I'd like to see what people do in general without that knowledge.

EDIT: or maybe even just a "this card has more than <insert cost of minimum item>" so that people know it can be used, but not how many times.

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

I've been thinking about this quite a bit. One the one hand, last week some jerk saw a $50 balance and spent the whole thing in one shot.

On the other hand, people need to know when there is money on the card if they are thinking about walking down to a sbux to get a coffee.

I might try the "there's more than $10 on the card right now". I've also experimented with delaying the reloaded messages, and doling out the money more directly by asking who wants a coffee.

Folks who respond get the update if they're quick. We'll see what happens, but I believe that there is a sustainable way to handle it.

Cheers! j

<comment><USER18> Out of curiosity, every 15 coffees people buy, does Starbucks send you a coupon for a free drink in the mail?

<comment><USER10> Looks like it: <http://yfrog.com/kizp5xqj>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> @Socialize just loaded $100 on the card: <http://twitter.com/#!/Socialize/status/100347389134643200>

Here's the conf: <http://drod.io/2R3o0I2a3R3n3S2L1J2N>

<comment><USER20> It looks like someone has figured out how to empty the card, in 2 minutes: [https://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/1003474991889776...](https://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100347499188977665)

<comment><USER19> I heard that! Looks like Jonathan's social experiment is clashing w/ eBay's "people are good" philosophy... either that or there are a LOT of thirsty people all at the same time.

Regardless, I'm glad we tried it; anyone have any theories of how it's being hacked?

<comment><USER21> I think someone could have bought a SBux card with it. Looks like it has happened at least a few times now all within less than a minute or two of the balance being there. An employee or someone camping a store, perhaps... Is it possible to use the number to buy a card off their website online?

<comment><USER19> I'll be willing to put another $100 on the card on behalf of @Socialize's SDK Speed Challenge ( <http://go.GetSocialize.com/SDK-Challenge>) if someone can come up with a way to track who's hacking it. Any ideas?

<comment><USER21> I wonder what data you could get from reading the actual barcode? Would the CSC be in there?

Edit: I just checked with an online barcode reader and this isnt the case. It resolves to 6061006913522430

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I used to work at Chick-fil=A before I started working for a startup and we would get people that would start paying for the people behind them in the drive thru and the next car would pull up and we'd say: Hey you had a...(whatever they had)..and the car behind you has already taken care of it. They would look shocked, smile, and say well we will get the car behind us. And this would go on for 10 or more cars.

It was really awesome. We also had people come through and ask for food for a homeless guy that sits on the off ramp on our interstate exit, and Chick-fil-A would give them food to take to the homeless guy and I'm sure many more situations occur all across the country that make peoples lives better. I think there is a thread of hope in humanity.

</comment><comment><USER21> Potentially abusive use shown in these tweets.

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034749918897766...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100347499188977665)

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034674284272844...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100346742842728448)

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034195955777536...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100341959557775360)

Edit: Any ideas?

Edit: It just happened again...

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10035604975584460...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100356049755844608)

Edit: More...

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036286052539596...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100362860525395968)

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036486417377689...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100364864173776897)

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10036536246547660...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100365362465476608)

<comment><USER23> Something does sound fishy. I wonder why someone would ruin the fun for everyone involved.

<comment><USER24> $100 spent on coffee for the homeless maybe? Just to take an optimistic view on the data.

<comment><USER23> You could be right, since something similar did take place as can be confirmed in one of the posts below (a large purchase for the homeless). But certainly we can agree that $15, $30, and $100 being drained in minutes to the exact penny must be cause for concern.

Edit: draining to $0.00 is OK, as jonathan explains below.

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

Draining the card to the penny is not weird. If there is $10 on the card and your purchase is $11.50, $10 will be removed from the card and you have to pay the remaining $1.50 some other way.

Expected behavior :) j

<comment><USER21> There is at least _two_ cases that this doesnt explain.

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10034195955777536...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100341959557775360)

[http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10035604975584460...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100356049755844608)

edit: now at least 5, see above

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

I see what you're saying, and of course it is possible that some jerk is buying gift cards with the card.

That said, it's worth pointing out that the tweet stream is not real time and it doesn't have every transaction. The card balance is scraped from the sbux site every minute and posted to Twitter if it has changed since the last tweet. When there are multiple transactions in the same minute, the changes get aggregated. This can result in some strange looking numbers.

What I think we're learning here is that if someone wants to reload the card, lots of little transactions over time is better than one big one. Or, perhaps the balance should not be tweeted.

Thoughts? j

<comment><USER25> Can you put spending limits on a card? Or disable it entirely?

What I'm wondering is if you can have a deposit-only card, which transfers funds to the live card to keep it topped up at $10. Downside is some people have to wait an extra minute or two for free coffee; upside is someone trying to clean out the account has to spread it over a bunch of transactions, which even if it doesn't stop everyone probably raises the barrier to entry.

A PayPal account could also work for this.

Then you could broadcast a rough total balance, and just have a binary indicator for when the live card gets topped up.

<comment><USER17> Thanks for your feedback! Your suggestion is a good one and something that I've been considering. It is possible to reload one sbux card from another, so I was thinking about using one for deposit only and dribbling the balance into the purchase card at $20 per hour or similar. I think there's something about this that would ruin the excitement so I'm working on different approach at the moment. Not sure where it'll end up.

<comment><USER25> Yeah, I was thinking about that too. One thought I had (which others have suggested) is to encourage people to donate in small amounts— rather than drop $25 on the card if you're feeling generous, you should drop $5 on it each morning for a week.

But since that's kind of a hassle, then you'd whip up a quick app that lets people easily amortize a larger contribution over a series of coffee-scale contributions. Connect that to their twitter account, and you can credit each individual coffee donation to an individual and report them individually.

It's _effectively_ the same as having a larger account balance, but since you're not holding the money it feels more engaging and social for folks.

<comment><USER17> The thing that scares me about this idea is the effect it would have on the donor if they didn't see their donation reflected immediately in the feed. Not only is it less exciting, but it potentially opens up questions about where the money is in the meantime.

I will strenuously avoid this turning into anything resembling a bank - <USER2> needs to be more like a "take a penny, leave a penny" tray sitting on a Starbucks counter. If someone want to be a jerk and empty the tray into his pocket, so be it. They're just a jerk who I'm sure will get what they deserve in life.

Fingers crossed, j

<comment><USER24> If you go with the deposit only card option, you could adjust your feed to display the aggregate of the two cards; but you're effectively capping an individual transaction to $20. The donor therefore sees their changes reflected in real time, but any cheats are limited (hopefully a cashier would get suspicious / frustrated if someone tried to work around the $20 limit by going multiple times in succession).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here and kind of not: How can you justify spending $n to buy coffee for someone with a smartphone instead of donating $n to someone with fewer resources and greater needs?

