Apple's Company Registration for its App Store is Awkward and Awful - <AUTHOR> http://sam-dunne.com/post/39040255207 <comment><USER3> __Cough ___cough_ <http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform/pages/CCRSearch.jsp> _sputter_ _sputter_ _ahem_ _free_ _one business day_ _cough_ _do this before submitting to Apple_ _cough_ _D &B is basically extortion_

For what it's worth, I was sent the URL above on a _wink wink hush hush_ basis by a large EV SSL certificate issuer. We needed a cert for our non-US company, but they wanted a DUNS number. Nobody outside the US actually uses DUNS numbers (I don't care what D&B says). So yeah, that URL gives you a DUNS number for free within 1 business day, paid for by the US Government.

<comment><USER4> The above link pitches its offer as being for companies that do business with the US government. Does your business actually have to be engaged in a government contract, or can it be on a "we might respond to an RFQ someday" basis?

<comment><USER3> The latter. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My story with DUNS number for my startup:

Long time ago when I applied for a merchant account for my startup, I was asked for a DUNS number, I and decided to get one. After filling out online application, and a long wait, I got it, and started to put it everywhere where I was asked for it. I don't think DUNS did any check on my company before giving the number to me, and I couldn't see what's on my profile, since I never paid them. Anyway, I got my merchant account.

After several years in startup operation when I tried to raise some capital, one of potential investors told me that with such bad credit history for my company, I will not be able to raise any capital. I asked him where he checked my company's credit history, and he told me that he checked on D&B. I told him that I can't check myself, and I can't see what is the problem, and after he emailed me my report from D&B, and was in shock after I read it :) Report is broken down in many sections, and my report was something linke this: Partnerships in the industry: None Revenue: None Bank accounts: None And so on... And so on... At the the end of the report: Credit level: $800

:) and we were doing like 300K in revenues already, growing fast, and didn't even expected that people trusting them and looking up info on companies there.

I decided to become a good D&B citizen, since so many people trust them. So, I called them up, and asked why information about my company is so wrong there, and they told me that I need to pay, and they will "fix" my profile. After paying, and sending them a list of industry partners, IRS reports, and started to wait.

After few months, I called them up, and they told me that they tried to call my partners from my list, and no one was able to confirm that they work with me.

Anyway, when I realized that my profile will never be in a good standing, I asked them to take it down completely, and remove my company from their database. After talking, to one supervisor, and them to the other, they agree to take it down.

But the final funny part, is that when I checked my profile online, it stated that "CEO called and reported that company is closing down" :)))

<comment><USER6> This seems to go beyond incompetence and into outright extortion and fraud. They caused you material harm by misrepresenting you. They wouldn't fix their information even after they were informed that it's wrong, making it willful, and tried to collect money from you to stop lying about you. I'm frankly surprised they haven't been sued into the ground yet.

<comment><USER7> Looks like a business ripe for disruption, too -- ripe to the point of rottenness.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Usually even when you have a DUNS number, Apple demands that some of the company entity codes are filled in correctly. D&B will usually offer to fix them for you in a month or take $200+ to do it faster.

The process that takes a month can be done over the phone or online but frequently D&B simply stops processing mid-correction and abandons the update. The process will be abandoned silently for a couple weeks, then you'll get calls offering once again to update for a fee.

It took me three months to register with Apple. And that was for an ordinary plain vanilla US domestic corporation.

<comment><USER9> Same story for my US company as well. First applied to the Dev Program August 1st, finally got in December 18th.

3 calls to Apple - all good, quality support, but basically the ball was always placed in D&B's court . That was ~10 calls to D&B all of which were horrible. Definitely hang up and call again when told to call again told something can't be done in the system - It obviously can be if Apple demands that it to be done.

The month lag time for changes is the real killer - particular when D&B always says everything is fine.

\--

One of the more fun incidents was when they altered the corporation to my personal name, as a sole proprietor after I'd called to get the LLC added to the end of the Corp's name. Of course I didn't find out for a month, as they claimed they'd done exactly what I'd wanted, and their web UI's been broken for us ½ the time.

That incident is permanently in the corporate history now as though it really happened. Not worth fixing though.

