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Featured in The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph and other newspapers today is the sorry tale of corruption in high places which threatens to "dynamite" the French political establishment
This cannot at all help Chirac's referendum campaign as 47 people have been in court today – some of them his closest former political allies – on trial over a vast "kickback" scheme allegedly run from city hall while Chirac was mayor. And, to add to the embarrassment, on of those in the dock, Guy Drut, is now a member of the team coordinating the Paris Olympic bid.
The case involves Chirac's RPR (Rally for the Republic - now UMP) party, whose officials were alleged to be siphoning off millions of pounds in bribes from construction companies in exchange for contracts worth £2.8bn to build and maintain secondary schools in the Paris area. Altogether, £60m in bribes between 1989 and 1996 - the year after Mr Chirac's 18-year tenure at city hall ended – is estimated to have been paid out
Four former RPR ministers, including Guy Drut - the 1976 Olympic 110m hurdles gold-medallist - 24 company bosses and several high-ranking party officials are among the accused. Civil servants, businessmen and public works executives are also accused of benefiting from the scam, dubbed the "lyceé dossier". Most have admitted that they knew of the scam, and if convicted of a range of corruption offences they could face up to ten years in jail.
Chirac, often known as l'escroc, remains immune from prosecution, or even questioning, for as long as he remains president. And, despite statements by investigating judges in the case that they had "strong and concordant evidence" that he was at the very least aware of the scheme, he has consistently dismissed any suggestion of his being implicated as malicious and unfounded nonsense.
But his credibility is not helped when Michel Roussin, Chirac's chief of staff for more than a decade - both while the president was mayor of Paris and prime minister – is accused of "complicity in and receipt of the proceeds of corruption".
Louise Yvonne Casetta of the RPR is also one of those accused. She was already at the centre of another party funding scandal involving fictitious jobs at the Paris town hall, which caused the downfall of former prime minister Alain Juppé. As the RPR's unofficial treasurer, she has already testified that it was Mr Roussin's responsibility to inform Mr Chirac of all corporate "gifts" to the party.
Further evidence of the president's involvement came in accusations by a former property developer and senior RPR official, Jean-Claude Méry, made public in 2000. In a videotaped confession, Mr Méry, who died of cancer in 1999, accused Mr Chirac of setting up the covert fundraising system. He said he had helped many companies to win city hall contracts in return for the bribes, usually of around 1.5 to 2 percent of a contract's value.
Describing how he once handed over a suitcase containing £500,000 to Roussin in Chirac's presence, Méry said that total payments to the RPR reached "£3.5m to £4m every year for more than seven years, all under my direction". "We worked only on orders from Mr Chirac," Méry added on the hour-long tape.
Other former Paris officials have also implicated Chirac in their testimony. The former deputy director of the city's public works department, François Ciolina, told investigators that Chirac was "the inspiration" for the scam, and that the coffers of the RPR party were "the main beneficiary".
However, illustrating the corrupt nature of French politics, Chirac's right wing party is not the only one involved. Prosecutors allege that his party received 1.2 percent in "kickbacks" while the Socialists got 0.8 percent, which explains why the Left have been muted in their criticisms of official corruption.
Now, with the investigation having started in 1997, the trial is due to run through until the end of July, and may have a significant impact on the referendum, where the constitution is being labelled as Chirac's project. Just for once, there seems as if there might be some justice, with the mighty EU project being brought down by the venality of French politicians.
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Gallic chickens home to roost
Featured in The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph and other newspapers today is the sorry tale of corruption in high places which threatens to "dynamite" the French political establishment


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Group Trip July 28 2007 - August 4, 2007 @ Hedonism II Negril Jamaica
Escape to Eden Vacations is proud to host Chicago's Premier Swinger's Club, Club Meet 4 More, to Hedonism II for a wild adult and sexy week of sinfully amazing fun! Club Meet4More is a private, adult social club in Chicago Illinois, hosting private on premise parties for upscale, committed couples and uninhibited single ladies sharing common lifestyle interests.
The Club's goal is to provide a safe, friendly and sociable environment for all who attend, feel free to introduce yourself to our group of friendly couples, and single ladies; If you're a bit nervous, we can always do the honors of introducing you to whomever you'd like to meet; If ethnic variety, and choice is what you're looking for, our club is one of the most culturally diverse groups in the Chicago area, and we provide various locations to make new friends, create new experiences, and share special times with other committed couples and groups. We do not imply or guarantee that you will experience an erotic encounter by attending our events, as this is by mutual consent only. Discrimination, harassment, and drunken behavior towards any couple, or single will get you banned from attending all future Club Meet4More sponsored events.
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Interview with Trudy Jean Evans
Trudy joins Jim as he broadcasts live from the third annual Administaff Small Business Classic to talk about putting practices in place to keep order in your small business as it grows.
Category: Management Fundamentals
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How do values contribute to business success? Trudy Evans joins Jim Blasingame to talk about the power of establishing core values of a small business that inspire employees and make customers want to come back.
What does it take for a small business to make it 15 years? Trudy Evans joins Jim Blasingame to reveal the secrets to success that have allowed her to reach a 15 year anniversary of her small business.
Find your success by aggregating the success of others. Trudy Evans joins Jim Blasingame to explain why kaleidoscope leaders understand their success is predicated on helping others to become successful leaders.
Mono-faceted leaders are dinosaurs. Trudy Jean Evans joins Jim Blasingame to reveal the six kinds of leadership styles that, when practiced when needed, results in what she calls "Kaleidoscope Leadership."
If you are shy, use social media for networking. Trudy Jean Evans joins Jim Blasingame to discuss using emotional intelligence to take advantage of social media as a networking tool.


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Dupont Fabros Tech (NYSE:DFT)
At less than $3, if you ascribe $0 value to the construction in progress and land ($328 million in book value), then the implied cap rate on the 5 income producing assets is greater than 11%. For triple net lease properties, with high credit tenants, in long-term leases, 11% cap rate is too high, even in this economy and credit environment.
Even today, the fair NAV, using above market cap rates and being reasonable about the value of unfinished real estate, is well in excess of $6 and is closer to $9.
The stock is below $3 today because DFT management has come up short. Leasing on CH1 has been slower than expected. Development on NJ1, SC1, and ACC4 has been halted (due to credit markets and high costs of capital). Additionally, DFT suspended its dividend. The combination of these facts and the scary prospect of capital and liquidity shortfalls has frustrated and scared off investors. And I'm grateful for this reality, because now DFT is trading at a substantial discount to fair value.
The two founders of DFT collectively have economic interests in over 30% of the equity. Executives were buying shares after they announced a dividend suspension in November at around $2 per share. It would be great to get that price again.
DFT is likely to pay around $0.40 per share in dividends in 2009, given its REIT distribution requirements.
Basically, at today's price you can buy some of the best assets available at a substantial discount and get the development pipeline and all future growth for free while your investment is directly aligned with management's incentives all in a capital efficient structure (REIT).
Lastly, fundamentals in the data center space remain strong. The credit crunch slows supply and demand continues to outpace it at a sizable rate according to industry research. This bodes well for future pricing and for demand for DFT's pipeline. Furthermore, the contacts, technological sophistication, and capital intensity create substantial barriers to entry into this specialized real estate niche.
Be prepared for volatility. Be excited about making multiples of your money...


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Get this: The national engineering firm in the driver's seat to oversee Miami-Dade's $1.6 billion overhaul of the county's monumentally dilapidated sewer system has a history of violating the Clean Water Act, mishandling radioactive waste, billing for phantom work, and paying kickbacks. In most pl ... More >>
A Colorado-based company vying for a lucrative contract to oversee Miami-Dade County's multi-billion dollar sewer system renovation projects admitted it defrauded the federal government earlier this year. Back in March CH2M Hill and one its subsidiaries agreed to pay $18.5 million in civil fines and ... More >>
Earlier this week, the Miami-Dade County Commission approved an 8 percent rate increase to water and sewer bills, which means homeowners will begin paying about $4 more a month on their average water bill. The funds are meant to cover the cost of issuing $4.2 billion -- yes that's with a b -- in bon ... More >>
As Miami-Dade County moves forward with its $12.6 billion plan to fix the aging water and sewer collection system, Federal Chief Judge Frederico Moreno yesterday awarded a significant victory to the Biscayne Bay Waterkeeper, an environmental group that claims the county proposal does not address sea ... More >>
This much is clear: Miami's sewers are deteriorating, and millions of gallons of wastewater are polluting Biscayne Bay. The county has proposed a $1.5 billion fix, but one local environmental group has now filed suit in federal court to stop the plan.Key Biscayne resident Judi Koslen and the environ ... More >>
Judi Kolson used to love paddling the waters of Biscayne Bay until a recent outing allegedly gave her a leg infection after her skin came into contact with contaminated water. Now, the breast cancer survivor from Key Biscayne won't jump back into the ocean.In an affidavit filed in Miami federal cour ... More >>
Sh*t is hitting the fan. First, there were the leaks: over 65 of them in the past two years, inundating neighborhoods across South Florida with putrid water. Then came the bill: over $1.1 billion to fix the county's aging sewage system. The crap crisis has become so bad that last week the county ann ... More >>
This Valentine's weekend might be your best chance in years to eat these aphrodisiacs.
