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Recent news of radionuclide leakage from a vault at the Savannah River Site brings up several interesting points.
Here's the general information: the Department of Energy's Savannah River Site, also known as SRS, identified the leak back in February. Department officials stated the problem stems from cracks in the roof of Vault 4.
On July 31, SRS submitted a letter to the S.C. Department of Health and Environmental Control outlining the issue and the Site's repair efforts. Workers are repairing the cracks by pouring a new concrete cap on the degraded sections of the vault and applying a sealant to those leaking sections. In addition, the U.S. Department of Energy has stated that it has increased monitoring of the vault roof and will aggressively make necessary repairs to lessen potential leakage in the future. The department is also looking to modernize vault designs to increase safety levels.
With so many budget issues and cutbacks surrounding the Site, it is refreshing to see the Department of Energy taking progressive steps in solving this key issue. SRS's liquid waste contractor, Savannah River Remediation, further stated that Vault 4, as well as the other vaults, have been and continue to be inspected on a routine basis during all operations.
The contractor also stated that the Department of Health and Environmental Control is inspecting the vault monthly to further ensure safety.
The Department of Energy and SRS have received nods from several parties on efficiency, including Friends of the Earth member Tom Clements, who stated "SRS acted responsibly in identifying the degradation in the vault and in addressing the problems."
Overall, SRS should be acknowledged for the identification and treatment of the radionuclide leak. With that said, one of the Site's continuing impediments from a public standpoint, is its lack of transparency. While security is warranted in many cases, SRS would likely stand to gain more community support if issues such as these were brought to light sooner rather than later.
The information was technically accessible to some degree; however, a larger wealth of knowledge was provided after the filing of a Freedom of Information Act request last month. The request, filed by Clements, was approved, and prompted SRS to release information on the leak. The recent leak is reminiscent of SRS's failed security test earlier this year. The test was conducted in January and public knowledge was also limited until a watchdog agency uncovered the findings in July.
While neither issue appears to be overly threatening, SRS would be taking even more progressive steps if the public received word of these incidents straight from the source, rather than keeping quiet until an outside source uncovers the info.
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With Thanksgiving just around the corner, all week I will be sharing tons of creative, simple and festive treat tutorials with you... But my candy bar name plates are a post I just couldn't wait to share, because I will be "bringing" these to the Food Network's Virtual Thanksgiving Dinner! Last week, Food Network invited food bloggers from around the country to participate in their virtual Communal Table for Thanksgiving dinner, and I was lucky enough to have a seat at their table. The virtual Thanksgiving will basically be a list of recipes for appetizers, sides, salads, breads, mains, desserts and cocktails, by well-known and respected food experts and bloggers... and my candy bar name plates will be there! Many of you saw my WIN on Food Network's Cupcake Wars series premiere, so to be featured on Food Network again is really exciting. I first introduced my original idea of DIY personalized candy bar engravings when I shared my Edible Chalkboard Cookies tutorial. I couldn't believe no one else has ever done this before... or at least blogged about it! It is so incredibly simple and you can use the idea for just about any holiday or party (which I plan to do throughout the year, so stay tuned!) These are a really fun project for kids to create their own customized drawing or inscription.
I can't wait to make a whole bunch of these in all different chocolate types, colored sugars, and sprinkle types, for every holiday gathering! In the mean time, here's my original "chocolate bar engraving" technique, used to make cute Thanksgiving name plates! Hope you like them.
Thanksgiving Chocolate Bar Name Plates
You will need
- 1 large (4.4oz) milk chocolate Hershey's candy bar
- Toothpick
- Powdered (confectioners') sugar
- Orange gel food coloring/icing color
- Festive sprinkles
- Chocolate chips, melted
- Marshmallows, for standing name plate (optional)
Break you chocolate bar along the 3 vertical lines, creating 4 smaller bars (with 4 squares each). I got mine from the candy aisle of the grocery store. They have them in white and dark chocolate too!
For the inscription color you can use plain powdered sugar for a white engraving (like in my Edible Chalkboards), or tint the powdered sugar, like I did, for a festive touch with some gel food coloring/icing color. Try red, orange, yellow, or any Autumn color, to compliment the brown chocolate.
To tint powdered sugar, simply add a tiny bit of food coloring to a small bowl of powdered sugar and mix together, adding more coloring, until you have reached your desired shade. I used my fingers to coat the powdered sugar in the coloring (you might want to wear a glove so the food coloring doesn't stain your fingers). Once you have reached your desired color, sift the powdered sugar to remove any clumps, so it is back to its normal powdery consistency.
Applying medium pressure, use a toothpick to engrave a message/name/drawing. Brush away any excess chocolate shavings.
Sprinkle your engraved chocolate bars with your tinted (or plain) powdered sugar. Using your finger, gently spread the powdered sugar around, so it falls into the lines you have engraved with your toothpick. Brush away any excess powdered sugar.
Using a damp paper towel, wipe the surface of your chocolate bar to remove all excess powdered sugar, leaving your inscription to stand out. Make sure your paper towel is not too wet, so it only removes the powdered sugar on top of the chocolate and does not erase the powdered sugar that has filled the crevasse of your inscription.
Get creative and have fun! Try different fonts, messages, or even engrave a cute drawing.
Melt chocolate chips according to package, and use it as a "glue" to attach festive sprinkles around the border of your name plates.
You can use the name plates as they are, without a stand, and lay them on each dinner plate around your Thanksgiving table, or package them in clear plastic bags tied with ribbon for gift giving.
If you want your name plates to stand up, you will need half of a marshmallow (cut width wise) for the back of each name plate.
Using your melted chocolate, attach the cut side of the marshmallow to the bottom-center of your name plate.
I hope these are a hit at your Thanksgiving dinner this year! Can't wait to give them to my mom "Linda" and my brother "Brian"... in case you were wondering who these were made for :)
Click to check out our entire Thanksgiving roundup for more fun ideas and recipes! Pin It

subset: commoncrawl


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- BlackBerry Desktop Software 7.1
- BlackBerry smartphones
It is advised to backup the data on the BlackBerry smartphone prior to performing this procedure to avoid all device data from being permanently lost. For instructions on backing up data using BlackBerry Desktop Software, please see KB12487.
To perform a clean installation of the BlackBerry Device Software:
- Click the Device menu and select Update...
- A dialog box appears and indicates that there are no BlackBerry Device Software updates available, click View other versions in the lower left corner
- The check box for the currently installed version is selected in the Available Versions list. Click the Install button
- Clear the check box next to Back up device data
- Click the Install update button
For information on issues with BlackBerry Desktop Software detecting the BlackBerry, please see article KB10144.
For information on performing a web-based BlackBerry Device Software update, please see article KB16068.
By downloading, accessing or otherwise using the Knowledge Base documents you agree:
(a) that the terms of use for the documents found at www.blackberry.com/legal/knowledgebase apply to your use or reference to these documents; and
(b) not to copy, distribute, disclose or reproduce, in full or in part any of the documents without the express written consent of RIM.
Visit the BlackBerry Technical Solution Center at www.blackberry.com/btsc.


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Quick Links
Shop All Jewelry
RG10511 In Stock
Displaying the age-old Masonic symbol in daring black onyx, this Genuine Black Hills Gold on Sterling Silver Men's Onyx Masonic Ring is a sight to behold. This large Masons ring is impressively manly both in size and style. Handcrafted grape leaves adorn either side of the stone, rendered in green and rose gold, and the Masonic symbol is proudly displayed on top. This piece makes a great gift, either for yourself or someone else! Each Black Hills Gold item is manufactured right here in the USA, and is made of gold mined in the Black Hills of South Dakota, first discovered in the 1900's during the great gold rush.
Eve's Addiction.com wants you to be a happy customer. We want you to be completely satisfied with the sterling silver jewelry that you receive from us, as we only sell high quality silver and cubic zirconia cz jewelry. We do understand that you may not like your purchase for some reason.
You may return or exchange your jewelry within 60 days of purchase if you are not satisfied with it. The jewelry must be returned in its original condition for a refund or exchange. Engraved, personalized, photo, monogram, name and initial, chocolate and clearance items are not returnable or exchangeable.


