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Battlefield 4 Mantle Performance Previewby Ryan Smith on 2/1/2014 12:40 PM EST
135 Comments
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Wreckage - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkWeren't there people blaming EA for the delay?
" A 7-10% performance increase is not a dramatic difference"
Can any of that increase be from the new driver? I mean you would expect that from a new driver. Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - link"Can any of that increase be from the new driver? I mean you would expect that from a new driver."
This is Cat 14.1 versus Cat 14.1. So it's exclusively from enabling Mantle. Reply
Wreckage - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThanks for the quick response. I did not realize there were two versions of the 14.1 driver. (Or was is just a enable/disable thing? Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkIt's an enable/disable thing. The option is in Battlefield 4.
http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4... Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCan you post 2C/2T 3 GHz results as well??? Reply
kwrzesien - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkOr better yet 2C/2T 2 GHz results, something to really simulate an older/weaker CPU. Reply
chekk42 - Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - linkPerhaps interesting from a "what if" perspective, but unrealistic as no serious gamer would run a 290x on a CPU that weak. One does not pair a $500 GPU with a $100 CPU unless it's for mining. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - linkWhy not, if Mantle makes that playable? I've been playing COD Ghosts on a Core 2 Duo 2.66GHz E8500, and an E7300 before that. Do you know why? Because that's one of the gaming machines I have! Both were above minimum requirements but I do want to make a new build for that now as it is certainly underpowered. I had already upgraded the video card which is much easier, but now I'll have to replace CPU, mobo, memory, reinstall OS and all software. Reply
Owls - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkIf he was talking about nVidia then the 7-10% performance increase would be dramatic. But since it's AMD it doesn't count. Objectivity, get some. Reply
dragonsqrrl - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCool it fanboy, cool it. We all know AMD gets the free pass on things way more often than any other tech company out there because they're the underdog, and well... because of people like you. If Nvidia or Intel had announced up to 50% performance boosts in the months leading up the release of their new API, then missed their target release window twice, and then these results came out, I'm pretty sure it would've been declared a failure by the community on the spot. Hell, if Nvidia had even announced Mantle the same way AMD did it would've been over before it began. But since it's AMD, it doesn't count. Objectivity, get some. Reply
Plesman - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkObjectively: I think it was EA who caused the delay. They wanted to fix the other bugs in Battlefield 4, before they wanted to finish implementing Mantle.
Objectively: Everybody promises the biggest "up to" performance boosts all of the time don't they? Reply
TheJian - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkNo, AMD's beta driver came 2nd, the BF4 Mantle patch was first. And since it's STILL a beta driver we're still waiting on AMD's finished product here right?
I'm unimpressed. I have no intention of buying anything less than quad core Intel today, and a high end card on top so would yield about what every driver rev gives in games.
Johan Andersson said they worked for 2years with AMD on Mantle for Frostibe3, so I doubt many will use this if AMD isn't paying them. Such a small market, and earns you NOTHING above everyone else. You can't charge more for an AMD game buyer vs. everyone else. You are essentially coding to speed up some people that won't give you a dime. Maybe if they start selling Mantle patches for games for $5-10 we'll see it used. AMD can't afford $8mil per game, or even $2mil.
I'm guessing Nvidia is prepping their response to AMD's proprietary Mantle as we speak. I don't think they want it used really, but it's what you'd do to get Mantle killed. Just put something out there so nobody wants to code for either then let them both get killed. We need games in OpenGL, WebGL, HTML5, Java etc that are portable to everywhere in days or weeks. Not MONTHS or years. Making anything Mantle is the same as DirectX. It isn't easy to port from either to anywhere else. Nobody wants to code for DirectX (xbox1), Mantle, then to OpenGL (ps3/ps4), then to whatever on mobile, then port to PC (a game made on consoles is hard to port from Directx, but easier from PS3/PS4 OpenGL now that K1 is coming out for mobile).
Any time wasted on Mantle junk, takes away from the GAME itself. Think about it. If you could possibly code ONCE (say openGL) and run everywhere you get a ton more sales, and have a lot more resources to say, making a 30hr game vs. today's 7-15hr games. You might have the money to put into a decent AI for your game etc.
Now that steam will be pushing linux, you have yet another reason to use OpenGL etc that can port easily to anywhere. This was a waste of money by AMD. They should have spent this on avoiding the phase1,2,3 (more?) drivers this year and last, and on making better GPU's (290/290x was a botched launch and hardocp says this chip wasn't really designed for 28nm and needs 20) and also enhancing the CPU's. Instead we got console crap (which also stole from gpu/cpu/drivers) and Mantle that they just can't afford to support, along with Free-Sync which may never even come out as AMD even said it isn't a product for market yet, if ever. Reply
Inteli - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkLast I checked, AMD offered Mantle to Nvidia for use. It really isn't proprietary. Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkIt's proprietary, the SDK and source code isn't available for download and AMD has said it might be open to releasing/licensing it to other IHVs at some point in the future.
AMD's talk about opening up to other IHVs is just lip service so they don't sound hypocritical after beating the Open standard drum for so long and to help alleviate industry concerns by likening it to an "open standard". Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkMantle can run on anyone's hardware, it's just that no one else has an architecture design like GCN that would actually support it. It's the same reason that Mantle doesn't run on AMD's older GPUs. Reply
chizow - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkSo in other words, it's proprietary to GCN, just as I stated. Reply
Mstngs351 - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkAndy why wouldn't they offer it to Nvidia to use? It would be like handing someone who only reads/writes English an instruction manual written in German. They cant use it.
If Mantle offered the widespread support of DX or Ogl then I'd be more excited. Sadly I fear that with only moderate gains (when you need them) it will fall by the wayside like other fast API's already have. I suppose if it's build is close enough to console API's then we might see enough support (developers tend to do the least work they can get away with) for it to be successful. Reply
Mstngs351 - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkAndy should have been "And"... Please tell me your name is Andy, because that would likely be the most serendipitous moment of my day! Reply
daniel142005 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCan OpenGL implement these optimizations? If it's abstracted by a good graphics engine/api then it wouldn't affect the game designer. Frostbite is a full blown game "engine" for game designers, but if they can do it why can't it be implemented into OpenGL for game developers? Reply
jwcalla - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkJohn Carmack made the claim that you can get similar (to Mantle) draw call performance in OpenGL with certain NVIDIA extensions... FWIW.
One of the problems for developers is that there's a lot of pressure to target the lowest common denominator. Even in OpenGL we see this; e.g., targeting something like OpenGL 3.x, etc. Reply
DarkXale - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkMantle is a separate renderer, not something "tacked on". You have D3D, OpenGL, and Mantle.
But yes, you can have OpenGL & Mantle as options just as readily as D3D & Mantle, or D3D, OpenGL, and Mantle. Its all dependent on how much development time you are willing to invest. Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - link"If it's abstracted by a good graphics engine/api then it wouldn't affect the game designer."
That's the entire point of Mantle, to remove the abstractions from the API that prevent the developers from getting the most out of the hardware. Reply
testbug00 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - link1. Mantle cost is 2-3% of a games budget.
2. Nvidia has no response, that is why they talk about how openGL can do stuff like enable more frame rates.
3. even if Nvidia has a response it won't do anything. __Mantle only works because the consoles both use AMD GCN GPUs__ which mean programmers are already programing GCN close to the metal.
4. Mantle closely remembers options the PS4 uses, it is not as close to the Xbox One due to the ESRAM. You also realize that the K1 is not going to be on any real mobile devices? What did Nvidia talk up with the K1? Oh, yeah, __CARS__ and how those are the future. Remember the Tegra 4 comparisons to the PS3/Xbox 360... Oh, yeah. Not to mention power draw.
5. Time "wasted" on Mantle is small compared to everything else. Especially when you realize mantle is extremely similar to the coding done for the PS4 and fairly similar to the Xbox One.
6. You do realize that "console crap" is such a stupid thing to say.
7. You do know that "free-sync" isn't some proprietary technology? It is supported by VESA. You know, the group that is the de facto leader in what monitors and such use.
