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Massachusetts Sensible Marijuana Policy Initiative, Question 2 (2008)
Voting on Marijuana | |||
Ballot Measures | |||
By state | |||
By year | |||
Not on ballot | |||
Contents |
The Sensible Marijuana Policy Initiative, also known as Massachusetts Ballot Question 2, was an initiated state statute that replaces current criminal penalties with civil penalties on adults possessing an ounce or less of marijuana.[1] The initiative appeared on the November 4, 2008 ballot in Massachusetts, where it was approved.[2]
Election results
Massachusetts Question 2 (Sensible Marijuana Policy) | ||||
Result | Votes | Percentage | ||
Yes | 1,949,704 | 62.8% | ||
No | 1,038,523 | 33.5% |
Official results via: The Massachusetts Secretary of the Commonwealth Elections Division
Specific Provisions
The measure enacted the following provisions:
- Replace criminal penalties with a US$100 fine of which the proceeds go to the city where the offense takes place.
- Eliminate collection of Criminal Offender Record Information (CORI) reports for minor infractions.
- Maintain current penalties for selling, growing, and trafficking marijuana, as well as the prohibition against driving under the influence of marijuana.
- The law requires additional penalties for minors not in current law such as Parental notification, compulsory drug awareness program, 10 hours community service, and a larger fine of $1,000. In addition, possible delinquency proceedings for those under 17 if the requirements are not completed.
The law represents a break with current Massachusetts law, where people charged with marijuana possession face criminal penalties of up to six months in jail and a $500 fine, and a CORI report is filed.
On Tuesday, September 10th 2008, a city councilor in Worcester called for a vote on a measure to express the opposition by the city of Worcester to the initiative. The city council rejected the vote on a procedural basis by a 10-1 vote, with the only vote for taking up the measure coming from the councilor that requested the vote. The reason it was rejected due to it not being the responsibility of local government to take a position on ballot initiatives.
The leading proponent of the initiative was the Committee for Sensible Marijuana Policy. Whitney Taylor serves as the committee's treasurer and chairwoman.[3][4]
Other supporters included:
See List of Massachusetts Ballot Question 2 (2008) supporters
Arguments in favor of Question 2
Supporting arguments advanced by the proponents included:[5]
- Saving Massachusetts $130 million per year, according to a 2002 report by Harvard economist Jeffrey Miron.
- Instances of minor marijuana possession would no longer affect a person's ability to obtain a job, housing, and school loans.
- Currently there are approximately 2.8 million CORI records on file for 6 million people.
- Small convictions have been shown to have little or no impact on drug use.
The National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse (also known as the Shafer Commission) was created by Public Law 91-513 in 1972 to study marijuana abuse in the United States. It published its findings in a report called Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding and recommended that the president should decriminalize possession of marijuana in amounts that constituted "simple possession".[6]
At this time there are 30 non-binding public policy questions calling for civil fines for possession of marijuana rather then criminal penalties that have passed in legislative districts throughout Massachusetts since 2000. These questions were passed with an average of 62% of the vote in favor. No Public policy question related to replacing criminal penalties with civil fines has ever failed in the state of Massachusetts.[7]
The Joint Mental Health and Substance Abuse Committee of the Massachusetts General Court voted 6-1 in favor of a bill that would have made possession of less than an ounce of marijuana punishable by a civil fine.[8]
Billionaire George Soros made an initial contribution of $400,000. The committee has also received $750,000 cash as well as about $320,000 in donated time and services from the Marijuana Policy Project, an organization created to reform marijuana laws in the united states. According to campaign finance reports, as of November 1, 2008 the committee has raised approximately US$1,250,000 to help pass the measure with $40,060.90 remaining. [9]
The Coalition for Safe Streets was the leading opponent of Question 2. Jonathan W. Blodgett, the Essex County District Attorney serves as the Coalition's treasurer and chairman.
Members and supporters of the opposition coalition included:
See List of Massachusetts Ballot Question 2 (2008) opponents
Arguments against Question 2
Arguments that were made against Question 2 included:
- It gives the wrong message to kids and may cause more to use drugs
- Makes it easier for drug dealers to sell marijuana without being arrested
According to Campaign Finance reports, as of November 1, 2008 the ten committees representing district attorneys in Massachusetts have contributed approximately $2,275 each to the Coalition along with a donation of $2,500 from the Worcester County Deputy Sheriffs Association as well as a few other donors for a total of approx $60,000, After expenditures they have $0 to fight the initiative and $2,601.92 in outstanding liabilities. [10]
Newspaper editorial opinions
In favor of Question 2
Newspapers that editorialized for a "yes" vote on Question 2 included:[11]
- The Daily Free Press
- The Bay State Banner
- The Harvard Crimson
- The Newton TAB
- The Milford Daily News
- The Springfield Republican
- The Metrowest Daily News
- The Daily News Tribune
- The Brookline TAB
- The Fall River Herald News
- The Danvers Herald
- MIT Tech
Opposed to Question 2
Newspapers that editorialized for a "no" vote on Question 2 included: [12]
- Berkshire Eagle
- Boston Globe
- Boston Herald
- Brockton Enterprise
- Cape Cod Times
- Eagle Tribune
- Lynne Daily Item
- Lowell Sun
- New Bedford Standard Times
- Patriot Ledger
- Salem News:
On September 17, 2008, the Committee for Sensible Marijuana Policy filed complaints with the Office of Campaign and Political Finance and the Attorney General's office against the Massachusetts District Attorney Association, the 11 state district attorneys and O'Neill and Associates, a Boston public relations firm. Violations of the campaign finance law could result in up to 1 year in jail and a $1,000 fine.[13][14]
Also, Middlesex District Attorney Gerry Leone has stated that in the event the majority of voters in the State of Massachusetts were to pass the initiative, he will attempt to override the vote and defeat it in an appellate process. [15]
Alleged Complaints
- Under Massachusetts law, it is illegal to solicit, receive, or spend funds to support or oppose a ballot initiative without first forming a political committee. CSMP alleges that the district attorneys solicited, received, and spent donations before they were legally allowed to, attempting to conceal their campaign activity for as long as they could.
- CSMP further alleges that the district attorneys used public funds to post and house a statement urging voters to reject the decriminalization initiative on its Web site, a violation of Massachusetts election law, which prohibits public officials from using public resources to advocate for or against a ballot initiative. The statement on the state run Massachusetts District Attorneys Association website says that if the question is approved, "any person may carry and use marijuana at any time,".
- They also further assert that the statement is false and misleading.
Ruling on "false information" complaint
Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley rejected the complaint against the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association. She further advised that the statements made by the district attorneys are a matter of their opinion, not of fact, as although the bill maintains the act of the actual possession to be illegal it does not explicitly state public use is illegal and only "allows" towns the option to add further prohibitions on public use. However it should be noted that smoking marijuana in public would qualify as possession which would still be illegal and subject to this initiative as well as its fines and confiscation absent a more strict local ordinance which could provide additional penalties. Coakley advised the proponents on Question 2 that they have the option of appealing her ruling in civil court. Coakley is a member of the Coalition of Safe Streets along with the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association.
Coakley's ruling dismissed the "false statements" allegation but did not take up the question of the allegations that have been made by Question 2's supporters alleging campaign finance improprieties. Coakley is an endorser of the campaign committee that opposes Question 2.[16] .
A Suffolk University / WHDH Channel 7 poll found that 72% of Greater Boston residents are in favor of replacing criminal penalties with civil fines for carrying an ounce or less of marijuana. The poll was conducted with 400 residents between July 31 and August 3, 2008.[17]
A FastTrack poll by WBZ TV / Survey USA on September 17th showed that 69% of all Massachusetts voters would favor either decriminalization or legalization. It was broken down to show that 30% want it to remain a crime, 31% want it changed to a civil fine, and 38% would like it to be legalized completely. The poll had a margin of error of 4.5%. [18]
Petition drive to qualify
The support group collected over 105,000 to meet the initial requirement of 66,593 valid signatures. Since Massachusetts is an indirect initiative state, this meant that the Massachusetts State Legislature had to take up the proposed measure. Since the legislature declined to act on it by early May, the supporter then had until June 18, 2008 to collect another 11,099 signatures to ensure that the initiative is placed on the November 2008 statewide ballot, a goal at which they succeeded at.[19], [20],[21]
This initiative will become public law 30 days from the date it is presented to the Governor's Council. The Governor's council generally meets in late November or early December. The legislature also may amend or pass a new law to prevent it's becoming law as it has done on other voter approved initiatives in the past. However, Hampden District Attorney William M. Bennett said Wednesday that in the spirit of the ballot initiative he will drop all pending charges of possessing an ounce or less of marijuana and will no longer prosecute any new cases effective immediately.
