Old-fashioned malls are beating Amazon in small-town America - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-only-mall-for-miles/2017/05/19/0571e478-39aa-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.d054face50e1 <comment><USER2> To me it seems that malls aren't dying, there's just been a major shift in who shops at them. Malls that are in prime real estate that cater to wealthy shoppers are doing quite well. Just go to Tyson's Corner in Virginia, or Somerset Mall outside Detroit on any Saturday and you will see that the reports of brick-and-mortar's death are greatly exaggerated.

But with regard to stores like Sears, JCPenney, and Macy's, the problem is that whereas in the 1980's, just about everyone shopped at them for everything but groceries and would travel from long distances to do so, nowadays it's just people who live nearby and just a subset of them.

I think this notion that it's Amazon that's killing traditional retail has some truth but it's very much oversimplified. While Amazon is no doubt eating into the sales of stores in every industry, I don't think Amazon is killing JCPenney, for example. After all, how many people do you know who buy their jeans on Amazon?

I think what's killing clothing retailers is the prevalence of a large number of smaller, niche manufacturers. People no longer want to buy drab clothing off a rack, they want to buy from a particular brand. People either are price- sensitive shoppers who will go buy off the rack from TJ Maxx or Ross, or are at the other extreme and want expensive name brands and will buy direct from the source or a select set of online retailers that sell them. That leaves retailers like JCPenney and Macy's in kind of a no-man's land.

<comment> j-c-hewitt I have worked on a lot of Amazon accounts and I even do a fair amount of retail arbitrage from TJ Maxx / JC Penney -> Amazon both online and in-store. Given that the bulk of my income either comes directly from Amazon sales or indirectly through consulting for Amazon sellers you would think that I would be in the ra-ra-ra-Amazon-will-annihilate-traditional-retail camp.

The big advantage that discount retailers like those have for shoppers over Amazon is price and being able to physically inspect merchandise before you buy it. The selection of certain brands is also often better at the physical retail stores.

The fact that you can make > 75% profit margins per unit in some categories flipping from discount retail to Amazon FBA demonstrates the advantage that these retailers have over Amazon. Amazon's fee structure also makes it so that certain price points are just about never going to be profitable for Amazon unless fees go down -- and fees have been going up quite substantially.

If you want good prices, you should not shop at Amazon - you should shop at a physical retailer.

So, Amazon has some issues with its model especially in categories like apparel that make it a pain to earn continual profits from. I prefer to sell men's to women's apparel for example because women return products for fit reasons at much higher rates as compared to men. Fitting measurements for women are also much less standardized because there's a lot of variance in female body shape. A return on Amazon is more costly to a seller than it is to a physical retailer.

Also, JC Penney generally has a minimum quality standard and often really impressive prices per unit that Amazon's fee structure makes it impossible to beat. You are not going to profit from selling a $7 polo shirt on Amazon unless the quality is awful and maybe if Amazon is buying it from you as a vendor. If you buy a $7 polo from JC Penney the quality might actually be great and JCP will earn a profit.

I have different opinions about Macy's because they generally do not have a price advantage. There is really no benefit to buying stuff at Macy's unless you really want the name brands and you don't mind paying a higher price. For a certain kind of shopper, that's what they want and that's what they'll get from Macy's.

This article is just as cherry picked as some of the 'death-of-the-mall' stories are. I could do a similar cherry picking locally by comparing one successful shopping complex about 30 miles distant from another one that is failing. Depending on which direction I drove I could tell a different speculative story about the future of the mall in small town America.

A lot of what is missed in the retail discussion is that while online retail is where a lot of the growth is, physical retail is where the bulk of the transactions still happen in the US. There is a limit to how much of that Amazon can 'eat.' Some if it is regulatory: in the latest issue of Total Retail, two of the biggest online sellers in 2016 were Walgreens and CVS. That's 'cause of online prescription pickup. If Amazon did go into that business -- as it might -- then the picture might start to look significantly different.

<comment><USER3> Here in rural northwest Kansas the nearest Walmart is an hour away. All the local retailers cost more than Amazon. And whereas I have fiber optic broadband, I'd rather shop on Amazon. I can, after all, return an item to them for free if it doesn't fit.

<comment> j-c-hewitt Absolutely, there are exceptions. I used to live in northeastern non-rural Kansas and local stores were generally cheaper. In high cost of living areas also prices may be cheaper on Amazon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The problem at least for me, is that malls these days don't seem to have any of the types of stores I like to shop at. They don't have bookstores anymore. They don't have music stores anymore. They don't have computer software stores anymore. It's just one clothing store after another.

<comment><USER5> So maybe that's true of books, music and computer software - but those things are often best experienced digitally anyways, many people consume them solely as digital goods.

But when I need clothes, car parts, electronic components, computer parts, any physical product with a non-zero chance of failure or an immediate desire really - knowing I can try something on or walk in 10 minutes later and return something and get it replaced on the spot is a killer feature - one that online shopping cannot replace.

I'd go so far as to argue that real stores are always better than online stores - online stores can only win on price and selection. For every other metric around, delivery time, replacement effort, ability to compare and to try, there's just no replacement.

<comment><USER6> _For every other metric around, delivery time, replacement effort, ability to compare and to try, there 's just no replacement._

For me, very often the delivery time is less important than time spent shopping. If you want/need something, but not immediately, it is much less effort to click "Buy" on Amazon, and get the item in 2 days, than to spend an hour on driving to the store, walking around to find whatever item you want, waiting in line to make a purchase, and then driving back.

<comment><USER7> Agreed! There are very few things I need immediately, and to be honest by the time I have enough time to make a trip over to a mall I could have ordered and it would have been delivered already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've noticed a prevalence of malls in some places which has not slowed down even in this supposed "death of the mall" internet future. Namely Canada (very cold winters - gotta stay indoors?) and throughout major cities in Asia (hot and humid summers - gotta stay in air conditioned indoors?). Malls in Asia are like small cities.

<comment><USER9> Yeah I live in a regional capitol in Japan (pop around 300-400,000 or so?) in a "dying" prefecture (population is going down), and in the past few years, one mall has expanded, another large one has gone up, and there's another new one planned. On weekends they're packed, and it can be impossible to find parking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> My family is in small towns: David City, Nebraska. Columbus, Nebraska. Lamar, Colorado. Seguin, Texas. Until I read this headline, I had no idea that anyone could define a small town as a town large enough to have a mall. The hospital I work in employs more than twice as many people as live in David City.

</comment><comment><USER11> I think the mall has a bad reputation TBH. My friends will not dare go, but I love it. I get Starbucks, a decent lunch, some basic shopping done and it has a kids play area.

I think we should turn them into a sort of social hub more than a shopping hub.

<comment><USER12> I'd love that if they were open later. 2am would work great. It makes a great place to study and work. If you've never been to the 24 hour bookstore in Taipei, someday you've gotta check it out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have a real issue with UPS / Amazon... ordered things like air filters, or a closet mounting rail, or just other random odds and ends I normally get an Home Depot or Costco... and they get all mashed up during shipping. Waste of time / energy to get them from Amazon if I can't be assured what I order won't be destroyed in transit. Anything that's not wrapped in another box is pretty much guaranteed to be jacked up when it gets to me in Austin.

But when you're out in the boonies, and the UPS drivers have to go a long way to get something to you... everything ends up busted / scuffed up in transit. It just sucks. Whenever I order anything for my Dad from Amazon (he lives in a very remote part of the US), what gets to him is never idea. I ordered a cowboy hat... and somehow it was squished flat. He tried to fix it, but by the time he told me it was destroyed in shipping it was a huge pain to return (he didn't know about returns). I ordered a bunch of jam... and they left it outside in sub-zero temperatures and all the jars broke because the jam expanded when it froze. I ordered a Jew's Harp and Harmonica set for him... and somehow the box got opened and only one of the instruments made it to him. Amazon hasn't always been great about returns / refunds in these situations. They are getting a little better, but it's just a shipping issue.

Shipping sucks to remote areas, and as long as shipping sucks, the Amazon experience will suck.

</comment><comment><USER14> even in the seattle metro, home of amazon, the malls are very popular. its an ordeal finding a parking spot at any of the surrounding malls on a given day. humans have always liked going to the bazaar/market/whatever and malls are the modern version of that. online shopping doesnt provide the same satisfaction that you get from physically going out and interacting with people and things. probably why people do more binge shopping online to get the same "high". physical shopping for digital goods will probably die out, but shopping in person for clothes, cosmetics or fragrances, etc cant really be replicated online. also with amazon you never know for sure if you're buying the legitimate product or a cheap knockoff. I generally trust places like nordstrom or macys more than amazon when it comes to high end products like that.

<comment><USER15> There's usually parking by Sears :)

<comment><USER16> Funny thing is; that's true! I always park my car there because it's empty and I don't mind walking.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> What the hell is that:

> The rise of online shopping has summoned a death knell for some of the old > standard-bearers of retail. (Jeffrey P. Bezos, the chief executive of > Amazon, owns The Washington Post.)

That in parentheses. Is this is a snarky comment from the editor or somehow required to add this information? (It's good to know btw!)

<comment><USER18> Just disclosure of potential conflict of interest.

<comment><USER17> Sounds like a reasonable policy at the Washington post others should take as an example.

<comment><USER19> Disclosing potential conflicts of interest is standard journalistic practice for any respectable news organization. This isn't something the Post just invented.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Going to the mall is still a social thing. Maybe in the future with VR and such we will reach a point were the Amazon experience is able to entertain you and your buddies for an afternoon.... but for now, malls win at that. Amazon destroys a mall any day when it comes to convenience, efficiency etc. but they are a lonely solo shopping experience. Remember that in many towns between the coasts, the mall is about the only "free" activity you can do on a Saturday afternoon.

