text:
Results 1 to 20 of 137
Thread: The case for and against DRM
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Posts
- 58
The case for and against DRM
Edit: In short, just write out the reasons why you are anti-DRM (wall of text ok). Thanks!
I have been very interested in why DRM exists in the first place, why do publishers persist (in an ever increasing fashion) with DRM, if it is so harmful to their profits and certainly has no effect on getting pirates to purchase a copy.
There seem to be many people who are anti-DRM, and I hope someone more knowledgeable than me, can argue the case of anti-DRM vs pro-DRM, so that I can finally put this thing to rest. At least, please, argue the case of anti-DRM rationally and robustly.
Because, for months now, I've found the opposite to be the case. The more I read about it, the more I realise the necessity of this vile thing called DRM, which I, like everyone, despises.
The argumentation demonstrated on websites like RockPaperShotgun are lacking, with broken logic to justify statistics clutching at straws, so that left me thoroughly unimpressed. I then looked at the academic research and found several articles showing the effectiveness of DRM - investigating levels of effective DRM, and indeed one found a case for when increased piracy is useful due to positive network externatilities (free publicity). Overwhelmingly, the argument was pro-DRM. A brief critical literature review I prepared from this (revised earlier post) is quoted at the end of this post.
Unsatisfied, like many, with academic reasons on the effectiveness of DRM, I found more practical ones. This one exhibited the most technical insight, and succesfully and robustly examined the reasons why DRM exists:
Most anti-DRM arguments were thus succesfully argued against.
If you can, I invite you to (preferably with a wall of text, like me ) to rationally argue the anti-DRM case. Because I too like many, would want to get rid of DRM.
Lit review:
There is not much relevant peer-reviewed / academic literature on the matter of PC software DRM and its effects, but there is some. References are lazy, including para-phrasing, and there is a lot of copy-paste, but this should suffice for a forum post.
The 2005 GSP Report commissioned by the Business Software Alliance estimates that 35% of software is copied. Software copying rates are as high as 92% in Vietnam and 90% in China. In the United States, copying rates are estimated to be 21%. The study concludes that software copying is one of the industry's worst problems. The study did not include the positive network effects of copying, which Hui and Png (2003) did and showed that industry estimates of lost profits because of copying more than doubled the actual losses in such a case.
According to Jain(2008), "Many industry analysts see copying as one of the key threats to profitability and innovation. They claim that copying leads to higher prices for legitimate users, lower profits for the firms, reduced new product innovation and is generally harmful to society ." The paper continues to examine the impact of illegal copying of software and other similar intellectual properties on firms' prices, profits, and quality choices, even when there are no network effects and the market is saturated.
Controversially, his paper actually finds a case when copying can increase firms' profits, lead to better quality products and increase social welfare. The assertion is that there is reduced price competition in mature markets with no network externalities, applicable when, for example, markets of entertainment products mature in developing countries with large income disparities (such as China and India). Unfortunately for you, this case is not applicable with Batman's DRM, and the converse is true with regard to copying's effect on the firm's profits, product quality, and social welfare.
Hill (2007) established the only effective strategic responses copyright holders can adopt to deal with pirating. His approach involved first establishing the causes of copying by prior work done (1) work on moral development (Kohlberg, 1969), (2)equity theory (Adams, 1963; Kabanoff, 1991), and (3) moral intensity (Jones, 1991). Based on the causes and economic consequences, both in a static and dynamic sense, Hill then proceeds to offer the only effective strategic responses that copyright-holders can pursue, of which there are seven. The fourth one is relevant with several games like Anno 2070, which is "offer something extra to consumers who purchase the legal good". "One solution that can works well for computer software is to offer online services, such as periodic upgrades and security patches, to consumers who register the legal product using a security code that is unique to every legal copy of the product. Since those who purchase pirated copies do not have access to a security code, they cannot get these benefits. This strategy effectively raises the value of the legal product, decreasing the perception of inequity."
Note that both in the case of Jain's paper and Hill's book, one of the first assumptions is that the software protection is always cracked. Also, the effect of losing consumers due to intrusive DRM is always part of the effect they consider, and is arguably why they researched it, i.e. to look at effective and profitable levels of copyright protection, DRM.
Another interesting paper on this (Sundararajan, 2004) where an optimal choice of technological deterrence level is found in a market where sellers can influence the degree of piracy by implementing DRM systems. He finds the optimal response in market where the seller can price discriminate, is to offer lower levels of technology-based protection, to the point where the pirated good will always be inferior to the legal product whilst minimising any impact for the legal user.
The issue is converting a sub-set of those pirates to buy the game, and this does happen (Jain(2008),Hill(2007)), which ends up translating into a significant amount of money because there is a ridiculous number of pirates (one in third, unbelievable). This is even after the fact they consider the cost of implementing and running the DRM, the loss associated with perception of intrusive DRM, any possible product innovation loss and harm to social welfare. Even after considering all these aspects in detail, it is still better to have slightly intrusive DRM according to them. The level of intrusiveness of the DRM is arguably one of the main points and there is certainly a level where it is detrimental to, well everyone. Buying specific DRM hardware, ID checks before playing the game via creditcards, passports, fingerprinting or other biometric scans, regional locks etc. are examples. Most games DRM is fairly non-intrusive (having internet, running out activations in an unlikely event), and ends up being a win-win situation for all on the whole (apart from criminals).
I think my main issue is - if you say this level of DRM is so intrusive that it harms the sales to such an extent as to not be worthwhile, please show me some evidence. Otherwise, I will take the peer-reviewed research. And my deductive skills, which say that no publisher would continue to repeatedly punish their profits, year after year, if this DRM was indeed harming their profits. And make no mistake - companies operate for profits, and DRM would be the first thing to go if it was so detrimental to them.
Adams, J. S. 1963. Toward an understanding of inequity. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 67:422–436.
Hill,C. 2007, Digital piracy: Causes, consequences,and strategic responses', Asia Pacific J Manage (2007) 24:9–25,DOI 10.1007/s10490-006-9025-0
Hui, K., I. Png. 2003. Piracy and the legitimate demand for recorded
music. Contributions Econom. Analysis Policy 2(1).
Jones, T. M. 1991. Ethical decision making by individuals in organizations: An issue contingent model.Academy of Management Review, 16: 366–395.
Jain,S., Digital Piracy: A Competitive Analysis,Marketing Science, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 2008, pp. 610–626
issn 0732-2399 _ eissn 1526-548X _ 08 _ 2704 _ 0610
Kabanoff, B. 1991. Equity, equality, power, and conflict. Academy of Management Review, 16: 416–441.
Kohlberg, L. 1969. Stage and sequence: The cognitive development approach to socialization. In Growling,D. (Ed.). Handbook of Socialization Theory and Research. New York: Rand McNally.
Sundararajan, 2004: Managing Digital Piracy: Pricing and Prote
Last edited by rojimboo; 24-07-2012 at 04:51 PM.
DRM, with the exception of something as intricate as Blizzard's always online DRM in D3, really doesn't stop piracy. Case in point, I could go pirate any piece of software out there (game or otherwise) right now in about 30 seconds.
