Apple's service program for butterfly keyboard MacBooks, even out of warranty - green-eclipse https://support.apple.com/keyboard-service-program-for-mac-notebooks <comment><AUTHOR> After months of suffering with this, with an out warranty 15" MBP 2016 that was relegated to desk duty with an external keyboard, I heard about this program. I made an Apple Store appointment for the next day (a Tuesday); they checked it, warned me it could be a week or more because of a holiday that week. Thursday morning I had a call that it was ready. Total cost: $0 (according to the invoice the parts were over $800, including a mainboard replacement to fix a loose USB-C port). It was a basically new machine when I got it back.

I'm still sore over this kbd design, but its otherwise been a good laptop and their no-questions-asked handling of it was great.

<comment><USER2> Apple's repair service, and the Apple Store in general, have gotten much better in the last six months or so.

Two weeks ago I brought my Apple Watch in for an out-of-warranty repair on a Thursday night. I was told it would take 10 business days. It was ready the following Tuesday.

<comment><USER3> You think so? I remember back in university, Apple would overnight ship my laptop to fix it. The last time I went to Apple, they wouldn't even replace my faulty charger without me complaining to the manager.

<comment><USER4> My daughter was in the Apple store the other day with a faulty charger. (It wasn't the problem she went to ask about.) They wouldn't even speak to her about the problem she wanted to talk about until they went and got a new charger for her. They said it was just better to get that out of the way first. So her experience was excellent.

How is everyone's Apple store experience so radically different?

<comment><USER5> I reckon it's at least in part down to how busy the particular store is. The one near me is always absolutely rammed and to be honest the service there isn't exactly great.

<comment><USER6> It's also down to how potentially dangerous something can be. Depending on what actually fails, a charger could electrocute you, and it's cheap to both make and replace ("here's a new one"). A butterfly keyboard won't kill you and it's hell to replace.

<comment> ctrl-j A wall charger is exceedingly unlikely to electrocute you.

Far more likely to burn your house to the ground. Which will still get lawyers and executives to pay attention.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Add to that, that the keycaps break. They have teeny-tiny clips on the top edge, which just break after a while, and they just lift off, sticking to your finger, or just shift slightly, enough not to 'click' when you press them.

I'm not a particularly heavy typist (though it sounds like it on the butterfly keyboard, compared to my previous 2013 macbbok pro), but I've now had about 8 keycaps replaced in the lasst year.

edit: OK I was going to edit out the multiple-letters, but not this time, as this is actually quite typical of typing on this 2016 mbp, so illustrates the problem.

<comment><USER8> Serious question: how much force do you type with?

The reason I ask is that I see many, many people stab laptop keyboards with a ridiculous amount of force. It actually bothers me like someone is banging on my skull, particularly for the bad keyboards you have (which includes the latest MBP).

I learned to touch type in high school. At first, believe it or not, it was with manual typewriters. These actually require a lot of force, so much so that once you go to a computer keyboard (or even an electronic typewriter) there's really no going back.

Low-profile keyboards (including laptops) need the lightest amount of touch to register a tap. Low profile also needs very little travel.

At my best I could probably type at 70+ wpm. I haven't measured in awhile but it's probably worse (with sufficient accuracy). Coding uses a lot of symbols that a QWERTY keyboard just isn't optimized for (and typing speed doesn't tend to be the limiting factor anyway).

In years and years of coding and typing on computer keyboards I've had almost zero problems with RSI or carpal tunnel or any of that. When I was typing much more (vs coding) with standard keyboards, I actually did get a little sensitivity/soreness along my ulna and the outer edge of my hand (going up to my pinky finger). It had the feeling of being inflamed (in that something cold on it relieved it). But after decades of typing that's it. And I haven't had that in years. That's pretty good.

Anyway, bringing this back around... I wonder how many keyboard reliability and RSI issues can be attributed to essentially "bad" typing habits like too much force.

<comment><USER9> Even without a lot of force, the new MacBook keyboards just _sound_ like they're being abused and typed on with a ton of force. I make a conscious effort to type softly. My typing speed suffers a bit, but I don't get the anxiety that sometimes is triggered from typing hard and my body assuming I'm in some crunch mode.

I have a 2015 MacBook Pro and while there's noise when I type, you can barely hear it. I've used my SO's 2018 MacBook Pro with the new keyboard and it sounds (and feels) like I'm putting a ton of force on the keys when I'm not.

It's simply a flaw with the new keyboards. They're loud and fragile. It seems both of these criticisms are met with equal hatred amongst the community.

I'd like to add that the old MacBook keyboards can take quite the beating. I've seen people using 2011 and 2012 MacBooks while practically pounding on the keyboard and they have never had issues. I occasionally type hard on mine as well, but I've never had a fear of breaking the keyboard. I'm too hesitant to blame the way someone types when A) the keyboard is clearly a regression in feel, sound, and durability as well as B) the way people have typed hasn't been much of an issue with MacBooks in the past.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My report:

I just got a new MacBook Air a few weeks ago, to replace an aging MacBook Air. Retina display is a huge upgrade, and USB C is great (I don't miss the mag safe charger as much as I thought I would). The keyboard though ...

Week 1: For the first week the keyboard was great (although more clacky sounding than the older model).

Week 2: The R key started misfiring. Press the R key 10 times, you only get 8 Rs on screen.

Week 3: I was about to bring it in to get replaced, but then the R key started working again.

Great that Apple has acknowledged the issue, and as soon as the R key misbehaves again, I will be bringing my MacBook Air in for repair.

The misfiring, along with the clacking noise makes the overall experience of the newer keyboard feel "cheaper" than it's predecessors.

<comment><USER11> I recently got a new MBP as a graduation gift and had the same experience with you. Everything was going great until about a month in when the space bar started randomly double pressing, sometimes putting periods mid sentence. It's in the shop now. Coming from using an already pre-owned Thinkpad Yoga for many years with a perfect keyboard, this is crazy for a product like this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Rumour now has it that Apple will make the almost unprecedented move of abandoning this keyboard design [1]. Technically, they might be replacing it with a newer design (vs the old chiclet keys which IMHO were actually great) but still...

One can't help but note the timing of Johnny Ive leaving with this move. If it comes to pass (and it is just a rumour at this point and there are a lot of false Apple rumours because clickbait).

Johnny Ive does seem to be obsessed with thinness to the point of ludicrousness. It's said design is the art of compromise and any design is a compromise. To me the 2010+ Macbook Air was essentially a "perfect" laptop. Powerful enough, with enough ports but also quite cheap (under $1500) and light. Size, weight, cost and power are all axes for compromise. This was largely replaced with the 12" Macbook, which sacrificed pretty much everything to shave off another millimeter or two. One USB-C port.

It's almost unprecedented that this form factor (13" Macbook Air) would be resurrected yet it was. Is this tantamount to an admission of error with the 12" Macbook? Was it effectively a rebuke of Johnny Ive's "thinness above all else" philosophy? Is the new keyboard (if it happens) a furhter admission of error?

I don't know of course but I'm hopeful that the current trend of terrible Apple design will reverse.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/4/20682079/apple- butterfly-s...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/4/20682079/apple-butterfly- switch-scissor-switch-2019-macbook-air-2020-macbook-pro)

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm a little surprised anyone is surprised by this story. Apple has a long history of making questionable engineering decisions that end making their products nigh unusable and then steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the issue until evidence becomes too hard to deny. It happened with the iMacs multiple times, with the phones multiple times, with the MacBooks multiple times... By now we should know and not give them the unreasonable amount of credit we, but I should really say the tech press, gives them.

<comment><USER13> The "tech press" - even the Apple press were complaining about the quality of the keyboards from day one. In John Gruber's initial review when they first came out he said he didn't like them as did Marco Arment. They are two of the most well known Apple pundits. At least Marco slso complained about the iMac monitors before he got the iMac Pro.

Gruber doesn't upgrade his computers as often as Marco but he does usually get review units. So he doesn't get to comment on long term issues with them. He famously still uses a 20 year old Apple ADB keyboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I would love to know how much this whole keyboard disaster has cost Apple, in constant replacement costs (material, man hours) and reputation/lost sales. The stubbornness to have stuck with this for half a decade is what fascinates me.

<comment><USER15> Can there be any doubt this is what precipitated Ive's departure? This keyboard is a disaster. They ended up replacing the entire inside of my laptop when my space bar broke. Then I had the logic board replaced again a few months ago after it was bricked by an update. Worst computer I've ever owned and I've owned the likes of e-machines, gateway and cheap netbooks back in the day. Each repair exceeded the cost of AppleCare. I'm basically on my third laptop with the original case and I don't think my situation is as bad as some of the other people complaining on HN. They've probably lost significant money on these MBPs in addition to the market share they've ceded to Dell and Lenovo.

<comment><USER16> > Can there be any doubt this is what precipitated Ive's departure?

That this precipitated his departure is doubtful.

Ive has had one foot out the door for a few years.

<comment><USER15> This keyboard has been a disaster for a few years. If it's true that Ive was the one pushing it then it would be ignorant to think that this failure hasn't had an impact on his standing within the company. This is a massive failure. We are talking about a part that experiences more physical wear and tear than any other in the computer and that requires a logic board replacement as part of the repair process. That's absurd. How do you think it impacts the margin when a significant number of units are coming in for one or more repairs? Executives get fired for these kinds of failures all the time. Depending on some of the dynamics behind the scenes, I might want him out for this or at least put on a leash if I'm on the board.

