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There are many obvious suspects, but it is unlikely that we will ever know who is responsible for the assassination of Benazir Bhutto
Benazir Bhutto has been assassinated. Who did it? The blunt answer is no one knows and no one is likely to know for the foreseeable future. The range of suspects is of course vast.
There are of course the most obvious: the various bands of militants ideologically linked to the Afghan Taliban who have established bases on the Pakistani border with Afghanistan. Several of their leaders have pledged to kill Bhutto - who represents everything they detest and fear most - many times. They have the motivation and the wherewithal. Do they stand to gain from her death? Not in any direct sense. Do they care? Not really, murdering a westernised, secular woman leader who they see as a traitor to their faith, culture and society would be reward enough in itself. In many instances these militants and groups are connected to broader organisations and ideological currents within the hardline Deobandi school of Islam.
Then there is al-Qaida itself. Osama bin Laden and his associates equally detested Bhutto, as much for what she represents as anything else. And, like the Pakistani militants, they would need no excuse to kill her. In addition, however, they stand to gain tactically and strategically. Disrupting the coming elections will help maintain instability in Pakistan, which allows them to keep their bases and build their infrastructure on the nation's territory. A high-profile assassination, which has never really been al-Qaida's style until now, would be exactly the sort of spectacular attack they have been seeking for some period without getting. They will have known it would receive massive media attention. I would not be surprised if there is an al-Qaida claim of responsibility in the coming days.
There are also the vast array of constantly changing cells and groups linked to sectarian violence within Pakistan, who were once operative in Kashmir, who are connected to criminal networks and have tried big political assassinations in the past. They could too be involved in one way or another - perhaps supplying safehouses, explosives, contacts. Many used to be based in Rawalpindi - I used to visit their offices there before 2001 - and have a stronger presence in the eastern Punjab than in the western frontier province.
Then of course there are Bhutto's political opponents in Pakistan. The Pakistan Muslim League faction, led by Nawaz Sharif, are not above some pretty stiff political tactics, but eliminating one of their main opponents in such a fashion is too extreme for them. And anyway they would not benefit from the cancellation of the elections, weak though in some ways they are.
Bhutto herself, talking to me two weeks ago, spoke of the hardcore of senior military officers, spies, retired generals and others who she believed ran a shadow state in Pakistan with strong Islamic militant sympathies and who wanted to destroy her. She constantly made such claims that were often exaggerated, but they did contain a kernel of truth.
There are many within the Pakistani establishment who would have wanted her dead. Is President Musharraf among them? I think not. He is a soldier, a nationalist, a pragmatic and far from a convinced democrat, but I do not think he is a closet Islamist. He does not benefit from her murder as it undermines his sole justification for being in power: that he is the only person around capable of maintaining order - with the army as well. Yet there are others within the military, and especially the sprawling intelligence services, who do not necessarily follow his orders.
Finally, it is worth looking back at a previous attempt on Bhutto's life - not that of October 18 this year but back in the early 90s, when Ramzi Yousef, now in prison in America for trying to blow up the Twin Towers, attempted to assassinate her. That scheme involved local criminal elements, senior Islamic militants from the Gulf, a local Afghan hardline commander with Saudi Arabian links, Yousef himself and money from overseas. A similar combination may be behind this murder. It is unlikely, sadly, that we will ever really know.
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Since Jason's expertise would fall in value if the "war on terror" were summarily cancelled, can we assume this is the reason why he maintains the lie and refuses to call an end to these resource/pipeline/petrocurrency wars?
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At a push I would be more inclined to suspect hard-line Islamist elements rather than Musharaf, but as you say, we may never know.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]this is very quick off the mark but is it written by Jason Burke or Mary Clarke - I think we should be told - at any rate it's very sad and a bad day for Pakistan.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]It does make one wonder, though, about the left, especially people who write for the Guardian, with their support, implicit or explicit, of Islamists, for which Butto was the ultimate affront, and their agenda, simply because it happens to be anti-US. One can't help but look at these pictures and wonder what world we are going to leave our children.
I'm sure there will be scores of columns by the apologists here for Islamists about how Muslims could never do such a thing, how it must be some Western plot, or the fault of the Jews. Smarten up, people, or those pictures could very well be downtown London or Paris or Barcelona within a few years...
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Now the Mary clarke thread has vanished - people will think I am bonkers....
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"There are many obvious suspects, but it is unlikely that we will ever know who is responsible for the assassination of Benazir Bhutto"
She's not even cold yet for heaven's sake! Isn't an article presuming we won't know who the culprits are somewhat premature?
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[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Who, why, what and when is irrelevant, Butto was a dead woman walking. The big question is where this ends, are we going to have an extremist Muslims with a finger on the nuclear button!
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]If - and I did say if - the USA said to Bhutto "our ally Musharraf is going out of office and we need something better than to have Pakistan taken over by Islamic militants... Can you go back in? We'll cover your arse!" then they were writing cheques which they simply could not cash.
She was corrupt in office. This "martyr status" stuff is pretty damned bogus. If she'd been less corrupt, then Mushy would never have taken over with mass popular approval.
Poor bloody Pakistan!
They've been "independent" for fifty or sixty years, and they have not had so much as six months of non-corrupt democratic government so far. And are they about to get it in the next six months? No.
Who did it? Give over! The hyper-Islamic dementoids did it. They didn't do it "because she used to be corrupt"; they did it because they hate anyone and everyone who is not also a hyper-Islamic dementoid.
Love her or not, it just plain sucks. But with any luck, "this will start a civil war" won't turn out to be true. Pakistan has enough troubles already. If civil war is the answer, what was the question?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Shouldn't we post a CIF piece which allows her supporters to leave messages of support before we post a piece speculating on her killers? Her death and the subsequent power vacuum it leaves within the Pakistan is ideal for Musharaf and gives the US presidential candidates more terrorism fodder. But right now, today, we should concentrate on the woman we have just lost and not the people who committed this act of murder.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Pakistan has been one to watch with interest over the past month or two. The invasion of Iran, which has been on and off constantly for at least two years now, took a body blow earlier in the month with the publication of the National Intelligence Estimate which stated Iran was currently not pursuing nuclear weapons. But of course, geopolitics doesn't just grind to a halt when a strategic problem like this crops up - it simply seeks to accomplish its goals via a different path. Hence the massive destabilisation of Pakistan over the past half year.
Given that this is all about oil, Pakistan forms a key link in the oil supply chain from Afghanistan and the Caspian Basin. Also, now that an Iranian invasion is off the cards for the time being, it has become vital to isolate Iran as much as possible, and surround it with American troops. Gaining control of Pakistan was always on the cards for the Project for the New American Century, but things have definitely been brought forwards very rapidly with the NIE and the necessary retreat from Iran.
Remember of course that Musharraf himself successfully instituted a state of emergency in early December and managed to change the law to bring direct control of Pakistan's nukes into his hands only - and not into those of any elected prime minister. Given the impending civil war in Pakistan, this seems like an amazingly prescient move - except of course there are rarely any coincidences in geopolitics. Theoretically at least, no matter how bad the civil war gets, the nuclear arsenal remains in Musharraf's hands; the question now of course is how long before the UN offers Musharraf a peacekeeping force, which of course will be predominantly under American control. We can probably expect this within a few weeks at most.
The UK and US media are already painting Bhutto's assassination as linked to - surprise, surprise - Al Qaeda. Doubtless the Taliban will be implicated too. And probably Sauron, Kim Jong Il, Vlad the Impaler, and the Bastard Lovechild of Hitler and Joseph Goebbels, just for good measure. After all, we need to get some knees jerking if this thing is going to work...
Next stop - Pakistan! Lets get those Iranians surrounded, boys!
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Benazir Bhutto - dead - bad news. It makes me worry about Doctor Ron Paul. Will the people that oppose his policies just choose to kill him if he starts doing too well?
Perhaps our pathetic modern version of so-called democracy has gone orf the rails. Perhaps people behind the scenes love the current system which gives their assassins lots of opportunities. I don't think the FBI or the MI5 are capable of protecting political leaders during elections - and I think that's exactly what the fiat money powers want.
I don't think USUK democracy is democracy ... in the US or the UK or Pakistan or anywhere ...
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Deleted by moderator
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Quite ironic that the first woman prime minister of India and now Pakistan have both been assassinated.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]A failed society has two options.1) to acknowledge its failure and attempt to change or 2) to refuse to accept that reality and to blame others for that obvious failure.Sadly, just as an addict must reach bottom before he/she can turn a life around, so it is with such societies that choose to live in denial.There are some rough times ahead.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Well I'm sure nutbag Islamists would just love to get their hands on a nuclear button and they would love to impose their brand of totalitarianism on Pakistan. "Martydom" is all about ego and narcissism. The most hateful and unloving thing anyone could do. The Presidents Bush and Musharraf actually looked scared. Lets hope Pakistan does not dissolve into civil war.God bless everyone.A very very sad day.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Maybe it would be better to let the dust settle and the blood dry before analysing the situation but that's the way the media works these days.
Compared to a military dictator and the Taliban, Mrs. Bhutto was by far the least worst option, despite all her well-documented faults. Now it looks like there will only be a choice between the dictator and the jihadists. A bad day indeed for Pakistan but also for the region and the world at large. Of all the nuclear weapons (real and potential) in the world at the moment the ones in Pakistan are the ones the world needs to worry about. Not good.
Whoever did it obviously believes Pakistan should be governed by sharia law as opposed to being a democracy. The problem isn't figuring out the responsibility of a specific person or group, but figuring out how much of Pakistan's population believes that as well. Has the number reached the tipping point?
A January election with no candidates, but a choice between sharia and democratic law, would be enlightening. I would hope it would show the weakness of the fundamentalists, but if not at least we'd know the size of the opposition.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]The butler did it, with the chapati flour, in the park exit.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]To echo some of the comments above, the cluedo stuff can come later.
Today is the day to be sad.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Logic suggests that we start with the premise: who has the greatest chance to kill her and who stands to gain the most political capital from Ms Benazir Bhutto' death?
Only by approaching Ms Bhutto's death in this way do we get clearer picture of various actors-- including the general, the CIA, Al Qauda, etc,
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Strongman: 'Since Jason's expertise would fall in value if the "war on terror" were summarily cancelled, can we assume this is the reason why he maintains the lie and refuses to call an end to these resource/pipeline/petrocurrency wars?'
Yes, I've been wondering about that too. Jason, why don't you call an end to these wars? We all know that you could bring them to an end with a click of your fingers, so please do so.
MrDismal: 'Benazir Bhutto - dead - bad news. It makes me worry about Doctor Ron Paul. Will the people that oppose his policies just choose to kill him if he starts doing too well?'
My bet, looking at his polling figures, is that we'll never get the chance to find out.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Musharraf is my first suspect. The taliban, my second choice - but she supported them when she was in power and her change of heart wouldn't bother them much unless they were afraid of what she'd do if she got elected - - - which says Volumes about their relation with Musharraf.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"My bet, looking at his polling figures, is that we'll never get the chance to find out."
If you don't understand how those official polls are collected, you'll never understand how they are the least reliable method of predicting primary results.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Darling AnastasiaUSA - said:
"... the asinine belief that Islam is a religion of peace..."
Islam waxes and wanes and sometimes it's about peace and sometimes it's about war. Christianity is the same. Judaism gave birth to both Christianity and Islam and deserves to be utterly condemned for that reason alone.
For a philosopher that I think is good one needs to hike no further than Epicurus - and for philosophies that are bad one needs to look no further than the religions that the Old Testament has spawned. The "Good" is very simple. People should be free to do whatever they want so long as they don't damage other people in the process (and one must take permission into account and local opinion - and taxation definitely damages people against their will and breaches the damages principle and taxation is nearly always practiced by people who are working for and helping rich and powerful people exploit poor and weak people).
There are some very evil people pulling political strings at the present time and, on balance, I think the Islamists look like good guys compared with the psychopathic plutocrats that rule the Belt Way (and look at the contempt the Belt Way folk showed for the victims of Katrina - close to home - and don't we know in our hearts that they are racists through and through and feel nothing but hatred and contempt for all humans that they do not see as being like themselves) - and we should all hate the people of the Belt Way ... for they are irrational and selfish and lacking in sympathy (let alone empathy) and are the kind of people that would sell their own grandmothers to a soap factory. These Belt Way people manipulate the news so as to get the average American couch potato sympathising with victims of a rocket attack in Israel and being unaware of a little boy getting his head sliced off by an American made missile fired by an Israeli war plane at Lebanese Civilians with the intention of psychologically intimidating Lebanese people. These Belt Way people think cluster bombs, when used by the Israelis, are good things which make the world a better place.
These Belt Way people probably killed Benazir Bhutto.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"Her return to Pakistan has been almost completely choreographed by Britain and the United States..."
If this is the case, we could say that she is one of the numerous collateral damages of the Anglo-American strategy in the region.
I am not naive but we shouldn't deny the fact that Pakistan is becoming a hotbed for extremists and brain full of hate evil minded people. So what do you expect? Democracy in Pakistan! well it may take years. Nowadays religion is becoming a convenient tool of fanatics to pursue their hate and murder indiscriminately.
"Shouldn't we post a CIF piece which allows her supporters to leave messages of support before we post a piece speculating on her killers?"
Fair point, Cantonaldo.
We should all be paying tribute to a very brave woman. She knew her life was in danger but she never looked back and respect is due.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"A high-profile assassination, which has never really been al-Qaida's style until now..."