8. You do realize that AMD didn't make Mantle because it decided to. It did so because developers asked for it. Reply
testbug00 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkOh, I should have added that Mantle is still in Beta. The release date for Mantle being fully fleshed out is sometime 2015 iirc. Reply
loguerto - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkActually Mantle is very similar to ps4 low level APIs so porting games form the console to Mantle should be much easier than porting them to direct x, or at least it wont take much more time for compiling the libraries in both APIs. Console low lever APIs however are completely different from high level pc APIs, directx and opengl need a lot of optimization when games are ported from either consoles. Besides, Mantle was demanded by the developers because as they have said, direct x crap is heavily blocking them from expanding their vision for newer video games, they have made the same demand to nvidia but amd was the only one to take action, for now. You should really take a look at the mantle presentation made by oxide, because you have a lot of wrong/contrasted ideas if compared with what i heard form expert developers. Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkWow, you program for the consoles? I'm intrigued...
From what I remember the ps4 uses opengl and the Xbox uses DX. Hmm, seems obvoise to me that they are not the same. Reply
PacificNic - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkMantle is definitely not proprietary. nVidia has the option to implement it so.... Stop fanboying and do some research? Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - link@PacificNic: Maybe you should take your own advice? But no need to believe me, take it from AMD's Director of Devrel:
"The plan is, long term, once we have developed Mantle into a state where it's stable and in a state where it can be shared openly [we will make it available]. The long term plan is to share and create the spec and SDK and make it widely available. Our thinking is: there's nothing that says that someone else could develop their own version of Mantle and mirror what we've done in how to access the lower levels of their own silicon. I think what it does is it forges the way, the easiest way," explained Mr. Corpus."
Summary: Mantle is proprietary. I know AMD has been feeding you the Open Standard mantra far too long, but it does help to read and think critically for once. Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkDo you believe everything and says.
I know sure as hell I don't believe everything nvidia says. Reply
JDG1980 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkAMD is selling every 290/290X they can make, and these cards are so much in demand that they are going for well above MSRP. If that's a failed launch, what would a successful one look like? Reply
Omegaclawe - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkI think you might have a few misconceptions, here. First of all, AMD isn't going to pay per game. That would just be silly. The developers aren't going to, either. Instead, AMD pays the people who make the engines (e.g. EPIC for UE3/4, DICE for Frostbite). They do the work once, and then the vast majority of developers don't have to touch it. That's kinda the whole point of an Engine, so you don't have to do that work and can focus on the game.
Incidentally, changing just the rendering backend really isn't difficult at all. It's only about 6000 lines of code. Once you throw in cross platform methods for input, sound, multitasking, etc, it becomes a significant amount of work, but mantle by itself is something like a man-week's worth of work. Maybe a man-month, if significant debugging is required.
On top of that, for heavy CPU-based games (like what oxide studio's trying to do) the CPU resources freed by Mantle enable you to do things you couldn't with DirectX / OpenGL. It also can vastly improve the play experience by preventing CPU spikes from interfering with the rendering and can help with frame pacing. Ultimately, the games probably feel like they're getting more than an 8% FPS boost... which is still more than the difference between an R9 290 and a Titan, but people were willing to pay an extra $600 for that.
Mantle isn't perfect, though. The CPU usage boost is nice, but that 8% or so GPU increase absolutely locks AMD to the GCN architecture, which means they can't make significant strides, like Nvidia has between, say, Fermi and Keppler, without losing the mantle advantage over Nvidia.
Honestly, what needs to be done, probably, is just taking OpenGL and take the heavy lifting off the driver's hands and shifting it to the program itself. You'd get the same CPU boost but with wider hardware support.
As far as WebGL, HTML5, and (ugh) Java go, these platforms tend to offer less security and tend to be absolutely terrible at multithreading. Java especially, the buggy piece of junk it is. Frankly, you could not make Crysis 3 in Java. If you wanted to make it run on Java, you'd probably need a high-end machine from circa 2020. Do you want all your games to look like they're from 2008 right now? Nooo? Then dont' develop for Java!
I also seriously doubt Nvdia is developing a "Mantle killer" in any large capacity. No doubt they've looked into it, but considering how much better their drivers tend to be at managing the CPU and wot, they would not get as large of boost from Mantle, Nvidia almost never does open type designs willingly, and they're not the first to this market. Mantle would need to provide a consistent 20%+ bonus before I can see Nvidia really trying to tackle it.
As far as Free-Sync vs G-Sync is concerned, I imagine it'll be something along the lines of CUDA, where the Nvidia-specific solution is actually inferior, but popular because of marketing and because it was "first". Still, Nvidia cards will undoubtedly be able to support both, whereas G-Sync monitors will only work with Nvidia cards, so they'll make some money that way... and I wouldn't exactly call G-Sync market ready, either. Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkAmds PR has brain washed you. Beyond fixing Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkTl;dr
Have you heard of the maxwell arm chip? Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkNvidia ARM anything makes me laugh. Reply
Kaleid - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - link"hardocp says this chip wasn't really designed for 28nm and needs 20) and also enhancing the CPU's. "
It's fine at 28nm, but needs a better default cooler. Reply
rvalencia - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkPS4 uses GNM API/PSSL which claimed to be similar to Mantle. Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkBy amd right?
And just because it is similar, doesn't mean it is easy to program for.
That's like saying I wrote a program in c; so it must be like copy and paste to java?
They're similar, but not the same. Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkEvery driver rev produces a 7-10% performance increase? And I've been replacing my hardware all these years! Silly me!
Developers have been asking for a lower-level API for years. OpenGL isn't any lower than DirectX. I fail to see what kind of major advantage SteamOS is going to have over DirectX or Mantle. In fact, the stuff that you're saying about Mantle actually applies MORE to SteamOS: developers have to waste time and resources porting their code over Linux and OpenGL in order to support a software platform that is fragmenting their PC userbase. OpenGL has been around for years and still isn't commonly used for PC games. Ever wonder why that is?
Dice releases a patch for a DirectX game that improves performance anywhere from 7-30%, or possibly more for slower CPUs. Seems like a no-brainer. Especially when considering that the paradigm that this benefits matches the new consoles exactly. To me, it seems that SteamOS is has much more to overcome than Mantle.
If Mantle gains support, then there won't be any reason to buy expensive Intel CPUs for gaming computers that don't need them. Not that there is a good reason as it is, since most games aren't really CPU-bound with modern CPUs anyway, as these benchmarks clearly indicate. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - link@TheJian - uhhhh did you notice the performance increase? Because your comment made it sound like there is none. That could be a reason why developers would want it. It's a competitive advantage, not something like hypothetically trying to charge more for AMD users vs everyone else. And you probably could charge more if your game runs better, and you can make the graphics look better... or you could keep it the same price and just enjoy the broader gamer base it enables. Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkHow could you possibly think that when EA launched Mantle update on time, while AMD has repeatedly delayed their driver launch the last few days, constantly changing support levels and acknowledging "nasty bugs" that prevented their Mantle driver from releasing? Reply
Gigaplex - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkOn time? EA was late with the patch, it was due last year. Reply
chizow - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkAnd EA/DICE had builds of Mantle running then, clearly AMD's drivers were the ones that weren't ready, as evidenced by huge outstanding Mantle buglist and feature-support vacancies. Reply
Black Obsidian - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkNo doubt EA had builds of BF4 running before its own launch, and yet despite that it was far from ready (or stable, or functional) when it launched.
Has builds running =! Has builds running WELL Reply
chizow - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkWhich is neither here nor there, given EA hit their targeted launch date of January while AMD was scrambling through the weekend and still only managed to launch a very shaky, buggy driver. Reply
looncraz - Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - link"And EA/DICE had builds of Mantle running then, clearly AMD's drivers were the ones that weren't ready, as evidenced by huge outstanding Mantle buglist and feature-support vacancies."
By that logic, AMD also had a driver running then - since that is a prerequisite for EA/DICE having BF4-Mantle ready.
Hmm.. guess not. Anyway, the real story is that BF4 bugs were more problematic than expected, so man-power was dedicated to repairing those bugs. Mantle was delayed by EA/DICE in case there were compatibility issues with the bug fixes. In this time, Mantle and AMD were in close communications, and AMD took the time to more carefully evaluate the drivers.
It's what joint product development always experiences. One party has a delay, so the other takes the time to improve their product. This happens inside each company as well as between the two companies. Reply
chizow - Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - linkYes of course AMD had a driver ready, and as we have seen, it is buggy and full of support holes. None of which changes the fact EA hit the targeted release of January and AMD did not. Not sure how this is so hard to understand. EA released on Thursday with Mantle support, AMD did not release until Saturday (February 1) due to their own admissions of "a nasty bug". And that's before you get into their own huge outstanding buglist and reports of performance regression in other titles besides BF4.
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/Man... Reply
grndzro77 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkUm...Wood screws? Driver crashes? Burning cards? Mass rebranding & lies?
