Japan Is Giving Away 8M Abandoned Houses - <AUTHOR> https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/japan-free-abandoned-house <comment><USER2> The more interesting thing about this is that it is part of a new type of economics, _contraction economics._ The global trend toward birth rates below replenishment means that first-world countries are maintaining their population growth through immigration. As some countries embrace restrictions on immigration, and ultimately all countries plateau in their population growth (projected to be around 2100) it means that the driving force behind increases in property value (population increases) will be curtailed.*

As we saw in 2008 curtailing or reversing growth in real-estate can have major impacts on society, but in the future this won't be just a correction it will be a new phase of global economics. There will be _fewer humans each year_ making the total pressure on land values negative. Even before that an aging workforce will cause the total working population to contract (as it already has in Japan). Everything the Japanese do with more land and fewer workers is a canary in the coal mine for the global economy.

One of the great predicates of modern economics (perpetual expansion) will need to be re-thought. In some ways it's great news (more space for everyone after the great pinch of the 21st century) but in others it will necessarily wipe out the speculative aspect of many current growth markets. Contraction economics means deflation becomes a norm not an exception.

* Urbanization means cities will lag behind this reversal.

<comment><USER3> Japan is not a very good proxy due to their strict immigration policies and preference to be an "ethnically homogeneous nation." As you mentioned, other countries can just replenish their head count through relaxed immigration. I'd wager, for example, that the US will remain highly multicultural with looser immigration long term since it's baked into its identity[0], despite some recent policy changes.

0\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot)

<comment><USER4> "Japan has strict immigration policies" is often repeated, but I don't think this is tells the whole story. Some of the policies are very permissive:

* If you graduated university and have a 'skilled' job in Japan, you are likely to get a visa. There is no cap on the number of these. There is no language requirement.

* If you live in Japan for over 5 years continuously you can apply for citizenship, though you must renounce any other citizenships.

* If you live in Japan for over 10 years you are eligible for permanent residency.

* If you are married to a Japanese national you can do any kind of work and get permanent residency in 3 years.

* If you have enough points on the highly skilled professional visa you can get permanent residency in 1 year. This is retroactive as long as you lived in Japan during that time, you don't even need to have had the highly skilled professional visa.

So, is it really an issue of policy? I think the causes may lie elsewhere.

<comment><USER5> Based on my experience visiting Japan and talking to both expats and expat- friendly locals there, I think the issue is more cultural than political. If you live in Japan but don't look Japanese you never really feel welcomed as a Japanese.

Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate socially based on someone's looks or origins...

<comment><USER6> > Contrast that to countries like most of the West, where at least a solid > proportion of people consider it socially unacceptable to discriminate > socially based on someone's looks or origins..

Those things are also socially unacceptable in Japan. My experience is that the often discussed "micro-agressions" against foreigners happen about as often in Japan as they do in my own country (US, grew up in Texas).

Of course, the only complaints that foreigners in Japan can make is about trivia. The US is so fucked up that we cannot seem to stop shooting unarmed black men, we're separating mothers from babies, and as of last week now tear gassing families at the border. So not sure if you are American, but many of the foreigners in Japan that complain of discrimination are, and I just want to say that I think it takes a lot of balls for an American in Japan to be like "hey, you guys can do a lot better with the discrimination thing."

As horrifying as someone being impressed with your ability to use chopsticks is, it's not quite so horrifying as being literally shot for walking on the street.

Many people in the US freeze up if a black person so much as walks by them on the street. And on the other side of the pacific? Ask a random stranger for directions; 9 times out of 10 they will stop whatever they are doing and walk with you to wherever you are going.

<comment><USER7> >The US is so fucked up that we cannot seem to stop shooting unarmed black men

Twice as many white men are shot by police but I can't remember the last time I saw a national news story about one of them. Name one in recent years you heard covered in the national news. [0] I edited out "unarmed". That ratio slightly favors white males.

>we're separating mothers from babies, and as of last week now tear gassing families at the border.

Everyday, across this beautiful land, we seperate children from their parents for commiting crimes. We have a legal immigration system.

What does Japan do to people who enter illegally? How many refugees did they take in 2017? 20. Out of 20,000 applications. They could do a little more, right? [1]

[0][https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police- shootings-2018/?utm_term=.3508fbf32b99)

[1][https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan- asylum-a...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/japan-asylum- applications-2017-accepted-20)

<comment><USER8> > Twice as many unarmed white men are shot by police

I visited your link and could not see a matching statistic.

Filtering by "unarmed" and hovering over "Race" I got a count of 19 White, 15 Black, 4 Hispanic.

I then also had a quick look at the article for "Brett Luengo", [0] (White) which states i.e. "Luengo attacked a woman first..." etc. etc.; I mean it goes on for quite a while. So seems like there's a big variation in the definition of "unarmed man" shooting that doesn't preclude other kinds of violent or aggressive activity/indications.

Looks to me like the statistics are not really telling the whole story there so maybe that's why you don't hear them "covered in the national news".

[0] [https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland- met...](https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/deputy- involved-shooting-on-i-90-in-cuyahoga-couty)

<comment><USER7> > I visited your link and could not see a matching statistic.

I was wrong. Police kill twice as many whites but I shouldn't have included the unarmed qualifier.

> I then also had a quick look at the article for "Brett Luengo"

He did attack but I think it still qualifies. I personally didn't hear of this one but a google search shows it was covered, even if not very extensively. It was picked up on national news.

Even still, the comment that law enforcement is wholesale killing young unarmed black males is just false.

<comment><USER9> Given that there are 5 times as many white folks as black in the US, that stat isn't saying what you think it is.

Black people are still more likely to be shot than white people.

I don't think that anyone reasonable ever claimed that the police were 'wholesale killing young unarmed black males,' just that it happens too often.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The US saw similar efforts in Detroit and other Rust Belt cities. That mostly just resulted in asset flippers hoarding houses and letting them fall into further disrepair. I wonder what steps Japan is taking to mitigate that possibility.

<comment><USER11> Detroit: If you have a credit card and a want to own an apartment building, it is the place to be. Just needs some elbow grease. There _MUST BE_ opportunity at $5 USD per square foot -- but it is hard to visualize.

[https://www.point2homes.com/US/Multi-Family-For- Sale/MI/Detr...](https://www.point2homes.com/US/Multi-Family-For- Sale/MI/Detroit/Durfee/3707-WAGER-Street/51690101.html)

[I think you can talk this guy down to $10k].

<comment><USER12> If they'd throw in a working visa I'd be intrigued

<comment><USER13> If you could pull that off, sounds like an incredible program to me. I don't think anything could revitalize Detroit like large amounts of immigrants would.

<comment><USER14> And Detroit already has a large immigrant population, so it's not that much of a culture shock.

<comment><USER13> From Wikipedia looks like they are below the national average, but I'd posit that means the upside is that much larger.

My favorite example of this process is booming South Florida, where more than half of adults are foreign born. Houston is another great one, with 23% foreign born.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Metro_Detroit#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Metro_Detroit#Immigration_and_foreign- born_origins) > 5% of people within the city of Detroit are immigrants, making the percentage of immigrants in Detroit the lowest such percentage out of those of the 25 largest cities in the United States. The national average is about 13%

<comment><USER14> The city itself has a very low immigrant population, but as is listed in your source, surrounding suburbs have very large immigrant populations. For instance Hamtranck has 43% born out of the country.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> So wait, there are places where there are houses being given away (e.g. US, Japan and Italy as far as I know) and I'm a person that has the ability to work remotely.

Am I missing something? Is this my ticket to cheap housing and a more stress free life? At what point am I going to be scammed and/or disappointed?

<comment><USER16> Is it just me or is the prospect of working from home in the middle of nowhere terrifying?

When you work from home, you wanna leave home often, where do you go if you're in the middle of nowhere?

I work from home in the middle of a dense city, pay a premium for it! You leave home and there are about 100 places (cafes, theatres, museums, parks etc.) I can go to that are walking distance. Is that possible in say rural Michigan, where housing is apparently practically free?

<comment><USER17> I work remotely from "rural" Japan. I am surrounded by rice fields and mountains, but also only a 10 minute drive or 20 minute bike/bus ride to the city center where there is shopping and night life. From there it's a couple hours to Tokyo by bullet train, which I visit a handful of times a year.

There are old or abandoned houses nearby that can be had for very little money.

I love being in the mountains. I get outdoors for cycling, hiking, running, or skiing almost every day.

The language barrier is a bit scary, but fortunately I knew enough to get by on day-to-day tasks. Google translate is also a godsend.

<comment><USER18> Wait, you do this before getting an N3? How is that possible?

<comment><USER19> Not sure if this is what OP used, but the Google Translate app is nearing sci- fi levels of accuracy and speed. The conversation function is good enough that you can talk with someone while both using different languages and actually understand each other with minimal delay.

<comment><USER18> Yes but I was under the impression that Japanese long term work visa was only granted to those that had achieved N3 in Japanese language, seems I might be under a mistaken impression...

