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Don't believe in Greece. Just before parliamentary election I spoke with a high official the Greek ministry of economy, a well-trained (in the US) economy professor with good international publishing record. He was telling astonishing stories. The well known one is that yes, the Germens were lending money to Greece, but they benefited from this by selling their commodities to Greece. He has not reflected why Greece has not increased its competitiveness by these external loans, though.
OK, this was trivial. What he said in addition was striking: according to the EU solidarity its member states should be prevented from introducing internal reforms which would increase their international competitiveness, however at the expense of their citizens. Once again, the Germans are to be blamed: they cut social spending and increase productivity, thus pushing Greece and other countries at the margins of the European economy. Such reform should be EU-wise coordinated and banned if introduced unilaterally!
Then he considered agriculture (the lowest-productive sector!) as the main chance of Greek economic revival, and also argued that this sector can be developed through domestic innovativeness which would base on well-educated Greek labour force! And we all know that the Greek educational system is one of the poorest in Europe, not mentioning that Greek agriculture is light-years away from the Danish or Dutch agri-sector.
Finally, he sought some inspirations for Greek restructuring in the experiences of the Central and Eastern European countries which no doubt noted success after 1990. He forgot that we have had deep social and institutional reserves, unleashed after the systemic change, and that the current Greek reserves of this kind are non-existent, is not deeply negative.
If the Greek elites have such beliefs, why are we surprised by the positions of the Greek general population?
The country seems to have no chances – getting out from the Euro zone and paying the necessary costs internally seems to be only option for them, and for the rest of the EU.
"If the Greek elites have such beliefs"
They are all incompetent from top to bottom!
Most Greeks don't want to exit euro! This is completely unbelievable to me. I am shaking my head. Greeks have no idea what they are in! When so called academic a****ole says that, you can guess what others think. The country has only one thing to do! Read my previous post: "Open letter to Germany".
Here goes another true story about Greece's realities TODAY (not the one 'clever Greeks' are trying to make the word believe in).
No economy in the world is efficient, but some have a more relaxed approach than others, especially when the public expense is far greater than the taxes collected – when they decide to collect at all.
A Herculean Disaster – the endemic economic problems the population of Greece have inflicted on their own economy are as common to the Greek's, as ouzo and olives.
The public perks are not confined to their non-paying commuters on their public transport, but incredibly, the average salary on Greece's railways is £60,000, which includes cleaners and track workers. This equates to treble the earnings of the average private sector employee in Greece. In fact their whole public sector is overpay and under utilised. Ridiculously, 600 professions allowed to retire at 50 (with a state pension of 95 per cent of their last working year's earnings) — on account of the 'arduous and perilous' nature of their work.
The over ground rail network is as big a racket as the EU-funded underground. While its annual income is only £80 million from ticket sales, the wage bill is more than £500m a year — prompting one Greek politician to famously remark that it would be cheaper to put all the commuters into private taxis. 'We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,' says Stefans Manos, a former Greek finance minister. 'And yet, there isn't a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.'
Money flows into all areas of public life. As a result, for example, the Greek school system is now an over-staffed shambles, employing four times more teachers per pupil than Finland, the country with the highest-rated education system in Europe. 'But we still have to pay for tutors for our two children,' says Helena, an Athens mother. 'The teachers are hopeless — they seem to spend their time off sick.'
Take a short trip on the metro to the city's cooler northern suburbs, and you will find an enclave of staggering opulence, in the suburb of Kifissia. Amid clean, tree-lined streets full of designer boutiques and car showrooms selling luxury marques such as Porsche and Ferrari, live some of the richest men and women in the world. This suburb is home to shipping tycoons such as Spiros Latsis, a billionaire and friend of Prince Charles, as well as countless other wealthy industrialists and politicians.
One of the reasons they are so rich is that rather than paying millions in tax to the Greek state, as they rightfully should, many of these residents are living entirely tax-free. Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia.
Yet studies have shown that more than 60,000 Greek homes each have investments worth more than £1m, let alone unknown quantities in overseas banks, prompting one economist to describe Greece as a 'poor country full of rich people'. Should the taxman rumble and investigate, it can be dealt with using a 'fakelaki' — an envelope stuffed with cash. There is even a semi-official rate for bribes.
Officially, just over 300 Kifissia residents admitted to having a pool. The true figure is believed to be 20,000. There is even a boom in sales of tarpaulins to cover pools and make them invisible to the aerial tax inspectors. 'The most popular and effective measure used by owners is to camouflage their pool with a khaki military mesh to make it look like natural undergrowth,' says Vasilis Logothetis, director of a major swimming pool construction company. 'That way, neither helicopters nor Google Earth can spot them.' But faced with the threat of a crackdown, money is now pouring out of the country into overseas tax havens such as Liechtenstein, the Bahamas and Cyprus.
Although Brussels has now agreed to provide the next stage of its debt payment programme to safeguard the country's immediate economic future, the Greek media still carries ominous warnings that the military may be forced to step in should the country's foray into Europe end in ignominy, bankruptcy and rising violence.
For now, the crisis has simply been delayed. With European taxpayers facing the prospect of saving Greece from bankruptcy for the second year in a row, some say even the £100bn on offer will pay off only the interest on the country's debts — meaning it will be broke again within two years.
Meanwhile, there are doom-laden warnings that the collapse of the Greek economy could be the catalyst for another global recession. Perhaps if the Greeks themselves had shown more willingness to tighten their belts and pay taxes due to the state, voters across Europe might not now be feeling such anger towards them.
Taken from: GREECE – A Herculean, published December 1, 2011
"(..) according to the EU solidarity its member states should be prevented from introducing internal reforms which would increase their international competitiveness, however at the expense of their citizens. (...)"
- That's utter BS. Care to provide a source?
"(...) Once again, the Germans are to be blamed: they cut social spending and increase productivity, thus pushing Greece and other countries at the margins of the European economy."
- Well, from Greek point of view, the Germans should be blamed for everything, of course - it's so nice and easy to have a scapegoat, isn't it? And they should be notably blamed for acting responsibly and reform in order to stay competitive in a globalized economy while Greece chose to irresponsibly run up primary deficit after primary deficit and served itself to previously unheard-of wage increases etc., thus destroying what was left of its already dismal competitiveness.
You must live in cloud-cuckoo-land.
Italy, Spain and Portugal all have structural deficiencies which will demand a lot of them to overcome and become competitive inside the euro zone. But I actually think it can be done.
Greece is a different case - failed-state syndrom. We should all join together and help it reconstruct - outside the euro zone. Of couse it should be allowed to reapply once the feat will be done a few decades from now.
I would just like to mention that most of the comment if referred to a minority of Greeks who live and increase their wealth at the expense of the rest. So if EU really wants to help Greece, something should be done with corruption and not imposing so harsh measures on Greeks. This will never solve the problem. Everyone knows the real cause of the situation Greece is now in: railroad, 'overcrowded' education, CORRUPTION! Therefore, please next time let the European taxpayers know at who they should be angry with and do not generalize for all Greeks.
The only problem with your well meant suggestion is that, when, e.g., the German finance minister suggested last year that 'administrative professionals' should be sent to Athens from eurozone countries with well-working governing authorities in order to address these "real causes of the situation everyone in Greece seems to know", the public outcry in Greece - from left to right - was so mind-blowing hostile - even hateful - that no one in Brussels dares to mention this again.
This is why you Greeks have to live with your "run-down railroad, 'overcrowded' education, and CORRUPTION!" until the end of time . . . or change it yourself through a 'social revolution' . . . but AFTER you've returned to the Drachma.
I would like to comment on some of the views stated by other commentators above.
There have been many opinions from almost everybody.. specialist and non specialist. I have no intention of doubting the fact that a Greek economist might have said all these. What I openly doubt is the generalization that the Greek elites have the same views. Simply because it is not true.
These elites were kept in the shadow of the media for years by the establishment. Now they are openly expressing their views and they state that the road is going to be painful no matter the direction (euro or drachma). They are not looking for escape goats and they do not blame anyone in particular.
Of course there is populism in Greece. As it is in the rest of Europe. A typical method of populism is to take ones opinion, generalize it and present it as the general opinion.
I have given my view with arguments on the role of Germany on the problem in my other comments. The negative and the positive, without denying Greek responsibilities. But I have to comment on the education level in Greece. Please check the statistics of the World Bank or the statistics of Unesco concerning the level of education in Greece.
There are many real problems in Greece and there is no need to create false impressions.
And since you seem to be an expert on the views of the Greek people why don't you share them with us? I will be happy to listen to them.
As for some other comments. Pension system has been reformed. 67 is the age now. Wages and pensions have reduced dramatically. The loss of income is huge. If you want the statistics I can provide them to you although it is not necessary since they are all over the international press.
The rail system, despite the reform is still loosing money. The causes of its losses are far deeper than the salaries. Average salary was not 60k. It was 40K and this was only for certain positions. Unfair stupid and wrong. They have been slashed. The rail system is in the process of becoming private at the moment.
About the quality of teaching. I do not know who Helena is but she is wrong. Teachers are not what do you describe. They are of good quality . Yes they are to many. Yes they have to be reduced and the remaining to work more. Yes the system is inefficient. And no. I am Greek and I am disappointed to say that on this issue there has been no question yet for a reform.