<comment><USER10> Very similar experience. Started the enrollment process end of October this year. Got a DUNS number November 1st. But I didn't get the green light to actually register until December 26. That was after 2 phone calls to Apple + 2 phone calls to D&B + countless times making updates (and waiting for email confirmations) using the D&B iUpdate system. Always seemed like one company was ready to put the ball in other company's court.

Now I'm idling because you need to signup separately for iTunes Connect. After 5x times getting the same error ("Your Apple ID isn't authorized for iTunes Connect"), I contacted Appple Dev Support. Their response: iTunes Connect is down for scheduled maintenance thru Dec. 28th. Uh, then why didn't the error message say that? Or a sidebar? Or alert?

Definitely feels like I'm in One Infinite Loop

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Actually I just went through this same process recently and found that if you apply using the link on Apple's site, you can get the DUNS number for free within 5 days. Follow this form: <https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action>

I explained the full process at <http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/>

It's sad that this whole process isn't more transparent and easy though.

<comment><USER12> Awesome! I requested a DUNS number a couple weeks ago and planned on just waiting it out, but it looks like Apple already has my number after all. Thanks for the link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> How long has it been a requirement that any Apple Developer Program business membership requires a DUNS number? I thought that was only a requirement for their enterprise program, but apparently they now require a DUNS number for even the $99 business membership.

When I opened a business membership in early 2011, I only needed to send Apple the incorporation certificate from my secretary of state. It took a week for Apple to process it, if that long.

<comment><USER14> They started requiring it earlier this year. In Brazil D&B asks for 60 WORKING DAYS!!!!

</comment></comment><comment>====

Boa tarde,

Confirmo o recebimento do formulário preenchido. Em 60 dias úteis o duns number será disponibilizado.

Make it a Great Day!

Juliana Silva

Dun & Bradstreet do Brasil Ltda.

</comment><comment><USER14> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4830303>

I made a formal complaint to authorities about this.

<comment><USER15> I don't think that in many jurisdictions it would be illegal.

It's certainly not illegal for a company to set criteria for which suppliers it will do business with: for example, "we'll only work with ISO9001 certified companies". Is this any different?

I'd be interested to hear more about why this practice is illegal in Brazil, especially as you say it could lead to a prison sentence (which seems odd for what should be a civil case). Is there case law or statute available for someone interested in such things to browse?

<comment><USER14> Those matters are federal, no such thing as 'jurisdiction'.

[http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/comme...](http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/hearings/single_firm/comments/219224_b.htm)

<comment><USER16> You just linked to an article that dismisses your initial claim:

> Most economists now would agree on three fundamentals. First, tying is a > pervasive practice that, in many instances, gives rise to substantial > efficiencies, particularly when it takes the form of product integration. > Second, the circumstances in which tying would lead to anticompetitive > effects are very restricted. And third, not only are those conditions hard > to verify, but also any attempt to balance efficiency gains against possible > anticompetitive effects will prove a complex exercise.

<comment><USER14> You got a part where they are talking about products that are bundled together but belongs to the same company.

Like a selling a laptop with a mouse included.

<comment><USER16> The whole comment is wrapped in anti-trust which doesn't even apply in this situation. The notion that someone should/could go to jail for a policy that is inconvenient, is hyperbolic.

Apple wants a DUNS number because they are taking on some fraud risk and want a company identifier for credit history and to reduce the risk they are dealing with scammers. Seems pretty reasonable.

<comment><USER14> They are not requiring a credit rating (which is offered by many companies) They want a service from a specific company.

Edit: someone would go to jail after not complying with some court order. Example: google VP in brazil went to jail earlier this year for not taking down a youtube video. Those orders may come way before an actual trial

<comment><USER17> They used D&B because D&B has by far the largest international database of businesses, and DUNS numbers have been around since the 60s. Many government agencies internationally require DUNS numbers if you want to do business with them.

It's something of an entrenched international standard. Most likely nobody wants to have to deal with multiple database companies, or a competing database with big gaps in its coverage compared to DNB.

At least it's free, even if they attempt to charge a premium for faster service.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> If I'm not mistaken, this is the same issue run into by the creators of Trifecta: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4896805>

> While we were ready to submit Trifecta at the beginning of November, we ran > into issues due to how hard Apple makes it for a pair of developers to > release an app together. To do so and have both of us credited we had to > form a company (R&K Labs) and _obtain a D.U.N.s number which took us a > month_.

