Cars People Keep for 15 Years or More - <AUTHOR> http://www.thedrive.com/news/25985/here-are-the-top-15-cars-people-keep-for-15-years-or-more-2 <comment><USER2> As a Japanese car owner I'm a fan, but a list of 'cars people keep forever' has a huge amount of selection bias, no?

The sort of person who buys a new Merc probably doesn't _want_ to keep the car for 15 years. The interior is going to be shabby regardless of what you do, and the car will be out of date / an old style.

Japanese cars (at least in standard trim) are the stereotypical low TCO keep it until it stops working car; you've already accepted that you want utilitarian transport by buying one.

<comment><USER3> In Michigan at least a Merc was always short hand for Mercury. Now I realize they no longer make them but this is the first time I've ever heard a Mercedes referred to as a Merc. They will forever be a Mercury to me - and there were some sweet Mercury's as well ;<).

I owned a brown LN7 with a moonroof and got more requests for rides from pretty girls than any car I've ever owned.

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/52345709@N02/10682156066](https://www.flickr.com/photos/52345709@N02/10682156066)

<comment><USER2> Well, from across the pond, this is the first I've ever heard of Mercury at all.

You learn something every day!

(and the link you posted is a beauty.)

<comment><USER4> My friend, you've missed out on a lot of early American rock 'n' roll history.

Mercuries were the hot-rods of the early 50s. There are quite a few early songs that feature Mercurys.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> About Your Privacy on this Site

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<comment><USER6> This is almost comedy:

> To avoid personalized advertising based on your mobile app activity, you can > install the DAA's AppChoices app here.

<comment><USER7> It's for the obvious reason, right? So that they can opt-out your IDFA or AAID.

It's not like most people would be able to get that information.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I had a Honda for 12 years until 2015 then bought another one with the hope of only selling it when it becomes reasonable to acquire an electric car or do away with owning a car at all (I live in South America).

</comment><comment><USER9> Is this commentary on the cars themselves? Or is this more a reflection of the types of people who buy those cars?

Would the type of person who buys a more exciting car keep whatever car they have for a shorter period?

<comment><USER10> A bit of both?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Original study has far more details: [https://www.iseecars.com/cars- kept-15-years-2019-study](https://www.iseecars.com/cars- kept-15-years-2019-study)

For example --

* Some commenters wonder where the German cars are. Well, turns out they dominate the luxury section.

* Some comments suggest people don't really want to keep luxury cars fifteen years. Sort of validated -- that segment is broken out and has a lower average, but just a few percentage points. Sports cars? Almost no one keeps a sports car. Unless you count the Miata.

* 17.2% of people in the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose area keep a car more than 15 years. That's higher than any other studied metro area.

</comment><comment><USER12> This list from the same site, titled "The 10 Longest-Kept Cars When Bought New" has almost no overlap.

[http://www.thedrive.com/news/22665/the-10-longest-kept- cars-...](http://www.thedrive.com/news/22665/the-10-longest-kept-cars-when- bought-new)

<comment><USER13> Yeah, something is wrong with their methodology.

I absolutely do _NOT_ believe that a Prius makes that list.

The first 5-door liftback Prius (what everybody recognizes as a Prius) is _barely_ 15 years old. And, during that time, there were some really amazing incentives from dealers to turn in your old Prius and buy a new one. And big chunks of the early Prii will have batteries that gave out. And a Prius tends to have really expensive repairs after a collision. etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> My daily driver (Ford) is 30 years old, my toy car (Dodge) is 47 years old. I've owned the Ford for 28 years, the Dodge for 30 some.

I like older cars. I suppose I got it from my dad, who'd buy them new and keep them for 30-40 years.

<comment><USER10> Take a look ynder the hood and you start to see the full picture. Older cars were heavy and inefficient. Newer cars have far more complexity and a lot more plastics. On the plus side they have some great traction features and are far safer to get in an accident with (in general).

<comment><USER14> My Ford has 4WD, and is satisfactory in the snow. The safety in a collision is an issue, likely the only one for me.

The Ford is cheap to operate, and very cheap to repair compared with newer models.

<comment><USER15> ESC > 4WD

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Toyota's obsession with quality is paying off.

I love cars, current ride is an 11 year old Toyota product. (Lexus IS F. Heart of a muscle car!)

I kept my last ride almost 15 years, I hope to keep this one a good long time, too.

<comment><USER16> I love my '05 Toyota 4Runner, bought new. No serious issues and gets pretty heavy daily use. My mechanic says it should be good for another 8 years at least. Basically I hope to drive it until self-driving tech is widely available.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I am surprised there are no lexus cars. Those things last forever.

<comment><USER18> Lexus is pretty much Toyota.

<comment><USER17> The lexus brand has a higher quality standard. Toyota is already good, but they do additional checks for lexus. For example they CAT scan the motor for any imperfections.

[https://blog.lexus.co.uk/7-engineering-and-production- techni...](https://blog.lexus.co.uk/7-engineering-and-production-techniques- that-make-a-lexus-a-lexus/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Perhaps this data does not indicate the obvious for some stuff. We have two 2001 Tacoma trucks, one is 4WD, and one is 2WD. My truck is ugly as sin, but is reliable and easy to repair. The new Tacoma is essentially a full-size truck, too much plastic, much more complex, too much is not accessible for maintenance, and per my three neighbors, much less reliable. This is why we have not bought new machines.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have an '01 Tundra that just keeps going. No kind words for the appearance and people use me as a moving service, but I love the damn thing.

<comment><USER20> Current Tundras, though being very different than your gen, are still seen as maybe the best forever truck. Those engines are pretty much bug free but also they get terrible gas mileage.

I'm hoping my V8 F150 goes for 20 years, though I doubt I'll keep it that long. I like the safety bells and whistles in modern cars and my 2016 is just old enough not to include adaptive cruise or a 360 camera or a blind spot camera.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> My UK-model Toyota Celica Supra was owned by its original owner for 20 years. During that time, the car was pampered and treasured - I have a large folder of extensive service records dating to the late-80s. My father bought it in 2006 and gave it to me in 2013. I've sworn never to get rid of it, no matter what. Not only is it an incredible car to drive, and visually striking (classic 80s wedge shape), but no current car has my attention. Plus, even if current cars are more efficient, more powerful, etc, the amount of resources and energy used in the manufacture of a newer car quickly offsets those benefits when I could simply keep a well-engineered vehicle running for longer. Finding parts is understandably difficult, but I see no reason to chop and change cars every few years. If I could, I would have owned the car from new, but it's 4 years older than me!

</comment><comment><USER22> Interesting, but not sure how useful. Inevitable that this kind of information becomes out of date as far as what car is worth keeping that you now own.

<comment><USER23> Implicit in this is company culture, how their engineering teams work. Toyota and Honda have been well known to make reliable cars for years. I think part of the reason for their reliability is their relatively under powered engines. Although, I'm surprised there isn't a GM vehicle on there. GM tends to make pretty reliable engines and trannys, although everything else on them tends to fall apart all at the same time.

<comment><USER24> We have a 15 year old Honda Odyssey, and if required periodic repairs for anything, not just powertrain, we'd probably replace it -- it just won't be worth the time and bother, even for relatively minor repairs. But it just soldiers on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> BMW should certainly be on that list considering European owners. Countless numbers of E46 and E39 models remain on the road here.

<comment><USER26> It says percentage of original owners. Luxury owners tend to lease more and upgrade more. I don't know anyone that isn't at least the 2nd owner of an E46 or E39.

<comment><USER25> Ah, ok. My mistake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I would like to see the same statistics for Europe. It would be very different.

I am afraid the result is biased. Most of the people in US keep Japanese cars because most people actually buy Japanese cars at the first place and some of them keep them.

I guess in Europe we could see very different brands.

<comment><USER28> Here in Norway, and even more in Sweden, I think Volvo would feature pretty heavily in the list.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I have a 14 year old Volvo wagon and a 13 year old Camry. I regularly drive both. Love not having car payments. Live in the snow/salt belt. In my youth it just wouldn't have been possible. The cars would have rusted to pieces by now. Paint sure has improved.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm surprised the Acura Integra/RSX/ILX isn't on the list. I certainly see a lot of older Acuras driving around in the northeast.

Maybe a badging issue due to all the name changes?

Or maybe the kind of person that will drive a 15 year old car doesn't like compact cars?

<comment><USER31> The ILX hasn't been on the market for 15+ years.

Integra (2001 was last US production year) and RSX are both inline-4 with relatively agressive compression ratios. Anecdotally, an owner who purchased new as a daily driver with no intent on abusing the vehicle is liable to start encountering appreciable maintenance costs at 120,000+ miles. More often than not, these vehicles find a 2nd (or 3rd+) life on the used market. 10% ethanol gas didn't make reliability any better either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> My Toyota is only 20 years old. Still goes great so will keep for another five.

