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131 Comments on "Refuting Accusations Made Towards My Feminist Side"
August 17, 2010 at 4:58 am
"Women are the victims of a lot of double standards, but it doesn't justify double standards against men."
This x 100000. I've been reading "feminist" posts lately (wow_ladies and elsewhere) and the amount of double standards you find in some places is… what is this I don't even. And the scariest thing is that the writers don't even seem aware of what they're doing. I've never labeled myself as feminist, but these people do and I never want to get lumped together with them… so yeah, I'm just a girl.
I'd also like to second what you said, for all the readers: there are guilds where girls aren't expected to be bad players or distracting to Vent. I conform to the stereotype (healer), but I don't care, since it's simply what I love and what I'm good at. My guild's MT and RL (and basically GM, though she doesn't have the GM rank) is a girl and she's very good at all that. We're also very dirty and we have a lot of fun, without anyone getting offended at sexual jokes… maybe because the girls are dirtier than the boys? As for talking on Vent, I've never understood why I should be shy in PuGs. Oh, I'm embarrassed about my accent, that's one thing, but of my gender? Lol, seriously. If someone's really shocked there's a girl in the raid, they need a reality check and they're not worth my attention.
August 17, 2010 at 5:44 am
I completely agree that it isn't just about calling people out. Female players who feel comfortable enough (or are strong enough to make themselves comfortable, if that makes sense) should say something and stand up. And you are right – standing up for things you feel as a woman shouldn't mean that you put men down, or subject them to indignities that you wouldn't accept yourself.
I think there is also a lot of difficulty in that for me it is very easy to want to judge other woman's behaviour, and I naturally end up doing it in a way that I would never critique a man/boy (e.g. outfit critiques, flirty behaviour). Being a feminist is about respect, about choices – it's not up to me to be judgeymcjudgey person if someone has a filthy mouth, or enjoys sex, or flirts, or is child free, or is a stay at home mom. That's not what feminism should be able, we shouldn't be deciding what is 'appropriate behaviour' for other women any more than men should be.
I Completely agree with your words about the tagline 'gaming from a girl's perspective' because it's both awesome and at the same time trite and done a lot. And yet many blogs that don't state that emphatically very much cater to the male gamers because that is the 'default' way of looking at things – every gamer blog written by a man is 'from a mans perspective', so I can't begrudge female bloggers the choice of emphasising their gender in their writing, because it's part of being visible, and of pointing out that certain things are a problem. That said it's not something I want to blog as – I'm trying to go beyond the "I'm a girl and I game' and the easy/obvious answers.
I will object and say that if you really enjoy progressive/bleeding edge end-game raiding, I think luck (in terms of timing, slots being available, and other personality factors) does play a part in finding the right guild for you, but that's true of male players as well. I think there are less female friendly 'top 100 guilds', so more luck is involve in finding an environment that is good for you if you want to get involved.
Anyways, brilliant post and I shall add it to my round up 🙂
August 17, 2010 at 5:51 am
[…] lot of admiration for those women who dare tread in waters they're not expected to be seen in. – Refuting Accusations Made Towards My Feminist Side @The Bossy […]
August 17, 2010 at 6:23 am
Excellent post! I agree, women aren't at alle uncommon in WoW. Most women I've played with were excellent players even, and were deeply respected for their skill. To be honest, I have yet to come across a guild on my main realm where gender would be an issue in any way. Admittedly, on another realm where I keep some alts, the atmosphere is completely different. I may have to do some research to see how bad it is exactly.
I'll take up your little "challenge" to see if I can write up a decent post about WoW from a guy's perspective. I may or may not be your Average Joe, but we'll see.
By the way, I haven't seen a photo of you as of yet (and I don't expect to nor ask you to show me) but based on your personality and character as you present yourself on your blog and on Twitter, I'd say your "hawt". I don't care so much for looks as long as the person inside is beautiful 🙂
August 17, 2010 at 6:27 am
Holy CRAP Ophie!! That was awesome. I just saw it turn up in my inbox, and I couldn't stop reading.
The "post a picture" section made me think of this situation I found myself in as a female guild leader:
Now there is a lot of "for the lulz" in that post, but it really has a menacing undertone, and shows up exactly how NASTY people can be to a female gamer – more especially one in power and empowered.
I am like you, as you know. I don't hide that I am a woman, I speak up in vent, I call people out when they are douches and I cop a LOT of flack for it. Some flack I cop because of what I do, but most of the time the retaliation is because I am female, arguing, and 99% of the time, right (mostly because I dont speak up unless I am pretty sure I am right LOL!)
Again, brilliant post.
August 17, 2010 at 8:15 am
Man I have so much to say in response. I think I forgot it all already! I don't know if you read my recent posts on the subject? I barely ever breach the topic of feminism but the recentish Mana Obscura podcast episodes triggered off a few things in my head that I just had to write down. I did the one on Lazy Sniper, and I did one on my Rant Page because I wanted to get a few points across that seem to be almost ignored in real life, and that bugs me. Yeah, I'm talking about the mistreatment of men, because it's just as much a problem in some areas of life.
I believe that these days I have it fairly easy in the gender department. I've managed to surround myself with decent human beings who can be nice, have a laugh, mock each other without being sexist. I love my friends, and I'd never even consider for a moment that they might start being sexist, which is awesome. Ingame it's near enough the same, I'm treated like a player, not a girl, because I've always acted like a person, not a girl (and when I say this, I'm saying that I don't flaunt. I play, I correct people when they call me he because hell, I wouldn't like that irl and I don't like it ingame, I'm not a man damnit!). The occasional "omg your a girl" gets on my nerves a bit but I spose in a way I've become almost accustomed to it, I've had that for so many years. The only reason I don't speak on vent is because my sound card is pretty much fucked, my mic won't work so I can't speak, and I'll never pretend that when I could I could get a word in edgeways. I'm a little uncomfortable on vent not because of my gender, just for the same reasons some people are uncomfortable with phones.
I make sure people know I'm a girl rather than a guy for the reason I said above, despite the fact that I play a DPS class, that I always read up enough to do well, that I play the auction house, that, less so now, but in the past, I raided pretty regularly in guilds that did hardmodes, I believe we had 3 raiding females in my last guild. I collect pets though, I never said I can't be a bit feminine in my preferences!
On the topic of women only guilds, I wouldn't be comfortable with that, purely because I wouldn't be comfortable knowing there was a man only guild out there. That's exclusion, and not entirely the same as a 'Swedish only guild', or 'Greek only guild'. Well, those kinds of guilds will let anybody in as long as they speak the preferred language which is perfectly fine when these guys are stuck on English speaking servers. Male and female players should really be able to play alongside each other as normal, I've seen it happening for years, so when there is a bit of sexism in a guild, I don't quite get it. Why is it so hard to treat people near enough the same?
Cavemen guilds.. yeah I've left the same one over, and over. It has some AWESOME people in it, truely, but it's always had its' share of sexist kids who obviously don't understand that what they're saying and doing is actually pretty bad. I recently left it after a conversation about drunken midget rape, I kinda drew the line.
"Women are the victims of a lot of double standards, but it doesn't justify double standards against men."
This, this, and this again. Seriously, I notice it all the time. Women treat men like crap and the moment it's reversed they're upset. Well, don't treat men like crap then? It really bugs me. I've always been under the impression that you should treat others how you would want to be treated yourself, so I treat guys as though they're equal, and women alike. The moment they show that they're dicks, then I speak out, won't have people treating people I like with disrespect.
On photos, wow. Just wow. There was a girl in my TBC guild (the same one I've just left) who posted pictures of herself, a lot. They were never quite bikini shots, thank God, but she still turned heads. There are pages, and pages of "omg you're so hot, want a drink sometime?" kind of comments after each of her pictures, and she's been there since vanilla so I guess you can imagine what that's like. I also remember another guild, I wasn't in it at the time because I was always pushed aside despite all the help I gave those guys and I'd had enough, another female friend was still there and a girl applied. She said she was 16, and a healing Priest, but the application was bad so they declined her. She applied again.. with a picture. They were suddenly all over her and devising a way to get her in the guild, much to the absolute disgust of me, the other girl, and my other half. I can't remember if she got in, or not, but the fact that there was even an issue over it at all was very wrong.
Okay, sorry for the rant! That was really a great post and I had a lot to say, but I didn't really want to write another post about gender issues so soon, plus, a lot of it was in response so, best as a comment. Awesome post.
August 17, 2010 at 8:29 am
I collect pets, but when one of my male friends joined WoW, what did he do? Started buying all the pets he could find on the AH. He's only level 60 or so, but I think he already has the 50 pets achievement and he loves getting more.
I guess it depends on the type of guild… in mine, most people have posted photos, and while no one (male or female) is drop dead gorgeous, most of them are at least pleasant to look at, some even attractive. No one has commented anything about this – even though Vent is a complete mess of sexual jokes all the time. We just know how to draw the line between "fun" and "uncomfortable". I'm sure this is also discriminating, but I wonder if it's because we're 18+ with most of us in the 24-25 range…
August 17, 2010 at 9:45 am
I must admit while I understand where Jaedia is coming from with 😉 'women treat men like crap and then get upset when women get treated like crap' theme, I find it extremely frustrating to read, personally. I see it so often used as a deflection of discussion about women, even though I rarely see such discussions talk about men in a harmful way (Obviously there are discussion that take that bent, but I've very rarely seen that from gender related posts in the WoW blogosphere, for example.) Pointing out how women get treated, or stereotyped, or victimised, or ignored, or disrespected in general does not go hand in hand with treating men like crap and I find it extremely frustrating when the conversation gets drawn back to that. It's not a revelation or insight, and discussion about female empowerment is not harmful to men so it's frustrating when people raise that point (and they do, time and time again.)
