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is Koran scientifically a miracle?
performing miracles is in order to give proof of the authenticity of message of God that it proceeds in fact from the Creator of the universe.
A miracle is an act that cannot be performed by the aid of learning and practice.
please look http://www.quranmiracles.com/ and please read and understand at least few of scientific claims or predictions of Koran in this link according to your scientific specialty.
if Koran is a miracle it is standing challenge for all times and places. In other words, it is alive while other miracles are temporary or dead. Hence, the latter might be questioned or doubted but not Muhammad's miracle.
it is claimed by Muslims that Koran has many scientific predictions and has no conflict with valid science and it is impossible an unread man at age of 40 immediately say such things in Koran in the context of Arabia at 1400 years ago.
is Koran the miracle or our era?
if you have problem understanding Koran:
Closing Statement from S. Ahmadi
this topic needed more time but TED admin forced it to be closed in 2 days and then accepted 5 day. so it could not reach a clear final answer.
many subjects about Koran done here and some had a answer and some did not have enough time to be answered specially subjects written in final hours before closing.
not clear conflict between Koran and science could be found in this topic. but it needs more discussion.
Jun 21 2011: .
The Quran is a poetic book written by pre-scientific people who lived in a harsh desert-environment, and thus needed hard social rules for their survival.
We need to take a historic look at all religious books.
The rest is belief, which is the exact opposite of scientific reason.
I don't even see a grain of sand to begin a debate with, on this matter.-
Jun 21 2011: ''Poetic book''
It's funny the way you just came in like that at the end of the conversation
on the Quran being poetic?? who told you?! do you even speak Arabic?
The Quran is nowhere neat poetry.....
It is a piece of literature that all arabs have accepted a long time ago that they could not match.....it is nothing like what they had.....
who did it come from?
an Illiterate man named Mohammed (PBUH) ........the facts in it are amazing.......the laws are too.....the philosophy of it is amazing...with the likes of Avicenna (who was also a great scientist) just bowed down to......
The challenge from the Quran remains.......bring one chapter like it.... in Arabic which no one will ever be able to reach....with all the arguments and facts......from an illiterate man......
As i have been saying over and over.......Islam is not in conflict with science, unlike other religions......Islam is with science.....because God created science.......
Look at the Golden Age of Muslim scientists and philosophers who accepted all the philosophy of Islam without doubt........
Islam and Muslims of the past literally gave you all the science you had and you advanced from there........and it is obvious how much Islam changed the world.....scientifically and more......
Show me one religion which supported science so much.......
''thus needed hard social rules for their survival''
Yeah, and then comes a man who changes literally every single thing in all of Arabia in 23 years.....in 23 years he had united all of Arabia......with great rules which are still unmatched today.......
It will be predominant one day in the world......and then all your atheism will be lost and you will become the greatest of losers.....
Jun 21 2011: I think the conclusion of this thread could be that, if you're going to try to convince anyone who isn't already swayed by the Koran (i.e. Born in a Muslim culture with Muslim parents) that your book is a miracle, you're going to have to do better than to quote some passages that may; by some crazy stretch of the imagination, mean something scientific well before its time. It certainly doesn't help the Koran's case to hide behind the language barriers each time something in the Koran is scientifically inaccurate (like the vague description of an embryo's development). The Koran is clearly a product of its time and so far I can honestly say its far from being the scientific miracle S.R would have loved it to be.
If S.R is right in saying that "performing miracles is in order to give proof of the authenticity of message of God that it proceeds in fact from the Creator of the universe." than that's really two birds one stone. Not only have we seen that the Koran is not a scientific miracle but we can also conclude by S.R's own logic that this means Allah doesn't exist. Sounds about right. -
Jun 20 2011: You are right - I don't doubt you have other interests and that here on TED it is not the place to necessarily show your entire personality. The same holds true for me!
And I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that you are anything but well-intentioned in your thoughts - I think you are as well-intentioned as I am and that we both make mistakes. I wouldn't worry too much about your evils. They may in fact be human frailties - not evil at all.
But I did want to point out to you that what you say often times reminds me of someone who feels persecuted... and at other times someone who has all the answers. It's natural for you to feel a certain amount of persecution due to where you were born and what you have experienced. But if that dictates your thinking in it's entirety, then you have succumbed to it - get over it!!!
And if you think your religion is better than another's because of something you've been told, well then I'm telling you now that can't be true.
When I said "Hang out with a woman" I only meant so that you could gain a true insight as to how women are suppressed in many places in the world!! If this would not be possible simply because you are married, then that is the very point I am trying to make.-
Jun 21 2011: thanks dear friend and brother Jim Moonan,
I agree and appreciate you.
please note that in the era of information and Internet and satellite the dictate has no meaning.
I am not donkey or ape and I have enough think and wisdom and enough access to information to can decide independently. also please note I have been at least 11 years in different universities and had enough expose of anti-Islamic thinks and little contact with Islamic teaches. all I know is from my personal interest and personal research and study. I had no religious studying.(only few in school and university as required units that I passed them like other students instead of understanding).
I think religion is better not because I've been told. because it is most updated and last true and not deviated religion of God. I always follow the latest religion and prophet of God. all prophets are the same and I follow the latest prophet because context change s and each prophet is for one context and God did not sent any prophet after Muhammad (PBUH) and this means God satisfy the latest religion for current context.
although my parents are simple Muslims but I have not grown in a religious condition and I was not religious until before university. also may father was not religious. for example my father did not participate in Iran-Iraq war. but one day he decided to go war and protect his land and went to related office to register his name and get war cloth. but that day news announced war finished.
I was not religious until one day I had a travel to shrine of Imam Reza (PBUH) and that travel changed my life 180 degree.
Jun 21 2011: SR - Thanks very much for such a warm response… Our orientations to the world are very different, but that's what I love about this world. Peace and love are real things, and although it may be unrealistic to think that the world will ever be a peaceful place, there IS a place for peace, compassion, caring and civility and that's where i want to be.
Jun 20 2011: SR -After reading so many of your responses on such a very narrow scope of interest (I've never seen you commenting on any other issue other than god and religion) I am struck by your dichotomy.
I assume you've heard of the phrase, "persecution complex".
And I also assume you've heard of the phrase, "superiority complex".
To me, you alternate between the two.
You've got to get over both of them. Travel. Do something outside your comfort zone. Spend a solid month glued to the hip of a tibetan buddhist. Hang out with a woman. Do something to shake yourself awake.
Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.-
Jun 20 2011: "I've never seen you commenting on any other issue other than god and religion"
please do not prejudice. first you only see my TED aspect. second I accept certain science (not hypothesis) and rational argument and certain history and anything with logic and wisdom. please do not prejudice. also I accept I have problems and I am not perfect. I am sorry for my mistakes. my evils are more than my goods.
"To me, you alternate between the two."
thanks. I checked both your links. I hope they help me. I consider your suggests. also I am married. you mean hanging out with other woman?
also I ask please check some ideas of people about prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and also other prophets:
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Jun 20 2011: Dear Jim,
"The only people who think this is true are people who are already committed to believing the Koran is true."
are you sure?
about the link what is mistake?
"It is easily explained as a coincidence. "
please note is is not only one or two case. many of such case are in Koran. all are coincidence?
what about this one:?
"humans started with a single man and woman "
do you have any evidence to disprove it?
please note other humans existed before Adam and Eve.
"When seen through the lens of our current knowledge, it only makes sense to classify these beliefs as myths with no bearing in science."
please distinguish church beliefs and Koran beliefs. and show your evidence. you only claim.
Jun 19 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
what is your idea about this website and the scientific Quran miracles shown on it?
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/ -
Jun 19 2011: SR - please find it in your heart and mind to believe that your beliefs are not to be measured against others; that others will believe something to be different and that does not make them any more or less better than you; that you are human and therefore prone to being wrong; that the ultimate human attribute is not to become rigid/static, but to change and learn; that there are other realities than yours that deserve your respect; that to declare the torah and the bible to be inferior to any other book that claims to be the word of god is to declare yourself superior to others who are seeking the same answers; that you and I are products of our experiences; that there is much more to life than who may have created it and much more to life than knowing why we are here.
Come on SR. Life is passing you by. It waits for no one.-
Jun 19 2011: "you are human and therefore prone to being wrong"
agree about myself. but I disagree Koran has even one error.
about bible and torah I said they are partially deciated.
God only sent one bible and torah to 2 prophets.
but how many books are old testimonials? I think they are 39 books. all are from God? or written more than 1000 years after death of Moses (PBUH)?
also bible do you agree at time that Jesus (PBUH) disappeared all bibles were collected from people by church? and until year 170 there was no bible in hand of people. it means people had no bible at least for 50 years and then church made 4 different version of bible (not same as the original bible at time of life of prophet).
do you agree?
Koran is completely different and only one text of Koran exist and there is no doubt that today text of Koran is exact same as what said by prophet word by word.
please explain how belief is measurable. -
Jun 18 2011: SR: Would you be open to a blending of faiths so that their was one belief system? In other words, can you see a day coming when there is no Islam, no Catholicism, no Judiasm, no Hinduism, no Buddism, etc. and in it's place a melding of all of them to create one religion?
Also, in chrsitian practice, it is generally allowed for followers to interpret many parts of the bible in their own personal way - not "One Way".
Is that also the case with Islam?-
Jun 19 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
all religions from God have no conflict. only newer is more complete. and so they are already blended. (original beliefs of religions of God like Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
religions made by human are not true religion (religion is only religion if made by God). and human made religions have conflict with religions of God. for example Abraham religions have only and only one God and believing in more than one God is great and the only sin that can not be forgiven. but for example Buddhism have many Gods. how two contradict believes can be blended? it is not soup. it is religion.
please note all prophets of God were Muslim and their morals and deeds has no conflict with Islam but they were completed step by step and final religion is most completed:
"This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. "
and this what promised for future of all religions:
"Also, in chrsitian practice, it is generally allowed for followers to interpret many parts of the bible in their own personal way - not "One Way".
about what subjects? principals of religion? or detail new happening subjects?
"Is that also the case with Islam?"
Islam has two main category of instructions (religion laws):
1- primary instructions
2- secondary instructions
primary instructions are base and principals and fixed law and not changeable and are like formula.
secondary are for new happening needs. for example a new technology or product is made and needs new instructions. for example all Muslims pray into direction of Kaaba. now people go and live in moon. then to what direction they should do pray? this is a new happening need. and in such cases ONLY who are expert in Islam and know all principals can make new instruction that should not have any conflict with primary instructions. (fatwa)
Jun 17 2011: I was brought up Jewish and believed many different things which upon becoming an independent minded person I discovered to be untrue (biblical history etc) and as a result I am now a firm atheist.
I feel SR that you need to look at the Koran without your religious bias getting in the way, as I do now when it comes to Jewish literature and Scripture. Believing that the Koran "predicted" scientific fact is not only unrealistic, but also a good example of how data can be manipulated to fit a cause.
Other examples of this phenomenon are the bible codes, which allegedly prove that the bible predict events that have happened after it's writing (such as 9/11).
With such a large book with so many letters, it is highly likely that by using certain mathematical formulae it would be possible to find words and even paragraphs, which allegedly "prove" anything! I refer you back to Richard Dawson's mentioning of the Infinite monkeys/typewriters analogy.
The fact of the matter is, that using the Koran, you cannot say to any of us that, "X will be discovered in the future (lets say a complete understanding of gravity) and here is paragraph Y that proves it will happen that way". Maybe in the future when we have that knowledge somebody will look back through the Koran to find a paragraph of metaphor that suits the theory, but that will in no way be proof that the Koran explain gravity!
"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." (Hebrews 11:3)
This quote here is not proof that the bible predicts atomic structure or the presence of tiny particles, it is simply a metaphor referring to the belief that God created the world (by the word of God) and that God (and indeed his words) are invisible to the normal person!
I fear that in the future you will see the folly of your beliefs! But you are entitled to them nonetheless!
Richard D you are a beacon of reason and logic!-
Jun 18 2011: Dear Jonny Green,
"I feel SR that you need to look at the Koran without your religious bias getting in the way"
I try.
I do not consider today Bible and Torah original. they are deviated and changed in text.
I am speaking about Koran.
if you can disprove Koran is not a miracle please show your argument by rational proof or accepted scientific fact (not hypothesis) and if can not I do not what you mean by saying these comments.-
Jun 19 2011: You've managed to disprove the Koran many times for us while we just sat back and looked at you struggle to get one verse that predicted anything. It was fun. I especially loved that passage in that first link you sent us where the Koran predicts that atoms are the smallest particle in existence. I guess we built all those particle colliders for nothing.
Jun 19 2011: Actually it's just a mistake those idiots at quranmiracles.com made (probably because their science is lousy, but I guess we've already discussed the fact this website is awful so let's move on): http://www.quranmiracles.com/atom-and-subatomic-particles/
Anyway, please respond to the big thread Richard and I have written about your so called lowest land.-
Jun 19 2011: ''Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them?'' 21:30
Big Bang.....
''With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. "
The expanding universe......
now these are just two scientific statements in the Quran......
But I just want to say one thing, The Quran is not a book of Science......it is a book of guidance to God......which means it may guide through science or through anything else which may lead to God......
with that said, there are many verses in the Quran which are scientific and which have been proved by science today......but we cannot just bring up any verse and say it is scientific.....some are on science and some are not, they are more deeper than science.......
when we mention these verses, we have to explain them clearly from someone who understands arabic very well....because translations are not the most accurate and can sometimes be vague......
What I recommend for anyone who wants to know the Quran is to read it very well, alone and then see what it is trying to say........
you can't just bring up lists of so-called inaccuracies in the Quran without explanation and understanding......
some people just read vague translations and then get the false conclusion that the Quran is scientifically false.......Read the Quran in Arabic...if you can.....there can be no translation of the Quran because then it will be confusing and it will lose meaning........thats why I think commentaries of the Quran in english can be used....but only through thought and contemplation, rationally.....not just assumptions and presumptions.....
