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As a newbie to multirotor flight, I decided that the use of an Ardustation and Xbee link would be the easiest way to set up the PID's.
Thanks to excellent after sales guidance by Martin ( BYOD ) the system is up and running on 0022.
During my practice attempts at tuning, I noticed the following on the Ardustation display:-
1. There was no access to the 'D' term in the PID's
2. Only 33 of 36 parameters downloaded.
3. The 'BR' reading in 'Flight Data' sits at a random number, and does not move. I take it this is the Bearing indication from the magnetometer?
Has anyone else got similar results to this, if so, are they normal?. If not, would an upgrade to the latest Ardustation download do the job.
Thanks for the prompt that the upgrade is available. I have (I think) managed to carry out the setup to add the files to Martins folder. On connecting up the ardustation, and going through the procedure using ardu 1.0, I get a few seconds of a green bar showing 'compiling sketch'. Then comes the 'error compiling' with a short list of the problems.
I suspect the real error is that I have not carried out the initial download/unzip etc correctly.
So I will root through the forum again to see if I can find any other ways of approaching this.
Thanks for your help so far, the original 0022 is still running, so all is not lost.
One thought - when you unzip the Ardustation2 and libraries folders you want to make sure the new ones don't get copied to older folders that are already there. If the new library folder gets copied over the old one, you will get compilation errors. I would try deleting the existing Ardustation2 and library folder and then extract the zip again and see if that helps. Also you need to exit Arduino 1.0 each time you make a change to the library folder.
Thanks for the reply, that was very helpful. I deleted the Ardu2 and the library from Martin s folder, then downloaded ardustation2, unzipped and put the 2 files in, went through the setup, sketchbook, checked board and comm port correct, and uploaded.
Sadly, despite my hopes, this time I got 'Liquid Crystal' does not name a type. This is a new one. After several more tries, I found it would sometimes just give ' error compiling'.
I get the same results if I select 0022 or 0023 or arduino 1.0. However, I only seem to get the' Liquid Crystal' one with Adu 1.0.
I must be making some error in the procedure, that is of course assuming I am downloading correctly.
That's enough for today, I think I have square eyes.
Thanks a lot
After much head scratching, and a chat with Martin at BYOD uk, I managed to put it together, and all 42 parameters now load, and can be changed over the xbee link ok.
However, there still seem to be no D terms, although you mentioned that all PID's would be present.
Have I missed something?
I missed the stabilize_d and stabilize_d_schedule terms - i think these are the ones you're referring to. I'll release a 2.0.13 with these terms added for Arducopter.
Hopefully that will fix you up. I'll have the new version out in an hour or so.
Version 2.0.13 is now available. It now has 47 parameters including stab_d and stab_d_s.
Heino, Thanks for the very prompt response to my query.
Just got back home and downloaded the release 13. I was able to go through the whole business with no problem and use it. A huge step forward at this end.
However ( there usually is a' however' unfortunately) I have no idea what the stab_d_S is. It appears to load to the quad ok, as it returns when I 'get parameters' again. Checking the changes using the config pages in Mission Planner, I can find no trace of this term, none of the existing D terms have moved, other than the rate_d. During this the Ardustation box was switched off of course.
Looking at the config presentation, via the MPlanner, there are 7 D terms listed. These are
1. rate roll D
2. rate pitch D
3. stab pitch D This you have done and it works great.
4. rate yaw D
5. loiter D
6. nav WPoint D
7. Throttle rate D
Is it possible for the others to be done? Or maybe only the primary ones if space is short.
Thanks again for the work, the light is at last a little brighter at the end of the very long tunnel.
I think I now understand - those are Arduplane tuning parameters - those below are what would show up as parameters if the Ardustation detects an Arduplane (2.3.0) sending Mavlink data.
case 0: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RLL2SRV_P")); break; }
case 1: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RLL2SRV_I")); break; }
case 2: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RLL2SRV_D")); break; }
case 3: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RLL2SRV_IMAX")); break; }
case 4: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("PTCH2SRV_P")); break; }
case 5: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("PTCH2SRV_I")); break; }
case 6: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("PTCH2SRV_D")); break; }
case 7: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("PTCH2SRV_IMAX")); break; }
case 8: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("YW2SRV_P")); break; }
case 9: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("YW2SRV_I")); break; }
case 10: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("YW2SRV_D")); break; }
case 11: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("YW2SRV_IMAX")); break; }
case 12: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HDNG2RLL_P")); break; }
case 13: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HDNG2RLL_I")); break; }
case 14: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HDNG2RLL_D")); break; }
case 15: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HDNG2RLL_IMAX")); break; }
case 16: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ARSP2PTCH_P")); break; }
case 17: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ARSP2PTCH_I")); break; }
case 18: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ARSP2PTCH_D")); break; }
case 19: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ARSP2PTCH_IMAX")); break; }
case 20: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ALT2PTCH_P")); break; }
case 21: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ALT2PTCH_I")); break; }
case 22: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ALT2PTCH_D")); break; }
case 23: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ALT2PTCH_IMAX")); break; }
case 24: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ENRGY2THR_P")); break; }
case 25: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ENRGY2THR_I")); break; }
case 26: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ENRGY2THR_D")); break; }
case 27: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ENRGY2THR_IMAX")); break; }
//Other Mix
case 28: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("KFF_PTCH2THR")); break; }
case 29: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("KFF_PTCHCOMP")); break; }
case 30: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("KFF_RDDRMIX")); break; }
case 31: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("KFF_THR2PTCH")); break; }
case 32: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("XTRK_GAIN_SC")); break; }
case 33: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("XTRK_ANGLE_CD")); break; }
case 34: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("SONAR_ENABLE")); break; }
case 35: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("MAG_ENABLE")); break; }
case 36: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ARSPD_ENABLE")); break; }
For Arducopter, these are the parameters:
case 0: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_RLL_P")); break; }
case 1: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_RLL_I")); break; }
case 2: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_RLL_IMAX")); break; }
case 3: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_PIT_P")); break; }
case 4: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_PIT_I")); break; }
case 5: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_PIT_IMAX")); break; }
case 6: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_YAW_P")); break; }
case 7: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_YAW_I")); break; }
case 8: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("RATE_YAW_IMAX")); break; }
case 9: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_RLL_P")); break; }
case 10: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_RLL_I")); break; }
case 11: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_RLL_IMAX")); break; }
case 12: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_PIT_P")); break; }
case 13: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_PIT_I")); break; }
case 14: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_PIT_IMAX")); break; }
case 15: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_YAW_P")); break; }
case 16: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_YAW_I")); break; }
case 17: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STB_YAW_IMAX")); break; }
case 18: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("CAM_P_G")); break; }
case 19: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("CAM_R_G")); break; }
case 20: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("WP_SPEED_MAX")); break; }
case 21: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LAT_P")); break; }
case 22: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LAT_I")); break; }
case 23: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LAT_IMAX")); break; }
case 24: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LON_P")); break; }
case 25: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LON_I")); break; }
case 26: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("NAV_LON_IMAX_")); break; }
case 27: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("THR_RATE_P")); break; }
case 28: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("THR_RATE_I")); break; }
case 29: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("THR_RATE_IMAX")); break; }
case 30: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LAT_P")); break; }
case 31: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LAT_I")); break; }
case 32: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LAT_IMAX")); break; }
case 33: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LON_P")); break; }
case 34: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LON_I")); break; }
case 35: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("HLD_LON_IMAX")); break; }
case 36: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LAT_P")); break; }
case 37: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LAT_I")); break; }
case 38: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LAT_IMAX")); break; }
case 39: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LON_P")); break; }
case 40: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LON_I")); break; }
case 41: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("LOITER_LON_IMAX")); break; }
case 42: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STAB_D")); break; }
case 43: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("STAB_D_S")); break; }
case 44: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("ACRO_P")); break; }
case 45: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("AXIS_P"));break; }
case 46: { strcpy_P(buffer, PSTR("AXIS_ENABLE"));break; }
I think you have the Mission Planner set to Arduplane mode instead of Arducopter. In Arducopter mode the parameters should map correctly.
Thanks for that reply. It leaves me a bit confused.
I have looked in to the arduplane for the first time this evening, and under the setup bits I can see the similarity to the above, so what you have sent looks to me like the plane version.
There is no doubt in my mind that I am using the arducopter2 mission planner, V1.1.69, and the firmware is Arducopter V 2.5.3 quad, set up for X form. Everything is done through the mission planner, as you probably realise I have not yet got my head around basic programming. The Ardustation is the first attempt.
The config page in the Mission Planner is as I would expect for a heli, and the ardustation, as far as I can tell, also shows the same names for the various config settings as the those viewed on the PC via the MP and the USB cable. There are one or two I am not certain about yet, not got there yet.
The quad has been flying pretty well, but I have had some vibration problems, and have been spending time sorting those out before seriously trying to fine tune the parameters. Never the less, it is pretty stable and handles pretty much like my large Gasser used to do before I got rid of it, nice and smooth, although yaw is, of course, not so precise.
I have been doing the setup on the usb cable on the pc, but outside ( largely in the garden ) I have been using the lap top over the Xbee link. The problem of course, is that in bright light it is hard to see the screen with my tired old eyes.