Tax evasion. Yes there is. Tax collection system is inefficient. And instead of trying to invent one, a Franco-German task force will support so the results are produced earlier.
The studies on the investments of the Greek homes and the Italians will show that the amount is considering the situation, relatively high. This is due to the fact that it includes homes. Greek and Italians have a tradition of owning a house. They consider it as a priority in their life's. and this tradition runs for dacades. Luckily most do since this helped maintain social integrity. It is a lot different to have a shelter and being unemployed than not have one. Hence the heavy taxation on it which further reduced actual incomes. And this type of investment even if they wanted to make it cash at the moment they cannot. The market is dead.
Swimming pools and other ways to try and create false impressions are to sad to be commented.
Military taking over?? You have to put a limit to your animosity.. your comment degrades to libel.
As I said there are many problems. And one can debate on them. But trying to create impressions , adopting simplifications and generalizations, with the ultimate goal to give collective guilt to a nation for the mistakes of its establishment is not only populism and cheap, it is eventually dangerous. Unfortunately it at the same time easy to swallow both in Greece and abroad.
Greece must "get out from the Euro zone" is psychological projection on your part. The mishandling of the Greek crisis by northern Europeans of the EU and the IMF is caused by this prejudice and desire to throw them out of Europe.
Leaving the Euro is no panacea or solution for the country in the current context.
Greece needs help - and it needs help from other Mediterraneans, like us Italians, because it is clear the northern barbarians really do not understand Greece. The basic approach of the EU/ECB, as manifested by northern European representatives, has been "You Greeks have 2-3 years to convert to Lutheranism or you must be thrown to the wolves. Start acting like Lutherans or there is no room in Europe for you."
With that type of approach, the so-called rescue packages were always going to fail - and one wonders if that was not the original intention of the German government right from the beginning: buy time for their banks to weather the blow, and then when they were ready, push Greece out of the Euro, out of Europe and into poverty.
Papandreou was right to say that history has rarely seen a small, basically indefenseless country like Greece so harshly treated by the powerful interests of Europe. From the beginning, the Germans have only been interested in the pursuit of their own naked interest: arms sales, banks and the votes of little German shopkeepers in support of Berlin's larger geopolitical ambitions.
Returning to the drachma is no solution.
The representatives of the Troika should be replaced.
From now on, only individuals capable of downing an entire bottle of Ouzo over several plates of dolmathes, tzatzaki, moussaka, keftethes, tyropita, kasseri and dondurma should be permitted to represent the European Union/ECB in Athens.
Sorry for taking you serious again a few hours ago. My bad - I'm forgiving too easily. It's obvious you are lost to demagoguery.
You may report back when you'll have recovered, though. As a Lutheran, I'm a big believer in forgiveness.
But I don't fall for your steroetypical Italian mama's boy/ drama queen act one bit. Do yourself a favor and toughen up.
The Germans are doing many times more for the rescue of the euro than the Italians, btw, who don't show exactly a particularly great devotion to the greater European good, but instead indulge in endless navelgazing.
Get your own house in order and stop dragging the euro zone down, and Europe will be happy to take lessons from Italy again. Until then, we should listen to those who deliver results and not just flaming speeches.
Our deficit this year is on track for 1.8%. What are you blabbering about?
Thanks! Very useful and vivid examples
I am flabbergasted by many statements by many Greeks as well.
Read below comments by one Leofloros Govou, I just can't stop myself not to mention just one of the quotations he mentions - by Joseph Stalin - "I am sorry because I am getting old and Ishall not live long to thank the GreekPeople, whose resistance decided WW II." He had long list of quotes like that!
One wonders should we cry or laugh.
BTW, leaving aside my personal opinions, I would encourage you to google translate the following article from our financial press - which adequately represents Italian perception of German policy:
"tirare la corda" is an expression in Italian that means "Yank the rope too hard" as in "over-doing it".
"adopting simplifications and generalizations, with the ultimate goal to give collective guilt to a nation for the mistakes of its establishment is not only populism and cheap, it is eventually dangerous. Unfortunately it at the same time easy to swallow both in Greece and abroad."
Der Bild is a effective propaganda for such generalisations
There's a parallel in behaviours, China:
Fortunately NATO still is in Europe
"The mishandling of the Greek crisis by northern Europeans of the EU and the IMF is caused by this prejudice and desire to throw them out of Europe."
Totally nonsense and crap!
Perhaps. I wish you were right.
If the Greek people did not perceive the European Union as an enemy, would they have voted for so many politicians/parties with public stances against EU policy?
There is some rebellion against austerity in France. We will see what policies will seek to adopt. But backtracking on austerity in France, Italy and Spain, on the question of our OWN budget consolidation, is a dead end. It would be wrong-headed, nationalistic, economically unsound and self-defeating.
But the real problem of the Euro-zone is now the credibility of the united currency and the bonds issued in its denomination. The best way to address that is to attack the worst-affected by the crisis - Portugal, Ireland and especially Greece.
Moral hazard be damned. Italy and Spain do not need economic assistance and are too large to be able to credibly request it ever from other countries. But Portugal, Ireland and especially Greece need a bit of GIFTED help. Not to boost their spending, nor to develop their economy, nor as Regional Assistance. They need cash - to hand over to their creditors - in the name of macroeconomic stabilisation.
If the Euro-zone is strong, Spain and Italy are not at all at risk. If the Euro itself becomes a source of instability - as has happened by now - all bets are off. This instability is caused principally by the Greek situation spinning out of control.
I am sorry. I cannot support German brinksmanship with Greece. Not when a few billion gifted from those of us older and richer EEC members could easily bring the situation to more rational levels.
This whole situation is beginning to look more and more like the Cuban missile crisis.
It is too easy to blame the Greeks. We are discovering that their entire political and economic system is dysfunctional. The arrogant Germanz were completely unaware of this before? They accept no responsibility, no official, State, taxpayer responsibility for the failure of their own regulators to better control the activity of their banks and arms merchants? What were they doing lending tens of billions to a country without a Land Registry?
I see that our chum Jean-Guy GIRAUD is up to its tricks again :)
Is this the Brussels hack you outed some time ago?
Yes, but it hardly needed outing.
Poor thing it got scared by Pitlopv and ran away.
the United Limeys, the Trojan Horse of the USA.
Pull the plug on the defibrilators
I generally look forward every week to reading the Economist but and I am becoming disappointed every time I see the same proposals rolled out for solving the Eurozone crisis. Yes the solutions proposed could ceteris paribus patch things up if we were dealing with a single nation of different states or provinces. We are not, however, in such a felicitous situation. As your article points out each state is structurally and politically different, fiercely proud and each has accepted and perpetuated its vices for decades. Indeed for some those vices have become part and parcel of the fabric of their societies. The fiscal pact revealed once more the founding principle of the Eurozone: make rules and everything will be OK. But in monetary affairs it is not rules alone but rules in alliance with the markets that prevail and it is more than apparent that the markets no longer believe in the utility of the rules. Yet all members pay lip service to the idea that they can legislate a solution to the issue. I regret that this will end in tears and it would be salutary if more attention was paid to breaking up the Euro than continuously applying defibrilators with higher and higher voltage
Europe, the Eurozone rather, has been Greece's Achilles heel.
It's more accurate, as Greece was washed in the magical river of euros & dies shortly after struck by the austerity arrow, whereas the Eurozone will most probably muddle through alright.
Two questions remain:
[a] Will Greece exit the EU as well?
A lot of harsh words will be exchanged as the two sides adjust to the divorce. I therefore see it extremely difficult for Greece to remain inside the EU. Illegal immigration is a thorny/explosive issue for Greece and may very well serve as the excuse for exiting the EU. The "noble" rules of the EU on the subject in conjunction with its inability to grasp the magnitude of the problem due to the huge influx from Turkey will have rendered Grexit II unavoidable.
[b] Will Greece exit NATO?
Greece will feel unwelcome inside NATO after Grexit I & II, a development which will sooner or later push it in the only other available camp available to Christian Orthodox Greece, the Russian one.
By the next decade USA will withdraw from Nato so it really doesn't matter.
65 years of the USA footing the bill for Europe's defense through Nato is coming to an end much sooner than you or other Europeans realize
Antiphon the sophist
I just watched Michael Portillo going around Greece and Germany doing his opinion poll : nobody wants to leave the Euro.
People with/without a job, people who pay the fund to help Greece....
Only the Economist and some Brits wants Greece to leave.
But that does not make news any more.
You just do not get it.
If you would have any clue about history you would not spill complete nonsense like that.
Get the OoB of NATO forces in Europe for 1970-1989 and you will fiond that you sound like a complete idiot, but you are used to it, aren't you? (Hint US ground forces contributed less than 25%, factoring in France it would be less than 20%).
The current unsustainable situation is to a large extend the result of political decisions in the USA after the collapse of the SU and I do not see any advantage to support this nonsense. Interestingly the Chinese are doing the same the USA did before and after WWI and in most of current strategic discussions in the USA the participants have real problems to grasp this.
Yes, the European military might in Nato is so great that they couldn't even stop a tin pot dictator in the Balkans from causing ethnic cleansing and genocide-sebrenica on European soil. Guess who had to put out that fire?
Yup European military power is so great that the they couldn't even enforce a no-fly zone over Libya without American help.
