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The apology line forms on the left. Please take a number.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 20:49 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 21:10 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Paranoia is one thing. Refusal to even look around at easily available facts, or send questions to Apache for a quick confirmation, is pathetic.
Congratulations for being the first one to attain this august level of legal research and deductive logic. This level of accomplishment apparently is out of reach for the typical Lwn.net author or commenter.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 21:17 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 21:30 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
I don't see why you are so resistant to acknowledging that a volunteer-led project will work on what it considers to be its priorities and do so on its timetable. We do not take orders from random bystanders. Sorry, that's not how it works. Your impatience is irrelevant to me. Help if you want. Complain if you want. But your worth is not decided by your complaining.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 21:48 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 22:07 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
What you fail to understand, or at least appreciate, and by failing to understand this entirely miss the Big Picture about Apache, is that our releases are the way we benefit other projects. It is the scrutiny and review we give to code, as part of our pre-release reviews, that make it much safer for others to use. Our releases procedures are focused on preparing source distributions that others can use, to build derived products from. We carefully review file headers, produce aggregated LICENSE and NOTICE files, carefully verify that we can build from our source tarballs, etc. Our due diligence reduces risk and raises the comfort level that others have in using the code. That's what Apache does. We don't just slap an Apache License on things, hold our nose and toss it over the wall.
You seem to acknowledge this when you express impatience that we have not done this further review work already. LibreOffice acknowledges this when they merge in code form our releases and rebase their entire product on the released Apache code.
As for your assertion that the "ASF chose to take on the role of stewardship of this code". You are in error there. There has been no vote on this. SGA contributions do not require a vote. A release requires a vote. That is when we make the greater claims, as I have explained at greater length previously.
As for this article, the inaccuracies are legion, and I've rebutted several of them in another comment. But life is too short to waste time with a pedantic correction of every error.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 22:32 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
The SGA places conditions on the ASF, so I'm sceptical that it can be in effect without explicit agreement on the part of the ASF. I'm assuming that writing a significant body of racist invective, dropping it into a C file and then sending it to apache.org along with a signed SGA would not result in it automatically appearing in a subversion repository. You chose to accept this code, and in doing so you accepted that you would be taking responsibility for it.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 22:48 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
So you are equivocating, redefining terms in an attempt to rescue a failed argument and apparently proceeding without any aim other than to argue. That is a sign that it is time to end this pointless discussion.
As always, anyone with a serious interest in Apache OpenOffice can find our mailing lists and ask questions there. Those who wish to speculate without facts, exhibit paranoid delusions, or pontificate about what other volunteers should be doing will find pleasant company here on Lwn.net Or just wait until next week for Slashdot. It's cheaper.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 22:56 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:17 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
So if you put a "racist screed" in a C file (or preferable C++) and hid it within an SGA contribution, it could get into SVN. But as soon as it was found, it would be removed.
And if we found a Microsoft-owned header file in the contribution, then that would be removed.
And if we found a functional error then that would be fixed.
And if we found a security flaw, then that would be fixed.
And if a license header was wrong, then that would be removed.
This is all done as part of making an Apache release. This is all done openly, transparently on our mailing lists. (Subversion commit messages are echoed to a public mailing list).
When you think of it, how else would you transparently review, within a community, a software contribution, unless you first put it into a public repository where everyone could view it?
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:24 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:33 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 3:48 UTC (Fri) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
Rob Weir being an IBM employee, working in the division that developed Symphony, is very aware about what the Symphony code base contain... Heck, surely IBM use source control internally, and surely know exactly while line come from Sun, which come from IBM and which come from 3rd party...
But Rob also is in charge of building an eco-system of volunteer to support IBM effort to take control of OpenOffice.org. So he came up with a new twist on the so-called 'liberal license'... sure once you have it you can keep your modifications for yourself and distribute then under the term you want (non-copyleft)... but in order to achieve that you must come and work for Rob to integrate the piece you want into Rob's project of choice, before you can consider using that code for your own purpose...
Hey, why not ? it is a trick as good as another to try to 'attract' contributors... I'm learning every day about 'The Apache Way'.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" Upton Sinclair - I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked (1935)
Posted Jan 18, 2013 4:42 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
If you want a fully reviewed code base, then you'll need to wait for an official release containing that code. But no one is forcing you to wait for the release.
And if you think the wait is too long for your purposes then you are welcome to help us integrate it. But no one is forcing you to do that. You can always just take the un-reviewed code as is. Or wait for a release.
So the choice is really yours.
What you cannot do, at least not with any respect or credibility, is refuse to take the code as-is, refuse to help integrate it, and just whine about it endlessly.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 20:26 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link]
There is code in the SVN which may or may not be available under an open license. No on can know whether this code is open until and after Apache has reviewed the code, confirmed and voted that it is freely available. Otherwise you are at your own risk on whether it's freely available and because the official signed agreement (and any containing provisions) is not available well you are going to be pretty much guessing. (this is the first post out of more than a dozen in which you've freely admitted this after berating people on how simple it is)
This [code review] process will not be completed until and after the code has been inserted into the working Apache OO.org code, anything not deemed "worthy" of the Apache OO.org codebase will not be processed at this time and could in the future become lost code. (you have no intent to review or ascertain ownership of any code you don't use in the Apache OO.org codebase).
Not only that, but Apache will not help anyone sort out confusion on any piece of code unless that code follows the above process and is merged into Apache OO.org codebase first.
The only way for Apache to confirm any piece of code is actually under it's stewardship is for that code to end up in Apache OO.org.
Finally, Even if volunteers only wanted to help sort ownership of the SVN code and NOT integrate it into Apache OO.org they would be refused as the only help being asked for and accepted is to integrate into the Apache codebase. Apache will provide no assistance in ascertaining ownership of any code which is not used in Apache OO.org codebase.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 20:55 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:01 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
So your choice is really whether waiting for an Apache release, with the additional review we put into it is important to you. Many of our users feel that this is indeed important to them.
In fact, I'd say that LibreOffice also agrees on this, since they waited for the Oracle contribution of OpenOffice to be reviewed and approved by us before rebasing their product on it. So their confidence in changing the project's license from LGPL to MPL was only possible because of the careful review we did on the OpenOffice contribution.
But if you don't feel that the benefits of that extra review is worth the wait then don't wait. But also don't cry about it.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:33 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Since the SGA is provided by someone asserting that they are providing a certain set of rights, then the risk of hosting the code is very low. Similarly, Lwn.net can host your comments, and mine, without first checking for copyright infringement, because as part of your account setup you asserted that you would not post infringing material.
With unreleased code, your confidence must be based on your own review. That doesn't make it unknowable. It just means that it is your responsibility.
For released code, Apache projects do extensive review, and you can choose to accept (or not) that due diligence as sufficient for your needs. We do this transparently on our mailing lists and we have a reputation for getting it right. That is part of the value we add.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:24 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
You're behaving as if code has no value until it's been through the Apache release process. Going through that process undeniably adds value, but it's potentially useful to others even without that. IBM provided a grant of permissions to a body of code - it would take very little time for you to explicitly pass on that grant (including appropriate disclaimers), and in the process you would make it much easier for others to make use of the code in advance of it working its way through your release process. Does that really seem like an unreasonable request?
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:47 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
In fact, there were concerns expressed by LibreOffice at the time we made the contribution, that if we contributed it, that we would force it down Apache's throat and replace OpenOffice with Symphony. But that is not how it works. We provided the Symphony source. It was put in a separate directory, segregated from the OpenOffice source. And then we discussed, openly and transparently what to do with it. The community -- not IBM -- decided it would be best to selectively merge in enhancements from Symphony into OpenOffice, and that is what we are doing.