Muslims believe The Quran is a miracle in everything.....not just science.......if you want to read about science then read science books.... If you want to read about why we exist and what our goal is, if you want to be guided read the Quran.....
Jun 19 2011: Oh please. That is weak. Do you seriously think that these are seriously credible examples? Also if you want to argue that the holes that we poke are flawed because we can't speak Arabic (I'd like to point out it's holes we poke in what S.R claims is in the Quran rather than our interpretation of it), you're also going to have to concede that you can't derive scientific facts without knowing the Arabic too.
We know what Muslims believe, but the question isn't "Do Muslims believe the Koran is a scientific miracle" it's "is Koran scientifically a miracle?"-
Jun 19 2011: Could they be any clearer.....please?? you are the one who is weak....you want it to be in scientific terms which were made probably a hundred or more years ago.....do you know how old the Quran is?
1432 years........what do you want it to say??? the earth and heavens i.e. the universe were joined as one united piece.....what else do you want it to say...it's a book for all ages...it wants to simplify it for that time.........again, you are the weak one......
We are expanding space....again, can it be any clearer?!
you did not say why they are weak examples,when they are so clear......just tell me why?
2. I was talking of the Quran as a whole........you can't understand it fully if you just read vague translations...you need a commentary with it too.....and you also cannot read what atheists say of the Quran or what Christians say about the Quran without consulting the Quran itself in Arabic and english commentary if you want.......
Please, what holes did you poke?? I didn't say I agree with all of what SR was saying.....read my comment...i clearly said that we can't make every verse in the Quran scientific.........most of the old commentators of the Quran never even mentioned most of these scientific verses meaning...probably because they didn't understand them yet or because the Quran wasn't even talking about science at all.........thats what I mean by when I say we as Muslims should not make every verse scientific..and thats what our open minded scholars have said countless numbers of times....only that which is clearly scientific like the two verses I gave you........The Quran, as I said, is a book of Guidance not a book of science...it may have scientific verses....many in fact but not all of the verses talk about science...most talk of a being above all science......God......
You won't poke anything in the Quran until you read it yourself....and see its actual meaning for yourself......you can't just say it's weak....
It is a miracle for everyone.
Jun 17 2011: I always just stand in awe at these geniuses that invented the big religions, really props to them, this thing is just EVERYWHERE, even on ted.com, outstanding, even when they make no sense and have no basis nor evidence, it's unbelievable, just amazing. I wish i had just 0.1% of their ability to manipulate people I really do
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Jun 17 2011: Mohammad thanks for sharing verse 42:45 with an ignoramus like me.
"And you will see them being exposed to it, namely, the Fire, submissive, fearful and humbled, by abasement, looking, at it, with a furtive glance, a slight look, stealthily .. And those who believe will say, 'Verily the [true] losers are those who have lost themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection, for being condemned to abide forever in the Fire and for not being able to attain [the blissful company of] the houris prepared for them in Paradise had they been believers.."
Of course so thoughtless of us not to believe in the "miracle" of the Quran. When one considers just for believing you will get all those houris and for not believing that terrible punishment in hell.
So predictable, if the claims are implausible and the story is incredible, close with a threat of Hell and throw in a promise of houris. That should clinch the argument. (Although how do the houris work for women? they only have the whip (hell) but no carrot (houris). )
Talking about right path and righteous teachings have you read the Bible Mohammad? -
Jun 17 2011: Dear Mohammad BIn Iftikhar,
I know such people exist.
but I never prejudice about any one until I become ensured.
I think they are seeking truth. western people have a dark Image of religion according to crimes of church to religion and humanity.
if I ensure they are deaf I will not waste my time with them.
so let them ask and research and seek truth.
I hope they be real truth seekers and accept truth even if truth is not in their favor.
they way you speak them before knowing them is not the way prophet was speaking with non Muslims.
prophet replied every question rationally even with referring to bible and torah and never pushed any one to accept Koran and Islam.
also Koran said:
lets make truth clear and leave people free to decide.
Jun 15 2011: SR MY CHALLENGE TO YOU- show me just ONE verse in the Quran which mentions just ONE scientific fact, clearly and unambiguously. JUST ONE. (به وضوح و نه دوپهلو)
In reply SR replied:
SR - "I showed you more than 100."
Reply - No you have not shown me even one
SR - "OK lets start one by one: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:3
This verse says that war between Roman empire and Persian Empire happened in the lowest land of earth.
Is this miracle or not? is this به وضوح و نه دوپهلو? [clear and not ambiguous]"
Reply - This verse says according your link "The Byzantines have been defeated. In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. Within three to nine years."
And another exact translation of the verses 30:3-4 "Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice"
We were talking about scientific facts not supposed historical predictions. But let us consider this:
1. There is no mention of any lowest land on Earth.
2. The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea and the Jordan Valley closest to it, Not Mesopotamia where the battle is supposed to have taken place.
So it is not clear
It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth.
It is ambiguous one says within 3 to 9 years (of what? Of which date?)
The other says within 10 years (again of what? Which date?)
The Quran was compiled at least 20 years after Muhammad's death therefore so called historical events could easily have been incorporated after the events took place
Finally it could just have been a lucky or informed guess. How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date but has to make a vague prophesy like "within 10 years" or "within 3 to 9 years"?
So there is nothing miraculous to be found here.
My challenge remains SR – you or anyone answer it.-
Jun 18 2011: "Within three to nine years"
who said 3 or 9?
Koran said in SOME (بضع) years. and it happened after 8 years.
when Koran said Within ten years?
please show me the "ten" in Koran! who is the translator?
"We were talking about scientific facts not supposed historical predictions."
I meant the lowest land of earth.
also prediction is another miracle.
"It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth."
why? are you geologist?
"The other says within 10 years"
when Koran said 10? 10 in Arabic is عشر. Koran not said ten.
also the start time is from when this verse was revelated to prophet.
"The Quran was compiled at least 20 years after Muhammad's death "
oh! what? God said Koran verse by verse during life of Muhammad and many people immediately memorized it and wrote it on skins and bones of animals. near 500 famous people were waiting for new verse to memorize it. and many wrote it. all the same and prophet exactly audited them and corrected them. after death of prophet people who memorized Koran had some minor differences in READING METHOD (PRONUNCIATION) of Koran (with exact the same text). after 20 years you say it was making a standard Koran with same READING METHOD (PRONUNCIATION). not changing text. also at that time not all people obeyed that standardization and many people held their own copy of Koran like Ali (PBUH). also at that time of standardization at least 150 famous Koran memorizer were alive and did not let any change in text and the standard version was accepted by all memorizer . (near 150 of them are known today by exact name and even more memorizer than 15 were alive at time of standardization.)
I did not understand what you meant by 20 years.
"How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date "
he could but did not want. you are boss of God?
"So there is nothing miraculous to be found here.'
the lowest land-
Jun 19 2011: SR - "Within three to nine years" who said 3 or 9?
Koran said in SOME (بضع) years. and it happened after 8 years."
Reply – I said 3 TO 9 years, NOT 3 OR 9. This means anywhere between 3 and 9 years. The link YOU provided says 3 to 9 years "(1) The Byzantines have been defeated(2) In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. (3) Within three to nine years."
Also even if we agree to your "some" years. "Some years" is very vague.
And it says "nearest land", but even if we agree to your lowest land on Earth, according to the Tafsirs it was fought in Mesopotamia, which is NOT the lowest land on Earth, which is around the Dead Sea. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=30&tAyahNo=3&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
SR – ""It is not correct if it says it happened in the in the lowest land of earth." why? are you geologist?"
Reply – Don't be absurd SR. Your reply is like a child's. I do not have to be a geologist to know which is the Highest mountain on Earth or the Lowest land. It is general knowledge, which I have far more of than you. Because I spent my life acquiring knowledge and you have spent your life reading the Quran. Please educate yourself here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremes_on_Earth
But then again we have no idea what is the first war that is being talked about, nor the second war. Is there any independent record of the Quran when these two wars took place? And when the Quran recorded the alleged "prophesy"? Everything is very vague and we are supposed to, on the basis of these very vague and unsupported sayings, which are incorrect (the lowest land) even according to its commentaries, say the Quran is a "Miracle"?
As for historical fact we do not know. It is not either clear or unambiguous.
And, unfortunately, instead of showing Quran as a miracle, it has shown that the Quran is in error on Geographical fact.
Do you agree SR?-
Jun 19 2011: بضع سنين means some years. and some is used in usual speak of Arab people. I do not know exact number for some. the translator should explain why translated it as 3 to 9 years. but if some one ask you how many years is "some years" what you reply?.
you are right now I checked the link and it has translated 3 to 8 years. but this is not exact translate. the translator has written 3 to 9 from himself and Koran only said SOME.
please check other translates. for example:
also please no one claimed Koran said exact date of victory. I do not know why you insist on date. only prediction of victory is claimed to be miracle not exact date. also the lowest land is claimed to be miracle.
who claimed that Koran predicted the exact time of victory of that war that you are trying to disprove it?
""Some years" is very vague."
OK. but it happened in 8 years and 8 years is not far from some. yes it happened after 1000 years than some was not a good predict.
I do not where is Mesopotamia. also i do not know if the tafseer you use as reference is correct or not. better to use a historical reference for place of this war.
also I think this is lowest dry land of earth:
"Is there any independent record of the Quran when these two wars took place?"
I think there has been many historians from many countries of world at that time.
"And when the Quran recorded the alleged "prophesy"?"
please note Koran was revelated to prophet verse by verse during to prophet time of life or prophet (from age 40 to end of his life). Koran did not came at once. and as soon as a new verse came many muslims around prophet memorized and written it (near 500 person at least). so it was recorded as soon as it was revelated to prophet.
"Everything is very vague"
I disagree every thing in Koran is vague. but some verses yes. have you read all Koran? -
Jun 19 2011: some reference about that war:
Jun 19 2011: Matthieu and SR please reply here about SR's claimed "Miracle"
It is getting lost in that long thread, which maybe SR's aim as he is on shaky ground.
SR – "You say it is not clear. what about the lowest land of earth..."
Matthieu – "..I'm still not sure what you mean by the lowest land on Earth. Compared to what?"
SR – "..it means the lowest altitude/height land of earth in land (not sea). it means the nearest land of earth to center of earth. or the minimum height of earth according to free oceans level of water…"
Matthieu – "Ok that's clear now. What's your point?
About your answer earlier where you say: "I showed many verse." Quantity is not equivalent to quality. You can show me a million verses, if none fit the criteria, then they're no good for the purpose you're trying to use them for."
SR – "please say where is the lowest land of earth and where that war happened to see if Koran is right or false."
Richard – The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea. I have no idea where that "war" happened (probably a battle), but the Tafsirs claim it was in Mesopotamia (see link above). I have no idea when the first "war" happened and when the second "war" happened.
Do we have any evidence of either "war" independent of the Quran to see if the Quran is right or false? The only way to judge that it was historically correct is to know these two dates and the date of the alleged "prophesy".
But whether it was historically correct or not, (all astrologers and so called prophets claim to have made the prophesy after the event), it was geographically incorrect. It was not fought in the lowest land.-
Jun 19 2011: I literally burst out laughing when I read: "why? are you geologist?" Sounds like the cheap answer of someone who is being backed into a corner.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you don't need to be a geologist to know that, all you have to do is look up what geologists themselves have found, as documented all over the internet. My first instinct when I read lowest land on Earth was to check the wikipedia page that details the highest and lowest places on Earth. I was going to get it for you but looks like Richard already links to it.
I also feel like you haven't been entirely honest about this passage either. You said the passage said the war would be over between 3 to 9 years. Now you're saying the passage actually says "some years". That's completely different! Some years could mean anything from 2 to 15 years and beyond. Anybody can say "the war will be over in some years". I could have told you that about any war that has happened since I was born. I feel like that's cheating really.
Also, Richard and I have issued you the same challenge. I told you quantity does not trump quality when you told me you showed many verses and you agreed. When Richard reissued the challenge, you again repeated to him that you had shown many verses, almost as though you'd forgotten that you'd agreed that quantity =/= quality. That's pretty dishonest in my opinion. It's like you're trying so hard to be right, you don't mind being inconsistent and saying one thing to me, while saying something else to Richard.
So there we are. The score is you still have not properly answered the challenge after all this time. For some reason, you've given up on scientific miracle and have now delved into historical miracles, only to find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too.
Is the Koran scientifically a miracle? No. Or at least everything on this thread has failed to make me think so. If anything I've seen contradictions. And you found them for us! Thanks man. -
Jun 19 2011: "Anybody can say "the war will be over in some years"."
Koran did not say so.
Koran predicted which side will won. also there was 2 war. first war was won by Romans and war was over. 8 years later another war happened (not the first war extended and some one said war will be over).
how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?
how Koran predicted Persian emperor is winner at second war?
"When Richard reissued the challenge, you again repeated to him that you had shown many verses, almost as though you'd forgotten that you'd agreed that quantity =/= quality. That's pretty dishonest in my opinion."
I think I said that Richard before saying this. also I did not agree my verses had low quality. I agreed quality is not quantity. you said these are not clear and I accepted showing other verses more clear (for you. not for me). for me all are clear.
"find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too."
please do not conclude quick. where that war happened? we have not still a valid reference for place of that war. I do not know the tafseer Richard showed as reference and I do not know how much it is correct about place of war. also I do not consider that tafseer a valid commentary of Koran. there are many commentary of Koran and commentary is ideas of some one about Koran and is not necessarily correct. you can read Koran and write a tafseer from your ideas about Koran.
please use the valid historical references for place of that Big war.
Jun 19 2011: SR "I do not know exact number for some. the translator should explain why translated it as 3 to 9 years. but if some one ask you how many years is "some years" what you reply?.
you are right now I checked the link and it has translated 3 to 8 years. but this is not exact translate. the translator has written 3 to 9 from himself and Koran only said SOME."
