Spanish government limits crowdfunding to € 1M, donations capped at € 3000. - <AUTHOR> http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elconfidencial.com%2Ftecnologia%2F2014-02-28%2Fel-gobierno-limita-el-crowdfunding-un-millon-maximo-con-aportaciones-de-3-000_94989%2F <comment><USER2> For a spaniard it's going to be much more easy to create a company in UK and launch the crowdfunding project with the UK company, and then, move the money by the traditional ways (dividends, getting services from a spanish based company, ...). You are not going to avoid taxed but get rid of those stupid limits and obligations.

<comment><USER3> No need to use the future tense. For a long time it has been a lot easier and cheaper for a Spaniard to open a business in the UK than in his own country.

<comment><USER4> as an italian and fellow southern european, this has been true for a long time here too.

So now they added a new 20% tax on private bank transfers from UK bank accounts to italian ones.

Just saying: be wary if your government gets inspired.

<comment><USER5> This is even true for Germany. To form a GmbH here you need to invest at least 25.000 Euros and wait weeks until the paper work gets done.

In the UK you can get a Ltd. up and running within 24 Hours for what is essentially pocket change.

The UK has exceptionally friendly laws and regulations concerning doing business and I wish more European countries would imitate them.

<comment><USER6> > This is even true for Germany. To form a GmbH here you need to invest at > least 25.000 Euros and wait weeks until the paper work gets done.

You only need to pay in half of that though (until your GmbH goes bust with debts, that is). And since 2008 there's a mini-GmbH for 1 euro: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unternehmergesellschaft_%28haf...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unternehmergesellschaft_%28haftungsbeschr%C3%A4nkt%29)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Seriously, Spain being in an economic crisis since so long, they should work on making it more attractive for people to open and run their business there instead of adding new regulations and complicating things for founders.

<comment><USER8> All the new labor and economic laws created after the crisis have been done thinking in the interest of big corporations and banks. If you are a small entrepreneur you are basically screwed.. No that they don't help you, they are actively trying to make you go bankrupt even before beginning.

In this case if you have a project that can go beyond 1mill € (I can't think of any that could reach that quantity, but that's another question), you'll have to be creative and create a company in the UK or USA to manage it.

Reading the article I realize that what they are trying to do with the new law (that basically makes the crowd-founding unusable for startups), is to protect the small investor. We've had several small investors scams (one of them by Caja Madrid, a big savings bank), in all the cases, the regulators were accused of being too little involved.

I have to agree that is a matter of time before there is a big scam with crowd-founding in Spain. So the Spanish bureaucratic logic says you'd better punish all of them(those dangerous crowd-founders) before a notorious crime is committed. Sad

Edit: added the last paragraph. Edit2: readability and typos.

<comment><USER9> Spain is a horrible place to do business. First hand experience and official data [http://www.doingbusiness.org](http://www.doingbusiness.org) confirm that.

<comment><USER10> And it doesn't even have a strong safety net and workers rights - the way Spain implemented TUPE is a joke.

<comment><USER11> I beg to differ (I completely agree with it being a horrible place to do business, on the other hand).

Apart from having free healthcare (although they are trying to change that as well), layoffs are regulated by law (companies must file a special request,ERE, to the government in order to axe more than a percentage of employees, which must be justified), workers are entitled to a severance package of 30 days (it was 45 a few years ago) of pay for each year spent at the company, and for each year working you accumulate three months worth of unemployment benefits.

I'm sure that there are countries which offer better conditions, but I can't say Spain has a weak safety net.

<comment><USER10> Um I know how Spain treats TUPE which is to say you have no protection on transfer of employer that is not the sign of a country that treats its employees well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The same bill mentions new crowdfunding platforms must have:

\- At least € 50000 on capital stock

\- A civil liability insurance that covers up to € 150000 per year.

Also individual donors must not donate:

\- More than a total of € 6000 per year on crowdfunding projects

\- More than € 3000 per year on a single crowdfunding project

Funnily enough, political parties in spain can:

\- Get donations from individuals for up to € 100.000 yearly.

\- Foundations or associations owned by political parties (think tanks) can receive limitless donations.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm born and breed in Spain and I couldn't agree more with im_dario23 talking about the 70% and ArenaSource talking about protecting banks. In my honest opinion, banks get too much protection in Spain (compared to countries of northern Europe, which act in a more ethical way thinking more about the citizen) and this smells like a new way for banks to kind of "take some profit from crowdfounding". It seems that no sooner did the Spanish government realize about the money from crowdfounding, they tried to made up a tax/limitation for it (the thing itself shows how out-of-date Spanish politicians are... that they try to create this limit now when crowfounding it's been out there for some years now). That's so spaniard... but this is just my opinion. I'd like to read more about yours and your regulations all over the world. Great page news.ycombinator. Regards from Spain

</comment><comment><USER13> Hmm, this sounds like the sort of regulation that should be considered, and then not applied (i.e. make a law that prohibits these regulations), _at an EU level_ , to protect Europe's collective interest in getting crowdfunding for its projects.

</comment><comment><USER14> Anyone knows why anyone would impose these limits to crowdfunding?

<comment><USER15> We are in talks to have the same kinds of limits in France.

I don't know about Spain but here it is essentially a need for people in charge of the "digital economy" to somehow feel useful and show that they are "regulating" something. In this case they must feel more justified because it circumvents traditional actors (i.e. banks) and involves money.

It is kind of amusing because this is a sector where most EU countries enjoyed a more liberal regulatory context before startups started to spawn in the US. And now that there is a boom, regulations are added to prevent it from developing, effectively removing any possible european competition to US companies in the space.

I don't know if this will affect the likes of Kickstarter though, if they don't have any physical presence in Spain I don't see how the government is going to know about it.

<comment><USER16> Are you implying the government sees funding money as taxable ? If so, on what basis ? Incomes ?

<comment><USER17> To be honest, in EU most things are taxable. Most EU countries will tax you on your lottery winnings, which to me is just weird and unacceptable,but this is how things work here.

<comment><USER18> The trick is to know when the tax needs to be paid and what it needs to be paid on.

This is why accountants are important. They know the system and paperwork and words; they know how you can pay tax in one form cheaper and later instead of expensive and now.

I don't think UK taxes lottery winnings.

<comment><USER19> link showing DanBC is indeed correct ([http://www.national- lottery.co.uk/player/p/help/playinginsto...](http://www.national- lottery.co.uk/player/p/help/playinginstore/faqs.ftl))

though UK lottery winnings will still be taken into account for inheritance tax if the winner dies within 7 years.

<comment><USER2> that's for parents safety

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I have legal question:

If there is campaign organized on Kickstarter or similar site, who is legal entity responsible for the campaign? This services usually collect the money and do not pass it until some conditions are met. We could argue that recipient is just subcontractor hired by Kickstarter.

<comment><USER21> Depends on the T&C of the platform. I worked at a platform, and our legals were very clear (and very cleverly constructed) to create a legal dependency from donor to project owner. We were just the marketplace, all liability for carrying out the project was on the project owner, and could (only) be enforced by the donor.

<comment><USER20> Legal responsibility for finishing the project and tax accountability could be separated. Anyway this is going to be just another accountancy nightmare.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Seems like a great opportunity for Bitcoin, if Bitcoin can overcome the many other hurdles it faces: anonymous crowdfunding, capable of circumventing ridiculous laws like this.

<comment><USER23> "capable of circumventing ridiculous laws like this"

Dude, by definition you are arguing that it's great for criminal uses.

<comment><USER24> When a law is ridiculous, the term legal is meaningless.

<comment><USER25> No it's not

It's meaning is quite clear.

