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puppies - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkSecond sentence should be used not uses. Reply
brucek2 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAnandTech, where user comments go much, much further. What a treat to get such a thorough reply to a few readers questions, and barely 24 hours later.
My only quibble might be that I believe all these performance numbers are at stock speeds? A high end desktop could probably get another 10-30% from OC'ing, while a high end laptop would probably get either no or significantly less boost due to less cooling capacity (and less support from the BIOS, mobo, etc.)
Even so I don't think that really changes the overall picture. I was surprised to see the single threaded performance range being so narrow (only ~2x), and agree that for most use cases, most of the time, even the bottom end is going to be fine. The much greater 6x+ range on the multi-threaded / gaming side is of course the big factor for those that need it. And its great to see a trusted source call out (even if gingerly) the practice of using the same price and same name for a mobile GTX 780 that is barely in the same league as the desktop counterpart, even at stock speeds.
I also couldn't agree more on the SSD comments. Especially on budget laptops where the target audience is not likely to ask any questions about the storage subsystem, there is a real likelihood of getting the slowest possible hard drive, which can end up making bottlenecks even out of situations where SSD users long ago forgot that storage was even a factor. A situation usually made worse by the likely ton of bloatware that will consume the limited hdd bandwidth by loading and updating itself, downloading ads, etc. I remember my first high end gaming laptop, I thought the cpu was defective or being improperly throttled until I finally realized that yes the 2.5" 5400 rpm hd was really that bad and causing that much trouble.
Anyway thanks for a great article, I know I'll be directing some shoppers to it over the coming months and I hope its helpful for other folks as well. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkMost high performance gaming laptops allow OC'ing for both CPU and GPU, and some are even factory overclocked. Also now pretty much ALL laptops (except for some fruit-labeled ones) has one or two empty mSATA slots for easy SSD upgrade. Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkMy experience with overclocking notebooks is that, at best, you might get an extra 2 bins of CPU performance on the high-end CPUs before you run into thermal limits and the CPU starts to throttle. I saw this with the Mythlogic (Clevo P157SM), where the 4700MQ was able to run at max OC (2 bins) without any issues, but the 6 bin overclocking headroom of the 4900MQ basically didn't do much for performance. Desktops can definitely overclock more, and that's another factor for some, but on mobile systems I think the benefits of overclocking are usually outweighed by the increased heat/noise. Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAs for Bruce2K, I read your comment and thought, "Yeah, I could probably do that for the readers and it should prove interesting." Thanks for the idea! Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI heard haswell and new 780M is worse than previous-gen ones in terms OC'ing. Some people claim they OC'ed their 680M to the same performance as 780M. So OC is definitely possible and can be effective on some laptops. That said, personally I never do OC'ing myself. Reply
WarrenSmith - Saturday, September 14, 2013 - linkLove my job, since I've been bringing in $5600… I sit at home, music playing while I work in front of my new iMac that I got now that I'm making it online( Click on menu Home)
http://goo.gl/OHUOdW Reply
brucek2 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI know the basic controls are often there, but can you really get the same results out of them at acceptable stability, noise, and chassis heat (ie where you place your hands) and without triggering throttling? That's great news if you can. Reply
Watwatwat - Thursday, October 10, 2013 - linkYep but the thermal issues in a laptop just can't be avoided, theres no getting around having a tiny heatsink and basically almost no fan. Also overclocking on a gaming laptop is a great way to turn 2 hours of battery life into 1;) Last I checked overlocking doesn't result in linear increase in power consumption. Reply
WinterCharm - Thursday, September 12, 2013 - linkI did manage a 19% GPU overclock on my laptop... and while performance improved, it'll never be anywhere near what it is on a desktop. Reply
puppies - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkMY laptop is running a 3 year old CPU (I7 740QM) paired with a GT445 GPU. I installed a 120GB SSD shortly after buying it and moved the windows install over to it using the standard 750GB HDD for file storage.
It multi tasks like a champ, the SSD makes such a difference I wouldn't dream of owning a machine without one now. I can have multiple office programs open at once and be browsing 10+ web pages and it still performs better than it did with just a HDD under light usage scenarios.
Gaming isn't an issue as I only play older games on it, if I want to play BF3 etc I fire up my desktop.
I am alwas on the lookout for an excuse to upgrade all my hardware but I just can't justify swapping it for anything newer as it performs everything I ask it to do so well. So for me the "good enough" performance threshold was at least 3 years ago.
anyone reading this who is thinking about buying a new laptop I would seggest you seriously look into getting an SSD and putting a fresh install of windows onto it. The difference is night and day. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkBF3 runs fine on many laptops nowadays, even W230ST which costs only $1069 and weighs less than 2kg.
http://i.imgur.com/MJrqfBJ.jpg9 Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkIf your playing BF3 on a 60Hz monitor you lose. Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkyou're*
My bro had a $2,200 MSI laptop that he was playing BF3 on. Once he seen me playing BF3 on my desktop w/ my BenQ w/ lightboost enabled and rocking out a 120 fps he put his laptop on eBay the very next day. Reply
Garrettino - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkIf you don't know the difference between your and you're, you lose. Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkYou're right you lose. Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkhttp://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Garre...
If that is you. Reply
Garrettino - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkHa! That is me. Reply
Garrettino - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkI'm sorry. I didn't see that you corrected yourself. It was on the second page. Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - linkI have to say I laughed for 5 mins after reading your post Garrettino. At first when I seen that you had posted again, I was like oh great hear it comes. But to my surprise you had made light of my remark, straight up owned the BF3 link(I myself would've been like oh heck No that ain't me) and that is when I just busted out laughing! Don't ask me why but it did make my day for some weird reason. Reply
WiSH2oo0 - Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - linkCheers Garrettino and have a good day! Reply
carage - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkIf the laptop has an ExpressCard slot (hint: business laptops or mobile workstations) or Thunderbolt port you could settle for a high CPU model regardless of whatever GPU comes with the laptop and go the external route. There are some additional costs to this expansion, like you would likely need connectors and/or enclosures that run from $100 ~ $900 (Thunderbolt Enclosure), and the cost of whatever desktop card you want (nVidia recommended due to Optimus Compression technology). Even then there will still be performance penalties, because the external port bandwidth is nowhere near PCI-E 16X. But after these upgrades, a $1500 laptop with a GTX 670/680 can still take on a $3000+ monster gaming laptop. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkSony vaio Z already tried the thunderbolt external GPU idea and it sucked.
1. bandwidth is so limited so it's total waste of GPU power.
2. Thunderbolt enclosures are terribly expensive, and it make more sense to just build another desktop than use them, unless you are forced to (like new mac pro) Reply
mapurisa - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe Vaio Z used a midrange mobile GPU instead of a high performance desktop GPU which completely defeated the purpose.
The technology isn't perfect by any stretch but for a significant portion of the market this would be a good solution but there's no incentives for the AMD/Nvidia to make it happen. Intel being the only non-GPU (in the traditional sense) manufacturer is happy with the current state of affairs ; it can play the same overcharging game for its Iris Pro chips without losing any marketshare or profits.
Meanwhile Thunderbolt withers on the vine and consumers get the shaft. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYes it used midrange mobile GPU, and the performance drop was already like 50%.
With higher performance GPU the performance drop due to bottleneck will get even higher. Reply
digitalgalt - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI use a ViDock loaded with an EVGA 760 Ti tied to my Lenovo T520 (with only Intel HD3000 integrated graphics) and it basically demolishes all games at 1920x1200.
I don't even want to try Crysis 3 on it, that is well past the Express Port choke point. But for a hard metric, I can run Fable 3 and the Witcher 2 at 1920x1200 with all settings to ultra, around 30-35 frames per second. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkIf you can be satisfied at 765M performance (which can run most titles at 1080p with medium settings) actually laptops are cost effective. Also laptops are pretty much a must nowadays especially for university students, so it still is cheaper to have $1800 laptop than $800 ultrabook and $1200 desktop. Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkNot much cheaper tho, and the desktop is easier to upgrade... I think you can easily make an argument for going either way, it ultimately comes down to personal preference and other intangibles... i.e. Are you gonna game while on the go or would you rather have a lighter laptop? Do you even have space for a desktop or would you actually benefit from having two discrete systems? Etc etc. Reply
purerice - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkAgreed with impulses on it not being cheaper. That desktop is more like $1100, but if I had that, why would I need an ultrabook? I completed post-grad with a $1000 desktop and $400 laptop. An ultrabook would have been a tacky fashion statement.
Getting a new CPU/GPU for Anand's reference PC would be $450. To get that same new CPU/GPU in that laptop, you'd need to spend $1800 again. Reply
brucek2 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI think this is my first time seeing the AMD Center branding on an article (I'm guessing because it has an AMD tag?) I've got no objections to the concept, but boy is that red text and red button background unattractive. On my monitor I'm not sure it even matches Radeon red branding (could be by monitor's lack of calibration of course)?
Maybe there's a way AMD could could get some custom vertical elements or something while the site sticks with the standard colors for the main article text and controls? Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYeah, apparently anything tagged AMD gets the branding. Ah well... not my problem! Hahaha Reply
teiglin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI might be torpedoing this workaround by mentioning it, but the print view uses the standard color scheme (and is way better in all other ways as well). Reply
b3nzint - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link"it's far better to have a decent gaming desktop and then to spend another $500-$1000 on a good laptop for when you need to go mobile"
yes right.
pc / laptop, its like comparing boys or girls. they r on diff "world". case closed. Reply
Roland00Address - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkCPU performance does not scale well with power consumption. Architectures are design to hit a desired cpu clock speed and anything above that desired clock speed causes a massive increase of power consumption. The 2nd and 3rd generation core series have massive increase in power consumption to get higher performance at 3 ghz and massively increase in power consumption past 3.5 ghz. I am assuming this holds true to haswell as well. (This is probably why intel keeps the laptop cpu range in <3 ghz range using boost to go past 3.0 and the same logic with desktop cpus of 3.5 ghz using boost to get 3.5 ghz.)