See also
External links
- Text of initiative
- Yes on Question 2, support website
- No on Question 2, opposition website
- Attorney General's Opinion 07-09
- Campaign finance registration statement of support committee
- Committee for Sensible Marijuana Policy Radio spot
- Committee for Sensible Marijuana Policy Television spots
- 2008 Massachusetts Voters Guide
- 2008 Massachusetts Official Election Results
- ↑ The Intiative - Committee for Sensible Marijuana Policy
- ↑ About the Intiative
- ↑ Sensible Marijuana Policy
- ↑ Committee for sensible marijuana policy endorsements
- ↑ Boston Herald: "Marijuana measures head to voters, Hill," Jan. 27, 2008
- ↑ DrugLibrary.org: "Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding - 1972 Report"
- ↑ Marijuana Policy Project: "New poll shows 71% in favor of Massachusetts decriminalization initiative," Sep 22, 2008
- ↑ Herald News: "Marijuana fight nears," Feb 16, 2006
- ↑ Committee for sensible marijuana policy donations
- ↑ Coalition for safe streets finance reports
- ↑ Newspapers in support of question 2
- ↑ Newspapers in opposition to question 2
- ↑ Boston.com: "Supporters of marijuana ballot question lodge complaint," Sep 18, 2008
- ↑ Berkshire Eagle: "Marijuana proponents take on state attorneys," Sep 18, 2008
- ↑ The Boston Phoenix: "Blunt object," Sep 24, 2008
- ↑ Boston Herald: "Martha Coakley dismisses marijuana question complaint," Sep 30, 2008
- ↑ The Daily Cannabinoid: "Massachusetts Looks To Turn Over New Leaf On Pot," Aug 15, 2008
- ↑ wbztv.com: "WBZ-TV Video Archive," Sep 17, 2008
- ↑ Boston Globe: "4 ballot petitions clear 1st obstacle," Nov. 24, 2007
- ↑ Boston Globe: "Proposal to decriminalize pot clears a hurdle," Nov, 21, 2007
- ↑ Massachusetts Law Updates: "Proposals to decriminalize marijuana," February 1, 2008


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How Our Gardens Change
Mt. Cuba Center
Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 10
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Instructor: Gregg Tepper, Mt. Cuba Center
The garden is magical as one display fades and another appears. This three-part lecture and garden walk series gives students a chance to experience seasonal change across a three-month window in Mt. Cuba Centers Woods Path and Sunny Border gardens. Our Director of Horticulture, Gregg Tepper, will share ideas and hints for effective displays that withstand the test of time and explain the intriguing garden transformations possible across the changing seasons.
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The university's current enrollment stands at 1,232 students, an increase from last year's 1,080 students at the same time. President Dr. J. Thomas Isherwood said he anticipates 1,300 students to be enrolled following the drop-add period.
Isherwood said in an interview Thursday that this is the most significant enrollment increase the university has ever seen.
"It comes at a time when many other institutions are not seeing that kind of growth," Isherwood said. "I think it really speaks to the quality of programs and to the extent that we're addressing, in many ways, students' interests and student needs within our programs."
Isherwood said meeting the 11 percent growth in student enrollment is important to the university and the school will be doing so with the addition of a new residence hall, athletic fieldhouse and the Ken White Music Center.
"This year, we'll be the largest music program at any private institution in the state of Georgia," Isherwood said. "That's going to be a new challenge and a sense of excitement for us."
Isherwood said student tuition will increase about 2.5 percent this year.
"We're hopeful that we can keep that kind of small increase in the future," Isherwood said.
Hubbard Hall, a proposed residence hall, will go before the Board of Trustees for approval with plans to break ground on the facility in about a month, Isherwood said. The additional housing is greatly needed on the campus, as 25 students will live with three people in two-person dormitories this fall.
Isherwood said the number of students living three-to-a-room will likely decrease after the first semester.
"We have some students who graduate every semester and probably, with the students who graduate in December, there will be a sufficient number of students who leave and we'll be back to having everyone in a double (room)," Isherwood said.
Isherwood said the residence halls have a capacity of 605 students with 630 living in dormitories this fall. The 25 in triple rooms received a discounted rate, Isherwood said, noting the rooms are still a "very good size and very convenient."
The school will also see 140 football players on campus to begin practicing for the team's first game scheduled for the 2013 season.
"There will be a lot of new students, a lot of new buildings, 10 new full-time faculty and a lot of excitement," Isherwood said.
Another new addition for the fall semester is the master's degree program in business administration that is now available at the Woodstock campus. Additionally, the school will offer an online program in criminal justice with a new class starting every 10 weeks.
In January, the university will begin an online bachelor's degree program in health administration.
Last year, the university raised approximately $6 million in its capital funds campaign in the spring, with a goal of raising $22 million by 2012.
The funds will be used in part to build a science building officials intend to begin construction on this fall. Isherwood said the building will be available for students in the fall of 2013.
"It's an exceptionally busy time right now," Isherwood said. "I think there is such a positive feeling on campus about all of the wonderful development due to the hard work of faculty and staff and really the spirit students bring to this institution."
Stephen Karafa, a senior at Reinhardt and new student orientation coordinator, said he's most excited about the new athletic fieldhouse and future football stadium.
The Villa Rica native said he plans to return as an alumni for the football games to cheer on the Eagles.
"I have been here three years and its exciting to be here and see the culture of change," Karafa said.
The 20-year-old, who lives in East Apartments on campus, said the three-to-a-room situation for some has not produced any complaints so far.
"We're all excited to be here and be apart of a historic moment for the university as the largest class," Karafa said.


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You're watching...
Tropical Storm Isaac Continues to Test New Orleans Levees
FNC's Shepard Smith on the flooding and damage caused by Tropical Storm Isaac.
Aug 29, 2012
You're watching...
FNC's Shepard Smith on the flooding and damage caused by Tropical Storm Isaac.
Aug 29, 2012
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Everybody I'm Gerri Willis tonight we begin with the up to the minute coverage on tropical storm Isaac which as you know has been -- Havoc in the Gulf Coast.
The now deadly storm making eight painstakingly.
Slow trek in -- with major surges and flooding expected throughout the night.
Fox News anchor Shepard Smith is down in New Orleans with the very latest what's going on there.
What Jerry if you wrote this out of the central business district -- in the French Quarter of New Orleans should say we got a lot of rain there was a little flooding.
But if you wrote it out south of here in plaque in his parish Louisiana or east of here along the Mississippi coast.
You might think you're revisiting -- -- from seven years ago in fact the plaque -- parish president said today.
That the flooding in his area south of New Orleans was worse today than it was weakest Katrina struck Mississippi seven years ago.
Louisiana residents are still without power this storm has been downgraded but still seventy mile an hour maximum sustained winds so.
Very close to hurricane status and you sit painstakingly slow -- you are spot -- This storm is moving -- but six miles per hour it's expected to drench the New Orleans area tonight as the rain bands come in over the next couple of hours.
And -- storms through ferocity is expected be felt all the way up the state of Mississippi.
For the next 48 hours in all their years with storms like this since Hurricane Betsy in 1965.
The locals say they have never seen anything -- this area in a way like this.
Numerous rescues south of here in -- and its -- throughout the day.
Dozens and dozens of people taken from their homes.
And nursing home was evacuated short time ago the governor Bobby Jindal they are on scene.
Across in the state of Mississippi south of highway ninety which is the coastal route.
Flooding is across two counties in bay saint Louis Mississippi widespread flooding in some areas homes are said to be underwater.
A number of roads are impassable highway ninety is knocked out highway 43 of the town of -- -- out.
In Louisiana it's expected that people may not get their power back in some areas for at least a week.
The trucks to restore the power can't even go yet because in some areas there's still facing -- so did so strong.
That'd be difficult for emergency workers even to get -- so for a category one storm.
This thing has sat and spun for so long that the flooding has been ridiculous and in some Louisiana towns they have rain totals now.
Above 23 inches and counting -- it is astounding.
That is astounding you know this was the first big test of the levees down there.
Have they do.
The levees held up well they didn't get the test they thought they might.
We've had seven point eight inches of rain officially in New Orleans a little bit more on -- -- -- train.
But that sort of thing over 24 hour period they say they can handle that storm surge is the next matter if you were to look at the -- happens -- New Orleans is here.
The eye of the storm is still slightly south of New Orleans so is it passes up and -- toward -- -- The storm surge will begin that'll be another test for these levees the tests are not over.
In fact they're telling people don't get out of your house is now just because it seems dry and it seems like it's not windy.
The winds are coming back and so is the rate the test is all on -- they haven't signed off on it yet it hasn't been handed into the teacher but right now it looks pretty good Jerry.
Well -- it's it's been fascinating to watch your coverage has been excellent.
But did I hear you say you've covered seventy the last seventy hurricanes -- -- I have that wrong.
