text:
Ever since it announced its $5.5 million Series A funding round in January 2008, we have covered the news of Follica, the Boston area startup out to bring a scientific approach to developing novel ways of treating and, perhaps one day even curing, baldness and other hair-follicle disorders. These stories, including news of Follica's $11 million Series B round in August 2008, and the hiring of a new CEO last spring, have attracted a tremendous readership, and indeed have drawn several thousand comments, as fans and followers of Follica have become some of our most treasured readers.
But to the dismay of many of those readers, who are anxious for the latest from the startup, we have had nothing to report since the hiring of CEO William Ju last May. Several of you have written to me personally to ask if there is any way I might coax more news out of the company.
I have been trying, I assure you, and this week I had a modicum of success. Though I couldn't get anything on the record from a Follica official, sources at the company confirmed that "we are very excited about the progress and are pushing forward with our programs. Everything is going very well and management, the board, and the Scientific Advisory Board are all extremely encouraged by our scientific progress and results."
I also learned that the company has made some recent hires to expand its staff, though my sources wouldn't name names or specify how many people have been hired or what roles they are filling.
Lots of caveats to consider. First, try not to read too much into this. These are very vague comments, of the type many companies make when they don't have much new to impart, or when they don't want to raise anyone's expectations. And remember, the science Follica is pursuing is, as far as we can tell, still extremely experimental. So even with some solid advances, an effective treatment could well be years off.
Still, I hope this helps to some degree. Rest assured, we will keep trying to learn more and will let you know as soon as we do. And if you learn anything, please don't hesitate to let us know, and we will try to run it down.
By posting a comment, you agree to our terms and conditions.
Those indirect statements from Follica says to me there is not much progress. Therefore they havent been sending more information. I think we can forgett Follica, this is not the company that will solve our problem. Or to be frank, no one will solve the hairloss issue in our lifetime.Cheers
PS. No more "news" from companies with "we are excited about the progress, maybe we will have a commercialised treatment in 5-10 years."
Hey Robert, just wanted to say thanks for all your hard work. It's disappointing that the company doesn't want to open up, but we will really appreciate your efforts thus far.
so is this bad news?
This is neither bad nor good news. The solution is there, it is possible to regrow hair so what remains is that someone or some company, grasps the essentials and makes something out of it. Unfortunately (or fortunately) bright minds don't give a shit about hairloss so very few dedicated scientists go into it. Those that do are all in it for money or for some applied method to a hairloss solution. What we need is some entity that desires the solution more than anything and has the money and mind to do something about it. Money is not a problem.
Bob, you have to help and find out more. I am my own prisoner because of my hair loss. A couple of months ago several women made comments about by receding hair line and ever since that I no longer leave me house. I am on ALL the traditional remedies but nothing has worked for me. I do not even go out to the gym, I have my groceries delivered to my house. I am 35 years old and cry everyday and until that moment when the women commented on my hair I never ever cared. Just something about their comment that hit a nerve so deep that my personality has changed where I am a prisoner of my own house. My life has lost all meaning. I dont understand how they came up with this discovery and here we are four years later and they dont share any news with us about this disease. Have they know idea that their any progress they is hope for life for so many people who suffer from this disease.
Can i ask you guys a question please? what is you advice on HT? do you get good results? also is FUE better or strip?
Sorry for posting this here as we are waiting for updates!
Thanks in advance
How do these comments translate in any way to 'bad news'? Because you wallow in your own self pity? The phrases "very excited", "going very well", and "extremely encouraged" are unambiguous terms. It sounds like Follica is pushing forward and making progress.
because Bob said they say stufflike that when they havent gone anything to tell us
found something interesting. wanted to hear thoughts
u can tell both before pics were taken with the flash on. remember camera can play tricks and they should have more than one paitents pics up to.. worth a try tho!
Thanks for the comment jordan… i was just putting that out there to see some thoughts
Hey John Trablous, just read your comment. Im sorry to read that you are going through so much anxiety and i empathize with you. I am hopeful that we may be pleasantly surprised one day ,sooner than later.
NR, jordan..
Those photos are clearly unscientifically taken. If a company were completely up front and on the level to the merits of their product, wouldn't you think they would produce controlled professional before and after pics? In the ones shown on that site there is clearly different lighting,exposure and placement in both photos(referring to the head shots not the follicles),,we don't even know if that is absolutely the same person. Not saying the company is bogus just suggesting you use a little commonsense approach to this.
You need to remember that this is a biotech company at the end of the day, not a consumer products company. The average biotech drug takes 10-15 years to go from academic benchtop to product. So have patience. Also, no private biotech company likes to talk about what they're doing in detail (that's the benefit of being private as opposed to public). Therefore, neither the time that has elapsed nor the lack of specific commentary is out of the ordinary. Quite the contrary actually.
so what are you saying JR.. we have to wait 10 – 15 years?
We have to keep in mind that secrecy is not somthing follica are doing to be annoying. its essential for this kind of bussiness model. why are people saying thayve failed as theirs no news? of course their is no update. they dont need to find investors, its not that kind of venture. its essentail they remain tight lipped. Just think of what would happen to follica if china got to market first? Histogen even appears to be to some extent piggy backing on what they know about follica already. How many china/ indian/international compaines are there out their trying to outstep follica, it could be hundreds! No news is not bad news, its not good news, its just the way it is!
Very logical response 'mm' I completely agree.
what do you guys think of this? http://hairloss2point0.com/ scam or what??
This appears to be a book compliled from website searches of hairloss forums and other venues. If you want to spend the money on something you can easily do for yourself, go ahead. Keep in mind, the advert promises nothing,nothing and nothing. If that's what you are looking for,you should be happy with your purchase.
Hey! what happened to Thomas Whitfield? Anybody?… Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
so happy you think its a scam? in the advert it says you can grow hair back plus theres a money back gaurntee?
We all wish/hope for some panacea that will solve our hair loss problems.
However, I think it's pretty obvious that when one comes to light, no shadows will remain. In other words; if there was a cure. Everyone would know about it.
The individual referenced in the webpage claims no degree, title or even any level of expertise. He claims to be an independent researcher. Well, so am I. If you've ever typed something into Google, or asked you doctor a question, congratulations! You are an independent researcher.
On a sidebar: wasn't histogen (or somebody)supposed to come out with 6 months results info at the end of Jan?
billy i have to agree with happy1 on this one. looks like a scam, well written and aimed at us! hang in there mate. its coming and its in our generation so we are still lucky in that sence!
Happy 1 thats what i thought. in the article about histogen it did mention that!?
don't fall for the old "money back.." routine. Hang in there , something will happen and when it DOES happen you'll certainly know it. The media that we have wont allow you NOT to know about it.
FYI – This probably doesn't mean anything as far as how Phase I clinical trials are going but it seems to be a plus. See Trichoscience's website for more details but a Dr. Erich Mohr has been appointed Chairman of TrichoScience: In announcing the appointment, former TrichoScience Chairman, Dr. David McLean, said, "Dr. Mohr's acceptance of the Board Chairmanship of TrichoScience marks an important milestone in the development of our Company. He brings a depth of invaluable experience that will help shape and guide the Company as it heads into one of its most important periods of growth and maturity. His knowledge of and direct participation in both clinical trials and the regulatory approvals' process brings a level of hands-on experience and a base of knowledge that will be of significant benefit to the Company at this time."
To the regulars……..Are we moving to this site? If so we should leave notice on the old site.
More good news from trichoscience
Concerning company silence~~~~~
"I think the FDA frowns upon companies that release information prematurely, which may impact the ability of those companies to get the FDA clearance they need from clinical trials. While I don't know about legal restrictions, I doubt any company would want to publish such information early. These companies have a difficult task of balancing what their investors want to know (to keep those that supply the money happy), and the need for good science. Revealing too much before the clinical trials are concluded doesn't seem to be in their best interest, as reading an incomplete study is essentially like watching a movie with the ending cut off. Lots of things could change by the end"~ Dr Rassman
Billy some final thoughts on that latest scam. Just the fact that they have to sell themselves proves they SUCK. They are preying on vulneribility to belive the bull shit. Wether its FDA approved or not, everything out there thus far does very little to help and only donates money to some greedy slob selling lies. If the real thing ever shows up we will be swept up in a stampede of bald dudes looking to regain their youthful appearance with a legit "cure".
well said Met'
i understand that about the FDA but Follica said in black and white themselves that the beauty of thier product is that it wouldnt need FDA aaproval? correct me if im wrong?
Hmmm. Jordan I never heard that Follica wouldn't need FDA approval. In fact I was quite sure that they would. In their spot on the Today show with Matt Lauer 2 years ago the NBC medical correspondent figured FDA approval into her estimate for going to market. However, I have no proof directly from Follica. Would be nice if they didnt need FDA, that's for sure.
Isn't it of them using things that were FDA approved already but HOW they were using those items was not yet FDA approved? And since they are already approved then they should be on a faster track to be approved in this new fashion? Hope you understand that. I dont know its been a while but I thought I read that.
either way guys were still a long time away from seein a product so just dont count on it to much!
Quick question. What is the best thing to wash our hair with? I know chemicals can be bad so what about soap or something?
That's a little off topic jordan. However, the consensus across the board seems to be Nizoral 2% or any thing with Ketoconazole as an active ingredient. It is a known antiandrogen. Now…back to Follica.
Above it says follica have made recent hires. They most probs are moving foward but they obviously dont want to talk about it. Every company wants to make it to market first. I think we will have a better idea by the end on the year on Follica, Histogen and Tricho sceince.
OK guys, Look,I think they are making progress and we can expect something real pretty soon. You know, I am reading this book of Dan Brown where they say that the human think, the human wibes energy casn influence the things, so whenn I see all the human energy spent out down here, I think we should all focus our energy, all together, hold on good vibes, so that Trichosceinces gives us the solution this month…Come on all with me, give a try ;-)) Maybe it works!
greg they are aiming to complete stage 1 this year… as much as we want to we wont hear anything this month sadly
ah man…
I'm still a young guy (22) and notice my hairs receding. Honestly, I hope Follica has some updates in the near future… just SOME confirmation "Yes. It works on humans."
is that soo much to ask for? ahaha
I'm absolutely no expert, but I think I still have 4-5 years until I'm considered "bald"
so here's to hoping they have success by then :D
Jordan where did you read that they are completing stage 1 this year? I was hoping they were further along then that but if thats the case then it is what it is.
Metsie i emailed them last month and i said they have talked about every angle barr timelines. They said they are too early in that stage for timelines however their goal is to complete stage 1 this year.
I do honestly beleive that we will see a treatment be we are going to have to wait at least 3 – 5 years.
In the meantime propecia and miniox is what we have to use! At least we wont have to use it for ever!
Just wanted to know… Im thinking about buying Nizoral 2%, but is there initial shedding of hair before I see any results? If anyone knows, it would be greatly appreciated.
me personally, i found every time i use this shampoo it makes me hair loss worse. try using gree tea
If everything goes well and if Follica finish Phase I this year, I guess it will take 2 years for them finishing phase II and another 2 years for Phase III. So maybe we will have a product out 2015. Thats a realistic timeline. Before 2015 we should not expect a solution. I dont think Histogen will help solve our problem. And Trichosceince, just look at their website, they are not to be trusted.
i disagree. Trichoscience looks promising. Just loook at the medical team behind them. I think you are right that we wont see nothing till 2015!
In addition to Follica, Histogen and Trichoscience, let's not forget about Aderans. Also, ProStraken out of Scotland is stabilizing RU58841.
Herzog what is RU58841? is it out now? or is it something that will be out in another 5 years?
It's a topical antiandrogen about 20 times more effective than propecia. Its method of delivery is not systemic, so it only effects the hair follicles. This means no sexual side effects like propecia has. All in theory of course. It was developed by French chemist in the late 90's.
Honestly… Out of any "treatment research" I've found, Follica seems to be THE MOST credible.
They have scientifically proven they can regenerate thick, full, hair… on mice.
Their theory and discoveries seem to be going in the right direction as well.
Will it work on Humans? Probably… Human and Mice aren't that different, that's why we use Mice for experiments relate to HUmans
so are people using it? where can i get hold of this stuff?
can one expect regrowth from this? is anyone using it?
I remember some people on Hairsite who were trying to get RU done by chemists. I think it was a scam in the end, but I also remember reading that it was somewhat dangerous, because some of it was absorbed systemically.
billy, how old are you and what is th edegree of your hairloss? If you're still a young bloke then I suggest you go on a paleo diet, so as to lower your insulin levels. Insulin is linked to premature hair loss. I know that's probably what caused mine.
Just 5 years to go guys!
tk im 24. my hair as thinned out at the temples and i have a real tuff middle patch. im using propecia, miniox and iv just started to take l-lynise tables 1000mg as i read it is good on hairsite.
what is a paleo diet? please explain? thanks
Your hair loss really doesn't seem so bad. Don't make it into an obsession or you'll lose the best years of your life.
A Paleo diet is simply avoiding any type of grain, or dairies. Just eat lean meat, fish, eggs, poultry, nuts, fruits and lots of vegetables. It keeps insulin levels low, hence should slow your loss.
Adding magnesium and vitamin D supplements could help you as well.
Don't waste your youth over this. Stay on the regimen and live your life.
tk. its bad but at the same times its not bad. thanks for your advice. iv been coming on these sites and looking in the mirror every day which is not a good thing!
i just hope in the near future we can see a better treatment or even a cure so we can focus on other things!
It's more about the loss than the hair. If you hair was stable, it wouldn't be such an issue. It's the loss of control, the slow march towards death that can rob you of your energy, and destroy your youth.
Being obsessed with your hair is normal, I would say. Just make sure you're doing everything in your power to slow down the loss, and then keep your mind off it.
The good thing for you is that you might have a real cure in your thirties. We should have something in 10-15 years if things go well. I'm certainly not counting on anything sooner than that, truth be told. Dreaming can make you feel good, but focusing on life will lead you farther in the long run.
tk you truley know how it feels. Your right. We must stay positvie. Hopefully we will hear good new from this confrence in June.
for sure I know how it feels. My case was far worse than yours at your age. In my case I'm 100% sure that stress was the reason I satrted going so young.
But hey! Most popular Hollywood actors are wearing hair pieces, so there's always a way to live your life fully no matter what. (Think Ben Affleck, George Clooney, Tom Cruise, Matthew McCaunnehey, and even Johnny Depp.)
Only for the sake of an amusing and frivolous debate~~
1)Ben Affleck- Hairpiece is a good possibility
2)George Clooney- has his own hair
3)Tom Cruise- has all his hair
4)Matt McCaughnehey-has had transplants
5)Johnny Depp-possibly has had fill in FUEs
~~my own observations of course
Instead of talking about the best schampoo or Propecia…
I found the method George C. patented for generating new hair follicles. Here are some short-cuts from the patent. Interesting with the result of minoxidil (Rogaine)…
" To determine the effect of minoxidil on EDIHN recombinant FGF is administered 11 days after incisional wounding, as described in Example 11. Minoxidil administration enhances HF formation, showing that new HF can be generated by (a) disrupting the epidermis; and (b) administering a minoxidil."
"Enhancement of EDIHN by Expression of a .beta.-Catenin Activator
[0226]To determine the effect of administration of .beta.-catenin activators on EDIHN, K14-Wnt7 transgenic mice, which overexpress the .beta.-catenin pathway activator, Wnt7, in the epidermis, were subjected to EDIHN, then HF formation was measured 19 days after wounding. In each of 2 separate experiments, with 4 week old and 3 week old mice, the transgenic mice developed significantly larger numbers of HF compared to control, non-transgenic littermate mice (FIG. 27 A-C)."
It seems that the right wound + some special compound will generate new HF. That, we all ready know. But I dont think you knew that minoxidil + wound would generate new HF.
Jordan I don't believe you spoke to anyone from Follica, it just doesn't make any sense. They have been virtually mute for over a year and have refused to answer any questions, but you just rang up and they told you all you wanted to know, I find that hard to believe.
Also, Shooter I saw this post from you the other day on the other board.
"I was doing some research about clinical trials the other day to dispel a lot of the rumors I had been hearing. As it turns out "research studies", "clinical research", and "human proof of concept studies" can all be used interchangeably for Phase 1 and Phase 2 clinical trials. Once these are done, Phase 3 takes about another year in most cases. Most of us, because we are so concerned, would be perfect candidates for Phase 3 and can have access to these treatments before they ever hit the market"
Now if we were to believe what Jordan said where would it fit in with your information about trials, I'm not certain about what exactly it would mean if they were in phase 1 trials with regards to time lines.
Ryan i never spoke to Follica! I said has anyone spoke to them? I think you are mistaken.
Hey Ryan,
The information I found may or may not apply to Follica. They are really adamant about the fact that they are NOT in trials right now… so I have no clue what to make of their situation. Since the onset of their research they have been taking a very unorthodox approach, so we have no way of knowing how much progress (if any) they are making.
I don't believe anything will come from Follica in the near-term, tbh.
However, what I said does apply to Aderans. I'm not sure if their phase 2 is going well or not, but if it is, phase 3 would follow relatively shortly and that would allow people to actally gain a significant amount of hair. Having said that… it is a LONG shot that phase 2 will work perfectly since phase 2 carries the most risk.
Shooter i thought that follica has started a 15 – 20 patient study of something? Have you heard something we havent?
Billy – I am going from this statement by Cotsarelis himself (dated June 2009).
"Thank you for your interest in my research. Rest assured that we are continuing our work on hair follicle stem cells and hair follicle regeneration in the hopes of better understanding hair growth and developing treatments for hair loss. The Follica website (http://www.follicabio.com/) will have information regarding upcoming clinical trials. We are not performing any clinical trials at this time."
Also, UPenn is conducting a trial right now aimed at PREVENTING hair growth… so… thanks, Follica.
they have NOTHING!
Histogen is our only chance
were all going to die bald!
yeah your right billy. im too thinking there is no hope
Cotsarelis better sing like a bird @ hair2010.org because, at this point, I'm not amused by Follica's tactics.
Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience with this product?
Does anyone have any thoughts, or experience with this product? I'm thinking of trying it out.
Ritchie it sounds like garbage. Sounds like they are borrowing lines from Follica type process and offer you to try it for $53.00. Think about it, why would they have to sell it?????? Dont be a victim.
Didnt mean to sound too sarcastic with the Dont be a victim BS. I just hate to see people waste money on garbage.I'm just amazed how much is wasted each year on products thast just dont work.
Read the follica bio. The qualifications of each of those people suggests they are ready to make some move though I have no idea when. I'm not sure how long 16 mil. will last but they cant live on funding forever.
aderans press release
how many more phases to go with aderans? And what is the projected time of release for the cure?
hey guys any updates on follica or other hair regeneration biotech companies?
So, William, I know you're not at liberty to divulge a lot, but judging by your comments here, is it correct for us to assume Follica has already started doing some kind of actual testing, human or otherwise?
hi, brand new here, and Ive been thinning for a while now so I was looking up for some breakthrough treatments and came along this-
it talks about successfully cloning hair using wound healing powder approved by the FDA.
Since Iam not an avid follower, I wanted to know what people think of this system of treatment.Is it a real breakthrough or something else.
My money's on Aderans and Histogen.
Two and half years have passed since the Jan 01/2010 NBC piece where Follica bragged about their technology. In that time they have-yet to tell us they achieved proof-of-concept on honest-to-goodness human beings let alone start trials. I'm honestly tired defending Cots and Crew. As far as I'm concerned, Follica can suck my c*ck
Correction. since the Jan 01/2008 NBC piece
thanks for the above post. This link looks very promising. Can someone tell me a little more about how long it actually takes a product to be approved by the FDA? I was considering a HTP but I might be able to wait this one out…
I'm going to start circling this article now.
Does anyone know when the new Histogen trials are starting?
I've been vascilating back and forth as to whether Follica is in the game or just twiddling their thumbs. I'm going to try and make the case they have something good, maybe even better than good.
They raised $5.5 million for their proof of concept trial and we know that took place as it was confirmed by company officials. Almost as soon as they confirmed the trials, they went out and raised $11 million in very short order. Why?
For venture capitalists to give another $11 million in such short order might indicate Follica's results were really great and warrented a faster schedule. I think it's also good that around the same time Follica took on a CEO with dermatological experience rather than a start-up CEO like Zohar.
Unfortunately, we're left to read tea leaves because there are no updates coming. I sure hope they announce, success or fairlure, whatever happened.
So are we using both pages for comments now?
DBS I thought Follica would be the first to market when they said they had brought their second round of fund raising forward by a couple of years. To me that was an indication that they were advancing rapidly, but since then I'm not so sure.
I'm only reading and\or posting on this thread starting now. Just makes sense.
Deluxe,,they begin this Fall in Singapore
Until proven otherwise, I think Follica is out of the game. IMO it's really down to Histogen and Aderans. Is anyone else considering postponing a HTP?
Joey, I'm actually thinking the opposite and considering getting a FUE transplant… banking on the hope that either aderans or follica will come through and can be used to enhance the transplant. I just have a hard time seeing either of these treatments as being a 100% fix for NW3 or greater baldness. Of course, i'm speculating, but think that they'll still have problems with hairlines. Which is where a normal transplant could be used. I'm thinking more along the lines that these technologies will be used in conjunction with a transplant rather than a cure in of themselves.
I'm currently a 2-2.5NW but am noticing my hair starting to thin in the mid scalp – before it was just temples. To look at it, you would think i have a good head of hair. But, my hair is eroding rapidly and everday i've got a little less and it's more visible. Figure i'm down to a year or two before it's a major problem. Probably won't see these technologies by that point… which sucks!
DBS, I wouldn't count Follica out by any means. I know many are very frustrated with their silence but remember that Follica is essentially owned by a venture capital group that is experienced and all business. The stakes are high and the culture is stealth. For example, you might compare it to Steve Jobs at Apple if you know how infamous he is for keeping things under wraps. Follica is not run by Cotsarelis. His experience is in research not business. He owns stock and is a scientific advisory board member who consults w/ Follica and I'm sure is very involved on the scientific end as a consultant but his full time job is the head of the Department of Dermatology at U of Penn where he continues to conduct research on all sorts of things. (Penn will get royalties from Follica if they are ultimately successful) Personally, it would be great if Follica could communicate more, but it doesn't really bother me b/c from a purley business perspective, I can understand where they are coming from. I think the frustration for all of us was that the NBC piece lead us to believe that the cure was far closer than it really was. It is very plausible that the NBC piece was little more than a well orchestrated fundraising tool and that it was just much more successful than Histogen's PR efforts. Remember, within 6 months of that piece, they raised $16.5 million. Also, note that whenever anyone is asked about a timeline the answer is always conditioned with "if everything goes perfectly". So by simple math, the answer almost always has to be about 5 years…a year for a proof of concept study, a year for each clinical trial Phase, and then regulatory approval. In Follica's case they weren't factoring in much regulatory approval time. As you know, nothing ever goes perfectly. They are still a player but fortunately for us, there are 3 other great possibilities to get excited about. Has anybody noticed that of the 3 private entities in the game, Trichoscience needed almost no noticable PR to raise funding? The inference can certainly be made that they had some very convincing research to accomplish that.
Good post, ZZ. Another factor which i think may go into explaining Follica's silence is that, if their treatment really is as simple as they've let on i.e. skin disruption in conjunction with an already approved med, then it will be absolutely critical for them to be first to market. Generally, the first company to market with a drug or procedure will take the large majority of the market share and hold it, profiting for long periods of time. They'll recieve the most publicity and will be the first name people think of when they consider hair restoration. There is a lot at stake. A simple technique like this will be easily copied and a smart firm could find a way around their patent and steal market share. So, keeping your IP protected is of the utmost importance.
When Follica releases info about their procedure and it's effectiveness, they need to be in position to license and distribute their product immediately, so as to outpace the competition, which will quickly figure out ways to steal market share. So, my guess is that nothing will be heard from them until they're ready to go, then there will be a blitz of news, science info, advertising, interviews etc.. followed by rapid implementation of the procedure in clinics or however they're planning to handle that aspect.
Based on the hiring they've done, it looks to me like they've got something that works. They have hired people in both Operations and Marketing – which sounds like they positioning themselves to push forward with commercialization.
I think the big question is, what role will the FDA play in this? They're using previously approved medication, and skin disruption (i think they're looking at lasers to accomplish) is nothing new i.e. very safe, so, how much of the approval process will be side stepped? This will be critical for determining how fast they can commercialize a product. My personal view is that they should be able to get through the process very quickly – safety is established, so really they'll only need to demonstrate efficacy. Is it possible that could be done in a single, large trial? I don't know, but that would be nice. Follica is paying out a lot of salaries to the executie team, advisory board, and employees they've brought on board, the clock is ticking, they'll need a revenue stream pretty soon.
I understand the secrecy aspect of Follica as they would not want to give away their technique. The point I was making is the rapidity with which the second round of funding came could suggest the proof of concept was so successful they went right back to their donors for money to conduct a larger trial.
With confidentiality agreements, it's not unreasonable to believe that is happening. It's probably not likely, but to go silent for a year leaves us with nothing to do but read the tea leaves. As I see it, there are three possibilities. They have a big success that is further along, they are in a holding pattern, or they have flopped.
I discount the flop as a possibility. This seems to be the real break through for hair loss. It's much like sowing grass seed in a barron area of the yard. First, you till up the ground (dermabrasion). Second, you sow the seeds (Wnt application). Third you wait for it to grow (new hair).
I also find it hard to believe the NBC story was cooridinated. NBC went to them based on the Nature story, not the other way around.
Until Follica posts a basic statement they achieved proof-of-concept on humans – they're a-holes.
Until they keep that NBC piece on their site without any intent meeting its deadlines – they're a-holes
Until they stop acting like a-holes – they're…. you guessed it… a-holes.
Can anyone answer this:
Out of all the major players in this race (follica, aderans, ect.), have any of them addressed the hairline? Meaning, do any of these techniques seem to point to the fact that a hair transplant would not be necessary to secure the hairline? Are some better than others in that regard? If so, which ones?
We have the triple Z attack here..lol. Great points made guys!! As always Rev, the sardonic wit at work. Lurker , that could be a possible issue in this type of treatment. Not a huge issue i would guess.
Thanks for the great info guys. Any speculation on what phase (a year for a proof of concept study, a year for each clinical trial Phase, and then regulatory approval) follica might be up to?
Joey, I refuse to be optimistic about Follica. For that reason I can only go by what they've given us: pre-clinical stage.
What do you think is the probability of Follica dropping the bomb on us and releasing a commercial cure in the near-term?!
I'm wouldn't be surprised buddy
It would be a neat trick to release a product that works flawlessly on humans without actually testing it on a single human.
Well Deluxe, I go by the postings that have been provided by ZZ especially. "The stakes are high and the culture is stealth. For example, you might compare it to Steve Jobs at Apple if you know how infamous he is for keeping things under wraps" I would NOT be surprised if Follica did unveil some type of treatment sooner rather than later.That is all speculative. What is FACTUAL is that Histogen is getting ready to start trials this Fall in Singapore.They have a treatment that WORKED (HSC) to some extent and they received funding to fly out to Asia for phase 2. No speculation there ! Go with what you know.
I'm posting way too much, but here's a thought. I would like to think Follica is ready to drop a bomb in the form of a treatment in the next few months, but I don't think it will happen. Regardless, just because we know of no trial doesn't mean one hasn't or isn't happening.
I think we know more about Histogen and others because they are trying to use the publicity of their clinical work to bring in the money Follica has gotten without publicity. Considering reputability of Follica's staff, I don't think they're under the pressure some other startups with lesser knowns might feel.
As for what Follica can skip in the trial process, has anyone figured that out? Are they able to bypass phase II because the factors are already in use? If we're being really optimistic and they are in pahse I already, who knows what might happen in the next year.
Companies cannot skip any phase of the clinical trial process. The best case scenario is they expedite phases by combining them or running adaptive trials. That is the best we can hope for, but I can't stress this enough: DON'T HOLD OUT HOPE FOR THESE GUYS!
I agree with Artista that we should go with what we know. Histogen is an honest company with an honest product and clinical trials lined up overseas. Aderans is the largest contender and they are already half way through trials. IMO, they deserve our focus and attention, not folliclowns.
You can't bypass phases; although I guess you could hurry through them if your product worked flawlessly. Follica's been at it for two and a half years without a single human trial in sight. It seems to me that things aren't going as flawlessly for Follica as some might think.
Also, I see allot of folks throwing around the word "stealthmode" like it's going out of style, but it leaves me wondering – how would you recruit trial participants for your product if you don't (or can't) disclose that you're actually recruiting for trials? If we're going to delve into that kōan than we may as well discuss the sound of one hand clapping.
