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Tuesday, January 21, 2014
The Green Wave wrestling team won a tournament and picked up a region win over the long weekend.
Summerville defeated fellow Top 3 team Lexington 33-32 Saturday in the championship match for the Coach Trap Memorial Wrestling Duals held at Battery Creek High School. Summerville is the No. 2 ranked team behind Rock Hill in the latest scmat.com Class AAAA ratings and Lexington is the No. 3 ranked team.
The Green Wave advanced to the finals with a win over Beaufort in the quarterfinals and a win over West-Oak in the semifinals.
It was a total group effort, Summerville coach Darryl Tucker said. In the finals match two of our big guns lost, so when you have two guys of that caliber get beat and you still win that means everyone else stepped up.
There was good competition and it was a great weekend of wrestling.
Lexington is the defending 4-A champion but the tournament marked the second time this season Summerville has defeated the Wildcats.
Lexington has some (individual) state champs and one of the reasons we won is we were able to not give up any bonus points in those matches, Tucker said. Every time we wrestle them its going to be tough. It was a back-and-forth match but we were able to hang on and solidify the victory.
Wando placed third at the tournament and West-Oak placed fourth.
On Monday, Summerville earned a 63-9 victory over region opponent Colleton County. The Cougars opened the wrestling by winning a decision in the heavyweight match and earning a pin in the 106-pound weight class. Then Summerville won nine of the next 12 matches and received a forfeit in three others.
Guy Murray (113), Austin Delancey (126), Seton Hall (138), Jamal Lucas (160), Chad Wood (170) and Corey Alumbaugh (182) all pinned their Colleton opponent.
Tyler Fachko (132) won a major decision while Robert English (145) and Daniel Smith (152) won decisions. William Hunter (120), Robert Larson (195) and Julian Gibbs (220) received forfeits.
On Jan. 22 Summerville has another region match at Fort Dorchester. The junior varsity matches will begin around 5:45 p.m. and the varsity matches should begin around 7 p.m.
Its going to be a great atmosphere and we are expecting a battle, Tucker said. They have good coaches and their guys work hard.
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Mosaic Tile Placemats, Set of 4 1 1
Great look for the table Love the way these placemats look - they add a lot of interest to our table. One thing to note is that they're cotton and washable, which is great, but they do shrink substantially when dried in a dryer. This wasn't an issue for us as they actually fit better on our small table after shrinking, but just something to keep in mind. March 15, 2013
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What's needed in catechesis?
Joseph A. Komonchak May 7, 2013 - 11:18am
Claire, one of the frequent participants in our dot-Commonweal conversations, teaches catechism in France to eighth-graders, 13 or 14 years old. The other day I sent her a link to a website that specializes in catechesis. She was unimpressed by it and its materials, and, with her permission, I pass on her remarks in the hope that they might prompt a general reflection.
I've read a few of the texts and their proposals do not at all match the needs of my kids.Those texts emphasize the spiritual, experiential and community aspects, but that's what the Mass (in particular) is for. I try to prepare them so they can get more out of the Mass, but I cannot substitute for it, and I don't want to.Those texts downplay knowledge, but my youth are plagued by ignorance.When last month they had confession (for the first time in several years for most of them), the preparation consisted in giving them a long list of possible actions and asking them to think about whether each was good or bad, sinful or not; and in giving them a print-out of the words to be said by them and said by the priest, like a script of the event. But the words were not really explained and the sacramental aspect not mentioned, so, although they went to confession, they had the experience but not the understanding of what they did. That's ignorance.When we studied the Creed, I asked them: 'When at Mass we read the words "and was made man", sometimes at that point the people in the assembly do something. What is it?', and the only ones who had an answer offered: "Yes, at that point, we beat our chest." That's ignorance, too.The last but one session, I asked them what mission Jesus had given to his disciples. The more knowledgeable kids answered: "To announce the Good News". I asked: "And what is the Good News?" - Nobody knew, nobody could suggest an answer, even a wrong answer! That's profound ignorance.So all those texts from that website, with their insistence that the catechist is not a teacher, that the dynamics are different, that there are no lessons to be memorized by the children, that catechism has completely changed and is no longer about teaching facts and doctrines, those texts do not convince me. I have many uncertainties about exactly what to teach and how best to teach it, but not about whether to teach.
Commenting Guidelines
Kathy's list is important because it reflects an age-appropriate evolution from stories and images when a child does not have deep verbal skills but thinks in terms of pictures, to rote memorization of the most important bits of terminology that form the basis of the "Catholic identity" when verbal and writing skills have improved, but reflective thinking is not yet there, and so on. If our pedagogy, both in content and approach, is not congruent with the developmental level of our children, it's all a frustrating waste of time for everyone.I consider myself to have been very blessed. I was in early grade school during Vatican II and was in high school and college during the first stages of its implementation. I learned a Baltimore catechism approach until fourth grade (that 6-10 golden age of Kathy), and in high school and college read extensively from the documents of Vatican II. That the pedagogical approaches and content evolved as I was maturing was fortuitous but probably helped to keep me in the church.Gerelyn: Here are the things from your list I consider less than essential1) Attributes and marks of the church - had to look them up when I was taking a theology class last year. I really don't remember exactly what they are, in terms of being able to spit them back.2) Distinctions between gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit - missed that list in grade school, still don't know it without looking it up, and manage to do OK.3) Indulgences.They wouldn't make it on my list of catechetical musts, at least not in terms of fine-tuned definitions. For me, the Baltimore catechism approach was flawed because it made every bit of content seem to be as important as every other bit.
Theresa --You mean that not all pets are saved??? That means that Minnie Cat, my hellacious last one . . . (Sob! Dear Lord, have mercy on my Minnie!!) (I wonder what St. Thomas says.) (Or, better, St. Francis.)
Ann Olivier says that for Benedict, doubt is part of the journey towards God. She adds, In my experience young people as well as old ones suffer crises of faith.Jim McCrea cites Merton: Faith is not the suppression of doubt. It is the overcoming of doubt, and you overcome doubt by going through it.It appears they have company in high places. Todays NCR tells of a sister who greeted Pope Francis after hed given a talk to a group of women religious:
[She] told him she had been experiencing "a crisis of faith in the church" but had experienced a revival since his election as pontiff."He told me, 'Don't worry, I am twice a month in crisis.' "
Jesus already gave us the means to have a common understanding of the faith, something that allows us to say that we are ONE, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. And He also gave us the assurance that this means to a common understanding would be reliable and trustworthy.It is called the Magisterium, guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit.That apparently so many people reject the Magisterium does not mean that there is not a single deposit of faith, a single common understanding of the faith. There is for anyone who will be accept it.
Wow, Gene! That's the best news I've heard yet -- for the Church, that is, if not for gentle Francis. We must all say three Hail Marys a day for him. (That's what he asked for.)
Hi, Juliana:Agree that it is no longer necessary to emphasize indulgences, but in days of yore, all the prayers in our prayerbooks had the indulgences beneath them. My faves were the ones that gave Seven Years and Seven Quarantines.Strange how dismissive (resentful?) some Catholics of today are of the old books that formed generations of Catholics. For 80+ years the Baltimore Catechisms were used in parochial schools. I was lucky to have Benedictine teachers, because they did not make "every bit of content seem to be as important as every other bit." They drilled us on the important parts. (I remember how hard the Confirmation questions were.) But they moved quickly through the less important parts. Same thing in Bible History. They didn't come out and say that Noah's Ark was a myth, but the way they told the story made it clear that it was less historical than King David, e.g. They gave us a good foundation. We learned a lot of prayers, a lot of Gregorian chant, and a lot about the saints from them. I think the problems raised in this thread will never be solved. If parents do not provide a religious environment, no weekend catechist can fill the gap. Some things that my classmates and I took for granted 60 years ago: Catholic magazines coming to the house; Catholic periodicals, pamphlets, booklets, sold in the church vestibule; parish missions preached by visiting priests; processions; hymns that everyone could sing without cringing; etc., etc.