</comment><comment><USER21> didn't read the article due to paywall ... but given that I pretty much grew up in a mall (90's), I really miss them ... well, maybe just the arcades that were in them :P

Malls in their current form (or at least, the form they were in in the 00's) _do_ need to die. In recent times, I've seen a few bright spots of innovation. Malls that have transformed their spaces to promote the social aspect ... just comfortable spaces where you can hang out. Also they've been innovating with adding bowling alleys, Arcades (albeit, the kitschy dave 'n busters type of arcades ... better than nothing I guess), and other experience-based attractions (rentals of little animal-shaped scooters, etc).

I hope that we can figure out something cool to do with all this real-estate that in many cases, just sits idle

<comment><USER22> The idea of a mall as a social space is great; after all, lots of us spent a good portion of our teenage years hanging out at malls for a good reason, before they started kicking out the teens.

The problem with this is that it's expensive real estate, and people just hanging out and maybe occasionally playing some game isn't going to generate enough profit for the place to stay open.

<comment><USER23> That's only true as long as it is expensive real estate, though.

If half the storefronts are empty and shuttered, the causeways devoid of shoppers, the parking lots eerily silent, then how long is it going to remain expensive?

<comment><USER22> Yes, but for now, at least in the more desirable locations, they seem to be doing just fine selling lots of expensive women's clothes, shoes, and luxury goods.

In the crappy locations, if the rent goes really low, then it's more likely to attract a lot of gang activity and have a lot of crime.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Amazon is benefiting from decentralized local retail stores. 90% of goods a person needs can be located within 15 mile radius. Instacart or Uber needs to setup a central inventory system that locals can shop and get their products within 1 hour instead of 2 days.

</comment><comment><USER25> Surprised to see no comments about the fact Bezos owns the post and they randomly include the fact about halfway through the article. "(Jeffrey P. Bezos, the chief executive of Amazon, owns The Washington Post.)"

<comment><USER26> They include the fact in the first paragraph that mentions Amazon. Almost certainly this is a house rule that all the editors at the Washington Post are familiar with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Barnes and Noble was a great place to socialize as well, but enjoying tables and food with friends is not the same as buying retail.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'm sure some will survive, but how many? Far fewer than currently exist—which is already far fewer than have been built.

<comment><USER29> Could you not say that about any business?

<comment><USER28> Eventually, probably. But for a while, the numbers go up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> small town people have to deal with small town postal workers whom have an incredible amount of leverage over the residents if they rely on amazon.</comment>


Ask HN: How to Buy Microcontrollers? - <AUTHOR> I'm a electronics hobbyist who's just about wrapping up a Pi compute module carrier board for a project. My first non-trivial PCB in fact, and it seems like it's going to work.
The Pi computer module has been the most accessible way I can find to get my hands on a Broadcom processor, but still, this unit adds $35 to my BOM, from which I estimate 15-20$ to be unnecessary parts (for my application).
I cannot find the BCM2711B0, or the BCM2837B0 anywhere for sale on DigiKey, Mouser or Octopart.
Similarly the Allwinner v3, the Novatek 966660, anything by Realtek, etc.
Possibly I'm going about this the wrong way, I've never designed a product for manufacture before, probably I find a partner in Shenzhen to source them for me, but what about small run build-at-home-prototypes, should I salvage the Broadcoms from older generation raspberry pis?
How do actually trained, well-connected electrical engineers who aren't solely derping around in their basement approach these kinds of issues? <comment><USER2> Most large SoC vendors only sell their chips to qualified partners who enter into contract agreements. They only want partners with significant technical resources and commitments to significant minimum order quantities (6 figures).

> My first non-trivial PCB in fact, and it seems like it's going to work.

Building a PCB to support a modern SoC is a serious undertaking. Layout and routing for high speed traces (DDR RAM) and power supply distribution is a very challenging topic. Many of these SoCs are in dense BGA packages, requiring 4, 6, or 8 layer boards with advanced features like via-in-pad as the BGA pitch gets smaller and smaller. This is within the reach of dedicated hobbyists, but it's something you'd want to work your way up to over several years.

> The Pi computer module has been the most accessible way I can find to get my > hands on a Broadcom processor, but still, this unit adds $35 to my BOM, from > which I estimate 15-20$ to be unnecessary parts (for my application).

The Raspberry Pi compute module is a great solution to your problem. You'd be surprise at how expensive it can be to design, develop, source, and manufacture an equivalent solution on your own.

Sourcing a pre-built module from an SoC partner is the standard way to do this, even for companies operating at small (<1000pc) volume. The R-Pi compute module is particularly large, but other SoCs can be found in significantly smaller modules. Search for "Linux system on module" to find other providers. [http://linuxgizmos.com/](http://linuxgizmos.com/) has a news feed of module announcements.

If you absolutely must design your own system, there are some SoC vendors who sell to retail customers and provide open access to their documents. They are the exception rather than the rule, so you must explicitly target these chips from the start.

Perhaps the most well-known vendor in this category is NXP with their i.MX series of chips. You can buy them on DigiKey and download all of the documentation from NXP's website. If you want to get started, take a look at their i.MX6 series: [https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and- microcontrollers...](https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and- microcontrollers/arm-processors/i-mx-applications- processors/i-mx-6-processors:IMX6X_SERIES) .

However, even with the i.MX parts it's still a better choice to use a pre- built iMX module for your prototype phase and even early shipping units. Prove the product and design first, cost reduce with a custom PCB later.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you _sincerely_ for one of the most valuable interactions I've had on the internet in recent memory.

Perhaps I've been deceived by how "simple" the schematics for the Pi compute module look, and overconfident after my first experience designing PCBs. There doesn't _seem_ to be that much (that I would need) actually routed on the pi compute module (hdmi, audio, etc, etc, etc)

I always seem to forget about NXP family of chips, but indeed NXP seems to do an amazing job of supporting their products and pricing competitively.

Again, my sincere thanks <3

<comment><AUTHOR> Reply to myself having done a bit more research

\- [https://docs.onion.io/omega2-project-book- vol1/omega2-intro....](https://docs.onion.io/omega2-project-book- vol1/omega2-intro.html) looks _amazing_

which I found researching and filtering in Mouser's embedded computing -> system on module page

\- [https://eu.mouser.com/Embedded-Solutions/Computing/System- On...](https://eu.mouser.com/Embedded-Solutions/Computing/System-On-Modules- SOM/_/N-aez5p?Ns=Pricing|0)

<comment><USER3> You might like this: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onion/omega2-5-iot- comp...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onion/omega2-5-iot-computer- with-wi-fi-powered-by-linux)

Small, runs Linux and it costs $5.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Shenzhen may have grown too fast, too soon, for its own good - <AUTHOR> https://www.ozy.com/fast-forward/chinas-silicon-valley-faces-meltdown-fears/87115 <comment><USER2> A history lessons:

Once there were only 4 original SEZs in China, Shenzhen was the one with the least of official blessing.

Back in days, Shantou was the official favourite of the government, so all of China's money was poured into it.

But the party officials made huge, grave and extremely banal mistake: they thought they will suddenly institute growth where there is none just by issuing official edicts. People who used to the idea of getting anything from others with a simple "I want," were shocked, and felt disbelief when they saw for the first time that building "that market economy thing" was completely outside their capability. It showed them how inept they, the elite class, were.

Shantou was full of "5 star hotels" and first shopping malls in China, and Shenzhen was full of factory dorms and omnipresent smell of unwashed socks. You know, there rest is history. Where is Shantou now, and where is Shenzen?

Now, we live in Shenzhen where not only the empty hotels and shopping malls being constructed in droves, but also there are 10 empty investment funds for each remaining manufacturing company.

It appears that nor the government, nor the industry has learned this lesson.

Make your conclusions.

<comment><USER3> This is interesting. So, you are saying the meltdown is due to government actively sponsoring malls/hotels instead of more manufacturing capacity?

<comment><USER2> Yes, totally.

Their desire to turn Shenzhen into "Fancy Global City®" borders on being a maniacal obsession.

These people have really hard time distinguishing in between cause and effect.

SF, and SV got the title of a global tech capital not because of dotcoms moving there, but because these localities made it possible for these dotcoms to grew up there. Them turning into global cities as a result is a consequence of this, not the cause.

Shenzhen was on track to becoming of a city where 80% of worlds production of anything electronic takes place, until demolitions of 2009-2011 that were catastrophic to the industry, and the later pivot to being a "Fancy Global City".

<comment><USER4> > demolitions of 2009-2011 that were catastrophic to the industry

Sounds interesting; any references?

<comment><USER2> Not much on it in English, but that was like a magnitude 9 seismic event for the electronics industry globally. Any industry insider will confirm that.

[http://www.lankadesha.com/china-to-close-down-polluting- fact...](http://www.lankadesha.com/china-to-close-down-polluting-factories-in- beijing-shenzhen/)

[http://www.bjreview.com.cn/headline/txt/2011-11/28/content_4...](http://www.bjreview.com.cn/headline/txt/2011-11/28/content_408262.htm)

First, demolitions began in 2009, the month new mayor moved in. At first, compensations were laughable. Imagine putting a factory for $20m USD just to discover a year after that you have to shutdown and and only be compensated for the land it stood on for $1m? In 2010, they began offering a relocation option to Shanwei, a totally middle-of-nowhere town without even one percent of Shenzhen's workforce. And in 2012, they very well made an ultimatum: "demolition by the end of the year, or right now if you refuse"

In total, around 15000 to 16000 factories were closed over the years and their land expropriated.

