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Just a situation and a question for you GM-types out there: Let's say a person is the target of some evil plot and is framed for a murder. You're a paladin, and you know absolutely that the person in question is innocent, but the evidence is so stacked against them that your testimony is not enough to save them from an execution sentence. You also know that the court in question is a fair one and is not corrupt itself.
What, in most people's opinions, is the correct path to follow here, and in other situations where doing the right thing is also doing the wrong thing? How would you not break your code either way? (Before you say anything, I absolutely know GMs who would allow such a scenario!)
When the law is used against the good and innocent, it stops being the law of the people. Even if the evidence is stacked, it isn't real evidence but corrupted evidence. That's enough for me to go in and save this person from getting executed, provided he is found guilty. Of course, I'd hope the GM has a way to find the real evidence and prove to the country that this person is indeed innocent.
That depends on your Paladin code, to some degree. Each one's gonna be a bit different, after all. That said, if it comes down to violating the law, or allowing injustice, you actually have to break them out of jail. A jailbreak (as long as you don't harm any guards permanently) is not an Evil act. Nor is it necesarily disrespectful to a legitimate authority, respectful disagreement is entirely possible after all. You can even leave them a polite note about how you regret the necessity of this, and will turn both him and yourself in, once you've proven his innocence. Allowing an innocent man to die when you have the power to save him? That's an Evil act, and not allowed for Paladins. And a failure to help someone in need, so it actually causes you to fall twice. You allow him to die, and you cease to be a Paladin (until ou do some serious atonement, anyway). So, in short, the Paladin code actually requires you to break the law in this case. Hardly a unique situation, but always one people seem to have trouble with, despite the extremely clear statements throughout the Paladin codes and class writeup in general that, while Paladins must be Lawful, they are first and foremost Good. You don't lose your Paladin powers for Chaotic acts after all, only Evil ones.
Generally if the paladin is convinced (say through first-person observation) that the accused is innocent, they will not allow a misled court to convict. Assuming the trial existed to prove or disprove the guilt of the accused, a guilty verdict is a failure of the law to execute its purpose. It is the paladin's duty to see the law upheld, and an innocent person set free. There's a LOT of room for HOW a paladin does this. They may for instance offer to the court that they will accept the guilty into their care. "I take it upon my own reputation and recognizance that I will govern over the accused and ensure that in the future your town will not need fear their actions." They may insist. They may even use nonlethal force. "I was there. The accusers were not. The accused comes with me and anyone who wishes to make it otherwise is hereby warned that further unlawful interference is unwise." It's up to the player. But no, a paladin isn't forced to uphold a dirty court's rulings.
Neo2151 wrote:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" That includes letting the corrupt and manipulated legal system murder innocents. Sounds like a plot, sounds like some investigation followed by liberal amounts of smiting.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Like the idea about the turning you and them in after you clear them of guilt. A hilarious dm would have you both killed after turning yourselves in, and for this to be entirely legal. Whoops, forgot my legal knowledge.
Neo2151 wrote:
Evidence? Physical evidence should be irrelevant, stop thinking like all fantasy worlds are modern society in other clothes. Prior to the 20th century physical evidence was a distant second to character and witness evaluation. This is one reason why foreigners and vagabonds (which I think adventures often are) are at a disadvantage, no family or colleagues that can stand up and speak on their behalf and try and convince the court that the act is not in the defendant's nature.A Paladin that would take a solemn oath to their god to tell the truth, and then lie under oath would be stripped of their powers; the Paladin knows this, and more importantly the court knows this as well. So a paladin is very powerful in the kind of situations were they speak in a court, as its is only possible to argue that the paladin is wrong and misinformed, never that they speak an untruth knowingly.
Or, more realistically and in keeping with the tenants of Lawful Good, a paladin would exert every lawful means in his disposal to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person was innocent, while using the law to delay the execution. If the paladin in question is a well-respected member of the community, he should be able to request a few days to delay. A law-abiding, just court would listen when the character states he may be able to find evidence exonerating the prisoner. A secretly-manipulated-one would probably still give the time extension, either because they feel they cannot be unraveled, or they need the populace to be shown that the paladin was wrong. After that, we have to make an assumption that the paladin cannot simply "detect lies" the prisoner for whatever reason. We'll claim we're in Cliffport, where magical testimony is not considered valid. We can't time-scry, then, either. But the paladin should have his own contacts. In some feudal settings, a simple "God wants you to tell the truth" to a serf-witness would cause them to break and reveal themselves. Of course, that's not even factoring in what the paladin's companions would be doing. When a anything-but-evil rogue hears the paladin's lament, he's going to start digging as well. And while the paladin cannot condone spying or burglary to get evidence, the rogue can act independently. Generally, this kind of thing should not be a "one-hour game session". It's a serious question of the character's motivations and his take on his own alignment, and therefore should be played out slowly and methodically. There should be small questions of faith and righteousness before this kind of "hard break" moral dilemma, and something everyone at the table is going to enjoy. If your paladin is more interested in the notion of the jailbreak, then they're not really a paladin, they're a fighter that wants a different set of powers. As for the jailbreak... Lawful Good can't think that way, or it will rapidly use the ends to justify the means, and cease being Lawful Good, just Self-Righteous Good.
you know actually alot of the paladin code questions relate back to 2 philosophical theorists with opposed views. its between kant and john Stuart mill.
Also, if the judicial system is based on current judicial systems there are options available. The court is likely, even with all the evidence, to grant a paladin some leeway. If asked the court could be willing to grant an extension on the trial and have more time for investigation. This would allow said paladin and party to find the real killer. Also, a paladin with some key skills, diplomacy/perform oratory and sense motive, could make a very effective defense lawyer for said innocent person.
Neo2151 wrote:
What you're describing is not exactly an unknown trope. The answer is based on the nature of what inspires the game. You do what Heroes do... you find a third way out that respects the law and exonerates your friend. That of course assumes that both you and your GM are actually on a common page as to what game you're playing. If your GM is modeling his campaign on despair and futility, then it's a matter of Lose No Matter Which Choice You Make.
vidmaster wrote:
I disagree. If circumstances matter nothing at all, then you should save him, because saving an innocent is the right thing to do. Whether that's what society approves of or not. Right is right. Or at least that's an equally valid Kantian argument. Kant's philosophy doesn't actually say one way or the other on this one. It just says that the consequences and practical problems don't matter, it's purely a question of what you'd do without said consequences. So if your personal code says 'always obey the law' then that's what you should do, and if your personal code says 'always defend the innocent' that's what you should do. If your personal code contains both? Then you're in trouble, and need to decide which principle is more important.
