Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup? - <AUTHOR> Just hired a new biz dev person. Over the weekend, he sent some messages that were inappropriate to one of my existing employees.
He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused)
My employee handled it well and didn't let it get out of hand. I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.
The employee came to me in confidence (I'm one of the founders) and told me she really doesn't want to cause problems with the team. I'm really upset by this guy's behaviour and I want to fire him immediately. If I do, she'll know and it will be a violation of the trust she placed in me.
So what do I do HN? Do I fire him? Kick his ass? Get them in a room with a HR rep and talk it out? Hold a "how to recognize sexual harassment seminar"?
The employee in question has made it clear that it's not a big deal and she knows how to deal with it, but fact is she shouldn't have to deal with it and I want to make it clear that these things aren't acceptable in the company we're building. <comment><USER3> Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer _LAWYER_.

I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threatened employment practices lawsuit, and your lawyers will sigh and say "OK, settle for $250,000. You can choose to fight it but the odds are not in your favor."

I get that you feel this may cause problems for your innocent employee. If it helps you contextualize this, maybe think of it less in terms of "Our departing employee has transgressed against our innocent employee, who let me into her confidence about that" and more in terms of "Our departing employee demonstrated judgement flagrantly incompatible with professional employment."

Would you be worried about this if he had been embezzling? "I'm just telling you on an FYI basis boss but I don't want to cause social issues." That's not really how we deal with embezzlement, right. You embezzle, you get fired. Immediately. The embezzlement is not a crime against the person who discovers the embezzlement. They're welcome to an opinion on what the best course of action is, but regardless of what that opinion is, the course of action will be a swift firing.

As to messaging to the rest of the company, again lawyer lawyer lawyer, but "X made comments of a sexual nature to another employee. As a consequence, we fired him. If you have questions or concerns, speak to me later. Moving on."

<comment><USER4> Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question.

With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's been rubuked, hopefully he got the point and will settle down. If he doesn't, then I you do have a problem, but the reaction here seems to be like he's just ran over your dog.

<comment><USER5> In the US, almost all employment is at-will. There's no probationary period and any one can be let go at any time without notice for any reason (or no reason) except for a certain list of protected things (gender, race, marital status, and the like).

Also, from the description, it seems like the conversation was way more than just "would you like to get a drink" and the guy already didn't back down.

<comment><USER6> > from the description, it seems like

Exactly, nothing that any HN observer can come to any conclusion with.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> As someone who's done a lot of hiring and firing, the part that stands out most to me is not the sexual harassment part, but the fact that he was just hired and already is causing problems.

Normal people tend to be cautious and respectful at first. By immidiately jumping in and pushing boundaries, this person is demonstrating that he doesn't care about your company, he doesn't care what you or anybody there thinks about him, and he doesn't care if he breaks things and gets fired.

I would fire him as soon as I could without the lawyers getting up in arms. People like this tend to be very destructive. The smart ones will wreak havoc in your organization for years before you figure it out.

<comment><USER8> I second this sentiment. Especially someone in a biz-dev role. Can you imagine if he crossed the line like this with a customer? It's not something a budding business wants to ever deal with.

Someone who feels casually about this kind of misconduct with another employee - in my mind is someone who would feel casually about lying on an expense report and other things you just don't expect people to do.

I suspect the lawyers would have you fire for no cause, give a good reference, support unemployment benefits, and potentially offer a small departure package. None of that is really necessary - when confronted with the facts, nobody in their right mind is going to say "I didn't deserve to be fired. I'm going to sue!" But in the end, protecting your business is your highest priority.

I also get the sense that this is your real desire.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again.

It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It was all handled very discreetly.

Please do get HR involved. Please do not listen to the people here who are advising you to nuke the man from orbit, it's the only way. Doing that will only deepen the problem. Men and women need to learn to interact at work. Promoting fear and loathing will not further that larger goal.

You get his side. You do some training. If it continues to be a problem, sure, fire him. But please do not use final solution/terrorist tactics. This only hurts women in the long run. Men need to learn better manners. Cutting their nuts off for a faux pas doesn't teach them that. It promotes a hostile environment between the genders. It doesn't create a more civil environment.

<comment><USER10> Why will firing him worsen the problem? I would fire this guy immediately.

> Men and women need to learn to interact at work.

Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

<comment><USER11> > Men should not need sensitivity training to interact with women at work.

I know it feels good to take zero tolerance policies, and we all do it (why do you think we have so many people in prison in this country).

But..maybe he is some kid in his early- or mid-20's and has very little workplace experience outside of small startups working mostly with other males his age. He may have never had the opportunity to understand why this kind of behavior makes a workplace uncomfortable for those on the receiving end (and others as well).

Firing him is obviously one way to teach that lesson, and will not only lose him this job but possibly make it difficult to find another. Giving him an opportunity to learn it through training is another.

I do, though, think it's probably unfair to make an outcast of every young male who isn't born with a deep understanding of why you need to keep your attraction to women restrained once you start a grown-up job, just because you were born that way. At that point in your life (if I'm remembering correctly, it's been quite a while ;), most of your energy and focus has been in trying to attract whatever you are attracted to, and there are often no blunt cues indicating "hey, this situation is different from what you are used to".

As patio11 said, though, lawyer first if you want to keep the business alive.

<comment><USER10> I have no sympathy for the "boys will be boys" side of this argument. I am a male in my early 20's so am familiar with the mindset. Sure maybe zero tolerance is a bit far, but every woman I know has a story like this. Every one has had to deflect some strange workplace advance or some uncomfortable proposition by a superior. The problem is magnified 10 fold when the workplace is so heavily skewed male (as it is in tech). Retroactive sensitivity training isn't going to fix this problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I agree with Patrick: you should terminate the employee, immediately. Try to understand how lucky you just got here. Here's a simple tweak to the story you told that creates a nightmare scenario: the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP.

I disagree with Patrick on the mechanics, subject to one condition:

If, like a sane person, you consulted a lawyer _before you began hiring people_ , and so you're offering a standard employee agreement --- the kind every competent firm in the industry offers --- then the answer here is:

Just fire, and move on.

I don't know that "with cause" adds much.

The principle here is pretty straightforward. You got lucky this time. A new hire crossed a serious line, and the person they irritated came to you directly with a complaint, rather than through their lawyer. You will not get lucky next time. And next time, there will be a history that you'll be accountable for.

<comment><USER13> Can you translate to human why " the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP." is a nightmare scenario. If she is on a PIP (just checked out what that means), she is on a final warning basically?

<comment><USER12> She's someone you're trying to manage out of the company. Maybe you were harsher on her performance metrics than you needed to be, because in the back of your head, getting rid of someone who complained about sexual harassment was easier than dealing with the problem. Presto: colorable sexual harassment and/or retaliation claim.

<comment><USER14> How does firing the accused harasser clear the path to PIP firing? It still looks just as much as retaliation for pushing another employee out.

<comment><USER12> It doesn't. That's the point: get rid of sexual harassment risks before they can create problems like this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Not a lawyer. When the female employee says she doesn't want to cause trouble, it just means that, if you are going to do something about this situation, then you better own it. Make this a problem between you and the employee who acted inappropriately. i.e. if/when he demonstrates understandable reasons for acting the way he did, you don't turn this around on her.

<comment><USER16> Respectfully, that's not the employee's decision to make.

<comment><USER17> What do you mean?

<comment><USER18> While it's good to respect her wishes, the outcome of downplaying the problem could affect many more people. There's the cultural impact of leading people believing that sexual harassment isn't taken seriously, and the very real problem that leaving it alone could lead to it happening again which might result in a key employee leaving (or suing, or initiating criminal proceedings). At the very least there needs to be some sort of written warning to act as evidence that the business took it seriously.

<comment><USER17> Yes, but darkerside wasn't recommending downplaying the problem, but "owning it". I don't see how peterep's post is a reply to that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Lawyer is good advice.

If it's not acceptable in the company then you should tell him to leave.

If you don't you poison your culture.

The employee now knows that she will still need to "deal with" harassment at this organization. Her outlook on the company culture will be forever changed. And she will share this experience with her friends and potential recruits forever.

Likewise the harasser will know that there are not serious consequences for unacceptable behavior and will continue to "get away with" things. He will repeat the behavior among his friends and towards future staff. They may not have the confidence to report it.

This is one of the root causes of the gender imbalance in the work place.

Harassment is never ok.

This needs to be explicit and you should work hard to build a team where there is complete trust that violations will not occur.

</comment><comment><USER20> 1\. While you need a lawyer for advice and to cover your ass, lawyers can't lead. Lawyers offer advice and dot i's. Weak leaders delegate their responsibilities to lawyers.

2\. You need to assess your culture. Is this one bad apple or is this something larger. The work hard, party hard, live in the office startup culture can be a breeding ground for this. Not that you can't have this environment and succeed, but you need to understand it and put checks and safeguards in place. One option is to designate a sexual harassment rep and make sure everybody knows this person's roll and that they can talk to them, possibly anonymously.

3\. Talk to your female employee and let her know you have to do something. You can't ignore it as that effects the company and thus everyone. Get her opinion about how much of a problem his continued presence in the office will be. She may not want him to be fired as she may feel partially responsible (not saying she is in any way, but we don't know how she'll feel).

4\. Talk to the bizdev employee. Document the meeting and any outcomes or remediation. Is this a problem of just being junior and not yet having the ability to separate barroom behavior from the work place. Why did you hire this person? Are those qualities still there and does this person have potential? Only you know.

Talk to a lawyer, but remember, you are the leader, they are not. Walk through the steps and make the tough decision about what is best for everyone. Reactionary firings can be almost as negative on your culture (not your liability though) as doing nothing. Be the type of leader who talks to their people and tries to come to a decision that is best for everyone. Don't be the leader who makes reactionary decisions behind closed doors.

