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Video: Fight or Play?
Learn to read canine body language
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Submitted by Kathleen St. J. | April 8 2011 | Permalink
It's always interesting to watch Daisy play. Since she's dog-aggressive, she only has a couple of approved pup pals she can play with. Her favorite friend is my parents' dog, a very patient Lab named Hawkeye. When we first let them be off-leash together, she would seem to get her emotions confused -- she wanted to play, but her hackles would go up and she'd go from playful to aggressive from moment to moment. It was like she was fighting with herself.
After almost four years, she's gotten so that she clearly "states" her desire to play as soon as she sees Hawk, sniffing politely, play-bowing and giving him gentle nibbles. She's a big fan of chasing, so she'll start running around crazily, getting Hawk to follow. The bouts of play usually end in a nice sunbathing session. So cute.
Submitted by Judy Stove-Wilson | April 8 2011 | Permalink
Great to see this issue raised. Our pitty cross, Nelson, and neighbour's Belgian shepherd, Rocket, two large male black dogs, play like this all the time: teeth bared, wrestling, taking turns to dominate. They intersperse this with short chases and bringing-down each other (luckily we live on acres!). This keeps them fit and burns off boredom. Occasionally if one (usually Nelson) hurts the other (usually Rocket), there is a squawk and some irritated snapping, and Nelson backs off, grinning, tail vaguely waving, for a moment.
But yes, it's definitely all play - and very entertaining to watch!
Submitted by Anonymous | April 8 2011 | Permalink
Thanks for posting this! My Jack Russell plays so rough with other Jacks, snapping, "snarfing", teeth clacking, nose skin all furled up, and lunging. I have similar videos that can be confusing for people who see it for the first time. The dogs are just enjoying good play time and its great fun to watch when you understand the games! Thanks, again.
Submitted by Anonymous | April 9 2011 | Permalink
definitely not a fight. i board dogs and this would be completely acceptable and super fun here! some over the top playing can get carried away, but this was maybe a 6 out of 10 in my experience, just FUN.
Submitted by Anonymous | April 9 2011 | Permalink
They are playing. See how they keep their mouths open all the time. Also, the one dog was almost laying down, not striving for domination. They stop very quickly, look around and sort of smile. No meanness there. I take my dog to the park often and I can tell when the play is getting too serious and I take my dog to another area. Dogs have short memories.
Submitted by Dr Dawg | April 11 2011 | Permalink
I recommend John Rogerson's Dog Vinci Code for insight into your dog's issues.
Submitted by Caitlyn | April 11 2011 | Permalink
I used to work at a doggy daycare, and if these two dogs played like this in the yards, I would not worry about them, but would proably interrupt eventually to force them to take a break. However the key points are: reciprocation, both are playing equally and neither is trying to get away from the other; they are easily interrupted by the dog on the couch(?) and the shake-off by Jolie at the end shows that they are just playing and it's not too serious business.
I will say that I have seen several dogs (mine included) who engage in this sort of play almost every day at a daycare, and eventually they will develop arrousal issues. I am not saying that the kind of play shown in this video is inappropriate, nor that daycares with playgroups are inappropriate either. But too much of a good thing can be bad in some cases, and people need to look at their individual dogs when thinking about daily/frequent playdates.
Submitted by Anonymous | April 11 2011 | Permalink
I don't understand why you allow that behavior in the house.
Submitted by anonymous | April 13 2011 | Permalink
LOL. "Honing their attack skills?!" Good Dog. Dogs are not wolves, and they are not like little wolf puppies "practicing" their attack skills. That movie shows typical, happy dogs engaging in totally normal, safe, and fun behaviour. I have rescued, rehabilitated and re-homed nearly 100 dogs, some from severe abuse. Some spent years with no home of their own, and having to hunt for their own food. These dogs eventually learn how to play and enjoy life, just as in the above video. If these dogs don't end up becoming aggressive from such play than a typical breeder-bought dog certainly would not. My dogs would hate it if they could never wrestle, and especially mouth wrestle. That's the most fun of all!
Submitted by Dawg Dr. | April 11 2011 | Permalink
I can usually tell a dog who is left in PlayCare all day. They exhibit "Dogginess"- extreme interest in getting to other dogs to rough-house.
Submitted by Anonymous | April 15 2011 | Permalink
They are so similair in play styles! All the mouthing and sneezing! I love it!!
Submitted by Anonymous | April 15 2011 | Permalink
Patricia McConnell has a great seminar where she shows all kinds of photos and video about what is play and what it not. I actually attended twice.
Submitted by danielle | April 15 2011 | Permalink
The sneezing kills me! I don't think fighting dogs would be sneezing quite so much! :-) In your observations, does that come up a lot in play?
With the dogs we've owned, I've also noticed a lot more vocalization in play (except in what we call "head wrestling," which is just a lot of mouthing and head moving), while the fighting tends to have a few significant barks or growls and is more silent in intent. But I've also had people terrified for one of our dogs in pure play situations--he just always preferred to play-fight on his back.
Submitted by Team Bat Pack | April 15 2011 | Permalink
Great essay! I have two very high energy herding breeds and they play very roughly with one another. My Border Collie "stalks" my Cattle Dog...then pounces on her hard so she'll chase him. Then my Cattle Dog tackles him to chew on his hind legs. HE LOVES THIS GAME. They growl and snarl and throw each other around.. taking a break every few seconds for a sneeze, then POUNCE, ROLL, SNAP, GROWL, TUG, CHEW. When they are wrestling around, if you touch my cattle dog she gets even louder with her growling and barking.
Although, it looks like my Cattle Dog is being a bully to my Border Collie in this particular video, trust me - he's usually the instigator. :)
Submitted by Michelle | April 15 2011 | Permalink
People have a hard time telling when my girl is playing sometimes because she growls CONSTANTLY. This big deep growling noise. But her face is relaxed and she sort of tucks her lips around her teeth. You can tell if you look at her and see the play bows and the relaxed ears and lips and eyes.
Her usually play style is chase, however. She loves to chase and will happily run after any dog who wants her to and sometimes even entices dogs to chase her. She also loves TUG and will growl most ferociously while playing.
Submitted by Kara Dannenhold | April 15 2011 | Permalink
It's simple! Just look for pauses/breaks in their play. Dogs trying to actually kill each other won't do that. GREAT topic! Too bad most of The Bark readers already know this - it's like preaching to the choir. This article should be posted at dog parks everywhere!
Submitted by Jackie | April 15 2011 | Permalink
Our Golden & Collie have a play style very similar to this. We know it's still play by the more open-mouthed approach - and tails basically in "wagging mode." Our Collie in particular, however, can sometimes get overly excited and slip into a more seriously aggressive mode. As others have mentioned, we watch for the open-mouthed approach changing to more snapping, changes in the "tone of voice" and generally more frenzied pace/pitch of things. Our Collie is a rescue who had been abandoned out in the countryside. We suspect she had to learn to do some serious fighting in that situation, in self defense. I suspect that's what causes her to sometimes slip into a more dangerously aggressive mode when she gets overly excited. Otherwise, the Golden is her best friend - she would never purposefully hurt him.
Submitted by Tracy Graber | April 15 2011 | Permalink
This is great, I am going to share this! As a dog training instructor for a major pet supply store chain, I find that many people panic when they see any teeth action or hear any growling during dog-play. I run a "Puppy-Play Social Time" (free) every Sunday, and teach people about "puppy -play body language", so this is perfect! Thank you for sharing!
