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Right, this is something I've been having a problem with here for quite some time.
I understand that as a Wiki our job is to give accurate information about the series to the best of our ability. But I think that part of this should include presenting the logical conclusion to presented information.
For example, We've credited Orochimaru with the creation of the Curse Mark, but when it came to who made the Four Black Fog Battle formation, we didn't list him as the creator despite it likely being the case because there's the smallest chance Kabuto played a part in its creation.
Now I'm not suggesting we present theories in the articles or anything and I don't believe we should let things presented in unconnected media effect one another, so nothing from anime effecting manga data etc. So no change there.
But I find we're overly willing to avoid presenting the obvious with nothing to the contrary simply because it hasn't be explicitly confirmed.
Now I understand that what might be the obvious conclusion might not be the right one, but by the very nature of the manga and the ability to edit our information, we can always fix this later as we have done until now. I don't need to bring up Itachi's Villain status, Tobi's true identity or the other revelations that have changed what we thought to be true, even more minor things, like until recently I believe it was commonly accepted that Hashirama died before Tsunade was born.
I know I might not have presented this in the most comprehensive manner ever, but basically, I would like to open it up to discuss a change in policy to include a certain greater degree of Ockham's Razor here, especially in cases where we're unlikely to receive more information. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 02:21, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I have no idea the issue wit the Four Black Fog Battle Formation, but I myself have been having some serious issues with the lack of logical conclusions. Using a history lesson, before we knew the Fourth was Naruto's father, everyone speculated that yeah he was. We had absolutely no evidence to prove this, just that the two happened to look alike and acted alike. But we had to battle tooth and nail to keep people from adding to articles "He is most likely Naruto's father".
- What came from this was the absolute refusal do anything unless it was spelled out in black and white. This kept everything we would have in articles as what we knew for sure. Ok that was fine, until I started to notice things that just didn't make sense. For example, we would sit and argue back and forth that Ink Creation wasn't a tailed beast skill. Why? Because it was never said it was a Tailed Beast Skill, but that would require us to ignore that the Eight-Tails is an octopus, octopuses create ink, safe from wrestling moves/lightning techniques all of B's abilities have been tailed beast related.
- This became a wall of me ranting, but basically we've reached the apex of an issue that has begun years ago, we are literally trying very hard to not think and come up with logical conclusions about things and instead want Kishimoto to spoon feed us things that we don't really need him to.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:35, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Thank god it's not just me. Now let's just hope some more of the big names around here weigh in in our favour. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 02:57, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. The recent Scorch Release argument is one of those, in that it was blatantly obvious that Kishi was giving us a bone with the whole fire and wind thing, and there are walls of arguments because it wasn't specifically stated. Obito's reveal also stands out in my mind. I think, personally, that the rules should be tweaked; if there is a general consensus, more than X-number of people, who generally agree that a conclusion is common sense (logical conclusion), then it should be added at least as a trivia note, but depending on the situation, even to the article itself. There is nothing wrong with using your brain. That's half the fun of reading a story — putting things together logically. It should also be noted to the more hesitant users of the wiki (because I have a feeling I know who they will be), that Kishi (as was prior pointed out) will not "spoon feed" us everything. Somethings he's going to leave us to figure out on our own. We might as well do so, within reason. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:01, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I have to disagree with this somewhat. Not because I disagree with the use of logical conclusions which we use plenty of here but our main focus as a wikia is to document the information presented to us by Kishimoto. I'm not saying we're to be spoon fed but that's like someone taking the sacred teachings of a religion for example and ad libbing what they feel a mind to then dispensing it to the masses as the logical conclusions of said deity. My major problem with what this is proposing is the fall out from it. Everyone and their mothers will believe their logical conclusions to be true because let's face it: that's just how people are. That only opens our articles up for people to add speculation and claim that "logic dictates that this is what would happen". With regards to what Hawkeye said, your examples do not make for the best ones simply because of one story making device called: plot development. What were we to do in those instances?
- The guy saying he's Madara may be Obito Uchiha because of his hairstyle and the height and weight match and because other learned scholars in forums say so? Despite the fact that he was crushed under a rock?
- Itachi killed his entire clan and from all intents looks like he's rearing Sasuke like a guinea pig to take his eyes but hey, logic dictates that he may not be so bad possibly?
Info was literally created to misdirect readers to create a story.
- Now Naruto is a good example; I would never at any point before its revelation agree to add a note saying "oh he might be Minato's son because they look alike and Naruto likes to stare at his face on the monument". Things like that are unnecessary and don't hinder the addition of info to the wikia in any way.
- That B thing is dumb since persons should've had enough sense to know that was a tailed beady skill right off the bat especially since Kisame said do.
- Scorch Release is another thing altogether, if that article had remained the way some people thought was a logical conclusion then any two persons or single person could use a kekkei genkai "without the kekkei genkai". The information was added to Scorch Release article and the doubt was also mentioned/referenced and so forth which I think it the best way to handle things like that.
Take a more recent example:
- in Sasori's article it was mentioned that although he saw the attack he chose to die rather than kill Chiyo. What? Now that, is utterly unnecessary speculation on our part born out of the fact that someone believed it to be a logical conclusion when I could argue that Sasori held little to no regard for his grandmother even when he was about to die. I understand that hey we're also fans of Naruto and we might have theories in our head that are all too clearly obvious but we didn't become an excellent wikia by interjecting logical conclusions everywhere. Things like mentioning that Katsuyu for example is possibly the only slug summon is the kind of conclusions I don't mind but otherwise, we stick to facts for one simple reason: there's no way to argue against them.--Cerez365™(talk) 03:28, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Cerez, I get where you're coming from, and honestly, I'm not looking for any extreme here,but my point is, primarily I think, that this is about evolution of information. Until a certain point, all we could say was that Tobi is Tobi and Obito was dead, despite loads of people having theories. Now, now we know for sure and have added it. What I'm looking at is just more an application of this logical thinking to handle information that is likely to be true through provided evidence as opposed to what is a possible but contradictory theory.
For example
Tobi is Obito
Before Confirmation - Obito is dead, his body was crushed, Kakashi and Rin saw it happen, he's listed as dead, for all intents and purposes the man is dead go away.
After Confirmation - Okay, Obito is Tobi because Madara saved his life. Carry on.
What I would be looking for would be something like Scorch Release.
Scorch Release is made of Fire and Wind natures
Before Confirmation - Enton and Futon combined to create a technique described as Shakuton, so until further notice, this is what we're going with.
Confirmed not to be the case - Sakuton is made of X + Y, but a technique described as Shakuton was created using Enton and Futon.
And in cases where we don't have enough evidence, we'd have something like this
4th Hokage is Naruto's father
Before Confirmation - You cannot say that they are related based solely on physical similarity, every blonde spiky haired person is not related.
After Confirmation - Turns out these two are, also Naruto and certain freakish redheads, but again, not all of them.
I would be looking at things more of this nature as opposed to our current format which seems to avoid like the plague everything that isn't explicitly stated.
But like I said, I'm not saying let people loose with the wild theories, especially when evidence is scarce, but as it stands, with the scorch release example above, there's nothing to the contrary, it's literally the best shot we have and with implementing some new form of policy we could control this change to allow for more comprehensive, and helpful wiki. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:54, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
But i cant see how what you're proposing helpful to the wikia though? We're supposed to present information as logical conclusions like Scorch Release to readers who will go off not thinking that its an assumption but that it is fact? Then when that changes and turns out not to be true we recant it and say whoops? And if its correct we get to tell people in their faces o.O? Things like that would threaten the entire credibility of the information of the wikia and if people can't trust the info they're reading here, then I don't know what we're all doing because this certainly isn't one of those sociable wikia. Using Scorch Release an example, the technique is identified as such in name but not as a nature transformation. The speculated component elements are mentioned along with a note that Minato called the technique Scorch Release based off the use of fire and wind. Those in my head are logical assumptions although it was never said in the manga. What more could you want from that situation?--Cerez365™(talk) 04:14, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
But by that same logic, if someone read this wiki a year ago they'd think Tobi was Madara and Obito was still dead. This is what I mean by the evolution of information, we can only give what we know to a given point in time. If someone comes here once, reads something that becomes out of date or obsolete and then leaves, that should not be counted as a failure on our part. But if Scorch Release is in fact intended to be Fire and Wind natures, implied when Sasuke and Naruto created one by combining their own techniques perfectly, but we don't list that, then that is our failure. If it later turns out to be incorrect, it can be corrected as we have done a million times over, but it's these basic, reduced to their simplest idea points of logic that we're missing because no one has said it explicitly. I mean let's look at that barrier the hokage erected, does anyone have any doubts that that the Sound Four's technique is derived from this? It's mentioned to be stronger, but it's exact relation is never stated and yet I can't think of a single person who would doubt that like the Triple Rashomon it's an ability Orochimaru copied in a diluted form. It's these simple things that can be inferred and by all rights are likely correct given what evidence we have. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 05:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- @Cerez: No, what he is suggesting is that it is both reprehensible and increasingly dumb that when we can make a logical conclusion regarding information that is provided to us within the series, then we should go ahead and make a call on it, even if its a Trivia point only.