<comment><USER20> OP probably has N3.

I have no idea why anything other than N2 and N1 exist. N3 is basically useless, I got it in under 6 months of studying and I'm a slow learner (my Korean and Chinese peers were going for N2 at that time). I still couldn't function well with it. I was so disappointed by it I skipped 2 and went straight to N1.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This sounds great but you have to factor in that up to very recently, houses have been fairly poorly built in Japan as they prefer to demolish and build anew. Average lifespan of a house in Japan is 20-30 years. Which means that it doesn't always make sense to renovate these abandoned houses.

Some reading:

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan- reusabl...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable- housing-revolution)

[https://www.economist.com/finance-and- economics/2018/03/15/w...](https://www.economist.com/finance-and- economics/2018/03/15/why-japanese-houses-have-such-limited-lifespans)

[http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-japanese-homes- dispo...](http://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-japanese-homes-disposable-a- new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-3/)

[https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable- business/disposable-...](https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable- business/disposable-homes-japan-environment-lifespan-sustainability)

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/03/31/how- tos/ja...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/03/31/how- tos/japans-30-year-building-shelf-life-is-not-quite-true/)

<comment><USER22> > This sounds great but you have to factor in that up to very recently

Has that changed?

I assume you get the actual property, not just the house sitting on it. The land is what japan generally values.

<comment><USER23> Houses are depreciating assets. It's the land that has value most places.

<comment><USER24> Japan seems to be the exception actually, in the US houses certainly are appreciating assets, market crashes and such notwithstanding.

<comment><USER23> Usually the _land_ they are on is appreciating. The houses themselves depreciate.

Sometimes the distinction doesn't matter - but here one of the things we are talking about people knocking down serviceable houses to build new ones. This approach can sometimes even be compelling if land prices rise to a degree completely out of character with the homes originally built on them. See, for example, SF bay and Vancouver.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is cool. Would not know where to begin with gut renovation in Japan, though. And some of these look quite weathered.

In US for example, you can typically sub-contract parts of the renovation to get decent pricing. One team for the basement flooring. One for waterproofing / sump pump installation. And then perhaps install drywall / paint DIY.

Of course this is aided by close availability to Home Depot, Lowes, and wide array of contractor grade materials and fixtures ;)

<comment><USER26> Japan doesn't renovate. It's probably the only country in the world where "used homes" are considered something to be ashamed of. People buy homes only to knock them down and start over, even if they're only a year or two old.

EDIT: You can read about it here: [https://www.economist.com/finance-and- economics/2018/03/15/w...](https://www.economist.com/finance-and- economics/2018/03/15/why-japanese-houses-have-such-limited-lifespans)

<comment><USER27> Insane, every 22 years house goes to zero value. Probably adding relatively little money can extend the life to 40-50 or so. If I'm 30 and buy a house, makes no sense to need to tear it down when I'm 52.

<comment><USER24> Its just thinking of your house as a depreciating asset instead of an appreciating one. Much like a car. I actually can't imagine wanting to live in the same house for more than 10 years.

<comment><USER28> >I actually can't imagine wanting to live in the same house for more than 10 years.

Why? Unless your needs/life change so much that you either need to move somewhere or want a fundamentally different property. (Which of course aren't uncommon.)

But, in my case, my needs haven't radically changed. I've updated my 200 year old house to be like I want it. I can imagine a lifestyle change but it certainly wouldn't be to another house in the same area.

<comment><USER24> I probably worded that poorly, I meant I can't personally imagine living in the same house for 10 years. I can see why others would want to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> The title says "Japan Is Giving Away 8 Million Abandoned Houses — Here's How to Get One (Video)" there is nothing explained in the article nor in the video how to get one!

<comment><USER4> The article title is misleading. A better title would be:

"Japan has 8 million abandoned houses. A small fraction are being given away"

The article then links to a blog which occasionally links to empty houses for sale for very low prices. The blog gets its information from local government "empty house banks". Many local governments have these, but lots of them are not web based, you would have to go to the government offices in person to ask about empty houses.

In reality, the best way to find an empty house in Japan is to go driving around the countryside and talk to some locals. They know who owns what and who might be interested in selling.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I went to Japan in March to buy one of these houses for a vacation home (I go to Japan once or twice a year). I could have bought a decent sized house in rural Japan for about $20,000 at the time, but most of them I looked at needed a ton of work and there weren't many shopping areas and other amenities nearby. I ended up buying an older condo just outside of Tokyo and fixing that up instead. It cost more, but it works for me.

<comment><USER31> Mind sharing what you had to spend? This would be fascinating to do, but would be great to know the actual costs involved.

Also, would you share, more in depth, the experience as a whole: Do you speak Japanese, married to a Japanese citizen/are one? What was the biggest unexpected etc...

Basically, a blog post about such an endeavor would be great reading...

THanks

<comment><USER30> Sure. I'm an American, I'm fluent in Japanese, and I'm married to a Japanese citizen. However, I think it would be easy enough to find an English-speaking guide to go around with you and look at houses. I could suggest some people, if you're interested.

Regarding the houses, there were different requirements depending on the city we looked at. For example, in Sadogashima the cost was about $20,000 for a house, but then the city would pay you $10,000 to $15,000 just to move there because their population is dwindeling, so the house would only end up being $5,000 to $10,000 dollars. The only requirement for the deal in Sadogashima was that you had to commit to live there for at least a year or two. Other areas we looked were between Tokyo and Sendai. The costs were about the same everywhere we looked, but some areas would only sell these abandoned homes to people with young children, or between childbearing ages, because they wanted their kids to settle in those towns as well.

I think the most unexpected thing was the zoning laws in some of the areas. For example, in a few cases, the house was in the middle of the block and the only way to access it was via a narrow alley between two other houses. Zoning laws allowed the existing house to be there, but prohibited it from being torn down and rebuilt, and some of them were in desperate need of being rebuilt. If you do decide to look at these free/cheap houses in Japan, make sure to do your due diligence so you don't get stuck with crap heap that you cannot do anything with.

We ended up buying an old condo just outside of Tokyo for about $100,000. It was cheap because it had been neglected and was in bad shape and somebody had died there. I put another $30,000 into it to gut and remodel it. It cost more, but I figured I'd have to get a Japanese drivers' license, buy a car, register it, and insure the car if I lived in a rural area, whereas I could get by with just a bicycle and the trains if I live around Tokyo. I opted for a higher immediate cost and a lower long-term cost by buying where I wouldn't need a car. There's a lot more to do around Tokyo as well. So far, I've been happy with the decicion.

I thoroughly enjoyed traveling around rural Japan for three weeks, talking to people and looking at houses. I'd do it again just for the experience.

<comment><USER32> Thanks for this. I'm Canadian and married to a Japanese. We're starting to think long term about something like this, as I really want the life experience living in Japan and she's not super comfortable where we are now.

Do deals like this happen often? What do you do for work? I'm a sysadmin so I'm worried about work options, but that's a different conversation.

<comment><USER30> I'm a writer and software engineer. I've never seen deals like this before and I find it sad that their population is shrinking so much the these deals exist.

You should be able to find a job in one of the big cities. You'd have to commute, but the trains make that easy enough, I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> The site opens with a message that probably violates GDPR. In that access requires agreement to third-party tracking by US firms. So here's an archive: [https://web.archive.org/web/20181128233021/https://www.trave...](https://web.archive.org/web/20181128233021/https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel- news/japan-free-abandoned-house)

</comment><comment><USER34> Isn't it prohibitively hard to reside in Japan as an outsider? How can they expect to move up to 8mm houses unless predominantly to existing Japanese? Am I missing something?

<comment><USER35> Yes, you're missing that foreigners are not the target of these deals. Also it's not terribly complicated to get a visa to come here: you basically need at least a bachelor degree and to find a job. Given how the job market is starving for employees, it is not really hard. I know a half-dozen people of my country and my age that did it.

<comment><USER36> Aren't software engineers treated badly in Japan?

<comment><USER37> All workers are. It's practically indentured servitude, based on what I've read. It is also exceedingly difficult to be an entrepreneur there. Don't get me wrong though, it's a beautiful country to visit.

<comment><USER38> Whenever people say this, its always "based on what they've read".

Real work culture varies from company to company here, and isn't that different than US work culture overall.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Homes in Japan are generally depreciating assets with a roughly 20-30 year lifespan. Some of these homes being given away are older, but when you take ownership, you're basically getting land value. Whether or not the land is an appreciating asset is unknown, but the fact that no one wants it today says a lot. On the other hand, satoyama lifestyle is pretty special and amazing. I wonder if that culture can survive without a continuous lineage?

</comment><comment><USER40> This is just one of the many initiatives by the government or a local body to give away houses. The population in remote areas of Japan (aside from tourism) is declining quite fast.