<comment><USER5> Any idea if those factories outright closed, or did many of them move location to somewhere else?

If many of them moved somewhere else, then maybe that location(s) will become future areas of high growth?

<comment><USER2> Most moved to outskirts of Shenzhen _municipality_ , just to be 1 cm outside of Shenzhen _city_ jurisdiction.

Longhua, Baoan outskirst, Dongguan. Zhuhai in particular scored a lot of heavy hitters, to Shenzhen mayor's disdain. Zhuhai gave "refugees" a complete carte- blanche to setup any factories they wanted.

Very very few factories did use their relocation option to Shanwei. Those were real heavy industry companies in their majority, because for them facilities relocation cost was a genuine life and death matter.

Best to say that 2009-2012 events have led to growth being scattered, and great loss of "cluster effect."

While Longhua was a rural locality before these event, it did scored few companies who moved into already existing, vacant plan economy era factories and refurbished them. Our Wi-Fi OEM contractor rents one of such factories. Longhua's officials were, of course, very glad to see such developments. There are few residential high rises there now for people who moved to work in those factories from Shenzhen. It will certainly acquire title of a city before the end of a decade.

Dongguan was already the second biggest manufacturing hub in the province after Shenzhen, and will soon take the first place from it.

Zhuhai, I bet, will be becoming what mayor of Shenzhen city originally wanted, a high-tech, high-value service/product hub. The city was very receptive to genuine tech companies, and was very accommodating when it was coming to securing land for factories and campuses, as well as guarding newcomer companies from overzealous bureaucracy.

P.S. I think I need to clarify what to understand under factory. The digit of 15000 companies is given for all "manufacturing enterprises," which could be anything from a garage workshop, to a one man factory ran from a flat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Shenzhen has changed a lot in the past three years (when hasn't it) - but the specific trend I've noticed is the electronics factories moving out and the high end malls moving in.

The cost of maintaining a 3x3 meter booth in HQB has continued to rise (especially now that the subway line construction has finished) while real business has shifted online to TaoBao.

Yes, it's still the undisputed electronics center of the world but there's a palatable shift on the street from wholesale to retail. Factories I work with there say as much. Permitting is becoming a chore. Home ownership in a licensed complex (as opposed to unlicensed) is unattainable. Even trips to T2's are going further and further afield.

<comment><USER7> Why would I want to bother going to HQB when I can just order from those guys on taobao? The consumerization of the electronics market is sad for those into browsing.. it's fun. But really, if you want to prototype something it's way easier to order online and if you actually want to produce something then random stuff from HQB or taobao isn't going to cut it anyway.

<comment><USER6> Going to HQB is (was) valuable because:

1) You get a visceral read on what's up and coming - every month and half it's different but volume doesn't lie. Reading the tech news you're in a filter bubble for whatever company is spending the most on PR but on the street you get a real sense for what's being made in volume. Pulling the threads on why this new widget is trending this month is _always_ educational.

2) For prototyping something I find HQB _quicker_ \- you can get supplies, programmers, and adapters all in under an hour - usually it was just a new test fixture for isolating a QA issue you've found but having it down the street is wonderful. For production, yes, by all means go through your supplier network.

3) Going in person let me build up guanxi with the niche vendors where I was a repeat customer. As a 6'4" huge foreigner I left an impression, and in turn was able to leverage that network to find things I couldn't/didn't know of. WeChat has streamlined this but the tone is completely different there between people I've met in person and people I haven't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Assuming China's economy continues to grow over time (a good bet, regardless of pace), one certainty is that there are going to be plenty of euphoric runs and meltdowns to match. With the immense wealth that China has compiled, it's inevitably going to push bubbles in asset classes from time to time, whether in real estate or tech. Culturally the Chinese seem to enjoy speculative investment at least as much as the US does. The meltdown in question is about as interesting in terms of consequence, as the guaranteed flood of worthless stories that will claim Silicon Valley is dead (again, for the nth time) after the next recession hits.

</comment><comment><USER9> I was struck by the map showing the emptying out of the minor towns and cities. While it's something I've been aware of for years, that visualisation is particularly stunning (and, tangentally, with such concentrations things like high-speed rail and China's delivery/Taobao culture look very efficient).

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't see anything in the article that supports the thesis of the title? Shenzhen has grown 858% in 25 years, and faces growing pains. OK, but that's not a "meltdown" like the title suggests.

<comment><USER4> Yes, the title is completely detached from the article - usually there is at least a small reference in the copy to justify sensationalist titles, but here I didn't find any.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I probably didn't read every word carefully, but does the article really reflect the HN title? I don't really see it in there. What I read is "It grew a lot, and it's not perfect". Of course such kind of project is government created and therefore is kept alive as long as the government sees value in it. It's not different in California. Such kind of areas don't survive all by themselves. In reality innovation/investing is not something that can keep a city alive by itself.

<comment><USER12> > does the article really reflect the HN title?

No. This is a clickbait post.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Lived in SZ for 2 years, the comments in the media are too negative. Shenzhen is losing manufacturing, all the while the city's GDP continues to grow. Why? Because it's moving into more higher value areas such as software. I don't see any downside for SZ, it's location at the heart of the region, between HK, GZ etc, makes it well placed to continue to thrive.

</comment><comment><USER7> This article basically said nothing. So there's a bunch of wanna be maker spaces where nothing gets made? So too are there a bunch of wanna be accelerators in the bay area that never fund anything. So what?</comment>


Prefix compiles to Javascript. C# is the inspiration - not the goal. - <AUTHOR> http://www.toptensoftware.com/Articles/132/Porting-Burst-Fish-to-Prefix

<comment><USER2> The more I see these little languages on top of javascript the more I think that JS.next should not be distracted by syntax wars. Syntax problems are solvable today. We need some core improvements for things that are impossible or highly inefficient today. For me, that's operator overloading and value proxies.</comment>


JavaScript mp3 decoder allows Firefox to play mp3 without flash - <AUTHOR> http://jsmad.org/ <comment><USER2> If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, feature requests must be the next-sincerest. With that out of the way, I'd love to see:

* Standard playback widgets: volume, position slider, etc.

* A way to link songs, e.g. <http://jsmad.org/play/114578>

Fantastic work!

<comment><USER3> I just added the link song feature. The link above should now work ;) Enjoy!

<comment><USER4> For those wondering: romac is too modest. He's this awesome guy I'm building a startup with, and he's been kind enough to let me host the demo on our shared VPS zip.cat, and he's been sysadmining really hard for the last 2+ hours to keep our server from collapsing under the combined weight of the internets :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As a wise Keanu Reeves once said, "Woah."

Is there any upper limit you've found with bitrates, etc.? Also, what was the most difficult part in building this?

<comment><USER4> Been playing 320kbps Stereo flawlessly afaik. The bitrate is really not much of an issue.

Browsers have a much harder time dealing with binary XHRs, huge typed arrays, huge strings, and a real fucking lot of arithmetic operations.

I think the most difficult part was the debugging. Jens Nockert, Matthias Georgi & I finally used node.js and carefully diff'd the output from minimad.c (the canonical libmad example) and jsmad.

However, it quickly became obvious that comparing exact values wasn't going to cut it. Listening was also almost useless (try to debug when all you have is SCRRRCHHHHHH vs CRRRRRRKKKKKK). So we plotted graphs. With gnuplot. It was a matrix-like experience but quickly allowed us to see what was wrong.

Profiling the code via Firebug made us realize that most of the time (~28%) was spent in the synthetizer (synth.js). The I/O code is particularly expensive too, it's a mix of Uint8Arrays and javascript Strings, depending on whether you're using the local file version (filestream.js) or the http streaming version (ajaxstream.js)

One of the funniest part was when I had to code 36-bit precision integer routines in Javascript such as shifting, OR-ing, AND-ing.. I had to separate the numbers in a low word and a high word and then work with floats (which have a 54-bit mantissa in JS).

Really quite an experience!

<comment><USER6> I suspect that there's a fairly interesting blog post with samples of the gnuplot output waiting to be written about this.

<comment><USER4> That's a good idea. I think some of the graphs are still on the depo (in experiments/node/ or something).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Doesnt work for me (no audio): Chrome 12 on Ubuntu 10.10 64-bit Youtube is playing fine.

Here's the Chrome debugger log:<http://pastebin.com/MwqfD1K5>

<comment><USER4> Yes, as said in the README, the audio output doesn't work on Chrome. I have no idea why - audiolib.js should support it. Maybe we're just using it wrong?

If the audiolib.js dev is here or anyone else has a clue, it'd be very welcome.

<comment><USER8> Really? It's working on Chrome 13 for me, though because of how Chrome slows down JS execution when you switch to another tab, things can get... funky.

<comment><USER9> It's the same thing in Firefox, <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=665000>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> jsmad lead developer here, shoot if you have any questions!

<comment><USER10> Does anyone have a good handle on what the GPL means in the context of a javascript library invoked by an html page rendered by a browser? I certainly don't!

nb, you say: "libmad has commercial license. As for jsmad, we're in a sort of grey legal area." I presume you mean that you would have problems with a commercial licence? Your work is clearly a derivative work of libmad, so it has to be GPLv2 licensed: any commercial license would have to be by agreement with the libmad developers I think.

Regardless: very cool stuff!

<comment><USER9> Yes, anything under the GPLv2 is obviously fine. But we cannot relicense it under a commercial/liberal license like libmad could (at least not without their permission).