Why don't you think the hairline would be a huge issue?
I'm talking in the bigger scope of things related to this. First of course we need a treatment that will provide us a decent crop of hair. The hairline itself can be cosmetically refined. Its being done now especially in the field of hairline repair.
If they can't produce a perfect hairline after the first pass than: you could always get an additional treatment, get a very minor FUE procedure to reorient your hairline, or just get them to inject you all the way down to your eyebrows/ shave your forehead until you achieve the hairline of your choice. Imagine the possibilities; you could have a different hairline everytime you break out the razor blade :D
My question is why grant the NBC interview ? Why keep it up on your website ? Where did she get that estimated time release from ? The Follica staff seem like very sucessful intellegent professionals whom I'm sure could make alot of money elsewhere.
I just dont see them as a bunch of jerks fooling a very sensitive market. If they failed I belive they would have taken the interview off and admitted failure.
I may be investing too much into that interview but I have never seen something as promising as that on a major network before. Thats the whole reason I try to follow day to day updates and I thank all who have contributed here.
I know Metsie. Talk about the ol "Bait and Switch"
Hey Artista, if you're thinking about a transplant, you might consider doing some research into Dr. Gho. Here's his company website:
If the content on the page is honest, it sounds like you might be able to hop on a plane, get a minimally-invasive transplant and maintain your donor hair.
This would be great if we knew it was reliable.
I don't think follica will ever admit failure…and I don't think they will have to. They know it worked in mice, and it should work on humans. Even if they have failed to date, they will keep trying to figure it out until an actual treatment comes out and they lose the race.
Don't you think they must've made sure that their prcedure worked on humans, before they went ahead and hired all these people onto payroll, i.e. CEO. Just because they didn't tell us or give us any info doesn't mean there is nothing going on.
At this point, if we cant assume or predict what is happening with them, we can try to deduce what is going on by their actions to date.
It seems they would only get more funding if their was some type of success to entice more investment. It is a pretty straight forward process and they have hired a lot of great talent which consists of a balanced number of scientists and business partners.
I believe they are probably just having trouble refining the technique, i.e. hairline.
At this point, I am already thankful for Histogen coming out with something with a lot of potential. If follica happens to come out with something, then GREAT! But I believe that Histogen is really on to something that we know we can get in 2-3 years overseas, which is what I intend on doing if the treatment materializes.
Lets be thankful for what we have RIGHT NOW.
Commonsense says that the Gho procedure would be awfully expensive based on what im seeing and what im NOT seeing at their site. I dont want to critique it just yet. Ill look into it Shooter, thanks.
Im tired of reading about follica, Adreans deserves more attention, if i lives in the US i'd sign up for trails all day long.
There's every reason to be frustrated with Follica. Still, we do know they have done a proof of concept trial. That was confirmed in previous articles by their CEO's.
What we don't know is whether they have conducted a full scale trial. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible for companies to conduct trials without the vast majority knowing. Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I mean honestly, how many people know of Follica? How many people know of Cotsarelis? With confidentiality treatments, maybe, if there are trial, the participant would be booted.
Just something to think about.
How expensive is dr. Gho's transplant?
If he do it already, then the price should be here. And, this pictures makes no difference in my eyes. "Old" transplants are the same density.
Shooter thanks for the link to Ghos website. Can you restore a FULL head of hair with his technique, or is it just an illusion like HTs?
Jordan, I honestly don't know. He claims that almost full donor regrowth occurs. If this is true, then full density is likely possible(albeit expensive). Still, they can only do about 1500 grafts in a day, so it would take awhile.
I want some other doctors to test the technique and verify that regrowth does occur. If so, we have a working solution until a better method comes along. I'm just not sold at this point.
DBS, I would love to believe that Follica have been doing trials in private but with all the information we have available it does look unlikely.
Okay ,, i wrote to Gho asking pertinent questions. Also i found this on Youtube.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=danubVFT-n8
Can anyone translate? I see them using a specialized tool to extract follicles. I still am in the dark as to what it is that makes this so special. Can anyone put it into layman's terms as well? Sorry i just dont have a lot of time as of late..thanks
Ok never mind guys i see the vids provided at HSI. I tried using a little patience this time lol. Hmmm Imagine that,,ME using patience. Any way when i have more time i will watch it all,,it does SEEM interesting. ZZ take a look. I agree with Shooter in that it would be great to see American Docs give it a go as well.
Watup, guys I am from HS. Shooter or ANYONE who thinks they could help me answer a question. I specifically asked Shooter because he seems to know what he's talking about, though anyone here would be appreciated. I was wondering if you guys think (any guess or data) that either Aderans or Histogen might possibly work for eyebrows? It would mean the world to me if you guys gave me your insight. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
Not sure about the eyebrows question, but I just want my thick hairline back
Virgo, the following is from Follica's patent.
"Any of the above kits can optionally include instructions for applying the composition to the head of a subject (e.g., to the scalp, cheek, chin, lower face, or eyebrow),"
So if their treatment becomes available you will have something.
As a separate point to the other posters, I noticed this in their patent as well.
"The invention features a method for generating a hair follicle or stimulating a hair growth on the skin"
Does the above mean they will be able to regenerate our follicles that are already there but in a resting phase? Obviously the generating of new follicles would be for those who have suffered from scarring.
Thank you JS! My problem is not balding like x said but sort of applies to what you where saying about scarring JS. I had something happen to me where I permanently lost a great majority of my eyebrows (it looks horrible). I am not trying to be a a$$ at all but it currently doesn't look good for Follica. Due to this fact what do you think about Aderans or Histogen, is there any chance they will work for this? I think you already answered my question though indirectly though. Honestly, in other words you don't think Aderans or Histogen would be a viable solution for me? Is it a possibility? Thanks again and I am sorry if it comes off like I am pestering you. I really am just trying to clear things up for myself (and you guys seem to know better than anyone else). My situation is a lot like your guys in a way though… I mean it doesn't feel to good to have this problem. Actually a lot like you guys in the fact if this did work it would make my life perfect again. U know… what I mean.
I don't know if anyone has read this already but if you haven't I thought some of you may find it interesting. This is what Dr Cotsarellis will be talking about at the World Congress for Hair Research in June. I doubt we'll be hearing anything about the treatments we're waiting for.
"Prof George Cotsarelis, University of Pennsylvania, United States………
Hair follicle bulge cells constitute a collection of adult somatic stem cells responsible for the continual renewal of the hair follicle. We originally identified cytokeratin 15 (K15) expression as a marker for these cells and developed several transgenic mouse models using the K15 promoter to further study the bulge cells. We isolated bulge cells and demonstrated that they possessed an epithelial stem cell phenotype of quiescence, high proliferative potential and multipotency. We also characterized the cells at the molecular level using microarrays and identified approximately 150 differentially expressed genes in these cells. Through genetic lineage analysis using an inducible K15-CrePR;R26R bigenic mouse, we showed that bulge cells generate all of the epithelial lineages within the lower anagen hair follicle. Destruction of bulge cells caused loss of the hair follicle.
To assess the role of hair follicle stem cells in human alopecias, we studied bald and non-bald scalp from men with androgenetic alopecia. We assessed presence of hair follicle stem and progenitor cells using flow cytometry to quantitate cells expressing K15, CD200, CD34 and Alpha-6-integrin. High levels of KRT15 expression correlated with stem cell properties of small cell size and quiescence. Cells with the highest level of KRT15 expression were maintained in bald scalp; however, distinct populations of CD200high ITGA6high cells and CD34-positive cells were markedly diminished. The diminished populations localized closely to the stem-cell rich bulge area but were larger and more proliferative than the bulge stem cells. These findings demonstrate the utility of FACS analysis for studying stem and progenitor cells in human alopecias, and suggest that a defect in stem cell activation plays a role in the pathogenesis of androgenetic alopecia"
And this means…?
I don't understand it. I don't understand medical english, so if anyone knows what this means and explains it, I would be thankful.
Like I said, thank you in advance.
Cotsarelis has steadily separated himself from Follica. He holds the exact same position (scientific advisory board) at Follica as he does at Aderans, yet noone attributes him to Aderans' research.
Remember, just because PureTech Ventures is a great company (I mean, look at all the press they were able to garner for a weak start-up) doesn't mean Follica is a great company. In fact, one of Puretech's other portfolio companies just recently flopped.
I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if that was the ultimate fate of Follica.
Sorry Zarko I'm not entirely sure what it means, I think Ryan was just showing that Cotsarellis wouldn't be talking about Follica at this conference, I think we all knew that but thanks for clarifying it once and for all Ryan.
Shooter, does it really make a difference to Follica if one of Purtech's other companies go out of business?
Sooner or later Follica will have to show their hand, that money they raised won't last forever.
I didn't become aware of Follica until late last year so I haven't invested the same amount of hope in the company as so many others here have.
I have also seen no reason to believe Cotsarelis is distancing himself from Follica. My goodness, the process Follica has patented is Cotsarelis's process so why would he distance himself from them?
In regards to Aderans, they don't even spell Cotsarelis' name correctly. Anything associated with Bosley is concerning.
I agree that Bosley's involvement is disconcerting. But remember, Aderans is not Bosley. Bosley got BOUGHT by Aderans, who also owns ARI.
I agree with Shooter, just because they are a part of it doent mean they have the same team, style. Bit like VW and Audi. Same compnay but do diffrent projects
Nice Info Ryan….I missed that. Zarko, I don't understand the details but essentially I believe it says there are a number of different types of stem cells contained in the bulge area of the follicle. They compared these cells in bald vs. non-bald scalps, and found that in bald scalps, these cells are smaller in size and are dormant. They have identified another symptom but not the cause. Each new discovery sheds a little more light on the problem and the good news is that it appears to confirm that cells go dormant rather than die. Histogen's treatment appears to "wake up" these cells and if you recall research from Trichoscience, they claim that when the new cultured dermal sheath cup cells are injected into the scalp, they migrate to these dormant cells and rejuvenate them into growing terminal hair again. It also looks like Cotsarelis has developed a research method where he is comparing, at the cellular level, the differences between bald and non-bald scalps. This is the second time in the last 2 weeks I have seen research posted about 2 different comparisons.
Not that I would agree with what I am about to suggest one way or the other, but, thinking out loud and just food for thought, it is possible that Follica could be conducting human testing that is not a "clinical trial" in the FDA sense of the word. Back in August of 2008, Daphne Zohar said "What's so beautiful about the approach, [Zohar] says, is that translating it into a treatment for humans involves only devices and drugs that are already on the market.". Since FDA approved drugs can be used "off-label", Follica could legally be testing and refining their treatment in private. They would still need FDA approval to market the treatment but if the method were perfected, they could probably blow thru 3 Phases of clinical trials, possibly simultaneously. Again, I'm not saying this is what's happening but it is a possible explanation for any apparent lack of an FDA clinical trial. I don't see any red flags of demise yet at Follica. The advisory board consists of Cotsarelis (U of Penn), Rox Anderson (Harvard) & Vera Price (U of Cal) among others and they are all still there. Respectfully Shooter, I may have missed something but I haven't seen any evidence of Cotsarelis distancing himself from Follica. He has been on the advisory board at Aderans for years (although odd that he is still serving) and has co-authored a number of research papers with Kurt Stenn. Follica said in January that they were "excited about the progress" and, the fact that they were hiring new people as recently as January seems to back that up. They may appear to be behind in the race but it looks to me like they are still very much in the game.
Does anyone know if the author of this piece, Robert Buderi, has ever tried to contact Dr. Cotsarelis for an interview? That would be quite intesting it may be a big help in determining what to expect in the coming year. Maybe it's not in his realm of reporting, but it's a thought.
Also, has anyone read this article on Cotsarelis? It's a year or so old, but it provides some interesting insight.
If phase II/III goes well for Andreans, how long will it take for them to come to market. I would really like to know, some people say 5 years, 10 years?
This is what excited me (reserved excitement!) To borrow a couple of quotes from ZZ~
"Each new discovery sheds a little more light on the problem and the good news is that it appears to confirm that cells go dormant rather than die."
"…the new cultured dermal sheath cup cells are injected into the scalp, they migrate to these dormant cells and rejuvenate them into growing terminal hair again"
We are talking about medical facts now.
Its ok to have a hypothetical positive 'what if' here. Based on what has been produced thus far..What if Histogen's phase 2 in Singapore(using a higher dosage of HSC) on a produces a very FAVORABLE outcome? Be optimistic guys and dont allow yourself to give up hope. There are a lot of people and doctors out there who make a lot of money NOW in the hair industry( HT FUE Laser combs etc snake oils) That being said some would discourage you into thinking that some form of treatment would be eons away. Discouragement can lead to decisions that would line their pockets with your money. Just being hypothetical with this thought. I just dont want any of you younger guys to be so downcast.
ZZ, I hope you're right about their testing. I can't see why it would take over a year to gather all the information they needed from a wounding or skin disruption trial. Surely they must have taken their testing further than that.
Correct me if i am wrong Ryan ,,didn't Naughton say in interview that they had better patient results without disrupting the scalp?
Just a possibility Ryan b/c with the funding they have and the pedigree of their board (Harvard, Penn) and staff, I agree that the lack of any real clinical test just doesn't seem to add up. Yes Artista, Histogen did have better results without disruption. I read that when it came out DBS, great peice.
I spoke to a representative from Aderans about signing up for their clinical trial. She said they would be changing their website in May with new clinical trials. Encouraging information?
Joey, can you elaborate on that a little? I thought they already added the new locations to the map on their website.
TrichoScience is back:
Artista, I think I remember reading that yes, that might have something to do with the way their treatment is administered by injection. The wounding process in Follica's treatment is equally as important as the compound from what I've read, I just can't see why it would take this amount of time to gather all the information they needed about that original wounding trial.
Good to see Trichoscience back up again, I like the sound of this on their site.
"a revolutionary new hair cell replication technology with the potential to become the world's first non-surgical, permanent cure for pattern baldness and general hair loss in both men and women.
Proven safe and effective in laboratory trials, the procedure will undergo human clinical trials beginning in 2010."
Hopefully they will start replying to peoples emails again. I saw their abstract for what they will be talking about at the hair conference in June, I'll put it up on here for those interested.
"Treatment of hair loss with autologous cells has become a medical research focus in recent years. In 2003 we described dermal sheath cup (DSC) cells at the lowermost part of the hair follicle dermal sheath capable of forming or repopulating hair follicle mesenchymal structures. In mice, DSC cell injections made small hair follicles larger and induced hairs de novo in foot pad skin normally devoid of hair. It was therefore reasonable to develop this observation further in order to allow human trials. In general, autologous cells are considered to be very safe when used to treat diseases, but additional knowledge of safety issues when using DSC cells is a prerequisite before embarking on human trials. Over the course of the last few years we have established the production of DSC cells under GMP (good manufacturing practice) rules. GMP-cultured DSC cells were analysed for safety issues both in vitro and in vivo using GLP (good laboratory practice). Our results showed that DSC cells retain their normal karyogram and are not tumorigenic in vitro. Injection of cultured DSC cells and human fibrosarcoma HT-1080 cells into the skin of Severe Combined Immunodeficient (NOD/SCID) mice showed the expected tumor growth of HT-1080 cells but no tumor formation from injected DSC cells. These studies further confirm the excellent safety profile of DSC cells and results provide regulatory support for continuation of clinical trials."
As much as we want Trichoscience to come back, they are at least 2 – 4 years behind Adreans
Trichoscience, ARI, Histogen, ARI, all these guys are top researchers in their fields. Even if it may take years for this research to come to fruition, it is so encouraging to see such resources put towards our problem. I mean, just look at the number of guys on those teams coming from top universities and research centers. Hair research is now part of the big leagues, guys.
Of course, Bill Gates would like us to believe that this is a waste of resources. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20002817-56.html
He would rather have people develop vaccines to help enrich the big pharmas. Hey! Why not create some fake pandemic (SARS, swine flu) and develop new vaccines! Better than helping people struggling with hairloss, right?
Hair is only the beginning. This research will help people in so many ways. Growing hair is the key to growing skin, and many other organs and tissues as an extension.
Let's be thankful guys. By the time we retire, we should have luxurious hair to flirt with to hot grannies! ;)
Sounds like they're behind Aderans, but, i think the important thing is that they're pushing forward. Tricho has proven their technique is safe, which is huge and I think bodes well for Follica and Histogen too. Right now, there are multiple companies going after this aggressively, using similar techniques. They must be fairly confident that the it's going to work. If anything, having Tricho presenting results, updating website and gearing up for clinical trials this year is going to put more pressure on Follica, Histogen and Aderans to get to market quicker. The race is on. This is getting exciting!
And what i find most interesting is that they really understand the mechanisms of how their procedures are growing hair – unlike with other treatments like minoxidil, where they initially had very little understaning of how it worked… and still to this day don't fully know. There's no inhibiting of enzymes which sit at the intersections of multiple metabolic pathways – finasteride. So, far less chance for negative results and side effects.
For the first time, i'm feeling optimistic about this…
Th thing that will work in our favour is that if they all come to market at the around the same kind off time, all producing the same end results then it shouldnt be too expensive.
Like everyone else, I'm glad to see so much has been learned about the hair follicle. I too thought is was big news when research seemed to confirm follicles go into permanent rest rather than die.
Unfortunately, even if a researcher were to develop a compound or drug that cured hair loss today, it would still be five years before we could hope to see it on the market. That's just the way things work with FDA.
For this reason, I still think Follica's premise holds the most hope for immediate relief. Because they are just using things already on the market, it makes the end product easier and quicker to get to us.
Quite honestly, I don't see why Follica just doesn't market its product, assuming it works, like Proactive. It didn't go through lengthy FDA trials, but it seems to do a great job even though it uses topical compounds.
DBS, why do you think that they can't release their product anywhere else beside USA?
Outside USA, FDA rules are shit so…
If thier product worked they would have it outside rthe US, it simply just doesnt work yet?
Adreans or Histogen will be one of the first two to market (if all goes well). If you cant see that then you are blind!
Follica = JOKE, to be honest all people talk about is their beauty of their product, it doesnt need FDA trials.
Action speaks louder than words!
Follica's become a colossal joke. I wouldn't call them the hair industry's village idiots just yet since those honors are currently held by TRX2, but I would certainly say they'd make excellent apprentices for the job.
DBS, let us know when your honeymoon with Follica's over, so we can get back to work discussing worthy options such as Histogen and Aderans.
As a rule, I never get too excited about hair loss research companies. There is just too much variability with regard to the science. In vitro tests almost never translate to animal models which almost never translate to human trials. Still, I am glad that both Aderans, Histogen and TrichoScience are fighting hard to achieve success.
TrichoScience is certainly farther behind than Aderans, but at least they are at the human level (which is really the only one that matters). By the end of the year I *hope* to know whether or not TrichoScience and Aderans have proved that their concept grows actual hair in human scalps.
I agree with Shooter, by the end of the year orf very latest may 2011 we should know if we will have our hair back in the near future or still be balding for longer
A honeymoon with Follica! That's pretty funny. What's even funnier is describing Follica as a collosal joke. On what basis can that claim be made? Has their science been proven faulty or unreasonable? Are the researchers and academics working for them not of the highest credentials? Have they gone bankrupt?
The answer to all of those questions is no, but apparently, not giving regular updates to guys on the internet does. I would be the first to admitt their silence is frustrating, but what do they owe any of us? My goodness, some people act like high school girls jilted by their first crushes because Follica doesn't give the updates they feel they deserve.
Maybe Follica has failed or will failed, but they haven't said so yet. Clearly, Follica has a different PR strategy than Histogen or Aderans. Did it ever occur to some they may be spicing up their reports to attract funding they've been struggling to get? It seems to me Follica, with no PR strategy, has done very well raising funds.
If some want to lable me a Follica groupie, go ahead. Until they say they've failed, I feel they are the best solution because it is the least invasive and least time consuming.
Colossal joke = highlight NBC article on your website (you know, the one that raves about your research/ claims a treatment will be available in less than 4 years), collect 16.5 million dollars in funding, go on a mini media blitz reaffirming the afore mentioned NBC piece than spend 2.5 years without initiating a single human trial.
FOLLICA not and a joke… FOLLICA is a garbage…
Here's a little more news involving Histogen.
[Histogen, Inc., a regenerative medicine company developing solutions based on the products of newborn cells grown under embryonic conditions, will present new findings today at the International Conference on Stem Cell Engineering (ICSCE). Analysis of the cells grown under Histogen's proprietary conditions of hypoxia and low gravity show the expression of specific markers associated with embryonic stem cells.
San Diego, CA (PRWEB) May 3, 2010 — Histogen, Inc., a regenerative medicine company developing solutions based on the products of newborn cells grown under embryonic conditions, will present new findings today at the International Conference on Stem Cell Engineering (ICSCE). Analysis of the cells grown under Histogen's proprietary conditions of hypoxia and low gravity show the expression of specific markers associated with embryonic stem cells.
Different cell types can be identified by unique profiles based on the genes they express, the proteins they produce, and markers that they have on their cell surface. Histogen has discovered that, under growth conditions of 2-5% oxygen (hypoxia) and low gravity, safe and non-controversial newborn skin cells (fibroblasts) acquire the profile of pluripotent stem cells.
"Over 5,000 genes are differentially expressed by these cells, as compared to fibroblasts grown under traditional conditions," said Dr. Gail K. Naughton, CEO and Chairman of the Board at Histogen. "What we are seeing is a shift in the profile of these cells to one that is more embryonic-like, more similar to stem cells than fibroblasts."
DNA microarray analysis revealed that, under hypoxic culture conditions, fibroblasts upregulate the expression of key embryonic stem cell markers including Oct4, Nanog, and Sox2. These specific genes are known to be critical in the generation of induced pluripotent stem cells. A number of other stem cell-associated markers, such as Brachyury, Gata4, CCR4, LIN28 and Nodal FGF5 were also expressed at higher levels in the hypoxic cultures as compared to fibroblasts grown under normal oxygen levels.
These studies suggest hypoxic culture of somatic cells in large-scale bioreactor systems is a potentially feasible and efficient method for obtaining and producing adequate amounts of pluripotent stem cells and associated factors for clinical regenerative medicine applications.
"Reprogramming adult, differentiated somatic cell types through chemical manipulation or genetic transfection to transform the cells into a dedifferentiated, pluripotent stem cell phenotype has been the focus of many recent studies," said Dr. Jonathan Mansbridge, Chief Scientific Officer at Histogen. "Although these experiments have demonstrated the ability to induce cells back to a pluripotent state, the methods used have raised considerable issues regarding mutagenicity and clinical safety. We now have preliminary evidence that, by altering the oxygen levels under which neonatal fibroblasts are cultured, there is potential for a viable pluripotent stem cell source that would be free of these issues."
Human extracellular matrix (hECM) compositions produced under the hypoxia/microgravity conditions discussed here are covered by pending US patent #2010/0047305. "Induction of Stem Cell Marker Expression in Human Dermal Fibroblasts in Hypoxic Culture Conditions" will be presented by Dr. Mansbridge at the ICSCE event, taking place May 2-5, 2010 in Boston, Mass.]
I forgot to put the link up for that article.
Does anyone know when the Aderans Phase II will conclude?
May 04, 2010 13:30 CEST
Aderans Research Institute Inc. (ARI) said today it has expanded its clinical trials on hair regeneration by an additional seven cities in the United States. Las Vegas, NV; Los Angeles, CA; and New Hyde Park, NY, have been added through clinical site company Impact Clinical Trials. Tucson, AZ; St. Louis, MO; Birmingham, AL; and St. Petersburg, FL, have been added through clinical site company Radiant Research.
Collectively, the Radiant and Impact sites will add around 80 new subjects to the study. Combined with at least twenty new additions at a site hosted by TKL Research, the second phase of ARI's clinical study will surpass 200 subjects in total, a remarkable number of participants for a Phase 2 trial.
"The expansion of our study reflects not only the significance of the investment made by Aderans Co. Ltd of Japan, but also our confidence that we're getting closer to a commercial viable solution to the problems of hair loss," said Vern Liebmann, Vice President, Operations.
Added ARI Executive Vice President Ken Washenik M.D., Ph.D., "We've received some encouraging results from our initial Phase 2 studies and we're eager to expand the trial, add new protocols, and refine our knowledge of the hair multiplication and regeneration process."
Kurt Stenn M.D., Vice President of Research and Chief Scientific Officer, commented, "It is gratifying to see our research being steadily confirmed in our clinical work."
What do you make of this shooter? rev? artista? I'm getting excited, but does this mean that things are going well, or that the need to test more patients to figure out certain problems?
If these guys aren't bullshitting us… wow.
I don't know what to think, but this press release SEEMS to indicate two things:
1) The process works to some extent.
2) It doesn't work well enough to be "commercially viable" yet, but they have confidence that, with some tweaking, they can get it to the "commercially viable" stage.
Remember, you can't push something into the VERY expensive Phase 3 stage until your protocol is extremely reliable and reproducible. Hopefully they have a working procedure and just need to get the protocol consistent enough to mitigate Phase 2 risks.
Well, the news is certainly encouraging. Would it be wrong to state their process as more of a hair maintenance regime? It would seem to me not a great process for totally bald heads or near bald heads. The amount of coverage and number of injections could really cause the cost to sky rocket. Just a thought, but a good one to worry about right now.
Hopefully, this news will force the other ventures to speed up their time frames.
I can't speak on behalf of anyone else, but I think this press release is rather impressive (and hopeful).
Phase II is typically the efficacy phase (you know… someone's in the kitchen trying to get the recipe tasting "just right"). It looks like Aderans' recipe needs refinement; hence, the trail expansion. Moreso, they wouldn't waste money on a trial expansion if the results from the original cohort were poor (think Intercytex – they didn't expand their Phase II not just because of financial woes, but simple because their results sucked). Clearly, Aderans doesn't have either of those problems.
Lastly, I'd like to add that I have a great deal of respect for any company with the courtesy to keep us in the loop (yes, that was another jab at the a-holes @ Follica).
DBS or Shooter,
I know no one knows specifics, but if you had to make a guess… what would you say the market price would be for Aderans procedure (if it's on the market in the next few years)?
Just a guess.
Something in my gut tells me the initial pricepoint will hover around $15,000 until economies of scale kick-in (think flatscreens – they came out costing $30,000 now you can buy them for under 1k).
Of course, if the folks at Aderans were smart they would keep the pricepoints no higher than the cost of breast implants (another popular vanity-oriented cosmetic procedure) ~ 5-7k. Anything over 10k is woefully out of the league of the common Joe.
I just signed up for consideration on the Aderans clinical trials here in L.A. I still have to go through a screening process to see if I qualify. They said said that trials would be starting shortly. It would be a year long process, and I would be compensated $1400. I hope I get chosen. If I do, I will keep everyone posted as to my progress. Wish me luck….
Thanks for the heads up Ritchie. I guess we can therefore assume that we will not here anything from Aderans for at least another year. While they conclude this recent coehort of trialists.
We can expect Aderans to stay silent for awhile (I think they've earned it), although I would like them to reveal something about the first leg of the Phase 2 that has just been completed. Like pictures or something. Not sure if that's realistic though.
That's some really exciting news! Hopefully the days of Rogaine will soon be over for us! Lets say this phase II study takes a year…. after that is the FDA trials? How long does that typically take?
Does anyone else find it funny that we basically turned this site into a hair loss forum?
Hey Joey, Aderans is in FDA trials now. Phase 1, 2 and 3 are the stages of the FDA clinical process prior to NDA submission.
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Phase II, will come Phase III; this is where some Companies are allowed to bring their product to market even while Phase III is in motion. Phase II results are carefully reviewed by the FDA. If they are sound, then Phase III can begin. In Phase III, a bigger clinical trial is conducted with anywhere between 300-3,000 people. This process can take between another 1-3 years. In Aderans case I would guess another 2 years.
Nope. You need to complete Phase III, submit for NDA, and get your FDA approval before you can sell your product to the masses.
Fair play to keeping us in the know, i respect them! If everyting thing goes well maybe 2 – 3 years! i just hope i can hang on to what i got untill then!
why do they need to do a double blinded study to prove it works. its pretty well established that hair loss is progressive and they can tell if a treatment works just by counting the hairs . cut thier costs in half.
If everything goes well…
Thats a famous one.
We all know about the work of Aderan, Follica, and others, but does anyone know if any of the big pharmas are working on this issue? Are Upjohn, Merck, Pfizer, or any of the others working on a drug treatment that's not as well known as the companies we have been discussing?
I doubt it, they don't know what causes hair loss. We are getting closer
Adrean are making progress, how long does this phase 2 last, another year?
ZZ have tricho science responded to any of your emails?
