The benefits of note-taking by hand - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200910-the-benefits-of-note-taking-by-hand <comment><USER2> Cue the HN note-taking crowd....

From a retention/recall perspective, I think most people are enamored with finding the perfect note-taking method because we want to find the one method that optimizes both retention (memory) + recall (long term searchability) at the same time. It seems to me these two objectives are somewhat in competition.

(there's also comprehension and thinking but I see those as separate)

I think splitting up the two objectives makes more sense. Handwriting notes enhances memory formation, but is less optimized for searchability. Digital notes are great for long-term searchability, but are weaker for memory formation.

Why not have two systems instead of one? Just handwrite whatever you want to remember, and type whatever you want to stash away? It seems inefficient, but in multiobjective optimization we usually end up with Pareto optimality rather than a single point of optimality.

One might ask, how would I know a priori what to remember and what to stash? I personally prefer handwriting, so I'll usually go there first and if I need to stash it I'll retype it into Google Docs. That said, I'll hop on Google Docs first if it happens to be more convenient (like if I'm browsing and want to copy-and-paste something for long-term storage, or if I'm outdoors and all I have on me is my phone)

Meetings are a great candidate for handwriting notes -- and then discarding. You and I know that most meeting notes are throwaways. Despite that, I personally find that in complex multiparty meetings, I'm able to follow the flow better if I continuously take notes. Being able to remember who said what, and being able to summarize a meeting are all very valuable skills to have.

(p.s. with regard to memory, Socrates didn't even believe in writing -- he believed writing things down would weaken our memories in the long term. He believed that talking about things was a far superior way to form memories and to understand subjects deeply. He's not completely wrong about the role of discussion and disputation [emotional connection is a potent force in memory formation], but all the same I'm glad Plato didn't take to this thinking and actually wrote stuff down).

<comment><USER3> Used to fill a large size moleskin a month by hand, and for this sample size of one, the aid to recall from deciding what to write and processing it back out is remarkable.

So, of course, I've tried the Remarkable pad, as well as apps like Goodnotes on iPad that try to support handwriting while also supporting search. Goodnotes suited my needs better, as the Remarkable pad latency was too high, though I did prefer the feel of writing. Apple materials research needs to get their glass and pencil closer to this.

However, for recall, I find there's something about the physicality of a paper notebook that gives the facts a place to live.

With real x, y, and z dimensions in space, perhaps paper notebooks offer a fine grained version of the "memory palace" method of storing facts for in- memory browsing and recall.

Digital notebooks as well as digital books on Kindle lack the physical depth of the relevant page. It seems likely a visual "depth" indicator would assist recall of information in e-books. Unclear how that would work in digital notepads unless they had a fixed quantity of "pages".

Aside from this loss of physical memory mapping, iOS 14's handwriting to text is compelling. One gets to write notes out by hand, exercising that pathway, but what ends up on the page is real text. Haven't played with this long enough to have any opinion on whether this transformation defeats recall.

<comment><USER4> Can't you get a screen protector that makes it feel more like paper?

<comment><USER5> Yes, Moshi makes one that I have and like. It has the added benefit of adding some anti-glare to the iPad. The one I've heard the most praise for is called Paperlike: [https://paperlike.com/](https://paperlike.com/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > Researchers have found that note-taking associated with keyboarding involves > taking notes verbatim in a way that does not involve processing information, > and so have called this "non-generative" note-taking.

From the linked paper:

> Taking notes on laptops rather than in longhand is increasingly common. Many > researchers have suggested that laptop note taking is less effective than > longhand note taking for learning. Prior studies have primarily focused on > students' capacity for multitasking and distraction when using laptops. The > present research suggests that even when laptops are used solely to take > notes, they may still be impairing learning because their use results in > shallower processing. In three studies, we found that students who took > notes on laptops performed worse on conceptual questions than students who > took notes longhand. We show that whereas taking more notes can be > beneficial, laptop note takers' tendency to transcribe lectures verbatim > rather than processing information and reframing it in their own words is > detrimental to learning.

The mechanism here is probably that people are able to type faster, so typing lets them write down every word, whereas handwriting forces them to choose what to write down. The superior way of note taking by this logic is clearly typing on your phone.

But this has irrelevant for note taking as people on HN are likely to understand it: Writing down your ideas.

<comment><USER7> Note taking by hand implies making your hand draw the right shapes in the right sequence (& "verifying" them by reading) so in effect more of your brain in involved in actual processing. This may have a larger effect than reframing in your own words? [Speculation as I rarely took notes. Even the process of note taking distracted me!]

<comment><USER8> There's a "Price is Right" effect too: more processing = more engagement with the material = better, right up until you can't keep up with the lecture and then it falls apart.

It's not just a function of the average conceptual speed of the lecture, either, it's also a function of how bursty it is, and both are relative to what you already know and modulated by the quality of the presentation.

Taped lectures are a game changer because you can 2x over the slow parts and dwell on the bursts.

<comment><USER9> _right up until you can 't keep up with the lecture and then it falls apart_

And that's been my experience as a math student. Professors of advanced math courses tend to write very quickly for brief bursts and then pause to explain what's going on. The definition or proof they describe can often be subtle enough that you don't have much of a chance to understand it unless you've had the opportunity to preview the lecture notes before class.

Tragically, not every professor provides lecture notes in advance, and some don't provide lecture notes at all. Then if you're taking notes by hand you're taking a big risk that you might pause to reflect and miss noting a crucial step in the proof, leaving yourself baffled by what you wrote later on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It took a long time but I migrated my handwriting workflow over to a Remarkable tablet (v1, my v2 coming in a week or so).

It is quite good from a _writing_ perspective. I very much loved the tactile experience of a good fountain pen and nib on robust heavy paper. Remarkable is not that, of course, but a worthy experience in its own right. I am using it at this moment for some creative technical design work.

It is less good from a _reviewing_ and _rereading_ perspective. Even at the finest line width I have to work a little harder to read back through my poor script- something I much less frequently found problematic on paper. And page turning and locating earlier notes in a 20-50 page document (an amount I easily produce weekly, sometimes daily) is much less ergonomic than with paper.

The recognition does not work with my writing, but I can see that improving and that feature becoming killer in the context of more structured document authoring on the Remarkable, like filling out a templated form with gestures or short letter/word notes. They are not far from that capability.

And on the whole I have gotten to a place where the ritual is satisfying and useful. Not perfect, but paper and pen, however enjoyable, were not perfect either.

I have also recently become aware of a product called Papyr, which has two features of interest- a larger writing surface, and live synchronization with other Papyr devices and with software on iPad or desktop. It may be able to be a useful shared whiteboard.

<comment><USER8> > page turning and locating earlier notes in a 20-50 page document (an amount > I easily produce weekly, sometimes daily) is much less ergonomic than with > paper.

That's why I went with an iPad over Remarkable for note taking. I LOVE my kindle's e-ink display, but from what I saw Remarkable just doesn't let you zoom and pan through your notes and cross-reference with the same fluidity as a tablet, and I decided that was more important.

Hopefully they figure out how to get e-ink FPS up because I would love to have the best of both worlds.

<comment><USER11> What iPad apps do you use for note taking?

<comment><USER8> GoodNotes and LiquidText for lectures and papers respectively. There is a significant amount of path dependence in those choices.

Youtube reviews are probably the best way to get a feel for the current competitive landscape (e.g. GoodNotes vs Notability, MarginNote vs LiquidText).

<comment> hydroxideOH- I've been using a 2 in 1 Linux laptop for similar use cases, but the software options aren't amazing.

How well does the iPad handle hand recognition when using a pen? Does it accidentally scroll down PDFs or lag when you are switching from pen to fingers to zoom or pan?

<comment><USER8> The apple pen, touch recognition, palm rejection, and 120Hz + low latency are truly spectacular. I don't want to say flawless, but that's purely on principle, I can't think of a single screwup. Even my (employer's) macbook pro has a palm rejection failure about once a week, which is very good, but the ipad is better still. The base OS and websites have silky smooth scrolling, ditto for PDFs, even gnarly text book PDFs with scribbles everywhere. The pencil is super accurate, it has no problems hitting 1x1mm (or 2x2mm maybe) badges in LiquidText, and the size is perfect. It looks too big, but it's smaller than it looks. Apple did a good job earning their Apple Tax on this one.

<comment><USER12> Since you mentioned a 120 Hz display, I assume you're talking about using the second generation Apple Pencil on an iPad Pro? A sibling comment pointed out the much cheaper price of the regular iPad (which only supports the first generation Apple Pencil) so I thought I should chime in to say that my experience with the first generation Pencil does not reflect yours. Writing is laggy and imprecise (I can write legibly at about half the size on paper), charging with a Lightning connector is extremely awkward, and it needs to be done almost daily because the battery drains continuously [1]. I'm still a big fan of the iPad, but I gave up on the Pencil after two months and switched back to paper.

