India bans TikTok, WeChat, and dozens of other Chinese apps - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/29/india-bans-tiktok-dozens-of-other-chinese-apps/ <comment><USER2> India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat.

As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn't conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform.

At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can't arbitrarily alter ranking results.

<comment><USER3> Are YouTube algorithms open? I don't really see a difference here. Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, but I don't see why. They're both going to react to material stimuli to increase their standings.

<comment><USER2> You have a good point. But TikTok is much more risky, and as as such requires much more scrutiny given existing body of knowledge between how chinese social media / chat companies such as WeChat enforce government censorship and aid in propagating misinformation.

This might be a shock to most people in the western world, but if you go on almost ANY news website in china, the headline news is dedicated to government propaganda.

The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately. Nearly all sizable firms have a party secretary that is involved in board level decisions, and steps in when things get political. You can ponder who has the final say.

<comment><USER3> > The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together > intimately

No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained.

It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't point out a boogeyman pulling the strings.

<comment><USER4> The concern is the coordination between Chinese foreign affairs/security services and the commercial sector.

For US-based firms, that's simply not the case.

Yes, YouTube needs to make sure Nike is happy. But Nike didn't just kill two dozen Indian soldiers.

Certainly there's privacy related concerns with US companies - as with Chinese companies. But nobody had accused the DoD of manipulating YouTube search rankings.

If the DoD wants to conduct a YouTube propaganda campaign, they can buy advertising like everybody else.

<comment><USER5> I don't know, I still remember how, in a poll before the invasion of Iraq, a majority of Americans though that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 11S attacks.

<comment><USER6> What are you trying to say here? That the DoD somehow was able to pressure the US media into supporting the Iraq war? Funny how they were able to do that, but wasn't able to get the "MSM" to get off Trump's back during his term.

<comment><USER5> Actually, from my readings I have the perception that the DoD was against the invasion of Iraq. But some elites decided that Iraq was going to be invaded and invaded it was.

Now somebody has decided that China is very bad, and here we are discussing how bad they are. Despise that in 1989 they massacred their population literally in the center of their capital, a few years later and until recently the investment in China grow exponentially. But, they are starting to be too powerful, so, they are not funny anymore. Now, we have to block their mobile apps.

What happened to Saudi Arabia by the way? Why are not the independent media talking about the relationship with them in the same way they talk about Iran?

<comment><USER7> And why a country that puts snipers to shoot on protesters and is planning the annexation of territory belonging to others (after several other illegal annexations) is the US's best friend?

<comment><USER8> I assume you are talking about Israel? There are quite a few countries that fit this description however.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I think this sort of response was inevitable and will be seen in more and more nations. China bans most of the popular websites and apps (including Wikipedia). The most recent trigger was the border standoff between India and China where Indian citizens could see and read both governments' responses, but Chinese citizens were only told Chinese govt's talking points.

This seems like yet another instance of the paradox of tolerance (reciprocity is a must have for a tolerant/liberal/globalized society): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)

<comment><USER10> The paradox of tolerance is bullshit though, as it's not based on empirical evidence.

It's just armchair philosophy used as justification for intolerance by intellectuals, the mental gymnastic people need to get over their cognitive dissonance.

AFAIK Plato came up with it to justify autocracy. That says it all actually.

<comment><USER11> > The paradox of tolerance is bullshit though

So _do_ you tolerate intolerance?

<comment><USER10> Sorry, not falling in that trap ;-)

<comment><USER12> et voila - we have a paradox

<comment><USER10> No, just a logical fallacy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> A reddit user, who claims to have reverse-engineered the TikTok app[1], concluded:

> TikTok is a data collection service that is thinly-veiled as a social > network. If there is an API to get information on you, your contacts, or > your device... well, they're using it.

> For what it's worth I've reversed the Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and > Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere near the same amount of data that > TikTok does, and they sure as hell aren't outright trying to hide exactly > whats being sent like TikTok is.

It doesn't seem surprising now, given that Zoom, which is also being developed in China, acts like a malware application, too[2].

I'm glad, that India is more aware of the possible consequences of using any software made in China than, for instance, the government of the UK is[3].

[1] [https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...](https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/)

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22748204](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22748204)

[3] [https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52126534](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52126534)

<comment><USER14> > > If there is an API to get information on you, your contacts, or your > device... well, they're using it. For what it's worth I've reversed the > Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere > near the same amount of data that TikTok does, and they sure as hell aren't > outright trying to hide exactly whats being sent like TikTok is.

I find this unconvincing and reddit comments are not trustworthy at all.

Wouldn't data collection be limited by the mobile OS anyway? I actually have TikTok on my phone and it requested no special permissions, compared to most other apps which don't even let you view content without validating a phone number.

<comment><USER13> > I find this unconvincing and reddit comments are not trustworthy at all.

You should probably read the original comment on reddit, not just my summary of it. I found it to be extremely detailed and technically convincing, even though it's still hard to determine the level of its trustworthiness.

<comment><USER15> The fact that his computer conveniently crashed and cannot backup his claims is pretty convincing?

<comment><USER16> Well since that edit of his was from 1 day ago, hopefully he does show the little proof he has remaining soon.

I am wary of his claims too.

<comment><USER13> Yes, that part about not being able to back up his claims wasn't there, when I first read that comment yesterday. And I also don't like that he mixes the technical critique with the moral critique of TikTok, which makes him look biased.

Still, it's a well known fact that authoritarian regimes tend to use all the tools available to them for spying in foreign countries. That's why Russia's Yandex, VKontakte, and Mail.ru are banned in Ukraine since 2017.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Almost all (except 1) are Chinese made.

I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with this [https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-has- intruded-423-metre...](https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-has- intruded-423-metres-into-indian-territory-in-the-galwan-valley-2253916)

<comment><USER18> Yeah: [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-china/indians- hold-f...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-china/indians-hold- funerals-for-soldiers-killed-at-china-border-burn-portraits-of-xi- idUKKBN23P0SS)

China is basically using these apps as spyware.

<comment><USER19> I run WeChat on a separate phone with LineageOS and monitor its actions via the XPosed framework. It regularly scans my Wi-Fi network, checks the list of installed apps, randomly accesses sensors, and does plenty of other dubious things.

There was also a period of time where if you didn't give it Location permissions, it wouldn't let you login to WeChat. With LineageOS I was able to "give" it the permission but hand it fake sensor data instead of actual hardware data from the OS side.

I'd never think to run WeChat on a closed-source OS like iOS that doesn't give access to these kinds of introspection.

That said I don't necessarily think Facebook's or Google's set of apps are necessarily better in terms of spying, but at least it's possible to message people using a pure web interface without downloading anything, which WeChat doesn't let you do.

<comment><USER20> Do you know Android tracks your location even after turning on Airplane mode?

<comment><USER21> GPS tracker works via satellite and is a receiver. It is not a transmitter. Airplane mode turns off cellular services. So realtime tracking is not possible unless Airplane mode is turned off. Android can record tracker information but it has no way of transmitting it if the phone is in Airplane mode.

<comment><USER20> Yes & it immediately transmits once it comes back to cellular service.

<comment><USER22> You're confusing Android with iOS. Android builds with Google services let you disable A-GPS (and in fact ask you if you want it on initial setup). iOS does not.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is a right move, in my view.

Chinese infiltration takes a myriad of forms and data collection is one of the biggest.

And those apps form a basis for click-of-the-button hacking.

And ordinary users will find it very very difficult to determine if an app is Chinese made or not.

And the Chinese govt. will have it's fingers in everyone of them, one way or the other.

What I do worry now is that since China has been exposed, it will resort to even elaborate deceptive methods to hide itself and it's infiltration.

China is not to be trusted.

<comment><USER24> You'll see the same attitude to the US from the rest of the world too

<comment><USER23> Yes. Especially in South America.

However, US is not about expansionism.

Its about trade and control. It wants markets, trade and resources.

China is about expansionism and lacks moral or ethical compass.

<comment><USER25> > However, US is not about expansionism

I love how the world paints China as an aggressive power while conveniently forgetting the completely unjustified and unwarranted invasion of Iraq by America.

From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands. America has toppled governments and literally occupied sovereign nations - all under the guise of "national security".

And it all happened in the distant past of just 17 years ago

<comment><USER26> >> From a neutral POV, China has only 'invaded' some islands.

You should read about China's antics in African countries.

[https://qz.com/on/china-in-africa/](https://qz.com/on/china-in-africa/)

<comment><USER25> Remind me when they drop bombs on an African country's capital and hang its leader, all on a false charge of possessing WMDs.

I see absolutely no way that any American can ethically justify the invasion of Iraq.

<comment><USER27> > Remind me when they drop bombs on an African country's capital and hang its > leader, all on a false charge of possessing WMDs.

