Ask PG: How would you have started Reddit/HN without your existing audience? - <AUTHOR> Both Reddit and HN were seeded by people who read your essays (I was there for both).
How would you have advised "The Muffins" to overcome the chicken and egg problem without the assistance of your audience and YC's press attention?
I know they simulated user activity using fake accounts to overcome the "ghost town" effect. How could they have attracted the first critical few thousand users without leveraging an existing audience?
From your office hours talk I suspect you may suggest finding an especially enthusiastic niche audience at first. Certainly Reddit was all startup/hackers.
The problem is: how do you actually go about getting that targeted audience on the site in big enough numbers to jump-start the virtuous cycle?
(I'm really curious to hear PG's answer, but also love input from others as well.) <comment><USER2> _How could they have attracted the first critical few thousand users without leveraging an existing audience?_

Borrow someone else's existing audience.

There are a couple ways to do this. The most straightforward is literally asking them for it. Somewhat surprisingly, people do say "yes" to this. (Joel Spolsky had a subreddit back in the early days, to share links with his fans. </trivia>)

There are various flavors of this in many services. Lady Gaga says all good little monsters follow her on Twitter, etc.

There are, of course, less savory options. The go-to option for many people is spamming Craigslist.

<comment><USER3> This.

When you get right down to it, all marketing is finding an audience that someone else has, and borrowing it. If I'm buying AdWords ads, it's Google's audience, if I'm getting press in the NYT, it's theirs, if I'm putting up billboards in the middle of London, it's the M4's traffic into the city.

The key is threefold: 1. audience interest & profile compatibility, 2. clear conversion points, and 3. a UVP.

Breaking those down:

1\. What you're pushing out, and the interests of the audience, have to be aligned. So if you're launching a new HN-style area, you need to know who your audience are (probably dissatisfied HN-ers, some people from Reddit, programmers etc), and identify where those people are (HN, GitHub, Engadget, Bit-tech, Twitter...) and how you can reach them (ad platforms, publicity on blogs that they read, referrals, recommendations from trusted sources).

Understanding your users is key, both in being able to find them, and being able to serve them when they reach you.

2\. Know what your points of conversion are. Is it getting someone on to the site? Is it having them sign up for something? Registering an account? Downloading something? Leaving comments? Starting threads? All these things are valid conversions, but it's important to know which ones you want to look at, and which ones are just going to be distractions.

Also, what are you going to do with this data? How about setting up a notifier for your first 250 users, when you reach that point, so you can email them all in person and thank them for coming along? Think about what you want to do with the data you collect, before you collect it. Data without purpose is just time invested for no gain.

3\. What's your UVP (Unique Value Proposition)? Why should people come to you instead of wherever else is available? Audience quality? Signal to Noise ratio? Curation of content? Design? Features? What's the benefit that you offer over someone else?

If you can't convey this clearly, you're going to have problems. It's rare to get something like Twitter's early days where downtime and a confusing message is overcome by audience enthusiasm and the community doing your messaging for you. Ensure that you know what you want to tell people, and how you're going to do it.

Hope this helps.

<comment><USER4> That's a great contribution and really worthy of a blog post in it's own right.

But what's with the first (single word) paragraph? It seemed to me as particularly arrogant... really threw me off. I'm sure I misunderstood you intention, but it almost prevented me from reading the rest of what you had to say.

But I'm glad I got past that.

<comment><USER5> "This" as the start of a reply is shorthand for "the comment I'm replying to makes a very good point that I agree with entirely" (and usually "and here's my take on what (s)he wrote"), rather than "what you are about to read is the answer you are looking for".

<comment><USER6> "This." is shorthand for "This is how:"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I am well on my way to 5000 members on <http://www.weekendhacker.net>

I started by posting it here, forrst, startupguild and HN FaceBook group then I got picked up by a couple of other places and used that to then ask yet other places to have a look.

People have so far been very positive and that have helped me gain even more traction. It also help that I have actually connected all projects in need of help with someone who have offered to help.

Next step is to write about all the things I have learned from it. I am working on the website (got people to help me there in the spirit of WH)

What I have learned is 3 things.

1\. Create as little friction for sign-up as possible. Be concise. Be personal. Be honest. The majority of my signups read the FAQ.

2\. Think about social very broadly. For instance with WH I am sending out a mail with the projects structured, curated etc. Instead of people having to go to the website all the time, they receive a mail with the projects. So right now I am not depending on traffic. I am depending on making sure that everyone who have a project get offered help. (100% success rate so far). If it works by mail it will work by other means too.

3\. Create boundaries for what your site is about. WeekendHacker is for very small projects. It might expand later on but now we are keeping it simple and exploring how far that will take us.

Hope this helps. I will make a bigger post about it all and then numbers next week.

<comment><USER8> How exactly did you learn any of that? Random guesses? Maybe the thing you should have learned here is to put the FAQ on the same page?

Simply because it is a mailing list at the moment and still chugging along doesn't mean this is superior. You basically created something naturally suited to being a website, but forced it into into mailing list form.

As for 'not having to go to the site all the time', there is an established solution for this. RSS.

<comment><USER7> Maybe I have experience, maybe I track things, maybe Email is more popular than rss. But why the attitude?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I probably would have suggested that they get all the other startups in their batch + a few friends each + more than a few of the Reddits' friends. 20 + 40 + 30 = 90, which probably would have been enough.

</comment><comment><USER10> I strongly believe it's a matter of what you offer. You can tell everyone about your site, but if something of quality isn't there, people have no reason to stay. There are plenty of options.

My community site (hubski.com) is starting to get some energy after a few months. Personally, I believe it's because my view of the site has changed a bit. A bit of digression...: I started the site to teach myself programming. I grabbed the HN code, figured it out, and began to change it. I was an early Redditor, have been on HN some time, and I had a number of ideas I wanted to try. Slowly but surely, I began to build something I personally wanted to exist. I now know exactly where I am going. As for a seed community, I was very lucky to have some friends interested in giving feedback and to mess with it. Some were Redditors too. My wife is a loyal active member as well.

I only have a few months of experience, but IMO best way to build community is to engage and importantly, enjoy the site. Take the time to post the kind of things that you really want to see (not just filler content), and definitely take the time to get to know users. I am glad I did, because I've met some very cool people in the effort. You can't fake community. Don't waste your time trying. People can see through it. It's like a restaurant. If the food is good, people will come back.

I don't know what our trajectory will be, but I don't expect a steep climb. Actually, if you want a steep climb, you are in the wrong space, as a steep climb is antithetical to a quality community. At least the type I am interested in. If you are going to build a community, enjoy the process. -If you don't, you probably won't succeed.