NV gets it's share of free passes too. Reply
eSyr - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkFermi announce, anyone? "It will likely be on a Tuesday." Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkNo I think most Nvidia users would discourage Nvidia from developing a whole new API for a meager 7-10% gain in GPU limited situations, resources better used elsewhere (G-Sync, GameStream, GameWorks, PhysX, 3D Vision etc.)
I think Nvidia is listening to the devs they had on their GeForce panel back in October. While Johan Andersson clearly wanted a low-level API like Mantle, no one really seems to want to turn back the clock to the days they had to support multiple renderers for every IHV on the same platform. Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkWhat a joke. Nvidia users crow about any kind of performance advantage they can. I've even heard a few of them try to explain why a performance disadvantage was actually a GOOD thing. Anyone with a brain knows they'd jump at the chance to brag about something like this. Reply
chizow - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkNot really, 7-10% is what one might expect from a big driver update or optimization, not a 2 year project to build an API from scratch for a small % of vendor-specific hardware.
If AMD feels this is how to best use their resources to the benefit of their customers, more power to them. I think as an Nvidia user I am much more interested in Nvidia's efforts to work within existing APIs like DX and OpenGL and focusing their close-to-metal efforts in hardware, ie. their embedded Denver core in upcoming Maxwell. Another example would be G-Sync, which focuses on improving frame quality especially at low FPS, which would provide a benefit in every game instead of just a handful that require specific hardware, API, or dev support of that API.
I certainly don't want the industry to move to multiple vendor specific APIs, that does no one any good and would certainly be step backwards to the days every game had to support multiple vendor-specific APIs and codepaths. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - linkWould Nvidia users discourage Nvidia from developing a new API for a 30% gain in CPU limited situations? Hell no. Would Nvidia do it? Yes probably since that's a pretty big performance advantage. However they don't make CPUs so they don't have the demand on both sides like AMD does.
You just cut out a small slice of the picture (of course the minimum performance advantage), and used that to argue against it, and even then I don't agree. Reply
chizow - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - linkWould I discourage Nvidia from developing an API for larger gains in unlikely scenarios??? Absolutely! It's a big performance gain in scenarios that are unlikely to occur (slow CPU + fast GPU) or unlikely to majorly benefit in the real world (low resolution/settings or multi-GPU already at high framerates).
I would certainly prefer the alternative that Nvidia took, developing new technologies like G-Sync that can improve frame and image quality at ANY FPS in ANY game that uses Nvidia hardware.
There's also growing evidence that Nvidia took the steps to improve their drivers in existing APIs that AMD did not, mainly with support of Deferred Contexts and Command Lists in their DX11 Multi-threaded Rendering implementation. It has been known for some time AMD does not support these features while Nvidia does and the evidence is clear, even with Mantle, comparable Nvidia hardware running DX11.2 MTR (Win8.1) is faster.
http://techreport.com/review/25995/first-look-amd-... Reply
Gasaraki88 - Thursday, February 06, 2014 - linkHate fanboys like you. So far it seems like Mantle works best in certain scenarios. If I have to run my games in low settings to get a 25%+ increase in FPS, who cares. 180FPS+ to 210FPS+ is nothing anyone should care about. What matters is good cpu with good card and if they can increase performance by 25+% then that good. 7-10% is not good enough to have the developers just spend time to make a Mantle API. Developers not not even using DX11 fully yet, it will take them forever to use Mantle. If AMD can't make Mantle API also run on nVidia hardware then it's useless. Reply
Slomo4shO - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThank you Ryan, the Battlefield 4 Tashgar benchmarks at 4.2GHz seems to be an anomaly... Did you transpose the numbers? Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI'm assuming you're referring to the performance regression with low quality settings. No, that number has been double checked. Reply
Slomo4shO - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkYes, I was referring to the low quality settings. Hmm those are odd results... Reply
rtsurfer - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCan we expext a proper Review with AMD FX line CPUs & APUs & Nvidia 780 &780 Ti sometime later this week..?? Reply
bj_murphy - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCan't do a 780/780Ti Mantle review, it doesn't run on Nvidia cards. However, I agree with you on hoping for some AMD FX series CPUs as well as APUs compared here. Reply
Fetzie - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkYou can, however, say "nVidia cards got x result in this benchmark. AMD cards with DX11 got y result in this benchmark. AMD cards with Mantle got z result in this benchmark". So long as the benchmarks remain the same, you can still compare performance numbers just the same as comparisons up until now between AMD and nVidia cards.. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - link+1 Reply
davidgoscinny - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThis reminds me of 3DNow! on their CPUs years back. Lots of potential, most of it unfulfilled unfortunately :-( Reply
JDG1980 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - link3DNow was basically an earlier version of SSE, with the disadvantage that it re-used the MMX register file instead of adding new registers. Once SSE became standard and AMD adopted it, 3DNow became redundant - why make something AMD-specific when you can as easily make a version that has performance just as good and works on both Intel and AMD chips? Reply
chizow - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkYep great point, and to finish off that corollary as it relates to Mantle, why make an API that is AMD-specific when you can come up with a solution that works on Intel, AMD, and Nvidia chips?
I think the upcoming DX11.x enhancements from Microsoft may very well make Mantle irrelevant for the same reasons you've already outlined:
"We're also working with our ISV and IHV partners on future efforts, including bringing the lightweight runtime and tooling capabilities of the Xbox One Direct3D implementation to Windows, and identifying the next generation of advanced 3D graphics technologies." Reply
davidgoscinny - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkWell when AMD adopted SSE in their CPUs, they were offering parts that were as fast if not faster than equivalent Intel CPUs. It took great performance and made it better.
3DNow! was in the K6/K6-2/K6-3 days and their FPU performance was so bad, 3DNow! was the only way to get decent performance in many games. It's a moot point now anyways but I'm just reminded of that situation when I read about Mantle. Reply
YukaKun - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkBecause companies won't invest on new stuff unless they see the actual usefulness of it.
In this case, 3D Now! was a spit to MMX, so Intel developed SSE1 to counter it. AMD has like 1/8th the push factor Intel has, so no one adopted 3D Now! and the rest is just history.
Same with MANTLE. We had Glide back in the day, 3DFX proprietary, but devs loved it. Now dev ask for the same, MANTLE appears and everybody seems to give it the backslash, even when AMD says anyone can use it if they want. Not open, but at least AMD won't deny access to it to whoever wants to use it. I don't know if they'll charge a petty penny for it, but at least I guess they need to keep the fee very low so it catches up. If Intel or nVidia don't want to adopt it, it will be because they are suckers. Irony is that 3DFX was bought by nVidia and they never got a proper Glide initiative, because it wasn't profitable to push their own standard even if devs asked for it.
Cheers! Reply
Margalus - Monday, February 17, 2014 - linkglide died because it was proprietary, just like mantle, it was superb, but too costly to develop for it and non proprietary api's. developers did NOT want to develop for multiple api's. now amd is trying to go backwards so that developers will have to spend more time and money developing for multiple api's again, not a good thing Reply
Juppi - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI think Mantle-performance gonna shine in real 64-players Multi player CPU-bound scenarios where GPU is waiting om CPU.
look at these numbers :
Direct3D 11.1 Mantle
Siege Of Shanghai (720p) 65,4 avg / 52 min 116,1 avg / 88 min
Siege Of Shanghai (1080p) 63,8 avg / 49 min 112,2 avg / 81 min
Siege Of Shanghai (1080p, 4x MSAA) 57,7 avg / 44 min 78,2 avg / 63 min
Siege Of Shanghai (2160p) 48,9 avg / 38 min 52,2 avg / 41 min
64 Spieler, Ultra Details (Core i7-3770K, 16 GB DDR3-1333, Radeon R9 290X @ 1.000/2.500 MHz, Windows 8.1 x64, Catalyst 14.1 Beta)
http://www.golem.de/news/amds-mantle-api-im-test-d... Reply
hfm - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI had the same thought, it's going to be a boon for games with a ton of players such as large online matches, hectic MMO battles or strategy games with tons of units. Good to see the theory validated.
There's nothing but good things that can happen optimizing the rendering pipeline in this manner, and this is just the first step. Reply
Alexvrb - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkAgreed. Busy multiplayer titles will see a large benefit, but most benches will focus on single player scenarios. Low end CPUs will also benefit. So it gives affordable i3 and AMD chips a boost in budget gaming. Nothing wrong with that.