You don't need a peer reviewed article, go do a search on a torrent site.
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Posts
- 58
In the light of the fact that this thread is about people's anti-DRM arguments (not about influencing people one way or the other), I won't really debunk any of those points, which are of course debunkable and not really valid, rational anti-DRM points at all.
Myself... I'm not anti-DRM, necessarily. DRM is not bad just by existing. Specific implementations of it are bad, but there can be good DRM.
I think it's rather simple really. Suppose that the more intrusive and annoying the DRM system is, the better it is at preventing piracy (note: no total prevention is needed here), and the more annoyed the potential legal customers are. Inturisiveness is a scale, sort of. Zero DRM does nothing to piracy but consumers are not annoyed. Huge, massive, overkill DRM prevents some amount of pirates from pirating, forces part of the would-be-pirates to buy the game, and prevents some legal to-be-customers from purchasing the game due to the annoying DRM. So, therefore, at some point of the DRM-intrusiveness scale, the profits of the gaming company are maxed. It is hardly plausible to claim that the maximum lies in either end of the scale. Therefore, some DRM but not too much is the optimal choice. Because of imperfect information, different companies estimate this optimum differently, ending up in different points along the intrusiveness scale.
It's not a matter of either no DRM at all or some sort of fingerprinting system. It's a matter of searching for the optimum, and that's what we are seeing at the moment.
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
- Posts
- 900
This whole 'gota protect the consumer from themselves' (that is what is comes down to when people justify encumbering buyers with obtrusive drm that may even detract from the quality of the game e.g singleplayer lag in diablo, freezing in uplay games, not able to play uplay games when servers went down before offline mode, measurable performance impact compared to the version with the drm removed in several games in the past) is ridiculous.
Fact is that the industry cares only about the numbers produced, not about the quality of service provided, why should I or anybody else care about the success or sustainability of such an industry?
Riddle me that, please.
The world is so fucked up when producing shit is just done for the sake of producing it.
Noone is going to starve or die of disease or be hurt or unhappy or emotionally scarred or miss out on anything if they don't min max their downloaded vs purchased numbers at the cost of quality.
It's the 21st century, we should strive to make the world better in every aspect, not piss on freedoms and quality, even in an industry as insignificant to quality of life as the gaming one.
+ I find the whole bullying and manipulating people into certain behavior aspect that the entire industry reeks of really insulting.
Last edited by Finicky; 24-07-2012 at 05:33 PM.
Wow. I know that anything that isn't math or science (and usually stuff that IS math or science) aren't scientific, but holy crap is this a biased prompt.
Look, if you just want to know "why DRM bad", go to GoG and post this there. You will get more than enough support for your argument.
If you actually want to discuss it and understand it, I suggest not calling your call for discussion "Say why you hate DRM"
DRM is not inherently bad. DRM helps to act like a security blanket for publishers and devs. Think of it this way: Do you lock your door? Someone can kick it down, can't they? But you still lock it, don't you?
DRM is not meant to stop all piracy. It is meant to discourage piracy. The best example would be Securom and MEPC where many pirates actually purchased MEPC because Reloaded and other groups couldn't crack the DRM, and they wanted to play Mass Effect. That stopped 0-day piracy, which boosted sales.
And even a trivial DRM (anything that needs a crack) is enough to keep most computer users at bay. Remember, most people who post on message boards tend to fall closer to "power user" than "Grandma looking at boy-on-boy porn".
As was previously mentioned, it is about finding a balance, and spinning it. Steam has one of the most restrictive models out there, but people don't mind because of all the benefits of Steamworks. UbiDRM, not so much. GoG actually DOES have a DRM model (basically the same one as Gamersgate and Impulse), but they use PR and spin it so people don't mind. There wasn't enough PR in the world to make people like UbiDRM.
In fact, I think the door is the best metaphor. You lock your door, because you want to discourage people from stealing your stuff. If you live in a really bad neighborhood (publishers in Russia and Eastern Europe who aren't CD Projekt), you get some really heavy duty locks. If you live in a "nice" neighborhood (US and Europe), you look weird if you have a shotgun on a string. A dedicated thief/robber/mugger/stalker is going to get in no matter what you do, but most people will be discouraged by trying to turn the knob (or even just seeing the door is closed).
Last edited by gundato; 24-07-2012 at 05:38 PM.Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Posts
- 58
Having said that, not really your rational reasons of being anti-DRM, is it? But thanks anyways! Check out some of the links, you might be interested in them.
Edit: TBH, my bad. My OP and title of thread are a bit contradictory, so please everyone feel free to argue the case for and against DRM.
Locks are of zero benefit to me.
In case that wasn't clear enough: The lock isn't for you, it is for the publisher/dev. I thought I made that clear in the previous post, but I guess I should clarify (plus, I like typing "Jim-Bob").Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Posts
- 58
You should get rid of some of the prejudices you have against certain publishers, and realise that even Ubisoft has managed to provide an unintrusive DRM that enhances the single-player experience. Check out Anno 2070. First of all, always-online DRM with an offline option giving you almost a fully functional product. Note the server downtime is rare, and in such a case you can always use the offline option. However, you miss out on functionality. Persistent upgrades, OP Ark upgrades, community based events and powers, and ofc multiplayer, are just some of the things you miss out on. The thing is, the legit user, only misses out on these things when Uplay servers are down (actually pretty rare), whereas pirates will ALWAYS miss out on these things. I have already personally observed two of my student buddies buy a legit copy of the game due to this.
I do agree with some of your points - that most DRM is there to reduce casual piracy (on top of delaying/preventing initial sales piracy) and has been shown to be pretty effective at this, whilst being unobstrusive.
I mean, the main argument for always-online DRM seems to be that it prevents you from playing the game, whereas the pirated version does not - well, pretty much all of these (including the draconian Ubisoft) have offline option now, negating that point. So why still hate Ubisoft? Is it because of the past?
If I buy a game I should be able to access it. I should be able to back it up. I should be able to play it 10 years from now, whether the original publisher still exists or not. If I can't do those things, it's a rental, not a product I purchased.
So, product prices get paid for games that behave like products, those with no or light/non-intrusive DRM. Rental prices get paid for games that behave like rentals, those where the publisher can "lock the door" at their whim. And, finally, games in the latter category controlled by particularly incompetant/capricious publishers, where the door not only can be locked but frequently is, are worth nothing at all.
In short, I have no interest in arguing the merits of DRM, I care about how it affects me as a customer. The more of a problem it is for me, the less that game is worth, all the way down to zero.
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
- Posts
- 900
Steam takes away your ability to lend discs to other people or sell your games (laws may be changing the latter if we are lucky), but don't forget that the whole DD being non transferable becoming successful was riding mostly on DD being cheaper than Retail.
It was even pitched heavily as such, with claims that lack of shipping and production costs, booklets and in-between-men cuts the prices could be lower. The tradeoff would be not owning a physical copy to sell (and in the case of steam not even a cd key to sell) and people accepted it.