I think you're presenting a false choice in a high magic fantasy setting. In a Pathfinder setting, false convictions should be at or near zero. Detect Magic / Detect Thoughts / Discern Lies / Zone of Truth: "Did you do it?" "No." Case closed. The only way I can see the evidence being "stacked against him" is if he said "yes" at some point to the above interrogation procedure. If the authorities are worried he might make his will save, just do it 30 times. There's really no need for 'investigation' in Pathfinder, just bounty hunters and priests. I see no reason the Paladin should have to break the law in any case. This is a perfectly good alternative: ShadowcatX wrote: Spend 5,000 gp on diamond dust. Steal the body, raise it, add him to your cohort cadre under your leadership feat.
Hmm... You do have yourself in a tough choice. I would say first thing is to think of what god you worship and how they handle the law. The first example that comes to my mind is if you are a paladin of abadar the god of laws and civilization's progress you would have to let it happen as potentially destabilizing the local law for one man would be seen as a greater evil then the death of one innocent man while if you follow someone like erastil where it's about nature and the protecting of the community especially those that cannot help themselves then you would certainly want to save him before this heinous crime can be committed! But next I would say is to remember that a paladins job is to uphold both the powers of law and the powers of good to the utmost they can achieve, now it is your job as the paladin to decide which is more important at any given time and how helping one will help the other. It is also his duty to respect the authority and ruler ship of whatever government he finds himself in as different cultures have different priorities and therefore the laws and authority he runs into may be perfect for the situation this town/villiage/city may find themselves in. He must also remember that it is easier to fix a problem and having it stick by going through the proper channels then by having outsiders staging a revolution at the end of an axe. Remember a paladin is allowed to break the law from time to time if the situation calls for it but should have tried every viable option he can think of within the system before he decides to fly into decent.
The Paladin does everything he can legally to get it overturned. When that fails, he gets the guy out of jail, being careful not to hurt anyone along the way (unless they are part of the plot to get the guy convicted wrongly). Once the victim is safe (in another country for example), then the Paladin turns himself in for his crimes, and pleads his case. Then he accepts whatever punishment he is given by the (posited fair) courts, and serves his time.
Nine out of ten parts of the Paladin's version of Lawful Good is emphasis on the good. They don't 'detect chaos' and they don't 'smite chaos' and they don't suffer any sort of approbrium (or possible loss of class abilities!) for hanging out with chaotic folk. Mechanically, since the Paladin class was invented, 'lawful' has been a distant afterthought, at best, and there's no reason why your paladin PC has to put more attention into his 'lawful-ness' than the creators of the game did. If the quandary of the day puts the Lawful at odds with the Good, the Good wins every time, IMO.
Neo2151 wrote:
Firstly, I'd remove the emotive and loaded language from the above situation. You say the paladin knows the accused is innocent.
Assuming the accused has a cast-iron alibi, is otherwise incapable of committing the crime, and/or compelling evidence exists that another person was responsible; Has that evidence been put before the court?
Assuming the incontrovertible proof of innocence exists, and has been put to the court; You say the evidence is 'stacked', yet in the next sentence, you say the court is fair and incorruptible.
Assuming the stacked evidence has been sprung by surprise on the 'fair and incorruptible' court;
Assuming the court refuse to allow time to gather evidence for the defence, because they 'have to get this case over with quickly', then they are also not a valid court of law, but a kangaroo court, run by a bloodthirsty lynch mob.
In short, there should never be a situation in which a paladin finds themselves at odds with a fair, impartial court, since such a body would share the paladin's aims of getting to the truth of the matter at all costs. If you are able to give further information about the situation as it occurred in-game, and show that it avoids all the above, then please do so. I would contend that, however the situation appears at first glance, there will not be any dilemma. Any practice a court may have, that would hinder the pursuit of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, would invalidate that court as a recognised legal authority by a paladin.
@Snorter: I got the impression, from the initial post, that the situation was something like this: The Paladin was an eyewitness, inasmuch as he was the target's alibi, and was with him both when the crime was commited, and fom then until his arrest. This is all the accused has going for him. However, there is significant physical evidence that he committed the crime in question, possibly including a number of witnesses seeing him committing the crime with their own eyes. So, he's clearly been framed, and the Paladin says so in the trial loudly, ublically, and under oath. But for whatever reason (Chaotic country, inability to admit he's a Paladin (maybe he's in Rahadoum), whatever) the Paladin's word is simply not considered good enough. Or perhaps the prosecution argues that the Paladin was the one fooled by an illusion of some sort to give the accused a perfect alibi! Or maybe the Paladin is sleeping with the accused, and the prosecution insinuates that even a Paladin might lie to save the life of their lover. Or a dozen other possibilities. In any case, the Paladin's credibility is insufficient for the jury. So, the jury (a perfectly reasonable method of trying a person for a crime, who're good honest folk, and have been given all the available evidence) find the poor man guilty. So. Situation as presented occurs. Go. Situations where, even in a fair court, the innocent are convicted inevitably do occur sometimes.
I plan on playing a paladin soon, and I plan on emphasizing the Good over the Lawful. I also see my Lawfulness being used to promote society, group dynamic, helping others, being organized, etc. Not a rules lawyer dick (pardon my Elvish), tyrannical bureaucrat, social conservative, or law-and-order stick in the mud. So I would err on the Goodness over Lawfulness. Also, you can always put someone back in jail. It's very hard (but not impossible in Pathfinder!!!) to un-execute someone.
Neo2151 wrote:
The problem with this kind of thing is you get to design a scenerio that may not be entirely realistic inthe terms of a game. I know few GMs that would stack the deck so thoroughly against any character, let alone a paladin. Its almost like a logical fallacy, if that makes any sense. See the problem with this What if is the paladin knowing for sure the person is innocent. If he has the evidence and the court is fair and just then he can present that evidence and the person will be free. If that evidence isnt strong enough to get the person off then obviously it wasnt strong enough, for sure, to convince the paladin of the person's innocence.