They didn't. On the other hand they were the master of Khmer Rouge, who carried out a genocide killing millions of Cambodians in 1970s - [0]

> In April 1975, Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia, and in January, 1976, > Democratic Kampuchea was established. During the Cambodian genocide, the CPC > was the main international patron of the Khmer Rouge, supplying "more than > 15,000 military advisers" and most of its external aid. It is estimated that > at least 90% of the foreign aid to Khmer Rouge came from China, with 1975 > alone seeing US$1 billion in interest-free economics and military aid and > US$20 million gift, which was "the biggest aid ever given to any one country > by China". In June 1975, Pol Pot and other officials of Khmer Rouge met with > Mao Zedong in Beijing, receiving Mao's approval and advice; in addition, Mao > also taught Pot his "Theory of Continuing Revolution under the Dictatorship > of the Proletariat(无产阶级专政下继续革命理论)". High-ranking CPC officials such as Zhang > Chunqiao later visited Cambodia to offer help

You should also check out the short war with Vietnam in 1979, where atrocious crimes were committed against civilians.

You should finally read about Chinese's systematic effort to suppress Tibetans - [1], or more recently, Uyghurs

[0] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge) [1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet)

<comment><USER25> If we're going to talk about countries using their proxies to control and suppress native populations, then we can have an entire discussion about America's role in South America.

I'm not condoning China's past at all - I condemn what they did, and what they are doing right now. But any criticism of China can't come from a position of moral superiority, as it often does from western critics.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Covid cases are on rise in India. Government didn't handle lockdown well to accommodate guest (migrant) workers and they were stranded. On top of all these, lives of Indian soldiers died recently in a clash with Chinese soldiers and China is continuously testing limits at Galwan Valley. You need a disruptive breaking news to crush all these and prove Government is in control. This is simply that. This is nothing but fueling the anti-China sentiment growing in the country. This will temporarily relieve government from answering the other growing concerns.

It's also quite ironic that so many companies with strong Chinese funding are still operating. Chinese smartphone makers are also doing great in India despite economic slowdown. OnePlus recently did a flash sale and sold out.

It'll be interesting to see what's going to happen in Long term. But this one, it's just a spicy headlines.

<comment><USER29> Seems like they learned from Trump and the change in visa/immigration to distract the public.

<comment><USER17> People downvoted you unjustly. Your position is substantiated.

The amount of actual impact on trade in between China, and USA is completely microscopic in relation to the amount of noise, and commotion.

One can not believe that sides genuinely oppose each other, rather than doing a theatrical performance with unspoken mutual understanding.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I'm seeing lots of comments about national security-style concerns, and framing this in terms of the recent India-China skirmishes. That all makes sense.

Where I think a lot of folks are missing the point is that this is also a tremendous boost to local Indian entrepreneurship. One of the really clever aspects of China's Great Firewall is that it keeps out international competition, which would crush local startups. By banning more advanced, foreign competitors, India gives its local entrepreneurs a chance to grow hugely successful domestic apps, which can then compete internationally.

<comment><USER31> While I agree about symmetric response to China, here is the problem:

> By banning more advanced, foreign competitors, India gives its local > entrepreneurs a chance to grow hugely successful domestic apps, which can > then compete internationally.

If India bans international apps from competing within India, wouldn't Indian apps from these new found enterpreneurs expect the same response from other countries? There is a paradox here.

Why should any country allow Indian apps if they cannot compete in India? You realize this is the exact same situation as what India is doing with China. Now replace China with India.

What hypocrisy!

<comment> affb-4d68-a85 >wouldn't Indian apps from these new found enterpreneurs expect the same response from other countries?

I am from India, and I don't think this would matter a lot if the company doesn't suffer from grand delusions of trying to go global etc. There are a lot of very idiosyncratic things about the culture here (just as in other countries) where it makes a lot of sense to develop India specific apps.

Also, the nature of innovation itself would change if an app is developed to cater primarily to people in India. A perfect example of this is the recently introduced UPI payments scheme, which if I understand correctly is already far ahead in terms of convenience when compared to payments services in developed countries. And I am very thankful neither Facebook nor TikTok controls it in any way, shape or form!

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment, as it applies generally to trade policies between true allies. The only problem I have is that China is an exception when it comes to these bilateral trade policies, because they have a long history of bullying [1] smaller neighbors, and they can rarely be trusted when it comes to any kind of neighborliness. People who are pro-China should come and live a few years in these regions, and I expect they won't remain pro-China for very long.

And then throw in the rampant IP theft, and it seems to me that pro-China advocates are acting like useful idiots.

I will add a very ironic thing I read recently by one of those useful idiots, who said "Thank God this didn't start in somewhere like India, because there's absolutely no way that the quality of Indian governance could move to react in the way that the Chinese have done" [2]. The irony of course is that China is trying to convince the world that the virus didn't even _originate_ in China. In other words, Mr. Jim O'Neill would likely be in Chinese prison if he had made that statement from inside of China. I bet the heavy-handedness wouldn't taste so good if you become one of the victims. Nassim Taleb would have mocked this as the statement of a guy who "has no skin in the game".

[1] [https://news.usni.org/2020/01/27/panel-china-now-well- positi...](https://news.usni.org/2020/01/27/panel-china-now-well-positioned- to-bully-neighbors-in-south-china-sea)

[2] [https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/thank-god-this-didnt- start-i...](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/thank-god-this-didnt-start-in- india-jim-oneill-praises-chinas-coronavirus-response.html)

<comment><USER32> I was glad that finally someone provided some sort of reference, but the article's title turned out to be "China Now Well Positioned to Bully Neighbors in South China Sea". I don't doubt what you're saying, but it hardly supports the bully accusation. It was an interesting read, I had no idea that the host countries of US bases had to help pay for them.

Speaking of state victims, here's a fun fact - India rounded up all of its ethnic Chinese residents (including Indian citizens) and put them into an internment camp for 5 years with no apology or compensation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Chinese- Indians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Chinese-Indians)

<comment> affb-4d68-a85 Here is Wikipedia's version of the story:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Reed_Bank_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Reed_Bank_incident)

"On 13 June 2019, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman pronounced the incident and "ordinary maritime accident".[10] The following day, the Chinese Embassy in Manila released a statement via Facebook claiming that a Chinese fishing boat, Yuemaobinyu 42212, "was berthed near Reed Bank when it was suddenly besieged by 7 or 8 Filipino fishing boats". In attempting to evade the Filipino boats, the Chinese vessel's lightning grid cable dragged into the Filipino boat's pilothouse, causing the boat to tilt and founder.[11] This Facebook post however, was later deleted.[12]

China released a revised statement on 18 June 2019, this time omitting the narrative that Yuemaobinyu 42212 had been besieged by 7 or 8 Filipino fishing boats. The statement referred to the incident as an "accidental collision" between fishing boats and offered sympathies to the Filipino fishermen.[13]

In August 2019 Chen Shiqin, the president of the Guangdong Fishery Mutual Insurance Association sent a letter to the Philippines apologizing for one of its member's ships sinking F/B Gem-Ver and subsequently abandoning its crew.[14] It was initially reported that the apology was accepted, but this was later refuted by the Philippine Department of Foreign Affairs.[15]"

The initial reaction to the incident certainly looks like bullying. What would you call it?

>>Speaking of state victims, here's a fun fact - India rounded up all of its ethnic Chinese residents (including Indian citizens) and put them into an internment camp for 5 years with no apology or compensation.

There was an actual war going on at that time. There is a perception in India that China backstabbed the Indian prime minister of that day. I am fairly certain not one person in China would agree.

Isn't that exactly what USA did to its Japanese citizens during World War II? Is that supposed to prove anything one way or another? Yes, during war lots of ugly things happen. But that's why nobody likes to go to war, isn't it? The first casualty of war is the truth.

<comment><USER32> Thanks for providing more references. Maybe I'm dense, but where exactly is the bullying by the Chinese side? It seems to have gone from a claim that 7-8 Filipino fishermen besieged them, to them saying it was an accident and apologizing.

> Isn't that exactly what USA did to its Japanese citizens during World War II

It was, but eventually they got the dignity of an apology and a check to get their lives in the USA back on track.

The war in India also only lasted barely 2 months, to be held for 5 years seems excessive.

> But that's why nobody likes to go to war, isn't it? The first casualty of > war is the truth.

Sometimes the loss of truth is placed before the lead up to war. I'm seeing a lost respect for truth (I'm not directing this at you) and I find it very concerning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I don't wanna sound like "that guy" but we have to take a step back and ask ourselves how we got here. The entire software industry has it's roots in espionage and war, even though the past 30 years have seen a massive expansion of consumer technology that, on the surface, completely removes us from that history. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. It's a wonder that we have consumer tech for entertainment and enhancing our lives and that we've built vast markets on it. But, we can't forget the fact that our experience on that end of the technology spectrum doesn't negate where and when we fit into a broader timeline spanning generations. If the doers, the technologists and creators forget this, countries like China are going to run roughshod over the United States, and use what they've learned from and about us against us and against democratic ideals abroad. I've been telling people for the past year or more to stop using TikTok and I get mostly snickers or "that's interesting". American hubris leads us to think we'll always be "on top" and that discoveries like this are fundamentally inconsequential. There's larger plays in flux at the geopolitical scale and it'd be a mistake for Americans to ignore it and pretend it's "no big deal." India has it's own reasons to conduct the ban, right or wrong, but American's should really consider following suit, especially as we head into election season and as social unrest and loose ends continue to shape America's future.