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SEA: "There is no X in Seattle"
- fooey Apr 19, 2008 09:11 AM
In a post in the recent "La Carta de Oxaca" thread, someone said:
"Enough with the blanket "there is no X in Seattle" screeds."
I'm interested in what others think, so I posted a new topic.
My reply:
When I first moved to Seattle in 2005, I wondered why chowhounds would constantly harp on how much better the food was outside of Seattle.
After being here for three years, I find myself defending those that say exactly that: "there is no X in Seattle".
At first I thought there was a variety of "Portland-Seattle-Vancouver" rivalry in place (or even a tri-cities solidarity else wise): "If you can't find it in Seattle, try this place in Vancouver." That's not true. When people say try Vancouver or try Portland, they are saying that Seattle doesn't compare favorably.
There are some good restaurants in Seattle, sure, but for every good one, IMO, there's a dearth of inferior ones.
Most cities have a "food bell curve", a number of adequate to good places at the center of the range with the usual outliers on either side. The curve in Seattle looks like a long tail with left shift: a number of good ones at the high end and a whole bunch of crap on the way down.
I think the reason the PNW board has so much SEA volume is because most of us chowhounds have become wary, indeed exasperated, of finding great chow.
I have no inhibition on spending a lot of money for great food, but I've had few experiences that would nullify my solidarity with those who are brave enough to admit the truth: "there is no X in Seattle".
This thread will generate some heated responses, no doubt, but what do others think? I think the generalization holds. I think restaurants here can grow from comparisons with other cities. I think they must.
I wrote that there is no good Tex Mex in Seattle on that thread, and I stand by that statement. I still love the food scene here though, and don't agree with your overall premise that there are more inferior food joints then good ones in Seattle. It just has its own specialties and regional favorites.0
good higher-end Italian places: Cafe Juanita is one exception but they are far away (from downtown at least) and don't seem to change their menu much at all, also not enough rock-your-world pasta choices. Pasta at Barolo tends to be thick and gluey and their osso buco could be a lot better imo. Best pasta i've had around here was the crab ravioli at Cascadia but it's way overpriced. (ok, i do like the lasagna at Cafe Lago, but that's another isolated instance)
Truly crispy/tender baby pig and truly soupy/delicate Shanghai soup dumplings (this has been discussed numerous times before)
Sushi w/ creative toppings-- Seattle hasn't quite caught onto this yet, unlike places on the east coast that have taken the idea and run wild with it
Great casual Japanese-- the late Takohachi came closest, now we are left with much inferior places...other cities do much better with this (i'm thinking e.g. San Jose, Boston, where these places have lines out the door every day)
PS. Where can i go for a good grilled weisswurst (veal sausage)? besides People's Pub (the one at Feierabend isn't very good imo)0
re: barleywino
There is no good jewish deli food in Seattle. Goldbergs in Bellevue and the sandwich guy in the market are passable for corned beef on rye but you can't get a decent knish or bowl of chicken noodle/matzoh ball soup (made with schmaltz). For my brother's sake, I will mention chopped liver too. Please someone, prove me wrong.0
re: amyh18
it may be my bubby and his came from the same shtetl but i find the knishes (just had a roasted garlic version yesterday) and matzoh ball soup at the new york deli in pike place market to be very good. his rye bread is the best in the city, the half-sour pickles are addictive and the chopped liver is first-rate.
goldberg's is hopeless on many levels and every other soup in town (i've tried them all) cannot approach that at the new york deli0
re: barleywino
High-end Italian - what about Il Terrazzo Carmine?
Casual Japanese - there might not be a single replacement for Takohachi, but what about Fort St. George and Maekawa Bar?
Agreed on the lack of Shanghainese etc.0
I dunno. I've been here since '91 and can say unequivocally that the food scene is magnitudes ahead of where it was then. The flip-side is that we've lost a lot of those marginal, quirky places that could only survive in a one-horse town. Never again will we see the likes of a Sorry Charlies, a Dog House, Chubby & Tubby's, or Cloud Room. Now add Sunset Bowl to that list as of last week.
Griping about one's local food is a time-honored tradition. Unless of course you move to San Francisco, where you can loudly proclaim you're the best on every level.0
re: Finspot
I think griping about the food is something mostly reserved for people who moved here from elsewhere and want Seattle to be just like where they came from. I'm a well-traveled native, and I guess it just doesn't occur to me to look at what's wrong with the food scene here. *shrug*0
re: allisonw
There could be something to that, as I've lived in New Orleans, Chicago, Anchorage, Honolulu, and Lake Tahoe. In all of these places, after I lived there for a while, I developed go-to places, often more than one per cuisine: These two for Thai, this for Italian, this for great pizza, awesome Chinese here and here, even if they're both hole-in-wall establishments, etc.
I wouldn't have to try so hard to come up with "go to" restaurants that were consistently good to great AND affordable.
In Seattle, it's not like this at all, even after three years. For me, it's a much more difficult process, more granular.
Instead of developing a quick-list of "go to" resturants, I have "go to" menu items. I don't trust restaurants here, I guess, after having so much overpriced (and under-delicous) food.
Caveat emptor: I just realized this could say more about my palate development than the food scene: my tastes are more refined. As a result, I'm more particular. That's quite possible. I'll have to think on it some more.0
re: fooey
It's also a Chowhound thing. Go to the Boston, NY, San Francisco, LA forums and you see the same thing. There I've seen people argue there's no good Chinese in SF, no good Mexican in Orange County, no good anything in Boston, and no consensus on what's good in NY. Which is all pretty funny because there are so many ex-pats from those cities on the Seattle board raving about the Chinese in SF or the Mexican in SoCal or the Italian in Boston/NY (just try getting a recommendation for Italian for the latter two cities. You'll be told it's all tourist trap, bad Italian-American, except for the Batali restaurants.).
And note to Finspot: Look at the SF board!! I go there frequently for work and have given up looking at that forum for recommendations. According to them the Mexican sucks, the Chinese sucks, the Vietnamese sucks...
I think there's an awful lot of nostalgia that affects people's memories of the food that they left "back home," too.
I wouldn't argue that Seattle has top notch everything but if anyone else travels regularly to a variety of other American cities, you'd probably agree we have a good restaurant scene here, especially considering that we are not such a big city.0
re: christy319
Thanks, I'll take a look. I was thinking more specifically of my friends there (lived in SF & Berkeley for a few years) who are Bay Area cheerleaders to the point of annoyance. It's good to hear they're passing around the humility doses.0
re: christy319
Coming from north county san diego, Seattle is a freakin' food mecca.
(although I still can't find a decent fish taco!)0
re: Jeters
I hear you brother. I'm in Portland wondering the same thing.
(Vista High, c/o '96)0
I'm a native too, but have lived in other cities and traveled extensively. There are some things seriously lacking in our area.
1. Good NY Jewish Deli. Some are ok, but nothing is authentic.
2. Mexican, not a taco truck rec
3. Upscale Chinese
4. Greek (Lola is good but not real traditional or afforable)
5. East coast diners
There are also many things we do just as well, or better than other cities:
1. Fresh fish and seafood
2. Asian fusion
3. Espresso bars
4. Brew pubs0
re: lisaf
For good Greek in this X town I recommend: Divine (updated) and Yanni's (traditional).0
My standard retort to this line of griping is that Seattle is about the same size as Jacksonville or Indianapolis. We punch way, way above our weight in the culinary world.
(Of course there are things that are better in other cities due to various ethnic diasporas, that's always true of any place.)
I think the reason the PNW board has so much traffic, frankly, is that the local population is relatively educated, internet savvy, and interested in food. And hooray for that.0
My view on this sort of griping is that while I often understand the sincere motivation behind a "there is no x" claim, such claims are frequently false, and more often, entirely unhelpful for perhaps the chief purpose of this board: providing tips for locating good eats--in the geographic locale in question.