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

Fair point. My goal is to figure out the dynamics of social giving in this fashion and create a similar sustainable model around items that are less "luxury" than coffee.

For example, I can imaging people paying for other people's groceries or medicine in a similar manner. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems worth trying.

Best, j

<comment><USER25> I don't go to Starbucks, but I just loaded up $10 because I'd really like to see this "succeed", whatever that means. It's gone already, so I guess the experiment is working? :P

<comment><USER17> Thanks! If you have a Twitter account PLMK your username so I can give you credit :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> $5,000 for @jonathanscard ... why not! <http://twitter.com/#!/Socialize/status/100375061587951616>

</comment><comment><USER27> Although the bit about paying it forward and social sharing is a great idea on its own, I think I'm a tad more excited that he actually made an API for this. That's seriously awesome.

</comment><comment><USER28> > Plus, it's actually kinda fun to see those rewards stars drop into my in-app > coffee cup.

Well, Jonathan may get the Rewards so it is not completely altruistic.

A real-time map of where transactions have been made ala <http://twittervision.com> might be interesting if this card goes viral

<https://www.starbucks.com/card/rewards>

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

Yes, unfortunately I do get the rewards. I get a free coffee for every 15 purchased. I figured that the free coffees would accrue to the card itself and therefore every 16th person would get a free coffee. As it turns out, sbux mails free coffee coupons to me:

<http://yfrog.com/keup3hxj>

I'm not sure how to redistribute them fairly, but I was thinking that I could at least pass them out at my local store. However, doing so is expressly forbidden and my name is on the postcards.

Thoughts? j

<comment><USER29> If you're willing to throw the dice a bit, and you wouldn't consider this a tainting factor (no sarcasm), contact Starbucks. There's a distinct possibility they may work with you. Depending on how you judge the risk, you may want to do this anyhow, lest they simply shut the card down entirely in the near future. There is of course the risk that contacting them may cause that result sooner, but... in the long term you're probably better off contacting them anyhow because if they're going to shut it down when you bring it to their attention, they're going to shut it down when they discover it anyhow. I think you still come out ahead in the case where you contact them and they end up not shutting it down when they would have if you didn't contact them.

Otherwise, you're "stuck"; be open about it (as you are), and use them or not. I wouldn't hold it against you either way, personally.

<comment><USER24> Good shout - and Starbucks know good press so they're likely to keep it open when they see how much attention this project's getting. It seems strange that they don't just give you the free ones direct to your card - I guess it's down to the psychology of receiving a free actual physical thing, rather than there just being a slightly longer delay between needing to top up your card.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I know it is a fictional movie but if you haven't seen it, "Pay it Forward" is a movie that might make you briefly think about your impact.

<comment><USER30> But stop watching 15 minutes before the end. The end of the movie totally countered everything they were trying to say in the rest of movie, IMO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> There's a cafe under the castle in Prague where for a decade or more, patrons can buy an extra coffee for someone else. A physical cup goes up on a line above the counter. Others, usually students, will come in, see the cups, and ask for the free coffee. A Czech architecture student told me she never paid for a coffee -- just took one from those donated. When I would visit the cafe, I would make sure to add another cup or two to the line.

Jonathan's Card didn't seems to work, and it makes me think (unsurprisingly) that what works at local levels as this cafe in Prague, can't work in the Extremistan that is the entire global community.

We're so used to all the benefits of this new, suddenly-made-close world: play poker with a guy in Singapore one moment, buy an antique off an old woman in Portugal the next, without moving anything but the mouse; that we forget the beauty and function that the local still provides.

</comment><comment><USER32> This reminds me of the drive-through "pay-it-forward" chains that spontaneously appear from time to time:

[http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004084452_w...](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbucks20m.html?syndication=rss)

</comment><comment><USER33> Such a simple and wonderful idea; it brightened my Sunday. (Edit: I wonder how soon it will take SBX to decide that this is a vulnerability in their mobile app and change something that will break this.)

<comment><USER34> It really doesn't seem that much of a "vulnerability" actually. The only way to get a picture is if you get ahold of the victim's phone, or they willingly give it up to you.

If you get ahold of the victim's phone, the victim has bigger problems (NFC, e-mail, saved passwords, etc.).

<comment><USER35> All you need is a high-res picture of the victim's phone. Take a picture of them paying, use the same barcode yourself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Standing in line waiting for my drink. Cool experiment. Going to put the cash back when I get home.

<comment><USER36> Follow-up, going to add money now but learning why for the modest bunch, this is genius. I spent a bout $5.50 USD to get a drink for my girlfriend and I. When I go to the Starbucks reload a card site, I have to put at least $10.00 USD on the card. What's more is this made me really think about the idea of Google Wallet and any other phone-based credit card apps. In theory, I could take a screenshot of anyone's card and just mail it to myself. Does anyone know if there's plans to randomize barcodes/symbols to prevent things like this? This really just brightened up my Sunday evening.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The twitter feed updates once per minute, so if the $100 is spent by a bunch of people w/in that period of time, it will just show -$100. Should be checkable by Jonathan?

</comment><comment><USER38> "Jonathan's Card is an experiment in social sharing of physical goods using digital currency on mobile phones."

What, exactly, is the hypothesis? While this _seems_ cool, I really don't understand what he's setting out to prove, that we don't already know: This will work until the number of people who abuse it grows to a certain point, after which everyone will loose faith, and nobody will contribute more funds.

[Ha. I just noticed the posts describing how this is being hacked.]

</comment><comment><USER39> This is a really cool experiment. Coffee seems like the perfect use case since it's awkward to exploit, in that you're not going to buy $100 worth of coffee, just because the card has $100 on it. But what about other physical goods, like Barnes & Nobles, HEB, Home Depot?

<comment><USER40> Well, you could buy a $100 starbucks card, which would break things. Someone already spent $30: [http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10029778012327526...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100297780123275264)

<comment><USER41> That was me. One latte plus $25 worth of food for two homeless guys outside. Turns out they didn't want any of it. I think I might've insulted them by bringing them food that they hadn't asked for. :/

<comment><USER42> This is a pretty great counterpoint to people who see something like this and immediately think of those who want to 'game the game'. Not that the exception proves the rule, but altruism does (in my opinion) beget altruism, good on you Sam.

<comment><USER43> Too bad the altruism was a ruse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Here is a heat map of the location of @ mentions for @jonathanscard, which for the most part is the location of those that have added funds to the card.

<http://www.myheatmap.com/maps/b2Pqu0EGSgs=>

</comment><comment><USER45> It would be really fun to combine this kind of point of sale reward with games or puzzles or tasks, sort of like mechanical Turk combined with OKCupid or wufoo.

