The Fasting Cure Is No Fad - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fasting-cure-is-no-fad-11564676512?mod=rsswn <comment><USER2> I'm about 6 hours away from ending a 5 day fast. I can't confirm all of the benefits from the article (I'm neither a diabetic, spiritual person, nor suffering from cancer), but I can attest to the power of the final quote in the article: "'Anyone can reach his goals if he can think, if he can wait, if he can fast.'"

Two main takeaways I've gained from fasting (I've done multiple 24 hour fasts prior to this 5 day one):

1\. You don't need to eat nearly as often as you think. Hunger pangs are usually just food cravings, and drinking lots and lots of water, water you should probably be drinking anyway, will mask them more easily than one would expect.

2\. The successful self-deprivation of food (in a healthy, reasonable way) and the almost exclusively positive benefits that it brings makes you wonder how much of an economic and nationwide health impact the USA would see if everyone practiced some form of fasting.

<comment><USER3> I struggle to gain weight (always have), and fasting sounds incredibly easy to me - all you have to do is _not do_ something. On the other hand, eating to gain weight if you have no/little appetite is hard work - you actually have to take the time to _do_ it.

Is there a relatively easy way to boost one's appetite? Drinking a gallon of full fat milk a day on top of one's usual meals is the easiest option I have found, but even that is a lot of hard work.

<comment><USER4> > Drinking a gallon of full fat milk a day on top of one's usual meals is the > easiest option I have found

That's actually part of Mark Rippetoe's bulking diet. It's apparently the best combination of calorie density and beneficial nutrients. There's a section on diet on _Starting Strength_ , if you are interested.

<comment><USER5> Never thought I'd see the day when Dr. Fraud Rippetoe gets recommended on HN. That guy is overweight and out of shape and his lifting advice injures 99%+ of people who take it. Tread lightly when following the incredibly stupid teachings of Mark Rippetoe, man.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I inadvertently started fasting during college due to my class schedule, living off campus, and not being able to afford eating out. I'm now at a point in my life where my schedule is more flexible, I'm not spending as much time commuting, and I can afford to eat out if I choose to, but I've continued to maintain a one meal a day lifestyle. I don't feel the sensation of hunger anymore though I still have an appetite. My coworkers get noticeably anxious and antsy if they don't have their lunch by 11 AM while hunger no longer affects my ability to concentrate. I've also been able to maintain a healthy BMI as I age; I'm neither overweight or underweight.

I will say that when I was younger I often wanted a bodybuilder physique, but I didn't have the discipline to eat enough to support proper muscle growth. Now I'm just glad I'm not going the seemingly inevitable route of becoming an overweight middle-aged office worker that morphs into their chair.

Edit: To be clear, I still go to the gym regularly to lift weights and do cardio even with fasting, but I never have and never will compete in any bodybuilding competitions (which I'm OK with).

<comment><USER7> Does the exercising during fasting cause you to feel hunger pangs more intensely?

<comment><USER8> I haven't noticed any. I've been intermittent fasting for about two years with 16 hours no eating 8 hours to eat. Occasionally a 24 hour fast. Usually the most intense hunger pangs occur when I have eaten a lot of carbs the day prior.

I do weight training and running. Usually after a workout I feel like the cravings I do have are more manageable. You do need to be careful though. I wouldn't recommend doing any weight training if you're doing more than a 24 hour fast and if you are weight training while fasting make sure you have a spotter. At least at first.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I did read the recent research in support of intermittent fasting, but a lot of the quotes in this article seem like pseudoscience.

> It also reduces the time spent each day processing food and lengthens the > period devoted to cleansing and restoring the body's cells, both of which > have positive health effects.

So "cleansing and restoring" the body's cells only happens when one isn't eating?? Gonna need a citation for that one.

<comment><USER10> I think people feel the need to add a scientific explanation to things where in my view the pure observation that it seems to work would be enough already. It reminds me a little of Semmelweiss who observed that washing hands reduces infection rates but was ridiculed because he couldn't explain it.

When I meditate or fast from time to time I can observe that it makes me feel better and I don't really feel the importance for someone to explain it.

<comment><USER11> >I think people feel the need to add a scientific explanation to things where in my view the pure observation that it seems to work would be enough already.

I really could not disagree more, given how much conflicting health information I see talked about seemingly daily.

<comment><USER10> Agreed. But if you try something and it shows benefits then you don't necessarily need an explanation. For example exercise and mediation done regularly make me feel better but I don't really care if it's endorphins, hormones or any other mechanism that causes this.

<comment><USER12> For now. But what if it stops working? What if someone else wants the benefit but can't do the same things? What if there are other undesirable consequences that you'd like to avoid? Knowing _how_ something works is generally much more valuable than knowing _that_ it works in the long term.

<comment><USER10> Sure. It's good to have people trying to understand things but while they are findings explanations we can take advantage of the benefits already and don't have to wait. I am thinking the same about placebo effects. As long as it works let's use it and in parallel make an effort to understand the mechanism.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've been doing IF (18:6) for 6 months and OMAD (23:1) for 2 months, while I've lost a decent amount of weight, slowly but surely, I've mostly plateaued. I don't weigh myself and I'm very active (ice hockey 3-5 times a week) but I've noticed a difference in body fat qualitatively.

But... that's not why I am doing it. I've suffered for years from migraines. 2-4 times a week, I've been to half a dozen doctors with no solid recommendations besides medication.

Now, not only do I take zero medication, but I get migraines about once a month, and way less severe than I used to. Ive also correlated the migraines with times followed by poor fasting behavior (for instance, eating all day on a weekend with family and friends).

I also need less sleep, am less groggy, and have far fewer stomach issues.

Overall its a massively net positive change.

<comment><USER14> Do you grind your teeth at night? I used to have severe migraines at least once a month until I got a night guard from a dentist that prevented grinding. Now I get a migraine maybe once a year.

I have a guard from a company called NTI. It's a small piece of acrylic that sits on my upper front teeth and has a sort of "shelf" that my lower incisors rest on. This apparently tricks the brain into refusing to clench down because at a deep level it knows not to bite when it's incisor on incisor.

I recall reading that this style of night guard, while certainly better than a whole tooth guard that still allows you to grind but just protects your teeth, is not great for long term. However I can't recall why and I need to research more. In any case I've been using mine for over 10 years and I would never go back to not using it.

Anyway, a bunch of unsolicited info that will maybe help you or anyone suffering from migraines who stumbles across this post.

<comment><USER15> It can adjust your bite if worn too many hours in a day. Worth asking dentist, bit prob not serious if worn only during sleep and bite is monitored.

<comment><USER15> I should add I'm thinking specifically of anterior bite planes. Unsure if you have that or something different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> YAA (Yet another anecdote)

Fasting has changed my life. I put a ton of weight on in B-school (yes not afraid to admit I went to b school on HN) that plus my consulting lifestyle (lack of good quality sleep for days at a time) really started to take a toll on my health (lines and bags under my eyes, poor health and energy levels in general).

My wife is due with our second in august, so I decided to get in shape as a gift to my baby girl. I'm not a gym goer, so fasting looked appealing. There's so much research around IF, circadian rhythms, effect on anti cancer factors, autophagy, anti Alzheimer's, diabetes, etc, definitely a lot more to motivate people now than before when it was likely for spiritual reasons.

I dropped forty pounds in the last three months, and probably look almost ten years younger, I feel like my body has almost reversed the damage I did to it from school and over work. I was addicted to eating and I've broken through that, and now I can just work non stop all day for 12-18 hours as needed, whereas my colleagues are still fixated on six small meals, which I've now realized is so disruptive to work and concentration. No more after lunch coma, I haven't even had to set foot in a gym. I don't do Omad but will do 48h and 72h fasting, and I feel fine, have not felt a huge drop in muscle that everyone freaks out about. All in all I will keep going with this fasting focused lifestyle, and would definitely recommend anyone who is struggling with this to try it.. first week is toughest, once you break through the addiction, you won't even think about it.

<comment><USER17> Don't fool yourself thinking that after few weeks or even months of dieting/fasting you've broken the addiction. That was my mistake the first time I began IF.. after 8 months I decided that eating normally for a few weeks will not change anything.. 10 months later I'm back at my pre-diet weight trying to restart the whole process again.

<comment><USER16> Great advice, thanks! Yes for me it's committing to weight myself everyday (at least for the next year or two) and adjusting the fasting protocol if the weight starts to go out of normal range.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Another anecdote, but others might find it useful: I have been doing intermittent fasting for years now. I currently eat once per day. My eating window is usually an hour or less. I eat dinner, have dessert, go to bed. I run five miles every morning on an empty stomach. During the day I drink only water and I put an electrolyte fizzy tablet in my first glass.

It works great for me for maintaining my energy level and managing my weight. It probably does not work for everybody, but I think more people should try it.