</comment><comment><USER34> Everyone questioning India, should first Question China ! Why does this country ban these services ? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China)

<comment><USER35> > Everyone questioning India, should first Question China

Or, you could question both. Whataboutism isn't a valid argument, so censorship of the Internet can still be wrong at the same time as China is a malevolent force both on the Internet in general terms and for specific pieces of software or services in more concrete terms.

<comment><USER34> Well, You have grown comfortable with double standards , somehow equating China with rest of world. Please spend sometime questioning that delusion. China is NO WAY QUALIFIED to question any country ! Western decency has been exploited by China for sometime.. But, For Indian politics it is payback time, killing innocents means crossing a red line...it will trigger response ! btw, US senators did introduce a bill way back in march to ban tiktok [https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott- introduc...](https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce- legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> This news must be seen along with what happened early this year.

[https://www.medianama.com/2020/01/223-the-great-indian- firew...](https://www.medianama.com/2020/01/223-the-great-indian-firewall/)

A Great Indian Firewall is shaping up. Now that the sentiment is all "anti- China!", people would celebrate instead of protesting the great firewall.

"Masterstroke!"* - Indian public.

*Basically, anything the current leader does, his PR team and his party spokespersons end up terming "unprecedented" / "masterstroke" / "genius move". Everything seems headed towards hardcore Soviet scheme of things.

</comment><comment><USER37> So if WeChat is basically the only messaging app allowed in China, and WeChat is not allowed to be used in India, is there any widely available platform that Indian citizens can use to chat with Chinese citizens? Making it impossible or at least very difficult to communicate with people in another country seems like it's only going to make any divide even worse in the long term. Think of the fallout of Facebook filter bubbles but to an extreme, by making it very difficult to even communicate with someone in a different culture with different viewpoints.

<comment><USER38> > So if WeChat is basically the only messaging app allowed in China

How did you get that impression? There are a ton of chinese messanging apps, e.g., QQ, which is also on the list of banned apps.

<comment><USER39> Great job refuting your own point. QQ is owned by the same parent company as WeChat (Tencent). Tencent is also implementing the Chinese Social Credit Score system, and so in my humble opinion, is the tech arm of the chinese government.

<comment><USER38> It really comes down to what "basically the only one" means. But I wouldn't aggree that "google hangouts is basically the only messaging app" would even extend to all the other messaging apps google ever produced. (Please note that this is an example of formulation and what I consider that encompasses, not that hangouts is the only messaging app in any context.)

But besides that: There exist further chinese messengers and non chinese messengers that are not blocked in china.

The rest is, in my opinion, irrelevant to the topic of wechat being the only chinese messaging app.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> This ban is primarily to satiate anti-China sentiment.

The global economy is too interwined with China. No country can afford to put a blanket ban on things that matter, without a viable plan-B.

<comment><USER41> Overnight, I agree. But I think the decoupling will happen. The outsourcing to China took about 10 years (mid 90s to mid 2000s). It will likely not take a lot longer to decouple. 10y is very rapid.

<comment><USER18> We in the U.S. should have partnered more closely with India in the first place. India is democratic and hold values closer to our own. The CCP not so much.

<comment><USER42> International Partnerships are not based on values or Democracy/*cracy. China moved to market based economy earlier then India and being an autocratic country the move was swift and efficient. US wanted to befriend China against Russia in 70s/80s. India started late and kept struggling internally because of the democratic values.

If values were such important, Saudis wouldn't have been your best buddies.

<comment><USER43> >[not all] International Partnerships are not based on values or Democracy/*cracy

FTFY.

Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely was) primarily based on values.

The Saudis are a pragmatic ally, not a values-based one. Both exist.

<comment><USER7> > Think about the "special relationship" among the UK/US that is (definitely > was) primarily based on values.

Which values? Atheism? The welfare state? Well defined social classes? The royal family?

<comment><USER43> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relationship)

It's always disappointing commenting on HN only to get reddit/twitter "zinger" replies.

<comment><USER7> You entirely missed my point: I'm not questioning the existence of a "special relationship", I'm asking if it's based on "values". What values does the US share with the UK more than with most other western countries?

<comment><USER43> I don't think there was really a point to be missed.

If you have a point, go ahead and make it.

<comment><USER7> Strange, because the question I asked and you didn't answer was pretty clear: "What values does the US share with the UK more than with most other western countries?".

My point (implicit, but obvious) is that "values" is a weasel word used to justify power alliances under the pretension of some shared positive ethical trait.

For the specific case, I feel that the UK and the US have very different values, as it's easy to see comparing the society and recent history of the two countries.

<comment><USER43> Thanks. I didn't answer because it common for people making a lowest common denominator comment to just pepper you with questions that never land on a final point.

I think your point is interesting. What do you mean by "power alliances" in this context? Do you mean that they're mostly (or entirely) allied for their combined war making power?

For my part, I think the relationship is based on a general understanding that their people are alike in custom, beliefs, traditions, geopolitical place, etc. After all, America is the troubled child of the UK that grew up to dominate the world.

<comment><USER7> Sorry, I know "power alliances" wasn't too clear, but it was just a way to stress that these are in effect temporary, shifting alliances between powerful organisations (such as nation states are).

> For my part, I think the relationship is based on a general understanding > that their people are alike in custom, beliefs, traditions, geopolitical > place, etc

Yes, and this is what I was sceptical about. Just to give a few examples, the UK society is extremely secularised, with more than 50% of the population declaring itself non religious; nobody thinks it's a right to carry firearms; police itself is mostly unarmed; politically, there's a strong labour party that is way to the left than the US political mainstream, a welfare state and universal social security and health care. The demographic composition is much more homogeneous than that of the US, with a large indigenous population and relatively recent immigration. There is a lot of value put on tradition, social classes and social order. There is a hereditary aristocracy that holds reserved seats in a branch of the parliament. Etc.

> After all, America is the troubled child of the UK

Yes, and they share a language. But the US is an entirely different place: a whole continent with deserts, mountain ranges, tropical beaches and freezing wilderness. A huge amount of space that for centuries has attracted immigrants from all over Europe and the world; the US culture is a mix of many conflicting cultures released in a colonial setting where conquering and settling was for centuries the way forward.

Imo, the relationship of the US with the UK is mostly sentimental, while that of the UK with the US is one of subalternity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I have a conspiracy theory here. Alibaba & AliExpress are missing in that banned list. This seems more like a direct hit on ByteDance rather than China.

Facebook recently invested in Reliance Jio. There have been other investments from Silver Lake, Vista Equity Partners etc.

TikTok is a big threat to FB, Instagram & YouTube. ByteDance apps TikTok, Vigo Video, Helo have around 300 million users in India. Facebook user base is 280 million. ByteDance had more apps planned for this year.

Banning BD is a big win for Facebook & Reliance. Government also get's to score a few points in this coronavirus mess.

<comment><USER44> Its more to do with the border skirmish.

<comment><USER20> I don't understand what's the objective here. Banning these apps will have 0 or little financial impact on China. This seems more like a publicity stunt. Banning Alibaba would have been a bold move.

<comment><USER45> > I don't understand what's the objective here. Banning these apps will have 0 > or little financial impact on China

The intent is not financial. The intent is to block the direct access that China has to manipulate and shape opinions inside India. It's to prevent China from opening another front in it's ongoing war with it's neighbors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> India smartphone marketshare:

Xiaomi 30%

Vivo 17%

Samsung 16%

Realme 14%

Oppo 12%

Others 11%

[https://www.counterpointresearch.com/india-smartphone- share/](https://www.counterpointresearch.com/india-smartphone-share/)

<comment><USER47> Curious why can't India learn the lesson that China uses to change these statistics in 3 months? Of course, if it is related to long-term national security.

\- Ban the companies for 3 months. Then allow selectively. \- Reduce the tax from South Korea and Japan.

<comment><USER48> Because of trade deficit that is already in China's favour. I assume banning these companies means further actions on China's part that will impact India even harder.

<comment><USER49> Would deficit reduce if we ban mobile providers, since deficit is more on side of India.

Doesn't china comparatively has lesser moves than india as it enjoys trade benefit far more than India.

<comment><USER48> No here we don't know what steps they would take, they could block trade of things we need. Its not just about the trade deficit itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I'm curious how this will affect the local startup scene. There's definitely a great demand for these products that now needs to be fulfilled by local / non- Chinese international players.

If this ban lasts:

My concern is that Facebook will introduce India-specific products to fill this void, while my hope is that local players significantly up their product quality and reach to build a strong domestic tech scene - the way China did a decade and a half ago w/ Tencent, Baidu, ByteDance, etc. This domestic talent expansion will help build a stronger domestic tech ecosystem.