<comment><USER14> A lot of Ive's later designs have been a disaster.

I dropped my iPhone XS Max from a tiny height. It being made out of (not great) glass, the backside immediately shattered. Oh well. What shocked me was how incredibly stupid the phone was put together. The back glass (unlike the front where the screen is!) can not be replaced without replacing the whole phone.

The whole case you mean?

No. The. Whole. Phone.

"Thankfully" Apple was kind enough to only charge me $500 for the replacement phone rather than the $1300 it cost to begin with. But one thing I can assure you. I will never buy a (in total) $1800 phone again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I have two generations of the butterfly keyboard and I can say that the version with a silicone membrane is vastly superior. The keys feel much better, they rattle less for virtually silent typing.

iFixit found that the membrane also made a big difference in terms of limiting the impact of dust: [https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/19/17592138/i...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/7/19/17592138/ifixit- apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-anti-dust-membrane-update-teardown)

I have sent two of the pre-membrane keyboards in for repair, but haven't had an issue with this new one. I haven't tried the one or two revisions since the membrane has been added, which are reported to be better still.

<comment><USER18> I have a 2016 13" MBP which I believe does not have the membrane. Any idea if they'd replace it with a membrane version of the keyboard or if they would just put in the exact same one as before?

<comment><USER17> Unfortunately, I can say with near certainty they would not put a newer keyboard in an older machine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Will this make my 13" 2016 MBP better? I don't have any permanently "sticky" keys but on occasion something gets in there and the key feels weird for an hour or two before it somehow "clears" itself out. If I went through the trouble of sending in my laptop, would the keyboard be replaced with a newer keyboard with the "membrane" or would they just slap the exact same keyboard in?

</comment><comment><USER19> This was the case with my 2015 MacBook a couple of years ago. The "geniuses" were refusing to fix the keyboard free of charge until they realized I was aware of the law suite and their attitude suddenly changed to "we will fix it for free because we have a great customer support". I garantee there are people who didn't know better and paid for it. And I highly doubt that "it's a small percentage of the customers" affected as that page claims.

<comment><USER20> I don't understand why the workers would do that. There is no incentive for them to get you to pay for it. I worked retail for 8ish years and I was usually as good to the customer as my company would allow. It would be bizarre for me to try to hoodwink a customer out of a free repair I am authorized to provide, because I felt some bizarre loyalty to my corporation.

<comment><USER19> I suspect that it was because at that stage Apple was still in denial about the issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Why is this being reposted? Has something changed recently or is it the same as before? I'd like them to extend it beyond four years to be honest, would go some way towards making up for this sh __design

<comment><USER22> It keeps expanding to more and older MacBooks

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Ugh. I really want to upgrade my 2014 mba. Four gigs of ram doesn't cut it anymore and my eyes have grown tired of the screen. I love the size, battery life, I just don't know what to get next.

<comment> 52-6F-62 There are a lot of refurb 2015 MBP's on the market since many people upgraded to newer machines. They're the last run before the butterfly keyboard, you can find up to 16GB memory and 512GB storage—some of them with dedicated video as well (if the 15" size is what you're after). And substantially cheaper than new models.

Mind you I think this is t he run with the battery issue.....

<comment><USER24> I didn't know there were 16GB options. I thought I got the best last generation MBA at 8gb and 512. It's my primary machine and I still love it.

<comment><USER25> I have a MBP 13" 2015 with 16 GB RAM and a MBP 15" 2015 with 16 GB RAM. The 13" was actually bought in begin of 2017.

<comment><USER24> Ah, as I wrote in the other comment it must have been my mistake, not checking the actual store and just going straight to the refurb store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> green-eclipse To be clear, according to Apple, these keyboard repairs are free.

<comment><USER26> My time isn't free. The fact that I have to deal with this at all makes me never want to buy another Mac and I have been a heavy user for at least 20 years. Super annoyed.

<comment><USER27> This. I have 7 distinct repairs so far. Every one of these involves a back up, checking in at the Apple Store, explaining what the issue is, having the staff run "diagnostics" only to find nothing wrong with the computer, my having to tell them that this has become routine and that I want them to take my computer in for repairs, having them call me back a few days later with a repaired computer, retrieving the computer, reinstalling the image.

I just want my money back.

<comment><USER28> It sounds like the "diagnostics" are faulty. If they ended up fixing your problems (as suggested by your "distinct repairs" comments, so they can't have just sat on the device for a phone days then said "yep, we fixed it") then it sounds like they do further tests once they've accepted it for repair, and where those tests highlight a genuine problem, in which case they should probably do those tests initially instead, or at least not make you have to argue with someone at the store when you've already had to stop work, get it to the store etc.

<comment><USER29> The goal of their diagnostics is to a.) upsell/make you pay up for "repairs" you may or may not need b.) avoid doing work under warranty

Same shit for car dealers and other places involving consumer goods. This all driven by corporate setting quotas for employees to meet (knowing full well they can't be met unless certain non-spoken shortcuts are taken...).

<comment><USER30> No it's not. The diagnostics are just basic, front-level diagnostics that they do for all machines to check off a few boxes. It's unfortunate when you're in the small percentage of people that have an uncommon problem but their current diagnostic system lets them accommodate and repair 99% of the issues people come in for quickly with 1st tier repair staff. It's not ideal but they're not trying to screw you over. Apple has some of the best and most highly rated support in the industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'll be holding on to my 2012 MacBook Pro until they switch to a different kind of keyboard. If they don't, then I'm getting a Surface instead.

<comment><USER32> If you don't care about the default telemetry and ads, switch to Windows 10 with WSL. I was a die hard Mac user for a decade and since switching I haven't looked back. Windows is a different beast than it was 10 years ago, and having the whole ecosystem of hardware and software at your disposal is fantastic.

<comment><USER33> I still am trying to figure out what WSL has solved for anyone. It works fine for the little tutorials they use to showcase it, but on any real project it is just as bad as what many of us have had to do for the last 10 years if we were stuck with Windows: use a VM with all the problems it brings like using extra CPU and memory, poor filesystem performance, duplicating tools and configs in both the Windows and Linux environments, etc.

<comment><USER32> I'm not sure what your threshold is for a real project, but I've been using it for multi-stack dev environments with no trouble at all for the past year. You shouldn't use it to host a production environment, but I'm not sure why you would want to. What it solves is you don't have to use the minority, poorly supported windows ports of your language runtime, _if_ it even has one. Many smaller languages I've tried don't support windows at all, and many NPM libraries have terrible bugs in windows (hard coding posix paths/environment variables, etc). WSL allows you to skip all of that trouble and use windows without changing any of your workflows or having to learn a totally new shell. The upcoming 2.0 release should be even better.

<comment><USER33> I'm definitely not running a production environment. But imagine this scenario:

I've got my Linux shell with various tools like GIt, JDK, NPM, NVM, Maven, etc. All the config files are setup in my Linux home in the VM. But the whole point of WSL is that I can use the nice GUIs available on Windows. So now I've SourceTree for Git, IntelliJ, WebStorm, etc running on Windows. And they all need the same tools installed like maven, Git, JDK, etc.

First problem is that the I now have to duplicate all the tools in both Windows and Linux - all sorts of fun problems when they get out of sync. Same with the config files which are always screwing up due to differences in line endings and path slashes.

But the worst of all is performance. If I compile some huge multi-module Scala and Java project completely in native Windows, it takes five minutes. Doing it in WSL bash takes 15 minutes. And having my IDE in Windows doing it on the code that's on the Linux WSL filesystem takes 60 minutes, assuming it even works with all the path and line ending problems as the tools are sometimes called in Windows, sometimes called in Linux.

Exact same problems with python apps, Node apps, and everything else that is common these days.

It's absolutely no better than what I did 10 years ago when I had my company spend $200 for VMWare Workstation license and I ran Fedora or Ubuntu VMs with Linux, but still tried to use Windows for half the build. Same with Cygwin...

<comment><USER32> > But the whole point of WSL is that I can use the nice GUIs available on > Windows.

I think the point is that you can have a linux environment on your windows machine without running your own VM, not that you can use GUIs for your platform back end. If I just wanted GUIs I would use Mac OS. The real godsend of WSL is that we poor souls who are forced to use windows machines at work can finally have a development environment that isn't a second class citizen (assuming you aren't a windows platform developer). I'm not sure that it's fair to say that WSL doesn't solve anything for anyone just because it doesn't fit your workflow. I run node, haskell, and python in WSL and VSCode remote development extensions provides me with a full featured IDE for each of those environments, along with git integration if I should need it. Usually I just open up a terminal when I need to use git. Anyway, the next version of WSL will host a full linux kernel, so it should be easier to use X forwarding if you need linux-native GUI applications.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Somewhat off-topic pipe dream, but I wish Apple would up their Linux support. I would get one of these [old 13,1] MBPs in a heartbeat to run Ubuntu on it should I be able to put a stock Linux on it. Unfortunately hibernate and audio still do not appear work[0].

[0] [https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

</comment><comment><USER35> Wow. I regularly get repeated "e" keypresses and for the longest time just assumed I was getting worse at typing (even though it was only "e"...). Glad to see it's an actual thing and I'm not crazy. Yes I probably should've Googled it but it wasn't that much of a nuisance

<comment><USER36> This has been the perfect solution to my double press problems. [https://unshaky.nestederror.com](https://unshaky.nestederror.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> On a related note, has anyone else had issues with the iPad Smart Keyboard after 15+ months?

