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ctnchpr's Asclepias variegata Seed recipients
May I ask a favor?
Would those of you who were fortunate to receive Red Ring Milkweed seeds from ctnchpr via Jeff recently, please come back and tell us how you fared with getting them to germinate, as well as the germination methods you tried?
If one is able to locate seed of this milkweed, it appears to be quite difficult to get them to germinate. I would love to hear what method everyone tried with their seeds to use as a reference for future attempts at germination.
My thanks for your time.
Mary, I will be glad to pass along a report next summer with the germination results, either good or bad, and percentages. Hope everyone has a good winter and a happy Thanksgiving and Christmas.
P.S. Thanks so much to Jeff for dividing up & mailing the seed and to ctnchpr for supplying them.
Hi Mark,
Thank you. I'll look forward to your report next summer.
I've about decided to cold stratify my seed in the fridge for 8 weeks, placing half the seeds in a damp coffee filter inside a plastic zip lock and the other half in a damp potting soil & perlite mix, sealed in a plastic bag. The first of January, I'll place them in the house at about 70 degrees and see if I can get germination. This way, we'll have at least two different methods to compare.
These small seeds are like little pieces of gold. I'm rather nervous about trying to germinate them for fear I'll waste them! I've searched and searched and just can't find much at all regarding propagating these plants.
Thank you Jeff and ctnchpr for your generosity and good luck to all.
Want to report on my progress so far and hope I don't jinx my little seeds! :-)
I kept the 8 seeds I received in the fridge, resting in a damp coffee filter wrapped inside a damp paper towel and placed in a zip lock baggie.
I took one seed out after a month and tried to germinate it indoors. Nothing so far.
At 5 weeks, I took another seed out and tried to germinate it; nothing so far.
At 6 weeks, I took two more seeds out and tried to germinate them indoors. Nothing so far.
At eight weeks, I took the remaining four seeds out and planted them indoors under the same conditions. Within 7 days, all four seeds are popping up. Two are up but the seed covers have not yet popped off and the other two are still lifting the seed covers out of the soil but all four seeds are germinating. Now to see if I can keep them alive and growing!
All the seeds were planted in ProMix potting soil but with the final 4 seeds, I covered them lightly in damp vermiculite rather than lightly covering them with the potting soil. Doubt that would make a difference but thought I'd pass along exactly what I did.
Based on what I've seen so far, a cold moist treatment of at __least 8 weeks_ might be helpful when attempting to germinate Asclepias variegata seed - AKA Red Ring Milkweed.
Has anyone else had any luck?
Nice to hear of your success. I have my seed still in cold/moist treatment and will plant outside in early March. Mark
So far so good. First true leaves are out and I can see the beginnings of the second set. As soon as they pushed off the seed coatings, I moved the seedlings out to the greenhouse so they're enjoying a cooler climate than they would have in the house.
Mary, Sounds like you are on the way to having plants. Keep us posted. Mine are still in the fridge waiting for spring.
I wintersowed mine a couple of days after I received them. So they were sown in late October, before the weather got really cold. I hope that this will provide a similar cold/moist environment and they will sprout when it gets warmer!
Oh, great news, Becky. Thank you for posting to let us know what method you're using. Now we'll have another method of germination to use for comparison.
Hopefully, these seeds are viable and everyone will have great success. Please come back and let us know how they do. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for my little seedlings. Every time I go into the greenhouse, they're the first ones I check.
Good to hear the seeds are sprouting well for you, Mary-littlerock.
I received 8 seeds in the fall and just winter-sowed them in 2-ltr bottles on February 3rd. 2 bottles with 4 seeds each. Will keep this thread posted on how they germinate.
I've also got 1 small plant from the 2007 seeds, and am wondering how that will do this year after having been completely defoliated by slugs last year.
Update on my Asclepias variegata seedlings.
They are continuing to grow. They now have two sets of true leaves and on two of the seedlings, there is tiny new growth developing along the stalk where the seed leaves are still attached.
The true leaves look a bit like plants do that are in need of iron; veins darker than the interconnecting leaf tissue. I've never grown this plant so I don't know if this is normal for these tiny seedlings at this stage of their development. They were planted in and are growing in individual root trainers containing ProMix Potting Mix and are residing in a cool greenhouse.
Keeping my fingers crossed for everyone's seed germination success this spring.
Hi Mary, Good news. All the asclepias seed I have germinated in years past have the color you are talking about. As the weather warms up you can feed them with a dilute fertilizer(1/4 to 1/2 strength) and they will fully color up. Keep up the good work. It will still be a few weeks before I will plant out my seed that are in the fridge.
Hi Mark,
My thanks for the information regarding the leaf color. It is reassuring to know this is rather common with these little seedlings. Third set of true leaves have emerged and the seedlings are still standing up straight! :-) So far, so good. Can hardly wait for warmer weather and to be able to plant the seedlings out and watch them grow.
We're still having nights below freezing so haven't seen anything in the way of green growth on the little wild redring transplant (transplant authorized by landowner of commercial property). Daylillies are putting up green growth, eyes of hosta and Lily of the Valley are beginning to show and buds are swelling on a new spirea 'SnowStorm' shrub but that's it so far. Birds are busy digging and singing so it won't be long now til spring begins in our neck of the woods.
I'm back to ask for more advice. :-)
My oldest Asclepias variegata seedlings now have four true leaves. Should I transplant them into a larger pot now? I have them growing in 5 inch root trainers (sides taper down to a small opening at the bottom). I think they're designed to supposedly air prune the roots of the seedlings. I don't know a lot about growing plants from seedlings so really unsure when I should transplant them into something bigger. Do I just leave them be until the weather is warm enough to plant outside?
If they were in the wild, they'd have lots of room to spread their roots so I worry that they need more space to spread out.
I would leave them until it's warm enough to plant in the ground. Maybe that won't be long. Some of my most robust plants are growing within the drip line of a massive White oak and an almost-massive Sweetgum. You can imagine the competition for root space there. They don't need much.
I Winter-sowed my 8 seeds, nothing yet, but it's still cold.
Hi Mary,
I would recommend you wait and plant them in the ground where you want to grow them once it warms up as per ctnchpr. I just planted my seed outside yesterday after 8+ weeks of moist/cold stratifaction. I'll keep you posted on their progress as promised. Glad to see ctnchpr active on this thread. Seems as though they have given lots of seed of A. variegata to folks over the years. I hope they get good seed set this year also.
Regards, Mark
ctnchpr and Mark, my thanks for the helpful advice. They will stay in their root trainers until time to plant out in their forever spot.
ctnchpr, my thanks also for the tip on growing location (and for generously sharing these very special little seeds). Ironically, we paid $1500 last spring to have some oaks trunked up to allow for a bit more light for my small garden area. Now I've trying to figure out how to provide some relief from direct sun for my little wild transplant! :-) If nothing else, we can build a little lath house to cover it. Right now my plan is to plant a couple of Asclepias physocarpa seedlings to the south of the wild redring, hoping it's height will provide nice dappled sunlight. That's another plant I'm anxious to watch develop this summer. It will be an annual for me but starting from seed seems to be quite easy, so shouldn't be a problem replanting each year if it does well and the little Monarch beauties like it.
Hopefully, I will choose a better growing spot for my little A. Variegata seedlings!
Mark, best of luck with your wintersown seeds. It's going to be a fun growing season.
I'm sorry that I've misled you. I only gave that example to show how well they compete for root space. They don't need to be grown in the shade. Several of my plants get 4-5 hours of hot, West Tn midday sun. (Being from Little Rock, I'm sure you know what that feels like!) In fact, the plant that produced last year's only pod gets about 6 hours midday sun. There's also a plant that grows on the bank of Eastbound I-40 in Natchez Trace State Park. It gets sun all day, and is exposed to constant auto and diesel fumes. They're not dainty!
Two of my seeds have sprouted. They still have the seed shell stuck over the seed leaves. I hope the leaves will be able to pop out! I wintersowed the seeds and they are in a covered container for now. Hope more will germinate!
Congratulations!! I'm so excited for you! The advice given to me was to let them be and don't try to help them.
I'm rather new to growing plants from seed so not much personal experience but I can tell you that it can take a few days for the emerging seed leaves to pop the coverings off, based on my very limited experience with these little seedlings. They will manage, given time.
It has been very informative reading about other people's experiences with their seed. Mine were put in cold moist stratification for 8 weeks. I had one germinate after a couple of weeks. It looks happy in its milk jug. I had a slight problem with yellowing in between the veins. I cannot wait to plant it out. The rest of the seed was put back for some more stratification. I love my plant. Thank you very much ctnchpr for sharing the seed.
Today I'm planting out my A variegata seedlings. It is warm enough here the little wild transplant is putting up shoots so figure it is warm enough for the seedlings. I've been leaving the greenhouse open the past week, to give the plants a chance to adjust to the nightime temps. I think I will put a little collar around the base of each seedling, in case there's some crawling chewing insects that might make a dinner of the little plants. Other than that, they will be on their own other than watering. Will let everyone know how they progress. Woohoo, spring has sprung in my area!
