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Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:30 PM
Redfairen (1,276 posts)
Unions suffer steep decline in membership
Source: Associated Press
The nation's labor unions suffered sharp declines in membership last year, led by losses among public sector workers in cash-strapped states, cities, counties and towns.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics says the unionization rate fell from 11.8% to 11.3% of all workers, the lowest level since the 1930s.
Total union membership fell by about 400,000 workers to 14.4 million. Teachers unions were among the hardest hit, with the ranks of public school teachers and educators falling sharply.
Unions also saw losses in the private sector, even as the economy expanded modestly. The private sector unionization rate fell from 6.9% to 6.6%.
Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/23/unions-labor-employment-workers/1858201/
21 replies, 3205 views
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Unions suffer steep decline in membership (Original post)
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Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:33 PM
upaloopa (11,417 posts)
1. Thank the right and the "why should you get
something I don't have" mentality.
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:39 PM
patrice (47,992 posts)
2. At-will employment is legalized discrimination. I have yet another friend who found this out
this week.
People fear for their jobs.
Response to patrice (Reply #2)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:23 PM
1983law (213 posts)
8. Can you explain that?
Not sure I understand how employment at will is discriminatory.
Response to 1983law (Reply #8)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:49 PM
patrice (47,992 posts)
9. People can be fired for practically anything at all, without recourse, EEOC offices are charged
with VERY narrow responsibilities regarding discrimination in employment, primarily: race, gender, or age, I think, and establishing a termination on any of those grounds can be an un-reasonably difficult, long, and expensive process for most people.
I know there are avenues through the NLRB for addressing employment injustice; I don't know the specifics of those, but I can guess that there's probably quite a bit of one-size-fits-all incongruence between what the NLRB does for the entire nation and the sorts of things that can be extremely detailed and specific to a particular relatively unique work environment.
"At will" is the legal tag for the employer's rights in terminations: even though there may be nothing wrong with your work, or even if it is superior, or if you have created something that has become the employer's property and some issue develops between you, the creator, and the employer-owner, and users of whatever, say, something that the employer-owner of the intellectual property that you created doesn't want users to know about the product or process, for example . . . stuff like this can result in termination, but also anything else that the employer desires to terminate for, as long as an employer can avoid a case that they are prejudiced and discriminating on the basis or race, gender, or age, they can fire you for ANYTHING, because you are employed legally "at (their) will" alone.
So terminations can be for whatever reason, dressed up a bit with whatever hokey window dressing an employer can conjure or nothing at all, a few words in some employee handbook, or a "job description" or a job title get changed, and you're out, and even though everything about you and your work and productivity is perfect or at least adequate if not actually above average, everything you do or have done, all value that you have built into an enterprise, all employee virtues and efficiency, all of that does not matter. You can be legally fired for no apparent reason whatsoever . . . but the actual reason can be things like: someone's friend's niece's daughter needs your job, or you expressed a religious view that someone didn't like on break or at a party or something, or didn't smile right at a certain type of compliment, or the employer suspects you of union sympathies, or . . . . anything. Barring a legal case for some type of discrimination or sexual harassment, you are employed 100% at the employer's will and they can fire you for anything or nothing, no matter what.
Personally, I have been thinking about the logical contradictions inherent in the concept of "at will", but I'm not a lawyer, so I ought to go read up a bit.
Response to patrice (Reply #9)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:58 PM
1983law (213 posts)
11. It works the other way too.
As an employee, you can freely quit your employer for any reason and without any notice. That's the flip side of that coin. If you are looking at unions as a way to create a contractual arrangement between and employer/employee, then that will end run "at will" but open up a whole other can.
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:51 PM
nick of time (651 posts)
3. So how do we turn this trend around?
I was a union member my whole working life, retired now, but being in a union afforded me a good living wage, good working conditions, good bennies, and a comfortable retirement.
We need to somehow convey the benefits of union membership loud and proud.
Response to nick of time (Reply #3)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 04:20 PM
CountAllVotes (15,656 posts)
5. You can continue to pay dues in retirement
That is what I choose to do. I know who butters my bread.
Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #5)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
nick of time (651 posts)
10. Already doing so.
But thanks for the info for those that don't know that.
Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #5)
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:07 PM
alterfurz (1,738 posts)
20. me, too!
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 01:52 PM
DaveJ (5,020 posts)
4. We need to figure out how to bring union benefits to regular jobs
Seeing as how 90% of people aren't in unions (and some union jobs aren't that great either), we need to focus on non union employment issues more than ever.
Response to DaveJ (Reply #4)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:10 PM
Squinch (19,537 posts)
6. Think of what you wrote there. Now. Don't you think the answer is unionizing non-union employment?
That is the only way to bring union benefits to non-union jobs.
Response to Squinch (Reply #6)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:36 PM
DaveJ (5,020 posts)
13. I don't see why we can't do both
Are we supposed to live in a world where only union workers get to retire? A decent retirement/pension is worth well over $1 million probably more like $2+ million. Union workers are approaching 1% status.
Non union workers deserve just as much chance at a full life. This could be done be making SS more livable. Encouraging the creation of good jobs, and discouraging bad jobs, which the current Democrats seem to be fully pursuing. Whereas Republicans think a minimum wage job is as good as any. We can't return to that frame of thought.
I don't care what color your collar is white blue or orange or if you belong to a union or an internet chatroom. There should be dignity in life for everyone.
Response to DaveJ (Reply #13)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:46 PM
Squinch (19,537 posts)
14. The purpose of a union is to get those things for the employees. The unions
arose because individuals are not in a position to negotiate with the employers to get those things. So if you want to get those things, you need a union.
It isn't a matter of deserving. Of course everyone deserves it. It is a matter of how it is possible to get it. If the employers have all the control over the rules of employment, it doesn't matter how deserving you are, you aren't going to get what you are asking for.
Unions are the mechanism to get what you are asking for.
