The financial struggles of a breast pump startup - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-21/a-smart-breast-pump-mothers-love-it-vcs-don-t <comment><USER2> I'm an exclusively pumping parent right now.

Naya isn't the first company to try to do something like this. Willow and Anabella are two other companies/devices trying to sell people on a better pump. Anabella's indiegogo campaign has made the rounds in all my pumping groups like 100 times on its promise of getting 100% milk out (it's a common idea that pumps right now can't get all available milk out like babies' mouths can). Willow is being sold on the idea that it fits in your bra without any tubes or hassle, which is a big deal for people wishing to discreetly pump in workplaces and such.

But having used the top-of-the-line (Symphony and Ameda hospital grade pumps) all the way down to home-grade and manual pumps (Spectra S2, Freestyle, etc.) in the past 6 months - pretty sure it doesn't matter how effective the pump is or how comfortable it ends up being. The act of pumping itself is very difficult for many people and time consuming, and when you have employers, coworkers, and family/friends that don't respect your need to pump, you end up not pumping rather than doubling down with your $1k pump.

Especially in the face of the fact that most parents in the US will qualify to get a free home-grade pump through insurance (including through WIC etc.) and that without insurance the average pump is only $100-200 plus supplies another $50-100 - along with an expectation to replace the pump every time you have a new child (the pump itself does wear out - I wear them out prematurely due to EPing :) )... I think these companies face a lot more problems than they're willing to acknowledge. VCs may be frustrating to work with here, but a lot of questions remain. I still wish these companies the best of luck though, as all technology has to start somewhere and then maybe becomes cheaper and more accessible over time :) Breast pumps decades ago look like torture devices in comparison to what's available now.

edit to add: full disclosure, I haven't purchased or preordered any of the crop of new pumps. pretty much none of them support my (large) nipple size, and none of them seem to have worked closely with EPers as it is difficult to near impossible to find a pump that also promises that they'll have parts available for replacement. due to pumping all the damn time, I have to replace parts fairly frequently.

<comment><USER3> I had mixed reactions to this article. On the one hand, as a parent I've often thought about neglected business opportunities to meet certain fertility, pregnancy, and parenting needs, and this article resonated with that for me.

But on the other hand, as you're mentioning, this area is a lot more complex than the article is letting on.

My wife pumped exclusively until our child was about 1.5 years old, and one thing I noticed was that as she went on, she went from various hand pumps to various electric pumps, and then back to hand pumps for several months because the paraphernalia and power requirements involved were more troublesome than they were worth.

I remember reading about this pump in early stages, and it sounded wonderful, and still sounds nice. But I'm not sure my wife would have actually been interested in it after a certain point in time, because it's still bulkier than a basic hand pump. At that big of price, they'd actually be losing out on two points, the extreme price and the bulk. Maybe going into pumping at the beginning, she would have purchased it if it had been available, but it's difficult for me to say. It's very expensive for what you'd be getting relative to the alternatives.

<comment><USER2> Yes. We had fertility issues too (so hard to find apps that support that!) and as a mostly-SAHP here I feel out of place in SF and struggle to find resources beyond facebook groups. Resources like Winnie ([https://winnie.com/](https://winnie.com/)), in fact, which reduces a lot of my stress over taking a baby to a restaurant. I can definitely get on the rage-train about these things not getting funding while Juicero and Theranos throw away $$$$$$$.

I think there's even more that I haven't delved into in my comment that might be a concern. As you point out, yup, experiences and preferences are all over the map. I'm sure these companies did their market research, and all three of the ones I mentioned definitely target pain points for pumpers (comfort, milk amount, and ease-of-use). I'm sure cost will become less of an issue once insurances start partially covering the pumps. Just, who knows if it will work out, it's complex for sure. And I say this as one of the few(er) parents that would not hesitate to drop $1k on a new pump if I could.

Hell, there is even a video making the rounds in my EP groups of someone demonstrating hand-expressing 6 ounces (a lot!) of milk, for underproducers and for people stuck in hurricane-stricken-no-power areas to learn from. Too bad Facebook keeps removing the videos for explicit content. But the half hour of wringing out a boob just to feed your baby... many parents will definitely do whatever it takes!

Your wife is a saint. I am so sick of looking at pumps (all four of my pumps...) and pump parts. I am quitting cold turkey on day 366 of pumping. No pump design for no amount of money will help me with that, hah.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> My first reaction: maybe investors just don't want to fund an overpriced piece of hardware that provides dubious value compared to existing solutions.

My second reaction: well they gave $120M to Juicero.

<comment><USER5> Pumping is painful, and women who pump are often working moms, so they'll have money. Getting rid of daily physical pain is worth a lot of money. I'm flabbergasted why this isn't a "shut up and take my money" situation.

<comment><USER6> Maybe market size? There are ~4 million births per year in the US. What percentage of women buy a pump?

<comment><USER7> The market is not just women. Hospitals purchase hospital grade pumps for rental.

And the percentage of women who purchase pumps might increase with more and better options and affordability through insurance, etc.

<comment><USER6> The demand is still limited by the number of births. Rentals just make them more available.

Anyway, my question isn't meant to be dismissive, the rough percentage of recent mothers that choose to use a pump is important information in trying to figure out the potential market size.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > "Investors would say, 'Let me go talk to my sister; let me go talk to my > wife,'" Alvarez said.

Well yes. I would be thoroughly disappointed in any investor that doesn't check for suitability with somebody they trust that has a high likelihood of deeper knowledge in the area.

I expect their 4x current model price is a huge factor in failing to attract investment, the NHS and ObamaCare are unlikely to cover these in the vast majority of situations.

But I also don't doubt she is having a hard time and that the disgusting things she is quoting occurred; I have overheard and been present for many less than desirable comments - both from men and women - in professional settings.

EDIT: Just took a look at pumps available in the UK, for £50-150 I get lots of pumps advertising comfort etc. I would need to have an independent doctor or trusted woman with first-hand experience of these not being suitable to be convinced of any kind of mass market appeal.

</comment><comment><USER9> 1) The total addressable market for a $1,000 breast pump might be outside of VC spectrum and more up small business financing or "Shark Tank" alley.

2) Women don't breastfeed their entire lives, so the units hit the used market pretty quickly, generating pricing pressure. Sales figures might look spectacular year 1, but what about year 5? VCs have access to market research data and executives at medical device companies who can probably provide them with better statistics.

3) Typical setup involves a hospital or a medical group buying a bunch of high-end pumps and renting them on a monthly basis (PSA for those who might need it: Kaiser Permanente will rent a breast pump to non-members).

4) Their main innovation seems to involve a different suction cup design that performed better for the target group they chose. How much a competitive moat is there? What's stopping Medela or a third-party parts supplier from building similar suction cups for a variety of breast pumps that's already out there?

<comment><USER5> A $500 pump is listed too. And people often have more than 1 kid. And this looks like a great baby shower gift. Or wedding present from pushy parents.

<comment><USER9> All valid points, but customer acquisition in that market is not zero. Amazon search results for electric breast pumps are 7 pages, many with 5-star reviews from verified purchasers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There are a lot of armchair comments here, so let me throw in my 2¢: the market is bigger than you think, customers will place a heavy premium on new over used, they are willing to spend more than you think, and they aren't especially happy with the existing offerings. Making hardware is difficult, but that isn't news, and moderate success could end in a quick sale to an established player. Yes this is timed to be good PR, but isn't that how you play the game?

<comment><USER11> Unless you have data backing up your assertions, you're comments are from the armchair too.

<comment><USER12> I think 'ynniv made it pretty clear that they're aware that their input is cheap (or at least that's my 2¢).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Something in the article that jumped out at me was:

"But the couple still couldn't raise money. As cash got tight, the founders asked their eight full-time employees, who are mostly in the San Francisco Bay area, to work for minimum wage, which would buy the company a few months of extra runway. The staff agreed."

The 8 employees must have drastically reduced the cash flow requirements by just being paid minimum wage. My question is, is that any different than directly investing into the company and giving the company cash outright like a VC?

The employees made an investment into the company like a VC would by giving extra runway to the company. I wonder if the employees received any equity compensation for doing so under the same terms that the Alvarez's are trying to raise financing under. Getting paid higher than minimum wage and needing financing which dilutes you or taking minimum wage reducing the need for financing but getting no equity for it seems unfair to the employees.

They never mentioned that detail in the article but it's something I always think about when founders and executives ask employees to make these sacrifices and take on added risk but without ever compensating employees like they would compensate other capital with equity for the risk they take.

</comment><comment><USER14> I am confused by this article. They were able to raise 6.5 million initially, which is not insignificant. But when they weren't able to raise more money anecdotes about sexism are mentioned?

I don't doubt for a minute that there is rampant sexism in the Valley but they were able to raise money just not a second round. This is not uncommon.