Was Ahmad Shah Massoud not a high profile assassination?
Did that assassination not take place 48 hours before the 9/11 attacks?
Very sad and disturbing times.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]A very brave person has been killed (and I could add here by God loving peaceful people) so please folks could we just take a step back, salute the girl, wonder how many more have to go that route, and then look for the ignorant superstitious people of all faiths and try to just softly tell them where they go wrong?.....just an idea
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Who did it? What a stupid question, we know the killer. The killer of Benazir Bhutto was born 1400 years ago and has been responsible for more slaughter than anyone else in the history of mankind.
An assassin's bullets followed by a suicide blast; "chanted slogans against Musharraf" coming from the crowd ... is anybody surprised? We've become inured to suicide blasts, assassinations. Our papers treat them as natural disasters that could have been prevented with proper warning. Over the centuries we've had proper warning after proper warning; we've seen battle after battle, slaughter after slaughter - all in the cause of an ancient warlord's creed. Pockets of slaughter and other iniquities brought by followers of that creed happen daily at places across the globe; yet most go unreported - censored - by our politically correct news services. Only when undeniable blasts of brutality occur - teddy bear dramas, rape victim pardons, the assassinations of great leaders - do our papers find space among the mundane, insignificant stories of celebrity rehab or re-gifting woes to print carefully crafted announcements designed to further blind the reader as to the root cause of all these tragedies - 1400 years of tragedies: "Islamofascism."
Then we have politicians, like Tony Blair, making grand statements about this ancient creed; he called it "progressive" and "inclusive" and then accepting a different creed - Catholicism - as his faith; clearly proving his words to be nothing but typical political rhetoric designed to placate and appease the masses of true believers and befuddle the rest of us. Perhaps he is right about this creed being "progressive" and "inclusive"; like a "progressive" and "inclusive" cancer it has progressed through about 1/5th of the world's population and looks to include - by the commands of its version of God - the rest of the planet's population as well.
Until that bizarre ancient creed, that unnatural disaster, has been thoroughly debunked, expurgated and expunged from among the earth's tranquil creeds that co-exist in peace and harmony, or, as is commanded by that creed's version of God, becomes our world's future generation's only law, don't expect lasting peace anywhere in the Middle-East or rest of the world.
If not for "Islamofasism" Benazir Bhutto would have lived a natural life; and so would thousands who still die in this day and millions of others who have died over the centuries.
"... a war of more than twelve hundred years has already raged. That war is yet flagrant; nor can it cease but by the extincture of that imposture, which has been permitted by Providence to prolong the degeneracy of man." John Quincy Adams
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Bloody hell, this article was quick: am I the only one to wonder how the editorial meetings for this sort of thing go? How much of this was already written and how soon after she was announced as dead was this article commissioned?
Perhaps it's slightly absurd to wonder about the exact timing - is e.g. an hour after she's died "worse" than 3 or 7 or a day, etc. - but I still find this slightly disturbing.
Or maybe it's just me?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"Fair point, Cantonaldo.
We should all be paying tribute to a very brave woman. She knew her life was in danger but she never looked back and respect is due."
Thank you. Yes, she was well aware of the risks and was a woman who put her life on the line in order to bring democracy to Pakistan. This is a tragic event and i fear for the people of Pakistan. My thoughts are with you all at this time.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"Was Ahmad Shah Massoud not a high profile assassination?
Did that assassination not take place 48 hours before the 9/11 attacks?"
That's true and disturbing.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I think we may be making a good guess by assuming that Bhutto knew what she was up against. As Burke wrote:
"Bhutto herself, talking to me two weeks ago, spoke of the hardcore of senior military officers, spies, retired generals and others who she believed ran a shadow state in Pakistan with strong Islamic militant sympathies and who wanted to destroy her. She constantly made such claims that were often exaggerated, but they did contain a kernel of truth".
Henri-Levi, in his analysis of the murder of Daniel Pearl came to believe that the Pakistan secret service (ISS) does run a shadow state, and is hand-in-glove with Islamic extremists of all types, including El Qaeda, the Taliban, and the extremists filling the Pakistani madrasas. It appears that Musharraf, love him or hate him, stands opposed to them, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he was at least indirectly involved in this assassination.
The prospect of a nuclear armed Taliban/Iranian style government in a country bordering an apprehensive, nuclear armed India, with its own 400 million Moslem minority is truly a nightmare.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]JennM
Comment No. 1014218
December 27 17:13
FRA "Musharraf is my first suspect. The taliban, my second choice - but she supported them when she was in power and her change of heart wouldn't bother them much unless they were afraid of what she'd do if she got elected - - - which says Volumes about their relation with Musharraf"
he is also my choice of the prime suspect for Ms Bhutto's murder!
My money is on the army via the ISI. She'd recently been making noises about limiting their power. I imagine the generals took that calmly.
It's hard to know what to think really. All the major candidates are appalling in one way or another and Bhutto on past performances was no different.
Let's remember that in no way could she be compared to a genuine democrat like Aung San Suu Kyi, who said "It is not power that corrupts but fear. Fear of losing power corrupts those who wield it and fear of the scourge of power corrupts those who are subject to it". Appropriate words for today, I think.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]this being the guardian, then it was either the americans or the jews, and to say anything otherwise is to be a racist neocon warmonger.
the guardian is my lefty pseudo-intellectual tabloid of choice.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I'm with Cantanando, CzarnyKot and others on this: For goodness sake, just let it rest for a day or two. I wonder whether Jason Burke had this prewritten. Some journalists just have no boundaries with anything. Regardless of the politics, this isn't the time to jump straight into the old Sherlock Holmes outfit.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@Voland
Interesting comment. Very quick and sharp analysis i thought. However i have one problem with it and i am hoping you can help me with it. Given that the US is stuck steadfast in Iraq and Afghanistan, do they have the means to "stabilise" the country by depositing troops there? Are you saying that given the sufficient amount of arm twisting they could get the UN to do it for them? If it is, then could they guarantee their objectives are met? Is it possible they could contract the job to private mercenary armies to secure particular strategic areas of Pakistan?
My immediate impression was that the US was stuck between neither wanting a de-stabilised Pakistan that would make Afghanistan (and the region more generally) more difficult to control: or a functioning democracy that seeks a domestic and foreign policy on its own terms
i eagerly await your response
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death.
Voland {4:47 PM } gives a more believable analysis.
Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, has a very close relationship with US intelligence agencies as did those, mentioned towards the end of Burke's piece, who tried to blow up the Twin Towers.
Strangely, for all his apparent expertise, Burke never seems to notice these connections.
"The Role of Pakistan's Military Intelligence (ISI) in the September 11 Attacks":
Who killed her?
Islamists, Musharaf, the climate of terror nurtured by the coalition of the willing.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Who killed her?
Islamists, Musharaf, the climate of terror nurtured by the Axes of the Willing.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"This is now surely only the time to salute a brave woman..."
-Oh, what nonsense!
She had her fingers in the till before, and she came back home because with Mushy looking on the way out, she thought she could get her fingers in the till again!
And them some hyper-Islamic nut-job killed her.
Because he was not as "grateful" for her taking over from Mushy as some people might have expected him to be.
- She looks like Nana Mouskouri!
But she wasn't. Pakistan has two kinds of leader since independence; Generals, and thieves. They surely do indeed "deserve better", but they also deserve better than spurious flattery for this "sadly" dead old crook.
And if you think I'm wrong, you just wait until you learn what her relatives have inherited.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]WHO CARES!!!!!!
She was told to stay away.....and what did she do.....????
As soon as Pakistan moves into the 18th century, everything will be fine.
Happy New Year....nothin like the crazy '08.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Rogue elements in the ISI with sympathies for the neo-Taliban in the tribal region. I think it is pretty obvious. Bhutto's father was murdered by Generla Zia who went on to arm, train and fund the mujahedin in the 1980s. This movement spawned Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, this movement has now spread to Pakistan. Bhutto pledged to fight both the Islamist extremists and rogue military/ISI figures. This assassination like the previous attempt in Karachi was planned by a combination of these two groups. The fact that it was in the ISI-Military laden city of Rawalpindi shows the ISI-Military guilt. The method - suicide bombing - shows the Islamist influence. Having said that I agree with previous comments, this is a very sad moment and plenty more speculation will come later. http://new-threats.blogspot.com/
This tragic event is being used once again to justify the knee-jerk anti-Muslim sentiments that issue forth regularly from some quarters. For those of you suggesting that Islam has a monopoly on death, destruction, and war, read a few history books. "Christians" have been slaughtering each other and others for many centuries. Just look at the 20th Century (unless you're suggesting that Hitler and Stalin and their followers were adherents of the Islamic faith).
If you seriously think that western societies have spent the last couple of millennia living in perfect harmony, and Muslims are the root of all violence and conflict in the world, you are sadly deluded.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]While condoling the death of Ms. Bhutto with some commenters here (Cantanando, CzarnyKot, olching, and others), I would like to differ on eulogizing nonsense that is also being written about her ("put her life on the line in order to bring democracy to Pakistan", "She knew her life was in danger but she never looked back" etc.). Bhutto was as corrupt as anyone could get, not above using religious extremism to her own ends, and it would not be surprising if she was guilty of ordering political assassinations herself while in power. She agreed to provide a veil to the farce of "democracy" enacted by Mush-Bush combo, perhaps in return for further looting of Pakistan. However, be that as it may, her death is a sad event.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Strongman and Mr. Dismal provide many chuckles for the paranoid delusions they offer here on CIF. Thanks, guys. The author of the article is wrong about one thing. The people who were behind the assassination know who did it. Al Qaeda has already claimed responsibility, although this source has not yet been verified. Perhaps it was Syria, they've been blowing up politicians and generals in terrorist attacks in Lebanon to influence that election. Maybe it was Iran. They've been providing IED's and weapons to various islamic extremist factions in Iraq that have blown up many people, mosques, etc. Maybe it was Palestinians. They are well known to blow themselves up at given the chance. Maybe it's the Thai Muslim separtists in the southern 3 provinces. They're blowing up people every day too. Interesting parallels here. Strongman, Mr. Dismal and ad nauseum CIF leftists will want to blame the US for all of these "muslims", (really, CIA backed Jews looking for oil) in all of this. Call a spaded a spade. These people are acting in the name of a very intolerant religion and believe they now have 72 virgins at their disposal. Of course, the truth gets in the way of all of the anti american viewpoints that are regularly found here. That's ok. Most people still live in the real world.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@Endgame:
Very good point. I think the key issue here is to differentiate between "America" as a nation and the people calling the geopolitical shots there - let's call them BushCo for laughs ;-). BushCo have clearly demonstrated that they have an agenda which is only loosely allied with American national interests - and indeed from some points of view (Israel, economy, climate change) _could_ be said to run counter to them. In this instance, I do think BushCo are still broadly following the stated PNAC goals - broad spectrum dominance across the Middle East, and securing of the oil resources of the Middle East and Caspian Basin regions. Pakistan, by its adjacency and strategic positioning on both counts, is critical.
However, I think it's possible that BushCo could be redeploying their wargamed solutions at the moment. Iran was clearly the next target, but they are being forced to adapt on the fly. Russia is making plenty of bellicose gestures right now, and with the economy on the verge, some kind of irrevocable commitment is probably necessary sooner before it becomes politically unviable later.
I think the scenario would run something like this: given Pakistan has nukes, no right minded person will want civil war there. Consequently, UN interference is almost certain, and would almost directly line up with BushCo's short-term goals - the securing of Iran's eastern flank. This would also have the side effect of linking in propaganda terms the fear of "terrorists" and "nukes", which will make continued international efforts easier to pull off.
I agree that a stable Pakistan was desirable whilst the target was Iran. Given that target has changed, that is no longer the case: the immediate target is now Pakistan.
As far as private armies are concerned, I think this is the shape of things to come for BushCo. You can draw a profitable analogy with the Roman Empire here: when Rome moved from Republic to Empire, the forms of previous government were maintained, but a new, unoffical administration was created alongside which reported directly to the Emperor. Private armies are far less accountable and politically much less of a burden than state ones, especially conscripted state ones, which is BushCo's only other option right now. Opening the US borders to immigration will allow a massive increase in the size of the armed forces, both official and private, and possibly their hope is to use the monies from regional resources and reconstruction contracts in Pakistan to finance this - I don't know enough about business entanglements there to comment right now.
Interesting times, though. What do you think?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CiF does a good job. It brings people together. It helps me and halgeel84 share thoughts with each other - and more.
Right now I'm not sure that I understand what's just happened in Pakistan anything like as well as halgeel84 understands it. I hate the fact that Benazir Bhutto has been killed. But I don't know who killed her or why they killed her.
I know that I'm in love with halgeel84 and that I respect her opinions. I'm a bit in love with other posters too - but halgeel84 has impressed me more than anyone else. I ranted earlier against the Jerusalem religions - and I did so honestly - and I worry that halgeel84 may hold that against me - because I don't want her to hold anything against me.
I have nothing but contempt for the Belt Way People who seemed to me to have seen the Katrina disaster not as a challenge - as they should have - to help their fellow human beings - but as an opportunity to disposess their poorest neighbours - and I say - if that's what America is all about - then it's time the rest of us waged total war against America until America ceases to exist.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"The killer of Benazir Bhutto was born 1400 years ago and has been responsible for more slaughter than anyone else in the history of mankind."
