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While the economy in Europe might look better today than it did six months ago, there's no denying that we're not quite out of the storm just yet. On the contrary, things aren't all doom and gloom for it is this storm that is serving contemporary brands really well. Today accessible brands like Zadig & Volatire, Sandro, Maje and Comptoir des Cotonniers that are gaining serious traction. Sandro, for example, is expected to take in €200million this year compared to €15 million back in 2007. Not bad for a brand that has been criticised for not breaking new ground, eh? Along with Mother of Pearl, Gallery 4 is helping to fly the flag for the contemporary accessible brand on this side of the pond.
Recently I caught up with Louise Rhodes, the brand's head designer, to find out more about the line and see the full collection and was instantly I was sold. 'When I was given this opportunity I really wanted to create a high-end product with accessible prices,' she said - and she is definitely onto something. As the wealthy pull back on their spending and the former high street purchaser looks for quality and a return on their investment, it is brands like this that are really helping bridge the gap. 'All of my friends want something like this because we don't necessarily have the money to get the pieces we want.' And it's true. As a fan of all things Scandinavian I was instantly drawn to the boy-meets-girl minimalist aesthetic of Rhodes' clothes. Unlike other brands like this who are riding the minimalist wave at the moment, Gallery 4 is available at a fraction of the price without compromising on quality.
At a recent talk in Browns L'Wren Scott said that for her, it's all about helping her customers build their wardrobes rather than indoctrinating them with trends and that's a sentiment that Rhodes clearly proscribes to. With Louise it's not all about tapping into trends. Instead she plans to rework their prints whilst building on their signatures. With that said, expect wardrobe staples like simple blouses, blazers and shirt dresses to come reworked with a modern twist that will hold you in good stead season after season.
Check out their S/S12 collection here today.


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Your smile is so attractive, The fact your teeth aren't straight! I love it<3
The way your eyelashes curl up Lol so cute!
Ily :')
J. Cole "Cole World: The Sideline Story" NYC Listening Session
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I have a concrete balcony that has deterioted due to water. I am looking for an alternate solution that is cheap and easy to install. I have received some pricing for epoxy top coat and mortar top coat but both are pretty expensive. Is there a good product out there like a plastic matting of some sort or a better way to overlay this area without breaking the bank too much? | |||
Covering it with a plastic mat will only provide cosmetic coverage for the deteriorating concrete. Sight unseen I have no idea how damaged the concrete is and whether the proposed solutions are the best or are cost effective. Only someone on site can tell you that. Even if I was on site, not being a concrete expert would make my solution a guess. A product like Top and Bond can be applied to smooth the rough/deteriorated concrete. It won't structurally repair the concrete if it is weakened by the deterioration. Here is a video on repairing a crack with Top and Bond. It is a cement product with special additives to allow it to bond to existing concrete and it is without stone aggregate to allow it to be feathered out quite thinly to smooth the transition from the patch to the surface. Again this would be a cosmetic fix to give you a smoother surface, it may prevent further deterioration by smoothing the surface and not allowing water to get into the concrete which in an area with freeze/thaw cycles will cause significant damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07blEEF0qxM General Disclaimer Any advice given here is general in nature and is not necessarily valid for your given area. If in doubt check with your local codes enforcement department for what is required when doing electrical, plumbing or structural work on your house. Permits may or may not be required in your area and home owners may not be able to DIY some tasks. I have no way of knowing if you have the skills needed to complete the tasks you are asking about, when in doubt seek professional assistance. My advice may be worth exactly what you pay me for it. :-) For the record I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. | ||||
The concrete here is sound and has been repaired where it is not. It is all in good condition but it just looks in bad condition. I am just looking for a cosmetic fix to this. There are no cracks. It pretty much just looks oxidized but it isn't. Must have been a bad pour. I am afriad a thin top coat would just chip up after a couple years, that is why I thought about a matting or any other kind of overlay. Unless there is a cheap alternative for a top coat that won't chip. Any more ideas would be great! | ||||
Couple of options come to mind. One being to pressure wash to renew the finish. If it will not brighten then you may need the aid of some Muratic Acid per manufactures recommendations. Second would be plastice snap together tiles. Often used in garages floors. They can be obtained in a variety of colors. Raised composite decking. These of course are just suggestions and w/o actually seeing the condition of the concrete they may or may not work for your application.This message has been edited. Last edited by: redoverfarm, | ||||
There are thicker rubber roofing membranes that could work as a cover over the concrete too. (they are made for flat roofs that are regularly walked on) Patch the concrete as needed and then perimeter glue down the rubber? Comes in a few neutral colors too. We had a contractor suggest this as an alternative to repouring a really slick finished concrete porch area. (we ended up etching the concrete and using "shark grip" in a solid colored concrete stain)This message has been edited. Last edited by: Conrad, | ||||
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Fundraising frenzy for Obama, Romney
Romney outraised Obama in May
The battle for big bucks kicks into high gear Tuesday as campaigning takes a backseat to fund-raising for President Barack Obama and Republican challenger Mitt Romney.
The president could raise at least $3.6 million at six fundraisers he's attending in Maryland and Pennsylvania. According to a campaign official, Obama is the main attraction at an event in Owings Mills, Md., followed by two more in Baltimore. The president then makes the very short hop from Baltimore to Philadelphia, where he's the center of attention at three fundraisers at the Franklin Institute.
All proceeds from the event to go the Obama Victory Fund, a joint fundraising committee of the Obama re-election campaign, the Democratic National Committee and several state Democratic parties.
After holding a campaign event in Orlando, Fla., Romney will be the main attraction at a couple of fund-raisers. According to a campaign official, 150 tickets have been sold for a photo reception, general reception and a private luncheon, with ticket prices ranging from $2,500 to $50,000. The presumptive Republican nominee then heads to Franklin, Tenn., for another fundraiser.
Romney raised around $3 million at a couple of high dollar events Monday evening in Atlanta.
While Obama held the early edge in the race for campaign cash, Romney outraised the president last month. The Romney campaign reports it and the Republican National Committee raised a combined $76.8 million in May, compared to the more than $60 million the Obama campaign says it and the Democratic National Committee brought in last month.
Then-Sen. Obama broke all records in raising around $750 million in the 2008 cycle, more than tripling the money brought in by Sen. John McCain, the GOP presidential nominee. But it should be a much more even money race this time around, especially when you factor in the independent super PACs (Republican groups are out-raising their Democratic counterparts), which didn't exist four years ago.
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Permanent muscle loss??
April 01, 2011, 03:16:28 AM »
Is there such a thing as permanent muscle loss (quadricep loss) after ACL surgery? I'm going on 11 months and my muscle still lacks muscle tone. There is a loss of muscle control, muscle tone, and loss of muscle mass because maybe the lack of nervous stimulation to the muscles? I'm not sure but I'm going in for nerve tests (EMG, NCS). I'm unable to squat on my bad leg, can't get down stairs, and the muscle doesnt allow me to put much weight on leg because there is no tone to the muscle.
I hope that they find nerve damage because the lack in muscle is not allowing me to walk right and do the normal functions to this point. If I sit for too long or place much activity on my leg, the knee locks up severely. The surgery did moor harm then good to me. Anyone out there that has had this happened to them or know something about this?
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Re: Permanent muscle loss??
Reply #1 on:
April 01, 2011, 05:29:00 PM »
Sounds like you may have nerve damage and that you're being attended to for that.
Nerve damage always happens in surgery because the OS is cutting through tissue. However, nerves normally grow back in a way to enable you to resume function. It sounds as though in your case this hasn't happened and it's a rare complication.
I hope they can sort something out for you soon. One thing you can look into is SCENAR technology. This has a good track record of helping with neuromuscular problems and pain. Just put SCENAR into Google and it'll pull up a number of sites for you to dig into.
1/05 Ski accident: 5/05 ACLr LK; 10/06 Scope debridement, trochlear cartilage lesion (Gr4); 12/08 Scope chondroplasty, hematoma; 5 & 6/09 MACI patella & trochlea 'kissing lesions', ROM 0 to 80; 9/09 Scope LOA, IPCS & patella infera; 9/10 Scope AIR & LR.
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Re: Permanent muscle loss??