Bought mine for the 10.5 iPad Pro and at some point I started getting Accessory Not Recognized messages, then it would stop working unless I removed and reattached it, then it finally died entirely.

There are reports of similar experiences in the Apple Support Communities and on Reddit, and Apple reportedly created a program to replace some of the keyboards [1]. But when I contacted Apple I was told my keyboard was out of warranty — effectively $180 of electronic waste after just over one year of use.

[1] [https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/17/05/08/apple- offe...](https://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/17/05/08/apple-offers-free- ipad-pro-smart-keyboard-repairs-in-wake-of-functional-issues)

<comment><USER38> Sounds like the trouble with old NES cartridges: corroded contacts. (They sometimes started working when you reseated them enough times, because moving them in and out of the connector was scraping off a little bit of the corrosion.)

If that's the problem, the real solution should be the same: cleaning the keyboard's contact pads (and maybe the iPad's contact pads as well) with a q-tip and a bit of isopropyl alcohol.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> My daughter wants a Macbook when she leaves for college next month- no Apple store within a 8-hour drive. Does anyone have experience getting this type of stuff fixed through whatever arrangement Apple has with a typical University? Is Applecare an absolute requirement in this type of situation?

<comment> X-Istence Apple doesn't typically have an arrangement with a university. Apple does allow you to send the device in/get it shipped back to you though if there is an issue. There may also be a certified Apple repair store near your daughters university.

<comment><USER40> Depends on the University. UT Austin does have such an official relationship with Apple -- I knew the guy who did all that work, and he had 30 years worth of certification on various hardware and software from Apple.

He was also the guy who was certified and licensed to do all that same kind of work on Dell. He spent > 90% of his time working on Dell stuff, and was very happy when he got a call to come work on Apple stuff.

Yup, one guy for the entire campus of 50,000+ students, and 20,000+ faculty and staff. It amazed me, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> In the list of eligible models:

"MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2019, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports)"

I'm certain they previously would have specified that model with "Touchbar" rather than the number of thunderbolt ports...

RIP Touchbar!

<comment><USER40> Of course, that also means that they are killing at least one or two of the Thunderbolt 3 ports.

Because there's no way they'd add one or more T3 ports on top of already having four of them.

So, maybe you don't want to be so glad to see that designation.....

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Ok! this is least they could do, and it's something that I'd appreciate and expect from a company like Apple. Finally!

They could really recognize this problem earlier.

</comment><comment><USER43> I'm quite glad I've held onto my mid-2012 15 inch mbp all these years. I had the latest 2019 model for a job and it was a distinct downgrade. The 2012 model isn't much heavier or slower, has all the ports I need, and they keyboard feels relatively solid. I hope Apple will come to their senses and pull an iPhone SE, releasing the design from 2012 with updated internals. FaceID would make it perfect.

<comment><USER44> Yes! I have a 2011 MBP that is going strong. I never had a problem with it. My 2018 MBP from work has been switched out twice because of the keyboard and the screen just going dead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'm not sure I have an issue, because I always use an external keyboard. Will Apple still fix my keyboard, or does it have to exhibit some issue?

</comment><comment><USER46> Dropped mine in earlier this week at a London Store. Currently a 7-10 day turnaround for repairs.

</comment><comment><USER47> > The program covers eligible ... models for 4 years after the first retail > sale of the unit.

After 4 years, if you then pay to have the keyboard replaced, do you get an additional 4 year warranty on the keyboard?

</comment><comment><USER48> Does this entail a replacement keyboard with their "new" keyswitches or just service if you happen to have a key start sticking?

</comment><comment><USER49> Dang, I bought AppleCare just for this issue.

But then again, the peace of mind I get for the next few years is probably worth it.

</comment><comment><USER50> I don't know a single person who likes these keyboards or the Touch Bar.

</comment><comment><USER51> I'm impressed that Apple would continue to replace devices without a warranty. Really shows their dedication to their customers, not many other companies would continue to drop so much money on devices they don't have to support.

<comment><USER52> They're being threatened with/ have multiple class actions underway about these keyboards not being "fit for purpose", spent months, years denying that it was a problem. I'd slow down on the cheerleading just a little.</comment></comment>


We have a king - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/30/world/europe/netherlands-abdication/?hpt=hp_t2

<comment><USER2> What a sad affair to see people born into positions of power in this day and age. Ashamed to be Dutch today. Ik Willem Niet.

<comment><USER3> Barbara Bush sort of seems to agree with you, but Jeb hasn't weighed in. Yes, W and Jeb had to run for their offices, but if you believe that they'd have made it past the House without that name (and Reagan's fortuitous VP choice in 1980), I think that you need to reconsider.

The other question is whether inherited weath, without considering the question of political office, confers power. I'd be inclined to say so.</comment></comment>


CartoDB: Map and Analyze Location Data - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/CartoDB/cartodb <comment><AUTHOR> Examples: [https://cartodb.com/gallery/](https://cartodb.com/gallery/)</comment>


Tesla misses production target by 15% - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36702429 <comment><USER2> The article is a bit confusing. Tesla produced more than 18k cars, but delivered 14k cars. So strictly speaking it was not the production but delivery target that got missed. There are some connections of course, if they had managed to ramp up production quicker, delivery could have progressed more. Production rates are said to have hit 2k cars per week in the last weeks.

In any case, this means that about 4k Teslas are currently in transit to their customers. The European Model X deliveries just started, so this would account for a lot of transit time, as shipping (literally!) cars takes it time.

<comment><USER3> How about the cars that were on transit from Q1? Did they get counted towards the total in Q2? If yes, then I don't think the article is misleading.

<comment><USER4> Tesla had 2,615 vehicles in transit at the end of Q1, and 5,150 at the end of Q2. So on net there are still 2,535 cars "missing" from the Q2 delivery number.

This chart shows the complete picture: [http://i.imgur.com/NgwxG7Z.png](http://i.imgur.com/NgwxG7Z.png)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> That amounts to trolling. Please don't do that here.

Substantive criticism is fine, offhand flamebait isn't.

Edit: looks like I misunderstood the comment [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12032290](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12032290), so will detach this subthread and mark it off-topic instead. Sorry!

<comment><USER6> I think you're misinterpreting his statement. I think he's noting that missing production targets is better than rushing through production and then shipping poorly manufactured cars

<comment><USER7> I certainly thought it was misinterpreted, too. Although it is reasonable to interpret the statement both ways, why do we often assume the least charitable interpretation? Maybe it is best to ascertain a comment's intent first.

Could've been trolling. Seems like responding with "do you mean x or y?" would've been more constructive, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is anyone surprised? Tesla and SpaceX have almost always missed their timeline goals. This is their MO. They do, however, always produce what they say they will.

<comment><USER9> I wonder why you're being downvoted. As far as I can tell, you're exactly right. They make amazing stuff and you can usually (even if not always) count on them doing what they say they will... but do _not_ put any faith in timelines.

<comment><USER10> 30 days ago you said they are producing 100,000 cars a year. You were quite confident then:

"They've sold well over 100,000 cars. The current total is around 140,000. They project 80,000 or 90,000 this year, with a slow start, so I think their current rate is 100,000 if not higher."

You shrugged off getting to 100,000 cars as no more difficult than other periods of time: " mikeash 26 days ago

Going from 2,700 to 22,000 in 12 months sounds difficult too, as does going from 22,000 to 32,000 and from 32,000 to 50,000.'

<comment><USER9> They built over 18,000 cars this quarter. They say half of that was done in the last four weeks of the quarter. That's 9,000 cars in four weeks, 2,250 cars per week, for an annualized rate of about 117,000/year.

Seems like my confidence was completely warranted.

<comment><USER11> >do not put any faith in timelines

<comment><USER9> In general that is totally true. They'll say 6 months and it's really 12. They'll say a year and it's really two or three. And I have no confidence in their stated objective of producing 500,000 cars in 2018. But when talking about the _current_ production rate, that's hardly a "timeline" and doesn't much involve guessing the future.

I will admit that these sales numbers don't really look like a missed timeline. It is definitely a theme with these companies, but doesn't seem to apply here.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Missing production target is OK. Shipping crappy cars is not OK.

<comment><USER13> A Tesla Model S is about the furthest possible thing from a "crappy car".

<comment><USER14> Eh... by all accounts, it's pretty 'crappy' compared to other vehicles in its class. Lots of recurring issues that seem to have eluded quality control.

While I think it's mostly a symbolic gesture, it's clear from the fact that Elon has set up an office for himself (with a cot for sleeping) at the end of the Tesla production line that he agrees there is a lot of room for improvement in the quality of their cars.

It's easy to make 100 cars well. It's much harder to make 10,000 cars well.

<comment><USER15> I'm not a fan of the Tesla brand/vehicles and I have a number of criticisms for the Model S but I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'crappy.' I think more appropriate phrases would be "not fully refined" and "unpolished."

The cars work, and work well. The important systems are handled properly, if they weren't I'd be complaining about them. Quality control is a hard thing to get right at scale, I think the company deserves a little respect for handling the critical systems well.

<comment><USER16> > I'm not a fan of the Tesla brand/vehicles and I have a number of criticisms > for the Model S but I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'crappy.' I think > more appropriate phrases would be "not fully refined" and "unpolished."

It's "crappy" for a higher end luxury vehicle, not for a car in general. A $70-90k car should be fully refined and quite polished.