</comment><comment><USER11> To start something like HN or Reddit without an existing audience is simple, since this is the kind of service that you can start enjoying even with 10 selected users.

So if you are an hacker, just invite a few of your friends and start sharing links, and the community will start growing...

Soon or later I want to create some kind of no profit organization to create something very similar to HN but with a more open model (not YC focused and so forth) and with more features that can be interesting to experiment with. For now I don't have time for family and work issues, but hope to find some time in the next months.

</comment><comment><USER12> A lot of the jump starting on Reddit came from irc.freenode.org via word of mouth about a new aggregate voting site that needed stress testing, while it was certainly a predominately hacker crowd it wasn't overly dominated by people that read PG essays, I myself wasn't that aware of the PG connection until several months later.

petewailes made some interesting comments, in my humble opinion reddit was likely helped along more by leveraging an existing community that already communicated well than it was by PG essays - although all things helped and I'm sure the essays played their part as well.

</comment><comment><USER13> Another option, albeit expensive and time consuming, is to start snowballing by reaching out to users in person. For example, we ran many in-person programming workshops for kids using scratch.mit.edu and now we have more than 800,000 users.

</comment><comment><USER14> _I'm really curious to hear PG's answer, but also love input from others as well._

Thanks for emboldening my reply. I am not at all in pg's league as an influencer of online communities, but I've had a personal website with information and a point of view since 1995, and have been very active in online communities since before most members of the general public had ever heard of the Internet. (I started out on commercial online services.) Any online community allows an opportunity for a member to become conspicuous by contributing good content. Quite a few online communities are organized around an initial common interest everyone has (e.g., homeschooling or education reform or gifted education in the communities I'm most active in) and every community broadens its topic scope over time as people form friendships and share other interests.

Were I to set up a social news forum (presumably as a subpart of my personal website, to which I have devoted very little maintenance attention for years), I would announce that first to my 566 Facebook friends, most of whom I have met in online communities. (Many of them I have since "face met" at conferences around the country about the issues we all care about.) Many of them would be good moderators of a forum, and would be happy to help in return for finding new, good content and sharing that with a broader community of readers. I'll have to try the experiment, as soon as my busy technical adviser (my oldest son) squeezes some time together to upgrade my website.

P.S. Is there already a good site of this nature for news and discussion about education policy, or will I have to build my own? There is no sense in reinventing that wheel if a good wheel is already available.

</comment><comment><USER15> What we are asking here is a subset of the question "how to I advertise?," with the condition that we don't have existing users to use as an asset.

Seems to me there are two different issues to deal with:

1) How minimise the negative consequences of not having users ("ghost town effect").

\- One option is to structure the product so that the number of users is not obvious. Since at this point there is little value to showing all the users of the system at once, or highlighting aggregate activity, perhaps it's fine to not include these features, or at least not make them prominent. So a UI like StumbleUpon might fare better than one like Digg, where the aggregate activity is shown prominently.

\- Or, pick another MVP with lower critical mass, and then build the community later. Delicious was great because it was useful if only you are using it, but better with others. (though still no where as good as it could be.... Chad, i wish you luck!).

2) what assets can we use (or create) to acquire users efficiently?

Zince we don't have users to work on word of mouth, you have to have something else. Some options:

\- A unique value proposition that will excite someone with influence to give you access to their audience. \- a unique product structure \- a quid pro quo for the influencer

\- A "story" that will entice a blogger to want to talk about you. \- make it controversial (e.g. blippy ) \- make it human interest ( e.g. man sells spot on iPad line using AirBnB).

\- A unique marketing opportunity \- the greatest ever was when Facebook opened up their platform to intense viral (spammy) promotion. \- You may not find a gold vein that rich... but there are always more opening up. Perhaps you were early to find a burgeoning high quality community, and built a persona there with influence.... \- find a news story and attach yourself to it. (reputation.com connected with people who had some crazy bad google results, to the degree they could get into the news. )

\- An asset you have already. OK, you're probably not PG if you are reading this, but maybe you: \- Know a lot of people in area X (which is why that is where you should focus your community). \- Have a good story to tell, and can link it to your product \- Know ONE person who has enough influence to help you if your pitch is good. As a VC I felt like this was a role central to the job, whether I planned to invest or not... everyone loves to help someone that they think should and will succeed.

</comment><comment><USER16> That 'niche strategy' sounds exactly like the advice from "Crossing the Chasm", by the way.

<comment><USER17> >

Which plateform and theme would HN members recommend for creating a Hackernews like on a nice subject ?

Pligg ? <http://www.pligg.com>

Anymore suggestions ?

<comment><USER18> Arc: <http://arclanguage.org/install>

<comment><USER10> This. Or the Reddit source: <https://github.com/reddit/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Having tried and failed two social news sites, and seeing tons of people try social related startups via H&F, I think I have a little to add. I wrote my own niche social news sites (on Django), and they both failed to get initial audiences.

Cuuute.com was going to be a social news site for cute shit (cat, dog pictures, etc...). It failed because I created a text based social news site rather than a image based one, and because after working on it for 4 months, I couldn't look at a kitten picture without wanting to vomit.

Newsley.com was my second attempt. It started out as a social news site for financial news. I worked hard at getting an initial audience for about 6 months. Finance types generally didn't want to talk about financial news, they want the news that's important to them, and they want it now. So, I pivoted to turn Newsley into a financial news search engine. That was going really well. Traffic was (and still) doubles every 6 weeks even though it's crap, alpha and buggy as hell.

Hackers & Founders started exploding this winter, and we had to choose either Newsley or H&F. Having a chance to hack Silicon Valley is a bit too enticing to pass up, so we're focusing on H&F right now. You'll hear from us soon.

The large social news sites, Digg, Reddit, HN have all had large geek audiences at inception. Digg had Kevin Rose's following from TechTV. Reddit and HN got a _huge boost from the people that read pg's writing.

The only other social news site that I'm aware of that's gotten anything close to successful has been Tipd.com. That was started by Digg power user refugees, and focused on a highly monetizeable audience.

Normals don't get social news. They don't get the concept of voting, checking back on a regular basis, and contributing to the conversation. If you're approaching a non-geek niche (like I did for both my social news sites), you're facing an uphill battle. That may change in a year or two as Reddit grows, but Reddit's a juggernaught right now, and it's done a great job of sub-reddit communities.