That's not to say you can't argue that it should be ignored but please have a grown-up argument about it rather than resorting to rhetoric.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Beware! Spanish government wants to limit real crowdfunding, i.e., equity crowdfunding, not Kickstarter-like funding.

Not that it changes the story a lot, but I just wanted to make that clear.

</comment><comment><USER27> Brain drain has come so far in Spain it is now self-reinforcing.

</comment><comment><USER27> ... because you just can't trust income that's not silver bullion and was not preceded by genocide.

</comment><comment><USER28> Governments like this should just fuck off and let people take their own risks. Jesus. If you're worried about people getting ripped off, why don't you just run a campaign giving advice on how to choose to spot scams? Why not treat people intelligently? Oh no, sorry, something scary and different that you don't understand? Kill it!

Old dinosaurs.

<comment><USER29> Because most of that people will come running to the government institutions when they get ripped off, will complain in the newspapers that the government has allowed this to continue for far too long, etc, etc, etc.

To follow HN's mandatory analogy policy, it's like when PCs had too many options and users were shooting themselves in the foot and then Apple came along and simplified things by removing those options. Some are mad to this day, others love how they aren't caught in difficult situations.

<comment><USER30> In your analogy, there's still competition between Linux and Apple. It's not like a designers union passed a law that no more than 3 parameters per app should be available to users.

<comment><USER31> Within Schengen, there is increasingly competition between governments, too. You can choose anything from a big-government state like Sweden to a small- government state like Latvia, and differences on many other axes as well. Especially true in tech, where things are getting pretty integrated and mobile (and converging on English as the lingua franca).

<comment><USER32> The problematic part for the big-government states is that there is nothing preventing the Swede from going to government paid school & university in Sweden, making his millions in Latvia and retiring to Spain while still getting his Swedish government pension.

<comment><USER28> So Sweden's government will have to become more Latvian.

<comment><USER31> Looking at the direction of net migration, I think Latvia is currently losing that competition: people who attend university in Latvia go to pursue careers in Sweden much more often than the reverse. In fact I would guess that the "low-tax" strategy is partly motivated by an attempt to combat the brain drain. If they weren't losing so badly, they could probably afford to be a higher-tax, higher-service society, but right now they have to compete on price.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


A pull request for a privacy policy - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/tacoapp/privacy-policy/pull/1

<comment><USER2> How it should be done everywhere. So many things about your project impress me.</comment>


Logic and Mathematics - an overview. - <AUTHOR> http://www.solipsys.co.uk/new/LogicAndMathematicsOverview.html?HN

<comment><USER2> Be warned that the term 'overview' is apt. In particular the section on philosophy of mathematics is extremely brief, and misses out many important positions and issues in contemporary philosophy of mathematics. A better survey appears in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philosophy-mathematics/>

There are also some strange passages, for example where Simpson suggests that Hilbert could have profited from examining Aristotle's distinction between potential and actual infinities. It is strange because Simpson does not say _how_ Hilbert's finitism would have benefited from this distinction, although it is certainly a historically important one. Hilbert's immediate influence in this regard was Cantor, who essentially rebelled against the dogma of his day which held strongly to the Aristotelian line (albeit with exceptions; for examples see [1]).

Cantor's set theory treated infinite collections as 'completed' infinities which could be studied and manipulated mathematically just as finite objects can be. However, in a sense he merely tweaked Aristotle's doctrine, pushing allowable cardinalities far into the transfinite, but stating that 'absolute' infinity (such as the mathematical universe as a whole) was unattainable. Michael Hallett's book _Cantorian Set Theory and Limitation of Size_ contains a good exposition of Cantor's position. A lecture on Cantor's philosophy was given last year at Bristol University by Leon Horsten, which you can download as an mp3. [2]

[1] <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/settheory-early/>

[2] [http://www.bris.ac.uk/philosophy/podcasts_html/Cantor_by_Leo...](http://www.bris.ac.uk/philosophy/podcasts_html/Cantor_by_Leon_Horsten.mp3)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've put this link in a web page and pointed you at that rather than submitting the PDF URL diectly, because I refuse to submit a PDF as a link, knowing that it would get scribd'd.

(edited for clarity)

<comment><USER3> Interesting: I just realized that with Chrome I no longer notice PDF links as any sort of problem, due to the built-in rendering engine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The best overview I've seen is Mathematics: Form and Function by Saunders Mac Lane: <http://www.amazon.com/dp/0387962174/>

It has the benefit of being written by one of the top mathematicians of the 20th century.

There are downloadable copies in the series of tubes.

<comment><USER5> Gödel, Escher, Bach is a bit more idiosyncratic, but covers some of the same topics (in an incredibly interesting way).</comment></comment>


A Single Div: a CSS drawing project - <AUTHOR> https://a.singlediv.com/ <comment><USER2> Wonderful! This made my day. I'm looking forward to learning more about Lynn Fisher and her art.</comment>


9M American men in prime working age can't find jobs. I'm one of them - <AUTHOR> http://www.vox.com/first-person/2016/12/19/13956666/unemployment-men-prime-working-age <comment><USER3> What caught my eye is the fact that the author is surrounded by well paid people in the same field but he is not leveraging the Network that is at his disposal because he doesn't want to tell them the truth. To me this is the key of the issue. Asking for help may bring you the help you need, while not asking at all definitely won't bring you anything.

<comment><USER4> The author acknowledges this paradox at the bottom of the article:

" _That's where the irony lies. I know that the way you get jobs is by getting out there and telling people you're looking. Using your acquaintances as a network and strengthening social connections is the best way to eventually land employment.

One day I'll work up the courage. For now, my desperation is a quiet one, hiding behind school soccer pickups and the glow of a computer screen. For now, it's still my secret._"

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> > That's when the distraction starts. I promise myself, just a quick glance at > Twitter to see what's going on in the world, and then I look up and it's > 1:15 in the afternoon. Twitter is my heroin — it's endless content, and if > I'm bored by one tweet, I just go on to the next one.

I think the danger of unlimited news is understated. The addiction is as bad as other forms of drugs. Ok, maybe not as bad as heroin, but I don't think we are far form that.

<comment><USER6> I think you're right.

Earlier this year, I read about the book _Deep Work_ in a comment thread on HN. I bought the book and read it pretty quickly (it's an easy read) and it really resonated with me.

The author, Cal Newport wrote a piece a couple of days ago on _digital minimalism_ that I think the author of the vox article should read:

[http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital- minimalism/](http://calnewport.com/blog/2016/12/18/on-digital-minimalism/)

My interpretation is that by compulsively refreshing Twitter (or HN), you're giving away your most valuable assets - time and attention. I'm working on spending my time more wisely and reading Deep Work is already paying off for me.

<comment><USER5> Just ordered deep work.

And still. Despite knowing the issue, we are here commenting on HN. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Honestly. If the author can't make it in SV due to having a rough ride they should look outside the area.

There are plenty of companies needing IT workers across the USA and moving to one of them sounds like a good way for him to get back on his feet.

<comment><USER8> He's not an engineer though, at least from what I read in the article. He wrote:

> I was still able to get customer support position quickly, learning skills > on the job

> My background in IT and customer support, both considered the bottom rung at > most tech companies, meant that I was expendable

So it seems he didn't really have higher qualifications, working in customer support, which is nowadays often outsourced and probably underpaid.

I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his education in any way in the time he was unemployed? The market is saturated with unqualified workers so it's really not so shocking that people are having hard time finding work.

<comment><USER9> > I feel sympathy for the author, but at the same time one thing that I miss > from the article is whether he tried to raise his qualifications in any way. > Did he try other market segments? Picked up any courses? Broadened his > education in any way in the time he was unemployed?

