text: 1 GULF OF MEXICO FISHERY MANAGEMENT COUNCIL 2 3 227TH MEETING 4 5 FULL COUNCIL SESSION 6 7 Crowne Plaza Pensacola, Florida 8 9 AUGUST 19-20, 2010 10 11 August 19, 2010 12 13 VOTING MEMBERS 14 Bob Shipp.................................................Alabama 15 Larry Abele...............................................Florida 16 Kevin Anson (designee for Vernon Minton)..................Alabama 17 Doug Boyd......................................................TX 18 Roy Crabtree..................NMFS, SERO, St. Petersburg, Florida 19 Robert Gill...............................................Florida 20 Myron Fischer (designee for Randy Pausina)..............Louisiana 21 John Greene, Jr...........................................Alabama 22 Joe Hendrix.................................................Texas 23 Tom McIlwain..........................................Mississippi 24 Damon McKnight..........................................Louisiana 25 William Perret (designee for William Walker)..........Mississippi 26 Robin Riechers..............................................Texas 27 Ed Sapp...................................................Florida 28 William Teehan (designee for Nick Wiley)..................Florida 29 Kay Williams..........................................Mississippi 30 31 NON-VOTING MEMBERS 32 Larry Simpson...............................................GSMFC 33 Carmen DeGeorge..............................................USCG 34 35 STAFF 36 Steven Atran.....................Population Dynamics Statistician 37 Karen Burns......................Ecosystems Management Specialist 38 Steve Bortone..................................Executive Director 39 Assane Diagne...........................................Economist 40 John Froeschke..................................Fishery Biologist 41 Trish Kennedy............................Administrative Assistant 42 Shepherd Grimes..............................NOAA General Counsel 43 Richard Leard...........................Deputy Executive Director 44 Phyllis Miranda.........................................Secretary 45 Emily Muehlstein....................Fisheries Outreach Specialist 46 Charlene Ponce.........................Public Information Officer 47 Cathy Readinger............................Administrative Officer 48 Carrie Simmons..................................Fishery Biologist 1 1 2 OTHER PARTICIPANTS 3 Dave Allison.............................Oceana, Washington, D.C. 4 Jerry Anderson....................................Panama City, FL 5 Pamela Anderson.............Panama City Boatmen's Association, FL 6 Tom Ard..........................................Orange Beach, AL 7 Billy Archer......................................Panama City, FL 8 Pete Barber........Alabama Seafood Association, Bayou LaBatre, AL 9 Jeff Barger.....................Environmental Defense, Austin, TX 10 Tom Becker........Mississippi Charterboat Association, Biloxi, MS 11 Holly Binns.............................................Pew Trust 12 Randy Boggs......................................Orange Beach, AL 13 Steve Branstetter..................................NOAA Fisheries 14 Rossor Bridwell.............................Fort Walton Beach, FL 15 Donna Brooks...........................................Cortez, FL 16 Glen Brooks......................Gulf Fishermen's Association, FL 17 James Bruce............................................Cutoff, LA 18 Gary Bryant.......................................Gulf Shores, AL 19 Daryl Carpenter...................................Baton Rouge, LA 20 Jim Clements.......................................Carrabelle, FL 21 Mike Colby...........Clearwater Commercial Marine Association, FL 22 Jack Conzelman....................................Panama City, FL 23 Bill Coursen.......Pensacola Recreational Fishing Association, FL 24 Dave Cupka..................................................SAFMC 25 Pam Dana...............................................Destin, FL 26 Glen Delaney...........Southern Shrimp Alliance, Washington, D.C. 27 LCDR Carmen DeGeorge.........................................USCG 28 Joe Denmon..........................................Pensacola, FL 29 Tracy Dunn...............................................NOAA OLE 30 Mike Eller.............Destin Charterboat Association, Destin, FL 31 Ben Fairey........Orange Beach Fishing Association, Pensacola, FL 32 J.C. Fanning........................................Pensacola, FL 33 Libby Fetherston............Ocean Conservancy, St. Petersburg, FL 34 Claudia Friess..................................Ocean Conservancy 35 Sue Gerhart..................................................NMFS 36 Jack Golden...........................................Valrico, FL 37 Mike Graef.............................................Destin, FL 38 Matt Griffiths.....Florida Restaurant and Lodging Association, FL 39 Buddy Guindon.................................................... 40 Chad Hanson.................................Pew Environment Group 41 Keith Hebert.........................................Key West, FL 42 Dennis Heinemann................Ocean Conservancy, Alexandria, VA 43 Scott Hickman.....................................League City, TX 44 Henry Hunt........................................Panama City, FL 45 Judi Jamison.........Gulf and South Atlantic Fisheries Foundation 46 Gary Jarvis.......................................Panama City, FL 47 Mike Jennings........................................Freeport, TX 48 Mark Kelley.......................................Panama City, FL 2 1 Bill Kelly....Florida Keys Commercial Fishermen's Association, FL 2 David Krebs.....Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder Alliance, FL 3 Matthew Lamb.................................................USCG 4 Eric Lane.....................................Pensacola Beach, FL 5 Ed Lively.........................................Gulf Breeze, FL 6 Ron Lukens.......................................High Springs, FL 7 Richard Mach (designee for RADM Bill Baumgartner)............USCG 8 Jessica McCawley..Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission 9 Joanne McDonough..................................Gulf Shores, AL 10 Ricky McDuffie...................................Orange Beach, AL 11 Dave McKinney...................Environmental Defense, Austin, TX 12 George McKinney..........................................Pace, FL 13 Michael Miglini................................Corpus Christi, TX 14 Joe Nash.........................................Orange Beach, AL 15 Russell Nelson............................................CCA, FL 16 Bart Niquet........................................Lynn Haven, FL 17 Jaimy Norris................Ocean Conservancy, St. Petersburg, FL 18 George Pfeiffer.......................................Elberta, AL 19 David Rainer.......................................Silverhill, AL 20 Paul Redman.................Pensacola Charterboat Association, FL 21 Hal Robbins..............................................NOAA OLE 22 Grover Robinson.....................................Pensacola, FL 23 Buddy Rogers......................................Gulf Breeze, FL 24 Mike Rowell..........................................Fairhope, AL 25 Jeff Shoults...........................................Destin, FL 26 Jim Smarr.......................................RFA, Rockport, TX 27 Robert Spaeth.......Southern Offshore Fishermen's Association, FL 28 Bill Staff.......................................Orange Beach, AL 29 Phil Steele........................................NOAA Fisheries 30 David Stewart................Orange Beach Fishing Association, AL 31 Russell Stewart...................................Panama City, FL 32 Tom Steber.......................................Orange Beach, AL 33 James Stone.........................................Pensacola, FL 34 Michael Sullivan..................................Panama City, FL 35 Tracy Tate......................................St. Augustine, FL 36 Bill Tucker...........................................Dunedin, FL 37 Robert Turpin.......................................Pensacola, FL 38 Russell Underwood..................................Lynn Haven, FL 39 David Walker........................................Andalusia, AL 40 Donny Waters........................................Pensacola, FL 41 Wayne Werner..........................................Alachua, FL 42 Jeffrey Wielgus.............Ocean Conservancy, St. Petersburg, FL 43 Bob Zales, II..Panama City Boatmen's Association, Panama City, FL 44 45 - - - 46 47 The Full Council of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management 48 Council convened in the Grand Ballroom of the Crowne Plaza, 3 1 Pensacola, Florida, Thursday afternoon, August 19, 2010, and was 2 called to order at 1:00 p.m. by Chairman Bob Shipp. 3 4 CHAIRMAN BOB SHIPP: I want to call to order the 227th meeting of 5 the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council. My name is Bob 6 Shipp and as Chairman of the council, I welcome you all. 7 Members of the public will be permitted to present oral 8 statements in accordance with the schedule published in the 9 agenda. Please advise the council staff if you desire to 10 address the council. Please give written statements to the 11 council staff, who are sitting at the table over on the side. 12 13 The 1996 amendments to the Fishery Management Act require all 14 oral or written statements to include a brief description of the 15 background and interest of the persons in the subject of the 16 statement. All written information shall include a statement of 17 the source and date of such information. 18 19 It is unlawful for any person to knowingly and willfully submit 20 to the council false information regarding any manner the 21 council is considering in the course of carrying out the 22 Fisheries Act. 23 24 If you have a cell phone, pager, or similar device, we ask that 25 you keep them on silent or vibrating mode during the council and 26 committee sessions. A digital recording is used for the public 27 record and therefore, for the purpose of voice identification, 28 each member is requested to identify himself or herself, 29 starting on my left. 30 31 MR. CORKY PERRET: Corky Perret, Mississippi. 32 33 MR. DAMON MCKNIGHT: Damon McKnight, Louisiana. 34 35 MR. MYRON FISCHER: Myron Fischer, Louisiana. 36 37 MR. JOE HENDRIX: Joe Hendrix, Texas. 38 39 MR. DOUG BOYD: Doug Boyd, Texas. 40 41 MR. ROBIN RIECHERS: Texas. 42 43 MS. KAY WILLIAMS: Kay Williams, Mississippi. 44 45 MR. PHIL STEELE: Phil Steele, NOAA Fisheries. 46 47 DR. ROY CRABTREE: Roy Crabtree, NOAA Fisheries. 48 4 1 MR. SHEPHERD GRIMES: Shepherd Grimes, NOAA General Counsel, 2 Southeast Region. 3 4 DR. BONNIE PONWITH: Bonnie Ponwith, NOAA Fisheries Service. 5 6 MR. JOHN GREENE: John Greene, Alabama. 7 8 MR. KEVIN ANSON: Kevin Anson, Alabama. 9 10 DR. LARRY ABELE: Larry Abele, Florida. 11 12 MR. BILL TEEHAN: Bill Teehan, Florida. 13 14 LCDR CARMEN DEGEORGE: Carmen DeGeorge, Coast Guard District 8. 15 16 MR. ED SAPP: Ed Sapp, Florida. 17 18 DR. TOM MCILWAIN: Tom McIlwain, Mississippi. 19 20 MR. LARRY SIMPSON: Larry Simpson, Gulf States Marine Fisheries 21 Commission. 22 23 MR. BOB GILL: Bob Gill, Florida. 24 25 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR STEVE BORTONE: Steve Bortone, Gulf Council. 26 27 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, all. Before we adopt the agenda, 28 I'm going to turn it over to Dr. Crabtree for the swearing in of 29 new council members. 30 31 SWEARING IN OF NEW COUNCIL MEMBERS 32 33 DR. CRABTREE: I would ask that Doug and Larry and Kay come up 34 to the front. 35 36 (Whereupon, the new council members are sworn in.) 37 38 ADOPTION OF AGENDA 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: The next item is the Adoption of the Agenda. 41 It is Tab A, Number 5. Would someone move that we adopt the 42 agenda? 43 44 MR. GILL: I would like to add another item under Other Business 45 which would be mackerel latent permits. 46 47 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Got that, Dr. Bortone? I would also like to 48 add an item regarding liaison with the Caribbean Council. Are 5 1 there any other new business items? 2 3 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: I would like to discuss the seafood 4 festival. 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS: I would like to discuss council members' needs. 7 8 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Anything else? With those new business items 9 added, do I hear a motion to adopt the agenda? 10 11 MR. GILL: So moved. 12 13 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second? Objections? Hearing none, 16 the next item is Approval of Minutes. That's Tab A, Number 6. 17 Does anyone have any corrections to the minutes? Mr. Grimes? 18 This is going to move us way ahead of schedule. Do I hear a 19 motion to approve the minutes? Objections? The minutes are 20 approved. The next item is Briefing on Oil Spill and Dr. 21 Crabtree. 22 23 BRIEFING ON OIL SPILL 24 25 DR. CRABTREE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure everyone is 26 aware the oil well was capped some weeks ago. It appears to be 27 permanently capped at this point and we, several weeks ago, 28 shifted from reviewing maps and looking at where needed to be 29 closed and the emphasis shifted to sampling seafood and looking 30 at potentially reopening areas. 31 32 We are operating now with a protocol for reopening that was 33 developed by NOAA, working with the Food and Drug Administration 34 and also with all of the affected Gulf States. What the 35 protocol essentially lays out is that before we reopen an area, 36 one, it has to be determined to be free of oil and the FDA has 37 to concur with that determination. 38 39 Then if that's determined, then it also has to have a very low 40 likelihood of be re-oiled in the near future. If those two 41 conditions are met, then we have to go in and sample the 42 shellfish and fish from the area and they're then subjected to 43 two types of tests. 44 45 One is a sensory test, which essentially involves a panel of 46 trained experts who smell the fish. It turns out that the human 47 nose is very sensitive to hydrocarbons and can detect very low 48 levels. It goes through a sensory test and then it also goes 6 1 through a series of chemical tests that test for hydrocarbons. 2 3 If it passes all of those, then the area can be reopened and we 4 have now reopened a number of areas. I think most of the state 5 waters that were closed as a result of the spill have now been 6 reopened, although they may not be reopened to everything. I 7 know a lot of oyster areas and blue crabs and things remain 8 closed. 9 10 We've reopened two portions of the federal closed area. The 11 first area was the southeastern-most portion, which was opened 12 several weeks ago, I think, and then the most recent reopening 13 was of the waters off the Panhandle, which were opened to 14 finfish only. 15 16 We have a large number of vessels working in the closed area 17 now. It is a combination of charterboats, commercial fishing 18 vessels, and research vessels that are sampling fish and shrimp 19 in these areas for testing and we basically devised the strategy 20 for coming at the sample that started in the areas that had been 21 the least impacted from the oil well. 22 23 We produced a map of the closed area that looked at how many 24 days had oil been present from the beginning and so we 25 essentially started -- We started in the southeastern area, 26 because that was the most distant and had been the least 27 affected of anywhere and so that's taken care of. 28 29 Then we started working on the eastern, northern and eastern 30 area, off the Panhandle and working to the west across the 31 northern Gulf and at the same time, we started sampling on the 32 western end of the closed area off of Louisiana and working our 33 way back to the west. 34 35 We also sent three commercial fishing vessels out into the 36 southernmost boundary of the closed area to sample for things 37 like tuna and mahi and dolphin and those types of fish. I think 38 we are very close to completing work off of western Louisiana 39 and the next area we're focusing on after that will be the 40 northern Gulf area, all the way across to Mississippi and then 41 the priority for sampling after that will be the remaining 42 portion off of western Louisiana and we also are focusing some 43 sampling efforts of the more offshore areas off of Alabama and 44 the Florida Panhandle. 45 46 The last area that we'll sample will be the area right around 47 the wellhead itself, the Deepwater Horizon site. What we did is 48 took the closed area and broke it up into a series of grids that 7 1 are thirty-by-thirty minute longitude and latitude grids. An 2 area roughly sixty miles either side from the wellhead itself, 3 and that includes the portion of the Mississippi Delta that's 4 right there, will probably be the last area that we'll come to 5 for reopening. 6 7 We're making, I think, pretty good progress towards this. 8 Obviously it's a sensitive issue and our main concern is to 9 protect the integrity of the seafood supply and try and ensure 10 that people can be confident that Gulf seafood is safe and so 11 we're trying to do this in a very deliberate and systematic 12 fashion. 13 14 We're trying to make sure that we adequate sample areas before 15 we reopen them. Whenever we finish sampling a grid and have the 16 results, we have to then go to the Food and Drug Administration 17 and get their concurrence that everything is okay. 18 19 Every time we sample an area and every time we open an area, all 20 of the determinations we're making, we have the Food and Drug 21 Administration's concurrence with us and this is the same 22 protocol, by the way, that the states have also followed and 23 everyone is going along with that. 24 25 The last thing I would make sure you're aware of is Congress did 26 pass a supplemental bill which has some funds in it for work in 27 the Gulf that Larry has been working on. There's $15 million in 28 there, which I think can be used for promoting the Gulf and 29 things like that. 30 31 There's also a $10 million sum in there for improved stock 32 assessments, which is going to go to a variety of things. Some 33 of it will go to recreational sampling, enhancement of the 34 recreational surveys, and some will go to biostatistical 35 sampling with the Commission, things like aging and sampling 36 dockside, and then a big portion of it is going to go to a 37 fishery-independent survey, which remember that's the highest 38 priority of the council, has been enhanced fishery-independent 39 surveys in the Gulf of Mexico. A lot of the money is going to 40 go to that. 41 42 There's also a $13 million chunk of funding that's in there, but 43 that's money that can't be spent until all other sources, 44 including BP sources, have been exhausted and so that money is 45 there, but that's probably off a little ways before we'll have 46 access to that. I think that concludes my report, Bob, and I 47 would be happy to try and answer questions. 48 8 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: First, I'll ask council members if they have 2 any questions and then if we have some time, I'll open it up to 3 questions from the public. 4 5 MR. PERRET: Can I just make a statement rather than ask a 6 question? I just want to reiterate some of what Dr. Crabtree 7 said. I think this testing of the waters and the fisheries, the 8 crab, shrimp, finfish, et cetera, is unprecedented in the number 9 of samples and the intensity of the samples Gulf-wide, in the 10 EEZ as well as in federal waters. 11 12 There's all sorts of things that have been in the press, some 13 not too good, about seafood safety and the safety of Gulf 14 seafood. Number one, the two federal agencies that Roy 15 mentioned have been working very closely with the states, and 16 the state's Health and DEQ offices, to see about testing seafood 17 for reopening. 18 19 Thousands of samples have been taken and for the most part, 20 they've all come back and the seafood was safe and only those 21 waters and seafood that have been tested and meet the test are 22 open. For example, on the sensory test, which is the first 23 part, I think the number is seven experts in sensory testing. 24 They have to have a unanimous opinion for the samples to pass 25 the sensory test. If anyone disagrees, then it doesn't meet 26 that criteria. 27 28 Gulf seafood is probably being tested more than any other food 29 source in this country and please, when you get the word out 30 about Gulf seafood, Gulf seafood is safe and wholesome and good 31 and we're open for business. Thank you. 32 33 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Perret. 34 35 MR. TEEHAN: Having participated in the development of the 36 protocol, I know it's very rigorous and I think it's going to 37 guarantee the safety of the seafood and I would like to thank 38 NOAA Fisheries for their help with the State of Florida for 39 getting some of the sampling done. 40 41 Roy, I know that -- Since I do know the protocol and the 42 sampling issues inside out, it's a difficult question, but I 43 just thought I would ask. The areas that are still closed in 44 the federal zone, particularly the remainder of the ones that 45 are off of Pensacola and Alabama and western Louisiana, do you 46 have any idea when the finfish portion -- Has the finfish 47 portion of that sampling have been done and submitted to 48 Pascagoula at this point? 9 1 2 DR. CRABTREE: We have a pretty robust sample of finfish and I 3 think a fair amount of shrimp in that northern zone, which I 4 think is north 29 degrees, 30 minutes, all the way across to 5 Louisiana waters. That has all been submitted and a large 6 portion of the testing has been completed. 7 8 There have been some discussions with FDA about the quantity in 9 shrimp, but I think we're close on that. I think we're close on 10 Louisiana as well and so I'm hopeful that things will happen 11 with these fairly quickly, but I can't give you any definitive 12 timelines on them. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any other questions from council members? We 15 will take a few minutes for questions from the public, but 16 please keep them specific to the oil spill, because we'll have 17 public testimony later on for all the other issues. 18 19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a question for you on the protocol, 20 if it's possible. What is the definition of oil, when you say 21 an area has to be free for a period of seven days? Just to give 22 you a little background on it, I was one of the boats that was 23 hired two-and-a-half or three weeks ago to do some of this 24 sampling off of Louisiana's coast and in every trip we took, we 25 discovered oil, whether it be at depth and some of it on the 26 fish itself and some of it on the fishing line itself. 27 28 As we moved areas west, we saw -- The observers documented some 29 oil and it got to be more of a rare occurrence, but they 30 documented some oil in the weed lines and so forth and the 31 people that we're hearing from tell us that closer to ground 32 zero with any little disturbance that comes up in the Gulf, any 33 of this oil that is suspended, we could periodically see this 34 stuff surface and get hung up in our weed lines and so forth for 35 months and/or years to come. Going forward, what is the 36 definition of oil in this protocol? 37 38 DR. CRABTREE: There's not a very hard and fast definition 39 written down. It's something we're working out with FDA as we 40 move along. There is always oil and has been in the Gulf of 41 Mexico. 42 43 There are substantial natural seeps of oil and there are tar 44 balls in the Gulf of Mexico and so there is some background 45 level of hydrocarbons and oil that's in the Gulf and has been 46 and will continue to be and so free of oil does not mean 47 absolutely no trace of oil, because that's just part of the 48 reality of the Gulf. 10 1 2 Tar balls are generally felt to be very highly weathered and not 3 to pose a particular human health risk and so that's one issue 4 with it. Certainly if an area has visible oil at the surface, 5 sheen at the surface, or if it has measurable quantities of 6 dissolved oil or oil below surface, we probably wouldn't open an 7 area like that and the areas you're talking about in portions of 8 Louisiana, if we're continuing to see evidence of oil there, I 9 don't think we'll reopen those. 10 11 I think what we're looking at now are the areas more to the west 12 and then the areas near ground zero, or the wellhead itself, 13 we're probably some time away from reopening anything in that 14 area and I think the key issue when we get into that area is 15 going to be the concerns about oil near the bottom, subsurface 16 oil, those types of things. 17 18 That's probably the best thing I can give you now, but you can't 19 come at this that oil means absolutely no trace, because that's 20 just not going to happen in the Gulf. We've had issues that the 21 State of Louisiana has worked with that there be some oil up in 22 the marshes and there may be occasional sheens and we've been in 23 some consultations with FDA and others on looking at what are 24 the health risks associated with very small sheens. I think 25 they're fairly minimal. I hope that gives you some guidelines 26 around what we're looking at. 27 28 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does and I appreciate the answer. I 29 would just ask going forward, keeping in mind some of this oil 30 that we spotted, particularly the stuff that gets hung up in our 31 weed lines and in our grass lines, it looked more like the tar 32 balls. 33 34 There wasn't necessarily sheen coming off of it and in my terms, 35 it didn't look like it had any active hydrocarbons in it, so to 36 speak. It was not giving off a sheen, but at the same point, 37 the observers that we had onboard, as per their instructions, or 38 at least that's the way it was relayed to us, as far as they was 39 concerned, this was an oiled area and in fact, they pretty much 40 called off the trips at one point and left days early because 41 they said that the area could remain closed and reevaluated at a 42 later time, but they, of course, could not answer these 43 questions. 44 45 DR. CRABTREE: This has happened. When we've gone into a grid 46 to sample, if oil is observed there, they've discontinued with 47 the sampling, because that area is not right for reopening at 48 that point, and we'll give it some more time and go back in and 11 1 see what we see later on. 2 3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand and the only thing I would ask 4 going forward is maybe as we revisit this protocol or whatever 5 that if we do have these benign patties of oil or whatever, if 6 they are indeed no health risk, is maybe that definition be a 7 little bit redefined, because if we get some of the stuff that's 8 on the surface and hung up in sargassum grass and all, it could 9 make circles in the Gulf for months and years to come. 10 11 DR. CRABTREE: We're working on refining that as we go along, 12 but it's a complicated question. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Donny Waters, did you have a question? 15 16 MR. DONALD WATERS: Thank you, Bob. Roy, my question is very 17 similar, but I went home early on Tuesday night and turned on my 18 TV and watched CNN with a breaking news report of mid-water oil 19 forty miles south of Panama City, very significant amounts of 20 oil on the bottom and mixed in the bottom was definitely oil. 21 22 As we know, this area is open now and so what is the protocol 23 for reclosing it? Is there that much of a difference between 24 the oil being embedded in the seabed mid-water and even mixed, 25 as the report says, and like I said, you can get some very 26 conflicting reports, mixed in with the plankton, which is very 27 bottom of the food chain, which is a very scary thought? 28 29 You've got scientists from the University of Florida coming in 30 with legitimate science and just because -- I'm more scared of 31 mid-water oil and bottom oil than I am a sheen on top and you 32 was very hesitant of very hesitant or very weary of an oil sheen 33 reaching an area within forty-eight hours to close it and now we 34 have reports of legitimate scientists saying there's mid-water 35 oil, bottom oil, and oil mixed with bottom sediment and in the 36 plankton and what's your protocol on reclosing an area once you 37 get a report like that? 38 39 DR. CRABTREE: First off, I don't have the report you're talking 40 about and I don't have those specific station locations and so I 41 can't verify that they've found anything that's inside the area 42 we reopened and so we're going to have to look at that. I think 43 that cruise was just completed a few days ago and so we'll have 44 to look at that. In terms of if we determine that an area that 45 we've reopened was re-oiled, we would close it back down. 46 47 MR. WATERS: I wouldn't necessarily call it re-oiled, but it was 48 just out of sight. Once you sink it, it's a lot harder to see 12 1 on the bottom than it is on the top, as we all know as 2 fishermen. The boats floating on the top is easier to count 3 than the fish swimming on the bottom. 4 5 DR. CRABTREE: I'm aware that the University of South Florida 6 did some sampling out there and we're getting with them and 7 looking at what they found and we'll make a determination. 8 9 MR. WATERS: Thank you very much and please proceed cautiously. 10 11 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If there's no one else, the next item on the 12 agenda is Dr. Bortone is going to give us Fisheries 101 and 13 that's Tab N. 14 15 FISHERIES 101 16 17 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Thank you very much, Dr. Shipp. 18 The last council meeting, I had indicated that the staff was 19 interested in putting forth a session that we've called 20 Fisheries 101, which is an introduction to basic fisheries 21 science, meant for the council members and the public, to bring 22 them up to speed on some of the latest things that are going on 23 in fisheries science. 24 25 I attended a conference I guess it was in the spring and I heard 26 Dr. Will Patterson present a talk which basically is a good 27 introduction to the Magnuson Act and it was not without 28 controversy. It had some interesting ideas and it's just not a 29 straightforward presentation, which is, I think, what we're 30 looking for in this series. 31 32 It's to educate and to interest and to give you some background 33 information and this will be the first of our series and I hope 34 I'll receive comments from the public and the council on how we 35 could improve and topics that we might pick up in the future. 36 37 I would like to introduce Will Patterson. Dr. Will Patterson is 38 on the faculty at the University of West Florida. He's a 39 fisheries scientist. 40 41 He's also a member of our Scientific and Statistical Committee 42 and he's familiar with the fisheries in the northern Gulf of 43 Mexico and so I've asked Will to present a paper that he and 44 Luiz Barbieri presented and I guess it's similar, if it's not 45 identical, to the talk I heard earlier. Without further ado, 46 Will, Number 1 in our Fisheries 101 program. 47 48 DR. WILL PATTERSON: Thanks, Steve. This is a talk that Luiz 13 1 and I put together for the Florida AFS meeting, which is 2 predominantly freshwater biologists. The goal of this was to 3 give them some background into some issues that we're facing, 4 and you guys in particular, with respect to fisheries management 5 in federal waters. 6 7 The top figure that you see here is a slide that shows global 8 landings estimates and the light blue is global besides China 9 and the darker blue includes China. What you'll notice is that 10 for about the last twenty years, catch has been fairly constant, 11 if not declining. 12 13 There's some issues with the Chinese reporting of landings and 14 so the UN considers those landings separately, but one thing, 15 besides the decline in recent years, that you'll notice or one 16 thing that's apparent in the fisheries data is that fisheries 17 are moving to deeper waters and lower trophic levels are being 18 exploited and so there's some real concern. 19 20 There's also a lot of information now in popular literature, the 21 books listed or magazines or newspapers, that talk about the 22 issue of the collapse of fisheries. Obviously this is a concern 23 also in the U.S., although we have perhaps a longer track record 24 of management than other places on the globe. 25 26 The history of U.S. federal fisheries management we put into 27 three time stanzas that reflect what we feel the dominant or 28 predominant environmental ethics of the time periods. Prior to 29 the 1960s, we call this the boundless sea and this really goes 30 back to ideas of Thomas Huxley in the late nineteenth century 31 that said there's no way we can overexploit the oceans. They're 32 too vast and too productive and it can't happen, but as early as 33 the late nineteenth century in the Gulf of Mexico, there were 34 signs of overfishing in some stocks. 35 36 In the 1970s and 1980s, sort of a shift occurred to this idea of 37 environmental capacity and really, this is captured best in the 38 concept of maximum sustainable yield, there's some maximum that 39 we can take every year and have that been sustainable. 40 41 More recently, there's been a shift to the precautionary 42 principle, the idea that perhaps there is no unique MSY or that 43 it's a false or empty concept and that we have to be more 44 precautious in setting catch levels, such that we can have 45 sustainable fisheries well into the future. 46 47 In the mid-1970s, we have the first Magnuson-Stevens Act. 48 Obviously federal fisheries science and management dated back to 14 1 the end of the nineteenth century. The U.S. Fish Commission was 2 founded in 1871. However, this Magnuson Act of 1976 was 3 groundbreaking for several reasons. 4 5 One, it established the EEZ out to 200 miles and, two, it 6 created the federal fishery management councils and, three, 7 another significant thing that it did is it established loan 8 programs to replace foreign capital with U.S. fishing capital 9 and among the different aspects of the Act were National 10 Standards. 11 12 We've been dealing recently with National Standards for the 13 reauthorized act. However, these National Standards, many of 14 them go back to 1976 and the first two are to prevent 15 overfishing while achieving on a continuing basis the optimum 16 yield from each fishery for the United States fishing industry. 17 Prevent overfishing and achieve optimum yield is NS-1. 18 19 The second is to have conservation and management -- It shall be 20 based on the best scientific information available. Even as 21 early as 1976, we had this idea of best scientific information 22 available. It doesn't say perfect science or it doesn't say 23 flawless information, but it says best available. 24 25 What happened? In the 1970s and 1980s, as federal fishery 26 management ramped up, we had trip ticket programs in state and 27 federal waters kick in for commercial fisheries and we had MRFSS 28 start in federal waters. 29 30 As the council system was getting its legs under itself around 31 the country, we still had a series of fairly significant stock 32 collapses, rockfish on the west coast and cod and North Atlantic 33 swordfish and then obviously a fish that's caused many of you a 34 great deal of consternation through the years, Gulf of Mexico 35 red snapper. We had continued overfishing and stock collapse, 36 although for many of these stocks we eventually had recovery. 37 38 In 1996, the Act was -- The first significant reauthorization of 39 the Act occurred and the Sustainable Fisheries Act and so three 40 significant changes to the legislation occurred. The first is 41 that fishery management plans must specify stock status 42 determination criteria. 43 44 The second was that rebuilding plans were required for 45 overfished stocks and lastly, bycatch and essential fish habitat 46 provisions were included and so this shifting toward a 47 precautionary approach as well as including ecosystem 48 considerations into management. 15 1 2 Another thing that happened in 1996 was the Act indicated that 3 if there was a quota, a hard quota, and it was met, then a 4 fishery had to close and so that was a new provision of the 5 legislation. The figure that you see down below, this is the 6 control rule for Gulf of Mexico king mackerel that came about 7 after the 1996 SFA. 8 9 On the Y-axis, vertical axis, we have the fishing mortality rate 10 relative to the fishing mortality rate at MSY. On the X-axis, 11 we have biomass estimate versus biomass at MSY and we can see 12 this red line and then this creates four quadrants. The red 13 line here, this is the ratio of F to FMSY or if that's to the 14 right of the purple line, that's the maximum fishing mortality 15 threshold and then it decreases as you move to the origin, once 16 you move past the minimum stock size threshold. That's computed 17 as one minus natural mortality times this ratio of biomass to 18 biomass at MSY. 19 20 In the top left, what we end up with is an overfishing and 21 overfished condition, which we don't want, and the bottom right, 22 we have not overfished and not overfishing and so this was the 23 goal of management, is to put stocks in this bottom right-hand 24 quadrant. 25 26 This is the result from the 2004 king mackerel stock assessment 27 and this is called a phase plot and so we have the estimate of 28 fishing to FMSY in 2003 and then we have the spawning stock 29 biomass estimate to the spawning stock biomass at MSY and then 30 we have two lines, the red and the green. 31 32 The green is the F30 percent spawning potential ratio 33 replacement line and so this is the proxy for MSY and then the 34 green line is the 40 percent SPR, the proxy for OY. The 35 diamonds that you see here, these are bootstrap estimates coming 36 out of the stock assessment model and it creates a distribution. 37 38 The yellow diamond that you see, this is the deterministic run, 39 the single run from the model, and the goal in this was to 40 estimate the percentage of the distribution which was not 41 overfishing and not overfished or overfishing or overfished, 42 depending on your perspective, but we had a clear threshold, 43 which was the MSY proxy, and we had a clear target, to get the 44 stock to OY, and in this case, the OY proxy was 40 percent SPR. 45 46 The next figure I show you here, these are the probability 47 distributions projecting forward one year and trying to set or 48 advise the council what the ABC, and therefore the total 16 1 allowable catch, should be. In this context, ABC was referred 2 to as the allowable biological catch. In the reauthorized Act, 3 that's changed to acceptable. 4 5 What we can see here is that we have two lines again. The green 6 represents the MSY proxy and the red is the OY. Basically, what 7 we have is we're looking at yield across the Y-axis and in this 8 case, the advice that was given from the Mackerel Stock 9 Assessment Panel was to fish at the 50 percent probability of 10 hitting the target, which is F40 percent OY. We didn't want to 11 have more than a 50 percent probability of exceeding the target. 12 13 What the council asked for was the point estimate for the MSY 14 proxy, which is the threshold and not the target, as well as the 15 20th and 80th percentiles of that range and then they were to set 16 TAC based upon those numbers and so what happened? 17 18 This is Gulf king mackerel management and the top here, we have 19 a panel that shows from 1995 through 2005 and we have millions 20 of pounds and we have three points on the plot. The pink that 21 you see here, this was the total allowable catch as set by the 22 council and the green, this is the 20th percentile of the 23 distribution of FMSY or the yield at FMSY and then the red X at 24 the top, that's the 80th. 25 26 We recommended the median of F40 percent and so that's not even 27 shown on here, but what the council routinely picked was a total 28 allowable catch that had a very high probability of even 29 exceeding the limit and a considerable high probability of 30 exceeding the target. There's a great paper by Joe Powers in 31 the late 1990s that highlights this issue. 32 33 Down below, we can see that, again, the pink -- This is the 34 total allowable catch. This is the quota for king mackerel and 35 then the blue that you see here, this is actually what the 36 landings were and so what you can see is that even though TAC 37 kept ratcheting up during this time period and TAC was well 38 above what the science had recommended as what it should be to 39 be sustainable, in the early years of this time series the 40 landings, the landings estimates, were even much greater than 41 this non-conservatively set TAC. 42 43 In more recent years, we see a decline, and this is mostly due 44 to mercury scare, and the decline in the percentage of total 45 catch, percentage of the quota, which has been realized by the 46 recreational fishery. 47 48 In the case of red snapper, at the top we have a panel that has 17 1 recreational total allowable catch as well as landings and at 2 the bottom we have commercial and this highlights another couple 3 of issues. 4 5 In red snapper, there were a couple of parameters that were 6 revisited during this time series of assessment, from the early 7 1990s until the mid-2000s. 8 9 We had an increase in the estimate of the longevity of the stock 10 and we had issues of bycatch reduction and whether it could come 11 in at a certain level or not, but basically, we have the same 12 issues, and they're not shown here, with the Reef Fish Panel 13 recommending a certain level of TAC and the council taking a 14 what would be considered a non-conservative total allowable 15 catch and then, in the early part of this time series, the 16 fishery was catching many more fish, or a greater biomass of 17 fish, than even this TAC as it was set, but then in the late 18 1990s we had SFA and SFA said there's a hard quota and the 19 fishery must close and so we saw that change. 20 21 Another interesting thing to look at though is just to pull out 22 the commercial information and because we have trip tickets and 23 a near census of the commercial catch, what's happened over this 24 time series is that as the commercial fishery got near the quota 25 or right at it, the fishery was closed. We have very different 26 dynamics, obviously, managing recreational versus commercial 27 fisheries. 28 29 Under SFA, what was the report card? How well did the nation 30 do? This is an index called the Fish Stock Sustainability Index 31 that's produced by NOAA Fisheries and you can see that during 32 this time period -- I'm not going to get into details of how 33 this is actually computed, but during this time period 34 nationwide, we saw a general increase in this Fish Stock 35 Sustainability Index and so a pat on the back. 36 37 However, this is estimates of the numbers of stocks that were 38 still estimated to be overfished in 2006 and so throughout the 39 nation, we see lots of high profile species estimated to be 40 overfished still in 2006 and so clearly there were some issues 41 that remained even with the changes from SFA. 42 43 There's a great quote here from Andy Rosenberg that says 44 uncertainty undermines political will and environmental decision 45 making and so this idea of uncertainty has been part of 46 fisheries management for a long time, but we can use it in two 47 different approaches. 48 18 1 Back in the day, when we were not under a precautionary sort of 2 scenario, uncertainty would say if you can't tell me that we're 3 overfishing, then we're going to keep on plowing straight ahead. 4 The legislation now incorporates an ethic that says if we're 5 uncertain as to the likelihood of this causing something bad, we 6 should avoid it. 7 8 This all brings into issue a consideration that was very 9 apparent in SFA and perhaps not as much so in the reauthorized 10 Act and this is the idea of what's a target and what's a 11 threshold. 12 13 There's an interesting case that occurred in the early-2000s 14 along the east coast with fluke, in that there was a case that 15 went before a federal judge. The total allowable catch had been 16 set with about an 18 percent probability of not overfishing in 17 the next year and so the case went to court and there was an 18 appeal and basically a federal judge said that the total 19 allowable catch had to be set with no more than a 50 percent 20 probability of exceeding the threshold. 21 22 It didn't say anything about the target and so this did two 23 things. One, it said there are firm thresholds that you have to 24 be below and the second thing it said, in sort of absentia, was 25 that we don't have to pay attention to the target and we have to 26 manage towards the threshold. That's really a 1976 idea of MSY 27 and not a 1996 idea of OY and putting some real meat into the 28 legislation to get us to OY. 29 30 That brings us to 2006, the Magnuson-Stevens Reauthorization 31 Act. What are some things it did differently? First, obviously 32 you guys have been dealing with this issue. Councils must set 33 annual catch limits for overfished stocks in 2010 and for 34 everything else by 2011 and end overfishing by 2010. 35 36 Two is the greater responsibilities for the SSCs. Now we 37 estimate OFL directly and then set ABC, which is the acceptable 38 biological catch, and then lastly, it tightens rebuilding 39 timelines. Obviously there's a lot more to it than that, but 40 those are the highlights and so we're left with this 41 relationship. 42 43 OFL is not specifically mentioned in the Act, although we do 44 have MSY. ABC and ACL are and ACT isn't altogether and the 45 National Standards -- The Guidelines for interpreting National 46 Standard 1, ACT has now been recommended as a way to facilitate 47 accountability measures and not so much as in the year-to-year 48 setting of what the annual catch should be, but obviously if 19 1 accountability measures kick in at ACL, then you want to have 2 some probability of not encountering accountability measures. 3 You either have to have a fairly high probability of hitting the 4 ACL or being below it or you want to give yourself a buffer. 5 6 In this scenario, what are the roles of the SSC and the roles of 7 the council? The SSC role is to estimate the OFL, preferably 8 based on a quantitative stock assessment, and the second role of 9 the SSC is to set the acceptable biological catch. The ACL, the 10 annual catch limit, has to be less than or equal to ABC and then 11 there's this parameter that causes a lot of heartburn, ACT, 12 which now isn't included as a hard and fast must have, but 13 rather as a recommendation. 14 15 What's unclear is what the relationship between ABC and ACL is. 16 That's not really specified in the Guidelines, but what is 17 specified is the things on the left here. This is the role of 18 the SSC. The things on the right, this is the role of the 19 council. 20 21 However, in coming up with an ABC control rule, the Gulf SSC has 22 been very specific in our desire to work with the council to get 23 guidance from the council as far as risk levels, as well as to 24 have council members present, so that it's more of a 25 collaborative effort and not something that you feel is being 26 imposed. 27 28 There's lots of different ways that different council's SSCs 29 have come up with trying to estimate ABC once OFL has been 30 estimated. There is a very prescriptive case in the North 31 Pacific where they have quantitative assessments, lots of data, 32 and therefore very quantitative ways in which to estimate ABC. 33 34 Then the other extreme, perhaps, is the Caribbean, in which not 35 only are there not catch data or species composition data, but 36 in many cases there are not even catch data for lots of the 37 stocks and so it's a very, very difficult situation. 38 39 One thing that's apparent from looking at the Act and talking to 40 folks around the country is that many of the things that were 41 input into the reauthorized Act actually come straight out of 42 the Pacific Northwest and really Alaska. 43 44 What we have to realize is that the Alaskan fisheries are very 45 different than fisheries we encounter here. One, they're 46 predominantly commercial and large scale. They've had closed 47 access for a long time and many of them have ITQs and this panel 48 on the left, this is the Gulf of Alaska fishery and basically we 20 1 have the F ratios on the Y-axis and the biomass ratios on the X- 2 axis and you can see that for many of the stocks shown here 3 they're clearly not overfished and not overfishing. 4 5 In many cases, the biomass ratios are twice biomass at MSY and 6 so we have a very well managed but different type of fishery 7 than exists here in the Gulf of Mexico. 8 9 In the Gulf, obviously we have some significant commercial 10 fisheries, but by landings by weight, if we throw out menhaden 11 and shrimp, we end up with lots of fisheries, finfish fisheries, 12 for which there's also a significant recreational component and 13 that's what these two figures on the left show, is that 14 commercial fisheries, they tend to be centered in the north- 15 central Gulf of Mexico and the predominant landings, by mass, 16 are menhaden and shrimp, for which there are no recreational 17 fisheries. 18 19 The figure on the top right, this is a figure that comes out of 20 a paper that Felicia Coleman et al. published in Science a few 21 years ago and basically, it's highlighting this issue of what's 22 the impact of recreational fisheries. 23 24 They describe something called species of concern and these are 25 stocks which are undergoing overfishing or are considered to be 26 estimated to be overfished and this little pie that you see down 27 here in the Gulf of Mexico, the red is recreational and the blue 28 is commercial. 29 30 What it shows is that for species of concern in the Gulf of 31 Mexico, about two-thirds of the landings for those stocks are 32 recreational and so we have this issue again of recreational 33 fishing in the Gulf of Mexico being very important, but also, 34 when we deal with catch streams and estimating catch, obviously 35 the MRFSS/MRIP debate, we have difficulties in trying to 36 actually track landings. That only adds uncertainty to the 37 process. 38 39 How do we set ABC based on these ideas of uncertainty? There 40 have been a couple of national workshops, one in Hawaii two 41 years ago and last year in St. Thomas, and in these workshops, 42 one of the things that was visited in both of them was this idea 43 of setting ABC. 44 45 What we learned is that around the country, different councils' 46 SSCs are dealing with this issue in many different ways and the 47 reasons for that is because there are lots of differences in 48 types of assessments that are conducted, types of data that 21 1 exist, and the types of fisheries that are there and so there's 2 not a one-size-fits-all and perhaps some of the vagaries of the 3 Act reflect this, because it can't be too prescriptive because 4 one size doesn't fit all when it comes to U.S. fisheries. 5 6 One thing that is pretty consistent or has been used 7 consistently across different SSCs is this idea of the P* 8 approach. Basically when an assessment is done, you can produce 9 a distribution of the OFL, the yield at FMSY, and then from 10 that, this is a probability distribution that any level of 11 catch, based on the variance in the model, the uncertainty, any 12 level of catch is going to exceed that proxy of OFL. 13 14 The idea is to set ABC with a low probability of exceeding OFL 15 and that probability that we're dealing with in the Gulf, we've 16 actually asked the council what their thoughts are and we've 17 gotten a range. 18 19 Then the key to this is to have a probability distribution and 20 also to have the P*. What's the probability that you're willing 21 to accept that you're going to overfish? From there, we can set 22 ABC. What we've been working on recently in the Gulf SSC is a 23 tiered approach. It's my understanding that the Gulf Council 24 has basically signed off on what we call Tier 1 and our ideas 25 for that and that quantitative assessment provides an estimate 26 of the yield at MSY, or proxy, and the probability distribution 27 function. From there, we use the P* approach to estimate or set 28 ABC. 29 30 Secondly, a probability distribution function can be calculated 31 from the variance in landings or other suitable methods, data- 32 poor species for which we can't conduct a quantitative 33 assessment. We have to deal with that issue. 34 35 A Tier 3 approach is a probability distribution function cannot 36 be calculated and so therefore, we have to convert some level of 37 P* into a buffer using alternative methods and so Tier 2 and 38 Tier 3, these are ideas which are still under development and 39 around the country they're under development. Data-poor 40 situations don't lend themselves very well, because there's so 41 much uncertainty involved. Clearly the Caribbean and perhaps 42 the Western Pacific are dealing with this more than anybody 43 else. 44 45 The idea in MSRA was to give us more of a science-based approach 46 and to give us a better chance of achieving OY long term and so 47 how are we doing or what's the likelihood of success? 48 22 1 NS-1, the ideas are to prevent overfishing while achieving on a 2 continuing basis the optimum yield from each fishery for the 3 U.S. fishing industry. I think it's pretty clear that we're 4 going to have a better chance of preventing or ending 5 overfishing. It's mandated in the Act and we've seen moves 6 around the country to institute that. 7 8 This idea of optimum yield, we're not currently tracking optimum 9 yield. I don't see any new estimates and I don't see the 10 proxies for OY that exist in the Gulf being discussed. We're 11 just trying to get an idea of how to set ABC and where does ACL 12 go from there, but clearly I think what has to be involved in 13 the next part of the process is to figure out what is the OY for 14 these fisheries and how well are we getting there. Are the 15 guidelines for instituting the Act, are they allowing us to 16 actually manage fisheries, allowing you to manage fisheries, in 17 a way that optimum yield is actually achieved on a long-term 18 basis? 19 20 NS-2, conservation and management shall be based on the best 21 scientific information available, I think, from my perspective 22 and Luiz -- I can speak for the two of us and maybe perhaps the 23 SSC, but I think we feel that now the scientific recommendations 24 that are coming out of that body -- Clearly they have a little 25 more sway, because of the restrictions set with us estimating 26 OFL, as well as ABC being part of the process in the SSC. 27 28 I think perhaps the best scientific information available, NS-2, 29 has a higher probability of being used, but as we're seeing 30 around the country, the more information we have, the less 31 uncertainty we have and so it's really encouraging to me to see 32 the numbers of fishing groups participate in the process and 33 really demand better information coming out of both from 34 academic circles and agencies, such that we have the best 35 information available and the best actually is solid, good, 36 defensible information. 37 38 Lastly, I would just like to acknowledge several folks that I 39 did discussions with and whom I formed some of the opinions of 40 this. Obviously anything in the talk is the responsibility of 41 Luiz and me, but several folks actually contributed to the ideas 42 here. 43 44 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Will. We've got a couple of minutes 45 for questions and not a whole lot and so I'll try to hold it 46 down. 47 48 MR. PERRET: Will, very fine job and thank you. Could you go to 23 1 Slide 9? King mackerel was under a great deal of discussion way 2 back when and we were getting, on an annual or even more 3 frequently than that, scientific information relative to TAC and 4 ABC and that sort of thing and the council considered all that 5 and yet went with more liberal take for a period from 1985 and 6 for eleven straight years, yet we rebuilt an overfished stock. 7 Can you give us a little explanation as to -- We continued, 8 quote, unquote, to go over TAC, sometimes almost as much as 9 three times the suggested TAC by the scientists, yet we rebuilt 10 that fishery by doing that for a period of eleven straight 11 years. 12 13 DR. PATTERSON: Uncertainty. 14 15 MR. PERRET: Should we be uncertain for other species? 