When You Are Depressed, Make Something - <AUTHOR> https://byrslf.co/when-you-are-depressed-make-something-49467edd1933#.yg26duthw <comment><USER4> When you are depressed, see if there's a serious problem in your life that is causing you to be depressed and devote as much time and energy as you can muster towards exploring solutions to that problem, even if they entail dramatic life-changing decisions, because that's the kind of problem we're dealing with here.

Examples of such problems: you hate your graduate program. You have no friends in your city and no idea where to look. You are unattractive and wish you weren't. You are skeptical of your faith. You have no activities or hobbies that involve other people and wish you did. You are not as good at software engineering as you want to be. Your job is hell. You fake a character in social situations that makes you hate yourself. You are impotent at facing injustice that you perceive in the world. You are uninspired by the prospects of the career or community available to you. Any of the above + you drink, do drugs, or play video games to avoid dealing with it. * Another: your career is pointless or selfish

Short term solutions like exercise, making friends, or talking to people, and making something will only fix the depression if they happen to address the actual problem - which there's a good chance they do. And of course, the whole situation can spiral out of control and compromise your ability to do something about it, in which case professional help + drugs can make all the difference.

<comment><USER5> I completely disagree with you.

I believe you are describing solutions to problems that can make someone sad or frustrated, which is a fine thing. I'm all about being real about your life situation and doing something about it.

However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. I had it when I had arguably one of the coolest jobs in my life up until that point. I treated it with medication, got out of the slump, and applied techniques to stave it away.

Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression. Regular exercise keeps up your serotonin and endorphin levels, as well as helps you maintain a healthy body-image. Interacting with people, also increases serotonin and endorphin levels, and ensures you don't feel lonely. Engaging creatively keeps your brain active and, you guessed it, increases serotonin and endorphin levels, as well as distracts from the "why do I bother" feeling, aka, gives you a "reason."

One of the most important lessons I ever learned when I had a shit job. I kept thinking "if I just get a better job, then I'll be happy." Then I realized how much it would suck if my internal happiness depended totally upon externalities - who's to say a good job is the "best" job? If I adopt that mindset I'll always be chasing the carrot on the stick. The important thing is to do what is necessary to be happy no matter what, and _then_ focus on the externalities (the "problems" you describe).

<comment><USER6> >Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that can cause depression

What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors. If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a plausible cure for your depression.

<comment><USER7> To do that, you actually have to both be actually able to find and take a different job plus have the clarity to know that such a thing will improve your situation.

And with depression (or anxiety), this isn't so easy. It gets difficult to see opportunities and easier to blame yourself, thinking, "I'm lucky to have this crappy job and that they put up with me". It can make your job seem crappy, even when it isn't.

I get to see the way the chemicals affect my brain once a month. Once a month, I think I'm going to lose my job. That people dislike me. That people are suddenly treating me harshly and I must have done something wrong. I consider changing jobs.

This is like this even when I enjoy my work and actually like the folks I'm surrounded with. It doesn't stop with work, but is a handy example.

I likely should be on anti-depressants half the month - if you've not figured it out, I'm female and this is entirely hormone-related. Instead, I've adjusted life. Once I realize what is going on, I can relax some on the temporary nature of it all. Sometimes it works better than others.

The thing is when depression hits, for me, it is much like this. All the freaking time. Work becomes a relief from home, home becomes a relief from work, sleep a relief from it all. I literally don't have the capacity to sort out which things in life to change or what to do next. I get stuck.

This is why it is a long-term preventative measure. Gotta catch this stuff before the darkness sets in and messes with your sensors.

<comment><USER5> >before the darkness sets in and messes with your sensors

I like this language, "messes with your sensors." Depression is a disease within the brain, and naturally it's difficult to observe a system from within that system - _especially_ when those observational tools are affected by the system itself.

So it's really hard to know you have depression and take the steps to treat it, when you have depression.

<comment><USER8> It is a marvelously true expression. _Whatever_ the cause, a real black-dog depression robs a person of all sense of effective agency. The leg is broken and needs a cast, and for many the drugs do work (personal experience). But then the person needs to learn to walk again. It may be a disease (there is a genetic component) but we don't know whether the observed neurotransmitter problems are cause or effect.

Freud said that the purpose of therapy was to replace neurotic misery with ordinary human unhappiness. Some Californians find that a bit of a downer, but it's true, and we can do something about unhappiness.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The problem with trying to create something is once you begin to work hard at it, you realize that you're not very good and others have done it far better than you. I have notice this a lot with math.I will work on a problem and then a Google search later reveals that the problem is not only completely solved but in a way that is far better than I could have ever conceived. Another problem is when you run out of ideas or if the creative endeavor doesn't produce sufficient results. Creativity and execution is really hard, that I'll grant.

<comment><USER10> Then _deliberately_ set your standards low. I used to have a "bad art night" where I'd create something, no matter how crappy, just to say I'd done it.

Perfect is the enemy of good; good is the enemy of good enough.

<comment><USER11> This is why I've enjoyed my time taking improv classes. I'm with a group of other complete beginners and failure is encouraged. It has a beginning and end, and whatever happens will only happen once ever. I go home with a sense of completion and accomplishment, but I don't have the feeling of having to show anyone else for validation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The first half of the article has a lot of wisdom.

The second half reminds me of well meaning people who make things worse by trying to help. "Just (go jogging, do something creative drink vegetable shakes)"

I would if I could damn it! lol

<comment><USER13> There is a very large difference between clinical depression and situational depression. The ideas and suggestions of those who have suffered from situational depression are often not very helpful for those who suffer from clinical depression. I think this article is clearly about situational depression, but I don't think people often know there is a difference.

<comment><USER14> I think the article doesn't know the difference...

<comment><USER15> The article thinks it knows the difference (by trying to distinguish depression from ordinary "sadness"), but then seems to fail its own test.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> As someone who has periodic depressive episodes, if you're capable of leaving the house to go to a DJ class, you're probably already over the worst of it.

"Just go do x" sort of has a "Get off the couch" pre-requisite that needs to be satisfied.

<comment><USER17> There are days I can't even leave my bedroom.

<comment><USER18> Try meditating. My favorite way to meditate is outside sitting up, but on the days were I struggle to even get of bed I'll start meditating right there and try and work my way to the floor and then sitting up. It's not about doing it right, well, in certain positions or any. Start trying to bring your attention to your breath until you feel like you can work your way out of bed to the floor and then upright.

I've also found bike riding can be modified in a similar way. Throw on a hoodie even if its hot out. This allows you to put your head down and your hood up and generally ignore the world. Even when its hot out, its normal enough to wear a hoodie to work up a sweat". Bike riding also works at low enough speeds you can do it in a very apathetic manner(I find it easier than walking.) You don't have to work hard, just getting a little motion starts blood-flow and can provide a small lift. For me its about finding the easiest, simplest, way to provide some sort of lift to start the day and then hopefully you can snowball it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I feel like what happened to the author epitomizes the experience of a generation that graduated in the year or two right before the crash of 2008. The first round of layoffs obviously disproportionately effected people that were just starting off their careers at that time (of course other groups were disproportionately hit hard as well). It happened to me being about a year into my career as I was still feeling my way around. It happened to many of my friends as well, and was especially hard on the group of folks that didn't have the fortune to have gone into the IT field. And once you are out of work for a year or two when the recovery started happening, the resume's of people fresh out of college look more attractive than the out of work 'lazy millennial' which only compounded the problem. Having facebook made it easier to kind of see what was going on with the larger crowd of acquaintances that I maybe would not have explicitly kept track of and though its hard to compare my experience against other cohorts I feel like depression and alcoholism are more of a problem for the group I am describing than others.