[1] [https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8231431](https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8231431)

<comment><USER13> Apple Pencil 2 is definitely a big improvement on the first one, primarily because of the charging mechanism - the first one was always either out of battery or I couldn't find it when I needed it, as charging it felt stupidly awkward and there's no way to attach it to the iPad. The second one just attaches and charged magnetically so it's always there and charged when I need it, making me much more likely to use it (and I do, all the time).

It does feel quicker and more accurate too though I wouldn't say that's a dealbreaker for the first gen (I also upgraded to a 12.9" iPad which I think makes a bigger difference for note taking etc, maybe because you end up writing a bit bigger than on paper so the extra space is useful?)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> 13 years ago I bought a Tablet PC (Motion PC) with OneNote and I bought a portable shotgun mic by sony.

BEST THING EVER. I got to write with the pen (Non-touch screen) and the mic recorded the audio for my graduate classes. It would recognize my writing and the audio fairly decently and I was living the dream.

I could never get anyone else to use OneNote with a mic, and I was a Systems Librarian at a College and taught all incoming freshmen. They had laptops and OneNote and no one used it.

</comment><comment><USER15> > Leonardo da Vinci wrote: "…the more minutely you describe, the more you will > confuse the mind of the reader and the more you will remove him from > knowledge of the thing described. Therefore it is necessary to make a > drawing … as well as to describe …"

I take my notes with the computer or tablet. But, I think with a paper and a pencil in my hand.

For design sessions my team uses simplified UML diagrams to understand the flow of data. Just talking and taking notes feels incomplete and, literally, difficult to visualize.

So, I agree with the post that hand writing is important, and it allows for graphics and other enhancements.

</comment><comment><USER16> Maybe a controversial opinion here, but;

I think note taking is seriously overrated. Sure some disciplines have things you need to know by heart, and having your own notes can help with that. But I rather use my brain power and attention to interpret and integrate what I hear during a lecture. Then use the literature if I need to refresh anything. For some people I feel that learning have been exchanged with note taking.

<comment><USER17> I agree. I used to fall asleep in classes taking notes. I ditched the notebook and started intensely focusing on the lecturer and trying to listen actively. Attention improved and comprehension skyrocketed. As long as what was covered was also found in printed material like a book, I was much better off.

It's n=1, but I didn't see any studies cited in the article either, just expert opinion and suggestions like the unweildly "Cornell method", which I have tried to use without success and never seen anyone else use.

It probably comes down to a lot of cognitive variation among people. In my experience, reviewing notes that I took during lecture has about zero productivity. They don't mean anything afterward, they just reflect a few bits and pieces that made it through eyes/ears, brain, and hand. I'd be better off with a stenographer's transcript or, you know, a book chapter I had read before hand.

<comment><USER18> If you IQ is high enough, note taking is often not necessary unless the material is very detailed or complicated. working memory and long-term memory both positively correlated with IQ. In the high school i went to, the smartest kids in my class were able to get good grades on tests without taking notes.

<comment><USER19> The problem is that probably everyone on HN thinks they fall into that category....

<comment><USER20> At least IQ is easy enough to measure. Whether or not that correlates to improved memory is a whole different question though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I take extremely detailed hierarchical notes all day, using software similar to org mode. Enough that it isn't feasible to use handwriting. But when it comes to working out a particularly difficult problem, there's no substitute for pen and paper IMO. I'd really like for the two to be better integrated, but writing with a stylus doesn't feel good to me.

<comment><USER22> I took notes on an iPad Pro for a semester in college. It worked well and there were some advantages. Infinitely expanding pages, moving notes around, pages only exist when they're necessary, etc.

But the thing that I missed most was the feel of pencil on paper. A stylus sliding around glass felt... bad and I was always distracted by it.

<comment><USER23> > _But the thing that I missed most was the feel of pencil on paper._

Has anyone tried Paperlike? I'm interested in the "feel" and how it affects display quality.

[https://paperlike.com/](https://paperlike.com/)

<comment><USER24> I have the first iteration of it and it is very very nice in terms of feel but I found it impacted screen quality more than I could tolerate. I believe this has improved in later versions and I'm somewhat tempted to try one of the current ones. I was really torn when I took it off, it does feel like paper and it even feels nicer with your hands not just the pencil, at the time it really damaged colour accuracy and also made the screen look like it was composed of rainbow crystals, it had a tiny prism effect on every element of the matte surface.

<comment><USER23> Thanks for sharing your experience with it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I went back to fountain pen + Rhodia journal while waiting for the perfect digital device to solve this.

I have an iPad Pro but the pen on the glass just doesn't work for me. Yes, I've tried with screen protectors but the feel is still not as good, the screen experience is seriously degraded, and they chew your expensive pen away.

The Remarkable seems very limited and expensive for what it is.

<comment><USER26> The tips of an Apple Pencil are an inexpensive consumable, for what it's worth.

That said, I've had the same experience, the iPad is lovely for sketching and calligraphy, but trying to write on it at a decent clip is an exercise in frustration.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> People are shaped by the tools that they use. There are significant physical changes in the brain when writing is learned for the first time compared to someone who never has learned writing.

It's possible this aspect can atrophy if physical writing is not practiced for long enough. And it's probable relearning it will 'reactivate' so to speak those pathways.

As a bonus handwriting on paper is an excellent archival medium, if stored properly.

Hard real-time access and retrieval with guaranteed future and backwards compatibility. No power or maintenance requirements. Guaranteed versioning is possible, immutability, and no licensing or region issues. Also operable in extreme cold.

Really a great solution if you need any of those features.

</comment><comment><USER28> Wow, for 30 years I thought cursive was a fluffy, largely-useless style technique. Didn't know it had practical uses for writing faster.

<comment><USER29> Cursive can be faster, if you have a slanted desk, ideally can slant the paper a bit and that you use a fountain pen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I'm convinced that it's impossible to properly learn most complex subjects from a lecture if you take notes on a laptop or (especially) don't take notes at all. What little knowledge managed to stick to my brain in school, I owe to taking copious handwritten notes, and then looking at them a few times later. You are _forced_ to understand, since you can't possibly write down everything, and the ease of capturing formulas and graphs is not to be underestimated either.

Speaking of which, it makes me wonder if the current aversion to taking handwritten notes people seem to have biases academic achievement towards some subjects where notes are generally not very useful (e.g. programming) and away from fundamental, formula- and graph-heavy stuff, e.g. physics and math, which you can hardly properly learn without notes at all.

<comment><USER31> In my experience, the parts from math and physics that required a lot of note taking were things more related to memorization instead of understanding, like formulas. Which, to be fair, seems to be the most of it, but anyway, there's a big difference from memorizing and understanding.

<comment><USER30> I've found it completely useless to memorize all but the most fundamental formulas without understanding their derivation. If I just memorize a formula, it's gone 3-6 months later. I need to understand how it came about if I want to retain it long term.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I am reminded of one of the Arthurian legends - King Arthur was given a sword _and_ a scabbard. The sword meant he could not be defeated in battle, but the scabbard prevented his mortal wounding. He prized the sword over the scabbard, and according to one legend left the scabbard behind to face his foe. He won the fight, but in doing so was indeed mortally wounded, and so met his end.

The sword is being able to remember, the scabbard to forget. It is the latter, the scabbard, to be able to forget, that is the more important. It is our filter for the reality we endure, and gives us both wisdom and comfort.

Wisdom, because it frees us from that which was unimportant; and comfort, because it unburdens us from those things which cause us pain.

<comment><USER20> That was interesting, but I am not sure how it is relevant to the topic at hand?

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Ever since the GTP-3 blog posts came out, every single article I read now makes me wonder- am I being fooled again into thinking a article was written by a human? Thanks u/adolos haha

</comment><comment><USER33> Would love to but my handwriting is awful. Don't know why. I write so cramped, perhaps I am holding the pen too hard. And my writing deteriorated over the years. Became almost illegible in university. Today my hand makes the least effort possible when I write. It is like it wants to drop the pen as soon as possible, but is forced to hold on by its conscious master. The keyboard is a bliss for me, it allows me to make structured notes effortlessly. But I still wish my relationship to handwriting was better.

<comment><USER34> The reason your handwriting gets worse is because the more you type, the less you write. You've fallen out of practice, and the only key to nice handwriting is to keep practicing and keep writing.

<comment><USER35> Agreed.

When I was younger and writing regularly, I could scribble fast and it would still be relatively neat.

Now I type all day, the few occasions when I do write just end up in a mistake-ridden scrawl.

I find I need to relax my finger grip and slow down, almost like I'm back in junior school.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Well, I disagree. I can't CTRL-F my paper notes, and I've got a ton of them. I need to digitize them, fortunately Google Lens can actually understand most of my scribbles, which is really impressive.

I do like sketching ideas on paper, can't do it as fast on a computer. I tried the Note 9 with its stylus, it's rather good, but the screen is too small.

<comment><USER37> Read that and wondered why you would struggle with moving the cursor one character forward. Then realized that I live in Emacs and that you had meant something else;)

<comment><USER26> This is one of the advantages of macOS, all the familiar GUI shortcuts live on the command key.