Claire, my idea certainly needs to be discussed in more detail, but perhaps it wouldn't be offered every week. In our program, we have sessions every other week and on the 'off' week, we send home online work that we create for them. It takes about an hour to complete and is considered as a class. They can do it all online and submit it back to us electronically. We include a lot of media, technology and keynote presentations. Our culture certainly knows how to get our kid's attention, we need to be as 'smart'.In terms of what to teach, etc. If our programs are more centralized, we can coordinate our curricula. As it is now, at least in our area, parishes are independent and programs are all different in terms of class times, text books, class frequency, etc. These are just some thoughts that I have, really just hoping to open a discussion that goes beyond text books...
"It is called the Magisterium, guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit."Bender --How can you possibly say that when you know that the Holy Spirit DOES tolerate error in the magisterium? We KKNOW this because we know that the Church has changed some teachings. I'm sorry, Bender, but fundamentalist assumptions such as yours give real scandal to the young people and make them distrust all of us old people, including their religion teachers in high school and college.Catechists --What do you all teach the kids about actual changes in the magisterium? Do they ask about the changes?
Hmmm. I think Kathy's list is important because it reflects an age appropriate evolution into an adult understanding of pictures and music. Kids can appreciate imagery, but that is just the basis for an adult understanding it, not the fulfillment of it. Spend a few weeks in the church explaining why there are windows, what they mean, how it was blessed, etc. If the faithful keep silent, the stones themselves will cry out.Find other examples of faith embodied. Why is Good News a hard question? If someone comes in and says your parents have died,is that Good News? "War" is not good news, unless you are a Jew being sent to the gas chambers, a native being brutalized. Then War is good news, kind of. But you can learn to recognize, discern, what is good in life.Saints are a great idea. Who doesn't want to hear about St Christina's aversion to her smelly neighbors? Or should that be "Who does..." I suppose it could be a good way to talk about our aversion to the habits of the people in the church, and our efforts to live with them.The answer is our own faith, expressed through whatever materials we use. Our own faith that the Eucharist is symbolic, no matter what others say, and so much more. Meet 'students' where they are, with love and hope, and faith will be learned.
Bender --Francis made some very interesting statements today about what the Holy Spirit guides us to: Jesus Bergoglio continued tells us in today's Gospel: When He shall come, the Spirit of truth shall guide you into all the truth. Paul does not say to the Athenians: This is the encyclopaedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth. No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopaedia. The truth is an encounter - it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth. No one owns the truth. We receive the truth when we meet [it].vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/
"It is called the Magisterium, guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit."The problem is that a lot of Catholics set themselves up as their own Magisterium these days, especially conservatives.The teaching office of the Church may well be protected from error. But who's in it? Bishops and a CDF that lack reading comprehension? Bishops and theologians aren't given magical powers. They actually have to cooperate with God and with grace on this one.People reject the Magisterium largely not because they dislike the answers, but because they find the lived witness of the leaders lacks credibility.
Has anyone mentioned building a sense of community? I would not recommend my son's Catholic grade school to anyone for many reasons, but here's something they did right: The kids met en masse each morning and were invited to post their intentions on a big sheet of paper in the hall. Then everyone prayed a decade for the intentions listed there. It fostered a sense of concern for others ... and the touching thing about it was that even among little children, most of the intentions were for other people. Kids often want to help, and that was channeled into learning prayers. The principal and priest also learned a lot about the kids from looking at their intentions, and religious discussions were often tailored around that. It also was a constant reminder to the children that everyone carries around that burden of worry, and that helped build empathy.Fostering a sense of community and service to others can nourish one's faith. A cold and distant parish can stunt it. There's a reason the happy-clappies are outstripping membership in mainstream denominations ...
Is there anyone lurking here who is LDS or former LDS? If so, will you opine on the success/failure of Institutes of Religion in imparting the LDS faith to their children?I think that is a model worth investigating by the RCC.
I think there are a series of instructional levels for children: "Jesus loves me, that I know .. for the bible tells me so.""What a friend we have in Jesus.""Blessed Assurance, Jesus is mine."And the CCC level.Without some level of success in the early stages, the CCC level will be the point of intellectual and emotional turnoff for 99% of Catholics, irrespective of age.By the same token, to never get to a level comparable to the CCC level will keep one at the Catholic child level at which so many people seem to be stalled.The final stage of life is also dangerous. It can become "to hell with it all" for many people.
Stephen Colbert just had on the producer of the new Gatsby movie. They discussed how the popularity of the book has gone up and down, or, rather, down and up. It seems that it does interest high school kids (not least because it's short :-) Maybe a lesson for catechists to learn is that the average kid can be reached by discussing really serious literature. I mean that adult stories discussed on an adult or near-adult level seems a surefire way to grab them. Great movies, too, I suspect. In the old days, when Catholic kids went to Catholic schools, 5 English classes per week provided time for such discussions. I suspect that without more time with the kids the catechists can't do a thorough job. A great remedial English teacher I know tells me that kids don't retain a subject unless they get to talk about it. I'm quite sure that's quite true of philosophy classes, and I'm convinced it's true of theology ones also. Unless you'r Michael Sandel, of course. Maybe the catechists should ask him how he get 1,000 kids in one class hooked on philosophy in classes with little opportunity for feed-back from them. (I'm serious.) He's doing something extraordinarily right.Religion classes for public school kids are only once a week. How can they possibly have the time to talk thoroughly about the material? I suppose that part of the solution is somehow to make Catholic schools affordable for all. Vouchers anyone? But then Catholic school instruction will have to improve too.
What do you all make of Newman's distinction between difficulties and doubt:
I am far of course from denying that every article of the Christian Creed, whether as held by Catholics or by Protestants, is beset with intellectual difficulties; and it is simple fact, that, for myself, I cannot answer those difficulties. Many persons are very sensitive {239} of the difficulties of Religion; I am as sensitive of them as any one; but I have never been able to see a connexion between apprehending those difficulties, however keenly, and multiplying them to any extent, and on the other hand doubting the doctrines to which they are attached. Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate. There of course may be difficulties in the evidence; but I am speaking of difficulties intrinsic to the doctrines themselves, or to their relations with each other. A man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, of which the answer is or is not given to him, without doubting that it admits of an answer, or that a certain particular answer is the true one. Of all points of faith, the being of a God is, to my own apprehension, encompassed with most difficulty, and yet borne in upon our minds with most power.
His last point is perhaps elucidated when, a few pages later in the Apologia, he says that "the being of a God ... is as certain to me as the certainty of my own existence, though when I try to put the grounds of that certainty into logical shape I find a difficulty in doing so in mood and figure to my satisfaction.).
Jim: so what do you suggest doing when you have teenagers of which at least half do not have any sense that Jesus loves them?Ann: since there is so little time, I think that it is more important to, first, show the youth that there is more to faith than what they know of it, second, give them a desire to learn more, andthird, give them some tools to learn more in other ways (outside catechism.) The second reading of the feast of the Ascension (He 9: 24-28; 10: 19-23) is a good example of a text that requires study. I would be happy if I could simply shift attitudes from "This is meaningless" to "I don't understand anything" to "I wish I understood what that means" to "I know what I need to do to understand this better".
