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Five Guys vs. In-N-Out? [moved from Los Angeles board]
- EarlyBird Feb 14, 2012 02:55 PM
The scuttlebutt is true: Five Guys, the famous burger chain on the East Coast, is putting up a shop in Westwood, just a stone's throw from In-N-Out. I work at UCLA and can easily walk to both. On and I will!
My understanding is that Five Guys is the East Coast version of In-N-Out. Both have rabid local followings.
So: is there anyone here who has tried both, and which one is better. Why?
Five Guys is a bigger burger with more topping including mushrooms (but with a bun that just completly falls apart in the middle of a bite) and it runs a few dollars more than In-N-Out but my heart belong to a Double Double Animal style with extra pickles and fries well.
There is also a Fatburger in Westwood. You could eat a different burger three times a week. If you throw in Barney's Beanery and The Stand you could walk to a different burger every day.
And that's not counting Burger King in the Village or Carl's Jr on campus.
As to your question: I prefer In and Out, because I think of it as a great value. The Five Guys burger was bigger, but more expensive. But the real reason I never go to Five Guys is because the store near my house -- Fox Hills Mall -- is always messy. For whatever reason, they never clear or wipe the tables. I've seen employees on their break just sitting around while there is no place to sit because every table is messy, smeared with condiments and peanut shells.
Don't misunderstand, employees deserve a break, that's not the issue. But the dirty tables is an issue, at least for me. Enough that I've stopped trying to eat there. Maybe the Westwood location will be cleaner.
(I'm not a neat freak or anything. I get that it's a fast food joint. But the messes I've seen are just icky.)
re: cwdonald
Fatburger is NOT a national chain.
Sorry, but you are mistaken...There are locations from coast to coast, up and down the coasts and in between....If that's not national, than what is it?
The Jersey City, NJ Fatburger closed within a couple of years of opening. It was fair at best.
re: fourunder
Fatburger has several branches in Dubai now, so it's technically also an "international" chain.
re: cwdonald
There's a Fatburger in Columbia, MD!
re: cwdonald
The thread is for In-n-Out vs. Five Guys. "Chains" is the appropriate forum.
personally, never got the appeal of five guys burger. the bun is terrible. burger was overcooked the 2 times i went. their fries are great but i typically go to a burger place for the burgers. not the fries. i'd take in n out every day of the week. twice on sundays.
I absolutely do not like the buns at Five Guys...they're too sweet and they crumble. In-N-Out is the only way to go.
Animal style.
re: latindancer
Interesting that there is a consensus so far about the buns. Buns are a very important part of a burger. I don't like them too thick or bready, but certainly don't want them to disintegrate, either.
I'd be interested if East Coasters used to Five Guys have tried In-N-Out and how they feel about the two.
"My understanding is that Five Guys is the East Coast version of In-N-Out. Both have rabid local followings."
Not really - different niches, entirely. The only thing they seem to share is that they have their rabid followings.
Why not try both for yourself and decide on your own?
Cost of a burger at both places will be no more than $10, maybe $12.
Splurge. Live a little.
Then come back and tell us what YOU think.
Because if you ask us you're never going to get a consensus. A quick search of these boards will more than verify that.
re: ipsedixit
"Then come back and tell us what YOU think."
Yeah, that' the plan when Five Guys opens in Westwood.
Wow - that's interesting about the buns since I think INO's wonderbread-esque bun is pretty crappy, however they get a plus for toasting them. Does FG's have a better bun than INO - absolutely and I have never had one fall apart on me. Personally I like the thicker denser bun at FG's and the small amount of sweetness is nice.
Here is what I posted on another board in response to a reviewer:
I read you review, very nicely done btw, but in 'almost' every instance I kept scratching my head and wondering if you got the two mixed up.
1) The Bun
FG: Bun is almost perfect, nice, a little dense due to the egg and slightly sweet but good flavor
INO: wonder bread like, flavorless and too light, seems like the cheapest bun you can buy
2) Meat
FG: Thick, fresh, lean, very strong beef flavor - mmmmmm good
INO: Thin, very salty, fatty, bland tasting except for saltiness
3) Cheese
FG: Melted, nice quality with good flavor, one of the better Swiss cheeses and of course different choices
INO: Yuck, pasty, coats your mouth, cross between Velveeta and cheddar flavor, not something I would want to eat again. No choices except pasty yellow cheese or nothing.
4) Produce
FG - Lots of choices all about average quality
INO - Basics but very good quality and fresh.
5) Condiments
FG - Again lots of choices all of them good.
INO - 1000 island with extra pickle relish - the extra relish seems to overpower what little taste the meat has but it does compliment the produce rather well.
FG - Larger, cooked crisp in peanut oil, and you can get them Cajun style but eat them while they are warm and
INO - Smaller, usually limp and greasy, even cooking them extra crispy doesn't help much, plus you have a bout a 2 minute window to consume them after that they seem disgusting.
The Decision:
The meat, bun, toppings, cheese, fries and condiments are all better at 5G while INO wins in produce and price. If you want a good burger that highlights the meat and you can choose to top how you want and don't mind spending some $$ than FG wins hands down. If you want a burger that tastes mostly of sauce and produce with not much meat flavor, except salt and you don't have much money INO is the place to go.
SIDEBAR: When I lived in California we used to do blind taste tests on a regular basis and one time we did fast food hamburgers. There were many people who were INO aficionados there that claimed it would win hands down. It didn't, in actuality INO placed in the bottom half each time we did a blind taste test. (A interesting comment from one of the tasters hat loved INO, he identified the burger as INO but said we were pulling a fast one on him and had removed the meat, we hadn't.) I also did a sneaky thing on some relatives from Europe, they had heard that INO was the best burgers in the world and wanted to try it so I bought some INO and Carl's Jr. burgers on the way over to meet them but switched the wrappers. Guess which one they loved - the one in the INO wrapper. My conclusion from that is INO is mostly about low price and hype.
NOTE: FG's depends on the franchisee, some are good some are not so good so YMMV. INO does not have that problem the burger is the same everywhere.
re: RetiredChef
UPDATE: I just ate at a five guys on the west coast and the bun was VERY different that what I had on the east coast. If the company has changed to this bun then I understand why there are complaints, it was not very good and did indeed get mushy and fell apart.
re: RetiredChef
1) The Bun
FG: Bun is almost perfect,
It's been opined by many ....including myself, the bun is pretty bad on the East Coast.
re: fourunder
Hmmmm, maybe they changed, I was introduced to FG on the east coast and had them 3 times at 3 different locations, the bun was the same at all three, however that was almost three years ago. That is why those complaints that I read never computed - but they do now, if this bun is what they serve everywhere - yuck.
re: andrew_eats
If you like your buns gummy and soggy, due to the fact they wrap the finished product in foil and it steams.....or if you like your burgers well done, then you will like 5 Guys.
One point not mentioned. The toppings are free, but really you do pay for them whether you like it or not. The price of the burger includes them. A *Little Cheeseburger* is $4.69 and a *Regular Cheeseburger* is $6.19. The difference between the two in size is the LC is a 3.3 ounce patty by specification. The RC is a double patty. Considering the options available in the area, 5-Guys burgers are not even on my radar.......however, I do agree the fries are good when you eat them in the store, but the way they package them, they are not very good if you take them out, again, due to steaming in the bag.
re: andrew_eats
I am from the east coast, but I've lived in LA for many years now.
Qualifier-- LA is a burger town. Tons of char-grilled mom and pops dot the landscape, the popular mini and large fast food chains (like Astro Burger and In-N-Out), as well as the upscale Fancyburgers™ that you find in Gastropubs and specialized burger joints all over the Southland.
I just tried my first Five Guys cheeseburger today. The result? A hot mess.
Who thought it was a good idea to wrap a burger in foil? When you open the thing it's a disgusting mess-- crushed, limp and sad, steaming not only the bread, but the delicate vegetables like lettuce so there's no crunch left in them. The bun was so wet that it disintegrated about 1/3 way into the burger. The meat was under seasoned, and was essentially a texture vehicle for the toppings.
The whole experience was sad, sad, sad. I'm glad I tried it once, but I will not be back. As far as I am concerned, it was a waste of 900 calories.
Mr Taster
They're nothing at all alike.
Five Guys has much larger burgers with more toppings - bacon, sauteed mushrooms, grilled onions, etc. Their junior burger with a regular order of fries is more than enough food for me and I'm a guy who weighs over 200 lbs. They also have outstanding french fries and tell you the exact farm the potatoes came from. I don't know if they have special requirements for their potatoes but the fries are outstanding.
In-n-Out, on the other hand, is an overhyped fast food chain with just another cardboard patty and fries that aren't worth the calories.
re: mahalan
I'm glad to know that they are different beasts. I was under the impression that they were very similar types of burgers.
I disagree strongly with you on In-N-Out, however. They certainly ARE fast food, but great fast food. And I'm realizing that as much as I can appreciate "gourmet" burgers, I'm really quite done with them. (Not to say that Five Guys is "gourmet.")
re: mahalan
I can respect anyone's opinion, but I would say calling I&O a "another cardboard patty and fries that aren't worth the calories" is really REALLY a stretch. I&O is clearly superior to your average fast food burger, I've never met a person who thought otherwise.
re: Captain_Aizen
Hi. My name is Davwud.
re: Captain_Aizen
Meet me too, I find INO pretty average fast food fare, fries are just awful but let's stick to their burger which is average, better than some not as good as others. My proof is that our food group used to do true blind taste testing's and they did three different burger tests and INO always placed in the middle of the results. So when you couldn't see and didn't know what you were eating even INO aficionados picked other fast food burgers as superior.
re: RetiredChef
It's not fair to do a blind taste test. We eat with our eyes just as much as we eat with our noses and mouths.