Not unrelated: Readline/emacs shortcuts work almost everywhere, which is to say that Ctl-F is forward in this very text buffer.

Not that I use it, but I do use Ctl-A and Ctl-E a fair amount.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I have taken over 10K notes in last 9 years and this is what I do -- I take a lot of hand-written notes and then I type down everything -- I believe it reinforces everything for me as I do the latter after a few days.

And thank you all for sharing such insightful comments.

<comment><USER39> Writing things down lets other parts of your brain know what's going on. I reach for my notebook a dozen times a day. Often just writing my question down makes the answer obvious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I must do it differently with a keyboard. I usually use bullet points for all note taking and I do process it, in fact have more time to process it and think about it because I spend less time drawing symbols. Must be a tough one to measure for a study.

</comment><comment><USER41> Bought both Notability and Goodnotes this week; Their macOS apps (I feel) really terrible. How do you folks use across mac and iPad. (Multiplatform is a big thing which I feel missing in both apps). Any suggestion? Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER42> Physical involvement is probably diffusing stimuli in many many parts of our brains. Because anything kinetic was extremely important to our lives. Probably creates symbolic memories coupled with musculoskeletal ones.

</comment><comment><USER43> I like the combination of paper and fountain pen, a bit thicker than normal, feels so much better than using the iPad :)

WFH left me doing less note taking, though. As I just audio record the important meetings.

</comment><comment><USER44> What ever happened to mini digital notepads? They were terrible but must have since improved. I want a stylus for my phone, and I want instant access to blank page as soon as I pull it out.

<comment><USER45> The Remarkable and the Supernote seem to fill that role.

I started obsessively looking at them earlier this week, and my conclusion is that they're not ready for prime time yet. The Remarkable software team is facing heavy criticism. The Supernote team is lauded for their responsiveness, but they don't have warehouses in Europe. Both companies accept preorders, not actual orders.

The ideas and hardware are there, but the products still need a lot of refinement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I take notes on an iPad using an Apple pencil. It seems to right balance between using the digital to organize and correct things and the cognitive benefits to handwriting.

<comment><USER47> Is the experience of using Apple Pencil with iPad very close to a real paper and pen? I'm tempted to get one myself.

<comment><USER48> It's pretty close. The tactile sensation of writing against paper versus glass is different.

I do wish pencil could be attached to the ipad easily without having to buy a special case though as they always tend to separate in my household and having to go hunt the stylus down makes it a lot less useful.

<comment><USER49> FYI Recent iPad Pro models have pencils magnetically attached and charged at once.

<comment><USER50> As well as the new, cheaper iPad Air coming in October.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> My typing is much faster than my handwriting, so if I am able to type I always opt for that. Slide changes when my notes for them are unfinished are really annoying.

<comment><USER52> If you believe the research, the slower speed of handwriting is a feature not a problem.

<comment><USER53> What about writing on a phone? I've been taking a lot of mobile notes and have found it to be a very convenient optimal point between slower, intentional writing vs digital format and accessibility.

<comment><USER31> you mean, typing/swiping on the phone? Also less useful for retention, I would say. It's only slower than typing on the computer because of the inconvenient keyboard size. But you are still just pressing buttons that are millimeters apart. While handwriting you have to actually make different shapes.

For me, optimal is to use something like OneNote, which you can use with a pen (iPad/Surface), and it recognizes what you handwrite

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> The article appears to conflate notetaking by hand versus notetaking on a keyboard with summarised notes versus verbatim notes.

There is a paradox here though, and I'm experiencing it myself as I review 10yrs of note books filled during the course of my PhD. I was hoping to find lots of forgotten treasures but I'm discovering more and more that anything I wrote down was also retained (more or less), of course anything not written down was lost to time. It's as if I may as well have been writing onto a ceramic tile with a drinking straw.

</comment><comment><USER55> personally I have a notebook and when learning new things or in meetings for building software. I write key things down. Just this alone allows me to remember more, recall things much later and provide structure for exploring and learning more. Plus old notebooks are kinda fun to skim through and look back on when updating a resume.

</comment><comment><USER56> The last time I actually wrote something down I couldn't decipher my own handwriting so yeah about that...

</comment><comment><USER57> This is why i got my self a remarkable tablet so i don't have to deal with paper anymore

</comment><comment><USER58> I recommend to use stone tablets...

</comment><comment><USER59> This is going to get downvoted but note taking is yak shaving. Don't waste any time thinking about optimal note taking.

</comment><comment><USER60> The year was 1970. Fred Flintstone time travelled to the future. Amazed at the efficiency of digital note-taking, he renounces hand-written notes. Fred Flintstone now uses his memory to remember actions that build things, not useless, easily searchable facts like fire is good.</comment>


Searching an accurate sentiment analysis tool - <AUTHOR>

Hi everybody,
I am looking for a sentiment analysis tool with high accuracy especially focused on short text such as tweets (but it's not mandatory). I searched a bit and I found a Quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-powerful-open-source-sentiment-analysis-tools
From their answers, I presume that there is no open source highly accurate system.
However, I haven't tried couple of promising systems yet:
http://www.sentimentanalysisonline.com/ http://tationem.com:8080/TexSIE/#working http://help.sentiment140.com/api
If you've used these tools above, I appreciate if you give some feedback.
I tried a bunch of tools (some of them are not open source software) such as: Semantria (https://semantria.com/api), Stanford CoreNLP toolbox, Alchemist (http://goo.gl/NpQ8jy) and RapidMiner.
I tested them on a twitter dataset that I manually labeled with 3 sentiment classes (neutral, positive, negative). These are the scores: http://goo.gl/YH1oJq (I haven't add RapidMiner yet, sorry).
AlchemyAPI seems arguably the best among them but the performance is not well especially when predicting neutral tweets.
For the next step, I would like to evaluate their score on SemEval Sentimental Analysis dataset (http://alt.qcri.org/semeval2015/task10/) but I expect that the trend will be same. I also examined the best system's paper of SemEval 2014 SA task: http://goo.gl/OYjqux. I haven't replicated it and evaluated its score on the same data yet, though.
I am a bit sceptical to use an off-the-shelf solution since I can't optimise them or I can't shape it for my needs. I would like to start with an open source tool and improve it pre-processing/post-processing or introduce some features and so on.
Sentiment analysis is very popular subject not only for research but also for market. So I'll be very happy to see some recommendations, ideas or directions.
Sorry for such a long post.
Thank you <comment><USER2> Im looking for the same thing, I hope you find the solution.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you.

Most likely, I am going to write it from scratch using features that other people find it helpful.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Berlin Startup Radio - <AUTHOR> http://berlinstartupradio.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey folks,

I'm really excited to have just launched the first episode of my bi-weekly podcast focused on the startup scene here in Berlin - I have some really interesting founders and other people doing great things here lined up to join in future episodes.

If you'd like to get involved - and you have something interesting to show, or discuss - then get in touch! I'd love to come and chat :)</comment>


Reverse Heartbleed: Test for vulnerable clients - <AUTHOR> https://reverseheartbleed.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> For what it's worth, we're not retaining any of the data that this tool finds, nor are we able to track this back to the vulnerable services (we're not logging clients' IP address or user agents).

If you can't find a vulnerable site, this one-line works for me as a test case (using a version or Ruby with an old OpenSSL):

require 'faraday'; Faraday.new.get '[https://reverseheartbleed.com/exploit_me/your_url'](https://reverseheartbleed.com/exploit_me/your_url')</comment>


We hacked a Tesla model 3 to all wheel drive and it's fantastic - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQFWzB9o_Jk <comment><USER2> Really looking forward to seeing more software hacks on Teslas. It restores what was so great about the height of American muscle cars: people with more knowledge go faster. The commoditization of performance is fantastic - and I love my model 3 - but I'm excited for the future when I can get a 2nd car for my wife and hack the hell out of our 3! If Tesla took me to court over it, I'd suspect the publicity would easily make up for the legal fees!

The model 3 is a lot like the iPhone - absolutely the way of doing things and impossible to go back - but we shouldn't forget the freedoms we lose, and the DRM we gain.

<comment><USER3> Having hacked cars running on public roads - how do you think that will impact road safety?

I'm all for people to control the hardware they buy, as long as they don't increase the risk of crashing into my car or running me over while crossing the street.

<comment><USER2> Typically the hacks amount to enabling a feature in the car that you would otherwise have to pay for. For example new BMWs come with seat-heaters in the car, but not available to be used unless an additional fee is paid to unlock them. A "hack" would be using the seat-heaters in the car you paid for without paying.

For things like custom driving software, usually people test that on closed race tracks, etc.</comment></comment></comment>


Redesigning a model of Tyrannosaurus Rex - <AUTHOR> http://saurian.maxmediacorp.com/?p=553 <comment><USER2> What a beautiful gigantic chicken!

These guys seem to be doing a lot of work to get their models right, nice project. The post about Torosaurus and Triceratops is pretty neat too: [http://saurian.maxmediacorp.com/?p=551](http://saurian.maxmediacorp.com/?p=551)

</comment><comment><USER3> I really hate redesign articles that don't show comparisons to the old model. Is it really that hard to get a picture of the old T-Rex?