There is a great anandtech forum post i7-3770K vs. i7-2600K: Temperature, Voltage, GHz and Power-Consumption Analysis by Idontcare that demostrates this very nicely in graph format.
You can't scale cpu usage very well by being more parallel for most software can't be made parallel past 4 cores very well (video rendering being an exception.) Thus the only way to increase cpu performance is better architecture with more transistors, or higher clock speed.
Because of this you can get very similar cpu performance in laptops vs desktops.
Graphics on the other hand scales very well increased parallelization. The only limiting factors with graphics is the cost of the silicon, and the thermal constraints. Thus you will always get massively better gpu performance in desktop vs laptops for you are not limited by thermal constraints. It is okay to run that gpu with a desktop at 300 watts while the desired power consumption for a laptop card is either less than 50 watts or 50 to 100 watts for a desktop replacement.
This will probably never change with time. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe whole point here is that nowadays most games run just fine with 50W GPU at 1080p with pretty much everything turned on, as they are supposed to run on 8-year-old consoles as well. So for most people mainstream laptops are approaching the point that they are 'good enough' for gaming. Reply
Roland00Address - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWell that was not communicated very well then considering the choices made for testing (hint almost all of then are in desktop replacement where the gpu by itself takes more than 50W of energy)
750m is about 38 W tdp
760m is about 55 W tdp
765m is about 75 W tdp
770m is about 75 W tdp
780m is about 122 W tdp
Of the games tested the 765m is only above 30 fps in starcraft ii and skyrim (at 1080p) all the other games we need to turn down the settings to get above 30 fps. If you chosen instead a gtx 760 ($250 dollar desktop card) you can get those same games at 60fps in all the games except metro 2033. Tomb Raider would be close for it would be in the mid 50 fps.
You can get an enjoyable "ultimate" performance out of a laptop if you go full desktop replacement such as a alienware 17", clevo, msi, asus rog, etc but as the chart shows you would get much better gpu performance out of a desktop. Remember these laptops would be a desktop replacement and thus weigh over 7 lbs and have a gpu that is using 75+ watt tdp.
You can get "great" performance out of a geforce 760m or 765m but it won't be "ultimate" either the resolution has to go down or the settings (medium or high instead of ultra) has to go down to get current games at a 30+ fps.
In a few years (a die shrink, maybe two) you can get a future gpu to run at 50w and do all these current games on 1080p with these settings at 60fps. Then again during that same time we will get xbox 360 and ps4 console ports for any new game thus you will be needing once again a desktop replacement to get similar performance to the console. You will not be getting a ps4 gaming performance in your ultrabook in the next 3 years. In your larger laptops it will be another matter.
So I repeat my larger point, you can get similar cpu performance easily in a laptop. You can't get similar gpu performance in a laptop vs desktop for with a desktop you are not limited by thermals while with laptops you are trying to keep total thermals (cpu+gpu+screen+everything else) under 65w for normal laptops/ultrabooks, about 100w for things like the razer blade 14" / 15" retina display, 125w to 150w for beginner desktop replacements such as the gtx765m (msi dragon 17") and 200w for alienware 17" with a single gtx780m. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThere is no ceiling for *ultimate* performance, you can spend $3K for tri-titan setup, add liquid cooling to OC them, another a few K for (multiple) 4K displays and so on. 60fps may not be enough for some *ultimate* gamers. I've been playing fps myself for years, and old quake 2 required 100+fps framerate for some techniques (like acceleration jump)
What we're discussing now is *good enough* performance, which I can be achieved by 760M or 765M. 765M is reasonably cheap, can be fit into either 13 inch laptop or 18mm thin laptop, and can run most game. I've been using similarly powerful 6990M GPU for a while. Reply
MDX - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkWell said Reply
Saint04 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkTo the author,
I just wanted to say that I had noticed the comment under the Alienware 17 review about the need for contrasting mobile GPUs from Desktop GPUs. You did just that and in a timely fashion too! I just wanted to say thank you for being responsive to your readers. Reply
jjj - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkOk so no OC in CPU perf,you include a 250$ GPU just to push the price way up and you fully miss the real issue.
The question you have to ask is why? Why are we here?
We pay 300$ for a small die and a large part of it is a GPU we don't use or need.
We can't touch a 6 core CPU at 250mm2 ,it costs too much. not so long ago Intel would have had to sell it at 300$ ,hell they would most likely have 8 core dies with less cache if there was any damn competition.
Things are not getting better in laptop ,they are just getting much much worse in desktop.and greed is killing the only PC segment that can be exciting. For short term gains Intel is killing the long term.
And even in laptop they are pushing ultrabooks to try to reset performance to a lower level and shorten the refresh cycle while pushing prices up.
All they'll achieve with this is speed up the transition away from Wintel and allow ARM to catch up in perf faster. They couldn't do worse than this if they would hire Elop as CEO.
Why don't you compare die size (excluding GPU) and price over the last decade in desktop instead of doing this article. Reply
jjj - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkand i guess there is a lot more that moved on die besides the GPU so all in all what used to take 250mm2 and cost 300$ takes now 3 times less area but at the same price and if we want more there is nothing we can do, unless we pay like morons. Reply
TEAMSWITCHER - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI get what your all saying, it's infuriating to purchase devices that waste transistors implementing a "worst in class" graphics solution - one that will undoubtedly be replaced. But Intel is the only real looser here. The performance of all their Core desktop processors is so great, I would still buy them at the current prices - without integrated graphics or extra cores.
Finally...don't think Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E processors are all that. The heavily threaded applications that benefit from these CPU's don't go from "waiting" to "not waiting" by adding a couple cores. Reply
kamsar - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI'd love to see a storage comparison between desktops and laptops. I've seen SSDs routinely bench at around 2/3 of the speed of a similar desktop. Desktops just feel faster still. Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkMust be older laptops with a bottleneck at the controller level... Reply
ToToRoTY - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWow, the CPU (and CPU only) performance is not half bad! It's certainly a much better improve than the previous generationS. However, the graphics side seem to be quite behind, especially the cost efficient ratio... I wish the manufacturers like Clevo would put more focus on cooling design (& much much more innovations) than they are doing now. It's not like the tech isn't available, it's just not implemented well enough. Reply
purerice - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkIf you personally are suffering from an externally hot laptop, there are relatively ugly but cheap "laptop coolers" available that plug into USB. If you mean internal cooling, I feel your pain. A month ago I really wanted a Toshiba Qosmio but lots of reviews on their site complain about overheating/breaking down. Reply
jasonelmore - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThanks for the article, i've always wondered how single core ipc compared to desktop in mobile cpus Reply
KaarlisK - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThe thing that bothers me is the dearth of light laptops with 35W TDP CPUs.
An Ivy Bridge dual core at 3.0 GHz (3230m with both cores fully loaded using x264) consumes about 18W. Clearly, there is no way a CPU intensive game is going to be capable of using a ULT/ULV CPUs full potential, as it will simply run into the TDP limit. In the Ivy generation, there was no gain from using ULV CPUs, except for a few pennies and grams saved on cooling; when the laptop weights only 1.5kg anyway, it doesn't matter. With Haswell, ULT CPUs should have extra power savings in idle/in communication with the chipset, which at least may be a reason to want one.
Intel's 28W ULT CPU does seem to acknowledge this, now one just has to hope CPUs like that won't cost too much. Reply
Sancus - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI think this article understates the massive savings that the upgradeability of a desktop provides. Because desktop CPU perf is essentially stagnant, unlike in the past when you were well advised to upgrade CPU and GPU at the same time there is no longer any good reason to do this eben for the extreme enthusiast. You could have been upgrading your sandy bridge machine for the last several GPU revisions and end up spending less than the price of a single generation's performance laptops. This ability to keep up with GPU performance without pointless whole system replacements is a huge deal. Reply
smallmj - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkWith both laptops and desktops being fast enough for non-gaming users, I think the biggest advantage that desktops have is in longevity. I generally tell people that a decent quality laptop (not Acer or HP Pavillion) will last 3-5 years and that a decent quality desktop will last 5-8 years. Also, repairs on a desktop are much cheaper, where repairs on a laptop are often not worthwhile.
So for most of my users, it becomes a choice between longevity of a desktop and the convenience of a laptop. Reply
godrilla - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkDesktop all the way, I love to upgrade my gpu every 2 years my 15 month gtx 690 will be replaced with a Maxwell gpu next year, as far as my 3 year old system it still a beast i7 980 xe at 4.3 ghz and a c300 256 ssd at sata 6! Reply
killerclick - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkGlad to see Anandtech put out this article. I saw that comment a few days ago and thought it was a good idea, and today I see this article.
For me, the main advantage of desktops is the instant repairability/upgradability. If something dies on my computer, I simply can't ship it somewhere and wait for days or weeks to get it back while the techs go over the contents of my hard drive. If a hard drive dies on a laptop, it's not a big deal to replace, but what if the screen or keyboard die? Where can I buy replacement parts and how soon? I have two stores with every kind of PC hardware (even some server components) within walking distance. Unless something breaks down on a Saturday night, I can have my system up and running again within 24 hours (usually less than 2).