Now you can say that the code might be "potentially useful to others" if we made a different choice. Perhaps. But I can also say that it will be very useful to millions based on the direction we agreed on, as a community, to make. But in the end, the decision is made by the volunteers who do the work, not by complaining bystanders.
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:52 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:14 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Your main complaint seems to be with a project decision not to release the Symphony contribution itself as an Apache product. But that was the consensus of the project. The decision was to merge it into OpenOffice.
But here's an idea. If you really want to see an Apache project based on Symphony, then you can make a proposal for that, to the Apache Incubator project. Propose a new project, based on that source code, and find volunteers to help you work on it. More experienced Apache members will help you understand the requirements for reviewing the code and getting fully in conformance with Apache release requirements. If you get the equivalent of 5 or 6 full time engineers working on it then you can probably do it in 2 or 3 months.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:20 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:27 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:33 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:44 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
To your other point, if someone wants a favor from IBM then I suspect that a courteous, well-reasoned request to an IBM email address might get greater consideration then rude sniping and demands via comments. Just saying.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 1:05 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
But ok. Let's put this another way. If I provided a patch that added a new document to the top level of the symphony svn tree, containing a list of files that the existing README implied were available under liberal terms and explicitly indicating that (barring accidental inclusion of third party code) these files could be redistributed under those terms, could that be merged?
Posted Jan 18, 2013 1:30 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
But if that is the root cause of your confusion, then I'll look into providing that list in Subversion.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 1:34 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:33 UTC (Fri) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]
Ah, we finally get the explicit admission that this is being made difficult on purpose.
All you guys need to do is stick a README file in that directory, explicitly transferring the rights you have to it, to the rest of the community. You consistently refuse to understand this, professing ignorance, but the quoted sentence is the real reason.... you're actively uninterested in making life any easier for the competition.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:47 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Downstream consumers of our code will benefit greater, after our source distributions have been carefully reviewed, voted on and released. That is how Apache works. We're not interested in slapping our license and brand on code, flipping it or acting as money launderers for the open source community. When we release code it means something.
Posted Jan 23, 2013 19:42 UTC (Wed) by juliank (subscriber, #45896) [Link]
Posted Jan 23, 2013 20:01 UTC (Wed) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]
In other words, you're going to keep it to yourself as long as you possibly can, to try to damage LibreOffice. A simple README transferring your rights to the broader community would shut everyone up, but you refuse to do that, because you want the competitive advantage. And you're saying so, right here, a second time.
After your posts here, I think a lot less, a LOT less, of the Apache Foundation.
Posted Jan 23, 2013 23:28 UTC (Wed) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
No LibreOffice programmer has expressed interest in using this code, has said they lack permissions to use the code, or has even come to our mailing list to ask for clarification about what the license on these files is.
Please send me a link if you believe I am in error.
No one from Apache has ever said that the "broader community" does not have rights to use these files.
Posted Jan 24, 2013 16:35 UTC (Thu) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]
Sure. Check https://lwn.net/Articles/532665/
That is some seriously disingenuous bullshit you're pulling there. "No programmer has expressed interest", when the official spokesperson for a competing project is complaining about it. The spokesperson! For the whole project!
And all you can do is whine about no actual coders coming to you, hat in hand, when their entire project is officially saying that you're withholding the code?
This is easy to fix, but you're not interested in fixing it. An attitude like that does not belong in open source. You should be ashamed of yourself. We're supposed to all be on the same side. If you want enemies, and to be able to put slimy bullshit over on your competition, while furiously polishing your tin halo, go back to proprietary development, where that kind of crap belongs.
Stop arguing with me and go fix this.
Posted Jan 24, 2013 18:15 UTC (Thu) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
1) Italo is not a programmer. He is the LO marketing lead.
2) His message is not an "official communication" from the project. It is just an ill-tempered post from him on a mailing list.
3) It was not a query, request for clarification, etc., to Apache. If he wants something, he knows where to go for it. So do you.
4) He is wrong on his assertions.
But other than weak grasp of facts and logic, your analysis is impeccable.
Posted Jan 25, 2013 1:43 UTC (Fri) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link]
Per Corbet, he's (an? the?) official spokesperson for the project, to wit:
The specific suspect in question is Italo Vignoli, a director of the Document Foundation and spokesperson for the LibreOffice project.
Stop wasting time arguing with me. The fact that you're still replying to me, instead of just fixing it, is yet more proof that you want to sling words and do your damndest to slow down the competition, not help the open source community.
You're only interested in helping if people line up and do exactly what you say, in exactly the way you say it, which means you don't really want to help at all, you're looking for excuses not to. ("They're not programmers! They didn't ask on the right list! They're asking behind *gasp* a paywall!")
All excuses, and all transparent bullshit.
Posted Jan 25, 2013 2:16 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Difficult on purpose ???
Posted Jan 25, 2013 22:47 UTC (Fri) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]
Why on earth should Rob make his life difficult, to give you an easy ride?
The paper trail is designed, by Apache, to make Apache's life easy. How on earth can you stand there and claim that it was designed to be "being made difficult on purpose", just because it doesn't make *your* life easier!
The whole point behind Open Source is that people do things FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT but don't make life difficult for other people on purpose. Everything here I see implies that Rob and Apache are doing exactly that - they are not doing things to make your life easier, true, but equally they are not actively hindering you.
If their failure to act is harming you, you need to persuade them that that failure is not in their interest, not just moan about why they should put themselves out to make your life easy.
Cheers, Wol
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:52 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]
Unreasonable? No, but why would they spend time on this? Just because the competition is whining on LWN?
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:55 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 0:23 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
But as I showed in my response to the article, this is just wrong. The merging work is occurring in branches and anyone can follow the work there:
And did you even read the LO marketing director's post? He is even further out in left field, claiming that IBM never contributed code to Apache:
Posted Jan 18, 2013 4:29 UTC (Fri) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
The Article said:
"That, of course, is an entirely non-free license header. Interestingly, over 2,000 of those files also have headers indicating that they are distributable under the GNU Lesser General Public License (version 3). These files, in other words, contain conflicting license information but neither case (proprietary or LGPLv3) is consistent with the Apache license. So it would not be entirely surprising to see a bit of confusion over what IBM has really donated. "
Sure... _nothing_ to do with license clarity... at all!
To summarize:
1/ IBM and Apache announce that they have signed a secret legal document 2/ IBM PR announce that they have donnated something called 'Symphony' under AL2 license. Since the document describing what 'Symphony' actually _is_ is 'private, for all we know, what is cover be a Basic Applesoft program that play Beethoven 9th. 3/ An IBM employee dump a bunch of files with random license headers. 4/ Rob, another IBM employee claim that none knows what's in it until some undisclosed uniquely qualified person spend the time to 'inspect' it. Of course according to Apache's own policy, apache membera shall not touch the license/copyright header unless he is the owner... add to that that non-apache member have no access to the secret license document, so would be incapable of 'inspecting' the code's license in the first place. Which lead with the practical limitation that only IBM employees could safely touch that code...
5/ So in conclusion IBM has granted a license to Apache to make some publicly undisclosed list of file available under AL2. but in the end it is practically still only available to IBM.
1/ IBM has a private Island in the Bahamas... 2/ IBM announce in PR campaign that, in a burst of generosity, now the public will be allowed to visit the island. 3/ but... to visit you must first acquire the Island nationality, which can only be done via a Work visa and 3 years of continuous work on the island next to it... which happen also to be owned by IBM.
The OT trivia line forms on the right. Please take a number.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 5:15 UTC (Fri) by ghane (subscriber, #1805) [Link]
However, looking at the second article quoted above: http://lwn.net/Articles/532694/
"Please remember that Italian have invented fake donations back in the year 315, when the fake "Constantin donation" allowed the birth of the Vatican State and the power of the Popes (which are both based on a false document)."
If it *had* been created in AD 315, it would not have been a fake, would it? That's the whole point.
