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Do You Believe What the Media Tells You? — Survey of the Day
Credibility is pretty essential for the media. If folks don't believe what they read in the paper or see on the news, what's the point?
Credibility is pretty essential for the media. If folks don't believe what they read in the paper or see on the news, what's the point?
It's a question that is often asked when a season in coming to an end. Should the star players sit or continue playing?
Quick — name a sitting Supreme Court justice. If you can do that, congratulations. You're in the vast minority of Americans.
Laying the groundwork for a successful future should be reason enough for children to go to school — but for some districts with poor attendance rates, they've had to sweeten the pot.
It seems as though the media is treating the NFL preseason as it were the actual season. So why not just extend the regular season?
This will probably come as no surprise to any of you who watch 'Game of Thrones' or 'True Blood' but the Parents Television Council just released a study that found 76 incidents of full nudity during primetime hours, a 407% increase over 2011. That's a lot of nudity.
Considering that booze is one of the pillars of human civilization, it's kind of shocking how little we actually know about it....No, it's really not that shocking.
So, before you get too drunk to read this, let's knock down a few more common myths
Everywhere you go you see people that appear to have their cell phones physically attached to their ears and thumbs for fear that if don't stay glued to the godforsaken thing they just might miss out on something as important as a Facebook status update or the latest social commentary in the form of a meme.
If you are one of these people, the good news is, you are not alone.
According to a new survey from Gallup, 66 percent of adults drink alcohol, up from 64 percent last year.
But are these Americans who imbibe enjoying the occasional glass of wine or are they pounding beer after beer?
Welcome to the most important vote you'll cast in your lifetime. Until, of course, next week. It's time to vote for Babe of the Week!
Professional sports has been dealing with steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs for years. Would they still be dealing with it if there was a more severe penalty for being caught?
Thanks to the great recession more folks are living paycheck to paycheck than they were in rosier economic times.


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The site lists the largest tray as 17" x 14". It is in fact about 13" by 9". I was disappointed in that fact.
Cheap quality. Was a Christmas gift and could not return them. Picture did not portray the trays adequately.
I bought these less than 2 months ago, and they are already all BROKEN!!! Very disappointing, The first product I've bought from Overstock that I have been disappointed with. I have to go and buy new trays already.
They were a lot smaller than i thought, but very decorative and useful!
A little disappointed, quality seems on the not so good side.
Simply love these trays...they are perfect size for many uses. I was very happy when I opened box and saw the overall quality.
I purchased these as a gift for a friend of mine but I almost did not give them to her when I saw them. They are really attractive but they seem so delicate I was not sure they would be strong enough for use. I opted to give them to her and she absolutely loves them. I followed up with her a few weeks to confirm they were holding up well and she said they are.
This is more than just a food tray. It is a piece of art as well. it can be used for decoration as well as for serving food. You will love the color and the design. it is beautifully crafted. Buy it and buy more.
I sent this to a neighbor who has been very helpful.She loved the set; especially that the trays were different sizes. This is good for someone who entertains and wants lightweight trays to carry.
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subset: commoncrawl


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MDF molding can be installed faster and more easily than natural wood.
Try flexible polymer trim to fit around difficult curves, such as archways.
New digital and laser tools make trim and molding installation a breeze.
New methods of treating lumber call for fasteners that resist corrosion.
Projects by Professionals(at Pro Galleries)
Projects by People Like You (at Rate My Remodel)


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Today was the first of a two day run with Mercy Me. Tonight we closed the show, and they will close the show in Irvine. In the industry, it's what is called a co-bill. The great thing for fans is you get to see two headlining acts on the same stage, on the same night. The challenge is that both artists have to play shorter sets to accommodate each other time wise. The crew did a good job of changing over the stage quickly, and was able to get us an extra 5 minutes for the show. It wasn't a huge crowd, but they seemed to really be into the show. We did a few things in this show we haven't done in a bit, like a full version of Cry Out to Jesus.We had a good time hanging with the Mercy Me guys. The industry can tend to set us up to be competitive with each other. So, it was nice to hang out as friends.
[1] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/lift-your-face
[2] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/i-got-feeling
[3] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/rockstar
[4] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/sing-song
[5] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/call-my-name
[6] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/revelation
[7] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/cry-out-jesus
[8] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/surrender
[9] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/make-your-move
[10] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/god-wonders
[11] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/jesus-rides-subway
[12] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/tunnel
[13] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/creed
[14] http://www.thirdday.com/music/songs/otherside


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Air Force Lt. Col. Anthony Figiera talks about the pumping station at Langley Air Force Base. Built in 2005, the station is an infrastructure improvement made on base after Hurricane Isabel to make he base more resilient to the rising sea level and freque
No reportable accidents near the James River Bridge grid deck since studs were installed a year ago. Only one filed to VDOT over accidents.
Daily Press Entertainment Reporter Mike Holtzclaw with his local preview of weekend events.
Daily Press Sports Writer Marty O'Brien with his Bay Rivers Pick 5 Football Predictions
The Army's 53rd Transportation Battalion who specializes in the coordination of construction materials, equipment and supplies deployed today from Fort Eustis to West Africa to provide logistical support.
Ed Matz, president of North End Huntington Heights Preservation Association, discusses why the group wants the city to accept a historic house as a donation and turn the building into a museum.
Firefighters work the scene of a camper fire in the 100 block of Alberta Drive on Tuesday afternoon in Newport News.
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Funding problems with the Macksville Gift have been resolved.
Topics: athletics, regional, macksville-2447, coffs-harbour-2450, port-macquarie-2444
Nambucca council mounting campaign for a new District hospital
Topics: healthcare-facilities, local-government, regional-development, macksville-2447, port-macquarie-2444, coffs-harbour-2450
Nambucca Mayor Rhonda Hoban has warned the Council will oppose any move to shift court sittings in Macksville to Coffs Harbour.
Topics: courts-and-trials, local-government, state-parliament, macksville-2447, coffs-harbour-2450, port-macquarie-2444
Posted| Updated
Jack Archer, general manager of research and policy with the Regional Australia Institute, says census statistics show a steady flow of working age people are moving from the capital cities to regional Australia. He says anecdotal evidence suggests a large portion of those are people who left regional areas as young adults and have chosen to come back. Read more here.
Topics: population-and-demographics, regional, regional-development, community-development, rural, point-lonsdale-3225, macksville-2447, canberra-2600, melbourne-3000
Posted| Updated
There's a growing trend for people who've grown up in the country, then moved to the city, to return to their regional roots.
Topics: population-and-demographics, community-and-society, community-development, regional, regional-development, macksville-2447, point-lonsdale-3225, canberra-2600, melbourne-3000
A man has been charged with indecently assaulting a 13-year-old girl on the state's north coast.
Topics: sexual-offences, grafton-2460, macksville-2447, lismore-2480, coffs-harbour-2450
A joint effort by police and businesses is focused on cutting crime rates in Macksville
Topics: crime-prevention, police, small-business, local-government, macksville-2447, coffs-harbour-2450, port-macquarie-2444
Topics: weeds, macksville-2447
Topics: weeds, macksville-2447
Posted| Updated
A new weed discovered on the NSW Mid North Coast is undergoing identification.
Topics: weeds, environmental-management, macksville-2447
Police raid on rave party near Macksville leads to charges against three people
Topics: drug-offences, youth, police, regional, macksville-2447, coffs-harbour-2450, port-macquarie-2444
Topics: pest-management, agricultural-crops, research, macksville-2447
Tasmanian plant pathologist Dean Metcalf is working with the macadamia industry to find a biological control agent for the husk spot disease.
Topics: agricultural-crops, pest-management, research, macksville-2447
The macadamia industry is one step closer to a chemical free control for a major disease.
Topics: pest-management, agricultural-crops, vegetable-fruit-nuts, fruit, research, macksville-2447
Posted| Updated
Most parts of the Australian macadamia industry have had a tough year.
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, vegetable-fruit-nuts, macksville-2447
Peter and Nancy Zeck moved to the Nambucca Valley on the NSW Mid North Coast to start farming macadamias in the mid-90s. The couple is hoping that this year will be their best crop yet.
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, vegetable-fruit-nuts, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
Peter Zeck says there has been ups and downs in the macadamia industry, but he thinks it's improving.
Topics: vegetable-fruit-nuts, crop-harvesting, agricultural-crops, macksville-2447
Topics: vegetable-fruit-nuts, crop-harvesting, agricultural-crops, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
Topics: agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, macksville-2447
A decline in production has meant there have been less funds invested in research and development. The Australian Macadamia Society is looking at directing more of the grower levy towards R&D.
Topics: agricultural-marketing, agricultural-crops, crop-harvesting, research, macksville-2447


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Hotel Langkasuka is located in the heart of Kuah Town, just 10 minutes drive from the Kuah Jetty and 20 minutes drive from the Langkawi International Airport. Ample free parking and an on-site taxi base makes getting around easy!
Hotel Langkasuka Langkawi is connected to the Langkawi Parade Megamall, home to over 40 shops, 8 food and beverage outlets, a Cineplex and a grocery store offering a wide selection of duty-free goods.


