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Radeon 5800 Series: Prices Up, Supplies Downby Ryan Smith on 11/5/2009 12:00 AM EST
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- Ryan's Ramblings
98 Comments
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MonicaS - Thursday, November 12, 2009 - linkOk, sorry to ask a probably intelligent question, but arent these cards all but obsolete? I mean, I've had a PS3 now for as long as its been out and all the time have loved the graphics. I never felt like I needed any sort of upgrade, not that its possible with a console. I mean more rhetorically. As for PC, I have an old 8800 Gtx and that's more then enough for what I need. I actually have a friend that bought a nVidia 260 for Wow! Seriously!
Are these cards even needed anymore? It seems like what was out a year ago is far more then enough.
Monica S
Los Angeles Computer Repair
http://www.sebecomputercare.com/?p=1178">http://www.sebecomputercare.com/?p=1178 Reply
arnavvdesai - Friday, November 13, 2009 - linkNo these cards are far from obsolete. Far from it, a really holy grail would be 60fps/ 4xAA 16xAF everything set to V.High @ 1080p. Most games which look good on consoles are really playing @ 30fps & that is one of the sacrifices game developers have to make to achieve good looking games @ 1080p. Also most if not all games are actually done @ 720p & converted to 1080p using the upconverter. This leads to some loss in fidelity.
Also physics processing is being pushed more & more onto the graphics chipset. So while you think that it's 'good' enough I beg to differ & would argue that the 'HD' console generation has not yet been reached. While, we know for sure that the current console generation is not going to be replaced for another 3 years minimum, it does not mean we have reached gaming nirvana. Reply
Grandpa - Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - linkI just got my order into NewEgg today. I put myself on their "Auto notify" list. The last time I got an e-mail notifying me it was available, when I went to apply for it, it was too late. This time, with an advertised expecxted date of 11-16 I didn't wait. I went to the card's page and visually looked to see if it was available every chance I got. Today it paid off. The order is in. 30 minutes after I put my order in I got a "Auto notify" for it. So I went to the order page and sure enough IT WAS OUT OF STOCK! The lucky time for me was 3:45 pm mtn time. Good luck. Don't give up. Reply
at80eighty - Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - linkgrabbed one off Amazon (I'm guessing via Tigerdirect) - in the 2 days that I was deciding to purchase, the price went from 129.99 to 135.99. Oh well
Was looking forward to the 5970 in another 7-8 months, but looks like im going to have to wait much longer till the price is even remotely considerable Reply
marc1000 - Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - linkat80, wich GPU did you have before the 5750??? I am planning to buy the 5750 too, but I'm not so sure if it will be a upgrade good enough over a 3870 (i have a 3850 at 3870 speeds). Reply
at80eighty - Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - linkI have an XFX 7300 GS (stop laughing at me!) . so yeah to me this will be a HUGE upgrade. It's worth it alone since im running Win7 & the DX 11 compatibility is handy
IMO you'll be happy enough with the 5750 difference over your 3870 too, as it's OC'able too Reply
austonia - Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - linkthe 5850 was a bargain at $260 so i don't blame them for raising the price in consideration of the demand. i got one a month after they came out by signing up for a newegg product alert. 2 days later i had an order. this thing clocks up to 900 core/1300 memory at stock voltage or 1000/1300 with slight bump to 1.2 volts. at top speed it's a couple of fps faster than a 5870 (stock) in Crysis at 1080p/DX10/very high options. here's a good review of 5850 OC performance:
http://xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-...">http://xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-... Reply
Grandpa - Saturday, November 07, 2009 - linkWith millions of dollars at stake they come out with a new chip and they set a price without knowing the yields! So Anand and all the others write raving reviews and push the card based on price, THEN they raise the price! WoW, where have we seen this technique before?
I was going to buy one of these too. I think I'll let the recession take it's due course and wait for things to calm down a little before I make any hasty decisions. Reply
tomcon - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkI'm glad to see that AMD's cards are being sold like hotcakes. Dont see why others who have commented seem to blame AMD for TSMC's problems..I dont know how the whole system works but I'm guessing they had a good system down but then this comes up. The whole shortage seems too convenient for other companies at the release of a great card. But then thats probably my bad speculation. GF is probably wishing they were making some of the new cards. Reply
CptTripps - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkI ordered one and was told a week later (after several phonecalls) it was out of stock, unhappy birthday to me eh. If I have to wait until 2010 I might as well see what Nvidia has up their sleeve. Sorry ATI but blaming someone else is not going to cut it, you wanted to beat Nvidia out the gate and it will probably bite you in the ass.
Don't get me started on the price hike... Reply
tamalero - Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - linkyou need to take into consideration the fact that nvidia had the same problem with their 8800GT series. Reply
Slaimus - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThis is the same thing that happened two years. I snoozed on buying the 8800GT when it was launched at MSRP, and by November, prices have gone up to $300 for the 3870 and $320 for the 8800GT.
On a side note, Dell/Alienware seems to have no shortage of 5800 cards, so the rumor that they gets first dibs is probably true. Reply
yacoub - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThe 8800GT prices at launch were around $299 and there were launch deals as low as $259. Then they went up to around $320, yes, but soon enough came back down to the $250 range and then lower still to around $220. Reply
DukeN - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkPrices went up after the first Intel fiasco and haven't changed much since. Reply
yacoub - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThis article conveniently avoids how the original MSRPs for the 5850 and 5870 cards were supposed to be lower than what they debuted at.
Pre-launch, everyone, including review sites like Anandtech, were talking about 5850 for $199-249 and 5870 for $299-349. Some of us still remember that. Reply
ATimson - Monday, November 09, 2009 - linkThe MSRPs were only $10 and $30 more respectively. I think a <10% bump between estimate and final process is hardly unreasonable. Reply
airmantharp - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkAssuming we had Nvidia's GT300 today and no 40nm issues at TSMC, those prices sound about right. RV870 is the same die size as RV770, which means that if yields were the same, RV870 should only cost a little more than the RV770 to produce, per die. I'm making an assumption about the price difference between the production technologies.
But in the end, products are priced according to the market, and that's a good thing. Reply
qwertymac93 - Saturday, November 07, 2009 - linkrv870 is not the same size as rv770, its MUCH bigger. rv870(5870/5850) is 334mm2, rv770(4850/4870/4890) is only 263mm2. how on earth would ati be able to pack more then TWICE the transistors in a space the same size when the process is only 30% smaller? simple math estimating would show that is impossible. even if amd didnt release the die size, it would still be ridiculous to think rv870 was the same size as its predecessor! (263mm2 for rv770*2)*.7=368.2mm2, so even this SIMPLE (although inaccurate) equation shows you'r just plain wrong. Reply
yacoub - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThat's fine, I can wait. Besides, "It's Economics 101 in action." - Yes but so is the rest of the economy and that's still not doing well. So they really can't just raise prices very far or for very long. They'll come back down and I have no problem waiting until then. Reply
airmantharp - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThey can raise prices as long as someone's willing to pay those prices. The cards don't stay in stock, so I'm pretty sure there's more elasticity left; they could raise the prices even more, and people would still buy them. It's not even related to performance; the GTX285 has been overpriced for it's performance since the day it was released, and yet they still sell. Reply
mapesdhs - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link
Indeed, as long as the demand is there, then by definition they will
sell no matter what the price.
I remember before the PS1 officially launched in the UK, some were
happy to pay $1500 for the import model in HMV...
mapesdhs - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link
As usual in the UK we get screwed. Looking at a typical seller site
(Scan), apart from there being no 5850/5870 cards in stock anyway,
the prices are through the roof - equivalent of $370 for the 5850
and a whopping $532 for the 5870.
I'd been planning a 5850 build before xmas, but not now, prices are
silly and they're not available.
NVIDIA must be delighted with the situation as it means there will be
many more people in the market for a new card when their next GPU
launches than would otherwise be the case.
These days it seems like the whole PC market is getting a bit wonky.
AMD has no modern performance CPU, Intel has no modern budget CPU,
AMD's latest GPUs can't be found and cost a fortune, AMD's old GPUs
are being phased out even though they're still perfectly ok, NVIDIA
only has old tech still being sold in revamped forms (or the prices
are also crazy, eg. up to almost $700 for a GTX295 here) or their
cards aren't in stock either, and so on.
About the only thing that seems to be evolving sensibly as of late
is storage re SSDs with TRIM at reasonable prices, and AMD's good-
value budget CPUs like the Athlon II X4 620.