I firmly believe that starting (like I did) with a social news technology, is the wrong approach. I took a technology and tried to jump start a community around that technology. What I should have done is to create a community and then create technology to support and scale that community.

Adam Rifkin is doing that at 106miles.net for the 106 miles meetup. I'd put a lot of money on him succeeding. Adam has been building the 106 miles community for 6 years and recently opened it up to the public the last 18 months. His team only recently started writing code to support online conversations for that community. Their approach is to build online tools that help their physical community continue interacting.

Start with the community first, and build the technology to support it.</comment>


VircorX: Unifying messaging and organizer for family and friends - <AUTHOR> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vircorx/id1341267683 <comment><AUTHOR> I have been working on integrating messaging and organizer with focus on families and close friends. You can chat, create checklists, events, reminders, notes and share them in the same app. Currently I am in tuning the app towards retention mode.

It is available on iOS app store: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vircorx/id1341267683](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/vircorx/id1341267683)

Bare bones landing page at: [https://vircorx.com](https://vircorx.com)

Would love to hear any feedback at: firstname.lastname@example.com</comment>


Putin's Poland Obsession - <AUTHOR> https://thebell.io/en/putin-s-poland-obsession/ <comment><USER2> Why does this feel like a petulant child attempting to redirect blame?</comment>


Tell HN: A proposed change to assigning karma to submissions - <AUTHOR>

There's a very long thread about karma, submissions, comments, bots, and improving HN over here:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2386443
One of the proposals in particular strikes me as having real potential:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2387216
Problem is, it's deep in a long thread, and not many people will see it.  Hence I post this to help it get some attention.  It's not mine - tt's better than anything I've thought of.
(edited to fix the link (even though it's (not clickable))) <comment><USER2> > _1\. When a link is submitted, it doesn't actually appear on HN until a > certain (fixed?) time T has elapsed after its first submission._

And what is T going to be? That means HN won't be able to react quickly if something unexpected comes up.

> _3\. Karma from article upvotes is shared equally between all those users._

Doesn't that mean people will submit "obvious" links even more often, because shared Karma off a large cake is still easier than making an insightful comment. At least right now, people have to check whether the link was already posted. With this proposal, I'd just have to submit every Slashdot and Quora link known to man and be assured that I'd get karma for it.

> _5\. Breaking news doesn't appear on HN as quickly as it does now; but if > lots of people are submitting it, it still gets in pretty fast. (Maybe good, > maybe bad.)_

I think this is a solution to a non-problem. Even though a duplicate link- checker would be great for HN, the real issue is low-quality links that sometimes make it onto the front page; every once in a while even a submit bot finds something interesting. I'm fine with that, since the overall quality of articles is still very high.

If we're actually complaining about how every blog blurp of certain HN personalities makes it to the front page, then I'm afraid the problem is not with the site's code, but with the way we personally handle reputation around here. And I don't really care which user gets the karma for the next jacquesm story.

</comment><comment><USER3> A much easier change would be to simply not give users karma points for submissions. Karma only for comments.

Those who object saying that there won't be any incentive left for submitting are clearly on HN only for the karma. It won't be so bad to lose them.

<comment><USER4> The other reason in favour of doing that is that comments get both up and downvotes and therefore represent the _net_ perceived value of the user's contributions.

New post submitting is almost guaranteed to be upvoted. (I don't know whether flags give negative karma, but I'm pretty sure people flag less often for different reason)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Clickables:

Proposal: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2387216>

Parent: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2386443>

(edited to fix the link)

</comment><comment><USER5> Link to the proposal goes to a blank page (just the header, no content)

</comment><comment><USER6> I liked my idea better.

The basic proposal is that submissions cost x karma, where x is a predefined value that should be relatively small (say 25, 50?).

To submit a post, you must have at least x karma, and you SPEND that karma on the submission.

If the article is upvoted at least x times, the karma is refunded. If it doesn't, then that karma is gone.

For 'failed' articles (meaning articles that did not get enough upvotes to attain the refund), submissions from that submitter now cost y karma, where y = the previous x * 2.

Assuming x is 25, my second submission after a failed first submission now costs 50 karma, but only has to reach y/2 karma to get the refund. The refund action sets x back to the default, base x value.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree that your proposal will most likely make people think harder before submitting, but it doesn't solve the problem of sharing karma amongst several people who see the same link and perhaps should be equally rewarded. The scheme lunk to here helps to prevent the rush to submit, and therefore allows time for reflection, while simultaneously rewarding people more equitably.

All the schemes proposed have good points and bad points, but I think gjm11's proposal has lots of good points, and some good features that yours doesn't have.

To some extent, of course, it's irrelevant, since none of these are likely to see the light of day. Having said that, gjm11's scheme seems fairly simple to implement.

<comment><USER2> I like bmelton's idea better as well.

> _but it doesn't solve the problem of sharing karma amongst several people > who see the same link and perhaps should be equally rewarded_

I don't see the point why the system should hand out gold stars for effort. Whoever comes first, gets to host the thread. What's wrong with that?

<comment><AUTHOR> Personally, I see that effect as part of the cause of the rush to submit mediocre links, and I don't think bmelton's idea will fix that. Further, rightly or wrongly, I get a vague sense of injustice knowing that one person submits a valuable link and gets loads of karma, while someone else independently submits the same link moments later and gets none at all.

It doesn't seem fair.

I know, life's not fair, and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something, but even so, it nags at me. A good system should be fair, and be seen to be fair. If it isn't, it's like a code smell. Maybe it works, for some sense of "works," but there's probably a better way to do it.

But really, at this point I no longer care. I'll watch the debate with some disinterest.

<comment><USER2> > _But really, at this point I no longer care. I'll watch the debate with some > disinterest._

Come on, don't be like that. You started this thread! Let's just argue the pros and cons, there is nothing personal about that.

> _Personally, I see that effect as part of the cause of the rush to submit > mediocre links, and I don't think bmelton's idea will fix that._

But you said you believed that it will make people think harder before submitting a link, so we basically agree that the number of submissions will come down and people will focus more on what's important to them. bmelton's solution would be easy to implement and easy to understand. It _will_ improve the quality of posts, and it _will_ mean less trash on the /newest page as well, leading to better chances for good material to surface.

By the way, I don't agree with bmelton about the last part where the cost of submission climbs steadily. Just make it a fixed amount. Let's say 20 karma.

The only problem I see with this approach is that it will be easy for people with a lot of karma to abuse the system. Nearly every user name I click on has several thousands of points to spare.

At this point I believe we are in danger of taking this whole karma thing too seriously.

