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da birday girl
posted on: 11.22.2010
{in st. augustine, anna maria, pensacola, & new orleans}
10 fun facts about kendall:
#1: has perfect hair and skin. i swear she's never had a blemish or a split end.
#2: in loooove with MJ! ( She likes guys with initial names too! )
#3: we met on the second day of classes in college - in Ms Keys class. POW lover.
#4: doesn't believe eli whitney invented the cotton gin.
#5: a whale lover
#6: dying to go to Iceland
#7: LOVES Michigan!!!
#8: former London resident
#9: she's an art history buff with a masters from Sotheby's- braniac
#10: An Excellent friend, girlfriend, daughter, and sister!!
Go check out her Blog CWFHL, and wish her a Happy Birthday! doooo it.
wish i could be in D.C. to give you hugs and bake cupcakes.
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Spokesman Sam Clemens says bogus 20-dollar bills were reported at the V-I-P Casino on South Cliff Avenue, where they reported two such bills, a Shop N Cart on East 12th Street, Taylor's Pantry on South Minnesota Avenue and Casey's on East 10th Street, where they also had two counterfeit 20s
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How to Prepare for Hell – A "Just in Case" Letter to My Unbelieving Friends
by C Michael PattonOctober 6th, 2011 53 Comments
Dear friends,
This is written to those of you who I know and are without Christ. By that I mean you have never fallen on your face before Christ and asked for forgiveness. Many of you are friends—close friends—whom I have talked to about Christ, but you are unconvinced. I would love to be able to push a button, write a check, or perform a task that would make you believe as I do. However, the stark reality that I have to deal with is that many of you whom I love very dearly will die in this state. And, according to my deep convictions, you will not be in the presence of the Lord but in a place of terrible judgement.
Now, I know what you are thinking. Don't quit reading though. Hear me out. I am not necessarily trying to evangelize you or make you love Jesus. I am trying to tell you how to prepare for hell. Just give me some slack here. Though what I am offering to you is still as far from heaven as the east is from the west, it may do some good. Though you do not believe in heaven or hell, you have to admit: you could be wrong. Yes, I admit, I could be wrong too. But if I am wrong, what awaits me? Eternal darkness? Nothingness? Fine and good. However, if you are wrong, something terrible is coming. I can't prepare for nothingness. You can prepare for Hell. This is a "just in case you are wrong" letter.
You see, I believe that when we die, we will all present ourselves to God. Let's put it this way for illustrative purposes. When life as we know it comes to a close, there will be two lines in heaven and two sets of book. One line will stand before Christ, one line will stand behind him. Christ will have two books: one which has the name of those who stand behind him written in it called "the Book of Life". The other book is for those who stand in front of him called "the Book of Judgement". In this book of judgement is written all the wrong things that those who have not trusted in him have done. Every selfish act, every sexual sin, every cutting word, and every time you failed to love your children. In short, every sin that you have ever left your fingerprint on will be represented. Your disbelief in God will find a prominent place as it is the reason the ink will have dried on the pages of this book.
If I am right, I will be in a line behind the judge, Jesus. I will have eraser residue all over me. You see, my name used to be written in the same book of judgement. My issues were just as bad as yours (if not much worse). I had many pages reserved in that book. However, there is an invitation given to everyone in the line of judgement. It says that God loves us and does not desire that we should stand in this line and be judged. It says that Christ took the judgement upon himself for all those who will accept it. It says that who ever wants to leave this line and stand behind Christ can do so. I got in the line behind Christ many years ago. Because of this, Christ took a blood stained eraser, turned to my pages in the book of judgement, and erased it all. He then wrote my name in the book of life with permanent ink. Look at me. I have more eraser pieces on me than anyone. But the point is, because of what Christ did and because I trusted in him, my sins are no longer in that book. Because you failed to believe that Christ is God's eternal Son who died on a wooden cross for your sins, your sin remains in that terrible book. I elected to have Christ take my penalty; you elected to stay in the line of judgement and stand on your own. I elected to have Christ be judged in my place; you have said, "If it is true, I will make my case before the Lord and stand on my own." Therefore, we are in different lines. While these lines become permanent upon death (i.e. the Bible does not present an after death chance to change lines), in some sense, we are in these lines right now.
However, since you are determined to remain in the line of judgement (which breaks the Lord's heart and mine), I am trying to think of what I can do for you. I am scrambling here with tears in my eyes as your future is so bleak. Of course, if you reject Christ, there is nothing you can do to avoid the ultimate fate that awaits you: eternity away from God's love, eternity in torment, eternity in hell. Hell is your decision; it is not the decision of God who loves you. However, I do believe that while hell will be unimaginably terrible for everyone, it will be less unimaginably terrible for some than for others.
In the Bible, Christ says as much. Comparing hell to being whipped, he said that some will receive "many lashes" and some will receive "few" (Luke 12:47-48). Hell will always be eternal. Hell will always be outside of the grace and love of God. But for some it will be worse than for others. I would that you would just trust in the God who loves you and sent his Son to erase your part in the book. I would that your name was written in the "Book of Life" not the "Book of Death and Judgement", but, again, I have to deal with the reality that you may never change your heart toward God.
For this reason, I want to give you some advice about how to make, what I believe to be, your terrible future, less terrible. Here is how to prepare for Hell:
1. First and foremost, whenever the Bible is being taught, run.
I know that this sounds kind of odd (especially coming from me), but it is true. If you are determined to remain an unbeliever until death, don't go to church where the Bible is taught, don't listen to the Bible on your iPod, don't even pick up a Bible and thumb through it. Stay far away from that book.
Let me illustrate. The other day, I yelled from the living room to my daughter Katelynn to get to bed. Fifteen minutes later, she was still up. I became upset with her. I thought it was a deliberate act of disobedience. However, when I talked to her about it, she said that she did not hear me. Once I believed her, my anger went away. Why? Because she did not actually know that I told her to go to bed. Now, she was still in a little bit of trouble because she already knew what her bedtime was. But her trouble would have been more severe had she not only known what her bedtime was but heard what I said and still disobeyed. The point is the more you hear what I believe to be God's word and disobey, the greater the offense.
Listen to what Christ says about this:
Luke 12:48
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
2. Don't try to persuade others, especially children, of your unbelief
Christ said some terrifying word to those who are evangelists of unbelief:
Mark 9:42
"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea."
3. Whatever causes you to sin, get rid of it
I think that this one will be the hardest of the three so far, but if you can do it, it is sound advice. If your television causes you to neglect your family, get rid of it. If your iPad is distracting you from productivity, throw it away. And (and this is going to sound crazy), if your eyes are causing you to lust (i.e. pornography?), cut them out. It is that serious.
Mark 9:43-48
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where " 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
This does not mean that if you do these things, your deeds will cover all the other things written in that book, but it does mean that you will have fewer pages in that book than you would otherwise.
4. Take care of your family
Don't neglect to work hard and provide for them. Whether it is your parents, wife, husband, or children, take care of them with all your might. Love them dearly. Let me get real practical here. Some of you men are divorced and are failing to pay for the support of your wife and children. Don't do that. Some of you have parents who are elderly and you are more concerned about the advancement of your career than caring for them. These type of things are written in bold in the book of judgement.
Listen to what Paul tells Timothy:
1Tim. 5:8
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
5. Don't give yourself too much credit
If you were in the same line as me, I would simply say "Give credit to God for every good thing". But I cannot say that to you since you do not follow or believe in God. However (and I am doing the best I can here), you have to do whatever you can to remain humble. Pride will create a full chapter in most people's section in the book of judgement. It causes your heart to be darkened in so many ways and leads to the sins of vanity, selfishness, and the devaluing of others. Even in your worldview without God, you can understand that you are not essentially better than anyone else can't you? If you are an atheist, you are the way you are due to fate, not your own ingenuity or efforts. I would that you would give credit to God for all things, but I will have to settle for second—a far distant second—best: just don't pat yourself on your back too much.