</comment><comment><USER33> A related read:

[https://www.barrons.com/articles/luxury-cars- used-5154751920...](https://www.barrons.com/articles/luxury-cars- used-51547519209)

</comment><comment><USER34> Of course such a list will be near-exclusively Japanese, but I'm a bit surprised that it's near-exclusively Toyota and Honda. Nissan and Mazda vehicles/customers aren't comparable?

<comment><USER26> Nissan vehicles have never been known for their reliability in comparison with Honda/Toyota and Mazda had a long partnership with Ford that included using their powertrains among other things that certainly didn't help with reliability. The Mazda B series and Navajo were basically indistinguishable from the Ford Ranger and Explorer of the period.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I wonder how things might be in Europe. We've owned BMW's in the US for years. However, we get rid of them just before the warranty runs out. Cost of parts and maintenance is just too high.

<comment><USER36> There are some old bmw on the road, but there are more old mercedes. Mercedes is way more reliable than BMW.

Then it depends on where you live. In my region east of France, you can see a lot of Peugeot 205 which last forever. If you live on other parts of France, you will see more old Renault. If you are in Italy you have old Fiat :)

The japanese cars were never a thing in Europe, I don't know the reason. Maybe due high price, cheap interiors and bad diesel engines? What is sure is that they are damn expensive on the used market.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I've got a 2012 Kia Soul that I'm going to keep until I can't get it to the dealership anymore because they're paying me for each mile I drive it. (MPG rebate)

</comment><comment><USER38> I've got an 09 Honda Fit that I bought new and I have no intention on selling within the next 5 years. But I'm probably an outlier since it only has 55000 miles on it.

<comment><USER39> 2010 fit sport here, seems totally fine at eight years old. we have zero intention to replace it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I knew the Tacoma would be on that list.. VERY reliable and rugged car. Toyota should be proud!

</comment><comment><USER41> Still driving my 1993 Toyota pickup as a second vehicle.

CA still makes me smog-test it every other year.

</comment><comment><USER42> "... in the US"</comment>


How Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/business/sovereign-citizens-financial-crime.html <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19536464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19536464)</comment>


Ask HN: How does FaceTime do NAT Traversal? - <AUTHOR>

I've been researching on several NAT Traversal algorithms for project I'm working on. I tried FaceTime on several routers with different NAT configurations and it seemed to work great but couldn't figure out the algorithm. Any help will be much appreciated. <comment><USER2> STUN and TURN are listed in the open source protocols used by FaceTime [1], so it is probably one or both of those. There are probably a few more methods too, and it will just keep trying until it finds one that works on the current network.

[1] [http://blog.imtc.org/index.php/2010/06/09/the-technology- beh...](http://blog.imtc.org/index.php/2010/06/09/the-technology-behind- apples-facetime-standards/)

</comment><comment><USER3> STUN and TURN were already mentioned.

There is also Apple's own NAT-PMP which is more like UPnP but simpler. It can directly ask your (Apple) router to open a port and redirect it incoming traffic to a specific IP address on your local network.

[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/NAT_Port_Mapp...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/NAT_Port_Mapping_Protocol)

I bet Apple also supports UPnP these days.

</comment><comment><USER4> The usual technique is 'UDP hole punching'.

<comment><USER5> yeah, same thing Skype does, I would not be surprised if FaceTime does exactly that.</comment></comment>


Would you be interested in a notification system/feeds for HN? - <AUTHOR>

Here are a few things I think HN currently lacks:
* Sometimes I want to keep up with new comments on a specific thread I'm interested in. There is no easy way to do it, I have to manually "poll" the item page, and it's far from optimal. The biggest problem being, I can't easily see new comments.
* Similarly, I'd like to be able to quickly see new submissions/comments from some users.
I'm planning on building a small app to remediate to this problem. Basically the plan is to provide RSS feeds for top-level items and users, so that I can quickly see new content on a RSS reader. Maybe I would extend this with a website that would allow you to sort comments by novelty and other things like that (+/- a HN-specific RSS reader).
I would like to know if someone else is interested by this idea, or if someone can point me to an already-existing solution. If there are several people interested, I would put much effort into this project, and don't make it usable only for me :-)
P.S: I know HN has some limitations about crawling, but I think if one almost only polls ~ once/minute the /newcomments, /news and /newest page, the amount of data could be sufficient. <comment><USER2> This appears to be the third time you've posted this. However, repeating what I said earlier ...

I would definitely be interested, but I'm not sure what I want. I also suspect that what I want wouldn't be what other people would want, and I suspect that most people would want it very, very personalised.

I'll be interested to see what others think, and if there's some demand then I'll write up my thoughts for you.</comment>


Poland Is Developing National Cryptocurrency - <AUTHOR> https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/poland-developing-national-cryptocurrency/ <comment><USER2> So, basically, take a document timestamping service that is decentralized, and throw away this one and only progressive feature of blockchain by making it have something that resembles central authority.

It doesn't sound like the team of economists was assisted by any cryptographers (the "Polish Technology Accelerator Blockchain" has none in their team, so it's not surprising). They may have the competence to design a financial system, but technology-wise it's headed towards failure.</comment>


How to Get a Strong, Unique, and Memorable Password for Each Website - <AUTHOR> https://dave-santos.github.io/posts/secure-unique-password/ <comment><USER2> This is not at all a secure scheme. I would not be surprised to find a set of JohnTheRipper patterns already available to test these possibilities against a password hash leak.

Just use a password manager, let it generate a random password for each website, and let it do the 'remembering' and the submitting of the password to the website.

<comment><AUTHOR> Some of us don't want to install things. Installing things like that is another layer of surface attack: you should trust the developers, code has no bugs/weakness, etc. Plus it's a single point of failure, once your manager is compromised, all services is compromised also!

It's adding few bits of strength to the current password that you already have. It's not making it weaker to some patterns guesser.

<comment><USER2> > once your manager is compromised, all services is compromised also

Which is much less likely than a weak password being reused and subsequently getting JackTheRipper revealed.

> It's not making it weaker to some patterns guesser.

Any password based upon any dictionary word, even with a few extra bits tacked on like this approach suggests, is incredibly weak in the face of a JackTheRipper or HashCat attack. The scheme proposed here would fall quickly from a leak of the password hashes to a HashCat GPU dictionary attack.

The only secure password in today's world of GPU password attacks is the truly random jumble of characters that few humans have the ability to memorize. And even the few who could memorize a few random jumbles likely could not remember 40 or 50 separate random jumbles. And 40 or 50 separate passwords for 40 or 50 separate online systems is not an unreasonable number. Therefore the need for using a password manager.

<comment><AUTHOR> > Any password based upon any dictionary word, even with a few extra bits > tacked on like this approach suggests, is incredibly weak in the face of a > JackTheRipper or HashCat attack. The scheme proposed here would fall quickly > from a leak of the password hashes to a HashCat GPU dictionary attack.

You don't get the point of making it's unique. Even if the password is shown because of the advanced bruteforcing, the password can't be used to other services. Hackers will try the password to other services and when it's not working, it's going to ignore it and just try another password.

It's very unlikely that the hackers will try to guess how to reconstruct your original password from the one that he already has.

> .. a weak password being reused ..

The password is not re-used, it's unique for each website.

> Which is much less likely...

Again, you should trust the manager. You should trust the software where you install the manager. and on and on..

What worst is that probably people will use again a weak password for the manager thinking that it's safe.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Bringing Silicon Valley to the Midwest - <AUTHOR> http://blog.expensify.com/2014/04/09/bringing-silicon-valley-to-the-midwest/ <comment><USER3> This is potentially a great way to go and solve the "engineering shortage" in the U.S. There are tons of qualified engineers in places all over the U.S., but S.V. never bothers to look for them. The great side benefit is that the cost of living in most of the U.S. is much lower than on the coasts meaning you can almost get 2 people in nowhere Alabama or Nashville, Someplace for the price of 1 San Franciscan or 1 New Yorker.

They'll speak English, share a common-ish culture, and have gone through the American educational system so interfacing with them isn't nearly as hard as real offshored employees or contracted firms. They'll also be within continental U.S. time-zones. You want to solve work visa problems? This is how you do it.

I've met a few entrepreneurs who were self-funding and thus really cared about their burn rate while building their product who opted for teams of devs in overlooked places in the U.S.

If you want a starting point, checkout towns near DOE National Labs. They're usually out in the middle of nowheresville (because of nukes) and are full of incredibly educated, qualified people, who may have moved there for lab work and ended up not like the stifling academic environment of National Labs. There resumes may not be a string of startups, but they're used to working on bleeding edge stuff and the cost of living in these areas is generally pretty low.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_laboratory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_laboratory)

<comment><USER4> I don't see how two people producing the same output deserve different salaries based on where they live - why should geographic location dictate my salary relative to my peers?