16 17 DR. PATTERSON: What's not shown here are the full assessments 18 and there were several years of very strong recruitment in age 19 zero fish. One thing that's highly uncertain in all of these 20 assessments, typically highly uncertain, is the stock recruit 21 relationship. 22 23 When stocks are fished down to very low levels, they can go 24 through periods of incredibly high recruitment, depending on the 25 shape of that function. What we saw in king mackerel is that 26 case, where some very strong recruitments -- If you look in the 27 mid-1990s, there were actually a couple of cases there where 28 strong year classes came through and the panel recommended that 29 catch be decreased because they were followed by a couple of 30 years in which the recruitment dropped off. 31 32 The fear in those later years was always that the productivity 33 of the population could nosedive, given the fact that the stock 34 was basically being prosecuted on small, young fish. 35 36 MR. PERRET: Yes and from 1997 or 1998 on, landings are well 37 below the TAC and so there are a lot of things that are involved 38 insofar as the fishery and why those landings are below and I 39 suspect market and a lot of other things have a lot to do with 40 that, but I do agree science is certainly a lot better today 41 than it was twenty or so years ago and hopefully it will 42 continue to get better, but thank you very much for your 43 presentation. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We're just going to take one more, because we 46 need to stay on schedule and we have a lot of testimony. 47 48 MR. GILL: Will, thank you for that presentation. There was a 24 1 lot of information in very short order. Corky was down there at 2 the hundred-foot-level and I would like to ask a question from 3 the 30,000-foot-level. 4 5 Do you see, relative to National Standard 1, which basically 6 talks about optimum yield from each fishery as though it was 7 independent from one another, any serious talk and perhaps 8 traction amongst some community, be it the ecosystem folks, be 9 it the science community, be it the political arena, thoughts of 10 changing that to recognize the interrelationship between all 11 fisheries and hence, the ability to achieve optimum yield on an 12 individual basis may not be the best way to go? 13 14 DR. PATTERSON: There's clearly language in the Act that talks 15 about ecosystem components and management in that regard. I 16 think that the framework to implement the ABC and ACL control 17 rules for single stocks obviously has been the focus in the 18 early stages and I haven't been really involved in that except 19 at the SSC level here in the Gulf. 20 21 However, in other regions of the country, ecosystem management, 22 that can be defined very loosely and broadly, but ecosystem 23 management and ecosystem concerns are incorporated into stock 24 assessments and into the management to a much greater extent 25 than we've done here in the Gulf for sure. 26 27 I think if you -- An example, I was talking to Ron Lukens 28 earlier about the most recent menhaden assessment on the east 29 coast and so they tried to incorporate predator-prey 30 interactions with bluefish and weakfish and striped bass and so 31 there's an example kind of in our backyard about these ecosystem 32 types of considerations and how OFL, for menhaden in that case, 33 might incorporate some of these predator-prey dynamics from 34 other stocks. Yes, I think that's important. It's not 35 something that we've done a very good job of to this point, but 36 I think it's coming. 37 38 MR. GILL: Thank you and I understand that, but I was trying to 39 get to the point of a change in National Standard 1 that would 40 incorporate that. On the one hand, you talk about ecosystems 41 and on the other hand, National Standard 1 tends to imply 42 single-fishery management and so for that to be coming together 43 would imply a change in National Standard 1 and that's the 44 direction that I'm wondering if you see any traction in that 45 direction. 46 47 DR. PATTERSON: I have no ideas as to what the thoughts are 48 among the delegations as to what the next reauthorization may 25 1 look like in that respect. I think any time you take a piece of 2 legislation and you write out some of the old stuff and you add 3 new stuff that sometimes you get sort of a clumsy marriage and 4 that might be something that we're seeing here, is we're dealing 5 with the old National Standards, but a new emphasis and so some 6 of that has yet to be worked out. 7 8 I think you also see that in the very extensive guidelines that 9 have been issued by the Fisheries Service as far as implementing 10 National Standard 1, because of some of the things that were 11 implied but not specifically stated in the Act and some of the 12 things that could have been more prescriptive in the Act that 13 weren't, we end with a 200-page document to try to come up with 14 a consistent way to implement the Act and I think some of that 15 probably could have been avoided. 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Will. We are going to have to move 18 on, but we do greatly appreciate the presentation. Let me tell 19 the public what we're going to do on public testimony. I know a 20 lot of you are very interested in the snapper season, the 21 possibility of a reopened snapper season this fall, and so I'm 22 going to ask Dr. Crabtree and Andy Strelcheck to give a little 23 bit of introduction on what we can and can't do and what might 24 be possible and what might not. Roy, perhaps you first? 25 26 PRESENTATION ON 2010 SUPPLEMENTAL RECREATIONAL RED SNAPPER 27 SEASON 28 29 DR. CRABTREE: Thanks, Bob. We have approximately 2.3 million 30 pounds of quota that we estimate has not been caught and so 31 there is enough fish available to reopen the fishery. We have 32 an emergency rule, proposed rule, that is in the comment period 33 now that would allow us to reopen the fishery after September 34 30th. 35 36 We already have authority to reopen the fishery before September 37 30th and so this would give authority to reopen it after 38 September 30th. I think the council is in good shape to make a 39 decision if they want to have a fall fishery. We just need to 40 figure out how many days. 41 42 There's been interest or a lot of people have asked about 43 carrying the unused quota over to next year and there is 44 currently no provision in the rules or the fishery management 45 plan to allow us to do that. 46 47 If the council wanted to do that, they would have to undergo yet 48 another rulemaking and I think that the way that would happen 26 1 would be through a regulatory amendment and you would have to 2 take the estimate of what was caught this year and what's left 3 over. 4 5 Likely it would have to be the final estimate and so we probably 6 wouldn't have those numbers until late this year or early next 7 year and then we would have to add that to the TAC for next 8 year. Before we would be allowed to do that, we would have to 9 go back to the council's Scientific and Statistical Committee 10 and they would have to essentially give us another fishing level 11 recommendation for next year that was higher than the one that 12 we have now, because we are not allowed to set the catches 13 higher than the level recommended by the council's scientific 14 advisors. 15 16 That probably would not happen until very late this year or 17 sometime next year and I don't know what their response to that 18 would be. We have had a number of overruns of the quota in the 19 past and we have not paid those back from the following year and 20 I suspect that a number of people would raise issues about 21 carrying unused quota over to the next year. 22 23 I think what folks need to understand is while this is possible 24 to do, there are an awful lot of people who would have to agree 25 to this before it could happen and that probably wouldn't happen 26 until next year. 27 28 If we get to that point next year and the scientists say no, we 29 don't think this is right and we don't think this makes sense or 30 if other people within NOAA decided that, then it would be too 31 late for a fall fishery at that time and those pounds would 32 essentially be left in the water. 33 34 While that is a possibility, it carries a risk and I cannot 35 assure anyone whether that can or cannot be done. I believe 36 there are a number of obstacles, but if that's what the council 37 wants to do, we'll try to do it, but I think there are a number 38 of hurdles that would have to be overcome in order to do that. 39 40 The other issue that's come up has been one about could we 41 reopen on weekends and Andy Strelcheck presented a presentation 42 earlier this week that indicated that we could have somewhere on 43 the order of thirty-nine days of fishing, but that was based on 44 fishing seven days a week. 45 46 Andy is going to give a presentation in a minute looking at 47 weekend effort relative to weekday effort, because historically 48 weekends have had higher levels of effort than weekdays have. 27 1 You're going to have to take that into account and if we're 2 going to reopen weekends only, which I think we can do, the 3 total number of days you're going to get is going to be less 4 than if you reopen seven days a week. 5 6 Now, there are a lot of uncertainties in all of this. We are 7 kind of on new ground here, given the concerns with the oil 8 spill and everything else, and it's very difficult for us to 9 predict how much effort there's going to be when this fishery 10 reopens. 11 12 We're having a hard enough time figuring out when to reopen, 13 because I think the council wants to ensure that when we reopen 14 the fishery that most of the closed area is gone, so that folks 15 in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and the remainder of the 16 Florida Panhandle have an opportunity to go fishing. 17 18 I think Andy is going to talk about that. The other issue that 19 people are interested in is greater amberjack and we have the 20 landings numbers through the end of June on recreational greater 21 amberjack and Andy is going to show those to us as well. Does 22 that cover the issues, Bob? 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think so, Roy. Andy, if you're ready, you 25 have a variety of topics and you have about thirty seconds to 26 cover them. 27 28 MR. ANDY STRELCHECK: With such an important issue, I'll hope 29 you'll give me a few more minutes than that. I wanted to go 30 back through the data that we had provided back with Amendment 31 14/27. 32 33 I recognize this is fairly outdated at this point. With 34 yesterday's discussion, obviously I didn't have time to rerun 35 estimates through today's date, but the bottom line is this 36 gives you an idea of weekend versus weekday landings of red 37 snapper prior to when we started shortening the season from 194 38 days down to these short quota closure periods. 39 40 What you can see is that it's about 65 percent of the landings 41 were coming in on Saturdays and Sundays versus 35 percent of the 42 landings on weekdays and so there's obviously more effort, more 43 landings, on weekends than weekdays, which would result in a 44 shorter season if in fact you decided to have weekend openings 45 only. 46 47 I present Saturday and Sunday and I know you discussed Friday 48 through Sunday as a weekend. This was the data available 28 1 several years ago when we looked at it. Flash forward to 2010 2 and obviously we've had an oil spill and we've had changes in 3 effort. I can't run the estimates with the Recreational 4 Statistics Survey, but I did look at the headboat data and what 5 you can see here is it's still consistent. 6 7 Catch rates are higher on weekends than weekdays and I'm 8 defining weekends now to include Friday. There was a bigger 9 difference for headboats in the western Gulf than in the eastern 10 Gulf. 11 12 If it was proportional between weekends and weekdays, taking 13 into account the differences in the number of days, you would 14 get roughly a distribution of 42 percent of the landings coming 15 in on weekends and 58 percent of the landings coming in on 16 weekdays and so anything that deviates from those percentages 17 indicates that there's more or less landings coming in during 18 those timeframes. 19 20 This is data going back to a 2006 report I produced for 21 Amendment 14/27. Once again, it's showing that a greater 22 proportion of landings are coming in on weekends than weekdays 23 and that's obviously going to affect catch rates and reduce the 24 length of the number of days the fishery could be open if you're 25 only opening up weekends. 26 27 What I guess was not surprising to me is that the proportional 28 landings on weekends was higher for private vessels than it was 29 on charter vessels and so charter vessels are running more trips 30 during the week and landing more catch proportionally to their 31 weekend trips compared to private vessels, where it's probably a 32 lot more landings occurring simply because people are off work 33 on weekends and going fishing on a Saturday or a Sunday or 34 taking off on a Friday. 35 36 With all that, this is a fairly complicated table, but what I 37 wanted to give you a sense of is the uncertainty that we have in 38 these estimates. If you look at across the top, there's 120 39 percent scaled back down to 50 percent. What that is is the 40 relative effort that we would expect this fall compared to the 41 summer peak relative effort. 42 43 That's an effort scaler. Obviously the less effort you expect 44 to occur, the lower the catch rates are going to be and the more 45 days the season can be open. 46 47 Going down the two left-hand columns, that's essentially the 48 proportion of landings that are occurring on weekends versus 29 1 weekdays and I'm defining these as the three-day weekends that 2 were suggested. I put in there the kind of darker blue box is 3 kind of where I really personally believe things are going to be 4 at during this fall season. Effort is probably going to be 5 somewhat less than 100 percent of the relative effort during the 6 summer months, but it could be as low as 50 or 60 percent of 7 that effort, given historical information and trends in effort 8 and weather conditions. 9 10 In terms of the weekend landings versus weekday landings, that 11 range right there encompasses the information I just presented 12 you, what we know about headboat landings coming in right now, 13 and the bottom line is the number of days ranges anywhere from 14 sixteen to thirty-seven, but you can see that simply going to 15 weekends will be less than that thirty-nine days. If you 16 presume that effort will be as high as the summer effort, then 17 that thirty-nine days quickly shrinks to somewhere between 18 sixteen and twenty-two days. 19 20 If you back off the effort level some and expect it to be down 21 because tourism is going to be less and areas are still going to 22 be closed to oil and weather conditions and you name it, then 23 the season length, say under the 60 percent effort level, will 24 be twenty-six to thirty-seven days and so there's certainly a 25 range. 26 27 This all encompasses some of the ideas that were being tossed 28 about during committee discussion of a twenty-one-day weekend 29 season up to a thirty-three-day weekend season, starting in 30 September or October. I just wanted to present that as kind of 31 the plausible range, but certainly there's a tremendous amount 32 of uncertainty here. 33 34 DR. CRABTREE: Bob, if I could just throw in a couple of things. 35 Andy, this is based on last year's catch rates, is that correct? 36 37 MR. STRELCHECK: That's correct. 38 39 DR. CRABTREE: Bear in mind we've had a big area closed for a 40 while now. My guess is the catch rates are going to be higher 41 than last year and my guess is the fish will be somewhat larger 42 next year and so bear that in mind. 43 44 The other thing to bear in mind is we are scheduled to raise the 45 TAC again next year and raise it yet again the following year, 46 but our ability to raise the TAC is dependent on not going over 47 the TAC this year and so if we have an overrun this year, we 48 lose fish next year and we lose fish the year after. We all 30 1 need to keep that in mind when we're looking at this. 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Let's move on, because, again, we have a lot of 4 public testimony. Andy, you have something on amberjack? 5 6 MR. STRELCHECK: Yes and this is the last slide I have. 7 Amberjack landings were delivered about three hours ago. The 8 May/June landings came in at 542,000 pounds, which puts total 9 landings this year at a little over 900,000 pounds. 10 11 We do exclude the Keys from this. This estimate includes the 12 Keys right now, but that typically amounts to 4 to 10 percent of 13 the landings and so a fairly small amount, but then this 14 estimate also doesn't include Texas or headboat landings, 15 because those haven't been delivered. 16 17 Right now, we're looking at 75 percent of the quota being met 18 through the end of June. We had originally projected, prior to 19 this season, that the quota would be met the end of August. We 20 appear to be on track, based on historical landings. The trend 21 is that about 25 percent comes in during July and August and so 22 we're looking at another in-season closure of the greater 23 amberjack recreational fishery. 24 25 I just wanted to update you on that. I know you're talking 26 about the framework action and would obviously encourage the 27 public to provide input in terms of that particular action. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Andy. Let's go ahead and move on 30 into public testimony. We have somewhere near a hundred cards 31 and so I would ask council members to please be brief in your 32 questioning of the presenters. I also ask the public that are 33 going to testify -- I'm going to read the first name and then 34 the person that will follow them and so the second name person, 35 if you would please be ready. I think we have a chair over 36 there to sit while you prepare for your testimony. We'll start 37 off with Daryl Carpenter, to be followed by Mike Eller. 38 39 PUBLIC TESTIMONY 40 FINAL FRAMEWORK ACTION FOR GREATER AMBERJACK 41 42 MR. DARYL CARPENTER: My name is Daryl Carpenter and I'm from 43 Louisiana. I run out of Grand Isle and I represent the 44 Louisiana Charterboat Association. On the amberjack issue, we 45 have polled our membership and in looking at the closures that 46 were presented with the options of the March/April/May and 47 May/June and July/July options, the majority of ours came back 48 as a March/April/May closure. 31 1 2 We've talked before about the Gulf being managed as a whole and 3 I know it's a difficult job for you all, but there's economic 4 factors that drive this thing from the eastern side of the Gulf 5 to the western side of the Gulf and a lot of ours on the central 6 Louisiana coast is a summertime fishery. 7 8 It's a summertime recreational or vacation-type crowd and 9 closing it in June and July, we feel like it would just severely 10 damage any chance we had of putting together a productive 11 season. With the red snapper season being where it is and two 12 fish per person with the distances we're traveling and with the 13 fuel expense and just the expense of the trip itself, knocking 14 the amberjack out -- It's a large fish for a lot of our people. 15 It's a trophy fish and it's something they want to go after. 16 17 If we lose that during our June/July season, it's going to be 18 something -- It's going to be very hard for us to continue to 19 sell those midlevel trips, where people can not quite afford to 20 go chase tuna, but they want to do something more than just fish 21 the beach for the inshore species. If we have a say in it, 22 we're asking for the March/April/May. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Daryl. The next speaker is Captain 25 Mike Eller, followed by Bob Zales. 26 27 MR. MIKE ELLER: Mike Eller, co-president of the Destin 28 Charterboat Association, my twenty-ninth consecutive year of 29 fishing in the Gulf. I'm a commercial fisherman and a 30 recreational fisherman. 31 32 I guess in Destin we would have to go just the opposite of what 33 Louisiana needs and in the summertime, we have lots of fish to 34 catch. In the springtime, we don't have lots of fish to catch 35 and in the future, we're not going to have groupers to catch in 36 the springtime it sounds like. 37 38 If we don't have amberjacks in basically March, April, and May, 39 there's not a whole lot for us to catch. There will be a little 40 bit of grouper fishing, but obviously no red snapper fishing and 41 so it is an important fishery to us in the springtime. In the 42 summertime, there's lots of other fish for us to go chase, 43 offshore fish and things like that. 44 45 Amberjack is a pretty hardy fish and very low bycatch mortality 46 even in deep water, because it's a mid-water fish. Also, I 47 wanted to point out that in northwest Florida, in our area, we 48 have very little effort shifting to amberjacks. You either 32 1 catch amberjacks or you don't catch amberjacks. 2 3 Amberjacks are fifteen to eighteen miles offshore and you either 4 have a boat that goes out there or you don't and so when red 5 snappers are closed and things like that, we don't see a big 6 huge effort shifting. The way it works is you go out and you 7 get your amberjacks on the first stop and you're done with those 8 for the day. It's one per person and it's no big deal. You 9 either catch amberjacks all the time or you don't and so we 10 don't see a lot of effort shifting. 11 12 If we had to pick our poison, we would probably much rather have 13 those fish in the springtime and in the fall, for that matter, 14 than we would in the middle of the season. Thank you. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mike. Bob Zales, followed by Chad 17 Hanson. 18 19 MR. BOB ZALES, II: Bob Zales, II, President of Panama City 20 Boatmen. Amberjack, I'm going to be a little bit different than 21 both of them. I don't want a season at all. I want them left 22 at one fish for all year and I've got a little bit of concern 23 about the numbers we just saw. 24 25 When you're looking at May and June, we're hearing snapper was 26 down 60 to 70 percent. Robin told me yesterday that in Texas 27 their effort was down about 35 percent and I'm sorry, but you're 28 not going to have part of a quota of amberjack up here when 29 everything else is down there and so something is wrong here. 30 It's uncertainty I guess, according to Will Patterson. 31 32 I don't really think that we're going to need to see that. 33 We're scheduled for a little bit of an increase next year and I 34 think we're probably below, way below, what we could do this 35 year and it's like Mike Eller said and you hear of effort 36 shifting. 37 38 Amberjack, we've been managing now twenty years, since Amendment 39 1, and when Amendment 1 went into place, when we started 40 fishing, amberjacks were generally your first stop of the day 41 and it always has been for twenty years and it hasn't changed. 42 Because you're not getting snapper or grouper, you're not doing 43 jacks and it just doesn't happen. I don't see the problem there 44 and I appreciate Corky asking the question about kingfish, 45 because I agree with you a hundred percent. 46 47 That uncertainty that I argued about for more than twenty years 48 on king mackerel, we still got to where we needed to be. It 33 1 took us a little longer than what we probably could have done, 2 but we got there and to me, that's what matters. Thank you very 3 much. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bob. Again, for council members, if 6 you do want to ask a question, you're free to do so, but let's 7 do keep it limited. Chad Hanson, followed by Mike Graef. 8 9 MR. CHAD HANSON: I have a statement that I prepared comments 10 that covers three subjects and do you mind if I do all three and 11 that way I just come up here one time? 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If you can do it in three minutes. I'm not 14 going to give you nine. 15 16 MR. HANSON: No, that's my intent. Good afternoon, Chairman 17 Shipp and council members. I'm Chad Hanson with the Pew 18 Environment Group. While we're thankful that the oil spill in 19 the Gulf has been halted, this disaster will have implications 20 for the Gulf ecosystem and fishery resources that won't be fully 21 understood for at least several years and possibly longer. 22 23 Going forward, there's ample reason to proceed with caution. 24 For red snapper, the oil spill occurred during and in the 25 vicinity where red snapper spawning occurs and overlaid much of 26 their important juvenile habitat in the northern Gulf. The 27 discussion of whether and when to reopen the red snapper 28 recreational season should take this uncertainty into account, 29 as well as the inability to hold recreational catch to 30 prescribed levels in the recent years. 31 32 There has been discussion about limiting the open days to the 33 weekends. If the council chooses to go this route, you should 34 consider that these are likely the days, as Andy had presented, 35 where the highest effort does occur. 36 37 Another factor to consider is that off of Florida's Gulf coast, 38 where red snapper overlaps with the gag fishery, particularly in 39 October or November, when there's a peak in that recreational 40 fishery for gag, there's a high potential for increased red 41 snapper landings at this time and that should be also taken into 42 account. 43 44 Finally, carrying over any excess of the 2010 quota in the 2011 45 fishing season is bad policy and sets the wrong precedent. In 46 the past several years, the substantial overages in the 47 recreational sector have not been deducted from the following 48 year's catch, as recommended by National Standard 1 Guidelines 34 1 for plans that are under rebuilding. 2 3 Therefore, when determining the length of a season, for the 4 second red snapper season this fall, we urge the council to 5 factor all these into consideration and provide an adequate 6 margin of error and not go to the full amount of days that were 7 presented. 8 9 For gag, we believe that the interim rule should proceed as 10 recommended by the Reef Fish Committee, with the caveat that we 11 share concerns about gag discards, particularly in the 12 commercial fishery. 13 14 There are several factors that we urge the council to consider 15 when finalizing this action. First, there are significant 16 differences in how and where the recreational and commercial 17 fisheries operate. The recreational fishery largely targets 18 smaller female gag closer to shore, whereas the commercial 19 fishery targets the larger fish offshore, which typically are 20 where the males occur and where discard mortality is higher. 21 22 Protecting these larger fish, which are or become the males, is 23 key to ensuring the reproductive potential of the population. 24 Second, gags spawn during the winter and into the spring months 25 and allowing any commercial harvest during this time on these 26 spawning aggregations may further exacerbate the declining 27 population level and the low number of males in particular. 28 29 If any commercial quota is released early in the year, it's 30 important to steer the fishery away from these spawning 31 aggregations and into areas where large males occur as much as 32 possible. 33 34 Additionally, it is likely that much of the spawning area for 35 gag will be closed for at least the duration of the spawning 36 season when Amendment 32 is finalized and so it makes sense to 37 incorporate these considerations into the interim rule. 38 39 Finally, we recommend that in considering any seasonal closures 40 for greater amberjack that the spawning time overlap with the 41 commercial season and any issues associated with potential gag 42 and red snapper and amberjack bycatch during the various open 43 and closed seasons should be analyzed and factored in. Thank 44 you very much for considering these comments. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Chad. Mike Graef, followed by 47 George Pfeiffer. 48 35 1 MR. MIKE GRAEF: Thank you all for letting me speak this 2 afternoon. A couple of things about amberjack. Last year, when 3 the season was shut down, I think it coincided with the shortest 4 snapper season we had ever had, seventy-four days. I knew that 5 Dr. Crabtree was tracking the total poundage caught and we met 6 our quota I believe right around July 23rd. Is that correct, Dr. 7 Crabtree? Okay. 8 9 I was kind of dumbfounded though when I heard that we're at 75 10 percent of the total allowable catch for this year already. 11 It's pretty incredible. In Destin, I personally -- My boat was 12 in the Vessel of Opportunity Program for thirty-one days. 13 14 I actually fished eighteen days of this year's snapper season, 15 but at the height of the Vessel of Opportunity Program, there 16 were eighty-five Destin boats and some of those boats were in 17 the Vessel of Opportunity Program for seventy-five days and so 18 to think that we're at 75 percent of the amberjack total 19 allowable catch for this year is very, very hard for me to 20 believe. That's all I've got to say. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. We're going to now start the 23 testimony that deals with the possible reopening of a fall 24 snapper season and what we've had staff do is put up on the 25 screen some of the different options that were discussed in 26 committee yesterday, in case you weren't here, and so there's a 27 variety of different options and we will start with George 28 Pfeiffer, followed by Randy Boggs. 29 30 2010 SUPPLEMENTAL RECREATIONAL RED SNAPPER SEASON 31 32 MR. GEORGE PFEIFFER: I'm George Pfeiffer and I'm a member of 33 the Orange Beach Fishing Association and I'm a commercial 34 fisherman and a recreational fisherman. I've been doing 35 business here for about thirty years. 36 37 I believe as far as the red snappers are concerned for the fall 38 season -- I would like to see a season with opening it back up, 39 as long as we don't go over it. I don't want to have any kind 40 of penalty going into next year's season. I think this is the 41 first chance we've had to actually catch up on our overage, 42 since we've been penalized for it so many years in a row. 43 44 I hate that the oil spill happened, but at least it has given us 45 a chance to come back with that. I would naturally like to see 46 it added on next year, but I don't think that's possible, with 47 everything considered and like you said, with the time schedule 48 of looking at all the information. 36 1 2 As far as red snappers, I would like to try for some this 3 season, if possible without going over. On the amberjacks, I 4 believe that in our area I would like to see it opened in 5 March/April/May, that kind of area. 6 7 In our area, the snappers are not open and we do a lot of 8 overnight fishing trips and if we could get our federal waters 9 open, where we could get back out where we catch amberjack out 10 here, it would also facilitate us to catch the tuna fish and 11 stuff that we rely on on our two-day trips. 12 13 Therefore, that would facilitate a good season for us starting 14 about March. We would have something to catch then, as far as 15 the amberjack go, before the snappers open up and I'm like some 16 other fellows like in Destin. We have a lot of fish in the 17 summertime that we can catch. 18 19 I would like to see it all year long, but I know that that can't 20 happen all the time. Preferably, I would like to see amberjack 21 all year. I know that's not quite possible all the time, but 22 those are my thoughts on it and I thank you for your time. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Randy Boggs, followed by Libby 25 Fetherston. 26 27 MR. RANDY BOGGS: My name is Randy Boggs and I apologize for my 28 voice. I've got laryngitis and so I'm really struggling to 29 speak and so I'm going to run through this real quick. I had 30 several different things. 31 32 I don't support breaking the Gulf into different zones. I don't 33 think that would be of benefit to anybody. The fall snapper 34 season, I would love to see the weekends only, three days a 35 week. That would benefit the recreational fishermen and the 36 commercial fishermen. The October opening would give us time to 37 book some charters and get it ready so we can book these and get 38 them out there fishing. 39 40 All the guys in Mississippi and Louisiana that have been closed 41 down, if they're lucky enough that the waters do open, I think 42 that would be the greatest benefit, not only for myself as a 43 charterboat captain, but I also operate a marina that sells 44 fuel, bait, and ice and that would give the guys from Birmingham 45 and all up from different parts of the country time to come on 46 down here and get the fish. 47 48 Another thing that I would like to talk to the council about and 37 1 I apologize because it's a little bit out of order, but I would 2 like to see the multi-passenger boats -- We seem to be 3 struggling for data and the electronic data collection, I would 4 like to see it for all the multi-passenger boats. 5 6 From what I understand, if you carry greater than fourteen 7 passenger and you take walk-on trips that we could participate 8 in the Buford headboat survey. That would get a lot better data 9 to the Gulf Council a lot faster and you're not reinventing the 10 wheel. 11 12 The paperwork is there and it would take a little bit of effort 13 on the boat captains part, but it would be a good way of getting 14 data a lot quicker. I would like to see an income qualifier for 15 all the reef fish permits and the HMS permits that identify the 16 boats for-hire that are active. 17 18 We've got a lot of latent permits out there and a lot of quota 19 that's being used in a lot of areas that's not active and one 20 thing that I'm going to bring up really quickly is there's been 21 a huge charterboat/headboat permit sale in the State of Alabama, 22 Florida, Mississippi and Louisiana to do with the Vessel of 23 Opportunity program. 24 25 These permit sales are due to people trying to qualify to get in 26 the Vessel of Opportunity and it has nothing to do with an 27 increase in fishing effort or an increase in the number of 28 fishing boats. We need to take a good close look at this so we 29 don't waste part of our quota on that. 30 31 The last thing that I want to cover is I don't support a 32 concurrent closure of any of what we consider our trophy fish, 33 red snapper, grouper, or amberjack. Fishing for what we do now 34 is more for recreation than a meat harvest. 35 36 If we have one trophy fish that we can sell the hopes of 37 catching -- I run headboats and amberjack don't figure much in 38 to my scheme of what I catch, but if there's the hope and the 39 dream that that fisherman can catch an amberjack or keep a red 40 snapper or keep a grouper at sometime during the year -- It 41 doesn't really matter to me when the season is, but don't close 42 all three of our bigger fish concurrently and that gives us the 43 hope and dream of a fisherman being able to go out there and 44 actually catch something that's a trophy. It's nice to be able 45 to catch them and take a picture, but we lose a lot of mortality 46 that way. Thank you guys very much. 47 48 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Randy. Libby, followed by Scott 38 1 Hickman. 2 3 MS. LIBBY FETHERSTON: Good afternoon. My name is Libby 4 Fetherston and I'm here on behalf of the Ocean Conservancy and 5 as usual, I have a selection of topics I would like to cover and 6 I'll try to do it as quickly as I can. 7 8 Relative to the annual catch limits amendment, we're really 9 encouraged by the council's progress, but from our perspective, 10 we would like to see this amendment move forward as it is and as 11 a stand-alone and not be held up by other Magnuson 12 implementation documents. Our understanding is that those 13 documents aren't quite as developed and we would love to see 14 this document get finalized and implemented, even if it means 15 some of the other ones aren't moving as quickly. 16 17 Also, with annual catch limits, in the National Standard 1 18 Guidelines, they define catch as accounting for all sources of 19 mortality and so we would encourage you to consider including 20 all sources of mortality in your conceptualization of catch and 21 setting catch limits. 22 23 Relative to that, we would love to see, in the amberjack 24 amendment, some discussion of how you intend to account for 25 bycatch during the closed season for the season openings and 26 also in the red snapper total allowable catch options paper, we 27 think some discussion of total mortality accounting in that 28 might be beneficial as well. 29 30 I would also like to see some Magnuson consistency language for 31 red snapper. We're still using total allowable catch and I 32 think it's quite clear we need to move to a system of annual 33 catch limits and have a discussion about accountability measures 34 that potentially include a payback for overages consistent with 35 the way the council handles other species in a rebuilding plan. 36 37 Moving down the list, I would appreciate and some of us in the 38 audience would appreciate some discussion about how we might 39 account for this enormous scientific uncertainty that's been 40 handed to us since April 20th and how that might affect our fish 41 populations and how through the council's science process we 42 might adequately account for scientific uncertainty relative to 43 the oil spill and then if there are any ways to account for that 44 in the council's management process, that might be a valuable 45 discussion to have and get some thoughts on the record and make 46 some direction either to SEDAR or the SSC, whatever the council 47 thinks is appropriate. 48 39 1 We participated in the Scientific and Statistical Committee 2 meeting not too long ago and they had recommended a SEDAR 3 assessment for data-poor species, specifically to think about 4 OFLs, and we would welcome some discussion of that. 5 6 Also out of some of the discussions, we appreciate the proposal 7 for the development of an annual catch target control rule 8 working group. We're very supportive of that and hope that 9 proceeds as quickly as possible. 10 11 We would also like to voice our support for the gag interim rule 12 and for the reassessment, to make sure this incorporates all the 13 best scientific data available. Thank you. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Libby. The next speaker is Scott 16 Hickman, followed by Mike Jennings. 17 18 MR. SCOTT HICKMAN: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the 19 council. Thanks for hearing us today. I'm Captain Scott 20 Hickman from Galveston, Texas. I've appeared before you many 21 times at other meetings and I think I know some of you and we're 22 going to basically support a lot of the same things I've 23 supported the last few months. 24 25 The first thing that I really support is sector separation and a 26 separate ACL for the charter for-hire industry. It makes a lot 27 of sense. It makes a lot of sense for the fishery and it makes 28 a lot of sense for the 60 percent of most of the people that 29 access the Gulf of Mexico reef fish complex in our coastal 30 communities that are hurting. 31 32 I support zone management in the Gulf of Mexico for the fishery. 33 I support a three-way split in zone management. I support a red 34 drum harvest in the EEZ of the Gulf of Mexico of one fish for 35 charter for-hire and recreational anglers. 36 37 The Galveston charter fleet that I represent wants the earliest 38 opening of the fall snapper season we can get. Everybody I've 39 talked to today has said the earlier the better. In Texas, the 40 weather starts turning bad in October. We start getting a lot 41 of cold fronts and football season and kids and sports, et 42 cetera. We like the Friday, Saturday, Sunday part of it. 43 44 As far as the amberjack season for next year, we support having 45 it closed April, May, and June. We want to be able to utilize 46 that fishery when snapper season is closed. I've heard some of 47 the other people talking about being able to reach and catching 48 as many amberjacks as we have and I know this -- With a 40 1 shortened red snapper season this year, the charter fleet where 2 I'm at, we've targeted amberjacks like we never have. 3 4 I've caught more amberjacks in the last two years than I 5 probably have in the last ten years, because I don't have red 6 snappers to fish for and I've got to put something in the box 7 and so it makes a little sense that we're landing that many 8 amberjacks. I know I have on my boat every day. I'll be doing 9 it again tomorrow through Monday, six per day every day. That's 10 pretty much it. 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Our next speaker is Mike Jennings, 13 followed by Jim Smarr. I want to remind council members and the 14 audience that we are not going to take a break and so private 15 breaks are certainly permissible. 16 17 MR. MIKE JENNINGS: I'm Captain Mike Jennings with Cowboy 18 Charters out of Freeport, Texas. I know quite a few of you all 19 and I appreciate you all allowing me to speak today. The first 20 thing I would like to hit on is I've got a signed letter here 21 that I would like to give to Trish after I step down that's just 22 the SOS official position on the fall red snapper issue and 23 sector separation stand on the ACL/AM. 24 25 On that note, I would like to touch on something that Dr. 26 Crabtree spoke on yesterday evening in the roundtable, where he 27 was talking to a charter for-hire fisherman, and I think all of 28 us caught it, talking to him about his six-day, six month season 29 that he wanted and he said he couldn't see that ever happening 30 under the current management plan and until we came up with a 31 new way of managing this fishery, it just wasn't going to 32 happen. 33 34 I think that management plan is in front of the council right 35 now on that ACL/AM amendment. It's sector separation and it's a 36 separate ACL for the charter for-hire sector and bring that 37 sector closer to being accountable. Make it an accountable 38 fishery. 39 40 The MSRA mandates a widespread, market-based fishery and it 41 mandates limited access programs. The charter for-hire industry 42 meets those two mandates right now and it's just common sense to 43 me that we move forward with that. I would like to see it kept 44 in the ACL/AM, plain and simple. 45 46 The only other thing I wanted to touch on was the red snapper 47 season. I'm trying to find it on that screen right there. It's 48 the motion that Robin made yesterday on the September 17 through 41 1 November 28 or whatever it is. I would like to come out in 2 support of that, that option. 3 4 I understand that there's some open water/closed water access 5 issues in the northern Gulf and so with that said, I'm open to 6 just about any of it, to be honest with you. What I mean by 7 that is if the council sees that those waters are not going to 8 be open or feels that there's no way they can be open that 9 early, it's not going to -- I don't think it's going to break my 10 heart that it opens a little bit later. My main issue on it is 11 just don't overfish it. Whatever it takes, just don't overfish 12 it and that's about all I've got today and thank you all. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mike. Jim Smarr, followed by Mike 15 Colby. 16 17 MR. JIM SMARR: Chairman Shipp and council members, for the 18 record, I'm Jim Smarr and I'm here representing the Recreational 19 Fishing Alliance, the other white meat in the fishing business, 20 I guess, as far as a conservation group or fishing organization. 21 22 As far as regionalization, in Texas -- There's been people 23 talking about differences in king mackerel and other things here 24 today and how they want seasons done. Texas strongly supports 25 and the RFA supports a Florida zone, a 26 Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama split, where those three states 27 are together, and a Texas separate zone, because we're a Mexican 28 fishery and Florida is a Caribbean fishery and the center three 29 states' fisheries are very similar. 30 31 I think with the money that BP put up, I think we can make that 32 happen as far as getting a stock assessment to make it happen so 33 that no one gets hurt. 34 35 As far as the seasons go, I talked to people all up and down the 36 coast on the proposal that Robin had mentioned, the September 37 17. We would like to see it start as early as possible and use 38 the Friday/Saturday/Sunday plan. 39 40 I think on amberjack you're seeing the same thing, as I was 41 talking about it. I made a note about that on the 42 regionalization. There's different areas east and west, where 43 the east has a group of fish they can fish for when we don't. I 44 don't want to sound insensitive, but we've had our oil spill in 45 Texas for about eight years, seven years, due to losing our 46 winter fishery over there for red snapper and it has been 47 devastating. 48 42 1 I am not happy that the oil spill happened and don't take this 2 comment as me saying now you have yours. That's not what I'm 3 saying. Now you understand how Texas has felt over not being 4 able to fish for snapper in the winter and choose our season. 5 6 The RFA and our charter for-hire people that belong to the RFA 7 do not support sector separation. They think regionalization 8 would solve the sector separation problems. The fisheries 9 belong to all of us and it goes back to the Magna Carta, as I've 10 said every time I've gotten up here. We don't want to see a 11 catch share or sector separation in the recreational sector. 12 Thank you very much for your time and allowing me to speak 13 today. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Jim. Mike Colby, followed by Gary 16 Jarvis. 17 18 MR. MIKE COLBY: Thank you, council. My name is Mike Colby and 19 I'm a headboat and charter operator from Clearwater, Florida. I 20 have talked to many operators and other permit holders in our 21 mid-state area, in our mid-Pinellas County area, simply about 22 their opinions about reopening red snapper. 23 24 Bill, I know you and I earlier breached on this, earlier in the 25 week, just as a feeler for what's going on in central Florida. 26 There are operators there that yes, would like to see it open 27 and there's operators there that would be on the fencepost or go 28 either way with it. It is not an overly contentious issue, I 29 think, with many of those mid-state operators. 30 31 When we get into our October, mid-October through November, 32 fishery, our market is demanding grouper. Our waters cool down 33 and that's when our big shallow-water grouper fishery starts and 34 those typically are much shorter trips. They burn less fuel and 35 they're higher profitable base trips for headboat and charter 36 operators. 37 38 Again, any way this council would feel to move on that issue is 39 probably not going to bring any heartburn to operators in that 40 area, but again, I agree with some prior speakers. Let's just 41 don't overfish that ACL. Thank you. 42 43 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Thank you. The next speaker is 44 Daryl Carpenter, followed by Mike Eller. I messed up. Gary 45 Jarvis is next. Sorry. He'll be followed by Daryl Carpenter. 46 47 MR. GARY JARVIS: My name is Captain Gary Jarvis, owner/operator 48 of the Charterboat Back Down II in Destin, Florida. First of 43 1 all, I support a fall red snapper season. There's a lot of 2 options up there. For me personally, and this is my personal 3 preference, not representing anyone else, I prefer the October 1 4 through October 31 opening, due to the fact it gives me time to 5 promote a fall red snapper season. 6 7 It encourages week-long visits here to fish during the week, 8 which enhances my friends in the hotel and motel business, and 9 it gives us some flexibility in case of bad weather. There are 10 certain times in the fall where we get into these bad weather 11 patterns on weekends and we've all experienced that and so that 12 allows us maybe to roll a trip over into Monday or get the guys 13 down there a day early, Thursday, if we know that we're going to 14 be facing bad weather. It gives the charter for-hire fleet a 15 little more flexibility and I think it will maximize the benefit 16 of a fall season for our hotels and motels. 17 18 My comment on the closure of amberjacks is in this business 19 we've got to have something to sell. We have to have a product 20 for our customers and so the ideal situation is when red snapper 21 is open is when amberjacks would be closed. That way, we still 22 have a product to sell our customers. 23 24 On the commercial gag grouper issue, I encourage the council to 25 release the 390,000 pounds, so we don't have a bycatch issue 26 prior to the February meeting, where you'll have your landings 27 in and you'll also be able to have a better idea of how you're 28 going to treat the commercial and recreational gag grouper 29 season. 30 31 My last comments, I'm putting on my charter for-hire fishery 32 management plan hat. This disaster exposed the weakness of the 33 system of management that we're under. It had difficulty 34 meeting the data needs in a timely manner on effort, landings. 35 It had very little flexibility on these area closures and 36 changes in seasons and we're having that problem as we speak. 37 38 We're talking about opening a second season in October, maybe, 39 or September and we still have large areas of closures with guys 40 that never got to fish for red snapper for one single day. The 41 charter for-hire success relies on healthy fisheries stocks, its 42 historical access to those stocks, and accountability tools to 43 best utilize these stocks to remain profitable and maximize 44 these resources for the general public. 45 46 The Regional Administrator has let us know multiple times that 47 the only way to increase our access as charter for-hire 48 fishermen, in a conservation-based way, is to change the present 44 1 management system. As it now stands, we have got that message 2 loud and clear. I just ask this council, have you? 3 4 There's a new idea and a new plan before you and it's now in the 5 ACL/AM Amendment and I'm requesting that you keep it there. 6 After two-and-a-half years of delays and seven or eight motions 7 that were approved, it's time now to roll up our sleeves and go 8 to work. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Gary, your time is up. Can you wrap it up in a 11 few seconds? 12 13 MR. JARVIS: Yes, I can do it real quick. Let's just do our due 14 diligence and let's work real hard between now and next spring 15 and try to help all of us increase public access to the Gulf of 16 Mexico fisheries. Thanks. 17 18 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Gary. Daryl Carpenter, followed by 19 Captain Mike Eller. 20 21 MR. CARPENTER: Again, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Daryl Carpenter 22 and I am a charterboat operator out of Grand Isle, Louisiana and 23 also current president of the Louisiana Charterboat Association. 24 Again, we did poll our membership on this issue and 25 overwhelmingly it was leave it closed on the red snapper fall 26 season. 27 28 I realize I may be the oddball in the room and hopefully I'll 29 walk out of here alive, but the fact remains that this issue -- 30 I'm not trying to cross comments here, but this issue highlights 31 not only the need or the desire to split the Gulf into 32 management zones, but also the absolute need to split it into 33 zones. 34 35 The coast of Louisiana was the heaviest impacted by this oil 36 spill. We had not been able to fish any red snapper yet and if 37 there is a fall season, there is no guarantee we will be able to 38 fish the red snapper. 39 40 I have personally been in the water, as you heard earlier, and 41 I've conducted some of the sampling and we have oil. That oil 42 is there and it's subsurface and it's going to show its head 43 periodically and I don't care what you're hearing on TV. I've 44 seen it with my own eyes. 45 46 What we had initially discussed, prior to this meeting, was to 47 see if there was any chance that we could roll this TAC over 48 into next year. I understand that that is an iffy proposition. 45 1 One of the other options that our membership discussed is 2 whenever we're talking -- You've heard everybody here say open 3 it up, but don't let us go over. Open it up, but please don't 4 let us go over, because we don't want it to affect 2012 or 2011. 5 6 One of the things that we came up with that was out of the box 7 and maybe you ought to consider is bank it. Put it in the bank. 8 If we've got 2.4 million pounds that we did not catch, put it in 9 the bank and open it up next year and stay with your current and 10 wait for a new stock assessment to come out, but if we should go 11 over that TAC in 2011, let us rely on that 2.4 million that we 12 put there in the bank. 13 14 That way, it wouldn't affect our TAC increases going forward, 15 even if it was just for that one year. We have no confidence 16 that anyone in the upper coast, anyone on the Louisiana coast, 17 is going to have any access to these fish if it is indeed 18 opened. 19 20 We can't book trips right now. BP still has everything booked 21 up. There's workers everywhere. If we started trying to pre- 22 book trips on a proposed October opening, we've got nowhere to 23 put clients and we've got no inclination that BP is going to be 24 gone. We think they're probably fixing to pack their bags and 25 just get out of the United States, but we can't do it now. 26 27 I can't book trips from all across the country on a prospect 28 that this hotel room may be open and to have someone have to 29 cancel a flight because I've got nowhere to put them. 30 31 Hopefully some out-of-the-box ideas can be done. I realize some 32 of the other areas of the Gulf want to try to salvage their 33 season. There again, off the Louisiana coast, we just don't 34 think we have a season to salvage. 35 36 The other thing that I look at in the big picture of the 37 management plan is if we leave these 2.4 million pounds here, 38 you have just advanced your management plan tenfold in 39 rebuilding the stock. 40 41 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Daryl. Mike Eller, followed by Bart 42 Niquet. 43 44 MR. ELLER: Mike Eller, co-president of the Destin Charterboat 45 Association. Our charterboat association voted by a narrow 46 margin last week to fish the remaining quota in an October 47 opening, as opposed to next year, with the caveat that if we 48 were only going to get seven or ten days -- At that point, we 46 1 really didn't know what. If we were only going to get seven or 2 ten days, we would rather see the fish pushed until next year, 3 because it wasn't going to make a big difference to us. There 4 are pros and cons each way. 5 6 We currently support the October 1 to October 31, because it's 7 our big fishing rodeo, our sixty-third year of the fishing 8 rodeo. We also support though -- If we couldn't get that, we 9 would support as our second choice the September 17 to October 10 31. That's twenty-one days, weekends only, and our third choice 11 would be September 21 to October 31. That's nineteen days. 12 13 I understand that we have less support for opening early in 14 September, like around the 17th, because of the fear that other 15 people are not going to be open and so we would be okay with 16 September 24th I actually think it is, that last weekend of 17 September. 18 19 A lot of us would like to see the fish rolled over to next year, 20 but you're not going to believe this, but they don't trust 21 National Marine Fisheries to give them those fish next year. I 22 know it's hard to believe, but they were like oh, no, if we 23 don't fish them this year, we're never going to get them. I 24 know it's hard to believe. 25 26 The pain of red snappers is kind of over with for us. We've 27 already suffered it, not fishing them and la da da da da. 28 Anything we get back, as far as I'm concerned, is going to be a 29 huge bonus. 30 31 October effort is going to be way down. If we just get back our 32 normal October people for better businesses in October in 33 Destin, Florida, twenty days, twenty-two days, twenty-three days 34 -- There's no way I'm going to get back my normal October. I 35 will be happy to get back half of it. Effort is going to be 36 very, very low. 37 38 The people that are already on my calendar for October are 39 coming whether we have red snappers or not, but it would be a 40 bonus. We would be able to increase our bookings probably in 41 the 2 to 3 percent range. I don't think people are going to 42 change their plans and rush down to Destin, Florida to fish red 43 snappers. 