That promise of lower prices has sadly faded over the years (slowly enough for people to accept it and forget about it) Outside of sales steam games are just as expensive as retail ones.
The thing steam gets right about drm is not bothering the user with it.
-You enter your cd key or buy it off steam store and bam it works, it patches automatically and since the initial growing pains many years ago (during which steam rightfully caught a lot of flak!) it's easy and convenient.
-You click a game you haven't played in 3 years and it is already patched for you (try playing battlefield 1942 with a vanilla disc copy and see how long it takes to patch)
-the overlay doesn't pop up unless you ask it to with the hotkeys (hint hint gfwl)
-There are no limited activations, I have had steam installed on about 10 different computers since it was first released, all it does is send me an email with a code the first time it detects a new IP to verify it's actually me playing (account 'hack' protection)
-when my inet disconnects while playing it doesn't affect my singleplayer games
-It lets you mod, add non steam games, add launch parameters and most importantly it lets you move your games and saves freely between hard disks without shitting itself and having to reinstall everything. The latter is a big deal.
-Steam isn't going anywhere and is a private company.
Because another problem with DRM is stability of the host company:
I would not bet a single cent on Uplay games still being functional in 10-15 years. Let alone the securom servers still being there to upload all those packets to keep my sp game functional...
And with the rate at which EA drops mp servers for their games all bets are off wether in 5-10 years their games will still launch or be available for download.
I personally lost my copy of crysis to EADM.
Bought a copy online (activation key), my account pre dated the 'new' eadm account log in system, it accepted and used up the activation key but did not add the game in eadm (or origin today), while it was visible in my account information as activated.
Contacting EA resulted in them telling me I was out of luck as it was too much effort to copy my account to the new system to get my game to work, and that I should ask the shop for a refund (yes they'll refund me after I used the activation key..) or should buy a new copy of crysis.
I've been an eadm user since its launch, it sets a pretty obvious tone for what to expect from them in the future compatibility and support wise.
If you buy a disc copy that shit will never happen (unless it's just a token box and you still have to activate it in some online drm like uplay games for sp or windows 7/office boxes), so again, the host company had better be reliable for people to want to take the risk.
This really need to be the general public's description of DRM locked games, and the price needs to be adjusted.
The value proposition of a game normally includes right of (transferable) and physical ownership (not even getting into things like support for community content in the form of modding) and a game that doesn't have these things should see its price lowered in accordance.
You want to rent a game to me for a limited time as you see fit, with no contract or law to protect me? then I'm not going to pay you for a purchase, I'm going to pay you for a lease.
Last edited by Finicky; 24-07-2012 at 06:09 PM.
Dude, you are asking for opinions, but tainting them with your own (especially with your summary that just asks for anti).
Look, let me explain it this way: I am going to go ask someone about religion. I open by saying "So, are you a stupid dumbass who believes in a higher power?" or by saying "So, are you a satanist heathen who is going to hell?". No matter what happens, I am tainting the results I get.
Issues wrong with your first post:
You summarize it by saying "Say how much you don't like DRM"
You give everyone reading and junk and basically position yourself as "I am starting to accept DRM even though I hate it and it is evil, convince me otherwise"
You are mixing a "literary review" and tweakguides...
Like I said, if you just want to hear why DRM is bad, go to GoG. If you want a proper discussion (which is really the only way to approach crap like this), you don't taint everything in the first post.
It isn't a perfect metaphor :p
I agree that DRM affects how much I am willing to pay for a product (which is why I skip so many Ubi titles), but I just felt it important to explain the rationale FOR DRM, at least from a publisher/dev's point of view.Steam: Gundato
PSN: Gundato
If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.
You know, all this DRM talk is about treating software like physical objects that are manufactured. This is fundamentally wrong, and unethical. Software is like research - progress is unclear, you may need to explore different aproaches, and in the end it may turn out to be much more complicated than you expected. And fail. Games in particular are hard to nail down, they require research-like methodology and the elusive thing - fun. Many games, while technically working and making for good screenshots, are failures in practical terms, because they frustrate, bore or annoy.
Just like with research, once it's done it's trivial to copy and you have to try very hard to stop people from spreading it. This is what DRM is trying to do. But should we try to achieve this ? Copyright wasn't intended as a business model. It was an extension of patent law, intended to encourage inventors (and creators of useful works) to share their invention in exchange for a temporary monopoly. Then it would go to public domain. The fear was that otherwise they would, like Gutenberg, try to destroy their device (!) rather than share it with the rest of the world. On the other hand, the Industrial Revolution only really started when James Watt died, because he was trigerhappy about suing other steam engine constructors. Once he was out of the picture - new, improved designs started popping up like mushrooms after a rain. So there's solid evidence that monopoly and its brother copyright can do a lot of harm. And don't forget the Tolkien estate. They didn't have anything to do with creation of Lord of the Rings, but continue reaping profits from something they haven't made. Why should they ?
Books, movies, even games are a part of our culture. Anyone can take norse or greek myths myths and borrow heavily from it. It's hard to find a fantasy book that is not based on either ancient Greece or Tolkien (any game with a human-size elf is inspired by Tolkien, too). While creators can get away with putting undeniably Tolkienesque elves in games, everyone has to tiptoe around Hobbits or get a cease&desist letter. So we have Halflings, Hoburgs, or Kithkin. But forget about Shire, Ring Wraiths or Moria. Copyright now lasts 70 years after book author's death in EU, and they don't miss any opportunity to extend it. As long as they're making profit from it, they extend copyright for something and it remains locked down.
With zealous copyright like we have today, works (including games) don't enter public domain. They can't serve as an inspiration, at least not directly, they can't be built upon. Look what happened to books about Conan in absence of copyright - tons of authors, better or worse, wrote their stories. A boom of creativity, essentially a modding scene for books. There are countless mods and indie games that have been attacked by lawyers, including Generations mod for Quake 2, King's Quest 9 (The Silver Lining), the imperial trooper for TF2, or twenty Battlestar Galactica mods. And that's not all - think of all the mods that aren't made because someone leaves in fear of lawyers.
So, it's time to address the "but artists need to eat !" fallacy.
First, it's not like artists and game developers are earning much in the current, 20 century system. They're mistreated, assigned stupid deadlines, replaced like cogs, working crunch and overtime. People are often fired when a game is completed, which is especially damaging because programming and game development in general is very complex and takes a lot of experience to become good at.
Second, creators were getting paid before the introduction of copyright. Bach, Mozart, Michangelo are all pretty good. People like them either had quasi-permanent sponsors, or were paid on a per-work basis. For example Mozart was paid for the creation (research !) of a new work. Of course, there were people who weren't paid. They must be excused because they were doing that because they enjoyed it.