Also, don't talk about 'kicking someones ass'. As a leader, this is almost as bad as calling someone a MILF. Step back from your emotions. After a decade in the military, part of it working in legal, I've seen a lot worse: rape, child porn, attempted murder, grand theft, fraud. While obnoxious, calling someone MILF is pretty far down on the scale. This makes it tougher in some ways since firing isn't automatically the only response.

</comment><comment><USER21> Ok everything about this situation aside, it feels like a bold move to post about this publicly on HN, particularly when you're concerned about trust issues. I honestly can't believe I don't see any other comments along these lines.

You run a startup. A lot of people read HN in general, but I have to assume startup employees are _even more_ likely to read HN. As such, it doesn't feel crazy that one or both of these employees might see this considering it's sitting on the front page and doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

So...there is a lot of commentary here about how you should handle this situation, but in my opinion, posting pretty specific details about it publicly was among the very worst first moves you could make.

<comment><USER22> I have been thinking about Yishan-style CEOs for a while now, though sexual harassment is probably a special case here. BTW, I hasn't done much research on sexual harassment laws, but so far I don't think they are as bad as anti- discrimination laws. This is partly because sexual harassment often do leave evidence behind. This don't mean they are worth the costs though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> One thing to remember if you keep him on and he continues this behavior you might not find out about it for a while. People won't always speak out and tell you. What happens when he starts harassing your new hires? If he is new to the company and already this bold what happens in a year or two?

</comment><comment><USER24> When an employee makes you aware of a possible occurrence of sexual harassment, your obligation as the employer is to investigate and take appropriate action.

Tell the employee that your company isn't one that believes this kind of behavior is acceptable, tell her you're going to talk to a lawyer, tell her you need to investigate this, and that she isn't causing trouble and you're glad she brought this to your attention.

Get an HR professional, lawyer or not, and deal with this immediately.

Let me assure you, when she said she doesn't want to cause trouble, she didn't mean she wanted you to do nothing. It means she wants you to do something, and she doesn't want to be blamed, she doesn't want the office to talk about it, and she wants you to own it.

If you do nothing, one day, if she (or someone else) ever decides to file a lawsuit for sexual harassment and fostering a hostile work environment against your company, you saying "but she told me she didn't want to cause any trouble" is not an excuse to sit idly by.

</comment><comment><USER25> Please get someone from HR involved. Do not immediately fire the employee as this could lead to severe financial problems for you. Despite the peasant with pitchforks in this comment section, wrongful termination / paying unemployment / litigation, etc. is also something you may want to avoid. This employee of yours may not be aware of the policy or the law and is possibly entitled to progressive disciplinary action based on your employment policies (and I disagree with those below that said sexual harassment was somehow equivalent to murder and embezzlement - WTF?). From what I read sexual harassment laws might not even apply to your business if you have fewer than so many employees, I am not a lawyer or an HR professional, so don't listen to me.

The employee did something wrong, no sensible person doubts that, but not necessarily something that allows you to fire them without consequences for you. You need to speak to HR and then if necessary your legal representation.

<comment><USER26> Who are all these people who think a small startup has a HR department?

<comment><USER25> Really? I'm pretty sure my advice has merit even if you don't have any HR professionals on full-time staff, just like 'lawyer up' has merit if you don't have a lawyer on staff. It really isn't hard to piece together.

If you have no HR staff or lawyer on staff and have a question requiring their expertise, you can hire consultants or lawyers to assist you with your problem.

If you are a really small start up and can't afford to do any of this, then you should read the law yourself and make your own conclusions.

If you don't have time to make your own conclusions you should just do whatever you want.

How many contingencies do I need to assume here? I'm giving advice on the Internet.

<comment><USER26> With respect, and I'm not saying this applies to you, but I'm poking fun at the people throughout this thread who keep saying that these incidents should be reported to HR, or we should get HR involved, or some combination.

In my opinion, these are comments from people sitting comfortably behind their chair at insert Fortune 500 company here, who have no idea what it's like to work at or run a startup. The suggestion that said startup should go out and hire an HR consultant is equally ridiculous.

That's not to say "lawyer up" isn't good advice, because I think it is, but startups routinely hire lawyers; they do not routinely hire HR people.

My startup was almost 4 years old and well past a B round before we ended up hiring our first HR person.

So, to be clear, what I'm saying is if the problem is bad enough, you should consult a lawyer. If it isn't, you should handle it in-house with common sense and perhaps some advice from advisors/lawyers. At no point do I think it's reasonable to advise someone to go out and hire an HR consultant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> First of all, talk to a lawyer.

One thing that is really overlooked about harassment is that it's not about a single event. Realize a few things:

* She's saying that it's ok because in the real world most companies will protect the man over the woman. Women who want to get ahead learn to never put her neck out too far. All too often, clearly bad behavior will result in "training" for the guy. (After all, she was a hottie asking for it, am I right?) Do you really want accept an apology for her that it's not a big deal that she was harassed at work?

* Workplace harassment happens because most guys know they _can_ get away with it. More importantly: if this was the line cause a stir, the he'll just be more subtle next time. It's boundary testing that is no different from a four-year-old. It _will_ get around, because this guy will associate with others who don't mind his behavior. Do you really want to be known for that type of environment?

* Once the workplace accepts an event, it becomes that much harder to rationalize dealing with equal or less events. You'll have people actually arguing that Henry wasn't punished when asked Sally out, why are you punishing me? And, he could have valid precedent. Do you really want to be dealing with the fine lines between behaviors?

Fundamentally, sexual harassment erodes trust. If you have a workplace that has clear line between humor and personal relations, that creates teams who understand and care about each other: you can joke about sexual innuendo, personal problems, etc. When someone is unhappy with something, he or she feels safe to speak up. Encourage people being humble and considerate. If harassment is allowed, at best it just causes drama. At worst, it causes power problems that kill trust, brings in more people who causes problems, and the real possibility that someone could own your start up by lawsuit.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'm not familiar with US customs, so little confused here: is asking your co- worker out is considered a sexual harassment? Or is it the "milf" part?

<comment><USER29> Not sure about asking a co-worker out, but calling someone a MILF (Mom I'd Like to Fuck) sounds like sexual harrassment to me.

<comment><USER30> I upvoted your comment. Calling someone you work with and barely know a milf is an asinine move. That said though - she might have led him on when she agreed to move the conversation to whatsapp.

<comment><USER17> According to what was told, they moved the conversation to Whatsapp before he asked her to hang out. What would she be leading him on about?

<comment><USER31> if i said "can we move this conversation somewhere more private, and outside work" and you said "yes" is there an implication of some consent?

could the guy have been imagining that her agreeing to move the convo was her approval, and anything further was her playing hard to get?

that said, the magic words "sure as friends in work context" should have been a cease and desist to end any further bright ideas.

<comment><USER17> That specific wording ("somewhere more private") might imply acceptance of sexual advances, but nowhere do we see those words in the original post, and I find it hard to believe that one would say "yes" to that if one wasn't interested in being asked out.

<comment><USER31> if a coworker asks me for my personal phone number or email address, something is up. there is a reason they arent using official company provided communication. asking for my phone number sounds like explicit "move this off the record."

<comment><USER17> Yes, and that might be because they want you to make a move on them, or it might be - like it very recently happened to me - that they just wanted to ask you for help on a side project. I can definitely tell you that I wasn't leading my coworker on when I sent him my personal email address, and I find it weird that it would be someone's only assumption.

<comment><USER30> If instead of asking you to help out with a project they would've asked you out, would you consider this to be an inappropriate/sexual harassment situation though?

<comment><USER17> No, but neither did she. If they kept pressing after being turned down, yes, probably.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I'm going to address how to handle the employee who came to you in confidence.

You need to sit down with her--before you do anything--and inform her you need to do something and why. Tell her you understand she came to you in confidence, but this behavior can not be tolerated. She might be able to brush it off, but the next employee the biz dev person harasses might not be so understanding and file a sexual harassment lawsuit against the company.

And if it's discovered YOU knew of his behavior and did nothing.....

</comment><comment><USER33> > I want to fire him immediately. If I do, she'll know and it will be a > violation of the trust she placed in me.

Beyond creating a potential legal liability-- the biz dev guy demonstrated poor decision quality, bad peer relationships, and questionable business acumen. All cause for performance dismissal. He caused the true breach of trust. You can leave your female employee entirely out of any discussions.

</comment><comment><USER34> Don't fire without talking first. I'm not saying your innocent employee is lying but try to get both sites and possibly some proof (the messages).

/ EDIT: I missed the part where he said that he saw the evidence - sorry.

Why I'm saying this is because I was in a similar situation once. Employee X didn't like me without me knowing. At a party (alcohol involved) we talked a little (normal things, nothing sexually, personal, private or anything like it) and that was it. On the next day I got asked into the office and have been told that multiple people filed a sexual harassment claim against me. No names who that could have been, no proof, but I was guilty.

They told me that I either have to leave the company or send a public (anonymous) apology for the bad things I did. (They didn't even tell me the things I did)

Until today I can still only guess who it was and it perplexes me that "multiple people" filed that claim against me. After talking to my better friend coworkers it seems like all people that could have filed that were friends with that one employee X that didn't like me.

Long story short, I still don't believe I did anything that could have been even remotely near sexual harassment but I'm feeling horrible. Maybe the worst memory in my entire career. Every time there is a harassment training I get reminded of what happened and that there are indeed people out there that call me a "sexual harasser".

</comment><comment><USER35> I think the reaction of this thread is a little over the top. Lets calm down and be professional and adult before we convict someone based on scant information. I know it is fun to rail on someone but firing a person is not a minor issue and could potentially destroy someone's career.

The information we are presented with is minimal. This is perfectly understandable but it means that no one in this thread has anything like enough detail or context to make any judgement on firing someone.