And you like most Germans display a profound ignorance of North American history and the usual arrogant 'we are the center of the universe' attitude.
Hello Obama has already announced a strategic shift from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Gavelgazing Europeans have no clue what that even means.
Was Obama's speech to the Australian parliament even get a hearing on European media? Well it was a forceful reminder that the USA has TWO military alliances. Nato and the ANZUS alliance with Australia & New Zealand and guess which alliance is becoming more important to American strategic interests?
And here is lesson one on American history. North America has always been a pacific powers well for centuries and California and Vancouver do more trade over the pacific than with the Atlantic.
Not only USA but Canada as well is turning more and more towards the Pacific.
The strategic shift to the pacific will be gradual but it will result eventually in the North American withdrawal from Nato.
As a British statesmen once put it. Countries don't have permenant allies, they only have permenant interests. North America's interests have taken sharp turn towards the pacific and the 'we are the center of the universe' Europeans haven't even noticed. Do you even know that Obama has met with the Austrlaian PM more times than most European leader because of all those Asia - Pacific conferences which hardly get a mention in the European media.
Just because Europeans would have to slash billions from their social programs to get an adequate military structure after the American departure will not be taken into consideration by North American public opinion which has grown tired of footing the bill for Europe's defense through Nato for over 60 years.
Glad that NATO is still in Europe, the only people that want it out are your, I wonder why?
Germany, Italy and Japan are forking out billions 'they call it : sympathy budget" from the end of Korea war.
Please yankees/gringoes. GO HOME!
Germany, Italy and Japan are forking out billions 'they call it : sympathy budget" from the end of Korea war.
Please yankees/gringoes. GO HOME! and let's keep our money.
In the meantime you can tell me: Who is the enemy?
"Who is the enemy?"
Just ask yourself who owns the commodities like oil and gas and hasn't enough military power to protect himself and you'll know who's the enemy. ;)
Ah now its a shift of interests.
See the USA spends much more on war and gets less back Iraq and Afghanistan? Get real. And they occupation there provided a secure environment for the population to prosper, was worth to ruin the US economy?
Sorry, war of choice is usually a mistake, which does not become better by spending more money on the nonsense.
I have no problems with a shift of stregic interests, but I do no see any use for Europe to spend money for a war in the Pacific, especially when the main player on "our" side, the USA, will have real problems to align goals with (not longer) available means. Here you could simply check shipyard capacity and destruction of industrial base, the cornerstones of good US strategy in 1900-1945. The USA, even if you do not understand the problem, is the UK before and after WWI.
Your typical wet dreams are no substitute for a littel bit hard work.
Marie, I am pro NATO! However, it is a DEFENSE treaty and it is not in our interest to convert European resoures into expeditiinary forces for an adventure in the Pacific.
I do not claim that Europena strategy is good, but I do not see an improvement when we follow the unsustainable US path.
And BTW Sherrybloed, you could get your butt out of the sofa and join the US or Canadian military forces, then you have a real chance to put your heart where your mouth is.
And just ask yourself who depends on Mid-east oil the most?
There is no excuse for ignorance in this day and age of the ignorant.
Google and find out. It might shock the hell out of brainwashed Europeans such as yourself.
Here we go again the lies, the Iraq war didn't ruin the US economy. The USA over $15 trillion economy is big enough to absorb that shock.
However the trillions the USA spent on Nato over 65 years have resulted in much greater loss.
And Afghanistan was a UN action with the overwhelming support of the UN. Somehow the German narrative of Afghanistan never mentions this fact. The goal of the Afghanistan mission was to get rid of the Al Qaeda camps that resulted in 911. It was acommplished. And somehow the German narrative of Afghanistan never mentions that fact that Germans with German passports in Al Qeada camps have been taken out by US drones. Those Al Qaeda trained Geramns with German passports could have easily blended in German society and caused havoc.
Somehow the German narrative of Afghanistan never mentions the fact how Germany benefited from the disruption of Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan. It is German which has a problem with integrating its muslim immigrants. Dissatified muslim immigrants in Germany/Europe are prime targets for Al Qeada recruitments.
The reason the USA has shifted its stragetic interests to the pacific is to avoid war. However brainwashed Europeans such as yourself fed on a diet of the generally anti-American media in Gremany will not get it.
It is not a mere coincidence that ever since US troops entered western europe and STAYED that part of europe enjoyed its greatest period of peace. The USA has keep the balance of power in Europe so effortlessly that Europeans think the balance of pwoer in is kept by magic.
Europe is place where big powers rub each other in close proxmity. A receipi for disaster which was averted by the US presence in Nato keeping the balance of power.
The USA will play that role in the Pacific now, keeping the balance of power between big powers (China, Japan) with centuries of hostilities and warefare. Sound familiar?
Don't they teach critical thinking skills in Germany? It is China which is now threatening the Philipness with war. It is China which has challenged Vietname, Philipiness, Japan etc for sovereignty over islands and the south China sea.
And we don't expect any help from Germany which is a crude mercantile power with a policy of export at any cost without any moral or ethical boundaries. Germany doesn't give a damn about the Chinese threatening philipness with war, it only cares about its exports to china.
The Germany that stood by and refused to help the citizens of Benghazi whle Gaddffi's forces had surrounded it and promised to slaughter like rats is not a Germany that can be expected to stand for the defense of free and democratic countries in the pacific.
It is you who is living in wet dream of 'we are the center of the universe'.
"it is a DEFENSE treaty and it is not in our interest to convert European resoures into expeditiinary forces for an adventure in the Pacific.'
Projecting Germany behavior onto the Americans.
It was the Euorpeans who used the Americans as an expeditionary force in Europe during the Balkans wars in the 1990's.
However all that is coming to an end much sooner than you realize.
The next time the Balkans blows up, let the neighborhood take care of it. Germany better start slashing billions from is social programs to build an adequate Air force.
The rest of the world noticed that during the last Balkan's war, Europe stood by and was powerless to do anything while a tin pot dictator when on a ethnic cleansing spree and genocide- Sebrenica on european soil.
The Americans won't be there to put it out next time.
"And BTW Sherrybloed, you could get your butt out of the sofa and join the US or Canadian military forces."
It looks like Europeans such as yourself who will be having to get out of the sofa and do something for change.
The smug arrogance of europeans living comfortably under US protection never ceases to amaze me. Hello It is Europe that lives next to all the hotspots of the world such as Balkans, North Africa, Middle-east, Russia, dysfunctional former Soviet republics. Not geographically isolated North Americans.
However spolit europeans such as yourself think if the Balkans blows up it should be Americans doing the bleeding and dying to put out the fire while Europeans such as yourself sit in comfort.
Those days are coming to an end much sooner than you think.
Smug spolit europeans fed on a diet of 'we are the center of the universe' have no clue what is going to hit them soon.
and well... erm... what about the weather?
... what about the weather? Oh, after the powerful strike of the debt storm, the recession and unemployment storms are sweeping the eurozone. These storms are swirling back and forth endlessly... and there's still no shun-shining in your Portugal ...
"what about the weather?"
Drought may be ending soon in Iberian peninsula.
Fill the dam and farm fish.
The Sun is actually shining powerfully today. What about Formosa? Or Vietnam? If you are vietnamese did you know the the alphabet you use was devised by a group of portuguese Jesuits??? :) the friendhsip between our peoples is imortal . Hence Why you should help us get our crown jewels back!! Help! Help! Please help!!!!!!!
We always remember that the Vietnamese language was devised by H.E Alexandre de ROHDES. We thus honorly named a big and beautiful street in Saigon City (the biggest city of our country) as Alexandre de ROHDES - The Alexandre de ROHDES Street.
Mr. Calisto, a Portugese as the coach of our national football team, was the first man who sucessfully led our national team to defeat all ASEAN football teams some years ago. The people of our country are very proud of him. We would never forget him.
So, it's no doubt that the friendship between our people is immortal.
Read the introduction , and the. Chapter 6.
You need to brush up on the history of your own country!!
sorry was using the Pad which makes it harder to copy-paste stuff
As early as 1527, Portuguese Christian missionaries in Vietnam began using Latin script to transcribe the Vietnamese language for teaching and evangelization purposes. These informal efforts led eventually to the development of the present Vietnamese alphabet, largely by the work of French Jesuit Alexandre de Rhodes, who worked in the country between 1624 and 1644. Building on previous Portuguese–Vietnamese dictionaries by Gaspar d'Amaral and Duarte da Costa, Rhodes wrote the Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et Latinum, a Vietnamese–Portuguese–Latin dictionary, which was printed in Rome in 1651, using his spelling system.[1]
I remind you that his was a Vietnamese-PORTUGUESE-Latin dictionary. Which was just a carbon copy of what Portuguese missionaries had done before him, he just compiled it all in one book. Must have been really hard. The latinisation of some of the Vietnamese phonemes was based on previous works by several Portuguese missionaries which also helped in the latinisation of many other Asian tongues.
Sure. You are correct. I'm very bad at the history of the language of my country. I'm s orry for this huge mistake. It's very shameful, indeed. I even thought that H.E Alexandre de Rohdes is a Portugese. It's a huge mistake. Forgive me, please.
You are hereby forgiven.
Unlike other Europeans, we forgive other people's mistakes, and also apologise when we commit some.