Reply – SR this is becoming a joke. You who have spent your life studying the Quran know less than me who has read up this thing only in the last 15 minutes. YOU are asking ME questions about information you yourself produced to prove the Quran is a miracle! And you are questioning the translator!
According to the Tafsir (commentary, explanation) the Arabic word for "some" - 'bid', [usually means] between three and nine or ten years. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=30&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
From the information you have provided I can gather that the second battle the Quran is vaguely referring to, is the decisive Battle of Nineveh, which took place on December 12, 627. So the Tafsir is correct it took place in Mesopotamia.
SR – "I do not where is Mesopotamia."
Reply – Christ Almighty! (That is just an exclamation) – SR please educate yourself, your ignorance is astounding. You do not know where Mesopotamia is, you do not know where the lowest land on Earth is, but on the basis of the Quran you wrongly pronounce that it is the lowest land on Earth and thus behold – a miracle.
This only shows the power of your faith. You blindly believe the untruth.
SR – ""How come the mighty Allah cannot tell us the exact date "
he could but did not want. you are boss of God?"
Reply – May I remind you we are supposed to be overawed by this supposed "prophesy".
The entire war took place from 602 to 628 AD, within the lifetime of Muhammad. He could well have made the alleged "prophesy" after the event. Vagueness is a typical tactic of modern day astrologers also-
Jun 20 2011: Dear Richard,
please do not prejudice.
I always read the Arabic version of Koran. and for you I only copy the link of English translate (some times even not read the English translate)
"word for "some" - 'bid', [usually means] between three and nine or ten years."
"it took place in Mesopotamia."
as I know it took place in a place "near Journalism"
also I know where is lowest land. its around dead sea.
""prophesy" after the event."
yes you have this right to not accept. but history says prophet said them before the news reach to Arabia.
this relates to history and history should say the valid reply about prophecy.
please note the place in ancient map. not today map.
the countries border have changed during history. today Iran borders are different of ancient Persia.
please note that my reference says war was in a place "near Journalism" and also ancient Mesopotamia and also death sea.
the 3 place are near each other and perhaps one place in ancient.
please note that the borders of countries change over history and for example today Iran or Iraq is different or ancient Iran or Iraq.
also this is an explain:
Jun 19 2011: SR - "how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?"
Reply - SR you are now clutching at straws like a drowning man. Do you bother to read your own links? The war of 602 - 628 was an almost continuous struggle between the two Empires.
SR - "how Koran knew another war will happen in some years?
how Koran predicted Persian emperor is winner at second war?"
Reply - Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event and incorporated its own "prophesy" within it. I am not saying that is what happened, but will you agree it is a possibility? And if you were a reasonable man and not blinded by your faith, you would agree that is the most probable explanation.
PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered.
SR - "find that the Koran gets the lowest point on Earth wrong too."
please do not conclude quick. where that war happened? we have not still a valid reference for place of that war.
Reply - SR it is YOU who made the claim that it is a miracle, based on it being fought on the lowest land on Earth. So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it was the lowest land on Earth. Not for us to show it was not.
However on the basis of the links you have provided it shows the war was not fought around the Dead Sea and thus it was wrong. -
Jun 19 2011: Richard Dawson....you are arguing one interpretation of the verse on Byzantine........
the other view which is taken by most scholars is that the verse means closest and not lowest......the latter view is really new..and as a student of Islam....I can tell you is weak......I agree with you that it is weak? ok? haha.......
Just because the interpretation is weak does not mean the Quran is weak........because there is another more accepted view.......in fact accepted fully by old scholars of Quranic Exegesis........
The Verse on the Byzantine victory is a miracle in that it predicted- without doubting it's prediction- that the Byzantine Army was going to be victorious on a Day when Muslims will also be victorious.....what I mean by that is :
Read the verse fully:
''in three to ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice''
the last part says that on the day of the victory of the Byzantine empire the Muslims will rejoice in their own victory.......if you read the verse in Arabic it is even more clear.....
This verse was revealed in Makkah..........at that time The Muslims were weak and oppressed and it is quite amazing that the Quran is predicting that the same year or day the Muslims will celebrate their own victory...
now the question is.....did that victory for the Muslims actually occur with the Byzantine victory which the Quran predicted to happen in 3-10 years....
Yes,it did........
The long war which happened between the Byzantines and the Persians was from 604 AD to 628 AD
In the year 616 AD the persians gained a victory.........the polytheists of Makkah were happy because a Christian empire was defeated and they saw it as victory for polytheism against monotheism, so they were celebrating in front of a weak and oppressed and young Muslim community.....The Muslims were annoyed and then God revealed these verses in Question...... -
Jun 19 2011: The persian victory happened Seven years after the prophet Mohammed was sent as a prophet to mankind........
he was sent in the year 610 AD.......so in 616 AD which is 6 or 7 years later the Persians won...
The Quran said that from 616 to 3-9 years the Byzantines would be victorious and on that day the Muslims will also be victorious and rejoice in the Victory of God
The Byzantine victory happened nine years after the Quran said it would happen...
In the 6th year of the prophets immigration to Medina.... the Muslims did gain victory and a big one too.....it was the victory of the treaty of Hudaybiyah which showed the strength of Islam in the Arab peninsula was rising and that they, after being so weak, have become the strongest....the news would usually take a long time to reach the Arabs so the Byzantine victory happened earlier than the Muslim victory but it took a few years for the news to reach.....like all other things at that time.....well known fact...also, it may have happened in year 2 in which the Muslims amazingly won Badr battle.
So....The victory of Byzantine which happened in the Closest land to Makkah (because the Quran was sent down to Meccans first) happened at the same time a victory occured for the Muslims......most Islamic sources say the closest land was probably in Syria...it is closest to Makkah....
as for the 3-9 years question,,,as in why it is so vague.....it is probably because it did not want the Muslims to get over excited and wait for all those years......it kept it vague for a good reason.......The Muslims for the moment had more important things to deal with....that is the spread of Islam...
and also...if you know arabic well you will know that that بضع means a vague number which 3 is the lowest and 9 is the highest .....so it is not vague at all....because arabs use these words for numbers they know......for e.g..... an arab might know that this event will happen in 7 years but still use the word بضع which means 3-9 years... -
Jun 20 2011: "Do you bother to read your own links?"
I read Arabic Koran and send you the link of translate.
"The war of 602 - 628 was an almost continuous struggle between the two Empires."
even in this case still it is prediction.
"Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event "
This is 100% false. Please do not say what you do not know.
I said many times at least 500 known people memorized and wrote Koran at the same time the verse was said by prophet. If you have evidence this is not true please show.
"but will you agree it is a possibility?"
No even 0.000000000001 %. At least not one historian claimed this not from Muslims and not from non-Muslims. Please speak by evidence and proof. Also some famous non Muslim historians recorded the history of Arabia and Islam. For example Will Durant.
"And if you were a reasonable man and not blinded by your faith, you would agree that is the most probable explanation."
There is no evidence for it. And there are thousands of evidence Koran was memorized and written at the same time a verse was said by prophet. For example this verse: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 said by prophet near one week later the news of victory of Roman was reached to Arabia by trading caravans.
I ask you to do some study about history of Koran specially at life of prophet.
"PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered."
The first war was won by roman: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 the second war (or continuous) was won by Persian after 8 years of win of Roman.
"So it is for you to show where the war took place"
As I know they both took place in dead sea.
"we have not still a valid reference for place of that war."
I showed some reference from Wikipedia. But Islamic references say war happened near journalism. Perhaps you reject Islamic references.
"So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it wa -
Jun 20 2011: "So it is for you to show where the war took place and also that it was the lowest land on Earth. Not for us to show it was not."
About lowest land we have no conflict. About war my refrences are Islamic. Do you accept?
"However on the basis of the links you have provided it shows the war was not fought around the Dead Sea and thus it was wrong."
Dead sea and near Journalism and Mesopotamia are not so far. Specially when you are speaking about maps of 1400 years ago perhaps they are same place.
Jun 20 2011: J Ali - "you are arguing one interpretation of the verse on Byzantine"
Answer - It is not I who am arguing this interpretation. This interpretation of the Quran was given by SR, who also states about the Quran "you said these are not clear and I accepted showing other verses more clear (for you. not for me). FOR ME ALL ARE CLEAR."
However we can now examine your interpretation.
J Ali "The Quran said that from 616 to 3-9 years the Byzantines would be victorious and on that day the Muslims will also be victorious and rejoice in the Victory of God...In the year 616 AD the persians gained a victory.. The Byzantine victory happened nine years after the Quran said it would happen...The victory of Byzantine which happened in the Closest land to Makkah [Mecca]"
Reply - The victory of the Byzantines was at Nineveh in December of 627. This makes it 11 years after 616 and not 8 years as claimed by SR or 9 years as claimed by you.
The closest land to Mecca is not Nineveh (near modern day Mosul), if you look at the Atlas there is much more land closer to Mecca than that, starting from the outskirts of Mecca - Medina, Jerusalem, Damascus, Basra, Baghdad.
J Ali "In the 6th year of the prophets immigration to Medina.... the Muslims did gain victory and a big one too.....it was the victory of the treaty of Hudaybiyah..it may have happened in year 2 in which the Muslims amazingly won Badr battle"
Reply - The treaty of Hudaybiyah, Wikipedia informs me, took place in March 628. It didnt seem to be a huge victory, but I'm not going to argue that. The fact is it took place 12 years after 616 and also it was not on the same day as the victory of the Byzantines over the Persians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah.
It was also not on the same day as the Battle of Badr March 13, 624, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr
In short it can be concluded the verse is NOT clear, contains errors and establishes no miracle, no matter what interpretation you take.-
Jun 20 2011: "This interpretation of the Quran was given by SR, "
I only sent you the link of English translate. I read Arabic Koran. not English. I do not know any perfect translate of Koran. I select translate amount all low quality translations. but totally none of translations are good.
seems we should employ some historians to solve this problem.
about Iron atomic number is not it clear?
or asexual is not it clear?
could not you find anything clear?
please check http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/
do you consider any of its articles clear?
did you read Koran before saying Koran is not clear?
also Koran itself guided how to understand clear parts of Koran.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/3351/understanding_quran.html -
Jun 20 2011: Richard...
616 should have been 613..sorry about that....my mistake....in 613 the persians defeated the Romans in the Battle of Antioch.........this was in the third year of the Hijra (islamic calender)......It happened in Syria which WAS the closest land to the Meccans.........closest not lowest.....
In 622 At the battle of Issus, after 9 years, the Byzantines defeated the Persians.........as I said if you had read my comment well.....it takes a few years for the news to reach the Meccans.......
this news came at the same time the Battle of Badr happened in 624.......The Quran predicted that the Muslims will also celebrated in the victory of God........and they Did......
Historical accounts are vague and it could be any where from the second year in the HIjra to the fifth or Sixth......... bearing in mind the time it would take for the news to reach.......
The treaty of Hudaybiyah was considered a huge victory to the Muslims
after being so weak in Makkah they got the Meccan oppressors to make a treaty with them and it showed how strong The Muslims had become
that is why the Quran says on the Day of Hudaybiyah....
'' 33Verily, We have given you (O Muhammad ) a manifest victory.''
As for the closest land......than it was what was called Al-Sham.......Mecca and Medina and all the other places close to Mecca were considered as one country in what was known as Hejaz........Syria and Al sham was the closest land in which the battle of Antioch took place.
Also I did not say that the Quran was saying exactly nine years......I said a period between 3-9 years........now it did happen in that period but historical sources are vague and a bit confusing.........what I have given you in this comment is probably accurate.......
And if you understood Arabic this would be much easier because I would explain that ''Day'' in Arabic is also used as 'period'.......so The Quran predicted that The Muslims and The Byzantines who were weak would both be victorious...
Jun 20 2011: PS J Ali, while I'm about it let me reply to your response to my challenge on another thread.
J Ali "''Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them?'' 21:30
Big Bang....."
Reply - Let me remind you of the challenge - Show just ONE verse in the Quran which mentions just ONE scientific fact, clearly and unambiguously. JUST ONE. (Example E = mc^2, or F = ma, or water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, or fish like us breathe oxygen etc)
Let us take that verse -
One interpretation - The ordinary meaning, the heavens and the Earth were joined together, then "We" [God] parted them and they became separate. The Earth below and the heavens above. (The Quran mentions this elsewhere and also says there are 7 heavens)
Your interpretation - Big bang.
Which impartial person on reading those verses would come to your interpretation? Which interpretation is more plausible?
Conclusion - It does not mention the Big Bang clearly and unambiguously. In fact no reasonable person would say it mentions it at all.
J Ali - "''With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof. " 51:49
The expanding universe.."
Reply - (It is verse 51:47) If that verse was stating that the Universe was expanding it should have said so. But it doesnt. You translation merely states that "We" [God] created the vastness of space. Only some translations even say this. The literal translation from the Royal Aal al-bayt Institute of Jordan merely says "And the heaven, We built it with might, and indeed We are powerful."
The object of the Quran is to impress the reader of the great power of Allah and not to talk about the expanding Universe.
In fact the very next verse continues in the same tone "And the earth, We spread it out: what excellent Spreaders then!" It is not talking about the expanding Earth but merely how Allah with his might spread the Earth out flat.-
Jun 20 2011: Dear Richard,
can you write the BB theory in only one line and then compare it with that verse?
I do no think the kind of clear you want you never see in Koran. please consider the possibility of problem in your eyes.
I think you need such kind of clear:
also please check:
I think it is more clear and more scientific and with more explain. -
Jun 20 2011: The big bang verse is very very clear..........the earth and the heavens is mostly used in the Quran to mean the Universe..........so The universe was joined in one piece and then God parted them........what have the seven heavens got to do with the sky??? if you don't understand the Quran then don't speak....just like when a scientist speaks, I be quiet.....
