text:
Savage Love Podcast
Check out the all new Savage Lovecast site!
Got a question for Dan Savage?
Call the Savage Love Podcast at 206-201-2720
or email Dan at email@example.com.
Savage Love Archives
Dec 11
Dec 4
Slam Bam -
Nov 27
Depressing -
Nov 20
Basics, Bitches -
Nov 13
Sluts and Such
More from Dan Savage
Good Grief and Great Tits
Sitting Down to Read Sarah Palin's Christmas Book While I Bake Christmas Cookies for My Family -
SLLOTD: Feeding Time
SLLOTD: The Stranger Beside Me
Shirtless, Lip Dubbin' Frat Boys Succeed At Make Snow Angels, Fail At Slow-Motion Twerking
Books by Dan Savage
- American Savage
- It Gets Better: Coming Out, Overcoming Bullying, and Creating a Life Worth Living
- The Commitment: Love, Sex, Marriage, and My Family
- Things I've Learned from Women Who've Dumped Me
- Skipping Towards Gomorrah
- The Kid: What Happened After My Boyfriend and I Decided to Go Get Pregnant
Savage Links
- Babeland
- Fleshbot
- Good Vibrations
- Joe Newton/Savage Illustrations
- Planned Parenthood
- Spreading Santorum
- Kinsey Confidential
- Carnal Nation
- Tiny Nibbles
Want a Second Opinion?
Contact Dan Savage
Savage on YouTube
Pray Away
July 16, 2009
You were recommended to me by an acquaintance familiar with your column and podcast. I am a 20-year-old male, and as such have certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have (desires of a sexual nature). However, I am deeply religious. Religion has been for me a source of strength in my times of weakness, a rock in the times of storm, and above all a home to return to when I have lost my path. In the teachings of my particular religion, to indulge the particular desires I am experiencing will condemn me to fates too grotesque to mention. I am rational enough to realize that there is no way that I can "pray away" these desires. My question is this: How does one prepare for a life of celibacy and solitude (as that is what is required of me to remain a member of this particular faith)? Based on what my friend has told me, I know you have little respect for religious practices and beliefs. However, these desires are not exactly something I can talk about with other members of my spiritual community. And while I am currently seeking counseling related to other issues, I was wondering what a so-called expert on sex and sexuality would have to say.
Clever Acronyms Escape Me
Get over yourself, faggot.
If it's possible for you to act on your unnamed-but-easily-identified desires in an ethical manner—if you desire to do whatever it is you desire to do with consenting adults who desire to take their turn doing it to you—this so-called expert on sexuality thinks you should crawl down off that cross and find yourself a boyfriend already. ("Pray away" the gay? I'm guessing you're Christian, probably Catholic.) And if you experience a moment's anxiety the first time you stick your ass in the air—pull the Jesus stick out first!—just remind yourself that things have been crawling on top of each other and madly humping away for 850 million years. Sex came first, then humanity (200,000ish years ago), then religion came along tens of thousands of years after that. Which may explain why religion, when pitted against sex (really old) and human nature (pretty old), always loses. Always.
If you're on the cross, CAEM, it's because you put yourself up there. Which means you're not some poor mortal trapped between a cosmic rock and an existential hard place; you're just another closeted cocksucker with a martyr complex.
Look, kiddo, you get one life, one chance at happiness. If it gives you a spiritual semi to fantasize about a God who created you gay but forbids you to act on your emotional and sexual attraction to men, knock your damn self out. But you can have a boyfriend and Jesus, too—look at the pope—you just have to do what people have been doing since the first terrified idiot invented the first bullshit religion: improvise. Find yourself a brand-new religion or sect, or jettison the bits of your current faith that don't work for you. If you know anything about the history of Christianity—and it sounds like you don't—then you know that the revisions began before the body was cold. No reason to stop now.
And finally, CAEM, there is no God—you do realize that, right? No hell below us, above us only sky, etc.
I'm an only child, male, born to a single mom. I'm about to turn 21, and I've been with a great guy for over a year. I may be in love. We both have steady jobs, and we want to move in together. He came out to his parents after we started dating, and now I think it's my turn. Problem is, I don't know how to break it to my mother. She's a tiny Mexican woman who isn't afraid of smacking me. I'm afraid to tell her. She always talks bad about the gay lifestyle because she considers herself Christian, although not the churchgoing kind. When and how do I break the news that she's not getting grandkids from me?
Her Only Male Offspring
Your mom is my favorite kind of "Christian." She's not the "churchgoing kind," as that would require some personal sacrifice on her part (of her Sunday mornings, at least). And she certainly didn't let her faith interfere with her sex life (I'm assuming your conception was something short of immaculate*). But when it comes to other people's lives, when it comes to your sexuality and mine, HOMO, then her Christian values kick into high gear. How convenient.
Okay, HOMO, lots of us have come out to hostile moms and dads and watched in awe as they morphed into the loving, supportive parents we didn't know they were capable of being. For some parents the process is quick, for others it's slow, but it can't start until you come out.
Now here's when you come out: The sooner the better—but don't come out to your mother while she has the power to harm you, i.e., if you're dependent on her for a place to live or if she's paying for your education. And here's how: by U.S. mail. Don't give your mother the chance to smack you. Write her a letter, include the contact info for the PFLAG chapter in your area, and tell her you'll discuss this with her after she attends a meeting, not before.
Finally, when I came out to my mother, the first thing out of her mouth was, "I don't ever want to meet any boyfriends." She said the word "boyfriend" like it had been dipped in shit. On her deathbed, my mother told me to tell my boyfriend that she loved him ("like a daughter"). My mom came around, HOMO, and so can yours. But not until you tell her.
My husband and I got married recently. His first pick for best man was his older brother, "St. Paul," a seminary student studying to become a priest. When my husband asked, he started crying and said he had hoped my husband would return to the church. We are both liberal ex-Catholics. For a wedding gift, Paul gave us a book called Man and Woman He Created Them: A Theology of the Body, 700 pages of dogma by JP2. In the five years I've known him, he has rarely said more than one sentence to me, yet he speaks boldly in favor of the church's most conservative doctrines at family gatherings. How much of his bullshit do I have to deal with? I'm a huge fan of yours, and I know that you've had some issues reconciling your own life with loved ones within the Catholic Church. Your advice would be appreciated.
The Schismatic
Man... so intolerant.
I'm talking about you, TS, not your brother-in-law. Don't get me wrong: Your brother-in-law sounds like total douchedrizzle. But he has a right to his opinions and a right to express them. You have a right to your opinions, too, of course, and just as much a right to express them. When St. Paul goes off on premarital sex or the ordination of women or the gays and their Prada loafers, smile and tell him he's full of shit. You don't see him too often, right? Tolerate his bullshit—that's what family does—and count your blessings.
And don't complain about every word that comes out of his mouth and then gripe about how little he has to say to you.
* Note to Bill Donohue: Yes, I've confused the virgin birth with the Immaculate Conception. So sue me, motherfucker.
Comments (188) RSS
Great as always, Dan! Telling off Christians is just what I needed this week to vent some frustration -- now I do it vicariously through you.
Virgin birth... I have to laugh.
Also, as a heads up to CAEM - your religion clearly isn't a "rock in a time of storm" right now.
ps As a half-convinced, (non-practicing) raised Protestant with seriously laissez-faire Hindu/Buddhist/futurist tendencies, it gives me great pleasure to inform you that I have made a part-time career of betting my Catholic* friends that they are wrong in thinking that the Immaculate conception refers to the virgin birth of Christ. It's so satisfying to get hammered on cocktails bought for me by rueful catholic buddies.... try it you'll like it!
* TRIVIA NOTE! Oxford Dictionary definition of small-c "catholic" (what the word meant BEFORE the Church of Rome did its thing): all-embracing; of wide sympathies or interests; of interest or use to all, universal.
Immaculate Conception: Most christians believe that Mary was conceived/born without sin -- helps lend credibility to the Jesus' mother thing. Remember that they believe that everyone, at birth, inherits Adam and Eve's original sin that the committed by listening to the 'talking snake' as Bill Maher irreverently refers to it. The "immaculate conception" gives Mary a loophole so that Jeezus isn't born with sin too. Make sense? Not really? Bingo.
Virgin birth: this is where JC is born to Mary without her having "known" a man. Don't laugh, it happens. Look up the term parthenogeneis and the lizard genus Cnemidophorous as an example. It doesn't happen in HUMANS, but it happens.
Also, I'm sick of all this crap from religious folks for whom religion is therapy, or has use value - his religion is his rock in times of trouble? Whatever. How about believing out of conviction rather than need, rather than weakness, rather than desire for community? You can get similar help by joining a book club.
The most hilarious one was reported in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology and related the case of a young woman with congenital absence of the vagina who was stabbed in the stomach by a jealous suitor who caught her giving head to someone else.....and was delivered by C-section 9 months later. Apparently semen in a stomach with a stab wound can travel through the abdomen to the ovaries. Astonishing but true -- you can look it up.
Another was documented in British law in an aristocratic divorce. Lady X accused her husband of impregnating her via "Hunnish practices" and produced a doctor to testfy that her hymen was intact at her delivery. Her marriage was annulled on grounds that it was never consummated.
I recommend if anyone wants to laugh until they cry/pee themselves/literally ROTFLtheirAO to listen to the call and response from this week's podcast where the guy calls in about the dog licking the cum off his hand. That has to be the funniest thing I have ever heard.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that one day in the future we see CAEM and TS's brother-in-law on the youth pastor watch.