Mulling over things a bit more, I also dislike the implication that we're all in the same boat and able to be strong and speak up, and that if we're speaking about bad experiences we are victimising ourselves rather than being 'good' survivors. Maybe the site isn't useful for women who experience very little sexism in their work, or from family, (either because they've made their own stand against it, or because their family and environment is relatively progressive) but those sites are useful because they allow us to talk and be angry, when society tells us we should be POSITIVE and HAPPY. I think that labelling sites such as MFIF as self-victimising, and that talking about problems as thus a form of self-victimisation is a dangerous path to take for feminism as a whole. It's great to be positive when we have the space and emotional calmness to be positive and think about what we can do, but to call talk about negative things 'victimising' is silencing and dismissive of those experiences and feelings in the wider discussion of feminism and gaming. (I am not saying that is what anyone here intends, mind you.)
August 17, 2010 at 7:30 pm
I really struggle to understand why you're so 'frustrated' by the idea that some men have trouble with discrimination too? It's part of the wider issue, and it is an issue. Perhaps a little less so in WoW, but it's still there.
August 18, 2010 at 4:16 am
I'm not frustrated by it, I'm frustrated by it being raised in discussions about women, as if it is in opposition and a reason not to discuss the issues of females. If you're just having a rant about the way feminists can get hostile towards men who engage in feminists discussion, that's another matter 😉
August 18, 2010 at 8:02 am
I see, we'll have to agree to disagree then because I definitely see it as a part of feminine issues. I believe that gaining equality isn't primarily based on getting equal rights for females, but on finding a good balance between the genders, in which case I think it's quite important to know where the imbalances are.
Anyway, I had decided to back out of any feminist discussions after I made my 2 posts, I got my point/opinion across and that was all I intended to do 🙂 Ophelie's post was great though, felt like I had to comment!
August 17, 2010 at 11:03 am
Pewter: I did see men treated this way several times when trying to express a contrary opinion on certain feminist posts. They were simply dismissed for being men – or at least having male-sounding nicknames – and even verbally abused. In some cases, the verbally abusive women were not told off by the moderators, but then men were told they were trolling. Double standards ftw.
August 17, 2010 at 11:56 am
Well, again that comes back to when someone not of the marginalised group comes in and starts 'explaining' things to the marginalised group, or taking control of the discussion away from the marginalised group, it can be a source of frustration and anger. Again, that hurt and upset is not a reason to dismiss what the hurt people are saying. That's pretty much the tone argument in a nutshell.
August 17, 2010 at 12:11 pm
But then… why pretend you're having a conversation when a side isn't allowed to have an opinion? I didn't notice anything on those sites saying "males can't comment". Some of them obviously do it to troll, but I've seem legitimate (and even supportive) opinions ignored because the commenter was "dan" and not "mary". Some of the women responded levelly and had a conversation (agreeing or disagreeing), some of them started going on about "them men" (in other terms, but that was the idea). It was the exact same behavior men use against women to discount their opinions. If I were a man, I'd be fuming. Hell, I was fuming and I'm female! (Hence why I can't provide a link, I tried to erase the memory.)
At some point I just decided I can't understand certain people and I'll stop trying to. I don't think being abused, as painful as it may be, gives you a right to abuse others… but it's the site owners' right to disagree, so I chose to exercise my right to stop visiting/commenting.
August 17, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Also, I think I know what you mean by "explaining" (something along the lines of "shush silly woman, I know better"? yeah, annoying as hell), but this tends to get overblown to the extent that any attempt to explain or justify a behavior is dismissed. Some behaviors CAN be explained by context, but this is something many women/feminists I've seen choose to ignore/discount, on the basis that "a man did this to me and he behaved like this, so all men behaving like this will do this to people". Errr, no. (One of the flamey posts on w_l was along these lines… guess I'm still pissed off about it.)
August 17, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Long comment incoming!
Well this is one of those things where internet is the great equaliser – for every level-headed commentator you'll get someone who gets mad and resorts to personal attacks and name calling. Derailing is derailing in any situation, though, and women being angry in a discussion about female opression is hardly surprising. It just upsets me to see the discussion about feminism always turn to the protection of the male commentators. There is also the point that those behaviours by the marginalised group towards the privileged group don't have the weight of society behind them (especially applicable when it comes to discussions in the trans community, for example.)
I always try to be civil on my blog for example, but there have been a couple of very civil commentators who have used several derails in very subtle ways, and argued from the privileged point of view and I ended up spending more energy on them than I did on the blog post. I never felt, despite his very 'informed opinion', that he really got what I was saying to him. Not everyone feels the need to be so polite though. (And I'm sure I tried your patience on your gender post 😉 )
I think there's a difference between having an opinion and unintentionally trying to control the conversation of a marginalised group. Often privileged people will come in and engage with the conversation, but we aren't actually listening to what is being said, we are just repeating things that the marginalised group already understands about our position. This leads to a lot of hostility and a lot of anger (which is what you've remarked upon) because rather than enabling the conversation amongst the marginalised group, it makes it all about the privileged group instead. It isn't helpful or good for discussion when 'derailing' happens. (And it's not just 'shush silly woman') Those attempts to justify behaviour or explain context are still the privilege trying to explain away their behaviour and excuse it, generally, rather than admit that maybe the behaviour is problematic/offensive/something to think about. Context and intent is important, but they don't change the end result all that much, no matter how well mannered or well meaning that opinion is.
There's actually a lot of literature and discussion groups out there centered around how allies of marginalised groups – trans, feminists, lesbians, gays, intersex, and all the different cultures that bump up against white (or otherwise) colonialist cultures – can contribute without making the discussion about the privileged.
I do get what you're saying – there's always someone who is going to take something and run with it way more than they should, but that doesn't mean that conversations about feminism should end up referring to the men who happen to get zinged by someone being overzealous.
August 17, 2010 at 2:14 pm
🙂 I assume part of that reference was to me Pewter (if not, 😦 sad panda ego deflated :P).
Poneria, probably better said than I ever can, expresses a lot of what I and many others feel when we step forward. It is very hard to get into discussions and learning others view points when you get shutdown for asking questions.
Part of the issue with discussions like these is that stepping into them often comes with the implicit acknowledgement of feminist principles without compromise (which very between feminists from true equity feminists to radical feminists). It is hard to look at things from other people's perspectives, but to shut people down because of privilege they may or may not have is a little harsh. There are spaces like feministcritics.org where they are trying to open up discussions but it is hard to involve others when the fundamentals must be fully accepted or discussion cannot take place.
August 18, 2010 at 6:11 am
We're probably best served by discussing this over email 2ndnin 😉
feministcritics.org is a very very good blog and serves a very important purpose, but not every feminist discussion space can be that, and it's a privilege that we can walk into these spaces and expect the marginalised group to spend their time justifying themselves to us and listening to our opinions. Our entitlement to be listened to is not more important their entitlement to be able to talk about these things without us butting in all the time and making it about us 😉
(And I say this as a white person who attempted to interact in back activism spaces and made some very similar responses to yours 2ndnin.)
I do think there are a lot of men's rights that do need more advocacy and to be talked about more by men, with support from female allies, and I think it can be done without one 'doing down' the other, if that makes sense 😉
August 17, 2010 at 1:42 pm
This is the thing that always turns me off for feminism whenever I get interested in the subject again.
I think my uncomfort is the empowered tone set by many feminists, and then how they get upset whenever the conversation is turned to men (or whatever the "privileged" group of the day is). Empowerment is fine, but being hostile towards men's opinions gives me the feeling that you are losing control of the conversation and are desperately trying to win it back. Often, the tone of feminist responses to men's comments feels like the feminists are closing ranks and shutting the privileged out, all the while waving the banner of equality and welcome open-ness.
What I don't understand is why feminists respond with so much hostility. I do agree with Ophelie that action is much better than ranting about it (though a rant is healthy every once in a while), so I don't understand why not take the opportunity to learn where the non-marginalized group is coming from and try to work it out with them. So far, I've seen your (Pewter) responses basically repeat back to the men what your position is, which is what you say they were doing to you.
I'm not trying to "defend" truly inappropriate or trolling responses to feminist posts. I'm just trying to understand the other sides to it.
August 17, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Poneria, feminism is a faith rather than a science due to the inability to prove the underlying concepts. The hostility is often due to the others refusing to accept the core tenants of the faith (no matter how contradictory) and so appearing to undermine the whole ideology even if they wish to engage in good faith.
Taking the example of privilege (societally backed potential advantages by feminist lingo) which many people can demonstrate to not have despite being in the privileged group it is a generally kickable offense to say that you / others don't have it because it demeans / challenges others and the establishment's views. In many ways though you must accept some of the tenants to actually involve discussion, however without a middle ground it is just preaching to the faithful (which is great but its not discussion).
August 17, 2010 at 2:46 pm
No. I do understand where you're coming from. I completely understand. I have had my ass well and truly handed to me in discussions about sexuality and race, because I was well meaning and got things very wrong. One of the things I struggle with on mentalshaman.com is discussing these topics without becoming prescriptivist or dismissive, or resort to namecalling/hostility. That said I have a very snarky side, limited time and energy, and I sometimes fail in expressing myself properly.