- Example:
- Back during the Obito—Tobi debacle, when Obito was first revealed to be the Masked Man, there were those on this wiki who wanted to wait for even more confirmation. More confirmation than the chapter being called "Obito Uchiha". More confirmation, despite the fact that all but two pages were flashbacks of Obito Uchiha. More confirmation, despite the fact that the face at the end of the chapter was Obito Uchiha. Granted, much of this was due to outrage by some members that it was Obito, instead of "their guy". Regardless, it took, according to my memory of the incident, several days to convince our own members what had already been confirmed by Kishimoto himself, when the logical conclusion, based on the manga itself, was that he was Obito Uchiha.
- That should not happen. Ever. You see, Cerez, there very well may be information on this site that we present as fact, based on our knowledge of what is presented in the series, that later comes up false. That's not our fault. That is just the drawback to running this site while the series is ongoing. Facts get retconned, better explained, or flat out forgotten by the author, and things changed. Regardless, it is our job to not only report what is explicitly stated in the series, but to also draw logical conclusions, within reason, based on common sense (such as the Scorch Release incident). For example, the databooks may very well reveal that Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero is an actual Scorch Release technique, and no logic you use based on what you know would change Kishimoto's decision. That's just a fact.
- It really does get tiresome arguing with people who are afraid to just use their head and draw a reasonable conclusion based on the facts. If, at a later date, those facts change, we can change it then and there to reflect the facts. The Obito situation I mentioned, being prime suspect. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:15, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Logical conclusions are needed, otherwise lots of information would get lost/unlisted. As long as a blatantly non-stated information in articles is still based on manga/databook hints etc. it's safe. The Minato one isn't a good example, if we went with that then we would have to list Gaara as an Uzumaki by now. But even the canon "facts" themselves aren't very reliable as you might have noticed. For example the whole Hashirama's death/history stuff seemingly got changed. Also the reason for why I believed Tobi to be Izuna is because their: weight, height, blood type, birthday, hair color match... on top of that, a person more related to Madara would be his brother and Obito got crushed by boulders and we saw that. Everyone with half a brain must have come to the conclusion that Tobi is Izuna, right? ;D Oh, wait... sometimes even "obvious" and "logical" things aren't true T_T so we should find a middle-way. --Elveonora (talk) 11:22, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Elve, once again I can't tell if you're with or against us. :D Still, right now I'm talking about a change in policy to reflect something a bit friendlier to logical conclusions. Of course this needs to put in some guidelines like we did with the creation of relevant articles guidelines. In this case, things that are intentionally ambiguous, like Tobi's identity, Naruto's heritage etc. would be left alone without a clear answer because there were several popular theories, but more importantly there were contradicting theories and evidence. to make some more examples
Obito is Tobi
Evidence for - He's a seemingly one eyed psycho with the Sharingan.
Evidence against - He's listed as dead, we saw him seemingly die.
Izuna is Tobi
Evidence for - Same Height, Weight, hair colour etc.
Evidence against - He was said to be completely blind and to have died and would have no logical reason to have lived as long as he has.
With evidence in contrary or many popular theories, it would be a point where I wouldn't want things to be changed. But to go back to Scorch Release
Scorch Release is made of Fire and Wind
Evidence for - A technique combining fire and wind was called scorch release, The only known Kekkei Tota is Dust Release so the possibility of a secondary element in Blaze Release being counted towards this is slim.
Evidence against - It was an off the top of Minato's head name. There was no reference to Pakura or general scorch release to imply a connection.
I added what I could for evidence against, but it still looks pretty flimsy as neither point directly opposes the idea. Here we have something where the evidence against doesn't necessarily contradict the idea and until more information is gathered this is seemingly the answer. We're just not stating it.
Now Cerez brought up what if with our assumption we're wrong, and that does happen, but so long as we state what evidence we have, that what we have is the best singular conclusion with the evidence we have, either we're proven wrong and we edit, we're proven right and we're ahead of the curve or it's not proven at all and what we're left with is the best possible solution for the evidence. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:48, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- By the Light the day has actually come where I agree with Ten Tailed Fox. Yes, a thousand times yes, that is exactly how I feel. And I was one of the people who was with the "Until it's actually stated it doesn't get added" camp for years. Over time, I have seen things like the Tobi/Obito thing, the most recent Scorch Release thing which has caused me to rethink my own actions.
- Like Hawk said, we shouldn't let things go hog wild. There has to be a logical reason in series for a logical conclusion to be met. Naruto being the Fourth Hokage's father because they look alike? That's just how you feel. Scorch Release = Fire and Wind? Two Natures = New One, Two techniques that made a makeshift Scorch Release was comprised of Fire and Wind. Logic = Scorch Release = Fire and Wind.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:51, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- For me, it all comes down to credibility. Again taking the technique used by Naruto and Sasuke: are we are to abandon all that we know previously about kekkei genkai and so forth for information we received from someone who was observing what was happening on the battlefield? If that logical conclusion sets a precedence for us to list that technique as the actual kekkei genkai Scorch Release, then again I will ask, what is stopping us from listing Naruto and Gamakichi's Wind Release: Toad Gun which employs the same characteristics of the "Scorch Release" technique as an Ice Release? Logical conclusions are already used on the wikia but what this is calling for is something entirely different. It calling for us to have more of an influence on the addition of information than is necessary. With regards to the Hashirama information, I don't know why people gripe about that, sure it's a task to change the info we have, but that it outside the span of our control. The other night I was reviewing a discussion about Hashirama using Sage Mode taught to him by slugs. An editor there noted that it was likely but not confirmed: I ask you guys, is that not a logical conclusion? Should we not have added a trivia point that it's possibly taught by the slugs and then hope we're right? And if we're wrong oh well, never mind the fact that we lose credibility or anything like that, all we need to know is that we were able to logically conclude it. There is nothing wrong with a bit of logical conclusions, it's just that I fear what you guys might be inferring by this will cost the wikia more than it will benefit us.--Cerez365™(talk) 14:23, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Thank you whoever for deleting my comment...--Elveonora (talk) 15:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I always prefer to wait for raws total information to get out, and let logic information wait, because if one or two starts publishing logic things, everyone will try to do the same, thats the only problem i have with this subject.