Those of us with multi-city experience often can't help ourselves: when we know something is way better somewhere elsewhere, we mention it. Sometimes, a particular item or cuisine is more than way better elsewhere. It is so much better elsewhere that it renders the Seattle attempt a pathetic flailing attempt at the commodity in question. see, e.g. the oft-cited soupless soup dumplings that are inexplicably served at even the better chinese places in Seatttle. I'll credit a "there is no XLB in Seattle" claim as such.
But, claims of "there is no good pizza" or "there is no good thai" or "there is no good sushi", which we do see here, are utter nonsense. What is the basis for comparison? Just because one or two metropolises (usually SF or NYC or LA) make a better version of x, and the speaker happens to have lived there formerly, doesen't mean there is no good x here. One needs to keep things in perspective. Terrier makes the essential point--try finding sushi in Indianapolis or dosai in Jacksonville or dim sum in Miami...and so on and so on. Seattle is the 15th largest metro area in the U.S. Anyone want to say its food scene is only #15? Per capita, Seattle's scene is formidable.0
re: equinoise
Formidable across the spectrum?
Getting to hair-splitting at this point, and almost redefining the topic in the following, but...
I agree that Seattle, for its size, has much to offer, but I feel only at the higher end.
There's a definite skew to Seattle's offerings. I don't think the center of the Seattle food spectrum compares favorably with other cities of comparable size, which compete and compete well across the spectrum.0
re: equinoise
Good points to make - I moved here from Louisville KY, and before then Miami FL, Raleigh NC, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio, where I grew up, and I think there are certainly good things, and good representations of those foods here. Did anybody mention Hiroshi's in Eastlake for Sushi. Don't know how 'true to form' it is on the scale, but I tell you I haven't had sushi/sashimi any fresher in my past domiciles.0
There are things that I wish were available here, namely Xiao Long Bao, warm-rice sushi, pastrami dips, and Beard Papa. I really, really wish they were here, but I don't think we have the volume of demand here to support a good operation. Each of those requires a large volume of customers because the products cannot sit around waiting long. I've resigned myself to anticipating my trips to those places that have those goodies.0
The problem, as I see it, is the fact that Seattle is the least diverse city I have ever lived in. Obviously, it takes people who are familiar with regional cuisines as both consumers and creators to have truly exceptional versions of said cuisines.
A form of darwinism takes place where restaurants making mediocre food die out because the market does not support them. For this to occur, the market must be educated to know what exceptional versions of these foods are. If the market accepts the mediocre, these places will not die and set the standard for what future restaurants need to achieve to survive. This is precisely the reason why these discussions are relevant; especially in a forum where people are striving for the "best."
I, personally, have beaten to death the fact that Seattle is horrible for all regions of Chinese food. Add to that list Mexican, and Jewish Deli; and you have my list of of areas where Seattle is extremely lacking. However, as I stated above, I attribute this to the lack of diversity in Seattle, and lack of pressure from the market for the truly exceptional. We just don't have enough Chinese, Mexican, and Jewish people here to make a difference in the market demand.
The other area where I find Seattle to be lacking is the truly high end. A recent thread was asking about a Seattle equivalent to Providence in LA. While I found my seafood tasting menu at Providence to be sub-par, I would have easily recommended Mistral as the go-to place to have a meal beyond what the original poster had at Providence. But, alas, Mistral is no more. The death of Mistral makes me especially sad because it was the last bastion of Seattle which provided a true tasting menu experience. The Herbfarm experience I would describe as more "theater" than tasting menu; not to mention the whole banquet feeling of the whole experience. Great restaurants such as Veil, Crush, and Union all began their lives with tasting menus available but all were phased out (without prior arrangements) becasue the demand simply did not exist for them. I personally find that Chef's tasting menus to be the true test of what a chef can do and is usually the height of any chef's culinary achievements for any given night. People living in Seattle need to demand the best from these talented chef's and support them when they are trying to deliver that.
My 2 cents.0
re: hhlodesign
hhlo- I concur 100% on the restaurant darwinism as a root cause of mediocrity. Sometimes I think about what might happen if a place like say, Paseo, was in New York. What would most likely happen is, noting Paseo's popularity, waits, and relatively uncompetitive pricing, a place called "Mateo's" serving similar items would open up nearby and begin selling Paseo's sort of cuban-inspired stuff, but for a good measure cheaper. The food might not be quite as good at first, but people waiting in line might give the newcomer a try--why not save some time and money? Then, one day, Paseo's might just start slippin'. Buzz would emerge that Mateo's had superceded the incumbent, and soon enough, the landscape would change.
P.s. Seattle's sichuan food is "horrible"? 7 Stars; Szechuan Chef; Bamboo Garden; Szechuan 99; Sichuanese Cuisine. All horrible? Grand Sichuan of NY or one of the SGV places just leaves these entirely in the dust with no redeeming qualities?
Fooey- Narrow it down for me--what type of low-end or mid-range eating was it that you feel Seattle sorely lacks that was better in New Orleans, Chicago, Anchorage, Honolulu, and Lake Tahoe.0
re: equinoise
I've been to all of the above. All Horrible? No, I may have overstated to make a point. All mediocre to bad? Yes! I've had Ma Pao Tofu without Szechuan peppercorns, waiters who have never heard of water boiled beef (swai xu nio rho), twice cooked pork (hua guo rho) that was made from the wrong cut of pork and cooked ONCE, and numerous other embarrassments that no proud Szechuanese would ever allow to happen.
I still go to these places when I am craving Szechuan food, but would never take my mom to any of them (and that is the true test). In fact I just met Fuschia Dunlop yesterday and could not make a single recommendation to her for Chinese in Seattle.0
re: hhlodesign
I'm sure that mom knows best, but that sounds like an aggregate lowlight reel to me rather than an accurate depiction of a single night's experience at the better names on this list. I too have been disappointed in the lack of peppercorns at Sichuanese Cuisine, Szechuan Noodle Bowl (none) and 7 Stars (very sparse). I think the bellevue restaurants do a much better job with that. I've had the water boiled beef (I think) at Bamboo Garden, and I enjoyed it alot. But I have no Sichuanese experience outside Seattle, so maybe I'm missing something.
Maybe send Fuschia to Shi'an on Lake City...I've heard there's no shaanxi food in the SGV...maybe none in London either!0
re: hhlodesign
Her cookbooks kick ass, by the way!0
re: equinoise
I would argue that for your scenario to hold true, the public must be foolish enough to accept and prefer the "impostor" to the originator. On a recent trip to Taipei, I stood in line with many others for 2 hours to eat at Ding Tai Fung (some consider the best XLB in the world); even though there were a myriad of places on the same street selling the same but inferior product at lower prices. The same was true in Hong Kong were we stood in a line of 30+ to buy egg tarts from a famous stand, while other stands stood by empty. It can be said that both of these cities are food obsessed. The standards of the general public are high, which causes the standards of the supply to strive to remain high to meet the demand.0
re: hhlodesign
Din Tai Fung in Taipei - I just ate there a week ago. We went at an odd hour and got a table and food right away. And it was at their original Xinyi store too!
Although it pains me to say it - it was probably one of their off days and the XLBs I had in their LA outlet tasted better. Everything else was pretty nice. Although there is another XLB/noodle shop just one block away (I have their business card somewhere, but I can't find it now) which served food of similar quality at much lower prices with no wait (but still pretty popular with the locals). My friends/relatives all told me to head to that place instead. So the "imposter" theory does hold water. DTF has been in business for a long time - certainly some of their intellectual property has been leaked through years of employee turnover and whatnot...0
re: HungWeiLo
similar situation in Shanghai-- locals say the local hole-in-the-wall xlb shop Jia Jia Tang Bao (behind the Radisson New World) is better than DTF; i found it to be better than the LA DTF anyway. Imposters are good because they force the original place to up their game.0
re: hhlodesign
A small consolation: I think Crush has phased their tasting menu back in (but i haven't been in a while to confirm). I think it's telling that the local chefs who have the potential to do good tasting menus have wised up to the local demand and are instead making a killing from casual "comfort" food like Tavolata (and the upcoming Jerry Traunfeld place which is purportedly more casual)0
re: barleywino
As is William Belickis' new place. Although he will set aside a space for Mistral-like service.