This is one of the reasons I went for the Ardustation, but found the lack of the D term a bit of a handicap, hence the request to have the D terms, as listed in the previous post, added to the ardustation.
I am getting the 47 parameters ok, presumably they would list 0 to 46. The D term (42) shows STAB_D. This term sets up from the ardustation box, over the Xbee, and show the change when I 'get parameters' again. Turning off the ardustation, and hooking the quad to the pc via the usb cable shows that this parameter has been changed
The next term 'STAB_D_S also appears to load ok, ( what is this one ?) and shows the change when I ask for 'get parameters' again. However, when I hook up the Quad to the PC with the USB cable, and with the ardustation switched off, there is no sign that any change to the 7 D parameters has occured. Very puzzling, as it seems to be going somewhere.
The battery voltage seems to work fine, at the moment it shows about 0.4 volt under read, but I have not finally set up the resistor on the main board.
I hope I have not made any mistakes in this ramble, I have been checking as I go along to confirm the findings, but at this time of night it easy to miss something.
By the way, it just occured to me, are you saying that the D terms I am after are actually in the latest revision? If so, despite all my assurances to the contrary, maybe I am in error. Could I have downloaded the wrong revision? I did click on the ardustation ii reference you gave a couple of posts back and took the .13. ( this afternoon in fact) and also deleted the ArduStation2 and libraries from the folder before I opened the new one. The fact that I have 47 parameters ( I counted them ) seems to confirm this.
So, at the moment I am still hoping to get ( or find ) the remaining D parameters
Sorry about that but you are right - I'm trying to add the remaining D terms. Since I've used a standard frame I've only had to tune Loiter/Nav parameters, but as I looked at the Arducopter code to update the parameters, I just missed the D terms. I'm adding the missing terms now and I think there is enough room to add them.
Great news, I was quite worried for a while. Look forward to the revision
Thanks again
It took a while but I finally have a 2.0.14 for Mavlink 0.9 release that I will upload tomorrow. I found a nasty parameter update bug that took me several weeks to figure out and I'm also working on releasing the first Mavlink 1.0 version. I have all the missing parameters working now (51 parameters total) and hopefully this will fix you up. Sorry it took so long.
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Australia v England, 3rd Test, Perth
England round up Australian tail
Dec 14, 2013: England rounded up Australia's tail on the second morning of the third Ashes Test on a noticeably quickening WACA Ground pitch
Australia v England, 3rd Test, Perth
Smith stands up with hugely significant innings
Dec 13, 2013: Few expected Australia to reach Perth with a chance to claim the Ashes in the third Test. Fewer still would have predicted that the author of a pivotal innings in that match would be Steve Smith
The Ashes 2013-14
Bresnan likely to play in Adelaide
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Bresnan haul points to fitness return
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England news
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Nov 17, 2013: England's bowling coach, David Saker, has suggested that England have made up their minds over the troublesome third seamer slot for the first Ashes Test
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Nov 16, 2013: England will miss Tim Bresnan enormously at the start of the Ashes series and his replacement will be targeted by Australia's batsmen, according to Ed Cowan
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Jul 24
First Regional Skill Share Seminar (RSSS1) took place in Struga (Macedonia) from 13 till 15 June 2008. Representatives from all 18 NGOs, trainers, local coordinators, coordinator of Green Agenda Macedonia platform and Milieukontakt team were present.
During this seminar perticipants presented their communities and NGOs, updated each other on Green Agenda activities in their communities, discussed urgent and important issues (during the Open Space sessions), participated in fundraising training and made action plans of national and regional activities.
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Here's how RW members rated this race (6 votes).
In short: Last 4 miles were sooooooooo tough!!!!In full: Was cruising at 9.5 miles then hit the muddiest of hills with the wind trying to blow you back down, my slowest ever last few miles to a race & getting back to the finish with people all walking across in front of the finish line & not members of the public but people involved with the race, one of whom i had to swerve to avoid 5 yards from the line after he walked right in front of me & then no medal or t shirt or bag or anything as they had ran out-PANTS!Date of review: February 11, 2013
In short: Very Very tough in muddy sectionsIn full: Well organised nice country run apart from 2 very muddy sections that made it very difficult. Very nice food at end will be back next yearDate of review: February 10, 2013
In short: Great food at the finish included in generous entry fee.Very well organisedIn full: Tough this year.Very muddy and weather not kind,but this did not detract from a great trail race that was definitely a bit of a challenge.Very well organised and marshaled.Very welcome food waiting for you at the finish.Will be back next year.Date of review: February 10, 2013
In short: great Little known raceIn full: A slight error from the off meant the racing snakes at the front missed the second turn and had to double back. Slippery in places and some paths added some nice weighty mud to you shoes. But overall a very good race and thoroughly enjoyable. Date of review: February 20, 2012
In short: Very enjoyable trail race. Great views. Friendly and well organised race for its debut. Will be back next year!In full: Enjoyable course with great scenery. Challenging at times with the multi terrain. Couple of steep hills towards the end. For its debut year it has great potential to be a big and popular race which I would recommend to put on your calendar. Have to mention all the great food which is waiting for you at the finish line.Date of review: February 19, 2012
In short: very enjoyable trail race.In full: Good value,enjoyed soup,cakes and hot dog at finish.Everybody very friendly and welcoming.The first half of the race was easy,the second more challenging,but overall,very enjoyable race.Thank you for organising,and hope to be back next year.Date of review: February 19, 2012


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This motel is located in Portland (Convention Center - Rose Quarter), close to Imago Theater, Rose Quarter, and Memorial Coliseum. Also nearby are Tom McCall Waterfront Park and Oregon Museum of Science and Industry.
In addition to complimentary wireless Internet access, Eastside Lodge provides free parking, a 24-hour front desk, and a safe deposit box at the front desk.
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The preferred airport for Eastside Lodge is Portland, OR (PDX-Portland Intl.) - 9 km / 5.6 mi.
Distances are calculated in a straight line from the property's location to the point of interest or airport and may not reflect actual travel distance.
Distances are displayed to the nearest 0.1 mile and kilometre.


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Imagine those factors mapped out as a triangle. Where would you fit inside its parameters?
Secondary factors can also play a role in your decision:
- Weather expectations
- Design features
- Ease of setup
Once you compare your preferences to these factors, you can narrow your choices.
Are you a car camper rather than a backpacker? See the REI Expert Advice article on How to Choose a Family Camping Tent.
A Quick Guide to Backpacking Tents
Backpacking tents are categorized at REI according to:
- Sleeping capacity
- Weather-readiness (seasonality)
Here are some questions to ask yourself:
Space: How many people will usually sleep in the tent?
A: Backpacking tents are categorized by their per-person capacity: 1-person (solo), 2-person, 3-person and 4-person. Tent names often include a number (the Big Agnes Seedhouse SL 2, the REI Half Dome 2) that indicate their maximum capacity.
To keep weight low, tents are usually designed to fit snugly. The resulting space is often a little more compact than many people prefer. A snug space often suits cozy couples just fine, though we find that 2 larger people typically wake up friendlier if they spent the night in a 3-person tent or a roomy 2-person model. Backpacking with a dog or a small child? Generally it's a good idea to go plus-1 with your capacity choice.
If possible, visit an REI store and examine tents in person. Often stores have several tents already set up so you hop inside and judge how well they match your size, your companions and your sleeping style. Usually REI staff can set up additional models for you to inspect. Evaluating tents in person is a superb way to shop for a backpacking tent.
Weight: What is a desirable weight for a backpacking tent?
A: Solo tents range between 2 and 3 pounds. Two-person tents commonly range from 3 to 5 pounds, but may reach up to 6 or drop almost to 2. Aim for a per-person weight of less than 3 pounds. Getting close to 2, or even less, is excellent. Realize, though, that a low per-person weight usually results in a snug interior.
Price: What can I expect to pay for a quality backpacking tent?
A: Two-person tents range from $100 to $500; the majority are priced near the middle of that range. A higher price tag usually buys you extra refinements and lower weight. If you backpack infrequently, aim for the lower end of that range. The REI Half Dome 2, REI's best-selling tent, sells for under $200.
Weather: What are the conditions I expect to encounter?
A: Most backpackers choose a 3-season tent, meaning it's suitable for the moderate weather of spring, summer and fall. If you often camp in warm or humid conditions, search out tents with lots of ventilating mesh panels. Several tents have canopies (upper sections) that use 100% mesh. Mesh panels are nice for stargazing on mild nights when a rainfly is not needed.
Often face chilly, windy nights? You are a candidate for an extended-season tent. Expecting to face sustained winds or planning to venture out in winter months? You'll need an expedition/mountaineering tent, also known as a 4-season tent. Learn more about these burly designs in the Extended-Season and 4-Season Tents section later in this article.
Overall, the wise move is to carry a tent equipped to handle the worst conditions you expect to encounter. Naturally, the feathery weights of summer-oriented tents are very appealing. But if you are planning a late-autumn trip at high elevation where snow and high winds are possibilities, you're better off equipping yourself with a more substantial tent engineered to withstand harsher conditions.
It is not unusual for serious backpackers to own 2 or more tents to suit the weather they expect to face.