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Hunts & Trips Auction Info
Listing Began: Mar 27-21:29
Number of Times Viewed: 1799
Basic Information:
Click Here to View Large Map or Order
Colorado Unit 80 hunting map topo with printed boundaries
HuntersDomain has Colorado unit 80 hunt area maps that are 1:100,000-scale maps using Bureau of Land Management land status base maps.
Our UNIT 80 maps include:
- Colorado public land ownership boundaries
- Topographical contour lines
- 1:100,000 scale for easy viewing
- Roads printed
- Key terrain features to help you plan your hunt or trip
- Hunt area or game management unit 80 (GMU 80) boundary is overlaid on the BLM base map
- Easy planning for you upcoming big game hunt by defining roads and routes into the preferred area
Custom maps for unit 80 are also available (See it all on one map):
- Color aerial photo maps: high resolution (you define borders/boundaries)
- TOPO maps only where you easily define borders or edges of maps with our online program
- Hybrid maps: a unique and detailed aerial photo combined withe USGS topographical maps (user defined boundaries)
Order your unit 80 Colorado topo map today!
The actual boundary description/definitions printed below from Colorado Division of Wildlife 800 hunting regulations brochure could have errors or been amended by the state so always check in their most current printed regulations or the Colorado Division of Wildlife website to verify these boundaries before hunting as these are for reference only.
Colorado Big Game Unit 80 - (Alamosa, Conejos, Mineral, Rio Grande) bounded on North by US South Highway 160; on East by Rio Grande; on South by La Jara Creek, Alamosa River, United States Forest Service Roads 250 and 380 and Elwood Pass; on West by Continental Divide.
Click Here to Order Unit 80 Topo Map
Public Questions / Answers
No questions have been posted about this listing.


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Wednesday, September 18, 2013
Sally Lou Ramsey Worsham Faulk, 82, widow of J. R. Faulk, died Tuesday, September 17, 2013 at Palmetto Health Richland in Columbia, SC.
Funeral services will be held Friday morning, September 20, 2013 at First Baptist Church of Goose Creek at 11 o'clock. A visitation will be held at Parks Funeral Home Thursday evening from 6 – 8 o'clock or at the church one hour prior to the service. Entombment will be in Summerville Cemetery Mausoleum. Flowers accepted or memorials may be made to American Bible Society, 1865 Broadway, New York, NY 10023-7505.
Mrs. Faulk was born May 3, 1931 in Bostic, NC, a daughter of Sidney Ramsey and Fannie Campbell Ramsey. She was a kindergarten teacher at First Baptist Church of Goose Creek and an outpatient clerk at MUSC.
Survivors include William Worsham and wife Pat of Mishawaka, IN; Norma Hall and husband Wayne of Lexington, SC; Wanda Wood and husband Donald of Twin Lakes, WI; Kathy Eadie and husband Bruce of Goose Creek, SC and Jeff Worsham and wife Brenna of Moncks Corner; brother, Carmen Ramsey of Sunshine, NC; 19 grandchildren; and 21 great-grandchildren. She was predeceased by her husband, J. R. Faulk and a daughter, Patricia Breuer
Arrangements by Parks Funeral Home, 130 West 1st North Street, Summerville, SC 29483. www.parksfuneralhome.com
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text: Hendricks told everyone to look at GSPs face after the fight and asked who really won. Johny is a hypocrite if he feels he is deserving of the title that based on that statement alone. Hendricks knew he was in a fight and took the safe way out at the end. He dry humped Condit to victory and just held Lawler down in the final minute for the title. Too much emphasis is based on takedowns even when they do not do anything after. The takedown is perhaps the most protected move in all of mma as too many rules favor it (ex. illegal head kicks, knees to downed opponent). Leben is absolutely right in that it isn't about "fighters" anymore, it is about athletes and apparently people who know how to work the point system. The UFC lost a genuine fan tonight.


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Culbreath: lending a hand to a rebuild projectWritten by Matt 'Shaggy' Culbreath | | email@example.com
A few years back, I lended a hand to a rebuild project.
In an effort to upgrade the porch on the back of my mom's house into an actual usable room, we undertook a weekend nearly tearing the porch apart, and building it back up. The original walls were thin and leaky, the original windows were small and inefficient. Long ago, they had replaced the sliding door to the porch with some French doors, but the time had come to make the room match its entryway.
So with a couple of massive picture windows at the ready, we set about taking apart the walls. Tearing out old, failing insulation. Knocking out 2x4s. Everything was out except the load-bearing planks, and then after propping the roof up, we took those out too. Everyone destroyed what was their at their own pace. It was done in a half-day.
The hard part was building back up. Plotting out the layout for the new lumber. Figuring out which pieces went where, so we can accommodate the upgrades. Measuring and cutting drywall for the new, cathedral-style ceiling took planning and brainpower. Putting it into place took manpower and teamwork. Comparatively speaking, it too much longer than the teardown: about 3 days of heavy work to get everything up, with smaller things like siding coming later in the year. But the finished product is far and away better than what we started with: that room is now where the Christmas tree stands each year.
That's an awfully long set up to draw a metaphor to what's occurred at Savage Arena this year, but any of you that's done any remodel project knows the self-satisfaction of a job well done, and you've got to think Coach Tod Kowalcyk is brimming with it this season.
With the team winning it's tenth game in a row on Wednesday night, the Rockets have matched a start to the season that they haven't had in 15 years. A phenomenal start for a team that was picked to win their division in the preseason. All five starters are averaging double-digit scoring, and players are getting national recognition.
It's quite a leap from when Coach Kowalcyk came to Toledo in 2010. Try not to think about the 2 seasons under He Who Shall Not Be Named, notching 7 wins in year 1, and 4 wins in year 2 before being chased out of town. Yeah, he didn't inherit anything great, but boy was the program brought down quickly. Academic issues, team culture issues… it was going to be a long term process building the team back up better than it was before.
And yes, he brought some help with in in Rian Pearon, Julius Brown, and Matt Smith, all transferring in from his old program. The coaching team he assembled picked out the pieces, planned out the rehab, and bit-by-bit, rebuilt the team.
It wasn't easy, particularly trying to get out from under the APR restrictions. It particularly burned them last year, when the team had tied for the top in the MAC West, but because of postseason ineligibility, were not allowed to progress any further.
This year, however, the final pieces of the puzzle clicked into place, and we're now seeing the finished product. Upperclassmen leaders, talented underclassmen, a higher educational standard, and an expectation of winning. This is a team that plays smart ball, can adjust when it needs, and doesn't collapse down the stretch. It's a group of guys that doesn't require one superstar, but rather used heavy lifting and teamwork to rebuild the walls and install the windows. And now, their Christmas gift to you, Toledo, is a team that's already doing great things this year, and will keep doing them the rest of the way.
Tags: basketball, Christmas gift, Coach Tod Kowalcyk, Julius Brown, MAC West, matt smith, remodel project, Rian Pearon, Savage Arena, Toledo Rockets


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Lapp, aka 'Pizzaexpert,' aka 'Worst Pizza' Appears on the Gary Vaynerchuk Show
Lapp, who you might know here on Slice as pizzaexpert (aka the Worst Pizza Guy), appeared on Gary Vaynerchuk's Wine Library TV today. Vaynerchuk gives him some good-natured shit because Lapp doesn't drink (the first guest to come on and not drink with him) and because Lapp likes the Miami Dolphins (Vaynerchuk is a HUGE Jets fan.) Vaynerchuk tastes three wines he thinks might go well with pizza: 2008 Shaya Rueda: A white. He likes. Reminds him of Capri Sun. 2007 Il Maniaco Montepulciano D'abruzzo: A red. Whoa. He HATES this one. Makes me wonder why he sells it... More


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Your gift
may be worth more! Many companies will match the charitable contributions of
their employees. Please contact your company for more information.
The Civic Orchestra of Chicago is the training orchestra of the CSO, and the only orchestral training
program affiliated with a major professional orchestra. Participating musicians
are recent college graduates or graduate level music students who are preparing
for careers in music. In addition to intense rehearsal preparation for formal
concerts led by world class conductors, musicians participate in musical
demonstrations and community chamber concerts to develop their skills as
advocates for classical music. All Civic Orchestra activities are offered free
of charge to eliminate financial and geographic barriers that prevent people
from participating in the arts. The Civic Orchestra of Chicago—an
important part of the Negaunee Music Institute at the Chicago
Symphony Orchestra—is a vital part of Chicago's musical community. It is an
invaluable asset that helps to keep alive the rich heritage of orchestras all
around the world. However, it takes the financial support of many loyal donors
to make this wonderful program possible.


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Enhance your modern living room with this brushed steel finished semi-flushmount ceiling light featuring a mosaic design on its giclee printed canvas drum shade.
Define your style with this made-to-order drum shade semi-flushmount ceiling light. The design features an exclusive pattern printed on high-quality canvas. A white acrylic diffuser at the bottom of the shade prevents glare. Includes extra cable and cord so you can vary the hanging height. Shade is made-to-order. Arno Mosaic Daybreak pattern design by Stacy Garcia. U.S. Patent # 7,347,593.
Our associates are standing by to assist you.