<comment><AUTHOR>
      >> But really, at this point I no longer care.
      >> I'll watch the debate with some disinterest.

      > Come on, don't be like that. You started this thread!

Only because I thought it was an idea with some value.

      > Let's just argue the pros and cons, there is nothing
      > personal about that.

Never said or thought there was.

      >> Personally, I see that effect as part of the cause
      >> of the rush to submit mediocre links, and I don't
      >> think bmelton's idea will fix that.

      > ...

I've just started a point by point reply and I've realised that I really don't care. I'll let people who do care argue the pros and cons - I don't think it matters, it won't change. Besides, if I've learned anything, I've learned that everything I believe about people's behavior is probably wrong.

      > The only problem I see with this approach is that it
      > will be easy for people with a lot of karma to abuse
      > the system. Nearly every user name I click on has
      > several thousands of points to spare.

I first came to this site when PG asked me to submit a link that I'd sent him. If I'd had to accumulate karma before submitting I wouldn't be here. Perhaps that's themain thing that bothers me about such barriers to entry. The really clever people I personally know would mostly just not bother and go elsewhere. Many of the mediocre people would stay, comment, get karma, and feel a sense of accomplishment.

Who would you rather have?

      > At this point I believe we are in danger of taking
      > this whole karma thing too seriously.

But like it or not, it will - and does - drive a lot of the behavior on the site. Getting it right, or even getting it better, would be a Good Thing(tm).

<comment><USER2> > _Besides, if I've learned anything, I've learned that everything I believe > about people's behavior is probably wrong._

What do you mean by that?

> _If I'd had to accumulate karma before submitting I wouldn't be here. > Perhaps that's themain thing that bothers me about such barriers to entry._

Many communities have these barriers and in the occasional situation where HN's submission quality suffers, it's partly due to the fact that people can submit links without limit.

> _I first came to this site when PG asked me to submit a link that I'd sent > him._

I believe most people come here to comment first, then later they discover how to post their own links. It's basic etiquette to find out more about a site's style first before imposing content on it like this. It's highly unusual for (non-spam) users that are not already part of a community to post an article. In your very very special case, this process was inverted because you were specifically invited. PG could easily have given your account a "free karma bonus" to allow you to post.

<comment><AUTHOR>
      >> Besides, if I've learned anything, I've learned that
      >> everything I believe about people's behavior is
      >> probably wrong.

      > What do you mean by that?

Every time I've tried to reason carefully about the effect something will have, or the factors that will drive behavior, or the reasons people will do things, I've been wrong. I've been reading things like Dan Ariely's irrationality pieces, and Freakonomics, and other similar works, and nothing really resonates with me. In discussion with my wife and other close friends the consensus is taht it a very real sense I'm simply "not normal."

So protracted discussions about what might or might not "fix HN" are likely - for me - to be unprofitable. Experiment is essential, and I don't have the means.

Or the time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh !!!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry - dogfood, dogfood - check your work, use what you produce, follow the links properly.

 _Mea culpa_ \- apologies - link now fixed.

</comment><comment><USER7> over engineering to solve what problem?

</comment><comment><USER6> The proposal is taking me to a blank page.

Edit: It's fixed now. Disregard.</comment>


MacBook Pro is a lie - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/7/13548052/the-macbook-pro-lie <comment><USER2> This is just a bit mysterifying as there review of the MacBook pro sans touch said it was perfectly capable for final cut pro, Photoshop, etc. They used the CPUs in the correct thermal envelope for the laptop, except maybe the sans touch model which they said was an air replacement.

The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Edge cases. Not only that but people begrudge them for not waiting for Canonlake* with LPDDR4, but they'd miss the holidays and have to launch in the middle of the year! Intel is continually dropping the ball with deadlines. Is it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year?

These laptops seem more than capable for most professionals, The Verge just seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does something new...

<comment><USER3> When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM's or heavy editing of video?

This is what I don't understand about the current criticism.

I bought my current mac 7 years ago, and though it has dedicated 3D hardware, it was never meant for heavy gaming or rendering 3D movies, and everybody loved it. It also came with very little RAM, even for the time.

But today it is apparently a travesty that MacBook Pro doesn't offer tons of memory and high-end 3D graphics. When did they ever do that? The hall mark of the pro has always been the form factor, battery life, screen, mousepad.

<comment><USER4> > _When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM 's or heavy > editing of video?_

There has been a category of laptops that are classified as mobile workstations for quite some time now, including IBM/Lenovo's retired W5xx series and current Pxx series and Dell's Precision laptops. The MacBook Pro is (or was) considered to be Apple's equivalent.

<comment><USER5> And just for comparison, a 2010 Lenovo W510 already supported 32 GB. The Pxx series currently can do 64.

(But they are heavier, power-hungry and more complicated than the MacBook Pro, which IMHO isn't really in the "mobile workstation" class, but . But in comparable form factor you get 32 GB right now in various ThinkPads. Some new models only offer 16 as well, maybe for similar CPU availability reasons. But you have the choice if you need it.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> As a developer, I really don't see a MacBook Pro any more. They should have really called it a MacBook Air Pro.

Also being a MBPr 2012 owner. When thinking about an upgrade, I was wanting MORE of the same but BETTER specifications.

This is what I am seeing, when I look at the MBP 2016.

\- No magsafe

\- No glowing apple logo

\- No startup chime

\- No SD card slot

\- No HDMI

\- No USB 2/3 ports

\- No 32GB / DDR4 ram

\- No Nvidia graphic card

\- Reduced battery

\- Reduced Keyboard travel

There is nothing that shows "Apple innovation" in this Macbook Pro 2016.

As such, no upgrade from me. I am more than happy to wait another 18 months for the next refresh. I really hope Apple takes on board why developers really loved the previous MBP line.

<comment><USER7> Getting rid of that dreaded chime and glowing logo are the actual Pro-moves :]

<comment><USER8> I'm sad to see the glowing logo go. That was a defining element of MacBooks for me. Visually speaking, nothing really differentiates MacBooks from their Samsung/Dell/etc clones anymore.

<comment><USER9> It was just visual pollution for the people not using the computer. A public disservice. Would you like it, if i walked around and shine a flashlight randomly into your face?

It however also was a good way to separate polite people from the more mindless ones, depending on wether or not they put a sticker or other obstruction on it.

<comment><USER10> Wow, I didn't realize others felt so strongly about this. Now I feel like a rebel for just not covering my glowing Apple logo. That's a good way to start the day.

After attending a hackathon yesterday, I _was_ going to cover my Mac with the stickers I picked up. But just for you, I'm going to leave the logo uncovered.