Billy, I emailed Tricho after the website came back up to clarify their timeline for Phase I. Previously I thought they had indicated that it had begun in September of 2009 but the new website initially indicated it would begin in 2010. No email response yet but they have revised their website to say: "…the TrichoScience team has started development of a human clinical trial program. The team is on track to open patient enrolment in Europe on their first-in-human research protocol in the second half of 2010." So I guess they started "devoping" the clinical trial in 2009 but haven't actually done any testing yet. I am sure with Aderan's comments yesterday, the most encouraging update I have heard yet from anyone, this will light a fire under everyone's timetable.
Guys Aderans is very very exciting but I don't see them having a comercial product for anotehr 5 years at bessssst case.
for instance they have anotehr year in phase II.
Then if all goes well 6-months to a year to set up phase III. Then about 2 years in Phase III. Then at least another year getting it passed through the fda.
This is best case as I see it :(
FFFFFFFF THAT!!!!!! We need something sooner!!
I was reading about clinical trials on Wikipedia so obviously the information may not be 100% fact, and I saw this in the phase 3 section.
[Most drugs undergoing Phase III clinical trials can be marketed under FDA norms with proper recommendations and guidelines, but in case of any adverse effects being reported anywhere, the drugs need to be recalled immediately from the market. While most pharmaceutical companies refrain from this practice, it is not abnormal to see many drugs undergoing Phase III clinical trials in the market.]
I don't want to spread the wrong information as that happens a lot when we're discussing hairloss, does this mean that one of the treatments that we're waiting for could go to market while still in phase 3 or does it not apply to them?
Interesting find, Ryan.
I read an interview somewhere and Dr. Washenik said they needed to go through every phase (because it is a very unique procedure), but who knows… things change.
That could potentially be great news, let's just not count on it.
It IS possible Ryan. By the way ,,im glad that you thought to look up the topic of 'clinical trials' via Wikipedia . Good idea. It helps to keep a good perspective on things related. I believe the pace has been stepped up a bit (thanks to Ms Naughton/Histogen?) I agree with ZZ in that the Naughton interview was devised to stir up the pot so to speak. To create financial interests. The difference with this situation is that they/Histogen DO have a product that works. Keep in mind that they have been under the restrictions of a Phase/One. What is in the near future, say 2011?
I thought it was interesting as well Shooter, I'm not sure if it will apply to the companies we're waiting for, here's the whole page if anyone wants to read it and try and make sense of it.
Artista, Histogen are definitely looking for further financing, someone on hairsite emailed them about that very subject and this was there reply.
"Thank you for your interest and message. In response to your inquiry, Histogen is a private company. We are currently seeking Series B financing, and would be happy to provide information about the investment opportunity if this would be of interest."
I believe I mentioned being able to market a product during phase III on this forum (comment date 5/4/10 above), but rev disagreed. Rev, were you sure or were you guessing?
In any case, the fact that Histogen can grow hair, and I'm assuming so can Aderans makes me very excited. I know before we would get news which always seemed like B.S., but these are real trials with real data.
I just can't understand why Follica is still in the dark.
Here is a question maybe someone can answer. When a Company such as Follica files for a patents regarding 'kits' and such, are they allowed to be theoretical or do they actually have to be proven/work?
Ryan, Unless I am mistaken, Histogen has already established the financial backing they need to conduct PhaseII this Fall in Singapore. Im sure they would accept additional funding at this point but they are on their way.
iwantsome hair, i dont think it will take them 5 years, i think 3 year but thats my personal view
Jordan you are not the only one. Hopes are high but very guarded. Lets say that For example lets say that Histogen is well into their phase II and run into some type of delaying complication in testing. Would that be so terrible? After all,at that point in time they would be very well down the right path to resolving the matter of hair loss. A path you would not have imagined they could/would be able to take in say 1995. My point is repetitive, you younger guys WILL enjoy the fruits of their labor. At an initial set price of course but a cost that will slowly recede like our damn hair is doing now. Pun intended.
Here's the problem as I see with Histogen and Aderans. Their processes are new and require a high degree of scrutiny from the FDA. As such, even though both are in some form a Stage II testing, they will still likely need to go through Stage III before any product is on the market. I can't imagine them going public while at the same time testing in Phase III.
For these reasons, that is why I have been so much more interested in Follica. Because they are only doing things already approved for other treatments, their hurdle is shorter in terms of FDA trials. Unfortunately, it will have been a year next week since we last officially heard from them. I don't think that's a sure sign of failure on their part, but it doesn't make me believe anything good either.
I don't want to incur the wrath of Follica haters, I'm just pointing out that it's still several years before we can hope for good news.
DBS ,you are correct when you said "Their processes are new and require a high degree of scrutiny from the FDA…" in AMERICA. The FDA is indeed a hurdle but not one that would halt developmental progress. That is why Histogen is flying over seas now.
how long is a phase III trail?
A website of a company that does Clinical trials…
I read this paragraph below from an article at 5/7/07…
"The 'embryonic window' gives us the opportunity to develop disease treatments that act in entirely novel ways," said Daphne Zohar, PureTech Ventures founding managing partner and Follica CEO. "The clinical translation of this technique involves straightforward, safe dermatological procedures, and we are studying the impact of multiple drugs and drug-like compounds on this regenerative response as we advance in preclinical testing."
Let's get ready to celebrate a 3-year anniversary tomorrow guys…
it says phase III can last several years,
i think it is going to be a few more years :( :(
First hope that phase 2 will be successful. If it is, phase 3 has a 90% success rate of being approved by FDA.
Plus, if the data from phase 2 is very good, then phase 3 should be a breeze.
I give it 2-3 years.
For what it's worth, I give it 3-4 years IF IF IF Phase 2 continues to go well.
ill be 28 – 29 then :(
I wish we had it now
Jordan !! do you realize that to be 28-29 years old when they come up with a viable treatment would be….GREAT? My gosh man ,,realize the reality.
I'll be the same age as you Jordan… though it might not even work for my situation. I really do hope so though!
"I believe I mentioned being able to market a product during phase III on this forum (comment date 5/4/10 above), but rev disagreed. Rev, were you sure or were you guessing?"
deluxe, I was making an assumption based on three other — non hair related — drugs I've been watching of late.
Follica is almost assuredly encountering problems: http://www.heralopecia.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15004&view=next
I feel awful for the woman in the thread. I can't believe the "good doctor" gave her such a vague answer. She clearly needs a better option for managing her hair loss.
I wish there was some way to publicly rebuke researchers and businesspeople that make their living off of getting peoples' hopes up with no intention of delivering. I know alot of guys on this thread really like Follica, but quite frankly the company makes me sick.
I agree Shooter they literally feed off of peoples pain & suffering. They never did actually have any desire to help anyone. I hope the entire Follica team rot in hell.
Follica are idiots, I don't count them as a player, just jokers
what she annoys more me people are asking how much time we can have available the treatment of follica…how they can ask on that nor it exists, and nor if one day really will exist? or somebody already saw a person here to leave of being one norwood 6 or 7 and to come back to have a full head of hair with the treatment of follica? for much time we will not have nothing of follica, nothing. they wake up, they do not wait to see something of follica before 4 or 5 years, or NEVER.
Washington….stop smoking crack!!!!
Come on now. Lets not get insulting here oK?
I read those posts to which you linked and I didn't get the impression Follica was encountering problems. That doesn't mean they arem't, but I didn't get the same dour sense you did.
Hey guys, I'm 25 turning 26 in June. How about you all… I guess you don't have to post it, but it would be nice to know a little bit about everyone…afterall we do spend a lot of time on here together.
Im 26 in august LOL starting to get older never hits you until your staring at it, wonder what it will feel like to be like late 30s early 40s wah.
24 here! I also agree with DBS. Shooter, I don't know why you're so glim over Follica. That thread provides no real information.
You guys in your mid to early twenties should be happy as hell..geez. Most likely you'll have your hair for your 30's. As long as you don't get married, your 30's will be much better than your 20's…trust me.
I have no idea what all the bashing of follica is about – it's ridiculous to think biological research is going to conform to any type of timeline. The statements made by costarelis were speculative and he said as much…every statement from him was qualified with a "if things go smoothly". It was mostly the news medical editor who opinied that there would be something commerically available in a couple of years. Furthermore, at this point, Follica is a far more stable company than Histogen. Financially, they are flush and have an incredible scientific and executive team. Histogen is a bunch of nobodies, and has a major lawsuit hanging over it's head. And other than one photograph and a very small study with a limited data set, not much else to show. I wouldn't go jumping to any conclusions about what they'll be able to do. At least not until they have a comprehensive and larger phase II data set. Aderans is leading this race right now.
Personally, i would like to see Histogen win, simply because they have the simplest solution…a couple of injections and your done. Easy to implement, equals, cheaper procedure and more rapid distribution. But, at this point, i would bet on Aderans. And of course i'd be happy with any solution.
I saw this posted on hairsite earlier and thought some of you guys might find it interesting.
Aderans Research Presents at SID (Society of Investigative Dermatology). The abstract is entitled.
"Common mechanism of hair follicle formation from dissociated trichogenic epidermal and dermal cells," the work investigates whether morphogenetic steps dissociated cells take to produce a hair follicle in a mouse are the same across all mammals. The study concludes, "that hair follicles form from dissociated cells in all mammals by one common, or universal, morphogenetic pathway."
Cool, Ryan! Aderans is issuing press releases at an incredible (some would say unsustainable) rate!
I really, really hope this means they are on to something. It seems like this is the kind of presentation we have all been waiting for. I have no reason to know that for sure, but it seems like they are finally talking about growing hair in humans.
Btw, regarding Follica…
I don't know what to say, except that the company makes me want to vomit. It's a physiological mechanism I can't explain. Sorta like hair loss.
Lol, maybe that's too harsh. Still, I'm happy about Aderans (I just hope they aren't leading us on).
J… I never used drugs! If you find that I am drugged, and know something new you say, all you look in them for information on follica. what we have of new? some good news?
Here's the abstract from the Aderans website:
@ Shooter
I was wondering…how old are you?
you seem very knowledgeable about this topic
That abstract from Aderans sounds quite promising. I know what you mean about Follica as well Shooter, it's like this quote from the movie Clockwise.
"It's not the despair, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
These companies shouldn't be giving people false hope, I don't care how private they want to be to protect their company secrets, the issue they're dealing with causes a lot of people a lot of despair.
Guys correct me if am wrong,
the abstract says that they used skin samples of new born mammals(including human) can the same be true on adult skin..??
because that's the problem all these companies are facing…making adult skin to produce hair follicle(histogen,follica) or support cloned cells(aderans,tricoscience)…
I have a feeling that we are going to hear what we already know at the confrence :S
Ers – Yeah, I noticed the same thing when I looked at the abstract a little further. Apparently for each experiment they used "patch assays" which are not exactly perfect representations of adult mammals. All I can say is that hopefully the presentation represents a small part of the bigger picture.
I'm hoping that they wouldn't initiate large-scale clinical trials if they weren't certain it would also work in adult mammals.
Shooter – Love ya babe but I think all this is driving you a little bonkers. I'm trying to be super objective about all this but you really are over-reacting. Follica owe us nothing. They're just doing their thing. Hopefully something will come of it. Until then, get a short haircut, hit the gym, wear nicer clothes and live a charmed life that people want to be a part of.
If there's one thing that women understand, (or whoever you're trying to impress with flowing Fabio tresses) it's feeling awkward and insecure about short comings in the way you look. When they meet someone with a small imperfection who mitigates it with grace, strength and a sense of humor, they feel liberated, inspired and turned on.
That's the absolute truth.
It's great that a cure is coming. We don't need to be slaves to our haircuts in the meantime. We can use this time to focus on our personal integrity and inner strength regardless of self image.
I'm going to China for a year to study martial arts with Shaolin Monks. I wont be thinking about bitches…or acting like one either. When I get back, maybe there will be cure. Or maybe I won't care.
One of the things that comes with being a man is that you might lose your hair. The upside is that being a man is god damn bad ass.
SO I guess I'm just saying its important to keep things in perspective and try not to bug out too much.
Oh shit the self help gurus have found their way here now, that's the last thing most people want.
I'm a bit tired of hearing people say Follica don't owe people anything, we know that these companies don't owe us anything but that isn't the point,to be completely honest I couldn't give a flying fuck what Follica think, if they didn't want to be bothered by people who are desperate for a real treatment for this then they should have kept their mouths shut. I don't think they needed to go on television to get the venture capitalists attention and I also don't think it was of utmost importance for the people involved at the company to give contradictory comments whenever asked about it.
All they have to do is be honest about where they're in their development, that's all we ask as far as I know. We don't want to know what's in their compound and we don't want to know how they're doing the wounding. So don't worry Follica all your secrets can remain safe, just tell us when you hope to test it on humans.
Has anyone tried to contact Robert Buderi and see if he can coax another story from Follica?
I've been on here since the beginning Ryan. And I'm no guru, just giving a little advice to people looking for perspective. I'm in the same position as everyone else here, I'm just not stomping my feet and wetting my pants. Figured I'd pass on my methods.
herzog, I think it's you anyway, you've used my name by accident. If you're happy with yourself that's great but nobody should be giving advice out to people they haven't met, everyone deals with things differently.
DBS, in fairness to Robert Buderi he has tried to get more updates from them but they won't say anything. I don't think there's much he can do about it. It's a shame NBC don't do a follow up on there medical stories.
Thanks for the advice ;-)
Ryan – I agree completely.
herzog – Skip it !!
Follica do owe us, if they didnt they shouldnt have done that NCB video!
I agree Jordan. In fact, I think everyone here should visit the NBC video link — the one Follica's using to showcase themselves — in order to leave their own comment. I've done so already. Here's the link:
rev, that comment you left is spot on.
I don't care if anyone disagrees with me, there is no reason whatsoever why they couldn't tell people how far along they're in developing their treatment. It wouldn't harm their company in any way, shape or form. All they have to do is put a small message on their website to update people.
Regarding the Follica thing again, like the rest of you I can't understand why they're silent like they're, I know some people have mentioned before the possibility that they may be doing trials without public knowledge and someone obviously pointed out that they would need subjects to test on and they would need to advertise for that, but after reading some of the older articles about Follica I don't think they would, they already had the patients from the Harvard proof of concept study they did, well we think they did anyway. So maybe they used the same guys on a trial of some sort.
Follica has mentioned they have received hundreds of unsolicited requests to be part of any trial. Because of that, they made not need to publicly ask for participants. It's conceivable they are already conducting some sort of trial, but it seems unlikely. Like everyone else, I wish they would issue some sort of update. Even if it said they failed, it would be better than not knowing.
It's also conceivable they spent most of that 16.5mil on sloppy handjobs and imported beer.
It's been 2.5 years since they taunted us with their tall tales of golden leprechauns,
flying unicorns, and magical timelines; I think it's due time for a stinking press release!!!
Herzog – Hey man, thanks for the perspective. Honestly, that isn't bad advice. The stuff about the Shaolin monks is awesome, btw!
… I still think that a Follica press release isn't too much to ask. Lol.
As far as I'm concerned Follica's behavior would test the patience of, even, a Shaolin master.
Look folks, here's another press release from Histogen. For those keeping track that's:
Histogen Welcomes Dr. Hyma Gollamudi as Chief Business Officer
I think Follica is being quite because of people trying to "Do it Yourself" with their reports. They got quite right after people started experimenting on themselves.
…and I think Follica's acting like a bunch of A-Holes.
Consider that, thus far, none of the DIY guys achieved any appreciable results replicating Follica's public patent, and nobody's asking them to elaborate on that patent to a greater extent – their proprietary tech is safe. So ,please, tell me how a measly press release stating Follica achieved proof-of-concept on humans could possibly hurt their operation?
A small ounce of kindness would go a long way for Follica's PR; instead, they're opting to take a huge dump on their prospective client base… which, if you think about it, is an atypical function of A-Holes.
Slightly off topic, but has anyone noticed the resemblance between Dr George Cotsarelis and Dr Leo Spaceman from 30 rock?
Cots also reminds me a little of Ray Romano… basically any middle-aged joker with a full, dark, head-of-hair reminds me of Doc Cots.
JS, You're right he does look like him.
I was just reading the posts on Hairsite from July 2008 when Follica were getting that group together to do the wounding study at Harvard, one of the posters called Baccy was the guy who was trying it himself at home and had successfully seen some follicles come back on skin that had been bald for decades, he even emailed Follica to tell them. So if a guy at home can achieve something like that without any medical experience surely their study wasn't a failure and the reason why they went silent.
IIRC, Baccy wasn't able to replicate his initial results which — by his own admission — weren't stellar to begin with. Moreso, no one else on hairsite had much success with their own Follica DIY experiments.
We need to hear it from the top – via press release – that this stuff actually works.
With all due respect, your over the top bashing of Follica is not helpful to the discussion nor is it helpful. I understand you're not happy about their PR strategy. None of us are, but leaving unhappy comments on an MSNBC video or on this site only makes you and us look far more desperate than I would like to think we are. Take a break from the Follica discussion if you are that unhappy. Bashing them here or anywhere else may make you feel better, but it accomplishes nothing.
Good post DBS. I too would like to see that discussion left far behind and focus more on all of the very positive things that have been happening. Lost in the side bar immediately above is the GREAT NEWS that Histogen has apparently secured a comfortable enough level of financing that they can bring on an important new hire AND begin Phase I in Asia.
I am in full agreement ZZ , DBS. I do appreciate Rev's wit and i understand his frustration and anger. Let the Follica 'silence' go for now and focus on what IS. Histogen is far from silent. I'm glad that ZZ pointed out that the Histogen article is GOOD NEWS, cause IT IS.
A bit more clarity from Trichoscience:
…."we have had a number of frustrating delays related to trials protocols and corporate structuring. However, we are now scheduled to begin our Stage I trials in September 2010. We anticipate that, based on positive results from Stage I, we would begin Stage II shortly thereafter."
Oh that's right. Let's kill the messenger. Here's a thought. Instead of focusing all your energy arguing with me how about you guys focus some of it towards a friendly email to Follica …asking them for an update. There's strength in numbers; there's weakness in complacency.
oh, and BTW. I'm the one who posted that Histogen link. I still think we should-have moved our discussion to Xconomy's Histogen article instead of this one. I'm not seeing any traction with Follica… just a whole heap of friction.
I'm also glad to see Trichoscience is still keeping us in the loop. I had my doubts about that company as well after the whole Dr. Hoffmann/ Dr Batra arrangement went nowhere. Here's the original link: http://www.expresshealthcaremgmt.com/200803/market22.shtml
what is the primary difference between tricho's methods vs. aderans?
If I'm not mistaken, TrichoScience harvests and cultures the cup cells while ARI targets their focus on the dermal papilla cells instead
we are now scheduled to begin our Stage I trials in September 2010. We anticipate that, based on positive results from Stage I, we would begin Stage II shortly thereafter
This doesnt make sense, bases on positive resulst from stage I, what does that mean
Jordan, I believe it means that if they have positive results in Stage I, they would move quickly to Phase II. Deluxe, as Rev said, Tricho uses a dermal cup cell and Aderans "uses a two-cell construct, growing not just dermal papillae but also another type of cell from the follicle". Also, I believe the culturing method is different. I don't know much about the details except that I believe Aderans uses a some type of matrix in their culture.
Where did this statement from Trichoscience come from?
Also, did anyone else notice they stopped using the word "cure" on their website, changing it instead to "safe and effective non-surgical treatment."
Technically the latter is more descriptive (and accurate), but I do like the word cure.
This is some great news from Tricho' guys ,,just great.. Rev ,,I dont feel anyone was attacking you so please dont 'go there'. I'd just like us all to steer away from the negativities. If one company in the running is silent ,ok, good for them,,others are NOT. Focus on them ,,send em your good energy.
Arista, the hairloss industry is, without a doubt, one of the most dishonest entities fashioned by mankind. It's crucial to question everything and anything in light of that fact. I suppose you could be docile, like a sheep, about its indiscretions; just don't be surprised if that complacency lands you on the dinner table …served with a side of mint sauce.
I agree with rev about this, it would be stupid of us to just accept anything these companies say, this industry is renowned for it's inability to tell the truth. Also rev that link you put up, is that something to do with Trichocience? I found this statement from Dr Hoffman strange.
"The process of hair cloning will bring an answer for hair growth to millions if balding people across the world, particularly women, who have no effective answer to their balding as on date," said Dr Hoffman.
Now as far as I'm concerned neither men or women have an effective answer for balding, and if they consider the treatments men have now as effective then that really puts doubts in my mind about their future treatments.
I didn't find anything sinister in that particular comment. Men typically have a safe, DHT resistant wreath zone that can be harvested for transplants (albeit poorly). Women don't have that luxury since they bald differently than we do. Perhaps that's why Dr Hoffman meant women have "no effective answer to their balding as on date".
What I consider somewhat – for a lack of a better word – sinister is that around the time of that publication it was rumored that Dr Batra was training several hundred of his Doctors to perform Dr Hoffman's cloning technique. I emailed quite a few of his clinics (August 2008), none of them knew what I was talking about, and it seems nothing became of that article. It's quite odd to see Dr Hoffman turn-up two years later in association with a different outfit. I just emailed TrichoScience to ask what became of Dr Batra's/ Hoffman's efforts. I'll keep everyone here posted.
Rev..No need to remind me that there is dishonesty in the hair loss industry. I would imagine that Ive been around the block just a little bit longer than you. There is dishonesty in everything that humans get involved in on this earth. If you want to equate what i had to say concerning the anger and negativity shown here as being somehow 'docile' or 'sheepish' well,that is your opinion. Reread what DBS had to say about this topic ,,he was right. You can furiously write complete volumes concerning Follica on this site but it wont change a thing. So why waste the energy? There ARE 2 companies that are actually worth the energy .. RIGHT NOW. One of which you had dismissed as "BUTLOAD". Im not exactly sure why you would say that except that maybe your anger is blinding you. Now Rev,im not trying to add to your anger,, i actually love your wit.This site really should be kept above board dont you agree?
First BUTLOAD (or butt load actually) is slang for "allot" or "copious". As in Histogen's provided us with copious amounts of press. I'm a staunch supporter of Histogen.
Second, there are actually three companies worth watching right now: Aderans, Histogen, and TrichoScience.
Third, Follica set the bar high for Follica. I'm simply holding them to that promise; and I certainly won't defend a company that can't abide to its own rules. Much like DBS, I was one of those happy shiny people praising Follica, but that was 2.5 years ago; the honeymoon's over, it's time to double-check the prenuptials, and seriously consider filing a divorce (just not quite yet).
Shooter, That quote was from Tricho yesterday in response to an email I sent them a week ago after their website came back up. I was under the impression from their previous website that their Phase I trial had begun in Sept of 2009. Their new website originally said that trials would begin in 2010 so I emailed for an explanation of the apparent discrepency. Since then they have changed the website to say "2nd half of 2010". I also noticed that they have toned down the description of the expected results. Not sure if that is based on anything of substance or if they are just trying to be more conservative in the expectations they are creating…..I hope the latter but I plan on asking.
It could that Tricho is exercising a bit of conservatism as you had suggested ZZ. I'm sure that they are well aware of , dare i say, the'Follica stigma' of recent months.
Does it seem to anyone here that the research pace has picked up a notch or two ?
Rev ,excuse my ignorance to your use of the slang-BUTLOAD(or butt load)Where I come from it is used in a derogatory manner.
I share the same frustration as rev. I would probably be just as upset and show it on this site just as much but he has pretty much done it for me.
But, in the end, there is only so much we can do…and we will eventually get an answer when they are ready. Although there are some researchers out there who are truly in it to benefit us, because they truly understand where we come from…majority of them are out there for their own interest.
But as some of you have said, we have a lot to look forward to. HISTOGEN – ADERANS – TRICHO…
I will put follica on the back burner for now, but I will not count them out. I just know that they have something cooking…and although I can't see it or taste it…I can smell it.
Rev, please dont follow up with…"yea, it smells like shit!" haha
Thank you Rev your helping me cure my addiction to this forum.
I just hope this is excessive venting rather then some kind of vain taunting.
Either way very funny, getting very old but none the less very funny.
Can someone give me three good reasons to not get a hair transplant this year? I've been holding out. I can't take propecia. Hair is falling out. But, it seems to me, even with the hope that Histogen, Aderans and Tricho will come up with something in the next five years… none of them will work on the hairline. I basically have a quickly disappearing hairline now. UGH.
Is the above comment really true? None of them will work on the hair line? I think thats where about 50% of us have the problem in addition to classic crown balding
Joey ,
That statement hasn't been substantiated at all. I'm not exactly sure where Lurker and others have gotten that idea either. No worries.
That is not true. IF the treatments work– they WILL work on the hair line…the question is, how natural will the hairline look? That is something they will have to refine. It is not impossible, probably just very difficult.
As far as I know, each of these treatments should be able to work anywhere on the scalp, including the hairline. It is general knowledge that propecia & minoxidil don't work well at the hairline but I have never seen any research to the contrary regarding this next generation of possibilities. I think the question at the hairline might turn out to be how to stop the growth at a particular point so that the treatment doesn't migrate down your forehead. If Follica's treatment worked, it might offer the best opportunity to craft a precision hairline based on the theory that the hair growth would only occur where the skin has been disrupted. But this is all speculation. I asked Tricho a similar question about 9 months ago and they said something to the effect that how far the treatment migrates from the point of injection, consistency of growth to avoid patchiness and direction of growth is all an unkown and will be part of the fine tuning. For what its worth, Histogen's picture from their latest press release appears to show all of the hair growing in the same direction.
Lurker, I'll give you one REALLY good reason not to get a hair transplant this year (the only one you need):
If Aderans, Tricho and Histogen fail to deliver, you are not going to have enough donor hair to achieve a cosmetically acceptable result. Since you cannot take propecia, your hair loss will progress, making your transplant look unnatural. Furthermore, you will now have scars on the back of your head.
That will suck more than baldness itself.
To borrow from ZZ~
"..each of these treatments should be able to work anywhere on the scalp, including the hairline" ~was my point.
I don't agree that I would not have enough donor hair. As it stands now, the side of my head is very thick. My brother has a similar hairline… and although he has limited coverage on the top at 38, he has plenty on the side. My Dad also has hair on the side but is bald on top. I have used rogaine for quite some time, and know from pictures, I'm doing better than both of them at the age of 30 which I am now.
The way I look at this issue is simple. I am severely thinning in the front. Although I want a full head of hair, I know I'd be very content right now with coverage in the front. You're right though, five years from now… will I need help in the back of my head? Absolutely. But, if none of these companies have anything by then what do I lose?
I mean… I just don't have the right shape of head for a shaved head. In some ways, I wish I did.
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread. I think this is a question a lot of us our considering actually. And although you all said this works on the hairline… I don't buy it completely. If these work, will they grow hair where the doc wants? Yes. But, can they control it in a straight line? I'm betting… No. So, cosmetially it most likely will be placed in the back of the head, which is great… cause it can still look better than bald… just brush forward. But, even Arista mentioned earlier in the thread these may be complimented with HT for the front, for a cosmetically accepted look.
So, why not HT now? Live comfortable and happy,.. and then wait it out for a few years? When it comes along, just get that treatment and you got a full head of hair. Just asking..
You didn't derail the thread Lurker. In my view this thread is primarily to discuss new treatments('The Big Four') BUT its also here for any questions related to hair loss. Most here know that i have been on a fence regarding HTs/FUEs. I was in the same boat,hair wise, at the age of 30 ,the diff is i never used any meds(none available at that time aside from prescription Rogaine which i didn't try) Im guessing that you still have coverage , its just the receding hairline at this time right? In my view you have time to wait it out but it IS an individual choice. "why not HT now? Live comfortable and happy,.. and then wait it out for a few years?" ~you make a good argument FOR.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~to note ARTISTA first coined the term "The Big Four" 5/11/10 lol
For the record. I'm not taunting anyone here, and I haven't actually written Follica off either. I simply want people to stop making excuses for this company. It's become abundantly clear their timelines were unsustainable, and perhaps even fabricated for unethical reasons (i.e. fundraising). I simply want our discussions to be weary of those possibilities.
Having said that — to make amends with everyone on this forum — I'm prepared to make the following statement: I, the most-awesome Adonis of phraseology, and kick-ass poster known as rev, do solemnly swear to refrain associating the facilitation or expulsion of fecal matter, noxious gases, or other vile mucus-like substances from one's posterior in reference to the good, honest, wholesome folks at Follica. I will consider a sabbatical to endeavor new ways of humiliating those deserving of humiliation without disturbing the sensibilities of the members on this forum.