I think I third I think 38 I think this is nine in New Orleans.
And and it is -- New Orleans itself goes Orleans has done very well the power never went off in in this part of town.
Not -- -- not essential businesses to -- power or -- the French Quarter but just south of here another story jury.
Wow we're going to be covering the damaged.
What's happened in the wake of this all through the hour here updating people on flood insurance coverage what they needed now Shepard Smith is always a pleasure to see use -- My -- Jerry thank you.
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This place was nice,the bungalow was new and clean,a bit expensive but it is just on the beach.the restaurant was not good at all!I got stomache afrer that!Sairee beach is beautiful,the sea is shallow and that's good for kids but there are too many boats,taxi and fisherman boats.I might not go back
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- Official Description (provided by the hotel):
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Craig T. Nelson Movies
Solidly built American actor
Craig T. Nelson
started out as a comedy writer and performer, doing radio and nightspot gigs in the Los Angeles area. Success was not immediately forthcoming, and Nelson took a four-year sabbatical from show business, moving with his family to a remote cabin in Northern California. In 1979, he made his first film,
...And Justice For All,
written by his onetime partner
Barry Levinson
While subsequent roles in
and Silkwood followed, Nelson would find true stardom on television. For eight seasons beginning in 1989, he starred as college athletics instuctor Hayden Fox on the top-ranked ABC sitcom Coach. Appearing alongside supporting players Jerry Van Dyke and Shelly Fabares, Nelson received an Emmy for his work on the show in 1992.
After Coach, Nelson showed up in a few small roles in feature films and television mini-series before returning to series work in 2000, leading the cast of CBS's D.C.-based cop-drama The District. While enjoying the success of that show, Nelson found time for his first high-profile feature film role in over a decade, providing the voice of the head of a family of superheroes in the 2004 Disney/Pixar animated film The Incredibles. In 2005 he played the patriarch of the dysfunctional clan in The Family Stone, and followed that up two years later as skating coach in the comedy Blades of Glory. He was Ryan Reynolds disapproving dad in the hit comedy The Proposal in 2009. He was cast as the head of the Braverman clan in NBC's relaunch of Parenthood in 2010, and appeared in the inspirational Soul Surfer in 2011. ~ Hal Erickson, Rovi
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In this suspense drama, a college student finds himself immersed in forces beyond his control. Born and raised in a working-class Connecticut community, Luke McNamara (Joshua Jackson) made it into an Ivy League college, where he's done quite well; his dream is to be accepted into Harvard Law School, but he knows that it will take more than a good report card to beat out the competition. When an upper-crust secret society called the Skulls asks Luke to join, he eagerly accepts, thinking that the club's connections will help him gain acceptance to Harvard. He enjoys the Skulls' luxurious lifestyle, but when his roommate, a journalism student, dies of an apparent suicide, he's convinced that something is wrong. The deeper Luke digs into the secrets of the Skulls, the more he's convinced that his friend's death was no suicide and that he's put himself in more danger than he imagined. The Skulls was the first starring vehicle for Joshua Jackson, who gained fame on the TV series Dawson's Creek; the supporting cast includes Paul Walker, Craig T. Nelson, Hill Harper, and William L. Petersen. ~ Mark Deming, Rovi
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The District [TV Series]
Craig T. Nelson stars as Jack Mannion, a policeman brought in to fight crime in the nation's capital in this television drama series. After a controversial but successful stint as chief of police in Newark, NJ, Mannion makes a positive impression on Deputy Mayor Mary Ann Mitchell (Jayne Brook) and is hired to do the same job in Washington, D.C. But the D.C. police's Chief of Patrol, Joe Noland (Roger Aaron Brown), isn't quite as impressed with his new boss, whose tough exterior is leavened with a broad sense of humor. Don Baker (John Amos), D.C.'s mayor, often butts heads with the new chief of police, who takes a firm stand against internal corruption and doesn't shrink from placing responsibility on his own officers. Working alongside Mannion are statistics clerk Ella Farmer (Lynn Thigpen), public affairs director Nick Pierce (Justin Theroux), and Irish beat-cop David McGregor (David O'Hara). The District premiered on the CBS television network on October 7, 2000. ~ Mark Deming, Rovi
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Jean de Segonzac directs Richard Crenna and Craig T. Nelson in the police thriller To Serve and Protect. Police officer Tom Carr begins to look into the death of a woman, but his suspicions that his perp is a serial killer become more pronounced after the death of a judge. Although Carr is able to get help from two other generations in the Carr family, he must step up his game when the killer takes an unexpected hostage. ~ Perry Seibert, Rovi
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Rockne S. O'Bannon scripted this two-part TV miniseries adaptation of Peter Benchley's novel, found floating in the wake of his Jaws and The Beast. The origins of the tale's hybrid horror begin in 1972 at a secret Navy base off St. Lucia, where researchers cross a dolphin with a great white shark, creating a monster to generate fear and loathing in Vietnam. The Navy covers up the failed experiment, and 25 years later, cut to the Chase -- namely, scientist Simon Chase (Craig T. Nelson), who moves to the island to research a cancer-shark connection. Chase brings along his scientist ex-wife (Kim Cattrall), his 15-year-old son, Max (Matthew Carey), and their pet sea lion. Naturally, the "creature" resurfaces and gnaws on islanders -- with Chase soon in pursuit. Creature effects by Stan Winston. Filmed in St. Lucia, West Indies and Vancouver, British Columbia. Premiered May 17, 1998 on ABC. ~ Bhob Stewart, Rovi
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The Devil's Advocate
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Supernatural forces hover over the courtroom in this devilish drama adapted from the novel by Andrew Neiderman. Attorney Kevin Lomax (Keanu Reeves) doesn't heed the Bible-based warnings of his mother (Judith Ivey), who views New York City as "the dwelling place of demons." Instead, he leaves Gainesville, Florida, with his wife Mary Ann (Charlize Theron) to put his legalistic skills to the test at a leading Manhattan law firm run by John Milton (Al Pacino). It all goes smoothly -- with Milton urging them to stay, putting Kevin on a $400-per-hour salary, and moving the couple into a luxurious apartment in his own building on Fifth Avenue -- where Mary Ann falls under the influence of neighbor Jackie (Tamara Tunie). After Kevin defends a weird animal sacrificer (Delroy Lindo, uncredited), he moves up to an important case with an apparent murderer, real-estate tycoon Alexander Cullen (Craig T. Nelson). Ignored by Kevin, the troubled Mary Ann has some disturbing experiences, verging on the occult, while Kevin, at work, becomes attracted to redhead Christabella (Connie Neilsen). Dazzled by his entrance into paradise, Kevin doesn't grasp who handed him this Big-Apple success. Could it be...Satan? The film features demonic creatures by Rick Baker. Cameos (Senator Alfonse D'Amato, Don King, others) add to the ambiance of ambition and power in the canyons of Manhattan. ~ Bhob Stewart, Rovi
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The compilation film If These Walls Could Talk consists of three short films that each deal with the controversial issue of abortion. Although each of the stories is set in a different decade, the unifying element (aside from the subject matter) is that all three transpire in the same house. The first story stars Demi Moore as the widow of a soldier killer in combat. She becomes pregnant and does not feel it would be morally appropriate to have the baby. Because it is the '50s, she must attempt to secure an illegal abortion. The second story, set in the '70s, stars Sissy Spacek as a mother of a struggling family. Having successfully raised four children on a meager income, Spacek's character must now decide if she should seek an abortion after finding out she is expecting a fifth. The final story takes place in the '90s. Anne Heche portrays a grad student who crosses protestors' picket lines in order to consult a doctor (Cher) about having an abortion. The first two parts, "1952" and "1974," were directed by Nancy Savoca, and the last part, "1996," was helmed by Cher, in her directorial debut. If These Walls Could Talk aired originally on HBO. ~ Perry Seibert, Rovi
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text:
congrats, well done
can you send me the 4000BC savegames for both the 396AD and this game, please
Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, small map, playing as Americans.
Starting techs: Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws.
Got off to a late start, didn't found my capitol until 3650BC,
but tipped a hut for Monarchy on the 3rd or 4th turn.
3650 MONARCHY. Washington founded.
475 NEWTON's U
1 AD Superhighways
160 Computers
180 Flight
240 Space Flight
320 Fusion Power. Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1
356 Arrive AC
The SSC ended up at size16, no ST, 10% lux rate.
Compared to my 396 game this one was 9 turns behind at Superhighways and Flight, 5 turns behind at Space Flight/Apollo and 1 turn behind at Fusion Power, but the ship launched immediately. Part of this milestone lag was illusory, caused by taking a different path through the tech tree (I had Laser before Flight). And the rest was caught up at the end with offshore freight deliveries to a foreign civ. These brought several chances for 2 techs/turn. And a lot of cash, which allowed me to build the 20 piece SS in 3 turns and launch upon getting Fusion Power.