What if the man was simply making a pass at someone he liked but unfortunately was clumsy and inept at doing so? Should it never be possible for a man to ask a woman from work out on a date? What if the woman has a reputation of being a social justice warrior that hates men and loves any excuse to complain about any perceived slight. We have no idea on the ages or marital statuses of the two people. What if he is a married middle aged man with three kids and she is a young intern? That makes it sound a lot more creepy. What if they are both single and the same age and seem to have the same hobbies? Does that change things a little? You cannot judge this scenario based on a couple of sentences from the OP.

My point is not to defend him, I have no idea if he is a predatory creep or a good guy that made a simple mistake. But then neither does anyone else here. Get a lawyer so you can follow a sensible policy of sitting down with the accused and ask about his side of the story. Depending on the response determines your next action.

<comment><USER36> While normally I'd agree with your point, the OP gave a pretty clear description of what the employee did.

>He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she refused)

>I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.

It doesn't get any less ambiguous than that.

<comment><USER37> "Milf" is where he crossed the line. Otherwise it's just clumsy courting. But "milf" is sexual harassment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Consult your lawyer.

I've attended a few sexual harassment training's over the years. There are no clear cut rules. In fact, in my first training, harassment couldn't occur until the other sex said "stop, no, etc." In the last one I attended, things aren't so clear cut, and it seems like the lawyers have made sexual harassment so unclear that the only ones who can determine it are the lawyers themselves.

It doesn't matter that it was after work, using a non-work communication medium. It still could be or maybe its not harassment.

You are going to have to talk with her and let her know that you have to act upon this. You don't know what is going to happen. At a bare minimum, something is going to his HR file. At worse, a lawsuit is going to happen.

</comment><comment><USER39> Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and what is not acceptable in a business. Get training yourself so you know the law and how to handle this in the future.

I disagree with the chorus of "Fire him now!" in the other comments; startups hire a lot of folks straight out of college, so there's a significant chance that the employee in question has never been informed of what is, and is not, appropriate when they want to pursue a romance with someone from the office. What may be acceptable in a college classroom is very different from what is acceptable in an office.

Mistakes happen, words and body language which were not included in the chat log may have been misconstrued... you have one side of the story right now. Get both sides, and give the opportunity for the man to learn.

Involving a lawyer to ensure that you're on the right side of the law is, of course, a damned good idea. Especially if you end up deciding that you want to go down the road of firing.

<comment><USER40> If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where it's valid for this company.

<comment><USER41> Amen. Everyone knows; it's just a kid getting out of punishment to say otherwise. Readers might be impressed at just how resistant some people are to learning what's offensive: they can learn calculus, botanical names, database management, but miraculously just never figure out that hitting on colleagues is problematic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> It's baffling/hilarious/concerning to me that there are multiple commenters saying they're not able to see the harassment and asking for clarification.

<comment><USER43> And all the people saying, "Well, give him another chance. Everyone makes mistakes and maybe he can learn from his..." as if this kind of "mistake" is a normal one that anybody might make. I think it says a lot about the commenters' attitudes towards their female coworkers.

<comment><USER9> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666857](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666857)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> You need to listen to guy's side of story. When I first came to this country, people told me never ever date anyone from work. I was focused on my career and too scared to mess up. I met some wonderful people at work, we made friendships, and some are still friends.

But sadly I took that advice too closely to my heart. Many of my crushes ended up dating someone else at work or outside. Some even found their life partners at work. It seemed only I followed this advice. As introvert, it was hard for me to meet people outside of work context.

The guy probably had no clue that he was making her uncomfortable. He needs training, not a life time of loneliness.

</comment><comment><USER45> As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved. She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this employee's attitude needing adjustment for him to fit in long-term. She sounds like a very thoughtful person.

I think whatever solution you decide, you should keep her in the loop. You can't violate her trust if you are transparent about her with what you are doing.

As for the solution, it is easy to want to fire this employee. However, I think it would be the wrong thing to do. Many people are immature and the tech industry has given many people the wrong impression about how much of a party certain roles (sales) are. I'm absolutely not condoning his behavior, but based on the female employee coming to you in confidence and "not wanting to cause problems" it sounds like she doesn't believe he should be terminated for this.

What I think you should do is immediately document this incident. Document it well, and file it in his HR file. Tell your female employee that his behavior is unacceptable, and you are going to speak to him with HR about acceptable and unacceptable communication between employees.

Then you watch and see if he improves, and maintains an acceptable level of respect and decency while hitting his quota and contributing to the company's success. If he does not to this, then you have plenty of cause to eliminate him.

<comment><USER12> What the victim wants isn't relevant to the decision of how to handle the harasser. The reason the harasser should be fired is that they are creating egregious risk for the company.

All that has to change in this story to create a nightmare scenario is for this bizdev person to have harassed someone who was already on a PIP, or who is about to be placed on one, or someone who has a preexisting grievance with the company.

There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

<comment><USER46> Good points. To add to this - biz dev is outwardly representing your company in ways other employees don't. Do you want this person interacting with potential partners or clients in this manner?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> 1\. Talk to your attorney, yes.

2\. Probably: fire this guy. This isnt someone you want at your company. When you fire him, you wont announce to the rest of the company why. And you can have a conversation with the victim employee to let them know why you did it: you don't want abusive people on the team, and that you value every employee and also have to look out for everyone and the entire business. The employee will respect you more for taking action, trust me.

</comment><comment><USER48> It sounds like you already made the decision: you call one your 'employee', but not the other.

<comment><USER49> Should you make business decisions based on your feelings? In fact, should you ever make decisions in response to feelings if they're not yours in the first place (since it's her thing)?

It's a nice catch, I hadn't picked up on it, but she wants it differently. Just because you don't like that doesn't make it right to act on it as employer.

I'm not saying OP should do anything, I'm also not saying they should do nothing, I don't know. I'm just observing that this reasoning might not be the best.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Just to play devil's advocate: how hard is it to spoof whatsapp/slack messages if one wanted to get someone fired?

If he denies that he sent the messages, or says he sent messages but the content has been altered where could the employer go then? "She's trying to get me sacked because ...". Where could you go from there to prove he committed an offense against propriety/policy?

Also, a perhaps more realistic issue is the move to WhatsApp could be seen as a move to personal interaction away from business interaction - if the employee alleged to have committed sexual harassment called her a milf once in a private conversation that was not a work context do they deserve to be fired?

Did he stop when asked, doesn't that mean it's not harassment? Still could be inappropriate and ultimate lead to firing but to me harassment is an ongoing series of incidents.

<comment><USER51> He called her a milf to her face. That's completely unacceptable.

She was clear when she said "as friends at work". It wouldn't have been harassment if he hadn't been so crude and suggestive. if he'd just said "hey, want to have dinner some time?" Then it would have been a little forward, but not harassment. He didn't. He said "You're a mom I'd like to fuck".

It doesn't have to be ongoing to be harassment. Once you've declared "I'm the kind of guy that'll call you a milf to your face after only knowing you a short time"... all bets are off. Any time you're alone with him, you're going to feel uncomfortable. And I guarantee you, that kind of guy is not going to be a perfect angel the rest of the time. He clearly has messed up ideas of what is appropriate to say to women.

<comment><USER52> That is her side of the story, which does not have be _necessarily_ true.

<comment><USER53> milfseriously stated that he saw the conversation/evidence

<comment><USER52> Sorry, that statement is too little to justify the tarring and feathering mentality prevailing in this thread.

If there was a seriously inappropriate conduct then that should be certainly dealt with (harassing colleagues is not acceptable - whether they are male or female), but so far only the "MILF" statement leaves a bad taste.

Also, all digital evidence can be more or less easily faked. I am not saying that this DID happen in this case, I am saying it could have.

The downvoting and lynch mob attitude people exhibit here in this thread is rather worrying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I'm baffled by this thread.

Yes it might not be appropriate and yes it might necessitate action, but fire him immediately when the "milf" handled it, ended it, and the situation was finished? He didn't push it further than his perception of her comfort level.

Furthermore, the term "MILF" has transcended its literal meaning. It doesn't, at this stage in time, literally mean "I want to fuck you". It's a normal Pop Culture term now which is synonymous with "attractive", is in every tabloid, on every reality show, blah blah. I'm not saying that it was appropriate to say it to her, but it isn't the aggressive, invasive term that is being suggested in this thread.

I can only guess that this occurred in the US; you all make it sound like a seriously stressful environment to be in.

<comment><USER55> Picture yourself, as an owner of the company, explaining to a jury how "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" doesn't constitute a hostile environment in the course of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Maybe with a jury that includes someone your grandmother's age. And maybe not as a result of this particular conversation, but the next time it happens.

<comment><USER54> I'm not saying the owner should not be concerned at all. He should clearly log this incident and follow up at a later date to ensure that similar incidents haven't continued. If the female worker is satisfied that they haven't continued then there's no way that a court would construe this as sexual harassment, ever.

Also, "milf" is in standard printed dictionaries at this stage. I haven't ever used the term, but I understand that people simply use it as a colloquial noun and don't tend to use it as a literal proposal. I'm confused that so many people in the thread seem to think this.

<comment><USER56> Are there any other acronyms around sexual intent that are considered benign intact but offensive when mentally unpacked? I can't think of any. Because when you unpack it the original meaning becomes clear.

It's hard to imagine someone dignified not taking offense to being called a MILF, because regardless of what was intended you just told the person they are a mom you'd like to fuck, to their face.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> People in this thread asking about "whats wrong with calling someone a milf" really feed into the tech is sexist stereotype

</comment><comment><USER58> Nip this in the bud right now! This isn't the guy's first attempt at harassment (there is no other word for it) and it will not be his last. If you have a no-tolerance clause in your employee manual, fire the guy. If not, a serious discussion is in order and, depending upon how it goes, either the guy is immediately fired or is placed on double secret probation for some period of time. Explain that if this happens again, he's gone, immediately. No appeal. No reprieve.