HM, Hairlines & Lurker
It's true that hairlines are usually the first to go, AND the worst to respond to current treatments, but consider this…. if a transplanted hair graft can survive on a hairline area that was devoid of hair for an extended period of time than there's no reason why a future HM procedure won't have the same effect. oh and Lurker, I'm obliged to agree with Shooter, but it seems that you came here with your mind already made up. Good luck with your transplant. Clearly nothing we say will sway your opinion.
to Rev ~hahaahah WELL DONE my friend!!
Don't you agree that waiting is basically wagering on a concept that's been 5 years away for the past 20 years?
P.S. Sorry I'm just real frustrated. I thought something would be available by now.
Great post Rev!
In response to an email I sent to Tricho regarding the change in description of results from the old to new website. The new language is much more conservative.
"Thanks for the note — and for the keen interest.
The change in description has nothing to do with any recent testing. In fact we have had a number of delays and have now scheduled Stage I human clinical trials for September 2010. Until we have verifiable results from the human trials phase, we will likely limit any information and disclosure to what is now on the website."
I cant say that i blame them for being conservative at this point in the game. Fundamentally they need to be wouldn't you agree ZZ? So their date to begin is in Sept 2010 ,eh? Spring may have to share its title with Fall as the month of 'new beginnings' being that Histogen AND Tricho will be starting up their next phases,respectively. This is a very cool time. The ever expanding dimensions of medical science is just remarkable.
I guess there is no treatment in sight??? :(
Apparently you have not been keeping up with this thread have you K? Short answer is ,,yes there will be something that will appear on the horizon. Stick around.
K, in supplement to Artista's answer…I am currently looking into a hard top convertable.
@ K funny !
I noticed on Hairsite a post from a poster called SpanishDude about an interview with Dr Gail Naughton from Histogen, I'll put up the main points of information from the post just in cast the link to the interview doesn't show.
(Safety Trial: 25 patients, no adverse reactions. best results if no wounding, and no animal proteins.
Neogenesis+rejuvenation it seems (not sure)
hair numbers keep increasing after 12 months.
Phase I-II, Singapore, fall 2010, 50 patients, higher dose than in safety trial.
@12week endpoint –> start preparing phaseIII, 250 patients, 5-country pan-Asia.
Approval in Asia in 2.5 or 3 years
They hope it will work in women, and in any type of hairloss, including Alopecia Areata.)
Also there was a reply from Histogen to a comment on that interview link, I'll put up the question and reply for those interested.
Question from a poster called John.
"Histogen says the % change from Baseline to 1 year is +73.61%… but 179 hairs to 263 hairs is only a +47.21% increase, is it not?"
And the reply from Histogen.
Thank you for your comment. You are correct, the numbers shown in the slides do show a 47.21% increase (179 to 263) which represents the increase in total hair count. In reviewing the actual numbers in the clinical data, the 73.61% increase is actually the increase in the terminal hairs in that subject. So, the numbers on the slide are correct – however, they relate to two different parameters measured (Total Hair Count and Terminal Hair Count).
We also saw statistical significance in multiple efficacy endpoints including Total Hair Count, Terminal Hair Count, Thickness and Hair Thickness Density. Also measured were Velus hair count, rate of growth, etc. Thank you for your astute observation. I think you would agree that this is very exciting considering it was an injection at baseline only.
Dr. Hubka
Director of Clinical Affairs
Histogen, Inc.
wow thats impressive so the patients number of TOTAL NEW hairs went up from 179 – 263 off one single injection (Im assuming this is new TERMINAL hairs in one year on a small radius of scalp – AWESOME, but thats not the best part (even though 47.21% INCREASE in hairs is huge) The person in the picture is Balding which means he has alot of Velus hairs (Dying, MPB attacked Etc) on his scalp so there was a 26%ish increase in Velus hairs that rejuvinated into TERMINAL hairs, that is huge in my honest opinion.
Almost 100 new hair follicles off one single injection and awakening 30 – 40 velus hairs (if i read correctly) OFF 1 DOSE on a small area of scalp.
WOW OH WOW i cant wait for this trial to start if these results replicate or increase we will almost be cured in 3 years and they will be putting more injections in this phase 2 – 3 trials NOW IM EXCITED.
Thanks for putting that up here Ryan, it does sound good.
It's also good to see Histogen responding to people's queries.
I have been looking at all the recent information regarding Histogen and I am both excited and impressed. Dr Gail Naughton's interview on the bald truth radio program with Kobren was quite insightful. Dr Naughton is cautiously optimistic – not given to using hyperbole(and her optimism is fact-driven). Not much is discussed of the in-depth scientific aspect (the company is currently private) and is still soliciting class B funding – which I believe some Singapore business people are about to finance. The trials in Singapore is a good sign in regards to a generally very high standard of science there – Singapore, incidentally, is the absolute worst place you could go if you wanted to generate false information or results for your propective clients/business associates (if you doubt this then Google 'Singapore' and 'Corruption'). I think that if Histogen does do an IPO after the Singapore and Pan Asian trials – you should buy the stock.
If Histogen keep progressing without any problems, and are able to meet the target they have to get this to market. shouldn't this be putting the other companies under pressure to deliver.
I know they won't just quit because another company reaches market before them, but if this works and works well then there's a good chance a large percentage of potential customers will be gone by the time the other companies come out with something, you would think the thought of that would get them moving a bit quicker.
Just received this email last night from clinical trials for the Aderans Project in Los Angeles. I will keep you posted as to if I qualifiy as a candidate.
"Hi —–,
I just gave you a call at the number you had provided via ClinicalConnections.com:
I wanted to let you know that the Hair Transplant study just opened yesterday, if you are still interested, please give me a call so that we can see if you are qualified to participate.
Just quick follow up to my last post. I called Clinical Connections. Unfortunatley I do not qualify for the study. Since I have already had HT I am not a candidate at this time. I feel it is a good time for someone who has NOT had HT to call this company that is working with Aderans Phase 2 study, and see if they qualify for the study.
I would like to correct a missunderstanding in here. It was aprox. 40 INJECTIONS THAT HISTOGEN MADE TO GET THE RESULT. "Thank you for your interest and message. In response to your questions, within the pilot clinical trial of HSC subjects received 40.1cc injections in each treatment area (there were 4 treatment areas) at the baseline timepoint. The next clinical trial of HSC will further examine dosing and delivery, based on what we now know about the dispersion range."
Further evaluation will be needed to determine the effect of DHT following HSC treatment. However, the results from the pilot clinical trial indicated that hair growth continued (rather than declined) over time following the single treatment of HSC, with a statistically significant increase in hair count from baseline to one year."
( 4thHorseman) Hair Transplant study??? aderans??? Hair Trasnplant study???
Four 0.1cc injections in each treatment area over Four treatment areas would make for a total of 16 injections. Not 40.
still a good result in my eyes
thanks for the clarification Rev,,and yes its STILL a GOOOD result.
Hey Guys, just a little update. I'm going in on tuesday for my evaluation to participate in the clinical trials for the Aderans treatment. I got the call today, and they were asking me a ton of questions. Wish me luck..:)
Good luck Ritchie
Arista, I completely agree. Those are great results, and I particularly like Histogen's product because it's easy to administer by any healthcare practitioner (translation: quick market penetration upon regulatory approval). My only, genuine, concern is that lawsuit.
rev – I'm not sure if the lawsuit is 'real' or if it is a nuisance suit. The complainee is arguing that Histogen has engaged in patent infringement – but Histogen does not have a product on the market (so how can they have infringed?). The lawsuit came out right after the 1 year trial results were announced – which also resulted in the loss of new funding by N. American investors (fearing a lengthy legal problem) – hence Histogens new financial backers in Singapore and phase 2/3 trials in Asia. I think other companies – hot on the tail of Histogen – are engaging in dirty pool to slow the company down.
Like Washington I'm interested in what they meant by Hair Transplant study?
Ryan it is the same trial the Ritchie is going in for (Aderans). I was not a candidate due to previous HT procedures. They are calling it a "Hair Transplant Study".
Ritchie that's great news. Just promise you'll keep us in the loop if you get accepted!!
to Richie ~GOOD LUCK MY FRIEND~~ to add what Shooter had to say,, yes if it is possible for you to keep us updated ,,please do. My first thought though is that you will have to sign a patient confidentiality agreement. Hope not
May 10th Prudent Press Agency— Aderans Research Institute Inc. (ARI) this week presents an abstract at the prestigious Society of Investigative Dermatology (SID) at the society's annual meeting in Atlanta. The abstract—entered in the "Hair and Cutaneous Development" category—concerns hair follicle formation from cultured cells, and summarizes research conducted by a group of ARI researchers, including ARI research scientist Arben Nace, Executive Vice President Ken Washenik M.D., Ph.D., and Kurt Stenn M.D., Vice President Research and Chief Scientific Officer.
Entitled, "Common mechanism of hair follicle formation from dissociated trichogenic epidermal and dermal cells," the work investigates whether morphogenetic steps dissociated cells take to produce a hair follicle in a mouse are the same across all mammals. The study concludes, "that hair follicles form from dissociated cells in all mammals by one common, or universal, morphogenetic pathway."
"This abstract covers important ground in our research into follicle formation and activity," said Ken Washenik. "It is central to our efforts to develop a clinically viable answer to the challenge of hair regeneration."
All theses abstracts are good, but when is it going to give our hair back?
job position at anderans…
looking into surgical lasers and hair growth?
Interesting, r1ch.
I have no idea why they are looking for a laser specialist… it can't be relevant to their current study (because they couldn't apply any new research conducted within the next year to a protocol that is already finished with recruitment).
Maybe they are going to try and do some kinda Follica-type method as well? Who knows.
This thread has gone somewhat quiet. How is all holding up?
Arista its going pretty crappy!! NEED HAIR!!
I know J, i know. We are all in the same boat together my friend. The difference is that our boat is NOT going to sink. Believe it. I'm guessing that you are a younger man. You and others in your age bracket have a lot more to look forward too. That is not to say that us older cats that visit here will not experience something great,,we will.
Shooter dont be so sure. Remember its not what you know its what they choose to tell you.
People that hate Follica because of their lack of transparency need to take a good look at what other companies are telling you. Its business and thats just the way it works
Shooter & R1ch, I found an Aderans research publication from 2007 where they experimented with hair growth on pig skin that may explain the laser: "Since pig skin, like human skin, is at least 10 times thicker than mouse skin, we sought to implant cells at various levels within the dermis including the fat-dermis interface. This was accomplished by creating precisely dimensioned cavities with an erbium-YAG laser. Cells were combined with Matrigel™ (a surrogate extracellular matrix) and implanted at various depths.
The research article also touches on some of the difficulties they were having. This is old research and I am sure they have come a long way since then. If you are interested, you can read the article at http://bit.ly/aderans-hair-on-pigs
ZZ, I've read that research before. It's one of the reasons I have some faith in the Aderans process. Anything will grow on a mouse it seems, but knowing that a primitive version of the procedure works with 20% accuracy on pigs is a big deal.
I forgot about the laser aspect. Perhaps they are trying to optimize their delivery system for the second part of Phase 2.
When I talked to a representative to sign up for the procedure, she gave no indication that lasers were used (she just said the cells were implanted at very shallow depths) – but she also didn't have all of the specifics.
So, two things:
1) We really need someone to get in on the trials. Hopefully Ritchie's appointment goes well.
2) I hope that Aderans doesn't give up if the procedure isn't "optimal". Even a 20% effective procedure could be done once or twice, making everyone (even NW6s and NW7s) a candidate for a good hair transplant.
I agree. I think it might be part of the tweaking process. And a home run would be nice but, like you, I'll take anything that gets us to a next generation treatment asap. Once one of these companies reaches a minimum threshold there is no reason they can't head quickly for approval while they continue improving the process.
A few weeks ago some one posted something from Adreans, and they said the woman said" they are pretty sure it work"
i guess only time will tell
Jordan, yeah that was me. But the lady wasn't like an official with Aderans, just someone who worked at the testing facility. I hope she was right!
Sometimes little bits of 'off the cuff' information that we hear like that can be so very accurate in the long run. This is a great time for anticipations.
hi guys long time reader first time caller what ever happened the oracle that was R
I'm quite sure that R is reading this right now elcapian. R ,why dont you ring in on these subjects,,let us all know your alive and well?
R said hes not commenting or coming back here for at least a yr. he said he lost hope or something :(
I think you're right j, he did just get a bit tired of it all. I'm sure he said something at the time about him thinking there would be nothing available for years, there's been a few posters who have felt the same and haven't been back, Grommit and KKwilliams seem to have gone as well.
It's not surprising really, there was a lot of hope when the story first came out, and slowly but surely it dissapeared. I even remember R putting all that information about the University of Bonn research that seemed to indicate that they were on to something very big, but even they haven't been heard of since.
well we really need some positive info from someone.. this follica thing really has done a number on all of us…I mean they said in the begining that we would have something by now….what a serious kick in the ars to not have anything and then have them go silent! I understand from a business point of view but I would hope someone from the company would throw us a bone…Im sure they must be progressing pretty well though..I mean they hired a CEO whose job is to bring stuff to market, that tells me good things!!
The CEO thing seems like good news, but this industry is different than alot of other industries.
The science is what matters, not the marketing. No matter how good Mr. Ju is at commercializing products, he'll have nothing to work with if the science doesn't grow hair.
People know my position on Follica – they have nothing of practical use (for hair loss).
I just hope that Aderans, Histogen and TrichoScience can pull through.
In a post a week or so ago someone said Histogen just hired Dr. Hyma Gollamudi as Chief Business Officer. I was thinking this was a very positive indicator that they had recieved ample funding. Not a big deal but as it turns out, Dr. Gollamudi was hired back in December of 2008. I just ran across the press release on Histogen's website under archives in the news and events section.
ya but follica wouldnt even hire a ceo for marketing if they didnt have a proven product first!
and what about the company that was going to come out with something in asia in like 1yr?
ZZ – I read the same info re: Hyma Gollamudi and even researched her (I went as far as obtaining a copy of her Ohio State U thesis – "Policy Incentives to Prevent Introduction on Non-Indigenous Species Via Shipping"). Her background seems to be more geared towards enforcement ie: government agencies and compliance – she could be an asset, however, in re: the patent infringement lawsuit that Histogen is facing. In any case I am checking the progress of Histogen daily (I like what they have announced so far).
Hey JS,
Im still here :) just nothing to comment on imo. All we can do is wait. Aside from acell being used to possibly massively reduce scaring/replenish donor area(which it hasn't so far) I have NEVER been one to delude myself with this one or two year nonsense.
I dont understand how 1 article with little to no proven science get the masses to hop on the just around the corner hysterical roller-coaster. too much heartbreak imo.
I DONT see anything changing within the next 7-8 years. Just trackback through the posts. and you will find like 20 "cure" companies/drugs that have all flopped. the 5 years till cured has been reset like 8 times :)-
p.s cant believe Js mentioned me..hang in there man
Aderans LOL… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwA1ENqxI
Maverick druze,
Kakve su ovo zajebancije :)
Jel umeju oni ovo ili sta?
What is this? Can they do it or what?
Or they are just calling people to sign up for participation?
I consider myself optomistic but not too optomistic, I like to think reality though. In saying that I just dont see anyone in worst case scenerio taking longer than 5 yrs!
just my opinion and its what I think with all thats going on and sinse we havnt heard from the big F yet….I think 7-8yrs is unrealistic for SOME form of treatment!
R was full of crap, claimed he knew inside info, was friends with dr cots etc.
Only comapny i know that has flopped is ICX, we do have other companies working on this now, all in clinical trials. This is an exciting time for hairloss and the martket is huge!
The internet has been much benifit to us and is/pushing snakes oils and HTs out!
Just my personal feeling, we are about 3 – 5 years away
Jordan….good job!!! I agree!! Hopefully sooner though!!!! :)
Radi kurac, da radi imali bi love. Tko zna? mozda su toliko uvjereni da i proizvod valja da su vec poceli sa reklamama. :D
They believe in their product so they are sparing time for the commercials. :D
What's the chances of a Aderans / Follica merger?
Here's my rationale… please correct me if I'm wrong,…
-They are both centrally located in Philly
-Doc Cots is on boards of both
..I think Aderans may buy Follica down the line. Any chance I could be right?
Good to see you're still around KK, both you and Grommit's usernames stuck in my mind from when everyone first came here and I noticed it had been a long time since either of you had been posting.
I unfortunately think you're right about nothing changing for quite some time. It's looking like it will be years before we have anything which is really disappointing after all the original hope from Follica especially. It does look to me like they're still developing whatever they have, so it will be a long way off.
Im really dicouraged….are we ever gonna have some frekin hair?? I just want to go to my little sisters wedding and look like everyone remembers me!!!! :(
J, I totally understand you man. It's hard feeling like one person, but looking like someone else. Just try and keep your head up though. Be yourself, people will remember that more than anything else (even if we don't think they will).
First to market wins! But have to be safe. Hope it happends soon.
Anyone have feed back on PRP?
I dont think PRP was all together successful i think it worked on a limited amount of people from what ive read and needed to be reapplied every year or so so yeah i guess its at your own risk, check out Dr Greco website though if you would like to see more, he was like the pioneer of that field.
TheRealist, Anything is possible, especially with the connection you mentioned, but I get the sense that Aderans feels they are ahead and moving in on a treatment w/o Follica. However, having both types of treatments would make sense. It would give a company both an expensive and a relatively inexpensive treatment option. I was thinking about a similar merger but from a different angle. I was wondering if either Aderans or Tricho might consider buying Histogen with the thought of culturing their stem cells in Histogen's bioreactor. This too would give them 2 options of treatment levels. I suspect that whoever is first to market with a decent treatment might be able to buy any of these other companies at a much reduced price than they could get them for now. Nothing but speculation but I agree that we are 3-5 years away from a next generation treatment, but not a total cure. I also believe that we will see reliable evidence (pics) of what the next generation can do within the next 12-18 months. The wait is going to be painful but I find comfort in the thoughts that are shared here, even as we disagree from time to time. No matter what your perspective, you have to admit that we are on a new threshold and that disappointing timelines of the past 20 years have little bearing on our prospects for today. Come September, and for the first time ever, there will be at least 3 legitimate players in different stages of clinical testing. And with all of the tests that have been conducted to date, as far as I know there has yet to be even a hint of a safety concern.
I liked the explanandum ~"It's hard feeling like one person, but looking like someone else." It would be great if it were possible that a treatment would be available next year but that isn't a logical thought. Being discouraged isn't logical either, its emotional. A treatment is inevitable and it is NOT eons away.
Speaking of R,
Here is a link to a company recently found on R's favorite site regarding equol, a metabolite of soy isoflavones that is produced by the body. Only 30% of the population naturally produces equol. The company Bear Biotech appears to just be launching their site as it is not fully functional yet. There is much science behind the ability of equol to render DHT useless in the body…..but whether Bear's product can help the body produce equol is another story. I'm not endorsing this, just an FYI. You can probably buy the ingredients in this separately if you were interested. the site is at http://www.bearbiotech.com/
Ritchie, how did the evaluation go?
ZZ and everyone,
Beware… soy is a cancer causing agent. Do not load up on soy.
I for one did not know this and was taking soy isoflavones. Did it help with my hair? Maybe. But, did it grow gynecomastia? Yes!
Seriously, I've learned a lot about soy recently and it's relation to hormones and breast growth/cancer. Do not risk taking that product. I'd say take Propecia over an abundant amount of soy. Not that I would advise taking propecia to anyone.
Shooter, Thanks for checking in on me. I went for the evaluation yesterday, but was disqualified because my blood pressure reading was too high. It was 146/95, and normal is 120/80. They said that I should see my doctor first about getting my blood pressure under control, them maybe I could come back. I'm so bummed….
Sorry to hear that Ritchie. At least you tried though!
Were you able to learn anything about the procedure at all?
when the heck is that stupid conference that cotsorelis is going to speak at? and what if anything worth a crap are we going to hear? What is the next significant date are we waiting for? is there one? do we have absolutly no idea when Folllica is going to say something!!?? Im Pissed now….lol
I saw this patent for some kind of treatment from Elaine Fuchs posted on Hairsite.
It seems to be based on this research that was in the news in April.
Does anyone know if the patent was filed after that research was made public? someone asked on Hairsite and so far no one has answered, I'd be interested to know as well.
Has anyone heard about neo-graft?? Its a machine that takes follicles from the back of your head or from anywhere you have exceces hair and it gets place where your missing hair without no scares…
Ryan, that patent application seems to be dated 08-13-2009 so it looks like it was before the Leif Carlsson research came out.
Does anyone know if this latest breakthrough of the creation of a synthetic cell that has been all over the news today will help in anyway? It's being compared to the splitting of the atom in it's importance.
Lui, neograft is just a tool for assisting with FUE procedures. It DOES leave scarring (referred to as "white spotting"). Be wary of any doctor that tells you differently.
With the FDA being mentioned so much on these sites I thought some of you might find this article interesting.
WOW Jacob thats interesting…..and it even said that they dont tell anyone when some company is developing a certain product or device!!! So that means follica could very well be in trial stage or even in some sort of development stage!!!????
Good find, Jacob.
Hey JS i have been so excited about the synthetic cell creation. It is AMAZING. Already there are the ethical questions arising. My gosh,,this is the 21 century.
Yeah Artista,
except for little issue called hair loss.
We live in V century for that matter.
Now, tell me that they couldn't find the cure for hair loss right now if they want it to.
If this is the main question, scientists would find the cure in a half a year.
This is only a money making industry and they want to grab some money from investors.
When this become important issue, then we will have some results. Until then, NOTHING!
Don't get me wrong, I am just realistic.
Zarko!! did you not read what I just wrote!!?? READ IT!!!!
J, I have read it. Don't yell on me :)
But I don't think they are that far in the process. Last picture from them was that human skin on a mouse or what not and after that nothing.
I wanted to say this.
When scientists realize this as a social and emotional disease instead of a cosmetic, then they will do it right.
If they want, they could find a cure fairly easy. We can have a cure if the right people would work on it.
Until then, I don't see it within 5 years.
Hope I am wrong :)
I want a cure for hairloss as much as anyone, but can we be realistic here… this is not a fucking disease. Are wrinkles a disease? Is grey hair a disease? Come on, seriously. Cancer is a disease. Balding is not. Don't get me wrong, balding blows. It's horrible. But, it's not as horrible as cancer.
Let's say a collective prayer for people less fortunate than us. Karma works in weird ways folks.
Artista, I think it's great to see stuff like this happening, I'm just not sure if it can be put to use to help us. I heard the lead scientist Dr Craig Venter mention something about it being used for developing Vaccines much faster. So far that's the only thing they've mentioned for it's use in humans. I just hope that in some way it can help the scientists working on things like hair regeneration.
jay, I strongly disagree with you, hair loss is a disease imo, anything that makes an organ fail is a disease. I find it ridiculous for you to compare it to cancer, there are hundreds of diseases that aren't fatal that could be compared to hair loss including most auto immune diseases.
you are right but how many people are in the depression and you know where depression leads.
It leads to many very bad diseases. Sometimes even to suicides. I wouldn't go that far but it's possible. And, because it's not as horrible as cancer, it doesn't mean we never have to cure it. I am against their behaviors. Like on some fair. Trading with human misery and lying for money. This people don't have ethics at all.
Imagine if the cancer is at stake and this "doctors" tell these kinds of stories to the people.
Thanks for that link Jacob, It does like a company can perform trials in private then.
JS, I wasn't referring to the new 'cell creation' as it being another possibility in dealing with MPB. I can see how one might of read it that way. My apologies. I'm excited about the creation in medical and scientific terms only. It is amazing and it is yet another example of how far research has come AND is going. There may be more surprises in store my friends.
So how is everyone holding up? It is now a 'long' waiting game. I hope all is keeping a positive perspective on all that we have recently been informed of. There are also the upcoming ISHRS conference(s). I would imagine that a research company would not expose all that they are onto unless they feel secure but who knows..
I may be drinking the Follica Kool-aid but I still think they are far ahead of the competition. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Cots has an interest in Aderans & Follica. Adrerans just recently had a job advertisement for laser technican. I didn't see how many positions would be filled or where but to me it looks like another puzzle piece is being filled.
As we rapidly near the June conference I was wondering if the "knock your socks off" person would care to elaborate or still sticks to that comment.
I don't agree that it's a disease. Is aging a disease in your book? How can you logically try to act as though losing hair is so much different than getting wrinkles… or getting grey hair? I mean one can certainly argue that getting wrinkles or grey hair at an early age is not fun at all. In some cases, it could lead self-esteem issues. Why is balding that different?
Balding is cosmetic. It's not a disease.
That said, it sucks! I want a treatment just like you… but, I think some people here are so self-absorbed that they can't see how lucky they actually are. Let's say Joe Shmo is reading this thread regularly and is depressed about being bald. He curses the world because of it. I say to Joe Shmo,… atleast you don't have cancer. But, Joe can't even imagine that because he's so self obsessed. I don't blame Joe, I simply ask him to try his best to change his way of thinking.
Once again, maybe we could actually drop this self obsession for one day and all agree we'd love a treatment for balding, but for one day we are going to acknowledge that people are worse off then us.
Like I said before, doing that collectively may reverse some of the bad karma going on in this field.
Very well said Jay. As i have mentioned before,,we must all adjust and or adapt to our present condition with the educated knowledge in that there will be some form of viable treatment(s)in our collective future.I have NO doubts about that,,none.
I'm the knock your socks off guy and yes I still stand by that statement within the next year.
Refresh my memory on the 'knock the socks off' statement if you would Jschwa. Thanks
Jschwa, any announcements during the June conference as stated previously ?
Guys, jschwa has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. He has provided no evidence whatsoever to support his statement – it is pure speculation. Please don't give this guy any more attention. The "I know something you don't know" game is too tiresome to keep playing. Let's keep this board factual.
Jschwa keeps forgetting that 'trix are for kids'.
This is for you guys. Enjoy. :D The best part is at 4:39
Can someone tell me what that video Mavrick posted is about because my work has YouTube blocked.
It would be much appreciated. Thanks.
deluxe – it was an Iron Maiden video….4:39 depicts an artist rendition of a Egyption pyramid era scene.
Thanks TE.
If Histogen works at a minimal level, how effective do you guys think it would be for a someone between a Norwood II and IIA?
This is my case. And my hair is not as thick as it used to be all over the top also.
Oh right Shooter,,i now remember the 'socks off' period of time here.
Hi Deluxe, any answers to your particular question would be 100% speculative in nature my friend. The baseline dosages were very minimal for health and safety purposes. Now that they could show that it is safe AND that it DID spark hair growth (dormant follicles as well as newly spurred growth)Histogen's next phase in Singapore will include concentrated dosages over a wider scale. In time your questions will be answered.
i came across this earlier today,,any thoughts, comments?~~~~~~~~~~~
Drug Wakes Dormant Hair Follicles
With finding the gene that grows hair about year or two ago. This is also hopeful
Your not bald you just have a lot of dormant hair follicles that haven't been awakened yet. University of Michigan Medical Center researchers found that rubbing a cream containing the cancer-fighting drug tamoxifen on rats just one time activated dormant hair follicles and increased hair growth. Applying the drug repeatedly caused the rats to produce too much hair. The treatment worked only in mice that were genetically altered to create baldness. Bald men have dormant follicles-healthy but not producing hair. This research is exciting because it shows we may be able to wake up these dormant follicles(Genes Dev, 17: 1219-1224, 2003)
jay, what has ageing got to do with this and how can anyone with an ounce of sense compare getting wrinkles and going grey to people who lose their hair.
The definition of Disease in a dictionary is this.
"A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms."
The hair follicle is an organ, when people start to lose their hair and especially at a young age it is because that follicle is failing, it is caused by a genetic defect and is a disease.
Why do people use stupid arguments like there's always someone worse off, what has that got to do with anything? there are diseases that don't kill you but affect you cosmetically and hair loss is one of them. Some people have a genetic defect that makes them go blind but it doesn't kill them and apart from their sight they're perfectly healthy, so are you saying that isn't a disease as well. There's plenty of other similar diseases that don't kill you if you go look it up.
And lets not start calling people self absorbed, because if you weren't self absorbed you wouldn't be on here.
Good post Ryan I agree with you about this being a disease.
Artista, that University of Michigan research is from 2003. If we haven't heard anything more about it in seven years then it's likely that they have not been continuing the research.
I have just seen this posted on HairSite, it's a new patent from Dr Cotsarellis and seems to be different from the Follica one.
Can anyone on here enlighten us, is it seperate from Follica? or just an updated version.
I read through the patent quickly and discovered the following:
1) My suspicion that Follica is very far away from delivering a commercially viable treatment has been mostly confirmed. They haven't got the science all figured out – the human immune system is proving to be a real problem.