To be clear, this is what a Five Guys PR photo of a bacon cheeseburger looks like:
This is the actual product:
That's pretty much what my burger looked like when I opened it. Soggy bun, wilted lettuce, a mess. Sad, sad, sad-- the whole thing steamed in foil until everything just died.
Now, here's a PR photo of an In-N-Out burger
And photos of what a typical burgers from In-N-Out look like:
The funny thing is, in the case of In-N-Out, I think the real burgers actually look a lot more appetizing and inviting than the the official PR photo- exactly the opposite experience when you compare the Five Guys burger. The PR photo looks like a plasticine model like they have in Japanese restaurant windows.
Freshness is communicated in large part through our eyes. You can see that the big beautiful iceberg, tomato and onions are not old and wilted. They're bright, crisp and colorful as they poke out of the plump bun. You can see that Five Guys burger is clearly a disgusting mess. Freshness was an afterthought, if they even thought about it at all.
Mr Taster
re: Mr Taster
But would you really rank the "freshness" of either burger above the other? It's really about presentation, and as you and so many others have pointed out, that FG wraps their burger in foil it steams and makes the whole thing soggy and disintegrated. I've only eaten there once, and ate it in the restaurant immediately after being served, and didn't experience that.
I just don't know what makes FG special. A million other places do their burgers. You only get an INO burget at INO.
re: EarlyBird
>> But would you really rank the "freshness" of either burger above the other?
Yes, I would.
>> It's really about presentation
>> FG wraps their burger in foil it steams and makes the whole thing soggy
When you wrap a hot burger in a piece of metal, and the burger continues to cook, we're no longer talking about presentation, but rather about preparation. One is purely about aesthetics. The other is about how the restaurant actually cooks and prepares their food-- two fundamentally different concepts.
"Unwrap it and eat it right away" is not an acceptable workaround for a known problem with an obvious solution (i.e. don't steam your already cooked burger).
Although it drives me crazy that Five Guys knows about this problem and yet do nothing to fix it, it makes me totally batty that people love it anyway. Somehow, people either 1) do not mind the soggy fall-apart bun and wilted vegetables, 2) aren't paying attention to these problems or 3) simply don't care.
For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when TV stations were still broadcasting 4:3 aspect ratios on 16:9 TVs and hardly anyone (except me) seemed to notice or care that they were watching grotesquely distorted, stretched images. Everyone on TV was suddenly shaped either like Jabba the Hutt or C3PO, and nobody seemed to notice or care. Thankfully, technology seems to have more or less sorted out that technological blip, despite the fact that few were actually calling for change
Sometimes I feel like other humans are experiencing an entirely different world than I am.
Mr Taster
re: Mr Taster
"it makes me totally batty that people love it anyway"
re: monkeyrotica
re: monkeyrotica
Where did you find my 2nd grade photo?!?!
Mr Taster
re: Mr Taster
A blind TASTE test is exactly that - a test to determine what the taster likes the best without any outside (marketing) influence. As far as eating with your eyes - it seems you picked the worse looking picture of 5G's you could find on the internet when there were plenty of others that looked much better, you also chose not to post the INO burger pictures that were nasty looking. So a fair comparison would be nasty looking 5G's vs nasty looking INO OR good looking 5G's vs good looking INO.
The bottom line is that looks is more important to you, but to me taste is king. I would much rather have a plain looking plate of food that is tastes great than a plate of great looking food that tastes plain. To each his own.
BTW I never mentioned 5G's in my post, I do think 5G's is a superior product when done right and an inferior product when done incorrectly. Their (new) 5G bun is terrible on the other hand I am glad to see that INO has changed their bun for the better (at least in Arizona it was different then the buns they served 4-5 years ago.) IMHO if INO is a 5 than 5G's is a 4 (done poorly) or a 6 (done well), there are much better burgers out there than either INO and 5G's
re: RetiredChef
>> ...it seems you picked the worse looking picture of 5G's you could find on the internet ... you also chose not to post the INO burger pictures that were nasty looking.
This is not at all what I did. I selected pics that best represented my personal experience eating at both establishments. I then compared them with the best publicity photos I could find.
Case in point... this is a better looking In-N-Out burger photo:
...but I didn't pick that one, because my In-N-Out burgers don't commonly look that beautiful (although they do sometimes.)
And I was actually kind to Five Guys, in that my actual burger bun was far greasier than the one in the photo I selected.
>> The bottom line is that looks is more important to you
You are clearly unfamiliar with my nearly ten years of contributions to the Los Angeles Chowhound board
(or, even this post just a few inches above, where I make the argument for quality over appearance.. however in the case of burger garnish, they go hand in hand):
Mr Taster
re: Mr Taster
I would add one other thing, there were quite a few INO aficionados that did the blind taste testing, they were quite vocal about being able to pick out the INO burger and were quite sure it would trounce the competition. (NOTE: This was the second burger blind taste test done by this group, the first one INO came in 3 out of 6 when it was tasted against mostly national chains, so there was some zealotry behind the INO crowd to prove that their burger was indeed the best. This group also did a third blind burger test and once again INO performed in the middle of the pack.)
Interestingly only one INO aficionado was able to identify the INO burger but even more paradoxically is that the INO aficionados rated the INO burger slightly lower than the non INO crowd. Another oddity is that the INO crowd picked Del Taco's burger (this was supposed to be the ringer in this blind taste test) most often as the 'true' INO burger. They also rated this burger higher than the non-INO crowd. (SIDEBAR: It's my opinion that the INO people were confused because the del Taco Burger was the saltiest of the 6 and I have seen that most people who love salt love the saltiness of the INO burger. Therefore when they tasted the burger they assumed the saltiest one was the INO burger and voted that way. To further back up my conjecture the INO crowd also rated the 2nd saltiest burger, higher than the non-INO crowd)
I can tell you this, doing blind tastings is a hoot, we have done lots of these and the results when you don't know what you are tasting has always surprised everyone. Examples - Imitation crab cakes were preferred over real crab cakes by a 7:3 margin, the cheapest pasta in a taste test ranked the highest, Pepsi really does win the blind taste test, most people cannot identify strawberries without the sense of smell or sight, etc. etc. You just have to be prepared to let go of you preconceived notions and accept the outcomes, luckily our food group was all good natured and in most cases worked in the industry so some of this 'research' actually was put to use.
re: Mr Taster
While this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZXpkZ... wasn't a "blind" taste test it is interesting from a couple of standpoints. First the two chains being rated (I&O and 5G's) were directly across the street from one another (allowing for equally fresh and hot burgers and fries to be sampled without undue travel/cooling/steaming time in between purchase and tasting).
Secondly this was a 20 person taste test, so a very diverse crowd including some guys from what sounded like Australia who had never before tasted burgers from either chain.
Finally, while I don't think I&O fries are tasty at all, this group split down the middle on the fries essentially. One person was undecided, but those who chose one over the other resulted in a 9 for 5G's and 10 for I&O.
Finally the burger preference was a total rout. 18 for I&O to 1 for 5G's with, again, one undecided.
For me the one issue that kills all the other fast food burger places is that, while they won't cook my burger to anything but well done, I&O will cook it the way I prefer it, medium rare. That's one factor that just can't be overcome by any of the other chains...
re: Servorg
I have seen that youtube video, but until you remove people's biases you will never get an accurate result. Hence why scientific studies are done double-blind so even the scientists biases can't effect the outcome. Besides the tasting was done in CA, home of INO, did you really expect INO to lose when there is so much peer pressure to declare it is a culinary orgasm?
To show you how strong biases work I had relatives from Europe coming to visit, In-N-Out is actually known almost worldwide and people who haven't even tried it can be cultish towards it. So my relatives wanted to try INO and we played a dirty trick on them, we bought two INO burgers and fries and two Carl's Jr. Burgers and fries, we then switched the burgers and fries and gave my unsuspecting relatives the INO (which were really Carl's Jr.) burger. They tore into it and declared it was the best meal ever, when we asked them to try our burgers they scoffed but we insisted and after taking a bite of a real INO burger that they thought was from Carl's Jr. Declared it was inferior slop and couldn't understand why we would want that.
That's the power that advertising has on us, it changes our biases. I would bet that if you took twenty people who have never had INO or 5Gs and did that same test in CA but switched the wrappers as I did to my relatives, you would get the same result. Bias and our resulting perceptions that are skewed by it have far more control over us than most people know.
re: RetiredChef
Nothing to be done about my bias for medium rare? Can't seem to get my burger to my like (except for I&O) anywhere else.
re: Servorg
Hmmmm, I live in a relatively small city (220,000) and there are 4 local independent burger joints that make a much better burger than 5G's or INO and you can get medium-rare at these places. When I lived in Los Angeles there were many more options for better burgers and they would cook to order, has something changed?