Why the concern w/ Facebook? They already have a deathly grip on Indian consumers w/ WhatsApp, Facebook, Instagram. Tik Tok was the only major social platform used by Indians that wasn't owned by Facebook, and now they have a chance to potentially grab that as well. I'm not comfortable with one company owning that much attention, I don't trust their privacy policies with their data privacy track record and they don't iterate quickly enough on localized product-features meaning Indian users lag months / years behind western regions (e.g. Instagram in-app shopping experience).

<comment><USER51> What do you think the local market needs right now?

Can you give some example?

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> To be clear, India has banned most of the apps listed for the members of their army years ago.

Also, many of the apps listed have been removed from the Google Play store several times for violating Googles developer policies and user privacy.

Anyone familiar with Android knows to avoid apps made by DU and CM.

Another little known factoid is that the "Beauty camera" line (Mitu?) has an admistrative level person that used to work at Cambridge Analytica.

<comment><USER53> Surprised a free tool app would want that guy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> What surprises me is that the discussion here is taking the original article at face value. Sure, the Indian govt is citing national security as the reason for the ban. But take a slightly cynical view, and focus your attention on this sentence:

"Jayanth Kolla, an analyst at research firm Convergence Catalyst, told TechCrunch the move was surprising and will have huge impact on Chinese firms, many of which count India as their biggest market."

That's the real reason. This is just posturing between two neighbouring countries who are currently involved in a border dispute. There is already a lot of military posturing, a lot of diplomatic posturing and now a lot of market posturing, which includes the Internet.

<comment><USER55> It's probable that the border issue made them more willing to take actions that they might normally avoid in fears of unnecessarily angering China. I think of it less as pure posturing and more as, if we're already in a border dispute we might as well take the opportunity to do some things we planned to but put off.

<comment><USER56> Yup, this border issue may well be a good thing for India. New Delhi can now officially treat China as an adversary nation and take steps towards securing its national interest without any moral dilemma and without any care as to how CCP will perceive such steps. CCP is now considered hostile so there's nothing to lose for India.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> It has everything to do with current border skirmish. Also, 44% percent of tiktok users are from India.

<comment><USER58> Source on the demographics? That's really interesting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> I hope many countries to follow this example, not by banning and censorship but actually banning the botnets that are no good and just for mining data.

</comment><comment><USER60> For context, India and China are currently locked in a border conflict and both sides are building up[1]. There is also the issue of PRC's National Intelligence Law, which mandates every Chinese company's assistance and cooperation with the state intelligence[2].

1\. [https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/satellite- images-s...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/satellite-images-show- buildup-on-india-china-border/articleshow/76666203.cms)

2\. [https://www.lawfareblog.com/beijings-new-national- intelligen...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/beijings-new-national-intelligence- law-defense-offense)

</comment><comment><USER61> We've changed the URL from [https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206](https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1635206) to an article that adds a bit of background. If there's a better article, we can change it again.

The site guidelines call for original sources, of course ([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)), but press releases are a bit of a grey area because they tend to leave out important context, if not outright mislead.

</comment><comment><USER62> Glad to see India understanding the threat to national security posed by these apps. I would like to see the US do the same.

<comment><USER63> I would find it very problematic if the US government attempted to interfere with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want. I absolutely do not trust the US government to be the arbitrator of what app's are "safe".

<comment><USER64> This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. Given that 30% of income goes to the feds, might be time to change the government to be more trust worthy. Good thing elections are coming up.

<comment><USER63> This is a pretty common response: just vote for the other guy. Too bad no one trustworthy is running for the executive office.

<comment><USER65> So it's time to change the system. Ranked choice voting and a third party could make a world of difference. Continuing to give all your money to an entity you don't trust isn't a working plan. It leads to, for instance, the COVID response.

Defeatism around something so critically important to the success of a country isn't a plan.

<comment><USER63> I was not trying to suggest defeatism, just sick of hearing voting in the current system as a reasonable response to anything. Not saying don't vote, just saying stop suggesting it's the way to fix specific problems. Voting probably won't fix most problems.

Absolutely, one of the big systemic changes we need to effect is a switch to ranked choice voting. There are several other significant changes to the US's voting system that would also be needed. Things like a complete elimination of voting machines, and honestly a full switch to vote-by-mail would probably help.

Of course, the voting system in this country isn't even the biggest problem, some how. Things need to change before next election, not in a few election cycles.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> Well.. besides the blatant privacy concerns, it seems fair to ban Chinese apps since they themselves also ban foreign apps.

<comment><USER67> I strongly disagree. We should prefer to not divide the world if we can. The sentiment "If they can be bad, so can I" is not the recipe for a world I want to build. I believe the world would regress if we kept acting like that.

<comment><USER68> It's easy to be idealistic while sitting at home comfortably . These 2 countries are currently at the brink of war, when one country attacks you, you need to defend yourself anyway you can. I don't see anything wrong in Indias actions. China has long asked for such rebuttal from its neighbors.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> I am an Indian and here is my perspective.

A significant portion of Indian smartphone users are not technically literate. Lot of shady adware developed in China is ubiquitous in India, due to inertia and network effects, as well as lack of awareness about security / permissions given to apps etc..

For example, that file sharing application called ShareIt. That's a piece of shit. But people used it and if you wanted to share some movie / song / something like that with other people, you would've needed that crap. I have refused to use such adware since an year and it worked for me because content I consume was different, there was cheap Jio internet and I didn't need to share much files with others. The technically educated of us used Google Files or Xender which were better than ShareIt. And most people don't own PC/Laptop thus Pendrives are out of question.

Similarly people used browsers like UC browser without concerns, because they didn't know better.

Now there is friction between China and India, the ubiquity of Chinese apps is a threat, and Govt. has taken right step. But more stuff needs to be banned, and the danger needs to be clearly communicated instead of a blanket ban, which leads people to think it is just an act of patriotism.

</comment><comment><USER70> Surprisingly HNers are embracing the concept of cyber sovereignty that China and Russia are pushing.

<comment><USER71> money makes it easy for them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> For anyone interested, here is the US National Security's view on the current standoff between China and India, from China's strategic perspective:

[https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/chinas-strategic- assessmen...](https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/chinas-strategic-assessment- of-the-ladakh-clash/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB)

Seems these repercussions are already put into consideration.

</comment><comment><USER73> Slightly off topic. After the Covid-19 masks are not useful / we must wear masks fiasco, if you are willing to think it through, it is painful how most media are not independent at all. At best they are beholden to group thinks, parroting government officials. At worst they are just instruments of propaganda. I believe it is time for each person to control the information they receive, just like diet. AdBlockers are a good first step.

</comment><comment> affb-4d68-a85 I am from India, and I don't understand this. Why are people comparing TikTok to Facebook and Google? Facebook and Google do horrible user tracking, but there is a big difference.

There is such a thing as _real_ dissent in the country where Facebook and Google are headquartered. It actually matters to people who use these services.

Do you doubt it? A Twitter account like this cannot be run from _inside_ of China:

[https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas](https://twitter.com/Project_Veritas)

If you disagree, please comment with a Twitter profile (preferably written in English, but I can also use Google Translate if it is written in Chinese) and change my mind.

What about all the naysayers about a LOT of America's policies who still have a public platform? Here is an example:

[https://www.lewrockwell.com/](https://www.lewrockwell.com/)

By the way, just because I am linking to it doesn't mean I agree with everything on that website, which is sort of the whole point isn't it? I am still able to read and then think about dissenting voices.

Can someone show me the Chinese equivalent of that website?

</comment><comment><USER74> India China have military asymmetry, in favor of later.

In such scenario, it is not difficult to imagine, that India use whatever strengths it has, to compensate for this asymmetry.

India is a big digital market. Consumerism is being weaponized. One can debate if this indeed is the driver or not. Yet, a statement has been made.

Boycott of Chinese physical goods is not as straightforward as digital ones. Low hanging fruit, to make a statement.

</comment><comment><USER75> Disclaimer: This is not investment advice, this is lunatic gambling advice from a systems engineer with a background in polymers who is an American born Indian.

Tibet quenches the thirst of 3Bn people through ~10 rivers in SE Asia.

Kashmir and Tibet are red hot conflict zones and this is through and through a contest of freshwater.

This is a powder keg unlike any other and this scenario is collateral shrapnel.

China has 5% arable land and its water becomes more putrid by the day. 20% of industrial waste water pollution is from textile dye that's dumped into water, and China has cornered the textile manufacturing market.

China uses water for dams. They built something like 20k+ dams in 70 years.

China uses water for agriculture, extremely inefficiently.

China weaponized water data on the Brahmaputra river and it caused downstream deaths in India.

I'm aggressively invested in $DFEN and $BA.

Boeing has 400 vendors in Inda. This will heat up.

MOD and DRDO ain't no joke.

If you were a murderous dictator like Xi Jinping, it would be prudent to kill the muslim minority to ensure a long and stable CCP indoctrinated control of Tibet and all the water brouhaha.