In the same way that suffering is necessary to sympathize with other people's sufferings, I wonder if doubts do not help bring us closer to those who do not believe, and make us better evangelizers. I wish I had more doubts, if only it could help me reach out to my children. They and I could journey together towards conversion.More selfishly, I think of doubts or crises of faith as ways to progress in our faith, so I worry about lack of doubts for that reason. Then I also vaguely worry about the responsibilities attached to faith. If faith is a gift, then surely one is supposed to do something with it...That core, seemingly unshakable sense that God IS, what is it, really? If it is impervious to all the difficulties that ought to weaken it, then how do we know that it is not an empty shell, a mere psychological construct; and if it rests on no solid rational foundation, then how do we know that it will still be here tomorrow? We don't know it, and yet, even that realization changes nothing. (Just saw the part saying the being of a God is as certain to me as the certainty of my own existence" before hitting "submit". Exactly!)
the being of a God is as certain to me as the certainty of my own existence, though when I try to put the grounds of that certainty into logical shape I find a difficulty in doing so in mood and figure to my satisfaction.)."I think that's a pretty common idea. I think the reason God defies "logical shape" is because, while we can sense God's presence, that presence transcends our ability to describe it. Maybe that's God's way of preventing our putting God in a neat little box. (Something I learned from my old Unitarian upbringing that still makes sense to me.)St. Julian of Norwich distilled, for me anyway, the importance of God's presence into three simple but profound ideas that she'd seen in a hazelnut (the crux of the biscuit for her): "God made us, God loves us, God protects us." In my view, the best "proof" of the existence of God is God's presence is the saints, that unbroken line of the Holy Spirit. Where the Church often seems bent on restricting human behavior amongst Catholics (for good and ill), the Holy Spirit seems to blow the other way, offering what seems like a random gift of grace to some of the most embarrassing types of people and raising them to the community of saints. If you want to teach kids the "rules" of the Church, it might be useful to teach them about the saints who struggled with them or who sometimes ran afoul of the Church's hierarchy.
Unless parents and children are consistently present at weekend mass, some of the major feasts and devotions, and addressed at their own level by those who preach, their religious formation will be simply haphazard and weak. We have so many who are never at mass with their families, who only infrequently attend faith formation classes, and parents themselves with incredibly weak understanding that the catechist's role is almost an impossible dream. Thus religious faith has no priority in their lives and no interest is developed in participating, even for grandma's sake!
Newman's teen-age evangelical conversion to committed Christianity he described as "a great change of thought" when "I fell under the influence of a definite Creed, and received into my intellect impressions of dogma, which, through God's mercy, have never been effaced or obscured." The conversion, he went on to say, enabled him to "rest in the thought of two and two only absolute and luminously self-evident beings, myself and my Creator."
Newmans teen-age evangelical conversion to committed Christianity he described as a great change of thought when I fell under the influence of a definite Creed, and received into my intellect impressions of dogma, which, through Gods mercy, have never been effaced or obscured.I don't even know what that means. I would never show it to a teenager struggling with the faith.
Jean: Which part of it don't you understand? I could see myself giving Newman's Apologia to a teenager struggling with faith, along with other accounts of the struggle of faith, of course.
"I fell under the influence of a definite Creed, and received into my intellect impressions of dogma, which, through Gods mercy, have never been effaced or obscured."This part. It's irritatingly airy-fairy; sounds good until you try to figure out what he means.What does it mean to "fall under the influence"? What does he mean by a "defininte creed"? Is there some sort of "Indefinite creed" he was exposed to earlier"? From whom did he "receive into his intellect impressions of dogma"? I presume he means the Holy Spirit? Why not say that? What were those impressions? How does he know they're the correct/orthodox ones? "Effaced or obscured" strikes me as redundant. I would not be able to present this to teenagers, tied up as they are in the physical and concrete. But, then, that, among many other reasons, is why I'm not a catechist. You and others here would doubtless do better than me.
"Jim: so what do you suggest doing when you have teenagers of which at least half do not have any sense that Jesus loves them?"Claire ... that is the bazillion euro question. I have no children and wouldn't begin to know how to deal with teenagers, outside of get out of the room ASAP.I fell under the influence of a definite Creed, and received into my intellect impressions of dogma, which, through Gods mercy, have never been effaced or obscured is about as cold a statement of faith that I have read.
Ann: "Catechists What do you all teach the kids about actual changes in the magisterium?"I can tell you what I say to my class, something along the following lines: "We learn about God from Scripture. Over time, Christians are developing a better and better understanding. It's like constructing a theory in science. Our understanding is rough and needs to be refined. That happens gradually. We call that Tradition. We build on Scripture and Tradition. Tradition is important so that each generation can progress instead of always starting from scratch. Because future developments are based on Tradition, the church is very slow and careful before adding anything onto Tradition, to try to prevent mistakes. It only happens when most people, most bishops, and the pope, are in near-unanimous agreement about something: then it's a sign that, most likely, the Holy Spirit is inspiring us. Still, sometimes some statements are off, but then at some point it becomes clear and later generations correct them. We make progress together." The most important thing, in my opinion, is that I subscribe to what I teach. I try my best to fit the catechism, but that comes second. I am sure that my credibility depends on my conviction.
Jean: It's funny, but I find the quote I gave quite concrete and not at all "airy-fairy". It's not the full story--it appears very near the beginning of his lengthy "History of my Religious Opinions," the rest of which could be considered in some respects to explicate this early experience, never forgotten and recalled with gratitude by Newman seventy-five years later. If I were to make use of this classic of religious autobiography in a class (even for struggling teen-agers), I'd make pedagogical use of many of the questions you ask.What does he mean by a definite creed? I think he means the classical Christian dogmatic creed, as distinct from the kind of broad indefinite Christianity practiced in his family. I agree that he probably would say that it was the Holy Spirit that impressed the great dogmas on his intellect--Trinity, Incarnation, Atonement, but don't believe he needed to say that here. "What were those impressions?" He explains several of them in the next pages. Think of these sentences as topic sentences.I don't think "efface" and "obscure" mean the same thing.One of the great themes of Newman's thought, from his evangelical to his high-Anglican to his Catholic periods, is the need to make one's faith real--to "realize" it in that sense. In his , it appears as the distinction between "notional" and "real" assent.
Claire, what a great answer! Father, I appreciate the response, and I would probably enjoy learning about Newman if you were teaching catechism at the local parish. I also apologize for meddling in this conversation more than I should. I would be a poor catechist, and I should shut up about the short-comings of those who are trying their best to provide instruction.
Claire --Thanks for your response. If I had teen-agers I'd be happy to entrust them to you for catechism :-) Sadly, I doubt that the trad catechists' answers are anything like that, but I'd like to hear from them too. As I see it this is a perennial question in the Church, at least since the Enlightenment. As Jeanne Follman points out in her book "When the Enlightenment Hit the Neighborhoods" these problems have become endemic in our culture. Kids are encouraged by the culture to be skeptics.
Jean: I never think of you as "meddling" in any conversation. I always appreciate what you have to say and agree with you many more times than not.
Thanks Jean and Ann!In a different direction, to recap one striking theme from the comments on this thread:Mike: "Unless the catechists role is almost an impossible dream."Ann: "How can [religious classes] possibly have the time to talk thoroughly about the material?"Jim: "Without , the CCC level will be the point of intellectual and emotional turnoff for 99% of Catholics"Gerelyn: "I think the problems raised in this thread will never be solved. If , no weekend catechist can fill the gap."Ann: "Until , the young will either , or, more likely, they will drift away from the Church."Bernard: "Could it be that the ambient culture is such that unless there will be little chance of success?"I guess the majority sentiment is: focus on the children who come from families who take their faith seriously, make a mile-long wish-list for their religious education, and give up on the other children.