And now, back to your regular programming ... -- Sanjeev
Posted Jan 18, 2013 10:35 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]
Posted Jan 17, 2013 23:28 UTC (Thu) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
As seen in the case of the Oracle code drop this process takes a couple of months. IBM is not willing to do that for all the files (the simplest explanation is that they just don't have the resources to check every file they contributed).
In that sense the ASF is as much a third party as everybody else. Even though they have access the more legal files than other third parties. They still like the contributing company to make the changes necessary so the intended license of code and what the file actually claims matches.
They can nicely ask Rob Weir to check with his legal department and make the changes to benefit the wider community (and all Apache hackers), but they cannot force him or any other IBM employee/volunteer to do any of that work. In that sense IBM employees are as much volunteers as any other Apache contributor.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 4:34 UTC (Fri) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
<sarcasrm> Sure, IBM takes IP so lightly that they have published a software on the market (Symphony) while having no idea about the legal status of the source code of that product... </sarcasm>
Posted Jan 18, 2013 5:20 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
For example, when we reviewed the OOo code contributed by Oracle, we founds some errors and had to get them corrected with an amended SGA. Without our careful review, consumers of Apache OpenOffice, including LibreOffice, would have been worse off. For example, it would have introduced serious flaws into their rebasing of LO on AOO, and their subsequent license change to MPL, issues that could have caused them or their users trouble latter. So LibreOffice is already benefiting from our hard work in reviewing contributions. I'm certain they will continue to benefit in the future as well
If LibreOffice is interested in Symphony code (and they should be, lest they fall behind) then they should also want to see it carefully reviewed and brought into released form. That is in their best interest as well.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 6:53 UTC (Fri) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
Thanks for a good laugh... It is nice to see you keep an healthy sens of humour...
Priority of cleaning up unclear legal status
Posted Jan 18, 2013 8:39 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
IBM seems not very interested in the symphony code base anymore, they now have the (proprietary) IBM Docs (cloud based office) project. And clearly some people IBM assigned to the former symphony/apache project, like Rob Weir, have different priorities than helping out with cleaning up the legal uncertainties of the contributed files.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 12:33 UTC (Fri) by shmget (subscriber, #58347) [Link]
nah... they are very much aware. The the mail below from ooo-dev show clearly that it is deliberate.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:04 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:29 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
But if you wanted certainty, then you would write to Apache on their legal-discuss list, ask questions about the SGA license, read the README that is posted for the Symphony code and see that this is actually quite simple.
The license is in the SGA:
The README tells what files are covered:
If you are not willing to accept that, then you are like the Obama-doubting "Birthers" who harbor paranoid delusions about his birth certificate unless they can waterboard the doctor who delivered him.
Hack or complain. Pick one.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:37 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:44 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Again, you seem to be harboring paranoia about what might be written on the reverse of Obama's birth certificate.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:48 UTC (Fri) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:59 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]
Rob appears to be trying to imply that Matthew is as paranoid as the conspiracy theorists known as "birthers", who think Barack Obama was not born a US citizen (despite his birth having been validly registered in the city of Honolulu, Hawaii, USA in 1961, which is after Hawaii's admission to statehood) and so is ineligible for the Presidency.
Tacky, Rob. Real tacky.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 16:16 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
On the other hand, there are some who actually have these delusions that there are secret exceptions and reservations ,and that this code was designed to tempt,lure and deceive LibreOffice, only to pounce on them later.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 16:47 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:02 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
Actually I believe you are both acting in good faith to clear up the self-evident confusion and that you two will have it sorted out shortly.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:16 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 19, 2013 16:24 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
I was not speaking of Matt. I was speaking of the post from the LibreOffice Marketing Director
Not at all. I don't for a second remotely think that Matt believes what he is writing. He is playing Devil's Advocate.
Posted Jan 19, 2013 23:56 UTC (Sat) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 20, 2013 0:00 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 20, 2013 0:10 UTC (Sun) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
You took the position of someone submitting a racist screen to Apache, a position you presumably do not agree with, for sake of debate, to test the quality of the original argument, etc.
Posted Jan 20, 2013 0:22 UTC (Sun) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
Posted Jan 20, 2013 0:29 UTC (Sun) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 19, 2013 16:22 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
The imputations of bad faith to Matthew (without any evidence) are a nice touch too. I have no *idea* how Matthew has kept his cool through all this, but if working on AOO means working with Rob I can see why LibreOffice is taking off.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:49 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
What extra information does that list contain? If the information contained within it isn't relevant, why am I being asked to refer to it?
Posted Jan 18, 2013 16:05 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Now would you agree that the status is clear, based on the README and the SGA license?
Posted Jan 18, 2013 16:21 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]
1) Add an explicit link to http://www.apache.org/licenses/cla-corporate.txt and the revision number in the preamble, just to avoid any potential doubts about whether "a Software Grant and Corporate Contributor License Agreement ("SGA ")" refers to the standard Apache one or a different one negotiated by IBM and the Foundation (in much the same way as "released under the terms of the GNU GPL" is ambiguous as to which version it refers to).
2) Add "These materials are contributed under the SGA" to point (2)
I think that those would make the intended copyright status completely unambiguous, but I think the change you've already made goes a long way.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 13:20 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Imagine if the project agreed to publish (release) the Symphony codebase. That would require months of up front work, but would also be an ongoing obligation. We would need to provide patches and do CVE reporting on discovered security flaws. We would need to track bugs. We would need to respond to user and developer queries. We would need to maintain the code and periodically come out with new releases.
We were certainly willing to do this, if the project wanted to make Symphony be the new base for the OpenOffice project. But after examining the code and lengthy discussions, the community decided against that path and decided on the "slow merge" approach, to take enhancements from Symphony and merge them into OpenOffice. That is fine. I can see the merit in that decision. It is less disruptive to users. It keeps us on the code base that more volunteers are familiar with, etc.
But once that decision was made, it no longer makes sense to release the Symphony code base, and take on those support obligations. To do so would be to have responsibilities to maintain and support two different code bases, Symphony and OpenOffice. Double the work. Who would want to do that? Remember, the point of the Symphony contribution was to end the Symphony fork and concentrate resources on a single project, not simply to maintain the fork to another venue.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 14:01 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
But you seem to misunderstand what people are asking for from IBM. Nobody is asking for a full blown ASF blessed Symphony release.
The current status of the symphony donation is unclear because the file headers don't match the intended license IBM says they wanted to grant to the ASF and the general public. As you say yourself IBM might have made mistakes in their SGA list or the code dump. And ASF policy is that only the contributor of the files can update the license headers. Without that having happened neither other Apache hackers nor the general public can really legally (re)use this contribution. By cleaning up the file headers and double checking their legal status you as IBM would not just help the general public, but also your fellow Apache hackers to work on integrating and completing the "slow merge" sooner.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 14:31 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Take a look at the README. The file headers tell you which files are IBM contributions, versus pre-existing OpenOffice files. And read some other, more perceptive comments on this same topic.
In any case, you seem to misunderstand what Apache projects do. We don't just take code, slap a new license header on things, hold our nose and toss it over the wall for public consumption. That is not how we operate. We're not the money launderers of the open source world. We do thorough reviews or we don't release at all. There is no Apache-lite release. I sense that you wish this were not the case, but it is.
And note that there is absolutely no issue for project members to touch the code. They already have. Indeed, with the Oracle SGA it took 6 months to clean up all the headers, and all along we were all working on the code base. So that is non-issue, more FUD.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:11 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]
The issue is precisely the indirect nature of the license grant. If IBM would clean up the header files that does give legal clarity (as opposed to anybody else changing those legal statements on the files).
People don't question the value of what Apache projects do. That is indeed much more than the single act of IBM clearing up the legal status of the files by cleaning up the headers.