</comment><comment><USER4> Wait, so T-Rex had feathers? Anyone got a better science link on that?

<comment><USER5> That is the current prevailing theory.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus#Skin_and_feather...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus#Skin_and_feathers)

"While there is no direct evidence for Tyrannosaurus rex having had feathers, many scientists now consider it likely that T. rex had feathers on at least parts of its body, due to their presence in related species of similar size."

It makes my wife sad when I remind her of it. You start imagining Dinosaurs acting like the birds you see outside and they kind of loose all their awesomeness.

<comment><USER6> > You start imagining Dinosaurs acting like the birds you see outside and they > kind of loose all their awesomeness.

You need to pay more attention to birds.

<comment><USER5> Watching nature shows, animals in the yard and pets, all animals are retarded.

I have crows hopping in the front yard waiting for bread. I have hummingbirds that come to the door and windows demanding more food when the feeders get empty or a little too old for their liking. You can watch parakeets and parrots dancing to music

These are not the actions that instill awe like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park would. All I see is dinosaurs doing the same things I see birds doing and they are now just as retarded as every other animal on the planet.

<comment><USER7> Now imagine those birds demanding food are carnivorous and large enough to bite off your head.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > T. rex now has sexy new feet based on newly discovered fossil trackways of a > closely related tyrannosaurid from Canada.

Do go on.

> Among the changes from the old model are a revised arrangement for tarsal > scutes and tapering toes that have significantly more padding to them.

Ooh la la!</comment>


Ask HN: Who's hiring interns this Summer 2012? - <AUTHOR>

I've had a tough time consolidating information on the most interesting startups who are hiring interns this summer. Let us know who you are and what position you're looking to fill! <comment><USER2> Khan Academy (Mountain View) is hiring:

Our mission is to provide a world-class education to anyone, anywhere. We already have millions of students learning every month, and we're growing quickly.

Our students answer over 2 million math exercise problems per day, all generated by our open source exercise generation framework (<http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises>, <http://ejohn.org/blog/khan- exercise-rewrite/>), and Sal's videos have been viewed over 117 million times. We're just getting started feeding this data we're collecting back into the product to help our users learn more ([http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how- khan-academy-is-using-mac...](http://david-hu.com/2011/11/02/how-khan-academy- is-using-machine-learning-to-assess-student-mastery.html)). If you're interested in data, analytics, and education, this is a dream gig.

Plus, it's one of the highest educational impact positions you can imagine. We're hiring all types of devs -- mobile, frontend, backend, whatever you want to call yourself. Big plans ahead.

<http://www.khanacademy.org/jobs>

</comment><comment><USER3> Hey all,

Stepout (formerly Ignighter), of Techstars 2008, is looking to hire PHP developers for the summer. We're based in NYC and offer a competitive salary and the opportunity to learn from the best.

More info @ www.stepout.com/jobs</comment>


Ask HN: Is there a Hacker News for Sustainable Technology - <AUTHOR>

Does anyone know if there is a Hacker News-like community site for hackers, technologists, and innovators passionate about Clean energy? <comment><USER2> As far as I know, there is a very active mailing list of climate change related stuff, which includes sustainable energy also. People here are mainly from academia.

firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER3> <http://www.reddit.com/r/RenewableEnergy></comment>


HP Announces The Veer, A Credit Card Sized webOS Device - <AUTHOR> http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2011/02/09/hp-announces-the-veer-a-credit-card-sized-webos-device/ <comment><USER2> I really wish "Credit Card Sized" would take into account all three dimensions. This thing looks 5 to 10 times bigger than a credit card! I was super excited clicking on this headline, waiting for an actual really serious innovation in small technology. Imagine a credit card with a touch screen and the Internet and apps and oh wow this is going to be so cool!

Oh. It's huge.

<comment><USER3> The point is, it's small enough that girls will want it because it will fit in their pockets.

<comment><USER4> But isn't a usable screen size a big factor when selecting a smartphone? I dread browsing on the credit-card screen or playing games or writing email or doing anything else that I do on my phone

<comment><USER3> This phone has a pull out keyboard, that means you still get have a similar area to write emails that an iPhone would with a virtual keyboard.

So, for communication and entering text, I don't see how this would be inferior to an iPhone unless you are only using a virtual keyboard. For browsing, you're correct. Scrolling up on a text message in landscape mode is nearly impossible on my iPhone. The vertical screen real estate is smaller than the width of my thumb.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Out of the major mobile operating systems, from a developers point of view, I find WebOS to be the most straightforward to develop for and as a result really enjoy writing code for it. This looks like a neat little device and I hope that the platform succeeds!

</comment><comment><USER6> It might be "the size of a credit card", but not a phone I'd personally want.

\- Surely the selling point of something sized like a credit card disappears as soon as you remember that, errr, it's about ten times thicker than a credit card.

\- I've never looked at my Blackberry and thought "man, I wish this could be shorter and thinner so that it leaves more space above and next to it in my pocket".

\- I have thought "I wish this could be thinner deph-wise, so that it doesn't stick out of my pocket as much". This phone actually looks deeper than Blackberry Bold, iPhone and quite a few Android devices, I think?

\- It looks... kinda weird. Maybe that's just because of it's unusual dimensions, and I would get used to it if it was my phone. But right now, it looks like a novelty phone designed with teenagers in mind - to me, at least.

<comment><USER7> i think it looks thick because of the small size in other dimensions. it would also feel thick due to the same reason.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> From what I have seen, it's a phone, not just a 'device'. Which is going to mean contracts and lock-in. Why couldn't this have been a small handheld 'device' - wifi-only (ala ipod touch) and priced low enough to flood the market with these? There's loads of verticals a device like this could likely dominate - good OS to build on, small form factor - throw in a low cost and let 1000 vertical apps bloom. But they chose yet again to chase the 'phone' market. _sigh_.

<comment><USER9> There's the Archos 28 [1], which is a little taller (3.9" instead of 3.25"), but thinner and lighter (9mm and 64g instead of 15mm and 103g), and costs less than $100. Runs Froyo.

The Veer's screen looks better, though, at 320x400 instead of 320x240.

[1] <http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_28it/index.html>

<comment><USER8> Thanks for that - hadn't seen the small one (had seen an earlier archos 7"? tablet).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think most of the phones are trending toward a larger display. I wonder what the appeal of a much smaller device will be compared to most of the industry moving to larger screens. In my opinion this device might not be well received because of that.

<comment><USER11> I look at the picture of the hand holding this device, and I wonder how the _hand model_ could select those icons, much less a big-fingered guy like myself.

<comment><USER12> It's a lot easier to guess where the user clicked when you have clickable regions defined.

An on-screen keyboard would be nasty at this size, but it has a Centro-sized (surprisingly comfortable, IMHO) keyboard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The headline made me envision a device the size (and shape) of a credit card, in which the entire front face was screen and nothing but screen. No bezel, no top and bottom non-screen black areas for buttons and mic, just 100% screen.

I instinctively figured that's what you'd have to do shrink a smart phone down to the size of a credit card, and I was kind of excited to click the link and see some real design innovation from HP of all places.

But alas, it wasn't to be. I should have known better. Same layout and form as every other smart phone, just smaller. Oh well, maybe Apple will make an iPhone mini one day.

</comment><comment><USER14> You know, every day I look at websites on my iPhone, and I think to myself, "You know what would make this phone better? If the screen were _smaller_! Yeah!"

<comment><USER12> You know there are people who don't look at websites on their phones and who don't find that feature particularly compelling. I am also happy with the size of my phone and really don't need a larger one.

<comment><USER3> I think a large push of the whole webOS platform was to make it much easier to optimize web pages for mobile devices, and I think this phone would be more than adequate for this. An intuitive interface makes it even better.

Also, this screen is larger than the blackberry curve's, and just smaller than the bold 2's.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Finally another smartphone with a small form factor. I postponed getting one myself because of the large sizes until the Sony Ericsson X10 mini was launched, and it's the perfect size for me.

</comment><comment><USER16> It's going to run Flash.

On a 2.6" touchscreen.

Flash sites, by and large, are designed for precise pointing devices on fairly decent-sized screens. There are going to be a lot of frustrated Veer users fat-fingering their way through Hulu.

<comment><USER17> tangent: isn't Hulu still blocking access from phone-like devices?

Agree that navigating flash sites on a screen this small will be frustrating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's small yes and I will not be surprise that the audience for that phone will be leaning toward the feminine crowd: I can see such small phone being a backup phone to put in a small purse. But as usual we just need to wait a couple months to see if the Veer will get some traction.

<comment><USER19> The Pixi has the same size screen. My wife has one and loves it. It's a great phone for the non power user. It handles emails, texts, calendar, and calls just fine. The browser works well, and she uses it to browse facebook all the time. The app store is limited, but she doesn't really mind, as she's not that heavy of a user.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If marketed correctly, especially towards females, this phone could be a decent success. None of the girls I know have ever complained about a phone being too small, only about phones being too big. For my friends at least, text messaging and size seems to be the first priority, with the other features coming second to those.