In my case I feel lucky for the experience, I was only out of work for a few months and learned that you should never trust the company you are working for beyond the next paycheck. Never work on weekends with the promises you will be 'paid back' etc. You are ultimately working for yourself regardless if you are salaried or contract.

<comment><USER20> > I feel like what happened to the author epitomizes the experience of a > generation that graduated in the year or two right before the crash of 2008.

Same could be said for many who were laid off in the crash of 2000/2001\. I was one, and in many respects I'm still recovering from it. I'm not entirely happy with how my career has gone since then, but I like where I live enough that I'm not willing to change that, and I realize the tradeoffs.

Passion for your job is not necessarily bad; passion for your career is better, and passion for the work itself is even better, but there are things beyond work, and perspective is a powerful thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> A lot of people have pointed out how real depression makes it difficult to do the very things that would help alleviate it. In some cases, medication can be the crucial tool that helps you escape this cycle.

At the same time, I have mixed feelings about psychiatry. The field has done a lot of good, but I also can't help but feel that modern antidepressants are seriously lacking. They help some people, but they don't help everyone and can take weeks or months to work; they can also backfire and make some people suicidal. Prior to the 1950s, the common antidepressants were opiates and amphetamines. These fell out of favor due to their addictive properties, but in a way their addictiveness comes from how effective they are at rapidly alleviating depression. If you found a pill that made you happy within an hour, it's easy to see why you would want to keep taking it (and why you might want to take more of it than you need).

It can be very difficult to create an antidepressant that makes you feel better without also having addictive qualities. I often wonder if stigmatizing opiates and amphetamines -- and replacing them with MAOIs, tricyclics, and SSRI/SNRIs -- was a mistake. I'm not saying that they should be first-line treatments, but it seems a little weird that we would rather give people ECT (induced seizures) than psychoactive chemicals that reliably and rapidly alleviate dysphoria.

I've personally found Kratom (a plant with opioid alkaloids) to be very effective at relieving depression and anxiety, and of course states have already moved to ban it. Sometimes it feels like all the useful drugs are illegal, and we're left with these half-assed pharmaceuticals that have a low potential for abuse precisely because they don't do anything useful.

Again, I think psychiatry has done a lot of good, and many medications _do_ help people. But desperate individuals are still committing suicide. We need to do better.

<comment><USER22> A bit of a digression, but possibly a useful one for anybody wondering if amphetamines or other drugs might be an easy panacea for depression. The answer may well be "yes, and then very much no."

I had my first (and so far only) ecstasy pill a year or so ago, and it was wonderful - lit my brain on fire, caused me to experience the best music festival I've ever been to, and gave me the kind of intense connection with my friends I'd been missing from years of crippling depression. The following week was hell, and caused slight but permanent damage to my family relationships. It took a couple more weeks to recover to even my low standard of 'normal'.

It was only later that I learned that ecstasy, amphetamines, LSD, and basically anything that acts on the seratonin system can cause severe depression lasting a week or more - and if you've already got depression, that can get _really_ bad.

It's worth being careful with these things.

On the other hand - a similar experiment a couple of months later with a small dose of synthetic psilocybin yielded a week of the best mood I've been in for years, with no obvious side effects.

I'd love to see more research on these things. I'm probably not going to do much more research on it using my own brain ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> The number of times I have that I felt I could do better - and then I start working on it, get 80% done, but then I struggle with the next 20% - and then almost burnout and give up and feel depressed because I'll never be able to do anything in life, is just insane.

Then I start wondering - what is all of this for? and what's the entire point of even living?

Talking to people does not help either (as it is, I'm not very social and then to add to that, most friends would have a general response along the lines of "oh wow...look at you and your problems", talking to parents is worse - they'll tell me to pray and that's how life is - which I refuse to accept).

Distractions are the only thing that has helped me yet - I distract myself with almost anything I can find - games, cars, tv shows, movies - just so I don't think of anything else.

I write this because, as the author mentions "Make something" \- the will to make something disappears. Which is why distractions help.

<comment><USER24> Why does living have to have a point?

I generally agree with your sentiment. Anything I do seems to fall so far short of my expectations that it makes me depressed.

My mom used to say "when you reach for the moon, at least you'll climb a tree" but to me the image of man on a tree, reaching out to the moon fills me with hopelessness instead of inspiration.

<comment><USER25> You're right it'd be sad. But if you climb a tree, you're not gonna reach out to the moon; you're going to be a little out of breath from climbing, and notice your lungs. You'll have put your arms and legs to use. You'll notice something around the tree you didn't. And maybe then you'll do something else.

It's not actually about reaching the moon, but (I think) just doing _something_. Because purpose and meaning can also come _after_ doing something which previously had no apparent meaning.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Very good front half. The second half ruffled my feathers with conflating lifting other people's work via sampling and tossing flourishes in and suddenly feeling like an authority on creativity. I say this as both a 100% from scratch producer and frequent unsanctioned remixer of other people's work. Glad it's therapeutic for him, genuinely so.

He's wrong though, not every human is "innately creative" in the sense that there's an artist, singer, dancer, drummer, painter, sculptor, or didgeridoo maestro hiding somewhere inside each of us if we only look. That's not fair. Some people will go looking and find disappointment, much in the way I think for some reason I'll never enjoy Calculus II or have much of an aptitude for it. I just think false hope can lead to, eh, other depressive tailspins.

<comment><USER10> I really think people do themselves a disservice by feeling that everything they do has to meet some imaginary bar.

I'm a _terrible_ flute player. I go so long between practices that I sometimes forget where my fingers go, but the simple joy in making notes with a wind instrument makes me smile me every time. The "bar" is set at "just create tunes" not "be a classical virtuoso."

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Everyone is different, so I'm not going to knock the author for his views.

What I found over the years is that having a routine helps ward off depression, and by definition almost making something isn't a routine it's a one time event.

I would suggest something much simpler. Walking. Take as many steps as you can every day. Log the results, but really you just want to do something to get you moving so the results don't matter, I just like to compete against myself and walking is something I can do just about any day.

Eventually you will feel like doing something other than walking, but there may be weeks or months or you don't -- and that's OK too.

The point is just not to lie around letting the self-destructive thoughts spiral and lock you in that place you don't want to be. But even when you're there, you can still put one foot in front of the other...

</comment><comment> rm_-rf_slash Start with a daily journal. Write down the stuff you did and the thoughts you had. Write down the things you want to get done tomorrow in the same journal and cross them off if you accomplish them.

This way every day of your life will have significance. Even if the day was dreary, mundane, sad, or even horrible, recording the memory records the significance _because you lived it._

Journaling didn't cure me of depression, but it helped me build a ladder out of my pit of despair.

<comment><USER28> +1 to this. I've found this is incredibly helpful in other facets of life - for me, I like to know what I was thinking roughly last january

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I have about 100 things that are 5% finished. I would start a neat project and have no willpower to take it anywhere. It was a depression feedback loop.

I discovered I was depressed because I felt like any time I wasn't actively being "productive", I was wasting my life. I would come home from a long day of engineering to jump into more engineering.

Over the holidays I vowed, as an experiment, to just do nothing "productive". Maybe if I play video games and watch Netflix and be with my wife more, I'd end up being more productive in the long run.