Paul sees the wrath of God as centered on people's lack of thanksgiving to him.
Rom. 1:21
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Again, you cannot thank God, but you can keep from thanking yourself.
I have more to say . . . much more. But I fear that you may become overwhelmed. I may write more someday.
However, although I said that this was not written primarily to evangelize you, I must pass this invitation from God over to you once again. You do not have to stay in that line. As long as you are still breathing, you can join me over here behind Christ. You don't have to pay anything, give anything, or do anything to join me. Just have to turn to Christ and ask him to erase your pages in that book. God is beckoning you to come.
Listen to this from John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
One more thing. The line illustration is not really original with me. John uses a similar theme in a book in the Bible called "Revelation":
Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
I would that your name was written in the book of life.
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53 Comments
Like or Dislike: 0
Heavy stuff. Interesting post that makes me think about my own non-believing friends and their fate. Thanks for the post!
On a side note: I would fix the grammatical problem in the title.
Like or Dislike: 0
This is really quite fascinating. I don't think I've ever read anything quite like it. Sort of an alternative to Pascal's wager. And I more or less agree with the basic approach: If you're interested in hedging your bets (since you can't make yourself believe), at least try to be good and not do anything that might make God angry at the judgment.
My question is this: What do you think will happen to your unbelieving friends if they heed your advice? Do you think their punishment in hell will be less severe?
I would reserve one major disagreement. I don't think anyone would be determined to stay in the line of judgment. Who in their right mind wouldn't receive God's mercy if it was offered to them? Isn't the whole idea that by the time you get to the afterlife, it's too late to make that choice?
Like or Dislike: 0
This is great. Can I steal it and adapt it for my own personal (non-public) use?
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Mike ,
Not to be picky but can you change the error in the link as well
As usual great post sharing it with all my friends
Like or Dislike: 0
Great article Micaheal, and I agree with you. Could one not take Luke 12 (47-48) verses as one who is already saved. Are all persons servants, do all call the Lord , Master. Just pondering, the problem of course is that if this is refering to believers that it would appear we are in for a bit of discipling as well for what we didn't do…. a missed crown would be one thing, a beating quite the other. Thanks for sharing
Like or Dislike: 0
A few remarks on some misunderstandings that are holdovers from the Medieval Church:
(1) The expressions "aionios punishment" and "aionios life" found in Mt 25:46 do not refer to either eternal punishment or to eternal life as is commonly understood but to punishment in the world to come and life in the world to come respectively.
(2) No one goes to either the kingdom of heaven or to the lake of fire until after the Lord Jesus comes and sits on his throne (Mt 25:31-35, 41).
(3) The NT teaches a form of universalism (Acts 24:15; Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:22; 1 Tim 4:10; 1 Jn 2:2).
At some point, evangelicals will need to learn how to share the wonderful news of the Lord Jesus without trying to scare people into the kingdom with the [false] doctrine of eternal punishment.
Like or Dislike: 0
C Michael Patton, how would you respond to a similar letter, addressed to you, from a Hindu ot Taoist?
The letter would warn of the danger of reincarnation as a worm. The letter would also say:
The more you hear of the Vedas, the greater the punishment for your disobedience
Don't try to persuade others, especially children, of your Christianity
Adhere to the Dharma. Remove obstacles to following your Dharma.
Take care of your family
Fulfill the duties of your caste/class and gender.
(the letter would contain many Vedic quotes that you give no credence to)
How would you respond to this letter?
Like or Dislike: 0
What a horrible thing to have to believe.
Like or Dislike: 0
Yes, the admonishment above still applies, regardless of how we come down on the length of time people will spend in the place of punishment.
But with respect to our Lord, I don't think he was trying to scare people into the kingdom but was earnestly warning them about the consequences of sin in the place of punishment. On the other hand, American evangelicalism is less interested in what this teaching says about sin than how the natural anxieties it provokes can be used to win converts.
Like or Dislike: 0
I am not sure that it is a scare tactic at all; rather an outpouring of God's love saying how much He does not want that for His children. From the sounds of it, you already carry a preconceived generalization about all American evangelicalism. As an American wanting others to experience the love of Christ, I can say that not all of us (though admittedly maybe 10% of the Christians I know) are using scare tactics in trying to introduce people to Christ.
Unfortunately, it does seem that the media portrays it that way. Sensationalism at its best.
Like or Dislike: 0
Thanks for this post. It shows me your heart. The stark reality of hell reminds me that the truth about Christ is not just a "take it or leave it" option. I hope I can be a better Christian– one whose life leads people towards Christ and away from this terrible judgment.
Just one thing– judgment has no "e" after the "g" (judgment, not judgement). Not to judge you for bad spelling or anything.
Like or Dislike: 1
C Michael Patton sais: "Boz, you point is well taken."
I'm not attempting to make a point with a rhetorical question – it is a real question that I am asking you to answer.
How would you respond to a similar letter, addressed to you, from a Hindu ot Taoist?
Like or Dislike: 0
A very heartfelt post. I do have to make the same query as an earlier poster though. The one about fewer and more lashings – I have always assumed that this was about believers, because he is talking to the disciples is he not? He's talking about people who are following him. So to my mind this can't be talking about people who are going to spend eternity in hell. This is only my interpretation of it – I would like to hear exactly how you interpret this verse and why.
Like or Dislike: 0
I grew up within the ranks of American evangelicalism and still worship the Lord within those circles to this day, so I feel comfortable speaking to its strength and weaknesses.
Honestly, it's difficult for me to share the love of Christ without also mentioning the NT doctrine of universalism. I think that people in our time need to know that the God we worship will by no means allow the vast majority of the human family to be permanently separated from him and that his love for us is greater than the punishment that we deserve.
Like or Dislike: 0
"Honestly, it's difficult for me to share the love of Christ without also mentioning the NT doctrine of universalism. I think that people in our time need to know that the God we worship will by no means allow the vast majority of the human family to be permanently separated from him and that his love for us is greater than the punishment that we deserve."
Certainly it is true that God's love for us is greater than the punishment we deserve! Yet this love for us is always mediated through Jesus Christ alone, as He Himself declares. Unless one believes in Christ, they will die in their sins (John 8:24). No one comes to the Father, except via Christ the Way (John 14:6). If you have the Son, you have the Father, but if you don't believe in Christ, you make God out to be a liar, for you deny His testimony about His Son (1 John 2:23, 1 John 5:10-12). Eternal life is found in the Son. We know we have the Son, when we believe these things. This in turn causes us to live for Him in this life.
But if universalism is true, there's no need to emphasize these truths and include them in the presentation of the gospel. Moreover, it is not necessary to preach the gospel at all, since everyone is already on their way to God and heaven, whether or not they have the Son. But the Bible was written and the gospel must be preached so that we might know and believe these exclusive, life-saving, life-changing truths. So that we might find the Son, be found in Him, and escape the wrath that comes on those who remain in their sins. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God (John 3:18)."
The truths about Jesus being the exclusive way to eternal life and to the Father, the only way to be given righteous standing before God and forgiven our sins, are clearly stated. "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you (Romans 8:9-11)."
Universalism contradicts this, teaching or implying that one's sins will be forgiven even if one does not know Christ in this life. But God is not obligated to forgive sins and give eternal life to those who reject His Son! Jesus' purpose for coming was to remove our sins (1 John 3:5), but universalism in effect says we can stand before God in our own righteousness (i.e., apart from Christ) and still be accepted. To share the real love of Christ, tell the truth about sin & how Jesus alone takes away sin. Otherwise the "love" of Christ we share is but sentimentality that keeps them in their sins.
Like or Dislike: 0
[...] was reading Michael Patton's recent thought-provoking post, "How to Prepare for Hell- A Just in Case Letter to My Unbelieving Friends" and in the comments section someone wrote that to properly share the love of Christ, they [...]
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The NT doctrine of universalism is compatible with the NT doctrine of the exclusivity of Christ. Let me explain.
