Startup School Beijing - <AUTHOR> http://conference.startupschool.org/ <comment><USER2> How does this work since foreigners are still not allowed to have equity in Chinese startups? Is YC getting an exemption from the government, or are they holding it in a Chinese incorporated company?

<comment><USER3> This is not my experience, owning one and having owned another. Foreigners can own outright or have a stake in multiple types of organizations, either directly or indirectly, though not all (certain protected sensitive industries such as media, finance, etc.). I suppose this is perhaps a misconception based upon some kind of isolated incidence in which a domestic Chinese registered company had issues writing a foreign investor as a direct shareholder. I am certain this can be done but wouldn't be surprised if it _may_ require alteration of the registration category of the company or the reformation of a new entity owing to the ancient (but improving!) corporate registration system which was geared toward early large foreign industrial investments which came with substantial government shepherding. I seriously doubt the assumed case that caused this misconception is some kind of conniving attempt at ineffective protectionism - far more likely just the wee end of inertia stemming from old-school socialist bureaucracy.

<comment><USER2> This is simply not true. Many foreigners have been scammed by this, working for a Chinese startup on the promise of equity, and then being eventually told it is impossible because the government won't allow it. See: [https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock- option-...](https://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option- scam.html).

If you are a foreigner working for a domestic startup, you simply aren't allowed to have equity. If the company is already listed or is a foreign company, then no problem, otherwise it simply isn't allowed.

<comment><USER4> Yes, no company can offer options if they are not public, without any exceptions as I know.

Any promise of an option through a proxy subsidiary, variable interest entity for a non listed company is not legal under the republic's law.

On other hand, a right-away stock transfer is fully legit.

If they sell a part of the stock to a listing aggregation vessel, you can have a part of this vessel's share.

Though, I keep myself a kilometer away from any financial scheme in China, and advise you do the same.

<comment><USER2> No idea why you are being downvoted, but your reply is pretty factual.

<comment><USER5> I think people are reacting negatively to: "Though, I keep myself a kilometer away from any financial scheme in China, and advise you do the same."

The idea that "any financial scheme" in China is worse than a "financial scheme" anywhere else doesn't make sense.

<comment><USER2> I would totally agree with him though. You don't want to get entangled into opaque Chinese financial schemes as a foreigner. You just don't have the knowledge (inside or otherwise) or guanxi to do it well. If something goes wrong, the legal system isn't going to help you out.

<comment><USER5> What does China have to do with it?

Do you want to be "entangled into opaque financial schemes" in the US as a native?

If something "goes wrong", do you want to rely on the legal system?

You should avoid bad investments everywhere.

<comment><USER2> The USA has a functional legal system that doesn't discriminate between foreigners and locals. If you are promised something and that can't be delivered, you don't have to just accept 没办法, it is the difference between a first world country and a third-world one.

In China, there is nothing but "bad investments", the stock market is insider trader heavy, the real estate market is bonkers, the shadow banking market...which your bank, even if it is ICBC, will actively try to sell you on, is really dodgy. Then there are crowd sourced micro finance platforms that are basically Ponzi schemes...heck, bitcoin looks like a great safe transparent investment in comparison.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I am amazed by the negativity in the comments. China is a very specific environment with its own rules - just like the US or Europe.

There you need to maintain good relations with the party, in the western world it is government officials (preferably those who are not voted into office and thus stick around).

Entering such a new, different playing field should tickle every entrepreneur's nerves.

Edit: How we fail, esp. in the fb- and now Google debate, that most of the tech we develop is dual-use and can be turned against us in an instant, escapes me.

</comment><comment><USER7> I have the priveledge of being around Chinese students who are studying in the US. Two comments I've heard recently:

'Doing research in China is the dream'

'I'll move back to China after I graduate; there's more opportinuty for startups there.'

<comment><USER8> I've had the dubious privilege of being around many college students, and in that experience the fact that they say something is true about markets or academia has very little relationship to whether it is actually true.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> you go china, you listen to CCP, then you probably will make some money by trading away your soul.

if you want to have freedom of speech there somehow, you're out immediately, the great firewall is there for a reason.

</comment><comment><USER10> How will this impact my social credit score?

Every day China is becoming even more of a nightmare dystopia, so of course YC will dive in headfirst.

</comment><comment><USER11> This is awesome. I've been wondering how hard it is to partner up, give trainings or consult in China. Without many english speakers there it seems that the Chinese language is a pre requisite but it might be getting better.

If anyone has experience to share I'd be interested. I'm guessing this kind of ventures might be easy sales to universities like Tsing Hua.

<comment><USER12> What do you have? What do you want?

<comment><USER11> Oh, I've been giving applied crypto trainings at Black Hat and different venues. I was wondering if I could train or give classes in China, or collaborate or do security consulting for companies there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> India drives the most number of applications to YC after the USA.

I wonder why China was chosen over India.

</comment><comment><USER14> I don't find Beijing to be the best place to start something like that. I'd rather prefer Shanghai which provides a much better ecosystem and access to capital than Beijing.

<comment><USER2> Shenzhen is the tech place to be in China. But if you want to make the government happy, you got to be near them in Beijing, so a lot of tech happens there also.

<comment><USER15> Is true, but Shenzhen is culturally very different from Beijing and so is Shanghai.

Shenzhen is a new city and tech stuff are there because of the influence of Guangzhou as production hub and HK as facilitator for access to the west.

Beijing is more, let me say it, artistic. Is much more vibrant, culturally, than any other city in China. This kind of mix that you can find in New Work, Berlin or London also it brings innovation. So I don't think is meant to make the government "happy". Many Chinese tech company started in Beijing form many reasons: education, capital access, culture and so on. To give you an example: Mobike was founder by an ex journalist

<comment><USER2> Many tech companies started in Beijing with obvious government boosts. There is also the major research universities (PKU and Qinghua at the top, many more at tiers just under). However, Beijing is also famous for government meddling and Black Audi-style privileged that is lacking in SZ and SH.

Take traffic for example, it is much saner in SH and SZ because the police can actually enforce the rules, whereas in BJ you get a asense they have given up because they feel like everyone is an official or is connected to one. It is a weird city even by Chinese standards.

<comment><USER15> I don't have nothing to support this thesis. I just shared my pure observation, after living there for a while, I notice it was a way more dynamic compared to the other 'cold' Chinese cities.

Yet I think my message didn't pass through since I got downvoted

<comment><USER2> I lived in Beijing for 10 years working in tech so know it pretty well. I always surprised how much smoother things were in SH in comparison to BJ. Heck, many second tier cities (like Hangzhou) were much better run than Beijing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> A country where if you disagree with any policy on social media, your kids literally can't go to school, you can't fly and you can't buy a house.

Sure, I'll invest right away!

</comment><comment><USER17> I'm not optimistic about this at all. The same metrics for success just don't apply in China. All the elements necessary for success in the US could be there, but in China the startup may get red-taped and legislated out of existence in favor of a basically identical entity with better connections to the Satanic squid in charge of the country. I predict a rapid demise for this project, sorry to say. Talented Chinese entrepreneurs, please make your way out of the country as soon as you can.

<comment><USER18> Having spent 5 years there, I have to say it's not a uniform hellscape, to say the least.

There are millions of potential Chinese entrepreneurs, idealistic and talented, who deserve to have their efforts catalyzed. That's the way forward. If you want a new generation of leaders and a more egalitarian culture, you are not alone, and I'm super happy to see YC decide to help build it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "questionable" things you will all be a part of building now. Of course, none of that will be in there, because you all already know that to say anything untoward on the matter would break the ice right out from under your feet.

And of course, that's all if you're actually "successful", unlikely given the CCP will prefer something more malleable than even the likes of Zuckerberg are willing to be. I foresee a rapid demise to this project, indeed, I pray for it, as the alternative, you guys actually succeeding, would be painful to watch given what it will involve.

<comment><USER20> Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable government treatment and takes over the nascent market), not to mention the political uncertainty of having to deal with / win the favor of arbitrary officials in the Chinese government that may have interests conflicting with your own.

And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling - suppose you create a wildly successful and helpful service for Chinese people that involves users' geographic data, private messages between individuals, or financial transactions. You won't get a say in turning over that data to authorities for any and every reason that they have for wanting it. Are you willing to actively participate in corruption and the quashing of political dissent for money?

<comment><USER21> _" And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..."_

This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen.

You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought.

Technology companies are ethically responsible for what their tools end up doing. And if they can't be bothered to develop their own ethics, the rest of us are going to have to develop some for them.

I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.

<comment><USER22> > The most amazing thing about Silicon Valley is that they all think they are > on the left side of the political spectrum, while it is totally unquestioned > that the venture capital firms should make every single decision on how > human activity is organized.

Existentialist Comics [https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/98887750761196748...](https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/988877507611967489)

<comment><USER23> The political spectrum is more like a political plane, with one axis being economic and the other being social, and with a 2 party system we've conveniently collapsed it into a line.

It's probably more accurate to say that silicon valley runs libertarian, especially those in the startup game, and especially YC and folks.