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Online Shopping Information
Online Purchasing
Online purchases from Movado.com may be made by individuals who are residents of the U.S., for delivery within the U.S., including Alaska, Hawaii and Puerto Rico. We are unable to deliver online purchases to other locations at this time, but we invite you to visit one of our many authorized retailers. A worldwide list of authorized Movado retailers can be found by clicking here.
All products are subject to availability. We reserve the right to supply only part of an order; or to divide an order into multiple shipments to expedite delivery. We also reserve the right to change the terms or duration of any special offers or sales promotion. We will inform you by email if we are unable to fill your order. Any individual customer may purchase up to five units of each watch model and we reserve the right to further limit the quantity of products we supply.
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To ensure the secure delivery of your order, all products are shipped via Federal Express. We are therefore unable to ship to P.O. Boxes or any other addresses not covered by Federal Express delivery. To further safeguard your purchase, an adult must sign for the shipment package at time of delivery.
For each address within the United States, the following charges apply:
Movado cannot be responsible for unanticipated delays.
As soon as your purchase ships, we will email you a shipping confirmation which will allow you to track the status of your shipment online.
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If you wish to cancel or modify your order, please send an email as soon as possible to email@example.com – or call us toll free at 1-800-810-2311. We will try to accommodate your request, but once an order has been submitted we cannot guarantee the purchase can be cancelled or modified. Once you have received your online order, please refer to our return instructions included with your shipment.
Movado accepts the following forms of payment for online purchases:
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Every Movado watch we sell comes backed by a two-year limited warranty which covers the movement of your watch if it proves to be defective in either material or workmanship under normal use. Complete warranty information, along with an abbreviated list of authorized Movado service centers, is provided in the operating instructions, warranty & service guide booklet that will be shipped with your watch. Full warranty information and a current, complete list of authorized service centers may also be found online in the Customer Service section of Movado.com http://www.movado.com/customer-service/warranty-information/
Products purchased from Movado online come handsomely packaged in a signature Movado gift box. At your request, we will be happy to add a complimentary Movado grosgrain ribbon and personalized gift card.
Online purchases will be accepted for a full refund/exchange when returned in their original condition within 30 days of delivery, and accompanied by the original sales invoice. A Return Authorization number, which may be obtained by calling Customer Service at 1 800-810-2311, is required for all returns/exchanges. Refunds will be issued to the purchaser in the same form of payment used for the original sales transaction. Gift recipients must contact Customer Service at 1-800-810-2311 to arrange an exchange; refunds will not be issued for watches received as gifts, and exchanges must be of equal or higher value. Credits cannot be issued until merchandise being returned or exchanged is received.
Upon receipt of your Return Authorization Number, simply use the free shipping return label enclosed in the original packaging and send to our Customer Service Center at:
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Please note that we are available Monday–Friday, 9AM – 5PM prevailing Eastern Time, excluding holidays.


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The Yadkin Valley Sewer Authority will begin its Southwest Elkin Rehab Project on Monday, April 29.
For the next 10 to 12 weeks, YVSA staff and contractors KRG Utilities will be conducting TV inspections and cleaning of the waste water sewer system in the Southwest Elkin area.
According to the YVSA, more than 10 percent of sewer lines are cleaned annually, per regulation. By continually maintaining and repairing the public sewer system to keep it in good working condition, the authority says it reduces the potential for backups.
"We have 85 miles of sewer. That's over 8.5 miles of preventative cleaning every year," said Nicole Johnston, executive director of the YVSA.
"The cost of the project is $800,000," said John Holcolmb, who serves as budget manager for the YVSA. "We'll be getting a grant from the Clean Water Management Trust Fund for $600,00. We qualify for a state revolving loan the $200,000 balance at 0 percent interest. That's a tremendous savings when you can get about 75 percent of the cost paid for by grants."
The TV inspections will be conducted via a camera that runs through the pipes and gives an image for the crew to see above ground. Crews will replace defective piping.
Work is expected to occur Monday through Friday, between 7:30 a.m. and 5 p.m., and barring weather problems, should be finished by early July.
According to the YVSA, business and home owners do not need to take any special precautions and there will be no interruption to your water or sewer service.
YVSA officials urge residents to drive with additional caution when the work crew is working in the streets. No roads will be blocked and traffic and emergency vehicles will always have a clear path through.
Two months ago, a Jonesville resident saw what can happen when sewer lines back up. The street sewer drainage pipe became clogged by roots from trees and grease from frying pans, according to the YVSA.
The homeowner was evacuated, and the bill was covered insurance through the League of Municipalities.
For questions or for more information, contact the YVSA at 336-835-9819.


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American Society for Gastrointestinal Endoscopy
National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse
Canadian Association of Radiologists
Public Health Agency of Canada
National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse website. Available at:
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/colonoscopy/. Updated September 11, 2013. Accessed September 15, 2014.
Frequently asked questions about colonoscopy and Sigmoidoscopy. American Cancer Society website. Available at:
http://www.cancer.org/Healthy/FindCancerEarly/ExamandTestDescriptions/faq-colonoscopy-and-sigmoidoscopy. Accessed September 15, 2014.
6/2/2011 DynaMed's Systematic Literature Surveillance. http://www.ebscohost.com/dynamed/: Mills E, Eyawo O, et al. Smoking cessation reduces postoperative complications: a systematic review and meta-analysis.
Am J Med.
This content is reviewed regularly and is updated when new and relevant evidence is made available. This information is neither intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider prior to starting any new treatment or with questions regarding a medical condition.
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McCain: 'That's one of the dumbest questions I've ever heard'
Sen. John McCain was rather put off by a reporter's question on Wednesday, as the video below shows.
You may have to turn up your volume a bit, but the reporter is asking about the Gen. Petraeus scandal and its possible risk to national security and the possibility that it's a bigger issue than the Libyan attacks. McCain does not agree.


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Petrolera Zuata, Petrozuata C.A., Spanish Version
Benjamin C. Esty; Mathew Mateo Millett
Price: $6.93
Petrozuata is a proposed $2.5 billion oil-field development project in Venezuela. The case is set in 1997 as the project sponsors, Conoco and PDVSA (Venezuela's national oil company), are planning to meet with various development agencies and rating agencies regarding the proposed financial structure. The sponsors hope to raise a portion of the $1.5 billion debt in the capital markets, which will require an investment-grade rating. The key questions are whether the project will achieve an investment-grade rating and, if not, how to finance the project. Describes what turned out to be an extremely well-crafted financial transaction, one that was named "Deal of the Year" in 1997 by virtually every journal covering project finance.
Learning objective:
To give students the opportunity to address questions like why use project finance, how to allocate project risk, and how to value project investments. Also addresses the ratings process and, in particular, the possibility that a deal can pierce the sovereign ceiling (to receive a higher rating than the country rating in which it is located). Finally, shows how the capital markets are becoming an important source of funds for development projects.
Subjects Covered:
Capital markets; Developing countries; Energy; International finance; Investments; Project finance; Risk assessment; Valuation
- Geographic:Venezuela
- Industry: Petroleum extraction
- Company Employee Count:150,000
- Company Revenue:$77 billion revenues
- Event Year Begin:1996
- Event Year End:1997
For Students
Petrolera Zuata, Petrozuata C.A., Spreadsheet Supplement
Benjamin C. Esty; Mathew Mateo Millett
Published Aug 18, 2010
- Source:
- Harvard Business School
- Product #:
- Details:
- English Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet
Spreadsheet supplement for case number 299012.
- Revision Date:
- Mar 7, 2002
- Publication Date:
- Sep 23, 2009
- Discipline:
- Finance
- Source:
- Harvard Business School
- Product #:
- 22p, Spanish PDF
- Also Available in:


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|106 posts found
Old School
Joined: 3/08/04
Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.
Originally posted by Scot
Indeed, here we go again... with both extremes polarizing the debate with undebatable declarations of 'fact'.
I have not made my mind up about the full impact of desenstisation or violent games acting as a cataclyst for those pre disposed (but otherwise might not have acted on their impulses) to violent behaviour, simply because I have neither read or been part of enough studies on it to be sure either way 100%.
Have you? What do you base such a strong set of statements on?
Personally, I welcome the debate, as long as real information is bought to bear. Personal anecdotes and 'I play games and I am alright' from an individual do not count as valid information here... You do not represent everyone and what may be ok for you might not be for others.
Look, like on most things to do with life, I tend to not trust people who want to constantly tell me 'how it is'.
If you are not asking questions and exploring truth (not just *your* truth) then you are just another blow hard really. I get the need to defend what you love, and your choices and behaviours, from outside assault but... well, you get it...
Login or Register to never see this panel
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You nailed it but it will never be in public discussion. There is a link to what you have said and violent crimes. Look at our crime statistics. There is a common denominator.
- demographics
- inner city
- States/cities with more gun control have more gun related murders.
The further you move away from those 3 things, the more guns people have, less gun laws, and the demographics change. Less violent crimes.
An armed society, is a polite society. Government crime statistics proves this.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
Originally posted by Vesavius
I do agree.
However, I have a hard time blaming inanimate obects for people's actions. Mass murder didn't just pop up out of nowhere after video games. It's going on since the beginning of man.
But yes, if there is to be a discussion, than all information should be on the table.
You know, I think it's better if we the people got together and worked this out instead of a group of politicians who are lobbied by one group or another. We really don't need them, they just look out for themselves not us.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
Old School
Joined: 3/08/04
Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.
Originally posted by NorseGod
I think, personally, that people are far more suceptable to influence from media then you seem to... and I don't think we are discussing the 'inanimate object', but the media that object delivers.
I also don't think the fact that people have always been violent or not is the question, I think it is 'has extreme material shown in certain video games over an extended period ever acted as a desensitiser/ normaliser or catalyst to move inviduals to violent acts that might not have gone there otherwise?'
I am right there with you on your views about politicians, but I won't discuss that here past this (forum rules and all that).
Hard Core Member
Joined: 2/14/11
Everything but blaming their own laws that allow to sell weapons to citizens like Candies....
As usual...
Spotlight Poster
Joined: 9/28/06
Dyslexics of the world...UNTIE!
Originally posted by Quirhid
It has nothing to do with the guns. If someone has made up there mind to kill people, don't you think they are going to do it at any cost? If not with guns, it would be with explosives or some other means. Besides...
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
~Isoroku Yamamoto~ Japanese Admiral
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/21/11
In the west.
Statistically we had our lowest rates of violence and murder in the 60s. The time when people that make these decisions were kids. These people were lucky to be born in a golden era, today looks bad to them, but now is a way better their grandparents era.
The general trend of the world in general over the years Is to become LESS violent. You only need compare now to the first half of the twentieth century.
We occasionally have peaks where it goes up (for example look at new York in the 70s and 80s) but over time its a general downward trend.
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/23/05
"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."
Originally posted by Scot
You mention the UK Scot, and I find it really interesting how many countries, countries that love their video games (like Germany, South Korea and the UAE), have taken steps to limit the consumption of indecent content in video games.
Here in the United States, video games are some of the best protected forms of expression in the history of expression. We have multi-billion dollar media conglomerates who work night and day to put these games out there. Frankly, even when we pass laws--like we did in California--the courts strike them down.
So you see, I'm not really sure why we are so agitated over this whole issue. I don't see our seven video game animations that will make you puke going away any time soon. In fact, I only see better death scenes, more of an emphasis on gore and more prevalent in the titles to come.
And you know what, the violence is so pervasive, and so overdone, it really isn't anything "special" anymore. You see the kind of one-upmanship that occurs between the publishers at things like E3, each one trying to make the gore more shocking than the next guy, so they can get their games noticed. It ain't "shock and awe" to see Kratos decapitate a zombie in a fountain of blood. It's shock and yawn. Seeing a person's head explode isn't even "cool" anymore. It's just normal.
In short, gore is just...boring. One wonders what...if anything...is shocking to a guy who plays games anymore.
And despite the opinions of our mothers, our educators, our medical experts and our media experts that perhaps...just perhaps...it isn't a good thing when a person finds depictions of exploding heads "boring," they have been--for the most part--successfully ignored and marginalized for the entire history of this issue.
Don't worry. Our gorefests are safe. Those who are running this hyped up "crackdown" on violent video games don't have the money or the political clout to truly crack down on them. But are mothers safe from the "crackdown" of manchildren on them?
I find it really funny that we give exploding headshots a pass, but we ought to get tough on mothers instead...as if being a mother isn't "tough" already, and as if they don't already hold themselves responsible for the children they raise. But what isn't funny is that, given the huge moneyed interests that make a living by selling us ammo, firearms, $60 first person shooters, and virtual guns in the item stores, we might actually get our wishes granted.
But getting tough on parents isn't going to make exploding heads any less boring to us.
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
Apprentice Member
Joined: 5/14/10
They say that guns don't kill people, people kill people, I call bullshit on that guns were designed to serve one purpose and one purpose only, and that is to kill, someone or something. Assult rifles and large capacity anmunitions do not belong in the hands of the public at large, bambi doesn't pack heat.
When it comes to overthrowing a tyranical government what's an assult rifle going to do against a drone with a nuke? Why not be more productive and address the issues that cause crime in the first place, say like poverty? the monetary system? Living in a state of scarcity? Why do we tolerate it? Only living organizism on the face of the planet that chooses to live in scarcity, think about it.
I don't agree with all of that because I think people are focusing on inanimate objects and not the actions of people, themselves. However, I am interested in your view. I wouldn't rule it out and I would like to hear more opinions from all of us.
It is we who have the authority over games over those who have never picked one up. Those people shouldn't be allowed to pass judgement for the rest of us.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
Novice Member
Joined: 10/12/12
If anything, violent video games keep people from going out and killing everyone. Let's them blow some steam off. Sure helps me feel better after dealing with another idiot at work etc.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Novice Member
Joined: 8/18/07
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-truth-about-guns-video-games/ check this out
Elite Member
Joined: 1/13/10
Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
Hard Core Member
Joined: 7/18/10
Much as I hate John Smedley, what he said at the time of Shawn Woolley's suicide in 2008, allegedly from playing Everquest is true today in terms of the violence and games debate:
"It's entertainment. Is a book dangerous? Is a TV show dangerous? I think the answer is no. People need to take responsibility and say, 'Hey, you know, this is too much. Enough's enough.' It's a game."
(Source: CBS News http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-525965.html)
Originally posted by MagikrorriM
I'm going to reply to this. Don't take it as coming down on you, I really want you to do some research on your own. Because when you repeat these misinformed, scripted lines that we have been hearing for weeks, you sound no different then these old guys blaming video games for mass murder. You're replacing one inanimate object for another and not holding the actual criminal accountable for their actions. Sir, I am not a criminal because I own video games and firearms. Neither of them has killed anyone on their own, all by themselves.
The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting. It's about securing a basic human right to defend ourselves. This is not my opinion, this has been ruled many times by the US Supreme Court. It was written many times by the authors of the US Constitution. It isn't to be interpreted or infringed.
What an individual chooses to do with this specific right, is their choice, not yours or mine. Firearms kill people, well, ya! But firearms are also used to deter crimes, hunting, sporting, people collect them, etc etc.
Wasn't it the fact that there is "a rifle behind every blade of grass" is what prevented Japan from invading in WW2?
Your term "assault rifle" is all wrong. Although there is a legal abilty to own automatic weapons (assault weapons), the debate is over semi-automatic weapons. Please research the difference between the two. Or look up if the military uses AR-15s or not and why.
Let me address converting semi-auto to automatic. You can find older lower receivers that you are physically able to replace or modify a part to fire as an automatic. This, however, is a Federal crime. Newer lower receivers are manufactured in such a way that won't allow those parts.
Bump firing. Look it up. I mean really research it. You will find out that bump firing trashes your $1000-$2000 firearm. Yes, there are people that still do it anyways. The most common technique is to use a shoelace. Should we regulate or ban shoelaces? This is a real question.
As far as "high-capacity magazines" go, 30rd magazines are the standard. A "high-capacity magazine" would be a 75-100rd drum. You know, like they show in movies or a book you have read. I, on the other hand, have used them. But here's a little secret, everyone with firearm experience knows that these fail and often. Not even the military uses these drums for the M-16A2/M4.
You can push for smaller capacity magazines all you like. I'll just carry more smaller ones. Takes no time to dump a mag and reload, especially for those of us that are experienced shooters and had training in the military and/or law enforcement.
Another thing to consider. This talk about "assault rifle AR-15 war machines" (that are not even used by the military). Did you know that most units have a Designated Marksman (DM) in their unit? The most common weapon used is a Remmington 700 bolt-action rifle? Did you know this? Did you also know that this same rifle is sold in any Wal-Mart across America?
This kind of talk is no different than the "blame violent video games" talk. Should we limit how many violent video games we are allowed to own? Should we limit the amount of time per day a person can play a violent video game? How about ban all violent video games all together and turn them over to the government. I mean, they are responsible to mass murder and it's for the children, right?
In closing, I will address your "overthrow the government" statement. As I have stated already, the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is pretty clear. It was to protect ourselves from from the government. What individuals choose to do with that right is their choice, not ours. By the looks of sales, they are not arming to the teeth to just hand them over later. But why not address poverty instead? Because my rights, our rights, are more important to fight for. We shouldn't be so eager to throw away our rights that so many have died for for centuries. Poverty isn't even a problem here. They have free homes, utilities, cellphones, cars, bus passes, school, food. All free. The homeless? They made a choice. They don't want to live in a shelter because they would rather use drugs, so be it, but that's the rules. Live by the rules, get shelter. Pretty simple. If poverty was real. If poverty is to blame, then why are NFL players shooting people? Are they not rich? What's their excuse? maybe it's the people? Can we finally hold people accountable for their actions?
Hope this helps you get started, I'll help you if you have questions.
Censorship is intended to create an illusion that one side of the debate is correct and unopposed. Silence is not consent.
Advanced Member
Joined: 4/25/12
video games are extremely violent and just because they don't make you pick up a gun and shoot people doesn't mean jimmy down the road won't be easily manipulated. The question we should ask ourselves is why we as humans love violence as a source of entertainment. after all our inner lust for violence created the gun in the first place
Joined: 11/22/05
"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits
What pisses me off is, they want to complain about video games and other media de-sensitizing people to violence, yet they'll show off their wars on TV like it's a pay per view wrestling event.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me
Advanced Member
Joined: 5/26/05
This Rabbit stinks!
I dont think its videogames, movies or music. I think its ignorance and dishonesty, mix some legal drugs in there and you have the perfect design for disaster.
Novice Member
Joined: 4/22/06
Originally posted by DarthMajin
Care to define "adult content" ?
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Regardless of your point of view on violence in video games or gun control or whatever, the important thing is to avoid any knee-jerk over-reaction and willingly give up our rights and freedoms.