These past 3 weeks have been my happiest in years.

The part I'm still trying to figure out is how to convince myself of this truth the next time I feel like leveling my Night Elf while watching Suits with my wife is a waste of time that I could be using to make something really cool.

</comment><comment><USER30> When you are depressed, please try seeing a professional if you have the time/money/insurance coverage.

We've made a condition that is largely out of your control a taboo and I don't know why. It's ok to want to be functional, and people can help without pretending like your depression/any other condition isn't real.

<comment><USER15> "We've made a condition that is largely out of your control a taboo and I don't know why."

The reason "why" is (I suspect) because the people who don't understand depression think that it's _not_ out of one's control. Thus, since they don't experience the effects of depression, they insist that people with depression will be magically cured if they just tried to be happy.

This approach to curing depression - much like trying to fix a severed limb by pretending it's still there - is almost always destined to fail. When it does inevitably fail, the non-depressed people - still failing to understand depression - resort to blaming the depressed people for being depressed.

It's very unsurprising, after all, much like how it's unsurprising for a physically-healthy person to take for granted the ability to use stairs, or how it's very unsurprising for right-handed UX designers to assume that users are right-handed (I'm looking at all y'all Android designers...), or how it's very unsurprising for developers to brush aside bugs with their software because it "works fine on my machine, so you're obviously just doing it wrong; RTFM".

No, I _already_ Read The Fucking Manual™; you just suck at comprehending that your exact situation is not everyone else's.

<comment><USER30> > how it's unsurprising for a physically-healthy person to take for granted > the ability to use stairs

I broke my arm a year ago and I was surprised to see how much rote behavior I relied on using my left hand for! It was pretty enlightening and I try to think about what I take for granted from time to time.

<comment><USER15> I had a similar experience when I tore my ACL; I still don't _really_ feel comfortable going down stairs (up is fine for some reason) even after a very successful surgery.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Friends have worked for me[1]. I've tried travelling, running, working, drinking, innumerable distractions. But having friends who can spot when I'm falling and reach out, because I'll never ask for their help, has been invaluable.

[1] [http://hybridlogic.co.uk/2015/11/the- well/](http://hybridlogic.co.uk/2015/11/the-well/)

<comment><USER32> You're a lucky human

<comment><USER31> I tell myself that every time. Without them I would be lost, so I try and make it up to them in the periods I can.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I agree with this 100%. I find though, that the crippling part of the worst bouts of depression can be the inability to get up and make something. The impetus to create - usually strong - disappears.

<comment> kris-s My strategy in those situations is to get out my phone, set a timer and say: "I'm going to work on x for five minutes, if I still feel crappy after five minutes I'll stop." That mental bargaining is bizarre in that I know its irrational but it always works, five minutes is enough for me to get enough 'creative inertia'.

Making things isn't a panacea for me, when I'm done working I'll still sometimes feel less than great, but it always helps.

<comment><USER34> I've had a similar experience in that getting started is a large barrier. I'd like to see an article that bridges the gap between saying, "just do it," and the understanding that someone who is depressed does not want to do anything.

I respond best to very specific instructions that don't require choices on my behalf. For example, "do something active," won't move me. Instead I need, "put on running shoes, go outside, run around the house three times." It's a silly example, but the point is that I won't "do something active" but I will "put on running shoes, ...".

<comment> vertex-four I can fully understand that - I occasionally wind up asking other people to tell me to do specific small things and it can help a lot with just getting through the day.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> > _The whole world deserves to experience what it feels like to be in your > present moment._

I'm glad the author found something that helped him through depression. Unfortunately this is not a silver bullet. It won't work for everyone, or even every time depression hits.

There are many different activities you can try to help battle depression, and they are definitely helpful, and creating things is one of them. But they'll all fail without a key ingredient: realizing that you have to just do whatever you have to do, simply because it's the right thing to do, regardless of your emotions, or how intense they are, or lack of them.

If you live by that philosophy, you'll find yourself doing all the right things, and for all the right reasons, and you may not ever get out of depression, but it won't be crippling anymore.

A major difficulty with carrying this out as a person in tech though is that we're inherently a little more existential and philosophical than others because of the nature of programming being very intertwined with philosophy, and we get paid more generally which means we usually have more time to think too. Combine these with modern philosophy, and you usually have programmers who see no real value in life other than to enjoy it and have a good time (which explains why we love alcohol and sugary drinks like Red Bull so much), and when that good feeling runs out, life feels pointless and empty for us, because we can't find any motivation.

That also explains why there's a steady stream of philosophical and motivational posts on HN's front page. Because usually that good feeling that programming gives you doesn't last forever, so we try to look for explanations, or we try to look for other motivators. It also explains why we keep coming back to exciting topics on here, like bitcoin and the newest programming languages or tutorials on Haskell monads (which nobody can ever understand even though we know we should, so the closer we think we get, the more excited we are).

I don't have numbers on how many programmers are turning to religion, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was growing too, because we're looking for some motivation to keep us moving forward after the excitement runs out (and it always does, and never lasts very long).

<comment><USER21> > realizing that you have to just do whatever you have to do, simply because > it's the right thing to do, regardless of your emotions, or how intense they > are, or lack of them.

Right, but how do you figure out what the "right thing to do" is? Especially if you ignore emotional response as a guide?

<comment><USER35> Well that's the point of philosophy, isn't it? To figure out what we're supposed to do. For some people, just living life going through the motions is enough, and they never stop and ask this question. Other people keep bouncing from philosophy to philosophy, or religion to religion, looking for something that fits. Some of those people find something that works, and stick with it. And of course others just kill themselves because they never can figure out an answer that satisfies them, so life seems infinitely meaningless and they see no reason to keep going.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> To me, this comes across equivalently to "If you're depressed, start being happy and productive". It ain't like there's an on/off switch in my brain labelled "start being a productive member of society".

I'm not sure if I'd call what I experience "depression" (a doubt that makes me suspect it might very well be actual depression, but I know better than to pull a Freud and try a self-diagnosis), but whatever it is, it boils down to a finite state machine where the only transitions are "feel worthless for being unproductive" and "be unproductive because you're worthless". There ain't any breaking out of that sort of loop, at least not easily.

</comment><comment><USER36> (Especially!) if your government doesn't give you access to a therapist or if you don't want to suffer side-effects due to anti-depressants, then do :

1\. Mindful meditation [free] -> Daily practice (30+ minutes)

John Kabat-Zinn [0] masters the link between science and meditation and has published very valuable books (including guided/audio meditation exercises) [1]. There are a couple of scientific studies which prove effectiveness [2] [3].

2\. LSD [$5-10/dose + $25/multi-use test kit] -> One-time experience (every 6 months max.)

LSD however requires one to literally read/understand/know everything about the substance before applying it (minimum literature: "The psychedelic explorer's guide" by Fadiman). Also, order a test kit and test before you ingest. Certain "edge cases"/people should not try it and educating yourself about everything will allow you to decide if it's a good idea in your case or not. In addition, you may be able to access your spiritual dimension, which increases quality of life even further (it is less immediate with meditation).

You may combine micro-dosing LSD with meditation for accessing the meditative state easier (it's quite a challenge for depressed people).

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat- Zinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn)

[1] [https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through...](https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through_Depression_- _Guided_Meditation_Practices)

[2] [http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks- to...](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better- brain)

[3] [http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain- neuros...](http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain-neuroscience)

<comment><USER37> There is good reason to be cautious with meditation while depressed. Meditation helps people get some distance from their emotional reactions - <USER2> depressed people are often already _unhealthily_ dissociated from their emotional state, and mediation may exacerbate that rather than repair it.