I enjoyed the theme as well, but that first response was a little on the harsh side. Not that I don't think what was said needed to be said, but couldn't it have been said in (at least in the start) a slightly more gentle fashion. Clearly Dan likes to vent, and just as clearly we all like to read/listen when he does, but I have to believe that helping the person asking for advice is a goal in there somewhere. I can't see this advice bringing anything but despair. I'm willing to believe that CAEM (gay or not) is going to have to suffer some despair before he finds happiness (don't we all?), but I think that fact could have been delivered with a little more empathy or at least sympathy. Sure, maybe he's hurting because he's being pigheaded, but it's not entirely by choice, and anyway who cares? He's hurting. Don't people who are hurting and reach out for advice in such a polite and careful manner deserve a little compassion?
He says he is "rational enough...," and that he will roast in hell or whatever "in the teachings of my particular religion...."
If you're so rational, then you should realize that you won't roast in hell BECAUSE your cult teaches that. You will either roast in hell or you will not roast in hell, whether or not you believe it and whether or not your cult teaches it.
Hint: the briefest reflection will make clear to you that no one is going to roast for anything, because no one is going anywhere. This is all there is!
P.S. Your priest knows this, too.
Granted, most fundamentalists/Mormons/Catholics/JW/whoever I'm leaving out have to have someone to hate and vilify, but they're not getting it from the Bible, just their own translation and hate-infused lens.
Pissed-off redneck: Hey buddy we're Christians and what you said offended us!
Bill: So? Forgive me then.
I am a Christian. I was born in NY, but live in the south. I go to a Baptist church down here that is filled with ... gasp ... liberals, homosexuals, environmentalists, and feminists. I know, right? Jesus is totally going to firebomb the place.
Dan, religious people ARE NOT ALL THE SAME. Yes, some of us are jerks. You know what? Some of us aren't. Stop being so willfully ignorant. And you have no more proof that there is no God than I do that there is. It's an opinion based on faith or the lack thereof.
CAEM - God made you and God loves you. God gave us these bodies and these hormones and these minds. Jesus never said one word about homosexuality and didn't say much more about heteroseuxal sex. Jesus talks about love, compassion, unselfishness, and joy. You can enjoy sex. You can enjoy your body. Don't use sex to hurt people or control people. Don't use sex to forget God. Keep praying, but don't pray for God to remove your desire ... He won't because He loves you.
On second thought, I'd have given plastered him as well!
While conception resulting from anal sex (through an EXTERNAL pathway; semen can drip) is not unknown, it seems at least as likely that Lady X simply paid off the doctor, or fooled him with a false hymen, as women have been taking advantage of male ignorance of female sexual anatomy by doing for thousands of years.
My mother is coming for a visit next week, I hope you don't mind if I borrow your line:
"But when it comes to other people's lives, when it comes to your sexuality and mine, HOMO, then her Christian values kick into high gear."
Not that she reads Savage Love or anything, but I'll change it to sound like it's coming from me.
1) God made you the you are and loves you that way. If you're Christian, you'll see that God doesn't have much to say about who you love, only how you approach love. It's his followers that have something to say about who. But, frankly they're a bunch of judgmental, fearful, powermad humans and you don't have any particular obligation to listen to them. If you're not acting on your desires in a way that hurts others, if you're doing so being mindful of a need to treat your partner as you would want to be treated, and if you are acting with love, you should be cool with God. It's up to you to decide whether you have a religious obligation not to celibacy but to testifying to your fellow believers about the faultiness of their assumptions.
2) You and your religious authorities are right, and God made you and some other people in such a way that you desire love and intimacy but only in a way that you're forbidden to express. If that's true then...that's incredibly, pointlessly cruel. I don't think a being like that deserves my love and loyalty, or yours. And if you're worried about torments too grotesque to mention...the other option is doing what the bully wants and then spending the rest of eternity at his side watching him throw a fit and punish anyone like you that didn't cut themselves off from love. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like any paradise I'd want to be a part of.
I find the alternative more likely, since I work at Planned Parenthood, where we've had girls with intact hymens come in pregnant through dry-humping, for lack of a better term. And in one case, where the girl's religion made it important for her to have an intact hymen before marriage (I know, I know - tampons, horseback riding, but it was still her request) the doctor was able to perform the procedure without disturbing that sacred little flap-o'-skin. Not trying to say anything about the Virgin Mary now...
For the record - I'm your average liberal British girl. I don't go to church, I haven't made up my mind about my spiritual beliefs yet, I'm a big fan of all the science stuff. I'm not defending religion from a personal standpoint; my mother used to be Catholic and my dad is Jewish. I've seen the kind of intolerant dickweeds religion can spit out.
I just don't see how an atheist who goes "what, you're *religious*? Pfft, then there's no point in talking to *you*, as you're self-evidently stupid" is any different to the Christian who goes "what? *Not* religious? Well, there's clearly no help for you; you'll burn in hell". It's the same kind smug intolerant bullshit, no matter which side it's coming from.
Since you know the acronym of the mom's condition, then surely your knowledge of anatomy will demonstrate you that one or two stab wounds to the belly, anterior to posterior, could perforate a full stomach without damaging an artery. As to whether or not sperm could survive stomach acid, that's the wonder of the story---apparently they did (but then the author makes it clear that they weren't in the stomach long before she was stabbed). BJOG at one time was a great source for weird and wonderful stories like this.
As for the British case, of COURSE she could have lied. That is, in fact, my point. What makes you think people aren't lying about Mary too? On the other hand, I have treated a pregnant woman, a Saudi, with an imperforate hymen, not FGN, so there you are: life is truly stranger than our textbooks let on.
p.s What's with the "sic?" Unfamiliar with ballet? Google it!
been there and done him in minneapolis
The South African case is elusive: because it is old, and because the Journal's search engine relies on title words (there are not titles to the Letters).
Still working on it...
Do you honestly think that upon learning of someone's devotion to a violent, divisive, and largely intolerant cult-dogma that I should be welcome to their opinions about how I should be living my life? Have you considered that because of the endless persecution and accusations of immorality projected by christians and other religious devotees, people such as myself make snap-second decisions about emotional and social profiles? You can gasp in shock that I would not want to get into a discussion about morality with a christian all you want, but it's a reaction to a lifetime of bearing witness you YOUR people's self-righteous bigotry. I am just as happy to ignore you and your delusional D&D land of make-believe.
I quote here (since you cannot access this journal without a subscription): "It was submitted from an African developing country and reported on a pregnancy that occurred in a young woman with agenesis of the vagina who was having oral sex with a man who was not her usual partner. As the man climaxed, her usual partner arrived and stabbed her in the abdomen. Her stomach was lacerated and its contents spilled into the peritoneal cavity. The author reported that a pregnancy ensued, several pigs and cattle were exchanged to secure a marriage, and a birth by cesarean delivery later occurred."
Now Shoshannah, I will grant you that as a woman I find violence against women indefensible (Hell! I find violence against people of all genders indefensible)...but...can you think of this case without even the tiniest bit of mirth?
CAEM, I'm just one of many people that embraces both my religion and progressive values. If you want to, you can be another. There are plenty who will support you.
Religious guilt can be really intense and overwhelming. If he's anything like me, he's had a lifetime of guilt and garbage put on him by his family (even those who are well-meaning) and church community. The church has shamed him into believing that homosexuality is dirty and wrong. That kind of guilt trip doesn't go away overnight.
I"m mostly straight, but have bisexual tendencies. I've made out with a few women (years ago, though-no recent experimentation) and enjoy lesbian porn. I think women are beautiful, but it's taken years for me to admit to myself that I even like the idea of sex with another woman. It's taken an abundance of reading, meditating, therapy, visits to a UU church and Dan Savage columns for me to be ok with my sexuality. The head trip that my religious upbringing put on me was incredibly emotionally scarring (in more ways than just sexually). The guilt and shame made me so repressed that I was in denial about my attraction to women.
So, in short, I think Dan was right on the money. He has probably had enough letters like these to recognize a repressed gay guy with religious baggage when he sees one. There are probably plenty more people out there just like CAEM who not only have to deal with the societal taboo of being gay, but the religious implications as well.
Good luck CAEM! You're not alone. There are others just like you.
He says he gets solace from his religion, it's a rock, a home, and a source of strength. Dan, don't be so quick to dissmiss this side of it. But if this strength comes at the cost of his inner being, then it's not religion, it's an addictive drug, offering the same old anxiety/relief cycle as any other addiction.
Perhaps he could separate the religion from the community? Maybe it's the community that's his rock, not the belief system itself. Even if he's Catholic, there are many diverse groups within Catholicism which may be more accepting of his feelings - even if they might guide him not to act on them fully. He needs a way to meaningfully participate in this great spiritual community of his.
The Catholic notion that even thoughts are "sinful" is so pernicious I can't even begin. We don't have much control over the thoughts that bubble to the surface of our consciousness, although we do have control over how much we choose to consciously entertain those thoughts once they're recognized. Most of the thoughts I fight against are tendencies towards harboring excessive resentment - not sexual fantasies.
A better spiritual practice is one that accepts one's inner thoughts but which encourages "right action" - whatever that may be. Right action for me would include honesty, courtesy, responsibility, etc. So I can think inside my head "You are a bitch" but as long as I don't say it, I haven't done anything to regret. If I go home and brood about it all evening, that's not so great. And this can be done by atheists who only believe in psychology, just as well as by deeply devout religious believers.
The post was complete and utter b.s. First, belief based on *conviction* (defined as "fixed or firm belief") is exactly why there's religious bigotry. Someone makes something up then tells others that what they think doesn't matter because the truth has been written down in a prophesy, treatise or catechism. It is in the *need* that the true God exists. Those who seek fulfillment for their personal *needs*; those who have the wherewithal to question, are often those who are wisest about faith and religion. Those who spoon up the dogmatic *convictions* of their elders are the belt-wielding, Bible-spouting bastards.
Second, after that nonsense was addressed, there are people out there for whom religion (i.e. faith in a supernatural benevolent being) is valuable, is a rock and a foundation. How in the world can believing in a God of Creation, who made you and *loves* you, not be valuable? There have been times in my life where I've thought that *only* God loves me. This is the rock of which CAEM speaks... that our Creator is not flawed and since He made us in His image, we are not flawed. Reconciling this *extremely* valuable message of love with his community's assertion that his sexual urges are fundamentally evil is what CAEM is trying to do.
