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Good communication is vital during conflict. When we asked 5,000 adults what they wished their parents had done differently during times of conflict, they gave these three responses most often:
It's interesting that all three of those involve aspects of communication.
And as this list suggests, good communication during conflict begins with listening and not with searching for solutions. Men especially tend to pay little attention to what their loved ones are saying, concentrating instead on trying to fix the problem. That's why we want to emphasize in this module that we need to listen first and then look for ways to resolve the conflict. It's also why we'll discuss techniques for finding solutions.
Do you want to know one particularly nasty myth that keeps many people from experiencing the tremendous benefits of effective communication? Somewhere along the way, they have come to believe that real communication occurs when they understand the other person's words. They equate effective communication with accurately parroting back the words and phrases they hear.
But, in fact, good communication is more than that. True communication usually does not occur until each partner understands the feelings that underlie the spoken words. People generally feel more understood, cared for, and connected when the communication first focuses on their emotions and feelings rather than merely on their words or thoughts.
Consider this the magic of effective communication. Our goal must go beyond understanding the spoken words to grasping the emotional nugget underlying the words. It's far more important to discover and address the emotions beneath the situation than to parrot the words we hear. Ask yourself, "What is the emotional impact of these words?" not merely, "What exact words did I just hear?"
Suppose a teen says, "I hate my school. Everyone ignores me and I want to be home schooled."
What did she mean? Consider carefully her two sentences. The teen used no "feeling" words but all "thinking" words. So if you reply, "So what you're saying is that you don't want to go to your school any longer and you'd rather be home schooled," you've completely missed the point. You've accurately reflected to her the words she just spoke, but you remain completely in the dark about her real concern — you remain in the "head" and we want you to move to the "heart."
But what if you listen for the emotions beneath the words by listening with your heart? What if you said, "Are you saying that you feel ignored by the teachers and the other students, that you don't matter?" Presto! This time, you've "got it." You listened beyond your daughter's words to her heart, to her real concern. You've tapped into her emotional message — her fear of being ignored.
A lot of us (especially men) struggle with this skill. Men tend to think in a linear way: cut to the chase, get to the bottom line. We want to solve a problem and complete a task, not deal with emotions. We want to figure out how to "fix it." Without listening for and responding to the emotions, however, all of the problem solving in the world won't get us to the real problem.
Effective communication comes down to listening and speaking with your heart. When people feel understood emotionally, they feel cared for. This is very different from listening to someone from the head — that is, looking merely for the content of the person's words, without paying attention to the feelings. The goal of effective communication is to understand the emotional message of the speaker. You have to ask yourself, What is this person feeling?
It is one thing to hear these emotions and say, "Boy, I can really tell you are upset." But it is another thing to allow these emotions to penetrate your heart, to allow yourself to feel the pain or the sadness. The key is not merely to understand these feelings but also to allow the feelings to touch you. This is one of the primary ways that people feel cared for and loved.
Does this sound like a lot of work? Do you think it makes more sense just to make a decision, without really understanding what the other person is feeling? Be careful! Just making a quick decision will not solve your problem. When people don't feel understood and cared for, they may "agree" to some decision, but they won't get on board with it. Relationally, it doesn't feel to them like a satisfying or effective solution. And in the end, you'll have to talk about these things all over again.
Does it seem as if identifying the emotional nugget will take far more time than other methods of communication? A lot of guys think so! But in fact, it actually saves tremendous amounts of time.
Guys, take note: Effective communication is ultimately more efficient and takes less time than other methods. A lot of men feel frustrated when their loved ones seem to go on and on. They don't understand that the reason they go on and on is that they don't feel emotionally understood. If these fathers took the time to actually uncover their teen's emotional concern or fear, the conversation would move on and they wouldn't have to hear the same thing a dozen times, from six different angles. When guys finally "get" this, the lightbulb goes on for them. They get excited about their ability to condense the conversation.
"All I have to do is help her see that I truly understand her feelings?" they ask, amazed and delighted.
Yep. That's it. Sounds great, doesn't it?
Guys, hear us: If your daughter repeats the same thing over and over, we can almost guarantee that she does not believe you understand her heart. You could say at that point, "I noticed that you are repeating yourself, and that causes me to question whether you believe I am understanding you. Am I missing something?"
Is this method easy? Not in one sense — it's probably very different from what you've done to this point in your life. But practice makes perfect! And over time, it gets much more efficient. At first, we admit, it feels awkward and you may be clumsy at it. But as you get more practice, it gets easier. In fact, this is the most streamlined form of communication that we know.
So learn to listen with your heart. Put your problem-solving urges on hold for a while. Problem-solving skills remain extremely valuable, of course, but they are much more effective after you understand the emotions involved. So save time! Get efficient! And look for the emotional nugget.
Effective communication makes room for people to feel what they are feeling, and to know that their feeling — their heart, the place where they are emotionally — is not only okay with me, it's welcome, and I am going to care about it.
Taken from The DNA of Parent-Teen Relationships: Discover the Key to Your Teen's Heart published by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Copyright © 1998 and 2005 by Gary Smalley and Greg Smalley, Psy.D. All rights reserved.
Attempts at communication between parents and teens can be extremely frustrating for both parties. Unfortunately, many families tend to use one or more of four common habits that bring further anger and destruction to the relationship. In other words, these four common habits are what we shouldn't do when we have family disagreements. Let's examine these unhealthy ways of arguing so we know what to avoid.
1. Continually withdrawing from an argument
Conflict avoidance or withdrawal doesn't happen only in "dysfunctional" families; it's common in otherwise healthy families as well. In our seminar survey of more than 5,000 adults, when we asked "How did you and your parents deal with conflict?" the number-one response was avoiding or withdrawing from it.
How about your family? Do you find that you and your teenager continue to bring up the same areas of conflict without resolving them? If so, these discussions probably end in hurt, frustration, or fear because the issues have not been handled adequately.
2. Letting arguments escalate into hurtful, name-calling fights
If you and your teen find yourselves starting to shout and call each other degrading, dishonoring names during an argument, the anger level will usually skyrocket. Nothing can make a discussion escalate out of control faster. Yet when we asked our survey respondents how their families had handled conflict, "Yelling and screaming at each other" was the third-most-common answer.
What usually starts this kind of interaction is the accusatory word you. For example, "You never ... You always ... You make me ..." As this happens, you're usually left with greater hurt and frustration. Furthermore, the fear level is now higher because you remember the increased pain of the argument. The result is more love-killing anger between those involved.
Usually following on the heels of an escalating argument is the third bad habit we need to avoid.
3. Belittling or invalidating each other during an argument
To invalidate someone is to make fun of him or attack his personhood. For example, during a conflict we might accuse our teenager of being stupid, uncaring, wild, immature, ugly, or something equally dishonoring. When this happens, it can cause emotional damage and sour the relationship.
Invalidation takes place when we try to cut someone at the core of her being, like saying something about her age, personality, appearance, or intelligence. To be invalidated can be extremely painful. Perhaps you remember a time when a parent, teacher, coach, or friend said something that hurt you deep inside, maybe not even realizing the depth of pain his comment caused.
Why do conflicts between parents and teenagers so often escalate into name-calling, yelling, and invalidation? One reason we need to understand is the intensity and variability of teenage emotions. It's no secret that adolescence is a period of emotional highs and lows. Our teens may feel as if they're on an emotional roller coaster: loving one minute and hating the next; feeling a sense of pride and then suddenly feeling shame. One moment the future looks bright, and then in the blink of an eye it's hopeless.