I'm with you on the LSD thing, though.

<comment><USER36> True.

Meditation becomes rather unrealistic once your depression is past the "moderate" level and has become "clinic" (strong), in which case either anti- depressants (mostly with side-effects) or a well researched and full-blown LSD experience can "jumpstart" your brain again (and therewith enable you to start practicing meditation which then helps you avoid falling back into strong depression).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> IME, it's hard to do anything when you're depressed. When I was seriously depressed, I couldn't write code :(

Its my favorite hobby, I love creating things, but I often couldn't bring myself to open the text editor or even open my laptop. When I did, I was constantly distracted.

Honestly, I still love to code but I'm yet to find the same gusto even still, when I'm markedly better but not feeling as secure as I was before.

I don't know how writers and other creatives can pull it off when they're depressed, I know I'm much better at it when I'm feeling stable.

Ask HN: how have ya'll delt with depression, other than psychoactive drugs?

<comment><USER38> For me, I trick my brain with indirection.

When I'm just sitting around saying "am I happy yet?", I never am. It just reinforces the depression by reminding me of the challenges. Happiness, in my experience, is the sort of thing that I can't usually produce on demand.

But I _can_ set yourself up for success. I ask myself what tends to make me happy, and then I make the hard decision to legitimately engage with it: I challenge myself to be swept up in the moment, even though it _really_ seems like I won't be.

For example, I generally find happiness by making progress on the things I'm invested in. But, even though I _am_ invested in being happy, I can't just dive into coding and expect it to work, because coding isn't actually what makes me happy: coding helps me accomplish things I care about, and _that_ makes me happy.

So, first, I find a self-contained goal, like "I'm gonna work on this really cool project _because_ it's really cool", or "I'm going to make progress in this video game _because_ it challenges me to think in new ways". Fulfilling this goal for its own sake, because I'm legitimately invested in it, is what makes me happy. In order to succeed at happiness, I carefully choose a different target, and focus on it instead.

That's what's been working for me recently, anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> When I'm feeling depressed, the last thing I want to do is jump up, and start working on something. This sounds like advice written by someone who has never been depressed. Like a skinny dude, telling a fat guy to stop eating.

</comment><comment><USER40> Ooof. Like many of the previous comments, this "solve depression with creativity" isn't for all.

I'm recovering from 2 years of clinical depression, and lemme tell you, trying to write songs while you doubt every single goddamned thought, bone, and instinct in you is a _bad_ idea.

Creativity requires a modicum of self-trust and curiosity. Major depression is so mentally engulfing that there's no room for those two things.

</comment><comment><USER41> Actually, when you are depressed you should seek some help. First.

Then we can talk.

<comment><USER42> As someone who was in OP's shoes literally, ( my 1st job was a 4 month contract with an option to extend, which never happened) you tend to shut out people. It just happens. I can't explain it why but it does. I consider myself as a social person who can't live without friends, but i ended up just sitting in my room. When i graduated and while i was working i could never imagine me not going to gym but guess what, i hated going to gym. Heck i stopped going to gym even though i was sitting at home all day. I can't explain why it happens but it does.

<comment><USER43> One of the core symptoms/phenomena of major depression is anhedonia - <USER3> inability to experience pleasure.

It's very difficult to _imagine_ what that would be like - until _you_ experience it. Hope you'll seek out some effective help. It's hard to dig out all by oneself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> So I texted this link to my mom and told her to read the comments, she's struggled with depression her whole life, as have I, but thought her experience and response might be insightful or interesting to some: (She's 60, single, of Christian faith, and just got back from a year in Kenya/Madagascar a few months ago. Last year, she quit her stressful job as CFO of a construction company in Cleveland, Ohio and moved to Nirobi to volunteer in an orphanage. After about 7 months the foundation who runs the project heard of her accounting experience, and offered her a volunteer position setting up the financial system for a new clinic in Madagascar being built by the Freedom from Fistula foundation, which she took. She's back in Cleveland now, but still remotely assisting in the payroll and accounting as they transition to local Madagascar permanent employees handling the finances. She just started a new position with a different local Cleveland construction company as she plans/saves for retirement. Her new position is much less stressful, according to her mainly due to the respect and treatment from the owner which she was not afforded from her previous employer)

Her response: [Wow. I didn't read the article either but the comments are really insightful. There is no "right" answer for everyone, but it's reassuring to read that people who are susceptible to depression can acknowledge it, find ways to fight it, and live well in spite of it. I think that's much healthier than looking for a 'cure'. I believe that I will always be the type of person who struggles with depression, but over the years God has given me the coping skills to have a full and joyful life as who He created me to be, not who other people think I should be. Does that make sense?]

Note that I am not advocating nor denouncing a faith based approach here, but as many here have recommended, I think openness to complete lifestyle changes is something to seriously consider for those struggling.

As always, thanks for keeping these discussions civil, insightful and constructive!

</comment><comment><USER45> Fascinating how depression is one of the hottest topics in this community. Are hackers particularly vulnerable to it? Or just particularly aware? Or is it simply one of the next big issues entering the public mind?

<comment><USER43> It touches each of us or someone near us:

"In 2015, an estimated 16.1 million adults aged 18 or older in the United States had at least one major depressive episode in the past year. ...6.7% of U.S. adults."

[https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-...](https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major- depression-among-adults.shtml)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I have decades of experience with depression. Two insights have helped greatly. One was noticing how I'm typically either on an upward emotional spiral, or a downward emotional spiral. Maybe that's because I'm bipolar. Anyway, as the article argues, I've found that it helps to make things. Or more generally, to accomplish things. That's often enough to put me back on an upward spiral.

In saying "accomplish things", I'm not focusing on the issue(s)/problem(s)/etc that triggered the downward spiral. Those are often too difficult. Rather, I find it useful to accomplish something that's easy, and enjoyable. Sometimes that does involve making something, manually. Cooking. Repairing stuff. Whatever.

The other insight is that emotions reflect what I'm thinking about. Part of a downward spiral is thinking about what went wrong, how I screwed up, etc. And also, thinking about all the previous times I've failed, what's wrong with me, and how it's hopeless.

So I've trained myself to notice when I'm doing that. And now, that awareness always brings a smile to my face. Because it's funny how someone would get into such a stupid loop. Often there are epithets that come with that, classics involving Jesus, chain-link fences, and razor wire ;)

</comment><comment><USER47> next post in series:

When You Break Your Leg, Walk It Off

</comment><comment><USER48> I'd like to encourage anyone feeling depressed to take a good, hard look at their diet and to consider the possibility that they lack some essential nutrients.

I'm not saying that a poor diet or lack of nutrients will necessarily be the only or even the main cause of depression, but these factors could have an impact (sometimes a profound impact) on the severity or frequency of depression.

For most of my life I've had a pretty poor diet, and while I knew diet could affect one's mood, I really didn't realize how profound an effect it could have until poor health recently forced me to make drastic changes in my diet and to consider and study the potential effects of diet on mental and physical health.

What I learned was that many, many nutrient deficiencies could have very severe consequences on one's mental (not to mention physical) health -- including depression, dementia, and even death. Symptoms of a nutrient deficiency are not always obvious, and some of them take a long time to manifest -- so long that they kind of sneak up on you and you could almost feel like what you're experiencing is "normal" or just the way you are (ie. depressed, just because you have a negative outlook on life).