Most humans currently living and who have lived didn't eat three meals every day. It's a recent phenomenon driven by those marketing food and snacks. Observing obesity rates, more people should try hunger and learn how to manage it.

I should add: I do occasionally have breakfast and lunch meetings or social engagements at which I feel compelled to eat or have a treat. I find that once I break my fast for the day, my hunger is awakened and it is harder to abstain.

</comment><comment><USER19> Fasting has a side-benefit of saving lots of time. Less time planning meals. Less time shopping. Less time preparing food. Less time eating. For me, the extra N hours a day I save is very noticeable.

I also notice more easily how food is pushed on us. Food advertising is pervasive. In the city, you cannot even walk 50m without seeing a signboard enticing you to eat something. Everywhere people are eating, carrying food, talking about food. When I am in a more natural setting, thoughts about food come from within. I get hungry, and then I think about eating. If I am not hungry, I do not think much about eating (aside from having basic food security). The desire for food is not broadcast to me.

<comment><USER20> I did the CRON diet in the early 2000s, and our motto was that we eat to live, rather than living to eat. I don't deliberately restrict calories anymore, but it gave me a unique perspective in a world of celebrity chefs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Mostly I agree with the idea of limited eating to a window of roughly 12 hours; however I disagree with skipping breakfast.

I never use to eat breakfast until a recent hockey injury where I damaged 6 teeth including losing 2. My weight dropped rapidly because I couldn't eat solids so I started to eat eggs and tofu a lot (mostly eggs). The byproduct of all this was I would wake up so hungry I was dizzy so I started having 3 eggs for breakfast.

I'm mostly over the injury now (still waiting for the implants to be implanted), however I've continued to eat a large breakfast and my weight has remained the same - roughly 20 pounds lower than before the injury. I had already gotten in the habit of not eating at night, and if I have anything it's a little bit of yogurt.

Long/short I think it's a mistake to skip breakfast, I had done that for most of my life and now I'm sharper and more productive in the AM than I have ever been.

<comment><USER22> Just an anecdote as proof to the opposite. If I eat breakfast, I ruin my entire day.

It seems for me digesting a meal early in the day makes me lazy and sleepy. In high school, I use to eat a very light breakfast to avoid terrible hunger just before lunch. Even then, I'd get a bit sleepy. As I've gotten older, it just gets worse.

My solution is to skip breakfast, but eat lunch an hour earlier than most people.

<comment><USER23> What are you eating for breakfast? Foods that are high in carbs (such as cereal or pancakes) are often eaten by people, but these are terrible because they spike your blood sugar (and insulin), and then you have the blood sugar crash right before lunch.

I had a lot of luck with eating breakfast foods high in fat and protein, like boiled eggs and bacon. It works best if your body is adapted to a ketogenic diet, and you avoid carbs in general.

One you are adapted to a ketogenic diet, you will find that you can skip entire meals without hardly even noticing a reduction in energy. Your blood sugar will stabilise over time, and you just always have a low and slow burn of energy.

<comment><USER22> It really doesn't matter what I eat (I've tried tons of combinations). If it's anything substantial, it makes me sleepy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Gonna join the anecdote club. Before I started doing IF, I had a lot of stomach problems. I was taking omeprazole and eventually pantoprazole (more powerful) but still frequently had heartburn overnight and woke up with a horrible taste in my mouth. I had some bad flareups where I'd wake up puking bile and felt horrible all day long. Prior to that even I had two endoscopies and got tested for Crohn's disease (my dad has it, I tested negative). I was seriously considering that I'd never be able to eat Indian food again (my favorite!). On top of that, I would get EXTREMELY hangry every day, multiple times a day.

Then I tried IF.. after just a couple weeks I was able to stop the pantoprazole and my heartburn problems went away. The first two weeks were hard, I had a constant dull headache and the hunger at night (I'm 'skipping dinner' in my 16/8 schedule) was pretty hard. But after I got used to it, I felt much better over all. No more getting hangry, no more heartburn, no more trouble sleeping, no more groggy mornings, better mood overall.

It's ridiculous how much food and your eating patterns can affect you. I've seen it multiple times now when I've 'fallen off the [IF] wagon'... my mood deteriorates, and often other symptoms come out: headaches, upset stomach, all sorts of stuff. I don't think it's absurd to think that the stuff you're putting into your body "for energy" actually has a lot of other affects on your system.

Oh, and I dropped some of the weight I started gaining in my 30's when I did IF, too, which is a benefit of course, but not my reason for doing it.

<comment><USER25> Are you able to eat Indian food again? And at what time do you have usually eat now?

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> For a diabetes/obesity focus on this point, read anything by Jason Fung. For instance, "The obesity code" is thoroughly researched and persuasive.

As a diabetes researcher myself, it makes sense. While I do not investigate type 2, I understand that having a decent stretch of time where the body's insulin levels drop is a really good thing.

<comment><USER27> For anyone who wants to go a bit into the weeds, I really enjoyed this episode of Peter Attia's podcast where he interviewed Jason Fung: [https://peterattiamd.com/jasonfung/](https://peterattiamd.com/jasonfung/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I've been doing intermittent fasting on and off for years now. In the past few months, I have become more extreme and am doing OMAD (One Meal a Day). I typically do a 23/1 fast where I only eat within a 1 hour period (dinner). The Keto diet + OMAD has enabled me to lose more than 100lbs and keep it off.

I haven't been perfect but I have noticed that it (obviously) has cut my mindless snacking and has made me more mindful as to what I'm actually eating. After about a week your body adjusts and you're hungry during the day.

What I've been doing now is during lunch, instead of eating I go for a 30-45 minute walk.

</comment><comment><USER29> I did an over-the-top version of intermittent fasting for about two months last year where I would fast (no calories, just water and black coffee/tea) for at least 24 hours and then would eat normally the following day and then fast again. So alternating >24 hr fasts with a day normal eating (3 normal meals).

During this experiment I felt mentally fantastic. Mood was improved. Energy was higher. Not to mention I spent way less money on food, spent way less time thinking about or having to find food on my fasting days, and felt more in control of my hunger.

I tried increasing my fast from 24 hrs to 48 hrs, it went fine. But when I broke my fast with a large bean rice and cheese burrito, I felt like I was dying about 30 minutes later (lightheadedness, tachycardia, nausea). Ended up being hospitalized with refeeding syndrome or something similar, which was surprising to physicians because they only saw refeeding syndrome (had critically low phosphate) in people who had gone without significant caloric intake for weeks or months at a time.

I've never been the same since then. I think Ive developed gastrocardiac syndrome because I frequently (1-2x week) get less severe episodes of nausea, lightheadedness and tachycardia that generally self resolve but still feels like I'm dying for about 30 minutes. It's been about a year now, so seems somewhat permanent damage.

So, I definitely recommend intermittent fasting but if you have a tendency to take things to the extreme, just don't. It's not worth it.

<comment><USER30> Have you heard of POTS? I wonder if electrolyte imbalance was/is driving some of your symptoms. Doing low-ish carb (nowhere near keto) and IF 18 hours a day, I have to supplement electrolytes or else I have very similar symptoms to you. YMMV of course.

<comment><USER29> Yes, that was considered as a possibility, and it still could be. But as the name suggests (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), there should be orthostatic tachycardia which I don't have. I just get (as far as I can tell) random episodes of sinus tachycardia + lightheadedness, which have happened while being seated. I got an echo and many EKGs that were all normal. I can't seem to connect the dots on any triggers or things that help. Been trying to exercise more which does seem to help, but exercise probably helps everything.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> What they're describing here is close to the popular 16:8 variant of intermittent fasting. I found that it doesn't really work for weight loss for me.

Instead, I'm using the Every Other Day Diet variant of intermittent fasting which arguably is the best researched one. It helped me drop weight significantly in 2015 with little trouble (details: [http://lukasz.langa.pl/9/i-lost-26-pounds- in-3-months/](http://lukasz.langa.pl/9/i-lost-26-pounds-in-3-months/)).

Sadly, since I stopped cycling regularly two years back and dropped the diet a year ago, I regained what I lost and then some. So I'm back on intermittent fasting now.

Recommendations based on my experience:

\- weigh yourself daily in the morning, as the very second thing you're doing

\- a Withings scale or similar helps putting this in a database efortlessly which helps seeing trends

\- observe your moving average of 7 days

\- eat _just_ a light lunch (circa 500 kcal) every other day; it's easy to skip breakfast knowing there's going to be lunch soon and it's possible to skip dinner knowing "it's Eat Day tomorrow!"

