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The Tesla Model S Controversy: Understanding the Effects of Temperature on Electric Vehicle Efficiency and Rangeby Vivek Gowri on 2/18/2013 4:22 PM EST
- Posted in
- Electric Vehicles
- Tesla Model S
- Nissan Leaf
- Auto
100 Comments
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tipoo - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThey really are the single bottleneck on an incredibly wide spectrum of things, aren't they? From cell phones to being able to wean ourselves off gasoline. Reply
JlHADJOE - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkUnfortunately they're the best we currently have.
Lithium Ion is certainly miles better than when we were using NiCD or NiMH. Reply
JPForums - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkWell, there are other options. Silver Zinc (AgZn) batteries are safer than Lithium ION / Polymer as they contain no hazardous materials and don't suffer from thermal runaway. Note: Older Silver Oxide cells contain small amounts of mercury.
With lithium based batteries, you have to trade off specific energy (Wh/Kg), energy density (Wh/L), and maximum discharge rate. While advanced Lithium technologies might allow them to achieve higher specific energy or energy density than AgZn, they often come at the expense of each other. For instance, Li-Polymer has higher specific energy than Li-ION, but it also has lower energy density and discharge rate. You would have to use more packs in parallel to achieve the discharge rates of Li-ION or AgZn. They also have a more limited life, even when they aren't in use.
AgZn also has to make tradeoffs, but as less work has been put into them vs lithium, the characteristics don't vary nearly as much. Looking at the overall characteristics of any single AgZn cell paints a much more impressive picture when compared to a single Lithium based cell.
Of course, there are still barriers to entry. AgZn has lower cycle durability. Seeing as Li-ION managed to increase their cycle durability from several hundred cycles to over 1200 cycles, I'd expect AgZn could overcome this with a little work. The largest barrier to entry is most certainly cost. Don't know if there is much we can do about it either. Still, if research can improve AgZn by the amounts that it has improved Lithium based cells, they may become worth the cost. Reply
JPForums - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkAlso note Silver Zinc > Silver Oxide. Reply
Gokimoki - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkOr forget batteries entirely and go for ultra capacitors. We really need to start pumping in the same kind of r&d funding that li-ion gets into UC's. That would pretty much solve issues with EVs. You'll never get the same energy density as batteries, but being able to recharge in seconds to minutes, weigh MUCH less (partially negating the lower energy density), no toxic components, and virtually unlimited (100 000+) charge-discharge cycles more than make up for it. Reply
Daniel Egger - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - link> You'll never get the same energy density as batteries, but being able to recharge in seconds to minutes
You forgot to mention the fact that there's close to zero infrastructure available where you can actually consume that kind of necessary energy to charge in "seconds to minutes". If it was you'd still have the problem that no power grid operator is going to allow these duty cycles. Plus the cables would be massive and the safety mechanisms ridiculously hard to implement. If they'd finally manage to get the range up to the needed levels that would be even harder to do. Will we see single digit minute charges? Possibly. Seconds? Never ever.
That's exactly the reason why I think battery driven EVs are never going to go mainstream. Reply
greevar - Friday, February 22, 2013 - linkYou're right. The grid, as it exists, will not support UC powered cars, but that's not a valid reason to dismiss the idea. The power grid is already an outdated design in need of a change; it might be worth making changes that support new power grid topographies and consumption. Reply
Rasterman - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkTotally false, "stations" could simply have their own ultracaps that are charged overnight or a long period, or some other method of storing a lot of energy, molten salt, giant flywheels, etc.
Getting the energy to the car is only an engineering problem. Drive over an automated plug, station detects you are there and automatically debits your card and moves a coupler 4" to mate with the bottom of your car, which feeds directly into your battery, and offloads kJ of energy in seconds. The interface can be whatever is needed, a 5" connector is needed? No problem, its 100% automated and 100% safe.
After electric cars are mainstream trickle chargers can be installed in or on the sides of roads, no physical contact is required, but would probably be more efficient. Thus you would NEVER have to stop and recharge.
The possibilities are endless, anything can be done. Reply
greevar - Monday, February 25, 2013 - linkLike I said, "as it exists". Reply
ikkai - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - linkHello, I totally agree with you. A recent breakthrough on super capacitors is exactly what is on your mind and it will definitely change our everyday lives. Here is a video explaining the technology http://youtu.be/OtM6XJlynkk
For those who prefer to just read :), a new carbon based energy storage capacity dubbed as "super supercapacitors" can obtain the same energy density as li-ion batteries while having 100,000+ refill cycles, under a minute charge durations and everything else capacitors are good at.
This thing is like a miracle, they produce it by using normal DVD burners! You can even dispose it by using it as fertilizer for plants! If you got hyped up, continue to read at here (extremetech article): http://bit.ly/w6C0rY
p.s. By the way, thanks to the author of the article :) Reply
Wolfpup - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkAre they? Lithium ages even if it's not being used. I'd feel more comfortable with a NiMH battery pack in a vehicle like the Prius than with Lithium.
What happened to super capacitors? Reply
Exodite - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link25-100% increased power usage at a mere -11C?
I guess there's a reason no one here (northern Sweden) particularly fancies EVs. I shudder to think what the fuel economy would be like at -40C. Reply
Kjella - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkNo, 20F = -6.7C so it's worse than that. Also I would assume this is the battery charge when they're new. I'd sure like to see tests on a 5-10 year old battery to see how reduced capacity and high drain go together. I suspect it would not be pretty.
Here in Norway you get massive advantages from buying an EV (no one-time fee, no yearly fee, free toll roads, ride the bus lane, publicly sponsored charging stations) which is the only reason they've managed to sell a few thousand. Reply
Exodite - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkYeah, I calculated from 20 rather than from 12. My bad. :(
I could see EVs being used for something like inner-city taxi services in the southern end of the country but generally speaking both Norway, Sweden and Finland suffer from the same concerns here... cold climate and long distances.
I'd rather see a quicker push into fully synthetic diesel solutions for us. Reply
elmicker - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link"the previous Top Gear vs. Tesla, which was an outright sham"
Well, that's a libel. Reply
jonup - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkSo was the lawsuit.
What is so special about Model S? It's fugly and it feels like made in a shed. (I've been in one and it felt cheap.) Doesn't even stand a chance next to Fisker Karma. And just like the electric Elise before, it took on honest review to destroy the PR/artificially created fame. Reply
Azethoth - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link1) The model S is a sedan. You compare it with a Lexus or Mercedes sedan.
2) The Fisker Karma is a sports car. You compare it with a Porsche or the Tesla Roadster.
3) The review was in no way honest. Major egg on his face and NYT face.
Your post is bizarre. Do better in the future. Reply
jonup - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkFail on this one alone:
/quote 2) The Fisker Karma is a sports car. You compare it with a Porsche or the Tesla Roadster. /quote
Both Model S and Karma are 4-door sport sedans. Except one is fugly and the other is gorgeous. Tesla Roadster is what the name says.
I really don't get your first point. Are you arguing build quality?! I've been in one and it was as refined as... refined and Tesla Model S do not belong in the same sentence.
They tore apart the guy that gave objective review of the POS Chrysler 200. It beats me how car companies have better PR than newspaper.
You know what, forget what I wrote. Go get yourself a Model S with a big touch screen "tastefully" slapped in the middle. It seems to impress most people. Reply
Activate: AMD - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - link"Except one is fugly and the other is gorgeous."
Thats your opinion, don't pass it off as fact. I personally think the Fisker looks like the sick offspring of a Maserati and the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland. Reply
Spunjji - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkDon't let your logic get in the way of a fan-boy rant ;) Reply
jonup - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkFan-boy? How did you come up with that? I have had a limited interaction with both vehicles (which I would assume is more than both of you have had combined). I do not own either one and I do seek to acquire neither. My opinion about looks and refinement are result of my personal experience and not from reading the targeted manufacturers response to the NYT test.
And as far as looks go, Compare the front end of 10+ year old Maserati 3200GT and Model S and try to find the differences. Photohunt at its best! Reply
Spunjji - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkIt's not about Pr. It's about how the reporter made claims that were not factually substantiated and then failed to explain the discrepancies. Note that I am not including bits like the "he drove around in circles" claim by Tesla which he more than adequately explained. I'm talking about why he didn't charge his damn car properly. Reply
steven75 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkYou know what they say...Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I just saw the Fisker at the Chicago Auto Show on Sunday and thought it was one of the ugliest cars there. Reply
Heathmoor - Monday, June 10, 2013 - linkThe Fisker Karma and the Tesla Model S aren't of the same category. The Karma has only 4 seats and a small boot whereas the Model S has 5(+2) roomy seats and a very large trunk. The only clear advantage of the Karma is that can recharge its batteries with an IC engine while moving. Reply
Aikouka - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkA sham on whose side? Reply
shokunin - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkSham by Top Gear, they had scripted all the events before they got the car. Jeremy running out of juice, pushing the car into the garage because it was dead, were all scripted.
