text:
Health Contributions Bill, 1971: Committee and Final Stages.
Wednesday, 21 July 1971
Seanad Eireann Debate
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
Dr. Belton: Subsection (2) states:
Save as otherwise provided in section 4 of this Act, health contributions shall be payable by persons who, by virtue of section 46 of the Act of 1970, have limited eligibility for services under Part IV of that Act, not being either persons referred to in section 46 (1) (d) of that Act or persons belonging to a class prescribed for the purpose of this section.
This impinges on what we have already discussed. It is correct to say that by placing No. 6 on the Order Paper today before this item we save time in that we would be discussing on section 2— we may have to have discussion on section 3—as to what "limited eligibility" means.
The Minister has made an effort to define "limited eligibility" in the regulations. However, it is not as cut and dried as most things of this nature should be. I can see a difficulty in having very definite grades such as a very definite lower limit and a very definite upper limit. I can see certain advantages in that, but there are other elements that enter into it. I will not delay the House any further on this point because I have put down an amendment to section 3 and when that comes up for discussion I can speak on the question of eligibility. So far as I am concerned I am prepared to let section 2 stand.
Mr. Boland: As Senator Belton has said, the earlier discussion relates to this discussion. The Minister will recall my asking him about the possibility of extending the limited liability clause in future to all classes of employed persons. If the Minister decided that this was practicable and that it was a good thing, would he be entitled to so extend it under this section? In other words, could he extend the limited liability class to such an extent as to embrace virtually all employed persons, or would it require a further Bill? As it stands, it would require the introduction [1715] of a new piece of legislation, whereas with some slight modifications of this Bill he could have provided for what will be inevitable in the next few years.
Mr. Childers: I understand that there is no need to bring in a new Bill. This Bill could be used, and if by chance there was an extension from £1,600 to a higher figure, then we should bring a regulation before the Oireachtas. The Bill could remain in its present form; it would be a matter of simply amending the upper limit, by way of regulation.
Mr. Boland: In other words, even if you abolished the income limit and defined all classes as having limited eligibility, the Bill would operate that way?
Mr. Childers: I gather so, as I have said, in relation to health.
Dr. Belton: I move amendment No. 1:
In page 3 to add to the section a new subsection as follows:—
"() The measures in this Bill shall not be implemented until the Minister by regulations defines who is entitled to a medical card."
This, of course, deals in general with the discussion we had earlier. The amendment states:
The measures in this Bill shall not be implemented until the Minister by regulations, defines who is entitled to a medical card.
That is approximately a definition of full eligibility and we had some discussion on it. However, the main reason why I put down the amendment was that the Minister in the Dáil, I think on the Second Reading, said in reply to Deputy Tully that regulations defining eligibility would be brought in during this session. In his explanatory memorandum to the regulations the Minister explains the reason for not defining full eligibility.
My amendment will not be pressed to any great extent, although it is [1716] desirable that we have a far clearer definition of full eligibility. At least we should have some consistency throughout the country. Much of this has been adverted to already. The Minister himself called for a more consistent method of valuation throughout the country. A discrepancy in valuations from county to county exists to some extent at the moment. The decision as to who is eligible was with the county manager until the 1970 Act came in. Now it is at the discretion of the CEOs of the eight health boards established under that Act.
There is still room here for inconsistency. As I mentioned when I was speaking about the regulations, I think that if the Minister could get together the CEOs of the various regional boards and have discussions with them periodically about their methods of deciding what full eligibility is, it might go to some degree to meeting the amendment I have down here. I put it down because it is my understanding that it is quite impossible to define full eligibility. Indeed, it is quite impossible to define limited eligibility unless one has a definition of full eligibility. The lower limits of limited eligibility can never be understood until the upper limits of full eligibility are understood. It has been said that there is a certain area of greyness between the upper limits of full eligibility and the lower limits of limited eligibility. Perhaps the Minister sees some difficulty in it and may not want a complete definition of full eligibility. There should be some understanding throughout the country at large, and some consistency throughout the various regions, as to what full eligibility means.
I should like the Minister to accept my amendment, and the intent behind the amendment, I should also like him to accept the remarks that I have made and to ensure that there will be consultation between the CEOs and the Department. He should receive from the Valuation Office certain information that may be necessary when there are discrepancies from county to county as at present, and from health board to health board. Even within a health board there may be discrepancy from county to county. If the Minister [1717] would take into consideration the points I have raised here, I would be willing to withdraw the amendment. It will depend on what the Minister says.
Mr. Honan: On Second Stage we discussed at length the question of eligibility. Senator O'Brien mentioned the difficulty of having too rigid regulations. A big number of factors must be taken into account. As he rightly said, there could be two families each with an income of £16 per week but one family could be twice as well off as the other. There may be a lot of sickness in one family and there may be difficulties such as bad household management. However, I do not consider it practicable to lay down rigid rules, because they would create more hardship than they alleviate.
How this is to be finally adjudicated perplexes me. The people operating the health authority in County Clare knew practically everybody they were dealing with and they had personal knowledge of their conditions. Now that health authority has moved away. I do not know how somebody in the health authority in Limerick will be able to adjudicate on the case of a person living in Clare. I have had the experience very recently of going into the health office in Clare and being told that they had no function in this matter any more. I think myself the suggestion I made on the Second Stage of the——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister has to leave the House. Does the Senator wish to continue?
Mr. Honan: I just wanted to make the point that there will have to be some deciding person. If there were trained almoners they could act as intermediaries in the final decision between the authority and the person involved. Somebody must operate between the authority and the person. I should like once again to emphasise that an almoner is urgently required to act between the chief executive officer and the person who is making a claim.
Professor Jessop: This might be an appropriate time to ask Senator Honan not to use the word "almoner" in this [1718] connection. An almoner is somebody who gives alms. This is an ancient title given to women working in hospitals to make it easier for patients to get over their illnesses. It should not be applied to people who go around collecting information about the standard of living and so on which might be a possible disadvantage to those applying for benefits. The word is obsolete now and those concerned have asked to be known as medical social workers, and in that connection it is even less appropriate to use that kind of person for this purpose. I quite agree that somebody with a skill of that kind is required to get this information for the local authority or the chief executive officer, as the case may be. I do not think it comes within the category of the medical social worker.
Dr. Belton: The reason I have this amendment down is that, if the Minister is going to define eligibility, it should be done before the measures envisaged in this Bill are enacted. I am not disputing what Senator Honan has said; neither am I disputing the Minister's explanation in his explanatory memorandum. I quote now from col. 232, Vol. 250 of the Dáil Official Report, where Deputy Tully said:
It has been my experience that if the breadwinner, and it is the breadwinner who has to pay this extra impost, goes to hospital on very rare occasions the local health authority pay the 50p or make arrangements so that at least the person concerned does not have to pay for it. I thought the Minister would start off by deciding who is entitled to a medical card but he says he is going to bring in regulations some time to make that decision.
The Minister interjects: "This session"
Mr. Tully: The Minister did say that earlier this year and we are getting very close to the end of the session.
Mr. Childers: We are bringing it in this session definitely.
[1719] It was on that basis that I put down the amendment. It should be brought in before these measures become enacted.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I should like to inquire if Senator Belton wishes to wait until the Minister is in attendance before determining the question?
Dr. Belton: Will that point I made be brought to his notice?
Mr. Crinion: The Senator can take it that it will.
Dr. Belton: This is the reason I put down that amendment because the Minister promised it himself.
Mr. O'Higgins: If the amendment is accepted we do not need to wait for the Minister.
Dr. Belton: If the Minister is to bring it in he should bring it in before we deal with this. That was the purpose of my putting down the amendment.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Does Senator Belton wish to wait until the Minister returns in the case the Minister wishes to contribute to the discussion on the amendment?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator going to pass a remark informally or does he wish to make a further contribution to the discussion?
Dr. Belton: I told the Minister that I would wait for his reply before determining what I should do with the amendment.
Mr. Horgan: On a point of order, I wonder if the House could be informed under which provisions of the Standing Orders informal contributions are possible in a situation like this?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: As the Chair did not formally suspend the sitting, the point is in order. Difficulties have arisen from time to time due to the calling of divisions in another place.