Closing ranks (or circling the wagons) is something that happens when someone feels constantly under attack about a particular topic, which feminist activists very often are. Personally my blog is a frontier blog, and the discussions have been very civil and I haven't been under attack. I did have one very wordy commenter who…well, every single one the comments he has made has been an example of a well known trope in feminist discussions, and it was a lot of effort for me to marshal my responses and to do so adequately. Nothing he said was 'new' (as in I've thought or believed similar things myself, in an 'ew feminists, I'm a humanist stage') I may well have failed and just 'parroted back at him', but I think that's a personal failing on my part to identify and respond to his points in a way that would get my position across to him.
Does a privileged persons 'right' to express their opinion really trump the marginalised persons right to be hurt or upset by privileged assumptions? And then to call those assumptions out? If responding politely to every single comment by a privileged is inhibiting to the marginalised groups discussion, does listening to their opinions (trolls non-withstanding) really trump encouraging the marginalised group to talk amongst themselves about what they think about the way they are marginalised? If responding with links to 101 blogs is also hostile and alienating, then why is the burden of explanation and education on the part of the marginalised, rather than the privileged who came into the marginalised space/discussion?
August 17, 2010 at 3:00 pm
And sometimes I just get things wrong, or repeat myself ^^
August 17, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Hmmmm, it's complicated in my head. Let me try to work my way through this. Also, my apologies, Ophelie, for hijacking your post into long wordwall comments that don't attend to the post itself. =P
I think it takes two to create offense. I went around the bush for an hour, deleted it, and I'll just get to the meat.
You, Pewter, are excellently civil most of the time, and I really like that about you. I sincerely do enjoy your posts and even this thread right now. However, I do feel that you come across as too strong a lot of the time. I don't mean to say that you can't be strong-minded as a woman; I mean it as an unhealthy excess of strength. I often feel like you automatically take the position of being offended before you've even acknowledged the comment.
Crap, I'm focusing on the person not the issue. I apologize. Let me try again.
I don't really see education and explanation as a burden. I've always loved school in the academic sense, and it's probably why I can be offended by your manner but otherwise love love love your posts. I see education and explanation as joys to be expressed. When I really love a subject, I wish to share both the subject and why I think it's beyond awesome with other people, and I love it when other people share their this-is-so-awesome-s with me, regardless of whether I know all about it or nothing at all. What turns me off are the people who seem to focus on pointing out the dissenters and why they are wrong or offensive or worse or whatever opposing descriptor is wished. This bothers me because it comes across as insecure, like a subject can't be loved and lived for without unanimous support from other people. Presenting opposing opinions is okay, throwing out a personal opinion on their opposing opinions is okay, but I am bothered and frustrated by unwelcome atmospheres of discussion. It's okay to disagree and walk your separate paths, so long as each path is allowed to be taken (and each path does have it consequences to be had, I do not wish to ignore that aspect). I dislike focusing on the negatives over promoting the positives, which is how the conversation often turns to.
Actually, ironically, I'm focusing on the negative now. Crap. I'm just full of mistakes.
You, Pewter, come across to me like you would rather "fix" the opposing commenters than let them say their piece and work it out. Of course, this is just my view, and I could be entirely wrong about this because of my own preconceptions. I apologize if this is true.
The opposing side and I already know what it is that offends you. You make that clear in your posts and comments, and I thank for that, since it's a bit rare for people to just say straight out what's bothering them. What I think you could expand on is what you wish to see as a response once someone has misstepped. People will misstep, some by accident, some on purpose. But I'm asking what would you like to see to help myself and others to not misstep again, while respecting both of us.
Lastly, I really do want to thank you for the posts and comments. This makes me seriously think about and through my opinions and positions on various subjects. I really do appreciate and love it. 🙂
August 17, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Hmm. A lot to respond to Poneria. I had to re-write this about 3 or 4 times, and I'm still not happy with it.
I don't come to this particular conversation in an offended stance. Nothing that has said has been offensive, I've merely disagreed with individual points and (in my point of view) offered critique. Now if you say that I'm coming across too strong, my response is to look at my own language and points and try to figure out what I can do to mitigate what is possibly a natural part of my writing style.
I'm no expert in the feminist field. I've not spent any time in gender studies or woman's studies in a formal environment, but I do have an academic background which does tend to the 'critique and let them figure it out on their own' style. This whole post/discussion is pretty awesome because it's a discussion of method and language, and that's fine. We're disagreeing and discussing and that's not a problem – we're not even dwelling on the evils of sexism here 😉 . A discussion where two points of view are raised and left as they are is not a discussion, it's the end of one – especially as some of these points of view come with unintended or implicit critiques of other feminist (or non-feminist) stances.
On education – it is a joy for you. I like to talk and provoke discussion, but I don't like banging my head against a brick wall, and I'm not a teacher. It is something I need to learn, especially as my blog is a frontier/transition blog, but I'm not going to be perfect with my responses right off the bat, and learning how to handle criticism on the blog level is an on going thing ^^ And I might say that maybe responsibility is a better word than 'burden'. Of course, discussing things in this context is different again from calling out someone on inadvertently hurtful language (e.g. transphobic or racist language). I don't think the responsibility of education is on the person being hurt by the language, or on anyone who calls out/expresses disapproval of such language. That isn't the situation here, of course, so the strategies I use to educate myself when I misstep in a spacewhere I have privilege, but I'm not sure how applicable they are when I am in a discussion of women by women 😉
I shall try to take what you about helping others to avoid the missteps and work on that. Always something to learn (and if my posts do provoke thoughts, I'm at least doing something right 😉 )
August 17, 2010 at 5:21 pm
I think I misread a lot because it's heated conversation in just plain text, and I think I may have misjudged your strong tones then. That's totally my bad and I apologize.
I still do disagree about the possessor of the burden/responsibility/whatever of the education and explanation, but I think I'll go expand on that on my own blog. For one, I feel like I'm intruding on the Bossy Pally and for two, this comment box is getting TINY. 😉
August 17, 2010 at 5:34 pm
I think in situations where my blog where I am in shared space I do need to take some responsibility for educating (especially as I have so much privilege myself) but I sent you a link via DM about that.
August 19, 2010 at 12:44 pm
I think in terms of being a marginalised group I do tend to hesitate with applying it to western women (although in certain contexts women are still very much in a minority representation, and I still think there is a lot to work towards.) I don't go around yelling that I'm being oppressed, even though I like to focus on legacy behaviours and assumptions (the status quo) that I think needs to be challenged and thought about. I used the term marginalised group there because I was trying to discuss ideas of derailing and privilege in terms of the wider social justice movement in order to explain what I was getting at better, so I apologise if that went a bit jargony.
opinions of the well off, The biggest problem with feminism historically has been that it prioritised the rights and white, western woman. That is something that a lot of feminists want to change. I think feminism and social justice is still very applicable in the west.
August 17, 2010 at 11:12 am
(And I was flamed to death for disagreeing with the masses on wow_ladies, but I've since given up on finding common sense there. I just hope the poor girls who asked for relationship advice managed to get themselves sorted out.)
August 17, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Yeah, sorry for the word dump above, I was just having trouble articulating some stuff. I think w_l is a much more positive place now, but then generally don't get too involved in the firestorms. Generally the overall range of advice tends to be pretty good imho.
August 17, 2010 at 12:58 pm
w_l is a perfectly fine community 90%+ of the time. I just happened to run into two posts that derailed bad and left me a bit boggled. The one I referred to was along the lines of a girl being yelled at by her long-distance bf on Vent because she fucked up something in a BG. The advice most commenters gave her was "dump him, this is abusive behavior, he'll become worse, you don't want to be around him". I recommended having a conversation first (maybe he's an abuser; maybe he was just having a bad day) and oooh that was a bad idea… some women had been abused, so they knew better, and I should just shut up and go away. Then I got told (rudely) by the mods that because I disagreed, I should shut up, but the anti-rudeness rules don't apply to her because she was responding to oppressive language. I "wtf"ed at her definition of oppressive language and got out of there fast.
(Fwiw, I can't play WoW with my boyfriend, because he's more hardcore and we get on each other's nerves very fast. He has yelled at me in raids, but from there to physical abuse… looong long way.)
Enough offtopic, work day is over so I'm going home to a raid 😀
August 17, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Ah I see. Well, I tend to stay out of those discussion because I find it so hard to talk about other people's relationships via so little information.
August 18, 2010 at 5:32 am
I felt like I had to, because there were already dozens of comments telling the girl to just dump that guy… I guess I felt a little responsible, what if she did it thinking *everyone* agreed and ruined a good relationship? I wanted to show her that it's not an universal opinion that she should get rid of the guy. No idea what happened next, but since then I've kinda kept away from these posts too.
August 17, 2010 at 11:58 am
(and I don't think having a bust up with someone perceived as a troll is the same abusing someone because they are male.)
August 17, 2010 at 2:19 pm
What is a troll though? There are obvious trolls (irrelevancies) and there are "trolls" that ask questions and put forward views that are disagreed with. I don't think you can really classify the second as a troll so much as someone who wants to learn / disagrees with the current view point. Again if you are basing your discussion in a public way (such as a blog or open forum) then you should expect others to chip in in ways that you personally might not appreciate. In a gated community fair enough.
August 18, 2010 at 4:13 am
I can expect people to chip in, but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to engage with every single disagreement 😉
August 19, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Of course not. However engaging with people can help them learn. One of the things I really got from my experience as a demonstrator in labs is that some people get what you say as you say it, others you need to find alternate explanations for them to understand, some you will need to approach from what seems a stupid angle, and some will never get it even if you give them the answer and all the ways anyone can think of to explain it.