But there is really a need to stop waiting for information that probably will not come out and that is so obvious. We should discuss things first as always, and if the majoraty agrees following the logical. We should post it. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:03, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not saying don't wait for raws, I mean we know we'll get those and it's better to get a first hand translation from one of our editors than rely on the second or third hand by the scan groups, but that's what we're gonna have on hand and we know we'll have on hand. But we could wait through the end of the series and still not get definitive explanations on Explosion Release or Scorch Release and several other things. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Now we are at this, 3th and 4th Kazekage were NEVER stated to have used Magnet Release. It wasn't spelled out to our face, just magnetic chakra if I remember well, is that enough evidence at all? An example of a possibly false information --Elveonora (talk) 13:21, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with logical definitions, at least if they are accepted by all, or the majoraty at least, yes there are things that we really need to step up and stop waiting for information that is already in front of us. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:30, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think any of you guys fully understand what you are asking for here. Sandaime Kazeekage was never stated to use Magnet Release and it wasn't until the Yondaime used it that the information was confirmed and combined. What's so wrong in wanting to wait years for confirmation on information like that? Everyone here thought it was Magnet Release, I myself asked Shounensuki and was told that, it could be 100% true but unconfirmed so we mention the information given to us but let it alone otherwise. What is the sense in adding he obviously uses magnet release but we can't say so in the article so: triviaaaaa. Ino for another example was sensing since she did her first chūnin exams and even when every other member of her family came out as sensors we still didn't add her as such until we had concrete evidence that could be referenced to. You guys need to remember that this isn't a place where we come and can show people in your faces, we're more learned in Naruto than you are, we're a encyclopaedia, and we're supposed to do what encyclopaedias do: record information as it is given with evidence to back it up. Wikipedia articles are already uncredited sources of information, this will only serve as a way to add uncorroborated speculation editors might have as possible facts. Still we're apparently a democracy all of a sudden so if the majority of the wikia decides to go the route of "logical conclusions" I won't fight it, people tend to learn better after they experience things. So, learn away.--Cerez365™(talk) 15:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I only support logical information that is most probably to be certain, otherwise i prefer not to. Like i already said, i prefer to have real solid evidence before adding something. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:49, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- If there is a real solid evidence, it won't be a logical conclusion. The thing is everyone has his own unique logic and considers oneself correct. This would only lead to revert wars if not addition of tons of speculations to the article.--~Ulti Sup~ 16:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- And that's what I am worried about. We do use logical conclusions here, but but the extent that is being proposed is adding what we feel to be a likely outcome. It is always better to err on the side of caution.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why I was more concerned with things that make sense based on what we already do know. I don't even know why the Third and Fourth Kazekage are listed under Magnet Release but I would have been dandy with that lovely (Presumed) tag we seemed to have phased out. As I've said, my issue is with us trying hard to ignore things we already know unless it is spelled out to us before hand. Add to that we move as if we can never edit anything once its up ever and it looks like we are just afraid to do practically anything.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
- And that's what I am worried about. We do use logical conclusions here, but but the extent that is being proposed is adding what we feel to be a likely outcome. It is always better to err on the side of caution.--Cerez365™(talk) 17:33, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
Well, given Cerez' responses on the Hell Stab talk page, I think we can call that a concensus for giving this a go. So I guess now I find an admin and see about setting up some new guidelines if at all possible. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 04:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
As requested. Please discuss further on this page's talk page. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 08:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is saying "yes" to this. Rather, I can see Cerez being sarcastic about saying "yes", while really meaning "no". I don't know why a policy was made on a whimsical decision when it's not decided. --Speysider Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | Channel 13:32, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
- It wasn't.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:18, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
I'm rather late to this party, and forgive me if I'm repeating someone (did not read everything), but I think that there are logical conclusions, and there are logical conclusions. The kind of conclusion I have the most issue with are ages. I believe that if loads of comparisons are necessary to determine an age or a duration, or anything timeline related, we should stay clear or it, specially if someone else, doing the same, reaches a different result. The biggest example of this I can think of is Obito's age, and all the things that go along with it, such as Kakashi's jōnin promotion age. This issue in particular is very convoluted. Those things with age and time should only be used if they're very clear, like the determination of B and Motoi's age. Other kinds of conclusions, I believe that each case is a case, and pretty much all of them can be somewhat made to work by using careful wording and placing of the information. For example, Four Black Fog Battle Formation. There was the argument to list Orochimaru as the user. Orochimaru wasn't list as user when the databook came out. It makes logical sense for Orochimaru to be a user, the designed of the jutsu, based on the fact that the technique is used to advance his cursed seals. Instead of going back and forth in adding and removing them, just point it out in the trivia section. Info gets listed without the need of making the leap of actually saying Orochimaru did it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:56, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
To make it easier to follow how many editors are for and against, we should stick to one page--Elveonora (talk) 16:04, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
- And the one page will be this one, not the talk page of a policy that shouldn't even have been made.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:30, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
When something isn't clear like Orochimaru using Substitute Technique, A using Hell Stab and similar cases where isn't a consensus, mentioning it in the trivia section is the way to go. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:44, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
Agree: (Add info to pages, since it makes sense logically)
Disagree: (Add in trivia section only though things make sense, but because it hasn't been directly mentioned)
Depends on the article: (Discuss in related talk page before adding info)
- Perfect. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:13, June 23, 2013 (UTC)


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For me, mantou is a compact texture and dense. It's worst when you eat it when it's cooled/ left over for few hours.
BUT!! it's totally different from these sweet potato mantou.It turned out really soft, even on the second day. hmmm...I love this recipe even it's time consuming for shaping those buns into rose shape, but it's really worth it. Especially,when I looked at everybody's happy face when they looked at those buns, that makes me happy too:)
I saw this recipe from Wendy's blog. I posted the recipe here, but hop over to her blog for step by step shaping the rose mantou.
250gm steamed purple sweet potato
200gm water
500gm pau flour
1 tsp baking powder
100gm sugar
50gm shortening/Crisco
1/4 tsp salt
11gm instant yeast
Mash sweet potato, or blitz sweet potato with almost all the water to get a fine paste. Purple varieties tend to be firmer than orange ones.
With balance of water, mix with yeast.
Combine everything except shortening and mix to form a dough.
Put in shortening and knead until dough is smooth. Add slightly more flour is dough is way too sticky to handle. If the dough is sticky but can retain its form, like not slacking down, just continue to knead, the gluten just hasn't form, there's no need to add extra flour.
Cover and let dough proof until double, about 1 hour.
Punch down dough and knead for 1-2 minutes.
Divide dough into 50gm portions and form as you wish. For rose bud formation method, please read instructions below.
Cover and let the formed dough proof until doubled for another 45 minutes.
Steam on high heat for 12 minutes.
After proofing, see the difference, love it:)
After shaping it into rose shape, need more practice...lol
Beautiful, lovely , soft and yummy mantou !!!


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Charlie Sheen's Goddesses Babysit My Kids? HELL NO!
Or: An Apology to Denise Richards
-Melissa Chapman, marriedmysugardaddy.com
If I have gleaned anything at all from this Charlie Sheen freak show, which is updated on a daily basis it's that I need to apologize to Denise Richards. PERSONALLY. All these years I thought she was the vindictive ex-wife, who would from time to time refuse to let Charlie have visitation with their two little daughters.
Up until his manic episodes, the media held up Sheen as their darling bad boy with a heart of gold, and painted Richards as an vicious ex-wife out to cut Charlie off from his progeny. But now, after bearing witness to his living arrangement, or in other words, the two goddesses who make up the three parts of his heart — the former nanny and porn star who share his home and care for his kids — I am now officially Team Denise and Team Brooke.
Who are these women shacking up with Sheen, and would I want my kids exposed to them? Baby sat, bathed by and taking cues from them? Hell no!
Read Hair Advice for Charlie Sheen's "Goddesses"
It's the conundrum so many women face when having to drop off their kids with their ex husband's new squeeze. Except these two women are anything but stable living in an environment with a man like Sheen who, based on his recent online rants and taped TV segments, believes he has tiger blood coursing through his veins and is akin to a deity.
Any woman who would put up with that type of break from reality on the part of her lover is clearly either off–balance, in denial, or just so taken with the trappings of said lover's lifestyle that she is willing to overlook the nonsensical, drug-fueled drivel that spews from his mouth.
In any event, as a mother, I would appeal to any judge who would listen to me, to bar Sheen from seeing my children and being placed in the care of those two women he calls his goddesses … wouldn't you?
Melissa Chapman blogs about her marriage and everything in between at www.marriedmysugardaddy.com. Her work has appeared in The Staten Island Advance, Care.com, ABC News, BlogHer, Baby Center, Momtourage, Lifetime Moms, Babble, The Washington Post, Time Out NY Kids and iVillage.
Read her last column: Natalie Portman to Courteney Cox: Can Men Handle More Successful Wives?


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Australian shares close higher after a big turnaround on Wall Street as American politicians said they were optimistic a budget agreement can be reached to avoid automatic spending cuts and tax increases.
- Rio to slash billions more from cost base
- Nasser talks up BHP succession planning
- Stockland picks UBS funds manager as new CEO
- Dollar up as Obama sets Christmas deadline
5.15pm: That's all from us here at blog central, we sure to join us tomorrow from 9.30am for this week's final edition of Markets Live.
Click here for a full wrap of today's session.
4.42pm: Here's how the blue chips did today:
- Rio: +0.8%
- Westpac: +0.8%
- Fortescue: +1.6%
- Woolworths: +1.2%
- Wesfarmers: +1.1%
- Telstra: -0.5%
4.30pm: The Australian dollar was subdued against the greenback today as lower corporate spending plans led to increased bets for an interest rate cut.