<comment><USER76> Yes, obviously, long term intense military conflict between nuclear powers leads in incredible security.

While both countries engage in Sabre rattling, its inconceivable that there would be an arms race of the kind that would cause a significant change in the stock price of defense contractors.

A more likely scenario is the upcoming Biden administration steps in and bullies China and/or India into backing down. The hollowing out of the US State department has probably been one of the most underappreciated casualties of the Trump administration.

<comment><USER77> > A more likely scenario is the upcoming Biden administration steps in and > bullies China and/or India into backing down.

Australian here wayyyyyy out of the US political loop. Is Joe Biden looking likely to win? Has he been promising a hard-line stance on China?

<comment><USER76> He's up by wide margins in the polls so statistically, yes.

Although, as the 2016 election showed, polls may not always be reliable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> Everyone is kissing China's netherlands for their hardware, and suddenly becoming precious over their software.

Hippopotamuses!

<comment><USER32> Hardware is also getting a fair share of international bans

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> How does this ban actually get enforced? How are the apps blocked on devices which already have them installed?

<comment><USER80> Sounds like it'll be a combination of pulling them from the app stores in India and ISPs blocking connections to the relevant server IPs.

<comment><USER81> Any sources? I am also curious about this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> Not completely related I guess, but ...

I recently bought an LG phone for mobile dev (LG V30). I need to enable developer mode to properly use this device for development. I am able to set the device in developer mode, but there is no way to select transfer protocol over USD with connected computer.

I worry this device might be hacked and this device is modified to prevent people from removing any hacks. I am also not able to do a hardware reset using the instructions I can find on internet.

On the other hand, this could just be some weird Android bug. But I think it's all quite suspicious.

By the way, part of the OS (e.g. the first menu shown after doing a soft reset) are not in English, only in Korean (I think). Also a bit weird imo.

Either way, these weird experiences with this device made me a lot more worried about security.

</comment><comment><USER83> An aspect that most people seem to be missing is that this gives the Indians an opportunity to create their own apps and social networks. This has two benefits, it is a safeguard against information propaganda, and it gives protection to the Indian software industry to grow.

</comment><comment><USER84> The kids are going to be pissed with Mr. Modi :) I hope he has a plan of where this goes.

<comment><USER85> Kids can't vote.

<comment><USER86> And parents will appreciate that their kids are spending less time on social media (hopefully) :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> While there may be a legitimate discussion to be had about the dangers of foriegn-state controlled mass social media, it is rather disheartening to see so many cheer the restriction of user freedom and increasing censorship.

</comment><comment><USER31> I just noticed that the link to the official Indian gov press release was modified to TechCrunch.

@dang - why was this changed, do you know? May be the Indian Gov Press release site hit hard by HN?

</comment><comment><USER88> > The 2020 China–India skirmishes are part of an ongoing military standoff > between China and India. ...numerous Indian government officials said that > border tensions will not impact trade between India and China despite some > Indian campaigns about boycotting Chinese products. [1]

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_China–India_skirmishes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_China–India_skirmishes)

</comment><comment><USER89> I run a hard tech product team, our product is moving from prototype to the alpha stage in the next three months. Lots of components come in from China, because they cost twice as much in this country. WeChat is how we (or anyone) talk to Chinese vendors. No Canton Fair, no China travel, communication cut off at its knees, and issues with customs' clearances - this is going to be a brutal time for strained budgets and timelines.

</comment><comment><USER90> This is fascinating - I have been quantitatively tracking TikTok trends and Indian songs consistently top the charts on TikTok by view counts. This will displace many Indian TikTok users and either a new platform will spring up, or Indians will get slightly better at using VPNs (just like internet users in China).

(For the curious, my TikTok data is shared here: [https://tiktometer.com](https://tiktometer.com))

</comment><comment><USER91> This weekend "someone" was asserting TikTok was extremely malicious, but a lot of things in it raised red flags for me. I wrote up details about the supposed malicious action, and got a little discussion going over on this thread, but it hasn't gotten traction so far:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679649](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679649)

TL;DR: A tweet posts photos of "someone on reddit" saying they had analyzed the TikTok client and it was sending all sorts of data and able to execute .zip downloads, etc. Reddit thread has the poster saying "I'd provide proof, but it's in a soldered on SSD in a broken computer."

</comment><comment><USER92> With the recent killing of 20 Indian soldiers, conventionally India would've responded militarily. Though the reality is India can't afford a military conflict with the much more powerful China. Thus banning the apps is a good response. You kill our 20 people and alter boundaries, we cut off your businesses from our markets at the very least.

</comment><comment><USER93> None of these apps are essential or especially unique so they'll be replaced by some local clone few weeks later. Funnily enough that's exactly how it works in China itself — they ban stuff and then replace with local clones which sometimes end up being even better than original except for the spyware bloat.

</comment><comment><USER34> I am thinking why does China ban Google, Facebook, Twitter and Youtube ? What are they afraid of ? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China)

</comment><comment><USER94> Evidence suggests Modi regime was receiving Chinese donations for many years;

Recently TikTok donated 30 crore rupees to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM_CARES_Fund](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PM_CARES_Fund)

Will Modi regime return these funds ?

</comment><comment> phoe-krk Clash of Kings? That online game? Why?

<comment><USER95> Clash of Kings is owned by a Chinese company called Elex-Tech aka "Beijing ELEX Technology Co". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Kings)

Not to be confused with the more popular "Clash of Clans" which is owned by a Finnish company [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Clans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Clans)

<comment><USER96> That Finnish company is now owned by a Chinese company.

<comment><USER95> Ha, you're right Supercell is 81.4% owned by Tencent. It's hard to keep up these days.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> This is going to empower startups in India. To create things in India. Every country needs to go product route. Create more than consumption. we will get variety as well as fosters creativity. One thing for sure empowering startup culture is a game changer for india IMO

</comment><comment><USER98> It's funny looking at the responses bashing India's decision here. With the current geo-political climate, and China pretty much swallowing up and controlling all of India's neighbours - Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Nepal, I'd say this decision is long overdue.

In more recent months, China's military has become increasingly aggressive against India and in the South China Sea, and they've just recently passed a draconian 'national security' law in Hong Kong which pretty much allows them unlimited control over the territory.

With this in mind, China is starting to look like a grave threat to the peace and stability of Asia and beyond (apropos their recently influencing the elections in Kiribati and having a puppet leader installed).

India welcoming Chinese made software is like the US deploying Iranian or North Korean origin software. Tell me how that works out.

</comment><comment><USER99> I've been passively thinking about this recently. Is there any pathway for individual users to (effectively) do the same for their devices or network, or both? Is IP blocking via hosts or otherwise still effective enough to be useful?

<comment><USER45> For networks, a Raspberry pi with pihole would be great starting step that still works

</comment></comment><comment><USER100> Absolutely right decision. There are no private companies in China, all of the corporate entities directly or indirectly depend on CCP, which uses every opportunity to damage national security of enemies.

</comment><comment><USER101> Tiktok is a happy app. It make you smile, laugh and relax. Ofcourse India will ban it.

Next will be zoom why there is JioMeet. Can anyone find 5 differences between JioMeet and Zoom app.

</comment><comment><USER102> I am not sure when and how this ban will take into effect because right now it is still available for download in playstore. So it seems to be more of a strategic move in response to the border issues.

</comment><comment><USER103> It would be interesting to see Tiktok's usage chart today

</comment><comment><USER104> This comment might be too meta/off topic but..

This thread is hilarious. You have people spamming the same link over and over again and not be greyed out, but if you look into their comment history you'll find dead comments with such controversial opinions as "spice was lucrative during the age of sail" and "Vegan Italian food is possible". HNers are a mercurial lot.

I'm looking forward to see the reactions of HN once similar bans get enacted closer to home. The free speech and free market absolutists have been silent so far, let's see how long they can maintain the cognitive dissonance.

</comment><comment><USER105> Sad to see India degenerating into nationalism and populism.

<comment><USER32> I feel like this could be said for the rest of the world as well

</comment></comment><comment><USER106> There's an active border dispute currently going on between India and China. Probably equivalent to early movement of a pawn in a game of chess.

</comment><comment><USER107> China bans far more stuff, anyone questioning India doesn't realise what China bans.

TikTok and a lot of some Chinese apps are seriously untrustworthy

</comment><comment><USER108> It was brewing for a while. I am surprised that so many apps got b&. I was sure weChat and TikTok were gonna get axed but not others

<comment><USER109> > "b&"

wow!

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> With recent developments, even during covid we can see that trump visit is paying off. And India is officially trump ally.

</comment><comment><USER111> If China can ban websites and apps (for whatever reasons), why can't India?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

</comment><comment><USER112> That's pretty fair seeing that China bans a lot of content/apps/sites that is not produced in China.

</comment><comment><USER113> Are any of you afraid it'll happen to your app? today its China tomorrow it could be another country

<comment><USER114> Any of you afraid that the once unconceivable WWIII is gradually become possible because of the irresponsible politician trying to mitigate their own misconduct/misjudgement by instigating hate and xenophobia.