[1720] The reason why the Chair asked Senator Belton if he was making a formal contribution or an informal comment was for the guidance of the reporters, not for any other purpose.
Mr. Childers: I have already dealt with the whole question of medical card limits in connection with the previous matter before the House. Am I to repeat it all?
Dr. Belton: No. I explained, while the Minister was absent, that the reason I put down the amendment at all was his reply to Deputy Tully that he was bringing in regulations to cover eligibility in this session. I understand the Minister's difficulty, and to some extent I agree with what Senator Honan has said about the difficulty involved in the definition of eligibility. But I felt that eligibility should be defined before the measures envisaged in the Bill were enacted. That is the reason for my putting down this amendment. But, as it is now on record, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment and let us go on to discuss the section.
Mr. Childers: I thank the Senator for withdrawing the amendment. As the operation of the health contributions scheme is not dependent on the publication of medical card limits, people who have cards may claim exemptions. I could not accept the amendment, but I have given an assurance to the House that the chief executive officers are looking into this question of providing a consistent system of full eligibility limits. They will try to do this and have group limits as consistent as possible. These will become known to the public so that everyone will be aware of the position. This will not be easy but we have prepared a great deal of statistical information. We have an officer from the Department who has been to a great many counties and has gone fully into this question. The practices very a great deal. Some counties assess full eligibility on farmers on a general valuation basis but the majority of health authorities have assessed full eligibility for farmers on an income from the farm basis. All those matters have to be gone into by the chief executive officers so that we [1721] have a consistent arrangement. That is all I need say at this stage. I went into this in some detail on the occasion of the previous regulations coming before the House.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the amendment withdrawn?
Dr. Belton: Yes, in view of the Minister's undertaking to look into it and obtain consistency, if possible.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."
Dr. Belton: Section 3 defines the rates of contribution as 15 new pence for certain classes and £7 per year for other classes.
This whole Bill was opposed by us on Second Reading and, as the Second Reading was agreed to, we now have to make do here with the best we can get out of this. It is not our intention to obstruct the Minister. If we take that imposition on the limited eligibility class, or the middle income classes as some people refer to them, in conjunction with section 12 (2) (a), it means that the Minister can increase, by regulations, the rate of contribution in either of these categories. If my reading of section 12 is correct it means that the Minister may make regulations in relation to any matter referred to in this Act as prescribed or to be prescribed. I may be wrong, but I think this is the section which empowers the Minister to increase the rate of contribution.
Mr. Childers: I cannot do it, except by resolution.
Mr. Childers: By resolution before the Dáil and the Seanad.
Mr. Childers: Either in the terms of a percentage of income or of a fixed sum. I have to come before the Dáil and the Seanad with a resolution.
Dr. Belton: A certain fear entered my [1722] mind during the Minister's reply on Second Reading. He was replying to a statement by Senators, including myself, that the new rate of contribution would be an incentive for people to go into hospital. The Minister said in reply, and I quote from Vol. 70, col. 1265, of the Seanad Official Report:
The first observation made by Senator Belton and others was that this new contribution would encourage middle-income group people to go to hospital. If they go to hospital excessively their contributions will go up again.
It is implied therein that at any time the Minister or the Department thinks that contribution needs to be raised this method can be used. This is the thin end of the wedge. Of course, the Minister is collecting £5 million a year by these contributions and he is relieving the contributors to the extent of £700,000 by abolishing the daily charge of 50p in the hospitals.
The amount the Exchequer is receiving is approximately £4.7 million, not £4.3 million. That is a lot of money for a contribution compared to the benefits these people are receiving. The danger is that this system will be used in the future as an easy way of collecting money for the Exchequer. I have great faith in the present Minister's intention that this money will be devoted to health. However, under a further amendment later on, the Minister must get the consent of the Minister for Finance; and if this is not forthcoming even the present Minister may be prevented from devoting to health matters what has been collected here.
Mr. Childers: I thought I made this. clear to the House on Second Stage. We are now repeating the debate we had on Second Stage. I made it absolutely clear to the House in a very honest way, if they refer to my speech, that I did not know of any consistent method of paying for health services in any country of Europe. I said that it was a piecemeal system that had grown up in the course of years and that all the perfect systems had been shattered completely, such as systems involving patient charges plus contributory insurance. [1723] They had been shattered by the enormous increase in the cost of hospital services. I cited in particular Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden in that connection. I pointed out that in the case of the British the insurance contributions were supposed to provide the cost of the health services and only 12½ per cent of the cost of these services is paid for out of insurance. All the rest is collected in the form of general taxes upon the community.
I made it clear that, in deciding how to pay for the cost of the health services in respect of the middle income group, it will have to be based on political hunch, human psychology and the requirements of the service. I did not know how to define the limit to which one could charge health contributions or evolve a psychological or financial formula for it. I explained to the House on that occasion that the middle income services totalled £35 million and that nobody would presume that I could collect 105p instead of 15p by way of contribution, because it would be quite impossible to know how to relieve the middle income group of the taxes and rates that they were paying to cover their share of the middle income group's services. I made it clear that we would move carefully in regard to this.
It is also provided for in the Bill that, if the amount was increased measurably over the 15p per week or £7 a year, we would have to do it on a pay-related basis. I shall have the benefit of the advice of the Minister for Social Welfare who is looking into the whole of the Social Welfare code with a view to having a pay-related scheme. It is a very complex matter. That is the best advice that I can give to the House. If we increase the contributions, the Bill will have to be amended and it can be discussed all over again.
I have noticed that Senators on both sides have no material at their command to tell me that there is anything particularly wrong with £7 a year applied to the middle income group. I am convinced that it is an amount so low that the middle income group can afford to pay for it. When we reach the higher limits there may be controversy [1724] and more care may have to be exercised in deciding on a higher limit. I have been absolutely frank with the House on this matter. When my predecessors were asked to completely re-shape the whole methods by which health services were paid for, they were in the most frightful difficulties. You cannot create a revolutionary new system for paying for health services without running into problems of all kinds and particularly the problem of the psychological impact of taxes, rates and insurance contributions on ordinary human beings. The psychological impact can be quite illogical in many cases. People may feel they will refuse to pay a particular tax and throw the Government out because of it.
This Government has had a long record of administration. Whatever mistakes we have made—I am certain we have made mistakes from time to time in our levying of taxes—we have managed to shape the taxation system on an accumulative basis. We have arrived at the present level of taxes. Now there is argument as to whether they are sufficiently progressive or whether they are regressive. The argument seems to me to be limited to the time of Budget debates and it relates generally to particular proposals in the Finance Bill or particular new impacts of taxes. I do not think I can say anything more about it.
Section 4 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
Dr. Belton: I move amendment No. 2:
To delete all words from and including "disposed" in line 48 to the end of the section and substitute "devoted to financing in part the health services for the country at large provided that any intended grant or intended supplementary grant to a Health Board shall not thereby be reduced."
I wonder would the House allow me to substitute the word "and" for the word "provided" in that amendment.
[1725]An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is it agreed to amend amendment No. 2 by the deletion of the word "provided" in the third line of the amendment and the substitution of the word "and"?
Dr. Belton: The amendment now reads:
To delete all words from and including "disposed" in line 48 to the end of the section and substitute "devoted to financing in part the health services for the country at large and that any intended grant or intended supplementary grant to a Health Board shall not thereby be reduced".
The main purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the consent of the Minister for Finance would not be necessary. The Minister for Health may reply that this consent is usual. However, when we were discussing why this method of raising money had not been introduced in the Budget, where it would normally come under the control of the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Health said that this was a health matter and that the resultant moneys would be devoted to health. The hands of the present Minister and those of his successors will be tied if we keep the words in this section "with the consent of the Minister for Finance". The Minister for Finance will not give his consent. By not giving his consent, it is tantamount to appropriating money that is being collected for health purposes and allocating it to other purposes. The intent of this amendment is to prevent the Minister for Finance from so doing. I am not suggesting it might happen. It is not good legislation, and never was good legislation, to say something in a Bill could happen. The interpretation of the section as it stands without the amendment is that the Minister for Finance could refuse to allow the Minister for Health to allocate the money which is being collected under this Bill for health purposes. It has been said that £5 million will be collected, or that there will be a net sum to the Exchequer of £4.6 million. All of that should go [1726] towards health purposes. The ultimate decision should be left with the Minister for Health and the Minister for Finance should not interfere in any way with the distribution of that money. The Minister for Health should devote that money to the country at large, so that there would be some relief for the rate-payers in respect of health charges. I also hope that this would not prevent the Exchequer from giving supplementary grants to health boards for the relief of rates. I know this may be only a pious hope.