Ask a scientist to describe the big bang for a child.......thats exactly what he'll say...just like the Quran....I mean thats the simplest explanation of the big bang ever.....The Quran made it easy so people of all times could understand.........
As for the expanding universe verse...........there are actually two interpretations on the verse.........one is the translation you mentioned.......
the other is that we are expanding the universe.......not that we are able as the translation I brought has said.........As a person who understands Arabic very well.....I can tell you that it means that We are (now) Expanding the Universe........
I think it is sad that someone can be like this.....its as if you just don't want the Quran to be right on one thing......even though it is so clear in some verses..........I mean i could come and interpret a scientific statement about the big bang and say that it is not talking about the big bang and all scientists would laugh at me.........
You want the Quran to give you formulas???
The Quran is not a book of Science...........The Quran gives you the fact and lets you think of it.......God is not a scientist...He is the all-knowing......you want to give E = mc^2 to Arabs of 1400 years earlier......That is really funny and quite ridiculous too...... I think I know that even if we give you the clearest verses you will still not accept them....because you are not looking for the truth.....you just want the Quran to be wrong.....The Quran Does not to give you formulas....it gives you what these formulas mean.....easier for humans to understand especially back then...... -
Jun 20 2011: Also there is a big difference between the verse on the expanding universe and the one after it......
the first one uses the word موسعون which means we are expanding and making more..it could also mean we are powerful..from an arabic point of view it is possible...just stop telling me what the translation says....i only give translations for you to understand the verse...I will explain the verse from my understanding of arabic.....موسع means that someone who gives more and more to someone and in the context of the verse it is clearly talking about expanding the universe....this is from an Arabic point of view..but you are going to keep bringing me to different translations when I don't even need one because I understand arabic quite well and have been studying it for a long time.....also it is my mother tongue....The Quran is one....the meaning is one....the interpretation may differ ........and also, the verse is talking of the whole universe as explained above and which is very clear if read in Arabic....
the second verse uses فرشناها means spread and flattened......as in how the earth is flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably........because the verse is talking about the blessings he has given humans.......this does not mean that the earth is not spherical as the Quran has mentioned in other verses...... it is just talking on how the earth is flat and easy for us humans.....
the two words as you can see are very different......even though the verses are in the same context...they do not hold the same meaning.......but still talk on the same topic in those verses -
Jun 20 2011: My tuppence worth. (King James Bible)
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where [is] the fury of the oppressor?
Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Jun 20 2011: Behold the words of SR In chronological order:
Richard – "The lowest land on Earth is around the Dead Sea and the Jordan Valley closest to it, Not Mesopotamia where the battle is supposed to have taken place…"
SR – "why? are you geologist?"
Richard - It is general knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremes_on_Earth
SR - I think this is lowest dry land of earth:
(Hey what have I been telling you above?)
SR – "please note the place in ancient map. not today map. the countries border have changed during history. .. please note that my reference says war was in a place "near Journalism" and also ancient Mesopotamia and also death sea. the 3 place are near each other and perhaps one place in ancient."
(SR your "Journalism" threw me till I finally figured out you meant Jerusalem)
If Mesopotamia, the Dead Sea and Jerusalem were one place 1400 years ago, then it would be truly a miracle. Borders may have changed but places haven't physically moved. Mesopotamia, Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are still where they always were.
None of your references of Wikipedia mentions any battles in the land around the Dead Sea. Your reference of Quranic miracles is the only one that says so, without any reference. The only reference it gives is a link to the Dead Sea. It also mentions the Romans "defeat in Jerusalem, located near the shores of the Dead Sea."
Jerusalem maybe "near" the Dead Sea but that is where the similarity ends. It is in the Judean Mountains at an elevation of 754 m (2,474 ft) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
SR - "Dead sea and near Journalism ... Specially when you are speaking about maps of 1400 years ago perhaps they are same place."
No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were.
SR - "about Iron atomic number is not it clear?" No please refer to my reply
"or asexual is not it clear?" - Yes it is clear Quran is wrong. It says there are no asexual creatures.-
Jun 21 2011: "(SR your "Journalism" threw me till I finally figured out you meant Jerusalem)"
yes. sorry, typo.
"No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were."
I did not say the same place.
I said my references say war happened in a place "NEAR dead sea"
and Jerusalem can be considered near dead sea.
". It is in the Judean Mountains at an elevation of 754 m (2,474 ft)"
I am speaking about "NEAR Jerusalem " not the Jerusalem itself. a high and a low place can be near each other.
"No SR Jerusalem and the Dead Sea are NOT in the same place and never were."
who said they are same? I said near.
"SR - "about Iron atomic number is not it clear?" No please refer to my reply"
sorry I searched but i did not find your reply. its is clear the word iron is repeated same as atomic number of Iron. this is not clear.
""or asexual is not it clear?" - Yes it is clear Quran is wrong. It says there are no asexual creatures. "
why Koran is wrong?
there is few species only CONSIDERED asexual. and you did not show me any certain accepted asexual.
and I think this is your last reply:
"OK this is incredible. We didnt finish the asexual bit."
Jun 20 2011: SR - "Possibly because the Koran was written many years after the event "
"This is 100% false. Please do not say what you do not know." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_Qur%27an
"I said many times at least 500 known people memorized and wrote Koran at the same time the verse was said by prophet. If you have evidence this is not true please show."
The evidence that this is true is what you have to show. It is based only on here-say of people long dead.
"but will you agree it is a possibility?"
SR - No even 0.000000000001 %. At least not one historian claimed this not from Muslims and not from non-Muslims.
"PS Persian Emperor was not the winner, you obviously meant the Byzantine Emperor. But we will forgive you this mistake, you seem to be flustered."
SR - The first war was won by roman: http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/30:2 the second war (or continuous) was won by Persian after 8 years of win of Roman.
Dear SR I rest my case. You have contradicted the Quran (opposite) and also the references you gave. Maybe because you are Persian you were wanting them to win? Please give yourself a rest. You seem confused and flustered.-
Jun 21 2011: about origin of Koran there is no doubt among 1.5Billion Muslim and there is no evidence (even claim) that TEXT of Koran is changed. I do not know how many times I should repeat that the Ottoman Koran is only about standardization of READING METHOD and PRONUNCIATION of Koran. please do not copy links and write your proof if you have any valid argument and evidence about changing in TEXT of Koran.
"The evidence that this is true is what you have to show. "
they were more than 500. but 500 of them are known in history by name and no doubt. and one of them was Aisha. she was a momorizer of whole Koran. those 500 were mostly from companions of prophet and all are from famous first Muslims in histoy of Islam. they are well known by name and even their family tree is known. and from each of them lots of sayings from prophet is recorded in history. also please note Arab people has amazingly very powrful memory. this is also mentioned in this:
"The presence of camels, mountains, desert wells and springs took me back to the year I spent wandering the Sinai Desert. And then there was the language, the rhythmic cadence of it, reminding me of evenings spent listening to Bedouin elders recite hours-long narrative poems entirely from memory. And I began to grasp why it's said that the Koran is really the Koran only in Arabic."
I think God made their memory strong for protecting Koran.
"It is based only on here-say of people long dead."
please study about it. people dead but history is not dead.
if a fact is recorded in history in 1000 separate independent source from different cities and countries with no link then you also doubt it?
how you ensure about Hitler? or history of new Zealand?
please note only doubt is about READING OF KORAN. not TEXT.
"You have contradicted the Quran (opposite) and also the references you gave. "
agree. sorry.
Jun 20 2011: @ Peter - all that seems to show is that bits of the Quran may have been copied from the Bible. Not surprising since the Bible was around at the time the Quran was written.
Having said that could you please keep your tuppences to yourself before I rip you apart on some other conversation. -
Jun 20 2011: @ J Ali "The big bang verse is very very clear....."
Reply - If it is clear at all - it is not about the Big Bang.
The verse:- "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, THEN We parted them, and we made every living thing of water ? Will they not then believe ?" Pickthall
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), BEFORE we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Yusuf Ali
The sense one gets is of a person trying to awe a bunch of doubters with stories of Allah's power. Here is someone telling people the Earth and the "Heavens" (what one can see with ones naked eye above the Earth) EXISTED joined together and THEN the mighty Allah clove them apart.
@ J Ali "Ask a scientist to describe the big bang for a child.......thats exactly what he'll say...just like the Quran....I mean thats the simplest explanation of the big bang ever...."
Sorry J Ali that is nothing like a description of the Big Bang. It could have been mentioned there was no Earth at the time - it came much much later, No "heavens" no stars. The Universe was very small, very dense and very hot. None of these simple but essential facts are mentioned. Just that the "heavens" were joined to the Earth and then "cloven apart".
@ J Ali "the first one uses the word موسعون which means we are expanding and making more..it could also mean we are powerful..from an arabic point of view it is possible..."
So it is NOT clear. And does it mean expanding or expanded? Just like the Earth has already been fattened and not continuously flattening?
@ J Ali "the second verse uses فرشناها means spread and flattened......as in how the earth is flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably...."
Thank you J Ali for confirming another verse where the Quran says the Earth is flat.-
Jun 21 2011: "Reply - If it is clear at all - it is not about the Big Bang."
name is not important. both are describing same thing in two name.
also please note this is not the only verse about start of creation. if you consider all of those verses together other descriptions of BB are mentioned in Koran. for example Kora says in one stage universe was like a red flower. or one stage was gas and one stage all things were water also many other verses. they all should be considered together.
"Thank you J Ali for confirming another verse where the Quran says the Earth is flat. "
flattened is different of flat. flat has two meaning. you only stick to your believes and do not accept any thing else. does the change option exist in your brain?
also he said: "flat so that we can walk and live on it freely and comfortably." it is different of flat like a plate. please do not misquote for your benefit.
Jun 20 2011: Finally J Ali as Jim Lloyd puts it there is nothing miraculous about coincidental occurrences of something that appears to be remotely resembling a scientific fact. "In any large text if you search for similar coincidences you will find some. But in the process you automatically skip over all of the failed coincidences, i.e. text where there might have been similar coincidence but there wasn't. This is the Cherry Picking fallacy."
As I have shown you have to ignore the obvious discrepancies within even one verse to torture out any scientific explanation from it.
You have to ignore the message of the verses - what are they about? Telling you about the Universe? If so they have got it wrong, or pulling out some unverifiable assertions and trying to impress the ignorant audience?
You have to ignore the subsequent verses "And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance." which are clearly unscientific.
And of course there is the mandatory promise of hell in this and every chapter, if you do not believe, to clinch the argument.
"If only the Unbelievers knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the fire from their faces, nor yet from their backs, and (when) no help can reach them!"
"They would not be so unreasonable if they only realised the terrible future for them! The Fire will envelop them on all sides, and no help will then be possible. Is it not best for them now to turn and repent?"
Oh yes that should settle unbelief alright.-
Jun 21 2011: Richard Dawson...............
read the first paragraph on the Big Bang for kids...and you..
the thing you can't understand is that the verse clearly says the universe........the universe was joined together in one piece..........if you read it in arabic it says السماوات والأرض which means the whole universe..........the Heavens also means the Universe.......now if you don't want to accept that, then I don't really care........the verse says that the Heavens and The Earth WERE one united piece..........and that is definitely what the big bang is saying......
And when the Quran uses the word ''did they not see'' it usually means ''did they not know''
as in knowledge of something...........أو لم ير means the sight of knowledge as is clear in Arabic......
As for the verse which says the Earth is Flat.......I explained what is meant by the earth is flat is that it is smooth and easy for us to walk on and live on..........there are many verses in the Quran which say the Earth is spherical
''And We made the people who were considered weak to inherit the easts of the land and the wests thereof which We have blessed.''
''But nay! I swear by the Lord of the rising-places and the setting-places of the planets that We verily are Able''
''Lord of the heavens and of the earth and all that is between them, and Lord of the sun's risings.''
All the Easts and all the Wests
''Until when he comes to Us, he says: O would that between me and you there were the distance of the East and the West; so evil is the associate!''
the word used in this verse is مشرقين which means the two sun rising points.......it is pointing to the fact that the earth is spherical...........
anyway.......the verse is very clear in the big bang.........don't accept it if you don't want.......you asked for someone to give a clear verse and I did........but you had planned not to accept it anyway.........
on the mountains..... -
Jun 21 2011: on the mountains.........
read this link
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080605150912.htm where it talks of the mountains being roots.........science hasn't even known this fact yet.....they are close to understanding it......just because science hasn't got a fact on this yet doesn't mean that you can state that it is definitely not a fact and never will be i.e not scientific.......not knowing is not, knowing that something is not.......
''But this Day (the Day of Resurrection) those who believe will laugh at the disbelievers''
just as you may laugh now.....I will laugh at you on the Day of Judgment.......you are unwilling to accept verses scientific or not........because you have decided not to......I always win against knowledgeable people......but always lose against ignorant people......
The mandatory promise of hell is mentioned with the mandatory promise of heaven usually and the promise of hell should be mentioned for people like you........that it is the truth of life......there will be a day of judgment and unbelievers will be in hell, believers will be in heaven.......you can't deny that until you see it not happening......but when it does happen....what will you say?!
''Say: "Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received Guidance."
20:135.......mentioning the fact that the Believers will gain victory.....
''and does it mean expanding or expanded?''
No....it means expanding....موسعون means now and continuously.....it is the present-future tense....
you are ignorant........just because there are verses which haven't been proven yet...like the mountain verse......does not mean they will not in the future.........they are getting close as in the link I sent....
Coincidence......what coincidence??.....the verses are clear...
The promise of hell and heaven is what we were created for.......either heaven or no -
Jun 21 2011: Get me one verse in the Bible which talks on the Big Bang and the expanding universe....and then I will accept the coincidences....one scientific error in the Quran..?