Seriously, you need to protect your company and yourself from these things. A seemingly minor event can go nuclear on you quicker than you could ever believe.

<comment><USER12> You don't need a clause in your employment contract to enable you to fire someone for unwelcome sexual advances. What you need is the standard employment contract that establishes employees have been hired at-will and without any implied contracts to the contrary. You must have that document no matter what --- it's what makes it safe for you to fire anyone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> I am not a lawyer, but:

Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment (at least not from my European view of things). Certainly unprofessional but not quite sexually harassing. As far as I understand, the transgressions were "only" verbal and there was no other inappropriate behaviour.

Here's what I would do: Collect _all_ the facts and evidence about the BD person's inappropriate behaviour. This may involve talking to your employee about this again. Then take some quiet hours in the evening to review all of the facts. If, and only if, you come to the conclusion that the BD person's behaviour clearly qualifies as sexual harassment, get lawyers involved (and probably eventually fire).

If on the other hand you come to the conclusion that the comments were inappropriate but not sexually harassing, have a private and very serious and straight talk with your BD person about the events and that there is 0 tolerance for that behaviour, then move on. And of course fire the guy immediately if it ever happens again.

<comment><USER60> > Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events > that would qualify as sexual harassment

Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to set aside the sexually harassing part.

<comment><USER61> Excuse me, but where was it?

Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH.

It depends on point of view.

<comment><USER62> There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.

<comment><USER63> We don't know if the mentioned person's mother tongue is English. They may well not know that MILF is mother I like to f*ck. I'm from a non English speaking country and I can say that I haven't met anybody who'd know that. I myself didn't know that until I read a Wikipedia article. The OP should first try to see if this is the case, otherwise fire them. Some are bad at flirting, and sometimes you say silly things. We shouldn't be this generous at calling everything sexual harassment.

<comment><USER64> If that is the case, would you, not knowing the meaning of a word, use that word in a professional environment? And also, does not understanding the meaning of the word excuse it's use?

<comment><USER63> I said he may have mistaken the meaning of the word. They don't have footnotes on porn sites deciphering milf, bdsm, cfnm etc. Sometimes we say silly things in foreign languages. And also in our mother tongues. It's not like we check every word we use in the dictionary.

<comment><USER65> Helpful Hint: If the only place you see a word is on porn sites, it's probably not a good thing to call a coworker.

<comment><USER63> Oh thank you I didn't know that!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> > Over the weekend, he sent some messages that were inappropriate ... on > Whatsapp

So, not during working hours, not using work-related tools, he send some inappropriate messages. It's not a big deal.

> these things aren't acceptable in the company we're building.

Sure. But this conversation did not happen in the company, not during work hours, and not using work tools. You were made privy of a very personal conversation happening between adults outside of work.

> The employee came to me in confidence

And you posted about it in great detail on Hacker News, making it a topic of water cooler conversation of about 80% of startups world-wide.

> she'll know and it will be a violation of the trust she placed in me

Exactly.

> So what do I do HN?

Preferably nothing at all. Don't make a big deal about what your employees do in their spare time.

> she shouldn't have to deal with it

She shouldn't have confided in you, because you can't seem to handle it. This dude is poison now. He may as well be fired. And your employee made it a business issue, which is a big thorny issue. You shouldn't have to deal with it, but now you do.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER67> As a female startup founder I can't tell you this emphatically enough: fire him. Your judgement and opinion of this dude will always be clouded by this incident and it opens you up to a lawsuit both things you do not want to deal with, fire him.

</comment><comment><USER68> Very rarely do biz owners regret firing people too early - it's usually done months too late. Don't wait for this to happen a second time and for your valuable long term employees to leave because you didn't take action.

Don't let cancerous employees into your organization. Don't allow him to harass another one of your employees.

Fire him.

</comment><comment><USER69> * Immediate dismissal - the language isn't in any kind of gray zone - completely inappropriate. This person will damage your company if you keep them on. * Make sure they're not able to make a scene. No access to email or the premises at the point of dismissal. You don't want them causing further damage to the team. * Make it clear the issue is wholly between you and them, this is your action, decision and responsibility.

</comment><comment><USER70> Have you a sexual harassment policy? Did they agree to it when they took the job?

Fire that person immediately, it's a clear breach. You need to show your employees that you will support them when something like this happens.

This may not be the first time this has happened, might only be the first time that you have heard about it. You need to be proactive in creating a safe work environment and as the founder that is your responsibility.

<comment><USER71> > Have you a sexual harassment policy? Did they agree to it when they took the > job?

The United States of America have a sexual harassment policy. They also have theft and murder policies. This isn't a matter of company policy, although covering up these things may be.

<comment><USER72> And yet, companies have sexual harassment policies that employees agree to - probably because the harassment is more prevalent than murder in the workplace.

By having them agree to the policy, it makes it easier to settle the dispute.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> It was very interesting for me to observe my own reaction to this thread.

When I first read what you wrote, I though "fire. immediately." I think I was just angry that someone would be so off the mark when they are a new hire. And the milf thing made me genuinely angry.

But as that anger passed I realized how much of a gross overreaction that is. People pursue workplace romance all the time. The thing that sucks about approaching someone is when it is welcome, you are golden, and when it is unwelcome, you are a creep. It is incredibly hard to get through an unwelcome approach without any awkwardness.

So really, this guy needs to learn manners, and to chill out.

Unless he continually repeats the behavior, I don't see why there's any real long term problem.

<comment><USER74> "Romance"? Are you serious??? There's nothing the slightest bit romantic about what this guy did.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> What's this guy going to say to one of your business partners/customers? Not that your employees don't matter but if he can't control himself around other employees he can't do it anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER76> This guy should be fired both for harassment and incompetence. First of all, this guy is supposed to be biz dev. We are not talking about a rude comment by an engineer, people skills and sensitivity/understanding of business etiquette is part of his job. Two, this is not a "faux pas". He did not say "your dress looks hot" or "will you go out with me" or any number of less than polite come ons that people use outside of a work context. Instead he made an explicit comment to someone he barely knows. This shows clear lack of judgement.

</comment><comment><USER77> Hire slow, fire fast.

He's new. If he's still in a probationary period - either by statute or contractually - get rid of him. If he's not, and he's a brand new employee, consider adding wording to future contracts regarding a probationary period.

Obviously, still talk to a lawyer.

</comment><comment><USER78> You're in a bit of a quandry. He should be go, but it's not going to be easy.

If you fire him for this instance, you could be sued for wrongful termination, and in which case you would have to produce those whatsapp messages, and convince your employee that they were harmful.

> He asked to take the conversation off Slack (moved to Whatsapp) and asked if > they could hang out (she said, "sure as friends in work context"), referred > to her as a milf (ugh...), and asked if he could tell her a secret (she > refused)

My interpretation was this person used Slack (work resource) to ask a coworker to switch to Whatsapp (non-work resource), during the weekend (non-company time). He proceeded to make inappropriate comments on whatsapp.

I'm not a lawyer, but from limited research, it seems that a few sets of inappropriate text messages (of which you dont approve of, but the recipient doesn't mind) sent over the weekend does not constitute workplace sexual harassment.

The employee has said "it's not a big deal." which even though you don't like it, means it's somewhat out of your hands.

The quandry is, the bizdev person is probably a bad fit for your company. You should get rid of him, but would need something more substantial in order to standup to a wrongful termination suit.

</comment><comment><USER79> Also it is worth saying that an employee coming to a manager / founder / owner to report a problem "in confidence" is not the same as you not being able to do anything about it. You need to manage that person as well so that they know that they've a) done the right thing b) aren't at fault for whatever the consequences are and c) that you / the company do care about them.

Even if you weren't to fire the person (and as a brand new hire firing seems a better option) then you would need to provide specifics when having the conversations that would follow. Mainly because all you have so far is an allegation, making your mind up (not the same as considering options) beforehand is not good.

Regardless of whether you fire the employee or not the key thing is to prepare for the conversation. If you're a founder speak to your co-founder(s), if you're a manager don't just speak with HR and have them in the room for the meeting but prepare with them. Have your opening statement well rehearsed, consider different conversational flows and how you might react to them. This isn't a thing to do on the fly.

</comment><comment><USER80> I spend a good deal of my time working with high powered men on how to actually develop intimacy with themselves and with women as well as training companies and organizations on how to build cultures of intimacy, vulnerability and strength.

For many high performing men, their shadow side is that they view themselves and thus, their world as objects.

That your culture manifested this sort of dynamic to me is a weak signal about deeper issues in your organization, leadership and overall company. From my vantage point, the least of your problems is how to protect yourself from the fallout of this situation legally and you may want to take a deeper look at the root cause of this, lest you begin a game of cultural wack-a-mole, firing away manifestations of a deeper cultural issue.

I don't mean this to come off as blaming you, but rather, there is an element of you in all of this that you do have control over -- some of that will be in how you handle the situation and the other will be in your understanding of the dynamics inside of you that led to you co-creating it.

Happy to gift you a culture session if you want to discuss it more deeply.

</comment><comment><USER81> If the person is new employee, presumably you have a probation period clause in the contract, and at the end you can state that it's just not working out, protecting both the accuser and and the accused from knowing circumstance?

You absolutely have to get rid of that type of person, it's already moved outside of work context to a personal context (WhatsApp), which implies that the author of the messages is not comfortable talking about what he's talking about in the context of a work environment because he knows it is wrong, and because he is willing to take that risk, it signals a danger.

You should speak to a lawyer about removing the person from the company in a quiet way (which I think is what the accuser would prefer to protect her complaint) – since he is new, it's generally easier than ridding the company of a long-standing employee. Probation clauses are common in the United Kingdom, I'm not sure about the U.S. – so this advice might be awfully inaccurate.