Why did I say that selling "pieces" of software is unethical ? Kids understand this intuitively, and have to be "taught" the "proper" way by parents and teachers. Because only the research process takes effort. Copying software doesn't. So why should people be paid not for creation, but for... how do you call it ? I can copy it myself, you don't need to hold my hand. You could say "the company pays the developers using money from sales". But game devs don't retain any right to something they worked on ! They work on a monthly salary. The development of a game is paid not by sales of the game, but by something else - an investor, or profits from a previous game. Because Diablo 2 was very well received, it allowed Blizzard to take 10 years and produce Diablo 3. Not to mention Diablo 3 sold so well because it was a sequel to the cult game.
That's why I'm very happy that Kickstarter showed up. It is much closer to the grant model from the past centuries. It's not perfect, and seems to require either a lot of fame or a convincing prototype - but it's the right way to go. Money is paid up front, everyone knows what he's paying for, so you don't have to pay for Diablo 3 by buying Diablo 2. And here's the kicker: it doesn't matter how much Wasteland 2 is pirated, it has already paid for itself. Anything on top of those $3,000,000 is just icing on the cake. This model is very much immune to piracy, it makes piracy moot, and they could as well release it for free. I backed the project just to be perverse.
Thanks to the 2 people who read this far :-).pass
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
- Posts
- 58
@Finicky: Nice post. Thanks.
There are some counter-points, though, not really relevant to my objective of finding out why you object to DRM.
Pricing of games: You are neglecting inflation and increased cost of production (more expensive credit due to financial crisis, more advanced rendering/development with new AAA titles).
Stabiltity of publishers: Many of them state that in the event of bankruptcy, they have a patch (non-DRM) they are ready to go live with, in terms of TAGES (ANno 2070) or Securom (Batman games), but your point is entirely valid if GWFL (Microsoft) or Uplay (Ubi) go out of business.
Steam: It is great. I love it. It does not, however, in any way prevent zero-day piracy which others have shown to do. If your game is not Steam exclusive, you still need to provide non-Steam authentication for say the hard-copy market, necessitating things like GFWL and Uplay. Also, there is a true risk involved for the consumer if there is a monopoly, so it is in our benefit to have multiple digital distributors.
That's to say nothing of the likelihood of authentication servers being shut off while the company is still in business, of course.
Last edited by vinraith; 24-07-2012 at 06:34 PM.
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Canada
- Posts
- 456
The problem with DRM is that it's a declaration by publishers that their profits are more important to them than customer satisfaction. DRM is basically an exercise to push customers as far as possible without discouraging sales.
Given an alternative with fewer hassles, I'd take it. I gravitate toward the best overall customer service.
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
- Posts
- 900
@borsuk, you mean like books? Your argument makes little sense since books don't require a blood and stool sample and and a goat sacrifice to open (this isn't harry potter with a magical lock)
You confuse drm with artistic copyright it seems, pirates don't copy game ideas to sell them in their own product. (hence books and cds being easily copied and not a license you rent -unless you use itunes)
Ironically gaming is the industry with the most copying of artistic and creative ideas... copyrighting an IP is meaningless if it's just a name, there are tons of clones of movies and games where a cat is called a horse but is still a cat.
Thank fuck that you can't patent in the gaming industry yet like you can in the hardware industry (not that apple and Co aren't doing their best with patenting the 500 year old slide lock on doors) .
Imagine a world where concepts like netcode, strafejumping, rpg elements etc were patented and in the hands on EA or ubisoft...
@ gundato: the op is clearly making a very PRO drm argument and challenging the reader to counter argue, reading comprehension man and less passive agressiveness.
@asking about why we distrust ubisoft :Because they can't just earn trust by undoing some of their biggest wrongs?
Ubi are THE company that has done nothing but test the waters for what they can get away with in exploiting the consumer, just because they crossed the line too far and had to backpedal a bit because even the masses caught on doesn't mean their intentions are more pure.
This cultural shift away from values like quality, goodwill and trust to not giving a shit about circumstances as long as the results are there even from consumer perspective BAFFLES me,what on earth is wrong with people, such a selfish narrow sighted unable to think ahead society.
Does intent really not count for anything any more?
Extreme ubisoft analogy for the lols and to get a rise out of some people, please don't latch on to it, I just want to spew some bile at ubisoft : you wouldn't let a child molestor babysit your kids just because he hasn't raped in a few months and there's a cop in the other room and for today he isn't that likely to fondle your child so why not give him another chance, the liplicking he was doing as your toddler walked in was just a coincidence. He even offered to take you all to a day at the park and have a picnic to reconcile your "differences" on the topic of fondling kids. He really just does what he has to to be happy.
This is the kind of naivety you display when you defend ubisoft or EA or MS. (and many others)
@rojimboo: ubi or ea or whoever don't have to go out of business to stop supporting their games.
This has been shown plenty of times by online MM being shut down for games less than 2 years old (ea sports series among many).
They have a marketing dept. for these things, a free pass to do whatever they want as long as there is no explicit law to prevent it and they can provide a spin to it and play the pity card.
After all the shit these companies have pulled it is pretty obvious that the gaming audience is one that will turn the other cheek over and over as long as you have some new baubels to dangle in front of them.
There also isn't a monopoly, there is GOG (no drm) and the many retail chains with their own DD service and there are independant developers and there is the good ol' normal retail cd key way to sell games to fall back on.
You can't seriously think that in the world's biggest ME TOO, ME TOO! business there would ever be a monopoly for games distribution,right?
Noone is arguing for a steam monopoly or even that steam is better than retail or no drm, we are arguing against numbers over quality DRM.
And there we go, Djbriandamage summarised in one sentence why DRM is fundamentally wrong.
Last edited by Finicky; 24-07-2012 at 06:55 PM.
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Posts
- 4,090
Two fairly simple reasons:
1) It doesn't work
Almost every game still gets pirated (not Diablo 3, which is interesting, but that's a different argument). There was a time when we had 'casual' piracy, kids trading copied DVDs/CDs/cassettes in the playground. Or adults doing it at work. DRM that prevented copying by the average user had some sort of use. But the industry persisted with this sort of DRM even after that all but dried up. People don't do that any more. They use torrent sites (or in some countries, buy discs burnt from copies got from torrent sites). If you check any torrent site, pretty much all the games are on there. Most of them require copying a single crack file over to make them work. That's not advanced computing. If you're smart enough to use a torrent file, you're smart enough to use a crack, especially as said crack will be packaged with the torrent file along with instructions for using it.
2) It inconveniences legitimate customers
Needing to always be online, or always online to start, or online to register, is an inconvenience. The amount of that inconvenience will depend on your circumstances, but inarguably is.
Now, neither of those two arguments are sufficient alone. If the DRM doesn't work but doesn't bother legit consumers at all, it's harmless and benign. If the DRM works but does inconvenience legitimate consumers, then you're trading-off customer goodwill against stopping pirates. Which matters more is down to you as a publisher. Us consumers may hate it, but an argument can be made.
But 99.9% of DRM falls into both categories: it doesn't work and it annoys the legit user. In which case it's utterly worthless.