44 45 I see a lot of good in rolling the fish over to next year. 46 There's lots of time to market the fish, but I know that it 47 would be a bigger step to do that, because there's not really a 48 mechanism to do that. 47 1 2 Personally, I see where there's value in that and I think it 3 would actually help me a little bit better, but we'll take the 4 bird in the hand right now and we would like to fish them in 5 October. We would like to see it thirty-one days. Effort is 6 going to be very, very, very low. Thank you very much. 7 8 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mike. Bart Niquet, followed by 9 Commissioner Robinson. 10 11 MR. BART NIQUET: Bart Niquet and I've been fishing forever. 12 It's the truth. I really don't have a dog in this fight about 13 opening or closing the snapper season, because I'm a commercial 14 fisherman. 15 16 The only thing I say when you're talking about a two or three- 17 week split in management of the snapper is that may work fine 18 for the recreational fishermen, but for the commercial 19 fishermen, it won't work at all, because according to your own 20 reports, most of the commercial fishermen live in Florida and do 21 most of their fishing in Texas and Louisiana. You really have a 22 problem there. 23 24 There's two reasons for that. One is the availability of fish 25 and numerous landing sites in Louisiana and Texas and number two 26 is there's nowhere near the hassle from the so-called 27 recreational boats off of Florida that are constantly harassing 28 the commercial boats and trying to find out where they're 29 fishing at. 30 31 You've heard a lot of people, I know, in the last four or five 32 meetings talk about sector separation and making availability of 33 commercial quota to the recreational fishermen. If you'll make 34 them accountable, I, for one, would be willing to lease some of 35 my allocation to them. Thank you. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bart. The next speaker is Chairman 38 of the Escambia County Commission, Mr. Grover Robinson. 39 40 MR. GROVER ROBINSON: Thank you all for being here and welcome 41 to Escambia County and being a part of that. We've certainly 42 all felt challenges in the Gulf Coast, northern Gulf Coast, 43 region from this oil spill and we certainly have felt those in 44 Escambia County and we appreciate you being here. 45 46 I'm here today on behalf of our citizens to say, again, we 47 believe that we understand the challenges we're facing and what 48 this is doing to our local economy and a huge sector of that. 48 1 We would like to see some kind of a season open, if possible. 2 3 We understand -- We like the October season better and if 4 happens to be weekends, again, we can deal with that, what you 5 can do, but I think the issue is -- We may not have things as 6 open over our way as further over, but clearly we believe damage 7 has been done and something has to happen to help to assist 8 people in need. 9 10 We have citizens here that are feeling pinched all over and if 11 we could just do something that could help them and clearly the 12 issues of what we've got with the snapper -- We believe this 13 should be happening. 14 15 I also ask you to look more at what we're doing with snapper 16 overall and how we do that. There are and continue to be 17 challenges even without this oil spill to what was happening 18 with snapper seasons, both for the recreational fisher, the 19 commercial fisher, and the charter fisher. 20 21 All those things will continue to be here even after this oil 22 spill happens and we know you'll be in charge with making sure 23 stocks are where they are, but we would like, perhaps, to 24 reevaluate what true stocks are and how that can -- Whatever we 25 can do to make sure that we have a true sense of what our 26 resource is out there and how it affects people, because the 27 decisions you make here today, I don't envy you. 28 29 I'm going to sit there tonight and we're going to be making 30 decisions that affect thousands of people, but I think right now 31 we need some compassion to be able to deal with the problem that 32 is at hand and we need the support and your support to at least 33 have some kind of a season this year to help all of us in this 34 community and I thank you for being here and I hope you enjoy 35 your stay here in Escambia County. Thanks. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Commissioner. My apologies to Ben 38 Fairey. I forgot to alert you that you were the next speaker 39 and so Ben Fairey, followed by James Bruce. 40 41 MR. BEN FAIREY: It's certainly difficult to follow a county 42 commissioner, but I'll do my best. I would like to thank Dr. 43 Shipp, Dr. Crabtree, our council members, and the staff for the 44 hard work they do for the very difficult issues that we all 45 face. 46 47 I favor sector separation and the reason I do is because we want 48 to be accountable. As we heard yesterday, our commercial 49 1 friends want us to be accountable and it is imperative that we 2 be good stewards of this fishery and do our part. 3 4 I want to also stop the derby fishery that we experience every 5 single season. I want to not participate in overfishing and 6 reducing dead discards is the most important thing that I want 7 to try to help fix. 8 9 We talked yesterday about managing the recreational quota in 10 numbers of fish instead of pounds. I think this would be a wise 11 move. This will move us forward as we move down the line to a 12 better management system. 13 14 As for the fall season, I'm absolutely for it. I've heard a lot 15 of people talk about weekends. I would probably like to see 16 either weekends or the whole month of October, depending on what 17 the council thinks would be the best way to make sure we 18 absolutely do not go over our quota. 19 20 The other thing I would like to talk about is it's really 21 amazing to me. One minute we hear everybody saying that the 22 MRFSS data is flawed when it doesn't go their way, but when it 23 does go our way, nobody says anything and I really find that 24 very interesting. It's just an observation I had. 25 26 The other thing is on the sector separation workshop. I think 27 it's a great idea and I would really like to ask that we talk 28 about how we're going to prevent dead discards in our sector. 29 Thank you very much. 30 31 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Ben. Next is James Bruce, followed 32 by Gary Bryant. James is gone? Gary Bryant, followed by Bob 33 Zales. 34 35 MR. GARY BRYANT: Gary Bryant, full-time charter captain, Fort 36 Morgan, Alabama. I've been here for the last three days and 37 it's been very interesting and I appreciate what you all are 38 doing. I don't envy some of the things you all have to sit 39 through, but I appreciate you all doing it. 40 41 On the snapper, I would -- Personally, for me, I would like to 42 see a fall season. I'm open to the timeframe, basically. I 43 don't see an advantage or disadvantage. I am intrigued with the 44 weekend only. I think ten to twelve days would be the most I 45 would book, regardless of how long the season is. I'm figuring 46 ten to twelve days would be about all the activity I would get 47 out of it. 48 50 1 As far as amberjack, I basically need a fish to fish for and 2 something to sell my customers. I don't need amberjack during 3 the snapper season, if I had a choice. I would rather have 4 those fish to go after in the spring and the fall. I don't 5 necessarily need them as a target species during snapper season 6 for the location I fish. 7 8 I've heard some very interesting things about the sector 9 separation and I would like to hear more about that and I hope 10 you all will continue to look into it. The idea that I could 11 extend my season by possibly leasing fish from a commercial 12 fisherman, that was something I hadn't heard discussed before, 13 but anything that will allow the for-hire sector to be on the 14 water and make a living, I hope you all will continue to look 15 into it. Thank you. 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Gary. Bob Zales, followed by 18 Russell Nelson. 19 20 MR. ZALES: Bob Zales, II, and I'm speaking strictly for me on 21 this particular thing with the red snapper. I sent that email 22 out a while back on rolling the fish over to the next year and 23 that wasn't my idea. I did that because for a couple of weeks 24 prior to that, I had gotten communications from people in 25 Alabama and some in Florida asking why that couldn't be done and 26 so it seemed to make sense. 27 28 When you're looking at the best bang for the buck for the most 29 people involved along the coast, and the coast being Key West to 30 Brownsville, I and others feel like that that was the best thing 31 to do. 32 33 Clearly Daryl, in his conversation right now -- We're hearing 34 that yes, it may open up some time in September, but we don't 35 know that. We see different stories on the news every day and 36 we hear different stories from people every day. 37 38 I'm kind of on the fence on this issue because in my involvement 39 in this whole oil thing, from being on the Governor's task force 40 in Florida on down, I've been pushing very hard to get waters 41 opened as quickly as possible, but I've got some serious 42 reservations about the poison that's in the water and the amount 43 of oil that's still there that people say don't exist. 44 45 Fishermen across the Gulf, and fishermen are known for 46 embellishing stories and whatnot, but when you hear similar 47 stories from various places, there's got to be some truth to 48 some of it. Some of it is probably jacked up a little bit, but 51 1 there's a lot of truth to it and so that's cause for concern. 2 3 Whatever season you come up with, because I doubt very seriously 4 if you're going to roll it -- Daryl's suggestion about banking 5 is a good one, but if you can't open this season to where it's 6 going to benefit people that haven't been able to fish, then you 7 don't need to open it for anybody else. You need to put some 8 fairness in this. 9 10 To the sector separation and the conversations the other day in 11 committee, you were talking about a workshop in November, I 12 believe, and that's based on the fact that you've got money to 13 spend and you've got to spend it before the end of the year. 14 15 Some people probably can't make that meeting and I would suggest 16 that you not worry about your money and that you create that 17 meeting when you can get the most people for the most 18 involvement to give you the best information and advice on 19 whether or not you're going to separate a sector or not. Other 20 than that, that's it. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Question, Johnny? 23 24 MR. GREENE: I guess I'll break the ice. Bob, what's your 25 feelings on regional management? 26 27 MR. ZALES: Johnny, whenever -- I guess it was SEDAR-7 that did 28 this or it may have been 5, but I can't remember, but it was one 29 of them, when they came up and they arbitrarily picked that area 30 now to do the river to Texas/Louisiana and the other three 31 states and then you saw the breakdown from Florida and Alabama 32 and whatnot. 33 34 At that time, Alabama was 40 percent of the recreational 35 fishery. I told people then if I was from Alabama that I would 36 be pushing as hard as I could to have an Alabama fishery. At 37 that time, Florida, I think had 33 or 35 percent. I suspect 38 it's probably going to happen. 39 40 My suggestion right now, and it's kind of halfway joking, but 41 I'm seriously looking into it, is that if you're going to do 42 this that you put Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi together and 43 you leave Louisiana and Texas by itself. I'm not pushing that, 44 but that's just a thought. 45 46 The reason for that, that would be a selfish reason on my part, 47 because 75 percent of that fishery would stay to the east and 25 48 percent would go to the west. I don't think that would fly and 52 1 I really don't think it's fair, but if you're going to go down 2 that road and when you start separating, it's going to be hard 3 to develop a fair analysis for that. It's going to need a lot 4 of thought and a lot of involvement to figure out how you're 5 going to do it. 6 7 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bob. Russell Nelson, followed by 8 Tom Becker. 9 10 DR. RUSSELL NELSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is 11 Russell Nelson and I'm a fisheries scientist and I'm here 12 representing the Coastal Conservation Association. We did, 13 after a considerable discussion amongst our state chapters, come 14 up with a position that we would support a weekend, Friday, 15 Saturday, and Sunday, opening beginning in October. 16 17 We thought we could probably make it through October and 18 November at that time and in seeing some of the last analysis by 19 Andy, that's going to be up to you all to figure out how to do 20 that. I do have to say there was some sensitivity in these 21 discussions, with the chapters in the middle of the Gulf feeling 22 that they had not had any access to the resource while some of 23 those in Florida and those in Texas had, but we came up with the 24 unified position. 25 26 Let me reiterate the plea that someone made just previously and 27 I have made before. It is time to move into the middle of the 28 twenty-first century and begin setting quotas on fishing 29 mortality. 30 31 You get a stock assessment at this point in time and it gives a 32 snapshot of the stock. They say fishing mortality is too high 33 or it's too low. If it's too high, the council is told you need 34 to reduce it by 20 percent. At the same time, you're taking two 35 years to make up your decision. 36 37 Now, if the stock is flat lined, more or less stable, or doing 38 like this, you look at previous history and look at pounds 39 landed and say we'll reduce it by 10 percent, based on those 40 catches. If the stock is stable, that's more or less accurate 41 and it doesn't hurt you. 42 43 If the stock is going up, like red snapper has, and the number 44 of fish and the size of fish are increasing when you're setting 45 the pound surrogate for mortality back here and the stock, when 46 you put it in place, is up here, you end up with the situation 47 that red snapper is in, where you're actually setting it at a 48 level that is much lower than -- The poundage is much lower than 53 1 the mortality. In that case, the fishery loses. 2 3 On the opposite side of it, if the stock is going down while 4 you're making your decision, you end up using an average catch 5 from a time when the stock was higher and you set a poundage 6 surrogate that is a higher fishing mortality than you need. 7 8 A good way to get rid of a lot of the uncertainty that you have 9 with regard to management is to continue to urge the agency to 10 develop measures to allow you to set quotas and measure fishing 11 mortality and get away from having to use poundage surrogates. 12 Thank you. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Russell. Tom Becker, followed by 15 Bill Staff. 16 17 MR. TOM BECKER: Tom Becker, president of the Mississippi 18 Charterboat Captains Association. Dr. Crabtree and council 19 members, thank you for allowing us to speak today. First of 20 all, just about a year ago, I came before the council and I 21 asked for something to get done. 22 23 Our council members from Mississippi pushed this issue and I 24 want to see this move forward and that is the red drum. That is 25 a sell for the people, the fishermen, of Mississippi to the 26 customers, because they love to catch them. 27 28 We've seen them up in the morning and caught them and didn't go 29 after snapper and they were pleased. They didn't need to run 30 out there twenty-six or seventy or thirty-four miles out there 31 to catch snapper. 32 33 On the red snapper, we're in an area that it is uncertain 34 whether or not we are going to be open by the end of September. 35 Being in that corner over there, there's still a lot of problems 36 over there and we want to see -- We would like to catch snapper, 37 but if it is open for October, we can sell it to our customers 38 and that's what we would like to do. We may get some down, but 39 that's bow season and deer season is the next month and the guys 40 are starting to do that and so it's going to be weekend drive-in 41 traffic for us. 42 43 The opening day, we would like to see it October 1 to the 31st. 44 We cannot predict the weather as of September 15 and if you have 45 a three-day season at that time and you lose that day, we're 46 right back to square one. We've lost all summer that we have 47 not been able to go out in the federal waters. 48 54 1 Sector separation is definitely no and we do not believe in 2 that. That will actually hurt us, we believe, in Mississippi. 3 The zones, those are things we're looking at, but right now we 4 say no to the zones. 5 6 We are one of the smallest catch, but we are one of the smallest 7 states as far as catching them and so we're not going to get 8 just about anything and our people want to catch fish also. We 9 don't want any zones that would limit me to the number of fish 10 that I can catch. Thank you. 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Tom. Bill Staff, followed by Jeff 13 Shoults. 14 15 MR. BILL STAFF: My name is Bill Staff and I run the Sea Spray. 16 I'm the owner and operator. I've charter fished for thirty 17 years. That's the only way I make my living, 100 percent of it. 18 I would like to thank you all for letting us express our 19 feelings. I would really like to thank Donny Waters for that 20 great meal last night. It was very good. 21 22 If federal waters are opened, I'm for October 1 through October 23 31. I pulled some calendars out back when we used to fish 24 twelve months, the good old days, might I add. My October was - 25 - The November/December was only one-fourth of what I did in 26 October. The football and the weather and hunting and 27 everything, et cetera, it shuts it down. 28 29 I just feel running straight through would give us the most days 30 and keep the threat of going over from happening. I promote the 31 old adage of a bird in hand. Also, I need some sanity. I want 32 to go fishing and I want to catch something if the waters are 33 open. 34 35 I can't imagine being able to watch a college football game and 36 catch a snapper on the same day. It's been a long time, but 37 there again, I am for running it straight through the month and 38 I've talked to a few of the businesses around my marina, Orange 39 Beach Marina, and they're definitely for opening the month of 40 October. J&M Tackle, I talked to John and he said the same 41 thing. Jeff Hardy at the Birkenstock Sand Dollar, a retail 42 business, exactly the same thing. 43 44 My second topic is sector separation. The status quo has put us 45 in a corner. My business last year was the worst it's ever 46 been, a 40 percent reduction from three to five years prior, and 47 what's happening is not working and so I'm for the sector 48 separation and hopefully it will give us some days we can use 55 1 when we want and allow us to maximize our days using the 2 resource we have that is so abundant. 3 4 As far as the fish count, I'm for counting fish instead of 5 pounds. Amberjack, I'm with basically everybody in Orange 6 Beach. Let us have something to sell. If snapper season is 7 open, we don't need amberjack and vice versa. Daryl, I've come 8 to Louisiana eight years and I'm going to open my arms to come 9 to you to come to Orange Beach and burn some of our fuel and 10 stay in some of our hotels. We've got room for you, buddy. 11 Come on in October. Anyway, I appreciate it, guys, and thank 12 you all. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bill. Jeff Shoults, followed by 15 Mike Rowell. 16 17 MR. JEFF SHOULTS: I'm Jeff Shoults and I'm actually a private 18 boat captain. I am a recreational angler. I make my living 19 from fishing, running a boat for a corporation. My corporation 20 has owned a boat for thirty years in Destin, Florida. We take 21 clients of the company fishing. 22 23 I normally run between 120 to 150 days a year, as much as most 24 of these charterboats and probably more than some of them. The 25 red snapper is starting in June -- My people don't pay a dime to 26 get on the boat and if I can't catch an amberjack and I can't 27 catch a snapper, they won't come. They're not paying anything 28 to be there and so these charterboat guys really have no chance 29 if you all close amberjack season and snapper season at the same 30 time. 31 32 As far as snapper season this year, October 1 to the 31 would be 33 great, because the way it sounds, we're going to lose amberjacks 34 before then and so at least we would have something to catch in 35 October. 36 37 As far as sector separation, I don't agree with it. Like I 38 said, I'm a recreational angler and I'm not a charter for-hire. 39 I would like to see accountability. That seems to be the 40 problem. As recreational angler, I would put a logbook on my 41 boat if I have to, a tagging program. Some form of 42 accountability for the recreational sector needs to be done, but 43 I don't think sector separation is the way to go about that. 44 That's about all I've got to say and thank you. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Jeff. Mike Rowell, followed by Mark 47 Kelley. 48 56 1 MR. MIKE ROWELL: I'm Mike Rowell and I have the Charterboat 2 Annie Girl in Orange Beach. As far as sector separation, I 3 would like to see -- I would like to look more into that. I'm 4 leaning a little bit that way now and I would like to see more 5 discussion on that. 6 7 As far as red snapper season, I believe that most people have 8 heard from Dr. Crabtree and others that it would be very 9 difficult to roll the snapper over to next year and if they had 10 not heard that, they would have a different opinion. I'm kind 11 of old school and I don't believe in it can't be done. I hate 12 hearing that, when people say we can't do it, we can't do it. 13 14 Now, nobody said we couldn't do it, but it would be there's a 15 lot of uncertainty. Well, there's also going to be a lot of 16 uncertainty with this year if -- It's not necessarily 17 uncertainty of opening snapper season, but who will be able to 18 access those red snapper. 19 20 If we're not all going to have equal access to it, because some 21 of these federal waters are closed, then I think it should stay 22 closed and I would much rather see the fish moved to next year 23 or at least try, because the economy has been bad for everybody, 24 everybody in this room and everybody in the country, and I just 25 think it would be a great shot in the arm to try and move these 26 fish to next year. 27 28 The TAC would be raised and we wouldn't be facing any type of 29 situation where we may overfish and lose fish next year. Also, 30 the management system has been using -- I keep hearing the words 31 that we're using caution and precaution and we don't want to go 32 over and all that and what about us getting sick from eating 33 these fish? There's still a lot of uncertainty about what we're 34 looking at with this oil spill. 35 36 I know everything that's coming in right now is looking good and 37 I'm optimistic and I hope it stays that way, but why rush? If 38 we can't take an unprecedented situation like the oil spill and 39 bring all these people in, thousands of people, sampling all 40 these fish and all this effort to get these waters back open, 41 why can't we take the same amount of effort and look at rolling 42 these fish over to next year? 43 44 There's no reason not to do it except that there's not a way to 45 do it and I don't see any other reason why it would hurt the 46 fish. Thank you very much. 47 48 MR. TEEHAN: Thanks for coming and testifying. You heard Roy 57 1 and if we roll over, there's a great amount of uncertainty and 2 not even a certain amount of uncertainty. Given that and the 3 alternatives that are on the board, what would you select out of 4 what we have up there or some modification of that, for opening 5 this year? 6 7 MR. ROWELL: I wouldn't pick any of that. I'm not for that. 8 9 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mike. Mark Kelley, followed by Jack 10 Conzelman. 11 12 MR. MARK KELLEY: My name is Mark Kelley and I'm from Panama 13 City and I represent three charterboats, two of which have 14 commercial permits. I've been in the business for about thirty 15 years. 16 17 First, on the snapper ordeal, of course I would like to see the 18 poundage rolled over into next year, but I understand that's not 19 a -- It's not an impossibility, but it is. We've heard that 20 it's going to take forever and I'm for a sure thing. 21 22 On this for-sure thing, if I was going to take anything, I 23 wouldn't take anything up there. I would take a September -- 24 The beginning of September, the first weekend in September, a 25 Friday and Saturday and Sunday opening, through October, which 26 would give us about twenty-four days. 27 28 I think the fellow said we needed to be between seventeen and 29 twenty-six days. On a perfect scenario of a business that has 30 been in a decline for the last three years, I would doubt very 31 seriously if we reach the quota. In case some of you don't 32 know, we're going through the worst economy we've ever been in. 33 We're dealing with the worst regulations in the fishing industry 34 we've ever dealt with and then we have a BP crisis. 35 36 I know the first of September would not be a fair opening to the 37 people to the west of Panama City, but a lot of things that's 38 come out of this council has been far from fair and so that's 39 where I stand on the red snapper fishery. 40 41 The amberjacks, I beg to differ with that 75 percent of the 42 quota reached by the end of June. I find that very hard to 43 believe. Here we are on the eastern end of the oil spill and in 44 the month of June, we had, I would venture, 85 to 90 percent of 45 our fleet is in the Vessel of Opportunity operation and so we've 46 got maybe five boats, at the most, that are in the fishery 47 fishing, much less the small boats not being there. 48 58 1 One other thing is I'm for a June and July closure on the 2 amberjacks and I am against sector separation until I can see 3 what me and my business would get from the sector separation. I 4 can't agree with something without knowing the terms. Thank 5 you. 6 7 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Jack Conzelman, followed by Michael 8 Sullivan. 9 10 MR. JACK CONZELMAN: My name is Jack Conzelman and I am a 11 fisherman in Panama City. I started in Fort Myers Beach in 1968 12 and I've been in Panama City since 1974. I started a live bait 13 business in Panama City nineteen years ago and I've been in that 14 business ever since. 15 16 Bait, as you know, is going to be very affected by this oil. 17 I'm scared to death after what happened in Alaska. I have no 18 clue what's going to happen to my future. My business relies 70 19 percent on the charterboat business. That's where I sell 70 20 percent of my live bait, which is mainly cigar minnows. 21 22 I was instrumental in getting the live bait business started in 23 Destin, Pensacola, and Orange Beach. Some of them failed and 24 some of them didn't. I'm still in business in Panama City. All 25 of my customers this summer, of course, are working for the 26 Vessel of Opportunity program. 27 28 I'm for rolling it over until May. Until Mr. Crabtree so 29 gracefully opened snapper in June a couple of years ago, my best 30 month was May. Every year, May was my best month. If we could 31 somehow get it done -- I know he's done a lot of things that he 32 said he could never do and he ended up doing it. 33 34 If he could ever roll that over to May and give us a chance to 35 fish in May, it would mean everything to me. Opening in 36 October, I'm through. The water gets too cold and the bait is 37 gone and I'm out of business every year anyway, even when 38 snapper was open until October 31. I'm out of business the 39 first week of October. 40 41 If I had to choose, opening in May would be the best thing to 42 do. Next year, both for hotels, restaurants, charterboats, 43 everybody would benefit from being able to open it next May. 44 45 I think everybody is worried about this oil. We don't know 46 what's going to happen to us. I'm scared to death and I've got 47 two commercial boats also, but when I'm driving my kids to a 48 ballgame and my priority is to get to the ballgame on time and I 59 1 get sideswiped by a BP tanker truck and I'm lying in the ditch 2 and my family is bleeding to death, now my priorities are when 3 is the ambulance going to get there and take us to the hospital. 4 5 There's a lot of families throughout the Gulf that are lying in 6 the ditch bleeding to death and we're counting on you folks to 7 bring the ambulance. Thank you. 8 9 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Before you leave, I'm just kind of curious. 10 You said you're in the live bait business and live cigar 11 minnows? 12 13 MR. CONZELMAN: Live cigar minnows and that's what else bothers 14 me too, is because I'm throwing a cast net every day, forty to 15 sixty times a day, in the water and I'm scraping it on the 16 bottom in the sand and I'm hearing all these reports of the 17 dispersement and people getting sick and dying and I'm throwing 18 these nets over my shoulder and so are my nephews and I'm scared 19 to go fishing this year. 20 21 If we opened it in May, the people in Louisiana and everybody 22 would have access to the snapper fishery and I would know a lot 23 more data about -- I don't know that I'll go catch bait in 24 September and October, because I'm scared. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Jack. Michael Sullivan, followed by 27 Billy Archer. 28 29 MR. MICHAEL SULLIVAN: I'm Mike Sullivan, owner/operator of a 30 charter/commercial boat. I was in favor of rolling the quota 31 over to next year, because it would be beneficial for everybody, 32 until I heard what Dr. Crabtree said earlier in this meeting, 33 which we may lose it all. 34 35 In that case, I'm for getting the weekends, getting the most we 36 can. The weekends are going to be better for everybody's 37 business. Right now, none of us have any trips and so we're 38 going to scrape and scrap just to get two or three trips a week 39 and we all know people are going to come on the weekends before 40 they go during the week. 41 42 I'm for starting as early as possible, earlier in September, and 43 going to the end of October. In the past years, we've never run 44 very well in November and December and so get what we can now. 45 That's pretty much that and then on the amberjack, I'm 46 definitely for closed June and July, if we have to close it all, 47 but definitely June and July. We have snapper and king mackerel 48 and all the other migratory fish that time of the year, where 60 1 spring and fall we don't have anything. That's it. 2 3 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Thank you very much. The next 4 speaker is Billy Archer, followed by Henry Hunt. Billy Archer? 5 The next speaker is Henry Hunt, followed by J.C. Fanning. 6 7 MR. HENRY HUNT: My name is Henry Hunt and I'm a charterboat 8 owner and operator out of Panama City. I've had my own business 9 for thirty-four years. The comments I would like to make would 10 be the possibility of rolling snapper over until next year, like 11 the other comments. 12 13 I know there's a risk of doing it and it would probably be more 14 fair for everybody in the Gulf of Mexico to do that if the 15 council could assure everybody that they would do that. That 16 way, everybody would open up the same time next year and we 17 would have a little more fish to catch and we would have a 18 little longer season and we could fish in May, weekends, and so 19 if there was accountability that we didn't go over our 20 allocation again. 21 22 If the only preferred alternative is opening in September, I 23 would recommend that the council look at opening it as soon as 24 possible, the first of September through October, fishing 25 weekends only. This would give us roughly twenty-eight days, if 26 we went the first of September through. Like he said, we have 27 somewhere between sixteen and twenty-one days or something like 28 that. We don't want to go over. 29 30 That's the main thing, is we don't want to go over allocation, 31 because we've been held accountable for it. Fortunately, we 32 haven't been penalized, but we see the future that our seasons 33 are getting shorter because we have gone over. That's how we're 34 penalized. Our season doesn't run the full length that we need. 35 36 Amberjack, I would rather see it closed in June and July, 37 because the springtime fishery, the April and May season, if 38 we've got trips, that's a fish that we can catch of some size 39 that people want to catch and eat. 40 41 Sector separation, I do not want to see it until somebody can 42 show me figures as to what I will get in my business. I asked 43 the council before what is the poundage of red snapper that have 44 to be in the Gulf of Mexico before they are considered rebuilt 45 and can raise the level of fishing and there's not anybody that 46 has ever even made the comment of what the exact poundage is. I 47 don't see how you can go with the assumptions you do as to 48 overfishing and accountability and the stock level. 61 1 2 I would like for somebody sometime to give me an exact figure 3 and then give me the figures of what's out there. There's more 4 fish today than there's been in fifty years, but we don't -- We 5 get more, but we get less as far as the season. I think that's 6 probably about it and I appreciate your time. 7 8 MS. WILLIAMS: When you said you do not support sector 9 separation until you know what you're going to get, you're 10 talking about the TAC that the for-hire sector would get between 11 theirs and the private recreational? Is that what you meant? 12 13 MR. HUNT: Right. That's what I would like to know, is what 14 percentage are we talking about? Yes, we're in a commercial 15 entity as we sell trips to take recreational people fishing that 16 either don't have a boat or don't want to bring their boats down 17 here to go fishing and so we're in commercial recreational. 18 19 Well, there's a lot more recreational private out there than 20 there are charterboats. We've been limited with the moratorium 21 on permits and the number of permits has decreased over the 22 years. There's less charter permits today then there was five 23 years ago, but when you go to doing the figures, do you go with 24 the numbers or do you go with the amount of fish caught? 25 26 You don't have enough data to justifiably say that the charter 27 has caught more than the recreational and so you're going to 28 give a little bit more to the charter. Until you can produce 29 numbers that we can look at and justify it to say yes, we can 30 run our businesses -- It's just like this snapper thing. 31 32 Right now, like I said, I've been in business thirty-four years, 33 but as soon as the oil thing happened, I called some people, 34 what few people I had, up until probably the first -- Well, it 35 was about the middle of July, the trips that I had booked. I 36 wasn't in business thirty-four years because I had another 37 source of income. Charter fishing has been my livelihood for 38 thirty-four years or longer than that, because I started working 39 deck. 40 41 I don't have a trip on my books today beyond tomorrow. I've got 42 a half-day trolling trip. I don't have a trip on my books and 43 so unless I can call some people and get them to come when this 44 snapper thing opens, which I would say possibly I can two or 45 three trips, but my business -- Luckily, the majority of us here 46 with charterboats go to work in the Vessel of Opportunity 47 Program and I'm sure the vessels west of us have gotten to work 48 longer than we did in Panama City. 62 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Hunt. J.C. Fanning, followed by 3 Bill Coursen. Is J.C. Fanning here? Bill Coursen, to be 4 followed by Pam Anderson. Is Mr. Coursen here? Pam, I guess 5 it's you. Pam Anderson, followed by Joe Nash. 6 7 MS. PAM ANDERSON: Dr. Crabtree is not here. Chairman Shipp and 8 council members, I'm Pam Anderson with Captain Anderson Marina 9 in Panama City Beach. I thank you for allowing this public 10 comment period here today. 11 12 There are several issues I want to touch on. First of all, with 13 so much going on in recovering from the oil spill, I would 14 prefer the council delay the workshop for sector separation 15 until after the first of the year. I would request that this 16 important and controversial issue stand alone in the council 17 process and not be a part of another amendment. 18 19 We need lengthy workshops and discussions on this subject so 20 everyone, all the stakeholders, are fully involved in this, 21 because it is going to make a big difference in their 22 businesses. 23 24 I realize that there has been a lot of discussion regarding red 25 snapper management in regard to dividing the Gulf into regions 26 and grouper to follow, but there needs to be a lot more 27 discussion. 28 29 I've had folks asking questions in the hallways and in here of 30 will this pit one area against one another and will commercial 31 fishermen still be able to fish the oil rigs in Louisiana if 32 they are from Panama City and will Pensacola anglers be able to 33 fish in Alabama and many other questions such as that need to be 34 answered. 35 36 As far as expedited stock assessments for 2012, due to the need 37 before the oil spill and the need due to the oil spill, I 38 believe there will be no problem having funding allocated for 39 these if you do not already have that in place. I'll be glad to 40 request such funding from our legislators, whom I already know 41 want these assessments as soon as possible. 42 43 As Mr. Teehan said, we are working in Florida on a reef fish 44 endorsement proposal with the FWC. We want you to have the 45 additional data you need from the recreational sector, but with 46 as little cost and time involved as possible. Our economy needs 47 our anglers, our private anglers as well as our for-hire 48 anglers, all in the recreational sector. 63 1 2 We need to keep this as simple as possible. With this 3 endorsement, you will have a database of reef fish anglers, 4 something you have never had. We plan to incorporate harvest 5 data collection into the program. We are proposing it with a 6 small fee and we prefer not to have fish tags. 7 8 Lastly, regarding the extension of the red snapper season, I 9 would like to see the opening be as soon as possible, Labor Day 10 if possible, be on three-day weekends, Friday through Sunday, 11 for eight weeks, which would be most of the September and 12 October months. 13 14 As you can see from the paper I have given you, when business 15 has been good in the fall, guest counts are less than a third of 16 what they are in June and July. We do not expect this year to 17 be any different, even with the additional publicity. The 18 economy is down and so not as many people will be able to take 19 advantage of the special events that the coastal communities are 20 planning, but we desperately need to deal with the public 21 perception that our seafood is tainted and our beaches are oily 22 now, right now this fall, so that we do not have to wait until 23 next year. This will be a means to that end. 24 25 Hurricanes, or the threat of them, are always the issue in the 26 fall. If we are limited to one month, a consecutive thirty 27 days, and a hurricane season comes in that month, it's going to 28 greatly reduce the days that they're allowed to fish. I thank 29 you for this time. 30 31 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Any questions for Pam? Joe Nash, 32 followed by Tom Steber. 33 34 MR. JOE NASH: My name is Joe Nash. I'm a charterboat 35 owner/operator for the Cool Change Charters in Orange Beach, 36 Alabama. I've been fishing out of there since 1987. About the 37 amberjacks, just something real quick, 75 percent of the TAC, 38 apparently with very little effort. 39 40 I believe if you look at the snapper landings versus what the 41 jack landings are, you may want to look back and try to increase 42 the TAC on that. I think that's the problem we have with most 43 of our fishery, is the TAC issue. We're working on issues that 44 the TACs were set extremely low and we do this, I guess, for a 45 conservative method. 46 47 Just for simple numbers, in the 1990s, we were allowed to catch 48 seven fish per person and we take ten people fishing and we 64 1 catch seventy fish and they averaged about two pounds apiece. 2 That's 140 pounds and you add the crew, because back then you 3 could add the crew, and now you have 168 pounds and you could 4 fish 365 days a year. I used to fish 200 days a year. 5 6 You take now, ten people, you catch with the same ten people, 7 you catch twenty fish and the average size is about five pounds 8 apiece and you get a hundred pounds. That's a 68 percent 9 difference and you can only fish fifty-three days out of the 10 year. You can't tell me that effort has gone up that high. 11 12 We've got to reassess this. Science -- The guy with the charts 13 today, is anybody here lost on that? It's bells and whistles 14 and this is real, real facts. We would take at least maybe one 15 year and just weigh every fish that comes across the dock and 16 you're going to notice -- That's why we want to support the 17 sector separation, so we can be accountable. That way, you can 18 see what we're catching every day and you'll know what we're 19 catching every day and you'll see that the TAC was so wrong. 20 21 Like Donny Waters said yesterday, we were catching fifteen or 22 twenty-million pounds of fish before the TAC was ever really 23 imposed or actually we had measurements when we caught it. That 24 was the issue, the TAC is way too low. Just keep that in mind 25 and I would like to see that, because if you really look at it, 26 ninety-two-and-a-half percent, that's what it comes out to. 27 That's what we were cut, ninety-two-and-a-half percent. We're 28 working on seven-and-a-half percent of what we actually were 29 catching back in the 1990s and that's because of management of 30 the fish and they got bigger. 31 32 It's the same number of fish out there or increasing in numbers, 33 but the size is getting much bigger and so the biomass, you call 34 it, is just kind of -- It's something that's hard to comprehend. 35 Other than that, I favor the season for the fall, whatever you 36 would like to let us have. That would be great. 37 38 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Joe. Tom Steber, followed by Jerry 39 Anderson. 40 41 MR. TOM STEBER: I'm Tom Steber and I'm here representing the 42 Orange Beach Fishing Association, Zeke's Charter Fleet, and the 43 Alabama Gulf Coast Chamber of Commerce. The first and number 44 one issue that came across as this meeting has gone, to me, is 45 that there is a huge need to divide the Gulf. 46 47 It would not be fair to just leave Louisiana out or Mississippi 48 out or Orange Beach out because the oil is still offshore. It 65 1 would not be fair. There's got to be a way to separate it and 2 have accountability for each area. There's been several 3 suggestions and a lot of them sounded good to me. 4 5 The number one issue that I have is that we need a spring 6 snapper season. In the tourist business, those people that come 7 down to fish in our area don't care what they're catching. They 8 don't care if they're catching vermilion or trigger. 9 10 We need fish and we do need a trophy fish, but we need snapper 11 in the spring, whether it's the middle of April or the first of 12 May at the latest. We need it in the spring. You could 13 separate it and have a month-long snapper season and then have 14 amberjack for two months and then have snapper season again and 15 it would work. There's a lot of opinions on that. 16 17 The third thing is about the fall season. If everybody is open, 18 we should have a fall season. If big parts of the Gulf are not 19 open, we don't need to have a fall season. Thank you. 20 21 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Tom, hold on just a second. 22 23 MR. TEEHAN: Just real quick. If everybody is open, what would 24 you recommend as the fall season? 25 26 MR. STEBER: If everybody is open, I would recommend probably 27 the month of October. 28 29 MR. MCKNIGHT: What about amberjack? What were you thinking 30 about amberjack for next year? 31 32 MR. STEBER: Like I said, it needs to be opposite of snapper and 33 we need snapper in the spring. It would make more sense to have 34 amberjack in the summer, which, again, each part of the Gulf is 35 different and so it just goes back to that it needs to be zoned. 36 37 MR. MCKNIGHT: You're saying you want amberjack closed during 38 June and July? 39 40 MR. STEBER: No, I want amberjack open during June and July and 41 snapper season -- Snapper season first and then amberjack and 42 then if there's some more time, have some more snapper season. 43 44 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Tom. Jerry Anderson, followed by 45 Joanne McDonough. 46 47 MR. JERRY ANDERSON: Jerry Anderson, Panama City, Florida, for- 48 hire sector, party boats. I'm in favor of the weekend openings 66 1 and September and October. The problem I've got with everything 2 is here we are again, guessing at what's going to happen in the 3 future on this short season coming up. Are we going to go 4 under? Is all the data right? It's the same situation it's 5 always been and it's going to forever be this way until we get 6 accountability for our for-hire sector at least. 7 8 I am for sector separation and I am totally for ACLs for the 9 for-hire sector and I'm for whatever it takes for all of us to 10 become accountable so we can count our fish on a one or two-day 11 basis and we know what we're doing and you all can manage this 12 fishery like it needs to be done. Thank you. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, sir. I would ask all of you all in 15 the back that are carrying on conversations, if you would, just 16 step outside a little bit. It's starting to raise the level of 17 noise. Joanne McDonough, followed by Tom Ard. Is Joanne 18 McDonough here? She's not and so Tom Ard, followed by James 19 Stone. 20 21 MR. TOM ARD: I'm Tom Ard and I've been a charterboat captain in 22 Orange Beach for a long time and president of the Orange Beach 23 Fishing Association. Everything I have to say today is pretty 24 much my own personal opinion. 25 26 First, we've got to have better accountability. I don't trust 27 any of the surveys and formulas about this amberjack. It's 28 crazy and I want to see it in black and white. I want to see 29 fish counted. How are we going to do that? I don't know and 30 you tell me. 31 32 Right now, we have the SOS plan out there and I would like to 33 look into that and if there's other plans that we can have 34 better accountability, I would like to look into that also, but 35 what we've got right now is the same we've always had and I 36 don't believe it. I don't believe it works. 37 38 No same season for amberjack and snapper. I would like to see 39 snapper season early. I would like to see it back in April and 40 May. That's when amberjack spawn and we could have snapper 41 season then and we could amberjack season after they spawn in 42 June or July or later. That's just me personally and 43 everybody's business is different. 44 45 We always need a trophy fish. What everybody said here is true. 46 We've got to have either snapper, grouper, or amberjack open at 47 all times for a trophy fish, so we have something to sell. 48 67 1 I would love to see the quota on snappers rolled over to next 2 year so nobody can come and say you caught too many and you're 3 over your quota and I would say, hey, look, I've got two-million 4 pounds and why don't we just use some of that? I would love to 5 see that, so they can't come back to us and say we caught too 6 many fish, because really you can't count them anyway, because 7 you don't have no accountability, but anyway. 8 9 Redfish, I would love to see redfish back open. Why not? One 10 fish per person and three or four a boat, why not? Let's get on 11 that. I would love to see that. 12 13 I've got something on the snapper season. If there's no way we 14 can roll it over and we're going to have a snapper season this 15 fall -- This is something that no one has talked about and I'm 16 going to talk about it and let's just throw it out there on the 17 table. 18 19 Why don't we have a snapper season from Thanksgiving to 20 Christmas? Most all the waters should be opened up and so 21 everybody would probably have a good shot at doing it. You 22 ain't got no tropical weather to deal with and you have plenty 23 of time -- You could probably even get your cities to put money 24 in so we could really push this, to advertise and get the people 25 to come down here for Thanksgiving and Christmas. There's 26 plenty of advertising and there's more vacation days around 27 Thanksgiving and Christmas. 28 29 People has had time to go deer hunting and get a little bit of 30 football season in. People come to these resort places anyway 31 at this time of year and I think it would be great. Actually, 32 probably your weather is probably better November to Christmas 33 than it is October, if you really look at it. That's just my 34 opinion and I would love to see you look at it. Thank you very 35 much. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. James Stone, followed by George 38 McKinney. 39 40 MR. JAMES STONE: Thank you, council, for allowing us to speak 41 on these topics. I'm a charterboat captain out of Pensacola 42 since 1991. I've heard a lot in the last five or six years 43 about overfishing in the Gulf and I really think we need to 44 address over-management rather than overfishing. 45 46 On May 26 of this year, I took seven agents from FWC, Fish and 47 Wildlife, Florida, out on a tag sampling trip. We caught and 48 tagged 244 red snappers, 278 fish total. There were thirty-four 68 1 of those 278 fish that were not red snappers. 2 3 I'm really afraid that with all this management that these red 4 snappers are squeezing out the other species. That's seven red 5 snappers to one other species. Now, the species we're talking 6 about, vermilion snapper, lane snapper, gray snapper, porgies, 7 grouper, triggerfish, scamp, tilefish, I'm seeing fewer of all 8 of them. 9 10 As for sector separation, I am not for it at this point. I'm 11 one of the people that had a 200-pound permit that I could catch 12 200 pounds of red snapper per day and I was allowed 168 pounds 13 per annum the first go-round and I said it was not worth it and 14 I let my permit go and it really -- It's amazing. 15 16 On that tagging trip that I just mentioned, with the efforts of 17 the deckhand and the girl that was measuring and taking the data 18 on the fish, we lost one red snapper to mortality that was gut 19 hooked and all the rest of them swam away with tags in them. 20 Again, I appreciate you allowing us to speak on these subjects 21 and thank you again. 22 23 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, James. George McKinney, followed by 24 Matt Griffiths. Is George not here? Matt Griffiths. Matt will 25 be the last speaker on the snapper season. 26 27 MR. MATT GRIFFITHS: I'm Matt Griffiths and I'm a hotel owner in 28 Panama City Beach, Florida. I'm here representing the Florida 29 Restaurant and Lodging Association today. The Florida 30 Restaurant and Lodging Association has 10,000 members in the 31 State of Florida. It's a $57 billion industry and it's 20 32 percent of Florida's economy and we work hand-in-hand with 33 charterboat captains and fishermen here in the State of Florida. 34 35 We're in strong support of a second red snapper season this 36 fall. We would love to see October 1 to the 31. It allows us 37 time to market this second season and it's easier to manage. 38 It's a conservative number, we feel, and it prevents overfishing 39 again. 40 41 This allows the closed areas right now to reopen and it gives 42 more time to get rid of the stigma right now that's out there. 43 There's still a fear of oil. 44 45 There's been reports coming out from the University of Georgia 46 and the University of South Florida that maybe the oil is still 47 there. I don't think we all -- Nobody knows the truth and I 48 think that opening it too soon doesn't help anyone. I think 69 1 give it a little bit more time and give it another month and it 2 will relieve some of those fears. 3 4 I've got a quote from Mike Anderson in Tampa, Florida. He's the 5 host of the Real Animals fishing show that airs in thirty-nine 6 markets and he's a charterboat captain that depends on 7 recreational fishing and he is in strong support of an October 8 fishing season for this year, for the second opening. 9 10 His concern is bad weather in November that could prevent maybe 11 some of this second season that would be closed down due to the 12 bad weather that usually happens in November. In Tampa, in his 13 area, that time of year, you've got to travel up to a hundred 14 miles to reach the red snapper fishery. 15 16 In my discussions with him in Tampa, people in my area in Panama 17 City, and other hoteliers in the Destin area, which obviously 18 covers a lot of the coast of Florida, we are all in strong 19 support of the October fishery. I appreciate your hard work on 20 this and if you have any questions, let me know. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Let's go to some other topics. Pete Barber was 23 next. 24 25 OPEN PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD 26 27 MR. PETE BARBER: Mr. Chairman and council members, my name is 28 Pete Barber and I'm the president of the Alabama Seafood 29 Association. As far as the number of members we have, I don't 30 know. We haven't counted how many have killed each other 31 fighting over the VOO program. 32 33 I came to speak against the present ITQ program. It, to me, is 34 a good idea on paper that hasn't worked on the water and hasn't 35 worked for the general fishery. It's worked very well for 36 certain fisheries. 37 38 Historically, a fisherman will prosecute the fisheries he's 39 involved in and when he decides that he can no longer do it, he 40 has the permit and he has a vessel and he has fishing gear and 41 he sells that and that's his 401K. What we've done with the 42 ITQs now is the individual shares have replaced that. Right 43 now, a boat with a permit without a share is interesting if you 44 can ski behind it. 45 46 We've created a classic have versus have not scenario and going 47 back to the analogy of the VOO program, the people that are 48 doing well are doing very well, but we have to look at it as a 70 1 total fishery and from my perspective, what I look at is the 2 sustainability of that fishery. What happens after today's 3 participants are gone? How do we get the new fishermen into it 4 in a way that makes it economically sensible to them? 5 6 What we've really created here is several, if you will, or many 7 National Marine Fisheries Service. The enterprising individuals 8 that have taken advantage of the system and I -- God bless them 9 and there was an opportunity there and they took advantage of it 10 and more power to them, but it's time to deal with what's 11 happening out there. 12 13 We need somehow -- If your quota was low, for whatever reason, 14 and you wanted to catch more fish, you go to say Fisherman W, 15 who has a large quota, and he leases to you. If the dockside 16 price is four-and-a-half dollars on snapper and you pay two-and- 17 a-half or three dollars for X amount of pounds, you're fishing 18 for a dollar-and-a-half to two dollars for something that's 19 worth four-and-a-half if the fishery was open to you. 20 21 I'm not sure that that's -- Fair is a terrible word. You can 22 define it almost any way you want to, but my problem with the 23 whole thing is basically I'm worried about the ability of a new 24 young fisherman to get into this fishery. 25 26 Those shares, as you've heard the charterboat people saying that 27 they would lease shares from shareholders. That's great and the 28 shareholders, God bless them, but it doesn't do anything to help 29 new fishermen -- 30 31 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Pete, can you wrap it up? Your time is up. 32 33 MR. BARBER: I can. That's my basic concern, is to keep the 34 fishery viable and going and I would make an analogy of a 35 publicly held resource held by the federal government, like the 36 oil and gas leases offshore, which those are being bought. 