You say you don't see why we can't do both. Without unions, how do employees get an equal voice in the rules of employment? (Not a rhetorical quesion. Seriously, what else do you think would do it? I don't see any alternatives that would work.)
Response to Squinch (Reply #14)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:58 PM
DaveJ (5,020 posts)
16. I think we're heading in the right direction already
We want to get to a point where nobody needs to worry, and nobody is seen as better than anyone else due to their status. Fact is that everyone can't be in a union. Most people do not even keep the same careers for more than a few years. Obama mentioned that social safety nets encourage risk and innovation, an environment where people are not frightened to step out of line.
I don't think we need to live in a world where people are expected to follow a prescribed path in order to retire, which unions often have. If that's what someone wants, that's fine. Most careers, though, do not even have a prescribed path.
If we continue to pursue innovation and vote Democratic I think things will work out. Personally I think that technology is at a point where most people should not even need to work, and most jobs are unessential and unnecessary.
Response to DaveJ (Reply #16)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:06 PM
Squinch (19,537 posts)
17. There has never been a time in history where nobody was seen as better because of their status.
Don't get me wrong, I think it is a lovely idea. I just feel certain it won't happen.
But don't listen to me. I thought phones with cameras were just a dopey idea!
I am lucky enough to have a career where I can advance and move around but still have the benefit of a union, so I don't think I considered the lack of mobility that is percieved with unions. I do think that if unions were more widespread, that would be less of an issue. For example, the construction unions are independent of the employers. It gives the employees more of a protected free agent kind of status.
Response to DaveJ (Reply #4)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:22 PM
1983law (213 posts)
7. That's a great way to look at it.
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:59 PM
stultusporcos (327 posts)
12. America has forgotten its history along with over 30 years of
non-stop anti -union propaganda on TV and radio.
It is going to take people working in conditions similar to what they were like before unions before America figures it out.
It will also take solidarity and that is in very short supply. I have seen a number of discussions about cars here and it is appalling the number of people here who buy non-union made cars. It is the second biggest one makes in their life and multiple times too during ones lifetime and a very easy way to help out union workers.
If you say you are a Democrat, show it and vote with your wallet anything less and you are a nothing but a poser in my book.
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:56 PM
Bigmack (8,020 posts)
15. The young... and not so young...
... are going to have to do the whole Labor thing all over again.
Strikes, slowdowns, confrontations with the goons...
The whole bit.
There is no other choice.
Response to Bigmack (Reply #15)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:13 PM
antigop (12,778 posts)
18. Yep..the labor movement .....all over again. nt
Response to Bigmack (Reply #15)
Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:21 PM
Squinch (19,537 posts)
19. And it's tragic that we didn't learn the lesson the last time. Or the time before that. Or......nt
Response to Redfairen (Original post)
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 01:11 PM
question everything (31,161 posts)
21. The business world has changed
It makes sense when you have a large corporation like Ford, or even IBM, that employes many people many with similar skills.
But we've moved to smaller businesses , many owned that are not incorporated, that employ fewer people each with individual skills.
They don't have much in common and their compensations cannot be compared for them to offer a united front.


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Within the more than $400 billion-a-year restaurant industry, the relatively young fast casual segment -- think Panera , Chipotle and Smashburger -- has become a star player, far outpacing the growth of all other dining categories.
Hoping to sustain that meteoric growth and find ways to build even more momentum, more than 130 fast casual chief executives will gather in San Diego starting on Sunday to exchange ideas and learn from their peers about everything from social media marketing and loyalty programs to guarding against food-borne illnesses.
Hosted by the online magazine, fastcasual.com , the 2-1/2-day summit at the U.S. Grant hotel will bring together executives from such fast casual powerhouses as Firehouse Subs, San Diego-based Burger Lounge, Boudin Bakeries and Sbarro.
"We're the number one read magazine for the industry so it's just an easy transition for us to have this summit, and this is such a growing industry," said editor Cherryh Butler. "Fast casual has only been around for 20 years and already is doing $40 billion in sales a year. Others are trying to copy the model, like quick service restaurants. Taco Bell, for example, just came out with their cantina line, which is very similar to what Chipotle does."
Known for its more healthful fare and inviting decor, as well as slightly higher-priced menu items than fast food outlets, fast casual has seen traffic soar an average 6 percent over the last three years, compared to a 1 percent decline for all restaurants, according to The NPD Group, which conducts market research in the restaurant industry.
"One reason for the growth is the economy we're in, and people are looking for greater values in their purchases, from food to clothing to insurance," said Denise Lee Yohn, a San Diego-based brand strategy consultant who will be speaking at the conference. "While fast casual restaurants tend to be priced higher than fast food they're often perceived to be a better value because of the quality of the food and the experience.
"You're also seeing the sophistication of people's palates, with people wanting to experiment with new foods and ethnic foods. One of the questions is whether fast casual is setting the pace for everyone else now, raising expectations such that people won't be satisfied with run-of-the-mill fast food anymore."
Dean Loring, a co-founder of the fast-growing Burger Lounge, agrees that Americans are much more focused on the quality and variety of food they consume than in years past, which has helped fuel the growth of the more innovative fast casual dining spots.
"Chipotle, for example, has done a brilliant job promoting their messaging related to sustainable practices and trying to buy local," said Loring, who will be part of a panel of chief executives speaking to attendees about what has contributed to their success and the overall growth of the segment. There are currently half a dozen Burger Lounge eateries in the county, with a seventh planned for early next year in the Del Mar area. Known for its grass-fed burgers, the chain also has been expanding to Los Angeles.
"Our mantra is that this is as much about the guest experience as it is anything else," said Loring. "We also try to create products that guests feel good about eating. When you go into In 'N Out and have a double double and a fries and a milk shake, you don't feel that good bout eating it. I did it the other day and overdid it."
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subset: commoncrawl


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THE BAR at Potterne Cricket Club was in desperate need of a re-stock after the villagers' stunning victory over eight-time West of England Premier League champions Bath on Sunday.