Raising qualifications usually costs money. He's tried when he had work. When he didn't it sounds like money was so tight and stress to high that he couldn't afford it and was focused on the immediate need to get another job. Strategic thinking and action is actually a bit of a luxury.

He wrote:

> Often, the jobs I could get were so disposable that I was never given > responsibilities that could help me grow into a promotion, no matter how > hard I pushed.

> Even though my wife works a steady job, money has been tight — we've gone > through periods where we've had only $30 to support a family of four for a > whole week. Slipping into neurotic budgeting mode has become a well- > rehearsed drill at this point. We cancel [all of the things]...

> [W]e're still living paycheck to paycheck. We've cashed out most of our > savings accounts, including retirement, and haven't been able to replenish > them.

> Every day involves endlessly scrolling through a list of jobs on Indeed.com > and applying here and there with full knowledge that 99 percent of the time, > I'll never hear back.

<comment><USER8> > Every day involves endlessly scrolling through a list of jobs on Indeed.com > and applying here and there with full knowledge that 99 percent of the time, > I'll never hear back.

That means he is literally wasting time, which he could use in other, more productive ways. Sorry, but if I would be 99 percent sure that something I do will bring me 0 benefits, I would stop and do something else.

If you don't have money to raise your qualifications you can still apply for unpaid practice in many places. It will not help with finances immediately, but will make looking for job easier afterwards.

<comment><USER9> > That means he is literally wasting time, which he could use in other, more > productive ways.

It's easy to judge someone from a distance.

<comment><USER10> He says exactly how this sounds. Seems this guy is not doing everything in his power to change his situation and he never really took step back and re- thinked his strategy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> To anyone recommending different approaches that could help this guy get a job - look at it from the other side.

There are 9 million unemployed men such as this one (according to the article). This doesn't mean that there are 9 million job openings out there, just waiting for someone with the right resume to show up. Sure, there are probably some, but mostly, this simply means there are 9 million more workers than jobs.

Educating the unemployed will only help individuals beat someone else in the competition of scoring a job, it won't help unemployment as a whole.

<comment><USER12> This guy openly admits he could find work, but doesn't due to his pride. There are lots of jobs out there that Americans (like this guy) "just won't do". He's in the bay area, I know that Handy and Uber are hiring. It won't be hard for him to find domestic labor for $12/hour.

After das trumpenfuhrer builds his wall and deports the illegals, there will be about 10M job openings.

Lets be realistic and acknowledge that this guy will refuse to take every single one of those 10M jobs.

<comment><USER13> Heck there will probably be 11M jobs, someone has to man the walls to repel the ladders and pour boiling oil in the tunnels.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> There is nothing embarrassing about manual work. When I was 17, at one point, I sold toilet paper, on the street, in a third world country, to get some cash for my PC. Various jobs netted me half the cash for my PC over 6 months. My parents could scrape for the rest.

486dx-120mhz.

Right now I'm in a comfortable seniority, renting a townhouse ( Toronto is too expensive to buy) and having a family. The c++ projects keep coming, I don't have to work with anything other than my fingers. Life is good.

Would I, if anything happens, go back to selling toilet paper or digging cannals to survive and strive? Without a doubt.

They raised me to believe there is no shame in manual work, and I still hold that true.

<comment><USER15> You had Patents at 17?! Kudos! ;)

My parents taught me the same way. I have worked many manual labor jobs, and I wouldn't blink an eye to go back if I had to. I wouldn't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must

<comment><USER16> _I wouldn 't enjoy it but I have a family to support and I do what I must_

What if you didn't have to support your family, since your wife could to that for you? Would you still feel the same drive to do so if it wasn't a "must"?

Personally I feel that that is the crux of the article. He knows he can get a job, but he also knows he doesn't need to, and the sort of jobs he could get won't make a huge difference to their bottom line, and he's having a hard time reconciling all these things to himself.

<comment><USER14> Yes, I agree with you.

Feeling "useful" is subjective but can influence one's self esteem a great deal.

On the other end, not having choices can also be motivational. For example, surviving on a single slice of pizza every day ( because it's tax free if it's a slice) will do wonders for motivation once you have a job.

So, it depends, happiness is subjective, but choices matter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I think this focus in corporate america and startups on "winner take all" and only hire elite is hurting the economy. Because we've allowed monopolies for so long and they've multiplied, it's great for companies and investors, horrible for the economy at large.

<comment><USER18> I agree. Capitalism is by far the best system, but its glory days (in the U.S.) have passed us by. I drove through the downtown area of my hometown this past weekend and tried to convince my wife that it was once a vibrant business district. When I was a kid in the 80's, every storefront was filled with local businesses bearing family names. Today there is only a collection of small- town dive bars, a tattoo shop and a gas station.

Of course there is a Target, Walmart, Home improvement center & large furniture store out on the highway that squeezed the life out of the family businesses a long time ago. It's really sad.

<comment><USER17> Scary part is single point of failure. the more centralized a system is the bigger the catastrophic failure is.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Here's the thing.

A: in 7 years he couldve gone back to school to learn something else B: most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed.

C: What's this idea of "stopped looking for work" ? And people say all of us minorities are the ones who want handouts. I've supported a family of 3 on $36k. In New York City. It wasn't easy but I had to do what I had to do.

<comment><USER20> " _...most smaller schools I know waive tuition if your unemployed._ "

Could you provide a few examples? I've never heard of such a thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Once you've reached that point, you can no longer afford to have pride. You have to do whatever it takes.

You have to reach out to everyone you know for a job. You have to accept people's pity and take whatever you can get.

If you don't have marketable skills, you need to switch to a low-ethics industry - It's less competitive. Find the jobs are considered wrong or unethical and which no one else wants to do - Those pay the best.

When I was going through a hard time, I worked for a gambling company and made a ton of money. Making money feels good.

My philosophy is that if you're a poor person with no savings, you shouldn't worry about how your work affects society; it's not your responsibility - <USER2> those who are wealthy worry about that; they are the only ones who actually CAN do something about that. You do whatever it takes to get the money into your bank account. If society gets worse, then you have to get worse with it.

If society degrades to the point that people are killing each other, you have to be prepared to fight for your survival.

</comment><comment><USER22> Lots of people ask, here and on other forums, things like: "Should I get/finish a CS(or other technical) degree? what's the point?"

If nothing else, it give you credentials to help avoid this sort of situation in the field you wish to work in.

Not many employers look for humanities majors to run their IT when there are many other applicants with credentials.

</comment><comment><USER23> I am sympathetic to the author. I know a few people who are very strong in the Humanities, are well-read, and have a mastery of the English language, but can't find a Humanities related job due to market saturation. My wife falls into this category. She would be hopeless at learning a "marketable" skill like HTML and JavaScript. Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent. I don't have any great ideas on what to tell them. There needs to be a better solution than go work as a cashier or go learn JavaScript.

<comment><USER24> > Asking these people to serve as a cashier is a waste of literary talent.

How is it a waste of literary talent? To be crass, if they're currently producing something society doesn't value/want to pay for, how is being a cashier a waste?

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I've been unemployed. It's tough but sometimes you have to let your vanities and pride take a hit and go for the job that's there.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've met a lot of people who "couldn't" find a job.

What they usually mean is "they can't find a job in the area they want, in the industry they want, doing the kind of work they want, at the salary they want, working for someone else."

This is a highly overconstrained search. If / when people loosen one or more of these constraints, they're opportunities open right up.

Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.

...but it doesn't always play out that way.