15 years ago there was a local coffee shop in the inland empire (the owner retired and sold it) that had the best burger I have ever had. He had a custom blend of fresh meat (chuck and sirloin), toasted his fresh custom made buns, he had tomatoes that always tasted home grown and he had real cheese if you wanted it. Now my mouth is watering for a burger like that but it's pretty hard for me to get excited about INO or 5G's when there are so many better choices.
re: RetiredChef
Not for $3 you can't...and seeing as how we are on the Chains board I'm asking you if you know of another chain that offers burgers medium rare? Know one? Please share.
re: Servorg
Chains like Cheesecake Factory and Houstons do medium rare, but those aren't really fast food chains. Shake Shack does medium rare, but they're a fairly small chain. Pretty sure Counter Burger also does medium rare but, again, smaller "fast casual" chain. Don't think I'd be willing to risk anything less than well done at a cheap-o fastfood chain. My violent explosive diarrhea days are well "behind" me, thankfully.
re: Servorg
Red Robin cooks burgers to order.
re: Vidute
Looking for any (other than In & Out) "fast food" drive through type places that cook to order.
re: RetiredChef
>> When I lived in Los Angeles there were many more options for better burgers and they would cook to order, has something changed?
Well, what has changed is that the FancyBurger™ has gotten a strong toehold with their unusual or exotic umami-laden toppings and condiments. Some of them are extremely good. Some are not. All are pricey- anywhere from $10-25 depending where you go for yours.
In the arena of the humble and inexpensive fast food burger, Five Guys is the biggest shakeup we've experienced in years.
Mr Taster
N.B. Pretty soon The Apple Pan's outrageously expensive coffee shop burger is going to hit the FancyBurger™ price zone, crossing all manner of unnatural boundaries in the process.
re: RetiredChef
'That' the power that advertising has on us, it changes our biases.>
My liking for animal style hamburgers at In-n-Out has nothing to do with advertising....trust me on that one.
I'm not alone.
re: Mr Taster
Oh you just had to post photos, now my mouth is watering and I'm craving a double-double. But the closest In-N-Out is a good 4 hours away.
Okay, let's get a few things straight here.
First and foremost, no one is right when they say that the two are east and west coast versions of each other. Nor are they right in saying they have nothing in common. Both are doing a "Classic American" style burger. Otherwise known as a "California" or "Diner" style burger. Wonderbread style bun and a flat top hamburger. They vary after that.
Secondly after reading literally dozens of replies on dozens of threads it appears that, for the most part anyway, if you grew up with InO you'll like them better. The opposite is of course true.
Based on my own findings and those of countless others, 5G varies wildly in quality from store to store. Inconsistency is the only constant with them. As is a higher price tag.
As for my own opinion and probably falling squarely in the second category above, I've always loved the 5G on University Ave, in Huntsville, Al. The other location is only okay. As is the case with the two different ones I've tried here at home (TO).
I had the opportunity to try InO this fall and was exceedingly underwhelmed. Not that it was bad. It wasn't. It's just that it was incredibly average. After all the hype I felt as though I was missing something. I do look forward to giving them another shot. Different city and store may bring different results.
Just my 2¢
re: Davwud
I think some of the comparisons between the two come from the styling. They both use similar colors in their logo and in their store designs. If 5Gs arrived in L.A. with a blue or purple motif, I'm not sure the comparisons would be so often made. But they both the same "red" and subliminally they feel the same.
Okay, I finally did my Five Guys vs. In-N-Out comparison.
First of all, to those who state that the two are nothing alike and therefore not a fair comparison, are you serious? Remember in 1st grade those tests that said, "a cat is like a lion like... A.) a dog is like a coyote, B.) a tree is like a pancake, or C.) a bicycle is like a blow dryer"? You were kept back a year.
- Same line up & order/sit & dine service
- Same type of burger (though granted, FG offers more toppings)
- Same fast food-using-high-quality-ingredients strategy even down to the fresh, unpeeled potatoes for fries
- Same price category
- Even the same color scheme
So. I visited Five Guys and had their regular sized (double) cheeseburger with raw onions, lettuce, tomato, mayo and pickles. I figured this is the fairest and most direct comparison to an INO Double-Double.
It's a good burger. It's surely bigger and more filling than a Double-Double, and also costs more, but I didn't feel ripped off.
Perhaps because I didn't order mushrooms and ate it immediately, the bun didn't have time to steam inside the foil wrapper and suffer the catastrophic disintegration that others have complained about. It is, however, a "messier" burger, but nothing like the sloppy mess some have described. (I for one hate getting messy when eating. My mother served Sloppy Joe's at my eighth birthday party and I cried.)
The bun is a bit sweet, more "bready" or roll-like than INO's and with sesame seeds. It's more crumbly but not in a bad way. It's served cold though, and I like that INO puts theirs on the flat top.
The patties are definitely meatier, and they are well done as INO does them. My only real criticism is that the cheese - American slice the way it should be on a cheeseburger - tasted and looked very processed, and was not melted, and was relatively skimpy given the ratio to other ingredients. They apparently apply it to the burger when they assemble it, rather than while cooking. That I didn't like. (Part of the joy of an INO Double Double is that the cheese melts into the wrapper and you have to peel it off and eat it.)
Definitely fresh, high quality ingredients. The lettuce, tomatoes and pickles remain crisper than an INO's since somehow INO's toppings get a bit heated.
Which brings me to the meat of the comparison: FG's is a nice burger, well assembled. INO's is a unique, singular amalgam of tastes - one taste really - all which make a Double Double a Double Double. Put another way, a lot of of places can and do make a FG's burger, while nobody but INO does - or can - make an INO burger.
I asked the counter person, "May I just try one fry?" and she kindly brought me a cup full for free. They are good. They are very similar to INO in the sense that they are hand cut, unpeeled and very "potatoey," but they use a seasoning salt similar to Lawry's. They taste higher end and more "restaurant-like" than INO's.
I should point out that I'm not a fry guy, and rarely order fries, and am not a fan of the unpeeled fry in general, especially INO's which are flabby even when well cooked. FG's are superior.
FG's double cheese vs. INO Double-Double? Double Double absolutely any day of the week. There is just something about how a DD all comes together that blows the doors off of FG's. Far more flavor, texture and that special something that makes INO unique. Is it a "better" burger? Yes, because it is a far better eating experience. Period.
Fries?: FG's hand's down, but by no means would I, personally, go there just because the fries are superior. I'm just not a fry guy.
Now. Back to the East Coast-West Coast thing. East Coasters are going to find FG's a better burger, a better deal, more of a meal, and they'll wonder why Californians swoon over the Double Double. That's because they're not Californians who have been raised on the DD.
Californians are going to find FG a well-executed rip off of INO but lacking "wow." Don't get me wrong: it's good, but in LA, the Land of the Burger, it just doesn't make waves.
One final point: at the FG's Westwood location, the cook staff were constantly yelling orders and spirited admonitions to each other: "big line at the door!" "order up!" "next order people!' this sort of thing, and just generally hollering. The average Marine drill squad is softer spoken. I found it strange. The man hollered - literally screamed - my order number when it came up, though I was less than two feet in front of him. He must go home hoarse.
re: EarlyBird
I think your analysis is spot on, and not just because I happen to agree with your conclusions. There's so much hate and vitriol gong back and forth on the various threads on FG vs INO, and I just don't get how anyone can say either "sucks."
I'm originally from SoCal and really missed INO when we moved up here to Seattle. FG arrived recently and we were glad to have some really good burgers to get up here. We like them a lot but they're not INO. We just spent a week of spring break down in SoCal and my 15-year-old and I each had an INO 4x4 nearly every day and were blissfully comatose. To us, INO is a ten and FG is a nine -- neither are slouches and we're happy with either. The fine points that distinguish them (toppings, bun quality) are minor. Both are leagues better than typical fast food chain burgers.
I went to UCLA and grew up in West LA. If you're into great burgers, try a tiny stand called Marty's on Pico between Overland and Beverly Glen (actual cross-street Prosser). It may just be fond memories, but I recall them as the best burgers I've ever had. Used to go every Saturday as a kid in the 70s.
re: acgold7
Ooh. I'm gonna have to try Marty's. Thanks for the recommendation.
re: EarlyBird
I've worked and lived on the westside for my whole life. I've driven by Marty's 50,000 times. For some reason, I've never stopped in.
Next week, I'm going.
re: EarlyBird
I've found the "steaming" issue more of a problem with the fries than the burger. The big 5G complaint with "soggy" fries can be traced to the carryout orders keeping the paper bag sealed tight. Steam builds up, soggy fries. Get them out the bag ASAP and you won't have this problem.
The primary critique, as noted above, is 5G's consistency. One will be fine, the one down the street will be horrible.
re: EarlyBird
Great comparison, and probably spot on for descriptions. Anyone in this thread who completely disregards either restaurant, should be ignored.
re: EarlyBird
Agree with much of your assessment but that I would take the FG burger over INO (I grew up in So Cal, too), and the location I frequent (Encinitas) is a friendlier place than Westwood sounds to be.
Attached an actual pic for those who are interested. If it appears drippy, the man ordered hot sauce with his.
I live in New York, but I visit California every summer. I actually ended up having In-N-Out first, which I gotta say was the best burger I have ever eaten! They did not use frozen fries, you could literally see them peeling the potatoes. I ended up eating from there a couple of times which was phenomenal. I recently tried Five Guys as everyone compares it to In-N-Out and I gotta say, the bag was dripping with grease. Had to wash my hands about 15 times, the potatoes had a burnt taste, and also still had their skin on them. The foil just made the burgers a mess. Overall I gotta say IN-N-OUT due to the clean and fresh looking burgers.
re: 585ray
<The foil just made the burgers a mess.>
Cannot figure out why they haven't stopped the steaming of those burgers in that foil.