The Quran is not a coincidence....It is a Book of Guidance from God....some verses in it are scientific and some are great philosophical proofs which the likes of Avicenna accepted without doubt.....and some are verses on the Day of Judgment and some are on God......and some are and some are...the MAIN miracle of the Quran for Arabs is that not one Arab could ever bring one chapter the likes of the Quran......nor will any Arab be able to do so.....the miracle for non-arabs is everything else in the Quran....Laws....science....ethics...philosophical proofs..
''which are clearly unscientific''
How so? What the Quran is saying is that the mountains act as pegs and keep the earths crust from moving.........Maybe science will one day prove this.....and it will.......read the link I gave you.......just because it is not a fact yet.....doesn't mean you can dismiss it outright.......that is clear ignorance on your part.....
Read the Book fully until you can begin to understand it........
Anyway, I have met many people like you ......who have planned earlier not to accept anything.........that said, I respect your views and respect the way you like to argue....and I don't hate you........I hope one day you will reach your final goal......whatever that may be.....but the truth will also come......
We were created for everlasting life....with no difficulties....I invite you to that.....
''Except him on whom your Lord has bestowed His Mercy and for that did He create them''
The Bible has many errors.. we believe it was corrupted...The Quran has none......and all these claimed errors have been refuted time and time again........but a person will always look for what he likes....in this case, Islam being wrong...Islam is the Truth......Islam is submission....Read the Quran yourself fully please...
Jun 21 2011: J Ali "read the first paragraph on the Big Bang for kids...and you.. http://www.esa.int/esaKIDSen/SEMSZ5WJD1E_OurUniverse_0.html"
You think I wouldnt read it? "Most astronomers believe the Universe began in a Big Bang about 14 billion years ago. At that time, the entire Universe was inside a bubble that was thousands of times smaller than a pinhead. It was hotter and denser than anything we can imagine."
Quran "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), BEFORE we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
Yes they are so similar - NOT. Please that is describing the Big Bang? You must think I am pretty incredulous to believe that.
Instead of mentioning there was no Earth at the time, No "heavens" or stars, it states both were around and cloven asunder. And you still think thats the Big Bang? Shows how little you know about the theory.
J Ali "Get me one verse in the Bible which talks on the Big Bang and the expanding universe....and then I will accept the coincidences....one scientific error in the Quran..?"
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
That is far more coincidentally correct than the Quran. The early Universe was composed mostly of light.
The scientific errors (and others) in the Quran are numerous. How about this very one about the Big Bang about the Earth and the Heavens being around? and cloven apart?
J Ali "on the mountains....... read this link
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080605150912.htm where it talks of the mountains being roots..."
Did you again think I would not read it? "Mountain Ranges Rise Much More Rapidly Than Geologists Expected" - Roots indeed - you are desperate to believe - not scientific-
Jun 21 2011: ''At that time, the entire Universe was inside a bubble that was thousands of times smaller than a pinhead.''
Haha, I knew you would read it, thats why I asked you to....
This sentence says that THIS entire universe was inside a bubble........oh but wait, this universe didn't exist back then...how wrong this sentence is.......your logic is ridiculous and funny......
thats how humans speak.......the universe (the heavens and the earth as the Quran says) was one united piece...you have misunderstood the translation...ask any arab to read the arabic script and he will tell you that the verse says '' and then we clove them asunder''......its like when you say that this adult was once a young child.....oooh what a mistake because THIS Adult didn't exist back then.....thats funny........you want the Quran to be wrong so bad that you can start saying ridiculous things......
The Quran talks of a gaseous state of the Universe which is what scientists say......
as I said before.......before you even start an argument....you plan to not accept any thing other then that which is in your arrogant head....... -
Jun 21 2011: I actually thought that you would read the last article......
'' On the surface, the buckling manifests itself as a rising mountain range, but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down like an anchor, says Garzione. Conventional tectonic theory says that convection of the fluid mantle deep in the Earth slowly erodes this heavy root like a stream wearing down a rock, allowing mountains to gradually rise as the crust shortens and thickens''
like an anchor..........
''And the mountains as pegs?''
Jun 21 2011: @ Jim Lloyd "Does it change your thoughts about the numerical coincidences in the Koran if ..."
Jim you must be joking. SR's faith is impervious to reason or evidence. This argument is only for the uncommitted logical people listening in whose minds may still be open.
@ J Ali "This sentence says that THIS entire universe was inside a bubble........oh but wait, this universe didn't exist back then...how wrong this sentence is.......your logic is ridiculous and funny......"
Stop trying to play around with semantics. The visible "heavens" and Earth existed in Muhammad's time. Thats what he was talking about. He nor the Quran had any concept of what they were or the vastness of space. It is even claimed he walked on the Milky way and returned in one night.
It was a simple matter for him to say - you see this heaven and you see this Earth, they weren't around when the Universe began (NOT created, began). Instead he said they both existed but were joined together and the great and powerful Allah clove them apart (with a mighty chisel, I'm guessing).
Sorry J Ali "The big bang verse" is "very very clear" about not being anything like the Big Bang
The Quran says "Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs?"
The science digest article says "When oceanic and continental plates come together, geologists believe the continental crust buckles. On the surface, the buckling manifests itself as a rising mountain range, but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down like an anchor, says Garzione. Conventional tectonic theory says that convection of the fluid mantle deep in the Earth slowly erodes this heavy root like a stream wearing down a rock, allowing mountains to gradually rise as the crust shortens and thickens."
Jun 21 2011: ''Stop trying to play around with semantics. The visible "heavens" and Earth existed in Muhammad's time. Thats what he was talking about. He nor the Quran had any concept of what they were or the vastness of space. It is even claimed he walked on the Milky way and returned in one night.''
If you didn't hate Islam so much you wouldn't have said that..........I could say the same thing about statements from scientists ....but I accept proof...and I accept what is clear.....
Again you show that you are ignorant of what Islam is and what it teaches........when did I or any of the Islamic sources say that he (Peace be Upon Him) walked the Milky way in one night and return??!
The Quran says the Mountains are pegs.read the verse again........now if you don't know what a peg is and how similar it is to a root which acts as an anchor as the article says......then I don't know what to do......
Again you hate Islam so much.....ridiculous statements from you.......statements of a true loser......
The Earth is actually MOST UNSTABLE at the plate boundaries where the mountain ranges are. This is opposite to the Quran saying that mountains act as pegs keeping the Earth stable.''
When did the Quran say the mountain areas are stable?? and was it even talking about earthquakes??
I won't go any further but please read this article
it's an explanation......
Muhammed (PBUH) knew very well what he was saying......it is very clear.....and it's what science is trying to understand.....read the article and don't be biased...
I have been brainwashed?! who brainwashed me?! that is really funny........well then maybe Avicenna was also brainwashed and maybe Averroes too.....and Maybe all the Great Muslim Scientists and philosophers of the past were also brainwashed.........I have been studying Islam for years......I have compared it's arguments with other Arguments with no Bias.....because I want to find the truth......Islam is that.. -
Jun 21 2011: And whatever you say......More and more people who are looking for the truth are embracing Islam......do you really think God cares about the people who leave Islam?? do you think I really care??
''O ye who believe! Ye have charge of your own souls. He who erreth cannot injure you if ye are rightly guided. Unto Allah ye will all return; and then He will inform you of what ye used to do.''
Jun 21 2011: "However, according to Garzione, the delamination theory suggests that instead of eroding slowly away, the root heats up and oozes downward like a drop of molasses until it abruptly breaks free and sinks into the hot fluid mantle. The mountains above, suddenly free of the weight of the blob, would rush upward and, in the case of the Andes, lift from a height of less than two kilometers to about four kilometers in less than 4 million years."
That article is not saying the mountains are either pegs or anchors or roots. According to this theory the mountains rise faster when the root breaks free and sinks into the hot fluid mantle.
The Earth is actually MOST UNSTABLE at the plate boundaries where the mountain ranges are. This is opposite to the Quran saying that mountains act as pegs keeping the Earth stable.
@ J Ali "What the Quran is saying is that the mountains act as pegs and keep the earths crust from moving.........Maybe science will one day prove this....you are ignorant........just because there are verses which haven't been proven yet...like the mountain verse......does not mean they will not in the future..."
Talk about confirmation bias. The Quran is the truth, now they just have to prove it.
J Ali "I have met many people like you ......who have planned earlier not to accept anything"
I have not planned not to "accept anything", there is nothing you have shown me that is acceptable. You on the other had have planned not to accept anything contrary to your beliefs.
"I don't hate you" Thank you J Ali, why should you? There is no reason for us to hate each other. But there are many of your co-religionists who hate us for not believing what you and they believe.
Also you only believe what you do because you have been brainwashed to so believe from childhood. But many of your former believers have managed to break free from their beliefs.-
Jun 21 2011: '', but beneath the crust, the buckling creates a heavy, high-density "root" that holds the crust down LIKE AN ANCHOR''
Anchor.....Peg........you are lost.....
''uncommitted logical people''
The math ''miracle'' is not accepted by most Muslim scholars and Muslims.......
but Muslims were always the most committed logical people.....unless of course the likes of Avicenna you don't consider to be logical......I dare you to say that to any philosopher....
and my reply to your previous comments is over this comment that I am replying on.....so read it....sorry about that.
Jun 21 2011: @ J Ali ".when did I or any of the Islamic sources say that he (Peace be Upon Him) walked the Milky way in one night and return??"
OK I thought I read about that - but maybe I was mistaken. It wasnt the milky way. But he is supposed to have traveled from Mecca to Jerusalem and back in one night. And from Jerusalem was he not supposed to have ascended to heaven?
"If you didn't hate Islam so much you wouldn't have said that..........I could say the same thing about statements from scientists."
What has hate got to do with this? Except for the fact that you are so ready to hate anyone who rationally questions your beliefs. You can say anything you like about statements from scientists. Thats what science is about questioning and arguments, not blind belief.
"statements of a true loser......" Now now J Ali calm down.
@ J Ali "When did the Quran say the mountain areas are stable?? and was it even talking about earthquakes??"
Quran 21:31 "And We set in the earth firm mountains lest it should shake with them,.."
The mountains prevent the Earth from shaking according to the Quran.
@ J Ali "I have been brainwashed?! who brainwashed me?! that is really funny.."
No not funny. But as to who brainwashed you, who taught you Islam from childhood? They are the people who brainwashed you.
@ J Ali "do you really think God cares about the people who leave Islam??"
The Allah invented by Islam seems to care very much.
He tells Muslims to kill such people
Quran 4:89, 9:11-12, Bukhari (52:260), Bukhari (83:37), Bukhari (84:57), Bukhari (84:58), Bukhari (89:271), Bukhari (84:64-65), Abu Dawud (4346)-
Jun 21 2011: His ascension to Heaven was with the soul......
''You can say anything you like about statements from scientists. ''
What I meant was a scientific statement which everyone agrees on.....and then I interpret it and say, you know what?' they didn't actually mean it.....
My parents would teach me about Islamic teachings and I would always question them and argue since I was young....I have studied Islam rationally myself....and I have reached the same conclusion as philosophers like Avicenna...who I keep mentioning, haha, but for a good reason.....because you think Muslims are stupid....
do you know how old I am? I'm only 15.....my parents should now be in the act of ''brainwashing'' me....I think of everything independently.....and FYI, Islam is probably the most religion that stands strongly against blind-following and copying.....I'd agree with you that most Muslims don't even understand their faith....but that's them, not Islam.....There are Muslims and then there is Islam.......I am not happy with what they do......some are so brainwashed that they kill innocent children.....do you think I am happy with that??
That is why Islam stood so strongly against blind-following and that is why so many great philosophers and scientists were Muslims......and it's not going to happen again for Muslims until they start thinking properly again.....From my reading of the Islamic Sources, the most annoyed person on todays Muslim is the Prophet Muhammed himself.......
In short, I think you are absolutely right that most religious people are brainwashed...thats probably why most religious (Muslims and non-Muslims too) people are crazy and weird..and I know many Muslim scholars who stand against this.......
as for the shaking earth , the word used in arabic is تميد which means slanting and leaning left and right......not shaking....i'm sorry about that poor translation.....of course shaking happens with slanting and leaning but the word used does not mean shake....
. -
Jun 21 2011: both the verses you mentioned were in a special context and that is the context of war......We believe God doesn't have feelings and that every law of islam is for mankind's good and not God...because we believe God does not need anything..........Muslims can only kill non-Muslims in a time of war and in self-defence........or for crimes...like killing a human being.....
as for the Bukhari Hadiths and narrations.......The Islamic school I follow believes that only the Quran is 100% authentic........Narrations are totally accepted but they first have to be authentic.........Bukhari is only fully authentic in the Sunni sect while In My sect- Shia Islam- Hadiths may be authentic and they may be not.......
God tells us to kill and fight people who attack us and oppress us.....I think any one would accept that......Thats why you have countries at war now.....it is self defense which is obviously right and logical enough.......
But Islamic laws on war are far more advanced than laws today......If you want I can explain further but I think that would be outside this topic.....
As for Apostasy in Islam.....it is accepted in my sect.....but cannot be done by anyone on the street......it is done only in a majority Muslim country with a Just Muslim leader......and cannot be done by anyone........in our case the Just Ruler would be The prophet Muhammed and after him -in Shia Islam- his twelve successors.......it is considered to be an act of treason against the Islamic state and an act of war if done in public so that everyone knows about it.............so now if A Muslim leaves his religion in London for e.g....no Muslim can kill him.....or even touch him.......only in Muslim countries ruled by a Just Islamic Ruler after proof is given.....it might seem very strange for you to kill an apostate for being one......but if you were a Muslim and you understood what it means to leave Islam and how great a sin it was.....maybe you wouldn't.....
Jun 21 2011: @ J Ali "because you think Muslims are stupid." I never said that. Nor do I think that.
If you are indeed 15 then there is hope for you. But I am a sceptic. I look at the evidence and then judge with that what is probably correct or probably false. Science deals with probabilities.