2) There is a segment at the top of the patent that says the government has some ownership of the technique. That is going to slow down development considerably (notwithstanding the fact that it makes for a great government conspiracy theory).
Shooter I saw your post on Hairsite, wasn't the immune system mentioned in the Follica patent? I thought there was something about it in there.
And I saw the government mentioned which is why I thought this might be a separate patent to the Follica one, maybe this has nothing to do with Follica, we know that Cotsarellis is still pursuing different treatments for various things at the University of Penn.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I have no clue what's going on (Thanks, Follica!!). I'm just saying what it looks like to me.
This could be completely separate from Follica… but it is certainly parallel research. I mean, is he planning on competing with them?
is he planning on competing with them?
That did cross my mind Shooter, I just don't know what to think any more about Follica or Cotsarellis, that patent does seem to be different from the Follica one though.
I don't know why you think this is different from Follica… to me, it looks like the same patent, except a different approach.
I would believe this is good news, actually. He's the creator, afterall.
Just ask yourself this, why would someone patent something if they don't think it works? Going through that paper-work is a pain in the ass… just look at that thing!
Cotsarellis works at a uni which means they tend to need to get grants to help fund thier research (usually from the government and government conspiracy is ridiculous)
and if he discovered this on his own then he will almost certainly patent it on his own (if he can afford it which he probably can). A company such as for argument sake follica or anderans might want to either buy or licence this intellectual property. From what i gather he is only on the advisory board of follica so its not their intellectual property what he does at penn state. we are also not sure what kind of agreement follica has with cotsarellis's original patents which follica is based on, most likely acquired by follica. With regards to how it is different it is basically just a supplement to the original follica patents saying FGF9 also stimulates hair growth via shh pathway (which is already known to grow hair but this is a novel way of activating the pathway hence the patent) i think the original patent only talks about FGF5 and 7. hope this helps xxx
Ol Georgey boy must look at this site and lauph to himself…..
I dont know why, just me but I feel optomistic and feel like they Follica is going to come out and say very good things….
Thanks, r1ch. Good analysis. (I was really just kidding about the gov't conspiracy theory)
I agree with Lurker and J. I don't think it's bad news by any means. It seems like he filed this patent in NOV 2009. It would be interesting if we could find out how long it generally takes for patents to be comercially available. Could someone find out?
Well, iwantsomehair, think about it like this. A patented procedure still hasn't started clinical trials. If clinical trials take between 5 and 10 years (longer if it's a new drug, which this is not) then we can reasonably expect to have at least 5-10 years before its available.
Don't forget the patent that Follica updated at the end of January this year.
I wouldn't know where to start trying to find out if this is the same method as the new patent that doesn't mention Follica though. I think the first patent for this treatment was in 2006, So I don't think it's a sign of anything good or bad really.
Not hair related but I saw this article earlier that is another example of regeneration research, it's only been in animals so far but it's another positive step.
that was a great article Ryan,,thanks
I hope we know what the hell is going on soon….I hope the conference tells us where and when things are going. I just hate not knowing what the hell is going on. I mean after the msnbc video I got all hyper and couldnt wait, and now here we are NOTHING!!!
J, I seriously doubt that we'll hear anything from that conference. From the abstracts we've seen it looks like nothing will be coming out about where these companies are in development.
WTF??? New generation of scams?
Nice post Mav.
"We would take probably three or four hairy follicular units, send that to the company and the company will make the clones for us and then we would transplant those clones back into the patient," Dr. Mizuguchi said.
Mizuguchi, the director of Manhattan's Hair Restoration Surgery Center, said they can make thousands of new hairs individually ready for transplantation.
"We do expect it to be on the market possibly within the next year or two," Dr. Mizuguchi said.
On the market within the NEXT YEAR OR TWO??
Dont know about that one.
So what do we take from this article? Cloning transplant treatment in 1 or 2 yrs?
what can we expect, what do you guys think?
do we know how the cloning field is doing as far coming to market progress??
Is this just BS??
It is just BS. The guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. I hate how at the beginning of every year some random doctor always has to come out and say that there'll be a cure in a year or two. They are always lying. Always.
why in the hell would the doctor lie???
or mabye its just his opinion??
He isn't lying. He just has no idea what he's talking about.
It sounds like he's describing Aderans/ TrichoScience since those companies will undoubtedly license their technology to reach the mass market. Aderans only has so many Bosley outlets, and neither Aderans or TrichoScience have the resources to aggressively expand their infrastructure to meet demand. It makes sense they manage the proprietary tech via their own hair culturing facilities, and leave the grunt work (front end sales, injections, etc) to the local heath-care practitioners (doctors office, plastic surgeons, etc…).
The timelines are utter BS however. Aderans might have something readily available within 5 years (if all goes well), but TrichoScience is quite a ways behind.
At least we are making progress, 10 years, we had nothing to lookforward to.
I know its a long wait
I would be cautious saying we're making progress. We are only "making progress" if the technologies in question end up working. Think about it: if we found out tomorrow that the Aderans procedure does not grow hair in humans as expected… we're right where we were 10 years ago. Probably in an even worse situation, tbh.
So basically we have nothing to look forward to?? your saying we have no chance of jack shit before 5yrs?? WTF??
and we dont know what the hell follica is doing??
whats our best case scenerio???
I think, at this point, it's worth being cautiously optimistic about Aderans and Histogen.
hey the guy on the news article might know more then we do, why is everyone shutting him down he might be the prophet that just gave us the piece of information we been looking for…………we got new technology lasers for Inflammation (Which can work depending on causes of hairloss) we got clonning which this doctor might know or be in with certain companies, we been given a timeline and a cost………..Maybe there is a company we are unaware crawling up maybe aderans is further then we think, i take it as a positive.
Honestly, I'd say the best thing to hope for at this point is that one of these small companies can releases something on the market that can compete with fin and min with few, if any, side effects.
When or if this happens it should help stir up some decent competition to attain better products. Until then I'd take the "1 or 2 years", "5 to 10 years", and "it's never going to happen" remarks about "the cure" with a grain of sand.
What happened to the topical Histogen were talking about releasing while we wait for their main treatment? I haven't heard anything about it since they first mentioned it. Have they shelved that Idea now?
Jacob – Histogen will begin their next phase in Asia this Fall.
I suspect Histogen will move onto the soluble version of HSC pending the success of their injectable. Perhaps they will test a soluble version at the same time, but that might be tough considering they're low on funds.
rev, they said in January they were planning on starting a trial within six months for the topical version. here's the part of the xconomy interview where they mentioned it.
"Histogen plans to begin two additional pilot trials of HSC as a topical treatment (with no injections below the skin) in the United States over the next six months. Dr. Craig Ziering, a Southern California hair transplant surgeon, will oversee the tests. Ziering, an osteopath who has offices in Beverly Hills, Newport Beach, La Jolla, Las Vegas, NV, and Salt Lake City, UT, also sits on Histogen's scientific advisory board. Naughton says one of the studies will apply HSC to transplanted hair follicles and is intended to test its suitability in preventing hair loss. The other U.S. study calls for applying HSC on scar tissue from previous hair transplant procedures."
oh sweet. thanks for pointing that out Jacob.
hmmm. I guess time will tell…
I liked cravin' shavin's comment.
No problem rev, although reading it again I may have jumped the gun in assuming it would be available before the other treatment. At the time I must have just thought they were doing a topical because it required less time to develop and they could get it to market sooner. But I'm not sure I was right now.
Like you say, time will tell.
WTF this is soo annoying!! I wish we just knew for sure if it was 1yr 2yr 5yr or something to have some sort of treatment!!
there must be one of those companies that can have some sort of treatment within 3yrs!!
Within 3 years is way too fast. Only when Phase III is entered by a company one MIGHT see a product that fast.
who is close to phase 3?
Dude seriously……if we are not gonna see anything within the next 3-4yrs then I am outa here and Im gonna forget about this site and a whole bunch of other plans I have…So see you guys in a shitload of yrs!!!!!! BYE!!!
p.s. :( !!!!!!!
Shooter how can you say we are no better or worse than ten years ago? Three companies are in clinical trails at this present time, and one of them
have already shown an increase in hair count.
I know we still have a wait:( but we are gettin closer.
It is clearly gettin to every one here, it's hard I know!
I don't understand why nobody here is discussing Gho's HST. Guys, if this works, it counts as a cure NOW.
Histogen might be available in 3 years in Asia. If you combine the two techniques, wouldn't you have close to a cure?
Our focus should be to try to get a reputable and talented Dr like Dr Jones in Toronto to test Gho's procedure. Dreaming about Follica won't solve any of our problems. Follica probably won't work at all because of all the immune system issues.
I know Gho's HST is expensive, but you can do it slowly over the years and have quite nice hair in a couple of years.
10 years ago we had nothing. So it really isn't that bad.
who said follica def had issues with immune system???
I thought nobody knew anything about follica??
Jordan, I didn't say we aren't better off than 10 years ago – I said if Aderans failed we aren't better off (in fact, we'd be worse off since we would have lost the biggest player in the market).
Tk, I know what you're saying with HST… but honestly, I think its another ACell. I just don't agree that the science works, it sounds way to "easy" to me. Gho has been doing this procedure for years and there hasn't been a single "wow" result. I just don't think it's as good as he's hyping (unfortunately). I hope I'm wrong, but who knows.
The issues with immune response and Follica have been mentionned in their later patent. The info is on Hairsite for anyone interested.
Why does it matter what we "think" about HST? If it works, it is a cure, pure and simple. It's very expensive, and time consuming, but a cure nonetheless. Why would it be too easy? Gho has been working on this for the last 10 years. Doesn't look easy to me.
My point is that instead of complaining that there is nothing that can be done, why not work to convince HT docs like Dr Jones to at least try HST, like some were willing to test Acell? If it works, then HT clinics will be swamped.
I would personally get it done in three years, or after Histogen is available in Asia and I've tested it. Histogen and HST could be an excellent combination.
This is not nothing guys. Perhaps if you're just waiting for a miracle treatment like Follica for under a grand. But for about 50 grands, you could have plenty of hair in a couple of years. Not cheap, but worth it for me, after all that hairloss has caused in my life.
So let's keep our chins up and start contacting those HT docs!
tk, that latest patent might have nothing to do with Follica as far as we know, they're not mentioned at all in it. Only Dr Cotsarellis's his research partner and the government are mentioned. And if you had read all the posts in that thread on Hairsite you would have noticed someone pointed out that.
"If anything, these quotes you posted from the patent are evidence, not that they're having trouble, but that they've pinpointed a critical biochemical component in the process i.e.. they understand the factors involved in growing mature hair follicles. The reasoning is this: if FGF-9 is a critical factor in hair growth (which their other experiments suggested) then removing that factor should inhibit the formation of a mature follicle. They ran experiments where they removed or inactivated FGF-9 and observed the effects on hair growth. Their experiments demonstrated: "anti-FGF-9 treated wounds were in immature stages of development" and "number of new follicles after reepithelization NS: not significant". This is exactly what you would expect to see if FGF-9 is important for growth. It reinforces their earlier experiments and is indicative that they're making progress."
I know that the patent is technically from Cotsarellis, but it's obviously connected to Follica. The point is that immune response will have to be controlled in order for any procedure to work.
The point is, Follica at this point is more of a pipe dream compared to HST and Histogen. So why not focus on finding out more about HST?
I'll write to Dr Jones this week-end if I have the time.
"There is huge potential in the market. Analysts estimate that a good baldness treatment could be worth [pounds sterling] 1billion a year in Britain and many times that worldwide. We aim to have the product on the market by 2010."
"Some time in the future, baldness will be a choice rather than something you have to suffer. Any bald people will have chosen to be bald."
I'm pretty hopefull that both Aderans and Histogen will bring something to the table. It may be a case that with both treatments we may have an acceptable result. Who knows about timelines though. Histogen look like they are going to try get around this with trials in singapore. this may mean that they do have something significant and wish to get it out there sooner rather than later. I hate saying it but time will tell all.
J… that is like… wow, super old news. ICX went out of business two years ago (and have since sold their assets to ARI). They never even had an acceptable product to market.
God bless our soldiers!! Home and abroad,,past and present.
shooter…sorry Im just not that up to speed.
this sucks!!
Amen J!
There's been a lot of angry and cynical comments made on many of the hair loss forums regarding companies who have failed to live up to the expectations regarding a cure or a product that treats hair loss.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the "big three" that people currently use to treat mpb, Propecia, Rogaine, and Nizoral, were all discovered to treat hair loss by accident. The hard work and dedication that current researchers put into developing a product that have shown results, such as Histogen's HSC, are really the first such cases where we have actively sought out to cure baldness and achieved varying success. If these people are off by 2 years, 5 years, 10, or 15, consider it a job well done.
I think it's also important to keep in mind that the people who put in the work and dedicate a substantial amount of their lives to this field don't owe you anything. If they say that they want to put out a product in 2015 and fail, they don't owe you an apology. If you think that they do then I'd ask you to take a look at your own life and see in what ways you spent trying to make an effort in improving the lives of others between now and in the year 2015.
I undertand hair loss can be hard to deal with but chastising the ones trying to help you won't help.
I dont think anyone thinks that the company owes us anything! Nor do I think we are chastising anyone! It really just comes down to this: any company that thinks they have a viable treatment and a viable time line to come to market?? I say to these companies this: DO NOT SAY ANYTHING!! I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ANY DAAMN TIMELINE OR YOUR OPINION AS TO WHEN YOU THINK IT WILL COME TO MARKET!! I ONLY WANT TO HEAR YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND HAVE A PRESS RELEASE ON MSNBC THE DAY BEFORE IT ACTUALLY IS BEING RELEASED!!!! SO I DONT HAVE TO GET EXCITED ONLY TO HEAR OHH IT WILL BE HERE IN ABOUT 3-5YRS OR SO…INSTEAD I WILL HERE OHH IT WILL BE RELEASED TOMORROW AT 8AM AT ALL OF THESE AVAILABLE LOCATIONS!!!
The reason Histogen and others are reporting results is to provide people with information that may inform them as to the research viability and to solicit funds – privately or otherwise – to finance their research. None of the research would be possible without the time, energy, and financial commitment of these individuals/companies (which is quite substantial with FDA approval and GMP practices observation) to bring a product to market. People on this site should remain positive – all the companies wish to succeed which would validate their efforts and greatly enhance them financially. Concerned parties herein might also think carefully about their own investment potential for companies that are either public or plan to become so. You could get your hair back and make a very lucrative return on your capital concurrently.
Here are some updates from Histogen….
Thanks for that link Mav'. This is a remarkable time in medical research. Hair issues aside,the ability to actually seed a matrix 'scaffold' with human cells to essentially grow a new esophagus for someone who had lost theirs due to cancer is,,,amazing. I like what 'cravin' had to add here. We should all use common sense barring emotion when educating ourselves here. You can drive yourself to an early grave thru stress.
Hey guys, I was wondering…
Does anyone know if alcohol consumption can lead to further shedding of hair? And another questions…would a men's 1 a day multi-vitamin be beneficial at all?
I am a propecia user and have maintained a descent amount of hair, however every once in a while I notice I lose hair and then it comes back…this time, it seems like it is taking longer… I'm not sure if there is some type of typical hair cycle? And is it generally the same for all people?
I know there are a lot of you on here who have experienced hair loss for much longer than I have so any help would be greatly appreciated here.
Hi All,
Just a little update relative to our concerns:
Delux, shedding does occur whilst on medication to fight hairloss, and also as your hairloss progresses the drug propecia will slowly begin to lose the battle, which is why people say it will maintain majority of your hair for 5 years +, if you very bad hairloss or are extremely unlucky propecia will slow down your hairloss but not stop it or not work at all, key is to stick to it.
ive read in places and forums that alcohol can increase hairloss but with things like that i take it with a grain of salt.
Robert Buderi 6/1/10 5:41 pm
Hi everyone,
Stay tuned. News coming real soon.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Nothing would make me happier if this "news" was follica related, AND if it made me look like a fool for picking on them.
Hey Rob!
You are awesome. Lol.
News people stay calm, its most likely the commencement of a trial or trial dates. If its Follica related that is!
Yeah, I'm honestly not expecting "good" or "bad" news.
I just think that the author of these Follica-related pieces is trying really hard to get us info and I appreciate that.
I agree with Shooter, I'm not expecting any stunning news, maybe it will be that they're finally going to start human trials.
Wow, good thing we weren't expecting anything. Thanks anyways, Robert.
Still no human testing then, LOL.
Yes indeed. Thanks Robert.
So that article basically states Follica lied about their previous funding; it makes you wonder what else they lied about.
Yeah, I forgot to thank this man, Robert.
Good job. Keep up with stories.
THANK YOU Robert! It's good to have someone like yourself who goes the extra mile to keep us informed. Seriously you rock!
so thats good news!! im happy to hear that!! but I guess we still dont know crap…
I love the hair industry, and its dodgy math.
January 04, 2008
$5,5M Series A Financing Round
August 12, 2008
$11M Series B Financing
Today – June 01, 2010
$7.5M Venture Financing
I counted $24M, but apparently somebody "exaggerate" the August 12, 2008 $11M figure. Who knows… maybe in another year and a half we'll get a press release stating how Follica lied about today's amount as well. All I can say is that I sincerely hope they're not using similar math during their research.
Unless Follica or any other company has a press release you'll never know exactly what they've accomplished. Even with a press release, you have to understand that any biotech would display the best result they had (in their best month, on their best day). Puretech or any other V.C. firm won't comment for a variety of reasons. The most important being that they simply will never have a deep understanding of the R&D beyond the basics they are given at board meetings.
I'm not stating this to be negative, it's simply the way biotechs operate. I know because I am in biotech. V.C.s are never going to take the time to learn a technology in detail. Often they simply don't have the background.
You can search and find patents related to Cotsarelis and obviously the tech. in his Nature paper is what Follica has taken a license to from U. of Pittsburgh. But that's old news and often a company will branch out from a fundamental technology based on new results in the lab. In that way you can have 2, 3, or 10 patents before a product goes to market – potentially more $$ for the company (e.g. in royalties) when you don't sell something that was patented letter for letter at a university.
Short term Follica's head of R&D or Cotsarelis himself (though unlikely to respond) could be asked if the company will be presenting in any major meetings in the near future. You could email Cotsarelis over and over. Of course he's bound by confidentiality agreements. You could email people in his lab and might get lucky. It would be shocking if ZERO help was given to this new biotech to get off the ground as far as protocols, etc. from the current lab.
That's about it for now. I could think about it more but unless it's a planned "leak" chances are that nothing new will come out unless it's in their web site or at a major meeting.
As a follow up I would say that emailing Cotsarelis wouldn't be a total waste. If you simply as the guy "where do I sign up for human trials" it's not like he'd be giving away technology by responding with answer. If he redirects you to his CEO or the person in R&D dealing with these issues then, again, it wouldn't be giving away trade secrets to give a solid answer on trials. My attitude is be proactive. There's way more likelihood of a response if an academic is getting calls and emails regarding the company. Much better than using a generic email posted on the Follica website, which is rarely logged into.
You are crazy if you don't think financing is a good sign. I also believe the recent patent is a good sign. I look at it this way, Dr. Cots would not have wasted time getting an additional patent if he didn't think it was monetarily beneficial down the line. Soon after, more financing comes in and we hear "investors are pleased". Somethings coming… maybe 2 3 years… but coming. I actually think their approach is the most scientific. Why exactly do they need to appease us with information? Why would they tip their hand to the competition? It doesn't make sense to do that, unless you are 99% there and getting ready for release. We all know that's not happening any time soon.
Than call me crazy.
You do realize Fraudica's also working on hair prevention and acne treatments… either of which could easily take priority over their hair growth treatment.
The funding, as Rev stated, is almost assuredly dedicated towards developing pipeline products for hair growth prevention and acne. These technologies will be easier to implement and will generate a quick return on investment.
Hair growth is a fool's errand, one Follica has clearly decided not to pursue.
They don't need to "appease" us, but they won't even state that their main goal is restoring hair growth… that doesn't sound like a company really committed to curing baldness.
No, but what is really twisted and bizarre about the whole things is that's what Follica originally claimed when they started their company up. That's why it's so infuriating that they intentionally mislead everyone just to get $. The thing is though they would certainly make more capital off from HM than they would hair removal… Though it is pretty obvious at this point they failed miserably to do just that. I would personally be upset not just as a consumer but especially If I were the one dishy out the cash to them. Regardless if they can bring in revenue VIA hair removal completely switching around your product like that is messed up especially when it's not even going to come close to the same profits. I mean think about how much their investors have poored into this. Maybe I'm wrong and their is big money in hair removal but I don't think so. The worst thing is that they won't even come out and admit that the blew it. After they literally built an empire of millions of dollars on this claim! Going around and essentially shouting off a roof top we will have the cure in just a couple of years. If someone did that with AIDS or cancer they would be crucified. Well for people with hair loss it's just as hurtful yet they continue to tease us w/ false hope, that's just sick. It wouldn't even be so bad if they would have just admitted they just simply weren't able to do it but I have a feeling they have known for a long time. Now they only tease people who are already in a lot of pain giving vague answers regarding the issue. I mean this is a deeply painful thing for a lot of people going through it. To say well we might have something to help people or we may not is really a all time low. When ever I think about them it's like a flood of negative thoughts. (Sorry about the last comment Robert I understand why you removed it, hopefully this one doesn't offend anyone.)
Sorry, when I go back and reread that I now see a few grammar errors and bad sentences. Whatever you guys get the point.
There's only one word that best describes a company that switched focus from a quick-to-market hairloss treatment to a hair removal product – SADISTIC!!
1.Psychiatry. gratification gained through causing pain or degradation to others.
2.any enjoyment in being cruel.
3.extreme cruelty.
Why don't we move the discussion to page Histogen-related? Fuk Follica tbh
I wonder if there are any elements for a lawsuit against Follica, Cotsarelis or someone else in that firm for deceiving the public, making false claims and causing mental pains. I mean if someone gets to pay big bucks for frauds like this one, that would be a good filter for all the other jokers playing with peoples emotions, time and money.
I've tried posting on similar threads before. Sometimes it's just to pass the time but I think it's because I love to talk shop. Though with lay people it's often like talking to VCs – ECHO, Echo, echo…..
Did I mention I'm in biotech? I've got my own company. I wonder if I posted a basic description of my company and pointed out one of our recent patents if the all knowing could tell me what I'm working on this week or what product we'll release this year. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Often what's available to the public is nowhere near up to speed on what's actually taking place at a research facility.
Like I posted already (this is where the echoing begins), if you want some information then one way to be proactive is to contact George Cotsarelis. You're not asking for trade secrets if you question him about when human tests would begin because you'd like to sign up (even if you don't wish to).
Two cover a few misconceptions that keep coming up – A) patents – as we in the business say, patent-shmatent. Unless you're cashing in you could have a million patents and they're useless. It's not uncommon to generate many patents to cover multiple 'leads', even if those leads do not pan out. If you can find a patent that work is already OLD since you've got preliminary work and then a year or two, or three, of provisional patent extension to buy time. Remember, every new patent/variation that removes you further away from your core technology dilutes out what you owe the university.
B) $$$ – 18M is not big money in biotech terms. Don't get me wrong, it's a respectable amount for a company NOT pursuing a therapy. However, if there are any trials involved it's pocket change. I can point out biotechs that that are doing well and doing poorly that began in the range of 10-50M of investment. You have to keep in mind places like Puretech could give out 100M dollars a year. And even that range doesn't place Puretch in the "big boys" category of VCs but average/OK. The idea is that maybe one in 10 of their investments pans out – in doing so they make a profit and compensate for money lost on other investments. Follica has not made money so Puretech has already lost $$….that they hope to get back and minimally another 3Xs that. That Follica got series B means they reached some milestones they set up for series A. OR they at least learned so much and have gotten that much close to their goal that the VCs figured it was worth the risk of another round was worth it.
C) Investors ALWAYS make press releases on what they've invested in. It's common sense. That is, unless your investor is completely private, say your friendly neighborhood billionaire. There have been press releases for my company and I think "wow, that is over simplifying" and even a little embarrassing. The press release
is GOING TO HAPPEN. A company can have a claim that they can make poop come out of your rear smell-free. If a VC group decides to fund such a company you WILL read about it in a press release. That in no way guarantees anything. Welcome to research. When James Watson was quoted on the front page of the New York Times in 1997 as stating that Judah Folkman would have a cure for cancer "in two years" now THAT was a f*** up (and retracted, I believe). But for Puretech and other investors to claim that their investment, Follica, "MAY" have a cure is pretty standard. And they DO believe it (I'd believe it before I gave somebody millions).
Back to getting on the taking action bandwagon – suing is possible. I can try to sue Follica simply because I don't like the name. Good luck to me. If anyone on the thread who is desperate enough to want to sue or physically hurt people because research didn't go as planned, I'd suggest redirecting that energy. Contact George Cotsarelis…. probably the best bet. Why waste time only venting or playing a guessing game?
what the hell happened? what did follica say? I read the article and they said they are very pleased with what is going on? did you guys read something else? why are you saying follica is changing focus or failed??!!!!!!
I saw this article posted on another forum about the latest fund raising, it's nothing really different from the xconomy one except Daphne Zohar is quoted as saying.
"A lot of these potential customers are wondering why Follica isn't saying more," Zohar said. Because it's in the development phase, it may seem like it's taking a while, she noted, "but things are moving quickly."
Yes, but what are they developing first? Is it a hairloss treatment, or one for hair removal?
Also, being in the development phase 2.5 years-in is a far cry from their original claims they'd bring a product to market in 4 years time.
Look, I'm not angry with delays; they're inevitable. It's the lies that I can't stand. 2.5 years ago I wanted Follica to treat us like adults; my offer still stands.
I think you are wrong to make such strong assumptions as to where this money is going. Maybe it is going to hair prevention, but maybe it's not. None of us no where this money is going so I think it's not beneficial to make such pronouncements.
Having said that, I think Follica needs a new PR strategy, not because I'm angry at them, but because of what they themselves promised some time ago. I don't see how an update hurts anyone, especially if their processes are under patent.
Can we expect anything from Cotsarleis at this Australian convention?
I believe part of our assumptions are based on these two references:
01 | – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
"Exactly how much progress Follica has made in developing a new hair-loss therapy, or whether baldness is the number-one target in its pipeline, Zohar wouldn't say.
Its technology, which is licensed from the University of Pennsylvania, could also be used to deliver permanent removal of unwanted hair."
02 | – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
UPENN "Hair growth prevention" clinical trial
Dr. Cotsarelis is the Director of the Hair and Scalp Clinic at UPENN
rev, that hair growth prevention trial is from the dermatology department, if it was anything to do with Cotsarellis and Follica don't you think they would do the testing under his supervision in the hair and scalp department? neither Cotsarellis or Follica are mentioned anywhere in connection with that trial.
And the quote I put up earlier suggests to me that she was talking about the hair loss treatment we're interested in, that's where all the interest is focused by these potential customers that are mentioned.
I'm not defending Follica, and as I've said before their handling of this has been a mess, but the reaction from this latest money raising round has been a bit over the top.
What did I post that was particularly unclear? I've had to tell investors, based on years of lab experience and preliminary results, that I'd have certain results in a few months and project out 2-3 years. The researchers at Follica aren't liars, they may just have been wrong. In biology we often say that if you estimate something will take 2-3 months it'll likely take a year or more. It sucks but is often the reality. And VCs are very understanding about all this and extremely patient. Right.
I guess I could wait until those doing the ranting are all tuckered out. If you want to be proactive and actually get current Follica updates, all the information posted in press releases, website, etc. etc. won't help a damn bit. Without having to think about it for more than a few seconds I know of biotechs that financially and technically have achieved a lot and had great press but are in a crisis now. I literally have friends and have had friends in such situations. You would never have known it based on anything available online.
Why not look up Cotsarelis' home address? It could be (don't hold me to this) that his bedroom window points towards Stonehenge and
that allows him to receive signals from the mother ship… oh no, wait, I am a scientist and deal with reality. I do this for a living and have stated as clearly as I can that unless you actually talk to someone affiliated with Follica you won't get any answers. Even if you do get answers they will be heavily biased but better than nothing.
"What did I post that was particularly unclear?"
"Unclear" is such a vague term. "Scatter-brained" seems more fitting.
"In biology we often say that if you estimate something will take 2-3 months it'll likely take a year or more."
So basically you're all chronic liars? Good to know.
"I guess I could wait until those doing the ranting are all tuckered out."
I'll take that challenge.
FYI. Believe it or not, but there's a clear distinction between a rant and an aggressive commitment to honesty.