Once I improved my diet and started taking supplements for essential nutrients which my diet still lacked, I felt so much better, and have had much more energy than I'm used to, don't need as much sleep, and my mood and motivation have dramatically improved.

I now firmly believe that many people who suffer mental issues, including depression, may be malnourished or nutritionally deficient in some way. Taking one's diet seriously, reading up on it, and improving it could really change your life.

</comment><comment><USER49> There should be some distinction made between "I'm sad" and "I'm clinically depressed".

I've had first hand experience where making something or doing something makes me less sad. I've never been clinically depressed and those who are sometimes can't get out of bed. Making something might not be solution for someone who is clinically depressed.

</comment><comment><USER50> I'm not sure whether if he experienced a true depression but this article doesn't give any answers. Plus, it can be pretty harmful for those who don't have any 'loved ones'. I'm a depressed student who don't have any friends nor family to talk with. This article make me think I don't have any chances. Anyway, it could help some.

</comment><comment><USER51> While I believe depression has biological contributors, it's amazing how much learning techniques to combat the mental spiral can do to help avoid depression, along with the "maintenance" of proper sleep, food, and exercise. It seems strange that learning "thinking techniques" can have such an impact on "chemical imbalance," but in my experience, anyway, practicing these techniques works better than drugs do for affecting chemically-connected depression, though that may strike you as controversial. Two things that have been helpful to me are Dr. David Burns's book Feeling Good ([https://feelinggood.com/books/](https://feelinggood.com/books/)) and Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication methods: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHVrkdzr8A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHVrkdzr8A).

</comment><comment><USER52> The accuracy of this struck a chord; when I was at my lowest point during depression one of the worst symptoms was that I no longer enjoyed what I thought I liked (making things, in my case particularly with tech).

What helped me slowly find my way out of that place was forcing myself to do those things regardless of whether I was perceiving enjoyment anymore + taking on a new hobby (coincidentally music). It took a lot of time but the things that made me enjoy it in the first place started to become more clear and I got over that slump, with a new interest to show for it.

The depression certainly hasn't disappeared completely but the fear of losing passion for certain things is more manageable given that I've gotten it back before. Not to minimize the negative impact of depression but the understanding of that fear has often pushed me harder towards progress than I would have pushed myself under normal circumstances.

Might not be the standard experience but this post still this resonated with me.

</comment><comment><USER53> Depression is nature and unescapable, you just have to bare it and build endurance to lower the threshold of the stimulus that trigger it. It needs to be running simultaneously with your other natural brain activities.

In 2011, I found a job of my dreams, but it ended in 2012, since then I began to took jobs that I'm not comfortable and I do not like just to provide for my family, it was hard and sad, and it lasted from 2012 to 2016. Now I'm happy I have a new job that I'm very comfortable with.

Depression is not new to me, I've experienced it since childhood, teenage period and throughout college. There's no OFF switch for it, the only way to turn it off is build strength and endurance for it, sooner or later it it will attack again, but it would be too weak to affect you.

<comment><USER54> This.

A huge part of the problem is we think we need to be happy/succesfull/whatever and any discomfort/pain is a existential problem.

It's not. It's life. It's got ups and downs. Don't let the downs get you too down[ _]. Find joy when you can.

[_] This doesn't mean you have to just "be happy". But rather, recognize there is a problem and actively try to get help so next time you are more resilient.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Here's a popular track on his prolific SoundCloud account: [https://soundcloud.com/treblesandblues/clear-skies- ahead](https://soundcloud.com/treblesandblues/clear-skies-ahead)

</comment><comment><USER56> When you're depressed find something you are truly enjoying. Sometimes it can be a hobby like it was in the author's case. Depression is often caused by forcing ourselves into doing something that we don't like. Up to the point where we start forgetting what we like at all. Question "what do I like?" stops having not just clear answer -- any answer at all! That's why strong and stubborn people can be more susceptible to depression -- they can be exceptionally good at doing something they don't enjoy. If you find yourself depressed -- find something that you enjoy. Honestly, truly and deeply.

</comment><comment><USER57> One of the things that helped me was teaching myself a new skill. Finishing a Udemy course and knowing that I have a new (and marketable) skill is a great feeling that encourages me to find projects to apply it towards.

</comment><comment><USER58> When you are depressed

1\. talk to people who care about you - face to face at every meal if possible but at least at every lunch if not. Be around other people and interact with them. Join communities where performance is not needed but people are thankful if you just show up.

2\. do small tiny things. Eg: buy and cook eggs and eat them, clean your apartment. As you do slightly bigger things, do things for other people. Send $10 to a charity online or to a watsi patient.

Its a constant struggle and its hard as hell. But small tiny steps and support from others help a lot.

<comment><USER59> Two things I've noticed that are surprisingly small but significant:

\- leaving your home \- talk to people

They switch your mind off some inner loop. As an ex loner that loop was my favorite mode, but abused you end up grumpy, acid, somehow depressed.

Just being on the move changes that. And talking to people even short polite chit chat will feed your brain with .. I don't know .. negative entropy ? external energy that refull your mind in more efficient ways that most your lonely activities, even those you love (music, painting, reading, programming).

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> This seems like good advice, but it's based on one example. If you want depression advice from a psychiatrist who's reviewed the academic literature on depression, try Things That Sometimes Help If You Have Depression from Slate Star Codex: [http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that- sometimes-h...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes- help-if-youre-depressed/)

</comment><comment><USER61> I wonder how much depression is mislabeled. When you are sad, it's a natural state. It's not something that you're supposed to medicate. What you need is healthy human relationships and a sense of meaning and importance.

I see a strong incentive to mislabel sadness as depression, as it releases the society and the individuals living in that society from the responsibility of actually taking care of people who aren't doing so well socially.

</comment><comment><USER62> When you are depressed seek HELP. Help from people qualified to provide it first. None of the internet advice, friends, family etc. are alternative to this HELP.

</comment><comment><USER63> Bring nature to your own place, Thats what helps me. I do gardening to help myself.

Just seeing them growing everyday, Give me some kinda of hope and makes me feel i'm not alone.

Its so easy to start with and so rewarding, Just get some pots and soil and start planting your own vegetable or flowers! I promise you'll be happiest person on earth when your chilli fruits!

You can try to make your own coffee/tobacco or _medicinal herb_ if you have enough space!

<comment><USER64> Heh. That's fine until the plants die :P Living things can be tricky sometimes.

It's good advice in general though. Having plants that depend on you to do something - even if that something is so simple as watering them - can mean the different between doing nothing on a day and doing one useful thing. And perhaps that one useful thing is enough to not have to write that day off as useless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Great insight. I never thought of it this way. Perhaps this is the best justification for art education. It is not about producing beautiful objects. Perhaps it is about our mental health. More like meditation. It is the process that gives us value, regardless of whether other people are willing to pay for the art that we make.

<comment><USER66> As someone who started out messing around with trackers in like '98 with FastTracker 2, and who hasn't made anything I would call a "real song" to this day, but spend hundreds and thousands of hours on it, I can absolutely confirm. I wrote lyrics that were decidedly not about making beatiful objects.. more like a process to clean myself, which produced dirty rags. The really mean and ugly ones I deleted after I had outgrown them, the rest I still love dearly even as they make me cringe from tip to toe haha. Art is a bit like dancing, it's awesome when people share it, but it would be tragic if they never did it just for themselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> To all the people who are posting "if you are sad" answers, you're wrong, and woefully uninformed. Depression is not sadness. I'm going to repeat this, depression is not sadness. The article is describing a component of cognitive behavioral therapy. Your "opinions" are ignorant, please stop.