</comment><comment><USER15> My wife's pump was covered by her insurance company. Do you think this might be covered too? If so, I can't imagine why a VC wouldn't want to get into a business where consumers WANT the product and don't even have to make a financial decision about it.

<comment><USER16> I'm guessing that that would require FDA approval, making it unattractive as the initial market.

<comment><USER17> If you read the article, you'd see that the pump in question already has FDA approval.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> VCs are prone to the same sort of investment "analysis" that regular schmoes are. "Do I like the product?" "Do the people I hang out with use it?"

Needless to say, the answers for a breast pump aren't great when you're a 30-45 yr old man who mostly hangs out with other men and, if you're married with children, likely has a wife that didn't need to pump.

</comment><comment><USER11> I'm not sure what this story accomplished. Did it convince us that...

...Male VCs can act like jerks? Yes.

...Male VCs don't get the female market? This shouldn't surprise anyone. It's sad but this is why we need more female VCs.

...That the company is not getting funding because it's women-oriented and run by a woman? Unfortunately no. Because the story didn't prove the company deserved to be funded. It left me with BIG open questions instead.

There wasn't any mention of market data or past sales/momentum data to validate market size and demand. Especially for a company that has burned through $6.5M in 3-4 years.

If your go-to-market strategy is to launch at 3-4x the price of your biggest competitors, you've got to have a value prop that totally invalidates and obliterates price comparisons. Better comfort and "smart" features are nice- to-haves, not can't-live-withouts.

All of this means they have a product with an audience that quickly narrows down:

\- Women

\---In childbearing years

\-----Who are are pregnant, or recently had a child

\</comment><comment>-Who are nursing/planning to nurse

\</comment><comment>---Who are committed to pumping vs supplementing with formula

\</comment><comment>-----Who have enough disposable income to pay a 3-4x premium

\</comment><comment></comment><comment>-Who care about these specific features

Then, as another commenter mentioned, there are other premium pumps coming to market, so they will inevitably be splitting market share.

I'm a woman and I get this product and market (mostly, I have not had children). I hope they succeed, but my guess is this only works if it's a market-entry product that is quickly followed up by a broader line of "smart" products for moms and moms-to-be. To put my money in, I'd first need to be convinced that this is the right market-entry product (and can give you that high-end brand recognition), then I'd need to be convinced you've got other stuff in R&D that will deliver the big profits.

</comment><comment><USER19> > She and her husband, Jeffrey Alvarez, managed to raise $6.5 million from > investors after starting the business together in 2013. But they've recently > hit a wall. With few VCs willing to fund the product, they're turning to > Kickstarter in the hopes of keeping their company running. The campaign, > with an initial goal of $100,000, is expected to start Thursday. "If VCs > don't want this, then we know parents and mothers do," Alvarez said.

1\. This sounds like there's more of an issue of money drying up for hardware products.

2\. This also seems conveniently timed for their KS launch :)

Well played.

</comment><comment><USER20> Some VCs liked it and invested. Others weren't willing to take the risk. Others acted deplorably.

When a Naya pitch meeting turned into a porn-fest, what did the Naya reps do? Did they try to laugh it off and humour the offenders because they wanted the money? Or did they realize that they didn't want to be in business with these people, shutdown and walk out?

If they didn't walk away, they are culpable. They clearly communicated that bad behaviour is tolerable depending on the money.

<comment><USER11> Stop victim shaming. When you're trying to make payroll for people you care about you'll put up with a lot.

It's not so easy to make principled stands when people are depending on you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> My wife recently found this on kickstarter, and spent about 2 hours digging into it, raving about it the whole time. We have two small kids, and finding a suitable breast pump is a source of consistent challenge. Who ever cracks the code -and this firm might - will have a huge market.

Being "non-consensus" and "right" is how the great investor Howard Marks determines opportunity. Seems like this is as non-consensus as it gets...with a huge opportunity.

</comment><comment><USER22> I am the target market for this. We have a Medela and it's doesn't work that well. We can easily afford Naya's $1000 version, but I don't think we'd pay 4x as much. In general, before saying the the situation is because of sexism, racism, etc., check if the other criticisms are valid. In this case, they sound very reasonable to me.

</comment><comment><USER23> Sure the problem is in women founder and not the fact that it costs 4x what an Avent or Medela pump do, even tho there is no much difference between.

> "Manufacturers use hard plastic unlike this pump..."

No they don't, we have an avent pump for $200 and it has very soft suction cups.

</comment><comment><USER24> Please stop pretending there are gender discrimination issues on places there is none... It only takes relevance from real gender discrimination cases.

The title displayed for the article on facebook is even worse "A Smart Breast Pump: Mothers Love It. VCs Don't"

This company is not struggling because evil VCs are not willing to fund companies run by women that offer products for women as the article wants to portray it...

It is struggling because it wants to sell a product that provides 0.3 more efficiency and 0.2 more speed at 4 times the cost of the alternatives!

Not to mention the fact that the company DID get $6.5M on funding! If it is struggling at this point is more likely due to market fitment issues or mismanagement issues.

So, please get real....

The owner is just playing the gender discrimination card to milk (not pun intended) some attention from the media towards the kickstarter campaign....

</comment><comment><USER25> I'll say it. Maybe it's a mediocre product that isn't attracting lots of investments? I think VCs are primarily driven by greed and their ROI values rather than sexism.

</comment><comment><USER26> Right, nobody wants to invest in a company making a $1,000 breast pump because boobs are gross and not because they think this is another Juicero...

<comment><USER27> The impression I got from the article is that the investors never got to the point in the conversation where they found out how much the thing cost. They were put off before any sort of ROI considerations were on the table.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I dislike this line:

> It's hard when you're told you can't be yourself because you have to play > the game

This plays on "don't ask don't tell" themes of not being able to freely express yourself; But this is the norm for the environment, you might not normally wear a suit, or cover your tattoos, but you are often expected to do these things in a business meeting.

<comment><USER29> > During one pitch meeting, Alvarez recalled one guy saying, "I'm not touching > that; that's disgusting." In another meeting, investors Googled the product > and ended up on a porn site. They lingered on the page and started cracking > jokes, she said. "I felt like I was in the middle of a fraternity," Alvarez > said. "I expect more from grown men."

I guess that's fair game at a business meeting though.

<comment><USER28> I highlighted a specific line, not this one, that I had a problem with. The line I did reference refers to the following:

"Only wear black and gray; don't use nail polish; don't smile or laugh too much; and keep your hair back in a pony tail"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Appalling.

Economic doctrine/ideology says that this should create opportunities for someone to swoop in and do a good deal. I think we all know that reality rarely matches theory, especially in economics.

It's possible the business itself has structural problems (cost, channel) — we don't know those details. But these stories are dreadful, and dreadfully common.

</comment><comment><USER31> > She and her husband, Jeffrey Alvarez, managed to raise $6.5 million from > investors after starting the business together in 2013. But they've recently > hit a wall. With few VCs willing to fund the product, they're turning to > Kickstarter in the hopes of keeping their company running. The campaign, > with an initial goal of $100,000, is expected to start Thursday. "If VCs > don't want this, then we know parents and mothers do," Alvarez said.

Is the $100K purely to demonstrate potential demand? Seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the $6.5M they've already received.

> The breast pump market is dominated by Swiss manufacturer Medela LLC, which > got a boost in the U.S. from an Obamacare mandate that insurance companies > must cover the cost of pumps for new moms. Most devices use hard plastic > cups and an air suction system. They're often loud and sometimes painful.

> The Naya's soft suction cup mimics the feel of a baby's mouth and > distributes the suction over a broader area of a woman's breast.

I'm hardly an expert on this but mimicking a baby mouth doesn't mean it's not going to be painful. Soft suction cups seems interesting though it's also something that could be added to a regular pump.

> Alvarez said the Naya delivers 30 percent more breast milk and is 20 percent > faster than alternatives, thanks to a unique water-based system.

Now we're getting to something worthwhile. 20% of 45-120 minutes per day is quite a savings to the right person. I'd imagine it'd be particularly important to women that pump at the office.

> The company is also planning to sell a smart bottle that will be able to > track the volume, calorie count and fat content of breast milk and inputs > them into an app. Mothers would be able to use the software to monitor how > much they're pumping, how much the baby is eating and how much milk is left > in storage.

This is utterly useless. I'm sure some idiots (particularly first time parents) will want these type of tracking features because they think they're important. But sensible people and anyone with more than one child will realize how pointless they are.

> Customers are asked to pay a serious premium for those features. The company > was selling the Naya for $999 until Thursday, when it lowered the price > temporarily to $649. A typical Medela pump is about $250. Naya is now > pitching a lower-end model without a rechargeable battery or certain > accessories for $399, though the price will go up by $100 eventually.

That's an obscene amount of money for a breast pump.

> [... truncated ...] But the couple still couldn't raise money.

Bias deterring funding aside, I don't see how this company succeeds given their pricing and lack of true improvements over the status quo.