</comment><comment><USER19> Getting the free DUNS number is awkward and awful even in the US. D&B calls you about 24 hours after you place your order and tries to sign you to a paid package (perhaps suggesting that the free DUNS is no good for the AppStore). Once you refuse they let you wait -- supposedly for 30 business days, but you can wait a lifetime since they don't bother contacting you again. The DUNS number gets silently issued after 30 business days with no phone call or email notification.

</comment><comment><USER20> I just went through this process and it seemed like a scam. After registering I got a sales call where they pushed the $300 package, suggesting that it would take over a month to get set up with Apple if I did not purchase it. When I refused, they had the audacity to say I should reconsider purchasing when I could afford it.

I registered on iupdate.dnb.com and only paid $50 to expedite the request for a DUNS number. The entire process was complete in a week and we were approved by Apple.

</comment><comment> k-mcgrady I tried signing up for a company account too and it was so bad I gave up. I already had a DUNS number (I never applied for one, I just searched the D&B website, found my company, and they emailed it to me). The problem was that D&B had my company registered in the wrong country. After I changed it with them Apple's country information information was still incorrect. After a couple of months trying to get it sorted, even speaking with Apple via email, I gave up and registered an individual account instead. I figured it might be easier to upgrade from individual to company (although I haven't tried yet).

<comment><USER21> I had a client with the same issues. The company account is still pending after 4 months of e-mails and phone calls; in the meantime they are using an individual account to publish. It doesn't follow Apple's rules, but it's either that or no apps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I recently ran into an issue with D&B misspelling our company name. This was a massive hassle and I made over 6 phone calls to them and they kept on saying there was one more thing that had to be updated and it would be another 7-14 days. Each time I only found out that the update was not complete because I would call Apple to figure out why the iTunes Connect account was locked.

I finally got fed up and sent this tweet: <https://twitter.com/sjsivak/status/276826269377765376>. They called me the next morning and fixed it that day.

</comment><comment><USER14> What strikes me the most is the US Gov. asking this number from US companies.

There is no excuse for the US Gov not having an updated registry of all companies in the country. In fact, I'm pretty sure IRS should have that. So, why the hell is that number required anyways? Even if the number is somehow necessary, Why d&b? Was there an auction at least? I doubt it.

I'm surprised that sometimes americans accept that kind of crap from their Government (executive) and large corporations (apple) without using Judiciary services. You don't always need money and/or lawyers to protect yourself from your government.

<comment><USER17> The US Gov also asks for the number they do have, the EIN.

"Why d&b"

Because it's the biggest database, and is international in scope. A local company providing services to a US Embassy or military base overseas is probably in the DUNS database, but probably wouldn't be in a smaller or US- focused database.

DUNS numbers are a common requirement when doing business or dealing with government for loans or contracts. That's why D&B has 150 million companies in their database.

Established businesses aren't going to have any hardship with Apple's requirement or the government's requirement, because they already have a DUNS number.

The only people for whom this is a problem are people just starting up app store-based businesses. But those are relatively few in the grand scheme of things, compared to the overall number of businesses getting DUNS numbers all the time.

But at least it's free, and mostly a one-time process, unlike getting your app submissions approved, or dealing with signing issues, or app guideline changes, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I filled in my details at this Apple page:

<https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action>

... and got my DUNS number emailed to me within 15 minutes.

Worth a try?

<comment><USER24> Isn't that a lookup form? So perhaps you had a DUNS number already/

<comment><USER23> It's possible, I really don't know. I've been trading for 10 years so they probably assigned me one during that time. I never requested one before.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Not to be pedantic, but the title should be

Apple's Company Registration for its App Store is awkward and awful

Just move the apostrophe ahead. </grammar_nazi>

<comment><USER26> The author lives in Ireland. Hence he's most likely a native speaker.

Is it just me or do others also have the impression that it's mostly native speakers doing this incorrectly? Or are there some schools/conventions/… where "it's" is correct or at least an acceptable alternative?

<comment><USER27> I live in Ireland, we dont really get taught a whole lot of grammar in school, or else I had terrible terrible teachers.

Answer: No, no one considers it correct, and if they do, they shouldn't!

I would like to mention that it always seems a bit dickish when someone bothers commenting saying 'hurr durr there's supposed to be an apostrophe here', no one knows if the author has dyslexia, or if he is in fact a native speaker (Legally, our native language isn't English btw, most people are only English speakers, but there is a tiny minority who aren't).