Potterne, who are competing in the Premier Two Division for the first time in their history, claimed the scalp of the reigning Premier One winners with a memorable seven-wicket triumph in the regional quarter-finals of the ECB National Club Championship.
Chairman Fred Kerley was blown away by his team's sublime victory, admitting he was as shocked as anyone to see Potterne prevail at the Grove.
"Now that we're a Premier side, we decided to enter the club championship this year for a bit of experience and we got a walkover in the first round because Frome couldn't raise a side,'' said Kerley.
"When we found out we had to play Bath, we thought that would be the end of it, but the performance on Sunday was amazing. It's a fairytale.
"I was cheering every run and every wicket that we took. Bath are probably one of the top ten sides in the country at Premier League level and I remember back when we would be delighted about beating Devizes, Swindon or Trowbridge.
"They were really gracious and wished us the best of luck in the next round.
"I know that a lot of people at the club consider the win over Lechlade that got us promoted last year to be our biggest-ever win but I'm happy to be shot down in flames and say that this was right up there.
"We had great support , the bar was drunk dry – there wasn't a single beer left at the end of the day."
Luke De Souza (71) and Ed Young (55) eased Potterne to 155-3 in little more than 27 overs after Dylan Higgins (3-16) and Josh De Souza (2-28) had helped dismiss Bath for 153 in the 44th over.
The hosts were also without captain Neil Clark, who was busy helping Wiltshire earn a third straight Unicorns Knockout Trophy win with fellow Potterne man Jake Roberts.
"I rang Fred as soon as we were finished at our game down in Dorset and he told me that we'd won – it's unbelievable," said skipper Clark.
"Without being big-headed, they were without me, Jake and our overseas player Sahan (Wijerathne), so that shows just how good a performance it was. Jake and I rushed back as quickly as we could to join in with the celebrations."
Potterne travel to Premier One Frocester in the group nine semi-final on Sunday, June 1.
FOR MORE SPORTS NEWS, REPORTS & PICTURES SEE THURSDAY'S GAZETTE & HERALD AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER @gazsport


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Hazen Foss: Forerunner to Ellen G. White
By Robert K. Sanders
Hazen Foss (1819-1893)
What was the source of the statement, "the vision taken from Foss and given to the weakest of the weak" meaning Ellen G. White (EGW)?
I remember hearing church leaders say during my 37 years as an Adventist, that Hazen Foss' visions were taken from him because he would not relate them and given to the "weakest of the weak" meaning Ellen G. White. Stories such as these were told to inspire belief, that Ellen White was indeed God's spokesperson. Was this the truth or was it an Adventist fable?
Adventist historians tell us that, Hazen Foss a Millerite visionary, was indirectly related to EGW. Foss' brother was married to Ellen G. White's older sister Mary. It is said by Adventists that William Foy passed his visions to Foss who in turn passed them on to Ellen White. We have no proof that this was the case. Unlike Foy, Foss never published his visions and we have no record of what they were about—if indeed he had visions.
According to the SDA Commentary Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pp. 474, 474 we are told this about Hazen Foss, "A young man who experienced visions in the Autumn of 1844. There is no published record of Foss' vision or that he experienced visions in the autumn of 1844.
Ellen White gives the only source of her relationship with Hazen Foss in a letter she wrote to her sister, Mary Foss, December 22, 1890.
When Ellen wrote this letter to her sister Mary, Ellen was 63 years old and this was 46 years from the time of the event she wrote about. How well Ellen remembered the event is questionable as well as the truthfulness of which she wrote. As you read the letter you will see that Ellen was continuing to prompt sister Mary on what supposedly transpired 46 years before. In a court of law this would be called leading the witness and would not be allowed as evidence. Ellen says to Mary, "you were at the meeting were you not? Your memory is so good." Ellen's memory was not good enough to remember if Mary was at the meeting, but we are to believe her memory was good enough to accurately report what Hazen Foss was supposed to have said.
Loughborough wrote Ellen for information to validate her claims of being God's mouthpiece, and to support her prophetic office. Ellen then wrote to her sister to get help to support her failing memory. There is no record that Mary Foss ever answered this letter to corroborate Ellen's claims. Read Ellen's letter carefully, as it is the only information on record that describes her personal relationship with Foss and his visions.
Ellen writes to her Sister about Hazen Foss
- Washington, D.C.
- December 22, 1890
- Dear Sister Mary Foss:
I wrote to you a few days ago, and now another matter comes up. Elder Loughborough is writing me, asking if I know of any one now alive who was present at the meeting I have mentioned held at MacGuire's Hill, where I related the first visions I had.
You know Hazen Foss had visions once. He was firm in the faith that Christ would come in 1844. He interpreted the visions given him in harmony with his belief that time would close in 1844. After the time passed, he was told by the Lord to relate the visions to others. But he was too proud spirited to do this. He had a severe conflict, and then decided he would not relate the visions. The people had assembled to hear him, but he refused.
The first vision given to me while in Portland, Maine, was right after this decision. I had three visions, and was then bidden to relate these to others. At this time your husband, Mr. Foss, came to our house in Portland in a sleigh, and said that Mary was anxious that Ellen should visit her.
I thought that this was an opening from the Lord. I was in feeble health; my lungs were diseased; I was spitting blood. But I decided to go with your husband. As I could not bear the cold air, I sat in the bottom of the sleigh, with the buffalo robe over my head.
I had not spoken in a loud voice for some time. After I arrived at Poland, you said that there was to be a meeting at MacGuire's Hill, and asked me to go.
I went with you and your husband. There, that night, I stood upon my feet to relate the testimony given me of God. For above five minutes I labored to speak, and then everything broke away, and my voice was as clear as a bell, I talked for about two hours. I knew nothing of the experience Hazen Foss had been passing through. In this meeting the power of the Lord came upon me and upon the people.