Features: What "little things" matter most on a tent?
A: Two stand out:
- Doors. Very light tents often include a single door at the head end. That's fine, but many tents offer 2 doors in 2-person tents, giving each sleeper a separate entry and exit point so each individual can come and go as they please. Two doors are nice, for example, if your companion wants to turn in early while you want to make a late entrance after enjoying some stargazing.
- Vestibules. These are extendable sections of a tent's rainfly (requiring stakes and maybe a few guylines) that create a sheltered dry zone outside your tent for stashing footwear and other gear. Nearly all tents offer at least 1, though they vary in size by tent model. If vestibules are important to you, look for high square foot numbers in tent specifications.
Setup: How easy is it to pitch?
A: Most tents offer freestanding design, meaning a tent can stand without the use of stakes. This generally results in a fast setup. If the need arises, freestanding tents are simple to relocate—just lift them by their poles and carry them to a new spot.
In general, the more pole sections a tent includes, the more complex its setup might appear. After a couple of setups, though, the steps of erecting a backpacking tent become an automated, almost instinctive process.
Tip: Practice at home before your first trip. Any tent setup can appear challenging on the first try. It's easier to grasp not-immediately-obvious setup techniques when you're not pressured by a setting sun or approaching storm.
So there you have it; the basics of tent shopping. For first-time buyers, this might be all the information you need. If you're an experienced backpacker who may be looking to upgrade, read on as we take an in-depth look at the finer details of tent design and construction. Often the factors that distinguish one tent from another lie in the subtle details explained here.
Tent Size and "Livability"
Ideally, the interior of a backpacking tent should deliver "Goldilocks dimensions"—not too snug, not too roomy (since lots of room usually results in higher weight). The perfect tent should feel just right.
Sleeper Capacity
Here is a truism worth remembering: Not all 2-person tents (or 1- or 3- or 4-person tents) are created equal. No industry standard exists that defines per-person tent dimensions. So it's possible, even likely, that Brand X's interpretation of a 2-person tent may vary noticeably from Brand Z's.
Within the REI brand, the design standard for 2-person tents requires that a pair of 72" x 20" sleeping pads must fit side by side with no overlap. Most tents from top outdoor brands adhere to similar guidelines.
Of course, if you and a friend have ever hopped inside a 2-person tent and remarked, "Y'know, this seems a little tight," you are not alone. To keep weight low, backpacking tents use space-efficient designs that many times cause walls to slope steeply toward the crown of a tent. The weight-savings achieved are terrific, but sloping walls reduce sit-up space and can make a tent's interior feel cramped.
Yet most of the time people spend inside a tent is spent lying down. Does sit-up space really matter? It can if a storm confines you to your tent for a day or longer. During the time you're not snoozing, some extra room is a nice thing.
When evaluating tent capacity ratings, our general advice is this: Assume a close fit. If you seek more room, consider upsizing your tent capacity by 1 person, particularly if you or your usual tent companion(s):
- are large people
- are claustrophobic
- toss and turn at night
- sleep better with more than average elbow room
- are bringing a small child or a dog
Ready to shop? Our Tent Product Finder makes it easy. Find the tent that fits your needs right now.
Gauging Interior Volume
Typically, 3 specifications are provided by manufacturers to help shoppers mentally size up a tent's interior:
- Floor dimensions
- Floor area (square feet)
- Peak height
These specs, though, cannot help you gauge how a tent's walls are angled. The more vertical the walls, more "livable" space can be found inside a tent. The pitch of walls in each tent is different. Some tents are rounded and dome-like, offering more overall headroom; others are wedge-shaped, with minimal space at the foot end, where sit-up space is reduced but weight savings are gained.
How can you assess a tent's interior volume? Here are 3 options:
- Visit a store, ask to set up a tent and hop inside. That's always the best plan.
- If shopping online, eyeball a tent's photo and study the pitch of its walls. If the walls angle steeply toward the tent's ceiling, you're probably looking at a weight-efficient tent (great!) that offers only modest interior volume (the tradeoff).
- Use the 3 traditional tent specs mentioned previously to mentally size up a tent. Here are some details for doing so:
Floor dimensions: Tent floor plans show length and width measurements, usually in inches. Keep in mind that floor plans usually list only a tent's widest measurement—at the shoulder end of the tent.
Many tent floors are not rectangular. Some taper and become narrower at the foot end (a weight-saving technique). Some 3- or 4-pole designs create a floor that is hexagonal (wider in the hip area). The extra poles make hexagonal shapes (common in extended-season and 4-season tents) more stable but add weight.
Generally, 2-person tents measure somewhere in the mid-80s to upper-80s for length and mid-50s for width. Since standard sleeping pads are 20" wide, that gives 2 people about 14" to 15" inches of hip-to-hip wiggle room—not spacious, but adequate.
As for length, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that, as of 2002, the average American male stands 5'9½" (or 69.3 inches); the average female is 5'4" (63.8 inches). Most backpacking tents easily accommodate people of such heights.
Yet tall people—6' (72 inches/183 centimeters) and taller—may feel a little crunched inside tents that offer a fairly common length of 84 inches. Why? Because tent walls slope in at the foot and head of most tents. (This I know from personal experience; I'm 6' and too often find my noggin and toes grazing both ends of an 84" tent.)
Our advice for taller backpackers: Look for tents with floor lengths measuring at least in the high 80s or preferably 90 and beyond.
Taller backpackers should also take note of an encouraging trend: In 2010 REI introduced "Plus" versions of some of its most popular tents, adding a few inches in width and length to accommodate people with larger profiles. (The idea mimics the thinking behind regular and long sleeping bags; taller people appreciate some extra space.) Admittedly, weights will rise a few ounces, but a few inches of "plus" space can feel luxurious. Here is how floor plans of an REI Half Dome (standard and Plus versions) compare.
Floor area (square feet): Two tents may offer identical floor dimensions but claim different square footage. How can that be? The tent with the smaller floor area number most likely tapers more narrowly at the foot end.
A higher floor area number indicates it offers more floor-level space. (The same goes for the square footage shown for vestibule areas.) This number, however, does not account for the slope of the walls. So floor area is a useful number to know, but a less-than-perfect gauge of a tent's overall livability.
Peak height: Generally, the higher the peak height, the roomier the interior. Just realize that peak height is measured at a single spot inside a tent and does not depict the entire interior of a tent and its sloping walls.
Peak height in tents is determined by positioning a ball or sphere, 8" in diameter, at the highest point within the tent. (The technique, used industry-wide, was the brainchild of the REI Quality Assurance Lab.) The ball serves a stand-in for a camper's head, and peak height is measured from the top of the ball. Tents with pointy crowns may technically offer a higher absolute height, but the ball measurement offers a more realistic "functional" peak height.
A few tent-design footnotes: To minimize the slope of tent walls, REI was among the first tent manufacturers to make use of "combi-poles." Combi-poles feature pole sections of varying diameters. Thinner pole sections are used near the floor and support thicker upper sections which do not flex. This allows the tent's crown to flatten slightly and create more sit-up space and head room. Other tent-makers use pre-bent pole sections and brow poles to achieve a similar effect.
In 2007 REI introduced another space-expanding design feature, the tension truss, on selected tents. A tension truss is a fabric rib attached to a tent seam that, when tent poles are placed in position, makes the seam taut and optimizes the space it provides. It also strengthens a tent's overall architecture, reducing its "wobble" when shaken.
Tents and Seasonality
Three-season Tents
By far the most popular choice among backpackers, 3-season tents are lightweight shelters designed for the relatively temperate conditions of spring, summer and fall. They are usually equipped with ample mesh panels to boost air flow. Mesh panels keep out insects but can still let in powdery blowing sand. Properly pitched with a taut rainfly, 3-season tents can withstand downpours but are not the best choice for sustained exposure to harsh storms, violent winds or heavy snow.
The primary functions of 3-season tents:
- Keep you dry during rain or light snow.
- Shield you from bugs.
- Provide privacy.
Ready to shop? Our Tent Product Finder makes it easy. Find the right tent right now.
Extended-season Tents
Extended-season (3+ season) tents are engineered for prolonged 3-season usage, suitable for summer use but also trips in early spring and late fall when moderate snow may be encountered. Their goal: offer a balance of ventilation, strength and warmth-retention.
Typically they include 1 or 2 more poles and fewer mesh panels than pure 3-season models. This makes them sturdier and warmer than their 3-season cousins. Heavier, too, but not by huge amounts. Cousins of a vanishing breed known as convertible tents (with removable pole sections), extended-season tents are good choice for backpackers who make frequent trips to exposed, high-elevation destinations. While very sturdy, they are not as fully fortified for harsh winter weather as 4-season tents.
In this category, REI carries the REI Arete ASL 2, Arete ASL 3 (ASL: All-Season Light) and Cirque ASL 2. The Cirque offers 2 doors, the Aretes, 1.
Mountaineering/Expedition/4-season Tents
Engineered to withstand fierce winds and substantial snow loads, mountaineering tents can be used in any season. Their chief function, though, is to stand firm in the face of seriously inhospitable weather, principally in winter or above treeline.