You can't really fault the owner/chefs for catering to the demand. They have to make a living first and foremost. But you have to admire guys like David Chang who makes whatever he wants to make and if people don't like it they can "go fuck themselves." And while not everyone "gets it" or even likes it, enough people do so that he can make a good living creating exceptional product that he is proud of every night.
It is a sad commentary that we had a place such as Mistral that has served me meals that rival meals I've had at some of the best restaurants in the world; which did its best to survive for 9+ years, but had to move forward with a different plan because the city just was unable to appreciate what it had.0
re: hhlodesign
it certainly didn't help that the dining room at Mistral was one of the most unappealing in the city .. it was not old school enough nor contemporary enough. It had NO charm. I loved the food and the service but it was like eating at a suburban great aunt's. With all the attention to the food 1/10 of that to the room and well you might be singing a different song.0
re: hhlodesign
David Chang gets to cook in a city of 8 milllion people (not including 'burbs), not to mention the fact it's a tourist mecca. Seattle has less than 600K and sees far fewer visitors. It's easier for Chang to find an audience for what he's doing.0
re: barleywino
In March I celebrated my b-day with a tasting menu at Crush focusing on local foods and wines, which began with leek soup with fennel creme fraiche and kumamoto oysters and improved from there. Everything was fantastic...and a fair value...$60 for just the food...$40 for the wine pairings. Best meal I've had in Seattle.0
re: equinoise
Yes Jason Wilson is a very talented chef and can put together a wonderful tasting menu experience. I've had quite a few at Crush. But I feel that people who appreciate a true tasting menu and are willing to pay for it are few and far between in Seattle. Hence the need to make prior arrangements for them at even the best restaurants. While many people would enjoy them, restaurants such as The French Laundry, Momofuku Ko, Alinea, and Lumier (pre-Boulud) that offer tasting menus only, would not have enough demand in Seattle to survive. Speaking as a proud 9 year Seattle resident, I feel that from a culinary standpoint, Seattle should be able to stand next to SF, NY, Chicago, and Vancouver (well, maybe not NY). If they can support this type of restaurant, why can't we?0
re: hhlodesign
These are Metro Areas
Chicago - 9,505,748
Bay Area - 6,783,760
Seattle - 3,309,347
That's your biggest reason right there. Vancouver is slightly different because it's the biggest west coast city in an entire country.
The other thing to remember is that Seattle is by far the most casual big city I've ever lived in. People go out to dinner in jeans in Birkenstocks (Not me, but I've seen it). The kind of formality that goes with a tasting menu is not something that really works well here.0
re: vanillagorilla
Thank you Vanilla .. the sheer density is one thing .. and then in places like SF, NYC, Chicago where there is a high percentage of apartment dwellers, restaurants are the living-dining rooms of most people. When I lived in NY people thought I was a freak for having a dinner party at my apt.0
re: oliveoyl
(Vancouverite here.)
I have been reading this thread with great interest because I love Seattle and eating in Seattle. Your city kicks major gustatory ass.
I just thought I'd throw my pendatic 2cents (CAD$) because I believe it may shed some light.
Ethnicity and Demographics - this has been touched upon earlier in this thread. I've dug up some numbers... In Seattle (2004), 17% of the population is Asian while in Vancouver it is 41% (2007)...29% is Chinese.
Urbanism - Vancouver's downtown has a very dense residential population. It is the densest in North America - about as dense as Manhattan's and it has four times the downtown residential population as Seattle. This feeds a (very) competitive restaurant scene right downtown.
Asian Suburbs - As a result of a series of circumstances (the repatriation of Hong Kong back to China being the most impactful), Vancouver ended up with some affluent Asian suburbs - one of which has some decent XLB.
re: hhlodesign
I know that Union still will do a tasting menu if you ask in advance. I'm pretty sure Veil and Crush would do it as well.0
Here's my take, and in fact it has very little to do with food at all. From working on an up and coming list site where people are allowed to be creative and post on numerous topics, one list theme dominates, negativity. The fact is, it is much easier to be negative than positive. For whatever reason people feel like they are distinguishing themselves more by saying that "I don't like this" or "we don't have that". The fact is, Seattle rates very favorably to all major cities in terms of food. We do some things well and others are lacking. If things are SOO bad and if you can't find "X" here, well maybe people need to do something about it. I really enjoy this site for the posts and heads up as to places to try and things to eat, but posts about Seattle lacking certain foods that we don't currently have will not materialize these foods or establishments. What we have is a lot of great places and I look forward to discussing more of them. While there may be no "X" is Seattle, there sure are a lot of complainers.0
I just wanted to let you all know that I have enjoyed reading this thread. As of late I have been visiting Chow less and less because of the bickering that many of the thread eventually come to or the snide remarks- or lack of real insight or suggestion. The discussion of this board is viewpoint constructive arguments in my opinion and I find that delightful vs. catty. Thank you all- You have made me think.0
As the poster who made the "there is no X in Seattle" comment that sparked this thread, I am pleased that my remark prompted such an interesting discussion.
I've been in Seattle for about eight months now. Before that I lived in New York for five years. I once saw someone proclaim on the New York chow board that there is no good pizza in Manhattan. Now, on this board, I'm seeing similar statements about Seattle.
La Carta de Oaxaca isn't as good as Mexican food I've had in L.A., but it's pretty good. Via Tribunali isn't as good as pizza I've had in New York, but it's pretty good. And Tamarind Tree would hold its own in New York, L.A., San Francisco or anywhere else.
I'm all for seeking out the best chow, but I also recognize that not every meal can be life-altering. If someone posts here asking about good Thai food in Seattle, that person isn't looking to be told that there is no real Thai food in Seattle--he/she is asking for recommendations about the best Seattle has to offer. We're all better served by focusing on the best of what's here than by complaining about what's not. Happy eating.0
re: Earl of Sandwich
I have to agree with earlier posts that I think a lot of what is said has to due with the fact that this board is a unique set of diners. We have higher standards than most people who eat out, and most of us can actually pass judgement on what is authentic from one part of the world or another becuase we are also travellers. So we critique.
I just returned from a business trip to Nashville, where I was told that PF Changs was the best Asian food they'd ever had. HH, I don't disagree that Seattle is less diverse than SF, LA or NYC, but have you looked at any of the major cities in between? Dallas, Denver, etc?? Seven stars rocks in comparison to anything available in middle america.
Another point - certain cities are known for their specialties. If you could get the same type of pizza as nyc, or the best bbq or tex mex, or if all the dumplings were supreme, where would the joy be in returning to these other cities? I am a victim of missing the NYC scene, from pizza, italian and deli, to late nite fine dining. some folks from nyc think the pizza could never be the same elsewhere because of the water, it makes the crust distinct. my point is that if the same choices were available everywhere, how boring would that be??
seattle has some great stuff to call our own, and let me tell you, my friends that live in other cities such as Raliegh, Boston and Denver are amazed at the opportunities and choices we have.0
re: bluedog67
I can't say that I've ever had Chinese food in any of the flyover states; and I really don't ever plan to. But yes, you are probably right in that Seven Stars Pepper is better than any Szechuan food I can find in Dallas. But we can have so much more. Is it so bad to vocalize our desire for more than what Seattle can offer? If we only compare ourselves to what's worse without looking at what's better; where is the motivation to improve what we have?
As Seattle continues to grow and prosper, the culinary scene will only improve. This being the case because of the influx of people of various backgrounds bringing their native cuisines with them; but also because the local population will continue to grow as well and raise their standards for the food they demand. Again, this is the reason these kinds of discussions are so valuable, and if we can't have them here, where can we have them?0
re: hhlodesign
You don't even need to go to the flyover states. There is a "Chinese" restaurant in virtually every town in the U.S. with population of over 1,000. Just do a quick roadtrip through eastern Oregon or eastern Washington and that should approximate your experience through the flyover states. My favorite was the chop suey in Lakeview, OR (which was a gray-colored mess of something), or ordering steamed rice in Crescent City, CA (no one orders anything other than fried rice there, apparently).
One of aunts who couldn't cook worth a damn went up to Whitehorse, Yukon and opened a "Chinese" restaurant there about 15 years ago. It got really popular locally and she retired a millionaire.
The point is - the bar is just set pretty low outside the major metro areas on the two coasts, and we're obviously spoiled living in the fortunate areas.0
re: bluedog67
I was in Cedar Rapids, Iowa for a business trip. What passes for Thai food over there is scary. The "triple evil" plate had not one dot of red on it.