[http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> They need compete with www.sinovationventures.com.'Sinovation Ventures' has quite a few similarities to YC, for example:The founders like to support each other, etc

<comment><USER2> Kai Fu's (famous for the ballmer chair) innovation works has been around forever, it's not like China is lacking for YC-style tech incubators. However, they are all Chinese owned and managed without direct connections to SV.

<comment><USER3> There is HAX in Shenzhen, but it's focused on pre-crowdfunded consumer hardware projects. However, at their last building (they moved around 2016/2017) the space apparently interleaved the foreign cohort with a domestic intake they never talk about (to my knowledge) in foreign media. [https://hax.co/](https://hax.co/)

There are quite a few in Hong Kong as well. [https://medium.com/whub/hong- kong-accelerator-and-incubator-...](https://medium.com/whub/hong-kong- accelerator-and-incubator-programmes-you-need-to-know-568590b836c8)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> This will fail so much. If you ever had anything to do with China you know there's no path in. Especially under Xi.

Even in the old lang sine, when China was (more) open to the West it was still hard. Think about getting serious stuff stolen, threatened by people with sticks etc. Then you sue someone and the judge simply decides in favor of the Chinese party, no matter what they did.

The only option I can see is if you have privately loads of money and then marry a strong business family in China. Then through your Chinese wife you can achieve something.

<comment><USER26> Think of it this way: eventually, China will figure out and dominate this market like any other they've tackled. So if you stay in the US, you're just delaying the inevitable. This way, you're in on it, you're buying favor in a sense - in the new world order, having an pre-existing relationship with the 900 pound gorilla might come in handy.

<comment><USER25> Okay interesting point of view. So you still fail but you fail earlier than the other western competitors and you might fail less. Can't say much against it.

<comment><USER26> > So you still fail

You do?

> Can't say much against it.

You could say it's a poor prediction and explain why. For example, it isn't exactly an inevitability, even though it seems fairly plausible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Will there be a livestream? Would be a great opportunity to try out instantaneous real-time audio and video translation in english, chinese and japanese ;)

Baidu Shows Off Its Instant Pocket Translator

[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610623/baidu-shows-off- it...](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610623/baidu-shows-off-its-instant- pocket-translator/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Great timing! Right in line with our Series A. Happy to meet any HN'ers! Email in profile.

</comment><comment><USER28> When will original online Startup School start this year? Who knows?

<comment><USER29> Are you talking about this? [https://www.startupschool.org/](https://www.startupschool.org/)

I don't understand if this is something online or not, it mentions attending group office hours.

<comment><USER30> It's all completely virtual. All "attendance" in the course is done online, including group office hours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Interesting... I'll be in Bejing these dates, I may stop in!

</comment><comment><USER32> to any of the organizers... is it possible to attend to the talks even though I'm starting a company based off -at the moment- Vietnam?

</comment><comment><USER33> Very exciting news!

I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global. My biggest problem with Silicon Valley is its ideological uniformity and the increasing willingness to use their companies/products as vehicles to push their ideologies.

China would be in an excellent position to address the part of the Western market that is increasingly alienated by this push. They can build SV tech clones for the local market, and then expand to the global market by offering ideologically more neutral (from Western perspective) alternatives to SV tech.

Chinese startups will have their own flaws, but at least we will have a choice.

<comment><USER34>
        I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global.

Why would you want that? As long as the chinese goverment prevent foreign companies to buy chinese companies no one should be happy about chinese startups going global. The chinese goverment is highly corrupt and only supports actions which benefits the chinese. That's why there are so many "joint ventures".

<comment><USER35> I agree with the corrupt part, but it's interesting that you say "the chinese government...only supports actions which benefits the chinese" as if it's a horrible thing. Every government does what is best for their country... Being upset about it is like getting mad at fire for being hot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Of all the provinces, why Beijing?

<comment><USER4> >Of all the provinces, why Beijing?

Because this guy lives there > [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Xi_Jinpi...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Xi_Jinping_March_2017.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> 北京欢迎你。

</comment><comment><USER38> Thank you so much for displaying that YC has taken a step toward accepting China's desires to rule the world and a step away from supporting free and open cultural discourse. I think I'm going to be avoiding HN for a while, so that I can avoid the pro-Chinese propaganda and policy which is likely to result from this move.

</comment><comment><USER39> New Pied Piper?

<comment><USER40> Hah that's what crossed my mind too :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> To people debating whether China are the good guys or not - hundreds of thousands Falun Dafa practicioners are locked up in Chinese concentration camps. Thousands have died of torture. Many more are suffering it everyday. China is ruled by a cruel evil regime. No question about it. You won't hear people involved with China talk about it. You won't be allowed into China if you do.

<comment><USER42> Please don't take HN threads into national/political flamewar. Regardless of how correct your atrocity assessments are, this is off topic and violates the site guidelines.

Others have been violating the guidelines in this thread too, but at least the other subthreads haven't gone completely out to the generic political sea.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER41> Dang, they're not "my assesments". They're cold, hard, well-known facts relevant to the discussion. Almost all the comments are political. The standard HN policy on threads that go too political is to just nix the whole thing. You know it and I know it.

<comment><USER42> Even if that were true, the greater part of "assessment" is in selecting which "cold, hard, well-known facts" to mention, which not to mention, and what weighting to place on them. The facts don't tell you that. Humans make those choices, and there are infinitely many to choose from.

Your description of how we moderate HN isn't really accurate. When a story is nothing but partisan politics, we may kill the thread—though more often users flag it first—but those are just the easy cases. The difficult cases are when a story is both on topic for HN, like this one, but also has overlap into intensely political areas, like this one. Then our job becomes more fine- grained, trying to support thoughtful, specific discussion and dampen generic flamewars.

<comment><USER41> Mention what? What facts may one omit that justify this ongoing atrocity? Perhaps you're just ignorant about it. In which case it only goes to show that it's an interesting, relevant fact people should be aware of.

Yes, I imagine my comment might excite strong feelings more so than others - because such an atrocity does. For good reasons.

The discussion has clearly settled on the moral aspects of YC doing business in China. Which seems okay with you - as long as you don't call out the actual atrocities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Out of all places? Why???

And...

>Saturday, May 19, 2018 (5 月19 日,周六) >Tsinghua University (清华大学) Beijing, China (中国北京)

This is just... they could've just went for the central committee party school if they wanted to get high profile handshakes that much

<comment><USER43> >Out of all places? Why???

"Since China is the fastest growing tech ecosystem in the world and a massive center of new innovations - we want to meet more founders from China!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> How does this square with [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16918480](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16918480) ?

<comment><USER18> BTW, that's a link to a discussion of the NYTimes article "Wanted at Chinese Startups: Attractive Women to Ease Coders' Stress".

Likewise, isn't Hollywood the place with Harvey Weinstein? Must be purely evil.

No, China is big and intellectually diverse. Many young idealists who deserve to be catalyzed. Source: Lived there 2011-2016.

<comment><USER45> Most people commenting on these China posts have a superficial, at best, understanding of China.</comment></comment></comment>


BSD Sockets Addressing - <AUTHOR> https://idea.popcount.org/2019-12-06-addressing/ <comment><USER2> Somewhat related, IPv4 addresses can also be represented in a shorter classfull form NET.HOST, like

      10.1 == 10.0.0.1
      192.168.1 == 192.168.0.1

While it has practically no use in today's CIDR [1] internet, it's still a useful shortcut for home-networks, etc (I have my home network configured as 10.0/24)

      $ ping 10.1
      PING 10.1 (10.0.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data.
      64 bytes from 10.0.0.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.181 ms

I've also recently stumbled on some software that no longer parses this address form. Can't remember where though.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter- Domain_Routing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing)

<comment><USER3> 1980s style IPv4 address syntax has been deprecated for 20 years:

[https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2553#page-31](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2553#page-31)

[https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition...](https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition/functions/inet_pton.html)

Anything that continues to support the ancient syntax is in serious need of fixing with extreme prejudice.

<comment><USER4> Why does it need to be "fixed" if it works fine? Just because is it is deprecated doesn't mean it is broken.

<comment><USER5> It means it will be broken, and usually is deprecated because it _is_ broken in some way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Author here. This article is part of series.

(1) Creating sockets

(2) Addressing

soon to come

(3) AF_INET6 archeology: scope id and flowinfo

(4) bind/connect

I'm trying to build an audience, so make sure to follow me on twitter [https://twitter.com/majek04](https://twitter.com/majek04)

(I don't like harvesting emails, so opted for twitter)

<comment><AUTHOR> I've read your post about a brief history select(2) and kind of tried to go down with archaeology as to how the BSD sockets API came to be the way it is (struct sockaddr before struct sockaddr_storage, connect and bind being separate states, read/write v. recv/send), but it's been very hard trying to get complete documentation on the evolution since the first BBN drafts.

Food for extra thought I suppose; there's probably a lot of knowledge and trivia to be gleaned from the historical evolution of the interfaces, and I'd imagine you're in a better position to actually sink your fangs into this.