They use more poles and heavier fabrics than 3-season tents and thus unavoidably weigh more. Their rounded dome designs eliminate flat roof spaces where snow can collect. They offer few mesh panels and rainflys that extend close to the ground. This hinders ventilation and can make them feel warm and stuffy in mild weather. But when foul winds begin to howl, a 4-season tent provides a reassuring place of refuge.
Minimalist Tents and Shelters
Minimalists, that small but earnest coterie of serious ounce-counting wilderness travelers, can choose from several options:
Ultralight (UL) Tents
Ultralight tents achieve their low weight primarily through the use of lightweight fabrics. (See the Fabrics section later in this article for a more detailed discussion of fabric weights.) Like other ultralight items, a UL tent is special-care gear that requires conscientious treatment by its owner.
Care must be taken when selecting a campsite, for instance. If a site is rocky, rooty or littered with barbed pinecones, any potential fabric-gouging material must be avoided or cleared away. Otherwise, seek a different site.
Even mesh used for UL tents has become downright wispy—fantastic for minimizing weight, but care must be taken to avoid snagging or strafing the material. Footprints (ground sheets) are usually a wise addition to any UL tent to protect lightweight floor materials. But that means carrying a few more ounces in your pack.
Pros: Low weight, less space occupied in a pack.
Cons: Relatively delicate when compared to 3-season tents.
Shop REI's selection of ultralight tents.
Single-wall (SW) Tents
The vast majority of tents are double-wall designs—a main tent body (with a waterproof floor and a breathable canopy) that, when needed, is covered with a removable rainfly.
Single-wall tents are primarily used by alpine climbers and are designed to shed snow more so than rain. Their walls are constructed of waterproof/breathable fabrics (often Gore-Tex or eVent) and thus do not need a rainfly. They seal tightly in cold, snowy weather and use vapor pressure to force out condensation.
Pros: Lighter than traditional double-wall tents.
Cons: Can be stuffy, especially if used in mild conditions.
Search REI.com for Bibler tents or the Marmot Alpinist 2.
Bivy Sacks
A bivy is a waterproof, breathable barrier for your sleeping bag—a low-profile setup where you and your bag are the banana and the bivy is the peel. A bivy consists of a waterproof floor and a waterproof/breathable upper layer—the same strategy used in single-wall tents, just in a smaller, tighter package.
"Bivy sack" is short for bivouac sack. Bivies were initially made popular by climbers, and minimalist backpackers later embraced them. Some models are basic sacks with nothing more than a face hole; others offer some fully enclosed, pole-supported head space with mesh netting to separate you from bugs.
As long as you don't mind sleeping in what can feel like a confined space, bivies are excellent weight-savers. Their chief downside: no sit-up space. It is challenging (some would say close to impossible) to change clothes inside a bivy. So, if insects are troublesome and you want to change into or strip down to sleeping attire, you will be exposed to bugs as you peel off clothing before you slip into your bivy.
Pros: Saves space and weight.
Cons: Can feel confining; on models without netting, user is vulnerable to bugs.
Shop REI's selection of bivy sacks.
Tarp Shelters, Floorless Tents and Tarps
Tarps are simple rain shields for minimalists—a sheet of fabric strung to trees or sometimes trekking poles. Floorless tents (almost always single-wall types, often in the shape of a pyramid) are used primarily by snow campers.
Pros: Few options are lighter or more compact.
Cons: Users are vulnerable to bugs; not ideal for harsh or windy conditions.
Shop REI's selection of shelter tarps and floorless tents and tarps.
Backpacking hammocks are another minimalist favorite. Most models carried by REI suspend sleepers off the ground between fixed objects (usually trees). They feature tarp-like rainflys, bug netting and a clever, bottoms-up entry point. They are an acquired taste, but they are quite popular among converts.
Pros: Light and compact.
Cons: Setup requires a learning curve; so does sleeping in midair. Ideal dual-tree setup is not always easy to locate.
Shop REI's selection of hammocks.
Bug Shelters
Just bug netting and some poles; usually no floor.
Pros: Super light and compact.
Cons: For rain-free use only; must make sure netting of a bug shelter is tucked under you.
Shop REI's selection of bug shelters.
Tent Terminology
Here are details on a few widely used tent terms:
Minimum weight: Use this measurement for comparing tent weight. This is the total weight of the tent body, rainfly and poles only—the bare essentials. You will probably pack more tent-related gear (e.g., stakes, footprint) than just this, but this is the figure all manufacturers present as a tent's "trail weight." Often cited as an average weight, this measurement is supplied by each tent's manufacturer and is not independently verified by REI. Your particular tent's average minimum weight may vary slightly (by an ounce or 2) from the weight the manufacturer claims.
Packaged weight: The total weight of all tent components: body, rainfly, poles, stakes, stuff sack, pole sack, instructions and any other items a manufacturer ships with a tent from the factory. This figure is supplied by the tent's manufacturer.
Packed size: The amount of space a rolled tent will occupy in your pack. You can reduce this load by splitting up tent components with others in your group. For example, have someone else tote the poles or rainfly while you carry the canopy.
Vestibule: An extension of the rainfly that creates a covered storage area for boots, packs or any dusty or damp gear you prefer to keep outside your living space. Some tents offer a pair of vestibules, a nice convenience (though such a tent's ounce count will rise). A few tent brands offer optional vestibules that create even more space than standard ones.
Guypoints and guylines: A guypoint is a reinforced, patch-like area on the tent to which a guyline can be (or is permanently) attached. The guyline is then pulled taut and tied or looped to a stake. During rain, this keeps a wet rainfly from sagging onto the canopy. In wind, it can reduce a fly's proclivity to flap. Keeping a rainfly taut and separate from a canopy aids ventilation and reduces condensation buildup.
Some guylines include reflective materials. It's a nice bonus. It makes skinny guylines more visible while using your headlamp in camp at night, minimizing tripping mishaps.
Pockets: Interior stash spots for storing gear. Typically they are flat, envelope-like slots into which you slip gear you want close at hand: headlamp, glasses, watch, multitool. Some serve as stash spots for a tent's door—simply wad up the mesh door panel and stuff it into the nearby pocket. You'll find few (even zero) pockets inside weight-conscious ultralight tents.
"Perimeter-cut" and "bathtub" floors: Most backpacking tents are now designed with perimeter-cut floors, where waterproof floor sections (sidewalls and ground-touching panels) are separate pieces of fabric stitched together at the perimeter. Perimeter cuts are alternately known as a Catenary cut, a "cut-in" floor or a "taped insider" floor. The technique creates straight, taut edges along the tent's perimeter, optimizing floor space.
Bathtub floors have more rounded perimeter edges and, other than possible bottom-floor seams, have no stitch marks susceptible to leakage. Their downside: Bathtub floors can potentially curl up around you on all sides in a loose, baggy manner and reduce interior space.
Some REI tents feature a "hybrid" floor. The longer side seams feature a perimeter cut while seamless bathtub edges are used at the foot and head ends of the tents. REI's architecture creates a taut pitch even along the bathtub edges, boosting interior space.
Humans naturally exhale and radiate heat. On a chilly night inside an enclosed tent, the moisture in our breath can cause condensation to form on the underside of the tent's canopy and rainfly. If enough builds up, the moisture could pool into drops of water and start plopping on you and your bag. Not good. The antidote: increased ventilation.
Mesh Panels
Tents intended for milder conditions typically make ample use of mesh. Some lightweight tents, in fact, offer all-mesh canopies—a nice place to spend a balmy, starry night. If you consider yourself to be a fair-weather camper, look for tents with a substantial quantity of mesh in their canopies. They're usually a good choice.
To keep out speck-size pests such as no-see-ums and midges, the grid used in tent mesh (netting, really) is much finer, or denser, than what is found on household window and door screens. Thus it does not offer the same easy-breezy flow of a window screen, but it does much to alleviate any potential stuffiness inside a tent.
On cold nights, of course, sinking chilled air can more easily drift in through mesh. On those occasions your rainfly becomes a key warmth-retaining ally. It is estimated that using a rainfly can add up to 10 degrees of warmth inside a tent.
Vented Rainflys
Some rainflys (often on 4-season tents) are equipped with hooded vents (sometimes called chimney vents) that can be propped open to create a ventilation channel during unfavorable weather. This is particularly valuable in humid, rainy conditions and during still, icy winter nights.
Doors: 1 or 2?
Two doors make entering and exiting a tent much more convenient for a pair of backpackers. No crawling over your partner to come in or go out. Dual doors, usually mesh, also make cross-ventilation easier to achieve.
Two doors are also handy if the weather is bad and the wind is whipping; just choose the door away from the wind. The only downside: 2 doors, with their zippers, can make a tent a few ounces heavier than a single-door model.
Setup Features
Freestanding Architecture
Most backpacking tents are freestanding, meaning the pole-supported canopy can stand on its own—stakes not required (although it's still wise to use stakes at windy sites).
The key advantage: A freestanding tent is easy to move if you need to adjust its position. If the ground is hard but wind is low, for instance, you can skip the task of driving stakes into unreceptive soil. It is recommended, though, that stakes be used if at all possible. This keeps a tent in place in case an unexpected gust of wind blows through your camp.
Another nice feature of freestanding tents: When breaking camp, you can just pick up a freestanding tent, point an open door at the ground and shake out any debris that migrated inside. Very handy.