TinyTeeth - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link"These days it seems like the whole PC market is getting a bit wonky. (etc.)" lol, spot on.. Reply
marc1000 - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkyeah!! and has anyone checked the auctions at EBAY today??? from yesterday to today the price of 5850 board went from US$ 300 (it was alread higher than newegg) up to US$ 450!!!! it's completely insane!!!
the 5750 is keeping the same US$ 140-150 price tag, however.. half the performance, less than half the price... it is getting more and more attractive to me... Reply
ph3412b07 - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linksounds like another class action lawsuit in the making... both ATI and Nvidia shelled out millions for the last one. Reply
ph3412b07 - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linksounds like another class action lawsuit in the making... both ATI and Nvidia shelled out millions for the last one. Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkSeems to me, that hurting TSMC right now would be like shooting yourself in the foot. TSMC needs their resources to keep improving yields and manufacturing processes. Reply
FAHgamer - Saturday, November 07, 2009 - linkTrue, but when GlobalFoundries comes close to starting production, it won't be that much of an issue for AMD anymore. Reply
tviceman - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThe first to market coup AMD pulled off with 58XX series is being trampled over by the yield issues. By the time it is finally sorted out, nvidia will have fermi out and will only have lost out on a very small number of sales. Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkNvidia is going to suffer from the same problems AMD is right now. Since TSMC is the die maker. In fact Nvidia will be worse off since their core is more complex. Reply
TinyTeeth - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkTrue, but if there is anything Nvidia needs right now it would be more time. Whenver their chips finally come out with good yields, there will be more people still waiting to buy video cards than if AMD had not been struck by supply issues at this time. AMD fares disproportionately worse because of this since they are (obviously) much further into actual phyisical production of their GPU's. Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkWhile I agree that it would be much better for AMD to flood the market right now. Nvidia would have benefited too if the yields were good. They would be able to get their GPU out that much sooner. So I don't think NVidia is really gaining much.
With the problems they are having now Nvidia will suffer with lower yields down the road. AMD is still making money on its GPU right now. While Nvidia is not. AMDs yields should ramp up quicker then Nvidia's down the road. Reply
puffpio - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkit looks like the 5850 and 5850 crossfire are almost equivalent in performance.
and it looks like the 5870 beats the 5870 in crossfire
wah? Reply
jav6454 - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkSome games are not CF friendly or for that matter scale well (mostly because they were nvidia oriented).
However, that's some games, not all. Reply
palladium - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkLikely to be driver issues with CF in that game Reply
marc1000 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkthis graph only shows ONE benchmark. and it is one where CF does not scale well. check the full review for more games. ;) Reply
Hauk - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkCF scaling needs work:
http://benchmarkextreme.com/Articles/HD%205870%20T...">http://benchmarkextreme.com/Articles/HD%205870%20T... Reply
tamalero - Monday, November 09, 2009 - linkthats for tri-fire for gods sake. Reply
juampavalverde - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThis yield issues where know from before, AMD should start cooking engineering samples from globalfoundries, at least the smaller chips of current lineup... Reply
Zoomer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkChips designs are optimized for the specific process the manufacturer (in this case TSMC) have. It's not possible to transplant the designs from TSMC to GF just like that without some re-engineering. It'll probably take months, and the performance probably won't be as great. Reply
haukionkannel - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkTSMC problem is allso problem to Nvidia. The Ferni is even bigger than ATI chip, so they are not going to get too many working chips out.
The only one who may benefit from this is Intel. AMD is not getting money from GPU because they have "nothing" to sell, even they have very good product, same may be true with Nvidia. So no financial boost to Intel rivals for a long time.
I really hope that TSMC can fix their problems or that Clobal foundaries are early in their production!
HDHannes - Sunday, November 08, 2009 - linkcan't they sue tsmc for not delivering what was agreed upon (i am not in that industry, but there must be some agreement - contract - must there not?)
if they knew about those yield probs while the 4770er was in manufacturing, why the heck didnt they change the manufacturer? is tsmc the one and only?
Zoomer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkWith the way defects and yields work, nVidia's problems will be exponentially worse.
Probability! Reply
jav6454 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkWhat I hope is that AMD can make their own chip factory. It's sad that both major graphic chip makers have to depend on one company.
rrinker - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkAMD did have their own fabs - they spun them off to a separate company of which they own only a small part of.
Zoomer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkYeah, about 0.1% less than half. Reply
dragonsqrrl - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linktrue, but ATI GPU's weren't being manufactured at those fabs to begin with... to my knowledge. Reply
lucky9 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkConsumers aren't without influence. Not eveeryone has the abilityto justify paying for someone else's mistake. Looks like their are other options. Reply
jav6454 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThe worst thing that could have happened. Why? I was planning on a build with 2 HD 5850s and this shortage is gong to delay me by a fair amount of time. Not to mention cost. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link*OR* you could just go with something else.
The only thing that is holding you back, is you, and not wanting to go with something else. Whether said product has "AMD inside", or not.
Personally, if I wanted to build a system _right_now_, I would, and move on to something else that is available, and in my price range. Reply
12GaugeShotty - Monday, November 09, 2009 - linkThere aren't any other DX11 capable graphics cards equal to the 5850 though. So no, he cannot just go with something else. I would assume you are meaning nVIDIA but there goes DX11 as well as a hotter running graphics card that sucks up more power and is practically at it's EOL.
Fortunately for me, I am glad that I snagged a MSI Radeon HD 5850 the moment it came in stock. ;-) Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkHis dual 5850's would smoke anything else you're planning on building. Unless you use a 5870 , but then you have the same problem. Waiting isn't a bad idea right now. Reply
cgramer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkI'd been waiting to build a system until the 5800 series came back in stock, and was debating between a single 5870 or two 5770s in CrossFire. Looks like 5770s for me, especially after reading your other article from when the 5770 and 5750 came out. 5770CF was near the top is just about every benchmark. Reply
cgramer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThe link to the previous article with 5770/5750 benchmarks:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3658 Reply
rolodomo - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkby dominating both price and performance. They've just blown it. Ultimately this will be good news for the consumer. Whenever either company achieves temporary dominance, they alway find an excuse for $500 graphic cards that provides an opening for the other guy to recover (notice the pattern?). Reply
Griswold - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkAside from the who blew it, AMD or TSMC debate, what makes you think AMD missed the opportunity? Nvidia is nowhere with their next generation... feb, march, april maybe? If TSMC sorts their problems out as promised before the end of the year, AMD can still cash in for quite a few months.
Furthermore, nvidia will first have to prove that their product is as good, let alone better than what AMD offers and that they can sell it for a competitive price. We still dont know jackshit about the gaming capabilities of that thing - and that speaks volumes.
Dudler - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkAMD didn't blow it. TSMC blew it. Amd can't be blamed for TSMC screwing up again!
Good news is that GF should have their 28nm bulk process ready second half next year. And according to Fudzilla ATi are designing their Northern Islands (aka R900)to go with both GF and TSMC.
In my mind there is no doubt that ATi will switch manufacturer at the first opportunity, TSMC has had their chance and fell short. I guess they will be stuck with the impossible projects of nVidia. Reply
erple2 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkUltimately, this argument fails because the consumer is not buying TSMC's products. They're buying the product from AMD (really, from the distributors, like Sapphire, ASUS, etc). It's not the consumer's problem that TSMC can't deliver chips correctly. These are all business decisions that AMD had to make before they started the 5x00 series processors.
That's kind of like saying that the consumer would blame a tire manufacturer for not providing the car they want to buy. The consumer doesn't (and honestly shouldn't) care that the tire company is not supplying enough tires because they can't make tires fast enough to the car manufacturer.
The consumer buys the card in a nice, pretty, retail box because they don't want to have to assemble their own video card.
Ultimately, a vendor like XFX, ASUS, Sapphire, etc won't blame TSMC (or Samsung or the maker of the screws they use, or the brand of solder they use on the board) for the reason they aren't delivering the product to the consumer. If they do, they are incorrectly passing the buck.
As a techie, however, I understand the problems associated with it. The consumer, however, simply knows that they can't get this newfangled fast video card. Reply
Dudler - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkYou are both correct and wrong. Of course I wont blame TSMC for screwing up their 40nm capability. But knowing this, I wont blame ATi either.
These things happen, especially at such high levels of production, and when you have one sole supplier, with no alternative options. From ATi's view, its force majeure.