The result of the lawsuit was Top Gear isn't a car review show, it's entertainment and not journalism. Reply
jonup - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThis:
http://transmission.blogs.topgear.com/2011/04/02/t... Reply
ricardoduarte - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkI think Elon Musk is a bit of tantrum queen, he likes to blow things out of proportions a bit, Even with the whole thing scripted, top gear had a point and the whole would actually happen, and thats a reality of the electrical cars, specially when throwing them around a track, what interests me is if the financial advantages and if the car performance can be as exciting as a petrol ones, are good enough to live with range anxiety (at the beginning at least). Reply
Azethoth - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkNo, perceptions matter. If I had an electric car company I would take my lumps on extreme weather performance and charging times. These are the facts of life for current battery tech.
However, I would not sit still for hatchet jobs. Neither by Top Gear nor the NYT.
Failing to charge your EV is not a limitation of the EV. Its a limitation of common sense. The NYT failed at that.
As for top gear, ok, if I run a vehicle out of gas / charge then it will need a tow. Omg! Wow this is ground breaking entertainment. I like Top Gear but feel uncomfortable about what they did. Reply
jonup - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkThis is sensible piece of advice.
If you do not have common sense do not buy Model S, you will fail to charge it. On the other hand, if you have common sense, don't waste you money and get a better car.
... and on that bombshell... Reply
wetwareinterface - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linktop gear did a hatchet job???
they said the car performed well with great accelleration and a fast top speed. handling wasn't as good as the lotus the car is based off of. range when driving fast was also dreadful.
overall they said the car was pointless given that it cost more than the lotus, had only marginally better accelleration and top end, and would stop after 55 miles of hard driving and require 8-12 hours of recharging.
the fact is the tesla roadster is a bad idea all around and is only for the ultra rich to collect and use as a toy on short runs.
the tesla s also has abysmal range in cold weather, and takes a along time to charge. it's completely unusable for an only car based on range alone. you might as well state that the tesla's 311 miles is the max driving per day given the recharge time.
when they make hydrogen cars a reality and store electricity as said hydrogen instead of in a battery then a car that runs off the grid will make sense. until then unless there's a huge leap forward in battery technology we won't see a practical electric vehicle. Reply
Aikouka - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThat link is the exact reason why I asked.
I remember when the Top Gear lawsuit first became news, and I gave Tesla a fair shot with it. Since the segment happened a bit prior to the news, I had to rewatch it to properly form my opinion. Honestly, I couldn't see what Musk was belly aching over. Probably the first 75% of the review was praising the upsides versus a petroleum-based vehicle, and the latter portion was discussing the downsides (range and charge time).
After this latest issue, it's pretty obvious that Musk needs a few lessons in being a company figurehead. Reply
Beaver M. - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkBut its true!
Ive driven one myself and it is 100% true that the batteries dont last very long if driven like a sportscar! It also had quite a few other quality issues. Reply
Death666Angel - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkDuh. The suite was dropped by the judge btw. The show was scripted and edited in a way to provide entertainment but nothing they states was untrue. Reply
JPWhite - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkIt's only libel if it's not true. Reply
othercents - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkI think we should be looking at changing car testing now since obviously there has been significant discrepancy in multiple vehicle MPG tests and I don't think they correctly reflect real world driving compared to older vehicles. In the past you could count on a 2-4MPG difference between tested MPG rating and real world, however now I have see as much as 20MPG difference which if properly informed a buyer might choose a different vehicle with lower tested MPG, but gets better real world MPG. Reply
blowfish - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkGood article, Vivek, and the more so coming from an actual EV user.
The fact remains that people are obsessed about range - whereas most commutes are only a few miles, and so even the 46 mile range of the Leaf in worst case conditions is more than adequate. For longer trips, maybe a charging trailer equipped with a generator would be the way forward until such time as battery technology has improved.
Sadly, most drivers are probably unable to adapt their driving styles. Every day, I see folks flooring it between stoplights, rather than driving at the appropriate speed so as to get the "green wave". Those who do try to drive sensibly find others cutting in front of them, desperate to gain those one or two places that are evidently such an important part of their lives....
The real way forward for shorter commutes, however, is for people to get on their bikes, and get healthy as a side benefit. Here in Louisiana, however, cyclists are often assumed to be people who can't afford cars, and regarded as a nuisance by most drivers, and when you ride a bike on the road, you are aware that you are risking your life. Reply
Guspaz - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkModels of the Nissan Leaf sold in cold-weather countries like Canada feature various changes to function better in low temperatures. One example is that the Canadian model comes with a battery heater to improve efficiency at low temperatures, while the US model, to my knowledge, does not.
It's not really fair to test the US model of the Nissan Leaf in cold temperatures. One of the cold-weather models should have been tested instead. Reply
bobbozzo - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link20F is not very cold.
It was 27F in southern California recently, in the LA metro area.
In the mountains would be even colder.
Also, it gets below 0F MANY places in the US. Reply
cmart - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkGets? It stayed below zero, day and night, for eight days here recently (Northern Minnesota). Reply
relztes - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkHow can it possibly be unfair to test the US model in the US? If they took it to Nunavut for a test at -30 F, I'd see your point, but there is nothing extreme about 20 F in at least half of the US. Reply
Kerdal - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkTrust me, they don't have to go as far as Nunavut to test at -30F (-35°C), it was -45°C (-50F) a few days ago over here (QC) haha
Most cars wouldn't start, I wonder what kind of range an EV would get at those temperatures but that's probably why we don't have any over here. Reply
Alexvrb - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkBingo. The Nissan Leaf is a POS. It sucks horribly in cold weather (anything below freezing point of water, apparentely). It also uses air cooling for the battery pack, so it suffers quite horribly in hot climates, especially long-term. The Leaf is an all-compromise car. The Model S is leaps and bounds better, though it's got a price tag to show it.
The Volt and even more common hybrid designs are a better option at this point, if you don't have the cash for a Tesla Model S. Reply
Alexvrb - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkErr, and by better option I mean if you are only considering EVs, PHEVs, etc. There are lots of good options depending on how you're driving and what your needs are. For example small diesels or specially tuned small turbo gas motors for highway commutes. Reply
IKeelU - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThanks for this article. It's nice to hear an educated response to the controversy. Reply
ricardoduarte - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkWithout having much to do with post, i have a few questions since the Vivek is electric car driver.
I admit that i know little about EV's and I am a petrolhead, which loves everything about petrol cars, however i always wondered what would be like to compare the fuel expense with a petrol car (I am in uk and both are quite expensive at the moment).
I wonder if you have any other cars (for longer journeys), or this is the household main car?
- How many times do you charge your car per day?
- Have u noticed any big advantage financially to the use of an electric car?
- Do you avoid random driving because of fear of running out of charge, or that you might actually need the car later?
Sorry for the questions, but i always wondered if drivers of electrical car feel restricted because of the battery recharge time, and if the financial advantages are big enough to compensate any anxiety that the presence of batteries might give. Reply
happycamperjack - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThe fundamental problem of pure EV car is simple, Limited Freedom. Since the introduction of car, it has been the symbol of freedom throughout ages. How many hollywood films have you watched that have cars driving into the sunset? Sure current EV might last you 200 miles or 300 miles and that's plenty for everyone, but that anxiety of running out of juice is always gonna be in the back of your mind. People don't want to wait to charge their car, that directly limited their freedom of movement. If they don't mind that, they probably wouldn't mind public transportation either. So what you end up is a product that's perfect for engineers who can plan ahead and optimize their schedule around it. For anyone else it's a product that's unproven, anxiety inducer, pricey, and just a chore to deal with.
Plug in hybrids make a lot more sense. For city driving, the 30+ miles range is enough for most of the people during work days. For vacation or weekend getaways, that's where gasoline comes in. Knowing that you would not have to plan all the "charging" stops well ahead of time, makes life so much easier. Volt is a good start, but it's pretty ugly and feels cheap inside out when you compared to cars in the same price range, that's why it's not selling well. Fisker's reliability problems from multi sourcing parts(reminds me of F35) is scaring away potential buyers. The market is really waiting for a winning design. I really hope Tesla would consider adding at least a small gasoline motor to keep the electric motor running at perhaps 50% capacity when it's out of juice. Reply
IKeelU - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThe points you make about EVs could become less relevant over time. Namely:
- Recharging stations will become more common, making the more limited range of an EV less of an issue, and eventually (hopefully) a non-issue. After all, limited gas stations didn't hamper the adoption of gas-fueled cars a century ago.
- Recharging times will shorten as battery tech improves.
- Battery charges will increase as battery tech improves.
I agree about the hybrids. I rented a For C-Max for a week and mostly did city driving (except for the 30-mile drive to and from the airport), and the top-off before returning to the airport cost me about 8 bucks. I'm pretty much sold on renting hybrids from now on. Reply
happycamperjack - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThanks for the comment. As for now, there are more than 10x the gas stations than charging stations in US, and a lot of them are in california. Not to mention it takes 10 times longer (in charging stations, even longer without it) to charge a EV than a gasoline car. And if everyone's doing it, it's gonna overload the grid and force more "dirty" electricity production to keep it up. I think all this add up to an inconvenient solution for most of the population in US. Like I said, for more well organized people like engineers, this would not be as much of a problem. But why have a problem when you can have none? Our electric technology and the grid is not quite there yet.