On another note, does anyone truly take these articles seriously any more? We all know the actors behind all this, what they want, and etc. Who cares? It's been said countless times. The Economist would do best in focusing in other more interesting topics - and the lobbies, oh yeah the lobbies - who still think this 'crisis ' is still worth anything should just leave the rest of the world alone. And take their bulldogs with them,
I, will certainly NOT take any of these articles seriously and shall only write silly things on these walls. It's a form of protest you see?
"only write silly things on these walls". Yes, it's graffiti. But graffiti is the modern art.
I understand you.
Interesting, The Portugese were the people that first knew the seas routes toward Asia
I still remember the TV serie "Shogun"
Six of said items were stolen from an exhibit in the Hague, Netherlands, in 2002 in rather peculiar circumstances. I will provide you with this link, Brazilian, with some of the Portuguese crown jewels:
and this other link, with a more extensive list - thankfully there's still a lot more (the ones that say 'roubada na Holanda' (were stolen in Holland):
and this link which explains how they were stolen, followed by a google
translation of the beginning:
http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1407072 [3]
"Capital" security breaches "very amateur" facilitated the theft of the jewels of the Portuguese crown valued at more than six million euros that had
been loaned to the Municipal Museum in The Hague, Netherlands in December 2002.
The Dutch authorities have closed the investigation without any conclusion about the crime, nor about the fate of six stolen relics that were part of the museum of the National Palace of Ajuda. But for the Judicial Police (PJ) of Portugal, many questions were left unanswered. To enter the display area, for example, have burglars from the glass of a window located in front of the security cabinet, operating 24 hours each day. Nobody gave the intrusion and none of the seven video surveillance cameras captured images, or the robbery or the robbers. How was that possible?
If any of you eventually discover any bits of information regarding the
pieces that were stolen, please contact your local authorities.
They were valued at 6 mn euro by an insurance company, located in the
Netherlands, which is obviously too low a price for something that not only
has its inherent material value (they would probably be worth more!), but its
historical, symbolic, and cultural values are incalculable.
These pieces are unique.
Help the people of Portugal get them back!
I will leave you with a link to several government agencies that you should contact if you ever discover any information about them!!!
Thank you
Apart from the usual crowd of bankers, managers, their hands in politics, and probably some Southern European bludgers, nobody in their right mind wants to "save" the dreaded Euro.
This currency has totally, utterly, completely, irreversibly failed, and every day longer with this monstrosity is a lost day for Europe.
The only way I can see the so-called Euro survive is by all of Southern Europe, and France leaving it. However, TE and its friends on WS and in the City want to milk the chaos for some longer and rather want a "... mutualization of debt ...", and other nonsense that allows them to plunder what remains intact in Europe.
Just look who else is beating the drums for "mutualization of debt" instead of "living within one's means". - People like George Soros, who made billions by betting against the well-being of nations and his Nobel-prized and silver-tongued henchman Paul Krugman.
Money sharks just love "risky markets" they can leach . . . but, of course, not SOOO risky that they can actually lose their wagers.
This is why they don't promote "less borrowing" but more borrowing from "risk-pending-candidates"; best suited with obligatory reinsurance by a German-guaranteed mutualization of excessive borrowings, so that they can 'risk-free' achieve their usual high returns . . . This would apply at least to mid-term investments, since, in the long run, Germany's credibility would go down the drain as well that way.
E.g. Soros needs to place the billions of his various Quantum Asset Management Funds in a way, so that they are 'less risky', given the general market instability, but still 'risky' enough to achieve the promised return on investment.
The huge borrowing market of the profligate eurozone members, backed up by the German's creditability, would just be what Soros and other hyenas on Wall Street and in London's City are needing now, while profits in their profession are everywhere plunging.
Hyenas are desperate where to go. China's housing boom plunged. America only keeps afloat with trillions of stimulus injections (which might run dry if the Republicans win). Africa is still too poor and politically uncertain to suck, on a lasting basis, huge profits out, and Japan being too autarkic in her borrowing-environment to be attractive to guys like Soros.
Therefore, one can easily tell which way the wind here is blowing (also concerning this leading article).
Financial instability, underwritten by German taxpayers ... yes, sounds like a good scenario for speculators.
Very curious what today's elections in NRW will bring. If the "save Europe" coalition of SPD, CDU, Greens and large parts of FDP win, then speculation can look forward to some more good years bankrolled by dumbwitted Germans.
I am afraid it will go that way ... propaganda by the likes of this newspaper is just too ubiquitous for many people to understand the underlying dynamics.
"People like George Soros, who made billions by betting against the well-being of nations and his Nobel-prized and silver-tongued henchman Paul Krugman."
Soros is the villian who pioneered how one can make billions by bringing down central banks. So we have millions of Soros-inspired locusts.
What Paul the Klutchman does not understand is that US is no longer closed economy. Most of American manufacturing industries transferred to overseas through offshoring and outsourcing. In this environment, government spending with borrowing only snowballs sovereign debts without much ripple effects on demestic economy. At New Deal's time, Keyensean policies worked because money didn't leak to overseas! Now is an entirely different story. Klutchman doesn't understand this reality!
It's still partly true for government projects such as highway construction, tornado and hurricane relief, gulf clean up after oil spill etc. that this 'stimulates' locally. Firms doing these projects are almost solely domestic, employing domestic labor.
But it's not true for long-term unemployment funding and welfare supplements. Their spending hardly ever trickles down to more job creation. Money spent aside from food and shelter, mostly goes nowadays to imported Asian consumer goods.
I always said too that in a globalized world trickle-down economics doesn't work. This is the same with the steady claim of this paper that Germany 'must stimulate' consumption, so that it trickles down to the GIIPS. The Germans would be kidding themselves if they'd believe that. Infrastructure programs might work up to a certain extent domestically, but those would not go to firms in Spain, Italy or Greece.
Most working Germans have all their basic needs fulfilled already. Recipients of welfare wouldn't spend their holidays in Greece anyway. Those who could afford them and don't go are disgusted by some Greeks' repulsive attitude toward Germany and German people (as seen on this blog 'en masse' as well).
Being in Germany currently, I can't think of goods from those countries people would start consuming if they had more money in their pockets, aside from Irish Kerry Gold butter maybe and Spanish Fuetec Salami (just, how much extra cholesterol can/should a person take in?). Most likely extra spending would go into Asian consumer goods or into savings . . . unless peripheral companies really would start promoting their products in Europe's North.
"Firms doing these projects are almost solely domestic, employing domestic labor.
But it's not true for long-term unemployment funding and welfare supplements. "
When government spend one dollar, there should be 20 dollar "ripple-down" effects. For example, government projects pay workers wages. The wages are used to buy products and services "made in America". Then American manufactuers get more orders and employ more people. Then newly employed people spends more to buy American-made products. More demand for American manufacturers. This ripple-down effect is how Keyesean New Deal works. However, at the moment, government spends money, workers buy China-made products from Wallmart! That's all. The ripple-down effect is felt in China! Not in America.
To make things work, they have to create jobs for unemployed people to manufacture things that can be exported and/or replace import items. Creating other non-essential projects are waste of money and recipe for more debts!
"However, at the moment, government spends money, workers buy China-made products from Wallmart! That's all. The ripple-down effect is felt in China! Not in America."
This is exactly the problem the Obama's administration is facing right now. The USA is lacking the broad basis of educated, highly skilled labor to produce high-end manufactured consumer goods (which is, e.g., the German manufacturers' specialty).
Plus, the market for high-end manufacturing is not big enough in the US to make up for the huge - but already lost - mass-consumer product market. It's here usually only the highly educated well-offs who go for high quality and longevity of a product; the bulk of Americans make their buying decisions by bargain retail prices and - too often - by 'glittery' looks".
This is quite different with the Germans, I've noticed when being there. They still go for high quality and longevity, ready to pay higher prices for technical or engineering products if they fulfill their high requirements and expectations (relative to the US consumers) . . . and they prefer 'cool' but professional service over America's pushy and hustling 'over-friendliness' in retail.
This quality-oriented buying culture is even getting to a point where some German manufactures operate different production programs for the highly fastidious domestic market and another program for less hard-hitting export markets.
The draw-back of this 'quality over price' concept for a "consumer driven growth" is that their (the German's) products don't need replacement as early as the products bought, e.g., in the USA. This slows down the renewal-cycle for the whole retail economy.
I do shopping at Wal-Mart, Target or K-Mart myself, but I am aware that these markets are the grave diggers for America's long-term competitiveness.
President Obama's long-ranging budget visions (presented Feb 2012) were trying to take this into account. He wants resources to be channeled from military spending into community college education and vocational training.
This would be the correct approach, IMO, but it's too late to have much of an effect within this decade, last but not least because the American consumers' awareness for quality has to change as well . . . and this is much more a cultural issue than an educational one.
"Is it possible that Germany, far from trying to save the Euro, actually wants to break it up? A clear historical precedent is the sabotage of the European exchange-rate mechanism (ERM) in 1992. And the institution that now seems to be working to destroy the Euro is the same one that organised the ERM breakup—the Bundesbank.
The Bundesbank, as an institution, has always opposed European monetary unification, except insofar as it meant the imposition of German economic philosophy on other countries. This attitude of monetary imperialism was summarised by a remark in nt Times obituary published for Richard Medley (the legendary hedge-fund consultant who was at the centre of the ERM breakup as George Soros's political consultant). Helmut Schlesinger, the Bundesbank president in 1992, was asked why he disliked the precursor of the Euro, which was called the Ecu. He replied, "I have nothing against the Ecu apart from its name—I think it should be called the Deutschemark".