Incidentally, your post is time travelling and claims being from Dec 6, 2019.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> A major gotcha for using file-based UNIX sockets for communicating with containers is that UNIX sockets have far shorter path length limits than anything else. This bit me when I implemented Nomad's Consul Connect integration and used a UNIX socket to allow Envoy in a container to contact Consul on the host:

[https://github.com/hashicorp/nomad/issues/6516](https://github.com/hashicorp/nomad/issues/6516)

<comment><USER8> It'd be easy enough to fix in the kernel. The challenge would be overcoming the chorus of "no". It's hard to add fixes even for clear and long-standing problems when you have to respond to "do we REALLY need this change?" with an overwhelming amount of evidence.

<comment><USER9> The size for `sockaddr_storage` is not defined by POSIX, but `sockaddr_un` is defined, and you can't just change the `sun_path` to a pointer, so to increase `sun_path` you would have to increase the `sockaddr_storage` struct size. This comes with other downsides, first is incompatibility with other OSes, most OSes seem to be around 104-109 bytes. Second new problem would be that with any larger value each socket call would have to copy more data, even if they are not unix sockets. If you change it to something that looks sensible like `PATH_MAX` you end up increasing memory requirements for any application that works with sockets.

<comment><USER8> The relevant functions take size parameters. We don't have to limit ourselves to sockaddr_storage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's always bugged me that AF_UNIX addresses have a relatively short length limit. If you look at the actual kernel ABI, you'll see that the sun_addr structure can be made as long as necessary. The kernel could support long unix socket addresses without new APIs.

I also don't like abstract sockets at all. They're vulnerable to squatting attacks. The nice thing about non-abstract unix sockets is that they take advantage of the filesystem permissions that everyone already understands. When possible, I prefer putting things into a single namespace.

Unix sockets (of the non-abstract sort) also need a way to atomically unlink an existing socket and bind in its place. Doing that as two operations is pretty common, but it's racy.

<comment><USER10> > Unix sockets (of the non-abstract sort) also need a way to atomically unlink > an existing socket and bind in its place. Doing that as two operations is > pretty common, but it's racy.

To atomically unlink an existing socket and bind another in place, without races, you should be able to first bind a new socket to a temporary name in the same directory, and then use rename(2) to atomically replace the existing name.

There may be queued connections that need accept(2) in the old socket after the rename, but that's not a race condition.

<comment><USER8> My complaint wasn't detailed enough, What I really want is a way to atomically rebind a socket if nobody else is listening on that socket --- the stale process cleanup case. I _want_ the bind to fail of a socket is live. Does that make sense? Haven't had enough coffee yet today.

<comment><USER10> It makes sense but I don't think it actually gains you anything because of a subtlety around races.

If you want the rebind to fail only when the socket is bound by another process, it may be the other process is _about_ to close the socket, and your atomic-rebind would result in the socket not bound by either process.

That outcome is identical to the outcome from the available method, where you attempt connect() first and only bind-and-rename if the connect() fails with an appropriate error. When there's no race, you always get the desired outcome of the socket bound by exactly one process, but if the processes are racing, the result can be the socket not bound by either process.

Because both methods produce the same outcome in the race case, and the only difference is an _unobservable_ difference in each process' logical clocks (you can't tell which events really happened first), both methods actually have the same race properties.

If you want to _always_ end up with exactly one server running, and to _always_ avoid taking away the socket from an existing server which is running just fine, I think you need to involve some protocol. You can try connect() and then if it succeeds, send a request "are you shutting down?". An appropriate type of connect() error or "yes" means it's safe to bind a new socket and rename over, otherwise leave the socket alone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've always found it annoying that we have these multiple types of socket addressing, which were all invented before there was any concept of a URL, and yet there's no clear bijective mapping between arbitrary socket address formats, and URL origins. I.e., you can't just create a URL where the origin part is specified as a Unix domain socket path. (Or any other kind of format besides AF_INET and AF_INET6, despite there having been many other weird historical ones.)

Which means everyone who needs their client to support connecting to an RPC server over both AF_INET/6 sockets and AF_UN sockets, needs to invent some custom metaformat above URLs for specifying that they want a connection through a Unix socket path. Kind of ridiculous, really.

<comment><USER12> I'm not sure there would be any difficulty supporting Unix socket paths in your URI scheme? I guess you can just steal the semantics from the file:// scheme.

Or do you want the same URI scheme to support all your different transport protocols? It kind of feels like missing the point of URIs, after all the whole idea is that your application can interchangeably handle different kinds of URIs for different use cases.

<comment><USER11> Yes, in my ideal world, URIs would be a sequence of "steps" to resolving a resource, where each step starts off with a nominal "resolver object" it's working against, and then names a scheme (method) available upon that resolver object, where the rest of that step of the URL are then method parameters to that abstract call, resulting in either another "resolver object", or a fully- resolved resource. The scheme of the final step then determines the protocol for the interaction with the resource.

This is somewhat, but not perfectly, analogous to how 9P mounts work in Plan9. In both models, you start off with your local namespace, which has servers mounted on it like /mnt/web or /mnt/ftp. These are the "schemes" available on the initial resolver object. You then build a path to a virtual file within one of these mountpoints (/net/tcp, say), where that path turns out to point to a resource that describes (in a format another 9P server understands) how to create another mount representing that connection.

The difference between the two models is that, with 9P, you'd have to take this descriptor file and mount it yourself; whereas in my model, you wouldn't see a descriptor file, but rather another already-mounted server, with its own schemes as its root-level exposed virtual directories.

Pretending 9P worked this way, you'd be able to have a namespace path that looks like, e.g.:

        /net/tcp/foo.com/80/http/patha/pathb/a=b/c=d

Back in URL land, this kind of path would correspond to a "meta-URL" that looks like e.g.:

        tcp:foo.com:80#http:/patha/pathb?a=b&c=d

where the "#" symbol now takes on new significance as a command for the URL resolver, to address the next part of the path to the resolver-object discovered by resolving everything on the meta-URL so far. (Which perfectly subsumes #'s current use, since browsers interpret a # as identifying a particular DOM-tree node within a document—i.e. as using the resource acquired from the previous URL-step as a resolver to find the next object.)

You could do all sorts of crazy things with this, too, like creating URLs that represent files available within archives that exist as HTTP streams, e.g.:

        tcp:/foo.com/80#http:/foo/bar.tar#file:/index.html

Or adding DNS or TLS arbitrarily into protocol stacks that weren't designed for them:

        ip:/dns/foo.com#tcp#tls#irc:%23room</comment></comment></comment>


Ranking the Top 50 Start-Ups - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444813104578018940187057924.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Actual list is at this link:

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000087239639044481310457801...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444813104578018940187057924.html#project%3DNBT092012%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive)</comment>


Hope Rekindled for ABC Conjecture Proof - <AUTHOR> https://www.quantamagazine.org/20151221-hope-rekindled-for-abc-proof/ <comment><USER2> I don't know that I've ever read an article tracking the progress of a math conference before...

I tend to think of conferences as a tinge to exchange some ideas, stir the brain, and plant seeds that will grow during the next few months of steady work. It's pretty rare for me at least to expect real breakthroughs, unless I'm going to collaborate directly with a particular person on a problem where we've both die our homework beforehand. It's interesting to read a piece where there's an expectation of fundamental progress in the conference environment... makes me think a mathematical hack a thon might be fun....

<comment><USER3> This is how AIM works, basically. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_of_Mathemat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Institute_of_Mathematics)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I love the ABC Conjecture, it's so romantic: a statement about the fundamental relationship of addition,, multiplication, and factorization. I really hope they crack it in a way that I can understand before I die.</comment>


Two Kindle Design Flaws - <AUTHOR> http://mm207.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/two-kindle-design-flaws.html

<comment><USER2> There's a difference between a design that you use the first time and a design that you use all the time. It doesn't make sense to change the buttons just so you can figure them easier on the first time (I had no problems by the way with it). When I'm spending large stretches of time reading I actually enjoy having the buttons on each side go to the next page. I'm not staying in the exact same position as I was an hour ago, or maybe the same side. If you're lying somewhere you want to spend as little effort as possible just to go to the next page.

<comment><USER3> I agree. The button placement makes sense for commodity sake, and that should trump first use in this case, as it is not something you take long to learn.

I have a touch, and this is one of the small issues I have with it. If I'm holding it with my left hand, my thumb will have to travel a larger distance to turn the page, than if I'm holding it with my right. It's not much of a problem though, and it beats having to physically turn a page. But I wish there was an option to have touching the screen on either side turn the page, and if I want to go back, I could just use the swipe gesture.

As for this guy's first issues, my memory is a little hazy, but I could swear that my kindle came with a drawing of the device in the display clearly indicating where to turn the device on. Is it different on non touch kindles?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Jeff is a great designer. He completely got that there's left and right handed people in the world and the catered his design towards that. While you hold your Kindle (left handed or right handed) you always have your thumb on the next page button and you can easily slide your thumb upwards to go back.