The next day I had related to me the exercises of Hazen Foss. I was told by one, in the presence of a room full, that they had urged Hazen Foss to tell them the things which the Lord had shown him. He had been greatly disappointed that the Lord did not come in '44. He said that he had been deceived, and he refused to obey the promptings of the Spirit of God. After having plainly declared that he would not go from place to place and relate the visions God had given him, very strange feelings came to him, and a voice said, 'You have grieved away the Spirit of the Lord.'
He was horrified at his stubbornness and rebellion, and told the Lord that he would relate the vision. The Lord had told him that if he refused, He would give the light to someone else, and when he attempted to relate the vision, his mind could not grasp it. He tried and tried to relate it, but he said, 'It is gone from me; I can say nothing, and the Spirit of the Lord has left me.' Those who gave a description of that meeting said it was the most terrible meeting they were ever in.
The next morning, I met Hazen Foss. Said he, 'Ellen, I want to speak with you. The Lord gave me a message to bear to His people, and I refused after being told the consequences. I was proud; I was unreconciled to the disappointment. I murmured against God, and wished myself dead. Then I felt a strange feeling come over me. I shall be henceforth as one dead to spiritual things. I heard you talk last night. I believe the visions are taken from me, and given to you. Do not refuse to obey God, for it will be at the peril of your soul. I am a lost man. You are chosen of God; be faithful in doing your work, and the crown I might have had, you will receive.'
He looked as I never saw him look before, so full of despair. Now, Mary, you were at the meeting, were you not? Your memory is so good. Do you have any remembrance of this? If so, state on paper what you do know in regard to it.
I have spoken three times in this place, and will return from here to my home in Battle Creek, having been away three months, laboring constantly from place to place. I speak here four times more, then returning home.
- Will you please answer this? My address is Battle Creek, Michigan.
- (Signed) "ELLEN G. WHITE.
- Please send me Hazen Foss's address.
—E. G. White Letter 37,1890. A Prophet Among You, by T. Housel Jemison, pp. 487- 489, Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1955.
This letter was never published by the White Estate till it was released in it entirety in 1955, in the book, A Prophet Among You. This letter was hidden, for 65 years from 1890-1955, from church members. Probably most Adventist members have never read this letter unless they had access to Jemison's book, which was published primarily for college students. If this letter had been released earlier, the fables of Foss' vision "being taken from him and given to the weakest of the weak" would have exposed the liars that were teaching this to enhance Ellen's prophetic claims.
Adventist historians such as Loughborough and others draw from this letter and fictionalize information about Foss' visions and his relation with EGW. Often stories grow with time and are embellished to uplift the teller in the eyes of those that will listen.
The ORIGIN of the "Weakest of the Weak."
"The visions was repeated the second time, and in addition he was told that if he still refused to relate what had been shown him, the burden would be taken from him, and be given to one of the weakest of the Lord's Children, one who would faithfully relate what God would reveal. Then a third vision was given, and he was told that he was released, and the burden was laid upon one of the weakest of the weak, who would do the Lord's bidding." —Loughborough, The Great Second Advent Movement, p. 182.
Note: If you notice in EGW's letter there is no mention of Foss' vision being given to the "weakest of the weak." Who invented this lie? Loughborough is the culprit who invented this falsehood. This is why many call him "Lying Loughborough."
Arthur White loved Loughborough's myth and included it in his books.
"Again the Lord came near to him in vision; he was instructed that if he refused to bear the message Heaven would have him give to the people, the Lord would reveal it to someone else, placing His Spirit on the weakest of the weak." Ellen G. White: The Early Years, Volume 1827-1862, page 66, paragraph 2.
It was Ellen G. White, that said, "The Lord had told him that if he refused, He would give the light to someone else..." There is nothing in this letter about giving it to the weakest of the weak.
Note: Loughborough's fables are as enduring in Adventism as Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy are to the public. The following Adventist books keep the lie alive, the "weakest of the weak fable as well as the rest of the Loughborough deceptions. You will find Loughborough's Foss myths promoted in the following:
- Emma E. Howell, The Great Advent Movement, pp. 34, 35.
- John L. Loughborough, The Great Second Advent Movement, pp. 182-183.
- James R. Nix, "The Third Prophet Spoke Forth", Adventist Review, p.22.
- Delbert W. Baker, The Unknown Prophet, p. 138.
- SDA Bible Commentary Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pp.473, 474.
Loughborough Adds Three Steps to Foss' Vision!
"About this time there lived in Poland, Maine a young man by the name of Hazen Foss, who firmly believed the Lord would come on the tenth day of the seventh month. He was a man of fine appearance, pleasing address, and quite well educated. A few weeks before the "midnight cry" ended, the Lord came near and gave him a vision, in which he was shown the journey of the advent people to the city of God, with their dangers. Some messages of warning were given to him, which he was to deliver, and he had also a view of the trials and persecution that would consequently follow….He, like Mr. Foy, was shown three steps by which the people of God were to come fully upon the pathway to the holy city. —Loughborough, The Great Second Advent Movement, p. 182.
Note: How did Loughborough know the contents of Foss' first vision? EGW did not describe it in her letter to her sister Mary, and Foss never published any of his visions. Hazen Foss was not shown three steps, but William Foy was shown three steps. Foy never interpreted the three steps that he was shown in his copyrighted visions. Loughborough not only interprets Foy's vision for him with three steps, but he claims that Foss was also shown the three steps and refused to relate this vision. How did Loughborough know all this? EGW does not talk of the "three step vision." Loughborough is again caught in his deceptions and is not a truthful historian. Loughborough also misrepresented Foy's visions and did not get the date of Foy's death correct.
What was Foss' second vision FABLE?
"The vision was repeated the second time, and in addition he was told that if he still refused to relate what had been shown him, the burden would be taken from him, and be given to one of the weakest of the Lord's children, one who would faithfully relate what God would reveal. He again refused." —Loughborough, The Great Second Advent Movement, p. 182.