<comment><USER5> Because demand is less. The wage is still dictated by supply and demand. The supply is probably less, but the demand for that labor is far less. The demand for an engineer in the midwest is higher than the demand for an engineer in Thailand because there are less time barriers, language barriers, etc.

A house in Palo Alto, CA costs more than the exact same house in Dexter, Michigan. If they were made of the exact same materials on the exact same size of land, you wouldn't expect them to cost the same either.

<comment><USER4> I don't think the house comparison is a good example - a house in Palo Alto can only be utilised in Palo Alto. A remote worker could work from anywhere and produce the same output, regardless of location.

Pay levels based on location seem like a good way for companies to "save" money by providing a convenient excuse to pay someone less for the same work.

<comment><USER6> That is correct. I, living in Dallas, am willing to sell my labor in Dallas for a lower price than I am willing to sell my labor in Palo Alto. Thus, a company in Palo Alto can save money by hiring me in Dallas to do the job. There is nothing inconsistent about this.

<comment><USER7> Price should be based on the value you are providing to your clients/employer. Not your expenses.

<comment><USER3> If only the price of my house was based on the value I provide my employer.

<comment><USER7> What does this have to do with anything? The amount you paid for a house is based on it's value to you. Same as your employer and it's employees. I live in the midwest - a cheap place to live. But I charge SV rates because of the value I provide my clients. I don't have to charge "less" because I live in a cheap area. It is irrelevant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Although I won't be moving to the midwest, I am rooting for this. I'm in SF because I grew up here and have a lot of family in the area. I don't live here because of the excellent salaries, because while the average software developer here earns (according to sfgate and us news best jobs) between $110,000 and $120,000 a year, the median 3br house costs 1.1 million.

It would be a great triumph if the tech industry found a way to function without needing to move every software developer internationally into a the 48 square miles of SF plus a small corridor down the peninsula.

I've read about startups in Baltimore, St. Louis. These are bustling, interesting old cities with cool architecture, walkable downtowns, great old gardens and museums, and _vastly_ lower rents. If the tech industry could find a way to convert some of those 110K a year jobs in SF into a large number of $95k a year jobs in cincinatti or st. louis, it would have an exceptional effect on the world.

And you know, if you are paying $110k in a place where a reasonably nice 3br house can be had for $300k, I'd be a lot more receptive to worries of a worker "shortage" than if you're offering that salary in a place where a 3br house is $1.1.

So all I'm really saying here is good luck, I hope this works for everyone involved.

</comment><comment><USER9> The Valley != Access to Tech Jobs

Most of the Midwest doesn't have a dying need for "The Valley". This article reads a bit like SV is the saving grace of the Midwest, If only those people had access to tech.

I think there's a very healthy tech scene in many areas of the Midwest. I live in Minneapolis and there are plenty of local companies doing well with local people. There are also quite a few local resources for entrepreneurs without the need to be involved in SV.

For starters: [http://tech.mn/](http://tech.mn/)

<comment><USER10> When I graduated Purdue, 9 years ago, there was very little in the way of software jobs at least (And I got the impression that the top companeis hiring Mech E and EE students could be as selective as they wanted). I had to go to one of the coasts to get a sane offer.

The only real job offer I got in Indiana was a one year contract for $30k/year in Fort Wayne, which was less than half the salary for the non-contract position I took in California. There is no sane cost of living adjustment that will cause those to be comparable.

<comment><USER11> Twin Cities and Chicago areas are exceptions to the rule, when it comes to Midwest. Both have a healthy mix of old-school industrial giants, financial, retail, and new tech and bio companies. This is different from other big metros in the region like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, St. Louis, and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is another (arguably) Midwestern city that has a growing new-tech/bio industry (Google and Intel + recently, old-school Bosch Research Center + several medical-sector startups).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Folks love to talk about the Midwest as fly-over nation, but the Midwest is a great place to hire. Of Zapier's 9 person team we have 4 people in the Midwest: 2 engineers, 1 marketing, 1 support. And we have no intention of stopping hiring in the Midwest.

<comment><USER13> Does it have to be the Midwest though? I'm in Chicago, and moving to Florida due to the weather and less-brutal state income/property tax (and I can own a sailboat).

TL;DR Don't overlook low-cost locales for talent.

<comment><USER12> Correct. We work with folks anywhere. :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> There is absolutely an opportunity to hire talented people at affordable rates outside major urban areas. I just finished an eight year adventure growing a startup from nothing, and I did it remotely from South Dakota. In a few months I'll be looking for another remote opportunity with a company like Expensify that "gets it"; I'll get to work from my beautiful hometown and they'll likely get talent cheaper than they could in an expensive major metro area.

</comment><comment><USER15> I wish more companies had this mentality, it's amazing how much talent pool they are leaving out there by not allowing remote work for some positions. Especially for those of us that live in the Midwest but cannot leave for any number of reasons.

<comment><USER3> Honestly, the "right" way for companies to do it is to simple lease an office near a concentration of a few workers. Even if it's just 4 or 5 employees, a nice office with internet and a kitchen isn't very expensive. That way it's not "remote" work, it's just another corporate office location.

Checking online in Kansas City, MO. 13,000 SF of office space runs < $10k/mo. That's a bargain. Spot checking other places (Colorado Springs, Nashville) doesn't run too much different.

<comment><USER16> That's exactly right. A friend of mine in St. Louis is currently negotiating $14/sq.ft. down to, ideally, $12. Last I heard from my CxO friend in California, he was excited to find $30.

To me, it's shocking that anyone would start a business out there. (Okay, not really... there is a lot of money out there and it flows much more freely. But I couldn't personally justify spending my cash on 2.5x more expensive real estate!)

<comment><USER17> Quality of life is becoming much higher in both KC and STL over the last few years. Residential rents and house prices are cheap. Offices are practically free. The restaurants are becoming better and attuned to coastal sensibilities.

One point that should be mentioned it that both STL and KCMO have significant violent crime problems. The STL crime rate has been improving impressively. When I went there recently, I was shocked by relative improvement. Neighborhoods that were dilapidated in the mid-00s are now happening spots.

Flee the coasts! Opportunities await in the country!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm jealous -- I would love to telecommute from my home town in the Upper Peninsula, but it just wasn't happening when I was looking for jobs after college. I ended up moving to a bigger city just to get a job as a software engineer.

Still looking for a way to get back home, though. There have been so few options, and none where I felt I'd be able to advance my career. Self employment has always been the most attractive option.

<comment><USER19> You could always start your own company.

I loved the upper peninsula when I visited years ago. and it seemed /dirt/ cheap, I paid $20/night for a motel. Plus any place with Cornish pasties at every stop steals my heart.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> As a Midwesterner, I am slightly put off by the use of the term "outsourcing" in the title. Considering the term wasn't used in the article I feel it carries negative connotation. Maybe I am reading too deeply into this...

<comment><USER21> I have to admit, as a fly-over stater (Colorado) I found the tone be pretty condescending. There's an air of "we're moving the stuff people in the valley are to smart to do" to it. I'm not sure if it's intended, but it seems like they think the midwest is only good for the entry level. That really amazing developers don't exist outside of the valley.

If that's true, I for one hope they don't change their position. We're building one hell of an engineering team and much of it is from the midwest. If other folks figure this out, I'd have to actually compete for the best developers!

<comment><USER22> Is it possible to get an entry-level engineering job in the Valley today? It doesn't seem like that's common at all. So if you're just starting out and particularly if you don't happen to have a boutique degree, where are you going to start at entry level as a developer? To me, it sounds like a great way to hire.

<comment><USER23> Yes, their are plenty of startups with less brand name recognition hiring. A friend of mine from a non technical background managed to get a decent PM job after finishing hackbrite.

Alternatively you can get in the door of a brand name company by doing QA for a year or so.I have multiple friends that transitioned from a liberals arts degree to being developers by first starting in QA. It's totally possible.

Internships are also a good way to get your foot in the door.

<comment><USER22> That's interesting; I never thought about the QA angle. Maybe you can say a little more about how that works and what companies?

<comment><USER23> Good QA people are incredibly hard to find, especially ones that can do automated testing. One of my old managers started at Apple in QA and then transitioned over to being a developer after a year or two. I've seen this pattern a number of times. The potential risk is that many organizations won't allow you to leave QA. That may not be a problem if thats what you want to do. QA can pay quite well if you are doing the right thing.

The way to play this is to go into an organization with a good brand name, work hard, focus on automation as much as possible and if they won't help you transition over to being a developer leave after two years for a place that will. Having a good brand on your resume will open a lot of doors. Also, if you are going down this road its a good idea to build a portfolio of software on github.