Cash prizes are less interesting for this kind of thing. (various studies)

<comment><USER46> >Cash prizes are less interesting for this kind of thing.

I've read the same, but I don't believe it. For example people will say that fame is more important than money, but I would argue fame leads to more work, or more free stuff which in turn leads to money or more money than a set cash incentive. Or the case where people do things for points, but when those points are redeemable for physical items or discounts again this leads right back to some sort of cash savings. I think it always go back to some sort of monetary incentive.

<comment><USER24> I read in a recent Wired UK article that some banks have opted to pay a sum of money to a charity of their employee's choice, rather than paying the employee a full bonus - the idea being they've found this to be a better motivator for employees. Though admittedly it's also good publicity for the banks running such schemes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I tried to load it, but all I got was: "This recipient does not accept payments from non-U.S. PayPal accounts." (I'm Swiss) Why would Starbucks restrict from where they get their money?

<comment><USER48> Paying with CC from outside the US works.

<comment><USER47> Hm, I didn't feel like giving *$ my email. But now that I tried it it says: "Please select a state or province." (I cant find anything in this list that is not US/Can) and "Please enter a ZIP Code at least 5 characters long" (we just have 4 digits). They just don't want my money..

<comment><USER48> "Please select a state or a province" I selected "Armed Forces Europe" ;)

<comment><USER47> Instead of virtually enlisting in the US Army I decided to just donate 10x what I tried to load on the card to a charity for Somalia. Thanks Jonathan for igniting my desire to give!

<comment><USER48> How is that Jonathans fault?

<comment><USER49> I think he was being genuine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> The balance just went from $0 to $40 - awful nice of whoever did it. I'm a big fan of this idea - put in $5 and you can help out someone who you've probably never met!

<comment><USER10> what about buying a coffee and then loading the exact amount back on the card?

<comment><USER51> Seems to kind of defeat the point?

Use it when you can't afford coffee, refill it when you can afford a coffee plus a little more...

<comment><USER52> I don't understand: Do people really alternate between being able to afford a coffee and not being able to, more than a couple of times in a lifetime?

<comment><USER53> Seriously, many people experience that weekly. That's what it means to live paycheck to paycheck.

<comment><USER3> I'm really not trying to be critical of other people's lifestyles (and I like the idea behind Jonathan's Card), but when it comes down to it I would want to be able to educate those people that they are living outside of their means rather than enable them.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck and buying Starbucks every morning, that's definitely part of your problem. I understand and fully appreciate paying a bit more for a quality product, but when it comes down to it, being able to start a savings and plan for your future is more important than enjoying a better cup of coffee in the morning. It's directly analagous to buying a car that's out of your price range (say, a Lexus when you're only bringing in $35,000 a year pre-tax) and struggling to pay the note on it every month. You really can live with the cheaper product, and in the long run it may do you a world of good.

Am I wrong? I'd like to see some other people's input on this idea.

<comment><USER53> You're not wrong about what they should do, it just has no bearing on what they do do. Given the choice between short term pleasure or long term pleasure for a short term sacrifice, most choose the former rather than the latter. Being able to delay pleasure is a skill many people just don't have.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I don't really like how this is playing out, seems every time the card gets a decent amount of funds it gets takes in 1 lump sum. As people have said I think the buy a gift card thing ruins it, socially I don't think people would run up $100 purchase in one go unless they aren't buying coffee/ food.

If people donating to it's money is all going to a couple of people working the system for their own gain it doesn't really motivate people to give to it.

</comment><comment><USER55> At this point it's clear that the card can be abused as there are people who for some reason think it's cool to suck the balance completely dry.

However, a company like Starbucks could set something up that is very similar to Jonathan's experiment but with a reduced abuse potential: just introduce a card with a limit per transaction. For example, if you could only charge 6 USD per purchase to the card, it would make life difficult for the cheaters.

</comment><comment><USER56> This is a great experiment. I just added some money to the card. I wonder to prevent abuse, if perhaps you should use two cards , one for people to give to (A) and the other to use at starbucks (B). You can transfer from (A) to (B), when the balance of (B) goes below a certain amount say $15 so that one person can't abuse the card by taking away all the existing balance.

</comment><comment><USER57> I put in $11. Part of it was to download my iOS app Canon Lens Buddy (<http://bit.ly/pe2KFS>) as part of Advertising/social experiment.

The credits lasted 10 minutes before used up. Should be interesting to see if this results in any downloads.

Proof of top up: <http://twitpic.com/62shre>

</comment><comment><USER58> Interesting experiment in that the image is public with no signup/restriction to get at it. You would need to have a continuous stream of new "pay-it- forward" users to add money on the card, no? There are lots of coffee drinkers in the world... Wasn't there something in the news not too long ago about an investment firm that ran this way? :)

<comment><USER59> > Wasn't there something in the news not too long ago about an investment firm > that ran this way? :)

Only if there's also a continuous stream of people who are drinking without paying. If, out of a sense of community responsibility, people pay in close to what they drink (or a little bit more), then this system works.

<comment><USER58> Yes, but that is kind of what posting the image without a barrier to entry kind of guarantees, no? I guess that is the 'experiment'.. It would be more interesting if there were two cards, one public, one restricted to HN members or some other subset of 'public'.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> It would be cool if you could see who paid for your coffee and also who had spent the money, and let them communicate.

<comment><USER10> Dave, just did that. Looking for a co-founder for my cleantech startup who likes coffee... very important... Jonathan gave me a sweet shoutout.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> Reminds me of cafe in Japan where you order for person who comes after you and you eat what was ordered by person before you <http://www.cabel.name/2009/09/kashiwa-mystery-cafe.html>

</comment><comment><USER27> I've created a Haskell implementation of his API: <http://rawr.mschade.me/jonathanscard/>

The page on Rawr includes a basic usage example as well as links to my implementation on GitHub and Hackage.

</comment><comment><USER19> OK I just tried a test: @Socialize put $49 on the card -- let's see if a smaller amount still tips off the hacker: <http://drod.io/2E071F3T0C0V0G1w0f39>

<comment><USER19> the $49 is on there! Someone go buy a latte, quick! <http://drod.io/3F0U1n340W1c0H1H0F29>

<comment><USER62> That $49 sparked my walk over to Starbucks on the corner to buy one. (I put $10 on the card last night myself, hadn't used any.) By the time I was halfway there it was gone, and I decided to just buy it anyway, hoping it'd gotten filled but the feed hadn't updated yet -- and the barista gave it to me for free, unprovoked. I didn't even have to present the card.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> I agree, photos, names, or some proof of humanity of the people behind the karma would help to stem abuse. The internet almost makes this abuse of karma easier due to the anonymity. You just don't feel as bad.