Various Apache project members have stated on the mailinglist they feel not cleaning up the headers is a problem and they don't want to touch any of the files till IBM does that.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 15:32 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
You seem to be upset that we're not also maintaining a second fork of Symphony for the benefit of LibreOffice. Sorry, but no one has volunteered to do that. We're working on one codebase.
Posted Jan 19, 2013 16:26 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:07 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]
I'm guessing that there is probably legitimate disagreement on that point, there are many instances of code dumps where a dead project is released without any obligation for ongoing maintenance. The quicker that is done the quicker that others can pick over the corpse for juicy tidbits.
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:22 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
It would probably be very unsatisfying to develop new fantasies that Apache will do this for the Symphony contribution. The plan of record, as decided by the community, is to merge enhancements from Symphony into OpenOffice and release this code as part of Apache OpenOffice 4.0.
Remember, Symphony is not an entirely different code base. It is a fork of OpenOffice.org. We're just rejoining the codebases and ending the fork.
If LibreOffice is truly interested in having "juicy tidbits" from it, then it is in their best interest for us to merge the code into Apache OpenOffice, where they can cherry pick from it, just like their ongoing harvesting of features from OpenOffice 3.4.1. It will be much easier for them to have one code base to sync from, then deal with two.
Congratulations! [was: priority of cleaning up unclear legal status]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:33 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:42 UTC (Fri) by rcweir (guest, #48888) [Link]
Posted Jan 18, 2013 21:54 UTC (Fri) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link]
Copyright © 2013, Eklektix, Inc. Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators. Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds


text:
Dr. Charles McMellon
Associate Professor
Department of Marketing and International Business
Post-9/11 Advertising(WMV file - 4.1 MB)Media Literate Consumers(WMV file - 2.3 MB)Elderly Blogs(WMV file - 0.8 MB)Elderly, Technology and Identity(WMV file - 4.6 MB)Super Bowl Advertising(WMV file - 2.4 MB)Advertising to Children(WMV file - 4.1 MB) |
Dr. Charles McMellon is qualified to discuss:
- Consumer Behavior Aspects of New Media (e.g., the Internet)
- Advertising Management
- Advertising Strategy and Tactics
Dr. McMellon's articles have been published in the Journal of Direct Marketing, the Journal of Applied Gerontology, the Journal of Advertising Education, The Journal of Research and Issues in Advertising, Journal of Services Marketing, and Advances in Consumer Research. He has also published book chapters and book reviews, and has participated in many invited panels and presentations at academic conferences. Dr. McMellon is also the director of the full-time day M.B.A. program.
Dr. McMellon brings 24 years of advertising managerial experience at such firms as Young & Rubicam; Foote, Cone & Belding; and Ally and Gargano to his teaching at Hofstra. Prior to joining the faculty at Hofstra, Dr. McMellon spent three years teaching at the main campus of The Pennsylvania State University.
This expert is available for interviews. To contact this expert or other experts, please call the Hofstra University Public Relations office at (516) 463-6818.

subset: commoncrawl


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SOURCE Union Pacific
OMAHA, Neb., Sept. 11, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Rob Knight, chief financial officer of Union Pacific Corporation (NYSE: UNP), will address the Citi 2013 US and European Industrials Conference at 8:45 a.m. ET on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 in Boston, Mass.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20110304/LA59497LOGO)
Interested investors may view the presentation and listen to a live Internet webcast through our website at www.up.com/investors. A replay of the audio webcast will be available shortly thereafter on Union Pacific's Investor website.
About Union Pacific
Union Pacific Railroad is the principal operating company of Union Pacific Corporation (NYSE: UNP). One of America's most recognized companies, Union Pacific Railroad links 23 states in the western two-thirds of the country by rail, providing a critical link in the global supply chain. From 2007-2012, Union Pacific invested $18 billion in its network and operations to support America's transportation infrastructure, including a record $3.7 billion in 2012. The railroad's diversified business mix includes Agricultural Products, Automotive, Chemicals, Coal, Industrial Products and Intermodal. Union Pacific serves many of the fastest-growing U.S. population centers, operates from all major West Coast and Gulf Coast ports to eastern gateways, connects with Canada's rail systems and is the only railroad serving all six major Mexico gateways. Union Pacific provides value to its roughly 10,000 customers by delivering products in a safe, reliable, fuel-efficient and environmentally responsible manner.
For further information, contact Michelle Gerhardt at (402) 544-4227.
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'Number 5' is newly renovated to a high standard offering comfortable accomodation for upto 4 people. The cottage offers 2 bedrooms, spacious living room, bathroom and kitchen diner, an enclosed back garden, parking directly outside the front door and an attached garage.
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PE Capital Confidence Barometer (December 2013)
Economic confidence is at a two-year high, which should lead to an increase in fundraising and deal activity in 2014.
PE Capital Confidence Barometer (December 2013)
Financing the future energy landscape
Private equity opportunities in Mexico
Tax alert - New Circular issued by the Luxembourg VAT Authorities confirming that risk management services for funds could be VAT exempt
EYe on Luxembourg tax
Private equity roundup for China
The Luxembourg Financial Connection - Issue 20
Consumer-themed deals remain key for Latin America
Dealing with late transposition of AIFMD: ESMA opinion
Private equity: winning in a new era
Private Equity firms are operating today in an increasingly uncertain environment. After the global financial crisis, the most important lesson learned was: expect the unexpected. Alongside uncertainty and global economic volatility, Private Equity firms are facing a new era of regulation.
Luxembourg has been a major hub in the Private Equity industry for more than 20 years. Its main features attracting Private Equity houses from all over the globe are political and economic stability, a stable tax environment, a strong market infrastructure and a business-friendly environment. Luxembourg has always strived for the cutting edge and will do so going forward. The Grand Duchy will be amongst the first countries to implement the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive (the AIFMD) and continually works on further enhancing its footprint in the global Private Equity landscape.
The Luxembourg office of EY welcomes you to discover more about Private Equity in Luxembourg and how we can help you gain perspectives on issues and trends affecting the Private Equity industry, including:
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text:
1976 Ford tow Truck, Gray, Black steel body, 390 V8, 4 speed manual transmission with dual speed rear axle, Good brakes, and suspenson. Runs... More
1931 Glassic Ford Model Model A Rumble Seat Roadster, Factory Built, Tan with Black fenders, white top & side curtains, black interior, dual side... More
1937 Jaguar SS Replica, Red, Red & Black interior, Black top, 1650 CC 4 Cyl. Engine with serpentine Belt system, Heat & modern Air... More
1968 Chevrolet Camaro, Needs total Restoration, NO Motor or transmission. Floor has been replaced on driver's side. Good car to restore to your specs. ... More
1989 Mercedes 560 SEC Coupe, White with Blue Leather, 5.6-L V-8, Automatic, Fully equipted, AC, P.L., P.W., Sirris Radio as well as the original. ... More
1990 Chevrolet 2500 PU, White, Blue interior, 34k miles on new Goodwrench 350 crate motor, 700 R4 automaticP.S, P. disc Brakes, AC (Not working),... More
1968 Ford Mustang Convertible, Red, Black top, Black interior., 6 Cylinder, Automatic, Recent top & paint. Nice Black interior, Runs and drives well. No... More
1985 Nissan 300 ZX 2 Seater with Glass T Tops, Silver, Silver & Gray original interior, V-6, Automatic, P.S., AC, P. Mirrors, P. Locks, ... More
1997 Chevrolet Camaro Convertible, 30th Aniversary Edition, Green, Tan Top, Tan Interior, 3.8 L V-6, Auto, AC, P. S., P.B., P. Windows & Locks,... More
1973 Mustang Convertible, Pewter Melallic Silver, Black interior, New uninstalled black top, P.S., P Frt. Disc brakes, New Hurst wheels & Tires, AM- FM,... More
1973 Plymouth Road Runner, 340 V-8, Auto Torqueflite trans., Gray with Red Stripes, Original AC but not working, P. Frt. Disc brakes, P. Steering,... More
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado, Green, Green interior, Auto, Front Wheel Drive, Engine runs well, Needs restoring, has new brake lines, needs front brakes, Needs fuel... More
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text:
The city is basically split into two main districts — the
The Old Town: This is the largely medieval heart of Edinburgh in which most of its important historical monuments can be found, including
The Cowgate and Grassmarket areas are towards the southern end of the
Princes Street Gardens: These gardens fill the valley between
The Mound is bang in the middle of
The New Town: Whilst the
George Street is the centrepiece of the
Stockbridge & Dean are in the western part of the
Calton: At the east of the city, this hill is a popular spot for watching the Festival fireworks. The views of
Holyrood Park and Arthur's Seat: This area is just behind the
Duddingston: Located at the northeast end of Dunsapie Loch, this area is tranquil with a village feel.