I'd like to see support for Mantle in strategy games, for certain. Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - link"Low end CPUs will also benefit. So it gives affordable i3 and AMD chips a boost in budget gaming."
And I think most importantly, consoles as well. Although Microsoft has already stated that Xbox One won't support Mantle. But they do sport the same kind of low-CPU/high-GPU setup. Reply
Pantsu - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkThe consoles have down to the metal APIs, they don't need Mantle. All the benefits have already been in use there. That's why you hear people like Carmack saying consoles are 2-3x faster with the same hardware. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - linkAgree, I want to see this too as it directly affects me, multiplayer FPS games, and I have been CPU bound. I'm upgrading now but I obviously see a need for it as it happened to me. I could have waited out one more generation of games if I had this CPU bound improvement! Reply
colinisation - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkRyan,
Will Mantle serve to reduce microstuttering, have you seen any such indication from this preview or will we have to wait till the full article.
Thanks Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkFor that you're going to need to wait for the full article. That analysis is not yet complete. Reply
Pantsu - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkThe devs will have more control over things like that with Mantle so you should expect that supporting games would have better control over their performance problems like micro stutter. Reply
whyso - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkNeed to test with a Nvidia card too on those settings to see if Mantle is really a solution to a problem or its simply AMD drivers that hate DX. Reply
tipoo - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkAs expected, what this helps most is the weaker CPUs. This should be good for AMD APUs, if Mantle takes off. It also shows what not using high level APIs in consoles can do to the lower end Jaguar cores they use. Reply
Viewgamer - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkRyan have you enabled/disabled the cores via the BIOS or inside the windows environment (with Task Manager).
Is it possible that Mantle can bypass the core affinity settings in Task Manager?
I'm asking because the performance scaling with cores & frequency seems strange.
I would also love to see a performance comparison with more CPUs, to see if Mantle levels the playing field between AMD & Intel CPUs. Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkIt's disabled at the BIOS level. Reply
MugatoPdub - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThanks for the prelim, I have to add however; I don't see how a 4960x and a 290x are the most "wanted" items to benchmark. I can wait, but I would believe most people would like to see benchs on mainstream hardware, i.e., R9 270x and an FX-6300 w/ 8GB, SSD. Or R9 280x and i5-4670k w/ 16GB. These are the most common setups. Reply
junky77 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI think you should try and test BF4 on a multiplier scenes with a lot of players in one place. It might be more interesting for many and it stress the CPU more in some cases
Also, please test BF4 with some midrange AMD CPU Reply
Ian Cutress - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkHow do you propose we make that into a repeatable and honest benchmark, then do it over a dozen (or dozens) of setups and settings? Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkOffline Multiplayer?? You know, like Counter Strike. Reply
junky77 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkyou obviously can't repeat it identically (unless there is some replay option) and it will take maybe too much time. but :
1. You can test the same map with same number of players, as I'm sure you would
2. Run your character through the same path in the map, running into a lot of people. You should be dead quickly enough and be respawned, so maybe it will require reasonable time to test
3. Even getting a consistent minimal FPS could be nice
4. I know it is hard and not accurate, but if the results are consistent enough (like getting the minimal FPS) in some maps, at least it can give players some idea about BF4 multiplayer performance
I also guess that if the difference between Mantle and non-Mantle gaming is big enough in case of multiplayer, we'll probably see it
Personally, I've tried to benchmark the multiplayer and though it was hard due to a lot of bugs, the FPSs were quite consistent for the same map Reply
junky77 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkalso, I didn't mean to offend if it sounded like that Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkRun a closed server.
Benchmark baseline control with 0 players.
Benchmark server populated with 10-20 editors or volunteers, just parked in vehicles and fixed locations. Even have them fire on fixed, non-destructible locations. If the results are different enough to show a solid CPU load and difference in performance from the control run, just go with that.
The server should still have to account for the players even thought they aren't really doing anything, but once you have them acting and destroying things that starts introducing variability.
The argument to validate these results is that even in real multiplayer games, your framerate should still remain relatively consistent when the round opens and you are just running to the first objective vs in the heat of combat, ie. you don't necessarily get more CPU load just by having more actions onscreen. Reply
yannigr - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThese results look interesting
Now cutting cores on a high end Intel processor is not the best way to come to conclusions. An Intel core is much different to an AMD core and maybe faster than a core in a Pentium processor (more cache available etc.). In the link above Mantle looks really really interesting, much more than what you found here with your preview. Reply
mmrezaie - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThat was a great article +yannigr Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI threw up after seeing the Multiplayer results. 90% performance gain in MP?? I seriously doubt that. Reply
junky77 - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkseems like others had good results too:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_pr... Reply
eanazag - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI think it is great that AMD is getting this out finally. I'm curious how much it helps in APU only scenarios like laptops. This looks like a good software workaround for pairing AMD cards with their performance disadvantaged CPUs.
I'm in agreement that just disabling cores on Intel's finest CPU is not exactly equivalent to simulating those power SKUs. Specifically cache is still there. Handicapping the 4C/4T to only 2 GHz is an outlier when the other two scenarios keeps things at 3GHz or higher. I completely understand the benefits of handicapping the CPU in speeding evaluation.
All in all, great preview. I'm looking forward to the rest. Reply
Manch - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkIm curious as well. I bought a MSI GX70 last year. The A10 5750M APU in it isnt all that great and bottlenecks the 8970m quite often. A little disappointed that the driver is limited to a select few GCN cores. Just got to wait a little while longer. Anandt ech did a review on the GX60 a while back and talked about how the APU bottlenecked the GPU. Im really curious to see what kind of performance improvement Ill get. Im happy with the laptop as is, but I wont turn down a free performance upgrade. Reply
Gnerma - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkI'd love to see some numbers on something stupid like a Core 2 Duo, Kabini or Bay Trail. So we can see the limits of this new toy. Reply
rarson - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkI'm still running a Core 2 Quad with a 7870, so something Core 2-based would most interest me. And actually, I've got an old 3.8 gHz Pentium 4 with HT. I may have to get a copy of BF4 and throw the 7870 into it just for fun. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - linkYes! I have a Core 2 Duo in one of my systems and game in Call of Duty Ghosts. It's still above the system requirements and has a new GPU, but obviously is CPU limited. If I could get 30% improvement with this CPU limited scenario, it would basically prevent me from having to buy new CPU, motherboard, memory, and reinstall OS and all software for at least another year. As it is, I am doing all of that now but this situation exists! My other system is a Phenom II X4 965, which is still playing games great, and something like this with a newer GCN video card would likely keep that one going a long time. Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkHonestly speaking. I am quite disappointed about improvements by Mantle in GPU limited scenarios. 7-10% better results could have been achieved with a well developed driver too. Why waste resources on building a new API? AMD has more important issues to focus upon like Frame Pacing and better 4K support.
OTOH I am extremely impressed with CPU bound results. It's a slap in the face for Intel since gamers won't need to upgrade CPUs if and only if Mantle takes off.
I strongly believe that Mantle's sole target should have been to alleviate API Overhead and reduce CPU bottleneck. GPU Performance should have been improved via drivers after properly implementing Frame Pacing. Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkEven though that would have meant that GPU Performance never improved. :P Reply
blanarahul - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCorrection: "to alleviate CPU Overhead" Reply
xdesire - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkGood job on quick preview. I'd also like to see some benchies with GCN 1.0 GPUs and various CPUs like an i3, FX 6300 and A10 if possible. As much as there is the fact that this is exaggerated by AMD, it's awesome that GCN users can get additional performance for free, be it 7% or 40%. I hope they improve mantle even further Reply
Dr_SnM - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkYou may have this planned already so I'm sorry if this is telling you something you already know.
I think it may be quite useful to report the standard deviation (or variance, take your pick) of the frame rates. Averages and minimums may hide an overall smoothing effect which could actually count as a performance increase. In other words, Mantle, by removing CPU bottlenecks, may reduce the frequency of frame rate dips. The best way to quantify this is with a measure of spread such as the standard deviation.
Thanks guys Reply
grndzro77 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkFrom what I'v seen the framerate dips are greatly improved. Reply
Dr_SnM - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkYeah, that would be my expectation. Everyone focuses on Average FPS but there is more to a game play experience than that number. Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkCan't see this being worthwhile for devs to implement for a 10% gain on a minority % of hardware (AMD only has 40% of hardware, and only GCN cards are supported). Anyone who has a Intel Quad core since 1st-gen i7 will likely see minimal gains from Mantle and that's before we see how Mantle fares against it's Nvidia counterparts.