If you have seen proof, the accused needs to be removed. He is toxic if you know for sure of the correct circumstance.

</comment><comment><USER82> I've had a similar experience at a start up I once worked at.

We hired our first network administrator to replace developers like me who had been doing the same sort of job.

The day that he started the job, we received an email that someone using our gateway IP address had posted to Usenet [this was a while back] the IP and root password of some other company's public webserver, with a message to the effect that people should "f--- it up". The email also stated that the root password seemed to work, and we verified that.

We quickly worked out that the server was our new employee's previous workplace, and we sacked him and walked him out _on the spot_. He didn't receive any pay or benefits. We also documented everything on paper in case there was some legal problem (which didn't happen, of course, but you never know with some people).

So my advice is:

* Document everything. On real, physical paper. Sign and date each page.

* Fire them, now.

<comment><USER9> Well, that's a nice story, but I don't see how an attempt at intentional malicious sabotage of their previous employer is "similar" to this.

<comment><USER82> It's not a "story", but a real thing that happened to me. It's similar because the OP needs to fire the employee now, and document everything. And maybe get a lawyer too.

<comment><USER9> I meant _story_ as in _anecdote,_ not as in _tall tale._

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> I might be missing the obvious here, but why did she confide in you if she didn't want something done? Unless you two are drinking buddies and she was just unburdening herself, you have to assume that she is asking for your help - and the double speak is an attempt to emotionally protect herself from the inevitable.

</comment><comment><USER84> Do nothing is not an option (not that you seem to consider that an option), because even if she truly is fine, the next employee he harasses may not be.

An HR rep is, frankly, usually pointless, unless you have high quality HR with specialized training. They do serve as a verifying party though.

Me? I'd interview this guy (not alone) to see if I thought he could learn (as atrocious as his behavior reportedly is, I've been very surprised by what lessons have simply never been communicated). If you don't have full confidence he can improve, he's a liability to you and should go.

I'd also lead this off by talking with the female employee about what you want to do - It's not just about her (although she certainly deserves respect), but about what kind of a company you want to have - which employees are protected and which ones are not. Hopefully she'll understand.

</comment><comment><USER85> IMHO, harassment is only the tip of the problem. Team members should respect each other's right to pursuit of happiness. If you draw the line here, the MILF comment is so out of line, there is really no question about what to do, only how to do it.

</comment><comment><USER86> I've been through this kind of thing. It's very unpleasant, frightening even. Hang in there!

From your critical incident report here there was no inappropriate physical contact or attempted coercion between these two people. Make sure that's correct. If your senior HR person or some other executive of your company is experienced with this (meaning: has done it before) have her/him conduct an investigation. If you don't have experience in house get your lawyer to do the investigation. Get it done; don't let it sit.

Base your decision about disciplining or terminating the guy with bad boundaries on the results of the investigation. Ask your investigator how to confront him, and follow that advice. As hard as it is to imagine right how, anti-harrassment discipline is a dish best served cold, not hot. It's also best served promptly.

You need to do the anti-harassment seminar. You need to let your whole team know this kind of stuff is not condoned or ignored in your company, because it's not who you are. Your lawyer's office can probably provide the seminar. (Our lawyers did a great job with our seminar.)

You need to establish a policy about harassment if you don't already have one. There are plenty of good template policies around. If you work with a payroll service they probably have one you can use. And you need to require all your people to take the seminar. It should be part of your onboarding process.

If you sack this guy don't worry about a wrongful termination suit. Do what's right for your business. You'll have the investigation paperwork, and the state commission on such matters will very likely look at it and say "case closed," if the guy bothers to go after you.

Also don't worry about people in your company worrying about who's going to get whacked next. Just make it clear that respect, civilized behavior, and good interpersonal boundaries are a vital part of your company culture. You could even go so far as to say "no a __holes. "

Good luck. But you won't need luck. You'll just need the strength to get through it, which you have.

</comment><comment><USER87> Fire him, give no reason.

A dumbass like that can easily cause major problems down the line

</comment><comment><USER88> Sexual harassment is always a big deal due to it being illegal according to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - [https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs- sex.cfm](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm)

You will need to insure your company, employees and yourself are legally protected by visiting an attorney as soon as possible. As it appears you do not have the standard company guidelines and procedures in place for investigating and terminating employees found violating law. Your attorney should be able to help you draft the proper paperwork and procedures to accomplish this in your company policy and employee training.

When you talk with your attorney there may be more things that are required to do legally (filing a police report, filing charges, having the employee harassed file charges if she wants too, etc.). The attorney will be able to walk you through everything you need to do. As it may not be a big deal to your employee now, but that could change down the road, especially if it unfortunately picks up again or escalates. Now would be the best time to resolve the issue while it is only at the texting phase, as things would go downhill for your entire business quick if it were to escalate in the near future.

I hope you are able to get this sorted quickly as it is very important to have something like this in a well known zero tolerance policy that everyone knows about on their first day on the job during their on boarding process.

</comment><comment><USER89> > she really doesn't want to cause problem

> made it clear that it's not a big deal and she knows how to deal with it

Last year I watched an emotionally strong friend reduced to a terrified sobbing mess before he gathered the courage to go to his leadership about a sexual harassment issue with his direct superior. I know you won't take her grace for granted but please consider that how she really feels may be different than what she says in order to maintain professionalism.

</comment><comment><USER90> Most humans are dicks. That is my general rule when dealing with these things because it is true. But, should you do anything about it? From what I can tell this didn't happen during business hours or at work. This was a conversation between 2 adults where one was a dick. I would thank her for the heads up and do what she wishes and stay out of it. If it does become a problem or shows up at work then document the hell out of it and lawyer up.

</comment><comment><USER91> HR manager here who has dealt with this exact situation a number of times. Retaining counsel for consult is a good idea but do not be surprised if they tell you that unless it's specifically in your policy that this is prohibited, nothing here is likely actionable.

In fact the "ideal" scenario is that two employees interact, one rejects/rebuffs/corrects the other for harassing or inappropriate remarks and it does not continue. IF it continues you have something to work with, at present it does not sound like you do. Thank your employee for telling you and for speaking up, and ask her to keep you updated.

Sexual harassment, like other workplace harassment issues, generally has to be considered "pervasive and severe" to be something with teeth, and yes the court has generally very high standards for what constitutes both of those things.

Talk to your HR rep and do not burn up a ton of cash on lawyers just yet. Talk to them about this as a constellation of fit issues for the role, see if term is needed for all of the above. Make plans to hold a sexual harassment and bullying training anyway for all EEs. Let HR help you with this, seriously, we deal with it all the time.

</comment><comment><USER92> INAL, but here's what I think

> I'm really upset by this guy's _behaviour_ and I want to fire him > immediately.

If you are in the US, which that u in behavior suggest that you might not be...

If you have an established HR process you have to follow it. Otherwise fire him discreetly and then let people that hes moved on in a few days. Don't tell either him or the employee that came to you that it has anything to do with their interaction and if he asks specifically during the firing process turn the tables on him and feign unawareness and ask what the hell he is talking about. I wouldn't out her or acknowledge that you are aware of the incident to him at all. If the employee who confided in you asks if that why he was fired, just tell her that its a confidential matter and you really can't go into it. I live and work in at will state and wouldn't bother to lawyer up if I went this route (though it wouldn't be a bad idea), but I would wait til I was calm enough to leak that he had done something really upsetting.

If you want to make an example out of him (or keep him around) you definitely need to lawyer up.

</comment><comment><USER93> Yeah talk to a lawyer first, listen to all of the people that say talk to a lawyer.

Actually it is up to her to file a complaint with you or HR. If she does not want to file a complaint, just add it to the employee's annual review that he used inappropriate words with another employee. If he is still on probation as a new employee it could violate that probation and you could fire him for that.

You have to ask yourself how valuable is this new employee to your team and company? Can he get some sensitivity training to learn not to speak that way to a female employee? If he is very skilled and valuable you might want to suggest the sensitivity training for him, if not he broke probation and can be fired for it.

You don't have to use the employee's name that he sexually harassed. In fact if you are in a state that has a no fault clause in the hiring and firing, you could fire him without giving a reason. Just say something like his position was removed due to budget problems, then create a new position to replace it with a different name.

</comment><comment><USER94> Everybody saying "lawyer", ignore, that's expensive and bad advice, you already know what the lawyer is going to say, lawyers are incredibly cautious and not particularly flexible or business savvy in helping you, all you'll get is a bill and no help with anything except what you already know couched in terms of a lot of statements designed for future "I told you so"s

Fire: probably, but not because this infraction was so bad or impossible to deal with (the victim herself said so) but because the guy appears to be a bad egg, just really bad judgement and other employees or customers might not be as adept as she is at dealing with it. So, unless his contract somehow protects him, or he is God's Gift to Business Development and your company is down the tubes without him (in which case you'll still need to figure out a way to head-off/handle his future infractions (promote her above him?)), you don't need to spend more time dealing with this.

</comment><comment><USER95> Are you using a co-employer? Like Insperity?

If so take it to them immediately.

If not welcome to lawyer hell.

This is one great things about using a co-employer, HR in a bottle.

</comment><comment> nerd-fight Agree with Patrick on your next steps. So go do that.

My breakdown of the reasons to terminate:

1\. New employee did not follow broadly understood/legal courtship protocol with female colleague. [e.g.: On tinder/okcupid/etc., you can try your luck with "DTF?" or "You're a lovely MILF." Doing the same with a work colleague (regardless of whether on the clock or not) is broadly accepted to be harassment. Why? Because the parties are both colleagues who have to work together. On okcupid, a recipient of "DTF?" can immediately block the sender. Not so easy to do a colleague. Our legal system protects workers from harassment. "MILF" isn't just a query about going out for coffee. It is a GOTO jump over many protocol stages without ACKs from recipient.