I've had friends who have bought houses for as cheap as $600 in remote areas of Japan. [1]

If you are interested in owning a house in Japan then Okutama (a town close to Tokyo) is giving away houses with certain conditions. [2]

There are at least five other programs scattered around the Kyushu island and around the Tohoku region. You may want to check areas affected by natural / man-made disasters such as Rikuzentakata, which are "reviving" its cities or towns.

If you are a tourist you'll get accommodation and travel tickets to these "reviving" towns (free of charge) as well (just need to know where to look). [3]

[1] [https://imgur.com/74zVNlE](https://imgur.com/74zVNlE)

[2] [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/11/04/national/social...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/11/04/national/social- issues/aging-tokyo-town-lures-young-residents-offers-houses-land/)

[3] [https://www.detouur.com/rikuzentakatamain/](https://www.detouur.com/rikuzentakatamain/)

<comment><USER41> > If you are a tourist you'll get accommodation and travel tickets to these > "reviving" towns (free of charge) as well. > [https://www.detouur.com/rikuzentakatamain/](https://www.detouur.com/rikuzentakatamain/)

This particular example you gave, while probably cheap, is not free (~$225/day)

<comment><USER40> oh wow, didn't see that charge added there. We took the trip for free but that was six months ago.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> These houses look incredibly depressing and pretty old [1]. Not sure anyone would want to live in the middle of anything in a house that looks even worse than some places in Detroit.

1 - [https://inakanoseikatsu.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/11/sagis...](https://inakanoseikatsu.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/11/sagishima_in-1024x527.png)

<comment><USER17> Not free, but I ran a search for nearby used homes and this is the cheapest one that came up:

[https://www.rakusumu.com/sale/detail/00088-200291](https://www.rakusumu.com/sale/detail/00088-200291)

That's about $7000 USD, and while I am sure there are many issues, it looks livable at least. It's also a decent enough location, close to the beach, shopping, a train station, schools, etc. It's not for me, but for someone looking to eliminate rent/mortgage payments from their life it could be an option.

Or if you're willing to step up considerably you could do something like this:

[https://www.rakusumu.com/sale/detail/00007-200159](https://www.rakusumu.com/sale/detail/00007-200159)

That's about $95k USD... and with no down payment and a 35 year fixed loan at 2.05% [1], your mortgage payments would be about $320/mo. Much cheaper than I suspect many HN readers pay in rent and you would own a fairly large and newly renovated house. Note however that to get a loan as a foreigner in Japan you would probably need to be a permanent resident. Also... I cringe a bit to think of how cold that house must be in winter.

Anyway - my point is not to disagree with you because I think you're right about probably not wanting to live in any house you can get for free. Rather just to point out that if anyone is really interested in moving to Japan, there are lots of affordable housing options to be found at number of different price points.

[1] [https://www.shinseibank.com/english/housing/loan_kinri.pdf](https://www.shinseibank.com/english/housing/loan_kinri.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> > _If this continues, at some point it may be necessary to consider limiting > new construction. But that would have a substantial impact on the economy._

Lots of housing no one wants, but, we still need to keep building other housing that people do want.

Reminds me of the US labor market. Lots of people companies don't want to hire so we gotta bring in other people that companies do want to hire.

But, what should the US do with those unwanted people?

</comment><comment><USER44> What the article is missing are the restrictions being imposed on age and size of family. They hope young families will come into the rural areas and reinvigorate these towns. Here is another article with more specific details.

[https://www.rethinktokyo.com/free-houses-japan- countryside](https://www.rethinktokyo.com/free-houses-japan-countryside)

</comment><comment><USER45> Late comment, but I have a relative in Japan and I asked about this:

"The empty houses are caused by two factors. Aging population with younger people moving to the cities and the the way property taxes work. Empty lots have much higher taxes than ones with houses on them. So if a house becomes empty because of people dying off, it's cheaper to just let an old house be abandoned and wait until you are ready to rebuild than to tear it down and pay high taxes. Houses aren't worth much in Japan. Average houses aren't built to last as earthquakes and humidity tend to cause deterioration. However the government will take the property if the taxes aren't paid on it for a certain period. The free houses isn't really a thing."

</comment><comment><USER46> In Detroit some people - actually, Bill Pulte - are razing dwellings with an eye on redevelopment.

[https://www.theblightauthority.com/](https://www.theblightauthority.com/)

</comment><comment><USER47> There are only 49 million homes in Japan according to Google. 8 million abandoned homes means that almost one in six homes are abandoned. Is that possible?!

<comment><USER48> Yes, that's better than China (22% vacancy rate, without counting rural regions)

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Not immediately seeing any information on whether foreigners can acquire these houses, or if it's limited to citizens or permanent residents etc.

<comment><USER50> There's no restriction, but these properties are really in a bad way. You might also want to look at Japan Real Estate: [https://www.realestate.co.jp/en/](https://www.realestate.co.jp/en/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Is "Wolf Children" an accurate portrayal of what it will be like to renovate one of these houses? (minus the wolves)

</comment><comment><USER52> So could any foreigner (non-Japanese national with no particular business in Japan) seize one of those up?

</comment><comment><USER53> If something violent happened in a house.. and people believe that this is bad luck.. does this make those people more likely to commit violent acts against the next home-owner, like self fulfilling prophecy?

</comment><comment><USER54> Sucks to be a current home owner in the general vicinity of these free homes.

</comment><comment><USER55> I lived in one of these! My friend was married to a Japanese woman and they got a free 10 year lease on an abandoned house. It was very romantic, especially with the tanuki running around in the ceiling.

</comment><comment><USER56> How would one actually go about purchasing one of these 'free' houses? It doesn't seem to be a very foreigner friendly website.

</comment><comment><USER57> Solution to SF homelessness problem.

<comment><USER58> i don't know why this is being downvoted. the core idea is a good one. Start moving people away from expensive areas and have them populate areas like the rust belt where housing is much cheaper. Detroit is pretty cost effective as others have mentioned.

<comment><USER59> Rust belt and Detroit get cold in the winter. Homeless people gravitate to places that will not kill them in their sleep. The climate (temperate/weather, government, and population) are what draw homeless to specific areas.

<comment><USER60> The parent is implying you'd buy them the property, not just move them and still have them sleep outside.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> i think landlords would still buy some of these at a discount (but not nothing) just to gain market share. thats assuming they dont get taxed very much.

</comment><comment><USER62> there are only 6 properties listed for free. 6 < 8M

<comment><USER63> Out of those 6:

\- 4 have already been transferred, so it's only free if you have a time machine

\- the other 2 are dead links

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> If you want to live in a off-grid area. Sure.

</comment><comment><USER27> as soon as I sell my $5 Detroit homes :).

There's a reason they're being given for free...

<comment><USER65> I always felt like The Walking Dead was missing an opportunity to do some good.

Years ago I read about a movie production crew that got permission to demolish a rundown public building as part of filming in exchange for rebuilding it afterward.

For TWD you could use several of those abandoned Detroit neighborhoods for a sequence and then bulldoze the neighborhood to the foundations afterward, reducing the health and safety concerns.

<comment><USER66> Ha. The idea of using Detroit for TWD, or even perhaps it's own spinoff series, is pretty gold, tbh.

<comment><USER67> It's not about the location, but about the tax credits...

<comment><USER68> Gov Snyder (with house) got rid of tax credits.

<comment><USER67> = no Walking Dead in Detroit :-)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Londoners need not worry about the waiting time paradox - <AUTHOR> http://www.michalpaszkiewicz.co.uk/blog/timetables/ <comment><USER2> London seems to have rediculously small distance between bus stops. This feels like it makes journeys take ages. Is this my imagination or does London have particularly close stops, and is there a good reason for this?

<comment><USER3> I don't believe this to be the case in Outer London, at least it's no different to smaller towns in the UK I've visited.

In Central and parts of Inner London it may be the case, however I tend to think buses are primarily designed as vehicles to get people to and from the tube/train network there.

<comment><AUTHOR> It certainly depends where, some parts of Outer London can be "Hail and Ride" sections, where any part of the street essentially counts as a station

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why is the conclusion that the operator is padding its schedule instead of simply that the busses run on time? I understand that in the real world the former seems more likely, but I don't see how that conclusion is supported by the data presented. (Caveat lector: my prob & stats is weaker than it should be; there's a good chance I'm missing something obvious.)

<comment><AUTHOR> The schedule is not necessarily padded. The point of the piece is making it clear that London bus timetables are not in any way a source of truth, but a contract that operators have to work towards achieving. It is doubtless that they would have some input into what times are accepted as the contract and would only accept one they think they could manage to operate - so greater times than would generally be achievable.

As a londoner, if you wanted a timetable more based on truth, it would look more like the attached graphic on the page - an analysis of the spread of waiting times.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Author here, you can AMA

<comment><USER5> Have you read showhn rules?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes - this page is not just a blog post. It contains a graphic that is a "timetable of truth" for London buses 1-50, so can certainly be tried out.</comment></comment></comment>


Making a Programming Language that can Think for You - <AUTHOR> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzYmO20N6MY

<comment><USER2> The "programming language that thinks for you" is a stretch. The Wolfram API and development kit could be an amazing visualization and research tool.