</comment><comment><USER5> I was annoyed by the page turn buttons the first time I used them. But the button placement works really well for reading while lolling around, it's actually one of the ways in which reading a kindle is more pleasant than reading a paperback novel.</comment>


Brain Predicts 20ms into the Future - <AUTHOR> https://thoughtscoop.com/predicting-the-future/ <comment><USER2> I knew that you were going to post this.</comment>


Show HN: Owlorbit – Know where your coworkers are and keep your business running - <AUTHOR> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.timnuwin.owlorbit&ref=hn <comment><AUTHOR> I just created this Android mobile-app. Think of this as Slack with maps integration.

Users can create chat-rooms and see where everyone is on the map. You can get routes, create meet-up points, hide your visibility on a per-channel basis, have quick access to call or email the users. Search for common-points of interests and create a meet-up point there.

In terms of security, I am storing only the very last longitude/latitude that the user sends to me and clearing previous locations. That means I am not building up a history-log of locations.

This will be free for consumers, but I will eventually charge businesses as this potentially could help bosses keep tabs on their employees or help organize companies in the event of a disaster.

So definitely sign-up as soon as possible! I'll be locking up open-beta in a few days and registration will switch to invite-only (where only registered users can invite other users).

<comment><USER2> Curious if Owlorbit is available on other platforms.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Starminder – periodic reminders about your starred GitHub projects - <AUTHOR> https://starminder.xyz <comment><AUTHOR> OP here, happy to answer any questions.

The project lives here: [https://github.com/nkantar/Starminder](https://github.com/nkantar/Starminder)</comment>


Show HN: Whimso – preference based place search engine - <AUTHOR> https://whimso.com <comment><AUTHOR> Whimso is a free prototype for a larger unrealised travel tech project which we've released as a fast and simple place search engine engine based on user preferences.

We've had feedback that it's handy for finding vegan/vegetarian food nearby - should we re-release it as a plant-based restaurant finder?</comment>


Show HN: ianal, a npm license checker - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/franciscop/ianal <comment><USER2> "'npm' is not in the npm registry" when trying to install it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Because I was installing it from local I completely forgot to publish it, thanks for the tip! Published now

<comment><USER2> Thanks I will try it

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> sorry to go OT but...isn't the name a bit awkward?! apart from that, nice tiny tool ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess it depends on the background, I wanted to keep the spirit of I Am Not A Lawyer that I have seen so many times on forums, but I guess if you haven't seen it before it _does_ look awkward.</comment></comment>


The legacy of NeXT lives on in OS X - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/12/the-legacy-of-next-lives-on-in-os-x

<comment><USER2> I'm guessing most people with any interest in obscure OS trivia already knew this. Although it is fascinating.</comment>


'The Dress' Inspires Outpouring of Cool Optical Illusions - <AUTHOR> http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/dress-inspires-outpouring-cool-optical-illusions/story?id=29269033

<comment><USER2> _Finally_ something interesting comes out of this whole thing. Who doesn't love a good optical illusion? (Well, blind people, I guess, have little use for them. Nevermind.)</comment>


Show HN: CMS for Notion Pages (With a Twist) - <AUTHOR> https://pageably.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Made a little project that I'd love to get feedback on.

The Notion ecosystem is thriving with new and excellent Notion-to-website tools. Each has its own unique approach. Pageably's approach let's you augment your Notion pages in ways you otherwise couldn't, like adding a Stripe checkout button or adding authentication.</comment>


Ask HN: Lean Validation of AI Startups - <AUTHOR> Hi, I'm Software Engineer building AI projects for almost four years. I've been wanting to start selling AI products to businesses but I don't know how to validate an idea quickly, without spending time/money developing a demo.
For example, I think that a software for the construction industry that uses cameras to detect if the workers are using the proper security equipment would be a good and useful product. I can ask and then find someone from a potential company that could be interested in this kind of product.
The problem is what to show to this potential client in order to get a deal. I could develop a demo, but I think it's too expensive to build a good model. If I want to test another usecase (for example, house floor identification for real estate) I'd then have to build a model for that.
Do you have experience on this industry doing something similar to what I describe? What are you doing to validate quickly if an idea is good or not?
Maybe a good way would be to start working as a consultant/freelancer, validating demand for a product this way. But that is a slower path and you need time to work as a consultant/freelancer. <comment><USER2> So you first issue is data. For any problem you would probably need a sizable training dataset.

Hence, your idea should come after the data, not before.

In this case, I would suggest going to companies that already have data (for example support tickets), which they do not use.

After you have data, I would use auto ml.

<comment><AUTHOR> But you would need a company to give you data with nothing visible on return. Do you think a company would do that?

<comment><USER2> Yes. For example, if your problem is important for construction companies, than they will give you data to solve it (otherwise, how would they solve it). In return, they will get to use your models.

In any rate, unless you have a dataset of your own, the ML part does not matter.

I think that any ML project today, it more of a solution engineering type project, and not a product.</comment></comment></comment>


Lost City Discovered in the Honduran Rain Forest - <AUTHOR> http://news-beta.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/150302-honduras-lost-city-monkey-god-maya-ancient-archaeology/

<comment><USER2> When I lived in Honduras I always heard stories about La Mosquitia being a stronghold for drug trafficking. The carribean proximity combined with rainforest terrain coverage meant that it was a nice safe place to lay low and coordinate operations. From the looks of their security detail, I'd say it appears that those stories were more than rumors.

</comment><comment><USER3> Wikipedia has a nice bit of background to Theodore Morde who claimed to have made the original find back in 1941: [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Morde](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Morde)</comment>


Multi-Factor Authentication in Mint - <AUTHOR> https://mint.lc.intuit.com/announcements/1286158 <comment><AUTHOR> I don't understand the security layers between Mint users, Mint, users' bank accounts, and banks very well... It seems like Mint has to store users' bank authentication information unencrypted in order to be able to log in as a bot on the users' behalf... If this is the case, how does multi-factor help security on the Mint <-> Bank layer?

Is this actually an improvement to security? Or is this theater? Mint seems like a large target because of all the logins it holds, but if they hold credentials in the clear anyway, I'm not sure how multi-factor protects against a attack against Mint...

Any insights?</comment>


If You Can LLC - <AUTHOR> https://www.ifyoucan.com/ <comment><USER2> I don't have kids yet. My first impression was along the lines of "oh great, taking helicopter parenting to the next level". After thinking a bit more, and considering the real concern I have about how I'll manage my kids' devices (and whether I'll even give them a smartphone), I think this could be pretty cool.

I'm extremely ambivalent on how people, especially kids use technology. When I was young, it was pretty easy for my parents to control since everything routed through the home wifi. With smartphones that gate is easily avoided. Being able to monitor what they're doing with a phone would be very important to me while my kids are young to young-ish.</comment>


James Altucher – I Quit - <AUTHOR> http://jamesaltucher.quora.com/I-Quit?share=1

<comment><USER2> If your job sucks and makes you depressed, you probably should quit. If you can't quit, you should re-examine your values. If you are willing to give up your happiness for someone else's more power to you, but then you better be willing to live with that decision or else go re-examine your values again.</comment>


Redis reliable queues with Lua scripting - <AUTHOR> http://antirez.com/post/250?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+antirez+%28antirez+weblog%29 <comment><USER2> Pretty slick. A few questions:

* Can you use Lua scripts with blocking operations like BRPOP? Or is the strategy here to just poll if the queue is empty? (Either is a usable strategy.)

* Sometimes you will have particular queue items that cause the processor to die, because of some weird bug. It can be helpful to stick those into a separate "holding area" after a few failures, and send out warning emails to someone who can fix the problem.

* How do you monitor the number of jobs queued and in progress? You could get all the items in the list with LRANGE and look at their timestamps (if any), but if the items are large and there are a few million of them, this could be irritatingly slow. Monitoring is super-important!

That said, Redis can be really useful for writing queues. At Greplin we're pushing so much data through a Redis-based queue system that we actually managed to max out the operations-per-second on EC2 Large instances, and had to shard across a few servers. The basic idea is that we encode everything as protocol buffers, LPUSH it into a waiting queue, and have the processor do something similar to this:

1\. RPOPLPUSH moves the item at the head of the waiting queue into a one- element in-progress queue. The name of the queue includes a counter for how many unsuccessful processing attempts have been made (starting at 0).

2\. Process the item.

3\. LPUSH the output into zero or more waiting queues for the next processing stage, and delete the in-progress queue. Unless there was an error, in which case things get complicated. :-(

There are a surprising number of complicated little issues that come up when making queueing systems for heavy production use! For example, how do we coordinate the topology, and which servers to connect to? If one of our EC2 instances goes down and takes a Redis master with it, how do we seamlessly switch over to the slave? How do we shunt aside "killer" items for later processing after we've fixed the bugs that they were causing? What happens when there's a load spike and queue length goes through the roof, and the Redis servers start using up all their memory?

These problems all have solutions -- for example, you can build most of the coordination and rate-limiting stuff with Zookeeper -- and for the most part I've been very happy with Redis. It's been very solid and reliable, with convenient operations, easy administration, and great speed! I just think that queueing systems are an area ripe for improvement.