Neo2151 wrote: What, in most people's opinions, is the correct path to follow here, and in other situations where doing the right thing is also doing the wrong thing? Lawful Good. Not goodly lawful. Law is a descriptor of how he achieves the ends of good. But achieving good is the ultimate and most important of goals. If the JUST application of FAIR laws are circumvented then no true justice can be achieved. In that case the paladin must do what is right to make sure that GOOD is preserverd. An innocent man knowingly sent to prison or death while the Paladin still breaths is not an option. The Paladin will exhaust any and all legal recourses at his disposal to get the victim free. This could take time and the victim could spend some time in prison while it happens, but if the process works and the innocent is safe while incarcerated then when he/she is freed then they can be recompensed for their suffering. If they are to be executed or all legal avenues to REAL justice have been fruitlessly exhausted or blocked by subterfuge, etcetera, then the Paladin MUST ACT to preserve truth and justice even if it means contravening local laws (which have themselves been contravened by the setup in this case and therefore proven inneffective). Once the innocent have been protected and the truth revealved the Paladin should turn themselves in for whatever crimes they may have had to commit to see real justice done. Being a paladin is a task of service, sacrifice for others and the common good and leading by example and virtue. It also means you cannot rationalise your actions or take the path of expedience.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Instead of replying to Snorter, I'll just say "pretty much this." :) Also, this is Pathfinder we're talking about. When I say "evidence," it's most likely testimony I'm talking about. For example, let's say it's the city governor who's doing the framing. Does random paladin's testimony outweigh the governor's? Not likely. ----- Something to keep in mind for those in the "good over lawful" camp is that a small part of your personal code is actually RAW, and the RAW part of your code is the one that demands you be lawful. Respect legitimate authority, act with honor (don't lie, cheat, use poison, etc,) help those in need (provided they don't use said help for evil ends,) and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. What makes this an interesting thought experiment is that the "help those in need" is coming into conflict with "respect legitimate authority." Both are part of your code by RAW, and neglecting either will potentially cause you to lose your powers.
Neo2151 wrote: What makes this an interesting thought experiment is that the "help those in need" is coming into conflict with "respect legitimate authority." Both are part of your code by RAW, and neglecting either will potentially cause you to lose your powers. I'll simply note my point about exactly this in my first post: Respect and obey are different. Respectful disagreements are eminently possible, and you can even respect an enemy. Nothing in there about obeying legitimate authority, after all.
Just do what they would do on Gunsmoke. Try your best to find the guilty person and thereby clear the wrongly accused of his crimes.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
That's certainly a valid counter, and a situation that could occur in-game. I would say that, given the very real existence of illusion magic, shape-shifting, and memory-clouding, that this falls under my first paragraph. The paladin truly believed the accused was with him when the offences took place. Yet here are witnesses, some of whom may be rivals of the accused, but several of them with no reason to lie, who are willing to swear to seeing the accused, somewhere else, commiting the crime.
The paladin's first action should be to ensure that he has not been subject to trickery or magical deceit. It would be the height of hubris, to assume that he is incapable of being fooled, and to set himself against the court, and start hacking his way through confused citizens and bailiffs, who are trying to do their job. This is where the paladin's fellow PCs get on the case, to go through the accused's belongings, for signs he may not be what he seems.
That's how you deal with this, and keep the rest of the players involved. As opposed to just shouting "I KNOW I'm right! But I can't base this on any actual facts...".
Snorter wrote:
I disagree. If he was literally with him the whole time, and knows him well enough to believe he wasn't fooled, he has more than 'a feeling', he just doesn't have proof. Snorter wrote:
Well sure. Obviously, the first thing he does is testify and look for proof of the accused's innocence. But what if that doesn't work? Snorter wrote:
And what if the PCs do all this, find compelling evidence that proves his innocence...and it's destroyed (perhaps magically) before they get it to court? And they aren't believed, and their time runs out, and he's found guilty and about to be executed. This is a hypothetical, it's point is to explore a possible (if, perhaps, unlikely) situation, and what the moral thing to do in that situation is. Your points are all perfectly valid ways to potentially avoid having to make said decision, and good ones, but they aren't foolproof, the situation can still occur. And that's what the original question is exploring: what happens when it does. In a very real sense you aren't answering the question. He's asking "How do you escape from Orc slavers?" and you're answering with a lot of ways to avoid getting captured in the first place, but no real solution on what to do once you are. It's good, potentially useful, information but it has little to do with the actual question at hand.
There's a couple of things I'd like to mention. First, how does the court know that the paladin is a paladin? His testimony is no more inherently believable than another person's because the court doesn't know what his code is or that he would never break his word. Universal awareness of a paladin's virtues is not a given (it may be the case in the OP's world or in Golarion, but it is not necessarily so). Second, magic is probably not considered legally admissible for a number of reasons. First it is no more reliable than testimony since it can be shown to fail in even the most powerful of cases (even a 20th level caster can have the target roll a natural 20). Second it only conveys hearsay evidence since only the caster knows the result of most spells, so the caster then has to testify to what the spell revealed. Third it puts the power of the law into the hands of an elite group instead of a group of the accused peers, and elite groups are well known for having agendas of their own. So using my own campaign world as an example, magic can be used as an aid to investigation, but it does not prove anything. The magic must lead to a chain of evidence that a normal person finds reasonable and acceptable. Just thought I'd throw out these thoughts for the OP to consider. With these in mind, the situation he describes seems very possible to me.
Is trial by combat legitimate in the area? This is actually quite common in the middle ages/fantasy settings. If it is and I was playing a paladin, I would suggest to the accused that I will be his champion in a trial by combat.