Once was enough for me.
re: latindancer
I'm inclined to think it has to do with the amount of toppings they offer. I imagine a fully loaded 5G burger (LTM, bacon, pickles, cheese, onions, peppers, etc) would be unwieldy with it wrapped one side open. Same situation with the fries: even if you keep the bag open to keep them from steaming up, the ones in the bottom of the cup are a soggy mess. Shake Shack has managed to avoid both these problems with (a) In-N-Out style wrapped burgers and (b) twice fried crinkle cut fries in an open container.
re: monkeyrotica
With regards to the fries....it should be noted that INO & 5Gs use fresh potatoes and SS uses frozen....the latter's decision was made to combat soggy fries and a more consistent product..
re: fourunder
Which is why I prefer SS's fries to 5Gs. I don't see the point in touting how fresh cut your fries are if you fry them poorly so you end up with a soggy mess. There's an upscale eatery near where I work that makes a big to-do about how their fries are fresh cut. Every time I've been there, they've given me soggy, greasy, inedible strands of potato with the skin on the end to know how fresh the potato was before it died a horrible, slow, under-temperature death. Meanwhile, the chinese carryout up the road serves frozen crinkle cut fries that are fried perfectly. Hot, crispy, not greasy.
The thing that's odd about 5G's burger wrapping making it soggier is that other fastfood burger places use a similiar technique, but I don't recall them being particularly soggy. Maybe because McD's uses frozen patties instead of fresh? But Wendy's uses fresh beef and I don't think I'd call their burgers soggy.
re: monkeyrotica
Herein lies the french fry dilema. Frozen fries, 9 times out of 10 will be more esthetically pleasing. However, I've had nothing but great fries from 5 Guys. Get 'em out of the bag ASAP and you shouldn't have much in the way of problems. If a particular store is consistently soggy even with quick extrication then ask for well done.
re: Davwud
I've had about a 30% success rate with their fries. I have about a dozen 5Gs near me and have narrowed it down to 2 that deliver a consistent product. The rest are all over the map: soggy fries, stale fries, skunky meat, slow service, etc. It comes down to the managers at those two stores doing their jobs. I've seen them throw whole batches of fries out that weren't fried right or have been under the heat lamps too long.
re: monkeyrotica
Ya. 5 Guys is known for wild inconsistency. If you get a good one, it's great. If not, not so much.
I can't wait to try InO again. Found it slightly above average. Nothing more.
re: Davwud
In all fairness, In-N-Out burgers are not magic, and there are way better burgers if we are talking about restaurant burgers...etc. However, for fast food/inexpensive burgers, In-N-Out burgers are great.
re: Davwud
The Burger Joint has the best fries and they use fresh potatoes. The fries are hot, crisp and golden on the outside and fluffy on the inside. The burgers and fries are served on a paper-covered pizza a tray. There is not a single grease-spot from the fries. The burgers are also very good and cooked to order and their "green fries", grilled asparagus, are delicious. The burgers are a bit pricey, the fries and asapargus are steals.
re: monkeyrotica
thank you for that potato description - I laughed out loud (so much that I had to give in and spell it out, LOL)!
as for the earlier post from seattle - seriously? Have you not been to Dick's Drive In? Hop to it man! Or down in Tacoma to Frisko Freeze? I'm just a tourist but that is some tasty goodness you have up there.
In N Out all the way, my first and only 5 guys experience when visiting jersey was mediocre at best. I'll drive through for consistency over hit & miss any day.
re: 585ray
Agree. I tried both In-N-Out and Five Guys -- numerous times. In-N-Out probably about 10 times, and Five Guys about 3 times. I definitely won't rank them on the same level. In-N-Out is much better in my opinion.
As mentioned in my other reply, given between Five Guys and McDonald, I am sorry to say that I personally would probably rather eat at McDonald. That is how much I dislike Five Guys. Both the burgers and fries are greasy messes.
I do give them credit for making large full size burger, but not the taste. I have a strong feeling that people who like Five Guys are college students who are on a very limited budget. In that case, yes, it is good.
re: Chemicalkinetics
5 Guys for a limited budget?? Are you crazy??
re: Davwud
Five Guys is more expensive than INO, but they definitely give more food for that money. I'm always tempted to get two Double Doubles when I go there, not only because I love them so much, but they are a bit on the smallish side.
re: EarlyBird
In-N-Out is healthier.
re: Chemicalkinetics
Hah! That's what I tell myself whenever I eat a Double Double!
re: EarlyBird
Forgetting about the fact i do not like the burger itself at 5Gs, as a consumer, I resent the fact they build in all the costs of the toppings into the price of a burger, whether you want them or not. The two two toppings I will often choose, cheese and bacon, you do pay for additionally on top of the included toppings.
re: EarlyBird
I hear you on being tempted to get 2 burgers at In-N-Out. Their burgers are so good but also because I refuse to eat their fries as I hate them. But I'm not a huge fan of fries in general. Now if only the closest In-N-Out wasn't 4 hours away.
re: rasputina
You know. When I was first introduced to In-N-Out, I really couldn't care much for its French fries. I liked its burgers on day one, but dislike the fries. They just tasted strange to me. On the other hand, I always like to give things a second or third trials. As time went on, the In-N-Out fries grew on me and I really liked them after about the third trial.
re: Chemicalkinetics
I'm not a huge fan of their fries as a standard order. A bit under cooked for my taste. Ordering them Light Well helps.
re: mike0989
<A bit under cooked for my taste>
You were talking about In-N-Out, right? Yeah, that is how I felt too the first time I tried. It later grew on me.
<Ordering them Light Well >
You can do that?
re: Chemicalkinetics
Yep, Light well they put them back in the fryer for a bit. Ordering Well takes them a bit too far for me. Standard order ofr me
Double Double, Animal Style
Fries - Liight Well
Rootbeer Float
re: EarlyBird
oh, no - just get the 3 x 3!! 3 patties, 3 cheese, good to go, very satisfying. (even better if you add their pickles) Or maybe in your case a 4 x 4? I could never manage that myself...
re: Davwud
Ha ha ha. Point taken. Yes, 5 Guys burgers are not that cheap.
re: KSlink
You are.
re: KSlink
Yo walk up to a counter, order and pay and wait at another counter for them to scream - and I mean SCREAM! - that your order is ready for pick up. Not a full service restaurant.
This should be Shack Shack . Shack Shack is the East Coast answer to In-n-Out.....not Five Guys. They even replaced Five Guys in Nationals Park with a Shack Shack.
I'm a long-time fan of I & O, but just tried the 5 Guys that opened here in NW Las Vegas. Had one of their small burgers. Pricy for what you get, and very meh, IMO. Juicy, but flavorless patty, kind of slimy grilled onions, disintegrating bun. I left half of it on the table and walked out. No need to return.
I finally tried Five Guys, in Eugene, Oregon. I had the double-patty cheeseburger. It's a fine burger, but the comparison with In-n-Out is meaningless, in my opinion. These burgers are not in the same category and so are not direct competitors. The FG has significantly more meat thanthe In-n-Out Double-Double, and costs twice as much. For that price it should be better. And FG is not drive-through.
The meaningful comparisons, in my opinion, are:
In-n-Out Double-Double vs. McDonald's Double Cheeseburger. These are similar size and configuration, and both available at a drive-through. There is no contest in my opinion.
Oh, and I can do without the much-touted FG fries. Think I'll skip them next time.
Five Guys Double Cheeseburger vs. Carl's Jr. Big Carl. Again, similar burgers. I haven't had the CJ, so have no opinion as yet.
We have both out in TO. FG is an order at the counter and wait for it to be called restaurant like INO. It does not have a drive through. There are bags of complementary peanuts to munch on while you wait for your order. So be forewarned if you have an allergy. FG has a smorgasbord of options you can add to your basic burger, most of which are free. Now how do they compare.
FG has a bigger patty, but it seems to be missing something. The flavor just isn't there for me. One of the options to add is bacon. That is always a plus for me.
FG fries are cut thicker than INO and cooked a bit crispier. They also use a better potato. Depending on the time of year, you are probably eating a Burbank russet instead of the more common Norkotah. They can be a bit of a grease bomb though.
As to value, FG is bit over twice as much. I can go in there and easily drop $12 - $15 on a burger, fries and drink. That will feed both my wife and I easily at INO.
re: mike0989
Agree with everything here. Maybe it's regional, but the FGs in our area always seem sort of bland - like the patty tastes sort of watery - not beef like?
We spent $20 something there (two adults, one toddler) this week, and I know that would have been better spent at INO.
I have not read any other posts here. In my view, there is a significant differences between the two. I love In-N-Out, but I dislike Five Guys. I really mean I dislike Five Guys. I mean I can eat their burgers if necessary, but between McDonald and Five Guys, I will probably walk to the McDonald.
re: Chemicalkinetics
What is the "significant difference" in your opinion?
To me the difference between the lies less in the quality of the burgers, but more in their business model.
In N Out is basically burger, cheeseburger, and fries (shakes and drinks notwithstanding).
Five Guys is burger, cheeseburger, bacon cheeseburger, and x2 with smaller sizes of each, plus hot dogs, veggie sandwiches and grilled cheese, and then they give you all those toppings to choose from.
One concentrates basically on one central item -- burger -- the other sort does a multitude of things.
re: ipsedixit
<What is the "significant difference" in your opinion?>
Taste, style, and philosophy.
<To me the difference between the lies less in the quality of the burgers>
Evidently, our opinions are different. As mentioned, I rank In-N-Out burgers noticeably better than McDonald burgers, but I prefer McDonald over Five Guys. Five Guys burgers have always been a greasy mess, with oil dipping out of the brown bag. Even if my tongue can ignore the taste difference, my GI tract cannot. Five Guys burgers never sat right in my stomach, and I often felt uncomfortable a few hours after eating one.