As we all know, the cost of the health services is rising so rapidly that the imposition on the rates will be so catastrophic as to cause an outcry. I want to retain all this money, plus whatever would be intended as a health grant or supplementary grant for health purposes. That is the purpose of this amendment.
Mr. Childers: First of all, in reply to Senator Belton, the Minister for Finance cannot appropriate the income arising as a result of the passing of this Bill and the contribution system from persons in the middle income group. You cannot appropriate for other purposes, and section 2 of the Bill makes it perfectly clear when it states:
There shall be paid, in accordance with this Act and regulations thereunder, contributions (in this Act referred to as health contributions) towards the cost of the provision of services under Part IV of the Act of 1970.
Section 8 simply means that I naturally have to discuss with the Minister for Finance the use to be applied to the contribution of revenue in relation to the health services.
Secondly, Senator Belton spoke of a pious hope that I could guarantee that the whole of this health contribution revenue would be devoted to the relief of rates. We hope that the rates will be relieved to a greater extent in the future as a result of the collection of these contributions, but I could not give the House an absolute guarantee of that. I merely state it as an objective that the collection of these contributions will tend to relieve the rates. Therefore, [1727] I am afraid I cannot accept the amendment.
Dr. Belton: I know that it is the Minister's intention. I know what is in section 2. But at the same time, section 8 says: "Regulations made by him"— that is the Minister for Health—"with the consent of the Minister for Finance". What then is the purpose of having the consent of the Minister for Finance in section 8?
Mr. Childers: It is just a usual arrangement whereby the Minister for Finance authorises the method of disposal of this sum of money.
Dr. Belton: Suppose he refuses?
Mr. Childers: I do not think he would refuse.
Dr. Belton: Let us divorce ourselves from personalities. When we are speaking there is no personality involved.
Mr. Childers: Then there would presumably be some sort of crisis.
Dr. Belton: This is what I am getting at in this amendment. I know that under section 2 the intention of the Minister is that it should go to health. I am aware of that. But the words "with the consent of the Minister for Finance" are superfluous unless he can refuse. There is no point in having them unless they empower the Minister for Finance to refuse; they imply he has the power to refuse.
Mr. Childers: The Minister for Finance must have some say in the way this money is spent, because money is raised from taxes, from rates and from the Hospitals Trust Fund. It is only reasonable to suppose that in the utilisation of this contribution revenue the Minister for Finance would wish to give his consent to the method by which it was used. That is entirely reasonable and it has come into a great deal of the legislation in this country for years. When there is anything connected with finance, the Minister for Finance gives his consent. The Senator knows this very well. In the legislation passed ever [1728] since the State was founded this has been the case.
Dr. Belton: I am sorry to press this, and I do not want to delay the House. The words "with the consent of the Minister for Finance" imply—and I repeat this—that the Minister for Finance will have some control over the disposal of the moneys collected under this Bill. Otherwise, there is no necessity for that phrase.
Mr. Childers: I cannot go into it any further. The Senator knows perfectly well that the Minister for Finance has this power in respect of a great deal of legislation of all kinds. You will find it in relation to social welfare legislation too.
Dr. Belton: Is it the Minister's intention to follow the lines of section 2 and get all the money collected here devoted towards health?
Mr. Childers: Yes. I am obliged to do that when this Bill is passed and is signed by the President. I cannot do anything else. Section 2 makes it perfectly clear that these contributions must go towards the provision of services under part IV of the Act of 1970.
Dr. Belton: While I do not like the phrase "with the consent of the Minister for Finance" I will not press it, on the Minister's undertaking that all the moneys collected will go towards health.
Amendment, as amended, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 9 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
Mrs. Robinson: I move amendment No. 3:
In line 8 after "section 3 (2)" to insert "or (5)".
With the permission of the House, I should like to add a further amendment. [1729] I ought to have put in, in line 4, a similar amendment.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: If, in fact, sections 3 and 4 are agreed to, the other amendment could be inserted on Report Stage.
Mrs. Robinson: I introduced this amendment because, as I said on Second Reading this is largely an enabling Bill. What it does or what will happen under it depends on the Minister making regulations, and there is a very wide power to make regulations. I have sympathy with the Minister in this. The Bill is just a skeleton which will be filled out by regulations of the Minister from time to time.
Nevertheless, I am very concerned that Parliament should have control, to the greatest extent possible, of the way in which these regulations and this power are implemented. Therefore, I welcome the fact that in section 12 there are two sorts of regulations and there is a different provision for each. In relation to the first type of regulation —these are regulations under section 3, subsection (2) and I want to add "and subsection (5)". The Minister has first of all to obtain the consent of the Minister for Finance for the regulations and lay them before the House and they must be passed by resolution of the House, as the regulations which we considered earlier today had to be passed in draft by resolution of the House.
This is very valuable. It gives the Seanad an opportunity to discuss these regulations. It is important in areas like this that the regulations should be laid in draft. This can be contrasted with the other type of regulation which is laid before the House but which is only subject to a provision that if it is annulled within 21 days it will no longer be operative. All of us have been long enough in the House to realise that these regulations are very rarely referred to and very rarely debated. This is not a very good method of holding a watching brief on regulations; it is not a very good method of control and does not compare with the laying of the order in draft before the House.
Referring back to section 3, subsection [1730] (2) provides that the health contributions shall, in the case of persons other than those mentioned in section 46 (1) (c) of the Act of 1970, be at a rate related to the person's income and fixed by regulations made from time to time by the Minister for the purposes of the section, and also under section (b), and these are the regulations to be laid in draft. Subsection (5) of section 3 states:
The Minister may, by regulations made with the consent of the Minister for Finance, define income for the purposes of this section, either by reference to any other enactment or in such other manner as he thinks fit.
I think this is crucial to section 3, subsection (2). If the Minister can define income "either by reference to any other enactment or in such other manner as he thinks fit," then he can use this definition of income by regulation, which does not have to be laid in draft before the House and which might not come to the notice of the House, to get around the provisions of section 3, subsection (2). He could use the redefining of "income" to avoid the necessity of any regulations under section 3, subsection (2) and yet substantially change the range of people who would be provided for in section 3, subsection (2). In drawing up the provision for the regulations in section 12 it is logical there to include subsection (5). This is something to which the Minister should have no objection because it is the type of control that is intended in the Bill.
I am not saying that the Minister would abuse his powers and evade the subsection by redefining "income" at his discretion—and I think he will admit he has a very wide discretion there, "either by reference to any other enactment or in such other manner as he thinks fit". I do not think the discretion to define income could be wider. I do not think the Minister would abuse this, but we are now drawing up legislation for the future and we must be concerned with the way in which it is drafted; and it is logical and desirable that subsection (5) be included in the types of regulations which must be laid in draft and which would come to our [1731] notice and require a positive resolution of the House.
Mr. Childers: I am afraid I cannot accept either of these amendments. As Senator Robinson has said, the regulations under section 3, subsection (2), which fix the actual proportion of income to be represented in the graduated contributions that may come later, must be put to the House in draft form and approved before they have effect. It would be only right that the Dáil and the Seanad should be able to debate formally the actual proportion of income, whether it is 1 per cent, 2 per cent, 3 per cent or 4 per cent of people's income.
