Ask HN: Is is possible live ethically by not supporting sweatshops - <AUTHOR>

Is is possible to buy a phone that is not manufactured in a sweatshop ? is it possible to buy clothes that are not manufactured in a sweatshop ? Would like to hear if the community has any folks that were able to successfully bypass the current system and still maintain a standard of living that one could without bypassing sweatshops.<p>Also, How did things get so bad ? would like to hear a economist's perspective. Since I feel its partly responsible for the current state of affairs. <comment><USER2> > How did things get so bad ?

I would probably say that it is better than it has ever been. Looking back in history, child labour was very high until the early/mid 20th century.

According to Wikipedia [0]: The incidence of child labour in the world decreased from 25% to 10% between 1960 and 2003, according to the World Bank.

So we are probably overall better off than before. Sweatshops of varying degrees are unpleasant by Western standards, but they do provide a better (slightly at least) than working on a poor farm. They, if I am correct, appear to be quite effective in quickly increasing the living standards in countries. People do flock to these jobs for a reason - they are (a lot) better than the alternatives.

However, I don't know if it is avoidable to use 'sweatshops'. American Apparel are made, mostly, in American factories if I recall correctly?

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour)

</comment><comment><USER3> For the phone issue, a company (somewhere in Northern Europe if I remember right) built an android phone using materials entirely from non-conflict areas etc. Not a sweatshop issue, but I would bet a company that is trying to take on that element of the manufacturing process would not opt for a bottom of the line sweatshop.

On another note, many of the issues I have faced while working on my JD have involved looking at supply chains while tackling issues like climate change & corporate social responsibility. There's a lot of research being put into things to track where products are coming from & new standards in things like requests for proposals requiring suppliers to be socially & environmentally responsible. Still, not every business participates in this practice. Partially because of the cost & also because it's hard to demonstrate this type of responsiblity to the consumer. Oddly, there's other companies like Red Lobster which buys 100% of its seafood from sustainable fisheries, but you'll never see a single hint of this in their stores & advertising.

Relating to the concept above, I am working on an idea for a virtual complementary currency that is used to both finance socially responsible companies & steer money through supply chains etc. to other responsible companies. That was a long winded explanation, but just think "Bitcoin meets responsible investing." Another way to imagine it would be to think about trading Certificates of Deposit when buying / selling goods instead of trading cash. The receiver gets something of value, but the fact that it's in a CD means that they cannot break the investment you created without incurring a penalty.

The part that relates to supply chains / sweat shops is that to exchange the currency for its cash value there is a hefty exit fee. This prevents companies you do business with from immediately liquidating the currency and ending the socially responsible investments you committed the currency to. It also opens the opportunity to vary the exit fee depending on how responsible a company is. Thus, you could leave something like an 8% exit fee (like an exit load on a mutual fund) on all businesses, including sweatshops in other countries. But if you find a sweatshop that is treating employees better etc. you could reduce or eliminate the exit fee. Doing this would cause the responsible sweatshops to value the currency more & make it more likely that businesses who accept the currency will seek out these suppliers in their supply chains. So I could go on, but basically the idea is to create entitlements (in the legal sense) through private contracts that cause the currency you spend to flow to more ethical businesses.

I've slowly started exposing my idea to friends to get more input and hoping to turn it into a company. Most of my discussions have been on the investment side of the currency & not the Coasean approach to ethical supply chains. Im also looking to do possibly do an independent study during my final semester of law school this fall that would look into all the legal aspects of securities/banking/financial regulation involving an alternate currency where the deposits finance socially responsible / clean energy companies. There's a ton of ways to do it, but each comes with a different set of legal burdens.

I'm also slowly starting to network through friends to find a possible co- founder for a company based on this idea with the hope of applying to Y-combinator this winter. (I have dabbled w/ programming for fun, but haven't built anything too complex. I also realized that I mostly just liked learning the syntax & solving puzzles so my latest efforts have just been solving Project Euler stuff w/ Haskell for fun but with no intention of using the language in the real world).

For anyone wondering where the companies' profit would come from, it would come from exchanges on the system. Unlike bitcoin's P2P system, this would be a centrally managed currency. This means that the payment systems would also be managed by the company. They would take a small fee for each payment made with the currency system. However, since all payments would have to happen through the company's system, the company could charge a lower rate than square & other competitors (because the company gets to take a fee off of all future transactions instead of just the individual transaction & then passing the cash off to a private individual who is free to use whatever payment/banking system they want.)

Sorry if this was a a bit rambling / not too clear. Didn't want to spend too much time writing this before work.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is going to sound a bit glib, but the problem sort of fixes itself.

Look at China. "Sweatshop" sort of manufacturing has largely left. Now the country has more Rolls Royces and Bentleys sold there vs _any other_ sans the US. Where did those shops go? Well, places like indonesia. But, guess what, those manufacturing outfits have since left and gone to Bangladesh.

The money goes where people will do work for less. Nobody can stop this. But where it _does_ go, it leaves a wake of prosperity. Maybe not for the people themselves--the kids doing the sweating--but for their kids--or really, their neighbors' kids.

Over the last 30 years, 1 _billion_ \-- with a 'b'\-- people have come out of extreme poverty as defined by international standards. Why? Because people in some countries stopped wanting to do horrible work and others would. And then when those countries stopped wanting to do it, others would.

Guess who is next? Myanmar.

And round and round and round it goes.

This kind of thinking only works if you are ok with generational problem- solving. If not a single person, ever, no matter what, cannot be allowed to _not_ live according to elite Western Standards--then, yeah, it's a problem. Otherwise, international capital flows do the work no single entity or popular movement could ever do:give money to those who actually want it most.

</comment><comment><USER5> You don't want to support sweatshops? That is great! That means you're starting to understand how things work and where they come from.

Keep doing your research and you'll soon find that economically speaking, eliminating what you call sweatshops is like trying to eliminate gravity.

Everybody needs to eat and if they refuse to live a dishonest criminal life, they'll take a job no matter how little it pays and that opens up new business oportunity. It's the law of the market and it won't change if you or a little group tries to buy locally because not everyone can afford (even if they are aware) to buy more expensive local products. This is why Wal-Mart has been unstoppable.

Most electronics (computer/cell ph) now a days are manufactured in what you'd call a sweatshop.

How did things get so bad ?

It all depends on the information you consume, bad news vs good news. The opportunities we have now a days are overwhelming, things have never been better (or worse).

</comment><comment><USER6> Sweatshop is more of a political term. Reality is that when kid in poor country has a choice between no job and total misery and some job and some money - he chooses later. No one is killing people for not taking a job.

You, of course have a choice of not buying stuff made in "sweatshop" and rather buying stuff made in a company where very young worker is happy to make some money to bring to his family.

</comment><comment><USER7> Define "sweatshop"</comment>


A simple experiment suggests a way to encourage truthfulness - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/node/21551447

<comment><USER2> I find this type of statistical trick (to handle people lying) to be extraordinarily cool, despite (or because of) how trivial it is.

An especially elegant version: I remember reading an article (probably posted on here) where to figure out how many people were engaged in some illegal activity (opiate production in Afghanistan?), they asked each person to answer the question only after flipping a coin, and if they coin said heads, they were to always say yes. Thus, saying "yes" was no longer incriminating, and all the researchers had to do to get the value they wanted was subtract 50 and double.

<comment><USER3> Just to make this technique a bit clearer, since "subtract 50 and double" was a bit vague to me: you ask 100 people the question about illegal activity, and assume they're going to toss the coin and follow the protocol. That gives you 100 "yes" and "no" answers, of which ~50 "yes" answers are due to following the protocol and can just be ignored. The remaining yes/no answers are from the tails results and that's the data you use to get a final answer. As an illegal opiate producer in Afghanistan who answers "yes", you have plausible deniability by just saying "I got heads."

The fairness of the coin toss means the researcher asking the question doesn't need to know who got which coin result so it can be kept secret.

<comment><USER4> Isn't the very key to this that the researcher doesn't see the coin result?

<comment><USER5> That's correct. The researcher doesn't know the outcome of any particular coin toss but knows the outcome, in expectation, for a large number of coin tosses.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Unfortunately, the paper ([http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/s.shalvi/bestanden/Shalvi%20et...](http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/s.shalvi/bestanden/Shalvi%20et%20al_Honesty%20requires%20time_PS.pdf)) doesn't say whether the lower mean for the people in the low time pressure group is because they lied less frequently, or because they lied with lower numbers.

I wish they'd included graphs of the actual distributions of reported numbers. That would have been more useful than just the mean, standard deviation, and chi-square results.

<comment><USER7> Good point. Obviously this becomes implausible once the mean reaches 3.5 (as it apparently did in the n=74 single die followup, with 3.4).

And yes, the data should be available for download.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's probably the same psychology that drives many sales ("buy now and get double your offer!"). Force action before higher reasoning can take hold.

Imagine if they modified slot machines to worsen your odds if you didn't put in another quarter within n seconds.

<comment><USER9> That is one scary prospect. I think there are a bunch of people that would fall for such an offering. Look at how alot of the perks are already set up to comp you a drink or other such thing based on how long you have been playing. If you were to say the longer you play continuously, the better your odds,I think you would take every dollar an addicted gambler could scrounge. Sad.

<comment><USER10> I can't imagine the casinos haven't thought of this; some reasons they might not do it:

\- People already think "the longer I've played without winning, the greater the chance I'll win now, because I'm 'due'", so there's no need to actually alter the odds (which would cost money)

\- Or, maybe they're just afraid that people collapsing and dying at the slot machines (of dehydration, starvation, or exhaustion) would lead to bad publicity and more stringent regulation.