<comment><USER17> A lot of those 90k goes towards the battery. That leaves a lot less for perfectly stitched leather upholstery.

<comment><USER16> If the batteries are so expensive they can't have a proper interior it is odd that Tesla ships some models with extra battery capacity for future purchase options:

[http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/5/11597508/tesla- model-s-70-b...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/5/11597508/tesla- model-s-70-battery-upgrade-pay-unlock-battery)

I think the interior is shit because it's hard to do at scale and Tesla hasn't been doing it for very long.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Nice little holiday weekend news dump.

<comment><USER18> Tesla committed to publishing delivery numbers within three days of the end of quarter. They are just keeping with their commitment, not trying to bury this news by releasing it on a holiday weekend.

<comment><USER19> FWIW, it published Q1 numbers on April 4th...which would be 4 days after the end of Q1. April 4th was a Monday. I don't think too many people would critique them for waiting until the 5th of July, the Tuesday after a huge U.S. holiday, to publish news:

[http://ir.tesla.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=963460](http://ir.tesla.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=963460)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> You could put this in a positive light: there is so much demand for their product they can't make enough.

<comment><USER16> That's not a positive light, demand doesn't pay the bills.

<comment><USER21> Of course it does. Talk to a banker, orders and deposits in hand, and see if the bills can't get paid.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> >after the driver of a Tesla car using self-driving technology

seee, this is what naming your driver assist system AutoPilot does, even 'journalist' doesnt know any better.</comment>


Drinking Water Is Staying in Pipes Longer - <AUTHOR> https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/05/water-pipes-infrastructure-shrinking-cities-health/590752/ <comment><USER2> The article doesn't specifically say how much time water spends in pipes, (Minutes? Weeks? Months?) but the linked paper does:

>A utility in North Carolina serving 300,000 customers with 1,100 miles of main calculated water ages ranging from 2 to 75 hours throughout the distribution system using a fluoride tracer study (DiGiano, Travaglia and Zhang 2000).

> A Midwest utility with a service population of 800,000 and 2,750 miles of > main recently found based on a hydraulic model that the water age in the > distribution system was typically less than 80 hours while several sites > exhibited a water age up to 150 hours (Vandermeyden and Hartman 2001).

> One California utility found water ages exceeding 400 hours in certain areas > of the system, particularly dead end areas, under minimum day and average > day demand conditions (Acker and Kraska 2001).

> A Canadian utility serving 24,000 people with 86 miles of main estimated > water age using a hydraulic model and found that dead-end nodes had a water > age ranging from 300 to 600 hours under average day demand conditions > (Prentice 2001).

"How long is too long?" It depends, apparently, on what the pipes are made of, how old they are, how corrosive the water is, (Which is what caused the Flint disaster) etc.

<comment><USER3> Wow. 600 hours is 25 days, that's far too long. The chlorine used to sterilize the supply will be long gone by then.

<comment><USER4> Not necessarily. Many municipal water treatment plants are adding or switching to chloramines, which can be more stable than chlorine gas:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine)

The main problem is that they are potentially more carcinogenic.

The rarely talked about, but potentially more serious problem, is that chlorine and chloramine are difficult to remove from water by letting it stand or boiling it:

[https://www.sfwater.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentID...](https://www.sfwater.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentID=6920)

[https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-boiling-water- rem...](https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-boiling-water-remove- chloramine.857730/)

[https://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_...](https://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_water)

It looks like activated charcoal filters are the best way to neutralize it, but I'm having trouble finding numbers for how effective they are at it.

[https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/3447/what- are-t...](https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/3447/what-are-the- various-ways-to-remove-chlorine-chloramine-from-tap-water)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Our water infrastructure isn't in a shambles just in shrinking cities. It's a disaster everywhere: [https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org](https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org). It's an archetypal example of how the government is bad at setting prices. Water boards respond to public pressure, and as a result set rates too low to be sustainable in the long run: [https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/stretching- water-dollars-f...](https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/stretching-water- dollars-further).

> Despite the challenges posed by shrinking federal investment and rising > costs, America's water systems strive to maintain affordability. As such, > many water systems have historically underpriced the services they provide > to keep water rates low.

The result is a backlog in investment approaching a trillion dollars.

<comment><USER6> This is just a microcosm of problems governments are going to face with shrinking populations.

Another, related problem, is the issue of maintaining state pensions and other entitlement programs.

Social Security in the USA, for example, has a negative ROI. For it to work the government has to take money from younger working people in order to pay for older retired people. As the population shrinks you have less and less young people being forced to support the larger number of retired people.

All these sorts of programs have the same problems. They were designed in a era were it was assumed that people died off as a higher rate and people were born at a faster rate. As those trends gradually reverse then all welfare/entitlement programs are becomingly increasingly insolvent.

....

This sort of stuff is why the Soviets had to institute travel restrictions and a sort of passport system in the USSR; you can't have effective long term government planing with a rapidly shifting population.

<comment><USER7> > Social Security in the USA, for example, has a negative ROI. For it to work > the government has to take money from younger working people in order to pay > for older retired people. As the population shrinks you have less and less > young people being forced to support the larger number of retired people.

You can solve that entire problem with a few years of inflation. There's nothing, in principle, wrong with a guaranteed return-until-you-die investment, as _part_ of a retirement strategy.

It's a smart part of a diverse retirement portfolio (Especially when compared with a 100% commitment to the guaranteed-contribution, variable-return investments of 401ks). I wish I could invest more than 3% of my income into SS - and I _expect_ to take a haircut on that investment.

<comment><USER8> There are inflation indexed annuities that you can invest in. Most 401ks don't have them directly, but when you retire I advise my friends to move some of your saving into them: enough to cover the basic life expenses (insurance, food, rent). Because they are for life they are typically lower return on investment, but they lower the risk of living wrong so they should ensure you can afford at least the basics of life.

<comment><USER7> Sure, and I'll probably look into them, if, by retirement, the world doesn't turn into a Mad Max hell-scape. (Which I am not optimistic about.)

The thing is, all the same risks of Social Security (People living longer than expected, investment returns being lower than expected, a prolonged recession emptying out the fund, inflation turning your guaranteed returns into 'only- good-as-toilet-paper-money') apply to them, but even moreso (Because they cannot count on continued buy-in, unlike Social Security).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I build hydraulic models of water systems for UK utilities (but live in Canada), one of the things we look at in the model besides the performance of the network is the age of water.

In the UK, pipes are sized based on the needs of the domestic demand, while capacity for fire flow is not considered. While in North America the opposite is done, where the network, including capacity in tanks and pressure within the network, must take into account fire flow requirements. (The attached EPA document goes into this in more detail)

While a UK residential street may be supplied by a 100mm main, the same street in the US may need a 200mm main. That's a four-time increase in volume that needs to be turned over in the pipe for just a little street!

I have seen design documents for North American towns requiring flow rates of 50-90l/s to protect a single house. When I tell my colleagues in the UK about this they laugh and ask if I'm joking and if the fire bridge is aiming to simply flatten the house to stop the fire.

Pressures in North American networks are also higher than in the UK, once again to meet fire flow requirements, which leads to higher background leakage and bursts within the network.

High age of water is an issue that will affect most North American water systems regardless of if they are shrinking or growing.

</comment><comment><USER10> As I commented on their own comments section:

The only graphic in this article is "city shrinkage", which is then conflated with water age, which is then related to water problems. But I suspect these things may not be as linearly connected as the authors imply, specifically because of factors like the chemistry of incoming water, as exemplified by the Flint situation.

Also, water systems can have vastly different flow rates, pipe sizes, and other parameters that influence water age, not just population change.

So, is there better data? Can we actually show a relation between city shrinkage, water age, and water problems? If this data exists, why wasn't it presented? If this data doesn't exist, why is a relationship suggested?

<comment><USER11> Water data is hard to come by, not updated frequently, and generally not sampled at the place there want it to be from unfortunately. Lots of water data here: [https://mytapwater.org](https://mytapwater.org) and [https://www.waterqualitydata.us](https://www.waterqualitydata.us)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Isn't the solution to this just to have a connection from tap to sewer if a certain flow rate is not maintained?

<comment><USER6> You would just shift the costs away from maintaining pipes to treating massive amounts of water that would never get used by anybody.

And you will still have to maintain the pipes. Your solution would reduce costs per mile, but you still have a lot of mileage to maintain with a shrinking population.

<comment><USER13> I would believe that there are areas where something like this, perhaps for groundwater recharge, wouldn't be totally crazy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This may be a short-term issue, versus the long-term issue of not having enough fresh water to drink. Scientists have been warning about this for a while now. We can probably advance the technology of purifying water to make it cheaper and more widespread, but we can't solve getting enough fresh water just by inventing a new gadget.

To keep from running out of fresh water, we'd need to stop growing the population, or stave off the amount of water used for agriculture, or re- engineer all our wastewater systems for treatment and reuse, or build massive amounts of expensive desalination plants along with a massive global distribution network. All of these are possible, but we also have to actually start the process before it becomes too painful.</comment>


Arecibo radio telescope goes dark after snapped cable shreds dish - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/arecibo-radio-telescope-goes-dark-after-snapped-cable-shreds-dish <comment><USER2> Scott Manley posted an excellent video with some discussion of this incident, as well as going over some of the major contributions Arecibo has made to science.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V3VCt24tkE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V3VCt24tkE)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is sad. Puerto Rico has already been hit hard so many times. Agree or not, the observatory has a prominent place in pop culture, which helps bring the much needed visitors, and with them, awareness of Space Research and Science in general, in a time when sparking interest in STEM in the next generation is so important.