A slightly different position: I pretty much disagree with those who assume that Good forces Chaos on a Lawful Good character. If the evidence is stacked against the accused in a natural way -- not illegally or unethically -- then I see the Paladin believing that "the process" and "the system" must be upheld, even if a few innocents are unfairly convicted of crimes; that the process must be a fair process to all. So, from this code of ethics, the Paladin's only recourse would be to do everything necessary to save this guy from the noose, but within the law. I understand some would rationalize what they would do if they were the Paladin, trying to choose the lesser of two evils ("It's not a legitimate court, I would rescue the innocent.", "I would rescue the innocent and try to atone by leaving a note and committing myself to proving his innocence"). But I see this as the players imposing their beliefs on their Paladin. If I were the DM, any rescue by force in this scenario would be seen as alignment-breaking. I would say these Paladins are acting in a Chaotic Good fashion. vidmaster is right -> this is a standard case of deontology (Kant) vs consequentialism (Mill) If we accept that "Chaotic" does not mean "random", then a Paladin who abides by a code of ethics that exists within his mind only is not Lawful, but rather Chaotic; if he acts in accordance to his conscience only, then he is not Lawful, but rather Chaotic. "Lawful" implies following the law of an objective body or organization (such as the church or a government) and upholding that law even when it makes mistakes. I can't see a church being sanctioned in a civilized land where it actively promoted vigilanteism or that it's Paladins/Inquisitors were to act outside the law of the land. So these churches would, almost ubiquitously, uphold the legitimate authorities and the local system of law, and so would their agents. The pure good deontologist (Lawful Good) would act solely within the law to save the innocent, whereas the pure good consequentialist (Chaotic Good) would choose the lesser of two evil courses to maximize the greatest good, such as using the flat of his blade as he knocked heads around to extract the accused after a guilty verdict. =============================== So, when the Law is in question and sides must be taken, you take the side of Law as being the greater good; you take the deontologist's (modern morality) approach: The system is the paramount good and the process must be upheld, even when mistakes are made, else what's the point of the Law? Every time someone believes an accused individual is innocent (based upon a subjectively-sufficient level of evidence to support that belief), they should try to break them out of jail? What happens to the vigilante if caught? What if the vigilante is right? What if the vigilante is wrong? What if the vigilante is lying and doesn't truly believe the accused is innocent? Doesn't sound like it makes for a very ordered, lawful, and peaceful society. It is wrong to circumvent the system. And if you're Chaotic Good, then you probably side against the Law; you take the consequentialist's position: The system is not perfect and when it fails, we have to contribute a healthy heaping of Good to make up for it. What value is a system that doesn't achieve the greatest Good? Sure, faith in the system is low and made lower by vigilanteism, but what does that matter when balanced against innocent lives? It is wrong to do nothing. =============================== But ultimately, it's like beej67 said. This type of question in these D&D and Pathfinder worlds is silly. Any decent system of justice would have impartial officials from the churches standing by to give the ultimate lie detector tests (Detect Magic / Detect Thoughts / Discern Lies / Zone of Truth). Cases could be resolved in 10 minutes with no need for courts or anything. Just drag the accused before a magistrate who has four clerics of Good (Serenrae, Iomedae, Desna, and Erastil) standing by to interrogate the individual. They each write down their findings and pass it to the magistrate. If there is a split on what the Clerics perceive, then a trial is required, but this should be extremely rare (magic immune creatures, perhaps, only). In most cases it should always be 4:0. So, "off with you" or "off with his head" is the result of this 10 minute meeting with the magistrate. Personally, I hate these types of mind-reading spells (Detect Thoughts / Discern Lies / Zone of Truth). They're far too story-ruining.
beej67 wrote:
What if they been the victim of a modify memory spell?
Snorter wrote:
Of course, we all know the reliability of witnesses. It's not like there's tons of research data and studies having been performed that state how unreliable witnesses can be. Oh wait...... Admittedly, this kind of research may not be available in a game.
Deadmanwalking wrote: ok i agree kant doesn't say one way or another what another but he does give you a way to decide if it is correct or not by asking yourself if everyone in the world subscribed to this action would it be a better world. so if everyone saved the innocent it would be a better world however if you look at it like if everyone helped people escape from execiton then its a bit rougher. the only thing i am trying to say here it more often then not these morale situations depend on the person making them. you can't judge someone else action morale or not except by your own standards but not necessarily theirs. but really im going to have to agree with snorter edit: ooo i missed jupitars post i like his best and put what i was thinking much better then i did.
Can they? Are divinations acceptable evidence in the courts? Are there casters of sufficient level willing to do so? Edit: For example.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Can they? Are divinations acceptable evidence in the courts? Are there casters of sufficient level willing to do so? And Discern Lies is hardly foolproof. If it says everyone is telling the truth, with contradictory statements, then someone must've made their Will Save (which probably isn't over DC 18-19 or so) but it gives no clues as to who.
If I were a king in a Pathfinder campaign, why in God's Green Earth would I not have my courtrooms Hallowed with a Zone of Truth tied to them? Why would my investigators not use Detect Lies? Honestly, if I were the Paladin in the top post I'd go right to the king and tell him his court system sucks, and anyone with half a brain aught to be able to avoid false convictions 99.99% of the time. The best way to follow my LG Paladin Code isn't to crack the guy out of prison, it's to fix the stupid judicial system that obviously doesn't use all of the super easy and totally cheap means it has available to get their convictions right. Hell, if I dominated you and forced you admit to a crime you didn't commit, they should still be able to tell that you're lying in your confession. There's basically no way a competent city investigative force can come up with a false conviction in this game.
beej67 wrote: If I were a king in a Pathfinder campaign, why in God's Green Earth would I not have my courtrooms Hallowed with a Zone of Truth tied to them? Why would my investigators not use Detect Lies? Why, money, my dear boy. Those spellcasting services don't come cheap, you know.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Can they? Are divinations acceptable evidence in the courts? Are there casters of sufficient level willing to do so? Not to necessarily disagree, just wanted to add some other thoughts here: a) Courts are unnecessary where divination magic is acceptable. b) TotB prohibited the use of divination because the Palitinate of Vieland is an "egalitarian culture" that feels forms of divination and coercion are not appropriate to a fair trial. But I have no idea how the latter is supposed to follow from the former (i.e. How is divination not egalitarian?). The logic is missing for me. c)Regardless, other than in such cases where such cultural taboos exist, I can't imagine where any civilization would grow very large before the Church finds it's coffers burgeoning by providing such clerical support to the governments (except for contrived situations). I can see a couple of cases, even though I consider them all unlikely to varying degrees, where it could play out that diviniation is not available:
I'm very interested in how DMs typically deal, in a believable fashion, with such magic in trying to prevent story ruination?