<comment><USER11> I think slot machines have to (by law) pay out a certain average percentage over time. That would probably be pretty hard to manage in conjunction with this scheme.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Interpretation: We have an evolutionarily advantageous instinct to maximize short term gains; our reason, however, can override this when we A) view other things as more important (e.g. honesty), and B) give it time to do its job.

Amusingly, phrasing it this way and combining it with the language in the article, we have 'original sin' arising from evolution. The religious imagery comes not from nowhere, but explains the biology in the best terms it could find. Protoscience.

<comment><USER13> Thats a great connection you've made between seemingly disconnected & distant disciplines. If we figure out the actual biological and chemical processes involved in a human body while it is indulging in synthesizing an 'original sin', that would be a big win in terms expanding our species' knowledge-base.

I'm sure there's research out there that explains at least fews bits of it through experiments where they monitor bodily processes when a person is lying. There are some common methods like the lie-detector and GSR methods, but apart from those external monitoring methods, probably also some molecular/cellular-level observations have been made.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Something interesting I think the article did not mention is that given the difference between the two sets of experiments, where you roll once vs you roll 3 times.

As a participant I'd feel more inclined to lie about my first roll if I rolled a higher number in my second or third attempt.

I'd be very interested in the results if n was not 76 but instead 7600.

<comment><USER6> From the paper ([http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/s.shalvi/bestanden/Shalvi%20et...](http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/s.shalvi/bestanden/Shalvi%20et%20al_Honesty%20requires%20time_PS.pdf)), page 5-6: "Shalvi et al. (2011a) asked participants to roll a die under a paper cup with a small hole at the top allowing only them to see the outcome, and earn money according to what they reported rolling (1=$1, 2=$2, etc.). As participants' rolls were truly private, the authors assessed lying by comparing the reported distribution to the distribution predicted by chance (Fischbacher & Heusi, 2008). Participants were asked to roll three times but to report only the outcome of the first roll. Although all three rolls were private, the distribution of reported outcomes resembled the distribution of choosing the highest of the three observed rolls. Modifying the task to allow participants to roll only once reduced lying. Participants clearly found value in being able to justify their lies to themselves. The authors concluded that observing desired counterfactuals, in the form of desired (higher) values appearing on the second or third (non-relevant for pay) rolls, modified participants' ethical perceptions of what they considered to be lying. Observing desired counterfactual information enabled participants to enjoy both worlds: lie for money, but feel honest."

Shalvi et. al. (2011a) is: Shalvi, S., Dana, J., Handgraaf, M. J. J., & De Dreu, C. K. W. (2011a). Justified ethicality: Observing desired counterfactuals modifies ethical perceptions and behavior. Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 115, 181-190.

<comment><USER14> Appreciate the link. I'm going to read up. I had an inclination this would be the case but definitely interesting to see it in actual research.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm shocked that such a poorly done study is front page news.

76 people, comparing to a simple average, "no way of knowing" the actual results...Come on, seriously? I love science and give credit to everyone working to understand things; but labeling this as a new understanding (even a _potential_ understanding) of psychological incentives is ridiculous.

</comment><comment><USER16> Although I wonder if being explicitly told to take your time for such a trivial task would make you more conscious of being observed.

<comment><USER17> Most likely. As another poster pointed out, what this shows is that our reason --given time to work--can override more instinctual desires to cheat. Part of rationalizing is considering situations, real and unreal, that may influence the outcome. E.g. I may be being observed and if they think I am cheating they may discard me from the pay group.

Without that time you wouldn't consider that "chosen at random" may be a lie. So, to the automatic mind your odds of getting paid are the same whether you pick 3 or 6 but the reward for lying is significantly higher. A simple heuristic the automatic mind may use would be (roll)x(payout): 6 x 10 = 60 vs 3 x 10 = 30

I'd be interested if the money incentive might have influence lying in the other direction, however. E.g. I did roll a 6, but if I say the maximum number they may not pay me; if I say a lower number they may be more likely pay me. This could lead to a new rational heuristic including a chance of being paid: 6 x 10 x 0.10 = 6 vs 3 x 10 x 0.50 = 15

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My guess: immediate temptation to cheat for $10 if you think you can get away with it.

On reflection, caution accelerates:

1\. The gain is small.

2\. Maybe people will find out via mechanism X I didn't think of (hidden cameras?)

3\. maybe my report of 6 will be suspicious. maybe a 5 ... no, may as well just go with my original 3 ...

4\. How will I feel having cheated? How good will I feel going away having a story of how I was honest even when it cost me?

5\. I want to impress my psych teacher with how honest we college freshmen are.

6\. Now that I've hesitated so long, I feel even more cautious. I've spent so much time deliberating, when I could have just taken the extra $5 immediately ... I must actually not want to cheat.

Perhaps also noteworthy: the above experiment was with 3 dice rolls, but the instruction to report the first. In a second experiment with only 1 die roll, the averages result claimed by both the hurry-up and take-your-time groups was 0.2-0.4 lower. This suggest that people in the 3 die roll group felt more comfortable cheating by reporting the 2nd or 3rd roll, perhaps in their mind lamely equating it with what could have been the 1st roll, or having a justification ready of having honestly misunderstood (I doubt anyone did honestly misunderstand). A difference of 0.2 is surely significant (comparing between N=76 and N=74 freshmen under the 3-dice and 1-die conditions).

</comment><comment><USER18> Is it possible that given time to think, the subjects decided that they probably couldn't get away with cheating, despite wanting to?

<comment><USER19> It's an interesting hypothesis but it doesn't seem to change the conclusion that "cheating is instinctive".

<comment><USER20> True, as long as you mean 'instinctive' in the sense of default, rather than in the sense of innate.

<comment><USER19> Yes that's what I meant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The most likely explanation is random noise, and that this experiment will not be repeatable. Sadly almost all psychology studies are like this, an odd result thata is most likely statistical noise.

<comment><USER7> You mean that the most likely explanation for us hearing about this study is publication bias, right?

But we're talking p<.01 here, so most likely you're wrong. You'd have to believe that 100 similar studies have been performed and we only heard about the one winner.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This experiment was done in Israel - I wonder what would other countries would look like. Israelis seem to be more aggressive and creative in getting what they want than, say, Southern Californians.

<comment><USER23> You've clearly never been to Southern California.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> It could also be that the group with more time to calculate decided to make the number closer after thinking that the researcher would know 3.5 was the average.

If they provided the data set (all the numbers given) we would get the important... standard deviation which would get us closer to that answer.

</comment><comment><USER25> > A different bunch of volunteers were asked to roll the die just once

Was anyone else surprised to see "bunch"? Why did they use that, when "group" would be a much better word?

</comment><comment><USER26> This seems to suggest that you would get a more honest reply through email than either phone or face-to-face contact.

</comment><comment><USER27> Why Perl, you lying sack of shit!!

      C:\>perl -we "for(1..76){$sum += (int rand 6) + 1;} print $sum / 76
      3.71052631578947

If that should have been 3.5, then 0.21 * 76 = 15.9 extra points over average.

Perl, you lying oaf, you owe me 159 shekels. pay up.

I guess I'm being ironic, but with n=76, it would be great if "Those who were not under any time pressure reported a mean roll of 3.9. Both groups lied, then." came with a disclaimer about how confident we could be about that.

<comment><USER28> After reading it I was going to say the same thing. What I don't understand is why they compared it to the statistical average rather than just recording what they rolled. It would have been fairly trivial to eliminate that particular statistical variability from the experiment.

<comment><USER29> The experimenters want the test subjects to believe that the die roll is truly private and therefore that the subjects can, individually, get away with a lie. An easy way to do that is to actually make the die roll private.

Maybe you could devise equipment that would convince subjects that roll was private even though it really wasn't. Ideas on how to do that? Hidden wireless/infrared camera in the cup?

<comment><USER28> I thought a hidden camera scenario would be fairly easy. Two way mirror, hidden camera, etc.

If Justin Bieber is allowed hidden cameras, surely science is, too.

Also interesting: the experimenters are testing lying but refuse to lie themselves in order to properly carry out the experiment. I feel like there's some special irony in there somewhere.

<comment><USER27> despite my statistical uncertainty, I think it is a lot easier to show a subject that they're not being tricked if they aren't. People are REALLY good at picking up being tricked or not from very slight nonverbal communication and environmental clues.

<comment><USER28> Hmmm... maybe don't tell the administrator who runs it? I'm sure there is a way to actually observe the whole thing without giving it away. There is no cake, after all.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Stochastic Resonance - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_resonance <comment><USER2> I've found a lot of these explanations to be a lot harder to understand with words, and painfully obvious explained visually.

This diagram makes it a lot simpler: [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sverker_Sikstroem/publi...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sverker_Sikstroem/publication/255630771/figure/fig1/AS:316654090244096@1452507626185/Stochastic- resonance-where-a-weak-sinusoidal-signal-goes-undetected-as-it-does-not- bring.png)

<comment><USER3> The visual explanation makes it look like overlaying any sufficiently high single frequency high intensity signal would achieve the detectable threshold passing events. Is that true? Why does the article mainly focus on white noise?

<comment> cup-of-tea Yeah, I don't think the picture is correct. It's just showing how a signal can be detected even in a high noise environment by observing threshold crossing events.