Actually, Zoroaster was responsible for the concept of a god of absolute good, with its corollaries that (a) whatever is done in his name must be good, and (b) anyone who opposes him is a servant of his opposite, the god of absolute evil. This has proved to be possibly the most virulent meme ever spawned.
The ancient Persians seem to have been sophisticated enough to handle it, but when Moses picked it up and passed it on to a mob of runaway slaves it became a plague that has been spreading through humanity ever since. Mohammed was just one of many dangerous carriers.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]badleeroy - Spot on. Unfortunately, I suspect there are many more postings from twisted, hate filled nutjobs to come.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Sorry, but although I'd never vote for him I'd prefer a social night out with George Bush Jr to one with Halgeel any time.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Yes, Dave, thems my sentiments too.
It really is like watching a murder all over again to read the filth, posing as commentary, by those who beguile their worthless time spewing out hatred of Islam.
As to those, like "jihadisbad", who seize upon the opportunity to blame what they call "leftists" they simply remind us that Ms Bhutto, (to whose relatives all decent people send their condolences), was not only a muslim but greatly influenced by the socialist tradition.
I was no supporter of hers, and I detested her new friends in the west, but her death, like those of dozens of other victims of these insane wars, sponsored in Washington and acceded to by cowards everywhere, is greatly lamented.
@mervynreeves, post 1014279,
no it is not just you, you are spot on. It is all very suspect to me too. Not least the message already, that we may never know the killers, with the phrase 'of course' used twice in the opening words.
It is going to be sold to as as 'one of those things', like the deaths of Olaf Palme, Pim Fortuyn, Princess Di, even JFK; even while this body is warm, we are treated to 'we'll probably never know, lets move on'. The grieving period immediately skips to 'lets move on,' thats the way it always seems to work.
But I know that if a populist politicain was assasinated in Russia, then there would be a tsunami of Western uproar, inference, and allegation; the 'lets move on' stage would never come. I suspect a western stake in this assassination, regardles of any complicity.
the washington post has reported that the US is set to increase its presence of special forces in Pakistan to train the Pakistani "counter insurgency techniques". This was reported before the assasination of Bhutto.
Maybe that helps to answer my question.......
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]badleeroy - said:
"Strongman, Mr. Dismal and ad nauseum CIF leftists will want to blame the US for all of these "muslims" ...
I normally blame the UK and then the US ... and Israel last. It's simple. We've done bad things and are continuing to do bad things and we have to sort that out first.
Other people are doing bad things too - but Christian fundamentalists are much more likely to do me serious harm than Moslems - so I fear Christian fundamentalists more than I fear Moslems.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Voland
France did it! If they can kill Greenpeace activists then why not?
Its as viable as your theory
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]may she rest in peace....
a very sad day for Pakistan.
assassination or just public accountability Pakistani style...?
So the west's favourite bent politician wont get elected. I suspect that if Bhutto had been male this probably wouldn't have even made the headlines.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Give me a corrupt politician over a military dictator or a religious fanatic any day of the week. Sadly too many people the world over prefer the false sense of 'order' and rigour that anti-democratic movements bring. People will suffer wherever this tendency is allowed to prevail. If the January elections still go ahead I hope there will be enough Pakistanis who vote for the democratic politicians, however dirty their hands may be. The alternative should fill us all with fear.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Most Pakistanis I've come across have said when asked that they thought she was a massive crook.
Though maybe she did turn out to have had a sense of noblesse oblige aswell.Maybe.
I don't understand all the venom directed at Jason Burke.A fair few of the commonly held perspectives about Al Qaeda originated with his 2002 book.Before that, everyone was looking for the hydra's head, were they not?He was the one who said it didn't exist.
Anyway,I just want to say that if we need cheering up on a miserable day like today, jihadisbad's 'I hope the muslims love their children too' style Sting-a-thon is up near the top of the thread.It really is fucking barmy, true to form.
Well done, my friend.That really cheered me up - and HAPPY EID TO YOU, JIHADISBAD, ON THESE WONDERFUL AND HOLY FAST DAYS!!!God bless Mohammed and all his warrior angels.Amen.
I liked this comment so much I pasted it again & agaIN & again & again ....... expressed perfectly
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
Jason Burke has repeatedly shown himself to be little more than an establishment mouthpiece and a promoter of al Qaida myths so it's unlikely that he can provide much genuine insight into Bhutto's death
etc etc
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]So what harm are Christian fundamentalists going to do to you MrDismal and which church is it of which you are particularly afraid?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Is there any compelling reason to disbelieve the al-Qaida claim to be responsible? It makes perfect sense: she had been likely to win the election and she was a definite US ally vs. al-Qaida.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]sebastiao
USA Is there any compelling reason to disbelieve the al-Qaida claim to be responsible? It makes perfect sense: she had been likely to win the election and she was a definite US ally vs. al-Qaida.
Sebastiao, are you kidding? Please understand your audience, here. I come to CIF for entertainment purposes to read mr. dismal, strongman, voland, etc. for their incredible insight into matters that are beyond comprehension for the rest of us. If al aqaida did it, which, you know, is just a CIA backed tool used to propogate the US's imperialistic oil driven policies, it would only make perfect sense. Why, who else could have done it? Voland, Strongman, Dismal?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Just look at the despicable Left, dancing on Ms. Bhutto's grave. This is one indication of why the Socialist/Leftist political forces in Europe have such great difficulty winning power (even in France, for heaven's sake).
As I noted in another thread...Benazir may have had an ego the size of Asia, no doubt about that.
But, as a worldly, educated woman, she was a far better bet to modernize her country than the honour-killing, gang-raping, suicide-bombing cro-magnons who currently hold sway there.
The Left should be utterly ashamed of this display of gloating. You may now get your wish - a giant Taliban nation of 150 million people. What fun!! And since they wouldn't dare set their sights eastward (India will not be squeamish about crushing them) guess which way they'll be heading?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@dave24; " For those of you suggesting that Islam has a monopoly on death, destruction, and war,"
OK, are you just spouting off or can you actually name someone who said that here? If so who, and where is the actual quote? We're talking about a specific incident and for some reason you waltz along and start spouting nonsense that no one here (nor anyone less than certifiable) has actually said. Can you really not give your biases and nonsense a rest even for a few hours?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]It could be any number of Islamic nutcases. Sadly, they seem to flourish and blossom like leaves on the tree in Pakistan.
Why is that, when India is considerably more pragmatic, I wonder?
Who killed Salvador Allende in Chili way back in the early seventies (the first 9/11)? How Zia Ul Haque, the former Pakistani Military Dictator died? No one can say for sure, who killed John F Kennedy in the early sixties.Probably this stuation is likely to happen again in Pakistan in case of the assassination of Benasir Bhutto.Suicide killing during an election campaign,took the life of Rajiv Gandhi,former Prime Minister of India,Pakistan's neighbouring country.His mother Indira Gandhi was assassinated while she was India's Prime Minister. Such things have happened in and around Pakistan,Nepal,Bangladesh,Nepal and Sri Lanka.Incase of Benasir Bhutto,the suspicion can logically fall on the Talibans, Al Qaeda or Pakistan President Parvin Musharref.Although there is believable evidence against none of them,the involvement of any of them cannot be ruled out.Pakistan is being pulled strongly by the gravity of terrorism.No one will be surprised if Parvin Mushrref also faces the same fate.
"Is there any compelling reason to disbelieve the al-Qaida claim to be responsible? It makes perfect sense: she had been likely to win the election and she was a definite US ally vs. al-Qaida."
Primarily, "al Qaida" is a tool of US foreign policy.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@badleeroy:
"Why, who else could have done it? Voland, Strongman, Dismal?"
Why, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were being sarcastic? :-)
Actually, you're asking the wrong question. It doesn't matter WHO did it. The question to ask, as always, is CUI BONO. Who benefits? In case you're still incredulous, and think it, like the Reichstag, Pearl Harbour, JFK, and the Gulf of Tonkin, is just a "conspiracy theory", the answer to this question will become abundantly clear in the next few days and weeks.
Glad we're all keeping you entertained though. Always happy to oblige ;-)
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]peitha - I would refer you to posts above by AnastasiaUSA (now deleted by moderators) and AppleOgia. jihadisbad makes similar points in a more subtle way. Biases and nonsense indeed.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]She said many times after the last attempt on her life that she felt it was members of the current Pakistani administration who were trying to kill her,not many people pointing this out I feel ,just loads of hot air about extremists
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]--MrDismal,
hello my dear poet!
Go and see Coonor Foley's latest blog at cif
Weaselmeister - asked
"So what harm are Christian fundamentalists going to do to you MrDismal and which church is it of which you are particularly afraid?"
I fear the Scientoligists
And I fear the Mormons
And I fear the Evangelists
And I fear the Catholics
But I don't fear the Anglicans
I happen to be a confirmed anglican
Although following my confirmation
I suddenly became an atheist
These things happen ...
Christian fundamentalists might start the third world war with nuclear weapons at the forefront of the war and if I was in a position to stop them from doing this I would do so. I see Christian fundamentalists as being powerful and irrational and I see them as my enemies. I see Moslems, by comparison, as being relatively peaceful.
I see myself as someone who has dedicated his life, long ago, to his people, and I am surprised that, so far, my life has not been used and taken, as cannon fodder, for that is what my history teacher told me I was, when I was young, and as I get older what my history teacher told me seems ever more true, they just brought me up to be cannon fodder ...
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]"Just look at the despicable Left, dancing on Ms. Bhutto's grave..."
CanadianJew, could you do us all a favour and point out where this is actually happening? I'm on the left, and I feel no urge to "gloat", and it's hardly been a characteristic of this thread.
Salma Yaqoob, a very lefty Brummie councillor, was on Sky News earlier today bemoaning the killing of MS Bhutto. She could barely contain her tears.
Nobody of the 'Left' is "dancing on Ms. Bhutto's grave", you bigoted fool. Try reacting to the world as it is, not some dreamland comprised of your anti-leftist prejudices.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Sorry but I think I am going to be the first to state the obvious: what a god-awful country it must be if when you don't like someone, you snuff them out. Not in any surgical manner, but just by throwing a great big heap of fiery shit over as many people as possible. The cowards way. The bestial unintelligent and unskilled way. The main stream message to the world way.The trained way. The smoothed by authorities all the way through way, some suggest.
Musharraf et al and his supporters at home and at abroad if they care at all should know that they have once again shown their statesmanship to suck. Apart from looking smart in an impeccable uniform, we have to assume that he is either a monster or an incompetent( to paraphrase so many ).
How much of the 3bill they don't know what they spent on went on this sort of filthy behaviour?
Mr Dismal; "I fear the evangelists". Which one? Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? They're a pretty scary bunch, but John's the dangerous one: his sign is the eagle, and you know what that means...
Do you mean the evangelicals?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I'm off to play some jazz now - but - I wish halgeel84 was here too and we were having a musical evening together - and I wish there was a bit more "looking at things through other people's eyes going on" - for example - how about trying to imgaine that you were Bhutto and that you're about to be killed - I can do that - I can imagine that - and I look down on people that can't do that sort of imagining - and I admire Bhutto's bravery.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I saw a report on her several weeks ago. Nothing new on the threat. She knew her life was in real danger so she added a few more guards and holed up in her headquarters. Essentially, she chose to remain a sitting duck in what is reality an open-aired building from what I saw. I understand commitment, but it would appear that she had a death wish of sorts. It seems to me that she could have done more to stay alive even if the whole of Islam were against her. I don't have any evidence, but maybe the bankers did it? After all, they are in to almost everything to make a buck.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]DELETED BY MODERATOR, Deleted by moderator. GEE, We all know who these insane lefties are blaming even if their posts get deleted. Of course i am sure there is a little variation in their theme based on their paranoia. So i say based on the insanity of some leftists that they would propose the following
"interests" are responsible for Bhutto's assassination--
1. Jews (A.K.A Zionists) Who else? Since they have been blamed for everything since 1 A.D. Why not blame them for this? THough in this case the motive might be tricky to prove but im sure the Crypto-stalinists of the world will figure it out.
2. Mushariff - Well, he is a dictator in the employ of the neo-cons and the Zionists right? he's just trying to make the Poor widdle Throat slitters look bad by making it look like some Islamists did it, but we know that suicide bombings are not thier "thing", everyone knows that secular thugs hired by the CIA are much more likely to commit suicide bombings.
3. CIA-MI5-MI6-Mossad-Alphabettispaghetti-delta-7
These forces of darkness and "chaos", who are just trying to make Islam look bad, are also a likely suspect! However they are not entites in themselves, they really work for their masters. You know, The "shadows" from babylon 5? Aliens? Get with the program people!
4. Bush-Cheney. Since they are the other half of the "ziocon" equation there really is no more to be said about that. But i suggest that all people who know the "troof" and like to "speak Troof to pawa" better be careful what they say. Ron Paul and George Galloway might want to beef up their security detail lest remote controlled
planes piloted by zionists crash into their water closets while they are using it!!! AHHHHH!!
OF course whomever did it the point is that is was a "false flag" operation, that much is clear! My own theory is that this "person" was really a remote controlled robot dressed up to look like a Muslim. The robot was made in ISRAEL. But of course you already knew that.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Friendlyflier
"I don't understand all the venom directed at Jason Burke.A fair few of the commonly held perspectives about Al Qaeda originated with his 2002 book.Before that, everyone was looking for the hydra's head, were they not?He was the one who said it didn't exist."
They were pretending to look for it.