There is also the pitiful performance of mobile GPUs, the dust buildup, the cooling noise of tiny fans and the small screens that ruin any kind of immersion in games. Can new laptops connect to multiple external displays?
I can't see myself replacing my desktop with a laptop any time soon (but laptops do make more sense for most people). Reply
coachingjoy - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkWith a desktop I think a 2560x1440 display would be warranted.
It makes a desktop worthwhile.
I mean, why not use a phone/notebook/laptop instead? Reply
Joel Kleppinger - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThis article is forgetting one of the biggest reasons to have a desktop... multiple monitors. With a laptop you are limited to one or maybe 2 external screens, and resolutions above 1920x1080 may not be supported. With a desktop, you can have as many as you want and the resolution can go as high as you want.
As for the system hardware, I just upgraded my PC with 16GB RAM, an ivy bridge mobo + i5 3540 and took the old 80GB SSD out of my laptop (replaced with 250 GB for $150) and made it a boot drive for a grand total of $240.
Now, I have 3 Asus PA248q monitors worth approx $900 which makes the total desktop bill a little higher... but you can't quite compare a 15-17" 1080p display to 3 24" 1920x1200 displays. Reply
DanNeely - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkif you really need a laptop only setup and multiple monitors; newer Dell Lattitudes with discrete GPUs can use both the DGPI and the IGO currently. With the dock I had 3 external monitors and the laptop screen on my 5420 running at once (didn't have a 4th to see if I could run 4 external) Reply
nerd1 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkMost laptop with discrete graphics supports 3 external displays (eyefinity for example) Reply
JlHADJOE - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI never really got the appeal of mobile gaming. You just end up with a big, heavy device that gets hot under use and has crap battery life. I'd much prefer to have a proper gaming desktop, and as light and portable a laptop as I can get by with when I'm mobile. Reply
nunomoreira10 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linksome people like colege students need a laptop but want to do some casual gaming and lan party.
to them a midrange laptop is good enoughf. Reply
Notmyusualid - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI've said this a couple of times now;
Some of us (whom are frequent travelers), simply cannot have a Desktop computer - and I've tried. No matter how well I packed the screen and SFF PC, the screen doesn't travel well (cracked case), and with hand carrying the PC, it has weighed as carry-on, which has a 7kg restriction on some airlines now. It is just not possible to do.
So yes, my M18x R2 is heavy, but I'm a big guy too, so no problem for me. Battery life is wonderful if using the integrated HD4000 GPU, and if in the business lounge, I can always plug in, and change graphics if I need too.
And when you say a 'proper gaming' Desktop, have you any idea how powerful my i7 3920XM is? I upped the CPU voltage a tad yesterday, and gamed at 4.5GHz for a couple of hours without issue.
How is your memory performance? Winsat mem here is = 25357.21 MB/s.
My dual GPUs are a powerhouse too. I hit nearly 11,000 in 3DMark11. Can your PC do that?
Storage is not an issue anymore either, I have dual 240GB Patriot Wildfire SSDs in RAID0, providing a GB/s of storage performance, and also an internal 1TB Seagate 5400rpm for storage. (Yes 3 HDs in a laptop)
Hot? Where? Out the back of the machine? - Who cares? Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkIn terms of performance, that's great... but in terms of price, you're basically willing to pay 3X the cost of a desktop for what you're getting in graphics scores. 11000 in 3DMark11, presumably on the Performance defaults, is something you can get with an overclocked GTX 760, or a single GTX 680 / GTX 770. Your notebook that cost $2500+ at the time of purchase (more with the dual SSDs I'd guess) is basically on par in performance with the $933 gaming desktop I listed.
Which isn't to say that it's a bad notebook. If you need mobility, and you want maximum performance, you do what you have to do. That's sort of the point I was trying to make in the conclusion: do what's right for you. The M18x fits your wants/needs well, but for a lot of other people they would find it a horrible fit. Different strokes and all that.... Reply
nerd1 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkMy main machine is a 17" alienware with 680M, which is comparable to GTX660, and it cost me less than $2K with 16GB ram and 500GB SSD / 1TB HDD. It is not terribly heavy (I carry it with backpack every day), fast enough for my work, and runs most game at 1080p easily.
Similarly powerful desktop will be around $1400 (after adding display, keyboard and SSD), and I will still need a quality laptop with SSD, which won't come below $1000. So I think powerful laptop systems totally make sense for *some* people who are fine with 1080p gaming. Reply
Notmyusualid - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkJarred, amazing if you can get that performance for ~$1k.
But most of us outside the USA pay through the nose for our electronics.
My machine cost, (sourced in the UK) 3k GBP, without fancy SSDs, TB disk, nor memory. Factor in 800 GBP for those and your 3800 GBP machine is $5966.38 - including case but *without taxes*. And VAT (sales tax) here is 17.5%.
Oh how I wish I could have spent that on a Desktop... but as noted, that is not an option for me.
Love the article, and the site - keep up the good work, and try not to cry reading those prices! :) Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkObviously prices have come down since your original purchase on some parts, but yeah -- desktop GTX 760 with a bit of overclocking is going to be pretty close to 780M SLI performance. Some cases it might be a bit slower, but you could always upgrade to a slightly faster GPU for not much more money. Glad I don't have to pay your prices! Reply
JlHADJOE - Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - linkWell I never thought about bringing a desktop along. I figured for most people the setup would be a desktop at home, and a laptop on the road. I suppose you're the exception here.
My desktop is a 4770k and GTX780. I'm not sure if it's faster than your M18x, but I imagine they'd be about even. I have a Macbook Air for when I'm mobile. Reply
LDW - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThank you for an interesting analysis. I would like to suggest another angle for a future analysis....
Constrain the laptops and desktops to use just the on-chip graphics processing made available from Intel and AMD, and pick several games that place lighter loads on the hardware to use to study their performance. These games may be older or may be current games with constrained settings.
The question to be asked by the analysis is "How is the on-chip graphics doing in in the market? How does it compete with the discrete graphics (mobile and static)? Might there come a time in the future where the graphics performance of the on-chip graphics processors be 'good enough'?"
I think the answer to the last is yes, but haven't a clue when that will occur. Thanks again for an interesting analysis.
LDW Reply
jtd871 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI was a bit disappointed to see that mobile IVB was not included as a comparison point, as many mobile owners will have purchased in the past several years.
As has been inidicated by many others, the performance just has to be good enough. My lappie is a iBuyPower CZ-17 (17" 108p, IVB i7, GTX675m) with aftermarket RAM and SSD upgrades. I probably have $1800 in it. The cost is worth the smaller footprint. My kids are using my previous laptop (Lenovo ThinkPad T61 w/Core2Duo & NVS discrete gfx), which cost the same amount 5 years previously.
As a comparison, the performance gained for the same money over 5 years is tremendous. My 'best value' paper build list for a $1500 desktop (including OS) would probably smoke my current laptop, but the laptop is still very nice for 1080p gaming and 1) I didn't have to put it (all) together myself 2) it is portable.
The whole notion of battery life on a gaming laptop is kind of silly. It's basically a glorified UPS (which I appreciate), as I have pretty much never heard of anyone gaming without being on the mains. Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkIvy Bridge wasn't included because, outside of the iGPU and battery life, it's not really all that different from Haswell. In fact, outside of the iGPU and battery life, even Sandy Bridge offers competitive performance to Ivy Bridge.
As for battery life on a gaming notebook being silly, I don't think most people really expect to be able to play a modern AAA title like Battlefield, Call of Duty, etc. and get good battery life, but when you're not gaming there's really no need for battery life to suck.
By my calculations, a 17.3" gaming notebook at idle should be able to draw around 10-13W max, mostly depending on the LCD brightness. Sadly, most are still drawing 20-25W at idle. There's no reason for this other than the manufacturers being too lazy to properly optimize the firmware for power savings. Reply
Termie - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkGreat article, Jarred! Wow, it's amazing to see what those Haswell mobile quad-cores can do!
By the way, you refer to the i7-4500U in the text, but your chart has the i7-4200U. I think the text is correct, and the chart isn't. Reply
nunomoreira10 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkEither cpu perfomance has evolved so much on laptops or evolved so litle on desktops.
intel need some competition and fast
the bright side is i wont be losing much if i get a mainstream quadcore laptop Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThe thing is, for the most part people don't need faster CPUs. If we had CPUs that were 10X as fast, what would we do that we're not already doing? Intel has plenty of competition: ARM is the big one, but Intel is almost competing with their own past success. Until there's software that needs more CPU performance, focusing on other priorities like power and graphics makes more sense.
And for the record, I don't think we need lots of new "innovations" in software that require faster CPUs. Look at Android and iOS; those require basically one fourth the performance of Windows to be plenty fast (outside of some web page rendering), and they deliver tons better battery life. More than anything, I think we're fast approaching the point where monolithic OSes, CPUs, etc. start to become irrelevant.
A few more years and I could do most of what I need to do with an iPad/Android tablet with a good keyboard attachment. I'll still prefer laptops though, because larger displays and keyboards are more comfortable for me to use -- at least, I will until we reach the point where we can actually start connecting our brains directly into our computers. Hahaha.... Reply
BlakKW - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThanks for the article...it was interesting, and results were not entirely what I expected them to be. Reply
Selbatrim - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThis has partially been picked up but I think this article is a bit of old rubbish myself. The laptop in question firstly uses a 5400rpm HDD and does not include an optical drive. Additionally the desktop system is a custom build with plenty of room to shave off cost. Case and PSU easily reduced by $50, motherboard too. I'd say (including dropping the GPU) you would reduce the price of the desktop by about $400 and still have a higher performing device.