Submitted by oc dogman | April 15 2011 | Permalink
this is great and I think I will start to incorporate videos like these in my upcoming group training classes. This is a hot topic for many and I get called for aggression cases where, like here is just good solidly matched dogs having a good play. thank you! www.occaninecoaching.com
Submitted by Rachelle W. | April 15 2011 | Permalink
My dog Bailey (GSD/lab/husky/??? mix)'s favorite play activity is wrastlin', just like the dog's in the video. She's relaxed, tail is wagging, and she's "smiling". She might flash her teeth and "tag" her opponent with them, but she (and the dog she's playing with) never ever hit hard enough to break skin. The motions are also much slower than actual fighting. The dominance scuffles I broke up during the 1st couple of days I had my 1st foster dog in the house were faster and louder, and you could tell Bailey meant business...but she still held back from actually breaking skin with her teeth. (BTW, dogs will be dogs, and this is how pack order is normally established, but she got a correction every time, and after 2 days, figured out a more "civil" way to communicate that she was the top dog).
Real fighting is truly scary - and there will be actual blood. That's your dead giveaway. :)
Submitted by Anonymous | April 22 2011 | Permalink
My dogs play loud. They do like your dog. The teeth showing sometimes, But my demon is a lot louder during play. He sounds evil but is gentle.
At the dog park I have to explain to people that it's all play. It's healthy for them to wrestle. Wears them out, builds up their muscles.
The difference between play and fight is easy for me. a fight- hackles up, tail either right above back not moving or tucked between legs and the dog is in the face of the other dog with teeth bared.
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Here are the key events involving Christopher Dorner, the fired Los Angeles police officer suspected of killing at least four people including a police officer in Southern California and a deputy in San Bernardino County, and posting a manifesto on Facebook outlining plans to kill the families of those he felt wronged him. The case was declared over after Dorner's remains were found inside a Big Bear cabin after he barricaded himself inside, shooting at police during the standoff.
READ: Murder Suspect Chris Dorner's Online Manifesto
PHOTO GALLERY: Christopher Dorner
DOCUMENTS: Legal Papers Challenging The LAPD, including Gettler's video testimony
FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: 'Dorner Is Like Kaczynski'
Friday, Feb 15: Bagpipers, pints and tears at fundraiser for slain officers.
Friday, Feb 15: San Bernardino County Sherrif's Office declared the case is over. In a news briefing, according to a chilling account given by Capt Herbert, their people were under almost constant fire. They had to rescue two wounded. They had a plan with tear gas, PA announcements calling Dorner by name, and urging him to surrender, then, using heavy equipment literally ripping holes in the walls of the cabin. The last resort was the incendiary tear gas.
Thursday, Feb 14 [7:45 p.m.]: Questions arise about who is to receive the $1 million reward.
Thursday, Feb 14 [4:00 p.m.]: Remains found in burned out Big Bear Cabin positively identified as those of fugitive ex-cop Christopher Dorner according to San Bernardino Co. Sheriff's Department. Jodi Miller, a spokeswoman for the San Bernardino County sheriff-coroner, said the identification was made through Dorner's dental records. Miller did not give a cause of death.
Wednesday, Feb 13 [5:00 p.m.]: Nancy Dorner, the mother of Christopher Dorner, breaks silence with a statement, speaking to FOX 11's Robin Sax. Nancy told Robin she wanted to let the public know they do not condone Christopher's actions and to offer their deepest sympathies and condolences.
Wednesday, Feb 13 [1:00 p.m.]: The name of the deputy killed in yesterday's shootout has been released: Jeremiah Mackay. Thoughts and prayers are with his family.
Wednesday, Feb 13 [10:00 a.m.]: A funeral is underway for Riverside Police Department officer Michael Crain who was allegedly shot and killed by fugitive ex-cop Christopher Dorner.
Wednesday, Feb 13 [6:51 a.m.]: AP source: Dorner's license found in burned cabin
Wednesday, Feb 13 [12:01 a.m.]: San Bernardino Co. investigators have located charred human remains within the debris of the burned out Big Bear cabin. But the major question still not answered tonight are the remains that of Christopher Dorner? Identification will be attempted through forensic means.
Wednesday, Feb 13 [12:00 a.m.]: Funeral Services for Slain Police Officer Michael Crain to be held today at 10:30 a.m. at Grove Community Church in Riverside.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [8:06 p.m.]: At an 8 p.m. press conference, LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith said reports of a body recovered from the cabin are not true since the cabin is too hot for authorities to go in. He also said that reports that the body was identified as Chris Dorner are untrue. LAPD says they will remain on high alert for now until body is found and identified.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [7:50 p.m.]: LAPD to hold a press conference at 8 p.m.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [7:04 p.m.]: A law enforcement official tells The Associated Press a charred body has been found in the burned cabin where a fugitive ex-cop is believed to have been in a standoff with sheriff's deputies.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [5:52 p.m.]: A law enforcement source tells the AP that the fugitive Dorner never came out of the cabin, and a single shot was heard inside before the cabin was engulfed in flames.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [5:49 p.m.]: Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa tells reporters that "our hearts and prayers are with the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department." Villaraigosa said he called a number of officers targeted by Dorner in his manifesto "to tell them our hearts and prayers are with them ... none of us can imagine what they had to go through."
Tuesday, Feb 12 [5:39 p.m.]: Officers look to be letting this cabin completely burn to the ground. The fire appears to not be affecting any other cabins.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [5:27 p.m.]: A source tells the AP that the man believed to be Dorner never emerged from burning cabin.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [5:20 p.m.]: Cindy Bachman with the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department said at a press conference that "we have reason to believe that it is him." Today's events, she said, began at 12:20 when deputies got reports of a stolen truck. The people whose vehicle was stolen from their home described the suspect as looking similar to Dorner. When authorities closed in on the vehicle, the suspect, believed to be Dorner, abandoned the vehicle, ran into the forest, and barricaded himself inside a cabin. A short time later there was an exchange of gunfire between law enforcement and the suspect.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [4:25 p.m.]: Fire could be seen coming from a cabin where Dorner is suspected to be holed up. There are reports of explosions and ammunition coming from inside the cabin. We're told tear gas was lobbed inside the structure.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [4:22 p.m.]: Both officers involved in the gunfight were with the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department. Both were transported to Loma Linda Hospital. Officials say one officer died.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [3:47 p.m.]: FOX 11 has learned that one of the law enforcement officials wounded in the gunfight has died.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [3:25 p.m.]: At a press briefing, LAPD Cmdr. said he could not confirm whether Dorner was in the cabin but urged the fugitive to surrender. "Enough is enough," Smith said. "It's time for you to turn yourself in. It's time to end the bloodshed."
Tuesday, Feb 12 [3:08 p.m.]: San Bernardino Sheriff's Office has asked members of the media to stop tweeting.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [2:50 p.m.]: LAPD to hold a news conference at 3 p.m. PT
Tuesday, Feb 12 [2:46 p.m.]: Roadblock set up on Highway 330
Tuesday, Feb 12 [2:35 p.m.]: Schools in the Big Bear area are under lockdown
Tuesday, Feb 12 [2:25 p.m.]: Dorner is barricaded in a cabin in Big Bear after a shootout with authorities that wounded two officers.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [2:10 p.m.]: Two law officers have been wounded in a gunfight in the mountains east of Los Angeles with a person believed to be a former Los Angeles police officer.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [1:44 p.m.]: A person believed to be Dorner gunfire with authorities in the San Bernardino Mountains on Tuesday, a law enforcement official said on condition of anonymity. The officer told The Associated Press it's believed Dorner committed a residential burglary of a cabin and had a couple tied up in the cabin.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [1:38 p.m.]: The noise of the gun battle was broadcast by a local TV station, whose reporter suddenly found himself near the fight. Someone could be heard yelling at the reporter to get out of the area.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [1:30 p.m.]: AP law enforcement source: Fugitive ex-cop exchanges fire with Southern California authorities.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [12:40 p.m.]: A man was carjacked at gunpoint by a man that he says no doubt is the suspect Dorner. Rick and his faithful dog were able to comply without incident, as the suspect drove off with their vehicle.
Tuesday, Feb 12 [11:30 a.m.]: A prosecutor who filed a murder charge against a fugitive former Los Angeles police officer that could result in the death penalty said he believes the man hasn't finished carrying out his vendetta. "Just read his manifesto and look at his actions," Riverside County District Attorney Paul Zellerbach said. "He's trying to send a message, and it would be my belief that his message is not completed yet."