Perhaps it's more than the hydra's head that does not exist.
As we picture Benazir Bhutto terrible death let's remember that our whole, oily way of life depends on the murder of innocents:
"No Bravery
A nation blind to their disgrace.":
A 4 Minute Video. Click to view:
I do love the suggestion from some of the right wingers on this place that the "leftists" (we're some big international conspiracy now, just ask Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter) will be rejoicing in Bhutto's death. I don't personally rejoice in anyone's death, but Bhutto was little more than a US backed puppet who was forced to leave in the first place for being corrupt. She was only allowed a look in because the continual propping up of a military dictator by the West became untenable, particularly given his inability to control militants and his sparring with his own judiciary. Bhutto was, for PR purposes, a better choice, bringing "Democracy" to Pakistan, replacing one elite with another.
The main US reason for wanting to keep a lid on things is the nuclear issue, and of course the strategic placement of Pakistan relative to the Caspian area and the Middle East in terms of establishing some degree of control over the energy reserves located there.
The thing that strikes me most is how little Bhutto's death affects anything, Musharref will doubtless call off the election, or if it continues he will win it, and we will be back to the same situation we've been in for the past nine years. Bhutto was nothing more than distraction, I doubt anyone took her preaching about democracy seriously, since it is unlikely that if she took power that any other major parties would emerge to challenge hers, particularly once Musharraf had vanished.
But apparently some reactionary elements in Pakistan took offense to Bhutto and launched said assasination, either that or Musharraf wanted power for a bit longer. That said, the total impact is minimal, since the same government machinery would continue to exist regardless of the figurehead, and Bhutto doesn't seem to have been any more a solution to Pakistan's problems than Musharraf.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]truthsux what are you scared of? the truth will set you free
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]'Just look at the despicable Left, dancing on Ms. Bhutto's grave.'
Just pointed out she's a renowned crook.
I didn't give a shit when Diana died.Probably another heroine of yours.I prefer people who effect good in the world.
'This is one indication of why the Socialist/Leftist political forces in Europe have such great difficulty winning power (even in France, for heaven's sake).'
Those frogs, eh!
They did have 40 years of socialist goverment, more or less.
That had it's fair share of corruption too.
Those humans, eh?!What are they like?
'As I noted in another thread...Benazir may have had an ego the size of Asia, no doubt about that.'
So you were dancing on her grave aswell, then?
Hypocrite.At least I never criticised other people for doing what I did.
But then you are a rightwinger, so it's more or less written into your psychological makeup.
'But, as a worldly, educated woman, she was a far better bet to modernize her country than the honour-killing, gang-raping, suicide-bombing cro-magnons who currently hold sway there.'
Well, there's no denying that.
Except for ...well,...she didn't deal with any of these ugly, backwards types, did she?You know, in order to barter herself into power?She didn't tolerate the knowledge of really bad things being done by people she'd struck deals with in order to get herself into power did she?
Lawks-a-lordy!Suck back those tears.
I do however agree with what you say about despicable lefties.That may surprise you.
One of my heroes is on telly tonight.
He was a freedom fighter against Stalin in the 1940s and very effective he was too, by all accounts.
After the war, the US government smuggled him out of dirty, anti-semitic and a by all accounts despicably leftist Europe and helped him to continue his wonderful work against the despicable left by giving him a job in the CIA managing an anti-despicable-leftist campaign in South America, where countries like Bolivia were saved from the despicably leftwing governments they had voted in (probably by mistake, given their despicable leftist stupidity) and given the choice of decent, economically sound military dictatorships where the respectable, comfortably off middle classes, protected from the despicable-leftist poor who they saw shot and tortured by the right thinking governments that had come to save them from the despicable left.He also wanted to create a new reich in the Andes, free of obnoxious leftists.
That hero was called Klaus Barbie.Do you know him, Canadian Jew?
You and him, eh?
Actually, truthsux, the Leftists appear to be happy that Bhutto is dead because this eliminates one of the major impediments to fundamentalist Islamist/Taliban rule in Pakistan, a dream of every Lefty in Europe.
Perhaps, if one assigns responsibility to Israel, this was Israel's way of courting the Euro-Leftist establishment?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]--Mr Dismal;
thank you so much! I know we will meet and very soon at a Jazz concert in London or Liverpool [two cities I will be spenting much of my coming summer].
now, I can assure I will have met similar as that of Ms Bhutto if I was in Somalia right now.
that is why I asked you to look at Conor Foley's latest blog and you could see it for yourself why I think this way.
MrDismal wrote:
"I fear the Scientoligists
And I fear the Mormons
And I fear the Evangelists
And I fear the Catholics"
But don't you see Scientology is not Christian, Mormonism is polytheistic and not Christian, the Catholic Church, while Christian, does not adhere to the "fundamentals" from which "Fundamentalism" was named and while some Evangelicals are Fundamentalist others are not. In fact many Fundamentalists are pacifist and apolitical.
"Christian fundamentalists might start the third world war with nuclear weapons at the forefront of the war and if I was in a position to stop them from doing this I would do so. I see Christian fundamentalists as being powerful and irrational and I see them as my enemies. I see Moslems, by comparison, as being relatively peaceful."
Christian fundamentalists might start the third world war bur they are as likely to refuse to serve in ant government on the other hands there are a number of powerful muslims who would see the bomb as being something which can be used for the benefit of their religion. Would you like any quotations.
Which Christian fundamentalists are powerful and which are irrational. No doubt you will say Creationists. I used to work with an atheist who one day told me that anyone who believed in creation was stupid. When I asked him if he believed that everything had come about by chance from inanimate objects he thought for a few seconds and said, "No, that's even mor stupid." Irrationality is in the eye of the beholder. Let me mention three names of people who you would probably say were Christian Fundamentalists and you can tell me if they were irrational people: Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday and James Bowman Lindsay.
Over to you.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]The suicide bomb is a wet dream for the shadowy assassin type. Bomb goes off, evidence destroyed - identity of killer likely destroyed. Bomb goes off - 'you know who to blame! It's the Al-Qaeda umbrella group of course!' - but is it? Bomber sometimes need not even know he is the suicide bomber - 'Ok Mr Mohammhed, would you deliver this truck full of confidential goods to the following address at three thirty? I will pay you five times the amount, you will! Great!'.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CanadianJew, hello, season's greetings. You're distressed about Benazir Ali Butto's death, like many, many on the left and on the right. And you're making a fool of yourself with your comments on the left in Europe of which you obviously know very little. I'll tell you one thing: you can't appraise the left in Europe by taking a look at a few comments on cif. So cool it amigo.
I direct you to FriendlyFlier's post to me for Exhibit A.
speaking of whom...
1) Why do you say I'm a right-winger? Yes, I oppose the neo-fascist underpinnings of the current state of Trendy Leftism (capital T, capital L), but that hardly makes me a right-winger.
If anything, I'm somewhat of a classical libertarian and social moderate and probably would have fit in quite well in the Euro-liberal circles of 30-40 years ago.
The modern Left has usurped the word "liberal" and distorted it out of any meaning it once had.
2) I don't think stating that a rich woman from a powerful family had a large ego equates to me dancing on her grave. My point is that anyone in her situation would have probably had a similar ego. I also do not deny that her family has been involved in corruption which may or may not have been tied back to her.
In a country like Pakistan, is corruption REALLY the most important issue?
Far more important to ask:
Which Pakistani leader is most likely to put an end to honour killings and the despicable culture in which they thrive?
Which Pakistani leader is most likely to build schools for girls, allow birth control and family planning education, and make Pakistani girls believe that they don't have to be slaves for men?
Which Pakistani leader is most likely to build bridges with India, Iran, and other regional powers and decrease tension?
The answer was Ms. Bhutto, and now with her death, all Pakistan has to look forward to is a showdown between Islamist nutcases and military despotism.
3) Bhutto was only in power for relatively short stints in the past and she had to face unyielding pressure from the misogynist cro-magnon feudal lords who opposed the reforms she attempted to bring to her country. WE'll never know what she could have done if she had been freer to put policies in place without fear of being ousted or assassinated.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Will someone please explain just what DID BHUTTO DO FOR PAKISTAN? NOT A BLOODY THING. List one blessed positive thing she did for Pakistan - just one.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CZARNY -- Good post as usual.
ILLEGAL COMBATANT: Well said. best post on this thread.
Mr. DISMAL -- Calling for war on America from the safety of your chair? What a cretin. My guess is when we discover who murdered Bhutto, it will be a little worm, just like you.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I do not know exactly who killed her but I do know that 72 virgins just got busy.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]There are many with reason to want Bhutto gone, but the shooting/suicide bomb combo tends to point towards the islamists rather than a secular opponent.
I for one don't believe that Musharraf was involved. If he wanted her dead I'm sure a nice little plane crash or other suitable "accident" could have been arranged.
suicide bomb: proves that CIA mind control works thats all, no possible link to islamists there. to say otherwise is to be a racist zionist evil warmongering neocon.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]What I find particularly troubling is that this assassination was preventable. Bhutto was killed by the same kind of assassin, in the same way that has been done for centuries. Couple this with the fact that there have been repeated attempts to kill her, the most recent being by a 15 year old boy a few weeks ago carrying a small bomb, that the obvious question is why was she allowed to go through a crowd standing openly in a car, almost challenging assassins to kill her?
Why would it have been so hard to at least, if she insisted on being in crowds, of having her in a armored vehicle (which I think was the case) but also with the additional precaution of a bullet proof transparent shield which would have enabled her to be seen without chancing a shooting? I mean, this is basic stuff.
So, while Burke may be right in saying that we might never know the killers, we do know one thing and that this that those responsible for her security, including Bhutto herself, failed to apply the most basic security measures thereby assuring that even if this attempt had failed, it would have eventually succeeded at some point.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
CanadianJew, perhaps you were accused of being a right-winger because you spout crazy right wing conspiracy garbage. That's my guess. What exactly do you hope to achieve by stating that the left in Europe (and presumably in Canada) is happy about Bhutto's assassination? Do you think that by saying over and over again that the Left supports Islamic extremism that you will make it true? Do you believe that by asserting that support for Israel is the only way to defend liberty, that others will support Israel? I am confused by your strategy, but I can say that I find your insinuations, your lies and your nationality to be insulting.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Ulysses31
It did not take to long - "no possible link to islamists there. to say otherwise is to be a racist zionist evil warmongering neocon." Interesting how this delusional conspiracy theorist is trying to prevent any objections to his diabolical outburst. So, do not blame "islamists" (no matter what the facts are) because if you do then you are "a racist zionist evil warmongering neocon" - STUPID.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Sir.......the woman has only been dead for less than 12 hours and Burke starts his games. For a person who claims to know a lot about this region he sure has cast his net far and wide. He may as well include the man on the moon as a suspect. Have you seen how he blames only the obvious yet fails to include those most likely to have sponsored this heinous act with the most to gain?
Burke has no credibility.
I don't know why I had you down as a reactionary.It might have been the way you opened your post with the phrase 'Just look at the despicable Left, dancing on Ms. Bhutto's grave.'
This is not a black and white situation.The fact is she's dead, so making her out to be a saint wouldn't make any difference anyway.
The idea that some on the British left are in favour of handing extreme islamists nuclear weapons is just strange.Anyone, on any part of the political spectrum who would desire this,(and it's the CIA that has the form in handing Osama lots of explosives and whatnot?) would obviously be mentally or morally deficient.But I digress.
The idea that the modern left has betrayed reform, certainly in my part of the world, is an idea that has become more and more resonant in recent years, but not, I'd guess for the reasons you'd think.
The small 'l' liberal middle class (like you) signed on with Tony Baloney's Disneyfied UK cos it flooded the UK with cheap 3rd world Labour and meant their moneyed parents could keep those healthy share dividends coming for them to spend on funky, multiracial townie lifestyles, just like good little funky liberals.Whilst spitting venom at white backwards working class types, allotted a kind of humorous, Dickensian role in the minds of the Full Humans (see Noel Fielding).So much for enlightenment values of equality.
As for soft soaping misogyny, I don't.Neither homophobia.I don't tolerate it from anyone, least of all people who've barely been in my country 10 minutes and know next to shit about it's culture.I live with South Americans and work with Africans, one of whom told me that British society had gone off the rails since homosexuals had ceased being persecuted in the 60s.I told them in no uncertain terms what my country's values were and that as a beneficiary of those same values they should accept it or go somewhere they would feel less soiled.
What is your point about the betrayal of progressive values by the left, again?As opposed to their betrayal by soft liberals?
Attacking Muslims is not the same thing as attacking misogyny, as I'm sure Mrs. Bhutto would be the first to tell you.
You want to have a look at some of the countries that the great eagle of freedom has created in it's image around the Caribbean.
Then tell me the sexual abuse statistics are better in Haiti than in Afghanistan.That'd be some claim.
Weird piece. Without being too brutal, Ms Bhutto has barely been declared dead and you've already declared that it is nearly impossible to find out who killed her. Not only is it entirely possible to find out, the security services of certain nations may know already. They may have known before it happened. Just because YOU don't know seems a very small reason to declare it can't be known/found out. Even in the middle of the nineteenth century, the imperial police in India were pretty good at digging up plots and finding the culprits for murderous skulduggery.
Not only do I think it likely the culprits can be found, its a matter of urgency to do so. If Benazir Bhutto can be murdered, no public figure in Pakistani politics can escape these particular assassin despatchers until they are put out of business.