There is hope for you only if you keep an open mind. By saying science will eventually prove the Quran to be correct is not keeping an open mind. You have reached your conclusion and now are seeking the proof.
Science sees the evidence then draws its conclusions. You are doing the opposite of that.
@ J Ali "That is why Islam stood so strongly against blind-following and that is why so many great philosophers and scientists were Muslims...."
Every bit of Islam demands blind faith and following. Islam did nothing to foster its "Golden Age" other than it conquering and cannibalising other civilisations like the Persian, Egyptian, Greek, Byzantine, Indian etc.
Islam discourages knowledge outside of itself.
This is what one ex-Muslim had to say about the great thinkers that Muslims bring out as showpieces:
What about the great minds of Islamic world, like Zakaria Razi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Khayyam, Ibn Arabbi, Al Muari and many more? Shouldn't we thank Islam for rearing these luminaries?
Jun 21 2011: Maybe you misunderstood me......I didn't ask science to prove the Quran.......Because the Quran is not only a book of science....it is a book of Guidance...The Quran itself is what proves itself right .....as for the scientific verses.....none have been proven to be wrong and the scientific verses of which there is no proof now....there may be in the future......that is what I meant......what I meant was that you cannot definitely say The Quran is wrong because there is no proof for this verse......someday there might be.........as for me as a Muslim, I believe the Quran is from God..and that it is not in conflict with science...because I believe God is all-knowledgable... therefore , after believing that the Quran is from God then i must believe that everything in it is correct...and that is why it must not be in conflict with science....and it isn't......some verses haven't been shown by science to be true.....but that doesn't mean we can dismiss the book...especially since we believe it is from God....
As for ''The Allah invented by Islam''
No one just said that This is Allah and we believe in him regardless of whether there is logical and philosophical proof or not.......
All our beliefs are based on philosophical and logical proof.....everything after that is based on those beliefs.....so that everything in the end is based on philosophical and logical proof.....Anything which is in conflict with science is not Islamic...I can tell you
Avicenna and Averroes accepted everything the Quran said about God........in fact they came up with brilliant philosophical proofs on God in light of what the Quran says on God........
I don't think anyone can say the likes of them made up there own God......there proofs and logic reached to that conclusion..and you have to admit that they were great, great philosophers and logicians.....and after studying the ideas of philosophies and religions....I conclude with them that Islam is correct....and that The Quran is from Go
Jun 21 2011: "We should thank Islam for rearing Khomeini, Bin Laden, Umar and Ali. They killed people inspired by Islam. The thinkers of Islamic world were almost all apostates. Ibn Sina did not believe in the immortality of the soul and did not believe in a god that cares about the creation. His concept of God was very much similar to that of Espinoza. He was attacked vehemently by Ghazali because of that. But he was a genius who started to teach medicine at the age of 20. His life was spared because he was much needed and because in those days we had tolerant governors who were more secular than religious. Khayyam was obviously an apostate as you can see from every robai that he composed. Hafiz memorized Quran before he reached the age of 15. But as you see there is no praise of Muhammad in his poetries when he became an adult and could think independently. Only a non-religious humanist would say: "Mei bekhor manbar besoozan, mardoom aazaari makon." (Drink and burn the pulpit but don't hurt people) This is totally opposite with Muhammad's instructions who prohibited drinking wine, used the pulpit and ordered killing the non-believers. Ar Razi spoke fearlessly against all the religions calling the Prophets disdainfully "Billy Goats" and liars. These truths have been kept hidden from us. We have been lied to constantly. First the Muslims persecuted these apostates and after their death they credited Islam with their great works and contributions to science and learning.
The reason the Golden Age in the Islamic world became possible was because the rulers in those days were more secular than religious and they tolerated the apostasy of the great minds who in turn contributed to science. "
And read here too if you are questioning
Jun 21 2011: Big Big lies..............I have studied Avicenna's works and Averroes too...Why would any one lie like that?!
As for Bin Laden and other Terrorists.......Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) was not a terrorist anyway...but thats something different........I don't like terrorists as I said earlier......and they aren't even Muslims.......
Ghazali attacked philosophy in general because he only accepted what hadiths said.....all hadiths even if they are not authentic.......where as the philosophers of Islam did not believe all Hadiths were correct......for example....Ghazali might believe in a God who has a body.....why? because a Hadith says so......
Whereas philosophers say that not all hadiths are correct.....that some are not authentic and that the prophet did not say them.........The Quran itself says that There is nothing like God and therefore we should disregard hadiths that say god has a body because it contradicts the Quran which is 100% authentic........
that was an example.......
Ibn Sina never did believe in an Espinoza God.......
I have read his books and studied them......a lot of the great proofs on Allah of the Quran given by Muslims today are given by Ibn Sina.....There is a whole school which accepts the proofs which prove the Quran right....HIkmah Mutaliyah.
I don't know what to say to lies........Nasir al Din al Tusi was a great Shia Philosopher and a student of Avicennian philosophy......All philosophical proofs mentioned in these philosophers books are accepted by the Quran......in fact these philosophers- because they were Muslims- accepted what the Quran said and then thought of it and afterwards gave philosophical proofs on what The Quran was saying....
one verse for example is
''There is nothing like Him''
42 11
Avicenna proved this in his books......
They can lie to people who don't know Avicenna well....but they can't lie to me.....whats the point of lying anyway.....it shows that they have to resort to lying..... -
Jun 21 2011: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayyám
Read what Hossein Nasr has to say about his Poems on Wine........they are not authentic....it is a well accepted fact between Muslim Scholars and Philosophers in this present time.......
Thats what I mean when I say that you should ask A Muslim on what He believes and on what Scholars said........
as an analogy : would you accept what Iran has to say about America and its presidents and leaders?
same thing here.......why would you accept what people who hate Islam have to say about it....its illogical.....ask Muslims what they believe and read the books of the Muslim scholars......
People like Ghazali and Razi were Sunni Muslim Scholars who just took any Hadith and accepted it even if it contradicted the Quran itself.......its a famous Muslim school called the Muhaditha......
whereas in Shia Islam the Hadiths are put to a test in whether they are in conflict with the Quran (which is the only Islamic source which is completely authentic) or not;;;;
and Logic is always used.........
Jun 21 2011: This is my last statement in this conversation. I had issued a challenge to produce just one verse in the Quran that clearly and unequivocally, without further explanation, stated one scientific fact.
@ J Ali "You want the Quran to give you formulas???
The Quran is not a book of Science...........The Quran gives you the fact and lets you think of it.......God is not a scientist...He is the all-knowing......you want to give E = mc^2 to Arabs of 1400 years earlier......That is really funny and quite ridiculous too...... I think I know that even if we give you the clearest verses you will still not accept them....because you are not looking for the truth.....you just want the Quran to be wrong.....The Quran Does not to give you formulas....it gives you what these formulas mean.....easier for humans to understand especially back then......"
I just gave the formulas as an example of what the Quran could have given as a clear scientific statement IF it was from an all knowing God as it claims.
If it had said something like water consists of two gases, that would have been acceptable also as revealing something that was not known at the time.
But all you and SR have been able to come up with is some verses which read literally are false, but claimed to reveal things like the Big Bang and the expanding Universe etc only after elaborate and torturous reasoning.
Thus it can be concluded that you have not been successful in meeting my challenge.
Goodnight and Auf Weidersehen, Au revoir.-
Jun 21 2011: you can conclude that.....but only you.......I would conclude that I have shown you verses but you wouldn't accept.....
I don't really care then.......
Just read my comments well and my arguments......you didn't even answer the full comment...you would choose a part and answer it .....leaving the rest of it which implies that you do not even have an answer for it........probably searching sites which are anti-Islam
I answered all of your arguments.......you didn't answer back.......you just kept giving me links from Muslim-haters and telling me what I believe when your facts on Islam were totally wrong........
''only after elaborate and torturous reasoning.''
I gave the verse without explaining it because it was so clear.......and then you began claiming that it wasn't clear and that they were false and you kept going on....forcing me to answer your questions.....and i did....
I answered your challenge but you kept disagreeing...
every time I asked you to answer my questions you would run away and reply on something else......interpreting the verses in ridiculous fashion........
I can conclude that you lost this argument......but you are going to laugh just as I laughed at you claiming that we lost........maybe if you understood Arabic well this would have been much much easier....
so there really is no point......
I wish you the best of luck........and as I said before.....if you want to know the Quran...don't ask Muslim Haters.....be your own respondent......read it yourself....
''Then there is hope for you''
-Richard Dawson
Good Luck....
Comment deleted
Jun 15 2011: Dear Paul van Zoggel,
Oh! you made me happy. finally I could find some one trying to learn some thing from Koran instead of fighting Koran. congratulate you. you understand Koran is different of Arabs and Muslims and try to catch truth without prejudice about Koran.
'What are the words to give to students from Qu'ran when it comes to Management and Entrepreneurship?"
I have a book with 300 teach of Koran about management. here I type some:
1- before creating Adam, Satan was a very good being and worshiped God for 6000 years and growed until came the level of angels and become among angels. so Satan had 600 years of positive experience. when God created Adam ordered to all angels:
Satan said I have 6000 years of positive experience and now I should be lower than Adam?!
but God had been said them before:
"Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
so we understand in management the knowledge and specialty is more important than time of past working.
so a manager should value the experts more than old employees. and also rewards and positions and preferment in management should be according to knowledge and specialty not according to old (fossil employees)
there are many other teaches from Koran but its long. if you are interested let me know to write them here summery or find a good English reference for you.
Jun 13 2011: @ Matthieu "In my challenge I said that you needed to quote "a passage in the Koran which isn't ambiguous."
Challange: produce just one passage in the Quran which UNAMBIGUOUSLY states a scientific fact. For example that the Earth is round and not flat
The verse must be -
شفاف و بدون ابهام
Clear and Unambiguous
است گذشت تنها در قرآن که به وضوح هر ایالت و این پدیده ها صحیح مدرن دانش علمیوجود ندارد
(There is not a single passage in the koran which clearly and unmistakably states any correct modern scientific knowledge)-
Jun 13 2011: "(There is not a single passage in the koran which clearly and unmistakably states any correct modern scientific knowledge) "
sure? I disagree
please read this:
please read first verses of chapter Rome. it clearly and unmistakably states any correct modern scientific knowledge:
that the place that war happened is the lowest land of earth.
Jun 12 2011: "Dear Jason Kather,
it is wrong.
Koran has not such claim.
but Koran claimed about sea.
Koran said the the two sea ( the sweet sea and the salty sea) does not mix although there is no wall between them.
it is about sea not salt and water."
can you show me the verses you claim
[25.53] And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.
Pretty silly claim, but I already explained to you, I will not be arguing science with you due to your extreme lack of any type of scientific method in your arguments. The fact of the matter is that many followers of the Koran believe that salt water cannot mix with fresh water because of some invisible barrier. Absolute nonsense.
This original question was not aimed at you though, it was a response to Richard Dawkins. I find it puzzling that you would respond to this and not the direct response i had toward you, S.R. Ahmadi.-
Jun 12 2011: Dear Jason Kather,
why you attack me?
it is clear that it is saying about sea.
not water.
do you disagree such phenomena exist in some seas?
"This original question was not aimed at you though, it was a response to Richard Dawkins."
sorry I apologize.
do you let me participate in your debate?-
Jun 12 2011: I do not attack you, but I do attack the way by which you claim your "facts". It is clear to me that the passage talks about drinkable water as opposed to not drinkable water. There is much evidence of followers of the Koran believing that salt water and fresh water do not mix.
On the other point, of course you may participate in all conversations. I would ask that you add your opinions, as i value your feelings on subjects and try to better myself by more fully understanding you and your thoughts. However, I still find it odd that you do not respond to the line of questioning directed at you and in line with the argument you set forth in your topic of discussion. I spoke no differently in the formation of my post in question than I have at any other time, yet you understood previous posts perfectly well. I will make the arguments in a simpler form to promt a response, if that would help. I would also suggest the various translator tools available through your computer as a way to bridge the language gap when there is one.-
Jun 13 2011: "drinkable water"
please show it exact in the text.
it is about sea. not water:
I wonder how it says about water and salt.
I apologize for my of conversions.
please note we are from different cultures and also my English is not perfect.
sorry and I only can say:
I apologize for my of conversions.
and I ask you please teach me learn way of talk.
really they are unintentional and I apologize you and I ask you teach me.
Comment deleted
Jun 11 2011: A little humor helps in hopeless situations....
I've quantified and tabulated all the comments here in this debate and have the results, which I will disclose to everyone now:
SR wins the debate.
How? By baiting us into thinking it was a debate of ideas about the Koran being a scientific miracle. The real debate SR wants to engage in (forever, in open-ended style) is whether or not he can explain away all divergent views by quoting the Koran. He clearly can. We'd run into the same wall if this were any other religious fundamentalist.
So SR, you win.
Actually you tricked me.
I thought I was getting involved in a conversation/debate that would enlighten me about your beliefs. Instead, I've got this big lump on my head from banging into the wall and now I've got to go get it taken care of. -
Jun 12 2011: Dear Jim Moonan,
thanks for explain about "Oh ye of little faith"
prophet Muhammad has such saying:
"the most powerful people in Believe and the greatest people in certainty are people of end of world. they have not seen any prophet and have do not have any Imam (like apostle). but they believe on some black on white"
about haulocast I there is many conflict between historians and I do not know which are true. and it is not as important as the religion and Hell and so on. if I do not know truth about God and religion there is a risk to I go Hell but if I do not know truth about haulocast there is not such risk and I will not be asked about haulocast at judgement day. so research aboout haulocast is not in my priority list. but if it was important as religion I presonally would research about it out of what say historians by contradict.
"Actually you tricked me.