But then, I got a New York at The Roadhouse Grill (a chain with 400 restaurants), and it was much better than, say, Outback back home and at a fraction of the price. And I was told that was the best restaurant in Cedar Rapids (Iowa City to the south had much more ethnic offerings due to its proximity to a university)0
re: Earl of Sandwich
Mr. Chorizo and Earl of Sandwich,
I started typing a response to this only to realize that I was saying pretty much the exact same thing I said about a year ago on this very same topic. So here you go:
"I live in Seattle as well; and also LOVE it. That being said, should one ignore facts and blindly recomend the best that our beloved city has to offer even when said offerings are below par? As equinoise states so eloquently, if we fail to make comparisons to standards set in other cities, we are only denying a valid discussion of what good food is.
I'll readliy admit that I commonly recommend that people drive 2 hours north rather than succumb to the poor Chinese food available in wonderful Seattle. I see this as a rather realistic option that is worth considering (as opposed to flying to Taiwan for soup dumplings at Ding Tai Fung).
Let's take the example of soup dumplings. Anyone who has had the pleasure of tasting a real soup dumpling (xiau long bau) knows that nothing in Seattle can be compared to a correctly prepared one. Either the skin is too thick, the skin is too thin so the soup has leaked out, the pork is underseasoned, the soup is barely there, the pork filling is barely there, the soup is mostly fat; any number of misteps that I've experienced anytime I've ordered soup dumplings in Seattle. So when someone asks for a soup dumpling recommendation on these boards, should we ignore the fact that Richmond has over 4 restaurants that offer soup dumplings that rival those found in Shanghai; or steer them to a location in Seattle where what they will be served is mediocre at best?
I am quick to praise the numerous establishments in Seattle turning out incredible dishes, and hold that Seattle can be compared to some of the best american cities when speaking of certain cuisines. At the same time, it would be irresponsible to bury your head in the sand and not comment on the (limited) cuisines where most of Seattle's offerings are deficient."
As part of the original thread:0
re: hhlodesign
For clarity's sake, I still believe that comparing the merits of an item or cuisine available in Seattle against a better version available elsewhere is productive for educating eachother as to benchmarks for quality, affording perspective, and setting expectations.
Basically, I'm all for "Seattle's x is a far cry from [other city's] x, but for the best x in Seattle, go to...". What I think is a waste of time is "There is no x in seattle. Period."
Just to show I'm not just a mere native cheerleader, let me paste in my own personal "x" list which I made for someone else a few months back:
-NYC quality pizza slice vendor operating at late hours near entertainment districts. Many of them spaced widely for maximum convenience.
-East Coast style-deli selling hot and cold hoagies employing proper rolls and charging reasonable prices. Preferably using simple designations for sandwiches ( i.e. "Italian Hoagie") and not thematic overwrought ones (i.e. "The Tony Soprano"). In the mornings they have egg sandwiches on proper rolls made to order (e.g. salt, pepper, ketchup).
-CHARCOAL-FIRED Korean BBQ of first rate quality.
-XIAO LONG BAO. Other Shanghai delights too.
-NYC quality bagels.
-High quality, well-aged Italian-American homestyle place serving broccoli rabe, chicken cutlets (marsala, francese, etc.) with pasta on the side with good "gravy" and meatballs. Seven Fish Dinner at Christmas time. Lasagna with "actual tomato sauce, not fancy truffle oil and mushrooms...There is no reason at all for Maggiano's Little Italy to have three hour waits."
-Italian deli making fresh "mutz" daily by hand. Serving sandwiches with imported prosciutto and marinated sun-dried tomatoes kept in jars. wood veneer panels, decorated with icons, esp. Mary, photos of the 1990 Azurri World Cup team. Frequented by shuffling foreign-born septuagenarians muttering in southern dialects and over the hill time-wasters with protracted mob connections, or at least, such pretenses.
-Authentic pan-Indian in Seattle city limits (Spice Route would qualify). Insipid Seattle curry houses be damned!
-First rate South Indian/Doasi vendor in Seattle city limits.
-Multiple dope Thai spots serving faithful renditions of regional cuisines with unabashed spicing. E.g. southern peninsula, issan, etc.
-An outpost of Mandina's or other venerable, casual Cajun/creole spots from Naw'lins, serving magical gumbo, crawfish etoufee, jambalaya, etc. An adjunct bakery/market serving King Cakes, and well-dressed oyster po-boys.
-East LA/De Efe-style taco trucks with al pastor from the spit and other predictable delicacies. Many of them spaced widely for maximum convenience.
-True Hunan cuisine. Like LA's finest.
-Singapore-style street hawker centre. (we can dream...)
-Restaurant serving food produced from green roof(s) within Seattle city limits. That would really go over well here.
-West African restaurants, esp. Ghanian and Senegalese.
-Polish deli/diner serving mind-blowing pierogies, and to gild it, sausage varieties otherwise only available in Chicago or the old country.
-European style falafel counter with self-serving salad bar, readily prone to triple-dip abuse by stoner clientele. Too bad there are no stoners to be found here...This place wouldn't make a red cent. No, sir!0
re: equinoise
>>>Basically, I'm all for "Seattle's x is a far cry from [other city's] x, but for the best x in Seattle, go to...". What I think is a waste of time is "There is no x in seattle. Period."<<<
I agree.
As for your list, I'd love to have all that stuff in Seattle, but no city could possibly have everything you've mentioned! For one thing, if Seattle had the best NYC pizza and the best New Orleans Cajun and the best L.A. Mexican, those cities would cease to have their own specialties because they'd no longer be special.
Second, a lot of chowhounds would argue that even the cities home to the chow you've mentioned come up short. Go check out threads on the Manhattan board about pizza sometime. You'll find few hounds who believe that Manhattan is brimming with good New York pizza.
That being said, I'd be thrilled if we had half the stuff you mentioned! :)0
whithout the inherent culture in place, how can you hope for more than a synthesized
version of something that's native to a given area? I read the bbq in Seattle thread all the time; sort of a benchmark for what you all are talking about, isn't it?0
re: bbqboy
that was my point, better said, by bbqboy and earl. Local specialties are just that - local.
But HH raises a good point that if we as a community don't support/demand a higher standard it won't survive. Sort of like keeping your small businesses like non-chain bookstores afloat. This is most true for upscale. I personally think that for specialty cuisines, it is more of a diversity issue. I wouldn't know if a xlb dumpling was bad b/c i don't know what "authentic". I even at them in HK, but was there with americans and philipinos, so still couldn't tell you if it was the real deal. Point being, if there aren't enough people who are either from that culture, or know enough about a specific regional specialty, mediocrity will prevail.
so HH, just how does one demand better dumplings in this town?0
re: bluedog67
And more to HHs point, the size of the city and its median income mean that if we don't put pressure for more and better, the population and its more-than-adequate income mean lesser establishments survive to dish their slop day after day after day.0
re: bluedog67
Good question Bluedog. I can't say I have the answer. I do know the answer does not lie in being happy with what you have, and never yearning for more. I contend that it is the job of us, people who actively seek the best culinarily, to continue to have these discussions, in a public forum, about what good food is. It is a step in raising the standards of our beloved city in areas where it is deficient.
Also, in response to bbqboy's point; XLB is a local specialty of Shanghai. Ding Tai Fung came along in Taipei and synthesized this Shanghai specialty to be better than the original (according to some.) This was possible because the market in Taipei had extremely high standards for XLB and supported a business providing an exceptional product when it came about.0
re: hhlodesign
we need to find sympathetic restaurant managers and lobby them to hire or train a chef who can make them the way they are supposed to be made. i plan to start with the manager at O'Asian who has already agreed with me that xlb in China (not to mention Vancouver etc) are much better than those local to Seattle.0
re: barleywino
A Cantonese Dim Sum place may not be the best place to lobby. I wonder how many of the customers of restaurants with "Shanghai" in their name want Shanghai delicacies? Many already serve XLB's. It would be a matter of getting them to improve them.0
re: kirkj
Interesting point. O'Asian serves xlb, they just aren't very good (although better than, say, Shanghai Garden's, surprisingly, which i find inedible). Some of the better xlb i've had in the states have been at Cantonese dimsum places (i'm thinking say Yank Sing in SF). and for a brief while the best xlb in Seattle (relatively speaking) were at a Hakka restaurant, Doong Kong Lau. I think it may be more a function of size and volume of the place; if it's a small Mom-and-Pop operation, it;s less likely to invest in a professional chef with the training or experience to do good xlb.0
re: barleywino
ok i talked with the manager at O'Asian. He is no stranger to good xlb and how people wait in line for them at places in HK, Flushing NY, LA etc. He thinks there is not enough customer base up here in Seattle though (somebody needs to convince him otherwise!). Also he says it's difficult to convince a good chef to come down from Vancouver, given the weakness of the dollar, the difficulty of getting a visa and work permit etc. I told him there would be lines out the door (at least among Chinese) if he started serving real xlb. We have to keep hammering away at the restaurant managers/owners.0
re: barleywino
barley- I applaud your efforts. I have often thought to myself, with increasing seriousness, about stepping up my own personal lobbying/marketing efforts.