/rant

<comment><USER6> I don't understand why people get upset about these corrections. If I make a mistake, I'd rather be told than not. If the person making the correction is a jerk, sure, that's no good, but that wasn't the case here and usually isn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Japan's equivalent of D&B is TEIKOKU DATABANK or TDB[0]. These guys will come by the office and run through a multiple of questions -- if you don't answer them, they will be reflected in their database.

Whenever you get a call from TDB it is both scary and exciting because you know that some major Japanese corporation wants data on your current standing.

Also, registering for a DUNS number here in Japan is very simple because most of the information that they are after is already filed with the government in an easy to access format.

[0] <http://www.tdb.co.jp/>

</comment><comment><USER23> For the Netherlands it seems straightforward (though I didn't have to get one): [http://www.dbhnederland.nl/nieuws/16/d-u-n-s-nummer-voor- app...](http://www.dbhnederland.nl/nieuws/16/d-u-n-s-nummer-voor-apple- developer-account)

Just call DBH, give them your company registration number, and they'll give you a DUNS number, or so it seems.

</comment><comment><USER29> so many was done to get rid of microsoft claws, and not let one corporation to dictate technology.. and now that microsoft is becoming a zombie, a new lord (or should say lords) rises.. with its "app stores" corporate centric mentality.. and here we go again.. two tech titans now threat the survival of free technology and principles..

and that beast you cant fight back just with GPL licenses and free/open software.. this beast is cool and people love it.. :/

</comment><comment><USER30> Related question: should I register for a DUNS number even though I don't need one right now?

We have a live app in the US app store, charge money for it, etc., and have never been asked for a DUNS, though I did note it was one of the requirements for an Apple enterprise developer account -- which we obviously don't have.

It seems like it takes time and hassle to get, and also like it could come up unexpectedly. Worth the trouble to start the ball rolling now?

<comment><USER31> I would. it is tedious and time consuming, but not necessarily a lot of effort. Just, as some of the comments imply, a lot of waiting. I can't see it hurting anything, as long as you have the time to fill out a silly form a couple of times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I ran into many of the same issues, and my company is based in the USA and I was able to get a DUNS number fairly easily. I contrasted this with my experience with google play here: <http://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/890>

I don't know why Apple makes getting an account so difficult.... Perhaps to filter out fly bynight mobile app developers?

</comment><comment><USER32> Apple's general registration process is a POS. My mother had a new iPad out of the box (no prior Apple products). Between signing up for credentials on one screen, validating her email in a browser then entering billing information at entirely different screen that was seemingly unrelated to the first two screens, I am glad that I did it. Otherwise I am sure she would have become quickly disillusioned.

<comment><USER33> You can choose "skip this" at each of the initial prompts and have a completely functional iPad without registering for anything or entering any other information. Before iOS 5, you had to connect to iTunes on your PC or Mac but that is not required since then.

The first time you really will need an Apple ID is when you go download an App from the App Store (which will be soon enough :)). There also, if you choose an App which is free (like facebook) and you try to download, you will be prompted with a No Payment option to associate with your Apple ID which can can use to downlaod anything. The first time you buy something is when you will need payment information (credit card billing address etc.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I got my DUNS number (Denmark) over the phone calling the local D&B - <USER2> were used to getting calls like that. Call the local D&B again <http://www.dnb.co.uk/> or use the form <http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/> BTW, it's free to get the DUNS number

</comment><comment><USER35> Marco Arment talked about this in some detail on Build and Analyze a while back. (Can't look up the EP number right now unfortunately, sorry)

<comment><USER35> Ok, I had time to check and it was apparently this ep. <http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze/93>

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll have a listen thank you :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> D&B has an information page about the Apple developer program: [http://support.dandb.com/entries/22065146-apple-developer- pr...](http://support.dandb.com/entries/22065146-apple-developer-program)

I just got off the phone after failing to find my company in their online database, and was told to email firstname.lastname@example.com to request my number.

</comment><comment><USER37> When I applied for Apple developer program I was surprised to find that my company already had a DUNS number. I'm in Croatia. I guess it has to do with my company being active for more that 5 years, but I could be wrong.