CAEM, you were made in the image of you God. You were created out of His love for you. I spent years teaching Catholic Catechism and here are a few messages I've took from that on my journey of faith. First, nothing you hear and nothing you think is sinful; we may be surrounded by epitaphs of sin, but until you act, no sin has been committed. So, cut yourself a huge amount of slack for what you're thinking. Second, the only thing Christ ever asked of us where to keep the commandments holy and to remember his commandment of love: "Love one another, as I have loved you." Not "keep your dick in your pants," not "follow my purported messengers blindly," not "self-flagellate until you're black and blue." Simply, love. So, when you finally accept that what you're thinking is not sinful and you make a decision about how to act, the only thing God asks of you is that *what* you do is filled with respect for *yourself* and for your fellow man. Please note that first love has to come from yourself *to* yourself. If this ingredient is missing, you'll never be reconciled to who you really are. If this ingredient is missing, you'll behave like a bulimic coming off a starvation streak: gobble everything in sight and not come up for air until your self-loathing outweighs your temptation.
Hey CAEM,
God gifted you with a brain, use it and start studying. You'll find that their is an incredible difference of opinion amongst denominations, theologians, and scholars. Your faith, your devotion, is to God, not to religious text, place of worship, or tradition. Your salvation is found in the relationship you have with God, it will always be deeply personal, unique, and tailored to the relationship you share. I'm going to assume that Savage is correct about your situation, as he has your actual letter and could confirm with you. While, I disagree with Savage, I believe God is real and there is both heaven and hell, I agree with him that you have this one life here and now. You must come to peace with yourself and live it with integrity. So, start reading. Here is two places you can start:
You can read about Rev. Mel White (at Soul Force), his life story can offer you comfort.
Best wishes.
So... CAEM, wake up and choose to be free, because you only have a few years left to live. Then there's a big nothingness.
Quit saying "first" like it's an accomplishment. You sound like an idiot, no matter what comes after.
Thou dost protest too much. Sounds to me like you've run into one kind of religion and decided they're all like that. To so easily dismiss a belief that something out there is bigger than you, that you (even YOU) don't know absolutely everything, well, you just stay with your beloved book club. Enjoy the challenge of reading something someone else says and then attacking it because you know better. Me, I'm going to allow myself to believe, even if I don't understand it and it doesn't match up to rational thought. Much more interesting.
Thanks for stickin' it to the hypocritical religious types, Dan.
Well telling CAEM there is no God isn't going to help him beleive that he can have God and still be who he is. I think it might be better to give him some religious sources that are affirming of who he is. I'm ex-catholic, now a member of the United Church of Christ, and I think having a church family who supports you can be good for people who are religious. http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/.
While that might help in the short term, in the long term everyone would be better off not believing in God, gods, or other superstitions.
Anyway, though, I'm not trying to convert or convince you of MY truth; my main goal is to show you that people of faith are not wasting their time; that a relationship with God is one of the most important relationships a person can have. I can see how atheists would reject that idea, but look at the rate of divorce, and how often you've ever broken up with your "best friend", and how often parents alienate their children for some perceived slight and tell me that believing in unconditional love from any quarter isn't BETTER.
Um, it may be "opinion" if you're talking about a God that watches and takes no part in the events of the universe. Don't imply that the "exist" / "doesn't exist" opinions are equally probable, however, just because the improbable hypothesis cannot be tested.
As for a God that intervenes, well, we've seen plenty of evidence that miracles, Zeus' lightning, etc are in fact easily explainable. There's no good evidence for any miracles, really... or the Bible stories... and if one wants to believe God directed the big band and evolution and the bible is just made up, well, one wonders why God took so many billions years and extinctions and false starts to get to humans, then waited hundreds of thousands of years to let them in on the secret, then could only redeem them by torturing and executing his "only child" (he should see a fertility specialist!)... well, I guess then its an opinion that I'm not made of antimatter.
Face facts: everyone is an atheist about ALL religions or about all but the one they favor--and if they came around and finished off that last 1% or so we'd all be happier.
How about, instead, thinking of faith as a way of life; as a way to respect others and respect yourself. A way to love your spouse (whichever sex either one of you may be) and raise your children to respect other people.
People seem to have this messed-up idea about God, that he's some parent on high ready to come down and give us the spanking of our lives if we don't toe the line. Maybe that's how the Hebrews wrote about God, but Christ had a different message. Since *plenty* of my atheist friends can argue morality outside of the religious box and secular humanism until they're blue in the face, atheism shouldn't be an excuse to live an immoral life. I can only think that the fervently religious and atheists alike seem to only be concerned about what, if any, is that "final reward" as if living a good life isn't reward enough.
Are you worried that you'll believe your whole life in a God, then die and say WTF!?! where's my harp and cloud? First, do you really think there's some magical dimension that houses simpering and insipid people in a state of spiritual bliss? Do you think that you get to keep your consciousness after you die? The answer is, no. Our souls are borrowed for the extension of our life and return to God at the end of it. There isn't any sort of embodiment of who you are after death (the first big divorce from my faith in Catholicism here). Second, don't worry, because whether I'm right or the atheists are right, you'll never think a thing and you lived a good and valuable life.
Beyond that--you are right that relationships wax and wane all the time including those people have with God. And you seem to believe he tosses you in the garbage if you happen to get hit by one of his lightning bolts on an off day, but you fly to loving heaven if you choose a movie over golf because of the threatening weather, and reconcile the next day? What of the millions that died before the God of the jews revealed himself? Children who die at birth and can't know him? Hmm? They get pardons?
Do you WANT to believe in this kind of a system? But hey, at least you have a positive attitude.
Did I say this? No, I said: "Even disbelieving in Him, denouncing Him and rejecting Him causes not His love to flee and He mourns the loss of a soul if one dies before reconciliation. (Nota bene: Catholics and other organized Christian religions do acknowledge that if one dies in this spiritual state then they can never be connected with God.)"
What I said was He continues to love even those who disbelieve (or even hate) Him, not that He tosses them in the garbage. What I said was a lifetime of rejection will be forgiven in even a moment of reconciliation.
*GOD* never turns his back on us; *We* turn our back on Him. The reasoning behind the dogmatic belief that those who chose to disbelieve God don't go to "heaven" is that they've never turned toward the God that will give it to them before they died. (We were given free will, remember?)
But I never said I believed in heaven either, did I? I said, "Our souls are borrowed for the extension of our life and return to God at the end of it. There isn't any sort of embodiment of who you are after death (the first big divorce from my faith in Catholicism here)." Which is clearly derisive of that dogmatic belief there's clouds, harps and halos or fire, brimstone and torture soon after we die.
Criminy, read my posts before flaming me. I was raised Catholic and even taught Catholic Catechism. I went to a Catholic College and took extensive religious studies classes. I'm a devote believer in the God Christ describes and it makes me a better person. I have absolutely no issue with atheism or atheists. That's between you and your (non)God. It doesn't hurt me any if you disbelieve. What I take issue with is you virulently disagreeing with me without proper facts of the issues (i.e. a basic knowledge of Christianity outside of the fundementalist hoo-ha you were fed since birth) and without proper reading comprehension.
The fact that we have a tendency to remember the finger pointers who threaten us with Hellfire doesn't help. Similarly the fact that we remember atheists who decree that God is impossible, doesn't help the tendency to presume that atheists are as unreasonable (or rather dependent on faith) as the religious. Regarding this later issue, let me clarify the common atheist position:
Firstly, there's no such thing in the physical world as proof, or rather prove beyond doubt, which are reserved for abstract sciences such as logic or mathematics. But even gravity which seems certain, or the solidity of electromagnetism, are proven only beyond reasonable doubt. These are theories that are honored as laws since the evidence of their certainty is overwhelming, the models of them we use to predict outcomes work with unerring accuracy. So proof of God's existance or non-existence is impossible; evidence of God's existence, while possible, remains fruitless to this day.
That said, Atheism is really about skepticism, though interestingly, this is the one unforgivable sin in Christianity, which is why they tend to be at odds. Rape, mass murder, torture, unjust warfare, all are forgiven by the Christ, but doubt is not. That said, atheism is about not accepting any explanation of events or phenomena without some evidence to support it; it's the principle of Occam's Razor; we associate events with causes already seen unless those too defy explanation.
And we're not afraid to say we don't know.
Concerning the appearance of artifice in the universe, As Richard Dawkins put it, cranes, not skyhooks; we look for how they could have developed within this manifold before we seek explanations outside of it.
This is why I clarify my own position as that of naturalism, not the belief that God does not exist, but that God does not exert influence upon this world. To date, no evidence has challenged this hypothesis. And upon new evidence that cannot be reasonably justified any other way, I'd rethink my position. In actuality is the way of atheism.
One of the best-written and intelligent posts yet to explain, define and defend atheism.
I'm not going to proselytize or defend my position; I just wanted to say that respectful, intelligent discussion where neither tries to change the other's mind but instead tries to explain and convey their position to achieve mutual understanding should always be goal when two people of a dissimilar mind should meet.
Thank you.
It's not clear that CAEM is gay. As others have commented, he says he has "certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have". I assumed he was referring to masturbation. Your jaded self is bombarded with letters describing arcane and bizarre sexual practices, so you may not have considered how normal masturbatory urges could torment CAEM. Masturbation and enjoying sexual fantasies are considered sins by the Catholic church.
I don't think anyone would dispute that most men, especially young ones, are "tempted" by masturbatory impulses, fantasies and desires for sex regardless of marital status.
CAEM asks, "How does one prepare for a life of celibacy and solitude?" Why do you assume his "shameful" secret is homosexuality? He refers to you as a " so-called expert on sex and sexuality," not homosexuality.