The transplanted A variegata seedlings are still alive and I believe settling in as the two larger seedlings are beginning to put out tiny new leaves at the top.
Also, please DON'T give up on your seeds. The seeds I tried to germinate early without a full 8 weeks of cold statification are now coming up! This gives me 7 seedlings out of the eight seeds I received.
Seed germination is not an exact science, that's for sure. :-)
I sowed 2 containers with 4 seeds each, and am happy to report that there is now 1 small sprout in each container! Looks like I'll have some new A. variegata plants this year. The one little plant in the ground hasn't come up yet, but neither has most of the other Asclepias. Only the A. tuberosa in a warm spot in the front garden is poking up.
Hoping for lots of Milkweed and Monarch butterflies this year! I enjoy collecting the eggs and raising them indoors, but last year it was so cool and rainy in the Northeast, there were very few Monarchs butterflies in the region.
I'm so happy for your success! Doesn't it make you feel good to think you're helping to propagate a milkweed that is on the decline in it's native element. Maybe one day we'll all be in a position to be as generous with seed as ctnchpr has been with us.
My little seedlings continue to hold their own. I'm not certain how much growth they will put on their first year but as long as they're green and standing upright, I'm happy.
My little wild A variegata is budding on a single tall stalk. Looks like two, maybe three little flower buds on the tip top of a stalk that is at least 24, maybe even 30 inches high. It's the oddest looking sight; the few leaves on the stalk appear healthy. So now to watch and hope it blooms and makes a seed pod. There were five other eyes showing at ground level some time back but they're no where to be seen now. I think something crawled up during the night and ate them! In hindsight, I should have placed a collar around the base in early spring, just to give it a chance to produce as many stalks as it could this year. All my little seedlings have collars made out of toilet tissue tubes and so far, so good keeping the creepy crawlies at bay.
I hope you have lots of Monarch babies this spring and summer. I am hand raising some right now and I'll try and send them your way. :-)
Hi Folks(especially ctnchpr),
Just curious if ctnchpr's plants of A. variegata set any seed this year?? I didn't have any luck with the ones I got through Jeff but had some I got from others germinate well.
Thanks so much, Mark
Hi Mark,
No seed pods here. I had 11 nice sized blooms on my transplanted wild A. variegata and non set seed. My other little plants that were new this year did not produce blooms. It was a terrible summer 'temp wise', with successive days running over 100, so I'm just thankful the new plants managed to survive. There's always next year!
Hope other seed recipients were more successful.
Mary, it is so good to see you post! We miss you over on the BF Forum.
I just wanted to add that a lot of folks had problems with any of the milkweeds bearing fruit this summer. I had none on my A. physocarpa or my A. curassavica, or my A. incarnata. I think it had to do with our horrible weather, too. Plus, I had so many milkweed leaf beetles and milkweed bugs, I just couldn't keep up with hand picking.
I ended up with 4 seedlings from the Ctnpchr seeds this year, 2 seedlings from 2009 seeds and 2 seedlings from the 2007 seeds. For the heck of it I threw a bunch of 2007 seeds in a couple 2 liter bottles, and was surprised to get a couple sprouts!
This is a challenging plant to grow, and my biggest concern for these seedlings is that they aren't going to be hardy in this zone, especially considering their origin in the southeastern US where this species is most abundant. But I've finally figured out this fall where to plant the A. variegata seedlings - at the southeastern corner of the house, adjacent to a little stone wall, sloping with good drainage and partial sun. This location, being close to the house and mostly protected from winter winds, will hopefully create a little microclimate that is a zone or 2 warmer than the rest of the yard.
Happy Spring to all! :-)
I'm reporting in regarding the progress of my Asclepias variegata seedlings. All survived last summers hot summer and extreme cold this past winter. They seem to be fairly hardy, once rooted. One I even pinched off this spring, thinking it was a tiny oak seedling that the little squirrels had planted. It came back for a second try and by then, I recognized it. Woo hoo.
So far, three of last years babies look like they're putting on tiny flower buds. My wild A variegata put up four stalks this spring and all have flower buds on them. We've had awfully strong thunderstorms this spring and even a bit of hail, which broke some of the leaves but the plants are still alive. I so want to baby them in some way but am trying to keep my hands off and let them become established and go their own way, as they would have to do in the wild.
I'm so hoping for a seed pod this year and will let everyone know if one magically appears.
How are your A variegata seedlings doing?
Hi Mary, glad to hear your plants are doing okay. Unfortunately, mine do not appear to have survived the brutal winter we had. :( No sign of growth yet, even though I'm seeing growth on most of the other milkweeds. My seedlings of Asclepias exaltata and A. speciosa made it, even though the emerging plants are tiny. What a bummer.
I would like to keep trying to grow this plant, although it may be a lost cause in this zone.
Hi Terrene,
I'm so sorry your little A variegata didn't make it. We had such a hot summer, then an unusually cold winter that I was quite surprised when my little plants came back this spring.
I'm now beginning to watch for signs of a seed pod. Little flying creatures are few and far between around here this spring. Perhaps they were killed off during the extremely cold winter. I think I may try and hand pollinate a few of the blossoms. I tried it last year and had no success. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
Mary, I planted out all the milkweed seedlings in the fall, and I don't think the A. variegata had enough time to get established. I wish I'd put them in the garage to overwinter.
It also appears the A. purpurascens didn't come back either! Which is odd, because I have 3 year old purple milkweeds that were growing in the same garden, and are doing great and will probably flower this year for the 1st time.
The 2nd year incarnata, speciosa, and exaltata plants are doing okay.
The Asclepias species are really not that easy to grow, A. variegata seems especially difficult.
I don't have any idea what the blooms might look like if they become pollinated but please, everyone, keep your fingers crossed that we get a pod or two this year.
Here's the little wild A variegata this spring, more stalks and blooms than last year.
Here's one of the babies, blooming this year. Other blooms didn't mature on two other baby plants that tried to set flowers.
Mary, just wanted to say nice pics and your plant is looking great. Hope it sets seed this year. I'm still amazed that you found that little scrapper wild in a field somewhere!
Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I didn't get one seed pod this year. If I was able to keep the plants alive through our terrible hot, dry summer, will hope for seed pods next year! :-)
I wonder how ctnchpr's stand of RR MW did this summer? He lives in an area that also had terrible heat and little if any rain this summer.
Anyone else have any luck?
Hello Mary. I wanted to relay my experience to you for a very specific reason. You see, 2 years ago I obtained some seeds of A. variegata from a friend in Groton, CT who had obtained them from you. I think she gave me about a dozen seeds. Two years ago, I planted 6 of them, 2 seeds each in 2 gallon pots. Out of the 3 pots, 4 seedlings emerged. And then the slugs found them and devoured all completely but 1. This survived the summer largely gnawed on, barely, but never emerged from the soil this past spring, 2012. I germinated the remaining 6 seeds in 2 pots of 3 seeds each in 2012. I had all 3 germinate in one pot and 2 in the other, plus, I used slug bait to deter the voracious slugs in my yard. (I didn't want to do it, but considering the ridiculous level of damage they do to all of my native seedlings, I had to do something drastic). Amazingly, most of the little seedlings were subsequently devoured by Monarch caterpillars. They really seem to love the seedlings. You see, I had a large flat of Asclepias incarnata nearby, about 100 seedlings. The monarch butterflies found this and promptly about two dozen caterpillars appeared and I didn't have the heart to pot-out the incarnata. The caterpillars roamed about, eating all but a couple dozen incarnata seedlings as well as devouring most of the variegata seedlings. Very quickly, I might add. BTW: The bait didn't seem to bother the caterpillars at all. Apparently the seedlings don't take the poison up or they simply didn't ingest enough to bother them. I have been keeping the pot with the surviving seedling in an unheated attached garage to protect the young seedling, rarely going below freezing, but often close to that, but I do hope to find a suitable microclimate for it in my small yard. I stratified all of these seeds for a minimum of 90 days, and I consider that I got a reasonable rate of germination. Well, I only have the one seedling after 2 years, and it remains to be seen whether it germinates the second spring. I will try to keep you posted. Charlie.
Here is an interesting bit about how milkweeds get pollinated. Sounds tricky.
Here is a link that might be useful: Milkweed pollinatin.
Hi Folks,
Been quite a while since I've chimed in here. Yesterday I was checking my seed containers and low and behold the seeds from 3 years ago are germinating. I have 6 of them popping up. I was floored to say the least. Any way I have been trying some new methods which seem to work much better for me.In the past I have been giving the seed a moist cold treatment either in the fridge or
outside(winter sowing). By accident last year I placed several packets of seed in the fridge without any added moisture. I also left several packets (from the same group) outside exposed to the winter temps. I decided to just go ahead and sow them last spring in March and they germinated within 3 weeks. I think every single one of them! So this year I did the same thing and sowed them in early February and they germinated even quicker. The ones from last year that I gave moisture to only had a few seedlings to germinate. I'm now wondering if the moisture may be killing the embryos. I also did the same thing this year with the following species A. viridiflora, verticillata, purpurascens, exalta, asperula and incarnata with the same results although all these species took a little longer to start germinating.