This situation reminds me a lot of Tablet PC. The concept was good, but technology(capacitive screen and battery) wasn't there to make it good enough to sell to the mass. Reply
melgross - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkTry 1,000 to 1, or more. But the point is that so far, these EVs, are very range limited, and people expect a $100,000 car to do better. So while these road tests aren't exactly fair, or done well, they do illustrate the point that they come nowhere near a gas fueled vehicle Reply
Kjella - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link"After all, limited gas stations didn't hamper the adoption of gas-fueled cars a century ago."
That's a rather unfair comparison since it's trivial to bring extra gas with you in a can or a barrel, while there's no easy or cheap way to extend your battery range. Reply
guidryp - Monday, February 18, 2013 - link"Plug in hybrids make a lot more sense. "
Not to me it doesn't, though I understand the initial appeal of the argument.
If I am going for a plug-in I am getting rid of the ICE components. With a PHEV, you are essentially always carrying dead weight. You are running in gas mode, pulling around a huge heavy battery of little use, or you are running in EV mode, pulling around huge heavy ICE components you aren't using, and you have the expense of the battery and the maintenance of an ICE car.
Most households are multi-car anyway. Have one pure ICE car, and one pure EV. Each of those is simpler and better suited to it's main role.
Even without a second car, the only time I drive more than 100 miles is on vacation. I could simply rent a car for that (and have many times even though I own an ICE car). Reply
happycamperjack - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThanks for the comment. I definitely think there's a market for pure EV, but for majority of the population, I just don't think they want deal with the chores that come with it especially when it's costing more and unproven in reliability. At least with plug ins, you have less things to worry about, but even that is too much to handle for a lot of the people.
As for the dead weight argument, I agree,.I really think there should be more research on combining these two things together to save weight and space. Toyota did a good job with prius. I think they are the prime candidate for designing a new generation of plug ins engines that can be accepted by public. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkOr, go for the best of both worlds: a tiny, RPM-optimised diesel generator that does nothing but charge the batteries. Doesn't touch the drivetrain in any way. The Volt went about halfway down this path, but went with a gasoline engine that touches the drivetrain in certain circumstances.
Diesels can be better optimised to always run "in the sweet spot" to get the most bang-for-the-buck. And, if its only used to charge the batteries, you only have to worry about a single drivetrain. Treat it like a pure-EV vehicle, since (in essence) that's what it is. You're just carrying around a very small generator for those longer trips.
Making it a plugin would just be icing. Reply
beginner99 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkWell said. EVs just require to many compromises. Adjust driving style? Seriously? Then the charging. If you own a house and can just easily install such a station ok but at least were I live most people rent and a fix parking spot is often not included. And even if it is you will still need the go-ahead from the owner before you can install anything which by itself is not easy (the power must obviously be taken in such a way that it adds to your "power usage meter").
If you can't charge at home it's a no go.
The only real solution are fuel cells. You have a smaller battery than these current EVs which is constantly charged by a fuel cell. Hence you don't have the downside of the fuel cell (eg. no peak output) and gain range. The small battery should be standardized (haha, i know not going to happen) for easy change.
Another alternative would be an additional, standardized, switchable battery. Instead of fueling or charging you just switch the battery at the "gas station". But I guess with current tech batteries in a size that make this work would just not have big enough mileage. But still adding 20 miles might make the difference. And larger cars (= more space) could have more of them.
But yeah, current tech has evolved over 100 years, it is so much better, its impossible to come up with something new that is just as good and convenient. Reply
guidryp - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkOnce you learn the car better, you can get more out of it even in the cold
One Canadian Tested his Leaf at -13c after a 4 hour cold soak:
By backing off on cabin heating, and using the heated seats/steering wheel, you can save power.
He went 125 kms (~78miles). Mind you this is mostly city driving. Highway eats power more, but it is also shorter in duration, so less energy is spent on heating the driver/mile.
Definitely you don't buy an EV if your round trip commute is on the edge of your range, you want a healthy cushion and bigger cushion if you live where it gets very cold. And you certainly don't forgo a complete charge before an overnight trip in an EV. Reply
Midwayman - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkI'd be interested to see data on the -20 test without the heater running. How much of that load is just electric heat, and how much is the battery capacity being diminished by cold? For example if you made an electric car with a propane heater what sort of range increase could you expect? Reply
bobbozzo - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkIt was 20F, not -20F.
The hyphen/dash on the first page is confusing and should be changed to a colon. Reply
AVonGauss - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkWhile I agree that non-traditional automotive review methods need to be reconsidered, I think there is one take away from New York times article and that is the estimated range accuracy. We've all probably experienced it in laptops, where you have 1:41 minutes remaining that an hour later suddenly becomes 5 mins remaining. While using a device like a laptop or tablet that may be acceptable, the importance of the estimate accuracy is higher when using a motor vehicle. This is one case where you definitely want to be extremely conservative, even it makes your product seem a little less appealing at first glance. Reply
sweenish - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkAs far as I understood it, the car was fairly accurate in telling the NYT guy when it would die (the car told him it wouldn't make it close to the next charging station). He just decided to act surprised when it did die. Reply
shokunin - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThere's several factors that affect range in an EV, the heater/HVAC as described in the article.
Active heating and cooling of the battery pack. The ability to maintain temperature of the pack is paramount to keeping the battery operating within thermal limits, whether from weather or excessive current draw (driving fast) creating heat.
Driving style and speed. The faster you drive, the increased wind resistance uses more energy the faster you drive. This is also due to the fact that many EV's simply have one gear, there is no "overdrive" gear on an EV.
For the Model S, it takes more energy getting the car "up to speed" say 40-50 than it is staying at that speed. Ironically, in the city driving with lots of stop lights, it will use more energy than coasting along the freeway.
The NYT writer did a poor job explaining these and explaining the fact that one has to change habbits when it comes to an EV. Fully charge the car overnight, and when you are at a Supercharger, charge to full. You don't fill up your car to make it to the next gas station, you just fill it up to full. When you take a road trip on an ICE, you fill up whenever you've got a 1/4 tank left. He sort of missed the common sense part of charging. Reply
mchart - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkI had thought the high-end sports car like EV's had at least a two gear transmission.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of high-'output' racing EV's that are linked to a two speed transmission. A 'driving applicance' (Car that people who just need A-B transportation buy) doesn't need gearing though. Even more so in the US given the fastest most people ever go is 60-70mph.
Funnily enough; I'd only ever buy an EV right now for performance reasons. Not for going 'fuel-less' reasons. The essentially straight as an arrow torque curve of an electric motor is amazing for racing application. Reply
DParadoxx - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkWhile I appreciate seeing this sort of article on AT you needn't insult Musk's article. He identified inaccuracies in the NYT article and provided clear and easy to read graphs to back up his argument. Several of your graphs by comparison are crowded and difficult to read, even for an engineer. Reply
relztes - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkWell, Musk's article really was exaggerated. Broder spent less than 2 miles out of 500 over 75 mph, but Musk made a big deal out of it. Same for the half mile around the parking lot, which would have to be the world's weakest attempt at draining a battery. He points out the 40 miles for which the heater was set at 72-74 F after Broder noted the declining range, but ignored the last 60 miles of that leg where the heater was set at 64-66 F.
Now Broder did seem to exaggerate about how slow he was driving, and some of his decisions were pretty stupid. The decision to unplug at 35 miles was by far the dumbest. I'm really curious about Broder's claims that Tesla gave him bad advice, because he mentioned some really stupid things. Tesla might want to reevaluate the employees answering the phones. Even so, you'd have to be an idiot to trust some of that stuff. Who could possibly believe that frequent acceleration and braking will extend the range of your car?
Anyway, I completely agree with Vivek's assessment of Musk's article as vitriolic. His legitimate points were drowned out by his cries of "OMG HE DROVE 80+ MPH!!" when only a small portion of the drive was even over 70 MPH. Reply
jonvaustin - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkThe fundamental problem is basically the whole article. If a EV is to be successful the range has to be there for the right price, a good number of miles off a charge, and about the same experience as we currently have.
We have what 100 years of cars under our belt now and for the longest time operation has been a similar experience that is taught in a persons teens and carried throughout his or her life time. For a EV to be mainstream for that consumer to have to take into account temperatures, this or that is foolish. Why it will never take off.
A good example is Apple with the iPhone 4. It got crappy reception from improper antenna placement and the solution was to tell people to hold it the right way? That is fail. Case in point future models fixed the issue. To tell a consumer that you have to hold the phone a certain way and not the way you naturally hold it was not to popular. The same is with EV cars.
Another case is why we all use the slow inefficient QWERTY keyboard. Why? I learned it as a kid because my parents learned it that way. There are a dozen better solutions and ZERO catch on primarly because of that reason.
To ask me to learn about battery dynamics and to drive differently then I currently do in my gas based car will never work for the general population to be successful. What needs to happen is a radical breakthrough in energy storage tech so it becomes a mute issue. Reply
Luke212 - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkNew York Times article link is broken in first paragraph Reply
Galcobar - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkOne area neither side in this dispute has addressed -- that I've read -- is whether extremely cold temperatures affect the accuracy of the car's internal sensors.
Particularly, the level of charge remaining in the battery.