Those endgame freights were great! For the cost of Darwin's Voyage, you get 7 freights and a boat to put 'em in. They can bring in 3 or more free techs and 5000+ cash.
I think I may be done with this early landing stuff for now. I'm sure it's possible to get there a little sooner (with another delivered freight or two, I could have bought more SS components), but this is enough. For those who want to give it a try, here's a couple of general thoughts.
First thing, you're not building a civilization - you're building a research machine and a launch pad. You need to acquire about 70-75 techs (and build a space ship) in 120 or so turns to land on AC before 500AD. So, don't build anything that isn't focused directly on those two goals. After you launch, if you still have cash, supported units, or extraneous city improvements, you've probably overbuilt and cost yourself time.
The style I played was "OCC+". An OCC-type science city with a minimum of helper cities (7 or 8) and a conciliatory, tech-gifting approach to the AI. But whatever style you try (and others may work better), think of the task this way: you have to compress your entire game into a very small number of turns. If your baseline game takes 200 turns from start to launch, you'll need to cut it almost in half. Determine what your milestones are, when you usually achieve them, and then figure out how many turns you'll have in which to reach each one. When I started playing with this, I worked backwards from a target launch date to calculate when I had to be where.
It might be possible to launch in 1 AD on Deity on a random map, but it would be a real squeeze. Maybe with caravan-rehoming and a massive offshore freight run at the end. Maybe. Anyway, I came up 16 turns short.
congrats, well done
can you send me the 4000BC savegames for both the 396AD and this game, please
forgot to put in the email
(+1 )
Spam, Spam, Spammity Spam, Spammity Spammity Spam. Of course, you couldn't have edited that in.
Samson, was this with the infamous "Railroad Trick?"
"You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran
Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005
I bet solo is the one who will be able to have a try at beating you with reasonable chances of success (though other brilliant OCCers like Paul or Ribannah might perhaps achieve something if they feel like it).
I would be happy and honoured if you accepted to read my thread named 'Napoleon, Alexandre and their friends' and decided to play one scenario with us.
Your razor edge way of thinking about this game might be of great interest for us.
Up to you. This is a free world.
Anyway, CONGRATULATIONS
Thanks for the offer and the congrats. I have read your scenario threads with interest and may well play one next.
I used all the tricks of trade in this one:
opening - work the specials for 2 and 3 turn advances.
midgame - trade routes with road and rail.
endgame - overseas freights for high cash/research bonuses.
Thanks. If you, or someone else, can set up a link for others to download the save from this thread I'd appreciate it.
Nice going, samson! Aren't 2 discoveries a turn when you can get them a real rush! After studying your detailed log of the 396 game, I can see there isn't too much more time that can be saved. Of course I'm happy to see how those freights (and their payoffs) allowed you to cut off a few more years in this game! I used a similar timetable with my 14 BC game in OCC, working backwards from that date and establishing deadlines for certain things to be accomplished. This really focused me on squeezing the most out of each turn early in the game when there's a tendency to relax.
Looks like small map is the way to go, too. I'm in the middle of a game with a normal-sized random map. I started with a lot of free techs, including trade, which gave me an early edge, but my SSC is mediocre with only 3 trade specials (gold,wine,silk), and the AI are too far from it (20+ squares away) to make a railway connection. I have another city (1 gold, 2 whales) near the AI, that I built up to size 12 quickly with a harbor, which is only 5 squares away from an AI city, which I'm trying to connect to by rail, but doing this has slowed my research and I may not even make it to AC by 1000 AD! Right now I'm at 200 AD at about the same tech pace as my 776 game, but without much chance of its great late-game rehoming trade, so we'll wait and see what happens.
This game has no chance to challenge your record, but I have learned a few more new things from playing it so far that I will share when it is completed. Again, terrific result! I would like to try a game from your save, when it becomes available, but don't expect to do any better than you. The process leading to your result has been very enjoyable and enlightening.
Once again thanks for your gracious comments.
Yes, those offshore freights are great late game boosters. Even helper city freights (using the SSC specials) brought in good amounts of gold and beakers. Another thing about freights - the max bonus payout is 2/3 of the current advance's beaker cost. This is independent of map size, so freights work just as well, if not better, on medium maps for bringing in those "doubles". And more money, too.
Small map generating tips. "New game" generated small maps have very rough terrain, lots of specials (gold!) but little grass or plains. If you use "Customize World" and select 3 Billion Years, you get a bit more plains. 3 Billion Years plus Wet gives more grass.
Since you're interested in trying this one out, I'll forego posting a detailed log or giving away too many clues until you've had a chance to try it out. Hopefully, SG or someone will be along soon and offer to provide a link, or tell me how to do it.
I'm interested in seeing your current game log. Is this the one where you tried the 2 city trick and got early nomads?
Yes, many early nomads. A new experience for me! The most frequent hut result (especially from hills), as long as no other settlers were around. I deliberately used all new nomads to found new cities quickly, deferring new huts until no settlers were present. One game proves nothing, but in all previous ones I've always saved nomads as shieldless and foodless workers, and never got more than 1 or 2 a game.
If this is generally repeatable, the plusses are huge. Nomads are far better than advanced tribes and save the trouble of building expensive early settlers to found new cities.
The only drawback, is that city developments such as roads and irrigation must be deferred, but if good cities can be located having a lot of ocean, a quick harbor gives great early food and trade.
Thanks for your tips on small maps. I may try a few of my own that way. I sort of like the idea of landing before 1000 AD without making ANY changes to the standard settings and want to try and do that first, so feel free to post your detailed log, as I will promise not to consult it much later when I switch over to small map games. I'm sure others would like to see it though, and benefit from its comments and details. For me, being the record setter is not important. What I really enjoyed was the cooperative process that produced so many insights culminating in your 356 game. Kudos to all involved!
Well said. I, too, enjoyed the discoveries we made. But what do you think? Is a 1 AD launch date achievable? If not, what is the earliest possible Deity landing?
The nomad effect is repeatable, in testing and in actual games. And it is, I feel, an enormous edge. 3, 4, or 5 early cities, situated near trade specials, can pump out the early techs very quickly. 2 or 3 turns each for the first 5 or 6 techs can get you to Monarchy and then to Republic quite fast. And with Republic, the trade/science jumps up again. Saving a turn or two on those early techs is the same as getting 2 techs/turn in the endgame.
My testing shows the absence of a nomad to be the key to getting new ones. Owned settlers don't matter, I think. But even if they do, the benefits of early well-placed cities far outweigh those of land improvements in the first millennium.
I don't develop the helper cities at all, and in the SSC I'll only irrigate a square or two until I get Bridge Building and can start to road the river squares for extra trade.
You can only start building spaceship parts in 1 AD. So a 1 AD launch date is not achievable.Originally posted by samson
Is a 1 AD launch date achievable? If not, what is the earliest possible Deity landing?
But seriously, with some more refining of your playing style and some luck, I think you could come very close.
samson -- you can simply attach the save file to any post in this thread and we can dl from there - I asked markG to extend the original type list to include things like .sav files and he kindly complied ...
"Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
"One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit
In that case, theoretically ... with 10 cities and Apollo built before 1AD and enough cash and caravans on hand, one could build a 20 piece SS in two turns and launch in 40 AD for an arrival on AC in 76 AD. Or with a bit more cash and a couple of settlers used to found cities in 1AD, one could build a 15-3-3-1-1-1 ship and land in 55 AD. Hmmm.
So, if 1AD is the earliest you can build SS parts, how did you guys land a ship in 6AD in that MP game?
Thanks. I should have read the Help.
Samson, in MP you can change production during the other players' turns. So, as soon as the year 1 AD started for the first player, the spaceship builder could change his production to spaceship parts and have the ship built in 1 AD. This can of course not be done in SP.
Thank, Paul. I should have known that.
So, the earliest non-scenario landing date in SP, under any level of play, with the fastest ship would be 26AD.
The absence of nomads is probably the key in getting others, but I like getting them so much early in the game, I was taking no chances that city-built settlers would spoil this!
I finished that game where I was getting so many of them. Arriving in 956 AD, I had the dubious distinction of having almost tripled your latest landing date! Extra techs at that start did not make up for a relatively poor map, but I held my own until the higher cost of research on a medium map took its toll! Still this is my first pre-1000 AD landing without rehoming using all standard settings, so I am happy enough.
I started the game emulating your style of play, but then switched to some of my own ideas, after which I promptly fell behind! I will post a detailed log and description of the game here when it is ready, and would be curious how you would do with the same map and start, if you would care to give it a try.