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We were so excited to have Wittlebee join LA Startup Club and even more excited when they became our first sponsor!
If you aren't familiar with the service, Wittlebee is a monthly kid's clothing club, that delivers amazingly cute clothes to your doorstep, helping keep your little one stylin' and saving you time! Their team works tirelessly to make sure you get great clothes at a great price. They also work hard to help out their community, recently launching the "One for Onesie" program, delivering 1,000 onesies to Baby Buggy, a nonprofit that helps young mothers in need.
We really love Wittlebee and we're sure you will too!
Interested in sponsoring LA Startup Club? Let us know!
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Breaking the news was hard but I just jumped right to it after we sat on the couch after dinner. I started to cry first and he asked what was wrong and I said I need to let you know that I had an affair last year, its over now, but I want you to know about it Of course he was very sad and distraught. He wasnt angry and yelling but just kept asking why I would do this to him. He said there were some things that didnt sit well with him while I was in the affair but he gave me the benefit of the doubt and never questioned anything. I knew eventually if I kept up the A that eventually my husband would find out. Maybe because Id want him to so I could stop, Im not quite sure. My reasons for telling him though became that
1) If I thought he would divorce me because of this then I owed him that opportunity, instead of tricking him into being married to me forever and not knowing the truth.
2) I want our marriage to be better than before. It was getting before I told him the truth but I know eventually wed get into old ruts and be in the same place and I dont trust myself on what I might do. This way if we survive, then I do feel our marriage will be stronger.
3) He might find out at a later date that I cheated and then our chance of R would be harder and filled with more lies. OMs wife knows of the affair and while she hasnt said anything yet she may change her mind one day. Also I had so many lies going on who I was with and where that it was just a matter of time that one of my stories didnt add up to what I told him in the past and that may make him go into full question mode. Better to tell the truth now and start recovering or moving on.
Originally I was more leaning toward not ever telling him. It was my punishment to live with this burden of lies but after doing a lot of reading and thinking I decided that I do want to be happier in my life and he deserves the same and I felt that this was the best way. I was very scared though to say the least.
So its been 2 weeks now since I told him. He says he really wants to work things out. He cant imagine me not being in his life. I think he is still in shock. He is taking so much of the blame even though I keep telling him its me not him that needs to change. He feels extremely insecure right now which is to be expected. He has been to IC twice now to start to work through his feelings. His therapist was in shock with all the layers of lies and deceit in the story and said wow, that is really fucked up! yes it is and hard to believe that it all happened and happened so easily. For my husband the hardest part right now is the sex part. He keeps picturing me having sex with someone else. Any advice on how to start to get over those mind movies for him? The other thing is I had AP in our home on a number of occasions, sometimes for a few nights at a time. To me it just became about opportunity. At first I said he could never come over but that quickly changed when the opportunity came up. My husband feels very violated because of that. He cant imagine how a man could do that to another mans family. I told him I was the whore going into his house too though. Its messed up yes, but we are both messed up and took the opportunity for a warm house without thinking about anything or anyone else.
I am on my 4th therapist now. Trying to find the right fit. This new guy is more of a hard hitter and direct which is what I need. He told me happy people in marriages rarely cheat. There is something in your marriage that you were missing that led you to this. So while he says I do have personal things about me I need to work through, I also need to figure out where my marriage was not what I had wanted. I did have some ideas and he agreed that we need to look into that. I really thought I had a good marriage though but after taking a closer look I think Ive just existed in the marriage. Became numb. Not a bad marriage at all but not a fabulous one either.
About a week ago my husband said maybe I should move out for a bit, now he doesnt want me to but in the meantime I started looking for a place to stay. I do not want to tell family and friends at this point but will be hard if I dont sleep here. I found a situation that has a nice room, own bathroom in a ladies house that Im thinking of. Will this make R harder if I am not living at home? Part of me wants to move out to try to get me into reality more. I am having a hard time showing my husband that he is important and worth fighting for. I am still in the fog and missing the affair I think. I told my husband that I just need some time, that he and the kids are what I want but that I need to grieve also. I know that it probably isnt right for me to have feelings too but wanted him to know where I am at also if we are going to be completely honest. Its hard for him to understand which I do get. But I am not able to show and say to him what he needs right now which is making me question what it is that I really want. Part of me wants to be separated so that I can truly miss him and the kids and fight for them. Right now hes making it too easy for me to just be here, like everything is ok. I want to be able to tell my husband that hes the one I want completely but when I do its not very believable as I am wishy washy which I know is not good.
My husband did not ask for a lot of details about the affair. Not sure if that will change or not but I was surprised that he did not ask more. When I told him something he did not ask about he commented that I didnt need to tell him that, so now I am careful not to tell him something that he doesnt ask for. He did not ask to see the emails which is good because if he were to read them Im not sure he could get over what he would read. Likewise for any photos in my account as well. I just cant seem to get my head on straight though. I am hoping it just takes time and I can start to see clearly. Why does part of me want to be living the single life? I have a great family and a great life so why would I trade that just to date and experience other men? Its my insecurities driving that I think, I want to be wanted and needed yet that fades away fast so what is it that Im needing or searching for? I wish I knew the answers so I could start to help myself and my husband heal. He has told me he needs me to reassure him right now and I just wish I could do a better job of it.
I want to do what is needed to save this marriage, especially since my husband is willing. Im just waiting for the reality to set in more for him and have him change his mind afterall its only been just over 2 weeks. I need the reality to hit me though so I can be more remorseful. I think because we werent caught and because AP and I ended on good terms it makes it harder to let go of. I know my husband is worth fighting for, I just need to do more of that. Any input is appreciated. and while I've had many many moments that I wished I never confessed my true heart and head tell me it was the right thing to do. It might be the first time my head and heart have agreed in a long time. Thanks!
I do believe that your current therapist is on the wrong track in blaming something in your marriage for causing you to cheat. People cheat in "good marriages" all the time. Conversely, no one is happy in their marriage 100% of the time, and many of those people never cheat. We as WS have to look within ourselves to figure out why cheating was a viable choice, not at what was wrong with the marriage.
From personal experience I'd say separation makes R more difficult---but I'd say separate if that's what your BH needs. I know that sounds contradictory but I think it's important to put his needs first for the time being.
Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10
When he is angry, when he is sad, when is confused, when he is depressed. Stick by him and I pray that you can deal with the emotions.
For that day you were braved. From the darkness to the light. Remember to take it one day at a time.
I am having a hard time showing my husband that he is important and worth fighting for.
That's because -
I am still in the fog and missing the affair I think. I told my husband that I just need some time, that he and the kids are what I want but that I need to grieve also
I don't know what is the SI position on the WS grieving but I would hate to hear that. I'm glad my FWW never told me anything - well, at least not at the time. In fact, I would probably move out and start D. Saying that...
Part of me wants to move out to try to get me into reality more.
Moving out will send the wrong message. He will think you really don't care about him. I don't think it can work out if the WS moves out, but that's my opinion of course.
Well done. You were very brave. You did the right thing. I admire your resolve to confess. You have made a huge step forward to living an authentic life.
I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.
However, some of the things you wrote have me a little concerned about whether or not you really want to R and save your M. You said in your post you don't know if this is what you want and, IMO it doesn't sound like you are very remorseful.
Telling your BH was a good first step, but now you need to decide what you want to do....the amount of remorse you have should not be based on your BH and his actions/reactions....it should be something you feel on your own....
Second, sorry, but fire your therapist.
He told me happy people in marriages rarely cheat. There is something in your marriage that you were missing that led you to this.
Umm, no. NO NO NO! Happy people in marriages cheat all the time. There is something in YOU that you were missing, that led you to this.
Blaming your cheating on the M could be a death sentence to R. Your husband is devastated, and trust me, he''s blaming himself on some level. You or your therapist pointing at the M as the cause of your A is tantamount to telling BH he is *at least a little bit* to blame for you fucking another guy. And he''s not. Not even one percent. I know you know that.
Again, good job, I am so proud of you. You''re in for a very tough road over the next year or two (sorry, it really does take that long) whether R or D is the outcome of your M. Keep posting, we''re here for you.
There is a process with letting go of the feelings for the OP. No one can shut things off like a light switch and this forum provides a place for WS's to get to a point of indifference without having to subject their BS to anymore pain.
My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.
I agree with DS that it's a normal part of the process, I think if a WS is able to just "shut it off", then they're probably rugsweeping their feelings. Maybe not, as some WS seem to just go cold-turkey when they are discovered.
Even taking all that into account, grieving the AP and/or experiencing withdrawal from the AP is something that should be dealt with privately, or in conjunction with the IC...like nuance was saying, as the BS I can't imagine too many things more painful than discovering that your spouse is cheating, and then having to watch them grieve someone you now hate. Even if you can understand the concept intellectually, it would be soul-wrenching to watch.
Happy people in marriages cheat all the time.
Meaning that the person cheating is unhappy, but the reason for their unhappiness is not really due to the marriage, despite what they (or apparently, this IC) may say.