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> The public health toll of social media will not be fully understood for another 30 years it seems.

People with adolescents and teen daughters please chime in here. The rates of suicide, cutting, and psychological problems are climbing. My wife and I find a charity that offers counseling and therapy to young girls. What is common place now was nearly unheard of in my generation (X).

<comment><USER116> Just because it was "unheard" of didn't mean it wasn't happening in GenX. I don't know if there's a way to ever fully compare them but there are panics that accompany every new medium of communication.

</comment></comment><comment><USER117> Did the ban go through court process or its imposed by ruling party decision ?

</comment><comment><USER118> Finally Chinese companies know the feeling of being banned in another country.

</comment><comment><USER119> How long will it take China to rebrand these apps under a different name ?

</comment><comment><USER110> A one billion market loss

</comment><comment><USER120> What about Chinese phones and their customised Android?

<comment><USER121> Lot of countries are banning Chinese 5G hardware for the same reasons. Trump also issued ban on mobile device makes like ZTE etc for the same reason.

</comment></comment><comment><USER122> InShot is missing.

<comment><USER123> Resso is missing

</comment></comment><comment><USER124> Good on India. They're smarter than we are.

</comment><comment><USER125> I rather look at this from a rational pov then moral grandstand from one soap box or another, since I have no dog in this fight.

My thinking is, this would be a good casus belli for India if they have the national ability to develop home grown alternatives.

If you look at the evolution of the Chinese market, one of the key reasons China was able to develop a vast and independent internet ecosystem was its ability to ban the U.S. based groups such as Youtube, Google, facebook all at select political moments. Had the Chinese never done this, there is no way its domestic eco-system would have developed the way it has. At best foreign firms would own a substantial minority share, instead the Chinese firms like Alibaba and Tencent were able to consolidate monopolistic positions at home and then use that as a base to expand outwards into SEA, India and other developing markets, thereby challenging what would otherwise be a U.S. based monopoly on leading information technology.

From a nation building and state capitalist perspective it was actually quite a smart move. At the time, the western content providers were all banned at one point or another based on individual political reasons (Google hacking, arab spring..etc) and while there were political reasons to do so (censor and control the discourse of Chinese popular opinion) there was vast economic benefits down the road. I am sure the high level thinking in policy making in China recognize this "two birds with one stone" aspect.

I suspect India would like to do something similar. Right now the "foreign barbarians" in India are not the technologically more advance American firms like in China's days in the 90's. It's cash rich and state backed Chinese firms (Alibaba, Tencent, Xiaomi, Douyin, and the like).

So seizing this as a good excuse to maybe not outright ban (we don't know if the TikTok ban won't be reversed at a later time) but even to throttle and restrict them in the domestic Indian market, provided there are domestic alternatives that can built up would be a good move 10-20 years down the road. Or even better, use the opportunity to shake down and force more technology transfer from the Chinese firms in return for market access. India like China has a sufficiently large population and thereby potential domestic market to pursue this strategy.

</comment><comment><USER126> I'm absolutely against banning things but TikTok should be banned until we figure out how to protect ourselves from bad actors like the CCP.

<comment><USER127> I'm not sure that "absolutely" is the right word for you here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER128> I don't see how Chinese apps are somehow bad, while the equivalent American apps are not bad. That's being naive.

</comment><comment><USER129> The US should at least consider banning TikTok for its predatory practices as well as other apps on its level posthaste.

</comment><comment><USER130> Please ban them in US too. WeChat in particular is used to train their censorship AI engine.

</comment><comment><USER131> yeah, block apps when you can't win a war.

</comment><comment><USER132> Your move Apple.

</comment><comment><USER133> The Chinese government moved in martial artists and elite alpine troops to the area. Shortly there after, a number of unarmed Indian soldiers end up dead in the same area.

[https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-sent- marti...](https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-sent-martial- artists-to-india-border-before-deadly-clash-state-media)

This is small potatoes compared to the concentration camps and genocide and ethic cleansing being forced on Tibet and East Turkistan (what CCP calls Xinjiang). Or to the forced harvesting of organs from living political dissidents.

[https://chinatribunal.com/](https://chinatribunal.com/)

What will it take?

<comment><USER32> I read through the tribunal report expecting some sort of evidence, instead it uses guestimates to arrive at numbers for transplant volume then says there's no possible way the organs could've come from volunteers due to that volume. China has 4 times the population of the US, and right about 4 times the amount of transplants claimed in the report.

</comment></comment><comment><USER134> does banning these apps do any good for the Indian Government? It just like taking revenge on Chinese companies rather than china gov.

</comment><comment><USER135> US should've done this months ago.

</comment><comment><USER136> mega censorship!

</comment><comment><USER137> like this kind of bans so I know with Apps are good. haha.

</comment><comment><USER138> god bless

</comment><comment><USER139> Yeah, I'm sure this has nothing to do with them killing Indian soldiers. it's sad how this is more bigger news than that.

</comment><comment> notsag-hn I am really amazed to read so many people talking of chinese companies as the greatest threat for our privacy as opposed to american tech companies, do you guys even read the news or just Trump's Twitter account? This is not about the US or China, they are part of this game but (illegally) harvesting data is a global trend that most likely includes you and the company you're working for. Do you want to change the world? Challenge your boss on the information you collect on your users and the practices you use to facilitate them being tracked instead of fighting China 24/7 on the internet, be smarter than a 20-lines-of-code bot, please.

</comment><comment><USER140> You'd imagine the Chinese communists would be smarter having been in business for 50 years now. But when pushed into a corner on taking the responsibility for the deadly virus, all they can think of is grabbing land and starting wars with their unfortunate neighbors. But better sooner than later. Now you know that when the dragon becomes a super power, it will be nasty, petty, manipulative, bloody, totalitarian & downright ugly. American capitalism propped up CCP. But CCP covets land and power more than money. And they'd rather go to war with their neighbors than accept that they were responsible for the breakout and the spread. The only fault of TikTok, just like that of Huawei and every other Chinese company is that their ultimate masters is the CCP. And yes that's enough reason to ban them.

</comment><comment><USER141> People seem to be missing the point that Chinese Apps are literally spying on their users. iOS just released a patch to keep TikTok from scraping users' clipboards.

</comment><comment><USER142> All other democratic countries should join India in banning Chinese apps

Don't allow Chinese apps until they open their own market to freely allow foreign apps like Google, Facebook, Youtube etc to function

</comment><comment><USER143> I wonder if/how China will use the tiktok data when all these teens are adults.

</comment><comment><USER52> Here in the USA, Android phones with pre-installed Chinese malware and unremovable rootkit (fota/Over-the-air firmware update app) is given out to our most vulnerable citizens and disabled veterans through the government assistance "Lifeline" program.

</comment><comment><USER144> Good.

Free societies should be completely isolated from societies without remotely the same liberties, human rights or sense of ethics.

If you make money off a country because it permits its workers to be enslaved and paid a pittance, you both support the ongoing enslavement AND reward the leaders of that country. This is a devils' tradeoff.

</comment><comment><USER145> I think this is a good move. With China banning apps from other countries, its right for India to do. We should be doing the same thing in the US

</comment><comment><USER146> China moved into Indian territory and has killed 20 Indian soldiers and this is how India is retaliating. The prime minister is not even mentioning China in his speeches or tweets. This has been a disaster for our country.

<comment><USER32> Don't worry, apparently India has "snapped the necks of at least 18 PLA"

[https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/indian-soldiers- merciless...](https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/indian-soldiers-mercilessly- killed-chinese-pla-troops-after-their-co-fell-report)

<comment><USER146> swarajya mag is not a news source. They're blatantly biased.

Also this news is not confirmed. Just speculation which is enough to make the public feel good.

<comment><USER32> This is super late, but if you see this - care to clarify what the bias is?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER147> Considering the recent crisis that's brewing between the two, it's a rational move for India to not let China get more intelligence data so easily.

From a humanitarian point of view, everyone in the world should uninstall these apps as they help collecting data for censorship in China [1].

Also, apart from being a spyware, TikTok is simply a dangerous app which brings much harm to society [2].

[1] - [https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they- watch/](https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/)

[2] - [https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/the-dumb-dangerous- challenges-...](https://nypost.com/2020/02/13/the-dumb-dangerous- challenges-..).

</comment><comment><USER148> This should have been done a long time ago. Chinese services have an unrestricted access to their local user base + users of the whole world, while services from any other countries might easily be blocked in China for one reason or another, thus reducing their potential user base by several hundred million of users. Even without the sinister political reasons behind the censorship by the CCP it would be an unfair competition.

</comment><comment><USER149> Is it me or does this domain fail to resolve via cloudflare?