Those who are called to belong to Christ in "this world" (i.e. the elect) are the ones who will be saved through the proclamation of the gospel while everyone else who dies without Christ, and without pardon from sin, will have to spend time in the place of punishment that belongs to the "world to come" (i.e. hell) before they too are saved by the Lord Jesus (Rev 20:5).
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What I am saying is not at all ridiculous given what the NT has to say about the election of some alongside the universal extent of the atonement. In fact, it may surprise you to know that the doctrine of endless punishment almost entirely hangs on the slender reed of how orthodoxy has translated a single word (i.e. aionios) whose meaning is ambiguous.
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[...] How to Prepare for Hell – A "Just in Case" Letter to My Unbelieving Friends [...]
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Jesus consistently taught that some will not be saved (e.g., Matthew 7:13-14, 13:30, 49, Matthew 25:32). In Luke 16, Jesus told the parable about the rich man and Lazarus. It is clear that after their deaths these 2 men have distinct, unchangeable destinies, based upon how they lived in their life on earth. There is no implication in the parable that one has opportunity after death to be saved and to alter their destiny.
If one can be saved by being punished for a period of time in hell after death, this would contradict the teaching of Scripture that we are justified before God, not on the basis of our works or sufferings (in this life or the next) but only by resting upon the finished work of Christ. In the Bible, hell is always a place of torment, not of rehabilitation.
Obviously, universalism undermines the exclusivity of the Christian message by teaching that one need not come to Christ in this life, yet they will still be saved. Yet in Scripture, unbelief in Christ brings eternal condemnation. It is not forgiven as being the result of simple ignorance, but condemned as sinful rejection of the only name given under heaven by which men may be saved (Acts 4:12, 1 John 5:11-12). Also, it is not clear that Rev 20:5 lends any support to the claims of universalism since in verse 15 of the same chapter we read, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:15). -
Like or Dislike: 2
What a lovely letter.
This God who is so loving and wants everyone to dwell in love with him, yet still manages to create a place of eternal conscious torment for billions of people, isn't as lovely as what you declare.
Does it ever get tiring to find wonderful excuses for a doctrine that no Christian really wants to be true? A doctrine that many Christians would never want to inflict on other humans, yet somehow think that the sensitive, forgiving consciences they hone through spiritual discipline is leading them astray when they deeply wish the doctrine of hell didn't exist?
Like or Dislike: 0
Jesus, who is Love incarnate, taught that hell is real. He warns us everyone– in love– so that people can avoid going there. The Bible's teaching is revelation — we can't pick and choose which teachings we like and accept, and which we don't and reject. Therefore if we accept as true Scripture's declarations that God is love; that He does not desire the death of the wicked; and that He has provided one way only for us to have eternal life, then we ought also to accept its revelation that for those who reject this one way, hell awaits.
It may be challenging for us to comprehend why hell must be, but I don't see how we can reject it and yet maintain the integrity of our faith in the Bible as a unified, trustworthy revelation.
Like or Dislike: 0
The Bible's teaching is revelation — we can't pick and choose which teachings we like and accept, and which we don't and reject.
No, it's not and Yes you can. Everyone picks and chooses all the time.
It may be challenging for us to comprehend why hell must be, but I don't see how we can reject it and yet maintain the integrity of our faith in the Bible as a unified, trustworthy revelation.
That's just it. Your faith is in the Bible, not a God of love, or Love Incarnate. Your faith is in a collection of 66 books which are not unified in the way that you think they are.
The Old Testament has not a single whiff of hell to. Lots of texts of terror, but no eternal conscious torment. Quite a significant thing to leave out of 39 books of important "revelation", don't you think? EVen the New Testament is sparse on details about "hell". Only Revelation, hardly a literal book, and the parable of Lazarus the poor man in Luke portray an eternal conscious torment.
That's not much on which to hang a theology of eternal torture for billions of people.
Like or Dislike: 0
"Without conseding that the all of the above is "horrible" I do understand your reaction.
But do you think a subjective perception of horribility has a determinitive vote in truth?"I agree, the 'horribility' of a concept has no vote on its truth – so, unfortunately, I should give hope that the accumulated dishes in my sink will vanish. Only the evidence gets a vote, not wishful thinking.
I just hate to think of my Mum having to believe this about me. -
Like or Dislike: 0
Hi Lynn,
If the Bible is not revelation, why should anyone believe or submit to it? I suppose some choose to believe one part of the Bible is true or accurate, while another part isn't. I think such an approach to the Bible is presumptuous and a bit dishonest. How does one know that the parts they choose to believe are valid and the parts they reject are not? I think these days many want to receive God's blessings, yet want to deny God's standard of living a holy life in submission to Him. No one can achieve this standard – but Jesus did — in His life and death. Through faith in Him alone we attain to the righteousness that is necessary to please God.
I believe God was more than able to superintend the writing of the Bible so that we have in it a document that has authority because it is from Him. This is what the Bible claims for itself. If the Bible is of human origin, it is no more more authoritative than any other human book and as such I think would be of very limited value.
What we know about Jesus and about God's love is mainly from the Bible. Can one say that the love of Jesus is what one most admires and believes in, yet deny that He is the One who informs us most often about hell?
The New Testament provides plenty of information about hell. Enough to show us that it is a real place that is the destiny of some; that it is a place of punishment and eternal separation from God, that it is for those who join the Devil in rejecting God's rule over them and His way of escape.
Again, most of this information comes from Jesus Himself.
Like or Dislike: 0
On my understanding of the NT, Christ's work of atonement is applied to the elect in "this world" while everyone else spends a finite amount of time in the place of punishment in the "world to come" before Christ's work of atonement is applied to them as well. The upshot is that the salvation of all is accomplished by the same atoning work of Christ (albeit not under the same set of circumstances) so that the exclusivity of Christ is affirmed.
Secondly, I would remind you that all that can be concluded from the story of the rich man and Lazarus that is also relevant to our discussion is that those in torment aren't capable of leaving the place of their torment, which is perfectly compatible with my own understanding. In particular, the story does not contravene the possibility of God removing people from the place of torment.
Thirdly, while it is true that the NT clearly teaches that there will be "punishment αιωνιον" for those who do not express faith in Christ in "this world," it is a matter of dispute as to what αιωνιον actually means. The traditional understanding of this word simply assumed that the adjective αιωνιον always modified nouns in a temporal sense and never in a spatial sense; however, that is a demonstrably dubious assumption as the noun αιωνος can carry both a temporal sense (e.g. compare Heb 9:26 with Heb 1:2) and a spatial sense (e.g. compare Heb 6:5 with Heb 2:5) in the NT. In short, contrary to the longstanding tradition reflected in our English Bibles, it's not obvious as to whether "αιωνιον punishment" refers to either "eternal punishment" (on a temporal understanding) or "punishment in the age [to come]" (on a spatial understanding).
Unfortunately, I have neither the space in this comment nor the energy to conclusively demonstrate for you that the NT does indeed teach a form of universalism. It would just take too long for me to carefully walk you through the steps of the argument as it is primarily eschatological in character and such arguments are difficult to make as the basic eschatological categories of the NT are [still!] not well understood; nevertheless, you have my assurance that such an argument does exist and that universalism will eventually become dominant amongst orthodox Christians for this reason (provided our world doesn't come to an end anytime soon). In fact, I'll go so far as to say that once the great and good of orthodoxy finally figure out that the NT does teach a form of universalism they'll feel embarrassed for having missed it all along (Acts 24:15; Rom 5:18; 1 Cor 15:22; 1 Tim 4:10; 1 Jn 2:2).
Like or Dislike: 0
In the spirit of lynn's complaint, we should carefully scrutinize any doctrine that runs contrary to that basic moral sense given to us by God. The old strategy of dealing with such difficulties by appealing to pietistic sentiments won't work in the 21st century, we need fresh answers to questions that previous generations were content to ignore.
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If you want to go the route of progressive revelation then whats to stop the progressive revelation that hell as a place of eternal conscious torment doesn't exist? Oh, I know. Progressive revelation is a good explanation until it starts to undermine your own position.