Why has someone to accept blame? I know this is the american way, but..it is just how it is. Hopefully TSMC untangles their process fast, and then we all will be satisfied. Reply
kn00tcn - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkbut there is only 1 'tire manufacturer' that makes 40nm chips, so there is no choice (unless you mean amd could have chosen to get GF going earlier & to be capable of 40nm) Reply
Zoomer - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - link"The consumer, however, simply knows that they can't get this newfangled fast video card."
And the best way to solve that would be to raise prices. Whoever wants it badly enough gets it, the others can wait. Reply
JimmiG - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkIs the 5770 also a harvested 5870? How will TSMC's problems affect the pricing and availability of the 5770? It still has competition in the sub-$200 segment in the form of any remaining GTX260 cards, and ironically, pretty much all of AMD's previous 4800 line up...
I'm definitely waiting until next year before getting a DX11 card now. The 58x0's and the 5770 were more expensive than they should have been even when they launched (the 5770 should have been less than $149, the 5850 should have been $199 and the 5870 $299, just like the 4000-series Radeon cards at launch). Once the yield problems are sorted out and Nvidia and/or Intel introduce some competition, prices will drop. Early adopters (including the very early ones before the latest price hike) will regret their purchases. Reply
dragonsqrrl - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThe 5770/5750 use a different GPU, it isn't simply a 5870 with deactivated stream processors. Reply
JimmiG - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkStill, it's being made on the same 40nm process. Is the die too small to be affected by the yield problems? I can't see the 5770 getting any more expensive - it's poor value already. Reply
dragonsqrrl - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkthe size/transistor count of the GPU does matter in relation to process yields, but i doubt that it has much relevance in this situation. The volume of usable 5770 GPUs may be greater, but the yield ratio is probably similar to the 5870 (as the article said, around 40%). Reply
Calin - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThe yield must be better on a smaller die. If you have a die half the size, your yield could be up to two times bigger (if the errors in the process are very localized, and very small, the chance that such an error would affect more than one smaller die is minute). As such, half of the big die is bad, half is good, and for every bad big die, you have one bad and one good small die. Reply
Zingam - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkNo, I think they are different chips. Reply
marc1000 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkbut this just makes the 5750 more attractive. it has 50% less performance, but costs EVEN LESS than 50% of a 5850.
that has just defined wich will be my new board: the 5750 (I'm replacing a 3850).
An I better buy it before it goes out of stock too... Reply
cowzzwoc - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkIt will be nice when TSMC has some competition from Global Foundries. They would be feeling even more pressure than they already are Reply
phaxmohdem - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkAgreed. I wonder what the price (die size) and heat characteristics of the 5800 series would be if they were produced on GloFo's mature 45nm process compared to TSMC's seemingly troubled 40nm node. Reply
arnavvdesai - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkI dont believe AMD can even afford to introduce 5900 as they would need two dies for every one of the cards. They have no incentive to do so since atm I believe there is a large enough demand from either games or 'normal' folk. Reply
Ananke - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkInitial MSRPs were so-so OK, but any price hike will erase AMD's advantage of being first to the market. What happens is people will just buy SONY PS3 this hollidays for entertainment, and wait unitil Nvidia and Intel come with new graphics. Which means, no games and applications for the new RAdeons, i.e. no broad customer base. After Christmass the Radeon pricing would not matter anyway, Nvidia will be almost on the market.
These should be $250 for 5850 and around $320 for 5870 to flood the market. Anything hire than this competes with other consumer electronics and particularly with game consoles, which unfortunately for AMD, have the higher hand today.
Anyway, brilliant product, bad marketing execution.... Reply
Live - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkAnanke as you can read in the article (I know reading is hard :) they can't get enough cards to flood the market. That is the problem. They are selling every card they can get from the factory i.e. TSMC. Your plan, great as it might be, can only be done when you can produce lots of cards. Reply
mjcutri - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - link"These should be $250 for 5850 and around $320 for 5870 to flood the market."
Did you even READ the article? They aren't getting enough dies as it is, so lower prices would do nothing but cost them money. You obviously have no knowledge of basic economics. If they had enough supply, then yes, lower prices would help them sell more; but it isn't prices driving how many they sell, it is supply of their dies; therefore they can raise prices without any effect on their sales because they are already selling as many as they can make. Reply
Ananke - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkI read the article of course. Also, I work at a major AMD distributor. This pricing will cost them market share gains...which is sad, because the product is good. They have 4-5 months ahead of Nvidia, and bad pricing will erase their advance.
My comments are from marketing /sales/ view point, based on sales statistics. Reply
PrinceGaz - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkNo this will not cost them market share gains because they cannot produce enough cards to satisfy demand, even at the higher price.
They could price the 5850's at $10 each and their market-share would remain exactly the same because they can't produce any more to sell. When they can produce enough to more than satisfy demand, then and only then should the price come down. Reply
Ananke - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkMy point is that ATI demand is more elastic to pricing than Nvidia, i.e. distributors are not selling ATI, because the final clients don't want ATI unless the price point is good to penetrate the market.
So, AMD had good chance to position themselves in the professional market, but now it seems that opportunity diminishes. I am not saying they are doing this intentionally, but their pricing/application/support mix now is above the point to make sense selling them in the distribution channel. They could have made good share increase in the discrete graphics retail market, but they need availability and better pricing. And, they compete with gaming consoles in the consumer retail area - tough battle against PS3 at $299.
I understand it is an outside AMD reason /TSMC/, but this affects AMD sales. Now, people will just completely decide to wait for Nvidia, instead giving ATI a try.
My point is - it could have been better for their market share if they had the volume availability. I am talking about lost good opportunity. They will keep their market share, but they have less chance to increase it. Reply
The0ne - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkPrinzGaz is right, they just can't make enough for the demand, plain and simple. Reply
erple2 - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkI think that the current market is telling us that any Distributor can sell as many boards as they can make, somewhat independently of the price they're asking. Demand is just crazy high right now, and supply is crazy low. Things will start happening soon, however, as supply starts to catch up, and there are alternatives available to distributors (aka NVidia has a competing product). Then AMD is going to have to seriously consider dropping the price they charge distributors for the dies.
I also understand that distributors have a lag time between when they receive a die from manufacturing to when they can turn around and sell those to retailers/end users. If that time is too long, then when the prices do finally come down, distributors will be sitting on "expensive" dies that they paid for months ago that are now selling for less. Is that what you're talking about?
If AMD is not able to quickly change the price points that board vendors purchase their products for, and the lag time (inventory) of distributors has a long shelf life, then yes, you're right. When supply does eventually catch up with demand, they will be forced to start lowering prices.
Until NVidia is capable of releasing a competing product, and since demand exceeds supply, however, AMD can more or less set whatever they want. While Distributors get squeezed a bit, if they're selling every board they make, there's not much of an issue. That's the market we're in today.
If it takes 6 months for Distributors to re-negotiate the die pricing they get from AMD, then AMD will have issues selling to Distributors.
In the short term, however, it's win-win for AMD and Distributors. Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkSince AMD and Nvidia both use TSMC, and since AMD has a less complicated die. I don't see how its a problem. ATI will be one step ahead the whole time.
If TSMC really is having trouble with their yields on AMDs die, Nvidia is going to struggle even more with theirs. AMD also has a possible future of using global foundries(SP?) Nvidia will be forced to use TSMC. Reply
JPForums - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkWhile nVidia has a much larger die thus lower yields due to both defects and unused wafer space, they will also be hitting the process much later. ATi has now used TSMC's 40nm process for 2 generations of chips (HD 4770 and the entire HD 5000 series). By the time Fermi launches, TSMC will have had several (five?) months more time to resolve the yield issues and the process will be much more mature. This should keep the costs much lower per area for nVidia compared to the costs AMD is seeing at the moment.
Of course it is up to nVidia whether to pocket the savings or pass it along to the customers. The bad news for nVidia is that, if the process matures the way it should, there won't be much of a drop in the cost of manufacturing the chips over the life of the chip. Reply
JPForums - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkWhile nVidia has a much larger die thus lower yields due to both defects and unused wafer space, they will also be hitting the process much later. ATi has now used TSMC's 40nm process for 2 generations of chips (HD 4770 and the entire HD 5000 series). By the time Fermi launches, TSMC will have had several (5?) months more time to resolve the yield issues and the process will be much more mature. This should keep the costs much lower per area for nVidia compared to the costs AMD is seeing at the moment.
Of course it is up to nVidia whether to pocket the savings or pass it along to the customers. The bad news for nVidia is that, if the process matures the way it should, there won't be much of a drop in the cost of manufacturing the chips over the life of the chip. Reply
SlyNine - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkAMD is currently making money off of the die. So even with the yields AMD is gaining ground.