Since he hasn't discussed his sexual desires with any clergy or co-religionists, he may have a very distorted view of healthy sexual impulses ("healthy" not implying either sexual preference).
What a hypocrite you are! You exhibit the black-and-white thinking you condemn. Religion and sexual enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. God's first commandment to Adam & Eve is "Be fruitful and multiply". Hello! And contrary to the inferences made by some pious folk, I don't recall a wedding ceremony in the Garden of Eden.
I'm not particularly religious, but I found your response offensive on many levels. Insulting others' religions - unless they pose a direct threat to me or others - is rude and unnecessary. To quote you again, Dan, "Get over yourself, faggot".
It's not clear that CAEM is gay. As others have commented, he says he has "certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have". I assumed he was referring to masturbation. Your jaded self is bombarded with letters describing arcane and bizarre sexual practices, so you may not have considered how normal masturbatory urges could torment CAEM. Masturbation and enjoying sexual fantasies are considered sins by the Catholic church.
I don't think anyone would dispute that most men, especially young ones, are "tempted" by masturbatory impulses, fantasies and desires for sex regardless of marital status.
CAEM asks, "How does one prepare for a life of celibacy and solitude?" Why do you assume his "shameful" secret is homosexuality? He refers to you as a " so-called expert on sex and sexuality," not homosexuality. Since he hasn't discussed his sexual desires with any clergy or co-religionists, he may have a very distorted view of healthy sexual impulses ("healthy" not implying either sexual preference).
What a hypocrite you are! You exhibit the black-and-white thinking you condemn. Religion and sexual enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. God's first commandment to Adam & Eve is "Be fruitful and multiply". Hello! And contrary to the inferences made by some pious folk, I don't recall any wedding ceremony in the Garden of Eden.
I'm not particularly religious, but I found your response offensive on many levels. Insulting others' religions - unless they pose a direct threat to me or others - is rude and unnecessary. To quote you again, Dan, "Get over yourself, faggot".
It's not clear that CAEM is gay. As others have commented, he says he has "certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have". I assumed he was referring to masturbation. Your jaded self is bombarded with letters describing arcane and bizarre sexual practices, so you may not have considered how normal masturbatory urges could torment CAEM. Masturbation and enjoying sexual fantasies are considered sins by the Catholic church.
I don't think anyone would dispute that most men, especially young ones, are "tempted" by masturbatory impulses, fantasies and desires for sex regardless of marital status.
CAEM asks, "How does one prepare for a life of celibacy and solitude?" Why do you assume his "shameful" secret is homosexuality? He refers to you as a " so-called expert on sex and sexuality," not homosexuality.
What a hypocrite you are! You exhibit the black-and-white thinking you condemn. Religion and sexual enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. God's first commandment to Adam & Eve is "Be fruitful and multiply". Hello! And contrary to the inferences made by some pious folk, I don't recall any wedding ceremony in the Garden of Eden.
I'm not particularly religious, but I found your response offensive on many levels. Insulting others' religions - unless they pose a direct threat to me or others - is rude and unnecessary. To quote you again, Dan, "Get over yourself, faggot".
It's not clear that CAEM is gay. As others have commented, he says he has "certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have". I assumed he was referring to masturbation. Your jaded self is bombarded with letters describing arcane and bizarre sexual practices, so you may not have considered how normal masturbatory urges could torment CAEM. Masturbation and enjoying sexual fantasies are considered sins by the Catholic church.
I don't think anyone would dispute that most men, especially young ones, are "tempted" by masturbatory impulses, fantasies and desires for sex regardless of marital status.
CAEM asks, "How does one prepare for a life of celibacy and solitude?" Why do you assume his "shameful" secret is homosexuality? He refers to you as a " so-called expert on sex and sexuality," not homosexuality.
What a hypocrite you are! You exhibit the black-and-white thinking you condemn. Religion and sexual enjoyment are not mutually exclusive. God's first commandment to Adam & Eve is "Be fruitful and multiply". Hello! And contrary to the inferences made by some pious folk, I don't recall any wedding ceremony in the Garden of Eden.
I'm not particularly religious, but I found your response offensive on many levels. Insulting others' religions - unless they pose a direct threat to me or others - is rude and unnecessary. To quote you again, Dan, "Get over yourself, faggot".
Uriel, your post was beautiful and intelligent. We may not agree on issues of spiritual belief (and frankly, I was raised in my church to believe that my faith is between me and God alone, and the same goes for everyone else... only God can read a man's heart, the rest of us should STFU), but I respect and applaud you. Thank you.
He's still in his mid-20's, but my guess is that by 35 he'll have realized that what he really wants to do is poke his brethren, and then leave the church. I dunno. We'll see.
That was well said.
I have only one thing to add, and that is from my personal up bringing in the church and personal study. So, there are likely many who disagree with me. Doubt isn't the unforgivable sin, it's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31). Jesus, is gentle with his disciples, especially Thomas, when they doubt and takes pain to help them overcome their doubt. The question then becomes, for me, when I doubt can I humble myself to ask for the faith to believe. Perhaps, this is what jab2009 is referring to when he speaks about turning our backs and there is a burden upon upon us to ask for help with our doubt.
Anyway, I enjoy your posts, and am grateful for the way they stretch me.
For those (like CAEM, perhaps) who are actually interested in exploring how Christian faith and healthy homosexuality can coexist, I highly recommend the documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So." (Website here: http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/inde…)
It's not so hard, I don't think, *if* the attitude you take toward the Bible is that it is a historical text created by imperfect and culturally situated human beings in an effort to reach out to and comprehend the divine, which is impossible to do perfectly since the divine is so very different from the human. Even in texts written with divine inspiration, there's inevitably going to be some human elements creeping in there. Taking that attitude toward the Bible (or any other religious text) means you can shift through it with an eye to what might be an artifact of historical human composition and what might not be, and keep the stuff that's of value while dropping the stuff that made it in there because of prejudice or dated cultural norms. Whether they would articulate it in this way or not, most moderate Christians probably take this sort of approach, I suspect. Where you get into trouble is in insisting that every part of such a text is true on a literal level. If you take that attitude, then there is no way to reconcile any number of accepted modern attitudes and practices with scripture in most religions out there. (I'd say there's also no way to reconcile complex texts like the Bible with themselves, when reading literally, though people do seem to be champs at rationalizing away the evident contradictions.)
I think this is worth pointing out because, whatever the New Atheists would like to see happen, religion is not going away for the majority of humans in the world any time soon. Not for centuries at the earliest, I'd say, if at all. So encouraging moderate forms of religion is more productive in the long run, I think, than insisting that people have to throw the whole thing out entirely. If that's the choice you give people, most people will choose not to throw it out because they need it. They are simply not going to look into the void, no matter what.
Also, I have a friend with a little Mexican single mother who didn't come out to her until he was 29--instead, he moved to Seattle, hours away from his mom, and lead his life. Unfortunately, it made them grow painfully apart and by the time he told her, she admitted she "always knew", and accepted him in love. So TELL her, I agree Dan.
also, why do some people's comments come out in tiny type?
doctor my eyes
I also suspect Cary Tennis will ultimately come to the same conclusion -- that as long as what you want to do involves consenting adults, you're probably in the wrong religion. And I think maybe you have that suspicion too, which is why you're writing to advice columnists.
I don't think Dan's advice is bad, just lacking in sympathy.
kim in portland, you're absolutely correct. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is stated to be the one unforgivable sin, which is only commonly interpreted to be doubt or denial of Jesus as the son of God. Personally, I find the nature of such blasphemy to be terribly obtuse, not necessarily being denial or doubt of the Christ, certainly not necessarily meaning Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.
Interestingly, when I was a young adult I (at recommendation by religious friends) prayed and begged the Christ to enter my soul and bring me understanding. The epiphany I gained that night was, rather, there are an infinite number of points between fundamental Christianity and hard atheism (thought it might also have been there are an infinite number of possible beliefs other than fundamental Christianity and hard atheism). While I did not find Jesus in the evangelical sense, it did put me on my present spiritual path, and as far as I'm concerned have God's blessing to walk it.
Martychan I've also noticed the personal nature of the relationship between God and the individual, at least in Protestant denominations of Christianity. This implies a personal responsibility to understand and interpret scripture, contrast to blindly allowing a given minister or church to tell you what to think. (Doing so is the traditional definition of sloth, incidentally.) Hence those who choose to justify their bigoted viewpoints by the bible are personally responsible for their intolerance. Catholicism sidesteps this issue by re-institutionalizing prayer as a tradition of the Church, so they get to place blame of their intolerance on the head of the Pope.
jab2009, I agree, and try to live by the same precept that the best we do is to convey comprehension of our positions; it's then respectful to let those you've done so decide for themselves. I don't always succeed (in my efforts to adhere).
I'm glad you found your path. We have much in common, faith wise.
Thank for your kind words of encouragment.
Tolerance of religion means not shutting down the churches in the neighborhood and letting them go about their inane business.
Criticizing them for mental terrorism is not intolerance. Its a predictable form of discourse coming from those who find the religious message nonsense.
If the religious folks kept their views out of public discourse, then railing against them publicly would be impolite.
However, since religions want both freedom and a public face, what they also must accept is people calling them on their bullshit.
that is all
And, isn't False Hymen a Joan Jett song?
i love the first response... though I have to disagree - there DEFINITELY is no god (as in, i agree but more vociferously)
I too think Dan was a bit harsh (but when isn't Dan a bit harsh?) but I do think he was totally correct in assuming the guy is gay and his advice was right on!
I was born into the Christian faith and followed it until roughly the age of eight, when my pastor retired from his duties. When he left, I found that the spark of my faith had severely diminished, and over the following years, I moved further and further away from God in the Christian sense and began to explore other faiths and belief systems, searching for that spark again.