I will try to set up an attachment here:
Looks like it worked. In answer to your question of a pre-1AD launch, it must be possible, I think, and the way to do it is to play normally until you have built Apollo. Then save your game as a scenario, and continue to completion, since parts will now be available. But you said enough of early landings! Why then, these questions about even earlier ones?
Last edited by solo; June 11, 2001 at 13:41.
956 AD is an excellent result on a medium map. How many huts did you pop? Getting lots of nomads probably cut down on the number of techs from huts, which was the factor on medium maps we considered to balance the small map's lower research cost. I probably won't have time to try your map soon, but I am very interested in seeing your log and will comment on it.
After my last game, I felt a bit of early landing burnout. But I'm starting to recover and may take another shot at it, if I get a good start. I was interested in the theoretically earliest landing date for a non-scenario game. I wanted to know how much more room for improvement there is.
samson, to answer your questions first:
1) In this game I got 4 techs from huts and traded with the AI for 8 others.
2) I think I popped about 21 huts in all, getting 5 nomad results during the game.
3) I welcome your comments and suggestions about the strategies used in this game.
Now on to the game:
Ive had trouble finding a good start for an early landing attempt, using all standard options. Whenever I got a start with 4 or more starting techs, with 2 or more Monarchy pre-requisites, I would try out the game. After some early exploration, most starts failed to produce a 4 trade special SSC site, and in several with promising SSC sites, early adverse luck ruined the chances of a good game. In one situation I had about everything on my wish list to start with except for that ******* pond in the middle of an ideal SSC site (2 gold, wheat, whale).
Finally, one start had enough promising things about it to continue the game. On the plus side, this game had:
1) 7 starting techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Trade.
2) An adequate, nearby SSC site with 3 trade specials and some rivers.
3) Early contact and an alliance with the purple (key) civilization.
4) Fortunate early hut results, including several nomads and one advanced tribe. In 2 previous games with similar starting prospects, I was plagued by barbarians and unwanted techs from the earliest huts.
5) Two excellent city sites were found away from the core group of cities, plus a third very good one.
On the minus side:
1) There was not any chance for a railroad from the SSC to the nearest AI city, and thus no chance for its added continuing trade bonus.
2) Outside of the SSC, there were a lack of trade specials available for the helper cities. The only site that had 2 good ones of its own was beset by poor terrain which hampered growth.
3) Except for the key civ, the AI were hard to locate and get to. This made tribute hard to get and really hampered trade. Only 25 cargos were delivered during the game and payoffs were disappointing, yielding a low average of 66 gold (and beakers) per turn during trade years, as compared to a 200 average in my 1056 game and a 400 average in the 776 rehoming game.
4) The higher cost of research on a medium map is too much of a handicap, when compared to small maps, and research speed is the name of the game for early landings. The benefits of a medium map are not enough compensation.
5) The lack of barbarian leader opportunities (zero) made a difficult gold situation even worse, especially early in the game where a timely infusion of 150 gold can make a huge difference.
The game log and comments follow in the next thread.
Civ 2.42, deity, 7 civs, raging, medium map and all other settings were standard. I played as the Americans starting with 7 free techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, and Trade. The arrival date on Alpha Centauri was 956 AD.
Abbreviations used in the log:
W - Washington
NY - New York
P - Philadelphia
BOS - Boston
C - Chicago
SF - San Francisco
BUF - Buffalo
SL - Saint Louis
S - Sioux
G - Germans
R - Russians
E - Egyptians
C - Carthaginians
B - Babylonians
Numbers in parentheses after techs and key civ trades are:
b - beakers needed for the next advance
s - current beaker output by all cities
w - current beaker output by Washington (usually omitted)
% - current science rate setting
BC years
3950 hut: horseman
3900 hut: horseman
3850 Washington, New York, hut(hill): nomads
Washington was my SSC site and was located on rivered grass. It also had 1 gold, 1 wine, 1 silk, 1 game, 1 grass, 5 rivered grass, 4 plains, 1 rivered plain, 1 ocean, 3 hills, and 1 forest. The rivers made up for a lacking 4th trade special. This game I located and founded my SSC very early and put more emphasis on its early growth and this really paid off.
New York was located on grass and had 1 whale, 1 fish, 8 ocean, 4 plains, 1 swamp, 1 grass and 2 hills. It grew well but did not have good trade specials.
3700 Boston, hut(hill): nomads
Boston was located on rivered grass and overlapped Washingtons silk. It also had 3 rivered grass, 1 grass, 1 rivered plain, 2 plains, 2 ocean, 1 coal, 1 swamp, and 1 hill. Rivers helped, but the only trade special was shared with Washington.
Nothing could have been better than getting 2 nomads right after founding Washington and New York. I always seem to get great beginners luck when trying something new. Founding cities quickly with NON-settlers pays off in making more available. The best city sites may not be quickly found, but any free city so early in the game is a great boost.
3650 Monarchy (22b, 11s, 70%), revolution, government to Monarchy
3600 Philadelphia; NY: warrior; hut: advanced tribe, Atlanta
Philadelphia was located on grass and had 9 grass, 4 forest, 5 ocean, 1 swamp and 1 hill. It grew well but did not have any specials.
Atlanta was in a horrible location, but produced a free settler later when it was disbanded.
No doubt about it, this was a great start, with 4 good cities and Monarchy by 3650, but a start like this is almost required for an early landing. Many other previous starts went poorly and had to be discarded despite very promising setups.
3550 Map Making (33b, 11s, 70%)
3500 BOS: warrior
3450 Writing (48b, 10s, 70%)
I set Washington for maximum growth. (the reason for 10s)
3350 W: size 2
3300 NY: size 2
3200 BOS: size 2; Sioux: trade for mysticism, give tech, share maps, alliance (55b)
Another lucky break, as I meet and get and alliance with the purple civ, and can cut beaker costs immediately. While trading, I noticed they also had Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, and The Wheel, but decided to defer trading for these until they were needed. This facilitates early research, but a big drawback is that I could not ask for any gifts for fear of being presented with Warrior Code. During the early part of this game I was really desperate for more gold. All potential sources of income dried up, as I did not have any chances for barbarian leaders, either. Still, all things considered, it was still a terrific start.
3150 P: diplomat
3100 Literacy (66b, 13s, 70%); NY: trireme; P: size 2
3050 hut(jungle): nomads
Of course, the first thing found on a neighboring continent was another hut with nomads! Normally, I explore with two triremes as early as possible, but my home continent was huge and already being investigated by land, so I only built one trireme early on.
3000 W: temple; hut: barbarians
2950 Atlanta: settlers (disbands city)
2900 BOS: temple; hut: 50g
Gold was so scarce and welcome that 50 felt more like 500!
2850 P: diplomat; Republic (84b, 20s, 70%), revolution, government to Republic; S: give tech, maps;
Russians: peace, give tech, share maps
The Russians wanted to trade Polytheism. No thanks!
samson is a real fan of Republic as early as possible, with great results to show for this policy, so I adopted it. Normally, I like to stay in Monarchy until my cities are all size 3 and ready to celebrate. Republic is ill-suited for small cities, and you can say goodbye to demanding tribute, normally a good source of gold early in the game. I was extremely strapped for gold during early Republic, and had to set taxes at 10% just to keep out of debt. Even though early Republic speeds up research considerably, it slows down growth and production, and in retrospect, I believe I would have been better off waiting a bit to switch to Republic.
2800 Chicago
Chicago was located on plains and shared a gold special with Washington. It also had 1 wine, 1 silk, 1 grass, 2 ocean, 5 plains, 2 mountains, 2 hills, 1 forest and 3 tundra. Great trade specials, but a lousy site for growth. It reached size 3, but remained there the rest of the game. There was not enough time nor resources to spare to promote its further growth, which was too bad. All it did was make caravans at a mighty pace of 3 shields per turn and act as a magnet for the eternal barbarian archer, who appeared later on.
2750 Germans: peace, give tech, share maps
2700 San Francisco
San Francisco became a great city and was located on a forest (irrigated to plains before founding) and it had 2 whales, 1 gold, 4 grass, 1 desert, 2 forests, 7 ocean, 2 hills and 1 swamp. It was also located on an isthmus and provided a shortcut for ships to get to the Russian and Egyptian cities. Being only 6 squares away from a Russian city, I decided to attempt a railroad connection and develop SF into a Super Trade City of sorts. It turns out there was not enough time to make this idea pay off. The Russians surrounded and trapped my road and railroad workers, and too many resources were wasted in bribes and other efforts at developing this citys great potential. By the time the railroad was ready, the game was almost over, and all freights were needed for Apollo and my spaceship. After the game was over, I went back to a previous save just to try out this magnificent railroad and it didnt work, no matter where I put additional railroads! All that effort must have added at least 5 more turns to the length of the game, instead of helping to shorten it.