Nvidia is selling a different, more complexe chip. The issues now will delay their GPU even longer. So even if it effects Nvidia slightly less the problems still transfer to Nvidia. Nvidia's chip is also a different die so they are currently facing the same problems ATI is, and some of their own. Reply
Ananke - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThey make double the profit margin than the previous Radeons, and they can completely absorb the price fluctuations until production ramps up. Btw, how come the lower end chips 5700 have enough volume, and the higher end don't. :) AMD is just being greedy, similarly to the AthlonX2 introduction 5 years ago. They have the experience with this technique already. It creates negative perception though - major problem for establishing brand loyalty. Reply
JPForums - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link(Quote)They make double the profit margin than the previous Radeons, and they can completely absorb the price.(/Quote)
(Quotes aren't working)
I tend to believe that the initial higher prices are the result of having a larger die, using a less mature process, and TSMCs apparent back step in yields. Larger die sizes are something that can only change with a new process. Though, TSMC's 40nm is older than their 55nm was when they launched the ATi HD 4800 series, it seems that it still hasn't reached adequate yields. Further, TSMC seems to have gotten worse rather than better. If AMD priced the chips with the assumption that yields would be 60% then their cost would go up considerably it they only managed a 40% yield. Chances are, AMD IS absorbing some of the cost with the anticipation that TSMC will resolve the issue sooner rather than later.
(Quote)AMD is just being greedy(/Quote)
The job of corporations is to make money. Being greedy is a given. However, the perception of greed is relative to their competition. All in all, I'd say nVidia and Intel appear more greedy than AMD. Just compare the launch price of the current undisputed single GPU champ (HD 5870) to the GTX280 when it launched. How about the HD 5850 vs the GTX260. Intel manages to stay close in price in the areas in which AMD is competitive. However, I have a hard time understanding how the Core i7-975 or even the i7-950 justify their price premium over the i7-920.
Will AMD follow the same pattern when they have the overwhelming advantage? They are currently on top with no real competition in the GPU space, and haven't yet come anywhere close. However, given enough time on top, I'd say yes. Lately, though, they haven't even kept up with the cost of doing business, so I tend to think their prices are artificially low to maintain market share. I hope it pays off in the long run as I like how prices have gone with good competition. Reply
SlyNine - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkOMG dude, you need availability before you can have great pricing. You're talking about a different situation , which will not change this one.
Changing the topic will not change the fact that AMD at this point in time cannot create more market penetration because of availability, so to improve profit margins ( what any good company does) they will have to raise prices, since they will sell out anyways.
I figured this might happen, it happened with the 8800GT. So I got mine early. Reply
Ratinator - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkHmmm.....this almost seems like the equivalent of a gas pump increase a few days before a long weekend. Isn't AMD almost ready to introduce the 5900 series.....maybe a little bit of profiteering before they have to lower the prices to make the 5900 series somewhat affordable. Reply
JPForums - Friday, November 06, 2009 - link(quote)maybe a little bit of profiteering before they have to lower the prices to make the 5900 series somewhat affordable.(/quote)
Perhaps, but it's hard to say that just yet. I tend to look at it as a rather intelligent method to lower demand to levels that they can keep up with at the moment. I'm not saying that the increased revenue wasn't a compelling motivator to support this hike, but before chalking it up to pure profiteering lets consider a few things.
Original MSRP => AMD Estimated MSRP
AMD didn't raise the price of the 5870. AMD raised the price of the 5850 by an amount that they think should only raise the cost of manufacturing by $20. Given that nothing about the manufacturing process changes, I think we can safely assume that the raised the price of the chip by about $20. Any further raises in price are done by board manufacturers and distributors.
Ryan Smith's Estimated Prices
(Arranged by performance descending)
If you assume Ryan and any colleagues that helped him come up with the estimated prices are correct, then you still end up in a price competitive situation. The GTX 295 is the top performer commanding $450, but the HD 5870 sits more or less in the correct price bracket given its performance. The HD 5850 sits at $300 after the price hike. However, the less powerful GTX 285 is still going for $350. If AMD used nVidia's pricing scheme, then the HD 5850 should go for a price closer to $370 and the HD 5870 should go for even more.
If AMD doesn't lower the price back down once supply exceeds demand, you could say that they are profiteering to some extend. We'll find out when the time comes.
Even if you take this as a guarantee, let's put this into perspective. When the GTX 260 came out, it's launch price was $400. Just like the HD 5850, it was a step down from the top of the line single GPU card, that beat the previous generation top of the line card. Yet it was priced the same as Ryan's estimated price hike of today's top of the line single GPU card. The GTX 280's launch price was $650.
For a more current example, nVidia is phasing out their GTX series cards. AMD is phasing out most of the ATi HD 4000 series. AMD is pricing them such that the best value in their lineup is probably the 4870/4890 (from a performance perspective). nVidia is keeping the GTX series prices the same as they were before the 5800 series launch, despite the fact that they are clearly dominated at these prices. They were smart about it, though, as they artificially limited supply to undercut demand at these prices. I'd say charging $50 more than the competition (post-price hike) for a card that underperforms compared to the competition is a little more deserving of the profiteering title.
On the same token, if prices don't come back down once supply solidifies, I still won't recommend them. Their are plenty of "lower-end" options like the HD 4870/4890 that can be crossfired for less money and deliver greater performance. The GTS 250 and lower end cards from nVidia (particularly the GTS 250) still hold good value for anyone with 1680x1050 resolution displays and smaller. Reply
rudy - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkEven if it is only to increase revenue what is wrong with that? AMD is in serious financial trouble if they expect to survive they need to make some money and while they have a hot product they should do it. If the price is high might as well have some of the money rather then allowing retailers to take most of the profit. Reply
James5mith - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkJust curious as I've always wondered about it.
When you are talking about the die for a GPU/CPU, is the correct plural dies or dice?
Dice seems so weird, since I associate it with gaming dice (d4,d6,d8,d10,d12,d20,etc.) But then again, the gaming items singular noun is die, and the plural is dice. Reply
johnsonx - Monday, November 09, 2009 - linkThis has been debated time and again on Anandtech, and I'm sure many other places as well. Years ago, Anand decided on 'dice'. I remain very sure that 'dice' is incorrect, but this is Anandtech, not Johnsonxtech.
For example, when coins are made a coin blank is stamped between two dies, one for the obverse design and another for the reverse design. These dies are never called 'dice', always dies. The same is true for any manufacturing or machining application of such dies - no one ever calls them 'dice'. No, I am not directly in that industry, but I have several clients that do casting and machining (mold making), and I've never once heard them talk about 'dice', only 'dies'.
'Dice' is correctly used when referring to a group of gaming dies together as a single unit. Multiple individuals separate from each other are still 'dies'.
CatchNathan - Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - linkWhen referring to silicone wafer, die, dice and dies are all valid, interchangeable terminology.
Die can mean one or more than one, but dice and dies always implies more than one.
I prefer dies, because it avoids confusion. Dice can also mean the action performed when you cut a wafer into multiple die(s). Reply
asgallant - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkThe plural of die (the thing you roll) is dice. The plural of die (a block of semiconductor material) is dies. Reply
yacoub - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkThis is correct, although even Anand and company frequently get it wrong and will argue for "dice". Reply
Griswold - Friday, November 06, 2009 - linkWrong. But i'll back it up with a book.
MadMan007 - Friday, November 13, 2009 - linkHmm some random book verus a dictionary, I wonder which is correct. Reply
gwolfman - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkI vote for dies. Reply
The0ne - Thursday, November 05, 2009 - linkAs I've said when you guys reviewed the 5870 a while back...I'm going to wait until the hikes die down :D Just keep watching Hot Deals just in case. Reply


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Ever wondered about the most efficient way to potty train your child? Watch this video and discover the Kohler touch!
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subset: commoncrawl


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Did you know?
In the late 18th century, great herds of buffalo regularly passed through the Kakamas area.
Kakamas is a thriving little village 90km west of Upington, on the banks of the Orange River in the Northern Cape.
As you look about at the enormous spreads of fruit – mainly peaches and grapes – you'll see a series of furrows being milled by old-technology waterwheels. Although they are popularly known as Persian Wheels, their original design comes from ancient Egypt.
One of Kakamas' most innovative residents, Piet Burger, adapted the waterwheel for local conditions and it is still used as a pumping device to get water to higher ground.