I think the real advantage will be for those who use AMD CPUs, but the chances of someone using an AMD CPU and owning a high-end GCN graphics card are pretty slim based known data sets. Steam for example has Intel at a commanding 74% share with only 24% AMD. Reply
Manch - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkBut AMD has 100% of the consoles. I know Iknow, Mantle is not what they use on the consoles, but it is similar. Makes porting for the developers a lot easier. Also, relieving that CPU overhead allows developers to now use that freed resource for other things. This is just a quick preview. Wait for the full article. Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkMantle is as similar to consoles as they are to each other, and as we know, each platform still takes development time and resources. Can't see how it makes porting easier when they have to port 1 more build for the same platform as DirectX is still not going away.
Relieving CPU overhead is of questionable benefit given many of these games and hardware use cases are already GPU limited, meaning the CPU overhead was never really an issue to begin with. We see significant benefits (>10%) from Mantle only in fringe CPU limited scenarios that are relatively unlikely to begin with (multi-GPU at low resolutions, single GPU at low resolutions/settings). Reply
testbug00 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkConsidering Mantle closely resembles PS4 coding and also uses the same GPU as the Xbox One (the coding is probably a bit different due to esram and such) it will take off.
The big thing is that it costs a very small part of development, about 2-3% from what I have heard, and brings large performance benefits to a noticeable part of the market.
Also, what counterpart does Nvidia have again? Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkNvidia's counterpart would be their competing GPUs for each price/performance category, if Nvidia performs as well or better in BF4 and as well or better in other titles, again, is it really a worthwhile endeavor? Would anyone change their buying tendencies for a single game, or a few games per year if it meant crippling performance in the myriad titles that do not use Mantle?
Mantle resembles PS4 coding as much as PS4 coding resembles XB1 coding, they are all different and as such, take time and resources to produce and validate. The difference of course, is that the PC already has an API that supports 100% of IHVs (AMD, Nvidia, Intel) vs. Mantle which supports just a small fraction (GCN only for a minority AMD share of hardware).
As for 2-3% being a small part of development? I wouldn't consider that a small part, it just introduces more variables that can go wrong during the development process. We have already seen Mantle was delayed nearly 2 months in BF4 and took nearly 2 years to develop in the first place. For what? 10% gains in most use-case scenarios to a small fraction of the user-base?
I guess we will see how it goes, but I can't see widespread adoption for these types of gains. Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkThat would only apply if they were only programming for mantle. They still have to program for DX, giving them no incentive except for money to take advantage of it.
And it really isn't similar to console programming, no developer has confirmed that. That's just internet yap for people who think of themselves as programmers who know. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - link"giving them no incentive except for money"
Oh darn, who wants that anyway Reply
loguerto - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkThe real performance gains will be evident when game engines (like nitrous made by oxide) will have their roots deeply into mantle. They said that the amd api has up to 300% performance gain if compared to directx on their star swarm pre-alfa release (downloadable on steam). Reply
djentleman - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkThat's because of draw calls. Don't expect anything but amd benchmarks to have something like that. Reply
Dribble - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkThat's because they are implementing everything as a separate draw call instead of instancing it like everyone else does. If they do that then they don't have too many draw calls and it all works fine like every other game out there. They are doing it for publicity obviously, but in the end they'll have to program it properly and the benefits will be similar to BF4. Reply
chizow - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - link@ Ryan
I'm sure it's on your list of things to do for the full review, but just want to make sure there's a comprehensive image comparison done. Not saying there's any foul play in terms of IQ but it's been an issue in the past from both Nvidia and ATI/AMD under the guise of "optimizations". Reply
Ryan Smith - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkYes, we'll be doing some IQ comparisons. In fact we've already done some; so far we have not turned up any differences (nor do to we expect to find any). Reply
chizow - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkThanks Ryan, will be interested in seeing the results. There have already been numerous reports however of graphical artifacts, anomalies and bugs however while running Mantle codepath. Mainly a "fog" that DICE has already said is a bug, but looks an awful lot like the washed-out console "optimizations" that could be the result of reduced shader precision, fewer lighting passes, or lower detail settings. Will be interested to see what you find if/when these bugs are fixed. Reply
chizow - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkRyan you're probably pretty far along in testing already, but are you doing any regression testing with the 13.12 drivers? There have been a lot of reports of reduced performance in virtually every other game, might be worthwhile to check to make sure BF4 performance hasn't dropped from 13.12 to 14.1 Beta. Ideally I'd like to see at least these 4 tests per CPU and resolution:
i7 4960 + 290X-dx11 (13.12 driver)
i7 4960 + 290X-dx11 (14.1 driver)
i7 4960 + 290X-mantle (14.1 driver)
i7 4960 + GTX 780Ti (latest beta)
FX 8350 + 290X-dx11 (13.12 driver)
FX 8350 + 290X-dx11 (14.1 driver)
FX 8350 + 290X-mantle (14.1 driver)
FX 8350 + GTX 780Ti (latest beta)
FX 8350 + 280X-dx11 (13.12 driver)
FX 8350 + 280X-dx11 (14.1 driver)
FX 8350 + 280X-mantle (14.1 driver)
FX 8350 + GTX 770 (latest beta)
So on, so forth, mixing in different CPUs with competing GPUs in the same price:performance category. If not this review, maybe in a future one. Reply
capawesome9870 - Saturday, February 01, 2014 - linkwill you be doing Crossfire R9 290Xs or even Triple? Reply
Ryan Smith - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkYes on the CF 290X. Reply
abianand - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkRyan, would you be including the various processors like FX, latest A10s, i3 and i5? Reply
Mathos - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - link@ The Rabid Nvidia Fan boys. And even the AMD fan boys. Get your heads out of your butts. NVidia has already been doing this for years, which is why they didn't take up the offer for mantle. Mantle, and NVApi are effectively the exact same thing.
Nvidia controlled the Xbox, xbox 360, and PS3 on the GPU side. Therefore they had NVapi there to bring out extra performance on cross platform games, as it was set up to automatically bypass certain parts of direct3d and opengl for better performance. Battlefield 3 is a classic example of this, CryEngine games are another one. Nvapi was also part of making it easier to port console to pc on the graphics end.
AMD Now controls the console market. Therefor they're bringing out their own driver low level api to do the same thing Nvidia did with nvapi. This will continue for the next 7 or so years, average console refresh cycle. There will be plenty of games that support mantle, just like there have been plenty of nvidia the way it's meant to be played games over the lives of the previous gen consoles.
On a side note, this does mean AMD CPU's cores will be less of a bottleneck on their own GPU's when it comes to gaming with mantle enabled games. I'm not for example, going to be upset over a free 20ish % performance increase on my own HD7850 Phenom II 1090T setup. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkDude umm could you revisit the Xbox 360 comment pl0x Reply
funkforce - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkWe all love to see those benchmarks on high end systems, but how many gamers nowadays sits home with 8 core CPU:s and 1-3 High end GPU:s? Usually 1-5% play on those monster machines. Ofc. a lot of those are probably reading Anandtech. Anyway...
Lets say the average player has an i5/i7 2500 - 4770 at around 3.4-4.2Ghz and either an AMD Radeon 7870/270X or a Nvidia GTX 670/760 GPU.
Let's say they play BF4. How many play on Ultra Settings when they play Multiplayer? Only the people I would say that are oblivious to their sluggish performance at ~20-30 fps at a worst case scenario on a large Multiplayer map.
Any serious and knowledgeable gamer today tries to have minimum 60fps in a worst case scenario and more and more gamers have a 120hz/144hz monitor and aims for 100+fps.
So playing on low-high is the only viable option if you want to have good performance on all maps at all times.
And even if all readers here have better systems than that and see only 8% gains cause you all play on ultra... what will happen when you buy a 4k monitor this or next year with 4x the pixels for the GPU to push out? Will you still play on Ultra?
So it all adds up. I think 8-30% is huge, because this will help 90% of the gamers out there, the rest probably already have 100+ fps at ultra and don't need the boost.
Hard OCP did a test on BF4 with an Radeon R9 270X and got: Average 44.7 fps at 1920x1080 - 4XMSAA - Highest In-game settings.
But this is on a Intel 3770k Overclocked to a 4.6GHZ! And Min FPS is 26.