When I've needed work and my dream job isn't there, I've worked in garbage industries, on crappy projects, at places that are long commutes, etc., and I've been swamped with work for 25 years.

<comment><USER27> I've met a lot of managers who "couldn't" find anyone to hire.

What they usually mean is "they can't find an employee in the location they want, with the credentials they want, with the skills they want, at the salary they want, who's been trained by someone else."

This is a highly overconstrained search. If/when employers loosen one or more of these constraints, candidates show right up.

Like everyone, I prefer to get exactly what I want.

...but it doesn't always play out that way.

When I've needed staff and my dream candidate isn't there, I've hired imperfect people that I had to train, raise the rate I was willing to pay, put together attractive relocation packages, etc., and I've never had a problem hiring in 20 years as a manager.

(Both parties in an employment relationship may not have equal bargaining power, but I take issue with the implication that employers have no agency and workers no power.)

EDIT: A point I wanted to include or imply, but couldn't really shoehorn into this inversion, is that just as employers set bounds on what they offer employees, workers set bounds on what offers they accept. Sometimes it's rational to hold out for the right role through an extended period of unemployment (while focusing instead on finding the right role and acquiring or sharpening marketable skills) than to take underemployment that leaves you with no time for improving your position.

<comment><USER26> Wonderful counterpoint, and I entirely agree with you!

<comment><USER20> They're both true. Sometimes the supply and demand curves don't meet.

<comment><USER26> I think this is incorrect.

Supply and demand curves _ALWAYS_ meet. It's just that the point where they meet tells you what the market-clearing price is.

Sometimes this information makes one sad.

Managers who "can't hire good people" are sad because good people cost more than they want to pay.

Employees who "can't find a job" are sad because jobs that match their skills and other requirements pay less than they want to receive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This article scares me more than any horror movie ever has. I'm currently the sole provider for my family (thankfully, this will change in a few weeks), and even though I have a decently stable job that pays well. Losing it and not being able to get another is my worse nightmare (right after burning alive).

I know it shouldn't bother me this much. I have had 7 interviews in my life and I only failed 2 of them. One of them being back in high school when I applied to Pepsi for stocking shelves.

I know that if I would to ever actually end up in that kind of position, it would most likely be because of feared it so much that I made it happen to myself.

</comment><comment><USER29> The silver lining as I read this is how this guy even with all the trouble has remained married provided for his children all while living in one of the most expensive areas in the world.

And with offical unemployment at 4.5% as some else has mentioned jobs may not exist for these guys given the current economic structure. The demand is not there. Hopefully, no matter how imperfect, a large infrastructure investment happens and stimulates demand for prime age male workers.

</comment><comment><USER30> Well, HN never fails to to disappoint with the libertarian "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and "just learn how to code" rhetoric.

A slew of survivorship bias comments that seem to focus on the 1 sentence of the article, where the author is saying they do not consider a manual labor job to be practical, and neatly ignoring everything else.

Here are some things most commenters have willingly ignored from the comfort of their privileged ignorance of economics:

1\. Depending on your health, working a manual labor job at 47 may be a net negative value. Your body does not heal or recover that well from prolonged repetitive tasks, so working long days for a $12/hr wage may actually be a worse deal from not working at all. If this country had federal health care, then it might have made sense, but since we have the for-profit approach, it doesn't.

This can be true even if he's in perfect health right now.

2\. Ageism is more real than you think. Especially ageism when it comes to the resume and job history. Since he's not an engineer, the thought process of a potential employer goes like this: this guy is 47 and he hasn't held a management job once in his life, nor progressed beyond basic tech support and customer service. He also has a family, so he likely won't be willing to work extra hours for free and be as willing to be exploited as someone who is 23.

3\. Applying for shitty jobs is more costly than applying for higher paying jobs. The application process for a job is taking a certain amount of time regardless of the job itself, but the since the payoff for a better job is much higher, it makes sense to apply only for jobs that pay above a certain threshold. This is especially true when you consider he is providing some benefit at home as a stay at home dad (presumably). If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.

4\. The social stigma and not being able to network: Networking works great when you're a professional that is able to get job offers without networking. It helps you get better jobs or more interesting jobs, but it doesn't suddenly elevate you from a non-professional status (tech support + customer service) to the status of a professional with the corresponding salary and benefits. The only case where this work is very entrenched nepotism, where someone unqualified could get a job for which they are not suited with compensation higher than their "real" market rate.

Networking is mostly useless if you don't have the skills to back it up, like this guy.

5\. The twitter sentence. I'm honestly shocked at some of the vitriol from the HN community here. Do none of you ever procrastinate? If I'm not mistaken, it's working hours right now, but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN. If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or having some down time isn't unwarranted.

I could go on and on, but the gist of it is: show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once.

The fact that this person is one of 9 MILLION should maybe at least tell you that it's a systematic problem, and not just a problem of "not being willing to work any job for fear of embarrassment" For every one unwilling to do manual labor like this guy, there's another one who is (aka the other 4.5 million).

<comment><USER24> > Ageism is more real than you think.

Citation needed. Most of my coworkers are easily over 40. The best programmers I've met at most of my jobs are late forties/fifties. What studies are you using, rather than your hypothetical "though process" of the hypothetical employer?

> If he's providing $10,000 in value by staying at home, It will be 6x as > costly to apply for a $15,000 job than for a $40,000 job.

It will be 6x more costly to accept the 15k job than to accept the 40k job. The application costs are still the same. Also, by applying for the 15k job in your example, you are able to a) spend 10k to offset the value you bring at home or keep the 10k and let some chores remain undone and b) Keep 5k regardless.

> but most of you are finding the time to comment here, on HN.

We are not the ones who have to stretch 30 dollars a week to cover expenses for a family of four. If you have a steady job that doesn't frown too heavily on some procrastination, go ahead.

> If you had ever spent job hunting for a significant amount of time, you'd > know it's at least as mentally draining as any job, so getting distracted or > having some down time isn't unwarranted.

We're talking about degrees here. I'm procrastinating right now, but if I procrastinate too long I will end up unemployed, just like this guy. There's a difference between getting distracted and down time, and taking weeks off between interviews.

> show some goddamn compassion and maybe step outside of your bubble for once

From all accounts, this man who wrote the article is the one in the bubble. It's all about how he feels, how his friends will hurt his feelings if they figure out he's unemployed. He's the one that needs to step outside himself.

<comment><USER30> Cherry picking phrases out of my comment just like you cherry picked the article.

> Citation needed. Most of my coworkers are easily over 40. The best > programmers I've met at most of my jobs are late forties/fifties

Programmers. Programmers. Programmers.

This guy is not a programmer. He's not in a senior or even a middle role. Did your coworkers all start coding bootcamps and get their _junior_ positions at the age of 40 and over? If not, then your anecdata is equally as useless as the example you're trying to disprove.

> It will be 6x more costly to accept the 15k job than to accept the 40k job. > The application costs are still the same. Also, by applying for the 15k job > in your example, you are able to a) spend 10k to offset the value you bring > at home or keep the 10k and let some chores remain undone and b) Keep 5k > regardless.

Yes, and he'll have to work 40 hours. You have no idea what his utility preferences are, so suggesting to trade 40 hours/week of work for an additional 5k of compensation is laughable. Especially coming from someone in a position of privilege.

> We are not the ones who have to stretch 30 dollars a week to cover expenses > for a family of four. If you have a steady job that doesn't frown too > heavily on some procrastination, go ahead.

Irrelevant.

> From all accounts, this man who wrote the article is the one in the bubble. > It's all about how he feels, how his friends will hurt his feelings if they > figure out he's unemployed. He's the one that needs to step outside himself.