Reply #2 on:
April 04, 2011, 09:09:33 PM »
I am going through the same thing...although I didn't tear my ACL. I had a fulkerson osteotomy, lateral release, removal of scare tissue, and ligament work the beginning of this year. My OS is extremely unhappy with the way I walk and it concerned him and my PT's so he sent me for a EMG/NCS. They found I have nerve damage in my lower leg which is affecting the way I walk. I also, like you, have absolutely no muscle in my quad. I can't squat, go down stairs, and my leg gives out very easily due to no muscle and the fact that I now have nerve damage. I have been working on gaining the muscle back since about 3 weeks after surgery, but it isn't coming back.
So now in PT I am constantly hooked up to to a TENS unit to make my muscle wake up. They place it on my quads and I go through all the strengthening exercises with it on. Then I sit on the table and they hook it up to my ankle to help with the nerve issue. So far I am not noticing a difference, but it has only been a week. My OS also wants to put me on a steroid to attempt to help the nerve issue, but I am afraid to take meds.... It's called predisone, but it has a huge list of side affects so I have yet to call him back to get the prescription...
Hope this info. helps!
MICROgeek (<20 posts)
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Re: Permanent muscle loss??
Reply #3 on:
April 16, 2012, 11:55:05 PM »
i am extremely sorry for the problems you are dealing with! and i am trying to find out if i have a condition similar to yours or not. just as you said, i can't go downstairs, i can't squat on the affected leg and i feel that entire leg unstable, not only the knee, but the hip and ankle also. and i have an extremely big pain all around my knee, not necessarily inside of it, altough i have regained a big part of my muscle mass. when you are trying to plant your foot, do you feel an extremely big pain in your leg that simply makes all of your muscles loose tone instantly? because this is what i feel. i can make the movement in the air ( hardly, though ) but when i plant my foot, the pain around my knee , especially in the medial side under my knee makes all of my muscles loose their tone and i feel my entire leg unstable. does anyone else experience this thing? best wishes for all of you !
MICROgeek (<20 posts)
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Re: Permanent muscle loss??
Reply #4 on:
October 06, 2012, 09:27:37 AM »
Hi all, I went through my 2nd ACL recon 3 months back and the same kind of Pain Started like a month back and it does so bad as the day progresses that it get difficult for me to walk around.. I am just 25yr old and I drive a lot. I asked my Doc and mt PT if thats the reason, they just said that the problem lies with the repeatitive surgeries on the same part of the body and apparently I have a condition known as "Soft Tissue Abbrasions" U should probably ask your Doc if thats the same case with you!! Coz I m doing extensive PT, but have no relief whatsoever!!!
The only reason I got the 2nd ACl is cos my Knee had Locking n a lot of pain(only if I overstress myself).. But now I really think I shouldn't have gone through it cos my knee locks up even now and the pain in 100% more than before!
MICROgeek (<20 posts)
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second knee surgery?
Reply #5 on:
March 20, 2013, 08:08:05 PM »
i have the same problem with nerve damage ? cant squat down either, i re-injured my leg on jan 1, 2013 fractured femur had surgery they put three more screws in now im even more limited with range of motion. i feel like my acl re-tore but due to insurance defeciencies my liagment issues were not addressed...
now doctor says i have severe arthritis and the next step would be knee replacement.... Im now unable to hardly get up stairs at home - damaging my good knee....
Posts: 3337
Liked: 3
Knee pain go away never come back again!
Re: Permanent muscle loss??
Reply #6 on:
April 03, 2013, 05:52:20 PM »
Hi All,
I had my medical plica removed and fat pad trimmed in November 2009 on my right knee and since then my right quads have shrunk and never been able to get them to the same size as my left and before my latest fall and new knee injury was a very competitive regular runner. Took 18 months of PT before my right knee was ready for running again.
I have been told by my PT that I have very tight knotted muscles that's contributing to my knee and hip pain I am getting and hope PT does the trick.
Right knee: PFS
05/09/13 Botox injection into tensor fascia lata
25/01/13 Heavy fall onto pavement walking
30/03/10 Cortisone injection into medial side
16/11/09 Medial plica excision & fat pad trim
23/04/09 Cortisone injection into lateral side
19/10/07 Heavy fall onto pavement running
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The Lightning locker room was a happier place Thursday following the team's 3-1 win over Ottawa. Click below to hear interviews from Head Coach Jon Cooper and the players who made an impact in the game.
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The New Breed FVP032
In Malibu Kris Bjorn and Nick Harlen seduce beach jogger Bill Henson, who shows he can handle everything put to him! Blond stud Wes Cole gets his money's worth in Stud For Hire with callboy-for-hire Jeff Porte. Halfbreed "Tex" nabs Tony Calhoun trespassing on native lands in The New Breed! Brief has sweated up Bill Henson in and out of his underwear.
Plus two previously unreleased scenes!
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Malibu (Loops 680-681) Sleek blond Kris Bjorn and muscle-pumped Nick Harlen seek a third during spring break. Bill Henson is hesitant at first, but succumbs to Kris' and Nick's friendly persuasion and the prospects of Bjorn's mighty-hard-to-pass-up supercock and Harlen's perfect ass begging to be packed.
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Stud For Hire(Loop 682) Cock-hungry Wes Cole turns to the "Classifieds" to order some hot action in for the evening--and gets everything he bargained for in the person of Jeff Porter, who sports the proverbial "Dick of Death." After the studs have each shot a heavy load, a C-note is exchanged and baby-faced Porter is on his way to the next call.
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Join the fight to protect earth - Now using the Savage Worlds ruleset! Monsters and demons have existed on Earth since its inception, terrorizing humanity throughout history. But some of them decided to fight back, creating a company of like-minded beings (even other demons) to defend the Earth from supernatural threats. Today, the shadow company has it's hands in every fa... [click here for more]
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The ancients foresaw the coming of vile beasts. Monstrosities born at the dawn of the universe that would awaken from their millennia-long slumber to destroy the Earth and humankind. These monsters were dubbed the Dark Gods by the forgotten prophets of days past; according to their grim vision, nothing could stop these beings from destroying the human race.The prophecies were all true.Deities h... [click here for more]
Studio 2 decided to print Nemezis, and because of page requirements, the book (and also updated pdf, which will be posted very soon) will have index (which didn`t make it earlier) and adventure generator. But for those who cannot wait untill we update the pdf, you can download that generator here!
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Get in a fight with mall security. The fate of the world depends on it.
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8 Meetup Groups match "Off Leash Dog Recreation" near Canton, MI
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Best Friends Pet Care is a company that promotes responsible dog ownership. We want to invite other dog owners to come join us for some dog frolicking fun...no charge! No gimmicks, just a great place to play....we have a large indoor space and a large outdoor space to choose from. If you have a dog who gets along with others and is spayed/neutered and up-to-date on all vaccines, please join us for a couple of hours a month so some fun and socialization.
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Hello dog and person. This is the official one and only dog meetup centered in and around Ann Arbor Michigan. Dogs and their owners can catch from fresh air here, or show off their skills, or play and run till' they can't anymore, or explore the wilderness, or swim in a lake, or socialize and compare their tails, or play some pick up flyball. Most important of all, your dog can have fun, because here (wherever here is) your dog is a dog and life is just that. So if your willing to give your dog …
Meetup details are available only to members.
This is a group for Newfoundland Dogs and their people. What an amazing breed! Newfy's love to socialize, play and swim. It would be amazing to see a whole group of Newfs romping around together! Let's meet and see where they take us. So....Come, Sit, Stay!
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Hi! My name is Cosmo and I am a five year old pug who LOVES to play with other dogs. RahRah is my four year old frenchie sister who also loves to have doggy play dates. We enjoy going to the Paw Playground at Cascades Humane Society (1515 Carmen Drive, Jackson) but often, we are the only dogs there :( We are setting up some doggy play dates in hopes that there will be other dogs to play with! We'll meet a couple of times of month at the Paw Playground for doggy socialization and fun! Please make …
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Join other responsible dog owners and skilled pet care professionals for a fun and educational experience! If you have a dog or a puppy, a love of the outdoors, and you would like to meet other active dog owners while having fun training, hiking, socializing and playing with your dogs, then this is the Meetup group for you! Our Mission * To shape dogs through exercise and leadership into happy, well balanced and good canine citizens. * To educate dog owners how to be positive leaders, thus bu …
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This is a social group that organizes playdates and casual social events for Italian Greyhound owners and their dogs. It's primary purpose is to support IG Rescue in Michigan by donating playdate proceeds, recruiting new foster homes and volunteers and as a forum to meet the needs of the IG community. Feel free to post questions, dog sitting requests, information about events and vet recommendations. This board DOES NOT ALLOW re-homing of Italian Greyhounds, dogs for sale, breeding requests, stu …
~ Dog Play Group ~ and more- We are a group of dog-happy owners with happy dogs! Although you may walk your dogs daily, sometimes it's fun to let the dogs all play in a group. We have large and small dogs in the group- all breeds, all playing, all welcome. We do occasional on-leash and off-leash walks, Yappy Hours, camping and lodge weekend trips and anything we can put together! We invite you to try out pet therapy with our sister group, as well as keeping you up to date on dog friendly acti …
Meetup details are available only to members.