When it comes to section 3, subsection (5) in which the Minister has power to define the income on which a person's graduated contribution will be determined, this is purely for administrative purposes so that the Revenue Commissioners can operate the graduated scheme. In practice the definition of income would be as for income tax and there would be no departure from that. When the regulations are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and annulled within 21 days it would be very easy for anybody in the Dáil or the Seanad to notice that the Minister for Health of the day, with the connivance of the Minister for Finance, had entirely altered the principle of assessing income. I do not think it is necessary to have a special resolution in regard to this; it is a purely administrative matter. As I have said, the definition of income would be as for income tax.
Mrs. Robinson: If that is the case, why not state here that the definition of income would be as for income tax purposes? My quarrel with this is that, as it is phrased, it gives a very wide discretion. I do not think it would be a very difficult matter for the amendment to be accepted, so that any definition of income would come before the House in draft. If the unlikely happened—and I accept the Minister's contention that it would be unlikely—that the definition of income would not be the same as for income tax purposes, I still think it is [1732] open to the Minister under the terms of this Bill to depart from the usual practice and to define income as he thinks fit. If he does so, it is only coming before the House in the form of a regulation subject to annulment. I ask the Minister to accept that most of these regulations do not even come to the notice of the House, as happened recently in relation to the salaries of judges, and this is not a sufficient control. The Minister is arguing the point in such a way that I find it hard to understand why he would refuse to accept this amendment.
Mr. Childers: I am sorry. I have made the position clear. I cannot put the words "income tax" into the Bill without saying "to define income as being for income tax purposes." It is too loose a thing to do and is not practicable. Any Government would be in shocking trouble if they took advantage of a Bill such as this to distort the definition of income and what it is generally accepted to be. I do not think any Government would dare do it. If there was a departure in relation to the method of defining income, the Minister of the day would have to publish this specially so that the Dáil and the Seanad could ask for a debate within 21 days. I do not think there is any need for a special debate on the subject by way of resolution.
An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment withdrawn?
Mrs. Robinson: I am very reluctant to be put in a position where I take a Minister's assurances that very wide wording in a Bill would not be construed as I can see it could quite clearly be construed. The argument the Minister has raised is therefore an argument for clarifying the meaning and allowing the regulations to be as for the rest of section 3, subsection (2) and providing that regulations under the section would also be included in draft. I would think that they would very often go together and that the Minister in drawing up regulations under section 3, subsection (2), would also draw up regulations under subsection (5). It seems to me to be lacking in logic as well as lacking in [1733] the proper control of this House that they would not be laid in draft before the House. In view of the fact that the Minister is confident that there would not be any variation from income as defined for income tax purposes I withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill reported without amendment, received for Final Consideration and passed.
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Programs in Brazil: Faculty
This program is a short-term exchange opportunity for U.S and Brazil school administrators. Brazilian administrators visit their US partners in the fall and the U.S administrators travel to Brazil for a two week exchange in the following summer. Applicants should be U.S citizens, full time K-12 school administrators with a minimum of 3 years administrative experience and be able to host up to three administrative counterparts and a Portuguese interpreter. The programs are individualized through collaboration between the partners. This program is pending funding.
Agencies Involved: The National Council of State Secretaries of Education - CONSED/Brazil, American Councils for International Education and Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs (ECA), U.S. Department of State.
Key Dates: The program application for 2013-14 has closed. Please check back this summer for 2014-15 details.

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Yes i agree. It just needs more tuning up, I guess.
I think the Subaru WRX is fantastic maybe not in it's current form but the '09 is awesome. That may be a none issue though for the '08s.What I really wanted to comment on was mphillips12000, you really compared an Infiniti EX to a Subie WRX? I'm not sure what to say. Would you go on an air plane blog and compare an F-15 to a 747? Because that's basically what you just did. Why don't you just compare those two to an RV, I hear you can get some of those at 40 large too.
Maybe its heresy for someone who's driven Subarus for fifteen years, but the new WRX STi has me strongly considering the new Infiniti EX instead. I know they weren't intended for the same audience, but take another look: similar profile, horsepower, all-wheel drive and a bottom line that's surprisingly close at around 40 large, well-optioned. Maybe the EX doesn't have the same bare-knuckle grip, but that Infiniti cabin is a much nicer place to reside than the Rubber-made outlet Sube.
Downright ruthless, the MT editors! In all fairness to the COTY evaluators, the car comes off just as "basic" as the previous WRX. After spending some time in the car at the L.A. Auto Show, I came away realizing that the WRX is simply the mid-range version of everyman's hatchback. The real deal was the new STi right next door. Now THAT car looks the business.
I don't get it. Subaru gives us a more interior room, quiet interior, better ride, better interior, more safety options, a better steering ratio, more standard features, less weight, and a small price increase, yet subaru had done us all wrong?


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Mommy, Mama, Mom, Daddy, Dada, Dad, Papa, Pappy, et alia
Page 2 of 2 | Previous page
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
Page 2 of 2 | Previous page
Ros Williams:
Pa and ma were used by southerners in America during colonial times.
There is, to my knowledge, very considerable diversity in the words used for parents (and grandparents) within the UK. Some of that diversity is class related, some regionally based but much, I suspect is simply variation passed down through family lines. One of the things that gets negotiated in the course of a marriage is which words to use (as do, for instance, which particular bits of the respective partners' Christmas traditions to adopt). As a detailed observation though I have never heard a British person say "mom"; in the UK is it "mum" (or "mummy" if you are young or posh). BTW the correct etiquette in speaking to the Queen is to call her "Ma'am"….pronounced (roughly) "mum".


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can't find todoist with check mark to right of chrome URL bar.
Asked on Feb 05, 2012 - 22:45 UTC
Was able to drag the link to the toolbar, but not to the right of the URL bar
All responses
Replied on Feb 05, 2012 - 22:49 UTC
Well, found my answer - went to Todoist for chrome and saw the "install now." Duh, thought I had already done that by dragging the link to the toolbar.
Replied on Feb 23, 2015 - 20:04 UTC
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A Shinedown With Airbourne pre-sale code is available below to our members!! During this special pre-sale period you have got an opportunity to buy show tickets before they go on sale. If you don't buy your tickets to Shinedown With Airbourne's concert in Cherokee, NC during the presale you might not be able to acquire them before they sell out!
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Artists Artist: Mike Allred
Artist Mike Allred
Available series in store category "Comic books"
Mike Allred in the
"Michael Dalton Allred started his career as a TV reporter in Europe. He started drawing comics in 1989 with a 104-page comic one-shot, 'Dead Air'. The comics of Mike Allred are a mixture of the 1950s science-fiction pulp films and superhero comics in the tradition of Jack Kirby. His early..." [ Read more ]


text:
An American Airlines employee wipes off a scuff from a jet engine at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport.
- Filed Under
The Purdue University Airport on Wednesday will be the site of an economic development announcement from Gov. Mike Pence and David Joyce, GE Aviation president and chief executive officer.
The announcement will regard GE Aviation's first production facility in Indiana, according to the Indiana Economic Development Corp. and the governor's office.
Indianapolis Business Journal reported that a jet-engine manufacturing operation will be located in Lafayette, a $92 million investment that will create up to 200 jobs with an average wage of $36 per hour, or about $75,000 per year. ...


text:
Synod committee sees 'precarious' future for Christians in Middle East
Catholic World News - April 12, 2011
At a meeting in Rome, the committee charged with follow-up for last year's Synod on the Middle East called attention to the "precarious situation" facing Christians in that region, in light of a wave of political unrest.
The special council for the Middle East Synod observed that Christians in the region are "in many cases forced to emigrate due to violence, lack of work, restriction of religious freedom and limited democracy." Last October's Synod meeting had drawn attention to the same problems, lamenting the diminishing Christian presence in the Middle East.
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The Elizabethtown Lady Panthers went 3-0 in pool play before falling to Covington Calvary Christian, 25-18, 15-25, 15-7 in the gold division semifinals Saturday at Louisville Iroquois' First Spike Classic at the Ohio Valley Volleyball Center.
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Naya OlympiaSKU: #8283707
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Now Up on the PJ Media Homepage
April 7, 2012 - 12:48 am
- The Administration's Press, by Tom Blumer. And its propagandists. (Also read: NBC Fires Unnamed Producer Who Deceptively Edited the Zimmerman Tape.)