</comment><comment><USER32> As much as I agree and have seen first person that VC (and all of finance by the way) is an old-boy male dominated world, this story smells like it's spinning the yarn that it's not Icarus.

 _She and her husband, Jeffrey Alvarez, managed to raise $6.5 million from investors after starting the business together in 2013...Precursor Ventures, said he decided to make a seed investment in Naya_

Oh ok, so VC's do like it [1][2]. Despite what you hear it's a tiny subsection of startups that ever raise any money. Even harder for hardware startups.

 _The company was selling the Naya for $999 until Thursday, when it lowered the price temporarily to $649. A typical Medela pump is about $250...There's a dedicated fan base among mothers who can afford it_

Ah, got it. Their product is too expensive for too small of a market.

 _Today, Naya Health opened up the possibility for customers to register to buy one at least — no deposit required_

Wait, they don't even have sales yet? If you go to the site you can buy one...

Look, the VC's that were acting like teenagers are slimeballs and anyone, regardless of your gender, race whatever has run into slimeball investors. I'm male and I've been sexually harassed or had a casually racist comment lobbed past me more times than I can count by a potential investor. It sucks.

It is not however why it's proving hard to close a massively risky, and I assume hugely expensive A round. This looks like submarine PR wrapped in an outrage sandwich.

[1][https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/naia- health/investor...](https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/naia- health/investors)

[2][https://techcrunch.com/2016/04/25/naya-health- raises-3-9-mil...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/04/25/naya-health- raises-3-9-million-to-build-a-better-breast-pump/)

<comment><USER33> You don't know the market, you don't know the product, and you're making a lot of assumptions.

EDIT: Knowing HN's audience, I expected the downvotes. What I don't get is why my comments are being flagged. Please stop abusing HN's tools to silence dissenting opinions.

<comment><USER34> That's not a fair description of HN's audience. The community is divided on divisive issues, just like any sufficiently large population sample would be. It only seems to be stacked against your view because provocative comments stand out more. We can point to countless generalizations about HN's audience that characterize it just the opposite way, and for the same reason.

Edit: as one illustrative example, the top two comments on this submission are currently both by women substantively critiquing the article, one of whom happens to be using a breast pump these days (and has amazingly detailed things to say about it, very much in the spirit of this site). Surprising? Not really. HN is just more diverse than many people say it is.

(I imagine users flagged your comment because it failed to be civil and substantive as the site guidelines ask.)

<comment><USER33> HN's audience has demonstrated itself to be insensitive to women's issues in the past, and is reasonably techbro-heavy. That's why I said I expected the downvotes. It may be a large population, but it's not a particularly diverse one.

And it wasn't just this comment that was flagged. It was my other one ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305765](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305765)), which lays out the substantive reasons why I disagreed with the parent comment. Though that one was subsequently unflagged (and then upvoted).

<comment><USER34> > _HN 's audience has demonstrated itself_

I can't agree with that. These perceptions are notoriously in the eye of the beholder.

Let me put it this way: HN "demonstrates" a lot of things—that's how user- generated content works. People pick the ones that stand out to them and call that "HN", but they could just as easily have picked the opposite ones, and indeed many others do.

> _it 's not a particularly diverse one_

That's particularly off; it's hugely diverse (or at least divided), which is why the generalizations people make about it are contradictorily all over the place. At some point I need to put together a big list to illustrate this. I sometimes feel like I'm the only person who sees it, since it's my job to look at this stuff all day.

> _And it wasn 't just this comment that was flagged. It was my other one_

It's easy to understand why it was flagged: conducting disagreement via "Bullshit", "Cry me a river", etc. breaks the site guidelines. Changing the subject slightly, I sometimes wonder whether this bullying, pugnacious approach to online commenting doesn't contribute to the very exclusionary dynamic that people on your side of the argument deplore. I deplore it too, and can't help but notice how comments on both sides can be equally bro-ey, douchey, and wincey. It makes HN less welcoming all around. Many people seem to think they get a pass for being right (one doesn't, of course), and then use that to vent what feel more like personal fumes.

In case it helps, I don't disagree with your underlying views (though mostly I don't read comments closely for that—it's too hard, and there are too many). Perhaps you noticed that I replied no less critically to the person you were objecting to, who broke the site guidelines as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> "Others said they were too grossed out to touch her product"

What the hell? These were grown men?

<comment><USER36> As a woman VC should I not be allowed to be grossed out without you questioning my gender?

<comment><USER35> No adult should get grossed out at a breast pump. Certainly no adult in such a position of responsibility that they're considering funding such a product. I am assuming the investors in question were men, but that's really not all that important to the point I'm making.

<comment><USER36> Yup - I totally agree with your point.

It has been entertaining watching the points on my comment slide up and down between positive and negative territory. As you can imagine, "men" and "women" are heavy descriptors. Heck, I can imagine someone taking issue with "grown".

<comment><USER35> Yeah, it's fun and weird to watch what gets downvoted.

I wanted to make my comment gender-neutral, but I couldn't come up with a phrase with the same nice sound as "grown men," and sounding good won out. The perils of internet comments....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Emily Chang is trying so hard to make this about the male dominated VCs for the founder's short comings instead of the apt criticism of the team and execution. Really, Emily Chang of Bloomberg West/Technology? She could have at least offered another perspective to the article, while still being able to connect the dots about the scrutiny that Silicon Valley faces.

A husband and wife co-founder duo, a literal mom and pop with 3 children, trying to scale up their hardware production business which hasn't proven itself after 6.5m in capital. Yeah there are a lot of valid criticisms that would be made to any team, and a couple unique to that team.

Making it just about the mom's experience with "male dominated VCs" is disingenuous. I'm not going to be an apologist for off-comments made by VCs, I do know that you can make a conclusion on business plans in like 30 seconds to 5 minutes, and then you have to spend the rest of the hour in small talk.

There is also the recurring trope of being included in a VCs portfolio becoming validation. If you are able to self fund an idea, you can make more money than you would with the VCs, in many scenarios. Yes everyone wants the publicity, but VC business models simply don't work with MOST business models. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of your business.

So maybe, good luck with the kickstarter.</comment>


Cinemark announces $8.99/mo. subscription to fill more seats, take on MoviePass - <AUTHOR> http://beta.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-fi-ct-cinemark-movie-club-20171205-story.html <comment><USER2> Seems like this is the direction the industry is going, however the actual service here is much worse than MoviePass' (seemingly unsustainable) model. MoviePass is $9.95 for one movie per day.

FTA:

>...customers who pay a monthly fee of $8.99 will receive a credit for one movie ticket a month. Subscribers can also buy additional tickets for $8.99 each and get a 20% discount on food and drinks.

<comment><USER3> That doesn't sound like a subscription. That sounds like you're paying $8.99 for a ticket once a month. Why wouldn't you just buy an $8.99 ticket as- needed?

<comment><USER4> Can you get a $8.99 ticket without a subscription?

These models (subscribe and get 1/month free) are not that uncommon - e.g. Audible. Usually you get a cheaper price, since you're more likely to keep paying and are therefore more profitable overall. Here even more, due to potential spending on concessions.

<comment><USER5> Heck, if I go on Bargain Tuesday it's $5.75 and you get a free popcorn with each ticket. It's a really nice theatre too. Regular price is $9.50, but that's still not much more.

<comment><USER6> In Australia, US$5.75 would only get you the popcorn. Until a recent price war, movie tickets for adults have been approaching AU$20.

<comment><USER7> Heh, quick googling tells me that it's less than 400$ to go to Kuala Lumpur. If I were so inclined, I'd go once a year, get pirated DVDs of all the movies I want, have some awesome food and come back.

<comment><USER8> While you're in Kuala Lumpur, seeing movies in the theater is also quite reasonable. When I was there last year it was anywhere between RM9.50 and RM22 (~RM4 = 1 USD) depending on theater options. Some of the movies were even released there prior to the US release.

I'd stopped going to theaters in the US since I don't think most movies are worth the US price, but I rediscovered how enjoyable it can be...the theaters were all very modern and comfortable and for some bizarre reason, Malaysians like to sit all the way in the back and to the sides. I'd have ticket takers look at me incredulously when I chose seats that would be considered perfect in the US (dead center, just far enough back to not have to crane my neck).

Totally agree on the food too...I miss roti telur!

<comment><USER7> Yes many movies are released internationally before they are in the US. When I lived in India I got to see most major releases before the US release. I assume Malaysia is a pretty similar market.

Ha, all the way back and to the sides are my favorite type of movie neighbors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> So for $8.99/mo I can go to one movie a month (which is a little higher than matinee pricing around here), but only at Cinemark. Option 2 is spend $1/mo more with MoviePass but I can go to a movie every day, and I can use it at my local independent theater. Kind of a no-brainer here...

<comment><USER10> Yeah but I'll be extremely surprised if MoviePass is still in business with the same model in a couple years.