<comment><USER9> No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my peripheral view, i would talk to you.

Would you refuse, i would not start a fight, but just look for another place or another way to block the view for myself.

If i was Santa Claus, you would however get no gift.

<comment><USER11> >No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my peripheral view, i would talk to you.

That sounds like a pretty heavy safe space invasion. I don't think I'd appreciate you talking to me about my hardware preferences.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is a sincere question: what do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev laptop?

I work on an MBA 11" with 8GB and I'm using Parallels to run Visual Studio 2015 for a work related project (100k+ C#/C++ codebase). Other than that work I do some Haskell and C++ work locally. It chugs along just fine and I don't feel like I'm hurting with it compared to compiling on my dev box at work.

Are people just spinning up a lot of VMs? I've got a beefy box at work for when I need to do heavy lifting because I value battery life on the laptop over doing it locally. Additionally, I like the static context - work on code at work ok beefy workstation then go home and remote in if I still have more to do.

TL;DR: what are people's use cases for 32gb on a laptop if you're a developer? Why not remote into big box?

<comment><USER13> _Why not remote into big box?_

<sigh> Because when you demo, being tied to a box on the other side of the planet is asking for trouble.

I really can't believe the "why do you need that much RAM?" question still gets asked.

<comment><USER14> You can't remote in on most flights, as one example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This macbook pro is incompatible with my current set up and will not be purchased, as I had intended to prior to the launch event. I have 4 mag safe power supplies(I travel with one and I keep one at my desk) it was bad enough when you switched from mag safe one to mag safe 2. I use my Macbook pro to run logic and record and mix audio. I have an internal 256gb mini SD card that stores my samples. I will need dongles for my external ssds, my 2000 dollar UAD apollo 8 and several other USB synthesizers and drum machines. I have 8 years of logic projects that Im not intereted in converting to some other format. I dont think that Apple could have fucked over anyone who makes music much harder.

Oh, and that touch strip? too small for anything but emoticons. I went from being semi excited about this macbook to realizing just how mid grade this thing really is. If the next update doesnt put the features I need back in place, this will be the last of my apple purchases. I've owned a mac pro, 4 macbook pros, every iphone save for the 3g. I like that you make them out of nice materials and strive for better. But you are now just making luxury laptops for consumers, not pros.

</comment><comment><USER16> I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I'm tired of seeing tech press make such ignorant articles re: tech.

> this year's Kaby Lake

You mean the processor which was announced two months before the MBP? The one that isn't available in a mobile processor with quad cores?

> lack of 32gb RAM option

You mean the fact that Intel doesn't support LPDDR4 on Skylake (or even Kaby Lake until ~2018) mobile processors? So was Apple supposed to just switch to desktop class processors in their unrealistically thin laptops? Have you used a laptop with it, they typically run extraordinarily hot and have terrible battery life, even with laptops with twice the battery.

The real story that the new MacBook Pros reveal is that Intel is _REALLY_ dropping the ball. If Apple thought they were ready to switch to ARM, my money is on they would've. The fact they didn't indicates to me that despite every effort, they couldn't yet (yet being the opporative word).

(Now waiting for the downvotes from the folks who'd rather be cry Apple has lost its way rather than actually think about what could be the reasons. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to bash Apple for, but the above two aren't them)

<comment><USER17> I'm pretty sure the mobile CPUs support at least 64GB of DDR3. So the memory subsystem would be desktop class but they could use the same mobile CPUs. Seems to me that might have been an option if they didn't also shrink the battery.

<comment><USER16> Actually, they don't. Per the Intel data sheet [0], the Skylake mobile processors don't even support DDR3, they support DDR3L (lower power variant of DDR3), LPDDR3 (what the MacBook Pro uses), and DDR4. Here's the max system memory per memory type:

DDR3L: 16gb (page 20)

DDR4: 32gb (page 21)

LPDDR3: 16gb (page 21)

So the only way Apple could've supported more than 16gb RAM would've been to support DDR4. [1]

I am far from an expert, but I believe DDR4 is only available in an SO-DIMM package [3]. Sure, we would all _LOVE_ Apple to support upgradeable memory again, but that's very likely not going to happen. Just think how much thicker (teh horror!) the laptop would have to be to support that! [2]

I also suspect that Apple is using the Y-processor line which only supports LPDDR3 memory (per page 19), so that further negates the ability to use DDR4 memory. Again, this part is unconfirmed, but would make sense.

[0] [http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/6th- gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.pdf)

[1] I'm still curious how Intel claims the processor supports up to 64gb RAM on the short form of the processor specs. I could not find a configuration in the detailed data sheets that allowed 64gb of RAM.

[2] (sarcasm intended there, obviously it could be easily thicker and most people wouldn't mind)

Edit:

[3] Seems I likely am wrong. DDR4 is supported in a "Memory Down" configuration as well. This would've allowed Apple to use DDR4 memory if they used a U-processor line and also used DDR4 memory. From what I am reading online (no official sources, so not linking to more speculation), this would've had a battery impact of up to 20%, thus very likely why Apple didn't do it. More info on "Memory Down" here: [http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white- papers/ia-system-memory-down-paper.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> _Many people were clinging on to their aging MacBook Pros in the vain hope of seeing a major spec and performance upgrade that simply didn't materialize, and that 's been frustrating._

This statement is worth pausing on. Many users with "pro" needs (developers, video editors, photographers, etc.) replace their computers on a 3-4 year cycle. It's reasonable to expect significant enhancements related to those pro needs at the end of that cycle.

Furthermore — and this is crucial — any new computer has to serve those pro needs for the _next_ 3-4 years.

<comment><USER19> I'm one of those people. Thankfully I can still do my work on my MacBook Air for a while yet, but my original plan was to buy a MacBook Pro _last year_. Now I'm just hoping I can comfortably continue using my MBA and pray that next year they either lower the prices, do something fancy to the specs, or, ideally, release a _proper_ MacBook Pro (fat chance...).

Worst case scenario I'll just buy the Pro they release next year, though. They probably know that there are many like me who would still go for the Pro even in its current incarnation, so I'm not keeping my hopes up that next year will be anything but an incremental update to the current, shitty Pros.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> There is no magsafe to usb-c adapter which makes the power adapter coming from my Apple Thunderbolt display unusable.

\- have to buy a new power adapter so I don't have to carry one to work and I am still left with an unused wire appendix from the display

\- have to buy a Thunderbolt to USB-C adapter for the display

\- have to buy a new cable to connect iphone or USB stick, HDD, etc. to the laptop

\- have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

\- I can not connect the headphones from iphone 7 because of the missing lightning connector

Hopefully they will realize how broken this is now for existing users and fix some of this nonsense next year.