Elon Musk's defence is based largely on the level of charge remaining in the battery according to the log at various points, while reporter John Broder says his behaviour was guided by what the car was telling him (and what he then relayed to Tesla customer service).
As an aside, The Times' public editor -- a position meant to provide self-criticism to the paper and effectively act as an ombusdman -- wrote an interesting piece on the controversy: http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/p... Reply
relztes - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkRoughly estimating the power consumed by the heating system in the Leaf, I get 3.4 kW (on the UDDS HS drive cycle at 20 F). It's going to be a pretty big limitation if EV manufacturers can't figure out how to reduce this. They need to consider adding insulation, using heat pumps, and recirculating as much cabin air as possible. Obviously there isn't much room for insulation, heat pumps have limited temperature ranges, and some outside air might be necessary for proper ventilation, but they need to do something or they aren't going to have a very popular product in cold weather regions.
On second thought, it looks like Tesla isn't doing too bad. The range was only degraded by about 20%, so if they just factored temperature and climate control settings into their range calculations, people might not be too disappointed. A 200 mile range only looks bad if the car claims it'll go 240 miles. Reply
chipkin - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkThe 2013 Leaf SV and SL models switched to a hybrid heat pump / resistive heating system. I am the EV sales specialist for a large Nissan store in the Chicago area (where we routinely see -10 F winters and 100 F summers). I keep in close touch with my customers, and the cars have performed well within their expectations. The lease price for a Leaf is low enough that if you have a 50 mile or less daily round trip (like 80% of all US drivers), the car is effectively free once you figure in the savings in gas and maintenance expenses (no oil changes, filters, belts, etc...). Reply
vangman - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkVivek, could you explain why you consider the Top Gear episode was a sham? Reply
Hulk - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkWhile I'm a mechanical engineer it doesn't take much thought to understand that Tesla has a history of making claims that physics doesn't allow.
Case in point. The Model S is lucky to get 3miles/kWHr. So if you drained the battery fully that would be 85x3=255 miles. Best case. But the reality is you'll kill the battery quite quickly discharging that deeply. A more realistic discharge is what GM claims with the Volt. It uses a 16kWHr battery and discharges to about 11kWHr. Or about a 70% discharge if you want the battery to last more than a few months.
255x.7=178.5 miles. That is the real long-term viable range of the S.
I have argued this with a Tesla engineer and all he can tell me is that they have "super secret special battery technology" or some other BS.
There is nothing wrong with this range either. But Tesla should be up front about the numbers. Reply
Scootiep7 - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkYou hit the nail on the head in this article. I live in Iowa and own a Hybrid Escape. In the spring and fall it's great. 31-33ish MPG (wife has a bit of a lead foot, up to 35 when I drive it =D). And in the summer it's not bad, generally 28 - 32. But as soon as we hit late fall and throughout winter, FORGET ABOUT IT! We're averaging 23 mpg. And it's no better (in fact worse) in two of my friends Prius's. Electric cars simply aren't practical for cold weather and Hybrid vehicles currently don't live up to the hype in these conditions either. It regularly dips down into the 20 to -10 range here and occasionally hits -25 (most recent record was -36 four years ago). My point being, if you want to sing the praises about these cars and the wonders they do for "mother earth" and can save you enough to buy a small house, by all means, go for it. But don't outright lie about them to get people to buy them. At the same time, my 1997 Olds Cutlass Supreme still gets the same 20mpg city, 25 hwy it's been getting since I got it 11 years ago with 124k miles on it then and 176k miles on it now. It puts out heat and AC, drives the same range and takes less than 2 minutes to go from empty to a full tank no matter what the weather. That kind of convenience and practicality is something we simply can not offer in an electric vehicle at this point in time. Should we keep developing them? ABSOLUTELY! But should we start lying about them to get people to buy them? Good God no.
And the sad thing is that it's the same with ALL eco friendly products. Take CFL bulbs for instance. Supposed to save on average 4 times the electricity over a conventional blub and last around 10 times as long. And in an ALWAYS ON situation they work GREAT! But in a regular residential dwelling? AGAIN, FORGET ABOUT IT! I have 4 large ziploc bags in my basement full of CFL's with dead ballasts because the lights are frequently turned on for only brief periods during the evening and morning and then switched back off whenever we leave a room or the house to go to work. In my experience, they have actually died FASTER than regular incandecents. AND FOR FIVE TIMES THE COST!
The testing methods on ALL of these kinds of products needs to undergo some very, very harsh scrutiny and change radically. I couldn't agree with you more Gowri.
...Oh damn it, locked my "rant" key up again. I apologize. Reply
gauss jordan - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkConventional cars don't work all that well either in cold weather, but people is more used to those problems. And usually amply supplied with blissful ignorance.
The oil does not flow as it should before it is warm enough. A cold engine cause humidity to form on the cylinder walls which end up in the sump, where it changes into acid. The probability that the engine don't start at all increases a lot. And so on ...
For short trips EV's have some user benefits, like instant heating of the windscreen, instantly ready to drive after it is "started" ... , but as most technologies, with the benefits you also get the "costs"
CFLs should be banned. It really irks me when I see them promoted as eco friendly. Each CFL bulb contain more than 3 mg mercury!
Because the CFLs does not irradiate infrared light, the air temperature must be higher for the same level of comfort, and therefore CFLs often contribute to significant _higher_ total energy consumption (in the parts of the world where heating is necessary.
It should be mentioned that the same corporations that lobby for CFL bulbs, reduced the longevity of light bulbs from 2500h to 1000, on purpose. Now a 2500h bulb is regarded as "long life". Reply
mtwardochleb - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkAny comparison of range between the Leaf and Model S in cold weather is meaningless if you don't discuss the differences in their thermal management.
The Leaf's battery pack is air-cooled, resulting in cells reaching temperatures that are far too low or high to operate efficiently in exceptionally cold or hot climates.
Tesla's battery pack is both cooled and heated by a liquid thermal management system, maintaining cells at their optimal temperature, regardless of climate.
Active thermal management of the battery pack is how Model S maintains its range in cold weather. It does degrade, but not by 50%. Reply
VivekGowri - Monday, February 18, 2013 - linkSo, I didn't really want to speculate on the actual range effect on the Tesla would be in numerical terms, which is why I just left it as "the numbers will be different for a variety of reasons". Not only because of the liquid-cooled battery pack, but also because the heating element would likely be a lesser auxiliary load relative to the powertrain energy consumption when compared to the Leaf. Now, with that said, the principles are exactly the same. Reply
flyingpants - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkBut you did speculate on the actual range effect on the Tesla. On page 3, paragraph 1, you said "In cold or near-freezing weather, with the heater running, I would not be that surprised to see range fall to something in the 180 mile region."
That's a 32% drop. Why make up numbers? Why not instead find someone (anyone, maybe a Tesla forum user) who has actually done a mileage test at 20F?
Why does the title of the article mention the "Model S", and all the data is about the Leaf? This is misleading at best.
Doesn't Anandtech generate over $1m/yr in revenue? Since you and Anand both agree EVs need more/better testing, why not take the initiative and actually test a Model S yourselves?
:) Reply
mtwardochleb - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkYes, you did speculate with hard numbers exactly where flyingpants said. Why?
Also, if you're able to acknowledge the effects of active thermal management and the smaller relative load of the heating element in such a concise manner in the comments, why can't you mention it in the article?
What principles are the same? We're now talking about a battery pack that's actively managed, trading the temperature-based efficiency loss for a small heating loss, and a smaller heater relative to the motor (which draws an even smaller fraction of available power compared to the Leaf thanks to the battery operating more efficiently), so the Model S is operating on an entirely different range vs temperature curve. If you're saying that aerodynamics and friction remain the same, of course, but we're talking about how well the car copes with cold weather, and those two factors are what determine it for these cars. Reply
milkylainen - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkSpeaking from one who lives in a northern country and I have had fuel based heaters in my cars for quite some time now.
An electric drive-train should be doing just propulsion and minor electric stuff that can't be done without electricity.
Cabin heat in freezing temperatures SHOULD come from a fuel based heater. Volvo recently showed off a all electric drive-train which had solved cabin heat by using a renewable alcohol fuel based heater. Burning hydrocarbons to create heat is something fuel is great at.
Consumption is like an eight of a gallon per hour. Charging your electric car to burn all that precious electricity to create waste heat is just stupid.
Base heat on some renewable hydrocarbon source instead of getting range anxiety in freezing temperatures.
That's how you combine technology. Reply
Omophorus - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkMy biggest beef with the whole EV thing is that Tesla LOUDLY (LOUD NOISES!!!!) proclaims that there are "no compromises" versus a regular car.
Obviously, that's bunk. You have to completely change your driving style, your expected trip duration (especially for longer trips) and very carefully plan your route on long trips to be near Supercharger stations if you want to go any real distance.
And, frankly, if I'm limited in where I can go, and limited in how i can drive, I really have a hard time justifying embracing EV tech. I think the infrastructure and products will improve, and the current Tesla model range is an important step in that process, but anyone who buys one as anything except a toy is completely bonkers insane (or never, EVER drives long distances).