I would love to have a university grant for a couple of years to hack with this :)</comment>


Origin Of Wireless Security: The Marconi Radio Hack Of 1903 (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://hackaday.com/2017/03/02/great-hacks-of-history-the-marconi-radio-hack-1903/ <comment><USER2> The "security" came from the fact it was tuned to receive a specific frequency. Earlier radios were not very selective on which frequencies they would accept.

The main benefit was not actually security but a reduction in congestion. Spewing interference out randomly is not an efficient use of airwaves.

<comment><USER3> Except that the one in the demo wasn't, enabling the hack:

 _It was discovered that the receiver that Fleming had been using was not, in the phrasing of the time, syntonic. It wasn't tuned to a specific frequency, excluding all others, because a syntonic receiver would have been too large to use in the demo._

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Discussed at the time (2017 that is, not 1903): [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13779504](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13779504)

</comment><comment><USER5> A nicely-done video on the topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2qqMegNKA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2qqMegNKA)

</comment><comment><USER6> Is there a typo in the Latin? "Qui vult decipi, decipatur"

I Google'd it and got this:

[https://m.openjurist.org/law-dictionary-ballentines/qui- vult...](https://m.openjurist.org/law-dictionary-ballentines/qui-vult-decipi- decipiatur)

<comment><USER7> Probably pig Latin. Quid volit decipere, decipatur would be better. "Qui vult" definitely looks like Old French.

<comment><USER8> I think I read somewhere that English language legal settings have a history of a peculiar dialect of French mixed in, owing to the Norman history in Britain.

<comment><USER9> Norman, and Napoleon. The landed aristocracy has moved back and forth across the channel for a thousand years. They also fought countless wars against, and a couple alongside, each other. That creates a common culture that bleeds into all language. It happened in law, but also greatly in medicine and other sciences.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Should have [2017] tag.

</comment><comment><USER11> Macaroni?

<comment><USER12> Spelling corrector failure?</comment></comment>


Show HN: Project productivity tool to compete with big brands - <AUTHOR> https://simpleboard.tech <comment><AUTHOR> I'm planning on building a productivity tool that combines the best bits of all the bigger brands and packaging it into an affordable solution. Fully customisable with an addictive UI look, feel and interactivity. I appreciate some people are stuck with what they know in current providers, Simple Board is going to provide a fresh, modern, addictive approach into the market which will sky rocket productivity in individual projects and team projects.

Less clutter. More focus. Especially on the kanban board page. This will be completely focused in on your project and tasks only. Think of a clean modern writing app these days with hardly any GUI. It lets you focus on writing. Now apply the same sort of style and feature to a kanban board. Very nice to look at, awesome, addictive functionality within the board which motivates you to get your project tasks or tickets done so you can interact with the board.

Intuitive task list view which will let you efficiently and effectively see your workload in a slick, productive list - Again, gives you that ability to really focus in on what's going on.

There will be some project specific settings in terms of if it's a personal or team project which will be highly beneficial.

I know trello has customisations in there as well but Simple Board will provide this in a configuration / settings page which you control completely from here, again, separating this cluttering functionality from the actual board itself, allowing you to really focus in.

A lot more I could say at this stage and a lot more that will most likely be added as I develop.

<comment><USER2> So... this is a "Show HN", just pointing to a landing page for something you are thinking about.

<comment><AUTHOR> "Thinking about" \- It's in development, around 85% complete. It's definitely a showcase to spark interest.

<comment><USER2> OK, your description did not give that impression, as every time you described something, you said it in the future tense. You may want to communicate more clearly what you have built vs. where you want to take it in the future.

<comment><USER3> I guess because it isn't released so I'm thinking future wise. Sorry for the misinterpretation :)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: MerkleX, What Do You Think of My New Exchange? - <AUTHOR> https://merklex.io/trade/ <comment><AUTHOR> I've been working on this for the past year. Any feedback would be much appreciated.</comment>


Funding your startup with a "one week on, three weeks off" consulting setup - <AUTHOR> http://blog.statuspage.io/funding-your-startup-with-a-one-week-on-three-weeks-off-setup <comment><USER2> Another way to approach this is to start a consulting business full-time, and use it as a springboard for whatever product idea strikes your fancy once you're established. As in, later; like, maybe a year later.

It's true that it's hard to balance consulting and product as a bootstrapping product startup. I used to get hung up on trying to explain how doable it is while acknowledging the pitfalls. Now I think, if you're not sure which way to go, put aside the product and just get a consulting practice up and running. Don't try to balance it. Don't worry about how you'll fit product into it.

I think you'll find that starting a product (or multiple products!) from a consulting practice is much, much easier than trying to do it by quitting a full-time W2 job. Meanwhile, probably about 40% of the work you do in your consulting practice is going to apply directly to your product company --- you'll learn to sell, to bill clients, to hire, to run payroll, and (most importantly) how to work with your team members.

<comment><USER3> That was my plan, then i ended up with 30 consultants. Now I'm just really enjoying running a consulting business!

<comment><USER2> Obviously, there are worse failing modes than ending up running a company you love. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think that the progression is usually:

full time employee -> part time contractor -> consultant with own clients -> own team and agency -> your own startup

investors can short circuit this, but this is how many companies including 37signals started

<comment><USER5> Scott and I were able to pretty much jump from full time employee to the 1 week on -- 3 week off model. We did have one client in between that was just a 4 week job. The only reason we were doing consulting was to bankroll us while we worked on our product -- so we pretty much skipped the own clients and team/agency step.

I do think most people probably took the route you described though.

<comment><USER6> It'd be great if you could give some more details around finding and arranging work with this ideal client. It doesn't seem likely that this was your first interaction with the client. What was your relationship before you guys quit your job? How did you initially get in touch with them?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Guide to Starting a (Really) Successful Business:

Step 1: Start a successful business.

Step 2: Use the money from step one to start your _really_ successful business.

Step 3: Profit

</comment><comment><USER8> I like this concept but it is a client that can cater for this schedule.

I work three days a week as a consultant and the rest of the week I work on my product <http://weekplan.net>

Yes you have to context switch a bit, but you can deal with urgent stuff for both the client and your product on an ongoing basis.

It is easier to find a client that is ok for you to work only three days a week, and this is very important because it makes finding clients easier and therefore you re not distracted from your product.

Also because I can't work on my product for three days, it gives me some perspective on what I am doing and recharge the motivation battery constantly.

</comment><comment><USER9> My team and I also tried this same approach for my mobile education startup - but differently.

The issue with working one week on, and three weeks off is that the client is willing to accommodate you flying off the radar for three weeks, and that makes it hard for them to plan their product according to your timing.

What we tried at App Ninja was to work a normal six day week, 12 hours a day. We would work on our product for the first 8 hours of the day, and the remaining 4 hours, we will work on our client projects.

I am an iOS developer and am fluent with web backends. So I was doing everything from iOS development to Ruby on Rails web apps. We charged by the project instead of hourly, and at one point in time, I actually earned USD $2,000 in 4 hours by completing a project in that time span.

If you work fast, charging by the project, instead of hourly can actually be beneficial.

We did this for almost 5 months to get our product off the ground, and other than being absolutely physically exhausting, it worked pretty well. Our clients were none the wiser, as we still delivered projects on time and on schedule.

<comment><USER10> Working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week sounds hard. How did you manage?

<comment><USER9> We didn't really manage it well, and it was not sustainable beyond a year.

I remember feeling stressed out and exhausted all the time, having to manage client expectations and still keep working on my product.

What I would do is that I would start work at 12 p.m. everyday, and work until 12 a.m. from Monday to Saturday. Then I would crash on Sunday, and repeat the cycle.

We did this from Dec 2012 till end of Apr 2013, until our product was bringing in at least consistently four-figures a month, and we drastically scaled back on client work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Sometime if you're not a hacker or you're one but want to focus on your startup, then taking a less "serious" job can do the trick also. I've met we've guys that even worked night shifts in security and coded all day long. Others did even customer support from home. Got the bills paid while they build their project. Getting a $4K a month client is something that's can take considerable amount of time to achieve.

<comment><USER12> To me that seems a very good idea. Doing security at a place where you don't have to be on guard at all times (something like a receptionist job) means you can work on your product and get paid to do it with some distractions.

<comment><USER11> That's exactly what he has done. The thing is that he was a team leader in a large tech company, and could earn something like 6x in compared to the money he earned in security, if he got a full time job. But he told me that with a full time job he can't possibly develop anything for himself.

But that's not always an easy thing to do when you are 35 as he was.</comment></comment></comment>


Making Plutonium-238 in large enough quantities is an ongoing challenge - <AUTHOR> http://www.popsci.com/nasa-can-make-3-more-nuclear-batteries-and-thats-it

<comment><USER2> I've been wondering if tritium could be used as an alternative power source for the nuclear batteries used on space missions. Of course tritium has to be "manufactured" just like plutonium-238, but on the other hand it can be made from lithium using a fusion reactor [1].