Monday, Feb 11 [9:00 p.m.]: Family Friend of Victim Monica Quan Speaks Out. As the search for Chris Dorner continues, it's important to know that his alleged victims are not forgotten. FOX 11 spoke with a family friend of Monica Quan who was killed along with her fiance last week.
Monday, Feb 11 [8:00 p.m.]: Tijuana Hotel Raided Thursday Night in Search of Dorner. The Hotel Tapatio was searched by more than 20 officers. No evidence of Dorner was found on the property, but officers responded quickly after someone reported seeing Dorner at the hotel.
Monday, Feb 11 [5:30 p.m.]: TMZ reports that Dorner went to a Southern California sporting goods store 2 days before he began his murder spree to purchase scuba equipment and TMZ has obtained the surveillance video.
Monday, Feb 11 [2:30 p.m.]: At a news conference held by authorities today, the Riverside County District Attorney said felony charges have been filed against former LAPD police officer Christopher Jordan Dorner.
Monday, Feb 11 [9:40 a.m.]: LAPD Press Conference - Southern California authorities were investigating hundreds of tips Monday after offering a $1 million reward for information leading to Dorner's arrest.
Sunday, Feb 10 [10:35 p.m.]: Search for fugitive ex-cop sets region on edge on Sunday. Several tips came in within a few hours after the award announcement.
Sunday, Feb 10 [9:35 p.m.]: A mother and daughter newspaper delivery team who were mistakenly shot by Los Angeles police hunting for a fugitive former cop will get a new pickup truck courtesy of the department. Chief Charlie Beck met with the women in their Torrance home to apologize and tell them he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck.
Sunday, Feb 10 [7:45 p.m.]: UPDATE - Los Angeles police have issued an all-clear in the area of the Lowe's Home Improvement store in Northridge.
Sunday, Feb 10 [5:00 p.m.]: The manhunt for Dorner led LAPD SWAT officers to a Northridge Lowe's home improvement store after people reported seeing someone who resembled the fugitive former police officer there. LAPD swarmed the store off Nordhoff Street about 5 p.m. Customers were escorted out of the store as police looked for any signs of Dorner.
Sunday, Feb 10 [1:47 p.m.]: Riverside Police officials identified Michael Crain, 34, as the veteran training officer allegedly killed by Dorner in an ambush shooting early Thursday. The Riverside native and Redlands High School graduate served two tours in Kuwait with the Marine Corps. Crain was honorably discharged from the Marines and joined the Riverside Police Department in 2001.
Sunday, Feb 10 [1:30 p.m.]: Detectives are investigating a taunting phone call that may have been made by a fugitive ex-LAPD officer to the father of the woman they believe he killed in Southern California. The caller allegedly told retired police Capt. Randal Quan that he should have done a better job protecting his daughter. Monica Quan and her fiance were shot dead last Sunday.
Sunday, Feb 10 [1:10 p.m.]: LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa announced the reward at a news conference at LAPD headquarters Sunday. Some 80 miles to the east, SWAT teams continued to scour snow-covered mountains near where the 33-year-old fugitive's charred pickup truck was discovered Thursday.
Sunday, Feb 10 [1:00 p.m.]: Seeking leads in a massive manhunt, Los Angeles authorities on Sunday offered a $1 million reward for information leading to the arrest of Dorner, the former police officer suspected in three killings. The reward comes a week after former LAPD cop is believed to have begun a revenge-driven killing spree that has so far netted three victims.
Sunday, Feb 10 [1:30 a.m.]: The manhunt for Dorner enveloped a San Bernardino apartment building before dawn because of a report that the ex-LAPD officer was hiding there — though it wasn't true. A SWAT team along with officers from San Bernardino, Riverside and Irvine swarmed the area about 1:30 a.m. Sunday, at 1525 East Eureka Street, just west of Del Rosa Avenue.
Saturday, Feb 9 [10:00 p.m.]: The manhunt for Dorner is still ongoing. No one knows where he is, or where he will show up next. But one of the lines in his haunting manifesto has police worried he could target tonight's Grammy ceremony for an attack.
Saturday, Feb 9 [10:00 a.m.]: Police Chief Charlie Beck announced officials will re-examine the allegations by Dorner that his law enforcement career was undone by racist colleagues. While he promised to hear out Dorner if he surrenders, Beck stressed that he was ordering a review of his 2007 case because he takes the allegation of racism in his department seriously.
Friday, Feb 8 [10:35 p.m.]: Still no sign of Dorner as the hunt continued all day around Big Bear in a driving snow storm. Earlier, search warrants were served at the Orange County house Dorner had been staying at with his mother. Finally, tonight for one of the first victims, a memorial for Monica Quan, one of the three allegedly shot and killed by Dorner.
Friday, Feb 8 [9:28 p.m.]: The Riverside police officer shot and killed in an ambush allegedly perpetrated by a fired Los Angeles Police Department officer on a killing spree will be buried next week. Funeral services for the officer, whose name is being withheld at the request of Riverside Police Department Chief Sergio Diaz, are scheduled for 10:30 a.m. Wednesday at Grove Community Church, 19900 Grove Community Drive.
Friday, Feb 8 [5:05 p.m.]: Irvine police released a more recent photo Friday of fugitive ex-cop Dorner, who is wanted in connection with three slayings. The photo of Dorner, 33, was taken at an Orange County hotel where he was captured on a surveillance video Jan. 28, police said.
Friday, Feb 8 [4:00 p.m.]: Cindy Bachman, a spokesman for the San Bernardino County Sheriff's office told reporters that there's a possibility he's still in the forest. Units will look for him until they determine he is not there. She said units will remain searching overnight into Saturday. Bachman added that the snow is hampering their ground and aerial searches.
Friday, Feb 8 [12;00 p.m.]: As of noon Friday there has been no sign of Dorner, but San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon says searchers will press on unless there's evidence Dorner has left the Big Bear Lake area. Deputies have searched many residences and are now focusing on 200 vacant cabins in the surrounding forest.
Friday. Feb 8 [11:00 a.m.]: LA Jail Under Lockdown Over Chris Dorner
Friday, Feb 8 [10:00 p.m.]: In this exclusive video, Christopher Gettler, who is mentioned in murder suspect Dorner's "Online Manifesto," is deposed regarding his interaction with a training officer who allegedly kicked him as reported by Dorner.
Friday, Feb 8 [8:23 a.m.]: Court documents show an ex-girlfriend of a former Los Angeles police officer suspected of three murders called him "severely emotionally and mentally disturbed" after the two split in 2006. Documents obtained by The Associated Press on Friday show ex-officer Christopher Dorner unsuccessfully requested a restraining order against his ex-girlfriend after she posted his badge number on a website called Dontdatehimgirl.com.
Friday, Feb 8 [7:08 a.m.]: More than 100 officers in glass-enclosed snow machines and armored personnel carriers have been looking for Dorner in Big Bear Lake, near where his burned-out pickup truck was found yesterday. Snow has been falling, possibly covering the trail of tracks that led away from the truck.
Friday, Feb, 8 [7:00 a.m.]: Hoax call but no sign of ex-cop wanted in killings. San Diego County sheriff's deputies spent the night surrounding and searching a rural home after a hoaxer reported Dorner was there. It tied up 16 deputies.
Friday, Feb 8 [12:00 a.m.]: Suspect Christopher Dorner still at large. Manhunt continues.
Thursday, Feb 7 [8:00 p.m.]: Several businesses in Big Bear closed down for the night early as the manhunt for Dorner moved through the mountain community after dark.