</comment><comment><USER3> Queues are now a "common place". But we need to ask a lot of questions before using "reliable queues":

i) Has it acknowledgment?

ii) Has it support for transactions?

iii) Has it persistence?

iv) Contention management?

And this is beyond talking about AMQP, interoperability and many other questions.

</comment><comment><USER4> Nice example of how lua scripting will improve the usability of Redis !

A nitpick, the described queue is First In First Out (which is the natural ordering for a queue).</comment>


Ask HN: What do people think of FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early)? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I think its stupid. Retirement is boring, youll end working anyway just to have something to do. Id rather have an enjoyable job and lots of sparetime now that im young rather than slave away my youth so that I can retire early.

<comment><USER3> I don't think it is stupid. Retirement in this sense doesn't mean "sit at home and do nothing all day" \- it just means getting out of the rat race and stop working for money at the job one hates. Once the financial pressure is gone, we can work on things that actually matter to us and those that we enjoy.

I do get your point about slaving away the youth though.

<comment><USER4> There are different interpretations of what FIRE is. FIRE in the sense of saving money in order to be less reliant on potentially unfulfilling jobs is certainly a good idea.

However, FIRE as some kind of end-goal to be achieved by all means necessary is unlikely to make many people happy. Reading the financial independence subreddit, many people think of FIRE as some holy grail - like they will finally be happy once have saved up enough money that they can quit a job they hate. I dont think its healthy to obsess over some kind of medium-distant goal and put all your energy towards it thinking "I will be happy when I'm financially independent".

The old cliche "life is a journey, not a goal" really applies here. Some (though not many) even argue that you shouldn't have kids because they cost so much and will delay your FIRE.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's a reasonable approach.

From my perspective it's not so much about the "retire early" but rather about the "financial independence" part. Even if you don't intend to retire early approaches like FIRE are extremely useful for establishing or restoring financial sanity.

If you think about it it's really not (or at least it shouldn't be) all that novel an idea: Consistently spend less than you earn.

It's just that industrial societies at large have become used to a rampant consumerism that favours spending more than you earn.

More traditional retirement plans also disproportionately benefit banks and insurance companies.

</comment><comment><USER6> My interest in FIRE can really be boiled down to this scene: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ)

I'm on board and actively pursing FIRE. I'm not sure if I'll actually choose to retire when I hit the magic number (~20x your yearly expenses), but it does provide me with a sense of satisfaction and stability.

I think a lot of the FIRE community over evangelizes the "RE" portion of FIRE, but that may just be a reflection of the high stress/high pay types of jobs that many FIRE pursuers find themselves in.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm actively pursuing FIRE. On pace to reach it in 2023. I think every software developer who wants to write code their whole career must actively be trying to reach FIRE by age 50. Ageism is rampant in this industry.

If you want to be a manager or founder or whatever I think you can work past 50 but FIRE is still worth pursuing.

And if you love working on projects that matter to YOU there is nothing better than achieving Financial Independence.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are so right about ageism. I am in my mid-forties and I am already feeling it. I have been rejected from positions because of my age. The feedback most of the time: I am not a good cultural fit.

I do not get lured by Pool table, office BBQs, bowling nights etc. I just want to write good software.

<comment><USER8> is it bad if i'm 31 and I don't get lured by office events either?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Based on the salaries of people who comment here, I assume most can retire in about 5-10 years of work.

For the rest of us, I don't think we'll ever retire.

</comment><comment><USER10> I find it fascinating and very condusive to my personality.

However, the amounts of income you need to be able generate to truely get there seems to be... ambitious.

</comment><comment><USER11> I see lots of people saying they do this on the blind app but i've never met anyone yet who seems to actually be getting there. best way to get wealth as a software engineer is working consistently at high paying jobs, save your money and invest it, don't try for riches at startups.

<comment><USER12> I'm doing it, my neighbor is doing it, many people I know retired already and are doing fine. You have so much more time doing more interesting stuff.

<comment><USER13> How much time it took you to get there once you consciously started working towards it? And what path you took? If you don't mind me asking :)

<comment><USER14> Not the original poster however get where? Everyone has their own goal. The basic fire goal is $1M with a 3-4% withdrawal rate however you can "fatfire" and look to maintian the same lifestyle you have when you were earning, which is easier to do for someone who has start-up shares, or owns a business/commercial real estate. You just have to start and also know that the younger you are when you start the more your money grows via compound interest (especially if you are using the index fund investment approach.)

<comment><USER11> 30 or 40k is not enough to live on comfortably in most of the us, much less the larger west cost cities. Is the goal that low? Seems way to low.

My home owner's taxes are more than half that. Probably the idea is live in a place that's less expensive (which is not stupid), but I also want to live in a place with interesting things and people and good climate and jobs and schools, leading to a 'nicer' city I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> i don't get the "retire early" part. who wants to be a retiree for ever? But financial independence is sweet freedom

<comment><USER16> Think of retire early as a polite way of saying having fuck you money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Employers love it because it encourages their workers to keep their head down and work hard. Retirement is just around the corner.

</comment><comment><USER18> I don't come anywhere close to making enough money to attempt it. Sounds awesome though.

</comment><comment><USER19> Clearly, a passing fad.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_economy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRE_economy)

</comment><comment><USER20> I think some of FIRE's basic mental models provide a useful perspective to help make some decisions, but like many things in life, it's not great to focus on one perspective myopically, to the exclusion of everything else.

While accumulating and investing savings it is reasonably useful to keep in mind your savings ratio:

      savings_ratio := (income - expenses) / income

If you choose to focus on growing investments, make decisions to maximise the savings ratio, subject to other constraints. You can try to reduce expenses, or increase income. Or both. Sometimes you can find win-win decisions that increase your savings ratio while also giving you some other benefit (e.g. start riding a bicycle to work instead of commuting on public transport -- this saves money and can be more enjoyable, provided conditions for cycling aren't too foul and you live close enough).

Focusing on maximising savings ratio assumes that your expenses while saving will be similar to your expenses once retired. This may or may not be true -- for example, maybe you have high-paying work in a higher cost of living area, but you can move to a lower cost of living area when you no longer need a reliable day job.

Once retired, we want our investment income to cover our expected expenses:

      cash_flow_in + cash_flow_out >= 0

      cash_flow_in = capital_invested * (expected_nominal_return - inflation) * (1 - effective_tax_rate)

      cash_flow_out = expected_annual_expenses_when_retired

We can calculate our progress by the ratio cash_flow_in / -cash_flow_out .

For example, let's plug some numbers in:

      expected_annual_expenses_when_retired = -20,000 USD / yr

      capital_invested = 200,000 USD
      expected_nominal_return = 6% (say we're 100% invested in the US stock market)
      inflation = 2%
      effective_tax_rate = 5% (complete guess, i don't live in the US)

So

      expected_investment_income = 200,000 * (0.06 - 0.02) * (1 - 0.05) = 7600 USD / yr

In this example, our progress to covering our expected annual retirement expenses with net real investment returns is 7600 / 20000 = 38% .

There are calculators to estimate the time until retirement. Here's a simple one: [https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement?income=70...](https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement?income=70000&initialBalance=0&expenses=25200&annualPct=5&withdrawalRate=4)

All that said, real life is unpredicable and complicated, it might be good to leave a bit of margin in there to handle unpredictable events such as stock market crashes, large one-off expenses to repair a house, contingency for emergency medical expenses, etc. It's arguably not a great idea to be 100% invested in stocks at the moment, let alone US stocks.

Potentially useful resources:

      http://www.efficientfrontier.com/
      https://www.bogleheads.org/</comment>


Why More Immigrants Are An Answer to the Coming Boomer Entitlement Mess - <AUTHOR> http://robertreich.org/post/509193412/why-more-immigrants-are-an-answer-to-the-coming-boomer <comment><USER2> I'm surprised to read such an absurdly simplistic idea from such a celebrated "smart man". Note how he glosses over, entirely, any possible unintended (yet certainly foreseeable) impacts on the economy, infrastructure, culture, and societal stability -- somehow a slowly recovering (and still weak) economy will make any concerns moot.

And, what kind of immigrants? Any? Really cheap labor forces that will drive down wages? Mediocre talent? Maybe just anybody? If he wants to make a proposal like this, he should elaborate a bit. It reads like a late night "brain fart".

Overall, it sounds like he's all for anything to make _his_ generations' retirement easy...too bad for the generations to follow.

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought reason we had a problem with social security was because we ignored the underfunding problem for years. My entire life I've been hearing "don't count on social security when you get older", and I'm no spring chicken.</comment>


Knome – a partnership between GNOME and KDE - <AUTHOR> https://knome.org/ <comment><USER2> Was like WTF! Then i remembered that it was april fools

</comment><comment><USER3> how dare</comment>


U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-28/u-s-planning-to-announce-criminal-charges-related-to-huawei-jrgrda0q <comment><USER2> In China, stealing trade secrets is called "打破技术封锁" (breaking the technical blockade). The U.S. does not even need to collect evidence through investigation. Just by reading Chinese news reports and textbooks, you will find there are lots of Chinese nationalist stories about their hero technician / scientists steal western technologies. They are literally proud of it.