And by _all accounts_ you mean your account. Like I already said, someone in your position lacks the perspective to understand what it is to be in that position, not to mention the possible economic trade-offs available. So the value of your _account /opinion_ is null. And no, just because you worked a manual job at some point in your life doesn't qualify.

<comment><USER24> > Cherry picking phrases out of my comment just like you cherry picked the > article.

Wow, even when you set up straw men you can't knock them over.

> This guy is not a programmer.

This guy said ageism is big in the valley. He said nothing about roles.

> You have no idea what his utility preferences are, so suggesting to trade 40 > hours/week of work for an additional 5k of compensation is laughable.

Reading comprehension much? I said it doesn't cost him more to apply, just that it costs him more to accept.

> Irrelevant.

Ridiculous.

See how you need reasons for your opinions before they convince anybody? Maybe you should take some rhetorical courses before spewing nonsense.

> So the value of your account/opinion is null.

That's ridiculous. That absolutely negates all discourse, as you can simply write off somebody's thoughts/reasons as not relevant, because their situation is not exactly the same as yours.

You notice that the more examples your arguments can apply to, the weaker and sillier they sound?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> What I want to tell the author...

Buddy, you're in a rut. You're only 47 -- that means you've got 20-25 more years to work. If you do it right and earn the ability to retire. What happened yesterday is done. It's tomorrow you have to focus on. The only race is with yourself.

You're letting the world get you down, and there's no reason for that. Every day is a new day to reinvent yourself; learn a new skill, fix a character trait you don't like / or that isn't working. Humans are fluid, adaptable. But... if you don't constantly seek change by perpetually improving yourself, you'll have to deal with change imposed on you by others -- making your own choices is how you stay empowered.

Going to go through a bit more, point-by-point, and highlight why I feel this article is a cautionary tale.

> While I majored in the humanities, I was still able to get customer support > position quickly, learning skills on the job.

So why not learn to code? You lived through the dot-com boom... no reason why you couldn't pick up a book and get more into technology. You've been around technology longer than some startup CEOs have been alive. Stop standing still, there are plenty of online resources and courses on how to learn new skills.

> Budgeting has become a well-rehearsed drill

Everyone should budget. If you don't have money you need to. If you have money and you don't budget, well... you'll probably need to soon enough. Also... move. Plenty of places that are a lot cheaper than California.

> The job hunting process is pure drudgery

See previous point... you need to keep working on improving yourself. The job process is "drudgery" because the market is saying, "We don't want what you're selling, go get something else and sell that." Additionally, if you ever get to this point where you are feeling down and out and hopeless... why would anyone want to hire you? Take the time you need to collect yourself, come back fresh. Again... not so much a choice, you won't have success trying to apply for jobs if your head isn't in the game -- so either you choose to take the time to get better, or you continue in a rut.

> The days are long and boring

So, you have lots of time to learn new skills, new technology, new platforms, or just read books? My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, "Only boring people get bored." If you're depressed, and it sounds like you are, just focus on moving. Walk as far as you can in a day. Try to beat your high score the next day... until you feel like doing something else.

> There's social stigma

There's a stigma around saying, "I'm a failure, I'm a failure." Look at failure as an opportunity to learn. You talked about "being a consultant" and there's no reason why you can't be a consultant... fake it until you make it... all that. Maybe 1% of real SEO consultants know what they're doing... they all seem to make money off it (and even to be in that 1% doesn't take that much knowledge) -- an example of a non-technical job you can self-teach yourself into.

Seven years off... I have to think there's something going on here. Possible someone is enabling you to make shitty life choices that put you in a depression spiral? You have the time, you have the ability, you the resources (as most of them are free and just require a computer)... you just to start taking small steps. Learn HTML + CSS, learn SEO, learn JavaScript... learn how to install WordPress themes (literally no coding required), learn how to use HubSpot, or Google Analyitcs, or any of the huge assortment of tools that people can make a living off of using. And don't stop learning.

Set goals for yourself, and be wary of anyone who makes it easy to ignore those goals... Yes, it sucks to fail... and it's nice to have a warm bed to come home to -- win or lose... but when given the choice... skip the easy path (rut), go for the challenge -- that's how you learn and grow. The solution to your problems isn't on the easy path, you say you've been on that path for 7 years without success... time to try something new.

</comment><comment><USER32> > _There have been times where I've wondered if I should just get a temporary > service or manual labor job to help out with extra cash. But I'm worried > about getting stuck in a position with even less room for growth than my > previous jobs. And to be honest, I would be too humiliated. Our social > circle, made up of mostly well-paid tech workers and professionals, has no > idea how bad our situation has been. It would be exceptionally difficult to > work eight hours a day hoping with all my might that a neighbor or friend > wouldn't swing by to see me working the cash register or pumping gas._

Seriously? You're living in a house your mother gave you, and you've got two children to feed, and you don't want to work at a gas station because you'd be _embarrassed_?

Is this a weird cultural thing, where ten years of Russian upbringing followed by a decade plus in Texas, both rural in urban makes me incapable of feeling sympathy for a man who'd be too embarrassed to be seen feeding his family?

How is that more shameful than writing an article for the world, admitting that you're too scared of a bit of social stigma to get a temporary job to help you get by?

<comment><USER33> There are more practical considerations. Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn't find a job? The stigma is real and it's more than just pride. A fall from middle class to lower class can become permanent through nothing more than that stigma. With that comes a higher mortality rate across the board.

<comment><USER32> > _Would you want to hire a 40-year old programmer who had just spent the last > 3 months flipping burgers because he couldn 't find a job?_

Would you want to hire one who spent the last 3 months doing nothing because he couldn't find a job?

<comment><USER34> I would sooner hire a person who is flipping burgers to support his family than I would a guy who surfs twitter like this whiner. This guy sounds like he'd be a pain to work with, I mean if you can't find the humility in working a service job to support your family and help out, then what would you expect him to do in the work place if given an assignment he felt was below him.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> nikki-9696 "And to be honest, I would be too humiliated"

Oh, cry me a river. I put myself through school on retail. I am a programmer. If I lost this job, I'd be back to retail in a heartbeat while I worked to find a new IT job. I have a very hard time having sympathy for someone who goes on and on about how bad he has it while he's not willing to work a job that is "beneath" him. What classes are you taking? What are you doing to get more relevant? Github is free. Resources are free. Many classes are free. Get your StackOverflow on. Shit, I get offers from there frequently and all I have done is answer some questions.

Your kids are hungry because you're too good to get a job at a freaking grocery store??</comment>


Make ES6, Not Coffee - chris-at http://gofore.com/ohjelmistokehitys/make-es6-coffee/ <comment><AUTHOR> This article got up my nose a bit as it carries on about trivial things like semi-colons and curly braces. I don't really give a flying fuck if a language uses semi-colons or not (although being consistent about it would be nice).

The number one thing that drives me crazy in javascript is, you forget a var (or let or const) and you've created a global variable in your function. That's just totally screwed. Does ES6 fix this?

Also == vs ===.

Coffeescript basically generates javascript that is largely conformant to The Good Parts with a lot less room for stuffing it up.

It's nice that ES6 is introducing fat arrows and such so you don't have to do the mental reach-around that was necessary for doing OO in Javascript. Yes it's taking a lot of the nice things about Coffeescript and adding some more. But the above fundamental issues are the main reasons I hate writing javascript in the first place.