2650 Philosophy, Math (108b, 26s, 70%); hut: 50g
2600 hut: archer
2550 NY: temple; W: silk; hut: barbarians; C: warrior
2500 hut(hill): nomads
2450 University (120b, 30s, 70%); hut: elephant;
2400 R: give tech, share maps
2350 hut: Construction (132b, 36s, 70%)
2300 hut: 100g; hut: barbarians
2250 BOS: dye; W: wool; Banking (180b, 24s, 70%)
2200 C: temple
2150 SF: temple, silk(d) to Little Bighorn, 180g
Being extremely starved for gold, that 180 was really welcomed, but quickly spent.
2100 P: temple; Medicine (195b, 29s, 70%)
2050 hut: Pottery (210b)
2000 BOS: hides; hut: Seafaring (255b)
Pottery and possibly Seafaring, were probably known already by one or more AI, and could have been traded for. A good reason not to defer tech trades is to prevent unwanted techs from huts, but now that I had Pottery, it got me thinking how crummy my little cities were doing under Republic, and how most were size 3 and ready to grow. Washington was just about to finish its third caravan, and getting ready to make a library. I was about to learn Astronomy and had accumulated 3 caravans towards Copernicus already, faithfully following samsons early science formula, and then I get Pottery from a hut! Hmmm.
I reasoned thus: Currently, Washington was putting out 14 science. A library would boost this to 21 and Copernicus would double this to 42, which with the other cities would yield a total of about 60 science when Copernicus was ready. I figured that if I abandoned the pure science approach and quickly doubled the size of each city, my science would have been just as much and Id also have bigger cities all around to boot. Since 4 caravans were all that were needed for Hanging Gardens, and they were handy, I went for early growth and decided to defer science improvements and wonders in Washington. I also needed settlers, and I thought that celebrating cities one size too high might be a good idea too, so that when the settlers were built, each city could back down 1 citizen to the right level for happiness. All and all, in seemed like a good plan, but in retrospect I believe I failed to account for the fact that a library and Copernicus HAD to be built sooner or later, while HG was just an optional wonder and that time was too limited to do both. The big trade payoffs I was expecting from bigger cities never became a factor later in this game, partly do to the lack of trade specials outside of my SSC. It would be an interesting experiment to go back and replay the game from this point, concentrating just on science, and compare outcomes. I might end up trying this at some time.
1950 W: hides
At this time a barbarian archer invaded near Chicago and I killed it with my horseman. To no avail, because every 5 turns or so he was reincarnated and came back to the same spot next to my horseman, just to be trampled to death, over and over. No leaders ever came along with this eternal archer, but no leadership ability was needed to think up or organize these senseless repeated missions. I will not note each repetition of this silly charade.
1900 W: Hanging Gardens, we love begins
Carthaginians: peace, give tech, share maps
1850 W: size 5
1800 NY: salt; hut: 50g; W: size 6; BOS,P,NY: size 4
1750 Astronomy (272b, 23s, 30%); W: size 7; BOS,NY: size 5; Buffalo
Buffalo was one of those fine island cities located on a plain with 1 whale, 1 fish, 1 wine, 1 pheasant, 7 ocean, 1 swamp, 2 plains, 1 grass, 2 mountains, 2 hills and 1 forest. It grew very quickly and had three trade specials and was well located in the center of the map. Being an island, every trade it made had to be overseas, guaranteeing that bonus.
1700 W: size 8; B,NY: size 6; we love ends
S: give tech, share maps (240b)
My cities were now producing 55 science at 70%, about the same as a library and Copernicus would have contributed by now.
1550 hut: Theory of Gravity (270b)
R: trade for The Wheel, give tech, share maps
1500 BOS: settlers
1450 C: hides; Engineering (285b, 52s, 70%)
1400 SF: we love; P: settlers
1350 W: library; SF: size 4
1250 Sanitation (480b);
R: trade for Polytheism, share maps
C: trade for Iron Working, Warrior Code, share maps
S: trade for Horseback Riding, give tech, maps, 200g gift (576b)
Now that the 20th tech had been researched, I trade for all available techs so that I can finally start asking the Sioux for gifts. I was still very strapped for gold, and had not been able to set taxes to zero as I usually do to favor science. This is where a medium map starts to really take its toll. That was a 200 beaker jump between techs, and the rest now come at a premium, making it hard to justify this map size.
1200 BUF: temple; SF: copper, we love; P: we love;
hut: elephant; salt(d) to Carthage, 352g
1150 NY: settlers
1100 BUF: hides; P: size 4; SF: size 6; S: 50g gift
1050 C: silk; P: dye, we love; NY: harbor, we love; W: wool; SF: size 7
1000 BOS: gems; Chemistry (600b, 72s, 70%);
Egyptians: peace, give tech, share maps;
S: trade for Invention
875 W: coal; Babylonians: peace, give tech, share maps
The awkward starting placement means I was late getting to meet all the AI. The Babylonians were the last to be found and it took a long time into the game to do it. A small map also has the advantage of earlier contact with all the AI.
850 SF: settlers; hides(d) to Babylon, 72g
This trade was not worth the effort. It is better keeping caravans at home to build wonders where they are worth the equivalent of 200 gold. In my opinion, any trade made for less than 200 gold is not worth the effort. None of the AI amounted to much during this game, and none of their cities became good targets for trade because of this. Most payoffs during the game were quite disappointing.
825 Bridge Building (648b, 77s, 70%)
775 hut: nomads; hut: 25g; S: 50g gift
750 C: coal
725 BUF: silk; P: hides; BOS: gold; NY: silk; W: silver
700 hut: elephant; hut: legion; R: give tech, maps
675 S: join them vs. the Germans; St. Louis
St. Louis was my eighth and last city and was located on grass and had 1 whale, 1 fish, 1 furs, 2 grass, 7 ocean, 3 forests, and 2 plains. Another fast grower with decent trade potential. St. Louis and Buffalo, both located closer to most of the AI than my other cities, were well placed for two reasons:
1) Ships could carry cargos for trade no matter which way they traveled, which was more efficient.
2) When it came time to switch to Democracy, triremes stopped at both places to be upgraded to galleons, making Leonardos unnecessary.
650 SF: beads; Monotheism (672b, 98s, 80%)
Now that I was committed to fast city growth and the development of San Francisco as a SRC (Super Railroad City), I wanted Michaelangelos.
625 R: give tech, maps; S: give tech, 50g; hut: barbarians
copper(d) to Malaca, 168g
600 SL: temple
575 C: wool; W: food; hut: 50g
550 W: Michaelangelos Chapel
500 W: aqueduct, size 9; BUF,P: size 5; BOS,NY: size 6; SF: size 7
475 W: size 10; BUF,P: size 6; BOS,NY: size 7; SF: size 8
450 Gunpowder (696b, 66s, 40%); BUF: beads, size 7; SF: aqueduct, size 9; BOS: coal; NY: silk, size 8;
W: size 11; P: size 7
425 P: dye; W: size 12; NY: size 8; SF: size 10;
silk(d) to Babylon, 198g
400 SF: colosseum; W: marketplace; S: give tech (696b); R: give tech, maps
375 W: Copernicuss Observatory, (696b, 200s, 126w, 80%)
350 Explosives (720b, 200s, 80%)
325 C: coal
275 BOS: gems; Economics (806b, 197s, 80%); S: give tech (744b)
250 P: dye; W: gold
225 BUF: copper; SF: salt; NY: beads
200 W: Colossus, (744b, 245s, 168w, 80%)
175 Navigation (832b, 247s, 80%)
150 R: give tech, maps; S: give tech, 50g (768b)
125 SL: dye
100 BOS: gems
75 SF: food; Physics (792b, 249s, 80%)
50 C: coal; P: dye; W: gold; beads(d) to Panoramus, 236g
Now that I had a group of caravans to deliver, the Navigation-Invention pair cuts the amount of the payoffs. The unsuitability of this map for profitable trade was a big factor in slowing things down in this game.
25 Atomic Theory (844b, 257s, 80%); S: give tech, 50g (816b)
copper(d) to Babylon, 148g
By the end of the BC years, I have acquired 40 techs, which is not too bad, since Washington still lacks a university, something Ive was meaning to build 20 turns ago, but had to put off until now.