- The Leftist's Greatest Fear: Being Unfashionable, by Barry Rubin. The in-crowd cares about ideas now, and you'd better know the right ones.
- What's Obama Thinking? Wickard, not Marbury, by Neo-Neocon. When he talks precedence, he means the astounding 1942 case.
- Obama's Volley in the War to Get Women Voters, by Bridget Johnson. What was billed as a women's economic forum was really a campaign flier of the gender-oriented aspects of all policy in his term.
- Bunkers, Food, Armor: Disaster Prep Hits Mainstream, by Bob Owens. A necessary way of life for past generations is now booming business.
- 'When The **** Hits The Fan': The Eccentrics of Doomsday Preppers, by Chris Queen. They're a bit nutty, they're obsessed with disaster, and they just might live next door to you!


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Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National Awards.
Tuesday, 6 May 1980
Dáil Eireann Debate
Mr. Mitchell: asked the Taoiseach if he will introduce some form of national awards to grant recognition to those who give signal service to the nation.
The Taoiseach: This matter is not at present under consideration.
Mr. Mitchell: Would the Taoiseach not agree that the absence of any national awards causes problems in that we tend to give directorships of State companies and peace commissioner positions as awards which are entirely inappropriate. It might be helpful if we had some form of recognised awards and if the other positions I mentioned were given to persons who would be suitable for them.
The Taoiseach: I would be interested to know if the Fine Gael Party have changed their minds on this matter since it was last mooted. On that occasion they were opposed to any such proposal.
Mr. B. Desmond: Only after the Taoiseach made all the——
Dr. FitzGerald: The file goes back to 1939.
|Last Updated: 14/09/2010 12:50:13
|Page of 44


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In my post a couple of days ago about the 10 year anniversary of blogs, I complained that all the articles were about the impact blogs have had on politics and culture. When I mentioned this to a friend, he asked if I had seen the article in the New York Times - Blogging's a Low-Cost, High Return Marketing Tool. I had not but immediately looked it up.
The article states what we've been preaching for more than 3 years: a blog is tool that can help a company market, build their brand and raise its profile.
A recent American Express survey found that only 5 percent of businesses with fewer than 100 employees have blogs. Other experts put the number slightly higher.
There may be a plethora of blogs online, but the opportunity is still great for businesses, especially consultants, according to Aliza Sherman Risdahl, author of The Everything Blogging Book,
They are experts in their fields and are in the business of telling people what to do.
I know you're reading blogs, but are you blogging for your business yet?


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Online registration and the full agenda will be posted as plans are finalized.
Please check back or join the AIMCAL Mailing List to be notified automatically.
The AIMCAL Web Coating Conference has a long history of advancing the technologies of web processing and finishing. Organized and hosted by AIMCAL — the Association of International Metallizers, Coaters and Laminators, the conference networks industry professionals to improve efficiencies, reduce waste and introduce new technologies designed to improve competitiveness. The conference seeks to bring the state of the art to the plant floor - addressing the problems and opportunities that are part of every manufacturing process. Unlike market-based conferences, the AIMCAL Web Coating Conference focuses on technology advancements and best practices that improve quality, productivity and profitability — across many markets. The conference is open to both AIMCAL members and non-members.
The conference is organized into two concurrent tracks – Web Coating and Vacuum Web Coating. Attendees are free to go between tracks to whichever presentations hold the most interest. Common topics of interest between the two tracks are covered in joint sessions for all attendees.
In addition to the outstanding conference program, there are TableTop receptions on Sunday and Monday evenings to allow attendees the opportunity to meet with industry suppliers in an informal and relaxed reception environment. An added bonus for the 2012 event is a Wednesday afternoon of market overviews, led by AWA Research, covering markets of interest to companies with roll to roll processing assets. This session will be open to both Web Coating Conference delegates and Web Handling Conference delegates – co-located at the same facility.
The AIMCAL USA Web Coating Conference 2012 will be held in conjunction with the AIMCAL USA Web Handling Conference 2012 – allowing attendees the opportunity to attend both conferences without additional travel expenses. REGISTER FOR BOTH CONFERENCES and SAVE! — View Prices »
1:30pm - 5:00pm - Short Courses
6:00pm - 7:00pm - Keynote
7:00pm - 9:00pm - Web Coating Conference Opening Reception and TableTops
9:00am - 6:00pm - Concurrent Technical Sessions
6:00pm - 8:00pm - TableTop Reception
9:00am - 12:00pm - Technical sessions
1:00pm - 5:00pm - Networking event
7:00pm - 8:00pm - Plenary talk
9:00am - 12:00pm - Technical sessions
2:00pm - 6:00pm - Overview of roll-to-roll markets led by AWA Research
6:00pm - 8:00pm - Web Handling Conference Opening Reception (open to Web Coating attendees also)
Full Agenda will be available soon. Please check back or watch for announcements from AIMCAL.
A Corporate Sponsor Package is available to AIMCAL members only and includes:
Other sponsorship opportunities are available. Contact Erin Davis email@example.com for more information.
Meet potential customers with your company's tabletop exhibit! Two informal TableTop Receptions held during the conference allow attendees to meet with various suppliers from our industry.
The following guidelines are applicable to all TableTop exhibitors participating in the AIMCAL Web Coating Conference:
NOTE: All materials must be contained on the 6-foot table. The only exception to this is the pull-up banner displays that can be placed behind the table.
All packages must be delivered to the hotel at least 3 days prior to the conference at the following address:
Myrtle Beach Marriott Resort at Grande Dunes
8400 Costa Verde Drive
Myrtle Beach, SC 29572
Hold for: [Your Name] / AIMCAL
Phone: [Your Cell Phone Number]
(Shipping, handling, delivery and storage are available through the hotel for a fee.)
EarlyBird prices (in parentheses and highlighted) end September 20, 2012. Don't delay, register today!
Further discounts are available for three or more people from the same company attending both conferences. Please contact the AIMCAL office for more information.
PAYMENT POLICY: All fees must be paid in full prior to the conference to reserve your seat.
CANCELLATION POLICY: To receive a full refund of registration fees, we must receive your cancellation no later than September 23, 2012. Cancellations received after that date will incur a cancellation charge of 50% of the registration fee. Cancellations received after October 7, 2012 are subject to 0% refund. Alternatively, you may transfer your registration to another person until October 12, 2012 without incurring a cancellation charge.
All attire is business casual. Ties are not required or expected.
The conference is open to AIMCAL members and non-members. Corporate Sponsorships are available to AIMCAL members only (conference registration is required). The registration desk will be open at 10:00 am one day prior to each event and at 7:00am on event days. Your conference registration includes access to all conference functions including all sessions, receptions, and designated meals. Spouse fees cover all designated meals, and receptions, but does not include attendance at any conference sessions. Registration is required to participate in any aspect of the conference.
A spouse/guest registration is required for participation in any AIMCAL conference event. A guest is defined as a "significant other" and does not include other employees of the registering company. AIMCAL meetings and events are for the benefit of industry professionals who have paid necessary meeting registration fees. Spouses or guests of registered attendees, over the age of 18, are welcome to attend and participate in AIMCAL events, provided they are registered and required fees are paid. Occasionally, AIMCAL offers optional fee based excursion activities, outside of the meeting registration fees. These activities are the only AIMCAL events a non-registered spouse or guest may participate in, if accompanied by a registered attendee.
AIMCAL recognizes that for many reasons attendees bring families, including children, to the location of an AIMCAL meeting. Due to the nature of the meetings, children are not welcomed to attend AIMCAL meetings and meal functions. AIMCAL will make every effort to provide contact information for those responsible for children's activities at the site of the AIMCAL function. Children's programs, if available, will be the responsibility of the attendee.
Hotel reservations are to be made directly with the hotel. See the Hotel/Transport tab for details and links to hotel websites.
Extended abstracts will be published prior to the conference on the Agenda page for this conference. Papers and presentations will be distributed at registration.
Networking events will be announced as plans are finalized. Please check back or watch for announcements from AIMCAL.
The Marriott Grande Dunes provides the perfect balance of resort accommodations and business-friendly amenities. It is renowned for its excellent conference and event facilities.