<comment><USER11> Although...you can say that about Cinemark or theaters as a whole right now. AMC Theater stock prices have plunged in the last year. Culture shifts have killed theaters before in the US like with drive-in theaters which were decimated by such a shift.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Cinemark is not in competition with MoviePass. If someone uses a MoviePass, Cinemark makes money because MoviePass bought a ticket. The reason Cinemark is losing money is because they have a bad product. They show terrible Hollywood films, have terrible seats, and terrible food. I still go to the theater, but when I do, I go to theaters like Alamo Draft House (Austin), Hollywood Theater (Portland), Manor Theater (Pittsburgh), Broadway Theater (Salt Lake City).

<comment><USER13> My local Cinemark recently remodeled all the rooms to have fantastic reclining seats and reserved seating. In my experience, the trendy or upscale theaters like Alamo Draft House have far worse seats and screens. If I want $10 craft beers I can buy those at a store and drink them at home. The only reason I'm going to a cinema is to have the best possible comfort, picture, and audio.

<comment><USER12> Have you been to the Hollywood Theater in Portland? They have a 70mm film projector something no Cinemark has. You can see movies like Dunkirk in the format the director intended.

<comment><USER13> There's certainly an appeal to specific formats like 70mm, but that comes along fairly rarely. I haven't been to Portland, but I have seen 70mm films in classic theaters. They're rarely comfortable, the sound usually sucks, and the lack of stadium seating can be brutal, but you're there for the insane effort that went into end-to-end 70mm production.

Of course, I saw Dunkirk in IMAX 70mm projection at the Metreon in San Francisco, which is a state of the art screening room, but that will probably only ever happen every few years. Sadly the Metreon recently remodeled with completely terrible seats (only in the IMAX room), so I'm rarely tempted to go there.

<comment><USER14> Seats in the IMAX room is indeed very bad. It's sad because the screen is 2nd largest in North America. But your only memory of the movie becomes how much pain your back and behind are. Try the shoreline cinemark in MV, very comfy seats!

<comment><USER13> The Metreon IMAX is such a shame. They installed that incredible new digital projector (Dolby laser, I believe) but at the same time ruined the seats.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It seems as though the cinema is finally entering a secular contraction. Home video hardware is getting cheaper and higher quality. Content going straight to netflix/hbo/hulu is getting better. And sitting in front of a movie sucking down 32oz of sugar water and fat soaked popcorn doesn't sound quite so appealing these days.

I'll see the new Star Wars, no doubt about that, but besides that I can't remember a time in my life when I went to the movies less than I do now. For the same price, I can get a nice meal out and watch a movie at home.

<comment><USER16> Value proposition on theaters is very low.

The popcorn isn't even good. I want butter and salt evenly distributed throughout the entire bucket, not a disgustingly over seasoning top inch, and a bland inedible bottom 90%.

The cheapest matinee is a Tuesday 5.75 about 20m from me. It's just not worth it at all. Serialized dramas that I binge watch are killing movies. Attention economy continues to forces changes in old media.

<comment><USER17> I ask them to fill it up halfway, then I add "butter," return to the counter to have it filled the rest of the way, and return for a second "butter" round to ensure even coverage.

<comment><USER18> Not everyone has self-service butter.

<comment><USER19> Or just ask the person filling it up to do it for you.

<comment><USER20> Yup. Fill with corn halfway, butter, then shake the bag. Fill to the top and butter again. Don't butter with less than half the bag filled or you will soak the bottom and get soggy corn. If the theatre won't do this, go to an independent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> > The Plano, Texas-based company on Tuesday said customers who pay a monthly > fee of $8.99 will receive a credit for one movie ticket a month.

> It's also the cinema industry's first direct answer to MoviePass, a New York > start-up that offers unlimited movies in theaters for $9.95 a month.

How do they expect this to be successful when the average customer should be able to understand 1/day > 1/month?

<comment><USER22> Because one per day is completely unsustainable and they only need to last longer than MoviePass burns VC money and fails?

<comment><USER23> It's only unsustainable because of the current royalty structure. Most of the money actual theaters make is on concessions and I'm more likely to buy concessions when I'm not paying $15 per person for a single movie ticket.

<comment><USER24> i have always heard that movies make most of their profit from concessions. if that is the case, i'm not at all surprised they're failing. i've always brought my own snacks because they're cheaper and/or tastier, and i rarely get given shit for it. the minute they make me feel uncomfortable about it, i stop patronizing that theatre.

<comment><USER25> Concession prices are why I stopped going to the movies. Unless I eat right before hand, I'm going to want a snack during the movie, but I'm not going to pay $15 for a Coke and some popcorn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> How does this take on Moviepass? MoviePass lets you watch 1 movie per day, whereas this is 1 movie per month with a very modest discount on concessions.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, now the concessions will only have 240% markup. Wooo.

<comment><USER28> Concessions are how most theaters make any money. What do you suggest instead?

<comment><USER29> Considering this as fact (that concessions make the money), I would think a theatre would do everything in it's power to make purchasing and consuming concessions the most pleasant aspect of movie going that they possibly could.

Having to juggle sodas, popcorn, napkins, etc., is always an adventure in the negative sense when I go to the movies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I'm confused why Movie Theatres don't actively promote MoviePass to their customers.

Isn't MoviePass paying full ticket value to the theatres? They should be offering people discounts to show their movie pass cards on concessions, and otherwise get people showing up for free subsidized movies while they can.

Am I missing something?

<comment><USER31> Their concern is the long term consequence, not the short term benefit.

> and otherwise get people showing up for free subsidized movies while they > can. The issue comes in when the "free subsidized movies" ends, but > consumers are left with the expectation that the economics of movie sales > can support that model. If MoviePass's business model turns out to be > unsustainable and shuts down, all of the consumers that have gotten used to > it will suddenly baulk at paying retail rates again. Rates that, while > discussed as expensive, were accepted as the status quo prior to MoviePass.

The alternative also isn't pleasant for the theater: The economics of MoviePass work out, but now MoviePass has the relationship with the consumer. As it gets more popular, MoviePass gets more market power to dictate discounted rates with your theater, with the implicit threat of blacklisting your theater from MoviePass locations if you don't play ball. While in theory that doesn't hurt the theater, since such a high percentage of box office revenue goes to distributors rather than to the theater, distributors won't take that squeeze either. They'll either shift back to fixed-cost film distribution (which theaters don't like, because it's risky) or start adding in more and more onerous minimum guarantees to contracts to make up the absolute dollar difference. i.e. if your distributor gets 95% of box office revenue, slashing ticket prices from $10 to $5 only costs you $0.25 in revenue but it costs them $4.75. While you can make up your very minimal lost revenue from concessions easily, they can't. They're not going to eat that quietly, no matter how much additional volume you generate.

<comment><USER30> I'm not so sure this is always the case.

If MP tanks, I prob go back to my baseline of maybe 4 movies a year, but it's possible I'd be used to seeing more movies to I'd go more often. I probably wouldn't end up going less than my previous MP viewing.

Movies theatres want the popcorn / soda sales so it doesn't matter much how MP negotiates the price, since they don't get much of that anyway.

<comment><USER31> > so it doesn't matter much how MP negotiates the price, since they don't get > much of that anyway

But it does matter. Because there's always the potential for the theater to go from barely getting any ticket revenue to _actively losing money for every ticket sold_. Concession sales then start subsidizing box office revenue to pay distributors, eating away at your one profit center.

Take two scenarios for how distributors, the ones that take most of the ticket revenue, make money:

Scenario A, the status quo: 1000 tickets a day x $10/each x 95% of ticket revenue = $9,500/day going to the distributor

Scenario B, assuming MP is a raging success, has captured the majority of the movie-going market, and is able to muscle the theater to give it a 50% discount on ticket rates: (200 non-MP tickets x $10/each + 800 tickets x $5/each) * 95% of ticket revenue = $5,700/day in revenue going to the distributor

Even though the distributor still keeps the majority of box office revenue by percentage, that's a substantial discount to what they're used to and they're not going to just let the theater pass that loss off to them completely. So now, instead of just 95% of box office sales, they want 95% with a minimum guarantee, or want concession added into the percentage distribution, which could work out to paying substantially out of concession profit if your ticket sales don't hit that minimum (basically moving the risk back onto the theater, which is exactly what theaters so enthusiastically tried to avoid by moving from fixed-fee distribution to percentage-based distribution).

While MP would also theoretically increase foot traffic to the theater, and thereby making up the loss in revenue per ticket by a higher quantity of lower revenue tickets being sold, there's only so much unused capacity during peak time already that there's a physical limit to how much additional volume an existing theater can absorb. If MP increased viewership during off-peak times when the theater's are mostly empty (like midday, midweek showings), _then_ it might be beneficial to both the distributor and theater owner. But otherwise, one of those parties tends to come out of it worse than before MP.

<comment><USER30> I appreciate the detail and depth here.

My intuition is still that the correct move is to enjoy the revenue opportunity.