Just thought you all might be interested in my discovery.
I found your post quite interesting as I read another place this spring about moisture preventing germination of asclepias seeds. I think the information came from Native Plants in Texas. Monarch Watch is making a big effort to grow and make available a lot of different species throughout the US. I noticed that variegata is on their list, but not for my state. So, there is a push to get Asclepias planted throughout the Monarch migration flyway.
I have variegata seeds in moist sand in the fridge. I'm hoping these seeds germinate this spring. I also read that the seeds should not be handled but you should wear gloves. And conditions should be kept absolutely sterile. I have stratified a number of species this spring using the damp sand method. However, some species did not germinate at all. I wondered about the source. But, it may be my methods. So, in the future I will try some new ways, including your way of just using cold.
Hope to see someone posting that they get seed pods this summer. I have two variegata plants that have survived the gophers (they ate at least 6 plants). These should flower, and I will do some hand pollination. I hand pollinated a Purple MW two years ago and got an abundance of seed pods. I left the flowers alone last year and had no pods at all. I totally agree that asclepias is a challenging species to grow. Only the Phycocarpus and the curassavica grow easily for me, and these aren't natives and are annuals in my area. I currently have seedlings of pumila, ovafolia, common, Davis, speciosa, viridis, Sullivan's and others. My first batch of Purple did not germinate; but the seeds did not look good (bought them from the same online source as the other seeds that didn't germinate). The last seeds came from Prairie Moon Nursery. I always get good seed germination from their seeds. So, hopefully, I will get some new Purple plants. Purpurascens and variegata are my absolute favorites.
Good luck to all of you who are trying to get this plant growing and seeding. And, thanks for sharing your experiences which help all of us in our endeavors.
Mark, it's so nice to see you posting. I must visit this forum more often.
Sandy, what do you use to hand pollinate your milkweed? I'm going to try that each day until my A variegata blooms are gone. Maybe I'll get lucky and get a seed pod, either by this method or by natural occurance. I've looked up photos of the seed pod and it matures at a very large size, in comparison to the plant. Judging by the size, even one seed pod should provide quite a few seeds.
Hi Lady,
Hope you have been doing well. I had a little success last year using tweezers and following the direction on the website. I would recommend you print it out and also watch the video several times as it really covers the process pretty well. I did get 6 pods to form out of about 25 plants I worked with. Not good percentages but better than nothing. I was actually out this past Saturday doing it again and have a few more to try as they open over the next few weeks. I'm attaching a couple of photos from the plants I pollinated this past weekend for your enjoyment and here is the link to the website:
Germination this winter/spring has been pretty good also. I have plants that are already 6-7" tall that germinated in February and in the same seed flats I've just had another flush of seedlings to germinate. A little strange but glad to have them at least germinating. I actually planted out 18 of the biggest seedlings last week in the garden to see how they will do.
Keep in touch.
I forgot the photos so here they are.
And here is the second one.
And a little side note and teaser-Asclepias quadrifolia is becoming one of my new favorites. It's like a miniature variegata with the extra bonus of incredible fragrance. They open here in NC yesterday.
Hi Mark,
Great photo's of lovely plants! They all look so healthy; you are an excellent steward of the land. And thank you for sharing the photo of the Asclepias quadrifolia. I have read that name this year somewhere and didn't know a thing about it. It looks like a dainty woodland wildflower, which, come to think of it, is exactly what it is! :-)
Thanks, also, for the heads up on the steps to take to pollinate the milkweed. Six seed pods is fantastic! I tried using the tiny watercolor brush again today and I believe I was pulling out the pollinium, but not certain I ever got it to hang on a new flower. I'll have to get out tomorrow and buy some needle nosed tweezers and give that a try. My eyes aren't good so not certain I can handle such a delicate procedure but willing to try. I would like to watch one A variegata seed pod develop during my lifetime, just for the experience.
Thanks once again for the encouragement and for sharing photo's of your beautiful milkweed. Twenty five A variegata plants is amazing (and with little seedlings still to plant)!
I just checked this site today after being gone for a while. Mary, I used the method that was shown on Youtube to pollinate the milkweeds. I had good success with Purple MW, but did not have success with the variegata. Two of my small variegata plants did emerge--these were purchased from Mary Ann at Pine Ridge Nursery in 2011 . I put them in pots last fall that I left out and sunk in the garden. This spring, I made the hardware cloth baskets and planted them. They are very tiny still as the gophers had devoured quite a bit of the roots. However, one has three small plants; and the other has two. Of the seeds I purchased, I have had zero germination. I know that one other person who purchased seed has not had germination either. I am going to plant all the seeds and set them outside to see what will happen. Hopefully, they will eventually germinate. The seed seller said to let them dry out and then restratify them. But, I'm inclined to let Nature take over from here. I've started some other types of MW with good success. I just have to make some more hardware baskets for planting. It's a lot of work to make the baskets and dig out the garden where they will be planted. But if it saves the plants, it will be worth it.
I appreciate the information that everyone has posted on this thread. If anyone gets seed to share, I would like to be remembered as someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to get this plant going.
Hi Folks,
I've been out in California attending the Native Orchid Conference in Oroville since 6/7.Heading home today and have some time to kill at the airport in Sacramento so I thought I report of my findings. Milkweed here are really different than our east coast species. I did find one I had never seen before that I was able to collect seed from at a lower elevation than the one I photographed. Thought you all might enjoy seeing it although it isn't A. variegata.. Hopefully I'll be able to germinate these seed with the success I've been having with our east coast species. Also saw tons of A. speciosa which look a lot like A. syracia.
Hi Folks,
I've been out in California attending the Native Orchid Conference in Oroville since 6/7.Heading home today and have some time to kill at the airport in Sacramento so I thought I report of my findings. Milkweed here are really different than our east coast species. I did find one I had never seen before that I was able to collect seed from at a lower elevation than the one I photographed. Thought you all might enjoy seeing it although it isn't A. variegata.. Hopefully I'll be able to germinate these seed with the success I've been having with our east coast species. Also saw tons of A. speciosa which look a lot like A. syracia.
What interesting two tone coloring. Have you been able to ID it?
I'm sorry folks- it is Asclepias cordifolia (Purple Milkweed). The foliage is actually nicer than the flowers. It is silver gray - looks almost like a Eucalyptus leaf. I've enclosed another photo showing the leaves better.
I hope you will find this message. I have an A. purpurea and would like to hand pollinate it. I saw the video.
However, how long should I wait after the flowers bloom before trying to hand pollinate?
Once the flowers open, when should I to hand pollinate? Same day, wait a few days, a week?
I tried searching on the internet but didn't find any pertinent info.
Also, if anyone else knows, I would be much obliged.
I would recommend that you wait for 2-3 days after the flowers open to try hand pollinating them. A good sign is when you see any insects visiting the flowers try to pollinate them as they should be receptive to pollen. Good Luck! and let us know how you do.
Tina, sorry I didn't see your message yesterday. You got good advice from Mark. The insects will indicate when the flowers are ready. Have you watched the video on Youtube that shows how to pollinate the flowers? It is very informative. I used very fine needled tweezers-- the ones with bent ends. I hope it works for you and you get a lot of seed pods.
I just came in from finding my biggest Purple MW partially pulled into the ground by my resident gopher. Thankfully, I was in time to rescue one stem of the plant that still had some roots attached. It's now in a pot, and I removed most of the leaves to feed the Monarch cats I'm raising. I have a dozen small plants that I started from seed. If you get good seed, this is an easy milkweed to grow from seed. My seed came from Prairie Moon.
Hi there, milkweed aficionados!
I must say I really enjoyed reading this thread, and learning something new about how milkweeds are pollinated. I went out and tried it on my A. incarnata, and was easily able to lift several pollinium; but, like Mary said, not sure if I got it cross-pollinated into the right spot... I guess I'm not completely sure exactly where it goes. Right back in the same place it came from, but on a different flower?
I have lucked up with 2 A. variegata plants showing up and blooming this year on our 4 acres. They were approx. 25 yards apart from each other, and being visited some (but not extensively) by pollinators. I did not get any seed pods; bummer! Wish I had known about the unusual pollination strategy of milkweeds while they were blooming, because I surely would have tried it myself.
I do have seeds from my A. viridis to share, if anyone is interested.
Go, bumble, GO!
This post was edited by kchd on Fri, Jun 28, 13 at 17:40
i would love some of your A. viridis seed. I've been trying to locate some viable seed for several years now with no luck.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
Sure thing, Mark! I sent you an email.