The article talks about the white noise resonating with the signal but not the noise. I'm trying to picture white noise as a summation of all frequencies, but I've never thought about the phase of the components. If two signals of the same frequency are in phase then they resonate, but if they are out of phase they cancel each other out. What does the phase of the components look like in white noise?

<comment><USER4> The picture seems to match what the article says, with respect to a detection system having a step-like threshold. It is not a matter of the signal being detected even in a high-noise environment, as in this case, it would not be detected at all without the noise: the signal (blue) line is always below the threshold (the dotted line.) With noise added, the detector picks up the spikes above the threshold (those circled in red), and the time-sequence of those spikes has the same periodicity and phase as the original signal (plus some noise).

The article points out that with too much noise, this does not work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is essentially signal normalization. Sensor systems operate on a narrow band of inputs using non-linear components (like e.g. diodes). Adding noise is like raising the DC voltage on a signal so that it shifts the signal to within your operating parameters. For example, for a transistor amplifier to work, the base diode needs a 1.4V difference to turn on and amplify a 10mV source signal.

What makes white noise interesting is that it has a zero DC component (on average) by randomly adding energy as often as it subtracts, while passing through analog components (like a capacitors where R(s) = 1/(sC) in s-domain). In my view, this is still a form of amplification.

Adding Gaussian noise around your source frequency is certainly source amplification because it's equivalent to attenuating the surrounding "noisy" frequencies for the benefit of your sensor equipment. This would increase the signal-to-noise ratio, but you have to know what the base frequency is you are trying to measure.

I hope to be corrected by the signal folks, but it seems misleading to me that "the frequencies in the white noise corresponding to the original signal's frequencies will __resonate __with each other, " when resonance does not occur in the signal, but in the resonant body of the sensor, and so this is more about sensor system calibration than boosting an unknown source signal.

It seems that the practical implications are that you can have simpler sensors (that work in a narrower band) if you can cheaply control the input noise based on sensor reading.

</comment><comment><USER6> This is a richly intriguing phenomenon, with interesting implications!

For those interested in reading more, this article (on stochastic resonance's potential importance in biological sensing) is edifying: [https://www.physik.uni- augsburg.de/theo1/hanggi/Papers/282.p...](https://www.physik.uni- augsburg.de/theo1/hanggi/Papers/282.pdf) (Hänggi, Peter. "Stochastic resonance in biology: how noise can enhance detection of weak signals and help improve biological information processing." ChemPhysChem 3.3 (2002): 285-290.)

(Perhaps this is an example of how biological systems can value accurate sensation so highly that they invent ingenious sensing schemes to achieve high performance.)

</comment><comment><USER7> I've heard the term "dithering" used for this, in electronics and a sort of related (reverse?) idea in displaying images on low color depth displays. I think. For example if you have a DAC generated 8-bit data, but you want finer resolution, then you could imagine averaging maybe every pair of samples, which if you add (and divide by two) the samples, you get an extra bit of information.

But that only works if your signal (including the measurement circuit) is not rock steady, which would make both samples identical and so you don't gain any information. Adding noise helps the samples be different which can increase the effective resolution. If you were just on the brink of a discretization bucket, a kick of noise will likely push you into the next bucket

<comment><USER8> Dithering isn't the reverse idea, but maybe more of an inverse idea. Instead of adding noise to produce more signal, you add noise to reduce artifacts (unwanted signal in your signal).

Dithering exploits the human senses, so maybe in a way it _is_ the same thing, just for the meatware in our heads.

<comment><USER7> That's how I meant it. Your eye, optics, and nerves too probably, make averaging happen. Noise gets averaged.

Not sure what distinction you are making between inverse and reverse, but I'm curious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you find this interesting, another cool (and also badly named - "resonance" would actually make some sense for that one!) measurement technique for even tinier signals is lock-in amplification.

The idea isn't very complicated, but the Wikipedia explanation is god-awful. I'll try: You modulate the cause of the signal you want to measure with some sine function of frequency f. Then you take the resulting signal and multiply it with the clean sine function of frequency f. You integrate (sum up) the result of that over a long time. Incredible sensitivity (and very slow reaction to changes) results.

If you know what a convolution is, the explanation can be shorter.

</comment><comment><USER10> Adding noise just amplifies the total signal intensity, allowing it to exceed a threshold for detection. It's not really amplification, and there's no real resonance. You cannot have a signal resonate with random noise, mixing an 8 bit signal with 8 bits of noise gives you less than 2^-40 chance of resonating for more than 10 cycles. The name is a flawed way of describing a signal processing technique.

</comment><comment><USER11> Nice, though, you could probably get better performance by using an analogue integrator and sigma Delta encoding. Probably even better if you down convert (multiply with expected frequency first) You can swap bandwidth for resolution.

</comment><comment><USER12> Doea anyone know if there have been any attempts to see if this effect can be used to detect anomalous log events that get drowned out by all the noisy logs?</comment>


Jacob Appelbaum: Use something like Jitsi instead of Skype - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DS4nFy1NXA&feature=youtu.be&t=15m40s

<comment><AUTHOR> However, there's one major problem with Jitsi: It seems not to be available for iOS while Skype is. Sure, security has its price but an instant messaging and VoIP software is pretty useless if you cannot use it on the go.</comment>


Python vs Clojure 2: Reloaded - <AUTHOR> http://blog.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/10/python-vs-clojure-reloaded/ Many Python users submitted better code than what was posted in the last article - This time I've dug up exemplary code from Rosetta. <comment><USER3> Since I know Lau reads comments here:

The way to advocacy is to start with an excellent example in language X and then tell us how it can be done better with an example in language Y.

Cherry-picking examples isn't going to win you many converts.

<comment><USER4> Even worse, it makes you look after two tries at it like you have an agenda to push.

I've flagged this because I thought the first time around that that was the case, now I'm sure.

Python and clojure both have their strengths, and their weaknesses.

Contrasting languages to show how one solves something vs how the other does it is education, keeping 'score' is a childish attempt at proving 'your' language to be the better one.

key quote: "But like I also told one disgruntled Scala user, it's not always fun being compared to Clojure and I think a few Python users felt that they got more competition than they hoped for."

And the picture at the end speaks volumes.

What I really don't get is if you're that much of a clojure fan why you don't get that these stupid articles are doing clojure more bad than good.

It reminds me of the damage done to Erlang by flooding HN with all those articles. If a language is good then there must be other ways of showing that.

Show me not how you implement some trivial benchmark in 16 vs 12 lines of code, show me how you made a serious production system capable of handling a couple of hundred thousand uniques in a real-world application.

And I'm sure that can be done, but that would be 'real work (tm)', whereas sniping is so much easier.

And for extra points, then find an expert programmer in the language that you wish to compare with and have them do the exact same thing.

That would impress me. This just annoys me.

<comment><AUTHOR> jacques, calm down, please.

This is a fun comparison showing off some features of both languages. Notice in example 2 where Python is actually the most concise, cleanly written example where my code comes out looking a bit cramped? It's not a hatchet job, it's a comparison which will tell you something about both languages.

Sure I like the real world examples too, but for a simple outline of a few of their respective qualities this should tell you enough. If you have a larger project you'd want to tag-team on, showing the capabilities of both languages on a much larger scale I'm definitely up for it, that would also be educational.

<comment><USER4> I'm pretty calm, thank you.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I like both languages for pushing the envelope, but I wouldn't consider myself qualified to do a comparison that is meaningful. The only language where I think I could make any statements is C, and that's only because of decades of using it. I've used PHP for business reasons for 10 years and I _still_ wouldn't think I'm qualified to write a benchmark comparing PHP to something else.

The other day, there was a discussion here about 'the hundred year language' (that essay by PG), and I wrote that if there is a candidate for that spot it's either Clojure or Erlang, and my money would be on clojure fwiw.

The python guys ripping in to perl with cherry picked examples, the clojure guys ripping in to python it gets us exactly nowhere.

You don't need to compare to anything to show excellence.

But if you're going to do it, Rosetta is the right way to do it.

If you want to do runtime comparisons then I think you should get a person that has at least your skills in python to have a look at what's going on, and you should not just show one example where you come out ahead.

You should show many examples along the lines of the great programming language shootout. Again, that's real work.

Who knows how many were tried where clojure was terribly slow that were not shown for that reason and so on.

Hand-picked, biased, a waste of time.

<comment><AUTHOR> jacques,

I don't quite agree with your sentiment that excellence stands on it's own, but time will tell.

I'd just like to correct two mistakes you made.

1) I didn't pick examples where Clojure runs circles around Python - Like I've stated before, Example #2 is a lot cleaner in Python than what I wrote. The fact that my implementation is 9.4x faster than the Python teams is not subjective and tells you something important about parallelized sequence consumption.

2) I didn't hand pick anything, I picked Lehman because it was on the front page, followed another link to something which didn't have a Python solution, another to the 'Count examples' and so on. I didn't set Python up for sniping, which I why I think the comparison is interesting.

And for the record: I think Python came out looking pretty good.

<comment><USER4> > I didn't set Python up for sniping, which I why I think the comparison is > interesting.

Ok, I'll take that at face value then, but from the writing I sure got a different impression. This may be my language skills though, tone of voice is a subtle thing.

Quotes that are confusing to me:

> which (until the next release) is a bit slow on the JVM.

Is that meant as an apology for bad performance on one benchmark ? If so why apologize, in a benchmark all that matters is the facts, it's slow, or it's not.