The intensity and variability of emotions, especially in teenagers and especially during conflict, can cause a calm discussion to turn instantly into a raging war of words. It's no wonder that you can expect to experience occasional escalation and invalidation.
One of the best ways to deal with escalation and invalidation during a conflict is to take a "time-out." In other words, when emotions start to heighten, body temperatures rise, and words start becoming dishonoring, it's time to take a break. Always agree to resume the discussion when everyone's emotions have settled. As you utilize the time-out with your teenager, you will be modeling a great conflict resolution skill that he or she will be able to use for a lifetime.
Let's now turn our attention to the final habit in arguing that can produce anger and become extremely toxic to the honor in your home.
4. Starting to believe that a family member is trying to hurt, frustrate, or cause fear on purpose
When we begin to develop a negative belief about someone, it can have permanent and ruinous consequences. What we believe about our children may come true, good or bad. Once we start developing a deep conviction that our teenager is stupid, clumsy, trying to drive us crazy, or going to get pregnant, we'll actually hear or see signs of it even if it isn't true. Confirmation bias is particularly destructive when it comes to parent-adolescent conflict.
As you can see, withdrawal, escalation, invalidation, and negative beliefs foster anger and destroy both the parent's and the teen's love if continued over time. That's why we need to be aware of these patterns and replace them with the right way — the best way we've found — to communicate during times of conflict.
The rules for drive-thru talking are simple, but they must be followed to keep the discussion honoring. One person agrees to start "inside the fast food restaurant" (the "employee"), and the other starts the discussion "outside in the car by the menu" (the "customer"). The employee says something like, "Welcome to the Smalley home. Can I take your order?"
The customer then expresses his feelings or his needs in the current conflict. He can't bring up anything from the past or start a new argument. (We can deal with only one argument at a time.) And the customer needs to offer only small amounts of information at a time. Making large statements or blending two ideas together can cause the employee to forget or miss something important.
The employee's job is to repeat what is said by the customer, making sure he understands the "order" clearly, and he isn't allowed to evaluate anything that's said. (Have you ever heard a McDonald's worker say after you order a super-sized meal, "Sir, I can see you in my mirror, and . . . well . . . are you sure you want the Big Mac? May I recommend the McLean?" Absolutely not! You'd drive away furious and never visit again.)
Drive-thru talking is successful because it helps your teenager feel safe to express his or her needs and feelings. Safety develops when your child trusts that your goal is to listen and understand, not to defend and challenge. That's why, in the employee role, we do not evaluate, edit, or defend ourselves. Instead, we simply listen and repeat. (It's better if you repeat using your own words.)
How can you be sure drive-thru talking will really work with your teenager? If you enter into it with a spirit of honor by listening and repeating, you will provide your child with a tremendously safe environment in which to discuss feelings. Sit back and let God do the rest. Remember, we call this method drive-thru talking because fast-food chains have spent millions of dollars testing their ordering methods. If they can satisfy millions of drive-thru customers every day, why don't we use their knowledge to keep our "family customers" happy and satisfied? We can!
The amazing part of this method is how fast anger is dissipated. When someone is listening to you with great concern and valuing who you are, the anger just seems to drain away.
Once each person feels heard, understood, and validated, you can begin to look for solutions to the problem if necessary. You'll be amazed, however, at how easily some arguments are solved after you both feel understood and valued.
Now that you've seen the drive-thru talking method in action, we suggest you start practicing it. If your teen is going to find value in this method, you need to demonstrate that it's worth using. Remember, the best lessons learned in life are caught, not taught. To help you, we offer the following summary of drive-thru talking guidelines:
Fast-Food Employee (listener)
Customer (speaker)
General Rules
As a word of caution, we highly encourage you not to begin drive-thru talking on a highly sensitive or controversial subject or a deeply hurtful area from your past. Start with less-volatile conflicts like being late for dinner or maybe wearing too much makeup. As your skills increase at using this life-changing method, you may feel safer to use it with more serious and sensitive matters. Take your time. It's not something you try and stop using because it didn't work immediately the way you wanted. Trust us, it works if you stay with it. It has been proved for years to be the most powerful communication method available, and it definitely lowers the anger level at home (as well as at the office or at school).
Now it's time to consider how honoring, lasting solutions can be found for parent-teen conflicts. In the next article, we explain seven powerful steps any mom or dad can take to help resolve even the most difficult disagreements with adolescents.
Once you and your teen have heard and understood each other using drive-thru talking, it's time to pursue solutions to whatever conflict remains. The goal is for both of you to come away feeling like satisfied, honored winners.
So how can we resolve conflicts with our teenagers in honor? We start by establishing some ground rules. Rule number one is to act like teammates!
Why do power struggles cause us such trouble? It's simple. In every power struggle, parents and teenagers become adversaries; they take up opposing positions. So if that's true then what kind of strategy can we use to effectively counter such a ploy? Ideally, we all want win/win solutions.
But when a win/win solution looks impossible to achieve, too many of us settle for what we see as a win/lose option. Not the best, maybe, and we'd really rather avoid it; but at least it's not the worst, either. In other words, we "compromise."
When we opt for the win/lose approach, however, we don't really get one winner and one loser. In fact, we wind up with two losers. There is no such thing as a win/lose in a family. Everybody wins or everybody loses, period. There is no other option.
This is how families work. The problem is we just don't know it! Many families set themselves up for failure because, from the outset, the individuals face off as adversaries. This can be as subtle as insisting on "making a point." Even if one member of the pair "wins" the point, it means an automatic loss for the relationship.
We encourage you to make a commitment to anew way of doing things and determine to abandon the failed old model. This begins by establishing what our colleague Dr. Bob Paul calls a "No Losers Policy." In a No Losers Policy, family members agree that it will never be acceptable, from this point on, for any of them to walk away from any interaction feeling as if they have lost. Each family member has to feel good about the solution.
To make the pathway work for you, however, you have to come up with a different definition of winning. If you make winning about getting your own way — in any way, shape or form — you're still locked into the old pattern and still headed for the relationship rocks.
So if winning can't be about getting your way, what is it about? Remember, you're part of a team. Therefore you have to redefine winning as finding and implementing a solution that both people can feel good about.
A win/win solution that makes both parties feel good gives positive movement to the relationship and leaves it in a different (and better) place than it was before. You take a trip and end up someplace other than where you started.
You tend to relax when winning becomes finding and implementing a solution that both people can feel good about. Why? Because you don't have to worry about the other person being willing to accept a solution that makes him or her feel bad.
Creating a No Losers Policy goes a long way toward creating the kind of relationships that yield joy and satisfaction rather than grief and frustration.
Before the next conflict with your teenager arises, we encourage you to do something so valuable that it can save hours of pain: With your family, establish rules for fair fighting. Such specific rules concerning what's permitted and what's not will provide structure and safety and keep your discussion from getting out of control and slipping into one of the bad habits we explored earlier in this module (withdrawal, escalation, invalidation, negative beliefs). One rule, for example, could be that whenever you see one of those four things happening, you take a time-out.
Most teens have a heightened sense of fairness, so pointing out that these rules will promote fair play should motivate them to help set up some rules.