text:
A vibrant pattern of red and white stripes can add fashionable flair to your home decor. The piece comes with a contemporary lamp base in a brushed steel finish. The design is on an opaque giclee style fabric, which blocks illumination coming through the shade, focusing the light throw up and down. This shade design is custom made-to-order. On/off pull chain. U.S. Patent # 7,347,593.
Offering hundreds of color and pattern options, Giclee Gallery designs are crafted with high quality canvas. The opaque material directs the light throw up and down for a more focused effect. Giclee Gallery lamp shades are crafted using the same state-of-the-art printers that are used for fine art reproductions. To ensure longevity, each shade is printed with fade-resistant, 100-year archival quality inks. Featuring many patterns from exclusive artistic creations, including some based on hand-painted originals. Custom made to order, and ideal for residential and commercial applications.
Our team has over 100 years combined experience with contemporary lighting.
Every EuroStyleLighting.com order is backed by our 100% Satisfaction Pledge.
Shipping and Delivery Information - For item EU60757-23189 if ordered by 1 pm Pacific Time

subset: commoncrawl


text:
MomDoc, Arizona's women's healthcare leader, announced that Westridge OB/GYN will be joining MomDoc May 1, 2013 in an effort to enhance the growing needs of healthcare in the West Valley.
"We are very pleased that Westridge, OB/GYN is joining MomDoc . All at MomDoc welcome all with Westridge, OB/GYN. Uniting will create expanded care for women in the Estrella area and we are glad to be part of that growth," said Nick Goodman, MomDoc CEO.
Both MomDoc and Westridge have strong reputations of providing high quality care to patients. "Both Dr. Gallai and Dr. Boyce are highly regarded by their patients. We are happy to have both of these fine physicians join MomDoc" added Goodman.
Dr. Lorenzo Boyce, FACOG, has been on the West side since 1993 and Dr. Robert Gallai, FACOG since 1994. Dr. Boyce moved to Phoenix from the Chicago area and Dr. Gallai from Canada.
Some MomDoc providers will move to the Westridge office. Westridge, OB/GYN will continue to practice and in shared space MomDoc Women for Women will provide care.
Patients will see little change in care initially, followed by gradual improvements. Services at Westridge will remain the same other than additional staff to handle patient needs. MomDoc will move its existing Estrella office to the Westridge building. The site will continue to provide multi-lingual care. Westridge OB/GYN is located at 8410 West Thomas, Rd. in Phoenix.
MomDoc is recognized in Arizona for its six practices with fifteen offices. Under the MomDoc umbrella are Drs. Goodman and Partridge, OB/GYN in the valley for over thirty years; MomDoc Women for Women, a practice with all female providers; Healthy Pregnancy Perinatology, specializing in high risk pregnancy; Mi Doctora, a fully Spanish speaking women's healthcare practice; MomDoc Midwives, where midwives provide excellent hospital based deliveries; and SHE, Sexual Health Experts, unique to Arizona, featuring an emphasis on women's sexual health.


text:
Place beans, sauerkraut, red onion and red pepper in a mixing bowl. Whisk together the vinaigrette ingredients and pour over the salad. Toss to mix. Refrigerate for 1 hour before serving. Place in a serving bowl.
Per serving - 200 calories, 10 gram fat (43% calories from fat), 8 gram protein, 22 gram carbohydrate, 8 gram fiber, 0 milligram cholesterol, 169 milligram sodium


text:
Editorial: Losing with class
Published: Saturday, January 5, 2013 at 6:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Friday, January 4, 2013 at 11:34 p.m.
The Gators surpassed expectations this football season, so it's unfortunate the way it ended.
It's not that Florida lost its final game. In every game, somebody wins and somebody loses.
No, it's the way the Gators lost that raises cause for concern. At the very least it indicates that this up-and-coming team is badly in need of an attitude adjustment before its players take the field again next season.
Nobody predicted that the Gators' season would be so spectacular. After ranking 23rd in preseason polls, the Gators had just one regular season loss and finished with a resounding victory against the archrival Seminoles.
Losing against Louisville in the Sugar Bowl still means the Gators finished with a commendable 11-2 record. But undisciplined play in the game revealed problems that must be addressed.
A low point was the onside kick during which Gator players committed two personal fouls and one was ejected.
The Gators committed 16 personal fouls, three unsportsmanlike conduct penalties and three roughing the passer penalties during the season, according to a tally by Sun sports reporter Kevin Brockway. Those numbers reflect poorly on the team.
Defensive players who celebrate after big hits, even when the team is down by a significant margin, do the same. But criticism has to start with head coach Will Muschamp, whose sideline tirades set an unfortunate tone.
The Gators should be lauded for the season, but must resolve to better represent the University of Florida with their behavior on the field.
The old saying still goes: It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


text: Presenting for your consideration this fantastic Chunky Oak Console Table. Carefully hand crafted by experts from around the world this table has been made from solid oak. This collection brings contemporary style oak with internal pine in a range of items for living and dining. Finished with a durable double wax finish for peace of mind on a day-to-day basis.If this isn't exactly what you require, we offer a bespoke service that's sure to give you the furniture you desire