Back in 1992, the Bundesbank encouraged Soros and other speculators to sell Sterling and the Italian Lira in order to break up the ERM. But the Bundesbank also discretely hinted that the French Franc should be supported because France was in a different category as a German ally from Italy, Britain and Spain. As Soros later said in an interview, also quoted in last week's obituary for Medley: "I felt safe betting with the Bundesbank. The Bundesbank clearly wanted the Pound and Lira devalued, but it was prepared to defend the French Franc. I did better than some others by sticking to the Bundesbank's side."
MC, while the position of the Bundesbank differs from other Central Banks insofar, as its decisions are - by German law - based on 'securing' the value of the currency, uninfluenced by the political demands of changing governments, the notion that "the Bundesbank encouraged Soros and other speculators to sell Sterling and the Italian Lira in order to break up the ERM" is surely a hoax (Soros, maybe, wants to justify his semi-criminal activities back in 1992 retrospectively).
But is was, of course, open to scrutiny for a clever investor of Soros' caliber that the Bundesbank had to stop buying Italian Lira and British Pound after its required hard currency assets had dropped below the minimum inventory. This was the point when any (again) clever market observer would have/should have known that market pressure will soon demand a devaluation since the Bank of England and the Bank of Italy had tun out of forex as well. So no need to paint weird 'conspiracy theories' here. Leave this to JoeSolaris.
the "unsupported"
It might well be that the Bundesbank stated (not hinted) that the French Franc should be further supported because France was indeed in a different fiscal shape than the other two at that time.
France leaving the EMU the following year was solely France's decision and had nothing to do with the Bundesbank. Though, in the wake of France's EMU departure, the Bundesbank lost approx 18% of the value of all its Franc reserves at the time.
This was the equivalent of roughly 1.8 billion USD, and this is also the major reason why the Bundesbank is very reluctant to back other euro countries finances, where the Buba has no influence over their fiscal behavior.
"by German law - based on 'securing' the value of the currency, uninfluenced by the political demands of changing governments"
except when they are neighbours' governments !
No, it isn't a hoax !
hmm, without France, germany couldn't have finalised her dream of the EZ Lebensraum, what the Bundesbank did then it was nothing comparatively of the benefits that she sas insuring for germany afterwords
Bundesbank didn't lose money with France, we repaid the loans with higher interests
Guys, firstly, congrats for many well put and intelligent comments. High level readers...
As a Brazilian who had already lived in UK and USA I have to point out some important figures here to open eyes of Europeans:
What some Europeans countries have been experimenting during last years are far away from what South and Central Americans, Asians and Africans have experimented for the last decades. Unemployment rate at 20%, poverty, violence, pollution have been a daily activity to the majoraty of countries in these continents. Now, you guys are complaining to work till 62´s, 44 hours a week, less benefits, etc. These are things people are used to here for ages. Stop complaining and face the reality!!!
The say Asia, Africa and South America are growing fast right? Yes, it is but still for few people. This week a survey was released in Brazil and 75% of the families live with maximum 500 euros a month. Everyday I go to work and cross through dozens of people starving and asking money. In my office with 2000 employees there are only about 10 black people while 55% of society are blacks. Can you see the inequality?? Can you conclude where the 90% are??
Stop complaing guys, you have never suffered as those poor people in under-developed suffer!! You guys have education for only 2.000 euros a year (some places are even free). You guys can travel to another country for 60 euros. You guys can have free healthcare, sanitation. You guys can get pension after retiring. What else would you like??? You must go to Sudan or Bolivia or Costa Rica or Vietnam and then you will give value to your life and conclude that the crisis that you are living now are just peanuts in comparison to what the vast majority of people in the world have been suffering.
Now that USA and Europe are in crisis they do riots, they fight agains Governments, they do some movements (Occupy). Why haven´t you done that before when only the poor people in poor countries were suffering???
Anyway, in my opinion, Greece should leave Euro and default officially. They will survive and get back to growth sooner than expected as Argetina did in 2002.
And Euro is devoted to die!
To make matters worse the Merkozy put pressure on Brazil to contribute to the IMF bailouts for the eurozone the richest part of the world while millions live in poverty in Brazil.
And now we have Germans on this blog lecturing Greeks that they shoud be ashamed.
Perhaps they should take a good look at what is being done in the name of Germany by the German government.
"Greece should leave Euro and default officially. They will survive and get back to growth sooner than expected as Argetina did in 2002."
Comparing Greece with Argentina is nonsense. Argentina is a resourceful country with huge agricultural potential to develop. Greece has nothing other than some tourism. There is no future potentials for Greece. Only obvious thing is to deflate bloated economy and live by own means.
Hey friend, why you always look down on the Greeks? Greece has 10 million people. That's the best asset of Greece. I'm sure that they will succeed if they try their best.
The Greeks are living by their own means, don't you see it? Debts are just the past mistake of the wrongful politicians of Greece. It's not the mistake of the Greeks. The Greeks are in difficulty right now. You should help them if you can.
"The Greeks are living by their own means, don't you see it?"
Where do you get this information? Greece has trade/current account debts of about 12% of GDP. Greek industries are not superior to her neighbors such as Turkey, Albania, Bulgaria. Still Greek per capita is about three times higher than neighbors. Without "further" borrowing and spending, the level will sink to those of neighbors.
Greece's 'true level' of living standard, measured by competitiveness (not by debt driven 'productivity), is below Turkey's. And Turkey doesn't even have half of Greece's average per capita GDP. This is further proof that half of Greece's GDP is 'unearned', boosted by unsustainable debt and skyrocketing negative TARGET2 accounts.
Open letter to Germany
Greeks are pathetic and unrepentent. More importantly they are unappreciative for the helps they got so far. How long world tax payers, especially eu tax payers, should foot the bill of $27,000 per capita profligate life style of Greeks while many of us earn below $2,700 a year? Is it fair for people who live under $2 dollars a day?
Isn't it time Germany pull the plugs off from IMF and ECB and say enough is enough already?
Germany should do the right thing!
The Germans say "enough is enough" already, but they haven't pull the plugs off from IMF and ECB since they don't want to see the the fake coin is melting. The Germans are clever enough to understand what to do. It's not the fault of the Germans only, so I wonder why people here are blaming them only?
The materials used to make this fake coin is not good, so even if it's melted, it can't be used to cast car engines. It's wasteful.
"I wonder why people here are blaming them only?"
When you have bad economy, you don't blame the economy! Instead people normally blame the leader who is your President.
So we are blaming the leader of euro zone, the Germany!
"So we are blaming the leader of the eurozone, the Germany".
If you elect Germany as the leader of that debt-laden zone, so why don't you obey their orders by taking "Usterity Drug" daily?
If I were the Germans, I would flatly refuse such costly leading role.
"If I were the Germans, I would flatly refuse such costly leading role."
It's catch 22!
Diana B. Henriques, the other of The Wizard of Lies about Bernie Madoff, shows sympathy for those who have been lied to. But, she concludes poignantly, "in a world full of lies, the most dangerous ones are those we tell ourselves."
In Europe, many people tell themselves a lot of lies. The real crisis still lies ahead.
It is simply bonkers to even consider that the average Greek-in-the-street is to blame for the economic problems of the country. I mean, while they were trying to make ends meet for their families why would they possibly have stopped to think that their whole system - and attachment to the euro - was completely flawed.
Let them be free of the single currency. The money will never, ever, be paid back (they don't stand a chance), and the only possibility is let them start again, no matter that such a thing in itself will be fraught with difficulty.
Slithy Toves: "Let them be free of the single currency".
Isn't that what the Greeks themselves can't decide on as the last Sunday's elections showed? It's not a question if the "average Greek-in-the-street is to blame for the economic problems of the country" . . . even less are the average 'other Europeans' to blame for.
But it's still in the Greeks voters' (voting) hands to make the necessary decisions themselves, since they cannot be 'expelled' from the eurozone. They can only be stripped of further funding. This is exactly what was announced by other Eurozone members after last week's ballot.
@emmafinney = sherryblack (blacklisted) = marie -claude (?)
Could you please stop to insult everybody - now?
Whilst some of your comments are enriching the debate - sometimes, you almost always quickly decend into insults - degrading whole nations - attaking innocent contributors and dragging the debate into meaningless side issues.
Just stop it - once and for all.
Thanks a lot.
To add some actual content: Apparently someone in Brussels blinked and wants to renegoiate ...... poor Europe.
i am an interested reader here on te, but never a commentator.....but i have to say: FINALLY somebody writes it....absolutely annoying those 3 (1??) person(s)....destroying every single interesting discussion with childish insults and stupid comments...
Emma and Sherry are the same candian citizen.
Marie is a french citizen!
Dummkopf, I told you so
your comment justifies the inclusion in the list, anyway!
I notice that you have nothing constructive to say, but trolling
@el pulpo
"Proud of living on someone's else costs?"
Are you proud of the fact the eurozone with Germany at the driver's seat put pressure on India to contribute to IMF bailout funds for eurozone while millions live in dire poverty in India?