\- eat what you want on Eat Day _but do it slowly_ , your body will quickly adapt to your fasts, the stomach will shrink and it's going to be easier to get full

\- let people know you're losing weight and how, they will probably tell you you're more grumpy on Non-Eat Days

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER32> Anecdata: I've tried fasting of various kinds over the last few years, both IF (18:6) and 5-day fasts. Personally, I found great cognitive benefits from fasting, starting day 3 or 4 in the 5-day fast. That said, I found the most benefit from:

1\. Maintaining a very low-carb diet (~20 net carbs spread out through the day, mostly from lemons) which I have sustained for a year so far. I occasionally cheat but not often as it takes me about 8 days to get back into ketosis after each cheat and never feels worth it after the fact

2\. Exercising (weight lifting and cardio) 3 times per week

3\. _Never_ eating anything with 'added sweetener', so pretty much no desserts of any kind. This includes 'neutral' sweeteners with no calories (e.g., monk fruit). It has been almost 2 years since I have eaten any kind of dessert and I very rarely miss them at this point

Doing the above, I feel amazing almost every day. I have no known bodily ailments, never get sick, have sustained energy levels all day, every day, and am my ideal weight with little fluctuation. The hardest part of sticking to my rules has been maneuvering through incessant social expectations and demands to eat particular foods, like breads, desserts, etc.

</comment><comment><USER33> I've written previously of how I got sick after a tick bite, and how I stayed sick for a very long time, even after taking antibiotics, and how, in the end, fasting helped bring about a permanent cure:

[http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/how-i-recovered- from-...](http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/how-i-recovered-from-lyme- disease)

</comment><comment><USER34> I've never fasted, but I HAVE lost 62lbs and counting over the past 18 months or so. All I've had to do is eat a lot less, and work out a lot more! It's primarily down to meal tracking, so I know what my inputs and outputs are. It's easier than ever with apps to do all this stuff, and fitness watches that can estimate how much you burn in your daily activities and workouts. Once you start getting that feedback loop of something that works (rather than "I ate healthy for a few weeks and my weight stayed the same, so fuckit, I give up"), I find it so much easier.

It's interesting to me that the author proposes skipping breakfast, which is generally considered to be "the most important meal of the day". Most folks say your smallest meal should be dinner, but I think for most of us, it's the biggest. You have more time for it, and you're worn out and hungry from the day. I do it all wrong; I eat 3 meals a day plus a few snacks, and after getting off work, doing a workout, going home, showering, prepping dinner, it seems like it's 9pm before dinner most days, and in bed within 90mins.

I actually did have a period where I probably stuck fairly close to the proposed schedule; for several years I didn't eat breakfast at all, because I was too lazy to bother. By 11:45 I'd be aching for food, and annoyed that my coworkers took forever to decide where to go. I started eating breakfast, and found that it delayed my hunger pangs by only 15 minutes -- that is to say, it was a habit, rather than purely food driven.

But I wasn't light back in the days when I was skipping breakfast, and I didn't gain weight when I started eating breakfast.

I think the key here is that you have to be skipping breakfast intentionally, as part of a method of restricting ourselves, of being mindful about what you eat. And you can do that in any number of ways.

</comment><comment><USER35> To me at least, food is like chemo, I'll die without it, but it makes me feel terrible.

<comment><USER36> I'd love to eat socially once a week and just have a pill on other days

<comment><USER37> I can't fathom this. I have a condition that makes me incredibly nauseous and STILL I long to cook and eat beautiful meals, even though I can barely tolerate them.

<comment><USER35> Oh I love to eat too but it always makes me feel like trash.

<comment><USER37> Do you have undiagnosed food allergies/sensitivities? Food shouldn't make you feel like crap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I've been curious about intermittent fasting for awhile but I think it's important to keep in mind what the literature has to tell us. I've linked to a NCBI article from 2016 which I recognize is a little old but I think it's worth reading the conclusion section if you are thinking about giving intermittent fasting a try. I think the jury is still out on whether or not the "Fasting Cure is No Fad"

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/)

</comment><comment><USER39> For those who want to try extended fasting but are worried that this might be too hardcore, It's helpful to know that the fasting mimicking diet can be approximated by simply eating ~700 calories (around 16oz) of avocado/guacamole per day. I often extend a fast by eating avocado. Research suggests that you extend the benefits of autophagy with less stress.

</comment><comment><USER40> I would recommend reading "The Circadian Code" by Dr. Satchin Panda and judging for yourself. My takeaway was that it is more than fasting, it is about getting your body's cycles to sync up (sleep cycle, digestive cycle, repair cycle, etc.).

Also, I think it is interesting that a lot of religions have a fasting component.

</comment><comment><USER41> Fasting has been known for a very long time, and people often practiced it for religious reasons. Intermittent Fasting is actually a Fad, and don't expect any magical from it. Some people simply don't eat breakfast, but they don't call it intermittent fasting. My mother never eats breakfast, simply because she is not hungry in the morning. She is not super healthy, nor she aged better than people who do eat breakfast. I also find it funny when people finish dinner at 8PM, and immediately start tracking fast while they have a stomach full of food which is not going to fully digest for several hours. Wait till your food is digested before start tracking your fast.

</comment><comment> a0-prw Starting in 2012 I began regular fasting, first with one day a week (36 hours) and later 2 days a week. My weight went from 95 kg to 70 kg and stayed there until I got into a bad relationship which devolved into alcohol and stress (but which was kinda fun as well). I stopped fasting for the 2 years it lasted and my weight crept up to 85 kg. I've started fasting again (3 days a week) and it's down below 80 for the first time in a year. I record my weight every day and have done so since 2012. Fasting works like clockwork for me. I can predict what my weight will be in 6 weeks (f.ex), depending on how many fasting days I decide on. I lose between 220 to 230 grams per fast.

</comment><comment><USER42> I do intermittent fasting. Stop eating around 4pm and start eating around 9am. (no food around 17hrs/day).

The first two weeks are the hardest (hunger pains during fasting hours). Afterwards, hunger pains still occasionally occur but are a lot less severe, and sipping a herbal tea is enough keep my mouth busy.

I also find that cheat days (pigging out due to social occasions) don't really mess up my cycle on following days, which I found very surprising.

The only problem I have is when doing lots of physical activity. This summer I'm working on my house and gardening a lot, so I need to be sure to pig out before my 4pm cutoff or I'll be at a super calorie deficit and make the labor miserable.

</comment><comment><USER43> I am surprised this is even something that needs much discussion.

On a personal, one data point, level, when I go 12 to 14 hours a day without eating, I simply feel better. On a personal level I don't so much care for the science because if I feel better, then intermittent fasting is a good thing to do.

On a scientific level, I participated in a Stanford fasting experiment where I used their app to record data. Also, there have been sufficient studies performed on the physical/biological benefits that I also believe in that.

All that said, if intermittent fasting is not your thing, I would expect that just getting exercise and eating a healthy diet is good enough.

</comment><comment><USER44> I believe this is the author. [https://gero.usc.edu/fasting- conference/professional/andreas...](https://gero.usc.edu/fasting- conference/professional/andreas/)

So let's check a few boxes. Is promoting his own book. This is the WSJ not a medical journal. Mice are not a perfect analog to humans. One study is hilariously small at 69 women. The cancer study is from self reported information. He specializes in alternative medicine, including homeopathy.

Science VS covered this topic a while back. Click on the transcript to get all the references they used when building the episode.

[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/76hdko/fasting- diet...](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/76hdko/fasting-diets-whats- the-skinny)

There may be something to fasting diet and findings warrant further research. I am willing to wait until it is better understood.

<comment><USER45> >One study is hilariously small at 69 women. The cancer study is from self reported information. He specializes in alternative medicine, including homeopathy.

>There may be something to fasting diet and findings warrant further research.

You do know Yoshinori Ohsumi won the Nobel Prize in Physiology/Medicine in 2016 for discovering and elucidating mechanisms underlying autophagy right? There isn't really any debate that Fasting/caloric restriction triggers autophagy only in mice not humans, or that autopaghy and its benefits are limited to mice.

What is your standard of proof?

<comment><USER44> My standard of proof is recommendations from Mayo Clinic, AMA/JAMA. I am not a medical researcher, so I turn to experts.

I am not familiar with Dr. Ohsumi, but looking at a summary of his award in 2016 indicates his research for the genetic and chemical pathways of autophagy. The author of this article is the one linking fasting to autophagy.

My last statement is trying to state that there is room for additional research. Currently the impact (on many things, weight loss, cancer, heart health) of intermittent fasting isn't clear. This is the horrible wishy/washy statement that you get because there is a hypothesis that hasn't been proven/disproven. Personally, I'm ignoring IF until proven otherwise by larger human trials.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This probably reflects poorly on me but the #1 reason why I think it's difficult to fast is because of boredom more than anything else - does anybody have any strategies for this?

<comment><USER30> I'm shocked by how often my "hunger" goes away after a cup of hot coffee or tea, or water with himalayan salt added. Part of it I'm sure is the action of getting up and getting myself something, though salt craving feeling like hunger is very real too.