The dollar was last at $US1.0462 from $US1.0474 in early trade, but was still holding close to Tuesday's two-month peak of $US1.0491.
Weighing on the currency was a fall in planned business investment in the resource-rich nation for the year ending June 2013, adding pressure for the RBA to add stimulus to the economy.
"The RBA needs to lower rates further...to support the non resource parts of the economy as the capex pipeline moderates further," said Su-Lin Ong, senior economist at RBC.
4.20pm: Among the sectors, consumer staples jumped 1.1, financials added 0.7 per cent, materials rose 0.8 per cent and health bumped up 1.7 per cent. Telecommunications bucked the trend, falling 0.5 per cent.
4.14pm: The market has closed higher, buoyed by optimism that the US government will be able to deal with the coming fiscal cliff. The benchmark S&P/ASX200 added 30.4 points, or 0.7 per cent, to 4477.7, while the broader All Ords rose 27.5 points, or 0.6 per cent, to 4490.1.
4.03pm: And a final gem for today from our small business team: It takes a lot of guts to advertise your services on your competitor's website. But that's exactly what Mike Larsen did last week when he placed an ad for "Australia's worst employee" on jobs site seek.com.au.
Click here for the full story.
3.51pm: Online employment group Seek says job ads in Australia and New Zealand are down so far in 2012-13.
Chief executive Andrew Bassat said there had been a ''consistent but gradual decline in total ad volumes'' since June 30.
Mr Bassat said the advertising volume decline meant Seek's Australia and New Zealand operations - Seek's largest generator of its earnings - were expected to report flat revenue in the first half of 2012-13 compared with the prior corresponding period.
3.43pm: Nathan Tinkler's Patinack Farm thoroughbred stud has come up with the more than $240,000 it was required to pay in unpaid wages today and assured workers it hopes to keep their jobs, settle all debts in full, and will apply to terminate the liquidation begun last week.
Click here for the full story.
3.37pm: Here's something from our Small Business team, in just three decades, Jindi Cheese has gone from farmhouse operation to being acquired by a multinational dairy group for the next phase of its expansion.
Click here for the full story.
3.07pm: Rio Tinto may take a further writedown on its aluminium business at the end of this year, reflecting tough market conditions, chief financial officer Guy Elliott says.
"It's possible there will be some revisions this year, notably in aluminium," Elliott said at an investor seminar.
Rio Tinto bought the Alcan aluminium business for $US38 billion at the top of the market five years ago, taking on debt that nearly brought the company to its knees, and has been writing down the value of the business ever since.
2.50pm: As the local market trades at the day's highs, up 0.5 per cent, here's how other markets in the region are doing:
- Japan (Nikkei): +0.6%
- Hong Kong: +1%
- Shanghai: +0.1%
- Taiwan: +1.1%
- Korea: +0.9%
- India: +0.5%
- Singapore: +0.5%
- New Zealand: +0.1%
2.37pm: One for the cricket fans: Ricky Ponting is set to announce his retirement from Test cricket this afternoon.
2.33pm: Property developer Stockland's incoming chief executive Mark Steinert is concerned that Australia's sluggish housing market is weighing down earnings.
Mr Steinert, who replaces Matthew Quinn on January 14, was asked about his predecessor's recent observation that the new property sector is the worst he has seen in 20 years.
''I'm concerned it's having a negative impact on earnings,'' Mr Steinert told reporters during a conference call on Thursday.
''We'll do the very best given the market conditions.''
2.27pm: The dollar has slipped back a bit this afternoon, falling to $US1.0461 from a high of US1.0474 just after the Capex data was released.
The lacklustre business investment figures, plus speculation the US will avoid the fiscal cliff has boosted demand for higher-yielding assets and limited demand for the dollar.
''Everybody expects some resolution to the fiscal cliff,'' said Hans Kunnen, the chief economist at St. George Bank.
''The better the solution, the smoother it is, the easier it will be for the economies to grow, which is good for Australia's dollar.''
And he joined the growing push for a rate cut next week:
We think they should be cutting rates because the Australian economy is slowing. It's a 50-50 call for next week. It shouldn't lead to a large sell-off or a substantial gain in the Australian dollar.
2.15pm: State Grid Corp of China is buying a 41 per cent stake in unlisted South Australian electricity supplier ElectraNet, as the Chinese electricity giant ramps up investment in overseas assets.
State Grid, the world's largest state utility, is buying the stake from the Queensland state government's Powerlink, the companies said in separate statements.
The value of the transaction was not revealed though the Financial Review, which first reported the deal, said State Grid was paying A500 million.
2.03pm: Interesting clutch of tweets from AMP Capital's Shane Oliver on this morning's Capex data, which he says strengthens the need for the RBA to cut interest rates next week:
Solid Q3 Aust capex of +2.8%. But momentum looking bad. YOY growth halved from 28% to 14% & capex plans for this fin yr are getting weaker... ..capex plans for 2012-13 showed big downgrade and imply a halving in capex growth. Downgrade driven by mining but no pick up elsewhere ... Aust capex now likely to undershoot Govt/RBA forecasts.Capex survey highlights need for lower rates. Expect #RBA cut next wk & more next yr.
1.56pm: After 3 hours and 12 minutes the BHP AGM finally draws to a close. Nasser and Kloppers prepare to face a grilling over succession at the media conference later this afternoon
1.54pm: Speculation is mounting that Bendigo and Adelaide Bank is set to draw on the Mediterranean heritage of recently acquired Bank of Cyprus Australia.
The regional lender has lodged an application to reserve the name "Delphibank" and an associated logo.
Bendigo Bank is set to unveil the new name of its Bank of Cyprus unit in Melbourne later Thursday. A spokeswoman for Bendigo declined to comment.
1.40pm More on the dollar and positive sentiment around the US fiscal cliff.
In recent trade it was at $US1.0462, up from $US1.0448 yesterday afternoon.
CMC Markets foreign exchange dealer Tim Waterer said commentary from US president Barack Obama and House leader John Boehner had given markets a boost:
We had some positive commentary from the deal-makers in Washington, and that was warmly received by financial markets. That turnaround in risk sentiment suited the Australian dollar, and saw it edge back over the $US1.0450 level.
Mr Obama had hinted that a deal on the fiscal cliff could be brokered by Christmas.
Domestic capital expenditure data released on Thursday morning did little to move the Australian dollar, Mr Waterer said.''There was quite a muted response to that,'' he said.
''I think traders are concentrating on the bigger global picture.''
1.25pm: It's TV shows may feature rather too prominently in the worst of 2012 lists, but Ten Network is doing very well today.
In what's been a prettty good day for many media companies - Fairfax is up 2.69 per cent, News 1.7 6per cent - shares in the beleagured network have gone up a whopping 7.58 per cent to $0.355.
1.07pm: Three hours into the day and things are looking very positive - in fact shares are at their highest in three weeks. In recent trade the All Ordinaries index is 17.8 points higher, or 0.4 per cent, to 4480.4, while the benchmark S&P/ASX200 is 20.7 points higher, or 0.5 per cent, to 4468.0.
The rise is in large part thanks to the big banks, which have all risen by more than 0.4 per cent, and Rio Tinto, which has gone up 0.62 per cent to $57.05 after its upbeat outlook on China and cost-cuting pledges.
"There are plenty of reasons to be negative but over the past few weeks we have found even more reasons to be positive," said Peter Esho, an analyst at City Index.
"The often tired and fatigued sounding Rio Tinto of only a few months ago is today a lot more upbeat. Rio puts forward a good convincing argument for optimism," he said, adding that "the market could get an earnings surprise next year".
12.54pm: Now back to the BHP AGM... Earlier today Jac Nasser highlighted Graham Kerr's elevation to the position of chief financial officer as proof the company's succession planning is going well.
By the time the final question from shareholders was being asked, Mr Kerr got his first chance to shine, answering a question about accounting valuations of the company's shale gas assets.
Mr Nasser continued to be impressed, bookending Mr Kerr's comments with a compliment; "You passed the test".
12.45pm: The private capital investment trend series graph is a magnificent beast - surging ever higher, carrying Australia on the resources industry's back for the past two years, safely on track to deliver an unprecedented $173 billion or so worth of investment in Australia' productive future, Michael Pascoe writes:
But the Australian Bureau of Statistics' record of the capex spend in the September quarter isn't the most important part of today's release - it's the dip in expectations about how much will be invested by the end of this financial year.