beej67 wrote: If I were a king in a Pathfinder campaign, why in God's Green Earth would I not have my courtrooms Hallowed with a Zone of Truth tied to them? A DC 15-17 Will Save, and you can lie all you like anyway. So, around a quarter of the time, even for low-average Will Save people. Plus there's, y'know, stuff like Glibness. It's a good idea, but hardly a magic bullet. beej67 wrote: Why would my investigators not use Detect Lies? Your investigators are all 5th level Inquisitors or 7th level casters, are they? Those are some elite investigators, there. And, again, less than DC 20 to avoid, even without, say, a Ring of Mind Shielding or other magical truth evasion abilities. beej67 wrote: Honestly, if I were the Paladin in the top post I'd go right to the king and tell him his court system sucks, and anyone with half a brain aught to be able to avoid false convictions 99.99% of the time. The best way to follow my LG Paladin Code isn't to crack the guy out of prison, it's to fix the stupid judicial system that obviously doesn't use all of the super easy and totally cheap means it has available to get their convictions right. That's an awfully high percentage to hold a spell that has, at best, a 95% success rate (and that's only on the very weakest willed) to. beej67 wrote: Hell, if I dominated you and forced you admit to a crime you didn't commit, they should still be able to tell that you're lying in your confession. There's basically no way a competent city investigative force can come up with a false conviction in this game. A basic investigation, with nobody actively working against it? Maybe not. An actual frame-job? Possibly including things like sabotaging truth-detection or making even the accused believe they're guilty? That's all too doable, you just need a competent villain runnng the frame.
beej67 wrote:
I've been thinking about this "egalitarian" issue and trying to figure out how it might be unfair to use these sorts of spells. I suppose, it would be unfair if certain people were immune or could easily negate the spells with a will save. For example, elves have spell resistance and could more easily lie in a Zone of Truth than could a human. There is no Saving Throw for Detect Evil. But Zone of Truth and Discern Lies do allow a Will negation, and while Discern Lies bypasses Spell Resistance, Zone of Truth does not. So while the average human might not be able to resist four different clerics using the Zone of Truth and Discern Lies spells, someone might, and that would mean an unfair, discriminatory court (discriminating against the less powerful).
Given the very real existence of illusion magic, shape-shifting, memory-clouding, etc. there can be no such thing as "incontrovertible proof" of innocence or of guilt, as any example of either could be conceivably forged. In fact, in such a world where any memory, sensation or observation could be manufactured, or otherwise false, one's own perceptions and intuitions are indeed all one can truly rely on. If you take away a Paladin's, or any character's freedom to act upon his own perceptions, then how is he to act at all in any situation? To give a specific example, a Paladin is fairly certain that the creature who stands before him (if, in fact, there is a creature standing before him) is a demon. Furthermore, it does appear to the Paladin that that demon is about to sacrifice the maiden the Paladin has been sent to rescue (if, in fact, the Paladin has received any such quest and is not merely recalling a false memory.) In this example, should the Paladin rely on his best judgment, slay the demon and rescue the maiden? It is possible that the creature he perceives is not a demon at all, but a goodly priest; it is conceivable that standing before him is none other than the maiden herself swooning into the arms of her would-be rescuer; or perhaps the true situation is one which the Paladin has not yet fathomed. Truly, the Paladin could endeavor to find additional evidence, that might, to him, reveal the true nature of the events transpiring, but no matter how much evidence he obtains, he can never be certain whether his perceptions are veracious or fallacious. So which is it, to use one's own best judgment, to act upon what could very well be false sensations and illusory perceptions, perhaps to potential ruin, or to simply never act, no matter the circumstance?


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The National Foundation for Infectious Diseases is accredited by the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education (ACCME) to provide continuing medical education (CME) for physicians.
ACCME accreditation seeks to assure both physicians and the public that CME activities sponsored by NFID meet the high standards of the Essential Areas and Elements (including the Standards for Commercial Support) and Accreditation Policies established by ACCME. The ACCME rigorously evaluates the overall CME programs of institutions according to standards adopted by all seven sponsoring organizations of the ACCME, including: the American Board of Medical Specialties; the American Hospital Association; the American Medical Association; the Association for Hospital Medical Education; the Association of American Medical Colleges; the Council of Medical Specialty Societies; and the Federation of State Medical Boards.

subset: commoncrawl


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'Grace,' Starring Paul Rudd and Michael Shannon, Falls Quickly
Paul Rudd, Michael Shannon, Kate Arrington, and Ed Asner make impressive attempts at shaping Craig Wright's flat characters in this overly metaphorical production.
'Grace,' Starring Paul Rudd and Michael Shannon, Falls Quickly
Paul Rudd, Michael Shannon, Kate Arrington, and Ed Asner make impressive attempts at shaping Craig Wright's flat characters in this overly metaphorical production.
'Mulan the Musical' Excitingly Blends Eastern and Western Culture
In "Mulan the Musical," the Red Poppy Ladies, an all-female Chinese percussion troupe, use dazzling drumming to tell the tale of a young woman who disguises herself as a soldier.
'The Trip to Bountiful' Is a Not-to-Be-Missed Treasure
The magnificent Cicely Tyson gives a performance for the ages in director Michael Wilson's impeccable Broadway revival of Horton Foote's 1953 masterwork "The Trip to Bountiful."
'Eterniday' Celebrates the Inexplicable
With "Eterniday," at La MaMa, author Charles Mee continues his collaboration with experimental dance-theater group Witness Relocation, in a raucously fun collage about connection.
'666 Park Avenue' Recap: Episode 7: 'Downward Spiral'
Amid much plot filler, Jane discovers the secret to both her precious heirloom locket and the basement dragon mosaic.
'666 Park Avenue' Recap: Episode 4, 'Hero Complex'
The ghosts and basement dreams take a backseat to political intrigues as dull and lifeless as Jane's roots this week.
'Rodgers + Hammerstein's Cinderella' Gets Beaned
Douglas Carter Beane's ambitious but ungainly rewrite of Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II's 1957 TV musical "Cinderella" creates a show at war with itself.
'666 Park Avenue' Recap: Episode 2, 'Murmurations'
Drake building manager Jane has been so busy wandering around the scary building in her sleep that she hasn't had time to touch up her roots; also, Robert Buckley takes a shower.
'Macbeth OP' Is Both Fair and Foul
The Shakespeare OP Players' production of "Macbeth" aims to perform the work as it may have sounded to its first audiences, but also noteworthy is the dedication of the large cast.