Granted, that is based on a "MoviePass won't last" assumption.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> MoviePass is a data play, right? After signing up recently, I read their terms of service and it seems like they exist in order to build customer profiles and harvest data:

[https://www.moviepass.com/content/terms](https://www.moviepass.com/content/terms) See "18\. Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information"

It's not that I object to this particular instance of this practice. I, for one, am willing to trade my movie-going data for cheap movie tickets. However, I am genuinely confused about how they intend to keep it going.

<comment><USER33> What data is MoviePass able to collect that Fandango doesn't have access to?

<comment><USER32> Since they've offer such a great deal, you'll probably use their service for every movie that you can.

With fandango, you have to make a conscious decision to use them as an intermediary every time.

It's reasonable to expect that MoviePass will, over time, have a more comprehensive (less sparse) record of movies you've gone to theaters to see.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> The more I think about MoviePass the less I like the model. In [http://www.businessinsider.com/moviepass-business- model-2017...](http://www.businessinsider.com/moviepass-business-model-2017-8) they say they're trying to offset high ticket prices in some places with lower ticket prices in other places. What kind of business model tries to shift money from places that have less to places that have more?

Edit: had the last part backwards, d'oh

<comment><USER35> I think their ideas about a business model are hogwash.

Even in places where the movies are $6/month, they would need huge numbers of people to sign up, and use the service 0-1 times per month, month after month..

That doesn't seem realistic. Even with their new contract model, I don't see this working.

I don't see how they could possibly survive without inventing a new revenue model.

In the meantime, I'll keep enjoying my VC subsidized movies :)

<comment><USER36> Isnt this the "communism" they are talking about all the time? Rich paying for the poor?

<comment><USER34> Don't you have that backwards? They require people with lower ticket prices to pay the same amount as people with higher ticket prices. So the "poor" (or people the movie theaters think won't pay more money, anyway) are paying for the "rich".

<comment><USER36> Oh yeah thats right but I was talking about VCs subsidizing our movies, taxi rodes, food. Its kind of nice.

<comment><USER37> Hehe, yes. At least before they gather up all our personal data, secret habits and sell them to the highest bidder.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Still waiting for the ability to purchase a new movie from home. Can't think of a single reason why it hasn't happened yet. Charge $50 if you want, people would pay it. And it would probably actually recreate that water-cooler conversations that don't really happen all that often any more.

<comment><USER39> >Can't think of a single reason why it hasn't happened yet.

Piracy.

Any home version of a movie would be ripped and put on warez in hours after release in 4k. I'd never go to the theater again. But CAMs and TS suck.

<comment><USER38> Solid point. I'm really surprised this doesn't already happen.

You could argue that this hasn't hurt on-demand services like iTunes and Amazon Video, where people could torrent the videos instead of buying/renting them. With piracy you're always going to lose some small number of customers, but if you make renting them legally easy, people will pay.

<comment><USER39> They probably balance the cost of piracy vs. the additional sales.

Sure VoD, streaming, and DVD/BR allows piracy, but it also creates many more sales.

People are already paying $10-15 per person to see a movie in the theater. I'm sure some consultant concluded the new sales from pre-release home rentals won't cancel out lost ticket sales and piracy.

They also have to worry about theaters, which are a key part of their busines model but aren't under studio control. If 50% of customers stop going to the movies because they rent at home, that might make theater unviable or make the theatres demand larger cuts of profits.

And I also imagine they are worried about brand dilution. Movies and TV have never been more similar. TV might even have better overall quality now. But movies can charge 12 bucks for 2 hours and TV is having a hard time charging 12 bucks for unlimited everything.

If Avengers 4 is available on your local TV, is it still a movie? Will people still want to pay 50 bucks to stream it? Or are they going to want to pay 3.99?

<comment><USER38> The more I think about it, I really doubt that piracy plays much into it because, like I said, that already happens with post-theater movies. You can offset the piracy damage by increasing the ticket price or by selling more tickets.

I would imagine that you could do _both_. Having to go to a theater is a real blocker. These stats from 2014 said on average 3.7 tickets were sold per person, per year. [https://www.mpaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MPAA- Theatri...](https://www.mpaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MPAA-Theatrical- Market-Statistics-2014.pdf) That means on any given weekend there's less than a 10% chance that someone will go to the theater. I would imagine having movies available at home would at least double that number.

And since presumably people will watch these movies socially you could charge much more for them; $50 or $60 per movie doesn't sound unreasonable at all, that's assuming between 4-5 people are watching it together. I wouldn't be surprised if it could go even higher.

Consider going to the theater where you're probably going to buy some food before (either at a restaurant or concessions, or both), with only 2 people you are coming close to, or exceeding, that $60 figure anyways.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I forget which theater chain it was, but I had one of these subscriptions when I was in London alone, semi-broke and super bored for an entire summer back in 2007.

I must have seen every damned movie that came out over a three month period. It was awesome.

</comment><comment><USER41> This is useless if the quality of movies coming out remains the same. I usually only make it out to see a movie every 3-4 months. It's hard to find something worth a 2-3 hours of my time.

<comment><USER42> It's also useless because no matter what the theater does, nothing beats the experience of being at home.

It's not like a restaurant. A different atmosphere is a plus with restaurants. Not with theaters: you stare at a screen with the lights off the whole time. Also, with a restaurant you are served food without doing any work. Sure, watching a movie in the theater requires no work, but it's also trivial to play a movie at home.

<comment><USER43> IMO this is very dependant on the theatre.

The ones here have fancy seating, better sound, 3D, etc. For many movies, it's very much a better experience. If you're watching the bog-standard 2D version of the latest comedy film? Yeah, sure, home is better. Latest action/superhero movie? Unless I spend thousands to put together a home theatre, the added bits at the theatre just make it much better.

Mind you, from the descriptions I've heard of other theatres, I'm mildly amazed by how nice the ones around here are - especially since Cineplex more or less has a monopoly. I suspect they're just gouging us on ticket prices (and snacks, though if you do it right it's not too bad). Still, its nice to go on occasion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Save 20% on a $10 soda!

</comment><comment><USER45> Awesome. $9 a month to see the crap they shovel into the theaters.

And now that they get paid regardless of whether I go or not I fully expect the crap to get even worse.

</comment><comment><USER46> Reminder about Cinemark: \- they sued Aurora victims for legal costs \- their founder is a donor to Roy Moore's campaign

<comment><USER47> Because the winning side in a civil lawsuit is allowed to recover its legal costs from the losing side. If the victims wouldn't have brought their insane suit first, Cinemark wouldn't have had costs to recover.

If you bite off more than you can chew don't blame anyone but yourself when you choke.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> This seems like a dark marketing pattern:

Pay $7.50 normally or experience the deluxe super duper savers package for $8.99! WOOOO!!!

</comment><comment><USER49> Hmmm... $8.99/mo childcare. Tempting.

<comment><USER50> Yeah once a month for an hour and a half.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> It has been out for like 3 minutes and the price has already gone from $6.95/month to $8.99/month to $9.95/month.</comment>


Ask HN: Will You Upgrade to iOS 14? - <AUTHOR> With new OS versions slowing the phones down. Is it okay to upgrade iPhone X to iOS 14?<p>Anyone who has done it please share your experience of the upgrade. <comment><USER2> Yes. But only on my iPad I use sparingly. My phone will get it at version .1 or .2

</comment><comment><USER3> Its faster imo

<comment><AUTHOR> Didnt expect that. Which model?</comment></comment>


Total sleep deprivation impairs attention and higher-order cognitive processes - <AUTHOR> https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-70149-001?doi=1 <comment><USER2> And causes hallucinations!

Will post my story here in the near future, but let's just say a good man was doing my taxes at 3am. It was okay at first, because he was a hard worker. Suddenly I realized it was 3am, and told him to rush it. He complied, hunched his back and buried his nose in all the documents. I looked down at my legs and saw that I was wearing my boxers only, I told him to hurry it up because I gotta go to bed. I could hear him mumbling a response and hunching his shoulders some more to work faster. I felt bad for putting all this pressure on him. I got closer and put a hand on his shoulder, only to find that he had fallen asleep. I looked around and saw that his desk was a crib, and that this man was my premii 2 months old son.

I'm a father of twins.

<comment><USER3> I learned here on HN that Eskimos don't have access to a lot of drugs or alcohol, so they used to just starve themselves in order to get to this hallucinogenic state!

People really have a deep seeded desire to alter their consciousness.

<comment><USER4> That sounds interesting. Do you remember the comment/post?

<comment><USER3> You know, I searched for it but I just can't find it. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the source.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As someone with serious sleeping problems (at least once a week I miss a night of sleep) and bad sleeping habits overall, I've definitely noticed my attention span and ability to think clearly taking a serious nosedive over the last couple years. Who would have thought, sleep is super important.