Are you proud that Germany by involving the IMF made sure that American, Canadian, Australian, Brazillians & Indian taxpayes paid for the eurozone bailout through IMF contributions even though they had nothing to do with Germany and other EU members idiotic mistake in allowing Greece into the eurozone?
BTW, has Zimbabwe contributed yet? Perhaps pressure can be applied to Somaila next.
Will Merkel & company go on a begging bowl mission at this year's G20 summit browbeating non-European countries to contribute to IMF eurozone bailouts and pay for the stupidity and blunders of the EU?
It's surely not Merkel who's begging. Why should Merkel worry for Greece more than for her people at home? For her, as a Protestant, it's still the rule that "charity begins at home". She's ready to let Greece loose. Her elections are coming. She worries more about her own voters.
It's rather others who beg and see this as "biggest risk".
The Economist: "The idea of a chaotic Greek departure from the euro . . . the damage it would do the world economy may well be the biggest risk to Barack Obama's chances of re-election . . . With so much at stake . . . "
Why don't step those in, who worry about their own re-election because "the damage it would do the world economy"?
How can the euro zone expect change if nothing changes?
My heart goes out to all those suffering, especially the Greeks that worked honest and hard to only feed the beast.
T.E. ran a Special Report on 'Europe and its Currency' November, 12th, 2011. The last paragraph of the report was as follows:'It is often said that in the face of the Euro crisis the EU must either integrate or disintegrate. Either is possible. More likely,though, it will muddle through, integrating as little as it can get away with, disintegrating as Britain becomes ever more detached, and reforming just enough to get by. When the fuss is over, the chances are that Europe will breathe a sigh of relief and continue rather faster down the path of genteel decline.'
What could more accurately predict the future of the EU, so those who worry about the present situation, should just relax and wait for the storm to pass.
How did Greece get into debt in the first place?
Thru reckless spending. It's the oldest of stories.
And the foolishness of creditors.
The memorandum was an exercse in buying time for a managed default. It wasn't about Greece, it was about German, French and Italian banks.
The glaring error was to suppose that its effects on Greece would just be accepted in return for a lighter load after default. The timing doesn't work. The rest of the EZ has to decide whether the money already spent is to be allowed to written off, and accept a disorderly default, or whether something more can be done.
I think the reason not enough has been put into the fund to support other countries if they default is that it will increase the chance of them defaulting as they know to an extent there will be a safety net. This is in the same way there were more road accidents after seat belts and air bags. I wonder if it was been designed this way purposefully.
Josh_US Lux
Greece will leave the euro, the euro will be safe again
"The disgrace to the European family are people like you who spit those in the face who offer a helping hand. "
Please Josh_US Lux join us to the memorial today to see in first hand what it means their offer of a helping hand. Go EUROPE!
Memorial service at Mauthausen Nazi concentration camp for 3,700 Greek victims
12 May, 2012
A memorial service will be held and wreaths will be laid at the Greek memorial at the former installations of the Mauthausen Nazi concentration camp in Austria on Saturday in memory of the 3,700 Greeks who died there during World War Two.
Bringing up WW2 as an excuse is shameful. Besides it's not just Germany who's paying. What have you got against the Dutch for example?
I dont have anything against Dutch,
Like i said greece needs to pay their debt.
Again my point is hypocritical for germans to ask greece to pay when they havent pay their debtto us.
I dont feel shameful everytime i seat on the table to eat with my dad and i see him eating his food in 30".
i dont feel shameful when i go to the store with my dad and he always buys shoes. I dont feel shameful when he cries when he talks about his mom, i dont feel shameful when he has stones in the yard from his home, i dont feel shamful when he wakes up in the middlel of the night with nightmares.
Those r Psychological problems that people still suffer from these days. Because he didnt have food to eat, he didnt have shoes to wear, because his mom was shot by a 20 year old german boy in the back, because his house was burned to the ground, becuase in his sleep he see airplanes falling down, germans shooting his dad in a line with other villagers, becuase he still see germans walk in to the house and geting all their food pushing his brothers and sisters against the walls.
no i dont feel shame. it is not excuse. It is a reality that you don t have to go through. IT IS NOT OK.
Your country did not suffer as much as Greece.
YOU LOST 170.000 and thank for you resistance
but we lost 10% OF THE POPUATION 1.000.000
It would be like you loosing not 17.000 people but loosing 1.600.000 people
Huge difference. NOT THE SAME
Dont lecture me how i feel or what to think
Oh please, there are other countries that have suffered much more than Greece from WWII. Poland's death toll was 5-6mln people, most of the cities got wiped out from the ground. As much as we hate what happened, it is now the past. Paying for Greece way of living, is definitely not a way forward.
I think you dont want to understand what i said.
1st the article was from david thomas. not me.
Second the article talks about the money that germans took from the greek banks and never return them.
third i found this on the web.
The turn for the good in ww2 and sorry to say not Poland.
We are not pangermani not because of Poland but because of Greece.
Again these are not number i made up or quotes that i wrote.
•Greece 10%
•Soviet Union 2.8%
•Holland 2.2%
•France 2%
•Poland 1.8%
•Yugoslavia 1.7%
•Belgium 1.5%
"For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only theGreeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, foughtwith bold courage and highest disregard of death.."- Adolph Hitler
"I am sorry because I am getting old and Ishall not live long to thank the GreekPeople, whose resistance decided WW II."- Joseph Stalin
"On the 28th of October 1940 Greece was given adeadline of three hours to decide on war or peace buteven if a three day or three week or three year weregiven, the response would have been the same. TheGreeks taught dignity throughout the centuries. Whenthe entire world had lost all hope, the Greek peopledared to question the invincibility of the Germanmonster raising against it the proud spirit of freedom."- Franklin D Roosevelt
"The heroic struggle of the Greek people... AgainstGermany 's attack, after she so thunderously defeatedthe Italians in their attempt to invadethe Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American peoplewith enthusiasm and moved their compassion.-Franklin D Roosevelt
"I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel for the heroic resistance of thePeople and the leaders of Greece." - Charles de Gaul
"The word heroism I am afraid does not render the least of those actsof self-sacrifice of the Greeks, which were the defining factor in thevictorious outcome of the common struggle of the nations, duringWWII, for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for thebravery of the Greeks and their courage, the outcome of WW IIwould be undetermined."- Winston Churchill
Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes.Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks."- Winston Churchill
"If the Russian people managed to raise resistance at thedoors of Moscow to halt and reverse the German torrent, theyowe it to the Greek People, who delayed the German divisionsduring the time they could bring us to our knees."- Georgy Constantinovich Zhoukov
"Regardless of what the future historians shall say, what we can saynow, is that Greece gave Mussolini an unforgettable lesson, that shewas the motive for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held theGermans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks, that she upsetthe chronological order of all German High Command's plans andthus brought a general reversal of the entire course of the war andwe won."- Sir Robert Antony Eden
"It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece upsetthe plans of Germany in their entiretyforcing her to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks. We wonder what would have been SovietUnion's position without Greece." - Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander "Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied butlive Europe. Never a defeat was so honorable for thosewho suffered it."- Maurice Schumann Minister of the exterior of France
"You fought unarmed and won, small againstbig. We owe you gratitude, because you gaveus time to defend ourselves. As Russians andas people we thank you."- Moscow, Radio
"The war with Greece proved thatnothing is firm in the military andthat surprises always await us."- Benito Mussolini
It seems to be one of the less proud of Greek traditions to use whatever works to screw people for their money.
The Germans have paid for WWII in various ways (among them loss of 1/3 of their territory and way overproportional contributions to the EU budget), and if you didn't want to join a club with them, you should have chosen to stay out of the EU and the euro zone.
I have a German mother, btw - hence my interest. And I'm not impressed at all.
Maybe you should try your luck with the Italians for a change, who occupied 80% of Greece during WWII. Or with the Turks who occupied Greece for 300+ years.
Or you could start developing your country for a change. That would also have the added benefit that people around Europe would respect Greece again.
I suspect the reference is in % of victims. In any case these statistics are not even today accurate for all countries and taking into account the scale of destruction and devastation they do not really matter at all.
I totally agree with you. It is the past and we have to leave it there. I want to believe that we have moved a long way since then.
Moreover there is absolutely no relation with the current situation. Not historical not even rhetorical.
Usually "arguments" of this sort result not from logic and knowledge but from emotion and desperation. From that point of view they are understandable but they should never be taken into consideration. The sad thing is that they have been historically cultivated by extremists to trigger the emotions of desperate people. Example was the myth that Germany was never defeated during WW1 but it was betrayed. Nazis build on this myth and eventually they collected.
As for your last statement I also agree. However the issue is not who will pay for the way of living in Greece. The issue is if there is a viable and realistic solution for the countries in trouble including Greece of course to recover. Bail out and austerity = more debt and recession - depression. Plus, Spain and Italy are to big for mail outs. and Spain is currently bankrupt and insolvent and Italy just a step away from it. A balance must be found.
Social integrity must be preserved. I do not know from which country you are but I suggest if you like to do the following projection which I have seen on the BBC. Just project the basic figures of Greece or Spain, ie unemployment, loss of income, loss, deficit, etc to the numbers of your country ie actual number of unemployed, money loss etc. You will see things from a different perspective and realize how resilient a nation must be to retain its social integrity, and how easy it is for a small % of it to emotionally fall for unsound "arguments"..