Most appallingly, to actually be able to use the Tesla, you can't use it. It's a "sport sedan" in the same vein as a 5 series BMW or a Porsche Panamera, but you can't do anything sporty with it if you actually want to go any real distance. If you're just tootling about locally, you're fine, but you wouldn't be able to do something like, say, leave the Triangle in NC and head out for a blast on the Blue Ridge Parkway. You'd be out of juice in the middle of nowhere and SOL. And, if I'm honest, there are very few reasons to even want to bother living in NC (having done it myself) besides the ability to spend a spring or fall day on said BRP to enjoy the sites and one of the truly fantastic roads in America. Reply
Death666Angel - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkInteresting write up. Couple things though. :D
To say: "The world of electric vehicles is still very new to the automotive industry, the tech industry, and the mainstream consumer." Is not that accurate. Electronic engines have been around for over a century. Many car companies sold electronic vehicles in the 90s. Just because some people are unaware of certain things does not mean those things are new. :)
Most of what you said here makes me go "duh". The interesting thing in this for me is whether the journalist is trustworthy or if he has a different agenda. So the article doesn't really help me shine a light on what is going on with regards to that. :/
What will play a role in changing the perception of EVs is when they will be charged like normal cars in 5 minutes. 90kW isn't bad for the supercharger, but it's still cumbersome. When we can refuel the electrolyte, EVs will be seen in a better light. :) Reply
law99 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkI find the argument that you just need to "change your driving style" without merit to probably half the UK population (complete guess), if not more considering the cost of the vehicle.
The fact remains that charging is inconvenient even to those that can. I live in shared accommodation in a house consisting of two flats. There is space for 2 cars on our drive. 2 people in the house must commute 80miles a day to work. The others 4 need commute anywhere between 15 - 40.
So if we were driving electric cars, what the hell would we do? It doesn't matter whether I have a lead foot in my 1.4 tdi... I don't have to fight for drive space to charge my car over night. Especially considering I don't know downstairs very well. There aren't charging stations on the street either... and I'm not running a cable out there. There is a house just down the road for dysfunctional and unfortunately parent-less teens who would play havoc with that idea late at night. (And I live in a *good* area)
I don't want to extrapolate from this really, but a very real possibility is that there are more people in the world living like this. That can't just, change their driving style. And see the Top Gear review and the fact it was thrown out of court for actually being factually accurate and realise that electric cars, just aren't there yet. They can't cope with our wallets, our commutes and our living spaces.
The best solution I've seen so far is that a fuelling station would physically replace your battery. So you'd drive in and it would be pulled out from under you and a new one would be inserted. Otherwise we are waiting on hydrogen, better hybrids or continue using diesel for long range. Reply
law99 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkI 'd like to add to this that even if the charge times come down to 3 hours... what are we to do? I get home at 6 along with my flatmate. My friends partner at 5, and my partner at 6.
2 hours charge takes us to 9. Another to 12. I'm out of the house by 7:30 am. The perpetual juggling of charge times is going to be untenable and impractical with a potential to put a strain on relationships (I couldn't get to work because you were on the drive??? No thanks).
The only hope would be that work install a charging station for all vehicles. Do you expect companies to make this outlay? I don't.
My car can return 60+ mpg and cost less than £2000 to buy. Reply
chipkin - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkThe Leaf can be fully charged at a Level 3 station in 25 minutes, and there are quite a few in the Chicago area. For 2013, the charging time from a Level 2 station was cut roughly in half, to 4 hours from TOTALLY dead. How often would it be totally dead? Never, really... An 80% Level 2 charge takes around 3 hours.
You should also remember that in many urban areas there are free L2 stations all over the place, so you will be picking up charge piecemeal, and are unlikely to come home with the "Low Range" light flashing. Reply
muy - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkcomparing an electric vehicle to something like a vw golf diesel that can do Berlin to Moskow on a single fuel tank is stupid.
electric vehicles have way different limitations and at this moment simply can't be compared.
if you do more than 100 km a day, liquid fossil fuel driven vehicles rule supreme.
if you do less than 100 km a day, electric is a valid alternative.
apples and pears. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkSo if you charge the battery to 28%, you get a range of 50 miles. Which is how far it drove when the idiot reporter charged it to 28%. Reply
foxalopex - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkI recently bought myself a Chevy Volt. While I admit it is a bit expensive, I like technology so this was a car that was somewhat affordable and fit my lifestyle.
To be honest, there's no significant changes in my driving style. Since I already live in a very cold part of Canada (Northern Ontario), I was already use to plugging the car in. Normally with a gas car you need to plug in a block heater anyhow in the winter. Thou I have to admit despite the relatively slow 0-60 (faster than a prius but no sports car) it has a lot of punch due to an electric having torque right off the line. I have noticed it makes it fairly easy to speed past normal cars as you can have the petal floored and no one can tell the difference since they can't hear you either. It also doesn't impact the battery as much as I thought it would. Probably the only major change is the slightly longer stopping distance compared to my former corolla due to weight. It corners and accelerates better probably due to traction control.
As far as weather, the car's mostly unaffected because the gas engine will kick in when it gets too cold for the battery to maintain itself. The only time I've seen weather really affect the volt is when it bottoms out to less than -4F and you didn't bother to plug the car in for 8+ hours. Then the battery shuts down due to extreme cold and the car becomes gas only which unfortunately makes it somewhat sluggish. But to it's merit, a gas car left in those conditions is about the same, a diesel probably even worse. Thou I'll admit one hilarious change is that when it is warmer, I am tempted to drive it for fun as a pure electirc.
I don't think pure EV's will reach mainstream unless battery technology significantly improves which will probably take a decade or two at least. The only viable technology I've heard of are induction based charging systems where your car charges as you drive. Until then I think a plug in hybrid like electric with a huge battery like the Volt is your best compromise.
I think this is why the Volt won so many awards and is highly rated by their owners including myself. Reply
humbi83 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkAs I see it there are 2 main things to the ICE vs EV debate.
1. how much energy you can store in a cubic cm
2. how fast you replenish that energy.
1. It's complicated, nature is very good at getting stuff optimized. But please be aware that it had billions of years to do it. In the end we'll be able to copy that and say that it was a great discovery. I would say that petrol can be considered as a very convenient battery. Even nuclear is still our way of bowing down to the laws of nature. But for the moment we are working on it.
SO, if 1 is not our main forte point, than at least we should try to replicate the delivery method. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2. At least we should try to have a way of topping up that is on par with the current petrol delivery method. So MAKE IT LIQUID. You go to a "battery" pump and simply replace the old juice with the new one. Collect it and recharge. Do this in a centralized way and we are set. Now this is not concept but already in development. I see it coming in the near future.
I think this makeshift way of charging at home is not the future, you cannot & should not plan per individual. We need to have some special, centralized way of handling this. Some big charging station that gets old juice and delivers a newly charged one. In this way you can scale & make use of delivered pow 100% of the time and not produce it "just in case" 10k ppl try to charge at the same time. You basically average the consumption and normalize the peeks to a manageable constant. In this way you can also plan your power infrastructure accordingly. Reply
humbi83 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkOh .. let's not forget fuel cells. NASA has been using fuel cells for the past half a century. They have 60~70% eff + electric motor 90-99% eff resulting in a combined 54->70% eff. Much better then current power trains. Reply
Doug_G - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkI have driven my Model S on several road trips in very cold temperatures - down to 0F - and have done 190 mile legs with a 20 mile safety buffer still remaining. In extreme cold I do recommend keeping your speeds moderate (say 55 mph) and using the "Range Mode" for the heating system (still plenty warm enough).
Other handy tips for cold trips: you want to do a "Range Mode" charge just before leaving, so the batteries are nice and toasty. Since you can continuously monitor the projected range, I try to drive to maintain a 20 mile "safety buffer" compared to the GPS display. If you're doing better than that, you can speed up; if worse, you should slow down a little.
Of course 99% of your driving is "around town", and for that the Model S has plenty of range to spare - you don't even bother looking at the range display. You plug in when you get home, just like a cell phone, so every morning you have a "full tank" and can blast around town with no concern for range whatsoever. You don't need any charging infrastructure except a 240V plug in your own garage. Reply
BoloMKXXVIII - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkAll this talk about heating, but I live in the south where A/C is more important than heat. How much does the A/C impact range? Also, when you have 200 - 300 mile range, who is really going to have range anxiety? Most families have two cars. One pure electric seems doable for most families. I for one would love one once the prices get a bit more realistic. I will keep my full sized truck for hauling and long trips. The EV will get 90%+ of all the mileage. Reply
alpha754293 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkAre you a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer (by training)? Just curious.
By "data cells" are you referring to data points? Or is that how many channels you're running? (2 million seems a little excessive if thats the number of channels you're running...)
I forget. Is UDDS same as FTP95? Reply
alpha754293 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkfrom the car makers perspectives - a lot of traditional car makers don't really know what to do with an EV. They don't really know how to build 'em, test 'em, etc. because a lot of them aren't dependent on heavy use of steel for example (a lot of are build with aluminum and other lighter metals, some of which have not been fully characterized yet).
New joining and fastening methods, new manufacturing methods -- we have a REALLY good graps of what to do with steel. We know that stuff like the back of our hands. But aluminum, and/or magnesium. pfft...it's anyone's guess at this point.