Devops is also a good option to consider. It really depends on what your background is and what skills you bring to the table.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I don't really call this "Outsourcing." I call it smart hiring.

I have two teams -- one in Cincinnati, and one in Walnut Hills, CA. On my teams, I have a blend of about 60% onsite and 40% remote workers. I pay equally across the board, with the guys in CA getting an extra $1K/month due to the insane cost of living. I hire wherever I can find talent, and I find technology that works to bring us together as a team regardless of our location.

</comment><comment><USER22> I'm really impressed by Expensify's approach to solving problems and working with people.

</comment><comment><USER25> This is sort of my dream. When, while on vacation, I saw that the state had run fiber up to the local state park (a gorgeous, national park sized state park), I asked whether private interests were also attached.

I have since heard that there were plans to upgrade backbone service to the local town 13 miles away. Supposedly, an insurance company was going to host a call center there -- although that part of the story and the party involved sounded suspicious.

If you all want to explore whether this location might be one you want to add to your list, shoot me an email. (Regardless of whether it does anything for me, personally. I'd like to see the town do well.)

<comment><USER13> Which state park? I'm guessing Utah?

<comment><USER25> It's in the same general area as the OP: Porcupine Mountains Wilderness State Park, in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Approximately 15 miles of Lake Superior shoreline, extending inward 3 - <USER2> miles, in the eastern part of the park over a series of parallel ridges that are remant uplift of the old Lake Superior syncline.

One road around the boundary, and another up to a scenic overlook. The rest of the park is accessed by trails.

If you like hiking and camping, or want to spring for one of the better cabin rentals, it's a gorgeous, peaceful place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I currently live in Michigan and telecommute fulltime for a company on the East Coast. I highly recommend it! It works well as our entire team is distributed.

</comment><comment><USER27> I approve this message, as I am a web software developer in the midwest. I'm also involved in a great startup focused community here, [http://digitalfertilizer.org/](http://digitalfertilizer.org/) with a network of high quality developers and designers, many of whom are full-time employed by startups all across the country.

I'm also on the market for remote work. Same username on Twitter.

</comment><comment><USER28> Good for them. It really helps when the entire company embraces a distributed workforce and not just having that "one guy".

I live in California, two hours away from the Bay Area, and I still cannot convince employers to hire remote. Yet they still send me recruiting emails.

</comment><comment><USER29> why pick a geographic region at all ? Why not just hire the best people no matter where they are ?

37signals.com/remote/

</comment><comment><USER30> [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Rapids,_Iowa](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Rapids,_Iowa)</comment>


Ask HN: Gaining real world experience while being the only developer in a team? - <AUTHOR> A question that strikes my mind often, what do you think would be a good idea to assist the one and only developer in a team to gain real world software development experience? Contribute to open source projects can be one option, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. <comment><USER2> I'd also love to hear thoughts on this. In a similar position.</comment>


Ask HN: How to learn Javascript and HTML for devs coming from C++/Java/Python? - <AUTHOR> I am a programmer who has good knowledge of C++, Java, Python and even some Common Lisp and looking to learning a bit of HTML, CSS and Javascript. What resources will you recommend for learning these to a developer who is experienced in other languages? <comment><USER2> I'm shocked nobody's recommended Douglas Crockford's ... well ... everything:

<http://javascript.crockford.com/>

Watch the "Javascript: The Good Parts" presentation:

[http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/06/08/video-crockford- goodstuff...](http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/06/08/video-crockford-goodstuff/)

Also check out Dustin Diaz's stuff:

<http://www.dustindiaz.com/>

I found his screencasts where you watch him program to be incredibly helpful:

<http://www.dustindiaz.com/screencast-episode-01/>

Start your javascript programming with jQuery. Good javascript style is not at all like Java, so forget everything you know about Java and see how jQuery does it.

<comment><USER3> Absolutely Douglas Crockford. His live presentations are the single most helpful and, more importantly, realistic/down-to-earth description of Javascript out there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I found the book "JavaScript: The Good Parts" by Douglas Crockford to be very helpful in understanding the language. It's short and covers the main things you'll need to know. It's a good starting place. In fact, he gave a tech talk on the main topics of his book which you can find here: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVTIJBZook>

<comment><USER5> This book can not be recommended strongly enough. It was my "a-ha!" moment with JavaScript. Especially for people with programming experience in other languages, it's a gem. It's thin and easy to overlook, but every page is a, "so _that's_ why JS behaves like that!" revelation.

<comment><USER6> I have a friend who describes it exactly the same way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For Javascript, I totally recommend the Mozilla's guides <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Guide>. Just a warning some of this code doesn't fully work on all browsers but AFAIK they point it in the guides.

For HTML the w3schools guides are good <http://www.w3schools.com/html/default.asp> (the javascript one are also ok).

Once you get the basics of Javascript I'll recommend to go with one of this frameworks : JQuery, Prototype/scriptaculous, Mootools, Dojo, Google closure or Yahoo YUI.

There's no better ones, it's a matter of preference, I personally currently use JQuery but for some projects I used Mootools (great piece of code) and Prototype/scriptaculous. I heard a lot of goods for YUI also.

<comment><USER8> I'd add ExtJS (<http://www.sencha.com/products/js/>) to that list. It's a got a very larget widget library, an active community and provides adapters to make it easy to work at the same time with other libraries. Plus, some of the new libraries Sencha (the company behind ExtJS) is coming up with to develop JavaScript apps on Touch devices look very promising.

<comment><USER7> Thanks for adding it to the list, I've always been stopped by the Windows-ish UI (as Google closure) but I read good feedbacks coming from it.

I also forgot GWT if you're coming from Java it could be a simple way to do some web development. I used it a bit at Seesmic and keep a good overall experience.

Of course GWT abstracts lot of things so you'll ended up by having a nice final product but not really understand the roots of html and javascript.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Read Zeldman's "Designing w/ Web Standards, 3rd Edition". That book will give you direction and save you a lot of time.

The problem with HTML is that it is a pretty loose language and you can do a lot with it without getting your syntax right. On top of that you have a lot of confusion because of HTML 4.01, HTML5 and XHTML 1.0.

Because of all that you will find tons of HTML resources all over the web that may appear decent, but actually teach you bad habits and old hacks that are no longer best practice. Zeldman's book will give you some direction so you don't waste too much time and develop good habits from the beginning. If it's not the first book you read, it should at least be the second book you read.

I haven't read them yet, but Zeldman recommends the following JS books:

DOM Scripting: Web Design with Javascript and the Document Object Model

The Javascript Anthology: 101 Essential Tips, Tricks, and Hacks

For CSS, the best resources are Eric Meyer's "CSS: The Definitive Guide" and "CSS: Pocket Reference"

The current edition of The Definitive Guide is a 2006 edition. I asked Eric about a new edition and although there isn't a date set, he expects a new edition covering CSS3 sometime in 2011.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! Ordered the "Designing w/Web Standards" book first.

<comment><USER9> You'll enjoy it. It may be over 400 pages long but it's a really quick read. You should be able to read it all in 1-3 days.

Zeldman makes tons of link references throughout to a bunch of excellent resources, oftentimes the original sources explaining a new idea in web design. Make sure to check those links out, they add a lot of value and context, especially the A List Apart references.

The last chapter in the book ties everything together and walks you through building the Agenda from NY Mag in HTML and CSS first and then using JQuery to add behavior:

<http://nymag.com/agenda/?f=agenda>

<comment><USER10> Wonderful book recommendation, I am half way through, knowing nothing about web-design. Reading this book puts a huge smile on my face, it is funny and an easy read!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> One of the first things you have to do is installing the firebug extension for Firefox.

</comment><comment><USER12> Not a resource, but speaking as someone who is not a Javascript or Python expert, but used to know his way around C++ and java, my suggestion is to ignore everything you think you know about C++ and Java when learning Javascript. Do _not_ be seduced by the ALGOL syntax.

When learning a new language we often think in an existing language and then "translate." Until you start "Thinking in Javascript,' I beg you to "Think in Python," not C++ or Java.

JM2C.

</comment><comment><USER13> If you're going into some frontend development with javascript make sure you also get familiar with at least one of the common javascript libraries like jquery. they're very powerful.

</comment><comment><USER14> If you know Python, learn CoffeeScript - that's how I learned JS. <http://coffeescript.org>

</comment><comment><USER15> I'd actual advise you to "Think in Lisp" while learning Javascript - I'd just read "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" when I started getting deeper in the JS, and it made a world of difference. The Javascript type system is a little like Python and a little insane - check out "[http://www.slideshare.net/SlexAxton/superclassy- inheritance-...](http://www.slideshare.net/SlexAxton/superclassy-inheritance- in-javascript)

The Mozilla HTML reference is very good: <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/HTML/Element> and between it and just viewing the source on decent websites you can learn a lot - coming from Java, you must know XML pretty well already :)

As for CSS, I've always just used the W3's reference: <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/> which is a little dense but followable. (The W3 for HTML isn't bad either, but they will use the schema definitions for everything, which are slightly opaque.)