But wait, you're thinking, fusion reactors based on current technology consume more energy than they can produce. That's true, but also irrelevant if your business model is producing tritium rather than energy. This is because the going rate for tritium (according to Wikipedia) is something like $30,000 per gram [2].

I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are on fusion reactors, but I think they're a lot less onerous than licensing a new fission reactor. I don't think there's any licensing requirement at all for a small fusion reactor like a Farnsworth fusor.

Disclaimer: This is just idle speculation because I haven't done the math.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Power_Production](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Power_Production)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium#Self- powered_lighting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium#Self-powered_lighting)

<comment><USER3> Nuclear 'batteries' are radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs). They require a pretty substantial amount of heat to produce electricity. I don't know about temperatures, but tritium produces a decay energy of 0.018590 MeV, versus plutonium-238's 5.593 MeV. Assuming you can scale it up directly, the 4.8kg of plutonium-238 in Curiosity would be equivalent to 1444kg of tritium. It's just way, way less energy dense.

Edit: This explanation is way, way off. See response from 'throwaway_yy2Di

<comment><USER4> There's two other differences you'd need to account for:

* One Pu-238 nucleus weighs 238 amu; a triton only weighs 3 amu

* Tritium decays 7 times faster -- a 12.32 year half-life, vs. 87.7 years for Pu-238

Put together, the specific power (watts/kg) of pure tritium is about twice as high. That's chemically just hydrogen gas, which I'd guess isn't practical. The solids with the highest hydrogen density, like polyethylene ([C2H4]n), would be less power-dense, but not by much.

But I think there's some slack here. The ESA is designing their future RTGs to use Americium-241, which is drastically worse (in terms of these figures), yet still usable.

<comment><USER3> Ah hah -- great points, thanks! Edited my original post to note that my analysis was woefully incomplete.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We may have to reconsider some aspects of non-proliferation for the sake of space exploration. Not just for nuclear batteries, but also for things like Project Orion which tried nuclear propulsion.

<comment><USER6> Orion is a really cool concept and it's a lot of fun to think about, but realistically any space propulsion system that horribly contaminates the atmosphere and fries every satellite anywhere near Earth is not an option.

<comment><USER7> You wouldn't use the nukes until you're safely out of earths atmosphere which is easily attainable by having two separate propulsion systems.

<comment><USER6> You lose much of the advantage of Orion, since Orion is extremely heavy, and you're doing the hardest part of the work without it. You also have to wait until you're pretty far away from Earth, not just out of the atmosphere, before you start blowing up nukes unless you want to destroy all electronics in sight.

<comment><USER8> Not if it is assembled by nanobots on the moon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Doesn't Plutonium-238 occurs naturally along the Thorium decay chain? I believe that it's fairly easy (relatively speaking) to capture 238 from the Thorium nuclear reactor process.

A Thorium-based nuclear reactor prototype has already been successfully run for years at Oakridge National Laboratory- seeing the value of Plutonium-238, it might justify the cost of building a full grade Pu238-extraction nuclear reactor.

<comment><USER10> I've consistently heard the following two claims about thorium reactors:

1\. They offer a number of advantages in safety, efficiency, input materials, byproducts. No comparative disadvantages.

2\. The United States is not actively pursuing any plans to implement thorium reactors.

Is the above really true, or are there some comparative disadvantages to a Thorium reactor vs a traditional nuclear reactor? If the above is true, there must be some conflict of interest (imagine that, a conflict of interest in the domain of energy!) causing #2. Is there a legal issue?

<comment><USER11> From what I have read, the best traditional fission plant designs are very safe, efficient, and produce few byproducts. It's the older plants that have problems but we have learned from them and made improvements.

Compared to the most state-of-the-art plant, thorium reactors are not significantly better and we have years of first-hand experience with traditional uranium reactors and very little with liquid fluoride thorium reactors so the incentives to start at square 1 with an new technology are small.

So the good news is if we ever got over our irrational fear of nuclear power, we have time-tested plans for safe, clean and efficient power plants ready to be built.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The Nature article that PopSci links to goes way more in depth and is a great read: [http://www.nature.com/news/nuclear-power-desperately- seeking...](http://www.nature.com/news/nuclear-power-desperately-seeking- plutonium-1.16411). Also brings up discussion of the need of much more powerful energy sources (potentially nuclear) for proposed human space exploration missions.

</comment><comment><USER13> If people (politicians, and public) would just get rid of their prejudices and we could just develop a nuclear reactor for outer system exploration and be done with it...

Fuel would not be such a pain to manufacture, there'd be oodles of more power available (more bandwidth for communications, nuclear electric propulsion for faster travel times), and the reactor would be just as safe, if not safer to lift to orbit (unused nuclear fuel is not radioactive, Pu-238 is, although it's so well sealed that it's practically impossible to free it to environment on an accident).

</comment><comment><USER14> I wonder if for activities near the gas giants the massive Magnetospheres could be tapped for energy as the satellites move through them. However over time you'd be trading orbital elevation for energy.

Another great side effect of RTG's is the "waste" heat keeps your electronics from freezing in the deep of space.

</comment><comment><USER15> The problem is that the production methodologies for Pu-238 are ridiculous and have a ridiculous number of volatile critical dependencies in both the creation and harvesting process.

"This has been the method of choice at the Department of Energy's Savannah River Site (SRS) production reactors. However, there are several shortcomings with this method of production. First, the production efficiency is quite limited, i.e., to approximately 13% efficiency. This is seen from the fact that the Pu-238 produced in the target after only 2.12 day's half-life decay, itself becomes a target for production of higher isotopes of plutonium, thus reducing the Pu-238 purity by producing Pu-239 and Pu-240. Second, this process produce a hazardous Pu-236 by-product. As noted on the decay chain, above, there is a η→2η or γ→η reaction that results in the production of Uranium-236 (U-236) and Pu-236. These reactions increase with exposure to fast neutron flux. Pu-236 decays to U-232, which has a hazardous gamma-ray energy emitting daughter product. Even a few parts per million U-232 increase the radiation exposure hazard to personnel dramatically. Lastly, Np-237 must be chemically purified before target fabrication. This is seen from the fact that Np-237 decays to Protactinium-233 (Pa-233), which in turn has a strong gamma- ray emission with its beta decay to U-233 (half-life 27 days). Therefore, the Np-237 was stored in solution at SRS and chemically processed immediately before fabricating targets. Solution storage of Np-237 may not be practical at an alternate production site."

Source: [http://www.google.com/patents/US6896716](http://www.google.com/patents/US6896716)

The extent to which this should worry our interstellar concerns is huge. The voyager 1 went several billion kilometers away from the Sun. You know it's crazy, it's so far away that it takes 15-20 hours for the signal to reach us.

The voyager 1 is probably going to go out in like 2020, but that's because of the Plutonium- 238.

There's 2 sites in the USA that can produce it.

Hanford in Washington State and Savannah River Site in South Carolina.

The Russians have Mayak, and thank goodness they kept making the stuff.

Hopefully we can pump some steroidal funding into High Flux Isotope Reactors.

I've been watching this issue since 2006. In 2009, someone finally spoke up about it and published some papers on it.

[http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12653](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12653)

Any NRE's or Particle Accelerator Designers on HN?

<comment><USER16> 238Pu is always going to be problematic because of the fact that the target material is only available in the US in weapons-grade form. USG moved all of it to secure storage at INL, and are very cautious about any program to transport it for 238Pu production. Hopefully they can get ATR moving and keep missions supplied.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Was lucky enough to get to see Dave Lavery (Program Executive for Solar System Exploration at NASA) speak about Curiosity a year or so back; on the Rover's radioisotope thermoelectric generator, he mentioned that these devices come as a complete package from the DoE (so Nasa had little say in the power characteristics, for example, which constrained what they could do with it), and that technically they are 'on loan' to Nasa.

The DoE has no plans, so far as I'm aware, to go and get the one on Curiosity back when Nasa's finished with it.

<comment><USER18> That's the real mission for those unmanned boeing test spacecraft - they are the precursors and work-in-progress test craft for the classified military project to reach Mars 10 years before current estimates of civilian efforts (including NASA) in order to retrieve the generator from the rovers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Realistically, any form of power generation could be used in space. It's really only a question of whether it's financially and practically feasible. I've been interested to see if Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors (LFTRs) ever become a thing.

From what I've read about LFTRs, they can produce a whole lot of power- the most efficient system produces 1000-MW(e) from 700kg of fuel. That lasts approximately 12.5 years, give or take.

Obviously, thats on an Earth-based system and most spacecraft probably don't need anywhere close to 1GW.

<comment><USER20> > _" Realistically, any form of power generation could be used in space. It's > really only a question of whether it's financially and practically > feasible."_

Are you referring only to nuclear power sources? Because a literal reading of your comment ("any form of power generation") is obviously silly (e.g. steam power). And questions of financial and practical feasibility are two of the most important considerations for nuclear power systems, so one shouldn't dismiss those concerns so easily.