[user@host tmp]$ nslookup pib.gov.in 22.214.171.124 Server: 22.214.171.124 Address: 220.127.116.11#53

Non-authoritative answer: Name: pib.gov.in Address: 188.8.131.52

[user@host tmp]$ nslookup pib.gov.in 126.96.36.199 Server: 220.127.116.11 Address: 220.127.116.11#53

 __server can 't find pib.gov.in: SERVFAIL

</comment><comment><USER150> Interestingly even before this ban, there has been a movement (at least by armchair critics in Social Media) to uninstall Chinese apps. People started installing this unknown app "Remove china apps" to get rid of the apps that Chinese phone makers like Xiomi does not let you remove.

People started removing Chinese apps not because of national security but because they thought it would stop boosting Chinese economy which in turn will come as defense budget

Bigger question is how do you stop the market penetration of mobiles like Oppo/Vivo/Xiomi etc and all the Startups like Ola/Flipkart which is backed by Chinese investment.

[https://www.indiatvnews.com/technology/news-remove-china- app...](https://www.indiatvnews.com/technology/news-remove-china-apps-removed- from-google-play-store-how-to-install-android-623335)

<comment><USER151> That "Remove China" app was also removed from Google Play: [https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/remove-china-apps- google-...](https://gadgets.ndtv.com/apps/news/remove-china-apps-google-play- android-suspension-2239810)

</comment></comment><comment><USER152> Am I the only one concerned about how TikTok is promoting child pornography by serving as a gateway for young girls and boys to prostitution apps such as OnlyFans?

I think this is a bigger concern than loss of privacy.

Those comparing loss of privacy for Indians on US apps / platforms compared to Chinese apps / platforms, China and India are openly hostile.

US and India are not. This is a big difference.

<comment><USER153> I wouldn't compare onlyfans to prostitution, it's not the same as going out on the street. If anything it's empowering.

<comment><USER152> Not for a 9 yr old.

<comment><USER153> I guess we should ban all adult apps and services. Think of the children.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> From the page: "At the same time, there have been raging concerns on aspects relating to data security and safeguarding the privacy of 130 crore Indians. It has been noted recently that such concerns also pose a threat to sovereignty and security of our country. The Ministry of Information Technology has received many complaints from various sources including several reports about misuse of some mobile apps available on Android and iOS platforms for stealing and surreptitiously transmitting users' data in an unauthorized manner to servers which have locations outside India. The compilation of these data, its mining and profiling by elements hostile to national security and defence of India, which ultimately impinges upon the sovereignty and integrity of India, is a matter of very deep and immediate concern which requires emergency measures."

Thank you, India, for keeping national security first. Hoping it is for the long haul and the decision should not change in a meeting.</comment>


Snowden: Spy agencies 'Screwed All of Us" in hacking crypto keys - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2015/02/snowden-spy-agencies-screwed-us-hacking-crypto-keys/

<comment><USER2> "Our governments … should never be weighing the equities in an intelligence gathering operation such that a temporary benefit to surveillance regarding a few key targets is seen as more desireable than protecting the communications of a global system…"

I think it's a stretch to claim the NSA did this for a "few key targets". Good or bad, it seems casting a wide net, and then filtering the catch seems to be the preferred strategy. Does Snowden offer any proof that this was done to target only a few?</comment>


Ask HN: What makes you go for it? - <AUTHOR>

What makes you decide start a project/start-up/etc?
From idea to implementation...
Do you go for something based on a technical analysis, market research, monetary potential, the start-up "ride", or just because it's fun to build something regardless of the outcome? Do you ever commit to a project knowing that even if you "fail miserably", you will still gain from the experience?
Obviously most people weigh multiple factors, but which carries the most weight in your decision? <comment><USER2> My thought process has evolved over the last few years for deciding what to spend my time on.

I've realized two important things: that I am capable of making a lot of money from my own products, and that there can be important differences between ideas that impact the potential for the former.

I like to build things that improve on past or present solutions, mainly because the market is already there and you aren't pulling teeth to convince people they have a problem you are solving. I also am building products right now in the same space with my current company (simple web development and hosting tools/services).

But when I come up with a new product, it's largely something that I know can be made really simple to start, and then built on over time. If I can ship an MVP or proof of concept in a month or two of 20-40% full-time work I am satisfied. Anything longer than that and I risk making something no one wants.

I also try to learn and be better with every project I do. That means starting with libraries instead of building from scratch, or being more diligent about the architecture. One small example is that I used django-compressor on a recent project instead of hacking that myself. Another is baking referrals and drip email campaigns directly into the MVP instead of pushing this off.

The benefit is that the more you do this the more natural it becomes, to the point where you get higher quality in less time, but I don't dwell on the technical quality too much since your customers generally don't care, so it's a fine line.

At the end of the day though, the new products I've developed have largely been fits of desire to work on something new. Once my co-founder builds a design for it and I implement a simple PoC, the momentum pushes it to become reality.

The difference between what ideas I choose now and what I used to choose is I start looking ahead and see problems or opportunities related to the business model. Things like retention patterns, market potential, etc. I don't measure or predict these things with numbers because I think that's a waste of time, but since I've had experience with those issues, I can get a better feel for them before I start to work on a project.

Also, now that I've achieved and surpassed my initial desire to build my own company and hire a few people, my ambition is pushing me towards achieving bigger milestones. Some ideas are harder to grow than others.

<comment><USER3> What does MVP mean in this context? Obviously it's related to a PoC, but I can't really find any acronym that fits the context...

<comment><USER4> MVP stands for Minimum Viable Product.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The Project: I am starting a company (just myself) to produce mobile phone apps (iOS to start)

The Motivation:

1) I hate commuting, I hate not having an office with a door, I hate having to work on a schedule, I hate having to follow someone else's orders.

2) I don't enjoy writing code, even though I'm very good at it. It's exhausting, and it drains me.

3) I enjoy researching/analyzing potential markets.

4) I enjoy documenting the idea, capturing the product story, rationale for design choices, screen mock-ups, use-case diagrams...

5) I enjoy talking with customers.

6) I enjoy thinking about how to market a product. As it is just as if not more important than creating a great product.

7) I can't stand the boring life of a steady paycheck and limited upside, I crave and seek out high risk/high payoff endeavors. (0.2% equity at someone else's start-up? Do I look naive? Do I look that stupid?)

8) I'm the boss, 'I am the decider' (I'd rather make 30k a year as the boss than 150k a year as somebody's bitch)

9) I would rather work hard for a couple of years to create a recurring revenue stream, than work leisurely and be stuck working for the next 30+ years.

10) Freedom, especially time is more important to me than possessions. A small home, in a small town that is cheap is far more valuable to me as I will then have money to travel and pursue my interests and hobbies. (That's right, I'm leaving you California at the end of this month. NO MORE STATE INCOME TAX :) NO MORE RIDICULOUS COST OF LIVING. NO MORE CARRYING FREELOADERS WITH MY HIGH TAX PAYMENTS (18k just to CA last year just for income tax) )

The Product:

1) I decided to pursue my current product when I searched for it on the App store. The existing apps just suck, horrible interfaces, horrible computer AI (I noticed most of the AI cheats, and is predictable) and no multiplayer, this game is much more fun when you play with and against other people.

2) I researched the market, there are at least 5 million people in the U.S. that play this game regularly.

3) I researched how best to monetize the app, in game ads with the ability to purchase credits to play without ads (why limit the revenue to one pathetic $.99 sale? recurring revenue from the same customer is the ONLY way to make real money)

4) While my competitors quickly whipped up and shipped a very poor product, I will ship a polished well thought out user interface. I will steal their 'customers' and dominate this market.

The Fallout:

1) Even if the product fails, I will and in fact have already learned far more than I did in the last 14 years of being someone else's employee.

2) I feel much better being a doer rather than a talker. I got tired of sitting around talking with other salary slaves about how I was going to do something 'someday'. I'm doing it, and 10 years later they are still talking about it.

3) The IP and server infrastructure I'm building has the high potential for reuse and may even be a product that I can sell to other companies that are interested in multiplayer or even capturing app use metrics and allowing for real time ad configuration.

4) I'm putting my money where my mouth is, instead of sitting around talking about how stupid the managers are, the company executives are; I'm focusing instead on making all the decisions to make my company an enviable success.

5) I have 2 years more of 'runway', if it fails I will be far more marketable. I'll no longer be pigeon holed as just a 'software manager/engineer'. I will be executive material. And if not, I will just bag groceries or serve people at a drive-through, because quite frankly I've had it as being a 'programmer'.

What carries the most weight in my decision? I can't work for someone else anymore, I won't work for someone else anymore. I can only operate in an environment where 'I' have customers.

<comment><USER6> Which state are you moving to? Washington?

<comment><USER5> I'm moving to the Nevada side of Lake Tahoe.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Starting isn't the hard bit, I've started 50+ projects, I've finished hardly any of them, not including client work, that's my job, so it's easier to finish.

What's different with a project that's mine is I go all gusto for a while, get a half MVP up and kinda lose the will to carry on. The problem is I have too many ideas and don't stick with my own things to see them through.

I'd probably be more successful if I hired someone else to build it, and get client work myself to pay for it.