I agree that I should not let on to my husband how hard my grieving process is but I do need to let him know that I am also in a process. In a different spot than he is in recovery but along my own path that will have ups and downs. one thing that is hard is that I am a very emotional person but I have not broken down very often in front of him. I told him it's because I've had so long to process my thoughts, which is true. he is finding it all out at once, where as I've had months to deal with.
Also please keep in mind that while I'm being honest with my husband there are things I can not tell him but I hope I can share here. So while I am honest with you all about saying I'm not sure I'm out of the fog or over the affair it's to get help from others here. I want to be honest and get help and have others be able to comment about it.
Gently, you say that you want to move out to get your head together, to grieve the loss of your AP, and to have the chance to miss him and the children. You also say that he doesn''t want you to move out now.
OK, not so gently, what are you thinking? Yeah, you sure sound foggy! Think about this. You just told your BH that you had an affair with another man, that you had the other man in the house that your BH and children live in and had sex with him there, and that you need to leave to get over your AP. You''re going to walk out on your BH, who is in shock, trying to figure out what the heck just happened, you''re going to walk out on your three children who I assume at this point don''t know what''s going on and who are going to be confused, afraid, and hysterical, and you''re going to leave your BH in his pain to deal with your soon-to-be traumatized children, all of their child care, and all of the day-to-day things that have to happen to keep your house running, so you can go play at living the single lifestyle.
Confused, if your BH were in the JFO forum right now, the advice that he would be getting would be to tell you that either you are home and 100% invested in this marriage and in doing everything that he needed you to do, to prove that you are all in, or to see a lawyer, kick you out, and file. You want it all, frankly. That''s not remorse. IMO, that''s being very selfish. Being selfish is what got you where you are today. You need to get your head out of your wants and start looking at your BHs needs. If you truly want to save your marriage.
D-Day, June 10, 2012
It's true that I'm not ready to be completely remorseful, or I should say that I can't completely feel it and own it. I want to be, really I do. The thought was maybe the shock factor of losing it all will help reality set in. I think he is making it too easy for me, and he knows that as well but he is also afraid of losing me. If he says Yes I should leave, and I do, he is worried that I'm with other guy or decide I dont want to be in the marriage. It comes with risks. The best thing would be for him to go get some space but he doesn't want that. Or for us to work it out under hte same roof.
We would not tell the kids the truth and actually they have seen us be more loving in the last several months than ever before so they do not think anything is wrong with teh marriage. We would just say Mom needs some time to herself to sort out some of her anger issues or something like that. Problem is when they mention it to gramma or something so that is the big hurdle in that we dont want others to know at this point.
But I totally want to be all in, I hope I am getting there...it is still fresh for me. If I had waited til I was further in the process to confess then it would be more months of lies. I do still grieve the loss of the relationship with AP. While it was filled with lies to others it worked for us and filled the void. Now it's time to fill my own void and hopefully not find myself in this situation again. I just hope that in 5 years I can look back and say all hte pain was worth it for where we are at now.
Thank you for coming back and letting us know what your decision/action was. It sounds like you have taken a huge step forward in starting the process of healing.
Some H aren't that interested in the details. My H read the chain of emails and because I saved every single one was able to see the progression of the A. He skimmed over the explicit ones. He was more interested in the non sexual things we said to each other. He was actually a little surprised about all the nice things I said about him to the AP. And I think he wanted to know if I was leaving him for AP. (I wasn't and that was very clear from the emails).
After DDay, I didn't feel remorseful. I felt angry and a lot of other things but not remorseful. I also felt wish washy about whether I wanted to stay or get D. We were already in MC for our marriage so this didn't come as a surprise to anyone.
I needed to go through a grieving process myself and my H recognized that. There had always been three people in our marriage. Me, my H and the AP that I had never gotten over.
IC was really helpful for letting me talk out my feelings and slowly lifting the fog. I am still working for a state of indifference and slowly getting there. The not having up and down feelings all the time is actually refreshing.
My H and I are still sorting out whether we should keep at this marriage. There are good things about our marriage. When I read this board and others, I realize I am EXTREMELY lucky to have a rational husband who loves me. He may have his head buried in the sand about some stuff but there is quiet maturity that I appreciate out of him. There is a huge hole in our marriage as well. Can we fix that hole? I'm not sure but I can tell you we will always be friends.
Due to some weird circumstances, we will be apart for a month. We agreed to see if that time apart makes us both happier. I think the time apart will be good for both of us. Time to think and reflect.
Good luck and I'm glad to see you back
Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012
Trust me, inside he has anger, but he's afraid to show it. He doesn't know that it's just that what you need to see. So make it happen. Best luck and wishes! You have been very brave!
Well done you!!!
He cant imagine me not being in his life. I think he is still in shock. He is taking so much of the blame even though I keep telling him its me not him that needs to change. He feels extremely insecure right now which is to be expected.
Have to disagree with majortom87 on pushing him out of it by forcing the gruesome details on him.
Let him come out of it in his own good time. Be ready and willing to provide details when and if he asks for them.
Take it from me, when he finds his anger you'll wish he was back in denial.
One of the biggest mistakes you can make is trying to force your BS's processing and healing.
You can help, assist and support healing but you can't make it happen.
As for being fully remorseful, you're on track, it takes time for most of us.
(actually I think in reality instant full remorse is as rare as rocking horse doo doo)
Took me two years or so, (Obviously my BS has the patience of a Saint ).
As for your new IC, I think you should keep looking.
[This message edited by SlowUptake at 3:34 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras
There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Congratulations on finding the strength and commitment to talk to your husband. It takes courage. However, that was only step one in a long journey of healing. Now is when you find out whether or not you having staying power and can walk the walk.
confused43 - This new guy is more of a hard hitter and direct which is what I need. He told me happy people in marriages rarely cheat. There is something in your marriage that you were missing that led you to this. So while he says I do have personal things about me I need to work through, I also need to figure out where my marriage was not what I had wanted. I did have some ideas and he agreed that we need to look into that. I really thought I had a good marriage though but after taking a closer look I think Ive just existed in the marriage. Became numb. Not a bad marriage at all but not a fabulous one either
I agree with SlowUptakes comment that your ICs comment that happy people in marriages rarely cheat is utter crapola.
If what he meant was that happy, emotionally healthy, engaged people with solid boundaries rarely have affairs he might be right but blaming the affair on the unhappiness of the marriage and not looking at the root causes behind any existing state of unhappiness with the individual partners is bogus. I think it would have been more accurate for your IC to say that there was somthing lacking within you that led you to this.
IMHO, things that are lacking in marriages are a result of some form of brokenness in one or more of the marriage partners. Hard to explain but lets start with some imaginary questions that might illustrate this point.
Lets say that there was an apparent lack of emotional connection in the marriage. Perhaps you had common shared interests but seemed to be lacking that spark. So, instead of blaming the marriage and the lack of emotional connection, the point to look at is who is not pulling their weight to provide a safe and secure environment. Is it an inherent lack of communication that was apparent at the start of the relationship? If so, then why would you have still moved forward with getting married? Was it a need that was being fulfilled? Did you get married because you had to? Is there a buried resentment about your role as a SAHM? Why did you allow that lack of communication to continue? How come you couldnt be more assertive and push? Are you passive-aggressive? What need inside you were you not having fulfilled that lead you to look outside the marriage?
Can you see how this form of introspective examination will help you determine the root cause for you stepping out of your marriage? Maybe you could simply ask yourself this question. If the marriage was so bad, how is it that your husband didnt stray? Why did you decide to start a affair and yet he didnt take that route at all?
The digging for the why of the affair is not a easy thing and for some, it means finding out the existence of a side of you that you were never aware of. But ultimately, when you do find out, it can be so enlightening.
For instance, in my circumstance, my marriage was solid. My wife had been the ideal wife, supportive and caring. We had common interests, a great sex life especially in the year or so prior to my A, no financial issues etc. And yet I cheated. Why? What had changed? Why?
Well, what I came to understand is that as my first real relationship broke up, I pushed my feelings for the AP down deep inside, including the desire to see her and fight for her. Instead of fighting for her right there and the, I left in body but not in my heart. I continued to fantasy the what if scenarios day in and day out and eventually it was sublimed into a on-going dream fantasy where it simply continued to fester in my sub-conscious. Ultimately I met my wife (LF) and we had 23 years of good marriage but in truth, when we did have issues, in my dreams, I would find a happy place with my AP and carry on with this fantasy. 30 years after we broke up, when in my heart I felt that I had become successful and would be able to meet those expectations which I had been lacking when I was young, (part of the reasons that she dumped me), I subconsciously understood that my time had come. It was a hole inside me that lead me to reconnect with my xGF and start my EA, it was not anything in my marriage.
Inside me, the young man simply wanted another chance. Wanted to say, hey, I am worthy. I can provide you with the money and stability and the white picket fence house. I am worthy and I want you to be the woman that you promised me. I wanted a woman who desired me. But the reality is that all of those needs had already been fulfilled in my marriage but I was too blind to see that. I looked outward to fill some deep psychological needs when in reality, my wife was already providing true, unconditional, supportive love to me in our marriage. The missing link in my why was found by looking inside me first and foremost and not simplifying finding fault in the marriage. I'm not saying that your marriage was rock solid either but if something is out of kilter with the marriage, my first instinct would be to look for the partner or partners that are out of kilter themselves.