A note on pole configurations: The simplest dome design involves 2 criss-crossing poles that attach at each of a tent's 4 corners. More advanced designs, aiming to add strength or expand interior space, may include poles with junction hubs, pre-bent pole sections or an extra pole. Such tents may require a slightly longer learning curve to master their setup, but they reward you with greater strength or more interior space.
Pole Sleeves vs. Pole Clips
Poles connect to canopies via clips, sleeves or a combination of the 2.
Pole sleeves help distribute fabric tension over a larger area and thus create less overall stress. Sleeves provide a stronger pitch, but sometimes (particularly during rain) threading poles through them can be a challenge.
Pole clips are easy to attach and usually allow a larger gap between the rainfly and tent body. This improves ventilation and minimizes condensation. Clips are often employed to reduce a tent's weight.
Pole hubs are a recent innovation that pre-connects 2 or more poles for added stability and faster setups. Most often used in conjunction with pole clips, hubs boost strength while creating simpler-to-understand pole structure.
In virtually every case, a tent with fewer poles is lighter and is faster and easier to pitch.
More terminology: The tips on the ends of poles are known as ferrules. Ferrules are inserted into metal rings (known as grommets) found in webbing tabs at the corners (and often midpoints) of tents.
Some REI tents offer a few dead-end pole sleeves instead of grommets. They are a small, slide-in pocket, or slot, for pole tips. They speed setups.
Fly/Footprint Option
Some tents accommodate an ultralight "fastpacking" setup where the footprint, pole structure and rainfly can be pitched together without the tent canopy. This setup is basically a structured tarp. As with tarps, you save weight but lose the bug protection of a tent body.
Manufacturers include stakes of their own design with tents; shoppers are not offered a choice. Some are skinny, push-in probes, some have a corkscrew-like skewer pattern on their shafts and others are stouter, pound-in pegs. If you prefer one style over the type included with your tent, a separate purchase will be needed. You know you're a hardcore camper when you and your companions sit around camp and discuss each another's preference in tent stakes.
If you regularly camp in snow or on sandy surfaces, you need snow stakes: wide, scoop-shaped stakes that hold their position by collecting and holding a dense amount of loose material in their scooped-out cores.
Tip: When camping on hard, rocky ground, tie cords (or fishing line, even dental floss) around rocks and attach them to the exterior webbing at each tent corner. Leave about 1 foot of cord between the rock and the webbing. Then place a second rock (and a third and fourth, if needed) atop the cord. The second rock pushes the cord to ground level and adds weight and friction for security. No cord? Find some smooth rocks and gently place them atop each tent corner.
Poles and Fabrics
Pole Materials
Most backpacking tents use aluminum poles due to their high strength-to-weight and durability. Fiberglass poles tend to be heavier and are susceptible to splintering when repeatedly arced over time.
Over the years aluminum tent poles have maintained strength while engineers have found ways to reduce weight by shrinking pole diameter and wall thickness. Most tents (including REI-brand tents) use poles manufactured by Dongah Aluminum Corp. (DAC) of Korea.
The following pole types are commonly found in top-brand backpacking tents:
DAC Featherlite NSL: A widely used pole valued for its high strength-to-weight ratio. The original Featherlite pole, introduced in 1997, was an instant hit with tent-makers. It was engineered with thinner walls and pole-to-pole junction points that replaced inserts with extruded pole ends. Pole sets weighed about 15 percent less than traditional aluminum poles.
The poles, however, did not slip through pole sleeves as well as some users wished, so DAC in 2000 introduced modified Featherlite SL poles (SL standing for "sleeve," not "Super Light," as was commonly assumed).
The latest version is Featherlite NSL ("new sleeve"), which uses aluminum inserts to connect pole sections. Rather than glue or crimp the inserts in place, DAC mechanically expands the insert into pole ends. DAC says this bonding process makes pole junction points 20% stronger than the main pole tubes, permitting the use of thin (though strong) tube walls.
DAC also uses a "green anodizing" process on its NSL poles. (Anodized aluminum is more durable and resistant to corrosion.) DAC's anodizing eliminates a polishing stage that required the use of phosphoric and nitric acid, both toxic.
Yunan Air Hercules: Features an aluminum/scandium alloy and a "floating connector" that joins pole sections. Both are intended to provide strength and flex at a low weight. Found in Mountain Hardwear's Atlas Pole System.
6000-series aluminum: Aluminum is available in various grades, from a 1000 series through 9000. Aluminum uses alloys to make it heat-treatable. In 6000-series aluminum (6061 being commonly used in tent poles), the alloys are silicon and magnesium, resulting in medium strength and good corrosion resistance.
7000-series aluminum: Zinc is the major alloying element in this series, which includes poles identified as 7075. Small amounts of magnesium are also used in 7000-series poles, creating a strong, kink-resistant, high grade of lightweight aluminum commonly used in aircraft. 7000-series poles will flex further than 6000-series poles (of the same diameter) before they bend or break.
The latest DAC Featherlite NSL poles in the 7000-series are composed of a proprietary alloy known as TH72M. DAC created it to boost the poles' resistance to what is known in the aluminum industry as stress corrosion cracking (SCC), a key foe of high-strength aluminum.
Note: Manufacturers often include a repair sleeve with a tent's pole set. It's a short tube with a slightly larger diameter than the poles. It acts as a splint on a bent or broken pole section. If available, use duct tape to secure the sleeve in place.
Nylon and polyester are standard tent fabrics. Nylon is fractionally lighter, tougher and more abrasion-resistant. Polyester is inherently more resistant to water and has a reputation for better withstanding degradation caused by ultraviolet rays in sunlight (though no study has verified polyester's UV resistance). Thus polyester is commonly used for rainflys.
The weight of tent fabrics is expressed in denier (D), a measurement of a yarn's weight (in grams) based on a 9,000-meter (5.6-mile) length of that yarn. (Why this length is used is a mystery to us.) Higher numbers indicate coarser, more rugged fabric; lower numbers reflect a lighter, finer material.
A common tent floor fabric is 70-denier (70D) nylon—light but relatively durable. Standard canopies range from 40D to 70D. In the endless quest to deliver lighter tents, though, some canopies dip as low as 20D and floors to 30D.
Ripstop nylon (woven with a doubled thread at regular intervals; it prevents rips from spreading) is often used in tent canopies. It is a touch lighter than taffeta nylon (a common, high-durability floor material) and gets used for floors in low-weight tents.
As stated earlier, the weight reduction of such lightweight engineering is fantastic, but using such feathery fabrics requires users to take extra precautions to minimize (or avoid) highly abrasive use. As a result, backpackers who don't carry footprints (ground cloths) with standard tents often choose to tote the footprints of ultralight tents.
Coatings: Tent floors and rainflys come with a waterproof coating (commonly polyurethane) applied to their interiors. Tent manufacturers sometimes apply a coating to the exterior of a rainfly or occasionally coat both sides.
Ultralight tents use low-denier fabrics in floors and rainflys to reduce weight. Often silicon is used to treat such fabrics for waterproofness. Polyurethane (PU) is a fractionally better waterproofing agent, but silicon boosts the tear strength of lightweight fabrics.
Some tents apply PU to one side of a rainfly and silicon to the other to get the optimal benefits of both coatings. Rainflys of the REI Quarter Dome, Arete and Cirque tents employ this 2-sided PU/silicon coating on 40-denier nylon. Other tent brands may use a lower-denier fabric in rainflys for ultralight tents. REI choose 40D nylon for its UL rainflys to enhance good abrasion resistance. Outside of the ultralight category, REI uses 75D polyester taffeta in its rainflys.
Technical footnote: Because nylon has the capacity to absorb some water, polyester is commonly used as rainfly material. Yet silicon-coated nylon resists the absorption of water equally as well as PU-coated polyester.
Nylon treated with silicon is often referred to as "silnylon." Silicon is also used to coat polyester.
Accessories and Other Considerations
A footprint is a custom-fitted ground cloth that goes under your tent floor (usually equipped with grommets that match the tent's pole placements. Tent floors are engineered to last, but twigs, pinecones, grit and dirt are constant abrasion threats.
Footprints buffer your floor from routine scuffing and scraping and can provide just enough of a protective layer to shield the floor from an overlooked sharp rock or stray thistle. A footprint costs less to replace or repair than a tent.
Footprints are sized to fit tent shapes exactly, so their edges do not extend beyond the main floor's perimeter, meaning they don't run the risk of catching and collecting rainwater like a generic ground cloth might. The chances that you'll wake up afloat in a soup bowl of rainwater soup are greatly reduced. Their downside? They add weight and take up pack space.
Footprints typically have a shiny (coated) side and dull (uncoated) side. You should place the dull side on the ground (shiny side facing up) in order to minimize abrasion on the coating.
Seams and Seam Sealer
A tent uses waterproof fabric in 2 places: the floor and rainfly. When panels of that fabric are sewn together, the stitching needle punctures tiny holes in the fabric. Because water can seep through those tiny seam holes, seams must be sealed to ensure a waterproof seal.