Note: There is no proof of Foss having the first vision and having it repeated the second time and then told if he refused to relate it, it would be taken from him and given to the weakest of the Lord's children.
What was Foss' third vision FABLE?
"Then a third vision was given, and he was told that he was released, and the burden was laid upon one of the weakest of the weak, who would do the Lord's bidding." Loughborough, The Great Second Advent Movement, p. 182.
Note: Ellen does not corroborate Loughborough's account of Foss having three visions and the term being "laid upon the weakest of the weak." Where did Loughborough get this information? He did not get it from EGW, and Foss left no record of this. There seems to be no end of lies Loughborough told to prop up his prophet.
Was Foss' vision the same as Ellen White's vision?
"The meeting was held in a dwelling-house where he was. He was urged to come into the meeting, but refused to do so. He said the vision was as near like that shown him as two persons would relate the same thing." —Loughborough, The Great Advent Movement, pp. 182-183.
Note: Ellen in her letter to her sister makes no mention of Foss saying that they both had visions that were alike. Where did this myth come from?
Was Foss a Lost Man?
"'From that time he lost his hope in Christ, and went into a state of despair. He never attended an Adventist meeting again, and had no personal interest in religion. His demeanor in many respects, to say the least, has been that of one deprived of the gentile influence of the Spirit of the Master, of one left to his own ways, to be filled with his own doings.' In this condition of mind he died in 1893." —The Great Second Advent Movement, p.183.
Note: Loughborough offers no documentation that Foss was in this state of mind that he lost hope in Christ and had no personal interest in religion. This is another of the many Loughborough fables.
Why Foss refused to relate his Visions.
Ellen in her letter to her sister tells the reason Foss would not relate his vision:
EGW: "He had been greatly disappointed that the Lord did not come in '44. He said that he had been deceived, and he refused to obey the promptings of the Spirit of God. After having plainly declared that he would not go from place to place and relate the visions God had given him,"
Note: Foss would not relate his vision because: Christ did not come in 1844 and that he had been deceived. Ellen said he had visions in harmony with this belief. "He interpreted the visions given him in harmony with his belief that time would close in 1844." Why would Foss want to continue to relate a failed vision, as Christ did not come in 1844? It is no wonder that he believed he had been deceived. The fact is that he was deceived by not following the word of God. Jesus said, no one but God knows the day and hour of Christ's return.
According to Ellen, Foss refused to give his visions and they taken from him and were passed on to her. If this is the case then it is no wonder Ellen also had failed visions and non biblical doctrines. We know God does not give false visions to his prophets.


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Okay, let's say you're a guest at the Wallaby wedding. Cocktail hour (more on that next!) is coming to a close, and the DJ interrupts the scheduled programming (cocktail hour must-play list—duh! 😉 ) to make a brief announcement that dinner is about to start. If you want your mashed potatoes and BBQ, it's time to take a seat.
A table is set up between the cocktail hour space and the dinner tables, and there are clusters of bottled Coca Cola with name tags. You wander over to the table, locate a bottle with your name and table number (and take a swig…c'mon, you know you love it!), and find your table.
(Okay, crazy b'zilla side note…I would have loved for someone to have ditched the cardboard Coke boxes, uncapped the bottles, and stuck a pretty striped paper straw in each bottle. The cardboard boxes take away from any Style Me Pretty professional escort card charm…But the whole day was incredibly busy for everyone, and in spite of it all, I still got a lot of compliments on the Coke bottle idea…So in the end, it really wasn't a big deal. Just sayin'. Some things won't turn out the way you expect on your wedding day, but these small details are not worth sweating over. So here's a zoomed-out photo where you can see the cardboard boxes in all their glory.)
Each table has a little cluster of mismatched vases filled with wild-looking flowers and greens.
The table numbers are marked by DIY cashier's stakes.
Each place setting has a blush-colored dinner napkin, but other than that, the linens are pretty minimalist.
(There was also a favor—organic loose tea in test tubes—at each place setting, but I think these detail photos were taken before Teri set out all the favors.)
At the head of the dance floor is a little sweetheart table set up for the bride and groom.
The sweetheart table is decorated with some piles of old books. (If you don't know me at this point, I. absolutely. love. reading.) Also, there's a glass teapot to symbolize the Persian love for tea.
Off to the side is an old dresser converted into a cake table. (Hi, unashamed lover of all things vintage here.) There's a three-tier bride's cake surrounded by plates of Persian cookies.
Funny thing about the cookies…virtually every second-generation Persian (i.e. girl or guy under 30) I've met despises Persian cookies. They're very strongly flavored with rose water, and since many are made with rice flour, they're a little…sandy. Mr. W and his sibs call them "sand cookies." Nevertheless, they're an absolute staple at Persian weddings. I guess they're like the Jordan almonds of Iran.
And that's a wrap on the detail photos. Let's get back to the action. Someone just finished off not one, but all three signature cocktails. Things are about to get cray.
*All photos by the top-drawer, superb Mustard Seed Photography.
Miss a recap? Previously:
- We got our pro pics in the mail, and I freaked out just a little.
- Orlando and his crew at A Sweet Film whipped up a sweet little teaser from the wedding.
- We p-a-r-t-ied with close friends and fam, Persian style. (We're taking "Gangnam Style" to the next level.)
- We girls got our nails did, while the guys carted all of the wedding stuff off to the venue. Poor boys.
- We survived a hectic rehearsal in the dark.
- The wedding party and our out-of-town guests joined us for a juicy steak rehearsal dinner.
- I wrote my vows, and we battled Houston traffic to get to Oak Tree Manor.
- Following some game-time decisions, we girls sat in the stylist's chair for hair and makeup.
- Mr. W sent up a sentimental note and a sweet little gift, and I got all dressed up.
- Mustard Seed snapped some more photos of us during our couple's portraits and family portraits.
- I shared our ceremony deets, our guests arrived, and my dad and I got a little emotional.