And this is still a custom build, not an OEM build.
I've just priced up a laptop vs desktop replacement for our fleet and the desktop (including peripherals) come in at about 60%-75% of the cost of a laptop (depending on portability). Add to that you mostly need to factor in a port replicator for the laptop the desktop wins hands down.
Can you get a reasonably priced laptop these days that will do general computing for less then $1000? Sure. Can the same money buy you a much better desktop? You betcha. Reply
wintermute000 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkYeah around 1/3rd cheaper sounds around right (+ expandability, repair, upgrade path etc.) Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI looked at pre-built OEM PCs and none of them really came in much cheaper than the custom build without serious compromises on some areas. Getting a cheap $25 case and $25 PSU is also a bad idea, so I specifically went against that and included a decent case and a good quality 80 Plus Bronze PSU -- even the OEMs are avoiding crap PSUs these days.
Except... crap, my tables on the desktop are screwed up. There are supposed to be two different builds, one for gaming, one for "standard" use (no GPU). Let me fix that, because the mainstream desktop isn't all that different but costs $200 or so less. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkOkay, fixed the table. Sorry about that -- funny that you're the first to notice. I had the text right (it mentioned the $672 price), but somehow copied the same table into the document from my spreadsheet. Reply
Selbatrim - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI'd not recommend a rubbish psu either but Seasonic is a high end brand. As is the Z87 chipset. If quality and durability is part of your desktop build then you should chose the same in your laptop. A HP Envy is not a high quality laptop. It is pretty much a mid-lower end in terms of build quality.
The issue of the HDD speed comparing a desktop 7200 rpm to a laptop 5400 rpm will also have a major impact on performance (or drop the price on the desktop). But even still, your results point to a laptop of SIMILAR specs being comparable if not competitive with a desktop and this is simply not true.
Asrock H81M-HDS motherboard for $52 (save $63)
COUGAR Solution Black Steel ATX Mid Tower (INC 400W 80+ PSU) $80 (save $24)
No Optical drive (Envy does not have this. Save $18)
Total now of $567 and you still have a better CPU and HDD.
Again, yes, you get better laptops now than you used to and you can easily replace your desktop with a laptop but it will cost more (and you still need extra monitor, keys etc to use it full time or suffer the consequences) Reply
ChuckEX - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI will always browse through and appreciate articles on computer performance, but for me, they will only serve as guides. It amazes me how people fail to take into account "real world performance". Of course, on the bench, the numbers say anything other than the most bleeding edge hardware and you are missing out.
I'm rock'in an extremely humble laptop with an AMD A6 4400m chip. I paid $300 open box for it, removed all the bloatware, maxed out the RAM (from 4GB to 8GB) and got a quality Thermaltake cooling pad. I've played through Skyrim, Tomb Raider (2013), Dishonoured, Bioshock Infinity and tons of other "demanding" games. I'm currently playing Splinter Cell: Blacklist no problem. Granted, my graphics settings are low/medium, however, these games still look and play great.
I guess it's just down to personal preference. If you're gonna chase the numbers, you'll never be satisfied. If you tone it down and have realistic expectations, you can have just as much fun as everyone else. I think computer graphics have reached a plateau. Everyone goes on about how beautiful a game looks on the PS3/XBox 360 to this day - 7 year old technology! And tablet games are looking better and better.
Don't get me wrong. I've had many PC builds and I aspire to get the most bang for my buck. I'm just blown away at what I'm able to do with this humble little laptop.
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI get what you're saying, and certainly turning down details can help, but some of the games you mention I have trouble believing they run well at all on an A6-4400M iGPU (HD 7520G). That's half the performance of the 7660G, which struggles with several of the games on our list (Tomb Raider at Low detail is 48FPS average, so I suppose it might get >30FPS at 1024x768 at Low, Bioshock is a similar story, and even Skyrim is going to be borderline at best -- Notebookcheck shows <30 FPS for Skyrim for instance (http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-7520G.7...
The thing is, while I have no trouble saying "Medium 1366x768" is usually fine for quality -- it's the gameplay, right? -- there are many cases where "Low 1366x768" does not even compare. GRID 2, StarCraft II, Skyrim, and others look really bad at "Low" as opposed to "Medium". You might be okay with those setting, and they're going to be necessary on an A6-4400M, but I would not be happy with the overall experience. Reply
KalTorak - Monday, September 09, 2013 - link"Part of the problem is power requirements, as high-end desktop GPUs can draw up to 300W under load, which is three times what the most powerful mobile GPUs are rated to draw. The form factor also comes into play, but really I think power is the far more limiting factor."
I don't see the distinction you're drawing in that last sentence; isn't it the form factor that determines the power constraints? Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkPerhaps somewhat, but a desktop GPU can suck down 300W (sometimes more for the dual-GPU on a PCB models), and the largest power brick I know of for laptops is rated at 300W. So form factor is part of the issue, yes -- you can only cool so much heat in a notebook -- but without 450W power bricks for notebooks you're never going to touch the performance of a desktop that draws 450W. Reply
nerd1 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkYou can put two chargers in parallel to double the power, which is needed for some exotic laptops. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkNone of the Clevos or Alienwares do this, at least not that I've seen. What "exotic laptops" are you referring to? Reply
nerd1 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkSome Clevo ones with desktop processors. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkAh, I see now that they changed to dual 330W adapters with the P570WM. I didn't realize that, but then I can't say it matters much to me. It's an extremely niche market, and the P375SM is more sensible for almost everyone other than perhaps mobile workstation users that need a 130W hex-core processor. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the dual adapters -- the old Clevo X7200 and P270WM could actually overload the old power brick under load. So, who wants to carry around 22 pounds of notebook? Reply
Dribble - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI own a fast laptop and a fast desktop and have done for years now. The one thing that can't be understated is how much easier it is to fix and upgrade the desktop. Upgrades to laptops basically means SSD's and memory. With a desktop you can upgrade pretty well anything - add graphics, no problem, and more hd's no problem, etc.
Equally fixing laptops is hard work. Some stuff can't be fixed and other stuff is tricky. e.g. I successfully replaced the screen inverter in my last one, but that involved taking the whole thing apart (seemed like about 100 screws) then replacing the inverter then putting it all back together. With a desktop that sort of thing would be a 5 minute job.
Hence I still love my desktop - it o/c's well, is faster, quieter, cheaper, easier to maintain and easier to upgrade. Reply
Jaybus - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkFor many tasks I do not care if I am using a laptop or desktop, as long as I have a real keyboard and mouse and a couple of large monitors. However, I need PCIe slots for ADCs and hardware other than a graphics card, making laptops impossible or at least difficult and expensive to use as my main workstation. If Thunderbird or something similar is someday able to handle the hardware, then I truly won't care.
However, I still want a fixed location workstation in addition to a light laptop. Laptops are too vulnerable to theft and/or destruction while travelling, so I don't want all of my files on the laptop. Just the ones I will need while travelling. Reply
Spunjji - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThanks for this, Jarred. It's really great to see such a comprehensive analysis put together off the back of a user comment - it really does put these price/performance trade-offs in perspective in a way that's useful fr us, the end users. Bravo!
Incidentally, I also feel happier about my own setup after reading this - £800 for a second-hand 2670QM Clevo unit with 16GB RAM and a 7970M was some pretty excellent value. :D Reply
DrJeckyll - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkGood review in general. I think that making a better comparison would be to include peripherals though, to make it a more apples to apples comparison.
I, for one, just bought a true desktop replacement (Eurocom P375SM with an 8970M). For me, being able to game while on the couch is a big bonus and the capability to pick up and go in a heartbeat is nice. In terms of upgrade-ability, it's a clevo so I can change any component easily; and I ended up paying quite a bit less than a regular laptop in this class bringing the gap between desktop gaming even lower.
Another interesting comparison would be to build a mini-ITX system. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThe problem with peripherals is that there's a huge range of quality. If we're building "comparable" to the notebooks, we'd want a basic 1080p TN display, cheap stereo speakers with a subwoofer, any pretty much keyboard and mouse. But realistically, most desktop users will have at least a decent quality 21.5" or 23" display, and many will now opt for a 27" 2560x1440 IPS display for $400-$500. I use 5.1 speakers still, an old set of Logitech speakers I've had for about 10 years now, maybe more? (How's that for longevity?) And for the keyboard and mouse, I'm currently rocking a $250 keyboard with a $65 mouse, but quality on these items is far more important to me than saving pennies. Reply
SirNathan - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkYou mention on the first page that a tablet with a keyboard is around $500, but if you get the Nexus 7, you can get a pretty good third party keyboard for around $30. Of course, then you'd have to do without Windows, so it doesn't work so well for comparisons in this article... Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThere's also the screen size issue. For handheld tablet use, a 7" screen is fine. Sitting on a desk with a keyboard, however, 7" can be painfully small for anyone over 30 or with moderate vision to read. Even 10" tablets may not work for everyone, but at least I can make a good go at it. Reply
rburnham - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkIt really does come down to lifestyle. A buddy of mine is on the go a lot, so he invested in a good Alienware gaming laptop. It's big, it's fast and it can double as a nice workstation too.
On the flip side, I currently do not travel at all, so I have a desktop workstation and desktop gaming PC. However, I plan to move to a new area in the near future, where I will be traveling on the weekends. I will keep the gaming desktop, but the workstation will be replaced with a mid-range gaming laptop, which will double as a 1080p workstation while at home.