Anyhow, I hope you can see that the marriage issues that may exist are symptomatic of a brokenness within one or more of the partners. Unreal expectations, carrying resentment, inability to communicate, unable to be assertive, being enabling, looking for validation in the wrong places, these are the type of issues that I think you need to look for. Dont simply blame the marriage.
A successful marriage isn't finding the right person-it's being the right person - Unknown
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 7:05 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
I am on my 4th therapist now. Trying to find the right fit. This new guy is more of a hard hitter and direct which is what I need. He told me happy people in marriages rarely cheat.
I don't equate this statement with him being a hard-hitter. I equate it with him not having great experience dealing with infidelity. Find a fifth.
Have you shared the following with him....
Why does part of me want to be living the single life? I have a great family and a great life so why would I trade that just to date and experience other men? Its my insecurities driving that I think, I want to be wanted and needed yet that fades away fast so what is it that Im needing or searching for?
Part of me wants to be separated so that I can truly miss him and the kids and fight for them.
To echo Skan...what are you thinking?! This isn't some movie where you put them through hell and then more hell and then swoop back when you finally realize their worth. Leaving your family with your H during his trauma would be devastating to all. Even to say as you wrote: You would tell them that you are leaving to work out your "anger issues". For how long mommy? Did we make you angry? Why are you so angry? I don't know how old your kids are. Mine are 9 and 7 and I can only imagine their confusion and breaking hearts.
Finally, I have read a lot by HUFI in the past year. He comes across as being kind, open and honest and newbies are fortunate to have this wisdom.
Anyhow, I hope you can see that the marriage issues that may exist are symptomatic of a brokenness within one or more of the partners. Unreal expectations, carrying resentment, inability to communicate, unable to be assertive, being enabling, looking for validation in the wrong places, these are the type of issues that I think you need to look for. Dont simply blame the marriage.
For your H, this is the darkest time of his life no doubt. I hope you encourage him to tell someone - a best friend, a trusted colleague, a family member. He might want to look into IC. I hope you direct him to SI or a similar place of support. He truly needs a place of refuge right now.
I do believe that your current therapist is on the wrong track in blaming something in your marriage for causing you to cheat. People cheat in "good marriages" all the time. Conversely, no one is happy in their marriage 100% of the time, and many of those people never cheat. We as WS have to look within ourselves to figure out why cheating was a viable choice, not at what was wrong with the marriage.
Let me add my vote to this. Cannot say it better than this.
Also, leaving would be the last thing I want to do. There are not enough minutes in the day for me to prove to BW that I really, desperately want to change and to save our M and family. I want BW to see my remorse as much as she can, and try to remind herself that I can be better than the person she fell in love with. I want to give her space if she needs it. But I want to do everything I can to help her heal. That is a lot easier to do in the house. If he is hurt by the sight of you, leave the room, but stay as close as you possibly can.
It sounds like you are taking the right steps. Unfortunately, these are only the first few of a lot of them. Good luck.
First, congratulations for confessing and at least giving your husband the opportunity to also decide what he wants, but it sounds like you are really not sure that you want to live a in monogamy with your husband. I believe from what I have read that this has been your only affair, but you mention that you are not sure if you want to be in the single life. You better sort that one out QUICK, or you better ask your husband if he wants to R with you dating other men.
Once he gets past the anger that will surely come, I am sure knowing this all occurred in your home will also be a tough one for him to get over.
You are in a tough spot, but you should NOT move out. Your AP's spouse knows about the A, but if their situation deteriorates, you may be tempted in your current state of mind to reconnect. You need NC which will be much harder to do if you haver no one in essence watching over you in some manner.Also, your kids do not need this turmoil.
Since your husband did not kick you out and apperars much more calm for now, you should be able to work this out in your house, but that will never happen if you do not come to the conclusion that you do not need this kind of attention from any more men.
Also please keep in mind that while I'm being honest with my husband there are things I can not tell him but I hope I can share here.
[This message edited by obliquestrat at 9:49 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
I think a good place to start in IC (and I have to admit I agree with the other posters about finding a new one) is:
Best of luck to you and your family. Sending you (((hugs))) and strength for the journey ahead.
[This message edited by TennisTC at 10:25 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
Although I understand the underlying concern, I'm not sure there's enough information from your posts that would justify all these opinions that your IC should be fired. More context is needed. It's possible the IC was saying that happy, well-adjusted people don't engage in the type of behavior that puts an otherwise happy marriage at risk, not that there's never betrayal in good marriages.
You might want to clarify that point with him or her when you get a chance.
Best wishes.
You have chosen the hard road but I hope it will be successful for you.
My BH was the first to realize that I was mourning the loss of XAP and I hope your BH will see that as well.
My BH had terrible mind movies - they were almost debilitating for him. The only thing that helped him was EMDR therapy. It was like night and day for him.
As far as details, I would tell him only what he asks to hear for now. Everyone processes things differently and he may be better able to cope without knowing everything. Mine asked endless questions and it was so stressful to me that our therapist had us come up with a time each day that he could ask me questions. That way I wasn't on edge all day waiting for a new question to come up.
I would be leery of moving out just yet. Is there another room you can sleep in? I have heard stories of the Waywards moving out and coming back to find the BS changed the locks and filed for custody and D. Not saying yours would do that but it could happen.
All that said - just be there for your BH. Hug him when he needs comfort and give him space when he needs that instead.
I truly believe you can have a better marriage after going through this. My BH and I 2 1/2 years out and both admit our relationship is stronger than it ever was.
D day - July 2011 after a 4 year relationship with OM
Reconciled and renewed our vows on our 22 Anniversary in June 2012
You have your foggy, withdrawing, mourning self to change, heal, and grow. And a hurting BS to help through your actions. No easy task. I'd like to echo suggestions to stay. If you want R, then fight with every resource you have to be with your BS. And make sure he knows that intent.
If I did one thing right on DDay it was to tell my BW one simple and true truth: that I wanted to come back to myself, her, and us.
The rest of my waywardness hasn't been perfect, linear, or what I envisioned (including my confused and pathetic "NC email" which brought me here) but it has had that premise as a solid foundation.
Congrats and best wishes to you on your difficult path.
Right now hes making it too easy for me to just be here, like everything is ok. I want to be able to tell my husband that hes the one I want completely but when I do its not very believable as I am wishy washy which I know is not good.
I'd like you to think about this^^^^
Where does the complacency come from? Does it feel more comfortable when something is a challenge in order to feel worthy? Anything that comes easy cannot be of value?
Why is it important for you to struggle in order for you to appreciate what you have?
Some really difficult questions (that I'm trying to answer too) but I recognise the low self worth in your post and how it's hard to take someone seriously who really wants you.
Just something to think about or bring up in IC.
I think when your spouse confronts you and gives you and option then and there it helps snap people back into reality a bit more. In my case I executed and manipulated everything. Even the confession and so I just feel like I'm not getting the magnitude of what I've done and worry I might find myself in the same spot down the road. yes I'm going to IC. Sometimes 2 different therapists in a week. I need him to get tough with me but I think he is too afraid right now of losing me.
To answer some other questions: I am being honest with my husband about anything he asks and sometimes more. Things I want to be able to share here are not things that will be helpful in my R with my husband in my mind. If I have a big trigger and miss my affair and cant seem to pull my mind out of it, I'd like to come here, not for sympathy but for someone to say "we get it, we know it's hard to let go of something that felt good" I can't talk about that with my husband as I'm already wishy washy. but I still need support.
AP is not living at home anymore. He is in his own home and the divorce papers have been started. Yes there is that temptation, I won't lie. But I fight it knowing that it could never work out. I remind myself how great of a family I have. It's hard though as I was living in fantasyland last year, taking vacations with AP, hikes, dinners etc and all fairly often. I know it's wrong and I'm trying to get over it all and get my head back to where it should be. I've started that road and I will fight for it, I just think it will take me longer to see the light than maybe some others that had AP's that ended up being a nightmare. That wasn't my case. I had two mostly wonderful lives going at the same time. I just couldn't handle it and the guilt started getting to me. yes I am selfish, I'm working on that. I'm not even close to being the person I want to be. I just try to remind myself to take it easy on myself so I don't spiral into depression. I am trying to be there for my spouse as much as I can. It's not natural unfortunately. I'm not a touchy feely person and he likes that. I am trying to give him the security he needs right now. I am trying and I could do better but need to take my own steps in order to make it more genuine. and my husband is in IC also trying to sort out his feelings about everything.
Thanks everyone for your comments. I do appreciate them and while I wish I could say I was further along in my mind for remorse and for reconciliation I know it's just going to take me longer, but my hope is that when I get there it will make it even better since it will be real and genuine.
Imagine you decide to D your BH. Five years from now, at your oldest child''s high school graduation...what does that look like? Are you sitting there next to your BH, both of you beaming with pride as your child receives his/her diploma, swapping stories about the boy she had a crush on in first grade? Or are you sitting a few rows away from BH, and his beautiful, classy, physically affectionate wife. Because let''s face it Confused, he''s an awesome catch.