Make reservations on the Marriott website
Individual reservations can be called in to 800-228-92910 (reference "AIMCAL 2012 Conference").
Run of House: $147
Ocean Front: $199
September 19, 2012
Check in: 4:00pm
Check out: 11:00am
Myrtle Beach Marriott Resort at Grande Dunes
8400 Costa Verde Drive
Myrtle Beach, SC 29572
Tel.: 843-449-8880
Fax: 843-692-3700
Complimentary self-parking is available. Valet parking is currently $18 per day.
Myrtle Beach International Airport (12 miles from hotel)
Code: MYR
Estimated taxi fare from airport - $30 one way.
Rental Car and Taxi Information from the Myrtle Beach International Airport:
Wilmington International Airport (70 miles from hotel)
Code: ILM
Estimate taxi fare from airport - $120 one way.
Rental Car and Taxi Information from the Wilmington, NC Airport:
The world's web process community.
Join. Participate. Succeed.
USA Office
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Join me for a few hours of fun. You'll spend lots of time whipping up your own creations so, for all classes, come dressed to get messy (or bring an apron). You'll leave with an armful of products, handcrafted by you, and a new handmade skin care addiction!
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Looking for a fun activity for your group?
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- 800.878.7323
List price:
Used Trade Paper
Ships in 1 to 3 days
More copies of this ISBN
This title in other editions
If You Traveled West in a Covered Wagonby Ellen Levine
Synopses & Reviews
Publisher Comments:
If you traveled west in a covered wagon
--Would you ride in the wagon for the whole trip?
--How would you cross rivers when there were no bridges?
--Without road signs, how would you know where you were?
This book tells you what it was like to be a pioneer and travel west to Oregon in the 1840s.
A provocative question-and-answer format teaches young readers a multitude of facts about a small slice of American history--life on the Oregon Trail in the 1840s. Illustrations.
About the Author
How did people escape on the Underground Railroad? What was it like to land on Ellis Island?How did it feel to travel the Oregon Trail in a covered wagon? Ellen Levine has revealed worldsof fascinating adventure with her nonfiction books for young readers.
Although Ellen Levine enjoys reading and writing fiction, most of her books for young readershave been nonfiction. Writing nonfiction lets me in behind the scenes of the story. I enjoylearning new things and meeting new people, even if they lived 200 years ago."
Real heroes," Levine says, aren't necessarily on TV or in the news. They can be ordinarypeople who are willing to take risks for causes they believe in. Nonfiction offers a way tointroduce young readers to real people who have shown tremendous courage, even when facedwith great danger. All of us have the potential. And one doesn't have to be a grown-up," sheadds.
When she's not writing, Levine likes to share the excitement of research and the importance ofaccuracy with young readers. Many young people think research is dull; you go to anencyclopedia, copy information, give it a title, and call it a report." Using her books asexamples, Ellen explains how to get other, more interesting information. I may not mention theexact words, but I talk to young people about primary and secondary sources. If I'm speakingwith third graders, I ask them, 'Where would I go if I wanted to find out what it's like to be athird grader?' Most will say, 'Read a book.' But when they say, 'Ask a third grader,' I knowthey've understood what I mean by a primary source of inspiration."
For If You Were an Animal Doctor, for example, Ellen witnessed an emergency operation on acow. While doing research in Wyoming for Ready, Aim, Fire!, her biography of Annie Oakley,she got to hold the gun Ms. Oakley is believed to have shot in the presence of the Queen ofEngland. It gave me such a strong feeling about this person," she says. That's part of research,too."
Ellen Levine is the author of many acclaimed books, both fiction and nonfiction. Among them:If You Traveled West in a Covered Wagon, If Your Name Was Changed at Ellis Island, I Hate English!, If You Lived at the Time of Martin Luther King, and Secret Missions. Her recent book, Freedom's Children: Young Civil Rights Activists Tell Their Own Stories, was named one of the Ten Best Children's Books of the Year by The New York Times, and Best Book for Young Adults by the American Library Association.
Ellen divides her time between New York City and Salem, New York.
What Our Readers Are Saying
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text:
HOME NFL New England Patriots Gear New England Patriots Kids New England Patriots Kids Preschool & Toddler (38 items) Product ID: 1386080
Main Content
This item ships within one business day.
$4.99 flat rate shipping. See other shipping options.
- Size 4T has 15" inseam
- 55% Cotton/45% Polyester top
- 70% Cotton/27% Polyester/3% Spandex leggings
- Contrast stitching
- Crew top with rib-knit collar, cuffs & waist
- Elastic waistband on pants
- Imported
- No pockets
- Officially licensed
- Quality embroidery
- Ruching detail on attached skirt
- Soft fleece-lined top
Reviewed by 1 customer
- Authentic Look
- Quality Construction
- Shows Off Team Pride
- Stylish
Best Uses
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Comments about New England Patriots Toddler Girls 2-Piece Crew T-Shirt & Leggings Set - Red/Navy Blue/Ash:
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- Sizing:
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Special event items are produced by manufacturers only after the outcome of a game or event. These are advanced sale items and will ship immediately after they are received in our warehouse.
Manufacturer direct items are shipped directly from the manufacturer. These items are not available for international or expedited shipping.
Customized items can be personalized with options such as your name, your favorite number, and/or designs. Some options may be limited by league rules.


text:
Sunday 26th January 2014
Leading UK rapper Cashtastic just unleashed the video for "Red Handed", one of the tracks from his highly anticipated "Alarm Clock" EP.
The track showcases his incomparable lyrical skills and talent for creating an irresistible hook.
The video was directed by Cashtastic along with Quason Matthews and Team Winning. Check it out:
The video has got us even more excited about Cashtastic's forthcoming EP "Alarm Clock". Due for release February 9th, you can pre-order your copy on iTunes now.
Thursday 25th July 2013
Fuse ODG filmed the video for his new single "Azonto" yesterday!
We headed down to Dalston in East London to check out the action and grab some behind-the-scenes shots….
"Azonto" is set for release in the UK on September 29th.
Wednesday 26th June 2013
"It's You" the brand new video from A-track and Armand Van Helden's Duck Sauce just landed.
The two hook up in a barbershop for the film which was directed by Philip Andelman. Watch him bring the hair to life.
Monday 18th February 2013
It was a BIG weekend for "Heartlight"! The debut single from TS7 – which features the fabulously talented Liverpudlian singer Taylor Fowlis – was released yesterday on iTunes.
On Saturday "Heartlight" beat off competition from Nicky Romero's latest offering "Same Man" to be named Trending Track on Danny Howard's Dance Anthems show on BBC Radio 1. You can listen back here.
The win sent the track soaring to number 17 on the iTunes UK dance albums chart.
On Sunday the video for "Heartlight" also went live on You Tube via Sub Soul. If you didn't see it already take a look here. And if you like it start requesting it on your favourite music channels now!
We also shot a behind the scenes film with Taylor and TS7 which went live this morning. Check it out here.
With support for the single continuing to grow, you're going to be a hearing a lot more of "Heartlight"! It's on daytime rotation at BBC 1Xtra, Rinse FM and Unity FM and is receiving strong specialist support at Kiss, Capital and BBC Radio 1.
Look out for performances from TS7 and Taylor on DJ Target's show on 1Xtra on Sunday 24th.
Sunday 13th January 2013
Sway spent the weekend shooting the video for his upcoming single "Still Sway & Kane". As always a stellar crew came to lend support with Kano, Chip, Wretch 32, JME and Smiler appearing alongside the legend that is Sway.
You can check out Sway live next month when he tours with Example – starting Feb 11th with a gig at Bournemouth BIC and rejoining the tour on Feb 23rd at Earls Court, London (followed by Cardiff Motorpoint Arena on the 25th, Brighton Centre on the 26th, Birmingham LG Arena on the 28th and Manchester Arena on 1st March). Details.
Friday 3rd September 2010
Thursday 19th August 2010
Check out the video for the super second release from Edward Maya 'This Is My Life' following on from his incredible smash hit 'Stereo Love'. We will let you know when it will be available for download soon – in the meantime we hope you enjoy the video!