text:
• necropolis •
Pronunciation: nê-krah-pê-lês • Hear it!
Part of Speech: Noun
Meaning: 1. A large cemetery in or near a city. 2. An ancient or prehistoric burial ground, especially one with large, elaborate tombs.
Notes: The common English words for a burial ground are graveyard or cemetery. An especially large or ancient cemetery is a necropolis. The meaning of the adjective accompanying this word, necropolitan, has expanded from "concerning necropolises" to "mournful, funereal". We find many words in English containing the first constituent of this Greek compound: necropsy "autopsy of an animal", necrophilia "love for dead things", necrosis "death of tissue", necrolatry "worship of the dead".
In Play: The contemporary sense of today's Good Word generally refers to a special cemetery of some sort, either large or otherwise important: "Bernard wasn't buried in a cemetery, but in a necropolis near Los Angeles filled with the bodies of the rich and famous." However, this word is most often used in reference to a very old, usually abandoned cemetery: "Mary Chase finally discovered Aztec gold in an unexplored necropolis in Mexico."
Word History: Today's word was a Greek compound made out of nekros "dead" + polis "city", in other words, "city of the dead". Greek inherited the root of nekros from Proto-Indo-European nek- "dead, death", which appears in several borrowed English words. Innocuous and innocent, negatives of nocuous and nocent, both meaning "harmful". An unlikely word coming across the millennia to English is nectar from Greek nektar "drink of the gods". The Greek word was made up of PIE words nek- "death" + ter- "to overcome", since the drink of gods could help the drinker overcome death. (Let's all raise a glass of nectar to Jackie Strauss, wishing her a long life in which to continue sending us excellent Good Words like today's.)


text:
Muck-monster at work — briefly — on Orange Lake
Published: Monday, October 8, 2012 at 3:11 p.m.
Last Modified: Monday, October 8, 2012 at 3:11 p.m.
Dan Sheehan moved to the shores of Orange Lake from Hollywood about a year ago.
Photo Galleries
He said he knew it would be a good and relatively inexpensive place to live. And, the retiree said, "I figured I could go fishing here … and the lake dried up."
By early summer at the end of a long drought, Orange Lake hit record lows. At Heagy-Burry Park on the lake's southwest side, it shrank to a trickle and disappeared, leaving behind dead fish and a forest of man-sized weeds.
On Monday morning, Sheehan stood against the wooden fence at the park and watched a muck- and weed-spewing machine shred vegetation around the boat ramp — a promising sign that he might get to do some fishing after all.
"I'm glad to see this, though, real glad," Sheehan said.
In recent months — and especially since the deluge brought by Tropical Storm Debby in June — rainfall totals have been up. In May through September, the Gainesville airport measured 13.84 inches more rain than normal.
On Sept. 18, Orange Lake had risen to 49.75 feet above sea level, which was still well below its average of 56.21 for September, St. Johns River Water Management District spokesman Hank Largin said in an email.
The cutter/shredder — a boat equipped with large, spinning blades on the front — nosed its way into weeds and floating vegetation. It sent the shreds of plants and globs of muck flying to the right and left.
The debris will settle to the bottom, break down and oxidize, said Ryan Hamm, an invasive plant management biologist for the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. He said the vegetation will be cleared around the boat ramp and adjacent fishing pier and in a 50-foot-wide channel out to open water.
The work, which had been expected to take about a week, was interrupted later Monday. FWC spokeswoman Karen Parker said a "glitch" had arisen over the hourly contract with A&L Aquatic Weed Control of Citra.
She didn't know when the work would resumed. It is intended to improve access for boaters.
"If they want to recreate on the lake — either fishing or boating — they'll have much easier access to open water," Parker said.
It isn't clear just when the view from Heagy-Burry Park will be back to normal.
"How long it takes lakes to rebound varies — there's no set time," said Largin of the water district, "but it was very dry over a long period, and Orange Lake was at record low levels."
Chester Catterton — owner of A&L Aquatic Weed Control in Citra — watched from the bank as his company's machine did its work Monday morning.
"I think the water levels are picking up across the state," he said. "(There's) a very good possibility we'll be doing similar work across the state."
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


text:
PEARLAND, Texas - A man has been sentenced to life in prison for killing a high school classmate in Pearland.
Hermilo Moralez, 21, was found guilty of murder on Tuesday. He had confessed to the killing.
Joshua Wilkerson, 18, was found dead in a field along FM 518 near FM 521 in November 2010.
"He was located in a heavily overgrown field with medium- to large-sized trees and waist-high and higher brush," Lt. Onesimo Lopez said. "It was not a location that was easily found."
Moralez, who was 19 at the time, led officers to Wilkerson's body, police said.
Investigators said Moralez told them that he beat Wilkerson unconscious with a piece of wood at his father's home. When Wilkerson's body was found, his hands and feet were tied and he was partially burned, police said.
Moralez knew Wilkerson for about five years and Wilkerson often gave him a ride home from school, officials said. They were classmates at the Pearland Independent School District's PACE Center.
Copyright 2013 by Click2Houston.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


text:
Ship Date: Approximately 2 weeks Details >
Reviewed by 4 customers
Comments about PBS NOVA: Secrets Beneath the Ice DVD:
This is a great movie. It shows the challenges and successes of geologic research and how it can be applied to climate research. NOVA movies are great because they have a nice balance between science and flash. They are filmed and edited so differently than the National Geographic, etc. type movies which are annoying to watch on DVD because of all the lead-out/lead-in repetition before and after the commercials.
I show this movie in my Historical Geology class.
Comments about PBS NOVA: Secrets Beneath the Ice DVD:
Very good video, I have been to Antarctica and seen some of these projects.
Comments about PBS NOVA: Secrets Beneath the Ice DVD:
In response to the earlier review, please do not confuse core samples with the earth's core. It is not currently possible to drill through the crust, let alone "below the core". If you actually pay attention to this video, you will learn a lot about the Earth's climate history, as well as idea's for the future and what could be in store. If you are blinded by fairy tales, don't try to confuse others because of your ignorance.
Comments about PBS NOVA: Secrets Beneath the Ice DVD:
The earth is not billions of years old but thousands of years old. if it was billions their would be more than what found beneath the earths core. The core that was taken was a part of history yes, but it was buried for way less then billions. My head was throbbing with questions why billions and not thousands. why not talk about how this was changed by thousands of years not billions. I dont mean this in a bad way at all. I am a christian that believes in thousands of years in the making. Their was man during dinosaurs time. I am glad that you talked about the core beneath the earth. I am very proud with that. Thanks for taking the time and talking about Secrets Beneath the Ice,
thank you Pbs.
Kman (Usa)