You, though? Do you think you''ll be sitting side-by-side with AP? A cheater, who if he cheated on his BW will most likely cheat on you? Or will you be with some other random guy? Or alone?
What about your daughter''s wedding? The birth of your first grandchild? Who do you want to make those memories with?
BIL got D''d (not due to infidelity) when their kids were in elementary school. Not only are the kids (especially the younger one, the daughter) kinda fucked up, but BIL regrets that he can''t sit around with the mother of his children and reminisce about "do you remember when they were little and they..."? Yeah, he remarried, but those kids'' lives? No way to know how they would''ve turned out, but I''m guessing the daughter wouldn''t be twice-divorced before age 30, if she''d grown up in an intact home.
I wish I could say I was further along in my mind for remorse
It took me fully 7 months to shed a tear of true remorse, so I can relate.
To answer some other questions: I am being honest with my husband about anything he asks and sometimes more. Things I want to be able to share here are not things that will be helpful in my R with my husband in my mind.
Are you put off by your BH response? What response were you hoping for?
Do you respect your BH? Or no, because he is being too nice.
I too think he is in shock. I remember beig angry that my BH was being so civil and nice to me. I thought he didn't care. I told him some things about how I really lurved the AP and that lit the anger fuse.
AP is not living at home anymore. He is in his own home and the divorce papers have been started. Yes there is that temptation, I won't lie
You are withholding this info from BH, choosing not to tell him things you feel he can't handle. but if he knew how you still pined for AP, I would bet you would see a less affable reaction.
Now, gently, hitch up your britches and calibrate your TT to your BHs needs, not yours. I know you dont want to hurt him anymore than my WW did me, but the deed is done. You fucked another man. The train is off the tracks, and youve lost control of the throttle. Let him modulate the pace, but hold nothing back that he asks for. It is especially important to be able to offer up that which paints you in a bad light, not just the justifications. Show some humility.
Take it from one who knows, anything else only multiplies the hurts. Sometimes, the BS needs a certain amount of TT for their own sanity, but it is not for you to decide how much. You took away the most important thing in their life, your fidelity, and you have lost your right to choose for them again. For a long time.
I understand youre grieving the loss of your AP, I saw my WW go through it too. Like you, she was "having a great time", didn't want to stop, and missed him when she did. Understand that this hurts your BH beyond measure so show compassion and dont rub it in, but it is a fact that every betrayed must come to terms with.
Unless your BH kicks you out, which may yet come once the anger hits, dont leave. Even in your grief, this will help show him who you chose, after you chose badly.
And last, you didnt have an A to make your marriage better. Maybe, if you do everything right, and your BH is loving, and compassionate, and forgiving, and tough as nails and stronger than a bridge, maybe just maybe this will be the outcome. But it wont have anything to do with your choices, it will have everything to do with his.
My Ws A was over 30 years ago. Shes graduated from WW, to FWW and back to W. I love her deeply. We have a good marriage. Better? You have got to be kidding.
ETA Removed 2x4, Mods are right.
[This message edited by MoreWould at 1:45 PM, February 13th (Thursday)]
There are things I wish he would ask me but I can't force him. When I mentioned that AP and I would often video chat at night together for hours he told me that was something I didn't need to tell him. I'm not sure if he really meant that but it told me not to tell him what he doesn't ask for. He has asked me if there is anything else major that I think he should know and I tell him I think he knows all the major things....which he does. However yes there are still things that he should ask me but I dont want to throw it on him when he's not ready for it. He knows I have all my emails still available but has not asked for them. He hasn't even asked for my password to my phone. He is trusting me. He will ask when I go out if I am really going to where I say I am and I always reassure him or ask if he wants me to send pictures of where I am or talk to the friend I am out with. He says he doesn't need that.
My husband said after 8 months you probably told each other you loved one another too. It wasn't really a question but a statement. He has never asked how much we had sex or where. He knows it happened at both our homes but that's about it. He knows all the general info but not the specific. I'm not sure why he doesn't ask. I'd want to know but then the details would kill me.
I think what 20wrongs said is what I need to do and try to think about how things will look if we do split up. Part of me probably has lost some respect for my husband for not being tougher with me. I don't really know how I feel. It's not like I really want my ass thrown out but at least it would show me he is serious and I need to step it up. Again I just don't know and I am so wishy washy and I know that's not good for him right now. I try to keep my wishy washiness to myself but it has a tendency to rear it's ugly head.
Now, gently, hitch up your britches and calibrate your TT to your BHs needs, not yours. I know you dont want to hurt him anymore than my WW did me, but the deed is done. You fucked another man. The train is off the tracks, and youve lost control of the throttle. Let him modulate the pace, but hold nothing back that he asks for. It is especially important to be able to offer up that which paints you in a bad light, not just the justifications. Show some humility.
And now might be time to start letting go of the illusion a little - that you had two pretty good lives, or that your AP may somehow be a teensy bit better than the garden-variety scuzz-bucket who cheats on his wife. (Can I say that?)
You are still very foggy, my dear. Consider reading "Not Just Friends" and if you keep coming back here, you'll get a lot of support from people who have been there.
I edit, therefore I am.
This is not the forum to vent and/or swing 2/x4's.
Part of me probably has lost some respect for my husband for not being tougher with me.
My wife left me while I was out of town on business, filed for divorce a month later, completed the divorce two months after that and moved out of state a month after that.
Two months after all that went down she woke and that is when I found out about the A. 48 hours later we were planning to get remarried and we did so the next month.
I was too nice, right?
Anyone that knows me respects me for my integrity and values. Nobody that knows me would say I'm no push over. I wasn't too nice. We had some major, whopper, F Bomb dropping fights as we worked on reconciliation.
Yes, I was immediately 100% committed to R. Yes, I had been working on me and was there to help her work on her. But to suggest I wasn't tough and didn't deserve respect is way off base. It takes an incredible toughness to survive infidelity and come out the other side a better, stronger man. I obviously don't know your husband, but I can say that what you've described of his reaction so far in now way suggests a lack of toughness that would warrant any diminishment in respect.
In my opinion, you are over thinking this whole thing. You can't categorize how he is "supposed to have acted" at this point because there are too many variations on how people deal with these kinds of stress bombs being dropped into their life.
He deserves for you to help him heal. You do that IN THE HOME. You absolutely have a right to decide that it isn't a marriage you want, but do the work now - for HIM, for YOU and for the marriage.
Dig in for the long hard slog of healing. Down the road you both can make decisions about your future. But work on the healing now. It will do you BOTH good in the long run no matter what you decide to do in terms of your marriage.
Haven't waded thru the entire thread but this caught my eye.
He knows all the general info but not the specific. I'm not sure why he doesn't ask.
My Dday was November 4, 2011. He just asked me this past Saturday how I actually did the webcamming. He wanted every, gory detail. It took from November 4, 2011 to February 8, 2014 for him to decide that it was something he needed to hear.
Follow your husband's lead. You're only two weeks out. His mind is probably numb and in shock. Give him time to process the new reality. Let him find his footing. You may be surprised as time passes, at what he decides he needs.
"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne
And now might be time to start letting go of the illusion a little - that you had two pretty good lives, or that your AP may somehow be a teensy bit better than the garden-variety scuzz-bucket who cheats on his wife. (Can I say that?)
You are still very foggy, my dear. Consider reading "Not Just Friends" and if you keep coming back here, you'll get a lot of support from people who have been there.
But to suggest I wasn't tough and didn't deserve respect is way off base. It takes an incredible toughness to survive infidelity and come out the other side a better, stronger man.
An example, I think I remember crying a week or two past dday in some kind of joy that I did not 'lose' my WW and that I was going to be able to keep my bride. Yay!.... Wow, what denial. See, just 4 weeks prior, my bride was having no problem enjoying a valentines dinner with me and the kids the night before getting on a plane to go get penetrated by a man who was not her husband. I had before that lost everything. So yeah, the denial goes away, and your BH will 'see' who he is or was married to. Yep, strap in.
The tidal wave of anger will come. Please do not have him hurt himself with all the self-blame and then throw in the towel when the anger hits just because it is uncomfortable for you.
Good for you in coming clean BTW.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 7:32 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
Everytime it's pointed out what a scumbag he is to do what he did does make me a little defensive though because I did those same things and I'm not a scumbag.
You may not be a scumbag...now, but during the course of your A you were a scumbag. Or at the very least behaved like one.
I spent a lot of time trying to convince myself that I was a good person during my A. It took me the better part of a year digging into my why's, seeing my husband's pain, and learning some empathy and humility before I could finally accept that I was a real (fill in your favorite derogatory term) during that time. I had to come to terms with the fact that I did some pretty horrible things. I had to figure why and how so that I could change the thought processes that led me down that path. I don't expect you to find acceptance any time soon. It's a journey. But you should be "owning your shit" as we like to say around here.
When you are defensive, there is a reason. It's usually something to look into a little further.