</comment><comment><USER64> I contributed in order to get people telling my wife (<http://twitter.com/#!/raintea>) Happy Birthday tomorrow (8/8).

Thought I'd cross-post here for the cause too :)

</comment><comment><USER65> just made a basic visualization of the data on the balances endpoint. <http://aoberoi.me/jonathans-card/>

I'm thinking about what types of interesting questions we can answer by visualizing the data. If anyone wants to contribute to that effort, fork me on github (<https://github.com/aoberoi/jonathans-card>) and send me a pull request, i'll update the site.

</comment><comment><USER34> As somebody else mentioned, it's unfortunate that one bad person could ruin it for everybody else.

Is it possible to restrict the card only to coffee (to prevent huge catering orders)?

<comment><USER66> It's _possible_ someone could abuse it. It will be interesting experimental data to see if this happens, how often it happens, and how much it happens.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> There's no money on the card? <http://jonathanstark.com/card/api/latest>

<comment><USER68> There's $46.88 now, it fluctuates a lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> I hope Starbucks' system can handle the amount of activity this thing is eventually going to get! You're picking up a lot of steam.

</comment><comment><USER23> awesome initiative! I always loved the pay it forward concept.

P.S. does anyone want to call this guy Lord Starkbucks?

Now I know where Jon Snow ends up.

</comment><comment><USER70> this is completely amazing and a great proof of concept -- there is so much that could be built on top of this

<comment><USER71> A while ago I was toying with the idea of making a BitCoin<->SBUX automated exchanger for fun, since card transactions are free and could be automated relatively easily. Never did get around to it. Also, there's a rather large scammy underside to BitCoin that would probably arbitrage the hell out of it.

<comment><USER72> Arbitrage with BitCoin? Surely you joke!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> I think it is wonderful that many are generously giving others free coffee.

But... how many of them really believe in karma?

</comment><comment><USER74> Karma Behaviorism: Does It Pay Off? <http://bit.ly/nMPtFV>

</comment><comment><USER75> And in case anyone was wondering the first balance he tweeted was:

jonathanscard

I got $7.91 left on me.

18 Jul

</comment><comment><USER76> this is such a good thing and i hate to see this go to waste when some capitalist bastard starts selling coffees for half the price using the card.

</comment><comment><USER77> It worked! Thanks for the iced Americano and pastry!

<comment><USER10> I think you might be the only person who has given thanks verbally back to the community... good on ya!

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> So, anybody set up the Auto-Reload yet ;-)?

</comment><comment><USER46> interesting experiment, but all it takes is one troll to ruin the whole thing.

</comment><comment><USER79> I love this idea.

</comment><comment><USER80> You can check the balance here <http://www.talkaboutdesign.com/starbucks/>

</comment><comment><USER81> US only?

</comment><comment><USER82> And Starbucks shuts this down in 5... 4... 3... 2...

<comment><USER83> Why should they?

<comment><USER84> Because he gets a lot of free coffee rebates.

<comment><USER85> Why would they care as long they get 15 cups of coffee sold? And one person with lots of free coffee tokens is very less likely to use them all than various persons having them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> OK I'm going to go nuclear to determine if this is some automated script or a manual hack: @Socialize just put $300 (!!!) on the card (remember... this is to promote the SDK Speed Challenge... so maybe click the link so I can claim some kind of ROI! <http://go.GetSocialize.com/SDK-Challenge>)

I figure if it's a script, the $300 will disappear instantly. But if it's manual, it's unlikely that someone could manually xfer that at a Starbucks counter w/o getting questioned.

Confirmations (max was $100 at a time):

<http://drod.io/0G391o170o1e1V0Y400H> <http://drod.io/1t362M3B1a0t421I1Q0b> <http://drod.io/2O1R052m0g0q1g1P1x1V>

<comment><USER17> Jonathan here:

The card was not hacked. Looks more like you're just trying to promote your link. Thanks though.

Cheers! j

<comment><USER19> Jonathan, re: not hacked -- do you think people are _really_ spending exactly $45 at Starbucks in one shot?

<comment><USER19> @michaelschade that's my point exactly: $45 was removed and $4 was left on the card: [http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/10035604975584460...](http://twitter.com/#!/jonathanscard/status/100356049755844608)

So someone either bought _exactly_ $45 worth of Starbucks on the card within minutes of me putting $49 on it, or someone is hacking it.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


'Resign from Facebook': experts offer Mark Zuckerberg advice for 2019 - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/01/mark-zuckerberg-new-years-resolutions-2019-expert-advice <comment> apk-d > Will be: Spend time with people he wants to connect with, perhaps employees > or maybe his family.

> Should be: Hire more people of color at the executive level, reporting > directly to him.

I enjoy reading some good old Zuckerberg bashing as much as anyone these days, but somehow, this article makes me feel disgusted. Not that hiring people of color is bad (before someone overzerously makes that interpretation), it's just that this is so far removed from anything resembling a rational debate, it's essentially turned into a recitation of political buzzphrases.

</comment><comment><USER2> 'Resign from Facebook'? Delete Facebook, Hit the gym, Lawyer up.

</comment><comment><USER3> I wish he'll read the entire article and answers provided by some wise people.</comment>


CSS Box Alignment Level 3 Updated - <AUTHOR> http://www.css3.info/css-align-needs-feedback/

<comment><USER2> We already have vertical centering via flex-box:

[https://philipwalton.github.io/solved-by- flexbox/demos/verti...](https://philipwalton.github.io/solved-by- flexbox/demos/vertical-centering/)

It's great that this is getting discussed as a way to make things more consistent, but you can basically use all its features now if you want to. Look at all the solved-by-flexbox examples; they're enlightening. And you can already use flex-box in ie9+ and ff/chrome with no problems.

<comment><USER3> Having a simpler way to get vertical alignment would be nice though, as nice as flexbox is. A better way of getting horizontal alignment would be great too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Well, it's taken 18 years to get this far...

Should this draft pass muster, I'm very much looking forward to attempting to explain the differences, probably for the rest of my working life, between "justify-content", "align-content", "justify-self", "align-self", "justify- items", and "align-items". (I'm assuming by the time it's an actual W3C Recommendation, I'll actually understand the differences myself. No guarantees there.)

</comment><comment><USER5> It looks like we're on the _verge_ of getting a vertical alignment property in CSS, not "just got".</comment>


This is for bicycles what Tesla is for cars - <AUTHOR> http://greyp-bikes.com/ <comment><USER3> At a weight of 49 kg, this is way too heavy to be considered "sort of a bicycle". Pedelecs _assist_ the rider, whereas here it's necessary to have a charged battery, or you'll feel like there's another person riding along with you.