</comment><comment><USER68> A little bit of smile, a little bit of patience, and a little bit of self- compassion brighten me up.

</comment><comment><USER69> I have a theory about why some people create art.

When you're happy and things are going well, there's no need for any external purpose for your life because living and experiencing it are their own purpose.

When things are going badly and you aren't happy, then you tend to start looking for ways to justify your existence, like maybe your life kind of sucks but it still has some higher-level meaning because you can still make something beautiful or that makes other people's lives better. I think a lot of good art came about in this way, and I think it's usually good for the creator of the art as well as the rest of us who are enjoying the things they created.

Helping people directly rather than through art is another thing that a person might do, but that's harder, especially when you're going through hard times yourself.

Of course it is quite possible to be prevented from creating art by depression, in which case other ways of dealing with it (such as seeking professional help) may be in order.

</comment><comment><USER70> Bacteria in the gut can also influence depression: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/)

</comment><comment><USER71> This sounds alarmingly like "don't be a baby and just get over it".

I feel good for the author that he found a way to battle his depression, but it's more of a luck thing, not a repeatable treatment.

</comment><comment><USER72> What about being depressed that you can never be with any of the most beautiful women, whose model photos consume you when you open Instagram

</comment><comment><USER73> When you are depressed your reward seeking behavior (dopamine) basically shuts down so it's really hard to get excited and do something.

</comment><comment><USER74> > Talk to your loved ones. Don't be afraid of judgment. You've already > encountered the worst of it: your own self-criticisms.

so true man, so true

</comment><comment><USER75> Realizing that you are feeling depressed and that you don't have to feel that way is the first step. Eventually you learn to recognize it and analyze the underlying cause. For me it's usually just something physiological that's been thrown off. Eating, sleeping, etc. However, coding is always a sure fire way to clear the mind. I've found that I am _always_ happy when caught up in coding something.

</comment><comment><USER76> To me it seems like depression is a mindset issue.

After all if depression was caused by external factors only wouldn't all poor people, ugly people, disabled people be depressed? Didn't the majority of the world always live in poverty? How would we have come so far if most people were depressed?

So the question is how can you truly adopt a positive mindset once you got a negative one? Doesn't that feel like self-deception?

<comment><USER32> My question to you is, how can you change your unconscious thoughts and behaviors?

Think of this in relation to thought crime, from 1984 by George Orwell. You say to yourself, "Okay, I am depressed. I have thoughts of suicide and in general, I am miserable 24/7\. Let's stop"

What do you do when, untriggered, a mistake from your past or even a happy memory of what once was comes to the front of your mind and you begin to dwell on it?

Do you tell yourself "Okay, stop thinking about this now"?

It doesn't really work like that, especially when you don't have someone to talk to.

I've struggled with these things for some time, largely alone. For me and a lot of people I've come across, depression isn't just sadness, or immense sadeness.

Depression is hopelessness, dread, [lots of] anxiety, self loathing and loneliness.

Depression is wanting so badly for someone to help but the few that are willing can't since you're unable to articulate what you need because you don't even know.

Depression makes you feel isolated and different from all of the people around you, forces you to be withdrawn. You want to break out so badly but you can't, and at worst people (friends and strangers alike) actively avoid you because you seem so off. Conversations are ended abruptly, odd looks are given, and that just adds to all the stress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> There was a post here with someone recommending LSD, just curious what happened to it.

Did the mods delete it or did the user?

<comment><USER78> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13366300](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13366300) ?

<comment><USER77> Thanks, just missed it I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> I've found DIY restoration and home improvement therapeutic. It's time consuming but rewarding.

</comment><comment><USER80> "When you can't make yourself do anything, do this thing that we recommend."

</comment><comment><USER81> I don't feel like it

</comment><comment><USER82> For me making something is like a drug. I have a lot of fun working on it and even immersing myself but after a while the fun runs out. If I finish what I am working on I feel awesome then almost immediately sad. Then I have to find something else.

</comment><comment><USER83> Just make sure not to share what you made on hackernews

</comment><comment><USER76> I think being able to draw would really make me happy but I just can't make it through those countless hours of deliberate practice I would need to put in before I can produce any worthwhile art.

<comment><USER84> That's crazy talk. How good would you have to be before your work was "worthwhile" enough to make you happy?

<comment><USER76> It would just have to not look ridiculous.

<comment><USER84> It doesn't take long at all to teach the basic tricks of how to draw. Maybe find a short course of evening classes at your local college? And have fun :)

Edit: I hope that doesn't sound patronising, I am assuming you are a beginner but of course you might just be someone with impossibly high standards

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> Or we can just automate more. The more automation, the more time to explore our inner self. I must say, we work hard to avoid all kind of depression, not to suffer from it.

</comment><comment><USER86> Eckhart Tolle Force is strong with this one

</comment><comment><USER87> And what do you do when you are depressed because you are banned from making something you love most?

</comment><comment><USER88> When selecting the thing to make, please avoid the child option. Making a kid to cure your depression is not a good idea.

</comment><comment><USER89> Yeah, just make something. And while you're at it, stop being so sad. Be awesome instead.

</comment><comment><USER90> 1986 - I feel sad. Well that's life.

2016 - I feel sad. It must be that I'm depressed, let me read more about depression so I'll know even how I fail in life, because everyone around me on social media is so much successful and happy.

<comment><USER91> This is unfair. It's more like:

1986 - I feel sad. Well that's life. _Kills self six weeks later_

In other words, it's not that people today are getting treatment for things that people in the past just knew how to live with; people today are getting treatment for things that people in the past _died_ from. People drank themselves to death, or ODed on drugs, or put a rope around their neck, all because they couldn't calm the storm raging inside their head.

<comment><USER54> What bullshit (the "I feel sad. Well that's life. Kills.. " triggered me :))

Feeling sad is part of life. Dealing with it requires practice. I think people did it a lot better before our age of needing to be happy all the time or worry something was wrong with us.

<comment><USER92> I don't really grasp how people who have only ever felt sad and have not experienced clinical depression are so quick to assume that only the former exists. Like, if you'd only ever had normal headaches and met someone with cluster headaches, would you just insist to them that their head just hurts and they need to deal with it?

<comment><USER54> Sorry my comment comes off as "just feel better".