The beauty of the capex survey is that it asks the nation's CFOs not just what they have spent, but what they think they will spend. The latest survey shows a 3.3 per cent dip from their intentions three months earlier, with most of that coming from an 8.1 per cent pull back in mining.
12.35pm: BHP AGM: Marius Kloppers has spoken expansively at the AGM about the controversial Browse gas project, which is designed to see a large LNG plant be built at the environmentally and culturally sensitive James Price Point near Broome in Western Australia.
BHP is one of several minority stakeholders in that project, beneath operator Woodside Petroleum, and there has been constant speculation that a floating LNG plant would be a better option than building the plant on land.
When asked about that debate, Kloppers reminded the audience that federal and state regulators had deemed that James Price Point be the "only" site investigated under the lease arrangements.
The CEO said he was not seeking to comment on the James Price Point site specifically, but went on to indicate that such a narrow focus was not ideal.
"As an industrial company, more options is always more valuable," he said. "That would be my general attitude."
Kloppers said that when the full investigations were completed, each joint venture partner would have the option to invest or walk away from the project. Royal Dutch Shell is also a joint venture partner in Browse.
12.19pm: A senior economist at NAB Capital, David de Garis, says the downgrades to spending plans could be enough to convince the Reserve to cut the cash rate at its board meeting next week:
- From a policy point of view the outlook is always the key thing. ''It's keeping the door open to more easing in December.
- Despite the stronger-than-expected result for the September quarter, the numbers suggest the pull-back in investment activity was ''broad-based'' across mining and other industries.
Markets are now betting there is a 72 per cent chance of a rate cut next week, up from a 60 per cent chance before the data was released.
12.16pm: The Australian share market opened the trading day relatively flat today as investors remained confused about US fiscal cliff negotiations, says CMC Markets trader Miguel Audencial:
- Higher than expected Australian new home sales and private capital expenditure figures may give traders a reason to place buy orders.
- German unemployment figures are due to be released tonight, while US quarterly GDP data, unemployment numbers, and pending home sales figures are expected on Friday night.
- Although these are important for investors, these numbers are likely to take a back seat once again to any fiscal cliff related developments.
12.11pm: The dollar, on the other hand, is pretty flat, hardly reacting to the capital expenditure number, even falling back after the higher than predicted result.
The dollar was at $US1.0470 prior to the capex release, upon announcement jumped to $US1.0474, but quickly faded to $US1.0463.
"It's off a little bit, but to be honest, the Aussie dollar is more in line with what's going on in US equity markets," says Thomas Averill, currency strategist at Rochford Capital. "People are just absorbed by negotiations around the US fiscal cliff, I think that's going to be the biggest determinant of the Aussie's direction in the short-term."
Looking forward to next week's RBA board meeting, the market has not priced in a rate cut which could affect the dollar once the market is alert to the decision.
"If we do see an interest rate cut, I do expect the Aussie dollar to be sold off as a consequence of that," Averill says.
12.02pm: Meanwhile, the sharemarket is trading at the day's highs, up 0.4 per cent. The materials sectors is up 0.3 per cent, financials have added 0.5 per cent and consumer staples gain 0.8 per cent. Telcos are down 0.4 per cent, led by a 2 cents drop in Telstra.
11.59am: The capex numbers are a bit a stronger than expected and that seems to have come mainly in plant and equipment, which is a good sign for the national accounts, says AMP Capital Investors chief economist Shane Oliver:
- It looks like companies are revising down the rate of growth in capex in 2012/13 which is consistent with the concerns that we'll see a peak in mining investment next year, and the bulk of the downgrades came in the mining sector.
- For the RBA it's probably neutral, yes it's stronger for the September quarter but against that the forward looking estimate look a bit softer, so you could say those two cancel each other out.
11.53am: Following the capex numbers, Arab Bank's David Scutt reckons the focus now shifts to the RBA, with the chances of a rate cut on the way up:
Question now is will the #RBA ease in Dec to help h'holds/businesses take up the slack? Odds are now 67% for a cut according to rate futures— David Scutt (@David_Scutt) November 29, 2012
11.46am: BHP AGM: The second question comes from an angry shareholder named Jack, who is concerned about the level of shareholder returns.
In a fiery burst, he describes BHP's rate of shareholder returns as: lousy, miserable, mean, below expectation, unfair, unreasonable and unjust.
"The question is why aren't we getting more?"
Nasser responds to the rant by saying "excellent question"...
Meanwhile, BHP's shares are up 0.2 per cent, after opening slightly lower.
11.40am: The housing sector posted a slight recovery in October, with new home sales lifting after three months of falls.
The Housing Industry Association (HIA) new home sales report showed 3.4 per cent increase for the month, after drops of 3.7 per cent and 5.3 per cent in September and August respectively.
Sales fell 5.6 per cent in July. The overall rise was fuelled by an increase of 31.4 per cent in multi-unit sales, while sales of detached houses fell 2.0 per cent in October - the fifth decline in six months.
11.38am: On a lighter note, BHP chairman Jac Nasser concedes that he is annoyed by the high number of acronyms used across BHP's massive operations. Ironic for a man speaking at the "BHP AGM"...
11.35am: And back to the BHP meeting, which seems a bit more exciting thant the capex figures (for now):
The first question from the floor is about the BMA coal alliance in Queensland, which was dogged by bad weather and industrial problems over the past 18 months.
The shareholder wants to know when BMA will perform to capacity. BHP chief executive Marius Kloppers responds by saying: "we are well on the way to returning that to what I would call normal operating conditions."
11.31am: The dollar hardly reacted to the numbers, trading at $US1.0473 or about the level it was trading at a couple of minutes ago.
11.30am: Capex figures are out: private capital expenditure rose 2.8 per cent in the third quarter, beating expectations of a 2 per cent rise.
11.27am: Back at the BHP AGM, chairman Jac Nasser has cited this year's elevation of Graham Kerr to the role of chief financial officer as an example of how the company's long term succession planning is working well.
Succession planning is one of the hot topics at today's annual meeting of BHP shareholders in Sydney, following recent reports that the company has accelerated the process of finding a replacement for chief executive Marius Kloppers.
Kloppers' speech did not contain any reference to the recent controversy, but Nasser spoke about the issue at length, reiterating BHP's commitment to continuous succession planning.
"Succession planning and executive development is a process and not an event, and at BHP Billiton this process is ongoing and thorough," he said.
11.22am: Focus is now turning to the third-quarter capex data out at 11.30am. Expectations are for a 2 per cent rise in private capital expenditure, down from a 3.4 per cent rise last quarter.
The dollar is trading at $US1.0470, still stuck below the level of $US1.05.
11.10am: More here from BHP. Edwin Mejia, a union leader from Colombia, said he had travelled all the way from the South American country to highlight the issues facing mining workers and people living near mines.
"Workers experience very bad conditions [in Colombia] compared to the workers in Australia," Mr Mejia said, citing the town of Albania as an example.
"Why? We are coming to ask to be treated the same as Australian workers."
Mr Mejia said union leaders have been facing death threats from paramilitaries in Colombia and he hoped to receive support from Australian unions and to increase the pressure on the Colombian government to act.
11.07am: The big banks are higher after the first hour of trade:
- CBA is 0.23% higher to $59.11
- ANZ is 0.63% higher to $23.97
- NAB is 0.17% higher to $23.92
- Westpac is 0.23% higher to $25.09
11.03am: IG Markets analyst Stan Shamu said the Australian market had opened in positive territory after Wall Street posted solid gains overnight spurred by encouraging remarks by President Barack Obama and House Speaker John Boehner on averting looming tax hikes and spending cuts that could push the economy into recession, the so-called ''fiscal cliff''.
''It seems like they're happy to work together to come up with some sort of deal before the end of the year,'' Mr Shamu said.
''Obama even went as far as to say he hoped to have something done by Christmas.
''That really did encourage investors to bid the market higher. It's a headline risk market at the moment as investors continue to react to remarks made by US politicians.''
10.58am: BHP stocks are 0.2 per cent higher as the company fronts shareholder. Rio shares, after the company announced another cost-cutting drive, are 0.63 per cent higher, and Fortescue is 0.26 per cent higher.