Taking a look from the other "what is a bicycle" side, this thing fills an interesting niche: even when you only have to pedal for 1% of the power in street mode, you're still pedaling, so in many legislations you'll be a bicycle by law. In that sense, that thing has a law switch to toggle between motorcycle (that you could also ride on bike lanes) and bicycle (that you could take on the Autobahn - wat).

<comment><USER4> > At a weight of 49 kg, this is way too heavy to be considered "sort of a > bicycle".

Indeed, and for the price tag ($8000) you can get something like 4 brompton nanos (brompton foldable frame with an electric motor mod replacing the front wheel)

<comment><USER5> $8000? You can get an electric motorbike for that price tag. [http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=prod...](http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=157)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Can't carry it on my shoulder, can't put it on my car's bike rack and how would I secure it? U-lock the front part of the frame?

It also doesn't appear to have turn signals or a place for license plates. I'm guessing this isn't meant to be used in the US, or in California at least, where both would be required. (see [http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5030.htm](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5030.htm) and [http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/motors.html](http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/motors.html))

A nice toy I guess, but it's not a good candidate for replacing my retrospec or my electric scooter. BTW, maximum speed for this type of vehicle in California is 30 mph so you'd need to ship it with a governor. ([http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d01/vc406.htm](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d01/vc406.htm))

Also, 108 pounds? That's not a good weight for a bicycle at all - but still a great one for a theif to toss it in the back of a truck.

I'm sure if you unscrew that fancy biometric id all you'd have to do is give some pin +5V to turn it on.

No wireless, less space than the Nomad ... I mean ... ahem, it's very pretty. I hope it does well.

<comment><USER7> You might be interested in the Specialized Turbo[1]. It's an improvement over the Greyp G-12 with respect to every criteria you just mentioned.

[1] [http://turbo.specialized.com/](http://turbo.specialized.com/)

<comment><USER8> Looks cool, but I have to say that the video on that site did pretty much nothing to explain to me what the bike is all about.

<comment><USER7> You're right. That's a fantastically useless link. Here's some reviews:

* [http://mashable.com/2013/09/04/specialized-turbo-review/](http://mashable.com/2013/09/04/specialized-turbo-review/)

* [http://reviews.cnet.com/search-results/specialized-turbo-ele...](http://reviews.cnet.com/search-results/specialized-turbo-electric-assisted/4505-5_7-35739507.html)

A little tinkering with the crankset (which, unlike the cassette, looks accessible and nonproprietary) and removal of any speed limiter that might be in place could make for a 50lb machine that easily tops 30mph at a comfortable cadence.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is not what I would call a bicycle. It's a motorbike that allows you to pedal should you want to. In the UK, this would need a motorbike licence. There are strict rules as to how an electric bicycle may assist you and up to what speed. Non-pedal assist (just turn the handle) are limited to 20kmh otherwise they are considered a motorbike. Pedal assist are effectively self- limiting.

Also in the video, the woman accelerates away from a motorbike then loses him when she decides to carry on through a pedestrianised area at I guess 30kmh. WTF?

We have people at work who have electric bikes. The key is that they can be parked in bike racks with other bikes AND, most importantly, they can grab the battery and charge it at their desk.

Tyres are very fat on this bike so won't bike rack and the battery is internal so you will need a specific charging point.

As a bike for use on a mountain bike trail...bet the handling is way to heavy for most trails.

Clever idea but not sure who it's aimed at. I'm guessing an environmentally conscious dirt bike riders?

<comment><USER10> Unless this bike can reach it's top speed in around 2 seconds, I don't the motorcycle was really going for it. (I'm basing this on my not-ridiculously- fast motorcycle which can easily reach 65kmh in 2 seconds)

<comment><USER9> He slowed down to check her out :) (Sorry I know that's a bad comment.)

I remember riding up to a junction clipped into my pedals some time ago, 'checking' out a girl. It was only when I stopped I realised I hadn't unclipped and fell sideways onto the road. Taught me a very valuable lesson. Always unclip :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> At my previous agency we built the website for a competitor to a bike like this. They gave us one to keep at the office so I have a little experience with it.

The bike in this article has all the same problems as the one we had.

It's waaaaaay too heavy. You can't really peddle it, not for long anyway, it's virtually impossible. It's only a matter of time before the battery runs out on you and you find yourself stuck.

You can't get it around. The one we had took several people to move up and down things. This is a pretty big issue when you're living in a London apartment (their target market).

Then there's the segway effect. Was it PG who said that you can't ride one without looking like a smug twat? The first time my boss took it out some guys in a white van slowed down to yell "get a real bike, you lazy !#&*"...

<comment><USER12> Electricity powered bicycles are not that rare here in Denmark, they look like this:

[http://www.ecykler.dk/dame/863-raleigh-society- da-n7-elcykel...](http://www.ecykler.dk/dame/863-raleigh-society- da-n7-elcykel-12.html)

which is not particularly more heavy than your average bicycle. They are mostly used by elderly ladies and heavy-set women, so the Tesla marketing aspect is not huge.

<comment><USER13> I owned the predecessor to that about 10 years ago (it was also a Raleigh, although the battery was on the downtube, not the luggage rack). It was very heavy, but ride-able, although not up hills.

The electric part of it only lasted about an hour, and it took all night to charge. Old school lead-acid thing, very temperamental. The battery was removable, though, so you could leave the bike outside and just bring that in to charge - and you could also ride the bike without carrying it with you everywhere.

Also, it only doubled your input power, IIRC, so you always had to peddle (although it more than made up for itself, weight-wise, on long climbs.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> IMHO the title should be reversed: a bicycle is to this what the Tesla is for cars:

A Tesla has a cleaner engine than a car. A bicycle has a cleaner engine (none) than a greyp-bike.

</comment><comment> the-kenny Discussed before. This is essentially a bad scooter and a bad bicycle combined. You can't use bike lanes in most countries and the motorcycle performance is bad too.

</comment><comment><USER15> This isn't the Tesla of bicycles, it's the Tesla of mopeds. Bikes don't need a Tesla equivalent, and this isn't powerful enough to be a motorbike. It's a moped.

<comment><USER16> Right, the comparison is off. A Tesla is a less polluting car. If we compare this thing to a bicycle, it's a more polluting one.

As for the Tesla of mopeds, those have been around for years and cost $2500-3500. For example, the Peugeot e-Vivacity, which has a range of 40 miles: [http://www.e-vivacity.com/en](http://www.e-vivacity.com/en)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> This is the opposite of what Tesla is for cars. It's taking the single most energy efficient vehicle I know - 99% mechanical efficiency, incredibly low carbon footprint, and an amazing calorie-per-kilometer ratio (miles-per- apple?) - and it makes it worse in every single aspect. It is probably fun to ride, and it's better for the environment than cars, but it is certainly not a "greener" bicycle.