"The Germans have paid for WWII in various ways"
Because you said so it doesnt mean its true or enough.
Again u are missing the point.
Greece should pay their debt. no question on this.
The point is
GREECE is respected by every educated person. If greece goes throught tough economical times and it is not the first or the last time that will happened.
I know you love yor mom and that is great, but if i were you i wouldnt be very proud for mothers that raised animals that did crimes against humanity. Basicly im proud for my heritage i dont know if you can be.
"Basicly im proud for my heritage"
Proud of living on someone's else costs? What do you think where Greece would be today without the EU? Take a look at your neighbors in Bulgeria, imagine that country without the productivity of the Bulgarians, keep in mind the devastated public institutions and the missing morality and you know where you would stand today.
If you would have a sense of pride you would say sorry to your children and grand children for screwing up their lives because of your incompetence, irresponsibility and greed.
"i wouldnt be very proud for mothers that raised animals that did crimes against humanity"
that's why Greece has conflicts with any of their neighbors and needs military expanses beyond their means. The greeks are even too dump to buy ammunition for their tanks or to drive submarines.
Instead of writing nonsense, you should better go out and do your fakelaki stuff.
I don't quit get what you are saying except that you are looking for a reason not to repay your debt and receive transfer funds to close the gap between the life-style you can afford and the one you'd like to have. And that won't work.
Is there any reason why Greeks earn 3-4 times as miuch as Bulgarians and Romanians, even though they are not more productive?
THAT gap will close - inside or outside the euro. And no amount of debt relief will put Greece on a higher growth track, but only developing high-end products that it can sell to the world.
My German grand-parents were dirt-poor at the end of WWII, as well, btw. That's no excuse today.
its funny that you lecture me about me heritage.
The whole world knows about my heritage.
as i said but u keep ignoring greece needs to pay its debt.
Greeks didnt use their money correct but that would not make me less of a humans. Less of a humans for the germans was everybody else.
My haritage is not just the last 20 years. we ve been around for thousans of years.
"i wouldnt be very proud for mothers that raised animals that did crimes against humanity"
The people that killd my reatgrandma my pappou and my giagia i called them animals. if that makes me dump i dont care. thats how i feel for the murders of my family.
Nazi was german not greek.
life-style you can afford
Talking to me lets say i agree. my life style is wild. i cant afford it.
what life style my dad can afford?
Because as a kid, he couldnt go to school since germans destroyed it, got less of a good job since he had to work at the age of 6. since you took all his money burn his house and had to rebuilt the road he had to walk, the school he went to etc.
Let me know what he can affort so i can tell him.
But before you answer tell me where he would had been if he didnt have to live through that
No, Leofloros. Nobody expects that the Greece will pay back their debt and nobody expects a thank you or stupid things like that.
What everybody really expects is that people work on their problems.
Don't you think it's time to reflect what was going on in the last decades in your country and take responsibility for the mess. If you talk about the rich heritage of Greek culture I would expect it even more. Only pointing to your heritage of thousands of years will not help you.
Sorry for offending you as I honestly don't think fakalaki and so on is part of your culture. But I'm tired of reading that people are scapegoating others for own mistakes.
My family also suffered under the nazi regime, the war and russian occupation although they were no nazis.
Who should I accuse for that? The russians for behaving like animals? Americans for bombing and burning down cities of innocent women and children? The world is not black and white!
That's waht war is about, no matter if your guilty or not! And that's why we should avoid things like that!
i agree 100%
my point was and i wrote it 10 times.
it is hypocritical to be blamed from germans.
greece needs to pay debt and politician suck same as everywhere. no questions. im not anakyzing any reason or econmy,
im just saying it is hypocritical
that was all.
the rest were ugly arguments
Don't think you understand the situation in Germany. The EU/EMU is a political project for Germany and not a project to gain power over european countries. The WWII is the reason to build that project to integrate the european countries and to achieve wealth all over the member states.
Everybody in Germany knew from the beginning that this would be a extremely expansive project, but the very most people thought it is worth to support that idea. Germany paid billions not to say trillions over the past 60 years to achieve that. We contributed the EU, so the countries could benefit by these spendings, we shared the currency with others to make low interest rates and stable economies possible. The first years especially German workers suffered under common currency, because capital was transfered to southern countries and jobs were created there instead of Germany, EU contribution made it possible to build up brand new infrastructure while German roads and schools etc crumbled. -So, people are frustrated that some countries haven't used the opportunity to strengthens their economy. On the other hand we have seen that your politician don't reform the system, but pushing all the pressure on ordinary people ->lowering wages, starving while the rich p**ses of and transfer their money to other countries, ship owners still don't pay taxes and many things you know much better than me.
DOn't get me wrong, it's not a monologue about 'how good we are' but that you guys still have (maybe not all but) many chances to get out of the mess. So, don't accuse these Germans of being nazis but work on the problems and you'll receive all the help you'll need!!
Many offerings of help in different cases were rejected by Greek politicians so far...
I dont understand Germany and you dont understant Greece.
that is ok
Im not going to tell you what happened to greek economy or to german economy or to EU economy. Im not here to analyzie it.
What i said and again all Germans missing the point. is that Germany as a country got a loan from Greece and never paid it off. That loan was a fact not a estimate or fiction or whatever else
The point is that it is HYPOCRITICAL to pretent that greece owes money and if they give you the money back everything is perfect.
it is not like this.
I didnt accuse the todays germans to be nazi, but i did return the favor to people that where calling Greeks fat and lazy etc.
Im not going to seat here listening everybody swearing and making fun of the greeks takling down to greeks and not return the favor.
What will happen to Greece Germany and EU only time will tell.
wow wow wow, I will keep the above as argument in my future discussions with and about Greeks, I like especially the Russian quotes – from Stalin, Zhukov and Moscow radio – who produces that nonsense in Greece? And those percents! 1.8% for Poland when 6 million died out of 30, only and only to prove over glass of retsina that we , the Greeks are the bravest of all?!?!?
This is the best argument that there is something wrong with those people and you cant have normal discussion with them
"those people".. says the distinguished anthropologist..
Very comical!!!
If you decide to react on my comment read my comments first... you are in danger to be exposed.
"The whole world knows about my heritage."
And do you know whom you can thank for that ?
Read P.Watson's The German Genius ... Will enlighten you.
Comments and tweets on popular topics


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There are bargains to be had for vacations this summer, but the deals may not last. Scott McCartney joins the News Hub with a guide for summer travelers. Photo: Getty Images.
If you haven't booked your summer plans yet, brace yourself: There's actually good news this year, for a change. Airfares to many popular U.S. destinations have dropped.
Airline ticket prices for summer travel to Tampa, Fla., New York, Denver and Washington, D.C., have fallen, after steep increases for several consecutive years, according to Orbitz.com. The average ticket already purchased for summertime flights to Chicago is down more than 18% from the same period last year. Tickets bought for Honolulu are 10% cheaper than those bought during the same stretch of 2012. Lots of domestic destinations have seen soft demand and the biggest price drops have been in cities with more discount-carrier service than years before.
"A lot of big destinations are seeing double-digit price drops," said Jeanenne Tornatore, a travel analyst at Orbitz, the online ticket seller.
This good news comes as a surprise after several years of dramatic airline price increases, especially for holiday and vacation travel periods. High fuel prices have forced airlines to raise fares and fees, and consolidation and flight-schedule reductions have given them pricing power they didn't have before. In the second quarter last year, the average domestic airfare was up 28% from the April-to-June period in 2009.
Domestic travelers can thank fellow Americans who are dusting off their passports. In total, the number of tickets sold so far for summer is down for domestic trips, but sales have been up by an equal number of tickets to Europe, the Caribbean and Latin America, according to Airlines Reporting Corp., an Arlington, Va., company that processes tickets.
The greater shift to Europe "may be signaling some confidence in people's ability to spend more and travel farther," said Chuck Thackston, ARC's managing director of data and analytics.
The dollar is a bit stronger against the euro. Two years ago, one euro cost nearly $1.50. Now one euro costs about $1.30. With the U.S. economy rebounding and economies in some European countries struggling, U.S. travelers see opportunity and feel pent-up demand to travel farther than a drive to the beach after years of limiting their summer excursions.
Ireland is one European destination that's still a fare bargain. There will be, on average, an additional three flights a day between the U.S. and Ireland this summer, with the number of seats up 20% in that market. Aer Lingus, EIL1.DB -1.95% Aer Lingus Group PLC Ireland: Dublin €1.26 -0.03 -1.95% Dec. 12, 2013 4:30 pm Volume : 95,155 P/E Ratio 20.63 Market Cap €686.24 Million Dividend Yield 6.35% Rev. per Employee €399,561 More quote details and news » US Airways, American and United airlines have all added flights. That's in contrast to all of Europe, where trans-Atlantic flights are up just 2.8%, according to Airline/Aircraft Projects Inc., a consulting firm.
For travel over the first week of July, a search on Kayak.com showed nonstop round-trip tickets between New York and Dublin cost less than $1,100 on Aer Lingus and American, while the cheapest round-trip price to London from New York for the same dates was $1,263 on Virgin Atlantic and the best price to Paris from New York was $1,446 on United.