- We walked/sauntered/pranced/cried down the aisle and we were married. Then we made a grand exit. But we soon returned to the ceremony tree to take wedding party photos.
- I shared the details.


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On the first night of the voyage, our heroes slept. The nights that followed would not be so hospitable.
Ciridan's Dream
Ciridan, in one of his brief moments of rest, closes his eyes and thinks about the world he had to abandon to come on this foolish errand. What he sees troubles him, but all is quickly shrugged off as a childish nightmare.
Breena's Dream
Breena giggles to herself, still amused by her bold course of action. As her eyes close, her mind thinks of her past and her future.
Theren's Dream
As Theren's head rests upon the cold metal bars, his eyes close and he begins to dream.


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Get an overview of this hotel4.5-star family-friendly resort near Wailea Beach
Popular property highlights
This family-friendly Wailea resort is located near the beach, within a 15-minute walk of Shops at Wailea and Wailea Beach. Ulua Beach and Mokapu Beach are also within 1 mi (2 km).
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5 restaurants, a full-service spa, and an outdoor pool are available at this resort. Free WiFi in public areas and free self parking are also provided. Additionally, a fitness center, a bar/lounge, and a swim-up bar are onsite.
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All 108 rooms boast deep soaking tubs and offer free WiFi and kitchens. Washers/dryers and 2 bathrooms are standard, as are LCD TVs with cable channels. Weekly housekeeping is available.Information missing or incorrect? Tell us!Opens in a new window
Ho'olei at Grand Wailea
Renovations & Closures
- Swimming pool
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Hotel Amenities
Hotel Amenities
In addition to a full-service spa, Ho'olei at Grand Wailea features an outdoor pool and a sauna. Dining is available at one of the resort's 5 restaurants and guests can grab coffee at the coffee shop/café. Guests can unwind with a drink at one of the resort's bars, which include a swim-up bar and a bar/lounge. Wireless Internet access is complimentary.
Business-related amenities at this 4.5-star property consist of a business center and limo/town car service. Event facilities measuring 100000 square feet (9290 square meters) include conference space. This luxury resort also offers a children's pool, a fitness center, and spa services. Onsite self parking is complimentary.
Ho'olei at Grand Wailea has designated areas for smoking.
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- Family Hotel
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- Washer/dryer
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- Cribs/infant beds (complimentary)
- DVD player
Available in all rooms: Free WiFi
Available in some public areas: Free WiFi
Free self parking
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- Access via exterior corridors
- Lanai
- Air conditioning
- Phone
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- Weekly housekeeping provided
- Deep soaking bathtub
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- Kitchen
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- Separate dining area
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- Microwave
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- Separate bathtub and shower
- Room service (limited hours)
- Connecting/adjoining rooms available
- Free cribs/infant beds
- Rollaway/extra beds (free)
Where to Eat
Ho'olei at Grand Wailea has 5 restaurants on site.
Café Kula - Onsite cafe.
Room service (during limited hours) is available.
Nearby Things to Do
An outdoor pool and a children's pool are on site. Other recreational amenities include a sauna and a fitness center.
The recreational activities listed below are available either on site or nearby; fees may apply.
- Golfing nearby
- Snorkeling nearby
- Surfing/boogie boarding nearby
- Personal motorized watercraft on site
- Kayaking nearby
- Sailing nearby
- Scuba diving nearby
- Windsurfing nearby
- Mountain biking nearby
- Scooter/moped rentals nearby
- Hiking/biking trails nearby
- Bicycle rentals nearby
- Parasailing nearby
Spa Services
The onsite spa has massage/treatment rooms.
If you have requests for specific accessibility needs, please note them at check-out when you book your room.
Hotel Policies
Check-in time ends at midnight
Check-in time starts at 4 PM
Minimum check-in age is 21
Check-out time is 11 AM
Payment types
Children and extra beds
- Children are welcome.
- Free rollaway/extra beds!
- Free cribs (infant beds)!
- Pets not allowed
You need to know
Extra-person charges may apply and vary depending on property policy.
- Deposit: USD 1000 per stay
- Resort fee: USD 40.00 per accommodation, per night
- Shuttle service
- Internet access
- Phone calls
- Additional inclusions
Hotel Name
- Ho'olei
- Ho'olei Grand Wailea
- Ho'olei Hotel
- Ho'olei Grand Wailea Hotel
- Ho'olei Grand Hotel
- Ho'olei Grand
- Ho`Olei At Grand Wailea Hotel Wailea
- Ho'Olei At Grand Wailea Maui
We should mention
The property has connecting/adjoining rooms, which are subject to availability and can be requested by contacting the property using the number on the booking confirmation.


text:
We Love You
Item is available through our marketplace sellers.
Semi Precious Weapons have taken elements from glam, garage, punk, funk, and new wave dance music and infused them with the kind of bright, dangerous energy that's downright infectious. Frontman Justin Tranter, the band's lead singer, has a history of outrageous performances, but even without seeing him stalk around the stage in six-inch stilettos and guttersnipe drag, the music still retains its edgy vibe. The band's blistering attack is evident on every track, but there are a few that really jump out and grab you. "Taste" comes ripping out of the gate with a pounding rhythm and a lyric celebrating oral sex of all kinds. It leaves nothing to the imagination, without dipping into profanity -- a nice trick. "Jesus" opens with crunchy metal/glam power chords, then Tranter describes a young Christian girl who loves to flirt, but "only wants to fuck Jesus." The song is actually shocking, something not easy to achieve in 2008. It's a tune that's bound to outrage anyone who takes religion too seriously. "That's Kunt" is a glam-drenched T. Rex-style rocker about a self-destructive groupie, possibly the first rock tune to ever use the C word (although they spell it with a K) as its hook. Its irresistible rhythm will have you singing along, even though you may hate yourself in the morning. "Her Hair Is on Fire" uses the well-known Parliament/Funkadelic "house is on fi-ya" chant to deliver a hard rocking dance tune; lead guitarist Aaron Lee Tasjan drops a few Eddie Hazel quotes into his icy solo. "Magnetic Baby" is a riff-heavy Buzzcocks-influenced tune that celebrates Tranter's androgynous sex appeal with another killer guitar hook and the band's feverish enthusiasm. "Bleed to Heal" is an exhilarating power ballad that celebrates the outsider's will to live and triumph over adversity, while "Rock 'n' Roll Never Looked So Beautiful" is another strutting celebration of the kind of excess that used to be de rigueur for rockers and their followers as well. All the tunes are peppered with the F word and an in-yer-face attitude, but at their core, Semi Precious Weapons are a pop band, and will sound great blasting out of car radios or headphones. They were voted New York's number one band in the 2007 Village Voice Reader's Poll. It will be interesting to see what the kids of Middle America make of them.