Finally, <http://www.alistapart.com/> is a great reference for the pragmatic state of web design. Lots of great articles, especially going back a bit.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'd suggest approaching this from a slightly different perspective.

Find a simple problem - say and ajax driven to do list for instance - and mock up a simple HTML front end preferably from scratch, hand-coding the HTML. Reference sites abound but I keep finding myself at w3schools.com which was previously mentioned. As you solve individual UX problems you'll quickly get the hang of how HTML does its thing. Pay attention to standards and validate you code using the W3 validator. A good HTML editor like Dreamweaver (free trial available from Adobe) will do you wonders.

For user interactivity (alerts, browser validation, submitting data asynchronously etc) you roll out some Javascript and try solving the problem with plain vanilla javascript and then with a library like jQuery or ExtJS. I think this is the only way to grasp the utility of these libraries.

Then on the server end a web dev framework (Django if you love Python...) will get you done. Again, try solving the problem without the framework and then phase it in.

A couple of weekends later you can add "Web Developer" to you resume : )

</comment><comment><USER17> I started javascript programming just a few months back, and I think a really quickly picked it up due to my relatively good programming background as yourself. I've primarily written in Java and Perl before.

Javascript is dynamic language, and I think a lot of it will have some familiarity of python (...well, I think so - I do not know python...). I would recommend to start with "Object Oriented Javascript" (Stefanov) from Packt Publishing, rather than the Javascript brick from Oreilly. You get through this book relatively quickly. One quirk of JS is the use of the "this" keyword, which you might find being used in a bit oddly ways.

HTML will you understand relatively easily as well. You might need to pick up some CSS layout techniques which I sometimes finds a bit baffling from time to time.

</comment><comment><USER18> I have a similar background, and I found these two excellent reads removed a lot of the ambiguity that I think comes with JavaScript. For me, I was constantly having an internal argument around designing functionally-- encapsulation and messaging via closures--vs designing in an object-oriented paradigm.

<http://eloquentjavascript.net/>

<http://javascript.crockford.com/private.html>

Also, I'd recommend making this _the_ way you start writing software with JavaScript.

[http://www.adequatelygood.com/2010/3/JavaScript-Module- Patte...](http://www.adequatelygood.com/2010/3/JavaScript-Module-Pattern-In- Depth)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for all the responses so far! Any recommendations about CSS? And recommendations for good books apart from "Javascript the good parts" mentioned so far?

<comment><USER19> CSS is actually the tweakiest part of the frontend triumvirate. The syntax isn't hard (selector + bag of key/value pairs) but putting it together so it reliably renders on all browsers takes weeks/months.

I'd recommend doing sass/compass instead which both provides an abstraction layer and a library of working code. If you're starting from nothing, the SASS syntax will probably be easier to work with than the default SCSS syntax. You can dig into the libraries if you really care about how things work, but it's always easier to start from something that works than to try to figure out stuff from scratch.

<comment><USER9> I second this suggestion to work with Compass/SASS. I use SASS and HAML together.

Avoid the desire to work with one of popular grid frameworks like Blueprint or 960.gs unless you are sure that your project really needs something like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Somewhat unrelated: I heard that learning NodeJS(right name?) for the server side is useful because then you can program in JS on both the server and client side.

But I can't imagine any cases where this is useful? Is it just the benefit that you don't have to think in two different languages or is there something more to it?

<comment><USER9> Given that the author is interested in HTML as well, I imagine that he probably is more interested in JS resources that focus on the DOM and not on using JS as a general purpose programming language. However, I may be wrong about this.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are correct. More interested in front-end stuff for now.

<comment><USER9> Given the state of things today, I would definite focus on web standards and semantic HTML. The reason being that any front end HTML you write today is likely to be used both on the desktop and via mobile devices.

Writing good clean semantic HTML will help ensure that you need only write one HTML document that is then styled by one CSS document for the desktop and one for mobile devices. Plus writing semantic HTML will give you basic SEO for free.

I honestly wouldn't worry about the JS frameworks just yet unless you have something specific in mind that you want to build. There's so much other basic stuff to learn. I would tackle javascript after you have a good grasp of HTML and CSS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This class at UW, teaches all that. Here is the website: <http://www.cs.washington.edu/education/courses/cse190m/10su/>

They have some great resources there.

</comment><comment><USER22> Been there, done that. The most useful tip I could give you is to have trust in your guts that you can do it and just start.

Don't get me wrong, the world wide web is a totally different beast.. however, the basic stuff still stay the same :)

</comment><comment><USER23> besides by "doing it" I say bulletproof web design is a good book to start with. [http://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexibility- pro...](http://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexibility- protecting/dp/0321509021/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287681593&sr=1-1)

javascript- the good parts could also be helpful [http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas- Crockfor...](http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas- Crockford/dp/0596517742/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287681662&sr=1-1)

www.jquery.com smashingmagazine.com ajaxian.com

all helpful

</comment><comment><USER24> Man, I'm the complete opposite way. How would you recommend learning Python?

<comment><USER25> The official python tutorials are pretty good actually:

<http://docs.python.org/tutorial/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This Javascript tutorial is aimed at Python programmers:

[http://bitbucket.org/jfine/javascript-for-python- programmers...](http://bitbucket.org/jfine/javascript-for-python- programmers/downloads)

</comment><comment><USER27> <http://www.w3schools.com/>

Seriously.

<comment><USER28> Coming from a similar background, I second a lot of the links pointed out so far (w3schools and JQuery have been a huge help in particular). It's a great start. After that, just dive in. I started writing a chess game using canvas (part of HTML5) and javascript. It's just been a matter of figuring it out piece by piece from there. Writing lots of awful code, figuring out why it's awful, tearing it up and doing it again (Javascript: The Good Parts has been a great help).

I've managed to learn just enough html/css/javascript to be dangerous, now I'm moving on to server-side programming. What I like to do is this: Take an 11"x17" piece of paper, and write whatever it is I'm trying to learn in the centre and circle it. As I figure out what I don't know know about this technology, but need to, I draw a branch off the centre circle, for that piece of knowledge. And I continue to break it down as I go. This gives me a good visual of things I should start focussing on.

As a more concrete example, I'm using python as the backe end to my current side project. So in the centre of the page is a bubble for python. Off that I have different things I want to explore, so there is a bubble for Security, WSGI, templating engines, and SQLAlchemy. Off of security, there are bubbles for server hardening, XSS, etc..

Best of luck, there's lots of confussing technologies and non-sensical gotchas, but eventually it does start to make sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Might not be exactly what you're looking for in terms of learning Javascript, but I found the Javascript Koans to be pretty cool.. github.com/mrdavidlaing/functional-koans

</comment><comment><USER30> Skip w3schools (seriously). Skip websites on specific stuff. There is, right now, really only one good resource to get your started:

 _The Opera Web Standards Curriculum._ It is the only thing that takes you from A to Z with 100% up to date correct information.

<http://dev.opera.com/articles/wsc/></comment>


Amazing 3d iPhone app - <AUTHOR> http://kode80.com/2010/03/11/holotoy-on-the-appstore-now/ <comment><USER3> As you would expect, it works much better if you close one eye - <USER2> binocular vision the effect mostly disappears.

If you watched the video, you've pretty much seen the extent of the app.

<comment><USER4> I was disappointed to see that it was $0.99. I expect something a little more functional, like a game or something that lets me play with the parameters for $0.99.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There was an iPhone game released in July that uses the same effect for a ball in maze type game.

<http://www.dromsynt.com/diorama/>

</comment><comment><USER6> I started something similar a while ago, but more like a window manager. It would track the user's movement and recalculate all the window positions based on the perceived head position - making the monitor more like a real window. This would enable you to peek behind window edges by moving your head to the side or up/down.

The main barriers I faced was the processing power required to monitor the user's position accurately - needing a camera with relatively good resolution (to get accurate depth perception) and good frame rate (to reduce latency). Also, what to do when another person enters the scene? (Keep tracking the primary / previous target)

Also, using it as a 3d desktop / window manager is probably not worth that much drag on your system - but I could see it being quite useful for cad systems / 3d modelling / prototype development.

Also, developing this way could lead to some interesting developments in the UI field - there's already some development here for the disabled, so is not entirely new - but hasn't really made it to the mainstream desktop...

</comment><comment><USER7> That's impressive, but it seems like more of an exercise for the developer. Its probably something I'd look at once and forget about.