When you propose progressive revelation and want to claim that all the prophets and Moses and David and Adam didn't know as much as we do today, you are being patently unfair to the Old Testament characters and authors. Never mind the fact that this is not a small issue about animal sacrifice, or whether certain foods are kosher, which BTW, the New Testament spends way more time addressing in its theological implications than it does about hell.
Think about it. Paul goes on and on about legalism and eating and rituals yet never addresses the concept of hell as a place of conscious eternal torment.
Again, most of this information comes from Jesus Himself.This is simply not true. I know that preachers like to claim that Jesus talked more about hell than anyone else, but that is only because nobody else talked about it. He wins by default. Jesus had one main teaching about hell, and that is when he says people should pluck out their eyes rather and enter life blind rather than enter hell with both of them.
The word translated as hell is referring to Gehenna which was a burning trash heap and a place of death and destruction. It doesn't have the same connotation as "hell" does to our modern minds.
Jesus did talk about judgement frequently, but that judgment is frequently tied to something more like annihilation than eternal torment.
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I said most of the information we have on hell in the New Testament comes from Jesus Himself– you affirm that Jesus talks about hell often and more than anyone else. Yet, you write that my statement is "simply not true." Huh?
You also claim the punishment in connection with judgment Jesus speaks of is annihilation, yet when Jesus refers to hell, He consistently uses words that imply conscious, eternal punishment, not annihilation.
NW, you wrote, "In the spirit of lynn's complaint, we should carefully scrutinize any doctrine that runs contrary to that basic moral sense given to us by God."
Why should I trust the "basic moral sense given by God" to guide me concerning the nature of sin and how sin should properly and justly be dealt with, if I acknowledge that I am a fallen sinner whose moral sense is woefully fallen. I know better than God how He should deal with sin?
I am aware that there exists a universalist argument such as the one you're advancing that claims Jesus and the NT support the idea that after death those who reject Christ in this life may still be reconciled to Him in death. However as one reads the NT and the words of Jesus we find radical calls to repent from sin now, so as to avoid perishing in the future. In these calls to repent there is a sense of urgency that implies the time to repent is now, while you are living, not later, when you are dead. As far as the verses you mentioned, all have been answered by many in the past and can be shown not to support universalism. For example, 1 Cor 15:22 is not saying all people indiscriminately will be made alive, but only all who are "in Christ" will be made alive. And not all will be in Christ, for Scripture is clear that not all are saved and some will in fact be damned (e.g., Rom 9:23). Jesus said of Judas, for example, that it would have been better for him had he not been born (Matt 26:24), and said that Judas, unlike the other disciples, whom Jesus guarded, was lost (John 17:12). If Judas was only later to be found again, it would not make sense for Jesus to make these statements, which declare a terrible, seemingly unchangeable fate for Judas. It would be alright for Judas if later in death he could repent of his sin and be reconciled to Christ, but if this was true, then Jesus would not have said "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
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NOTE: In my comment above I meant to refer to Romans 9:22 (not 23) but I couldn't edit it for some reason.
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I didn't suggest that we should blindly trust our moral instincts but that we should at least consider them when we are building our theology from ancient texts that can be difficult to interpret. But concerning this notion that we are "fallen sinner[s] whose moral sense is woefully fallen," I would remind you that according to Scripture our problem is not that we don't have good moral instincts but that we do have them and choose to rebel against them (Rom 1:28-32).
With respect to the aforementioned saying of Jesus concerning Judas, I would emphasize that Jesus did not say that "it would have been better for that man if he had not existed" but said that "it would have been better for that man if he had not been born." To wit, it seems to me that Jesus is here evoking a tradition found in the OT that says to the effect that it is better for someone to die in the womb and be stillborn (i.e. not born alive) than to live a life on earth that is cursed (Job 3:11-19; Eccl 6:3-5; Jer 20:14-18), which is certainly compatible with my own universalism. But in any case, I must say that your strategy of incorporating this saying of Jesus concerning Judas into an argument against universalism strikes me as being rather dubious.
Finally, your suggestion that 1 Cor 15:22 only refers to those who are "in Christ" is demonstrably false as Paul clearly believed in a resurrection for both the just (i.e. those who are "in Christ") and the unjust (Acts 24:15). Rather, I would suggest that Paul envisaged two different resurrections that take place separately, with the resurrection of the just taking place at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23) and the resurrection of the unjust taking place at "the end" (1 Cor 15:24). Moreover, the interpretation of 1 Cor 15:22-24 that has the resurrection of the just taking place when Christ comes to reign and the resurrection of the unjust taking place a long time afterwards is further strengthened by the fact that it finds an independent source of support in Rev 20:4-6.
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It seems that according to your view of universalism, Judas after death will be forgiven his sins and eventually saved, thus getting to spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. Thus the fact that Judas lived a "cursed" life here on earth for a few relatively short years is really inconsequential, in light of the fact that he will be living blessedly forever in heaven with Jesus. If this is really Judas' ultimate destiny, and surely Jesus would have known this, then Jesus' statement, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" makes no sense! But if in fact Judas would have been better off not having lived than to have lived a cursed, sinful life on earth and then also spend eternity in hell being punished for his sin which was not forgiven through Christ, then Jesus' statement makes a lot of sense.
I agree that we have moral instincts given by God which should propel us toward recognizing that God exists and has a rightful claim on our lives. But we recognize the limits of this moral sense when we consider that even our best acts of righteousness are as filthy rags; and none is righteous or seeks for God (Romans 3:11). If then our moral sense is at best severely flawed, we are in no position at all to judge how or what God chooses to do in order to respond with justice to the sin He finds in His creatures.
I agree there is a resurrection for both the just and the unjust, but it's only those resurrected "in Christ" who have their sins forgiven through Him. 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is writing to encourage believers to look forward to the hope of resurrection in Christ, by which they will be victorious over death. If the hope believers have is just as valid for those outside of Christ, then why preach Christ?
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I think we're in rough agreement about the value of our moral instincts so I won't comment any further on the matter.
With respect to the coherency of my interpretation of what Jesus had to say about Judas, my position is that it would surely have been better for Judas to have not been born alive and be stillborn than to have been born alive and incur upon himself the wrath in the place of punishment that was reserved for the one who would betray Jesus even if the ultimate destiny of Judas in both cases was the same (for one case would merit considerable wrath while the other wouldn't).
With respect to 1 Cor 15, I would remind you that the primary impetus for this passage was not to encourage believers with eschatological hope but to set the record straight about the reality of resurrection from the dead, which some in the church at Corinth were denying (1 Cor 15:12, 35).
You said: "I agree there is a resurrection for both the just and the unjust, but it's only those resurrected 'in Christ' who have their sins forgiven through Him."
The plain sense of Rom 5:18 and 1 Jn 2:2 seems to indicate otherwise. I would strongly encourage you to take a second look at these verses and try to imagine how Paul and John could have possibly written them if they didn't believe in some form of universalism.
You said: "If the hope believers have is just as valid for those outside of Christ, then why preach Christ?"
Is our gospel really not a gospel without the prospect of unending torment? Is it not good news that the evils and sufferings of this world are not the end of the human story but that God has prepared a kingdom for his creatures in another world where we will all praise and worship him in glory? And not only this, but the promise of entering this kingdom is for today, for all who put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Friend, all I am seeing here is good news that is worth sharing with a world that is without hope.
I would remind you that the gospel is not that we can escape the fiery flames of the world to come but that God has prepared a kingdom for his creatures in which we will get to meet our creator in glory and that the promise of entering this kingdom is for today. If this isn't a good enough reason to preach Christ I don't know what is.
And besides, it's not as if the place of punishment is any less horrific on this understanding, there's a reason why Jesus encourages us to "strive to enter through the narrow door."
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[...] How to Prepare for Hell – A "Just in Case" Letter to My Unbelieving Friends [...]