37 We're giving public resources to people to basically own for 38 nothing and I have a problem with it. 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Pete. George McKinney was out and 41 he wants to speak and he will be followed by Jim Clements. 42 43 MR. GEORGE MCKINNEY: Thank you, Dr. Shipp, and thank you, Dr. 44 Crabtree and all the members of the council, for the thankless 45 job that you do. The first week of June in 1953, I took my 46 first red snapper from the Gulf of Mexico on a partyboat named 47 the Dreamland out of Panama City. 48 71 1 The summers of 1958, 1959, and 1960, I commercial fished as a 2 thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen-year-old kid out of Panama City. 3 Bart, who spoke to you recently, in the summer of 1961 was the 4 skipper on Captain Anderson Number 8 and took me on my last 5 partyboat trip before I left to go to the Air Force Academy. 6 7 In the intervening years, I have made literally thousands of 8 trips, headboats and charterboats and private boats. In the 9 last ten or fifteen years, I've been mostly fishing small boats 10 out of the Pensacola area. 11 12 I know that you have a thankless task. Along the way, I got a 13 psychology degree and one thing they taught you is that there's 14 not always a right and perfect solution for every problem. 15 We're certainly faced with that. The problem was caused by the 16 oil spill and the ramifications were felt most heavily in the 17 areas that were closed in the EEZ. 18 19 I was always puzzled why the federal government closed 20 recreational fishing. Commercial, I could understand. There is 21 a requirement to ensure the safety of the commercial food 22 source, but I never thought that it was incumbent upon the 23 federal government to protect me from myself if I wanted to go 24 out there and catch a fish and didn't have enough sense to tell 25 whether it was fit to eat or not. 26 27 We now have quota that we can allocate to those of us who did 28 not get to fish. Personally, I would like to see that quota 29 allocated between 85°30' and 90°30' west, because that's the 30 area that was closed, and I would like to see some 31 accommodations made to the people who have small boats who might 32 hazard themselves by venturing forth in the rough weather we're 33 likely to have in October. All this assumes that the EEZ will 34 be open to fishing during these time periods. 35 36 I think the case can be made for allowing a double limit on 37 small boats under thirty-three feet with five or less people 38 during the thirty-day opening, the 1 to 31 of October. 39 40 I understand there are a lot of folks in this room that have 41 spoken to you that make their living from this business and I'm 42 familiar with the term "monkey boat" and the amount of effort 43 that would accrue from doing that to the small boat operators 44 would be very minimal and I would suggest that during that same 45 opening to give the charterboat/headboat folks something and 46 that you allow the captain and mate to keep their limit during 47 that brief opening where we're trying to harvest the quota that 48 was left over. 72 1 2 I know that we're pushed for time and there are several other 3 things that I would like to address in this issue, but, again, 4 my thanks to the council and my vote would be for the 1 to 31 5 October opening. 6 7 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, George. Jim Clements, followed by 8 Jack Golden. 9 10 MR. JIM CLEMENTS: My name is Jim Clements and I'm a commercial 11 fisherman from Carrabelle, Florida. I've been coming to these 12 council meetings for years and I've served on two advisory 13 panels and I've always stood up for the preservation of our 14 fishery resource. 15 16 I had a few recommendations in Amendment 32 that I wanted to 17 work with this council on and there are irrelevant now. What is 18 relevant is that all commercial fishermen may be unduly 19 penalized by this council. 20 21 On Tuesday, the Reef Fish Committee passed a motion to implement 22 an interim rule that would shut down the commercial gag grouper 23 fishery for at least four months so that additional data 24 furnished by observers can be factored into a revised stock 25 assessment. 26 27 First of all, this data collected by the observers represents 28 less than 1 percent of the total fishing trips in the Gulf. You 29 can't take such limited data and extrapolate it and make a good 30 management decision. I thought an interim rule puts the 31 preferred alternatives of an upcoming amendment in place until 32 the amendment can be passed and become law. 33 34 The proposed interim rule the committee passed is not that at 35 all. It is an emergency rule when there is no emergency. If 36 the commercial sector cannot keep the gag grouper that they 37 catch, all these fish will be discarded and many will die. 38 39 Amendment 32 is already cutting the present gag quota by 75 40 percent. If gags are in that bad shape, the 90,000 pounds may 41 not be caught anyway. If this happens, there will be no 42 discards and the public will be able to eat these fish instead 43 of them being thrown back dead. 44 45 Cutting the gag TAC to zero is much too drastic. I urge you to 46 stick with the 390,000-pound TAC in Amendment 32. If the 47 revised data shows that gags are in further trouble, then adjust 48 the TAC in 2012. 73 1 2 The council should stick with that assessment and set the 2011 3 TAC accordingly. Don't wait on a limited amount of data 4 furnished in the last two months and then set the TAC mid-year. 5 This is not consistent with the accountability measures used in 6 the past. 7 8 I urge this council to use the 390,000-pound TAC for 2011. If 9 you don't, you're doing a disservice to American consumers with 10 no benefit to the gag grouper stock. Thank you. 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Jim. Jack Golden, followed by Jim 13 Smarr. Jim is going to forego his and so he'll be followed by 14 Bobby Spaeth. 15 16 MR. JACK GOLDEN: Beautiful. We can get out of here. I came 17 here not believing that I would hear stuff like this gag grouper 18 thing. It's a total shock. You took 40 percent once, which you 19 all know about. I don't have to give you the numbers. You know 20 the numbers. 21 22 You're also going to take 80 percent this year and now you're 23 talking about possibly closing it. I just don't understand it 24 and I don't see how you can do it, but I know you can, but I 25 don't see why you would want to do it, because this is going to 26 kill the industry. It's going to kill the fish houses and it's 27 going to hurt everybody. Nobody gains in this deal. 28 29 You're going on data that you don't really have. You're going 30 on future data, if I'm correct. If I think I hear what I'm 31 hearing -- You can see I've got a hearing aid and so I'm not too 32 sure, but this is what I was told, that you want to do this on 33 future data. 34 35 I'm also for the separation of commercial and recreational. I 36 don't see where one has got a whole lot to do with the other and 37 if you've got to be accountable for what you catch and what you 38 do and I think we all have to be accountable for any of our 39 actions and I think we've got to come up with a solution to do 40 that and I'm all for that. I don't know what you people are for 41 or whether you're for or against. 42 43 You know we've had a lot of disasters here in the last few years 44 and maybe some people don't realize, but years ago, we had this 45 red tide and that did a lot of damage to us, bait fish and so 46 forth. Then last year we had the turtles and that was another 47 kick in the butt for us and now we're talking about the gags and 48 we're not even being reasonable, in my opinion, in what you're 74 1 talking about doing, possibly doing. It doesn't make sense. 2 3 I don't know why I'm staring at you when I say all this, because 4 I'm sure you probably don't have a lot to do with it, but I 5 always pick one person to look at and, Bob Gill, that won't 6 work. Anyway, that's all I've got to say and I think you've got 7 to think about these things before you make those kinds of 8 decisions, you know? Thank you. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I'm used to being stared at. 11 12 MR. TEEHAN: I agree with you about staring at Bob Gill, but 13 besides that, the gag grouper issue, let me throw a couple of 14 options out at you. Right now, the Reef Fish Committee has said 15 close everybody, recreational and commercial, and don't -- 16 17 MR. GOLDEN: Who says this? 18 19 MR. TEEHAN: The Reef Fish Committee that voted on this 20 yesterday or the day before. Would you be -- How would you feel 21 about a partial release of the commercial quota in January or a 22 gradual monthly release of the quota, as opposed to no release 23 at all? 24 25 MR. GOLDEN: You know we went to IFQs here and we thought that 26 if we got an IFQ and we got a program that we were going to be 27 able to catch our IFQs and now you're basically saying no, you 28 can't do that and so I don't know why we got into the IFQ 29 program if you're not going to let us catch them. 30 31 We've had a big reduction. Think about the reduction we've had 32 for the gags we've caught over the years and now you're saying 33 we took 40 percent and now we're taking 80 more this year, come 34 January, an 80 percent reduction. If I had 10,000, what do I 35 end up with, 2,000? I'm only saying it's ridiculous and now 36 you're talking about possibly a few thousand this month -- Is 37 that what you're saying? Then another thousand next month or 38 what -- I'm not sure what you're really saying. 39 40 MR. TEEHAN: I'm just talking about this period until February 41 or whenever it is that this reassessment is going to be done. 42 Instead of releasing no gag grouper TAC in January, would you 43 prefer -- I'm sure it's a stupid question and I'm sure you would 44 prefer a partial release, say 40 or 50 percent of the TAC, or a 45 monthly release of the TAC, based upon historical landings. 46 47 MR. GOLDEN: I don't think you should take anything. I don't, 48 because we've got our IFQs and I think you should let us catch 75 1 our IFQs, because you don't have anything that says that the 2 assessment is -- What you're saying is without any proof yet. 3 You're going on the if-come. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Bob Spaeth, followed by Mike Colby. 6 7 MR. BOB SPAETH: Thank you, council members. What concerns me 8 quite a bit is the sector accountability. It's different from 9 sector separation, sector accountability. I was under the 10 impression in the Magnuson Act at one point that if our 11 commercial fishery overfished that we would have to pay the 12 bill. 13 14 Then I find out it goes both ways. If the commercial fishermen 15 overfished red snapper or grouper or whatever species, the other 16 sector, the recreational sector, would be shut down. It goes 17 both ways. 18 19 I talked to a number of the charterboat guys here and I've 20 talked to a number of recreational people and what we feel is 21 that what's fair and honest is whatever sector goes over their 22 allocation, that they pay that allocation back out of their 23 sector, rather than penalizing another sector for overfishing. 24 25 That brings me to the point that it's very hard in the 26 commercial industry to be able to do a business plan when you 27 never know what's going to happen, whether one sector is going 28 to overfish or whatever. You can look at your own sector and 29 do, but in our case, it's very hard to keep track of the 30 recreational sector. We don't know how many people or anything 31 else and so it's pretty complicated. 32 33 As far as what Commissioner Teehan mentioned, I think that a 34 partial release makes sense rather than throwing fish back dead. 35 We're under an IFQ and we've got a little bit of time. 36 Hopefully we'll make it big enough that we eliminate a lot of 37 discards and give some economic relief to some of the fishermen 38 and so that's kind of it. 39 40 I have one more thing. We used to get a disk and I miss my 41 disk. We used to get a disk and now we have to download and I'm 42 not too good with that, but we've had a couple of the guys, just 43 to mention to you, that they would like to get on the boat and 44 if they get the disk in enough time and we used to put them in 45 the lobby and they've all got computers and they don't have all 46 them sticks and stuff you stick in them. They've still got the 47 old stuff, most of them, and if maybe we could get a few of them 48 sent out, it would be appreciated. Thank you for the time. 76 1 2 MR. TEEHAN: Bobby, thank you for addressing that issue. Is it 3 preferable to get a proportion, say 40 or 50 percent, of the TAC 4 upfront or could you work with 50,000 pounds or whatever it 5 works out to be in January and then another in February and 6 another in March, until we get this issue straightened out? 7 Which would be the better scenario? 8 9 MR. SPAETH: I think a partial release, just on the 10 precautionary side, but how much, I don't know. I would like to 11 talk to my constituents in the back of the room before I get my 12 throat cut up here. Thank you, Bill. I think they'll let you 13 know here in a little bit what they think. Thank you very much. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bobby. Mike Colby, followed by 16 Russell Stewart. 17 18 MR. COLBY: Thank you, council. I'm Mike Colby with the 19 Clearwater Commercial Marine Association and I'm now 20 representing close to about twenty-six federal permit holders in 21 that area. 22 23 I would like to first thank NOAA Fisheries Southeast last month 24 for giving me an opportunity to come into their offices and 25 throw myself into a learning process with MRIP and SEDAR and I 26 know Bill has left his seat, but he was right that Andy 27 Strelcheck is pretty tough, because he gave me some homework to 28 do, but it was a very kind gesture and it's kind of allowed me 29 to put my arms around some of this process for our permit 30 holders. 31 32 All of our permit holders, again, as I said in Gulfport, are 33 very much in favor of examining and furthering the talk on 34 sector allocation. They understand that the benefits of the 35 sustainable resource from their end, from being accountable and 36 from having this council develop better, easier management plans 37 for us, for being a closer watched industry, is certainly going 38 to help their businesses grow in the future. 39 40 They're practical and they know that there's no magic wand here 41 with sector allocation. We're going to hopefully, if this 42 council grants an ACL to the for-hire sector, we're going to 43 have to go off in our sandbox somewhere and figure out how we're 44 going to apportion that and there's a lot of people that will 45 help us. It's a daunting task, but I guarantee you that we can 46 do it and we're up to that task. 47 48 The other options for us, as federal permit holders in the for- 77 1 hire sector, is to simply continue being managed under a 2 recreational FMP in an open-access fishery. 3 4 Our fishermen are proud of what they do. They are proud of 5 their businesses. Every permit holder I talk to in mid-Florida 6 is proud of the fact that they have a business and they take 7 private recreational anglers fishing. 8 9 As I mentioned possibly back in Gulfport, we queried our permit 10 holders only in the Clearwater City Marina. We have twenty of 11 those federal permit holders right there and we queried their 12 books from 2004 to 2009 and this is through a period of time 13 where we had high hurricane activity and red tide and high fuel 14 prices. We still averaged 67,000 private angler passengers out 15 of that one marina and we're darned proud of that and we know 16 that we give a good access to federal waters that these people 17 otherwise wouldn't have. 18 19 I promised our permit holders when I came here that I would wrap 20 my arms around this and if they continued to feel that I was 21 worthy enough to come here and represent them, I made them a 22 promise that I would not come in front of this council and I 23 would not pound the table and I would not make uneducated, wild 24 ramblings about the data and I wouldn't file meaningless 25 lawsuits. 26 27 We feel that that is not proper representation for the for-hire 28 sector. There is a better way and we feel the better 29 representation is a skillful look at sector allocation. Thank 30 you. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you. Russell Stewart, followed by Mike 33 Eller. Is Russell Stewart here? Mike, are you ready? Mike 34 will be followed by Russell Underwood. 35 36 MR. ELLER: I'm Mike Eller from the Destin Charterboat 37 Association. I really appreciate the conversation in the Reef 38 Fish Committee about looking at the IFQ, the red snapper IFQ, at 39 the five-year review. 40 41 Obviously as we've gone through the last five years and we've 42 seen how it's come together and developed and the consolidation 43 and we see the fishery continuing to expand, there needs to be a 44 mechanism, as this fishery expands, so that other commercial 45 fishermen, who may not have had those landings, are able to take 46 part in this fishery. 47 48 Right now, we have a bycatch mortality issue with fishermen who 78 1 either have very low red snapper quota, such as myself -- I 2 bought 2,000 pounds for $50,000, just so I could have some red 3 snappers to use as bycatch while I'm in my vermilion snapper 4 fishery. 5 6 Otherwise, I either have to do what the commercial fishermen 7 have typically done, and that's just throw the red snappers back 8 dead, or I have to move my boat to get away from the mixture of 9 red snappers and vermilion snappers and so I spent $50,000. I 10 borrowed $50,000 to have some red snapper so that I could at 11 least be efficient in the vermilion snapper fishery. 12 13 As the red snapper fishery continues to expand and expand into 14 areas down south, Tampa and whatnot, those fishermen who were 15 not in the fishery because the fishing was gone or the stock was 16 gone from their area, they need to have a mechanism for being 17 involved in this fishery. 18 19 As the stock continues to get bigger and the TAC gets bigger, I 20 do not see the point of just continuing to give the same group 21 of fishermen the fish over and over again, especially as we go 22 higher and higher above the 9.2-million-pound TAC. 23 24 I really appreciate looking at the red snapper IFQ system to try 25 to figure out some different options, whether it be use-it-or- 26 lose-it or whatever else it has. Right now, I lease some red 27 snappers for $3.00 a pound. I got $4.50 for the fish and that 28 leaves $1.50. The government takes 3 percent, and that's 29 fourteen-cents a pound, and that leaves me with $1.36 that I 30 split with my crew. 31 32 That red snapper that I just sold for $4.50 nets me sixty-three- 33 cents and so it's not even worth it and then, on top of that, 34 I've got to go lease those fish and so there's a big outlay to 35 net sixty-four-cents. I can't do it. I can't make any money in 36 it and my crew is disgusted with it and so what do we do? We're 37 involved in the commercial fishery and we throw dead red 38 snappers back because we don't have access. 39 40 Yes, we have access if you can find somebody to lease you the 41 fish and I make sixty-three-cents or I net sixty-three-cents and 42 so it's not worth it to me. I very much appreciate that as we 43 go forward with the red snapper that we look at other places, 44 Alaska, where they have use-it-or-lose-it-type clauses and just 45 make it fair so that as this fishery continues to expand that 46 there is an avenue. 47 48 The red snapper fishery is over a hundred years old and it's 79 1 going to continue for many hundreds of years, but yet right now 2 it's owned by one small portion of one generation and so I 3 appreciate the opportunity for the council to take a hard look 4 at it and see where some changes could be made to make it fair 5 and equitable for everybody. Thank you. 6 7 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mike. Russell Underwood, followed 8 by Bart. 9 10 MR. RUSSELL UNDERWOOD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm Russell 11 Underwood from Panama City, Florida. I've been a commercial 12 fisherman for thirty years and a partyboat captain and deckhand 13 for ten. 14 15 The first thing I would like to do is speak on the red snapper 16 recreational season. I should have filled out three cards, but 17 I didn't. The first thing is I support the recreational open 18 fall season. I spent a lot of time in my young years as a 19 partyboat captain and the city of Panama City, Florida, the 20 people that was not involved in the VOO program -- There was a 21 lot of boats that didn't get selected in the recreational 22 business and they need their share of the allocation. 23 24 I support that and I also support them -- We've heard a lot of 25 talk this afternoon about, and I'm proud of that, recreational 26 fishermen coming up here and speaking about they don't want to 27 go over their quota and they want to be held accountable. 28 That's a great success story for everybody and so I support that 29 season, the three-day season or maybe a four-day season on the 30 weekend, a three or four-day fishing week. I support that. 31 32 The next thing I would like to talk about is the grouper, the 33 gag grouper. I got a very small gag grouper allocation. I've 34 always been a snapper fisherman, but in the western Gulf, 35 there's a few fishermen down there that catch grouper around the 36 rigs and the bottom. 37 38 We hardly ever see no throwbacks. They're always nice sized 39 fish. We catch a very few amount of groupers, but what we've 40 got, we need. I believe the way to manage the fishery is not to 41 have a total closure. If that was the case, I think red snapper 42 would have been closed about twenty-five years ago, because 43 we've had problems with red snapper for this long. 44 45 There's been people that's wanted a closure, but as fishermen, 46 recreational and commercial, we have all worked together to 47 bring back the red snapper and that's one of the reasons why 48 you're hearing all these complaints. We have worked together as 80 1 a team, including the council, to bring this fishery back, but 2 to close a fishery that just got started in an IFQ, you all have 3 not given us the chance to build this fishery back up. 4 5 You've seen the success story in the last four years with red 6 snapper. Everybody wants a part of this fishery, but for me to 7 lose all my gag grouper allocation and to get no benefit, the 8 public don't get no benefit and the recreational don't get no 9 benefit -- Maybe in ten years, but I'm afraid if you close this 10 fishery that you might not open it back up for another five or 11 ten years. I'm concerned about the resource, very concerned 12 about the gag grouper resource, but closing the fishery 13 completely is not a way to manage the fishery and I thank you. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Russell. 16 17 MR. GILL: Thank you, Russell, for coming and your comments and 18 relative to the ideas that our pseudo Commissioner Teehan 19 raised, if we did part of the TAC, we have a couple of options. 20 One is doing part of it and releasing all of it on 1 January. 21 Another option floating around is releasing part of it each 22 month until we can get this new interim rule in place in 23 February, or established in February, and then implement it in 24 the March/April timeframe. Would you prefer the bulk release or 25 the staged release? 26 27 MR. UNDERWOOD: It's hard to say, but just -- Right now it's 28 just a small amount of release. Let's support that. 29 30 MR. GILL: You would support the monthly release? 31 32 MR. UNDERWOOD: Yes. 33 34 MR. GILL: Very good. Thank you, sir, and I appreciate your 35 comments. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Russell. Bart Niquet. Is Bart 38 still here? I think he may have left, but we'll give him a 39 chance if he gets back in. Bob Zales? Bob is gone. Buddy 40 Guindon 41 42 MR. BUDDY GUINDON: Thank you for allowing me to speak and for 43 your hard work. I'm Buddy Guindon from the Gulf of Mexico Reef 44 Fish Shareholder's Alliance and first I'll speak a little bit 45 about the five-year review. We feel like as an Alliance that 46 the goals of the IFQ system are being achieved and we'll have 47 some recommendations at the next council meeting. 48 81 1 Also, the Alliance has not changed the position on 2 accountability. It must occur within all sectors and we feel 3 like the implementation of sector separation would be a really 4 good start for the charter/for-hire sector. 5 6 When you get to the issue of gags, I think the release of a 7 small amount of gag grouper each month would be a fabulous idea 8 until we figure out what's going to happen. It would be better 9 than throwing them away. 10 11 While the IFQs are reducing bycatch in our reef fish fisheries, 12 the Alliance goals are to work towards zero discards and 100 13 percent accountability and what we would like to see happen to 14 assist this is to establish some type of video monitoring system 15 that would ensure that the gags and all fish caught are counted 16 towards each individual's quota and give an individual 17 accountability, so that they can avoid these bycatch species, 18 because fishermen can do that if given the chance and maybe 19 giving the responsibility, by putting a camera on a boat, would 20 give them the chance to show you how good a fisherman they can 21 be and avoid these species, including the turtles that we have 22 problems with. 23 24 We also recommend reducing or eliminating all of the size limits 25 on reef fish that are under an individual quota system. A pound 26 of fish is a pound of fish and it doesn't matter if it's a five- 27 inch fish or a thirty-five-inch fish. We would like to see 28 those size limits just eliminated completely. 29 30 One other thing is we're looking towards those new entrants in 31 the fishery. We would like to see the council reach out to the 32 federal government and there's some programs out there that 33 would allow some financing of IFQs. 34 35 We really need to get that program started so that some of the 36 young entrants don't have to depend on their parents and other 37 people, because we can't take these things to the bank and we 38 don't own them. A way to finance that would be just fabulous 39 and it would solve one of the problems that we're facing. I 40 appreciate all your hard work and that's all I have. Thank you. 41 42 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Buddy. Tracy Tate, followed by 43 David Krebs. 44 45 MS. T.J. TATE: It's actually T.J. I don't know why Buddy put 46 it in as Tracy. Nobody call me that but my momma. I'm T.J. 47 Tate and I'm the Executive Director of the Reef Fish 48 Shareholder's Alliance and I'm just going to speak with you very 82 1 briefly today on some of the things that the Alliance has been 2 working on, which will, in turn, hopefully help the council 3 along and you will hear further positions from our president, 4 David Krebs, who will be speaking in just a little bit. 5 6 First and foremost in the Alliance view, as Buddy mentioned, we 7 think that the IFQ program is achieving its goals. The program 8 has contributed to conservation and ending overfishing by 9 keeping harvest within the catch limits, fostering careful 10 targeting and reducing of discards, and linking business 11 interests with the health of the stock. 12 13 We have held within our organization two workshops and have 14 established a working committee to identify several 15 recommendations to improve the red snapper program. We will 16 formally submit our paper to the council at the October meeting. 17 18 We have also received a working draft of our third-party red 19 snapper pre-assessment and are in the process of requiring a 20 pre-assessment for the grouper fishery. Both will be presented 21 to the council for review. For those of you who aren't sure 22 what a pre-assessment is, it's the first step toward a marine 23 stewardship certification, which recognizes and rewards 24 sustainable fishery practices. 25 26 We have also finally begun our pilot project with NOAA by 27 volunteering our vessels to gather fishery-independent data and 28 are working toward establishing this as long-term research 29 project to provide indices of abundance of key reef fish species 30 such as red snapper, vermilion, red and gag grouper, and gray 31 triggerfish. Bonnie, we really want to thank you for keeping 32 that ball rolling, because it was a long process to put in 33 place. 34 35 Lastly, we wanted you all to be aware that we are preparing to 36 roll out our nationwide campaign to ensure consumer confidence 37 in Gulf seafood in the wake of the oil spill. This is the first 38 program of its kind within the Gulf that will provide complete 39 traceability of our seafood, from the boat all the way to the 40 end user, the consumer. 41 42 We will be providing the exact details of the program to the 43 council within the upcoming weeks. The campaign itself is 44 called the Hook to Cook Plan and I'm happy to answer any 45 questions that you might have about the campaign once we've 46 provided you with the details. 47 48 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, T.J. 83 1 2 MR. SAPP: T.J., you said you're going to have something 3 prepared for the council and would you like for the council to 4 schedule some period of time so that you can make a presentation 5 other than just in the public comment period like this? If so, 6 how long would you like for the council to schedule for that? 7 8 MS. TATE: For which thing that I mentioned? We have several 9 that we're going to be presenting at the council in October. 10 11 MR. SAPP: Most importantly because we've begun the red snapper 12 five-year IFQ review. 13 14 MS. TATE: Yes. I don't know how much time. Can I get back to 15 you on a time? 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Sure. 18 19 MR. SIMPSON: T.J., I would like also, while you're there, to 20 brief us on your activities and progress on that MSC 21 traceability thing. 22 23 MS. TATE: That is a work in progress right now. We have the 24 draft report. It was done by MRAG and they are preparing our 25 grouper assessment as well. Once we have that in a final 26 format, then it's up to our discretion to submit it to you, but 27 our goal is transparency in this and so we'll be giving a 28 document to everyone and be happy to answer any questions that 29 you have. 30 31 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, T.J. David Krebs, followed by Bill 32 Kelly. 33 34 MR. DAVID KREBS: Good afternoon, council. Thank you, Mr. 35 Chairman. My name is David Krebs and I'm the president of the 36 Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder's Alliance and owner of 37 Ariel Seafoods in Destin, Florida and Sebastian, Florida. 38 39 The focus of our comments today are going to be on the ACL/AM 40 Amendment, but to begin with, I would like to answer some of 41 Corky's questions about king mackerel earlier or comments more 42 so. The market is great for king mackerel. The problem is the 43 way the seasons are prosecuted. 44 45 Right now, the entire northern Gulf of Mexico gets less than 1.2 46 million pounds of fish. You guys go ahead and give us three- 47 million pounds in the western Gulf and we'll catch them for you 48 every year. We'll get those fish for you, because they're there 84 1 and we need to look at that stock separately and I encourage the 2 Mackerel Committee to recognize that, as we talked at the last 3 council meeting, the Gulf of Mexico king mackerel permit goes 4 from North Carolina to Brownsville, Texas. 5 6 We're talking about catch shares, potentially, in the western 7 Gulf and at least we're going to have a committee meeting and AP 8 about king mackerel and that's a great start to look at that 9 fishery, but nobody is afraid of them. They're loving to eat 10 them and we've got 40,000 pounds in today. 11 12 My comments though specifically are on the ACLs and the 13 accountability measures. After the talk yesterday about this 14 fall recreational season, which we as industry fully support our 15 recreational friends and counterparts in this fishery, but we're 16 very concerned about overfishing and us paying part of that 17 price. 18 19 When all this discussion was had at the roundtable, I went back 20 to National Standard 1 and I'm going to ask for some clarity 21 here actually, because when I look at National Standard 1, it 22 says that if an ACL is exceeded, and that would be an annual 23 catch limit -- If I have an annual catch limit as a commercial 24 fisher and the recreational sector has an annual catch limit, 25 that's their catch limit. 26 27 If it's exceeded, then that person who exceeded it or that group 28 is responsible for payback. That's the way I read this and 29 maybe I could get some guidance from somebody here at the 30 council or Shep if that's the correct way to understand this, as 31 opposed to one group overfishing their quota and then me having 32 to pay for it. 33 34 MR. GILL: I'll talk to you later about that. I think you 35 misinterpreted what Roy was saying last night and so I'll talk 36 to you on the side on that. 37 38 MR. KREBS: Okay. Cool. Having said that, the Alliance would 39 like to see that every fishery have a commercial and a 40 recreational annual catch limit established and be responsible 41 for what they're harvesting. 42 43 We think that's a very key part and, of course, as you guys 44 know, the Alliance does support sector separation in the 45 recreational sector, because I think that's the only way the 46 charter for-hire is ever going to get the benefits of 47 accountability. Thank you very much. 48 85 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, David. 2 3 MR. GRIMES: I think it's only fair to respond to that somewhat. 4 I think what you're getting to is the guidelines don't require 5 sector-specific ACLs, but they require annual catch limits for 6 the fishery and in the case of red snapper, we divide a quota 7 recreational and commercial and we have a provision in the 8 statute itself which requires that separation, but the 9 guidelines also say for fish stocks that are under rebuilding 10 plans, they encourage overage adjustments and it says "should" 11 and it strongly encourages that there be overage adjustments. I 12 think that's really what you're talking about or it seems to me. 13 14 In the case of having separate quotas, then unless the science 15 supports that we don't need an overage adjustment, since we have 16 separate quotas, it would make sense for the overage adjustments 17 to be tied to the individual quotas and so there is some support 18 for that perspective. 19 20 MR. KREBS: Thank you, Shepherd. That's what it said. It 21 actually on the page -- I'll give it to anybody who wants it, 22 but when I printed it out, it defined the word "should" as to 23 what it meant and I'll read it real quick. It says should is 24 used to indicate that an action or consideration is strongly 25 recommended to fulfill the Secretary's interpretation of the 26 Magnuson-Stevens Act and is a factor that reviewers will look at 27 for evaluating SOPPs or FMPs. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, David. Bill Kelly, I've got three 30 cards stapled together, but I assume you do not want nine 31 minutes. I'm not going to give you nine minutes. 32 33 MR. BILL KELLY: I understand that. Charlene has already 34 advised me that I get three minutes and so I'm going to make it 35 brief. There are three issues that I would like to talk to you 36 about, Mr. Chairman and members of the council. 37 38 The first is spiny lobster and to follow up on our conversation 39 this morning during your committee meetings. Number one, we 40 would like to see some consistency in state and federal 41 regulations and to that end, we would like to point out that 42 it's illegal to dive casitas, or manmade structures, in state 43 waters. 44 45 We would also like to see the councils, both the South Atlantic 46 and the Gulf Council, consider making that illegal in federal 47 waters as well. It's estimated that there are in excess of 48 50,000 casitas out there and these are all illegal manmade 86 1 structures. 2 3 They are altering natural migration patterns and they have a 4 high initial harvest rate and then they fall to nothing because 5 they do not follow the fishery. In some cases, they are 6 disrupting the natural migration of that fishery and so please 7 give that some consideration. 8 9 Then I made a call to Tom Matthews at the Florida Marine 10 Research Institute in Marathon to get some follow-up information 11 regarding using shorts as attractants. Number one, the 12 mortality rate on the use of shorts as attractants is 10 13 percent. The natural mortality rate is 30 percent. 10 percent 14 as a bycatch mortality rate is relatively low for any fishery. 15 16 There is some debate as to whether or not putting them in that 17 trap keeps them alive a little bit longer or if the 10 percent 18 should be added on to the 30 percent that's the natural 19 mortality rate. 20 21 The use of attractants is not well established to the west of 22 the Tortugas, primarily because, as I mentioned this morning, 23 it's hard bottom and it's flat territory and there's no place 24 for shorts to hide and so the fishermen there prefer to bait 25 their traps. 26 27 Interestingly enough, according to Tom Matthews, the baited 28 traps have no better catch rate than an unbaited trap. It's all 29 in the fisherman's mind, his perception that it does. The other 30 thing is the using attractants is they're three times more 31 likely to -- The catch ratio is three times higher. 32 33 Also, with regard to Dr. Crabtree's discussion and so forth that 34 we're catching all the lobster out there, essentially that's 35 true, without having any impact on the fishery. All of our 36 fisheries, all our lobster, according to studies by Dr. Nelson 37 Ehrhardt, Don Beranger, and John Hunt, indicate that 100 percent 38 of our lobsters come from outside the State of Florida. They're 39 all coming from the Yucatan and from Columbia and from Belize, 40 from the southern side of Cuba and Nicaragua. 41 42 Those eggs then are deposited by the loop current in southern 43 Florida. We do not take egg-bearing females and all of those 44 eggs that are released by our lobster population go elsewhere 45 and they populate, to a limited extent, some portions of the 46 southeastern United States and then by the time they hit North 47 Carolina's waters, it's so cold that they're dead anyway. Two 48 other issues and one, Bob Gill -- 87 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Since you only filled out three cards and 3 others have gone, I am going to give you an extra minute-and-a- 4 half. 5 6 MR. KELLY: Thank you so much and I can shorten it up even more. 7 Mr. Gill added it to the agenda and we had talked about it in 8 our June meeting and we sent a letter on accountability measures 9 for king mackerel. 10 11 There are five latent permit holders out of twenty-two in that 12 fishery that could significantly upset our accountability 13 measure plan. We would like the Gulf and South Atlantic 14 Councils to consider retiring those five inactive permits. The 15 letter contains our definition of what we would consider to be 16 inactive. 17 18 Then the third and final item is July 27, 28, and 29, the 19 Environmental Defense Fund's sales team was in the Florida Keys 20 soliciting a draft outline for a catch shares program in Monroe 21 County and the Florida Keys. I have sent written comment to 22 you, but I want to reassure all of you that from the commercial 23 side, the for-hire side, and Monroe County in south Florida that 24 we are absolutely, across the board opposed to catch share 25 programs. 26 27 They represent fleet reduction and loss of small, independent 28 businesses and significant socioeconomic impact on our small 29 coastal communities. They do nothing to protect the resource. 30 They generally increase the price of fish and it auctions off 31 one of the greatest natural resources to the highest bidder. 32 Thank you. 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Bill. Glen Brooks, followed by 35 Ricky McDuffie. 36 37 MR. GLEN BROOKS: Good afternoon, council and chair. My name is 38 Glen Brooks and I'm with the Gulf Fishermen's Association and I 39 also sit on the board of the Shareholder's Alliance. I would 40 like to thank you for this opportunity to speak on behalf of our 41 members. 42 43 My first topic is VMS. I'm also on the new VMS AP and we held 44 our first meeting last week in Tampa. I think we came up with 45 more questions than answers though in that first meeting. A lot 46 of ideas came out of that meeting and we're looking forward to 47 the next one. I would just like to thank the council for that 48 AP. I think it's going to be very beneficial for industry and 88 1 the National Marine Fisheries Service. 2 3 The next topic is gags and getting back on track here about the 4 commercial gag quota. At the last council meeting, there was 5 discussion about giving the commercial sector their reduced 6 allocation on January 1 to reduce discards and let the fishermen 7 put their 2011 business plan together. 8 9 Unless the council thinks the commercial sector's gag allocation 10 is going to be zero pounds, there's no reason not to give the 11 commercial fishermen their allocation for 2011 on January 1. 12 It's bad enough when fishermen have to throw undersized dead 13 fish over, but to discard legal-sized fish should not be 14 acceptable with the new IFQ management system we're under. 15 16 We're only in our first year of the grouper IFQ and more and 17 more fishermen every day are getting accustomed to buying and 18 trading allocation to cover what they catch. We have the Edges 19 closed to protect our spawning stock and fishermen know where 20 gags live and can avoid them to a certain extent. We do not 21 support any more area and time closures. If we're going to move 22 this fishery into 100 percent accountability, we need to start 23 here in the rulemaking. 24 25 My next topic is going to be on the cameras. There's been a lot 26 of discussion about cameras on boats. They're expensive and we 27 don't think industry can afford that right now, but we also 28 believe that in the future that we won't be able to afford to 29 fish without them, as we move forward into a 100 percent 30 accountability fishery. 31 32 As our quotas shrink and our fishing grounds get closed due to 33 the uncertainty of what we're catching and discarding, proving 34 what we're doing all the time and individually is going to be 35 very important. We can no longer live under the assumptions of 36 bycatch, discards, and turtle interactions. We would like to 37 form an industry video monitoring committee with National Marine 38 Fisheries to help develop this plan. 39 40 My next topic is going to be on financing. Securing some type 41 of financing for the professional commercial fishermen to obtain 42 the proper IFQ shares or allocation for his or her individual 43 needs, to balance their business plan, is going to play an 44 important role in properly managing this fishery. 45 46 I think all the council members received a copy of the Federal 47 Register notice that has some information about federal 48 financing for IFQs in it. I was told that our council needs to 89 1 request this for our region before we can participate in this 2 program. 3 4 My last topic was on longline endorsements, just an idea to 5 consider. As the new biological opinion is being written on 6 loggerheads, could it consider splitting longline endorsements? 7 We want this to be on a voluntary basis per individual. 8 9 Say if you own a longline endorsement, you have the option to 10 split it and put it on two vessels, but it would make it a 375- 11 hook longline endorsement. An option like this would result in 12 less soak time with less chance of drowning a turtle in the 13 event that one was hooked. We were thinking this could also be 14 tested with a CRP. Thank you. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Glen. 17 18 MR. GILL: Thank you, Rabbit, for your comments. I guess I'm a 19 little confused. Relative to the gag interim rule, your 20 preference sounded like, from your comments, that your 21 preference would be for the bulk release of whatever quota there 22 might be, from 390,000 on down, something above zero, on January 23 1, as opposed to the discussions that we've had previously to a 24 monthly release of some percentage of whatever quota is 25 available. Did I understand that correctly or was I incorrect? 26 27 MR. BROOKS: I already had my public comment written up and so I 28 went ahead and stuck with that, but we've since talked with SOFA 29 and the Alliance and I think we're pretty much in agreement that 30 if we took January and February landings and got the average 31 annual landings for those two months and then we reduced it by 32 whatever we think we need to, 70 percent or 75 percent, and we 33 had those landings to work with in January and February or until 34 the interim rule expires or the new one takes over. 35 36 MR. GILL: You prefer the monthly release as opposed to the bulk 37 release upfront? 38 39 MR. BROOKS: It's better than zero. Zero we can't live with. 40 41 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Glen. Ricky McDuffie and is Ricky 42 here? I didn't see him. Daryl Carpenter? He's been up twice 43 already and so I guess he's gone. Donny Waters and Donny will 44 be followed by Joe Denmon. 45 46 MR. DONNY WATERS: Good afternoon, council. I'm glad you all 47 could finally make it to Pensacola after following you all 48 around over the coast for twenty years. I hope that you've 90 1 enjoyed your stay and we hope that the hospitality has been 2 gracious and we'll treat you so many ways that you'll have to 3 like one of them. 4 5 One of the first things I would like to bring up is forming a 6 red snapper AP for the five-year review. The review should be 7 simple, which only sees if the IFQ goals has been reached. In 8 my opinion, they have been surpassed. 9 10 My next small topic is I think the finance thing is very 11 important to allow new participants into the fishery and I do 12 still believe National Standard 1 should have a payback per 13 sector if allocations is overrun. 14 15 Another thing that I was told yesterday by Mr. Sapp is that 16 there was a requirement for the council to look at allocation 17 every five years, quote, unquote, and I still have not found 18 that paper and I entertain you to provide me with that 19 information when you can get it. I'm sure it's there, Mr. Sapp. 20 21 The other thing is the numbers, fishing for numbers, I would 22 like to see more information on it, because what's good for the 23 goose is good for the gander and so I would like to know how 24 many heads of snappers I can catch with my allocation for IFQs. 25 If we want to target by eyeballs, I would like to know how many 26 eyeballs I can get a year. When we look at that -- Like I said, 27 it could be an interesting concept. That's pretty much my 28 comments and simple. I've enjoyed you all's stay here in 29 Pensacola and I've enjoyed being able to sleep at home and I 30 hope that you consider coming back to Pensacola. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Donny. Joe Denmon. Is Joe here? 33 Wayne Werner? Wayne, you'll be followed by David Walker. 34 35 MR. WAYNE WERNER: Good afternoon. My name is Wayne Werner, 36 owner/operator of the Fishing Vessel Sea Quest and here we are 37 once again for seventy or eighty times. I'm getting too old to 38 remember. I quit counting after about sixty. 39 40 I'll tell you what. As far as this IFQ program, it's reached 41 its goals and it's reached its objectives. There are a few 42 issues, but one of them was and I think is a job that needs to 43 be done by National Marine Fisheries Service and that's the cap 44 busting. There is some going on and just the way that you're 45 looking at it. You need to get deeper investigations into this. 46 These are problems. These are issues. 47 48 As far as going ahead with the IFQ program, nobody seems to know 91 1 what's going to happen in our future. I don't. I just know 2 that this is the best thing I've seen. I've seen more fish 3 everywhere that I go and I said it earlier this year for the 4 first time. I don't know if anybody remembers it and we have 5 quite a few new council members and for the first time I said 6 it. I see more fish than I've ever seen there and everybody 7 here knows I've been doing this a long time. If it doesn't help 8 biologically, I don't know what does and that's all I really 9 have to say today and thank you. 10 11 MR. GRIMES: What do you mean by cap busting? Do you mean quota 12 busting or share cap? 13 14 MR. WERNER: The cap, the level on the cap, ownership cap. 15 16 MR. GRIMES: The IFQ share cap? 17 18 MR. WERNER: The IFQ cap. I just felt like you're not looking 19 at it properly and just looking at husband and wives and there's 20 a lot of other family members you need to look at down the line. 21 Thank you. 22 23 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: David, if you can hobble on up here. The 24 people to follow you I've called before and they're not here and 25 so, David, you might be the last, unless Bob Zales or Bart has 26 shown back up. 27 28 MR. DAVID WALKER: I'm David Walker from Alabama and I'm a 29 commercial fisherman, Walker Fishing Fleet. I agree with what 30 Donny Waters and Wayne Werner both said and I would like to also 31 talk about the sector separation. 32 33 I support that. I think that will give them some accountability 34 and possibly should give them a longer season and that's what 35 they want. As far as their fall opening, I support that too. 36 I've talked to numerous ones and they seem to like the October 1 37 through October 31. 38 39 The last thing I would like to touch on is the size limits in 40 red snapper and grouper. I don't think we need any size limits 41 and I think that would address a lot of the mortalities and not 42 in just the commercial, but in the recreational too. That's it. 43 44 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, David. Bob and Bart are apparently 45 not here and so that concludes our public testimony. Will lost 46 his card and so, Will, you can come up and speak. We'll assume 47 somebody else is responsible, Will. 48 92 1 MR. WILL WARD: Good afternoon, council members. It's good to 2 see a lot of faces. I haven't been able to be here for a while, 3 but it's good to see all of you. I hope you enjoyed yourselves 4 last night. We sure enjoyed having you. 5 6 Briefly, I just wanted to comment about the gag grouper issue. 7 A lot of the other people already have, but it's one of the ones 8 that seems to be the most pressing one and probably one that 9 will be anxiously debated about in the council deliberations. 10 11 Rule 1, from our perspective, from Gulf Fishermen's Association, 12 is that whatever you do, look at this from a perspective of 13 regulatory discards. We want to encourage you, strongly 14 encourage you, to do whatever you can to minimize regulatory 15 discards and not, in essence, implement them by management. 16 17 Whatever you do, whether it be implementing a part of it, a 18 monthly amount of it, keep that in mind when you deliberate 19 today in deciding about gag grouper. 20 21 The issue itself probably isn't going to be decided anytime soon 22 about what's going to happen with the rerun of the full model, 23 but we don't know which way it's going to go. There's competing 24 interests. One could say that the stock is stronger because 25 there's more fish to be discarding and another could say there's 26 more mortality and both of those competing interests could work 27 against each other and we're not so sure. 28 29 Like Dr. Ponwith and Dr. Crabtree stated, we don't want to 30 prejudge that and we'll see what that is, but maintain having 31 some of it open for the targeted fishery, which will probably 32 become red grouper now, because we're going to have to change 33 the methodologies even in the vertical line fishery and we'll 34 have a bycatch fishery basically is all that's going to be left 35 of the gag fishery in the Gulf, but be mindful of that and I 36 want to encourage you to do so. Thank you for your time. 37 38 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Will. That concludes public 39 testimony and that concludes our council activities for today 40 and so we will recess and take note that tomorrow we're supposed 41 to resume at 8:45 according to the agenda. 42 43 (Whereupon, the meeting recessed at 4:50 p.m., August 19, 2010.) 44 45 - - - 46 47 August 20, 2010 48 93 1 FRIDAY MORNING SESSION 2 3 - - - 4 5 The Full Council of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management 6 Council reconvened in the Grand Ballroom of the Crowne Plaza, 7 Pensacola, Florida, Friday morning, August 20, 2010, and was 8 called to order at 8:45 a.m. by Chairman Bob Shipp. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We are back in session and the first item on 11 the agenda is the Reef Fish Committee Report. 12 13 MR. PERRET: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I've learned that 14 our fisheries enforcement personnel, our experts in fisheries 15 enforcement, have to leave on an early flight. We've all heard 16 a lot of testimony about the potential fall recreational red 17 snapper season and weekends and weekdays or whatever. I would 18 just like to, with your permission, have them comment about 19 enforcement relative to whatever type of measure we consider. 20 21 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Yes, sir, I think that's very appropriate and 22 so if some of the enforcement people would come up, Tracy or 23 whoever, and give us your take on it. 24 25 MR. TRACY DUNN: For the record, Tracy Dunn with NOAA Office of 26 Enforcement. We've been kind of following the discussion here 27 and, again, we provide enforcement advice and the ultimate 28 decision is yours. 29 30 The one provision we kind of started to discuss amongst 31 ourselves that we could see some problems with was the weekend 32 openings. Normally when you open and close a fishery we have 33 some difficulty on either end, depending on how that closure is 34 set up, sunrise versus a set time. 35 36 A closure, are you going to have that product back at the dock 37 at the time of the closure or do they just have to stop fishing 38 at the time of the closure and if they have to stop fishing, do 39 they have to come in or are they allowed to stay out with that 40 species aboard? 41 42 You can start to see that it's going to cause the enforcement 43 officer a little bit of problem and nothing we can't deal with 44 in a regular closure. We see to handle that well. 45 46 Commercial is a little bit easier. There's less boats. If you 47 look at with the recreational, you have a lot of boats coming 48 back in, especially if everybody waits until the very end. 94 1 We're not going to be able to check very many at all. If you do 2 a weekend closure, you compound those problems. The more 3 closures you have back to back like that, the more difficulty 4 we'll have in trying to keep up with the amount of boats we need 5 to check to ensure that that closure is being honored. We would 6 prefer to see or at least we advise a single closure. 7 8 LCDR DEGEORGE: From the Coast Guard's point of view, and I'm 9 sorry we didn't get to talk about this, Tracy, before, but we're 10 going to have assets out all the time and it's not like we don't 11 work on the weekends and so it's not going to be a problem in 12 terms of having Coast Guard assets out over the weekend. 13 14 I don't really see it being a problem of asset allocation, but 15 like Tracy said, I would like to echo that we really need to 16 define start and stop times, so it's very clear for the boarding 17 officers when they get out there what they're dealing with. 18 19 DR. CRABTREE: I think if we open the fishery at 12:01 a.m. on 20 Friday morning and close it at 12:01 a.m. Monday morning that 21 that means possession is prohibited and so those fish would have 22 to be off the boat by then and so it wouldn't be stop fishing. 23 It would be you're off the water by then. 24 25 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any other questions or comments by council? 