</comment><comment><USER18> This, my friends, is an electric moped. I wouldn't pay 600 euro for it, let alone 6000. If you are looking for fuel economy, regular old-school gas mopeds can get >100mpg. Admittedly, though, they do not offer a tablet and fingerprint reader interface. This will only carry forward on the force of hype, not because it is a truly great product.

<comment><USER19> Why do I want a finger print reader? It doesn't strike me as practical.

On my bicycle I normally wear gloves, in London only for about 8 months do I wear gloves that don't cover my fingers. The only reason is a nasty one, sweat build up. I would on an electric bike want to wear finger protection and wind stopping gloves.

This whole concept strikes me of someone who hasn't thought about how it would be used on a standard day. 50kg is too much for most people to lug around manually. Where and how do you park this? If I didn't grab my hybrid and lug it up/down some stairs it would probably get nicked, and that is a bike worth only £800.

This has all the downside of a scooter, without the benefits.

<comment><USER18> I totally agree with you on all fronts. The fingerprint reference was written more in jest and sarcasm than sincerity. To me, this product reeks of the "lukewarm tea problem". This is a neat engineering project, and I am sure it is actually quite fun and fancy to use, but it is not a market winning product.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This weighs 50kg and will not be legally considered a bicycle. So you will need a license plate and insurance. And then it's probably not street legal.

So you can drive this in the woods, if you don't get caught.

<comment><USER21> What EU legislation says about the max. bike weight?

<comment><USER4> Nothing. UK legislation says it can't be more than 40kg (or 60 for a tricycle or tandem).

2002/24/EC does however say:

* the maximum continuous rated power may not be more than 250W

* assistance may be provided only while pedaling

* assistance may not be provided beyond 25 km/h

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This bike is from the same company that builds a 1000bhp all electric supercar: [http://www.rimac-automobili.com/](http://www.rimac-automobili.com/)

</comment><comment><USER23> "your middle-finger will activate the speed-mode" At least that much is on target.

</comment><comment><USER24> If I see one of these on the trails I ride I'm going to be nearly as angry as when people ride full on gasoline powered dirt bikes out there. Mountain biking is about self-sufficiency and the elegant mechanical application of human power. It's fine as a motor vehicle replacement, but the idea of one of these whizzing by on a bike path or other non-motor-vehicle-authorized path really makes me angry.

</comment><comment><USER25> 49 kg, too heavy to use it as a normal bike. This means people will use always use it in electric mode. Hmm, this takes some of the appeal away...

<comment><USER4> It makes it an overpriced electric scooter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Could you see yourself riding this regularly on the commute to the office? If not, it's a toy, not a Tesla equivalent.

It's a shame, as I think there's a lot of room for innovation in bicycles.

Not to mention, I'm waiting for the day where magic happens and I can get stats for all of my cycle rides without first having to load up a phone app (or stick on a cycle computer, for that matter).

<comment><USER27> Bicycles are probably one innovative and competitive markets out there, the amount of cutting edge technology used to shave gram weight from components is absurd, there are thousands of manufacturers for each niche in the bicycle industry.

<comment><USER26> _Bicycles are probably one innovative and competitive markets out there, the amount of cutting edge technology used to shave gram weight from components is absurd_

Somewhat unfairly, I consider the above as variations on a theme, rather than innovative new solutions.

Three problems I'd like to see solved (admittedly, with no idea other than "by magic" at present):

\- It's absurdly easy to steal bicycles, locked up or otherwise.

\- Trip statistics magic mentioned in grandfather comment

\- Making cycling in wet/windy conditions more pleasurable _without_ relying on special clothes

<comment><USER27> These are all peripherals for your bike though, I agree totally these areas need more innovation :) ESPECIALLY bike theft.

<comment><USER26> _These are all peripherals for your bike though_

I don't honestly know about that, though; I can imagine each one of these being so integral to the bike itself that they simply _couldn 't_ be peripherals.

Agreed re: bike theft - but it also grates me that if I drive to the office, a sudden unexpected downpour makes _zero_ difference to my life, whereas on my bike... wurgh.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Did you mean, this is to Motorbikes what Tesla is for cars? Isn't the bicycle already pretty damn perfect? I don't look at my bike and wish it could take petrol or was electric powered. There are tons of electric motor assisted bikes out there without the weight of a motorbike.

</comment><comment><USER28> Is their video encouraging people to ride at 60km/h on the footpaths or am I hallucinating ?

</comment><comment><USER29> The ones in this all feel more attractive - [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/reviews/9943578/Electr...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/reviews/9943578/Electric- bikes-pedal-power.html). I think that's because of the segway effect - <USER2> looks weird to be riding a vehicle while appearing to not "do" anything.

On the segway effect, I wonder what would've happened to the product had it been designed for rough riding and stunts first before it was targeted at the commuter.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm sorry, but 6000€ is way too expensive. I really think there is a market for a not-too-expensive electric small vehicle (with two or four wheels). But it really should be under 4000€. In France, Renault sells the Twizy, a two- seater quadricycle starting at 7500€. Well, it just doesn't sell, except to the richest suburbs of Paris. I think there's a huge market lying there for a cheaper and greener solution to urban mobility, but at 6000€, it's more a gadget and not a game changer…

</comment><comment><USER31> That's a lot of money for a bicycle that is going to require some serious fitness to actually use as a bicycle. I like the idea of an ebike that's reasonable priced, but that's definitely not a bicycle in the traditional sense.

Plus for that much money you could buy a reasonably decent actual bicycle (£1k-2k) and spend some time training. You'll be able to do the range (fuel required; cake goes in mouth) and not be too far off the speed.

<comment><USER4> > Plus for that much money you could buy a reasonably decent actual bicycle > (£1k-2k) and spend some time training.

For that much money you can also get a decent assisted bike a third the weight (or less). Hell, you can probably get 4.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I'd far prefer a straight electric motorcycle, especially a dirtbike. It's getting to the point where you could probably have a remote cabin powered by solar/wind locally (or small hydro, etc.), with Ka-band satellite or some kind of fixed wireless, and a well and septic field (or tanked water if portable), with all your vehicles electric powered, and be pretty free to choose your own location.

</comment><comment><USER33> This is a nice one that still behaves like a bike and does not look like it was made for the elderly.

[http://www.electrolyte.cc/de/technik/einarmiger- bandit/](http://www.electrolyte.cc/de/technik/einarmiger-bandit/)

But seriously, there are many many contenders. It's an interesting market, but there is no "Tesla" out there.

</comment><comment><USER22> This seems to be too heavy for a bicycle but it might be nice as a city scooter. In terms of electric bikes, the Mission-R seems awesome: [http://ridemission.com/technology- demonstrators/mission-r/](http://ridemission.com/technology- demonstrators/mission-r/)

</comment><comment><USER34> This is a pretty ugly machine, and too bulky to be comparable to a bicycle.