The point is if you don't try the alternate ways and simply direct people to resources that worked for you or others you don't create someone that doesn't understand, you create someone that resents.
August 17, 2010 at 1:04 pm
I read this with much interest, I always like your posts, and it is interesting to hear other females explain their experiences in game dealing (or not) with sexism.
I agree with you that as far as speaking up in a pug I have never gotten any outright sexist comments. Once I got something like "hey, a girl! Wanna do it with me?" which was a bit strange since who would ask that of someone they just met, but not intended in a derogatory way.
I recently joined a guild after pugging into several runs with them, and only after becoming a guild member did I realize I am the ONLY woman in the guild. And they have a sort of low key rep as a bunch of male pigs, but in raids, and in general, none of my guildies has ever said anything sexist to or about me. They have high standards for raiders, and when someone messes up they are called out. They make jokes, sometimes sexual, but so do I on occassion, so nothing I can hold against them without being a bit hypocritical.
So I guess my point is, many sexist attitudes are actually expected by women in games, and the expectation is worse than the reality. Not that it doesn't exist, but before jumping to the conclusion that men (or other women) will hold a sexist attitude, we should give them a chance to prove or disprove that, and correct bad behavior when we see it, not before.
August 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm
I feel like commenting on this post, but I don't have extensive information to add. I don't actively participant on the sites referenced above, and I don't speak out about extensively on feminism in game or real life.
I do, however, relate to your statement above: "I don't talk feminism very much because I'm busy living it." My quiet approach has more to do with simply being shy than anything else. But at the same time, I am an extremely strong woman both in game and real life. I am not afraid to take on challenges and confront issues, but I don't choose to start the conversation on the topic.
From a game perspective, I appreciate your comment about guilds: "Having non-cavemen guildies isn't "fortune" it's choice". Great guilds do exist where you don't need to experience discrimination of any kind in the game. You might need to decide to ignore the idiots in trade chat, but you can have a great game experience as a female. If you don't find it right away, keep looking.
My guild has a strict policy on respect. People with issues regarding gender, sexual orientation, race etc just don't last long in our guild because our members will not tolerate it. You should see how fast someone gets jumped on by multiple members the first time the utter anything in guild chat that comes across as disrespectful. We will kick someone for continued abuse of the rule, but generally people are quick to realize they don't fit in if they feel the need to make such comments.
Even with my quiet approach over the years, I have gained respect in the game by simply exhibiting skill, knowledge and kindness. I am not the guild master, but I keep our guild running. I organize all of our raids, I keep our web site up and running and I pay for our ventrilo server and web site.
Thanks for the post. I don't read blogs a lot, but I enjoy yours when I do visit the site.
August 17, 2010 at 5:13 pm
@Pewter and Jen,
Your discussion above (I read most of it, but you both at times had lengthy posts I may have skipped some info on) was quite good, and I will say outright I may be aligning with Jen's school of thought. Pewter I read your post and while it was a very well written article, I couldn't put my finger why I didn't enjoy it.
Jen helped me figure out why with what she was talking about.
My thoughts coalesced into this: As a successful raid leader and GM over an extended period of time, many women have come into our guild (18+, performance raiding guild but casual members are welcome for the social aspect as well) and remarked that our guild on our server tended to attract a larger amount of women. One day I questioned my then-lone female officer as to why people would say this. She replied that I simply did not care about someone's gender, and raided based on performance and social standards were set and followed by everyone.
Final point: This article clearly states that if you do not like the way things are around you and are being treated horribly, then make a change- choose not to raid with cavemen! (I'm resisting so hard to not make a "It's So Easy a Caveman could do it!" joke here… oops)
August 17, 2010 at 7:03 pm
[…] The Bossy Pally has a thing or two to say on the subject as well. […]
August 17, 2010 at 7:24 pm
I'm a female GM and raid leader (and blogger!), though I generally don't make a big deal out of it. I'm not fond of defining someone by gender, in either direction. When I get an applicant to my guild I evaluate them regardless of gender, and accept them on the basis of how they perform.
I don't think there are little islands of happiness where female gamers can peaceably be guilded and one has to be lucky to find them. Finding a comfortable guild can be hard, but it's a number of factors and not gender exclusive. If being around the cavemen is hard because one's female, there are probably other problems with the guild that have nothing to do with gender.
I don't pug raids too often, but when I do, I readily speak up in vent. I admit I sometimes wonder if the other raiders are surprised when a woman speaks up and she's the tank or raid leader, but I have not once been called out in a negative fashion because of my gender.
As you said, we're not little snowflakes anymore. It's fun being one, but really I think the general gaming audience recognizes a competent player when they play with one and they won't care what the gender of that person is.
August 17, 2010 at 9:40 pm
"If a guy posted provocative pictures of his 6-pack, though" … LOL. As a guy, and a nerd from way back, if, in some parallel universe I *HAD* a 6-pack to flaunt, I would flaunt it 🙂 Sadly, I am more like the majority of male gamers (yes, gross generalisation), often healthy eating is not taking the lettuce out of my McChicken 😀 (Slight exaggeration, but you get the point.) Getting and maintaining a 6-pack would require better eating, more exercise and less WoW. Not. Going To Happen.
August 17, 2010 at 11:04 pm
I knew as soon as I finished reading this column that I wanted to leave a comment, and I've been pondering for several hours now what I want to say. While it will probably be clumsy in parts, I'll do the best that I can to adequately express my feelings on the matter.
I've been reading with interest the columns that have been written recently (and subsequently brought to my attention one way or another) about feminism and how it relates to WoW; along with the larger worldview that these columns address and link to. They've been thought-provoking, and I always enjoy it when the gray matter is stimulated.
As a standard-issue straight white guy, I always feel awkward lending my thoughts, however muddled they may be, to conversations such as this. I worry that I'm not qualified to have an opinion. But it is something that I wish to understand and help, in whatever way that I can, to fix.
There's no doubt that there are societal issues at play. However, I can't single-handedly change society, as much as I might like it sometimes. I can only do what I as an individual can to the people with whom I interact. To lead by example, as it were.
One thing that I seem to have noticed in my reading columns on this topic is that, while the problem is acknowledged, and my demographic as a whole is singled out as the main offender (which it is), I rarely, if ever, see anyone suggest what it is exactly I can do to not be a part of the problem. Rather, I have seen columns insinuating that by the circumstances of my birth, I am cursed by default to never be capable of being anything but the problem.
I as an individual have never done anything to warrant that kind of scorn. I as an individual treat everyone, man or woman, with the respect that they deserve. And yet I find myself wondering if my natural kindness could be interpreted simply as a means of seduction; a concept which disgusts me. I shouldn't have to second-guess how I will be received; I know what my feelings and intentions are.
The women in my life have never indicated to me that I am of the ilk that is described as being the problem. Indeed, a few have told me that they wish more men were like I am. I'm not trying to toot my own horn; I just want to make it clear that I've never done the kinds of things that some have. Nor would I ever condone such behavior. And to find myself sometimes lumped in by default with such people is distressing.
I'm not one to judge people or treat them a certain way based solely on the circumstances of their births. I would never want it to be done to me; why would I do it to them?
My issue is that I'm a good person. I don't have to TRY to be; it's in my nature. I was raised right, and the values of respecting EVERYONE were instilled in me from a very early age.
I want to understand the issue as best as I can. And I want to know what I can do to help, in my own way.
August 18, 2010 at 5:50 am
I don't have anything constructive to add (except that I do think there's many men out there like you), but I really enjoyed reading this and I'm looking forward to the conversation it might spark.
August 18, 2010 at 7:00 am
[…] The above is just an addendeum/information. This post prompted by an excellent discussion over at The Bossy Pally. I'm hoping we will get some male bloggers to talk about male specific issues within World of […]
August 18, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Being that I am a male gamer, I suppose my only real insight I can provide to this topic is this: In roughly 13 years of online MMO play across 6 different game worlds I have come to the realization that I not only highly appreciate female gamers, but in many respects I prefer them over males.
Now I know this can sound like a flirtatious statement or one of flattery, however I am doing neither (I'm not doing the first because my wife would kill me, but that's besides the point). With very few exceptions, the female gamers I have had the fortune of playing with, guilding with, raiding with, etc., have shown a determination to go above and beyond, a calmness and presence of mind not typically seen in testosterone ridden males, and a fantastic lack of "e-peen" syndrome.
It is an absolute pleasure raiding with my guild because our core 10 man is made up of 4 women, 2 of whom are married to 2 others in the core group. Yes, our vent conversations will naturally drift to the slightly inappropriate innuendo common among gamers of my age group that are almost all married and have children, a lot of that is my fault of course with my all-too-common "that's what she said" jokes (see Twisted Nether Blogcast episode 92, "That's what Ril said", for just how much I use that line). But we always keep the language and conversation to a family friendly level and any time we PUG players they are quick to voice their appreciation for our guilds raid environment and I cannot help but think that comes directly from the amount of women we have in our guild.
To sum up, I will forever be happy to game with females and in many cases prefer it and I am the first to lay into anyone for disrespecting any player based any stereotype (gender/race/age/creed, etc.)