Same thing with battery/EV modeling and development. In fact, the rate that battery technologies have been changing is MUCH faster than the rate that the internal combustion engine has been changing when IT first started.
Don't be surprised if in the next few years, there's going to be a HUGE hiring phase pretty much at all of big (and small) auto makers for people with SOME (any) kind of EV experience as the need and the demand for people who know ANYTHING about EVs is going to be needed to answer some of these questions.
Right now, a LOT of them are just "tweaking" their existing procedures and methods (which are often developed from steel/ICE cars) and adapting them to "work" (barely) for EVs in their various flavours. Reply
rikulus - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkThis was a very informative article, much appreciated. That a lot of energy is used to heat the car had crossed my mind, nice to see the numbers.
I do get the impression from some quarters that running an electric vehicle in cold weather is inherently less efficient for the batteries. I would love to see the same test results without the heat on - not everyone needs their car set to 72 degrees. Maybe heat off, or set to 60, or just seat warmers or something.
If the loss of range is just due to how warm the car is kept, people should know that. Maybe cars could be better insulated. Reply
name99 - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - link"The mechanically-driven heating elements in conventional vehicles add another 5% or so in terms of mechanical efficiency loss, while obviously the electric heater in the EV is far more costly from an energy consumption standpoint even though it doesn't increase mechanical losses at all."
Two questions:
(a) My understanding was that heating for a gasoline engine cost essentially nothing because you basically diverted hot air that was flowing over the engine into the cabin. Why do you need heating elements?
(b) Is some sort of heat pump not feasible in an electric vehicle? I honestly don't know the answer to this. Maybe, because all you have to work against is the air outside, it simply isn't feasible? (As opposed to a house, where you have the thermal inertia of the earth below the house). Or maybe the weight of the entire system, pumps and working fluid and such, makes it not a win all things considered? Reply
pandemonium - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - link(a) Not to say that an electric heater is needed for a combustion engine per se, but in translation of energy consumption by comparison between combustion and electric, there's still a factor of demand on the system to get that heat to the cabin (the noted ~5%). This is the most important part of that quoted statement to focus on, "in terms of mechanical efficiency loss."
(b) A heat pump - as it stands today - by itself wouldn't function correctly for an EV. There isn't anything constantly moving mechanically on an EV (transmission, wheels, drivetrain are only when the car is in motion). When the vehicle is stationary, the pump would need to draw heat from something, and given the fact that an electric motor doesn't produce much heat (especially when compared to a combustion engine), a traditional heat pump wouldn't be sufficient in this case when the vehicle is stationary. A heat pump could possibly supplement an electric heater's function by way of water->air (think radiator surrounding anything mechanical), but the effectiveness may not be worth the weight and electric energy consumption of the pump itself.
There's certainly consideration in the works for advancing heat pump elements for EVs. Example: http://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=arpa-e-projects/electr... Reply
cmart - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkI chuckled a little when I saw that the testing went all the way down to 20F. Here in Northern MN, we average significantly colder than that for three months out of the year. Our average January temp is 11F. Reply
pandemonium - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI could definitely get used to reading automotive tech articles like this on AT. The first of hopefully many more to come! Thanks. :D Reply
jameskatt - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe Tesla needs a small gas heater to warm up the battery or cool the battery to help restore full mileage. This can be smaller than the generator needed by the Volt. Subsequently it would use a lot less gas or other fuel. Reply
Wardrop - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkBring on the graphene super capacitors...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd... Reply
Steven81 - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkIt's rather bizzare that companies that go to all the engineering lengths to built an EV still have such a big trouble in finding a fitiing way to refuel. There are only two ideas I can think of "swift recharge".
One, when my phone dies I rarely charge it, it's such an inelegant way to go, instead I have precharged batteries and pop them into place (and I put the "used" battery to recharge). Something similar can well happen to these cars. Having replaceable batteries and all fuel stations would do would be to pop a precharged battery in place. Simple...
One even more elegant way would not even require fuel stations in place but would certainly need great infrastructure (which pushes it in the " not directly doable" territory). Having roads which would in essence recharge your car through your wheels' contact with them (an alternative form of the "pantograph method" that trains already use) would do the trick.
The idea that EV should be clones of the petrol cars that we use for more than a century is ridiculous at face value, and the ideas above are not even that ground breaking or hard to be thought... Reply


text:
SAINT LEO, Fla.—The Saint Leo women's golf team wrapped up its spring season on Tuesday at the final round of the Sunshine State Conference Championships. The Lions improved from their second round performance and finished the tournament in seventh place with a score of 316-347-325—988.
"We did not play as well as we hoped here in conference," captain Heather Petronis said after the round. "This feeling of disappointment will only be a catalyst for sharper minds and stronger work ethic leading into next year."
Saint Leo was led by Lauren Shuford who shot a 78 in the final round—two strokes lower than her first and second round scores of 80. Shuford finished up a tremendous spring season in which she was constantly getting better. For the tournament Shuford shot 80-80-78—238.
Next in line in the final round was Clare Connolly, who improved from her second round performance, firing an 80 at Lake Jovita in today's final 18 holes. Connolly, a junior, finished the championship at 78-82-80—240.
Petronis came back after a down performance yesterday and carded an 83 to wrap up the tournament with scores of 82-98-83—263. Lauren Petty shot an 84 in the final 18 of the tournament today, improving her round by two strokes from yesterday, and ending the 54 hole tournament with 76-87-84—247. Rounding out the group was Alyssa Barrett, who dug way down deep and played her best round of the tournament in today's final round, carding a 90 to put her total at 99-99-90—288.
The Lions finished the championship in seventh place, behind Florida Tech. Winning the tournament in a sudden death playoff was Florida Southern.
There is the possibility that some Lions' golfers could be selected to compete in the NCAA Regional as individuals. The individual field for the NCAA tournament will be announced in a few weeks.
For photos and short videos from the Sunshine State Conference Tournament, visit www.tagboard.com/SSCGolf

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AlcoholScience brain teasers require understanding of the physical or biological world and the laws that govern it.
A girl was offered a drink of water with ice-cubes at a party. She narrowed her eyes and said, "This is part alcohol." How did she know?
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Elder Scrolls fans, get your thinking caps on! In the coming weeks, we'll be sharing some tricky trivia — questions that even caused some of our BGS developers to scratch their heads — put together by the fine folks at The Imperial Libary. Big thanks to them, as well as Todd, Kurt, Bruce, and Emil for their fact checking and input.
Additionally, we'll be randomly giving away copies of The Infernal City: An Elder Scrolls Novel — signed by author Greg Keyes — to participants that correctly answer the trivia (see rules at the end of this post).
With that said, here's the first question…
After Talos acquired and powered the Numidium, the mage Zurin Arctus supposedly became known as the Underking. However, records make mention of another Underking, long before Arctus' time. What was this Underking's name at the end of the Second Era?
Rules after the break…
TESting Your Knowledge – Contest Rules
- Send your answer to [email protected]. Be sure to include your full name, email address, and mailing address.
- Only one entry per person. The first submitted answer will be your official entry, additional entries will be removed and not considered for the random drawing.
- All entries must be received by 11:59 pm EST on Monday, January 18th, 2010. Any entries submitted after the Cutoff Date will not be considered.
- The winner will be chosen in a random drawing of correct answers received by the Cutoff Date.
- All participants must be 18 or older to enter and verification may be required before winner is announced.
- The winner will get a copy of The Infernal City signed by Greg Keyes.
Good luck!


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Not everyone knows about MS
Sometimes we become insular. We get into our groove, our space, our zone and we don't see far beyond our personal situation. Sometimes, without even knowing it, we become a little closed to the rest of the world.
It can be a more comfortable place than the big wide world with all of its issues, but it can also be a lonely place.
This weekend I traveled outside of my live-a-day, work-a-day, play-a-day world and made a trek into the woods of Montana. Well…it was really a small town an hour south of one of the state's largest cities, but I'm painting a literary picture here.
We came to this corner of the wilderness to prepare a tasting dinner for a local non-profit considering a fund-raising event next year. It's a manus manum lavat kind of thing (for those of you who studied Latin like I did. "One hand washing another" for those who didn't)
Team Gleason will split the work and a portion of funds raised will go to the MS cause.
MS is no stranger to this town of 1200'ish nestled in the cradle of a national forest (some of which is burning close enough that my early morning saunter with Sadie for her morning pee was interrupted by the sound of firefighting tankers roaring overhead).
I travel enough to know that not everyone knows multiple sclerosis like my adopted Pacific Northwest. With rates of the disease about twice the national average, I've come to expect that when multiple sclerosis is mentioned in another part of the country I'm likely to be asked if I'm one of Jerry's kids – not alone on that one – right?
But here we were, cooking, serving and eating three star food on a beautiful deck, with views into the woods and sounds not unlike the sounds Louis and Clark may have enjoyed around an evening fire; and even in this solitude people know MS.
We've discussed the apparent increase in diagnosis rates here in these pages. We've talked about the ration of women to men with MS increasing. We've canvassed for your experiences with family and friends close to you.