This is the Tesla of bicycles: [http://www.faradaybikes.com/](http://www.faradaybikes.com/)

Currently selling for $3500, I would buy the Faraday if it sold for around $1000-$1500.

</comment><comment><USER35> Tesla makes a greener more efficient car, this is neither a greener nor more efficient bicycle.

</comment><comment><USER36> This is too heavy and too custom.

[http://www.krankedbikes.com/](http://www.krankedbikes.com/) is the real thing. It can be used with existing bikes with a reasonable weight penalty.

</comment><comment><USER37> You really want this one, 80km/r, and looks more bad ass

[http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/bomber.html](http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/bomber.html)

</comment><comment><USER38> Please don't SPAM HN with your advertisement! This has been posted today already under the name: "Greyp: bicycle when you want it, a motorcycle when you need it" !!!

</comment><comment><USER39> Looks like a fancy "Ciao" -[http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ciao](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ciao)

</comment><comment><USER38> Please don't SPAM HN! This has been posted today already with the name: "Greyp: bicycle when you want it, a motorcycle when you need it" !!!

</comment><comment><USER40> The bicycle (and/or the vdo) is breathtaking. The price (6000 EUR) is breath taking.

<comment><USER3> 6000 Euros is on the very high end of bicycles, but I wouldn't say absurdly high. While upper-end mountainbikes cost around 3000, high-end gets you to the 6000 price range. Also consider the price of a decent pedelec, which is already around 2000 as well, and won't have motorcycle mode.

<comment><USER41> It's crazy expensive, I bought a full electric scooter for around about 500 EUROS.

China has a wealth of e-bikes in a variety of styles for far, far less.

[http://s.taobao.com/search?spm=a230r.1.4.5.oBHcUe&q=electric...](http://s.taobao.com/search?spm=a230r.1.4.5.oBHcUe&q=electric+bike&rsclick=5)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Does riding it as a bike recharge the battery? That would be great.

<comment><USER28> It does when you brake.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> A bit uglier and with an less consensual design than Tesla IMO</comment>


Digital Ocean promo code - <AUTHOR>

DEPLOY2DO for $10 credit (worth 2 months of free hosting with small plan).<p>You can sign up through my referral link if you prefer : http://bit.ly/1r1JNFj <comment><AUTHOR> Here is the clikable link. [http://bit.ly/1r1JNFj](http://bit.ly/1r1JNFj)</comment>


U.S. Cancer Death Rates Are Dropping at the Fastest Pace on Record - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-08/cancer-death-rate-in-u-s-shows-fastest-drop-on-new-treatments <comment><AUTHOR> [https://outline.com/L5S9Xt](https://outline.com/L5S9Xt)</comment>


Beej's Guide to Network Programming - <AUTHOR> http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/

<comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5241220](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5241220)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445692](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9445692)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584557](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584557)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9623813](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9623813)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5989561](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5989561)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7584974](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7584974)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=286701](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=286701)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6779200](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6779200)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9018621](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9018621)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7917102](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7917102)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4666318](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4666318)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1593037](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1593037)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=337371](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=337371)

<comment><AUTHOR> The positive side of such repetitive posts is that sometime there are some newcomers which will get to know about these amazing resources, which will be helpful to them in many different ways.

<comment><USER3> They are nice guides (even if I remember them being bashed in the old days, or maybe that was just his Win32 programming guide), however the audience of them (programming network sockets in C) seems lost here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is the one of the must haves when anyone is doing network programming. I used it heavily during my college projects.

This post is inspired from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9619375](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9619375)

</comment><comment><USER4> A total classic, and still awesome.

</comment><comment><USER5> All aboard the Beej-posts-train!</comment>


19 year old files S1 (IPO prospectus) to raise $12,500 for his beer pong company - <AUTHOR> http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1487659/000125529410000212/mainbody.htm <comment><USER2> I must say, it takes a certain kind of flair to conceive and implement a plan to take a sole-founder company that is only 3 months old public for the purpose of raising $12K in seed funding while incurring $9,700.90 in out-of- pocket expenses in the process (see Item 13 for an itemization) - an IPO that will net a best-case of $2,300 for a stock for which the offering entity disclaims that any public trading market may ever develop!

This reads like a parody of a typical public filing - every disclosure solemnly declares that the company has no assets, no experience, no prospects, and no future to speak of (other than what one might expect of a very young and very green founder who is 3 months into his first company). This is actually pretty funny - sort of like a po-faced guy intoning in mock seriousness about something he knows is wildly out of sync with reality but never letting on about it.

It must be quite a learning experience for the founder and that I assume is its sole point. Quite an amazing story.

<comment><USER3> What seems like a parody to you, seems like a pretty clever hack to me. The novelty of the making a beer pong company seems like the ultimate slap in the face to other public companies worrying about SOX compliance and such. I bet they make a lot of money from people willing to laugh at the idea and support their idea.

<comment><USER4> Reminds me of the homeless guys whose pitch is something like "I don't want money for food, I just want to buy beer". They expect the honesty to work, but personally, I think that if you want to get wasted on beer, you should get a job. So while the pitch is unique and honest, they aren't getting any of _my_ money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Attempt at a summary from skimming it:

* He sells "custom-made beer pong tables and related products"

* No revenue to date

* He owns 9.5M shares, and he's trying to sell 2.5M shares of new stock for a total of $12,500, which I think means a pre-money valuation of $47500 ($12,500 * (9.5/2.5))

* One of the risks he lists is "If we do not obtain additional financing, our business will fail."

* He plans to use the money to build tables that he can sell, including designing and building themed tables (such as a table with a college's mascot and such on it) and to build a good website

<comment><USER6> Not to mention he's entering a market that already has complete saturation of competitors. He'd do better making beer-tasting ping pong balls than manufacturing beer pong tables at this point.

<comment><USER7> Well, that being said, it's a growing market and the winner may not take all, but they will take a large chunk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Wow. That is, dare I say it, ballsy. I think this is destined to be an interesting anecdote for Mr. Richard later in life. I get the feeling the lawyer, Rory Vohwinkel, is a family friend who does this all the time (Las Vegas is ground zero for, er, _marginal_ corporations).

Interesting note - it's $12,500 for 20% of his company, a typical seed-level investment. I often wonder about the wild and woolly world of penny stocks, but never to invest in. Does anyone know what the downside is for this company if they have no better funding options (and I wouldn't be shocked to find out they didn't)?