</comment><comment><USER38> I did this in the UK about 2 months ago, the entire process took about 4 hours.

I used the free option too - you have to scour the UK site for it, but its all there, and it was quick (in November anyway)

<comment><USER39> Im going through this entire process as we speak. Let me give you some pointers that I have learned over the last two days.

I have a company, which is filed as an LLC in Delaware, that has a DUNS number just through D&B doing their work. We have been around for over a year, so they must have picked us up at some point. However, all of the information was incomplete - they didnt know we were an LLC, who owned the company, etc etc.

This meant that when I tried to apply for a Company iOS Dev license, I hit the same problem you did. Apple's background check (done through D&B/DUNS), totally failed, and I was black listed.

I called Apple, they told me to sign up as an individual, and then do my work there while I update my DUNS information, at iupdate.dnb.com. Currently, I'm waiting the 15 days after updating to re-apply for Apple's business dev account, while the databases get in sync.

You DO NOT need to pay for a DUNs number, however, they obviously want to upsell you for expedited service. I wouldn't do it. They get paid a healthy sum from Apple every year, and you are not their client, Apple is.

Try to do whatever you are doing as an individual developer, get a hold of the DUNS number/update info, and ask Apple to upgrade your account after the fact.

Best of luck

Charlie

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I'm surprised -- i registered for a company developer account a few years ago and they only required me to fax the articles of incorporation. Have the rules changed since then?

</comment><comment><USER41> This article is badly in need of an editor.

<comment><AUTHOR> Writing has never been a strong skill of mine. Hence the very few blog postings

<comment><USER42> Don't worry, you got your message across. And blog more, it's a good way to get better :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the advice :). I didn't proof read it. Hence the 'it's'. Oh well, lesson number 1 I guess

<comment><USER43> Here's another tip: if you use a full stop at the end of your first sentences, don't forget to add one to the end of your last. Otherwise you'll remind me of Perl where semicolons are required to separate statements, but you may leave off the semicolon after the last statement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Do they require DUNS numbers for non-us companies too? From the article it's not really clear.

<comment><USER45> They do.

Specially for non-US companies, I'd say.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I find the second apostrophe awkward and awful.

</comment><comment><USER47> And if you live in a "obscure" country were they don't accept online payments you have to send them a Fax with all your credit card information... yeah, a fax! Even Amazon and Paypal accept online payments with my cc. I guess I am lucky they didn't ask for a telegram. So much for one of the biggest companies in the world.

<comment><AUTHOR> A fax? Is that not breaking a data protection law?

<comment><USER47> Maybe? I just needed an iOS developer certificate. I lack resources to start an international lawsuit against them anyway.</comment></comment></comment>


A Google Interviewing Story - <AUTHOR> http://paultyma.blogspot.com/2010/11/google-interviewing-story.html <comment><USER2> I enjoy clever ways of approaching problems as much as the next guy, but I would never ding someone in an interview for not coming up with a clever- enough solution. Good software engineering is maybe 99.7% failure-avoidance and 0.3% cleverness. On very rare occasions you need a clever solution, but most of the time you need to solve the problem in a way that you're 100% sure will work, has no nasty failure conditions, and that other competent engineers will understand. If there's no other good solution, or if every bit/cycle matters, then you get to try to be clever, but that happens pretty rarely. I've seen way, way too many problems caused by people using clever solutions for problems that had straightforward-but-less-fun solutions. (And as has been pointed out plenty of times already here, the clever solution in this case is less optimal than a more straightforward one would be). If an interviewer seemed intent on proving they were more clever than me, or on trying to get me to throw out unnecessarily-clever solutions to straightforward problems, it would be a pretty big turnoff.

<comment><USER3> I doubt that the interviewer mentioned the prime number solution due to insufficient cleverness in the original solution. The answered O(n+m) solution actually contains flaws beyond its lack of cleverness. 1) there's no good reason to use a hash map, hashing is useful in maps for mapping an unevenly distributed set from a large an arbitrarily large space to an evenly distributed set from an arbitrarily small space. The space is only 26 characters so why hash? You can simply use a map (no hash needed), and in this case there's even a very natural way to get indices into an array (index(c) = c - 'a').