<comment><USER8> Hey Tam, I'm exactly the same. Maybe we can form a support group for such people (i'm serious)?

<comment><USER9> Although I'm not in exactly the same boat (i.e. I do finish projects but I'm slow), I'd love to be a member of such a group: a mutual accountability forum or weekly lab-meeting where everyone declares what they've done this week.

I know that the Micropreneur Academy has such a forum as one of the attractions, but I think it can be open and free for anyone who's not too worried about their ideas getting pinched (speaking for myself, I wouldn't be worried).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've known that programming/CS education is often broken since I had to tutor several (very smart) friends who had a hard time with CS1, which served as their introduction to programming.

There are better CS1 professors to be sure, but I imagine a lot of the problems they encountered were common throughout most people's first experience with trying to learn programming. There was a lot of assumed knowledge, and the students who had prior experience left feeling it was just as mysterious as when they started.

This bothers the hell out of me, because I think these people would enjoy programming a lot more if their first experience was better, and I wonder what I would think of programming if CS1 was my first experience.

I had the good fortune to learn by myself long before college. I think I know why it was easy for me, and I was finally able to articulate it only recently. I talk about it here[1] and explain what I hope to do.

The short version is that I'm going to make a series of Bob Ross-style JavaScript tutorial videos. I think that its a great time to learn programming, since every person with a modern browser installed has everything they need to begin learning (the developer console is an absolutely amazing place to start, and the first tutorials will focus on nothing but working inside of it).

I had considered taking some time off work to do this full time, update the MDN, and hold office hours in StackOverflow chat. Be like a "monk of the web." That's not totally feasible right now, so its taken up status as a side project, though it means that producing the videos will take some time.

So no technical analysis, market research, or monetary potential. I just want to make resources to help people. That's what makes me "go for it". Sometime during StackOverflow I realized that the people I'm helping are the only encouragement I need. [http://i.imgur.com/POZmt.png](http://i.imgur.com/POZmt.png)

[1] [http://simonsarris.com/blog/696-the-importance-of- geocities](http://simonsarris.com/blog/696-the-importance-of-geocities)

<comment><USER11> If you can't personally run "office hours," but still see the value in them, have you considered finding some "Teacher's Assistants" with motivations similar to yours to help out? I'm only one year into my formal CS education, but I think even I could handle intro programming questions. I'm sure there are more people out there who would want to help.

Just a thought! Good luck with the project!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> For me, it's a combination of passion, freedom, and potential.

'Going for it' is probably the most liberating thing you can do.

The path to implementation stems from a desire to leave a mark on the world and to create a positive net benefit for others. Not just to spin thoughts in your head, but to go out there and make something that has never been created. You may create something similar to things already out there, but your creation is yours.

This doesn't particularly mean your creation is about you, or for your own personal benefit... it means that you have contributed to the big pool of creativity.

You have shared something that may inspire another person to create... and this is the biggest gift of all (IMHO).

Action feels incredible regardless if it 'fails' or succeeds. Market research, monetary potential, and other factors can be vital to your success, but I say don't let these things slow you down in making something happen.

</comment><comment><USER13> Yes, starting a project is easy and even finishing a prototype is easy. But if you take the project or product real seriously and need to go for beta and production, quality is the number one concern. If the users first time hit your website and found it's easy broken, probably they will never come back, even if it becomes much better later.

So I've got a very critical question for typically how long it may take from a prototype to beta for most of the start up companies, see my link here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6004383](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6004383)

and I'd like to discuss further in detail on each major tasks which must go through. Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER14> For me, a lot of my side projects are either the result of realizing a tool I'd like to use doesn't currently exist, or something I get excited about while throwing ideas around with friends. The latter typically leads to silly web games or programmatic jokes more often than actually useful things, but I enjoy the creativity that comes with that even if it's unlikely to go anywhere.

I'd rather build for the short-term and if something gains traction, start thinking more long-term, but I'm sure there's other people who really enjoy planning out large projects and implementing them.

The first 80% of the work is the fun part, and sometimes I have to pressure myself to do the last 20%.

<comment><USER15> This, really. Most of the time you're building something because it doesn't exist already and you have the skill to do it. There are plenty of things that don't exist that really should - and it's bizarre that they don't.

The other option is to save money. Frequently I think about whether I should buy expensive widget X to do what I want. Then I wonder how I could build it myself for less (same with software, but usually finding an open source solution).

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Purely for the joy of software engineering.

</comment><comment><USER17> I write a lot of mobile apps. I come across an app that I think needs improving, or one that I want and don't want to pay for. I think about what I could do to improve it, and if it is possible for me to do, then I write it up.

I have gotten very quick at creating MVP, and once you are used to the IDE and libraries, you can build quite sophisticated stuff very quickly.

I got an iPad mini about 6 months ago, and love it, so have been producing a lot of apps that make use of this fantastic device.

<comment><USER18> How is your revenue? I just started iOS development and I finish my full time contract at the end of August at which point I will work on my own mobile iOS crafts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> For me personally, it's simply that I love the process of building software and I get a lot of satisfaction from it. As long as it's a challenge, I'm not too worried about whether anyone uses it, or whether I make money.

Increasingly, I have found that it would be nice to earn some money back from side projects I work on, so that might play some role in how I go about choosing projects in the future.

</comment><comment><USER20> Go through lean canvas process, refine, and once it's okay, try it out. If you fail, whoops. Try again. Hopefully you didn't burn that much time.

It's like shooting in the dark. Once in awhile, you'll hit something. Hopefully it's a bear.

</comment><comment><USER21> Multiple factors need to be present for me: Fun to build, satisfies a need, currently ignored market (also part of satisfying a need), has personal import for me of some kind, will eventually in theory allow me to earn at least a living off of it.

</comment><comment><USER18> Because its fucking fun. Every day is like playing with legos, just slightly more advanced with more troubleshooting! But honestly, I ask myself whether I would use this product and it's a solid YES, I go with it.</comment>


Email to A-List VC sent regarding Jon Crawford/Storenvy.com - <AUTHOR>

I was forwarded this email a little bit ago. I wanted to share it with the Hacker News community:
I was reading the article Jon Crawford of Storenvy.com wrote and posted to the Ycombinator website. Can be found here - http://joncrawford.com/how-i-got-kicked-out-of-y-combinator-and-rais
I checked out his business at storenvy and was alarmed and disturbed by what I saw. I only looked at a few pages, but their are many to go thru. I am not an attorney, but i think this may not be an acceptable use of Disney images:
Racism, Antisemitism and bigotry and what appears to be infringement against Disney.
Mickey Mouse made to look like Hitler on a swastika: http://www.storenvy.com/products/59223-dickies-official-fan-club-shirt
Niggabear?? http://www.storenvy.com/products/59357-niggabear
Nazi bird: http://lovelessapparel.storenvy.com/products/1111-revolt
I am having a hard time believing how such A-List investors can be affiliated with this kind of company. One can make an argument that the items in question are posted by users and not the views of Storevny. However, does storenvy not monitor the items on it's website?
Also, one of the  brands, Loveless Apparel, is based in Orlando, Florida. Isn't this where Jon's original tshirt printing business, Threadbird.com, is from? Doesn't Threadbird.com print tshirts for Storenvy customers? If that is the case, then can't one assume that Threadbird.com knew exactly what they were printing and allowed it? Then allowed it to be offered it for sale on Storenvy?  If these assumptions are true, then I think there is a problem here. Free speech doesn't give people the right to distribute or market Antisemitism and use an American icon like Mickey Mouse to do so.
Why do I care? I did not like they way Mr. Crawford tried to subtly insult the Ycombinator team and belittle them. In addition, the tshirts in question are extremely offensive to me and my grandparents. Don't shoot the messenger.
Thank you. <comment>----
Looks like the above referenced shirts have now been removed. Cached pages are below.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yo1RYEz1zyMJ:www.storenvy.com/products/59223-dickies-official-fan-club-shirt+http://www.storenvy.com/products/59223-dickies-official-fan-club-shirt&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mjZroUvpXHkJ:www.storenvy.com/products/59357-niggabear+http://www.storenvy.com/products/59357-niggabear&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SqCpz3yAGHEJ:lovelessapparel.storenvy.com/products/1111-revolt+http://lovelessapparel.storenvy.com/products/1111-revolt&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com </comment><comment><USER2> Freedom of speech is about protecting offensive speech, because nobody ever tries to ban the other kind.

He says don't shoot the messenger, while doing exactly that.

As it happens the Mickey Mouse t-shirt far from being Anti-Semitic is actually attacking Disney for Walt Disney's anti-semitic associations. This is a popular theme for parody even in mainstream TV shows like Family Guy.</comment>


Innovative new Email-Client - <AUTHOR> http://blog.yorba.org/laura/2012/05/geary-0-1-released.html <comment><USER2> How is this innovative? It's an Apple Mail clone with only super basic functionality.

</comment><comment><USER3> Or Postbox for that matter.</comment>