August 18, 2010 at 7:30 pm
I love all the angry women posting here. Now if we can get you all in the same room with Jello we got a party
August 19, 2010 at 3:12 am
I dunno, I like to think I've been fairly accomodating. If you can meet the attendance, compete on the DPS/healing, and not die to fires, you got a pretty fair chance. Even better if you have a sense of humor and can mesh in with the rest of us.
I don't even blink anymore whenever women apply.
I'm used to large amounts of women flocking to me.
(No, never happens, sadface)
August 19, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I don't know Matt, seems to me that you get an awful lot of @ replies on Twitter from the female WoW community folks. I think it's the cheeks, women like a cheek they can pinch.
I am of course referring to his face, it's in his twitter avatar, not that anyone was thinking of another kind of cheek
August 19, 2010 at 9:20 am
I'm a male and to be quite honest I don't care that much. Not in a hateful way or anything I just find the subject has zero relevance to me 90% of the time. I almost feel it shouldn't have any relevance to anyone (in an ideal world). I tend not to put up with letting those I play with hassle each other over shit like that but in a mature environment it rarely happens. People can go on about changing the game when really its society that would have to change for anything meaningful to happen.
Take morgan freeman. There's a famous interview with him where they ask him about Black History Month and he responds with the fact that he hates it. Why does he hate it? Because his history shouldn't have to be given a month in which it can exist. By setting apart from History it's implying that mainstream history is white history and that Black History needs to be kept separate. Often I think by drawing so much attention to a subject like this reinforces differences.
For one I couldn't care less about the gender make up of the people I play with. What I'm looking for is people to kill internet monsters with, who are low maintenance, friendly, preferably skilled and prepared. If more guys hit this sweetspot than girls then maybe its more due to demographics than representation.
August 19, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Often I think by drawing so much attention to a subject like this reinforces differences.
Thank you for saying it. Someone needed to.
August 19, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Very well said.
Why are we different, because we see the differences.
August 19, 2010 at 9:24 am
[…] got broad shoulders, so I'm going to admit that I am the person being called out here. Kudos to her for not identifying me (although, hey, almost all of you would have seen the […]
August 19, 2010 at 11:35 am
[…] Girl stuff A post by The Bossy Pally made about Women and WoW. […]
August 19, 2010 at 12:17 pm
/cast shield wall
August 19, 2010 at 1:18 pm
[…] I know I'm on a list of female GM's over at Bossy Pally. […]
August 19, 2010 at 1:29 pm
I'm a female raid leader in my guild [and also one of the tanks]. My hubby and I work well as a team leading the raids 🙂
I've encountered more disbelief and shock over me [a woman] being a tank than being a raid leader ironically. And I've gotten some static from now ex-guildies over it, but I'm still here and still doing my thing – happily so.
August 21, 2010 at 11:47 am
Something that has really troubled me as a woman (I've seen quotes in several different places). It troubles me that younger women don't guard themselves as well as I would (whether she was oversharing her humor or her sexuality, I don't know, but from the male reaction, I can see how they took it). I don't think we give men grief for similar comments, but maturity means guarding yourself against that.
You see similar issues in professional women, a huge majority are trying to gain respect on mutual ground (or at least that pleasant place where gender complexity still equals respect), but certain younger women feel like being empowered means getting overt sexual attention from men. And that objectifies the men…
[EDIT by Ophelie] Good comment, but I removed some name-naming. It's not fair to judge people based on quotes which may or may not have been completely fabricated.
August 21, 2010 at 11:48 pm
As you probably know, I am a tank and a raid leader in a guild that is about as hard-core progression as your own.
I don't think female tanks are all that rare. I know of many. In fact, probably half the guilds I know have a female tank. What I've never met, though, is a hardcore female DPS. I don't know why. I've met several really bad female DPS, but never any top-of-the-charts DPS. I hope to meet one in the future. I'd like to think I'd apply the same mindset to DPS that I do to tanking – I just happen to prefer tanking.
Anyways. I've never liked to think of myself as a girl playing wow – just a wow-playing female person, like a wow-playing brown haired person or a wow-playing parent or something.
I really, really hate blogs that are all like LOOK GUIZ I'M A GIRL AND I PLAY WOW TEE HEE HEE (ex/ ferraro). In fact, it's one of my pet peeves. I really- really- really can't stand it. I am female and I act girly all the time, but I never call myself a "wow girl" or a "wow playing girl" or title my blog "GIRL IN WOW WHO TANKS" or something like that. I hate it. To be honest, I am probably harder on girls who I meet in-game.
That I'm female is rarely one of the first things I mention – although I don't hide it, either. It's a fact about me like the fact that I'm 24, I live in the South, etc…. all things I can be judged on. In general, the southern accent part gets me more judging than the rest!
Feminism in wow is a very big issue, and I enjoy reading well-written, smart viewpoints on it (like your own). I have enjoyed reading your posts & many of the other posts on this topic. But I just prefer to avoid it myself.
I really don't think of myself as a wow feminist at all. I think it's pretty tangential to my life – at least, I *HOPE* it's tangential. If I pretend hard enough that other people don't judge me on being female, then it won't happen – or the people who do will just start to feel silly.
Of course, how we act within a comfort zone (guild) and out of that comfort zone (between guilds, pvp, or pugging) are two very, very different things.
I do panic about being judged as a girl in those situations….
August 22, 2010 at 3:26 am
It warms my heart to hear you say:
"…But as a middle class French Canadian woman born in the early 80s, I've always felt like *I* was part of the privileged gender. As a woman, I'm more likely to attend university, have access to more scholarships, have an easier time finding places to live, am trusted more easily and if I ever find myself in a custody battle, I'm almost certain to win. I'm also less likely to drop out of high school or end up in jail. If that's not enough, growing up, I was given all these talks in school about the importance of self esteem, about how to deal with problems, about how to assert myself and so on. Boys got very little of that…"
It is a shame though that your privilege has been at the cost of your male counterparts. The current recession only reinforces the disparity between the sexes and the fact that males are not achieving anymore leaves you having to look for lower achieving males.
Maybe someday equality will be had, but right now it is all about you special little snowflakes and damn the male that dares speak against the momentum of 40+ years of modern feminism.
August 23, 2010 at 1:07 am
I'm a female GM too 🙂
I will confess, I've written a couple of gender-related posts for TBJ and then shelved them. It's a topic that is high on my "probably not worth the trouble" list.
I hid my gender, back when I created Keeva. She was a reroll, and I was coming from a guild that loved me for me, but also probably because I was an Aussie girl with an interesting accent, and I started feeling as though they would love me even if I tripped over myself in raids, face pulled, stood in fire, and generally sucked.
So when I made Keeva, I didn't mention anything about gender, and it never came up. I "got away with it" for 5 whole months, until it came time to do something and I had to get on vent.
The shock and surprise was entertaining and fun, I won't lie, but I didn't do it for the shock value (TADA! I'M A WOMANNNNNNNN!) – I wanted to know that they valued me as a healer and a player first. Once I was happy that they *did* like me regardless of gender, I was happy to stop hiding.
I'm sure some people would criticise me for wanting to hide my sex – but I didn't want to always wonder whether I was a valuable team member, or that they were just going easy on me as a girl. I don't want special treatment – I just want to be appreciated for me.
I underestimated them 🙂
August 24, 2010 at 2:40 pm
[…] Ophelie listed me as a "hardcore female player" on her blog, amongst a list of feminist posts and other strong women. To be perfectly honest, I feel a bit uneasy about it. Not because of the whole "hardcore vs casual" shindig, but because I do things that other feminist bloggers would probably not approve of. For example, to address one of the things she talks about in that post, I do not talk on PuG vents. Allow me to tell you a story. […]
August 26, 2010 at 4:55 am
I'd really like to enlist here, or rather I'd feel honored to. you can find my own thoughts on the matter in my most recent post here http://raging-monkeys.blogspot.com/2010/08/so-whats-conclusion.html
to shatter some more of the frequent typing, I've been co-GM, raidleader and in WoW and I also luv to pvp! 😀
thanks for reviewing this!
August 26, 2010 at 7:02 am
ummm that was supposed to mean *stereotyping of course – my typing could use some help too though, by the looks!
August 27, 2010 at 8:26 pm
[…] lot of people have been blogging lately about sort of feminist topics. In particular, Ophelie's post caught my attention. Not only did she link me (thanks!) but she linked me under […]
August 29, 2010 at 5:46 am
Lathere and I both blog and are serious about raiding (we're stuck on LK heroic 25 man atm though).
That said, I don't think we write very much about gender in WoW. Only because my gender and how people treat me based on my looks/gender whatever isn't something that I dwell on. And therefore, isn't something that I blog about much.
Although I think Lath said it all here:
August 30, 2010 at 1:58 pm
I'm a PVE progression focused female raider. I don't spend a whole lot of time taking about gender though.


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This utility will install the originally shipped version of the Intel SATA Driver for the Sony VAIO® computers listed below.
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Please follow the steps below to download and install the INDOTH-00229044-0042.EXE program.
1. Download the INDOTH-00229044-0042.EXE file to a temporary or download directory (please note this directory for reference).
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3. At the "User Account Control" window, click the "Yes" button.
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5. At the "Select Country" screen, select the country for the installation and click the "Next" button.
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The installation of the Intel SATA Driver is completed.
- SATA_Driver_non_RAID_9.6F_VOC_18.104.22.1684.zip
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November marks Veterans Day and the 30th anniversary of the completion of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. In commemoration, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) is conducting a special 65-hour ceremony to recognize the fallen and missing in action.