[This message edited by WalkinOnEggshelz at 7:26 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
You may not be a scumbag...now, but during the course of your A you were a scumbag. Or at the very least behaved like one.
I do not want to be defined by my affair and I think that is one of the problems i have sometimes with the tone of some posts I read on SI. I think that is absolutely correct that I behaved poorly, like a scumbag low life, but it truly is not who I am.
In reality,
If it walks like duck.
Quacks like a duck.
Swims like a duck.
Flys like a duck.
Occums Razor would dictate it is in fact, a duck.
we are your friends, co-workers, doctors/nurses, teacher etc.
noun: scumbag; plural noun: scumbags
a contemptible or objectionable person.
Every time I read your posts, it pulls me back to how I felt a year ago. Missing the "fun" and mourning the loss of something that was special for me and ONLY for me. The way you talk about your H is very similar also, although I DID lose respect for my H as I felt he didn't man up. He took all my bullshit and wasn't "man" enough to throw me out on the curb and teach me a lesson, after all that's what a real man would do right?? A Real Man being my XAP who often proclaimed if he ever found out his wife cheated on him he would divorce her in a flash. Yep, my idea of a "real man" was a man that was cheating on his wife
It's taking me time to realise, perhaps a real man is my H. A man who takes his kids and family seriously and will do what it takes to keep it in tact. I think our H's are afraid to really share how they feel about us in case we leave.
There is something deeper in this however.. why is mediocre not enough? Why do we need excitement in order to feel alive? If what we've always wanted is a family then why is it not enough? Why are you so torn?
The only thing that has kept me sane is really figuring out what voids AP was filling. It wasn't sexual as we never saw each other. It was emotional and mental. The biggest thing I've done is stand up for myself and insisted I re-start my career as that used to give me a sense of achievement and fulfilment and pride. My H has always discouraged me to work as he felt I needed to support his career and raise the kids. This led to huge amounts of resentment and low self worth. He said the finical contribution I would make was insignificant and therefore I should be a SAHM and serve everyone around me. I am now asserting myself and things are gonna change around here.
What is your void???
BS here (no stop sign)
I applaud you for taking that first step and confessing. Continue to post often and you will continue to receive a lot of support here from those that have went thru the same.
I agree with many of those that have commented already but there is one thing you said...that i take issue with.
He did not ask to see the emails which is good because if he were to read them Im not sure he could get over what he would read.
If he asks for the emails you give them to him and then deal with any fallout and support him in every way you can with his pain that you and only you created. What you said above that you are not sure he would get over what he would read is the same thing my WW said to me.
In MC, our C told my WW...that is a very selfish, stubborn, "its all about me" statement anyone can make. MC continued to tell my WW that only me the BS could answer that question and WW cannot answer any questions for me. This was nothing more than another avenue to "issue avoidance" ...a justification not to dig deeper within herself.
If WW wanted to know "can you get over this...or do you think you will be able to get over this" then ask the question and let me answer.
Do not answer for me...like she did when she decided to fuck a married man. In her mind, she asked me "can i fuck a married man at hotels and go on vacations with him" and she answered for me "yes".
Never never answer a question that the answer is owned by your faithful spouse. Because it can get you into a lot of trouble and you will not be on the right path to R.
So to that end, that's my mild "2x4" in the hope you will never answer any questions that belong to your faithful husband
me: 59
her WW- 58
7 yr LTA (PA & EA) with her former boss (I knew him)
one d-24 yrs old- former eating disorder now OCB
married 26 yrs
in "R" and its been roller-coaster
D-day 3-13-12
confronted 6 wks later(dropped 35# in those 6 weeks and was hospitalized for 2 days with severe chest pains-thought i was having a heart attack)
I contacted AP's faithful wife and we both kept tabs on our waywards
Fog, denials, blame shifting, rub sweeping, TT you name it and she did it but things are finally getting better very slowly
its a long road....and painful
I do not want to be defined by my affair
No one does. There are a couple of ways you can handle that. One, say you learned your lesson, rugsweep, don't do anything to change the behaviors and thought processes you currently have only to have it all rear it's ugly head again in the future; or two, do the hard work to find out your why's and work to change the current thoughts that just aren't working for you.
Doing the work will most likely mean that your life will revolve around your A for a long time. There will be talks about it and fights with your BH, IC, reading and posting on SI,sleepless nights, maybe some missed work days so you can work through it all. Working through this will consume your life and probably feel as if it is defining you at the time. You will feel shame, distress, grief, panic, sadness, hope, empathy, and humility just to name a few of the emotional roller coaster coming your way. It's absolutely the most difficult thing I have ever been through in my entire life. It takes years.
It doesn't have to define you when you are able to say you have done and will continue to do the work to make yourself a healthier, safer person. I guarantee you, that as much as you don't want your A to define you, your BH will be fighting the good fight to not let it define him.
I have posted that you are still in your affair. I don't mean physically, but mentally you Still have some hooks in it
You still think fondly of a man who agreed with you to cheat on her husband and family. There is nothing wrong with admiring someone. However, admiring Someone who can participate in the destruction of a marriage is not honorable. He wrote explicit emails to a married woman. If this man was doing this to someone else, would you think he was so grand?
For you to pursue him and he responds, knowing that you are married, that is not so honorable. I was that man. I knew my actions were wrong. I knew my actions were despicable, but I was being selfish. Your AP is not a victim who succumbed to the wiles of a married woman, but he was a willing participant in the disrespect of your husband and the possible destruction of your marriage.
The anger will come for your husband. Be prepared. He may say some things about you he never said before. He may not, but anger will come as soon as the shock wears off.
I hope you are staying NC and I really hope you see how bad infidelity truly is.
I was fortunate..I saved my family from my horrible destructive actions.It took a lot of hard work. I am sure you can do the hard work, it would be wise to really take a look at who your AP can be when faced with a decision whether or not to have an affair with a married woman. An honorable man would have told you to work on your marriage.
Your AP may be a good guy who made a bad decision
But to your BH, he will just be the man who had an affair with his wife.He will never look on him favorably. With NC and working on you and your marriage..the hooks of the affair that are still present will soon come off and you may not see him so favorable.
It took fertility treatments for me to have kids, it was a struggle and nothing that I wanted more, yet now that I have them I sometimes take it for granted, and they drive me nuts often. I try to remember how badly I wanted them and how thankful I am to have healthy happy kids. It's helps to be reminded sometimes as we lose our focus and get selfish. In the morning I go in and cuddle my youngest. I love that time and think, wow what if I didn't live here? I need to try to think of those things.
Right now my mind knows what it needs to do but my heart still isn't sure. I can't feel it yet. Once I can get over ap I feel like I can start to work on my marriage with more authenticity. Right now it's half ass. I honestly think my husband deserves better. I just hope that with time I can be be the wife he deserves, not sure there is enough time in the year though.
Why are you so bothered that your actions may define you for now?
My WH is a good father, he can be a good husband, he is an excellent sales person, an industrious employee, a good friend.
But during his As, he was not a good father, most definitely not a good husband. His obsessive behavior with his APs made that impossible. He was still a good employee and an excellent sales person. He was not a good friend. He used them or blew them off to be with his AP. He is not that person now.
It's ok to admit you did good deeds while in your A, but at your core you were not a good wife, etc. It doesnt have to define your future.
We are all walks of life, people you look up to and yes we lead this secret scumbag life but we are still able to be good people too. We are lost and messed up and looking in all the wrong places to feel better.
There is something to this. Last week my wife was driving behind a car being driven by an elderly lady when she saw something go flying off the car. Turns out the lady left her purse on the hood and drove off. Credit cards and other items went flying everywhere. My wife actually risked her neck to pull over and retrieve all of the items and stuff it back in the purse, where she found a wad of cash and even keys to an office and a vacation home. She spent the rest of the day trying to track this lady down before eventually connecting with her and returning the purse that night.
The lady was overwhelmed and tried to give my wife money (she refused). She then went on about how nice the people in this town are and that my wife must be some kind of an angel. She recently moved to this town, and apparently saw my fWW as a shining example of the type of people who live here.
Not the selfish person her affair would suggest.
It's interesting - one person's devil can be another's angel, depending on the circumstances. I don't think she's the "devil" by any stretch, but if you'd asked me around this time last year I damn sure wouldn't have described her as an angel.
Objectively, my wife is a good person. Always has been. She has shown a ton of growth in the last year, but I'm pretty sure she would have done the same charitable act even if the incident occurred during the middle of her affair. That's just who she is and always has been.
That doesn't make those destructive and bizarre 10 months any easier to digest, but it sure makes R a lot easier.
Just some food for thought. I wish you the best, confused43.
Bless you for confessing. That took courage.
Now, you are going to need more courage. A lot.
Courage to dig deep and figure out why you risked your family and crushed the soul of a man who did not deserve this.
Courage to make a decision and put your husband and family out of their misery (yes, even if they do not know it, your kids are now in harms way). Keeping your husband in limbo is not fair to him - if you want to be single, he deserves to know now instead of a year from now.
Courage to face his anger (and it will come). Courage to face his fear. Courage to face his confusion about how can he stay with someone who (to him) hates his guts enough to give herself to another man in every way, hates him so much she would make him a part-time Dad, hates him so much she willingly has thrown away his devotion to her...