<comment><USER21> > have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use > the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

Well at least this one is optional. I'm hoping more people opt for the function-key model, so they actually release one with 4 usb-c ports instead of 2. Why did they do that, anyway?

<comment><USER20> Unfortunately it is not optional if you also want the faster CPU.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I understand all the criticism and have held off on pre ordering one myself (still shopping for a good Linux laptop with solid battery and resolution+light weight) but some of the comments seem a bit ridiculous to me.

16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there anything obvious I'm missing? That's even enough to run a couple of VMs with full web stacks and some testbrowsers + git and whatever editor you use

<comment><USER23> Ok, but will it be enough in 5 years? My current MBP lasted 5 years. I'm counting on my next one to be around for 5 years as well. It's something I have to think about since I can't upgrade it to 32gb down the road.

<comment><USER24> 5 years ago 16GB was fine, 16GB is still fine now.

My prediction: In 5 years 16GB will be fine.

Why? Because RAM requirements passed from "We need more, it'll speed things up" to "We've got enough" a while back, and there just isn't much you can do with the extra. Once you're no longer space constrained it just ceases to move the needle.

I'm not defending Apple here, but generally it's hard to think of something that would require 32GB of ram that doesn't better belong on a server. Once you get to that kind of size you'll probably want ECC or stable uptime or other features you'll get on an actual server rather than a machine you turn on and off several times a day.

<comment><USER25> "Who would ever need more than 16KB/MB/GB...."

It's not a question of whether 16GB is sufficient. It's a question of whether 16GB is an reasonable _maximum_ for a "Pro" machine.

OK, forget about expansion and maybe adding 16GB RAM and a few more TB of flash in a couple years. Clearly that ship has sailed.

But 16GB RAM is the absolute minimum I would buy with a new machine today. For that to be the Pro's maximum is wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> With that new Windows Subsystem for Linux feature, I'm honestly starting to consider a post-Mac future for my dev work. I'm sure there are a bunch of things about Windows 10 that will annoy me, but the value proposition of Mac is starting to disappear as Microsoft does better and Apple does worse. If Apple didn't tie iOS dev to its own desktop OS, I might be taking Windows for a spin right now.

<comment><USER27> I recommend just keeping your dev environment in a VirtualBox or VMWare VM that is mobile between physical machines and OS'es. That way you at least get some insurance, AND you get snapshotting and easy backups.

<comment><USER28> Gee, I wish I could run the Mac OS in a VM though. Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS.

(Sorry, I won't call it "macOS" anymore because my marketing services don't come free - I'll continue to refer to it as "the Mac OS" since it's the OS that you can only run on a Mac.)

Windows has a better business model for everybody. You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. It's also a vastly superior OS both technically and with regards to UX for Pro and Business users. For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS and meanwhile, Windows now comes with Ubuntu...and it's fucking awesome!

<comment><USER27> > Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their > overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: > running the Mac OS as the host OS.

Somewhat agree: If Apple considers iOS the current "cash cow", then they should just open-source "macOS" and thereby expand its potential userbase. They could even charge to "certify" certain hardware or VM configs for it, while leaving the rest of the troubleshooting on uncertified hardware to the masses.

> You can run it anywhere you want without restriction.

Hahahaha _no_. I can copy my entire MacOS install/drive to literally any other Mac, or copy it to an external drive and hook it up to ANY Mac, and it boots just fine off it. It doesn't force me to re-validate, it doesn't force me to call Apple, it essentially _doesn 't assume I'm guilty until proven innocent._ You absolutely positively _cannot_ do this with Windows, which makes moving installs (such as to new PC's) ridiculously painful (to any experienced Mac user such as myself). And having to revalidate every time you upgrade your own hardware? LOL.

> It's also a vastly superior OS both technically

OK now you're literally smoking crack. The OS with the most security holes, by far, in history, is "vastly superior." The OS with such incredible UX oversights as _completely removing the ability to shut down from the UI_ if you enable Fast Boot mode (which is really just a renamed "hibernate"), is _superior_ for Pro users? That's just my most recent encounter of hundreds. LOLOLOL. (I use a Windows machine for gaming. Because that's all it's good for- it's too fucking _naggy_ to tolerate if I want to get any actual work done. And forced reboots _without_ saving the entire state of the apps you're running are fucking stupid... at least MacOS has a facility to save the entire state of a running application if there is EVER a need to involuntarily reboot... Which there almost never is.)

> For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils > with the Mac OS

Apparently you don't use a Mac at all for development or you'd know this: _Everyone who 's anyone_ who enjoys UNIX dev on MacOS has long since moved on to Homebrew [http://brew.sh/](http://brew.sh/) which puts all those latest utils into userspace.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Skipping the whole pro-vs-not-pro debate entirely, I never understand the whole 'pros are smart with their money and Mac is poor bang for buck' argument.

If a pro is someone who earns their living through using a computer, what's more important? Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?

<comment><USER2> Every windows laptop I've bought has had a faulty hinge or hard drive failure. I've seen similar things with my girlfriend's computer. My next laptop I want to be more expensive but last half a decade.

Sadly XPS 13 and other "leading" windows laptops seem to fall victim to the same less than perfect manufacturing. Apple charges more, but there laptops are also well built.

Something I use every day for a long time I don't want to save a few bucks on it the short term.

<comment><USER28> Every Windows laptop I've bought has worked perfectly, with zero defects.

Same thing for my wife. And we're both heavy users who use our machines all day for work. We've had every brand of PC and never had any problems. Ever. Not even kidding a little.

The only problems I've ever had were with Apple hardware. Their laptops would overheat and the Mac OS would crash often. In every Macbook Pro I've had, the batteries died sooner than any other laptop brand.

Macbook Pros are terrible overpriced crap. (But they're really thin now, yay!)

Furthermore, upgrades and repairs are next to impossible or a real pain in the butt with Apple hardware. One of my Apple machines is a 2012 Mac Pro that I want to get a new video card for - but can I go to Amazon and just buy one off the shelf? No. I must go to www.macvidcards.com to get a card that works fully. I must also buy special, non-standard internal power cables for it.

<comment><USER2> Of course we're just talking anecdotes, but large surveys back up that Apple just makes more reliable hardware,

[http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability)

<comment><USER28> Sure, but none of my problems with Apple hardware have had anything to do with reliability.