26 27 MR. SAPP: Tracy, you kind of nodded your head in agreement. If 28 we carefully word this so that it's real clear in the language 29 that the fish have to be onshore landed when we hit that cutoff 30 date at the end of the weekend, does that solve any issues with 31 enforcement that you would have? 32 33 MR. DUNN: It solves one part of it and that would be the 34 provision as to what that boat is supposed to have aboard or 35 where it's supposed to be at the time of the closure, but as far 36 as being able to check, like I said, every time you open and 37 close something, we have to monitor that a little bit closer, 38 especially at the closure, when they're supposed to be returning 39 or heading back in or at the dock. 40 41 The more times you do that, that just compounds the problem and 42 that's what I'm saying. Every weekend that you do that, we 43 increase our enforcement monitoring, or we have to try at least. 44 45 MR. TEEHAN: I didn't think I was going to have to bring this up 46 this early, but as long as Tracy is up there, I need to ask him 47 this. What would you feel about an opening for Labor Day 48 weekend and then a closure and then a reopening in October for 95 1 as many days as we can do it straight through in October? 2 3 MR. DUNN: I would like to be able to discuss it with my 4 counterparts, but for me, I would prefer to see just one opening 5 and one closure. Just the more simple you make that, especially 6 on the closure, the better off you are. I have to say 7 something, too. Our assets will be out there. We work with the 8 states and those patrols will still be there, but, again, you're 9 talking about a lot of boats. 10 11 MS. WILLIAMS: Tracy, that was my -- It really wasn't a concern, 12 but enforcement, whether we have it open on the weekends or not, 13 they have to be out there checking all of the boats to see if 14 they have red snapper on them anyway, don't they? How does that 15 increase? 16 17 MR. DUNN: As a rule, yes, we're generally checking boats, but 18 you're taking that number of boats that want to go fish and you 19 have a weekend crowd too, but you also have people that if they 20 can't fish on the weekdays, they're going to try to fish on the 21 weekend and so you're going to be piling them up there. It's 22 like trying to get everybody out of a city at the same time. 23 24 MR. RIECHERS: My line of questioning was going to be along the 25 same lines, because basically every Sunday is a closed Sunday 26 except for those current days in June and July that we now have 27 it open. The reality of it is every Sunday you have that same 28 issue when the weekend is coming and people are trying to get 29 off the water and you're really trying to check that weekend 30 crowd. 31 32 I understand the difficulties. You would like it more black and 33 white and we're obviously trying to gauge that against some 34 opportunity that we're trying to give here. Obviously it's 35 going to be a different situation and one that we haven't had in 36 the past, no matter how we do it, whether it's an October 37 straight through or whether it's a weekend. 38 39 We will look forward to hearing how it worked with you guys, no 40 matter what we choose, and how it worked with the state law 41 enforcement officials as well, because obviously this is 42 something that if we can get more days at some point that we may 43 want to be splitting these seasons and so forth and you all's 44 input is going to be important and so however this one works 45 out, we're going to need you all's input on that as we move 46 forward. 47 48 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If there are no other questions, thank you, 96 1 Tracy, and we appreciate it. Let's turn it back over to the 2 committee vice chair, Mr. Gill, for the Reef Fish Committee 3 Report. 4 5 REEF FISH MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE REPORT 6 7 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. What I would like to do is 8 we had a lot of items on this agenda and with your permission, I 9 would like to pause after each section to see if the council has 10 any other things they would like to discuss, whether or not 11 there's motions from the committee, to further flesh out as to 12 desires of the council. 13 14 The Reef Fish Committee met August 17 and 18 and had a few 15 changes to the minutes and got into the first item, which is 16 Greater Amberjack Framework Action. Carrie Simmons gave an 17 overview of the Greater Amberjack Framework Action, which is Tab 18 B, Number 3(a), for a potential closure in the greater amberjack 19 recreational fishing season. 20 21 The current preferred Alternative 4 to close the recreational 22 greater amberjack fishing season from June 1 through July 31 was 23 not modified. The committee discussed the potential benefits of 24 closing the recreational greater amberjack fishing season during 25 spawning when the commercial fishery was closed and the 26 socioeconomic tradeoffs for modifying the preferred alternative. 27 28 The committee discussed the fact that the update stock 29 assessment would not be completed in time to determine if this 30 action was necessary. After further discussion the committee 31 deferred final action on this amendment to full council or the 32 October council meeting. I pause now to see if there's any 33 input or discussion or comment by the council. 34 35 I will make one if no one else will and that is that I think 36 that -- I sent some information around as to whether or not we 37 ought to be looking at this closure to include, in some fashion, 38 some part of the spawning season. 39 40 We had discussions relative to other alternatives to the current 41 preferred and they did not pass at the last meeting, but this 42 action does affect -- The current preferred does effectively 43 eliminate any inclusion of the spawning season for amberjack and 44 there has been considerable testimony by emails and the public 45 preferring an alternative, a spring, if you will, versus a 46 summer closure, and I think we should consider that a little 47 more and discuss it fully. 48 97 1 With that in mind, I move that in Action 1 that the preferred 2 alternative be Alternative 3. Alternative 3 is to establish a 3 recreational seasonal closure May 1 through June 30. This does 4 include some of the tail end of the spawning season and it also 5 includes some of the snapper season and is basically a 6 compromise between the two and this was the alternative I 7 believe that was proposed at the last meeting that did not last. 8 9 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Do we have a second? We have a second. 10 Further discussion on the motion? I'll simply comment that 11 certainly the majority of public testimony seemed to prefer the 12 ability to catch a trophy fish throughout the season and this 13 would partially eliminate that, I believe. Would it not? 14 15 If snapper season were open June and July and amberjack were 16 closed June and July, then the entire year there would be at 17 least one species of trophy-type species. 18 19 MR. GILL: I concur, Mr. Chairman, but I also heard considerable 20 testimony and have seen a fair number of emails that have argued 21 solely for a spring season. There seems, to me, to be a fair 22 split and that's why I bring this up, because I don't think it's 23 a black and white situation. 24 25 There are those -- It may be a regional issue, but there's 26 certainly the question in terms of the science and the biomass 27 of whether we ought to consider, if we're going to close some, 28 to try to do something to build that stock so that there are 29 more fish available in the future for longer seasons. 30 31 MR. GREENE: I speak in opposition to this motion. I feel it's 32 imperative to have a trophy fish, which could be a gag grouper, 33 amberjack, a red snapper. We've got to have something available 34 for the general public, the charter for-hire industry, to be 35 able to target when it comes about. 36 37 We heard testimony yesterday of a guy that had a headboat that 38 didn't catch a lot of amberjacks, but the idea that that person 39 could keep one if he caught him is very imperative, not only to 40 a headboat operator, but to a weekend guy that has an outboard 41 boat that may want to go fishing in the spring when the weather 42 is calm. 43 44 You've got a lot of factors to look at here and you've got to 45 consider obviously the spawning stock and the spawning season. 46 It has a big impact on it, but you've also got to look at the 47 economic side of it as well. This is something that comes down 48 to you've got to figure out which side of this fence do you want 98 1 to sit on. 2 3 I feel that from the testimony yesterday and I've read most all 4 of the emails that it's one of those things, but when you've got 5 everything closed at one time, I don't think we're doing a very 6 effective job as a council. If we want to move snapper season, 7 I'll be glad to reconsider moving amberjack out of the summer, 8 but I don't see that happening. 9 10 I don't care how we do this and it doesn't matter to me, but we 11 cannot have everything closed all at one time. That is just not 12 right, in my opinion. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Further discussion? Just one caveat. May is 15 pretty much the tail end of spawning season and the primary part 16 is March and April. I guess there's some geographic variation 17 on that, but I think in general that's the consensus. 18 19 MR. RIECHERS: I'm just going to echo what Johnny said as well. 20 We had this discussion some at the last meeting and the motion 21 failed and I'm going to speak against the motion again. We've 22 heard for many years that we need to have something open at all 23 times. 24 25 Like Johnny, maybe we should start thinking about looking at 26 these seasons in concert more and we are beginning that process 27 and this is kind of the first part of the beginning of that 28 process and many of us have done it in the past as well when 29 we've tried to think about these things, but certainly when we 30 look to create net benefits and opportunities, I think it 31 behooves us to leave the preferred alternative as we had it 32 coming out of committee this time around. 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We've had a lot of discussion on that and so -- 35 36 MR. FISCHER: There's another issue that comes into play that we 37 may talk about. We've heard discussion at this meeting about 38 tweaking the dates of the snapper season and possibly an early 39 snapper opening that I think components of the fishery in 40 Louisiana would be highly in favor of. 41 42 We've talked somewhat for an early snapper opening. It might 43 not last the duration of the season and then go back into 44 amberjack and let people fish amberjack through the summer and 45 let National Marine Fisheries calculate if there's any balance 46 left in the snapper and then have a small reopening in the fall. 47 48 Once again, Louisiana has 650 licensed charterboats, of which 99 1 about ten of them have inboard engines, meaning they're all 2 outboards. Of those, a hundred-and-something are federally 3 permitted in the reef fish fishery. It would shut down the 4 Louisiana fishery. We could not go without a summer amberjack 5 fishery. 6 7 As you all know, we don't get a lot of spokesmen from Louisiana. 8 We've tried our best to get them at these meetings, but I think 9 from the emails -- We're holding a meeting here in the Panhandle 10 of Florida and we're going to hear that voice and we hold a 11 meeting in south Texas and we're going to hear that voice. 12 13 We heard the Panhandle voice and we've always known the Orange 14 Beach to Panama City voice and what it was, but I do think we 15 have to listen to those people who can't attend, the ones that 16 sent the emails, and weigh their credibility just as high. 17 18 All I say is I know if we don't have a summer amberjack fishery 19 in Louisiana that we just shut down a lot of charterboats. 20 Damon is out of Venice and he does have a different view and I 21 respect it. I'm also looking for all the recreational boats 22 that have these twenty-something-foot outboards that fish 23 Louisiana. I'm not only looking for the charterboats. This is 24 not solely a charterboat issue. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Again, we've had a lot of discussion and so I 27 think we're ready to vote on this. The motion is to change the 28 preferred alternative to Alternative 3. All in favor of this 29 motion signify by raising your hand; all opposed. The motion 30 fails. 31 32 MR. GILL: The next section was Red Snapper IFQ Review. Assane 33 Diagne summarized the provisions of the red snapper IFQ program 34 and gave a presentation on the upcoming review of the program, 35 Tab B, Number 11(a). 36 37 The presentation highlighted the MSA requirements for review and 38 the objectives of the red snapper program. The program review 39 initiated by National Marine Fisheries Service will use existing 40 databases, including the logbook data and the IFQ database. 41 42 The review will evaluate indicators such as effort, landings, 43 and price trends, and assess the economic performance of the 44 fishery. In addition, a survey will be administered to assess 45 attitudes towards the program and measure socioeconomic outcomes 46 of the program. 47 48 Dr. Walter Keithly presented the survey instrument, Tab B, 100 1 Number 11(b), and indicated that the survey will be administered 2 via personal interviews, mail, and telephone. Dr Keithly also 3 indicated that additional surveys may be warranted to gather 4 information from dealers. 5 6 Andy Strelcheck discussed review requirements and indicated that 7 a discussion will be initiated to get feedback from law 8 enforcement on the monitoring and enforcement of the program. 9 In subsequent discussions, the committee indicated that several 10 issues and potential changes to the red snapper program needed 11 to be discussed and offered the following motion. 12 13 By a voice vote with one nay, the committee recommends, and I so 14 move, that the council request that staff prepare a discussion 15 paper for a future council meeting on intersector share 16 transfers, use-it-or-lose-it clause, reef fish permit 17 requirement, bycatch shares, law enforcement and administrative 18 issues, collection of resource rents, additional 19 characterization of shareholders, some methodology for surveying 20 non-shareholders who might wish to participate, and leasing cap. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 23 discussion? 24 25 MR. TEEHAN: Just a point of clarification. I had some concerns 26 that I didn't raise about leasing in general of shares. We 27 already have a use-it-or-lose-it concern in here and then we 28 have a leasing cap. Does staff consider that to be sufficient 29 to cover the whole leasing process, whoever is in charge of 30 that? 31 32 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Yes, we'll consider that. 33 34 MS. WILLIAMS: I have actually three or four comments. Shep, 35 what does Magnuson say about reviewing the red snapper IFQ? 36 Could you give us that language? 37 38 MR. GRIMES: In the case of red snapper, you have the plan 39 amendment itself which established the program and I believe it 40 said the council would conduct a five-year review and I think it 41 restricted it to looking at whether or not the plan was meeting 42 the goals and objectives. 43 44 Having said that, you can always modify that and go beyond. You 45 created the program and you can change it to review whatever you 46 would like and there is a provision in the new 303A section 47 which requires review of IFQ programs, or actually limited 48 access privilege programs, every five years and I actually think 101 1 five to seven years and, of course, now that I'm frantically 2 looking for it, I can't find the language, but it also applies. 3 4 In this case, your review has to cover whether or not it's 5 accomplishing the goals and objectives, but it can go beyond 6 that as well and if I find the language here in just a minute, I 7 will read it to you if you so desire. Thank you. 8 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay and the reason I asked Shep that is because 10 we heard some comments during public testimony that Magnuson 11 says one thing and our plan amendment says something else and 12 that they were suggesting that I assume this motion that they 13 heard during committee doesn't necessarily relate to the goals 14 and the objectives of the plan as it was structured. 15 16 They did agree that some changes perhaps needed to be tweaked 17 and so I would ask that staff, as they go through this list, if 18 there's anything else that they need to put in there that we 19 have missed as far as addressing the goals and the objectives of 20 the plan that they also include some discussion about that. Can 21 I do that without actually making it part of the motion? 22 23 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Kay, I think that's certainly implied in 24 reviewing the plan. I don't think that requires a motion. 25 26 MR. SAPP: This is a question or comment for Dr. Bortone. One 27 of the things that we included is some discussion on the issue 28 of intersector share transfers, which obviously is really 29 talking about the whole allocation issue, and we've had some 30 other discussions during committee meetings about allocation. 31 32 Without changing the motion, do you think that staff understands 33 that we probably ought to include some discussion about when a 34 review of the actual allocation is appropriate or if it's best 35 done through intersector share transfers? Can you make that 36 part of the category that we've already got included? 37 38 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Yes, that will be included. 39 40 MS. WILLIAMS: When we're looking at allocations, we have 41 developed how we would go about looking at allocations and 42 sector allocations and I believe that's more to what Ed Sapp is 43 referring to and I don't believe that this discussion paper has 44 anything to do with that, because this is a review of that plan 45 and it's not a review about reallocation. I think that would be 46 inappropriate for staff to include that, because we have a 47 mechanism that we are supposed to address that under. Thank 48 you. 102 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion of the motion on the 3 floor? All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye; 4 opposed. The motion passes. 5 6 MR. GILL: The next section was the IFQ Finance Program. Assane 7 Diagne discussed proposed provisions of the fishery finance 8 program and outlined steps to be taken by council if it wanted 9 to request participation in the loan program. 10 11 The new provisions would allow some Gulf fishermen to finance 12 IFQ purchases through loans. After committee discussions, a 13 motion recommending that the council send letters to the 14 Secretary requesting the establishment of a finance program for 15 each of the red snapper and grouper/tilefish catch share 16 programs failed on a voice vote. 17 18 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Would anyone like to resurrect that? 19 20 MR. GILL: In committee, the motion did not receive any support 21 and I think it's functionally two things. One is most folks I 22 don't think understood it, number one, and Mr. Riechers gave 23 concerns about timing and content, et cetera, and they all have 24 validity. 25 26 We did hear testimony yesterday from a number of folks 27 expressing interest in this program and so I move that we table 28 the consideration of the IFQ Finance Program until the next 29 meeting. 30 31 DR. MCILWAIN: I'll second that. 32 33 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: A motion to table is not debatable and so we'll 34 move it up or down. All in favor of tabling it to the next 35 meeting signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion is tabled. 36 37 MR. GILL: The next section was Red Grouper Regulatory Amendment 38 – Codified Text of Regulations and Update Assessment Issues. 39 Phil Steele reviewed the changes made to the codified rules, Tab 40 B, Number 4. 41 42 In the definition of buoy gear, language that referred to an 43 intent to fish the gear vertically was removed, due to 44 enforcement concerns. The shallow-water grouper quota and the 45 red grouper commercial quota were set at 5.81 million pounds 46 gutted weight and 4.32 million pounds gutted weight, 47 respectively. 48 103 1 The greater amberjack commercial quota, which had been 2 inadvertently removed in an earlier action, was reintroduced. 3 Finally, the red grouper accountability measures were revised to 4 clarify the intent to reduce the following year's quota by the 5 amount of the overage and to reduce the season length. 6 7 Bonnie Ponwith reviewed issues that had recently been discovered 8 with the gag update assessment regarding the gag size 9 distribution estimate of released fish for private and for-hire 10 vessels. 11 12 In the assessment, all of the releases were just under the 13 twenty-two-inch minimum size limit, whereas the headboat data 14 showed a more realistic size distribution of undersized released 15 fish. 16 17 Another issue is that the update assessment had estimated dead 18 discards from the commercial gag fishery to be about 5,000 fish 19 per year, but the revised estimates from the observer data were 20 on the order of 200,000 pounds of fish. To correct the results 21 of the update assessment, the Science Center is proposing to 22 bring back the Update Assessment Work Group and rerun the update 23 assessment with adjustments to the recreational undersized 24 discard data and to the estimate of commercial discards based on 25 observer data. 26 27 The reanalysis would be done as soon as possible, but not for at 28 least two weeks. The results of the reanalysis were expected to 29 be available to the council by its February 2011 meeting. 30 31 Similar issues had been discovered with the red grouper update 32 assessment, but to a lesser magnitude, and the data was not all 33 off in the same direction. The Science Center felt that the red 34 grouper update assessment was acceptable as it stands. 35 36 The committee had concerns about the red grouper assessment and 37 considered deferring action on the red grouper amendment until a 38 reanalysis of the assessment could be conducted. After 39 discussion, the committee felt that the need to have a TAC 40 reduction in place by January 1 outweighed the concerns about 41 the magnitude of the red grouper issues, but that the impacts on 42 the red grouper assessment should be evaluated for possible 43 action later. 44 45 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 46 move, to approve the Red Grouper Regulatory Amendment and deem 47 it necessary and appropriate. 48 104 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 2 3 MR. PHIL STEELE: Mr. Chairman, in Tab B, Number 4, under 4 Section 622.42 regarding quotas, the shallow-water grouper 5 combined quota I reported the other day was 5.81 million pounds. 6 That is an error. It did not include the other shallow-water 7 grouper. The correct figure for the shallow-water grouper 8 combined quota should be 6.22 million pounds. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That doesn't have any impact on this motion 11 significantly though does it? 12 13 MR. STEELE: It's part of the rule you're deeming. The correct 14 number is 6.22 instead of 5.81. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion? 17 18 MR. GRIMES: Since it doesn't mention the regulations, I would 19 just like the discussion to indicate that you're not actually 20 deeming the regulatory amendment, but it's the regulations 21 themselves that you're submitting and deeming necessary and 22 appropriate. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Counselor. Further discussion? Any 25 objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 26 27 MR. GILL: By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, 28 and I so move, that the Southeast Fisheries Science Center look 29 at the observer discard information with regard to red grouper 30 and determine the magnitude of impact to the stock assessment. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 33 discussion? Objection? Hearing none, the motion passes. 34 35 MR. GILL: In order for the gag update assessment work group to 36 reconvene, the committee passed the following motion. By a 37 unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so move, 38 that the Review Panel for the Gag Assessment be reconvened. 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion or 41 objections? The motion passes. 42 43 MR. GILL: The next section was the Gag Interim Rule - Codified 44 Text of Regulations. Phil Steele reviewed the features of the 45 gag interim rule, Tab B, Number 5. The rule would close the 46 recreational fishery for the duration of the rule but would 47 allow other groupers to be caught under bag limits. 48 105 1 It would release the commercial gag quota of 390,000 pounds to 2 the IFQ system. A delay in implementing the interim rule was 3 not considered feasible because the IFQ allocation had to be 4 distributed by January. 5 6 An initial motion was made to recommend approval of the Gag 7 Interim Rule. However, in light of the uncertainty due to the 8 gag assessment issues, a substitute motion was made to prohibit 9 harvest of all gag under the interim rule. By a unanimous voice 10 vote, the committee recommends, and I so move, that the interim 11 rule prohibit the harvest of gag. 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 14 discussion? 15 16 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to speak in opposition to it, because 17 they are under the IFQ and they should be able to have some 18 shares available so that they're not releasing the fish that was 19 then going to go into the next assessment as dead discards. 20 21 I think we need to come up with a way to release at least a 22 portion of those coupons to the commercial fishery so that they 23 don't have to throw those fish back. 24 25 MR. GILL: We all heard yesterday, initiated, I believe, by 26 Commissioner Teehan to my right, an option here to allow a 27 monthly release of gag in order to utilize, if you will, the 28 discards that Kay is talking about. 29 30 That seemed to receive from the public favorable attention from 31 the industry. Another option to that is instead of going 32 through the monthly release, and I would have to ask Roy whether 33 monthly releases are practicable and not administratively over- 34 burdensome, would be an initial release of something. 35 36 As Kay points out, if there's zero harvest, there's going to be 37 discards and there's going to be impact on the fishery anyhow 38 and it makes very little sense to put the fish in the water dead 39 rather than bring them in. 40 41 I guess my first question would be, and I have several, Mr. 42 Chairman, to Roy. Could you comment on the monthly release idea 43 that floated yesterday on some kind of release of quota on a 44 monthly basis and whether it's practicable and whether or not it 45 imposes a considerable administrative burden that renders it not 46 practicable. 47 48 DR. CRABTREE: No, I don't think it poses an overly burdensome 106 1 task for us and so I think we could do it. 2 3 MR. GILL: Following on that conversation, Mr. Chairman, one of 4 the issues is, of course, if we do it on a monthly thing, how 5 much it ought to be and how slow. We heard considerable 6 discussion relative to the increased uncertainty in the 7 assessment, which renders the 390,000-pound as questionable one 8 way or the other and we don't know what that number is. 9 10 That would indicate that you want to set something less than 11 that and then if you did it on a monthly basis, it gets down 12 pretty small. For example, if you talk 25,000 pounds a month, 13 that's 300,000 pounds in the year and so that's almost all the 14 quota, but at 25,000 pounds a month, will there be sufficient 15 reduction in discards to warrant it? 16 17 One other possibility is that releasing a bulk amount at the 18 frontend may allow the little folks, who make up the bulk of the 19 fishery, to still cover the discard issue, which is what the 20 whole intent is, and not create a problem on the quota. 21 22 I think we ought to also keep in mind that this is intended to 23 be a short-term interim rule and that should we proceed on 24 schedule, the Science Center is going to come back in February 25 with the updated information and depending on what it says, we 26 may revise the interim rule and so we're talking today a rule 27 that may last for three or four months before the new interim 28 rule comes in place. 29 30 Given the balance between the bulk and the monthly, I would ask 31 your permission, Mr. Chairman, to ask if Andy Strelcheck could 32 come to the microphone and provide us a little guidance as to 33 what the impact of one or the other is so that if either seems 34 to be an appropriate way to go that we have a little better feel 35 for what the impact will be. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Andy, are you prepared to do that? 38 39 MR. STRELCHECK: As Roy has already stated from an 40 administrative standpoint, we release allocation in season and 41 so doing it monthly or in bulk really doesn't matter to us. It 42 will be obviously a little bit of an additional administrative 43 burden. 44 45 I guess what you're obviously facing is deciding balancing 46 between releasing allocation and trying to avoid targeting of 47 gag and so this is obviously intended as kind of a bycatch 48 provision for commercial fishermen. 107 1 2 I was looking at the landings data and a bulk of our landings 3 for the first four months of this year were 500 pounds or less. 4 If you release allocation in say 25,000 or 50,000-pound 5 increments for each of the first three or four months, you're 6 talking about releasing to even the top shareholders 500 to 7 1,000 pounds and so that's a very small amount over a three or 8 four-month period. 9 10 I guess my recommendation is just release it at once and keep in 11 mind that if you release a small amount -- We've landed 200,000 12 pounds for the first four months this year. If you release half 13 of that, that's still less than 10 percent of what was released 14 at the beginning of this fishing year. It's a very small 15 fraction of fish that they ultimately received this year. 16 17 Releasing in increments monthly still doesn't prevent them from 18 transferring allocation to build up allocation if they did want 19 to target a trip. They could also accumulate that allocation by 20 not fishing it in the first couple of months, until they get 21 enough to go out and actually target a trip. To me, it's just a 22 cleaner way to go ahead and release that full amount now. Even 23 the largest shareholders are still going to get a small fraction 24 of fish relative to what they have currently. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Andy, I hear you saying that, but could you 27 give us a gut feeling of if we released a bulk amount of what 28 would be a balance between what's safe and yet would be enough 29 for them to develop enough quota to target a trip? 30 31 MR. STRELCHECK: In looking at the data, there's no way for me 32 to define what's a target trip and what isn't a target trip. I 33 quickly looked at what proportion of gag landings this year were 34 represented on trips and whether they landed 10 percent gag and 35 90 percent other species or 90 percent gag and 10 percent other 36 species, there were trips that exceeded 1,000 or 1,500 pounds up 37 to 2,000 pounds. 38 39 A bulk of the trips landing gag right now are 500 pounds or 40 less. Most of the shareholders in this fishery, if you're 41 releasing 25,000 to 100,000 pounds of allocation, are going to 42 receive on the order of 100 pounds or less. Certainly there are 43 some hi-liners with a lot more shares than that, but even the 44 hi-liners are going to receive approximately 500 to 2,000 pounds 45 and so we're not talking huge numbers of fish here. 46 47 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Let's keep in mind that the primary purpose of 48 doing this is as a bycatch mechanism anyway and so any other 108 1 questions for Andy? Mr. Gill, do you want to continue? 2 3 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As Andy pointed out, the 4 track record this year is roughly 50,000 pounds a month. It's a 5 little bit less in January and February and a little bit more in 6 March and April. 7 8 As I mentioned, the information that we got relative to the 9 assessment increases the uncertainty as to what that number 10 ought to be. It seems to me a number, relative to your 11 question, that ought to work would be if we released 100,000 12 pounds bulk and then we're coming back in February and we're 13 going to be, hopefully, readdressing the situation. 14 15 We're addressing the discard situation and accommodating the 16 situation we have at hand until we can get better information to 17 address it. With that in mind, I would like to offer a 18 substitute motion that the interim rule establish a commercial 19 quota of 100,000 pounds of gag and zero pounds for the 20 recreational sector. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: It's been moved and seconded. Any further 23 discussion? 24 25 DR. CRABTREE: I would like to get you on the record to talk a 26 little bit about how this is fair and equitable. I think we're 27 shutting down the recreational fishery temporarily, but I think 28 our intent is to allow a recreational fishery later in the year, 29 but I think it would be good for you to get something on the 30 record to that effect, because I think we'll have questions 31 about that raised. 32 33 MR. GILL: I would love to be in a position where we could do 34 something similar for the recreational sector and I think Roy's 35 point is well taken. The problem is that there's no way to 36 control it. We can't constrain it and given that, we don't have 37 any choice, at least in the short term, but to set it at zero. 38 39 If we had some kind of system in place where we could control 40 that, I would be happy to initiate it or support it, but we 41 don't and so we've got to deal with what we have and the whole 42 intent of releasing some for the commercial sector is we're 43 going to have discards anyway and there's no sense in throwing 44 them back in the water. You might as well bring them in and 45 that's probably not a bad number for what the discards might be, 46 based on the information that we got. 47 48 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Shep, did you want to comment and then Ed? 109 1 2 MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With all due respect to 3 Mr. Strelcheck's recommendation and your motion, but keep in 4 mind the whole point of this, as Dr. Shipp pointed out, is it's 5 to deal with the discard issue. 6 7 I heard some discussion that you wanted to allow for some 8 targeted trips, which seems like it's exactly what you don't 9 want to encourage. You want to allow guys to go out and target 10 red grouper and be able to keep those gag that they would be 11 throwing over dead and not releasing enough quota so that guys 12 have an incentive to go out and target gag. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: To that point, Mr. Gill? 15 16 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Grimes, as Andy pointed 17 out, there's precious few targeted trips with this number and 18 1,000 or 1,500 pounds on a trip does not constitute much of a 19 targeted trip. You can't make it on that and so it effectively 20 minimizes targeted trips and that's the whole intent. 21 22 As you point out, what we're trying to do is accommodate for the 23 discards that happen anyway and so this number, based on the 24 information that Andy provided us, doesn't permit many, if any, 25 targeted trips, with the possible exception of a hi-liner or 26 two. It's a minimal kind of number, but it certainly is pointed 27 to trying to accommodate the discard issue and that's the whole 28 intent of this motion. 29 30 MR. SAPP: When we had discussion of the interim rule at the 31 last council meeting, I agreed a little bit reluctantly or 32 hesitatingly to agree with an interim rule that would allow some 33 harvest by the commercial sector but none by the recreational 34 sector. 35 36 At that point, part of my willingness to agree to that and to 37 vote in favor of it was with the understanding that when we got 38 to this meeting that we would be developing a final rule. Part 39 of the conversation we had was that the recreational sector 40 would in fact be able to harvest their portion of the quota 41 under the final rule later in the fall of next year. 42 43 My reluctance at this point is that obviously we have not had 44 the opportunity to develop that final rule and so I don't know 45 necessarily what form it's going to take and I don't have the 46 assurance that the recreational sector will be allowed to 47 participate in the harvest. 48 110 1 Setting that aside, I'm going to support this and I do it with 2 the hope and understanding and expectation that we will all do 3 everything that we can to come up with some suite of management 4 measures that will allow participation by the recreational 5 sector later in the year in the final rule when we finally pass 6 it. 7 8 DR. CRABTREE: I agree with you on that, Ed. I think that's our 9 intent and I think any discussion of allowing targeted trips, if 10 that was said, was a slip of the tongue. I think our intent 11 here is clear that we're trying to cover incidental catch and 12 not provide for targeted trips. 13 14 I think one thing we need to clarify in terms of intent is our 15 original request that we passed at the last meeting also had a 16 provision in it to eliminate multiuse shares and I'm assuming 17 it's our intent to still stand by our original request with 18 respect to multiuse shares, which was not to allow red grouper 19 to be converted over to additional gag. Is that correct? The 20 record is clear that that is our intent that that provision in 21 the original request is still part of this request. 22 23 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That's correct. 24 25 MR. GREENE: This may be a little bit out of order, but I was 26 going to just see what your feelings were about maybe an 27 incidental bycatch for the recreational sector of maybe one per 28 boat or something along those lines, to kind of ease the tension 29 a little bit. I don't know if that would be appropriate at this 30 time or not. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I don't think it's out of order, but I think 33 it's a near impossibility to do. It certainly would not be part 34 of this motion. Any further discussion on this motion? All in 35 favor of the motion signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion 36 passes unanimously. Do you oppose? You have to, don't you? 37 38 DR. CRABTREE: I'm not sure when we're modifying it, but to be 39 safe, I'm going to oppose it. 40 41 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Go ahead, Mr. Gill. 42 43 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next section was a 44 Status Report on Amendment 32. In response to council 45 instructions to consolidate the Amendment 32 sections on 46 recreational management, bycatch reduction and time/area 47 closures into a single section, staff is working on combining 48 those sections and developing consolidated alternatives. 111 1 2 However, with the new issue of the size distribution of released 3 gag, possibly resulting in the need for a revised assessment, 4 new alternatives cannot be completed at this time. Roy Crabtree 5 indicated that there would likely be a one to two-meeting delay 6 in completing Amendment 32. 7 8 The expected timeline is that the Science Center will convene 9 the Update Assessment Workgroup within the next one to two 10 months. A revised assessment document should be available to 11 the council for its February 2011 meeting and final action can 12 be taken in June or August 2011. 13 14 Amendment 32 could then be implemented in late 2011 or early 15 2012. Under this timeline, the council could request a new 16 interim rule in February that could be implemented in April. 17 With an extension, this new interim rule would be in place long 18 enough to implement Amendment 32. 19 20 Andy Strelcheck gave a presentation reviewing the analyses of 21 area closures on gag and red grouper. Seven offshore areas were 22 examined for the potential impact of a year-round closure. With 23 the caveat that the reduction estimates did not account for 24 effort shifting and applied mainly to the commercial sector, the 25 percent reductions in gag removals ranges from 1.2 percent to 26 11.7 percent, with reductions in red grouper removals of 0.4 27 percent to 7.8 percent. 28 29 NMFS will attempt to provide additional analyses of area 30 closures during gag spawning season only. With respect to the 31 recreational fishery, the data are non-random, do not encompass 32 full geographic range of fishery, and are primarily from for- 33 hire mode. As a result, reductions in gag landings/discards 34 associated with spatial area closures cannot be quantified. Any 35 comment by the council? 36 37 Hearing none, the next section is Discussion of a Fish Tag 38 System for Recreational Grouper. Steven Atran reviewed a 39 discussion paper that outlined issues involved with implementing 40 a fish tag program as a way of controlling effort in the 41 recreational gag fishery. 42 43 He also described a proposal to use tags to control catch 44 through a tag-release-recapture system. Bill Teehan noted that 45 Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission was reviewing similar 46 proposals to what was in the report, including a possible reef 47 fish endorsement. Florida FWC will hold a conference call on 48 August 26 that is open to the public to further discuss these 112 1 ideas. 2 3 Tarpon tag programs exist in Florida and Alabama but few tags 4 are sold, less than 200 in Florida and only two to three in the 5 last eight years in Alabama. Texas also had a tarpon tag 6 program, but discontinued it because less than fifteen tags per 7 year were sold. Louisiana is considering tagging systems, 8 including a DNA tagging system. 9 10 Some council members felt that the tag-release-recapture 11 proposal would not work, because the gag fishery does not have a 12 catch-and-release mindset. A suggestion was made to invite an 13 MRIP representative or Dave Donaldson to discuss the data 14 collection issues before the council. Other issues regarding 15 development of a tag program were also raised by committee 16 members including: concern about tag banking, distribution and 17 allocation issues, aggregate tags versus species-by-species 18 tags, capabilities of each state to create or administer a tag 19 program, should a tag program be used to limit catch or for data 20 collection only, and how would a tag program interact with MRIP 21 or with current effort surveys? 22 23 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 24 move, that staff continue working on the fish tag discussion 25 paper and specifically address some of the state permit 26 requirements. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 29 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 30 31 MR. GILL: The next section is Black Grouper Allocation Between 32 the Gulf and South Atlantic. Carrie Simmons provided some 33 background information and reviewed Tab B, Number 8. This 34 document contains alternatives developed jointly with the South 35 Atlantic Council staff for the black grouper jurisdictional 36 allocation between the Gulf of Mexico and South Atlantic 37 Councils. 38 39 The Committee did not think Alternative 2 was a viable 40 alternative, due to the commercial shallow-water grouper IFQ 41 program. Therefore, the committee passed the following motion. 42 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 43 move that in Tab B, Number 8, that Alternative 2 be removed and 44 moved to the considered but rejected section. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 47 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 48 113 1 MR. GILL: The committee was also concerned that Alternative 3 2 would create more difficulties instead of streamlining the 3 jurisdictional allocation between the Gulf and South Atlantic 4 Councils. 5 6 There were some legal questions around Alternative 3 regarding 7 if the Gulf or South Atlantic Council could manage one sector or 8 the other across jurisdictional boundaries. Mr. David Cupka, 9 the representative from the South Atlantic Council, did not 10 think his council would be in favor of further development of 11 Alternative 3. By a unanimous voice vote, the committee 12 recommends, and I so move, that in Tab B, Number 8 that 13 Alternative 3 be removed and moved to the considered but 14 rejected section. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 17 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 18 19 MR. GILL: Next, the committee selected a preferred alternative 20 so that the South Atlantic Council would have time to review 21 this action and concur or provide a different preferred 22 alternative. 23 24 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 25 move, that in Tab B, Number 8 that the preferred alternative be 26 Alternative 4, Option b. Alternative 4 is establish a 27 jurisdictional allocation based on the Florida Keys (Monroe 28 County) jurisdictional boundary between the Gulf and South 29 Atlantic Councils for black grouper acceptable biological catch 30 (ABC) based on one of the following methods. Option b is the 31 South Atlantic equals 47 percent of ABC and Gulf equals 53 32 percent of ABC, which is established by using 50 percent of 33 catch history from 1986 through 2008 plus 50 percent of the 34 catch history from 2006 through 2008. 35 36 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a very complex committee motion. Is 37 there any discussion? Any objections? Hearing none, the motion 38 passes. 39 40 MR. GILL: We're a complex committee, Mr. Chairman. The 41 committee's rationale for selecting this preferred alternative 42 was based on the South Atlantic Council's letter requesting this 43 method for jurisdictional allocation and the fact that many of 44 the options under Alternative 4 were similar, using various 45 years of landings. 46 47 Staff was directed to put this action in the Generic ACL/AM 48 Amendment. The committee also felt in response to the South 114 1 Atlantic Council's letter it was not necessary to revisit the 2 allocation alternative every three years or after a benchmark or 3 update assessment. Instead, if the councils felt they needed to 4 revisit the jurisdictional allocation they could do so at any 5 time in a plan amendment. Any discussion by the council? 6 7 Seeing none, the next section is Discussion Paper on Red Snapper 8 Regional Management. Carrie Simmons reviewed the discussion 9 paper on potential regional management of red snapper, Tab B, 10 Number 9. 11 12 The committee discussed other potential alternatives for the 13 most appropriate location or locations to subdivide the red 14 snapper stock. A motion was made to consider two management 15 units in the Gulf of Mexico and consider any option that offers 16 those two management units. 17 18 Dr. Bob Shipp stated that due to the faunal break at Mobile Bay, 19 that location was a better place to subdivide the red snapper 20 stock than the Mississippi River or the Florida/Alabama state 21 line, based on the biological differences. However, Roy 22 Crabtree responded that there were records to support the break 23 at the Mississippi River. After discussion, the motion was 24 withdrawn. 25 26 Dr. Bonnie Ponwith noted that dividing the stock into subunits 27 different that those currently being used in the red snapper 28 stock assessment would require reanalysis of the appropriate 29 sample sizes within the various sub-units. The committee then 30 passed the following motion. 31 32 By a voice vote with one nay, the committee recommends, and I so 33 move, in Tab B, Number 9 to add a third option to create two 34 management units, with Florida being defined as the eastern 35 subunit and the other four states being defined as the western 36 subunit. 37 38 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Discussion? 39 40 MR. PERRET: Mr. Gill, I assume that eastern subunit is from the 41 Florida/Alabama line eastward, as it is with king mackerel? 42 43 MR. GILL: I would expect that is correct, Mr. Perret. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I'm a little confused. My recollection is that 46 if we added a third option -- No, never mind. I understand. 47 Any further discussion? Any objections? 48 115 1 MR. FISCHER: Where is this information going to? Where are 2 these options going to be placed, like what type of document? 3 Is this going to be in some future public paper option or where 4 are we going with it? 5 6 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I would imagine that staff would develop some 7 rationales for these and it might ultimately appear in an 8 options paper that we would either discuss and if we selected 9 preferred options, it would ultimately go to public discussion. 10 11 MR. FISCHER: After we vote on this, I would like to make a 12 motion. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Okay. The motion is on the board and any 15 further discussion on the motion on the board? All in favor of 16 the motion say aye; opposed. The motion carries. Go ahead, Mr. 17 Fischer. 18 19 MR. FISCHER: If we're going to bring this up for discussion and 20 bring it up for council discussion or public discussion and get 21 it out and flesh it out and see where it goes, I would like to 22 make a motion that we also look at an alternative that would 23 have five zones that comprise one of each state. 24 25 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Can you assist Phyllis in putting that motion 26 on the board? 27 28 DR. CRABTREE: I think with the current recreational landings 29 system that it's just not workable. The landings for 30 Mississippi in particular are just low and if you try to manage 31 Mississippi as its own zone, you're going to have CVs that are, 32 I suspect, 70 percent or more sometimes and it's going to make 33 it very difficult to manage the recreational fishery. I would 34 suggest that you not really look at more than three zones. You 35 break this down and the resolution of the data I think just 36 can't support it. 37 38 DR. BONNIE PONWITH: The way things are done now is that for the 39 MRIP data they generate one catch estimate for the recreational 40 fishery and then once those catch estimates are done, they post 41 hoc assign them to what state, in terms of understanding what 42 the individual state's contributions to that total catch were. 43 It's done mathematically as opposed to standing on the dock and 44 saying this is a Mississippi boat and that is an Alabama boat. 45 46 Roy is right that if you were to actually try and do stand-alone 47 catch estimates on a state-by-state basis that the sample size 48 requirements would be extremely high, especially -- As an 116 1 analogy, we talked a little bit about the difference between 2 doing catch estimates for gag discards versus catch estimates 3 for sea turtle discards. 4 5 It's hard for the sea turtles because they're rare events and 6 it's that same thing. You end up with a high variance when you 7 have a low population to analyze. 8 9 MR. GILL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 10 11 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I failed to get a second on that motion and so 12 unless I get a second, we're going to terminate discussion. I'm 13 sorry, Mr. Fischer, but you didn't even get a second. 14 15 MR. FISCHER: Thank you very much for the try, Mr. Chairman. 16 17 MR. PERRET: I think though one thing that's inherent in all of 18 this data collection and I've yet to hear catch. All we're 19 hearing is landings and I suggest to staff and to NMFS and to 20 state people that we have to get a better handle on catch. 21 22 Robin thinks I'm always picking on he and Texas with their state 23 fishery, but at least Texas, and when Florida had their state 24 red snapper fishery, we saw that those fish were being caught. 25 They were being landed, but they were also caught in state 26 waters. We need a lot better handle on where the fish are being 27 caught and not where they're being landed. 28 29 MR. TEEHAN: In deference to my compatriot from Mississippi, I 30 don't think you can logically necessarily draw the conclusion 31 that if they were claimed to be caught in state waters that they 32 actually were. 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Gill, would you continue? 35 36 MR. GILL: The committee also requested that in the next draft 37 of the discussion paper that shrimp effort be partitioned under 38 the various options for dividing the red snapper stock into 39 subunits. Any discussion by the council? 40 41 Seeing none, the next section was a Discussion Paper on 42 Potential Red Snapper Changes. Carrie Simmons reviewed the 43 short discussion paper on potential red snapper changes to 44 management that was requested at the February council meeting 45 after receiving the update stock assessment, Tab B, Number 10. 46 47 The paper listed items that could be further developed or that 48 were being developed in other amendments such as the Generic 117 1 ACL/AM Amendment. The committee did not make any motions or 2 recommendations regarding this discussion paper. Any further 3 discussion by the council? 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Yes. I don't know if this is the appropriate 6 time or not, but several times I have brought up the idea of the 7 stock assessment and a review of the mortality, the fishing 8 mortality, the way it's calculated and whether it's weight or 9 numbers of fish. 10 11 I would entertain a motion that we ask Dr. Clay Porch to come to 12 the next council meeting and give a presentation on the pros and 13 cons of modifying the fishing mortality method that's used in 14 the stock assessment. 15 16 DR. CRABTREE: I think what you're asking is for them to discuss 17 giving us estimates of the total allowable catch in numbers of 18 fish rather than weight. Isn't that what we're after? I don't 19 think this has anything to do with how the fishing mortality is 20 calculated in the assessment. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Like I said, I don't know whether this is the 23 appropriate time to make this request or not, but yes, what you 24 described is actually what I would wish. 25 26 MR. GILL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. You can't make a 27 motion. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That's what I said, that I would entertain such 30 a motion. 31 32 MR. GILL: I was rebuffing Mr. Teehan. 33 34 MR. SIMPSON: I don't think that's correct. The chairman loses 35 no authority by being chairman. He can make a motion, 36 technically. 37 38 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Perret has agreed to make the motion. Is 39 there a second? Is there further discussion or is there any 40 discussion? 41 42 MS. WILLIAMS: Is that the motion on the board? We need to make 43 sure we have the motions on the board that we're going to vote 44 on. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think that's a good point and if we could 47 phrase it closer to what Roy described. 48 118 1 DR. CRABTREE: What you want is a presentation on the pros and 2 cons of setting the recreational quota in numbers versus pounds. 3 4 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That would be fine. 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Roy, I asked about numbers of fish in pounds and 7 what our stock assessment people tell me is that's what they do. 8 They look at the number of the fish and it's actually 9 extrapolated out into pounds and that's how they set the quotas 10 now and so how is that different, because that's what they do 11 now in the assessment. 12 13 DR. CRABTREE: I guess that's what Clay would talk to us about, 14 but usually the assessments track numbers of fish at age by year 15 and then they go through a process of giving you biomass 16 estimates. Exactly how they would make those conversions -- I 17 think what we would like to hear from them, it seems to me, is 18 to look back in time and say, okay, if in these previous few 19 years had we set the TAC in terms of numbers, here's what it 20 would have been versus in weight. Maybe we could get some feel 21 then of how it would work out and whether it would have an 22 impact on the fishery or not. 23 24 I suspect the answer is it's not going to have any impact on the 25 number of days or the season or any of those things, but I think 26 we ought to look at it, because people have asked. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We'll find out. 29 30 MR. ANSON: I think the motion ought to include commercial or 31 just not mention either of them if the intent is to look at 32 numbers as a way of going forward to manage both the commercial 33 and recreational sectors. 34 35 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Perret, would you accept that as a friendly 36 amendment? 37 38 MR. PERRET: I accept and thank you. 39 40 MR. RIECHERS: Dr. Crabtree, we've heard it in the past and in 41 fact, I think we actually started down the road years ago of 42 doing it this way, but it's also, instead of using biomass 43 targets, using a fishing mortality target, given that discussion 44 about whether a stock is trending upwards or trending downwards 45 or remaining flat and the pros and cons of that as we try to 46 adjust our TACs and so forth in relation to that. 47 48 I think there is room in this type of motion and I think in fact 119 1 what our chairman was also wanting to see was some of that 2 discussion here as well. I'm not certain exactly the 3 appropriate wording to get that included in this motion, but I 4 think that's also what we would like to see. 5 6 DR. CRABTREE: Yes and I think that was the comment that Russell 7 Nelson brought up, but at least part of that discussion is 8 getting more frequent estimates of fishing mortality rates to 9 make that work, because if you're only getting fishing mortality 10 rate estimates at three or four-year intervals, I'm not sure 11 there's any way to work around that, but that's fine. 12 13 MR. RIECHERS: Is it understood that that's included or should 14 our maker of the motion add "and in setting our rebuilding 15 targets based on fishing mortality and not a pounds estimate or 16 not a pounds target"? 17 18 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think that Clay will understand what our 19 intention is and we'll leave the breadth to him, but I will 20 communicate with him as well and kind of describe what we want, 21 as well as some of the SSC members. 22 23 MR. TEEHAN: I think this will be very helpful. This has been a 24 debate that's gone on with stakeholders for a long time and I 25 don't see why we're going to debate this much longer. Can we 26 call the question on this one? 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We can indeed. Any objection to calling the 29 question? Hearing none, all in favor of the motion signify by 30 saying aye; opposed. The motion passes. Back to Mr. Gill. 31 32 MR. GILL: Our next section was Recommendations for the 2010 33 Supplemental Recreational Red Snapper Season. Andy Strelcheck 34 gave a presentation reviewing the National Marine Fisheries 35 Service analyses of reopening the recreational red snapper 36 season. Data from MRFSS was available through June and headboat 37 survey data was available through July 23. 38 39 Mr. Strelcheck stated that he had not received any data for the 40 2010 season from Texas, but Robin Riechers indicated that catch 41 data for June and July had been provided to the Science Center. 42 After some discussion, Mr. Strelcheck felt that the 25 percent 43 reduction in Texas effort for the entire year that he had 44 estimated and the 35 percent reduction that the June and July 45 data showed were not that different and would likely have little 46 effect on the results. The analyses concluded that about two- 47 thirds of the recreational red snapper quota remained and the 48 fishery could be reopened for up to thirty-nine days. 120 1 2 The committee discussed a suggestion to move the unused quota 3 and add it to 2011. However, that would require waiting for the 4 final data to be available and would require going to the SSC 5 and asking them to reconsider the acceptable biological catch 6 for 2011. 7 8 The committee also discussed suggestions to reopen the season 9 only on weekends. A motion was made to reopen the red snapper 10 season only on weekends, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, beginning 11 September 17, 2010 and running through November 28, 2010, with 12 the weekend beginning at sunrise on Friday and ending at 11:59 13 p.m. on Sunday. This would total thirty-three fishing days. 14 15 Dr. Crabtree cautioned that the thirty-nine-day estimate was 16 based on a continuous opening. Weekends likely have higher 17 effort and the number of days available would be considerably 18 less. He cautioned that if the ABC for 2010 was exceeded that 19 he would not be able to approve any increase in TAC without a 20 new stock assessment. 21 22 Dr. Crabtree made a substitute motion to reopen the red snapper 23 fishery at 12:01 a.m. on October 1, 2010, fishing Friday, 24 Saturday, and Sunday, and closing at 12:01 a.m. on November 15, 25 2010, for twenty-one fishing days. The substitute motion failed 26 by a vote of two to three and the original motion was then 27 passed. 28 29 By a vote of three to two, the committee recommends, and I so 30 move, to begin the reopening of the red snapper season only on 31 weekends beginning September 17, 2010, and running through 32 November 28, 2010, with the weekend beginning at sunrise on 33 Friday and ending at 11:59 p.m. on Sunday. 34 35 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion and I assume we're 36 going to have some discussion. 37 38 MR. TEEHAN: I would like to offer a substitute motion, if I 39 could. 40 41 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: You may indeed. 42 43 MR. TEEHAN: I would like to move to begin the recreational red 44 snapper season on Labor Day weekend, which would be the 4th, 5th, 45 and 6th of September, Labor Day weekend only, and then close and 46 then reopen for the entire month of October. I can straighten 47 those times out if we get a second. 48 121 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Do we have a second? 2 3 MR. SAPP: Second. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Discussion? 6 7 MR. TEEHAN: I think that we need to get the word out as soon as 8 we can that seafood is safe and that fishing is open and Labor 9 Day weekend is coming up in a couple of weeks and that would be 10 a good time for the economy. 11 12 There's going to be a lot of folks here for the weekend at the 13 beaches and I think that those two reasons are my justification 14 and then just to have it for the Labor Day weekend and then 15 reopen for the month of October, because that seems to be also 16 what the economy and the folks that are concerned with the 17 economy in the State of Florida -- They would like to see a full 18 slug of a month so that they can advertise and so that they can 19 get people here for the entire week as opposed to just weekends. 20 21 MR. FISCHER: I agree with what Teehan is saying. I just think 22 Labor Day is the wrong time, because the Gulf is not open and we 23 haven't deemed the seafood is safe to eat yet. After that 24 determination is made, then I would support a motion like this, 25 but we still have the vast majority of the Gulf closed and so I 26 can't support it, but I also think it's not the correct thing to 27 do. 28 29 There are areas open, the Texas area and the south Florida area, 30 all the same areas that had their full fifty-something days. 31 They'll get reopened for bonus days, but the areas that are 32 impacted will still be closed. 33 34 MR. GILL: I have the same concerns with this that Myron has. 35 There will be a lot of areas still closed on Labor Day and part 36 of the point of reopening is to allow those folks that were 37 excluded to be included. I'm going to offer an amended motion 38 to delete the "starting on Labor Day" through the "close and" 39 and delete that section. It will read: To begin the reopening 40 of red snapper season for the entire month of October. 41 42 MR. PERRET: Second. 43 44 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have an amendment on the board. Would you 45 help Trish with that, Mr. Gill? 46 47 MR. GILL: It's to delete "starting on Labor Day" all the way 48 through "reopen" and so it will read: To begin the reopening of 122 1 the red snapper season for the entire month of October. 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Perret seconded. Discussion on the 4 amendment? 5 6 MR. SAPP: I agree with what the amendment did and I absolutely 7 agree with Mr. Fischer and with Mr. Gill that it would be 8 inappropriate for us to reopen at this time. We need to utilize 9 this availability of some additional days during a time when the 10 people that have been most affected by the closures due to the 11 oil spill can participate. 12 13 If we do it two weeks from now, we're going to be limiting that 14 participating to, in most part, the folks that were already able 15 to participate during the first season when we held it. I won't 16 support the amended motion until we have some discussion about 17 weekend openings as opposed to a straight-through opening. 18 19 I tend to support the idea of using this as an opportunity for 20 us to experiment, if you will, with the notion of opening on 21 weekends and if it works out favorably and everybody likes it 22 and law enforcement agrees that it's a doable solution, we might 23 then have the opportunity to look at weekend openings as a way 24 of extending our seasons when we pass final management measures 25 at some point in the future. I'm opposed to the original 26 amendment and the amended amendment. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: A point of order. We have to either pass or 29 not the amendment, but that doesn't mean we've accepted the 30 motion. It would just mean that this amendment to that motion 31 has been added and then we can decide whether we want to add 32 substitute motions or not. 33 34 MR. RIECHERS: I was prepared to make a substitute, but Mr. Gill 35 beat me to that punch there. I'm going to speak against the 36 notion of this particular amendment and/or the substitute, 37 however we go down that road and my rationale is this. 38 39 I think I, like some others, are favoring a notion of weekends 40 and spreading that time out. We did hear testimony yesterday 41 that several of the people felt like they would like those 42 weekends. I thought it was about split between weekends and 43 October, but within the context of some of that testimony, they 44 spoke to that it's going to be a different fishery than it would 45 typically be in the summer. 46 47 It's going to be locals who are going to take advantage or 48 people who are geographically removed from the coast but 123 1 probably not extremely geographically and not a lot of out-of- 2 state participation. 3 4 What I would recommend we do is look at a weekend opening 5 running from September 17 to November 7. That would be eight 6 weekends and that would be in the neighborhood of twenty-four 7 days. That would be in that kind of sweet spot that Andy put on 8 the board yesterday in his Slide 5. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Robin, I think you're out of order. 11 12 MR. RIECHERS: I'm not recommending it now. I'm saying what I 13 would recommend. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I want to hold the discussion to discussion of 16 the amendment and then we'll -- 17 18 MR. RIECHERS: I'm against the amendment, but we're trying to 19 show people what other options are out there, sir. 20 21 MS. WILLIAMS: I was going to speak in opposition to the 22 amendment, but I wanted to make a substitute motion. Is there 23 not room? 24 25 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: No, we have to vote on the amendment first and 26 then we either vote the amendment up or down and then we go back 27 to the original motion and then you can make a substitute 28 motion. 29 30 MS. WILLIAMS: I'll hold then, but put me back on that list. 31 32 MR. PERRET: I don't know why Gill confuses things. I wish he 33 would have just made a substitute motion that we open at 12:01 34 a.m. on October 1 and close at 12:01 a.m. on October 31. We've 35 all heard a tremendous amount of testimony and we've got a 36 tremendous amount of email and we all want to do what we can, 37 number one, to be conservative. We've heard about being 38 conservative. I don't think there's anyone at this table that's 39 not wanting to be conservative. 40 41 We heard Andy and Dr. Crabtree say that there's roughly 2.3 42 million available, which would be roughly thirty-nine days, if I 43 recall correctly. That was based on a continuous opening. We 44 know we will have more pressure on weekends rather than on the 45 entire week, if it were open that way, in my opinion. 46 47 We've heard from law enforcement the problems with weekend-only 48 openings and opening and closing and opening and closing. I 124 1 think it's going to be difficult for them and I think it's going 2 to confuse the public. 3 4 I would support the Labor Day thing if I thought we had enough 5 areas that had been closed reopened, but I don't think we do and 6 I think what we all are trying to do is to give as many people 7 in the fishing community, the tourism community, the hotels and 8 motels -- The gentleman from Florida I thought made a very good 9 point yesterday, the hotel representative, even though we heard 10 from the guy from Grand Isle that they don't have any rooms 11 available for people to come down. 12 13 The house boat I stay on in Venice is leased to BP and so I've 14 got to make day trips if I can go out of Venice. I've got no 15 place to stay anymore and so there are all sorts of issues on 16 this thing, but I do think October 1 through the 31st would be 17 best for the most people and the widest geographical area and it 18 would give Dr. Crabtree, FDA, and the states that are working on 19 collecting samples and protocol the opportunity to get as much 20 of the areas we can that's oil free and seafood tested and oil 21 free reopened. I just think it would be the best thing for the 22 most people. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I want to make a correction. What the 25 amendment is, it's to remove the Labor Day weekend from the 26 original motion and so, Trish, rather than the amendment to read 27 as you have it up there, which is going to be the final motion, 28 what we need to vote on for the amendment is to remove the Labor 29 Day weekend. That's the amendment. 30 31 MR. PERRET: I support the amendment. 32 33 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If we vote this up, then we will revert back to 34 the motion which is essentially what Mr. Perret described. Does 35 anyone object to voting on this amendment so we can move ahead? 36 All in favor of this amendment signify by saying aye; opposed. 37 The amendment carries. Let's go back to the motion as amended, 38 which is October. 39 40 DR. MCILWAIN: I would speak in favor of the amended motion to 41 open at 12:01 on October 1st and close October 31 at 11:59. I 42 think by pushing it back to a later date that we give the people 43 in the middle of the Gulf, northern Gulf, a greater opportunity 44 to have an area that's open for them to fish. 45 46 The idea that it's a more enforceable timeframe for law 47 enforcement people -- Also, it gives our fishing community and 48 the hotel/motel industry enough time to really get out and 125 1 advertise and campaign and get people down to the Gulf to go 2 fishing and so I speak in favor of this amended motion. 3 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I make a substitute motion? 5 6 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: You can make one more substitute motion. Let's 7 keep in mind where we are. The original motion was Mr. Teehan's 8 and this is the substitute motion and we're allowed one more 9 substitute motion. 10 11 MS. WILLIAMS: I would like to make a substitute motion to 12 reopen the red snapper fishery at 12:01 a.m. on October 1, 2010, 13 fishing Friday, Saturday, and Sunday and closing at 12:01 a.m. 14 on November 15, 2010 and that will be twenty-one fishing days. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second to Mr. Williams' motion? 17 18 MR. SAPP: Second. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there discussion? 21 22 MS. WILLIAMS: I looked through the calendar and October 1st, to 23 me, would give some of the areas time to know if their waters 24 are even going to be open, but it also gave the industry time to 25 book trips on the weekend and closing on -- Actually, this was 26 Dr. Crabtree's motion. Closing on November 15, 2010 with those 27 twenty-one fishing days, that -- Everyone that came to that 28 podium said whatever you choose, we don't want to exceed our 29 TAC. That would be twenty-one days and so more or less -- 30 They're probably not going to fish every one of those days, 31 because you will still have weather on the weekends, but this 32 will keep them within that TAC without overrunning it. 33 34 MR. RIECHERS: I want back on the list when we do whatever we're 35 going to do with this one. This is getting closer to where I 36 would like to be, but I would like to move that start date up 37 into the middle of September. We know we're going to have some 38 -- We hope we will have some more areas open by then, but we 39 don't know that for certain and we're not going to know that for 40 certain as we make our decision here today. 41 42 As we move later into November, we just have more issues. I 43 think if we could slide it a couple weeks and go into November, 44 at least into that first weekend of November, we're getting 45 closer to what we want to do there. With that, I still am going 46 to try to get that motion up on the board and thus, will speak 47 against this motion at this time. 48 126 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: You have the option of amending this motion if 2 you would like. No? 3 4 MR. PERRET: I hate to speak against my colleague and whoever 5 seconded her motion, but the rationale I gave for the straight 6 October 1 to October 30 I think is applicable. I just don't 7 think we should go with weekends only. 8 9 The data analysis was on a continuous period. We know weather 10 could impact weekends and the people that would be coming down 11 to fish on the weekends obviously probably wouldn't be able to 12 stay throughout the week for the next weekend and so I just 13 think a straight-through would be a lot better, a lot simpler, 14 and better to get data and so on and so forth. I speak against 15 it. 16 17 MR. MCKNIGHT: Can I add to this motion? 18 19 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: No, I'm instructed that we cannot. We either 20 have to vote this one up or down. 21 22 MR. GILL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I don't think that's 23 correct. I think the problem with the amended motion as offered 24 by Robin is it goes back and then becomes the committee motion 25 that we made. If he wants to amend this in some other fashion 26 in a whole new form, I think that's permitted. 27 28 MR. RIECHERS: If you'll allow, I'll try then. 29 30 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I will allow. 31 32 MR. RIECHERS: I'll amend it to go from 12:01 a.m. on -- 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Robin, structure it as an amendment. Don't try 35 to amend that motion. Just put an amendment so we can vote on 36 the amendment. 37 38 MR. RIECHERS: Trish is suggesting, as my count had it, that we 39 have three items on the board, but, again, if the chair will 40 allow me, I'll do it. 41 42 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: The chair will allow it so that everybody has a 43 chance to get what they want. 44 45 MR. RIECHERS: The amendment would change the current motion to 46 read -- Let's just change the dates. It would change the dates 47 from October 1, 2010. 48 127 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: No, word it as an amendment and don't try to 2 change the motion. 3 4 MR. RIECHERS: The amendment would change that motion by saying 5 September 17, 2010. It would change the dates in that motion 6 from September 17, 2010 to November 7, 2010. What that 7 effectively does is add one more weekend and pull the weekend 8 closer this way. If I get a second, I will actually speak to 9 what I was trying to get to a while ago, which is the notion of 10 fewer days than the thirty-nine and what I think that will do 11 for us and the decreased effort in those two months. 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Do we have a second for the amendment? 14 15 MR. HENDRIX: Second. 16 17 MR. PERRET: I speak against it. The main reason is I think 18 September 17 is too early. There will be areas that will 19 probably still be closed that we're trying to reopen in the 20 northern Gulf and those are the areas and those are the people 21 that have been impacted the greatest and I think the longer we 22 can prolong reopening, we will possibly have more areas that 23 have been closed to allow fishermen that have been deprived of 24 the opportunity to fish to fish. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Again, for clarification, and I wish we had 27 done this before, Robin. If you had structured yours as an 28 amendment, then we wouldn't have this confusion, but if we -- 29 30 MR. RIECHERS: I structured it as an amendment. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We've got it as a substitute motion. 33 34 MR. RIECHERS: That's between us and these folks over here. 35 36 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think everybody understands the intent and so 37 are we ready to vote on the amendment with the opening on 38 September 17 and the closing on November 7? If we vote that up, 39 that's it, but if we vote it down, then we revert back to this 40 substitute motion as originally described. 41 42 MR. RIECHERS: I apologize, but it's November 8. The 7th is the 43 Sunday and so you've got to go to 12:01 on November 8. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Let's move ahead on this. Let's go ahead and 46 vote this one up or down. All in favor of the amendment to the 47 substitute motion signify by raising your hand; opposed. The 48 motion fails. Now we'll go back to the substitute motion, which 128 1 was Kay's, I believe. Any further discussion on this one? 2 3 MR. MCKNIGHT: Can I add to the motion? 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: You would have to -- You could either get a 6 friendly amendment. I don't remember who seconded Kay's motion. 7 8 MR. SAPP: I did. 9 10 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'm not even sure if I can do this, but I'm just 11 going to go. 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Go ahead and see and if the seconder will 14 accept the friendly amendment -- 15 16 MR. MCKNIGHT: I just want to add to this motion that if there's 17 any remaining quota, if, that it be added to the 2011 snapper 18 season. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think that's a separate discussion. We were 21 going to ask Dr. Crabtree about that and I'm sure he'll have 22 four or five possible scenarios. 23 24 MR. RIECHERS: I would suggest everyone go back and look at the 25 slides that Andy presented and when we look at it was actually 26 Slide 2 and you look at September and October and they routinely 27 have been 25 percent or so less than those other months and I 28 say routinely, but based on the information he has here. It 29 doesn't even tell us exactly which years and it looks like 2006 30 is maybe what this was. 31 32 In normal times, it's 25 percent less and it's probably not 33 going to be 25 percent less, but it's going to be somewhere in 34 that range. Weekend and weekdays seem to be more equivalent as 35 we move into the fall and so by going with twenty-one days, 36 we're being extremely conservative here. 37 38 I do believe you could add a weekend here and probably still 39 remain -- We heard a lot of testimony of make sure we stay 40 under, but we're also trying to make sure we give as much 41 opportunity for those people who haven't had an opportunity to 42 fish. That's up to the makers of the motion, but I would 43 recommend we try to get another weekend in on this on one end or 44 the other. 45 46 MR. TEEHAN: Just for clarification, could we go back and see 47 what is still on the board? Is the full month of October still 48 up as an option? Okay. Great. 129 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: This is our second substitute motion. Any 3 other discussion on this one? 4 5 MR. SAPP: I agree with Robin's notion that I would like to see 6 us extend this for one more week, to take full advantage of 7 what's available to us, but I'm not sure procedurally how to go 8 about that and so I need some help. I was the seconder of the 9 motion the way it stands up there and do I have the opportunity 10 to amend? 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: The easiest procedure, I would guess, would be 13 to ask the maker of the motion whether you could make a friendly 14 amendment and the maker of the motion is Kay. 15 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Absolutely and if it will make it easier for 17 myself to change it, I'll willing to do that also. 18 19 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: With a friendly amendment, you want to go to 20 November 22? 21 22 MR. SAPP: I would like to make a request for a friendly 23 amendment to the motion that we change the close date from 24 November 15 to November 22. 25 26 MS. WILLIAMS: I'll accept that. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Discussion on the friendly amended motion? 29 30 MR. PERRET: I appreciate that. November 22 is my birthday, but 31 it's also a Monday and so I assume you want it to close on 32 midnight on the 21st or you wanted to fish all day on Monday? 33 34 MR. SAPP: I was trying to be consistent with the way that it's 35 worded up there now, which is one o'clock Monday morning. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Does everyone understand where we are? Any 38 further discussion on this motion? All in favor of this motion 39 signify by raising your hand; opposed. The motion passes eleven 40 to five. Go ahead, Mr. Gill. 41 42 MR. TEEHAN: I just wanted to say that there was an awful lot of 43 things going on there and we all had a dog in the fight, but the 44 bottom line is we've done a good thing and we're able to give 45 some fish back. It's not going to make everybody happy, but I'm 46 feeling pretty good about what we've done. 47 48 MR. GRIMES: I would just point out too that ultimate it's a 130 1 request from the council. This is not particularly your 2 decision. It's something that the Fisheries Service will have 3 to implement and they'll take that into consideration, but 4 ultimately it is the Regional Administrator's decision. 5 6 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Grimes. We appreciate that and 7 before we leave this subject completely, I think there's a 8 sentiment amongst many of us that we may in fact still have 9 significant quota left over, due to weather, football, hunting 10 and all the rest of it. If that's the case, I would ask Dr. 11 Crabtree, is it likely that that overage would go back to the 12 SSC for discussion and might it impact the 2011 year in any way? 13 14 DR. CRABTREE: No. We're going to have this second season and 15 whatever is caught will be caught and if there's anything left 16 over, it will simply be gone, just like in previous years when 17 we went over the quota and that happened. We won't carry this 18 over. 19 20 MR. ANSON: I don't know if it will be left up to NMFS staff, 21 but does there need to be any further clarification to assist in 22 enforcement of this as far as landing? Does that strictly mean 23 12:01 landed? 24 25 DR. CRABTREE: I think we will write this such that effective 26 the 12:01 timeframe that possession is prohibited and so people 27 need to be off the water. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: One final question, Dr. Crabtree. In reference 30 to Shep's comments, when might we know whether the Fisheries 31 Service accepts this and promulgates the season? 32 33 DR. CRABTREE: We'll start working on this as soon as we get 34 back in the office and my intent would be to make a decision and 35 publish something as quickly as we can, so the public has as 36 much notice of this as we can give them. My hope would be we 37 get this done. We'll have to figure that out, but we'll do it 38 as quickly as we can. 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Back to Mr. Gill. 41 42 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The remainder of the 43 discussion on this item has just been eliminated by the motion 44 just passed. The final section that we considered in committee 45 was the Options Paper for Red Snapper TAC in 2011 and 2012. 46 47 Steven Atran reviewed an options paper for increasing the red 48 snapper TAC in 2011 and 2012. The SSC recommended a three-year 131 1 ABC yield stream for 2010 through 2012, but the council only 2 approved the 2010 increase in the February 2010 regulatory 3 amendment. 4 5 The options paper contains alternatives for no action, keep the 6 current TAC, increase TAC in 2011, or increase TAC in 2011 and 7 again in 2012. Roy Crabtree reiterated that any increase in TAC 8 was contingent upon the fishery not exceeding its ABC in the 9 current year. 10 11 Staff could likely prepare a regulatory amendment for the 12 October council meeting, but approval of an increase in TAC 13 would not be made until the final 2010 landings are available 14 early next year. 15 16 Steven Atran noted that a possible concern against raising TAC 17 was that the impact of the oil spill on eggs and larval fish was 18 unknown. Bonnie Ponwith added that general evaluations could be 19 made on the impact of the oil spill on the year class and on the 20 impact of the closed area on protecting the stock from fishing. 21 Data collections to evaluate the impacts are going on now. 22 23 An initial motion was made to proceed with the regulatory 24 amendment with Preferred Alternative 3, which was increase the 25 TAC in both 2011 and 2012. However, in light of the uncertainty 26 as to whether the catch would be constrained to its TAC, a 27 substitute motion was made to make the preferred alternative 28 Alternative 2, increase TAC only in 2011. 29 30 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 31 move, that in the options paper for the 2011-2012 red snapper 32 TAC that the preferred alternative be Alternative 2, which is 33 set the total allowable catch for 2011 using the Scientific and 34 Statistical Committee's acceptable biological catch 35 recommendation, which is 75 percent of the overfishing limit 36 defined in the 2009 red snapper stock assessment update. Total 37 allowable catch would be 7.185 million pounds. Based on the 51 38 percent to 49 percent commercial/recreational allocation of red 39 snapper, the commercial and recreational quotas would be 3.664 40 and 3.521 million pounds, respectively. 41 42 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 43 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 44 45 MR. GILL: Corky Perret noted that staying within the TAC would 46 be dependent upon consistent regulations from the states and not 47 all of the states had consistent regulations. Mr. Chairman, 48 this concludes my report. 132 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Gill. 3 4 DR. CRABTREE: Coming back to your question about when would the 5 season be announced, folks have pointed out to me that we have 6 to publish the emergency rule final rule, because that's what 7 gives us authority to have the season after October 1. We think 8 that will happen around September 15 and so my intent would be 9 to publish the decision on the season at the same time as that. 10 It's going to be a little later than I would like to do it, but 11 since we're opening in October, that's what we'll have to do. 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: One of the big concerns is promotion. I know 14 you can't give carte blanche to everybody to promote the opening 15 date, but could you provide us some level of assurance that this 16 is going to happen? 17 18 DR. CRABTREE: I think the quota is there and we've established 19 that. Based on everything we've been presented, twenty-four 20 weekend days seems within the safety realm of what we've been 21 given and so I don't see any problems with what you're 22 recommended to us and my preliminary judgment is that's likely 23 what we'll do. I'll make it official as quickly as I can, but 24 I'm stuck by the timing on the emergency rule. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there any further business before this 27 council right now? 28 29 MR. GRIMES: I apologize, but I neglected to mention in the Reef 30 Fish Committee, which I did intend to do, that in addition to 31 the sixty-day notice of intent to sue under the Endangered 32 Species Act relative to reinitiate on the shrimp fishery, we 33 also received a sixty-day notice of intent to sue relating to 34 reinitiation of Section 7 consultation on the Gulf of Mexico 35 reef fish fishery. This was submitted by the Sea Turtle 36 Conservancy, which was formerly known as Caribbean Conservation 37 Network, Center for Biological Diversity, Defenders of Wildlife, 38 Earth Justice, Gulf Restoration Network, and Turtle Island 39 Restoration Network. You may recognize these groups from the 40 plaintiffs in our ongoing litigation related to reef fish and 41 turtles and longlines. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 42 43 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Any further business 44 regarding reef fish? Hearing none, we're pretty close to being 45 on schedule and we'll take a fifteen-minute break and resume 46 according to the agenda. 47 48 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 133 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If council members would take their seats, we 3 can resume and the next agenda item is AP Selection and Mr. 4 Perret. 5 6 AP SELECTION COMMITTEE REPORT 7 8 MR. PERRET: This report is from the committee of the whole and 9 it was a closed session. The entire council membership met on 10 August 17 and there were fourteen members present. During the 11 closed session, the council discussed appointing people to fill 12 vacancies on various advisory panels and the persons appointed 13 are as follows, and this has already been approved by the 14 council: Ms. Julie Morris as vice chair and a non-voting member 15 of the Ad Hoc Reef Fish Limited Access Privilege Program 16 Advisory Panel and Dr. Elbert Whorton to the Ad Hoc Data 17 Collection Advisory Panel. That concludes my report, Mr. 18 Chairman. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Perret. Any comments? 21 22 MS. WILLIAMS: This ACL/AM workgroup that Steve was talking 23 about, do we need to address that? 24 25 SEDAR SELECTION COMMITTEE REPORT 26 27 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I don't think at this point. The next agenda 28 item is the SEDAR Selection and that is me and I will read the 29 report. Fourteen council members were present during the closed 30 session. The council appointed Jerry Sansom to attend the 31 upcoming Southeast Data Assessment Review, SEDAR, Spiny Lobster 32 Assessment Workshop. Any discussion? Any comment? Hearing 33 none, that moves us to the next agenda item, Administrative 34 Policy, Tab E, and Mr. Riechers. 35 36 ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY COMMITTEE REPORT 37 38 MR. RIECHERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Administrative 39 Policy Committee was convened on August 17 with myself, Mr. 40 Steele, Mr. Hendrix and Ms. Williams present. The agenda was 41 approved with the addition under Other Business discussions of 42 purchasing computers, air cards and providing internet service 43 for council members and a discussion regarding SSC structure. 44 45 The minutes of the June 14, 2010 meeting held in Gulfport, 46 Mississippi meeting were approved as written. The committee 47 reviewed Tab E-3, Draft Administrative Handbook, and on behalf 48 of the committee, I so move for staff to incorporate all 134 1 suggested changes up to page 53, Section XVI(3)(a), with the 2 exception of the Salary/Wage Administration on pages 8 and 9, 3 and Leave Donation on page 24. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 6 Any objection? The motion passes. 7 8 MR. RIECHERS: It was pointed out that during the review of the 9 council's SOPPs, the council voted at the June meeting to remove 10 "Council Coordination Committee" from the list of Administrative 11 Committees. Staff will remove this committee on page 32 from 12 the Administrative Handbook. 13 14 Dr. Leard advised the committee that there will be future 15 changes regarding the SEDAR guidelines and he suggested that the 16 council postpone making any revisions until the next meeting. 17 On behalf of the committee, I so move to move the discussion of 18 "Stock Assessments" to the Policy Section. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 21 Any objection? The motion passes. 22 23 MR. RIECHERS: Under Other Business, Dr. Bortone noted there has 24 been a problem with SSC attendance, especially during webinar 25 participation. The council has been attempting to use webinars 26 for some meetings, as opposed to holding physical meetings. 27 When a physical meeting is held, some members are opting to 28 participate via webinar. Staff needs to develop a procedure 29 that assures that attendance is sufficient to achieve a quorum. 30 31 On behalf of the committee, I so move that council staff look 32 into the features and attendance of our current SSC and SEDAR 33 meetings and ensure that participation is at the level that is 34 required by the council. 35 36 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Discussion? 37 Objection? The motion passes. 38 39 MR. RIECHERS: The committee did not have time to complete the 40 review of the handbook, which will be done at the October 41 meeting. Staff was instructed to make the changes approved at 42 this meeting for inclusion in the Draft Administrative Handbook 43 that will be reviewed in October. Mr. Chairman, this concludes 44 my report. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Riechers. 47 48 MS. WILLIAMS: Robin, I don't know that we addressed this, but 135 1 is it your intent when we are addressing some of those items 2 that we were going to take a look at that we do that in closed 3 session? 4 5 MR. RIECHERS: You had called, I think it was as we were dealing 6 with the salary and wage section, that you would prefer to do 7 that in closed session. I think what we asked is that we 8 determine exactly what we need to have for that closed session 9 and then obviously the chair and Dr. Bortone and myself will 10 look at that and determine whether it needs to be closed or not. 11 Certainly if we get into areas that we need to have a closed 12 session, that's what we'll be doing. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Riechers and Ms. Williams, I anticipate 15 that in October we will have a closed session. The ED's 16 evaluation will be completed at that time and whatever else 17 involving salaries and personnel, we could add that to the 18 closed session agenda. Any further discussion? We're moving 19 right along. Mr. Perret, you're back up for Shrimp Management. 20 21 SHRIMP MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE REPORT 22 23 MR. PERRET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Shrimp Management 24 Committee met August 17th and the agenda was adopted with the 25 addition of an update on the shrimp fishery Section 7 26 consultation. The April 14, 2010 minutes from the Galveston 27 meeting were approved as written. 28 29 Reinitiation of Section 7 Consultation, Ms. Jennifer Lee gave a 30 PowerPoint presentation on reinitiation of Section 7 31 consultation on the effects of shrimp trawling on Gulf sturgeon, 32 smalltooth sawfish, and sea turtles. 33 34 She stated that a biological opinion was issued in 2002 for all 35 listed species and again in 2005 and 2006 for sawfish only. The 36 reasons for reinitiation of consultations include that the take 37 statement was exceeded, new information indicates potential 38 changes from previous findings, action is modified that may 39 change findings, and new species are listed. 40 41 For Gulf sturgeon, she stated that the 2002 Biological Opinion 42 concluded that the species was not likely to be affected by 43 trawls. Consultation was being reinitiated due to a non-lethal 44 take off Alabama, but new information about distribution and 45 potential encounters still indicated that takes in federal 46 trawls are likely rare. 47 48 In regard to smalltooth sawfish, Ms. Lee stated the 2005 and 136 1 2006 opinions each anticipated only one lethal take annually. 2 She noted that reinitiation of consultation resulted from 3 exceeding allowable takes and reported that there were three 4 non-lethal takes in the Gulf during 2009 and 2010 and additional 5 takes in the South Atlantic area, with some being lethal. 6 7 She reviewed the facts on trawl impacts on sawfish and also 8 noted trawls were one of the only gear types anticipated to 9 result in adult smalltooth sawfish mortalities. Interactions in 10 other fisheries were anticipated to be nearly all non-lethal. 11 12 She reviewed the life history, distribution, and abundance of 13 smalltooth sawfish and noted that some tagging research was 14 ongoing. She showed take locations compared with the amount of 15 shrimping effort and noted that there was a higher catch 16 probability in areas of high shrimping effort. 17 18 Ms. Lee stated that consultation was being reinitiated for sea 19 turtles based on new information, including elevated strandings, 20 TED regulation compliance problems, and an increase in near- 21 shore turtle abundance, among other considerations. 22 23 She further stated that the next steps would be to continue to 24 assemble the best available scientific data and complete the new 25 biological opinions, following formal consultation 135 days from 26 getting all data compiled, including any proposed actions. Dr. 27 Crabtree pointed out that he distributed the memo on the 28 decision to reinitiate Section 7 consultation on the impacts of 29 the shrimp fishery on sea turtles. 30 31 Following discussion, the committee recommends, and I so move, 32 to request that NMFS/Gulf Council work with the Gulf and South 33 Atlantic Fisheries Foundation to conduct a workshop to examine 34 sawfish interactions in southeast shrimp fisheries. 35 36 That's the motion, Mr. Chairman, and I just may add that because 37 the issue is also in the South Atlantic that Mr. Cupka and the 38 South Atlantic Council will probably be involved with this also. 39 Thank you. 40 41 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Perret. We have a committee 42 motion. Any discussion? 43 44 MR. GILL: In a discussion with the Executive Director of the 45 Gulf and South Atlantic Foundation, they have confirmed that 46 they are happy to work with the council and the agency to 47 conduct this workshop and so that is not an issue relative to 48 this motion. 137 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Gill. Any other discussion? 3 Any objection? The motion passes. 4 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Mr. Chairman, would you note that I abstained on 6 that motion, please? Thank you. 7 8 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Anything else, Mr. Perret? 9 10 MR. PERRET: That's all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That takes us to Data Collection, Tab F, and 13 Mr. Riechers again. 14 15 DATA COLLECTION COMMITTEE REPORT 16 17 MR. RIECHERS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Data Collection 18 Committee was convened on August 18, 2010 with all members 19 present. The agenda and minutes were approved as written. Dr. 20 Froeschke reviewed Tabs F-3 and F-4, the summaries of the Ad Hoc 21 Data Collection and VMS AP meetings held August 10 and 11 in 22 Tampa, Florida. 23 24 The committee discussed recommendations provided by the Ad Hoc 25 Data Collection AP, including moving from two-month to one-month 26 waves for MRFSS data and pursuing finer geographic scales. Dr. 27 Ponwith stated that MRFSS reporting is progressing toward one- 28 month waves to improve in-season management measures. 29 30 She also stated that improving geographic resolution would be 31 possible, although additional sampling effort may be required to 32 maintain current precision of landings estimates, due to 33 inherent increases in variance associated with allocating 34 samples into smaller units. 35 36 The committee recommends, and I so move, to write a letter to 37 MRIP to encourage them to expedite stratifying the geographic 38 area and dividing the waves into single months. 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion on the board. Any 41 discussion? 42 43 MR. SAPP: I would like to offer a substitute motion, if I can. 44 The substitute motion is to write a letter to Eric Schwaab to 45 encourage MRIP to expedite stratifying the geographic area and 46 dividing the waves into single months in the Gulf of Mexico and 47 to request a response explaining when expedited improvements to 48 MRFSS could be implemented in the Gulf. It does two things. 138 1 First off, it -- 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We need a second first. We have a second. Go 4 ahead. 5 6 MR. SAPP: It does two things. First off, Dr. Crabtree 7 indicated that the appropriate person to send this to would in 8 fact be Eric Schwaab and so it instructs staff exactly what to 9 do and the second thing, it puts them on notice to provide some 10 response back to us and I'm speaking the words of our absent 11 council member Harlon Pearce, who I'm sure would say them more 12 strongly than I, that anything we can do to put this thing on a 13 tighter timetable and anything we can do to make them more 14 accountable in their reporting back to us as to how this process 15 is proceeding -- I think that addresses that issue and Harlon 16 would be proud of me. 17 18 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: He would indeed. Any further discussion on the 19 substitute motion? All in favor of the substitute motion 20 signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion carries. 21 22 MR. RIECHERS: The committee also discussed the recommendations 23 of the VMS AP. Committee discussion focused on improving 24 communication between VMS users and service providers and 25 improving methods of dispute resolution. The committee 26 recommended convening the appropriate members of industry, NMFS, 27 and the VMS AP at a future AP meeting to be held prior to the 28 February 2011 council meeting. 29 30 31 The committee recommends, and I so move, to recommend that the 32 VMS Advisory Panel be reconvened and that the chair of the VMS 33 Advisory Panel and the Chair of the Data Collection Committee 34 work with council staff to invite all of the appropriate 35 attendees to the meeting. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion of 38 the motion? Any objection? 39 40 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't object, but I just have a question. I 41 know in the past we had some vendors come before the council to 42 tell us about their service or offer their services and so I 43 just wanted to make staff aware, in case they had forgotten. 44 They may want to get back in touch with some of those folks. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any other discussion? Any objection? The 47 motion passes. 48 139 1 MR. RIECHERS: That concludes my report, Mr. Chairman. 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Riechers. That brings us to 4 Sustainable Fisheries and Mr. Riechers again. 5 6 SUSTAINABLE FISHERIES/ECOSYSTEM COMMITTEE REPORT 7 8 MR. RIECHERS: The Sustainable Fisheries/Ecosystem Committee 9 convened on August 16, 2010. The agenda was adopted as written. 10 The minutes of the June 16, 2010 meeting were adopted with the 11 changes that Bill Teehan should be listed as the designee for 12 Nick Wiley, not Ken Haddad, in this and all future minutes. In 13 addition, on page 33, line 48, "no" should be replaced with 14 "not". 15 16 With that, Robin Riechers was approved by acclamation to be 17 Chair of the Sustainable Fisheries/Ecosystem Committee to 18 replace outgoing Chair Julie Morris. 19 20 Next, we went into the Discussion on Sector Separation. Assane 21 Diagne stated that staff was looking for guidance on a range of 22 issues, including industry and public perceptions, and 23 allocation issues. To address these issues, staff discussed the 24 possibility of conducting a two to two-and-a-half-day workshop 25 in mid-November, which would include all council members plus 26 invited presenters. 27 28 Dr. Bortone added that he had been contacted by representatives 29 of the Fisheries Forum with an offer to help organize a 30 workshop. He also suggested that a survey be conducted prior to 31 the workshop to identify what council members feel are the major 32 issues to be addressed. 33 34 The estimated cost of the workshop is about $70,000. Funds are 35 available until the first of the year for a workshop, but staff 36 does not have the time to organize the workshop without help. 37 Several council members expressed support for a workshop, but 38 questioned whether the timing would allow full participation by 39 the for-hire industry. 40 41 Shepherd Grimes noted that a survey to more than fifteen 42 individuals would require OMB approval, but it was clarified 43 that the survey would be for planning purposes and would be 44 directed to the council members rather than the public. By a 45 unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so move, 46 that a workshop be held at an appropriate time to address sector 47 separation issues. 48 140 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. 2 3 MR. SAPP: Discussion if I can. I know that I and I think some 4 of the other council members were real anxious to hear testimony 5 from the public as to when it would be appropriate to hold that 6 meeting and what I heard, and I'm interested to see if you guys 7 concluded the same as I did, but we heard some support for the 8 November meeting and we heard as soon as possible, but we also 9 heard from spokesmen for the GOMARS group that they would prefer 10 to see it after the first of the year. 11 12 With that as a backdrop, I would like to further instruct staff 13 to do it sometime after the first of the year as opposed to a 14 November meeting, which we had some discussion about. 15 16 MR. GRIMES: Just a correction. The report says fifteen 17 individuals and I'm sure I said that, but the number is really 18 ten. 19 20 MR. GILL: I guess relative to Ed's comments, Dr. Bortone, we're 21 not able to carry that money over. If we obligate it in the 22 fall, would that suffice to do that or is that simply 23 transferring the money we have available and having it disappear 24 and then the funding then comes out of the council budget? 25 Could you clarify that, please? 26 27 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: This is carryover money from last 28 year which we've already made a request for carryover and so 29 it's unlikely -- Well, I won't say that. We have been told it 30 is possible that it can be carried over again, but we have to 31 make a separate application and that has to be approved and I 32 have some indication that that's possible, but there's no 33 guarantee. If it is not carried over, we would lose those funds 34 and we would have to re-budget next year and figure out how to 35 hold the conference. 36 37 MR. GILL: To that point, Dr. Bortone, the question is not that, 38 but the question is whether merely obligating those funds will 39 suffice for use of those funds in this year, in which case then 40 it is an option to hold it in the next year, but the funds are 41 all obligated. If that's not possible, then it seems to me that 42 that is not an option that this council is going to entertain. 43 44 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: They have to be spent and not just 45 obligated. 46 47 MS. WILLIAMS: I would speak in opposition of holding this 48 workshop next year, for several reasons. We do not have a 141 1 council meeting in November, December, or January and so we 2 should have plenty of time to have a meeting in November or 3 December of this year. 4 5 We've already heard from our charter for-hire industry that they 6 don't do a whole lot of fishing in November and December. Some 7 of them go hunting, but the main thing is they have time away 8 from their work to attend such a meeting and so I feel that we 9 need to have this meeting and stop putting it off and have it 10 either in November or December. Thank you. 11 12 MR. GILL: Are you looking to amend the current motion on the 13 board? 14 15 MS. WILLIAMS: It says "held at an appropriate time" and so if 16 it needs to be amended, "to be held either in November or 17 December of this year to address sector separation issues". 18 That would be my amendment. 19 20 MR. GILL: We'll get the amendment on the board and did we get 21 it right? Kay, that is your amendment? 22 23 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 24 25 MR. GILL: Mr. Fischer seconds. I had some hands prior to the 26 amendment and are they to the amendment? 27 28 MR. MCKNIGHT: I just wanted to say that there's been a lot of 29 time spent on this subject and a lot of work has been put into 30 it by people in the industry and I think it's best that we move 31 forward with this as quick as possible and not put it off any 32 longer. 33 34 MR. RIECHERS: I would just say that moving forward doesn't 35 predicate an answer of yes or no or any of those kinds of 36 things. I would say what you're asking is that you go ahead and 37 further discuss the issue. 38 39 I don't really believe this kind of meeting was what Mr. Sapp 40 had intended in the email exchange that he had that kind of got 41 a lot of this going. I'm less concerned about the timing of it 42 than I am about getting all of the appropriate people around the 43 table, because if we just put certain people who are in favor of 44 the notion around that table, we haven't really fleshed out the 45 issue. If we're going to do it, let's make sure our attendance 46 list is the thing we focus on and not necessarily the day. 47 48 MR. FISCHER: I'm for this and I'm for it to happen and I would 142 1 like to see where it goes. This doesn't guarantee we're going 2 to move in this direction, but it's just the start of a workshop 3 to see where we're going. 4 5 However, when we go to populate it, it's sector separation and I 6 think we need to keep in mind the percentage of folks we have 7 from the pure recreational versus the for-hire industry and keep 8 that in mind when we go to populate it. 9 10 MR. SAPP: Nobody wants to hold this meeting any sooner than I 11 do and if I thought we would have participation of everybody 12 that I think it's important we allow to participate, if they 13 told us that they're going to be available in November, I would 14 be the one pushing absolutely the hardest for November. 15 16 I initiated this thing when I asked for council time so that we 17 could begin to have the discussions and so a lot of you saw some 18 of the correspondence and went back and forth over the internet 19 as a result of that request that I made, but the one thing that 20 I came away from that whole exchange from was the notion that it 21 would be totally inappropriate for us to hold this meeting until 22 all of the participants have got the opportunity to be there and 23 speak their minds. 24 25 We heard in public testimony yesterday that some of those folks 26 would rather see it extended into the next year and if next year 27 means that a better way to do this would be, say, January we 28 will hold the meeting, I would be in favor of that, but I don't 29 want to set a meeting date that's going to exclude anybody and 30 that's my fear, is that's exactly what we're going to be doing 31 if we commit to holding it in November or December. 32 33 I feel a whole lot more comfortable with the January meeting, 34 but no way is this meant to be a stall or a delay tactic. I 35 want to see it happen as quick as we can. 36 37 MR. TEEHAN: I agree with the fact that we need to have this 38 thing. I think we've been sitting on this particular topic for 39 a couple of years now and the stakeholders are probably getting 40 a little bit discouraged with us and I agree with Damon's 41 comments that we need to get this figured out. 42 43 If the date of November is going to inconvenience some folks, 44 then so be it, but the quicker we get this decided, the better, 45 because this subject has been going on for a long time. 46 47 MR. GREENE: I agree. I don't know why we have to wait until 48 November. We've got a council meeting coming up in October and 143 1 let's do it between now and then. This is a big-ticket item for 2 everybody that's involved. If they don't care enough about 3 taking away from their schedule to participate, then that's too 4 bad, but that would give us one more council meeting in October 5 and then we could hash it out again in February. 