But, as someone who was actually depressed and that due to things that in retrospect don't really matter, I do think that if I had been more resilient I would have had an easier time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> We are all slaves to dopamine. The higher the karma a user on HN has, the more enslaved he or she probably is ;)

More seriously, making things and having a sense of accomplishment was one of the dopamine-triggers I used in my new system for breaking bad habits: [https://repla.xyz/](https://repla.xyz/)</comment>


The Mundanity of Excellence - <AUTHOR> https://fermatslibrary.com/p/3d80cfb4 <comment><AUTHOR> tldr;

\- Excellence is qualitative - high performers focus on qualitative, not quantitative

\- Talent is a useless concept - à la K. Anders Ericsson

\- Excellence is mundane - "break it down into small, ordinary tasks"</comment>


Ask HN: How do mashups avoid copyright infringement lawsuits? - <AUTHOR>

Services like Dapper, Yahoo Pipes and Feedity facilitate the creation of mashups that are essentially built off other sites' data by retrieving that data as a convenient RSS feed.
Why do we not see more intellectual property lawsuits as a result of these recent applications of screen scraping?
I was looking at the Wikipedia entry for web scraping:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping
Under the "Legal Issues" section it talks about the tort issue called "Trespass To Chattels" which covers a wide variety of computer trespass crimes, including web scraping but from what I can tell there are very few recent lawsuits with respect to web scraping. The big one was Ticketmaster vs Tickets.com but that was back in 2000:
http://www.tomwbell.com/NetLaw/Ch07/Ticketmaster.html
Sites like popurls, alltop, google news, aggregate data from other news sites. According to copyright law, this should be permissable as long as the quote is limited and not a complete republication. These sites seem to follow this guideline.
But are there other recent sites that do not, who you would expect to fall afoul of the law? How do they avoid litigation - by asking the originating site for permission to republish? By paying the content owners for the privilege to republish? Or has the commonness of the Web2.0ish way of regurgitating content made this a moot issue by now - to the point where most original content owners have given up on trying to control the ownership of their content through litigation? <comment><USER2> Mashups are not all one thing. Sometimes it's a lone hacker modifying their own data, so licenses are not an issue. Sometimes it's data that the authors intended to be shared. And sometimes people are just retards and they steal or misuse other peoples' stuff.

Flickr is all about sharing and it tries pretty hard to give the users tools to control access to data and to express their licensing intent. For example, as much as is possible, there is simply no trace of private data in searches that don't have proper authorization. For public data, it is not a given that you can republish or modify the work. So the atom feeds have links to the licenses for each photo or video, and the API has similar features when obtaining photo info.

Users are able to grant a mashup app access to their private data in a formalized way (and to revoke it later). Finally, Flickr is also able to revoke the rights of any particular app to download data or simply throttle them to a reasonable amount per day.

All sites that offer RSS or an API should do these sorts of things. (The oAuth standard is a formalization of some of the techniques that sites like Flickr use.)

</comment><comment><USER3> How do you know these sites are not retrieving content using RSS feeds? In this case the "social contract" says that the content owner consent to syndication.

In reality any reproduction of content is a violation of copyright law- no if, ands, or buts about it. Even Google's act of displaying text from web pages in their search results is infringement but of course they are safe because they are so useful and the web would be nothing without search engines. But there is no implicit permission being given.

The same rule likely applies to mashups (although I do not know of any that have been taken to court.) Why litigate if an app helps users consume your content (there are exceptions of course. For example, if page views on your actual site decrease and you lose money as a result.)

<comment><USER4> your comment about "any reproduction of content is a violation of copyright law" is absolutely wrong and has been overruled in the courts many times (perfect 10 v. google, sheffield news v. sheffield times).

Google can display text from web pages because they attribute the text to the site and provide a link to the original source. There are limitations on use which is why google paid for their book search functionality.

<comment><USER3> What you have come up with is a fuzzy case, not clear cut. Even with fair use, the way search engines use content can easily be considered infringement.

I still stand by my statement and the only reason search engines are allowed to copy petabytes of COPYRIGHTED material is because they are so darn useful. I don't know of any other service that sidesteps intellectual property rights (whether through fair use or not) and makes a good amount of money that has been allowed to exist and thrive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> By being too small to bother with.

<comment><AUTHOR> So you think that once a mashup passes a certain threshold of popularity they need to deal with this legal issue but not before then?

<comment><USER6> I guess it also depends on whether it generates traffic (revenue, awareness, whatever) for the sites from which it takes its content. Don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that.

<comment><USER7> lots of time it takes major funding or acquisition by another company to make them a target... (I.e. YouTube)

<comment><USER8> YouTube was a target before the acquisition, they just hadn't moved on it yet. The speed with which Google paid off all of the rights holders (at the same time they acquired them) would indicate that it was far from the first time they'd thought of that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "Or, do mashups in a moderate way so that you are only providing limited quotes of the originating site and providing attribution?"

That's the civil way.

"It is often easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission." -- Grace Hopper

</comment><comment><USER10> I am not a lawyer but isn't it just like comedians cant be sued for copying something and giving it a spin? These are service sites, not content sites, so they are preforming a task upon the content and thus it's okay to do what ever. right?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Leaving aside the obvious ethical issue here, what's the solution? Don't do mashups? Or, do mashups in a moderate way so that you are only providing limited quotes of the originating site and providing attribution? Or, say to hell with it, I'll do what I want and only worry about legal problems if I get big enough that someone comes after me?</comment>


Empirical software engineering - <AUTHOR> http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/2011/6/empirical-software-engineering/1

<comment><AUTHOR> _A growing number of researchers believe software engineering is now at a turning point comparable to the dawn of evidence-based medicine, when the health-care community began examining its practices and sorting out which interventions actually worked and which were just-so stories._

while I wish we were getting there, much seems to still revolve around anecdotal success and failure stories. There has been some great analysis posted here on HN, though.</comment>


More info on Yahoo's acquisition of Right Media - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/2007/04/30/yahoo-rightmedia/ <comment><AUTHOR> Also see tuscan's submission: <http://news.ycombinator.com/comments?id=18031> and mashable: <http://mashable.com/2007/04/29/yahoo-rightmedia/></comment>


Ask HN: Favorite remote work realtime collaboration tool(s)? - <AUTHOR> I'm about to start a large highly complex and creative project with a strong team. Unfortunatly, with distancing in place, we can't spend all day in a room with a whiteboard. I imagine others have faced this dilemma. What are your favorite tools (or features if within common telecom SW like MS Teams/Zoom) for realtime, day-long remote ideation and collaborative design? <comment><USER2> I am actually working on a product called vlokit ([https://vlokit.com](https://vlokit.com)). It helps you collaborate beyond zoom. It's video chat for remote teams.

The cool thing is you can share your thoughts instantly. Other people reply on the same thread with their ideas, thoughts or feedback.

You keep track of context in a single place. People consume ideas better. It also means you end up doing better brainstorming on zoom.

Let me know if you have any questions.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've recently used [https://miro.com/](https://miro.com/) and overall was a good experience to collaborate

<comment><USER4> Also using Miro and enjoy it.

In addition to the software, make sure your team has good hardware. A screen large enough with high enough resolution is critical to see the whiteboard. What's also important is that video from meetings takes up screen real estate and with multiple participants, having enough size and resolution to see them all helps you stay connected. External webcams that can be adjusted are helpful also.

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, good advice thanks. Could you say roughly. What percentage of the day you'd spend in a collaborative environment vice independant work? I ask because if we were able to physically go into an office, we'd normally easily spend >50% of our time "whiteboarding" our hardware/software system of systems concepts for a few months before we begin the more detailed preliminary design phase that can last many more months.

I want to achieve the same productivity, but I'm very concerned about fatigue. I'm thinking we'll need to break our ideation sessions down into a greater number of shorter sessions.

<comment><USER4> It depends on the day but not such a high percentage usually. Our design phases don't last as long (software only).

Virtual meeting fatigue is real because there aren't as many natural breaks. It is important to make sure that people know they can excuse themselves for water/food/bio breaks.

I've also found that virtual whiteboarding is slower for me as I'm used to picking up a dry erase marker. It takes time to adjust to the different work stream but a huge benefit is the quality of the end product (no sloppy hand writing, easy to modify).

I don't have any direct advice geared towards your situation as our white boarding and planning phases are quite different in my industry.