<comment><USER46> Yeah that's true, one thing that sometimes helps manage it is drinking LaCroix but ~1 hour later its back and feels worse.

<comment><USER30> There could be a few different things at play. I'd try a bit of sea (or himalayan etc) salt and see if that helps. Otherwise, perhaps you really are just hungry and need to eat. Many people doing IF do larger meals with minimal snacking (since part of the benefit is to keep insulin low most of the time). Higher fat content and lower carb content in the meal before a fast will also help.

It may also just take time for you to work your way up to longer fasts.

<comment><USER46> Cool idea, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I lost 35 pounds in 40 days of on/off fasting.

I feel so much better and healthier now.

Longest stretch was probably 5 or 6 days. I'd lose 5 or 6 pounds.

Regular stretch was 2 or 3 days.

Big con: I did throw up a lot from keto flu. I recommend eating right away after that (slowly but solidly) then resume, drink heavily vitamin water (no sugar) and maybe and egg a day.

</comment><comment><USER48> I am currently in the middle of my 3rd 6 days fasting. Every time it gets easier. The benefits are obvious for me. I was never so relaxed as after the fasting. The mind goes clear, there is no better time for deep thinking. Energy levels are going up. An insteresting journey to myself and my body.

</comment><comment><USER49> I've never fasted for multiple days at a time, but I've been eating what most people would consider 1 meal a day for the past 10 years. Not that I set out to do this. It is what felt adequate naturally.

I've been 5'6" 125 lbs since I stopped getting taller in highschool and I'm 30 now.

</comment><comment><USER50> Cure for what exactly? If you're a T2 you're still a T2. Fasting doesn't mean a T2 can eat a chunk of cake and have a normal glucose response. But being a controlled T2 is infinitely better than what most T2s experience. It's just that the "cure" talk is misleading.

</comment><comment><USER51> So you're telling me that if I exercise restraint in the way I eat, I can lose weight as a result? Wow.

</comment><comment><USER52> My trick to skipping breakfast:

Forgetting to eat in the morning because I work from home and get engrossed in what I do.

Anyone here relate?

<comment><USER53> I started skipping breakfast when we moved to a new house and I no longer had a microwave to heat up my oatmeal (I never learned to cook; the microwave is the only way I know to make oatmeal). On top of that, I had a longer commute, so I had less time in the morning anyway.

<comment><USER54> If you can boil water, you can cook oatmeal. There is nothing else to it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> I love skipping the middle meal (lunch) but there is no research for that unfortunately

</comment><comment><USER56> I would like to try out fasting more, but I get too hungry!

Seriously though, cutting breakfast does seem like an easy way to do it! Eating in the morning is more of a habit than a need, plus it would be an easy way to cut calories too.

<comment><USER57> What made a huge difference for me is lowering my intake of carbohydrates and transitioning to a lower carb and higher fat diet. I think the way it works is that our bodies have a lot of energy available from fat stores and becoming more fat-adapted means that during fasting hunger is satiated by energy coming from fat.

<comment><USER58> I agree with this completely. For some of us carbs generate craving - they are addictive. The way to test if you are one is to stop all carbs, as much as you can. If I eat a doughnut I gain a pound, not because of the doughnut, but because I then crave more food.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> When I read "a 5 day fast", does that mean avoiding food for 5 days? No food at all?

I started with IF a few weeks ago and skipped meal for 20 hours max. And I am wondering how people manage to skip good for five days or longer.

<comment><USER30> I've been doing IF since 2014 and still haven't managed to get much past 24 hours -- partly admittedly for lack of trying -- I can't imagine trying to do an extended fast (more than 24 hours) only a few weeks in. You need more time to work up to it and get familiar with your body's signals and needs.

<comment><USER59> Wow, that's for quite some years. Do you have any book / website (about how to do IF) you can recommend?

<comment><USER30> Yes, I went a couple years doing a very easy 14:10 fast, which was easy to maintain and is what I credit for stabilizing my blood sugar, which used to crash all the time (especially bonking during bike rides). My body now is fine exercising without having eaten, no problem. That alone is worth it.

Due to other health issues and related sensitivities and metabolic problems I have gotten more serious about it and learning about the science, and thus moved to an 18:6 fasting schedule. I have continued to be very happy with the results and the lifestyle.

The book I'd absolutely recommend is The Complete Guide to Fasting by Dr. Jason Fung (see an article by him on IF 101 here: [https://www.dietdoctor.com/intermittent- fasting](https://www.dietdoctor.com/intermittent-fasting)). I'd also recommend the Intensive Dietary Management program's various blog posts such as [https://idmprogram.com/the-failure-of-the-calorie-theory- of-...](https://idmprogram.com/the-failure-of-the-calorie-theory-of-obesity/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Alternatively, You could eat breakfast early, say 6am, and have dinner at 8pm and skip lunch (i.e. just have a banana or apple). That's something I have kind of been doing and it's working well.

<comment><USER2> A banana or apple for lunch isn't fasting. Fasting is, in most circles, the exclusion of caloric intake. Some would suggest that it's the specific exclusion of calories and anything that triggers an insulin response in the body, but that's debatable.

Not debatable though is if eating an apple for lunch means you're still fasting; you aren't.

<comment><USER61> History, the term "fasting" is often used to mean the reduction of food, omitting or only eating specific foods, or eating at only specific meals.

If you're interested, the wikipedia page has several examples:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> How the hell do you "fast" in an open plan office environment... I just dont have the stamina and will power to deal with all the people/food etc

</comment><comment><USER63> I don't know.. I've done intermittent fasting.. aka one meal a day and it hasn't worked for me..

<comment><USER27> What were your goals? What kinds of meals did you eat for the one meal?

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> That what worries me is "He fed a group of mice a high-fat diet around the clock for 18 weeks...". I fail to see any trace of scientific experiment run on people. There is some anecdotal evidence "I've employed what's called intermittent fasting, or time-restricted eating, to help patients with an array of chronic conditions". How it helped? Helped everyone? What about control group?

The only cited research is that: "Among 2,400 women with early-stage breast cancer who provided information on their eating rhythm, roughly 400 suffered from new tumors within seven years. But women who fasted for 13 hours nightly had 26% less risk of recurrence than the control group". Was this only difference between those two groups of women for seven years? Maybe those who were fasting has been doing for 7 years 100 other things and that was the reason they didn't get cancer? But "Fasting cures cancer" looks like a great headline. Clicks are coming.

Will we see in 3 months another article, also based on such vague research, claiming the opposite?

This kind of "science" and journalism contributes to general lack of trust in science. Eggs are bad, next week, eggs are good. Fat is bad. Fat is good. Cholesterol causes heart diseases. No it does not. Yes it does. Global warming? Phew, next week they will announce that global winter is coming. Doctors say vaccines are good and safe. Better be careful, those are the same guys who were paid to say that margarine is healthy and butter not, while it turned out the opposite...

</comment><comment><USER65> Fasting is anorexia rebranded for tech bros.

Christ, some of these comments are indisguishable from pro-ana forum posts. "I starved myself for 7 days and I can think so clearly!"</comment>


Judge orders Uber not to use technology taken from Waymo - <AUTHOR> http://www.seattletimes.com/business/judge-orders-uber-not-to-use-technology-taken-from-waymo/ <comment><USER2> Levandowski is going to come out of this OK. He was doing self-driving years before Google.

As I've pointed out before, the whole LIDAR thing is a side issue. Google's LIDAR is another Velodyne-like spinning thing. Google's patented innovation is to make each scan beam slightly oval, which is marginally useful but not essential. Spinning 3D LIDAR units are research and prototyping tools. The future is either flash LIDAR or MEMS. Even Velodyne is moving beyond the spinning top thing.[1]

Here's a video with some images from Continental's flash LIDAR.[2] That's suitable for production cars. Continental is a big German auto parts company. They make other LIDAR products, vehicle cameras and processors, radars, GPS units, and most of the other parts needed for self-driving. Continental demoed a self-driving car in 2013. They have 1,300 people working on this. Uber makes a lot of noise, but Continental is going to ship product in volume.

Quanergy, a Silicon Valley startup, announced a flash LIDAR last year, but they seem to be having problems getting it out the door. A new startup, TetraView, got series A funding to develop a higher resolution flash LIDAR ("2K", they boast), using standard CMOS technology.[3] That, if it works, will bring the price down further while increasing the resolution, and will have other robotics applications.

So nobody really needs the Waymo LIDAR technology. For testing, you can buy a Velodyne, and for production, the flash LIDAR people are almost ready.

[1] [https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/velodyne-lidar-enters- the...](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/velodyne-lidar-enters-the-no-spin- zone/) [2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxy08YX0C8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxy08YX0C8w) [3] [http://www.tetravue.com/technology/](http://www.tetravue.com/technology/)

<comment><USER3> The LIDAR is just how Waymo realized some of its technology had been stolen. Presumably, they want to use discovery to find what else has been stolen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Some highlights from the injunction:

1\. "Waymo's patent theories are too weak to support any provisional relief."