I just love that we have these options. It's a great time to be a computer user. Reply
Sadrak85 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThe facts here actually support a slightly different conclusion, although noted to be out of the scope of the article; for "basic" computing needs such as web-browsing, you don't need massive performance, and even those laptops are more than required. Mobile is the answer. Mobile can handle email, web, basic text-editing, some photo, and presentations. Thus, the ideal setup is your own preferred mobile device and a desktop for 1)ergonomics, 2)value, 3)speed, 4)reliability. Forget the laptop entirely! It's the "Utility Van" of the modern era. Niche cases, like hardcore gamers on the go, or someone who needs just enough power on the move to whine about a tablet, but not enough to remote-desktop to a more powerful machine. The only reason there is still a laptop in my home is because it's a relic of my wife's college days, and it's nice to play Minecraft in the same room as her (she gets the 3240x1920 display when we play together because I'm a gentleman). Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI mentioned tablets in the introduction, and for most people that need to type anything I still feel laptops are far superior to tablets. Others will disagree with that, and that's fine, but I have typed a fair amount on my two 10" tablets over the past two years, and I don't like it at all. Adding a keyboard could fix some of the issues, but then I have something larger to carry around and a 13.3" laptop (or 14" laptop) is still going to provide a much better keyboard experience for anyone that doesn't have petite hands. Reply
Sadrak85 - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkYeah, but an ergonomic desktop keyboard is better still; tech journalists who travel need decent laptops because they're writing in hotel rooms, etc., and maybe paperback novelists need the inspiration of writing in a cabin in the woods, but when I update my website, I do it in front of my desktop, in my home office, where a laptop would cramp my style. Reply
max1001 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkGamers are what keep the desktop market alive. You can keep playing games on release date at max setting as long you keep upgrading your GPU now and then. I usually upgrade mine once a year and sell the old one on Ebay. The whole system get a refresh every 3 yrs or so.
Laptop on the other hand are totally different story. My XPS 17 with 650m going to be useless in a year for gaming and it's not even worth selling it back out on ebay. Reply
Sadrak85 - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkDon't forget cheapskates (the only reason I overclock is so I don't have to buy the next model up) and people who own comfortable chairs and ergonomic keyboards. Reply
hoboville - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkOne important factor that cannot be expressed enough with regards to laptops--especially since you mentioned college--laptops get stolen a lot. You'd be hard pressed to find the same to be true with a desktop PC. And if you're a gamer with a $2000 laptop...not fun to contemplate.
I refurbish and repair computers for a living, and people break laptops all the time (can't tell you how many times people have spilled beverages on them). Repairing them is rarely an option, if the customer has cracked the screen or messed up the keyboard and it's not under warranty...their options are very limited.
There's hidden costs to mobility and all-in-one solutions, performance is just one aspect. Besides, when was the last time you dropped your desktop PC accidentally? Reply
vpk24_astro - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkIt'd be really interesting to see how far we are from discarding laptops entirely in favor of tablets. The thermal constraints - the only ones set in stone, should be the only limiting factor in the long run. Fortunately, the thermal envelope that laptops have to run in is very comparable to what tablets have to play with (factor of 2X or so in heat generated). How many generations before we see tablets as powerful as today's laptops? Are there any variants of desktop linux that have been ported to a tablet? Can I plug a keyboard, mouse, HDD and monitor into a tablet all at once? Reply
Selbatrim - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThis is pretty much the same argument. You wonder when a tablet will be better than the CURRENT laptops but by then the laptop has progressed further and you still get more for less.
The question seems to be when will the form factor no longer represent any impact on price or performance? For the mainstream this may perhaps happen in the next 10-15 years, but for the enthusiast it will take so long it is not really possible to contemplate.
Again, I just looked at this in a fleet refresh and the approximate priceratios we came up with was this:
1 tablet(full x64 specs here, not arm etc) for the price of 2 laptops or 4 desktops. Will this ratio change? Perhaps. But if you are looking at value for money the foreseeable future is desktop over laptop over tablet. Reply
lmcd - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkUmm I must say, not that many users have spare monitors, let alone ideal ones. Not sure you can totally count that out, nor keyboards or wireless cards. Reply
gandergray - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkThe back of laptop or notebook lids seems to be an area that is underutilized for heat dissipation. Why not position GPUs behind the screen and engineer the back of the lid and the associated space between the screen for heat dissipation? Yes, the lid would thicken, and some circuitry would be segregated between the main body of the notebook and the lid--all of which would require engineering; but GPUs would then have substantially more available surface area and likely could be accessed and changed more readily. Reply
bklyn - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI would love to see a similarly written article on the difference in speed and productivity in professional imaging programs like Photoshop, illustrator, CAD etc. I built my current workstation a few years back and I am looking to upgrade fairly soon. The idea of a workstation laptop connected to a professional monitor is pretty alluring in light of the space constraints of small NYC apartment living. My current set up is as small as I could make it at the time without compromising much on performance, but it still takes a huge chunk of my living room. My other issue is connectivity with older FireWire peripherals (hasselblad/ imacon scanners etc). I'm not interested in Macs but I have been pretty jealous of some Macbook pro centered set ups I've seen, if only for the mobility and tidiness of it all. Reply
TheCheesePlease - Thursday, September 12, 2013 - linkThe right answer is an thinkpad x220 running an eGPU over expresscard. BEST OF BOTH WORLDS
Desktops would die quickly if this caught on. Reply
versesuvius - Friday, September 13, 2013 - linkTablets will replace laptops. Laptops will not replace desktops. Laptops can never best desktops in terms of speed, reliability, serviceability, ease of use, upgradability and quality. On the other hand tablets can do all that a laptop can do while sticking to the idea of mobility and ease of use. Even after all these years, I can not but pity the guy who cherishes the opportunity to relieve him/herself of the burden of that weight on account of having found something to type. Rolling out the mouse or navigating the trackpad is even fun to watch. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, September 13, 2013 - linkLet me ask you two pertinent questions:
1) How old are you?
2) How much do you type in any given day?
You might think the first question is meant to be insulting, but I am speaking for experience. What I did in my teens and twenties is not something I can comfortably do in my late 30s. I did happen to type about 1500 words on a tablet in a 1.5 hour period earlier this week. My hands still hurt and I have sworn that I won't make that mistake again!
That leads to the second question: how much do you type? You can pity the guy that pulls out a laptop and keyboard to type, but I can tell you as a writer who generally types 10-25K words per week (email, articles, etc.) that the quality of keyboard matters a whole lot for some people. And it's not just the quality of keyboard -- the size is critical as well; I can't type comfortably on anything less than 12.5", end of discussion (and 13.3" or larger is preferred). If you only consume data and don't type, tablets can be fine. The instant you have to write an article or lengthy paper, you need a keyboard (or you need substantially better speech recognition than the current generation of tablets offer). Reply
bkiserx7 - Friday, September 13, 2013 - linkGreat, straight-forward article. Thank you for the read. Reply
jeffkro - Monday, September 16, 2013 - linkYou guys missed the point, people who get desktops these days want a full blown keyboard, mouse, and big high res monitor. I have both, but my desktop is a lot more user friendly. Reply
TFrog - Monday, September 23, 2013 - linkWhen are we going to do a mobile comparison instead of a desktop comparison? It would be most interesting to see the differences between an Intel i7 with 4600/5200 graphics and AMD's A-10 and it's integrated graphics chip. I've yet to see this done anywhere. Reply
Insanity133 - Friday, November 29, 2013 - linkThe experience of sitting down at a desktop computer is far better than a laptop, laptops are meant to be lower cost and portable, whilst desktops cost more, but are more comfortable to use and are much more powerful. Reply


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PHILADELPHIA – The University of Pennsylvania's Director of Athletics, Steven J. Bilsky W'71, has announced the hiring of Dr. Scarlett K. Schmidt as the athletic department's Executive Director of Development. Dr. Schmidt will begin her duties at Penn on September 4.
"I am pleased to welcome Scarlett to our department," said Bilsky. "She is taking on a very important role in our department, but I have the utmost confidence in her abilities based on her track record. Scarlett is coming to Penn at a very important time in our department's history; we are wrapping up the Campaign for Penn Athletics this fall, and a lot has been done thanks to our development staff over the last five years. That said, development will continue to play a prominent role in how we conduct our business, and I look forward to working with Scarlett as we move forward in a post-campaign world."
"I am excited to join the University of Pennsylvania family and to work with all of the wonderful alumni, fans, donors, student-athletes and administration," said Schmidt. "I would like to thank Steve Bilsky and Assistant VP for Development Linda Schleifer for the opportunity to lead the Athletics Development program and continue to build on the recent success of the entire Athletic Department."
Dr. Schmidt comes to Penn from George Washington University, where she has been the Senior Executive Director of Athletics Development/Associate Athletic Director. Prior to that, she served as Director of Athletic Development for the University of Delaware Athletic Fund (UDAF).
At GW, Dr. Schmidt collaborated with University Development and Athletics to set the strategic direction of the newly formed office of Athletics Development. Schmidt oversaw all area of Athletics philanthropic initiatives including creating the Buff and Blue Annual Fund and GW National Advisory Council.