2\. New employee is either ignorant of work-based courtship protocol, new employee actively chose to disregard it, or perhaps new employee was drunk during the exchange. It doesn't really matter. Either way, the guy does not meet the standards to work in a professionally run company.

3\. By so flagrantly violating a commonly understood protocol [workplace courtship] very early in his employment, the guy is demonstrating to his boss that he is not worthy of trust and responsibility. Terminate him.

As for those few of you who think the guy should be given a break, this is corporate worker bee 101 stuff. Sure he is sexually interested in a colleague. There is no problem with that. The thing that is for very good reasons, your fellow workers are protected from harassment. Dating a fellow worker requires running a very different courtship protocol than picking up someone in a bar or over tinder.

Unless you feel qualified to run corporate-dating-protocol from start to finish (what will you do post hook-up/break-up?), please consider the advice of our forebears: don't dip your pen in the company ink.

</comment><comment><USER96> First of all, the most important thing: talk to a lawyer. The real ones that demand money, not random people from the internet. Sexual harassment is a particularly nasty thing, because no matter what you do, judges will always be biased against you: You did nothing? How dare you accept sexual harassment at your company! You fired him? How dare you fire that innocent guy groundlessly!

Second of all, you _need_ to listen to his side of the story as well. People are probably going to down-vote me for this one but taken out of context text messages don't mean very much. His friends could've played a very bad joke on him, the messages could be forged or he could've made an honest mistake.

Hell, if I were in your place I even would give the guy a second chance if he honestly apologized. But do make sure you watch him closely if you decide to take this route. These people do _not_ tend to improve.

</comment><comment><USER97> Seeing as he's new and she's not - kick him to the curb. Get rid of him before he causes more headaches for you.

</comment><comment><USER98> Sorry, but the person's gotta go. Get your lawyer on the phone, get the documentation ducks in a row, then let the axe fall. If you let the harassed employee know before hand is up to you, but I probably would a day or so before so they could prepare, change their phone number or something if they wanted, etc.

</comment><comment><USER99> I don't know if what he was doing was 100% harassment or not but that word makes it at least hard to argue its not.

The sad reality is that if a man makes advances towards a woman at work and she isn't interested, it is very possible he will end up being terminated for 'sexual harassment' regardless of what words he uses. Because sexual harassment effectively really boils down to any unwanted advance or even flirtation. It shouldn't be that way, it should be about actual harassment, but very few people are able to make such a distinction in a fair way.

So I don't think that in the current environment any sort of flirtation at work is really a safe maneuver unless the woman makes obvious advances first.

I have a feeling people will slam me and this comment but I haven't been downvoted very much this week so I guess it is time.

<comment><USER100> _any unwanted advance_

 _it should be about actual harassment_

For your sake, I hope you realize that "an unwanted advance" is "actual harassment".

<comment><USER99> For your sake, I hope you realize that people might not know that their advance isn't wanted until they try it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER101> She may say it's not a big deal, but it is. An employee who doesn't understand "no" is a liability, now and in the future. That being said, details matter, and you should deal with this using your HR and legal counsel. HN is not the right place for this kind of advice.

</comment><comment><USER102> Talk to your lawyer. And fire him anyway, there is no reason to keep a person like this in your team, it will get worst. Then send a short and non- inflammatory message to the rest of the company so everybody will know you won't tolerate this kind of behavior and act swiftly on it.

</comment><comment><USER6> Going to one of the founders over a weekend WA conversation, even bringing evidence, sounds like she's trying to get the guy fired. This isn't something that should be allowed to happen covertly, because it's ripe for abuse.

Other posters mention the phenomenon of avoiding interacting with women at work. The threat of "she secretly went to top brass, and I was fired without defence or cause" is exactly what might justify this.

The trust she placed in you is the trust that you'll keep her name out of this, but if she's getting someone fired, that's not ok without a more objectivity around the details. One side of the story is not objective - <USER2> is that one side _turns out_ to be accurate, you can't know this in advance.

</comment><comment><USER103> So what do I do HN? Do I fire him? Kick his ass? Get them in a room with a HR rep and talk it out? Hold a "how to recognize sexual harassment seminar"?

Is threatening to beat him up for off hand comments (which have not been fully presented) acceptable behaviour from an employer?

</comment><comment><USER104> Even if the harrased employee has no problem with it, it is clear you personally do and what will you do when you end up expanding or replacing existing members of the team and he continues his harrasment?

If nothing else, that guy is a liabillity (and a dick).

</comment><comment><USER105> You really do not need something like this derailing your startup. Hire a lawyer, and follow their advice.

Large companies like Intel give each employee rigorous sexual harassment training, but this is not something startups can always afford to do.

</comment><comment><USER106> This is actually a chance to set your startup's atmosphere for years to come – you should actually send the guy a gift basket. (1) Talk to the reporting employee to explain why (2) has to happen. (2) Fire him, for cause, publically, immediately. (3) Deal with any consequences of not talking to a lawyer first.

If you're at the scale where a wrongful termination suit isn't an existential risk to the company, you'll get bonus points if you actually lose in court.

As an employee, I'd work on weekends & nights for a boss who has a well- adjusted moral compass and will sometimes disregard business interests to act on it.

</comment><comment><USER107> I'm a partner at a global law firm. We handle these pretty routinely for both publicly traded and private companies alike. There are some funky theories in this thread. Happy to help if you want to get in touch.

</comment><comment><USER108> I guess going forward, there should be clear employment policies that forbid this type of behavior so the soon to be departing employee can not state that he was unaware that this was not apprioriate behavior.

<comment><USER109> If you are not aware that sending crude sexual messages is not appropriate behavior you have nobody but yourself to blame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> Talk to your lawyer.

</comment><comment><USER111> IANAL so talk to your lawyer first. Second write a policy regarding sexual harassement, make it sign by every employee, so it's clear this kind of behavior should not be tolerated.

The thing is if goes out of hand and for whatever reason the victim changes her mind and decides to sue you on the ground that you did nothing to prevent it you're f--cked. I've seen this before. So it's really about covering your ass and the reputation of your business. I think there are enough examples ( Github, Google ...) to prove my point.

</comment><comment><USER112> SEE YA!

Door. ASS. Way Out. Consult a Lawyer if you feel like it.

This kind of thing doesn't get better.

</comment><comment><USER113> If someone hasn't said this already, I'd look at firing him as a "teachable moment". It's not a negative, but rather a sign of unity, positivity, support, and togetherness.

Framed correctly, anyone in the company who hears even a rough "person was let go for a serious HR violation" (a lawyer will clarify who can hear what) will come away from the experience with increased rather than diminished confidence in their colleagies and your leadership.

EDIT to add: Also, she's not causing trouble, he is. Very simple.

</comment><comment><USER114> is it really sexual harassment? He tried clumsily to make a move on her and she declined, if he tries again it's a red flag, but if he stop his behavior you have nothing to worry about

<comment><USER115> Referring to a colleague as a 'milf' is not 'clumsily making a move'. Everyone knows what that's an acronym for. If you start a private chat with a colleague, they tell you to keep it about work, and then you tell them you'd like to fuck them, then you should expect to be fired.

</comment></comment><comment> mr-ron By bringing it to you, it is now your problem. You can't have him on your team continuing to think what he did was ok.

At the very least you need to bring it directly to him.

</comment><comment><USER116> I'd love to see a follow up of your decision and out comes. Possibly a tellHN later on. The advice in these situations seems pretty consistent in this unfortunate situation. Document, Lawyer, fire, support. If you do follow up id be particularly interested in the outcome of the support piece of the puzzle and how to balance group dynamics associated with the affected party in the aftermath. Any kick back...etc.

</comment><comment><USER117> By all means see a lawyer. Have the lawyer draw up an agreement of severance where he agrees not to contest the firing and not share any trade secrets.

Then immediately let him go and offer him 3-4 months of severance. Generous enough that he will sign it and immediately get out of your life. Then buy a sexual harassment video course that all new hires are required to view on their first day. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER118> Eeek, please tell me you've anonymised the key details... HN isn't really a great place for discussing sensitive/confidential information.

</comment><comment><USER119> This thread has become legal drama material. You have to scroll a lot of pages for some sensible opinions. I don't think the OP solved his problem.

</comment><comment><USER120> What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated.

Why do you guys jump to the extremes?

I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply.

That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, and won'.

<comment><USER46> Yes it wasn't egregious, but I've learned that if clients or employees cause problems early, the chances of it working out is very slim.

Plus, a big part of being successful in biz dev is to be able to read people and interact professionally. This person is new and to do what they did shows their 1) arrogance and 2) inability to read people.

Biz dev generally means investing in that person financially for some time before getting a return as it takes time for them to ramp up and close deals. Do you want to invest in someone like that and hope they'll change in fit your culture or just move on?

<comment><USER120> Maybe it's part of his tactics :)

Well, you may be right on that.

Simply put, IMO what constitutes harassment is if after you hit on someone, they tell you to stop, and you continue.

Or if you do something really bad as groping or saying something obscene. Calling someone a MILF is borderline, he might be just a very honest guy that said what he thought and meant it as a compliment (well, yeah.. a weird compliment).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER121> She told someone up the management ladder. The business is now financially libel if the situation is not aggressively corrected.

This can also apply to customers, not just co-workers.

Lawyers, good lawyers that know harassment law.

Worked for a company that had to settle a lawsuit before I started there. Management meetings every six months on this the entire 5 years I worked there, part of the settlement.

I have fired a coworker and banned a customer for this.

In US.

</comment><comment><USER122> Man, talk about CYA answers. A lawyer is probably going to give an answer that covers their butt. They're going to chose the lowest risk legal route.