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[...] Read on. . . [...]
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This is supposed to convert people?
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"Hello Mike I'm your neighbor about a block down and I've heard that you are some sort of religious teacher who has a high degree of schooling. Do you mind if I borrow some of your time and have a meal at my house? My wife and I have read some of your conjectures and we feel that you what you have learned from your schools might be lacking some content." Mike agrees and a week later they meet.
"Glad you could come by Mike for I feel what I have to say is highly important. I've notice that the conjecture of salvation you teach assumes that it is just by believing that Jesus was crucified it is sufficient to obtain a relief from the penalty of eternal death." Mike says "Yes that's about it in a nut shell because Christ died for our sins."
(The man's wife seeing that Mike' s glass is low of drink pours mike more wine, red wine.) The man continues. "Mike I am very aware of what you think. But isn't it true that a person can and does make himself guilty of the Lord's body and blood at the Lord's table?" Mike replies, "Yes that can happen if there is disorderly conduct." The man says, " Yes, Mike, that is the common conjecture but that is not the point. A person makes himself guilt of both the Lord's body and blood by misunderstanding the term 'Christ died for our sins' then goes ahead and eats that bread and drinks from that cup by failing to discern that the loss of Jesus' life by bloodshed is an accountable sin for each man. For the Lord's table is purposely a snare and a trap for them who participate at this table by having misjudged that "No man can lay a hand on the LORD'S anointed and remain guiltless". Mike you can only obey the Acts 2:38 command by the faith of confessing directly to God that you are truly sorry Jesus' life was lost by bloodshed and be baptized into this Way of faith for the forgiveness of your past sins. For Christ died for our sins to increase them by one and has made an addition to the law so that the sin of crucifying him is accountable for each man.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." There is no other Way possible for a man's name to be written in the Lambs book of Life other than you giving to God the account he demands from you in regard to Jesus' crucifixion as a sin. For with God it is the correct obedience of the law whereby the righteousness of God is imputed. -
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I suggest you read "finding darwins god" by kenneth miller and "why evolution is true" by jerry coyne………..they completely destroy your foundational belief (without you having to resort to allegorizing much of your dark-ages belief system, like everyone had to do when the earth was proved spherical, no exodous evidence, etc.) i've read all of the christian apologists absurdities over the years (i used to believe that crap but got tired of all of the mental gynastics i was having to do to keep my eyes shut to reality) and can tell you that you people are dead wrong………factually wrong. the dna evidence is unassailable; time to revise your belief system already because your bronze age creation account and original sin fable makes you look ignorant. you truly are ignorant if you won't look at the evidence. and thomas paine's "the age of reason" sweepingly destroys much of your biblical doctrine, without resorting to all of the extra-biblical evidence we now have 200 years later; and none of you people can prevail against his sense in that work. your patchwork of jewish myths had me enslaved to terror and blinding-ignorance for so many years, my sole purpose is to destroy that false belief system in as many as i can possibly free from it. everyone read the books i suggested…….completely unbiased information (and kenneth miller is a catholic btw, by mere blind faith…….)
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A very interesting and clearly heartfelt letter, Mr. Patton.
Sadly, it demonstrates a myopic and elitist view of faith.
There are billions (with a B) of life-long devoted worshipers of God. True believers. Many are more certain of their beliefs than you or I.
They are honest, God fearing, family-loving human beings. Hindus. Buddhists. Muslims. Sikhs. Jains. Pious believers.But they are all wrong and are going to hell. And you're right. 'Cause you were born again a few years ago. Right?
You describe a self-focused dicotomy."I am right and everyone else is wrong. I am wise, just and riteous. Everyone else is wicked and doomed."
A Buddhist monk who spent 80 years in constant prayer and meditation is going to hell. Really?
A Seikh priest who spent his life in servitude to God. Doomed?
Ghandi. The greatest symbol of peace, serenity and piety known to modern man.
Yeah, he's burning in Hell. Ok.
I respect the fact that you have a faith that differs from mine, but you HAVE conviction of faith. I do not judge you.
Too bad you can't say the same.
Maybe God is so complex that NONE of us have it exactly right (isn't that possible if not probable)… In which case it's hell for everyone, faith or not, right?
God's blessings on you Brother Patton. I pray that Jesus (PBUH) puts humility and acceptance into your heart.
I hope you find peace from your desire to condemn God's faithful who worship in a way different from your own.
I pray God gives you the strength to focus on YOUR relationship with him. -
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The numbers of adherents does not make a belief true and has nothing to whatever to do with truth. Nor does the level of sincerity or devotion to one's religion make beliefs true. If Jesus is really who He claimed to be (God in the flesh) then His claims are true and have authority over all other truth claims. Mr. Patton, like faithful Christians before, is simply agreeing with what Jesus said.
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Mr Jordan, evangelicals have one, narrow human interpretation of divinely inspired human writing, editted by humans. You agree that anything written editted and interpretted by humans is sure to have flaws, right?
So, like all religions, evangelicals do their best to follow the will of God knowing perfection is impossible.The difference is Evangelicals claim perfect knowledge. Worse, they speak of other belief systems (many far older and more pious) in a condescending paternalistic manner.
(How many parent/child analogies did Mr. Patton use above?)Evangalists are not the only ones with a path to heaven.
Devout Jews, Hindus and Buddhists have been at peace with God for thousands of years, long before anyone became conveniently "born again" halfway through a sin filled life.
But what about Jesus?
There are others who believe in Jesus in a different way.
All devout Muslims love Jesus. Jesus(Isa, PBUH) is an honored prophet in Islam whose teachings are essential for salvation.
Most christians are NOT evangelical.
Millions believe Jesus is their path to salvation. But they don't tell others they are going to hell if their exact interpretation of Jesus isn't followed.
Jesus would NEVER agree with the condescending and presumptuous evangelical philosophy.
Jesus touted compassion, tolerance, unity and understanding.
If we focus on THOSE teachings we'll all live better in this life and the next.
I pray for your health and happiness Brother Jordan.


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Palm Beach and the Treasure Coast Restaurants
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Spoto's Oyster Bar
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If you love oysters and other raw bar nibbles, head here, where black-and-white photographs of oyster fisherman adorn the walls. The polished tables give the eatery a clubby look. Spoto's serves up a delightful bowl of New England clam chowder and a truly impressive variety of oysters and clams. The Caesar salad with crispy croutons and anchovies never disappoints. Sit outside on the patio to take advantage of the area's perfect weather.
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We stayed here for 3 nights on a girlie break, hotel is very clean and accommodating, staff are very friendly and very keen to help. The rooms although a bit dated and clean and comfortable. The only fault we had was that the bedroom area was a bit dark when trying to do make-up, so all 3 had to use... More
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Test your balancing skills in this timed gravity defying puzzler where your job is to safely transport a load of rocks from one destination to another, be speedy and be careful. The road is dangerous.
Use your arrow pad to maneuver and balance the dump truck, space bar to stop and Z/X to dump your load.


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I was raised in the Netherlands, did my national service there and then moved to Edinburgh to take a degree at the University. I liked Edinburgh so much that I decided to stay on and started initially working for a Scottish company where I worked for 15 years. After that I started my own business. I lived in Edinburgh until 1992 when I moved to live in the heart of Midlothian.
I believe I will bring an international perspective to the council. During my career I have got to know a great number of people both in the UK and all around the rest of the world. I will use my experience and expertise in the world of finance to support the Council officials and help to put Midlothian on a sound footing.
While I was brought up in the Netherlands, I have been a resident in Scotland since 1966, and I have become a converted Scot, and as you know nothing is more rabid than the convert. I am a very passionate Scot who loves Scotland for which I have an enormous affinity.
I am very proud to call Midlothian my home.


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9 Tasty Vegan Products Made in Canada
These flavor-packed Canadian foods tell the tale of a Great White North that has much more to offer beyond poutine and hockey.