Any other takers?
Terrene, I already have a pack with your name on it ;)
Katie, your MWs look very healthy.
The A. viridis looks better than the ones on the internet.
I would like seeds. My concern is that it is not distributed in CT as listed on wildflowers.org.
Not sure if I should be introducing it to here.
Tina, you are right; A. viridis is not listed as present in the Northeast US. It is reported to be hardy to zone 4. So, it is up to you depending on how much of a strictly native garden you'd like to grow. :) I'm not a complete purist, but I strive to that end.
It's possible A variegata will bloom again later in the season. I've had that happen when seed pods didn't form. So be on the look-out. Viridis is doing well this season here in Oklahoma. I have been collecting pods, and will also have some seeds to share if you run out. I found a plant with beautiful deep purple tinged leaves that I'm waiting for the pods to mature. Thinking that planting these seeds ASAP might make sense, as they are essentially planted when the pods open and the seeds fly out to ride on the breezes. Has anyone planted the asclepias seeds as soon as they matured? What kind of luck have you had? Did you direct plant or plant in pots?
This post was edited by butterflymomok on Sat, Jun 29, 13 at 20:40
Some of the Asclepias seed do not need any stratification and will germinate rather quickly. If I get fresh seed from any species early in the season (before 9/1) I immediately sow them. Sometimes they will start germinating within two weeks or wait until next spring. I would love to get some seed from the red-edged leaf one if you have extras.Also would like to get some of the regular viridis to have it from two different sources.
Mark - I dropped an envelope of A. viridis seeds for you into the mail on Saturday. I collected them this month (June 2013).
Sandy - I did not know that A. variegata would re-bloom sometimes later in the season. Here's hoping that mine will do so!
Hi Folks,
I've written Gardenweb requesting that they add a special MILKWEED forum for those of us who are trying to establish milkweed gardens/plots to help with the declining Monarch populations. If you are so inclined please drop them a note supporting this idea and maybe we will have our own forum in which to communicate.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
I put in a request for a milkweed forum. Hope it happens. Thanks for your reply. I'll be spreading some of the viridis seeds as soon as they are collected, and save some for stratifying and potting next spring. When I get the seed from the deeper-colored viridis, I'll send you an email and get your address. There is lots of viridis in the fields around the acreage, so I'll be collecting lots of seeds. Generally the land is mowed before the pods are mature, but some escaped. Earlier this past week, they were still green, but getting close.
I have A. variegata pods. In a quick check of my plants, I counted about 75. Maybe some will reach maturity and I can send out some seeds this Fall. These are on 2 stalks from 1 root...
Great News ctnchpr,
Just getting the pods set is a BIG milestone. I have found that if you cover them in fine netting it should help to keep the borers away.Please put me down for some seed when it is available. I'll be glad to help you with distribution if you need it. Please keep us updated on their progress and it's nice to see you still tuned in to this forum. I hope you noticed in this thread that we are working on getting our own Milkweed Forum established and if you wouldn't mind letting them know you are interested in one I would appreciate it.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
This post was edited by wildflowerman_2000 on Fri, Jul 12, 13 at 20:54
So nice to hear from you, ctnchpr. I hope you are enjoying a wonderful summer.
Good gracious, miss mollie, what a fantastic sight. Just look at those pods! And the pods and the A variegata plants look so healthy. Keeping my fingers crossed they all mature (can't even begin to guess at the number of seeds contained in that many pods).
Please add my name to the seed list and let me know if I can help in any way. I remember in 2011, someone cleaned and packaged the seed you were so kind to share with us. So, please ask for help if wanted or needed.
Oh, wow, what a treasure! I would like to be put on the list for some seeds. Thanks for sharing your bounty, ctnchpr.
Hi there, ctnchpr. Those are some nice looking pods you've got there; and 75 of them? Wow, that's impressive! If you get a big batch of seeds, I'd love some, as well.
By the way, my little Lobelia cardinalis seedlings are coming right along.
Hi ctnchpr,
It's been a couple of weeks since you posted the good news about having so many pods developing on your Asclepias variegata. I'm curious as to how many are still there and growing and at what stage. I hope that they are ALL still there!! A progress report would be much appreciated by everyone who watches this thread.
As I stated before if you need any help with distributing the seed let me know.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
This post was edited by wildflowerman_2000 on Sun, Jul 28, 13 at 10:32
Hi wildflowerman,
The Milkweed bugs are taking their toll, the count is down to 20. I shake the plants to dislodge the bugs, about half drop to the ground, where they're crushed, the rest fly off. I just brush the nymphs off, thinking that most won't find their way back to the stalk. It's an ongoing battle!
Most of the pods have about 100 seeds, the very large ones can have 200. If 4 or 5 make it to maturity, I'll be very happy.
I'm so impressed with everyone's plants! If anyone has any seeds of Asclepias variegata to sell me, please let me know. Thanks.
Hi echinaceamaniac,
Attached is a photo of my 7 pods I have so far this year. Hopefully they will be full of seed but one never knows until they open. Low fertility or weevils can greatly reduce the number of seeds but the pods are clean so far of the bugs.
Hopefully ctnchpr's pods will also have some seed. I don't know how he will distribute them but feel sure if there are some he will share them here on this link.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
Hi ctnchpr,
I received your email but can't respond to you directly as it came from gardenweb and not from you.. Please send me your email address at email@example.com so that we can communicate about distribution of your seed. Thanks,
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
This post was edited by wildflowerman_2000 on Tue, Sep 17, 13 at 9:02
Just wanted to add additional information regarding my Asclepias variegata milkweed.
Toward the end of August, my Asclepias variegata milkweed had declined to the point of just dry stalks. Then new shoots began to grow from the base and now one is even setting a flower bud. I don't know if there's time for it to develop and open but the new leaves all look fresh and healthy, just as they do in early spring. I'm wondering if I'd tried cutting the dying stalks back earlier, if I'd have gotten a second round of growth with more blooms?
No seed pods again this year, although I had two tiny seed pods begin to develop from the open flowers I tried to hand pollinate. The little pods grew to about 1.5 to 2 inches, then slowly withered and died. Maybe next year.
I wondered about your seed pods. It's also interesting to hear about your new growth. I currently have one plant that is still green. Second plant died back. Both plants are in hardware cloth cages. A purple milkweed is also growing in one of the cages--not sure where it came from. And, am also not sure whether it is competing with the variegata for space. The purple mw is growing in the cage where the vareigata died back. The good news is that I still have at least one plant alive, that the gopher has not been able to attack, although he has tunneled completely around all the cages.
I sure enjoyed seeing this little asclepias in the woods this spring. I'd love to grow it too!
Hi Folks,
I received the Asclepias variegata seeds from ctnchpr's and am in the process of cleaning and packaging them. I will post the availability next week on the new MILKWEED FORUM. I will only take request for them from that offer so please don't flood me with request until the notification next week. Thanks.
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
Hi Mark,
Looks like some nice, healthy seed. My thanks to ctnchpr for being so generous with these very special seeds and to you, Mark, for handling the distribution.
I have plans to go to Ft. Benning, Georgia Thursday for grandson's graduation from boot camp. I'll watch for your notice and hope it is posted before I have to leave.
Good luck to all.
Hello Milkweed folks,
I will be posting the availability of the Asclepias variegata seed from ctnchpr later today on the new MILKWEED FORUM. I wanted to give folks on this thread a little advance notice before I post on the other forum. I have 24 packets of 25+ seeds each to distribute. These seed will be offered on a first-come-first-served basis. The viability looks like it will be low-hence the large number of seed in each packet. Please respond to my private email and NOT on this thread. Those that do use this thread will slip to the bottom of the list. My email address is : email@example.com . Please put "Redring Milkweed" in the subject line. Those emails arriving with no subject line will be automatically deleted for security reasons. Happy Sowing!!
Mark (wildflowerman_2000)
I received about 50 seeds of ctnchpr's 2013 stock through wildflowerman in January, in two packets. All seeds in one packet were very small, shriveled and brittle; most in the other looked somewhat more plump. I used cold, damp stratification in a sand medium in the fridge and planted them in a compost, soil, sand mix in early May. Only one seedling appeared, and it produced a plant that is still only about 3 inches tall, and is somewhat chlorotic. Nevertheless, it has survived, and when I planted it out into the yard, I found it had surprisingly well-developed roots. I will cover it with a few inches of light mulch before winter and hope it pulls through.


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MSNBC host Chris Hayes' recent comments about his discomfort with appending the label "hero" to soldiers killed in action has engendered a significant amount of hate-fueled, vociferous invectives from the military establishment and conservative talking heads and bloggers who were deeply irate with and angered by his comments on Up with Chris Hayes.