<comment><USER6> Go on Amazon and get yourself one of those acupressure mats. Worst case, you will lose like $25, but I can attest to its effectiveness as one of the early users (and I have recommended it to friends ever since). Cheapest thing ever that can change your life.

I have trouble falling asleep, mind racing, all that jazz. I have to be EXHAUSTED to fall asleep. This thing is a miracle. After 15-20 minutes, you start drifting off, then wake up on it about an hour later, toss it to the side, and immediately fall back asleep, super-drowsy. And in the morning you feel like you had slept 36 hours straight.

<comment> Joe-Z I'm so excited right now! I have the same issue as you with falling asleep. Is this what you're talking about?:

[https://amzn.to/2qZ372D](https://amzn.to/2qZ372D)

I hope posting a link to amazon doesn't violate any site guidelines, but man, if this really helps I'm going to order it right away.

<comment><USER6> Yeah - that type. I wasn't a fan of the neck pillow when I tried it, but your mileage may vary. I flip mine landscape mode so that I get good back shoulder coverage, by the way.

<comment> Joe-Z Thanks for the tip, going to order one now. Have a nice weekend!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Related: Parents of young children found to be completely dead inside

<comment><USER8> Oh man...I can totally relate to it.. I have a 2 year kid and last 2 years have been most difficult for me and my wife's life given that I need to take of the startup as well

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I had this job that thought you were stealing from them if you got more than 90 minutes sleep a night they would literally call the engineers 7 days a week at 3am to make sure we were not "slipping up" by getting sleep worst job of my life absolutely illegal labor practice as well imagine having to work 140 hours to keep getting paid for 40.

<comment><USER10> Unless this job was a study on sleep deprivation, how could they possibly believe they had the right to do this?

<comment><USER11> Oncall duties?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I see some people consider this article to be a trivial commonplace but in some environments sleep is considered a waste of time. For example when I was at MIT I think everybody pulled a couple of all-nighters per week. There was a culture of how to manage it, not one of how to make that unnecessary.

<comment><USER13> The same is true in the medical profession. Sleep deprivation is absolutely the norm for young doctors and surgeons in residence, which should be a scary thing given how often people's lives are quite literally in their hands.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Ref: PDF of study [https://msu.edu/~ema/StepanAltmannFennJEPG.pdf](https://msu.edu/~ema/StepanAltmannFennJEPG.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER15> Day before yesterday a bus crashed in Argentina, two kids died as consequence of the crash.

Earlier this month the organism that regulates public transportation allowed companies to send just one driver on long distance trips, forcing that person to stay awake during the whole journey.

<comment><USER16> I don't think we should dehumanize people just because they are on the other site of the debate. To address the point, there are good reasons for deprioritising safety given the economic climate.

<comment><USER17> What are the good reasons?

<comment><USER16> Argentina's economy is going down the drain atm. Labor cost is a big factor in transportation so keeping two drivers might be making the things too expensive. Independent of this, buses are safer than cars, so safety wise the argument could be made if it gets people out of the car it's worth it. I don't think I've ever had two drivers for long distance buses in Europe. I don't think we're very unsafe.

<comment><USER18> I am not sure where in Europe you've experienced _long_ distance buses but heavy vehicles have a tacho by law in any EU country.

All drivers have to prove they rested x hours if they have done y kilometers. Any company violating this will be charged.

Also consider that Argentina North to South is well over 3000km which would be equivalent to a trip between Estonia and Greece.

<comment><USER16> The thing about the tacho is true. On my trip from NL to Austria all of us had to get out so the driver could take rest at some point. This particular regulation doesn't force bus companies to just double the labor cost, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Yawning induces sleep! I forcefully and repeatedly yawn for 10 minutes to rid of insomnia. Really works

</comment><comment><USER20> I know this book gets posted anytime something sleep related comes up... but I still find it underrated.

'Why We Sleep'[0] has changed my sleeping habits for the better and I wish everyone had the chance to read it. It's like a manual explaining how your body works 1/3 of the time you're alive.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking- Dreams/dp/1501...](https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking- Dreams/dp/1501144316)

<comment><USER21> ""Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific and Factual Errors" [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850)

<comment><USER22> Thanks for the link. I love the book and have recommended to many friends, but also felt the lack of scientific sources somewhat disappointing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Physicians, keep this mind. Don't let your hospital health system overlords do this to you.

</comment><comment><USER24> Can someone define total sleep deprivation (TSD) in the context of this article? I'm assuming it's going one night with no sleep at all, but is that correct?

</comment><comment><USER25> I'm about to publish a groundbreaking study which also demonstrates that eating five double quarter pounders with cheese and fries a day will lead to obesity.

</comment><comment><USER26> Sleep-dep is a standard consciousness-alteration technique in the monastic/mystic scene. Along with fasting and meditation.

</comment><comment><USER27> filed under no shit

</comment><comment><USER28> Yesterday was all about getting enough light during the day, today is about getting good sleep at night. Hopefully we'll also hear about eating healthy, getting some exercise, and the importance of healthy friendships.

<comment><USER29> Looking forward to the posts on how Financial stability is conducive to a low stress environment overall improving the mental and physical health of all affected.

<comment><USER30> Don't forget how well financial stability correlates with monetary well-being!</comment></comment></comment>


Vim Anywhere - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/cknadler/vim-anywhere <comment><USER2> I have an Automator workflow script, which uses emacsclient to edit any text, in my `~/Library/Services`. The service receives selected text in any application and output replaces the selected text. It consists of two parts: Run AppleScript, and Run Shell Script.

The AppleScript part is:

        on run {input, parameters}
        	tell application "EmacsMac" to activate
        	tell application "System Events"
        		repeat until visible of process "Emacs" is true
        			delay 0.5
        		end repeat
        	end tell
        	return input
        end run

and the Shell Script part (pass input to stdin) is:

        tmp=$(mktemp "$HOME/tmp/EditTextinEmacsXXXXXXXX")
        ec=/Applications/MacPorts/EmacsMac.app/Contents/MacOS/bin/emacsclient
        cat > "$tmp"
        until [ $($ec -q -e '(server-running-p)' 2>/dev/null) == t ]; do
          sleep 1
        done
        $ec -q -c "$tmp"
        rv="$?"
        cat "$tmp"
        if [ $rv -ne 0 ]; then
          echo "Something went wrong.  Please find your text in"
          echo "$tmp"
        else
          rm "$tmp"
        fi

Getting it to work with any editor should be straightforward.

<comment><USER3> Wow, this is awesome!

Is there any way to make it work without selecting text? (default to all available text on the textarea)

BTW, I changed a few things: emacsclient path and the tmp folder:

      tmp=$(mktemp "/tmp/EditTextinEmacsXXXXXXXX")
      ec=/usr/local/bin/emacsclient
      cat > "$tmp"
      until [ $($ec -q -e '(server-running-p)' 2>/dev/null) == t ]; do
        sleep 1
      done
      $ec -q -c "$tmp"
      rv="$?"
      cat "$tmp"
      if [ $rv -ne 0 ]; then
        echo "Something went wrong.  Please find your text in"
        echo "$tmp"
      else
        rm "$tmp"
      fi

<comment><USER4> Hmm... I'm not very familiar with this, but couldn't you send a key command to select the entire text (CMD A)?

<comment><USER3> I'm not very familiar either. But the Automator workflow starts with "receives selected text", so I'm not sure it has access to the current text field

<comment><USER4> Did not know that. I've used HammerSpoon on Mac, and you can send key shortcuts with that... you could probably glue them together easily

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe I'm just not _getting it_ and am too old for this, but why would I ever want to have my computer open a completely different program simply to input text into a text box when it already has focus and I can simply type at that point?

I understand using vim for development, or editing files while already at a command prompt; I just don't see the point in this use case other than to feel clever.

I am willing to be enlightened if I'm missing something.

<comment><USER6> I don't know if it's as applicable for a vim user, but as an emacs user I really appreciate having access to the same tools I use to edit all of my other text: the same search, the same dictionary, the same completion engine, the same Org-mode keybindings (so that I can save myself a note or TODO as I'm in the middle of writing), the same … everything.

Honestly, every programme other than emacs is a distraction.

<comment><USER7> I'm a Vim user but this exactly nails the point. I mostly use the terminal for everything I can because I know the shortcuts and they're consistent across operating systems.

For all its faults, readline is a godsend for Vi users.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's not vim, but many terminal-based keyboard shortcuts are already available across OS X without installing anything. For example:

        - ctrl+p - move cursor up one line
        - ctrl+n - move cursor down one line
        - ctrl+f - move cursor forward one character
        - ctrl+b - move cursor back one character

        - ctrl+a - move cursor to beginning of line
        - ctrl+e - move cursor to end of line
        - ctrl+k - delete all characters from cursor to end of line

There are a few missing useful ones (such as move by word), but you can fill them in by creating this file[1] in a specific place on your machine.