Oh, Canada: where Mounties chase down criminals on horseback, residents only leave their igloos to go out for poutine, and patriots end every second sentence with an inquiring "eh?" As VegNews' token Canuck, I can attest that while all of the above is true (did I mention our great sense of humor?), the land of hockey, plaid shirts, and endless micro-breweries has even more to offer. Not only is Canada the originating nation for game-changing vegan companies now experiencing massive success worldwide (that'd be Daiya, Gardein, and Vega), but "Mini America" also has some of the most unique and flavorful veg products on the market. So, my Yankee friends, get up off your chesterfield, grab your toque, and study up on old episodes of the Rick Mercer Report (I recommend "Talking to Americans"), because after you feast your eyes on this culinary compilation, you'll want to lace up your sneakers and head north.
1. Basic Roots Big Cheese Crackers
The Calgary-based raw superfoods company has subtlety mastered the art of creating raw foods that remind you of your favorite childhood snacks (bannock bread and caribou eggs, my fellow Canucks). The choconut bars boast a cookies 'n' cream flavor and the classic fig bars are big crowd-pleasers, but the retailer gains many a vegan fan with its Big Cheese crackers, reminiscent of the cheddar Goldfish crackers from your pre-vegan days.
2. Holy Crap Cereals
This small line of cereals is a huge Canadian success story—right up there with the invention of the modern zipper. The husband-and-wife duo behind the tasty formulas appeared on a November 2010 show of CBC's Dragons' Den (the Canadian Shark Tank) and generated more than a million dollars in sales the week after it aired. A 2012 follow-up special declared Holy Crap the most successful business ever to come out of the Den (not bad considering they started with only $129). There are currently three varieties: Holy Crap, Skinny B, and Wild Chia.
3. Naam Miso Gravy
This Vancouver hippie restaurant is the city's oldest natural foods eatery, dating back to the days when West 4th Avenue was Rainbow Road and tie-dye touting students and hippies basked in Canada's counter-culture movement. Today, the establishment may be best known for its famous miso gravy. Soon, 100-percent vegan bottles will hit shelves as production switches to a honey-free recipe, but in the meantime, hungry patrons can head directly to the restaurant for the fully vegan version.
4. Organic Lives Coconut Water
The Vancouver-based raw and organic-foods retailer makes hands down the best coconut water in the world, thanks to the company's partnership with farmers growing unpasturized and organic young coconuts in Thailand. The rest of the product line has a fast-growing fan-base, allowing for expansion to Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and reaching Ontario (you know, the center of the universe) and Quebec come September. With treats such as spicy tomato kale chips and Spanish almond croutons rounding out its pantry collection, Americans can find comfort in Organic Lives' plans for an eventual expansion into the US.
5. Silver Hill Breads
Vega formulator and Canadian triathlete Brendan Brazier recently tweeted that Silver Hill's 20 Grain Train bread was among his favorite home-grown products, and it's not hard to see why. The vegan breads are made of 100-percent whole grains, organic ingredients, offer gluten-free options, and are endorsed by Running Room (the Lululemon of running) Founder John Stanton. Light-footed log-drivers can try Mack's Flax for an omega-3 boost.
6. So Nice Beverages
Canada's largest organic soy beverage brand is fully committed to customer health and the environment. Its natural organic soymilk proudly boasts only three ingredients: filtered water, organic whole soybeans, and sodium bicarbonate (aka baking soda). While the regular product line offers strawberry, chocolate, vanilla, and coffee milks, the real treat is the company's festive Noel Nog for the holiday season, perfect after a long day of curling or snowshoeing—you know, Canadian sports.
7. Soya Nova Smoked Tofu
This traditional Japanese farmhouse-style tofu shop (located on Salt Spring Island in British Columbia) has been making certified organic, non-GMO tofu and soy products since 1982. The carefully perfected products range from signature West Coast Smoked Tofu to a garlic and dill flavor, and the company's zesty and spicy Zed-Spread (yes zed, not zee) is made with raw vegetables and fresh garlic.
8. Yoso Soy Spreads
The innovative soy-product retailer has yogurts, yop-like beverages (think thin yogurt smoothie), and spreads available in Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Newfoundland. While the yogurts, beverages, and sour cream are smooth and delicious, the spreads are standouts worthy of a delicate pairing with a Tim Horton's bagel. With flavors including jalapeño, sundried tomato, garlic and onion, and key lime, you can't go wrong.
9. Sweets from the Earth Cheesecakes
Wild blueberry, vanilla bean, and chocolate cheesecakes make this Toronto-based company the perfect model of a "considerate and polite Canadian." The dessert retailer has discovered a way to create the most delicious and accessible desserts such as bars, squares, cookies, cupcakes, muffins, pies, tarts, and previously mentioned cheesecakes, while remaining gluten-, nut-, preservative-, and GMO-free as well as completely vegan and certified kosher. These convenient confections can go anywhere—perhaps to visit a 30-foot tall nickel (a monument to Canada's 5-cent coin).
The next time you come home from a rough curling match ready to kick back with a nice cup of Tim Horton's coffee and pump some Celine Dion tunes, remember that a plethora of hoser-worthy vegan products await you at your nearest veg-friendly store. Next time you Americans visit Timbit territory, make sure to grab some smoked tofu, coconut water, and miso gravy on your way home.
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I have a simple niche website that is sitting dormant, it apparently has decent revenue potential according to my SEO friend. I'd like to hear what you guys think about what this guy has told me. I prefer to talk over PM if possible, so please get in contact with me!
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Oldenough writes:
Air Force ? I don't know of any combat group that thinks the Air Force is even a military branch, usually it's daughters that want to join the Air Force. Had a hell of a time getting mine to join an Army Helicopter Attack Squad instead, but now she is a vetted citizen.
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Besides criminal defense work, the Law Offices of James C. Egan also does civil rights plaintiff's work involving civil rights issues. General discrimination, police misconduct and government discrimination have been a focus. In one case that resulted in a settlement with the City of Seattle, police had wrongfully arrested a few clients for having a party on their property. Although the basis for the police presence had been addressed, those clients were arrested and booked anyway. Criminal charges were dismissed, and a "counter-suit" for damages prevailed and attorney fees and suffering were compensated.
In another recent matter, alleged racial discrimination at a local area medical institution resulted in a six figure settlement for a client. The Law Office of James C. Egan also has a number of pending civil rights cases in which demands are being made for compensation.
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Though the title page says "1818," the book was published posthumously in December of 1817, in a four volume set which included Northanger Abbey. Persuasion was Volumes III and IV, and was given its name by Jane's brother, Henry. Jane had thought to name it "The Elliots." It had an original print run of 1750 books and sold for 24 shillings. Jane willed all royalties from her books to her sister Cassandra and this double book set garnered Cassandra Ł500. |
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Stupid Fellowes
November 18th, 2008 by ChrisGreaves in Uncategorized
Thanks to Jefferson Scher for pointing me to a nifty little utility called Fiddler.
I spotted this video commercial while waiting for a www.cnn.com news video to roll.
I found it very strange that a firm would advertise a powerful shredder using a fellow with a nice throat-tie getting ever closer to the throat of the shredder.
For a little while longer you can download the 650KB video from here.
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Is the state of Israel its own worst enemy?
Some brief thoughts on this morning's breaking story in the Middle East.
By Mehdi Hasan Published 31 May 2010 12:07The late Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban famously remarked that "the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". But it is the Israelis who never miss an opportunity to score own goals, to be their own worst enemy.
Why on earth, during a period of relative quiet in the Middle East "process" (let's be honest: it is not a "peace process"), would the Jewish state send armed Israeli commandos to attack a convoy of ships carrying aid to the blockaded Gaza Strip, and those, too, ships linked to the Turkish government, perhaps Israel's only stalwart ally in the Muslim world? (Sky News is now reporting that Israel has warned its citizens not to travel to Turkey. The end of a beautiful friendship?)