Jesus said, Suffer the little children to come unto me . . . And embracing them, and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them.Nothing about theology. Nothing about sin. Nothing about dogma. Nothing about faith. Nothing about ignorance (which you accuse them or). Nothing about Mass attendance. Hugs. Blessings. Bread. Wine. (My suggestion: show them "Marcelino Pan y Vino" instead of reading Cardinal Newman to them.)
JAK --ISTM that Newman's basic distinctions here are between 1) the purportedly objective facts spoken of in revelation, 2) apparent logical conflicts among the revealed teachings, and 3) our subjective reaction (doubt) to those teachings/inconsistencies. Does the inconsistency of the facts *as presented by the teachings* imply that all of the teachings are false and, therefore, *must* be doubted? I think not. But Newman doesn't get into how than could be. (I think that semantic problems are a lot of what is problematic, though maybe not all. He doesn't get into how he handles the doubts, at least not here, except for suggesting that the counter-evidence against what causes his doubts defeats the doubts. Says he, "Of all points of faith, the being of a God is, to my own apprehension, encompassed with most difficulty, and yet borne in upon our minds with most power." Hmm. The mere concept of God ("apprehension") is so powerful (regardless of its inconsistencies) that it defeats his doubt! This seems to me to be saying that the counter-evidence defeats only the *doubts* -- he does not say that the counter-evidence defeats the inconsistency of the teachings. I find this a very unsatisfactory solution.
Gerelyn --Given my experience teaching philosophy, I think you underestimate the seriousness of ordinary people about the most important questions of life, at least when people are young. Unfortunately, however, we are inclined to seek easy answers to the questions, and the advertising and entertainment industries and many of our artists encourage the notion that it is actually possible to live easy, always pleasant, self-centered and happy lives. Ours is a hedonistic culture. But the widespread interest in Gatsby the last few years is perhaps showing that even young Americans have caught on: hedonism might not make you happy for long. So it's back to the hard questions and answers, and Sandel regularly has 1,000 students in his Justice class in which he tells them what Plato and the other philosophers had to say about it. Hmmm. I hope that's what's happening.
Hugs - Gerelyn, they're 13 years old, not 3 years old. Eeek! they would say; and their parents would wonder what's wrong with me.
Adolescents are a difficult group to teach because they are adolescents. Their concerns center around establishing an independent identity, a meaning for themselves that allows them to relate to others. IOW they are going their own ways and the object is to travel with them, perhaps even to get them to travel together with the others in the room. No t easy.Newman is an interesting case of this. Evangelical practice in the US at the time centered on adolescent conversion in the midst of the strum und drang of growing up. It looked back to the Great Awakenings and subsequent revivalism, nourishing an emotional commitment made at a particular moment in a person's life. Newman probably experienced something like this. He did not remain mired at that level, but advanced through many subsequent changes, but remained committed to that initial experience as the basis for spiritual and intellectual growth even as he left behind the theology and practice that had formed him.Trust in God. If God does not build the house, the laborers labor in vain. God has brought these people together to learn from you, so teach them what you know and believe. But ultimately it is God who will continue to walk with them and guide them. They may go through many wrenching changes in their lives, like Newman, yet remain faithful in ways you cannot predict. An example of faithful engagement with difficulties may be what they need.
Ann: You wrote: "ISTM that Newmans basic distinctions here are between 1) the purportedly objective facts spoken of in revelation, 2) apparent logical conflicts among the revealed teachings, and 3) our subjective reaction (doubt) to those teachings/inconsistencies."I find this puzzling. In the snippet I cited above, the basic distinction is between "doubt" and "difficulty," which you don't mention at all. In fact, "difficulty" doesn't appear in your post. Is it that you don't think there is a distinction between the two?You have often mentioned and praised the medieval practice of the quaestio, which was often prompted by the apparent conflict between or among recognized authorities, that is, the Bible and the Fathers, so that to a question one authority would give a Yes answer and another a No answer. This was their way of dealing with difficulties, because they knew that logical or metaphysical contradictions were not tolerable. (As you note: semantic clarifications went a long way toward resolving the difficulties.) Convinced of the truth and wisdom of the faith, they sought to address the inconsistencies ("difficulties") lest they eventually become "doubts". I think Newman was after something similar in his distinction.
Hugs Gerelyn, theyre 13 years old, not 3 years old. Eeek! they would say; and their parents would wonder whats wrong with me.Maybe bises would be better.
Claire: "The last but one session, I asked them what mission Jesus had given to his disciples. The more knowledgeable kids answered: To announce the Good News. I asked: And what is the Good News? Nobody knew, nobody could suggest an answer, even a wrong answer! Thats profound ignorance". Cupcake: "The lack of an answer to the What is the Good News question is the one that worries me the most. Thats the core of Christianity".I have read the whole of this correspondence. I have no idea what the answer is. I'm not sure I could suggest even a wrong one. Only one other person even refers back to this. Can anybody articulate it to me in a few simple sentences, especially if it is 'the core of Christianity"? I don't know what it meant at the time. I certainly don't know what it means in a news-saturated world. In Britain in some surveys of religious education, commonly repeated statements on the negative side are along the lines of "The same old stuff over and over again"; "it's like eating stale bread". I feel that 'Good News' has become such 'taken-for granted' twinning of words in the Christian-religious context that it no longer strikes most adult believers' as 'odd' - but until you hear the 'oddness' how will you communicate? I have heard Michael Sandel broadcast several times here on programmes I should enjoy - but what strikes me is how he controls the questions. In the Philosophy for Children movement that began in the States was not the whole point that the children/pupils/students ask the questions - which means they will ask the ones salient to themselves and the discuss them, not simply be the ones asked the questions adults think are right and then have to answer them - e.g. "What is the Good News" [and they can hear that capital G and the capital N and they know they have failed]? [Sorry I lost all control of grammar and punctuation there]. there is nothing worse than just knowing 'teacher's right answer' if you know that actually you do not know what everybody seems to just take for granted as being obvious.
Lorna, I did not have a set answer in mind. I then asked the same question under other forms: "What does it mean to be Christian?", "What difference does it make that Jesus, the son of God, was crucified, died, and resurrected?". It's not that surprising that they can't articulate it, but it would be good if at least some of them could say something, anything at all. The lack of answers signals that no one has ever discussed it with them. At this point it's a series of events with no meaning attached to it. So we're getting to the end of their years of religious education, but have not yet touched upon something that really seems rather central, doesn't it? I would not have been able to answer at their age either, after five years of catechism spent coloring and discussing ethics. But it makes one wonder if we couldn't just do without catechism altogether.
I suspect that in the present climate, catechists would not be encouraged to give their students a hug. One of my sisters was a kindergarten teacher in a public school, and in her later years at that work, she and the other teachers were forbidden to hug their children, even when, in her view, that was often what they most needed at a moment of sadness or fear.