We are a meetup group for Great Danes and their humans to get together for socialization and play. We have weekly meetups ranging from walks in the parks to offleash events, potlucks and holiday celebrations. We arrange for activities in the community that allow our danes to attend the events and we also attend activities that support animal welfare in the community. Great Dane Meetup of Northwest Ohio hopes to bring knowledge and education about the Gentle Giants and support animals in need.
Get an alert email when new Meetup Groups like this start near you.
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SOURCE Videology
Viewers exposed to geographically targeted video campaigns showed a 50-60% higher propensity on average to purchase the advertised auto brand versus a control group
NEW YORK, Oct. 17, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Videology-a leading video advertising platform for advertisers and media companies-released a new report today entitled "Messaging That Moves Cars Off Lots," that shows targeted digital video drives a significant increase in sales metrics, increases overall advertising effectiveness, and offers a viable option to complement television campaigns for local auto dealers.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20130108/NY37257LOGO)
Videology's objective in this research analysis was to quantify digital video's ability to drive sales for automotive marketers. Based on data compiled from auto advertisers using the Videology platform over the past six months, this report offers directional results demonstrating how well digital video drives sales for auto dealers and how different geographic, contextual and purchased-based targeting data affects outcomes.
The analysis found that when digital video campaigns target on broad demographic criteria only, the impact on sales of the advertised brand is not as pronounced as in similar campaigns with additional targeting criteria. The report concludes that all automotive campaigns-even national efforts-benefit from an advanced targeting lens if the end goal is to drive sales.
Criteria that have the most positive influence on subsequent purchase behavior include geography, purchase affinity, site selection, frequency, and in some scenarios, even browser selection.
In one case study, a geo-targeted campaign for a major auto brand drove a 60% sales lift among those exposed to the video advertising campaign versus the control group. When the additional filter of purchase data, i.e. those in-market to purchase an automobile, was added to the campaign, sales lift rose to 160%.
"Digital video can target on precise geographies and discrete consumer segments-including those in-market to buy a car. Common sense says it should work to move cars out of dealerships-and now we have the data to back it up," said Scott Ferber, Chairman and CEO, Videology.
Videology's full report can be downloaded by clicking here or by visiting Videology's website, videologygroup.com.
About Videology
Videology (videologygroup.com) is an enterprise technology company for advertising and media companies. Its video platform allows brands, agencies and media companies to plan, serve, manage, and monitor video ad campaigns using features and specifications typical to TV, while taking advantage of the advanced targeting, optimization, and efficiencies of digital media. Videology's technology transforms the TV and digital experience so that a different ad-the right ad-will be shown to the desired consumer.
Videology, Inc., is a privately-held, venture-backed company, whose investors include Catalyst Investors, Comcast Ventures, NEA, Pinnacle Ventures, and Valhalla Partners. Videology is headquartered in Baltimore, MD, with key offices in New York, Austin, Toronto, London, Paris, Madrid, Singapore, Sydney and sales teams across North America. For more information, contact Michele Skettino at email@example.com or 212-231-7853.
©2012 PR Newswire. All Rights Reserved.


text: Evergreens and other festive botanicals have been used as seasonal decorations since ancient winter solstice festivals. Here, a traditional medley of greenery, pinecones and scarlet berries adds rich color to our hand-glazed earthenware mugs. Made for us by artisans in Portugal, they're just right for serving everything from coffee and tea to hot chocolate and mulled cider.


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Inflammatory Bowel Disease: Intestinal Problems (cont.)Medical Author:
Lori Kam, MD
Medical Editor:
Leslie J. Schoenfield, MD, PhD
Leslie J. Schoenfield, MD, PhDDr. Schoenfield served as associate professor of medicine and consultant in gastroenterology on the faculty of the Mayo Clinic for seven years. He became a professor of medicine in residence at UCLA from 1972 to 1999 (now emeritus). He was the director of gastroenterology at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles for 25 years, where he received the chief resident's teaching award, the president's award, and the pioneer of medicine award. In this Article
Intestinal Problems in IBD At A Glance
Patient CommentsViewers share their comments
Inflammatory Bowel Disease - Experience
Question: Please describe the inflammatory bowel disease you suffer from.
Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) - Treatments
Question: What kinds of treatment, therapy, or medication have you received for your inflammatory bowel disease?
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Question: Were you diagnosed with fistulas? Please describe your symptoms.
Inflammatory Bowel Disease - Colon Cancer
Question: If you have IBD, what are your concerns about developing colon cancer?
Inflammatory Bowel Disease - Complications
Question: What are the complications you've experienced with IBD? How have these been treated?


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August 24, 2011
Tracy McDannald GOAZCATS.com
With time running out before the season opener, Arizona head coach Mike Stoops shared his depth chart at placekicker Tuesday. ...More... To continue reading this article you must be a member. Sign Up Now for a FREE Trial
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Release Date: June 24, 2009 |
New Jersey Joins the Energy Department's Carbon Sequestration Regional Partnership ProgramNew Jersey Joins the Energy Department's Carbon Sequestration Regional Partnership Program | ||||||
Washington, D.C. — The State of New Jersey is the newest member of the U.S. Department of Energy's Regional Carbon Sequestration Partnership program—the centerpiece of national efforts to validate and deploy carbon sequestration technologies. The addition of New Jersey, the 43rd state to join the program, helps strengthen U.S. efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and mitigate climate change.
The Regional Carbon Sequestration Partnership program comprises a nationwide association of federal, state, and private-sector partnerships that are determining the most suitable technologies, regulations, and infrastructure for future carbon capture and storage activities in different areas of the country. Launched in 2003, the program is leading national efforts to develop the infrastructure and knowledge base needed to place carbon sequestration technologies on the path to commercialization. The seven regional partnerships now include more than 350 organizations spanning 43 states, three Indian nations, and four Canadian provinces. The National Energy Technology Laboratory manages the partnerships program for DOE's Office of Fossil Energy. During the first phase of the program, the seven partnerships characterized the potential for carbon dioxide (CO2) storage in deep geologic formations. When Phase I ended in 2005, the partnerships had identified more than 3,000 billion metric tons of potential storage capacity in promising geologic formations. These formations have the potential to provide more than 1,000 years of storage capacity from point sources throughout North America. In Phase II of the program, the partnerships are implementing a portfolio of small-scale geologic and terrestrial sequestration projects. The purpose of these projects is to validate that different geologic formations have the receptivity, containment, and storage effectiveness needed for long-term storage. During Phase III, the partnerships will complete large-volume tests to validate that the capture, transportation, injection, and long term storage of up to one million tons of CO2 per year can be done safely, permanently, and economically. Efforts in New Jersey will focus on the developing and integrating data on the potential geologic and terrestrial sequestration capacity in the Garden State. Due to the prevalence of off-shore storage opportunities believed to exist in New Jersey, MRSCP will, for the first time, include off-shore reservoirs in its database. The seven regional partnerships are—


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What should Colorado Springs do next in light of a judge's injunction on the no-solicitation zone?
The Gazette asked Mayor Steve Bach and City Council members to answer the question Wednesday.
Only City Councilman Bernie Herpin responded.
"Before I can comment on the status of the lawsuit and implementation of the no solicitation ordinance, I would need to hear from our City Attorney. However, we do have an 'aggressive solicitation' ordinance on the books that would cover most of the more aggressive panhandling anywhere in the city. It, like all our laws, becomes a matter of enforcement," Herpin said in an email.