2\. "By contrast, the trade secrets case presented by Waymo does warrant provisional relief."

3\. "Moreover, it has become clear that Waymo has both overreached in defining its trade secrets and made moving targets out of its asserted trade secrets to evade defensive arguments. Under these circumstances and on this record, no adverse inference that could be drawn in Waymo's favor would justify overlooking these problems, pretending that all 121 of Waymo's asserted trade secrets are valid, and enjoining defendants from using any of them so as to effectively halt Uber's self-driving efforts until trial."

4\. "Waymo is hereby granted further expedited discovery in aid of possible further provisional relief. Subject to the protective order, and upon reasonable notice, Waymo's counsel and one expert may inspect any and all aspects of defendants' ongoingwork involving LiDAR — including, without limitation,schematics, work orders, source code, notes, and emails — whether or not said work resulted in any prototype or device."

EDIT: one more I forgot, which is interesting:

5\. This order, however, threatens no sanctions against Levandowski. It simply directs Uber, a private employer, to do whatever it can to ensure that its employees return 14,000-plus pilfered files to their rightful owner. If Uber were to threaten Levandowski with termination for noncompliance,that threat would be backed up by only Uber's power as a private employer, and Levandowski would remainfree to forfeit his private employment to preserve his Fifth Amendment privilege. No binding case law holdsthat the Fifth Amendment prohibits such actions by private employers. In short, in complying with this order,Uber has no excuse under the Fifth Amendment to pull any punches as to Levandowski.

Basically, if Levandowski refuses to turn over the documents, Uber is forced to fire him, which means the $250,000,000 they already gave him goes up in smoke.

<comment><USER5> I think Waymo laywers are very happy with the expedited discovery ruling and the order that Uber must make every effort to compel the return of the 14,000 files.

This might not have been the bombshell ruling against Uber that they were hoping for, but it sets up that bombshell ruling if they can actually find the evidence with this new discovery.

<comment><USER4> I disagree. It's only good if they find something, which to me is doubtful given the fact they didn't find something already, and given the fact that the judge didn't issue a single injunction against Uber for trade secrets. As far as I can tell from reading the injunction, there wasn't a single case of a trade secret from those documents making its way into Uber's technology.

The fact that none of the technology made it into their Lidar designs makes it hard to believe that anything will be found. The idea that somehow discovery will determine there was something stolen seems pretty low at this point.

I agree that the order to compel returning the documents is interesting, and to me potentially the most "damaging" if they are forced to fire Levandowski.

<comment><USER6> > The fact that none of the technology made it into their Lidar designs makes > it hard to believe that anything will be found.

This is a bit confusing. If none of the technology made it into their designs, why was a manufacturer delivering a part proprietary to Google to them? That's my understanding of what kicked this whole thing off, Google being accidentally CC'd by a manufacturer for a purchase of a part that nobody else should have known about. If that's correct, while it doesn't _necessarily_ mean that Google tech was utilized in some integral component, it does signal that they weren't averse to using that tech in _some_ fashion.

I'm left wondering if the real meat of this case is to be found as Google examines the hardware, which it sounds like they've now been given the go ahead to do.

<comment><USER7> I don't work in hardware, but a friend of mine who does said that it's not really all that surprising for two companies to end up with similar designs if they are working on a similar problem AND are using the same supplier. The supplier is providing their own expertise and some of that expertise comes from working with other customers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Link to the full injunction text: [https://www.scribd.com/document/348409551/Waymo-Uber- Injunct...](https://www.scribd.com/document/348409551/Waymo-Uber- Injunction#from_embed)

<comment><USER9> "3 pages available to preview"

Man I hate Scribd. Why does anyone use it? No, I do not want to download your app to read a PDF, and I don't understand why CNBC published it through your service.

<comment><USER10> I don't get it either. CNBC has webservers and presumably some sort of in- house or external CDN. Why host on Scribd?

<comment><USER11> Embedding

<comment><USER12> Haven't all modern browsers embedded PDFs natively for ages, now?

Eg, Chrome in 2010 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_version_history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_version_history)

Firefox in 2012 [http://news.softpedia.com/news/PDF-JS-and-Download- Manager-P...](http://news.softpedia.com/news/PDF-JS-and-Download-Manager- Panel-Pushed-to-Firefox-15-267154.shtml)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This ruling was actually relatively good news for Uber, it could have been worse. It's only a partial preliminary injunction, they can still continue working on self-driving technology.

<comment><USER14> Whether they can continue with what they have remains to be seen. They are and always have been and probably will be in the future at liberty to start from a clean slate, so they're free to 'continue working on self-driving technology'.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> How do they go about enforcing this?

<comment><USER16> That's my question. Given that Uber claims they weren't _using_ the technology... how can you tell if they stopped? Just forbid them from using LIDAR altogether?

<comment><USER17> This is answered in the actual injunction document.

Uber is required to perform a thorough accounting of any design aspects stemming from the trade secrets noted in Waymo's filing. Uber is required to interview all individuals who worked with Levandowski to circumvent Levandowski's usage of the 5th Amendment self-incrimination protections. If Uber can't compel the information the court seeks, it must use its full authority to obtain it. Judge Alsop explicitly says Uber must terminate any uncooperative employee.

A Waymo attorney and an expert get to audit Uber's self-driving technology to identify aspects of the trade secrets annotated in Waymo's filing.

The enforcement is that if Waymo's expert and attorney unearth any lack of compliance by Uber, they can face Contempt of Court charges. Since Waymo is pursuing this case zealously, I expect this to be enough incentive for Uber to follow the court order in good faith.

In the past, Uber has complied with discovery motions even when the results embarrassed the company, e.g. the executive venting: about how he wishes he could dig up dirt to discredit a journalist.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> How come Levandowski isn't sued for stealing data? Doesn't what he did to Google considered stealing? I would have called for police investigation for someone so prominent stealing my company's data.

<comment><USER19> This was mentioned in the HN discussion[1] about the other order, which denied enforcing arbitration. There are two separate lawsuits, one against Uber (this one), and one against Levandowski. Because of his employment agreement, the Levandowski suit is done through arbitration rather than a court. Uber moved to consolidate the two suits and force the combined suit into arbitration, but the court denied the motion.

Also, the court also referred the case to the U.S. Attorney for a possible criminal investigation, so depending on what they decide Levandowski could come under criminal charges also. (He is already taking the 5th.)

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14321044](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14321044)

<comment><USER18> Thanks, I didn't read that properly. Hopefully truth will come out of criminal investigation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Is this enforceable? Or is it more of a "If you get caught using it in the future more legal ramifications?"

<comment><AUTHOR> Violating a judgment would invite contempt proceedings, which means huge fines for Uber and possible prison for all involved senior executives.

<comment><USER21> Sure, theoretically they are required to follow this and the consequences for not doing so are dire. In practice, however, is there any way for the judge to know if Uber is complying, or does this essentially rely on the honor system?

<comment><USER5> Look at the new discovery that the Judge is allowing Waymo. In effect, Waymo gets to look at all internal LIDAR development at Uber to see if they can find their trade secrets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Didn't Uber pay like $680,000,000 for this technology ?

<comment><USER23> Paying for stolen goods doesn't make them your property.

<comment><USER24> Uber should start a suit against Levandowski.

<comment><USER25> Uber should have uncovered this during due diligence. I'm not sure if they can even sue Levandowski at this point.

<comment><USER26> How can you although? Show us what is on every hard drive you ever owned? Uber doesnt have access to googles internal security logs.

<comment><USER27> The court order says that Uber was talking with Levandowski about buying his company _while he was still working at Google_:

> Meanwhile, emails between Uber executives on January 12 and January 13 > showed they had prepared a document titled "NewCo Milestones v5" for > Levandowski to review in advance of a meeting the following day.

He didn't quit until the 27th. If you're poaching someone highly-placed off of your competitor you either have a plan for how you'll prove that they _didn't_ steal secrets or (like Uber) you get court orders to expose all your files.

<comment><USER26> In general although, how do you deal with this kind of prove a negative situation?

Hire high level employee X, talking while they are employed with your competitor or not, how do you prove they don't 'copy files' or bring documents with them to their house? Search their house? How do you know they didn't put them in some secret location?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> if this is all legit, it baffles me that this guy thought he would be able to 'download' anything and take it and not be caught... weird

<comment><USER29> IME, a lot of engineers, especially high-level ones, don't realize the extent to which IT monitors their actions. They know the technology is there but think it's being used on "other people", and that just because their computers are less locked-down, to allow for installing dev tools, that means they're less-surveilled.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> The title screams bias and misinformation. It presumes Uber took technology from Waymo, which the judge rules against by stating that "Waymo's patent theories are too weak to support any provisional relief" and "it has become clear that Waymo has both overreached in defining its trade secrets and made moving targets out of its asserted trade secrets to evade defensive arguments".