<comment><USER4> It's tragic. Unfortunately, it's easy to see things like this in terms of a pattern of neglected infrastructure in the US. Puerto Rico in general has been damaged and neglected to a criminal extent - this particular situation will get media attention for a bit, maybe be fixed but that's likely about it.

<comment><USER5> In this case, it's a complex story. NSF has a collection of astronomical observatories (optical and radio).

Some of them have decades-old equipment, and keeping everything operating will eventually preclude building anything new. So, NSF has been trying to offload some older observatories to universities, or consortia of universities - Arecibo is one such.

For instance, some older solar observatories were taken offline to build DKIST ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_K._Inouye_Solar_Telesco...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_K._Inouye_Solar_Telescope)), which is an amazing instrument, just now coming online.

Of course, there is a lot of strife and anger caused by reallocation of resources like this.

<comment><USER6> I'm on my way to look up DKIST, but after SOHO, it's hard to imagine needing ground based solar observatories. Of course, SOHO will eventually come to end of mission, so we definitely need other observatories. It's just the SOHO imagery is stellar.

<comment><USER5> You're a little out of date! SoHO is largely shut down, has been for a decade now. Its tent pole instruments were replaced by SDO in 2010. ([https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/mission/](https://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/mission/))

Both of these are NASA, not NSF, observatories. They were (SoHO) and are (SDO) amazing resources that have advanced the whole area of heliophysics.

DKIST (NSF) has a 4m aperture. Unbelievable for a solar telescope, and of course, impossible to fly under reasonable NASA heliophysics budgets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Story has been posted already 2 other times in the last 2 days?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24129199](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24129199) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24128877](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24128877)

<comment><USER8> I didn't see it the first two times, so I'm happy it was posted again.

<comment><USER9> ditto

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> According to this paper [1] each of those panels is ~3x6 feet (presumably 1x2m) and RMS surface error across the primary surface of the antenna is ~5mm

[http://gancell.com/papers/CMSC%202001_Final.pdf](http://gancell.com/papers/CMSC%202001_Final.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER11> > some steering is possible by moving the receivers, or antennas, around a > platform suspended by cables high above the dish. The cable that broke this > week was not one of the main support cables but one of several auxiliary > ones added in the 1990s to stabilize the platform when a large new antenna, > known as the Gregorian dome, was added.

If anyone is curious, in this article there is a picture where you can see the suspended platform with the "Gregorian dome":

[https://www.npr.org/2020/08/12/901920638/puerto-ricos- arecib...](https://www.npr.org/2020/08/12/901920638/puerto-ricos-arecibo- radio-telescope-damaged-by-falling-cable)

</comment><comment><USER12> The thing that's crazy about Arecibo is that it's not just a telescope — it's also a very high power transmitter, so they're doing astronomy with RADAR. I didn't know such a thing was even possible until this week.

<comment><USER13> Cool, so what do they target? It must be something reasonably close. Though I realize even light year reflections are possible!

<comment><USER14> > so what do they target?

Traditionally, Moon, Venus, asteroids.

Also:

[https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Radiation_astronomy/Radars#A...](https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Radiation_astronomy/Radars#Arecibo_Observatory)

"the round trip light time to objects beyond Saturn is longer than the time the telescope can track it, preventing radar observations of more distant objects."

Also:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message)

"The Arecibo message is a 1974 interstellar radio message carrying basic information about humanity and Earth sent to globular star cluster M13. It was meant as a demonstration of human technological achievement, rather than a real attempt to enter into a conversation with extraterrestrials."

"The message consisted of 1,679 binary digits, approximately 210 bytes, transmitted at a frequency of 2,380 MHz and modulated by shifting the frequency by 10 Hz, with a power of 450 kW. The "ones" and "zeros" were transmitted by frequency shifting at the rate of 10 bits per second. The total broadcast was less than three minutes."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This dish was in the movie Goldeneye and apparently a lot of other films as well. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory)

<comment><USER16> This dish is also the final level of the Nintendo 64 "Goldeneye" game - "Cradle"

<comment><USER17> It was also in Battlefield 4 ("Rogue Transmission")

<comment><USER18> No it isn't. The BF4 campaign takes place in China. The map for Rogue Transmission is a fictional location in Guizhou Province in southwest China.

<comment><USER19> Is it fictional or based on the larger, similar looking Five-hundred meter Aperture Spherical Telescope located in Guizhou? See: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred- meter_Aperture_...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-hundred- meter_Aperture_Spherical_Telescope)

<comment><USER18> It's fictional, the overall design of the cable towers is taken from Arecibo's, FAST's towers are distinctly different. It's clearly neither though as the surrounding topology is flat and mostly devoid of trees, both FAST and Arecibo are nestled in valleys dense in foliage. That sort of layout doesn't play well in video games.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> For the benefit of other engineers who have not read the article:

The damage was done by a wire rope, not an electrical cable.

<comment><USER21> Glad I'm not the only one who initially read "cable" as more likely to be electrical than structural.

</comment></comment><comment> liv-io Arecibo? Makes me want to listen to Carbon Based Lifeforms: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifiICunJ- ZA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifiICunJ-ZA)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've always been fascinated by the Arecibo Observatory. There was a ham radio operator who was an early employee there. I met him at the Dayton Ham convention in the early seventies.

I planned a trip to Puerto Rico around ten years later. Unfortunately I suffered bad food poisoning on Guadeloupe and by the time I got to San Juan I was so ill that I had to cut out the trip to Arecibo. Still want to see it someday.

</comment><comment><USER22> What a shame, especially that the dome reflector was damaged too. I remember visiting in person and being awestruck by the sheer size and engineering skill needed to make this. Plus it provides needed tourism revenue for PR; I hope it's not abandoned.

</comment><comment><USER23> Pretty sad that this happened. It is rather iconic.

Interesting, though, I did not realize my Alma Mater took over management of it.

</comment><comment><USER24> These are the first pics of the underside I've ever seen. I'd like to see more of the infrastructure.

<comment><USER6> Watch the movie Contact. There's an entire scene underneath the dome.

also: [http://www.mreclipse.com/Observatory/Arecibo/full/Arecibo03-...](http://www.mreclipse.com/Observatory/Arecibo/full/Arecibo03-118w.JPG)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> > Typically, such cables don't fail in that way, which is "concerning," he > says.

Definitely aliens covering their tracks.

</comment><comment><USER26> Is it the same one in x files e2m1? Sorry I meant s2e1 ahem

<comment><USER27> Yes. Arecibo is mentioned in the episode description, and the x-files episode is mention on the Arecibo wiki page.

[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751154/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751154/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_Observatory)

<comment><USER26> Thanks! Good memory here...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Is it over for Arecibo then?

</comment><comment><USER29> Just in time for the thing for which Oumuamua was a spent deceleration stage... :)

<comment><USER30> Came here to make alien attack joke.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Wow the extent of the damage is surprising. Seems like a pretty big design oversight. If one broken cable can cause such damage, there should be redundancy built in. One extra cable. "One is none, two is one". From the luxury of my hindsight chair.

<comment><USER6> A 3" cable of this type is not an insignificant thing. Have you ever seen the cables used to support telephone poles? Those are maybe 3/8" (working from memory). If you are a teenager running in the dark at full speed at night while attempting to evade being caught papering a friends house and catch one of these cables across your neck, you're going to have a very bad night. I've seen the results.

The damage isn't from something failing because there was no other support after this cable failed. It was this failing cable falling back to the ground that did the damage. If it were an object like a rock, it would just drop straight-ish down to make a hole where it impacts. This is a cable that would make that initial impact hole, but would continue to do damage as it was pulled into its final resting spot.

<comment><USER32> Oof... I caught one of those phone pole cables on the forehead running in the dark one night, and I caught the guy wire of a soccer net/goal under the chin one day during practice. Both very unpleasant experiences</comment></comment></comment>


Engineering Windows 7: A view from the bottom - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/10/15/engineering-7-a-view-from-the-bottom.aspx <comment><USER2> The author, Larry Osterman, has his own blog that covers lots of super-nerdy Win32 programming topics: <http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/>

My favorite Windows programmer blog is still Raymond Chen though... good mix of Windows history and programming topics: <http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/></comment>


Ask HN: Experienced comparisons of SF Bay Area to other tech hubs? - <AUTHOR>

Hello HN!
I moved to the SF Bay Area about two years ago.
The tech scene is, of course, phenomenal: jobs, world-changing companies, startups, meetups, venture capital, etc.
The social situation, however, just doesn't jive with me, unfortunately, and I want to try a different setting.
As such, I'm considering a move to a different tech hub, but I don't know what destinations I should consider.
Does anyone have any first-hand, extended (>=2 year) experience in the SF Bay Area and another tech hub(s) they could share with me and the community?
If you could, comparisons of these factors are especially appreciated:
-Meetups/interpersonal professional development opportunities
-Salaried/freelance job availability
-General desirability (culture, weather, activities, etc)
I'm finding it incredibly hard to this information among my current network so I greatly appreciate any helpful replies, in advanced.
EDIT: Bonus points for any information on tech hubs in the Southeast US (bar Florida). That's my ideal social scene, despite how uninspiring the tech scene generally seems to be in this region. <comment><USER2> my "credentials" SF 14 years, Seattle 3, Austin 5

Austin, TX: really great (and surprisingly large/active for size of city) tech/meetup/UG scene. Very low unemployment, did not get devastated by housing bubble. Don't let "Texas" scare you off. Austin is a diverse, liberal, urban center. Texas charm without stereo-typed bigoted redneckness. No snow. Live music capital of world. It is a small city (which may be good or bad depending on POV)

Seattle, WA: probably the 2nd largest tech hub. But, I really didn't like it. Too expensive, too Microsoft, horrible climate (depressive short winter days).</comment>


22 Online Shops for Stationary Addicts - <AUTHOR> https://www.toolstoliveby.com.tw/en/blog/post/22-awesome-online-shops-for-stationery-addicts/ <comment><USER2> Nit: s/stationary/stationery/

</comment><comment><USER3> Why would the addicts be immobilized?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> descriptions: [https://www.creativeboom.com/features/22-awesome-online- shop...](https://www.creativeboom.com/features/22-awesome-online-shops-for- stationery-addicts/)</comment>


Bill Gates' Summer Reading List - <AUTHOR> https://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill-Gates/Summer-Books-2019 <comment><USER2> I guess gates is in the pro guns germs steel camp, nice to know Haha. Jared diamond's books are always interesting.