Now, seventeen years later, I proudly call myself Christian once more, but I've come back to my faith armed with insight that I would never have gained had I not turned my back on God for so many years and gone off to learn on my own. While I may be quite unconventional in my beliefs, I will agree with every other Christian that has posted here and say that God's message is about love for both yourself and your fellow man - if you show those around you love, acceptance and understanding and you keep the Lord in your heart with all that you do, then I seriously doubt He has any issues with your particular methods. After all, it's the message that matters.
That said - Great column as always, Dan. Can't wait for next week! :)
" And you have no more proof that there is no God than I do that there is. It's an opinion based on faith or the lack thereof."
The inability to see, hear, smell, detect using instrumentation, or mathematically extrapolate any gods is actually quite a lot of evidence that there is no such thing. Proof? No, it's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, because new evidence could always come to light. But until you can provide that evidence, it is ONLY rational to not believe in the undetectable thing.
The only evidence that we have of gods is via the people who "just know in their hearts", and, funny thing, all of these people who have access to Ultimate Truth via their deeply personal faith. . . well. . . they believe different things. Different gods, different "truths". So, at least most of these people with their deeply-held and conflicting convictions have to be wrong. You're sure about Jesus, some other guy on the other side of the planet is sure about Mohammed, and I am laughing at you both.
Let me say, I don't think that rational is the only way to be. Religious people like to claim that atheism is my religion, or that science is my religion. No, that's not true. I'm an atheist and a scientist because rationality leads you there. Rationality is my religion. My only justification for it is via more rationality, which is circular reasoning.
If people are happily irrational, I'm cool with that. Whatever peanut butters your jelly, man. If you think 2+2 might be 6 tomorrow and 38 the day after that, I don't fucking care. I just want religious people to stop CLAIMING that they are as rational as the rest of us. You can't have it both ways.
Jab2009, you wrote, "He mourns the loss of a soul if one dies before reconciliation." Seems to imply a chance was missed, and permanent harm done. Soul was LOST. So if you are "unlucky" enough to die on an off day, disfavoring God, you're LOST. If you were reconciled that day, you get eternal bliss. Would not a human who failed to forgive a loved spouse who died before an apology could be made be viewed as rather nasty? And I say "unlucky" because God could intervene in your fortunes until the day you were going to reconcile.
Over and over, the issue is this: why believe in something supernatural when there are so many better explanations, no evidence, and the counter position that the certainty of faith, experienced currently and throughout time, has been stupendously wrong over and over even in the opinion of the devout? What does the born again think of the certainty of the 911 bombers? They were wrong, so why trust their own unsupported faith? The one that say they'll be saved because they belong to the right faith--lucky that they were born somewhere it was taught, right?
that being said, that fag needs to get the jesus stick out of his ass.
that being said, that fag needs to get the jesus stick out of his ass.
Dan clearly stated that CAEM should act on his desires ONLY if they're ethical and with someone who also desires the same thing.
But nice homophobic slur, throwing in the "dog" and "disgusting" to boot.
Yes, CAEM is gay (straights don't require a life of celibacy). His "certain desires that almost all 20-year-old males have" sentence was just not clearly written, and refers to sexual urges.
That letter could have come from me 20 years ago. I was a tight-ass christian boy who secretly prided himself in being better than everyone else. But once I admitted to myself that I was gay (at age 28) I went thru a rough spell of everything I believed being questioned, and came out the other side only a little worse for wear. I still question my religious beliefs but haven't thrown it all out.
I don't see that. I'm a woman and I've been reading his column religiously for 11 years.
He yells at everyone - men, women, intersex, black, white, gay, straight, bi, poly, mono, married, single, divorced.
I've also never seen him miss the mark. I've seen him stumped, but he always admits this and asks others for help in advising his querent.
at first i thought this statement was needlessly obvious. then i quickly remembered it was dan's column, and not dr. laura's.
Yes, and after having learned this a few years ago I found it quite amusing to use the phrase "catholic community of Catholics" in a final exam essay in my freshman year Intro to Religion class, when speaking of "all the Catholics in the world."
Look, CAEM, your god and everything you think is holy results from an effective marketing scheme made by a bunch of perverted old men who want to take your money, control your life, and rape your children. Literally.
Stupid beliefs like yours are why God made hashish and psilocybin and instructed us to use them in Genesis. Personally, I recommend going camping, getting up before the sun, and taking a bunch of mushrooms. Then sit by a river smoking hashish hashish while the sun rise and talk directly with god about your problem.
Look, CAEM, your god and everything you think is holy results from an effective marketing scheme made by a bunch of perverted old men who want to take your money, control your life, and rape your children. Literally.
Stupid beliefs like yours are why God made hashish and psilocybin and instructed us to use them in Genesis. Personally, I recommend going camping, getting up before the sun, and taking a bunch of mushrooms. Then sit by a river smoking hashish while the sun comes into view as the earth spins around it. As each second stretches into a blissful infinity filled with colors and light that look like music sounds, you can talk directly with God about your problem. It's that easy.
And to everyone who seems to have a hate-on about religious people? Yes, I know some Christians are self-righteous assholes who try to shove things down your throat (and not in a fun way), but others (like, say, my mom, who's been a deacon at her church) actually are reasonable, sane, intelligent people who do their best to do good in the world and quite frankly couldn't care *less* about what one consenting adult does with another consenting adult (barring cheating)...
And while, yes, I cannot prove that there is a higher power... you also can't prove that there *isn't* one, and it is not unreasonable to surmise that the various somewhat improbable events that led to us being here were nudged along by some kind of mind... and you also cannot prove that there is nothing of ourselves that continues after death. Perfectly reasonable of you to live your life under the assumption that there isn't, but it's also perfectly reasonable (provided you're not a fanatic about it) to live under the assumption that there *is* something that will Go On.
I was tempted to also call BS on assuming CAEM is gay, but the 'celibacy/solitude' line lends you cred.
CAEM: you're an asshat; you can't discuss spiritual salvation with anyone, ANYONE, from your spiritual community?
Time to look for a new spiritual community for one thing: if they can't counsel something this, and yet hundreds of other churches can, you are in the wrong org for your soul's needs. Jump ship and find the one that matches your needs better.
If CAEM's relgion is such a "rock" etc. then why is he writing to Dan for advice?
#132 - turn your words around. You cannot and do not know for sure there's a God. If you can have your opinion, then don't call others "idiots" for holding other opinions. Please do not confuse "believe" (faith) with "know" (have evidence). Those of us who find rationality to be evidence of mental capacity question YOUR beliefs, trust me.
Secondly, just because he says he's thinking thoughts 20 year old men usually think, does not necessarily mean what it's meant to mean. He could be going off the fact that most people have homosexual thoughts or fantasies whether they mean to or not. We know that if it was regarding sleeping with women, he would have been more likely than not to find a tactful way to say it, as with masturbation (besides, I don't think there is eternal damnation for jacking off, you're just not supposed to, nor premartial sex). This is something this guy is ashamed and embarassed of, being gay is something a lot of religious people believe is a sin that will lead to burning in hell.
Or, he could have made that statement to justify his own thoughts by saying it's common for guys to think, or he could have purposefully added that to confuse readers.
I do feel the advice was a bit harsh, but sometimes you have to be harsh to get the point across. It can shock someone into waking the hell up and learning to live their life while they have the chance instead of sitting around being miserable.
But that's just my thoughts.
ROTFL at: "There is no God?? I think you are an idiot to state something you could not and do not know. I believe there most certainly is a God. Your the type who if you cant see it you dont believe it... You cant see air, but you know it's there right?"
Listen, it's possible that God is just silent and watching, but its possible Papa Smurf is a spirit as well. Thoughtful hardcore atheists like Dawkins will admit they can't rule out God, but emphasize the the evidence is FAR on the "no God" side. The ONLY stuff (I know of--educate me?) on the "yes God" side is the convenient hospitality of earth and characteristics of the universe--but if it were any other way, we wouldn't be here wondering. And to compare God to air? Seriously? You are aware that air can be felt, weighed, analyzed, partly combusted, liquified, vaporized, humidified, etc, right? Whereas for God, we just have the "everyone is wrong but me" attitude of hundreds of religions. C'mon.
In brief, we may not be able to know "for sure" but we certainly can be confidant that the weight of evidence is far to the "no God" side, just like I'm reasonably sure if I drop my keys they will accelerate toward the center of the earth. Don't imply "We're not sure" is a coin toss.
1) And yet, here you are. Arguing. Or shall we discuss?
2) We're not set in thought. I've changed my mind on bunches of important issues; all it takes is evidence or at least some logic. If there is no evidence or logic, and we are talking about faith/certainty in things for which everything knowable points the other direction... well, there isn't much to argue or discuss if that's the case, right? Not because I'm closed minded but because I'm open minded, and you have nothing to add to my open mind.
I stopped taking people's word in fantastic, unseen, unknowable creatures and events long ago but what drove it home recently was hearing a rape victim describe how she identified the wrong guy despite being face to face with him the whole time. She admits she sees the innocent guy (released after DNA evidence) raping her when she imagines the assault.
Experience misled; science iluminated. And liberated. And then it caught the actual perp. But we can agree on peace and bles--er, well wishes.
Shomondo...it's call the Scientific Method. Go to college (though actually, I think they teach this in middle and high school these days). Study. Learn. Test. Verify!
Can we all agree that whether or not there is a God, most of the people who claim to be christian in public are complete fucking hypocrites? Can we agree that teaching kids they will go to hell for sexual urges is child abuse, even though it's socially tolerated? Can we agree that most people who condemn others to hell are using the same circuits as people rooting for their sports team? Can we agree that any God that is so petty s/he cares about CAEM's sex life is a psychopathic tyrant who is not worth worshipping, no matter how hot a hell s/he will send you to? Can we agree that children absorb religion the same way they absorb the tooth fairy (regardless of the truth of the religion)?