"I, also, do not understand the comments from the judge about our lack of discussion on other issues with the content of the no solicitation ordinance," Herpin added. "I recall that we talked extensively about no charity solicitation, specifically about the Salvation Army bell ringers; street performers; sandwich boards; Girl Scouts; and other impacts of the ordinance besides just panhandling."
City Attorney Chris Melcher weighed in Wednesday afternoon, saying the city had already issued a statement on the matter.
"The release stated that the city would carefully review the written opinion when released next week, consult with legal counsel, and make a decision after a thoughtful review and discussion," Melcher said in an email.
Melcher also said that Herpin was "absolutely correct" that "there were substantial and detailed discussions in public council sessions that discussed solicitation by charitable organizations," including the Salvation Army and the Girl Scouts, and solicitation by musicians and other street performers.
"Until we have the judge's written decision, we cannot be sure what the court meant by those comments or whether the court was simply mistaken in its review of the record," Melcher said. "The entire City Council proceedings on the ordinance were entered into the record by the city at the hearing, and the record before the court will reflect those discussions. "
Melcher said it's unlikely city leaders will be able to discuss "possible next steps" until the next council meeting Jan. 7 because of the holidays.


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May 30, 2012
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I did my normal.
And might not -- -- we -- ask ourselves some time to time sometimes a look to even move and it's a question we asked doctor -- tableau every single week.
Joining us right now to answer emails -- -- -- himself.
He's -- -- RC want to college for this so he really knows a lot of stuff there yeah all right so we've gotten some emails here -- here we go.
My wife has forbidden my son from playing football or ice hockey.
Doctor -- she says it isn't worth the physical risks to him he's nine she's pretty controlling many other ways to.
Is she normal or not it's.
Look I'm gonna say.
Why because she's pretty controlling another -- this -- Slower it's that last -- but also listen they're want to risks in the world.
He admitted the mom is stepping porting no football no hockey and she's controlling pubs -- of somebody else.
The man B is dad get some skate lace them up send the way to the ice -- -- -- guide it would have your kids do -- -- -- those sports.
Yeah might check my if you got this no absolutely.
-- my son loves hockey.
There are lots of risks in the world Brian and if his -- that know no football no market say look.
You've got other issues you try to control -- the time.
This is gonna happen right -- -- up on the corner drinking Scotch with his friends and eleven.
Right now it's a risk right OK here I'm paranoid about -- might wrong emails to the wrong person.
Example I picture a derogatory message about my boss -- of -- -- about my boss to co workers and actually sending to my boss instead.
These scenes played my mind what about that sending an email to -- bosses have everybody else about your books.
We're all caught.
In this technological.
World that's irrational fear the rations it's rational.
Because guess what you can hit the wrong button and how many percent had that experience I have we -- look oh my god now get a hybrid idle all or write yet you get -- like write a really creative quick replies yes it is knowing next.
Not that that.
It never works but the bottom line is -- He supposedly.
Accidentally did that -- Thirty years ago I had a bad experience while learning how to pump gas.
Today I can't bear to fill up my own car I literally gotten stranded on empty when they combine -- full service station.
Normal or not it's you -- to do that you could do that -- it's not this is classic obsessive compulsive behavior posttraumatic stress disorder.
Something happened I can't imagine what that -- -- Happened when this person was pumping gas but they're traumatized so get therapy there's this EM DR where you move your eyes rapidly -- you recount what happened.
And I'm transfixed I wanna know what -- happened at the gas station but this person needs help but -- the is that he sometimes people make up phobias.
Because they don't want to do things like pump gas honey you know me I can't pump gas that you make your wife go out and -- it.
-- that -- -- -- this that you why haven't heard that you didn't know I've I've never had an outside.
Share that with me and let's say is that I novel kind of so worried that I would wonder how you how it came to you.
-- you mean these things up in your life that I was like what is sacred and it wasn't going to be about me and couldn't stay out of this state.
I'm just then crashed idol -- and he was coloring -- coloring access for this that it does the team right you're coloring other people's.
Drawings that are -- reached over -- public and a little unusual I -- I mean.
I -- think.
This is not going Stuart Varney was perfectly able -- going in the line I'm gonna move out of my therapy session now this is -- -- -- because that true.
Hey available and rolling log on to FOX & Friends dot com and email back to keep -- -- this thing you'll answer growing every week fine but you're charging the -- -- do that yet.
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Anyone experiencing problems with the Times Archives? I seem to be getting a lot of 404 errors when trying to do a search. I've also tried to subscribe a couple of times but have never received any confirmation emails.
Is the Infotrac/galegroup site still avaialable for searching the Times? I found this site more user friendly.


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11:52 PM, Friday, December 06
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Kansas City Disc Golf Events Calendar
October 2012 – February 2013
Second Annual Hope Faith Open Disc Golf Tournament
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Hope Faith Ministries is an equipping day center providing, through multiple in-house collaborating agencies, a centralized location for the homeless and less fortunate of [...]
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Disc Golf World, in cooperation with The West Plaza Tomato Company and the Kansas City Flying Disc Club, presents the 16th annual Rosedale Amateur Championships A Trophy [...]
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An unsanctioned event at Rosedale Park on December 9th playing one round up top and another round down under. RESULTS: Open Ken Franks 103 [...]
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The world's most trusted source in collecting
(05-30-2011 10:11 AM)ripkenfan72 Wrote: dublup and spazmatastic make my list
(05-30-2011 10:13 AM)jsonnentag Wrote: could i add my name to the list?
(05-30-2011 10:19 AM)Duchovny2 Wrote: I only had 40 trades from my other account, but starting next month I'm going to try to set up a trade bucket.
(05-30-2011 10:19 AM)chibearsboy Wrote: well not really... someone needs to add your name. you can add the ones you trade with and trust though? i would add you but i have never dealt with you..i'm sure your a good dude brother! hell i hope someone adds me! : ) i'm not on it yet Dutch your on it as of now... i have NEVER,EVER heard one bad thing about you and your like,like..grandfathered in........ i will stick the ol' neck out for you brother..
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Yes, the air moving across the capsule at thousands of kilometers per hour. One of the primary functions of the boost protective cover (BPC) is to protect the capsule from aerodynamic forces and heating during boost. We don't yet know specifically what Orion's design will be, but Apollo was covered with reflective mylar for thermal control. Without the BPC this mylar would have been damaged, perhaps even riped off the capsule entirely. Without the mylar the capsule would overheat and the mission would fail. So although the BPC protects the capsule from LAS exhaust, this is not its only purpose.
If all the internal space is already allocated to equipment, you can reallocate all you want and you wouldn't be able to create more space. In that case the only way to make room for the motors is to make the SM bigger (and heavier).
I have a feeling we are about to have the same debate we had months ago
For every extra kilogram of non-payload mass you carry to orbit, the payload must be decreased one kilogram to offset, and vice versa. Say for example the structural mass of the SM increases; you must then decrease the mass of the remaining payload an equal amount to compensate.
However if you experience mass growth or reduction in components that are jettisoned during ascent, the affect on deliverable payload is much less. For instance, if you save a ton on the LAS this does not mean you gain a ton of extra payload. According to my estimates, every 100 kg of mass saved on the LAS produces only about 8 extra kilograms of payload.
Lets use your numbers and say the tower LAS has a mass of 6,100 kg and your LAS has a mass of 5,000 kg*. This gains you only 88 kg in payload mass. This 88 kg could easily be eaten up by SM structural changes to accommodate the abort motors, thus yielding no effective change in delivered payload.
(* I am not conceding that your LAS is lighter. Im using this number as an example only.)
Carrying your abort motors all the way to orbit is the worst thing you can do. Adding a 5,000 kg LAS and jettisoning it during ascent costs you about 400 kg in payload, but carrying it all the way to orbit reduces the payload 5,000 kg.
The drawing in your article shows a TPS protection panel that appears to detach along with the abort motors. How does this work if the abort motors are jettisoned during boost while the SM is still attached? If this protective panel has to be carried to orbit then its mass reduces the payload, possibly negating everything you saved with the lighter LAS.