Your employee came to you in confidence. If there is a legal way out of this that doesn't break that (maybe requires a bit of extra work), I'd chose it.

You have to realize how this could blow back on her in a big way.

</comment><comment><USER123> Get him out, this will not change. Ask your layer how to make it but you as a founder has the right to select who to work with.

</comment><comment><USER124> Definitely talk to a lawyer if you don't already have clear HR processes to handle this. It doesn't seem to me like a particularly egregious case, but mishandling it could be trouble down the line in a number of ways, and you need not only to handle it, but to be more prepared to handle -- and if possible prevent -- the next one.

</comment><comment><USER125> >referred to her as a milf

Ouch. Office romance happens...a lot...but this guy just sounds tactless & doesn't know when to back off.

</comment><comment><USER126> Tell her that you understand she doesn't want him fired, but that you need to protect all your other employees. He _just started_. It's not about her- it's about people who won't report it.

People who join your company later will be scared of existing employees, and probably won't report it. You can't be party to this.

</comment><comment><USER127> >I've seen the evidence of the texts in question.

Is this smartphone? If so, ensure its not a rooted device, where users can insert/delete things as they want.

\-- Let me add another view. Involve HR and talk to him first. If he admits truth then ask him to resign. If he didn't accept, listen to his version of story and ask him for proof. Then decide.

</comment><comment><USER128> Personally I would fire him after explaining to the victim that there's zero tolerance for sexual harassment (after consulting our lawyer - have to do these things by the book).

Ultimately it's up to you and how you want to define your company's culture.

</comment><comment><USER129> "told me she really doesn't want to cause problems with the team."

What people say and what people do are two different things, that and it could open you up to further legal issues. Talk to a lawyer, then talk to him (preferably with the lawyer).

</comment><comment><USER130> I recommend introducing an explicit sexual harassment policy. Have each employees sign that policy form indicating they understand the sexual harassment policy and that violating it is an offense that will result in termination.

</comment><comment><USER131> "The employee in question has made it clear that it's not a big deal and she knows how to deal with it"

Get that in writing, keep an eye on the situation and move on. Get rid of that person for another reason.

</comment><comment><USER132> OK this might sound harsh but the dude needs to be fired not only because of his conduct and legal risks the company could face, but because being a biz dev he's key job skill is to read people well.

</comment><comment><USER133> Isn't he in his probationary period anyway? If he is I don't believe you need a specific reason other that "not a good fit for the company".

As @patio11 said though. You need legal counsel.

</comment><comment><USER134> Fire them. If you don't, and they harass someone else, and it comes out they did it before and you didn't fire them, you will be held responsible and it will be extremely expensive!

Fire them!

</comment><comment><USER135> Lawyer

"it will be a violation of the trust"

Tell her that you really need to make sure there are no future problems with the team and that is why you must fire the new biz dev. He broke faith, not you or her.

</comment><comment><USER136> here are all the ways that people traditionally deal with sexism in the office. This vid from DevOPs Days Con, explains the pros of cons of each method. Going forward, implementing what you learn from this will go a long way. [https://youtu.be/M2mnDiWJhOY?t=2h27m26s](https://youtu.be/M2mnDiWJhOY?t=2h27m26s)

</comment><comment><USER137> Are you serious?

Terminate. The end.

</comment><comment><USER138> So many comments saying "Fire the guy" without any kind of investigation. And almost universal acceptance that what the woman said is the end of the fact- finding needed to make a decision.

In previous lives as a senior manager and litigation paralegal, I have had to deal with dozens of sexual harassment claims, including the kind that end up at the EEOC and a few that resulted in lawsuits. A good friend and former coworker is a regional HR manager for a Fortune 100 company, and he has seen everything under the sun.

OP, the only reason to do anything is because you're the founder and she brought it to you. You don't have to do anything other than document her conversation with you, but if you decide to stick your nose into it, here's what my thought process would be:

First, even if it's a small startup, OP cannot discuss with the accuser what action he takes with the accused beyond "I'll handle it." While this may baffle many here, it's really none of her business since it involves the accused's relationship with his employer. If he ends up firing the guy, she can put 2 and 2 together, but he cannot provide details of disciplinary action.

Second, he cannot announce to the rest of the employees that he fired the guy for sexual harassment, only something along the lines of "he no longer works here" with maybe some generic fluff about pursuing other opportunities. It's none of their business either.

Third, he needs to talk to the guy. "But she showed him the texts!" someone exclaims. "He called her a MILF!" That's one side of the story. Let's hear the other side before jumping to conclusions. This all happened outside the work context. We don't really know what the hell happened, only third-hand reporting of one of the participants.

Fourth, let the HR person talk to the lawyer, if OP's startup is big enough to have a dedicated HR person. If not, then yes, talk to a lawyer, but make sure they've got some litigation experience. Too many HR lawyers are just overpaid risk managers who don't have any clue of when to fight and when to fold and pay.

Which brings me to my last point: I know it may be unpopular to say, but sometimes women lie and manipulate just as well as men do.

At my senior manager job, I was accused several times of sexual harassment, even though I scrupulously avoided any kind of personal conversation that could lead to any hint of anything sexual with all coworkers, whether direct or indirect reports, peers, or superiors. I never met behind closed doors with women, except my boss, and she always left the blinds open and people felt free to interrupt at any time. And yet, I was accused. None of those accusations withstood scrutiny, but they were a gigantic PITA.

One crazy person even reported me to the FBI, after the EEOC found nothing actionable! (Seriously. The issue was that I was her last resort for altering an unfavorable survey given to her by a customer, and I refused to do so, for sound business reasons.)

Texts can be faked. We don't know enough to know whether the accuser's story is absolutely true and complete, and we certainly don't know her motives.

OP, find yourself someone with serious experience in employment law in your jurisdiction to give you counsel. Pay their fees. Stop trying to do it on the cheap by asking here, since it will do you no good and quite possibly do great harm to follow 90% or more of the advice in this thread.

Edit: added paragraph about doing nothing, and fixed "autocorrect."

</comment><comment><USER57> Any ideas why your employee brought it up to you (management) but does not want you (management) to do anything about it?

<comment><USER139> "I don't want to be seen as a problem, and I don't want this to be a case of management portraying it as 'that guy we love got fired because X can't take a joke'".

<comment><USER57> What is a manager supposed to do in this situation that does not lead to something along the lines of that? In that case, why bother bringing it up?

<comment><USER17> Keep an eye on him in case his behaviour persists? What may be reasonable and innocent done once, turns into harassment if done repeatedly, but if one just reports after many events, it's difficult to show the pattern.

<comment><USER57> I'd argue that calling someone a MILF in the workplace is already harassment. The problem with passively sitting by is that it can introduce more problems down the road because someone can claim that you passively sat by and fostered a hostile work environment. The harasser also has more credence if you only confront him until he does something else because at that point he can claim he didn't know it was a problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER140> First of all, talk to your lawyer. This is something that should have already been in place and there should be literature to give to each employee during their on-boarding.

Second, if the harassed employee does not wish you to do anything, the best thing to do is to indirectly address the situation with a company-wide seminar/meeting about the topic. List off all the things this employee did that are intolerable - he'll get it really fast.

<comment><USER9> This is super bad advice. Clueless people who read company wide memos very often have no idea that "We are talking about YOU, bub." I know, because I used to get those department wide memos and almost always felt like raising my hand and asking "So, um, this thing you are talking about...is...is that something ___I_ __am doing?? Kthxbai. "

(No, this was not about sexual harassment per se.)

Edit: Additionally, if this guy does put two and two together, he may well realize she told on him and this in no way protects her.

</comment></comment><comment><USER141> Tell him don't do it again, or he'll be fired?

And check with your lawyer. Get a lawyer if you don't have one.

</comment><comment><USER142> Lawyer + document + fire him.

This is a no brainer.

</comment><comment><USER143> Good Luck, I know this is a very touchy subject, sorry you have to go through it.

</comment><comment><USER144> Fire him. This doesn't have to cause team problems or violate any trust.

</comment><comment><USER145> Fire him

</comment><comment><USER146> Man I'd Like to Fire

</comment><comment><USER14> You should not have posted all that detail here.

</comment><comment><USER147> Not share the incident on here for starters.

</comment><comment><USER148> watch Silicon Valley :-)

</comment><comment><USER149> > _Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally > appropriate way._

"Team, some numbers are in. It seems our hot-milfs.xxx domain is bringing in more ad revenue than the rest combined."

<comment><USER97> That's not an example since you're talking about a website and it has a compound name. Additionally it's the porn industry, obviously, so MILF might be the okay word in that field. BUT in the software field where most people don't use the term MILF except in very private ways, MILF is derogatory. Whereas "Mother I'd Like to Fuck" isn't exactly a phrase that slips out in general corporate conversation.

<comment><USER149> Aw man, did you have to reply? :) I was about to delete that. It's a stupid comment, attracting undeserved upvotes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER150> Really can't stress it enough that you need to lawyer up before literally anything else.

Do not talk to them, do not go into work, take sick days if you have to, don't respond to emails, phone calls, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until you have talked it all out with your lawyer, and then do exactly what he instructs you to do.

Don't let this destroy your dream, friend! Especially over someone else's bad choices. Be safe, lawyer up, get this taken care of and move on with the work.

</comment><comment><USER151> Write it all down, consult a lawyer. Have a heart to heart with the guy and assess whether he just didn't understand or is a true creep. Let him know it doesn't fly and that you'll be keeping an eye on him, talk to the girl make sure she's cool with it.

Adults, move on.

All of you 'fire' 'lawyer' 'criminal' people are ridiculous.

It's a single word, out of work.

Imagine if two employees are dating. They are staying in each others flats. They get in a fight at work. Words are spoken. Is that harassment?

We are human before we are corporate warriors. We say and do odd things.

If you are a human leader you'll be able to handle the situation without a single thought moving forward.