I thought I was getting involved in a conversation/debate that would enlighten me about your beliefs. Instead, I've got this big lump on my head from banging into the wall and now I've got to go get it taken care of."
actually I did not understand what exact you mean. I do not know you are speaking serious or you are kidding me?"
also If there is a winner it is Koran/Allah (God). not me.
Jun 11 2011: Dear Richard,
you said in other topic:
"The Earth being described as flat in the Quran, it is not only 1 verse but every verse and I had quoted these to you."
if EVERY VERSES then please explain how below verses show earth is flat?
1- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/55:17 9a flat earth has one east and one west)
2- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:5 how in a flat earth night covers on day and day covers on night?
3- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/79:30 (دحاها means spereadig and also means the egg of struthious (emu). so it means expanding (suitable for settlement) in the shape of an large egg)
4- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/25:61 (سراج means light (and source of light) and منير means reflector of light like mirror. so Koran understands difference between light of sun and moon then Indeed he knows earth is not flat)
also other verses exist.
you insist some verses like:
5- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:22 (we made earth like a carpet)
6- http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/13:3 (we made earth flat [there is no better translate for مددنا than flat. also مددنا is a verb. not a noun] the earth. مددنا means expanding in a flat shape without low and high land like a carpet. but still a very large carpet can have the sphere shape)
means that earth is flat.
I disagree you. maybe you say you are translating Koran in your benefit. but I think other verses of Koran are interpreting the verses you insist clearly.
if you want to stick only to verses that are in your benefit then OK Koran says earth is flat. but if consider all verses of Koran about earth then what is the result? please reply honestly.-
Jun 11 2011: Dear SR "maybe you say you are translating Koran in your benefit" and maybe you are too?
Very large carpet is like a sphere? I have never seen one like that. Why is the Quran trying to confuse us?
79:30 does not mean an Ostrich egg (not emu Australia was not discovered as yet) it means like the nest of the Ostrich egg, which spreads out the sand to make it flat before laying the egg.
Does not the Quran itself claim it is a clear book? Why could it not have said that the Earth was spherical when Arabic has a word for sphere and it never uses it once for the shape of the Earth.
And please reply to Jason below-
Jun 12 2011: Dear Richard,
"Dear SR "maybe you say you are translating Koran in your benefit" and maybe you are too?"
yes maybe!
so better to have a judge about translation. OK?
for example do you have a honest Arab friend?
or do you can offer a valid reference Arabic to Arabic dictionary (with explaining the exact meaning and the root of each word?
also why I should change the translate of Koran? what is its benefit for me?
or any kind of judgement you offer.
"Very large carpet is like a sphere?"
I said CAN be like sphere. I mean if some one says I spread-ed out the earth like a carpet it does not necessarily means that earth is like a plate. it also can mean that it is suitable for settlement and has not much high/low land like mountains. so which meaning you select? why?
"79:30 does not mean an Ostrich egg"
please find the exact meaning in Arabic dictionaries. it is also one meaning of it. about emu Australia I did not know I only used the dictionary to can transfer the meaning to you. OK I agree you. so emu is not usable here.
"Does not the Quran itself claim it is a clear book?"
which verse you mean?
as I know Koran says: we made Koran easy [to understand]
also not all parts of Koran are clear. some parts clear and some parts complicated.
also it is clear for us. but some times a translator of Koran makes a mistake (or not perfect correct because lack or words in English) and western people stick and insist on that translate and want to prove Koran has error and even do not read Koran and only insist on that one error in translate and leave tons of useful information of Koran. this is not problem of Koran. this is problem of western people. -
Jun 12 2011: "Why could it not have said that the Earth was spherical when Arabic has a word for sphere "
I do not know exact why God did not as you want. but this is my opinion:
Koran is not only for one time.
Koran is for start of Islam until end of world.
so Koran always should have fresh and updated information according to adveance of sciense to always by discovering new scientific facts Koran always have miracles to be proved it is really from God. God did not send any religion/Book after Koran and so this means Koran is the most updated book until the end of world.
so Koran should be miracle for all people including 1400 years ago and today and also many years later. so it should include many more scientific facts than what we today know.
if Koran only wanted to say earth is sphere it could say it. but if Koran want to say lots of facts about earth in the most compact sentences so it should be like this Koran.
Indeed Koran has many more scientific facts that still is not discovered by science.
"And please reply to Jason below "
yes sir!
Jun 11 2011: Wikipedia has the following to say about Taqiyya---"The practice of concealing one's beliefs in dangerous circumstances originates in the Qur'an, which deems blameless those who disguise their beliefs in such cases. The practice of taqiyya in difficult circumstances is considered legitimate by Muslims of various sects. Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture"
Now, using the following quote from our exchange: " "Did the Koran make a case for the justification of slavery?"
No, please leave what websites say and leave any prejudice and show your own evidence for that. ", I have to assume that you are using the smoke and mirrors technique in your argument. Does the Koran not give instruction on how to clothe, feed, treat, etc. a slave? Does the Koran not say that slaves may only be taken from conquered enemies of Islam? Does the Koran not say that children of slaves shall be slaves? Explain verse 23:5-6 of Sura and how it clearly legalizes sex with slave girls.
I will not argue the science of the Koran with you because I find the "science" that you use to be extremely flawed. I mentioned before that any book in which slavery is justified can not be the "perfect word of God". No grey area here.
Do not say that one must study the Koran and have it taught to the by Imams before questioning it. If it is a perfect book, the answers to all questions should be easy. I feel the only miracle of the Koran is that so many people believe what it says.
One more question for you... Is it possible that some smart old rich white guys were pulling Mohammed's puppet strings from the beginning? Could these same men have written the Koran using what limited information they had at the time and stealing bits and pieces of other religions in the process? Not asking if they did, just asking if it is possible.-
Jun 12 2011: " "Did the Koran make a case for the justification of slavery?"No, please leave what websites say and leave any prejudice and show your own evidence for that."
I feel that you are practicing Taqiyya in your response to my question. You claim that the Koran did not justify slavery. I feel this is an outright lie. Does the Koran not give instruction on how to clothe, feed, treat, etc. a slave? Does the Koran not say that slaves may only be taken from conquered enemies of Islam? Does the Koran not say that children of slaves shall be slaves? Explain verse 23:5-6 of Sura and how it clearly legalizes sex with slave girls.
Can the "perfect word of God" say that it is okay to own human beings as slaves? I believe the answer is no, therefore I believe the Koran is not the "perfect word of God".
Is it possible that the Koran was written by men and these men used their intelligence and Mohammed's charisma and might to accomplish their goals? The answer has to be that it is possible. The Koran is not perfect. There are many contradictions as you yourself have admitted to one in this very debate. You told Richard to not use the verses he was using to say that the Earth was flat because those verses could be taken to mean that the earth was flat, but others said it wasn't. Even the verses you suggested say to me that the earth is flat. Please read the post that you say was confusing along with this reply before you comment. -
Jun 14 2011: Dear Jason Kather,
please note what is the meaning of slavery in Islam. its far different of what is in your Image. Islam has many rules for slavery. slavery is employment rather than slavery.
in Islam slave is a respected guest helping in works equal to the master working.
please note that Islam does not recognize slavery.
please say what you understand from this:?
I think this single verse is best reply for your question.
in Islam there no difference between humans unless righteous. only and only righteous.
also please note that before Islam slavery had a very strong roots in culture of Arabs and it was impossible to change it immediately. you know when a human is addict to drugs wants to be treated it is step by step. also Islam did so with Arabs. and so it seems Islam justifies slavery. I ask you please have more deep study abut slavery in Islam.
prophet bought many slaves but never sold them and made all free and spend much wealth in this way to became poor. but some themselves loved the moral of prophet and wanted to stay with him to learn from him. many top leaders of Islam were slaves bought by prophet and educated by prophet.
there is lots of facts about slavery and respect to human rights in Islam and Koran but its long. please study about it and do not believe quickly any thing you see in any website.
making a slave free has very high reward in Islam.
actually all rules of Islam about slavery was in benefit of slaves if you study them in the context of Arab tribes in 1400 years ago. rules was for protecting slaves not for justifying. also step by step Islam offers huge rewards for making slaves free and finally most slaves became free.
also please note that Islam is not the evil manner of Arabs. Islam is what is in Koran and sayings of prophet and Imam Ali (PBUH).
also taqiye is only permitted in war situation when a Muslim is treated to say information about his friends. lie is great sin in Islam. -
Jun 14 2011: when speaking about slavery in Koran better to first know the context of Arab socity before Islam and then compare it by after Islam and then honestly saying which is better.
if Islam banned slavery at once 100% Arabs did not accept Islam and killed prophet and not Muslim existed today.
"Is it possible that the Koran was written by men "
please note that he was completely uneducated and did not wrote any thing in all his life and had a donkey and also never claimed Koran is from me. so how it is possible?
"The Koran is not perfect."
prove me one error. not only claim
about Richard and earth please note I said the word مددنا has translated flat in English which is not a good translate. also I showed many other verses sowing earth is not flat.
I did not say you should translate as I say. you yourself can check the meaning of مددنا from diffract souses and then decide honestly.
please say how a flat earth can have two sunset and two sunrise?
and how day covers on night? and night covers on day?
the Arabic text of Koran is important. not translate of Koran.
please consider all verses of Koran about earth then yourself decide Koran says earth is flat or round?
also مددنا is verb and مددناها means we plaind it [earth] (plain as verb. means not full of high/low land) -
Jun 14 2011: SR that verse you have quoted says nothing about slaves.
Explain 23:6 "except from their spouses, that is, to their spouses, and what [slaves] their right hands possess, that is, concubines, for then they are not blameworthy, in having sexual intercourse with them."
33:50 "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what WE HAVE APPOINTED FOR THEM AS TO THEIR WIVES AND THE CAPTIVES WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee..."
Slaves same as employees? Is that why female employee maids are treated so badly in the middle east?
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/033.qmt.html -
Jun 15 2011: "SR that verse you have quoted says nothing about slaves. "
please note.
that verses says all humans are equal. and do you disagree slaves are also humans.
when Koran says the only criteria for value of humans is righteous:
"the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you."
this means slave and master are equal and the only difference is level of righteous.
if it dos not say the word of slave it does not mean is does not speak about slaves.
also when Koran says:
"and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another."
it means the difference of color of people (black and white for example) does not mean that white is higher than black (slave) and the color is only for knowing each other better like the name we choose to know each other.
so you does not agree it is about slavery?
the prophet always said this verse against slavery in Arab society.
apparently it is not about slavery by according to prophet it is about discrimination and specially slavery.
do you agree it is against slavery?
"Explain 23:6 "
this says mans should have sex only with their wives or or those their right hands possess.
please quickly doe not attack Koran for this.
please know the concept of slave (those their right hands possess) in Koran is far diffrent of the Image of slave in your mind.
as I said before slavery culture had very strong root in Arab culture before Islam and it was impossible to Islam ban it at once. so Islam flighted it step by step. and Islam legitimized slavery but made hard rules for rights of slaves with punishment for not respecting slaves. in Islam a slave and a rich businessman are equal in human rights and social rights unless slave is like an employee with many rights. also Islam made many many rewards for making slaves free. Islam did not ban it at once. but restricted it very much and protected slaves. -
Jun 15 2011: "or
33:50 "O Prophet! "
this is same as past verse.
please notice Islam fought slavery step by step. please consider opinion of Koran about slavery generally and totally and you sill find Islam restricted it step by step and actually protected slaves like employees. then you will have a true Image about slavery in Islam. please do not prejudice by your Image of slavery. to different concept with same name. slavery has many hard rules in Islam that a true Muslim never wants to have slave. although having slave is allowed in Islam but not having it is much better with many rewards and actually slaves in Islam will be made free not hold for working. please consider culture and context of Arab tribes at the time that such verses were revelated to prophet.
"Slaves same as employees? Is that why female employee maids are treated so badly in the middle east?"
I asked you many times please do not mix the evil behavior of Muslims with Islam. also not all middle east are Muslim.
so what is the relation of " female employee maids are treated so badly" to Koran?
please show the relation.
Koran disagree "female employee maids are treated so badly"
I do not understand what you mean by copying a link .
please write your argument here clear with related verses. -
Jun 15 2011: SR This is the verse:
"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."
@SR "that verses says all humans are equal. and do you disagree slaves are also humans."
1. That verse does NOT say all humans are equal. In fact it says ALL HUMANS ARE UNEQUAL. Some "more noble" than others
2. I agree slaves are also humans but where in the Quran does it say slaves should be treated as equals to non slaves?
As for 23:6 the meaning is clear and confirmed in 33:50 you can have sex with captured women.
Jun 15 2011: "Dear Jason Kather,
please note what is the meaning of slavery in Islam. its far different of what is in your Image. Islam has many rules for slavery. slavery is employment rather than slavery."
No S.R., Slavery is the ownership of one human being by another. People are not to be bought and sold like cattle. People are not to be sex slaves for their masters. Ignoring all other rights that the Koran gives masters over slaves, those two points are enough to make me sick and anyone who is not sickened by the thought of that is more of a beast than a man.
"prophet bought many slaves but never sold them and made all free"
No S.R., while it is true that Mohammed bought more than he sold, I have read the translations of many Islamic Scholars stating that he sold slaves as well. This is another case of you not being honest.
" Islam is what is in Koran and sayings of prophet and Imam Ali (PBUH)."
Do you really want to bring the sayings of the prophet into this? I have been trying to be respectful to Islam and leave that out of the conversation. Mohammed's teachings will do nothing but incite anger in this debate. I have just been using the Koran in my arguments.
"also taqiye is only permitted in war situation when a Muslim is treated to say information about his friends."
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."--Many more quotes from the Koran than that about being at war with anyone who does not follow Islam. Taqiyya is a common occurrence. -
Jun 15 2011: "making a slave free has very high reward in Islam."
Yes S.R., but it is also used as the only punishment for many crimes. This shows that giving away a slave is viewed as a bad thing as well.