From Nov. 7-10 at the memorial site, volunteers will read the names of the 52,282 servicemembers inscribed on The Wall. This will be only the fifth time in The Wall's history that the reading of the names has occurred. And on Nov. 11, VVMF will conduct its annual Veterans Day ceremony at the memorial site. Visit www.vvmf.org/Ceremonies for more details.
Additionally, VVMF is conducting a nationwide "thank you" tribute to Vietnam veterans with its video project. It's asking individuals and groups, such as Legion posts, to videotape themselves reading the names of servicemembers on The Wall who have local or personal ties to them. To find names on The Wall by state, visit www.vvmf.org/names-by-state.
VVMF is also expanding its video project to include the names of veterans who have died from Vietnam-related causes, such as Agent Orange, but do not meet the Department of Defense requirements for inclusion on The Wall.
Videos should be sent to email@example.com and will be posted on VVMF's website and Facebook page. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund was established in 1979 and is dedicated to preserving the legacy of The Wall, keeping veterans' stories alive and educating America on the impact the war had on servicemembers and their families. Meanwhile, this past Memorial Day during a ceremony at The Wall, President Obama proclaimed May 28, 2012, through Nov. 11, 2025, as the Commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the Vietnam War.


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The Coast Guard reports that an oil platform 17 miles southeast of Grand Isle, Louisiana owned by the Houston-based firm Black Elk Energy caught fire this morning. According to the latest report, Two crewmembers are dead, four are in critical condition, and the Coast Guard is still looking for two who are missing. A total of 11 crew were airlifted and are in medical care. While it's impossible not to think immediately of 2010's Deep Water Horizon disaster, it looks like this tragedy won't lead to an environmental catastrophe.
We're updating as we learn more from the Coast Guard, Black Elk Energy, and other sources on the ground.
Update 11:45
WWLTV reports that four people have been airlifted from the platform to the hospital. According to Jefferson Parish, Louisiana Councilman Chris Roberts there are no reports that any oil has spilled. It's a shallow water platform so it's much less dangerous than with deep water wells.
Update 11:52
There's a report that the two missing people jumped overboard.
Upadte 11:54
WWTV also has a statement form Black Elk Energy
We cannot confirm or deny anything at this time, but we are assembling an incident command team right now," said Black Elk Energy asset manager Kirk Trascher
Update 11:59
WWL-TV has additional details straight from the Coast Guard...
Coast Guard Captain Peter Gautier said there was believed to be 28 people on the platform at the time. He said there were rescues that were done by Coast Guard and Good Samaritans.
Gautier said the platform was not actively producing oil and it is not believed that there is any chance for a major environmental disaster.
Well, that's a promising so far.
Update 12:03
Just yesterday, BP agreed to a plea bargain with the government in which it would admit to criminal responsibility for the 2010 Deep Water Horizon explosion that killed 11 workers and dumped untold millions of gallons of oil into the gulf. BP will pay $4.5 billion in fines. The company is still potentially on the hook for another $20-odd billion in civil penalties and damages. [WSJ]
Update 12:06
We've got a statement on from Black Elk Energy, which says still collecting information. "We have Black Elk personnel on the scene, and we will release a statement this afternoon," a representative told Gizmodo.
Update 12:10
Here's some background on Black Elk Energy's well operations from its website. It's a major player with many wells in the region of this disaster.
Black Elk Energy holds interests in properties offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, located within Louisiana and Texas State and Federal waters with depths ranging from less than ten feet up to over 6,000 feet.
Through a series of selective transactions, Black Elk Energy has grown to include an aggregate interest in more than 854 wells on 155 platforms located across 430 thousand gross acres offshore. Black Elk holds a significant acreage position in the Gulf of Mexico from the mouth of the Mississippi River to Mustang Island
Update 12:14
We spoke to United States Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer Bobby Nash, who told us, "We'll deal with the environmental impact once everyone is accounted for."
Update 12:20
Here's an image of Black Elk's well and platform locations. The specific platform that exploded is highlighted with an arrow.
Update 12:23
We got in touch with EPA Region 6 headquarters in Dallas. According to the office's spokesman Dave Bary, this falls entirely under USCG jurisdiction. No EPA response at this time.
Update 12:28
Black Elk Energy's website is down. And it appears that it's not just the pressure of increased traffic got the best of it. It was taken down intentionally.
Update 12:34
As NBC points out, the Houston Chronicle just named Black Elk Energy one of the top small businesses in the region to work for.
Update 12:41
The fire on the platform is reportedly out.
Update 12:48
The Coast Guard is the source which says the fire is out. CBS reports that the USCG had two small boats, an airplane, and two helicopters sent to the area.
Update 12:50
As for the environmental response, the federal government is reportedly on it.
David Smith, a spokesman for the Interior Department's Bureau of Safety and Environmental Enforcement, said a team of environmental enforcement inspectors was dispatched from a Gulf Coast base by helicopter soon after the Coast Guard was notified of the emergency.
There's a number of reasons we might not have as much to worry about in this case compared to others. First of all, this is a shallow water platform. Part of what made dealing with the Deep Water Horizon disaster so tough was the extreme depth.
Also, the platform is a production platform, not a well. It's not actually tapped into the bottom of the ocean floor. It's not drilling. Even better, there was no active production at the time of the fire.
Update 12:59
Here's a video from Black Elk Energy's environmental initiative .
Update 1:02
WWL TV reports that it appears the accident happened while maintenance workers were cutting pipe. This could have created the spark that ignited the platform's highly flammable payload.
Update 1:15
The situation appears to have stabilized; the Coast Guard is still searching for the missing workers, and the full extent of the damage remains to be seen. We're in touch with representatives from the Coast Guard, Black Elk Energy, and the government and we'll update again when we can get some clarification on those points.
Update 2:41
The Black Elk Energy front page is back (the news page is still down. They've added the following statement to the front page:
Our thoughts and prayers are with those who are impacted. We have Black Elk personnel on the scene and en route. We are still collecting information at this time. We will release a statement this afternoon when we have more details.
If more information is needed, please call 281-779-8459
A kind statement. We couldn't agree more. Our condolences to those who lost loved ones in this tragedy.
Update 3:30
The Coast Guard now says that the production platform will spill no more than 28 gallons of oil into the gulf of Mexico. This more or less confirms earlier reports indicating that the accident will most likely not be a major ecological disaster. [Houston Business Journal]
Update 5:15PM
Here's the latest on the victims from the Coast Guard:
Coast Guard crews are searching for two missing crewmembers following a platform explosion approximately 20 miles southeast of Grand Isle, Friday morning.
Eleven crewmembers have been medevaced from the Black Elk Energy-owned platform to various local hospitals. Nine additional crewmembers were safely evacuated off the platform. The fire has been extinguished, and a sheen has been spotted in the area.
We're still waiting on the official statement that's supposedly coming from Black Elk Energy.
Additional reporting by Leslie Horn
Top image via KLFY 10 Acadiana's Multi-Media News


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Jays brave snowy winters
Curious Nature
Vail, CO Colorado
As the aspens begin to change color and a cloud of condensation follows every breath, we know that winter is on its way. With the arrival of ski season comes the departure of some of our most beloved birds who fly south in search of warmer weather. However, there are a few resilient residents that just can't seem to get away from the mountains, and the jays are among these few.
Jays are medium-sized perching birds that belong to the crow family, Corvidae, which also includes the Clark's nutcracker, black-billed magpie, American crow and the raven, all residents of the Eagle Valley. The two species of jays that you will most commonly see here in the valley are the Steller's jay and the gray jay, who are able to survive the cold winters because of their unique adaptations.
There are a number of physical modifications that these birds have adopted to brave the cold winter, including the ability to control blood flow to their extremities in order to limit heat loss. The jays will also grow extra feathers during their late fall molt to help insulate them in the coming months. Lastly, like many mammals, birds will overindulge on fall abundance so that they build up extra fat reserves to insulate them and provide much-needed energy.
In addition to these physical adaptations, the jays have developed a number of behavioral adaptations that also help them survive winter. Like many other birds, they fluff out their feathers, creating additional air pockets that add to insulation. They also have the ability to crouch, covering their legs and feet from cold air and wind, and will often tuck their beaks into their feathers to keep warm. Birds, like humans, have the ability to shiver, which increases their metabolic rate and generates additional heat.
The average body temperature of birds is 105 degrees Fahrenheit, which can be difficult to sustain when the air temperature drops below zero. Typically, the smaller the bird is, the faster its heart will beat, which means a higher basal metabolic rate, and the faster the heartbeat, the more heat generated. Jays are a medium-sized bird, which means their basal metabolic rate should be slightly lower than that of a small Chickadee. That being said, because they are a wintering bird, their basal metabolic rate is actually about 23 percent higher than that of similar-sized birds that migrate during the winter.
As a species of cold climates, jays can actually enter a state of self-induced hypothermia called torpor, which slows their heart rate and drops their core temperature, similar to an animal in hibernation. Torpor allows birds to lower their body temperature by up to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This adaptation allows them to survive bitter cold nights, but it can also make them more vulnerable to predators because of their decreased reaction time and level of awareness.
One last factor in explaining the jays' ability to brave the cold winters in the Rocky Mountains is their ability to be opportunistic omnivores. Jays, like all members of the Corvidae family, are extremely intelligent. They feed on both plants and animals and will take advantage of any food available. You'll often see the gray jay atop Eagle's Nest on Vail Mountain, scavenging for bits of food left by patrons.