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Can chickens help your yard flourish?
By Katie Marks, Networx
Ah, the sound of happy clucking in the backyard, the pleasure of seeing chickens sun themselves in the garden, and the joy of knowing that your soil is being thoroughly worked over by one of the best natural bug control systems on Earth. Backyard chickens are just great, aren't they?! Well, yes and no. They're fantastic, but they also require a lot of work, and some people aren't fully equipped to handle it.
That doesn't mean you can't have some of your own, though, because rent-a-chicken services have sprung up to bridge the gap between full chicken ownership and a lonely, sad life without hens. Companies will come by your house in the spring with a complete package: hens, coop, and food. They'll come back six months later to pick everything up.
What's the advantage for you? Well, you get chickens during the peak gardening months, when the sun is warm and you'll want a chicken tractor to turn over the soil, pick out bugs and slugs, and brighten up the yard, of course. Furthermore, your hens are around for their peak production season; they lay the most eggs in spring and summer, tapering off in fall and winter when the days start to get short. You won't have to deal with feeding and housing nonproductive hens in the winter, when they'll require extra care and a warm, snuggly coop to protect them from the elements.
If you lose chickens to natural predation or illness, the rent-a-chicken service will replace them. Should you decide that you're madly in love with your rental, they're happy to offer an option to buy.
This approach to backyard chickens is totally fantastic. It gives people who are thinking about chickens a chance to check them out, for starters, without the burdens of ownership. Rather than taking on chickens, later realizing they're too much, and struggling to come up with a new home for them, people can return their chickens at the end of the rental period or request an early pickup. For people who know that chickens would be too much, having rental chickens allows them to have their hens without the hardship, which is great news for everybody.
In terms of humane concerns, chicken rental definitely improves chances for hens; as backyard chickens have caught on, more cases of neglect, abandonment, and other issues have arisen because people inexperienced with chickens get in over their heads. A rental service that screens caretakers, provides them with information on chickens, and mentors them through the process provides an extra level of assurance that hens are going to a good, safe, and healthy place.
Check the internet for chicken rental services in your area if you're interested, or ask around among urban gardening and farming groups. You can also rent other livestock like goats if you need brush clearance services or just want a furry friend for a little while!
Source: http://www.networx.com/article/need-temporary-chickens-rent-a-hen-has
Copyright 2015 by KSAT - All rights reserved.


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Quick Links
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On this uniquely styled Vintage Scrollwork Moonstone Pendant, swirls of sterling silver surround a stunningly beautiful oval moonstone. The luminous gem, which measures 13 x 10 millimeters, is encircled by scrolls of silver that call to mind classic jewelry styles from centuries past. This beautiful pendant, which measures a total of 1.2 inches in length, hangs from your choice of a 16, 18, or 20 inch rolo chain and is suitable for wear with casual and dressy outfits. Pair it with one of our moonstone rings for an ethereally lovely look.
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Eve's Addiction.com wants you to be a happy customer. We want you to be completely satisfied with the sterling silver jewelry that you receive from us, as we only sell high quality silver and cubic zirconia cz jewelry. We do understand that you may not like your purchase for some reason.
You may return or exchange your jewelry within 60 days of purchase if you are not satisfied with it. The jewelry must be returned in its original condition for a refund or exchange. Engraved, personalized, photo, monogram, name and initial, chocolate and clearance items are not returnable or exchangeable.