Monday 26th July 2010
Monday 26th July 2010


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LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (KTHV) - We have a lot of great game camera pictures as well as pictures of viewers' deer camps!
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I just placed my order with Ferndale Pizza. Glad its not UL or SUL.
>>> I was wondering when you would chime in! Thanks for that, and for your previous efforts that I've already lauded.I wasn't going to... but the lure of pizza sucked me in. And, sure thing. And, thank you.>>> Why 12 over 10lbs I've been wondering about for some timeInteresting one huh. That really should not be a/the stumbling block here though Cesar.The "Why" is because I felt that there was a level of learning that warranted the two pound difference. Remember, the entire basis of my personal classifications are: "experience" - there just seems to be specific zones of weight where you are sort of forced into learning new skill sets, and as I went through the process I felt I had to learn less from going from the 18-15 range and more going from the 15-10 range. There was a whole other approach in the process of losing those 2+ pounds. Experience, Education. Experience, Education. Experience, Education.>>> And SXUL was a joke?Yes.>>> How is it that you were inspired to make this SXUL/XSUL "joke" based on Gilmore's article nearly a year after your article was published?Uhh, its called editing an article post publication. Gilmore just nailed it so spot on, I just had to add it to my own list.>>> Wikipediagiggle... the SUL/XUL classifications were added by me.>>> I am sorry to hear you feel my poll is skewedI do not feel it is skewed... it IS skewed.You should have made it be ALL metric (or imperial) and just stick to that. Because as it is, you just have people voting for the "metric" option and not even seriously considering the other options, just on that issue alone. That is called a skewed polling.>>> I still don't see how trying to informally try and figure out a consensus would cause any harm or take away from UL backpackingBecause it is just not going to happen. Trust me ;)Think of this... lets say you got the 200+ people that are triple crowners into the same room and asked them all to share what they think the definitions would be. My guess is that most of them would just laugh at you and tell you they don't care and you missed the entire point of backpacking. But, even if you did press them to give you answers, you really think you could get a consensus by them... those with more miles on their feet than most the rest of us reading this single post put together. Nah, just not gonna happen Cesar....and with all that said... I really am going to stop commenting in this thread. I *respect* the attempt to do what you are trying to do, and it has been attempted every couple of years (including by myself) and it has just never happened and probably will not. It goes beyond just what a few hundred or thousand people at one or two websites think. The entire industry - from manufacturers, to retail companies, to the very predominate hikers, and just the average every day hiker - they would all need to come together and be a part of such things. It is not like the old days when just a few small people could put forth an article or publication in a magazine, or write a small book, and therein the standards were set.In closing, I will just quote myself:
I define weight categories the way I do based upon how much skill a person should have, and how much a person has hopefully learned in order to reach each of the levels.
"giggle... the SUL/XUL classifications were added by me."LOL.
Entering this conversation is like walking through a cow pasture blindfolded, hoping not to get anything on your shoes. I have decided to step into this conversation hoping not to get too much stuff on my shoes.Cesar, as many very knowledgeable, respected people have already said "American's are dumb", sorry, that was for another thread, ok here it is; "Based on each trip, I select the gear I need.." Maybe you are trying too hard to jam the numbers into too broad of categories. Nick posted a viable agreement "This system has some inherent problems. For example, if Hiker A has a base weight of 19.999 lbs, and Hiker B has a base weight of 10.0001 lbs, they are both Lightweight backpackers, even though Hiker A's base weight is almost double that of Hiker B. Same would go for UL weights of 9.999 lbs versus 5.001 lbs." To solve this and other issues others have pointed out, I think I have come up with a viable alternative to your basic categories:You just start off with whatever title you want be it LW, UL, SUL, XSUL (or SXUL), etc.I'll use UL, it is basic and to the point. From there you just add a number 1 thru 30 depending on your base out weight and just round up. I stop at 30 just because. You could end up with something like UL13, if you are carrying 13 lbs. It gives a better picture of what Cesar has been trying to isolate. And you end up with something a little more meaningful than LW, UL, SUL, or XSUL.Now, to really improve on Cesar's idea…I'd use XUWL (pronounced Zool) because it sounded cool in the movie Ghostbusters and the guy/gal was really important. Plus starting with an X makes it even cooler because it denotes I'm doing something extreme or something regular people aren't.From there you could add a number for the weight you are carrying at the moment, i.e. XUWL8.7 (if you are carrying 8.7 lbs). To that you add your present pre-trip body weight, minus your BMI score. For example 175 lbs guy with a BMI of 20 would use 155-8.7=146.3. Next divide your elevation gain (1500 for example) by the 146.3 and you get 10.25. Now XUWL10.25 really means something (to someone).Some variation of this system could be used to get a more accurate picture of what you and others are carrying.Cesar, thanks for the opportunity to think about this topic. Sorry I haven't weighed in on you blog- I keep clicking my mouse between the circles but your blog won't register my vote that way.
Edited by bestbuilder on 01/08/2014 20:16:43 MST.
Cesar has been trying really hard to make a serious attempt at something he thinks should be considered. Let's give him credit and applaud the effort. The guy hikes a lot and posts some pretty cool trip reports on his blog, not to mention it sounds like his local environment is void of hikers of the lighter side of backpacking.
Nobody has mentioned the very first sentence of chapter 15 of Ryan's book, Lightweight Backpacking and Camping, its titled, Super ultralight- Breaking the Five-Pound Barrier:Page 299 "The ability to carry a pack that is not just light (12-20 lbs base weight) or ultralight (6-11 lbs), but ridiculously light (< 5 lbs) and still maintain a level of comfort and safety suitable for hiking in the high mountain ranges of the lower 48 states requires a bit of inovation, some compromise in durability, and most importantly, an advanced set of backcountry skills that allow you to remain warm and dry in inclement weather with a kit of gear that offers little margin for safety."That definition (though RJ states in the next paragraph he's not attempting to define a new standard) seems to balance both objective and subjective measures in a concise definition.Seeing as that BPL article from 2003 was reprinted in the 2005 book by the guy who created this site we all surf a full decade later, maybe that's the answer regardless of forum threads and individual blog posts. Any votes?
Edited by kbuggie on 01/08/2014 21:27:39 MST.
Let's take this discussion to a hypothetical conclusion. Everyone on BPL votes and agrees that 20-10 lbs is lightweight, 10-5 lbs is UL, and <5 lb is SUL (can be any number just plugged these in for discussion purposes). What benefit have we gained? For sports like boxing and wrestling, I completely understand why they have weight classes but I fail to see the benefit here. I'm truly not trying to sharp shoot the OP here but from reading the OP and blog, I get the impression that you're trying to set an industry standard and not much else. I'd love to hear more about what we'll gain especially if you could give specific examples. Again, not attacking... just want to understand where you're coming from.
"Take the total FSO weight and divided it by the days on the trail before re-supply. So a 40 lb FSO weight on a 10 day trip would = 4 points. We can call this the FSO Factor."I think I will have more fun keeping my FSO (before I leave for an outing) under 3.