There is a difference between doubt and difficult. However Newman's example of the difficulty of solving a math problem or getting a certain answer or the so-called right answer, misses an important fact. Within the Church there are profound philosophical and theological disagreements over certain doctrines. One school of theologians, and the Magisterium, will use various methods, principles and tradition to justify one outcome claimed to be the truth. Another school of theologians, the majority, will use the same sources and reach a different ethical conclusion. In many cases, there is real moral dilemma and doubt about the so-called moral truth unless you believe that every teaching of the magisterium is the absolute moral truth. For informed lay adults, there is both doubt and difficulty with respect to certain teachings. I think Mark Logsdon made a great point. Teenagers and young adults (as well as older ones) want to know "what does this teaching mean to me?" There are real issues that these Catholics want answers to and some of the answers are in tension with human experience, virtue and their informed, or not-so-informed, consciences. The Church, in Catechesis, rarely deal with these real contemporary problems. Consider a few of the many arguments I have heard among young adults: > If a episcopal married priest can be accepted into the RCC, then celibacy for RCC priests should be voluntary. > If the husband of a young married couple committed adultery (more than once) and got his recent girlfriend pregnant, why is it immoral for the innocent female spouse to divorce and remarry? Why should she be confined to a celibate and so-called single life until the husband dies? Did not Jesus in Matt say that divorce was permitted for unchastity (e.g., with adultery as its most evil form)?> Why is it immoral for a young married spouse with existing children whose life is threatened with certainty by another pregnancy to safeguard her life by the most prudent and effective method of sterilization? > Why do many priests have no problem with same-sex civil unions subject to the same faithfulness and obligations of heterosexual couples, while the official magisterium condemns such unions?
Some quotes on faith and doubt at http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/faithquotes.htmThis weekend I asked my 10-year-old niece: "Let me try a test on you. The apostles, and now Christians in general, are sent to announce the Good News. What is the Good News?" She looked at me as though I were stupid and answered: "Well, the Good News is that Jesus is resurrected, and he lives within us. Duh!"
The debate about faith and reason, grace and human liberty has been going on for centuries. Here are some further issues for reflection about doubt and difficulty as they pertain to aspects of our faith.As Catholics are we called to accept every Church teaching, moral and the fundamental tenets of our faith? It is often said that faith without reason is blind, and reason without faith denies the transcendental. Don't we need both? If not, consider what type of world we would have if we blindly accepted the teachings on slavery, religious freedom and the torture of heretics. If grace is a gift from God that moves the person to do good works, is it necessary that the person ask God for Grace in order that Grace be given and good works performed? Is Grace given to each of us as a gratuitous gift based on what we need for our salvation or is it given based on our spiritual state? If we cannot earn Grace by any good works, how does the Church grant it to us in the form of indulgences where after certain works are performed we gain either a plenary indulgence and can enter heaven immediately if we are in the state of Grace, or a partial indulgence for the temporary punishment due to sin? On the other hand, if we enter heaven only by the Grace and Mercy of God because no good works can earn us heaven, exactly what is the role of Grace, good works and indulgences? I do not want to sound controversial or drift far from this subject, because my point is that doubting is one possible way that the Spirit of God teaches. Is there not truth in both agreement and legitimate disagreement? Certainly, history has demonstrated that our understanding of truth has changed as we have gained better knowledge in the sciences, theology, philosophy, the Scriptures, human experience, the world, et al. Are those that accept all Church teachings better Catholics and more pleasing to God than those that disagree (e.g., have a serious doubt of an informed conscience) with some teachings for good philosophical and theological reasons? Clearly, these are complex subjects and questions and there are no magic bullets here that can function as the right solution or course of action in every case.To come full circle, we need better catechesis to deal with real issues that plague us and frequently cause us moral conflict and suffering.
JAK -Am having computer problems so I can't reply to you in detail. Will just say that my 1) and 2) above refer to Newman's "difficulties", and 3) concerns "doubts". Doubts being subjuective they cannot "turn into" what is objective (1). Neither can thoughts about the objective (2) turn into doubts, because a doubt would be the negation of those thoughts or at least a judgment that a thought might not be true.Or maybe "doubt" is ambiguous.
Ann: As my Webster's points out, "doubt" can also have an objective meaning, referring to the object which causes the subjective state. Similarly, when we are talking about intellectual matters, I can experience difficulty in understanding something, and that is subjective--in fact, aren't all intellectual difficulties subjective? What would be an intellectual difficulty that didn't reside in someone's mind?When physicists say that light sometimes seems to move in a wave and sometimes as particles, they are presenting something difficult to understand (and impossible to imagine), but they don't seem to be in any doubt about the data that have given rise to the notion of the "wavicle."One can be without doubt that God is both omnipotent and all-good but have a great deal of difficulty in understanding the problem of evil; the problem (difficulty) arises, however, only for those who believe in both the omni-potence and omni-benevolence of God. Another point: Faith is not sight, and because it is not, it gives rise to hosts of questions (see the Summa theologica), but, as in the case of Aquinas, the questions arise out of the difficulty of reconciling authorities and beliefs without these difficulties arising out of doubt. Consider the doctrines that God is both One and Three.
The argument about authority in terms of the morality of voluntary human activity has been going in serious debate since Humanae Vitae was published in 1968. Since Vertitatis Spendor (VS) was published in 1993 the assertion by 'authority' has also been disputed especially over various moral methods and whether the proximate end of a deliberate decision involving the choice of an voluntary human action determines its moral species. Consider the fact that S.T. I-II, q. 18. 6 that VS 78 refers to does not mention a "proximate end". ST 18.6 does refer to ST I-II, q. 1, a. 3., but this text (in particular ad. 3) describes the proximate end as the natural end, not the moral end, as in the physical, material voluntary human act "to kill a man". It is the agent's intention-to-end to either safeguard justice or to satisfy anger that determines this act's moral species. The natural end, or proximate end, of the physical act 'to kill a man' is the death of the person, but this only determines the act's natural species. It is these moral issues that are at the center of theological dispute and not issues such as whether God is but One and Three. Therefore, doubt is real and part of our human nature. We need to guided by prayer, give respect and priority to Church teachings, follow the advice of our spiritual advisors, educate oneself comprehensively about the subject in question, and follow our informed conscience, among other things before we should make a judgment that is in tension with the Magisterium. Nevertheless, one is not right merely because one accepts all and every Church teaching, nor should we be naive to believe that an individual conscience cannot err. These are complex issues and doubt and difficulty are part of our moral decision-making process. While there may be some truth in most arguments and decisions of authority, one must never go against their informed conscience. This is not an easy concept to fully understand, but this is also why better catechesis is necessary, as well as further dialogue about important matters.
I often refer back to two usually overlooked purveyors of wisdom and truth when I ponder either the difficult or the doubtful:"Cope, don't mope." Bl. Mechtilde of Ubaldigor"Sometime I like to put sands of doubt into the oyster of my faith." Brother Cadfael
Mr. Barberi: You write: "It is these moral issues that are at the center of theological dispute and not issues such as whether God is but [both?] One and Three."For those mainly interested in moral issues, moral issues are at the center of theological dispute; for others, not so much. For example, anyone who wants to engage in serious theological conversation with members of other religions, most especially Muslims, will find whether God is both One and Three a question quite near the center of theological dispute.If I were to urge Newman's distinction between difficulties and doubt in the area of moral theology, I would ask whether a Christian moral theologian has any principles that in fact he does not doubt even though many difficulties may attend them. Of course, anyone who thinks that any difficulty and its attendant is equivalent to doubt is simply denying Newman's distinction, which, of course, he is quite free to do. But for myself, I think there is something to the distinction.