The best way to establish these rules is to begin by asking each family member, "What rules are needed when we argue in order to keep us from getting out of control or dishonoring each other?" Then, after everyone has spoken and you've reached agreement as a family, write down your rules and post them somewhere visible so you can see them during an argument.
A good rule for every family is that both parents and children agree to treat each other with respect and listen to each other's point of view.
The 5,000 adults we surveyed gave us these top 10 rules for fair fighting:
Select just a few key rules to start with, because most parents and teens can't remember too many in the heat of an argument. And the calmer the argument, the better the chance of an honoring outcome. Make sure you follow the fairness rules from the start, too, as researchers have discovered that the first 30 seconds of a disagreement can determine whether the next two hours of arguing are carried out in honor or in anger.
Dads especially need the safety of rules and calmness to fight fairly. If the rules for fighting are not clear and a man feels overwhelmed by angry words, his tendency is to withdraw. As we have previously discussed, withdrawal does a great deal of damage. Anger flares. But using the drive-thru talking communication method and fair-fighting rules make it much more likely that Dad will remain and work things out.
Once your rules are established, you'll be ready to jump right into the seven steps for wisely resolving almost any conflict with your teenager.
When the Smalley kids were teens and large conflicts came up within our family, we tried to follow the next eight steps as closely as possible. They helped greatly to keep our anger levels low and our honor high. They also helped us create a win/win solution.
1. Remember you're on the same team.
This is huge! Just keeping this in mind can change the way you treat one another as you communicate and negotiate. Remember, it is not acceptable for one of you to walk away feeling like you've lost. It is not worth it!
2. Clearly define the problem issue and facts through listening.
To resolve a conflict, it's necessary to first clearly define what the conflict is about. It could just be the result of fatigue, miscommunication, unclear rules, or a low sugar level. Or perhaps someone has an unspoken desire.
Take time to understand how the other person feels. There's a great likelihood that your conflict will melt away as you really go deeper and understand each other's deeper feelings and concerns. Often, a parent and teen will find out that they are really not as far apart as they thought.
It may help to ask questions like "What's really going on?" or "What change would be needed to satisfy you?"
3. Don't be impulsive — get the facts.
The next step in resolving a conflict is to consider all the facts. Impulsive actions can be limited if we agree as a family to gather facts before making a decision, especially during the heat of a disagreement. But don't get overwhelmed thinking, Great, we have to get all the facts before we can make any decision! Sometimes the resolution to a conflict or the wise decision to make is so obvious that you don't need a major fact-finding mission. On the other hand, there will be times when a solution is not immediately apparent, or you and your teenager won't agree on the solution.
Sometimes, of course, we parents have to make tough decisions when we can't reach agreement with our teens, and they have to abide by them. But gathering the relevant facts often makes the right choice clear to everyone involved, and it also increases the honor and decreases the anger in our homes. Further, it teaches teenagers a valuable skill: logical discernment. It never hurts to consider facts, but ignorance of the facts can cause a lot of damage.
4. Pray and seek wise counsel.
Pray together. Some conflicts resolve at this point when you discern God's leading on the issue. Furthermore, it is almost impossible to want to pray with someone when you're really angry or "closed." This step is a good internal check-in. If you don't want to pray together, you probably shouldn't be trying to resolve the conflict at this time — you're probably not very safe and are likely to say or do something that means you feel more like an enemy than a teammate.
In addition to prayer, another way to help solve difficult problems or make wise decisions is to seek opinions from wise people. This doesn't mean just going to someone who you know already agrees with your position. We want to stress the word wise. It does no good to seek advice from those who may not know anything, are immature, or may be "darkened in their understanding" by sin.
Whether the wise counsel comes from a parent, a teacher, a coach, a mentor, a youth pastor, civil servants, or other authority figures, help your teenager to actively pursue good advice when faced with a significant decision.
5. Create solutions by brainstorming a "pro versus con" list.
Brainstorm solutions. Now that each of you understands where the other person is coming from, you can begin to generate ideas that have the potential for being win/win solutions. Don't judge or criticize the ideas at this stage; the idea is to be creative and generate a list of options.
One of the best methods our family found for brainstorming was a "pro versus con" list. It's simple, and it keeps peace in the midst of negotiation. It also helps guard against a major roadblock to honoring solutions: manipulation.
When parents put pressure on their teenager to make a particular choice (or vice versa), it can cause major conflict. But the pro versus con list enables us to look at the issues more objectively and factually, promoting harmony in the process.
6. Agree on one or more of the solutions.
Remember, the goal is for both of us to feel good about our decision. But suppose we've done a pro versus con list with a teen and we're still at odds.
Our recommendation is that the parent and teen brainstorm several additional potential solutions. We've found that when parents and teens do this, a choice usually emerges that they both like. This is different from a compromise because instead of both parties giving in, they've identified a new solution that they both find acceptable.
Sometimes the win/win solution becomes apparent with amazing ease and quickness. But it must be done in honor. As parents working through this process, we need to make sure we don't close our teen's spirit. Even after having a good drive-thru talking experience and doing a pro versus con list, anger can reemerge if a win/win solution isn't found right away. But if we remain persistent, most conflicts can be resolved.
7. Write down the agreement.
Because it's so easy to forget what decisions were made during an argument, it's good to develop the habit of putting agreed-upon solutions down on paper. That helps to assign responsibility for the future, as each person will then know exactly what's expected of him or her. It also holds those involved accountable for their future behaviors and choices.
8. Make sure anger is dealt with after the conflict has ended.
When we parents admit our contribution to the problem and seek forgiveness, our words and actions go a long way toward promoting honor and decreasing anger in a teenager's life.
We encourage you as a family to establish a mutually agreed-upon person who, in the event of a major impasse, will listen to both sides and help solve the problem. This goes beyond seeking wise counsel, which we discussed earlier. Find someone acceptable to each member of the family — someone who can remain unbiased, whom everyone respects and feels safe with, and who will maintain confidentiality and privacy.
Having such a person available gives your family support and accountability. Likewise, when you get an outside opinion to help solve a family conflict, you can tap into a source of new information or perspectives you hadn't considered before. That person might provide the fresh idea that helps you and your teen to find a win/win decision.
Part of resolving conflicts with our teens in honor is to recognize that they need the freedom to make more and more of their own choices. Just how many and how soon depends on their age and maturity level (it will be different for every child). This is a normal and necessary part of growing into adulthood. As they demonstrate the ability to make wise choices, they earn further responsibility.
As parents, we help them not only by giving them this increasing freedom, but also by holding them accountable for their decisions. If they make poor choices, they need to face the logical and natural consequences that follow. This is called discipline, which is a clear parental responsibility: "Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; he will also delight your soul" (Proverbs 29:17). For our teens, discipline is a learning opportunity. Look at what the Bible says about receiving it:
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. (Proverbs 12:1)
Poverty and shame will come to him who neglects discipline, but he who regards reproof will be honored. (Proverbs 13:18)
He who neglects discipline despises himself, but he who listens to reproof acquires understanding. (Proverbs 15:32)
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:11)
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. (Proverbs 12:1)
Poverty and shame will come to him who neglects discipline, but he who regards reproof will be honored. (Proverbs 13:18)
He who neglects discipline despises himself, but he who listens to reproof acquires understanding. (Proverbs 15:32)
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:11)
Agree ahead of time on what the consequences of poor choices will be. The more our teens know in advance about what to expect, the easier it is to hold them accountable.