This is what Hayes said on his show:
Why do I feel so uncomfortable about the word 'hero'? I feel uncomfortable about the word hero because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don't want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that's fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I'm wrong about that.Interestingly enough, Hayes had a panel of commentators who espoused similar viewpoints and agreed with his assessment. John McHorter of NYDailyNews.com buttressed Hayes' statement with this following argument:
No, words take on residences, and that happens to almost any word. And sometimes you need to revise. I would almost rather not say 'hero' and come up with a more neutral term, which, of course, would take on partisan residences as time went by. But that's true of the word 'sacrifice, that's true of the word 'valor,' that's true of the word 'hero.' Instantly you get [makes trumpet sound] in a certain way of looking at things, and it is manipulative. I don't think that's necessarily deliberately. We use language unconsciously. But nevertheless, I share your discomfort with those words, because they are argumentational strategies in themselves often without wanting to be.Daily Beast contributor Michelle Goldberg, who was also on the show, concurred with McHorter and Hayes by saying:
Well, and they're also a little bit empty, because, I mean, there is - there are people who are genuine heroes but that kind of implication is that death is what makes you a hero, you know, as opposed to kind of an affirmative actor or any moral act or, I mean.Undoubtedly, the second the word about Hayes' uncomfortableness got out, the congressionally-chartered Military-industrial complex-backed Veterans of Foreign Wars dispatched Director of Public Affairs a.k.a. spokesman National Commander Richard DeNoyer to denounce Hayes' comments on mainstream media outlets like Fox News and many others, calling on Hayes and MSNBC to make "an immediate and unequivocal apology," in which he declared:
Chris Hayes' recent remarks on MSNBC regarding our fallen service members are reprehensible and disgusting.Furthermore, DeNoyer stated:
His words reflect his obvious disregard for the service and sacrifice of the men and women who have paid the ultimate price while defending our nation. His insipid statement is particularly callous because it comes at a time when our entire nation pauses to reflect and honor the memory of our nations' fallen heroesThe VFW's top spokesman Joe Davis told The Daily Caller on Sunday:
If Mr. Hayes feels uncomfortable, I suggest he enlist, go to war, then come home to what he expects is a grateful nation but encounters the opposite. It's far too easy to cast stones from inexperienceDeNoyer told the press that the "anti-hero" comments made by Hayes on his show are "devastating" for "those grieving loved ones."
He further in part stated:
Such an ignorant and uncaring and blatant disregard for people's deep feelings are indefensible, and that is why the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States demand that Mr. Hayes and MSNBC provides an immediate and unequivocal apology.Unsurprisingly the conservative response to Hayes' remarks was even much harsher than the VFW's. Daniel Halper of the Weekly Standard harshly noted:
Nevertheless, [Hayes] hasn't apologized and seems to stand by what he said.Conservative Twitter-feeded website Twitchy retorted, while noting that a new hashtag #MSNBCheroes has been created, the following:
Leave it to Twitter to teach someone a much-needed lesson. Media accountability, baby! Hayes made the mistake, in a fit of deplorable moral relativism, of saying out loud what the Left thinks and believes. At least admit it, MSNBCTwitchy's staff even commented ad nauseum on this subject here.
Kurt Schlichter of Breitbart.com leveled an ad hominem at Hayes, stating:
I greatly enjoy watching progressives seethe as they are forced, for the sake of appearances, to pretend to support our troops. You know it's killing them.Conservative columnist Ann Coulter took some nasty potshots at Hayes, opining on her Twitter page:
But it's the progressives' own doing – their sickening performance following the Vietnam War, when they figuratively and literally spit on our troops – so disgusted decent Americans of all political stripes that to do anything but treat our troops with the utmost respect is to draw near-universal contempt and scorn from across the mainstream political spectrum.
So, the real problem for Chris Hayes is that he actually said what he thinks. He thinks our soldiers are suckers and fools at best, brutal sociopaths at worst. At a minimum, he feels that honoring those who died for this country might encourage people to see that actually defending our country is a good thing. He's not quite ready to make that leap; after all, most progressives are ambivalent about this whole 'America' concept, if not actively opposed to it.
Chris Hayes 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes' – Marines respond by protecting his right to menstruate.A comment posted by a user named azgal602 to the widely-read conservative Republican-backed website MediaBusters (which has been claiming to be exposing liberal media bias [when, in fact, it's statist media bias])attacks Hayes' remarks with the following:
People who feel this way and verbalize it should be shipped off on the first military transport to the front line. How dare they sit here in their comfortable safety and reap the rewards of what the military men and women sacrifice for us while belittling their ultimate sacrifice. The lowest of the low[.]Wizbang's Warner Todd Houston attacked the liberal TV host himself, vehemently quipping:
This weekend Hayes felt compelled to warn everyone that calling our troops 'heroes' is something that should make us all 'uncomfortable.'That's a lie right there, because Hayes merely stated that, while some troops are heroes (such as coming to the aid of a fellow soldier who has been hit by rapid gunfire, etc.), he actually stated that the labeling of every American soldier who dies in a war makes him "uncomfortable," even though he also stated that he "might be wrong."
Stated Doug Mataconis in his fierce objection to Hayes' attitude towards the term "hero":
I suppose the problem I have with Hayes's comments, and with the comments of those who have been defending him online today, is that the objection to describing those who have died in service to their country as heroes isn't based so much in a concern that it diminishes the true acts of heroism that have occurred, and will continue to occur in wartime as it is in the fear that acknowledging the sacrifices that these men, and women, have made would somehow be a political statement. That strikes me as a deeply myopic, politically-obsessed, view of the world. Disagreeing with the political decision to go to war should never, I would submit, be a reason to either denigrate or ignore the sacrifices that those who served in that war have made, which seems to be the clear implication of what Hayes and his fellow panelists were saying in this segment. [emphasis added]Mataconis continued further:
Individual soldiers are not responsible for the decisions of those who sent them into battle, and it strikes me as incredibly callous to dismiss the sacrifices made by those who died in such endeavors.Pseudo-libertarian (yet proudly neoconservative Republican) blogger Eric Dondero spews his anti-Hayes venom, blasting the MSNBC show host on LibertarianRepublican.net. Here he said:
Honestly, does it get any worse than this? If you hadn't seen it yet, be prepared. It's been making its way around the right-to-sphere since Friday. His words are truly repulsive. Even liberal pundits and blogs are distancing themselves from his blather.Last but not least the conservative Washington Times editorialized the matter, attacking Hayes by stating:
The word "heroes" has been used to describe America's fallen for more than 200 years. It's not "rhetorically proximate" to justifications for war but a traditional mark of gratitude and respect for the sacrifice made by the person who was killed and the family members left behind. It's a way of recognizing that regardless of how a person died, he did so in service to the country. It's not a glorification of war but a solemn acknowledgment of sacrifice.Sadly but not shockingly Hayes backpedaled on his statements - for telling the truth. While his statement from his blog can be found here, here's what he wrote:
On Sunday, in discussing the uses of the word "hero" to describe those members of the armed forces who have given their lives, I don't think I lived up to the standards of rigor, respect and empathy for those affected by the issues we discuss that I've set for myself. I am deeply sorry for that.Shortly after his apology went out, the Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf issued an op-ed on the scandal, noting that Hayes shouldn't be the one apologizing for his statements. Rather, his detractors should be making the apologetic rounds.
As many have rightly pointed out, it's very easy for me, a TV host, to opine about the people who fight our wars, having never dodged a bullet or guarded a post or walked a mile in their boots. Of course, that is true of the overwhelming majority of our nation's citizens as a whole. One of the points made during Sunday's show was just how removed most Americans are from the wars we fight, how small a percentage of our population is asked to shoulder the entire burden and how easy it becomes to never read the names of those who are wounded and fight and die, to not ask questions about the direction of our strategy in Afghanistan, and to assuage our own collective guilt about this disconnect with a pro-forma ritual that we observe briefly before returning to our barbecues.
But in seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war. And for that I am truly sorry.
Friedersdorf partly notes:
If Hayes' critics merely articulated why they didn't share his perspective, even forcefully, public discourse would've operated as it ought to -- one person makes an earnest, comprehensible, intellectually honest argument; other people respond with assents or counterarguments; the best ideas win. Instead, many of Hayes' critics puffed out their chests, emphasized how outraged they were, and proceeded to either elide or mischaracterize much of what Hayes said.He continued in part:
A lot of Hayes' critics have said that, no matter if he's right or wrong on the merits, he shouldn't have been so insensitive as to raise this subject on Memorial Day Weekend, when it might upset people who've lost loved ones and are trying to focus on honoring them as, yes, fallen heroes. Whatever you think of that argument, know this: With no disrespect to Hayes, he spoke on an obscure show that aired early in the morning during a holiday weekend on a liberal cable network. Had his musings been permitted to drift off into the ether, vanishingly few family members of deceased veterans would've heard them; even fewer would've been offended.The reality of the matter comes down to this. The conservatives have declared an open-warfare attack campaign on the First Amendment by engaging in smug name-calling, condescending, and hubristic remarks aimed at Hayes - in the form of ad hominems - rather than opening the dialogue for assents and counterarguments. They will attack anyone - and I mean, anyone - who freely dissents on the view that we must call all American GIs "heroes," whether they are right or wrong.