Thursday, Feb 7 [6:30 p.m.]: Riverside Mayor Rusty Bailey speaks to a group attending a vigil outside Riverside City Hall. A group gathered Thursday night for a vigil after two Riverside Police officers where shot, one fatally.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [3:30 p.m.]: San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon announces at a news conference that a door-to-door search for Dorner is under way.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [2:30 p.m.]: Authorities confirm that the pickup truck found near Bear Mountain ski area at Big Bear Lake belongs to Dorner.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [9:40 a.m.]: Naval Base Point Loma in San Diego is locked down after a Navy worker reports seeing someone who resembles Dorner. Two hours later, Navy officials say they don't believe Dorner was on base.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [9:30 a.m.]: Authorities in central and northern Arizona are alerted about the manhunt for Dorner along with a description of the vehicle he may be driving.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [8:30 a.m.]: Reports surface that authorities are investigating a burned pickup truck near the Big Bear ski area in the San Bernardino Mountains. A San Bernardino County sheriff's deputy says there have been no sightings of Dorner but local school officials decide to put schools in lockdown.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [5:15 a.m.]: LAPD officers guarding a manifesto target in the Los Angeles suburb of Torrance open fire on a truck they mistakenly believe to be Dorner's. Two women are wounded. A short time later, Torrance police are involved in a second shooting involving a different truck they also mistake for Dorner's. Nobody is hurt.
Thursday, Feb. 7, [2:18 a.m.]: A shuttle bus driver turns in a wallet with an LAPD badge and a picture ID of Dorner to San Diego police. The wallet is found less than five miles from the boat, near San Diego International Airport.
Thursday, Feb. 7 [1:30 a.m.]: In the Riverside County community of Corona, two LAPD officers assigned to protect a person named in the manifesto chase a vehicle they believe is Dorner's. One officer is grazed in the forehead during a shootout, and the gunman flees. A short time later, a gunman believed to be Dorner ambushes two Riverside police officers who had stopped at a red light during a routine patrol. One officer is killed and the other critically injured.
Wednesday, Feb. 6 [10:30 p.m.]: A man matching Dorner's description tries to steal a 47-foot boat from a San Diego marina, but the engine won't start. An 81-year-old man on the boat is tied up but unhurt.
Wednesday, Feb. 6: Irvine police announce they are looking for Dorner as a suspect in the killings of Quan and Lawrence, and say he implicated himself in the killings in a manifesto posted on Facebook. U.S. marshals and other law enforcement officials, acting on a credible lead, search Wednesday night for Dorner in San Diego's Point Loma area.
Monday, Feb. 4: [9:30 a.m.]: Some of Dorner's belongings, including police equipment, are found in a trash bin in the San Diego-area community of National City, Calif.
Sunday, Feb. 3: Monica Quan, 28, and Keith Lawrence, 27, are found shot to death in their car in an Irvine parking structure. Quan, an assistant women's basketball coach at California State University, Fullerton, was the daughter of a former Los Angeles police captain who represented Dorner in disciplinary hearings that resulted in his dismissal.
The Associated Press contributed to this report


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Microsoft Increases Xbox Live Subscription PricesBy Xav de Matos, Aug 30, 2010 10:00am PDT Although Nintendo has seen fit to lower prices today, Microsoft has decided to take the road less traveled. Today, Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb announced that Microsoft will increase subscription prices for Xbox Live beginning November 1, 2010. (Just in time for that Call of Duty: Black Ops game everyone is talking about!) In the United States, annual subscription prices will increase to $59.99 (up from $49.99), three-month plans will increase to $24.99 (up from $19.99) and one-month plans will rise to $9.99 (up from $7.99). Canada, Mexico and the United Kingdom will also see increases. In response to the change, Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR) vice president of analyst service Jesse Divinich noted, "When taking into account for inflation ($50 in 2002 is roughly $60 in 2010) and the additional services available to Gold subscribers in 2010 [...] a $10 price increase still represents an incredible value to consumers." According to its own data, the EEDAR claims 30% of Xbox 360 owners have played a game online "15 times or more in the last 3 months," compared to 23% on the PS3 and 10% on Wii. Nintendo and Sony do not charge consumers for online gaming. Sony recently launched a subscription service of its own, giving PlayStation Plus subscribers an assortment of bonuses for an annual fee. Although the EEDAR believes the price increase "will do little to impact the positive momentum of the Xbox 360," Shacknews asserts that comments attached to this post will most certainly skew on the negative side.
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By: maxwell97 x Show Full PostPeople sure like to whine. First, when you consider that an entry-level 360 costs only $200, compared to $300 for a PS3 and $800+ for a decent gaming computer, the fee isn't that bad. Second, it's not like you don't get anything for the money - Xbox Live is the best online structure for consoles. Third, the value of the dollar has dropped off enormously versus foreign currencies, and with the current fiscal course of the feds, it's only going to get worse. So get used to it, everything is going to cost more.Aug 30, 2010 10:36am PDTPeople sure like to whine. First, when you consider that an entry-level 360 costs only $200, compared to... : maxwell97
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 27 replies.
And some people like to defend their favorite multi-national corporation. If this was about the val... : Beelzebud
Heh, a company adjusts it's pricing on a product and it is "ruining gaming." That's fantastic. : TickHeadDog
Try to keep up. It's not this rate hike that is ruining gaming. It's the fee in the first place. It'... : Beelzebud
But here's the thing - they DON'T make me pay anything for it. I pay for Xbox Live because I like the se... : maxwell97
It's why a 3 map pack for a game now costs 15.00, when they used to give that sort of thing away for free : ColoradoCNC
Signed: Microsoft spokes person : Batmanshack
lol, $800 for a decent gaming computer. Where do you live? Best online structure for 7 year old girls w... : SharpShooter324
You should feel right at home there. : Endymion_
It even bricks too! : mobab
Actually, that's a 360 exclusive : Vegetolo
tell that my friend who got the yellow light of death : sasquatchxing
Honestly the only thing that bothers me is I feel like I DON'T get much value for my money. I don't thin... : Lucy Labia
By: spoofie x Show Full PostWow this changes a lot for me considering I was going to get that new Xbox. Now I'm seriously considering to just buy a ps3.Aug 30, 2010 10:16am PDTWow this changes a lot for me considering I was going to get that new Xbox. Now I'm seriously considering... : spoofie
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 31 replies.
Yeah, $10 a year is like 2.7 cents a day! If you were serious about getting a 360, I can't see how thi... : kwperley
Well for a lot of people who come from PC gaming or even the PS3 (myself included) we know how much of a ... : ShXIII
Because your paying $50 a year for the ability to play online, and access to a few lame features such as ... : ReckHavoc
PSN happens to companies that think they can get by without charging a fee to support their ongoing netwo... : JamesArhy
Its not just $10 a year. Its $60 a year. That's one game each year that he can't buy because he wants t... : HisDivineOrder
Isn't PSN a paid for service now, setup just like xbox with gold and silver levels of access? : X-Nice
Lol this logic is retarded. He will probably spend $1,500 on cigarettes or $5,000 on alcohol in a single ... : VegasX
Yea great idea! so when does it end? soon it will be even more and its all because of people like you who... : Bill32399
Buy the PS3 or build a gaming PC. : HisDivineOrder
By: TrustAvidity x Show Full PostI still think they should keep Gold the way it was for the same price then come up with a higher level called Platinum or somethin' and throw in all that other stuff like Twitter, Facebook, etc. and let people pay extra that want it. Make it a choice. PS: Even with the price hike: LIVE > PSNAug 31, 2010 8:32am PDTI still think they should keep Gold the way it was for the same price then come up with a higher level ca... : TrustAvidity
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 6 replies.
That's actually a really good idea. I would go for that definitely. I would rather keep gold and remove a... : X-Nice
By: jtthe2nd x Show Full PostKind of bad timing what with the worst recession to hit the U.S. in decades still in full swing.Aug 31, 2010 12:18am PDTKind of bad timing what with the worst recession to hit the U.S. in decades still in full swing. : jtthe2nd
By: watcherxp x Show Full PostLoving all the apologists in this thread. This is not a "good thing" people.