Cesar has good intentions. Let's stop criticizing and think the subject through.First step is to go back are re-read my dissertation on the case for the English System of Weights and Measures -- I don't think everyone did this the first time.THIS WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT AND PROFOUND POST IN THE ENTIRE THREAD. It even surpasses my "Pencil for the JMT" thread, which I thought was the most provocative and worthwhile thread ever on BPL.Okay, I agree the English Measurement post was absurd. But so is a classification system and the debates about them. However, the dialogue is good.Here is a fact... the lighter your gear, the easier it is to walk. But lightening gear eventually reaches a point of diminishing returns, both financially and safety-wise; if you approach Skurka's Stupid Light.So the real questions are:Why do you backpack? What do you get out of it? What is your relationship to the wilderness? What do you learn about the natural world? What do you learn about yourself when in the wild?In other words, Why Walk?These are not questions to be answered here, but to answered and kept to yourself.Backpacking is not about gear, it is about what each of us gets out of our own time in the wilderness. Gear, gear, gear... it is getting crazy. I wonder if carpenters sit around after work and discuss hammers and nails. I know mechanics don't sit around after work and talk about their tool chests.Now, I don't hike often with others, which means I need to be very careful with my gear selection... there is little room for mistakes. But there are two people I enjoy hiking with, and both are BPL members -- Chad Eagle and Craig Wisner. One of the reasons I like to hike with them is that we almost never discuss gear, we don't compare kits, and we don't compete for lowest weight. We don't even know how much each other's kit weighs. We do enjoy going to insane places where we are assured there won't be any other hikers -- it doesn't get any better than that.At the end of the day, backpacking is just walking in the wilderness. It isn't rocket science. You don't need a college degree or even a high school diploma to be a backpacker. Almost anyone can do it, even old farts like me. There is nothing elite about being a backpacker, so don't try to become an elite XXSULXX backpacker -- there is no such thing. Don't complicate it and don't take yourself too seriously -- just be safe, dry, and warm.P.S. Leave the electronic crap at home, it separates you from the wilderness :)P.P.S. Craig needs to post his recipe for bean burritos with pictures.P.P.P.S. Roger Caffin, did I postscript correctly?
> THIS WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT AND PROFOUND POST IN THE ENTIRE THREAD. Oh, definitely. A classic.> P.P.P.S. Roger Caffin, did I postscript correctly?Why do I suspect the sole reason for this entire post was this last line? :-)(yes)Cheers
So the real questions are:Why do you backpack?What do you get out of it?What is your relationship to the wilderness?What do you learn about the natural world?What do you learn about yourself when in the wild?Huge +1
"Why do I suspect the sole reason for this entire post was this last line?"Male fixation on pp's ?
"So the real questions are:Why do you backpack?What do you get out of it?What is your relationship to the wilderness?What do you learn about the natural world?What do you learn about yourself when in the wild?"But Nick, those are difficult, nuanced questions. Can't we just come up with a hard and fast rule that lets me know if I am enjoying my hike properly or if I need to spend more time with my spreadsheets and credit card?
My $.25 (inflation). The categories could be somewhat useful as each category generally uses a different set of equipment. One example, in the heaviest category a tent is used, next we move to a large tarp and bivy, next we loose the bivy, next just a poncho tarp for the just in case but typically don't use it. If we have categories already defined, then a standard get set (not just the shelters) will typically be used. Obviously not always, but will be somewhat typical. Additionally, each category requires an increasing set of skills. Each category has a typical skill set that is required to keep the activity safe and enjoyable.How useful this is is certainly up for debate. But, I think it has some merit.
"Backpacking is not about gear, it is about what each of us gets out of our own time in the wilderness."Here here! Couldn't agree with this more :)
We have an almost insatiable need to quantify things. So much so that if we're not careful it'll distract us from the real reason we're attempting to quantify in first place.The only real purpose for the pursuit of Ultralight Hiking to minimize, if not eliminate, the NEGATIVE role that gear plays in our adventure. Too much gear drags us down, make us tired and reduces our enjoyment.By the same token, too little gear can also have a NEGATIVE impact on our hike. It's the reason that Monty Tam no longer hikes with a sub 5 pound pack. The lack of gear had so great an impact on his enjoyment, that it was well worth taking a few extra pounds.We do establish mile stones to help us achieve certain goals. They provide us a point of reference to focus our thinking. While we do use them in common discussions, it should be noted that they are also highly personal. The amount of gear carried that achieves the least negative impact, will vary wildly among individuals depending upon their conditioning and the nature of the activity undertaken.So a 10 pound UL base limit maybe spot on for some individuals in some environments. It's also equally true that it can be somewhat higher or lower for others.In the early days of UL, attempts to conquer the 10 pound barrier required delving deep into the Black Arts. Learning all about tarps, appropriate campsites, etc. With advances in materials and designs, this is no longer true. We're rapidly reaching the stage of Recreational Ultralight. This is ultralight for people who simply want to have more fun in their back-country trips and have no desire for acquiring a PHD in backpacking. It is quite easy these days to develop a 12 pound kit that does everything your traditional backpacking 20 kit did just a few years ago. So for the vast majority of backpackers, a 12 pound UL kit would be a great target. For the die hard UL'er, an 8 or 9 pound kit would cover 90 percent of their needs.In any case we still have to remember that it's not the weight but the result that we are ultimately after. Ron
Reading the comments by Nick and Ron I am reminded of a simple Verse about wisdom.Proverbs 3:13 says:Happy is the man that findeth wisdom,and the man that getteth understanding.Seems like these two guys, and I am sure others have Wisdom and understanding. its not really all about the weight.Just my $.02if your offended by the verse.....just ignore it.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."Mr Micawber, David Copperfield.Pack weight 5 lb 0.5 oz: result misery. Pack weight 4 lb 15.5 oz: result happiness.Cheers
Now there's a term I like: I immediately understand what it means. Note that Ron defines it without any reference to weights at all. It's all about taking only the gear YOU need/want to enjoy your personal hike wherever that may be.My base weight always exceeds any common definiton of UL. Is that, as some previous posts have suggested, because I lack the skills to go sub 10lbs?I know from experience how quickly the weather can turn in the places that I hike and how exposed you can be when well above the tree line. I would consider my preparations to have failed if I was forced to bail from a trip due to inappropriate gear. I always enjoy my hikes. Nuff said.
My interest in numbers has faded with time.I suspect it's like anything, at least for me; you get into a new hobby and want to eat everything up, learn all you can.But with time and experience, you start learning and appreciating what's important.I used to obsessively weight my gear. No more. I know what I need to know now, what's important to me and what's not.I can look at my gear and pack and know if it's an appropriate gearlist and general weight (or not) for whatever my goals happen to be, no spreadsheet or scales needed.Backpacking is also something that not everyone seems to get to do as much as they'd like. It seems the spreadsheets and obsession with quantifying everything can become a surrogate for being out and doing; a way to stay connected to something you love when you can't actually be doing it. I get it- I don't say this in some judgmental way. This too has grown pretty old for me.This entire site was founded on the premise of shedding packweight and going with less. Does anyone remember the stupid "He who dies with the lightest pack wins" BPL bumper sticker? That says it all about the origins of this community/site. "The one who dies after having a lifetime of cool experiences wins" is the bumper sticker I would rather see.It only makes sense that a community like this would get wrapped up in weight definitions, a race to the lightest pack, and the ensuing bragging rights. Countless trip reports and threads that only talk about the gear carried and what it weighed as opposed to the experience. Thousands of pages of "critique my gearlist" threads contrasted with a disproportionately low amount of trip reports and discussion. Something obviously went wrong somewhere.I think a lot of people around here have been waking up, hence the lack of desire for some consensus on titles and definitions by which we can compare everyone and what they carry.
Edited by xnomanx on 01/09/2014 15:31:38 MST.
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Everyone in baseball has expected the Los Angeles Dodgers' offseason tsunami. But as it crashed to shore this week with the signings of free agents Zack Greinke and middling Korean left-hander Ryu Hyun-jin for a combined cost of $208.7 million, every National League contender, including the Washington Nationals, has to figure out how to react and adapt.
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Average household natural gas bill to drop 14-22 percent
Rolling from a mild winter into spring, the Pittsburgh region's three biggest natural gas utilities continued to slash the pass-through prices they charge customers for the heating fuel.
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The bill is based on use of 72 therms, or British thermal units of gas. Columbia in February switched from measuring gas by cubic feet, as other local utilities do, to Btus, the standard used in the gas market. The system enables Columbia to charge based on the energy content of gas, instead of the volume, the company said.
Equitable Gas customers will pay $84.97, down 14 percent from the $99.29 bill a year ago when market prices for the fuel were higher, said Scott Waitlevertch, spokesman for the North Shore-based utility, part of EQT Corp. Bill amounts are calculated for a customer using 90 thousand cubic feet, or mcf, a year.
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North Shore-based Peoples Natural Gas Co. is dropping its bill to $70, down about 5.4 percent from $74 a year ago, based on usage of 92 mcf a year, said Joe Gregorini, vice president of rates and regulatory affairs. Peoples has 325,000 residential customers.
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