<comment><USER21> Closed loop steam power is actually not that unreasonable in space.

Concentrated solar cells have been considered for a range of space operations. They generate a lot of waste heat, which opens the way for a range of heat engines. Currently, non concentrated solar is a clear winner but serious effort went into studying combined systems.

Long term several space mining concepts involve using concentrated sunlight to heat and refine asteroids. This would tend to make quite a bit of waste heat and steam power is one method to utilize that waste heat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Another aspect of this that the article fails to mention is that NASA has tried to come up with more efficient thermo-acoustic energy converters than the existing seebeck-effect RTG's for radioactive sources [1], but the projects went terribly over budget and got cancelled.

[1] [http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/van- kane/20131208...](http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/van- kane/20131208-the-asrg-cancellation-in-context.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> So I thought, maybe we could beam energy to satellites?

Using: [http://www.pseudonomen.com/lasers/calculators/index.html](http://www.pseudonomen.com/lasers/calculators/index.html)

If I beam 1 GigaWatt to Jupiter from Earth at closest approach, with the same beam divergence as current moon-shooting laser technology, they could gather at 0.10655 W/m^2.. so terrible. Truly RTG FTW.

</comment><comment><USER22> The article mentions other batteries that can use the existing Plutonium 238 more efficiently, but is it not possible to design a battery/generator that runs on an alternative nuclear fuel source?

<comment><USER23> Other fuels are possible, however Plutonium 238 is preferred for these purposes for a number of reasons: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_gen...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator#Fuels)

<comment><USER22> That's a great explanation, thank you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Linkbait headline. As this article itself (last line) alludes to, production of plutonium-238 has restarted[0]. So we have enough for three more batteries, but are producing more...

[0] [http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-03/first-time- col...](http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-03/first-time-cold-war-us- making-plutonium-238)

<comment><USER25> Apparently, the rate of production is enough for just one deep-space mission per decade.

<comment><USER26> Could we not reprocess uranium into plutonium from commercial reactors to recycle the waste and use that for space probes?

<comment><USER16> 238Pu is only efficiently manufactured by activating 237Np.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Maybe nasa can ask Iran for help.

<comment><USER28> It's a pity you're getting downvoted, I thought it was funny.

On a serious note, presuming a significant increase in trust among all parties, wouldn't this idea radically change an ominous situation (Iran having weapons-grade plutonium laying around) into one with peaceful, mutually beneficial, trust-building cooperation between formerly antagonistic nations? Have not stranger things happened?

<comment><USER16> Iran was enriching Uranium, not producing Plutonium. Furthermore, this type of Plutonium is not what you desire for nuclear weapons material.

<comment><USER29> Iran has a plutonium reactor as well, although its exact capabilities and output are a matter of debate: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR-40](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR-40)

<comment><USER16> I'm skeptical that this small reactor rivaled the Uranium program. If your rush 239Pu production, you end up with a product that is very difficult to purify, raises the probability of a fizzle, and generates thermal problems for the pit.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Is software now everybody's job? The implications of low-code - <AUTHOR> https://www.zdnet.com/article/is-software-now-everybodys-job-the-implications-of-low-code-and-no-code-for-developers/ <comment><USER2> Hasn't software been (almost) everybody's job for the past decade? Many millions of people use Excel on a daily / weekly basis.</comment>


The Billion Dollar Gram - <AUTHOR> http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/the-billion-dollar-gram/

<comment><USER2> It's a pretty graph, but oh do I ever wish it was just a bar chart or something. Comparing areas accurately is difficult.

For instance, comparing the Chinese gov't stimulus package versus the New Deal. The two squares look just about equivalent despite one being a full 14% larger. Other methods of comparison could make that pretty clear.

<comment><USER3> 14% larger _is_ just about equivalent. It's certainly within the error bars on the inflation numbers. (Consider the price of a megabyte of memory in 1940 versus today, or free-range beef, or ivory, or Viagra, or insulin.)

A bar chart would make it hard to compare things more than an order of magnitude apart, and a logarithmic scale would make it impossible to show relations "A as a part of B".

<comment><USER2> _Maybe_ in this case, but since he's not showing the error bars nobody really knows. The question of whether 14% difference is significant isn't even something you are able to cogently discuss within the bounds of this infographic.

Multiple comparisons across bar charts could cover the same points of the current chart (you're not really comparing things of greater than an order of magnitude apart with any sort of accuracy), but I'm also not terribly defensive of the bars. There's just nothing all that great about area comparisons of squares, especially when the layout is somewhat arbitrary.

<comment><USER3> We know he's trying to correct for inflation, and we know the error bars on inflation numbers over such a long period of time are pretty enormous. How much Xanax would you pay for a house with an uninterrupted view of old-growth redwood forest?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> $515 billion to shift entire world to renewables? That's got to be off by 2 orders of magnitude.

<comment><USER5> In which direction?

<comment><USER4> Upwards - It would probably take more than $1 per person!

I'm assuming the number was originally a guess at the money that would have to be poured into research to achieve RE < C, because less than $100 per person for a total switch to renewables is clearly wrong. That's a bit too handwavey to be included amongst other hard figures on a graph like this though.

<comment><USER5> Yes, it's a bit hand-wavy. Though after RE<C the transition is essentially self-funding.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hey, now I don't feel so bad about the Iraq war anymore! We found a different boondoggle to waste all our money on.

</comment><comment><USER7> standing armies can only exist because of universal high taxation which is a relatively new phenomenon. monarchies couldn't afford major wars because they only raised about 10% in taxes.

and of course once you have a standing army you have to justify its expenses. use it or lose it as they say.

<comment><USER5> I would not use "monarchies" as the contrast. There have been republics in the past, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I don't understand the value of this being a 2D representation. Wouldn't the data be easier to understand in a bar graph?

Also, why is it called _The Billion Dollar Gram_?

<comment><USER9> I believe the "Gram" part of the title comes from the names of other types of plots. For example, histo _gram_ or correlo _gram_. This plot deals with dollar values in the billions, hence "The Billion Dollar Gram".

Edit: fixed italics

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Damn this makes me angry. Look at all the awesome shit we could pay for if we had the motivation...arg!

<comment><USER6> Seriously. Cancel the Iraq war and everyone could get free cocaine!

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> By the way, for military economist types - could someone explain to me exactly why the Iraq war costs so much? I mean, what specifically costs?

You've got increased wartime pay to soldiers, and pay to defense contractors. Energy costs and munitions. Construction and military engineering...

...and then what? It's a counter-insurgency, it's not like the military is unloading cruise missiles or nuking cities or getting aircraft shot down. What costs so much? Once the conventional warfare ended, the military construction/engineering/bases were built, and all the troops and gear were in place, wouldn't the costs be not-so-highly elevated over keeping a standing army and regular training? Just ammunition, increased wartime pay, and defense contractors no?

I guess it's kind of an ugly supply chain in hostile territory in the desert, but Saudi Arabia and Turkey are nominally allied, so it shouldn't be too hard to buy/ship food and ammunition through there. There's lots of cheap oil and refineries nearby. Where's all the money going?

<comment><USER12> I'm not a military economist type, but I'll take a stab at this.

Apart from the costs you cite, which are certainly significant, there's the cost of replacing equipment, much of which dies quite quickly in the desert.

There's also the cost of oil (which the US buys, and doesn't just steal out of Iraq's oil wells, as far as I know). Believe it or not, the US military is the largest single consumer of oil in the world. Here's an interesting article about it:

<http://www.energybulletin.net/node/13199>

From the figures in that article, I'd estimate that the US military uses about $10 billion a year in oil, at today's prices.

Contractors are a huge expense. From what I've read, there are as many contractors in Iraq as there are US military personnel, each getting paid much, much more than a soldier.

According to the following article, the US spent about $100 billion on contractors between 2003 and 2008:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7557995.stm>

Then there's all the money that's simply "lost". For example:

 _"How the US sent $12bn in cash to Iraq. And watched it vanish"_

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1>

There are no doubt many other expenses, such as the new $600 million "embassy" in Iraq (which is going to cost $1.2 billion a year to operate).

For more details see the Congressional Budget Office's report on the _"Estimated Costs of U.S. Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan"_

[http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/86xx/doc8690/10-24-CostOfWar_Test...](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/86xx/doc8690/10-24-CostOfWar_Testimony.pdf)

and _"The Three Trillion Dollar War"_ :

[http://www.amazon.com/Three-Trillion-Dollar-War- Conflict/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Three-Trillion-Dollar-War- Conflict/dp/0393334171)

Unfortunately, as outrageous as the money wasted on the war is, the human cost has been much worse, and it may not be fully paid for generations to come.

<comment><USER13> These are some _very serious_ numbers you mention here. Just take a look at this TED talk - _just $8 billion_ to halve the number of people without access to drinking water.

[http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_pritchard_invents_a_water_f...](http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_pritchard_invents_a_water_filter.html)

Imagine what can be achieved with hundreds of billions, if used constructively.