To increase your viewing opportunities, invest in some bird feeders and stock them with sunflower seeds, peanuts or suet. Just be aware that these feeders will attract other animals looking for scarce sustenance during the coming winter months. Keep your feeders clean and your seed fresh, and enjoy the company of these intelligent and entertaining feathered friends.
Jeff Holobeck was a summer naturalist at Walking Mountains Science Center in Avon. Come visit Walking Mountains Mondays through Saturdays from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. or join us for a nature hike at 2 p.m. daily.
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Eagle County bear sightings have doubled from 2019
Are we seeing more bears because there are more bears on the valley floor, or because we're all spending more time at home? It could be a bit of both.


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Gifts for HerGifts NewGifts For Christmas
Home > Gifts for Christmas
Brand: Pets with Personality
Weight: 1.90kg
Please note orders where the weight exceeds 0.9 Kg will be dispatched via courier 3/5 day delivery.This is due to massive increases in charges by Royal Mail.
Staffordshire bull terrier with pup ornament. This Staffy with puppy is from the Pets with Personality range from Arora. 14 cms.
This staffy dog figurine is great fun with this adorable Staffordshire terrier with her puppy. A dog sculpture of this much loved dog breed a very quirky characters typical of the figurines made by the worldwide recognised brand of Arora.
This Staffy dog figure is from the Pets with Personality range. A high quality collectable, the heirlooms of tomorrow. Made of cermistone which gives weight and density to each piece and finished in a high gloss which is achieved by a unique low temperature glaze.
Staffordshire bull terrier dog ornament black£12.99
Staffordshire Bull Terrier figurine Best Of Breed£24.00 £24.99
Your Presents has gifts for all the family from bird ornament figurines to dog ornament figurines and everything in between.
Featuring heavily in the site are dog ornament figurines and cat figures. Some of these collectable animal ornaments are retired pieces and when they have gone they cannot be re-ordered. Brands stocked include are Country Artists, Leonardo, Juliana and Border Fine Arts. We also stock Arora Design Little Paws range of dogs, cats and farmyard ornaments.
We are stockists of Gund Baby. A range of plush bears for Christening gifts, wedding gifts, and many other special occasions gifts. The Blue Nosed Tatty Teddy plush toy is loved worldwide from the prestigious brand of Carte Blanche.Ranges of wildlife figurines from top brands Border Fine Arts, Country Artists and Leonardo including Lion figures, Tiger figurines and many more wildlife collectable ornaments.
We stock an unusual range of trinket boxes from Juliana including dog figures, cat figurines and many more plus a range of mice figurines from different world renowned brands.
Please bookmark us
Retriever dog ornament figurine bronze£35.99
Cobra Snake figurine wildlife Country Artists£69.95 £49.99
Gazelle figurine wildlife Country Artists£29.95 £19.99


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US researchers have developed a cheap and simple method for tracking the location of GSM mobile phones.
Mobile carriers typically transmit unencrypted signals between GSM towers and phones to determine location. This is required for phone services to be provisioned.
But the new research has revealed that anyone running the open source Osmocom GSM software could use the same functionality to determine whether or not a mobile phone is in an area of between one and 100 square kilometers.
"Agents from an oppressive regime may no longer require cooperation from reluctant service providers to determine if dissidents are at a protest location," Denis Foo Kune, computer science PhD student with the University of Minnesota, wrote in a paper.
"Another example could be thieves testing if a user's cell phone is absent from a specific area and therefore deduce the risk level associated with a physical break-in of the victim's residence."
Researchers from the university's science and engineering college tracked the location of a test subject within 800 metres as they walked through a CBD, without help from a phone provider.
To do this, attackers would dial a target's mobile phone number from a mobile phone connected to a laptop.
Osmocom software on the laptop would monitor the relevant GSM network tracking signals and reveal the Location Area Code (LAC) of the target phone.
An attacker then re-dials the phone from within the LAC to pinpoint the base station which the user is connected to.
Provided the attacker hangs up within five seconds, the tracking will complete without the target's phone ringing.
Foo Kune explained that GSM networks needed to "loosly track" phones in a similar fashion to CB radio.
"An incoming voice call requires the network to locate that device so it can allocate the appropriate resources to handle the call," he said.
"Your cell phone network has to at least loosely track your phone within large regions in order to make it easy to find it."
The research was described in the paper "Location Leaks on the GSM Air Interface" presented at the Network & Distributed System Security Symposium in California.
The research group informed US carrier AT&T and Nokia about cheap mitigation techniques that do not require hardware changes.


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Corner topic: Votto, Frazier under scrutiny in Cincy
First baseman hopes knee is in top shape; third baseman takes on everyday role
CINCINNATI -- One corner of the 2013 Reds infield holds the cornerstone of the franchise, first baseman Joey Votto. The other side contains third baseman Todd Frazier, who helped hold the infield foundation together when it was showing some cracks last year due to injury.
While the Reds prepare to defend a National League Central Division crown, both corners of their infield have important tests to pass in Spring Training, and beyond. Is Votto's surgically repaired left knee 100 percent again? And if it is, will it return to him the form that made him one of the best hitters in baseball?
As for Frazier, he played regularly much of last season by filling in for Votto and Scott Rolen. Now he'll be assuming the role of a true everyday player by replacing Rolen. Can he not only make a smooth transition but build on his rookie year success with an even more robust season?
The 2010 NL Most Valuable Player Award winner, Votto doesn't have to prove himself in a manner like Frazier, but his knee will be highly scrutinized during camp. If it's good to go, there will be great relief.
Last month, the 28-year-old Votto wasn't ready to declare his knee 100 percent, but he was pleased with his progress, nonetheless.
"I can run at full speed, do jumping and do a lot of strength work. As far as improving, it's been a great deal," Votto said during Redsfest.
In 2012, Votto batted .337 with 14 home runs, 56 RBIs and a .474 on-base percentage. Despite playing 111 games, he still led the league with 94 walks.
Votto was on his way to an MVP-caliber season when a late June slide into third base at San Francisco injured his left knee. Tests a couple of weeks later revealed a cartilage tear, and he had surgery in mid-July. A setback during rehab forced a second surgical procedure, and Votto wasn't able to return until the first week of September.
After he missed 48 games, it was clear Votto's knee limited his abilities. In 28 regular-season games upon returning, he batted .299 and used his plate discipline to draw 29 walks but had no home runs. And despite his hitting .389 in the five-game NL Division Series loss to the Giants, he had no homers and no RBIs.
"I was certainly upset from getting injured and not being able to play to my potential and have an immediate impact at certain times during games," Votto said. "Time off has done me good, and the chance to strengthen, rehab and recover has helped quite a bit also."
In 128 games during his first full season, Frazier batted .273 with 19 home runs and 67 RBIs and finished third in NL Rookie of the Year balloting. He didn't crack the lineup until mid-May, when Rolen went on the disabled list, but Frazier was indispensable playing first base while Votto was out, batting .305 with eight homers and 32 RBIs during that period.
Cincinnati did not wait for the free agent Rolen to decide if he was playing in 2013 before anointing Frazier as his successor at third base.
"I want to help this team," Frazier said in November. "I want to have that starting role and try to lead again and bring all of that energy that I do."
Although Rolen's production dwindled considerably the past two seasons because of injuries, it still won't be easy to replace an eight-time Gold Glove winner and a possible future Hall of Famer.
Able to play all over the infield and outfield, Frazier has never had a set position in pro baseball. But his defense at third base was more than competent, and he has the opportunity to keep improving with regular time at one spot.
"The bottom line is I'm going into Spring Training with my mind knowing I've got a position," Frazier said. "That's the comfort level I'm talking about: being positive and understanding you are the best at what you do. I will just keep grinding and keep having fun."
The Reds will have added depth at third base with the arrival of free agent Jack Hannahan, who signed a two-year, $4 million contract in December. Hannahan, a 32-year-old lefty hitter for the bench, spent his last two seasons in Cleveland. In 105 games in 2012, he batted .244 with four homers and 29 RBIs but missed some time with a back injury.
Another former Indians player, Jason Donald, played 12 games at third base last season. Donald, a utility player who was part of the trade that brought Shin-Soo Choo to Cincinnati, batted only .202 in 43 games last season but is a .257 career hitter.
Should Votto need a day off, Frazier could always move over to first base, and Hannahan can step up to third base. If more depth is needed at first base, the Reds could look to prospect Neftali Soto, who hit 14 homers with 59 RBIs at Triple-A Louisville last season. Soto also set a career high with 116 strikeouts in 122 games.


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Chevrolet Red Carpet Show to roll through Manhattan
NEW YORK -- Lights. Camera. All-Stars.
As if there wasn't enough pomp and circumstance that naturally accompanies an All-Star Game being held in the city that never sleeps, let's not forget one more layer that has become a staple of the Midsummer Classic for the better part of a decade: The All-Star Red Carpet Show, presented by Chevrolet.
All members of the 2013 National and American League All-Star teams will parade through Midtown Manhattan on Tuesday afternoon beginning at 1 p.m. ET, giving fans a free-of-charge opportunity to see their favorite players up close just before the teams make their way to Citi Field for the 84th Major League Baseball All-Star Game.
The sound of honking taxis and the sight of gridlocked traffic will, for one hour at least, dissipate in order to make room for open-air Chevrolet vehicles that will carry the All-Stars. The parade will move approximately 80,000 square feet on a red carpet, beginning at Bryant Park on 42nd Street and Sixth Ave., continuing past Grand Central Terminal and ending at 42nd Street and Third Ave.