Courage to face him as he cycles through a million emotions - none of them good...
None of this is easy. Facing your demons and the wake of your destruction never is. But you have taken a huge step forward in becoming a better person and a better partner, even if you wind up divorced.
Strength and blessings to you on your journey to healing.
Reallyscrewedup: thank you for your post. Very true and I hope I do have the courage. point taken.
I just wish I could get rid of the wishy washy me and start to focus, although focus has always been a problem for me unless I really really want something.....that's what worries me.....I'm not there yet really really wanting my marriage to work. I do "want" it, just need to feel it more inside of me.
In my A , I felt 20 years younger. I felt like I was finding my true self. The OM loved this band I fell in love with. I could have loved the music on my own. Not because of him. I started running more because of OM. Why didn't I find this love on my own ?
I was there all along. I had buried myself. My BH dodnt do this. Our M had issues, but I chose to bury my head in the sand and cheat.
I doubt any vet on here would disagree that good people do bad shit. I believe that with all my heart. I have devoted my life and profession to helping others.
But I shit all over my M.
I had to recognize that maybe I wasn't as awesome as I projected. I had weaknesses and failings and a mean streak.
Wayward side is not about ignoring or rug sweeping. It is facing your demons. And being better.
Last thing. What do you respect in a partner? You mentioned you lost respect for BH because he was merciful. What do you respect ? Do you respect the OM ?
I mention this because my own sense of respect was fucked. I loved men who were macho and emotionally unavailable. I have developed an aMazing respect for my BH since DDay. Something deeper. I respect his fidelity and his honesty. His fight to stay with me against his pride.
[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 9:11 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
Regarding your therapist, our couple therapist is famous for saying, 'happy people don't cheat,' and it does make sense to me. There has to be something within the marriage that is not working - communication, sex, etc. It can be that the person who cheats isn't a happy person inside, but a portion of that rests within the marriage. I do believe that, and I can see where it rings true in many situations, including my own.
Moving out? I can tell you that as a BW, I still get angry and hurt that I had to watch my WH go through his process of grieving that (very brief) A. It was like twisting the knife he had already stabbed me in the heart with. It's totally unfair to make him comfort you through that. While I do believe that it may make R more difficult. I also believe you need to earn your way back into the marriage and his good graces.
The best of luck to you both! You've done a courageous thing and I hope you both can get past the hurts and grow old together : )
I think your time would have been better spent reading hte newspaper rather than giving me the definition of a scumbag.
Right now you clearly don't know what I need, as that is not it.
Now let's go back even further.
At some point years ago Confused43, you decided you needed more passion in your life.
You decided you didn't need that from your husband.
You decided you needed an emotional connection with a man other than your husband.
You needed to have sex with a man other than your husband.
You needed to abandon your family.
My whole point is that since you have admitted yourself, that you are still foggy, don't you think that based on previous thinking/actions, that your decision making process on what you need is more than a little irrational?
So with that I'll repeat, because the message obviously got lost in the method of delivery last time.
Is it possible this -
could be as a result of this -
Because what I, bluntly and others subtley, have been trying to get across to you is that while ever you think of yourself as a 'Good person who made some unfortunate mistakes', you are not going to reach full remorse.
But then again, what would we know. Since it's not as though we've BTDT. Oooh wait.........................never mind.
[This message edited by SlowUptake at 3:25 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]
I'm wondering if the confession didn't give you want you wanted...For your husband to get really angry and kick you out and demand a divorce.
By not doing that, you are still faced with having to make a choice. To stay in your marriage and fight or to get a divorce.
I know that part of my wish washiness is that I didn't want to be the one to make the decision. I wanted him to be the "bad" guy and divorce me. Instead he proved to be the bigger person and told me to figure out what I wanted. He didn't demand a NC. He didn't demand full access to my accounts . He told me to figure out if I was coming or going. I have to figure out what I want. I had to stop the affair on my own. I had to be an adult and face my bad decisions.
His disappointment in me is harder to take than any anger he will ever show. I can handle anger and I can relate to anger but disappointment hits me harder. I don't want my husband to be disappointed in me. That kills.
I'm not second guessing your decision to confessing. I think however maybe to examine the motive behind it.
I'm not saying everyone needs to be nice but there is something to be said about posts that to me cross the line. We know we fucked up or we wouldn't be here as waywards. I don't need to post each time about what a fuck up I am.
Do you really know this, or are you trying to bargain yourself into a lesser state of ownership?
All the great choices you have made in your life, are yours to own fully. Even if you multiplied your good deed to the power of 10, they still could not eclipse the A. Nor can the A, take away the good choices and good deeds you have done.
As a wayward they already say that yes we fucked up, are fucked up and we are also the parent picking up your kids from camp and making dinner for them, helping you through a tough time with your spouse or family, teaching your kids, cleaning your teeth, your office assistant etc.
Who is they? Who is this "they" that says these things?
You may think I am asking some kind of off base non-relevant question, however there is a legitimate purpose behind that question.
You don't need to answer it. Just mull over the concept of, who this "they" is and why you feel they are defining you a certain way.
Worrying about how you appear to others, how they perceive and define you is something you have zero control over. You don't get to decide how others define you. You can argue forever with this nebulous group of they, and it will be a complete waste. You only get to decide how YOU define you. In order to do that you will need to strip away some of the defenses you have built.
Get humble with yourself. Part of the reason the AP still seems like an OK fellow, is because of your concern about being labeled/defined, and the resistance against lowering yourself to that unthinkable place. That unthinkable place, holds the key to your transformation.
Pride is getting in the way of remorse and humility, and keeping you in the fog.
Pride won't allow you to lower yourself. Pride builds a false sense of self, that is easily damaged, offended and in a constant state of defense.
Humility will allow to lower yourself, while still preserving your self respect. Humility builds self love. Get humble so you can clear the fog and get back to work building that honest, strong sense of self.
You may not have consciously chosen the words "deep down and still" but they reveal a great deal about how you see yourself.
Deep down I am still a good person
Before you can claim her, you are going to have to do the work.
Dig deep down, past the pride, past the defensiveness, through the bad..(.all the stuff Walkinoneggshelz refers to), so that you can build that good person up and define her for yourself.
Confused...there's SI members all around you who are like lighthouses - shining their beacons into your fog. Trust them. They are a safe haven, built on solid ground, and have seen and weathered thousands of storms.
Row, row, row your boat...
Start making lists. Words on paper can be very powerful.
What are the 3 top reasons why you are not with AP right now?
What were the top 3 things that made you marry your husband?
In an ideal world, how would you spend your days?
How does your H contribute to the quality of your life?
Who are the top 3 people in your life whose company you enjoy? When was the last time you saw them or had a night out with them?
confused43 - I just wish I could get rid of the wishy washy me and start to focus, although focus has always been a problem for me unless I really really want something.....that's what worries me.....I'm not there yet really really wanting my marriage to work. I do "want" it, just need to feel it more inside of me.
Hello Confused43
It seems to me that you are really hanging tight onto your user name. You were obviously in a state of confusion when you joined and to a great degree, months later, its obvious that youre still feeling confused.
Confused about your feelings. Confused about what steps to take. Confused about who you are and where you are going. Being there is understandable, its called the WS fog but sooner, rather than later, you need to walk out of the fog and into clarity.
In the quote above, you state, I just wish I could
I want you to pay attention to that phrase. I wish. Its a juvenile approach to dealing with lifes problems. Wish for a magic wand that solves everything without having to break a sweat, without having to do any soul searching, without having to any hard lifting in the marriage. Dont get me wrong. I understand the gut wrenching desire to wish for the magic wand and reverse time to the pre-A era. You see that being wished time after time here on the ws forum. But wishing and hoping and scheming and dreaming is not going to fix your mess.
You know you have a problem focusing. You recognize that at a certain level you are passive and wishy washy. Well, as AA says, acknowledging our problem is the first step and it seems that you have done that. Now, all you need to do is continue with the other 11 steps in the recovery process.
Cant focus? Well, start off with a white board in the kitchen, den, on the computer that puts the message, There is no want, there is only DO in front of your face every day. Make a TO DO list that pushes you forward. Sit with pen and paper and write things down. Make a schedule. Pick one task and get it done before you move to another. Healing is not going to happen by wishing for focus. Healing will happen when you decide that you need to either shit or get off the pot. Go and visit http://www.creatingfocus.org
confused43 - I'm not there yet really really wanting my marriage to work. I do "want" it, just need to feel it more inside of me.
Can you see the disconnect between this statement and a previous one that says Now I want that (passion) even though my affair is over but not sure I can feel that with my husband. How do you feel the excitement when it's not there?
Well, you get what you put forth. How can he be passionate when you had an affair? And yes, you may argue that you had the affair because you were lacking passion but youre into a very circular argument here that you can never win. Yes, you want the marriage but its not the day to day marriage that is broken, its the magical, passionate, madly in love marriage that you want. And the only way to get that is to pour yourself into your marriage. With wild abandon and passion. I think that when you do that, you will see passion being returned.