It seems to me there should be lots of points of agreement for everyone regardless of what we all think about the existence of God.
@136: " If he were straight, I'm assuming he would right to someone else. "
So only gay people can be assumed to write to Dan? What, are you NEW here??
"There would have to be something they have in common in order for him to seek advice from him."
See above, AND: advice columnists are NOT defined that way: so then ann landers must have everything in common with the )people she helped? Miss manners must be as rude/crass/gauche as the ignorant masses that write to her? )
You are a circular logic troll. Go back to your loop-de-loop bridge.
@145 - you need to look up atheism and get the definition straight.
@146 - so you don't believe/know that some religions are businesses, and in those cases, god would be invented not to create a myth but to fleece people)? Now who's the idiot...?
@111: I'm still not seeing the full proof, in the letter as published, that CAEM's issue is homosexuality nor that his religion is christian. The issue could still be some taboo kink, or freaky style, adultery, pedaphilia, necrophilia, or swinger culture - many that would land them in hot water with their minister/flock.
- it's just not statedIf there's more to the letter, or if it arrived with pink triangles all over the envelope, then we'd have a little more to work with - - but as is, Dan comes off not smelling great to some readers.
@137 You get +10 Internet Religion Argument Points for mentioning Dawkins. WTG
I had a very frank discussion with God, with my sexual partner (who was even more conservatively raised than I). Guess what? God gave us the urges, so he wouldn't have done that to one and let the other consent if it would lead to this Mythical Roasting Place. I agree, get over yourself; we had to.
AS to coming out, that's always interesting to look at the relationship over time:
My mom at first: Oh, well, Okay I still love you but don't tell people about it. (WTF?!)
Her mom at first: *Falls to ground and starts praying* You can't see her anymore!
My mom a little later: It's just a phase! You're going to hell and I'm just worried about your well-being! You can't see her anymore! Why should you talk on the phone so much? I don't talk to you father that much! (Well, mom, you and dad married to appease God for your pre-marital children and hate each other's guts and cheat and near divorce every chance you get, but whatever....)
Her Mom a little later: We should get you to wear girl's clothes like that girl. (Hee, I'm "that girl?" Sounds like a super hero.)
My mom seven years later (yeah, we're actually still together...): I love her like a daughter now, I'm so happy you have someone who takes care of you. *Sends anniversary cards*
Her Mom seven years later: I'm going to go shopping with her (oh, she uses my name now!). And buy her clothes. Because I can dress HER up like a girl. And I'm okay with it, just don't talk about it around certain ones of my friends....
Progress, slow but works. Hurts sometimes, but you deal with it.
THough I do wish somebody had introduced me to Pflag before I cam out. Would have made things much easier.
I fail to see how an urge toward adultery, swinger culture, or even kink would doom him to a life alone. It's not "adultery or nothing" for anyone I've ever heard of. He might want guys, kids, dogs, dead people or nothing, and that would make more sense. And where do I spend IRAP points?
"God gave us the urges, so he wouldn't have done that to one and let the other consent if it would lead to this Mythical Roasting Place."
I'm totally with you on the wonderfulness of your lesbian urges. BUT, the God of the Bible is a quirky, vindictive, and frequently nasty character. He demands blood sacrifice; he could very well give you an urge you're meant to resist (or, it's your sinful nature / somehow he didn't determine your urges despite being omnipotent). I agree that would make him an unsavory guy to worship, but I know you don't think people with unacceptable, say, violent, urges have God's blessing to follow them. What you realized, instead, was that religion is wrong headed and internally inconsistent--take the final step and toss out the idea of a God watching you and your lover in bed along with all the other nonsense the religion taught you.
Anyone who says the bible is clear on homosexuality hasn't actually read it, or else is lying. Because in the book of Samuel you will find one of the most beautiful gay love stories ever written: David and Jonathan. This is the same David who goes on to become king of Israel. If you follow his story, during his secret affair with Jonathan, God always has David's back, protecting him from peril, and elevating him in political power. But David falls out of grace with God later in life when he has an affair with a married woman, and sends the husband to his death to cover it up. Moral of the story: God is cool with boys sleeping together, but God is not cool with the killing of an innocent person.
It's sort of interesting to juxtapose this story with the position of the Christian right in relation to homosexuals and the Iraq war...
Shomondo @132, jeffsd @146 et. al. One of the problems of trying to prove the existence of God (beyond the issue of the nature of proof, that I discussed above) is the difficulty in getting everyone to agree on the God's qualities. If we define God as one and the same as the universe (or, as speculated in string theory the multiverse, for which we haven't a solidly defined name), then no proof is necessary, since cogito ergo sum equates to cogito ergo Deo. (please forgive my poor Latin.) Similarly, if we define a personal higher power (in the 12-step sense) as one's wise mind (the psychological construct), again we can presume it is there, since evidence of it is manifest. Once we start assigning properties to God to fit the biblical deities, however -- consciousness, omniscience, omnipotence, anthropomorphism, masculinity, interest in human affairs, etc. -- the likelihood of such a construct actually existing as described starts to rapidly decline. In fact, the degree of anthropomorphism described in the old testament counts as evidence that the biblical god is a construct of men, not the other way around. Human qualities emerge from the the nature of human existance. A god without the same needs we have would demonstrate an entirely different set of interpersonal qualities.
This idea, that God may be completely different to Its decription in religious texts is seldom address by the religious activists that seek to demonstrate God's existence. This is a noteworthy oversight, since it's not addressed by some of the strongest Christian-based fronts against science. The Discovery Institute, for example in the promotion of Intelligent Design Theory seeks to prove we couldn't have evolved through random mutations filtered by of a lot of time. They hope to, by doing so, prove the Judeo-Christian dogma. At very best, though, if they could find the signatures of our creators in our DNA, for example, they would only prove our exospermic origins, not that we were divinely created at all.
I would add, Shomondo, faith is less about belief and more about fealty, that is, loyalty to the divine despite how ridiculous it may seem. An Arabian adage illustrates it well, If at noon the caliph says it is midnight, behold the stars!
A relevant adage of a more recent time: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
As for your declared knowledge of the divine I would paraphrase Dawkins in noting the human mind has a great capacity for interpretation.
Rev.Smith @151, why does yonush18 get Internet Religion Argument Points for mentioning Dawkins, but I do not? I mentioned him first.
presently out @155 the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have provisions against sex outside authorized unions, and to differentiate social and worship practices from those of other deities, which have been reinterpreted in contemporary times to proscribe gay relationships. But other than those, are there others? I'm not up on my Hindu dogma, but does it hold anti-gay commandments? Buddhism is notably flexible with their provisions and restrictions. How about Confucianism? Anyone?
How about some rightous anger towards Islam?
The psycho bastard president of Iran, has said "That they do not have gays!" .when laughed at, he asked for "The addresses of these People" . It aint just the catholics that have that market open.
about the only "religion" that has no hang ups about Queer seems to be Buddhism.
How about some rightous anger towards Islam?
The psycho bastard president of Iran, has said "That they do not have gays!" .when laughed at, he asked for "The addresses of these People" . It aint just the catholics that have that market open.
about the only "religion" that has no hang ups about Queer seems to be Buddhism.
Celibacy isn't going to work. All you have to do is google "priest scandal," read "Youth Pastor Watch," or just watch TV to learn that people who try and bottle up a sexual urge lose that fight over and over. ESPECIALLY people who are trying to be celibate (unless you get castrated. That works). Much like judo, if you don't use the momentum of your attacker (your sex drive) to your advantage, you will be crushed. In other words, if you don't find yourself in a mature relationship with another adult, you'll find yourself raping children or at the very least furiously jerking off to hardcore porn all alone in a basement, probably more than a little lonely and committing a sin anyway.
Since you're going to end up apologizing to God for sexual indiscretions one way or another, you might as well pick the ones that do the least harm to others and the most good for yourself.
Repressed homosexuality (or heterosexuality) does not lead to pedophilia. Pedophilia is a pathological compulsion in its own right that starts at a young age. Youth pastor positions and priest positions don't turn people into pedophiles, pedophiles go into these areas because it gives them an opportunity.
While you allude to the changes/revisions in doctrine, and the various resulting sects, it may be helpful to specifically instruct the faithful on the history of their own religions that is all too often a inconvenient lesson. For example the First Council of Nicaea where Christians agreed upon what would become canon, which gospels to include, and which dates to party. Hell, anyone who made the mistake of reading or watching The DaVinci Code should know this.
In the realm of sects, there are plenty of gay friendly churches that do not preach or attempt to convert gays into straights. Even if it's controversial, it's there.
Also, this cat might not be Christian. I know it's easy to get a hard on for Christians in America, especially as an atheist or other group commonly demonized by the Christians in America such as you deliciously dirty homos.
Maybe the kid is Sikh, or Muslim or a Jew. I suppose it doesn't matter, but I think we should not be jumping to conclusions as to his religion.
To "Christians" who whine at criticism: bite me.
And before anyone freaks out on ME and says I'm not "respecting" religions, I'm happy to inform you that I'm an ordained minister with the United Church of Canada. You can have a happy, fulfilling and exploratory sexual life and still have a spiritual/religious connection in life. You just have to be smart and discerning enough to not blindly follow some hypocritical nonsense cult like it sounds CAEM is a member of.
Rock On, Dan!
Sometimes the best advice really is the shortest. Much like:
"Don't eat that."
"Compliment her shoes."
"Send a thank-you note."
The inconvenient truth is that you're right and partly wrong. Repressed homosexuality doesn't make pedophiles, but most of those priests weren't pedophiles.
Lots of male adults lust after adolescents, whether male or female ones, whether they are straight or gay. I DO believe that being gay and tortured may make you choose priesthood and then the position and opportunity might predispose you to young, physically mature males. If you're a wreck a childlike but physically mature person is easier to relate to. Going into the priesthood just to bang some kids seems an awful lot of work and annoyance!