Just like a console that has average hardware compared to high end pc's, Mantle will benefit the largest portion of all gamers and in the future you can probably buy a cheaper CPU and perhaps put more money on the GPU and get even more bang for the buck. Reply
Roland00Address - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkDo you guys still have the MSI GX60 with the AMD A10-5750M and the AMD Radeon HD 7970M? (The 7970M is a pitcarn part similar to a downclocked desktop 7870) If so this would be a very good choice to see if mantle actually improved the performance of that mix matched laptop and if it allowed it to compete more similarly to the intel chips with the 7970M. Reply
LeftSide - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkIs there any way we could get the lowest frame rate numbers, or a graph. Average frame rate is such a mixed bag for performance reviews. Reply
tuklap - Sunday, February 02, 2014 - linkStill... Good job AMD... Reply
wizyy - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkAccording to this article:
in conjunction with Kaveri systems, Mantle boost is larger, more than 20%. Reply
lilmoe - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkMeh. Reply
dwade123 - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkYeah... A minor gain at the cost of developers working twice as hard just to bring in their console ports to the PC. Not gonna happen. Dead before arrival. Reply
formulav8 - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkWhy use a high end cpu? Mantle is to help increase performance for the lower end cpu's iirc. If you already have a cpu that's that fast mantle wouldn't do much for you. Put in some quad kaveri type cpu or Intel i3 or something and test it and see. Mantle was to benfefit lower-mid end systems iirc and not top end systems which will already have high-end fps performance and eye candy and bottlenecks the gpu.
My understanding of mantle may not be correct since I have an NVidia video card (and thus I would get no benefit), so I didn't do a lot of research personally on mantle. But would still like to see it reviewed with a lower/mid-end cpu that is actually in more persons computers than an i7 like that. Reply
Iceburg Lettuce - Monday, February 03, 2014 - linkSerious benefits for a big CPU bottleneck.
Just got over 100% increase in framerate in starswarm.
AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 B45 Processor (Althon II x3 445 with core unlocked)
with 2Gb XFX 7870LE (Tahiti)
Based on scenario "follow" and "extreme" settings:
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 5693
Average FPS: 15.81
Average Unit Count: 3780
Maximum Unit Count: 5472
Average Batches/MS: 317.16
Maximum Batches/MS: 661.27
Average Batch Count: 22797
Maximum Batch Count: 85189
== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 12121
Average FPS: 33.67
Average Unit Count: 4213
Maximum Unit Count: 5409
Average Batches/MS: 562.09
Maximum Batches/MS: 1319.19
Average Batch Count: 19947
Maximum Batch Count: 93633
only did a single run, so take this with a pinch of salt for now, I'll try again tomorrow. Reply
Miroslav - Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - linkExcuse me Ryan, but is it not a mistake to think that the Core i7 in 2C/4T configuration is equival to Core i3 processor, because Core i7 in 2C/4T configuration still have 15MB of L3 cache, and Core i3 only 3MB of L3 cache?
(Sorry for my bad English, it is not my native language) Reply
Vayra - Thursday, February 06, 2014 - linkFor consoles this is nothing new as there is little to no abstraction layer needed. A console API can be custom built from the onset because it only supports a single hardware config. Reply
Wolfpup - Thursday, February 06, 2014 - linkWhat's causing the DirectX bottlenecks? Shouldn't this effort be put into getting rid of THOSE? Or are they inevitable because Mantle is a lower level API than Direct 3D?
I'm very uncomfortable with Mantle, particularly since AMD STILL needs to get their drivers in order. They're still years (decades?) beyond Nvidia, and...? And instead of doing that, we're doing this presumably marketing driven mantle stuff?
Even if some real games support it for a while, what happens when AMD releases a new architecture that doesn't fit with Mantle? Do they continue supporting it and at that point it's just a high level API? Do they continue supporting it but alter it, so games have to effectively support another version of it?
I'm feeling like this is a bad idea all around. If AMD had 5 years of rock solid driver releases under their belt that would be one thing, but micro-stuttering, Enduro doesn't work, notebook support generally is terrible, they don't support hardware very long, etc. while Nvidia's managing to actually do Optimus well, SLI well, etc., let alone the basics... Get the basics right before you do this... Reply
piiman - Saturday, February 08, 2014 - link"I'm very uncomfortable with Mantle, particularly since AMD STILL needs to get their drivers in order. They're still years (decades?) beyond Nvidia"
Really? decades? Just how do you figure that? Reply


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How to Use False Eyelashes
Tip of the day: 5 fool proof ways of achieving full, fluttering lashes!
-Sara Strand – Creative Director, POP Beauty
Nothing shouts glamour as loudly as a pair of perfectly applied false lashes! This trend that has been an everyday beauty must (like a concealer would be to us) in Asia and it's finally picking up in the states as well. This is a secret celebs have used for years. Look at Angelina Jolie's profile, hmm; do you think those luscious lashes are real? Now it's our turn. Read on to learn how to apply them and have fun with them too!
Read Gotta Have It & Win It! Bethenny Frankel's
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text:
It's not even like I have that much left — just a boxful that survived room changes through college and beyond. But as I scanned the song lists from Bon Jovi's Cross Road, The Notorious BIG's Ready to Die, and Paula Abdul's Spellbound, I started to feel overwhelmed. What was I going to do with all this music that I don't really listen to anymore but I still hold dear somewhere in my heart? I don't even have a CD player anymore, except for the one in my car.
Here's what I ended up doing: I sat down on my floor and dedicated a good hour to looking through the entire collection and mentally bookmarking the songs that I would maybe listen to again. (Queen Latifah before she went CoverGirl? Maybe just a song or two... or not. The Cranberries? No thanks. Arrested Development? Definitely.) Turns out there weren't that many. Then, I inserted each CD into my MacBook and ripped those songs on iTunes.
I could not, in good conscience, throw away the original self-titled Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey or Janet (I must have had those from way before high school), or chuck the cover art for Bad even though there was no CD in its case, so I kept those. I also kept a few cassette tapes to play on the vintage tape player-radio thingy I picked up in my friend's garage. Everything else went in the trash.
I'd love to hear what everyone else is doing. If you've faced a similar dilemma as me and found a good way to solve it, please leave a comment!
Image via Corazon Girl's Flickr
Advisor is a column about how to juggle technology, relationships, and common sense. Got a story to tell? Email me at lisa [at] boingboing [dot] net.
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I love my mid champions <3
Mordekaiser steals a carry:
Cassiopeia loves to poke:
Katarina relaunch is fun:
Leave Anivia alone! Chasing gets you killed:
I made a varus video explaining how to use his blight mechanic with a few jokes in the video
just finshed this ranked game as kog i have never ever ever been this fed in ranked before
I'm a streamer on TwitchTV, and i just started playing League of Legends, so I'm pretty new to the game. I could use some help.
TwitchTV: www.twitch.tv/Emrendil
Youtube: www.youtube.com/user/Emrendil
Twitter: twitter.com/Emrendil
Hey, I'm considering putting together a weekly top 10 video playlist. Would anyone be interested in helping contribute to it if I got it started?
I've just started my YouTube channel. Consisting of Comedy Sketches, Game Highlights, Guides, Commentary's, Short amusing clips and all things League of Legends.
If you like short, snappy and to the point regular content with a weird sense of humor, then be sure to check me out!
I put time and effort into my video's and know that interacting with your viewer base is a good thing so expect Vlogs as well! Lots of variety is to be expected on my channel and I'd really appreciate any feedback, bad or good =).
But make sure to check out my others too =). My YouTube page can be found by just clicking on my Signature or the text below it.
Cheers guys!
Last edited by Davekthxbai; 2012-10-25 at 04:46 PM.
Short, snappy and to the point regular content with a weird sense of humor.
I'm a youtube partner and a LoL player (currently banned for racism, don't worry, I'll be back)
Here's a vid I made including some ranked play ( watch before judging ):
I'd like to have this thread to combine all your league bloopers, whether it be a story or a video!
I'll start:
I don't play Olaf much but this is kind of my story when I play against him.
Hey everyone
Just released my newest video featuring Shen and Teemo in a Metal Gear Solid style Parody. Hope you enjoy =)
Short, snappy and to the point regular content with a weird sense of humor.
Short, snappy and to the point regular content with a weird sense of humor.
So I decided after much thought that I would expand the games i play and I was starting to enjoy LoL for the first time in a long time so Here is part one of game I played as Kayle was going for support but well the plan didn't really work out. Thanks all have a wonderful day.
The Youtubes
FS7 Gaming
Minecraft, World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars 2 all great games played by a not so great gamer..
We'd never played LoL before, despite hearing it mentioned a lot. So tonight, we decided to skip the tutorial and jump in at the deep end with some friends of ours who know the game a bit.