Nearly all top-brand backpacking tents today come with factory-taped seams and require no sealing. Some tents, however, may require a manual application of seam sealer. Examples: Some single-wall shelters that use eVent fabrics and lightweight silicon-treated fabrics. (Seam tape does not adhere to a silicon coating.) To be sure, refer to the tent instructions.
As a tent ages, seam tape may become frayed or abraded. If so, apply seam sealer to plug any tiny fissures that appear along seams. How to apply it? Clean the seam. Mask off both sides of a seam with adhesive tape. Using a small brush, thoroughly apply sealer (usually in a tube) on the seam. Dry according to instructions on the tube. Remove the masking tape.
Wind Resistance
If you often camp in areas prone to high winds, consider an extended-season or 4-season tent. The extra poles found in these models ordinarily reduce the shake and shimmy that a 3-season tent might exhibit in high-wind conditions.
No industry standards exist for wind resistance in backpacking tents, reports David Mydans, REI's longtime chief tent designer. Some tent-makers test their tents in wind tunnels (REI is among them, see the example above), but in general tunnel testing is rare.
Should tent color matter? Usually it only does if you become socked in by a storm and have to spend extended time inside your tent. Rainflys and canopies that use lighter, brighter colors tend to keep tent interiors brighter, something that can lift moods during extended tent stays.
Traditionally, rainflys have featured muted earthtones in order to remain unobtrusive and minimize visual impact on the surrounding scenery for other visitors.
Gear Lofts/Attics
A gear loft (often an optional item) is a mesh shelf that can be suspended from the tent's ceiling (usually via clips) and hold random gear. It can be a good out-of-the-way spot to place damp gear at night.
Quality Tents vs. Discount Tents
Why buy a brand-name tent when bargain tents are available at discount stores?
- Durability: Tents designed by quality-conscious brands use better materials (aluminum instead of fiberglass poles, for instance) and are built to withstand demanding use.
- Design: Bargain tents sometimes use coated fabric not just on the floor but high up the walls, drastically reducing breathability. (Think sauna.)
- Interior space: Efforts to boost wall verticality are rarely seen in bargain tents.
Tent Tips
- New to camping? Before buying your first tent, consider borrowing or renting one and take it out for a test-rest. See what you like and dislike about that model, giving you insights into what features are important to you.
- Ask friends what matters to them during their nights in a tent. Realize that you may have different priorities, but the insights of others can be helpful.
- Got a new tent? Practice setting it up at home before your first trip.
- When packing up, avoid repeatedly folding a tent along the same crease lines; creases can weaken the fabric.
- When breaking down tent poles to pack them for transport, make the first break in the center of a pole rather than starting at one end of the pole. Doing so lessens tension on the elastic cord connecting the sections.
- During extended stays, choose a shady spot to minimize UV exposure.
- Camping in snow? Build a snow wall on the windward side of your site and position the tent's door downwind—away from incoming wind.
- Never store a tent (or leave it tightly packed) when it's wet; the resulting mildew could ruin it. When not used for a long time, it's best to store a tent loosely, outside of its stuff sack.


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From Time's "Girls Kissing Girls: Explaining the Trend," today's winner of Worst Story Ever Of the Day.
Hey, Equality Myth, please commence destroying in 5, 4, 3, 2…
(via devingo)
Oh dear God. Is this for real?
15 Sep 2010 / Reblogged from devingo with 74 notes / girls girl on girl dumb stories


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I think it will be fun to look back each year & see how their ideas, thoughts & tastes have changed.
{Also included are photos from Kate's impromptu 4 year old photo shoot that we had the other day!}
(she had her 4 year well check this week)
Height: 39 inches (50th %)
Weight: 31 pounds (10th %)
Clothes: Mostly 3T {some 2T (skirts) & 4T (shirts)}
Shoe: 8
At 4 years old, Kate is only napping 1-2 times a week.
She is a terrible sleeper & still wakes up in the middle of the night.
(She sometimes has night terrors)
She goes to bed at 7:30 pm & wakes up around 7 am.
(Most nights she doesn't fall asleep until after 9pm)
Now, onto the Interview with Kate {age 4}
Favorite Number:
Favorite Letter:
Favorite Color:
2nd favorite is Pink.
Favorite Food:
Pineapple Pizza and Hot Dogs
Favorite Drink:
Chocolate Milk
Favorite Fruit:
Favorite Vegetable:
Favorite Snack:
Chocolate Goldfish
Favorite Treat:
Chocolate Milkshake
Favorite Dessert:
Chocolate Ice Cream
Favorite outfit:
Anything Purple. You need to get me more purple clothes.
Favorite thing to do at school:
Favorite thing to do at home:
Favorite thing to play with outside:
Ride my Bike
Favorite Book:
Where's the Poop
and Pinkalicous
Favorite Movie:
Cinderella, then Mary Poppins
Favorite TV Show:
Little Einsteins & Mickey Mouse Clubhouse
Favorite Animal:
Favorite place to visit:
Lake Tahoe
Who are your Best Friends:
Maddie, Nicole & my sister Claire
Favorite thing to do with Mommy:
Bake things like Cookies & Cupcakes
Favorite thing to do with Daddy:
Help him fix things that are broken & Going to his office
Favorite thing to do with Claire:
Play with the Dollhouse
What makes you happy?
My family & God. And chocolate.
What makes you sad?
That my friend Taylor moved to Boston. I miss her. I want to see her again.
What do you want to learn to do this year?
And, I want to take gymnastics.
What do you want to be when you grow up?
I don't want to grow up. I want to stay a little girl forever.
Me too, Kate, me too.


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Now I'm new here at XOJane, but if there's one thing I know, it's that we do not…
electoral politics
Mitt Romney's gay BFF resigns. Or maybe gets fired. So are gay Republicans gluttons for punishment or WHAT?
You know when you hear Rush Limbaugh on the radio, and you're like, "Who LISTENS to this guy?" I'm here to tell you that my father is a brilliant man who forces me to listen to conservative talk radio.


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Past news releases
Governor's office media room
Print-friendly version (PDF)
Seth Boffeli, Department of Health Services, (608) 266-1683 Brock Bergey, Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection, (608) 224-5007
MADISON—State officials are encouraging everyone to enjoy fireworks in a safe and responsible manner as they celebrate the Fourth of July.
"Fireworks are fun, but they can be very dangerous if used incorrectly," said Dr. Seth Foldy, State Health Officer. "Each year, there are many serious injuries such as burns, vision and hearing loss. These injuries could have been prevented by proper and safe use of fireworks."
In 2008, 13 Wisconsin residents were hospitalized and 82 visited emergency departments due to firework-related injuries. "The safest way to prevent these injuries is to leave fireworks displays to trained professionals," Foldy said.
"Children are especially vulnerable to these injuries," said Janet Jenkins, Administrator of the state Division of Trade and Consumer Protection. "Never give fireworks, even sparklers, to young children, she added. "Sparklers burn at temperatures of 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, and that's hot enough to cause third-degree burns."
Foldy noted that Wisconsin law regulates the use of fireworks. "Fireworks such as roman candles, firecrackers, bottle rockets, mortars -- anything that explodes or leaves the ground - can only be purchased and used with a permit issued by your local government," he said.
Non-explosive devices such as sparklers and cones do not require a permit, but that does not mean they can be used safely by children. A U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission report shows that children are more likely to be injured by fireworks during the month surrounding the Fourth of July. About half of the victims are under 15 years of age.
When using fireworks, follow these important safety tips:
For more information on Fireworks Safety, visit: http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/health/InjuryPrevention/Fireworks.htm
For information on the legal use of fireworks, visit: http://www.doj.state.wi.us/site/fireworks.asp
For more consumer information, or to file a consumer complaint, contact the Bureau of Consumer Protection on the web at www.datcp.state.wi.us; or call the toll-free hotline at 1-800-422-7128.
Editors: New national firework-related statistics will be released by the Consumer Product Safety Commission on Tuesday, June 29, 2010. Media kits will then be available for download on http://www.cpsc.gov.
# # #
Last Revised: July 12, 2010


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I did the benchmark, and the Disk benchmark says its 34,5 points.
With read and write under 4 and random seek under 2.
I have samsung hd502hj which i checked on this site actually gives 874 points.
I checked with Seatools (Samsung diagnostic utility) and no problems, also did defrag but the result remains the same.
Anyone have any idea what could be wrong?


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Enroll to Donate to PG&E's REACH Program
Yes, I want to help!
Please enroll me to donate to PG&E's REACH Program.
I pledge the amount shown below as my monthly donation with the understanding that my pledge will be itemized each month on my Pacific Gas and Electric Company bill and my donation will be forwarded to The Salvation Army to help those in need of energy assistance. I also understand that my monthly energy bill must be paid in full for my donation to be made.


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Supersize vs. Superskinny
If your familiar with the words obesity epidemic then you will be interested in the BBC documentary Supersize vs. Superskinny.Obesity is the weapon of mass destruction for today`s children. Or so some people like to say.
Some "journalists" want to point the finger at the parents, for their bad food choices, or allowing their kids to have fast food. What is the real problem?The obesity epidemic
This blog tackles the important issue of obesity. As most of us are aware obesity is on the rise in most countries and has become a real problem for Americans and Austrailians who have the highest obesity rates in the world.