<comment><USER10> That's my take too.

The remaining question then is just how far the reach of the GPL is in the context of a javascript library. Just the javascript that actually calls the code? Everything else called from the same html page? Everything else on the same site?

It's a shame the history of libmpg123 is so clouded: they've made a good effort to contact all the previous developers to get permission to LGPL the library, but they haven't been able to reach everyone so there are always going to be lingering doubts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Firefox 4.0+ AND Chrome 13.0+ are supported.

However, Web Audio API doesn't seem enabled in Chrome 13 by default, just go to 'audio:flags', check "Web Audio", then click the "restart browser" button and it should work.

<comment><USER11> How did you find working with Firefox's AudioAPI and Chrome's Web Audio API, how do they compare? What drawbacks and advantages did you find working with each of them?

<comment><USER4> Actually, we're using audiolib.js, which abstracts over the Audio Data API and the Web Audio API, so your question would be better directed to the audiolib.js author :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Technical question: You're using goto in a do/while loop here :

[https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad/blob/master/src/decoder....](https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad/blob/master/src/decoder.js#L86)

How are you pulling this off? I ask because while goto is a reserved word in JavaScript I didn't think it did anything.

<comment><USER4> Good question :) If you watch the resources/network tab under Chrome/Firebug you'll notice that decoder.js isn't used in the demo. It's my unfinished attempt to port libmad's decoder.c, so it still contains a bit of C code, I'm not even sure it's valid Javascript at this point :)

In the demo, we're replicating some of its functionality in [https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad/blob/master/src/player.j...](https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad/blob/master/src/player.js) instead, although in a less robust way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> If the site isn't loading for you (I was getting nginx errors for a bit before it finally loaded for me), here's the github repo: <https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad>

<comment><USER4> Yes, we're running this on a node.js+nginx VPS and you guys are MURDERING it.

That's great news though! Bear with us as we try to handle the traffic :) And reload from time to time until it works.

Edit: all static assets are now served by nginx, and the default track is cached on our server instead of being proxied by node.js all the way. Wish we had CORS at official.fm!

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm curious whether you came up with the logo after the fact, or whether you named it after the mag?

I've been surprised at how blatantly some recent open source projects reference pop culture in ways that are just begging for a takedown order - cool.io is another. I suppose it may be worth it if you're primarily focused on getting noticed in the short term (perhaps to get investment or a good job offer), but long term it seems to guarantee that the project will need to go through a rename with all the confusion that entails.

Edit: Forgot to say the technology really is amazing.

<comment><USER9> The library is named after libmad, which when ported to js became jsmad.

The page linked is just a demo for Music Hackday Barcelona, was not intended to get _this_ much publicity.

<comment><USER14> Ah, makes perfect sense. Thanks and good luck with the project!

<comment><USER4> Yeah, this is not the official logo btw - @antoinem is the one to contact about the Demo's visual look.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It'd be neat to have a overview of the different 'modules' in play and what they do (either in the README or a separate wiki page). Great stuff!

<comment><USER4> We would've loved to have that too when porting the mad code.

Here's a quick overview:

bytestream is our general I/O abstract class - there's much room for improvement because it works with Strings. substream allows to have a 'view' of a slice of a bytestream.

filestream and ajaxstream are two implementations of bytestream, doing local File I/O (with the upcoming W3C File API) and XMLHttpRequest streaming. On Firefox 4.0+, ajaxstream takes advantage of mozBinaryResponse and uses Uint8Array(s) to 1) compute the amount of data read, and 2) implement getU8 (which is used a lot).

bit.js is a straight port of libmad's bit manipulation routines. Bit-level I/O is a must-have in an MP3 decoder because you have numbers stored on 7 bytes, 19 bytes, and other weird stuff like this (especially in the huffman decoding part).

huffman.js, imdct_s.js, rq_table.js are all tables used somewhere else in the process.

layer3.js is really the central part. it implements huffman decoding, the various IMDCT transforms, reordering, requantizing... all sorts of magic tricks I didn't fully grasp even while porting. Comparing the output was really our best weapon. The libmad guys are really the reference guys for this kind of question. We had to strip out all their fixed-point stuff because it's really of no use in Javascript, since JS only has floating point numbers - even if we can make them _behave_ almost as integers, it's still as costly as FP arithmetic so we just went floating point all the way - hence, jsmad doesn't have 24-bit output like libmad has. libmad is wayyyy better at everything :)

synth.js is the second central part - it synthesizes the sound waves from the decoded MPEG Layer-III data. It's the most expensive part of the project, since it's just thousand meaningless arithmetic operations, something JavaScript doesn't excel at.

mad.js contains mostly constants (errors), a few utility functions

decoder.js isn't used anywhere, it's my attempt to port decoder.c from libmad, but it's unfinished.

player.js is our ill-fated attempt to play the decoded MP3 correctly - it's really naive (no seeking, stutter in some cases, no buffering of decoded frames, etc.)

<comment><USER16> Maybe it's a silly question, but how did you output sound after decoding the stream? I wasn't aware browser JavaScript had any APIs that work with sounds directly. There is Audio, but IIRC it just streams the file from the server.

I've looked at the sources, but couldn't fine the part that would answer my question.

<comment><USER4> You're talking about the HTML5 <audio> tag.

We're using audiolib.js, which abstracts over Mozilla's Audio Data API and Chrome's Web Audio API - both of which allow direct access to the sound device :)

(And no, it's a really good question! More people should know about this stuff!)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> When does mp3 playback fall out of patent protection? I know people keep digging up new patents for popular standards but assuming Mozilla and like- minded developers put some effort into patent avoidance you'd think they'd be able to include native support for some subset of mp3 playback without too much patent trouble by now.

</comment><comment><USER18> Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I'm noticing speed/pitch differences in playback when I load a file from my disk versus playing in iTunes. Billy Joel sounds more like Janis Joplin.

Edit: Horrible bug report -- I'm in Chrome 12 with the Web Audio about:flag enabled on Mac OS X 1.6.7

Edit 2: Just tested in Chrome Dev 14 and the issue is unchanged.

<comment><USER4> Haven't noticed this myself. Can you upload an example mp3 file and file a Github bug? <https://github.com/nddrylliog/jsmad/issues> (Also, I don't have a 'Web Audio' flag in my Chrome 12 - I have in Chrome Canary on Windows though).

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Oh, and by the way. Please join #jsmad on freenode (IRC) if you want to help us make the library awesome!

</comment><comment><USER19> How does this work? I didn't think JavaScript could read a file on a byte level.

<comment><USER4> Magnets heh. In JavaScript you have basically two options:

The legacy way is dealing with binary data as an ASCII String - effectively a string of bytes. This works but it's hella slow - probably because browsers didn't think we'd be using 67MB strings :)

The new way is with Typed Arrays: using an Uint8Array is pretty awesome, see the [Mozilla Developer Docs](<https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript_typed_arrays>).

Mozilla Firefox since version 4.0 allows to do XMLHttpRequests (xhr) to be retrieved directly as an ArrayBuffer, which you can then create an Uint8Array view on. Since Gecko 6.0 (Firefox 6.0), mozResponseByteArray is deprecated and they've implemented the new standard way: see [https://developer.mozilla.org/En/XMLHttpRequest/Using_XMLHtt...](https://developer.mozilla.org/En/XMLHttpRequest/Using_XMLHttpRequest#Receiving_binary_data_using_JavaScript_typed_arrays) for more details.

As for reading local files, the [W3C File API Draft](<http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/>) is implemented in Firefox 4.0 and Chrome 11+ as far as I can tell, and it also allows us to retrieve a binary string.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Awesome! But...

I'm not a JS guy. I can't contextualise this. How does this compare to HTML5 browser-based audio playing? Will this be a new way to make an audio button? Or does it go much deeper than that for JS apps?

<comment><USER4> From what I hear,the HTML5 <audio> tag implementation quality varies wildly. It hasn't been used much in production for desktop-targeted web apps. It is, however, quite popular on the iPlatforms, because you have no Flash there!

As far as I can tell, jsmad is not going to replace the HTML5 audio tag on mobile devices. However, it does constitute a nice legal workaround for MP3 in desktop browsers such as Firefox.

It gives access to the full decoded audio data, the code doing the playback (player.js) is actually just a tiny little part of jsmad! The HTML5 audio tag seems to also give access to the decoded data, but I haven't messed with it enough to know what's the level of control.

What would be really interesting though, would be something like streaming audio applications - completely flash-free, something that would be (imho) hard to achieve using the HTML5 <audio> tag.

My opinion is that it's wrong to try to add _everything_ as browser built-ins. If the Javascript are powerful enough, why not use it to decode PDF/MP3/whatever? I'm guessing we won't see a video decoder for a few months more, but who knows? Things are moving fast.

So to answer your original question: it goes much deeper. For an audio button it would probably be overkill, but then again, why not?

<comment><USER21> At 50% cpu utilization this is very impractical outside tech demos.

<comment><USER9> Yes, please help optimize it.

<comment><USER21> The question is can it be optimized? My knowledge of this stuff is very limited but I assume javascript object wrappers for number types and lack of SSE/SSE2 instructions will be the biggest blockers to performance.

<comment><USER9> I doubt SSE2 would help much, at most 2x on arithmetic performance. Much time is spent fiddling with arrays, and the newer version of firefox the better that performance is. In addition there are many optimizations to do.

A Pentium 1 can decode MP3s in assembly, so in Javascript we probably need a few times more power, but not insanely much more.