There's still a slight functional balance that needs to be met when making a phone small, however. But if you can make it small and keep it functional, kudos.

<comment><USER20> There seems to be an acceptance that Apple nailed the form factor for a smart phone when it launched the original iPhone.

I'm still unconvinced. I'd like a PMP slightly larger than the iPhone and I want my _actual_ phone to be a sim card in size. I want it in a wristwatch or my eye-glasses or my headphones (but not my shoe).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I wanted to write a logish comment about how much I like my $30 Sony Ericsson W205 and that I'll only replace it by an iPhone nano-class device but I found a comment which sums it all up, at the danger of being down-voted:

"It's an HP KIN is what it is."

(If this is the competition, Apple and Samsung have nothing to fear)

</comment><comment><USER22> I like the size and form factor, just wish they'd made the keyboard a kickslide like the X10 Mini Pro.

</comment><comment><USER23> No NFC chip in these new devices. That could be a deal breaker, if iPad ships before HP..

</comment><comment><USER24> that credit card needs to go on a diet

</comment><comment><USER25> Credit card sized from the standpoint of a Flatlander, perhaps...

I find it interesting, though. On my last visit to SF, I visited a small sushi restaurant and found it interesting that virtually _everyone_ had an iPhoone- like device out on the table. They didn't seem to be interacting with them, so I assumed it was because you can't comfortably sit with an iPhone-sized device in your pocket.

<comment><USER26> I do the exact same thing. It's not because I can't comfortably sit with an iPhone 4 in my pocket (sometimes I forget it's there), but it's because I can't comfortably remove and replace my phone in my pockets with a longer/wider phone. Thus, for easy access, it stays on the table.</comment></comment>


My Life as a Medical Guinea Pig - <AUTHOR> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/18/mental-illness-mr-big-and-me-my-life-as-a-medical-guinea-pig.html

<comment><USER2> I do some work in a clinical research center at a university. The amateur and unprofessional behavior displayed here angers me, and is certainly not universal across research centers. We have dedicated staff (both NPs and physicians) at our center who take our subjects' mental and physical well being very seriously. We would absolutely not tolerate investigators or staff making disparaging comments for example, or permit situations in which subjects were put in distress.

</comment><comment><USER3> For $10, I once did some kind of research study by the psychology department. I went to a lab, sat at a computer, and answered a quiz.

To this day, I'm certain there was some sort of test being done to prime me to answer questions a certain way, or something along those lines, but no one ever told me just what I was being the lab rat for.</comment>


Student may be jailed for posting scientist's thesis on web - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.nature.com/news/2014/08/student-may-be-jailed-for-posting-scientists-thesis-on-web.html <comment><USER2> "But two years later, in 2013, he was notified that the author of the thesis was suing him for violating copyright laws."

I'm assuming this means the author of the thesis would like not to be cited in any future research. Unfortunately,

"He says he does not want to 'put pressure on this person'. 'My lawyer has tried unsuccessfully to establish contacts with the complainant: I am open to negotiate and get to an agreement to move this issue out of the criminal trial,' he told Nature."

</comment><comment><USER3> Theses aren't open access?

In the UK if you're funded by a research council (like almost everyone is here), your thesis is normally open access because the public paid for it. Students are generally awful at disseminating theses and dissertations, but in theory it's available for anyone to see (if only through library services). Whether this extends to copying and posting to Scribd I don't know, but in principle I don't see why it would be an issue.

In some cases if your work has commercial applications you can request to withhold publication for 6-12 months, but ultimately it becomes freely available.

I assume if you have private funding then things are a little different, but most progressive universities are moving towards open access publication across the board. My department will pay the cost to get papers with 'gold access' or whatever they call it, it's not like we get any money from paywalling our research and it's more likely we get citations if it isn't.

<comment><USER4> > Theses aren't open access?

Not unless the thesis's author pays about three figures to make it open access. The only other option (without spending a ton of effort to fight the system) if you want to graduate is to let Elsevier charge people money, a tiny amount of which they will forward to you (if you bother to let them know where you currently live).

> In the UK if you're funded by a research council (like almost everyone is > here), your thesis is normally open access because the public paid for it. > Students are generally awful at disseminating theses and dissertations, but > in theory it's available for anyone to see (if only through library > services). Whether this extends to copying and posting to Scribd I don't > know, but in principle I don't see why it would be an issue.

In the US, most Ph.D.'s research is paid for with federal grants. I agree that they _should_ be open access, but I wasn't willing to pay even more just so that other people could read my thesis. Everything is in (non-open access) journals, so anyone who really cared about my research could just find it there. If someone really wanted to read my dissertation, I'd be more than happy to just send them the same PDF I gave Elsevier, and I suspect that virtually all other Ph.D.s feel the same way.

<comment><USER3> Sounds like it's a regional and/or departmental issue then. I initially thought it was just our group that would pay for Gold/Green access, but turns out it's uni-wide.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Does the plaintiff not realize that if this gets some media/internet traction his paper will be available everywhere.

<comment><USER6> obviously, that is the goal. ;d

<comment><USER5> Who would risk his reputation in scientific circles, to get known by the general public.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > _The student, who is currently studying for a master's degree in > conservation of protected areas at the National University of Costa Rica in > Heredia, refuses to reveal who is suing him. He says he does not want to > "put pressure on this person"._

Surprisingly magnanimous.

</comment><comment><USER8> Isn't a thesis public by definition? At least after some justifiable confidentiality period?

</comment><comment><USER9> Does anybody have a link to that paper?

</comment><comment><USER10> I wish someone read my thesis, let alone found it interesting enough to share it with their friends.

</comment><comment><USER11> Url changed from [http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biology-student- fa...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biology-student-faces-jail- time-for-publishing-scientist-s-thesis-on-scribd/), which points to this.</comment>


America on the Path to Lysenkoism? - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism <comment><USER2> Lysenko was an idiot who linked his failed theories to the failed communist system via Stalin and indirectly killed millions of Russians - it led directly to the downfall of the USSR via starvation. Many genomes have the ability to express silenced genes in adverse situations - mostly these are bacterial genomes, but all the higher genomes have this adaptibility that sometimes manifests. It is referred to as epigenetic alteration - more here:- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics)</comment>


I tried to fix it, and failed miserably - <AUTHOR> https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2020/03/04/annoyed/ <comment><USER2> > The people who can leave... do

I left the first job I got out of college because the place was so horribly broken. The code was awful, impossible to debug, broke almost randomly, and if a customer asked for a feature - even one that didn't make sense - they were promised they'd get it in a few days (which meant we'd be working nights and weekends… again).

I stuck it out for about a year - after a year I was the only person left who was there when I started. I followed one of the other exiting programmers to my second job. I was hoping it would be better. It wasn't. Similar problems: nobody could describe what they wanted, but they knew they wanted it by the end of the week. Just a year out of college, I was saddled with a huge legacy codebase and nobody else to help.

I stuck it out for another year before the constant criticism and ridiculously long hours got to me. But this was the late 90's, jobs were easy to find. I found another one. It was somehow worse than the first two. I had managed to refine some of my people skills and learned how to avoid a few of the landmines that the "business people" laid for unsuspecting programmers, but this third place had the same high turnover the other two had and in no time I was maintaining undocumented software whose intended function nobody even fully remembered.

I moved on to my fourth job in as many years. It was no better. We put together a desktop application and it worked pretty well, but they wanted us to port it to Citrix so that they could distribute it. They expected that to happen in a couple of weeks. Everybody but me quit.

It was then that I realized one of two things were true: either every software organization is ridiculously unreasonably dysfunctional, or the types of software organizations that would hire me were ridiculously unreasonably dysfunctional.

<comment><USER3> > It was then that I realized one of two things were true: either every > software organization is ridiculously unreasonably dysfunctional, or the > types of software organizations that would hire me were ridiculously > unreasonably dysfunctional.

... or you never invested enough effort to look for your right team.

There is more than one team out there thats exactly what you're looking for.

It might take time and effort on your part to find them, but with enough effort you will.

There absolutely are people who want to build a solid business.

Part of building a solid business is building solid relationships

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Two cents - do vent in public, and do share salaries. These things actually help other engineers, though I'm sure they don't help career directors and VPs. Let's not pretend to be stupid when we aren't.

<comment><USER5> Doesn't help your own career, though.

After leaving a certain well known tech company, I also wanted to reflect honestly on the experience of working there. I tried to be honest, in a blog post you can probably find, about the problems with the place as well as moments when I wasn't at my best and could've done better.

Later, when I decided to go back to work, a prospective boss found the post and basically didn't hire me over it.

In this case, I felt fine about it. I could stand by what I wrote, and this person's not getting it was a signal for me that he wouldn't be a great boss.

But if I had written a rant and dropped some f bombs, I might have felt more silly.