<comment><USER31> Are you an Uber employee? Curious for full disclosure.

I'm an Alphabet employee but not one working on Waymo-related projects, nor am I a lawyer who feels qualified to comment on this situation. Wish Groklaw was still around to interpret these rulings for us :(.

<comment><USER32> What a strange thing to ask for a completely normal comment. Like it's unthinkable that someone other than an Uber employee would say it.</comment></comment></comment>


Beautiful CSS Flexbox Example in ClojureScript - <AUTHOR> http://re-demo.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/#/h-box

<comment><USER2> Appreciate your post. I am the author and it was certainly a labour of love to get it just right.

I could equally describe the experience as a joy, especially considering how much more difficult and complex it would have been to achieve the same thing in pure JS.

I certainly feel that ClojureScript + React/Reagent is a killer combination for web development.

Am happy to answer any re-com questions here, or hear of any issues or suggestions.

<comment><USER3> I've been playing with re-com for a couple of days, and am very impressed so far. My only complaint is that there is no mailing list or forum, and none of the commiters show their email addresses. I have a few issues with re-com, but haven't found a place to discuss them. What do you suggest?</comment></comment>


Richard Feynman Put Himself on the FBI's Do Not Call List - <AUTHOR> https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2016/dec/13/richard-feynman-put-himself-fbis-do-not-call-list/ <comment><USER3>
      an unnamed colleague citing his hobby of cracking safes
      at Los Alamos as evidence he was a "master of deception
      and enemy of America."

There is speculation that it was his ex-wife, Louise Bell: [http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/07/11/smeared-richard- fe...](http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/07/11/smeared-richard-feynman/)

<comment><USER4> Feynman's willingness to think more objectively than most about the world and share his thoughts likely resulted in a long list of enemies, people that desired to control him, etc.

Most obvious person to report it was the head of security at Los Alamos; Feynman told them about his exploits and actively tested the security.

<comment><USER5> "Never pen test without permission."

<comment><USER6> Been there. Done that. Suffered the consequences.

<comment><USER7> Don't leave us hanging! What happened ?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> On a related note, there seems to be a nearly infinite demand for stories related to Feynman in HN in particular[1] and internet in general. No wonder, his colleagues like Schwinger and Gell-Mann were pissed off as they didn't receive anywhere close to that kind of attention[2][3].

[1] [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=feynman&sort=byPopularity&pref...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=feynman&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

[2] [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=gell- mann&sort=byPopularity&pr...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=gell- mann&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

[3] [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=schwinger&sort=byPopularity&pr...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=schwinger&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

<comment><USER9> Feynmann is not a popular figure just because of his contributions to physics.

I'd say his popularity stems from how engaging a person he is: It's hard to watch Feynmann talk about something he's interested in (and he's interested in _everything_!), and to see that twinkle in his eye, and not be gripped by whatever the subject is. There's something special about his childlike wonder at the way things work.

All of that, and he's absolutely astoundingly intelligent, articulate, and friendly.

This video where he's asked how magnets "work" [youtu.be/ewcJR2nqDV4 - 7:30 long, from The Fantastic Mr. Feynmann] is amazing. He takes seven minutes to respond to a question. He doesn't even answer the question properly, and yet it's the perfect response. Even the most science-averse of my friends are able to enjoy watching that video.

And that's just the science bit! He's also done crazy and interesting things: Cracking safes in Los Alamos that had research documents on the atomic bomb and leaving taunting notes. He used to work off napkins in topless bars. He was just an all-round interesting guy.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that neither Schwinger nor Gell-Mann have these same qualities.

<comment><USER10> While different in personality from RPF, Gell-Mann's range of interests and abilities is even more inspiring. I can't locate it now, but I recall the anecdote of him learning Swahili on the plane ride over. Here's a profile of him:

[http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/08/magazine/the-man-who- knows...](http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/08/magazine/the-man-who-knows- everything-murray-gell-mann.html)

Or check out his Santa Fe homepage to appreciate his incredible range of interests.

[http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~mgm/Site/Front_Page.html](http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~mgm/Site/Front_Page.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Little known fact, but all you have to do is ask not to be contacted, watched, etc. - and the FBI will respect your request and note it in your file.

(Okay, ending sarcasm.)

Find it hard to believe they stopped, reads more like a note saying to stop keeping "official" records.

<comment><USER11> The sad thing being how much harassment essentially went on and how pointless it was given that the soviets detonated a bomb just a few years after it was invented. I don't know what else you can do, there must I assume be some security measures but it only seems to make things marginally harder for proper Russian intelligence agents and informants to get information out. I guess it does increase the barrier-to-entry so that not just any 3rd world intelligence agency can steal nuclear secrets.

By cyber-security standards the physical and information security measures taken during the Manhattan project were pretty amazingly pointless. They did a good job of keeping the process of enriching uranium secret from the regular folks that worked on it, but that just kept them from going home and talking to their friends.

The scientists working at Los Alamos knew an incredible amount about what was going on and therefore represented single points of failure.

If a spy had been able to infiltrate Oak Ridge, granted they wouldn't have gotten to see many steps of the process but the fact that lay-people didn't know what they were working on didn't mean much.

The main security for the project probably lay in the fact that economically no other nations involved in WW2 could have attempted such a program, even with day-by-day updates of exactly what we were doing. By the time the kinks were worked out it would have been way too late for any other entities to attempt to copy it.

<comment><USER12> > The sad thing being how much harassment essentially went on

The past tense implies the intelligence community is better behaved now. The old threat was communism, now it's terrorism.

<comment><USER13> Somebody has to employ all those high-school bully's. Else they would be standing at crossroads, doing stick-ups.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> You would think being part of the Manhattan Project would have put him under more intense scrutiny from the FBI, during the Red Scare.

The FBI even mention him as an associate of Oppenheimer in the notes showing his 'do not bother' request.

<comment><USER11> The first soviet atomic bomb was detonated in 1949[1] so this was nearly 10 years after that fact.

His association to Klaus Fuchs[2] was probably more suspect than Oppenheimer (despite how suspicious they were of him) given he was allegedly an actual spy (I say allegedly because I know how suspicious of the FBI people are around here, and not without reason in some cases).

According to the Feynman Bio I'm reading right now [3], Fuchs was said to have joked (when Feynman wasn't around) that he would be the most likely person to be a spy because of how often he left the base alone to visit his sick wife (or so he said).

[1] [http://www.atomicheritage.org/history/soviet-atomic- program-...](http://www.atomicheritage.org/history/soviet-atomic-program-1946) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs) [3] [https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Life-Science-Richard- Feynman/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Life-Science-Richard- Feynman/dp/0679747044)

<comment><USER15> "I say allegedly because I know how suspicious of the FBI people are around here"

Fuch's was caught by MI5, not the FBI. And he gave a detailed confession even before he was arrested. So there isn't really any reason to be suspicious of his conviction.

<comment><USER16> Feynman himself casually notes Fuchs as "the fellow who turned out the be the spy", and despite their friendship never offered an skepticism about the conviction.

<comment><USER17> Fuchs confessed before he was prosecuted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Check out the FBI file:

[https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of- america-10/fbi...](https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of- america-10/fbi-files-on-richard-feynman-1165/#file-4617)

The sheer amount of black ink, rubric, marginalia, stampage, redaction, etc, is a reminder of how deeply dysfunctional (and even hellish) bureaucracies can be. It may not have been _possible_ for the FBI to stop investigating Feynman without orders from the top.

</comment><comment><USER19> Fun Feynman fact: He was friends with an artist who, among other things, built a home in the hills of Altadena (an LA suburb) using discarded construction materials from the area, and that was predominantly not enclosed, as he had claustrophobia from being smuggled out of Armenia during the genocide - <USER2> think in a coffin?

Wikipedia has some of the information: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jirayr_Zorthian#Friendship_wit...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jirayr_Zorthian#Friendship_with_Richard_Feynman) , but if you go to the ranch the people there will tell you more.

<comment><USER20> That sounds more like a Zorthian fact than a Feynman fact.

<comment><USER19> Eh. The people in your life are pretty significant, and I doubt most people here have heard of Zorthian. For example, it's both a Tesla and Twain fun fact that they were buds, but I don't have to explain who either of those people are.

Edit: Still, fair critique.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I find that nostalgic personalities such as Feynman imply that the authorities of the past were not only evil, but conquered, and therefore, sublimated into the dominant mythos of progress.

In the post-9/11 world, this mythos is central to the authority of authority: "See? We no longer run overt, clumsy, and brutal humint! We learned our lesson, thanks hippies!"