Originally Posted by Tigole
Just getting started with this, and there's more to come. Feedback and critique is greatly appreciated.
Video contains instructions on how to play Support role in League Of legends ranked 5vs5 brackets.
*******Summoner spells and starting items;
*******Laning phase;
*******Middle phase;
*******Late game;
Feel free to share the video.
Watch in HD!


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Do I need to revise for whom I am buying or what I am buying for them?
Possibly. Americans are famous for making the holidays into a gift-giving extravaganza instead of placing the main focus on giving of ourselves and our time. A small, truly thoughtful gift can make a better impression than a lavish, generic present. A hand-packed gift basket of practical items is always welcome, and can be assembled economically.
"Every year I revise the gift list of who I purchase for. The biggest change is usually to move someone off the list for gifts and onto the Christmas card list. Other changes include the nature of the gifts given and we tend to go a little smaller each year to try and reel back from the gift-giving focus to the real purpose of the season." – Lauren B. Foster, CPA.CITP


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Automotive Research and Test
In the Automotive Research & Test division, our specialists are working on vehicle dynamics & fatigue strength, marine and stationary engines, as well as engine research & development.
We are a strong partner that our customers can count on. Kistler products feature top-of-the-line technology and ensure that measuring results are highly precise from as early as the first trial. As a result, our customers are not only able to improve the vehicles of tomorrow in terms of vehicle dynamics and vehicle safety, but also make them more energy-efficient too.
The Automotive Research and Test division focuses on technological excellence and ensuring products are able to keep up with the requirements of the future, as well as process and operational reliability, process efficiency, and resource optimization. This allows us to create specialized solutions for the world of tomorrow.
Industrial Process Control
The Industrial Process Control division specializes in industrial test systems, plastics processing, NC joining systems, as well as process monitoring in joining and re-forming. In addition to standardized solutions, the IPC experts also develop customized applications.
System and application competence, service expertise, process reliability, resource optimization, and boosting productivity are the focus of this division, which is driven by the principles of constant improvement and making progress possible as a result.
Sensor Technology
The Sensor Technology division encompasses a wide variety of applications. Road & traffic, biomechanics, cutting force, short-term dynamics, as well as test & measurement.
Transport monitoring using accurate traffic data is being improved thanks to innovative Kistler products. In sports diagnostics, Kistler force plates are being used to support the performance and rehabilitation of athletes. During cutting processes, sensors are delivering highly precise force measurements. High-pressure measurements can be taken reliably and dynamically. Our experts are paving the way with high-quality products so that our customers can set something big in motion.


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Capt. Frank P Stryker, KIA 1945
14 April, 1945 — Germany
Captain FRank P Stryker
Frank P. StrykerID: O-417386
Entered the Service From: Pennsylvania
Rank: Captain
Service: U.S. Army, 41st Infantry Battalion, 2nd Armored Division
Died: Saturday, April 14, 1945
Buried at: Netherlands American Cemetery
Location: Margraten, Netherlands
Plot: D Row: 5 Grave: 23
Awards: Silver Star, Bronze Star with Oak Leaf Cluster
From the Doylestown Daily Intelligencer, Week of Aug. 12-18, 1945
Doylestown celebrates end of war -
[Editor's note - In a national radio broadcast at 7 p.m. Tuesday, Aug. 14, 1945, President Harry Truman announced that Japan had accepted the Allied terms of unconditional surrender, ending the fighting in World War II. The news set off spontaneous public celebrations that continued into Wednesday, known as V-J Day.]
Doylestown, like other communities throughout the world, exploded with emotions at 7 o'clock last night when President Truman's announcement of the Japanese surrender was flashed to the world by radio.
Almost simultaneously, the victory roar spread over town. Restraint was thrown to the winds.
Nearly all of Doylestown tried to get inside the Court House to take part in a brief service of thanksgiving in which local clergymen participated.
Big crowds in Monument Square tossed hats, boxes and flags in the air. Firecrackers that had been hidden in local cellars and attics for years were pressed into service. The streets were soon well filled with confetti and bits of torn newspapers.
There were no strangers in Doylestown last night--men and women embraced. Some were hilarious, others cried softly.
The fire siren on the roof of the Doylestown Fire House was worked overtime last night. For hours it sounded the official signal that the war was over. At least a hundred youngsters rode on the fire trucks, and the impromptu street parade started. Hundreds of automobiles were in line.
Through the courtesy of the Rohde Radio Service, a complete radio broadcasting set was set up on the second floor of the Daily Intelligencer office. Music and I.N.S. [International News Service] and radio flashes were furnished to the celebrants in Monument Square.
"Peace" posters were plastered on the windows in the central business section of town. Local inns and tap rooms closed immediately upon receipt of the "War's Over" signal and will remain closed until further notice from the State Liquor Control Board.
Doylestown police made one arrest during the evening, when William Kling of Doylestown, an ex-soldier, was arrested for driving while drunk on Main street. He was committed to the Bucks County Prison for a hearing. Aside from that, local police had very little to do except direct traffic.
Twenty-one Doylestown residents killed in war -
Doylestown's price for World War II included twenty men and one woman who made the supreme sacrifice, and another 700 who served their country, many of whom are still in the service, and a number of whom are wearing the Purple Heart.
Doylestown's few industrial plants produced millions of dollars' worth of material used in the war, principally gun barrels, uniforms, cloth and stockings. This [Wednesday] morning, for the first time since the war started, the plants are closed as employees are enjoying two well-earned holidays.
The end of the war will not mean that Doylestown's war plants will be closed. They will, instead, return to the production of civilian goods in quantities larger than ever before.
Doylestown's war dead are listed in the order in which they were killed:
No. 1--Lieut. Charles F. Meyers, 23; killed Dec. 5, 1942, in test flight in California.
No. 2--Carpenter's Mate Harrison Y. Stover, 24; killed Feb. 7, 1943, dying of exposure near Iceland.
No. 3--Seaman 2/c Kenneth R. Bellerby, 19; killed Nov. 14, 1943, in an accident aboard the Cruiser Boston.
No. 4--Staff Sergeant Harry Leon Gerhart, 26; killed Dec. 19, 1943, in Algeria, with the Air Corps.
No. 5--Pfc. Frank W. Walton, Jr., 20; killed Feb. 24, 1944, in Central Pacific.
No. 6--Staff Sergeant George B. McLaughlin, 26; killed April 28, 1944, in raid over France.
No. 7--Lieut. Donald V. Chubb, 22; killed May 8, 1944, when he crashed into the English Channel.
No. 8--Lieut. Mary Chubb, 31; killed June 14, 1944, in plane crash over England.
No. 9--Technical Corporal Harvey W. Price, 35; killed Aug. 3, 1944, in a truck accident in England.
No. 10--Lieut. Donald M. Myers, 23; killed Dec. 2, 1944, in France.
No. 11--Technical Sergeant John E. Miller, 29; killed Jan. 2, 1945, in mission over Philippine Islands.
No. 12--Pvt. George DeHaven, 24; killed Jan. 9, 1945, in France.
No. 13--Corporal C. Raymond Axenroth, Jr., 26; killed Feb. 21, 1945, on Iwo Jima, with the Marines.
No. 14--Lieut. Samuel E. Kershaw, 23; killed Feb. 21, 1945, in raid over European area.
No. 15--Pvt. Gordon B. Kreutz, 18; killed Feb. 23, 1945, in Germany.
No. 16--Pfc. William Darrah, 22; killed Feb. 27, 1945, on Iwo Jima, with the Marines.
No. 17--Lieut. Jack E. Taifer, 22; killed April 5, 1945, in England.
No. 18--Captain Frank P. Stryker, 29; killed April 14, 1945, somewhere in Germany.
No. 19--Pfc. Eugene C. Carter, 31; killed April 18, 1945, in action in Germany.
No. 20--Pvt. William J. McConnell, 19; killed May 9, 1945, on Okinawa.
No. 21--Lieut. William Satterthwaite [no age given]; killed May 15, 1945, on Okinawa, with the Marines.
[Editor's note - In 1946, the Veterans Land Improvement Company began development of the Maplewood neighborhood on a former farm along Route 313. The streets were named after 11 of Doylestown's service members killed in the war, including siblings Donald and Mary Chubb.]
Barbi Ennis Connolly firstname.lastname@example.com


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quote:Originally posted by CQD:
Good advice, thank you for the quick response. we are weighing the cost between a window cabin or a balcony cabin. We weren't sure how much time we would spend on the cabin and should we use the difference in cost to extend our vacation, etc.