You leave out the timings on this benchmark, concentrate just on the line count, which suggests in combination with the above that clojure performed less well than python but you left out that data. Or maybe it wasn't, but it would have been consistent to show run-times for all examples, code size for all examples (and coded up in roughly the same way), preferably gzipp'd to get rid of formatting bias.

> Might be a little confusing, but it's a great performance booster. << means > bit-shift-left and

Who is your audience here ? Any programmer worth their salt recognizes a shift operation when they see one.

In your clojure examples you consistently count only the lines with code, in the python examples you count the blank lines as well.

Besides, who cares about line count when one language puts a whole pile of expressions on one line and the other does not, clearly, line count is not going to be a good metric to compare the one to the other.

You're also counting lines which define constants used only once and lines that print headers, the clojure program doesn't have those luxuries.

So, let's rewrite the python code like you wrote the clojure code:

      from math import sqrt

      def is_prime ( p ):
        if p == 2: return True
        if p <= 1 or p % 2 == 0: return False
        for i in range(3, int(sqrt(p))+1, 2 ):
        if p % i == 0: return False
        return True

      def is_mersenne_prime ( p ):
        if p == 2: return True
        m_p = ( 1 << p ) - <USER2>
        s = 4
        for i in range(3, p+1):
          s = (s ** 2 - 2) % m_p
        return s == 0

      for p in range(2, 33219):
        if is_prime(p) and is_mersenne_prime(p): print("M%d"%p);

Now, please note that I'm not a python programmer of any standing and that I've mangled the code to make it shorter but keep it functional, to compare apples with apples.

If linecount was that important than I could shorten it by quite a bit further, but I don't think it is a very useful metric, especially not if you count whitespace lines in one and not in the other.

Btw, this one is now 16 lines. Not as small as the clojure example, but less than half of what it was before, I'm sure a real python guru could shorten that by another couple of lines, essentially there is no real significant difference between python and clojure here.

The solution where you claim an impressive speed boost is mostly due to the simply running a bunch of tasks in parallel, which when opening stuff through the network is of course a big boon.

If the files would have been resident the test would have been more meaningful, otherwise you would have to compare apples with apples by running multiple crawlers feeding a single reducer.

And that would have been a sample worth making, but you couldn't be bothered. Then the clojure program would probably have been much shorter than the python one.

By the way, running that counting example on my computer here I get a time of 5:47, which is about twice as fast as your clojure run, wonder why that would be. It is also _24_!! times as fast as the time that you report for python.

I'm not quite accusing you of cooking the books but it would be nice to have you find out what went so terribly wrong when you ran that test.

And so on. Really, I'm not impressed.

>

<comment><AUTHOR> jacques,

I'll try to get everything.

I didn't benchmark the 2 examples since they run about 8 hours each. I mentioned the next JVM release, only to highlight that some improvements are being implemented for BigInteger, which currently is a slow as can be.

Regarding the 2.nd example and linecounting. Firstly, if I counted blank lines with Python I apologize, I must have been a bit too fast going over it. Generally the line counting was not meant to be viewed as THE indicator for quality, as I obviously compressed the Clojure-code more than what was optimally - The irony didn't come across though.

Your speed on the webcrawler is really quite amazing. I hit it at 2200 here, which is around 4 o'clock on the east coast of the US if I'm not mistaking, using my 4Mbit line. It took exactly 1 hour and 53 minutes, so if yours run in 6 minutes ... Something was horribly wrong.

The fact that my gain is from opening several connections is not masked in anyway - I knew that was the key to speed, that's why I did it :)

Anyway, putting line counting aside I suggest focus be given to the clarity and expressiveness of the samples - where Python is not lacking. Line counting is fun for golfing.

/Lau

ps: Out of curiosity, did you get 8200+ something tasks from your crawl?

<comment><USER4> > I didn't benchmark the 2 examples since they run about 8 hours each.

ok.

> I mentioned the next JVM release, only to highlight that some improvements > are being implemented for BigInteger, which currently is a slow as can be.

Ok, Afaik BigIntegers are slow everywhere.

> Regarding the 2.nd example and linecounting. Firstly, if I counted blank > lines with Python I apologize, I must have been a bit too fast going over > it.

ok

> Generally the line counting was not meant to be viewed as THE indicator for > quality, as I obviously compressed the Clojure-code more than what was > optimally - The irony didn't come across though.

It didn't, besides that, it degrades the whole of your post to focussing on meaningless metrics.

> Your speed on the webcrawler is really quite amazing. I hit it at 2200 here, > which is around 4 o'clock on the east coast of the US if I'm not mistaking, > using my 4Mbit line. It took exactly 1 hour and 53 minutes, so if yours run > in 6 minutes ... Something was horribly wrong.

That was my take on it. When I saw how fast it did the first couple I decided to time it, I was quite surprised on seeing the results. Now I'm curious how fast clojure would run on this rig. fwiw it wasn't exactly doing nothing while running that test either, I just didn't feel like shutting stuff down.

> The fact that my gain is from opening several connections is not masked in > anyway - I knew that was the key to speed, that's why I did it :)

And you're _still_ twice as slow as my python run. I think that benchmarking anything in a context such as networking should be done by several runs at different times of day and presenting both the average as well as the min and max run times.

> Anyway, putting line counting aside I suggest focus be given to the clarity > and expressiveness of the samples - where Python is not lacking. Line > counting is fun for golfing.

I think that expressiveness in both languages is comparable, I don't really see a clear winner, it depends on the use case. I'm more used to imperative languages (for the moment) so I can read the python code a little easier but I've long ago learned that micro-optimizing the number of lines at the expense of clarity is a losing strategy.

> Out of curiosity, did you get 8200+ something tasks from your crawl?

here's the condensed output:

eleven:/tmp# date ; python examples.py

Mon Oct 19 16:49:35 EDT 2009

100 doors: 50 examples.

99 Bottles of Beer: 67 examples.

Abstract type: 18 examples.

Ackermann Function: 56 examples.

Active object: 8 examples.

Adding variables to a class instance at runtime: 16 examples.

Address Operations: 18 examples.

...

XML Creation: 17 examples.

XML Reading: 17 examples.

XML and XPath: 15 examples.

Xiaolin Wu's line algorithm: 3 examples.

Y combinator: 20 examples.

Yuletide Holiday: 30 examples.

Zig Zag: 27 examples.

Total: 8275 examples.

eleven:/tmp# date

Mon Oct 19 16:55:22 EDT 2009

eleven:/tmp#

\---

edit: I just saw jcl's post above, combining his trick with some more cramming we now have:

      from math import sqrt

      def is_prime(i): return (i > 1 and all(i % x != 0 for x in range(2, int(sqrt(i)) + 1)))

      def is_mersenne_prime ( p ):
        if p == 2: return True
        m_p = ( 1 << p ) - 1; s = 4;
        for i in range(3, p+1): s = (s ** 2 - 2) % m_p
        return s == 0

      for p in range(2, 33219):
        if is_prime(p) and is_mersenne_prime(p): print("M%d"%p);

There must be a way to make it shorter still ;)

<comment><USER5> Making it shorter is trivial :) I have never tried posting code here, so I I'll try to get the formatting right.

      #The import line is unnecessary. It can be inlined, like so:
      def is_prime(i): return (i > 1 and all(i % x != 0 for x in range(2, int(__import__('math').sqrt(i)) + 1)))

      #Mersenne prime can be put on one line with some functional beautification:
      def is_mersenne_prime(p): return p == 2 or not reduce(lambda x, y: (x ** 2 - 2) % (( 1 << p ) - 1), range(3, p + 1), 4)

      #With a list comprehension we do not need "if ..:" and can put the loop on one line as well:
      for p in [range(2,33219) if s_prime(p) and is_mersenne_prime(p)]: print("M%d"%p)

Three lines. Of course the functions are unnecessary, so inline them in the for-loop and we have our magic target, one line!

I have replaced the list comprehension and range with generators, so if you run this one-liner in your python terminal you will get a continuous stream of primes (if it flushes the prints properly).

      for q in (p for p in xrange(2,33219) if (p > 1 and all(p % x != 0 for x in range(2, int(__import__('math').sqrt(p)) + 1))) and (p == 2 or not reduce(lambda x, y: (x ** 2 -2) % (( 1 << p ) - 1), range(3, p + 1), 4))): print("M%d"%q)

Easy as pie.

I don't know anything about code golf, so perhaps I am breaking some rule with the longer than 80 char line? Using ; to sequence statements as in the original is definitely cheating, IMHO :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hi,

I just signed up for the single purpose of posting this, since quite a few Python users felt that the examples in the last post were poor - This time I've selected prime examples from Rosetta and despite jacques comment, the point wasn't to make Python look bad - it was exactly the opposite.

Lau out, hope you take something away from it.</comment>


The Brexit Short: How Hedge Funds Used Private Polls to Make Millions - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash <comment><USER2> This seems pretty fine to me.

Laws forbade publishing exit pools until 10pm, so hedge funds conducted their own research independently to have better information.

That's kind of how it is _supposed_ to work.

Bad laws/regulations preventing accurate information dissemination lead to financial incentives for those with the most accurate/up-to-date data.

I know HN isn't the most Hedge Fund friendly forum, but surely there's an appreciation here for these funds' efficiency and ability to seize opportunity.

<comment><USER3> I guess you mean "fine" as in "legal", not "fine" as in "ethically unobjectionable".

<comment><USER4> What is ethically objectionable about rich people gambling against other rich people, and some of them winning? It's not like these funds stole money directly from normal people.