Thus was laid the foundations for a thriving fruit farming industry. Out of this emerged the famed Kakamas Peach (also known as the Collins Peach), which became the standard canning peach of South Africa. The 'Kakamas' is rich-yellow in colour, deliciously fleshed and perfectly shaped for canning. A single Kakamas peach tree is said to be the common ancestor of all trees supplying the South African peach-canning industry.
Then came the establishment of sultana crops (for raisins), followed by table grapes – now a major export from the area.
Kakamas is bustling and prosperous these days, but it has emerged from very humble origins. The 1895-97 drought was followed by the rinderpest, an agricultural scourge which ruined most of the farmers in the area. The government of the day decided to prepare this part of the Orange River Valley as a settlement for the poor.
The fertile river islands of Marchand, Zoetap and Neus were put under irrigation and most farming ventures turned out very well. Kakamas Township was established in 1931. Some say it's a Khoi word derived from 'gagamas', which means 'brown'. Others say it means 'vicious, charging ox' in an indigenous language. Either way, Kakamas and its old waterwheels now seem to face a happy future together.
Travel tips & Planning info
Who to contact
Kakamas Tourist Information
Tel: +27 (0)54 431 6300
Kalahari Gateway Hotel
Tel: +27 (0)54 431 0838
Orange River Wine Cellars (Wine-tasting & tours)
Tel: +27 (0)54 431 0830
How to get here
Kakamas lies approximately 90km west of Upington on the N14 on the way to Namaqualand.
Best time to visit
Spring (September-October) is best, and autumn (April-May) is lovely. Summers (October to March) in this area can be extremely hot, and winters (May to August), especially at night, can be very cold.
Around the area
German war graves, private game reserves, an adventure centre and the Riemvasmaak Hot Springs to the north.
Tours to do
Wine tasting at the Orange River Wine Cellars.
Get around
Most visitors to this area drive themselves. You can hire a vehicle from Cape Town or Johannesburg, or in Upington.
What will it cost
Food and accommodation along this route are inexpensive. It is still a relatively undiscovered and uncommercialised area of South Africa.
Length of stay
Depending on your next destination, Kakamas is an interesting overnight visit.
What to pack
Informal, rugged and weather-compliant clothing.
Where to stay
There are a number of accommodation options in and around Kakamas. The Kalahari Gateway Hotel is the most central.
What to eat
Fruits of the area and biltong make good picnics.
What's happening
Check the websites for event details.
Best buys
Sweet wines and fruit.


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Cee Lo Green's Backstage Rider Is a Buffet That Will Destroy His Diet
Cee Lo Green made a New Year's pledge to adopt a healthier lifestyle with the help of his partnership with eDiets. Well, judging by his backstage rider (the big reveal by TheSmokingGun.com), he's not going to make good on his promise.
In the document, Green's backstage food demands resemble a buffet menu at the Golden Corral. Among his requirements include rotating dinners of fish, rib-eye steaks and baked tuna depending on the day of the week. The 'Voice' judge also requests "baked lobster and macaroni cheese" and "24 fried jumbo shrimps" and "24 sautéed jumbo shrimps" as well.
Green's libations of choice are bottles of Ciroc vodka, Patron, Hennessy and cases of sodas, Corona and Grolsch beer. Oh, and for dessert, the crooner wants sweet potato pie and peach cobbler. Mmm, mmm good!
Now, we don't think all of this food is for Green, himself, however, none of it is particularly healthy. The quantities of liquor alone will pack on the pounds — and let's not get into the 48 different pieces of cooked shrimp.
If Green plans to stick to his diet he's not going to be successful with this high-caloric rider. In comparison, Nicki Minaj's tour rider is much healthier than Green's, although there are a few guilty pleasures on it (12-piece buckets of spicy fried chicken — we see you Queen Barbz!).
In the end, we still wish Green the best of luck on his weight-loss journey with eDiets. We can't wait to see the new and improved (and hopefully svelter) crooner in 2013.
Watch the Cee Lo Green 'It's OK' Video
Subscribe to PopCrush on


text:
When it comes to learning Adobe software and technologies there is a fantastic cornucopia of terrific choices out there: great books, in-person seminars, online webinars, weekend hands on intensives and much, much more. I'm a visual learner so when it comes to my own way of learning Adobe tools I tend to gravitate towards one of the super online video offerings from companies like: KelbyTraining.com, VTC.com, TotalTraining.com, AtomicLearning.com, Lynda.com or our very own Adobe TV.
With the exception of Adobe TV mentioned above all of these training companies offer deep discounted education pricing to educators who subscribe to their offerings and in my humble opinion they are a super value. But what if I told you there is another source of terrific online video training available on Adobe tools and to access the videos it won't cost you a dime?
Enter amazing prolific powerhouse Mike Skocko (pronounced skotch-ko) of Valhalla High School in El Cajon California who has produced and posted over 3,000 online video tutorials (no that's not a typo – 3,000 and counting!) covering a wide range of Adobe tools and technologies. Best part, they're totally FREE to watch and learn from. In fact Mike already has close to 300 videos on many of the current Adobe CS5 tools posted online and adds new ones daily.
Mike stated to me recently (and in the most humble way) he would have had near five hundred videos posted on the Adobe CS5 tools by now but since he was recently derailed by being accepted into Adobe's Education Leaders (AEL) program and simultaneously started work on a Masters Program along with his fulltime teaching duties at Valhalla High, he's only been able to add one video tutorial post per day. One per day!? Five per week!? Twenty per month!? Are you kidding me Mike!? I'm lucky if I can find the time to write three blog posts here on the Adobe Education Technologies Blog per month! So now dear blog readers you know why Mike has been picked by me as a Prolific Powerhouse Person here on our blog.
I encourage you to check out Mike's excellent videos on Adobe's software tools and share this great and free learning resource with your students and education associates far and wide.
The Mac Lab's Online Adobe Software Tutorials can be found HERE.
Check out a cool interview Mike conducted with one of his former Students HERE.


text:
Position Title: Senior Director - Television News
Date of Opening: 2012-09-12
Date Posting Expires: 2012-12-31
Company: PNS - WDIV-TV 4
FT/PT: Full Time
Location of Position: 550 West Lafayette Blvd. Detroit, Michigan
General Position Description: Senior Director - Television News
Responsibilities: Candidates must possess the creative skills to direct prime time newscasts and special programming. Must have strong knowledge of control room automation,ELC is a plus. Must be able to perform under pressure, meet deadlines and communicate well with crew and producers. Candidate will work with News, Programming and Engineering management on all station projects. Flexible schedule required, strong leadership and computer skills are requested. Note: All of the essential functions of this position are not necessarily described in this posting.
Qualifications: Prefer minimum 5 years experience in a major market directing newscasts. Degree in communications or related field desired. Qualified applicants must be motivated, creative and able to meet strict deadlines.
Comments: We are an Equal Opportunity Employer and will consider all qualified candidates regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, age, gender, marital status, disability, matriculation or affiliation. Any offer of employment is conditioned on successful completion of a pre-employment physical exam and drug screen, investigative background check, employment/education verifications and reference checks.
Contact Information:
Name or Department:
Tom Guida, Production Manager
Address: 550 West Lafayette Blvd. Detroit, Michigan 48226
Email: email@example.com
Telephone: 313-222-0624
Fax: 313-222-0471


text:
CES 2010 TV Trends - 3D, Ridiculously Thin and Connectedby Manveer Wasson on 1/9/2010 5:00 PM EST
- Posted in
- Trade Shows
35 Comments
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Galvin - Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - linkI'll wait until cannon comes out with their new tech that they won in court over or OLED comes out. I'd spend over 1K for a 24" OLED 1900x1200 computer monitor. For now I'll just hang on to my CRT. LCD panels them selves haven't changed in the last few years.
Davelo - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkWhatever happened to them? Reply
marc1000 - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkhas anyone noticed that these are the glasses from the 20 year old SEGA MASTER SYSTEM game console??? I had one of these, it worked with CRT TV's and at a uncomfortable slow refresh-rate (it depended on the interpolation of the TV to draw the images to the left and right eye, and eventually you could "see" the glasses opening and closing because of the slow refresh-rate), but given the current state of technology by that time, it worked great!
anyway, this is exactly the same technology, but it took 20 years to come from a rough implementation to an acepptable one. LOL!