</comment><comment><USER8> its a bit sluggish on my 3g....certainly not as impressive as in the video

<comment><USER9> Nice video. Choppy on my phone. I want my dollar back.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> There's a Nintendo DSi games based on this concept:

[http://tinycartridge.com/post/413663037/dsi-motion- tracking-...](http://tinycartridge.com/post/413663037/dsi-motion-tracking-in- rittai-kakushi-e-attakoreda)

I believe they use the built in camera to sense motion, as there's no accelerometer in the DSi.

</comment><comment><USER11> I just bought it ($0.99) and it is pretty cool. It feels very physical. However, there is some noise in the accelerometer that causes some slight jiggling as you hold it. (Perhaps my phone is starting to die -- I wouldn't doubt it.) Some dampening here might help, but that would introduce latency.

There are only really 3 models/rooms so it is only really good for showing off to other people.

</comment><comment><USER12> They should use this technique for the stack-peeking feature on the Nexus One gallery app: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E1mSSBKEPU>

</comment><comment><USER13> I think this is nice as a proof of concept, but there's really no meat to it. I could see some pretty innovative games being possible with these methods though.

</comment><comment><USER14> This isn't a new idea, in fact here's an app that does the same thing with nude women. NSFW, obviously.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8U6ik6ryQo>

I suspect this got removed from the app store in the recent smut purge, though.

<comment><USER15> That's not the same thing. Your video shows an app rendering frames of animation back and forth using the accelerometer data. The app in the posting uses the sensor data to calculate the orientation of the device and then uses that to manipulate the 3d engine camera location and orientation to create an illusion you are peeking to a 3d world.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Looks interesting from the video... but is it really as compelling in person?

<comment><USER17> It's nothing like the Johnny Chung Lee videos, but it's about as compelling and well-executed as the technique allows. I was at least 99 cents-worth amused.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> For maximum effect, you need one for each eye, and some head-tracking gear.

</comment><comment><USER19> iDesktopVR provides the effect for free, but for simple targets only</comment>


Instagram data breach 49M users' sensitive data exposed online - <AUTHOR> https://www.cisomag.com/instagram-data-breach-49-million-users-sensitive-data-exposed-online/ <comment><USER2> Lengthy conversation about this from the original article when TechCrunch broke this[0] a couple of days ago.

Suggest reading/commenting there than this clickbaity rewrite

HN thread: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19962790](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19962790)

[0] [https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer- celeb...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity- accounts-scraped/)

</comment><comment><USER3> A TechCrunch article[0] suggests that all of this information was just scraped from the Instagram site/API, so is it fair to call this "sensitive" data if it's available to the public anyway?

[0]: [https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer- celeb...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity- accounts-scraped/)

<comment><USER4> same article says :

>>> but also contained their private contact information, such as the Instagram account owner's email address and phone number.

I doubt this is "scrapable".

<comment><USER5> It is actually, if you go to instagram's website and view source, there's a script tag containing a massive JSON payload with the response from their graphql API which contains allllll the data for the page - this includes some information that's not displayed on the page, which sometimes includes email address and phone number. I had to scrape instagram for a school project and stumbled upon this - I was planning to parse the html but if you just take out that script tag as a JSON object you have all the page's data in an object for you already.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Again, Facebook/Instagram servers are not breached but the people that they sell data are breached. Once the data the sell leaves original servers, the data is no longer secure, it can be stolen or misused. Remember Cambridge Analytics?

Facebook really needs to enforce strict restrictions and security audits on third party data brokers.

</comment><comment><USER7> Misleading title. This appears to be a database of scraped data pertaining to Instagram influencers, left unsecured in AWS by a social media marketing firm.

</comment><comment><USER8> Link or just clickbait?</comment>


Irish Minister for Justice considers Apple's iOS 6 Maps dangerous - k-mcgrady http://sociable.co/meme/thats-not-an-airport-its-a-farm-irish-minister-for-justice-is-not-happy-with-ios6s-apple-maps/

<comment><AUTHOR> This was just a publicity measure for the guy's constituency.

No pilot flying in VFR conditions is going to need to rely on a consumer map application running on a smartphone or tablet in the event of an emergency, because they're trained to know their alternate airports and to look out at the ground to identify suitable emergency landing areas.

Similarly IFR pilots are required to file flight plans which often require explicit identification of alternate airports in the case of an emergency and they carry so much redundant equipment that a need to fall back on Apple Maps isn't a realistic scenario.

If you want to highlight the real dangers of people relying on maps with faulty data there are far better examples. For instance in the city in which I live Google Maps for years showed a high-end hotel as being in a really, really bad part of town. Unsuspecting tourists could get themselves into a bad spot just following what their maps app was telling them.

With people relying on the built-in maps apps on their phones to an ever- growing extent, Apple needs to put in a lot of effort to fix Apple Maps and they need to do it fast.

<comment><USER2> It sounds like you're a US pilot, are the regulations similar internationally?

Though I have heard of some pretty ridiculous landing decisions [1], I doubt this map error will increase Airfield's chances of someone landing there. So I totally agree, the situation described is rather preposterous.

[1] [http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps-p...](http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps- plane-makes-emergency-landing-on-arizona-highway)

<comment><AUTHOR> I have experience with the regulations in South Africa, but they are similar internationally as a result of co-operation through the ICAO and other agencies. Most of the world also follows the lead of the US FAA and European JAA in terms of civil aviation regulations.

And yes, pilots have had to make some bizarre emergency landings over the years, but if you're in a situation where the engine quits and you have to get on the ground safely quick the last thing you'll be doing is looking down at your phone or tablet. So yep, preposterous.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> My first thought was that it's ridiculous to assume pilots would ever be reliant on Apple Maps when trying to land their aircraft.

Then I remembered a few similar occurrences:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8366607/RAF- pilots-used-Google-Maps-for-Libya-rescue.html)

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgC4FMftpg>

[http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods- Helicopter-...](http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods-Helicopter- Crew-Used-Google-Maps-to-Locate-Victims-Video-236488.shtml)

<comment><USER4> Quite a few airlines have handed out iPads to pilots already. It wouldn't be a stretch for that to happen eventually...

<comment><USER5> The pilots are not using the built-in Maps app.

<comment><USER6> Pilot here. I will confirm this, and also add that there are many other ways to find an airport (paper maps, atc, handheld aviation gps, built-in gps, airport beacons at night, and also just looking out the window). In an emergency, the last thing I'd do is have my head down in an ipad/iphone. From the aerial shot it appears clear that it's not an airport, but it is probably the largest field around, so it would be a target in an engine failure scenario regardless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his resume.

<comment><USER8> > Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the > art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his > resume.

I feel worse for the intern with ``Microsoft Windows Notepad'' on his resume.

<comment><USER9> In fairness, Notepad manages to basically do what you expect it to.

<comment><USER10> It has an annoying file size limitations, though.

<http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578>

<comment><USER11> > It has an annoying file size limitations, though.

> <http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578>

The link you submitted is for:

        Microsoft Windows 3.0 Standard Edition

        Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.1

        Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.11

<comment><USER10> My bad. I can assure you that they persisted long after that, though. I hardly ever used 3.1 and I replaced Notepad long ago due to them.

Vim is far more useful, anyhow.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I think his statement was more light-hearted than interpreted here.

<comment><USER13> agreed, Irish times interprets it as tongue in cheek [http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/break...](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/breaking20.html?via=mr)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I can't speak to Ireland, but pilots using the Maps app for navigation wouldn't "fly" in the US. There are electronic cockpit apps that can be used on an iPad, but Maps isn't one of them.

<comment> k-mcgrady I don't think that's what the Justice Minister means. It's conceivable that in an emergency, as a last resort, the pilot of a small plane may use the Maps app on an iPad or iPhone so scout potential landing areas. Obviously it's unlikely to happen but it is a possibility (probably not on a 747 though).

<comment><USER15> I would love to hear a sequence of events that could possibly involve a pilot attempting to land on the basis of information from an iPhone map.

There's whole emergency systems in place to ensure things like this don't happen- you know, basic radio contact with the ground being one obvious example.

Irish Government ministers should be dealing with our sovereign debt crisis rather than spouting crap about stuff they've no idea about.

<comment><USER16> There is already a post on this thread about similar events already having occurred - <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4550431>

<comment><AUTHOR> Didn't see any reliance on a maps app for emergency navigation. In the one example the pilots printed out an image from Google Earth as a guide to the terrain of the landing area, they still used their eyes and brains to decide how to land once they got there. In the other they used the app to locate street addresses, but that wasn't critical navigation and the same could've been achieved with a standard street map.

I have yet to hear of any pilot relying on a maps app like Google Maps in an emergency.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I don't know how Apple could expect anything less than this response. They are coming from behind with the incumbent king of maps holding a lead they couldn't possibly hope to close in a first release. Possibly not in the first several releases.