6 7 I imagine when we go to October they're probably going to walk 8 away with a lot more questions than potentially answers and if 9 we go into an October council meeting with a bunch of questions, 10 then we can all sit down and hash them out and we can go back to 11 them again in November and be done with it. 12 13 This is a big-time deal and I get run over about it every time I 14 get up out of the chair to leave. I get run over about this all 15 the time and I'm tired of hearing about it and let's get on with 16 it. 17 18 MS. WILLIAMS: To Ed's comments, I also saw a lot of those 19 emails and a lot of the reference had to do with they thought, 20 and you know how the grapevine runs, that this council was going 21 to address sector separation at this meeting and take some type 22 of final action and it just -- It did upset several people, 23 because they were under some of these contracts I guess with BP 24 and the fear of not being able to be here. 25 26 Now they know in plenty of time and it isn't just some rumor 27 mill. This is not going to be a final thing and this is just 28 getting started with a workshop to be held sometime around 29 November or December. I don't really care when we hold it, but 30 I just want it done before next year. Thank you. 31 32 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Just for clarification, the reason, 33 and Kay alluded to it, that we were holding it or thought we 34 might be able to get it before the first of year is because 35 there did seem to be some urgency. It didn't look like it was 36 going to be possible to discuss it at this meeting, because of 37 the oil situation, but there's no reason, however, why we 38 couldn't add it on as an extra day or so at any future council 39 meeting and cover it even after the first of the year. 40 41 The fact that we had additional funds that we may or may not be 42 able to carry over and would be available to us affords a 43 separate workshop. However, there's no reason why we couldn't 44 just add an extra day or so and cover it at part of a regular 45 attendance meeting. That urgency might not be there. 46 47 MR. RIECHERS: When people say let's get on with it and let's 48 make a decision here, understand that the Fisheries Forum is 144 1 basically going to create a facilitated -- What I believe 2 they're probably planning on doing is to create a facilitated 3 discussion regarding that and I assume it will be fleshing out 4 pros and cons and possible solutions to certain issues that may 5 arise out of that. That's typically how those kinds of things 6 work. 7 8 Now, Dr. Bortone had said the seventeen of us would be invited 9 and I'm not certain who else the other participants would be if 10 we used the Fisheries Forum as the venue for that. Certainly if 11 we use a big block of time here at the council to have a 12 discussion, we know that the participants are going to be these 13 people around the table and most of the people we typically see 14 and whoever else chooses to come because that issue is on a 15 docket, if you will. 16 17 I think we've really got to -- If I knew more of what we were 18 approving here and who were the attendees, I would be a lot more 19 comfortable. I'm probably going to stick with the original 20 motion, because it gives us some time to figure those things 21 out. I'm not certain a November motion gives us that time, 22 frankly. 23 24 MR. GILL: We've had a good discussion and let's bring this one 25 to a vote. The amendment is to be held in November or December 26 of 2010. All those in favor of the amendment say aye; all 27 opposed like sign. Let's do it by a hand vote. All those in 28 favor raise your left hand, nine; all those opposed raise your 29 left hand. The motion carries. That takes us back to the 30 amended motion. 31 32 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Let me add that we do not have 33 staff available to run this meeting ourselves in November and 34 December and so we will have to seek outside help and we had 35 suggested the Fisheries Forum because they had offered their 36 time, but staff does not have time to put this together, given 37 all the other issues before us. 38 39 MR. GILL: Before we get into discussion, we're back to the 40 amended motion and the amended motion is that a workshop be held 41 in November or December to address sector separation issues. 42 Discussion on the amended motion? 43 44 MR. FISCHER: If staff isn't available, haven't we used Walter 45 Keithly to facilitate some meetings comparable to this? He may 46 be available. There's lots of other people available, but I'll 47 support this motion. 48 145 1 MR. GILL: Further discussion on the amended motion? 2 3 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't understand how our staff is not available 4 either in November or December, when we're not having any 5 council meetings. 6 7 MR. GILL: Dr. Bortone, to that? 8 9 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Obviously most staff take vacation 10 at Christmas and they've already asked for that and had it, in 11 some cases, approved. The other is, and you've seen it at this 12 meeting, there's been lots of work heaped on that staff during 13 this time and all the work that's already suggested plus 14 additional work is on that table. 15 16 You could say yes, we could physically do it, but it wouldn't be 17 as good a conference if we didn't have some help and you're 18 right that we could ask Walter or other individuals. I was just 19 bringing up the issue that the Fisheries Forum people were 20 willing and able and had experience at doing this. If we do 21 hold it before the first of the year, we would be budgeted to be 22 able to hire additional help, should we need it, to host a 23 conference. 24 25 MR. GILL: Further discussion on the motion? 26 27 MR. PERRET: Dr. Bortone, you didn't make any points with me 28 when you said vacation time. Listen, I've had to cut all 29 vacation for all employees when issues come up and so to me, 30 that's not a very valid reason. 31 32 If this is important enough that this council needs the 33 information, then staff needs to be directed to do what we need 34 to do. Now, I'm not opposed to having not a pro-bono anymore, 35 but Dr. Keithly or the appropriate person facilitate or 36 something like that. No reflection on the good work the staff 37 does, but I think if we need to have the meeting and if it's 38 that important, then we all should have to do whatever sacrifice 39 we have to do to make it happen. 40 41 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Of course, Corky. If it's an 42 emergency, we'll do it, but the point is when we looked at our 43 scheduling, as you know, about the week before Christmas until 44 the week after Christmas or New Year, it's almost impossible to 45 get four people in the world together in the United States for a 46 meeting. It's just really difficult schedule-wise. 47 48 MR. GILL: We're going to vote this one up or down. The motion, 146 1 as amended, is that a workshop be held in November or December 2 to address sector separation. All those in favor raise your 3 left hand. The motion carries. Robin, back to you, sir. 4 5 MR. RIECHERS: Everyone might turn to G-3, because that's where 6 we're going, into the Options Paper for the Generic ACL/AM 7 Amendment. Actually, I take that back. We're going to the Red 8 Drum Working Group, but it is in the context of the ACL/AM. 9 10 Karen Burns reviewed the summary of the Red Drum Working Group, 11 which met via webinar on July 13, 2010. The group recommended a 12 red drum ABC in state waters of seventeen-million pounds, based 13 on the sum of the highest annual catches from each state over 14 the last five years. 15 16 The group also recommended that an additional 20,000 red drum be 17 allowed to be taken from federal waters for a scientific study. 18 This study should include age composition in offshore waters and 19 studies on mercury concentration in various age and size groups 20 of red drum. 21 22 Bill Teehan asked if there were other studies on red drum 23 inshore and offshore mercury levels. Dr. Burns said she was 24 unaware of other current studies available. Dr. Ponwith noted 25 that once mercury bioaccumulation occurred in fish tissue, it 26 remains in the tissues. 27 28 Mr. Sapp concurred that the 20,000 red drum that are proposed to 29 be harvested for scientific purposes could also be used in 30 mercury level and genetic composition studies. It was also 31 indicated that other agencies, such as the FDA, may participate 32 in the mercury studies. 33 34 Corky Perret asked if the SSC had discussed the primary and 35 secondary red drum harvest zones that were established in the 36 red drum FMP. Mr. Atran responded that the SSC had not 37 discussed those zones. In response to a request from Mr. 38 Perret, staff has attached a description of the red drum primary 39 and secondary areas that was in Red Drum Amendment 1 in 1987. 40 Let's pause right there on red drum, just to see if there's any 41 issues. It also comes up later in this document, under Action 42 7.1, when we talk about red drum ACL. 43 44 MS. WILLIAMS: Robin, are you referencing the motion on the 45 board? 46 47 MR. RIECHERS: No, the motion on the board is -- I haven't got 48 there yet. Steven Atran reviewed a report of the Species 147 1 Grouping/ABC Working Group, which reviewed catch histories of 2 stocks to select a period of relatively stable years to use for 3 setting ABC using data-poor methods. 4 5 Steven Atran also reviewed the summary of the July 27, 2010 6 Standing and Special Reef Fish SSC meeting. The SSC reviewed 7 revisions to the ABC Control Rule made by staff in response to 8 council instructions and reviewed the revised rule with 9 editorial revisions. 10 11 The SSC also recommended ABC for red drum based on the Red Drum 12 Working Group report, which we just talked about. The SSC added 13 a new tier to the ABC Control Rule for data-poor stocks with 14 small but stable landings that were not expected to be in danger 15 of undergoing overfishing. 16 17 This new tier would recommend an annual catch target at the mean 18 of the landings and would set ABC and OFL at one and two 19 standard deviations above the mean, respectively, to allow 20 fluctuations in landings. 21 22 The SSC recommended OFL and ABC for several of the stocks and 23 stock groupings in the Generic ACL amendment, which are listed 24 in the Attachment 3 table to the SSC report. However, the SSC 25 did not have a quorum during the last day of the meeting and 26 will have to review the recommendations at its next meeting. 27 28 The SSC also made some changes to the species groupings which 29 Regional Office staff apparently have some disagreement with. 30 Specifically, these included removing lane snapper from the 31 Vermilion/silk/blackfin snapper group, designating scamp as the 32 indicator species for the shallow-water grouper group, and 33 grouping queen snapper and wenchman together. Kay Williams 34 added that for some of the groups the stocks that were listed 35 together were not necessarily caught together. 36 37 38 Steven Atran noted that the council had asked staff to convene a 39 meeting of an ACL/ACT Control Rule Working Group, but had not 40 formally created such a group. He referred to the list of 41 participants in Tab G, Number 6(a), and recommended that those 42 individuals form the group. Those are, in fact, Steven Atran, 43 Shannon Calay, Tracy Dunn, Claudia Friess, Chad Hanson, Mike 44 Jepson, Julie Morris, Carrie Simmons, Andy Strelcheck, and 45 Elbert Whorton. By unanimous voice vote, the committee 46 recommends, and I so move, approval of the formation of the Ad 47 Hoc ACL/ACT Control Rule Workgroup as defined in Tab G, Number 48 6(a). 148 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 3 discussion? 4 5 MS. WILLIAMS: I would speak in opposition to the motion for 6 several reasons. If you're going to have an AP put together, we 7 normally announce it so that individuals can send in their 8 names. It's in our SOPPs that that's how we handle those types 9 of things and we have not done that. 10 11 I also do not feel that we need someone to tell the council 12 members or set a control rule for the council members to follow 13 to set an ACL/ACT when it is the council members' jobs to do 14 that once they've seen all of the information from our 15 assessments, as well as listening to public testimony. In 16 saying that, I'm going to speak in opposition to the motion on 17 the board. I feel it's strictly out of order. 18 19 MR. GILL: Given Kay's remarks, I'll expand mine. My real 20 intent was to point out that Julie Morris should be listed as an 21 ex-council member since, unfortunately, she is no longer on the 22 council. Relative to Kay's comments, this is not an AP. This 23 is a workgroup of highly qualified individuals to help devise a 24 rule that we have to consider and we don't have to accept, but 25 do the legwork and the hard work to figure out what they would 26 recommend as a rule, which we have the pleasure of accepting or 27 rejecting. 28 29 They are not doing our work for us. They are assisting us in 30 doing our work and so I think Kay's criticisms are not 31 appropriate relative to what the intent of this workgroup is. 32 33 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I probably will support the motion, but I'm a 34 little concerned about the makeup of the working group. I don't 35 think it's as balanced as it could be. Nevertheless, I think I 36 will go ahead and support it. 37 38 MS. WILLIAMS: I had asked Shep about the makeup of this 39 particular panel and he said that this panel, in his view, I 40 believe, appeared to be an AP. Am I incorrect, Shep? Please 41 correct me if I'm wrong. 42 43 MR. GRIMES: We discussed this at the committee level and I just 44 said the statute gives you the ability to create committees, 45 panels, and the SSC and it's always my preference that you use 46 the language in the Act and don't purport to create something 47 that the Act doesn't give you the authority to create. 48 149 1 Thus, I would call it an advisory panel. Ultimately, that's 2 what I would argue it is no matter what. It's going to provide 3 advice to you and the decision is yours. I'm sorry if that's 4 overly formalistic, but I think it's the safer course of action. 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you and in saying that, we have not 7 followed what we normally do when we set up our advisory panels 8 and so that's why I feel this is out of order. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: It's not totally clear that Shep's response was 11 totally clear. Is there any further discussion on this? We do 12 have a motion on the table, on the board. If there's no further 13 discussion, let's go ahead and vote it up or down. All those in 14 favor signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion passes. Go 15 ahead, Mr. Riechers. 16 17 MR. SAPP: If I may, I think I missed my opportunity when you 18 offered a pause for me to consider something that relates to red 19 drum and reopening it in the EEZ. If I may, I would like to ask 20 Shep, who is prepared to give a response to a legal issue 21 concerning red drum. With your permission, I'll make the 22 request. 23 24 MR. RIECHERS: I'm in committee here and so that's up to the 25 chair. You have another option. It is under Action 7 as well. 26 We have further discussion of that item on the next page of your 27 summary, but now is fine, assuming Dr. Shipp allows it. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Yes, go ahead, Ed. 30 31 MR. SAPP: Thank you, Mr. Chair and Mr. Riechers. Shep, the 32 issue is we're examining reopening recreational harvest of red 33 drum in the EEZ and we've got an existing Executive Order that, 34 in effect, makes it a game fish. We've got a potential legal 35 conflict there, I would assume, and we've had some preliminary 36 discussion, but I don't think we've ever had clarification as it 37 relates to two different things. 38 39 One would be recreational harvest and the second would be 40 harvest under an exempted fishing permit, if we allowed that to 41 happen. If you can, clarify that for us from a legal 42 standpoint. 43 44 MR. GRIMES: I'll try. We've discussed this a little bit 45 before. The Executive Order does not prohibit or would not 46 present a problem for recreational harvest and as far as the EFP 47 goes, it's going to depend on the nature of the EFP, I suppose. 48 150 1 I think to back up a little bit, we'll go over what we discussed 2 before. The Executive Order is not, strictly speaking, law. It 3 is a command from the head of the Executive Branch of the 4 government to the rest of the Executive Branch of the government 5 that this is how you're going to conduct business. 6 7 In this case, the Executive Order does talk about other 8 applicable laws and it remains to be seen how all that would be 9 hammered out. That being said, it was an Executive Order handed 10 down by the last administration and how the current 11 administration is going to pursue that is not something I have 12 been briefed on or have much insight into. 13 14 To get back to the EFP issue, if someone applied for an exempted 15 fishing permit that involved eventual sale of the red drum that 16 were harvested in the EEZ, then I would be of the opinion that 17 that would constitute commercial harvest and would not be 18 consistent with what's in the Executive Order and that's really 19 as far as I can go with it at this point. 20 21 MR. SAPP: Thank you, Shep. 22 23 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Anything further, Ed? Go ahead, Robin. 24 25 MR. RIECHERS: Now we're going to move into the ACL/AM options 26 paper and the various actions. The actions start on page 14 of 27 G-3. Action 1, Management of Species by Other State or Federal 28 Agencies, the committee discussed the Alternatives in Action 1. 29 30 The alternatives to delegate management, as described in the 31 Magnuson-Stevens Act, to Florida FWC for octocorals, stone crab, 32 Nassau grouper, yellowtail snapper, and mutton snapper were 33 moved to Considered but Rejected in the document, based on 34 concerns by FWC that they would continue to be subject to ACL 35 requirements. 36 37 They were replaced with alternatives to remove those species 38 from the appropriate FMPs, with the understanding that Florida 39 would take over management. Florida FWC sent a letter dated 40 August 13, 2010, stating they were prepared to manage octocorals 41 if the Gulf and South Atlantic Councils removed them from their 42 Coral and Coral Reefs Fishery Management Plan. 43 44 They also stated that they were prepared to manage stone crab 45 species and their hybrids if the Gulf Council repealed the 46 fishery management plan. Florida FWC stated they could fully 47 protect these resources and the interests of fishermen in state 48 and federal waters through appropriate regulations. 151 1 2 The other species indicated in the original letter, i.e., 3 yellowtail snapper, Nassau grouper, and mutton snapper, needed 4 to be analyzed further by the agency before accepting or 5 rejecting management of these species. 6 7 Mr. David Cupka, the liaison from the South Atlantic Council, 8 stated that they also had alternative in their FMP allowing 9 Florida FWC to manage octocorals throughout their range. Mr. 10 Gill brought up the idea of removing some species from the 11 fishery management plan, with the intent of creating a new 12 document with the South Atlantic Council for joint management of 13 these species. Some members thought this might add an 14 additional level of complication, but thought it should be 15 considered. 16 17 By unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 18 move, to add an Alternative 4 to Actions 1.4 and 1.5 to add the 19 respective species to a joint plan with the South Atlantic 20 Fishery Management Council. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. 23 24 MR. TEEHAN: This is to the motion, I think, unless NOAA tells 25 me something different here. My intent is to request a repeal 26 of the Gulf Council Stone Crab Fishery Management Plan and so 27 would I be requesting that that become the preferred option at 28 this motion or make a separate motion or is it handled some 29 other way, Roy? 30 31 DR. CRABTREE: I think to withdraw the plan, you just need to 32 pass a motion with 75 percent of the council, three-quarters, 33 vote concurring, but I believe we later in the report have a 34 motion where we ask the council to prepare the documents and the 35 things that would be needed to do that and so I presume we would 36 pass that motion and then come back at a future meeting when we 37 have the documents and then vote on it. 38 39 MR. RIECHERS: Dr. Crabtree is correct. It's about three more 40 motions down maybe or so. 41 42 MR. TEEHAN: I was working under the ill-advised advice of Mr. 43 Gill on this and so I've learned my lesson. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Shep, did you have a comment? 46 47 MR. GRIMES: I would just point out too that I understand you 48 want to make that motion and we had the discussion in committee. 152 1 I think you would be well advised to wait until you have some 2 sort of NEPA document in front of you so you're more informed as 3 to the consequences of that action before you actually approve 4 it. Thank you. 5 6 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a motion on the floor. 7 8 DR. CRABTREE: Could we just, for the record -- It says "add the 9 respective species" and can we name out what those species are, 10 so it's clear? 11 12 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Yes. They are yellowtail snapper, nassau 13 grouper, and -- 14 15 MR. RIECHERS: You're altering the committee motion and I'm not 16 saying that it's not a good alteration, Dr. Crabtree. 17 18 DR. CRABTREE: I'm trying to figure out what the committee 19 motion is. 20 21 MR. RIECHERS: The committee motion was just to 1.4 and 1.5 and 22 that's yellowtail and mutton. 23 24 DR. CRABTREE: Is there a reason why Nassau wasn't included in 25 this? Does anybody recall? 26 27 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: It is totally closed. Any comment from staff 28 on why Nassau was excluded? 29 30 DR. CARRIE SIMMONS: Mr. Gill made the motion, I believe. I 31 don't know if he has any rationale for why he did not include 32 them. 33 34 DR. CRABTREE: We had a lot of discussion about black grouper 35 and how to divvy all that up and I wonder if there aren't more 36 species than just those two that this ought to be considered in. 37 Perhaps we could just clarify and give staff latitude to look at 38 some of those other species and whether their inclusion in this 39 would be warranted. 40 41 MR. GILL: There are indeed other species and we weren't trying 42 to be inclusive. Two other are gray snapper and black grouper. 43 The problem was that in Action 1 they don't exist and so the 44 reason we had it just yellowtail and whatever the other one was 45 is because that's all we had available in Action 1, but I think 46 Roy is exactly correct. The intent is to address those species 47 that are congregated around the Keys to be considered as a joint 48 plan with the South Atlantic Council. 153 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We can go ahead and act on this motion and then 3 direct staff to come in with additional species at a later date. 4 Any further discussion on this motion? Any objections? Hearing 5 none, the motion passes. 6 7 MR. GILL: To Mr. Teehan's point, the reason I brought that up, 8 and I guess I'm a little bit confused, is there a subsequent 9 motion to that effect, but Action 1.2 does exactly the same 10 thing and that's the action we're in. I'm a little bit confused 11 in terms of the procedural response, because we've got Action 12 1.2 that has no action and the second one is to repeal. 13 14 In a sense -- I don't remember that's the way it was in 15 committee and maybe it was, but in a sense, that obviates the 16 subsequent motion that we've got to deal with and so the 17 appropriate action, as it's currently structured, would be, if 18 that's the way we want to go, is to make Alternative 2 the 19 preferred alternative in Action 1.2 and do I have that 20 incorrectly? 21 22 DR. CRABTREE: I think if we have some sort of NEPA document 23 before us at the next meeting or whenever, I think if you pass 24 the motion with a three-quarters vote, then I think you would 25 take stone crab out of this document completely and then you 26 would just send a letter to the Secretary with the NEPA document 27 and rationale requesting that the plan be withdrawn. 28 29 MR. GILL: I guess my question is why Action 1.2? It's 30 redundant with a subsequent motion, I believe. Am I incorrect? 31 32 MR. RIECHERS: This is the chairman's prerogative, but we're 33 kind of fast-forwarding down to the stone crab discussion, which 34 we had just left. 35 36 MR. GILL: Except that it's Action 1.2 and you're fixing to 37 leave Action 1 and go to Action 2. 38 39 MR. RIECHERS: Actually, we still have at least one more motion 40 on Action 1. 41 42 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Go ahead, please. 43 44 MR. RIECHERS: Next, the committee discussed the low landings 45 and issues with identification of dwarf sand perch and sand 46 perch under Action 1.6, stating that they were not targeted 47 species and that there was enough rationale based on landings 48 and management history that these two species did not need to 154 1 stay within the Reef Fish Fishery Management Plan. By unanimous 2 voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so move, to make 3 Alternative 2 in Action 1.6 the preferred alternative. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 6 Any objections? The motion passes. 7 8 MR. RIECHERS: I'm pausing for a moment, Mr. Gill, if you don't 9 want us to leave stone crabs. 10 11 MR. GILL: My confusion is just that in Action 1 we have a stone 12 crab deal and the only alternative which, other than no action, 13 is to repeal. As you correctly pointed out, there is a motion 14 to direct staff to repeal and so, to me, it's redundant and 15 we're leaving it -- We've got it in an action and we're leaving 16 that action, but we haven't discussed it. 17 18 MR. RIECHERS: The motion actually says staff be directed to 19 prepare the analysis to repeal the Stone Crab FMP and so it's 20 just bringing forward more information that would allow us to 21 make that decision better and, of course, we're still in a 22 document that has a couple of meetings before we would have to 23 pick preferreds and so we have a little time to work this out. 24 25 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Do you need to add to that, Mr. Grimes? 26 27 MR. GRIMES: Not if that squared away Mr. Gill's apparent 28 confusion. 29 30 MR. RIECHERS: We're going to begin then with Action 2, Species 31 Groupings. The SSC had modified a few of the species groupings 32 in the council's preferred alternative. Specifically, they 33 removed lane snapper from the vermilion/lane/silk/blackfin 34 snapper group and designated scamp as an indicator species for 35 the shallow-water grouper. 36 37 Again, we indicate that staff at the regional office expressed 38 concern that these changes did not leave a strong relationship 39 between the remaining stocks in the group, so that scamp might 40 not be a representative indicator species for that group. Kay 41 Williams also felt that some of the species groupings were made 42 of stocks that are not commonly caught together. I'll pause at 43 the end of each action, Mr. Chair, just to see if there's any 44 hands that go up. 45 46 MS. WILLIAMS: I would like a little bit of discussion on how 47 scamp is an indicator species of the shallow-water grouper 48 complex. Can someone give me some information on that? 155 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Steve Atran? 3 4 MR. STEVEN ATRAN: This is one of the issues that the regional 5 office folks have an objection to and Nick Farmer has prepared 6 some additional analysis. What we would like to do is bring him 7 and his analysis to the SSC the next time the SSC meets and ask 8 them to reconsider their recommendations for species groupings. 9 10 MR. RIECHERS: Moving on, Action 3 was the ABC Control Rule, 11 which was previously discussed by the committee. Roy Crabtree 12 stated that the SSC's Tier 3A in the control rule seemed less 13 conservative that Tier 2 and asked that both the control rule 14 table and the discussion clarify and discuss this. 15 16 Moving on, Action 4 was the ACL/ACT Control Rule, but work had 17 been suspended on that issue until the Ad Hoc ACL/ACT Control 18 Rule Working Group was formed and we just did that. 19 20 For Action 5, Sector Allocations, Assane Diagne noted that 21 analyses request had been forwarded to the Science Center to 22 allow the alternatives to be better fleshed out. 23 24 MS. WILLIAMS: I have a question. Assane -- He's not here. 25 Where it says the analyses requests had been forwarded to the 26 Science Center to allow them to be better fleshed out, which 27 ones and why? I guess if he's not here that we can't get an 28 answer to that and so okay. 29 30 MR. RIECHERS: For Action 6, Generic Framework Procedure, staff 31 was asked to add a table that identified the actions that could 32 be authorized under each of the alternatives. 33 34 Action 7 covered the specification of annual catch limits. For 35 Action 7.1, Red Drum ACL, a motion was made to support 36 Alternative 2 as the preferred alternative, which established 37 both the state water ACL of seventeen-million pounds and the 38 federal allowance of 20,000 fish for scientific harvest. 39 40 It was suggested that the council did not need to specify an ACL 41 for the portion of red drum catch that occurs only in state 42 waters and that the 20,000 fish ACL in federal waters was only 43 needed if the fish were going to be taken by fishermen instead 44 of or in addition to scientists taking the fish. 45 46 A substitute motion to set an experimental catch of red drum in 47 federal waters up to 20,000 fish split between a two-year study 48 period failed. The committee then returned to the original 156 1 motion. By a voice vote with one nay, the committee recommends, 2 and I so move, that Alternative 2 in Action 7.1 be the preferred 3 alternative. 4 5 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 6 Any objections? 7 8 MR. RIECHERS: Let me ask a question of Dr. Crabtree. Dr. 9 Crabtree, we were trying to deal with this motion in committee 10 and I think you had a suggestion on the way that you thought we 11 could do that. 12 13 DR. CRABTREE: I believe that -- We have the okay from the SSC 14 to have some sort of research harvest, but we don't have a 15 program set up to do that yet. Where that really leaves us is 16 we're going to leave the ACL at zero in the EEZ for now. 17 18 I think for red drum, octocorals, Nassau grouper, and goliath 19 grouper, at least the ones I think of right now, I don't think 20 we need any action on those in this document. Those fisheries 21 are closed, in the case of red drum, Nassau, and goliath, and 22 for octocorals, we current have a quota of 50,000 colonies. 23 24 Unless we want to change any of that, I think we can simply 25 explain in the document that the ACLs for red drum, Nassau, and 26 goliath in the EEZ are zero and the ACL for gorgonian is 50,000 27 and that we don't intend to make a change for now and so no 28 action is required. 29 30 The guidelines explicitly have a statement in them that 31 addresses the issue that many councils may already have catch 32 limits in place that meet the requirements of the guidelines and 33 so no action may be required and says that instead the council 34 can just explain in the Federal Register why its terminology and 35 approaches are consistent with the guidelines. I think that's 36 the case for these groups, unless somebody wants to change 37 something. 38 39 Then I think we can go about figuring out what sort of program 40 we're going to do for red drum and what sort of research and how 41 we're going to pay for it and how the states are going to 42 participate and all of that and then when we have that ready to 43 roll, we can come back in and make whatever modification we need 44 through an exempted fishing permit or whatever is appropriate 45 and then put that in place. 46 47 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Roy, so you're recommending no action rather 48 than -- 157 1 2 DR. CRABTREE: I think the guidelines clearly allow us to, if we 3 have things we believe already meet the intent of the guidelines 4 and it seems to me clearly when the fishery is closed in the EEZ 5 -- The ACL for red drum is zero and Nassau is zero and goliath 6 is zero, unless you want to change the 50,000 octocoral quota 7 that we have, I think you could explain that the quota is the 8 annual catch limit. I think we can do that. 9 10 MR. GRIMES: That's fine, just so long as we're clear that what 11 you're talking about is the portion of the stock that's in the 12 EEZ, which is different than this, which looks at it stock-wide. 13 14 DR. CRABTREE: There is language in the guidelines about ACLs 15 generally should include state and federal harvest and that's 16 true and that's what we've done with red snapper and we have 17 harvest on grouper and all of those. Those ACLs reflect state 18 and federal water harvest, but in this instance, I don't think 19 that makes sense. 20 21 The way things are now, this is strictly a state water fishery. 22 The EEZ is closed and we don't have any jurisdiction over those 23 waters and so I think in this case we're fine with implementing 24 an ACL of zero for the EEZ for red drum and acknowledging there 25 is a healthy fishery going on in state waters. 26 27 With Nassau and goliath, state waters are closed too and so you 28 could say that's the overall ACL. It makes perfect sense to me 29 and I think it saves us some work in the document, but it's up 30 to you as to whether you want to stay where you are or make 31 changes to it. 32 33 MR. PERRET: Roy, you mentioned goliath and it seems to me -- 34 Did we not initiate a research program that I think Teehan's 35 agency -- 36 37 DR. CRABTREE: No, we never did that, Corky, but we do have a 38 goliath grouper assessment that is in progress now and I suppose 39 you could leave that in as a placeholder. I don't know when we 40 expect the outcome of that assessment. 41 42 MR. PERRET: Does that allow the take of fish, of goliath 43 grouper? 44 45 DR. CRABTREE: That would depend on the outcome of the 46 assessment and I have no idea where that is or where that's 47 heading. 48 158 1 MR. PERRET: If we've got some experience and that process is 2 working, I don't know why we could not use a similar process 3 with red drum or any other fishery that we may want to do 4 something with for research purposes. 5 6 DR. CRABTREE: We've talked about a research fishery on goliath, 7 but we've never done anything, to the best of my knowledge. I 8 know we never have in the EEZ. 9 10 MR. TEEHAN: That's correct, Roy. There was a research program 11 that we had talked about here at some point that had 800 fish in 12 it recommended for a lethal take and that was reduced to 400 and 13 then it was determined by the scientists that that would not be 14 enough to fill the data gaps that we have. 15 16 The model that's being done now is a catch free model and it's 17 being done based on surveys and so forth and the first two SEDAR 18 workshops have been done. There's one left and I believe it's 19 in November and I believe we're scheduled to look at the results 20 of the stock assessment in February, if I'm not mistaken. 21 22 MR. RIECHERS: I'm going to try to make the motion that Roy just 23 alluded to and help me, Roy, because I may not get it correct 24 exactly. I move that we ask staff to include in the document a 25 discussion of red drum, Nassau, goliath, and octocorals, have a 26 discussion about the current setting of ACLs in the EEZ in lieu 27 of any actions that we currently have in the document. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is this a substitute motion? 30 31 MR. RIECHERS: Yes, a substitute motion. Is that basically what 32 you're suggesting, Roy? 33 34 DR. CRABTREE: Nassau grouper as well, I think. I would say a 35 discussion of the current catch limits. 36 37 MR. RIECHERS: Yes, I had that in there, but it just didn't get 38 in there. ACLs is what I put, in the EEZ. 39 40 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We need a second. We have a second. Any 41 discussion of the substitute motion? 42 43 MR. GILL: I'm not unhappy with that, but I would point out the 44 same thing I pointed out in committee. I think we need to 45 recognize that that is not totally in agreement with what the 46 guidelines suggest, because the guidelines suggest that for 47 these stock or stock complexes that have harvest in state or 48 territorial waters that the FMPs and amendments should include 159 1 an ACL for the overall stock and it may be further divided. 2 This doesn't do that and so I don't have a problem with it, but 3 it doesn't comply with that portion. 4 5 DR. CRABTREE: Hang on. For goliath and Nassau it does, because 6 the ACL would be zero and that would be the overall ACL, because 7 it's closed everywhere. In the case of red drum, you're 8 correct, but I think the guidelines say should. We are doing 9 that in most cases, but I think in the case of red drum, that's 10 clearly just not a workable arrangement. I think in that case 11 we're okay. 12 13 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Further discussion on this motion? Any 14 objections to the motion? Hearing none, the motion passes. Mr. 15 Riechers, could you give us a projection on how long you think 16 it will before you finish your report? 17 18 MR. RIECHERS: There's one more motion and so it will be fairly 19 quick. In fact, the next discussion regarding octocorals has 20 now been basically also usurped by that motion and so I will go 21 down to Action 7.3 and now we're dealing with stone crabs and 22 so, Mr. Gill, get ready. 23 24 ACL for stone crabs, Bob Gill felt that the SSC had used a more 25 conservative control rule than the Tier 3A rule used for many 26 stocks and suggested that this ABC recommendation be returned to 27 the SSC for additional evaluation. However, the motion died for 28 lack of a second. 29 30 It was noted that Florida FWC sent a letter to the council 31 offering to manage stone crab species in state and federal 32 waters. Roy Crabtree stated that repeal of the Stone Crab FMP, 33 which would require a 70 percent approval of council members 34 present to vote. This would require a separate action and NEPA 35 documentation. 36 37 By unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 38 move, that staff be directed to prepare the analysis to repeal 39 the Stone Crab FMP. 40 41 MR. GILL: Did not Dr. Crabtree say that 75 percent is required 42 and not 70 percent? 43 44 DR. CRABTREE: Yes, it's a three-quarter vote, according to the 45 Act. 46 47 MR. RIECHERS: We'll make that correction in the minutes. 48 160 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion? 2 3 MR. GILL: Again, I'm not sure -- I see this motion as redundant 4 with Action 1.2 and so if we want to be redundant, that's fine, 5 but I'm going to, for the record, abstain. 6 7 DR. CRABTREE: Technically, it is not redundant, because this 8 merely asks staff to prepare the analysis. The other 9 alternative would actually establish a preferred that we're 10 going to do it. Here, we aren't deciding we're going to do it. 11 We're asking staff to prepare an analysis for us and so I don't 12 think they are the same. 13 14 MR. ATRAN: My understanding was that this analysis was for the 15 possible purposes of pulling this action out of this amendment 16 and doing it with a separate action. One of the questions I 17 would have is if the ACL Amendment includes a preferred 18 alternative to repeal the Stone Crab FMP, since that requires a 19 75 percent vote by the council, is the entire ACL Amendment 20 going to require a 75 percent vote if it's left in here? 21 22 MR. GRIMES: We have a little bit of an odd procedural 23 situation, but we have alternatives in this amendment to deal 24 with stone crabs. We don't know which way you're going to go 25 with stone crabs, but there seems to be a strong indication that 26 the council would prefer repealing the FMP. 27 28 My advice is before you just dive in and make that decision that 29 you have some analysis in front of you to inform your decision 30 on that and so that's why you made the last motion. We'll have 31 staff go back and prepare something for you. 32 33 It probably won't take that much time and hopefully you can come 34 back at the next meeting and you can see it and then you can 35 make an informed decision and if that decision is to repeal the 36 Stone Crab FMP, then my suggestion would be that you remove 37 anything and everything that deals with stone crab from the ACL 38 Amendment and submit your request to the Secretary, along with 39 your associated analysis and rationale to repeal the Stone Crab 40 FMP, and that will proceed entirely separate from your ACL 41 Amendment. 42 43 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Given that, are we ready to vote? We have a 44 committee motion. Any further discussion of this one? Any 45 objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 46 47 MR. RIECHERS: The next action is Action 7.4 and it was ACLs for 48 royal red shrimp and the committee had no comments. 161 1 2 DR. MCILWAIN: I would like to offer a motion and that is that 3 the preferred alternative for Action 7.4 be Alternative 2, 4 Option a. If I get a second, I'll give you some rationale. 5 6 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a second. 7 8 DR. MCILWAIN: That's basically to set an OFL at 392,000 pounds 9 and the ABC at 334,000 pounds of royal red shrimp. This was the 10 recommendation of the SSC to the council. It's not believed 11 that this fishery is overfished or undergoing overfishing. It's 12 a deepwater fishery. The ABC was based on the highest catch 13 made, which was made in 1994. 14 15 It is unlikely that the commercial royal red fishery will exceed 16 this annual catch limit, based on the last ten years of 17 landings, limited participation in the fishery, and the depth 18 and location of the fishery. It's a very difficult fishery to 19 prosecute and people just don't jump into it overnight. That 20 would be my recommendation. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We still don't have the motion on the board. 23 24 DR. MCILWAIN: It would be Alternative 2a. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion on the motion? All in 27 favor of the motion signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion 28 passes. 29 30 MR. RIECHERS: The next action is Action 7.5, dealing with live 31 rock. Roy Crabtree suggested that the ACL for wild live rock 32 was already set to zero by the prohibition on harvest. Shepherd 33 Grimes felt that aquacultured live rock did not need an ACL 34 because the organisms that settle on the base rock are not 35 managed by the council. It was suggested that staff rewrite 36 this section to indicate that the ABC for wild live rock is zero 37 and aquacultured live rock does not need an ACL. 38 39 By a unanimous voice vote, the committee recommends, and I so 40 move, that for Action 7.5, replace the alternatives with 41 discussion that there is an ACL of zero for wild live rock and 42 add a discussion explaining that there is no need for an ACL for 43 aquacultured live rock. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. 46 47 MR. GRIMES: I think, just to clarify, for one, this was Dr. 48 Crabtree's line of reasoning and I just went along with it. The 162 1 other thing is this is exactly what we did -- We're just doing 2 it separately, but this is basically what we did for those other 3 species earlier on. I just wanted to point that out. 4 5 DR. CRABTREE: For the record, if I could just pin Shep down, 6 but, Shep, you agree that this is acceptable? 7 8 MR. GRIMES: Yes. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: After that clarification, let's go ahead and 11 vote on this. Any objections to this motion? Hearing none, the 12 motion passes. 13 14 MR. RIECHERS: I would just add that Mr. Teehan and Mr. Grimes 15 need to watch who they follow. 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Well noted. 18 19 MR. RIECHERS: Action 7.6 will contain the master list of ACLs 20 and associated reference points. It was suggested that sector 21 ACLs be included for stocks that are allocated. In addition, if 22 sector separation is established in this amendment, each of the 23 resulting sectors will have its own allocation. 24 25 Acton 8 is Accountability Measures and that section is currently 26 being revised and will be presented at the next council meeting. 27 Action 9 is a new section for performance standards and review. 28 Alternative 2 calls for a review of ACLs and accountability 29 measures for any fishery where the ACL has been exceeded twice 30 in a four-year period, as suggested in the National Standard 1 31 Guidelines. 32 33 Alternative 3 calls for a periodic review of all of the OFLs and 34 ABCs for data-poor stocks or for assessed stocks that have not 35 had an assessment in a long time and none have been scheduled. 36 The intent is to make sure that none of the stocks that have had 37 OFL, ABC, and ACL assigned go indefinitely without a review to 38 see if those catch levels should be revised. One council member 39 questioned the need for this if accountability measures are in 40 place. 41 42 The next section, Mr. Chair, deals with several items there were 43 associated with an Ecosystem SSC report. There were no motions 44 that came out of that. There was discussion about a workshop 45 and so forth, but since we had no motions, I won't belabor those 46 points any further at this point and so that concludes my 47 report. 48 163 1 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Riechers. I think it's an 2 appropriate time to take a break, but I want to make sure that 3 we're not going to -- I don't want to reflect on this council, 4 but in past years, occasionally in the late afternoon we start 5 to lose a quorum and I want to be assured that we don't have a 6 whole bunch of people planning to leave at 2:30. Let's take a 7 fifty-three-minute break and reconvene at one o'clock. 8 9 (Whereupon, the meeting recessed at 12:07 p.m., August 20, 10 2010.) 11 12 - - - 13 14 August 20, 2010 15 16 FRIDAY AFTERNOON SESSION 17 18 - - - 19 20 The Full Council of the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management 21 Council reconvened in the Grand Ballroom of the Crowne Plaza, 22 Pensacola, Florida, Friday afternoon, August 20, 2010, and was 23 called to order at 1:00 p.m. by Chairman Bob Shipp. 24 25 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I believe Habitat is next. Mr. Hendrix, are 26 you ready? 27 28 HABITAT PROTECTION COMMITTEE REPORT 29 30 MR. HENDRIX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Habitat Protection 31 Committee met on Thursday morning and discussed the five-year 32 review of the council's Essential Fish Habitat Amendment. The 33 HPC reviewed the first draft of the five-year report. 34 35 Mr. Jeff Rester went through the document, detailing each 36 section. He stated that information on larval species 37 distributions from SEAMAP data was the largest contribution of 38 new information on defining EFH. 39 40 The document authors were looking for guidance on whether the 41 council felt that the EFH Amendment should be updated in a new 42 EFH Amendment. The larval distribution maps would be a large 43 increase in EFH information, but completing a new EFH Amendment 44 may not be warranted at this time, due to other new initiatives 45 such as ecosystem management. 46 47 Another area where the authors were looking for guidance was on 48 proposed habitat areas of particular concern. Five new banks 164 1 off Louisiana were proposed as HAPCs from recommendations from 2 the Flower Gardens Bank National Marine Sanctuary staff. The 3 Pinnacle Trend area off Alabama and Mississippi was also 4 proposed as a HAPC. Mr. Rester stated that the report would be 5 revised and reviewed and that the council would need to take 6 final action on it at the October council meeting. 7 8 Next, Mr. Rester reviewed changes to the council's Habitat 9 Policy and Procedures document. He stated that the document had 10 not been updated since 2002 and a few sections were out of date. 11 He revised the document to reflect these updates, along with 12 deleting the Mariculture Policy section, since the council now 13 has an Aquaculture FMP. 14 15 Along those lines, the committee neglected in making a motion to 16 approve the new updates and changes to the policy and at this 17 time, I would like to make a motion to approve the council's 18 Habitat Policy and Procedures Document as revised in Tab J, 19 Number 4. 20 21 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second? 22 23 MR. PERRET: Second. Joe, that would allow Jeff and the staff 24 to make editorial -- 25 26 MR. HENDRIX: Editorial license to go ahead and make changes and 27 include the revisions that have already been made and prepare it 28 for approval by the council at the October meeting. 29 30 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion of the motion on the 31 board? Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 32 33 MR. HENDRIX: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and this concludes my 34 report. 35 36 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Hendrix. Back to Mr. Gill and 37 Outreach and Education. 38 39 OUTREACH AND EDUCATION COMMITTEE REPORT 40 41 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Five members of the 42 Outreach and Education Committee convened on August 18. I 43 called the committee to order and the agenda was approved as 44 written and the minutes of the August 3-4, 2010 meeting were 45 approved with one minor edit. 46 47 Ms. Ponce gave a summary report of the Outreach and Education 48 Advisory Panel meeting, which was Tab H Number 3, and the 165 1 resulting draft five-year strategic communications plan, Tab H 2 Number 4, and its stated goals. 3 4 The advisory panel, led by facilitator Nancy Perret, discussed 5 and developed a draft plan, including one-year, three-year, and 6 five-year goals, and agreed that staff would begin developing 7 strategies and tactics for panel review as they move forward 8 with an action plan. 9 10 The committee recommends, and I so move, to approve the draft of 11 the five-year strategic plan for the Outreach and Education 12 Advisory Panel. 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 15 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 16 17 MR. GILL: The committee recommends, and I so move, to convene 18 the Outreach and Education Advisory Panel prior to the October 19 council meeting to review the draft strategic plan, develop an 20 action plan, and assign work groups. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion on the board. 23 Discussion? Objection? Hearing none, the motion passes. 24 25 MR. GILL: Mr. Simpson suggested that state regulations be 26 included with the federal regulations smart-phone application 27 that will be developed. Dr. Bortone noted that an application 28 for federal regulations would be developed first and then state 29 regulations could be added later. Mr. Chairman, this concludes 30 my report. 31 32 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Gill. Any further discussion of 33 the Outreach and Education Report? Hearing none, the next item 34 is the Budget Committee meeting and we really didn't have a 35 meeting, but, Dr. McIlwain, I think you wanted to make some 36 comments. 37 38 DISCUSSION OF BUDGET/PERSONNEL COMMITTEE 39 40 DR. MCILWAIN: I just wanted to comment that we did not meet. 41 We do have in our briefing book a quarterly report. This is 42 what we had asked for in an earlier meeting, that we have 43 quarterly reports posted so that we have the opportunity to 44 review those. This is the second quarterly report. 45 46 We did have a first quarterly report as well and we also note 47 that we'll be moving into reviewing and approving a new budget 48 at the October meeting and we would request that we have 166 1 adequate time on the agenda to fully discuss that action as it 2 comes up. That's all I have to say. 3 4 MS. WILLIAMS: The first quarterly report, there were some 5 questions on that and that's why I had asked to let's wait until 6 Cathy was here, as well as this second one. There is one other 7 item. 8 9 Back when we were looking at the four or five-year budget, I 10 went back through the time series and there is conversation in 11 the minutes where it said that we were going to include I 12 believe it was a social scientist, an outreach, and a NEPA 13 person and that didn't mean that we were actually going to do 14 those, but it was just a placeholder is what the language says, 15 should we decide to hire those three particular positions. 16 17 I would ask that we at least wait until we can go through our 18 budget report at the next meeting before we go out and hire a 19 social scientist, because we actually have not made the motion 20 to hire any extra staff at this time and I would just like us to 21 take a look at the budget and the other things and work that 22 we're going to have to do before we hire anyone else. 23 24 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Let me address that. It was my 25 understanding that when the budget was passed that that was a 26 direction to do that. The schedule called for hiring a social 27 scientist in 2010 and the outreach person in 2011. 28 29 Due to some issues that came up and discussions with Mr. Gill 30 and Mr. Shipp, we decided to temporarily hire the outreach 31 person and then because of some other issues, it became obvious 32 that that would be silly to hire them on a temporary basis and 33 then go back out and hire on a permanent one later and so we 34 moved that up in the schedule, to hire in 2010. 35 36 Then as a result of the oil spill that we had, we realized that 37 the Gulf Council was directly not doing anything with regard to 38 the oil spill for the community of the Gulf other than the 39 standard policies and issues that we come across and so we 40 thought, again in discussion with Mr. Gill and Mr. Shipp, we 41 decided since we had planned to hire in 2011 a social scientist 42 that we would move that up a little bit and see if we couldn't 43 get this person onboard to start helping to work with some of 44 the social science issues that are occurring because of the 45 spill. 46 47 We have, again, with concurrence of Mr. Gill and Mr. Shipp, 48 advertised that position. We currently have fifteen applicants 167 1 and we've got our top group of five. Our budget is sound. We 2 have allowed for it and there wouldn't be any problems of 3 overspending and I think we're right on our spending schedule. 4 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Steve. I appreciate that rationale, 6 but normally the council does look through the budget and the 7 council will make a direct motion and if you were to go back and 8 look at the language, we actually did not do that. It was just 9 we're putting them here as a placeholder. 10 11 I'm not certain what or how you feel that this council is going 12 to respond to the oil spill with hiring a social scientist when 13 -- I do agree that there's a lot of information that we don't 14 have, but even if we brought a social scientist in here 15 tomorrow, the information just is not there for him to come away 16 with anything that we can actually use. 17 18 If you go back and look through all of our fishery management 19 plans, it says we don't have the information and so that's why I 20 felt like that it would be better for us to wait and look at the 21 budget, because if you look at the budget numbers, it shows that 22 we actually have already went above what we said the budget was 23 going to be. 24 25 Now there are carryover monies and that's true, but I'm 26 concerned with the staff that we have now that should funding 27 become level or they may even cut our funding, that it's going 28 to impact the staff that we have now and I want to make sure 29 that that doesn't happen. 