PS: I believe the guys from SEGA deserve the rightfull citation as being the first ones to implement this active-shutter-glasses, and not NVIDIA, they just made a copy of it. Reply
kaborka - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkSorry to nag, Manveer, but "complimentary lineup" s/b "complEmentary" Reply
rudy - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkIf the stand to hold it up is huge. Clearly the one on the bottom has moved the electronics into the base. So how do you mount it on the wall. It always amazes me how dense consumers are. Unless you are putting a TV on a wall and flat against it there is no point in a TV that is less than 4 or 5 inches since you cant see behind it any way and the base is going to be at least a foot deep to hold it up. Yet they sell them like hot cakes. Reply
demonbug - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkOne of several things that has been driving me crazy since the push into LED LCDs is that they have been going for thinner rather than better. I would hazard a guess that all of these ultra-thin TVs are edge-lit, giving worse quality than back-lighting (which requires slightly thicker TVs).
I also hate, Hate, HATE the addition of all the internet-connected BS in these new TVs. I don't want any of that, and most people who are likely to buy these probably already have a source that does everything they do (Xbox 360, PS3, HTPC, whatever). Reply
medi01 - Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - linkI actually like network connectivity in TVs & internet crap in TVs. Provided it doesn't cost much (and it does not).
What I HATE HATE HATE though, is LED back-lit TVs called "LED TVs". Reply
strikeback03 - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkI don't know that the bottom one has electronics in the base, might just need the weight so it doesn't blow over. As for why, it is the "It looks cool" thing, what sells lots of stuff. Reply
FlyTexas - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkI don't want to get off on a rant here, but I am NOT going to wear glasses in my living room to watch fake 2.5D pictures.
This still isn't 3D, 3D would change the image depending on where I was sitting in the room.
Give us a real 3D image projected out in front of the TV, and I'll be impressed. Otherwise, this is just an attempt to raise the selling prices of current TVs.
Having just purchased 1080P LCD TVs in the last 2 years to replace our old tube TVs, it'll be another 10 years before we're ready to replace them again.
BTW, I watched "3D" back in the 80s at Disney World. This is not new technology, just slightly better because it uses active shutter glasses rather than the red/blue glasses. Same effect however... Reply
flexy - Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - linksorry to say you have NO clue what 3D tech nowadays is about. You cant even compare this what you saw "in the 80s". Do me favor see avatar or a recent 3D movie in Imax.
I myself already own a 50" 3d plasma. Real field sequential 3d will be the future, whether you accept it or not. Reply
cmdrdredd - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - link"sorry to say you have NO clue what 3D tech nowadays is about. You cant even compare this what you saw "in the 80s". Do me favor see avatar or a recent 3D movie in Imax.
I myself already own a 50" 3d plasma. Real field sequential 3d will be the future, whether you accept it or not."
I did watch Avatar in 3D at the iMAX and honestly wasn't impressed. The color and sharpness of the picture wasn't there. It was 3D sure, but it took the image quality away in the process. I want 1080p clarity and the color clarity of the best Plasma with a 3D image. If they can't do that, they failed. Reply
rbfowler9lfc - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkThat's like saying "I'm not playing DOOM, that's fake 2.5D pictures, this still isn't 3D" in 1993.
That's like saying "I'm not taking the Apollo 11, that's a fake spaceship, it would leave the solar system if it were a real spaceship" in 1969.
EVERYTHING has its time. NOW we have shutter glasses, maybe in 2020 we'll have cheap holographic, truly 3D TV sets. Reply
marvdmartian - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkDefinitely not worth upgrading solely for the purpose of getting 3D (or 2.5D).
Come see me when you can offer me 3D holographic projection in HD quality, and we'll talk. (think R2D2's projection of Princess Leia in Star Wars, only much larger and much much better quality). Reply
Zero110 - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkFlyTexas,
Just a counterpoint from someone who is interested in this tech (mostly for more immersive gaming). I don't understand how it would even be possible to display anything but a fixed perspective with live-action footage. The only way I know of to create 3d films is with a two-camera system, so I don't know how something like you describe would work.
With computer graphics, because the images are being generated, you could have something where the display changes based on your perspective. There are HUD systems (like those cheesy VR systems that were all the rage in the mid-90's) that track your head movements and change the perspective based on that information.
Yes, having to wear glasses is not optimal, but short of holodeck technology or possibly some sort of adaptive tracking system that shoots laser beams into each eye, I don't see how you can make a floating 3d display that isn't horribly washed out/not real looking, like those old sega holograph FMV arcade games. Reply
FlyTexas - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkOk, ok... so my post came off a bit ranty...
I'm just annoyed that they think we'll spend thousands to replace our brand new TVs.
Ok, granted, if you haven't upgraded yet, fine... But even then the price gap will still be there for awhile. You can get a really nice 46" 1080P LCD for under $1K. Some of these sets they are talking about are in the $2K price range.
As for the live action footage, you have a point, using normal motion picture cameras. I'm just making the point that real 3D is a projection into empty air and that the image changes depending on where you stand. (think Avatar, but using sampled information from the real world, rendered in real time by the computer, completly photorealistic in every detail, all it takes is lots of computer power)
What we have here is enhanced 2D, since it is giving you depth information in a 2D image.
Actually, I do see there are effects that can be done well with this, that actually might be harder with true 3D. You can create a depth of field greater than you have in the physcial room, something hard to do with a 3D projection, unless of course you have a back surface to project distances on (think the walls of the holodeck).
But we are a LONG ways off from that, so whatever... :)
Hmm, I got off on a rant again, didn't I? Sigh...
My two points are this...
1. I just purchased 1080P LCDs to replace my tube TVs, I'm not replacing them again for awhile.
2. I am not going to wear glasses in my living room to watch TV.
My 2 cents... :) Reply
flexy - Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - link>>
3D is a projection into empty air and that the image changes depending on where you stand
this will be a FAR, FAR way to go since as of now we still depend on what the camera (or computer) saw - there is not even a hypothetical way thinkable right now to "film" a scene with infinite view-points and then reproduce it in "real" 3d where you can walk around the scene as you like. (Say: holographic movie etc..etc)
That being said, the fact that CURRENT 3D will "only" reproduce what the director (respective the camera) saw is already a HUGE step compared to flat 2D. Dont forget that not many years ago 3d was really bad with red/green glasses...and its already come a long way..see avatar or the latest 3d imax movies.
As for the glasses....its funny how many people complain about the glasses....but then there are people who wear REAL glasses the whole day long <-- doesn't make sense, really. I don't consider the latest clear polarized 3d glasses such a big annoyance anymore, really. Its not that you need to wear a helmet or something.
Go show a little positive support for such exciting tech, instead of bashing it right away. 3D is a very cool thing and its getting better and better and more consumer-friendly.
cmdrdredd - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - link[Quote}As for the glasses....its funny how many people complain about the glasses....but then there are people who wear REAL glasses the whole day long <-- doesn't make sense, really. I don't consider the latest clear polarized 3d glasses such a big annoyance anymore, really. Its not that you need to wear a helmet or something.[/Quote}
If I wear glasses now, I can't wear 2 pairs of glasses comfortably. So your point is ill thought out. The problem is I need 6-8 pairs of these glasses at $50 a pop. That's a LOT of money just to watch TV. No thanks. I don't know about you but I don't always watch TV alone. Reply
rudy - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkA computer is a generated scene it is very easy for them to place "cameras" anywhere in the scene they want. This is why you can become spectators in game or view third person or any view you like. The bigger question is will drawing the same scene 3 times and doing some post processing to come up with the final image be able to be completed fast enough to keep FPS gamers happy. On older games I can see it being done easily but people don't pay to see 3D on old bad graphics they want to see it on the latest graphics. My personal belief is that games will be able to do it easier and better then movies can because the whole scene is artificial. Reply
bigboxes - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkYup. This 3D is still gimmicky. Those thin sets do look sexy and I'm all for it, but we really need a more thorough review on the picture quality and viewing angles. Plasma still wins hands down and I'm not sold on LCD even with LED backlighting. Was there any new OLED screens on display at CES? Reply
cmdrdredd - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - linkThe problem with 3D will be market adoption and penetration into homes. Not necessarily the sets themselves, but the content that you can get on them. If there's only 3 channels and it costs you an extra $10 for them on your Cable or SAT provider, that's going to be a hard sell. They need a 3D standard so that NBC, ABC, FOX, CBS and multiple cable networks like USA and TNT etc. jump on and produce shows that take advantage of 3D. Just watching a few nature showys on Discovery and some soccer games on ESPN is a joke. Reply
afkrotch - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkNot much point in doing a mini-review of a product that isn't out yet. Who know if they'll make changes to it before it actually releases. Best to wait. Reply
Dobs - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkSony had a 24.5" 3D OLED on display.