Bruntsfield, Marchmont and Morningside: These southern suburbs offer large open spaces such as The Meadows and Bruntsfield Links. It is also the site of the medieval Burgh Muir (town heath) — used to isolate dying victims of plagues and for training armies. Marchmont is a popular student area.
Leith: A docklands area, Leith feels quite separate from the rest of the city - people here often prefer to say they're from Leith rather than from Edinburgh. It has its own financial centre, waterway (the water of Leith) and shopping/eating areas. A source of inspiration for Irvine Welsh's "Trainspotting", it is today the scene of a thriving café society. Leith Links, the park where the rules of golf were originally formulated, is a lovely place to stroll. The sport has been prohibited on this ground, however, since 1907.
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The huge rock upon which Edinburgh Castle now stands is a natural stronghold, and warring Celtic tribes would use it as such during the first centuries of the first millennium. King Edwin of Northumbria is thought to have built the castle here in the 7th century and the settlement's name was anglicised to Edinburgh. In 1018 King Malcolm II defeated the Northumbrians and Edinburgh Castle became Scottish.
Essentially the town took its starting point from the Edinburgh Castle, and developed down the slope of Castle Rock. In 1128 an abbey was founded at Holyrood, at the foot of the rock, and what's now called the "Canongate" took its name from the presence of its canons who founded a separate burgh there.
Since the 9th century there has been a church on the site where St Giles' Cathedral now stands, but little is known about it until the building founded by Alexander I in 1120.
The developing route — from the Edinburgh Castle, along Lawn Market & High Street (past St Giles' Cathedral), to Canongate became known as the "Royal Mile".
A brief spell under the English and some ferocious power struggles marked the 14th and 15th centuries. During this time, Edinburgh received a royal charter from Robert the Bruce and in 1498 Holyroodhouse Palace was built at the site of the Abbey. At this time Edinburgh was beginning to benefit from the trade and export of wool. Meanwhile, the "Old Town" was developing — creating the Grassmarket and Cowgate.
After a hefty defeat by the English, at the battle of Flodden in 1513, the people of Edinburgh began work on the Flodden Wall in a desperate attempt to defend themselves against possible invasion. Completed in 1560, it marked Edinburgh's boundary for the next 200 years.
Also in 1560 Protestantism was declared as Scotland's official religion. Two factions were now set against each other. They are best represented here by the two leaders who personified them in Scotland: John Knox, zealous Protestant reformer, and Mary Queen of Scots, pro-French Catholic.
Espionage and bloodshed suffused every level of Edinburgh society, most famously in an incident when Queen Mary could only watch in horror as her favourite and (alleged) lover, David Rizzio, was murdered by a group of noblemen in Holyroodhouse Palace under the orders of her husband, Lord Darnley. Their son became King James VI of Scotland in 1567, when he was 13 months old. In 1582 Edinburgh University was established, and 1603 saw the accession of James VI of Scotland to the English throne.
In 1633 Edinburgh officially became the capital of Scotland. Then, in 1707 the Act of Union joined Scotland to England and the Scottish parliament was dissolved.
By the 18th century it was decided to branch out of the city's original ("Flodden") walls — a "new town" was to be built. Scottish architect James Craig developed a simple grid design based around three parallel streets: Princes Street, George Street and Queen Street. This plan, and the beautiful Georgian architecture of which it is comprised, are still in place today.
The Victorian era was another time of expansion. Middle-class suburbs such as Marchmont and Morningside were born. The Edinburgh and Leith railway line was built in 1831, linking the port and industrial center with the capital city, and the Edinburgh and Glasgow line followed in 1842.
Many people associate modern Edinburgh with the Edinburgh International Festival, which has been keeping the city at the center of the international arts scene since 1947.
More recently still, the re-introduction of the Scottish parliament, three centuries after it was dissolved by the Act of Union, has meant a return of Scottish government to Edinburgh.
Edinburgh is such a popular city, the first piece of advice about accommodation is this — book in advance! This is particularly important around New Year (Hogmanay) and the Festival in August, when the city gets very crowded. The bulk of the hotels are in the New Town, but there are many other places to stay in the Old Town and on the outskirts of the city.
The main axis of New Town is Princes Street and unsurprisingly, there are many deluxe hotels here. At opposite ends of the street, The Balmoral and The Caledonian Hilton Edinburgh are both beautifully placed for the shops and the city centre. Fractionally lower down the price scale is Ramada Jarvis Mount Royal, also on Princes Street.
On George Street, set back from the bustle of Princes Street, George Inter-Continental Edinburgh offers deluxe accommodation in a slightly quieter location. The Roxburghe has Charlotte Square as its prestigious address.
Moving out of the center of New Town, accommodation is a mix of the deluxe and the inexpensive. To the north, the smart Albany Hotel enjoys a large business clientele, whilst Drummond House caters for the traveler on a budget. Towards the east, King James is a luxury location. Princes Street is still easily accessible from this area.
The West End is a smart and convenient location with a class of hotel to match. The Bonham and Channings are two of the most popular.
The North/South bridge that links New Town and Old Town is the site of two excellent hotels: the Paramount Carlton Hotel Edinburgh and the Bank Hotel. Although a relatively busy road, this area is very central, with both New Town and Old Town within walking distance. Waverley station is just around the corner from North Bridge.
The Cowgate, in Old Town, is a great place for backpackers to stay. Conveniently situated just below the bridges and the Royal Mile, it is a central location with a youth-culture flavour. Edinburgh Backpackers Hostel and Edinburgh Central Youth Hostel can both be found in this pub paradise.
The outskirts of Edinburgh can be an appealing choice for travelers who want to escape the noise of the city and stay near the airport. Barnton Thistle and Swallow Royal Scot are very comfortable options.
Leith is the perfect place for visitors who want shops and restaurants on their doorstep, but would rather not stay in Edinburgh itself. The city is about twenty minutes walk away and there are plenty of buses. Malmaison offers reasonably priced, comfortable accommodation here.
Dining and drinking in Edinburgh are fun and tasty pursuits. All manner of eateries and watering holes lurk around every corner. From traditional haggis haunts to romantic Italian restaurants, whisky-stained pubs to trendy bars — there is something to suit most cravings.
The city center offers many tastes and tipples and the Old Town is a great place to sup and pub. For a European flavour try The Grain Store, just off the Royal Mile, whose rather unpromising name belies the tasty Scottish/French fare served. Ciao Roma is just one example of the decent regional Italian eateries the city has to offer. To sample the native delicacies, try the haggis and tatties at the Doric Wine Bar & Bistro. For a contemporary dining experience of the highest quality, take the transparent lift inside The Museum of Scotland to The Tower Restaurant and Terrace . Pub-lovers should prop up the Bow Bar, just below Edinburgh Castle, and vegetarians should check out Bann UK. Fed up with whisky? Try vodka of all flavours imaginable at Bar Kohl.