Product Details
|Release Date:
|Razor & Tie
Album Credits
Performance CreditsSemi Precious Weapons Primary Artist
Justin Tranter Vocals
Dan Crean Drums
Aaron Lee Tasjan Guitar,Background Vocals
Technical CreditsMark Needham Remixing
Tony Visconti Executive Producer
Art Smith Drum Technician
Mario J. McNulty Producer,Engineer,Audio Production
Semi Precious Weapons Audio Production
Customer Reviews
Average Review


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Sat 5th Jan 2013 9:00amRapturecamps's Padang Padang Surf Report
Small waves and windy on the bukit this morning. Padang Padang Right is knee high 1ft with a light to medium on shore wind approximately 8 - 12 knots. Wind is blowing the surf pretty much flat. Water is dirty after a full night of rain. Padang Left is flat.
View the Padang Padang Surf Report and Forecast. Rapturecamps's Reports have received a total of 157264 views.
This report has received 251 views since 5/1/13.


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Shenyang (Shényáng, 沈阳), the capital of China's northeastern Liaoning Province, is as famous in the 21st century for its overly aggressive drivers as it was in the 17th century for its overly aggressive Manchu cavalry. At that time it was known as "Mukden" and was the capital of a Manchu state that first broke away from Ming Dynasty China, then conquered it, taking Beijing in 1644 and establishing China's last imperial dynasty, the Qing.
Today, historical Shenyang is largely lost beneath the familiar organized chaos of China's post-Mao economic boom times. Still, the patient and persistent traveler will be rewarded. Amidst the flyovers and highways, office towers and neon signs, smog and famously awful Shenyang traffic, remnants of Manchu glory remain.
First among Shenyang attractions is the Shenyang Imperial Palace (Mukden Palace). Begun in 1625 by Nurhaci, the founder of the Manchu state, the palace combines elements of the Forbidden City with Manchu, Mongolian and Tibetan flourishes. Guaranteed never to be as crowded as Beijing's famed imperial palace, Shenyang's is almost as impressive.
Manchu enthusiasts and casual visitors alike will also find the Manchu Tombs, a UNESCO World Heritage site, worth a visit. The North Tomb, situated in pleasant Beiling Park (Běilíng Gōngyuán, 北陵公园), is the final resting place of Nurhaci's son Huang Taiji; his father's body lies in the East Tomb in wooded Dongling Park (Dōnglíng Gōngyuán, 东陵公园).
Pre-Manchu history is well preserved in the Liaoning Provincial Museum (Liáoníng Shěng Bówùguǎn, 辽宁省博物馆); ancient buildings are few, but the venerable 13-story Pagoda of Buddhist Ashes (Shèlì Tǎ, 舍利塔), not far from the North Tomb, impresses both outside and inside (be sure to gain entrance for a viewing of a rather racy pair of entwined Buddhas).
For a taste of the unusual, go to the Strange Slope (Guài Pō, 怪坡). Like the Strange Slope in Xiamen, this is a seemingly gravity-defying hill where parked cars are reportedly drawn uphill by forces unknown, while finding descent a challenge.
Aside from hopping in a taxi, the easiest way to navigate the city for non-Chinese speakers is the two line Shenyang Metro running north-south and east-west and hitting a number of the key tourist destinations. City buses can be caught at both the North Train Station (Shěnyáng Běizhàn, 沈阳北站) and Shenyang (South) Train Station (Shěnyáng Huǒchēzhàn, 沈阳火车站). Bus No. 203 runs between the two.
Liaoning guide | Shenyang attractions
Shenyang flights | Shenyang hotels
Shenyang on the China Travel Blog
The Zhao Mausoleum (Zhāo Líng, 昭陵) or North Tomb is situated amongst the expansive greens and lakes of Beiling Park (Běilíng Gōngyuán, 北陵公园), near the..
The Fu Mausoleum (Fú Líng, 福陵) or East Tomb is the final resting place of Nurhaci, the great Manchu leader and founder of the Qing state, and his wife, Empress..
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OMG...childcare mentally damages children!!(96 Posts)
Just found this site, ok it is actively encouraging stay at home mums but it has complied a list of scientific evidence from many different areas to back their claims up.
Site here: http://ftmuk.wordpress.com/childcare-research/
The research offered up states that:
Nursery children arrive at school with bad attitude
High working hours lead to family breakdown
Children under three are clearly better off being cared for by their mothers.
Daycare increases maternal employment but not family income
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems.
Mothers going back to work early leads to slower emotional development in their children
Children in daycare from infancy are less compliant, more aggressive and more likely to have behavioural problems.
Away from mothers care between 1-5 increase chances of problems later in life
and more!!!
Its such a scary read but so much of my instinct tells me it is true.
Thoughts anyone?
40% of children who go to nursery for more than 6.2 hours will dye their hair without their parents consent when they reach teenage years.
As I understand it, early years childcare is incredibly common in many Scandanavian countries. Their societies seem to be doing pretty well.
I'm a sahm but my mum put me into childminders care then nursery then school then after school clubs, summer clubs etc etc.