</rant></comment>


Ask HN: Should I leave a dev job where I'm paid for doing almost nothing? - <AUTHOR> I've been very dilemmatic about my current career situation and I'm hoping I can get some advice from the people here at HN.
I've joined my current company 3years ago as a web developer. By the end of my first year with the company, they decided to offshore most of their technical work. I was subsequently promoted to be the project manager to manage the offshore vendors.
On paper, I'm currently a project manager. But I'm really just a middleman between the internal users and the offshore vendors. On average, I only spend about 3 hours a day sending emails to vendors. I usually spend the rest of the hours doing my own things.
I've lots of freedom at managing my time too! Because I can have long lunch breaks, I've recently started moonlighting through a freelance assignment to teach programming during lunch time at places within 30mins distance from my office. It's crazy how I get to do my own things during office hours while still getting paid! I literally have zero stress and I'm so happy every day. It doesn't feel like a job at all!
However, lately, I've started to worry if this is going to hurt my technical career in the long run. I'm pretty sure my current job has nothing great to boast about at interviews when I've to move on to a new job. Although I still continue to learn newer tech on my own such as React, Angular, etc, it's worrying to wonder how much of these counts as real experiences when I really need to find a new job.
A part of me feels my current job is a rare find and I can't bear to just walk away. It feels silly to find a more demanding job just for "work experiences" when I can earn additional income through freelance gigs during office hours!
But another part of me is also telling myself I should leave this job asap for the long-term good.
Has anyone been through a job like this before? What path did you take and how did things turn out? Would you recommend that I stay at my current job for all the perks? <comment><USER2> I would argue you're managing a team of offshore developers to achieve business goals at a fraction of the cost. Which is a valuable skill that usually pays more than a junior / mid level programmer's salary.

But I've done work like this and understand it's not exactly most rewarding or fun (language barriers, early morning/late night calls etc...). So you should probably think about what you want to be doing down the road professionally. Do you want to be in more of a managerial role or do you want to be a senior developer?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've only been sending emails to offshore vendors about the things we have to do. I'm not sure if I'm truly managing a team of developers. The offshore vendor will write the specs, do everything from specifications to development to documentations.

All I was really doing was reviewing the work and then approve/reject their work.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure I want to be more of a managerial role or developer. I do however fear that I may lose my technical knowledge in my current job since I only have to send emails to offshore vendors. My current job does make me realise the "freedom" I get from a managerial role that I will probably not get from a developer role though. I did consider transiting to a managerial role when I'm closer to my 40s or 50s if a managerial role is really so much less demanding than a developer role. But again, I'm not sure if my current job is a true reflection of what a managerial role is because it just feels insanely easy and comfortable.

<comment><USER3> > I'm not sure if my current job is a true reflection of what a managerial > role is

A person I went to grade school with is a project manager with a tech company, and I forgot more about tech and the interwebz than she ever knew. She can't do maths and she can't code (not my strenghts either) but shit, I'd be stunned if she even knows what PR is or even ever heard of Brin or Page.... I'm guessing she has has other formidable skill sets but, ya know!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Look, if you really are extremely happy hang onto this job for dear life.

But if no one else will tell you, I will. This is a dead end job. It only takes a quick moment of someone noticing what you are up to (and frankly I'm shocked that your moonlighting isn't against your job agreement) for you to be out of work. Once that happens you are going to have to dance to tell a decent story of the value you added at this gig.

If this were me, I'd be _running_ for the exits.

<comment><USER5> > someone noticing what you are up to

You mean the job he was employed for, that they decided to outsource some of but continued to keep him on to manage?

I don't see the problem. The "value he added" was experience in the field and management of relations between the different stakeholders.

I bet he'll have to do some work when those outsourced coders come up with something that doesn't fit the bill, that's for sure.

<comment><USER6> I think the GP means the moonlighting while his employer thinks he's doing work for them.

<comment><USER5> So it would all be fine if he just sat and stared at the wall I suppose.

<comment><USER6> From most employers' perspective, probably yes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For you it's the way up. You already are a project manager and very effiecent one at that! Next step is management/head of department. So when you apply for your next job your experience will be project management.

I am being serious. What if what you do in three hours the other guy needs a day? What if you instead of ten times only send email once or twice and all is done? What if you convey your message that much better?

</comment><comment><USER8> You should always strive to have someone pay to make you better.

If you are in a job that is improving your skills that will get you to your next career milestone, great.

Doesn't sound like that is the case, so use the situation to your advantage. Use the spare time to gain practical experience in the skills you have identified for your career ambitions. ( Again, getting someone to pay you to get better, through freelance. )

Having an unchallenging job can make you feel like you are wasting away professionally if you don't have a plan for the future. Being able to say: I want to get job X, and am working to get necessary skills Y & Z, can make you feel better about your short and long term outlook.

</comment><comment><USER9> Sounds like you are de-motivated. If you leave this position you essentially lose your safety net and you need to ask yourself is it worth it. Find your passion, make it cashflow passively and then you can leave risk free.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have to admit that you are right about my fear of losing that safety net I have at my current job. It feels so safe and my life feels like so much easier thus happier.

Cash flow passively? Did you mean like starting a business or investment?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'd write a list. Come up with a strategy!

A strategy is holistic - it covers all the moving parts, which includes you, your mind and how it works, your preferences, age, responsibilities, expenses, dependents, what you are aiming for as well as external factors: the realities of this job (will you be made redundant because they see you are not busy?), freelancing (it's hard if it's your main source of income), the job market in your town, country and globally.

I'd write out some potential outcomes, bad and good and explore how you will feel about them.

And watch out for who owns the IP you create while you are moonlighting during your lunchbreak.

</comment><comment><USER3> Don't quit. You have a good title, and your staying current with new tech-- Plus you teach. So when you leave, and interview you tweak the time line... no one has to know you also teach during 9-5 hours and not at night and werkends (you go getting grinder you).

Schedule some inteviews, no crime there. Personally I LOVE the interview (but I'm not in tech), I interview at least once a year to stay sharp. I recently interviewed with my current employer for a position I would Never be seriously considered for, but my department director took the time due to my performance reviews.

</comment><comment><USER11> You post the question because you know that it's a privilege that won't last forever. What if the company eliminate the position in 3 months? What if that's going to take 3 years? How can your future interviewers measure your capabilities and contribution here?

Meanwhile this uncertainty would end up eating more time of yours.

If it was happening to myself, I would look for other opportunities within the company or outside of the company while the situation lasts.

A friend of mine told me that life is never easy. If it is, someone else must be taking care of things for you.

</comment><comment><USER12> Perhaps you are doing an excellent job? The best project managers I have had played Starcraft all day and left us developers alone so that we could work. Only meetings when there were problems, none of those "daily checkups."

"I literally have zero stress and I'm so happy every day."

And therefore you want to change your job? If I were you I would stop moonlighting during lunch breaks because that is probably in breach of your employment contract and grounds for dismissal.

</comment><comment><USER13> If you are enjoying it, which it sounds like you are, then I would stay and see if you can evolve your role into something even more.

An idea just based on what you wrote is pitch a community outreach program to your company where they sponsor a daily lunch class to help teach programming to those looking for a career change. I know many US states actually give large tax breaks to companies who do things like this.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think I enjoy the freedom and that little amount of work that I only need a few hours a day to complete. It's pretty easy most of the time. This is essentially what I love most about my current job.

I don't think my company is going to be happy to know that I'm actually moonlighting at lunch time. I haven't told any one at my company about my recent freelance gig teaching students programming during my lunch break.

I suspect I'm having all that freedom because it seems like nobody actually realise that my work can be done so easily.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Don't discount low stress levels. Those can be expensive.

</comment><comment><USER15> Even if you're only performing a few hours of actual labor per day, are you still available to be reached during some sort of standard office hours? Being available is a large part of a job.

</comment><comment><USER16> It sounds like you're doing a job of Product Manager/Business Analyst, and not Project Manager.