I can imagine pro-Israel lobbyists holding their heads in the hands this morning as they watch the news, wondering how they can spin their way out of this latest atrocity. Claiming, as Israel has done, that its soldiers were attacked with knives and axes will not do. Nor will unleashing the silver-tongued Mark Regev on to the airwaves as the Israelis did this morning on the Today programme, help them either. Regev has been exposed, time and again, as being economical with the truth. (On an amusing side note, if you play "Google predicts" with Regev's name, the only option that comes up in the Google search box is "Mark Regev liar".)
By the way, check out this page on the BBC website. Notice anyone's name missing from the list of international figures reacting to the Israeli attack? Yep, our new Foreign Secretary, William Hague. There seems to be radio silence from the Foreign Office. Meanwhile, according to al-Jazeera, "Turkey, Spain, Greece, Denmark and Sweden have all summoned the Israeli ambassadors in their respective countries to protest against the deadly assault."
As the Tory-supporting columnist Peter Oborne noted in his controversial Dispatches TV documentary on Britain's pro-Israel lobby, the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI) group has a great deal of influence inside the party, and Hague himself has been subjected to pressure from it in the past. So perhaps, as the well-connected Tory blogger Iain Dale pointed out in a recent discussion show on al-Jazeera that he and I participated in, our Foreign Secretary intends to be "much more pro-Israel than his predecessor David Miliband".
Let's see . . .
UPDATE: Here is William Hague's official statement (via the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website):
I deplore the loss of life during the interception of the Gaza Flotilla. Our Embassy is in urgent contact with the Israeli Government. We are asking for more information and urgent access to any UK nationals involved.
We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way, because of the risks involved. But at the same time, there is a clear need for Israel to act with restraint and in line with international obligations. It will be important to establish the facts about this incident, and especially whether enough was done to prevent deaths and injuries.
This news underlines the need to lift the restrictions on access to Gaza, in line with UNSCR 1860. The closure is unacceptable and counterproductive. There can be no better response from the international community to this tragedy than to achieve urgently a durable resolution to the Gaza crisis.
I call on the Government of Israel to open the crossings to allow unfettered access for aid to Gaza, and address the serious concerns about the deterioration in the humanitarian and economic situation and about the effect on a generation of young Palestinians.
I like the line about "the loss of life", as if the people on those ships died in a natural disaster, or from heart attacks, rather than from Israeli gunfire. Notice also that Hague's first criticism is, implicitly, of the people who were killed ("We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way...") Pathetic.
UPDATE 2: The US blogger Glenn Greenwald gives his take on the attack here. He writes:
It hardly seemed possible for Israel -- after its brutal devastation of Gaza and its ongoing blockade -- to engage in more heinous and repugnant crimes. But by attacking a flotilla in international waters carrying humanitarian aid, and slaughtering at least ten people, Israel has managed to do exactly that. If Israel's goal were to provoke as much disgust and contempt for it as possible, it's hard to imagine how it could be doing a better job.
He adds:
The one silver lining from these incidents is that the real face of Israel becomes increasingly revealed and undeniable. Not even the most intense propaganda systems can prettify a lethal military attack on ships carrying civilians and humanitarian aid to people living in some of the most wretched and tragic conditions anywhere in the world. It is crystal clear to anyone who looks what Israel has become, and the only question left is how will the rest of the world -- beginning with their American patrons -- will react.
I wouldn't have used the phrase "silver lining" but, nonetheless, he has a point.
86 comments
Even if this doesn't prove a tipping point for Israel, it is likely to at least hasten the point where that moment comes. Both Apartheid and the occupation of East Timor ended, at least in part, because US support became unsustainable in the face of international condemnation. Clearly the US would support its ally resolutely, and irrespective of any atrocities the latter committed, if there were no political costs attached. But Washington will come under increasing pressure now from other regional allies like Turkey, from the EU, and from international public opinion, to step in and tell Israel that enough is enough.
Israel cares passionately about its public image. This is a grave PR disaster for them, additionally so because it will remind the world once again of their sadistic blockade of Gaza. I can't believe that any of this is sustainable either for Israel or for its patron in Washington.
The question on my mind is regarding this ONE SHIP being targeted and not the others. After having researched a little, it has come to light, that this was the ship that had all the communications equipment, and was the control ship for the others. In other words, it was the 'strategic steer' as they normally refer to it in 'a fleet of ships'.
It has also been said that the other ships were not even boarded. If that is the case, then how much can we believe of what Mr. Regev says, and what he briefs the correspondants of the different media outlets.
You remain silent on atrocities in Sudan, Iran, Syria and numerous other Muslim countries - I notice you made no mention of taliban massacring nearly 90 Ahmadis the other day - but one country can get you to speak out.
You are a typical Islamist hypocrite, Mehdi.
the impunity of the zionists is incredible,it seems no matter how barbaric their actions they don't give a monkeys about international opinion
Its clear from the interviews of those people that have come back/been released, especially the first person from Glasgow, that their ship was never boarded/checked. This means that Regev has been caught out spreading false propaganda and lies once again, He claimed in all his interviews that all the ships were boarded ! Hence, his argument, that ''this was a police-kind of an operation, in which we were just making a safety check'' is totally absurd and a pack of lies.
Secondly, this ship was targeted because it had some very influencial people in it.
A bungled operation, which they never expected to go so bad.
Jim - you're wrong. See my Twitter feed and you will see me mention the massacre of the Ahmadis. I've also criticised, in previous blogposts, the tendency of Muslims to condemn only Israel's atrocities and not those of Muslim states.
Of course, the key point here is that the terrorists in Pakistan do not claim to be a democratic, law-abiding nation-state, nor do they have the support and sponsorship of the west's leading governments, including our own.
Also - are you saying the BBC are "Islamist hypocrites" too, for daring to report this attack as their top story? And CNN too?
Kate - thanks for your comment and good point about the CMEC but please see Peter Oborne's Guardian piece, which I link to above, for further details about the CFI and Hague shifting his views between Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2009.
let's not forget their nuclear arrangement with apartheid south Africa
Good points in this article.
Another sad day, another senseless violent act in the history of this region. Attacking an aid convoy in international waters shows how paranoid and intolerant this country is. And contemptuous of international law and international opinion. (Regev is already doing his best to justify what happened - he's sounding increasingly unconvincing and desperate.) Will this now finally force our governments - including the all-important US government - to act? (I predict that it won't...)
Who would have thought that the Zionists would have turned into the Facists of the Middle East. The Israelis have turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
The sad fact is that Labour has kept quiet all these years and watched a tragedy in the making.
It's the worlds largest military prison as I posted earlier but for some reason it wasn't put on the comment board.
Consecutive Governments since Balfour's day have failed to address the damage that the British Govt wreaked on the people of Palestine and their country. Successive Governments of the West have not acted to enforce UN resolutions of which there are hundreds against Israel.
Our foreign policy is shameful as is our ability to turn our eyes away from some violators of international law yet punish excessively smaller breaches by other countries.
Nothing will change, the usual platitudes will be issued, maybe even a UN resolution or two, but the status quo will remain.
Not content with a weekend of homophobia over David Laws, the Waffen SS branch of the New Statesman pull on their jack boots to spew out a bit of anti semitism, it must be their lucky day, eh ?
Nice work lads, Adolf and Nick Griffin is proud of you.
William Hague needs to spell out clearly an unequivically where he stands in relation to the Palestinian question. The idea that a small group within the Cons. Party can dictate party policy is immoral and undemocratic.
Great comments Medhi.
This action by Israel is a total outrage. But what is worse is the mild reaction of the American and British government who talk of "regrets" and "loss of lives" instead of using words such as "condemn" and "murder" as they would have if any other country had carried out such a murderous act.
After what they did and continue to do to Gaza, nothing will surprise me. It is obvious that they know they have "carte blanche" to do as they please.
I am now hoping that the EU, the UN and some individual countries will find the courage to denounce, condemn and challenge Israel.
It is now clear that the UN must demand the end of the blockade of Gaza and force Israel to obey the countless resolutions against them they have ignored for so long.