-Catholic, so I can say this
And to answer the inevitable question, I do not support the propagation of ridiculous religious dogma. Religion is still just what it has always been.... a tool to provide order and structure for the masses. It scares the hell out of me to think what the world would be like if all of a sudden people everywhere realized that there were no cosmic consequences for their decisions and subsequent actions. I also don't want to destroy religion because human nature makes that impossible... just look at how well that worked in Communist Russia. I would rather change their views to incorporate more compassionate and rational values.
I don't mean to go off on a rant here... oh wait..
You are doing the right thing!- Anyone intelligent will realize that everyone and everything has to come from some kind of creator! This is First place common sense. Wisdom (Basically the good fear of God) is a gift from God-not given to everyone-which prones you to seek that higher advice for a life lived to the fullest- a life well-lived..not just getting by, but with all God's protection(provision), blessing and True prosperity (The kind that doesn't end suddenly-for some unknown reason).You seem to be seeking so if you have Wisdom -be Proud of it. We know that sooner or later all scorners will be cowering for direction-from God-and that there's always that moment in their life when they all secretly pray ---God---Help ME!!!!!!--The good thing is that he does....So be Encouraged, Be strong and of a Good Courage-as the Bible says---For in Due season you Will have your reward!!!! A Good Reward!!!!! Lose the Bad Fear, Keep the Fear of God (Wisdom), Exhert yourself in Excellence (not perfection!) in the good things you love and are good at --GO after your dreams-including celebrating God in Church on Sunday!- Show him --You are the man who wants to get his approval!!!--and guess what?--You will---"He will chase you to bless you " !!!! "He will order his angels to take charge of you" He will keep you! Sometimes you will feel that you are getting near the perfect girl-- and that will fizz out--but don't be frustrated!--Remember, You're only getting nearer!--Keep pressing on " toward the mark" just like everything else in your life, --and while you are so busy enjoying yourself -- in Doing all the right things--all that Good energy will have to attract Good and The Designated one WIll APPEAR!!!!! Don't forget that awesome undertakings in history are the ones that made history--Such as King James--the man who opposed all --had the courage and strength by God to order that a version of the Bible (closer to the original Hebrew/Aramaic) be made in English from the Geneva translation (before the time Rome translated it into Latin-and some of its plain and simple meaning be lost in complicated translation... )He wanted every common man to be able to have his own Bible to study for himself... Because of this Rome chased him around, trying to kill him and any others who would separate from their religion. Thus, he sent the pilgrims on the Mayflower to colonize America so that simple, uncomplex Christianity would not be persecuted, but so that it could move on--And this is why our country was, in the beginning, the most blessed nation the world has ever known--BUt by the very liberty that we extended to the world, sadly, our own "American Christianity has become overshadowed by new religions practiced" even allowing Roman religions to be practiced-the very religion we as Americans once ran from in England...(read the Mayflower Compact) So if you fall on your way--take a moment--then get back up again!--- Straighten yourself up--"lift up your head"--and get back at it again!--WHo knows what Awesome things God has in store for you!!--WHen you have a great attitude like the one you have!--Praying for you and signing off for now!
you are bragging about/lovin on King James? And his UK-politics-of-the-time-centric PR publishing scam? Seriously?
King 'I'm such a huge fan of the occult I hired Bill fawking Shakespeare to write about witches, Hecate, ghosts and fortune telling and then once the people were glassyeyed over the famous Scottish play, went on to sponsor his entire sex/violence-heavy theatre career with my taxing of the poor peasantry' James? King 'I claim two thrones, Scotland AND england, nay THREE: add ireland, because that's how I roll - big-balled and not trying to make up for any size issues elsewhere, yup, yessiree, trust me.' James? King 'the translators I hired put in little word games and jokes into the bible- like the 42nd psalm just as one example in a thousand- and I was okay with that because I play both sides if you know what I mean' James? King 'Inbred? what's inbred?' James? King 'I wrote the book titled DAEMONOLOGIE, - on how to burn innocent people at the stake for witchcraft ', James? King ' I inspired GUY FAWKING FAWKES & (the terrorism known as the gunpowder plot) because I was hated SO' James?
Yeah, ok.
If you want to revere the Paris Hilton of monarchs, the Carrot-Top of Theology literature, The Joan Rivers of duplicity, then go right ahead and have fun with that.
But methinks your theology needs some QC, Elise. Start by looking up the Hampton Court Conference and the Popish Recusants Act.
And yes, I'm a real reverend, an actual ordained minister, and not one of those mere cheap online knockoffs: I live good, I bring good works to the world, and my conversations with the Great Divine have yielded no evidence that King Jimmie the 6th of Scotland nor the HCC had any business touching the revelations in the Hebrew Bible. Their translation was foremost designed to show off English as a language, promote the pope-hating Church of England and -to a reduced extent- the Puritans (who primarily made up the HCC), and re-inforce the divine right of kings (Jimmie especially) to rule : not to bring more good to the world.
No thanks. Find god in your heart, not in a book.
Holy Toledo Shomondo! Do you know how ridiculous you sound when you put those two sentences back to back? You call Dan an idiot for stating an opinion about something that is not provable, then you proclaim with certainty there is a God, which you could not possibly know for sure.
In my book that's being a hypocrite. I'll take back my harsh words if you admit you are an idiot, or you admit Dan is not an idiot. Either one is fine by me.
And THANK YOU, solid15, for calling the long-winded Shomondo on his / her hypocritical bullshit.
This will set you free:
Matthew 23:9
1 Timothy 4:2-3
Psalms 115:4-8--GOd loves you -his ultimate creation-Man. He has a wonderful mate for you to enjoy all your life with-as seen in all the pattern of life and creation..(A woman!) He thinks you smarter than for you to believe you can talk to wood or metal and think that it will hear you, and yes you can enjoy a wonderful carne asada with your Girl too!
Faith is beliving in God, Religion is man made bullshit!
you see schismatics.... houston has been calling and the Weekly has the answer.
p.s., don't forget to change your name savage.
Around 16, I realized that I could never live up to every last doctrine preached to me (esp the ones I had issues with, for ethical reasons) - Much less expect to get up early every Sunday and go to church 3 times a week, every week, rain or shine, unless I had an actual fever, til the day I died.
So I walked away, and became a serious brat: selfish, hedonistic, thoughtless, even a bit cruel when I felt like it...And why not? I was going to Hell anyway, right?
It took me years to decide that it's possible to be a Good person (in my case still a hedonist, and a nightowl;) -- without being Religious.
Am I going to hell? Who knows? I'm sure my family thinks so (I avoid the topic, to avoid upsetting them.) And personally, I don't worry about it anymore - I no longer believe in a physical Hell. (Honestly: given enough time, logic/reason DO win out over childhood conditioning...and the guilt WILL go away.)
I'm not gay, for what it's worth...I'm a straight girl. Tho the religion/cult I was raised in doesn't allow for homosexuality, either.
I'm just saying that if it's important - truly important - to you to be a Good Person...then maybe spend some time thinking about what makes a person "Good?"
You're already aware you won't be able to be yourself, while sticking to the party line you're being fed...otherwise you wouldn't be seriously considering an unnatural life of celibacy and deprivation. (Which almost no one can maintain for life.)
Please. You'll spare yourself years of being a bitter jerk, and all the guilt that comes from that.
It's not easy. I know. I wish you the best of luck in finding yourself.
(ps - while I agree with Dan, here, YOU don't have to. Why must there only be ONE way? Find your own way...Surely a benevolent Creator, who gave you a mind of your own, would expect nothing less?)
To Dan: Congratulations on coming out of the closet. I had wondered on and off whether you were "this way" for a while, but had not seen you show your true colors until now. At last, you have proudly shown yourself to be a bitter, bigoted anti-religionist hypocrite.
Your "God = the Blue Fairy" remark in last week's column was a big confirmation, but your real coming-out party happened about a month ago when you replied to a young man who is struggling with his deeply-held desire to live chastely for religious reasons.
Dan, this kid came to you warily but with hope, looking for the help he was told only you could give him, on how to live his sexuality in the way he chooses to. He is making a countercultural choice not to let his sexual desire run his life and define his character, and instead to live without genital contact. His choice is different (wayyyyyy different) from your own conventional viewpoint, that one's sexual proclivities define him and that life cannot be happy without indulging them. You might have noted your differences and still given him support, access to resources, the names of groups who affirm their sexual orientation but try to live it out chastely. You might have tapped into your vast knowledge about having sex, and looked for some tips on what to do if a person chooses not to. You might have at least treated the kid with respect and dignity.
Instead you slammed into him with all the vindictive vitriol you feel towards religion, and let him be your whipping boy in place of all those horrible people who dare to disagree with you about what constitutes immorality. You mocked his choices and ridiculed his beliefs. You feigned an openness to pro-gay Christianity, then insultingly declared God dead (on the authority of John Lennon). You were anything BUT "GGG" when it came to responding to his situation; instead you insisted on reframing his problem to suit your values.
God doesn't hate fags, Dan. But Jesus got pretty pissed-off at bigots and hypocrites. Congrats on having the courage to show yourself to be one. Sign me
Sick of Hearing Anti-Religious Propaganda.
PS When sex and religion are pitted against each other, "Religion always loses," you said. "Always." Oh really? So, when religion tells a husband or wife not to fuck the neighbor, religion loses? When religion tells someone to reign in that mix of lust and rage that can end in rape and violence, religion loses? When religion tells a person to save their sexual expression as the ultimate form of intimately giving oneself to another, to be given only to the man or woman to whom they give their whole selves for the rest of their life in marriage, religion loses? Always? There have been no priests, nuns, monks, brothers, or consecrated lay people – no single people trying to live chastely in accordance with God's desire as they understand it, who have lived full and happy lives? No one has ever managed to avoid fucking their brains out before being married? Ever?