30 31 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: You can rest assured that we have 32 allowed for that. As you can see on the budget that we did 33 prepare, we are 61 percent under spent at this particular time 34 and we're more than halfway through the year and so we can cover 35 that. 36 37 With regard to the amount of effort, I agree that it's difficult 38 to hire someone and have some immediate results and to that, I 39 have been in consultation with the National Marine Fisheries 40 Service staff and their social scientists and they have agreed 41 to work with our social scientists so that immediately that 42 social scientist will have access to data and work with them on 43 social science issues, especially with regard to the oil spill. 44 45 MS. WILLIAMS: One quick question. Isn't there some way that we 46 -- In Magnuson, it says that if we need additional help, 47 employees, that we can borrow those from National Marine 48 Fisheries Service. Would it not be cheaper for us to kind of do 168 1 an outsourcing with them, rather than have someone on our 2 payroll continuously? 3 4 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: That was not my decision. I 5 believe that occurred, I think, under the statements from Julie 6 Morris and her impetus that we have the social science person 7 added to the budget in the five-year plan. 8 9 It is possible that we could go outside. We felt, however, that 10 in this particular instance that it might take many months to go 11 through that proposal process. 12 13 I do have a proposal on Roy's desk with regard to another 14 outreach effort and due to the oil issue, I imagine we won't be 15 hearing about that for a little bit, but nevertheless, we have 16 been trying to follow up with additional staff on a temporary 17 basis through grants. 18 19 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I would like to comment that despite what 20 appeared in an earlier draft, we're hiring a social scientist 21 and not a socialist. 22 23 MR. GILL: I apologize for being incomplete on my Outreach and 24 Education Committee Report. I failed to note that the success 25 of the O&E AP was due almost entirely to the pro bono 26 facilitator Nancy Perret and I think we would be remiss if we 27 didn't express our gratitude and appreciation. 28 29 I move that the council send a letter to Ms. Nancy Perret 30 expressing our gratitude and appreciation for her assistance 31 with the O&E AP. 32 33 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Have we got a second? 34 35 DR. MCILWAIN: Second. 36 37 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We've got a second. 38 39 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: That letter has already been sent. 40 41 MR. GILL: I withdraw my motion. Thank you. 42 43 MR. PERRET: I wanted to amend that so that you would send Nancy 44 a nice letter and a check for about $10,000 or $15,000. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think that takes care of O&E and Budget and 47 so we now come to Spiny Lobster/Stone Crab and Mr. Teehan. 48 169 1 SPINY LOBSTER/STONE CRAB COMMITTEE REPORT 2 3 MR. TEEHAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It gives me great 4 pleasure to read the last committee report of the day. The 5 Stone Crab/Spiny Lobster Committee met and it was a full 6 committee of myself, Mr. Simpson, Mr. Gill, Mr. Perret, and Mr. 7 Sapp. 8 9 The agenda was adopted as written and the minutes of the 10 February 1, 2010 meeting were approved with no modifications. 11 Carrie Simmons gave an overview of the Joint Spiny Lobster 12 Amendment 10 Draft Options Paper Document, Tab I, Number 3(a). 13 14 The document was updated with modifications from the joint 15 meeting of the council committees and council advisory panels 16 held in Orlando on June 7, 2010. The purpose of convening the 17 committee was to continue to develop and flesh out the actions 18 and alternatives. The progress from the joint meeting and the 19 actions taken by each council to date was provided in a report, 20 Tab I, Number 3(b). 21 22 Action 1, Other Species in the Spiny Lobster FMP, at the joint 23 meeting, the South Atlantic Committee selected a different 24 preferred alternative than the Gulf Committee. This is a joint 25 amendment and so the committee questioned the process for 26 proceeding if different preferred alternatives were selected. 27 28 To address this issue, the committee recommends, and I so move, 29 to allow the appropriate staff people, as well as legal counsel 30 and committee chairs of the respective councils, to meet and 31 resolve differences in the Draft Joint Spiny Lobster Amendment 32 10. 33 34 MR. GILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have a committee motion 35 and is there any discussion? Any objection? The motion is 36 approved. 37 38 MR. TEEHAN: In addition, staff brought up concerns about the 39 other two species of slipper lobster, ridged and Spanish 40 lobster, meeting the criteria for ecosystem component species, 41 because if caught, they are generally retained for sale or 42 personal use. 43 44 Mr. David Cupka, the liaison from the South Atlantic Council, 45 felt that the differences in preferred alternatives was an issue 46 that could be resolved after further discussion of the 47 alternatives. Is there any further business on Action 1, any 48 motions that anyone wants to take? 170 1 2 If not, we'll go on to Action 2, which is Modify the Current 3 Definitions of Maximum Sustainable Yield, Optimum Yield, 4 Overfishing Threshold, and Overfished Threshold for Caribbean 5 spiny lobster. Staff will continue to develop this action as 6 the stock assessment proceeds. No comments? 7 8 Action 3 is to establish sector allocations for Caribbean spiny 9 lobster in state and federal waters from North Carolina through 10 Texas. Due to Alternative 6 being very close to Alternative 5, 11 but not as highly favored by the Florida FWC's stakeholders, the 12 committee recommends, and I so move, in Action 3, to move 13 Alternative 6 to the considered but rejected section. 14 15 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We've got a committee motion. Any discussion? 16 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 17 18 MR. TEEHAN: The committee was also concerned about allocating 19 by sector or gear percentages that were less than 3 to 4 20 percent. This is not currently a quota and so dividing the 21 spiny lobster fishery into such small allocations would be very 22 difficult to track. After discussion, the committee recommends, 23 and I so move, to delete Option a for Alternatives 2 through 5 24 in Action 3. 25 26 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 27 discussion? Is there objections? The motion passes. 28 29 MR. TEEHAN: The committee recommends, and I so move, that 30 Action 3, Alternative 3 be moved to the considered but rejected 31 section. The rationale for removing this alternative was based 32 on the 1 percent difference between the recreational and 33 commercial allocation currently in Alternative 5. 34 35 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 36 discussion? Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 37 38 MR. TEEHAN: Action 4, Allowable Biological Catch Control Rule, 39 ABC Levels, Annual Catch Limits, and Annual Catch Targets for 40 Caribbean Spiny Lobster, the committee would like to see the 41 Gulf data-poor rule incorporated into the alternatives. 42 43 The committee recommends, and I so move, in Action 4, 44 Alternative 2, that we have two suboptions. Suboption a would 45 be the South Atlantic data-poor ABC Control Rule and Suboption b 46 would be the Gulf Council data-poor ABC Control Rule. 47 48 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 171 1 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 2 3 MR. TEEHAN: Staff stated that Action 4 would probably change 4 quite a bit as the councils continue to develop their 5 representative ABC control rules. At the joint review of the 6 Caribbean spiny lobster update assessment, the Scientific and 7 Statistical Committees would need to come to an agreement on the 8 control rules at that time. 9 10 2.4.2, Set Annual Catch Limits for Caribbean Spiny Lobster, at 11 the joint meeting in June, the councils agreed to move the 12 delegation of management alternatives to considered, but 13 rejected section. 14 15 Due to this action, staff asked if the committee still wanted 16 Alternative 3, to set separate state and federal ACLs based on 17 landings to be analyzed. After discussion, the committee 18 recommends, and I so move, that Alternative 3 in Section 2.4.2 19 be moved to the considered but rejected section. 20 21 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Is there 22 discussion? Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 23 24 MR. TEEHAN: Next, we move on to 2.4.3, which is Set Annual 25 Catch Targets for Caribbean Spiny Lobster. The committee did 26 not make modifications to the current preferred alternative. 27 28 Action 5, Accountability Measures by Sector, the committee 29 discussed the issues with tracking commercial and recreational 30 in-season AMs. The commercial fishery would require a quota 31 monitoring program versus using the current commercial logbook 32 program. 33 34 However, the recreational fishery does not have a monitoring 35 program such as the Marine Recreational Fishing Statistics 36 Survey, commonly known as MRFSS, program. Instead, Florida FWC 37 has a phone and email recreational monitoring program that 38 starts at the beginning of the recreational fishing season and 39 runs through Labor Day. 40 41 However, the committee was concerned about relying on this 42 method to collect recreational lobster data and the additional 43 stresses this might put on Florida FWC. Therefore, the 44 committee recommends, and I so move, that Alternative 2, which 45 is to establish in-season AMs, option b, for the recreational 46 fishery, and option c, for recreational and commercial combined 47 accountability measures, in Action 5 be moved to the considered 48 but rejected section. 172 1 2 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 3 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 4 5 MR. TEEHAN: Action 6, Develop or update a framework procedure 6 and protocol for enhanced cooperative management for spiny 7 lobster, the committee did not make modifications or additions 8 to this action. 9 10 Action 7, Modify regulations regarding possession and handling 11 of short Caribbean spiny lobsters as undersized attractants, 12 the committee spent a great deal of time discussing undersized 13 attractants used in the commercial trap fishery. They asked 14 that Mr. Bill Kelly from the Commercial Lobsterman Association 15 come to the microphone and answer questions about the industry 16 and how it operates. 17 18 The industry uses undersized attractants instead of using food 19 bait because it is more effective for catching legal lobsters 20 versus using cut bait alone. The committee recommends, and I so 21 move, in Action 7 that the preferred alternative be Alternative 22 4. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 25 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 26 27 MR. TEEHAN: Action 8, Modify tailing requirements for Caribbean 28 spiny lobster for vessels that obtain a tailing permit, the 29 committee recommends, and I so move, in Action 8 that the 30 preferred alternatives be Alternative 3, which is to revise the 31 current regulations to clearly state that all vessels must have 32 either a federal spiny lobster permit or a Florida Restricted 33 Species Endorsements associated with a Florida Saltwater License 34 in order to obtain a tailing permit, and Alternative 5, all 35 Caribbean spiny lobster landed must be all whole or all tailed 36 condition. 37 38 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We have a committee motion. Any discussion? 39 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 40 41 MR. TEEHAN: Action 9, Limit spiny lobster fishing in certain 42 areas in the EEZ off Florida to address Endangered Species Act 43 Concerns for Staghorn and Elkhorn coral, the committee asked if 44 there was a great deal of opposition from the industry 45 concerning the areas that would be closed to prohibit lobster 46 trapping in the EEZ or all lobster fishing in the EEZ. 47 48 Mr. Bill Kelly stated there was not much opposition, because 173 1 many commercial fishers had been working with the National 2 Marine Sanctuary and the State of Florida concerning these areas 3 and commercial fishers wanted to avoid setting their traps in 4 areas where there were protected corals. The Gulf committee did 5 not select a preferred alternative on this action. 6 7 Action 10, Require gear markings so all spiny lobster trap lines 8 in the EEZ off Florida are identifiable, the committee felt that 9 this additional burden on the commercial fishery was not 10 necessary, because the buoys and the traps themselves are 11 marked. 12 13 They would like to see an economic analysis with regards to this 14 additional burden on the industry. Also, the committee 15 recommends, and I so move, to delete the phrase "not currently 16 in use in other fisheries" in Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 in Action 17 10. The rationale for deletion of this phrase was due to 18 vagueness and the committee felt it needed to be better defined. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We've got a committee motion. Any discussion? 21 Any objections? Hearing none, the motion passes. 22 23 MR. TEEHAN: The final action, Action 11, Allow the public to 24 remove trap line, buoys, or otherwise make unfishable, any spiny 25 lobster gear found in the EEZ off Florida, the committee felt 26 this action could be very problematic and that caution should be 27 used when allowing members of the public to remove gear and 28 carry it through state waters. 29 30 State of Florida regulations have high penalties for molestation 31 or removal of commercial traps. Instead, the committee 32 suggested creating a specific season to allow members of the 33 public to remove or clean up derelict traps after the fishing 34 season has ended. The committee made the following motion, but 35 it failed because some members felt this was an issue that 36 needed further discussion. The motion was in Action 11 to make 37 Alternative 1 our preferred alternative. 38 39 Dr. Simmons noted that staff would make edits to the amendment 40 and bring the next draft to the committee in February of 2011, 41 after the updated stock assessment. Mr. Shepherd Grimes 42 suggested that an alternative to increase the minimum size 43 limits to 3.5 inches be considered. However, the committee did 44 not make any motions to do so. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my 45 report. 46 47 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Teehan. 48 174 1 MR. GRIMES: I just wanted to clarify that actually what I was 2 said wasn't that we would -- I wasn't recommending any 3 alternative, but we had discussed the possibility of withdrawing 4 this FMP and in light of the import restrictions we have, what I 5 had stated was if the State of Florida had a three-and-a-half- 6 inch size limit, then we could withdraw the FMP and base our 7 import restriction on the three-and-a-half-inch size limit in 8 the Caribbean and then we would have one standard and that was 9 my point. Thank you. 10 11 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Thank you, Mr. Grimes. Any further discussion 12 of any committee reports? If not, we'll move on to Other 13 Business. We have two items on the agenda as well as a couple 14 of other additional items. The first one is the Report from the 15 Southeast Area Monitoring and Assessment Program Meeting and 16 that's SEAMAP and Dr. Leard. 17 18 OTHER BUSINESS 19 REPORT FROM THE SEAMAP MEETING 20 21 DR. RICHARD LEARD: The SEAMAP Committee met in their joint 22 meeting and they have a joint meeting with the Caribbean and the 23 South Atlantic Council in August and typically they have their 24 own individual Gulf meetings in March and October, in 25 conjunction with the Gulf States Marine Fisheries Commission. 26 27 The joint meeting is in two parts. First, each of the separate 28 groups, the Gulf, the South Atlantic, and Caribbean have their 29 own meetings on a half-day and then the next half-day and 30 sometimes into the next day they have a joint session. 31 32 In the Gulf session at this time, Jeff Rester gave an 33 administrative report and he noted that they needed to get their 34 data results in as soon as possible. He went over the 2011 35 budget proposal and noted that the Senate report had just come 36 out at that time, last week, and that the mark was consistent 37 with the President's budget of about $5.14 million for the Gulf. 38 39 Then each of the states, along with National Marine Fisheries 40 Service, just gave basically a brief overview of their 41 activities with regard to the number of cruises that they had 42 made to date. 43 44 Alabama has winter and summer full cruises and they have also 45 just started a longline survey. It's only been going on I think 46 for one year. Kevin can speak more to that if he wants to. 47 48 MR. ANSON: Actually it's a vertical line survey and it just 175 1 started this summer. 2 3 DR. LEARD: It's a vertical longline. It has multiple hooks, 4 but it's a vertical line. 5 6 MR. ANSON: That's correct. 7 8 DR. LEARD: Mississippi had done the usual groundfish surveys in 9 the summer and the fall trawl survey. They also have longline 10 and plankton surveys ongoing. Louisiana also is involved with 11 the trawl surveys and plankton, but right now, or at least up 12 until during the summer period, when they were doing the 13 sampling, they obviously had issues with the oil spill and so 14 they were a little bit behind on that and so is the National 15 Marine Fisheries Service for their summer cruises. 16 17 Really all of their assets have been involved with doing oil 18 work and looking at seafood safety as opposed to the actual work 19 that they have normally done, but they will complete that this 20 summer, according to the persons that reported. 21 22 They now have a five-year budget that starts in 2011 and they'll 23 be looking at establishing a workgroup to evaluate possibly new 24 sampling that might be done. Under the fishery-independent data 25 workshop, and I think it's scheduled for September 22 and 23, 26 there was some discussion about whether or not that would be 27 inconsistent with a workshop that NOAA Fisheries was planning in 28 August and I think, as I understand now, after this meeting, 29 that the NOAA Fisheries workshop has been moved forward and they 30 will be held sort of concurrently, because they're involving 31 some of the same people and the same sorts of things. 32 33 Of course, they discussed the fact that NMFS is getting $10 34 million for additional sampling through NRDA. There weren't any 35 changes actually off of Texas, because there's not been any oil 36 over there. 37 38 As far as strategic planning, a meeting was held in May to 39 coordinate how to utilize the additional fishery-independent 40 funding in the Gulf, but also in the Atlantic and the Caribbean. 41 42 As far as the framework for developing the 2011 SEAMAP 43 management plan, they developed an outline in May and this was 44 sent out to the subcommittee. No comments have been received, 45 but they noted the need to continue working on this strategic 46 plan to actually develop the 2011 to 2015 management plan. 47 48 As far as the joint meeting, this was the usual thing where each 176 1 of the chairs pretty much for the Caribbean, Gulf, and South 2 Atlantic Council gave a report on their activities and what they 3 had been doing over the year. They also looked at budget needs 4 for 2011 and pretty much they came up with the same splits of 5 the money. 6 7 In other words, the 2011 budget is going to be pretty much level 8 with what they got this year and so as far as each of the 9 regions, the Caribbean, the Gulf, the South Atlantic and 10 National Marine Fisheries Service, the percentages of that money 11 are going to be split the same way as they were last year. 12 13 About the only motion that they made was that if any changes to 14 the budget come about, particularly if there are increases, but 15 also if there are decreases, then they would either increase or 16 reduce the individual budgets by the same percentages as which 17 they were allocated. 18 19 They noted as far as the SEAMAP strategic planning that they 20 needed to assess programs in order to develop the new management 21 plan, improve consistency, look at gaps, and develop new 22 strategies. That's pretty much it. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: That's it, Dr. Leard? 25 26 DR. LEARD: Yes. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Does anyone have any questions of Dr. Leard? 29 Hearing none, the next item on the agenda is the Report from the 30 Gulf and South Atlantic Fishery Foundation Trustee Meeting and 31 Dr. Bortone. 32 33 REPORT FROM THE GULF AND SOUTH ATLANTIC FISHERY FOUNDATION 34 TRUSTEE MEETING 35 36 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the 6th 37 of August of this year, I met with several colleagues with the 38 Gulf and South Atlantic Fishery Foundation to present a summary 39 of our works of the past year. It was basically called the Gulf 40 of Mexico Fishery Management Council Update. 41 42 Mr. Schwaab was there and Dr. Crabtree and Corky Perret and Mr. 43 Vendetti also presented some summaries as well, along with Mr. 44 Simpson and some others. It was a great meeting and it's a good 45 opportunity to kind of work with and see our other colleagues in 46 the commercial industry and some others as well. 47 48 There's not much more to say except that you probably should 177 1 have, if you didn't already, pick up a copy of the Gulf and 2 South Atlantic News. I believe there's some or there were some 3 on the back table and if not, you can get it through their 4 website, but the Gulf and South Atlantic has updated their 5 program and it's quite useful. That's all. 6 7 MR. SAPP: I picked up a copy and I was glancing through it and 8 I saw that we had received a presentation from the Gentner group 9 about allocation in the grouper fishery and we had it reviewed 10 by our SEP and it would appear that there was an independent 11 review that was ordered up and it was done by three different 12 economists, I assume, and that that report was presented to the 13 Gulf Council and I wonder if it would be possible to get a copy 14 of that report or to know if it's posted on our website or how I 15 can access that. 16 17 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: I don't have the immediate answer, 18 but we'll get it to everyone. 19 20 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Dr. Bortone, before we move to the final item 21 on the agenda, would you review for us the four additional items 22 under Other Business and what they are? 23 24 DR. BORTONE: The four items are Mr. Gill wanted to speak about 25 mackerel latent permits, Dr. Shipp about council liaison, I 26 would like to speak about the seafood festival, and Ms. Williams 27 about council member needs. 28 29 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We'll start with Mr. Gill. 30 31 DISCUSSION OF MACKEREL LATENT PERMITS 32 33 MR. GILL: We heard yesterday Bill Kelly mention this issue 34 relative to latent permits and he was specifically addressing 35 the mackerel gillnet runaround fishery and I suspect there are 36 latent permits in the generic fishery. 37 38 We have established, in some sense, a LAPP AP to address 39 mackerel and so this is a bit of a side issue to it, but there 40 have been requests besides from Mr. Kelly from folks in the Keys 41 that the latent permit issue in the mackerel fishery be 42 addressed. To that end, I would like to move that we initiate 43 an amendment to the Coastal Migratory Pelagic Plan to address 44 latent permits. 45 46 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second? Okay. Mr. Gill, do you 47 want any more discussion on that? 48 178 1 MR. GILL: Let me get the motion right. As Mr. Kelly addressed, 2 there are I think he mentioned five permits that have had no 3 landings for five years and so there's a question on the effort 4 shift possibility that may upset the balance in a currently well 5 run fishery and it seems prudent to look at that issue and see 6 whether there's appropriate action that we may want to take. 7 Thank you. 8 9 MR. GRIMES: Are we talking about the runaround gillnet or 10 mackerel? 11 12 MR. GILL: I've broadened it, but it's driven by that request 13 relative to the runaround gillnet, correct. 14 15 MR. HENDRIX: Dr. Leard, is the staff working on any sort of 16 review paper on this topic, on latent permits in mackerel? 17 18 DR. LEARD: Right now, we're primarily focusing, as far as 19 coastal pelagics, is on the ACLs and accountability measures 20 amendment, jointly with the South Atlantic. As far as the 21 gillnet fishery that Mr. Kelly spoke to, that's strictly in the 22 Gulf and it's strictly limited to those stat areas and I believe 23 it's 1 and 2 primarily. 24 25 It's not allowed to expand into other areas of the Gulf and it's 26 also under somewhat of a scale-down, for lack of a better word, 27 or a phase-out, because the permits are not transferable. The 28 gillnet permits are not transferable to anybody other than 29 immediate family members, but still, there are those latent 30 permits that Bill spoke to. 31 32 As far as the hook and line fishery for king mackerel, those 33 permits are also under a moratorium, but that's one permit for 34 both the South Atlantic Council and the Gulf. 35 36 In this case, if we address all permits, then we would be 37 looking at a joint amendment with the South Atlantic Council for 38 at least the hook and line portion of that and then, of course, 39 the gillnet portion of that would just be applicable to the 40 Gulf, but it would have to be a joint amendment. Other than 41 that, no, we're not really working on any of that right now. 42 43 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion of this motion? The 44 motion is on the board. All in favor of the motion signify by 45 saying aye; opposed. The motion passes. 46 47 MR. HENDRIX: Is there a meeting of the Mackerel Committee 48 meeting planned for the next meeting, the October meeting, or 179 1 will we have anything ready by then? 2 3 DR. LEARD: We will have a meeting. Primarily we had originally 4 planned or at this time had planned to have something of a 5 revised draft of the ACL/AM Amendment, but we can have something 6 of some options put together for you to consider. This would be 7 something that we would have to go out to scoping on, because I 8 think it would obviously be a plan amendment, but we can have 9 some ideas and something of a scoping document together for you 10 by probably the October meeting as well. 11 12 MR. HENDRIX: That would be the idea, is to convene the Mackerel 13 Committee then. 14 15 DISCUSSION OF LIAISON WITH THE CARIBBEAN FISHERY MANAGEMENT 16 COUNCIL 17 18 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: The next item is mine. At the recent CCC 19 meeting in Alaska, the Caribbean members had discussions with us 20 and there seems to be a desire to establish a liaison with the 21 Caribbean Council similar to what we have with the South 22 Atlantic Council. I spoke to Dr. Crabtree about this and I 23 think he is somewhat favorable. Roy, would you comment on the 24 advisability of establishing such a relationship? 25 26 DR. CRABTREE: I think there would be benefits to it. I don't 27 know that something it's you would want to continue for an 28 extended period, but I think for some people to go down there 29 and see some of the issues facing the Caribbean Council would be 30 a bit of an eye opener. I think it would be also equally good 31 to have some of the Caribbean Council members come up and visit 32 ours. 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: They seemed especially interested and I think 35 it would require a motion and so I would move that -- 36 37 MR. SIMPSON: Do they have a liaison with anybody, Roy? I think 38 the Caribbean Council would probably benefit more than us from 39 coming up here and seeing some of the ways we do things. 40 41 DR. CRABTREE: You may be right about that, Larry. In the years 42 that I've been doing the Caribbean Council, no, there hasn't 43 been a liaison that I can recall. 44 45 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Don't they only meet three times a year? 46 47 DR. CRABTREE: Regularly, but with ACLs, we've been adding an 48 extra meeting in, but normally they meet in December, March, and 180 1 August. 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I would move that the Gulf Council establish a 4 liaison relationship with the Caribbean Council similar to what 5 we have with the South Atlantic and if I can get a second -- 6 7 MR. HENDRIX: I'll second it. 8 9 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further discussion on that? 10 11 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: Could it begin after the first of 12 this year? 13 14 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I would be glad to add that to the motion, but 15 I don't think that's needed. 16 17 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: For budget reasons. 18 19 MR. SAPP: Dr. Bortone just had the mic and I didn't hear any 20 objections based on funding and so I assume that means that 21 we've got money for funding for travel for council members to 22 go? 23 24 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: We could budget at least one 25 liaison, but I would like to do that after the first of the year 26 so it doesn't interfere with this year's budget. 27 28 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think their next meeting is too soon for 29 anybody to plan to attend anyway and so it wouldn't start until 30 after the first of the year. Any further discussion on this? 31 All in favor signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion passes. 32 33 DISCUSSION OF GREAT AMERICAN SEAFOOD COOK OFF 34 35 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: While I was attending the Gulf and 36 South Atlantic Fishery Foundation meeting, I was also able to 37 attend the Great American Seafood Cook Off, in which obviously 38 seafood people from all around the country, but especially the 39 Gulf of Mexico, are there, both the restaurant industry and the 40 fishing industry. 41 42 The National Marine Fisheries Service is well represented there, 43 as well as the Gulf and South Atlantic Fishery Foundation. They 44 have booths and I was just interested in asking the council if 45 they would be interested in the Gulf Council serving as a 46 sponsor. 47 48 I believe the amount would be about $2,500 and this would allow 181 1 us our logo present and maybe a presence to be able to hand out 2 some of our literature, but I think more importantly, especially 3 for the next couple of years, to show our support and strong 4 support for the Gulf of Mexico seafood industry. 5 6 MR. PERRET: Dr. Bortone, that would get us on the logo and we 7 would be one of the sponsors and is that right? I would like to 8 move that we expend up to -- Is that enough money, $2,500? 9 10 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: I just talked with Judi yesterday 11 and the amount she spent is $2,500. There's certain levels, of 12 course, but the minimum level for your logo display is $2,500. 13 14 MR. PERRET: I move that we become a sponsor with an expenditure 15 of up to $2,500 for the Great American Seafood Cook Off. 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second? It's seconded. Is there 18 discussion? 19 20 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm not certain what all the $2,500, other than 21 just you have a logo there. I know that there's different 22 booths and there's different levels of participation and so that 23 would be a question and I think that we should look into that. 24 25 Then the other question would be since we work like under 26 contracts and stuff, because we're a contractor, basically, are 27 we allowed to spend our monies to sponsor something such as 28 this? I don't know the answer to that. Shep, would you have 29 the answer? 30 31 MR. GRIMES: No, I don't off the top of my head, but I guess I 32 would make sure that I checked with the Grants people and ensure 33 it was something that your grant authorized you to do. 34 35 MR. PERRET: I've got to believe it's all right, since NMFS is 36 one of the major sponsors and other government agencies, but 37 besides that, additionally, I would assume we get, if we become 38 a sponsor, that we get X number of tickets for attending various 39 functions and, Dr. Shipp, I don't want to be in the chair's 40 shoes to have to decide who gets to go. 41 42 MS. WILLIAMS: Instead of passing this motion at this meeting, 43 could we get Steve to maybe check into the different levels to 44 make sure what level we have to be at in order to set up a booth 45 and information and stuff like that? We may need to have a 46 higher level of funding than that, if you don't mind checking 47 into that, Steve. 48 182 1 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: I can do that. I was just offering 2 to walk into this easily and I know there are more. I would 3 hate to guess how much the National Marine Fisheries Service is 4 into this, because they have a large display there. I had on my 5 agenda to talk to Shep about the legality, but I just didn't get 6 around to that part, but certainly we would not expend funds 7 were it not legal. 8 9 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I still think we could go ahead and pass this 10 motion now and modify it later if we wanted a higher level. Any 11 further discussion on this motion? 12 13 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: I talked with Judi and I think they 14 were already signing up sponsors for this next year. 15 16 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any other discussion? Let's vote on this. All 17 in favor signify by saying aye; opposed. The motion passes. 18 The last item, Ms. Williams. 19 20 DISCUSSION OF COUNCIL MEMBER NEEDS 21 22 MS. WILLIAMS: I've already spoken a little bit about this. 23 Some of the council members, and I would assume it could be on 24 those who need the service, but now that we have went electronic 25 and some of us where we live have dial-up service or we're 26 already contracted through one provider that you can't get this 27 higher speed I guess is what you would call it, other than the 28 dial-up service, because I happen to be one of those that lives 29 out in the country. 30 31 I think there's a few more of us around here, but just the fact 32 that we went electronically, I would like for council or the 33 council office to allow us to purchase some type of a netbook or 34 they can go out and purchase them, something smaller, so that 35 now that we don't have a briefing book to carry around with us 36 that we would have something a little more feasible to carry 37 around so that we can look more in depth at our briefing books, 38 as well as some type of an air mobile card or whatever they're 39 called. 40 41 Like I said, I know at these meetings we will come in here and 42 we have difficulties with the hotel's internet service. I know 43 our staff has their own internet thing that they can connect 44 with, but the members needs to also have that same connection 45 type of service through a secure network, rather than trying to 46 use a hotel's that is unsecure and very limited. 47 48 I'm not certain if we provide air cards, and that may not be the 183 1 correct word for it, to our staff members or not. I don't even 2 have a problem with us paying for them to have an air card, but 3 I think it's something that we need, each and every one of us, 4 so that we don't have the problem with the internet service at 5 these meetings and so that we don't necessarily have the 6 problems at home, to where we have to go out and purchase a 7 different type of service, where most of us are probably already 8 under contracts with our providers. If that's possible, I would 9 like for us to explore that. I would also like to hear if there 10 are any other council members that has some of the same needs as 11 far as their materials. 12 13 MR. FISCHER: My only issue is without getting the CD that you 14 have to be online to access what you want to access and I'm not 15 saying I live out in the boonies, because Cut Off is right dead 16 between Galliano and Larose. I just do have times I'm not 17 online and would like to be able to view the documents. 18 19 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there any further discussion? 20 21 MR. SAPP: I don't think we ought to just drop the issue. We've 22 shifted away from a system that worked for everybody to a new 23 system that's made it difficult for a couple of our council 24 members and I think we ought to explore some options for making 25 all the materials available to them like they always were. 26 27 If it means that we've got to go back in and provide them 28 materials the way we used to provide them to them or if we need 29 to make some accommodations for them to access the information 30 electronically, I don't think you can just dump that additional 31 expenditure on a council member because of a new system that 32 we've implemented for how we communicate with everybody. 33 34 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I agree and I suspect perhaps a motion is in 35 order to direct staff to examine various possibilities or 36 alternatives for supplying council members with whatever 37 materials are needed. Any further discussion on this? 38 39 MR. HENDRIX: I think as part of the process that it would 40 probably be good for Dr. Bortone and the staff if council 41 members would notify them if they are indeed having problems, so 42 they'll know who to address this to. 43 44 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I think that's an excellent idea. 45 46 MS. WILLIAMS: I've had difficulties ever since we've actually 47 went to the electronic form, either with my laptop being 48 extremely old or the area that I live in. I know someone out 184 1 there has got service, because every now and then if the weather 2 conditions are right, sometimes I'm able to pick up on their 3 signal for a very short period of time. Although I pay for a 4 service, we just don't have the high-speed service and I can't 5 get out of my contract right now to go and purchase another 6 contract to where maybe I would be able to. 7 8 We have to have our documents as council members and so I would 9 like to be able, and this shouldn't have to take a year or six 10 months, to have some way to talk with Steve and perhaps go out 11 and check with some of these services and maybe be able to find 12 a small netbook or something that the council office could 13 provide myself with. I assume Myron could also call Steve and 14 us work with Steve through this, rather than it being a long 15 drawn-out deal, if that's acceptable. 16 17 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: I failed to find out whether I had a second to 18 this motion. Would someone second it? 19 20 MR. PERRET: I'll second it. 21 22 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any further comments or discussion on this? 23 24 MR. PERRET: Since I live on that private road behind that 25 locked gate in the middle of those woods, all I've got is dial- 26 up and I've had three satellite dishes on the side of the house 27 trying to get internet service that way. Nancy knows more about 28 that than me and she gave up. 29 30 I don't have the patience for this dial-up stuff back in those 31 woods and so anything shorter, you just keep mailing me 32 material. It's not going to do me any good. That's the only 33 way I get it. 34 35 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: You and Ms. Williams live in Mississippi, 36 right? 37 38 MR. PERRET: Rural Mississippi. 39 40 MS. WILLIAMS: Dr. Bortone, do we provide any of our staff 41 members air cards or any type of internet service or anything 42 for them to use? 43 44 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR BORTONE: We don't provide internet service, 45 but we do provide air cards. Some are fixed in the laptops and 46 a few are roving that are allowed to move around. 47 48 We found out -- We did a cost/benefit analysis and as you know, 185 1 when you go to some hotels, many hotels, you have an additional 2 charge, ten-dollars a night or something, and when we cost 3 averaged that out, it was actually cheaper to have the air cards 4 and trade them around to different people and so when people 5 travel they take the air card with them if they want and so that 6 is provided. I'm not sure how many we have, three of four or 7 something like that, among the staff. 8 9 Service for that is about fifty-dollars a month or something 10 like that. The other thing that was brought up, which I can 11 look into, and Steve would probably be able to answer it right 12 away, is if we had a separate wireless system just for the 13 council here, but I'm not sure what the advantage of that would 14 be, but we can certainly look into that. 15 16 The other idea -- The simpler way may be to just send out the 17 materials digitally on a disk like was -- We realize we're 18 trying to experiment and modernize and so I'm appreciating this 19 feedback that we're getting. Other groups have gone totally 20 digitally and we're trying to move in that direction, because in 21 the long run it is a lot cheaper to do that, but we certainly 22 will explore all these avenues. 23 24 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Mr. Perret wants to vote on this. All in favor 25 of the motion signify by saying aye; those opposed. The motion 26 passes. The last agenda item is Election of Council Chair and 27 Vice Chair and so, Mr. Teehan. 28 29 ELECTION OF COUNCIL CHAIRMAN AND VICE CHAIRMAN 30 31 MR. TEEHAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a 32 motion, if that's what it has to be, to nominate you, Robert 33 Shipp, for reelection to be Chairman of the council. 34 35 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Is there a second? 36 37 MS. WILLIAMS: Second. 38 39 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any opposition? Hearing none, I'm elected, I 40 guess. Go ahead, Mr. Teehan. 41 42 MR. TEEHAN: Let me do it again. I would like to make a motion 43 to reelect Robert Gill to Vice Chairman. 44 45 MS. WILLIAMS: Second. 46 47 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Any opposition? 48 186 1 MR. PERRET: I think we need to discuss this one. 2 3 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: Kay, did you want to -- 4 5 MS. WILLIAMS: By all means, I definitely support Bob Gill 6 remaining vice chair, but I want him to know that we're getting 7 short on people to make motions around this table and so you may 8 never make it to chair, but yes, thank you. 9 10 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: If there is no further business -- 11 12 MR. BOYD: If it's not out of order, I would like to make the 13 motion to adjourn. As soon as I have a second, I'll explain 14 myself. I was informed the other day by Dr. McIlwain and by Mr. 15 Perret, in concert with Mr. Teehan, that I was obligated to buy 16 drinks until I made my first motion. I just wanted to take that 17 burden off of myself. 18 19 CHAIRMAN SHIPP: We will see you all in Baton Rouge in October. 20 21 (Whereupon, the meeting adjourned at 2:10 p.m., August 20, 22 2010.) 23 24 - - - 25 187 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 3 Call to Order and Introductions..................................4 4 5 Swearing in of New Council Members...............................5 6 7 Adoption of Agenda...............................................5 8 9 Approval of Minutes..............................................6 10 11 Briefing on Oil Spill............................................6 12 13 Fisheries 101....................................................13 14 15 Presentation on Supplemental Recreational Red Snapper Season.....26 16 17 Public Testimony.................................................31 18 Final Framework Action for Greater Amberjack................31 19 2010 Supplemental Recreational Red Snapper Season...........36 20 Open Public Comment Period..................................70 21 22 Reef Fish Management Committee Report............................97 23 24 AP Selection Committee Report....................................134 25 26 SEDAR Selection Committee Report.................................134 27 28 Administrative Policy Committee Report...........................134 29 30 Shrimp Management Committee Report...............................136 31 32 Data Collection Committee Report.................................138 33 34 Sustainable Fisheries/Ecosystem Committee Report.................140 35 36 Habitat Protection Committee Report..............................164 37 38 Outreach and Education Committee Report..........................165 39 40 Discussion of Budget/Personnel Committee.........................166 41 42 Spiny Lobster/Stone Crab Committee Report........................170 43 44 Other Business...................................................175 45 Report from SEAMAP Meeting..................................175 46 Report from the Gulf and South Atlantic Fishery Foundation 47 Trustee Meeting.............................................177 48 Discussion of Mackerel Latent Permits.......................178 188 1 Discussion of Liaison with the Caribbean Fishery Management 2 Council.....................................................180 3 Discussion of Great American Seafood Cook Off...............181 4 Discussion of Council Member Needs..........................183 5 6 Election of Council Chairman and Vice Chairman...................186 7 8 Adjournment......................................................187 9 10 Table of Contents................................................188 11 12 Table of Motions.................................................190 13 14 - - - 15 189 1 TABLE OF MOTIONS 2 3 PAGE 98: Motion that in Action 1 that the preferred alternative 4 be Alternative 3. Alternative 3 is to establish a recreational 5 seasonal closure May 1 through June 30. The motion failed on 6 page 100. 7 8 PAGE 101: Motion that the council request that staff prepare a 9 discussion paper for a future council meeting on intersector 10 share transfers, use-it-or-lose-it clause, reef fish permit 11 requirement, bycatch shares, law enforcement and administrative 12 issues, collection of resource rents, additional 13 characterization of shareholders, some methodology for surveying 14 non-shareholders who might wish to participate, and leasing cap. 15 The motion carried on page 103. 16 17 PAGE 103: Motion to table the consideration of the IFQ Finance 18 Program until the next meeting. The motion carried on page 103. 19 20 PAGE 104: Motion to approve the Red Grouper Regulatory 21 Amendment and deem it necessary and appropriate. The motion 22 carried on page 105. 23 24 PAGE 105: Motion that the Southeast Fisheries Science Center 25 look at the observer discard information with regard to red 26 grouper and determine the magnitude of impact to the stock 27 assessment. The motion carried on page 105. 28 29 PAGE 105: Motion that the Review Panel for the Gag Assessment 30 be reconvened. The motion carried on page 105. 31 32 PAGE 106: Motion that the interim rule establish a commercial 33 quota of 100,000 pounds of gag and zero pounds for the 34 recreational sector. The motion carried on page 111. 35 36 PAGE 113: Motion that staff continue working on the fish tag 37 discussion paper and specifically address some of the state 38 permit requirements. The motion carried on page 113. 39 40 PAGE 113: Motion that in Tab B, Number 8, that Alternative 2 be 41 removed and moved to the considered but rejected section. The 42 motion carried on page 113. 43 44 PAGE 114: Motion that in Tab B, Number 8 that Alternative 3 be 45 removed and moved to the considered but rejected section. The 46 motion carried on page 114. 47 48 PAGE 114: Motion that in Tab B, Number 8 that the preferred 190 1 alternative be Alternative 4, Option b. Alternative 4 is 2 establish a jurisdictional allocation based on the Florida Keys 3 (Monroe County) jurisdictional boundary between the Gulf and 4 South Atlantic Councils for black grouper acceptable biological 5 catch (ABC) based on one of the following methods. Option b is 6 the South Atlantic equals 47 percent of ABC and Gulf equals 53 7 percent of ABC, which is established by using 50 percent of 8 catch history from 1986 through 2008 plus 50 percent of the 9 catch history from 2006 through 2008. The motion carried on 10 page 114. 11 12 PAGE 115: Motion in Tab B, Number 9 to add a third option to 13 create two management units, with Florida being defined as the 14 eastern subunit and the other four states being defined as the 15 western subunit. The motion carried on page 116. 16 17 PAGE 118: Motion to invite Dr. Clay Porch to attend the next 18 council meeting and give a presentation on the pros and cons of 19 setting the quota in terms of pounds or numbers of fish. The 20 motion carried on page 120. 21 22 PAGE 121: Motion to reopen the recreational red snapper fishery 23 at 12:01 a.m. on October 1, 2010, and fishing on Friday, 24 Saturday, and Sunday, and closing on November 22, 2010, at 12:01 25 a.m., twenty-four fishing days. The motion carried on page 130. 26 27 PAGE 132: Motion that in the options paper for the 2011-2012 28 red snapper TAC that the preferred alternative be Alternative 2, 29 which is set the total allowable catch for 2011 using the 30 Scientific and Statistical Committee's acceptable biological 31 catch recommendation, which is 75 percent of the overfishing 32 limit defined in the 2009 red snapper stock assessment update. 33 Total allowable catch would be 7.185 million pounds. Based on 34 the 51 percent to 49 percent commercial/recreational allocation 35 of red snapper, the commercial and recreational quotas would be 36 3.664 and 3.521 million pounds, respectively. The motion 37 carried on page 132. 38 39 PAGE 134: Motion for staff to incorporate all suggested changes 40 up to page 53, Section XVI(3)(a), with the exception of the 41 Salary/Wage Administration on pages 8 and 9, and Leave Donation 42 on page 24. The motion carried on page 135. 43 44 PAGE 135: Motion to move the discussion of "Stock Assessments" 45 to the Policy Section. The motion carried on page 135. 46 47 PAGE 135: Motion that council staff look into the features and 48 attendance of our current SSC and SEDAR meetings and ensure that 191 1 participation is at the level that is required by the council. 2 The motion carried on page 135. 3 4 PAGE 137: Motion to request that NMFS/Gulf Council work with 5 the Gulf and South Atlantic Fisheries Foundation to conduct a 6 workshop to examine sawfish interactions in southeast shrimp 7 fisheries. The motion carried on page 138. 8 9 PAGE 138: Motion to write a letter to Eric Schwaab to encourage 10 MRIP to expedite stratifying the geographic area and dividing 11 the waves into single months in the Gulf of Mexico and to 12 request a response explaining when expedited improvements to 13 MRFSS could be implemented in the Gulf. The motion carried on 14 page 139. 15 16 PAGE 139: Motion to recommend that the VMS Advisory Panel be 17 reconvened and that the chair of the VMS Advisory Panel and the 18 Chair of the Data Collection Committee work with council staff 19 to invite all of the appropriate attendees to the meeting. The 20 motion carried on page 139. 21 22 PAGE 140: Motion that a workshop be held in November or 23 December to address sector separation. The motion carried on 24 page 147. 25 26 PAGE 148: Motion to approve the formation of the Ad Hoc ACL/ACT 27 Control Rule Workgroup as defined in Tab G, Number 6(a). The 28 motion carried on page 150. 29 30 PAGE 152: Motion to add an Alternative 4 to Actions 1.4 and 1.5 31 to add the respective species to a joint plan with the South 32 Atlantic Fishery Management Council. The motion carried on page 33 154. 34 35 PAGE 155: Motion to make Alternative 2 in Action 1.6 the 36 preferred alternative. The motion carried on page 155. 37 38 PAGE 157: Motion to ask staff to include in the Generic ACL/AM 39 Amendment a discussion of the current catch limits in the EEZ of 40 red drum, goliath grouper, Nassau grouper, and octocorals in 41 lieu of the actions in the document. The motion carried on page 42 160. 43 44 PAGE 160: Motion that staff be directed to prepare the analysis 45 to repeal the Stone Crab FMP. The motion carried on page 161. 46 47 PAGE 162: Motion that the preferred alternative for Action 7.4 48 be Alternative 2, Option a. The motion carried on page 162. 192 1 2 PAGE 162: Motion that for Action 7.5, replace the alternatives 3 with discussion that there is an ACL of zero for wild live rock 4 and add a discussion explaining that there is no need for an ACL 5 for aquacultured live rock. The motion carried on page 163. 6 7 PAGE 165: Motion to approve the council's Habitat Policy and 8 Procedures Document as revised in Tab J, Number 4. The motion 9 carried on page 165. 10 11 PAGE 166: Motion to approve the draft of the five-year 12 strategic plan for the Outreach and Education Advisory Panel. 13 The motion carried on page 166. 14 15 PAGE 166: Motion to convene the Outreach and Education Advisory 16 Panel prior to the October council meeting to review the draft 17 strategic plan, develop an action plan, and assign work groups. 18 The motion carried on page 166. 19 20 PAGE 170: Motion to allow the appropriate staff people, as well 21 as legal counsel and committee chairs of the respective 22 councils, to meet and resolve differences in the Draft Joint 23 Spiny Lobster Amendment 10. The motion carried on page 170. 24 25 PAGE 171: Motion in Action 3 to move Alternative 6 to the 26 considered but rejected section. The motion carried on page 27 171. 28 29 PAGE 171: Motion to delete Option a for Alternatives 2 through 30 5 in Action 3. The motion carried on page 171. 31 32 PAGE 171: Motion that Action 3, Alternative 3 be moved to the 33 considered but rejected section. The motion carried on page 34 171. 35 36 PAGE 171: Motion in Action 4, Alternative 2, to have two 37 suboptions. Suboption a would be the South Atlantic data-poor 38 ABC Control Rule and Suboption b would be the Gulf Council data- 39 poor ABC Control Rule. The motion carried on page 172. 40 41 PAGE 172: Motion that Alternative 3 in Section 2.4.2 be moved 42 to the considered but rejected section. The motion carried on 43 page 172. 44 45 PAGE 172: Motion that Alternative 2, which is to establish in- 46 season AMs, option b, for the recreational fishery, and option 47 c, for recreational and commercial combined accountability 48 measures, in Action 5 be moved to the considered but rejected 193 1 section. The motion carried on page 173. 2 3 PAGE 173: Motion in Action 7 that the preferred alternative be 4 Alternative 4. The motion carried on page 173. 5 6 PAGE 173: Motion in Action 8 that the preferred alternatives be 7 Alternative 3, which is to revise the current regulations to 8 clearly state that all vessels must have either a federal spiny 9 lobster permit or a Florida Restricted Species Endorsements 10 associated with a Florida Saltwater License in order to obtain a 11 tailing permit, and Alternative 5, all Caribbean spiny lobster 12 landed must be all whole or all tailed condition. The motion 13 carried on page 173. 14 15 PAGE 174: Motion to delete the phrase "not currently in use in 16 other fisheries" in Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 in Action 10. The 17 motion carried on page 174. 18 19 PAGE 178: Motion to initiate an amendment to the Coastal 20 Migratory Pelagic Plan to address latent permits. The motion 21 carried on page 179. 22 23 PAGE 181: Motion that the Gulf Council establish a liaison 24 relationship with the Caribbean Council similar to what occurs 25 with the South Atlantic. The motion carried on page 181. 26 27 PAGE 182: Motion to sponsor with an expenditure of up to $2,500 28 for the Great American Seafood Cook Off. The motion carried on 29 page 183. 30 31 PAGE 184: Motion to direct staff to examine various 32 possibilities or alternatives for supplying council members with 33 whatever materials are needed. The motion carried on page 186. 34 35 - - - 194

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