Fr. Komonchak,I never implied that there was no distinction between doubt and difficulty. As for my comments they were directly focused on "catechesis" as well as doubt and difficulty. Perhaps I misread your article but it seemed to me that catechesis was focused on teaching the young and not-so-young Catholics about the Catholic religion. Thus, for most Catholics whether God is both One and Three is not an really an of issue of serious doubt. When it comes to what is needed in catechesis, your topic, we need more than prohibitions and negative injunctions and memorization of things, as many on this blog have already mentioned. As to your question to moral theologians, many have doubts about a great many things but the level of doubt is the issue. When we have a majority of theologians that have profound doubt about certain doctrines and teachings, then we need a better moral theory that all Catholics can understand and embrace instead of non-reception. This applies to catechesis as well since catechesis reflects these teachings. The list of disputed teachings is long and I have already mentioned a few of them.As for Muslims and non-Catholic Christians there continues to be disputed issues that have not be resolved for centuries. Frankly, I don't know if your article was talking about such issues but I agree with your point, as you seem to agree with mine.
About the Author
Rev. Joseph A. Komonchak, professor emeritus of the School of Theology and Religious Studies at the Catholic University of America, is a retired priest of the Archdiocese of New York.


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The Jones County youth track athletes hauled home an armored truckload of gold medals from the Georgia Parks and Recreation state track meet last weekend in Carrollton.
Sixteen members of the team won state titles for Jones County, with eight of them finishing first in multiple events.
The 7-8 year old and 13-14 year old girls swept the 4-by-100 and 4-by-400 relay titles to lead the parade, and Alicia Thomas, who was on the 13-14 relay teams, also won the 400-meter dash to bring home a team-best three state titles.
It was almost enough to leave coach Valvin Hambrick speechless.
Well, not really.
"To have 16 kids who are state champs – the most we have had since the program started in 2007. It is incredible," Hambrick said.
The most previously for the team was nine, he said.
"At the beginning of the season, I told the parents this was going to be our most successful year yet. The theory became true with us producing 16 kids into state champions," Hambrick said.
For the full story, pick up a copy of this week's newspaper or subscribe to our e-Edition at http://ee.jcnews.com.


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- Willamette
- College of Law
- News
- Library
- 2012
- Dean Emeritus Symeon Symeonides honored by Greece's largest university
Dean Emeritus Symeon Symeonides honored by Greece's largest university
Symeon C. Symeonides, Alex L. Parks Distinguished Professor of Law and Dean Emeritus, recently was awarded the title of Doctor Honoris Causae of the Law Faculty by the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. Symeonides, who led Willamette University College of Law for 12 years until stepping down in 2011, attended the University of Thessaloniki as a law student, graduating summa cum laude and receiving degrees in public and private law.
The award is for lifetime achievement, given to individuals with exemplary accomplishments in their fields. Symeonides also has received two law degrees from Harvard Law School.
Active in law reform, Symeonides is spending the fall in Brussels helping the European Union (EU) in drafting new laws and reforming old ones.
Specifically, Symeonides presides over four different working groups consisting of representatives of the 27 Member States of the EU, which are drafting new EU laws on the following subjects:
• A Common European Sales Law;
• The Property Relations of Spouses;
• The Property Consequences of Registered Partnerships; and
• The Cross-Border Freezing of Bank Accounts.
Symeonides also presides over another working group that has completed the revision of the EU Law on Jurisdiction and Judgment Recognition in Civil and Commercial Cases. His mandate now is to act as a mediator to ensure that the three EU institutions (Parliament, Commission, and Council) will agree to the same text or amendments to it.
In addition, Symeonides represents the Presidency of the EU Council at the Hague Conference of Private International Law in negotiating a new international Convention on Choice of Law for International Contracts.
Symeonides will return to Willamette in the spring to teach private international law and international civil litigation and arbitration.


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West Ashley girls soccer coach Drew McNeely acknowledged that his squad's performance Monday night in the first round of the Class AAAA playoffs was not as polished as he would have liked.
But the 2-1 victory over visiting Fort Dorchester was enough to bring the Wildcats one step closer to their goal of a return trip to the Lower State championship game.
In order to meet that objective, West Ashley (13-6) must navigate a difficult path that continues Wednesday night at top-seeded Lexington, which beat Ridge View, 12-0, in other opening-round action.
"Of course, you're always happy with advancing," McNeely said. "But in terms of the way we played … we had our chances, certainly, we just didn't finish the ones we needed to. We're only going to get a few chances, and you've got to put those away."
Most of the Wildcats' opportunities resulted from superior flank play.
Mary Shirley was especially active on the left side, and it took less than nine minutes for her efforts to pay off. The sophomore raced down the sideline, cut inside and fired a shot that Patriots freshman goalkeeper Kaelen Harper could not handle.
Caitlyn Reilly equalized seven minutes later on a 20-yard free kick, but Shirley reclaimed the lead for West Ashley five minutes before halftime with her second goal of the contest, lacing a rebound into the roof of the net.
"We didn't come out as strong as we would have liked," said first-year Fort Dorchester coach Taryn Floyd, who attributed the slow start to the players' lack of confidence in themselves. "They get down on themselves real hard. I think that's because they have been told for so long that the Fort Dorchester soccer program does not compare to other programs."
With the help of Floyd, a Lowcountry native who was named the Lower State player of the year in 2003 as a senior at Summerville High, the Patriots made strides this season to overcome that perception. After losing three straight Region 8-AAAA games and five of six overall to open the campaign, Fort Dorchester rebounded to finish as the third seed and earn its first postseason berth since 2010. The Patriots finished the season with a 7-10 record.
West Ashley, the second seed from Region 7-AAAA, used its speed to create chances in the second half, but the lack of a finishing touch kept Fort Dorchester within striking distance. The Patriots' push for an equalizer late in the game resulted in a few tense moments for the Wildcat faithful, but ultimately McNeely's defensive corps was up to the challenge.
"I think we pushed the panic button late in the game," McNeely said. "(Fort Dorchester) played with a lot of intensity and it was a good first-round match. They're a much-improved program. (Floyd) has done a very good job with that team."
Both squads were forced to overcome unfortunate injury situations. The Patriots lost five players to injuries throughout the course of the season, including their first- and second-string goalkeepers. As a result, Harper was thrust into the starting netminder role after spending the first half of the season on junior varsity.
Meanwhile, the Wildcats were without a pair of co-captains — junior Caroline Cashion, who is out with a torn ACL, and senior Hannah Miller, who suffered an injury on May 1 against Wando.
West Ashley beat Fort Dorchester, 3-1, on April 25 in the teams' only regular season contest.
Goals: WA—Shirley 2. FD—Reilly 1. Records: West Ashley 13-6. Fort Dorchester 7-10. Next: West Ashley at Lexington Wednesday in the second round of the Class AAAA playoffs.
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There seem to be a few of us ex-mo's in the Nexus and it is good to share the particular intricacies of extracting oneself from Mormonism.
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COMMON BRAND NAME(S): Lodosyn
Carbidopa is used with levodopa or the combination levodopa/carbidopa to treat the symptoms of Parkinson's disease or Parkinson-like symptoms (e.g., shakiness, stiffness, difficulty moving). Carbidopa must be taken together with levodopa to be effective. Used alone, carbidopa has no effect on Parkinson's symptoms. It is used to improve the effect of levodopa and reduce some levodopa side effects (e.g., nausea, vomiting).
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Tell your doctor immediately if you notice worsening involuntary muscle movements/spasms, greatly increased eye blinking/twitching, or mental/mood changes (e.g., confusion, depression, hallucinations, thoughts of suicide). Your doctor may decide to lower your levodopa dose.
Dizziness, nausea, and vomiting may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, contact your doctor or pharmacist promptly.
Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medication because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.