One choice would be to argue with me and be declared the winner of the online Dweeb Olympics. A second, better option would be to maybe (just maybe) be to listen to the person who does translational research for a living.
The explanation on the timing of Follica's lack of a product on the market is simple — It's BIOLOGY, not physics. We don't even know all the components involved in one cell being different from another. That's why we can send a man to the moon but there's been no magic bullet for cancer. What I wrote holds true. There are NO guarantees in research. VCs invest just like any high risk investment you or I would make – with no guarantees. Some people claim real estate or gold is THE WAY to make $$$ five years from now. If they're wrong….?
Sometimes in biology, the exact opposite can occur. Example: At the first international embryonic stem cell meeting in 2003 researchers were referring to major breakthroughs as being 5, 10, 20 years away. Just a few years later.. bam, there's technology to turn just about any cell in the human body into a cell closely resembling an embryonic stem cell, without the use of embryos. Shocking…. and a great development but totally unexpected.
It's a reality that Follica could have been and still is really onto something. I do this for a living and am telling you that there's no way to guess from fragments of what the VCs post online. Go ahead and argue but it won't change things.
But again (and again, and again and again), who gives a f***? Write or call or telegraph the researchers who know the answers to at least some of the relevant questions.
Hey all,
seems follica isnt dead yet hu?! :P any chance we hear something official from it anytime soon?
and is Arista still comes here ?
Nexttime, your comments are very informative and interesting but the point is, after three years, the only thing we asked from Follica and after all their claims was a proof of concept! Theirs coumpounds and the way to deliver it is already approved so why all we have is silence and nothing else! does the protocol works or not and when they will be able to delever it!
Hi OS yes i am here. It is now a waiting game. Im not much for negative presumptions and i haven't much to say without any new news or facts at this point. My intuition tells me that we will see something discretely viable on the horizon.
Hairquest, my point has been over and over that it's biology and roadblocks arise. Contacting Cotsarelis is one (not the ONLY) best short term move to possibly (POSSIBLY) get some information. That's it. My suggestion, yet again, is to write Cotsarelis. You and others seem to think that I've never heard about investors or companies behaving unethically. And, that I should be shocked so much time has gone by after someone PROMISED there would be news. Look, we have Presidents who go back on their word. Fortunately for you, Cotsarelis is a bit more accessible than our Commander in Chief.
If we go back to what could, hypothetically, be happening then I'd say we'd be wasting time. If in fact people want to find a way to get solid answers vs telling me or simply announcing how they 'feel' about Follica. As the founder of a small biotech company who wrestles with IP issues I can easily go down the "what might be happening" route. I'm about to leave for work but I love to talk shop. So here goes.
Methods are all approved right? Says who? And when was it said? And those approved methods are FREELY available? The founders of Follica may found early on in series A that certain reagents/methods weren't as easy as they thought to take a license to. Also, greedy investors and researchers may not want to take a license to some of those "approved" methods. In that case it's 100% likely they would be willing to spend a year or two developing a totally new method that modifies just ONE PORTION of their technology. Should be simple right? Millions of dollars, maybe 1 or 2 or 3 SBIR grants you don't even know about, a million dollar lease line for fancy equipment. Should be a cake walk…. that mindset and greed and poor management is what sometimes does a wonderful job of killing a biotech. Pretty soon Follica's researchers are testing the use of refrigerator magnets to topically deliver drugs, the CEO doesn't want to look like a s***head and is buying his guys in the lab some time with the Board, the founders are big names who pop in 3-4 times a year for half hour (useless). A mess. Another, positive, scenario is that researchers at Follica managed to invent their way around the IP they didn't want to take a license to and succeeded… then stepped back and said "hmm, good job. Now let's get back to that growing hair protocol!" They're doing just fine but the science timeline isn't what they originally PROJECTED (not guaranteed).
That's the lesson of the day. I love to talk shop but not if it doesn't sink in. Biotech and VC claims made in year one are not to be taken as written in stone. With the high degree of uncertainty in all research things can change and projections get quashed. I personally hate cancer and that's why I'll be in the lab today, and tomorrow and so on. Some of my best projections built on solid data have been scrapped. If you hate Follica's lack of information sharing don't just vent about it or try to tell me how unfair it is. Take some action.
Nexttime, i don't put a political man and a scientist in the same boat in terms of words and promises but it seem's that Obama has an advantage on Cotsarelis is doing what he claims, it's true that i am disapointed by the lack of transparency and informations from Follica. The proof of concept does not need to buy a licence, you do it, present it and after you think about a way to replace it if the investors ask it, don't you think? for the rest you're absolutely right about Cotsarelis!as for the methods it was Zohar for the presentation of this new concept. Anyway i would like your opinion about their strategy, you are biotech, don't you?
nexttime, people have tried to get information from Dr Cotsarelis and he won't say anything.
Nexttime, I take great offense when people categorize our genuine concerns as mere rants.
I, myself, had a contact with PureTech Ventures back in 2008….. until her emails started getting directed to Scott Kellogg (who merely sent me a cut-and-paste response from their auto-responder). I contacted the Clinical Unit for Research Trials in Skin at the Massachusetts General Hospital around the same time, but they didn't provide any answers either.
Others tried to contact Dr Cotsarelis directly. There was, in fact, a lady from a women's hairloss forum that made an appointment to see him. Despite her best, most subtle, efforts she left the office with even more questions.
Daphne Zohar is (or perhaps was) an editorial advisor to Xconomy, yet Robert Buderi (Xconomy's founder, CEO) can't get a straight answer from her regarding the simplest question – "how's it going?"
So, please, don't imply we're not pro-active. I would also ask you don't accuse us of ranting without cause (it just makes you look like a ranter yourself). To the best of my knowledge, your biotech is unlike Follica's. You didn't go on NBC to brag about timelines, and you didn't post that article on your website with pride (leaving it on your site to this very day). You didn't have your Venture Capitalists brag about quick-to-market timelines on xconomy… only to fall off of the face of the earth… perhaps even switch their focus to hair removal techniques. It would be comparable if your biotech switched from curing cancer to causing it.
If you want model examples of biotechs that are conducting their studies in an ethical manor than I suggest you look to Aderans and Histogen.
That about covers it rev,nexttime if you had been around on here since the first article appeared you would have seen the amount of people who have tried to get some information about this, and that's just this place, there are many more websites out there where others have tried to contact them for some idea of what was going on but both Follica and Dr Cotsarelis have been silent.
And like rev said Aderans and Histogen don't seem to have a problem replying to people in an adult manner.
hi, test
having trouble with posts here
Yes, I am in biotech. The proof of concept was done some time ago, it was the original Nature paper published by Cotsarelis "Wnt-dependent de novo hair follicle regeneration in adult mouse skin after wounding."
To get funding from VCs you need a few things like A) a great concept and B) preliminary work C) business plan and D) track record. All of these can vary greatly but of course if you are doing well in all categories funding is much more likely. Cotsarelis may have zero track record of founding successful companies but he's obviously got a sufficient # of publications, experience, awards (as an investigator, grants, etc.). If a few of Cotsarelis' friends/cofounders had biotech experience that would have helped. Still, for Cotsarelis that still may not have been enough since he really lacked biotech experience. However, that could have been far outweighed by his Nature paper – the Nature paper told the VCs that Cotsarelis had already completed some major preliminary work, likely had some detailed patent in place, and that some world famous biologists reviewed his work and gave it an A+.
You have to present a time line to investors. What are your milestones? For example, Milestone #1 could be repeat wounding results with human skin grafted onto an immunocompromised mouse within the first 3-4 months post –funding. The VCs then have their relevant partners review your work – e.g. Zohar gives it to one of the VCs with an M.D. and background in skin grafting to see if the science is kosher. And she another V.C. who knows the market for skin products check Cotsarelis' work. On top of that the VC firm can bring in their outside talent (e.g. someone who spent 10 years helping to develop propecia) to further see if there's a "wow factor." In the end it may boil down to just one senior VC (Zohar) whose imagination is captured by Cotsarelis' work and who puts the work over the top with the investors… as long as Cotsarelis doesn't show up to present his work to the partners wearing a tuxedo t-shirt he's all set. And the work really does have to do fairly well with outside reviewers the VCs hand Cotsarelis' written proposal to.
That's it, a pretty standard route for getting a biotech going. But it doesn't matter. Unforeseen issues arise once lab work begins. Once a company is up and running they own no explanation, public announcement, etc. to anyone. VCs invested in my company have said we'll find anticancer drugs but if my work in lab goes to hell that's it…. It'll die off and you won't hear about it. If we succeed you'll hear about it. Maybe Follica should have issued a brief but lame press release but these are VCs (or idiots with money as I call them). Cotsarelis and his university got positive press from the Nature paper alone. But enough of that, we could also sit here for years ranting about Follica and how things "should have been done" or should be done in the future. From what I gather this whole thread has been about, and hopefully will continue to be about, is getting information about Follica's progress. So here we go again – CONTACT COTSARELIS.
Rev, JS – OK, have you written or called George Cotsarelis? My concern, never really knowing who posts online, is that someone genuinely struggling with hair loss but immature in personality and/or career shoots a researcher an along the line of "hey, can you tell me when I can expect a cure?" I wouldn't answer such an email and I'm patient enough to deal with posts on here.
JS – I have no idea what those "people" wrote him, if they wrote him from a 'special' email like "firstname.lastname@example.com" or "firstname.lastname@example.com" which I'd expect wouldn't have even been read. There is always a way to approach these things. When email fails you can go to phone. Go with email first but remember that presenting yourself well goes a long way. That can be difficult because with PIs in academia brevity is the key since they receive a ton of emails. I've only talked to George Cotsarelis once and that was years ago. I was still in academia and wanted to talk to him about a reagent I was generating in the lab, and if it could be tested in a model system he had developed. He was pretty level headed and open about what methods were easily reproducible from an older publication of his.
Rev – throw what you think as ethical out the window. There have been about a dozen successful biotechs (successful defined as remaining independent and generating a large amount of $$ from retail sales) out of hundreds and hundreds that have been founded over the years. All of them were hyped at one point or another. Cotsarelis like ANY professor in academia will talk about 'potential' and enjoy interviews. Look at the converse – when recombinant DNA technology was in its infancy there was talk of mad science run amok and science fiction type garbage. You could eat most experiments from a genetic engineering lab and never be the worse for it (though it might taste bad). VCs want to show off what they invested in. And just take a second and THINK about it – VC funds exist because people, like myself, have inventions that are HIGH RISK (OK, let's say medium risk)
So yeah, Histogen (have no idea about them) might have delivered but I'd say for any biotech that's being damn lucky to some degree. I would go as far as to say that ANY biotech, with tech. licensed from a big name university, with the best and brightest minds, etc. should not be taken seriously until a product is revealed and proven to work. Anything prior is just hype. Not because we're compulsive liars but because it is, as I've posted, BIOLOGY. Is a biotech a pizza place? NO. Is a biotech an auto body shop? Those type of businesses can get bank loans, because they produce a product that is cut and dry. Biotechs go to VCs because they are super risky and CAN'T get bank loans. I'd rather have a bank loan for 10 million and keep all the founders shares than to go to VC and basically give up 55-75% of the company. So, along those lines I'd say that in the future it'd be best for anyone to say "hmm, interesting" but to be skeptical about 100% of biotechs, regardless of the claims, even if the founder is a family friend. It's not that we're dishonest but for the LAST time we hope for the best and often find we eat our words on down the road. Trust me, I remember instances in academia 15 years ago with two Ph.D.s fighting over who'd be first author on a paper and after ruining a friendship, creating a toxic work environment, etc. the project turned out to be a giant piece of crap. It's BIOLOGY. I haven't seen any recent statements by Cotsarelis. So enough about what he said a few years ago. In 2008 he was quoted as saying it would take years. The VCs funding Cotsarelis will say ++++ things until the bitter end…but trust me, VCs are idiots. At least that seems to be the consensus between myself and any smart friends I have in biotech (and I have a few). I laughed (sorry) when contacting Zohar was mentioned. VCs are the last ones to contact.
I hate to point out the obvious, but proof-of-concept on mice is not the same as proof-of-concept on humans.
edit: I made my comment before you appended your post with a chapter of War and Peace (a 1400page book). I didn't read it… not sure if I want to either.
Thanks, I should take company tips from you sometime. Really? It's not the same? B-b-but, are you sure? Yes, I answered a question regarding Follica's funding. The mouse work was the basic proof of concept necessary for Cotsarelis to get funding by VCs. If he had completed work in humans he likely wouldn't have the need for VCs and the university would be sitting on billions of dollars from Merck.
Yup. I'm fairly certain mice and men have their differences.
For one, anything grows hair on mice. Secondly, mice can't do taxes. I'm sure there are other differences, but I can't think of them at the moment. I'll post them here when they come to me. Fair enough?
If you read it, you learn from someone in the business. If you don't, you don't.
For most of us, the frustration is the lack of information from Follica or Cotsarelis. Given the rosy scenario painted three years ago, I would have thought some sort of scientific update would have been issued by now.
Having said that, I don't feel Follica owes me anything. Their silence could mean many things, but hairloss suffers seem to have a desire to see the worst outcome whenever possible. Some even act like jilted lovers.
The fact Follica can continue to raise money is promising, but $18 million or whatever the amount is just a mere drop in the bucket. That dollar amount tells me a practical solution is a long way off. I know trials can be conducted with little or no fanfare, but not on the money publicly raised by Follica so far.
If nothing else, I just wish someone would come out with the next generation of propecia or rogaine just to tide us over. My goodness, it's been 12 years since propecia.
You are 100% right in that Follica owes nothing. Research, inventing, those are my passions. I know my profession well and could speculate as to what's going on…but that was the whole problem with posts on this thread. Read all my posts on here if you can to get a better insight into how risky biotechs are.
18M, as I've posted, is a respectable amount but not enough for the classical Phase I, II, etc trials. But that isn't really relevant for the current 'successful' model for biotechs or for Follica't current stage of funding.
Looking forward on Follica – either put them out of your mind and don't think about it until you hear your doctor prescribing a Follica treatment… or contact George Cotsarelis.
You keep telling us to contact Dr Cotsarelis (like a broken record). We've been there and done that – He hasn't said a thing (since 2008).
I would be obliged to agree Follica owes us nothing if only they kept their mouths shut 2.5 years ago… if only they didn't go on NBC to brag about their quick-to-market product… if only they didn't highlight that piece on their website (to this very day)…. if only their VCs didn't go to the PUBLIC to brag how they could circumnavigate FDA approval.
BUT they did all that. To paraphrase someone from another forum, there was another company that played a similar game of dodgeball with us – they gave us good news without any facts – that company was InterCytex.
There will be a 6th World Congress for Hair Research in Australia, this Congress only Happens in 3 to 3 years, Dr. Cotsarelis will make a conference, maybe we have some news about Follica, or from others company's that are developing hair loss treatments to…
Holy s***, the perpetual whining has to stop. Rev, are you still in denial that Obama won the election? GET OVER IT. Otherwise leave this thread so that others can discuss the business of biotech, and to proceed if they're serious about getting more information.
I've already given an overview of some of the major aspects involved in founding a biotech. Biotechs are HIGH RISK ventures. If you want to believe what they say on week #1, good luck. Do you also believe the guys on TV who say to convert most of your saving to gold??? HIGH RISK. There are other people on other forums (I'm sure) having the same conversations about other biotechs involved in finding cures for deadly illnesses. Company employees and investors want the best but often fail. It's biotech, and it's high risk.
Yes, I saw your laundry list of who was contacted. I assume you had someone in research and/or biotech reviewing the content before sending? There is definitely away to approach this and writing about what was or wasn't done 2+ years ago isn't going to achieve anything.
Reread my posts and get ready to contact Cotsarelis. That would be the most productive.
You are such a narcissist. You keep trivializing our comments, yet you keep insisting we "reread" your posts.
Next time your car breaks down you can refuse to listen to your mechanic and go on and on about the fact that car company X really let you down. I'm sure your mechanic will accommodate. Or share your complaints about Follica with guys laying bricks in 90F weather all day, I'm sure they'll agree you got a tough break.
If you want to keep trolling around this thread then you've proven you had no intention about being proactive. Just patiently waiting until someone asks a question about Follica and responding with a million complaints. So…. you want to keep posting on a Follica thread but you don't want anyone to attempt to contact Cotsarelis UNDER the advice of someone in biotech who could better handle the situation?
Yes, I would advise anyone new or old to this thread to reread my posts (2-3Xs would be best). I am in biotech and, lucky for you, I don't charge $300-500 an hour like many lawyers would for taking time to advise.
To sum it all up — go ahead and be bitter. I really don't see what you've done to be productive other than whine and complain. Apparently that's your game plan. You'll become the most famous troll of them all and then Follica will hear about you and expose all their trade secrets (ooohh ho ho, I used the "F" word again.. just gave you an in to trrrroll away). Damn, I wouldn't even hire you as an intern to pour bacterial plates.
Anyone on this thread serious about potentially getting some basic, non-confidential info on Follica please let me know.
I've been proactive to the best of my abilities; I have a folder of correspondence from various biotechs that proves it, but you've chosen to ignore it in favor of your sage wisdom, so here's my proposal: since you claim to speak "biotech" than why don't YOU put your money where your mouth is, and why don't YOU contact Dr Cotsarelis for some answers yourself.
It's bound to beat writing those bloated posts that are vastly dedicated to accusing me of being a ranter, whiner, and troll.
Wow, semicolon.
This thread is about getting information about Follica. Your postings are what's to be expected by the desperate. On top of that the arrogance it takes to argue with someone who has a Ph.D. in a field you don't is what makes you special. Nothing but whining and hypothesizing what might possibly potentially kinda maybe be happening based on how someone from Puretech winked at you (or winked at someone on another thread you troll).
I've already posted that I have talked to George Cotsarelis (maybe 5 years ago?) about an unrelated technology. I was still in academia at the time and was considering a collaboration. Bottom line is that would be odd for me to gain information from him and then post it online. In that case he/his associates would know the information came from me and it would be breaking the trust (in his eyes, not mine)… and I may need access to his reagents in the future. Second, since I've made the transition to biotech George is much more likely to be extra cautious – even some of my best friends in biotech and I do all we can to NOT exchange technical info, casual or not. But I must admit, it's a great suggestion. I would never have thought of using email.. I barely even know how to operate The Email.
Originally (starting to regret it) I thought it would be easier to work along with one or two individuals on here. That being said, YOU should NOT write Cotsarelis. Both from the point of view of lacking diplomacy skills as well as the fact that I've concluded that a cure would be counterproductive for you. Baldness can only help you. It's basically an out for individuals you've met who would like to avoid you rather than go through a laundry list of shitty qualities. Stay bald.
For any sane individuals who want to take me up on the offer of getting in touch with Cotsarelis in a smart way the offer will stand for a while longer. No promises and it's fine if the information is not shared beyond a few individuals. Thanks.
nexttime – "On top of that the arrogance it takes to argue with someone who has a Ph.D. in a field you don't is what makes you special."
me – At least I'm not a narcissist.
nexttime -"I've already posted that I have talked to George Cotsarelis (maybe 5 years ago?) about an unrelated technology."
me – Good, so it won't be too difficult for you to stop arguing with me, call up George, and get us some answers. Well that was easy; I'm glad we had this conversation.
nexttime -"George is much more likely to be extra cautious – even some of my best friends in biotech and I do all we can to NOT exchange technical info"
me – Wait? What? So after repeatedly telling us to contact George you're now telling us he won't talk to us? Isn't that what I said all along.
nexttime -"For any sane individuals who want to take me up on the offer of getting in touch with Cotsarelis in a smart way the offer will stand for a while longer."
me – I love limited time offers. That's how I bought my Shamwows, and Ronco Food Dehydrator.
HEY GUYS!! Are you kidding me with all the back and forth BS!!! STOP IT!! Lets just focus on figuring out what the hell is going on…either work together or dont! this place is for updates of the latest news and anything else that will help us figure out exactly what the heck is and when a sufficient treatment is going to come to market so we may get on w our lives….
Nexttime claims to know Dr Cotsarelis. I suggested he contact Cotsarelis for some updates; unfortunately, he rather call me names than do anything of the sort.
Yes it's all becoming slightly weird, if I hadn't been on here for a while I'd swear nexttime had some kind of history with rev, I can't think of any other reason to target him like that, rev was only saying what we all have, that many people have tried to get in touch with Cotsarelis but he isn't talking about Follica.
In fact I think it was shooter who talked to him through the University of Penn and asked him if they had started human trials yet, and the only answer Cotsarelis gave was to tell him to look on the Follica website for information.
This bickering is nonsense. Rev, is pissed off, and while he definitely has a point (follica making ridiculous timeline projections) he's now jumping to unfounded conclusions about the company and where their research is headed. There is no more info out there, other than they recieved more money (which is without question, a good thing) than there was before. There is absolutely nothing hinted at, implied or any secretly decoded message in the press release that says they're abandoning a hair growth treatment. The author of the article phrased the sentence to say that zohar was not forthcoming about what's going on or "even if" (those are the AUTHORS words not follica or Zohar) hair growth is thier main target. Which is what everyone got all hysterical about and started doomsaying the whole thing. It's all a bunch of baseless speculation.
As for nexttime, his arguments about biotech timelines being unpredictable are valid, but, he doesn't seem to have a good grasp of intellectual property issues. If he did, he would know that Costarelis is on the board of scientific advisors for Follica and is legally constrained from saying anything regarding the company's business. It's called a Non-disclosure agreement and is pro forma for any company that wants to protect their intellectual property. You work with or for that company, you sign that non disclosure agreement and are bound to it with threat of legal action if you violate it. For him to suggest contacting Costarelis as way of finding out what's going on, is flatout ridiculous. Do not contact Costarelis, he will tell you nothing, as will Zohar or anybody else involved. You'll know something when the company is good and ready to say it – there will be a press release and i'm sure it will be well publicized.
lol lol
Thanks for the thoughts on IP issues. And all this time I thought my swearing to God I wouldn't tell any secrets was sufficient.
I did NOT say Cotsarelis would give the whine factory explicit scientific details. Getting information, for example, such as where to sign up for trials is realistic. But I guess some creepy internet dudes contacted him… so? I've had phone calls asking me when my company would have a product and I chose not to answer. In my case I didn't want to be bothered and focus on work rather than answer general questions about anticancer drug development. Even if I answered it would be nothing a friggin VC would ever hold against me. Quite simply because I know what would and would not harm the company. I (AND individuals on my advisory board) have talked in very general terms about timelines with individuals not affiliated with the company. As far as I can tell, there isn't a clear picture on Follica's time lines. Though people on this thread want to whine about ethics and what 'promises' were made years ago.
Ryan, you seem level headed. I really don't want an endless set of bullshit posts. Big picture – if you read my posts I stated (confidently, I think) that biotech is upredictable and why timelines can vary. And that there's a way to approach this but also with no guarantees (as with anything in life). For some reason, on this thread, people keep posting that Follica is unethical, we all deserve an answer and so on. Again, big picture, this is what I do for a living. I really don't care if Follica's time line is way the hell off but I am a bit curious as to where it currently stands.
Regarding Puretech – the VCs, at best, hear's about Follica's progress once every 8-10 weeks or so. And even then it's unlikely they have a deep understanding of the work. AND they are too stupid (VCs typically are) to really distinguish between what information is really safe or not safe to discuss. That's why they'll have us 'sanitize' their required press releases. It's like asking a secretary about what constitutes a breach of Dr.-patient confidentiality. He or she wouldn't know…. so by default he'd/she'd know enough to shut up about everything. Cotsarelis on the other hand, could answer one or two very general questions. As a founder/part owner and an advisor he'll know where to draw the line. He is in the position of knowing what does and does not constitute giving away trade secrets.
OK, so who's ready to get to work?
I might be some "creepy internet dude" that came fresh from the "whine factory", but I still think my original suggestion was valid:
Since you claim to have-had a rapport with Cotsarelis, and since you take great pride in speaking "biotech" than it stands to reason that you should be the one that contacts him for information.
This is very entertaining, especially whilst we wait for news sooo um keep it up ya know
I never singled you out but if the shoe fits…
Not that I owe you an explanation but,yes, I have discussed a technology I was developing with Cotsarelis. This is not uncommon in academia and researchers will often give semi-confidential descriptions (over the phone) of new tech. concepts without a 2-way CDA. That being said, I already discussed why it would not be wise for me to go and contact him now. But that doesn't mean I can't work with someone else who can be the contact. That's my proposal – and as long as you're specifically NOT involved there's a chance some new information could be obtained.
So who's ready to work on this? I won't post anymore and let the thread go until Saturday. If no positive responses by then I'll go back to one of my contacts in academia to work this out. Not my favorite option and that's why I was hoping to work something out here.
'A' is special – he pumps his fist 'whilst' he farts. LOL. Oh, and before I forget. LOL
OK, Saturday then.
Nexttime – Have you had an opportunity to look at the Histogen profile and their clinical trial in Honduras (with round II to continue in Singapore)? Dr. Gail Naughton believes that wnt proteins play an important role in the hair regenerative properties of the conditioned medium. Their initial results look very promising.
Let's give nexttime a chance to materialize something of substance regarding Follica before we ask him about Histogen. We don't need another R on this forum.
We already have another R, i mean nextime is a complete tosser? so doesnt that mean he has hit R levels.
Come on guys, lets give nexttime a chance. Nexttime give us some updates from your sources from those academic sources and then we will comment.
Are you all like 12 years old or something? Seriously, grow up.
Hey all. Two things.
1. Nexttime, what brings you to this article as opposed to others? And what are you plans if we all decide to work together?
2. We should talk a little bit more about Histogen as they seem to have made the most progress as far as we can see. If their HSC product works all over the head in a controlled manner, and if the treatment can be performed over and over until you achieve the results you desire, how incredible would that be?
I know we will only know the result once they are concluded early spring of 2011, but what do you guys think? Do you think that our scalp is capable of reacting more than once to the HSC serum?
nexttime, your "not farorite option" seems to be the best for all of us and if you can lead what you propose to do, it will be greatly appreciate.
Histogen is going to be our way to a treatment I think…just not in the US, I could care less cause im on first plane to get my treatment!!!!
nexttime, please show us some evidence? I think it safe to say that baldmen are tired of random people making bold claims.
Histogen says they will most likely offer a treatment outside the US befor 5yrs
so what the latest news then guys?
Jordan, the latest news seems to be that Follica have got a little more funding but we still haven't got a clue about whether they've done any testing on humans. That's when everything became a bit bizarre on here, people are obviously disappointed that Follica aren't giving us anything to tell us where they're up to with their development, oh yes nexttime says he's involved with biotech and has a phd.
Last news about follica:
Last news about Follica :
serg, that interview with Daphne Zohar is 2 years old. It was originally posted on a website called brightcove.tv.
Thanks rev, i didn't know, sorry
I enjoy nexttimes psosts.
His tone cane be abrasive but frankly some posters here need a severe dose of reality.
He reminds me of R who used to give great advice to posters and tried to put hairloss in some sort of perspective. Unfortunately all he got was whined at by the sort of posters so miserable that hairloss really isnt their real problem.
Cue abuse….
Blair, what you see as abrasive I personally see as unnecessarily condescending. People don't come on here for advice on how they should be coping with their life, they come here to hear about the possibility of a new treatment, if someone's got some information that can be useful to us then by all means share it and spare us the pseudo-intellectual bullshit.
R was full of it as well, he was convinced a treatment was going to be coming out within a year or two, the more the painful truth hit home the more bizarre and contradictory his posts became until he disappeared.
R was a false prophet, but anyone who liked his tone should come on over to hairsite. We have a surplus of people that talk out of their a$$.
I think this Topic is interesting, take a look:
There will the 6th World Congress of Hair Research (only happens in 3 to 3 years), Dr. Cotsarelis will be there, maybe we get news from Follica and other company's that are developing a treatment for hair loss (Aderans, Histogen, etc…) take a look to:
lol @ R proclaiming natural hairloss cures really worked and fed everyone to hairloss resreach to buy into there ridiculous propaganda. AWESOME>
"Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working."
It's been nearly three years since we first came here and I'm still not sure what category Follica would be in for regulatory approval, won't that make a huge difference to both the trials they will need and the time it will take? I don't think the treatment required anything to be taken orally and neither did it involve any injections. So would it be called a topical or a device? this may have been answered before but to be honest I can't remember anymore.
A patent is now out for this process of follicle neogenesis, and a company called Follica Inc., which includes scientists in the original wounding experiment, is heading up the project. While the treatment is still years away, and may cross paths with the idea of hair multiplication, pre-clinical trials are already underway.