No Gaetano, a pdf file is what you've seen of it. The design is the hard engineering work behind the results presented in the pdf file. The design isn't finished agreed, but the design process has been going on. Sure you can still alter things, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been thoroughly designed yet. Who knows they've already gone through all things you propose in the design phase. Calling the current Orion a ".pdf design" is failing to recognize the true engineering work behind that pdf. Unlike your articles, it is quite more than a "hey and how about this" design work.Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
Google is a nifty tool. Type in "orion parachute" if you want to know about Orion's parachutes. The first image that turns up is this nice, official, NASA schematic showing the current NASA parachute proposal. The first step reads: "jettison forward heat shield". Note again that the word "proposal" in this context does not mean "hey and what about doing this" but is the result of lots of engineering. It's more than Griffin's napkin. It's the part that survives after the engineering work that showed for example Griffin's napkin idea to be less than optimal. Currently, there are 2 possibilities on the chutes still open (this NASA proposal and Lockheed Martin's proposal), but they differ in drogue/mains methods, materials and 3 or 4 main chutes, not in the forward heat shield being above them. Apparently NASA's proposal has most chances, especially as L-M's proposal uses a material not commercially available. But it's a bit vague, as for example that article is dated next week...Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
No it was an error of reasoning, as explained in the following discussion with bob b and cjl. That discussion brought forth some nice nuances, such as the increased inertia pro/cons and the influence of a larger moment arm on the attitude system. Interesting.Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
I disagree. I don't see arguments allowing for the quantitative results you show. Plus stressing these quantitative results makes them look far more solid than they are.Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
Fine, in that case refrain from make quantitative statements derived from the lack of details.Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
Yes, the air. If you laugh at the idea of the air being a threat to a capsule, please stay very far away from any attempt at designing them. Dynamic pressure forces, friction forces, shock waves, turbulence, friction heat, stagnation heat... anything ring a bell? But hey, let's also not forget that the air isn't a problem for a capsule returning faster from lunar orbit compared to LEO because as you put it so nicely "that's true in first minutes, but the atmosphere quickly slows the capsule". Some more understanding on the subject wouldn't hurt here before proposing "BETTER" designs and slamming NASA who's struggling for a 1 mT cut with your thin air (pardon the pun) 3-4 mT figures.Originally Posted by gaetanomarano
That is only true if your other assumptions are also true, no proof of which is given. You don't know how much lighter IF lighter they will be, no matter how many number you pull out of your hat.since the abort motors in my design are lighter
Why is that a best suggestion? Exactly what is not possible with the tower LAS? Are impact damage chances indeed decreased when detaching engines in stable orbit, so is that indeed absolutely the safest option? What is the weight/performance penalty of bringing these engines (of which you don't know the weight compared to the tower) to stable orbit? And how many rockets have been launched with an escape tower in history, how many of them have had a problem with detaching the escape tower? What's the increased safety of proven concepts?the best suggestion (possible ONLY with my LAS) is to detach them (with the 2nd stage and teh Nose Cone) when the Orion is in its stable elliptical orbit
Yes that's a lot of questions, but a very strong statement needs very strong tests of its validity.
a capsule built to survive a VERY HOT reentry can't be damaged by "aerodynamic forces" or "hot air" in the first 20 km. of the flight (when the capsule's speed is lower than a military fighter!) ..."protects the capsule from LAS exhaust" is the ONLY purpose of the BPC ...you (absolutely) want to add the BPC to my TBS-Orion because you're aware of its dimension and WEIGHT so, without it, you can't deny that my LAS offer a considerable mass' saving ...recent news say that NASA must save 1 mT on the current (estimated) Orion's mass ...well, since my LAS has LESS (big and heavy) parts, it can offer over TWICE the mass' saving NASA needs (also WITHOUT change the Orion's dimension, shape, etc.) ...if you want to insist on this point you can do, but I will not follow you on this absurdity
Last edited by gaetanomarano; 2007-Feb-13 at 12:29 PM.
OK here's one for you (but don't try this at home! Intended as a mental exercise only ). Stand on your chair and jump off. *pof*. OK very well. Now stand on your chair again and jump off, but this time stand make sure you land on your head. *splat*. oooooouch.a capsule built to survive a VERY HOT reentry can't be damaged by "aerodynamic forces" or "hot air" in the first 20 km. of the flight
The point is: the capsule returns with its large, nice, thick, ablative lower heat shield first. But it ascends with its top first. And that is why it has a smaller upper heat shield on top. Because you can have all the heat shield you want below you, if the heat's above you it won't help a thing.
The upper heat shield is something different than the BPC. The BPC is there to protect you against the LAS tower firing, against ascent and pre-ascent strikes, to improve the aerodynamic specs of the capsule and as a large (= safer! as you like to put it) protection of the capsule and all its exterior components against all these things, and aerodynamic forces and heating...
Your velocity claim is wrong and incomplete. Let's take saturn V -the only other moon rocket- as comparison.
Saturn V reaches 500 m/s, or 1800 km/h, already at 2 km altitude. That is already as fast as a concorde, which starts having some very intriguing heat problems at that velocity, better aerodynamical shape and 20 vs 2 km altitude. Do I need to point out the difference in aerodynamic pressure between 20 and 2 kilometers altitude? The hottest part of an object moving through air is the nose, in this case the location of the upper heat shield. Apollo got a maximum aerodynamic pressure of 36.000 N/m². That's the same as the maximum an SR-71 Blackbird got. When an SR-71 landed, it was still so hot you couldn't touch it. Max Q was limited by the windows blowing out due to the expanded hot metal of the cockpit (!). We're talking about several hundred degrees Celcius here, 400°C is a good estimate. That is just stgnation temperature of the air at 3300 km/h. Note that Saturn V went faster during part of the ascent. It may be clear that the upper heat shield located on the nose of the capsule can be very useful in preventing this top heat from penetrating to deep into the capsule. Max Q can be taken as an indication of stagnation heat and as it is velocity dependent also gives a rough indication of friction heat.
The fact that you put "aerodynamic forces" and "hot air" in brackets is a striking example of your underestimation of the issue. Learn first, and tell NASA how to improve things later. A wild guess that turns out to be correct is worth less than understanding why something is wrong.
'nuff said and pardon for the long edit time.
Last edited by Nicolas; 2007-Feb-13 at 03:14 PM.
The capsules heat shield is designed for high temperatures and stresses, but not the Mylar thermal control layer and moisture barrier covering the exterior sides of the spacecraft. Note I wrote Mylar thermal control, not thermal protection. The Mylar is simply a layer of reflective material to reject solar radiation, thus providing passive thermal control for the capsule while in space. By the end of the mission this layer has already done its job, therefore it is allowed to burn away during reentry. However it must be protected during boost because it is critical to proper spacecraft operation.
Nicolas has also provided some excellents reasons for the inclusion of a BPC.
Then why do they call it a boost protective cover?
No, I think it might be necessary. You refuse to consider the possibility it might be needed because you know it creates a weight penalty.
Redesigning the LAS has little affect on the on-orbit payload mass as previously explained.
Your denial is noted.
I've changed a units mistake in my previous post. Point remains that during ascent, the stagnation temperature of the outside air becomes 400°C already at 3300 km/h.
Orion will be available in 2012, then, now, "nothing" is "already allocated" ...the internal SM hardware CAN be allocated to have the space for the abort motors with a small (or no) increase of the SM lenght and mass ...however, the MAX mass' saving of my (Orion+LAS) design is over 6 mT, then, also IF the SM will need 0.3-0.5 mT of extra-structure, my design STILL remains the BEST since I think that save 3-4 mT on the Orion+SM+LAS mass (the goal of my proposals) ALREADY is a BIG SUCCESS
you don't need to post the obvious... the SAFEST option (detach the abort motors in orbit) can be adopted ONLY if (thanks to a lighter Orion+SM+LAS) Ares-I will be able to put in orbit ALL THE REQUIRED PAYLOAD and (also) the small LAS motors ...of course, if Ares-I can't do that, the small abort motors must be detached in-flight a few seconds after the 2nd stage engine ignition (as planned in the current Ares-I flight) ...the giant mass' saving of my Orion+SM+LAS design can be used to... a) add more payload, or... b) increase the Orion's safety... well, since the payload launched will be sufficient, I suggest to use this huge mass' saving to increase the Orion's SAFETY...every extra kilogram of non-payload mass you carry to orbit, the payload must be decreased one kilogram...
no, this is not the weight of "my" LAS ...its only the mass of a tower-LAS for my (8 mT) TBS-Orion ...the weight of "my" LAS may be around 2.5-3.5 mT and the total (TBS-Orion + new-LAS + smaller-SM) mass may be around 20-21 mT (less than the max payload the Ares-I can lift to orbit) then, the Ares-I can send in orbit (both) "my Orion AND "my" LAS...use your numbers and say the tower LAS has a mass of 6,100 kg and your LAS has a mass of 5,000 kg...
worst but SAFESTCarrying your abort motors all the way to orbit is the worst thing you can do.