I just feel that your ambivalence is apparent to your H and to yourself. You really need to make a decision about where you want to go and the person you want to be. Being indecisive is a cop out. Your afraid of the hard decision and the tough choices but if you really want to be an authentic person, you have to start making the hard decisions.
If you really really dont feel "it" in your marriage anymore, then your choice is fairly simple, either you work on it like its the air in your lungs or you let go. Wishing for a solution is not the same as being the solution.
Wisdom from Gamine - Make a decision and discipline yourself not to waver. Don't be someone who stands for nothing. Stand for what you decide and back it with the full force of your character and conviction. DECIDE. CHOOSE. COMMIT. PERIOD.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 11:02 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]
This is related to the second point, wanting to feel wanting your marriage and feel passion for your husband inside. You will not be able to tell what you want and feel until you are OUT of the fog. It's not your husband's job to get you out of the fog or get you to know what you want. That is the work you need to do. It is also not your job to decide if you are good enough for him or not. He gets to decide what he wants, and you get to decide what you want. That is something for you to communicate about with each other. After my Dday I felt like the loving things I did were not authentic enough, and that he deserved better. He DID deserve better, but HE got to decide if what I was doing was enough for him at any stage. I worked as hard as I could at being authentic for ME as well as for HIM. This is still a work in progress, but after 3 years I have actually had experiences of feeling authentic inside and knowing I was communicating that to him.
I was lucky in never doubting that I did want our marriage, and unlucky in being so messed up that it has taken that long to start to be the person I thought I had been and want to be from now on. The outcome I have now depended on my commitment to do the work, even though I didn't know how I would be capable of it. Day by day, minute by minute, living through the shame and the blankness, remembering that my husband saw someone good inside me and wanted to be with me. I just had to keep putting one foot in front of the other. His staying was not weakness, it was strength, knowing what he wanted and being willing to fight for it. But he said clearly that if I could not do the work, he would eventually leave to preserve his own emotional health.
Every person is different, but we all share a lot as well. You have gotten a lot of different feedback and advice that you can take and fine tune as you shape your own process. Congratulations on what you have done so far, and don't give up on yourself at this early point. What has kept me going is my commitment to persevere. I hope you will do that too, whatever the specifics of your issues and work.
my mind knows what it needs to do but my heart still isn't sure. I can't feel it yet
For me, I think this defines the difference between regret and true remorse.
You just aren't there yet, perhaps don't understand what you really did, maybe never will.
My wife thought she knew. Then, one day leaving a counseling visit she had been somewhat subdued in, she just literally started shaking. That day, in counseling, MC, she started to understand what she had really done, and on the way to the car the enormity of her actions and the pain she had inflicted hit home. Keep in mind, thus was 9 years after the affair, and she had been to counseling before during this time. She had been reading. She is very intelligent. She knew a lot.
But, she just didn't get it.
You could be the female version of my WH. I swear he went through the exact same thing.
I do understand why you wouldn't want to share ALL of your thoughts regarding your "waffling" with him. That you want to do it here. I get why people are arguing that choice.
I will just say this: My WH DID tell me how difficult the "choice" was for him. Told me months into "R" (?) that he still loved BOTH of us. But that he had chosen me. How he was grieving. How it wouldn't be "fair" for him to move back in where the kids and I would have to watch him moping and grieving over her.
I cannot tell you how much this devastated me. He took that knife he had already jammed in my back and kept twisting and twisting. When I didn't think I could possibly hurt anymore. That honesty HURT like Hell. Still does.
Even if you don't say it, he will suspect it. Your choice on how to deal with this.
My only advice: If you can't get past the AP, let your H go. You're not doing him some great favor by sticking around if he is your second choice. But, if your true remorse comes slowly (and I do believe this is possible), whether you tell him your current feelings or don't... When you DO finally feel differently, be sure to address your new feelings directly with him. Tell him how you got to your new understanding/feelings. Tell him what you've learned. How you've changed. Why you don't think that way anymore. Tell him and tell him often. No BS deserves to live their life thinking that they are a second choice or back-up plan. If he's strong and decent enough to accept the pain you inflicted on him, you owe him the respect and love to heal those wounds.
If you need time, tell him so, but assure him that you want to commit fully to him. Show him your progress. Don't make him wonder.
Let him decide if you stay or move out. Period. The book "How to Help Your Spouse Heal" insists that the BS gets to make this choice. My WH immediately asked our MC if that was "necessary"... his needs were still the most important at that time. It infuriated me. Still does, actually. (Sorry if I'm getting a bit triggery in my response.) I just want to help you navigate this foggy period by perhaps shedding a little light on your BH's reality from someone who's BTDT.
I loved my WH enough to give him the time needed to fully extract his head from his derriere. But it did untold damage to me. More damage that needs to be healed now. But he did figure it out. Not as quickly as I would have liked. But he's becoming the man I knew he could be.
I now truly believe we have the potential to have a truer deeper more authentic love than either of us knew possible.
I wish you the very best. I really do. And I send my wishes for strength and peace to your BH.
Yes, you want the marriage but its not the day to day marriage that is broken, its the magical, passionate, madly in love marriage that you want. And the only way to get that is to pour yourself into your marriage. With wild abandon and passion. I think that when you do that, you will see passion being returned.
This, or something to this effect, is often stated on this site and this forum. I don't think many newbies really believe it. It's a tough sell, especially when there are kids and years or even decades of dormant passion.
My experience might be unique, but the above has been 100% true. For whatever reason, my wife and I decided to pour ourselves back into the marriage "with wild abandon and passion." And what has resulted is a passion that neither of us thought was possible 18 years and 4 children after we were married.
Seriously, there isn't a newlywed couple out there that has a thing on us. We'd give any couple a run for their money in the passion department. It started with HB, but there's nothing hysterical about it now. It's just how we do things. This from a marriage that has been dormant in the passion department since around 1998 or so.
If you really want your marriage to work, give yourself to your spouse completely - heart, body and soul. There's no guarantee that your spouse will reciprocate, but you have nothing to lose. And if he or she does reciprocate, the rewards are amazing.
Many on this site, particularly BS's, bristle at the notion that a marriage can not just survive but even THRIVE after betrayal. It's counter-intuitive. But some do. We don't have to let bad things in life defeat us. Having a great, revitalized marriage in no way justifies or excuses the horrible behavior that serves as a catalyst for growth and change - I think we can all agree that there are healthy ways to achieve the same goal. But as the saying goes, just because life gives you a pile of shit doesn't mean you have to wallow in it.
And life will always give you a pile of shit from time-to-time...if not a broken marriage, then something else. The lesson is to not let it define you.
Your need to hold onto the idealized version of the AP as still being a "good person" is difficult for me to respond to without swinging a bit of a 2x4, so in deference to the forum we're in, I'll let the waywards help you along with that.
Sal1995 - Many on this site, particularly BS's, bristle at the notion that a marriage can not just survive but even THRIVE after betrayal.
I think the notion that the marriage is thriving or has improved BECAUSE of the A is what many BSs find insulting.
Committing totally to your marriage, digging deep within yourselves to find your weaknesses and being willing to work on them, the decision to be true partners who are willing to protect themselves, each other and the marriage, the determination to bring passion back into your relationship, etc. All of this could have been accomplished WITHOUT the added pain and complication of an affair. It may seem like a minor point, even a technicality, but it is an important point to the BS - at least to this one.
Tact is for people who aren't witty enough to be sarcastic.
First, I do want to say what a good thing you have done no matter what the future holds for your M. I am only on like page 3 of this thread & keep thinking to myself that your BH has not hit the anger phase yet. So while you may think he is letting you off too easy right now & are not sure you respect his attitude.....I think you need to be prepared for his anger when it hits. You may then wish for the "letting you off easy" phase to come back.
This is also the time when he may want lots more details. (or not...everyone is different & he may never want to know more)
Also, can I suggest something that may be more beneficial for your R process?!?! And I may be wrong here but I feel that you may need to put stop-signs on your posts for a while where only waywards can respond. Not saying anything negative about the betrayed people responding, as I actually empathize with both sides when reading their replys, but I feel that you need only the wayward help at this time, until you are further along in your withdrawal from you AP!?!?!
Then later, maybe you would be ready to get the shit from the betrayed side more & not feel so defensive????
And again, betrayed responders, please do not take offense. Just trying to help "Confused" out with her healing process. I understand where you are coming from but I am not sure she is ready to hear it from that side yet?!?!?
Any waywards out there that can help elaborate on this or just point-blank say I don't know what I am talking about.....please step forward. No hard feelings......this is just the jive I am feeling from "Confused's" responses to the betrayed posters & I worry that it will discourage her coming back for help.
"Confused".....you have come so far & are doing so well, & there are so many people here who can help you. The one thing I have noticed about reading the wayward side though.....the wayward responders will call you out on your bullshit, but they have BTDT so it is easier to take than getting the flack from the betrayed side stating scumbag, etc., etc., etc.
JMO....& I am known to be wrong from time to time. LOL
Sending hugs & strength yours & your BH's way!!!!
Hang in there & keep posting!!! We care & want to help!!!