<comment><USER4> Switching entirely from Strings to typed arrays would help a great deal imho. Right now the code is hybrid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Thanks to all contributed to this clever hack. MP3 on all browsers, without flash, is a really worthy goal.

But I'm hearing sputtering, myself. Are you guys going to carry this to a production-capable system?

<comment><USER9> Yes, it is stuttering right now. Especially when it is in the background. We think this is a buffering issue, but yes. We hope this will be able to go into production soon(tm).

<comment><USER22> FWIW, I'd love to see support for icecast or shoutcast streams.

<comment><USER4> As long as they contain only MP3 files, that would be really really easy to do. If someone does it on Github, please ping me - we'd love to host it on jsmad.org

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Couldn't get it to load in Firefox 4.x, it just says loading. Looks like a neat idea though, I'll give it a second look once the Slashdot load clears off.

</comment><comment><USER24> Please get on this Grooveshark. I run Linux and your client runs so slowly.

</comment><comment><USER25> First HTML5, now JS? Looks like everyone's trying to make Adobe obsolete.

<comment><USER4> And I'm sure hoping we succeed! They recently pulled the plug on Adobe Air Linux support ( [http://blogs.adobe.com/open/2011/06/focusing-on-the-next- lin...](http://blogs.adobe.com/open/2011/06/focusing-on-the-next-linux- client.html) ), which only makes them look worse in the eyes of devs like me.

I don't care if the year of the Linux desktop never comes - you just don't pull the plug one something like that. Adobe is becoming incredibly irrelevant to the consumer, while still strong to the content producer market - which I want to know nothing about anyway. So, all the best :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Would have been great if it worked on mobile Safari!

<comment><USER9> When it supports the Webkit Audio APIs, it will work. But it might be too slow on a phone. Even on a laptop it is a serious CPU hog.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Hmm... 502 Bad Gateway. Can't wait to see this!

<comment><USER9> Sorry, yes. nddrylliog and romac are doing heroic efforts to keep the servers up. But we got slashdotted.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Can this be made to work in Opera?

<comment><USER9> I don't know, I would guess that some sort of Audio API might be keeping it from running (like in Webkit).

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Does nothing on Firefox 3.6.x

<comment><USER9> No, maybe we should add something to the page about not working on oldfox/chrome/ie/etc.</comment></comment>


Super Mario World "Completed" in Under 3 Minutes by Corrupting the RAM - <AUTHOR> http://minimaxir.com/2013/03/127-yoshis-in-slot-6/ <comment><USER2> These TAS runs are pretty cool, but from a pure coding standpoint, I think the Dream Devourer healing trick in Chrono Trigger for the Nintendo DS is more interesting because it relies on nothing other than a common variety bug that can be reproduced by a human user without external tools and on the real device:

<http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Devourer>

The bosses' hit points are close to the limit of a 16-bit integer, so you can cast a healing spell on it, overflow the int to get him to negative hit points and then kill him with any successful attack.

PS. I've been seeing these CloudFlare error messages all over the place the past week, doesn't really paint a great picture of CloudFlare when I'm constantly trying to view content and seeing an error message with strong CloudFlare branding telling me I can't see it, regardless of whether or not it is CloudFlare's fault that I can't currently see it.

<comment><AUTHOR> There's an infamous underflow glitch in Pokemon R/B/Y.

The minimum level for a Pokemon in the game is lv. 2. If you get a lv. 1 Pokemon (need to use another cool glitch for that), and that Pokemon gains EXP that's not enough to hit lv. 2, underflow occurs and it gets billions of EXP, and hits lv. 100 immediately.

<comment><USER3> Not on every pokemon species. It depends of their growth rate[1], which need to be "medium slow".

It has been corrected starting from the gen 3 (and it explains why your starters & eggs starts at level 5 instead of 1).

[1] [http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Experience#Relation_t...](http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Experience#Relation_to_level)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, you're right. The link on that page under Experience underflow clarifies it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> My favorite Mario hack is the TAS run beating Super Mario Brothers 1, 2, 2 Japan (aka The Lost Levels), and 3 _simultaneously_ with the _same_ controller:

[http://www.geekologie.com/2011/04/super-mario-magic- beating-...](http://www.geekologie.com/2011/04/super-mario-magic-beating- four.php)

<comment><USER5> Impressive. I always liked multiple games with one controller.

I'll have to say that the Megaman X and Megaman X2 double-speedrun was more entertaining however.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AHVSamD5WQ>

I guess the boss battles are much longer in X and X2, and X2 also has the shoryuken instant-kill attack, making the games more "synced up" so to speak. So it makes for an overall more entertaining video, even if it was perhaps easier to do.

Controls are also much tighter on Megaman X and X2, so its much easier to see that the everything is synced up.

<comment><USER6> That's fantastic. I'd love to see something like this for Metroid: ZM and Super Metroid. Be especially interesting if they also managed to sync up areas at some point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> It looks like the traffic killed my website (I apoligize, it looks like my backend cache may have been misconfigured).

The Google cache is here: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:minimax...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:minimaxir.com/2013/03/127-yoshis- in-slot-6/)

<comment><USER7> It's impressive, but would the same input timings work on a real SNES, or does it depend on emulator inaccuracies?

<comment><USER8> I don't know much about RAM corruption, but at 2:10 in the video Mario _loses_ Yoshi then magically brings him back. Is this video stitched in some way?

I used to be infatuated/obsessed with the Mario series. But right now I don't recall if it was possible to call Yoshi back like this.

Any clarification?

<comment><USER9> That's explained in one of the threads linked: "I spawned two Yoshi's by hitting the block with Mario and the p-switch at the same time. I jumped on one Yoshi, got the p-switch in his mouth and let him die, so the second - invisible - Yoshi becomes visible and have a null sprite in his mouth."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There's a Pokemon Yellow run which finishes the game in under a minute, without leaving the starting room: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry72jYferEo>

There's also a run where someone executes arbitrary code in Pokemon Yellow: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UnB1fomvAw>

<comment><USER11> I figured everyone in hacker news would of being all over the arbitrary code execution. Never got any attention when I posted it though :(

<comment><USER12> That's because it was a repost. Give me a minute or two and I'll find the one that made the front page.

EDIT: Found it.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4891879>

<comment><USER11> ah thanks, I didn't know about that

though a word in my defense, it's not specifically a re-post. The one listed here and the one I posted deliver a PI Day package in 3 minutes and 14 seconds.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> All these TAS videos make me jealous I never recorded my corrupted speedrun of Willow for the NES. The game was similar to Zelda 1, a tile-based world. There was a code[1] that allowed you access and change what tile willow was on at any given moment. Basically teleport to any room in the game. The on screen enemies would teleport with you. A crazy mixture of moving to certain rooms with certain enemies would trigger the game's final battle sequence with an easy-to-defeat weak monster, causing you to beat the game in under 10 minutes. If anyone here on HN knows of anyone out there making a vid of this, please tell me. :) I can't remember how to do it anymore.

1\. <http://tcrf.net/Willow_%28NES%29>

<comment><USER14> Not sure whether you mean the debug mode or the Game Genie code here, but both of these would be considered off-limits to most TASes. The former because it involves starting with a password (equivalent to starting from a save game, if I understand correctly?), and the latter because GG codes modify the game you're playing.

<comment><USER15> Odd factoid: I wrote the manual for the Game Genie

<comment><USER16> Odd factoid: You are responsible for my not being afraid of hexadecimal when I first encountered it in computer science literature.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> It's linked in the article, but if anyone is interested in more runs like these, here again is the primary Western community for TASing:

<http://tasvideos.org/>

And these are the two primary Western communities for human speedrunning, whose members usually post videos on Youtube and stream on Twitch:

<http://speeddemosarchive.com/>

<http://speedrunslive.com/>

Japanese communities tend not to be as coherent (to the best of my knowledge), comprising mostly independent, anonymous runners posting on <http://www.nicovideo.jp/> or other sites.

<comment><USER18> This glitch was discovered by あんた

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> That's a nifty run. I like the similar one for Super Mario Land 2 on the Game Boy: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZqEcVg8Ei8> . Mario busts out of the level boundaries and punches out the block that holds the "victory?" flag.

<comment><AUTHOR> That one I hadn't seen before. It appears to use a similar technique, except much more simple. (not surprising, given that the GB has much less ram than the SNES.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I wouldn't really call this "corrupting the RAM". It's not "corrupting" it more than running any other code; it's just taking advantage of certain states.

(I'm not saying it's not extremely impressive. It is. It's just slightly misleading wording)

Edit: Downvoters: Did I misunderstand something? I read it again along with the original forum post, and it seems pretty clear that this could theoretically be done on an original SNES, without any tools, it's just impossibly hard in practice. So how is it "corrupting"? You wouldn't call a buffer overflow attack "corrupting RAM", even though it's based on exactly the same principles. And you certainly wouldn't call playing the game normally "corrupting the RAM", even though it's manipulating the RAM in the same way.

<comment><USER21> Memory corruption is generally defined as occurring when the contents of RAM are modified in a way not intended by the original programmers. [1] Under this definition, buffer overflow attacks would certainly qualify, as would this exploit.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_corruption>

<comment><USER22> But the memory contents aren't actually being _modified_ in an unintended way. They're only being _used_ in an unintended way. The random number generator is supposed to tick this way, and the sprite data is supposed to work this way. The key exploit is in getting the game to run a subroutine at the wrong time, so that it uses the _valid_ memory contents as code and skips to the end.

There are other mario games where you can go out of bounds into memory and start flipping bits. _That_ is memory corruption. Here I don't think the term applies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This strikes me as a very neat analogy to Neo "taking the red pill" in the first Matrix movie.