Now it's true, that these are both linear time solutions simply with different factors and we might simply say who cares. The thing about the prime solution is that it's actually really dumb itself and I think that's what Guy really wanted you to tell him. He was pointing out that you could leverage the smallness of your data and hoping the interviewee would come up with an even better way to leverage this fact.

The first thing we should notice is that asymptotic bounds are misplaced here if you consider how such a function might actually be used. The strings are basically being used as sets that is AA might as well be A as far as our answer is concerned. So assuming people aren't giving us stupid data (and in an interview you could mention a way to make this assumption true). The strings shouldn't ever have duplicates and thus shouldn't ever be bigger than 26 characters (otherwise they contain all of the characters and the answer is independent). So if a solution has runtime n + m + c, that c actually starts to matter.

The thing about the primes solution is that multiplication and modulo operations are actually very expensive and all you want to keep track of is whether you've seen a character (1 bit of information) so you should really use a bitmap for this. And since it so happens that 26 < 32 these will fit very nicely in a single int. It's even a pretty nice implementation: <https://gist.github.com/707639>

[edit: link to code]

<comment><USER4> With your solution, I might have not accepted you to do job because it is obvious you don't have experience with Unicode and localization.

<comment><USER5> that's outside the scope of the problem. (which is why I really dislike these kinds of tests, because you can't win - if you don't consider unicode the interviewer says "ahh, but what about unicode" and if you do the interviewer says "ahh, but that's outside the scope of the problem".)

<comment><USER6> The right way to approach this is to clarify the requirements. "Should I consider unicode?" will get you points with the interviewer, and will allow you to quickly clarify the scope of the question.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> In my life I never got interviewed, even if it is 15 years I work as a programmer. Now I work at VMware thanks to Redis, and VMware did not requested an interview, and my only previous not-self-employed position 10 years ago was likewise triggered by my work on hping.

But, I'm sure, I would suck so much at this kind of interviews. If you are anything like me you'll understand what I mean, in topics where I work day by day I've pretty much the control of what the good solution can be in a few minutes, but for many things to find the best solution requires, at least for me, days of thinking, sleeping, possibly waking up with the solution in mind, to find it's wrong and you need to reiterate the process.

My design abilities are all there, in this days. I'm sure that in the five minutes race I would say many times something of super stupid. Now my question is, are the five-minutes performances really linked to the three days thinking about your problem solution?

Isn't it possible that at least a subset of guys that will get the few-days answer well, will instead provide a poor answer in little time, and sometimes the other way around?

If this can be somewhat true, there is a huge industry selecting runners for 100 meters, in order to run, most of the times, a maraton.

</comment><comment><USER8> The prime multiplication is a pretty bad solution. It's actually O(n log n) rather than O(n), since you have to use some form of big integer, and multiplying a size-n number by a constant is O(log n). It is also needlessly complicated.

<comment><USER9> Yeah, I don't get the interest in this answer. It's neat-but-useless.

<comment><USER10> It's just one anecdote, but it also seems like the kind of thing that happens in companies that grow fast and have trouble maintaining quality in their hiring process. Instead of hiring true cleverness, they hire for someone who feigns the trappings of cleverness (smart enough to regurgitate a "clever" solution that turns out not to be practical in the real world.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> My last internship in college involved working on thermostat systems for Honeywell with a bunch of people who had been there their entire professional careers. I didn't have much interest in becoming a lifer and ended up interviewing with a couple other companies, including Microsoft.

I interviewed for a Program Management position in the Visual Studio group. My first interview was with the Design Manager for the VS product line. Her final question for me was about building an effective temperature control system for a new house. I launched into a 5 minute analysis of the advantages and disadvantages of a wide range of HVAC systems, obvious ramifications from open floor plans, and so on.

A month later, we sat down for lunch as co-employees for the first time, and I told her the whole story. She got a big laugh out of it. I guess she didn't realize that's what I'd spent the last few months working on.

<comment><USER12> Your interviewer didn't read your resume?

<comment><USER11> She did, but I hadn't been super-specific about what I'd been working on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Angry because neither the hash table or the prime multiplication would be as fast as a boolean array indexed by the char value. As an added bonus, the boolean array actually makes the most intuitive sense.

<comment><USER5> the boolean array indexed by char effectively _is_ a hashtable isn't it? where the hashing algorithm is index = ord(theChar).

<comment><USER14> Yes, that's correct.