But thanks to the Schlichters and Hustons of the world, and the Fox News folks who put their segment on the controversy together, a lot of military families were told on Memorial Day weekend that some smug liberal elitist at MSNBC thinks the troops 'are all knuckle dragging, murderous, bigots that just want to shoot someone,' to quote one Hayes critic. There's no getting around it. The people who demagogued and egregiously misrepresented Hayes caused far more upset to military families than his actual remarks, especially in context, ever could.
Yet no one is outraged by their behavior, or calling on them to apologize.
As libertarian writer, blogger, commentator, and ideological thinker Jacob Hornberger called out the conservatives on their hypocrisy on the subject in his op-ed (which is posted on the Future of Freedom Foundation website), in which he pointed out that the Times failed to make it vitally clear as to whether the principles of military heroism in wartime to which the military and conservative establishments hold themselves applies to only Americans or also to soldiers of other countries.
Here he says:
Applying the standard set forth by the Times, would it be appropriate for Germans to use the word 'heroes' to describe Germany's fallen in the many wars in which Germany has been involved, including World War II? Could it be said that describing Nazi soldiers killed in World War II as 'heroes' would not serve to justify World War II but instead serve simply as a mark of gratitude and respect for the sacrifice made by the German soldier who was killed and the family members left behind? Could it be said that this would just be a way to recognize that regardless of how the Nazi soldier died, he did so in service to his country? Could it be said that describing the Nazi soldier as a hero would not be a glorification of war but rather a solemn acknowledgement of sacrifice?
At one point, Hornberger correctly notes:
In other words, would the Times apply its principles regarding war, soldiers, heroism, and patriotism only to the United States or universally?
Or do they apply only to the winners? Do they apply, for example, to the Soviet Union, one of the winners of World War II, which was governed by a brutal communist regime during the war and for decades afterward, a regime that oppressed Jews and others and kept Eastern Europe under its iron boot for decades after the end of the war. Were communist soldiers opposing Nazi soldiers heroes for serving their government during time of war? Were they heroes for their willingness to die to ensure that their country remained under communist rule rather than Nazi rule?
Indeed, how would the Times apply its principles to the Vietnam War, a war that the United States lost? Surely, it would say that American soldiers who served in Vietnam or who died there were heroes, except perhaps for the ones who committed war crimes. Would it say the same about North Vietnamese communist soldiers or about the Viet Cong?
Moreover, Hornberger quips:
It seems to me that the reason that Nazi soldiers have never been honored as heroes is because the world has long held Germany to a different standard than the one that the Washington Times applies to the United States. Both German soldiers and the German citizenry should have made a critical examination of what their government was doing and realized that their government was in the wrong. On reaching that determination, it was the duty of the individual soldier to refuse to participate in the military, and it was the duty of the citizen to oppose his government, even in time of war.Hornberger precisely notes the problems made by the conservative American pundit establishment while employing the German citizen and Nazi soldier analogy to buttress it. However, this is where he hasn't made this point, which is that conservatives have nothing but solid blood lust on their minds, especially after the 9/11 attacks. They have endorsed and codified into law the idea that we Americans collectively must embrace our long-term presences in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya to mean that the State's own warriors - American GIs - will and must be sacrificed on the altars of blind patriotism, fealty, obedience, and heroism, even if these soldiers have committed crimes such as rapes and murders in those countries and in past wars (especially during the first two World Wars). This is done all in the name of eliminating the terrorist threat, which can only be attained and accomplished via the global War on Terror.
Obviously, the Nazi government didn't take that position. Its position was that it is the solemn duty of the citizen to come to the support of his government in time of crisis or war. The Hitler regime viewed the citizen who joined the Nazi armed forces as a hero for his willingness to fight and die for his country. The German people who supported the troops and the rest of the government were looked upon as patriots.
Isn't that the same standard adhered to by many Americans with respect to America's wars, soldiers, and citizenry?
When Private First Class (Pcf) Bradley Manning gave Julian Assange the video footage of the July 12, 2007 "Collateral Murder" video he needed via his WikiLeaks site to release the horrific footage of unarmed news journalists (who were initially pegged by the U.S. military as armed militants) being gunned down by an Army AH-64 Apache helicopter, was he branded "a hero"? No, he was branded the opposite - a traitor by conservatives and the military establishment. Even James Kirchick, the conservative writer and contributing editor for the New Republic, even believes Manning to be "no gay hero."
On the same show in he made his statements, Chris Hayes did state this talking point:
The argument on the other side of that is, we don't have a draft. This is voluntary. This is someone making a decision to take on a certain risk of that. And they're taking it on because they're bound to all of us through this social contract, through this democratic process of self-governance in which we decide collectively that we're going to go to war. And how we're going to go to war, and why we're going to go to war. And they also give up their own agency in a certain way that, for a liberal caricature like myself, seems very difficult to comprehend -- submitting so totally to what the electorate or people in power are going to decide about how to use your body, but they do that all of full volition. And if the word hero is not right, there's something about it that's noble, right?
Hayes is correct. Military service is now voluntary (unlike the service which was mandatory at the height of the Vietnam War), and any average Joe (or Jane) can choose to join it if he (or she) wishes. That individual takes a big risk for joining the military, knowing the potential dangers that come with the uniform.
Having said that, no one - or no persons - twisted the arms of the current rank-and-file troops to sign up for the military. Those men and women who chose that profession as a way to pay for college or to establish a career within that institution made their beds, and they must lie in them. They made their choices; now, they must take personal responsibility for those choices and live with them, whether they like it or not.
The word "hero" is casually thrown around like it has some paramount meaning in this militarized world in which we live. Whenever I think of the word "hero" or "heroine," I think of someone who risks his or her life to save the life of another person and rescues them from danger, even if it's done at his or her own risk. The word has now come to denote any soldier who is either killed or fatally maimed (by a device such as an IED, for instance) on the battlefield. That is a spurious use of the term, even if the glorification of the war and the act of a soldier dying "for the freedom of Americans" (especially when the term is heavily loaded and is deemed at best legitimate) seems like a noble, patriotic sacrifice for the country.
If conservatives ardently objected to Hayes' contentious statement, all they had to do was to state where he was wrong if they believe he is not right. Nope, all they did was resorting to name-calling, assassinating his character, and smearing him in the name of preserving the modern right wing-fueled military establishment.
If conservatives care about the troops as much as they say they do, then perhaps they can explain to anyone who isn't at the ripe young age of five years old as to why the military-industrial complex remunerates those fallen soldiers meager wages (which haven't been increased in years) and provides crummy Veterans Affairs-backed TriCare and housing that they have to pay for themselves (despite the lie stating the opposite), not to mention invalidating their right to vote (when they have to work long hours that prevent them from showing up at the election polls every four years)? Can someone with a backbone please justify that logic for me?
Conservatives who attack Hayes' First Amendment-protected rights will play the patriot card to their advantage as long as it benefits them and their corporate statist allies who want to keep the flow of the profits of the war profiteering coming. This isn't done to protect the troops; it's done to protect the status quo at the expense of the troops and the American taxpayers who will have to keep funding these military boondoggles.
And remember this much - the conservatives are merely biblically and patriotically correct, which, like the Left's own brand of political correctness, is used to protect popular speech from unpopular speech that is by default protected by the First Amendment (and not the other way around). It is a political weapon to protect the right's brand of free speech that must never be allowed to dissent and/or deviated from, because it is the State's own correct ideology. The individual doesn't matter in their eyes; only the massive State does, even though they hide behind limited statism (a.k.a. "small government") to justify its own existence.
Hayes' subsequent unnecessary apology serves as a reminder that, if you're going to state what you believe, then you must stand by your principles, whether you're right or wrong and regardless of how others feel about the situation. His principles have to mean something; otherwise, what's the point of stating them if they contain no meaning and no truth? But Hayes took the cowardly way out and refused to stand his ground. It didn't even please the conservatives anyway, because they were too busy hating him for not only making the statements but also for daring to make them in the first place.
The statists in the two major party camps are cheerleading this war and engaging in political masturbation, but one of them is rhapsodizing censorship. That's not a surprise, because the conservative war on free speech and dissent from the State has been unleashed upon us.
This time they're using the military as an excuse to justify it. Here comes the right wing open-warfare attack campaign on freedom of speech! The war has begun.


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Flu shots: Roll sleeves up... if you're elderly
Some people beg for the flu shot each October. Others are petrified of getting one. "Last time I got a flu shot, I was sick as a dog. I almost died!" they say. (I always wondered why we say "sick as a dog" because my dogs have always been healthy.)
I try to convince my patients who think the flu vaccine made them sick that it wasn't the shot that did it. When do we give the flu shot? During cold and flu season! So people get the flu shot and then get a bad cold. Who gets blamed– Mother Nature or the flu shot?