Great respect for Rachel, I love her blog and she's clearly an amazing person and I wouldn't presume to tell her what to do. But, other readers, you're not Rachel. Consider your actions.

<comment><USER6> This is going to sound cliched, but I'm doing this in part for the people who can't do this. I have the flexibility to do this, and I kind of figure "from me, according to my ability". If it improves the situation, then I've succeeded to some small extent.

Everyone else: if you can't stick your neck out, DON'T.

(Also, some people want to hire you because you're a straight shooter and you don't stand for bullshit. It's not burning bridges, it's finding the ones that weren't worth a damn in the first place. The good ones will still be there, and will be even stronger for it.)

<comment><USER7> And... if you are thinking maybe you should leave a job, leave yesterday! Those of us who solve problems solve them by stubbornness, by not giving up. But problems with a toxic workplace can be solved only by giving up.

If everybody suffering also left, the problem people they are all supporting would drop right through the floor.

<comment><USER8> Don't just leave; take every decent coworker you can with you.

<comment><USER3> In my experience it does not come to that.

Your (ex)coworkers will just apply where you happen to currently work. It happens organically without any suggesting or prodding.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I believe this highlights a very important reality of office politics. Most ICs, even Principal Engineers, are just not in a position to fix significant technical-cultural problems...you just won't have enough influence.

If your goal is to influence the big picture at a corporation then your title probably has to be Sr. Director, VP, SVP, or something similar. Even then it won't be easy. Political and cultural inertia will conspire to prevent change.

<comment><USER10> I had a boss in a big corp. He couldn't fix the techno-cultural problems but he could and did hold an umbrella over his team. It'd be raining down shit and we were dry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'd take this with a grain of salt. The problem she was trying to "fix" is describe very generically on purpose, so that you'd never guess what the actual problem is and whether it's a problem at all. Then, it looks like "problems that don't get fixed" is a pet peeve of hers (I found this talk she gave: [https://youtu.be/rJJAxQjZ-uE](https://youtu.be/rJJAxQjZ-uE)). There is always two sides of the story. We're hearing one side, and not even a good version of it.

</comment><comment><USER12> This article is showing an important lesson: no matter how valuable you are as an IC, changing the culture at a toxic company is very difficult alone. The one thing that has been proven to work for these situations is collective action by employees. One IC is replaceable, a team of ICs quitting is a disaster, the threat of such action is enough to make any manager/director shit their pants. You don't even have to come out guns blazing and do a full union right away, creating a simple demand on paper with all members of a team signing that demand is often enough to make management scared.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm glad that some of her options vested, and that she didn't have to pay back any of a signing bonus.

</comment><comment><USER14> Two cents - don't vent in public.

<comment><USER15> This person had a terrible experience at work, and you telling them "don't vent" is condescending. Our industry has a problem with toxic work environments, and we need to talk about it.

<comment><USER16> It is a risk to do so. I guess she'll be fine though, she typically is a controversial figure.</comment></comment></comment>


Mill Computing in 2017 - <AUTHOR> https://millcomputing.com/topic/mill-computing-in-2017/ <comment><USER3> For the uninitiated, the bringup of a new processor is very complex - <USER2> compiler to libraries to kernel, from emulation to real hardware. The process described here is very similar to the one I was able to observe at SiCortex, though that chip was based on an existing one and so there was no FPGA stage. I'll bet they even use some of the same tools, such as the emulator. Kudos to them for not rushing ahead before their foundation is ready, and I look forward to seeing how this all works out.

<comment><USER4> _Bringup_ is when you throw everything together and that means that you have everything to throw together. It's like that Johnny Cash song, _One Piece At A Time_.

      Now, up to now my plan went all right
      'Til we tried to put it all together one night
      And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong.

That's _bringup_. Compiler development ain't part of bringup. They could/should have been doing an LLVM backend using a software simulator (and eventually an FPGA simulator) which is the traditional approach handed down from our knuckledragger forefathers and going back decades.

Still, I truly wish them well. It beats the crap out of 99% of the YC startups I see. The 37th recommendation engine, a webstore for sneakerheads, ...

<comment><USER3> The bringup process includes all the stuff leading up to that final moment, just like most other processes - e.g. release process - include the stuff leading up to a conclusion. The quibble really wasn't very constructive.

<comment><USER4> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_development...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit_development#Bringup)

"After a design is created, taped-out and manufactured, actual hardware, 'first silicon', is received which is taken into the lab where it goes through bringup. _Bringup is the process of powering, testing and characterizing the design in the lab._ "

<comment><USER3> Well, sorry, but I worked with a whole lot of people who were designing, verifying, and building that processor, and they used "bringup" for the entire process. I was part of that process myself. Actual experience counts for more than argumentum ad wikipedia. Also, even if the word was wrong, that matters far less than the context in which it was used. Dictionary flames are the last refuge of someone with nought worthwhile to say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My only exposure to Mill (besides this page link) has been random comments in various stories here over the years.

They typically start with ("Mill team"), and then the rest sounds like it came from the future. It's all about getting the flux capacitors charged.

Can anyone post some low-level code (in assembly, or the closest equivalent if that term is no longer relevant with Mill) implementing some well-known simple algorithm on the Mill? Just to quickly get a feel of what it's all about, how it looks.

Something like computing n! for word-sized integers, or strcmp(), or whatever.

Does anyone have a quick link to something like that?

<comment><USER6> Well, there's a couple of pieces of sample code on comp.arch in google groups / usenet. Sadly, I can't find any examples of genAsm anywhere, but a couple of fragments of conAsm. Maybe that's better, as conAsm is what's going to actually run.

This tread for example, talks about instruction density of Mill programs. Mill does somewhat poorly, with a pre-alpha quality compiler doing the codegen; [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.arch/RY3Bk7O61u...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.arch/RY3Bk7O61uA)

Comparing several ISAs on the simple program in the first post, a Mill Gold CPU binary weighs in at 337 bytes (and 33 instructions), compared to:

* powerpc: 212 bytes, 53 instructions * aarch64: 204 bytes, 51 instructions * arm: 176 bytes, 44 instructions * x86_64: 135 bytes, 49 instructions * i386: 130 bytes, 55 instructions * thumb2: 120 bytes, 51 instructions * thumb: 112 bytes, 56 instructions

<comment><USER7> GenAsm for the factorial function (conAsm in a different reply, above): define external function @fact w (in w) locals($3, %9, &0, ^6) {

label $0:

        %1 = sub(%0, 1) ^0;

        %2 = gtrsb(%1, 1) ^1;

        br(%2, $1, $2);

label $1 dominators($0) predecessors($0, $1): // loop=$1 header

        %3 = phi(w, %5, $1, %0, $0);

        %4 = phi(w, %6, $1, %1, $0);

        %5 = mul(%3, %4) ^2;

        %6 = sub(%4, 1) ^3;

        %7 = gtrsb(%6, 1) ^4;

        br(%7, $1, $2);

label $2 dominators($0) predecessors($0, $1):

        %8 = phi(w, %0, $0, %5, $1);

        retn(%8) ^5;

};

Higher-end Mill models have more and bigger things to encode, and so a given program will occupy more bytes than it will on a lower-end member. Thus a belt reference on a Gold is 6 bits, but only 3 on a Tin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Silly question: does this company retain full-time people, or is their work primarily done by folks employed elsewhere? Maybe I just haven't reached whatever point in life where a salary is no longer necessary, but I was surprised by their About page.

<comment><USER9> My understanding is that it's a group of enthusiasts and volunteers who are donating sweat equity out of enjoyment and the gentlemen's agreement of full- time employment once the company really gets going.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Instead of bashing Mill, the true question is what we open source developers can do to help them?

Implement algorithms? Improve FOSS tools?

@Mill team,

can you set up a list of FOSS projects that we can contribute in order to help? I specialize in implementing algorithms, especially optimization and other stuff.

<comment><USER7> See [https://millcomputing.com/#JoinUs](https://millcomputing.com/#JoinUs)

NDA and sweat-equity agreement required; you get full-vested long-term options monthly; expected to be actual stock monthly after the next round.

To help in a FOSS context: we are not yet ready to put out an SDK to the FOSS community, or to anyone really. That will wait until after our cloud environment is up - and a few more patents have been filed (the ISE exposes things we want to protect).

In the meantime, the most help would be to support existing microkernel operating system efforts such as L4 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family)). The Mill will have a big impact on conventional OSs like Linux, but those suffer from built-in assumptions that open security holes and makes the OS a dog that the Mill can only train a little. The big win is in microkernels, which can take advantage of the Mill's tight security and ultra-fast context switching.

Or support languages that have central micro-thread concepts, such as Go [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(programming_language)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_\(programming_language\)), for the same reason.

But whatever you do, don't tune the microkernels or microthreads for a conventional core; instead, do it right, and we'll be along to help eventually :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm slightly surprised that they didn't have an FPGA implementation running as proof of concept already.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing what MillComputing can deliver in the real world.