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Belkin headphone splitter - accessory review
The Belkin headphone splitter adapter is a great accessory to have on hand for long trips or nights at the coffee house. Its purpose is simple. It allows two people to plug their own headphones into the same device. This is great for a long flight where you and another person may want to watch the same movie on an iPad or iPhone.
Click through for a quick review, pics, and a video!
Headphone splitters are a relatively cheap way to share media with someone else from one device. I've always found headphone splitters extremely useful on long car rides or flights. Two people can watch the same movie or listen to the same music off one device. This was always great when I was traveling with a friend who didn't have an iPad or iPhone.
Overall, I didn't notice any sound quality reduction from using the splitter with the iPad or iPhone. I tried with just regular headphones and then with 2 pairs of headphones plugged into the splitter. This is an extremely cheap accessory that's easy to place in a travel bag and forget about. It's there when you need it. They are available in both black and white.
You can pick one up from the Belkin headphone splitter adapter from the TiPb accessory store for $4.95 right now (that's 75% off).
- Easy to use and connect
- Small so it's easily stowed away in any bag or purse
- Standard headphone jack size allows for virtually any headphones to be used
- If you use an Apple bumper on your iPhone 4, the adapter won't fit. You'll have to remove the bumper
- As the main connection is somewhat wide, you may have issues fitting it in the headphone jack with certain cases.
[gallery link="file" columns="2"]
Have something to say about this story? Leave a comment! Need help with something else? Ask in our forums!
Reader comments
Belkin headphone splitter - accessory review
Do the on-headphone controllers (voice control, volume, pause, skip, previous) still work?
That's a huge rug munchin' bee-yotch!
Now I really do like this, really great for sharing music with my girlfriend while lying on the beach sunbathing , cool!
Could be good for recording a phone conversation. Does the other set of headphones hear the output from the users inline microphone?
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Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I just don't see what the greater implications are. I'll tell you what I do know for a fact. I'm not going to sell any of my CDs to anyone other than those folks who like the music, and none of those people could give damn one about Kenny G, most probably. And the people who do like Kenny G sure as hell aren't going to like my music. Hell, they'll never even hear about it. They'll never know it exists, any more than they'll ever know about Eric Dolphy or the Art Ensemble of Chicago. Two different worlds. Two different universes, actually.
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I fully "get" the idea your putting forth here. And of course, you're fully entitled to your opinion. But it really feels more like you're defending a religion.
It isn't a case of calling a Toyota a Cadillac. That's a bad example because those are objective items.
There are no universally accepted objective boundaries that contain all that is jazz. The genre has been around too long and fragmented into too many sub-genres, each operating on it's own set of "rules", that to try and say that there is a single set of criteria that makes it so just doesn't hold water. Especially since so many sub-genres include so much cross-over from other genres. The whole affair of trying to define it becomes this slippery mess.
It seems to me that the whole point of trying to define it to begin with is just so that you can exclude certain unpopular players. Any notion of "true jazz" just rings hollow because really, what is that?
When I listen to Count Basie (esp early '50s) I hear rock and roll. The songs all have catchy hooks with melodies that stick on the brain for days, and are cleverly arranged much like a modern pop song. The main difference seems to be that the rhythm swings and horns and piano are the dominant instruments.
Then there's the way out there stuff like Miles and Coltrane that was very different. And later came smooth jazz.
I really don't see how you're going to be able to devise a set of rules that includes these forms of jazz that can necessarily exclude Kenny G.
How come we can't be happy with two forms of music: the good and the bad and everyone gets to define them for themselves
Last edited by MikeM; 03-29-2010 at 05:42 AM.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
The other question is that if properly marketed, forms of music that record companies may not readily understand might actually do better than one would think. As an early on fan or Metheny, I got taken through a world that included his work with Dewey Redman, Ornette Coleman, Steve Reich. I got to see him with Jack De Johnette in the NY clubs. It turned me on to a lot of great players. You can't put a price on that. His success is not only due to his talent; it is due to have record executives who knew how to procure it. I think Metheny understood what it meant to young artists who could also be pigeon-holed into making radio friendly music.
As far as Smooth Jazz and Real Jazz. It's kind of a done deal that people recognize smooth jazz is not 'really jazz'. It brings up interesting debates about the role of pop culture in the history of jazz. Regardless of what my post may allude to, I wold be surely left of center in that debate, esp as opposed to traditionalists. As I said, I've longed listened to Joe Sample, George Benson, Chuck Mangione etc.You may not be able to objectively qualify what jazz is; but you can certainly say what it isn't. Black Eyes Peas, not jazz. Kenny G, not jazz.
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Last edited by Deltadrummer; 03-30-2010 at 11:32 AM.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Jay, man did you read the whole post? this is certainly an example of quoting something that grants no context. :)
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
See, if someone, a jazz musician, sees an opportunity to sell more units by making smooth jazz then isn't that up to him? The composers and musicians who do what they do because that's the only way they want to do it, they'll always be around. Maybe nobody in the general CD buying public will ever hear of them but they'll always be around.
To me the point is to like what you like, you know, buy the products you like, support the artists you like, listen to the music you like.
Nobody in their right mind goes into jazz expecting to get rich. And of course there's crap music out there, some of it is called rock, some of it is called R&B and some of it is called jazz, but so what?
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
You get no argument from me. The one thing I would say is that I think the smooth jazz format became to constricted for jazz musicians to really see it as an opportunity to do anything except make money, which isn't of itself a bad thing. Why not write pop tunes or work on Wall Street is you want to make money.
But if you want to do large grandeur projects where you take 8-10-16 musicians out on the road, like Metheny has done, funding becomes a big issue. Christoph Eschenbach's or Michael Tilson Thomas conduct orchestras with 60+ people in them . .. puts a lot of people to work. The performance of certain types of music or to have certain types of aspirations in music necessitates a lot of cash flow. Those types of projects are not going to generate the per capita income of a successful punk rock trio like Green Day. There is a cultural advantage of major orchestras and prominent jazz ensembles. You have to argue that other wise why bother. Everyone could spend their lives listening to The Ramones. But much great music was not profitable in the life of its composer. So even though I argue that, I also know it to be true. And I know that stands in the way of your Libertarian ideology. So be it.
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I think we need to consider how much music is crossover. For instance, if Grover Washington or David Sanborn is considered to be jazz, then why not Kenny G?
Kenny is playing pretty well the same genre IMO, just that the other guys are groovier. Maybe that's the difference? Kenny's playing is like David S under sedation :)
There is a jazz pathway - a lineage - that lead us to Kenny G. The music crossed over and crossed over until KG arrived, in what was a pretty logical progression. If KG didn't exist he'd have to be invented - he was inevitable when you look at the changes in the musical climate over the past few decades.
As an equivalent, Jimi Hendrix played rock. So does Green Day. The guitars and drums are still loud but that's where the similarity ends.
Just because the new kid on the block brings down the neighbourhood doesn't mean s/he doesn't live there. Rock is a little less exclusive because it has a lower musical status, so Green Day is "rock", although some gatekeeper types might disagree. To say "I'm a jazz musician" implies a baseline level of skill, and that "baseline" is pretty damn high! That's why people talk about jazz snobs lol
Definition doesn't entirely depend on public perception, it also depends on peer acceptance.
For instance, for a person to be considered Aboriginal in Australia they must be accepted as such by the Aboriginal community. So if a person only has an Aboriginal grandmother and is as white as can be, if they are accepted by the Aboriginal community then they are eligible for grants programs etc. It should be said that being accepted by the the Aboriginal community as one of them is not as easy as it may sound.
So Kenny IS a jazz musician if you talk about broader public perceptions but he is NOT a jazz player when it comes to peer acceptance. Paradoxes exist in this life. Think Schrödinger's cat :)
Trying to squeeze either/or cases into a neat box is both inaccurate and misleading - unless you're in marketing or politics of course, in which case it's all in a day's work :)
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
It really is the same with a big part of pop music, which is a very rudimentary musical art form, but if it appeals to the majority, why not? I think the problem isn't the simple music appealing to many, but the frustration of those who are more sophisticated, but less appreciated by the masses.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Labels are just for selling purposes. Stores need to categorize. Concert advertisers also do. Ads in general tend to. But why do musicians even have to?
I'm not too interested in style categorization myself. In fact, I'm rather bad at it. I just know if I love something, and I don't really care what the exact name for it could be...
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
The sheer pleasure of slappin' a fool who had it coming, cannot be underestimated in these politically correct times.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
If I was fool enough to sell 50 million albums I'd happily take a good slapping!
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Dumb ass rock drummer here again. I asked the question many posts ago, "what is real jazz". Considering all the jazz expertise here, not one reply, yet still plenty of reference to real jazz or KG not being a jazz muso. I'm starting to see why jazz has an accessibility issue. Non secular fans & musos staunchly defend their perception of the pure form whilst simultaneously rubbishing KG style stuff. This portrays an almost gentlemans club click that implies elitism and brands smooth jazz as worthless. Am I the only one who perceives smooth jazz as having significant genre gateway benefits?
All music genres have a section that appeals greatly to the musos and informed fans. A part of the genre that innovates, inspires & displays musical or compositional prowess. That's great, but doesn't mean that the wider appeal stuff is without value. Ok, it might be less wholesome, but it does draw people into the genre that would otherwise find the "pure" stuff too taxing to appreciate on first listening.
I get the pure jazz argument, I really do, I just don't think it's such a good idea for the promotion of jazz to a wider audience. Like all sales tactics, pull them in with the tag line then sell them on the detail. KG isn't a threat to anyone who wishes to pursue a deeper jazz career, but he is potentially a useful sales tool. Just like gateway drugs & art, pull people in with the easy to appreciate material. The ones who's inquisitive flame is offered oxygen will look further, others will pass onto something else.
Life is full of choices and musical direction is no different. Anyone who wishes to pursue a "pure", individual, innovative, etc, section of a genre must appreciate that their chances of commercial success are very limited. I don't like it, but that's the reality, and maligning someone who's taken the perceived technically easy route won't change that. It will, however, give the wider impression that you're bitter & precious. Offering an opinion on a forum such as this is one thing. Going public & getting personal is entirely another. I respect opinions offered on this forum, especially those with passion as their foundation, but the total dismissal of anothers work is counter productive IMO.
Wasn't Louis Armstrong the Kenny G of his day?
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Not being a jazz purist or expert, I'd say 'real' jazz has to do with staying true to 'jazz ideas' like striving for expertise in improvisation (if possible over rather complex harmonic structures, interplay, searching for the new (while still staying true to some dogmatic aspects of the idiom), and creating music on the spot.
Also, I think traditionally (think the earlier days' big names)jazz musicians are not looking for the big money or great success among the masses, but rather musical expression and uniqueness, and big respect among peers.
Wasn't jazz the pop and dance music of its glory days?
Today I see several lines of musical stylistics come together. I mean you can even hear the swing in most hip-hop beats, and 'jazzy' voicings in several styles. People who constantly talk about 'real jazz' are purists who only think of jazz in a traditional, dogmatic sense. It really is a matter of perspective. As stated earlier, to most pop music listeners, Norah Jones or Kenny G are pure jazz, to virtually all jazz musicians they are pop. If they are good musicians is another kind of story IMO, I'd separate those two issues.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I dont have the answers to the questions you raise in this post, Andy.. but the guy who came closest ( to my mind ) to answering the "what is Jazz" poser, was a member called Jazzgregg who seems quite a rarity here lately, after he moved from Toronto to the UK. He said Jazz isn't about the music, its a lifestyle, an attitude, an ethic . An approach to life..
On the gateway thing, I think you are right, wider acceptance is a huge issue with jazz, but someone ( I think it was Steamer or Ken ) questioned that very premise itself. Why should everything be so easily accessible? and does anything that is that accessible ever be that special?
On Duke, I thought his dream was to have his music viewed and percieved as modern Classical music. This was also about an acceptance of sorts and needing to be on the same mantle as Bach and Mozart. Ken can expand on this, I'm sure.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Really, by that definition, it's sounding more like a philosophical doctrine. Or, given the exclusivity, maybe more like a men's club or Freemasonry.
For a non-jazzer like me, it's all about the music. I take "jazz" literally and my take on the spirit of jazz is "to jazz things up". Attitude and instinct play a role - the refusal to be staid, to be "square". Over the years, the jazzing up of things has become a fine art with huge levels of coordination, dexterity and control required to get anywhere near the state-of-the-art.
Yet, impressive and fun as that stuff is, the jazz that I like best doesn't rely on that stuff alone but has a sense of lyricism, it tells a story, it takes you on a journey, at times it's playful (something I don't hear happening enough of in jazz these days) ... it talks to you ... and with the yummiest of sonics.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Imagine, if you will, that all jazz lite material was wiped from the face of the earth. Only the purest, most progressive, most competent material remains. A younger listener with no previous exposure to such material is likely to find it, as a minimum, perplexing, and at the other end of the scale, dismissed as rubbish. Why, because to those with simplistic taste, either by age or preference, there's no hook, no discernible melody.