"my" LAS may weigh 2.5-3.5 mT and it's main purpose is NOT to carry more payload, but (thanks to smaller Orion and SM) to launch Orion with a smaller and cheaper rocket ...now the total (Orion+SM+propellent+LAS) mass is over 27 mT ...with my design the total mass may fall under 22 mT to launch the LUNAR-TBS-Orion with a smaller Ares-I or a Delta IV Heavy or an Ariane5 or a new AtlasV or a future Falcon or, or, or, or... (and an ORBITAL-TBS-Orion with a much smaller rocket!)...a 5,000 kg LAS...
no, despite the animation may suggest it, the protection panel never is detached ...only the four small motors are detached...a TPS protection panel that appears to detach along with the abort motors...
no, I've used the "panel" just as example ...the abort motors can be (simply) joined to the structure between the Orion and SM (so far we don't know how exactly it will be, so, I can't give any detailed suggestion)...then its mass reduces the payload...
Last edited by gaetanomarano; 2007-Feb-14 at 03:27 AM.
A small increase, yes. No increase, no. Any SM that has space allocated for abort motors will be bigger than one that doesnt have space allocated for abort motors. A bigger SM will weigh more.
With all due respect, I sometimes think I do.
Please provide your mass budgets for the following:
Nose cone with attitude control system
Attitude control propellant mass
Boost protective cover
TPS protection panel
Abort motor mass
Abort motor propellant
Jettison motor mass
SM structural modifications
exact... they CAN "alter things" in the next SEVEN years ...and... yes, they've (surely) done more than a .pdf in the design phase ...but we are just in the early days of Orion (so, everything may change)
agreed! ...it's a nice image! ...for schools... (and press releases) ...like other images I've seen, it's only the (official) sketch of a proposal... NOT a project... the final design CAN be different...first image that turns up is this nice, official, NASA schematic showing the current NASA parachute proposal...
the Attitude Control Motors can be placed in another position (IF necessary) like (e.g.) the top of the abort motors...on the attitude system...
just imagine that everything in a tower-LAS is made of similar materials... then, cut 40-60% of the tower-LAS volume (and mass...)...don't see arguments allowing for the quantitative results you show...
why? ...we don't have detailed specs ...but we know (at least) the tower-LAS dimension and mass ...it's sufficient to do some evaluations...refrain from make quantitative statements...
forces/problems aerospace engineers must face (an solve) everytime they design a supersonic jet or a spacecraft...dynamic pressure forces, friction forces, shock waves, turbulence, friction heat, stagnation heat..
what is uncorrect in my claim? ...the atmosphere slows the lunar capsule from 40,000 km/h to 500 km/h in a few minutes ...never said that a capsule can do that without be properly designed for a direct reentry from the moon...as you put it so nicely "that's true in the first minutes, but the atmosphere quickly slows the capsule"...
correct (and my opinion is that my assumption are very close to reality)...true if your other assumptions are also true...
that's true... I can give more accurate evaluations/calculations when NASA and LM will release DETAILED specs of the tower-LAS...don't know how much lighter...
in my opinion it's less risky to detach the LAS motors Orion in orbit than in-flight (it's SAFER like exit from a car when it stops rather than running at 200 mph...)Why is that a best suggestion?
because "my" Orion AND "my" LAS (with a smaller SM and less propellent) are under 21 mT (the Ares-I payload) while, to carry in orbit the tower-LAS, the Ares-I payload-to-orbit must be over 27 mTExactly what is not possible with the tower LAS?
as you can see from the flight profile image (below) the Ares-I will reach Mach 1.61 (less than 80% of the max [Mach 2.04] speed of a Concorde or less than 65% of the max [Mach 2.5] speed of an F-15 Eagle or less than 60% of the max [Mach 2.83] speed of a MiG 25...) at 12 km. of altitude while it will reach Mach 6.08 (less than 90% of the max [Mach 6.85] speed of the '50s X-15...) at 60 km. of altitude... and I'm sure that NASA and LM engineers will be able to build (with to-day's advanced materials and alloys) an Orion as good as a '50s X-15...
doneLearn first...
Which is even closer to the cg, requiring even more performant engines.the Attitude Control Motors can be placed in another position (IF necessary) like (e.g.) the top of the abort motors
Nothing is uncorrect in your claim, it's just very strange to use the "slowing down very fast in the atmosphere" as an argument why heating would not be a problem compared to LEO, as your original argument seemed to be.what is uncorrect in my claim? ...the atmosphere slows the lunar capsule from 40,000 km/h to 500 km/h in a few minutes ...never said that a capsule can do that without be properly designed for a direct reentry from the moon
Well, you'd better be a tad bit more sure about it as reality doesn't care about opinions and assumptions. You come with extreme mass figures, far better than anything NASA can do, it would only be polite to give them some basis. But Bob B already asked a question on that.correct (and my opinion is that my assumption are very close to reality)
Then, as I said over and over again, refrain from throwing quantitative estimates as semi-facts.that's true... I can give more accurate evaluations/calculations when NASA and LM will release DETAILED specs of the tower-LAS
Again reality doesn't care about opinions. WHY is it safer? And how about the track record of tower LAS detachments, how's the safety of thoroughly tested and proven hardware compared to new hardware?in my opinion it's less risky to detach the LAS motors Orion in orbit than in-flight (it's SAFER like exit from a car when it stops rather than running at 200 mph...)
Again this is an argument (the new LAS is safer) based on an assumption (the new LAS is lighter, 6 tons lighter(!) ) which you haven't verified yet, and in this case you haven't even verified the "safer" argument itself. You just think it's safer with no argument other than a car analogy (?) and for that you take a mass assumption as a given. BTW I can butcher your car analogy easily to prove the opposite: lightly throw a can out of the roof window of a car at 200 mph. bye-bye can. Lightly throw a can out of the roof window of a car standing still. Good chance it hits the roof. So please provide arguments that are based on the actual physics of ascent detachment versus in orbit detachment and show the latter is safer, indeed that much safer that it justifies the weight penalty (and don't fall back on unproven quantitative mass assessments to say in the end it's still lighter, as you DON'T KNOW that).because "my" Orion AND "my" LAS (with a smaller SM and less propellent) are under 21 mT (the Ares-I payload) while, to carry in orbit the tower-LAS, the Ares-I payload-to-orbit must be over 27 mT
[I'm glad quoting removes the bulk of formatting]as you can see from the flight profile image (below) the Ares-I will reach Mach 1.61 (less than 80% of the max [Mach 2.04] speed of a Concorde or less than 65% of the max [Mach 2.5] speed of an F-15 Eagle or less than 60% of the max [Mach 2.83] speed of a MiG 25...) at 12 km. of altitude while it will reach Mach 6.08 (less than 90% of the max [Mach 6.85] speed of the '50s X-15...) at 60 km. of altitude... and I'm sure that NASA and LM engineers will be able to build (with to-day's advanced materials and alloys) an Orion as good as a '50s X-15...
Thanks for posting that graph, I didn't find it so based myself on Saturn V data.
OK so let's take mach 6 at 60 km. Let's take NASA's X-15 measurements. At Mach 6, the stagnation temperature was around 2500°C. This is the temperature that would exist were the flow slowed down to standstill. This doesn't happen -the slowdown isn't complete- but still there will be a huge temperature increase. 650°C has been probed at mach 6, and that is for a nice aerodynamic design. The windshield has cracked due to the heat. The X-15 had an advanced heat protection system, in case of model 2 even an ablative one. They don't put on an ablative heat protection system just for fun. The leading edges had a different, even more heat resistent material. This setup indeed makes you think of the upper heat shield on Orion.