AD years continuje in the next thread
AD years
1 SF: library; W: university; silver(d) to Babylon, 544g
20 Magnetism (840b, 357s, 80%); BUF: coal; NY: gems
40 SF: marketplace; W: sewer system
60 SL: beads; SF: we love; BOS: gold;
W: Shakespeares Theater; Metallurgy (864b, 228s, 50%)
80 W: size 13; SF: size 11; SL: size 5
100 P: dye; SL: galleon; BUF: galleon; W: size 14
120 SF: engineers; C: coal; W: size 15
140 Democracy (888b, 374s, 70%), revolution, government to Democracy; W: size 16; S: 100g
160 W: coal, size 17
180 NY: silver; W: size 18
200 BOS: coal; Electricity (912b, 378s, 70%); beads(d) to Babylon, 228g
220 W: gold; W: size 20
240 P: wool; Steam Engine (1014b, 463s, 80%); W: size 21
S: give tech, 50g (936b)
260 SL: food; BUF: food; W: bank, size 22, we love ends
280 C: food; W: Sir Isaac Newtons College; SF: musketeer;
Railroad (960b, 751s, 582w, 100%); E: give tech, share maps
Now the SSC was full-sized and all scientific improvements were in place. With the discovery of Railroad, the project of connecting San Francisco to St. Petersburg continues.
300 NY: engineers; coal(d) to Thebes, 174g
320 SF: courthouse; Feudalism (1066b, 382s, 50%); BOS: coal; S: give tech (984b); C&R: give tech, share maps
340 Industrialization (1092b, 703s, 90%); S: give tech, 50g (1008b)
360 SF: university; W: coal; salt(d) to Memphis, 115g
380 Corporation (1032b, 502s, 60%); BUF: food; P: dye
400 Refining (1144b, 744s, 90%); S: give tech (1056b)
420 SL: gems; bead(d) to Thebes, 128g; R: give tech, maps
440 C: coal; Steel (1170b, 636s, 70%); W: dye
460 BOS: gold; Combustion (1196b, 747b, 90%)
480 SF: gold; NY: silver
500 C: give tech, share maps; W: gold; Automobile (1222b, 783s, 90%); dye(d) to Moscow, 428g
520 SF: superhighways; Electronics (1296b, 778s, 90%); S: give tech, 150g (1152b); R: give tech, share maps;
dye(d) to Memphis, 147g
540 BUF: coal; P: hides; W: superhighways; Chivalry (1176b, 1302s, 1044w, 100%)
Now with superhighways in Washington, 1-turn advances by science alone were available for a few turns. San Francisco was producing 136 beakers as the next best city. I had a chance for 2 advances in one turn, but this would have used a lot of freights at once, which were better used to guarantee 1-turn advances once beakers exceeded science.
560 Leadership (1300b, 1302s, 100%); S: give tech (1200b)
580 SL: salt; BO: spice; Mass Production (1326b, 1336s, 100%)
All of Washingtons non-trade workers converted to Einsteins gave peak beakers for the final 1-turn advance using city science alone.
600 C: wool; Nuclear Fission (1352b, 1233s, 100%); R&C: give tech, share maps; S: trade for Conscription, give tech (1378b);
gems(d) to Cedar Creek, 162g
620 E: give tech, share maps; NY: cloth; W: oil; Nuclear Power (1404b, 1189s, 90%); silver(d) to Leptis Parva, 215g
640 Laser (14309b, 994s, 80%); coal(d) to Babylon, 953g; coal(d) to Babylon, 274g
Babylon wanted coal! Good, because no one else did.
660 W: stock exchange; Tactics (1512b, 1115s, 90%); S: give tech (1344b); C: embassy;
gold(d) to Wounded Knee, 722g
The Carthaginians started building Darwins, so I gave them an embassy to monitor what they were doing.
680 SL: food; SF: food; C: spice; P: oil; BOS: silk; NY: food, Flight (1368b, 605s, 60%)
700 BUF: oil; Machine Tools (1508b, 911s, 90%); S: give tech (1392b); R&C: give tech, share maps
720 W: dye; dye(d) to Ur, 216g
740 Radio (1534b, 807s, 80%); C: give tech
Carthage was about to build Darwins so I gave it the pre-requisites for Advanced Flight and Miniaturization, two techs I still needed. I had picked Miniaturization to study myself, since the AI love Advanced Flight so much, and this idea worked. The following turn Carthage learned Advanced Flight and Amphibious Warfare! Not bad, considering that they were still under Despotism!
760 SF: food; C: food; P: hides; NY: food; Miniaturization (1586b, 923s, 90%); C: trade for Advanced Flight;
S: give tech (1464b), oil(d) to SF, 545g
All things considered, this was a successful turn!
780 W: food; Computers (1488b, 1004s, 100%); dye(d) to Moscow, 492g
800 SL: food; BUF: spice; SF: gems; C: food; P: hides; BOS: dye; NY: food; Rocketry (1638b, 935s, 100%);
gold(d) to Heliopolis, 220g; coal(d) to Kiev, 144g; S: give tech, 100g (1512b)
820 W: research lab; Space Flight (1536b, 788s, 70%)
840 SL: food; BUF: food; SF: food; C: coal; P: hides; BOS: spice; NY: dye; W: Apollo Program
860 SL: S#1; BUF: S#2; SF: S#3; W: S#4; Plastics (1716b, 1284s, 100%); S: give tech (1584b);
silk(d) to Babylon, 304g
880 SL: S#5; BUF: S#6; SF: S#7; C: wool; P: wool; BOS: dye; NY: food; W: s#8; Superconductor (1742b, 811s, 60%);
S: give tech, 100g (1608b)
920 R: sneak attack!; SL: C#1; BUF: C#2; SF: M#2; BOS: S#15; W: M#3, Fusion Power; Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1
922 Russians capture San Francisco!
I did not even get to try out my railroad while waiting for the space ship to arrive! Unused, virgin tracks left for those Russian peasants to roll their hay wagons along!
956 Arrival on Alpha Centauri.
I will add another thread later with some conclusions Ive come to after playing this game.
An impressive log and commentary, Solo.
This is just a quick note to let you know I'm digesting it off-line and will respond later.
Okay, I've read over your log and do have a some comments for you.
Take them with as many grains of salt as you like.
Map size.
I don't think this game proves that a medium map can not be competitive with a small map in the race for early landing. The minimum multiplier for the cost of researching the "20+" techs is 19X on small and 24X on medium (about 25% higher). This means you pay 100 more beakers for tech#20, 200 more beakers for tech#40, 300 more beakers for tech#60 and about 10,000 more beakers total for techs 20-70. In theory, this would handicap the medium map by about 20 game turns (400 years) in a space race.
However, in both my pre-400AD games with railroaded trade routes to a foreign city, I was getting 1 turn advances with a science rate of 60-70%. At 80-90% science, those games could easily have paid the medium map cost and still have achieved a 1 tech/turn rate. While it may be less likely to make a rail connection with a foreign civ on a medium map, it's certainly not impossible. I did it in that Deity+5 OCC game I posted recently.
Finding good starts.
In my opinion, you're too strict with your "all standard options" approach. From what I've been able to gather about the way the game generates maps, "New Game" and "Customize World" both create maps from the same universe; the same set of possibilities. When "New Game" is selected, I believe the program chooses (probably using a weighted scale) values for the same 5 parameters that "Customize World" offers and then generates a map from them using the same routine.
Since we are selecting only those starts to play which meet certain criteria for a fast start and possible early landing, using "Customize World" to generate a playable game from a smaller subset of all possible maps, saves a lot of time. If a good early landing start occurs only once out of a 1000 starts, "CW" may be able to weed out 800 out of the unsuitable starts and save you some time and frustration. Just a suggestion.
The start.
7 starting techs is a big plus. Having 4 critical techs beyond the 3 Monarchy pre-reqs is probably worth about 12 game turns, maybe more. In combination with a good nearby SSC site, this start definitely qualifies as "great". Add in some early nomads and you were really rolling straight out of the gate.
3 trade specials isn't bad for an SSC. Gold, wine, and rivered silk provide 14 arrows. In my last two games, I had 2 gold and a silk to start (15 arrows) and was able to get a 4th special only later in the game by mining grass or plains. I'm definitely considering trying a game using this start.
Science vs. Growth
Early Republic is tough to expand in, as you found. You pretty much have to build a temple first thing, unless the city has gold and can grow to size 2 while keeping peace with the 20% lux rate the SSC neeeds. My early game focus is not growth or expansion, it's research. The idea is that every turn you save on researching the first 20 techs, is the same as getting 2 techs per turn in the end game. Or put another way, every lost chance to save a turn must be made up at the end when options have narrowed as time runs out.
I think your "growth" approach for the helper cities cost you opportunities in this game. It led to your choice of HG and MIKE's as your first wonders. The flaw in your reasoning (in my opinion anyway) in picking HG over COPERNICUS early is this: Every future trade arrow/beaker in the SSC gets multiplied by 4X and later 6X by library/Copes/university and then the INU. Every trade arrow in a helper city is just 1 beaker, now and forever. Though it seemed like you were getting equal value in terms of trade/science, they are not equivalent when measured over the course of the game.