Though I'd recommend putting it all in writing and documenting everything for legal purposes.

If you are a good leader, this thing will never bubble up again.

You have a product to build, focus on that.

<comment><USER152> You, er... you just called a woman a 'girl'. Did you mean to do that?

</comment></comment><comment><USER153> Is it sexual harassment B/C he asked her out or B/C he used the term "MILF" or B/C she wasn't interested? Did the whatsapp portion of the conversation occur at work or outside of work? Does your company have a policy that forbids coworkers to date?

My former boss dated an employee who worked in a different department. People at work knew and it was not considered a problem. No one got fired or sued. I guess I'm trying to understand the difference here. It seems to me the major difference is that in this case the woman wasn't interested. So is the takeaway here that if you ask out a woman you work with she will either say yes if she is interested or you will potentially be fired if she is not?

<comment><USER154> If you ask someone out at work and they tell you, 'as friends only' that should be the end of your advances. If you continue past that point and say stuff like, "You're a Mom I'd Like to Fuck" that is clearly into sexual harassment territory.

One polite and appropriate invitation to hang out (to a single coworker) is not sexual harassment. That is usually where the line is. Pushing after the rebuff is almost always trouble.

</comment></comment><comment><USER155> Wow.

So few information, but so many people ready to fire his ass.

At this point, I wonder if we should have men/women segregation in the workplace. This is the logical conclusion if you want to avoid this kind of problems.

<comment><USER156> > I wonder if we should have men/women segregation in the workplace.

That assumes all of your employees are heterosexual.

Once you assume some employees may be homosexual, bisexual, non-binary, asexual, etc. you quickly get a graph where employees are nodes are edges are "could possibly have unwanted attraction towards" that is not bipartite.

<comment><USER155> You are right. I also forgot those identifying as unicornkin.

Remote work for everyone is the only solution. :-p

<comment><USER52> It really gets ugly once squirrels are in

[http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3UE4U9MXPAX/](http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3UE4U9MXPAX/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER157> This is a bannable offense. Fire him and let your employee know that she did the right thing reporting such a thing. She did nothing wrong and should not feel bad about other peoples' behaviour.

</comment><comment><USER151> It's a very interesting case, I wonder if there are any lawyers who would care to comment?

</comment><comment><USER155> While your business might be your life, for most of your employees it's only a job.

This means that for most of them, it must be pleasant. They must be able to joke around and even, occasionally, flirt. If you try to turn every social interaction into a perfectly professional unfriendly and unsexualised environment, you will very quickly find that you are the only one left.

This is even more relevant in a small startup. In my experience, the worst kind of work environment is a startup trying to act like a big multinational. None of the perks, but all of the soulless experience.

I have nothing against firing someone for bad behavior. However, with the little info you provided us, there is nothing serious.

Make sure the new employee knows that her colleague didn't like his approaches and that it won't happen again.

You should also try to get both sides of the story.

Finally, you did say this:

> The employee in question has made it clear that it's not a big deal and she > knows how to deal with it (...)

How is she going to react if you fire his ass? Wouldn't it be acting like she can't take care of herself?

<comment><USER149> > _How is she going to react if you fire his ass? Wouldn 't it be acting like > she can't take care of herself?_

You know, it occurs to me you can't have this both ways: take care of yourself _and_ rat out the fiend to the boss above.

"Hello, 911? There is a robbery at Elm and 41st. But _don 't send anyone, I can take care of these dudes!_ One of the perpetrators saw me using my phone, so if police arrive, they will know it was me! And that scares me --- _that 's_ how much I can take care of this myself!"

If you don't want some authority to take action, don't burden them with the conflict of the knowledge and the request not to take action.

<comment><USER155> I can't believe I didn't see it sooner.

That's blatant manipulation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER158> I really don't understand the environment around sex and relationships in the work place. It's messed up. Someone should be able to express interest and the other person should be able to refuse it. Simple as that. But instead there is a whole drawn out ritual around these things. It's not really grown up thing that adults do, instead any male is looked at as an aggressive offender looking to rape someone, unless the female is interested and the male is supposed to know how at this moment the female is feeling. And the female is apparently always fearing rape unless she is interested. I am sort of creating hyperbole, but it seems as if the undertone is like that. On the surface I guess it's that well I am uncomfortable with how the other person is acting, but that should be resolved with some training or something, as when someone is rude to someone else and they don't appreciate it. But so it goes.

<comment><USER159> She _did_ refuse a romantic involvement by stating up front that she was okay spending time outside of work _as friends_. That interaction is okay. But he kept going. It's the "kept going" that is sexual harassment.

<comment><USER158> Yeah I don't know how the whole thing progressed. But it's a fine line and I guess he crossed it.

<comment><USER160> No, it's not a fine line, it's a thick line that's visible _miles_ away.

You don't tell people you want to fuck them at work.

<comment><USER6> * not at work

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER161> When you say, referred to her as a milf, do you mean to her face? Or to someone else in a private conversation?

If you take that out of the picture, then talking on Whatsapp, and asking to hang out, and telling a secret, do not constitute any sexual harassment. This is particularly true if we are talking about just one conversation after which the person did not persist. Should investigate that milf comment, however.

I am rather surprised by the number of people just saying that he should be fired. Really? Showing the littlest bit of attraction and then getting shut down is not harassment. You want to take away a person's livelihood for that?

<comment><USER17> I think people here are assuming that the other employee had a reason to go to the OP and show him the text, and that OP has a reason for being "really upset by th[e] guy's behaviour".

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Fire him. Period. He'll do this to someone else who might not report it.

Anyone who calls a woman a milf to her face has NO respect for women, and will cause problems with women at the company in 1000 other small ways (and possibly big ways).

Be that guy that says he's not going to let this shit slide, and then actually follows through.

Of course the woman said she doesn't want to cause trouble... she's trying to cover her own ass to make sure that you're not going to get mad at her (yes, I'm sure it crossed her mind). She reported it to you for a reason. Because it was _completely_ unacceptable.

Fire him. Fire him. Fire him.

And then explain to the rest of the company _exactly_ why he was fired. And that you're not going to tolerate that behavior. You can leave out details of who and why, even white lie if there's only one woman on the team, that it was a friend or something...

If you work in a state without at-will employment, you might need to talk to a lawyer... hopefully your HR team can help you figure out the safe way to do it. But do it. Even if it's not safe. Do it because it's the RIGHT thing to do.

</comment><comment><USER162> Don't use a lawyer. Read the penal text. Make yourself an opinion. And act according to the rules and preferably use written procedures without shaming. You can however make an "unrelated" meeting if you want to make yourself clear stating the law, and the process your company is following.

[https://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/harassment- facts.html](https://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/harassment-facts.html)

</comment><comment><USER163> From a legal standpoint, you need do nothing. He is not in any position to commit quid pro quo harassment. So far, there is no evidence of hostile workplace.

What your female employee has done is to cover her own ass in case the new male employee engages in any work-inappropriate behavior. If she comes to you again, and claims harassment, you are primed to believe her immediately and take immediate, appropriate action at that time.

Don't fire him. Don't kick his ass. Don't have a meeting with HR. Write down, "Ms. Y stated on [datetime] that Mr. X propositioned Y to upgrade beyond a work-only relationship, and Y declined. Y presented sufficient evidence to substantiate this claim." Attach a copy to both of their personnel files.

In two weeks, six weeks, and twelve weeks, proactively hold 1-on-1 meetings with all your employees, including Mr. X, and ask them if they feel as though Mr. X is assimilating well into the workplace. If no one has any complaints, even after you go fishing for them, there is no evidence of hostile workplace, and you have no further business with your employees' personal relationships.

It isn't your business to manage your employees' personal lives. It is your business to provide them with a safe, cordial, and productive work environment. It isn't your business to remediate unsavory bro-havior. I don't like how sales and biz dev tend to work in the real world, but I know that sometimes that kind of behavior is beneficial to a business. I just don't hang out with that sort of people in a social context. I prefer that their oily schmoozing be directed at potential customers, and I'm sure they prefer that I not ruin their good time with my dry-toast nerdity.

Personally, though, I would question the judgment of a _biz dev_ employee whose first act in a new camp is to dig his latrine next to the watering hole. Aren't they supposed to cultivate new business relationships _outside_ the company?

<comment><USER51> It's not their personal lives. It was in work time, initiated through work channels. And even if it was at a bar after work, it would still be rude and indicative of the kind of personality you don't want at your company. Waiting for him to slip up and hoping someone will report it is a horrible solution.

It's not like he said "hey nice haircut" and it was taken the wrong way. He called her a milf. There's no ambiguity.

Fire him.

<comment><USER163> I completely disagree. OP stated this communication took place during the weekend, via Whatsapp, rather than Slack. Clearly, this was personal business, through personal channels, on personal time.

If it was at a bar after work, there would be no reason for us to know about it other than the suspicion that it _might_ later spill over into work matters. Zero tolerance is a horrible way to run _anything_ , not just a business.

It is true that "at will" employment means you can be fired at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, but if you choose to run your business that way, do not be surprised when otherwise disassociated people abandon ship.

If I worked at this company and discovered that a co-worker had been fired on a justification this flimsy, I would be job hunting again at 5:01 PM that very day. Firing is an _extremely disproportionate_ response to making a failed proposition to a co-worker on personal time, through personal channels.

As immediate termination seems to be a somewhat popular response here, I just have to say " _What the Hell is wrong with you people?_ " You are now building the world you will have to live in later. I hope you appreciate the irony when popular sentiments change and your livelihood is subsequently threatened because your lifestyle and opinions are now unpopular.

You are, in all seriousness, advocating loss of employment and potentially long-lasting career damage as extrajudicial punishment for the heinous crime of _privately sending inappropriate text messages_.</comment></comment></comment>