The question is rather why, and who is the most likely to gain from this murderous act, and what will the effects be.
The actual president has a lot to gain from this issue but as well a lot to loose. The USA population of America is the bigger looser of all and the EU, as this act is a blessing to GW Bush and his war on terror. Nothing could not have being more positive than start a new campaign on terror for the coming 2008 elections year.
On the other hand, it is a reaction to all the media meltdown that the west is currently experiencing as well, the pay back from the ill advice disaster of invading Afghanistan, Iraq and soon Iran. Washington must rethink what he does his own reason for existence and stop creating these main media peoples presidents such as Mr Sarkosy. No wonder the planet it has found a new target, French nationals, and Sarkosy following the US media advice is pouring oil to the fire. The west must change the way it operates, underestimating others and treating people as if they were just commodities. Sad that this planet demands spectacular disasters and regrettable events to wake up most minds. I hope that we shall be able to conquer this consciousness amnesia and liberate ourselves from the democratic dictatorships that afflict pour planet.
Nothing in my comment was misleading. It was the truth and that is precisely why it was deleted.
Get your heads out of the sand people.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Violence and death have been a part of the Pakistani political scene for many years -- what the press in the West tends to ignore is that Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for years. Then you have the "indigenous" Pakistanis against the "Muhajirs" (those who crossed the border from India to Pakistan after partition) who are also at each others throats.
If I am not mistaken, Musharraf is a "muhajir" and Bhutto is native, but also Shia.
Jason Burke is chief foreign correspondent at the Observer and author of Al-Qaeda: the True Story of Radical Islam
Jason Burke: "In many instances these militants and groups are connected to broader organisations and ideological currents within the hardline Deobandi school of Islam."
The Observer tends to be overly anti-Islam, and its chief foreign correspondent Jason Burke has an irrational hatred for Deobandis... so he has to bring them into this piece.
This Guardian story entitled "Indian Islamic group attacks BBC film for Bin Laden link" is interesting, especially the role of Deoband in the independence struggle (which pisses-off the colonialists no end) and also the last paragraph.
jihadisbad (Comment No. 1014129): "I'm sure there will be scores of columns by the apologists here for Islamists about how Muslims could never do such a thing, how it must be some Western plot, or the fault of the Jews. Smarten up, people, or those pictures could very well be downtown London or Paris or Barcelona within a few years..."
What do you know... defending the US/West even before anyone has pointed the finger?
Voland (Comment 1014359): "I think the scenario would run something like this: given Pakistan has nukes, no right minded person will want civil war there. Consequently, UN interference is almost certain, and would almost directly line up with BushCo's short-term goals - the securing of Iran's eastern flank. This would also have the side effect of linking in propaganda terms the fear of "terrorists" and "nukes", which will make continued international efforts easier to pull off.
I agree that a stable Pakistan was desirable whilst the target was Iran. Given that target has changed, that is no longer the case: the immediate target is now Pakistan."
Read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2220044,00.html
weneedanswers (Comment No. 1014500): "She said many times after the last attempt on her life that she felt it was members of the current Pakistani administration who were trying to kill her..."
So, Benazir Bhutto names a "someone" who is trying to kill her, and everyone believes her side of the story.
Princess Diana names a "someone" who is trying to kill her, and everyone calls it a conspiracy theory!
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]My condolences to the families affected by this latest obscene act of violence, and a heartfelt wish that events do not escalate to a purported civil war in Pakistan.
Whilst not agreeing with the positioning of Mrs Bhutto into power (i.e. a result of deal-making with Musharaff and external powers), and her less than exemplary record whilst in office in the 1990s, I must say I am appalled that differences appear to be settled in such lethal form.
I have utter sympathy for the poor innocents who were caught up in this and other bombings.
What I can't understand is how such action can be sanctioned in any form, Islamically speaking, as firstly, suicide is forbidden and secondly, it is an action that indiscriminately targets victims. There's a big difference between facing an invading soldier on the battlefield, and between running into a crowd and blowing oneself (and many others) up, the former would be justified by most people in the world. Also, if such action were looked at from an Islamic perspective, one cannot at all say whether or not the victims would have gone on to do great good in the future, and the suicide bomber has just removed the possibility of that ever happening.
Very sad for the people of Pakistan.
I wish also that one day, all the people in the more stable societies of the world tried to influence their governments to deal more equitably with other nations (sadly, freedom at home is not necessarily exported abroad). Unfortunately, it looks like sometimes people do not take action unless they are directly economically affected. Geo-politics, the need for energy security, reliance on fossil fuels, and many other factors come into this - but it feels like people just want to party and have a good time, and ignore what is happening in their names, by those meant to democratically represent them.
A brave woman has died, and some weird and unpleasant peope have started crowing about it. Surprise surprise. A bda day for democracy.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I don't think there is "little doubt" as to who killed Bhutto. Now that she is gone, elections can be postponed, and the junta's generals can play for time.
We've seen this kind of thing before. Pakistan is at a dangerous crossroads, and it's starting to look like Algeria in the 1990s.
Bhutto was perhaps killed by "Islamic extremists", but all these groups have been infiltrated and are manipulated by the ISI. This is what the Algerian secret services did with the GIA, and it is what Musharaff, or the people in the shadows who control him, are doing with the Taliban and 'Al-Qaeda' in Pakistan as well:
I am very concerned for the people of Pakistan. The next step is the use of 'Islamic terrorist groups' by the ISI to murder innocent civilians in massacres: a strategy designed to crush any attempt at the formation of an organized, united opposition against the military's rule (this was what Benazir's return represented). This is what the Algerian army did to the FIS party fifteen years ago; and I fear that it is what might happen if things continue to get out of hand.
It is interesting to observe India's reaction to all this:
The Indians know all too well who is behind 'Islamic fundamentalism' in Pakistan, and this assassination has sent off alarm bells at the highest state levels.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]FriendlyFlier:
I think there's a cognitive dissonance at play in the New Left of Europe (not as much so in North America, but I'm sure our far-left whackos will catch up to yours eventually :)). They are trying to square their parental movement's concerns for women, minorities, gays, the environment, animal rights, freedom of speech, with their newfound support for Islamism and opposition to America, Israel, and globalization.
And might I say, they're not doing a very good job of squaring that circle, and it seems that they've chosen the latter set of issues (love affair with Islamism, hatred of America) rather than the former set (women, gays, environment, etc).
As they've done so, they've left behind a fairly silent, and quite bewildered, set of classical small-l liberals. Sometimes these small-l liberals react furiosly - witness the late great Oriana Fallaci. But mostly, they stay quiet, and use their power as voters to ensure that the loony New Left never gets anywhere near political as long as they can help it.
It was easy for small-l liberals to admire Ms. Bhutto (while certainly not neglecting the corruption charges), but much harder for the New Left to do since to support Ms. Bhutto would be to support someone more inclined to turn Pakistan into a less hostile, anti-Western place.
There's an interesting new criticism of Ms. Bhutto - namely, that she was "arrogant" to hold rallies which she knew would put her supporters at risk.
That's an interesting dichotomy - either she was incredibly brave to have put her life at risk to dramatically, or she was incredibly selfish to not consider the lives of those around her. Which one trumps the other? Any thoughts?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Canuckistan:
Not sure what conspiracy theories or lies you think I'm spreading. I'll let you get back to me on that.
I'm sorry that you do not wish to share your nationality with me. That's fortunate, but you see Canada is a diverse country full of people with diverse views.
PS: Although I didn't vote for Stephen Harper the last two elections (opting for the Green Party), I probably will in the next one. I guess that makes me a right-winger in your book, but I look at things in a far more nuanced way.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]love it. my CIA mind control pisstake gets taken seriously: a sign of just how deranged some of the people on here are that it just blends in.
anyway, lets get back to blaming america/the jews.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Given Bhutto's profile I'd expect a claim of responsibility very soon. There is a suicide murderer who has been martyred killing a symbol of all that the fundamentalists despise; the desire to exclaim fulsome eulogies and broadcast the obligatory martyrdom video will surely be too great for whichever Islamofascist, misogynists planned her death.
America is a White Anglo Saxon, Protestant nation, Jews neither white, nor Protestant nor Anglo Saxon!'So, rule#1 American is NOT equals to the "Jews" nor are Jews equal to America. There are some Jews who ate American but all Jews are American.
once you get distinction clearly understood, then, go and ask your boss to give you a useful metaphor to spin at CIF!
"Finally, it is worth looking back at a previous attempt on Bhutto's life - not that of October 18 this year but back in the early 90s, when Ramzi Yousef, now in prison in America for trying to blow up the Twin Towers, attempted to assassinate her"
It's now well documented that the FBI was behind the Twin Towers attack in the early 90s. Don't believe me, take a look for yourself before posting knee-jerk reactions.
Jason is quite correct in saying we will never really know who was behind this assassination. After all, we are still no closer now to finding out who was really behind the Twin Tower attacks than we were on Sept 12 '01. And again we will probably never know.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
I think Bhutto was murdered by the same people who protect the al Qaida high command. Radical elements within the army/ISI.
These people have huge support and resources and are - as others have noted - running a shadow state in Pakistan.
Regardless of what one thought of Bhutto or her previous record as leader, her bravery and commitment to her country in recent months was exceptional. She did not need the money or fame, but rather seemed to have an uncommon and sincere desire to help her people/country.
I can't think of too many other world leaders who would put themselves in the position she did.
Now she's paid the ultimate price for her efforts and deserves respect.
'There are some Jews who ate American'
you're saying cannibal jews assassinated bhutto?
well... seeing as its CIF... that's a reasonable suggestion. certainly a possibility.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Ulysses31: Yeah, i remember a couple of days ago when some people took your obviously tongue-in-cheek comments seriously. There are some real chuckleheads out there. Be careful when using humour or irony on CiF!!
At least this thread is much more civil than the other one 'Beyond Belief'. Some nasty stuff on that one.
Gondwanaland: Well said. Whatever you say about her past record she had the guts to stand up to the extremists and paid for it.
gondwanaland - said:
"... she's paid the ultimate price for her efforts and deserves respect."
Well said Sir. Would skiergolfer like to echo that statement? I don't think skiergolfer respects anything, let alone brave men, and even less brave women, and I imagine skiergolfer has oil shares and is reckoning they'll go up, and is quietly and smugly pleased at the prospect.
Most of the people commenting at the moment deplore the fact that Bhutto has been killed and applaud her bravery while quite properly maintaining reserved positions concerning her opinions and her previous political actions and those actions she might have taken in the future - but which - as a result of her death - will never be taken. One thing I really hate about some of the comments is the racist "this is just a game" attitude that comes through from some of the posters from America. I remember Katrina and the disgraceful way rich people in America responded to that disaster and I want everybody that was part of that malreaction out of public office.
And I want to see George Bush in a dock.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I know some neocons are touchy about whiteness.
So let us this thing again!
1. America is a White Anglo Saxon, Protestant nation, Jews are neither white/Protestant nor Anglo Saxon.
2. American is NOT equals to the "Jews" nor are "Jews" equal to "America."
3. There are some "Jews" who are American but NOT all "Jews" are Americans.
Hence. once you get these distinction clearly understood, then, go and ask your boss to give you a useful metaphor to spin at CIF!
Note: conflating A"merica" with the "Jews" is a joke!
I rank this as the most fitting reflection on her life I've read today:
Her detractors on these pages would do well to read it.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]More people using another opportunity to take pathetic dig at the left. The left are paranoid and conspiratial self haters of course, seeing as the individual is obviously identical with the state. If such people have such a contempt for the left then why are they on this website. Do they have something they need to prove to themselves?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Just reading "I AM LEGEND" by Richard Matheson.
The keynote of minority prejudice is this: They are loathed because they are feared. Thus at one time, the Dark and Middle Ages, to be succinct, the vampire's power
was great, the fear of him tremendous. He was anathema and still remains anathema. Society hates him without ration.
But are his needs any more shocking than the needs of other animals and men? Are his deeds more outrageous than the deeds of the parent who drained the spirit from his child? The vampire may foster quickened heartbeats and levitated hair. But is he worse than the parent who gave to society a
neurotic child who became a politician? Is he worse than the manufacturer who set up belated foundations with the money he made by handing bombs and guns to suicidal
nationalists? Is he worse than the distiller who gave bastardized grain juice to stultify further the brains of those who, sober, were incapable of a progressive thought? (Nay, I apologize for this calumny; I nip the brew
that feeds me.) Is he worse, then, than the publisher who filled ubiquitous racks with lust and death wishes? Really, now, search your soul, lovie -- is the vampire so bad?
All he does is drink blood.
Why, then, this unkind prejudice, this thoughtless bias? Why cannot the vampire live where be chooses? Why must he seek out hiding places where none can find him out? Why do you wish him destroyed? Ah, see, you have turned the poor guileless innocent into a haunted animal. He has no means
Of 'support, no measures for proper education, he has not the, voting franchise No wonder he is compelled to seek out a predatory nocturnal existence;
Robert Neville grunted a surly grunt. Sure, sure, he thought, but would you let your sister marry one?
He shrugged. You got me there, buddy, you got me there.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]MrDismal: Well, we both agree with Gondwanaland's sentiments but i'm not sure what makes you think that skiergolfer disagrees. I'm sure he's big enough to defend himself, i'm just curious to why you would say that. He's only made 1 comment on this post and there is nothing there to indicate a lack of respect. Is it because he called you a cretin? Or is it just that you jump to conclusions because he is an American poster? I bet his opinion of George Bush would surprise you.