Everyone nods in agreement and dismisses the people saying, "Covert sigint just got cheaper, that's all."

<comment><USER11> I don't dispute that they have done harm, but I think everyone is getting a little ahead of themselves. We have no idea what it is like (yet) to live in a true police state but judging by the average perception on HN right now about the FBI, CIA, NSA we're getting shaken down in the street daily and spied on in our homes.

The truth is much more nuanced and these are massive bureaucracies and if you average the effects of everyone in them and all that they do I honestly don't know whether its a net positive or negative. The problem is if they do something right, we'll likely never know and we can never really know what our lives would be like if they didn't exist.

We should fight injustices and be vigilant but I think people understate the good and overstate the bad. If I could wave a wand to do away with them here and now I wouldn't know what to do, but I know I wouldn't do it without question.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Some jokes are being made in the thread how you can extricate yourself from surveillance by the FBI by asking not to be watched, but seriously, what is this list?

The article mentions that he "has stated he does not desire to be interviewed at any time by FBI Agents relative to matters of any kind". Why would the FBI reach out to him in the first place? I don't know about mr. Feynman but I don't regularly get contacted by the Dutch FBI (which is what anyway, the KLPD? I don't even know) for interviews, unless I did something wrong or when they think I know something to help further an investigation. I can hardly imagine anyone (let alone mr. Feynman) witnessing crimes (especially ones that warrant FBI investigation rather than a local police office's) that it was becoming a real burden for him to keep giving interviews.

<comment><USER23> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I read the title as Richard Stallman and I was super confused.

<comment><USER25> So did I - although it does sound like something Stallman would try to do.

<comment><USER26> I think that Stallman is so completely transparent and articulate about his views and so totally outer field that I think he is unlikely ever to be close to an investigation into (say) documents being leaked or anything.

<comment><USER27> Or Stallman has devised the perfect cover, only time shall tell

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Slightly off-topic, but the magnifying-hover feature on the scanned images is pretty useful and done wel without being overly intrusive to the design.

</comment><comment><USER29> I wonder who else is on this list?

</comment><comment><USER30> I don't understand how this list works - you can just go and ask FBI not to be interested in you, and they whitelist you from their investigations?

<comment><USER31> Doesn't make sense, if it was simple as that I think virtually _everybody_ would do that, because 9 out of 10 when the feds (or any other police body) is interested in you, it's not a good thing (for you, might good for the society)...

<comment><USER30> Exactly; that's why I don't understand what's up with this list.</comment></comment></comment>


Edge detect ad nauseam - <AUTHOR> http://www.boldport.com/blog/2015/4/3/edge-detect-ad-nauseam

<comment><USER2> Hello. Thanks mafuyu for posting this! I run Boldport, and I could use all the business and advice I can get. So head over to [http://boldport.com](http://boldport.com) and tell me what you think ;)</comment>


When the French clock off at 6pm, they really mean it - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/money/shortcuts/2014/apr/09/french-6pm-labour-agreement-work-emails-out-of-office?CMP=twt_gu <comment><USER2> I don't know french, but based on some comments that I see on Guardian and other websites, looks like this report is false. This is not a law, but a union agreement, and it talks about 11 hours rest per day for executive and highly skilled staff. And it talks about "allowing" people to switch off their phones and not respond in non-working hours. This way employees cannot be blamed for not responding in those hours. Doesn't sound as exciting as what Guardian is reporting, obviously.

</comment><comment><USER3> This system has obvious flaws, the first of which that comes to mind is how someone would respond to true catastrophes like a site going down for other businesses which are mission critical or represent critical infrastructure.

But... what if this was a rule that only 10% of employees could be 'on call' at any given time.

This could result in more independent contractors which probably isn't positive, but what are the other benefits and detractors of a system like that?</comment>


Major update to Swift collection semantics in beta 3 - <AUTHOR> https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/Swift/Conceptual/Swift_Programming_Language/index.html

<comment><USER2> Thank goodness! They have released PDF versions of the Language Guide and Reference!!!</comment>


Raising startup capital for the 1st time - <AUTHOR> http://www.shopify.com/blog/5213482-7-tips-on-how-to-raise-startup-capital

<comment><USER2> This list has little insight and should be obvious to anyone looking to raise capital. If you didn't know these things already you probably are not in a position to raise funding.

<comment><AUTHOR> You'd be surprised how little _some_ people know as they begin preparation for their first fundraise.

As I mentioned in the title - this is for people looking to raise capital for the 1st time. A beginners 'tip list' sort of thing.

Sorry it didn't provide value for you...</comment></comment>


Spies in the Xerox Machine (1997) - <AUTHOR> https://electricalstrategies.com/about/in-the-news/spies-in-the-xerox-machine/ <comment><USER2> I started the network forensics security contest at DEFCON (separate from the wall of sheep contest that I believe is still running) and one of my favorite challenges was recovering printer traffic. The contest was a race to see who could finish X number of challenges first with each round getting harder. The last puzzle was a TCP dump of MiTM'd printer traffic. I intended for them to carve out the document data and feed it into Gutenprint, but in the name of speed they speed over to Fry's, shoved a piece of promo paper into a printer and powered it on, then replayed the TCP traffic to the printer. Probably one of my favorite solutions. About an hour later they also did it via Gutenprint just to show they could.

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery- Is-Y...](https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Your- Printer-Spying-on-/)

"Most color laser printers and color copiers are designed to print invisible tracking codes across every single printed page of their output. These codes reveal which machine produced a document and, in some cases, when the document was printed or copied."

FYI

Edit:

List of Printers Which Do or Do Not Display Tracking Dots [https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do- not-d...](https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display- tracking-dots)

I'm going to have a close look at my monochrome laser printer output, just in case.

<comment><USER4> Monochrome laser output will also be fingerprinted by the uneven toner pattern from wear on the drum and the toner transfer roller.

<comment><USER3> I've heard this (well, about the drum, but the transfer roller?) but it's incidental and can be changed by changing the drum, and is not an intentional tracking device that encodes date of printing, device ID etc. such that some DB can be used to track it.

<comment><USER4> Transfer roller, of course. Note how print quality degrades as you get towards the bottom of a toner cartridge on a cheap printer, the consistent pattern of print artifacts.

>changed by changing the drum

Sure, it depends on the threat model. If you're producing many documents some time apart, replacing drums and cartridges could be a purchase signal in of itself. If you're doing something very risky, like publishing nuclear weapon plans, ISIS recruitment flyers, or Clinton foundation invoices, then leaking just a few bits of identifying information could be life-ending. Cf [https://www.gwern.net/Death-Note-Anonymity](https://www.gwern.net/Death-Note- Anonymity)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > _This drawing is from patent 3,855,983, issued to Zopppoth[sic] in 1967 for > a miniature surveillance camera._

Trying to look up that patent number[1] finds something completely unrelated: A magnetic sensor device in the ignition system for an internal combustion engine, awarded to Robert J. Valek at Motorola, Inc. Even a search of the inventor's last name[2] finds nothing by the last name of Zoppoth or Zopppoth (with 3 p's as shown in the caption).

I'm guessing that either there was a typo in the article, or that the Xerox patent was never issued and the number was reused by someone else (can that happen?), or that secret U.S. patents have a different numbering system that duplicates real U.S. patent numbers.

[1] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3,855,983.PN.&OS=PN/3,855,983&RS=PN/3,855,983)

[2] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Zoppoth&FIELD1=INNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT)

<comment><USER6> The article calls it a "secret patent," so I wouldn't be surprised if they got the number wrong—assuming there even is a number.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I worked at Xerox for over 20 years and never heard this story. Not surprising, though, there were lots of little groups working on things they never spoke of.

<comment><USER8> I also worked at Xerox. They were good at keeping their employees in the dark. Xerox believed in keeping as much information secret as possible, even from customers who needed (and were entitled to) technical information about the equipment they leased at exorbitant cost, like the 9700 laser printer (120 pages/min, two-sided in 1979).

They did such a great job of focusing on copiers, that they blew their lead in the major technologies of the century: GUI, mouse, laser printing, LAN.

Every new hire gets a copy of "The billions nobody wanted", the story of Chester Carlson, his invention of xerography, and how many companies turned him down. It's ironic that they repeated the same mistakes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> If printer security interests you or you want to do some testing on your own devices. Check out PRET[0].

[0]Printer Exploitation Toolkit - The tool that made dumpster diving obsolete. [https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET](https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET) [http://hacking- printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_...](http://hacking- printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_Testing_Cheat_Sheet)

<comment><USER10> I wonder if some good samaritan could use this to make a canned solution to automagically turn off every HP "DIRECT" wifi that's unused 99.99% of the time and pollutes the wifi spectrum in any residential setting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Any person or company using US hardware/software should understand that it may have been tainted at the request of the US state, and that for the manufacturer/provider of the hardware/software to disclose said tainting is also illegal.