10.55am: More from BHP. Outside the annual meeting, shareholders were mixed about Mr Kloppers' time as chief executive and whether BHP needed to announce a formal succession plan. Shareholder Lo Hak said a plan to replace Mr Kloppers had to be put in place.
"Just like any other big organisation, there should be a smooth transition from one [chief executive] to another," he said.
Another shareholder, who did not want to be named, said he was not concerned about the speculation surrounding Mr Kloppers.
"At the end of the day, they are not doing well," he said. "I've not been happy with BHP. The share price is down and the dividend is not great."
10.50am: File this under 'conversation starter'. Reuters columnist Felix Salmon has written an interesting piece about stock-picking, men and the media. He writes:
One thing worth noting here: stock picking, even more than golf, is an overwhelmingly male hobby. Put aside all the mathematics about how individual investors consistently underperform the market and pay enormous fees to various financial-service middlemen; all you really need to know is that if something is done only by men, it probably isn't particularly sensible. Read more.
10.45am: The first morsels from inside the BHP AGM are beginning to arrive. BHP Billiton chairman Jac Nasser says he does not expect any significant increase in iron ore prices soon, following a year of heavy falls in Australia's biggest export earner.
He also told shareholders at the company's annual general meeting in Sydney that China's growth rate would not continue at the same pace, but that was expected.
A more sustainable rate would follow in line with how other major economies have developed.
The company was also committed to a succession process for when chief executive Marius Kloppers departs, which it recently told the ASX it had started.
10.43am: And another:
10.41am: Here's a couple of pics from roving reporter Glenda Kwek from outside the BHP AGM:
10.35am: Media stocks are back in favour this morning, way out ahead of the general market:
- Fairfax (publisher of this site): +2.15%
- News: +1.36%
- Ten: +4.55%
10.32am: One of the components of the much-talked about fiscal cliff is a likely increase in the rate dividend payments are taxed at and to avoid that, many US companies have been paying out ''special dividends''.
Overnight, retailing monster Costco announced it would pay a special dividend totaling roughly $US3 billion ($A2.9 billion), the largest payout so far.
In some cases, insiders are among the biggest beneficiaries of the special dividend. That is not the case at Costco, which is relatively democratic in its share ownership, but other companies have seen big shareholders get huge payouts. More here.
10.28am: BHP's AGM has not only attracted investors. At least 50 protesters - from environmentalists to a Colombian union leader - have gathered outside today's meeting.
10.22am: Some of the better performed companies on the ASX200:
- Ten: +4.55%
- Intrepid: +3.33%
- Fairfax: +3.23%
- Aristocrat Leisure: +2.62%
- Arrium: +2.21%
10.18am: Materials stocks are leading the market lower, but not heavily - they're down 0.17 per cent. Here's how other sectors on the ASX200 are performing:
- Consumer disc: +0.5%
- Info tech: +0.34%
- Financials: +0.14%
- Health: -0.14%
- Telecoms: 0.11%
- Energy: -0.07%
10.13am: Markets are flat, flat, flat. The benchmark S&P/ASX200 index is up 2.3 points, or 0.05 per cent, at 4,449.6, while the broader All Ordinaries index is up 1.7 points, or 0.04 per cent, at 4,464.3.
On the ASX 24, the December share price index futures contract was up eight points at 4,459, with 5,930 contracts traded.
10.07am: At the scene, BusinessDay's Glenda Kwek says ahead of the start of the BHP annual meeting and protesters outside the Sydney Convention Centre have been unveiling their banners. After unfolding the "BHP Dirty Deeds" one, someone yells, "Are you ready to rock?"
10.05am: Those listening into the AGM over the website are being treated to an instrumental muzak version of Tom Petty's 'Free Fallin' while they wait for the festivities to begin about 10.30am. Surely that's not a portent for the share price?
9.56am: Property group Stockland has appointed a fund manger with UBS, Mark Steinert, as its new chief executive. Mr Steinert will replace outgoing chief executive Matthew Quinn, who has been in the role for 12 years, on January 14.
Mr Quinn announced his intention to retire earlier in 2012.Mr Steinert has been with UBS sine 1994, where he began as the global head of real estate research and co-head of real estate in Australia and New Zealand.
9.51am: Some analyst rating changes for today:
- Harvey Norman cut to hold at Deutsche Bank
- Aristocrat Leisure raised to outperform at Credit Suisse
- Senex Energy rated new hold at Deutsche Bank
- JB Hi-Fi cut to neutral at JP Morgan
- Rex Minerals cut to neutral at JP Morgan
- Mastermyne cut to hold at from buy at Patersons
- CSL raised to buy at BofA-Merrill Lynch
- Aurora Oil raised to outperform at Credit Suisse
9.47am: Other AGMS we'll have today include SEEKI, Lend Lease, Village Roadshow and Macquarie Roadshow, where there could be some fireworks following the dramas Alan Jones has been at the centre of in recent times.
9.44am: The BHP AGM kicks off at around 10.30am and there's expected to be a lot of news from both inside and out. BusinessDay's Glenda Kwek will be there to take in the protestor action, while Peter Ker will be filing on the speculation surrounding Marius Kloppers' tenure as CEO and any other corporate news springing from the event.
9.41am: Rio Tinto has made headlines this morning by announcing it will cut deeper into its cost base with plans to slash $5 billion in costs by the end of 2014.
Resources reporter Peter Ker writes that the campaign comes after a year of steep cost cutting that saw hundreds of jobs lost in Australia, particularly the Sydney corporate office, and will see the company's exploration budget cut by $1 billion.
Rio said capital expenditure will also "taper off" next year, with most analysts expecting the spend in 2013 to be close to $US14 billion: several billion dollars below spending rates in 2012. The company said sustaining capital expenditure would fall by more than $US1 billion next year. Read the full story here.
9.38am: It looks like we're in for a busy day and it's going to have resources focus with BHP's AGM and a Rio investor seminar. More on those in a moment.
In economics news we're expecting:
- ABS private new capital expenditure and expected expenditure, June quarter 2012
- Housing Industry Association new home sales for October
9.36am: For a comprehensive look at this morning's business news, check today's need2know. Here are this morning's key market links:
- The SPI was 18 points higher at 4469
- The $A was trading at $US1.0476
- In the US, the S&P500 was 0.74% higher to 14009.29
- In Europe, the FTSE100 added 0.06% to 5803.28
- China iron ore was flat at $US117.90 a metric tonne
- Gold lost 1.5% to $US1718.80 an ounce
- WTI crude oil fell 88 US cents to $US86.30 a barrel
- RJ/CRB commodities index lost 0.01% to 297.77
9.34am: Good morning folks. Welcome to the Markets Live blog for Thursday.
Contributors: Thomas Hunter, Jens Meyer, Richard Hughes
This blog is not intended as investment advice
BusinessDay with agencies


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Dog-friendly Lapford, 3 People & Car Parking
Virginia Cottage is a pretty, listed, thatched cottage set in the heart of the village of Lapford. With its origins dating from the 16th-century, the cottage boasts many of the features you would expect from a cottage of this age including beams and an inglenook fireplace.
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First NO: IL Constitutional Amendment defeated
by Nathan Goldbaum | 11/07/2012
From the Chicago Sun-Times
Pension amendment to Illinois Constitution fails
ASSOCIATED PRESS November 7, 2012 8:38AM
Updated: November 7, 2012 11:01AM
Illinois voters have rejected a proposed amendment to the state constitution that would have made it more difficult to expand public employee retirement benefits.
With about 90 percent of the vote reported on Wednesday morning the proposed amendment had support from 56 percent of Illinoisans who voted on the measure. But that fell short of the two criteria needed for passage.
The measure needed a favorable vote from either three-fifths of those voting on the measure, or 50 percent of the total number of votes cast in Tuesday's election. Nearly 5 million people voted in the election.
With lawmakers stalemated on how to fix a severely underfunded pension system, the amendment would have required a three-fifths vote of the Legislature — instead of a simple majority — to increase pension benefits for public employees.
Illinois pension systems are in a financial mess, and some critics say legislators too often grant better benefits without worrying about the cost. The amendment was intended to rein in lawmakers who might ram a pension increase through the General Assembly.
It's also a reaction to cases of special benefits being provided to well-connected people, such as two union lobbyists who qualified for teachers' pensions after spending just one day as substitute teachers.