As we've said before, there will also still be times when parents have to make a decision their teenagers don't like. In that case, it's essential for both parents to be in agreement. If they're not, teens will use the conflict to their advantage. (Most teens seem to have a built-in radar that detects even the slightest marital discord.) King Solomon wisely said, "Two are better than one. ... A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart" (Ecclesiastes 4:9, 12). So, once you and your spouse agree on a decision, instead of simply "laying down the law," explain lovingly why you have made that particular choice.
Conflict between parents and teenagers is inevitable, but it doesn't need to weaken their relationship or tear the family apart. Using drive-thru talking, establishing some basic rules for fair fighting, and utilizing the seven steps toward resolution described in this module will enable us to work out most disagreements in honor. If, after all that, a conflict has still not ended and a win/win solution hasn't yet been found, we can repeat the process or seek a third party to help bring about an honorable resolution.


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It's all fun an games till you put that big boy on the ground.. now its time to get to work
Martin cougarIII elite nitrous C cam X system & HHA
Darton Fury recurve
its all good.i will wait.after all the bengal is worth it
You know I was just ribbing you Digger. I'm really not that much of an @$$ (no matter what my teenager says)! When I see a dirt cheap Bengal or Pantera for sale I might just buy it to play with that Fury XT cam.
Firecat 400
Got some numbers on it now, just need to get the pics..........but I gotta run into town right now.......back in a couple hours.........
Barry, I'll be sure to get some pics of the STS mounting as well as some of the cam and mod setup, pretty slick setup.
Advantage Custom Strings
Definitely interested and excited to hear about the Bengal. Can't wait dude.
2014 Lithium :: 2007 Cheetah :: Jaguar Take-down
REAL AVID Field Staff / Bucks and Beards Scents Field Staff
Starting with the Pantera. Out of the box everything was adjusted very close to factory stated specs, the A2A was right on the money at 34" the brace was an 1/8" short, idler lean was very close and only took one twist in the right side yoke to get it perfectly staight. I decided to check the string and cable lengths and found the cable to be right on the money while the string was appox.an 1/8" long, put about 4 twists in it to bring it to spec and reinstalled both.
The model I have is a 70# model and actually maxed at 72.1# after adjusting the string length. As stated in my opening post there are 3 different posts on the cam for the buss cable to attach to, this is where they get both the draw weight and length adjustments from, along with the rotating mod.
With the cable set on the standard post and the mod set on the #1 position and the draw stop adjusted, the peak weight was 72.1# while the draw length came in at 27". I then moved the mod to the #5 position and adjusted the stop and ended up with a peak DW of 72.5 and DL of 31.5". I then moved the cable to the -10 post and got a peak DW of 60# and DL of 31", then moved the mod back to the #1 postion and got a DL of 26.5" while the DW stayed the same at 60#
For the last part of this test I moved the cable to the -20 post and got a 25" DL and 49# peak DW with the mod in the #1 position, I then moved the mod to the #5 position and sdjusted the stop and got a DL of 29.5" and a peak DW of 49.5#. Lots of adjustability with this cam.
For testing purposes I used a Limb Driver rest I had laying here. I adjusted the bow to my DL of 28.5" and due to some shoulder problems, I turned the DW down to 60.1#. I actually have my Onza set to 52# as 60#'s with the Nitro cams wears on my shoulder fairly quick.
The initial shot with the Pantera was actually a little disappointing as the bow was quite loud and had a good bit of vibration after the shot, not at all like the previous year Pantera. I replaced the stock BowJax 4 way bumper with a BowJax MacDaddy stopper and most of the noise disappeared although the vibration was still there, so I installed a BowJax Ultra string jax on the rest cord and the following shot was MUCH better, the bow was completely different, very quiet and the vibration was almost non exsistant. The addition of a good stabilizer would probably get rid of the rest of the vibration.
The draw cycle IMO lies somewhere between last years AcuTrak single cam and the Nitro cams as the DW builds quicker than the AcuTrak did but not quite as quick as the Nitro/Hybrix cams and transitions very well into a good valley that can be adjusted anywhere from very short to fairly long. I've never been a real big fan of single cams, but I really like the draw cycle and feel of this cam, thinking real hard right now about odering a 60# model for myself.
The fit, finish and overall feel of this bow is very good. The wood side plate inserts are a step up from last years inserts IMO. The carbon fiber STS is a very nice unit, well made, with lots of adjustability, and it looks darn good also. On the Pantera it mounts in the rear stabilizer location using the quick disconnect from last year. The only thing I found bad about the STS is the stock bumper is too stiff, i would swap it out for either the MacDaddy unit or the Limbsaver String Decelerator stopper.
Speeds..........I really don't like doing these, as they are subject to way too many variables such as different chronos, different lighting, how well the bow is tuned..etc...etc.., but I did run some arrows through my ProChrono Digital, which is very consistant from shot to shot, but is not what I would call an accurate unit, so take these numbers for what they are worth.......
I shot the bow setup to my specs, 28.5/60.1 using a Victory HV 400 weighing 301grs.....result averaged from 3 shots.....303fps
I then disreguarded what my shoulder was telling me and turned the draw weight up to 70.5 and used a Victory HV 350 weighing 354 grs. and got a 3 shot average of 307fps.
Heres a few pics.......
Notice the extra sight mount hole which will allow the sight to be mounted in either a low or high postion depending on a persons anchor point.
Advantage Custom Strings
sitting on the porch,tapping foot ,being as patient as possible ,waiting for the drama to transpire,me bad ,and need a bengal, that new puppy looks awesome,
Last edited by polaris754; 02-21-2012 at 12:43 AM.
THANKS Jim - for all you do!!!

subset: commoncrawl


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The Bulldogs (14-0) beat the Lathrop Junior Spartans (12-1) 30-12 in the Delta Youth Football League Super Bowl at Kimball High.
The Bulldog team has had the same coaching staff and many of the same players since 2009, when they were the Tracy Raiders novice team. Players are now in the 10- to 12-year-old age group.
"I feel like they've grown up with me," said defensive coach Keith Moody, whose son, K.J. Moody, has been on the team for four years. "I watched them when they were little guys. A lot of them were skinny back then, and now they're big and solid and great football players."
Moody, a former defensive back with the Oakland Raiders, including the 1980 season when they won the NFL Super Bowl, said that this Tracy Raiders/Junior Bulldogs team has gone 51-1 over the past four years. The one loss was to the Tracy Cougars in the DYFL South Conference championship game in 2009.
Bulldogs linebacker and fullback Kristien Reyes, who ran in touchdowns for his team in the second quarter and fourth quarter, has been on the team all four years. He said the players who joined the team for the first time this year also did their share to make it a perfect season.
"I wanted to win it just for the people who haven't won one yet," Reyes said about the game Saturday. "I still have butterflies every game, but everybody is sure we're going to win. I'm just so proud of my teammates."
Quarterback Joshua Wallwork, also with the team since 2009, said players started the season confident that they could win the championship again.
"We try hard in practice and make every play perfect," he said. "It pays off."
Saturday's game was a rematch of last year's Super Bowl, and this year the Spartans came into the game as the undefeated champions of the DYFL North Conference.
"I think we knew from the beginning that we would find this team in the Super Bowl, so we prepared for them all year long," Bulldogs coach Gabe McCarty said. "We prepared (the Bulldogs) for a close game, and they came out and made sure there was no doubt."