Cowgate and Grassmarket are very popular drinking haunts. Try Bannerman's for a traditional pub atmosphere or wander down Candlemaker Row and check out Greyfriars Bobby. Driving? Maison Hector is great for non-alcoholic beverages.
Towards Holyrood Park, there are some good eateries near the Edinburgh Festival Theatre. Those with the Mexican munchies should try Mother's, whilst Ayatthaya serves great Thai food. At the Canongate end, the Holyrood Tavern's cozy atmosphere will help you nurse your pint.
On the other side of Princes Street Gardens, New Town has many treats worth sampling. Dining à la française is particularly satisfying here; the Café St Honoré offers excellent brasserie fare, whilst Pompadour is perfect for expensive French cuisine. For a continental luncheon La Cuisine d'Odile has a very good menu. Not to be outdone, the Italians and Spaniards are also well represented in New Town. Try La Rusticana or the Patio Restaurant for a taste of pasta/pizza paradise, or Tapas Tree for some great Hispanic nibbles. Kids in tow? Check out old favorite the Hard Rock Cafe, then drop the smalls home and relax with a late-night cocktail at Po Na Na.
Further out of town is the dockland area of Leith, a must for seafood seekers. All along the quays, fish restaurants can be found offering menus that are fresh from the ocean. If you're going to try any of them, make sure it's the charming Fishers Bistro at number one. Set back from the water, the Raj Restaurant's curries will put fire in your belly, but if you prefer lighter delicacies, the French seafood dishes at The Vintner's Rooms are wonderful. For an aperitif or one-for-the-road, Bar Java is a great start or finish to any night.
By keeping map refresh on, you will see new search results as you move the map.
Yes, keep on No, turn it off


text:
Russert and Cooper are order to testify in the Valerie Plame Case
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Mr Diplomacy
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Von Miller
First Amendment attorneys went to court in Washington today to ask a judge to quash the subpoenas served to the journalists who allegedly received a leak from White House officials about the identity of a clandestine CIA agent married to outspoken Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson. Ray Suarez discusses the latest developments in the case with New York Times national legal correspondent Adam Liptak.
The NewsHour Media Unit is funded by a grant from the Pew Charitable Trusts
Online NewsHour Report:
Media Watch
Sept. 30, 2003:
Terence Smith leads a discussion about the alleged leak of the identity of a covert CIA agent to at least six journalists, and the decision of syndicated newspaper columnist Robert Novak to report it.
Browse the NewsHour's coverage of the media
The White House
The Central Intelligence Agency
Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press
RAY SUAREZ: The search for an alleged leak from the Bush White House that exposed an undercover CIA operative recently reached the Oval Office.
President Bush was questioned for 70 minutes two weeks ago by the federal prosecutor investigating the case.
The exposed operative is the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Wilson was sent by the CIA in February 2002 to investigate intelligence claims that Iraq had sought to buy nuclear material from the West African nation of Niger. He found the reports groundless and advised the CIA. Despite Wilson's warning, the president pointed to the alleged uranium purchase in last year's state of the union address as evidence that Iraq sought banned weapons.
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.
RAY SUAREZ: Wilson went public with his concerns last July 6 in an op-ed page piece for The New York Times, disputing the president's remarks.
On July 14, his wife was named in a syndicated column by conservative writer and CNN contributor Robert Novak. Novak reported that Wilson's wife had interceded to have her husband investigate the Niger claim. Wilson alleges that the White House revealed his wife's name in an effort to intimidate him and others who disagree with White House policy. The CIA said it tried strenuously to dissuade Novak from identifying Wilson's wife so as not to endanger her, or any agents she might have worked with. Novak disputed that characterization.
George Tenet, the departing director of Central Intelligence, asked the Department of Justice to investigate last year. Attorney general John Ashcroft recused himself from the investigation, so it was handed over to Patrick Fitzgerald, the U.S. attorney in Chicago.
The federal prosecutor convened a grand jury and subpoenaed NBC's Tim Russert and Time magazine's Matt Cooper. Both men's organizations are fighting the subpoenas. One reporter agreed to be questioned by prosecutors: Glenn Kessler of The Washington Post.
The media's efforts to quash the subpoenas
RAY SUAREZ: Joining me now is Adam Liptak, national legal correspondent for The New York Times, who's also a former First Amendment lawyer. Adam, welcome. What was the basis that the media companies put forward for suppressing these subpoenas?
ADAM LIPTAK: You know, I have to say that these were sealed secret hearings. We don't know for sure, but I have a pretty good idea what sorts of argument they would make.
They would say that it's a fundamental bedrock importance to journalists to be able to keep their promises to confidential sources because if they can't keep those sources' identities confidential, other people won't come forward with important information about how the government works, and as a consequence the flow of information to the public will be stifled, and we're better off with a system in which reporters are allowed to keep their promises.
RAY SUAREZ: Even if the judge agrees with that line of reasoning, is he bound by the law at the federal level? Are there laws that give reporters that kind of protection, the ability to make conversations they have privileged?
The rights of journalists to protect sources
ADAM LIPTAK: Reporters like to think that we have that privilege, but the sad fact, particularly in the federal courts, is that it's quite limited. The Supreme Court has never endorsed a reporter's privilege based on the First Amendment or the common law, and Congress has not seen fit to pass a shield law.
So in the federal courts we have very weak protections, and these reporters are facing an uphill fight.
RAY SUAREZ: Have reporters in other cases been successful in staying out of the grand jury chamber?
ADAM LIPTAK: They have, and there are arguments available, but in this situation those arguments are probably at their weakest. The main arguments reporters make are either that the information they have is not central to the case, and here who did the leaking is the essential question in the grand jury's investigation.
The other argument that reporters typically make, and courts like this one, is "please ask me last," exhaust all possible alternative sources, talk to everyone before you talk to a reporter.
Here again, though, from the looks of it -- and the information is limited because it's a grand jury proceeding in secret -- from the looks of it, this has been an extensive and thorough investigation, including interviews with the vice president and president.
So, this notion that the reporters should be asked last is a good theory, but here they may indeed be being asked last.
Why reporters would testify for the investigation
RAY SUAREZ: Two news organizations, time and NBC have sought to quash the subpoenas. The Washington Post, however, allowed their reporter to testify. Why did Glenn Kessler agree?
ADAM LIPTAK: It's a little hard to say, and I've not been able to get the Washington Post lawyers to explain it to me. What they've published is that they believe that their source gave them permission to talk to prosecutors.
However, if that permission consisted only of a waiver form that prosecutors essentially forced all sorts of people at the White House to sign, that's not going to be of much comfort to future sources because it's very hard to decline to sign such a form.
It's a little hard to know exactly what went on with The Washington Post, and one hopes that they didn't rely solely on this kind of blank form that a prosecutor shoved under someone's nose in order to betray a promise to a confidential source.
I bet there's more to a story... to the story, but we don't know it yet.
RAY SUAREZ: It's been widely published that the source that let Glenn Kessler off the hook is a pretty important person in the White House.
ADAM LIPTAK: It's said to be Lewis Libby on the vice president's staff. His name has come up over and over again. It's not clear, though, and in The Washington Post reporting, there was a suggestion that what they had to tell prosecutors was tended to exonerate rather than incriminate Mr. Libby, which might be a reason that Mr. Libby indeed, not only through this form but perhaps in another way, allowed or encouraged the reporter to testify.
RAY SUAREZ: How long until we know whether this attempt to quash the subpoenas is successful and whether this is all that the U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald is going to get on this matter?