Adult content and certain language are not permitted in premium blog posts.
Why? In order to fulfill our objective of helping you earn money, we have to abide by mobile carrier regulations.
In order to publish this post, please remove all offensive language and adult references, by modifying any yellow highlighted text. We apologize if our automated system flagged something it really shouldn't have.


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very nice condition, not sure why watch looks gold tone,it is all silver tone.75.00 see pics.call Rick @ 281-703-9173 Location: Magnolia,Tx it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests Posting ID: 3760327672 Posted: 2013-04-22, 6:51PM CDT Edited: 2013-04-22, 6:58PM CDT email to... back to original listing
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Google Search Masters 2009
Event details : http://www.indiasearchmasters.com/index.php
Google India Pvt. Ltd
No. 3, RMZ Infinity - Tower E
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If You need to know More about the the Google's Web Master Resources and how it can help build better Web Application,then this Read More →


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Roll up in style in this 1936 Chevy coupe with it's "Gambler" theme & custom mural work. This classic hot rod is no roll... More
1939 Chevrolet Master Deluxe Coupe, all steel, no rust, solid roadworthy, 350 w/350 Turbo automatic, aluminum radiator, Mustang II front suspension, Camaro rear with... More
A complete redesign from the 1939 Chevrolet, this Master Deluxe Business Coupe is the classic platform for the iconic American Hot Rod. As Chevrolet... More


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NYSE Euronext is in talks to sell itself to rival IntercontinentalExchange Inc. ICE -0.01% IntercontinentalExchange Group Inc. U.S.: NYSE $217.83 -0.02 -0.01% Dec. 12, 2013 9:02 pm Volume (Delayed 15m) : 1.40M AFTER HOURS $215.01 -2.82 -1.29% Dec. 12, 2013 11:50 pm Volume (Delayed 15m): 1.40M P/E Ratio 28.32 Market Cap $25.14 Billion Dividend Yield N/A Rev. per Employee $1,285,750 11/19/13 ICE Expects a Euronext IPO by ... 11/18/13 Corrections & Amplifications 11/18/13 Three Companies Weigh Bids for... More quote details and news » for about $8 billion, in a deal that would end more than two centuries of independence for the New York Stock Exchange, one of Wall Street's most enduring symbols of American capitalism.
Late Wednesday, the two companies were discussing a cash-and-stock transaction that would value NYSE at about $33 a share, people close to the talks said. The agreement could involve ICE buying NYSE Euronext and then selling its counterpart's stock-exchange businesses in France, the Netherlands, Belgium and Portugal, one of the people said.
An announcement could come as early as Thursday, the people said. A NYSE spokesman said Wednesday night that the company doesn't comment on rumors. An ICE spokeswoman declined to comment.
ICE is now bigger than NYSE Euronext, at least by market value. ICE's market capitalization stands at $9.3 billion, compared to NYSE Euronext's $5.8 billion. Above, traders on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange last month. Reuters
Exchanges have turned in recent years to mergers to help offset intense competition and the relentless decline in trading commissions they pocket from brokers and other market participants. Yet the deal-making appeared to reach its limit last year, when several large cross-border mergers failed amid regulators' concerns.
The discussions come about a year and a half after ICE last tried to acquire at least a piece of NYSE Euronext. ICE and Nasdaq OMX Group Inc. NDAQ +0.21% NASDAQ OMX Group Inc. U.S.: Nasdaq $38.79 +0.08 +0.21% Dec. 12, 2013 4:00 pm Volume (Delayed 15m) : 1.42M AFTER HOURS $38.79 0.00 0.00% Dec. 12, 2013 5:08 pm Volume (Delayed 15m): 31,073 P/E Ratio 19.49 Market Cap $6.49 Billion Dividend Yield 1.34% Rev. per Employee $1,243,020 12/12/13 Chicago Fed's Evans Backs Scru... 11/25/13 What's Pushing the Nasdaq Comp... 11/25/13 Eric Noll, Contender for Top S... More quote details and news » had proposed in April 2011 to buy NYSE Euronext for about $11 billion. As part of the offer, Atlanta-based ICE had looked to buy NYSE Euronext's derivatives businesses, while Nasdaq would have taken control of the stock exchanges.
That bid fell apart six weeks later after the U.S. Department of Justice warned it would reject the deal on antitrust grounds.
NYSE Euronext, which agreed to merge with Deutsche Börse AG DB1.XE -0.64% Deutsche Boerse AG Germany: Xetra €54.24 -0.35 -0.64% Dec. 12, 2013 5:35 pm Volume : 550,050 P/E Ratio 19.87 Market Cap €10.54 Billion Dividend Yield 3.87% Rev. per Employee €591,253 11/18/13 Three Companies Weigh Bids for... 10/07/13 Second Exchange Delays FX Mark... More quote details and news » before ICE and Nasdaq stepped in, had rejected the duo's unsolicited proposal twice. NYSE's deal with its German counterpart also was rejected by regulators.
A combination of ICE and NYSE Euronext would likely raise fewer regulatory concerns because the two exchange groups don't have as much direct overlap in the markets they run. ICE's main business lies in energy futures trading, a sector where NYSE Euronext has made few inroads. NYSE Euronext's own futures markets in the U.S. and Europe are largely geared toward financial derivatives linked to interest rates and stock indexes.
Unlike NYSE Euronext, ICE has steered clear of stocks and stock-options trading, preferring to focus on the more-profitable business of futures trading, where exchanges are able to control both the trading and processing of contracts.
NYSE Euronext's shares have fallen almost 32% since ICE and Nasdaq launched their joint bid last year. The shares are down nearly 8% this year.
The stock surged 24% to $29.80 in after-hours trading Wednesday after The Wall Street Journal reported the company's talks with ICE. Shares of ICE have climbed 6.4% in 2012, and rose another 1.2% in after-hours trading.
At $33 a share, ICE's offer for NYSE would represent a roughly 37% premium over Wednesday's market closing price of $24.05. Based on roughly 243 million outstanding NYSE shares, a $33-per-share price would value the company's equity at about $8 billion.
The New York Stock Exchange, or Big Board, was the U.S. stock market's dominant exchange for decades. The exchange began to draw significant competition with the 1990s emergence of all-electronic rival Nasdaq Stock Market, along with new rules that allowed shares to be traded more freely across multiple venues. NYSE's open-outcry auctions, held on its historic trading floor, were challenged by the faster, cheaper alternatives its electronic rivals could offer.
In 2005, the Big Board acquired electronic-trading company Archipelago Holdings Inc., transforming NYSE into a public company and reflecting the growing importance of computer-driven trading. Since then, the market has moved further away from exchanges and into private trading venues known as dark pools run by Wall Street banks and brokerage firms. The shift in trading volume has forced for-profit exchanges to look for new ways to make money and has fueled a series of merger attempts.
"NYSE clearly has had a challenging time," said Thomas Caldwell, chairman of Caldwell Investment Management Ltd., a Toronto-based firm that owns approximately two million NYSE Euronext shares. "There is a desire or possibly even a need to do some deal, after the failure with Deutsche Börse."
Indeed, the nation's oldest stock-exchange company now is negotiating a deal worth several billion dollars less than what ICE and Nasdaq had offered less than two years ago.
ICE, founded in 2000, has its roots in electronic commodity trading and runs the world's biggest energy futures market out of London, as well as smaller commodity markets in the U.S. and Canada. Surging demand for resources from developing countries like China and India has helped extend a prolonged rally in commodity prices. It also has helped fuel growth in commodities trading, buoying ICE's profits even as rivals such as CME Group Inc. CME +1.49% CME Group Inc. Cl A U.S.: Nasdaq $80.11 +1.18 +1.49% Dec. 12, 2013 4:00 pm Volume (Delayed 15m) : 1.35M AFTER HOURS $81.18 +1.07 +1.34% Dec. 12, 2013 7:08 pm Volume (Delayed 15m): 169,726 P/E Ratio N/A Market Cap $26.47 Billion Dividend Yield 2.25% Rev. per Employee $1,118,810 11/26/13 CME Group Agrees to Sell Nymex... 11/15/13 CME Says It Was Victim of 'Cyb... 11/07/13 The Daily Docket: Atlantic Clu... More quote details and news » and NYSE Euronext struggled with slowdowns in financial derivatives and stock-trading.
ICE is run by Jeffrey Sprecher, a former engineer who founded the company and remains its chief executive. Mr. Sprecher is known in the exchange business for his daring deal-making—and his uneven track record for completing those deals. He has bought several exchanges in the U.S. and the U.K. In 2001, ICE acquired the International Petroleum Exchange, home to most of the trading in Brent crude-oil contracts. After the deal, ICE's London-based exchange closed its trading floor.
But before his joint effort with Nasdaq OMX to acquire the Big Board, Mr. Sprecher had tried unsuccessfully to wrest the Chicago Board of Trade from its agreed-to merger with the Chicago Mercantile Exchange in 2007. Earlier this year, ICE lost a bid to acquire the London Metal Exchange.
Months after Nasdaq and ICE dropped their pursuit of NYSE Euronext, which drew some sharp critiques of the Big Board's management and board by Nasdaq and ICE, Mr. Sprecher spoke to NYSE Euronext Chief Executive Duncan Niederauer to ensure there were no hard feelings, according to people familiar with the conversation.