Let's talk about the people outside of your everyday circles. When you travel and meet new people, when you're away from those who know you and the topic comes up, what's the response? What is their reaction? What's yours?
I'll be traveling this part of the world on business this week, so I'll be checking in a little less frequently. I still, however, intend to get my postings in on our regular days, and I'll look to your comments as time permits. But for now, this rain-sodden Seattleite is going to pack up and get out of these wild fires; this is just not my comfort zone.
Wishing you and your family the best of health.


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Serves 12.
Spray Stand-up House Pan with vegetable pan spray; fill 2/3 full with cake batter. Bake and cool cake. Place cooled cake on foil-wrapped cake board cut to fit.
Spatula ice the house in white buttercream; spatula ice roof in light rose buttercream. Press candy sticks cut to size onto house corners.
For windows, roll out yellow spice drops on granulated sugar sprinkled surface. Cut into rectangles and attach to house. Outline with tip 3 and white buttercream icing; add gum shutters. Add sugar wafer cookie doors; attach pastel oval candies around door and as door handles. Add pastel wafer candies to roof in shingle pattern. Spatula ice cake board around house fluffy. Add jelly spearmint leaves "bushes" around house.


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The believers are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then have had no doubt and have struggled with their wealth and themselves in the Way of Allah. They are the ones who are true to their word. (Surat al-Hujurat, 15)
As Allah reveals in the verse, "Believing with no doubt" is the basic principle of the true faith. So if a Muslim definitely believes in the existence of Allah, he never hesitates in his faith under any circumstances, he behaves conscious of the fact that Allah sees and hears him at every moment, and he obeys the commands and recommendations of Allah throughout his life, while unconditionally applying the beautiful morality that He commands. On the other hand, he is so confident about the existence of the Hereafter that he lives as if he could die at any moment and be brought to give account. This faith is the way of belief, which Allah commands in the Holy Qur'an.
As we see in the verse, Allah praises the high strength of faith of those who believe in Him and the Prophet (saas) and who intellectually struggle in His Path against irreligion, and atheistic beliefs without a doubt. However, not every person claiming to have faith may have the profundity of faith mentioned here. Allah also mentions people who have weak faith and in many verses of the Qur'an, warns them as they do not believe as they should:
Among the people there is one who worships Allah right on the edge. If good befalls him, he is content with it, but if a trial befalls him, he reverts to his former ways, losing both this world and the Hereafter. That is indeed sheer loss. (Surat al-Hajj, 11)
There is no doubt that a man who truly believes, submits with all his body and soul and he never swerves from the morality, which Allah approves during any instant of his life. He shows the purest, deepest, most beautiful morality which he hopes Allah will be pleased with, even if he is sleepless, if he needs something or if he feels a physical fatigue. He would say the best words, and strive in the wisest, bravest, and most patient manner. Every Muslim who loves Allah very much, who takes pleasure of loving Him, Allah, who has a proper fear of Allah and who turns only to Him can reach this profundity that all of the Prophets who lived throughout the history had. The important thing is to show a consistent commitment and effort to be close to Allah, and never forget that there is no power other than Allah, and to take Allah as friend and trust in Him onlyin every moment of the life. A believer who meets all the requirements of true faith with all his heart and soul lives the life of this world almost like a person who came from Heaven. He never holds manners such as rage, anger, rush, panic, fear, sadness which are away from the moral values of the Qur'an. Thus, he reaches to a maturity of faith which is similar to the profundity of faith of the Prophets, and holy figures, while he vehemently hopes to become one of the servants whom Allah is pleased with.
In order to understand the profundity of true faith which is obtained with a deep love and a strong determination, we may observe the Prophets' lives that Allah gave as examples of in the Qur'an. For example, the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) exhibited the attitudes of a person who has a true faith in all stages of his life. He always submitted to Allah in the face of the difficulties that occurred, saw goodness in everything, never gave up, and always retained his reasonable and mature attitude. In the face of the weak faith of some of his disciples he behaved maturely as he knew Allah is the One Who creates them as the way they are, called them tenderly to the right path, and he turned to Allah for Him to to strengthen their faith.
And when the Disciples said, ''Jesus son of Maryam! Can your Lord send down a table to us out of heaven?' He said, 'Have fear of Allah if you are believers!'
They said, 'We want to eat from it and for our hearts to be at peace and to know that you have told us the truth and to be among those who witness it.'
'Jesus son of Maryam said, 'Allah, our Lord, send down a table to us out of heaven to be a feast for us, for the first and last of us, and as a Sign from You. Provide for us! You are the Best of Providers!'
(Surat al-Ma'ida, 112-114)
He turned to Allah with a nice response when Allah queried him, he praised and glorified Him, he has shown his deep love and devotion to Allah with his words full of respect and submission. When we look at the verses below, the sincerity in the words of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh), we can immediately notice his profound respect and strong love of Allah. Hence this sincerity and profundity is the clear indication of deep love and strong fear of Allah, and an exalted degree of faith:
And when Allah says, ''Jesus son of Maryam! Did you say to people, "Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah?"' he will say, 'Glory be to You! It is not for me to say what I have no right to say! If I had said it, then You would have known it. You know what is in my self but I do not know what is in Your Self. You are the Knower of all unseen things.
I said to them nothing but what You ordered me to say: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." I was a witness against them as long as I remained among them, but when You took me back to You, You were the One watching over them. You are Witness of all things.
If You punish them, they are Your servants. If you forgive them, You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.' (Surat al-Ma'ida, 116-118)
A Muslim who takes the Prophets as a model for himself always turns to Allah in the face of all events he encounters, strongly avoids to give a response which Allah does not like, he never reproaches simple attitudes such as anger, rage, being afraid, offended or panic and he always remains connected to Allah and Qur'an by behaving noble and mature worthy of being a believer of exalted faith.


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If you've embraced responsive web design — and we sincerely hope you have — you know that fluid layouts, helpful as they are, can be tricky. Combine them with
@media queries to re-size and re-position elements on the fly and you'll quickly find that testing your site is much more complex. Not only do you need to test across browsers for rendering differences, now you need to test across screen sizes as well.
Unless you've got a giant horde of cash stashed under your desk, you probably don't have every tablet and phone out there. Even if you did have every mobile device and screen size on the market, would you really want to test a website in every single one?
That would be incredibly inefficient when there's nice web-based tools like Screenfly that can handle it all for you. Head over to Screenfly, plug in the URL you'd like to test and then start flipping through the various tablet and mobile device screen sizes to see how your
@media queries are handling smaller screens.
Screenfly doesn't account for rendering differences between devices (which should be minimal given that most mobile web browsers are based on the same WebKit rendering engine), but it does do a good job of showing you what your shiny new design looks like on the latest tablets.
There are of course other web-based tools out there that can help in similar ways, but we like Screenfly for its clean, simple interface and nicely done transitions. If you've got a favorite, drop a link in the comments and we'll check it out. If you like Screenfly, you might want to keep an eye on Quirktools, the makers of Screenfly. The developers claim to have a wireframe app (no flash) and some other tools in the works.
See Also:
- Tips, Tricks and Best Practices for Responsive Design
- How to Have Your @Media Queries and Eat IE Too
- Why Percentage-Based Designs Don't Work in Every Browser


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JACK is a 10-year-old black and white male who is looking for a new forever home.
He is a friendly, sociable and inquisitive cat who would be best suited to a home with older children.
If you could offer Jack a home, please call the Worcester and District branch of Cats Protection on 07527 007436 or e-mail email@example.com.


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Best Reasons to Own Cooking Books
Best Reasons to Own Cooking Books from Overstock.com. Even with the internet, traditional cookbooks are still useful for casual and serious cooks alike.
For those that like artisan bread...GREAT....