<comment><USER12> I'd be very interested to see a list of countries that didn't have equivalent powers. What vendors and supply chains do you imagine are immune from this problem?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Printers are still a cybersecurity issue, it's incredible how often we still see printers on the same LAN as workstation given the horrible state of their security, and that random people are expected to come to "fix" them regularly...

</comment><comment><USER14> Context: It's published there as of 1997 but it's about CIA spying technology used in 1963, 57 years ago!

<comment><USER15> I recently watched Enemy of the State which came out in 1999 and the level of technology and spying was really surprising to me. I wonder how many people at the time thought the government's ability was overstated for the movie.

Also kind of crazy they were using "terrorism" as a guise for invading our privacy even before 9/11.

<comment><USER14> The Hollywood films almost by rule distort the real details, but some scripts do manage to pass the general idea.

Never trust the Hollywood _details_ but if you are interested in any topic, search the books (or the news articles) that did the research based on the primary sources.

If you're interested in the history of older "spying" _technology_ (as in NSA) see the books of James Bamford. Or, more recently, search for coverage of what is known due to Snowden.

Some details emerge much later, e.g. about the quality of the pictures achievable from the satellites in sixties (i.e. more than 50 years ago):

[https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered- by...](https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered-by-great- feats-of-hackerdom-developed-at-a-mcdonalds/)

For CIA topics there are also some very good researched books. I'd say, the truth is much more fascinating than the movies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Now xerox machines store everything they copy to disk and listen on multiple open network ports. I bet some phone home for updates by default.

I wonder if they're all bugged these days.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here is another 2 stories on it. Not much there.

[https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the- xerox-m...](https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the-xerox- machine/)

[https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious- hidden...](https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious-hidden-spy- cameras)

I also remember reading about this in a book on the history of the CIA but I cannot seem to find its title right now.

If you are interested in some stories on spy satellites this is a great book:

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black)

And if you want to read about the British:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm)

I had family in this "line of business" in the 1960s in the USA. I asked if this was a true story, the answer was just a smile.

</comment><comment><USER4> Somewhat related, most modern paper currency has a pattern of rings on it that color photocopies will read, and refuse to copy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation)

</comment><comment><USER17> Spies in your printers and copiers

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code)

Spies in your screen

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_\(codename\))

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY)

Spies in your CPU

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine)

</comment><comment><USER18> There have been other HN threads about this story, perhaps with different articles as the submission. I can't find them though. Anybody?

<comment><USER5> I did a whole bunch of HN searches and couldn't find a previous submission. I did find a few people mentioning it in comments to other stories. Perhaps you're thinking of the similar incident in which the Soviets bugged the American embassy's typewriters[1]?

By the way, the earliest original reporting of the story I found is from Popular Science[2], Jan. 1997, "Spies in the Xerox Machine", page 70. (The Popular Science article has the same bogus patent number I mentioned in another comment.)

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774)

[2] [https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70](https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70)

<comment><USER18> Thanks for looking! You may be right but I have the feeling of two separate memories, one about the more famous typewriter story, and one about this Xerox thing. Oh well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Reminds me of a guy who hacked into Xerox machine (could have been Canon etc. really, can't remember anymore) they used to print exam questions in computer sciences faculty (~1995). And who then had a short but lucrative run of selling those questions to other students. He obviously got ratted out rather quickly and got expelled from college.

</comment><comment><USER20> As advice for everyone mentioning smart printers, many aren't aware that modern laser printers have their own version of applets, either with their own Java dialect, or some other form of proprietary language/native SDK.

They are proper computers, with everything that a CPU with network connection might be capable of.

</comment><comment><USER21> >>Next, they installed a camera in a machine at the main Xerox office in Webster. "When we developed the pictures, we found recipes and copies of music and cartoons and jokes and all kinds of things," Zoppoth says.

So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft. Translate this into today's tech. It would be like a CIA spook installing some code on a US website as a trial run before installing it on FSB.com. Did they have a camera in the photocopier during the office Christmas party? This is why any government actor in position to spy on anyone needs regulation and oversight.

>> Judging by the number of parts ordered from Xerox, Zoppoth believes that spy cameras may have been installed in photocopiers all over the world, to keep an eye on U.S. allies as well as enemies.

And today we know how that goes.

<comment><USER22> > So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft.

Xerox employees installed the rig on a copier at the Xerox workplace to test the camera they invented, and Xerox employees looked at the photos of the documents. This was before they turned the camera over to the "CIA spooks", who did not (according to the story) look at the documents in the US headquarters of Xerox.

I agree 100% with your points about the need for regulation and oversight, but this is not the incident that carries those points.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> When will this happen to keyboards?

<comment><USER24> About fifty years ago. The Soviets did it to the US:

[https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/](https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924)</comment></comment>


Urchin.js is going dark? No, it isn't. - <AUTHOR> http://analytics.blogspot.com/2009/04/urchinjs-is-going-dark-no-it-isnt.html

<comment><USER2> _...or when you are ready to start taking advantage of the improved functionality._

This, to me, has the tone of "WTF, why haven't you switched yet? This new thing is shinier and fancier!" only in a nice and polite manner.

<comment><USER3> What's wrong with that? I don't blame them for wanting people to upgrade. The new version is probably easier for them to maintain.

<comment><USER2> Nothing's wrong with it. It just contradicts the tone the rest of the article tries to lay out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This was kinda obvious. Why would Google just cut off its clients randomly? They aren't _that_ evil.</comment>


Amazon adds 50 Dash Buttons, says orders roll in twice a minute - <AUTHOR> http://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/amazon-adds-50-dash-buttons-says-orders-are-rolling-in-twice-a-minute/ <comment><USER2> "orders roll in twice a minute" \- does this mean 2 * 1440 = 2880 orders per day?</comment>


Blackout Leaves 300M Without Power in India - <AUTHOR> http://www.cnbc.com/id/48391001

<comment><USER2> That'd be like the entire USA being without power. Wow, it puts India's size into perspective.

</comment><comment><USER3> "We'll find out the reason and see that such kind of things are avoided in the future" is not exactly a reassuring quote from the head of India's Power Grid Corporation.

<comment><USER4> What would you like him to say, given that he probably does not know the reason at this time?

<comment><USER5> "I do not have all the answers as to how the failure occurred but I do know that we cannot simply band-aid over what ever problem is found. The root of the problem is not what part of the system failed today but the system itself. "

"Instead of delivering essential services to expand business and strengthen the private sector we have unfortunately created a power delivery system that favors only the constituencies of the political parties in our states. Power regulations are fragmented and compliance is difficult. We must urgently pursue reform in the same way that we reformed the license raj back in 1994. We must not let this crises be an excuse for inaction. The people of India deserve more. We must tap into foreign investment and our politicians must not fear change and reform."

<comment><USER4> Oh, so instead of a factual engineering update, you want to see him play politics. Gotcha.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> <http://biolitestove.com/homestove> comes to mind. Not a complete solution, of course, but any means of generating electricity is handy in such situations.

</comment><comment><USER7> No doubt this was an inconvenience to people trying to get to work on the metro, and the number affected (300 million) is staggering, but all the same:

 _About 40 percent of Indians, or 500 million people, lack electricity._

<comment><USER8> I think it's funny that the guy is stressing not being able to get to his programming job, when the offices are probably without power any way.

<comment><USER9> Well, most IT offices have generators there..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> No Big deal actually.

</comment><comment><USER11> In other news: Quality of software rises to new heights.

<comment><USER4> I see the joke you're making, but if you want to actually apply that humorous scenario to reality, what you have is a week of lost work, probably without any adjustment to the actual delivery date.

So, quality of software is gonna plummet in two weeks.</comment></comment>


How Many Foreign Words Do You Need to Learn? - <AUTHOR> http://twoweeklinguist.com/foreignwordspt1/ <comment><USER2> Your scrolling social sidebar is obscuring the text, BTW.</comment>


Ask HN: What is the easiest/quickest way to buy bit coin? - <AUTHOR>

I am wondering what is the easiest way to buy bit coin using a debit/credit card? <comment><USER2> I think a lot of it depends what currency you are using to buy the btc. For AUD I've heard positive things about [https://www.coinjar.com/](https://www.coinjar.com/), for USD I've heard that [https://www.bitstamp.net/](https://www.bitstamp.net/) is alright. I am not making any claims about either - just heard from others that they have been decent to use (quick, alright customer service).

This market list might help - [http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/list/](http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/list/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Most places won't take debit/credit card. You will have a much better time using your bank account for a transfer or wire.

If you're in the USA I suggest [http://coinbase.com](http://coinbase.com) for its ease. If not I'd look towards [http://bitstamp.net](http://bitstamp.net). [http://kraken.com](http://kraken.com) is also another decent exchange.</comment>