As director of the UDAF from 2007-11, Dr. Schmidt oversaw a 300-percent increase in dollars raised for the fund during her tenure, and established record growth of new donors to the University of Delaware Athletic Fund. Schmidt established a culture of philanthropy for UDAF by building strong and mutually beneficial relationships across the University, donor, athletic alumni and season ticket holder communities, and through the creation of various clubs and point programs to encourage giving and provide donors with unique and invaluable benefits. Through a newsletter, brochures, frequent receptions and the successful Student-Athlete Thank-A-Thon program, Dr. Schmidt elevated the UDAF to unprecedented heights, and increased the visibility and awareness of UDAF at University of Delaware sporting events and in University communications.
Prior to her stint at Delaware, Dr. Schmidt was the Director of Annual Giving for the Buckeye Club in The Ohio State University's Department of Athletics from 1996-1999, and Athletic Development Manager for the Virginia Tech Athletic Fund from 1993-1996.
A National Association Athletic Development Director (NAADD) Executive Committee member and Third Vice President, Schmidt earned a Bachelor of Science (Marketing Education), Master of Science (Sports Management Administration), and Ph.D of Education (Education Administration/Higher Education) from Virginia Tech. Scarlett and her husband Jon have one daughter, Sydney.

subset: commoncrawl


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News By Tag
* New Hope Pa
* John Murdoch Art
* Dot Bunn Paintings
* Laura den Hertog Fine Art
* Jason Tako Fine Art
* More Tags...
Industry News
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Industry News
Is Bucks County Gallery really doing this in the 100 year old tradition?
Dot Bunn & John Murdoch demonstrate their mastery during a live model event at Bucks County Gallery of Fine Art - New Hope PA.
The Invitational event, "Realistic Visions" , will include five artists who all paint representational artwork. Included are Dot Bunn (PA), Jody Furch (NJ), Laura, den Hertog (CAN), John Murdoch (PA), and Jason Tako (PA). Bunn and Murdoch, two prominent Bucks County painters will be drawing a live model at the gallery during a cocktail reception on Saturday November 10th, from 2-5pm.
The month long exhibit will feature landscape, figurative, and still life paintings by all five artists. Gallery owner Howard Cooperman said "this is the first time we've ever invited artists to paint a model at the gallery. I'm excited and honored that Bunn and Murdoch were receptive to the idea."
Laura den Hertog explains "My still life paintings explore the human touch, often delving into food culture, a theme that recurs in the figure work. The figurative pieces draw on my experiences and stories shared by family and friends. I have a fascination with hands for their beauty, cleverness and ability to express so much. This poetry of the hands is prominent in much of my work. My landscape work is about gratitude, each piece is a tribute to our home."
Jason Tako said "Using a soft and limited palette that usually consist of only the three primary colors plus white, Jason seeks to portray reality in both form and light. "Light affects form, but form also affects light. I do not paint light only, I also paint what light illuminates.
Even light needs something to shine on for us to see. My use of soft edges, textures and varied thicknesses of brushstrokes shows my search for creating paintings that combine lighting along with a strong feeling of texture, form and solidity
Tako added "This gives my work a look and feel that is refreshing and unique among today's wildlife and landscape art." The human eye doesn't see every single feather, hair or branch in perfect outline, it sees masses and shapes or color, it sees structure and light. These objective images translate into a subjective emotional human response. This is what I want people to see and feel in my work.
John Murdoch has spent decades mastering the classical realist arts of drawing and painting the human figure. His work is a continuation of the old master realist traditions carried in to the modern era. His subjects include portraits, figures, still life and landscape all worked in oil paint or oil paint and gold leaf. John's vision is to establish the classical atelier methods in Bucks County and in doing so make the area a center for the classical figurative arts in addition to its already vital landscape tradition.
Dot Bunn about her work says "Painting should be an expression of experience rather than an exact copy of nature. There should be an element of poetry and a unique sense of the artist's calligraphy expressed in ones work. Regularly working from a live model hones ones feel for proportion and builds a comfort level that allows for a more artistic expression of the subject."
Jody Furch says that "painting is deep in my soul, something I have to do. I love color, shadow, and the warm and cool of light, and the way it interacts with the trees, rocks, and the rivers and streams. I especially love painting water scenes". His farm landscapes and award winning fly fishing scenes will be featured. Jody's artwork has been placed on many magazine covers.
The public is invited to join us Saturday November 10th, from 2-5 pm to watch as Bunn and Murdoch individually create a drawing of a live model and a cocktail reception hosted at the gallery. For more details call the gallery 215.862.5272 or visit their web site http://www.buckscountygalleryart.com/
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This is not a BT bug. Moved.
I have a problem with kadu.
The backtrack 4 had this error.
After installing the console kadu I got an error with the connection:
Hub error
Conection time out
This is not a BT bug. Moved.
To be successful here you should read all of the following.
If you are new to Back|Track
Back|Track Wiki
Failure to do so will probably get your threads deleted or worse.


text:
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March brings with it the hope of spring, at least in New York (and the nagging fear that we could still have one more big snow storm), and all that comes with the new season — crocuses peeping out of the earth, nesting robins, and overeager fashion-lovers prematurely donning sandals outdoors.
For me, March has always meant the start of Good Bread Season: Irish Soda Bread in March, followed by Easter Bread in March or April. In my family, my mom made these breads, two of my favorite foods since the start of my solid food-eating life, only for their requisite holidays, St. Patrick's Day and Easter. Irish Soda Bread never reappeared as Christmas Bread or Happy Birthday Bread, and Easter Bread was never reincarnated as Sorry Your Hamster Died Bread or Just Because Bread. I accepted that it must be this way to preserve tradition and make those holidays really special. And with Irish Soda Bread, since it's a traditional Irish food, it should be served only on the one day of the year when my family celebrated its partially Irish heritage.
But as I've grown older, I've wondered: Is Irish Soda Bread a traditional Irish food?
A quick Google search will reveal that Irish Soda Bread is no more Irish than fortune cookies are Chinese. There's a really in-depth explanation of the bread's history over on MSNBC, but essentially, Irish Soda Bread as we know it is an American take on basic table bread eaten in Ireland; a quick bread made with inexpensive baking soda instead of the pricier yeast. The caraway seeds, raisins, currants that some recipes call for are all American variations and would not have been served in Ireland way-back-when, and the table bread would have been an everyday staple, and not just served on a special day, alongside corned beef and cabbage and green beer.
So there you go. Irish Soda Bread isn't really Irish. But there's no Santa, and that doesn't make Christmas any less awesome, does it? I'll be sticking with my beloved traditions and will make my Irish Great-Aunt Lillian's soda bread recipe on the 17th, even though it's not really Irish, and probably not even Aunt Lil's — it's likely she tore it out of Woman's Day in the '60's or picked up the recipe from a neighbor.
Aunt Lil's Irish Soda Bread
4 cups sifted flour
1/2 cups sugar
1/4 cup shortening
2 tablespoons caraway seeds
1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
1 teaspoon baking soda
2 cups raisins (half regular, half golden)
1 egg
1 1/3 cups buttermilk
Sift flour, measure and add sugar, raisins, baking powder and shortening. Add baking soda to the buttermilk then beat in egg. Make a well in the dry ingredients; add the wet ingredients quickly. Mix gently to form ball, using your hands or a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook. Do not overmix. Drop the dough onto a lightly floured surface to form loaves. Cut cross in top. Place on greased pan. Bake 360 degrees F for 50 minutes or until tester comes out clean. Cool 10 minutes before turning out.
Irish Soda Bread is super-easy to make. You don't even need to use a mixer (but I like to). A flour sifter will help, but if you don't have one, you can use a fine sieve to sift the flour.
It's important to remember no to overmix your ingredients. Irish Soda Bread is a dense bread, similar to a scone, but can easily become dry if overmixed. Quickly add the wet ingredients to a well you've made in the dry ingredients, and mix with your hands or a dough hook until it just comes together. And I know what you're thinking. Shortening. I usually avoid it, but with this recipe, I'm afraid to substitute. You can try, but I always use Crisco, just get the kind that promises no transfat.
When you're ready to form the loaf, lightly flour your work surface so the dough doesn't stick, but don't use too much flour so that a bunch works into the bread. You don't want to knead the bread, just gently form a loaf. This recipe makes one round loaf, but you can make two smaller loaves if you prefer. The cross in the top of the bread is both scientific and superstitious — it serves to allow the bread to cook evenly at its thickest part, and also serves to let the devil out of the bread. So don't skip this step if you're worried about that.
To serve: In my opinion, corned beef and cabbage is optional (I loathe boiled meat of any kind, sorry) but butter is not. Slather a big slice with a schmear of softened butter, and serve, often, maybe not just for St. Pat's .
More Irish favorites:
- Bobby Flay's Luck of the Irish Brunch
- Michael Chiarello's Guinness and Onion Soup With Irish Cheddar Crouton
- Colcannon
- Braised Cabbage
- Nadia G's Sirloin Shepherd's Pie
- Tyler Florence's Corned Beef and Cabbage
- Dave Lieberman's Chocolate Stout Cupcakes


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Being a busy Mom that works from home, I love making up meals that are a quick fix, but also healthy at the same time. Couscous is just one of those amazing foods that cook up so quickly, that it's become a regular at the meal table. Recently I've gotten into the habit of cooking it up real quick with some chicken broth and adding butter for a quick and easy side dish for multiple meals. But then I decided it was time to highlight the couscous even more by making it the main dish with a a few great ingredients thrown in. Thus, this recipe was born.