The fact that various Macbook Pro models get very hot is a well documented issue. I wonder if we can get some data on how much the Mac OS crashes though, relatively?

Apple's extreme efforts to lock you into their hardware and prevent upgrading are also very well known.

That last one is my biggest gripe. They are anti-choice and ultimately, anti- consumer. The Apple hardware lineup is small, sterile and boring to me. There's so much more, better and newer stuff going on outside of Apple's tiny little world.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> It's interesting what a difference a name makes. If they had called it the "MacBook Air Pro", there would be far fewer complaints.

<comment><USER31> Apple MacBook Air Pro with Retina Display. Rolls of the tongue nicely!

<comment><USER32> Rolls of mine more easily than the official name: "MacBook Pro 13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports"

<comment><USER33> I prefer "MBP13-2TB3".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Semantics, duh.

I personally love the latest MacBooks (Pro 2016 and 12"), they are beautiful and the most Apple-like computers they have released in years.

I say that as an owner of a bunch of Thinkpads. It's not that I favor form over function, but I kind of like Apple being Apple.

<comment><USER19> They are pretty, aren't they? What makes you feel they are the most Apple-like in years?

My research into alternatives made me think the Thinkpads are probably the best option. But I just can't buy them because they're so ugly (to me). I feel really silly about that but, dammit, if there's one object where I want it to be pretty as well as functional, it's the laptop I stare at most of my day...

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> They should change its name to MacBook Leisure. It should be very fine piece to watch videos on the go and touch bar could be used to skip boring parts.

<comment><USER36> It does make you wonder if an actual pro book will ever be released.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I think Apple mostly choose excellent components to build their devices, be it the screens, ssds or cameras. For a buyer getting an iPhone or Macbook is usually the best way to get hold of a well put together and high quality device.

Sure you can get the same quality in other devices but it takes research and most devices of equivalent quality are usually as expensive as Apple devices and sometimes even more.

The Dell XPS, Surface book or HP Spectre are not cheap or without issues. Even equivalently configured Asus Zenbooks with i5 and not core-m are not cheap.

For instance the previous generation 13 retinas were the only laptops with 28W i5 SKUs. The rest of the i5 ultrabooks in the Windows ecosystem were the standard 15W SKUs, so with the Macbook 13 Retina you got slightly better performance and Iris graphics.

The current dissappointment is valid as people rightly expect far more from Apple than boring incremental updates. The magsafe ommission is head scratching and 1299 to 1499 is a huge jump.

I think people are getting disenchanted with paying for 'let's make things thin' brand of engineering that adds little to no value to end users.

</comment><comment><USER38> A few days ago there was an article that some Thunderbolt devices don't work with the new machines. A little disconcerting but since I don't have any I don't care.

But I do care about my USB-A devices. I don't mind using an adapter because I only need it at home on my desk. However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices.

Great. Now what?

[I'm also a little ticked off that they don't include an adapter in the box. Most people will have legacy USB-A devices and should need one.]

CORRECTION: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

<comment><USER39> _However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn 't work with some devices._

I'd be genuinely surprised by that though. Isn't it just a passive adapter?

<comment><USER38> Correction: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Are the developers at Cupertino themselves not fed up with this? Working on 2013 Mac Pro's or perhaps, they're all on hackintoshes.

</comment><comment><USER41> I am still surprised that we have people acting surprised by Apple. Weren't people says the same thing:

1\. Three years ago before they had finally released the over due Mac Pro?

2\. Final Cut Pro X?

3\. After iPod and iPhone took over Apple's products?

<comment><USER19> When my ex and I finally broke up I wasn't surprised in the least. I was very sad though.

</comment></comment><comment> mark-r I wonder if Apple has realized that this is their New Coke moment?

[Yes, I realize 3/4 of the audience here is too young to remember: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke) ]

</comment><comment><USER42> I would love for Dell/HP to seize this moment and announce a completely new line/brand of laptops segmented from current brands to just compete head-on with Macbook. Just 3-4 models <Dellbook> 13, 15 and <Dellbook> Pro 13, 15, match Apple build quality 1-1, make them high price/margin. Up the specs kabylake, 32 GB, support both Windows/Linux. Seems we have some pent up demand for this.

<comment><USER19> If they can get the trackpads to work as well as the Mac's, and offer some kind of Apple Care equivalent that isn't shitty (maybe they already do?), I'd be interested.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Lack of ports, or stripping of aforementioned is not the point here. It is Apple's inconsistency, which is the most worrying thing here.

<comment><USER43> Recent iPads and iPhones should have gone the USB-C route.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> As surprised as I am to say this; I think Google could steal a large chunk of the developer market overnight with some slight changes to Chrome OS.

I needed an emergency machine last week (My 2011 Pro finally died), and I opt'd for a £200 Chromebook (EDGAR), thinking all I need is a browser and a terminal right this second and I'd worry about what Apple is doing later.

A solid Linux laptop with working sleep, working wifi, great battery life. Tad underpowered but hey it's £200. I'm _really_ impressed.

If Google relaxed the constraints a little on the OS, or supported a Crouton- like workflow for containers without having to stick it in dev-mode, they could make A LOT of developers very happy.

<comment><USER45> I can't recommend Dell's Developer Edition laptops enough. I switched from a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and haven't run into any of the usual obnoxious Linux-on-a-laptop headaches like sleep or wifi.

[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux- lapt...](http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop)

<comment><USER19> I'm leaning toward the XPS but I keep hearing that the trackpad is pretty shitty. Can you confirm/deny that?

<comment><USER45> It's not as good as the force trackpad on the current MBP, but it's not bad, either. My only real gripe is that the physical click is a little heavy & loud. I'd put it in the same ballpark with prior generations of MBPs that physically clicked. You can always go play with one at a Micro Center or other box store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> More of this? Does he really contribute anything new to this discussion?

My impression is that the MBP 2016 is simply released at an unfortunate timing. If you look at the MacRumors buyers guide, you can see that the release schedule for the MBP has historically been less then a year.

If they can get back to that schedule, they should be able to release a MBP with the specs people are nagging about around the time when a suitable Intel Processor with LPDDR4 is available.

As for other common complaints.

\- Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake \- GPU: Apple has never pushed the boundaries there. If this hasn't been an issue for pro users before, I'm not sure it should be an issue now. \- USB-C only: Typical Apple. Could pay of in a few years though. A world where everything is USB-C is definitely worth pushing for, and it's good that Apple sets an example there. In the meantime I think the 3rd party dongles look quite nice and very convenient. You could potentially have less cable mess by just getting a dongle with just the right ports for you: [http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c- adap...](http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adapters- hubs-2016-mbp/) \- Lack of Magsafe: Sucks, but OK in the context of pushing for a industry-standard charger for everything. Third party cables can pick up this use-case just fine.