The likes of Kenny G offer something that is easy to access. It might not be great, but it does at least offer an introduction to a different sound than the electro puke computer processed garbage that rules the airwaves. Real instruments played by musicians and a "flavour" of jazz is surely preferable to the younger generation regarding jazz as untouchable technically motivated stuff played only by those permitted into the inner circle.
I think that jazz, as many other minority interest genres such as classical, can only exist by evolution & that can only happen with new blood. New people and new ideas are essential to progression and keeping the genre fresh & challenging. Gateway music has a vital part to play in that IMO.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
My entry into jazz was by way of Chick Corea and Weather Report. Not what you'd call the purists picks by any stretch. I was basically a rocker who got totally seduced by the displaced rhythms and the crazy chords.
I then went backwards to discover Bitches Brew and Miles and further backwards to Ornette and Coltrane and Monk all the way back to Parker, Lester Young and then forward again to some of the crazy wonderful modern stuff thats going on now... so did I come in through a wider access point like you recommend? - YES!
My 16 yr old loves and listens only to jazz. No overt influencing on my part in the least. All his friends are head bangers and metalheads ( obviously ) and he's the odd one out. He loves Charles Mingus, Archie Shepp, and Sun Ra. For the uninitiated, these arent the easy listening variety. No trainer wheels were needed for him to find the road to the music that spoke to his heart..He found his own access point. Probably the only 16 year old Jazzsnob in the world.
Ying & Yang. : )
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Nu jazz and some of the more organic hip hop would strike me as better gateway music because it's usually less soppy and sometimes downright cooking.
Kenny's a bit TOO accessible. He ought to get some enthusiastic musos behind him and slip a bit more pepper into his albums. An old friend used to play David Sanborn's Hideaway album on a loop - ideal to get very relaxed with at his beach house. Similar genre but there's more starch in the shirt. The sooky tracks were a bit less sooky than Kenny's and I remember a great little funk number, Anything You Like, and another track with a lovely, sleazy, oozy feel whose name escapes me.
If Kenny's going to open the gate he ideally should make the effort to have some goodies on his albums with a bit of oomph - it doesn't have to be like RTF or Herbie - just a bit of edge. In fact, he might even revitalise his waning popularity by releasing something more lively.
Go on, Kenny! Get out there and show 'em that ya got it!
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Why is jazz so special? Why is Fletcher Henderson, Ellington or Bill Evans so special? As Abe pointed out music that is is accessible is usually not as special. Jazz has a rich harmonic language for one that in the case those mentioned above did not come out of the bluebut out of their assimilating the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel, Bartok and even Schoenberg to some regard. I am a drummer, I don't solo in the same way a sax or pianist does, and my harmonic knowledge is limited. I do know that these harmonic changes create great vehicles for soloing, The blues scale can be a very interesting melodic and harmonic device because it has a major and minor intervals as well as a tritone at its disposal. From there you have the modal basis of musical theory that includes the addition of melodic characteristics. When you are soloing, you have to understand the melodic character of the changes, the scales that they are based on and this helps point you in the direction you will go.
In Smooth jazz the harmonic vocabulary is more limited. Kenny G, as Pat pointed out, uses a lot of pentatonic melodies. One of the things about pentatonic melodies is that it is hard to write a bad one. Take you fingers over the black notes of the piano, "Every little breeze seems to whisper Louise." Everything sounds nice. That is because in a pentatonic scale there is no dissonance. There are no interesting intervals like a tritone, a minor sixth or minor seventh. There is no chromaticism. Everything is at least step a part. This creates no drama, no tension and no interest. Most folk melodies are based on the pentatonic scale. The argument is that as such, smooth jazz does not use harmony or even the blues scale as the great jazz players employed it; but relies on very simple harmonic exploration for its soloing.
From there you have the interplay of a great jazz ensemble, the counterpoint, the nuance, the drama comes into play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jFL1KuvSyo
Again, a keyboard player would more readily give a better analysis.
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Last edited by Deltadrummer; 03-29-2010 at 06:04 PM.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
All us "serious" jazz musicians are all outsiders and crazy folks anyways not much interested in wider public acceptance as individuals or as ensemble players or for the music we love in general....speaking for myself and what i've seen and experienced. Part of the outsider's and jazz musicians code of order and ethics....:}.
Jazz is a very personal expression that touches you in a deep and special way at ANY age, no special handshake for membership is required. It can start at one place {tunes/standards} and as you dig deeper as your ears and emotions get more hungry for more personal creative expressions within the "jazz tree" can lead to "out jazz" {free improv} many times. Some may dig and do one or both or some other variation from the root tree in the mix...no judgements what you choose it all music. Whether you stay closer to the core of the family jazz tree {tunes/song forms/changes} in a more straight ahead swing based setting or it like to wander out on its many branches it's all interconnected in the greater scope to the mother jazz tree from my take on what I both like to listen to and record and perform since I do both since that's where my creative juices have directed me in a natural manner and way. Whether folks dig the stuff on the outer branches or closer to the inner trunk one over the other means nothing to the one living the music in the middle of the ever evolving personal jazz journey.
What is real jazz? well the answer to that that's gets very personal and close to home to some of us. With well over 3000 post here in my own personal way i've answered that question in some detail in the past from my personal perspective and life living reference point as a example. Many others have offered there own take on that question but many of those don't post much here anymore, only a very small handful still do. I covered it...others covered it from their own personal place and perspective on the subject when the question was asked before. Sometimes the clear direct answers from a jazz musician perspective to this question have led to some truly lively debates...... doesn't change in any way how the jazz musician plays, records and lives the music.
Bottom line the jazz outsiders in the trenches do it better in actions {playing the music} rather than any mere words can better express.
"What does jazz or what is real jazz really mean?" everyone has a different answer and take to that based on where they sit on the subject of the music in question in their own life.
Last edited by Steamer; 03-29-2010 at 06:39 PM. Reason: more stuff
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
For those who haven't heard the tune, you can get a laugh out of these lyrics, as witty as a Pollyanna post.
I Agree With Pat Metheny
Richard Thompson
I agree with Pat Metheny
Kenny's talents are too teeny
He deserves the crap he's going to get
'Overdubbed himself on Louis
What a musical chop suey
Raised his head above the parapet
Now Louis Armstrong was the king
He practically invented swing
Hero of the twentieth century
'Did duets with many a fella
"Fatha" Hines, Bing, Hoagy, Ella
Strange he never thought of Kenny G
A meeting of great minds, how nice
Like Einstein and Sporty Spice
Digitally fused in an abortion
Oh, Kenny fans will doubtless rave
While Satchmo turns inside his grave
Soprano man's bit off more than his portion
Brainless pentatonic riffs
Display our Kenny's arcane gifts
But we don't care, his charms are so beguiling
He does play sharp, but let's be fair
He has such lovely crinkly hair
We hardly notice, we're too busy smiling
How does he hold those notes so long?
He must be a genius. Wrong!
He just has the mindlessness to do it
He makes Britney sound like scat
If this is jazz I'll eat my hat
An idle threat, I'll never have to chew it
So next time you're in a rendezvous
And Kenny's sound comes wafting through
Don't just wince, eliminate the cause
Rip the tape right off the muzak
Pull the plug, or steal a fuse, Jack
The whole room will drown you in applause
Yes, Kenny G has gone too far
The gloves are off, it's time to spar
Grab your hunting rifle, strap your colt on
It's open season on our Ken
Yet I await the moment when
We lay off him and start on Michael Bolton
Oh, I agree with Pat Metheny
Kenny's talents are too teeny
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Nope, no Libertarian ideology in this drummer.
Edit: I apologize for my brief political editorial.
Call me J
Last edited by con struct; 03-29-2010 at 10:28 PM.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
keep it simple, You asked the question "What Is Real Jazz?"
Capetown Ambush By Monk is what I consider to be Real Jazz. Man, I love that tune!
I also have the ability to like smooth Jazz. Perhaps I am a misfit! If so, then so be it!
I feel that there is room for both Real and Smooth jazz in the world.
I kind of like old drums:)
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
If someone can clarify, I would be grateful to know the true answer.
TS was the drummer I believe.
I kind of like old drums:)
Last edited by bobdadruma; 03-30-2010 at 01:19 AM.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Pat. M is coming to town. I may go see him.
Retirement...August 21, 2015
Feel. Control the Bounce.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
"Cape Town Ambush" was written by Donald Brown, a piano player who once played in Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers.
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I guess that I got the story wrong.
Thank you.
I kind of like old drums:)
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Call me J
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Speaking of inferior forms of music that masquerade as jazz.
I really like the drumming in this crap piece of work!
I hope that you all can bare your way through it.
I kind of like old drums:)
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I've found a sound clip of Kenny's band live playing Midnight Motion.
The main differences apparent to these untrained ears are the voicing, phrasing and dynamics. Miles's playing is more sensitive, emotional and vulnerable. Not that that necessarily denotes "jazz" since there are many jazz solos that are like technical fortresses. Miles's backing in that tune is more jazzy, whereas Kenny's crew is more funk-oriented. Of course Kenny doesn't use space like Miles, but who does?
Really, for all the flak the ole Ken receives, he and his band are a pretty damn slick unit, whatever anyone wants to call the music. Not my style but if that band's crappola I'll eat my hat.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
I don't know why Kenny G would even be mentioned in the same breath as jazz.
I had to laugh when he once boasted that Miles Davis had personally told him that he (Davis) thought that he (Kenny G) could really play.
I just imagined how Miles must have forced himself to keep a straight face, if he indeed did mention something like that. He might have meant that Kenny G could indeed play his instrument, but he can not play jazz.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Whatever Miles does, it is still Miles doing it and Miles making a little money was surely someone who deserved to make a little money. Like I've said, I am not the guy who hates popular jazz. I am not the guy who hates it when Herbie or Manhattan Transfer have a hit. I don't get all bent out of shape. I certainly don't have a problem with musicians making money. The original of the Cyndi cover is a little bit uninteresting; but this live version does perk it up a bit.
There has always been a problem with artists crossing over to the pop arena, like that guy Dylan. Ella had the same problem and the song books were a way of .doing a more popular repertoire. That was a good marketing idea. I like some of the song books; but they tend to be hit or miss. But Ella with Basie was quite good all around.
It's funny to listen to the bass on the Kenny track and it sounds like warmed over Stanley Clarke. The thing about smooth jazz again is that it was a marketing label, a bunch of suits researching that people like the word 'smooth' for a genre and of course jazz would give it some sophistication. It is not a genre developed by jazz musicians. I have pretty good pitch; but to a lot of musicians, probably with better pitch than me, think Kenny's pitch is sharp and they think his tone is poor. I am not so arrogant that I am going to say well they're only great jazz artists what do they know. I know better what defines jazz than great artists who perform it for a living, scholars who spend their life studying it, and people who make the sacrifice to do what they love in this life.
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
The funny aspect of what is jazz and what is pop, is that many so-called jazz standards were original show tunes, pop tunes or Broadway tunes, that were adapted by jazz bands.
I can't stand Kenny G, but this whole argument that he can't be considered "jazz' because he's "pop" is silly based on how much jazz comes from other sources. And so much jazz was the "pop" music of it's time.
Or are we going to say Buddy Rich's "West Side Story" doesn't count either?
"Summertime" is one of more recorded jazz standards, with versions done by everyone from Duke Ellington Miles, Blakley, to Coltrane. Yet it came from George Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess."
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Because it not so much the choice of the tune but more of the whole meat of the matter on the conceptual end that helps greatly with defining the parameters of the jazz content within. Again from a jazz musicians education, experience and overall musical background with those ears it's a easy one to answer based on that knowledge base of the core elements coming from the very jazz "root" tree however extended on the outer branches it can get.
It's not the tune but the content within on the individual player end or an ensemble or arranger/composer approach that the answer to the question is given......... at least for this actual jazz musician it does. As I said recently the true answer lies on where your own take on your personal experience on the subject of jazz sits.
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
But early Benny Goodman? Woody Herman? A lot of early swing and big band was very "pop" for it's time period.
(and no, I'm not comparing their skills).
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
Wasn't "The Charleston" considered to be a Jazz tune in the Roaring Twenties?
I kind of like old drums:)
Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats
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Frank Lewis
PDT Staff Writer
A Portsmouth man and a Sciotoville woman were among the three people arrested at a meth lab in South Shore, Ky. Alvin Branham, 42, of Portsmouth and Tasmine Hammons, 25, of Sciotoville, are both charged with trafficking in methamphetamine while Dennis Darby, Jr., 45, of South Shore, faces charges of manufacturing methamphetamine, first degree wanton endangerment, and possession of heroin.
On Saturday, at around 8 p.m., Greenup County Sheriff Keith Cooper said the Greenup County Drug Interdiction team discovered a large amount of methamphetamine inside a vehicle in South Shore. Upon further investigation, the Drug Interdiction team responded to 259 Sunshine Lane in South Shore.
Once at that residence an active methamphetamine lab was located. Inside that residence were Darby and a five-year-old child. There was a large amount of drug paraphernalia and items used in the manufacturing of methamphetamine inside the residence.
During a further search, heroin was found hidden on Darby's person. All three were lodged in the Greenup County Detention Center.
Cooper said more charges are expected to be forthcoming. He said the case is being investigated by deputies Cody Fuller and Jason Bryant.
Frank Lewis may be reached at 740-353-3101, ext. 252, or at email@example.com. For breaking news, follow Frank on Twitter @FrankLewisPDT.