<comment><USER5> In fact the money probably benefited some normal people. Tons of university endowments, sovereign wealth funds, and pension funds invest in hedge funds.

<comment><USER6> Given where the money they won comes from, surely an equal value (plus overhead) was lost by similar organisations?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I guess I'll ask the question: in the US, insider trading is (generally) trading on material non-public information. There are other nuances (various courts have found there needs to be a benefit or not and so on).

Is the law similar in the UK?

Does it even exist for currencies? Presumably not because there is no company to be the insider of?

<comment><USER8> >insider trading is (generally) trading on material non-public information

No, this isn't how it's defined in the US. It's completely legal to trade on material non-public information that you collect on your own via research (e.g. satellites looking at retail parking lots).

In the US, it's only illegal if you use information to trade that violates a fiduciary duty (e.g. using non-public information from a CEO).

<comment><USER7> I have to admit I am confused on this point.

I thought there was one theory that owning the stock makes one an insider because you are an owner.

I find people worried and thinking about this all over the web:

[https://www.ibtimes.com/should-hedge-funds-be-concerned- abou...](https://www.ibtimes.com/should-hedge-funds-be-concerned-about- insider-trading-alternative-data-2602756)

<comment><USER9> I think you're misunderstanding their theory of why it would be bad?

In the example where a hedge fund buys information from Best Buy about how many Panasonic TVs they sell, Best Buy may have a duty to Panasonic, and thus are an insider in that context, so if the hedge fund buys that data from Best Buy, they could potentially be trading on insider information.

It's not because they own the stock.

<comment><USER7> On rereading, that sounds right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The problem I see with companies selling private polls, is there's an incentive to release less accurate public polls. Why give away the good info for free, when the more accurate info is worth tons of money? A company wouldn't necessarily need to falsify the polling data, just poll less rigorously to produce a misleading result. Could current oversight prove that they were being intentionally misleading? Producing private results which counter the public results would make for very good business.

<comment><USER11> They'd only harm their reputation and ability to gain new clients.

There really is no need either. Early access to poll results and crosstab data excluded from public results is still extremely valuable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I always find cases like this really interesting, how predicting outcomes can lead to tons of success in markets. Political events like this are big money winners if you can predict the answer. Same with elections themselves for the affects of the person's plans.

Besides polling data, prediction markets always seem like the could be a legitimate way to guess results. I used to work at a place that ran those, but biggest problem is to make sure the members are committed to answering the questions and learning more about the situation. There's been proof that these cases can be successful.

Another event that comes up is company's quarterly reports that lead to giant price changes in their stock instantly. There are "specialist" predictions out there, but having better guesses leads to straight money. Knowledge of those numbers would be huge for traders, and us non-traders alike. Finding some legal and respectable way to predict these big outcomes would be incredibly valuable. Then again, if there was a correct way to make predictions, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

<comment><USER13> As someone who's stared at market news announcements for years, it's not that easy, even with the data. I've never traded on insider info (and neither should you!) but even when I had it, I didn't think it was that obvious which way things would go.

Often the market moves the opposite way of what you'd think, given the news. Any these can be reasonable:

"Rates went up, and that means firms will have a hard time borrowing, which lowers investment spending"

"Rates went up, but the market (risk assets) also went up because it's a sign the economy is healthy"

"Earnings were up, but people were hoping for a surprise"

The other entertaining one is when a CEO gets fired because of bad performance, and the price shoots up. Oh, the ignominy.

<comment><USER14> Don't forget "Rates went up, but the central bank struck a dovish tone so bonds rallied". Blegh.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I wonder if they continue to make money on the currency markets by getting advance inside information on what politicians will announce next? Quite a few Conservative party politicians either own hedge funds, have worked for them, or have family and friends with connections that would allow the free flow of advance information. Rees Mog is a partner in a hedge fund, it would be interesting to see his what's app chat history...

<comment><USER16> Fun fact: In the US, members of congress are legally exempt from insider trading rules!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> It's been explained to me a number of times but I still don't get it.

How does a short actually work?

The part I don't get is, how do you actually get out of the position and make the money?

<comment><USER18> Borrow shares, sell them, buy them back later (at a lower price, if all goes well), then return them.

<comment><USER10> What's the motivation of sharedholders to lend shares?

<comment><USER19> Let's say you're a manager at an index tracking pension fund. You're likely to be holding shares in the index at a proportion similar to the index weightings. And you're likely to hold most of them for the long term as you're required to track the index.

The key phrase is long term. It doesn't really matter to you whether or not a particular share price goes up or down in the short term as you aren't interested in selling.

So what you can do is lend the stock to a shorter. You enter into a contract where you give them X shares of a stock and they're obliged to give you X shares back in a few days regardless of any price move. They're also obliged to pay a fee for the service.

The net effect is that, instead of having X shares, you now have X shares and the fee.

The major risk for you is that they don't give you the shares back. That's why these contracts usually have collateral agreements such that, if they renege, you haven't lost out by much.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> So if private hedge funds had access to private polling data from YouGov which suggested that the £ was going to crash, who was driving the £ towards a cliff - and why would they not choose to have access to the same data?

</comment><comment><USER21> The issue was that certain of the hedge funds were also funding Brexit campaigning. I believe that was legal, but suspect it won't remain so for long.

</comment><comment><USER22> I was short this in a simple buy the rumor sell the news strategy

The pound had become overvalued in a rally leading up to the vote, so I shorted it on the vote being done with

I was at a company dinner with some now defunct startup and someone said "wow the pound is down 10%"

I yelled YES! And the founders asked me if I just quit

<comment><USER23> If I remember correctly the odds of brexit where like 48% but the pound was valued for 100% chance of bremain. Don't need to be an hedge fund to see there was a limited risk but big potential gain for this trade.

<comment><USER22> or just sell the news. I was only looking for a 1 or 2% move.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I really don't get how any of this would benefit the non-financial world in any way, this hyper-capitalism is just wrong to me.

</comment><comment><USER25> Reading this article I can't help but have the Supermicro fiasco in the back of my mind, making me question how accurate every detail is.

<comment><USER26> It's an old story, from 6 months ago, which has been pretty well corroborated by many other news channels since then. It's good to be skeptical, but this one is spot-on.

<comment><USER27> Robert Peston covered it in his book _WTF?_ which is more than a year old.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This might have been a 'secret', but even at the time, as the words were coming out of Farage's mouth, it was transparently obvious what was going on. How is this even a story?

</comment><comment><USER29> Conducting polls can be quite misleading. Remember the last US presidency election polls? They were totally inaccurate* Hedge funds could have lost a lot of money on this one.

*: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/31/upshot/a-2016-review-why-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/31/upshot/a-2016-review-why-key-state-polls-were-wrong-about-trump.html)

<comment><USER30> The polls were not that bad: [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls- are-all-right...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-are-all- right/). It's just that the outcome of US presidential elections can be changed by relatively small shifts in a handful of swing states.

<comment><USER31> > relatively small shifts in a handful of swing states.

And if a poll doesn't reflect that reality then it's not a good poll.

<comment><USER32> They were pretty indicative though. Trump only outperformed the national poll by 1-2 points and 2-3 points in the swing states. The whole 'polls are garbage' story that came out of 2016 isn't really supported by the data if you look at it.

The error has been pretty consistent forever, it's just hard to do a poll and have it line up exactly with reality because a poll is a sample in time of the thoughts of a subset that may not match who shows up. All of those factors go into why polls miss; some populations are harder to reach than others, news can come out between the poll and election day or bad weather could mess up your turnout model by keeping a lot of people home.

[https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-are-all- right...](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-are-all-right/)

<comment><USER33> > The whole 'polls are garbage' story that came out of 2016 isn't really > supported by the data if you look at it.

There were a lot of garbage poll-based predictions (the Clinton 90+% ones) based on assuming independence of polling errors. Predictions with claims of quantified likelihood based on polls are a fairly recent media phenomenon, and I think some of the legitimate reaction to how bad many of those were spilled over into polls themselves, because people don't understand that the polls weren't the source of the problem. (Which fed into existing political narratives against polling; propaganda definitely played a role but there was a real issue it interacted with.)

<comment><USER32> Yeah the use of the polls was the real failure in 2016. A narrative and conventional wisdom bias set in to the analysis in a lot of places that discounted close results in important states.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why I don't care that you use Ember - <AUTHOR> http://ox86.tumblr.com/post/42825824272/why-i-dont-care-that-you-use-ember

<comment><USER2> With a bit less negativity, this could have been a useful post, but it's really hard to extract the points from all the "rantyness". Even though I prefer Angular as my personal choice, I didn't think the post this responds to was that aggressive it provoked a response like this.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is like PC vs Mac all over again.

</comment><comment><USER4> A little off-topic here, but you should fix that your website background burns eyes.

<comment><AUTHOR> I forwarded your suggestion to the owner of the blog ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Poor title—it should be "why you should AngularJS instead of Ember.js".</comment>


MIT's 'cheetah' robot can run and jump - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/11264929/Watch-US-military-funded-running-and-jumping-cheetah-robot.html

<comment><USER2> and eat you.</comment>


Should I quit my job and go freelance? - <AUTHOR>

I am fed up with the constant bullshit that goes hand in hand with being an employee and am thinking about going freelance. I usually have a job or two on the side, so I am used to dealing with clients.
I am 30 now and have been developing professionally for nearly 10 years. I am experienced in PHP, Python, Javascript and a load of other things. I know I have the skills needed to make this happen. The only thing that holds me back is the fear of being able to pull in a steady stream of clients.
Ideally I would like to pair up with someone who has a solid idea but needs a tech guy to make it a reality.
Does anyone here have advice? Should I maintain a full time job while building clients on the side, or quit and put myself into a sink or swim situation? Am I making a poor decision by going freelance? <comment><USER2> Going freelance isn't in itself a poor decision. Quitting a paying job without a steady stream of work already lined up is.