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome - valuable input. I agree, there's probably a trade-off between slowing down the documentation of a collective stream of consciousness and the ability to read clear thoughts and make clean modifications.

I think being clear with the team up front about these trade-offs will make the transition to remote ideation smoother as people will hopefully be less frustrated that ideas aren't flowing 'like they used to', but perhaps they can flow better and in new, more productive ways. We shall see.

Sincerely, thank you!</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


New York State Covid-19 Technology Swat Team - <AUTHOR> https://www.ny.gov/programs/new-york-state-covid-19-technology-swat-team <comment><USER2> Looks like you do not need to be a New York citizen to join the effort, though this is the closest I found to confirming it:

> Given that many employers are having many workers work from home, volunteers > would collaborate virtually with New York State teams. So, preference will > be given to those in the Eastern and Central US timezones but we are open to > the west coast as well.

The interest submission form does not ask if you are a NYer, but does ask if you're willing to participate on-site or remote.

</comment><comment><USER3> From a Washington Post article[1]:

> A state official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity so he could talk > candidly, told me New York needs help with digital tools directly related to > the virus, such as building infrastructure for testing and scheduling. But > officials also need to improve remote access to government services that > could see a spike, such as unemployment services.

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the- tec...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the- technology-202/2020/03/26/the-technology-202-state-and-local-governments-are- asking-technologists-to-help-them-fight-coronavirus/5e7bdab788e0fa101a75280c/)

</comment><comment><USER4> Is there more detail about the queue of projects for which NY is seeking teams to help?

</comment><comment><USER5> Thanks, I signed up!

</comment><comment><USER6> So what is it? This page is lacking any real info.

<comment><USER7> Volunteer program for individuals and organizations that can provide IT training, support or solutions for people who suddenly need to start working from home.</comment></comment>


Apple's Mobile Payments Revolution May Have To Wait Another Year - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/iphone-nfc-2011-3 <comment><AUTHOR> Thinkcomp: I am happy for you, then, and wish you the best, f course. However, I must agree with Oliver and echo his sentiments precisely. NFC should be here _now_. And if there's any company to bring NFC to mass adoption, it is Apple.

<comment><USER2> Thanks for the well wishes. NFC isn't really any more convenient than what we're offering via barcodes though. The way in which the device is scanned doesn't matter as much as the software on the device and what you can do with it.

<comment><USER3> Although I think a pre-installed Apple option on an iPhone would prove mega popular, I'm also rooting for FaceCash.

<comment><USER2> You can count on something being pre-installed eventually. The goal for us is to be that something.

In the meantime, if you find yourself looking at an identity verification fee for sign up on our site, make sure to use a non-GMail/Hotmail/AOL etc. domain name or send me an e-mail first at aarong at thinkcomputer dot com if you don't have any other option than a free e-mail address.

<comment><USER3> Thanks, will do. It'd be interesting to hear your opinion on whether Apple pre-installing their own solution would have a positive or negative effect on FaceCash (increased awareness/huge competitor). Either way, keep up the good work!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> A shame, if true. Apple (maybe to a lesser extent, Google too) is the only company who could get mass adoption of NFC in a timely and intuitive fashion.

Carrying wallets around feels so retro, considering we have the technology to solve this already in our pockets.

</comment><comment><USER2> I can confirm that this is true: the iPhone 5 will not have NFC built in. It's very good news for our startup, even though we'll use it on other platforms as soon as we can.</comment>


Ask HN: As an employee, should I take equity or options? - <AUTHOR>

I've recently been employed by a fast growing, successful startup in New York.  We are currently doing ~$3M/year in revenue, and are on track to double again this year. As the first technical hire,  I've been offered around a 2% equity stake in the company (valued at $4M), which I can take as options or equity. The issue I'm having is that I don't currently have the money upfront to pay taxes for receiving equity.  Due to that, I may have to take it as options.  However, I'm a bit concerned about taking options, because I feel that if the company becomes successful, but not necessarily acquirable, my options won't be liquid.  The company founders (it's privately held, no VCs) in this case have shown interest in issuing dividends to shareholders in lieu of trying to sell. If the owners decide to issues dividends instead of reinvesting profits and selling the company, could my options become worthless and ineligible to participate in the dividends unless I purchase the shares at the strike price?<p>Long story short: I have the option to take equity or options, and no one is trying to screw me over, I just want to make sure I make the right call based on my financial situation and what's likely to happen to with the company company (more likely to issue dividends and remain private than sell or go public)  For lawyers: I believe it's an S-Corp. <comment><USER2> If you took options and executed today, wouldn't that mean paying $4M for $4 in value, ie worth $0(vs own $4M in stock outright)? You lose the present value with options.</comment>


Ask HN: Stealth mode average length? - <AUTHOR>

Would anyone know the average time spent in stealth mode for startups?<p>(Clustrix from YC W06 made me think of this question) <comment><USER2> That number won't be important because it varies widely from startup to startup. It depends on the type of product, how long it will take to conceptualize and develop, and also the people behind it. It could be as little as 2 months to as long as 2 years.</comment>


The transition to multilingual programming - <AUTHOR> http://www.curiousefficiency.org/posts/2014/08/multilingual-programming.html <comment><AUTHOR> > Choosing UTF-8 aims to treat formatting text for communication with the user > as "just a display issue". It's a low impact design that will "just work" > for a lot of software, but it comes at a price:

> \- because encoding consistency checks are mostly avoided, data in different > encodings may be freely concatenated and passed on to other applications. > Such data is typically not usable by the receiving application.

> \- for interfaces without encoding information available, it is often > necessary to assume an appropriate encoding in order to display information > to the user, or to transform it to a different encoding for communication > with another system that may not share the local system's encoding > assumptions. These assumptions may not be correct, but won't necessarily > cause an error - the data may just be silently misinterpreted as something > other than what was originally intended.

> \- because data is generally decoded far from where it was introduced, it > can be difficult to discover the origin of encoding errors.

It seems surrogateescape error handler introduces these issues back (only for Unicode strings instead of bytes this time) i.e., a+b is no longer well- defined (a, b Unicode strings may have lone surrogates due to different reasons). JSON permits lone surrogates in its strings so the data can easily spread over the network too.

> \- as a variable width encoding, it is more difficult to develop efficient > string manipulation algorithms for UTF-8. Algorithms originally designed for > fixed width encodings will no longer work.

> \- as a specific instance of the previous point, it isn't possible to split > UTF-8 encoded text at arbitrary locations. Care needs to be taken to ensure > splits only occur at code point boundaries.

It seems like a premature optimization to claim that UTF-8 being variable- width encoding is a performance bottleneck in most applications.

And if we want to show the data to a user then we should handle user-perceived characters (\X regex) that may span several Unicode codepoints e.g., to avoid splitting a Unicode string inside a character.

\---

Unicode by default is more complex than the article makes it appear to be e.g., see 🎅 𝕹 𝖔 𝕸 𝖆 𝖌 𝖎 𝖈 𝕭 𝖚 𝖑 𝖑 𝖊 𝖙 🎅 (it is for Perl but Unicode issues are mostly universal) [https://stackoverflow.com/a/6163129](https://stackoverflow.com/a/6163129)</comment>


How Reliable Is the StackOverflow Developer Survey? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@richardeng/how-reliable-is-the-stackoverflow-developer-survey-37c7c855ded0 <comment><USER2> For one, it is plagued by selection bias - but it never claimed otherwise: it's a survey of people who frequent SO and are likely to take a survey ;)</comment>