ADAM LIPTAK: Well, there are a couple of questions. One is, how long does it take to judge to decide and hear arguments from very sophisticated lawyers today. And that typically takes weeks for a judge to digest the argument and the briefs and to write a written decision. It's also not clear that that decision will be made public, again because it's a grand jury proceeding; and not clear what happens next. It may be that if the news organizations lose, they'll appeal. It may be that they'll appear before the grand jury, but decline to testify there. There are lots of steps, legal steps, procedural steps, between here and there.
The one person we haven't talked about is Robert Novak, the original publisher of Valerie Plame's name, and it's... we know a little about what The Washington Post did. We know knowing about what Mr. Novak did, which is suggestive of the fact that he probably did something. He won't have been overlooked by the prosecutors.
Could the president have any information?
RAY SUAREZ: And does the fact that the president was interviewed signal that Mr. Fitzgerald's case is almost done, his part of it?
ADAM LIPTAK: It almost certainly means that. You're not going to take up the president's time until you're finishing up the case.
It's interesting, though: 70 minutes is a long time. The president hiring a private lawyer is an unusual move. It does seem -- while no one thinks the president himself picked up the phone to Mr. Novak -- that the president may well have information interesting to prosecutors. That's not to say that it's information that points towards anyone's guilt, but certainly 70 minutes is a lot of questions.
RAY SUAREZ: In the way that grand juries work, would the president have had to have been mentioned by other people who had already testified for him to be brought in by the U.S. attorney?
ADAM LIPTAK: The U.S. attorney could have learned of the president's having information in various ways, although it wouldn't surprise me at all if it came up during grand jury testimony.
RAY SUAREZ: And other leading lights of the administration have also been interviewed, also all not without taking the oath, is that correct?
ADAM LIPTAK: No, I believe that both the White House counsel Alberto Gonzales and the White House spokesman Scott McClellan actually appeared before the grand jury. And while we don't know what went on inside, it would be quite unusual for them not to be sworn in there.
I think the president and vice president were extended a courtesy of being interviewed informally.
RAY SUAREZ: Adam Liptak of The New York Times, thanks for being with us.
ADAM LIPTAK: Thank you, Ray.
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Jun 13, 2012
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My Father's Day is just Ford gave the way don't forget it if you're still looking for the perfect present don't panic thriller dot com senior editor -- let's joins us with them.
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Here's a look at what we're working on for tonight's news.
An Escanaba man is in Delta County court today on internet child pornography charges. Also in court for this case state attorneys. What involvement did they have in the charges against Scott Derouin? The story tonight on your TV6 Early News.
This time of the year, there's concern about the flooding potential for certain areas of Upper Michigan. Tonight, TV6 Meteorologist Phil DeCastro looks at the flood threat and what areas could see some high water as our meltdown continues. That's tonight on your TV6 Early News.
Kidney stones are the topic of tonight's TV6 Medical Minute. Doctor Michael Prevost looks at the condition and treatment of kidney stones tonight on your TV6 Early News.
A Menominee County man is being sentenced today for Second Degree Attempted Criminal Sexual Conduct with a minor under 13 years of age. The penalty handed down against Stephen Granquist on your TV6 News Tonight.
It's getting down to the wire for mushers in the Copper Dog 150 Sled Dog Race. The event starts Friday night in downtown Calumet. TV6's Houghton Hancock Bureau reporter Ashley Palumbo meets some of the mushers in the race as they put their dogs through their training routines. The story UP Close, on your TV6 News Tonight.
Tonight's Entertainment Report is on Jeff Cowell, who's just started a band in the Dickinson County area. Tonight you meet him and hear some of their music, which includes original music in a variety of styles. That's on your TV6 News Tonight.


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If you are thinking about hospice, you know that the decision can be a difficult one. It means that you or your loved one is nearing the end of life. It is normal to feel many emotions when hospice is discussed. You or your loved one's healthcare providers can help guide you in making the decision. But keep in mind that the goal of hospice is to provide comfort. This is done for both the person who is ill and his or her family. Hospice is about ensuring quality of life during the time a person has left. Symptoms are controlled. Emotional and practical matters are taken care of.
A doctor must confirm that you or your loved one qualifies for hospice. A person with illness can go into hospice when a doctor believes he or she has about 6 months or less to live. You can then choose a hospice to make this time as comfortable as possible.
When you are looking at hospices, ask questions. What are their services? Where do they provide care–at home or in a facility? Ask for a copy of the hospice's Patient's Rights and Responsibilities. To learn more about your local hospices, contact:
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Hospice is provided by a team. The team usually has a doctor, nurse, and social worker trained in hospice care. It may also have a home health aide, spiritual advisor, volunteers, and others. The patient is an important part of the team. He or she can voice his or her wishes and goals. If hospice is done at home, family members give day-to-day care. A home health aide can make visits. They can help with cooking, bathing, and bathroom needs. A nurse, social worker, and other professionals will visit. And a hospice nurse or doctor is on call 24 hours a day to answer questions and handle problems.
Hospice is often done in the home. Family members are the main caregivers, with support from the hospice team. The team may help you arrange care. They may also help set up the home. They can provide medical equipment as needed. This may include a hospital bed, commode, oxygen, or other supplies. The hospice can also help the family get breaks from caregiving. This is called respite care. For a short period of time, the hospice patient can be put into a facility. This lets caregivers take care of other needs. If hospice is already being done in a facility, all of these things are taken care of on-site.
Symptoms such as pain, nausea, anxiety, breathing distress, and sleep problems are treated. The hospice program will provide medications to ease these symptoms. The team will teach you how to use them. Treatments that are no longer beneficial may be stopped. The team will discuss what treatment changes may be needed. And caregiver training may be given to family members.
Both the patient and family can get counseling. This is to help with anxiety, grief, family conflict, and spiritual issues. Bereavement support is given for up to 13 months after the patient dies.
The hospice team helps the patient and family understand the illness and how it progresses. They can help both the patient and family review options so decisions can be made. The team can help with finding legal resources and answering insurance questions. And they give information about how to make funeral and memorial arrangements.
The patient's primary care doctor will have contact with the hospice team on a regular basis. If the patient's health improves, he or she may no longer meet the terms for hospice or need hospice care. In this case, the patient can end the hospice care and start it again later as needed. A patient can go back to hospice at any time by being re-certified by a doctor. Also, a patient has the right to leave a hospice at any time for any reason. A patient can also change to a different hospice if he or she is not happy with the care.


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The Valparaiso University mens basketball team took the court for a nationally-televised home game early this morning... 7 am CST... the earliest a Crusader game has ever tipped off at the ARC, the university says. The Crusaders took part in the ESPN Tip-Off Marathon for the first time, hosting the Huskies of Northern Illinois live on ESPN and also heard on AM-1500 WAKE and www.wakeradio.com . Final score – Valparaiso 69, Northern Illinois, 46, attendance 2445.
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Remember that Walden's Title IV Code is 025042.
The College Teaching and Learning certificate can help you gain the skills you need to meet the increasing demand for qualified college instructors.
Discover the major steps in the teaching and learning process: planning, developing, and facilitating learning experiences and assessing outcomes. Explore online learning environments and how to meet the needs of students in the virtual classroom.
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You can complete the Certificate in College Teaching and Learning in as little as 8 months. Time to completion may vary by student, depending on individual progress and credits transferred, if applicable. For a personalized estimate of your time to completion, call an enrollment advisor at 1-866-492-5336. Credits earned in this certificate program may be applied toward Walden's M.S. in Higher Education with a specialization in College Teaching and Learning.
Effective learning experiences start with a clear plan. Decisions about what to teach, how to teach, and how to ensure students are achieving important learning goals confront every college instructor. Education professionals are introduced to concepts of planning curriculum and courses, establishing goals and outcomes, aligning outcomes with professional or disciplinary standards, prioritizing content, and planning for student engagement and active learning in this course. They engage in discussions and activities that emphasize the development of decision-making processes, which they can use to create effective plans for learning. Through an integrative course project, education professionals apply course concepts as they develop a learning plan that incorporates learning goals and teaching and assessment strategies.