So I think the heart of the matter is that Apple has chosen to optimize the power envelope of the Pro line, which has caused them to have to postpone upgrade of processor/RAM. This might seem stupid, but I think it's the right choice in the long term. I think the way things are going, pro users will offload more work to servers/cloud and external GPUs making the niche for a really powerful laptop too small. I also think Apple is making the right reason in focusing more on SSD performance than RAM size. SSD is becoming the new RAM, and RAM is becoming the new cache. RAM is going to be more tightly bonded to the CPU, even in high performance applications. Especially once Intel 3D-Xpoint/Octane hits the market.

So what we're seeing is a generation shift in the tech, and Apple is simply skating to where the puck is going.

<comment><USER47> > \- Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're > working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for > gods sake

The old MacBook Pro keyboards were actually _really good_. Almost as good as the old (~2005) Thinkpad keyboards and definitely good enough for extended typing. While the ergonomics are obviously suboptimal when screen and keyboard are stuck together at least typing on the keys was pleasant and accurate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I'm glad glad glad the magsafe connector is gone. Every single one I've had has gone flaky at the magnetic connector, such that you have to fiddle with it to get just the right alignment for it to charge.

<comment><USER49> Funny how different two people's experiences can be. The magsafe is one of my favorite parts of my macbook (hardware-wise), and I've never had an issue with them connecting correctly.

<comment><USER50> Yeah the magnetic bit is the one part that _does_ survive for me. Don't get me wrong, the cords are shit and constantly frayed, detached, or overheated on me, but I sure miss MagSafe now that I've left Apple products.

<comment><USER27> Well, if you have a USB-C port that charges your device, this does exist, although some reviews say the magnet is currently weaker than the MagSafe's was:

[https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway- Chromeb...](https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromebook- replacement/dp/B01CQTK6GU/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Whoa, what happened to the verge? Just scrolling through that page and my browser has downloaded ~100MB!

<comment><USER52> Damn, you weren't kidding - what the hell?

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I wish these "tech journalists" copying nagging about "some lake" and "16 Gb" from each other again and again to use "comparable Windows alternatives" til the end of their lives. Even if these alternatives are hottest tablets with detachable keyboard and mouse and not Lenovo SuperfishBook Pro.

</comment><comment><USER54> The worst part of the new MacBook Pro is the crappy keyboard. It's not unusable; it's just such a chore to use.

Thank you Apple for making a computer for people who don't need to type very much.

</comment><comment><USER55> IMO, the majority of "pros" that have made the most noise about the latest MacBook Pro aren't pros at all.

</comment><comment><USER56> If Dell releases an XPS 15 in Q1 with Kaby Lake, discrete graphics, and 32GB ram, I'm in.

<comment><USER57> And hopefully trackpad that is just as good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> What is it that makes people thinking whining endlessly about Apple is interesting?

</comment><comment><USER59> Really don't understand this. Why can't those demanding Pro people just get iMacs. It's cheaper and supports 32GB of RAM. Of course, it's stationary, but pretty sure those specific professionals are mostly stationary anyways because they use multiple monitors. This while freak-out about the MBPs ist just silly.

<comment><USER60> > Of course, it's stationary

You answered your own question. I need a machine that is portable that I can hook up to multiple monitors at home and at work, and that I can use on the go for meetings, customer visits, etc.

How the hell will an iMac help me there?

<comment><USER59> But that's a matter of priority then, isn't it? If portability is important then you have to sacrifice some power.

I'm curious, what do you run on your computer to max out a brand-new MBP with 16GB of Ram?

I currently do design and dev work on a 3 year old MBP with 8GB Ram. This includes running VMs for I.E. and back-ends for various projects, using Xcode to build apps, editing Sketch files with 50+ screens, photo editing in Photoshop and motion graphics in AfterEffects. Naturally I don't everything at once, but even with a combo of some of them, everything runs just fine. So this makes me genuinely curious what people do that these brand-new machines can't handle. And are those demands really the majority use case? If not, then there is an argument for having different machines for the demanding work loads and maybe a smaller laptop or even iPad for meetings.

What are your thoughts?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Surface ([https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface- book...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface- book/overview#surfaceconfiguration)):

128GB/Intel® Core™ i5-8GB- $1,499

With tax the price comes to 1650. (I do realize its touch screen) Is M$FT trying the Apple's path?

</comment><comment><USER62> The 16Gb RAM 'let's throw the toys out of the pram' problem has not been handled very well.

The Skylake CPUs I have seen all seem to be limited to 16Gb max RAM. Allegedly there are desktop variants that take more. The Skylake CPUs also have fewer cores in them than one might expect, e.g. two cores (with hyperthreading so '4') in a i7 CPU, for years one has expected four cores (with HT, so '8') in anything branded 'i7'.

There is NVMe for the SSD and I am sure the Apple folks have some nifty driver to swap to disk a lot quicker than in the olden days. So main memory is a bit more like 'cache' in that there is no need to be that hung up on the specifics. If your main program can reside in 16Gb RAM with operating system then all is good. Throwing more memory at the CPU is not how it works on Skylake.

Apple could have avoided the latest CPUs but imagine the outrage of 'old hardware' The new CPUs are low power, you get all day battery. I also wonder whether those people complaining about a lack of RAM are after selling website clicks or doing real work.

<comment><USER63> Really not sure where you're getting your info. The Skylake series is not limited to two cores and can handle more than 16GB. With DDR3 it's 32GB, with DDR4 it's 64GB. This is true of their mobile and desktop parts.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Li...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_\(microarchitecture\)#List_of_Skylake_processors)

Edit:

Maybe you're just confusing Skylake and Kaby Lake?</comment></comment>


Test your color vision - <AUTHOR> http://xritephoto.com/ph_toolframe.aspx?action=coloriq&utm_source=blog.xritephoto.com&utm_medium=textlink&utm_campaign=coloriq <comment><USER2> Scored a 70 with my less-than-great laptop screen.

The problem with any of these online tests is that it is skewed based on your monitor, graphics card, OS, and browser settings.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are right, at least, regarding the monitor. I tried two monitors (other factors being equal), got 28, 4, 68 with Dell IPS LCD, and 31, 11, 78 with Samsung TN LCD (paired t-test p-value=0.08). It might be that amount of light or time of day is another factor introducing variance.</comment></comment>