It's a hard problem. Even if you get a good source of data you still have to present it correctly to the user and the best way to fix issues is to get it into the hands of users. If you allow competing maps on the platform though the users aren't likely to use yours unless the data is at least as good and the experience is superior.

I'm not sure this was a battle they should have picked.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'll just leave this here:

<http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/>

</comment><comment><USER19> This is a common problem in Ireland. The locals are constantly using google maps and now apple maps to land their planes.

</comment><comment><USER20> Hope no one using Apple's iOS6 maps tries to land a plane at the "Airport Strip" in Mississauga. Its a strip club.

</comment><comment><USER21> Just be happy you don't live in Ireland.

[1] Our prime minister explaining what cloud computing is - "A wireless connection to shared storage" <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaQxLFl3rQ>

[2] A senator explaining why the abundance of rain on the west coast of Ireland makes it particularly suitable as a base for, wait for it, _cloud_ technology - <https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056460271>

<comment><USER12> The second one was a hoax.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The site is over its bandwidth limit, here's a cache [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fsociable.co%2Fmeme%2Fthats- not-an-airport-its-a-farm-irish-minister-for-justice-is-not-happy-with- ios6s-apple-maps%2F)

</comment><comment><USER23>
        "Clearly the designation is not only wrong but is dangerously misleading in that
        it could result in a pilot, unfamiliar with the area,  in an emergency situation
        and without other available information, attempting a landing."

Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then?

<comment><USER24> > Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then?

It's been there since the 1820s.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Question: are maps in a TomTom GPS as broken as these?

</comment><comment><USER26> Can someone file a bug to rename the farm?

</comment><comment><USER27> Wait! There's an App for that? (Autoland?)

<comment><USER28> Legend has it that a Qantas 747 tried that.

Problem: Autoland landed rough and to the left of runway

Solution: Autoland not installed on aircraft.

Apparently, when the 747 first came out they had issues with the avionics box for autoland, and someone didn't tape-off the panel in the cockpit as unserviceable.

<comment><USER29> Not sure where this is from, but I doubt it's true. Qantas has a fairly good safety record, and as far as I can tell (from Wikipedia and memory), only two incidents have occurred with 747s, and only one during landing: a 747-400 overran the runway in Thailand during a storm.

Sounds more like an urban legend to me.

<comment><USER28> First of all: Qantas have had more "incidents" than that. The Bangkok mishap was the first "accident" (substantial damage to the jet) since they started flying jet airliners.

A Qantas pilot explained the details of how it could have happened. If certain pre-landing checks were not done, and the module was missing, its Plausible for non-functioning autoland in a 747-200 to go unnoticed.

Accidently going off the side of the runway pavement could result in little damage, assuming the jet stayed controllable.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


A study of branch prediction strategies (1981) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse590g/04sp/Smith-1981-A-Study-of-Branch-Prediction-Strategies.pdf <comment><USER2> Today's branch predictors use ideas from machine learning: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12340348](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12340348)</comment>


AWS Console Feedback and Suggestions Wanted - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/aws/comments/3zl22a/aws_console_feedback_suggestions_wanted/ <comment><USER2> do it!</comment>


Interesting discussion on how to better measure the quality of recommendation systems, from the Netflix forums. - <AUTHOR> http://www.netflixprize.com/community/viewtopic.php?id=828

<comment><USER2> From one half of the currently-winning BellKor team.</comment>


Ask HN: I'm not a developer but I got an F8 invite. Should I go? - <AUTHOR>

I'm the head of marketing for an acquired startup here in San Francisco. I'm pretty technical (was trained as a web developer back in the day and can hack things together). I just got an invite to this year's F8.<p>Should I go? <comment><USER2> Phenomenal networking experience. Enjoy

</comment><comment><USER3> Nah. Probably better to just send your invite to me. ;)</comment>


Generic, All-purpose Dashboards Aren't *Not* Smart - <AUTHOR> http://thisiscsr.com/post/40088895750/dashboards-smartness

<comment><USER2> What some people may miss is that the concept of "relevant data" depends heavily on the end user. Good dashboards provide not only vast data, but good tools to let the users do their own analysis.

<comment><AUTHOR> precisely. they create a generation of 'smart' analysts.</comment></comment>


Creating the Next Crisis - <AUTHOR> http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/johnson9/English <comment><USER2> Some good points about moral hazard, but the author confounds two types of bailouts: ones that protect the financial system and ones that don't (e.g. GM, maybe Greece).

The former are thought to be necessary despite the moral hazard risk (which arguably lead to Leahman not cleaning up it's act after seeing Bear Sterns get bailed out), you don't want situations like what happened in the 1929-33 period when 8,000? or so banks failed, in a period without deposit insurance to cover the smaller depositors. Things that wreck the system(s) by which people and companies do their day to day business are to be avoided.</comment>


Every site a mobile site - <AUTHOR> http://www.drawar.com/articles/every-site-a-mobile-site/184/

<comment><USER2> This reminds me of constrained writing: although one doesn't have a rich set of tools or options, one can produce a remarkable peace of work. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby:_Champion_of_Youth></comment>


What I Wish I Knew Before Pitching LinkedIn to VCs - <AUTHOR> http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20131015161834-1213-what-i-wish-i-knew-before-pitching-linkedin-to-vcs?goback=%2Enmp_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1&trk=NUS_UNIU_PEOPLE_FOLLOW-megaphone-fllw

<comment><USER2> it's always interesting to see the down and dirty of pitching - but the most fascinating part is how he seemed to miss what he knows now - the sheer overwhelming power of the network.

Of course the pitch still has the rubbish of somehow monetizing jobs or ads (which they are still trying) and subscriptions to avoid those ads which gosh darn it they are not doing.

I just guess that this is a lesson Facebook and LinkedIn et al must learn - the network is a tiger, and on e you have hold of its tail it will take you places, but it will break free - it is the nature of the network, like information, to be free.</comment>


Retrospective: An Axiomatic Basis for Computer Programming - <AUTHOR> http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/10/42360-retrospective-an-axiomatic-basis-for-computer-programming/fulltext?lot=49

<comment><USER2> _"I have welcomed the enormous increase in the power of automated tools for proof."_ As they say in Wikipedia, [Citation needed]. Which automated tools are these? Is Hoare referring to Coq? HOL? Something else?</comment>


Creating Progressive Web Application in 6 Simple Steps with React.JS - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@tirthbodawala/creating-progressive-web-application-in-6-simple-steps-with-react-js-a9717bd0de78 <comment><AUTHOR> As posted previously we need help from ReactJS developers to contribute and improve the project. Thanks in advance.</comment>


The Pareto Principle and Google Code Jam - <AUTHOR> http://stevekrenzel.com/the-pareto-principle-and-google-code-jam

<comment><USER2> I wonder if the 80/20 rule is really just a misunderstanding of what Jeff Atwood talks about here: <http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001284.html>

Apparently, writing working code ISN'T 80% of the job.</comment>


Show HN: Blue Colony – The Android Wear Appstore - <AUTHOR> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bluecolony.watchappstore

<comment><USER2> BlueColony is probably the most easy-to-use app marketplace on any device and gives new watch users a great overview on the wear-app ecosystem +++1

<comment><USER3> Hi Hanns, aweseome! We love happy users! Wait till you see what's in the pipeline!!! -philippe</comment></comment>


Multistate Disagreement over the Length of the Foot to End - <AUTHOR> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/multistate-disagreement-over-the-length-of-the-foot-to-end/ <comment><USER2> Is US's consistent refusal to adopt something more common like the metric system the ultimate display of "Not invented here" syndrome? (I know imperial was invented by the British, but it's largely just the US left using it) Feels like everyone would be better off if the switch just happened already, as it'll happen one day or another. But they keep on fighting it off, for some reason.

Or does the imperial system have some advantage over metric (not including the fact that everything in the US is already using imperial) that makes it infeasible to change?

<comment><USER3> Customary Units and Imperial measurements are bad, we all know that. However, play Devils Advocate for a moment to see the benefits of these allegedly backwards measurements. Take the foot. This is twelve inches. You can divide a foot into thirds or sixths without any recurring numbers. This is of practical application.

If you are working with some DIY task and everything is in Imperial measurements then it all works out as easy as Lego pieces.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, duodecimal systems (base 12) rock! But is the customary units system consistently duodecimal? Iirc it's not, but I might misremember.

<comment><USER5> No. E.g. a foot is 12 inches, but a yard is 3 feet.

<comment><USER6> And a chain is 22 yards and a furlong is 10 chains and a mile is 8 furlong (which is why a mile is 1760 or 5280 feet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Whilst standardisation is obviously important, the article references an anecdote where a building had to lose a storey due to the usage of the 'wrong type of foot'. This does not seem overly plausible given the error would be <2mm over the height of the Burj Khalifa.