The console folks let this happen, and now that the genie out of of the bottle, it will continue until someone changes the paradigm.Aug 30, 2010 11:11am PDTLoving all the apologists in this thread. This is not a "good thing" people. The console folks let thi... : watcherxp
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 29 replies.
XBox Live has so many more features and functionality than it did even 2 years ago. You can't argue that... : MaxPete82
ok well keep enjoying spending $250 on a video card every year to keep up with the PC Gaming Jones's ;) : VegasX
Thanks to consoles, you don't need to spend to much on a video card to enjoy superior graphics and resoul... : ReckHavoc
My $70 Radeon 4850 I picked up a couple years ago can still manage any game out there at 1920x1080.* : ColoradoCNC
I have'nt spent $250 on a video card for about 3 years and I can still run everything. And to add to that... : Bill32399
Didn't the come out recently and say they were going to increase the quality of the sound that XBL uses? ... : EpicVandal
By: darthfusion x Show Full PostThis is how it starts...Aug 30, 2010 7:24pm PDTThis is how it starts... : darthfusion
By: mexpak x Show Full PostWill the extra $10 finally allow us free content updates from companies like Valve?Aug 30, 2010 9:15pm PDT
By: araczynski x Show Full Postif the kids want to be milked, let them. all the more power to microsoft.Aug 31, 2010 6:19am PDT
By: dengar65 x Show Full PostAny Shackers interested in buying a still-sealed 12+1 month Xbox Live Subscription?
I never use my 360 anymore and I'll otherwise sell this thing locally. I paid $50 for it so I'll sell it to a Shacker for $40 or maybe a Steam Gift if you can think of one.Aug 30, 2010 2:01pm PDTAny Shackers interested in buying a still-sealed 12+1 month Xbox Live Subscription? I never use my 360... : dengar65
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 6 replies.
Huh? I believe I said $40. : dengar65
By: darksied x Show Full PostI'm sure there's going to be a lot of people saying, this sucks, next time I'm getting a ps3. Well, this console generation isn't over, I'm sure there's going to be another 2 or 3 years of the 360, so that makes you wonder how much in live costs you'll pay until the NEXT iteration of the 360 (which might have even higher online costs). I think I'll pick up my ps3 now and save on the online costs.Aug 30, 2010 11:06am PDTI'm sure there's going to be a lot of people saying, this sucks, next time I'm getting a ps3. Well, this ... : darksied
By: Lukiopimp x Show Full PostSurprised they held the price of 50 USD for so long. Dollar is getting weaker and weaker. The additional services mostly cover US based systems anyway, so fair deal imo.Aug 30, 2010 10:54am PDTSurprised they held the price of 50 USD for so long. Dollar is getting weaker and weaker. The additional ... : Lukiopimp
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 3 replies.
ESPN's expensive, y'all. : HisDivineOrder
So is Twitter and Facebook, apparently. : Anastomosis
By: MondayJBlack x Show Full PostWhy is a price increase always paired with "incredible value"?Aug 30, 2010 12:26pm PDT
By: jodiuh x Show Full PostI'm confused. Do we actually get anything new and free wo/ an additional subscription for that $10?Aug 30, 2010 10:14pm PDT
By: baron calamity x Show Full PostWith the cancelling of 1 vs 100, I was thinking about dropping my gold subscription after it runs out anyways. This just seals the deal.Aug 30, 2010 11:38am PDTWith the cancelling of 1 vs 100, I was thinking about dropping my gold subscription after it runs out any... : baron calamity
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 6 replies.
But Uno, man. Uno. : Endymion_
By: X-Nice x Show Full PostWhy all the nerd rage? Who has ever paid full price for an xbox live subscription? Don't worry, I'll wait...
I refuse to pay more than $35 for my Xbox Live scripts' every year. So far it has served me very well, as they offer deals all the time. Stuiff like this doesnt matter to most shackers here. I know you all have heard of "hotdeals" section. I know Hardocp has one, I know Anandtech has one.
The only idiots that are mad about this, are misinformed children that just like to whine because its the internet. Seriously folks, its just a pho... game.... service?Aug 30, 2010 11:31am PDTWhy all the nerd rage? Who has ever paid full price for an xbox live subscription? Don't worry, I'll wait... : X-Nice
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 12 replies.
"You just stick your credit card in and pay when you want stuff? Way to get ripped off, IDIOT!" : HockeyJohnston
I dont follow.... : X-Nice
If the base price goes up by $10, do you think your $35 deal price will stay the same? : darksied
And if Microsoft stops letting amazon undercut them? What will you do then? You realize its the makers ... : HisDivineOrder
Honestly, I do not even play my xbox even more. It RROD'ed on me like 3 months ago and I been too busy en... : X-Nice
By: ant_hillbilly x Show Full PostTime to stock up on the $35 13 month cards.Aug 30, 2010 10:34am PDTTime to stock up on the $35 13 month cards. : ant_hillbilly
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 8 replies.
No kidding. :/ : BlockheadBrown
By: jucheidea x Show Full Postgood thing if I even bother playing a console game I go with the PS3Aug 30, 2010 9:22pm PDT
By: migz7 x Show Full PostMaybe we can get the government to bail us out and pay for our Xbox Live subscriptions?Aug 30, 2010 6:20pm PDTMaybe we can get the government to bail us out and pay for our Xbox Live subscriptions? : migz7
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 6 replies.
This is a terribly misguided and pointless analogy for some unknown ideological bullshit. : Rape.Farm
By: code-e255 x Show Full Post$60 to allow you to use a peer-to-peer service.
Even $50 was a rip-off in my opinion. I'll never pay for Xbox Live.Aug 30, 2010 8:41pm PDT
By: phinn x Show Full PostSo now a 360 = $360. The most expensive console... Xbox FTL.Aug 30, 2010 8:08pm PDT
By: Thund3rball x Show Full Post/Hugs his PS3, PC and Wii.Aug 30, 2010 11:26am PDT/Hugs his PS3, PC and Wii. : Thund3rball
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 15 replies.
Fantastic! lol : Thund3rball
Sure: http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/109/1093021p1.html And have fun with Friend Codes. : Fred Garvin
Plus is already out and is a non-issue for actually playing games online unlike Live : melkore
By: ShXIII x Show Full PostThis is one of the main reason why I refuse to buy a 360, some people have no idea how much they are getting ripped of even before this increase.Aug 30, 2010 10:25am PDTThis is one of the main reason why I refuse to buy a 360, some people have no idea how much they are gett... : ShXIII
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 12 replies.
He's decided that it isn't worth paying for, so it isn't, and everyone who does is getting ripped off. Si... : Endymion_
Because you're paying for online matchmaking (not even servers in a lot of cases)? A feature that was fr... : HisDivineOrder
By: sniii x Show Full PostI just logged into my live account to turn off automatic renewal of my live account. Besides there being no clearly labeled link to do so, I had to click "next" through 3 pages of advertisements to finally confirm that I did not want to be automatically charged at the end of the year. Pretty lame.Aug 30, 2010 12:00pm PDTI just logged into my live account to turn off automatic renewal of my live account. Besides there being... : sniii
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 4 replies.
By: BlockheadBrown x Show Full PostI fixed this:
raise gougeAug 30, 2010 3:23pm PDTI fixed this: raise gouge : BlockheadBrown
By: SlingBlaze x Show Full PostI assume it may be related to Kinect.
Raise the price now rather than later so all the new owners had no idea the price raised happened.Aug 30, 2010 1:45pm PDTI assume it may be related to Kinect. Raise the price now rather than later so all the new owners had ... : SlingBlaze
By: Dolemite x Show Full PostOne way to look at it would be that all Gold Subscribers now get to pay $10 per year minumum for ESPN3 - because it really seems like thats all that changed. I already get ESPN3 through FiOS, not that I ever use it.
You can already video conference with the live cam if you really want, and Kinect video chat may be higher res but thats about all I see... on top of the $150 for the Kinect sensor.