Halgeel84: What?? Ulysses31's posts should not be taken too seriously.
"America is a WASP nation" Really? JFK, Oprah Winfrey, Carlos Santana and millions of others would be surprised to hear that.
"Jews are neither white/anglo-saxon or protestant." Well the last 2 are pretty obvious but Jerry Seinfeld and Steven Spielberg always looked white to me.
"Not all Jews are American." Really? Thanks for the info.
"I know some neocons are touchy about whiteness." Are you saying that Ulysses31 is a Neo-con? How do you know? What is a Neo-con anyway? Is Condoleeza Rice touchy about whiteness?? What does any of this have to do with the topic in question--- the brutal assasination of Mrs. Bhutto and the murder of her supporters/bodyguards??
These threads are getting bizarre. Mrs. Bhutto was far from perfect but Pakistan's best chance for the near future. She had the guts to stand up and be counted. Now she's dead. The future of Pakistan does not look good.
Here's a poem:
When Might is Right
Wrong is Right
And "out goes the light"
And there's no compass in sight
And we can't find our way home
When Wrong is Right
We get tight
And we drink all night
And we're filled up with fright
And we've got no home
Now: skiergolfer probably thinks this a good state to have us lot in - because then his oil shares go up. Perhaps: skiergolfer is laughing at and applauding Bhutto's death - because his oil shares are going up - and perhaps skiergolfer is one of the men who is profiting from the redevelopment of New Orleans and is very glad that the blacks that used to live there have been comprehensively dispossessed. And I imagine that halgeel84 would not like to spend any time at all with skiergolfer in an Indian Restaurant in Swiss Cottage in London.
But I do think - and hope - that she would like to spend some time in such a restaurant with me - and please - halgeel84 - treat this post as an invitation.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CzarnyKot - I do hope you're not right in thinking that I'm dumping on skiergolfer unfairly. I rather imagine that it wasn't anything he said about me but something he said about halgeel84 that annoyed me.
In my opinion - halgeel84 deserves a lot more respect than she gets - and I fume when I see her attacked.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Al qaida and Islamic terrorists are such a nebulous thing that anything can be attibuted to it wuthout proving anything and real criminals can hide behind it.
This time it is definitely somebody from the establishment- Army, ISI or Mr Musharraf himself. Mrs Bhuto heself said Pakistan is a land of Aurangzebs. It is some Aurangzeb whp is responsible for her assasination. This could not have happened without Mr Musharaffs's green signal.
That's right singhji
...because in a land of warring religous factions, endemic corruption, religious extremist scholls, religious extremist training camps, religious extremist hideaways, drug-running tribal leaders, honour killings, homocide-bombers, aquited gang-rapists, tribal justice for men only, dictatorship, military rule...
...it could only possibly be the fault of one man.
Duuuuuuuuuh !
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Well - it is a very bad day for Pakistan - and I apologise to anyone and everyone who thinks that any of my posts to this thread have been bad. I deplore the death of Bhutto. I also think, rightly or wrongly as the case may be, that although this thread contains posts which quite obviously demonstrate what appears to be contempt for everything Pakistani and Political, the posters who posted these contemptuous posts did so unwittingly, and were driven by the dangerous emotions that follow closely on every political assassination.
I am very sad that brave Benazir has gone.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Nice article Jason, provoking some sanctimonious responses as usual. Actually the people behind George Bush did it, probably indirectly. Bush himself would have been kept in the dark, as that's probably the safest place to keep him.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CJ, I'm frankly surprised that you don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm happy to refresh. You did say that leftists in the West support Islamic extremism. As there is no statistic anywhere and no anecdotal evidence to back this assertion up, I can only assume that it is a wacko theory dreamed up by a bunch of bleak and pathetic gun nuts between games of D&D. Again, you and the other neo-cons on these boards are trying to link humanist leftists, whose sympathies tend to lie with underdogs, with extremists who may or may not have been radicalized by the dehumanizing policies of the West and Western allied regimes. This is intellectually dishonest. As for your being Canadian, it's not really that big a deal, but I do tend to feel embarrassed when a fellow Canadian proves to be an neo-con tool.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]remember:
if it looks like it might benefit the usa, then its the CIA who did it.
but, if it doesn't look like it will benefit the usa... then its still the CIA who did it. they're just so evil and cunning that they've arranged it to look that way.
(CIF logic: you know it makes sense (unless you're a racist neocon stooge))
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]This is quite an odd thread.
MrDismal and Halgeel: Love is a many splendored thing. Best wishes.
skiergolfer: IllegalCombatAnt = ElliotCB
Check the last few comments for confirmation.
----But she wasn't. Pakistan has two kinds of leader since independence; Generals, and thieves""------
Since when have the two been mutually exclusive?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Since my radio did *not* sic Al Qaeda immediately after the news of her death broke, I assume they are the culprits. I would even make sense, for once.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Dave24 points out, "This tragic event is being used once again to justify the knee-jerk anti-Muslim sentiments that issue forth regularly from some quarters. For those of you suggesting that Islam has a monopoly on death, destruction, and war, read a few history books. "Christians" have been slaughtering each other and others for many centuries. Just look at the 20th Century (unless you're suggesting that Hitler and Stalin and their followers were adherents of the Islamic faith)."
"If you seriously think that western societies have spent the last couple of millennia living in perfect harmony, and Muslims are the root of all violence and conflict in the world, you are sadly deluded."
Pointing to the truth of the century old creed of "Islamofascism," not the false unsupportable "religion of peace" politically correct BS that is force-fed us, is hardly a "knee-jerk" reaction. The true un-abrogated verse of the Koran call for continuous fighting, killing, and terror until all the world is for Allah alone. Earlier I gave you a quote from John Quincy Adams written over 200 years ago - another, I suppose, "knee-jerk anti-Muslim sentiments that issue forth regularly from some quarters." His words were true then, they are true now. I could give you dozens more similar quotes from great men over many centuries; all "knee-jerk" sentiments about the same exact thing: "Islamofascism." Many hundreds of millions have died over the centuries as a result of the true commands of a certain self proclaimed prophet's version of God. The slaughter continues to this day; over 10,000 attacks since 9/11 and over a hundred and fifty thousand victims (dead and wounded).
And nobody said Muslims are the root of all violence in the world - only about 99% of it. As far as for people who called themselves "Christians" as they set about slaughter in past centuries, they simply were not "Christians" no matter what they said or may have believed themselves. Read Matthew 7:22,23. Besides that, there are no commands from Christ to kill or subjugate anybody. The few times he mentions the sword are taken totally out of context by "Islamofascist" apologists, or misunderstood by idiots. And the OT is mostly a matter of history - fanciful stories and legends; we have no way of confirming their voracity; and there are no commands for future generations to kill until the OT's Jehovah rules the world - totally the opposite is "Islamofascism"; that is its "monopoly."
What "Islamofascism" has a "monopoly" on is that it is the only religion that calls for continuous fighting, killing, terrorism, suicide murder (just as Bhutto's killer did; following precisely the commands of his God - and he will receive all the rewards of a carnal paradise promised therefore; 72 virgins et al) until all the world is governed by "Sharia" - Allah's law. Benazir Bhutto was a Muslim you say ... Benazir Bhutto was munafiq; read your Koran. Benazir Bhutto only half covered herself and displayed herself wantonly - a grievous sin for women of the only true faith. She campaigned for democracy. Show me where Allah permits democracy. Mohammad's version of God - Allah - permits only one thing for all the earth - submission to His law; the Koran.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]JIHAD IS BAD
##..it must be.. the fault of the Jews. ##
##.. lets get back to blaming ..the jews.##
##.. one assigns responsibility to Israel.. ##
Why don't you give the Jews a break ? Do you think they are some sort of super race that can control the world and post to CIF all at the same time?
No to anti Semitism on CIF.
No to fabricated anti Semitism on CIF. It makes it more difficult to spot the real anti Semite when he posts.
PS The most obvious explanation is probably right. It will have been an Islamacist-affiliated psychopath. Not a Jew.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]--MrDismal,
But I do! I get the respect of the good posters such as yourself.
there are lot of people at CIF I want to meet and you are of them. I have a close friend- [Ofxord graduate] and currently a professor at Liverloop U. She is British and knows the lay of the British cultural landscape better. Through her, I am planing to organise a big party honouring CIF. It will take place sometime next summer. It will be sweet party because Somalia will also be free by then. In the mean time, keep fighting the good fight and writing those wonderful poems. Do not get mad when you read neocons insulting me. it shows, the chance of I having tea and small talk with any of these cruel neocons is zero; with you it is certain!
Oh fuck. And I was just thinking about how pleasant this thread was without Berchman's ###'ing.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]CanadianJew
##.. I was just thinking about how pleasant this thread was without Berchman's ###'ing.##
Sorry Bro I just cannot let sleeping doggy stylers away with it!
I,ve had a scan of the comments and while there are many crazies (although AppleOgia wins in my opinion), nobody seems to be challenging this:
Voland - December 27 4.47 pm - "except of course there are rarely any coincidences in geopolitics"
I am glad that geopolitics is coincidence free and that everything fits your worldview, or will be made to fit, dammit.
As it seems unavoidable in the 24 hour news cycle environment to wait and see, personally I plan to honour the dead as I see fit and hope for the future as positively as is appropriate.
It's not sitting on the fence; it's called 'thinking'.
"And nobody said Muslims are the root of all violence in the world - only about 99% of it. As far as for people who called themselves "Christians" as they set about slaughter in past centuries, they simply were not "Christians" no matter what they said or may have believed themselves."
Now, now, AppleOgia. I think Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda and his Jesuits are already starting to feel jealous...
Oh, and by the way, I'm sure if you asked Benedict XVI, he'd still remember his Hitler Jügen oath...some Bavarian Catholics are noted for their detailed memory. :)
((Muslims are the root of (99%) violence in the world )).
## Jesuits are already starting to feel jealous...##
Good one. Violence is an elastic term but Ghandi got it right describing poverty as the most brutal form of it. The removal of sewage/water pipes in IRAQ will kill thousands in a subtle and non headline grabbing way...unlike a suicide bomb which is instant and , of course , a dirty Islamacist trick.
Take care.
who did this ?
I see you are still living in the land of muslim hating, white supremecists aka - Canada
And now in summer - you plan to visit the home of the dreaded US stooges - Nulabor and the nasty, white British imperialists, who together with the US are responsible for everything that is wrong in the entire world, ever (copyright - S. Milne)
And you plan on attending decadent, liberal, western events such as - wait for it - Jazz festivals! (womens headware optional)
Surely your time would be better spent visiting your muslim brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Libya, Iran etc etc. Iraqi barbers are looking for support.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]No mention in Jason's article, nor in the western press, of the contradictory reports from members of Bhuto's party at the demo, who claimed that she had left before the bombing. No mention of the improbability of a suicide bomber also outfitting himself as a marksman... No questioning such an absurd story.
Enough said.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@CzarnyKot: I see you've made page four of the print version, under "On the Blogs: world reaction". Spot on in my opinion; you're bang on when kept off topics like Alan Shearer.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@Berchmans
"The removal of sewage/water pipes in IRAQ will kill thousands in a subtle and non headline grabbing way"
Indeed, my friend, the most perverse forms of violence are often the ones lurking in the background. Your point is well taken, for who cares to remember those obscure articles warning of cholera outbreaks a few months ago? Yet the contractors are well aware of this, and they continue to undermine the construction of vital public infrastructure because it yields less profits than projects in other more lucrative fields.
I'd like to think that there may be a slight improvement following the upcoming U.S. elections, but my young days of idealistic optimism have somewhat waned! It would be a bit difficult for Iraqis to expect much from those in the 'Land of the Free' who butchered the (Indian) Braves and all the buffalo!
All the best for the New Year.
You really are all nutters.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]GuyFawkesIsInnocent
##..who cares to remember those obscure articles warning of cholera outbreaks ##
Ive said it before ...but wait till our best weapon, disease, is deployed!
Take care my friend.
## You really are all nutters...##
My cousin.. a serious schizophrenic ..used to say she could tell when an attack was imminent when she thought everyone else was insane.
Tread carefully!
B.... President, Loopies against violence!
Mr.Dismal: No worries. Just remember to criticise people's concrete opinions instead of speculating what those opinions might be. Enjoy your meal, i hope it goes well. Romance blossoming on CiF!! Who would've thought?
finniestonecrane: What!!! These babblings get in the print version?? I had no idea. I'm back in Newcastle for xmas break but unfortunately my local newsagent burnt down last month so it might be a trek to buy it. I have to admit that my attitiude to Mr. Shearer is based on blind loyalty and emotion. If i think about him logically....... Thanks for the compliment.
Weaselmeister Comment No. 1014378
"Sorry, but although I'd never vote for him I'd prefer a social night out with George Bush Jr to one with Halgeel any time."
Fair point there Weasel. You could certainly have a few laughs with a cokehead and drunkard but I'd have reservations about sitting down with a coward and draft dodger.
I have noted you support all things neocon and Pro Zionistic.
2. I am a Canadian and Canada does not belong to the neocons or to Zionsists, even some Canadians are neocons and Canadians. But they are very tiny. noisy yes, but tiny.
so either shut up or figure out useful points of contrabution to this disucssion board.
Voland has presented the most logical scenario.
A few more questions may shine some light :
- Why the terrorists only focused on Benazir Bhutto ?
- Why President Musharraf has not been targetted ?