[1] [https://gist.github.com/gilbert/10fdd692799fc7269b50abbcfb2e...](https://gist.github.com/gilbert/10fdd692799fc7269b50abbcfb2ea410)

<comment><USER9> These are Emacs shortcuts, not Vim. They're available in bash (the default MacOS shell) because bash uses the readline library. You can also put readline into Vi mode and use Vi/Vim shortcuts, but none of this has anything to do with editing files.

<comment><USER10> fish shell has a vim mode for anyone interested

<comment><USER11> Bash and zsh also have vim mode. The bash mode is more like vi though.

<comment><USER12> Indeed, it's in fact called "vi mode" in the bash/readline docs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Ok, but you can do this with a simple shell script without the reliance on Gnome/GTK:

      #!/bin/bash
      dir="/tmp/vim-anywhere/"
      fn="$(date -Iseconds)"
      [ ! -d $dir ] && mkdir $dir
      vim $dir$fn && cat $dir$fn | xsel -b -i

Then you just need to bind the script to a key inside your window manager.

Bonus: This works anywhere xorg is available.

<comment><USER14> I use something like this but I initialize the file with the contents of the clipboard. I use xclip but I think xsel can do the same. Here's a snippet:

        xclip -o > "$tmpfile"    # initialize file with clipboard contents
        gvim --nofork "$tmpfile"
        xclip -i "$tmpfile"      # push file to clipboard

Bind it to a global hotkey and you can use it from anywhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Relevant self-plug: I co-wrote an extension that does this between browsers and several text editors, it's called GhostText

[https://github.com/GhostText/GhostText](https://github.com/GhostText/GhostText)

<comment><USER16> It's fantastic! I use this every day and it works great. Thanks for the effort you put into it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I love the idea! I often open up vim to edit some stuff, save it in a temp file, then copy it. I never realised I needed a more streamlined version but after seeing this it hit me like a brick.

I don't think I need that much scaffolding, though. I just knocked this together:

        #!/bin/bash
        vim /tmp/everyvim && cat /tmp/everyvim | xclip -sel clip -i

</comment><comment><USER18> No Windows version, where I need it.

If you are used to Vim then regular editors are dangerous, you find things like '=aB' or 'jjjjj' or 'ZZ' or ':w!' embedded in one's files, breaking everythng.

On Windows you can't just copy and paste from something edited in a terminal, or copy paste to a terminal to do your editing/saving as there is no 'vi'.

I note this software could be upgraded to work with Windows now there is that Ubuntu subsystem in there somewhere. Perhaps a better way would be to modify the accessibility tools - StickyKeys etc. - to have vim be the universal text entry arrangement even for things like username text boxes, you ':wn' to get to the password field and then type 'i' to start entering a password. Much easier.

<comment><USER19> There are vim builds for Windows, both graphical and terminal. You don't need to use the linux subsystem for that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Meanwhile, the Escape key on popular keyboards is getting smaller and smaller :(

<comment><USER21> You can rebind caps lock to escape.

<comment><USER22> or rebind it to ctrl if held, escape if tapped, making it even better for RSI purposes

<comment><USER23> What do you use to do this? On what operating systems?

<comment><USER24> If you are on Linux, try xcape; on Windows, you can do it with autohotkey.

<comment><USER25> Remapping CapsLock to Ctrl on Windows is easy with KeyTweak (what I have is 2.3.0 by Travis Krumsick), though I had to select the CapsLock key from the displayed keyboard rather than simply hitting the key. All it appears to be doing is updating the Registry's key mapping values based on the keyboard scan codes. Easily found with a simple search, and it does work on Windows 10 even though it hasn't been updated for 8+ years.

I suspect you'd have to switch to something like Autohotkey for the Esc/Ctrl mapping.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Very cool. I am using it now to write this comment!

exit

quit

exit()

ctrlC

ctrlx

stop

please exit

help exit

<comment><USER27> ESC :wq should do the trick. (Yes, I know it's a joke)

<comment><USER28> Is there a way to exit without using the ":" key?

I ask because the other day I saw a friend of mine legitimately get stuck inside vim because he coundn't type ":". The keyboard language was set to the wrong language and none of the keys would output ":" when pressed. We had to reboot the machine and find a different keyboard.

<comment><USER29> Ctrl-Z to suspend and then you can kill the job

<comment><USER30> Yanking the power cord usually does the trick for me too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Vimperator did that. Just miss it.

</comment><comment><USER32> I like the idea, as I also want to write everything in Vim. But I (obviously) always have Vim running, and can get to it from anywhere with one keystroke. Once there, opening a buffer and copying its contents after writing stuff is just a few more keystrokes; so I don't see the need for this, at least for my setup--and I'm thinking that other hardcore Vim lovers have things set up similarly.

<comment><USER6> > But I (obviously) always have Vim running, and can get to it from anywhere > with one keystroke. Once there, opening a buffer and copying its contents > after writing stuff is just a few more keystrokes …

As an emacs user, I just love seeing vim-users discover the utility of an always-there, complete text-editing environment. If only theirs had an extension language worth its salt …

<comment><USER33> You can write vim extensions in python, Perl, ruby, lua and of course viml.

And vim launches in milliseconds, so no need to keep it running in the background as some text editing server.

<comment><USER32> Both true, but since I'm always editing something, I have it open in server mode so I can send a file to it for editing from the terminal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Similar but only for the browser there is the "It's All Text!" Firefox Add-on. I used it for years, but unfortunately it stopped working recently when I upgraded to Firefox Quantum, so "Vim Anywhere" is a welcome alternative. Certainly will try it.

<comment><USER16> Check out GhostText: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en- US/firefox/addon/ghosttext/](https://addons.mozilla.org/en- US/firefox/addon/ghosttext/)

I use it with Atomic Chrome for Emacs, but it supports Vim, Sublime, and Atom as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Here is the Emacs version for OS X (Emacs Anywhere, if you will). Just made it. Check it out at [https://github.com/zachcurry/emacs- anywhere](https://github.com/zachcurry/emacs-anywhere)

</comment><comment><USER36> A sort of similar effect can be achieved with iTerm's hotkey window.

I usually run an emacsclient inside tmux inside the hotkey window, with a scratch text-mode buffer active.

If I want to use emacs to work on some text from a non-emacs app, the steps are something like: select text, cmd-c, press hotkey (mine is option+space), ctrl-y, edit the text, select what I need, opt-w, press hotkey to switch back to the app, then cmd-v.

Since the hotkey window is running tmux, it's easy to create or switch to another tmux window and operate on the text with the help of pbpaste/pbcopy and good old pipe.

</comment><comment> yjftsjthsd-h Does anybody know of a way to do something like this in X11? I appreciate that macs have very nice built-in automation framework, but I'm not abandoning Linux just for that. There's xdotool for typing, but I don't know of any way to grab text boxes.

<comment><USER13> I wrote a five line script for it here >> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398356](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398356)

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h Not what I was thinking, but that works. Thanks

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Perhaps I've missed the point here. Couldn't you set VISUAL to your editor of choice?

<comment><USER38> It's for things like web forms or other GUI apps, for whom $VISUAL is not meaningful.

<comment><USER39> A different tact (for some cases) to the same end: use elinks[0] and in an active <textarea>, press shift-ctrl-T to pop up your favourite editor[1]. This works for gmail, for example.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELinks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELinks)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvi)

<comment><USER40> I can't recommend that. Elinks doesn't verify SSL certs when connecting to HTTPS sites. It hasn't had a release in five years. It also has worse support for web standards than IE6.

<comment><USER39> Huh, TIL. I think I actually don't care about any of that except for the cert verification, which is a Big Deal. Thx for the reply!

<comment><USER41> Lynx doesn't have as good standard support, but it is still semi-active (2017-07-10 (2.8.9dev.16)) over at InvisibleIsland[0], and can be compiled with OpenSSL support. (Windows installers require OpenSSL by default).

[0] [http://invisible-island.net/lynx/lynx-develop.html](http://invisible- island.net/lynx/lynx-develop.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I'm on mobile right now, so not able to test it, but if you start with selected text, does it fill the buffer with it? If not, perhaps this feature could be added? It would be helpful for quickly dropping into to vim for advanced editing.

<comment><USER43> There's an outstanding PR that does precisely that - [https://github.com/cknadler/vim- anywhere/pull/52](https://github.com/cknadler/vim-anywhere/pull/52)

<comment><USER44> It's just become apparent to me that outstanding has two very different meanings depending on context, and this is one of the first times I've seen it used where it could be ambiguous.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Somewhat related for vi enthusiasts: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9055523](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9055523)

The comment about rlwrap is especially handy.

</comment><comment><USER46> does this work on High Sierra for anyone? I'm having trouble getting the shortcut to trigger when in a text input on Chrome. I tried a couple different shortcuts already :/

</comment><comment><USER47> Clever architecture! Loving it!

</comment><comment><USER48> As someone who recently switched to vim and neovim - wow that's badass!

</comment><comment><USER49> .