Critics pointed out the change would do nothing to make up an $85 billion shortfall in the amount owed to five public pension systems. And it would rarely have an effect on pension-boost votes.
Most pension "sweeteners" have been approved by overwhelming majorities, and the increases are a small part of the financial problem. They account for only 9 percent of growth in the pension shortfall over the past 15 years.
Besides raising the vote requirement in the Legislature, the amendment also would raise the requirement for city councils, school boards and other public bodies to pass anything that would increase pension costs, aside from higher wages. Critics say this invites a storm of lawsuits over exactly what would be covered by the amendment.
Some voters seemed confused by the wording of the ballot measure Tuesday, uncertain whether a "yes" vote represented support for public employees or support for fiscal restraint.
"I skipped that one," said Heather Englehart, 37, of Naperville. "I tried, but the way they're worded can be tricky, and I don't like to vote unless I know what I'm voting for."
Other voters said they felt well informed on the issue.
In Springfield, Lynn McClanahan, 42, a retail grocery manager, said she voted yes because she doesn't believe public workers should be entitled to more benefits than other workers.
"We all work hard and we should all share the burden together," McClanahan said.
Erika Miner, 34, of Champaign, also voted against the amendment.
"I do have some friends that are teachers (and) my mom was a teacher," Miner said. "Anything that's going to affect their pensions — that's a big deal to me."
Copyright 2012 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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There is a new Ibotta coupon for $0.50/1 gallon of White Milk . This is great because it works all stores that use Ibotta and is good on ANY brand! Who doesn't want to save on milk!?!
If you are not signed up yet for Ibotta it is FREE and so easy to use. Plus NEW users get an additional $2 back when they redeem their first offer within 10 days of joining! Sign up here and use your smartphone or tablet to access the app!
Ibotta is great money saving app.
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Get $0.50 off milk any brand!
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The Fabulous and Worst Dressed on the VH1 Divas Celebrates Soul Red Carpet
Estelle looked glam in gold, Jennifer Hudson's boots were to die for, and more!
-PJ Gach
All that talent under one roof at the Hammestein Ballroom last night in New York City for the VH1 Divas Celebrates Soul concert was amazing. It's a wonder that the roof didn't blow off from it all.
While the cast of the Jersey Shore didn't show up, the cast of Mob Wives and Siggy Flicker of Why Am I Still Single did — probably under duress. It appears that if you're on a reality show on either MTV or VH1, you have to show up at their events.
Let's get on with who the glam divas were and who needs more rehearsal time.
Florence Welch
Florence Welch embodied cool, elegant style. We love her tonal embroidered dress and attached capelet.
From her high-wattage smile to her golden gown, Estelle radiated superstar.
Jill Scott
Jill Scott's a vision in blue — or should we say, Rhapsody in Blue?
Jennifer Hudson
Yes, Jennifer Hudson's satiny appliquéd dress is fabulous. The boots! OMG! The boots are breathtaking! Look at those glittery, strappy wonders!
Read 10 Best Dressed Celebrities of 2011
Mary J. Blige
Mary J. Blige looks like a cool spring breeze in this column gown. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: she would look magnificent wearing a Hefty bag.
Janell Snowden
VH1 news correspondent Janell Snowden looks totes adorbs in her black sheath, killer necklace and cap-toe heels.
Siggy Flicker
Siggy Flicker, the matchmaker who once said, "Patti Stanger isn't in my league," looks great in her bright red dress and leopard print heels.
Dolly Parton
You may ask "Why is Dolly Parton on the best dressed list?" It's because no matter the decade, she stays true to herself. Instead of wearing trends, she wears what she thinks is awesome. That's pretty awesome.
Jesse J played Peek-a-Boo up next!


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April 5, 2010
Three-Lunker Weekend Puts Race to Toyota ShareLunker 500 in High Gear
Only three fish to go to reach the 500 mark
ATHENS — Three more Toyota ShareLunkers have been added to the season's tally, and spawning of the big bass is about to begin at the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center.
The Race to 500 count reached 497 late Sunday with the entry of a fish from Lake Amistad. On Saturday O.H. Ivie Reservoir produced its fifth and sixth Toyota ShareLunkers of the season.
Steve Hand of Snyder kicked off the big weekend about 9:50 a.m. April 3 when he caught Toyota ShareLunker 495, a 13.22-pound largemouth, on O.H. Ivie. He was fishing in 10 feet of water using a Zoom six-inch lizard.
At three o'clock that afternoon Mark Worthington of Abilene landed Toyota ShareLunker 496. That fish bit a seven-inch red shad Senko in 10 feet of water on O.H. Ivie.
Both fish were weighed and held for pickup by Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) ShareLunker program manager David Campbell at Concho Park Marina, an official ShareLunker weigh and holding station.
"It was an awesome feeling," Steve Hand said. "I never felt the bite. I just moved the worm a little bit, and she nudged it. I felt the weight and set the hook, and the fight was on."
Hand is an old hand at fishing Ivie. "I fish Ivie probably 15 to 20 times a year," he said. "I think everybody who fishes O.H. Ivie realizes that the fishing this year way exceeds anything in the past except the first two or three years when the lake was new. The last two or three years the lake has produced a lot of good fish. I think a lot of that is because of what you all [Texas Parks and Wildlife Department] do-spawning fish out, bringing them back, putting them back in the lake. And the bass fishermen all appreciate it. Without [TPWD], we wouldn't have the fish we have."
Mark Worthington's day ended up a lot more interesting than it started. "I didn't have a whole lot of luck until the last cast of the day," he said. "We were fishing off the north island with a seven-inch red shad Senko. I tossed it in a tree, and I guess she was sitting in the top of the tree. She put up a real good fight. She swam out to deep water instead of staying in the tree and pulled drag several times. Then I had trouble getting her to fit in the net she was so big."
Worthington agreed with Hand that the fishing on O.H. Ivie is a bass angler's dream. "The fishing has always been good here," he said. "It's probably one of the best eight- to 10-pound lakes in the state. We fish Falcon and some of the other lakes, but I really like Ivie."
At about 7:30 p.m. April 4, Joseph Burgi of Del Rio was fishing in 20 feet of water at Marker 7 on Lake Amistad when he caught a 13.37-pounder on a pumpkinseed Berkley Power Worm. Burgi took his fish to Anglers Lodge, an official ShareLunker weigh and holding station, where it was picked up by TPWD staff from A.E. Wood Fish Hatchery in San Marcos. David Campbell picked the fish up there and arrived in Athens shortly before noon April 5.
Burgi's fish is the third this season from Amistad. Lake Fork has also produced three fish this season.
The three big bass arrived at the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center in Athens just as hatchery staff began pairing female ShareLunkers with males in preparation for spawning. A video of that process is at www.facebook.com/sharelunkerprogram.
ShareLunker offspring are stocked into lakes that produced entries into the ShareLunker program during the current season. So far this season 26 fish have come from 13 public lakes and two private ones, all of which will be receiving lunker offspring, assuming the big bass cooperate.
Anyone legally catching a 13-pound or bigger largemouth bass from Texas waters, public or private, between October 1 and April 30 may submit the fish to the Toyota ShareLunker program by calling program manager David Campbell at (903) 681-0550 or paging him at (888) 784-0600 and leaving a phone number including area code. Fish will be picked up by TPWD personnel within 12 hours.
Anglers entering fish into the Toyota ShareLunker program receive a free replica of their fish, a certificate and ShareLunker clothing and are recognized at a banquet at the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center in Athens. In addition, if a Texas angler catches the largest entry of the year, that person receives a lifetime fishing license.
The angler who catches Toyota ShareLunker 500 will receive $500 a pound-a minimum of $6,500-for the catch. In addition, G. Loomis and Shimano will award the angler a rod and reel package worth $650.
Because of the value of the prize package, ShareLunker 500 will be X-rayed, and the angler will be required to take a polygraph test to prove that the fish was legally caught and entered according to program rules, which require that fish be turned over to TPWD within 12 hours of being caught.
For complete information and rules of the ShareLunker program, tips on caring for big bass and a recap of last year's season, see tpwd.texas.gov/sharelunker. The site also includes a searchable database of all fish entered into the program along with pictures where available.
Information on current catches, including short videos of interviews with anglers, is posted on www.facebook.com/sharelunkerprogram.