</comment><comment><USER24> We need a name for game glitches that can be used to your advantage.

I propose "vanellopes".

<comment><USER25> <http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodBadBugs>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Pokemon yellow one in more intereseting. Somehow player (programmer?) removes the item limit in his backpack and his back pack overflows and shows the program code as item list.

Then he reprograms the game by rearranging items. He even buys new items for different OP codes!

Here is the video, there is a shorter one but this one is much more interesting <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYQpl8Jj6Yg>

</comment><comment><USER27> Not knowing enough about RAM makes me feel like I haven't done enough work in my life in CS. I want to know how this works! It's so cool!

<comment><USER28> I'll bet the details took a lot of work but conceptually it isn't hard to understand at all. There is a bug which causes the game to jump into a bad address. The goal then becomes to manipulate the game so that this bad address happens to contain valid code, then trigger the bug.

You don't really need to know how RAM works to understand that. How assembly programming or Von Neumann architecture works perhaps. Or basic knowledge of buffer overflows and similar concepts.

<comment><USER27> Yeah sure. I guess what I really meant was I don't know how to even start to debug the ram to understand where the addresses are, and what each part does.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Brilliant. The fish segment is comic gold.

</comment><comment><USER30> For the curious / lazy with youtube-dl, the video id is "Syo5sI-iOgY".

</comment><comment><USER31> i dislike these speed runs, if they are going to do one they should at least play through the game properly.

<comment><USER32> You can find plenty of non-exploit speed runs if you prefer them. If you don't like this kind, might I suggest not watching them?

<comment><USER31> i get what you mean. everyone has their preference and thier right to it.

an analogy would be like a runner taking a taxi during a marathon.

<comment><USER12> More like materializing a taxi out of thin air and then riding it through buildings to the finish line.

At that point the focus is no longer on the running aspect of the race.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Being stubborn with investors - <AUTHOR>

First time startup, needing advice.
A big part of the experience has been dealing with the volume and variety of advice we get - when to act, when to ignore, when to placate.
Well, an angel investor who has promised (terms written etc) to lead and anchor a seed round for us is asking us to fundamentally change our product and has said that unless we do it, he doesn't want to get involved anymore.
To summarize as briefly as possible: We make private social networks and the investor wants us to limit who can create a group because he thinks it's too risky to allow any user to make a group (in case they make an offensive/inappropriate group). We think that there are ways to address that risk without limiting who can make a group. We have a flagging/moderation tools for the customer, standard social networking TOS that indemnifies the company and customer for any content a user makes, a usage policy developed with the customer, and all users use their real names. This is standard practice with Yammer and other competitors. Limiting who can create a group does not stop anyone from posting inflammatory content as post, event, or comment. Limiting who creates a group creates an unnecessary barrier for users. We have confirmed this with current customers.
The investor either does not understand or sees something we don't because this is not enough for him. He insists we're wrong and believes it's a "no brainer."
Is he right? How do handle this situation? We want (need) him involved but perhaps he does not share our vision? Or perhaps we need to be more flexible with our vision? <comment><USER2> This investor sounds like they're going to be a hassle to deal with throughout the life of your company, so you may be better off without him. It's one thing to offer your advice as an investor, and another to threaten to pull out because of it.

I think you should always consider his viewpoint, but ultimately the decision needs to rest with you. You (should) know your customers better than anyone else.

</comment><comment><USER3> You should take money from investors that trust you to make the right decisions. Ultimately you are responsible for the success of the company. Decisions should be made with the customer as your priority and not the opinions of any investors or advisors.

</comment><comment><USER4> "We want (need) him involved but perhaps he does not share our vision? Or perhaps we need to be more flexible with our vision?"

Do you "need" him or his money? I can understand needing money but cannot understand needing someone who does not know your field/customers better than you, yet wants to force a significant product change. Which = someone who does not respect/have confidence in you. If you've got traction, find other investors; locally, get your AngelList game on, etc.

Likewise, being flexible with the _path_ to your vision shouldn't be confused with changing your vision on a whim (someone else's for that matter).

</comment><comment><USER5> I would use a cliche: be yourself. As in be how you would be with any business partner. Be polite. Be open to suggestions and critic. But just as you would not cut an unfair deal with another business partner: do not cut an unfair deal with an investor.

Investors unlikely like pushovers. Also there is shortage of great investment opportunities: especially in growth capital stage. So if you have got there (1-5 mn+ revenue) you are in a sweet spot.

</comment><comment><USER6> The investor has told you he doesn't want to invest in your idea.

That's a "no".

Time to move on to your next investor prospects.

</comment><comment><USER7> If you really want him on board, then agree to this change. I don't think this makes your vision change that much.

And maybe letting you choose who can create a group will also rise the quality of the groups. However, I agree with you that adding this mechanism won't help much in offensive content prevention, but it can put some users away if they can't create a group right away.

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately from our view, it changes the vision a lot.

Our networks are built for universities and a big way we differentiate from other solutions (in which only chartered organizations can make a group) is we allow informal groups (study groups, interest groups, topic discussions, etc) on the system.

Based on our beta, a large percentage of groups are informal and would not be chartered by the university. Yammer does not limit who can create a group, for that reason we are more wary of them as competition.

<comment><USER7> Oh, I hadn't got the part in which these small networks depend on a superset (ie university), I thought you were validating people yourselves.

In this case this change entails a higher leap. Then, consider talking again in how different is his proposition from what you want to achieve, and how better it is for him (as an investor who wants his investment to succeed) to go your way, not his way. Well, I assume you've already done that, but do it again. You should win him to your side or skip him.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> _> Or perhaps we need to be more flexible with our vision?_

Famous last words, I think. This strikes me as a gigantic red flag. If an investor is willing to pull out over something as simple as this, what do you think will happen when your company is actually struggling and needs help?

</comment><comment><USER9> "unless we do it, he doesn't want to get involved anymore." >>> From first- hand experience, this is the warning sign. Does this sound like the start of a good relationship to you? Are you ready to ride this out for years?

</comment><comment><USER10> 1\. He's wrong.

2\. Even if he was right, you should still RUN AWAY. If your investor wants to run your business, he's not an investor you want.</comment>


South Korea Slaps Our Fat American Face - <AUTHOR> http://mikecanex.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/south-korea-slaps-our-fat-american-face/

<comment><USER2> This in turn is quite unsurprising, given that these countries who knows the value that a very good internet connection can do for their people would always take the lead in ensuring the betterment of their general populace rather than simply making the businesses that run them earn so much while providing so little.

US may have invented the internet but they stopped innovating in the name of making big bucks but for a few.</comment>


Introducing Chartify: Easier chart creation in Python for data scientists - <AUTHOR> https://labs.spotify.com/2018/11/15/introducing-chartify-easier-chart-creation-in-python-for-data-scientists/ <comment><USER2> Minor gripe - These sort of tools always deride matplotlib a bit, but often show outright incorrect examples of using it.

Admittedly, the "right" way of doing it is quite clunky as well:

        ax.xaxis.set(major_formatter=StrMethodFormatter('{:0.0f}%'))

The example shown teaches very bad habits. It doesn't change the tick label formatting at all. It makes the ticks and labels static. There's a big difference, and it's obvious as soon as you interact with the plot (i.e. zoom/pan around - you won't get new ticks/labels).

I agree that matplotlib isn't the right choice for web-based visualization, but let's not pretend it makes static plots. It's a very, very highly interactive desktop visualization package, and oriented towards building desktop applications that can produce publication-quality plots.

All that having been said, this looks pretty neat.

<comment><USER3> As someone who uses matplotlib to make plots pretty frequently (but also struggles getting it to do the right thing often, most likely due to accumulation of bad habits), can you recommend a good resource to learn the good habits? It seems like there are n different ways to do everything - I'd love to learn to work more efficiently.

<comment><USER4> Unless you're making high quality prints I would recommend staying away from matplotlib. That's it's purpose and if you ever use large amounts of data it slows to a crawl. It's a real shame that it's the default plotter for pandas. I imagine I've wasted a full 24 hours in total for plots to show up over the past few years.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Built on top of Bokeh, so if you do need more control you can always fall back on Bokeh's API.

[https://github.com/spotify/chartify/](https://github.com/spotify/chartify/)

APL2 licensed.

no relation with [https://chartify.github.io/chartify/](https://chartify.github.io/chartify/)

</comment><comment><USER5> I have not used a ton of Bokeh, but why would I want to learn yet another plotting library?

Add this to the end of a list of competing graphics libraries including ggplot2, seaborn, base matplotlib, etc...

<comment><USER6> Bokeh interactive tools are much nicer than matplotlib and its children. Also it has a js backend so you can more easily integrate into a website.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Finding Seaborn [1] after toiling for hours with Matplotlib for some convoluted plots was a godsend. Of course the moment you wanted anything off the beaten path you'd still have to fall back to Matplotlib API but Seaborn would provide an excellent starting point.

All in all I'm really happy to see high-level wrappers tailored to data- scientists.

[1]: [https://seaborn.pydata.org/](https://seaborn.pydata.org/)

</comment><comment><USER8> I did some digging and am still somewhat confused. What does spotify have to do with these types of projects? Seems like it has nothing to do with their music streaming business.

<comment><USER7> Spotify gets heaps of data from users so I'm sure they do a bunch of data- science stuff in the background. For example their `Discover Weekly` feature is most likely powered by such analytics and possibly some ML.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I guess this is occupying the same space as Holoviews and Plotly (which are both bokeh wrappers, among other things).