</comment><comment><USER3> It is always interesting to see Gates reading list. Most books on the current list is about upheavals and issues in society.

Paul Collier's Book, The Future of Capitalism is on the list.</comment>


Ghosts of White People Past: Witnessing White Flight from an Asian Ethnoburb - <AUTHOR> https://psmag.com/ghosts-of-white-people-past-witnessing-white-flight-from-an-asian-ethnoburb-b550ba986cdb <comment><USER2> Freedom is wonderful provided, according to this writer, it's not freedom to live whereever and with whom you want to live in your local environment. If your kids are outsmarted and outperformed by highly competitive incomers, a decision to move somewhere else is 'racist'.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's almost as if "diversity" doesn't make anyone happy... How totally not surprising</comment>


MongoDB Acquires Realm - <AUTHOR> https://www.mongodb.com/press/mongodb-strengthens-mobile-offerings-with-acquisition-of-realm <comment><USER2> Isn't this kinda low? According to crunchbase Realm raised $40M</comment>


Ask HN: Are all recruiter calls this bad? - <AUTHOR> I don't have too much experience in dealing with internal recruiters, but I decided to give one a call after they reached out to me multiple times.  My experience was fairly unpleasant and I'm wondering how it compares to what you've encountered.
I'll cover the basics just to add a bit of context.  They're an online retailer of women's products, and the project involves an application for facilitating support calls from their customers.  The outreach email mentioned that the VP of Engineering was interested in my skill set given that I've been a Lead Engineer at a couple of startups.  On my end, I've been doing contract work for over a year now, and figured that I should be open to new opportunities.   So we set up a call, and it's all downhill from here.
The recruiter started off by downgrading the position from a Lead Engineer to a Senior Engineer. This is after telling me that they reached out to me because of my experience as a lead, and after informing me that I would still be leading a team, and that I would be responsible for the architecture of the project.  I would have pretty much all of the responsibilities of a Lead Engineer, just not the title (aka the pay).
The recruiter then spent 15 minutes negging my experience, telling me how much smarter their employees are than I am, and informing me that the biggest perk to working there is the fact that I would have the opportunity to be surrounded by their brilliance.  The conversation finally ended when I asked for salary ranges for this position and he refused to provide them.
In retrospect, it seems like this recruiter is out there just looking for someone to screw over.  So, are recruiter calls typically this bad?  Do recruiters always balk at providing numbers?  Am I taking crazy pills to think that this behavior was out of line?  What has your experience been like? <comment><USER2> It depends on the type of company you're talking with. In my experience the recruiters at large, established companies will be very professional and positive - they're looking to make the company attractive to you as much as you want to seem attractive to them. On the other hand my experience with smaller, less-well known, companies (including many startups) is _very_ variable. The recruiters there have significantly less training (if any) and aren't given clear requirements from management on what candidates to look for. More specific to your questions, it's not uncommon for this type of recruiter to pull a bait-and-switch on things like salary, title, etc. To me that's a warning signal that they're trying to get you to commit and then pull a fast one. By the time you get hired you'll be demoted to junior engineer with low salary, given that the recruiter was talking about their team so highly and will say that you're less experienced in comparison. It's happened to me several times, but that doesn't make it right. You're absolutely right in thinking it was crazy and out of line. My personal advice to you would be to walk away, their behavior is not a good sign of things to come.

</comment><comment><USER3> Move on. Their loss. Don't think too hard about one person's behaviour.

</comment><comment><USER4> I'd say most, but not all.</comment>


Show HN: Nekøyume – Blockchain-based Role-Playing Game - <AUTHOR> https://preview.nekoyu.me <comment><USER2> > Private key is a password that identify you. Please make this unique.

how am i supposed to know if its unique and i haven't accidentally identified myself as someone else? Yes can make a very random and very long key, but that doesn't mean it's unique.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's an interesting solution to server shutdowns. On the other hand there is not a lot of complexity to this game. You just fight, sleep, craft items (for gold) by pressing a single button. Especially the latter feels like pay to win to me.

</comment><comment><USER4> Seriously, why does it ask for my private key when I access the page from mobile? I instantly closed the page.

<comment><AUTHOR> You can make some random private key just for this game preview. I don't recommend to use a serious key for this web-based preview.

I'll provide source code and client application. At that time, you can use your favorite private key to play the game.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Seems to suffer from same throughput problems as Bitcoin.

Very slow action.

Otherwise pretty cool idea!</comment>


MIT team reverses a liver disorder in mice by correcting a mutated gene - <AUTHOR> http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/erasing-genetic-mutation

<comment><AUTHOR> > The findings, described in the March 30 issue of Nature Biotechnology, offer > the first evidence that this gene-editing technique, known as CRISPR, can > reverse disease symptoms in living animals. CRISPR, which offers an easy way > to snip out mutated DNA and replace it with the correct sequence, holds > potential for treating many genetic disorders, according to the research > team.

This gives me the good kind of chills. I've been following CRISPR research for a few months by now as apparently it's a highly promising way of surgical DNA editing.

(I'm not a scientist, just a very interested hobbyist.)</comment>


Richard Feynman's Modest Science (and fake teaching) - <AUTHOR> http://duartes.org/gustavo/blog/post/richard-feynmans-modest-science

<comment><USER2> Feynman was a fascinating character. Anyone interested in learning more about him should pick up _Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!_

</comment><comment><USER3> _It was so humble and visceral and honest._

 _here was a Nobel laureate telling me that_ he didn't really understand it either

 _Analogies that were meant to "help understand" reality had in fact supplanted it ... ts entire aim was to pretend that science is not mysterious._

I've noticed that people at the top of their field in computing tend to have that humility, too. It's a contrast to those who insist that their way is the only way, that what they see is all there is to see. Computing is also mysterious.

</comment><comment><USER4> Just curious, has anyone here ever read all 3 volumes of Feynman's Lectures on Physics?

<comment><USER5> I read most of them; I skipped a few chapters, which I can't now remember.

It helped once I saw a video of him lecturing: it made such a strong impression that I can hear him as I'm reading. He was quite the showman.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm not a scientist and I don't play one on TV, but I've read Feynman's two auto-biographical books, "Surely You're Joking Mr.Feynman" and "What do you care what other people think - further adventures of a curious character" and they are both very well worth reading. What I didn't know until now was the sheer volume of writing he did in his lifetime. A search on bookfinder.com comes up with literally dozens of books.

</comment><comment><USER7> _"Professor, please give me an approximate description of the electromagnetic waves, even though it may be slightly innacurate, so that I too can see them as well as I can see almost-invisible angels. Then I will modify the picture to the necessary abstraction."_

 _"I'm sorry I can't do that for you. I don't know how. I have no picture of this electromagnetic field that is in any sense accurate. (…) So if you have some difficulty in making such a picture, you should not be worried that your difficulty is unusual."_

Honesty.

<comment><USER8> Yeah honest, and he could also be wrong. What's wrong with a wave picture like disturbances in the air or water? It's not perfect, not by a long shot, but all you need is something useful.

To an extent I agree with the blog author when he says these analogies tend to 'supplant reality.' Of course their entire aim is "to pretend that science is not mysterious". Math is the only language for understanding these concepts but relating them to the human experience helps (many people, probably most) in understanding. It's not our fault that he's never studied physics & prefers to read the cliffsnotes versions.

<comment><USER9> In the book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman," he talks about needing a concrete example of any abstract system he was taking a new look at; this would help him intuit problems or inconsistencies faster than he could work them out precisely on paper.

I think this kind of concrete example is qualitatively different from an analogy or other way of visualizing the full system. The former helps more in specific circumstances, while the latter gives a warm, happy, and likely incorrect feeling of understanding.</comment></comment></comment>


Revisiting Android - <AUTHOR> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/192935/Revisiting_Android.php

<comment><USER2> tl;dr: Gamasutra interviewed several game developers. They say Android is very profitable, and fragmentation is exaggerated by the press and not a big deal.</comment>


BBC Two's disastrous launch remembered (2014) - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-27033129 <comment><USER5> A delightful presentation style, even in the case of some problems. Calm and yet friendly.

At some point TV presented people as someone to look up to, at least a bit. You can still see it in the archives from eighties television over here. Maybe the barrier for entry was so high, so by the time you got there, you had the "father/mother figure" style down. Nowadays it's all the opposite.