Start trying to build a customer base on the side. Once they're bringing in enough to cover your expenses with a reasonably healthy percentage over that, then consider quitting your regular job.

Freelance work is not steady work, so you have to be sure that you can cover your expenses with regular work before you should be thinking about dropping a regular income for it.

You will need to build up a steady base of regular clients, and build up word of mouth. If you're not a designer, then it becomes really hard for people to discover you in any way other than word of mouth.

tl;dr: Don't quit your day job. Work extra hours until you're earning enough regularly and reliably to cover your expenses, then consider dropping your full-time job.

<comment><USER3> what works for some doesn't work for others. I quit my job without stream of work lined up and am not thinking of going back to a regular job.

IMO, It depends on whether you have enough savings or not (6+ months seems a minimum, I had more like 2 years) and whether you have a solid network already, and a few other parameters (your risk aversion for example).

Working a day job + having another salary worth of client work before you can leave seems like a recipe for burnout to me - but again, everyone's different.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Do you have in mind a list of potential clients ?

Basically you can go freelance two ways:

* Use a dedicated service like vWorker, oDesk etc ... You will compete with coders from all over the world, so expect some rough time until you build yourself a reputation. If you go this route I will strongly suggest to keep at least a part time job.

* You already have a list of potential clients and you intend to work for them directly. This is the preferred direction from my experience.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good advice. I do have a few jobs in progress right now and have been working with a small but established local design firm to pick up more clients.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> How much runway do you have? If you have enough savings to survive without bringing a dime in for, say, 3 months, give it a shot. If things don't work out, you can always find another job.

<comment><USER6> 3 months is light, I had a client not pay when I was using the 3 month rule and it was a bad situation. 6 is a better rule of thumb. I would not jump with at least 6 in the bank.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Where are you located?

<comment><AUTHOR> Chicago

<comment><USER7> I might fit your scenario as to pairing with someone with a solid idea. I'm currently looking to have my idea built. I have zero technical skills (started Codeyear) and I will use my own money to get started. Just finished a fireworks click-through prototype only after learning about it here on HN. Either way, I am interested in paying to have it built or hopefully find someone interested enough to be a partner. Would love to find a competent and trustworthy person to move things forward.

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome I'd like to hear more. You can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.com (new email address set up for HN... trying to maintain anonymity for this thread).</comment></comment></comment></comment>


I've Seen the Future and It's Not Google Glass - <AUTHOR> http://athingilike.svbtle.com/ice-seen-the-future-and-its-not-google-glass

<comment><USER2> [http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/down-the-vr-rabbit- hol...](http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/down-the-vr-rabbit-hole-fixing- judder/)</comment>


Did Arrington actually pull off the CrunchPad WiFi tablet? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.dustincurtis.com/could-arrington-have-pulled-off-the-crunchpad

<comment><USER2> Even at $300, I would buy 10 of these for my company. Touch-screen + WiFi + Browser = ability for me to get rid of every single bulky PC on our assembly line. If it has USB, then I can hook up a barcode scanner and completely change how our process works. Right now, it is such a hassle to setup a PC with touch-screen and deal with maintenance etc. Good touch-screen LCDs cost $300 at least and it's a pain to deal with the drivers. Netbooks are good but I don't need a keyboard and don't want to deal with a full-fledged OS. Tablets are perfect but so expensive and a hassle to lock-down. Given all the time in the world, I'm sure most of us could rig up something under $500 similar to what the Crunchpad tablet aims to be. But I'd rather get a stable/solid system that I can easily buy more of when needed.

 _crossing fingers_

<comment><USER3> If the topmost port in the fourth picture of [http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/19/techcrunch-tablet- updat...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/19/techcrunch-tablet-update- prototype-b/) is not a USB port, I don't know what it is. Since a barcode scanner is basically a keyboard, you almost certainly don't even need any extra support from them. I think you're in luck.

(Also, I don't want to make a separate post: That link also says "we were aiming for $200, it looks like $299 is more realistic".)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> TechCrunch would never respect a company asking them to take down leaked photos... and these weren't leaked, they were published publicly. By which I mean: Can someone who has local copies of these put them up somewhere? (Dustin?)

I'd be interested to see them.

Also, not sure what the netbook comment in the post really means. It was pretty evident how big netbooks were going to be after the first Eee PC went for sale, which was late 2007. But that doesn't really matter, since Arrington's tablet isn't really anything like a netbook (at least, not as they're traditionally defined now).

We're going to start to see a lot of cheap, touchscreen tablet PCs running Linux and Android (and maybe Windows 7), though, over the next couple of years.

<comment><USER5> It is nicely designed. Here is what it looks like:

[http://zee.posterous.com/did-arrington-actually-pull-off- the...](http://zee.posterous.com/did-arrington-actually-pull-off-the- crunchpad)

<comment><USER6> And this is what the packaging looks like: <http://bit.ly/WTxHK>

[update] pictures are back up at the original posting

</comment></comment></comment><comment> patrickg-zill They should add two white knobs along the bottom ... and an accelerometer that allows you to hold it over your head and shake it to put it into screensaver mode ...

</comment><comment><USER7> I think it is astounding that Arrington (and everyone else on the team -- I'm sure there are many) was able to pull this off. A lot of people have bones to pick with him, and he can certainly be a little brusque (speaking as a former TechCrunch intern), but he is one incredibly capable guy -- a consistently excellent writer, bitingly funny commentator, and, apparently, a mean product designer/manager. I almost wish TechCrunch didn't take up so much of his time -- there's probably a lot more he could be doing.

</comment><comment><USER8> [http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/19/techcrunch-tablet- updat...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/19/techcrunch-tablet-update- prototype-b/)

Info on an earlier prototype + video. 3 months ago the software was pretty workable and the had the hardware, albeit thicker than it should've been. So it seems perfectly plausible that it's ready now.

</comment><comment><USER9> I actually own crunchpad.com, wonder if I should do anything with it

<comment><USER10> redirected it to the blog post?

<comment><USER9> already doing that

<comment><USER11> not if you want to make some money out of it..you need to justify you own domain because your have business tied to it and nothing to do with their brand..and then only you can hold it/may be later sell it..careful, arrington is from domain industry so it is tough party on other end ..so be smart in how you handle.. (assuming you want money..) if not then it is pretty easy just send email

<comment><USER12> I'd agree with this guy. WIPO is ridiculously quick to snipe away your domain name and give it to someone with a trademark if you don't have a legitimate business or use for the name.

I would highly recommend creating at least some fake company or intention out of the page so you can say you wanted the domain for something else. With a name like "Crunch-Pad" I'd suggest making it a simple Web 2.0 to-do list like pat.io.

At least that way you could let them buy it off you if they were interested.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If the $200 price tag is real, I see myself putting one of these babies in my bathroom in front of the toilet, another one in my kitchen. Imagine one in your living room hooked up to your media center/TV/etc.

<comment><USER14> I'll hang one in my garage for when I'm out working on something... At 200 bucks, if it gets a little motor oil on the screen, I'm not going to worry about it too much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> For $200 a pop I can tile one wall of my office with them for $16,000.

That sounded smart before I typed it.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'll believe it when I have one in my hands :-)

</comment><comment><USER17> It looks so slick, and then picture 4 is the power adapter with a guy holding a soda can in his crotch at the top of the frame.

What's amazing about Apple (from whom they seem to have taken packaging design cues) is not an initial sheen of beauty, but that they keep the beauty going throughout the experience.

</comment><comment><USER18> Where are they getting the touch screens?

<comment><USER19> Does it matter? Aren't they a commodity?

<comment><USER18> A year ago when this was conceived, no, not really, but it looks like the price has indeed come down sufficiently to make this viable. [http://interstore.com/product/139-1460/348348-001+LCD+KIT+R/...](http://interstore.com/product/139-1460/348348-001+LCD+KIT+R/348348-001_-_HP_TC1000_and_TC1100_10.4_XGA_1024x768_Laptop_Touchscreen_LCD_Module_Kit_Complete_Refurbished.html?ref=base) is one I found.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If this thing is real, I'm going to be buying more than a few of them.

</comment><comment><USER20> Looks like the world's biggest iPhone.

<comment><USER21> I am going to buy one just to use it as a huge novelty phone gag.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Now I just have to figure out how to waterproof it so I can read The Economist in the tub.

</comment><comment><USER23> regardless of arrington's involvement, i really like this idea and really would like to see it have at least some success. it could only mean good things for the direction of netbooks.

</comment><comment><USER20> I would buy one if I could take hand-written notes on it. That's the ability that I most envy my friends with tablets for.

</comment><comment><USER24> so where exactly is the address to his posterous account? I only knew of the techcrunch.posterous.com account.

<comment><USER25> Photos were there (at techcrunch.posterous.com), but it seems like he removed them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> CrunchGear post about it: "Leaks are always hardest when they hit home."

[http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/04/09/crunchtablet-hits- the-n...](http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/04/09/crunchtablet-hits-the-net-a- little-early/)

</comment><comment><USER27> What's the difference between that and a Windows Tablet (apart from the price)?