The challenge in Seattle is, it seems to me, explaining/marketing the authentic/regional items to the uninitiated in a way that both understands the apprehension of the customer and preserves the integrity of the cuisine. The only alternative is expediting a shift in local food culture toward eating more adventurously. I know that is not at all easy, but probably easier than changing the demographics, and the seeds have already been sown with the food network and tv shows like bourdain's and that of the bizarre food guy. One of the things I took away from my experience with the chinese menu at Bamboo Garden is that restaurant owners still underestimate the potential for experimental eating by their farang customers--potential they all but extinguish by making it a furtive experience that is banished to menus that they can't even read.
I don't understand O'Asian's economic logic, at least as to the proposition of just serving better XLB in the existing restaurant at O'Asian. Why is it too risky to just have a clinic or something for the staff to show techniques for simply physically forming the buns? A full-time Shanghai chef for oversight would be great, but it seems to me vast improvement could be made at low cost as a result of mere instruction.0
re: barleywino
I think you have to realize that some of these chefs that are in demand are quite prima donnas. Not only will they command upwards of an over-6-figures salary, they often demand a stake in the restaurant receipts. This is a very difficult proposition for the owner, and you can do some quick math in the back of your head to see how many orders of good XLB need to be filled before this whole thing makes business sense.
Yes - there are a healthy number of people in Seattle who would appreciate better-than-average XLB, but then there are not THAT many. The Seattle populace is said to be generally well-educated and well-exposed to many different cultures, but long lines still form out the door at the local Olive Garden and Claim Jumpers. It's a battle worth fighting, that's for sure - but I just don't see Seattle meeting the critical mass in terms of population required to support such endeavors.0
re: HungWeiLo
yeah i tried to tell the manager that, as the only xlb place in the Puget Sound area, they would draw in customers from far and wide (and probably take market share away from competing places like Imperial Garden). Places like Joe's Shanghai in NYC (and they're not even the best place in that area for xlb) do a huge business purely because they offer decent xlb. I would think O'Asian has deep enough pockets and a big enough customer base already that they can afford to invest in/gamble on something like this. Maybe if they get more customer requests for xlb (like more friendly pressure from chowhounds?), they will give it a shot. As far as instruction for the staff, that's a great idea, although i'm not sure exactly where they would find a competent and willing instructor.0
re: HungWeiLo
Do we even HAVE OG or Claim Jumpers in Seattle? I don't think I've seen either....0
re: allisonw
Both are no more than 15 minutes away, as nearby as Northgate and Southcenter Mall.0
re: HungWeiLo
The Olive Garden at North Gate closed.0
re: allisonw
Redmond Town Center has a Claim Jumper, and it is seriously awful. Death by carbs! Mashed potato portions to size of Volkswagen. Cornbread muffins bigger than your head...!0
re: barleywino
I think there is sort of misconception that XLB is "traditional" dim sum food. Generally, if you live in shanghai and you want XLB, you don't go to a dimsum joint, you go to that hole in the wall store down the street that ONLY makes XLB. It's kind of a specialized thing, and depends heavily on freshness.0
re: clearskies0810
yes, but unfortunately there is no hole in the wall here like Jia Jia Tang Bao in Shanghai, and the Shanghai restaurants around here are posers as far as xlb goes, so all we have left is the dimsum places. A dimsum place will be able to survive on its other items if the demand around here doesn't pan out for its xlb, while a hole in the wall place that has all its xlb in one basket will fold if it turns out that Seattle isn't "ready" for xlb. PS please tell your friends in Shanghai to move out here and open up a xlb hole in the wall ! Maybe next door to Lunchbox Laboratory, in that soon-to-be-defunct nail salon. Maybe some good shenjianbao too, while they're at it...0
re: barleywino
You don't need a full service restaurant for XLB. A food court stall can pump out a lot of XLB to eager customers. Like this one in Crystal Mall in Burnaby, BC - it only does XLB (...very good) and a handful other items. Those two women on the right side of the photo are making XLB all day long. Can Seattle support something like this?0
re: fmed
Absolutely (imo)! PS love that food porn, please send more ;)0
re: barleywino
>> PS love that food porn, please send more
(I hope this isn't too off-topic)
Have a look over at the Western Canada boards for more. Those particular photos came from this thread http://www.chowhound.com/topics/5134910
re: clearskies0810
I'm more curious as to why XLB is seen as the alpha-omega of Chinese food / dim sum? Good heaven's there is a heck of a lot more to life, errr, dim sum, than that! And I think Clearskies is correct--in China, the best places specialize.........0
re: barleywino
hmmm, well clearly there is only one solution: take up a collection and send barleywino to Canada to learn how to make really XLB. And then get barleywino a place to work . . . . .
But seriously, in LA an awful lot of really excellent Chinese restaurants have kitchen staff who only speak Spanish. Same for the korean places. So we can't blame the lack of good stuff on lack of cooks. Must be an issue with the eaters. . . .0
re: jenn
agree with jenn and barley. I don't think we need a prima donna chef working full time to open up a XLB counter. We might require a chef for a month or so on a contract basis to share the recipes and train the staff. This is a consulting situation, with minimal follow-up. I suspect that any reliable manager from a reputable place in Shanghai, BC, Taipei, etc. that is not subject to confidentiality agreements could get it done for less than $10,000, plus expenses. Could be cheaper with an excellent street vendor/sole proprietor with no corporate legal obstacles, or someone already in the states that wouldn't have visa issues. This is just a wild approximation and I am no expert in these financial areas; I welcome others to chime in. Obviously, there would be normal costs associated with opening any new venture in addition. But I just can't accept that getting us good XLB is too costly a proposition.
Oh, and on the marketing front, why not try and use the relative unfamiliarity as a strength. Perhaps a curiosity buzz approach like that used with cryptic posters for monster movies. " X. L. B. 7.1.08. Find out more at XLBseattle.com." Just show a picture of the basket...with mysterious steam rising out...wait, now this is reminding me of gremlins.0
re: equinoise
Intriguing idea. However - keep in mind that it may cost a lot more than you think. The good chefs learn their craft from other master chefs, who tend not to give you their recipes for about 10 to 15 years (in the meantime, you'll be chopping scallions or peeling shrimp for them or something). Even in the "quickie" chef training schools in Asia, I hear that learning to properly create the "skin" of things like XLB takes a minimum of a good year or two, unless you're born natural at this stuff.
Not to be a rain cloud or anything...but it's probably a little more involved than hiring a chef for a month or so. An apt analogy would be hiring Andre Watts for a month to teach you to play the piano so you can go out to play public concerts.
Of course - what I'm talking about here is if you're interested in making top-end XLB. However, given the state of XLB in Seattle, I'm sure your $10k plan could get us something that would still be vastly superior to what we currently have.0
re: barleywino
Curious about Shanghai Garden. I've never been. But my neighbor's swear by it and bring their out of town visitors there. I miss Doong Kong Lau. The owner's relative owns a Chinese restaurant in Mukilteo that isn't nearly as good. Sad to say.0
re: rumgum
Shanghai Garden is just alright. Nothing near special or spectacular. Way overpriced for what they give you too.0
re: HungWeiLo
Agreed. It's good, not exceptional, but it's priced at exceptional (Chinese).
I do love the barely shaved green noodles something fierce, however.0
re: fooey
Yes - without the green barley shaved noodles, they'd be out of business in a week.0
re: hhlodesign
I LOVE this thread, Fooey! This is making me think of the realizations that I've had in regard to watching theater and ballet. (Seriously, go with me here.) I started seeing plays regularly about ten years ago and attending the ballet about three years ago. When I first started watching ballet, it was pretty and all but I didn't really get it. Over the years, I've begun to learn the vocabulary and it's a whole other experience now. With the theater, my play buddy and I have realized that we have much more interesting conversations when the play's mediocre or bad because we're trying to figure out why. Directing? Acting? Casting? etc. It's the same thing with food maybe? We're more discerning because we can be.