Also scoring for the Bulldogs was Joshua Alvarado, who grabbed a 7-yard pass from quarterback Wallwork in the second quarter and ran for a 3-yard touchdown in the third quarter. Hayden Patzer was three-for-four on conversion kicks, which are each worth two points.
Novice: Cougars 30, Trojans 14
The Cougars trailed 14-12 at the halftime but shutdown the Northwest Stockton Trojans in the second half to win the DYFL novice Super Bowl at Kimball High on Saturday.
"I think our kids were nervous in the first half. They haven't trailed in a game since we lost in the first week of September," said Cougars coach John Harvey. "The second half they responded. We just felt like we could stop a lot of the things (the Trojans) like to do."
Damon Lomas and Jorden Harvey scored for the Cougars in the first half. The Cougars took the lead early in the third on Lomas' 5-yard touchdown run. Devon Roberts scored in the third on a 26-yard run. Roberts made a 10-yard dash to the end zone in the fourth quarter. The Trojans forced a fumble as Roberts crossed the goal line, but the Cougars' Kainoa Ballungay was there to pick up the ball in the end zone to make it a 30-14 game.
"This team really came together about the middle of the season," Harvey said. "They set their goal, and their goal was to win this. The kids did it. We just had to point them in the right direction."
Contact Bob Brownne at 830-4227 or email@example.com.


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Okay, I have done alot of searching on the interwebs and I know how to do the cat whiskers but my issue is no bow press. Now I have heard it mentioned on here that you do not need a bow press to work on a martin bow. So how would you do the whiskers without the bow press to relieve tension on the string?
BTW I am on a mission to wipe out noise on my bow. Everything on the damn thing is vibrating loose. I found that the levers on the sight came loose and that was causing noise so I tightened them down and cut some noise down. I am now looking at the SOS and am going to put some foam behind the rubber and see what happens I also put rubber washers between the SOS and TRG to dampen out any noise there. Almost there I only have until Sept 17th to work the kinks out before I try and get first blood.


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text: I just finished reading the "new" Windswept, OK it is the fall issue and I got it a week or so ago. In any case they have changed the format a little and some of the content organization. Overall, it looks very nice and I like the content. I also like the direction that they claim they are going. One aspect is that they are now asking for some outside submissions for future publiction. While I do not know just what sort of thing they are looking for, I would encourage some here on the forum to submit some trail reports that I have seen. There are some very good writers and storytellers here that could give the forums, the mountain, and the observatory some good exposure. So if you are interested, go for it.


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Well, I've had the idea rolling around in my head for a few years and finally set out to put it on paper/screen. Three days later I have 10,000 words of fictional history on two countries and I've just begun the daunting task of beginning the actual story aspect of the thing.
My document is covered in footnotes of things than need to be illustrated or expanded on or literally written (including mentions of two mythical epic poems that I'll have to get to work on... sigh) but I'm feeling


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Once again I have the privilege of being a volunteer for the Mount Washington Observatory. I've actually lost track of how many times I've been up to do this now, but I wouldn't say I was a veteran, more of an intermediate. I've been paired with another volunteer again and for the next 7 days we'll cook and clean here at the Obs for the crew and some occasional guests. Our trip here was delayed by a day. A normal shift change day is Wednesday for the crew and volunteers, but this Tuesday night a cold front moved in and brought with it plummeting temperatures, low visibility and steady winds above the century mark which made a snow tractor ride to the summit impossible. The peak wind gust was 129mph Tuesday night into Wednesday morning, but Thursday morning broke bright and clear, and although still pretty cold, nothing like the wind-chills which forced last weeks crew to stay an extra day on the summit.
Our Destination
Home for the Next Seven Days
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Looking Down the Long Arm of the Southern Presidentials


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Axioma is currently seeking a qualified (Senior) Manager, Client Services, to join the team as risk model subject matter expert. This position reports to the Senior Director, Client Services, and is based in our New York office. Responsibilities: Plan and lead product8/25/2014 New York, NY Save This Job
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Job ID 2013-2173 Job Location US-NY-New York Category Media Type Full-Time More information about this job: About Bazaarvoice: Bazaarvoice brings the power of social commerce to the world's best brands, through our ratings and reviews technology. Social commerce happens when8/20/2014 New York, NY Save This Job
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Its that time again! I got the fever the other night and well my 920 just isn't cutting it these days (sarcasm). I orderd the parts the other night and some of them came in today, the rest will be showing up later this week.
New Specs:
G.Skill Ripjaws X 16gb PC2133
Antec P280
Corsair H100
Asus Blu-ray burner
Seasonic X650 PSU
Patriot Pyro 128gb SSD (I won that)
Pics will follow soon this weekend with the build!
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
Patriot Pyro 128gb SSD
Oh Hell Yeah!
This will be bad-ass!
Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.
Looking forward to the pics, love to see new build logs.
As promised a Build log from last night. Took my time about 4 hrs total on the build from start to finishing OS install.
The prebuild pic
Preping the case for the H100
Case is preped, removed the two top 120 fans. They will be relocated as intake fans.
PSU unboxing. I think PSU's deserve more unboxing pics.
Next to install is the PSU, Just a box picture. I love Seasonic!
Crown Royal any one?
O never mind its a PSU
PSU installed now time for the H100
H100 in the case, I am trying to figure out the instruction which are only pictures (Yes I use the instructions for stuff I dont know about)
It fits yay!
Close up of H100 install on Antec P280 case
Next is the mobo
Another Unboxing goodness.
Whats inside?
More of what is inside. Tons of connectors, also cam with dual wifi and bluttooth NEC card. I didnt Install it yet but maybe later as I am a LAN connection at the moment. Also for those who want to SLI/Crosfire there are a ton of connectors (SLI,Crossfire, 3 way SLI, 4 way SLI)
Next installing H100 Back plate
Mobo installed in case
H100 Cooler installed with the 2700k below
Installing the two 120mm fans that I removed from the top to the front on the case, Asus Blu-ray Burner dive installed as well
The dust cover installed over the fans, Also you can see 2 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.0 on the front of the case
16gb of G.Skill Ripjaws installed
G.skill ram fans installed also the Gigabyte GTX 670 Windforce Also starting the cable management (that was most of the build time)
The back side of the mobo tray with the bird nest of cables. Note I had to use a 8pin extension
another picture of it running while its installing windows
My plan is for a mild OC for both the CPU and GFX card. Will post results later once I get a stable clock that I like. Hope you enjoyed the build pics.
Thanks for the pics,.....it's a great looking PC and you'll love using it too.
You, sir, are awesome. I was speccing out the same build, of sorts, and had no clue how the G1.Sniper 3 would fit in the case (as in, covering grommets) and how the H100 would fit up top though I thought it would. I'm even looking at the same Gigabyte GTX 670 Windforce 3. Two of 'em, but same card nonetheless. Gotta put that PEX 8747 to work somehow.
Regardless, you have impeccable taste. =)
I signed up here just to follow this thread and hear about your metrics. I'm really interested in the thermal capacity of this case and how hot your GPU and CPU are getting. I've had a P180SE for 5 years now and while I love the thing to death for its cable management and forward thinking design (at the time) I know it bumps up case temps a bit. What concerns me most about this build overall is that the Windforce 3 cooler will vent a lot more into the case than the reference design. It should, since the fins point towards the motherboard and case wall and are not sealed for external ventilation. Seems like it could have an adverse effect on how cool you can get the H100 and the CPU and GPU in general. Another option would be to push air down onto the H100 from the top, but that only leaves the one 120mm vent fan in the back and the other holes near the GPUs.