'Smash' Recap: Episode 13, 'The Producers'
Julia and Tom are breaking up, Jimmy goes on a bender, and Kyle gets Smashed in this week's episode of "Smash."


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SearchBest of Hudson Valley WinnersCategory
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Harmon Discount Beauty SuppliesEssential Information
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Rte. 59 Nanuet, NY 10954 845-624-0603 Beauty supplies for individuals and salons from a variety of brand names. Additional InformationCategory: Beauty Supplies Store City: Nanuet County: Rockland Web Site: http://www.harmondiscount.com/ |
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A medical license is required for a doctor to practice medicine in a particular state. Requirements vary by state but most require, at a minimum, post-graduate training in the doctor's specific specialty. An NPI number is a national identifier unique to an individual health care provider and is managed by the Center for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS).
Learn more about Dr. Vivien Shiah:
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Dr. Vivien Shiah, MD is board certified in Emergency Medicine.
She has special expertise in 1 Area, including Plastic Surgery (Cosmetic & Reconstructive Surgery).
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Dr. Shiah graduated from Drexel University , Philadelphia.
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Dr. Shiah has 9 hospital affiliations:
- NewYork-Presbyterian / Weill Cornell
- New York Presbyterian Hospital / The Allen Pavilion
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Dr. Vivien Shiah practices Emergency Medicine, Emergency Medical Services, and Plastic Surgery near New York, NY.
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Dr. Bacon's Background
Research training, expertise and qualifications
Dr. Bacon's Specialties
- Emergency Medicine, Board Certified
More About Dr. Bacon's Background
Hospital Quality
The right hospital is as important as the right doctor
- Holston Valley Medical Center
- 130 West Ravine Road
- Kingsport, TN 37660
- Wellmont Bristol Regional Medical Center
- One Medical Parks Boulevard
- Bristol, TN 37620
9 Facts About Hospital Quality
You have an 85.6% lower risk of dying at a hospital with 5-stars for heart bypass surgery compared to a hospital with 1-star. Choosing the right hospital is critical to your health. View Slideshow
Patient Satisfaction
Patients' feedback on their experience with Dr. Bacon
Likelihood of recommending Dr. Bacon to family and friends is 1 out of 5
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8 Facts About Patient Satisfaction Surveys
Patient satisfaction surveys provide a standardized way of reporting about healthcare experiences. But there can be more that meets the eye when reviewing scores. Here's what you should know
Appointments & Offices
Check insurance plans, locations and make an appointment
Accepted Insurances
- Aetna
- AmeriGroup
- Assurant Health
- Blue Cross and Blue Shield
- See all 11 insurances accepted
- 415 Broad St Suite 410
- Kingsport, TN 37660
- Northeast Tennessee Emerg Physical
- 130 W Ravine Rd
- Kingsport, TN 37660
7 Tips to Prepare for Your Appointment
The key to a successful appointment is communication. To get the most out of your visit, prepare ahead of time so you can lead the conversation with your doctor. These 7 tips will get you ready


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The 2014 Summer Camp Program Schedule is now available! Click on "Summer Camp" in the panel at left to check it out!
Summer Camp Registration RV Reservations
For over 50 years, Camp Concordia has existed to provide opportunities to encounter Christ in the midst of God's Creation, enriching the bodies and souls of the thousands of campers, families, and staff who have come to this beautiful camp. With the guidance of enthusiastic counselors, campers learn about God's infinite love for them and gain respect for each other and for nature through activities such as devotions, campfire songs, field games, swimming, and canoeing. Whether it's a week-long youth camp, our high school program, a mini-camp for new campers, or bringing the whole family in for family week, Camp Concordia has a getaway for everyone. In a world where electronics and impersonal interaction are flourishing, the camp experience may be just what your family or your child needs: relaxation, being active, making friends, and most importantly, experiencing the love and presence of God, all in the beautiful Michigan outdoors.


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Elective streams and limits
Note to Visiting Students:
3rd-year electives are only available to students at UT Health Medical School.
If you wish to complete an elective at UT Health, and you are in the 4th year (final year), please follow this link to our 4th-year catalog.


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A long, long time ago (less than a week) in a bar far, far away (about 3 subway stops) Victory Brewery held a night of epic craft beer proportions. The Blind Tiger Ale House hosted Victory Brewery last Wednesday night, 7/14/10, showcasing 20+ of their brews. Two of the beer friends made this long trek and their account of the night follows below. Enjoy! (more…)
Posts Tagged 'Hollertauer'
Victory Beer Night at the Blind Tiger Ale House
July 21, 2010Tags:Amarillo, Barleywine, Bavarian Pale Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Blind Tiger Ale House, CBC, Grassy Jack Bitter, Helios, Hollerdauer, Hollertauer, Hop Devil, IPA, July Good Beer Month, New York City Good Beer Month, Old Horizontal, Pursuit Pale Ale, Rauchbier, Saisons, Scarlet Fire, Victory
Posted in Bars, Beers, Brewery, Event | 1 Comment »


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Ragdoll Cannon
Puzzle, ShootingAt first, you might think that Ragdoll Cannon is like Kitten Cannon or Critter Cannon but you'd be wrong… DEAD wrong! Ragdoll Cannon is all about launching your stick guy onto the goal in the least amount of shots possible. Ragdoll Cannon looks like it was drawn on a piece of paper with a pen… you'll see what I mean.


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Topkapi Palace Museum
Built in the 15th century, the Topkapi Palace was the principal residence of the Sultan. It was the legendary palace of the Ottoman Sultans from the 15th to the 19th centuries. The palace has low buildings set in a series of courtyards and is quite unlike its western counterparts. Be sure to see the Harem (by appointment), the Treasury and the golden-roofed Baghdad Kiosk.
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This sixth-century church is located within the courtyard of the Topkapi Palace.
This awesome columned cavern was the water source for both the Grand Palace of the Byzantine Empire and for the Ottomans' Topkapi Palace.