Enough is enough. The International community must act decisively to put an end to the bullying of Israel.
Like Medhi says, should we then compare the actions of terrorists to that of Israel? Using your own logic, Israel is then a terrorist state, which is exactly what it is today.
Come on, who will be first to tell me and anyone who dares condemn Israel that we are all anti-semite scumbags?
Once again, my anti-Israeli comment has not been published. Same happened with Sholto's article. Am I being paranoid?
Abdul: Shut up!
There's gremlins in the machine Daniele, I queried mine not appearing.
@ Abdul Amir Hassan
Gosh, Abdul, how did you manage to get that posted? Virtually everything I've ever posted at the bottom of one of Mehdi Hasan's pieces has been pulled.
Matt asks ''Gosh, Abdul, how did you manage to get that posted?''
Im very glad you asked me that Matt, because my comments are genius, pure and simple, thats why they get posted.
I'm unacquainted with Palestinian rap, the author of the song I posted is an Englishman of Iraqi origin.
Also I think they indulge me here on the NS website because I am such a fool and my comments are so mentally unbalanced that no one here really takes them seriously. Do they?
The donut posting at 19.55pm is not me, its probably Nick, its kinda sad, isnt it ?
Meanwhile back on planet Earth.
Medhi squeels in fake indignation, this is a non story bit like '' dog bites man shock ,'' move along, nothing to see.
I am wondering: is there any point posting on this website when "Abdul buffoon in chief" gets 6 postings published in a row and none of the serious comments seem to get through?? what is going on at NS tonight?
This is very disappointing.
I don't know but I've made three other postings that haven't made it. All good points to air for debate, such a shame that the real debaters can't get on and yet the gremlins in the machine are letting diatribe to be dispensed freely.
I'm just off to kill myself.
I can't take these awful people attacking my "friend" David Laws. Boo Hoo.
By the way, does ANYONE think that "Abdul (look-at-me-posing-as-if-I-am-a-Muslim) A. Hassan" is his real name? As a relative newcomer to this site, for me he has runied a perfectly good debate.
What's the point of putting a subject up for discussion? Winges about not getting through make it and drivel from certain quarters but no one with anything of substance on the subject to say can air it.
The response to this convoy was totally disproportionate.
If they were really worried about the ships contents they could have legally requested the ships stop and searched the holds.
No they had to go bananas with gun totting thugs and shooting innocent people.
The answer to the question is yes. The country who cannot be named is it's own worst enemy.
Gaza is basically a big prison and this incident underlines the disgraceful policy that that state currently employs on peaceful activists.
It's because they're bullies and bullies always assume that the weak will yield to their agression.
All praise to the aid flotilla for standing up to them. I understand there's another ship still en route due in tomorrow, let's see what happens to that one.
An ambassador to Ireland said his countryment were the ones under attack and had to defend themselves. Surely it was the people on the aid convoy that were under attack when assaulted from air and sea in international waters?
Hague says restraint should be exercised. Like they're going to listen to him. Could he define exactly what he means by restraint? Where is a statement from Cameron or Clegg on this matter?
The bottom line is that this incident would never have happened to a ship that was armed or under protection from a naval vessel.
Had they tried to board such a vessel they would have been fired on and rightly so.
International waters means just that. The response was disgraceful and they will pay.
Why u always onto nick? It's a bit sad picking mostly on him so why don't u get a life abdul
I don't really see how anyone can defend what happened last night / this morning, so it makes me wonder whether there is more to this story than meets the eye.
As for Hauge casually calling on the country to comply with a UN resolution - which it is in clear violation of, and which we are unlikely to do anything about... doesn't this make a mockery of invading Iraq for failing to comply with a UN resolution, all be it a resolution about imaginary WMDs rather than a very real illegal blockade which has already resulted in a untold number of deaths and left approximately half a million people in poverty.
Abdul Amir Hassan 31 May 2010 at 20:52
This is not me, he's an imposter.
The next time i see someone wielding an iron bar i'll know what ascription to use: peace activist.
M Bloom,
using that logic what would you ascribe a special forces attack on a ship in international waters, which resulted in 10 deaths? crowd control? police action? piracy? or the most henious crime a state can commit - aggression?
From a legal point is this any different to the seizure of ships by Somali pirates off the East African coast?
They shouldnt have boarded the ship, nah.
They should have torpeoded the boat load of shit stirrers.
Shafeeq - A dim-witted white guy adopts an ethnic persona in an attempt to discuss world affairs with his intellectual superiors. His hilariously stereotypical view of the world is often tolerated by those he debates with out of misplaced political correctness. On the occassions where he is challenged, he usually objects that his (fictional) ethnicity is the basis for the attack.
Even though that observation will sound strangely familiar to regular readers of this site, I was actually describing Sacha Baron Cohen's comic creation, Ali G.
Looks like we've all been had. Well done on resurrecting a satirical fictional character from the past decade Abdul. I take it back - you do have a sense of humour after all.
I am Spartacus!
No, I am Spartacus!
Well I'm just a dickhead, wot wiv me bein the real AAH luv mate etc.
@Abdul Amir Hassan
I'm not sure you're welcome here any more. If the NS has any sense you won't be permitted to post again on anything.
Blimey Abdul, you really have got a split peronality!, one minute you're full of honest self admissions; the next you're back to your ol bad self! You gotta see a doctor mate! And stop accusing me of using your 'name' (not that it's yours anyway); I've got better things to do with my time, tis the first time I've looked on this site today, and much to my surprise your still going strong!
I feel the response was disproportionate. The initial assault was contrary to international law.
The activists defence will no doubt be that under international law it was an act of piracy and they had a right to bear arms.
If more aid was allowed in, the blockade lifted then this direct action would stop but the situation within the siege is evermore desperate.
Apart from the aid these convoys/flotillas deliver, the political and world attention it draws to the plight of the besieged is essential. On the whole, they remain a forgotten people, namely by the governments of the world and particularly the West who issue platitudes and piecemeal condemnations but don't attempt to affect any real change towards a peaceful resolution for both sides.
Jeremiah: you may be right. It is the I word which stops the postings.
Shall we call this country "God's chosen people country" and see what happens.
After all that's probably why they get away with murder. They've got a direct connection with the Allmighty.
Seriously, this is frustrating.


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How to merge two brands in six not-so-simple steps
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When companies approach branding firms like Siegel+Gale for guidance on merging two corporate or product brands, the request is typically for us to develop a name, logo, endorsement strategy and story for the new merged entity. In many cases, however, it's not the right move to simply create and launch a new brand identity overnight. The job is not done with the introduction of some new branding elements.
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US D367060 S Reclamaciones(1)
Descripción FIG. 1 is a front elevational view of a video remote control, showing our new design; FIG. 2 is a right side elevational view thereof, the other side being identical; FIG. 3 is a top plan view thereof; FIG. 4 is a top rear perspective view thereof; FIG. 5 is a bottom plan view thereof; and, FIG. 6 is an enlarged right front perspective view thereof. Otras citas
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Lawyers & Law Firms
I suspect because they are multiple charges that the verdict will be split. Bonds will be found not guilty on some of the charges and guilty of at least one charge. The real drama will come down to sentencing. There is precedent for leniency (house arrest) but then again Marion Jones got hard prison time.
Llewellyn Connolly
This is a shameless waste of Taxpayer monies. What is the motivation for the system to even get involved in this. As if it was the police for Big League sports contract issues.
You are arguing what the technical knowledge of steroids are to a person – when Steroids are NOT illegal.
For crying out loud – there are thousands of issues more germane;
Like the story of Edward Ricks – who was beat and ostracized out of Baseball
- because he refused to take ROIDS.
Why Bonds? Why not Mark McGuire? This person even has a job in the Major Leagues!!!! Give me a break. It goes to show how uneven the balance of justice is.
McGuire didn't lie to a grand jury. That happens to be against federal law.
Put this bum away!!!! Im tired of bonds getting off easy!!!
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