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Lacrosse Drops to League Leaders In Final Game
- Release Date:
- April 29, 2012
- Contact:
- The Office of Sports Information
- (716) 649-7900 ext. 333
MORRISVILLE, NY – In their final game of the season, the Hilbert College men's lacrosse team lost to NEAC league-leader Morrisville State April 28. The Mustangs held a dominating advantage of shots against Hilbert as they completed their undefeated league schedule with the 21-10 victory. Nick Cavalieri scored four goals for the Hawks while Andrew Stein and Jeremy Beresovoy each netted five tallies for Morrisville.
With a 4-2 first quarter advantage, Morrisville (10-3, 7-0) went on a nine-goal explosion scoring a goal in each minute of the first seven minutes of the second quarter. Elliott Russillio broke the spree at 5:23 but the Hawks surrendered two more goals over the next sixty-seconds. Cavalieri's two second-period scores (assisted by Eric Russell and Sean Purtill) brought Hilbert as close as they would get at intermission, 13-5.
Russell, Purtill, and Russillio would each score again in the second half but the Mustangs had too much firepower for Hilbert to handle. Morrisville outshot the Hawks (71-34), picked up more ground balls (40-29) and won 24 of the 35 face-offs.
Hilbert's William Wagner finished with 30 saves in the sixty minutes he played between the pipes.
Hilbert completed their first season in the NEAC league with a fifth place finish at 4-4, and 5-7 overall.
Hilbert College, located in suburban Hamburg, N.Y., south of Buffalo, is a private four-year college founded in 1957 in the Catholic Franciscan tradition. With nearly 1,100 students, Hilbert is a dynamic Western New York college that offers career-focused majors, including one of the top criminal justice programs in the region, and more than 50 minors and concentrations. The college's engaging, student-centered campus community offers numerous leadership, internship, and service learning opportunities from which students launch successful careers while making positive changes in their communities. The Hilbert Blueprint promotes a well-rounded student experience over four years – starting with the Foundations Seminar in the freshman year, followed by Sophomore Service, Junior Symposium, and culminating with the Senior Capstone. Hilbert has expanded its academic offerings with the college's first graduate programs and new Accelerated Degree Programs geared to adult learners.
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COLUMBIA - Video from a traffic stop shows South Carolina star defensive end Jadeveon Clowney telling an officer he had just three minutes to make it to the stadium when he was stopped for doing almost 30 mph over the speed limit.
The dash camera video was released Friday by Columbia police, a day after Clowney was stopped on Interstate 26 about 6 miles from Williams-Brice Stadium. The Gamecocks were gathering there to travel to Florida for the Capital One Bowl against Wisconsin on Jan. 1.
The officer tells Clowney he was clocked doing 84 mph in a 55 mph zone. Clowney tells him he was trying to get to the stadium before the team left.
At the end of the video, Clowney switches places and lets a passenger drive.
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