</comment><comment><USER12> According to the CTO, 80% of software operations are loops ([https://youtu.be/QGw-cy0ylCc?t=454](https://youtu.be/QGw-cy0ylCc?t=454))? I need convincing of that before I watch the rest of the talk. I suspect it would be a fundamental premise for the architecture of the chip. If it's not true, the stats are probably skewed for an unusual benchmark.

<comment><USER13> 100% of software operations are loops, it's just that some of them are only run once ;)

Joking aside, computers help us handle loops more efficiently; that's it. The 20% "non-loop operations" are just the fabric that tie the loops together.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I haven't followed mill after attending a few lectures years ago.

Does anyone think this is commercially viable? Or are we looking at a new Transputer?

<comment><USER15> The Mill architecture has lots of ideas which are really good on paper. We've had the same situation before, around 2000 with Itanium. There were many parts of that CPU which looked good on paper. In hindsight, the Itanium was too complex.

Commercial viability of the architecture depends on how X86-64 and ARM fares in the coming years. If they stagnate and can't produce faster single-CPU cores _and_ people _continue_ writing software which lives in a single-core world, then there is a room for a CPU delivering a 10-fold increase in performance per watt per dollar.

If on the other hand, most of the heavy computation are moved into either SIMD-style GPUs, or MIMD style Adapteva (Parallela) like solutions, where you have a thousand cores, then the Mill is less likely to have success.

I'm optimistic that someone are trying to rethink how to handle CPU design from the bottom up. It is a gamble, but if we don't try, we won't really learn if there is anything better out there than the current generation of out-of- order executing chips.

I'm pessimistic because Mill smells of Itanium. It is a mix of many new, unproven, ideas inside a single solution. Some of the ideas are genuinely good and might stick if thrown at a wall. But if you are gambling on having many new ideas at the same time, it is likely that some of them will turn out to be bad ideas.

I'd place the majority of my money on simple ISA designs, such as ARM or RISC-V, preferably in a many-core design, but I'd hedge a good sum on Mill as well.

<comment><USER16> The problem with the Mill is its not clear to me what advantage it can hope to seize over the behemoth which is Intel. If the market opens up enough to justify new architectures, then it's also opening up enough to let Intel pivot into that space and unlike everyone else they own the fabs to do it.

<comment><USER17> This is drastically over-simplified, but in short, the Mill is a sort of middle-ground between superscalar implementations (x86, ARM) and VLIW (Itanium, DSPs).

Superscalars leave a lot of the optimization process to complexity in the hardware. This is seen in stuff like the out-of-order scheduling and large cache hierarchies. In one of the Mill talks, it's guesstimated that almost 90% of the circuitry is dedicated to simply moving data around, as opposed to actually doing any work on that data.

VLIWs take the opposite extreme, leaving the complexity of optimization to the compiler. History has shown so far though, that many computing problems are (again oversimplified) too conditionals-heavy to really benefit from VLIW, and end up running much more slowly.

So the Mill is a bet that they can get more benefits from each approach without the major draw-backs of each. This isn't really ground Intel could simply "move into" without half a decade plus of work, and even then, they'd be cannibalizing their x86 ecosystem, which is not a risk most entrenched corporations are fond of.

<comment><USER16> But that's the point: if I want to buy non-Intel at my company, I've got contracts, lawyers fees, upper-level management etc. to convince to do it. Intel is probably sending me support personnel and sample hardware.

And I'm _still_ looking at recompiling, debugging and deploying a ton of software to see advantages from the Mill.

So whatever advantages it brings, they need to be _very_ substantial (i.e. if the next-gen of Intel x86 chips still out-perform it, I'll buy them) and quite quick - because I can go 5 years not buying the Mill while Intel promises to support me for their awesome new architecture. I mean, probably we buy some Mill machines, but how likely is it that it's game changing on my codebase?

That's where I see the problem. There's this whole huge assumption that the Mill will yield a bunch of benefits. If they're clear cut (a _huge_ if) then they still have to beat their competitors being able to brute-force performance improvements until they come up with a new architecture themselves, which can take advantage of the very compensation they're asking from their customers ("switch architectures, it'll be great we promise").

<comment><USER18> There are a few places I could see Mill making inroads.

The security features could be very useful for the big internet companies, Amazon, Google, Facebook, etc and they can afford to spend a few tens of millions of dollars on something speculative like this. And they do, with things like Arm or OpenPower servers.

There's also the high end embedded land where you don't need to run a traditional operating system. Network switches, cell towers, that sort of thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's exciting to think about a 10x improvement in CPUs. This would literally change our lives.

For anyone considering getting involved or investing could you fill in a couple of bio details?

>Ivan Godard has designed, implemented or led teams for...an operating system, an object-oriented database

Cool, which OS and database?

>taught computer science at graduate and post-graduate level at Carnegie- Mellon University

Which courses?

<comment><USER20> Someone asked something similar a while ago: [http://blog.kevmod.com/2014/07/the-mill- cpu/](http://blog.kevmod.com/2014/07/the-mill-cpu/)

Ivan responded to the post but didn't address the questions about his bio at all, but perhaps he doesn't feel the need to.

For the curious, his name apparently was Mark Rain for some time in the 70s/80s [1] – there are a number of publications under that name.

[1] [http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.arch/2012-...](http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.arch/2012-08/msg00444.html)

<comment><USER19> Why would he not feel a need to?

All of us have to maintain detailed bios when seeking funding, trying to build a team, or building corporate partnerships, all of which appear to be on the table.

<comment><USER7> Our industry is a surprisingly small pond, at the top anyway. No one would invest in the Mill based on my formal bio "College dropout; never took a CS course in his life" :-)

Instead they invest based on our technology, most of which (and eventually all) we make publicly available. You may not be able to judge it, but any potential partner has people who can. One of the things that encouraged us in our long road is that the more senior and more skilled the reviewer, the more they loved the Mill. Quotes like "This thing is the screwiest thing I've ever seen, but it would work - and I could build it".

<comment><USER19> I don't think many people care about a degree. It's just weird that you ask interested people to join you but seem reluctant to give details on your bio. A lot of people factor it in when deciding on joining or dealing with a startup.

<comment><USER7> Judge us on the tech, not on me. To be honest, if you cannot already understand what we have put out to the public well enough to know that you want to work on it, then you are probably still too junior to be really useful as we are now. We can't afford the cost of ramping people up if they are not already there.

As we grow there will be more place for beginners, but not yet. Mind, that's beginners as in concept understanding, not beginners as in age or degrees. I'm a dropout, and this year we added an intern in Tunisia who's still finishing his exams. We let people self-select, we don't try to persuade them. And we don't pay them, so only the convinced join.

In a way, at the top of engineering things work much more like they do in the arts: you are judged by your portfolio, not by your background or education.

<comment><USER21> "Judge us on the tech, not on me." Hans Reiser and ReiserFS taught everyone that the person's bio _does_ matter for the project.

<comment><USER20> I don't think anything in his bio or not in his bio conveyed that he would murder his wife and go to prison for life thus abandoning the project.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I am glad this is still going - if only for the reason that different computer architectures fascinate me. IIRC they said the belt machine thing maps well to SSA - you specify your operands by position, but the destination register is implicitly the back of the queue - in kind of the same way that each "a op b" in SSA is saved to a new variable.

[http://millcomputing.com/wiki/Belt](http://millcomputing.com/wiki/Belt)

<comment><USER23> Ivan is a compiler guy, and I've always seen a huge impact of "compiler guy" thinking on Mill -- in a much smarter way than how "compiler guy" thinking sank Itanium.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> > "We considered going out for our next funding round round earlier, but > decided to wait until our technology was confirmed by issued patents"

An example of patents slowing down innovation rather than promoting it.

</comment><comment><USER25> > So far our patent experience has been excellent. We have successfully > refuted all the prior art cited by the Examiners. While we have rephrased > our applications to suit the Examiner in several cases, the substance of our > claims have been allowed without exception. The Mill is truly novel – and we > now have the USPTO imprimatur to confirm that.

So it won't be useful for another 20ish years. Yay?

> It will, naturally enough, break. However, by hosting it ourselves we can > capture what failed, and use that as raw feed for our test/debug team.

Wow, this is gettting more and more depressing.

<comment><USER26> Not sure about the patent stuff, but "cloud"-only compiler hosting is an absolute show-stopper for me.

<comment><USER27> At a minimum, you'd need to spend a stack of cash verifying that the EULA of the cloud compiler didn't include a "ALL UR INVENTIONS ON THIS ARE BELONG TO US" clause - would be only prudent given how intent the _company_ is on planting its flag in IP.

<comment><USER7> Such paranoia is amply justified in our industry. However I expect that we will continue our iconoclastic approach to legalisms so long as the founders keep control. Our model for our cloud software follows the example pioneered by Greg Comeau; you can see his at [http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout/](http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout/).</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Karta 0.7 - Geospatial Python - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/fortyninemaps/karta <comment><AUTHOR> Karta is a package I've been working on for a while now. Originally, it was intended to be a light-weight pure Python module for geospatial data, but it's gradually grown C and Cython extensions in the name of performance.