I've played a game with a few patients. To people who need the shot (65 or older, diabetics, HIV+, folks with cardiovascular disease, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, kidney failure, cancer) and refuse it, I say, "Let's pretend we gave you the flu shot today. Tell me if you get sick this week."
Usually I get a wry smile: "Sure, doc. Like I'll get sick." Then I have had a high percentage of patients calling me back to say, "Doc, I'm sick as a dog. You're right. It's the cold and flu season. Can I have the flu shot now?"
It's not people's fault if they associate a flu shot with getting sick. It's called classical conditioning: People associate one thing with another because the two occur at the same time.
The danger is that misinformation can lead to serious illness or even death. In the U.S., about 50,000 people every year die and hundreds of thousands are hospitalized. The flu shot doesn't prevent the flu, but it sure takes the sting out of it.
Some people just don't want the flu shot because they've never had the flu. I've talked to patients in their 80s who claim to have avoided every past flu epidemic. When I ask them if there was a time they were bed-ridden with high fevers and cough, it's surprising to hear how many of them say, "Well, come to think of it, there was that time I was on my back for a week."
In a world of drama queens and hypochondriacs, I find it amazing how easily some people erase memories of illness.
This year there's a severe shortage of the flu vaccine. Half of the world supply "flu" away. So those who don't need the flu shot are likely to be turned away. There are two medications that actually stop the flu virus from replicating, but last year during the flu outbreak, there was a shortage of those pills as well. One of our local pharmacies only had enough flu pills for two patients each day. That's like living in Russia.
There's a flu mist that you can inhale. However, the majority of people who need a flu shot can't take the flu mist because only people older than five or younger than 55 can use it– no HIV, diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, cancer, asthma, etc.
Why make a mist that nobody can take? It's like holding food in front of hungry people, but the food can be eaten only by healthy active people. The flu mist was such a bust last year that my office is not even going to carry it this year. All it did last year was take up space in our freezer.
It's already an interesting year for the flu shot. Patients with rolled up sleeves (like those pictures of Kerry and Bush campaigning) will be lining up for their dose. Unfortunately, some sleeves will have to roll down– down the arms of those who aren't likely to die from catching the flu.
Got a question? Dr. Hook wants to hear from you!
NEW COLUMN: For more on Dr. Hong, see Editor's Note on page 5.


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In the fifth installment of Reunion Blues' Vintage Guitars Road Show, the guys hit up Guitar Showcase at Large in San Jose, California.
In this segment:
- We get to check out an early-50s Gibson ES-175 Electric Archtop which features the original specs, including a single P90 pickup in the neck position. Later models featured a humbucking pickup.
- The next guitar was an original Epiphone Model 4 roundhole acoustic archtop. As described in the video, this is one of the oldest instruments to be featured in Vintage Guitar Show. Check out how they determine its authenticity..ONLY PROFESSIONALS!!
- Another guitar featured is a relatively new model in the vintage market, an original Kramer guitar. But what makes this guitar special is the one-off paint job done by San Francisco artist, Mark Erickson.


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- Southampton Road Garage, Fordingbridge, Hampshire, SP6 1AP
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Are All US Phone Calls Being Recorded?
Former FBI agent suggests the possibility
The real capabilities and behavior of the US surveillance state are almost entirely unknown to the American public because, like most things of significance done by the US government, it operates behind an impenetrable wall of secrecy. But a seemingly spontaneous admission this week by a former FBI counterterrorism agent provides a rather startling acknowledgment of just how vast and invasive these surveillance activities are.
Over the past couple days, cable news tabloid shows such as CNN's Out Front with Erin Burnett have been excitingly focused on the possible involvement in the Boston Marathon attack of Katherine Russell, the 24-year-old American widow of the deceased suspect, Tamerlan Tsarnaev. As part of their relentless stream of leaks uncritically disseminated by our Adversarial Press Corps, anonymous government officials are claiming that they are now focused on telephone calls between Russell and Tsarnaev that took place both before and after the attack to determine if she had prior knowledge of the plot or participated in any way.
On Wednesday night, Burnett interviewed Tim Clemente, a former FBI counterterrorism agent, about whether the FBI would be able to discover the contents of past telephone conversations between the two. He quite clearly insisted that they could.


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The ChromeVox screen reader is an extension to Chrome that brings the speed, versatility, and security of Chrome to visually impaired users.
Its simple yet powerful navigation is easy to learn and quickly gets new users up to speed browsing web sites and web-based applications eyes-free. Check out the documentation at http://code.google.com/p/google-axs-chrome/ for the user guide, tutorial, keyboard shortcut and developer reference guides.
Note: ChromeVox is still in development and currently doesn't work in conjunction with desktop screen readers. In order to best use ChromeVox on your computer, you will need to disable your desktop screen reader when using ChromeVox.
ChromeVox is just one of the Google Accessibility extensions. Be sure to check out ChromeVis, ChromeShades, and ChromeLite as well!


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Brewers clip Cards again in extra innings
ST. LOUIS (AP) — Lyle Overbay singled in Khris Davis with the tiebreaking run and the Milwaukee Brewers beat the St. Louis Cardinals in extra innings for the second straight night, winning 5-4 in 11 innings Tuesday.
Davis hit a go-ahead triple to help the Brewers win 5-3 in 12 innings Monday night and started the winning rally this time with a leadoff double against Kevin Siegrist (0-1). Milwaukee is a major league-best 20-7, two more victories than the previous franchise best for the opening month, and 11-1 on the road.
The Brewers, missing four starters, managed just enough offense to beat the Cardinals again.
Carlos Gomez homered and pitcher Kyle Lohse had a two-run single for the Brewers, who have won five of six. Tyler Thornburg (3-0) struck out four in two scoreless innings and Francisco Rodriguez finished for his 13th save in 13 chances.


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With a winter storm barreling down on North Texas, officials canceled two major events scheduled for this weekend: The MetroPCS Dallas Marathon and the Children's Medical Center holiday parade.
After meeting with the City of Dallas, Dallas Police Department and Office of Special Events, marathon officials decided Friday to cancel the event.
"Safety of our participants, as well as our volunteers and spectators, is our primary concern on MetroPCS Dallas Marathon race weekend," according to a news release Friday afternoon. "We regret that the race will not go on as planned, but are confident this decision is in the best interest of our runners, volunteers, spectators and the general public."
Children's Medical Center, which was going to host its holiday parade on Saturday, canceled the annual event on Thursday. It's the first time the parade has been canceled in 26 years.
Runners Were Prepared for Cold Conditions
Before the marathon was canceled, runners were buying layers of clothing to wear in the race, including hats and gloves, according to David Douglas, a manager at RunOn! Dallas, a retail running store.
"We haven't really been able to acclimate that much to cold weather yet. It's always nice when you have a chance to do some runs in some cold, but we really haven't had that yet," Douglas said.
Douglas had competed in the Dallas marathon 14 times and planned to run again Sunday -- using a trash bag to stay warm.
"It's one of the greatest things that you can put over you. Keep your body warm," Douglas said.
Stacy Yervasi, who ran in this year's Boston Marathon and finished 30 minutes before the deadly bombings, also wanted to run regardless of the weather.
"I feel very strongly about running my hometown race coming off of Boston," Yervasi said.
Now, she won't get the chance.


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You are currently using mechanical flowmeters to measure the polymer output in your resin plant. In addition to the challenge of controlling the viscosity of the resin in your stirring vessel, you also have to perform regular maintenance on your device. Frequent filter cleaning is needed to prevent a clogged mechanical device shutting down your process. We can help with our best-in-class alternative Coriolis Promass 83l flowmeter, which requires less maintenance and enhances process safety.
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A team of scientists at Cornell University in the US has demonstrated a way to bend light in such a way that it effectively hides an event from happening – what they call a "spatio-temporal cloaking" scheme.
The team, which is funded by DARPA, has built on work by Imperial College London, which showed that it was theoretically possible to split light and hide actions in the ensuing invisible area.
In a paper published in Nature, the Cornell team demonstrated the principle for the first time – albeit for only 40 trillionths of a second.
"This approach is based on accelerating the front part of a probe light beam and slowing down its rear part to create a well controlled temporal gap – inside which an event occurs – such that the probe beam is not modified in any way by the event," the team writes. "The probe beam is then restored to its original form by the reverse manipulation of the dispersion. These results are a significant step towards the development of full spatio-temporal cloaking."
Light bending opens time hole
If the period of time during which the effect can be achieved is extended, the system may provide a new way for computer networks to be monitored and attacked. The team estimates the effect could be stretched to a single second, long enough to allow code injection, most effectively in a quantum-computing system. One catch: the machinery needed to accomplish this feat using their current scheme would have to be 18,600 miles long.