" when speaking about slavery in Koran better to first know the context of Arab socity before Islam and then compare it by after Islam "
No S.R.---I can not ever accept that an all knowing and all loving God would ever accept slavery. If he told mohammed to go to war for every other reason, how could freeing slaves not be a better reason? if God is all powerful , why did he not change the hearts of men to no longer want to own other humans as slaves?
""Is it possible that the Koran was written by men "
please note that he was completely uneducated and did not wrote any thing in all his life"
No S.R.---Not written by Mohammed....Written by educated men and given to Mohammed like i said twice already. Throughout all of history, it is easy to see the rich, powerful, educated men controlling the rest of the population. please read that part of my earlier post again.
""The Koran is not perfect."
prove me one error. not only claim"
How many more times do you need for this to happen? I can pull many instances where mistakes in the Koran have been proven in this conversation. The Earth is NOT FLAT!!!
Jun 10 2011: Dear S.R. Ahmadi,
I have found the passage where it is reported that the Koran predicts embryology to impressive accuracy:
"Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones then (not and) clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! " Qur'an 23:14
First of all, at no point in the formation of a foetus is it comparable to a clot of congealed blood. That is incorrect. Second of all, many muscles (and therefore flesh) are formed before the bone structure is in place (this should actually be obvious if you've ever seen a picture of an embryo) and the rest of the flesh is formed simultaneously with the bone structure. So in no way is that a correct account. This only reflects the belief at the time as it is also reported by certain Greek scholars. Not very compelling I'd say.-
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
"a clot of congealed blood"
can you show more scientific reference that some flesh forms before bone?-
Jun 13 2011: please note that Koran said علقه
and علقه is not exactly clots of congealed blood
if you check Arabic dictionaries they always say علقه is some thing like clots of congealed blood. not the clots of congealed blood itself.
علقه is the name of fetus in ages near 8 weeks.
actually علقه has no English translate.
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
"the sky a protected ceiling"
how you interpret it?-
Jun 10 2011: the ceiling has meanings. for example why said sky is like a sailing? why sailing? sailing protects us. OK? for example atmosphere protect us from harmful waves like cosmos waves and UV.
also "protected" means what? why the air around earth does not go to space and we remain with no air? earth is turning around itself and also going high speed in sky and turning around sun. why the air around air does not spread in space? this not mean that the air around earth is protected?-
Jun 12 2011: Are you honestly going to tell me that you believe that's a compelling argument? Really?
The air around Earth is protected? Wait what? What do you mean by that and how does it fit with our scientific understanding? If the Koran is such a scientific miracle, maybe you can tell me exactly what it is that is so-called protecting the air around the Earth without looking it up.
Jun 13 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
please not there is not air in space. if for example if the door of a space shuttle become open all its air goes out and spread in space.
but the air around earth does not spread in space although earth has a high speed turning around sun.
and the air is always around earth and does not go out from around earth. this maybe seem not important but this is like the water for a fish that the fish does not care about it.
that phenomena happens because the gravity between earth and the molecules of air in atmosphere.
please note scientists until before Torricelli believed air has no weight and so no gravity. because gravity depends on weight (mass).
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
do you know Torricelli?
in past scientists believed that air has no weight until 1643 that Torricelli invented barometer and proved air has weight and pressure according the height in atmosphere.
this means if you go up to sky in the atmosphere the pressure of earth changes according to height but is sensible in very high heights.
please say can this saying of Koran about breath and chest when going up to sky is miracle or not?:
Jun 10 2011: Dear S.R., assuming that was indeed the thought behind this passage, which I have some doubts about, all you need to observe this phenomenon is to climb up somewhere high. Given that the Koran talks a lot about mountains, I'd be surprised if nobody had tried climbing a mountain before the Koran was written. In fact the word "climbing" suggests a mountain doesn't it? You could easily see climbing a mountain as climbing towards the sky, especially in that time.
Jun 11 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
1- Arabia is mostly a desert with few small mountains. as I know Everest is not in Arabia.
2- what is the height needed to feel such fact? 100m? 1000m? 5,000m? such height existed in Arabia? or if prophet had climbed Everest history should have an evidence for it.
3- why people before Torricelli did not understand air pressure? and why they believed air has no weight until Torricelli discovered it? people before Torricelli could not climb?
it is clear before Torricelli people and scientific society did not know it.
if people climbed so much that feel pressure difference Indeed scientists would study it before Torricelli.-
Jun 11 2011: SR let us examine that verse from your source because you say my translations are not correct:
"So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe."
Some things cannot be disputed from this
1. Allah wants to misguide some people.
2. That Allah places defilement upon those who do not believe.
And from other passages those that do not believe and are defiled go to hell. So Allah makes some people go to hell.
3. If the Quran understood air pressure then it was opposite to science. In low pressures, at high altitudes, the chest expands. In fact people who have adapted to heights, like Tibetans and the Andes Plateau have much larger chests than normal.
Jun 12 2011: Dear Richard Dawson,
"1. Allah wants to misguide some people. "
yes. but please note that want of Allah is after want of human. Allah provides equal opportunity to all people by providing /life/time/age/body/food/are/water/air/... equal to all people and most important providing WISDOM and FREE WILL to all human equal. but people using their free will choice different ways. some select way of Allah and some select way of Satan. but helps both equal to go ahead. this is meaning of "Allah wants to misguide some people. " it means Allah SUPPORTS decision of human (by his free will) by providing needs of human until end of life.
this not mean God wants to misguide before want of human.
want of God is after the want of human.
"defilement "
yes God places defilement because they wanted by their free will. they selected so. first they place defilement on their own then God places more defilement on their defilement by SUPPORTING them.this explains more:
first they themselves put defilement on their own heart (sprite) then God only increase it.
"If the Quran understood air pressure then it was opposite to science."
please do not conclude so fast.
"In low pressures, at high altitudes, the chest expands."
why? evidence?
please show a valid reference that chest EXPANDS when going up in sky.
I should study more about meanings of tight (ضيفا). [perhaps it means hard breathing. not that chest be pressed. actually I do not know now.]
In fact people who have adapted to heights, like Tibetans and the Andes Plateau have much larger chests than normal."
it can not be compared by going up in sky. adoption happens in during many generations during hundreds of years not quick (natural selection and Evolution). this adoption is not related to this issue.-
Jun 12 2011: I laughed when I read "I should study more about meanings of tight (ضيفا). [perhaps it means hard breathing. not that chest be pressed. actually I do not know now.]". That's like admitting that you're doing what we already all suspect you're doing, that is changing the meaning of things in the Koran to make them fit science. Remember you're not trying to convince your pairs, you're trying to convince unbelievers. You want to have the most rock solid arguments you can gather.
But that also raises another point. In my challenge I said that you needed to quote "a passage in the Koran which isn't ambiguous." If you need to delve back into the meaning of a word or two to get it exactly right, surely that's a prime case of ambiguity. So I re-issue my challenge and this time look for a passage that is strictly unambiguous (surely if the Koran is a miracle, it shouldn't be too hard to find).
Jun 13 2011: Dear
"I laughed when I read "I should study more about meanings of tight"
I never claimed I know everything about Koran.
I have studied atomic physics (Bcs) and Management (mcs) at university.
I have not religious education.
so I should study some thing before saying you.
also I am learning from you.
"that is changing the meaning of things in the Koran to make them fit science. "
please do not prejudice. why I should do this?
if I wanted to say any meaning other than what is in an English translate you can ask me enough evidence for that meaning and if I could not prove you about meaning of a word please do not accept me.
also why you think you can not find the meaning of an Arabic world. you yourself can check it or you can ask an Arab friend. if it was changing the meaning then you are free to not accept that meaning.
please note that the Arabic text of Koran is criteria. not English translates. English translates are not 100% correct and please accept they have errors in quality of translation. specially about such book (Koran).
if you think I want to change meaning you simply can offer a solution of assign a judge for deciding about that meanings are correct or not.
"a passage in the Koran which isn't ambiguous"
sorry I did not notice this before. also the meaning of ضيغا (tight) can be found easyly and can be ambiguous.
any way what about Rome/Persia super war?
is it a passage in the Koran which isn't ambiguous?
if we want to attack each other for English translate, no result. but we can have a common Arabic dic or an Arab (even non-Muslim but honest and fair) person as Judge.
Jun 10 2011: Dear Matthieu Miossec,
as you said I try to write clear text of Koran:
one miracle:
please read few first verses of chapter Byzantines.
Koran predicted a war from 8 years before.
but the other important scientific claim of Koran is this:
Koran claims the place that roman war happened is lowest point of land. أَدْنَى means: lowest/most near/very close/low value. and الْأَرْضِ means earth/land so أَدْنَى الْأَرْضِ means lowest land.
now Dear Matthieu Miossec please say where is the lowest land of earth?
is the place that famous war happened the lowest point of earth?-
Jun 10 2011: Predicting a victory when you want to win just demonstrates confidence. An exact prediction of the date of victory would have been much more impressive. Let's stick with science, it's much more interesting in terms of possible predictions.
What do you mean by lowest? Closer to the center of the Earth? If it is than the lowest point on Earth is under the Atlantic sea.-
Jun 10 2011: please note that war was in other side of world. and Arabs was not any side of war.
at year 619 world had two main superpower and the war was between Persian emperor and Roman emperor in a place near Journalism. it was a great and famous war like world war and all the world was looking it. and Arabs were out of war and only seeking the news of world war.
at year 619 no Internet or satellite or newspaper and any news about this war took at least near one week to reach Arabia. news was distributed by trading caravans to world. it is recorded in history that one day immediately prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said:
Arabs said him: what are you saying? you are joking? how do you know the news?
after near one week some traders came to Arabia and said:The Byzantines have been defeated.
then people wondered Muhammad has some extraordinary abilities.
also Koran predicted:"But they, after their defeat, will overcome." this happened after 8 years.
"Predicting a victory when you want to win just demonstrates confidence."
Arabs was not in the war. war was between two world power and not important for Arabs which have victory. even if in your scenario then that prediction was correct.
"under the Atlantic sea."
do people war under see?
please say where is the lowest point in the land. not in the sea.
Jun 9 2011: I'm sorry there is nothing which indicates the number
but an other : In Coran, God known as "[And here] what your Lord revealed with the bees: "Take residences in the mountains, the trees, and the trellis-work that [men] make.
Verse 69 : Then eat of any fruit species, and follow the paths of your Lord, made easy for you. Their belly, a liquor leaves, with the varied colors, in which there is a cure for people. There is really there a proof for people who reflect. " Sourat of bees 16, verse 68 and 69.
But it's false, completely.
- the bees do not eat fruits.
- honey does not leave their belly
The muslims will reinterpret their coran for its adapts to new knowledge : concordism.
I repeat myself, the christians made exactly similar.
an other : Sourate II, verse 164 affirms"Certainly in the creation of the skies and the ground, in the alternation of the night and the day, in the ship which sails at sea charged with advantageous things to people, in water that Allah reduces from the sky, by which It returns the life to the once died ground and spreads animals of any species there, in the variation of the winds, and the clouds subjected between the sky and the ground, in all that there are signs, for people which reason. "
- the evolution is a fact and not a theory. If a divinity has creates "animals", they would be bacteria (who would have evolved (and not of the pluricellular animals)
- the Darwinism is also a fact.
- experiments of biochemistry tend to show that the life can emerge without divine force.
Sourate 41 verses 9 to 12:
the sourate says that the ground was created before the sky. False -
Jun 9 2011: 9 - The Land-Sea Ratio
The word sea (bahr) is used 32 times in the Quran. The word bahr is used both for the sea and other waters like lakes and rivers. The word land (berr, yabas) is used 13 times. If we calculate the ratio of 32 to 45 the result is 71.111%.
You may look up in any encyclopedia in the world and see that the lands cover 29% of the earth whereas the seas cover 71% of it. It is really an interesting miracle that scientific and the Quranic ratios of the lands to the seas are exactly the same. This knowledge which was not available in Muhammad's time is coded in the Quran with concordance of words. People who will outgrow their stubbornness will see that this is an easy to understand and impossible to imitate miracle.
The Word Number of occurrence The Ratio
Sea 32 32/45=71.111
Land 13 13/45=28.888
The ratio of seas to earth %71
The ratio of lands to earth %29 -
Jun 9 2011: 39 - Sun and A Light
The most important source of light (nur) that comes to our world is the sun. Even the light (nur) from the moon is sun's light because moon only reflects the sun's light. Our sun is the source of light and heat. The relation between the words "sun" (shems) and "a light" (nur) is clear and these two words are used 33 times each. The singular form of light, "a light" is mentioned 33 times. Our sun is just one of the many light sources in the universe, but it is the most important one for us. The word "light" mentioned 33 times in the Quran is used equally 33 times with the word "sun" which itself is light. Below are two examples:
37- Among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun, and the moon.
41. Elucidated, 37
15- …To you has come a light and a clear book.
5. The Feast, 15
The word Number of occurrence
Sun 33
A light 33
http://www.quranmiracles.com/mmwh/mmlhread.asp?id=39 -
Jun 9 2011: 48 - Adam and Jesus
The 59th verse of the sura The Family of Imran, points to a similarity between Adam and Jesus. There is no other comparison like that between any other two prophets in the Quran. How many times are these prophets' names used in the Quran? In equal number, exactly 25 time each. The verse that points to the similarity between Jesus and Adam is given below:
59- For God the likeness of Jesus is as that of Adam whom he created out of dust, then said to him "Be", and he was.
3. The Family of Imran, 59
The word Number of occurrence
Adam 25
Jesus 25
Some people declare Jesus incarnation of God as he was created without a father in total disregard of the omnipotence of God. God gives Adam as an example, since he was created both without father and mother. By doing so, God shows how illogical it is to attribute to Jesus divine qualifications. God, while referring to the similarity between Adam and Jesus, also supports this statement with numerical miracles using both names 25 times each in the Quran.