The childminder - She once arrived an hour early to pick up my brother and I and found my brother in his buggy, shoes and jacket on, sleeping - Over 1 hour before pick up time!
Everything else - as a shy child I always hid behind my mum, clinged onto her even around family events... up until I was around 13! lol
I hated school - both primary and secondary - I experienced a bit of bullying, I was left out alot, found it hard to make friends etc
After school clubs - the women working there told my mother on countless occassions that it was obvious I didn't enjoy being there! Eventually she took us out of it and allowed us to walk down the road from school to grandmas house.
Whilst at secondary school sometimes we would come home to empty house, I started truanting and would be scared to go home in case mum was home early...
My daughter is 3, I have left her in the care of others only a few times in her entire life for an hour or two - with her grandparents always, as I don't trust anyone else!
I am really dreading sending her to nursery but I am being pressured into it by everyone.
I had an idea to homeschool her as I am religious and I don't feel there are any suitable schools nearby, the ones that are close to being suitable are fee paying schools.. However I mention the idea and was completely laughed at by everyone.
I feel like there is ALOT of pressure to do things the done way - fobbing children off on others, whereas I want to be there for my children where no one was there for me..
I think it's all very personal decisions to make everyone will do things differently we all had different experiences etc..
The children of working parents do better. Most recent studies prove this. Housewives damage children. Get back to work. We need many more women in positions of power. It is bad for everyone if you stay home.
<pops head back in to see if the arguments still raging>
Friday night entertainment!!
This isn't an ethical dilemma, fatarse.
If you wanted a debate you should have osoted some decent links rather than to a site with an agenda.
What a load of shite.
Mine has been going since she was too and is mad as a bag of ferrets
My son has been going to nursery since he was just over 1 year old & a happier, more confident, sociable little boy you couldn't find (except at the moment when he's tantrumming!) it's just another dig to get mothers to feel crap about their parenting choices....seems whatever you do is wrong.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I am still eager for the op to come back and explain to me how this top flight research has definitively shown that children under three are always better off with their mothers.
There are lots of local authorities with massive holes in their budgets who will no doubt be overjoyed to learn they can now drop most of their very expensive care proceedings.
My children have never been to day care or nursery, I loathe them, but I made my choices and I am delighted with them. They all went to an amazing pre school from 2ish. I don't really care what anyone else does.
btw, I have interviewed MNers for articles - I identified myself as a journalist, explained what the feature would be and asked politely.
It's rather tiresome, the way some posters shout 'journalist' at anyone who makes a daft comment, or starts a daft thread. I am a journalist, as are many people who are on this site because we are mothers and enjoy a natter as much as anyone else. In the early days every other poster was a hack - probably has something to do with the founders being in the same line of work.
I really can't see what purpose this thread would serve for a news story or feature. Most journalists are reasonably bright. If you were thick as two short planks, you wouldn't be able to work out what was going on or what the story was. Some journalists can be manipulative but ffs, stupid threads are NOT commonly the work of journalists, no more than they are the work of accountants or insurance brokers.
do you know what I am sure this has been done to death over the years. OP makes it sound revolutionary. Stop trying to cause an argument.
Ok op, riddle me this.
When my daughter went to school in Brixton, a Kids Company mini bus stopped off most afternoons to take six of her classmates off to activities. These weren't the children in care. These were the children living with their mums (who were probably very close to being taken into care).
You cannot simply blithely state that every child under three is better off with their mother. Motherhood comes in many different styles and shapes. Children need good, consistent, safe care. For at least half my daughters class mates, sadly they were NOT getting that from their mothers.
Sounds like a pile of bobbins to me.
The answers are not on the site and you still haven't answered why you repeat your argument
Its a load of old bollocks, my children went to nursery 3 days a week, and my eldest is gifted and talented in literacy, the sweetest gentlest boy, no aggression at all, funny, kind, thoughtful and a general superstar. He loved nursery and the staff loved him. It was great. OP it's a load of crap and I will assume you are a journalist looking for a story. If you were a mother who had to go back to work or shock horror, wanted to go back to work to reclain a little bit of you, or return to a professional job you had worked and studied a long time for, or just to pay the bills you would not be on MN with this crap. HTH!
How come, out of my 3 older children, the only outright aggressive one is the child who had the least proff childcare?
There are references with other conclusions to look at, if you're truly open-minded:
"...pre-school can play an important part in combating social exclusion and promoting inclusion by offering disadvantaged children, in particular, a better start to primary school."
"High quality child care appears to provide a small boost to academic performance, perhaps by fostering the early acquisition of school readiness skills."
High quality Preschools result in higher achievement at school.
"...child care is not a substitute for home care, but rather provides children with experiences in a different setting".
ivy...I suggest you go to the site and take some time to read the research articles...it is obvious that you haven't.
Sorry, OP, maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the ethics of deciding whether to use childcare or not. There are lots of other considerations (personal, financial, societal...) and there may be ethical issues (nurseries paying minimum wage to workers in central London, for example) but the decision on whether one parent stays at home rather than work doesn't raise any ethical concerns for me.
Everyone has different "common sense" about this issue!
Just because it says "research" does not mean it is reliable or that the findings are universally true. I find it baffling that people take what has been found in some "research" as gospel.
Whatever happened to common sense?
Well, it is a valid question and no reason why it cannot be debated. To pretend all childcare options are automatically equal or to assume that childcare is never a compromise between a child's needs and their parents needs is ridiculous. People should be allowed to research it and come to informed opinions. Of course, the problem is that it is close to impossible to exclude other variables from this kind of research.
My own instinct is that child care factories (and some of the nurseries that I have seen are close to this) are not good for young children. However, I cannot see how it could matter whether a child was at home with its mother, father, grandparent, nanny or even a caring childminder without too many mindees. I can say that our 2.10 year old is even now tired after his 3 hours of pre school nursery and needs to come home and relax with his family for at least a while.
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