Some people taking carbidopa have fallen asleep suddenly during their usual daily activities (such as talking on the phone, driving). In some cases, sleep occurred without any feelings of drowsiness beforehand. This sleep effect may occur anytime during treatment with carbidopa, including up to 1 year after starting the medication. If you experience increased sleepiness or fall asleep during the day, do not drive or take part in other possibly dangerous activities until you have discussed this effect with your doctor. Your risk of this sleep effect is increased by using alcohol or other medications that can make you drowsy. See also Precautions section.
Tell your doctor immediately if any of these unlikely but serious side effects occur: fainting, unusual strong urges (such as increased gambling, increased sexual urges).
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For males, in the very unlikely event you have a painful or prolonged erection (lasting more than 4 hours), stop using this drug and seek immediate medical attention or permanent problems could occur.
A very serious allergic reaction is unlikely, but seek immediate medical attention if it occurs. Symptoms of a serious allergic reaction include: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.
This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist.
In the US -
Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.
In Canada - Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to Health Canada at 1-866-234-2345.
Before taking this medication, tell your doctor or pharmacist if you are allergic to it; or if you have any other allergies. This product may contain inactive ingredients, which can cause allergic reactions or other problems. Talk to your pharmacist for more details.
Before using this medication, tell your doctor or pharmacist your medical history, especially of: breathing problems (e.g., asthma, emphysema), glaucoma, heart or blood vessel problems (e.g., arrhythmias, heart attack, angina), kidney disease, liver disease, mental/mood disorders (e.g., depression, schizophrenia), peptic ulcer, seizure, sleep disorder.
This drug may make you drowsy or dizzy or cause blurred vision. Do not drive, use machinery, or do any activity that requires alertness or clear vision until you are sure you can perform such activities safely. Limit alcoholic beverages. See also Side Effects section.
To minimize lightheadedness, get up slowly when rising from a sitting or lying position.
Before having surgery, tell your doctor or dentist that you are taking this medication.
This medication should be used only when clearly needed during pregnancy. Discuss the risks and benefits with your doctor.
It is unknown if this medication passes into breast milk. Consult your doctor before breast-feeding.
See also How to Use section.
Drug interactions may change how your medications work or increase your risk for serious side effects. This document does not contain all possible drug interactions. Keep a list of all the products you use (including prescription/nonprescription drugs and herbal products) and share it with your doctor and pharmacist. Do not start, stop, or change the dosage of any medicines without your doctor's approval.
Some products that may interact with this drug include: antipsychotic drugs (such as chlorpromazine, haloperidol, thioridazine), certain drugs to treat high blood pressure (such as methyldopa, reserpine), tetrabenazine.
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Priscilla Simon graduated summa cum laude with a bachelor of science in biology from USC Aiken on May 9. In her four years there, she did research on HIV and placed first, three years in a row for her research at the annual statewide Academy of Science meeting. Competing with all USC schools, she place second at Discovery Day for her research. In 2011-2012 she was named Biology Student of the Year and was a Megellan Scholar. For the 2012-2013 year, she was named Outstanding Female Scientist. She is a member of the Biological Honors Society (TriBeta) and served on leadership all four years for the Baptist College Ministries. She also graduated from the honors program. Priscilla is the daughter of Willie and Sue Simon.
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|59 posts found
SV seems to have taken things to yet another level in terms of bugs. Players are now starting to wonder if any feature of the game hasn't got a bug / is broken.
I honestly don't know how SV are gonna fix this. Could awakening be the nail in the coffin for MO?
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lol funny, how many time you going to say that it's RIP for MO. Nobody on this board gets to decide that.
"In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank
No one ever said it was going to be easy.
Have a nice day too raff!
"In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank
Originally posted by CroniteLore
-Game is over 2 years old mate- The whole "nobody said it would be easy" worked for 6 months to maybe a year...
If you really think MO is doing okay and will recover- More power to you I guess, but even many of the hardcore supporters are pretty pissed that this XPAC was delayed, no Patch bugfix etc in 8 months and NOW its bugs on top of bugs and (according to MANY on the Official Forums) essentially unplayable now.
I know, I know- Small team- Give em some time etc.
Times up. Everyone pretty much has agreed this was their last chance to fix the game- Everyone pretty much agrees thy did NOT fix the game. Time will tell, but the recent stock report tells a story as well and explains why this was rushed out the door (rushed LOL - even though it was "weeks not months" away back in April)
EDIT: In your opinion, hows the population? A week after this highly anticipated and delayed Xpac I would imagine its booming- Yet on the official forum people universally are claiming its pretty dead. http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/threads/population.77955/
So yeah, they may have gotten a quick month long bump in subs- But those people are not real happy right now and evidently not playing- Think those several returning Vets will keep their sub? Again, time will tell, But it looks pretty damn grim from where I am sitting.
Novice Member
Joined: 5/23/09
I'm more surprised at the fact that there are still people wanting the game to die off, for what reason? If it makes players happy which it does for some, why do you still hate on a game?
You post things to try and influence others to not look into a game, but why? Do you really believe that your opinion is all mighty and deserves to be heard, do you really feel attacking the low pop will give you gratification? I mean there are so many games failing right now but you have to choose MO?
You research into a game to see that is failing and waste your time in doing so, what is wrong with children now a days? Do you get a medal for following a game and flaming it for this long? Do you receive a unique avatar for if it does fail you were right? What are you getting out of this exactly, other then your time wasted and a possible "I was right"?
Novice Member
Joined: 6/05/09
Originally posted by yabooer
Pretty much everyone in these forums encourages anyone that doesnt mind much facing a frustrating gaming experience to go and check the trial and even come back here and share his/ her thoughts. That still doesnt change the fact that MO is what it is not that SV is one of the worst possible companies you might see around. And allow me to ask you a question: lets assume that you have being deceived several times by the same person and you have lost as a result time and money. Wont you raise a strong voice against that specific person so less people will be in your shoes in the future and being deceived by the same person?
Novice Member
Joined: 5/23/09
No I wouldn't because I take responsibility for my actions, I knew what game I was getting into when I played MO, I was in during closed, open, and launch. I saw the progress of the patches and the intervals between them, and their quality. I KNEW that it would be a longhaul that would take a couple of years to even get to a point where it would be amazing with minimal bugs.
I KNEW what to expect, and if I did write a post about it I would point out it's negatives, sure, but I would also point out it's positives. I would write a review of it, not just consistently bashing it because of how angry I was. The OP follows and posts on MO as if the SV team went to his house and raped and killed his parents.
Originally posted by yabooer
Dude, SV hides the Bug Tracker away from Public view, censors its Forum with an Iron Fist and admits to sending viral marketers here.
Anyhow, if you would like to discuss WHY some of us discuss MO (and SV's) FAILURE, please make a thread for it (it will be fun, I assure you) but lets not derail THIS THREAD. These Tactics of moving the conversation away from its intended purpouse are becoming tiresome. KK. Thanks.
EDIT: Funny thing is, as a supporter of MO you join this thread and attack the OP but dont give examples of anything which works as intended LOLOLOLOLOL (the point of this thread)
Originally posted by SaintPhilip
Who says time is up?
They just patched again...
"In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank
Originally posted by CroniteLore
Neaarly everyone who has ever played or tried this game out (according to their own reports) says "Times Up" and now even many fanboys are saying the same (read the official forum- although censored with an iron fist it isnt pretty)
So, quit derailing. WHAT IS WORKING AS INTENDED? There is already a thread about Patchs and the "fixes" are being posted before there even is a Patch to download - Use that thread to discuss patchs please...Oh and was yesterdays Patch working as intended? We heard ALL about what was fixed and 5 hours later the patch wasnt availible- And when it DID (finally) go live did it fix everything it claimed? Quick on the draw to claim things have been fixed prior to ANYONE having seen these fixes.