There was also a dell 'conept' xps laptop with a 16" oled.
I read somewhere that OLED will be cheaper in 2016 than any other technology, so still a while to wait it seems :(
I think Panasonic had a plasma. Sony and Pioneer have stopped making them.
Interesting this story states "Right now the price premium for 3D doesn't justify the experience"
..but I can't find any prices mentioned anywhere... let alone this story.
at80eighty - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkI feel your pain man. You should stick it to the Man by building a time machine & going to the future so you can have the last laugh on the terrible technorati holding us back Reply
vol7ron - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkI'll choose a 3D or 2.5D TV as opposed to a non-3D TV, if it comes down to me buying it.
I think you said it right, unlike computers where new technology is justified by better performance or less power, TVs are not price-justified based on the perceived experience.
TV technology is mainly considered if you've got ridiculous amounts of cash, or it's finally time to purchase a new one (the last one broke, it's a new move/new start, or you don't have one yet). In my opinion TV purchases are hardly ever bought as an upgrade to the current one, just because of the new technology - better picture just isn't that much better.
It's better to purchase cost-effective new technology that makes old technology more useful - that just doesn't happen with TVs. Reply
DigitalFreak - Saturday, January 09, 2010 - linkI'll be interested to see the reviews from the experts on PQ, etc. If the picture looks like ass, I don't care how pretty the TV is. Reply
rivethead - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkAgreed.
Give me the black levels of plasmas (Kuros), the color accuracy of LCDs, and the energy savings of LEDs.
Roll that all into one and you've got a buyer. Or many.
Quit f-in around with thinness and 3-D. Reply
Davelo - Monday, January 11, 2010 - linkI agree about the thin thing. I could give a rats ass about having a paper thin tv. I want picture quality at the best price. Seems to me that Samsung is trying to convince the market to pay for thin. Not me. Reply
medi01 - Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - linkI don't think it costs them much, on the other hand, for many it might be a selling point (you'd definitely prefer thinner one when choosing between 2 TVs, given the price/other features are similar)
By the way, why is Anand calling "LED backlit TVs" - LED TVs? Reply
mckirkus - Saturday, January 09, 2010 - linkWe quality geeks, saddened by the death of the Kuros, are following the new line of Panasonic plasmas over here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=12...">http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=12...
Looks like Panasonic bought the Kuro technology and is integrating it into the 2010 panels.
I agree, if it's 80 inches diagonal, 2 millimeters wide, and has 256 colors with motion blur I'm not buying it. Reply
vol7ron - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkThe images could be touched up, but if they are reliable, that's not the case. Reply
WRH - Saturday, January 09, 2010 - link
I'm all for thin and lite LED LCD TVs but not if they come with glossy screens. Can you tell us if any of the new thin TVs have matt finishes? New features and attractive design are nice but unless the new sets offer a display that looks better I don't think I'll be picking one up. Reply
mlah384 - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkI just bought the 55" Toshiba 240hz LED LCD TV and it does not have a glossy screen. Reply
vol7ron - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkBoth my monitors are glossy and they are hardly ever a problem. The problem exists when the display is not bright enough to compete with natural light, which there are solutions for. I, for one, am a fan of glossy displays -- they are attractive. When my monitor/tv is off, they have their own aesthetic qualities that exceed that of a matte TV.
However, in support of your statement, I am a fan of having options. I'd like the ability to choose both :) Reply
kmmatney - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkWhile I like glossy laptop monitor, large glossy displays like TVs can be a pain. I have a 50" plasma with a glossy screen, and lights reflected on the screen are very annoying. I can turn off the lights to solve the problem, but that is not always possible. T Reply
SnowleopardPC - Sunday, January 10, 2010 - linkmy netbook has a glossy screen and the glare and reflections are a huge turn off, but If I had a large multi touch tv..., unless it was some sort of really fine etched glass so the display "looks" glossy but has no reflection or glare problems, then matte it is... Reply


text:
About the Book
The exotic flavors and techniques of Moroccan cuisine give it a reputation for being complex—
a style of cooking that is out of reach and foreign to the ordinary cook. Ginette has a
contagious passion for her Moroccan cooking and would like to open the doors for you. In this
Quick Guide, she brings Morocco to you in a way that you can conquer. If you want to include
this kind of far-away cuisine in your repertoire—or if you only want to try it for a special
occasion—this book is for you!
Features & Details
- Category Cooking
6×9 in, 15×23 cm
64 Pages
- Publish Date Nov 22, 2011
- Tags moroccan cooking, morocco, cookbook, recipes, entertaining
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MIDDLEBURY –– Tears filled Gwen Buchanan's eyes as she discussed the improvement in her quality of life and happiness since coming to Project Independence, the senior day care program at Elderly Services Inc. (ESI) in Middlebury.
"When I first came here I was awful depressed with life and I just was discouraged," the Vergennes woman said. "I'm better now."
Buchanan is able to attend Project Independence because of her Medicaid insurance.
MIDDLEBURY — Former Project Independence Director Anne Ginevan harkened back to the launch of the senior day care program during the late 1970s.
The program — then run under the auspices of the Counseling Service of Addison County — provided basic recreational, nutritional and health care services to five elderly clients who gathered for around seven hours per day in the lower level of the Middlebury United Methodist Church.
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Shrimp Risottoby Robin Miller in Uncategorized, October 15, 2012
Risotto is a classic Italian dish known for its creamy texture and rich flavor. But eaters beware, that's surely not an innocent bowl of rice you're dealing with. I looked up the nutrition stats from some popular restaurants and check this out: One popular shrimp risotto had 620 calories, 30 grams of fat and 2,530 milligrams of sodium. A lobster risotto at a different restaurant had 1,103 calories and 25 grams of fat. Yet another joint served a cheese risotto with 1,280 calories and 110 grams of fat. Jeez, what kind of cheese are they using? Or is it the whole cow? The vegetable and lemon risottos scored a little better, but not much.
I found a way to lighten up shrimp risotto without taking away its creamy goodness. The key is quality ingredients and lots of stirring. I replace most of the fat with flavorful broth – beef broth. That might sound odd, but it gives the risotto a "surf and turf" quality. I add roasted garlic for depth of flavor and I stir frequently for the entire 20-25 minute cooking time (stirring encourages the starch and broth to create a creamy sauce).
For a more decadent version, fold in chunks of cooked lobster just before serving (let the mixture heat through if the lobster is cold).
Shrimp Risotto
2 teaspoons olive oil
1/4 cup diced shallots
2 tablespoons roasted garlic (sold in the produce section with the jarred fresh garlic)
1 cup Arborio (short grain) rice
4-5 cups reduced-sodium beef broth
1/2 pound raw medium shrimp, peeled and deveined
1 cup frozen petite peas (keep frozen until ready to use)
1/4 cup shredded Parmesan cheese
Salt and freshly ground black pepper
Heat the oil in a large saucepan over medium heat. Add the shallots and garlic and cook for 2-3 minutes, until tender. Add the rice and cook for 2-3 minutes, stirring frequently until the rice becomes translucent. Add 1/2 cup of the broth and stir until the broth is absorbed. Add another 1/2 cup of the broth and cook until the liquid is absorbed. Continue adding the broth, 1/2 cup at a time (add the next 1/2 cup once the liquid from the previous 1/2 cup is absorbed) for 20 minutes, until the rice is tender and the mixture is creamy, stirring frequently.
Stir in the shrimp, peas and parmesan cheese and cook until the shrimp are opaque and cooked through, the peas are warm and the cheese melts, about 2-3 minutes. Add more broth if necessary.
Season to taste with salt and pepper and serve.
Serves 4
Nutrition Info Per Serving
Calories: 328
Total Fat: 5 grams
Saturated Fat: 1 gram
Total Carbohydrate: 47 grams
Sugars: 2 grams
Protein: 23 grams
Sodium: 653 milligrams
Cholesterol: 91 milligrams
Fiber: 4 grams


text:
NetWellness is a global, community service providing quality, unbiased health information from our partner university faculty. NetWellness is commercial-free and does not accept advertising.