Really I was hoping that when this happened Microsoft would roll out some really cool new feature to justify it. I am disappoint son.Aug 30, 2010 3:07pm PDT
By: X-GOUKI x Show Full PostI cancelled my subscription last month. Xbx live is the measuring stick for console online gaming no doubt about it ,but after more than 5yrs of paying for it and a bunch of xbx1 games I can no longer play online, and pretty much nothing to show for it I called it quits.
It was easy getting a game going with friends, but I just don't feel I'm getting my moneys worth anymore,
specially knowing that 2-3yrs down the line most game's servers will be shut down just to
make me buy the new version.Aug 30, 2010 1:58pm PDT
By: mort x Show Full Postseamless private, party and friends only voice chat is worth at least $100 annually to meAug 30, 2010 12:50pm PDTseamless private, party and friends only voice chat is worth at least $100 annually to me : mort
By: ajvitaly x Show Full PostI still see this as a yearly membership needed to use all the features of your console or to be able to play your $60 game the way developers made it.
All of which I laugh at.Aug 30, 2010 1:18pm PDT
By: a176 x Show Full PostWhy the hell would they raise the price for regions that don't even get the same features as the US?
Pay more to get less? Are you fucking kidding me?Aug 30, 2010 1:00pm PDT
By: trineas x Show Full PostSo Pachter was right then?
"I don't think you're going to see the price go up to a hundred bucks over night," Pachter said in the show. "I think the first one will be fifty (dollars) will become sixty. That's a very easy thing to do."
http://www.examiner.com/xbox-360-in-national/pachter-xbox-live-could-increase-priceAug 30, 2010 11:54am PDTSo Pachter was right then? "I don't think you're going to see the price go up to a hundred bucks over ... : trineas
Thread Truncated. Click to see all 5 replies.
Indeed I am sir. : Fred Garvin
By: WARisPEACE x Show Full PostI wonder if any of the extra cash will go towards Major Nelson himself for putting up with the constant backlash for everything MS does. Poor guy needs a vacation.
Or a pizza. Mmm, pizza.Aug 30, 2010 12:27pm PDT
By: AlphaBovine x Show Full PostThe other side of the coin is the subscription fees that are coming down the pipeline from Activision, EA, and other companies.
EA's plan of charging a nominal fee to enable multiplayer on new games is yet another expense for used game buyers or renters. While this will not matter to new game buyers in the scenario it does beg the question of what will happen with the other publishers.
Bobby Kotic has repeatedly said that he would love the CoD universe to have a subscription model for online multiplayer and whatever form that takes you are now forking over more money and it adds up here and there.
PSN is free but it comes at a cost. The bandwith is no where near as high as Microsoft's when it comes to downloads as well as other features such as no cross game chat (as of this post) so for those who only have one of the 2 consoles it just makes you think about what you want to do budget wise because I foresee that no matter what console you own, the day is coming when publishers/developers are going to charge you to play their multiplayer regardless if you are on XBL or PSN.Aug 30, 2010 11:17am PDTThe other side of the coin is the subscription fees that are coming down the pipeline from Activision, EA... : AlphaBovine
By: Boxelder x Show Full PostI should cancel it. haven't used it in ages.Aug 30, 2010 12:18pm PDT
By: TheMongbat x Show Full PostFucking bullshit. An extra 83 cents a month. That's it, Mr. Softy. I've got my shotgun and I'm headed to Redmond. You better not be there when I arrive.
Oh wait, how much is a gallon of gas? Never mind.Aug 30, 2010 11:24am PDTFucking bullshit. An extra 83 cents a month. That's it, Mr. Softy. I've got my shotgun and I'm headed ... : TheMongbat
By: geedeck x Show Full PostAlso, a bunch of Shacker discussion in this thread: http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=23854201#itemanchor_23854201Aug 30, 2010 10:27am PDTAlso, a bunch of Shacker discussion in this thread: http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?id=23854201#itemanch... : geedeck
By: xeropulse x Show Full PostFear not people! MS does this for everything. Remember last gen, when games dropped for $50? Yeah, them's the days...
For the people saying "it's ONLY $10 more", it's a tough thing to swallow. New games for $60, and even used games could cost up to $60 if these companies have one-time use multiplayer codes and charge you for a new one. Your own internet service comes at a price as well, remember? I see that even those companies are planning/wanting to charge more as well. Nickels and dimes really do add up. But if a $10 hike really does worry you, walk outside for a minute, it'll help :)Aug 30, 2010 11:45am PDTFear not people! MS does this for everything. Remember last gen, when games dropped for $50? Yeah, the... : xeropulse
By: HisDivineOrder x Show Full PostGuess they gotta pay the cable bill for ESPN and this is the best they could think up.Aug 30, 2010 12:05pm PDT
By: RookieCAF x Show Full PostI love my PeeCee!Aug 30, 2010 11:59am PDTI love my PeeCee! : RookieCAF
By: Surbo321 x Show Full PostYa saw this over at Gadgetank.. i'm sorry but i've paid about 200 dollars into xbox live at this point. This is kindof pushing the evelope farther than it had to go imho.Aug 30, 2010 11:26am PDT
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The world of simulation/civilization games is quite crowded. Gameplay tends to be similar, and the overall looks of the games tend to be crafted from
My Street is about a bunch of kids who get together and play games. The demo did not reveal much more of a story than that, and based on the targeted
The runner on first takes off for second. The pitch nips the outside corner for a called strike, and the catcher bounces to his feet and fires a miss
This ultra-realistic racing simulator should be a top notch game, if the Beta Test I received is any indication of what the finished game will give y
Like a good action flick, Primal throws players right into the middle of the action. The demo began without a hint of control information -- the minu
The city has been evacuated which is indeed a good thing. With those Mechs zipping between, above and around buildings, blasting away at one another,
Nexagon takes unit gladiatorial combat into the fourth millenium A great many games have been predicated on the theme of gladiatorial combat. After a
The war had raged for 100 years, so long that the reason it all began was blurred in history. All that remained were two sides, battling for territor
Sony and Team Soho have teamed up to bring us a new action title for the PS2 console and judging from the preview version, it's going to be an incred
The constant is erratic in battle, while those who arent quick are merely dead. And on the battlefield, what can start to look like a stroll in the p
Disaster Report is a different kind of survival game. Not unlike a survival/horror game, Disaster Report takes place in a giant city, but zombies are
Metal Gear Solid revolutionized the spy/mission genre. Metal Gear Solid 2 refined it. Believe it or not, Splinter Cell has taken the great concept th
Beauty can sometimes hide evil and challenge. And imaginary lands can be more colorful than reality. Take the world of Zanzarah for example. It is co
The old adage is that the world is what you make of it. That can be amended. The world is what you, and every other massively multiplayer online role
Star Trek: Starfleet Command III is attempting to boldly go where no Star Trek title has gone before. In fact, you could say that not only is this a


text:
By BOB CHRISTIE
Associated Press
PHOENIX (AP) - A bill allowing politicians to more easily launch campaigns for another office without triggering Arizona's "Resign to Run" law has passed its initial hearing in a House committee.
Republican Rep. John Kavanagh says his bill will end what he calls the "charade" of politicians essentially lying to the public about only exploring a run for another office when everyone knows they're running.
The 1980 voter-approved law requires incumbents seeking another office to resign if they're not in the final year of their term. But they're allowed to have exploratory committees, collect signatures and raise money.
Kavanagh's bill allows politicians to make a formal declaration and says an official run under the law happens only when they file candidate papers.
It passed a House committee on a party-line vote Thursday.
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1 1/4" Ranger Belt
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Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12
Eeek! I hope you're better soon, Mandy. Being sick is not cool. I had a glass of wine and am watching some WWE wrestling to chill out.
Remember that thread about Lady Gaga in the wheelchair? I was telling DH about it and he showed me this. I laughed so hard! Kind of goes to show it's just people's reactions to Lady Gaga and not the wheelchair!
Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12
I love Bette Midler's tweet! That was too funny! And you're right, nobody ever complained about her.
Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12
I have a week off work and I'm just mind boggled at all the things I want to go out and do with the kids since we won't be confined to the house!
Ooh, that sounds great! Have a great time!
Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12
Thanks for asking, Chrissy. I did. He took some xrays and showed me exactly where the problem is, said the bones in my neck are actually curving the wrong way but he is confident he can realign me. I am also waiting on a referral to see a headache specialist just to be sure there is nothing else going on. On friday I had such a bad one that I woke up in the middle of night and was just standing at the kitchen crying. Dbf came in and I told him I seriously wanted to jump off a bridge at the thought of going through another day with that pain. But luckily when I woke up it was gone. And I know I got it in the first place because Sawyer was awake and while waiting for him to fall back to sleep, I sort of curled in a ball at the foot of the bed and fell asleep that way. I CAN'T do that! I have to sleep on my neck pillow, flat on my back.
It just so happens that both of the families I've been caring for for years now had to end care abruptly due to job loss/layoffs. They are likely coming back but either way I'm taking a week to reorganize and then I will start recruiting families. There was a faint glimmer of hope that I might get to take a really long break and just focus on schooling my own children and taking them on adventures but just when I started to get excited about the idea, dbf got all weird about it and turned it into a "who works harder" argument that I couldn't stomach, so I shelved it.
I'm glad you're seeing the chiro and I hope he can get you some relief fast. I can't believe you were crying in the kitchen. That just breaks my heart.
How sad for those families. at dbf. I swear Bridget I don't know how you put up with him. I'm not a violent person but I'm pretty sure if I had to live with him I would cuff him upside his head.
I have a busy day cleaning our old place and shampooing all the carpets. Almost all the rooms are carpeted. Ugh. But it needs to be done and hopefully the inside will be finished today. Next weekend we're getting Conner's wooden swing set and trampoline. We also have to get my kitty because she's been taking off and won't come near Rich or Tim when they're up there.
Oh, funny unrelated to anything story: Rich went to put the windows up on his truck last night around midnight. It's pitch black here and he opened his door to reach in and turn the key on (they're electric windows) and 'something' leapt out of the truck, landing on his chest, and ran/clawed it's way over his should and down his arm. It ran away...Rich shouted "WTF?!" and I turned to look and see him sorta dancing/spinning in the driveway. That's all I saw. He was like, "Something just got me!" I thought he meant something bit him. It took a minute to get what happened out of him. I'm glad he didn't scream like a girl-I woulda peed my pants (after I knew he was ok). Welcome home?
Too bad about your daycare families Bridget. Really, I would ignore your DBF and go ahead and take some time and spend with the kids. If he wanted to bring up money or working harder, I would ignore him. I agree with Chrissy and I would want to smack him upside of the head!! I would even tell him that (which I do to my DH) that when he says such idiotic things and attempts to make everything a competition, I want to smack him upside the head. I think my DH has finally gotten it through his skull that I do not want to compete with him in anything and I don't give a crap about what he does at work versus home versus anything else. Please don't shelve your idea unless it is for a valid reason, not your BF being idiotic and argumentative.
Chrissy, so sorry about your mortgage payment. I hope they will see the stamp with the date that shows you were not late. I know here we can go into the branch and pay, maybe if you spoke with a branch manager (if you haven't already) they can clear up the whole mess for you without too much trouble. And I also wonder what the animal was on your DH. Honestly, I probably would have been laughing seeing my DH dance with a critter LOL! My DH would have screamed though. He is pretty chicken about stuff like that.
DH is thinking of becoming an urban farmer. I got a promotion and raise recently (regarding that email I told you ladies about some time ago) so we will have enough for him to try to start something part time. DH is a country boy at heart and really I think it would be good for him. He has been at his job for about 7 years and works as a bankruptcy clerk for the federal trustee and really that sounds important but it is very boring. I would never want to do what he is doing and I like low-key jobs. He thinks it is ridiculous that I have been in my job less than year and now make significantly more than he does. He doesn't feel valued and really I think they don't value him either so he is looking into getting a plot and doing SPIN farming part time for a while to see how it goes. There are vacant lots in our neighborhood for $2K. I'm sure we can talk them into $500 since we live in such an undesirable neighborhood and not many people want to buy anything over here. I also think it would be good for the neighborhood and could potentially provide jobs to a lot of the good people around here without employment. But we will see.
I'm back! And my name changed while I was gone. I don't know if I will get used to it
Chile was amazing and beautiful, but also maddening and frustrating. The main problem we had was a cultural indifference to lines - they don't sort themselves in an orderly fashion at all, but mill about and casually step ahead if they see an opening, etc. It was driving me NUTS, especially when we were in the ski lift lines.
The drive up to the hotel in the Andes took about ten years off my life - I have never been so terrified of a mountain road. We passed two wrecks and one incident where paramedics were giving CPR to a guy (heart attack maybe?). I cannot express to you how tweaked out I was when we finally got there - I had to take half a clonopin (sp?) and lie down to try to calm down, but I was having trouble breathing and my heart would randomly start pounding out of my chest since we were at such a high altitude so my nap didn't work out very well. I didn't really feel okay until the next day. There wasn't much snow, and one of the lifts was broken so we were only able to ski about 25% of the mountain - such a disappointment, but what was there was fun to ski.
We stayed at two beautiful old hotels- the first was Casa Real, an old mansion that has been converted into a little B&B - I think it was one of the most beautiful places we have ever stayed. I felt like I was on a movie set the whole time. I would love to see it in the summer.
It was fun, but I am tired - we just got home after traveling since 1 p.m. yesterday. I am too tired to do anything, but don't want to lie down because then I will be down for the count. Maybe I should try to go to the gym...
"Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov
That sounds so cool, Katy! (Love the new screen name!) Did you take any pictures to share on here or FB? It's always interesting to see what cultural differences are when you go somewhere new....like here, people just are happy to stand in line all day with slow customer service whereas I'm shouting inside, "could we frackin' move, people, or what?!"
Erin, that urban farming sounds pretty cool. I hope your DH can do something like that. There's nothing worse than being in a job that sucks the soul outta ya.
Today has been such a better day than yesterday. The weather was much better, too. We took Travis to the movies to see Cars 2. He loved the whole experience (but I think his favorite bit was getting to eat M&M's and popcorn!) We then went to the pub for a full Sunday dinner and then the rest of the day in the back yard soaking up the sun.....such a great day.
Erin, the bank isn't local to us. It's EMC and they have offices all over the country...just not in NY apparently. I think we normally send our mortgage payment to TX, but the 'delinquency office" is in Ohio. One branch does not know what the other is doing. I'm scared to Google customer reviews for EMC Mortgage 'cause the last time I did I read one nightmare after another. I'm just going to pretend to myself that everything will be fine. Till proven otherwise (like a foreclosure notice).
Katy, your trip sounds fantastic-except the ride up the mountain! Yikes! I'd love to see some pictures of it.
Ash, I'm glad today was better. As far as waiting in line, I don't get impatient with that. Well, not normally. I remember one time I was trying to buy heals to go to a funeral because mine broke on my way there and the lady at the store felt it was more important to arrange all her bags before she rang me out. It was hard not to snap at her.
Sooo, I have a potentially embarassing situation and because I'm pretty socially inept I thought I would run it past you guys. Today I went to pick up DH at his friend's house and I met his wife and we hung out for a while as the guys were finishing up their game. We got along great. When I got home I found that I had gotten my period I'm worried that I might have left a little stain on her fabric covered barstool I sat on her husband's couch in the basement too. Should I say something (I got her facebook name today) or what?
Katy, that hotel looks amazing!
Chrissy, yay for hot water!
Kate, I would be too embarrassed to say anything, but I'm also socially inept so you might not want to take my advice.
Erin, that's cool about the urban farming. Let us know how it goes if he decides to do that. There's nothing more depressing than a job you hate.