- Who can provide the resources ?
- If Al Qaeda did it, who created Al Qaeda ?
- Who benefits from instability in the region ?
- Why Pakistan was allowed to have nuclear arsenal ?
- Why is a loose canon (loaded with nuclear bomb) needed ?
I believe these deadly political adventures by USA, can only be ended if world-wide non-violence and disarming of nuclear arsenals and all other arms are saught. This might sound a long shot. Considering major climate changes ahead that will affect food and energy supply drastically, any reduction of deadly toys world-wide will give the planet a chance to survive !
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]'- Why the terrorists only focused on Benazir Bhutto ?'
They didn't.
'- Why President Musharraf has not been targetted ?'
He has been.
'- Who can provide the resources ?'
Radical Muslims, elements of the ISI - take your pick.
'- If Al Qaeda did it, who created Al Qaeda ?'
Osama bin Laden.
'- Who benefits from instability in the region ?'
Osama bin Laden.
'- Why Pakistan was allowed to have nuclear arsenal ?'
Erm, how would you have stopped it?
'- Why is a loose canon (loaded with nuclear bomb) needed ?'
Don't understand the question.
Guyfawkesisinnocent: '"The removal of sewage/water pipes in IRAQ will kill thousands in a subtle and non headline grabbing way"
Indeed, my friend, the most perverse forms of violence are often the ones lurking in the background. Your point is well taken, for who cares to remember those obscure articles warning of cholera outbreaks a few months ago? Yet the contractors are well aware of this, and they continue to undermine the construction of vital public infrastructure because it yields less profits than projects in other more lucrative fields.'
You seem to live in some bizarre parallel world, in which the Americans are going around removing water pipelines in Iraq. May I suggest that in fact, they have spent several years trying to build them, but the Glorious Resistance - those ragged men in their sandals with Kalashnikovs, who, with their 145 attacks a day, have rendered the country ungovernable - have been blowing them up.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Softech: 'No mention in Jason's article, nor in the western press, of the contradictory reports from members of Bhuto's party at the demo, who claimed that she had left before the bombing. No mention of the improbability of a suicide bomber also outfitting himself as a marksman... No questioning such an absurd story.'
Hmmm. Interesting point there, Softech. What you seem to be suggesting is that the whole event may have been a hoax, and that Ms Bhutto is in fact alive, and has been spirited away somehow. Well, tell you what, I'll file that alongside all the other conspiracy theories that have been expounded in this thread, because they're all about as plausible as each other.
Mr. Burke, as a political cartoonist here in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, this is my opinion about the Benazir Bhutto murder, in a form of a cartoon: http://latuff2.deviantart.com/art/Benazir-Bhutto-murder-73157346
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@ Berchmans - - - {1015423}
## You really are all nutters...## [Smithwinstonsmith]
My cousin.. a serious schizophrenic ..used to say she could tell when an attack was imminent when she thought everyone else was insane.
Tread carefully!"
Your cousin's insight should be included in the CIF Talk Policy Guideleines.
= = = = =
@ Lopakhin - - - -{12:17 PM}
"Osama bin Laden ... Osama bin Laden"
While you're in question-answering mode:
Can you provide any evidence that bin Laden is still alive?
(re posts passim: I'm still waiting for evidence that Muslims flew planes into the Twin Towers.)
How are you brother! You know me through BH!
peace and justice!!
Wonderful to see you here brother and you are one of the most talented and committed cartoonists I know, besides Ben Heine and Steve Bell!
it is definately stupid to assassinate Bhutto.
it is a tragedy for the Parkistan.
Take care,Bhutto--a fighter for people.
@ Carlos Latuff -
Well you seem very sure that Musharraf did it. Personally, I'm not so certain. I get the impression that she was his best chance of staying on in power. Remember how, in the weeks before her assassination, she was being described as a US puppet, involved in a stitch-up in which Musharraf would get to stay as President? You'll still see some anti-imperialist leftwingers on these comment threads who can't decide whether she was a good person, in which they reckon the US or Musharraf probably killed her, or she was a bad person, in which case it's good riddance.
Laxative Function: 'Can you provide any evidence that bin Laden is still alive?'
Well, I think he was alive in 2004, because of the video he released back then just before the US election. That's the best I can do off the top of my head.
While you're here, though, I'm interested to know what you think of Softech's post a little earlier. Interesting, wasn't it? Strangely enough, it turns out that, in the immediate aftermath of traumatic political events, 'contradictory reports' emerge. Who'd have thought it. But now, a day later, it's clear to pretty much everyone (including, I'm assuming, yourself) that Ms Bhutto has, in fact, been killed. Now, with just a little bit of imagination, you can apply that to other attacks, in the immediate wake of which contradictory reports have also emerged. I'll leave it there, and you can make of it what you will.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Pakisitani people usually blame the US for political turmoil in their country. Some people are saying American CIA did it. Some say British MI6 was actually behind it. Some say Al Qaeda. Others say its always the Israeli secret service Mossad who does these sort of things. Some blame God. Some bolame her own stupidity. Some say President Karzai's men took her out. Others say its the Red Mosque militant brigade that carried out revenge killing. Benazir Bhutto herself blamed General Musharraf for trying to get rid of her. Which one of these suspect really did it? Analysts claim we will know the truth in about 3 months.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]It's all so dreadfully sad! Poor lady! I'm sure that, above all else, she wanted to help create a good life for the long-suffering Pakistani People, who are vital, vibrant, intelligent, eager and good-natured folk, on the whole. But I'm afraid that her assassination will be rapidly forgotten - not because it isn't tragic, senseless and completely counter-productive (no matter who it was that committed it) - but because it is bound to be quickly superceded by further, and even more dastardly acts, all over the globe, as mankind forgets its principles and innate decency.
"Yes, Dave, thems my sentiments too.
It really is like watching a murder all over again to read the filth, posing as commentary, by those who beguile their worthless time spewing out hatred of Islam.
As to those, like "jihadisbad", who seize upon the opportunity to blame what they call "leftists" they simply remind us that Ms Bhutto, (to whose relatives all decent people send their condolences), was not only a muslim but greatly influenced by the socialist tradition."
My sentiments also. Though the usual suspects are well known, they tend to be American eg jihadisabad with that terrible witty monicker, AnastasiaUSA, Alwaysindoubt and often have a sectarian agenda. Utterly predictable. One wonders why they bother posting on a site of well known, liberal left-of-centre newspaper in the UK. Plenty of other places they can take their noxious posts to.
"I'm sure that, above all else, she wanted to help create a good life for the long-suffering Pakistani People, who are vital, vibrant, intelligent, eager and good-natured folk, on the whole."
Agreed apropos the Pakistani people, not so sure re Bhutto. Swiss prosecutors and the Bank of England investigating her for corruption found she often mistook the country's exchequer with her own personal accounts.
Oh yes, agreed with comments above re Jason Burke. His job depends on this kind of stuff (reminds me a little of Ed Hussain)
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Littleroy,
3 months, I think you're being too optimistic. JFK and MLK were shot down more than 40 years ago and we are still debating whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Grey were assassins who acted alone (apparently they were not). When in doubt, abstain. The truth will come out one day, but not yet. All that one knows now is that Buttho is dead, and so is the assassin. Everything else is pure speculation. Let's leave it as that for now.
"This is quite an odd thread."
They have all been strange lately - did you see the Blair is Muslim one? And the Linda Grant one on violence against women which somehow turned out to be about Israel.
Agree with your 12.38 a.m. post. Especially the point about Condi Rice.
It being Christmas and the season of universal goodwill, one is glad to score you ten out of ten for spelling the word "definately" in such an endearing manner.
Your advice to Benazir to "take care", too, is sweet, but regrettably several hours too late.
These minor slips, presumably, are standard occurrences in Chirna.
My Belgian friend, you seem to do absolutely NOTHING at all other than post comments to this site. You're absolutely unique! Well done!
Deleted by moderator
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]According to AppleOgia, "the OT (Old Testament) is mostly a matter of history - fanciful stories and legends; we have no way of confirming their voracity". So is the New Testament! So is every other holy book! Once humans outgrow their belief in supernatural beings, maybe we can start making some real progress toward peace in this world.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I've spoken to some of my Pakistani friends who are normal people. By that I mean they are interested in living in peace, do not want or want to cause trouble in any way and worry because they see the country where many of their relatives live teetering on the brink of collapse.
The initial response seems to be to throw their hands up in despair. But on reflexion it seems that there is at last a feeling that the destabilisers, the nutters, the wierdos, the self seekers, the corrupt, the wheelers dealers, have to be confronted and defeated.
It's no use forever blaming outsiders: Bush and Blair (sorry, Brown) may be bad but they are not the cause of the turmoil today in Pakistan. Time to face up to the fact that this is a Pakistani problem and has to be sorted out by Pakistanis. If not, the country could very well split up with richer more stable provinces wanting to be liberated from the medieval trouble making regions.
Time to stand up and be counted.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]With all due respect to Ms Bhutto's family, i'd like to question the news coming out from the Pakistan government which says that she was hit by shrapnel and killed. According to eye-witnesses, Ms Bhutto went down after two shots rang out from nearby. The eye-witness actually saw her recede into her vehicle BEFORE the bomb went off. How then, is it possible she was hit by shrapnel in the neck when she was inside her armoured vehicle when the bomb went off?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I suspect CIA had killed Benazir Bhutto because she ripped up the secret deal she made with Washington 3 months ago. Experts say United States feared that Bhutto would bring Nawaz Sharif back to power in Pakistan. Sharif is hated in US because he is pro-Taliban and fiercly independent. US sees Nawaz Sharif as it sees President Ahmadinejad - someone who stands up to America and does not "give a damn". Mr Sharif was Prime Minister and he had defied US pressure and explosed nuclear bombs bring Pakistan into the club of world's nuclear powers. Ms Bhutto was upsetting US by making friends with Mr Sharif. Sharif and Benazir combination was red line that was totally unacceptable to Washginton. Therefore, CIA was sent to recruit some muslims young nut cases to carry out the dirty deed. A cowardly act indeed.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Who knows and who cares who did it. She was a blight on her country which she and her family pillaged and plundered, enriching themselves to the tune of billions.
Little Ms. Bhutto sat in a corner screwing the country dry.
'Corruption! She said, what the fucks that? I am simply making a Bhutto pie
Money laundering through Swiss banks? And 5% commissions from Dassault
Were all damn lies to sully the good & honest Bhutto name when really Asif's at fault
The 355 acre London estate should have remained in my name but, no, it was not to be
The dumb son-of-a-bitch had to transfer the property in the name of his daddy and mummy
Bastards even took away the £117,000 diamond necklace which I never even got to wear
They'll never get their hands on £740 million Swiss account that'll be too much to bear
Nor will they dare deprive me of the £3.5m Rockwood estate at Brooke in Surrey
Where Asif has been hard at work with all the forged evidence he has had to bury
Those cretinous buggers the Swiss, Poles, Spanish and French had all ganged up on me
There never was any theft they allege, the hundreds of millions were just commissions you see
A right good and honest person I am and not the avaricious politician, that's Mosharaf's bile
The $50 million mansion on110 acres in Islamabad, is simply my right to an imperial lifestyle
Twas all for the love of my people, the bribes, favoured contracts or so it seemed
Just so that I may live for them a life, that the poor miserable wretches only dreamed
Suffering for my people, languishing in London, Paris and Dubai for all these years
Until uncle Bush came along and with Gordon Brown and decided to wipe my tears
I was to be PM and as long as I kept the horrible Islamists at bay
I could carry on printing money as before and be queen for yet another day
Grubby Mosharaf was to be the President and though initially not too happy with the deal
Until offered $200 million a year and a guarantee of his corruptions and shenanigans under seal.
The CIA orchestrated the whole thing. Not to mention the Twin Towers, the Bali bombing, Ernest Hemingway's 'suicide', the Manson family murders and JFK. The list goes on.
Actually, but most rational accounts, the CIA is too incompetent and useless to organize a hit on a pizza delivery boy, much less the assassination of the leader of Pakistan.
Unless littleroy's post is a small masterpiece of comic irony and I missed the joke cos' I'm hungover or something...
@ Lopakhin - - - {Comment No. 1015617)
Thanks for your response and question:
" ... I'm interested to know what you think of Softech's post a little earlier {9:01 AM}. ... in the immediate aftermath of traumatic political events, 'contradictory reports' emerge. ... a day later, it's clear to pretty much everyone... you can apply that to other attacks, in the immediate wake of which contradictory reports have also emerged."
Indeed. The traumatic aftermath is a time when perceptions are maleable, offering a brief window of opportunity in which an authoritive reality can be imposed on a traumatised, pychologically regressed population. In the face of a well-defined threat, frightened people are most likely to accept protection and explanations proffered by a Father figure, or substitute.
An outstanding aspect of the 9/11 attacks, which you obliquely refer to, is how quickly the culprets were given faces and names. We were promised comprehensive evidence of their guilt later but have yet to receive it. Consensus formers know that most people will believe, especially initially, what they are told, without proof.
Today's Mirror newspaper(a slightly leftish British tabloid) front-page headline "Al Qaeda killed Bhutto, claims Pakistan", for example, is all the "evidence" that many readers will need to be convinced that al Qaeda were responsible Bhutto's death. They take it on trust. They will not even notice the word "claims".
It's wise to believe nothing that we are told about politically charged events such as terrorist attacks and assassinations. More often that not we will never know, for certain, what has actually happened. We cannot.