</comment><comment><USER17> You are doing great. Life goals.

Maybe you could write an E-book of how to get into your position. I would buy it.

<comment><USER10> How to find a sucker employer? It won't be easy because you need to find someone how is (i) hiring which implies (ii) they are making money and (iii) know how to run a business. The exception might be VC backed companies, but then it's the VC's who need to be the sucker, maybe you'll find them. The OP got lucky due to changes at an existing employer that were outside of his control.

The other option is a job where you are so good at it you can do it in 3 hours where it takes someone else 8, and the employer either doesn't care (rare) or you are working remotely so they can't see. Or maybe you can get the 8 down to 3 through outsourcing some of it or coming up with a good system.

I think it would be hard to systematically get a job like the OP, probably a lot more likely to get the same effect (eventually) by starting a business.

<comment><USER17> I think he definitely got his fair share of luck, but it's hard to negate that he has got some talent, no?

I've been a dev/lead dev for like 10 years, and I believe I've never had a single month of my career that I didn't have to work hard.

I need to work 10x(not productivity, but dedication) to sometimes get half- assed results in comparison to some peers that just slide over the problems and end up in a nice position.

<comment><USER10> > I think he definitely got his fair share of luck, but it's hard to negate > that he has got some talent, no?

It's hard to tell. Maybe. But most orgs don't care if you're a so called 10xer - they still want you to grind for 40h/w to avoid other staff asking "why does bob get to play golf at lunchtimes everyday" if nothing else.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Don't fall into the capitalist mindset that you're only doing enough when you're about to die from overwork. That's the propaganda that is shoveled to the working class while the bourgeoise "add value" from their private yachts.

At the end of the day, what is it that you enjoy? You should be trying to maximize that. I would do exactly the amount of work necessary to maximize that, and no more.

These people telling you you should run to a more tiring job seem to be suffering from some kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

If your sweet deal eventually ends, you seem like a smart guy, I'm sure you can come up with some good buzzwords for your next interview.

It's fine that some people want to be like that, but despite all the propaganda, the workaholic life is not for everyone. Maybe it is for you, maybe it isn't. You do seem to be slightly uncomfortable with your situation, so you need to decide for yourself.

Personally that would be close to my dream scenario, although I would be trying to set up auto-forwards or something so I could reduce the 3 hours per day. :-)</comment>


Amazon Yesterday Shipping - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA_gwzx39LQ&hd=1

<comment><USER2> This is essentially the birchbox or other "xxxbox" model...shipping irrelevant stuff and hoping to get some relevance, only except for the fact that you could not return</comment>


Are Music Startups Destined to Fail? - <AUTHOR> http://mashable.com/2010/10/17/imeem-music-startups/

<comment><USER2> I run a music "startup" that is in the "extremely saturated" space he is describing. We're now 7 years old, have 10 employees and have been profitable since 2005 with no VC.

There are many opportunities in the music startups, just as in other industries. Find a market need. Test your product, and iterate quickly. In our case, we found that by bundling a website builder with tools to promote and sell music is something that musicians want to pay for. We're not the only one, there are many profitable companies in this space.

<comment><USER3> If you don't mind, what's your startup's annual revenue?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The anti-music startup sentiment has been picking up steam lately. Its hard to argue against it being a difficult space to be in, but are we really ready to just turn our backs on innovation all together? Music _needs_ startups--more now than ever before. 1000s may fail (and probably already have!) but just one needs to hit it big in this space for us all to be better off.

When everyone else is saying "run away", its the brave(/stupid) who keep pushing forward that win in the end.

<comment><USER5> I think the secret to innovation in this domain is to find ways around the labels. We're happy to fund music startups that don't directly touch label music, e.g. Songkick (which focuses on concerts) and thesixtyone (which focuses on indy music).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have seen time and time again friends trying to innovate in the music space getting screwed over due to the monopoly powers granted via copyright. When there are 4 record labels that are able to act in tandem and that together hold the rights to 90% of the music released on labels in the US, they are bound to hold people back.

Artists don't have to sign away their rights to labels, but unfortunately that has not changed at the pace that many had hoped it would. The real innovation needed here is a way for artists to be able to go it alone and break away from the control of the labels.

</comment><comment><USER7> I think record companies would be making a lot more money right now if they'd embraced Napster and started to compete with their own websites. But that's hindsight.

</comment><comment><USER8> The music industry isn't going anywhere. The successful startups related to the music industry will be the one's which adapt and change with a growing market

<comment><USER9> I disagree, music isn't going anywhere, but the music industry is fundamentally a publishing industry, and they face the same problems that all publishers do, in that the internet makes the problems of distribution and marketing that they solve much less difficult.

I don't really know what that will mean in terms of startups, but it seems like there would be money to be made exploiting these changing in circumstances while the bigger companies are fumbling about wondering what is happening.</comment></comment>


Microsoft will acquire Skype - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.skype.com/en/2011/05/microsoft_will_acquire_skype.html <comment><USER2> There's already a discussion on this here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2530963></comment>


Interactive California Unemployment Map - <AUTHOR> http://www.sacbee.com/1232/rich_media/1698037.html <comment><USER2> Clever - but the transition between the colours is a bit deceptive.

At different points different areas will snap from "dark green" to "light red" - which is really only an incremental change on the scale, but looks very stark as a transition.

<comment><USER3> Agreed, it really should be something like

* Dark greed good

* Light green not so good

* Light Red Bad

* Dark Red really bad

<comment><USER4> "dark greed" != good

(sorry! could not resist)

Such an odd distribution of 21 - 30 % unemployment counties. I guess if California were an island, living in a "landlocked" county would mean especially bad news.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I agree that the color choices aren't great, but the simplicity of the design is quite nice. (So many of them end up being Flashy nightmares.) I'd like to see more info graphics like this one, which communicate trends in a clear new way.

</comment><comment><USER6> The seasonal changes are interesting. More work in the valley during the summer. More work at the ski areas in the winter.

</comment><comment><USER7> What do they do just north of SF?

<comment><USER8> Mostly farmland, scattered small towns. A lot of wineries and grape farms. World class restaurants, a lot of tourism.</comment></comment>


Federal Reserve: "Within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed" - <AUTHOR> http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2009/02/10/52272/within-24-hours-the-world-economy-would-have-collapsed/?source=rss <comment><USER2> Already posted: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=475581>

</comment><comment><USER3> Now that would have been a story worth telling your grandkids about!

<comment><USER4> How would we do that after the entire human race was wiped out by not being able to use their credit cards?

<comment><USER5> The Ultimate Darwin's Award.</comment></comment></comment>


Google embraces, extends, and extinguishes - <AUTHOR> http://sircmpwn.github.io/2018/05/03/Google-embraces-extends-extinguishes.html <comment><USER2> Duplicate of: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16993715](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16993715)

</comment><comment><USER3> it also bundles too. try getting rid of youtube from your android phone.</comment>


Job loss due to AI – How bad is it going to be? - <AUTHOR> https://www.skynettoday.com/editorials/ai-automation-job-loss <comment><USER2> Bad for those who are unable (and/or unwilling) to adapt. Not as bad for those who will learn the skills of the future and convince employers to hire and retain them.

There used to be so many jobs that were in existence and now have been automated away-- dockyard and factory line workers (robotic arms), ice merchants (refrigerators), analog technicians (digital).

It is a sad reality that though these workers are capable of re-skilling, many employers will not see fit to hire them.