So, to me, the difference is more than their business models -- so say my tongue and my digestive system.
re: Chemicalkinetics
I'd like In-N-Out more if they offered mayo instead of that thousand island dressing spread. I don't care if they've been using it since 1948... give me mayo!
I live in Connecticut but have traveled to LA on many occasions. Having been to both; In-N-Out is my pick. Five Guys is expensive ($17) for 2 burgers and 1 small fries and 1 small drink. I love In-N-Out; something about sitting outside under a Palm tree at an In-N-Out isw the best...
I tried Five Guys for the first and last time the other night. Got an order of four burgers and two large orders of fries to go (one with the Cajun seasoning). The burger was unimpressive to me, the bun does have disintegration issues, but the fries were much more to my liking v. In-N-Out's flaccid version. But the deal-breaker for me was the smell in my car. I made the order to go, did the five-minute drive home, and fed the family. I had to move my car later, and noticed the greasy-fastfood smell had entrenched itself into my car's interior. The odor had some strange meaty off-smell as well. I left the windows open for an hour, only to find the smell had not dissipated. This smell continued to linger in my car after repeated attempts to drive it out by cruising on the freeway with my windows open. It's been five full days now and I can still smell remnants of the odor. I'm going to try fabric freshener, and if that doesn't do it, it's going in for an upholstery scrubbing. I've never experienced this kind of harsh odor with such a lengthy half-life before. What's the deal?
re: bulavinaka
5G fries are notoriously greasy. The grease probably saturated the bag and soaked into the upholstry. The fact that they seal their carryout bags adds to the moisture buildup. As for the "meaty, off-smell," There are numerous threads discussing issues of "skunky" meat at 5G. I live not too far from the original Five Guys in Fairfax, VA. There are 4 shops within a 15 minute drive, only one of which serves consistently decent burgers/fries. The other three are so woefully inconsistent, I've pretty much given up on them.
re: monkeyrotica
The bags were fortunately on a weather-resistant floormat. But the smell saturated my car. Thanks for
the info - fortifies my resolve to never go back.
re: bulavinaka
This sounds like a "Seinfeld" episode where the valet with B.O. wrecks Jerry's car.
re: EarlyBird
Strictly a guess on my part, but I'm thinking it's possibly the still hot oil vapors wafted into the air then stuck to the car's cool inner surfaces of the car. The surfaces are the windows, dash and door surfaces. Perhaps a bit of windex and paper towels might lessen the smell. Years ago I knew a heavy smoker and the oils from the cigarettes left a brownish haze and smell inside his car. Good luck and thanks for the warning. I rarely eat burgers so I haven't had the inclination to try Five Guys (yet).
re: EarlyBird
My 13-year old son is a big fan of Seinfeld via reruns. He mentioned to me. I thought it was funny at first, thwn started to fear the same fate for my car as Jerry's. :-(


text:
Prepare for perfection, as you arrive at the Palms Atlantis Dubai Hotel, one of Dubai's finest properties, built on a man-made island that has captured the world's imagination with its magnificent scale and ingenuity. On the first day of touring enjoy a Dubai city tour, and experience the modern and ancient wonders of this remarkable area, only to be followed in the evening by a traditional dhow dinner cruise. Aquadventure Water Park, located inside of the Palms, boasts fantastic waterslides, wave pools, lazy rivers, and basically everything one would want to do, during this full day of aquatic excitement. Your next day, begins where the previous ended at Aquadventure Water Park, as you enter the ancient, mysterious world of Atlantis, at the Lost Chamber Aquarium and Exhibition. Inside, explore the mystery surrounding this lost city, whilst weaving through underwater aquariums and exhibits, enjoy the picturesque sea-life as it swims above, and around you. After the lost chamber is yet another tour highlight, a live dolphin experience at Dolphin Bay. Jump into the water with the dolphins and there experienced trainers for some interactive in-sight into the life of these magnificently intelligent creatures. The next morning you will head out to Hatta, for a fun day of sand-dunning, sand boarding, skiing, and camel riding. A shopping tour is planned for the next day, providing the perfect opportunity to grab some gifts for friends, family, and most importantly yourself.
Upon arrival a representative will escort you through a special fast track clearance through all arrival formalities. Your representative will also assist you at the baggage belt area and provide you with a visa or other essential documents.
A representative will meet you upon your arrival into Dubai, and provide a transfer you to your hotel.
To experience the ancient city tour of Dubai, our route takes us past the highest buildings in the Middle East. After a short break by the Creek we arrive to the oldest part of the city, Bastakia where old wind-towered houses of wealthy merchants are still to be seen. Close by we visit the fascinating Dubai Museum in the Al Fahidi Fort, which has been there almost for two centuries defending the settlers of early days. We continue our tour through material market taking a closer look at the wind-towers on our way to Abras, local water taxis that will take us across the Creek to the area of spice and gold souks. As the final destination of this four hour tour we will walk through the bustling alleys of these souks being amazed by mystical aromas of numerous spices and the breath-taking amount of dazzling jewelry varying from traditional to the latest designs at amazingly affordable prices displayed by almost 200 shops. This tour includes a private vehicle and driver for transfers to sites and return trip to hotels.
Tonight your driver will pick you up and transfer you for an unforgettable evening cruise along the Dubai Creek on board a traditionally decorated Dhow. A sumptuous buffet dinner will be served including continental and Pan-Asian dishes. Soft drinks and mineral water are included. Experience the atmosphere of Dubai by night accompanied by Arabic music. The cruise takes approximately two hours.
Splash right into the largest and most exciting water theme park in the Middle East! Aquaventure is overflowing, with 42 acres, master blasters, speed slide, rivers, rapids, lush tropical landscapes and access to a private beach. Expect to get wet! 27.5m tall and 61m long, from the top of the Ziggurat rock, the Leap of Faith catapults riders into a transparent tunnel running through a sharkfilled lagoon. On the Shark Attack, journey to the mysterious core of the Ziggurat through dark twisting tunnels, before being thrust through the shark-filled lagoon. Glide along the interconnected waterways & beaches and be brave to dare The Rapids. Or, enjoy the leisurely tidal effect of Torrent River. The largest family play-structure in the region, 10 slides, 2 dumping buckets, rope-bridges, water jets and climbing frames - will keep younger guests excited and amused all day long.
Discover the lost world of Atlantis and explore a labyrinth of elaborately themed chambers. Here, you will discover a remarkable array of marine life, forgotten artifacts and mysterious scripts. Over 20 fresh and seawater marine exhibits include piranha, arapaima, moon jellies, giant grouper, lionfish and much more. No place keeps that much underwater mystery, as The Lost Chambers of Atlantis!
Enjoy a private tour of Abu Dhabi, with visits to a selection of carefully-chosen highlights of the UAE's lovely capital; from the remarkable buildings featuring some of the most stunning architecture to be found anywhere, to glimpses into the past. Soak up Abu Dhabi's unique blend of culture and fine traditional arts and crafts in the oriental markets and handicrafts centre. Enter a world where Islamic designs and elements feature modern architecture, blending the new with ancient traditions of the East and the West, in this city where the glorious greens of its gardens vie with the blues of the sea and sky. This tours makes visits to sites and monuments which include the Heritage village, Grand Mosque, Al Hosn Fort, and Dates Market. This tour takes approximately 5 hours. With roundtrip transfer time, please consider this as a full day tour.
With a backdrop of huge sand dunes, this trip is an unforgettable one for the fun seekers! This 4 hours trip initially takes us to Hatta, where we make a stop near the huge sand dunes dominating the scene. Here we experience the thrill of mono – skiing down the high dunes, after which light refreshments and soft drinks will be served. Before returning to the city, guests can enjoy dune bashing and Camel riding en route. From 09:00 to 12:00
This is the tour where you "shop till you drop"! including visit to shopping Malls like Bur Juman, Al Ghurair and Deira City Center the biggest shopping mall in Dubai with more than 300 shops. We will take you to Al Fahidi Street which is also called the Electronics Street and the Naif souk with abundance of textiles adds color to the trip and tests your bargaining skills. Dubai Golf souk, which proves Dubai as the "City of Gold", is the place where to buy some of the finest and purest gold at competitive prices with a dazzling array of international designs attracting our attention!
Experience a unique mix of fun and luxury! Enjoy a delicious BBQ dinner during the magnificent sunset of the Arabian Gulf on board of our Catamaran Ocean Voyager 64".
A private vehicle with driver will provide a transfer between the airport and hotel.
Atlantis is the majestic focal point of Palm Jumeirah, a man-made island that has captured the world's imagination with its magnificent scale and ingenuity. From the moment of arrival, you're immersed in a dazzling world of imagination, pleasure and luxury. The resort offers relaxation and thrills for couples and families alike, including a landmark hotel, unique marine habitats, an exhilarating water park, pristine white beaches, world-class cuisine, indulgent spa and cosmopolitan boutiques. To stay or visit is to live out dreams amidst warm Arabian seas.
Egypt to India
Kirsten Boucher ,
November 04, 2013
"I want to tell you what a great trip you arranged for us. We are having an amazing time and have very good guides. "
Egypt to India
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October 29, 2013
"I wanted to write to you this week to express my sincere thanks for the trip of a lifetime to India. My son, David, and I had the most incredible time in the Golden Triangle, thanks to you! The entire tour went without a hitch. We saw so many attractions on our short journey. We were enamored with the Indian culture, architecture and artistry. The hotels were fantastic, like you promised. The hospitality was unmatched. We appreciated the Kensington staff who met us at the airport and at each destination, and made sure that our checkouts went smoothly, as well."