$100 billion on contractors? wow

Why can't the US military increase the pay for the soldiers, hire more soldiers and reduce the number of contractors? These contractors are in it just for the money, don't have any respect for laws/human life as blackwater has repeatedly demonstrated.

They should really think twice, thrice before starting any war, and especially an unnecessary one.

<comment><USER14> s/war/invasion/g

Calling it a "war" is misleading.

Malthusianism? They invade to secure the extraction of the oil they need for the invasion army.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Some of the rectangle sizes look wrong. Compare "Walmart Profits" to "OPEC Climate Change Fund". Compare Google to Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER16> That really is a beautiful visualization.

</comment><comment><USER17> meh. To be fare I'd like to see "Worst Case" boxes for everything else...

</comment><comment><USER18> Thieves.

The war on terror was an excuse to funnel billions to the pockets of handpicked contractors in Iraq.

Then the stimulus, billions upon billions went to the hands of corporate thugs who got fat checks to continue spending more and more without compromise.

Politics is the greatest robbery of all times and propaganda its greatest weapon.

As long as they feed us manipulated news and keep us on the verge of mental collapse, they will do whatever they want with us, and our money.

First, terrorism that wasn't, then the recession that didn't. I know they are planning the next alarmist event to steal more and more from us.

<comment><USER19> Comments like this are why I no longer visit Digg and Reddit, and I don't like seeing them on HN.

Also, please define "they". You can't just blame all of the problems in the world on a pronoun.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Someone forgot Afghanistan!</comment>


REBOL Shell Interface - <AUTHOR> http://www.rebol.com/docs/shell.html <comment><USER2> REBOL was such a fun language to use. I wish it was open sourced earlier, then it might have made a larger impact. RED is a spiritual successor that deserves a look as well: [https://www.red-lang.org/](https://www.red-lang.org/)

<comment><USER3> Both REBOL and Red feel magical to me. How is this simplicity achievable? Where is the trick?

I never could dig too deep into those, and couldn't find much info on the net. Is there a set of seminal papers/articles on the principles which those are based off?

I imagine there's Logo on one side of it, but I'm not sure about the bootstrap story, the toolchain, etc... Meta-II? Smalltalk, Lisp?

I recently found this book [https://subscription.packtpub.com/book/application_developme...](https://subscription.packtpub.com/book/application_development/9781789130706) which I'd like to read if it talks about that holistic approach. Any comments? other pointers?

<comment><USER4> Historically, Rebol family takes roots in the ideas of symbolic programming, denotational semantics and distributed computing. It never was an academical project (so you won't find any papers or articles), but rather a mix of pragmatism mixed with nonacceptance of the current state of software, so there's no magic to it: you reject the bloat and keep things simple.

The core idea is that, in Red/Rebol, you don't write "code" in the usual sense of the word, but rather load a data structure in memory that interpreters/compilers then process.

This data structure is a concrete-syntax tree (CST), a product of lexing syntactically-rich data format (think of a human-centered, futuristic JSON with unique literal forms for things like IP addresses with RGBA tuples, dates in various ISO formats, monetary values, URLs, e-mails, etc). The result of evaluation, then, is the end game of interpreters/compilers "walking" this CST — and each one can interpret the same tree differently.

So, Red/Rebol is both a programming language and a data format, there is no distinction between code and data. Rebol called itself "messaging language" because this CST, coupled with semantic rules for its interpretation, constitutes an embedded DSL (aka dialect), a message that you can exchange not only between machines (as a data structure), but between machines and humans (as a readable format).

Implementation-wise, the leverage comes from the runtime library that reuses what OS provides, high degree of polymorphism, everything being a first-class citizen, and above-mentioned syntactically-rich homoiconicity with general orientation towards linguistic abstraction.

With all of that we end up with a tool (speaking of Red) that covers the whole spectrum of software development, from metal to meta: user-land functions that seamlessly operate on CST values and enable meta-programming at run-time without macros, and a set of dialects that process said CST and encapsulate the problem domain's complexity, like e.g. VID for declarative GUI specification, Draw for raster drawing, Parse for creating other DSLs (think of it as Meta-II on speeds, wearing jet-rollers) and Red/System for low-level programming. All packed into a few megabytes.

These are the principles. Rebol was an interpreted language bootstrapped from C, Red is both compiled and interpreted: runtime is written in Red/System, and bootstrapping compiler with Red/System toolchain are written in Rebol2.

So, Red is written in itself, Red/System and Rebol; Red/System is a dialect of Red; Rebol is 90% compatible with Red (roughly the same data format and language semantics). Let this meta-circularity sink in.

Balbaert's book is IMO a very shallow explanation of the language basics, often plain wrong and technically incorrect, so I cannot in good faith recommend it, especially if you are a newcomer to Rebol family with ambitions to go advanced and master the tool.

WRT pointers toward design-centered discussions around Red/Rebol, consider to join community Gitter channel and read wiki articles. E.g. one of them (shameless plug) goes a bit more into conceptual underpinnings that I described above.

[https://gitter.im/red/red](https://gitter.im/red/red)

[https://github.com/red/red/wiki/%5BDOC%5D-How-Red- works,-a-b...](https://github.com/red/red/wiki/%5BDOC%5D-How-Red- works,-a-brief-explanation)

<comment><USER3> Wow, thanks so much for this answer.

I'm just going to add this link here to another explanation of yours I found around that expands on some of the unique aspects of Red: [https://www.reddit.com/r/redlang/comments/aebxct/contrast_re...](https://www.reddit.com/r/redlang/comments/aebxct/contrast_red_with_racket/) .

Thanks again

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There was a REBOL clone named Sherman [0], written by Joe Marshall. He co- authored REBOL 1.0 and wrote Sherman after he left Rebol Technology. REBOL is such a powerful and simple language, it's a shame it wasn't open sourced earlier.

[0][https://web.archive.org/web/20000303130911/http://www.vsf.ca...](https://web.archive.org/web/20000303130911/http://www.vsf.cape.com/~emergent/sherman.htm)

</comment><comment><USER6> the fundamental problem with Rebol was cultural,

the creator had an ancient/dinosaur mentality where he thought selling the language itself was the business proposition, hence the licensing and limits that ultimately killed the language

</comment><comment><USER7> This makes me really happy.

I've been watching REBOL/RED anticipation, and recently, frustration.

At first they looked amazing. Then it was clear they weren't being adapted. Now I'm just hoping other languages will be inspired by them.

<comment><USER4> Rebol died as a siloed tech and a late-bloomer in the age of open-source, Red is chugging along, but the rub is that everyone appears to be watching and anticipating from afar, while very few of the followers help the project to achieve its goals and gain the adoption that the public seemingly wishes for.

I don't know if this is a historical/cultural problem with the language family itself, or if it's a matter of project's priorities and community incentives. What I do know is that lack of initiative won't bring your dreams to fruition.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Total newbie here: Are there any similarities between Elm and Rebol/Red?

<comment><USER4> None or very few surface-level resemblances. Both projects live on the different planes of abstraction, have different goals, and take different paths in achieving them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> 2 questions:

A) is Rebol 2 open source? If no, why?

B) What are the big gotchas?

<comment><USER10> REBOL 3 has been open sourced, at least to some extent: [http://github.com/carls/R3A110](http://github.com/carls/R3A110)

As usual with this kind of conversion there were things they couldn't open source or otherwise include.

The biggest problem (for me) with R3 is that they decided to redo REBOL 2's incredible compositing GUI environment, but ran out of runway before they could finish. It needed a rework -- people expect more from modern apps. But R2's GUI stuff is just so good, simple and orthoganal. It has completely spoiled me for any other GUI platform. I even wound up implementing a chunk of their GUI SDL in Python so I could bear to work with Wx.

However, it's still a pretty small language and has some really nice capabilities. It's very different from a lot of other languages, but it's also one of the faster ones to develop in. Using R2, I was able to provide and support rich GUI apps for a department at my company that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to help. These weren't typical line-of-business electronic forms either, but graphical editing tools with fullscreen interfaces, database connectivity and heavy parsing.

I really miss using REBOL...

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Is Rebol related to Red and REXX?

<comment><USER12> Red was inspired by REBOL and based on it. Since Carl Sassenrath helped develop the Amiga, I would imagine ARexx could've influenced his design of REBOL.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why are the 2:45 and 4:30 YC interview slots always pre-reserved? - <AUTHOR> I've noticed for a second time when I've gone to reserve a YC interview slot that the 2:45pm and 4:30pm slots are all reserved. Is this simply to add a buffer? Is there some secret? <comment><USER2> So you got accepted mail

<comment><AUTHOR> yes</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Stripe for 10k plus transactions? - <AUTHOR> My next saas product is going to be annual only, b2b with a price of 10k or more a year.
I know Stripe has a theoretical limit above this; however I'm concerned that credit card companies will often trigger alarms for such high charges.
What are the most common ways to collect big, yearly contracts? Paper checks? Stripe? Some sort of bank transfer API? <comment><USER2> > What are the most common ways to collect big, yearly contracts?