<comment><USER28> Capacitive touchscreen! I was pleasantly surprised, I thought it would be resistive. Almost all Windows Tablets have inductive digitizers, where you can only use a special stylus (like a Wacom), but you get angle/distance/pressure information.

Most new Tablet PCs also cost 6-10 times more, and have awful battery life because they are overpowered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> As stated in the comments over there: it's a mockup. And I'm pretty sure it is, been a while since an update on the crunchpads and all of a sudden they're in production? Nahhh, don't think so.

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow, the pictures are already taken off.

</comment><comment><USER29> I want one.

</comment><comment><USER30> An iphone that does not fit in my pocket...where do i sign up?

<comment><USER31> Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Kindly refrain.

<comment><USER30> Apparently Oscar Wilde said that.

I thought puns were the lowest form of wit.

I also just read that wit is the highest form of sarcasm. Does that make puns a high form of sarcasm?

<comment><USER32> Puns may be bad, but poems are verse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Reminds me of the original iBook...antiquated design.</comment>


Show HN: Mapipedia - <AUTHOR> A web platform I've written to make it easy for people to share goespatial time series data and display it on animated heatmaps. There's also a social media component that allows you to write comments, follow, share and like data sets that you want to engage with. You can also download the CSV data and embed animations into your own websites. People uploading datasets can also choose to make money by accepting donations.
Please check out the home page for more details: https://mapipedia.com
Here are some samples of things created with the platform (press the play button to start the animations!)
1. USA Formation (states and flags): https://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/united_states_of_america_fo...
2. Average Life Expectancy: http://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/average_life_expectancy_by_c...
3. Growth of The Salvation Army: https://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/growth_of_the_salvation_arm...
4. Aids Related Deaths: https://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/aids_related_deaths_worldwi...
5. Prevalence of overweight children under 5: https://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/prevalence_of_overweight_ch...
6. Population Growth: https://mapipedia.com/s/u/drdave/global_population_growth_si...
Thanks for taking the time to check it out.  This is the first time I've actually told anyone about this platform. I've been very close to it for a long time so it will be good to get feedback from others. All feedback is appreciated!
Cheers David <comment> maze-le Hi there,

is it possible to have different shapes for different timesteps? The borders of the states of today were very different 120 years ago. Some were radically diffrent (Germany, Russia), some didn't even exist (Slovakia, Croatia, Sub Sahara-African Nations), some don't exist anymore today (Austro-Hungarian Empire).

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, thanks for your question. It kind of is. I would like to get to the point where I could change the maps over time to accurately represent things. However, there is some limited capacity to do it now through the use of region groups. So you can't change the regions themselves, but you can group them together. For example, you could model USSR as Russia and some of the Eastern European countries (I haven't created a youtube video on how to do that yet, but it's pretty easy - there is an example in the USA formation animation where Virginia gets split into West Virginia and Virginia around 1863). Region groups were also created to represent data on larger scales. For example if you want to represent a sales region for Western Europe you could group those countries together in a region group. Then your CSV data would only need to have one row for 'Western Europe' that would then shade all the regions in that group.

<comment> maze-le Thanks for the fast reply, the grouping option sounds like a good solution as a first step -- there might be instances where this is not applicable -- especially if you'r going further back in time [e.g. the principalities of the Holy Roman Empire were radically different to the german Bundesländer today].

Very cool project btw...

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I know what you mean. I would love to be able to show the actual boundaries changing over time. I've thought of a way to do that but don't have the data, but I think it wouldn't be too hard to do. Another idea I was thinking about was for the CSV data itself to help define the boundary. For example, if you wanted to track the amount of land that ISIS had over time, your CSV data could define which towns (or lat/lon) belonged to which group and then page could 'join the dots' to create the boundaries. Then the boundaries could be created arbitrarily. There would be some other complications that would need to be solved, but that's one of the ideas I've been thinking about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> The average life expectancy page is excellent. I'm not a design person, so I have nothing useful to say about that aspect of the page, but the information it presents is mind boggling. I really want to know what happened to Algeria in 1849.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I've noticed that there are a lot of data sets out there on the web, but there are not many that explain why the data behaves the way it does. Adding events to data was a big part of the reason I created the site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Stating the obvious but a redesign wouldn't hurt, also copy like "Make $$$ by Accepting Donations!" doesn't help.

Otherwise the visualization itself is sound, having multiple views linked is neat. But I personally would rather use an open-source JS library and host it on my own websites.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. You're right there are some good open source libraries out there. Part of the reason I created this site is so that someone with no programming experience can just paste excel data into the page to create animations (I've setup a YouTube channel with some tutorials on there). I think you make a good point about the $$$ comment. I'll have to see if I can come up with something better. Cheers

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like it a lot!

Though, I would like to share some feedback:

\- Many visulization would benefit from adding an optional logarithmic scale. Or at least "per capita".

\- While I love the interactivity, and other features (downloading CSV data, etc), I think the design (colors, edges, etc) would benefit from some polish.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, there is already a log scale in there but it's a bit hidden. You can click the 'Options' in the 'How' section and change the scale. I've also thought about a per capita option (which would be pretty straight forward for sets where I have the population) so that if say someone puts the total amount of carbon emission in there by country it would be an option to convert that per capita. If only I had more time in the day :)

<comment><AUTHOR> There seems to be a lot of feedback on updating the design. Perhaps I should move that up the priority list!

<comment><USER5> I would agree with that feedback. The actual visualization is one of the coolest things I've seen in a while, and it makes the UI's slightly less-than- cool design really stand out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for that confirmation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hello David,

Very interesting project. If you improve the design to something more modern it will attract many people. But still, I found it very interesting and learned some new things by checking the average life expectancy :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Yeah, I'm the first to admit I'm not a front end designer. I've started talking to someone about updating the design but nothing is locked in yet so if you can recommend anyone let me know! While we're on the topic, I could do with someone who's good at social media marketing. Cheers

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> On Safari, for the home page, I just see a blank page, and a TypeError in the console.

The other pages work, but it looks like I'm getting some sort of blown-up mobile view, even on my desktop. The text and buttons are 2 or 3 inches tall.

It's a cool concept, and launching is always the hard part, so I know it's only going to get better from here on out.

UPDATE: In Firefox, the home page is also blank. I don't see a TypeError but I'm having trouble figuring out the JS console. The other pages are normal- sized, not mobile views.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, thanks for that. I just noticed that it stopped working for me as well. The server was complaining about having too many open files. I've just restarted it so hopefully it will work for you this time! I also fixed a possible cause for the TypeError. Cheers

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Great, David.

Free idea: this is a great resource. People will want access to this. Increase its "linkedness". Internal links (related maps, recommended maps, etc) make it easy for people to navigate in site (Amazon is great at this). External inbound links (SEO, embed-capability for journalists, etc) help people get on site.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. There is already the ability to embed maps into other pages. However if you didn't find it that probably says something about the design of the site. There are some internal links (each page will show the other pages by the same author that are public) but they could certainly be done better. It's a bit hard to do at this stage because there's not many pages in there. Thanks again for the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is really neat! I do work for a non-profit that does advocacy for child maltreatment legislation, this could prove useful. Not just for us but for any group that needs to visually present timeseries data, especially given that it seems difficult for smaller non-profits to attract tech talent.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I'm hoping that non-profits put their data on the site and share the link (or embed the animation into their own sites) so that they can increase awareness on important issues. There's also a paid subscription option for people who want to keep their data private which I'm hoping that companies will use if they want to keep track of sales or other sensitive data. Everyone can have a small number of private pages for free. There's a products page that goes over some of the options.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Does anyone have any comments about performance relating to things like load times, animation speed and response to user actions? Also, feel free to contact me directly at dnphilpot (at) gmail.com if you have any other questions, comments or ideas. Cheers David

</comment><comment><USER10> Amazing concept. I am a very visual learner and I find this fascinating.

In school I often got disengaged by history because of the way it was taught, unfortunately. Projects like this can improve learning a lot!

The Average Life Expectancy one is 100% worth spending some minutes, even hours reading.

Keep the awesome work David.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I'm the same. Having something represented the right way visually can make a huge difference. The education sector is definitely one of my targets so it's great to get that feedback. I'm keen for people to create pages, upload data and to help to add more context to history. Hopefully the Mapipedia platform makes that easy for others to do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Good concept!

Very good that you've decided to go live without waiting for a fancy design for your front-end. Early feedback is more valuable for this product.

Nice job.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Yeah, I was keen to start getting some feedback sooner rather than later and I thought this was the perfect forum for it. I figured if it looked like no one was going to show any interest there might not be much point paying someone to tidy it up (although I suppose there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation there ... if it looked better more people might show an interest!). How did you find the performance in terms of load times and execution speed on your computer? Thanks again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Cool!

Perhaps you could also support real-time sensor data? Services as Luftdaten.info would love to have these visualizations.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, one of my future plans is to setup an API so real-time data could be entered into the site. I also want to make changes so that point data can be added in (i.e. lat/lon) so that it's easy to do real time tracking of things - e.g. whales, birds, ships, ... etc. The lat/lon changes would also allow things like earthquakes, fires, floods, world's tallest buildings over time, 7 wonders of the world ... etc to also be mapped.

<comment><USER12> Nice!