Egypt to India
Sharon Lombardi ,
November 04, 2013
"Bhutan guide and driver were excellent...loved them so much!"
Egypt to India
Deborah Eastland ,
October 29, 2013
"My husband and I have just returned from the trip of a lifetime in Egypt. The sites were amazing and overwhelming. Everything was as promised. We had the most amazing pyramid view and Nile view from our hotels. Our itinerary included the most magnificent sites and we were accompanied by the most informative and friendly people. I highly recommend visiting Egypt. It is totally safe. Thank you to everyone at Kensington for this experience. It was so beyond our expectations!"
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Arnold Levine ,
August 30, 2013
"Thank you so much for everything.
You planned an outstanding trip that met all our interests and requirements.
Another wonderful tailored vacation by Kensington. I've completed the survey, but wanted to let you know personally how thankful we are to you."
Egypt to India
Carolann MacGregor ,
June 14, 2013
"I'm back and I had an AMAZING trip from beginning to end – trip of a lifetime to be sure. Aseem, I wanted to thank you for all your help, advice and fantastic planning for this trip. The itinerary, accommodations and guides were phenomenal! As a single woman travelling alone, I have to be willing to get on that plane and have the faith there will be dependable, competent people at the other end for me when I arrive. And with both of my Kensington trips, my hopes were surpassed. I wouldn't have changed a single thing about this trip."
Egypt to India
Mark Hickman ,
June 26, 2013
"Mohammed, our main guide throughout this itinerary was excellent and made sure every part of our experience was safe and entertaining. He often called ahead when we arrived at our next destination to talk to us by cell phone about our arrival and safety...we greatly appreciated his expertise and professionalism. Likewise, Mohammed (our driver in Cairo) became a good friend and was kind and courteous throughout.
The other guides during the trip....Sam in Luxor during the Nile trip and Samya in Sharm....could not have been any better. Great people, excellent guides and travel companions. I will think about them and this entire trip with great fondness. I will surely recommend Egypt and the Sinai to others who are considering a trip to the middle east in the future. With so much bad press lately, it was reassuring to have these people planning our every move and making things feel secure, inspiring and entertaining."
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Elisabeth Greene ,
April 19, 2013
"Everything was extremely smooth and really appreciated how everything was taken care.The hotels were wonderful and the Taj Mahal exceeded her expectations and was very nice."
Egypt to India
Angela Gentile ,
April 02, 2013
"Just a note of heartfelt thanks for organizing such a wonderful adventure to Jordan for MaryAnn and me. Our time in Jordan was spectacular and each day full of endless blessings. Our guide, Zaid Sakarneh, was kind, professional, intelligent and embraced each day with a fresh passion that was contagious. Thank you for all that you did to ensure we had a week full of memories that will last a lifetime!
Egypt to India
Lilly and Roy Brown ,
April 05, 2013
"We were very happy with the trip,and would very highly recommend our travel agent to every one.They delivered all that we wanted and also what they promised.We saw all the pyramids,temples and other ancient ruins both in Egypt and also Jordan.. even rode a camel,did horseback riding and enjoyed floatingin the salty Dead Sea."
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
Projections and reflections from the San Francisco LinuxWorld
Virtual visions brought vigor to the San Francisco LinuxWorld. This year's gala featured data centers, super heros, and our very own Linux Pro Magazine booth.
San Francisco is always an important moment on the LinuxWorld calendar, and vendors and community groups save big announcements for the show. Although the excitement level probably peaked a few years ago, this year's LinuxWorld SF was just as interesting and probably better attended than last year's event. LinuxWorld shared the space with IDG's Next Generation Data Center show. The data center theme used to seem dry and remote for the everyday IT crowd, but new technologies have brought the topic to the foreground, and the two conferences co-existed with surprising harmony.
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TOR Network Isn't So Anonymous
A new study says it is possible to unmask 81% of TOR users.
.NET Goes Open Source
Redmond joins the revolution by turning the .NET Core Runtime into a GitHub project.
Drupal Advisory Unleashes a Torrent of Attacks
Users only had 7 hours to update before the intrusions started.
HTML5 Gets Promoted to a Standard
It's official: The new web arrives
Linus Addresses Criticism for Harsh Language
Kernel king admits his tone has alienated volunteers, but says the demands of the process require directness.
New SSL Attack Lets a Malicious Listener Steal Session Cookies
New flaw in an old encryption scheme leaves the experts scrambling to disable SSL 3
Leading Open Source Coder Rants about Rants
Lennart Poettering wants to change the way Linux developers talk to each other.
HP Splits into Two Companies
Enterprise giant frees itself from ink and home PCs (and visa versa).
Mozilla Labs Shuts Down
Mozilla's product think tank sinks silently into history.
Internet Giants Launch Collaboration to Improve Open Source
TODO group will focus on open source tools in large-scale environments.


text:
On a cool Saturday morning in March 2000, Lewis Gravitt and his wife, April, were arguing in their Chattanooga home. Things were so bad, they were seriously considering going their separate ways.
He was a very angry man, she said later. You never knew when he would snap and hurt someone. "Sorry" was just not enough anymore.
But Gravitt knew where his anger came from; he had known for 11 years.
"Sit down," Gravitt told her that morning. "What I'm fixing to tell you, I don't know how you're going to take it or what it's going to do, but what I'm fixing to tell you I've never told anybody."
"Do you remember Brian Barnes?" he asked her.
"Yeah," she said.
One of April's friends had dated Barnes in the mid-'80s. They all used to hang out together.
"I'm the one that killed him," he said.
Police didn't even know Barnes was dead. All they knew was he was missing and had been since 1989.
The same day that Gravitt confessed to his wife, Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson received a cell phone call as he was leaving a funeral.
"I just got to meet with you," Ray Biddy, a long-time acquaintance, said on the other end, urgency in his voice. "I have a man here ... who is telling us about a murder he committed about 11 years ago and he's wanting to confess to you and only you and, furthermore, he wants to take you and show you where he buried him."
For Wilson, it sounded unbelievable.
"Eleven years after a murder, how often does someone come forward and confess to it without being prodded, especially then go and actually prove there's a body there?" the sheriff asked, sitting in his Walker County office for a recent interview.
"It was a very strange meeting," Wilson said. "Maybe that's one-in-a-career type of thing."
* * * * *
Title: The "Paperman"Lewis Gravitt, a Hays State Prison inmate, has become know for an unique talent. He's the "Paperman." Gravitt makes just about anything, a deer, a piano, a carousel, out of compressed, wrinkled paper.
Inside a small gray room, Gravitt works for hours at a time, thinking, measuring, cutting and gluing.
The Paperman — as everyone knows him — sits on a white plastic chair with his supplies on a plain plastic table.
He has soft blue eyes behind bifocals, short hair and a trimmed mustache. Tattooed unicorns and skulls start at his wrists and disappear under his shirt sleeves. As he holds the safety scissors it's easy to notice the faded, tattooed letters on his fingers, but they're hard to read. Gravitt said they're something he would get rid of if he could.
With callused, dry hands, he takes a paint brush, dips it into a red Folger's plastic can filled with Elmer's glue, then spreads the glue out on cardboard, before he adds a layer of brown paper. He explains that it hides the corrugation of the cardboard, making it easier to give it the texture needed for the life-size deer or parade floats he makes for nonprofit groups and schools.
His creations border on the extraordinary. A spinning tabletop carousel, each horse striking a different pose. A Noah's ark about 3 feet long, the animals two by two, no bigger than a thumb and finely detailed. A full-size upright piano, so real-looking you're tempted to walk over and play.
For Gravitt, 46, folding and twisting the paper not only allows him to make something beautiful. As he glues and paints and designs, he also travels.
Sometimes he sticks close to home and goes fishing or hunting in Ellijay, Ga. Sometimes he lets his imagination fly and visits places that have never been or real places he may never get to see.
Because as soon as he leaves that room, the Paperman is again inmate 460297 at Hays State Prison, a close security facility in Trion, Ga., where he is sentenced to spend the rest of his life.
* * * * *
Moments after talking to Biddy that day in 2000, Wilson got in his car and drove for about 30 minutes to a ranch-style house in Rossville built in the 1960s.
As he walked into the house, through the living room, everything was quiet, as if someone had died.
In the kitchen, he found Lewis Gravitt — Junior or J.R. as friends and family call him — sitting on one end of the kitchen table. Most of Gravitt's family — his mother, stepfather, wife, in-laws and brother — sat or stood near him. Gravitt asked him to have a seat and offered Wilson a cup of coffee.
"If I tell you what I'm wanting to tell you," Gravitt said, "you have to promise you ain't going to put the handcuffs on me."
"OK, we have an agreement," the sheriff said.
Can a person in Georgia go to the electric chair for murder? Gravitt asked.
"They could, but normally there had to be aggravating circumstances to the murder," Wilson said.
Gravitt told the sheriff he was thinking about the killing every night when he lay his head on the pillow and every morning when his feet hit the floor.
They talked for about an hour and, as darkness set in and the temperature started to drop, heading for lows in the 30s, the sheriff decided it was time for Gravitt to prove his story. He wanted to see the body.