Yep, at least in the US, paper checks for some (still!) and wire transfer for others. You send them an invoice, and they send you an (actual, paper) check or make a wire payment to the account number you put in the invoice. Both should be pretty much free, if you have a decent bank (although some banks will charge a few dollars now for incoming domestic wire transfers).

I think for a yearly charge of $10,000+, it's probably worth the pain in the ass factor to invoice the charge, particularly given how much you'll save (about $300 if you use Stripe, more for others, assuming 10,000 charge). Most banks have banking apps now that let you cash checks using the app, so if you really get going with 10,000 checks flowing in by the batch, you can hire some one to help deposit them via app or dropping them by a bank branch. Not a bad problem to have, if it happens.

Just realize that most companies operate on 60 or 90 day terms, and some even more. You can often negotiate for 30-day terms if they really like you/your product and you're firm about it. Just be sure you factor this into your cash flow. And have a process in place for what to do if you don't receive payment by then.

Actually, regarding Stripe, and I may be wrong about this, but I don't think most companies will let you set up a recurrent yearly credit card payment of 10,000 dollars, at least not without going high up the corporate food chain. If that's the case, you'd need to break it into a monthly charge to go the Stripe option.

<comment><USER3> >Just realize that most companies operate on 60 or 90 day terms, and some even more. You can often negotiate for 30-day terms if they really like you/your product and you're firm about it. Just be sure you factor this into your cash flow. And have a process in place for what to do if you don't receive payment by then.

A $10k invoice will often require your point of contact to open an internal Purchase Order (PO) with their finance department. If your contact doesn't make purchases often, it's really easy for them to miscommunicate internal requirements to get you paid on time, causing additional delays on top of your 60/90 terms. I strongly recommend asking your point of contact to connect you with their finance teams to confirm requirements before the software is delivered.

All companies have different requirements to pay vendors, with larger companies having longer, more convoluted internal processes. Clarifying the process to get you paid before you deliver the software pays dividends down the road by minimizing your time collecting late payments, 10x so if you are a solo founder or small team with more important tasks to focus on.

<comment><USER2> Yes, this is an excellent point. And if you run into problems, work directly with Accounts Payable, not through your company contact, if at all possible.

Better yet, do as the parent comment recommends and try to make a contact with Accounts Payable to begin with (although that's not always possible, depends on company).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Yes, paper checks or bank transfers (ACH in the US, or wire transfers you're international). You send an invoice, you get paid 30-90 days later.

Stripe can help you with doing ACH programmatically, if you want to offer an online payment option: [https://support.stripe.com/questions/accepting-ach- payments-...](https://support.stripe.com/questions/accepting-ach-payments- with-stripe)

There are a few reasons transactions of this size are almost never done by credit card:

* Cost ($300 for CC, $0.25-$5 for ACH, free for checks)

* Fraud risk: Someone buys your product with a stolen card or without their boss's permission, they can reverse the charge and you have little to no recourse.

* Chargeback rate risk: You need to have less than 1% of your processing volume be reversed to accept major credit cards. With large transactions, a single reversal can put you over the limit.

* Large tickets, and annual billing, are both red flags when underwriting a business for credit card processing.

A business with very large transactions is risky to take on for the merchant account provider, so you may not be able to find one, may not get reasonable processing rates, may be subject to risk reserves that create cashflow issues, etc.

If you go bankrupt and don't fulfill your contract to 20 clients, and all 20 charge back their payment to you, it's the merchant account provider that's now lost $200K they can't recoup. They don't want that.

If you have a major outage and 10 clients charge back their payments, a processor needs $10 million in good charges to balance that $100K in bad charges from you just to stay below their mandated 1% chargeback rate by Visa/MC. That's too much to ask of many local banks and other MAPs.

</comment><comment><USER5> Digital Checks sound like the way to go for this. Multiple YC companies like cleanly.com stilt.co are already using them. Both for collecting funds as well as disbursing funds. Unlike ACH there are minimal on-boarding issues and UI/UX is much friendlier than ACH. Feel free to try it out at [https://www.checkbook.io](https://www.checkbook.io)

Also there's an API and integrations with Wordpress and Magento. Price is a fixed $1/Check. No percentages!

Disclaimer: I work for checkbook.io</comment>


Colonising Force: An influx of Indian users ruffles an online community - <AUTHOR> http://www.caravanmagazine.in/lede/colonising-force-Quora-indian-users <comment><USER2> Interesting article, but:

> Indian users have been called, among other things, "unbelievably > pretentious" and "narcissistic."

Indian users commenting on online forums -- regardless of their educational status or intelligence -- are no more "unbelievably pretentious" or "narcissistic" than your Average Joe from Random Culture. The key difference is where people lie on the overt-to-covert spectrum ... and Indian communities in general tend to be direct/overt.

I have noticed this attitude among Americans (and Asians, at times) to castigate people from the Indian subcontinent using the above qualifiers, and this to me indicates a general lack of cultural sensitivity and therefore utter absence of empathy than anything.

If I strip off the Victorian-moral-facade/ Dale-Carnegie-pretense/ cultural- maxistic-baloney ... it will never be long before I stumble upon a person of American (or whatever) origin worthy of being described as "unbelievably pretentious" and "narcissistic."

That said, however, the kind of people (from the Indian subcontinent) anyone should be wary of associating with are the likes of Mr. Raghu Venkataraman (referred to in that article; a management consultant at Mu Sigma Inc. as of this writing) who [quote]feel an extra "ego boost" [when seeing] a "Japanese or American person" following him rather than just "another Indian student."[endquote] ... as most intelligent self-aware meritocratic people would do well to avoid getting sucked into their vortex of racial inferiority complex.</comment>


Ask HN: What's a climate change organization you would recommend donating to? - <AUTHOR> I'm looking to contribute to an organization focused on protecting the environment and fighting climate change. I'm looking at 350.org and other organizations online. The problem is that I don't get a real sense of how effective these organizations are. What's a good organization to donate to? <comment><USER2> I don't know if it's what you're looking for but there was a recent comment on another thread that mentioned ProjectWren [1] which is a PBC backed by YCombinator. While researching that came across Terrapass [2] for carbon- offset credits. While checking out the ProjectWren site discovered that apparently there are audit/verification companies that certify some of these projects [3,4] so they might act as a charity-watch type organization for climate change projects. Might have to cross reference, and there seems to always be at least some degree of trust that the money is being used as intended. I have no affiliation with any of these besides surfing the internet but I'm thinking about using ProjectWren specifically because of their affiliation with YCombinator, who again I have no personal relationship with as a company but I trust that at least the organization exists and does what they are saying and not fraudulent.

[1] [https://projectwren.com/](https://projectwren.com/) [2] [https://www.terrapass.com/](https://www.terrapass.com/) [3] [https://verra.org/](https://verra.org/) [4] [https://www.goldstandard.org/](https://www.goldstandard.org/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Organisations run on a charitable basis in this space on balance tend to be less transparent on impact than organisations run as businesses, which are better focused on effectively managing and reporting impact[1].

Oikocredit is probably my favourite and investing in climate-smart agriculture at the moment. They should also give you your money back.

One thing to bear in mind is that adaptation at this point is as important as mitigation.

[1]The reason being that on balance they have more resources available for management.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is helpful. I agree about transparency in impact. I also understand that it is often difficult to measure that impact quantitatively when you are a charity. Business is easier because $ is easily quantifiable. I'm not so interested in getting my money back. I just want some reasonable assurance that it's going to something "effective".

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Citizen's Climate Lobby (CCL) does non-partisan lobbying for carbon fee and dividend in the USA, Canada and the EU. They lobby on the local and federal level, getting endorsements, tabling, getting bills introduced and writing articles and letters to newspapers. A list of CCL accomplishments is here: [https://citizensclimatelobby.org/about- ccl/accomplishments/](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/about- ccl/accomplishments/)

</comment><comment><USER5> If you want to donate to something with concrete results then try these guys, everyday they free Seals in Namibia from ocean garbage and film it [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg8VTeeN4BglqmI1_CBlABg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg8VTeeN4BglqmI1_CBlABg) you can even go there and help them [https://gogetfunding.com/Seal/](https://gogetfunding.com/Seal/) but money is what all these small orgs need to be sustainable

</comment><comment><USER6> Sunrise Movement

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you describe how Sunrise Movement is effective in helping to mitigate climate change? (I looked at their website but I'm interested in quantitative data.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why not invest that money in a Prius instead? Or offer to replace someone's diesel truck with a Prius?

</comment><comment><USER8> Check [https://charitynavigator.org](https://charitynavigator.org)

<comment><AUTHOR> I saw this as well as [https://www.charitywatch.org/](https://www.charitywatch.org/). Their analysis is somewhat opaque. It doesn't tell me how effective they are, just how efficient they are.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Natural Resources Defense Council(NRDC)

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you talk about why NRDC is a good choice?</comment></comment>