</comment><comment><USER50> vim needs to be used in fewer places, not more.

<comment><USER51> Why? I use vi/vim for its ubiquity. Isn't it nice knowing you can show up at practically any terminal and have it at your disposal?

<comment><USER52> Exactly why I switched to vim from emacs. I also never let my bashrc or vimrc files grow too baroque.

<comment><USER53> Knowing both is not hard. Also if you don't change too much defaults it's not hard to downgrade to vanilla programs. My init.el is above 3000 lines, but I can easily use vanilla Emacs any time if I need to (or vi/vim/ex/ed for that matter). Same for bash, my .profile and .bashrc combined count ~300 lines, both POSIX compatible, and I'd hardly have a hard time at a foreign shell prompt. That's because I use configuration to extend, configure and personalise a program, instead of trying to recreate it.

(Edit: 300 not 900)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> while I love Vim and enjoy using Vim..... _facepalm_

<comment><USER55> Why?

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> testing that this works as comment....cool!

</comment><comment><USER57> Looks like a title of a horror movie</comment>


A radical pessimist's guide to the next 10 years (2012) - <AUTHOR> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/a-radical-pessimists-guide-to-the-next-10-years/article1321040/?page=all <comment><USER2> > 8) Try to live near a subway entrance. In a world of crazy-expensive oil, > it's the only real estate that will hold its value, if not increase.

Bah. If we're really _radically_ pessimistic, why would we assume that the government is going to keep subways running? We'll ride to work and back on a run-down unsafe old jitney-bus held together with string and chewing gum (duct-tape if you pay extra for first class service). Or a rusty old bicycle.

:P

</comment><comment><USER3> 46) Despite interesting premises, many articles will just be unedited stream of conscious fluff pieces. Wildly inconsistent in quality and often submitted with little concern beyond fulfilling a certain word count.

</comment><comment><USER4> "We will still be annoyed by people who pun, but we will be able to show them mercy because punning will be revealed to be some sort of connectopathic glitch: The punner, like someone with Tourette's, has no medical ability not to pun"

It took me until this point to realize this is satire playing parody of our fears.

</comment><comment><USER5> Some of those predictions have been around a long time-perhaps in 1994 Quebec might have been pictured as leaving Canada, but it never came to pass, and seems anachronistic in 2015. Quebec becoming independent seemed almost like a trope or cliche for 90s sci fi.

</comment><comment><USER6> The exact opposite of each of these things will happen.

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't think our future will be that bright. ([http://i.imgur.com/lM5lmHt.png](http://i.imgur.com/lM5lmHt.png)) [1]

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth)

</comment><comment><USER8> >The Arctic will become like Antarctica - an everyone/no one space

I don't think so. The arctic countries are really really keen on splitting that pie, and the talks are already on their way.

</comment><comment><USER9> Half of those things aren't even predictions they are just meaningless statements; those that are predictions are not based on any arguments.

Piece of rubbish.

</comment><comment><USER10> I think the point about considering people with lower tech as pass-aggressive control freaks has already come to pass.

<comment><USER11> Oh really? <throwing away pieces of Google Glass while wiping from my face the blood flowing out of a broken nose>

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This reads like a shitty distopian novel.

</comment><comment><USER13> "Stupid people will be in charge, only to be replaced by ever-stupider people. You will live in a world without kings, only princes in whom our faith is shattered"

A million times this

<comment><USER14> If only I could be so optimistic. Stupid people wouldn't be able to conceive of or execute on the ideas emerging from Washington DC.

We should be so lucky as to be ruled by ever more stupid people.</comment></comment>


A Template System for Google Docs: Google Drive Automation and PDF Generation - <AUTHOR> http://tomassetti.me/google-drive-automation-with-google-execution-api-filling-templates-programmatically-and-download-pdf-version/ <comment><USER2> fancy... But perhaps a proper system is what is needed, I.e. An existing invoicing system. Why do we always have to build everything when something better exists?</comment>


Embracing the Kobayashi Maru – Why You Should Teach Your Students to Cheat [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://www.rumint.org/gregconti/publications/201107_Kobayashi.pdf <comment><USER2> Slight nitpick, but is that really Kobayashi Maru? From what I've remember - Kobayashi Maru is testing how examined person reacts under extreme stress of a no win scenario, not whether he cheats or not.

<comment><USER3> Clearly the article should be titled "Embracing James Tiberius Kirk's Solution to the Kobayashi Maru"

<comment><USER4> I'm just going to take the opportunity to react to reboot-Trek and say that I hope the non-angsty version of young Kirk had a slightly _classier_ way of handling that particular hack... because as it was presented by angsty-Kirk, it was utterly uncreative and dull.

Come on, man, you should have more style than _that_.

<comment><USER5> But Kirk _is_ a cad. Why would anything he does be classy?

<comment><USER6> Especially a young Kirk, who hasn't yet had years to develop a sense of style.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Oh yes. The problem is that people are coming out of college too ethical these days. Especially in business. We need much less ethical business leaders. That was sarcasm. This author has announced himself as a proud sociopath.

<comment><USER8> What does willingness to circumvent arbitrary systems of rules - which may or may not be aligned with desirable outcomes - have to do with ethics?

To me, ethics seems to have more to do with the good vs. evil dimension than with the lawful vs. chaotic.

In fact, doesn't the term "sociopath" seem more appropriate for people who source ethics in external rules rather than native conscience?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> The authors also presented a talk at Shmoocon 2012: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0JHDr1oT0Y>

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh nice, didn't know about this. I'll watch this talk later!

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> EDIT:

I'm going to clarify to the following and leave it that.

The world is not a homogenous group where cheaters can dominate honest folks with their mathematically 'dominating' strategy.

instead honest folks very much do make it a top priority to avoid these cheaters.

if a top university teaches cheating, its alums will simply not have access to, for example, honest early-stage markets based on trust.

i disagree with the findings of the article for this reason.

</comment><comment><USER11> It seems funny that professors don't think the students are cheating normally. If this is what the students are willing to share with the proctors the real 'guns' must be more amazing.

</comment><comment><USER12> The ultimate "learn faster than your foe or die" is in my opinion counter- insurgency. There is the army manual on counter insurgency by Gen. Petraeus(free download <http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf>), heavy on army procedures, but the general guidelines are very interesting. There are also David Kilcullen´s books, very well written with great insights on the mistakes made on Afghanistan and Irak.

<comment><USER13> Coram's _Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War_ provides an utterly fascinating glimpse into this type of competitive thinking. Boyd's theories are regularly cited by today's Lean Startup personalities. Here's an excerpt from his magnum opus:

" _To comprehend and cope with our environment we develop mental patterns or concepts of meaning. The purpose of this paper is to sketch out how we destroy and create these patterns to permit us to both shape and be shaped by a changing environment. In this sense, the discussion also literally shows why we cannot avoid this kind of activity if we intend to survive on our own terms._ "

I never managed to finish the one Kilcullen book I bought.

<comment><USER14> The OODA loop, always relevant. People that don't understand the concept are doomed to die upon it. Exceptionally relevant in the high-tech business world.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> On a somewhat unrelated topic, I've been trying to remember the name of the 'Kobayashi Maru' for months and I ket remembering it as 'Komagata Maru' which is something completely different. Thank you for jogging my memory.

<comment><USER16> For those interested in Japanese ship-naming conventions[0], from Wiki:

> The word _maru_ (丸 meaning "circle") is often attached to Japanese ship > names. The first ship known to follow this convention was the Nippon Maru, > flagship of daimyo Toyotomi Hideyoshi's 16th century fleet.

0: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ship- naming_convention...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ship- naming_conventions)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> The meta-cheat is asking why you should be shilling for grades in the first place.

</comment><comment><USER18> For me it would be a red flag to study or work at any institution who expects me to memorize more than the first 6 digits of π unless some kind of cake is involved.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well obviously, the point was only to make it impossible so that students cheated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I guess the real takeaway from this article is that cheating encourages people to employ creative skills otherwise left unused in many class situations? I had a hard time grokking the underlying message of the article. Clearly just cheating to fake your understanding is not what's being advocated here.

</comment><comment><USER20> Did anyone else notice the picture of the course text? It was Cory Doctorow's "Little Brother". I would love to hear what an officer training course has to say in a discussion of that book. Wow.

</comment><comment><USER21> The article is _not_ endorsing cheating, as many commenters seem to think. It is endorsing thinking like a cheater to anticipate cheaters' attacks.

<comment><USER22> The article is endorsing cheating as a learning methodology. Cheating helps to drive innovation. However, I agree that the article is not endorsing cheating from an ethical standpoint.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> And this is why information security will always be lightyears behind any threat in the real world. If you introduce to a classroom of people a task intended to make them cheat, and then you're required to follow up with the information that they're supposed to cheat, well... Let's just say that the people they're supposed to be defending networks and systems against don't need to be told when and where to cheat a system.</comment>