A five-minute drive took them to a home on Thomas Drive, named after one of Gravitt's brothers. The home no longer belonged to the Gravitts so the sheriff had to speak to the new owners, explaining what was going on: They needed to look for a body they believed was buried behind the house.
Gravitt leading the way, the group — which included some of Gravitt's family members, the sheriff and other law enforcement officials — walked down a trail into a wooded area. After about 150 steps, Gravitt stopped, looking at one side, then the other. He pointed to a slight indentation in the ground.
They started to dig about 8:30 p.m. The father of a Walker County deputy lived nearby and let them borrow a mini-excavator.
It was getting colder as they began to dig, Gravitt pacing back and forth, fidgety and nervous, unlike the calm Gravitt that Wilson had talked to back at the house.
After a couple of scoops, a piece of yellow fabric popped up. Picking up shovels and picks in the cold, misty rain that had started to fall, investigators dug the rest of the 3-foot-deep hole by hand.
By 1:45 a.m., they had a skull and longer bones, possibly from the legs and arms, a yellow nylon blanket, 11 bullet casings and a confessed murderer behind bars.
"It is my belief that, if Junior Gravitt had not confessed to the murder and showed us where the body was, to this day Brian Barnes would be in that grave and would still be missing," Wilson said. "There's just absolutely no way he would have ever been found."
Gravitt told Wilson he had killed Barnes to protect his family. The motive was never proven, Wilson said, but it's hard not to believe what Gravitt said.
"When a man comes forward and tells you he murdered someone and tells you where the body is at, why wouldn't he tell the whole truth?" Wilson asked.
"The fact remains he did shoot him and did bury his body," he said.
* * * * *
In prison, Gravitt won't discuss details of the murder, although he accepts the blame.
"It's my fault, it's nobody's fault but my own."
He hints about the pressure that steadily built in him after keeping the secret for 11 years.
"I was just through with it," he said. "I did what I did to protect my family. It was an unfortunate situation."
You could say he's in prison on a "voluntary basis," he said.
"This is a small price for me to pay."
Gravitt acknowledged that he made choices in life that brought him to where he is now -- dropping out of school, running away from home, stealing, smoking marijuana and snorting cocaine.
At a time when he was supposed to be playing football and baseball like other young boys, he was working in the hayfields and around the house in Chickamauga, Ga., a community of about 2,000 people at the foot of Lookout Mountain.
"My childhood was taken away from me by the responsibilities that were placed upon my shoulders at such a young age," he wrote in a letter from prison.
But at the same time, those responsibilities taught him a lot, and he came to feel school was in the way. He dropped out of Rossville Junior High School in the seventh grade — and that's when the bad choices began.
He married at 20 and ran away from his responsibilities in Georgia by moving to Texas. His two children, now 24 and 25, still live in Texas. He has watched them grow up through photos.
He divorced his first wife and married April, who already had two children.
Even as a child, he could draw and build things from scratch, a skill that helped when he worked construction in the late 1970s.
Whenever he was depressed or angry as an adult, he returned to those childhood habits. First it was greeting cards, using cardboard from the covers on notebooks. But he made things only to leave them where they lay, serving no purpose.
"I had found myself living a life where nothing else mattered," he said. "I had learned the process of running from my problems only to have them in your face at whatever known destination I arrived at."
Sometimes that destination was prison. In the '90s, he spent four years behind bars for attempted armed robbery, missing the chance to see his father one last time before he died.
Prison "cost me everything in life," he wrote.
* * * * *
In the summer of 1989, 25-year-old Lewis Gravitt pulled his motorcycle into a Golden Gallon in Rossville, needing gas. An old friend of his, Brian Barnes, walked up to him, saying hello, asking for a place to stay the night.
He and Barnes had known each other for a long time. At one point they were neighbors. They ran with the same crowd and were friendly, so Gravitt didn't think twice about letting him crash at Gravitt's parents' home in Chickamauga.
The men rode off across the state line to Soddy-Daisy, to the home where Barnes was staying. There, Gravitt waited outside while Barnes grabbed his clothes, coming out with a small, black duffel bag.
Once they were back in Chickamauga, Gravitt set up a tent for Barnes behind the house because he knew his mother didn't like having people stay over.
Barnes told Gravitt: "I want to show you something."
From the black bag he took out a big stack of money — $150,000 — and a bag of cocaine.
"Man, what did you do? Where did you get that?" Gravitt asked.
"I got it from where you took me to get my clothes," Barnes said, but his attitude belied his concern.
Barnes made several phone calls. He told Gravitt someone already was looking for them and they had to leave. Gravitt didn't know what to do or what to think, so when Barnes suggested Florida, he agreed.
During their time in Florida, they did odd jobs. Before they even had left Georgia, Barnes had gotten rid of most of the money; only about $4,000 was left. Gravitt didn't know what Barnes did with the cash and never asked.
A couple of weeks later, the pair rode back to Georgia because Barnes said he was due in court in Hamilton County, although he never went.
About two months passed, and Gravitt stopped worrying about the drugs, the money and the men who were supposedly after them. He chalked it up as just one more headache that came with the lifestyle he still couldn't clean up. But it was over and done, he thought.
He was wrong.
Gravitt was outside his house when a car pulled into the driveway. He didn't think much of it because people often used the driveway as a turnaround, but the car stopped and a man got out.
"I've been looking for you," the man said, according to court testimony and the sheriff. He was heavyset, wearing a suit and looked to be in his late 40s.
"Who are you?" Gravitt asked.
The man ignored the question. "Where's Brian?" he asked.
"He's right down there, but who are you?" Gravitt repeated.
Another vehicle pulled up and the doors flew open, a group of men swarming out. They soon had Barnes and Gravitt in the cars, driving to an unknown house.
Once there, the men tied Gravitt and Barnes up, demanding to know where the money was, where the drugs were. They beat them for the information.
Barnes didn't talk. Gravitt didn't know.
"I didn't mean to get you mixed up in this," Barnes said while they lay there, tied up and bleeding.
"It's too late, you know," Gravitt replied.
The man in charge told Barnes and Gravitt they had two weeks to come up with the money — the original $150,000 plus $100,000 for the cocaine.
Barnes called everyone he knew, trying to come up with the cash. They managed to scrape up several hundred dollars.
A couple of days before the due date, the men repeated their routine, including the beatings. Only this time they had a recent photograph of Gravitt, his brother Michael and mother, JoAnn, taken outside their home. They shoved the picture in Gravitt's face and said that's where they were going to start if they didn't get the money.
Gravitt snapped.
"Man, I ought to kill you my damn self for getting me in this," he said as he turned and looked at Barnes.
"That'd be the only thing that would convince me that you are telling the truth that you didn't have anything to do with it," the man in charge told him.
They were let go again, but for Gravitt it was more than his own life on the line. They headed back to their tent behind Gravitt's mother's home.
"You wasn't really serious back there, was you?" Barnes asked as they sat inside the tent, plotting their next move.
"We just need to find a way out of this; we need to find a way out of this," Gravitt told Barnes.
Gravitt knew it was impossible to get the money in time and he couldn't run away without taking his family with him, something else that was impossible. How would he explain? Where would they go?
He left the tent and headed for the house. Inside, he pulled his grandfather's .22-caliber Remington from its case. The family rifle had been passed down to his father.
Back at the tent, Barnes lay inside, propped on his side. When he saw Gravitt coming, rifle in hand, he started to sit up.
"You know we can't come up with the money, and you know what they're going to do," Gravitt said.
"Yeah," Barnes said.
"I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry," Gravitt told his friend. Then he fired the rifle seven times, each shot ending with a click as he let go of the trigger.
He shot Barnes in the head and upper torso, but as he headed back to the house something told him Barnes was still alive. Gravitt reloaded and put another seven bullets into his 23-year-old friend.
No one was at home at the time and no one else heard the shots, or if they did, they never said anything.
At some point, the men had been given a phone number by the leader of their abductors, a way to get in touch. Gravitt dialed the number and, about an hour later, the man in the suit showed up.
Holding a gun, he walked to the tent and peeked inside, poking Barnes' body with his foot. He turned to Gravitt and pulled out the photos of his family, looked at them, then put them back in his pocket.
"I'm going to keep these for future reference," he said.
"What future reference?" Gravitt asked.
"Future reference — you don't know me."
"I don't know you," Gravitt said.
The man got in his car and drove away.
Eleven years later, testifying in his own defense at his trial, Gravitt never identified the man. He said he had never seen him before and couldn't remember his phone number or the location of the house where he and Barnes were taken. Even if he did, he said, he wouldn't tell.
"He got in his car and left. Last I've seen, last I've heard from them," he told investigators. "And I'm laying here with a body, that I just took this man's life away from, and I've got to get rid of this body and I don't know what to do."
* * * * *
It took 11/2 hours in 2000 to select the jury that eventually found Gravitt guilty of murder, felony murder, aggravated assault, possession of a weapon during the commission of a crime and concealing the death of another in 1989.
On Dec. 7, following the two-day trial, the judge sentenced him to life plus 10 years in prison.
His wife, April, didn't want to testify and wasn't forced to.
Barnes' mother was dying of cancer at that time, but his sister, Victoria Hawley, who lived in Atlanta, was present and testified. On the stand, she said she doubted they will ever know the whole truth.
"I guess all we have is his word and whatever evidence is presented, but I don't know that I'll ever know the full story," she testified.
Hawley visited Gravitt in jail and wrote to him. She forgave him, she said in court, but it didn't mean she was OK with it.
And she didn't hate him for it.