text:
There's been hearing increasing chatter lately that, if you're shorting stocks now, you're late to the game. That does hold true in some cases. For instance, I'm not interested in shorting Apple (AAPL) now after a 25% decline. However, plenty of compelling short setups remain that could offer more downside in coming weeks.
Sure, the market is oversold and will probably bounce at some point between now and the end of the year, but the move most likely won't amount to much more than a short-term tradable rally. A lot of technical damage has been done that will take more time to repair. The three-year-plus bull market is long in the tooth, and new leadership needs more time to come into focus.
In an environment like this, it makes sense to continue looking for profit opportunities on the downside.
When building a list of short ideas, you should focus on growth stocks that have already made huge price runs. There are plenty to choose from, among them Priceline.com (PCLN), Ulta Beauty (ULTA), Lululemon Athletica (LULU) and Under Armour (UA).
Of these, the one that looks most vulnerable is Priceline. The stock has risen more than 1,200% since October 2008 -- and, more recently, the stock has seen a series of lower highs and a dry-up in buying demand. These point toward a stock that could be ready to pay a visit to its last breakout area around $553.
Shares of Priceline gapped up Nov. 2 on strong earnings, but the enthusiasm was short-lived as sellers came into the stock. After early strength, it finished near its session low in heavy volume. Sellers have been in Priceline ever since, and it is starting to meet with resistance at its 40-week moving average. This looks like a ceiling for now. I'm not seeing unequivocal signs of institutional selling in Priceline yet, but it looks like a tired stock.
It's been said in the past that fundamentals often look the best at or near a top. From this perspective, Priceline's earnings prospects still look pretty good, but sales growth has been decelerating in recent quarters and continued weakness in Europe in 2013 could weigh on results going forward. Clearly the company is looking for new growth opportunities, as evidenced by its recent deal to buy Kayak (KYAK). Part of Priceline's recent weakness is due to concerns about slowing growth in coming quarters. These concerns are legitimate ones.
A quick market rally could see the stock rise to its 40-week moving average around $648, but I suspect this level will ultimately be a significant resistance area. All great price runs eventually come to an end, and this could be happening now with Priceline.
When a new market uptrend begins in earnest, former leaders like these will likely be left behind, replaced by a new crop of leaders still in the early stages of growth.
Ken Shreve got his start in the financial markets with Investor's Business Daily (IBD). He spent over 10 years as an editor and columnist for IBD and its website Investors.com. He also acted as the Investors.com "Market Wrap" anchor and presented IBD investing workshops and seminars nationwide. He continues to provide market commentary on national radio and has appeared on CNBC. He now writes Ultimate Growth Stocks, a weekly newsletter at TFNN and hosts Breakout Investing, Monday through Friday from 3 to 4 p.m. PST. Learn more at www.kenshreve.com.


text:
Centura Health has more experts in more places throughout the region. Start your health journey by finding the right one for you.
Centura Health has a tremendous foundation of health care facilities and organizations, along with 15,800+ highly committed, mission-centered professionals who share our ministry and are guided by our mission to extend the healing Ministry of Christ by caring for those who are ill and by nurturing the health of the people in our communities.
At Penrose-St. Francis Health Services and across Centura, health care is not merely a business. It's a calling. We celebrate the value of each person's life by lovingly offering care to people regardless of who they are, what they believe or where they're from. We seek to combine finely honed medical skills with a compassionate touch to care for the whole person, body, mind and spirit. In this manner, we strive to create healing sanctuaries that carry on the ministry of Jesus Christ.
In 1996 our sponsors, Catholic Health Initiatives (CHI) and the Adventist Health System (AHS), came together to form Centura Health in Denver, Colo. Committed to the mission of extending the healing ministry of Christ, CHI and AHS each build upon their unique history, heritage and traditions to create a faith-based entity designed to advance the mission of their individual organizations. Both sponsors have preserved a commitment to their values and an understanding of the vital role that ministering to spiritual needs can play in health care.
We extend the healing ministry of Christ by caring for those who are ill and by nurturing the health of the people in our communities.
Centura Health will fulfill a covenant of caring for our communities with excellence and integrity to become their partner for life.
In serving our customers, their families and each other, we will:
In working with each other, we will:
In all of our interactions, we will:
In honoring the missions, ministries, and heritages of our Catholic and our Adventist sponsors, we will:
In managing the natural, human, and financial resources to which we have been entrusted, we will:
In seeking to grow our ministry, we will:
In all we do, we will:
Our search tools require a zip code to match the location nearest you.


text:
Welcome to the Eating Disorder Center of California
Day Treatment and Intensive Outpatient Programs
In today's society where what you weigh often seems more important than who you are, the preoccupation with food and one's body can be overwhelming. Daily activities, relationships and one's hope for the future can all begin to suffer under the weight of these worries. Many of us at the EDCC have walked the path of recovery ourselves and we know that even with hard work and the best intentions, these problems can be hard to tackle single-handedly. We believe that a supportive environment and a connected community can help people to learn and blossom and encourages people beyond what they could have done alone.
We know well that each person's eating disorder is different. Accordingly, we do not subscribe to a 'one-size-fits-all' version of recovery. We at the EDCC pride ourselves on working with each client to understand the specific things that have fueled the disorder and to help them discover their unique vision of their future.


text:
Lakeland, Fla. (November 4, 2006) - The Saint Leo University volleyball team (21-10, 8-8- SSC) was swept by the eighth-ranked Florida Southern College Moccasins (30-4, 15-1 SSC) on Saturday night in the regular season finale for both teams. With the win Southern grabbed a share of the Sunshine State Conference title with Tampa, as the Mocs won by game scores of 30-28, 30-21, 30-22.
Both teams will now await the announcement of the field for the 2006 NCAA Division II National Championships. The regional selections are set to be announced Sunday night at 10:00 p.m. at NCAASports.com. Eight teams from the South Region will be selected, and Saint Leo was tied for fourth in the latest poll (Nov. 1).
Saint Leo's historic season included setting a new program record for wins in a single season, and a pair of tournament victories (Valdosta State & Bentley).
Sophomore middle blocker Emily Frey (Mason, Ohio) led the Lions on Saturday, as she totaled 10 kills and hit .455. However the FSC trio of Beverly Stasis, Leinani Bernabe and Danielle Durham all had double-digit kills to help the home team celebrate a Co-Conference Championship.