Looking forward to your post. Now that I know it all fits, my trigger finger just got twitchy.
Loving the new build! Im hoping i can afford a new build next year but not getting any luck with the college life... lol
Haven't had much time to tweak it yet, busy with work (flying tons). But I was able to get some base benchmarks run, the only thing that is tweeked a bit is the CPU to 4ghz. Idle at the moment CPU cores are 37/37/35/34; GPU is at 35. Load is CPU 64/61/59/57 @4.0ghz, GPU 67
3d Mark11
PC mark 7
3d Mark Vantage
If you want to see other benchmarks let me know which ones.
very nice pics.
Wow, those temps are better than I expected, especially the GPU. Moving those fans to the front must help a lot in the exhaust of hot air from the GPU. That's very promising...
If I look at your build pics correctly, you have the H100 mounted for exhaust, correct? Have you experimented with flipping it over and making it intake cold air from outside the case? CPU temps would probably drop, though your GPU temps would probably increase slightly. All depends on how quick the air can be exhausted from the top rear vent and how much turbulence is created as well. Idle temps seem a bit high, but your load temps seem nice.
I pulled the trigger on my parts this weekend. Will update with any findings I have that may be of use since the build will be so similar. I'll have an extra GTX 670 in there, so I'm planning on starting with the H100 set up as intake due to the extra heat inside the case. I've also picked up a bunch of extra fans to experiment with. Couldn't decide which would be better, Noctua NF-F12 or Scythe Gentle Typhoon AP-15, for the radiator, so I snagged both. I'm going to start with the Noctua fans as they're PWM and I can hook them right up to either the H100 or the motherboard for speed control. Figure the AP-15s would still do nicely as intake, with the directed flow and increased static pressure helping to push air through the hard drive cage. Also got some Scythe Slipstream PWM fans (SY1225SL12LM-P) which I was going to put in the middle mount position, or swap out with the AP-15s, for general ventilation of the graphics cards. Could also have them on hand for...
An Eleven Hundred side panel. Found out that Antec will sell the side panel alone, though they didn't give me a price quote. Found out about that in another forum (http://www.forums.custompcreview.com/f78/replacing-antec-eleven-hundred-window-1101/) and if the cost is $30 or less, I'd be tempted to pick it up if the case and GPU temps get too high. Lose some of the silencing, but retain the 240mm radiator mount capability.
UPDATE: Heard back from Antec. The left side panel with window is $22.95 plus $5.00 for shipping in the US via UPS Ground.
yep I have the H100 set up as exhaust. I dont think having it as an intake would do much good for the internal case temps. It would prob drop the CPU temps a few degrees. But I would imagine it you increase the GPU temps a ton. At the moment I only have one of the front fans running and I didn't hook up the rear fan. I just got the cable extenders in the mail I plan on installing them this next weekend. I think It should drop the temps even more then they currently are. At the moment only the 2 H100 fans and one of the 120's on the front are running.
I have used both Scythe fans and Noctua fans. The scythe fans are nice but after time 6-9 months I started loosing max RPM with them, they started around 1900 and ended up at 1500. My Noctua fans thought always ran strong.
Der Meister:I have the H100 set up as exhaust. I dont think having it as an intake would do much good for the internal case temps.
You don't have any temp problems as it is, so don't 'fix' it. Most I would do is set the H-100 up in a push/pull configuration, but only if it becomes necessary to do.
Once you tweak things with the new fans and such, you'll be happy with it then. It's a great looking system and your temps are fine.
I would think that if you set up the fans as intake they may work against your other fans because hot air wants to raise. However, since i haven't tested the two setups i could be wrong.
Did you have problems with any of your corsair fans? Only asking because one of the two corsair fans that came with my cooler always ran at full speed. I later changed the fan since i couldn't change the speed in my bio's or a program to control it. I even hooked it up to another computer and it still ran at full speed, and the fan was very loud.
haven't had a problem with the corsair fan the are the standard corsair case fans. which means they have a switch attacked to them to control either low or high. They cant be controlled my the mobo to my knowledge. I just keep them on low, I like silent and fast computers.
Awesome build! Thanks for the pics and benches.
Now you're just mashing it!
How's the filter work on that case? I've got the Antec 1200, and cleaning the filters require more work than I'm willing to do on a monthly basis. From the picture it looks like it just slides out of there, vacuum, and you're done.
On a side note, I'm at that 4 year mark as well. However, I don't see a new build in my future for at least another year. I've just been picking up a few things here and there as I go to keep her going strong.
Filters are really easy to remove/replace, and from what I've seen so far do an excellent job catching dust. Checked them both after the first month and the front one caught a good amount of dust while the bottom one was barely dirty at all (on hardwood floor, with a dog, non-smoker). It should be noted, however, that I have my H100 mounted with the fans pushing into the case instead of out of it for lower base temps (by only a few degrees, most likely. haven't tested the other way around) and so dust can certainly enter my case here. If they were mounted to push out, I'd turn the rear fan inwards so I'd probably add a dust filter there and be done with it. In general though, my case is set to vent out the back and is set for positive pressure with 4 intake fans and one exhaust.
Oh wow, I didn't even notice there were two sets of filters on the front of there. I just saw the big one that's on the "door". On my case there's 3 front fans all pushing out, but somehow I just get a ridiculous amount of dust build up on the front. I do have 2 cats, but neither one of them go into that room, so I guess I just shed a lot.
Now you got me thinking... I think all of my fans are pointed outwards. I'm going to have check when I get home, i've been having heat issues with my GPU lately that I never used to have, might need to experiment a bit.
I have a hard and fast rule about case fans, and it works great for me.
Everything on the front and side is drawing air ~into~ the case.
Everything on the rear or the top is blowing air ~out~ of the case.
Every radiator has double the fans (both sides of the rad) in a push/pull configuration.
I do the same as neil above does. All of my front fans are intake back and top are exhaust.
Its super easy to clean them, and it helps keep the case much cleaner as well
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…But actually finished! I was lucky to be selected to participate in the 60-Day Project for the incredibly super-cool-as-heck Shellyfish. The idea behind the project is to send Shel's mom, who recently had a milestone birthday (her 60th!), a series of gifts from volunteers over 60 days. I love this idea and think it is very creative. I hope Shel's mom is enjoying her steady flow of love from bloggers around the world. My gift goes in the mail today:
A beautiful ball of organic cotton and linen yarn (because she knits), pretty color, isn't it?
A homemade card.
And, a few Snickerdoodles!
Hooray! Oh! And Happy Earth Day!!!!!!!!!!


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What do YOU use to clean your granite?
I posted this on the Cleaning board as well.
When I got my granite installed, the company I used said to only use soap and water and wipe dry.It sometimes seems like I have a cloudy film. One of the people I work with suggested 409 solid surface/granite spray.
Any one ever use this? Any suggestions to keep my granite shiny? It's only 6 months old. If I wipe and buff it, it's shiny, but it shouldn't be this hard, should it?
Hi Josie,
You're right, is shouldn't be that hard.
Dish soap is never a good idea for granite. It leaves a residue behind that builds up on your stone, causing that effect you describe.
Dish soap generally has emollients added, to keep your hands soft. Those emollients include oil, which is what you're trying to keep OFF of your stone. Dish soap can stain stone over time.