Current All-Stars aren't the only baseball dignitaries to participate in the Red Carpet Show. The Grand Marshal will be none other than Hall of Famer Tom Seaver, who started his career as a Met in 1967 and won 198 games over 12 seasons in New York. Both All-Star managers -- San Francisco skipper Bruce Bochy and Detroit's Jim Leyland -- will be on parade, as will several Mets legends, including Al Leiter, Mike Piazza, Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry.
Additionally, the 30 PEOPLE Magazine "Tribute for Heroes" winners will be there, as will Major League mascots and the World Series trophy, crafted by Tiffany & Company and claimed by the champion Giants last October.
The Red Carpet Show started in Detroit for the 2005 All-Star Game and was well received by the fans, gaining momentum every year. The Roberto Clemente family served as grand marshals over the Clemente Bridge in Pittsburgh the following year, and every year after that, the Red Carpet Show provided a special flair that was exclusive to the local fan base.
MLB Network will telecast the event at 3:00 p.m. ET, with a simulcast available on MLB.com. MLB Network also will air a shorter version at 7:30 p.m.
The final phase of All-Star Game voting will again have fans participating in the official voting for the Ted Williams All-Star Game Most Valuable Player Award presented by Chevrolet. During the Midsummer Classic, fans will vote exclusively online at MLB.com via the 2013 All-Star Game MLB.com MVP Vote, and their voice will represent 20 percent of the official vote determining the recipient of the Arch Ward Trophy.
The 2013 All-Star Game will be played at Citi Field on Tuesday. Come to MLB.com for extensive online coverage of the All-Star Week festivities.
The 84th All-Star Game will be televised nationally by FOX Sports, in Canada by Rogers Sportsnet and RDS, and worldwide by partners in more than 200 countries via MLB International's independent feed. ESPN Radio and ESPN Radio Deportes will provide national radio coverage of the All-Star Game. MLB Network and SiriusXM also will also provide comprehensive All-Star Week coverage. For more information, please visit allstargame.com.


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Top Salesforce interview questions and answers
1. What is Salesforce ?
Salesforce is Customer relationship management (CRM) software that is available to users as a software as a service (SaaS) application.
2. What is App in Salesforce?
In Sales force an App is a group of tabs that work as a unit to provide functionality. Users can switch between multiple apps using the Force.com app drop-down menu at the top-right corner of every page.
You can customize your existing apps to match the way you work, or build new apps by grouping standard and custom tabs.
You can create a new app by clicking Setup ->Build ->Create->App-> Click on new from navigation.
3. What is the benefit of Salesforce CRM ?
Below are top benefits of using Salesforce CRM
It Ensures faster and better sales opportunity
Reducing cost and improving customer satisfaction level
Deploying an analytical approach to customer acquisition
Automation of repetitive tasks.
4. Explain Opportunity in Salesforce ?
An opportunity is a potential revenue-generating event. May be associated with accounts and contacts.
5. How many workflow rules can you create per entity ?
You can generate 25 workflow rules per entity.
6. How many relationships are included in SFDC ?
There are two important relationships in Salesforce. They are
Lookup relationship
Master detail relationship
7.List the various types of Reports available in Salesforce ?
In Salesforce four types of reports are available they are as follows .
Tabular report : In this the grand total is displayed in a table format.
Matrix report : An in-depth report wherein the there is both row –based and column-based grouping.
Summary report : A report in which the grouping is on the column basis.
Joined report : A joining of two or more reports into one
8. How can you create Many to Many relationship in salesforce ?
We can create many to Many relationship in salesforce by using junction object. Junction object is a custom object with two master detail relationships.
9. List the various object relations are available Salesforce ?
There are three types of object realations are available in Salesforce , they are
One to many.
Many to many.
Master detail
10. Explain "Lookup Relationship" in Salesforce ?
Lookup relationship links two objects in Salesforce .
25 Lookup relationship are allowed for an object
Parent field is not required.
There is no impact on deletion.
Can be multiple layers deep.
Lookup field is not required.
No impact on a security and access.
11. Explain "Master-Detail Relationship" in Salesforce ?
Master-Detail Relationship is the Parent child relationship. In which Master represents Parent and detail represents Child.In this relationship,if parent is deleted then Child also gets deleted.
Rollup summary fields can only be created on Master records which will calculate the SUM, AVG, MIN of the Child records.
Up to 2 Master-Detail Relationships are allowed to an object.
Parent field on child is required.
Access to parent determines access to children.
Deleting parent automatically deletes child.
A child of one master detail relationship cannot be the parent of another.
Lookup field on page layout is required.
12. What is Case in Salesforce ?
In Salesforce Case is a detailed description of a customer's problems, questions, and feedback. Usually associated with accounts and contacts.
13. Can a dependent field be a controlling field as well in Salesforce ?
Yes, a controlling field Can a dependent field in Salesforce.
14. What data types are supported by External ID's in Salesforce.com ?
Text, Email, Number .
15. How many days are are items saved in the recycle bin of Salesforce ?
Fifteen items are saved in the recycle bin of Salesforce.
16. What are Standard Fields in Salesforce ?
Standard Fields are predefined fields in Salesforce, cannot be deleted, can be removed from a page layout, and can have limited customizations: changing labels, adding help text, adding/editing values in picklists, adding/editing lookup filters, setting field history tracking, changing the format of auto-number fields.
17. What is Field-Level Security in Salesforce ?
Field-Level Security defines user ability to view and edit fields in Salesforce, helps enforce data security, helps ensure that users view only relevant data. This affects list views, search results, and reports.
18. Explain Campaign in Salesforce ?
Campaigns are marketing projects that you plan, manage, and track within Salesforce. May have related leads and contacts, shown as campaign members, and opportunities.
19. What are the different editions of Salesforce?
Enterprise, Group, Unlimited, Professional, and Developer editions
20. How many Custom Objects you can create in Enterprise Edition ?
You can create 200 custom objects in Enterprise Edition.
21. Types of Sand boxes available
1)Developer Sandbox
2)Developer pro sandbox
3)Partial data sandbox
4)Full copy sandbox


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One would scarcely guess that a mighty ancient city once occupied the site of Gabii as it is today simply a quiet spot in the eastern suburbs of Rome, Italy. Yet a quick look at the physical landscape and its now dormant volcanic features makes it plain why a first millennium BCE city grew – and prospered – here. The Gabines found themselves at a key crossroads, positioning them well to capitalize on trade in central Italy and to eventually enjoy unprecedented political and ritual friendship with Rome herself, as described by the ancient authors.
It was perhaps the fact that the site of Gabii is now abandoned – a rarity for the ancient Latin cities, shared perhaps only with Tusculum – that attracted a team from the University of Michigan to begin work on the site in 2007. A key question for the Gabii Project team then (and now) revolved around a great curiosity of the beginnings of urbanism and its processes in Italy, along with a full exploration of the material culture correlates for the emergence of social hierarchy in Latium. A two-phase geophysical survey revealed a latent street grid that proved a worthy impetus for excavations to begin in 2009.
Fast forward three years to June 2012 … the project has now completed two survey seasons, three excavation seasons, and is embarking on its fourth excavation season. Our multi-national team brings students at all levels from all over the world to work in the heart of this extinct Latin city where they learn first-hand the cutting edge techniques of field archaeology. The site is offering up a complex narrative of settlement and abandonment that begins with evidence for Orientalizing period elite burial of infants and continues to Imperial Roman inhumation burials and industrial works, especially those aimed at exploiting the local tufo bedrock. In the middle of the story, so to speak, is a fascinating glimpse of what Italy was like at the mid-point of the first millennium BCE, when archaic elites lost traction and gave way to a differently organized society. The physical evidence of this at Gabii comes in the form of abandoned archaic compounds giving way to a quasi-orthogonal town plan that changes the alignment and apportionment of the city itself.
Our team has been in the field for over two weeks thus far in 2012 and while on June 29 we were idled by a public holiday in Rome, the day was a good one for reflection on the project, its participants, and its aims. The dual goals of excavating early Italian urbanism and helping to train a new generation of field archaeologists work surprisingly well in the pluristratified urban contexts of this Latin site. The team looks forward to unlocking more of Gabii's secrets in the coming weeks and years.


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Dave Guertin and Greg Baldwin sign at Chapel Hill Comics on Saturday, October 1st from 2-4pm!
Press Release:
Chapel Hill Comics is proud to announce a signing with CreatureBox. We'll have copies of Spider Island: I ? New York, which features an 8-page Spider-Kitty story with art by CreatureBox. It's got fantastic art, and it's just four bucks!
We'll also have copies of the Ratchet and Clank paperback collection, since CreatureBox illustrated the covers for the series! At this point, you'd be forgiven for asking, "Just who or what is CreatureBox?"
At its core, CreatureBox is for anyone who enjoys bizarre monster design, comics of spacemen, and illustrations of everything in between. For the past several years, Dave Guertin and Greg Baldwin have spent most of their time digging deep into what makes characters tick while trying to tell a few stories along the way.
They've had influential childhoods filled with cartoons, robots, aliens, and creatures of all shapes and sizes.
Yet through it all they've found collaboration to be the most critical ingredient. Together this has allowed them to expand their sensibilities while challenging each other to become better designers. Through Creaturebox.com, visitors are invited along for the ride as Dave and Greg dive into the deep end.
Chapel Hill Comics
316 W Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, NC 27516
(919) 967-4439