Blue Mosque
2 minutes walk


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Broccoli CasserolePretty good. I used white cheddar goldfish crackers. I think next time I will cook up some chicken to put in it next time.on Sunday, June 05, 2011 |
Bryan's Mexican CasseroleVery good recipe. I used black beans instead of ranch style, mushrooms in place of the tomatoes, subbed 1/2 a LB. of the hamburger for 1/2 a LB. of corizo and use twice as much picante sauce. this is about the 4th time I have made it. love it!!on Friday, May 20, 2011 |
Thin Crust PizzaI worked in 3 different pizza shops when I was younger and if there is one thing I know how to make its pizza. Using tortilla's for the crust is absolutely brilliant!! They came out perfect! Thanks for the Recipe.on Monday, May 02, 2011 |
Cheesy Chicken and Rice BakeOh, and the frozen peas were a nice touch as well.on Sunday, May 01, 2011 |
Crockpot Pizza CasseroleVery good! And you can put whatever you want in it. I did a meat lovers the other night and it saw awesome.on Saturday, April 02, 2011 |
Mushrooms Sauteed with Garlic ButterThese turned out great! The whole family loved them and had me make twice as much the next night.on Saturday, April 02, 2011 |


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Atul posted the mail as a prelude to the much awaited CfP. And, I'd say that it is going to become a much forwarded and much discussed mail. It is meant to be that. Discussion is good. Results are much better.
It is somewhat difficult for an event to re-invent itself and yet keep the focus on the underlying theme – "Talk is Cheap, Show Me the Code". It takes introspection, it takes ambition and it takes faith. So, this time around the focus is clear enough – no content that is aimed at newbies (which was there last time around as well) and a strong focus on getting things done. To that extent, I'd hazard a guess that the selection of submissions would go through a fine tooth comb to see if they are actually about approaches to solving a defined problem. It is not going to be a "look at me and my project and ain't I cool" talk again. And, to augment the need to sit down and "work" there are Project of the Day and FOSS Workouts.
Effective this year, FOSS.IN will focus on developers, and results. It
will highlight credible efforts by people in India contributing to FOSS,
and will bring together developers at peer level, to allow them to
interact, discuss, develop and deliver."Delivery" does not mean mere bug fixing. Delivery will be new features to
existing applications, completely new subsystems (e.g. file systems,
device drivers, etc.), (re)design of systems and applications, etc.
But of course this doesn't rule out why folks come to events – to meet other people, get familiar, discuss a niggling issue and have loads of debugging sessions and debates.
FOSS.IN is supposed to be a meeting ground for existing and potential FOSS
contributors, so that they can put faces to IRC nicks, discuss, interact,
collaborate, plan, debug, etc. all through the event.We want people to come to FOSS.IN with definite goals in mind, and fulfil
them at the event. Whether it is improving an existing project, launching
a new one, brainstorming with your peers, with international participants,
etc. We want to see high-intensity FOSS contribution happening, or being
seeded, in the 750 seater hall, the corridors, the BOF tents, the lawns,
the lobbies, etc.
It is going to be a different event. It is going to make you think. It is aimed at making you do things. It is thought out to be a new experience.
Don't say you weren't forewarned.
§ 3 Responses to And here it comes…"
Hat's off to Foss Team
Just this snippet makes me bit unhappy,
— In email@example.com, Atul Chitnis wrote:
> And the bottom line is that while there was a measureable increase in
> people getting involved in FOSS contribution, the quality left a lot to be
> desired. Most new contributors focused only on low hanging fruit, such as
> translations, and distro-specific packaging. If people got involved with
> code, it was usually bug fixes and code maintenance.
>It was too harsh remark in my view calling translations and distro specific packaging a low hanging fruit.
It is all relative. Even calling contributions to a specific project where coding is also very straight forward can be called as low hanging fruit.
For example maintaining httpd server, emacs, gtk is not easy job. Packaging involves very very complex tasks sometime. But then there are very easy packages also.
Similar is the case with translations or code contributions.
So, all in all it is very relative.
What say?
Being a new developer to the project CHDK(Canon Hack Development Kit), it would surely make me think to submit my topic to the foss.in team. I had made 2 patches of which, one of them is submitted and will enter the trunk as soon as possible(thats what the developer told me!!!) and the other patch is yet to be submitted. Anyway this time I cannot see any newbies. But fortunately I am planning to conduct a BOF and of-course hack my cam, add more and more features and fix more bugs, with the limited time I have!!!


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Pittsburgh, PA Wednesday December 11, 2013 |
News Sports Lifestyle Classifieds About Us |
Thursday, May 01, 2003 By Byron Spice, Post-Gazette Science Editor
"R2D2, meet NavLab, the truck that steers itself."
That could be the scene at the induction ceremonies at the new Robot Hall of Fame, which Carnegie Mellon University officials announced last night.
Created by the university's School of Computer Science and Robotics Institute in collaboration with the Carnegie Science Center and the state tourism and economic development departments, the hall will honor noteworthy robots, both real and fictional, with interactive exhibits.
Pittsburgh, already touted as the Detroit of robotics, thus could become the field's Cooperstown as well.
The hall will induct its first honorees this fall and initially will be housed at CMU. But it may be included, along with a large robotics exhibit and arena, in a proposed expansion of the Carnegie Science Center, said James Morris, dean of Carnegie Mellon's computer science school.
Betsy Momich, spokeswoman for Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh, said a robotics hall and exhibit will be considered as officials develop plans for the expansion. But much remains to be determined. Parisian architect Jean Nouvel was selected for the project last year and schematic plans are being developed this year. Decisions about construction will depend in part on fund-raising efforts.
"We're committed to make this [hall] happen," Momich said. "Whether it's on our site or not, the commitment is there."
The hall will include either the robots themselves, or replicas. But just as the Baseball Hall of Fame is more than a bunch of old, musty uniforms, the hall envisioned by Morris would include a number of interactive educational and entertaining exhibits about robots. As demonstrated by UPMC SportsWorks, the science center's staff is adept at creating this sort of exhibit, he noted.
An exhibit within the expanded science center might also include a permanent or portable arena for RoboCup robotic soccer competitions, Morris said.
Inductees to the hall will be selected by a 10-member jury that includes noted roboticist Rodney Brooks, director of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, and science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke, author of "2001: A Space Odyssey."
Morris expects two to five robots will be inducted each year, including real robots that do actual work or research as well as fictional robots that have fired the public's imagination. The jury is still discussing the criteria, but some robots would seem to be shoo-ins.
"Arthur C. Clarke has mentioned HAL twice now," Morris noted, referring to the HAL 9000 computer that controlled a robotic spaceship and ultimately turned villainous in "2001."