This may well be the case, but the team has taken barely a year after the original 2010 discovery of the phenomenon to come up with a functioning device – much faster than the originators expected. Given the steady progress that technology has made in advancing efficiencies of existing techniques, the time-cloaking device could be in operation a lot sooner than we think. ®


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I wrote this last night
Seems that writing here at this forum is helping allot...
I was alone from the beginning. Their was never anyone to protect me or back me up. No one. Just a fantasy bond. So many times people took advantage of me. So many times. If their is a Hell. Their will be many people in it from this time period...The people that took advantage of me. I do see them as extremely sick.
I had a childhood that I felt safe in for a few years. From about 3 1/2 to 9 or 10. It didn't last all that long. And it was slowly decompensating every year, until by the age of 10 I had lost about 65% of my faith in anything and knew things were going to get worse . I hoped the good part of my childhood would last for ever. I was on a nice street in a small town with a grade school nearby. My best friend lived down the block. I had other friends as well. They lived all over the town.
I want to say that it feels really good to tell my story. To tell what it was like and what happened.
Back to story:
One of my alters is this person. This original self. Or the Host is an alter that the child is the original me. Im not sure. I think the child is the original me. It hasn't been that long that I was diagnosed with DID. A few years. And I have not been mentally stable enough to even look at it, or remember anything.. That is slowly changing.
I began to wake up and see a sharper image of this time zone.
One of the problems is loss: When I wake up the child. The child wants to run outside the house and go play in the leaves, go visit the next door neighbor. Or get on my bike in the backyard and go ride. Or go down to lances house.
The problem: This was 40 years ago. And I am trapped their. This child in me looks at me with helplessness wondering how to get out. The world never changes in his sphere. Its always me around 7 or 8 or 9 years old. I can never get out. The whole world ended for me at that age. I was no more in a sense. And a new personality had to take over. The old one was murdered and buried.
The me that is or was present after this child died, had his handful dealing with the thrust of the present traumas at the time. Their was no time to look at what happened to this original personality.
It is impossible for anyone to stay alive from what I went through. Im not happy about that. I was dealt a set of cards that no one should have been dealt with. I did nothing to anyone. I was thrown all the way in until I was insane. I wanted to grow up like every one else. Instead I was growing toward death. I did not grow at all. I was shell shocked and multiple. That was all. A head and heart full of alters And then Dissociative disorder so bad I was witnessed by others to believe I was Schizophrenic/Pathological. I always say that I was Schyzo in one form or another because of the severity of the situation. The severity of the condition. I ended up being able to function about as well as a Schizophrenic with no meds. So whats the difference. I wasn't home either. I could not tell the difference between what was in my head and what was reality.
Those involved haven't stopped causing trouble if Im around them. They still try to take advantage of me at every opportunity. Just the Criminal nature. I would get away from them, yet the child from my childhood still begets as if everything and everyone is safe when their not.
Opening up this child opens up the memories of happiness I had. Opening up this child opens up the monsters that destroyed this child . Its always a 2 edge sword. Many times this child woke up, only to go back to sleep when the surroundings outside of myself were not the same as when young. And the world was a much different place. A brutal grey business place with no forgiveness. The child in me, in shock, would go back to sleep. No one ever cared about me. Even enough to ask me what was wrong with me. Nothing.. The coffin seemed to be my only friend. The shadow man. He Doeth commeth. He callith to me to surrender and join him on the river styx. To cross to the other side , pay the toll man. And join the dead.
I am one of the few that was found. One of the few that did the work, or was aloud to find the water springs to rejuvenate. If I thus jumped in and let the waters do their job. The waters of God that runneth over.
I don't know How I feel about it. Hatred for what happened to me. Horror and outrage from the steep climb to come out of it. Grateful to come through and start to look at things from the other side. The safer side of the mountain. not cured. Just better. Any significant growth away from the condition is a good day//
So many me' s. All fragmented parts . All broken and distorted. Yet Im in a safe zone to look at the other me's and work with them.
The goal is to wake up/
lately ive been seeing memories that I have never seen before. I think I will write a separate blog on that.
I am better then I used to be. ITs a bloody miracle. Really. Is worth more then all the bank accounts of Bill Gates trust fund... To wake up. Lots of people helping. So many years alone and destitute, walking around like a coffin. In pain..!! Tormented in Pain. Tormented in seclusion of insanity.
I remember Christmas at my Best friends house as a kid. I feel it. And am willing , and getting better at seeing it, and feeling it, and embracing it.. Because of this. It is not lost. It can happen again. To be real, to be here and now, and less afraid. To recreate or trust God to recreate a decent life again. Any life. Any life is better then where I came from.


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Henry Bowers, a rapper born in Sweden, cuts an intimidating figure. Dreadlocks stream from beneath his black beanie, merging into the gargantuan beard he wears. He looks like a modern-day viking, teeth bared as he snarls an answering rhyme to his opponent.
This is a rap battle.
There are no chairs—the spectators stand up close and personal, encircling the combatants. It's a gladiatorial match, executed with words and prose rather than swords and nets. An approving chorus swells from the crowd. Bowers takes a step back; it's his opponent's turn to retaliate.
They trade insults that need to be both harsh and clever. They fire boasts and taunts, goading and pushing at each other. It's like a scene out of a hip-hop music video, a vignette cut from a dance movie, a duel far removed from garden-variety geekdom. But then Bowers snaps:
"You're just a disgusting orc. You stand no chance against Gandalf!"
This is nerdcore.
According to Wikipedia, nerdcore is "a sub-genre of hip hop music characterized by themes and subject matter considered to be of general interest to nerds."
It exists at the intersection between heavy gold chains and Super Nintendo consoles. Instead of waxing lyrical about fast cars and dangerous lifestyles, nerdcore musicians expound on things like Super Mario Bros., programming languages, and science advocacy. It's Tupac with typewriters; Lil' Wayne with Lego and light sabers. Depending on who you ask, nerdcore is either an exciting new medium or a gimmicky addition to the world's amalgamation of music genres.
But in its own way, nerdcore is a statement—a defiant anthem against societal norms.
The birth of a genre
With a little under 300,000 subscribers and almost 80 million channel views, nerdcore artist Hiimrawn is something of a YouTube celebrity. He is arguably best known for his "Gets Played" series, a collection of gaming-related rap videos that incorporate everything from a grizzled mobster reimagining of Super Mario Bros. to a hip-hop-flavored ode to Minecraft.
"I grew up playing the accordion, so—in a way—nerdcore was inevitable," Hiimrawn quips over Skype. "I think a combination of my fantasies [of] being a rapper like Gucci Mane or Biggie Smalls and the harsh reality that I was just a gap-toothed white boy drew my focus to things that I could relate to."
For all his relative fame, however, Hiimrawn expressed relief when asked if he would be okay with having the interview conducted over instant message.
"I'd prefer that, too, since I'm shy," says the man who once dressed up as Sonic the Hedgehog for a music shoot.
Though artists such as the Beastie Boys and Biggie Smalls have long since referenced subjects like science fiction and technology in their music, not until 2000—the year MC Frontalot debuted his song "Nerdcore Hiphop"—did the subgenre get a name. For some people, nerdcore represents an homage to shattered stereotypes, but for others it's simply idle self-expression.
"Nerdcore to me is just about showing people other ways people have fun," Hiimrawn shrugs, before adding glibly, "I love getting into costume and playing pretend. I'm a big kid."
Though they allude to Silent Hill or '80s cartoons in their lyrics, some artists haven't entirely embraced the nerdcore label. Henry Bowers certainly hasn't. "I would definitely say that there are elements of what you call 'nerdcore' in my music," Bowers says. "I love to spice up my lyrics and my battle verses with references to pop-culture; and among these references you'll find a lot of geeky stuff like characters from video games and cartoons and such. But since it's only one of many ingredients I use, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I do full-on nerdcore."
Bowers, a slam poet widely recognized as one of Sweden's best hip-hop acts, was quick to note, however, that he does occasionally revel in writing songs overloaded with nerdy references; Bowers points to a track in a previous album as an example of this: "On the album I'm working on at the moment, I have a track where I only rhyme on names that in some way are related to horror fiction. Starting off with a reference to the video game Silent Hill—spooky s**t, like 'Alessa Gilespie when/all messed up on mescaline, molestin' pedestrians.'"
Next page: Push-back against nerdcore


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No hearing for Man charged with killing wife in NH
CLAREMONT, N.H. (AP) � A man charged with killing his estranged wife in New Hampshire has waived his right to a hearing.
The case of James Robarge now will be presented to a grand jury for a possible indictment.
Robarge, who had been living in Saxtons River, Vt., is charged with second-degree murder in the death of Kelly Robarge. She disappeared from her Charlestown home on June 27, the day she had filed for divorce. Her body was found July 6 in a wooded area in Unity.
The 43-year-old Robarge had been arrested in Vermont on unrelated charges. He did not challenge his transfer to New Hampshire to face the second-degree murder charge.