In your case, I'm not concerned about stains, because you did your research, and found a nice absolute black - which will never stain, and never needs sealer.
While I'm on that topic, it's completely inaccurate to say granite needs sealing twice a year. It's also wrong to recommend sealing to a consumer, without knowing the consumer's material. Steer clear of anyone talking like that.
Josie, whatever products you use, always check to be sure they do NOT contain any sealer. Lots of these wipes contain sealer. Also, you don't want anything that "polishes" your stone - those are basically waxes and oils.
I just had a client who had been using some "magic" product that had polish in it, to clean her Uba Tuba. Her tops were dull, unevenly so, and some areas were slightly smeary looking. Cleaning that mess up added almost two hours to the job.
If someone has used a stone polish/cleaner combinations on your tops, like maybe a hired cleaning service, it will cause you extra grief to clear up.
I've recommended 409 Stone Care, and Simple Green for Stone. I find the 409 has a pH that varies - even according to their specs, the pH can be anywhere from 9.0 to 11.5. Simple Green for Stone holds its tolerances better - 9.5 - which might mean their quality control is better.
Both products clean, but I've heard some complaints occasionally about 409 StoneCare leaving streaks. I don't know if that's a quality control issue, or simply that it was following a stone polish application, and just needed more elbow grease to work out. Regardless, 409 StoneCare won't hurt your kitchen. It works fine for many folks.
Most of my clients use Simple Green for Stone, and it works well.
With either of these, use directly, and if you find the cleaner leave streaks after three sessions, try clear water on a fresh towel. If that clears the streaks, you can simply dilute the cleaner with water, saving the full strength applications for heavier grease/grime.
I couldn't find the Simple Green, but several people recommended the 409 Stone Care. I tried it and i LOVE LOVE LOVE it.
My granite looks just like it did the day it was installed.
Thanks much for your pro advice
You're welcome. Glad it worked out.
Josie, we're having granite installed next week and the guy said basically what Chicago Stonepro said.
He told me that just warm water on a rag to wipe it down, then polish it dry with a towel...that should be all it needs.
We're getting "Dakota Mahogany" which is a fairly hard granite to begin with and doesn't absorb much.
I've had Granite before and never sealed it, it looked great.
Some people say they don't like Granite because you have to seal it every year. I have no idea why they think that. Maybe they have very light colored, softer granite.
~Jean~ in garden zone 6b
Hi Jean,
Stone porosity has nothing to do with its hardness. Those are two separate characteristics.
I really like the various flavors of Dakota Mahogany. It's one of my favorite stones, and I've worked with it quite a bit. It's often used for monument and architectural applications.
I can assure you, it is actually fairly porous, but is usually treated with plastic resin - mainly to make your countertop surface appear to not have any natural surface pits/character. A side benefit is an increase in water resistance. However, oil stains can still get through, and the plastic resin can block water based sealers.
Dakota Mahogany tends to disperse the appearance of oil stains via capillary action - but once the stone becomes noticeably darkened, the damage is done. Better to just seal it with solvent based sealer, and re do it annually.
Lots of folks think their stone looks great, but when I show up, I find the stuff all stained. They just don't know much better, until it's too late.
Of course, some material does resist stains better than others.
I just discovered Countertop Cleaner by Weiman which is recommended for all sealed stone. My counters are Silestone quartz. This product is wonderful. My counters have never looked or felt so clean.
Now I'm on a mission to find the best product for cleaning my brand new cork floors before it is even needed.
Phil, what kind of sealer do you recommend for Dakota Mahogany?
I don't mind sealing it and I don't want any stains.
~Jean~ in garden zone 6b
I tend to use DryTreat Stainproof, and sometimes StoneTech Impregnator Pro.
Weiman has been around a long time, has some good products.
I don't recommend anything with polish in it, however.
My grocery store also carries the Weiman granite and stone cleaner WIPES!!!
They almost look a little like baby wipies.....but for your granite. I love them as well.
OK, thanks. How often are you supposed to apply the sealer if you're going to seal the Granite?
~Jean~ in garden zone 6b
Phil, I looked at the label info on the Weiman Countertop Cleaner. It doesn't say anything about polish. Is there a particular ingredient I should be looking for?
Hi Jean,
I use DryTreat only the first year, then Impregnator Pro for subsequent years.
The label says it "cleans and shines". I suppose the shine part may mean it leaves a residue behind to increase the luster.
I used a Weiman product for marble, 20 years ago, and stopped because I found products by a specialty stone company I trusted, that seemed to work better. I don't have any current experience with Weiman.
As a general rule, I steer folks away from the more complex formulations - nothing against any particular company.
Anyway, a simple cleaner would likely just say it's a cleaner. You can always call the company.
Thanks, Phil
I use Method Granite Cleaner that I pick up at Target. It works great!
I have been using the Stone Tech pro line of cleaners and sealers. Chicago Pro, what is the difference between their professional products and their consumer line? My original installer got me some of their "professional" cleaners and sealers but now he is retired. Locally, they sell a slightly different group of the Stone Tech products.This message has been edited. Last edited by: 16paws,
Sorry paws, I didn't see this earlier.
DuPont bought them out a few years ago, and I'm not entirely pleased with their reformulations. Impregnator Pro was the first - and by far the best - sealer to successfully combine three major sealing technologies in one product. DuPont's "improved" formulation now relies on fluorocarbon technology alone, and it's too thick for some materials.
It's still a good sealer - but not as good as it used to be.
The remaining product line has moved to water based, and the idea is to make it easier for the average consumer to do a good job sealing their stone. Easier said than done.
This is nothing new. Sealer companies have been trying to get consumers to buy their products forever.
Years ago, I used to coach consumers on how to seal their own tops, believing that if I could do it, so could the average consumer. I really believed that. Experience taught me otherwise, because I've just seen too many issues, such as deep oil stains, and hardened sealer residue, along with damaged floor and cabinet finishes, mostly from poor procedure, but also from consumers using inferior or defective products, and/or using a product that was a poor fit for their material.
The water based sealers available now are certainly easier to use, but I regularly find the protection either doesn't hold up, or fails to properly materialize in the first place - and when the customer tries to re-seal, a weak sealer layer can block subsequent application attempts, so the effort fails.
In my experience, the solvent based products will penetrate weaknesses in existing sealer applications, which means you, the consumer, never have to experience "open" areas in your sealer protection, before the next sealer application can actually penetrate. That's a recipe for disaster, in my opinion, but that's the state of affairs with water based sealers.
I suppose the "Pro" line denotes the stuff with the solvent content, or concentrates that one has to dilute.
I have used Weiman granite cleaner and polish since 2008, when my granite counters were installed. The product works great, but I don't use it everyday.
For daily cleaning, I just use water and perhaps a dab of mild detergent, wiping up spills as they occur.
I have also not resealed my granite countertops since they were installed. I am lucky I have a granite with a lot of variety (Kashmir white). With time and daily use, it has darkened slightly, but the patina is quite lovely.
Your description of what's happened to your Kashmir White is consistent with my description of the effect of cleaners with polish in them. The stone becomes stained by them.
"Patina", can come from uv exposure, but is mainly the result of oil and grime from various sources - Including from "conditioners" or polish, in your stone cleaner.