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Assessment in college teaching involves several critical processes: giving students meaningful tasks that allow them to demonstrate their learning; providing feedback that enables students to improve their performance; and using data about student learning to continually improve teaching. Education professionals are provided with opportunities to design and discuss approaches to evaluation and assessment that support learner motivation and development, track progress toward outcomes, and gain information they can use to inform their own practice, including ways that technology can augment these approaches. Through this course, education professionals can learn what it means to engage in teaching scholarship—the process of investigating their teaching and sharing demonstrably effective approaches with their peers.
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Occupations—This program generally prepares students to enter the types of occupations listed below. For more information on these specific occupations, visit www.onetonline.org.
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View examples of our student and alumni accomplishments in their chosen fields.
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Program Completion—The program completion rate is the percentage of students who graduated between July 1, 2011, and June 30, 2012, who completed this program in the normal completion time.
The program completion time may vary depending on transfer of credit and the pace at which a student chooses to complete the program. Because many of the students in this program are working adults and need to balance personal and professional commitments, our academic advisors can help establish an appropriate program of study that enables each student to complete this program in a time frame that works best for him or her.
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Median Loan Debt—The following is the median amount borrowed by all students who completed the program between July 1, 2011, and June 30, 2012. The amount borrowed may include tuition as well as non-institutional costs such as estimated living expenses.
For assistance in deciding which online certificate program fits your goals, request information or speak with an enrollment advisor by calling 1-866-492-5336. A list of international toll-free phone numbers is available for students outside the United States.


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Story Art with the Aspen Art Museum
Led by an instructor from the Aspen Art Museum, Story Art combines learning to read with art-making and activities that build visual literacy. This popular program introduces children to the basic foundations of art through engaging storybooks, looking activities, and hands-on art projects. Story Art programs are held at the Gordon Cooper Branch Library on the first Tuesday of each month at 3:45 pm and are for children in grades K-5.
RSVP encouraged for StoryArt. Call 953-2889, email Jeannine at firstname.lastname@example.com, or register here online.
For more information, contact the Gordon Cooper Branch Library at (970) 963-2889.


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On a sunny July morning, dozens of Girls in the Game camp members lined up on a Union Park tennis court to learn the basics of ice hockey. Most had never even seen a live hockey game, but with sticks in hand, they watched as Chicago Wolves staff taught them how to ball handle, pass and score a goal on mascot Skates. Keeping with GITG's mission, the experience gave the girls a chance to flex their muscles and learn something new.
- Nov. 30 at Rockford
- (Media / Nov. 30 at Rockford)
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ROCKFORD, Ill. --- The Chicago Wolves were unable to overcome Kyle Beach's three-goal effort as they fell to the
...
- Nov. 29 vs. Rockford
- (Media / Nov. 29 vs. Rockford)
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Rosemont, Ill.---The Chicago Wolves reeled off 3 goals in the opening 10 minutes to set the stage for a 7-1
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- Nov. 27 vs. Iowa
- (Media / Nov. 27 vs. Iowa)
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ROSEMONT, Ill. --- The Chicago Wolves could not stop the Iowa Wild and Jason Zucker on Wednesday night, falling
...


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Wounded man left at hospital ER dies
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A man who had been wounded in a shooting died after being dropped off at the Mount Carmel East emergency room Wednesday night, Columbus police said.
The wounded man was dropped off at the hospital at 9:23 p.m. and was pronounced dead at 11:08 p.m., police said. His name was not available late last night.
Police were looking for a red Ford Crown Victoria that dropped the man off at the hospital then drove off.


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Sec. Napolitano a good person to judge border security?
Former INS agent Michael Cutler weighs in
Feb 4, 2013
Michael Cutler
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And it it was sixty -- -- -- -- 64% of voters say the US border isn't very secure but is she the person to decide when it is.
-- -- a plan on immigration reportedly giving.
Department of Homeland Security.
It's a secretary Janet Napolitano the final say on border security right now Napolitano.
On a two day tour of the southwest border.
But for Bryant isn't like Culver says that doesn't mean she's the best judge on when it's secure what you mean by that do you think she's a good.
A good judge -- the border not at all look this is the equivalent of having Al Capone determine if the bank's vault the secure enough and besides which you know my -- to say self praise is no recommendation.
She's the one charged with securing the borders she can say she's doing a lousy job.
Well if I'm not mistaken the senate plan at least the plan that we we talked about last week the eight senators on both sides of the aisle came up with -- Said they'd -- the border needs to be secured first before they implement somebody some of the other -- initiatives within the plant.
But one well no it's not -- -- who what -- first of all the border exists in all fifty states.
Second of all the entire immigration system lacks integrity.
The United States citizenship and immigration services which is division of DHS an agency that's so screwed up but I've come to call the -- the homeland surrender.
There is no integrity.
The program that the president implement -- -- lose the so called dreamers business.
There's no face to face interviews we're talking about people who could not pass Muster by coming in legally.
That means they may well be terrorists that might well be criminals they may well be fugitives from Holland -- works for -- directly.
For the president of -- -- -- says we don't need to secure the border first right is that makes sense that.
If there's there's no real incentive for gen -- -- say we need to secure the border or her for a to say it's not secure yet.
Well she's gonna do what but so many single -- do with their bosses and say sure thing bores you say the border secure I tell you would secure.
But again that's the false metric.
My concern is that we are giving out as it turned -- of the Center for Immigration Studies is that a report that said guess what.
We have dozens of naturalized citizens who went on to become terrorists and spies.
There is so little integrity to the naturalization process talk so it's below that you -- us president Ahmadinejad.
On that last read that story before that why is that concerning -- that.
Jog your memory -- should be concerning to everybody you know I've arrested terrorists as an agent we know that there are growing numbers of a rainy in shock troops the cuts.
Flying directly from Tehran to Venezuela.
If you spend a couple of years in Venezuela it's very easy for Mohamed to transform himself into Miguel.
Come across that border and possibly even with the Venezuelan travel document.
And then claimed to be somebody he isn't and use that as the -- intact -- in fact we know that that's exactly -- the terrorists who attacked America.
Not only on 9/11 but in other instances that's how they came here that's how they embedded themselves they got political asylum by committing fraud.
They got them and the state mum would double Lima one of the terrorists -- the 93 trade center attack that agricultural amnesty claiming he worked on a farm in Florida.
The only thing we have a -- that was a bomb in the garage of the world trade that you think there's a definite risk of terrorist coming across the border.
Whether it's through -- of the -- -- Venezuela through Mexico.
We could see.
Terrorism this well could say I figure would be unbelievable that we would not of course we're going to see if they've they've threatened to come here and attack us we know that that that America's and they cross hairs.
And then you add to this the idea of adding millions of new authorized workers at a time when Americans can't find work and that's -- we have immigration laws to protect innocent lives and protect the jobs of Americans.
What they want to do now flies in the face of both of those important priorities -- today thank you very much -- accelerate.
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It had been four years since my wife I had stayed at Kicking Horse. I wonder why it took so long to get back? We have a review that we wrote then but thought I would update our thoughts now. We go in the fall to hike and the aspen trees are beautiful. It is so quiet and relaxing at... More
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EditBasic Full Name: Larry G Renslow 1 Birth: 21 Dec 1938 1 Death: 18 Nov 2003 1 Residence: Last Residence: Menlo, IA 1
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Anyone can contribute to this page. Please sign in or sign up—it's free. Source: Social Security Death Index Created: 05 Sep 2008 Modified: 09 Oct 2013 Page Views: 65 total (15 this week)


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