I've been at home in flu for a couple of days, can anyone recommend any good youtube channels? Even BBC Earth looks to be a breathless barrage of words to "make you excited".

<comment><USER6> Here's a list of the YouTube channels I'm subscribed to. It spans a broad range of interests; hopefully you'll find at least some of them interesting.

* Julian Illet - Low-voltage electronics

* Big Clive - High-voltage electronics (plus completely random stuff)

* Cody's Lab - Science of various sorts

* Nile Red - Home chemistry

* Periodic Videos - Professional chemistry

* Tom Scott - Things You Might Not Know

* Objectivity - Brief looks into the archives of the Royal Society

* Numberphile - <USER4>

* Matthias Wandel - <USER3>

* Matt Parker / StandupMaths - <USER4>

* Every Frame a Painting

* James May the Reassembler - BBC show (not a channel, but people have posted episodes) where James May reassembles things that have been disassembled.

<comment><USER7> These are great, thanks for that - I've subscribed to a few of them.

It does bring up a sore point that, these days its not so much about the content being available, but rather how to find the content in the first place. I find myself really wishing there were some curatorship organization, like the BBS is/was, for all the overwhelming amount of content out there...

<comment><USER8> This old tony - Well edited and often very funny metalworking William Osman - actually made me laugh so much 'biohacking' his dog that I nearly choked to death

and to suggest a different vein to the other guy,

shut up and sit down - great board game reviews

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> bbc2 commissioned this to mark their 50th anniversary. Very funny.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOlSHw_y0Lw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOlSHw_y0Lw)

<comment><USER10> And it's blocked in the UK on copyright grounds... :(

<comment><USER11> [http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wqlvw_harry-and-paul-s- st...](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1wqlvw_harry-and-paul-s-story-of-the- twos-couchtripper_fun)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Disastrous" seems to be a bit of an understatement:

> "Producers cursed, public relations men wept, Fleet Street cheered and > jeered and the kangaroo - stuck in a lift - went berserk."</comment>


Minimal design for encrypted file sharing app - <AUTHOR> https://www.relaysecret.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hopefully this is useful for someone. I needed an encrypted filesharing, similar to firefox send (which is unfortunately taken down due to abuse) but when i looked into deploying it myself, it seems like a fair bit of work to get it up and running so i decided to build something with minimal backend code (1 python lamda + 1 api gateway + 1 s3 bucket), no random 3rd party JS library.. Some cool things i learnt from building this project is the fact that you can acquire a POST signed policy to directly send file to S3, you can also add tag for your s3 objects and using bucket lifecycle rule base on object prefix, i can automatically expire objects and reduce backend code for that.</comment>


Atanta Startup Gauntlet - Toastmasters for Entrepreneurs - <AUTHOR> http://www.startupgauntlet.com/ <comment><USER2> Don't call it toastmasters. Toastmasters is about helpful evaluation in a supportive environment. Startup Gauntlet is about tearing presenters apart.</comment>


Google Removes XMPP Support From Android - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunchit.com/2008/07/18/google-remove-xmpp-support-in-android/

<comment><USER2> _This means that all real-time communication on Android not using SMS or HTTP must pass through the Gtalk servers._

Well, it's an open platform, right? So just install your own XMPP library and use that.

Edit: in fact, Google has said that they encourage this:

[http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2008-February/018...](http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2008-February/018027.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> google is over playing there hand here, this is becoming a very closed system, i bet near the end it will be locked like the iphone only with t mobile instead of att</comment>


We're in an economic war with China. It's futile to compromise - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/steve-bannon-were-in-an-economic-war-with-china-its-futile-to-compromise/2019/05/06/0055af36-7014-11e9-9eb4-0828f5389013_story.html <comment><USER2> So Bannon is often full of BS. But he makes a few points that are good and others that are ridiculous or just embarrassing. Much of what he wrote is reasonable, one thing was clearly wrong (point three, western companies would just crush Chinese companies except for forced IP migration). Some rust belt voters liked Trump's racist complaints about Mexican Immigrants but not all voters were going on that - many rust belters were also looking for someone to provide them some hope about their towns where the factories closed and there was little opportunity. Sadly HRC did a poor job of addressing this.

Forced transfer and govt. propping up some companies are obviously bad for other countries.

But on point three he is laughable far off the mark. There was a time when China wouldn't have been able to compete with the us is many markets with significant IP but those days are gone for most products imho. Chinese internet based companies are world beaters or at the least many of them make great products, and about the only way companies like Huawei will be stopped will be if we don't let them enter our markets as a whole. In field after field the Chinese 996 work life is giving them tremendous progress in design and implementation of electronics, software, and the technology to build things. The us is arguable way way behind them in manufacturing, we've lost our infrastructure, factories and expertise in many cases. We are in a battle with them for world supremacy, it's been clear for a long time. But he is wrong that the west will just win if we and they open their markets. We'd be in serious jeopardy if we competed with them on an even playing field. My experience with Chinese engineers who have come to work in the us is that they are excellent. Yes, there are companies that are stealing ideas, but more and more of them are really succeeding.</comment>


Chrome for Android update - <AUTHOR> http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2013/02/chrome-for-android-update.html

<comment><USER2> Looking forward to trying this. Chrome on Android so far has been blazingly fast (naturally) but also surprisingly buggy.</comment>


Passport Index – How much power does your passport have? - <AUTHOR> http://www.passportindex.org/ <comment><USER3> The number of countries that you can enter without a visa might not be the best metric.

For example, if you have a US or Signapore passport, you might be able to enter a lot of countries without a visa, but Brazil is not one of them. Brazil is obviously a hugely important country, so that seems like a notable disadvantage. EU citizens can enter Brazil without a visa.

Additionally, there are several countries that have special (higher) visa fees for processing US passports.

Having a Schengen passport is also pretty sweet if you want to _move_ to a different Schengen country.

Finally, if you get kidnapped for a random, you don't want to have to rely on a US passport! (Then again, if you get kidnapped by North Korea, Bill Clinton might personally fly over to negotiate your release.)

<comment><USER4> China, Russia, India, Indonesia (With VOA) also require visas for Americans, often with retaliatory fees for the visa (they charge us what we charge them). I was surprised that I need a visa to go to austrailia, out of all places, though at least we can do it online...

<comment><USER5> In case you were unaware, nobody (other than US citizens and Canadians) can get into the United States without a 'visa' of some kind. Even if you're from the United Kingdom for example, you still need an ESTA, which although it isn't called a 'visa', is required prior to travel like a visa and costs a fee like a visa.

<comment><USER6> Esta is only for flying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There are some important considerations here that haven't been taken into account. For example, the United States is the only major country in the world that taxes non-resident citizens on their worldwide income, which makes it one of the most inconvenient passports to hold. Additionally, holding an EU passport allows one to work, study, etc. in any EU country, rather than simply visit it.

<comment><USER8> Once you factor in the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and Foreign Tax Credit, it is the filing requirement that is onerous, not the taxation.

The first $100,000 of income can be excluded. On income above that, the US demands the difference if the taxes in the foreign country are less than US taxes. I think you acknowledge all this quite well when you call it inconvenient, but I think people don't need to be horribly outraged about it (I think the policy likely does close a path of tax avoidance that would be well used, but I'm pretty ambivalent about whether it is reasonable).

<comment><USER9> The Earned Income Exclusion, as its name applies, only applies to "earned" income. It doesn't apply to capital gains or dividends. Having reviewed the form in detail, I also believe that self-employed US citizens working abroad with US-sourced self-employment income (i.e., digital nomads) also need to play the ~15% self-employment tax, even if you're able to get out of the "normal" income tax with the Foreign Income Exclusion.

<comment><USER8> I think it is much more likely that digital nomads are operating unlicensed businesses in foreign countries than it is that they are earning "US sourced self-employment income".

It could well be easy to import the earnings into some country while characterizing it as US sourced self employment income. That doesn't mean it is actually compliant with the regulations of that country.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I prefer this web site: [http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/](http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/)

It also gives you information about which passports a country allows:

Where can a US passport take you: [http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/passport/United%20States](http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/passport/United%20States)

Citizens of which countries are allowed to enter the US without a visa: [http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/border/United%20States](http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/border/United%20States)

It's also fascinating to see the cultural divides like 'Western world', 'Muslim world', etc based on the passport and border information.

Another interesting thing is where the Israeli passport can take you: [http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/passport/israel](http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/passport/israel)

The border of India is surprisingly restricted: [http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/border/india](http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/border/india) looks like only citizens of Nepal and Bhutan are allowed without a visa.

<comment><USER11> At least some of the info there is stale or incorrect (just judging by metrics for only one country I'm familiar with).

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Is there a way to get any information beyond the magic numbers on that site? e.g. a US passport allows entry to 147 countries, but can I list which ones? Or which ones it doesn't allow access to? Or what the difference is between two passports?

Another possible index would be a reverse lookup per-country, showing how many other countries can visit it without a visa. Something like a 'country freedom index' or somesuch.