Bob's Red Mill Couscous with Chicken Sausage and Mixed Veggies
Prep time: 3 minutes
Cooking time: 20 minutes
Total time: 23 minutes
Serves: 6-8
- 1 package of Bob's Red Mill Whole Wheat Pearl Couscous
- 1 quart Chicken Broth
- 1/2 package of frozen Mixed Veggies
- 3 pre-cooked Chicken Sausages
- 1/2 stick of Butter
Bring broth to a boil in a large saucepan. Add in Bob's Red Mill Couscous, return mixture to a boil and then reduce heat to simmer. Cover and simmer for 10-15 minutes, or until broth is almost completely absorbed and then add in the frozen mixed veggies. Slice sausages into bite-sized pieces and also add the mixture. Stir occasionally until the liquid is completely absorbed and the sausages are nice and hot. Stir in the butter until it is completely melted for a nice creamy texture.
This meal is great served with a nice side salad, or as a meal all on its own. It's packed with whole grains, protein and veggies to boot! Enjoy with your family or friends!
Crystal Collins blogs at TheThriftyMama.com where she helps people save money through a more holistic approach. On her blog you'll discover that being green and healthy doesn't mean you have to break the bank!


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Perhaps the greatest couple of all time. Rachael is such a caring individual who has the worlds largest heart and had so many skills & qualities that it would be impossible to name them all! Russell is there to be by her side through thick and thin. He'll love her unconditionally till the day he dies. It was meant to be. Rachael is the definition of perfection. Everything from her snort when she laughs, natural beauty without all that makeup, her beautiful smile, and love for Coldplay. Russell, is just a crazy and outgoing individual who is so lucky to have a girl like Rachael I'm his life. It is perfection. Other couples are jealous, but it's okay. They totally understand.
Girl: "Babe, why aren't we a Rachael & Russell couple!"
Guy: "It's because we aren't perfection"
Guy: "It's because we aren't perfection"
by ItsAllAboutTheFarmAnimals January 06, 2013
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text: I've been eyeing the Danish brand Carmakoma lately. OK…I've always had my eye on them. Ever since I saw their latest video starring one of my favorite models and friend Fluvia, I kind of want everything. I couldn't help but create a wish list. Their line definitely has that classic European style. I miss that. I seriously can't pick just one piece. So, if you want to buy me anything please feel free. LOL!


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Moody's downgrades West Penn Allegheny on likelihood of bankruptcy
Moody's Investors Service on Tuesday downgraded West Penn Allegheny Health System's credit rating further into junk status on its expectation that Highmark Inc. will take the troubled health system into bankruptcy.
Moody's maintained its negative outlook on the region's second-largest hospital system as it dropped the system's rating a step to "Ca," down from "Caa." The "Ca" rating, which is one step above Moody's lowest rating, reflect's West Penn Allegheny's "extremely weak credit-worthiness."
The downgrade gives West Penn Allegheny the lowest rating among the 462 health care organizations that are rated by Moody's.
"The Ca rating reflects the severity of the financial status of the system and our belief that there is a high likelihood of a restructuring or bankruptcy filing," Moody's said in a report.
The report goes on to state that a court ruling issued Friday preventing West Penn from talking to other possible buyers "is a negative credit development."
West Penn has about $750 million in bond debt and $280 million in unfunded pension liability. On Monday, it restarted talks with Highmark, the state's largest health insurance company, to resurrect Highmark's proposed $475 million acquisition of the system, which operates five hospitals in the Pittsburgh region.
Highmark and West Penn officials said they have talked with West Penn's bondholders and plan more discussions.
West Penn tried to get out of the deal with Highmark, accusing the insurer of demanding it reduce debt through bankruptcy. Highmark sued, and Allegheny County Common Pleas Court Judge Christine Ward granted an injunction to keep the deal together.
"We are not surprised by Moody's rating action," West Penn spokeswoman Kelly Sorice said. "Nonetheless, WPAHS continues to believe that an affiliation with Highmark is in the best interests of both organizations and of the greater community."
Highmark spokesman Michael Weinstein declined to comment.
In late October, Fitch Ratings downgraded West Penn's credit rating. Standard & Poor's, which is reviewing its rating on the health system, has not taken action.
The deal is awaiting approval by the state Insurance Department, which has expressed "significant concerns" about West Penn's ability to repay its debt.
Alex Nixon is a staff writer for Trib Total Media. He can be reached at 412-320-7928 or email@example.com.


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Murder at Grammar ManorTrick brain teasers appear difficult at first, but they have a trick that makes them really easy.
Grammar Manor once again provided the perfect backdrop for the annual Punctuation Ball, hosted by Lord Charles of Colon and his dainty wife Sandra of Semicolon. Herbert Hash conducted the large brass band who were playing a slow song as the assembled punctuation marks danced serif in serif.
The evening, as it did in the years before, again was filled with a sense of glorious opulence and elegance which the punctuation marks would remember fondly. However, at the stroke of midnight this atmosphere was shattered as the many lights in the ballroom went out. Everything was submerged into darkness in an instant.
There was much commotion as the guests tried to work out what had happened. After a few moments, Quentin Question Mark found the switch and restored light to the room - and found Lord Charles in the middle of the dance floor, lying in a pool of blood. The distraught party guests called in the police to investigate, and the force sent their best man: Sergeant Arthur A. Ampersand.
Sergeant Ampersand surveyed the scene and spoke to the guests before drawing up a list of his top five murder suspects:
- Alan the Asterisk
- Carlos Comma
- Edward Ellipsis
- Percy Parentheses
- Trevor Tilde
"I have followed all necessary leads to find out who murdered Lord Charles," said Sergeant Ampersand, "and I conclude that it's a mystery!" Before the guests could comment, Sergeant Ampersand checked his notes and arrested the culprit.
Who murdered Lord Charles?
HintTwo tips here: firstly, check the category of this puzzle. Secondly, *listen* to what Sergeant Ampersand says.
AnswerEdward Ellipsis killed Lord Charles.
Sergeant Ampersand didn't say "it's a mystery", but rather, "it's a Mr. E". The only person in the list of suspects whose name begins with E is Edward Ellipsis.
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ZANESVILLE -- Jeffery M. Donahue, 56, of Columbus, passed away at 4:30 a.m. Monday (Feb. 18, 2013) at Grant Medical Center.
He was born Feb. 14, 1957, in Beverly, son of the late Cecil and Marilyn Angle Donahue.
Mr. Donahue was editor for Columbus Dispatch and "This Weeks News." He received many awards for writing and editing news articles.
He was a track standout for his high school Ft. Frye and coached many volleyball, softball, and track teams from grade school through high school to college.
He is survived by his wife, Joyce Eppley Donahue of the home; son, Keith E. (Angie) Donahue of Cambridge; daughter, Karen Slagle of Lowell; sisters, Cecilia Armstrong of Waterford and Kim Donahue of Marietta; grandchildren, Jordan Harris, Amaya Slagle, Jace Slagle and Liam Donahue.
In addition to his parents, he was preceded by sister, Sherri Cain.
Friends may call from 4 to 8 p.m. today (Wednesday) at DeLong-Baker & Lanning Funeral Home, Zanesville, where services will be 11 a.m. Thursday with Pastor James Peters officiating.
To leave condolences or sign online guest book, please visit www.delongbakerlanning.com


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The MMR titer measures the Measles, Mumps and Rubella IgG blood antibody levels.
Accesa Labs does not provide medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. All users should consult with a medical provider for specific health concerns.
MMR stands for Measles, Mumps and Rubella. These are three different types of infections that can cause a wide range of symptoms (generally mild) and can be encountered when one is studying or working with patients in a healthcare setting. Because the MMR vaccine exists to protect people who are not immune to MMR as measured by the MMR titer test, the MMR titer is routinely performed prior to potential exposure to patients infected with MMR.
The MMR titer is designed to check for MMR immunity by measuring the IgG, or Immunoglobulin G, antibody levels for the three MMR components.
The most common reason that someone might already have MMR immunity as seen on the MMR titer report is because they previously received the MMR vaccine series. The MMR vaccine series is routinely given to children in the US and in many other places. For some, receiving the MMR vaccine series confers lifelong immunity as measured by the MMR titer levels. Another reason someone might have a positive MMR titer result is because they were actually infected by and recovered from having MMR. With the widespread adoption of the MMR vaccine, this happens much less frequently, especially in the US.
As a result, it is recommended to get an MMR titer before getting the MMR vaccine again for anyone who does not want to run the risk of having potential side effects to the MMR vaccine. This is of particular interest to many people because the MMR vaccine is a weakened live vaccine and does present a small risk of actually causing a severe infection when administered. This is also the case with the Varicella vaccine which is why people assessing immunity prior to revaccinating will often check their Varicella titer blood test in addition to their MMR titer.
At Accesa Labs, we work with labs that have MMR titer locations nationwide.The MMR titer lab locations that we work with are the same ones used by US doctors and licensed medical providers.
For additional reading on the MMR titer and vaccine, please click here. If you are looking for other types of titer tests, please see our titer test page.


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Hey there, time traveller!
This article was published 17/6/2014 (1160 days ago), so information in it may no longer be current.
Winnipeg's mayoral race is about to lurch into a new phase, with the first gathering of every candidate under the same roof.
Over the lunch hour, St. Boniface's francophone chamber of commerce plans to host an all-candidates forum that should offer a glimpse into the campaign readiness of Winnipeg's seven mayoral wannabes.
The 2014 vote is starting to sneak up on the electorate. Winnipeggers go to the polls Oct. 22, which is only four months and four days away.
Since two of those months happen to be July and August, when a large portion of the voting population is too busy beach-going and barbecuing burgers to pay attention to municipal policy, there actually isn't that much of a mayoral race left.