That's the problem that needs to change really, and it's entirely due to human biases.</comment>


How a Battery Cut Microsoft Datacenter Costs by a Quarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.theplatform.net/2015/03/13/how-this-battery-cut-microsoft-datacenter-costs-by-a-quarter/ <comment><USER2> > _In a typical UPS backup scenario in a normal datacenter, the incoming power > is converted from AC to DC so the battery can be charged, then converted > back to AC coming out of the battery to be distributed out to the power > distribution units, where it is stepped down to the 120 volts where the > servers consume it. By putting the batteries in the servers, Microsoft can > do one AC to DC conversion and distribute 380 volts DC directly to the Open > Cloud Server power supplies and then step it down to 12 volts for the server > and storage nodes._

This is a huge point of efficiency that's been missed for a very long time, mostly because it's right along the border between the datacenter provider and the server customer. The datacenter traditionally agrees to provide filtered 120/240v AC.

Converting the power loses efficiency. And we convert the power 4 times. They may be regaining about a 6.25% loss from each conversion, my math is probably incorrect.

Of course, all parties could agree to change the standard, and provide clean, filtered 12V DC to servers, and redesign PSUs to accept this input instead. But then they wouldn't be wall-pluggable anymore.

<comment><USER3> There already is a DC standard, it's for telecom and it uses 48V. You can buy PSU's off the shelf for many systems.

48V is better than 12 because the wiring gauge is smaller and line loss is more efficient.

<comment><USER4> -48V.

I'm trying to find out why negative is used, but the answers seem to vary a lot...

<comment><USER5> I've always been under the impression it was corrosion related.

<comment><USER6> This is my understanding as well. I believe the effect is called cathodic protection[1].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathodic_protection)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I remember reading about Google doing this years ago. I've been disappointed ever since that Dell et al haven't adopted a similar option for their commodity hardware.

<comment><USER8> I worked for an enterprise hardware company in the 2010 era whose secret sauce involves doing such, albeit on a more local scale. When I joined Google, they were doing this all over. Facebook is doing this, at the rack level. Microsoft is touting their six years behind technology, and the scary thing is, they're still five years ahead of the rest of the industry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Slightly off-topic: in one gig we are running buildfarm and CI on dozens of cheap notebooks (mostly ACER and Lenovo). And enjoying this effect of local power backup, which is very useful in our office building, because power is very unstable. When power goes down usual rack-mounted server might work tens of minutes off a UPS supply while these little bastards work for a couple of hours more, just slightly slower.

</comment><comment><USER10> Hasn't Google been doing this for a very long time?

<comment><USER11> Yes, it was one of their "secret sauce" things that they kept top secret for a long time. Fundamentally, if you change the question from "putting computers into data centers" to "how can I build a building sized computer?" it changes the way you think. Microsoft has been somewhat late to that particular party, both Facebook (perhaps with some Google knowledge "leakage") and Amazon have done a good job of internalizing this view point.

It scares the crap out of data center providers because they know they can't really innovate like this effectively. I tried to get Equinex to consider building Open Compute racks in a different style of co-location setup but never got anywhere with them.

<comment><USER8> Google was in this particular paradigm well before Facebook, and I'm fairly certain I know precisely who was involved in leaking the knowledge.

<comment><USER11> A lot of engineers have passed through Google. The interesting thing about the Bay Area at least as this sort of porous sponge works both ways, people come from competitors, people go too competitors, they all carry a point of view and their own view on solving the problems at hand.

I am fortunate that I spent a few years in the platforms group and got a good look at how Google did what they did, and with that perspective have watched ideas in data center design emerge and flow. As the article points out Google does publish interesting bits of data, which lead to certain conclusions. And many of the same things that drove Google to do what it did, become the more likely answer when you own the entire data center (or better yet build it from scratch). I sat through a presentation of the big Ebay data center project in Utah and noted how they were coming up with the same answers to some of the same problems.

Because of that I doubt any one person is largely responsible there. There seems to have been a lot of cross pollination.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> So the function is for 4 of those batteries to run the power supply for 1 minute?

<comment><USER13> Yep. After a minute or so, either the datacenter's backup generators have started, or something has gone _seriously_ wrong and power won't be restored for quite a while.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> video [http://youtu.be/31dwMAg-Hx4?t=330](http://youtu.be/31dwMAg-Hx4?t=330)

slides [http://www.opencompute.org/assets/OCP-Summit-V- Slides/Mainst...](http://www.opencompute.org/assets/OCP-Summit-V- Slides/Mainstage/OCP-MSFT-Kushagra.pdf)

specs [http://www.opencompute.org/wiki/Server/SpecsAndDesigns#Speci...](http://www.opencompute.org/wiki/Server/SpecsAndDesigns#Specifications_heading_to_the_IC)

 _The LES shall provide sufficient ride through capacity to maintain proper PSU output for 35 seconds (+ /\- 500ms) minimum plus walk-in period of no less than 10 seconds (+/\- 500ms). The power supply shall meet the reliability and operating life with drop outs at a maximum power of 1600W for 5 seconds then reducing to 1425W for the remainder of the drop out. The power supply shall be capable of operating at greater than 1425W to 1600W continuous drop out but reliability and operating life of the battery are not guaranteed._

</comment><comment> mark-r 3 questions: 1\. What's the lifetime of an individual battery? 2\. Are the batteries replaceable? 3\. Will we ever see this tech in consumer level PC power supplies? If we did, would it be of any use in an environment without backup generators?

<comment><USER15> 1.) Judging from their cost graph [0] it seems to be about 3-4 (definitely less than 5). I'm guessing that the points where the costs increase is due to batteries wearing out and having to be replaced.

2.) Probably? The cost bumps in 1 don't make much sense otherwise.

3.) Hard to tell, in a home system there isn't such a huge cost savings to be had with a battery. As for usefulness it's a really short term battery but it'd be good enough to let the system power-down/suspend gracefully instead of losing power immediately. That niche is pretty well served by UPSs for people who care though and everyone else doesn't care already. It might find a small niche for consumers but it won't be ubiquitous.

[0] [http://www.theplatform.net/wp- content/uploads/2015/03/open-c...](http://www.theplatform.net/wp- content/uploads/2015/03/open-compute-microsoft-les-benefits.jpg)

<comment> mark-r Now that I think about it, a power supply that held power just long enough to go into hibernation automatically would be very useful. There would need to be some signalling into the OS though.

<comment><USER16> We already have support for this in every OS, it's no different than a laptop or existing UPSs. What sucks is that to work with a generic ATX motherboard without a special header to hook into the best externally accessible bus to put it on is probably going to be USB. It's not like you would need to plug it in outside the case either, there's usually a spare USB header anyways.

But hypothetically, APC could make an ATX UPS today that would be compatible with most ATX motherboards and leverage most of their existing software and drivers to do so.

<comment> mark-r I just worked on a PC this weekend, and all the internal USB connectors went to sockets on the front panel. But it should be possible to put a socket on the back of the power supply and include a 1 foot cable. This is doable!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I do not understand the new dupe detection system. The same user posted the same link 10 hours ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10368978](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10368978)

<comment><USER18> When there wasn't uptake on an interesting article the mods contact the original poster and ask them to repost it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> $0.25 doesn't really seem like that much of a savings...

<comment><USER20> :-)</comment></comment>


How to use the new iframe tabs to build better Facebook pages - <AUTHOR> http://www.webdigi.co.uk/blog/2011/build-better-facebook-pages-with-iframe-tabs/

<comment><USER2> > 2) Add youtube videos and other music players

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw this was MySpace

<comment><USER3> Excellent, Facebook can turn into the GeoMyAOLSpace it was always destined to be, and the rest of the internet can continue unmolested.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Maybe it should be the other way around, maybe your homepage should be able to get "social" elements.</comment>