"Hate and anger don't bring my brother back, and so I've tried very hard to find a way to deal with all of this. And trying to forgive him is one of the coping mechanisms I've tried to use because I've learned that when you hate someone and you're angry with them, it doesn't hurt them, it hurts you." she said during the trial.
* * * * *
When Gravitt started to serve his life sentence in Hays State Prison, he didn't talk to anyone and kept to himself. He just wanted to serve his time and survive.
In prison, he returned once again to his childhood ability to make something out of anything.
"He has always been artistic; he always worked with his hands," his sister Ceci Ledford recently said as she toured the Victorian Christmas displays in Summerville, Ga., that her brother helped make with other inmates.
He knew wood would be hard to come by in prison, so he thought of nothing more than paper.
About six years ago, while he was working inside his cell on an art project, a woman yelled his name.
At the other side of the hall was LeThicia Davis, a counselor at the prison who was told by a guard she needed to recruit Gravitt for an art program she was starting at the prison. The Faith and Character-Based Program was designed for inmates who want to change, and a component of it is art.
Initially, Gravitt refused to participate.
He was a man who had a problem with authority and a problem with people, a life with no purpose and a life sentence. He had no plans to stay in the program.
In the end, he lost to the power of the woman's persuasion.
As he worked in the program, he began to realize he was just the type of person officials were trying to help, the type of person who had problems dealing with the real world, who would wind up back in prison if he ever got out.
That's where the old Lewis Gravitt met the new Lewis Gravitt.
"This is where things started to matter to me again; this is where the separation of the old Lewis Gravitt, the one with no purpose in life except to do his time, became the new Lewis Gravitt, with a lot of purpose in life," he wrote.
* * * * *
During the six years Gravitt has been in the arts program, he has received more certificates than he ever did while a free man.
He earned his GED this year at age 46. During that time, he had to put his passion aside, he said, and concentrate on his studies with the help of tutors.
His mother came to his graduation.
She had always said, "Boy, how I wish I had seen you graduate," Gravitt said, and he was able to dedicate that day to her.
His family believes he killed Barnes because he had no choice.
"It's not something he wanted to do," said Ledford. "He's had a tough life."
She hopes her brother someday will create art as a free man. He comes up for parole in 2014.
"I just want him out," she said. "I'm extremely proud of him."
Gravitt said he used to talk to his family every week but because of the economy they've had to cut back on the calls.
His son visited him once in prison, but he hasn't seen his daughter in 10 years.
Sometimes he works on projects to get lost, to spend time in his mind with his five grandchildren, whom he has yet to meet.
To feel closer to them, he created a bright red board game. Teach-N-Play is a Monopoly-size board game that teaches children the names of the planets, the numbers, colors, how to save money. The game was invented and made by Gravitt.
He said a wealthy man offered him a lot of money for the game but Gravitt turned him down.
"For me, it's priceless," he said. "I made it for my grandbabies; it is not for sale."
In prison, Gravitt turns the pages of a brown photo album. He takes a picture of every project he works on and, when the album is full, he sends it to his family.
He can look at a picture and remember how he felt when making the artwork, remember where he escaped to in his mind. He might have been at Disneyland or talking to his grandkids.
When he creates art, Gravitt can spend time with his children, his sisters, his brothers. Because as he meticulously turns paper into art, he's no longer a prisoner, at least in his mind.
Staff writer Alison Gerber contributed to this story.
Learn more about the arts program at Hays State Prison
Follow Perla Trevizo on Twitter
EDITOR'S NOTE: Parts of this story about the crime and events leading up to it were taken from Walker County Superior Court records and Lewis Gravitt's interview at the Walker County Sheriff's Office on March 20, 2000. Gravitt's wife, April, declined through a relative to comment.
Perla Trevizo joined the Chattanooga Times Free Press in 2007 and covers immigration/diversity issues and higher education. She holds a master's degree in newswire journalism from Universidad Rey Juan Carlos in Madrid, Spain, and a bachelor's degree in political science from the University of Texas. In 2011 she participated in the Bringing Home the World international reporting fellowship program sponsored by the International Center for Journalists, producing a series on Guatemalan immigrants for which she ...
Was it necessary to include the information about the Victim? Seems very insensitive to the family. While the story of the murder is very dramatic, is it necessary to relive the murder?
And come on... Soddy Daisy drug dealers in suits? I think I saw that in a movie somewhere... I bet that the only thing this cold blooded murderer "had no choice" over was making up a barely believable story to let his family down slowly. How heroic that he killed a friend and is now throwing him under the bus 20+ years later.
The victim was MIA for 11 years and the killer has only spent 10 behind bars. His poor family has to watch him behind bars bettering himself and the victim's mother had to worry through her last decade of life about what wet ditch her son was laying in. What an amazing man this killer is.
Thanks for highlighting such an upstanding pillar of the community.
Seems to me there are many victims here...but i'd rather call them survivors, those who lived...certainly the life lost to death is a tragedy...so is the life lost to greed, fear, isolation, and the guilt of murder...and the courts and public safety staff and jurors whose hearts had to face this horror too...and all the family members and friends affected...
but now...come on...of course...there couldn't be drug dealers in Soddy Daisy in suits...good grief -- this was '89 -- he could have exaggerated enough by saying "shoes" -- yes? is that the point? i suppose if judging another human isn't enough, stereotyping an entire community might be more satisfying...? really?
i think the point of the story is (to me) that there was a tragic horror that came to the lives of two young men and their families through bad choices...this young man -- the killer -- and his friend -- didn't have the courage or the faith to go to people who might have helped -- law enforcement -- and the rest is history.
sounds like they both came to regret...and the one who survived had a conscience and turned himself in to be punished. doesn't sound too cold-blooded in the end. fairly powerful by itself. also that he has tried to contribute to the world since. better than not to try, i'd say.
no, not such an upstanding pillar of the community. right on that one. i'm not going to defend that. but maybe too not the poster child for the most evil folk out there either. There are children out there now slipping off the sidewalks into all kinds of hells with all kinds of horrors...and "the first one's always free." i don't need to judge all these children. i was one a long time myself.
We have to be present, be available, be ready, be wise, be merciful, and be connected. Let's pray for ourselves and each other and i will personally be grateful for many blessings i have been granted. let us practice watchfulness, protectiveness, justice, and mercy. Let's be neighbors and family and citizens and let's do this together.
I follow this guy who says if we have hatred in our hearts we are guilty of murder. So i have been guilty but i have been forgiven because He took on my guilt and punishment for it. may He bring us all His peace this season.
I was once a drug user. I've run all over the streets from Nashville to Knoxville. Man, the story you're telling don't add up for this area. You need to just tell the real story. At the very least, I know the dude wasn't wearing a suit (if he existed) and I know it wasn't no $150k. Your "friend" couldn't have spread $146,000 of it around Soddy Daisy without being noticed. I know that. You can't spread that around Knoxville without someone noticing even by today's standards, unless Brian buried it, and if you were getting beat for it, I'm thinking he would have been willing to go dig it up and give it back instead of taking beatings for it. I think the real amount was $4000 to start with and maybe a few 8 balls and ya'll ;) headed to Florida to party on it, hoping it would be forgotten by the time you came back, but it wasn't. I think you were in on stealing it and maybe, just maybe it was originally Brian's idea and you just regretted having went along with it and killing him was your way out of it. But more likely that whole story is a pile of poo. You probably killed him over a girl or something, or maybe the two of you did something else and the only way to keep the secret was to silence the only other person that knew. I just hope Brian was the only one killed and you didn't kill him to keep him quiet about a previous killing you both were in on. Tell the whole story, man.
"This is where things started to matter to me again; this is where the separation of the old Lewis Gravitt...became the new Lewis Gravitt, with a lot of purpose in life," he wrote.
No, I think this is where you started to smell freedom via possible parole, and figured first off, you got away with murder, second, you told a big fish story that the jury swallowed, and third, if you looked like a really sorrowful, regretful killer, you could make them swallow another one and get you outta there.
This is my last comment...I think. The more I consider this story, the less it works. You couldn't go on the run without taking your family, but you could go off to Florida to party with Brian for several weeks.....that don't work either. I can do this all day - just pick holes in this fairy tale but I won't. What I will do is keep following this story and when your parole date comes up, make sure the parole board is asking you these same questions. I'm not even a cop, just have good street smarts and this story is like an old worn out pincushion full of holes.


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Fr. Robert Reed Prays the Holy Rosary | Regina Cleri
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Located in the heart of Boston's West End neighborhood, Regina Cleri is home to 53 senior priests who have devoted their lives in service to God and His Church in Boston. Together, these faithful men represent more than 2,800 years of ministry. Since 1964, our mission has been to provide senior priests with high quality, holistic care and a spectrum of services to meet their changing needs. Our goal is to nurture the spirit, body, and mind of our priests so they can continue living out their vocation.
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While many priests take a less active position in their senior years, they still fulfill an important role in enriching the spiritual life of their local community. Seventeen of our resident priests continue to serve as senior priests assisting at St. Joseph Parish next door or at any of the parishes they have served in the past. They celebrate Mass at parishes throughout the Archdiocese when called upon, bring Holy Communion to the homebound and sick, and serve as an ongoing source of wisdom and support to those they encounter. Senior priests at Regina Cleri also are on-call 24-hours a day at Massachusetts General Hospital, serving as a visible sign of God's presence among us during life's joys and sorrows. This ministry is valued deeply by patients and their families who turn to their priests during some of life's most critical moments when support is most needed.
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