<comment><USER5> thanks :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Stories like this and the comments that follow just reinforces my belief that I am no where near smart enough to work with most of you guys.

Plus I'll never wear leather pants. That can't be comfortable.

<comment><USER16> Well, look at the bright side. You're now smarter 'by this question' - You can be rest assured that if you're ever asked this question, you'll be able to answer it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> If you are ever asked an interview question which you've already answered in a previous interview, you should tell the interviewer immediately.

I know some coworkers who will intentionally ask a question they know you were asked in a previous interview to test your integrity. (Edit: Not that I would condone this practice either.)

These types of interview questions are about evaluating _how you think_ far more than _what you know_. So, more importantly than the risk of getting caught, if you recite an answer from memory and pretend that you're deriving the solution on the fly, you're lying to your future coworker.

<comment><USER18> There is a limit to how open employee should be. Google actually wants employees to keep things to themselves and not to talk about internal stuff to outside world. 100% honesty would make prospective candidate leak internal Google stuff to the outside world. So it's unlikely that interviewers would set up "integrity traps".

<comment><USER19> _100% honesty would make prospective candidate leak internal Google stuff to the outside world._

That doesn't make any sense.

open != honest. Two different things. It's not dishonest to obey a Non Disclosure Agreement, and so you can be perfectly honest person and still not be "open" about matters which you are not authorized to reveal.

<comment><USER18> You forgot about context of my comment. I used "100% honesty" in the sense of "never lie and AND be open". Please re-read original context: "If you are ever asked an interview question which you've already answered in a previous interview, you should tell the interviewer immediately."

"Not talking about your past interview experience" has about the level of openness as "not talking about your corporate experience".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I feel like most engineers rarely have to try too hard to get a decent job, but I wonder if it's because of stories like this. I've been on the interview circuit a handful of times so far in my life, and aside from the first time when I was mostly clueless ("So where do you want to be in 5 years?"; "Man, I never think that far ahead."), I feel like interviews have become a very routine process of answering a similar subset of questions over and over again. Am I being hired because they've made a true evaluation of my technical skills, or was I just serendipitously lucky to have heard the answer to how those 5 pirates are going to split those 100 gold pieces?

<comment><USER21> Probably none of the above. I've heard the interviewer makes up their mind to hire you in the first few seconds of meeting you. Psychology is a strange, strange thing ... but reality is better than fiction.

<comment><USER10> Never underestimate the influence of narcissism in hiring, manifested as the kind of blink decision you describe. Teams in a large company develop a personality and culture that more often than not extends to attributes that have less to do with skill and competence and more to do with similarity of physical characteristics and outside interests. (The degenerate case is flat out nepotism, but the more typical case is a team of people fitting a core profile--5'10" 30-something males from second tier colleges, or taller-than- average mustachioed conservatives.)

Most large company hiring practices are not so much a selection of specific traits as they are a filter for ensuring a lack of negative traits. When you factor in the bias of narcissism in interviewers, you'll get competent people who are skillful at reflecting the interviewers' traits back at them (such as the author, who didn't demonstrate incompetency with his first answer, but aced the interview by reflecting the cleverness the interviewer must have self-identified with as "Google material".) After a certain point, four or seven or nine layers of interview will certainly guarantee the incompetent ones don't get through, but at the same time it will also select for the kind of highly adaptable social personality that is often found in political operators.

<comment><USER22> My go to story to describe this involves a guy who was a EMT. He spent his interviews describing his life as an EMT, and rarely dealing with any meaningful technical discussions. He was offered a ton of jobs....

I saw something similar with a badly underqualified sys-admin who had been in marine recon before embarking on a technical career. He had zero issues finding a high paying job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I have been in a similar situation, where one interview's curveball ended up being asked in a subsequent interview. I went through the same emotions as the author (including resisting the urge to grin from ear to ear). But like an idiot, I answered with the trick answer right away (though I was calm about it). I then told the interviewer that I had learnt it in a previous interview. It turned out he was looking for the clever answer too; and he was disappointed that I knew it. Maybe he felt I wasn't sufficiently "excited" about the clever answer, but I never got the job. Which is not too bad, since that outfit wasn't my first choice anyways.

</comment><comment><USER24> I was asked that exact same question over a phone interview.