<comment><USER10> Plotly isn't a bokeh wrapper. I believe it sits on top of D3.

<comment><USER9> Ah, my bad. I jumped to conclusions because HoloViews has both bokeh and plotly backends.</comment></comment></comment>


Shane and Tereasa – TableFiller – ES, EU, NZ – Have_idea – Social Events - <AUTHOR> Hi everyone we are building the first platform for cafes, bars and restaurants to make their off peak tables on-demand. (better!) <comment><AUTHOR> [https://tablefiller.com/partner-guide](https://tablefiller.com/partner-guide)</comment>


E-Waste Empire - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/22/11991440/eri-e-waste-electronics-recycling-nyc-gadget-trash <comment><USER2> I began my career in a company called Yamin in Singapore that had a refurbished electronics business.

At first, I was shocked that Americans can throw away 1 year old and even half year old goods in the dumpster. In 2.5, years time I managed to make enought money of my commission selling refurbished cellphones to Russia through Alibaba to move to Canada and enrol into college.

<comment><USER3> [http://articles.latimes.com/1987-11-15/news/mn-20827_1_gomi-...](http://articles.latimes.com/1987-11-15/news/mn-20827_1_gomi- pile)

People used to furnish their entire apartments with other people's trash in Japan in the 1980s.

<comment><USER4> Reminds me of spermuhl in Germany in the late 80's/early 90's. I taught myself electronics by fishing out treasures from the bounty of German neighborhoods' "bulk garbage" days and tearing them down. I got a good dose of design along with it because a lot of it was Braun from the 60's & 70's.

Memories.

<comment><USER5> > spermuhl

The word you're looking for is 'Sperrmüll'. And I agree, it's good fun to hunt for treasures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I hope component level circuit board repair continues to grow in popularity and accessibility. Damage and failure which cause devices to be thrown away can often be fixed by a skilled person with specialized microsoldering equipment.

But electronics manufacturers in general seem to be opposed to this idea, preferring that people dispose of products after a few years and buy something new, and often taking measures to actively discourage people from fixing their devices. Not only is this anti-consumer, it further promotes e-waste.

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjp41qeXe1o_lp1US9TpWA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjp41qeXe1o_lp1US9TpWA)

[https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup](https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup)

[http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-fix- everything](http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-to-fix-everything)

<comment><USER7> Repair labor cost can easily exceed the cost of a new item.

<comment><USER8> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11958405](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11958405) rather contradicts that. Repair _in the West_ more expensive than a new item, I can believe. But once it's shipped back to the land of cheap labour the economics are different.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This vaguely condemns sending scrap metals abroad with "were safety standards are lax in comparison.", but it makes sense to do so. Having them mine and smelt new ore is hardly a desirable outcome, either from a safety or environmental standpoint.

And surprisingly, it can actually be cheaper to send scrap to China than a US smelter because of the imbalance of trade. The ships would be mostly empty on the return tip if not for scrap materials being sent back. Circle of life.

</comment><comment><USER10> This is actually also an issue in the Silicon Valley, where you see lots of startups throwing away perfectly functional electronics because they reached enterprise end-of-life or they raised a new round and want to buy everyone the latest laptop.

I work at OpThrift ([https://opthrift.com](https://opthrift.com)) where we help people buy high-quality used laptops, and startups throwing equipment away is one of our biggest supply sources. Half of the time, they don't even care about what price they get and just want us to get the devices out of their office.

<comment><USER11> Nice website design.

Do you offer any non-mac laptops by any chance? I've put in a request.

<comment><USER10> Yes! We emphasise MacBooks because it's easier to find supply for those (and we tend to find better discounts), but that's what our "other" tab is for :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> That last picture made me cringe thinking of all the toxic material that person must be coming in contact with.</comment>


Ask HN: Analytics for Google Spreadsheets? - <AUTHOR> Hey HN!
Looking for analytics tools/scripts for Google Spreadsheets. I want to know how many people view the table and retention of ppl who has access to the private table.
Any suggestions? <comment><AUTHOR> Anyone? :)</comment>


Beware the 'mother of all credit bubbles' - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/beware-the-mother-of-all-credit-bubbles/2018/06/08/940f467c-69af-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9acb469a0c84 <comment><USER2> there is nothing wrong with stock buy-backs. If you don't know what to do with your cash - give back to investors, so they could invest it elsewhere.</comment>


Bloomberg News will avoid investigating Mike during his presidential campaign - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/bloomberg-news-will-avoid-investigating-mike-bloomberg-during-his-presidential-campaign/2019/11/24/3314962a-0edf-11ea-b0fc-62cc38411ebb_story.html <comment><USER2> Not only will they not investigate Bloomberg or his family they will not do the same to any of his Democratic opponents. I honestly cannot think of any other statement to set off accusations of a one sided press than this, what were they thinking?</comment>


Show HN: Brainstorm Troubles - <AUTHOR> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EYyS4AtRhNa6i299R_RB0a54ePU2PEQsILQnwWgY9KU/edit#slide=id.p <comment><USER2> Excellent presentation! Have you read "gamestorming" type books that catalog the methods invented by creatives for arriving at human centered design solutions? Thoughts on using the methods in these books to derive insights over that of "classical brainstorming" which seems akin to focus groups?

What about "design thinking"? What about methods used by creative agencies such as IDEO,to come up with human centered solutions? Thanks, I appreciate your opinion and sharing of this presentation as a UX designer with a background in HCI, trapped in an uninspired and aging tech company trying to get them to think differently or die trying.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really need to learn to write more concisely...

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> These are the slides of a lecture I gave to design students about all the issues I have with brainstorming (in its most common form). It was originally created for design students at Malmö University a couple of years ago. Given the position I _had_ to spend time teaching them how to brainstorm, despite not believing in it myself and hating just about every brainstorm session I ever suffered through.

Since that's not exactly a good starting point for teaching others, I decided to do my homework into what brainstorming really is (a teacher doing his homework - the educational equivalent of "dogfooding"). The slides turned it into this, and it has since evolved a bit.

It got some unexpected attention this afternoon when I shared it in a comment elsewhere[0]. Seems like it struck a chord with many here, and I was asked to submit it separately.

I'm no guru on the topic, just a (former) interaction design teacher who did his homework for the lectures he gave. I don't know much more than the slides I share here, but I hope they're of interest to others.

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15237174](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15237174)</comment>


Lisp Machine Manual (1984) - <AUTHOR> https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/title.xml <comment><USER2> "Some find this notation verbose and distasteful, while others find it flexible and convenient." \--loop</comment>


Peter Thiel's CS183: Startup - Class 13 Notes Essay - <AUTHOR> http://blakemasters.tumblr.com/post/23435743973/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-13-notes-essay

<comment><USER2> Amazing lecture. This is the first time I've heard of anyone solving the problem of avoiding getting stuck at the local maximum.</comment>


Why every startup should adopt Amazon's 14 Leadership Principles, with examples - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@MarcHoag/why-every-startup-should-adopt-amazons-14-leadership-principles-with-examples-cc458b6d821f <comment><USER2> Good God no! In theory each isn't so bad, but cult-like memorization/regurgitation and the use of each as an internal political weapon is the Amazon way. (Seattle-ite with a number of Amazon and (of course) ex- Amazon acquaintances.)

<comment><AUTHOR> So that was totally my initial reaction as well; I just didn't feel like dwelling on it. :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The fact that there are 14 is already a dilemma... its like pick and choose your weapon.

<comment><AUTHOR> heh yeah, that was my initial reaction too :)</comment></comment>


Pigeons with Rucksacks Measure London's Air Quality - <AUTHOR> http://www.pigeonairpatrol.com <comment> J-dawg In Lima they have vultures looking out for illegal rubbish dumps. [1]

Is the use of animal "volunteers" the natural next step for the sharing economy?

[1] [http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jan/29/drowning- rubbi...](http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/jan/29/drowning-rubbish-lima- vultures-gopro-video-cameras)

<comment><USER2> It's a great workaround for bans on quadrocopters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Pigeons With Rucksacks would make an awesome band name.

</comment><comment><USER4> Yes, they do tweet you the results

<comment><USER5> Optionally via Carrier Pigeons or Owl Post for the few without internet access.

<comment><USER6> IP over Avian Carriers: [https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt](https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt)

<comment><USER7> As I recall, packet loss was the main issue, as the packet size was enormous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Cutesy copy written from pigeon perspective: "So don't worry, we love flying, we're pigeons after all." But serious copy about needing bicyclists as beta testers -- is the pigeon deal a publicity stunt, or a real situation?

</comment><comment><USER9> Super interesting, shame both my home and work are engulfed in moderate pollution :/

Also a possible major UI fail (unless it's just me): I can't move the map.

<comment><USER10> Not just you. I'm guessing the map wasn't intended to be moved, but if that's the case, hovering shouldn't show the hand cursor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> They cant spell dioxide, and theyre not measuring pm2.5 theres a site at heathrow that does measure pm2.5 [http://www.heathrowairwatch.org.uk/data/graphs](http://www.heathrowairwatch.org.uk/data/graphs)

<comment><USER12> Particulates are usually at larger concentration at ground level; not sure if using variable-height sampling would make sense there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Damn couldn't they be used for mesh internet in cities?

</comment><comment><USER14> Tiny pigeon backpacks! Cute!

</comment><comment><USER15> Get your website in check. Using that much of my CPU on idle is ridiculous. [https://s3.amazonaws.com/coda- files/2016-03-14_12-33-55.png](https://s3.amazonaws.com/coda- files/2016-03-14_12-33-55.png)

<comment><USER16> Same here. AFAIK the page seems to be constantly updating itself even when idle.