I prefer helper cities in locations where they WON'T grow beyond size 3. A rivered grass square with access to a Silk and 2 other forest squares is great. 7 shields, 5 arrows, and a stable pop, building caravans for the rest of the game. Helpers working Gold is good, too, early. But less important mid-game and later. Buffalo, peat, iron -- high shield specials that don't required mining are good. I think expansion (number of cities) is probably more important than growth. It takes less infrastructure and pulls less attention away from the SSC's development. The big lesson for me in my attempt to use the STC idea was just how difficult it is to develop even 2 big cities in the time frame of an early landing game.
Growth vs. Expansion vs. Science is a crucial trade-off in these games. I probably stop expanding too soon. So, any attempt to push in another direction is laudable, and the lessons learned of value.
As usual, your game had a strong ending. Even if 25 delivered freights sounds small to you, it's probably 3 times what I got in my 356 game, and that was the most trading I ever did.
Getting railroad routes with a foreign city -- an idea.
Thinking about your "reincarnating archer", it occurs to me that one could build a bait city near the SSC, connect it by rail, and leave it undefended. Then wait for some Barbarian pirates to land and occupy it. After that, run in 3 freights and BOOM! the Memphis Effect is on. This could also work with a nearby AI civ that you goad into attacking you, too. Then quickly pacify them with a load of techs. Of course, while the city is just sitting there it can be knocking out caravans for you.
Might have more comments later. Again, good game and a wonderful log.
And don't take my criticisms as a slur on your play or style. It isn't meant that way at all.
Another thing. You mentioned having problems getting gifts from allies who have techs you don't want.
What seems to work for me is asking for gifts on the turn I discovery a new tech. This causes them to offer a trade. Then when I refuse to trade and ask them for a gift, I get money instead of WC or whatever I don't want. Of course, this only works if they have enough money to give, so an embassy is needed to check their cash before asking.
A slur on my style? No way! This is great stuff, and I will print it out and use your insights to make improvements to my game! I cab only appreciate the time, effort and thought that went into your analysis of the game. Thanks!
After studying this, I will reply, commenting on each thing you mentioned. After a brief read, I do disagree with a few of your points, though for the most part I am saying "yes, that's right!"
I have had time to think over your comments and will respond to your ideas now.
When I first got the idea of trying pre-1000 AD landings, I felt that the major key to success was finding a way to obtain 1-turn advances after superhighways and sustaining this pace for the rest of the game. Earlier experience with OCC told me that one city could not provide enough science to do this unless the starting location were ideal, or very close to it. So I came up with the helper city approach with the thought that additional helper science would make up the difference, while their caravan output would provide additional opportunities for 2 advances per turn. This approach has been successful, but was rendered obsolete by your method of using the trade bonus from a railroad to the SSC, which is much more time-efficient.
In my 956 game, I only abandoned your early science approach, because I believed it required the SSC-railroad to achieve enough science, and that this possibility did not exist. I felt early expansion was my next best alternative, and was curious about how quickly I could develop the potential of my STC, San Francisco. I was also curious about the added benefits of founding my SSC first. Your idea of a bait city simply did not occur to me, which is a great idea. You are always finding the better mousetrap!
Map size: I will have to try a game or two on a small map before making up my mind, although I now believe small is better. I would also like to replay my 956 game at the point where I decided on HG, going for Copernicus instead, just to see how this works out on a medium map, and to gain some experience doing it this way.
Good starts: Even with Customize World, I doubt that SSC sites as good as the ones you were finding on small maps are easily obtainable on medium ones. I like to complain, and was just a little envious of these great sites you were getting. When analyzed, though, the SSC site I had in this game was even better. (Throw in the 4 additional free techs at the start, and I believe you wont be able to resist giving it a try yourself!) Consider its peak science output:
gold - 126 beakers
silk, wine - 102 each
ocean, plains, grass - 48 each
7 rivered plains/grass - 72 each
The rivers added 24 beakers each, for a total of 168 additional beakers, which is better than having another gold special minus any rivers! (Does this change your mind a bit about the value of rivers?) So I agree its a great SSC site, but what I disliked most was the poor map location (being off to one side) and the lack of trade specials for helper cities. I can not agree more that every turn in the game is precious, and sometimes the presence of one or two more trade specials among helpers can add just enough arrows to get those early game advances a turn sooner.
Ive got to agree with most of your analysis, though. I think you under-estimate the value of vigorous trade, and hope to have an opportunity to prove this in a future game! Until then, I cant argue with your results, and the innovations and skill responsible for them!
Using your bait idea, I did a little checking into the effectiveness of a railroad from my SSC to Chicago (now barbarian). Before the railroad, continuing bonuses were 21 each, afterwards 32. This would have added 33 trade to my total, for an additional 98 beakers. This means at the time right after superhighways, I would have had 1170 beakers at 100% science, instead of the 972 as in the actual game. At 100% science this was barely enough to sustain one or two more turns of 1-turn advances. This tells me that the SSC site has to be much better (or more developed) than mine was in this game for the Memphis effect to be as successful on a medium map.
Another way of putting it is that to learn my 55th tech, (the one following automobile) I needed 1152 beakers, even with that 7 free tech head start. In your 396 game, (where I believe you started with 3 free techs), you needed only 988 beakers, with 1428 science to work with, quite a bit more than I might have had with the railroad bonus.
More evidence that a small map is the best way to go, and that even there, an average SSC site may not be enough to do the job. What do you think?
Last edited by solo; June 15, 2001 at 23:36.
Railroad tycoons:
samson and solo
It may be urban myth, but I have the impression that trade with an AI civ is better than that with Barbarians - doubtless one of you will soon prove this one way or another ...
Meanwhile - LaFayette you have it right - Railroad Tycoons - we bow before you ...
"Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
"One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit
Mostly myth.
Barbarian cities suffer from heavy corruption (90%+), so the amount they contribute to the trade bonus calculation is nearly zero. But in this case, the trade bonus is based mainly on the SSC's trade anway - so trade with a Barbarian city should be nearly as good as with the AI.
As a check of theory, I loaded my "memphis" game, disarmed Memphis and created a barbarian army at her gates. My pre-barbarian trade routes with Memphis were +40 each. After Memphis became barbarian, the routes were +37 each. That seems like a significant drop, but it's not. With the road/rail/superhighway bonuses in play, the difference between 37 and 40 is one quantum of trade. The drop was caused by the loss of 3 arrows in Memphis due to corruption. By adding one citizen to my SSC and working another roaded plains square for 4 arrows, I was able to restore the bonus to +40.
Thus, the "bait" city concept could be quite effective, even with Barbarians.
By my calculations your SSC should result in the following maximum trade with Superhighways (S), Democracy (D), and Colossus (C) all in effect:
Gold with road: 6 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 4 (S) + 1 (R?) = 13
Wine with road: 4 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 3 (S) + 1 (R?) = 10
Rivered Silk with road: 4 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 3 (S) + 1 (R?) = 10
Rivers with road: 2 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 2 (S) = 6 x 7 = 42
Grass/plains w/road: 1 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) + 1 (S) = 4 x 5 = 20
Ocean: 2 + 1 (D) + 1 (C) = 4
(The extra arrow from Gold, Wine, etc. (R?) when roaded under Superhighways may be a rounding effect, not sure.)
total = 99 raw trade
Base trade routes = (99 + Chicago + 4)/8
If Chicago contributes only 1 arrow, you would have 104/8 = 13 as your base trade route. 13 x 2.5 (road/rail/SH bonuses) = 32.
Which is exactly what you saw. But Chicago likely has a bit more than 1 arrow (and less than 9), so if you irrigated the forest square to plains and roaded it, adding 4 more arrows, you might get the base route up to 14. Then 14 x 2.5 = 35 arrows for each route. With 2 more squares converted to plains and roaded you add 8 more arrows and get to +37 for your routes.
With those adjustments your SSC would have 99 + 12 + 37x3 = 222 trade arrows. At 100% science and with the 6X multiplier of library/university/Cope's/INU you'd get 1332 beakers from your SSC alone. 1332/24 = 55 acquired techs (62 total techs with your 7 starting techs.) That's almost to Space Flight if you take the shortest tech path and avoid a few junk techs along the way. Flight/Computers should be a wash -- a research lab will replace in science what you lose in trade when Colossus expires. With the extra trade/science from your helper cities and timely caravan deliveries you should be able to sustain 1 turn advances from Automobile to SF and beyond.
With a 4th trade special, a few more rivers and/or grass/plains squares, an SSC on a medium map could do even better, allowing a few 2 tech/turns in the end game.
Yes, rivers are good - 6 arrows at their peak. But they need Bridge Building and time to develop their potential. Gold is quicker at the start.
I agree that "vigorous trade" is something I need to press for at the endgame. And I think a bit more early expansion at the beginning would help, too. I'm waiting for another good start and will give this thing another try.