|COOKING / Methods / Baking
|Publisher Date
|2007-11-13 00:00:00.0
|Thomas Dunne Books
|Copyright Year
|9.5 in
|7.75 in
|1.0 in
|Unit weight
|1.55 lb
|The Discovery That Revolutionizes Home Baking
|Hertzberg, Jeff
|Country of Origin
|United States
For those that like artisan bread...GREAT.Read More
Love this book! Never liked kneading bread! This makes bread making SOOOOOO EASY! Many different recipes that make it easy for inexperienced breadmakers!Read More
This cookbook is a must addition to the library of any collector of cookbooks and to anyone serious about breadbaking who is pressed for time. The genesis of the book is an ingenious shortcut that allows anyone to enjoy freshly-baked bread when they want. The secret is maintaining a refrigerated starter always ready to go when you want to start a loaf. The book thoroughly explains not only how to create and maintain this starter, but everything else you need to know. Even a novice can use this book to bake bread from scratch with ease and success,Read More
I was looking for this book and found it on overstock for much less. It is a great book and lots of fun to use. My family loves the bread!Read More
Although I have yet to make any of the recipes, I have read the tips & techniques which were illuminating for me even though I have been baking bread for years(as an amateur). Overstock's price was the best available and shipping was lightning fast! I might have like more photos as I always find photos enticing and motivating.Read More
You will never want to buy bread again after making the recipes in this book. From loaves, sticky rolls, pizza, buns, boules for Clam Chowder, the possibilities are endless. And unlike what a previous reviewer said, you DO NOT need a mixer with a dough hook. You just mix up the ingredients in a large container with lid and you are on your way. No kneeding required. A pizza stone does give you the best results, but you can get by without one. Get yourself this book, some flour, some yeast (buy in bulk at *****) and some Kosher salt. Throw in some lukewarm water and you are set!Read More
I can't say enough good things about this book! There are a wide array of recipes and some non-bread recipes that go well with certain breads. I have managed to do without some of the supplies they recommend. The only things I use are: measuring spoons and cups, the large container and lid, rolling pin, bread pan, cookie sheet (with tin foil and either flour or cornmeal), and small baking sheet for water. It's very easy to do and the whole family now gets to enjoy fresh, homemade bread :) I HIGHLY recommend this book.Read More
This book is amazingly informative and almost life-changing for those who like to bake but have always been a bit intimidated at the idea of baking bread (such as myself). It has become ridiculously easy to bake fresh bread almost daily. I end up usually bringing in a loaf or two a week to work and my co-workers have taken to calling me "the bread girl". So far the semolina bread seems to be everyone's favorite, but I think the brioche is pretty awesome too! I have many more recipes to try; really the best money I've ever spent on a cookbook! I would give it 10 stars if I could!Read More
This book breaks down bread baking to a couple of simple steps. Easy to read and follow directions will have you baking home made breads in no time. Recipes included for artisan, peasant, flat, enriched and sweet breads. Enjoy!Read More
Who does not love the smell and taste of homemade bread? This book is fantastic! The recipes in this book are easy and the taste and texture are terrific. I cannot recomment it highly enough; the best of the best!Read More
Best Reasons to Own Cooking Books from Overstock.com. Even with the internet, traditional cookbooks are still useful for casual and serious cooks alike.
Learn about good books that will empower young girls, tweens and teens. Shop books for girls on Overstock.com.
Best Books to Give for Mother's Day from Overstock.com. If your mom is a bookworm, use these tips to find her a literary Mother's Day gift.
How to Create Your Own Reading List from Overstock.com. Learn how to choose books that you'll enjoy and create a useful, engaging, and fun reading list.
FAQs about Banned Books from Overstock.com. Celebrate the freedom to read! Here are a few of the most frequently asked questions about banned books.
Twilight: Beyond the Novels from Overstock.com. Our guides provide customers with information about Twilight, the novel.
Pulitzer Prize Literature Guide from Overstock.com. Looking for something to read? Here is a list of notable Pulitzer Prize-winning books.
How to Start a Book Club from Overstock.com. Our guides provide customers with information about how to start a book club.
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Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day: The Discovery That Revolutionizes Home Baking (Hardcover)
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The American Diabetes Association recommends that you have these additional exams and tests every year after you have
type 1 diabetes for 3 to 5 years.1
When to start
Name of tests
After having diabetes for 3 to 5
Visit an
ophthalmologist or an optometrist for a dilated eye exam (ophthalmoscopy). If you are at low risk for vision
problems, your doctor may consider follow-up exams every 2 to 3 years.
Have a foot exam to check for
diabetic neuropathy. Your doctor will
look at your feet for sores and calluses at every visit beginning at diagnosis.
At least once a year, have a test using a 10 g
monofilament to check for sensation in your feet. People with one or more foot
problems may need to have their feet examined more than once a
After having diabetes for 5 years
See your doctor and have a
microalbumin urine test, which evaluates your urine
for the presence of a protein called
albumin. Albumin is normally found in the blood.
Albumin is filtered by the kidneys and then returned to the bloodstream. When
the kidneys are working properly, albumin is not present in the urine. But
when the kidneys are damaged, small amounts of albumin leak into the urine.
This condition is called microalbuminuria. Either of the following tests may be
Elevated microalbumin urine results point to kidney
damage. One of the following tests may be done to find out the amount of
protein released in your urine and estimate how severe the kidney damage
Every year you will also have a blood
creatinine test. The blood creatinine test shows how
well your kidneys are working. A high creatinine level may mean your kidneys
are not working properly.
CitationsAmerican Diabetes Association (2012). Standards of medical care in diabetes—2012. Diabetes Care, 35(Suppl 1): S11–S63.
Next Section:
Previous Section:
Last Revised:
September 26, 2012
Healthwise Staff
Medical Review:
E. Gregory Thompson, MD - Internal Medicine & Jennifer Hone, MD - Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism
This information does not replace the advice of a doctor. Healthwise, Incorporated disclaims any warranty or liability for your use of this information. Your use of this information means that you agree to the Terms of Use. How this information was developed to help you make better health decisions.
To learn more visit Healthwise.org
© 1995-2012 Healthwise, Incorporated. Healthwise, Healthwise for every health decision, and the Healthwise logo are trademarks of Healthwise, Incorporated.


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Does Site point offers good resources for people like me wants to knows in making website or developing website?...I mean tutorials like HTML,CSS,PHP,AJAX etc..so that it can easily for us to learn.for example like learning HTML there is category how to use all the html tags,attributes etc...
Thank you in advance.
Hi jemz.
SitePoint has [books you can buy, [URL="https://learnable.com/"]courses you can take, and online HTML, CSS and JavaScript [URL="http://reference.sitepoint.com/css"]references](http://products.sitepoint.com/). And you can learn a lot in these forums, too—by engaging discussions and reading the sticky threads in each forum.
Lots to help you.
Hi, thank you for the reply but do you have offline tutorial same tutorial you have in online HTML, CSS and JavaScript references.?
The books would be the closest thing to an offline tutorial that SP has.
The [HTML and [URL="http://www.amazon.com/The-CSS-Ultimate-Reference/dp/0980285852"]CSS](http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-HTML-Reference-Lloyd/dp/0980285887) references are available in book form at SitePoint. (I would have linked to them in the SitePoint bookstore if I could have found them. )
Is that book are free?
Hi,okay...I hope someone can generate offline tutorial the same as the online tutorial.because i have no money to buy book.
What's the problem with the online version?
You could perhaps check your local library. If they don't have the books, they may be willing to order them in.
Or look for second-hand copies. You can often get these very cheaply. :)
Hi,There is no wrong in online version...but how can i view the online if i am not connected to the internet.i am just using cyber cafe 3 to 5 hrs.
I guess the real question is really about what you need to achieve here. The references are handy, but it's good to have the overview that an introductory book would give you. If you don't have a lot of money, go to a library, or check out second hand books, as Technobear suggested.
Okay, Thank you for the advice.


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Do you have ancestors who were of the Catholic faith? Of course prior to the falling out Henry 8th had with Rome all our ancestors attended Roman Catholic Churches, but that is another story !
The Catholic National Library is house at St Michael's Abbey, Farnborough which is of interest to me as my father undertook building and masonry work there for quite a few years and I know the abbey well. They have a website with an online catalogue, opening hours of the library for research and other information of interest to genealogists. Well worth looking at if you have ancestors of the Catholic faith.
The Catholic Family History Society has published a number of CD's of births, marriages, burials, and wills etc.
- St Anne, Junction St, Ancoats, Manchester baps 1848 – 1874
- St Mary's, Mulberry Street, Manchester baps 1820-1831
- St Patrick's, Livesey Street, Manchester baps 1832-1860
- St. Patrick's, Livesey St., Manchester, burials1832-1858
- Lancashire Catholic Wills 1492 – 1894
- Lancashire Registers vol. 1 – covers The Register of Wrightington Hall (later St Joseph's), The Registers of Standish Hall (later St Marie's), St Wilfrid with St Mary RC Parish, Preston, Lancashire.
- Sardinian Embassy Chapel Register, London 1772 – 1841
- Miscellaneous London transcripts vol 1 – covers 27 indexed transcriptions of Catholic parish registers from churches, chapels and missions in the County of Middlesex.
- Miscellaneous London transcripts vol 2 – covers a further 23 indexed transcriptions of Catholic parish registers from churches, chapels and missions in the ecclesiastical division known as the London District until 1850.
- Introduction to Catholic Southampton by Canon R. E. Scantlebury covers The Registers of St Joseph's Church, Southampton, Introduction to St Joseph's Registers with Transcriptions of the Latin & French entries, Biography of Fr H. C. E. Van Doorne, the Belgian Poet & Curate and Historian of St Joseph's, A full transcription of the Pylewell House and Elm Cottage Marriage Register (1843 and 1855).
Image – This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license. Originally posted to Flickr by SnapshotsofthePast.com. http:[email protected]/5085811195


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THE Mayor of Dudley hopes to get people into the Christmas spirit at his traditional civic carol service tonight (Thursday December 20).
Dudley Council has organised the annual civic carol service which will be held at ChristChurch, Coseley, from 7.30pm.
Mayor, Councillor Melvyn Mottram, will be at the service which will include performances by Dudley Young Voices, VTime and In Sound Company choirs - while the service will be led by Reverend Heather Humphrey.
Councillor Melvyn Mottram, Mayor of Dudley, said: "We always get a good number of people helping us celebrate Christmas at the traditional Civic Carol Services, and I hope to see more this year.
"What better way to start Christmas than with a few carols."
Refreshments will be served at Christ Church C of E Primary School hall, following the service.


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