<comment><USER17> Not much impact on my CPU in Firefox (+5% or so), but it's using 60% of my GPU/graphics card....</comment></comment></comment>


When Does a Depression or a Recession End? - <AUTHOR> http://correspondents.theatlantic.com/richard_posner/2009/08/when_does_a_depression_or_a_recession_end.php <comment><USER2> He makes a good point that just because GDP begins to rise it doesn't mean that we should stop worrying, but I don't really like his definition of when we say the recession is over. He wants it to be:

"when GDP returns to (or near) its trend line"

But I think we'd be better served by waiting till the economy is growing at its regular rate (according to Posner, about 3% annualized). That is when we know that the economy is growing appropriately.

His other comments on the history of the words "depression" and "recession" are very interesting.</comment>


Leaked: An Intel and AMD Desktop GPU Joint Venture - <AUTHOR> https://wccftech.com/amd-project-canis-flagship-intel-joint-venture/ <comment><AUTHOR> We've heard crazy rumors like this in the past, and been disappointed.

If we really are looking in the ballpark of 50 TFLOPS (single precision) for $1k, however, it'll probably bring a change in how ML tools are supporting AMD GPUs.

</comment><comment><USER2> This is probably an April Fools.

<comment><AUTHOR> Gah... You're probably right. It was early enough on March 31 that I didn't think about it.</comment></comment>


The Last Working Olivetti Mainframe Sits In a Tuscan High School - <AUTHOR> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/tech-history/silicon-revolution/when-the-history-of-computing-comes-alive <comment><USER2> This reminds me of the beautiful WITCH a.k.a the Harwell Dekatron which sits in the national museum of computing in the UK. It's sadly overshadowed by the much larger bletchley park museum that is just next door but it contains the original working COLOSSUS and other really early computing efforts. But the reason I love the WITCH is that all of it's memory is stored in decimal using dekatron memory, and it glows with numbers, allowing you to see the memory and registers being shifted around as it operated. Combining this with the awesome debug stepper that is literally a physical button to move onto the next cpu instruction or sub-instruction, and you can really get a sense for the early computer architecture and how ideas for CPU design came about.

<comment> a-dub I don't think the collosus at Bletchley is actually original. IIRC, most of the working big machines at Bletchley were reproduced from memory (story goes that all the machines and plans were destroyed after the war because it was "too dangerous" to have them fall into the wrong hands) by the retired telephony engineers who worked on the originals as a sort of hobby club for retirees.

There was a full time guy named Tony Sale who I think organized these efforts who would be there hacking away on stuff and was happy to talk about all of it...

<comment><USER3> It is a reconstruction -- built from components similar to those of the original machines, but probably varying from the originals in minor detail because the original plans were also destroyed. The rebuild project and the fate of the original machines is summarized briefly in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer#Influence_an...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer#Influence_and_fate)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting. Some technological firsts. Nice design aesthetics. Good corporate culture. Then double whammy bus factor.

[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivetti_Elea](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivetti_Elea)

<comment><USER5> Olivetti, in general, is such a tragic story for any Italian tech enthusiast. In many ways they were the original Apple: focusing on aesthetics, design and usability; turning a pretty unsexy commodity such as the typewriter into a luxury good; opening sophisticated "Olivetti stores" in high-end shopping venues such as Manhattan or Paris; and so on.

But by the end of the 80s the writing was on the wall: the Italian system could not support a world-class tech player.

<comment><USER6> "But by the end of the 80s the writing was on the wall: the Italian system could not support a world-class tech player."

There are many that believe - including Olivetti employees back then, according to documented sources - that the US system did in fact "un-support" it to favor IBM, considering the demise of Olivetti is to be mainly attributed to the sudden death of the Italo-Chinese (CEO and CTO) heads of the Olivetti electronics division, in less than clear circumstances.

From: [https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Tchou](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Tchou)

"Nel 2013 Carlo De Benedetti dichiarò a un programma radiofonico: "In Olivetti c'era la convinzione che fosse stato ucciso dai servizi segreti americani"[6], ipotizzando che l'incidente di Tchou fosse stato in qualche modo provocato per favorire l'IBM[7]."

Consider that in these years, Italy was a Cold War playground where secret services of US/Nato on one side and Russia/China on the other, were actively taking part in multiple underground large scale operations.

<comment><USER7> There's nothing Italy loves more than a good conspiracy theory.

<comment><USER8> Probably because for those familiar with Italy's history, conspiracies have been proven again and again, including in courts.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due#Criminal_organi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due#Criminal_organization)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli#Suspicious_ci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli#Suspicious_circumstances_surrounding_his_death)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Andreotti#Trial_for_Maf...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Andreotti#Trial_for_Mafia_association)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Andreotti#Trial_for_mur...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Andreotti#Trial_for_murder)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal)

And that's not even getting into mafia itself, its ties with judges, state and municipal governments and so on (a whole book on its own), church scandals, and so on...

Americans, who naively believe in the innocence of states and big corporate interests and disbelieve in political conspiracies and cover ups (despite some of their own elite's shit having been exposed time and again, from Hoover's blakmails and politician surveillance to the Watergate, and from Iran-Contra to Abu Ghraib on to Snowden), should probably refrain from commenting on places like Italy...

<comment><USER7> I think the difference is that a lot of people in Italy will go straight for the conspiracy theory. Maybe that's why the anti-vax movement (and chemtrails and a lot of other nonsense) is so strong there.

I mean... 'dietrologia' is a thing there: [https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/03/15/dietrologia](https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/03/15/dietrologia)

Just because some things really were plots doesn't mean everything is.

Another nice piece on conspiracy theories: [https://www.economist.com/christmas- specials/2002/12/19/that...](https://www.economist.com/christmas- specials/2002/12/19/thats-what-they-want-you-to-believe)

<comment><USER8> > _Just because some things really were plots doesn 't mean everything is._

No, but it does make one "Once bitten twice shy" so to speak!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's amazing that it's still working. Transistors in 1959 had a high reject rate. But, apparently, a long life if they worked.

</comment><comment><USER10> My first job in Silicon Valley was at Olivetti Advanced Technology in Cupertino, CA way back in 1988 (after I moved from Long Island aerospace work). They were quite a company in their day, known for their aesthetic design, too. They _could_ have been Apple if their management didn't all end up in jail.

</comment><comment><USER11> > To forestall that eventuality, a local group called the Associazione Amici > dell'Olivetti ELEA 9003 is raising funds

While I can understand how the nostalgia factor elicits this kind of behaviour, I can't help but think there are many better causes.

<comment><USER12> Yeah, but there aren't _that_ many working installations of historic mainframes in the world. By a consequence of serendipity, that school now is now the custodian of a piece of computer history. They probably can't keep it indefinitely, and will likely pass it on to someplace like a museum that will continue to maintain it in some form.

I am glad that there are people willing to keep a decent representative sample of big-iron machines in working order.

<comment><USER11> This is a fair point. I agree that I certainly wouldn't want this machine to just go into the scrap heap :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have to ask this - while it is super cool to see such an old computer able to be up and running, isn't this a waste of the school's money? Doesn't just running it take an enormous amount of electricity? Wouldn't a $300 PC have about a million times the processing power, and be easier to service and easier for modern users to use? And doesn't it use about 1/1,000th the electricity?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they still keep this thing running for history's sake, but am a little surprised it's worth the time for a high school to do it.

<comment><USER14> On one hand it is wasting enormous amount of space and electricity, on the other its one in a lifetime learning prop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> For those asking 'why should I care about ancient Olivetti' I can point you at the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STMicroelectronics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STMicroelectronics), grandchild of original Olivetti SGS silicon fab established in 1957 in order to supply transistors/diodes for ELEA 9003 mainframe.

Nerds will know ST for excellent STM32 ARM microcontrollers. Back in the day you could spot their logo on clone 486 CPUs and NVIDIA RIVA 128 chip.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm italian. It would be a nice weekend trip going to tuscany to see it!

<comment><USER16> There is a great Italian history in making cool machines, including computers.

My colleague is living in Milan and I told him about the Computer Museum in Pisa. He's on a mission to get there now.

</comment></comment><comment> King-Aaron The advert which was served on the page completely broke Chrome for me and made my cpu usage skyrocket :-/

</comment><comment><USER17> Wow, 60 years old now. Is there any older computer still working, outside a museum?

<comment><USER18> Yes, as least as of 2012, in Texas a small business was using an IBM 402 (circa 1948) to do accounting. [https://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if-it- aint-broke-dont...](https://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if-it-aint-broke- dont-fix-it-ancient-computers-in-use-today.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I hate stories written this way! I feel like I'm about 1/3 of the way through and it just stops. Someone had to write 800 words and, gosh darn it, exactly 800 words were written

I'd love to have learned more in this story

I know people that collect PDPs, and I used to have a small collection of 80s personal computers myself.

This stuff is interesting in many ways - what word size is used? I/O, storage, core memory, valves, mercury delay lines, anything else?

These were the wild-west days of computers, and there was little in the way of standard components. But this article barely scratched the surface of what this computer has

Gives me something to do tomorrow I guess

<comment><USER20> Maybe it feels like it ends half way because that article is mainly about the computer historian Elisabetta Mori.

See this [1] for the article she wrote on the ELEA 9003. It was also linked to in the original article.

[1] [https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon- revolution/th...](https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon- revolution/the-italian-computer-olivettis-elea-9003-was-a-study-in-elegant- ergonomic-design)

<comment><USER21> This is a much better article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> A working computer from 1959.... astonishingly cool.</comment>