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Here is the link to thier website.
Here is the link to thier website.
The losing stops later.
Don't forget Hooter's down the road! No, actually DO forget Hooter's Newport. I will never forget my VERY pregnant waitress there one time, what a disaster. Worst looking girls at any Hooters I have ever been to.
"Trying is the first step towards failure." Homer Simpson
"I wasn't looking too good but I was feeling real well." Keith Richards
Take her to Biaggio's Bistro on Ludlow. Knockout authentic Italian/Tuscan food, great hole-in-the-wall atmosphere that's appropriate for a date (dinner runs $10-18). If both of you are of age, the fine wine and beer shop across the street has a great atmosphere for wine and beer tasting for $5 on Fridays and Saturdays starting at 5:00. If you aren't of age, the Esquire shows first run movies now.
I've taken dates to Newport on the Levee before and rarely to good results. I don't know if it's the overly contrived nature of that place (or maybe it's all the high school kids), but it doesn't lend itself to a date very well. Instead, take her to a place that she probably hasn't been to dozens of times. I've always had luck when I can give a date a new experience. It takes some knowledge of the city, but there are countless opportunities out there. You just have to look and be willing to try unfamiliar places.
Last edited by paintmered; 10-24-2008 at 09:33 PM.
What if this wasn't a rhetorical question?
All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.
There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.
I like GameWorks myself
Skip all the fancy stuff.
Go to McDonalds drive thru and tell her she can only order off the $1 menu. Make sure she knows that you are not going to waste money on her if she isn't going to let you spend the night. If she obliges, go straight to her bedroom. Leave immediately after. Only call her again when you are sloppy drunk.
A couple more suggestions about places in Newport: The Reserve is a cool piano bar/ restaurant that used to be the Federal Reserve in Cincinnati, and I have heard amazing things about Nuvo, a contemporary dining place for more refined palettes.
"I'm a Cucumber, I'm a cucumber. I'm a cucumber, I'm a cucumber. I'm a cucumber, I'm a cucumber. Please don't send me to the pickle farm, bum." - Brak
Record In Games Attended, 2007: 2-1 (1-0 GAB, 1-1 Jake)
In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either. - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"
The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things, that's Rallyonion.com
The Baseball Bookstore
Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.


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We stand out from the crowd. We've listened to what our clients want from a legal business and that means a groundbreaking combination of legal knowledge, sector specialism and commercial understanding.


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HOUSTON - It's the first day of summer school for students in the North Forest community. Last week, North Forest ISD closed and officially merged with Houston ISD.
Shadydale Elementary is one of the former North Forest ISD schools to survive and stay open. It is now under the direction of HISD. Parents say they are looking forward to this new beginning.
"Good discipline. Good education putting a good foot forward so the kids can be successful in life," said parent Kimberly Washington.
First thing Monday morning some students made their way to school. At Shadydale, this was a day to register for a new beginning.
"I'm hoping the teachers teach them better than North Forest did," said parent Monique Ellis.
The kids attending summer school need to retake tests in order to move on. Low test scores and financial troubles over the years forced to Texas Education Agency to take action against North Forest ISD.
"North Forest has been in debt for a long time so its time," said parent Jackie Coleman.
Parents who have no other options are happy to see HISD take over.
"I feel like my child's keys are in their hands when I'm at work. I want them to feel safe and in a safe environment and a safe school district for the year and years to come," said parent Lakeisha Thomas.
Because of the annexation, the principle of Shadydale Elementary is expecting anywhere from 200-400 new students.
Copyright 2013 by Click2Houston.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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The absence of transitional fossils did not look like an insuperable one in Darwin's time. Darwin was amazed that not a single intermediate fossil to confirm his theory had been discovered in any of the Earth's strata, but he still believed they would be "found in the future." In the chapter titled "Difficulties on Theory" of his the Origin of Species he wrote:
... Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.1
Transitional fossils, which have refuted Darwin's expectations and not a single one of which has been discovered over the last 150 years, have emerged as one of the greatest objections to his theory. Because excavations are being carried out all the time and not a single one of the millions of even billions of transitional fossils that should have been found ever has been. The lack of transitional fossils means the death of Darwinism, and is something that the adherents of the superstitious faith that is Darwinism cannot accept. For that reason, Darwinists resorted to traditional methods and began manufacturing fictitious transitional fossils. Today, when we look at publications that are Darwinist in origin we see that all the living fossils depicted as transitional forms are in fact the product of fraud. This false evidence, which may sometimes be based on extinct life forms, sometimes on fictitious illustrations, sometimes on just one single fossil tooth and sometimes on skulls fraudulently manufactured in a laboratory environment, are all important proofs that transitional fossils do not exist and that Darwinism is a deception.
Professor of Mathematics Wolfgang Smith is one of those scientists who openly admits that transitional fossils do not exist:
On the fundamental level, it becomes a rigorously demonstrable fact that there are no transitional types, and the so-called missing links are indeed non-existent. 2
The evolutionist paleontologist Stephen Stanley makes this comment on the absence of transitional fossils:
The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphology transition, and hence offers no evidence that gradualistic model can be valid. 3
The University of Kansas geologist Ronald R. West comments:
If evolution is true, the fossil record should demonstrate:
1. The oldest rocks that bear evidence of life would contain the most primitive forms of life capable of fossilization.
2. Younger rocks would contain evidence of more complex forms of life.
3. There would be a gradual change in life forms from simple to complex.
4. There would be huge numbers of transitional forms. 4
Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution. 5
Darwinists have been unable to put forth a single genuine intermediate form. Not a single transitional fossil has ever been unearthed. There is not a single example of a genuine transitional form on display in museums of evolution. More than 250 million fossils have been discovered to date, but not one is a transitional fossil. They are all, whether still living or extinct, fully formed and perfect forms.
The lack of transitional forms is not such that even Darwinists can deny. Faced by various difficulties, they sometimes are forced to admit it. One such statement comes from the evolutionist paleontologist Colin Patterson:
I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book [Evolution], If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly have included them. . . . I will lay it on the line – there is not one single transitional form in the fossil record for which one could make a watertight argument. 6
The absence of intermediate forms is not something that should be glossed over with sophistry as by the majority of Darwinists or else regarded as unimportant. No transitional forms means no evolution. One or a few fossils are not enough to validate the theory of evolution. There would have to be millions of them. But there exists not one single transitional fossil. This reality – that just about 100% of the fossil record has been unearthed in the 2000s and that not one of the millions of transitional fossils that there should theoretically have been has been found – is by itself great and very powerful evidence that evolution is a lie.
Mark Ridley of the Oxford University Department of Zoology describes how all the fossil record does is show that Darwinism is a lie:
In any case, no real evolutionist, whether a gradualist or a punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation...7
The interesting thing is the way that, as we shall be seeing in due course – and in the face of this reality – Darwinists still try to depict fully formed, complete and perfect fossils as transitional forms, or else manufacture their own. The principal reason for their resorting to fraud is without doubt their inability to produce any scientific evidence. The main element that makes Darwinism a fraud is that the followers of this superstitious religion have to engage in hoaxes, lies and deception. The adherents of this superstitious faith claim to be acting in the name of science, but the findings of science openly refute the theory of evolution. In Darwinists' eyes, Darwinism can only be propped up by means of countless lies. Their "transitional form found" propaganda that constitutes part of this is also a huge fraud.
1 Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, pp. 172, 280
2 Wolfgang Smith, Teilhardism and the New Religion, A Thorough Analysis of the Teachings of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Rockford IL, Tan Books and Publishers, Inc. 1988, p. 8.
3 Stephen Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, San Francisco CA, W. H. Freeman, 1979, p. 39.
4 Bert Thompson, Biological Evolution (Montgomery, AL:Apologetics Press, Inc., 1989), pp. 16-17
5 Ronald R. West, "Paleoecology and Uniformitarianism," Compass, vol. 45 (May 1968): p. 216. Ronald R. West is an assistant professor of paleobiology at Kansas State University.
6 Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 1984), p. 89, quoting Colin Patterson. Dr. Patterson is a senior paleontologist at the British Museum of National History, London; owner and proprietor of the most complete fossil collection in the world.
7 Mark Ridley, "Who Doubts Evolution?" New Scientist, vol. 90 (June 25, 1981): p. 831. Ridley was in the department of zoology at Oxford University.