Me (40) DH (47) & furbabies * m/c 7/08 4/12 11/12
Oh Kate that's terrible! And absolutely something that would happen to me. I'm not sure how I'd handle it. Maybe if you end up chatting with her 'live' and the conversation is fun and light I'd bring it up. But then again...why? What if you did mess something? Are you going to offer to go over and clean it up? I mean, I'm sure it's already been taken care of.
My neighbor guy stopped up and we had a nice visit. He's going to excavate our back yard but it won't be till this fall. I'm very relieved about this.
Erin! How exciting that your dh wants to be an urban farmer. That sounds so great to me and he is lucky to have you, such a supportive partner.
Chrissy, wtf kind of creature was that? Your description gave me the chills!
Kate, I would not say anything but I for sure do not follow the rules of social ettiquette so maybe i'm wrong too but I just can't imagine a way to bring that up. I'm sorry it happened though, that really bites. But I can say without hesitation that if I met a woman that I liked and after she left I found a stain like that, it would not make me feel any differently about her.
I am going to take my time and do my thing with the daycare. I actually mentioned to dbf that I might just take part time kids so that I can have some more free time to take the kids out to do things and he still gave me a hard time about that even. I told him he was very unsupportive and he should be ashamed of himself since I have always supported him and his ways and never pressured him to take any work he didn't want to.
Today I took the kids to my dads and dbf said he needed to stay home to finish the roof on his boathouse. This was after I had asked him to come since I needed to grocery shop on the way home and of course that's easier with help. But I didn't ask twice. He stayed behind and me and the kids had a nearly perfect day. They were so well behaved and fun. Then we come home to dbf half drunk and the boathouse roof looking no different. Apparently him and his buddy "unloaded some stuff" or whatever I honestly don't have the energy nor inclination to care. He's so annoying when he's been drinking that I cannot even stand it. And the kids don't like him like that either. He has this really fakey, sickly sweet way of talking that makes my skin crawl.
Last edited by Bridget; 07-24-2011 at 08:20 PM.
I'm sorry, Bridget. I know exactly the tone you mean and it is like nails on a chalkboard - every syllable sounds like a lie.
Chrissy - I hope your mortgage stuff works out without issues. You deserve a break.
Gwenn, I hope you get the answers you need to make progress.
Erin - that sounds like a great idea! I have a friend who is starting a farm here - it is a combination hydroponic and fish farm, where the fish are part of the eco-system and the plants are grown in water so that there is no soil and no need to water anything or plow or do anything but grow vegetables in big tanks of water. I don't know much about it, but it sounds interesting!
Myles - I'm sorry about your boss. It is so hard to not look incompetent when you aren't given all the info you need. I know you can figure out a way to work within that, but it sucks that you have to spend your time on that rather than work. I think that is one of the reasons why I hate working in offices - I just cannot stand dealing with co-workers and bosses.
Kate - I would not bring it up with your new friend at all ever, unless you get to be really good friends and ten years down the road after several glasses of wine you can fess up. Otherwise you are looking to make it a really awkward situation.
I hope I haven't forgotten anyone. If so, I will try to catch up more later...
I will try to post some photos tomorrow, but if you want to take a look in the meantime, here's a link to my flickr gallery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/katyegg...7627273836754/
"Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day-to-day living that wears you out." -Anton Chekhov
kate, I personally would suck it up and say - with as much composure as possible - that I'm sorry if I stained a piece of your furniture today because I'd found some on myself when I got home. That way, if there was something left behind, you're owning up to it and can offer to help correct it in whatever way you agree, and if she says she didn't find a stain, you can just be vague about the source of the stain you were talking about. But then again, I tend to sometimes make people feel uncomfortable with the things I bring out into the open, so perhaps I'm not the best person to prescribe the "appropriate" thing to do. I guess I'd just do it for the sake of my own karma/peace of mind.
I confess, right now, in the background I am listening to, and not even looking at, this guy's YouTube channel. He was a guy I was kind of obsessed with my senior year of college that I sort of went out with, if you could call it that. He was all kinds of messed up, but charismatic, and in those "experimental" days, I mistook his confusion for some other intriguing quality and imagined he might have something to teach me. (Not that I had my head on straight back then either.) I'm reading this novel right now tells a pretty similar story, and it is stirring up a lot of emotions about our relationship. In a nutshell --- and this is the first time I'm saying this with any sort of conviction --- the first time we did it was not consensual, though not the least bit violent. And instead of reading him the riot act like I should have...what did I do? I tried to make a relationship work with him for a good 7+ months...as if that was going to redefine what happened the first time. Anyway, the guy was just this emotional cripple whom - I'm embarrassed to say - I cared for and I let manipulate me, partly because I'm way too tolerant of extreme personalities and partly because I had no self-esteem back then. Watching him now, his YouTube videos are completely unintelligible. I mean, they can't even hold my full attention after all these years because they're so nonsensical. After years of experiences with other people's psychoses, I recognize his ramblings now as the product of a severely psychologically disturbed mind. It's kind of carthartic to see him today and just be able to wave him off as a sick individual and a stupid mistake on my part, but... I gotta confess... some of it still feels raw even after 16 years. I think I'll feel better after I finish my book, but - wow - I didn't really expect to be revisiting these feelings (and Googling/FB-searching the source of them right now). I am hoping I just get some healthy perspective after all is said and done. The thing that sticks out to me tonight, though, is that I dated at least 4 other guys as broken, self-centered and toxic to me as this guy was. I guess you do have to kiss a few frogs before meeting your prince, but... do they have to be poisonous frogs?
To put that all in perspective, a good friend of mine lost her baby girl last Friday night. 2 weeks ago, she had a placental abruption at 28 weeks and an emergency C-section. I visited her in the hospital last Wednesday, and at that time, all seemed optimistic. The baby was drinking a lot of colostrum and had good vitals. Then they found out about a catastrophic brain bleed she suffered at birth, and they made the difficult decision to let her pass. (Steve & I both discussed this and agreed we would lean towards the other decision, but we're not judging her, especially not having been in their shoes.) To make matters even more sad, this is the 2nd baby girl she lost, as the first one, in 2005, was a stillbirth when her placenta abrupted again only 10 days before her due date. I have had the blues on and off today, thinking about it. We visited them today, as they're sitting shiva until tomorrow. My friend was as pail as a ghost and cried on her friends' shoulders the whole time we were there. It just makes me thankful overall for the multitude of ways I've been blessed until now.
I guess to tie the last 2 paragraphs together, I should just be grateful, that I was able to step away from guys like the YouTube rambler I used to date, that - for whatever reason, whether it was a hunch or just the fact that I wasn't interesting enough to be brought along - I never ended up down the same rabbit hole as them. So because it all went down the way it did, I now have a truly decent husband and this amazing kid. And maybe if Mr. YouTube and company hadn't been so effed up, I wouldn't have been ready to appreciate how sweet and cool my DH is. OK, I'm starting to sound cheesy here, but it's all from the heart.
Happy Monday, ladies.
Enough about me...
Chrissy, how are things with your payment?
Katy - welcome back. I know the disorderly lack of lines you refer to, and it is so maddening! But I hope you post some pictures soon. It sounds so beautiful.
Erin, I hope your DH really gives it a go. It would be so great for your kids to grow up with farming, and I'll bet he could really take off with it. Farmers' Markets and coops are such a big "thing" nowadays, that there's bound to be an increasing demand for local fresh grown products in your area.
Mandy, I hope you feel better.
Bridget, I'm glad your chiro work has progressed.
Last edited by demigraf; 07-25-2011 at 10:51 AM.
3andme! Take care of the spammer!
I was thinking about it last night and when I went back to the basement to look for my purse I didn't see a stain on their cream colored couch. So I hope if I did leave a stain on the dark blue barstool later, it is really tiny.
Well I just saw she confirmed me as a friend on facebook so it must be all good