Kashmir White is one of the most difficult stones to seal properly. For a time, many slab processors were resin treating it, to try to alleviate this, but then the finished countertops didn't have edges that matched the color of the surface, and the surface usually yellowed over time. On top of that, oil could still stain the stuff. Finally, that material is darker than normal when resin treated, and folks who admire that material often reject the resin treated slabs.
Many folks with that stone have similar experience to yours. Over time, the staining becomes generalized, the contrasts fade, and the overall appearance seems okay, though a bit darker and perhaps blotchier here and there.
I love the look of a good Kashmir White when it's new. For this reason, I prefer to keep it well sealed to allow time for cleanup, and to use simple but effective cleaners that won't leave their own residues, to keep the colors bright. It's a beautiful stone when it's new, and it really can stay that way.
Thanks for your explanation, chicago.
Since I rarely use Weiman's to polish my countertops (maybe 4 times per year, over 4 years), the culprits lie elsewhere. I keep my counters clean with water and mild detergent.
The patina is in just two areas, my center island and a little area around the cooktop. (The rest of my counters are pristine.)
Since I cook three meals a day, mostly on my gas cooktop, and use the island as my prep center, I am positive the culprits are olive oil, mayonnaise, sesame oil and all those wonderful ingredients that can spill or drip.
You're welcome
I just ran across this stone polish issue yesterday, cleaning and sealing a kitchen and bar in a home. The residue was thickest on the desk and bar.
The problem showed up as a smeariness that was really tough to clear. I started with heavy duty water based degreaser, rinsed it back, then used acetone. After repeating this a couple times, some areas still had a bit of persistent residue. Sometimes the solvent mix in the sealer will handle the remaining polish residue. This was the case yesterday.
It's a time consuming and expensive process, using sealer as a cleaner - and it works best when the bulk of the lighter residue is gone.
My arms are sore.
Their stone has a much clearer appearance now. It feels good to get all that gunk out of their material.
For your Kashmir, you may want to poultice the oil stains. I found a great product called Oil & Grease Stain Remover, by Prosoco. It's easy to use, works extremely well, and is far cheaper than the DuPont product I used to use.
Here in Chicago, I get it from a masonry products yard. It's about $40.00 for a gallon. Here's a link to the product web page:
For regular cleaning of oils from granite, you need something alkaline, made for granite. Stay away from dish soap, because the skin conditioners in it are basically oils, which stain the stone, and leave sticky tough residue build-up behind.
Also keep in mind that soaps bond with magnesium and calcium in water, to become a really tough residue. Detergent doesn't do this, and is the formulation basis for a good stone cleaner.
Thanks, Phil. Someday when I am feeling especially ambitious, I may give that poultice a try.
My mom always used 50/50 alcohol and water in a spray bottle. It cleans and disinfects and it doesn't leave behind a gross residue I don't think. And it's cheap which is always a plus.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Anna Vaughn,
Thanks, Phil for the info. I think that I will buy the pro products online and use them.
You're welcome, Paws.
The StoneTech product line has changed in recent years, and I'm not as impressed with the present formula of the daily cleaner. For regular cleaning, I really feel Simple Green for Stone works just fine.
No harsh chemicals are required to maintain granite's beauty. A simple solution of one part white vinegar and two parts water could do the job. An annual sealing will definitely make your Granite Countertops looking good as new.
after using it, clean with water and soap. make sure that your counters are always dry, most cleaners may leave streaks if not dried immediately.
I just joined this site...what is your opinion of Forever Seal for limestone? It is in our master bathroom and has been sealed by us several times but is losing its shine and looks dull. Thank you!
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Laura Burton
35th season: Musical director of Mother Courage and Her Children. Stratford: Over 30 musicals, most recently Jacques Brel Is Alive and Well and Living in Paris (musical director) and Wanderlust, Jesus Christ Superstar, West Side Story and Cabaret (associate conductor). Music director of The Grapes of Wrath. Composing credits include Hamlet, Inherit the Wind, Romeo and Juliet and King Lear. Elsewhere (selected): Musical director of Rich and Famous (ACT); Oliver! and The Music Man (Citadel); A Christmas Carol (ACT and YPT); The Impresario (TNB). Composer for I Am My Own Wife (NAC); A Streetcar Named Desire (Walnut Street Theatre); The Misanthrope, Don Carlos (Soulpepper); A Midsummer Night's Dream (Canadian Stage); Cyrano (Citadel). Musical director of Brent Carver's concerts at Soulpepper. Awards: Five Guthrie Awards (most recently in 2011), two Sterling Awards.


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Miley Cyrus: 'Hannah Montana' and beyond
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I have a standard 18-55mm and a tele-zoom lens (cant rember the size) but i really want some thing to take landscapes. Thing is there are so many types so was wondering if one of you Pros could help.
Thing is Im looking at Jessops website and confused on the descriptions.
One in particular the focal length is 24mm yet another says 10-24mm.. so which is the better ?
In a nutshell can someone advise what kind of wide angel lens I could go for ?
Sadly Im a tight arse or rather to be honest not flushed so around the 200-250 mark would be ideal That said Im waiting for someone to say dont bother on that price


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About 6 months ago it started making a noise when I turned on the heat or air. It did not do it...
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Medicinal Chemistry
Medicinal chemistry is concerned with the chemistry underpinning the design, discovery and development of new pharmaceuticals. The discovery of new drugs is one of the most exciting and rapidly developing fields in science, and there is a growing need for safer, more effective pharmaceuticals against old diseases (like cancer), new ones (such as HIV/AIDS) and diseases that are becoming more widespread (such as malaria and tuberculosis). Medicinal chemistry looks at how to find drugs to combat these diseases, and how to make those drugs.
A major in medicinal chemistry includes the study of natural and synthetic compounds of biological and medicinal importance, how molecules interact with each other and how specific molecules can influence metabolic pathways in living organisms. All of this will help you understand how drugs work at the molecular level, and how to design drugs that are more powerful and more selective.
For more information on the program structure and content, view the Science Undergraduate Handbook.
Major outline
You will include junior chemistry units among your first year units. It is a good idea to plan ahead and have an idea of which senior units you need to complete, so that you can plan your junior and intermediate prerequisite units accordingly.
You will take intermediate units of study in chemistry and pharmacology, which are prerequisites for your senior units of study.
To complete your medicinal chemistry major, you will take 24 credit points of senior chemistry units and senior pharmacology units.
Drug Design and Development
Pharmacology Fundamentals
Pharmacology: Drugs and People
Course accreditation
Bachelor of Science graduates with a major in medicinal chemistry are eligible for membership of the Royal Australian Chemical Institute (RACI).
Graduate opportunities
With a major in medicinal chemistry, you can work in universities, corporate laboratories, pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries and hospitals. You will possess strong analytical and laboratory expertise in determining possible curative and preventative drugs for diseases such as cancer, AIDS, hepatitis, polio and even the common cold.
Further study for major
If you are interested in furthering your specialisation in medicinal chemistry, you may wish to undertake an honours year and a subsequent postgraduate research program, subject to admission requirements.
Opportunities for honours and postgraduate research are available for eligible students in a variety of specialised medicinal chemistry fields through the School of Chemistry and the Department of Pharmacology.
Completing your honours year is an important step in exploring your potential for a career in research, as it involves completing a research project in your specialised area, under the supervision of an expert in that field. If you do well enough, you might be eligible to apply for a research program like the MSc or PhD, where you can take your research even further.
Related subject areas
Agricultural Chemistry