I think, too, that along with recruiting chefs to come and open a restaurant devoted to our faves9as was mentioned below), we Chow-ists have another job to do which is spreading the good food word. I am not a proselytizer by nature but until reasonably intelligent people stop thinking that Olive Garden is an excellent way to spend a Friday night, we're fighting an uphill battle. A really vibrant restaurant scene, like a vibrant arts scene, can't be sufficiently supported by a handful of culinary aesthetes.
Maybe we should an initiate a "Take Your Chain-Restaurant-Loving (Insert-title-here) to Union/Crush/Veil" Day!0
re: laurahutch
I'm sorry guys, I really can't agree with the "chain-loving" thing here in the city. Yeah, there's an Olive Garden at Southcenter, but Tukwila is a planet away from Seattle. There are a few exceptions (Rock Bottom, Beppo, Oceanaire) but compared to most mid-sized US cities I've been in, we are doing juuussst fiine. We're not SF, but thankfully we're not Dayton or Sacramento either.0
re: allisonw
Hold on, now, Sacramento has a vibrant Vietnamese scene, so while it's still cow country, it's also a very Chow-friendly place to eat. I make the drive from Portland to LA and always stop in SAC because of the price difference versus, say, stopping anywhere in the South Bay.0
re: SauceSupreme
Sacramento has actually pretty decent Chinese too. It's considered by many commuters as a suburb of the Bay area these days anyways.0
re: allisonw
While we may not have that many actual chain restaurants in the city, there are plenty that are chain-like: Icon Grill, Capital Grill, Palomino, Daily Grill, Taphouse Grill, Waterfront, Elliot's, Wild Ginger, etc. Maybe we should distinguish between small, independent chef-owned places versus the ones owned by larger restaurant conglomerates.......0
re: Lauren
I think people make too much of "chains vs. independents" thing.
You can find good food on any menu, it's just harder at some places than others.
That said, it always feel nice to support the little guy...0
re: allisonw
Tukwila is only a 10-15 minute drive from Seattle. Hardly a planet away.
I've worked in downtown Seattle for a good number of years, and it's not uncommon to have coworkers suggest get-togethers at chains in the 'burbs. You have to realize that a good number of people who live within Seattle proper are "afraid" of non-chain restaurants. Just depends on your crowd.0
re: HungWeiLo
I agree. This is why Oceanaire is doing well. I personally won't ever go there again, becuase I don't like the fact that the food would taste the same whether in minneapolis or seattle, but a lot of people find comfort in that. Cheesecake factory and PF Chang's are packed every single day.0
re: HungWeiLo
I was meeting a friend at Moxie and she got lost trying to find it. Her explanation was "that's right, you only go to restaurants with small signs." I had no idea what she meant until I started noticing that chains and chain-like restaurants have large signs!0
re: laurahutch
In addition to the 3 that allisonw mentioned there are quite a few big chain places in Seattle. Downtown there are Ruth's Chris, Morton's, Cheesecake Factory, Il Fornaio, Gordon Biersch, PF Changs and Outback (not actually downtown, but near Lake Union and other locations in Seattle). Then at Northgate there are Stanford's, Romano's Macaroni Grill, The Ram, California Pizza Kitchen, Red Robin,(several locations around town), Marie Callendar's and Tony Roma's. I'm sure I've missed some and this doesn't even get into the fast food outlet chain category.0
re: SeaGal
Melting Pot in Lower QA (which I'd say is as close as SLU's Outback/Bonefish/Jillian's). Fox Sports Grill should count, too. Does Johnny Rocket's count as a fast food chain, or just skirt the line? Todai should be on the list as well.0
re: jaydeflix
Palomino is a chain, though mentioned above as merely "chain-like."
Other downtown chain spots of ill repute: Rock Bottom, Benihana
Then there are regional chains like Taphouse Grill, Purple, McCormick & Schmick (though I guess that one's been national for a while.)0
I think one of the reasons there is less Portland / PDX traffic is because there are two in depth Portland-centric restaurant and food websites that are used/viewed by Portland locals.
That, and I find a certain Portland chowhound commentator a little annoying even if I am in agreement with that commentator's opinion. If it annoys me...it might annoy others.0
It is interesting to read about everyone's must haves. I am a Seattle transplant, but I love it here. Doesn't mean I can't mourn some specific food from back when. I agree that Seattle is not very diverse. And I laughed at hhlo and good food for Mom--it's so true. We don't know Szechuan so well to have that particular preference, but for some favorite, there's stuff that will do, even if it's not at the top of the genre and I wouldn't want to take my mom.
I do love tasting menus, have eaten them the world over. I have made the transition easily to small plates though. I am not saying a muti course at a Michelin-starred place is the same, just that I have been able to enjoy other things that I think Seattle does really well, like local and seasonal.0
The optimist I am, I would like to respond in reverse.
In my opinion, Seattle has superior:
1. espresso bars - Boston (where I'm from) is mostly Dunkin Donuts
2. Vietnamese food
3. fresh seafood dishes in a variety of restaurants (upscale all the way down)
4. as someone mentioned earlier, brewpubs with many local brews
5. for the home cook, more frequent access to fresh ingredients (local or foreign)
6. and bakeries (bread) - many to choose from here, I was amazed when I moved... Macrina, Tall Grass, Essential, Boulangerie Nantaise, etc.etc.0
re: lemiller610
You rock lemiller!0
There is no good Italian restaurant in Seattle (I am from Italy). In my opinion, a good Italian restaurant has to be small in scale with everything from the pictures on the wall, to the wine list, music etc able to make me think of Italy; I understand that not all the staff can be Italian but the owner/chef should be directly from Italy.
Why in Seattle, Chinese or Indian restaurants are generally operated by Chinese or Indians while Italian restaurants are generally operated by non-Italians? I am starting to be tired of vaguely 'inspired' Italian restaurants with menu full of typos and food that is, in the best case, some sort of eclectic fusion.0
re: Marco P
Marco, even stranger are the Italian restuarants run by Greek families, when we are also in need of good Greek food!
Have you tried Mondello in Magnolia? Everyone is Italian, and their non-English speaking grandmother sits at the counter directing them. I think the food is wonderful, but my time in Italy is a very toursity experience, so you would have to judge for yourself. I also adore Tribunali.0
re: bluedog67
I will try it. Thank you!0
re: bluedog67
I've noticed that too about Italian places run by Greek families. My friends always look at me funny when I bring it up. Thanks, I'm not the only one.0
re: rumgum
I am from the east coast, so i thought it was just me at first, too. I get suspicious when I see feta on putanesca or dolmades & baklava on the menu. usually if you chat up the staff, they are in fact greek. I suppose they think americans will dine at an italian more likely than greek, but we are in need of both authentic italian and authentic greek - this results in americanized "mediteranean style" food, which we have too much of!0
re: bluedog67
Marco, how many good Italian restaurants have you found in the US at all? It seems like there are very few places that are like something you would actually find in Italy. Most of the time when you hear people rave about "Italian" restaurants they are actually Italian-American, with caeser salad and chicken parmesan, and bear no resemblance to a restaurant in Italy.0
re: christy319
Christy, honestly, I have not found many good Italian restaurants in the US. I generally avoid restaurants with menus full of Italian typos or list including dishes such as alfredo, piccata, chicken parmesan, marinara sauce etc. Most Italians would not even know what those are! I tend to prefer independent to chains and small to big restaurants....I also like restaurants where somebody is able to speak Italian in the front.0
re: Marco P
The same reason why most Koreans own and operate Japanese/teriyaki restaurants instead of Korean restaurants - they're a lot more popular and profitable.0
re: HungWeiLo
what's wrong with KimChi sushi? :)0
re: bbqboy
*cringe* *toes curl*0
re: fooey
Kimbap - don't knock it till you try it! Great stuff. ;)0
re: HungWeiLo
Is that the reason? Hah, another thing I can explain to my friends. They just think Koreans make better teriyaki. I actually don't mind a side of kimchi with my teriyaki.0
re: rumgum
It's simple arithmetic. If you take $10-$15 from your customer, would you rather give them a full meal with meat, rice, soup, and 8 chanban side dishes, or just give them a scoop of rice, some cole slaw, and a few pieces of chicken?