The Toyota ShareLunker Program is made possible by a grant to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Foundation from Gulf States Toyota. Toyota is a long-time supporter of the Foundation and Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, providing major funding for a wide variety of education, fish, parks and wildlife projects.
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(5.4.16 i)


text: News Article Telepresence Robots – Cool, But What's the Point? Simon Dudley Published November 12, 2013 in Business Daily You're sitting at your desk reading this and I bet I can guess exactly what you're thinking: "I just wish there was a creepy remote control robot driving around the office like it was a sentient rogue Roomba." Well actually, maybe you aren't thinking that, and that's exactly my point. See the Report


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AMD Teases Forthcoming Dual-GPU Video Cardby Ryan Smith on 3/13/2014 7:45 PM EST
- Posted in
- Radeon
- GPUs
- Radeon 200
35 Comments
Back to Article
JDG1980 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkI'd like to see a quad-Pitcairn card targeted at miners with a price point around $500-$750. Pitcairn has the best KH/$ ratio, and four chips could push 1600-2000 KH/sec, which would get the miners to leave the gaming cards alone. Reply
ImSpartacus - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkAMD is selling plenty of gaming cards right now, so why cannibalize their sales with an R&D-intensive SKU that's only usable to one slice of their users? Reply
The Von Matrices - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkIt's also worth noting that part of the allure of cards to miners is that they can be resold as gaming cards as the difficulty increases or if the market tanks. A specialized SKU would lose all its resale value in these scenarios, so it would have to be very attractively priced to appeal to miners. Reply
jasonelmore - Saturday, March 15, 2014 - linkthis guy knows what he's talkin about. Nobody wants a outdated, less efficient mining card. With mining, its GO FAST or GO BROKE. Litecoin and maybe dougecoin is the only reason GPU's are still being used. Reply
mikato - Monday, March 17, 2014 - linkYou'll notice in ebay auctions that people are often stating a video card wasn't used for cryptocoin mining. This may become a common thing, but I guess there may be people who don't think to ask and don't consider it so they can still sell for close to a market price. However less potential buyers may mean lower resale price and I think people that are up on their hardware news will want to know. Reply
The Von Matrices - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkI don't see why AMD would need to do this. The type of R&D needed would be something easily achievable by the individual vendors like what ASUS does with its dual GPU solutions. Reply
xaml - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkGamers might fight back, metaphorically, by C4-ing the pillars of the mines of such criminal virtual currencies. Reply
allknowingeye - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkAny who is spending money on GPU's for mining is well pretty clueless. Custom ASIC's are where the scene is at, from the same price you get ten times the hashing performance or more than a GPU with significantly less power usage. The best a 290x can do is about 1.1 Ghash where a $250 Custom Asic box you can plug into a USB port can do up to 7Ghash. And to make a profit you really need to be doing a lot more Ghashing than that. The difficulty factor has increased to the point that a Gpu is not going to produce much of anything, and will likely not even pay for the power consumed. Reply
JDG1980 - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkIf you're talking about gigahashes, you're talking about Bitcoin (and other SHA-256 cryptocurrencies). Everyone knows these are purely the realm of ASICs now, and have been for some time. The GPU miners usually go for Litecoin, Dogecoin, or other Scrypt-based cryptocurrencies, which are more ASIC-resistant since they have substantial requirements for low-latency RAM. There are some ASICs out there, but the ones released so far are underwhelming: a unit with five Gridseed chips costs about $250-$300 and generates about 350 KH/sec at most, whereas a $149 R7 265 card can get 420+ KH/sec if tuned properly. The Gridseed ASICs do have much lower power consumption, but not enough to offset that substantial price difference (even when you factor in overhead for motherboards, PSUs, etc.) Reply
ol1bit - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkLOL, money for nothing....I think that is a song. :-P Reply
nastyemu25 - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkOhhhh man... the delicious irony. Someone calling out others as clueless then going on to make a completely misinformed statement.
Ain't nobody mining bitcoins with GPU's guy-- they use them to mine scrypt-based coins for which ASIC's either don't exist, or haven't yet approached an acceptable ROI. Reply
Flunk - Monday, March 17, 2014 - linkGridseed ASIC, the ROI is ok they cost slightly more than ATi GPUs but use massively less power. That's the only scrypt ASIC I can think of. Reply
kmi187 - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkHas it ever occured to you that, if so many people are still buying gpu's for mining ... you might be the misinformed one? Reply
Flunk - Monday, March 17, 2014 - linkI'm not sure you'd actually be able to use any more cards on one system because each GPU in AMD and Nvidia's multi-GPU cards shows up as an independent PCI-E device. Isn't there a hard limit on the number of video cards on most boards? Reply
nathanddrews - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkThe picture is of two halves, not two whole... intentional? Aside from that, who's in the picture? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkSorry that's not clear. That's me (taken from my Google+ profile). Reply
ImSpartacus - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkThe Tech Report's Scott Wasson got the same treatment:
http://techreport.com/news/26159/somehow-this-tran... Reply
Homeles - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkAs did PCPer's Ryan Shrout. Reply
Alexvrb - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkHilarious! I like what they're doing to engage with reviewers ahead of time. I'm interested to see what they cook up, if only to see how well they keep power and thermals under control.
Actually what I'd like to see is an official (and thus AMD-supported) dual Bonaire XTX card to attack a much more mainstream section of the market. Such an animal at $200 or so would be interesting to see. Reply
The Von Matrices - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkWhich is kind of ironic because Anand took the photo.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7368/amd-gpu-product... Reply
The Von Matrices - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkAMD is starting to get the viral marketing thing right since if there's one thing the company needs badly its effective advertising.
I still know how they (or any graphics company) could ever beat NVidia's GTX 690 launch where all the reviewers were sent crowbars. Watching the forums light up with Half Life 3 speculation was comical to watch. Reply
Mr Perfect - Friday, March 14, 2014 - link#Meh #Whatever Reply
TiGr1982 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkIf that's dual Hawaii board - I'm intrigued to see such a monstrosity - in a GOOD sense, I mean.
Water cooler coming at stock? Or just advanced triple fan, similar to HD 7990?
But if it's just a re-branded HD 7990, then it's not so interesting. Reply
piroroadkill - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkNo way would they waste all this marketing on a 7990 rehash.
It's guaranteed to be dual Hawaii. But in what configuration? Their stock cooler for single Hawaii was godawful, so...
(Then again, the 7990 one was decent). Reply
xaml - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkOne midday in the early fifties...
"Mom, do I smell slapsticks?"
"Yes, son, they are shrimpies. Was there any mail? How was school?"
"Something about Kepler. And someone called Maxwell. There is a large envelope, a file with my photograph split in two in order to make a claim that everything will be better if I doubled."
"I already paid for it at the grocery store, do they want me to pay even more now? These communists!" Reply
Ken_g6 - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkI think your Mom's comparison is apt. Having two GPU cores is great for getting video processing done, but you'll pay for it at the electric company. Reply
Alexvrb - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkYes clearly they're targeting this for low-power eco-rigs. Anyway, with proper binning and tweaking, it will draw considerably less than two seperate Hawaii cards. Reply
dwade123 - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkTwice the GPU, twice the temperature. Reply
ShieTar - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkSomehow I doubt that they will sell a card with a 700K temperature set-point. Reply
DukeN - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkMaybe they're just big fans of 2 girls 1 up videos.. Reply
mwildtech - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkI'm sure Nvidia will think of something to crash the party... Maybe a dual GK110?? Reply
Putus9 - Monday, March 17, 2014 - linkNope, i hope make Titan 2 instead, a single gpu with the performance of 780ti SLI. Reply
Putus9 - Monday, March 17, 2014 - link*Nvidia make Reply
Mombasa69 - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkA few months ago I bought 2 'Sapphire R9-280X Toxic' GPU's, best thing I ever did, they're bloody awesome! Reply
xwebnetwork - Saturday, March 22, 2014 - linkConsider this your notice in advance. Scrypt coins, like SHA256 before them, will be dominated by ASICs very soon. If you already have GPU miners set up, have a look at Ultracoin. It is being proclaimed as one of the most power efficient, quickest transacting coins ever developed. It is ASIC resistant and most global transactions are confirmed in sub 30 seconds, which is a massive improvement over other alts, especially considering E-Commerce and movement of capital. http://ultracoin.net Reply