CMU could nominate a few of its own, such as the NavLab series of automated vehicles; Dante II, the walking robot that explored the inside of an active volcano; and Rover, the robot that retrieved sediment samples from the crippled Three Mile Island reactor. NASA's Sojourner robot, which captivated an international audience when it explored Mars in 1997, is another likely nominee, as could be any number of robotic spacecraft, such as the Voyagers.
Carnegie Mellon announced the hall last night as part of the kickoff for the RoboCup American Open, a competition here this week for North and South American robotic soccer teams. The open will serve as a tune-up for this summer's International RoboCup competition in Padua, Italy.
Morris said CMU is bidding to bring the International RoboCup to Pittsburgh in 2007. But that competition has become so big -- more than 120,000 people attended last year's matches in Japan -- that it likely would be played in the David L. Lawrence Convention Center rather than the science center, he said. This week's American Open, sort of a RoboCup Lite, is being held in CMU's University Center and will continue through Sunday.
Nominations to the hall of fame are open and will be accepted until Aug. 31. They can be e-mailed to Morris at email@example.com. The jury will make its selections by Oct. 1 and the inductees will be announced at a Nov. 30 ceremony.
In addition to Brooks and Clarke, the jury includes Morris and these members:
Minoru Asada, professor of engineering at Osaka University and founder of the International RoboCup Federation.
Ellsworth Brown, president, Carnegie Museums.
Henrik Christensen, director, Centre for Autonomous Systems, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm.
Ray Jarvis, director, Intelligent Robotics Research Centre, Monash University, Melbourne, Australia.
Donald Marinelli, drama professor and co-director of CMU's Entertainment Technology Center.
Raj Reddy, founder of the Robotics Institute.
Chuck Thorpe, director of the Robotics Institute.
Byron Spice can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.com
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From the Test Track
The Yukon has better handling, braking, ride, and interior materials than its predecessor. 4WD models have a selectable full-time system that can remain engaged indefinitely. ESC is standard. A hybrid version gets 19 mpg, a big improvement.
User ReviewsThe community thinks...
Test Driver
The "WOW" Suv.
by MAR from Salt Rock on 01/26/2013.
Trim: 2013 GMC Yukon SLE 4WD.
Style, quality, colors, handling, durable. This is of course the cream of the crop in suvs. The Yukon looks great for years of ownership pride: others age rapidly and need replaced 3 times before the yukon!
The price is over the hill for the average car buyer.
Overall review:
Test drive this vehicle if you get the chance.
Review ID: #569046
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Middleweight beltholder Peter Quillin could soon defend his WBO title against promotional stablemate Danny Jacobs.
RING Ratings Update: The rise of Golovkin
Gennady Golovkin rises in the middleweight ratings after his electric knockout of Grzegorz Proksa on Saturday in Verona, N.Y., on HBO. A Beast from the East has arrived. Gennady Golovkin dismantled Grzegorz Proksa on Saturday in a manner that has drawn comparisons to the sport's greatest punchers, creating a palpable buzz in the process. The fans love a boxer with crushing power. Some already have anointed Golovkin the best middleweight in the world despite the presence of RING Champion Sergio Martinez and the likes of Daniel Geale, Felix Sturm and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. In our current RING poll, 68.7 percent say that Martinez remains the top 160-pounder but Golovkin is second at 14.2 percent. And that's after only one high-profile victory. Of course, we mustn't get carried away. Golovkin entered the fight against Proksa, his first in the United States, as THE RING's No. 8-rated middleweight. He moves up to No. 4 – behind only Martinez, Geale, Sturm and Chavez – after his victory Saturday in Verona, N.Y. We have a feeling he won't stop there. RING RATINGS UPDATE Cruiserweight: The Editorial Board decided to wait until after Steve Cunningham's heavyweight debut against Jason Gavern on Saturday to remove him from the 200-pound ratings. Cunningham (No. 3 at cruiserweight last week) seems to have made permanent move but we decided it wouldn't hurt to wait one more week to see how he feels and hear what he has to say after the fight. Middleweight: Geale (No. 2 last week) outworked Sturm (No. 1 last week) to win a split decision in a close fight Saturday in Germany. Thus, they flop positions. A more-difficult question was what to do about Proksa (No. 9 last week), who was annihilated and is 2-2 in his last four fights. We considered dropping him from the ratings but decided only to drop him to No. 10 in part because he had the guts to step into the ring with a monster while others were reluctant to do so. Plus, there were no obvious choices to replace him in a thin division. Junior bantamweight: Tepparith Singwancha (No. 2 last week) outpointed Nobuo Nashiro (No. 7 last week) on Saturday in Japan. Singwancha stays put. Nashiro, who has lost four consecutive title fights, barely hangs on at No. 10. Flyweight: Moruti Mthalane (No. 4 last week) moves up one notch after stopping unrated Ricardo Nunez in eight rounds Saturday in Panama. Strawweight: Unrated Mario Rodriguez stopped Nkosinathi Joyi (No. 2 last week) in seven rounds in a stunning upset Saturday in Rodriguez's native Mexico. Rodrgiuez enters the ratings at No. 6 while Joyi drops to No. 7. Rodriguez is only 15-6-4 (11 knockouts) but has looked impressive over the past year, winning five consecutive fights (four by KO). That includes victories over Gilberto Keb Baas and now the South African Joyi. UP NEXT Rated fighters in action this coming weekend (with current ratings)
All bouts on Saturday: |


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At the Piaggio Museum in Pontedera (Pisa)…
.."Corradino D'Ascanio: a man, a genius, a magician, a myth" : an exhibit dedicated to the egineer that invented the legendary and world known symbol of the italian Style: the Vespa Scooter!
The event will be held in conjunction with the 120 years since the birth of D'Ascanio and the13th anniversary of the death of one of the symbols of Made in Italy in the world.
The exhibition is divided into four sections – the Man, the Genius, the Magician and the Myth – and features technical drawings, pictures and movies of the era, multimedia reproductions of D'Ascanio's work and the reconstruction of the workstation on which D'Ascanio designed the Vespa, but also the prototype modern helicopter.
The exhibition will be open until January 31, 2012.
For more information you can check the official Museo Piaggio website!
Are you a Vespa fan?
If one of your dreams is to drive around the tuscan hills driving a Vespa, you definitely should follow our tips about the best Tuscan Vespa Tours!