To date, the four mainstream candidates have been extremely cautious when it comes to making campaign promises. Former councillor Gord Steeves was the first to announce and register but has yet to make a pledge. Fellow lawyer Brian Bowman held a campaign launch and made one package of promises about openness at city hall.
Former NDP MP and MLA Judy Wasylycia-Leis has made a similar municipal-reform pledge and also unveiled a loose infrastructure pledge that included a specific promise about taxation. Charleswood-Tuxedo Coun. Paula Havixbeck rattled off a trio of promises right after she registered but has been quiet ever since.
As the first third of the race comes to a close, the electorate has been left with only a broad idea of what these people would do if they were elected.
"The race has been oddly developing. It's been disjointed thus far. It feels like people are just getting their feet underneath them," Steeves said Tuesday. "This is going to be a strange election. Candidates are going to have to be extra careful what they say."
In separate interviews Tuesday, Steeves, Havixbeck and Bowman all pledged to conduct a heck of a lot of research and internal vetting before they unveil their ideas. Since the public is in an ornery mood and won't put up with empty platitudes, the candidates figure they better come up with promises they can actually deliver.
"I want to make sure when we're releasing policy, we're putting out something thoughtful," Bowman said.
"I want to have sound, sensible stuff," Havixbeck echoed.
"I want whatever I'm proposing to be doable and make sense," Steeves added.
The candidates insist they are not just playing turtle until Labour Day, when the campaign enters the home stretch. In fact, they promised to unveil their platforms throughout July and August, when conventional wisdom holds voters don't pay attention.
"I think a lot of people go to the lake, but they still read the paper and talk about it," offered Havixbeck.
"I hope they will pay attention," added Bowman. "All I can do as a candidate is to give them a reason to be interested."
Adding to the distraction is the impending release of an audit into major Winnipeg real-estate transactions conducted over a five-year period that ended in 2012. That document has the potential to be as explosive as the fire-paramedic station construction review that rocked city hall last fall.
Another distraction will come when Mayor Sam Katz announces whether he plans to retire from public life, as many expect him to do, or seek a fourth term.
"There are some challenges getting messages out there for every candidate in the short term," Steeves said.
Wasylycia-Leis, who plans to make a small-business policy announcement this morning, was not available to comment Tuesday. But she will attend the noon-hour forum, along with Steeves, Havixbeck, Bowman and lesser-known long shots Mike Vogiatzakis, Robert-Falcon Ouellette and Michel Fillion.
At today's sold-out forum at the Norwood Hotel, each candidate will be given two minutes to make opening and closing statements. They will also be asked two questions. They won't have the opportunity to question each other.
"The format is not supposed to allow for that, but they do have live microphones in front of them," organizer Matt Allard said. "Through events like this one, their messages and their character will start to trickle out."
At least that's the hope. With four months to go before a momentous vote, the sooner we get to know these people, the better.


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The Luck of the Irish Hand Decorated Cookies will make your Irish eyes smile on St. Patrick's Day. This assortment of 20 hand decorated sugar cookies are shaped like leprechaun hats, shamrocks, and pots of gold in St. Patrick's Day green and gold! The Luck of the Irish Cookies come in a gift tin, tied with a festive bow.
Each cookie is individually hand-made and decorated and is approximately 2-3 in. in size. Made with all natural ingredients including butter and genuine sugar. No soy substitutes, corn syrups, artificial sweeteners, preservatives or margarines. Shelf life is 1? 2 weeks, or to preserve flavor and freshness, store covered in freezer for up to 6 months. Gift tin measures 8 in. x 6 in. x 4 in.


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Got into NCECA student show-need info on freight shipping and kickstarter
Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:05 AM
I realize that I'm proposing two different topics in one post. (Hope this is Ok). I just figured it might be easier that way, or maybe I was just lazy. Anyways, these are my questions:
1. Do you have experience shipping a pallet of art work half way across the country? Can you recommend anyone? Should I consider a specialized art shipping company? Do I insure as art, sculpture, home goods? (I heard that many shippers will often not give you the insurance value since it's your stuff.)
I got in the NCECA student show and I'm super excited to be part of this. The problem, I submitted a small and large piece,they choose the big one. It's 10 ft long divided in six equal sections. Each panel (30"x20"x9") needs to be created individually and everything would be loaded and shipped on a pallet. Besides being large it is painfully delicate. We are talking 6000 paper thin porcelain pieces that can all move. Now, I have devised a way to keep each panel from moving in the box but all those little pieces move around freely and can't touch any of the walls. I spoke with a shipping company that said it could cost $300 to $400 one way depending on the insurance value. But, if I need it there by a certain day, which I do, it would cost $4,100. The guy told me that the difference in price relates to a faster delivery and fewer unloads and reloads. I'm shipping from California to Houston and back. I was thinking of driving but I think that would also cost a small fortune and take more time.
2. Has anyone ever done a kickstarter? What kind of gifts would you like to get? (I can throw, handbuild, sculpt, screen print, draw, paint, sew, paper crafts, and create silver jewelry.)
I'm seriously considering putting one together to help me fund the costs of shipping, the flight, and conference fees. If you have experience or know others who have been successful, I would love to hear any advice you could offer. I figure I would have to get it up ASAP, to ensure enough time to raise the money.
Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:42 AM
Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:29 AM
If you are a Potters Council Member you can get freight discounts with Fedex and others. I shipped two pallets of an Exhibition from south Texas to Montana in 2010 for $190. I prepared the pallets at the Fedex depot. I used my members benefits and talked to the representative who arrange the discount. You need to work with a members benefits person when you do this.
Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:23 AM
Since this piece is so problematic and fragile and in constant motion, I think it would be worth your time to get professional advice on how to pack it. ... You will need a re-usable system because you will have to ship it home too. If you cannot afford the cost of a consult maybe you can swing a barter.
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:15 PM
And I think it rides smoothly as possible.
Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:28 PM
@ Marcia, thanks. I didn't know that about the potters council. That sounds great. Do you remember how long it took to get it from texas to montana. I asked the guy I spoke with how long this averages and he was very unhelpful. To me this is the most critical thing since I have to do the Kickstarter, give it enough time, and have enough time to get the money before I send it.
@Chris Thanks, I'm super excited and I realize the visibility I will receive from such a show. I plan on making plywood boxes w/ hinged lids for easy access and reuse. I will be using those big rolls of plastic to wrap it all up. I was considering adding some packing peanuts not to make it really tight in there but just to restrict a little movement. I might have too cut them smaller.
I got the name for some professional movers from another artist but they are very far and I think it is a hard thing to describe and you kind need to see the work in person. I think I might talk to someone at the museum here.
Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:11 PM
You need things that stay exactly where they are put.
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:04 PM
I would not count on peanuts to keep anything in its place ... They move and settle a lot during shipping and always leave the most critical areas exposed!
You need things that stay exactly where they are put.
I ship pots from the US to Japan frequently. Everything is "tied down" inside the outer casing so that it simply cannot move one iota... and the outer boxes have a layer of hard rigid foam board behind the box that is either 1" or 2" thick to deal with potential puncture forces from the exterior.
And congratulations!
John Baymore
Adjunct Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art
Former Guest Professor, Wuxi Institute of Arts and Science, Yixing, China
Former President and Past President; Potters Council
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Maj Oliver Albert Rickert
Aug 23, 1921 — San Antonio, Texas
Oliver was born in Waterloo, Iowa, but grew up in Aurora, Illinois. During the depression, the family moved to Chickasha, Oklahoma, where he graduated from high school. In high school, he met, and later married Nadine Ramona Powell.
In October, 1942 he was drafted into the US Army Air Corps and was trained as a radio operator on a C-47 transport. In July, 1943 his squadron was deployed to New Guinea in the Pacific, air dropping supplies to the Australian soldiers, who were fighting the Japanese. During a drop, they would take ground fire from the Japanese; and, on their return to base they were harassed by Japanese fighters. When a Japanese held island was invaded by the US Army and Marines, initially the squadron would drop paratroops; and, just as soon as the Japanese air field was somewhat secured the squadron would begin flying in supplies and removing the wounded.
The squadron received both the United States Distinguished Unit Citation and the Philippine Presidential Unit Citation for its combat operations. While in the Pacific, according to his squadron records, Oliver flew 435 combat missions and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross three times and the Air Medal four times.
After WWII, he re-enlisted in the Army Air Corps and was almost immediately sent to China. His squadron, an Air Advisory Group, was "teaching the Chinese (Nationalists) how to run an air force." The squadron was later transferred to the State Department to provide transportation for the Nationalist, Communists, and State Department personnel, negotiating a treaty between the Nationalist and Communists. After the Communists overran Shanghai, the squadron "blew up their planes on the runway and then made their way to the docks to catch ships to Hawaii." (Departure from China and arrival in Hawaii confirmed by his military records)
After China, he was assigned to a troop carrier squadron at Bergstrom AFB in Texas. Within a week of the Soviets banning road and rail access to Berlin, his squadron was flying supplies to the German people in West Berlin.
In Korea, his squadron was flying C-119 transports (flying boxcars). Among other missions, the squadron air dropped supplies to the United Nations troops trapped behind the Chosin Reservoir (Dec 6th – Dec 11th in -37 degree weather). While in Korea, he flew another 55 combat missions and was awarded another Air Medal. He also received a field commission and was returned to the U.S.
He completed his military career with the Air Force's Security Service, headquartered at Kelly AFB in San Antonio, Texas. He retired as a Major and Director of Communications Security for the Air Force.