Baldness be gone: There is no determinable date as to when this might be available given that trials can last years. As soon as 2015 or 2018 could be a possibility, but that's being generous.
j, where the hell did you dig that up from, it sounds like it's years old. Was that a response to the post from JS?
JS I'm not sure which category their treatment will fit into, but you're right when you say it will make quite the difference in trial time depending on how it's categorized.
j, it was seeing your post on the latest Follica article that made wonder what category their treatment would be in, you seemed pretty sure it wouldn't be categorized as a drug. Are you saying you don't believe that now?
In all the discussions of Follica I'm still not sure exactly what it will be categorized as if it does come out, isn't that a pretty important question to ask though? the original reports of it going through trials rapidly could still stand as far as we know.
FYI Aderans appears to have updated their website with a little more detailed description of their process. They talk about their new patented cellular culturing process called "Ji Gami™". They state that "ARI envisions a time when crowns (vertex) can be covered with full, natural hair regardless of the degree of hair loss". Not sure if this implies that they are having a tougher time at the hairline. And they also talk about the process being autologous: "It should be noted that ARI treatments are entirely autologous. That means ARI only attempts to generate hair growth using the participant's own hair. No foreign growth media, such as plant- or animal-derived growth factors, are involved. When the cultivated hair cells are restored to the participant's scalp, he or she is only receiving his or her hair cells. This serum–free process delivers a degree of safety from complications unique to the field." Not sure if this implies that the regulatory hurdles are much lower. I believe typically that an autologous procedure does not need regulatory approval. The main page encourages people to participate in their clinical trials and it also appears to be encouraging new investors to explore the possibility of getting involved on the business side.
Great posting ZZ,,im going to the site right now.
Let´s cut to the chase and put a link directly. There is also a video on the bottom of the article.
They state that "ARI envisions a time when crowns (vertex) can be covered with full, natural hair regardless of the degree of hair loss". Not sure if this implies that they are having a tougher time at the hairline
This statement is frightening! what about the rest of the head? what about a full head of hair?
Frightening, 'hairquest? I wouldn't say that at all. More like a doorway to better days ahead.
Fina can do the same for most of users, the interest is to cover the rest of the head otherwise what's the point?
I am sure that they will grow hair in front as well as back, crown and top. If in any pointless way they could not grow hair on the front, you can make a really small classic HT just to fix that detail. If you ask me, I think that they will grow a full head of hair on every part of yours, mine and everyone else´s chandelier. ;) :D
Just chiming in.
I think that this news is actually pretty positive.
Sure, the "10 years" statement on the website is slightly disconcerting. But I think it is better to be honest than to fabricate unrealistic timelines.
Regarding the "vertex" or "hairline" problem, I think Aderans knows that this technique will not be as accurate as hair transplants. This is probably why they specify vertex. Most likely it will grow hair, but not with the precision necessary to make a natural hairline. Get HM for the vertex to look full, and get a transplant for the hairline to look natural.
Let's just continue to hope that "within the decade" is closer to 3 years than 10.
Great summation Shooter.
so WTF?? whats our time frame? 3yrs?? Im waiting for histogen outside the us, I think that is the closest option….
One thing is clear; If the trials this company conducted did not produce results, they would not be looking for more funding.
Then again, if the first trials produced great results, they would not have to go out looking for funding, the funding would be flying in, especially from BigPharm.
The experiments this company is doing, is producing results that requires further funding and research.
They have not produced something that if released to the World would produce significant results.
OK so where does that leave us? When Propecia and Midoxodil were released, they showed some promise.
No company is going to release a product that merely competes with these two. It must be a substantial improvement in order to come to the market.
My guess is that these guys are onto something, but have not hit the homerun yet.
Once the homerun is hit, they have to submit to the FDA. Once this happens, the company would go public and we would all know about it anyway.
So for the meantime, keep positive. The money we are all willing to spend on a cure will cause the research to continue.
I don't think you need to worry that they're talking about the crown only. The trials focus on the crown only if I reckon correctly, so just like with propecia and minoxidil (their trials were also on the crown only), Aderans (or, Unihair) may only state such claims about the crown area.
"Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after the other" Walter Elliot
Correct me if im wrong, i cant seem to see 10 years timeline on the Adreans website?
This is funny. Aderans is basically saying, "yea, get a transplant now to seal up your front… and we'll be able to fill the rest in later". Everyone seems on board with that.
Yet, when ol' Lurker asked what's holding us back from getting a HT (for the hairline) now… a bunch here scowled.
The vertex balds more consistently than the harline. If you're Aderans than I suspect you'll want to focus efforts on that part of the scalp to build a base for your treatment before you proceed to trickier parts like the hairline
Lurker, you can do whatever you want. Aderans is forecasting that their procedure will work consistently as planned. If they are right, then great. If they aren't, you'll have a problem with insufficient donor. Of course I hope for the former, but in my experience it is safer to plan for the worst case scenario.
Btw, Artista. That quote was awesome.
I said I'd be back to check on any takers for my offer to contact Cotsarelis. Of course I'm a couple of days late but then again my experiments often run what days I have off for the week (if any). I guess I'm just as evil as Follica.
Maverick, thanks but I think you and others may have misread my posts. I wrote that if I could find someone here who sincerely wanted to work on getting information (of any kind, with NO guarantees) from Cotsarelis that I'd be willing to set some time aside. This would involve bouncing a few emails between me and person 'X' and/or 'Y' from this thread and giving it a sane shot. If I am not able to find such a person, then I'll go to my "sources" in academia but I think that's where the confusion is. I have sufficient #s of friends who are A) grad students B) post-docs C) new PIs (principal investigators) D) medical doctors and E) combinations (doctors turned faculty, etc. etc.). Bottom line is that I don't want to give background on Follica to friends in research and then to ask them to do me the favor of contacting a PI (in this case Cotsarelis) to poke and prod some info under the guise of collaborations, etc. Or, to ask my friends go the extra mile and genuinely establish a collaboration with Cotsareli in order to possibly (POSSIBLY) get some info about a androgenetic alopecia therapy. If I was to go that route I would in no circumstance share information on this or any thread.
Not to pick on anyone on this thread but the whole junior business school/MBA/patent attorney s*** gets old fast. I love to talk shop but when people try to tell you about what information you or others can't share in the field you live and breathe every day it gets old fast. Yes, you have to swear in blood you'll never talk about your company's research, and frankly you'd be stupid to share something that is easily taken advantage of (such as the sale of your company when insider trading can land you in prison), but friends and I occasionally talk about company projects in generalities. And sometimes associates who I wouldn't consider friends have similar discussion. A) that's what patents are for and B) If you're really in control of your research you know what's incredibly sensitive and what to withhold. Some of the generic information that people are searching for here is casually passed (I'm pretty sure) among Cotsarelis' own people and probably onto some of their friends in his dept.
Enough with my the speeches on this thread – it looks like there are a couple of potential takers. I'm not guaranteeing anything but I'd be willing to follow up with some emails to those who've got an interest in being proactive. This is not some free service on my part and I'm working with others to avoid having to go to Cotsarelis as someone in biotech. As far as whatever information is gained (if any), I frankly don't care what others do but I myself will be done with this thread. Those interested (Deluxe, hairquest) please let me know what email to reach you at – you can set up a throw away email, doesn't matter to me. And we can take it from there.
Here is mine.
I notice some people have been questioning Dapne Zohar on Twitter, I don't really see the point myself as it's quite obvious now that there's nothing much she can say but she has confirmed that Follica's lead clinical program is a treatment for androgenetic alopecia.
Cheers to that! Thanks for posting Ryan.
Man, I kinda feel bad for her. I think this blog is a nice medium for conversation, but her private twitter account? Isn't that a little much?
Somebody should just say "Look, we aren't interested in bothering you on Twitter. Just give us a real, honest and informative press release."
That's what I thought Shooter, I saw her twitter about a week ago but didn't mention it because I thought it was going a bit far. I guess a lot of other people found it anyway, she said she's got thousands of posts so it must be a hell of a lot of people.
I don't really feel comfortable with it to be honest. And it could end up having a negative effect.
Agreed Ryan and Shooter I do feel bad for her now… maybe even regret some of things I said. Though if one did want to express their negative thoughts or feelings about her (or Follica) this would be the place to do it, not on her personal twitter account. I think it goes w/o saying the right thing to do would be not bothering her on her twitter. Something about that seems more like harassment. I hope some of these people back off on their lashing out towards her especially on something thats specifically designed for socializing and not her primary place of work. I also concur w/ your thoughts Ryan that it's only going to act as a double-edge sword towards those who are attacking Zohar in this fashion. Hope it ends, theres a such thing as going to far… these people are crossing a line IMO. On a positive note, it is good news though I guess we were wrong too, seems they are still persuing HM.
I feel bad for Daphne, and I certainly don't condone harassing people on twitter or otherwise, but I firmly believe she wouldn't be inundated with 1000 posts if someone at Puretech, or Follica was slightly more upfront with their updates.
I mean seriously, was it that difficult — or did it infringe on Follica's propriety tech — to confirm their lead clinical program is still a treatment for androgenetic alopecia? Consequently, would it be equally difficult for someone to confirm whether they achieved proof-of-concept on humans, or if someone could give us a rough update on their timeline (that puts that NBC piece to rest)?
BTW, thanks for the great find Ryan. I certainly feel better Follica's focus remains hair growth. Now if only they could confirm their proof of concept, and timeline I would be a happy camper.
Like rev said I really don't understand why they didn't just say that this was still their lead clinical program when they were asked.
I'm also quite relieved that it seems none of the regular posters on here or hairsite seem to have been involved with this. It shows that it's not just us who are waiting for news.
It's been a while and since there's no real news to discuss, I thought I would pose a question or two to those who have been following this issues closely.
1. It seems DHT attacks genetically suceptable follicles through inflammation. I guess that's why Rogaine works well. If inflammation is the problem, why has research focused so much on DHT? It seems to me developing an anti-inflammatory that works on the scalp could be a great way to go.
2. I noticed Pfizer is working on a frug much like Rogaine, but stronger. What is the word on that product?
I wish I could discuss Follica, but they seem to be operating inside Area 51 and don't want to talk.
Which product are you talking about DBS in point 2?
Apart from that, I really don't know what to think anymore:
– Histogen: Looks very good. But what about the lawsuit that is able to 'kill' the company? They had great financial problems if I remember correctly, why don't we hear anything about that anymore? Are they faking results to get investors? Are they not as far as they claim to be (product to market in 2013!?)?
– Follica: I think all is said about this company already. No human trials yet, meaning at least ~8 years till they bring a product to market -> skip it.
– Aderans: Our best bet imo, but how good is it? Why are they now saying it only works for the crown? Why did they buy Intercytex'IP? Will it really work better than Propecia/Minoxidil? How many (expensive) treatments are needed?
– Trichoscience: Starting human clinical trials in october this year if everything goes as planned -> like follica, skip it.
I'm 22 now, I think I will have at least reached 40 (and NW 6) before anything great comes out ;(
Whoop – Histogen was subjected to a lawsuit for copyright infringement (for a product that Histogen had not brought to market) no further news has been provided about the lawsuit (if anyone knows anything further I would love to hear it). The lawsuit did, however, result in a loss of funding by investors in the United States. Histogen then found some investors in Singapore – and, as a precondition to the investment, are continuing their phase II trials there (Singapore). The advantage of the trials overseas include a reduced time to come to market (no FDA approval required) while maintaining a strict adherence to trial standards that meet US criteria. If successful, Histogen will continue phase III in Asia and launch their product in that market (except for Japan). I think Histogen is making the best of a difficult situation and, hopefully, we will hear some good news soon.
PLEASE!!:( lol
I still don't know how i can help but here's mine, firstname.lastname@example.com
Seriously whats going on? No word from the confrence, Adrean is only going to work for the crown, are you going to get our hair back anytime soon?
Ya what happened at the conference?? COMON WTF????????????
Guys, if something happened, we would find out by now.
Nothing happened there. All enjoyed a holiday in Australia paid by the company and we're still looking at timelines of 10years+
whoop that is just not true….dude stop saying things that you have no idea about. your talking out your ass…
Hi everyone.
Is anyone interested in the projected release date for Aderans Ji Gami?
Is anyone interested in their clinical results to date?
Ok. I guess I'll just… not post anything then.
It's not much, but it's more info than we've ever had before.
Trials seem to be going "ok" (not great, but not bad either).
Release is set for beginning of 2014.
Oh, and another thing…
What do you think "draft market entry strategy" means?
We're not out of the woods yet, guys. But there is hope on the horizon. Chin up everyone. Happy Monday.
And this is for anyone interested in hearing Ken Washenik speak Japanese:
Shooter great info! But Im wondering…does this mean they will increase the results? will this eventually give people their hair back??
Well… Aderan's expanding their Phase II trial by an additional 100 people, and Phase II is generally regarded as the efficacy trial. It seems like the next batch of recruits will be used to -hopefully- optimize their treatment to give people their hair back…. or, at least, a cosmetically acceptable amount of their hair back.
The results they've had until now aren't all that promising to be honest… I know they are still looking for the right amounts for their formula, and maybe results can me compounded, but guess what that's gonna cost us…
I don't understand, on their
website they say they can grow hair in crown to give a full head of hair?
Release date is near 2014…yet people on here are still pessimistic. Seriously, this is pretty good news, yet some of you will always have something negative to say and not just appreciate any good news at all.
Jordan, the website said ARI "envisions a time" when a full restoration is possible. It's just gimmickry. Don't put too much faith in website language.
J, this alone will not give everyone all their hair back (something that we already knew). The hope is that the results are compoundable, and that it can be used with tradional transplants to enhance the results.
Before everyone gets all depressed, just try to remember that:
1) They showed 1 photo out of over 100 trialists.
2) The photo was only after 3 months (which means the follicle was immature – not even transplants fully grow in 3 months).
3) This was from the Ji Gami process. They haven't even started testing Ji Gami C, Ji Gami N or Ji Gami CN (which *should* produce better results).
4) We look at the pictures and go "Well, that isn't gonna be cosmetically acceptable." and write off the whole procedure. Don't you think the execs at Aderans would have said the same thing? There is something that is motivating them to push this through to commercialization that isn't visible in the slide presentation. Either it's better results or the promise of better results, but it has to be something (or else they are just really, really dumb).
Once again, we aren't out of the woods. I just think that a release date is a very positive step in the right direction, and with luck the efficacy will eventually meet our expectations.
Well said Shooter
Excellent info Shooter! Also something that caught my eye regarding Histogen is a new June 17 release about how their matrix product seems to actually reduce cancer. Apparently, they noticed that tumor formation was significantly reduced along the needle track when the needle was coated with their matrix. Obviously great safety news in general especially when it comes time for approval but it may also be a good indication that the upper end on potencies of HSC may be reasonable to experiment with in their clinical trials or that a very potent topical might be a possibility. I hope their information is credible. There sure seems to be a lot of uses for the substances they produce under embryonic conditions.
To add to ZZ's comment "There sure seems to be a lot of uses for the substances they produce under embryonic conditions."…AND the evolution of medical science research is a constant. Serendipitous discoveries has been and will always be fact of life.
Good Point Artista. And also, to add to what Shooter said, by 2014, I'm sure the tweaking and the things Aderans and others learn over that time period will do nothing but make the results better.
I think its good they posted the pics, and there is more methods to try. I hope they can do it!
well I was hoping for sooner than 2014 but I am certainly happy with that time frame as long as it works well…..
I wonder if there are any players that can beat that timeline……???
Along with the new info, let's open a new topic for discussion.
Based on what you've read (on the website and press release) do you think Aderans' goal is to make new follicles or regenerate old ones?
It seems to me that they have decided to take the latter approach. Not sure if I prefer this. Discuss.
Shooter, regeneration would be my preference. I think that approach would be our best hope of having our hairlines look as natural as possible. New follicles only make sense if you've got scarring and there's no follicles there to regenerate.
j, Histogen expect to have their first treatment out in 2013 in asia, and you never know Follica might still surprise us and come through sooner, although seeing Daphne Zohar trying to distance Follica from the NBC piece doesn't give me that much confidence that they'll have anything in the next couple of years.
I agree with Ryan full heartily. Think about it if for any reason you lost the seed all together then your going to want regeneration. If for some reason you ran out of hair follicles you would be screwed. A new hair is going to be better than a old one since you don't have to worry about scarring either. It's just more convenient to have a brand new hair than an old used one. It will also probably be less expensiveness and look more natural since you don't have to have someone plant it in there for you. Seems to me the new hair would just simply mimics natures natural course.
Ryan I agree with you…..
Regeneration, without a doubt. It sovles the hairline issue and it would provide a more natural look. As Cotsarelis's work has shown, the new follicles don't come from the same place as the original follicles. We just don't known how that would appear.
It still amazes me that 13 years after an accidental drug like propecia, we have nothing new. If inflammation appears to be how DHT attacks the follicle, hopefully something can be formed to fight that.
Truth be told, I'm not looking to get a full head of hair back. I'd be happy just to go a few years back in time. Having some recession at the temples is no big deal. I hope that's not totally blasphemy.
How successful will this be on a scalp that has been bare for quite a while. Is this treatment really for diffuse thinners?
Jay, I don't think anyone knows how effective it will be on diffuse thinners, but I suspect that if the treatment works well, it will work well for diffuse thinners too.
DBS, that's not blasphemy! I totally agree with you.
I know its very early days and nobody know the real ins and outs of the treatment. with regeneration it is the same follicles that we were born with. It must be a case that the regenerated hais and follicles become DHT resistant.
I prefer regeneration as well for many of the reasons already mentioned, plus the creation of new follicles raises issues such as possible inconsistency of hair density throughout the scalp, and directionality. However, according to the numbers reported by both Histogen and Aderans, I'm not sure at this point if they can control what is happening. Histogen and Aderans reported a 47.21% & 62% increase, respectively, in Total Hair count. Histogen and Aderans also reported a 73.61% & 79% increase, respectively, in Terminal Hair count. So each concepts appears to be both regenerating and creating. Assuming that most of the terminal hairs were regenerated from existing vellus hairs (which could be totally inaccurate), it also appears, at this point, that each concept has a greater ability to regenerate than to create, although only slightly so with respect to Aderans. Trichoscience has said that their concept does both as well.
Also, has anyone noticed the chart on Page 22 of the link posted by Shooter? If I am reading that correctly, it looks like Aderans went from about a 30% rate of viable responders in Phase I to a 50-70% rate in Phase II. The viable response rate appears to have at least doubled.
I saw that chart ZZ, I assumed more people were responding due to an increase in dosing, although I'm not sure.
Yeah, it seems as if they are refining their technique. Just remember that "viable response" = typical response from Rogaine. So 50-70% of Aderans trialists got results that were equal to that of Rogaine.
This doesn't sound that great, but remember that the chart only gives 18 week (4.5 month) data for the first version of Ji Gami. There are Ji Gami C, N and CN (all of which might produce better and more consistent results).
I just have to believe that there was something more promising that they didn't reveal. Otherwise how could they be so resolute in their decision to commercialize this technique in 3 years?
Also, the results from the Aderans treatment might be compoundable and they might last a lot longer than Rogaine. This will make a huge difference in the treatments.
Ryan, It might be dosing or a whole range of other "tweaking" but whatever they are doing they seem to be getting a better response as they go. Blue is definitely Phase I and after that I assumed chronological order. Red improved over blue but then green outresponds purple except at the 15 week mark. While the statistical numbers look good, the pictures aren't real impressive. Progress nonetheless although I can't wait to see a set of pics showing baseline to golden retriever!
I agree Shooter. I am actually very impressed about the 50-70%, especially since it is coming from a 30 % Phase I response. It sounds to me like they are zoned in on some of the right variables. I am sure they will continue tweaking thru 2014 so its hard to believe the results won't keep getting better and better.
I know no one knows for sure, but… if you had to guess…
How much do you think this would cost a consumer?
I've been following this for a while. Finally a follow-up
Not bad results. Makes you realize how many are working on hair loss and from all the different angles.
wow!! looks pretty good! anybody think this is worth a try???
"Men or women that are totally bald or have been for many years, there's no live hair follicles, so growth factors, or stem cells, or dynamite isn't going to grow hair in an area where there's nothing there to work with."
Didn't scientists find that follicles never die? They just rest.
Now, who is wrong?
Zarko great point…
this news already widely was commented in the hairsite. this news says on alopecia areata, what it does not have linking none with androgenica alopecia, our problem.
Friends dont let friends type drunk.
Sorry to be a little slow on the uptake, didn't know this was old news.
I though it might have some relation to androgenic alopecia. The fact that stem cells were being injected into the scalp and hair is growing where it was previously bald patches. What do I know, I'm no expert.
Is that article not referring to PRP!, the very same PRP that has been discredited as non effective.
Please people disregard this recycling of information
Yeah, that is talking about PRP as far as I can see and that's of no use to us.
Did anyone find out who was involved with that Follica chat group on Daphne Zohar's twitter? I was wondering if that was the end of the discussion or is that the only part made public, I can't see any further replies from her on the subject. It looked to me like there were many people questioning her about it and I'm surprised no one from the sites we know of were involved.
Zarko, from what I've read over the years follicles don't die they just go in to a permanent resting phase, I remember a study from about 2001 saying a bald man has the same number of follicles has a non bald man but they're just not working properly.
I know that. That's why I wrote it.
To show that they don't know what they are saying(knowledge is lacking).
If this is true, scientists don't need to regenerate new follicles, they just need to wake existing ones.
For androgenic alopecia(which most of us here has, correct me if I am wrong) waking up hair follicles is enough. But for example, burning victims there is no choice, for them creating new follicles is essential.
I hope that they figure out how to create new follicles… There are no follicles on my head to be "woken up" due to extensive scarring from a surgery I had when I was very young. Will histogens procedure produce new follicles?
I found this article on xconomy a very sobering read, it shows how difficult it is to get something to market. The last point made on page 2 is something I think Follica are going to have to go through as well from what we know, luckily for us the people at Follica do seem to be extremely competent, although slightly frustrating when you're trying to get any shred of information out of them.
Good article, just remember that those costs and complication are for new drugs, not devices and procedures (which are probably different).
Hopefully Aderans gets better results as trials progress and they don't have to abandon their research.
Got a mail from TRX2…don know whether to belive this guy or not…says he will update the public abt 'first results' in 2 months. wat does he mean by first result ?
Pasted the mail below…
"Hi there,
It has been a long time that you have indicated your interest in our company and upcoming products. Over the last few months we have made great progress towards commercialization. However due to the time consuming nature of science (and test/approval of new technologies) it will take another couple of month until we will be able to update the public with any more details and possibly first results. In the meanwhile please signup for our free e-course on hair growth. We have put together lots of valuable info on how to deal best with your hair loss problem as well as keeping you up to date with our company and upcoming products. It is absolutely FREE to signup – you can unsubscribe at any point in case you find our e-course not useful (I doubt it!).
Simply visit http://www.trx2.com/ and signup for the e-course; you will receive a confirmation link via email.
I hope this is of interest for you & looking forward to keeping in touch in the future.
Dr. Thomas Whitfield DPhil "
That joker Whitfield is not funny anymore. Is he begging for getting his ass kicked?
Jus went thru the TRX2 website…there r no big names as far as the medical or corporate team is concerned…jus one jokers name appears "Whitefield"
This is taking so long, all i want is to have a FULL head of HAIR, and tobe able to style it!! How much longer do we have to suffer for??
Jordan I hear yA!!!!!!!
Does anyone know anything about this company.
Is it similar to PRP? I'm not really sure.
"fat-derived stem cells"
… that sounds allot like http://www.adistem.com
ok now WTF are these companies?? total bs?? somebody tell me WTF is going on here?? can they give us hair back or what?
To J,
No, they don't. Did you see pictures of people.
Ridiculous! They just saw a new trend of stem based "cures", and want to get your money. Do you really think we are first to hear for them?
Whole world would know about them.
I would like that to be true, but we have to wait a long time fr this to be true.
All those companies are scams.
This forum is of no use anymore it is now dominated by bitter know-it-all lunatics Artista what has happened here ? Good luck to you all I hope hair will bring you all happiness.
Metsie I'm here and i understand your frustrations. Remember, at this point in the game it is a REAL waiting game. The wait is for REAL data from REAL research upcoming. Keep your eyes focus on Histogen.
scam artists who prey on people while they are weak deserve to rot in prison for life w no possibility of parol!!!!!!!!!!!
Im losing hope!! i cant wait 5 more years!
So did we learn anything new from the 6th World Congress of Hair Reaserch Conference? I was anticipating good news from it especially from Dr. Cots. Any info or ideas?
To Jordan,
Please man, don't do it to yourself.
We are all in the same problem, but it is NOT
that much of a problem to mentally destroy yourself. We are all been there, but in time it will fade and you WILL accept it(until something come out :)).
Just look around you. Many bald men… So what!
Chill out my man :)
I agree with Jordan! CANT WAIT 5 YRS!!!!
Listen fact is not all guys look good with a shaved bald head….if I did I wouldnt care as much! but its a huge deal and I have been dealing with it for over 10yrs! Im tired of it and I want to look like myself again!!! WHEN THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO HAVE SOMETHING??? Asia in 3yrs? WHEN??
Use a hairpiece if you really look that bad. Otherwise wait another 10 years and hope anything GOOD and AFFORDABLE comes out in the meanwhile.
I don't trust the claims of aderans and histogen that say we'll have to wait another 3-5 years. That has been the tale for many years now, and we all know how those stories ended.
Sorry if I disappoint you, it's just what I think of it.
First of all Whoop there is no way it is going to take 10yrs…. I am frustrated as hell but I am very sure it wont take that long. Im sure it will be before 5yrs although that is a long time and Im hoping for 2-4yrs!!
second of all there is no way I would wear a hairpiece that is worse then being bald anyday!! a women would def rather u be bald then wear a piece!!
I love your no way its gonna take 10 years insane talk :) No one knows how long it will take.
wheres your proof? U Cant be sure anything will happen in the next 5 years. Pretty baseless comments. 5 years is a blink of the eye in terms of research funding. trials, approval etc etc
Dont mean to jump all over you but just a ridiculous post :)
Cadillac…its not a rediculous post!! thats how I feel, my feelings are noot rediculous! Im not saying thats how it is , im saying thats HOW I FEEL!! I would have a hard time believing with all the companies out there working on this that one of them doesnt come out with something in the near term… thats all im saying. We havnt even heard from or know what the hell is going on with follica and they were supposed to have something by now…
and didnt Histogen or whomever say they could have something in Asia in like 2yrs or something?
what is going on with histogen??
I know it's frustrating, but there's really nothing that can be done unless you have the knowledge to conduct your own research. We've just got to deal with that.
A year ago, I thought Follica provided the best opportunity, but they don't appear to be anywhere close to a product. Placing a timeframe on success is probably a non-starter as well.
I started losing my hair 14 years ago. Back then, I'm sure everyone thought we were less than 10 years away, but we weren't. Progress is being made, but it may be that those born around this time are the ones who will benefit, not us.
DBS I dont think so dude! we already have 2 companies with release dates within 5yrs!! and we dont know anything about follica!! they could be in the middle of trials…NOBODY knows for sure!
The truth is we already have treatments, 25 years ago there was nothing at all besides hairpieces… that looked awful.
Now we have propecia, rogaine, and hair transplants. Don't get me wrong, they all have problems. No doubt. They are not solutions, they are gateways.
I think that it would be fantastic, to just get one or two more in the next two-three years. That way there would be more options.
Lurker good point…even if we had something that we had to get done every year, who cares? WE NEED SOME HAIR DAMMIT!! lets hope these companies are making progress..
Follica did say things are moving quickly….
you do realize the proposed release dates are a joke right?
They always say 5 years away. Its close enough to keep us hopeful and maintaining regiments and also keep investors interested.
Yet still far enough away that no one holds the company too it.
If you want to believe in 2-4 years you will be saved more power to you but BASED on all the information we have 5 years is highly doubtful.
Cadillac, I think j was referring to histogen who said they will be releasing their treatment in Asia in 2013.
Cadillac if thats what you believe then I dont know what the hell you are even coming to this site for? you could very well be correct on what you say…but I hope to god you are dead wrong and thats what Im betting on! I am really so fed up with talking about when we think things are going to come to market. I wish we could at least know for sure when. We have all been suffering for so frekin long now….life is short and I want to live my life to the fullest (with hair!)
I dont want to waste time yelling back and forth with who thinks this and who thinks that…I have always been a man that….when I have a problem I face it and take action to fix it! Although what gets me so pissed in this situation is I cant do a damn thing about my stupid hair!! the answers to my problem are in the hands of these companies..