This is a nice NASA quote:
Don't you think this is an excellent argument for the BPC? Don't you think the high temperatures -650°C skin temperature for X-15 at mach 6- are what requires a top heat shield, and the chutes -a very critical system featuring gaps in the surface- are protected behind that heat shield because they need to be protected against heat channeling as described in the quote?An important lesson learned from the X-15 was that small gaps or protrusions on the surface of the aircraft can get extremely hot and can act like a blowtorch, channeling high-temperature gas into areas that could be damaged, like the wells around the landing gear.
This is what was the importance of the discussion: the need of a BPC and upper heat shield. You've provided the relevant flight conditions, but you didn't draw the conclusion.
Yes they will be able to build it. But they will require the BPC and upper heat shield.
Honestly, the reason I prefer NASA's solution over Gaetano's is because NASA has a proven track record of successful aerospace analysis, design, and operations. I think they've earned the right to simply publish a .pdf of their conclusions, without having to show their work, and have it accepted provisionally by the rest of us.
Gaetano has no such track record, so I would very much like to see the work that led to his conclusions.
It is my impression you have seen it.
I do hope to be corrected on this one.
rockets, LEM, LAS and SM all have attitude control jets and, for every kind of vehicle (and cg) the engineers can put them where they think (and tests showes) is the right place
heating is not a problem for a (properly designed) Orion or TBS-Orion (that is mainly a resized lunar-Orion with lunar-TPS)...heating would not be a problem...
a tower-LAS is not made of titanium in some parts and of cotton in other parts... starting from the known tower-LAS' dimensions and mass, I've just made some reasonable evaluations...extreme mass figures...
(reasonable) "semi-facts" are better than nothing to evaluate and discuss a proposal...semi-facts...
my opinion is that it's safer to detach the abort motor without any (LAS or rocket) engine burning (and the example of the car explains why I think that)WHY is it safer?
as I've said many times, carry the small LAS motors can happen only if the max mass reduction will be possible, of course...you haven't verified yet...
I really WONDER you don't see HOW MUCH SAFER is throw your can when the car stops! (especially if your car will be damaged by a can throw out at 200 mph...)...lightly throw a can out of the roof window of a car at 200 mph. bye-bye can. Lightly throw a can out of the roof window of a car standing still...
why? ...your "car and can at 200 mph" example is fine......please provide arguments that are based on the actual physics...
true, I can't know it now, but I suggest to adopt this (safer, in my opinion) option ONLY if the final TBS-Orion will be very light and the Ares-I can lift that (unused) extra-payload...mass assessments to say in the end it's still lighter, as you DON'T KNOW that...
until burn the 2nd stage engine at 80 km. of altitude, the Orion will fly just A FEW SECONDS (probably less than 30 sec.) at (both) Mach speed AND dense atmosphere (to have more friction and high temperatures) while the X-15 flight (from B-52 drop) duration was up to 11 MINUTES at speeds near Mach 7 and GREAT PART in the dense atmosphere plus (probably) also with more inclination (since the X-15 was a winged rocketPLANE, not just a rocket) ...but, assuming that your "650°C" figure for the peak Orion temperature may really come true, it will be LOWER than the max external temperature the Orion (including the parachutes' shell) will reach (for much more time) at reentry, due to the hot plasma... and I'm sure that NASA and LM engineers (with 2010's [X-15 + 50 years] advanced technology) will be able to give a proper protection to your (so far, just supposed) "capsule gaps" (a pure guess, since the Orion doesn't exist) WITHOUT build for it a second, larger and useless (1-2 mT) metallic capsule duplication that covers the Orion like a giant (and heavy) space-condom......650°C...
Last edited by gaetanomarano; 2007-Feb-14 at 10:28 PM.
clearly, without (now unavailable) detailed data about the tower-LAS parts' mass, I can't do any exact calculation/evaluation (this is the reason I give a "range" of 2.5-3.5 mT in my evaluation of the newLAS' mass) ...however, I'm curious to know your evaluation (just a guess) of the tower-LAS parts' mass:
Boost Protective Cover ...... kg.
Adapter Cone ...... kg.
Abort Motor ...... kg.
Abort Motor propellent ...... kg.
(each) Interstage ...... kg.
Jettison Motor ...... kg.
Canard Section ...... kg.
Attitude Controls Motors ...... kg.
Nose Cone ...... kg.
Except that your spacecraft doesn't stop. At the time of tower jettison the vehicle is going something like 2-2.5 km/s, while in orbit it is going 7.8 km/s. I think you mean when it stops accelerating.
As I've attempted to explain, the mass penalty of carrying the abort motors to orbit is dramatic compared to jettisoning them during ascent. If your goal is to save weight, carrying the abort motors to orbit is certainly counter to that objective.
Last edited by Bob B.; 2007-Feb-14 at 11:48 PM. Reason: spelling
right, "accelerating" is the correct word ...also, the risk doesn't come from the rocket's speed but from the relative speed between the Orion-"car" and the LAS-"can"
that's true, infact I suggest to add that extra-safety ONLY if the TBS-Orion and the new-LAS will be adopted AND the mass' saving will be over 6 mT AND the Ares-I will be able to lift the planned 22+ mT payload to carry in orbit BOTH the required (lighter but full functional) Orion's paylaod AND the smaller new LAS ...if one of these conditions can't be achieved, the suggested extra-safety can't be added...If your goal is to save weight, carrying the abort motors to orbit is certainly counter to that objective.
You have failed to provide a convincing argument that your proposal is safer. In fact, all your arguments seem to take to form of trying to convince us the tower-LAS is unsafe because it might not detach, despite having well over 100 cases of tower LAS being used on manned launches without a single detachment failure. You are trying to win the argument by poisoning the well, but the tower-LAS performance record doesn't justify your claims.
In fact, your proposal is far riskier from a detachment standpoint because you have at least two components that must be jettisoned while the tower is only one piece.
That does not go into the remark that when placed closer to the cg, the performance needs to increase.rockets, LEM, LAS and SM all have attitude control jets and, for every kind of vehicle (and cg) the engineers can put them where they think (and tests showes) is the right place
You've only showed that the cars "analogy" can be used to prove anything (safer/not safer). I ask you again, work with the actual physics of being in stable orbit versus ascent. There are some important arguments to be made that are quite lost in the car "analogy".cars cars cars
-re-entry works on the bottom of the capsule. Ascent on the top. I've explained that before. Assume the max skin temperature is for example 400°C instead of 650°C. Still requires an upper heat shield in any case, and depending on the capsule design it could use a BPC against heat channeling.until burn the 2nd stage engine at 80 km. of altitude, the Orion will fly just A FEW SECONDS (probably less than 30 sec.) at (both) Mach speed AND dense atmosphere (to have more friction and high temperatures) while the X-15 flight (from B-52 drop) duration was up to 11 MINUTES at speeds near Mach 7 and GREAT PART in the dense atmosphere plus (probably) also with more inclination (since the X-15 was a winged rocketPLANE, not just a rocket) ...but, assuming that your "650°C" figure for the peak Orion temperature may really come true, it will be LOWER than the max external temperature the Orion (including the parachutes' shell) will reach (for much more time) at reentry, due to the hot plasma... and I'm sure that NASA and LM engineers (with 2010's [X-15 + 50 years] advanced technology) will be able to give a proper protection to your (so far, just supposed) "capsule gaps" (a pure guess, since the Orion doesn't exist) WITHOUT build for it a second, larger and useless (1-2 mT) metallic capsule duplication that covers the Orion like a giant (and heavy) space-condom...
-inclination is not the most relevant for the max temperature. Maximum slowdown of air is more relevant. This will be less for X-15, which is nicely aerodynamically shaped, than for Orion, which is a simple cone.