Or could it be that you are limiting your frame of reference to your own experience, among your own circle of friends, in your own tiny uber-hedonistic subculture, with your like-minded colleagues who all have made the same decision to drink the Freudian-Flavored Kool-Aid that says no life has meaning without genital sex, and they (if you'll pardon the Biblical reference) "seek to justify themselves"?
First, your suggestion that this kid is expected to be celibate for no other reason than he was born into a bigoted, homophobic cult is beyond idiotic. By that logic a Muslim woman is expected to just bend over and take it if her husband decides, without her consent, to take on more wives? This kid didn't say he can't have "genital contact", he said he has to have no romantic contact with anyone, ever, just because of an accident of being born into the wrong religion. He isn't choosing to "live his sexuality", he's choosing to reject it.
Dan wasn't making this kid a "whipping boy", he was telling CAEM to try and have it all, religion and sex, instead of having to settle for one for no good reason at all. As for "insultingly declaring God dead", you do understand the concept of a joke, right? I mean, you clearly have no sense of humor, but you do know what it is.
As for sex vs. religion. Dan was referring to it in the context of self-denial of all sexual urges (including auto-erotic), not just "genital contact". For the record, people make the decisions regarding rape, infidelity and abstinence based on personal feelings, beliefs and fear of potentially adverse consequences. Not solely based on petrifying fear of the invisible kid in the sky with a magnifying glass burning them into a cinder.
The only person seeking to "justify themselves" her is you. If you want someone to tell you you're right, seek a less open minded, audience. I hear Anne Coulter is always listening.


text:
Hape Toys Money & Banking Toys
Financial acumen is an important life skill. Help your kids get an early start by giving them money and banking toys that teach them the value of a dollar. With cash registers, play dollars, and play coins, they will learn about spending and can hone their math skills. And safes or piggy banks will help your little ones stash away their allowance and learn about saving and managing money.
Hape Toys
$30.00 at Giggle.com
Let's be honest, your Fresh Food Market Stand just isn't complete without a cash register. So complete the set now with this match...ing wooden register, which comes with a scanner to ring up food and grocery items, plus play money to teach your child all about the value of a dollar. Read More
Sponsored Links

subset: commoncrawl


text:
- November 19, 2012
- 6:19 p.m.
- Suggest removal
- Reply to this post
DrPatJr writes:
Best of luck to UTK against UK I recommend Weight Watchers On-Line for the coach. I use it.
Want to participate in the conversation? Become a subscriber today. Subscribers can read and comment on any story, anytime. Non-subscribers will only be able to view comments on select stories.


text:
MUMBAI: In order to decongest three civic tertiary care hospitals-KEM, Sion and Nair, which are forever teeming with patients, the BMC has started making some of their services available at peripheral hospitals. Besides cutting down on patient inflow from distant places, this is also supposed to ensure optimum utilization of infrastructure available at the peripheral hospitals.
The city's largest tertiary care hospital- KEM- has tied up with Shatabdi Hospital in Govandi where the former has started running OPDs as well as performing surgeries. In fact, surgeons from KEM Hospital have already performed three surgeries at Shatabdi Hospital. Kasturba Hospital in Chinchpokli has tied up with BYL Nair Hospital, whereas Mulund's Veer Savarkar Hospital has been linked to Sion hospital.


text:
Hugger Mugger Recycled Yoga Blanket
Item#: HN-HUG023Price:
- Crafted of recycled sweater fabrics
- Ultra-soft for total comfort
- Machine washable
- Dimensions: 59L X 79W inches
- Manufacturer's warranty included
What's Included
Yoga blanket
Wrap up for a peaceful Savasana, with the ultra-soft and comfy Hugger Mugger Recycled Yoga Blanket. Durably crafted of recycled sweater fabrics, this eco-friendly yoga blanket is ideal for all types of yoga and meditation. And, bonus, in bright purple and black plaid, it makes a pretty throw for your home too. This handy yoga blanket is conveniently machine washable.
About Hugger Mugger
Named for their supportive-yet-modest shorts of the same name, Hugger Mugger yoga is dedicated to innovation and improvement of products for yogis amateur and professional. Drawing on founder Sara Chambers's experience in the field of wordworking and materials, they now produce some of the most popular products in the industry: Hugger Mugger Shorts, the Tapas Sticky Mat, and the Hugger Mugger Yoga Strap. The practice of yoga is not a destination, it's a trip towards a healthier, happier life. Hugger Mugger sums it up with their motto, "Celebrate the Journey."
Dimensions & Specifications
59L X 79W in.
Hugger Mugger


text:
As You Like It at TBA - San Francisco
CBTwroteSat, 23 Apr 2011Where is this party and was does it cost $30?
humuswroteFri, 22 Apr 2011enjoy boys. wish i was there!!
JimmyB4GGLwroteWed, 06 Apr 2011i was wondering if this was about to go down.... hell yea
mrbispowroteTue, 05 Apr 2011boo yah!
Click here to view the full thread


text:
Lets you make a WordPress page (or other content type) link to an external URL of your choosing, instead of its WordPress URL.
processing, and time-limit the cache.switch_to_blog()
is used... it now uses $blog_id
to keep their caches from stomping on each other
Requires: 3.4 or higher
Compatible up to: 3.6.1
Last Updated: 2013-7-15
Downloads: 1,334,039
0 of 9 support threads in the last two months have been resolved.
Got something to say? Need help?


text:
Posted: 1 hour ago
Date: 06.12.13
Reblog Post
Reblogged from: der-prinz-aus-stahl
Uploaded by: white-people-are-nazis
Content source: white-people-are-nazis
Turkish "community leader" boasts of imminent takeover of Germany by immigrants
Kenan Kolat, chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany [TCG], emphasises, at the TCG meeting in Baden-Württemberg, that 80% of the German population below six years of age is of immigrant origin. Kola: "In twenty years immigrants will make up 75% of the population. Germany must see this reality." These people will rule and lead Germany, emphasis Kolat and aims his words at the parties who will form the next government: "Dual citizenship is the most important item on the TCG's agenda. The SPD [Socialist party] has promised it to us. If the SPD breaks its promises for a second time and disappoints voters of Turkish origin, the Turks will not forget it."
We need to stop calling these people immigrants and start calling them what they are.. colonialists.
This is genocide. You are insane if you don't think this is genocide.


text:
Coverage: TNT
10:30 PM ET, December 27, 2011
STAPLES Center, Los Angeles, CA
Top Performers
Utah: P. Millsap 18 Pts, 8 Reb, 1 Blk
Los Angeles: K. Bryant 26 Pts, 8 Reb, 5 Ast, 1 Stl, 1 Blk
LOS ANGELES, CA - DECEMBER 27: Pau Gasol #16 of the Los Angeles Lakers reaches to catch a pass against Al Jefferson #25 of the Utah Jazz at Staples Center on December 27, 2011 in Los Angeles, California. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and or using this photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. (Photo by Stephen Dunn/Getty Images)


text:
- the story
Give Love a Good Name
Subtly spell out your love for your partner, your parent, your sibling, or your friend with Allison Ford's hand-hewn ring inset with sterling silver accents.
Inspired by the Braille alphabet's graphical force and understated beauty, artist Allison Ford created these bold bands that turn the word "love" into a secret message to be sent to those closest to you.
Each ring starts as a block of wood and spool of wire. Allison drills, cuts, and contours each ring to size and then sets this ardent message with a series of eight sterling inlay accents. The flecked letters that span each wood ring are set in an eye-catching arrangement, like an astrological constellation twinkling in the night sky. To give the ring a velvety touch, she sands each band meticulously with five different types of sandpaper, and to finish, she seals the message with natural beeswax. Handmade in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Braille letters are hammered flush with the surrounding wood and are decorative only.
Click here for the custom version and choose your own word.
Click here to view Ring & Belt Sizing Chart.
Click here to learn more about our complimentary pouches included with every jewelry order.
- details
- Item ID
- 23156
- Made from
- beeswax, sterling silver, wood, mineral oil
- Measurements
- .5" H x dia: Sizes 6, 7, and 8
- Notes
- Please keep ring away from water. The oils in your skin will help keep the ring supple and over time will cause the ring to darken and develop a wonderful patina. If your ring ever seems to look dry, you can give it a coat of oil (mineral, lemon, etc.)
- the maker
Allison Ford
Allison is a jeweler and artist working in a modern bohemian persuasion with diverse inspiration. Her work is the product of the material and techniques used as well as the history it respects. She takes great pride in her craft and constantly strives to refine her process and level of expertise. Allison loves each piece she makes and would gladly wear them all, but there is something very powerful and cathartic in giving shape and life to something then letting it go.
Wood is her central raw material, as it is inspiring and interactive. She states, "working with a piece of wood really brings out its unique personality, the way it smells, the variable grain patterns, the texture under your fingertips. I enjoy creating relationships between wood and different materials including metal and stone. What I product is a blend of my aesthetic and nature's unpredictability."
You might also like…
Wooden Sterling Accent Ring, choice of word $75.00 -
Sapeli Mahogany Bentwood Men's Ring $100.00 -
Ascher Ring $110.00 -
Fiber Optic Necklace $85.00 -
Kevlar Belt $36.00 -
Caterpillar Hat $32.00 -
Penny Locket Necklace $218.00 -
Mahogany and Aspen Wooden Cuff $45.00 -
Animal Talisman Necklaces $150.00 -
Glass Spirituality Necklace: Agnostic $75.00 -
Sea Glass Bangle $150.00 -
May Peace Be Upon You Necklace $68.00 -
Bye Bye Pet $15.00 -
Turtle Hat and Mittens $33.00 -
Kinetic Sand $50.00