text:
Hey there, time traveller!
This article was published 26/6/2013 (1516 days ago), so information in it may no longer be current.
You didn't really think TV was going to give you the summer off, did you?
Long gone are the days when television was a fall-to-spring affair, with a rigidly defined prime-time season followed by three months of reruns, reality-TV filler and burnoffs of leftover episodes of shows cancelled during the September-to-May schedule.
These days, TV networks introduce new programs throughout the year, as traditional broadcast networks struggle to keep pace with the quantity and quality of shows being produced for the growing number of specialty channels active in the original-series production business.
And what that means is that some top-notch dramas and comedies are being introduced during what used to be TV's fallow period -- including this week's premi®re of the new made-for-cable drama Ray Donovan, one of the most compelling and complex thrillers to arrive on premium cable in the last decade.
Ray Donovan, produced for U.S. cable's Showtime network, is an intense, mature and meticulously crafted drama that focuses on the controversial career and conflicted personal life of Ray (Liev Schreiber), a ruthlessly efficient Hollywood "fixer" who's the go-to guy for celebrities, movie producers, pro athletes and show-business moguls when scandals and criminal misdeeds create problems in their high-profile lives.
A product of a mean-streets Boston upbringing, Ray has moved his family -- wife Abby (Paula Malcomson) and kids Bridget and Conor (Kerris Dorsey, Devon Bagby), along with brothers Terry (Eddie Marsan) and Bunchy (Dash Mihok) -- to the West Coast to get as far away as possible from his father, Mickey (Jon Voight), an abusive and manipulative low-level Irish mobster currently serving a 25-year stretch for murder.
When the series opens, it's business as usual in Hollywood -- which, for Ray, means cleaning up the messes created when a married NBA star awakens alongside the cocaine-overdosed corpse of a young woman in a hotel room, and a macho male movie star is arrested with a transvestite hooker just a couple of days before his latest $200-million action thriller is set to open.
Neither presents all that much of a challenge for Ray and his crew -- in fact, it only takes him a couple of minutes to figure out a way to solve both problems at the same time. He's very good at what he does, and his clients -- most notably power-broker lawyers Ezra Goldman (Elliott Gould) and Lee Drexler (Peter Jacobson) -- compensate him well for his efforts.
When it comes to handling the various compounding crises in his personal life, however, Donovan might be out of his depth. Abby, who has seemingly forgotten their working-class Southie roots, is pressuring him to move the family to Beverly Hills and get the kids into ultra-exclusive private schools; meanwhile, brother Terry -- a former boxer who's struggling with Parkinson's disease as a result of too many blows to the head -- delivers an emotional haymaker when he informs Ray that the old man, whom they assumed had five more years to serve, has just been paroled and could be headed for L.A.
By the time the first episode is complete, it's clear that the Donovan family -- despite Ray's best efforts -- is about to be reunited.
And in so doing, Ray Donovan's writers set up the most compelling, conflicted, venomous and hate-fuelled parent/child relationship since Tony (James Gandolfini) sparred with passive-aggressive mom Livia (Nancy Marchand) in the first two seasons of The Sopranos.
Schreiber is tremendous -- in a taciturn, tightly wound fashion -- in the title role, but it's Voight, as the clan's pure-evil patriarch, who elevates Ray Donovan and makes it a series that should not and cannot be missed.
Dense, dark, menacing and magnificent, Ray Donovan is a show that deserves to draw a big crowd, and might soon provide a whole lot of people with a very easy answer when they're asked the inevitable post-Labour Day question: "So, what did you do this summer?"
firstname.lastname@example.com Twitter: @BradOswald


text:
The manager of the Co-op in Bovingdon stole more than £33,000 from the store.
Jacqueline Lloyd, 50, of Marlins Turn, Hemel Hempstead, was responsible for the weekly banking and used her knowledge of the system to steal the money over a 20 month period.
St Albans Crown Court heard on Friday that Lloyd began stealing the money when faced with massive debts.
She would pay the money from the store into the bank as she was supposed to do, but then unknown to her bosses would arrange for the money to go back.
Her offending was discovered when Co-op investigators looking through accounting records, noticed that "more and more money" appeared to be being held in the store's safe.
The offence covered a period from September 2009 up until May 2011 and Lloyd pleaded guilty to one charge of theft.
Isabel Delamere prosecuting, said it had been calculated that Lloyd stole £33,240 over many months.
Lloyd was immediately suspended and was arrested in May of last year.
After claiming anyone at the store could have taken the money, Lloyd eventually admitted her guilt and it emerged she was in masses of debt following the breakup of her marriage.
Rob Ward defending, said Lloyd's offending was a serious breach of trust.
He said she had worked for Co op for 15 years and worked her way up the ladder to become a store manager.
Judge Martin Griffith sentenced Lloyd to 16 months jail suspended for 12 months and placed her on supervision for a year.
She was also ordered to perform 125 hours of unpaid work.
Investigations are to be carried out into a pension fund of £30,000 Lloyd built up during her time with the Co op to see if it can be used to pay compensation to the company.


text:
DETROIT - Ron Cipriano, representing the Cipriano and Trahan families, reissued a statement on Friday after Mitchell Young was found guilty on all charges including murder in the 2012 deadly baseball bat beatings at the Cipriano Farmington Hills home.
Read: Mitchell Young guilty of murder in Cipriano family attacks
Tucker Cipriano pleaded no contest earlier this month to felony murder. The beatings killed Tucker's father, Bob Cipriano, and severely injured his mother and younger brother.
Read: Tucker Cipriano pleads no contest to felony murder
Ron Cipriano issued the below statement on the families' behalf:
We are glad the trial is over and that our family did not have to re-live the horrible experience by having to testify in it.
We believe the legal process worked the way it should have with the facts of the case presented. The privacy and dignity of my brother's family was respected and honored.
No verdict could bring closure to this for our family; it is a part of our everyday reality. There is never closure in a situation like this. It merely closes this chapter and lets us focus everything we have on the continued healing of our family physically, mentally and emotionally.
It has been a long and difficult 14 months for our family and we would not have made it through so far without the tremendous support of so many people.
We would like to thank the Farmington Hills Police Department, the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office and all the cooperating agencies for their hard work on the case. We would especially like to thank Cindy Stanton in the Office of Victim Services for all her help during the past year.
We would also like to thank the press for respecting our privacy throughout this trial and the last 14 months, as well as into the future.
Our family has been through a horrible tragedy that we will live with for the rest of our lives. At the end of the day, Bob - our brother, father, neighbor, colleague, coach and friend - is still gone from our lives forever. His absence can never be replaced and no trial will ever change that.
Copyright 2013 by ClickOnDetroit.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.