One of the most interesting questions given to me was, write an algorithm such that given four colors and a rectangle, fill the rectangle with a gradient using a color in each corner. After the fact it wasn't very hard, but having never thought about such a problem, it was pretty difficult white boarding it out. It was a pretty good question because I think that most people aren't thinking or preparing for such a problem, instead opting to study arrays, linked lists, trees, sorting algorithms and running time. You really get to see how a person thinks with it.

</comment><comment><USER25> Multiplication and division are o(log n) operations.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've had something similar happen to me at a Microsoft interview. The interviewer asked me a question I explicitly knew the answer to, and it too wasn't "my" answer to the problem but the one I've heard in another interview. So I just told him: "I know this one. Can you ask me something else?" He told me he appreciated my honesty, and didn't have any other questions.

I got the job.

</comment><comment><USER21> Personally, I would be more inclined to hire a person picking the "throw it in a hash and look it up" solution over any more complex solution. My reasoning is that bad programmers tend to get lost in nuance, or don't understand a problem. Good programmers tend to reason through the proportionate value of a problem. I'm not saying nuance is always a bad thing, but it's probably not what your company is developing unless you work for a math department.

</comment><comment><USER27> I hate such stupid tricks, frankly a hash table or an array for a restricted domain is way faster, since the whole data structure gets cached on the L1.

I can solve the same problem by using statistical thermodynamics, and show its only o(1), since each string is a configuration of the system and finding common alphabets is like finding degenerate states.

<comment><USER28> How could you do this in O(1)? Or are you saying you can get a probably right answer in O(1)?

<comment><USER29> It's impossible to do in O(1) in the worst case, because you have to at least examine all the input (e.g., if the input matches the regex AA*B.)

<comment><USER28> That was my thought process, but the parent of my post claimed he could do it in O(1) (actually, he claimed it in o(1), but I'm assuming he just typo'd). Hence my question.

<comment><USER27> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> The point of the story is not the actual problem that author had to solve, which we have been discussing (but again, its _hacker_ news, after all :-)), but basically to tell how interviewing experience, even at which you fail, prepare you for better.

</comment><comment><USER31> Hum, Guy's solution is really terrible, division, multiplication and modulo are very expensive operations, and completely unnecessary here. This is basically a case of "I'm clever and you must think like me to be in my team". Uh no thanks.

</comment><comment><USER32> It is strange how every time someone interviews at Google they feel compelled to write "their" story and share it with the internet.

How many stories like this are out there now? Hundreds?

</comment><comment><USER33> I paused a bit before reading about the possible solutions, and actually thought of the (prime number) solution the interviewer came up with.

I realise that this is a bit of redundant post .. but, as a person who isn't a brilliant coder I surprised myself. But then again, after reading the comments here - I think maybe I just have an obtuse way of thinking about things.

</comment><comment><USER34> I'm guessing that the guy in the leather pants probably got the idea from reading about Godel numbering. If you're interested in this, you might like this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Godels-Proof-Ernest- Nagel/dp/081475816...](http://www.amazon.com/Godels-Proof-Ernest- Nagel/dp/0814758169)

</comment><comment><USER35> > _"Given that our range of characters is limited."_

i think what matters is that characters are enumerable, not finite?

<comment><USER36> Yes, if your code is going to run on an Turing Machine that actually has infinite tape.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Leather pants turn a good story into a great story.

</comment><comment><USER33> Leather pants in an academic setting always makes me think of Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park.

</comment><comment><USER38> I kind of wish that he didn't emphasize the 'women engineer', would've kinda gotten the picture when he starts using she.

Maybe we'll get there someday...</comment>


'Brinicle' ice finger of death - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/15835014

<comment><USER2> The video is amazing. There is more information in the link at the bottom of the article: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/15835017></comment>


⛅ Amp-what: quick, interactive reference of 14,500 HTML character entities - <AUTHOR> http://www.amp-what.com

<comment><USER2> Wow, cool. Works great for things like "sun" and "snow" and "smile." 🙌

It would be nice if you could select and copy a character without it popping up the larger version of that character. And once you close that interstitial, it would be nice not to lose your place on the page. Great stuff!

</comment><comment><USER3> You are busting a lot of animation frames which makes the keyboard input janky. Chrome CPU profiler showed each a few event handlers taking ~250ms each. Try splitting this work into smaller chunks or using a Web Worker.</comment>