Advanced Member
Joined: 10/25/11
Wait, they broke the game even MORE than it was before? Is that even possible?
I just want to ask a few things at this point:
1) How on earth is this game still alive?
2) Why does this game STILL have fanboys?
Originally posted by CroniteLore
Its called logic.
They are losing money, they have worked months, to deliver, a broken bug ridden expansion, and according to their previous report, they were planning on achieving break even, which they did not.
Instead, they are losing subs, losing loads of money, and losing their players.
So I don't know if time is up, if you had read my original post, I didn't say time was up I asked to discuss if Awakening could be the nail in the coffin.
If you wish to see the world through pink glasses its ok, just don't say its the rest being overly negative. You're clearly in denial.
Time was up two years ago according to some people on this board.
Meduli is busy...
"In MO, even the haters are hardcore!" - ltank
Originally posted by CroniteLore
3 years ago : its beta !!!
2 years ago : its just been released !!!
1 year ago : Dawn is coming !!
a few months earlier : Awakening is coming !!
Now : ...game is still alive and its been 2 years !! ...
Your entire problem is you seem to be looking at MO as if being "alive" was actually something to brag about...
Novice Member
Joined: 11/06/10
the game will keep on living on life support for the time being i doubt it will end before the end of the year but i think its so far in a hole theres no light at the end of this journey anymore and it will only end in closure at some point. Impossible to dig out of.
factor in 3 months of just bug fixing and tweaking for awakening before any new content can even be started on and your look ing at at least 6 more months from now before any more content and i doubt players can last 6 months battling the bugs of awakening and still hold interest
i think players assumed awakening would be the light at the end of the tunnel but that tunnel just grew 6 months longer
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Advanced Member
Joined: 3/20/10
It's almost like the game is developed by a small indipendant studio, go figure.
People should quit arguing, repeated negative posting on the forums can be reported. There's nothing to be gained from the same individuals repeatedly posting the same thing over and over. This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them.
It's an obscene rational, in which some individuals think that they can one day point back and say "I told you so".
It's interesting that MO is still up and running under a subscription model, while big budget developers like Bioware convert their first attempt into a free to play MMO.
People are constantly lamenting how every MMO comes out looking just like the one that came out prior to it, and then you get a company like SV, with very few hands, and a fraction of the budget of mainstream studios, and a bunch of people want to jump on their every mistake as if they have the experience in building a game and should know better.
MO was never intended to be a mainstream MMO, it was never inteded to draw in masses of people; yet people behaive as if it's a regular studio with all the resources needed to make mainstram game that's supposed to appeal to a majority of gamers.
I come here to see what's going on with MO, instead most of what I find is thread after thread from the same few people posting the exact same thing over and over. It's old, tiresome, and rather pathetic when you see it's the same people that have been doing it sinse MO began two years ago. What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time?
Novice Member
Joined: 6/11/12
Originally posted by Uhwop
What kind of a person rages over a stupid video game for that length of time?
Weird, huh? Out of all games that truely suck, MO manages to suck so much and fuck so many people over, scamming them, insulting them, and disrespecting them in a way that makes them stick around just to warn others.
This must clearly be the fault of the players since the only constant is MO.. (I feel urged to point out the sarcasm at this point.)
"Old, tiresome, and rather pathetic" are postings like yours. If you don't want to discuss MO, good for you. You come here to see what's going on with MO? Hey, I've got a big surprise for you: You wouldn't know if these people weren't posting.
Originally posted by Uhwop
And btw you're making things up, like most people who come here to defend this disgrace of the MMO world. Henrik has ranted more than once about his megalomaniac views on MO's future glory and the size of its population, and he will do it again. In 4 years or 4 and a half, he sees MO "close to Eve, population wise." Source: sandboxer.org/?p=988
Also, nobody here pretends that SV is a regular dev studio like Blizzard or Bioware. Everyone knows that they're a joke and that's it. Only SV themselves struggle to realize that and continue to charge an AAA subscription price and 40€ from ever newcomer that gets fooled by their lies, hype and deceit.
Originally posted by Uhwop
This is the exact same thing that gets posted after every single magor and minor patch that SV puts out; there's really no reason to keep making them.
There's also no reason to keep making patches like Awakening. If you don't like this forum, .. don't read it? In the meanwhile I suspect everyone else will do what forums are for.
Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/09/08
I am really confused as to why they don't give up. I'm glad they are so persistant, but it seems like as time passes they do not fix what needs fixing and if they manage to actually fix it, they break so many other things in the game. The cycle just keeps repeating.
Novice Member
Joined: 11/06/10
MMOs are sort of like that, tbh though they have released 4 or 5 patches already in about as many days. thats quite good going even if those patches generally only fix half the things listed on them.
MO is imo not a bad game, its actually a good game. The issues with the game right now are mostly linked to the new expansion which released months early and not tested enough beofre release.
I think most peoples problem with MO isnt MO but SV the company that make the game. Personally i dont have any gripe with them nor the game. Im just a past player of the game that enjoyed my time with them but it just seems SV themselves dont learn from their mistakes and they also do things that seem poorly planned or thought out.
The game itself is struggling but that doesnt mean i dont have very fond memories of it. I jsut think the end will come.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Novice Member
Joined: 6/11/12
Originally posted by deathshroud
I've never seen that in any other game or software at all tbh. I wonder if SV even realize that they are infact too stupid for bug tracking, software testing and running a test server. Or are they too stupid to realize those facts as well?
Surely they must notice that no other software product in this world comes with a patchlog full of lies and "should be fixed" phrases?


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Google Sets, one of my favorite Google Labs experiments, will be shut down on September 5, just like Google Squared. Launched in 2002, Google Sets is the only experiment from the early days of Google Labs that's still available, even though it hasn't graduated.
The great thing about Google Sets is that it only did one thing and did it very well: automatically generating lists from a few examples. Google Sets used the explicit and implicit lists from the pages indexed by Google and tried to find the lists that were relevant to the examples entered by users. For example, you could enter "Honda" and "Toyota" and Google Sets returned a long list of car brands.
The patent filed in 2003 explains that, at that time, there wasn't any "mechanism for quickly and efficiently generating lists of items given one or more example". Web pages included a lot of lists: some of them were created using special HTML tags (<ul>, <ol>, document headers), others used tables, while most of them were items separated by commas or tabs. The patent was filed by Simon Tong, a researcher who contributed to Google's ranking algorithm, designed AdSense's targeting algorithm and Gmail's spam detection's learning algorithm, and Jeff Dean, who designed Google's crawling, indexing, and query serving systems, BigTable and MapReduce, the initial version of Google's advertising serving system and a lot more.
Google Sets was the building block for Google Squared, a service that generated lists and information about the items. If you type "dogs" in Google Squared, you'll see a list of dog breeds, related images, descriptions, the size and the country of origin. The list of dog breeds is now also displayed at the bottom of Google's results page for [dogs]. The attributes aren't yet available in Google Search, but this feature will probably added in the future.
While Google Sets and Google Squared will no longer be available, they're still used in Google Search to better understand the content of a page and to provide lists of related searches.
Update: Google Sets is still available as a Google Spreadsheets feature.
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Reality stars who have passed away
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Three reality TV show stars have died in recent weeks. Take a look at others who have passed away.
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