I heard from my Chinese friends who work in the US universities in the field of EE, CS, material, etc.. Huawei actually has personnel monitoring their university webpages. Add working project to your webpage, Huawei could call/email you the next day (in Chinese of course) if they find something they want to buy to get ahead.

<comment><USER3> As one who speaks Chinese, I find what you said is a blatant lie.

In deed, "打破技术封锁" means to break the technical blockade, but by means of independent innovation, not stealing "trade secrets". Given China has the biggest force of engineers and scientists in the world, it is not so hard to understand.

Fact check, Huawei is the only full 5G solution provider in the world; whereas no such company can be found in the US.

So when you or your friends think the US has much to be stolen by China, think twice.

<comment><USER4> I don't get it. What you wrote and what you're responding to are not in contradiction with one another. On what basis is what GP said a lie? What relevance does 5G have to anything?

Progress in technology is progress regardless.

I just watched a few episodes of Black Mirror so I'm in cynical mode. I'm not trying to be argumentative but it just felt more like a non-sequitur than anything...

Progress is good (mostly), though, right?

As for which economies that progress happens to bolster, well, let the chips fall where they may, I suppose.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> These look like serious charges:

Defrauding four large banks into clearing transactions with Iran in violation of international sanctions.

Conspiracy to obstruct justice by moving employees out of the United States so they could not be called as witnesses before a grand jury in Brooklyn.

Conspiracy to defraud the United States by impairing, impeding, obstructing and defeating, through deceitful and dishonest means, the lawful governmental functions of an agency of the United States.

Money laundering conspiracy.

Conspiracy to steal trade secrets about robotics from a competitor, T-Mobile.

Source: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/us/politics/meng- wanzhou-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/us/politics/meng-wanzhou- huawei-iran.html)

If the charges are true, I hope Ms. Meng is extradited and prosecuted, and the company barred from operating in the US.

But if this is just a bargaining chip to be exchanged for a few worthless face-saving trade deal "wins" for this administration, it will be disgrace.

<comment><USER6> >But if this is just a bargaining chip to be exchanged for a few worthless face-saving trade deal "wins" for this administration, it will be disgrace

If letting one person off the hook can benefit all americans through better trade, how is that a disgrace?

China has apparently offered to balance the trade deficit with the US within 6 years

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-18/china- is-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-18/china-is-said-to- offer-path-to-eliminate-u-s-trade-imbalance)

their economy is also tanking rapidly based on what their government can't cover up, the quarterly reports of US companies

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-28/nvidia- cu...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-28/nvidia-cuts-outlook- reflecting-weaker-economy-especially-china)

So by basically any measure the US is winning the trade war

<comment><USER7> >If letting one person off the hook can benefit all americans through better trade, how is that a disgrace?

it's a disgrace for the rule of law and an independent judiciary.

<comment><USER6> lol, our justice system has been a joke for a long time. James Clapper and John Brennan are walking free after violating every American's constitutional rights and then lying to congress about it. Meanwhile Edward Snowden is a wanted criminal around the world for exposing their rape of the US constitution and roger stone has his house raided by 29 FBI agents with CNN filming in the driveway for lying to congress.

There's a Navy veteran rotting in Jail right now for taking a picture of his sub on his last day because it was technically classified info. Hillary Clinton is enjoying life despite having hundreds of pieces of classified info on her server

There are two tiers of justice in our country, get used to it. At least in this case it would benefit the average american

<comment><USER8> Agreed, with a grain of salt.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Speaking as a Canadian, this is already old news for us. There have been lively debates over on /r/canada, which went very one-sided (understandably) after China arrested two Canadians as leverage. [1]

As someone who likes to follow geopolitics, I can't help but wonder if the timing of this extradition request was strategic. When Meng was arrested, Canada was in the middle of NAFTA/USMCA re-negotiations and our Prime Minister was publicly musing about diversifying our trade partnerships, specifically focused on engaging with China. The automatic arrest of one of China's "royals" per our extradition treaty with the US was an extremely effective way of erasing our only major leverage on that negotiation.

IIRC the charge of bank fraud for business dealings in Iran was largely unrelated to Huawei's (sketchy) telco business. Kind of like how they got Al Capone on tax evasion.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/michael- spavor...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/asia/michael-spavor- canadian-detained-china.html)

<comment><USER10> Not true. USMCA was signed before the arrest. Approx USMCA was finalized on Nov 30 (negotiated in the months before that. Meng was arrested on Dec 1).

Citations: [https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672150010/usmca-trump- signs-n...](https://www.npr.org/2018/11/30/672150010/usmca-trump-signs-new- trade-agreement-with-mexico-and-canada)

[https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/tech/huawei-cfo-arrested- cana...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/tech/huawei-cfo-arrested- canada/index.html)

<comment><USER9> Can't argue with that. Thanks for correcting my fuzzy memory! In the same vein, this still removes the "we can always take our business over there" card that our PM was waving around.

<comment><USER11> It seems extremely unlikely that China would refuse to do business with Canada over one persons arrest. The way they need their economy to continue growing they can't turn down a major source of revenue like Canada.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> On what planet is the idea of making a robot with a mechanical finger to press phones to test them a trade secret .... (as a phone developer) it's so blooming obvious I've spent hours of meeting discussing exactly this

It's only a trade secret if you think the entire rest of the world is stupid

<comment><USER13> It's not the idea, its the specific technology.

 _took measurements of parts of the robot and, in one instance, stole a piece of the robot_

<comment><USER12> But why would anyone need to do that, you build one of these by starting with a cheap 3d printer and removing the print head, it's not a hard thing to make

<comment><USER14> Well go tell the Chinese they don't actually need to steal any trade secrets or any of this, they can just make it themselves.

I'm sure they will reward you handsomely for basically saving their relationship with western countries and saving so much time and effort.

<comment><USER15> Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, and especially please don't post in the flamewar style. Double especially not for nationalistic battle.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Edit: it looks like you've unfortunately posted a ton of unsubstantive and uncivil comments. If you keep doing that we will ban you, so could you please re-read the guidelines and fix that? You might also find these links helpful for getting an idea of the spirit of this site:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html)

[http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html)

[http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html)

<comment><USER14> And the OP wasn't a troll? Or is the bar for intelligent discourse in HN at "Nobody honestly knows why china engadges in IP theft when they could just build it themselves."

Ill edit my comment to be nicer i guess.

Edit: Can't edit the post anymore, oh well people get it anyway, it got 7 up votes, IP theft actually benefits the person that acquires it and ill be willing to debate that anytime.

<comment><USER15> I'm doubtful that the OP was trolling. It doesn't really matter, though. Each of us needs to abide by the site guidelines even if others aren't or don't seem to. That's the only way to prevent the bar from slipping further.

Edit: while I have you, can you please not post unsubstantive comments like [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19032367](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19032367) either? That's more bar slippage and we're hoping to avoid it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It is well known in the optical networking space that Huawei stolen the entirety of Nortel's DWDM proprietary data and research, and used it to build their own dwdm platform product line.

<comment><USER17> I wonder what Nortel's management and Canada's national security did to prevent that from happenning.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> To commenters in this thread explaining that this is unfair (since almost all countries including US did it at some point of time), the main issue is that USA is powerful enough to do something about it. They can rally up support from their allies and keep Chinese companies from gaining any international adoption. Look at how they got Meng from Huawei arrested - it was almost unreal. This is how the world works today.

<comment><USER19> the quantity matters, and it's very clear that China did it a lot more. Also, Meng got arrested because we are in a state of law and she broke the law, not because some despot chose to

<comment><USER20> Are you sure? The NSA runs a global surveillance program, monitoring/copying most of the internet traffic, and industrial espionage (against all non-US states & companies, allies or not) is a stated goal of this program.

I don't know how well-funded the chinese IP theft program is, but I doubt it's much larger.

<comment><USER21> Some proven cases of economic espionage by the NSA: (and these were even against allies)

[https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/06/27/i-spy-you- spy](https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/06/27/i-spy-you-spy)

[https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-nsa-scandal-economic- espio...](https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-nsa-scandal-economic-espionage- against-germany-is-germanys-bnd-a-subsidiary-of-us-intelligence/5412279)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> China needs to take down its firewall or be shut out from the international markets. Blocking foreign web traffic in the age of digital commerce is blatant protectionism and WTO rules should be updated to prohibit such practice.

</comment><comment><USER23> I am really concerned about the rapid development of the Huawei case. Sure Huawei has issues, but which corporation doesn't. If you are an US exec, I would limit travel to China as one can risk being arrested for frivolous reasons.

<comment><USER24> If Apple execs conducted espionage on behalf of the US Government, they should be targeted. The concern is, they don't, but they will still be targeted.

<comment><USER25> So far the only major international espionage scandal that was proven (unless you consider Snowden a liar) was the NSA scandal, which showed how American companies were involved in an international scheme (willingly or not, it doesn't matter) to spy on both allied nations and enemy countries. Nothing like that has ever emerged about China.