ICE is now bigger than NYSE Euronext, at least by market value. ICE's market capitalization as of Wednesday's close stood at $9.3 billion, compared with NYSE Euronext's $5.8 billion.
A person familiar with the ICE-NYSE discussions said the possible deal has been complicated by the various businesses each company owns in the U.S. and elsewhere.
Other exchange operators, including CME Group, also could be interested in NYSE Euronext, according to one person familiar with their thinking. A spokeswoman for CME declined to comment.
Acquiring NYSE Euronext's prized U.K. futures market, Liffe, would give commodities-focused ICE a long-sought entry to fixed-income futures, which banks, asset managers and insurance companies use to hedge against shifts in key interest rates. Last year, ICE was poised to pay more than $6 billion for control of Liffe.
—Telis Demos contributed
to this article.
Write to Anupreeta Das at email@example.com and Jenny Strasburg at firstname.lastname@example.com


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Description & Features
Made of velvety fine-wale corduroy these tan double-pleated pants sport a relaxed fit for maximum comfort and everyday wear.
- 100% cotton
- Pleated
- Pre-finished cuffed bottoms
- Zip fly
Holiday 2013 Gift Guide
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Pronto Blue Corduroy Cotton Slacks, Olive
Select Size
Suits & Clothing Size Charts
To get accurate measurements, you will need a soft measuring tape and a friend or partner to help out. Of course, you can always stop in to any Men's Wearhouse and we'll be happy to take your measurements
Suits, Suit Separates, Sport Coats & Outerwear
Measuring Guide
Step 1: Chest Measurement Wrap the tape measure around your torso. Go underneath your arms, across your shoulder blades, and over the largest part of your chest. The chest measurement is usually the size of the coat. For a more relaxed fit, add 1 inch to the total measurement.
Step 2: Over Arm Measurement However, if your over arm measurement is more than 7 inches larger than your chest measurement, the over arm measurement trumps the chest measurement. In this case, your suit size needs to match your over arm measurement.
Your over arm measurement is important, particularly if it is larger than your chest measurement. If this is the case, you will need to fit your chest and upper arm rather than rely on the chest measurement alone. For example, if your chest measurement is 40 inches and the over arm measurement is 49 inches (remember, you subtract 7 from the over arm measurement), you will likely want to start with a size 42 to accommodate your larger upper arms and shoulder width.
Size Conversions
Need Help?
Measuring Tips
Step 1: Neck Measurement. Measure your neck below your Adam's apple, at the place your shirt collar usually hits. Take the total circumference and add ½ inch. This number is your neck size.
Step 2: Sleeve Measurement.Keeping your arm down at your side, measure from behind the center of your neck, over the top of your shoulder, and down to your wrist. This number is your sleeve length.
Size Conversions
Dress Shirt Neck Size
Shirt Size | Approx. Neck Size |
Small | 14 – 14.5 |
Medium | 15 – 15.5 |
Large | 16 – 16.5 |
Need Help?
Pants, Slacks
Measuring Tips
Step 1: Waist Measurement Measure your waist near your navel. The measuring tape should be snug (do not measure over your belt). For a proper fit, dress slacks are worn above the hipbone on the natural waist at about the height of the navel.
Step 2: Hem Measurement When you purchase slacks, you can choose plain-hemmed or cuff-finished pants when tailoring the pant length. Our standard cuff width is about 1¼ inches. Cuff-finished pants will be cut evenly to the heel.
Plain-hemmed (cuffless) bottoms should be slanted toward the heel—shorter in the front and slightly longer in the back.
Break Types When the fabric of your pant leg is longer than your physical leg, pants fold or bend above the cuff. This is called a break. There are three types of pants breaks, each of which suits a different style of pants:
- Full Break or Deep Break: A more classic and traditional look, best suited to pleated pants with wider legs, the Full Break extends to the top of the shoe heel or further in the back and covers about 2/3 to ¾ of the laces on your shoe in the front. The pants fold once (break) where they meet the top of the shoe, creating more fullness throughout the pant and more coverage to your footwear. (Your socks will never show, even when you're walking.)
- Slight Break or Half-Break: About ¾ to 1 inch shorter than a Full Break, pants with a Slight Break have a slight fold a few inches above the bottom of the hem where the pant cuff hits the shoe. The Slight Break works with both flat-front or pleated trousers, plainly finished or cuffed.
- No Break: Also sometimes called a "flood," No Break pants are just long enough in the front to touch the top of the shoe without creating any bend (break) in the fabric when you are standing normally and looking straight ahead. This allows the pants to drape cleanly throughout the leg and is best suited for a slim, flat-front trouser. Take advantage of the No Break by weaing your fun socks, because when you walk or sit, your socks will definitely show.
Need Help?
Shoes and Sandals
Size Chart
Men's Shoe Sizes
6.5 | 39 | 6 |
7 | 40 | 6.5 |
7.5 | 40-41 | 7 |
8 | 41 | 7.5 |
8.5 | 41-42 | 8 |
9 | 42 | 8.5 |
9.5 | 42-43 | 9 |
10 | 43 | 9.5 |
10.5 | 43-44 | 10 |
11 | 44 | 10.5 |
12 | 45 | 11.5 |
13 | 46 | 12.5 |
14 | 47 | 13.5 |
15 | 48 | 14.5 |
16 | 49 | 15.5 |
17 | 50 | 16.5 |
18 | 51 | 17.5 |
19 | 52 | 18.5 |
20 | 53 | 19.5 |
Men's Standard Widths
Narrow | B |
Medium | D |
Wide | EEEE |
Need Help?
Fit Terms & Definitions
Size Terms | Definition |
Long | Suits, sport coats, and outerwear that fit a man 6'0"–6'3" tall |
X Long | Suits, sport coats, and outerwear that fit a man 6'4"–6'6" tall |
Short | Suits, sport coats, and outerwear that fit a man 5'6"–5'8" tall |
X Short | Suits, sport coats, and outerwear that fit a man who is under 5'6" tall |
Fit Terms | |
Fitted / Slim Fit | Suits have a more narrow fit through arms, chest, and sides |
Portly | Suits include additional room through shoulders, arm holes, chest, and sides, and larger waist in pants |
Additional Terms | |
Extra Long Ties | Include an additional 5" in length, making them 62" long instead of 57" long |
36/37" or 38/39" Neck Size | Shirts include an additional 2" in length and an additional button in the front placket |
— Pant size: - waist
Keep your Men's Wearhouse pant creases as crisp as the day they were first pressed.
- Looks sharp, even when you're traveling
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Description & Features
Made of velvety fine-wale corduroy these tan double-pleated pants sport a relaxed fit for maximum comfort and everyday wear.
- 100% cotton
- Pleated
- Pre-finished cuffed bottoms
- Zip fly
- Imported
- Machine Washable
Holiday 2013 Gift Guide
- ★★★★★ ★★★★★ 2.3 out of 5 stars.
- Rating out of 5 stars.
- 3 Reviews
Rating Snapshot
| Average Customer Ratings
- ★★★★★ ★★★★★ 2 out of 5 stars.· 10 months ago
Not wrinkle-free
I was very happy with the great sale price I paid for these especially since they were sold-out in my local store. I bought 2 colors since I believed they were a great value and find. I specifically waited to write this review until I gave them a full test-wear including machine wash and dry. They looked and fit great and were pressed crisply out of the package. Very comfortable. However (and you knew that was coming) although they are machine washable, they are far, far from wrinkle-free. I was very careful to follow the recommended washing instructions and removed them immediately when the drier was finished, to no avail. If you buy these, make sure to add the permanent-press option. I wish I did.
0 people found this review to be helpful. 0 people found this review to not be helpful. - ★★★★★ ★★★★★ 1 out of 5 stars.· a year ago
This product is unacceptable
after I washed the product, it came out grossly wrinkled and the cuffs came down. Very unhappy with your product!
0 people found this review to be helpful. 0 people found this review to not be helpful. - ★★★★★ ★★★★★ 4 out of 5 stars.· 9 months ago
Love them
I had ordered a brown pair and a olive pair the olive was so close to brown that I had to exchange them for a tan pair....but very nice pants in all just a little to close to brown and I didn't want my husband to have 2 brown pair
0 people found this review to be helpful. 0 people found this review to not be helpful.


text:
NYON, Switzerland (AP) -- UEFA has punished Cypriot club APOEL Nicosia and Croatian club HNK Rijeka for racist behavior by fans at Europa League matches.
UEFA says a section of APOEL's stadium will be closed when it hosts Bordeaux on Nov. 7.
APOEL was also fined $61,500 for a range of charges including offensive banners, throwing fireworks and late kickoffs for both halves of its 3-0 loss to Eintracht Frankfurt on Oct. 3.
UEFA says Rijeka's stadium will be partially closed when it hosts Lyon on Nov. 7.
Rijeka was also charged over fans' offensive banners at a 1-1 tie against Real Betis on Oct. 3. The club was fined $11,000.
UEFA agreed on new rules in May to ensure faster prosecutions and tougher sanctions for discrimination inside stadiums.