And plus, bi bim bap is just not quite sweeping the flyover country off their collective feet.0
re: Marco P
Marco, try tidbit bistro on North Capitol Hill. The owner is from Italy and he is a nice guy. They have great food but you may not like the fact they mix Spanish and Italian (that for me is a plus).0
This type of 'there is no good X in Y' thread, along with 'Y's food scene is better than Z's' are generally off topic for Chowhound, since they tend to devolve into arguments and hurt feelings. We'll leave the thread up, since there are a few good chow tips in it, that we don't want to lose them, but we've also removed some unpleasant and argumentative posts from this thread, and we're locking it now.0


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Vincent Biraud joins Bull as Investor Relations Officer
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Super Bowl contention feels right around the corner for the Cincinnati Bengals. Is their roster strong and settled enough for that?
Backup QB: Jason Campbell vs. A.J. McCarron
Common NFL knowledge says it's best to have a veteran plugged in at backup quarterback during a season. That could explain why the Cincinnati Bengals chose to bring in former starter turned journeyman Jason Campbell. He's a clear favorite to grab the #2 job behind Andy Dalton, but he can't afford to get comfortable. While his shot at the starting job is slim, 5th round pick A.J. McCarron comes into camp with an enormous chip on his shoulder. The two-time national champion believed he should've gone higher in the draft, and may use that slight as motivation to climb his way up the depth chart.
Running Back: Jeremy Hill vs. BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Giovani Bernard became the best weapon in the Bengals backfield last season. He's going to get his touches one way or another. The question is will be he get the lions share of the carries. Logic says that is not the best idea given his limited size and bulk, which means the tough touches will go to the bigger, strong backs. BenJarvus Green-Ellis was that guy last season but his limited explosiveness was a constant problem despite his productivity near the goal line. Meanwhile the arrival of rookie Jeremy Hill, who brings not only size but also speed to the equation, certainly makes a veteran like Green-Ellis look expendable.
Cornerback: Terence Newman vs. Darqueze Dennard
The real mess to sort out for the Cincinnati Bengals is on their defense, particularly the secondary. Both the cornerback and safety positions are not settled quite yet. The most lingering concern is the age creeping up on the corners. Terence Newman is 35-years old and missed three games in 2013 due to injury. His spot is now under threat from 1st round pick Darqueze Dennard, the tough and physical kid from Michigan State who led his team to a Rose Bowl victory. With Leon Hall and Pacman Jones also aging, the coaches are likely to give Dennard every opportunity to earn a starting job. Newman may the weakest link.
Tags: A.j. Mccarron Benjarvus Green-ellis Cincinnati Bengals Darqueze Dennard Jeremy Hill Terence Newman


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Beauties, have you ever thought of saving money on makeup with customizable palettes?
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Last year, the Saints defense became notorious for their rotational nature and their ability to confuse quarterbacks based on personnel. However, there was one constant amongst these rotations. Middle/inside linebacker Curtis Lofton (aka the only Falcon we've ever loved) is an unsung hero in the Saints defense. Everyone talks about Rob Ryan and the Saints secondary, but the things...
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New Orleans Saints: State of the inside linebacker positionWith the improvement of the New Orleans Saints' defense, most of the attention has gone to the younger talent in the secondary and defensive line. However, one position that gets somewhat lost in the shuffle is the play of the inside linebacker position, led by veterans Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne. Lofton, one of...
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Saints' Curtis Lofton made a huge mistake
New Orleans Saints middle linebacker Curtis Lofton left the Atlanta Falcons during the 2012 offseason to sign a 5 year deal worth 33.5 million. However with the Falcons 4-0 and the Saints 0-4, did Lofton make a mistake signing with the Saints? The whole reason Lofton signed with the Saints was either because of money or finding a championship, because the Saints have had more success...
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Curtis Lofton admits that as a former Atlanta Falcon, he used to hate the rival Saints. Yet, instead of delighting in the bounty scandal that cast uncertainty upon Saints' 2012 season, Lofton's reaction was to take New Orleans seriously as a free-agent destination. Lofton has been practicing as the starting middle linebacker, the same position held by Saints defensive captain...
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Curtis Lofton Gives Middle Finger to Atlanta Fans
The new public enemy #1 This weekend former Atlanta Falcons player Curtis Lofton made the decision to sign with the rival New Orleans Saints. The Falcons had made up their mind that Curtis wasn't part of their future plans when they opted to sign former pro bowler Lofa Tatupu. Mike Triplett of the New Orleans Times Picayune has an article up on Lofton and there is a very...
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Report: Saints add linebacker
The Saints reportedly have added a linebacker to fit in with their 4-3 scheme. This could be an indication they're worried about suspensions.
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BREAKING: Former Falcons MLB Curtis Lofton Is Joining The Eagles per Bucs DT Gerald McCoy.
The most viable MLB in the 2012 free agency class is headed to Philadelphia. Players View does not have an official statement yet but Gerald McCoy of the Bucaneers who targeted Lofton just tweeted "Sorry #bucnation I tried but it looks like @CurtisLofton50 is an Eagle.Business is business he did what was best for him. Understandable." Please click the link to read the rest of this story.
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Report: Linebacker Curtis Lofton Signs with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Per a report from The Pewter Plank's Josh Hill, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers have made another splash in free agency by signing former Atlanta Falcon linebacker Curtis Lofton. Lofton, who was drafted out of theUniversityofOklahomaby the Falcons in the second round of the 2008 NFL draft, was widely considered one of the top linebackers in this year's free agency class. Lofton became...
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My second favorite Swede: Freddie Ljungberg
Booming Sweden's Free-Market Solution
By Anders Aslund, Bloomberg
Not so long ago, Sweden could claim world leadership in unmitigated Keynesian economics, with a 90 percent marginal tax rate and a welfare state second to none.
Now Swedes look at the conflict between the U.S. and German examples over whether more spending or more austerity is the key to financial salvation, and for them the choice is easy: Germany was right. Northern Europe harbors no sympathy for the spendthrifts of Southern Europe.
Americans still think of Sweden as a tightly regulated social-welfare state, but in the last two decades the country has been reformed. Public spending has fallen by no less than one-fifth of gross domestic product, taxes have dropped and markets have opened up.
The situation is similar in the other Scandinavian countries, the Baltic nations and Poland. But no turnabout has been as dramatic as Sweden's.


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For enquiries regarding Shows, Entries and venue hire please call Either Michelle or Tonie on 01277 824860
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Unaffiliated Dressage Times: Saturday 1st Nov 2014 CLICK HERE
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Polar Express and Christmas Train
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Prom is expensive, don't get us wrong. And we think that you should try to cut costs however you can. Share a limo. Rent a cheap tux. Parachute into prom instead of having a full eight chopper Air Force escort. ...More →
Graphic Detail takes an in-depth look at a new graphic novel or trade paperback released each week. For comic fans, there is basically no piece of trivia easier than naming the members of the Fantastic Four. You've got Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Ben Grimm (the Thing)...More →
You can tell the things we care about by the number of slang terms we have for them. Eskimos, a prime example, had tons of words for snow, perhaps even too many words for snow, to the point where it got kinda weird. If you...More →
From KISS and Alice Cooper to Coheed and Cambria, the annals of rock & roll history are peppered with artists who've brought their craft to the comic-book page. The latest to join their ranks is California hard rock act Valora, whose debut album I Waited...More →
Comics Catch compiles short reviews of a bunch of comics worth reading each week. Book of the Week: Justice League #6: Geoff Johns and Jim Lee pull out all the stops for the finale to their epic first story arc of Justice League. As this issue...More →
JAY GEE IN THE HEEEEEEEEZY. We tooooooold you sophisticated boogerbrains this was coming, and now here it is! The hilarious, brilliant, so-dang-ON-IT author John Green read your REALLY smart, impressive questions, and responded to a bunch of 'em. In fact, we'll let John do the rest...More →
Okay guys, here is what we are all going to do right now: 1) Find whatever you use as a calendar or planner. It could be a notebook or your phone or whatever. 2) Turn/scroll to May 4, 2012. 3) Make a notation that day that indicates YOU...More →
Every week, Scott downloads iTunes FREE songs and reviews 'em. You should, too! What do you look for in a good song? I'll tell you what I look for; something that sticks with me, whether it's a bass line or an instrumental or great lyrics...More →


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Our purpose-built Crèche provides a fun, safe and social environment for children from birth to 5 years
Take some time out for yourself. Enjoy a fitness class safe in the knowledge that your child is just a few rooms away in the care of our qualified and friendly staff.
Our Crèche facilities are registered with, and regularly inspected by OFSTED.
Opening Times
The Creche is open Monday - Friday from 09:30 - 13:00