Keep in mind that some stuff (such as 7 wonders of the world) and other somewhat stationary data is better added in OpenStreetMap - but for the other cases, you're tool could be a good solution. I'm looking forward to updates to it!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks again for that feedback. Yeah, with stuff like the 7 wonders of the world I think you're right in that it's well covered in other ways. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the ancient wonders of the world. I think events showing when they existed, and how long for, would add an extra dimension to people's understanding. For example, I don't know if they all existed at the same time or not (which of course a simple Google search would reveal), or how many years ago the first wonder was constructed, or how many years apart they were. I'll try it out at some point and see what people's reaction is to it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Link #2 says "localhost" instead of "mapipedia.com". Perhaps you can still edit the post.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I just updated it. Cheers

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> That's impressive, great job!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Is doesnt look good on mobile

<comment><AUTHOR> I have put some effort into mobile, but I have to admit I've struggled to get it to work well. The larger screens and use of a mouse means it works much better on laptop/desktops. Can you give me any further details about the parts of the mobile display that didn't work very well? Can you give me more details about the mobile you were you using (I've not had a chance to do a lot of testing on mobile devices)? Cheers

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Impressive!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: would doing freelance work on the side be a conflict of interest? - <AUTHOR>

I've been wanting to get into freelancing for a few years, but I don't have the savings I would need to jump into it full-time.  Because of that, I'm thinking about trying to take on a single project at a time that I could do on the side.
My concern is that I'm currently working at a development contracting company that creates products for third party companies.  Basically, the same type of thing that I'd be trying to do on the side.
I'm afraid that this would be seen as a conflict of interest, and I'm looking for outside input to see if I'm right in thinking that, or if there's a way that I could still approach freelancing while still maintaining my current position.  The only thing in my favor that might make this not be seen as a conflict is that the company I work for won't do projects below a certain dollar value, which I would definitely do freelancing on my own.
Still a conflict of interest?  Any way to get started while keeping my job?  Thanks! <comment><USER2> Your company might have an official (or unofficial) policy about such things. The safest thing to do would be to ask.

Some companies demand that all of your software development work, even if done at your home on your own time, be strictly for them. Other companies don't care what you do outside of your job, just so long as it doesn't compete with what they are doing. Note that as a freelancer, some clients might make similar non-compete demands, so even if your employer is okay with your freelancing, your freelance client might not be okay with your employer!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply. The company I work for is great in the sense that I am allowed to develop and monetize my own personal products outside of work. I even emailed the CEO previously to verify (it's a small company, so it makes sense to ask directly), who said to go for it and that they even encourage it.

This is different though in the sense that these wouldn't be my ideas/projects, but rather somebody else's. I'll have to follow up with the CEO again I suppose.</comment></comment>


Blip.tv deletes Python content - <AUTHOR> http://holdenweb.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/bliptv-deletes-python-content.html

<comment><USER2> Maybe it's cynical of me, but this reads like an admission that the company is failing and trying to cut costs to keep the lights on a bit longer. As a content hosting company you don't irrevocably delete your customers' data without warning and then expect "the best original web series" to rely on your service.

Still, I'm a bit surprised that there was no offer to transition to a paid tier or an opportunity to download your media first. Yes, the users should have had local copies, but it's a fact of life that some people won't.

EDIT: I'm basing my assumption of no offer to download your content on of Osvaldo Santana Neto's blog post comment. From jsdalton's HN comment[1] and the replies to it, that may or may not be correct.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7008324](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7008324)

<comment><AUTHOR> As noted elsewhere, notification seems to have been the big issue. I've spoken to some (reputable) people, who said that they basically just got lucky by randomly logging in shortly before the big wipe happened, and seeing a "This account is expiring" notice which gave them enough heads-up to grab copies if they didn't have them already. They didn't receive emails or any other type of off-site notification.

So someone who didn't log in to their blip account might well be totally screwed, since they wouldn't have known they needed to make or check on their backups.

<comment><USER3> For Adium we got an email confirmation ~3 weeks before things went away. I'm not sure how (if at all) we configured that. Seems like a short notification window, but at least we got an email.

Did the owner(s) of the Python account not get that email?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I don't know how similar the situation was, but Blip.tv did this to Rich Hickey's Clojure videos a year ago.

[https://twitter.com/richhickey/status/279210140425674754](https://twitter.com/richhickey/status/279210140425674754)

        > @blip tv cancels the #Clojure video series without
        > warning, after 4 years of my being a paid customer!
        > If you were a viewer, let them know.

(Vids were since moved to Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV](http://www.youtube.com/user/ClojureTV))

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Blip was already going downhill for a long time, but this is the final nail in the coffin. By deleting without the option of recovery (so that content producers can't retrieve and re-host elsewhere), they have demonstrated firmly in my mind that they cannot be trusted with content, and the broader community should be aware of this.

<comment><USER5> That's really sucky, but I'm surprised that they didn't give the opportunity to download the source content? We got the exact same notice but were given 30 days to download our videos. This is the relevant part of the email I received:

We want to give you the opportunity to download your episodes if you don't have them saved or backed up. We're giving you a 30-day window to do this using the following page on the producer dashboard:

[http://blip.tv/dashboard/get_video_download_list](http://blip.tv/dashboard/get_video_download_list)

<comment><AUTHOR> People I've talked to say that they didn't get any emails or such about it. Some content may have been saved due to someone fortuitously logging into their account and seeing a "You're about to expire" notice.

But overall the way this was handled seems to be terrible, and not even close to how I'd go about trying to show off a company as a place to bring content to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I am a long time reader of HN. I was planning to introduce a site that we are working some time in the coming month and get HN feedback. But based on the discussion in this thread, I believe this will be a good time to talk about it. The URL for the site is www.reedwith.us and is currently in beta.

This is a site where you can upload any professional content like a video, a pdf or a presentation using your LinkedIn user name and password and discuss. To serve the professional community needs, in the topic and discussion sections physical, mathematical and chemical equations and code snippets can be included.

For example, if you type "perceptual" in the search bar, Perceptual grouping presentation will be shown as a result. You can look at the presentation. If you scroll down on the page you will see the Topic and Discussion sections. There, you will see code snippets, equations etc. You can start a new topic or participate in the discussion. You can also form groups and discuss privately with members of your team.

We are very interested in hosting the videos that were deleted by blip.tv. In addition, you can upload any professional content that you would to like share with public or a private group.

It is still a work in progress and I would be very happy to hear from you through this site or using the contact us form located in [http://reedwith.us/contact.html](http://reedwith.us/contact.html)

<comment><USER7> That looks nice, and useful, but giving you access to my linkedin account is a no-go. I get enough spam from it as it is.

<comment><USER6> Thanks for your feedback. We are using LinkedIn authentication, to ensure that the content and discussion in the site will be professional.

We do not intend to send any unnecessary email to any of our users. I hate getting spam and I do not want to spam my users. We have set up the site, so that users have to opt-in for us to send any news-letter etc. They can choose to receive news-letter by going to their 'Settings' page.

When users form private groups, groups members will be notified via email. This is the only occasion when we send email to users.

Also, you do not have to login to view the content or read the discussion. However, you need to login to upload content, participate in discussion, form private groups etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Some might be saved at [https://archive.org/details/bliptv](https://archive.org/details/bliptv) see [http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Blip.tv](http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Blip.tv)

Also long ago IIRC blip.tv had an upload option to make a copy of the the upload at the Internet Archive. Not sure how many uploaders used it or how long it was in place.

Copying your important media to the Internet Archive is always a good idea, whether you're originally publishing to someplace like blip or yt, or self- hosting.

</comment><comment><USER9> I'm wondering whether this would be a good moment for the tech communities to implement their own decentralized video hosting infrastructure.

I'd imagine a specialized command line capable bittorrent client that automatically transcodes content to the best/preferred video format for streaming.

Each community could then setup a couple of official servers to share the load by indefinitaly seeding the content. These servers could autosubscribe to each others contents, knowing that their content is curated by the respective community. Determined individuals and companies could setup slave clients for these official master nodes.

If the communities agree on the core functionality they could even have a kind of competition over the best imlementation in their respective language, python, clojure, whatever.

This way we could get away from the proprietary video hosting sites and their annoyances (eg. automated DCMA takedowns without proper review).

</comment><comment><USER10> not all python content was removed.

this account was specifically kept open as a service to the community: [http://blip.tv/pycon-us-videos-2009-2010-2011](http://blip.tv/pycon-us- videos-2009-2010-2011)

if anyone knows of other important pycon content that was deleted in the past few months, please email links or blip account names to support at blip tv.

<comment><USER11> You do know that you're doing this backwards, don't you?

<sheesh>

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> They did the same with clojure videos a year ago.

</comment><comment><USER13> Anytime you use a free service, you do so with the full knowledge that this is the likely eventual outcome. I'm amazed that people are still so 'shocked and outraged' every single time something like this happens.

<comment><USER14> Why would this be intrinsic to a free service?

"As of $date, our pricing tier no longer allows for $X GB of data. You have until $otherdate to upgrade before we delete the difference."

"We're shutting down so here's a refund. Oh, and we're going offline immediately. Bye!"

A subscription or paid option doesn't make a business solvent even a little bit. It might be _easier_ , but the business model must still be sustainable & viable.

<comment><USER13> True. But when a company is giving you something for free, it's absurd to expect that company to keep giving it to you. It could disappear at any moment and you don't really have a leg to stand on in terms of wanting any more from them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I bet it was the Killer Joke they removed for our sake: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I3zCQzZx68](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I3zCQzZx68)

</comment><comment><USER16> Why?

<comment><USER17> It's not just python content, they have been doing this with various content that has small audiences ("underperforming content").</comment></comment>