<comment><USER26> That's because it isn't a story. People are routinely arrested in China for things they share on the very-much-not-encrypted WeChat. Anything that goes through any chinese tech company can be assumed to be have been read and processed by the government.

<comment><USER25> So, how is this comparable to what I wrote? We are talking about China spying on foreign nations through the products sold by a national company.

Has it been proven that America did that? YES, unless you choose to dismiss Snowden's revelations.

Has China ever done that? NO, or at least it has never emerged.

These are the facts.

Is China a repressive regime controlling the digital comms of its citizens? sure thing, but what has this to do with what we were discussing above?

Basic logic, damn, basic logic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Article implies the part about stealing tech from TMobile is well documented and already resolved in court...

It feels weird to me that this wasn't a bigger deal?

</comment><comment><USER28> you already know how it is with the US Gov: free markets are great unless we lose, in which case free markets go out the window and we start going after your relatives. hopefully China will not drop to that level, but we've already seen the nationalists arresting Canadian citizens. let's just hope Tim Cook doesn't have any relatives travelling to China.

<comment><USER29> That's the sad truth. No principles, just abusing the power of being superpower.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Does anyone remember if HP was punished for allowing a reseller to send millions of dollars of computers to Iran? I also saw HP logos on the monitors during footage of a North Korean missile test.

<comment><USER31> "HP today announced a resolution of a U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) and U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) investigation of potential violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA).

HP will pay approximately $108 million to these two U.S. government agencies. HP also has agreed to undertake certain compliance, reporting and cooperation obligations."

[https://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press- release.html?id=1624...](https://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press- release.html?id=1624050)

<comment><USER32> And no HP exec was arrested.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Banks trade with sanctioned countries and only get slapped with large fines. No bank officer has been arrested in trades with Iran or any other sanctioned country.

</comment><comment><USER33> Remember that the laws these supposedly insidious foreigners are accused of breaking are in the same moral category as the ones your beloved hacker heroes rail against. Is this a China vs US dispute, or a war by capital against people, with one of the weapons being a magical spell that turns knowledge into property that they can own and profit from?

</comment><comment><USER34> To be honest, this case has everything to do with Huawei's background (state connected, state supported). Possible not fair competition and fear of espionage dooms Huawei whatever the case details are. BTW companies steal. All in the game.

</comment><comment><USER35> Blah blah blah, Trump has eyes set on bringing down China's leading industries for his decoupling doctrine, so anything goes. The specifics don't even matter. If you're a rat chasing specific charges you're already missing the forest for the trees.

</comment><comment><USER36> No doubt Huawei did this. And no doubt Trump will wipe their slate clean for a trade deal. So it sucks for Canada.

US has sanctions on Iran, not China so getting around them is not considered a crime for them. Of course they will steal any technology them deem essential for their business.

Bank fraud is probably lying to banks about doing business with Iran, not cheating them of money.

<comment><USER5> It's conspiracy to commit bank fraud if you lie to a US bank to get them to clear US dollar transactions in violation of sanctions.

Banks pay astronomical fines for evading sanctions.

Infographic -> [https://www.refinitiv.com/content/dam/gl/en/documents/infogr...](https://www.refinitiv.com/content/dam/gl/en/documents/infographics/fines- for-banks-that-breached-us-sanctions-infographic.pdf)

And it's conspiracy to defraud the United States if you obstruct or defeat an agency of the US government.

Also money laundering, wire fraud, stealing trade secrets, etc.

<comment><USER36> Like I said, they do not consider it a crime. Lying to the banks was means to an end--doing business with Iran. Like if you deal drugs, you will also evade taxes.

<comment><USER37> > Like if you deal drugs, you will also evade taxes.

Not necessarily. You could choose to pay taxes on that income to the IRS. The IRS provides a way to report illegal income and pay taxes on it.

[https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17)

> Illegal activities. Income from illegal activities, such as money from > dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Form 1040, line > 21, or on Schedule C or Schedule C-EZ (Form 1040) if from your self- > employment activity.

Does anyone pay taxes on income from illegal drugs? Probably not "street dealers", but I would suspect people who earn income from marijuana businesses that are legal in some states but illegal federally probably do pay tax on that income.

Furthermore, IRS tax returns are confidential. The IRS is generally prohibited from tipping off police about reported illegal income, though there are various loopholes: [https://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/news/economy/illegal- income...](https://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/news/economy/illegal-income- tax/index.html)

<comment><USER36> I get it, but let's see: don't declare it and you may get a pass. Declare it and you're certainly going to jail for longer than tax evasion.

<comment><USER38> > Declare it and you're certainly going to jail for longer than tax evasion.

The lines you include it in are general income lines, no explanation of the income is expected or required. It's not like there is a separate line item for illegal activities. So, no, you aren't certainly going to jail if you report it.

<comment><USER36> So IRS is just gonna accept that you made $241,000 and just that dealing drugs? Tax return is step one, if red flags are raised, it's audit time with explanations, witnesses, ledgers etc. If you got caught or want to leave the profession, it's another thing, come clean. No doubt in my mind that agencies talk to each other, formally or informally.

<comment><USER38> > So IRS is just gonna accept that you made $241,000 and just that dealing > drugs

No, they are going to accept that you made $241,000 in regular income from sources that do not provide W-2s, 1099s, etc. The "dealing drugs" part is not part of the filing.

> Tax return is step one, if red flags are raised, it's audit time with > explanations, witnesses, ledgers etc.

Red flags are more likely to be raised by living beyond the means suggested by your reported income as by reporting income with no apparent source; IRS audits and investigations are looking for evidence of concealed income or other evasion of tax liability, not satisfying curiosity about the sources of reported income otherwise, and the Fifth Amendment right against self- incrimination applies.

It's true that laundering money so that you can avoid both reported income with no apparent source and living beyond the means of your reported income is a common technique (though still technically usually tax evasion, since it usually involves concealing some part of the gross income which is expended in the scheme, and that income is taxable and you cannot deduct illegal _expenses_ against illegal income, so the cost of laundering is not deductible.)

> No doubt in my mind that agencies talk to each other, formally or > informally.

Well, they certainly coordinate in the direction that gets criminals who conceal the details of their other crimes well enough to complicate prosecution but evade taxation busted for the tax offenses. The direction you are concerned about is less evident, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> It boggles my mind why the Chinese choose to take on nefarious endeavors when they are already ahead.

<comment><USER40> It's not like they started _after_ they got ahead. Nefarious tactics are a large part of _how_ they got ahead.

<comment><USER39> They've been ahead for awhile now, at least a decade in some areas. This is akin to the Warriors getting caught cheating every other game.

<comment><USER41> Not sure if they're ahead in any area exactly. Do you have specifics?

<comment><USER42> Consumer drone technology. :-)

<comment><USER41> Indeed. And to answer my own question: Landing on the dark side of the moon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I have to be honest — the allegations made here do not surprise me. The days of corporate espionage seem alive and well, and China's image in the United States is taking a significant hit.

It isn't fair to the honest, hard-working Chinese nationals who want to build a life outside their homeland.

<comment><USER44> But is it fair to the Americans who lost jobs, manufacturing, future, because of the 20 years of "technology transfer" by China?

<comment><USER45> You are blaming the wrong people there. Anyone with half a brain would realize moving manufacturing into a high population country would create competitiors who now know the fundamentals of your business. And who can do the math to figure out they can claim the market taking advantage of the cheap labor and expensive markets.

But Wall Street has a frothing hatred of people who think beyond the next fiscal quarter. Just look at the sheer Tesla short ratio long after it was clear they were viable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> In a Data Structures class a few years ago, during a review for our upcoming exam, the professor had to abruptly leave the room... I forget why. While they were gone, a Chinese student runs up to the podium and grabs the papers the professor was reading from and takes it back to their large friend group. When the professor returned, they didn't have their notes (I think it was a previous year exam). Feeling uncomfortable, the professor was unable to get the thief to confess, and class was over.

About one day before the exam, a friend of mine said he was offered the texts and it had circulated to pretty much anyone who wanted it.

<comment><USER47> What the fuck is the relevance of this story? We're just sharing tales of Chinese people misbehaving now? People in here need to do some serious soul- searching about their attitude toward 1.3 billion people. The transparent racism that pops up on every thread about China stealing trade secrets is embarrassing.

<comment><USER46> Excuse me? I'm not being racist, the friend of mine in the story was also a Chinese guy. From what I understand, at my University there was a pretty strong culture among Chinese students to share code and homeworks. I even remember my old teacher telling me they caught a Chinese grad student who ran a business outsourcing undergrad CS homework to code-shops back in China. I don't see how this is racist, it's just observation.

I'm not sure how you're confused about relevance either.

<comment><USER48> Relevance? TFA is about an executive arrested because her firm is accused of selling telecom equipment to Iran. TFA also mentions that the firm is also accused of copying the design of a product-testing robot. Your charming anecdote is about some student stealing class notes from a professor. What links the executive and the student? They're both Chinese!

That is racist. You probably don't see that, but only because your racism makes you less rational.