Also, this guy's business approach is still far superior to that of the Bulletball guy.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOOw2yWMSfk>

</comment><comment><USER9> Brilliant. I assumed Finance Major at UNLV but he seems more rodeo champ - <http://www.myspace.com/turnumburnum>

Check out the MySpace wall post from BrO4LiFe13 on 4 Feb (ie, just over two weeks before the company was created): "there is some ppl that want a beer pong table so if you want to make some money tell me".

From such things, a business empire may be born.

<comment><USER10> Oh man, nice find, how did you get his myspace? Someone needs to document this story.

<comment><USER9> I am the Google-fu!

Specifically, he had his name and undergrad status at University of Nevada Las Vegas in the S1. That gave me his rodeo credentials; plus "beer pong" gave me the MySpace page which linked them together.

<comment><USER7> Brilliant. I'll work up a blog post for giggle's sake. More to come.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Cool, so does this mean he can raise investment capital from non-accredited investors?

I filed my own C-corp in NY state (All the paperwork is boilerplate, there's just a $200 filing fee)... I wonder if SEC filing is reaching the same level of boilerplate where anyone can do it with standard forms?

If so, or if it's so easy a 19 year old beer pong enthusiast can do it, then why are there only about 8 or so IPO's per year?

<comment><USER12> IPOs are underwritten by investment banks. Filing to go public without being underwritten is called a direct public offering I believe.

<comment><USER7> Granted, a direct public offering is very rare. Not unheard of, but rare indeed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Probably he then sells to some other company that wants to be publicly listed without filing its own IPO. Its an old scam.

<comment><USER13> its -> it's (sorry)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> On a side note, does anyone know how bad it is for your name and reputation if the company has to go bankrupt and go through that process? Will he get gray listed for future incorporations, background checks and such?

<comment><USER14> > On a side note, does anyone know how bad it is for your name and reputation > if the company has to go bankrupt and go through that process? Will he get > gray listed for future incorporations, background checks and such?

The answer is "it depends". Some folks will care while others won't. It's just like the color of his pants, his age, the school he went to, and so on.

Note that whether he can incorporate is a matter of law and bankruptcy doesn't affect it. (Being the subject of a consent decree related to securities fraud does, but lots of folks go bankrupt without that.)

<comment><USER7> I would imagine that any value he gains from this is "balls". He went out there and did his part. Bravo. Success or failure: he did something. Some will value that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Someone should tell him about kickstarter

<comment><USER16> Would you fund his "art" on kickstarter?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> The S1 may seem complicated, but if you've done 409A's and been audited you are very familiar with how these documents get lengthy on their own accord. Much of the language here is boilerplate that is then barely modified.

</comment><comment><USER18> So, is anyone here wondering if they could do this for a software idea they have?

</comment><comment><USER19> So how much is this filing likely costing this kid (lawyers fees + filing fees)?

<comment><USER20> From the section near the end, looks like $9,700.90

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Funniest S1 filling ever. Just have a look at the Risk Factors section.

<comment><USER22> "Because our president, Mr. Richard, currently owns 100% of our outstanding common stock, investors may find that corporate decisions influenced by Mr. Richard are inconsistent with the best interests of other stockholders."

ROTFL. Is this for real?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> lol, the kid is doing it all wrong, he shouldn't need capital for anything. The tables should be made to order. All this will do is sink his business in inventory.

<comment><USER8> I can't believe I'm getting into a discussion about this, but I noticed in the S-1 he actually is allotting $9,000 of it for marketing and general expenses. Only $3,500 is for labor and materials.

You know, this is such a simple S-1 that it would be a great first example for someone who is learning about the process. This is practically a lemonade stand.

<comment><USER10> Wow, $9k for marketing. I hope this kid is a marketing whiz and has a helluva good product. Otherwise this is going to be a costly lesson.

Although to be fair, I've lost just as much as money if not more in my teenage entrepreneurial journey.

<comment><USER23> But not his money, after all it is a _public_ offering.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Yeah. Um, a beer pong company owned and operated by a man forbidden by law in 48 or so states to obtain or possess or consume beer. Ahem.

</comment><comment><USER25> an IPO for beer pong? he better be Sarbanes-Oxley compliant

<comment><USER26> Is sarbox _such_ a burden that it would be difficult for a simple one person company to comply?

<comment><USER14> > Is sarbox such a burden that it would be difficult for a simple one person > company to comply?

Sarbox is about reporting, not size The simplicity of his biz helps him some but he's responsible to the public for everything.</comment></comment></comment>


Akamai purchases Janrain in all cash deal - <AUTHOR> https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2019/01/portland-identity-management-firm-janrain-sold-to-massachusetts-company-akamai.html <comment><AUTHOR> I wonder if this could be another purchase like Stormpath. Could Akamai eventually kill the Janrain APIs because they aren't profitable enough?

Anyone using Janrain and concerned about this acquisition?

<comment><USER2> Wow, I guess I should not be surprised. The acquisitions continue - in the last year or two we've seen the identity space really start to consolidate.

\- Okta bought Stormpath .. and killed it. \- SAP bought Gigya \- Thoma Bravo acquires majority interest in Centrify \- Google Cloud acquires Bitium \- Akamai bought Janrain \- LoginRadius - Series A from M12 (Microsoft Venture Capital) \- OneLogin - parternship with Microsoft

I think there are others as well, I'm surprised IBM didn't buy Janrain. Waiting to see who picks up ForgeRock, FusionAuth and Auth0. Most of these companies have taken so much in VC that they will be pricey to buy.

My guess is that Google, Amazon, and maybe IBM want to have a market position in this space, so it will be interesting to see what they do. Amazon already has a decent position with Cognito, Google offers some of this if you're on Firebase. IBM seems to be absent - but they have a lot of catching up to do in general, so perhaps this isn't priority.

<comment><USER2> Another round! OneLogin raises another $100 million in Series D. [https://venturebeat.com/2019/01/10/onelogin- raises-100-milli...](https://venturebeat.com/2019/01/10/onelogin- raises-100-million-to-help-enterprises-manage-access-and-identity/)</comment></comment></comment>


Citadel v126.96.36.199 Leaked in a Spanish BB - <AUTHOR> http://indetectables.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=43136&p=393109

<comment><AUTHOR> Citadel is a ZeuS fork (bot network management tool), it is being sold in the private hacker forums as a SAAS. Citadel has a CRM store, it allows its users to get support, share ideas, report bugs, poll for new features, comment on software modules, get jabber notifications and other functions.

The base package of Citadel is being sold for $2399 plus $125 each month. Plus there are modules, e.g. a $395 priced module allows self update the bot just when the antivrus software starts detecting the previous version, so it will be updated before the owner of the infected computer updates her own virus definitions database.

If you are a securtity expert or are just curious, you can download the leaked archive from <http://www.sendspace.com/file/4ug8rg> for studying and analysis, the password is Citadel. The Builder is not working.</comment>