<comment><USER8> It was likely the measurement of the distance between the airport and the building that was the problem.

edit: thinking about it, it still doesn't make sense. The difference in distance would be about 2 cm over 10 km.

<comment><USER7> Indeed, even if you were Elon Musk, building a space elevator to ISS and you used the wrong type of foot, you'd only be 80cm out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is ludicrous. Can we switch to the metric system already?

</comment><comment><USER10> How about the inch. I know when you say your height, in US, you use feet + inches. And inch is defined also in regards to meter (2.54 cm) but also in regards to foot (12 inches == one foot). The what kind of foot is used, and does the inch then varies in length as well?

<comment><USER6> The issue here is the _surveyor 's foot_, which as its name indicates is only used for surveying (and corresponds to the pre-metrication foot).

That's like nautical miles. If you're in a nautical context "mile" can be ambiguous, but if you're not then it's just the mile (well except there's also a survey mile).

Anyway the answer to your question is that in 1959 all non-metric units of length (and weight) were standardised internationally and defined in terms of metric units.

So outside of specific contexts (like surveying), an inch is 2.54cm and a foot is 12 inches of 2.54cm or 30.48cm. The "reference" unit is actually the international yard at 91.44cm, with there being 3ft to a yard, and 12in to an ft.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Lot of "why not metric" comments. Heres what I think is the main reason: it's just not worth the effort. The US isn't missing out on tangible benefits from not standardizing with the rest of the world. Where it matters in science, we already use metric. Day to day, who cares? Why go through all the trouble to switch? You need people to retrain with a new system, retool signs and equiptment, and so on. It's just not worth it to be able to divide units by 10 more easily, especially when the system we already have is full of powers of 2 or 12 which are frankly a bit easier to divide with day to day (1/3 of a foot is 4 inches, while 1/3 of a meter is 33.33333333.... centimeters). It's just not worth the hassle.

<comment><USER12> My physics teacher at school told us many times how lucky we were not to have to work in imperial. I'll take his word over yours.

There's a midpoint between science and day-to-day (engineering). Anyway, if you want the US to continue its decline, such a can't-be-bothered attitude will help.

Edit: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter)

"However, on September 23, 1999, communication with the spacecraft was lost as the spacecraft went into orbital insertion, due to ground-based computer software which produced output in non-SI units of pound-force seconds (lbf·s) instead of the SI units of newton-seconds (N·s) specified in the contract between NASA and Lockheed."

Some people don't learn.

<comment><USER11> Who in physics works in imperial? Research is solidly metric in the US.

The mars orbiter loss was due to a failure to perform the necessary checks etc to make sure the mission was on track. Continue reading the section about the failure report. The discrepancy had been noted by humans and had been brought up, but the concerns were ignored because they failed to fill out the correct paperwork, and NASA takes responsibility for the loss, and does not blame lockheed.

<comment><USER12> > Who in physics works in imperial? Research is solidly metric in the US.

The Mars Climate Orbiter was a research vehicle, no? It wasn't expected to make money I'm sure.

> was due to a failure to perform the necessary checks etc

Which would have been unnecessary had they both used the same units.

> and NASA takes responsibility for the loss, and does not blame lockheed.

I did not mention blame, why did you bring that up? Point is, had they used the same units this failure mode would have been closed off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "international foot"

Almost every other nation uses the meter.

<comment><USER14> India uses foot (that's 15% of the world by population)

<comment><USER2> Everywhere I read (including [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_India)) says that India is using the metric system since somewhere around ~1960.

<comment><USER14> Check the last paragraph of the link you've submitted. You can see the word feet used there many times, suggesting that "feet" is used to measure a lot of things and is the most commonly used while describing a property from a real estate perspective.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Is it just older people in the US who want to keep using customary units? Does the younger generation use metric and they'll switch over time?

I don't think I'd have the mental arithmetic required to calculate things in terms of sixteenths!

<comment><USER16> I'm a big fan of converting to Celsius. It would probably be the cheapest thing to switch to.

Kilometers? We have more than four million miles of road in the US, and lets rough-guess at the VERY least two speed signs each mile, one each direction. The real number on average is probably double that.

Then there are "mile markers" and every freeway sign that lists distance by miles.

Then there are cars that don't have highly visible kM speedometer markings.

Specific industries may shift to metric, and surely things like surveys probably could. But the total conversion? I would bet on many structural changes in the United States before that ever happens.

Voting reform, Constitutional amendments, DC and PR statehood, banning reality TV, all seem more likely than moving to metric.

<comment><USER17> Honestly, there's probably less justification in switching to Celsius than other units. Pretty much the only place Fahrenheit really falls down is that it's different from the rest of the world--and the vast majority of Americans are not exposed to that difference on a day to day basis.

Yes, you need to remember what the rather arbitrary seeming freezing and boiling temperature of water are, but that's not a big deal. And you actually get a finer grained measurement system without resorting to decimals. And you're less likely to need negative numbers for ordinary temperatures. (And, if you do, you know it's really really cold.)

Finally, while the Celsius degree size is used in a lot of technical calculations, the absolute scale isn't usually. Kelvin is used instead. So if anything were the "right" unit to use it would be Kelvin, but that would be fairly obviously silly for day to day use.

<comment><USER18> In my field of research (condensed matter Physics and Thermodynamics), the split between Kelvin and degrees centigrades is about 50%. Anything that gets in contact with industry tends to use °C for some reason.

<comment><USER17> When I was doing material science (long time ago), as I recall we'd obviously use Kelvin for calculations where you needed to use an absolute temperature scale. But if we were just stating an annealing temperature or something like that, we'd use Celsius.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Should switch the foot to a light-nanosecond so all those quick engineering estimates could be the actual length.

<comment><USER20> Just because I needed to look it up:

\- 1 International Foot = 0.3048 m

\- 1 US Survey Foot = 1200/3937 m ~= 0.3048006096 m

\- 1 light-nanosecond ~= 0.2998 m

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> And of course, both kind of foot are defined in meters.

</comment><comment><USER22> So the US finally standardises on a single international standard for distance, and they standardise on _feet_?

This while confusion over different types of feet is the entire reason why the metric system caught on like a wildfire. Before the metric system, every city used to have its own foot. Most, not all, were 12 inches, but they also all had their own inch.

</comment><comment><USER23> Or you could solve this problem by switching to metric...

</comment><comment><USER24> Meanwhile the SI refined its definitions further in the last few years, making it transferable to our possible future alien overlords from outer space.

I really cannot fathom how such an inconsistency as the disagreement over a unit that is nonstandard, weird and custom anyways could be allowed. The rest of the world got its act together roughly 200 years ago, admittedly with some leftovers, but those vanished over time...

</comment><comment><USER25> Pretty much every house in the US is built on imperial. Unless everyone in the country wants to tear down their house and rebuild for solely the purpose of moving to the metric system then there will Imperial stuff tools manufacturing and such pretty much forever.

Cars and machinery are Imperial as well but they have much lower lifetimes than houses.

I remember reading somewhere that just changing speed limit signs would cost more than 100 Billion to change and that was a modest estimate. I wish I could find where they did the math.

</comment><comment><USER26> The metric system sends thoughts and prayers

</comment><comment><USER27> Why not use the meter?

<comment><USER11> Just not worth the effort to switch. What do we gain that's worth getting everyone to relearn everything? We already use metric where it matters.</comment></comment>


Announcing your plans makes you less motivated to accomplish them - <AUTHOR> https://sivers.org/zipit <comment><USER2> This is contrary to successful programs such as Weight Watchers etc. I will have to do a bit more research into this as it seems against all logic as well.</comment>


MixPanel Platform - <AUTHOR> http://mixpanel.com/api/docs/guides/platform <comment><USER2> What a brilliant idea. What do people think of this UI switch-up (from an ameteur designer trying to get better)?

[http://f.cl.ly/items/88b19cf0a0964af0e53d/Screen%20shot%2020...](http://f.cl.ly/items/88b19cf0a0964af0e53d/Screen%20shot%202010-10-14%20at%205.16.53%20PM.png)

<comment><USER3> Agreed. The current funnel is hard to read in the summary page

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Beautiful. The end-user-facing charts would have saved me lots of hours...

<comment><USER5> More charts: <http://mixpanel.com/api/docs/guides/platform-ui>

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've been using mixpanel's platform for a couple weeks now and have been super pleased with it overall. Being able to deliver stats to my end users has been a big success.

<comment><USER7> what's up? :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> In comparison with Clicky the pricing is very expensive to track actions on high traffic websites. Probably good for startups in subscription space that have lower traffic / high revenue per user though.

</comment><comment><USER9> Good stuff! I need to find time to make the switch to MixPanel.

</comment><comment><USER10> i just got MixPanel patched into analytical

<http://github.com/jkrall/analytical>

</comment><comment><USER11> Great idea.</comment>