<comment><USER13> As an Irish citizen I was wondering which countries our British counterparts could get to that we couldn't :)

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Visa_req...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Visa_requirements_for_Irish_citizens.png)

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Visa_req...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens.png)

        compare -metric AE -fuzz 5% Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens.png Visa_requirements_for_Irish_citizens.png comparison.png

[http://i.imgur.com/QdCdb8r.png](http://i.imgur.com/QdCdb8r.png)

<comment> k-mcgrady Thanks for doing that comparison. It's particularly interesting for those of us up north who can carry both and Irish and British passport.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Doesn't look like the information on that site is correct. Or at least, it disagrees with [https://www.henleyglobal.com/international-visa- restrictions...](https://www.henleyglobal.com/international-visa- restrictions/) The differences are quite striking, the US isn't even in the top 10.

<comment><USER8> I just downloaded the pdf (yay mailinator).

It lists the US as a number 1 country there (with 174 visa free countries), I guess they omit it on the free list to gather email addresses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This seems to only consider the number of countries one can travel to without a visa as a tourist. So it doesn't consider the ability to move to or work/study at another country.

<comment><USER16> It's really an exception if you can work/study at another country without a visa/residence permit. A more relevant question is whether you can make a business trip, or act as a journalist, without a visa. For instance, ESTA for a tourist in the USA is an easy thing, but if the same person wants to come for a few weeks and work as a journalist, e.g. make interviews, then the visa process is very very different. The USA does not offer that much freedom for foreign press, really.

A zone of visa-free exceptions has been created in the Schengen area, but even there you'll need to apply for a work permit for longer stints (and the host country is obliged to give it to citizens of other Schengen countries, with some exceptions).

<comment><USER15> While the whole Schengen area may not allow you to work everywhere, the core EU area pretty much does[1]. Of course you may have to do some paper work, but, generally, if you have a job offer from another EU country, you will be able to take it without having to worry about getting a visa.

Nordic countries also have their own passport union, so a Finnish passport, for example, will let you go and work in Iceland or Norway pretty freely.

I would imagine there are be some other regions that have similiar agreements. I think that the Commonwealth at least used to have some benefits for its citizens, but I'm not sure how much of those remain.

[1] [http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_a...](http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/working_abroad/working_in_the_eu.html)

<comment><USER16> Yes, the work permit is practically automatic within Schengen, and not even needed between Nordic countries, but it is not an absolute right: persons from another Schengen country may legally be barred from entering (typically, this is outcome of repeated/aggravated criminal convictions).

This is possible even between Nordic countries (consider Juha Valjakkala / Nikita Fouganthine who we get to keep in Finland as Sweden understandably does not wish him to enter).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> These numbers seem to be incorrect, comparing to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_(document)#Visa_Restrictio...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_\(document\)#Visa_Restrictions_Index)

</comment><comment><USER18> What I'd be interested in is a table of countries that I cannot/(can) enter with the country's passport. I couldn't find such a table.

<comment><USER19> Which country are you from? For me( a Zimbabwean) i rely on these:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Zimbabwean_citizens
      http://www.doyouneedvisa.com/passport/Zimbabwe

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> More interesting would be to rank citizenship by price. For example, you can directly get Maltese citizenship for $150k. Indirectly you can get a green card for $500k. Maybe someone could sort through all these direct and indirect rules to classify citizenships by value.

</comment><comment><USER21> Unsurprisingly, the Swiss passport is the one with the most interesting and visually pleasing design.

<comment><USER22> I thought the same thing, didn't even have to click on it to know that was swiss. The Vatican passport is pretty nice too, with only the gold emblem on black.

<comment><USER12> I like the Vatican passport design too. I wonder if the inside is written in Latin?

<comment><USER16> No, it seems to be Italian (with French and English to support).

[http://www.quora.com/What-does-the-inside-of-todays- Vatican-...](http://www.quora.com/What-does-the-inside-of-todays-Vatican- passport-look-like)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> What if you have two passports, what's your cumulative passport power? Or a passport from one country and lassiez passer from another?

<comment><USER24> Additionally, it would be helpful if you could select your passports, and then it would suggest on a per-country which passport to use for entry, based on visa restrictions, costs, etc. There are a number of websites that offer the information listed in the post, but nothing that provides the details I just described.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> does it take it into consideration that the US and Israeli passport make you active targets in certain parts of the world?

<comment><USER12> No. But thanks for asking, always happy to help!

Other things not taken into account:

* Passport weight index (how hefty is your passport? is it any good as a baton? Page count and binding are important here)

* Passport prettiness index (how dull or interesting are the blank pages in your passport)?

* Passport value index (what's the black market price for each country's passport?)

* etc etc

1/10 site woefully incomplete.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Can we get the data behind this?

I need to start investigating the entrance requirements for myself into pretty much every country in Africa, and I have not found a convenient way to do so yet.

I have two passports, so I need to figure out which one is best in each country.

<comment><USER8> They are pulling data from IATA, which offers an information site:

[http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/](http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/)

It isn't really very convenient for the use you propose (it returns info based on one passport-destination pair at a time).

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Compare that to this table:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_%28document%29#Visa_polici...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_%28document%29#Visa_policies)

States that get the most give the least.

</comment><comment><USER28> The information onthat site seems wrong. Austria's passport has visa free access to more than 170 countries and there are passports that have more than that. Yet it shows the UK with less than 150.

<comment><USER8> Something is wrong with the site. I'm fairly certain that when I first viewed the US and UK it said 174 (only fairly certain because I am prone to flipping digits and the second time it said 147). Now it doesn't show any number for the US.

Edit: and now it does show 147 again. If I remember correctly, other entries also lost ~30 from their totals.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Would be nice if it also listed the countries that you could travel to.

<comment><USER30> there's always wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Visa_requirements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Visa_requirements)

<comment><USER29> yes of course :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I've always thought this kind of comparison wasn't as meaningful as "how many square km of the planet does your passport grant you access to? Countries vary in size too much.

<comment><USER12> How is that more meaningful, unless you value every square kilometer of Siberia, for instance?

Or you could argue that having access to all of the seas without a passport means that the per-km2 value of a passport is actually relatively small? :)

<comment><USER31> Suppose your passport only granted you access to 4 countries.

Mine gets me to Russia, Canada, the U.S. and China.

Yours gets you to Grenada, Malta, Maldives and Saint Kitts and Nevis (ignoring the EU for a moment).

Which one is "more powerful"? Obviously mine is since I get to enjoy most of the landmass of the Northern Hemisphere while yours gets you access to a handful of minor island nations.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Not particularly interesting, but now I'm curious what one country makes the difference between South Korea, Germany and France, at 145, and Italy and Sweden at 144.

<comment><USER33> It's not one country. Differences between France and South Korea include - <USER2> exclusively - Russia, Mongolia, and Namibia.[0][1]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_French_c...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_French_citizens#Visa_requirements_map) [1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_South_Ko...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_South_Korean_citizens#Visa_requirements_map)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I'm interested in doing some graph analytics for each country's VISA policy. Where can I find the full list of each country's visa free countries list?

</comment><comment><USER35> Oman. Not to great, but not too bad either. On the plus side I always joke that we're the friendly Arabs because no one has ever heard of us.

<comment><USER36> As someone who meanders around the Gulf, I think you are expensive for tourists and you are just trying to reel us in.

<comment><USER36> I see I got downvoted. I just wanted to clarify that was a joke.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> bjelkeman-again I think it is interesting that this is essentially an somewhat subtle ad for investment banking for high net worth individuals.

</comment><comment><USER37> Wow North Korea has more rank than a good 15/20 countries!

</comment><comment><USER38> Swiss passport cover is lovely. Looks like a medical card.

</comment><comment><USER39> wasn't this on front of HN like just a week ago?

</comment><comment><USER40> It is an absolute disgrace that people are limited in their ability to travel where they want to simply because they happened to be born in a certain place. If you look at that and don't see how this is basically a prison system, you are just endlessly ignorant.

<comment><USER25> visa restrictions into the US and EU exist to protect their own population, as voted and decided upon by their democratic systems.

the world is a bit more complicated than your comment implies.

<comment><USER40> Yes. Many things in the world exist because the majority thinks it's a good idea. Doesn't mean it is. 200 years ago the majority thought slavery was ok. I'm still yet to see anyone who'd convince me why is it that I need to get a permission from a bureaucrat just to see my friend, when my friend doesn't approve of that policy and never voted for anything like that to be instituted.

Me not visiting my friend more often doesn't protect a single soul. All the while, criminals with legalized money buy residencies and citizenship left and right. Tell me more about how that protects anyone even remotely.

<comment><USER25> laws exist to cover for the majority of use cases, not individual, well reasoned exceptions. start with hammurabi and read on, the worl of bureaucracy has a lot more background and sense than you imagine.

<comment><USER40> I do not approve of collectivism, not even in law and order. When you say "laws exist" who are you to decide why they exist? I for one think they exist (in the current, monopolized form) to control the general population while elites are practically exempt. Prove me wrong and please use logic and evidence, not some theory that justifies bureaucracy.

<comment><USER16> Who are we, as voters in democratic countries, to decide why they exist? We are to decide, by the very definition of democracy.

The visa requirements are not so much for the elites in rich countries; it's more for the general population - particularly in welfare states, the situation is that you can have open borders, or you can have universal welfare benefits for population, but you cannot have both.

Often it seems that it is actually the political and economical elite that wants to do away with immigration controls (to get cheap labor, for instance).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Doesn't take much into consideration. E.G, look at where the UAE passport is ranked. A _fresh_ graduate working in Abu Dhabi earns 60k+ a year, gets a free piece of land and a $400,000 loan interest free to build a house on that piece of land.

<comment><USER42> That has nothing to do with having a passport.</comment></comment>