We are just shown the fireworks and spoonfed suspects by "experts".
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]The fact that Pakistan is America's front line ally in the war on terror, and yet we are debating here "Who did it?", is laughable.
We all know who did it and what is the US, so concerned about a lack of democracy anywhere else, going do about it? Nothing. Sorry. That's not strictly true. It will do what it always does and blame Al Quaida - or in Bush's moronic phraseology "evil-dooers" - rather than admit that the regime its been supporting for years had its grubby hands all over this.
One really does wonder what the war on terror is achieving and who is making the decisions as to who are the "good" terrorists supported by the West and who are the "bad" terrorists derided by the West.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I know one thing for sure: I didn't do it and I have an alibi: I was with my family at the time of the crime, discussing whether or not we should call the repairman to fix the stove before the new year (we are still undecided). I think the aliens did it, because they want English to be the national language in Pakistan (a language that they already learned after kidnapping Elvis and a few folks in Arizona), rather than Urdu or Punjabi.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]douglasbourne - Islamic fundamentalists had as much reason to wish to see Bhutto dead as Musharaf. So why, in the face of a total lack of evidence, do you automatically assume that it was the latter rather than the former? Aside, that is, from the fact that the latter allows you indulge in the usual brainless Bush baiting.
Oh - wait a minute - that *is* the reason isn't it? Sorry for wasting your time.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]I thought CIF was a place for people to comment on the article in question. Instead it seems to be inhabited by strange individuals like Mr Dismal, littleroy, halgeel84 and other simple minded folk, most of whom seem to have trouble with the English language. How they can turn the sad subject of a tragic day into a 'love in' speaks volumes about their mindset. It would appear to me that no matter what disaster befalls us in the future, in their world, the blame will always lie at the door of the west. The constant destruction of their arguments and beliefs on CIF seems to make no impression on their closed minds. Very scary.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]--maninthemoon,
May be because tersm such as love, peace and friendship are not words your heart and figers are familiar with!
##Berchmans My Belgian friend, You're absolutely unique! ##
Just when you think youve been called everything.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]where is the evidence that AQ did it?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Remember that famous line from the film, Casablanca "round up the usual suspects"
Al Qaida is to obvious to be behind this horrific murder. Te general is the logical suspect! America can only deal with slaves in the Muslim world and he took care of the competition. The US knows only how to deal with political whores and charlatans in the Muslim world. Now that MS Bhutto is gone the US can impose Pinochet like ruthless dictatorship on Pakistan. Now he is the only choice for the US.
Halgeel 'Al Qaida is to obvious to be behind this horrific murder.'
Thanks for that comment Halgeel. Your unassailable logic has enlivened an otherwise dull evening.
Sir........just heard from the ether that Beavis
and Butt-Head were behind this cowardly act.
@theendarm: This is the WOT, Senor! We don't need no steenkin' evidence.
I suspect what happens in a high powered murder like this, is that every involved agree that the first thing to do is to destroy all evidence. That safely done, you can start bicker about whodunnit, trade horses, produce 'evidence', create reality and so on.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]The tiger in the SF zoo was an AQ operative in disguise, investigators revealed today.
Investigations are continuing to assess the reliability of intelligence that suggest an AQ hand in 16-year old Jamie Lynn Spears' pregnancy.
Anyone taken a look at the Washington Post today?
In a tiny space on the left side column, there is perhaps the only sensible article of the day, refuting the idea of al-Qaeda's responsibility in Bhutto's murder:
But then, a few spaces down, an editor for the Jerusalem Post is given an entire column in which he argues that Bhutto's killing is a good reason for the West to join in the annihilation of Iran:
A sweet introduction to "serious" American journalism!
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]that mean that Jerusalem Post is an American daily?
I think not!
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
They are fingering this guy:
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Another fresh cartoon on issue.
Sherlock Sam in Pakistan
Could the bomber/ gunman DNA reveal if he had a life-threatening disease, besides being stir crazy , I mean AIDS, cancer ?
Why ? Just a link in my 'this is classic CIA as used in South America' scenario.
A la Voland, something bigger is afoot. The plan to take Iran in short succession after Iraq has got a bit screwed up. The Caspian Sea reserves planned outlet to the West was always through Israel, for obvious reasons when you consider earthquakes and Kurdish secessionists up Turkey way.
The other big market for these massive reserves was always the East and Pakistan was number one bet, especially with Afghanistan under control and supplying pump station energy.
A bonus with a friendly Pakistan was knowing that the trigger finger for a 'big one' launch would need USA approval.
But the war/s didn't go so good and the militants in Pakistan (( possibly including Bin Laden ) have been an increasing worry as they see the giant founder, or flounder, as the case may be. At present we have a rather precariously preserved nuclear arsenal ( Even be it 'just' one warhead )in a virtual auction in no-man's land.
And to further complicate matters Putin, always keen on chess, shuffles nuclear technology and AA weaponry into Iran. I'll see you and raise you ten, to mix metawars.
I still say CIA. Why not ? If they can go to war over oil they can go to war over oil and nukes combined. And let's face it. If the USA don't go in on a destabilise-and-take over bid, someone else will. I just think they're stretching themselves a bit thin over a mega-continent that they know close to f'all about and where Macdonalds and hollywood blockbusters might be acceptable, but marines in tanks and Apache helicopters will not be.
It's all getting strange if you ask me.
No disrespect to Benazir Bhutto, who appeared to have a great deal more balls than a certain you know who leader with a froon over here. Still, you do get the feeling she must have felt that the odds were stacked very much against her in this gamble, unless she was ' assured' otherwise.
The official coroner's reports from Pakistan today saying that she died of a cracked skull she sustained when her head banged against the sunroof lever as she was trying to duck is so transparently bogus that the coroner can immediately be arrested for being an aiding/abetting.
I have banged my head dozens of times trying to get my head back in the car through the sunroof - a couple times in very snowy skiddy weather during my college days.
That must've been a ninja sunroof for it to do fatal damage.
Sounds suspiciously like the 1968 magic bullet to me.
The Baitullah telephone transcript released today is so patently bogus. Who is trying to hide what? We may never know.
As an afterthought, the best point to strike inside Iran is probably through the Pakistan border.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@littleroy
Comment No. 1015981
Sorry ,missed fact you'd said CIA. I second you. Ulysses31 said it then unsaid it ,,i think ?
Anyhow , if we're right about the CIA then we'll never know. That Irish enough for you ?
Loads of shifts in the oil pipeline deals of late if you google pakistan oil pipelines or similar.
Al-Qaida is not a "tool" of US policy; it is the RESULT of US policy. You need to think more carefully.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]they blame the aq for this too......
"Al-Qaida is not a "tool" of US policy; it is the RESULT of US policy. You need to think more carefully."
On the contrary. Many of the leading memebers of salafi terrorism are veterans of the Afghan jihad and were provided financial and logistical support by the CIA through Prince Turki of Saudi Arabia & the Pakistani ISI.
Al-Qaida is used as an instrument of fear by the US to push forward its worldwide agenda of extortion and curtailment of human rigts. If people are afraid, they are more likely to accept that what the US wants is justified...
The Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, Iraq, Abu Ghraib, CIA flights & torture, etc...The list of crimes perpetrated in the name of fighting terrorism is long.
"Comment No. 1016275
December 28 19:23
where is the evidence that AQ did it?"
For that matter, where is the evidence that AQ actually exists?
At last someone who truly grasps the situation,Nice concise post my friend.
I very rarely post on CiF as the vast majority of posters seem to be either undercover racists unconvincingly claiming to be former lefty liberals who switched sides because the "clear and present danger"(is this not a laughable hollowood film?)of extremism,or pseudo intellectuals who feel very superior because they digest and then regurgitate whatever tripe they have read in the UK board sheets.
The concept that their information sources may be little more than wholly controlled propaganda outlets seems to sadly elude both these groups.
one only had to have viewed the BBC news 24 coverage of this assassination to realise how reliable even the mighty BBC really is.
more "aq" atrocities ?
Who did it?...Looks like none of the above, this accidental death being a act of God. The neocons now will have to find some other excuse to invade Pakistan.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Sir..........it is now becoming clearer how Bhutto was assassinated and why the Musharraf government is covering up the details.
Two gunmen took part in this shooting which was carried out almost simultaneously with one gunman at the side of the 4x4 and the second on the back of the 4x4. The first was in his mid 20's, clean shaven with straight neat parted hair. He was wearing dark sunglasses and was carrying a large calibre semi-automatic pistol with a long barrel. The second was in his 40's and was of a heavy build with receding afro/arabic style hair and a moustache. Both gunmen were smartly dressed wearing dark suites and tie.
The first gunman fired from the side after the 4 x 4 passed and the second gunman clambered onto the back of the 4x4 and then both opened fire. There were at least 4 shots with some occurring almost simultaneously. After the gun shots, the younger gunman exploded his device. Of importance is the fact that Bhutto had already collapsed into the 4x4 during the shooting and before the explosion occurred. Doctors who initially examined Bhutto concluded that here spinal cord in the neck was severed so she would have collapsed and died almost instantly.
It is a scientific fact that at this close range the wound to the back of the head and neck will cause fractures and unfortunately the front of the face where the bullets exit will be severely disfigured and in a mess - exit wounds are much more damaging to flesh than entry.
Why you may ask has the government lied about the cause of her death? The answer lies in the fact that either the terrorists have successfully changed tactics or it is a different group that has been trained by experts in assassinating opponents. The bomb was a red herring to confuse us into thinking it is the Taliban. This actually has the hallmarks of the US black operations squad that have recruited and trained local operatives who may be unaware that there real masters are sitting in Washington and/or Rawalpindi.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]@weneedanswers
"The concept that their information sources may be little more than wholly controlled propaganda outlets seems to sadly elude both these groups."
Indeed. Yet the disinformation machine has never been able to obliterate all the facts. They are out there if you make the effort to look more closely. The problem most people have is in connecting the dots. Many refuse to believe what they see because it doesn't fit in with the logic of their reasoning! It all depends on how far you are ready to question the inherent "truths" of your education...
Take care.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]The all mighty Pakistani god ! With a little help and manipulation by George W. Bush, Condi Rice, Musharraf, Bhutto's own arrogance, greed for power, the crooked timber of humanity and the indifference in the hearts and minds of all of the above and others that preach the song and dance of so called democracy and practice it not themselves. All the bloody malignant narcissists, chronic scape-goaters, uncorrectable grab baggers, who sacrifice others with coercion, reckless abandon and impunity to promote their own, outward, hypocrite self image of good and perfection. The self promoting evil.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]In his two landmark books, 'Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia' and' Jihad: The Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia', Ahmed Rashid richly details the Bhutto regime's connections to the ISI, the Taliban, "militant Islam", multinational oil interests, and Anglo-American officials and intelligence proxies.
In Jihad, Rashid wrote:
"Ironically it was not the ISI but Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, the most liberal, secular leader in Pakistan's recent history, who delivered the coup de grace to a new relationship with Central Asia. Rather than support a wider peace process in Afghanistan that would have opened up a wider peace process in Afghanistan, Bhutto backed the Taliban, in a rash and presumptuous policy to create a new western-oriented trade and pipeline route from Turkmenistan through southern Afghanistan to Pakistan, from which the Taliban would provide security. The ISI soon supported this policy because its Afghan protégé Gulbuddin Hekmatyar had made no headway in capturing Kabul, and the Taliban appeared to be strong enough to do so."
In Taliban, Rashid provided even more historical detail:
"When Bhutto was elected as Prime Minister in 1993, she was keen to open a route to Central Asia. A new proposal emerged backed strongly by the frustrated Pakistani transport and smuggling mafia, the JUI and Pashtun military and political officials."
"The Bhutto government fully backed the Taliban, but the ISI remained skeptical of their abilities, convinced that they would remain a useful but peripheral force in the south."
"The US congress had authorized a covert $20 million budget for the CIA to destabilize Iran, and Tehran accused Washington of funneling some of these funds to the Taliban---a charge that was always denied by Washington . Bhutto sent several emissaries to Washington to urge the US to intervene more publicly on the side of Pakistan and the Taliban."
Bhutto's one mistake: she vehemently supported the pipeline proposed by Argentinian oil company Bridas, and opposed the pipeline by Unocal (favored by the US). This contributed to her ouster in 1996, and the return of Nawaz Sharif to power. As noted by Rashid:
"After the dismissal of the Bhutto government in 1996, the newly elected Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, his oil minister Chaudry Nisar Ali Khan, the army and the ISI fully backed Unocal. Pakistan wanted more direct US support for the Taliban and urged Unocal to start construction quickly in order to legitimize the Taliban. Basically the USA and Unocal accepted the ISI's analysis and aims---that a Taliban victory in Afghanistan would make Unocal's job much easier and quicken US recognition."
- Anglo-American Ambitions behind the Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and the Destabilization of Pakistan:
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]Animals did this. They must be hunted and be put down immediately. What human-beings plot and gun down a woman, a mother in cold blood? The murder of Bhutto is indeed a dastardly act and the bastards who committed this monstrosity are a curse to humanity. They are anti-progress and desire to see another Afghanistan in Pakistan. Peace-loving Pakistani people must not allow these ravenous monsters to soil and desecrate their homeland. They must stand together to fight these forces of evil. Allowing the failure of that state will result in another Iraq where foreigners with America among the chief culprits are wrecking havoc on a holy land.
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subset: commoncrawl