Of course, travelers long conditioned to pricing pessimism can expect some pain this summer, too: Hotel prices are up, travel bookings sites say. Hotel rates in Paris and in Napa Valley, Calif., for example, are up 37%, according to Orbitz. After very high occupancy last summer, hotels are raising prices early this year. Even tiny Cooperstown, N.Y., home of the National Baseball Hall of Fame, has hotels charging one-third more this year—even though baseball writers couldn't find a single retired great worthy of induction this summer who might draw devoted fans.
Fliers can find more deals flying to Miami or San Francisco than in past summers. But data show this summer's swings aren't evenly distributed: Big cities show the big drops.
Overall plane tickets for summer domestic trips sold so far are flat with last year, up just about a dollar to $490, according to ARC. The company checked nearly 4 million tickets sold at online and traditional travel agencies in February, March and the first part of April for travel between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
Expedia.com reports small increases in round-trip flights for June, July and August travel, domestic and international trips combined, but the increase is at a much slower rate than jumps of about 10% the previous two summers.
As usual, a spike in gas prices could curtail a lot of summer travel or prompt consumers to stay closer to home. A survey of Orbitz customers found that if gas prices creep back up above $4 a gallon, nearly one-third of consumers said they would scale back summer vacation plans. As is, a majority of customers said they plan to keep their summer vacation budget under $2,000.
The best advice this year may be to grab those cheaper summer airfare prices soon. They likely will rise with hot afternoon temperatures.
The ideal time to book domestic travel last year was 21 to 35 days before departure and within three months before departure for international travel, according to analysis from Kayak. But the pattern may be different this year. With more confidence in consumer spending, airlines and hotels may be quicker to jack up prices as summer nears, and consumers themselves may be more willing to pay higher prices.
"Leisure demand is running strong for us," said Doug Parker, chief executive of US Airways.
Airline executives like Mr. Parker say they still expect a busy summer with full planes and higher prices.
Write to Scott McCartney at firstname.lastname@example.com

subset: commoncrawl


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How to Wear
How to Wear
Miss Me Easy Skinny Stretch Jean
$99.00 Item #57030JE5760ES- Mid-rise zip fly stretch jean
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Miss Me Easy Skinny Stretch Jean 2 2
Love Miss Me Jeans I don't care too much for skinny jeans, but once I tried on these pair of jeans they don't fit like skinny jeans. The only thing that botherd me was the first time I wore them and before I left the house a couple of stones came off. January 22, 2013
Missmefan Love these jeans! Wish they were longer & came in 33" length. They run slightly big. I could have gone down a size but they are comfy. I prefer them tucked in my tall boots as I prefer skinny's to bunch at the Ankle, I think they are more slimming when they bunch but these come right to my ankle with no bunch. I am 5'7" December 13, 2012
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Food for Men (30+) - Gifts for the Fitness & Health Nut
Gift Buzz
Inspire any home chef with these creative Do-it-Yourself food kits. Anyone can learn how to make cheese, jam, tea, craft beer, and show off their new culinary skills! Read More »
Libras won�t care if a gift is expensive, but you should choose something well-designed or beautiful like an elegant pair of cufflinks. They�ll also love experiences that they can share with you or another friend like a wine tasting class... Read More »
After perusing literally acres of the newest consumer electronics at CES, you start to see clear themes and trends as to where tech is heading.And while the latest 4KTVs and some of the more fun and gimmicky products (hello iPotty!) get a... Read More »
Today is one of our favorite trade shows that comes to NYC's Jacob Javits Center. That's saying something because we go to a lot of trade shows, and I mean A LOT! So what's all the hub-bub about already? The Summer Fancy Food Show! This show... Read More »
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The Gift Gurus at Gifts.com hand-pick all gift ideas for men (30+) in the food category. View great ideas for men (30+) from the best stores online and further refine your food results by price, Gift Guru top picks and more to find the perfect gift. Need help finding great gift ideas? Gifts.com is your ultimate source of expert gift advice, ideas and inspiration. Starting your holiday shopping? Find great Christmas gifts for everyone on your list.


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MANITOU SPRINGS, COLO. -- A body was found under a trailer in Manitou Springs Monday afternoon.
Manitou Springs Police officers received a 911 call around 12:30 p.m. from a man who had just found the body in a trailer park on El Paso Boulevard.
Due to the seriousness of the situation, Manitou P.D. called in the El Paso County Sheriff's Office which has since taken over the investigation.
"We were cleaning under the trailer, and we saw what appeared to be a quilt with junk it in," Bob Derge said.
Derge found the body while working and said when he reached under the trailer to grab the quilt, he saw some hair and assumed it was an animal.
"I thought I had better get another look, so I went around to the other side, and sure enough I saw an ear and some flesh," Derge said.
Realizing he had found human remains, Derge said he immediately called police.
"From what I know, the guy that was in there was arrested for something earlier this year," Derge said. "We were cleaning up after him because he moved out, and that is what we found."
Few details have been released, including the gender and identity of the body, the cause of death and how long he or she has been dead.
"I am thinking winter, the body freezing and being wrapped in something, it was preserved," Derge said.
Derge said he has seen some strange things is his lifetime, but added he never expected in a million years to stumble upon a body.
"You are not expecting it, I mean I am thinking I am grabbing a blanket full of trash and all of a sudden you pull it back and it is like, wow," he said.


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Product Features:
- Oval basin couples functionality with aesthetic appeal
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- Gently sloping walls descend to a precisely squared bottom
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- Wading Pool / Above Counter Vessel Sinks: Designed to accentuate the movement of water. Above Counter Vessel sinks are a freestanding basin that sits on the counter, as opposed to within; to create a dramatic centerpiece for any bathroom.
- Enameled Cast-Iron: Kohler Enameled Cast-Iron combines the strength, durability, and insulation benefits of cast-iron with the scratch, chip, and burn resistance of a baked, powder coat finish and comes with an exceptional Lifetime Limited Warranty. These materials combined give the sink or tub the strength to last a lifetime of use. Another benefit is that Kohler Enameled Cast-Iron is available in a wide variety of specialty colors to truly customize your home.
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- Height: 6-1/2" (measured from the bottom of sink to the top of the rim)
- Overall Width: 16-1/2" (measured from the back outer rim to the front outer rim)
- Overall Length: 20-1/4" (measured from the left outer rim to the right outer rim)
- Basin Width: 14-3/4" (measured from the back inner rim to the front inner rim)
- Basin Length: 18-3/4" (measured from the left inner rim to the right inner rim)
- Basin Depth: 4-9/16" (measured from the center of basin to the rim)
- Installation Type: Vessel
- Number of Faucet Holes: 0
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Additional Kohler Links
- View Manufacturer Warranty
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Our SKU: Kohler K-2390
This product is listed under the following manufacturer number(s):
- Kohler K-2390-47
Almond - Kohler K-2390-ft
Basalt - Kohler K-2390-96*
Biscuit - Kohler K-2390-7
Black Black - Kohler K-2390-ka
Black n Tan - Kohler K-2390-fd
Cane Sugar - Kohler K-2390-k4
Cashmere - Kohler K-2390-NY
Dune - Kohler K-2390-rr
Ember - Kohler K-2390-fe
Frost - Kohler K-2390-95
Ice Grey - Kohler K-2390-33
Mexican Sand - Kohler K-2390-g9
Sandbar - Kohler K-2390-ff
Sea Salt - Kohler K-2390-58
Thunder Grey - Kohler K-2390-kc
Vapour Blue - Kohler K-2390-kg
Vapour Green - Kohler K-2390-kd*
Vapour Indigo - Kohler K-2390-ke
Vapour Orange - Kohler K-2390-kf
Vapour Pink - Kohler K-2390-0*
*Denotes a finish or option that has been discontinued
Product Specifications
Installation Guide | |
Specification Sheet | |
ADA | Yes |
Basin Depth | 4.563 |
Basin Length | 18.75 |
Basin Width | 14.75 |
Country Of Origin | USA |
Drain Assembly Included | No |
Drain Connection | 1.75 |
Drain Placement | Center |
Faucet Holes | 0 |
Faucet Included | No |
Height | 6.5 |
Installation Type | Vessel |
Length | 20.25 |
Made in America | Yes |
Material | Cast Iron |
Number Of Basins | 1 |
Overflow | No |
Sink Shape | Oval |
Theme | Traditional |
Width | 16.5 |


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Design for exposed sites: NORD's Shingle House
[Technical& Practice] NORD's Shingle House responds to building on Britain's only desert, and is inspired by the site's poetic qualities, writes Felix Mara. Photography by Charles Hosea
Subscribe to the AJ from £3 per week
For less than the cost of a pint you can have the magazine, iPad edition, full access to TheAJ.co.uk and the amazing AJBuildingsLibrary.co.uk. Subscribe now and experience architecture from a British perspective. The AJ - it's your journal.


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CDC Live in Dubai 2012!!
31 May 2012 – American Hardcore CDC perfromed at Cheers Bar at The Lodge.
Check the following sites for more info, http://www.facebook.com/CDCHC and http://www.myspace.com/cdc.
An event by Rock Nation!!
More photos after the jump!
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June 1, 2012 | Categories: Concert Photography | Tags: Brendan Hagey, Brooke Schwartz, CDC, CDC Live in Dubai 2012, Cheers Bar, John Bowes, roldanmacahiya, Sean Downing | Leave A Comment »