It doesn't wrap a large C library like Shapely or rasterio, but instead tries to be more general and provide the set of geographical objects and spatial algorithms that I would otherwise need to frequently reimplement.

Anyway, I'd be interested in getting some feedback on it. I use it pretty extensively in my own work, and would like to see it be useful for others.</comment>


HBO comedy "Silicon Valley" – pilot script leaked - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/44671/hbo-comedy-silicon-valley-is-a-lot-better-than-bravo-reality-show-silicon-valley/ <comment><USER2> Holy crap, the overdone continuous scrolling and animation makes that page almost useless. Scroll a little bit, and suddenly I'm jumped to a different part of the page. Don't scroll too far up, or it loads the previous article right in place, and doesn't keep you where you were. Then the top-bar seems to come down at random.

What a frustrating example of overdoing an attempt at a "rich experience" thus hindering the user experience of trying to just read the goddamned article. I'll take the bullshit multipage approach that clickmongers use over this goofy and unintuitive interface.

<comment><USER3> You know, one of the eternal downsides of a discussion site filled with web developers is that whenever you post a link, instead of discussing the actual content, the top-rated comment is far too often an angry criticism of the website design itself, followed by tangent about Javascript or something.

<comment><USER4> In this case, the website design is so horrible as to render a discussion about the topic impossible, since the design has made it impossible to _read the damn thing_.

<comment><USER5> That seems a tad melodramatic..

<comment><USER6> Have you been to the site? It's not at all navigable on desktops. When you can't even read the content without being shoved into another section of the site entirely, it's kind of a big deal.

<comment><USER3> I managed to read it on a desktop just fine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _Silicon Valley_ : <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2575988/>

Director & writer is Mike Judge who is known for his animated series _Beavis and Butthead_ and _King of the Hill_ as well as the classic _Office Space_.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/>

<comment><USER8> And Idiocracy.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> From the article:

        TANDY: This is it? This is where all the tech billionaires decided to live?
        LANGDON: It can't be. (stops a passerby) Excuse me, is this Palo Alto?

Hilarious :)

<comment><USER10> Unless they were standing outside a whole foods or so, I don't buy the existence of "passerby"

<comment><USER11> Downtown Palo Alto is very walkable with lots of pedestrian traffic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> A few days ago someone linked to a test for media, where you had to see if two women have a conversation that isn't about men. I don't know why, but it really stuck with me, and then I was really disappointed when the two female characters in this script turned out to be gold diggers.

I'm not trying to argue there should be more women in this show. I'm mostly just complaining about whoever planted this idea in my head. It may be good, but it's kind of ruining my enjoyment of pop culture

<comment><USER13> You're referring to the Bechdel Test.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test>

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> This sounds absolutely terrible. Hopefully they've made significant changes, but the stuff included in the OP's link fits with the story beats mentioned in my link below.

From a review submitted to AICN: "If this script is unchanged as HBO begins production, it will be one of the worst pilots HBO has ever aired. The draft I read is dated mid October, so God willing Mike Judge (and other writers John Altschuler & Dave Krinsky) get their act together. Frankly, I had to re-read this twice to really take in just how God awful it is.

Even shorter review: Mike Judge drives through Silicon Valley. Once. He then fills a script with uninteresting stereotypes. It is not funny. At all."

"This isn't Office Space humor of reality/biting sarcasm. This isn't Idiocracy humor of the absurd. It's like a drive by concept, that in execution lacks any semblance of humor, because the world they've created isn't believable and the characters they've populated in it lack any semblance of reality."

link to full review: <http://www.aintitcool.com/node/60283>

<comment><USER15> _> because the world they've created isn't believable and the characters they've populated in it lack any semblance of reality_

Sounds like the Valley I know and love.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> SV/startup culture does deserve some skewering. This will probably be awesome.

</comment><comment><USER17> The script excerpts make for a good tease, but I generally have a bias for HBO shows anyway. I think this is going to be interesting, unlike Big Bang Theory which bored me within the first season.

<comment><USER18> Big Bang Theory is definitely not a show for geeks.

Now Fringe, there's a show for geeks (warning the science may be slightly liberal at times)

<comment><USER19> I really like Fringe because most of the season finales could be the final season and I'll be OK with it. I actually thought the previous season was the final season.

<comment><USER20> 2-hour series finale is tonight (Friday). The most disappointing thing is that it's one of the only Sci-Fi shows on TV right now, and I'm counting the SyFy channel.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Ironically I think Silicon Valley will appreciate this show so much more than Bravo's attempt to glamorize it.

<comment><USER22> seems the opposite of ironic to me

<comment><USER16> It's slightly ironic that SV/tech people will enjoy watching something where they're somewhat mocked vs. fawned over, I think.

<comment><USER22> fair point. but, op was contrasting HBOs version with Bravos version, both of which presumably do a great job of mocking and fawning. which suggests the proposed source of irony is elsewhere.

<comment><USER23> I thought it was that Bravo failed by being "earnest/fawning", ie the opposite of cynical/ironic

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> That page has a white "loading" overlay that I had to "display:none;" to see the content. I really hope people stop using them soon.

<comment><USER25> your probably using adblocker or ghostery. they dont show you the content unless you disable them. Scummy.

<comment><USER26> Might be accidental, can be a real pain if you develop media tech (and don't personally run adblock yourself).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Not opining on how good it is: the script matters less than the execution.

Have you ever watched Coupling? It is an extremely funny British sitcom (ignoring the 4th season, which is just "funny", but not as good as the first 3 seasons, with the exception of a couple of episodes).

It was also successful in the US. So, an american version with american actors was made, as is customary (see e.g. The Office, Queer as Folk, Being Human, etc, etc, etc.)

It had exactly the same texts for the expisodes I watched. It had reasonably good actors. But it just wasn't funny. I gave it the benefit of doubt. Then rewatched the british. Still funny. Then the american. Not funny.

(Successful conversions like "the office" go their own way, rather than stay true to the original)

The best script is useless without a matching excellent delivery. And a lesser script is still excellent with the right delivery. (Think about how Seinfeld would look if done by your other favorite comedians who are not Seinfeld/Louis-Dreyfus/Spadowski et al)

I like Mike Judge's past work. I'm going to wait until I see it executed before I have an opinion.

</comment><comment><USER15> That script just reminds me this video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzNRUkl9BoY&list=PL88631E...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzNRUkl9BoY&list=PL88631EE962F32577&index=14)

How I love the Valley.

</comment><comment><USER23> Did they really say EAST Palo Alto? Maybe if they're squatting at IKEA.

</comment><comment><USER28> Hugh Mason from JFDI.Asia and Daniel of This Week in Asia said "startups is becoming more and more a spectator sport"

</comment><comment><USER29> I might watch if it actually depicts life in SV. I just hope they don't go too crazy just to get higher ratings.

<comment><USER30> It's a fictional comedy, not a reality show.

<comment><USER31> There's nothing hilarious about 1 million tweets @3:00 am complaining about your server being down . . . of course if it's somebody elses server, well, that's comedy gold.

<comment><USER32> You know, if the show actually did have stuff like servers going dow, I am going to watch the shit out of it.

Dammit, now I'm setting the bar too high in my head.

<comment><USER33> Maybe they'll surprise you by having a bar empty out after CloudCo's North Virginia datacenter has an outage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Doesn't work very well with Ghostery, <http://i.imgur.com/tsXZh.png>

</comment><comment><USER15> Does anyone have a link to the actual leaked script? Can't seem to find on that page (it's scrolling all over the place :)

</comment><comment><USER35> Can we get a link to the whole script?

</comment><comment><USER36> Some geeks look rapey.

</comment><comment><USER37> Nope!

</comment><comment><USER38> Fuck hbo, comcast, et. al. they peaked in the 80s. seriously, what purpose do they serve? Curators of taste?

<comment><USER39> HBO is running some of the greatest shows these days, wouldn't you agree?

<comment><USER38> I would agree. I was just expressing rage at comcast more than anything. hbo was a collateral casualty.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What does your AWS/Azure/cloud architecture look like? - <AUTHOR> My day job is an information security consultant. More and more we're being asked to recommend and consult on cloud security. Questions like "what should we be logging?", "should we use EC2 or Elastic Beanstalk?", "should we use AWS Control Tower?". Our team is trying to beef up our cloud skills, but none of us are developers and none of us work in this environment regularly. We're trying to fix that, but the question is what cloud technologies are actually being used, and which ones can we put less emphasis on when we're doing training?<p>So with that in mind, if your company uses cloud services what technologies are you actually using? If you were hiring a cloud security consultant, what questions would you have? <comment><USER2> Google Cloud all the way, more secure by default and with optimization. Mainly GKE and some other services. We use Istio, gVisor, and SA binding for enhanced security. Need to VPN and container / source scan still.

AWS must be good for your business ;]

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually of the few clients I've worked with who needed cloud help, the majority have been using Google Cloud. Between AWS, Azure, and Google Cloud, Google seems to be (by far) more difficult to get logs out of and into your security monitoring tools.</comment></comment>