-Please refrain from rebouncing arguments used against your claims when not applicable. Addressing the danger of possible heat channeling for Orion is not "a pure guess", as any capsule has small and large gaps, protrusions and the like. From the top of my head some possibilities:
* venting holes
* parachute outlets
* seams
* attitude control systems
* radiators
* antennas
* door
In short, anything other than a smooth, flat, seamless shape is a candidate for heat channeling problems. That's why the shuttle is loaded with filler materials (and we've seen the safety of those...). That 's why a BPC is handy (along with other reasons in favor of a BPC): it temporarily makes the capsule more smooth and seamless, without making the design of the capsule itself more difficult and heavy (the shell will be heavier than the nomex system it features now), and on top of that is a heat protection layer in itself. A realistic capsule design, especially one that should be light while in space, has loads of things that could trigger heat channeling or shouldn't become too hot in general. That is not a "pure guess" or "just supposed", but the reality as seen in any capsule designed thus far. Yes, a capsule could be designed to perform fine without a BPC. This means that the capsule itself has to be designed such that there were no heat channeling problems or parts prone to overheating, and all additional weight from these features would have to be carried all the way to the moon, unlike a BPC which is used when required and then gotten rid of. Your aptly called space condom, also called fairing or in this case BPC, is what is seen in all launchers I could think of, except for the shuttle (which works with the tile mess). That may be because it's a good (as in feasible) approach, no? After all, when having a BPC (you need an upper heat shield on the capsule anyway, unless you would totally decouple the capsule, as sats inside a fairing are), you can design your capsule less stringent, hence have less package weight going to the moon, and who knows even end up with a lighter design in total. Where in your reasoning do I see the capsule weight penalty of designing a capsule such that it can withstand ascent without BPC? A weight penalty that goes all the way to the moon. Where do you address the other advantages of having the BPC, such as the previously summed up protective features and aerodynamic improvement it offers, such as impact protection? The BPC is not ONLY there to protect against the tower firing. Let's not forget that Griffin's proposal, which did not have a BPC, was found less optimal than a tower with BPC. Not saying this is solely due to the BPC or even despite the BPC. But it is something to remember.
Again a huge lack of pro/con in your argumentation. Your proposals are presented as pro/pro/pro only (or con/con/con the other alternative). A good designer thinks of the cons of his own design as well, and is willing to present them.
I don't know the numbers on mass penalty of a BPC, a capsule that has to take care of heat channeling issues itself, and the overall penalty of taking this mass all the way versus only durin ascent for the BPC. NASA has far more data on this and knowledge to assess this, and in the end they decide to go for a BPC. If they had seen ways of saving 1 to 2 mT just by redesigning to a non-BPC craft, they would have done so. Apparently they found no such way. And assuming that is because they're not smart enough to come up with any general idea remotely like your proposal is less likely and more arrogant than assuming your proposal does not live up to the advantages it seems to offer on first sight. The same goes for the other tons of savings you propose. Sure the Orion can be designed lighter. But the simple multiton saving proposals of yours are far likely unrealistic than simply not thought of by the NASA engineers. Though unlikely, one person can come up with an idea a whole team overlooked. 5-6 tons worth of overlooked ideas on the capsule and LAS alone, is more than extremely unlikely though.
Last edited by Nicolas; 2007-Feb-14 at 11:57 PM.
You have yet to show your assumptions are reasonable before they're fit for any evaluation.(reasonable) "semi-facts" are better than nothing to evaluate and discuss a proposal
And I've made the same argument for using a BPC you can drop versus carrying the increased mass of heat protection fixed to the capsule (other than the heat shield required in both cases, but possibly lighter when having an additional BPC) to orbit. Of course having or not having a BPC cuts both sides, but there certainly is an argument to make for carrying protection only in the flight phase it is needed.
And then there's things such as ease of initial separation and continued separation, which you didn't address at all.also, the risk doesn't come from the rocket's speed but from the relative speed between the Orion-"car" and the LAS-"can"
Someone with more facts than I has already done so...
LAS-046 Weight Statement Summary
Note that the 1-2mt "space condome" Gaetano speaks of in reality will be closer to 700-1000 kg (majority of the thermal protection system + part of the strucural weight, I assumed 20-50%, thoug hI think 50% is quite a large estimate). Apollo's BPC was 318 kg, for Orion's LAS it's a bit hard to tell at the moment as the total system's weight assessment is split in things such as "thermal protection" and "structure".
thank you Bob B. ...and (I'm sorry) but I must admit I've made a BIG mistake!!! ...no no ...not about my proposals...
I read too much articles, blogs, posts, documents, webpages, .pdf, etc. ...and sometime my CPU goes to overload...
I've (and download every day) dozens of links, images and pages, so, I've too much files to remember and consult...
when I've made the newLAS' article, I've searched in my database the image of a detailed LAS, found in a .pdf file...
but the LAS' image I've found was without any data about the mass of parts and I've founded my article only on it...
that despite I've the RIGHT image (below) from six months on a .pdf file of the Aug. 2006 Orion's press conference... :surprised
so, I've guessed, guessed and guessed about the LAS parts' mass, while, the full (or sufficient) data was available...
then, after the Bob B. "remember bell" I've searched on the web and found the image that already was on my HDD... (smile/image #9 not allowed: rolleyes)
ok, I'm sorry ...then... << REWIND...
from the (standard Orion) tower-LAS image we have these specs:
tower-LAS GLOW: 6,176 kg.
tower-LAS dry mass: 3,696 kg.
tower-LAS propellent: 2,480 kg. (that include the Jettison Motor propellent)
from the tower-LAS propellant mass we can do an evaluation of the four small Abort Motors GLOW (including motors' case & nozzle) for the STANDARD 9.5 mT Orion, by comparison with other solid rockets like the Delta GEM-60 that has:
33.8 mT GLOW
29.5 mT propellent
3.85 mT dry mass (about 10% the weight of the full rocket)
then, the four motors of "my" LAS for a standard Orion may weigh 2,480 kg. + 248 kg. = 2,728 kg. in total
while, the four motors of "my" LAS for a (15% lighter) 8 mT TBS-Orion may weigh less than 2.3 mT (only!!!)
of course, we must include the LAS/Orion Nose Cone and LAS Attitude Jets dry mass (maybe, 0.5 mT) and we have that...
>>>>>>>>>> "my" LAS weight is 2.8 mT <<<<<<<<<<
...and excellent mass' saving over the 6.1 mT tower-LAS !!!
Last edited by gaetanomarano; 2007-Feb-16 at 01:28 AM. Reason: text fix
Ive been thinking about the two LAS proposals and I can find absolutely no way to justify Gaetanos outrageous mass saving claims. Gaetanos design is more or less a simple reconfiguration of the LAS components. Claiming a mass reduction of 50% is just not credible.
Here is a breakdown of the major components of the tower LAS and my evaluation of how they measure up to the comparable parts of Gaetanos underside LAS
Both systems require a nose cone, but the tower nose cone is much smaller than the Gaetanos capsule nose cone.
Advantage: Tower
Both systems require attitude control but the tower configuration is favorable due to its longer moment arm. The tower can achieve the same torque with smaller thrusters and less propellant.
Advantage: Tower
Extending the canard provides drag that causes the capsule to turn around and stabilize into a blunt end forward attitude. Gaetano has eliminated this, thus the same function has to be performed by the attitude control system. Ill call the mass of the canard versus the extra propellant a wash, but Ill give the advantage to the canard for simplicity and reliability of design.
Advantage: Tower
See post #364 for revisions and/or additional comments.
The tower includes several interstage adapters that Gaetanos design does not require, however the underside configuration will require a small enlargement of the Service Module to accomodate the abort motors. Ill call it a wash.
Advantage: Even
Gaetanos design does not require the adapter cone, though it does need a larger nose cone (see nose cone above).
Advantage: Underside
Despite Gaetanos denial regarding the need for a BPC, both designs will require it as nicely explained by Nicolas.
Advantage: Even
Gaetano claims no jettison motors are required but I cannot accept this. The abort motors will have to be thrown clear of the launch vehicle at jettison to avoid a possible collision. This might be achieved by spring mechanisms, but the issue cannot be simply ignored.
Advantage: Even
See post #364 for revisions and/or additional comments.
Im seeing no clear overall mass advantage to either design; therefore both will require essentially the same amount of abort propellant. Both designs have four nozzles and I see no edge to either in casing weight (one large vs. four small casings).
Advantage: Even
Furthermore, lets consider the following
This is something Gaetano has added to his design that is not required in the tower design. Since this panel cannot be jettisoned it must be carried to orbit and all the way to the Moon. This results in a significant weight penalty to the underside design.
Advantage: Tower
I see the tower as the more stable configuration due to its higher moment of inertia and the respective locations of the center of mass and center of pressure.
Advantage: Tower
Total Score
Tower: 5
Underside: 1
Even: 4
Winner: Tower
Last edited by Bob B.; 2007-Feb-15 at 02:27 PM. Reason: as noted