<comment><USER46> I'm sorry that my paltry life only offers anecdotes from college cheating instead of multinational corporate espionage, please forgive me. /s But to make an accusation of racism based on sharing a true story is very naive. In fact, you calling me out and saying that I'm "less" is more bigoted than anything I've said. You're literally claiming superiority over me, and all I've done is told a true story.

<comment><USER47> The choice of _what_ to communicate in a public forum is, itself, a form of communication. This is obvious to everyone with a working social sense. People don't just tell random anecdotes apropos of nothing. Here, you're telling the anecdote because you wanted to establish that there is a culture of dishonesty among Chinese people, isn't that right?

<comment><USER46> Establishing the culture of dishonesty among the entire Chinese population isn't even remotely my job or prerogative, but if I have stories of systemic cheating within _some_ of the Chinese culture at my University, then that seems reasonably apropos. I suppose you think I should just pretend like my experiences didn't happen, and not mention it to anyone? I never said the Chinese people as a whole are one way or another, and I'm taking offense to these unwarranted accusations.

<comment><USER48> You're easily offended, but not because anything unfair has been written about you. Your experience is important to you but not to this thread.

If you had tried to enlighten a discussion of e.g. an African-American executive at a tech firm with a similarly bizarre anecdote, you would have gotten far more complaints. The excuse you've given here, "I just haven't known many black people!", wouldn't count for much either.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Hugo v0.20.3 just released - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/spf13/hugo/releases/tag/v0.20.3 <comment><USER2> Please don't post to HN for every single bug fix release. (Releases in general don't make for very good submissions, at least not without articles or documentation about specific cool new features)</comment>


Ask HN: Want To Become Freelance Web Developer/Designer - <AUTHOR>

Some questions...
I'm starting a full time development job soon but want to get into web development and do some freelancing to earn some extra side money. I know it will take some investment (mainly time and commitment) but I am willing to do it but need some guidance/opinions...
1. What languages should I learn/focus on and are in most demand? (eg. ruby, php, python?) I don't quite understand which languages are best for server side and which for client side.
2. How much can I expect to earn (hourly)
3. Any tools/books I should start with to help me jumpstart?
4. Any other suggestions or technology I should consider learning and freelancing? <comment><USER2> Couple questions back:

1\. Can you program at all right now? If so, what languages and how much experience in each?

2\. How stubborn are you? How do you react to stressful and frustrating situations? Do you get excited by fixing difficult problems or do you get frustrated and give up?

3\. How are your design skills? Any graphic design or illustration background?

4\. Have you self-taught any other skills in the past? If so, what? How was that experience for you?

5\. Why web programming? Is it only the extra side money?

<comment><AUTHOR> 1\. Yes, my background is in Computer Engineering. Have done Java, C/C++, VBA, bit of PHP, Python, etc. 2.I try to remain calm when under stressful situations and get excited when I solve difficult problems and that in turn helps me to keep going. 3\. I consider myself pretty creative... but haven't had extensive experience with design/illustration background. I learned Adobe InDesign pretty thoroughly myself few years ago but haven't done it since then. I use Photoshop in and out to do image enhancements. 4\. Adobe InDesign; took some time investment but the return was worth it. 5\. Not only for the money... I am very interested in learning for my own sake because I love building things. And if the skills can help me make some money, why not?

<comment><USER2> Ok, that adds quite a bit of clarity. From your first post it was unclear where you were starting from.

So, the money and demand for junior developers tends to lean towards front end or full stack devs. If you want to work for a startup, learn rails or django really well and then learn how to build client side apps in JavaScript (communicating through AJAX). Use frameworks everywhere you can (jQuery is the de facto standard now). Learn everything you can about HTML5, Canvas, the new Audio and Video tags and CSS3. Keep pushing forward on design, but remember, less is more in the new era of web aesthetic.

If you want to work for larger companies, learn two of the most common frameworks built on Java and make sure you are very comfortable gluing libraries together. You can also learn the same front end skills, but the chances of being able to do anything full stack are slim to none.

Books and videos? Too many to list really. Code complete, gang of four design patterns and mythical man month are pretty common. Don't make me think is also excellent.

Pay rates? Depends _very much_ on location. Pay rates for the exact same job might be $25/hr in Iowa and $100/hr in Mountain View. In general, if you are good and want to be challenged, come out to the Valley and don't accept anything less than $50/hr to start. Salary: with a couple years experience you should be able to easily crack six figures.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot for the insight!

Is rails different than ruby?

What all technologies u listed contributes strictly to the aesthetics of a website?

<comment><USER2> Scratch all of the above. I really don't want to sound like a dick here, but there is one skill that will help you immensely in your career. Try googling something before asking senior team members.

Also, and this is just nit-picky, but try to use complete words in your correspondence.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


3. 2. 1. Contact. The Google Contacts API has landed - <AUTHOR> http://googledataapis.blogspot.com/2008/03/3-2-1-contact-api-has-landed.html

<comment><USER2> On a side note, I used to love that magazine and was disappointed when they changed it to "Contact Kids". I think there was also a TV show.

<comment><USER3> > I think there was also a TV show

Yes. It was a kind-of science show. Thank you for the jaunt down memory lane. I'm trying to play the theme song in my head now without google assistance. "3-2-1 contact. Reason mumble everybody"

<comment><USER4> 3-2-1 Contact was awesome! Of course, I was 5 or 6 at the time... ;)

<comment><USER5> How about Square One... Mathnet! The Mystery of the Maltese Pigeon was my favorite one. I remember it so fondly, I'm almost afraid to go find it on YouTube.

<comment><USER3> Mathnet! That was an afternoon staple for me. The two detectives named after days of the week...

As a kid, I remember watching one episode where they opened a door with a credit card(!) and I was like "Mom, do you have a credit card" - I didn't tell her why and next thing I know after thirty minutes I shocked her by opening our side door with the credit card. Later, I got it down to 5 seconds and they changed the locks...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is weird I was just looking into this yesterday and seemed to miss them releasing the API.

The other options I was looking at was A.) doing it ourselves. B.) using libgmailer or some other OS API C.) using octazen.com.

The octazen approach seems to take the least amount of time, which is important in this situation. The problem I was having with the octazen demo is that it was breaking on gmail accounts. When I asked their tech support what was going on they seemed to not know about the issue and asked me to try again. I bet it doesn't work because google changed their calls when they released the API. Now we at least have another option if we decide to go with A or hack up B or C.

</comment><comment><USER7> very awesome this. We've just been working on getting our sync engine to work with GMail, using crappy gem's and been writing specs to use their undocumented JSON calls. Which would have been fine, but this is even better.

Looks like Google is actually doing something with their Dataportability membership!

(BTW for those interested check out www.soocial.com our sync tool)

<comment><USER8> just curious, what gems are you using?

<comment><USER7> gmailer

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Yay, perhaps now we'll have a better import/export tool. Or maybe a tool to create more Xobni-like features (most frequent contacts, etc.)

</comment><comment><USER10> "Have you ever been on a web-site that asked you for your Google username and password... Did you think twice before giving out that information, hoping the web-site would not use it to access your credit card information..."

I cannot say, how laughable that sounds to me.

I would never even think first about giving one website my passwort to another website.</comment>


Estonia allows self-driving cars with remote operators - <AUTHOR> http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/good_for_business/?doc=127978 <comment><USER2> Sounds like a pretty bad idea. If people get distracted and they doze off [1] when _inside_ the self-driving cars and while testing them, the chances for that to happen when they control them remotely are much higher.

Also, terrible idea to allow the self-driving cars to be controlled remotely. Now attackers have an "official feature" they can use to do that as well.

Estonia may be forward-thinking, but they always seem to get it half-right.

[1] [https://www.sbdautomotive.com/en/ford-engineers-dozing- off-p...](https://www.sbdautomotive.com/en/ford-engineers-dozing-off-prompts- leap-to-level-5)</comment>


Show HN: Weekly troubleshooting challenges for DevOps and SREs - <AUTHOR> https://www.circuitops.com/challenge <comment><USER2> Feedback: having done your first one, I find myself wondering _how_ the thing got into that state in the first place, and what can be done about it. That is, [Jub be jung fperjrq hc gur crezvffvbaf/bjarefuvcf ba gur erqvf cngu] (spoilers).

Basically, this is the lowest level of "if this then that" fixing, and people need to be able to do that, but they also need to then go "we can't keep operating in this mode".

I mean, yeah, here, it's artificial for the purposes of the exercise. But, if you were to see this in real life, there would be a bunch more questions to ask and things to dig into to keep it from happening again. Randos with root? Bad script somewhere? Terrible system management stuff? RPM getting a little too frisky with how it manages certain directories?

I'm not sure how you get that part into a thing like this, though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great point! I wonder if there are things we can do to break the scenario while the user is logged in to simulate operational issues such as OOMKilled, network glitches or disk filled. That might enable a better root cause discussion during interviews

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN, Hassan here - one of the co-founders of CircuitOps. While building CircuitOps, we have had so much fun watching people try to diagnose and fix issues in production like environments, so we made it into a public challenge!

We are planning on releasing one challenge a week.

Would love to hear your feedback and see some of you on the leaderboard!

Cheers, Hassan</comment>