Tuesday, August 22, 2017
Senior Health
Geriatric psychologist
My mother in law will soon be 87 years old. She has a family history of alzheimer`s (her father and a sister both died from that disease). About 22 months ago - she fell and broke her hip. She has recovered from that - but, she has very little short term memory. We had an MRI performed on her about a year ago - the results of that test were that she has suffered a series of mini strokes. She fell again about 3 months ago and was sent to the hospital. Other than bruses - she had no serious damage. After she left the hospital - she was sent to a rehab center and returned home in about a month. She was home for one week and had to be returned to the hospital due to "panic attacks" she was experiencing. After a few days in the hospital - she went to another rehab center for about a month and was then transfered to a nursing home. She doesn`t remember the panic attacks, and is desperate to be allowed to return home. My wife and I don`t know what to do. We want her to have the best possible quality of life for the time she has left. However, we are concerned because she seems to be completely preoccupied with the idea of going back home. We do not consider her to be a risk for doing anything that would hurt her and we have been her primary care givers for 17 years - we would be willing to continue to go see her and take her food, fresh clothing, etc. two or three times a week. Having her move in with us is not an option. My question is - are there any tests to determine if an older person can or should be able to continue to live alone? She is currently in the dimentia unit at the nursing home and seems very out of place in that unit. Aside from her problem with short term memory loss - she is very alert and very sharp. Thanks for any help you can offer.
She seems to be at moderate risk to return home given her memory loss, falls, and recent anxiety history. There is no specific test to determine if she is safe to go home. The best judge is the clinical acumen of an experienced person who works with the elderly. This could be a nurse, social worker or a physician. Likely the nursing home could give helpful insight based on how well she is functioning in their environment. The best test" is a formal home evaluation usually conducted by an occupational therapist. Any home nursing agency or community elderly services program would know of one in the area.
One recommendation: have her screened for depression. She is at significant risk given all the recent changes and her deteriorating health. If she is depressed and successfully treated, her functional level may improve.
Elizabeth Joyner Gothelf, BSN, MAG
Assistant Director
College of Medicine
University of Cincinnati
Steven Bartz, MD
Assistant Professor
College of Medicine
University of Cincinnati


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Preparing For Future Software: AMD's Lightweight Profiling Proposalby Ryan Smith on 8/16/2007 12:00 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
11 Comments
Back to Article
MadBoris - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkI can't help but wonder what advantages this would have over Intel's existing open source TBB. Threading Building Blocks 2.0 seems to be a pretty robust runtime library to be able to do the hard work covering some of the most difficult things to manage currently...
Efficient parallelism.
Automatic load balancing.
Easier thread management.
Help with concurrency issues.
Plus Intels companion tools are awesome. Expensive but pretty nice.
TBB is also open source and multiplatform friendly.
I'm also curious to learn more about real world TBB experiences.
Anyway, it's good to hear more work is being done on this stuff and different approaches will always help.
We have a long way to go because as it is Quad cores and above will not really be leveraged like everyone assumes they will be. It will take more than market saturation of multicores for them to be used efficiently. Unless an application is manipulating data streams, which has an easily splittable workload, like encoding, rendering, compression, etc. then you really won't see the type of workload granularity from other types of applications in truly leveraging multicores. Core's beyond 2 will offer ever decreasing negligible results for quite a while in mainstream applications without some advances.
I hope to hear more about advances on this in future articles because as it is, it seems quad will be somewhat of a wall for us of any real beneficial performance, anything above that will really just serve as a good heater unless it's for a very specific application. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkLWP isn't intended to be competition for TBB, rather it augments it (at least as much as TBB is beneficial on an AMD chip). TBB is compiler and library help, an essential part of extracting maximum performance, but it doesn't include anything as far as application profiling goes. LWP is the final link as far as that goes, once TBB has taken you as far as it can, you break out profilers and start looking at what your code is doing that could be causing any more performance bottlenecks. Reply
JumpingJack - Sunday, August 19, 2007 - linkI think one of the points he is making is that this is really not a methodology or instruction set change that is used for multithreading, rather a HW based profiler which is only useful during product development.
Profiling is not new, so while AMD is proposing some unique intructions to get a realtime peak of the architectural state (profiling), it does not directly speed up multithreading by some new or novel algorithm. Basically, what AMD is proposing is pretty much already used at a software level to an extent. Reply
MadBoris - Sunday, August 19, 2007 - linkYeah, while profiling is necessary especially for multithreaded apps for optimizing and finding overhead, stalls, IPC issues, synchronized contention, etc., I'm far more interested in the core issues of leveraging cores for better parallel execution. Rather than a better topical ointment we need to address the core cause. Initially I had thought AMD was doing more than just profiling with the extra architecture, but that was due to my silly skimming.
I also mentioned TBB because I think it also may be worthy of an article someday, it is an intriguing route to the core problems developers are facing in multithreading in the future. I'm curious how well it works, from engineers feedback, something Anandtech would have access to. Making a thread and throwing it to another core today is all well and good in removing thread contention for primary threads and giving other threads more CPU budget, but lower level multithreading and parallel advantages are currently limited for most types of apps due to inherent limitations. That's the real core issue in multithreading, improving scaling and fully leveraging several cores.
I'm interested to see what AMD's methods may bring in improved performance and maybe ways to gather a few more tidbits of data, much still depends on the software element and how it will present the data and how robust it will be during development time. Who knows, maybe they are putting the horse out first then bringing in the cart next, it would be the right order of things. Having a HW profiler in place first would make it easier to produce and test, a HW based multithreading optimizing approach, which would be stellar someday down the road. Reply
MadBoris - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkMaybe LWP can lessen overhead w/ HW and even be more precise, as you say. Although their is a good bit you can retrieve in software, so it will be interesting to see what it is I am missing, maybe some deeper level CPU cache usage metrics maybe beneficial. Time will tell. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, August 17, 2007 - linkDude, do you even know what software profiling *is* ? I have no idea what TBB *is*, but I can tell you with 99.9% certainty is is not even remotely related(except perhaps that it is a set of instructions).
Direct quote from wikipedia:
A profiler is a performance analysis tool that measures the behavior of a program as it runs, particularly the frequency and duration of function calls. The output is a stream of recorded events (a trace) or a statistical summary of the events observed (a profile). Profilers use a wide variety of techniques to collect data, including hardware interrupts, code instrumentation, operating system hooks, and performance counters. The usage of profilers is called out in the performance engineering process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_analysis">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_analysis Reply
MadBoris - Friday, August 17, 2007 - linkThank you for the definition. I just finished saying I have used Intels profilers in profiling applications, so I may know.
As to TBB, it's a runtime tool for making threaded applications more efficient and easier to produce, not a profiler. I initially thought AMD's approach was going to be more than just profiling, but that's what I get for skimming articles. Reply
MadBoris - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkAnd of course the Intel Threading tools which work in cooperation with TBB are very robust as well, which have been around for a while. I've used the Thread Checker and Threading Profiler and I like them pretty well, pretty impressive actually, although you can incur some serious overhead with the profilers if your not careful.
The more the merrier, just was wondering what LWP was adding beyond what I was already familiar with on the Intel side. Reply
DigitalFreak - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkUnless Microsoft puts the boot to Intel again, I doubt Intel will jump on board. They have too much of a "nowhere but here" mentality. Reply
DeepThought86 - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkI think this article could have been written with 30% less words Reply
Justin Case - Thursday, August 16, 2007 - linkBut then there wouldn't be enough pages for the ads. :) Reply


text:
A DRIVER had a lucky escape when his car flipped over and landed on its roof after it is is believed he lost consciousness at the wheel.
The car, a blue Volkswagen Golf TDI, was thrown onto its roof during the smash in Malvern Road, St John's, Worcester near the BP garage on the roundabout.
The casualty could be seen being treated in an ambulance when your Worcester News arrived. The windscreen of the car had been smashed on impact and police with cars and blue lights running coned off the road near the entrance to the garage, stopping cars gaining access to Malvern from the roundabout. Other officers stopped traffic coming from the opposite direction which were directed to turn around in a side road. It is also believed off-duty paramedics stopped to help the casualty while others gathered at the scene to observe or see if they could offer help.
A spokesman for West Mercia Police said: "We were called at 1.30pm today to Malvern Road, Worcester to a one vehicle road traffic collision where the car overturned. A male driver, 43 years old, is believed to have lost consciousness at the wheel. The driver was conscious and breathing after the incident. His injuries are not believed to be life threatening. The vehicle was a blue VW Golf. "
A spokesman for the West Midlands Ambulance Service said they received a call at 1pm about an overturned car and dispatched an ambulance and a rapid response vehicle to the scene.
He said: "There are no details of any injuries which usually means they are minor." He was taken to Worcestershire Royal Hospital in Worcester.
West Mercia Police is appealing for witnesses to the crash. Those with information can call police on 101, quoting incident number 0287S 190814.