Im tired of waiting, tired of this bullshit!
where is the light at the end of the tunnel??
Histogen's phase II trials have already begun in Singapore (they are nearing the 1 month mark now). Histogen should have preliminary results for this stage by 30 September 2010 (HSC had showed statistically significant increase in hair count and thickness at the 12-week scheduled time point, with a single treatment at baseline during their phase I Honduras trials). The Honduras trial lasted 5 1/2 months with Histogen having prepared a manuscript for submission of complete patient efficacy at both the 12 and 22 week periods. If Histogen can repeat or improve on their original results (the phase II study will have more than a single treatment at baseline)- they will move to phase III ASAP. I think Histogen is well ahead of all the other reported companies – so stay tuned help is on the way.
TE how do you know that they have started trials? If everything works for them they will beat Adreans
I'd be happy with any of the aforementioned companies to come out with an effective treatment – soon.
I'm very hopeful about Follica's technology; as someone who is strongly considering transitioning from male to female, the fact that their technology could potentially be used to (a) grow hair and (b) to remove it too (e.g. facial hair) has me interested on both counts.
Hope it's not too long before we all have something to smile about on the hair front.
I recieved an email from histogen a couple of wks back saying that they are only preparing for trials. that it will be the 4th quarter before they get subjects for the trials.
TE and jay whats going on with you two? How can you have such vastly dif stories about the same company?? (histogen)
Thank you for your interest and message. We would be happy to add you to our interest list for the upcoming clinical trials of HSC for hair regrowth, which will be taking place in Singapore. We will provide this list with updates on the HSC product and trial, as well as plans for subject recruiting, as these progress.
this the mail i recieved on the 11th of june
Histogen is currently in planning stages for the next trial, and I anticipate sending information regarding subject recruiting in the Q4 2010 timeframe. If I can provide any further information, please feel free to contact me directly at the email below.
either way a couple of months difference is not goin to matter in the long run. the main thing is that it works.
Will Histogen way give us hair back permanently or not? I don't think so.
I heard something about that, I think.
If someone knows something abput this, please let us know.
I dont know the specific in's and out's but even if it takes repeat sessions in the future and it works well then i dont see that as being a major problem once the fee is not on the large side. I would like to hear some more info on this though.
You are right Jay, but if I or anyone else need to travel to Asia for a treatment, well it can be expensive. There are people who doesn't have that much money. I would be the first.
Once Histogen start phase II, how long will it be untill they post update pics?
Also if anyone still thinks Follica is going to come through is DREAMING!!!!
did anyone ever see a dude that shaves his head every day although he has a wicked thick head of hair? Im like WTF what a idiot! we could only be as lucky to have a thick ass head of hair and this idiot is shaving his….what a damn waste!!! aaahhhh!!
This may be a dumb question, but I don't and have never used Rogaine or Propecia. If a person were to begin taking these drugs today, would they only provide maintenace for what the person currently has, or would they enable the person to go 6 months back in time, 12 months back in time, or even 18 months back in time?
I have suffered from hairloss for 14 years, but it wasn't until 15 months ago it became a real problem for me. I was fine with what was happening, but it seemed things, after progressing steadily for long time, accelerated. If I could go 15 or even 10 months back in time, I would do it.
propecia doesnt even start working until like 6 months to a yr after you start using it. and even then it will only stop hair from falling out(supposedly) I think they are both a waste of time if you ask me. They both didnt work for me. Plus they can affect your sex life.
Just because they dont work for you doesnt make them a waste of time to millions of people around the world.
Propecia will start working as soon as you take 1 of them but before you see any significant results it will take upwards of a year because your hair goes through stages of growth, fall out, new hair growth. So many people dont see results until 1 year plus……………….Rogaine will give you new hair but that new hair will be rogaine dependent once you start using it it is a life long commitment, I have been on both these drugs on and off since about 20 but now im 25 its a permanent thing for me to maintain it till i see results of histogen aderans or HT. Yep there are side effects but none of those side effects have happened to me and if they have they have been minimal.
Is it a permanent thing for you to have chalky, flaky skin on your face, lack of libido, brain fog too?
Sign me up! Sounds like fun!
to Jordan and Jay – I was using Dr. Gail Naughton's quote to S. Kobren in re: the Histogen phase II trails in Singapore to take place in June.
Here is part of the transcript: Dr Naughton —"Histogen plans to enroll 50 patients in another HSC experiment that will be done in Singapore. This study will begin no later than June"
From an interview with S Kobren with Gail Naughton.
My apologies if the date has been changed – it was not my intention to provide misinformation. I would be interested in any other details that are germain to the Histogen trials in Asia as I am trying to follow this company as closely as I can.
No worries mate, i'd much prefer if what you posted is actually closer to the truth. Again a couple of months wont make one difference once the product works. It would be great if someone on one of the forums was based in Singapore on could get onto the trial and even relay small snippets of info to us.
Hey AA, maybe you should not try to scare people away with bullshit talk, just because i drug doesnt work for you doesnt mean all your body functions stopped working. In 10 years since FDA approval their have been literally millions of people using this drug and the side effect rate is constantly measured at 2% or less. That is the fact, dont scare people who are trying to save their hair.
@A – Fact? Sorry, but where is the proof?
I am starting to believe that something is gonna come in the next couple of years. So much research is being carried out on various different area in medicine that i think something will spill over into hairloss and benefit the fight. There has been relatively little money in research terms pumped into the fight against baldness. I apologise for sounding like a broken record but i believe tissue engineering could be something that could be attempted right now and it could feasibly work.
A you are so full of shit. Stop advetising on this forum and get a real job. No one is buying into your half assed attempt to sell you sterilizing drugs.
Everybody ignore A he is obviously paid for his lies.
I've been using propecia for about 3 years now and I can say that it has definitely worked for me. Initially I felt my sex drive slow down, but after about 4-6 months, everything feels normal. I may be a lucky few, but I have to say that if it weren't for Propecia, I would probably have significantly less hair. I noticed my hair getting fuller, and maybe grow a bit more. Definitely noticed that shedding has stopped.
I would recommened it to anyone, but beware that if it actually works on you, that you will not see the benefits for a while. People need to stop criticizing others. It all depends on where you are at your hairloss. If you are thinning, you should use it sooner than later, however, it can get expensive.
overall though propecia is a waste of time. it may save a few hairs here or there but we need a decent treatment. something with NOTICEABLE results!!!!!! we need our hair back and that is that!! no BS
I think that is the reason everyone is here. In the meantime, people should share ideas about what is reasonable to hold off anymore loss if it is worth it. Everyone may be at a different point of hair loss, but the fact remains that, we all want to achieve a fuller head of hair. I believe that Histogen (if successful) will be the holy grail for those who are thinning with diffuse hair. If you are completely bald, people may hope for Unihair (Aderans) or Follica (if successful).
Perhaps Histogen will come thru for all.
i forgot to tell you that propecia only works on the crown area!! so whats the point may as well just accept things and wait for histogen….
I've had one ht for my hairline, and its done an ok job of maintaining, but not as good as I would like. Propecia helps to keep the hair healthy and thick all over. This, overall, helps to keep my appearance of not balding much better. Trust me. For anyone out there that is borderline of thinning and balding, use it. It was worth it for me. Thats all I can say. Am I completely happy? No. But there is hope, which is a lot closer than we could've ever hoped for. I know there are people who have been let down with the whole 5 year mark, but this is real. Clinical trials are expensive and investors are not going to help fund it if they dont believe they have something to gain.
Thanks for putting that up NR, It's good news for alopecia areata sufferers but it still leaves us with very little. These genetic advances aren't likely to be giving results for at least a decade.
Our best hopes are cell based treatments imo, or a sudden out of the blue discovery that no one was expecting, they do say we're living in exponential times and these discoveries to seem to be happening quicker and quicker.
where is our treatment?????????????
Indeed, j, indeed.
Really feeling pretty desperate about this, please someone release a product that works – SOON!
Thanks Deluxe for that personal account. Can you expand a little on the HT that you had? How many FUEs etc etc. For me its always an interesting and excellent topic to discuss.
Sorry to break this to you AAA but i been posting here since the beginning of this whole thing, i dont work for proecia in any way, but when idiots like you and your likeness talk crap scaring people from Saving hair its not helping anyone, or did you overlook the fact that 80% of people stop losing hair when taking it and 2% get side effects which may be severe or mild depending on certain factors. You guys can knock it all ya want your the ones losing more hair then me and others who take it, but dont scare away people who might think to try it.
Oh and if you wanna see success from people who use the big 3 go to hairlosstalk forums and check out their success stories thread instead to listen to all this nonsense.
For my input into the new therapies, facts are facts Histogen will potentially be first to market in 3 – 4 years time, and i pray that their results continue to improve dramatically so that those who are nw 5+ will get improvements from this treatment.
I was looking at Adreans pics from their trails, is it me but Histogen pics look alot better?
what the hell happened at the conference? anything worth a crap? thought the conference was a big deal with ol georgey boy there and all….
I told you before but you just won't listen: the conference was just a nice holiday paid by the company for the scientists. Don't think you'll hear any news from it: you won't. Well, maybe they'll post some pictures on their website of George posing with a kangaroo…
Pleeeeease….we really really need this!
Once Histogen start their trails, how long will it be before they post their pics?
ok seriously…..what are the chances that follica comes out and says some very good news that they will have their treatment before anyone else?????
what are the chances they are doing trials?
chances they can bring soomething to market soon and quickly through approvals?
There is no chance that Follica will have a treatment before Histogen or Aderans. None.
2013/2014 is a good, reasonable timeline. What we need to hope for is that the results will be worth the wait. At this point there is no telling how effective the procedure will be.
I don't believe that for a moment – I honestly believe with the team Follica has behind it, they're going to surprise us all by coming to market with a very effective product/procedure MUCH sooner than that.
Torch me if you want, but I really believe this will happen, and soon.
Well If u think follica will come through then
you are living in la la
land! I am waiting till next summer to see pics from trails. If nothing I am going to make do
of what we have, an fue ht. If something comes out after then
cool I'll get that aswell
One question:
How close are these pictures of Histogen's?
Is it 200%, 500%, a 1000%?
Because, If this is way in, then it will seems like its not much of an improvement.
Shooter what do you think of Gho method? thanks
The Gho method "sounds" good, but there isn't a large body of evidence to back up Dr. Gho's claims. If donor hair can regenerate, there should be hundreds of ecstatic customers. Yet, there aren't.
Dr. Gho has been in the game "crying wolf" for quite awhile. I'm not sure this time is any different.
Given some of the advances in hair follicle research, it is possible one of the reasons Follica has had nothing to say is Cotsarelis' research has moved beyond what he discussed in 2007. It's unlikely, but it is possible.
It is conceivable Cotsarelis' work with Wnt and the discovery that follicles are resting has lead him towards a topical solution that coaxes follicles back to life. I know this is completely unlikely, but I just thought I would throw it out there. Positivity is ok.
A lot depends on how Follica categorize their treatment, if it's put into the medical device category then they'll be working through the trials quicker as far as I'm aware, although it still takes a lot longer than it would in Europe, where devices get approved between 1 and 3 years sooner than in the states.
If it's a new drug the average time for clinical and approval is 77 months, which is 6 yrs and 4 months. That's according to this I read,
as far as we know they haven't conducted any human trials yet.
Did you guys see this?
im sick of reading these articles!!!
DBS I think you are certainly correct that Cotsarelis' research has progressed although I don't think Follica would be inclined to say much regardless. I also think that your point about waking up resting follicles (Dr. C found that the follicles of bald men were smaller and dormant but still existed)is a very solid possibility. In fact, that may be what we are seeing from Histogen. Their first clinical trial showed an increase in "total" hair count (+47.21 %)even though they did not inject any new cultered follicles such as with Aderans. It's possible that these "new" hairs may have come from follicles that were dormant and had no vellus hair extending thru the scalp. And that some of the "new" hair and existing vellus hair turned into terminal hair (+73.61). Maybe Dr. C's latest patent regarding Fibroblast Growth Factor-9 is a key missing ingredient. It's all speculation at this point but it seems highly unlikley that we will hear about the results of any of these trials until the end of 2010 (possibly midway results from Histogen) and most likely mid 2011 (Aderans & Tricho).
From what I have read, the cost of a Histogen treatment will likely be around $5K. Does anyone know when to expect results from Histogen?
Lurker, the link you posted is about alopecia areata. A few days ago NR posted another link about the exact same discovery. It is great news for those with AA, but it doesn't mean anything for us.
Hey shooter, there's a debate on hairsite about
ht and hm. Some people seem to think
if u have had a ht you will not be
a good candidate for hm? I personally think if hm would work if u work regardless if you have had a ht or not?
HM will work after a hair transplant. I am 100% positive. Aderans, Tricho and ICX have all stated this explicitly at different times in the past. I'm not going to go dig everything up, but I promise it will work. No debate to be had.
Thank you shooter, your a great help to these forums
so we are not going to hear anything new for like 6months-1yr??
At least ZZ and DBS agree with what I think!!
Considering we know hair follicles permanently rest in balding men and DHT attacks through inflammation, I'm surprised no reasonable approach has been developed. Rogaine and Propecia weren't even developed for hair loss originally.
If the two things I've listed are indeed true, discovering the holy grail of balding may not be so important right now. Simply creating a lotion, a pill, or a shampoo that nuetralizes DHT and eliminates inflammation could be something great.
I know it's not that simple, but finding a way to awaken what we already have is the answer.
Yes, as long as it's not systemic. As a longtime sufferer of hypogonadic sexual side effects from Propecia – long after stopping usage – I can't emphasize this enough. DHT is used for A LOT of things in our body that have nothing to do with hair.
Staving off Alzheimers and early onset senility for one…
I hope all are staying positive while enduring the 'waiting game' we are obviously well into. Good things will come of it,I have no doubt. It is never good to fall victim to depression because of your hair loss so really try not to. I speak from experience. Seems that almost every morning i wake up with differing degrees of anxiety over it. Thankfully for me it does dissipate and i can get thru the day. What helps to temporarily rid the anxiety is the confidence that i have in all players involved with this research. It is going to be OK guys.
We are getting close no doubt, how ever it is still going to be 3 – 5 years minimum! If you a good candidate and you are on meds, then fue is the best bet untill then.
Good luck with your decisions people, keep us all updated on what route you take
as if things werent bad enouph nowadays….economy sucks, no jobs, no money….no hair, no confidence nothin….just hours, days, weeks, months, years :( we need a treatment!! Comon dammit!!!
Seems quiet on here at the moment.
It is holiday baby!
latest email i received from histogen
Thank you for your continued interest. Histogen's current efforts are focused on preparations for the clinical trial in Singapore, to begin in February 2011. We are also developing our clinical trial plan for the U.S. and Europe, although it is likely we will not have additional information to share on these plans until the end of this year. We look forward to keeping you informed as plans for the trials, and subject recruiting, progress
Wasnt the trials supposed to start sooner.
IIRC. Phase II was supposed to start the early part of 2010 than it was pushed back to the end of 2010; now we're hearing it's Feb 2011
This is somewhat aggravating; Histogen better have one spectacularly successful trial or I'll be forced to build a battleship out of cardboard boxes and invade Singapore. Whose with me?!!
rev im with you….
This should be a rude awakening to any young, naive and overly-optimistic posters. Timelines are useless, and nothing ever goes according to plan.
Even Histogen, the brightest start in the hair regeneration universe, pushed its release date back by 8 months – for no discernable reason whatsoever.
Happy Monday. :/
its not necessarily bad news. they are talkin about doing trials in the US and Europe as well that must be a good thing to. they wouldnt go to that sort of cost if they had nothing. Also in the grand scheme of things if it takes 6 yrs and not 5 yrs is that really a big deal?
GOD SAKE!!!! back to the 5 year mark! This is so dammmm fustrating!
At least they told unlike scum bags Follica
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict Histogen's process will be no more than a step above hair transplants. No trying to be a downer, but I think both they and Follica are just not far enough along to make any real progress in hair regrowth. One day they may provide a bridge to hold someone over for the real "cure", but I think that's a ways off.
I still think the concept of Follica is the best out there, but until they show some modicum of proof they can grow hair on human heads, their process is just a fairy tale. As for Histogen, I'm just not too positive about their process. It's too invasive for me, but that's just me.
I know there have been advances in hair research lately, but it continues to amaze me how slow the process has been. Thirteen years is a long time not to have a new generation of drugs that works better than Propecia. I think that fact speaks volumes about where we stand.
Until I see someone say they know how to reawaken hair follicles, I'm going to remain unimpressed. It may be simplistic, but the idea of an OTC shampoo that was central to the movie "Duplicity" is what I see as the real deal.
Is there anywhere that collects and lists the current hair loss drugs in development today? Or are Follica and Histogen about it?
Here's the comprehensive list:
So is it only those four companies worldwide who are showing promise? there all American as well, I thought other countries would have companies involved by now.
I really dont think there is a need to panic over the timeline with regards to the trial. There was good data from the is pre trial. I'd be more concerned if it was bad news after the trial had taken place. The trial will go ahead and lets see what happens from there. Feb is only 6 moths away and who knows after that it could be great news. either way its not the time to get excited or disappointed with Histogen.
when are we all going to meet and hunt down ol Georgey boy…..lol for some answers!!!
Something is on the way soon, I know it.
(Fingers crossed).
I thought Aderans was Japanese, no?
I just recently got a letter in the mail from Bosley stating that they had "merged" with American Medical Hair Restoration (the place that I had gotten my first transplant). Maybe a month later (last week) I received a phone call from Bosely stating again how the Companies "merged" and that they are offering me a 20% discount on a second procedure, which I have been considering.
My first one was 1200 grafts and it seems to have done an OK job at maintaining, however, other hairs that were there at the time of the transplant seems to have gone away. I'm considering another one to fill in the remaining spot. The reason I believe it will be OK for me to get it is because I have been taking propecia for a long time now and have maintained and improved what I currently have. Since they will not be truly recreating a hair line, I dont think they can manage to mess it up.
I was initially trying to hold off subsequent to the Histogen news, however, like every other company, they are pushing back their trials or "something came up". If i keep thinking they will come out when they say they will, I feel as if I will dissappoint myself in the long run and regret not getting the HT now.
My plan is December. I know you are in the Chicago area, so I can give you more details if you'd like about the experience here, since youve been considering it as well.
Until then, if somehow something arises that gives me some type of faith to hold on, I will. But as of now, my decision is to go for it.
I think its a bit premature to be writing Histogen off. They have given a definite month in Feburary. I would look apon this as a posititve thing. In a previous email they said that they were preparing candidates in the 4th quarter of this yr, thats oct, nov and dec. One could argue that they are doing exactly that and getting all personal in place for a feb start. I dont have any concrete answers just the same as anyone else on here. If feb comes and goes without anything then we can pass judgement but until then lets see what happens and give them the benefit. They have given a month they are gonna start lets wait for that.
I'm going to go ahead with an fue guys, u need
2000 grafts. We have nothing for 4-5 years and I
can't wait that long. Once
on the road of ht you have to
be prepared for another one at a later date. Will I need one? Most
probarly but hopefully well have something by then. Wish me
Deluxe,,thank you for that very welcomed bit of personal experience from you. Yes indeed i am seriously considering having 'work' done (considering my age). We will have a bit of a wait in re to the research. I am confident that there will something great to come but in the meantime,,Deluxe any type of info regarding the Chicago area would be great thanks!
Jordan,,GOOD LUCK my friend!!!! If you select the right Doc/clinic you have a great chance of being satisfied until our day comes.
The fact only four small bio-techs are working on hair loss illustrates the bigger problem. It's just not the priority we think it should be. I suspect there will be nothing in five years that can help. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we're in the same boat 10 years from now.
I'm not trying to spread gloom and doom, especially since some think I'm on a honeymoon with Follica, but the four companies trying to solve this problem are very, very weak in stature. They have only a bit of money with which to deal and not a whole lot to show for it. Bad combo.
With no major pharma company working the issue, I think we should all stand down on the issue. They have the economies of scale to make this work. Follica or Histogen and their combined $20 million don't. Believe, I want something and I want it yesterday. I just don't see it now or in the distant future.
Like I said. When you see the big pharmas get in, we'll be almost there.
Thanks guys I'm not bald, just thinning in the horse shoe pattern. Either DR Keser or Armani for the job. I'm 25 so I
might need one at 30 if nothing is
I dont agree with that, I think we are almost there…
somebody knows something on this? http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/forums/viewthread/9
Settle down you crazy, reactionary nutters:
J, you can't just "disagree" without providing any facts to support your opinion. Just because you want a cure tomorrow doesn't change the pace of science and clinical trials.
of course I can shooter, I just did! and the only facts I am going by is everything I read right here! and its just my opinion, we havnt even heard from follica yet! I just dont think it should really take any longer than 3yrs for someone to have something, some sort of treatment…..
Aderans and Histogen haven't even projected 3 years as a best-case-scenario. Follica and Trichoscience still haven't started trials. What on earth are you talking about?
Objectivism made this thread unique. I guess that's over.
Shooter, I think Histogen did say they would have something available in Asia in 2013.
Shooter is dead on the money here.
All these new people and some old continue to make posts and projections based on what they want and it is far removed from reality.
every time line we have ever been given has been a joke. Time lines are extremely vague guidelines and really more to show investors.
7/12/10 4:07 pm
I really agree with your earlier post. All of these companies which we discuss here we really yield no cure. However there research is 100% necessary and will be built upon down the line to cure this .
glad to see a few more realists poke their heads out :)
I seriously worry about the guys on here who continue to let themselves in 3-5 years they will have brad pitts hair. they will probably get horribly depressed
J, Shooter is right. You seem like yo are really setting your hope up high. Your only going the be let down big time!
Shooter have you ever considered a HT?
Does any one have Histogens email address? I would like to ask them a few questions directly. Cheers
Why isn't anybody here more excited about Gho's HST? Shouldn't we do everything we can to verufy if it works or not?
I say we should petition Dr Jones in Toronto (the guy who tested Acell) to test Gho's method. If this works, then it may not be a cure, but growing hair is growing hair, right?
As for ARI, Follica, Histogen and Trichoscience, the future will tell us. Right now we can't do anything about that.
What would be the best way to ask Dr Jones to try HST? Perhaps writing to Gho first?
Shooter relax, you are over the top. People have a right to predict what ever they want. Just because it dosent agree with what you think dont get your hiney hairs all wound up.
I want you to wet your hair and stick it under the air conditioner. When your done with that I want you to repeat to your self "I am not always right and thats ok,I am not always in control and that also ok"
Didn't mean to call you out for what you are but somebody had to.
In all fairness Shooter posts information on this forum based on facts! I thought that this was a place to talk about updates etc?
Of all people here Shooter has posted the most useful information. To be honest J is just crying in every post he makes about how a cure will come soon and not after 5 years.
Deep inside we all know we're being pushed around with. ACCEPT it. I recently went for the buzzcut and I'm loving it. No more yelling at the wind, no more bad hair days, and not one girl liking me less than before…
You guys should really do the same. Forget about Follica, Aderans, Histogen and all other fairytales, you will die bald, period.
There is far to much hysteria involved both positive and negative. Let these companies do the trials 1st and see what comes of it. One min they are the saviours the next they have got nothin! Let them go through due process before anythin is decided. I cant say that it will be here in 5 yrs nor on the otherside of it can anyone say its gonna take more than ten cause the truth is we all know next to nothing on this. What i will say is there is break throughs each wk now in terms of medicine like no other time before. I refuse to believe that this wont have a very positive impact on MPB. Thats how propecia happened after all. People lets be rational about this. By all means ask questions but ask the experts and not just go on hearsay. Contact Aderans and histogen and the like and see what you can find out. If it turns out that no info can be gotten then just sit and wait cause nobody on these boards can give you a definite answer. we can all speculate ,but all it is, is pure speculation. Science is moving on at a rate of knots keep the faith!
and remember..Its just my opinion!!
Im sure a treatment will be here sooner or later, when I dont know for sure. But I am optomistic considering all the news and research thats going on. I think another 5yrs is a long time from now and if they dont have something by that time then they dont know what they are doing!!
they grow brand new hearts in a dish for christ sake!!!!
I saw Dr. Cotsarelis recently gave an interview about grey hairs and what causes them. What he said wasn't interesting, but the fact he was accessable to the media is. If someone was enterprising, he could email the author of the piece and find out how to get in touch with the good doctor. Better yet, the person could ask the column writer to do a follow-up on the good doctor's research.
Just a thought. Google cotsarelis, click on news, and you should find the story.
If nothing else, we're one day closer to a cure!
Lol @ AAA. I'll give that a try. Sorry for coming across like a control-freak… it's not intentional.
I understand that we're all here doing the best we can with what we have. When I get my hands on some useful information, I pass it along. That's my primary purpose, nothing else.
@ Jordan. Yeah, I've considered hair transplants. I'm not a good candidate though.
Shooter how come your not a good candidate? Thanks
In general, good candidates do not have extensive hair loss, they respond very well to treatments like Propecia, and they have a good donor area (thick hair calibre, high density, etc).
Thanks for sharing Shooter. I know that if i go ahead with this HT, which is all booked and nothing comes out within 4 – 5 years i will most probably need another procedure. Im on Propecia which has well pretty well to be fair.
we will have in 2011 the clonagem of the hair??? the doctor Mizuguchi says that YES… http://wcbstv.com/local/baldness.hair.follicles.2.1712842.html In the article linked above Dr. Mizuguchi says pharmaceutical companies are already cloning hairs and within the next year or two they'll be able to clone thousands of hairs, send them back to the hair transplant surgeons and implant them in patients…
Washington, I think people were talking about that statement a month or two ago. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be very credible. No company has ever pursued "hair cloning." Companies like Aderans and Trichoscience are actually researching "hair multiplication" – which is further away than 2 years.
ok shooter. But, this doctor this speaking on clonagem of hairs, not of injectable cells as aderans or tricoscience etc… I am certain? it would like to have more information on this doctor, but my weak English does not allow.
No worries Washington, We understand you.
Yeah, Washington I understand what you are saying. What I meant to say is that the doctor doesn't seem to know the difference between cloning and multiplication – which is why I don't take him seriously.
What's the story on the vitamin shots to the scalp mentioned in the article linked in a previous comment.
DBS, I think those injections have vitamins, minerals and other medications in them, I saw them mentioned as a treatment for hairloss caused by lupus a few years ago and the treatment was called mesotherapy or something similar. I meant to ask if anyone with MPB had tried it but so far I haven't found anyone who has.
Unfortunately j I don't think we're going to be hearing anything of interest from the companies we know of for quite a while. Unless something comes out of the blue it's looking like we are in for a long wait.
Has anyone heard of the RapidLash product? I believe it contains a prostaglandin analog and has just become available in UK without prescription.
It's apparently very effective at improving and regrowing both eyelashes and eyebrows.
Was just wondering if this would also work on scalp hair? Anyone have any info or experience of this?
P.S. It's not cheap at £39.95 for 10mL – but I'd still pay if it worked…
this is really depressing and unbelievable at the same time….I cant believe things are not moving along faster or that we will not hear a tidbit of something soon….
I still think follica will come out with some good news…JUST MY FEELING…and I hope Im right!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know where I've been this whole time, but I just recently came upon something called Ultra Refined Transplantation!
From what I've seen, the results are amazing!
Artista, I have found Dr. Konior, who specializes in only this in the chicagoland area. See more of him here:
I have set up a consultation date to meet him. The results from what I see are so much better. They are able to pack between 40-80 grafts into 1sq cm. This is twice that of what regular HT's right now can do.
It is a bit more expensive than regular ones though. He quoted me $5,550 for 1,000 grafts, $6,500 for 1,200, $7,650 for 1,500 grafts, and $9,550 for 2,000 grafts.
I guess it all depends on where you are at your hair loss. I am only really thinning in the front so it could very well be worth it for me. I think it would be a great idea to just reconstruct a SOLID FINE hairline by this doc, then go somewhere else to fill in the mid section for much cheaper, however, this will cause to you go through more surgeries.
I cant believe I've never heard of this procedure! Faster healing, less scarring since its less invasive, overall higher survival rate. IF you look at some of the patients pics, they are very good.
BTW, this doc is part of the coalition of docs. This basically means that he KNOWS WHAT HES DOING!
Let me know your thoughts anyone who is more familiar with this.
You have got to be kidding me:
– That website belongs in the 90s
– Refined technique or not, you're still left butchered since he removed a strip of flesh from the back of your head.
– The photos are small and blurry.
Where do I sign-up.
REV, I am meeting him for a consultation.
Look rev, I really do respect what you have to say because you do add a lot to these forums, however, when you write stuff to deter peo