Ask HN: I built it, "they" didn't come... - <AUTHOR> I've been in the "build->launch->move to next project" loop for some time.
My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products. Some of the finished projects gone live, tried to sell some,
some are rotting in the attic.
I lack visual design skills, but yet trying to do my best to provide a usable UI for
the products. One of my motives in building a product against my lack of visual skills
is knowing that "they started as crap too". For example reddit was just a very simple
listing full with porn links, stumbleupon was just a "what is this" page for a few years,
twitter was and still is damn slow, broken and overbloated and there are many more.. Other than reddit, others was most probably the first at doing what they do. There
were no similar products, but they got it up and running and people easily adopted.
When i ask about feedbacks about my products, mostly i get "i didn't understand which
problem you are solving". I even deployed a localized copy of cnprog as a forum on
women's issues, to see if it was me doing it wrong in designing. I got the following
feedback several times: "it's too complicated,  there's no order, no title in threads,
other forums(phpbb style) are better ". WTF?
These people are on facebook 24/7, uploading gazillions of photos, messaging their friends each second. They know what tagging is, and still a stackoverflow clone is too complicated?
Anyway, what i wonder is, what happened to people that got it  the first time
when they saw reddit, stumbleupon and said "yeah i'll use it". Were internet users back
in late 90's , ealy 2000's much more sophisticated people? What has changed since then, and people became website gourmets to say that "you should tell what this site is about
on the first page. i don't understand that your site is a listing site by just looking at the listing on the goddamn first page. that's why i decided that i won't use it at the very first second
i stumbled onto your site"? Sigh..
Have "they" gone forever, and will never come back again?
Edit: Thanks for all the fantastic comments, i didn't expect to get many insightful ideas and suggestions. There are some points i guess i need to make myself clear:
- WTF -> these people can use the applications i can not even cope with, how can they find a 2-3 step forum complex ? details: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1838852
- I've tried opening jobs on amazon, asking communities for feedbacks, paying google ads, using stumbleupon ads, posting to startup listings. lastly using feedbackroulette :) by the way fr is just great.
- details about a few of the stuff i've done http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1838805 <comment><USER5> _My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products._

This is your first problem. First, _features do not sell software_. If there were a Ten Commandments of customer acquisition in the Internet age that would be #2 right after "Google is your god, you shall have no others." People use software and use websites because of the benefit that you credibly propose to bring to their lives through use of the software. Ironically, your users are even telling you this, which is fantastic because most of the time they _don't_ have accurate insight into why your site doesn't do it for them. (Incidentally, "I don't know what problem you're solving" really means "I don't know what problem THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE will get better instantly if I sign up for this.")

StackOverflow is _incredibly_ more complicated than Facebook is. You need an accurate mental model of how the game works in order to play it. (Seeing answers is easier, of course.) There is a reason Joel and company try to seed new Stack Overflow sites with people who have used one of the pre-existing ones. (That also helps solve the chicken and egg problem, which I suspect your sites are likely suffering from in a severe fashion.)

Early adopters are a quirky bunch. One of their problems is that other people are cooler than they are because those people have technology that they haven't used yet. Another of their problems is that the software they previously liked is now lame because even their mother uses it. Most people do not have these problems.

Talk to people. Find out what their pains, fears, frustrations are. This is _not hard_ \-- most people _love_ to talk about what they hate about their life, jobs, etc. Identify problems which are tractable with software. Develop the smallest possible thing that shows the vision of a solution. See if it 'clicks' with people. If it clicks, you know you have a viable idea for a product. If not, development is generally expensive guessing.

P.S. Translation from user into English: "It's too complicated" => "I am insufficiently invested in this to do the work that it looks like it is going to take to extract the unknown amount of value I may get out." There are a number of solutions: simplification, hiding the complexity, easing the users into the complexity, and _demonstrating higher value_. Your user can play effing _bridge_ , she is clearly capable of understanding complex systems when the spirit moves her.

<comment><USER6> Good comment, but what makes you believe StackOverflow is "incredibly more complicated" than Facebook?

<comment><USER7> StackOverflow:

* Posting a question: I go to the site, click on "Ask," and post my question.

* Searching for answers: I go to the site, type in my search, and search.

Facebook:

* Posting a photo: I go to the site and look for a camera icon. I can't find one, so I start clicking on stuff like "Account", "Home" and "Profile". Still nothing. I start clicking on everything that isn't a friend's wall post. Eventually I hit "More" on my list of apps (the fully-expanded list still doesn't take up the entire height of my screen), and see "Photos". I look for an upload button and see nothing. In the upper right corner, in 10pt font, I eventually find "My Albums." I click there and search for an upload button. Nothing. I click "Create album," and finally get to an upload prompt.

* Changing a privacy setting: I see a post on Hacker News about some new Facebook feature, and of course, the default is "Everyone in the world can see everything that this feature involves, even if it's something you locked down for every other feature." No one has posted a reply explaining how to lock it down yet, but it's Facebook, right? How hard could it be? I go to Facebook and click "Privacy Settings." Honestly, they change the layout every few months, so I have no idea what it looks like now, and I don't remember what it looked like last time, but every single time, I have to re-learn the entire model and it takes forever and half the time I don't even find what I'm looking for.

* Take a quiz: See a quiz on a friend's wall. Click on the app name. Click on "Take Quiz." Get a popup saying "Let this app access your profile: [Click Here]." Close tab.

<comment><USER8> From now on, I'm using your method to post photos. Usually takes me twice as many steps as that.

<comment><USER9> It's actually much easier than you guys think. To post a photo on facebook:

\- click once in the "what's on your mind box"

\- click on the "attach photo" icon

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I have learnt a lot on HN over the last years. But after a point I have realized that following the actual good advices and trends will not help me, because everybody will follow those advices/trends so that I will always be competing in an oversaturated market: most likely I will fail.

I've realized that I can bravely bet against at least some of the trends. Based on my built things and their failures I started to find out the things which are overrated. In my opinion webapps are overrated, internet consumer market is overrated (or at least too risky for small startups), mobile apps are overrated (kind of a 'trash market' a bit), Javascript is overrated, importance of graphical design is overrated, simplicity and usability is overrated (I mean if you are talented, you can get it right quite easily, but you will never be able to create a business just because of simplicity, usability, etc...)

What things are not overrated?

\- 'Build what people pay a lot for'

\- At least partially solve really-really painful, fustrating, important problems of not only natural persons but also (mostly) companies.

\- The enterprise market is very very important. Big companies are not sexy, but they pay a lot for software if they need software.

\- Jack of all trade-ness is overrated. I try to gain experience in at least one or two really hard topics, which few people know.

I will see how it turns out. I never say never though. I try to be flexible; and act upon opportunities. Felxibility is not overrated.

<comment><USER11> Nice points!

I think enterprise is not an easy market to enter. Enterprises are very shy of giving projects to startups and also you need to spend a few years fixing enterprise problems to build good solutions.

Another problem is that companies tend to take a long time and to make a decision hence lot of time and money gets blocked in the sales process...

I am writing this based on experience. I am trying to push the model but not too successful yet!

\- Rushabh

ERPNext.com

<comment><USER10> Yes I understand that it is not easy. But I think that the consumer market is also very hard. The problem is that consumers don't really have too much important problems which can be solved by software. I mean they have some, but those fields are very saturated and/or hardly monetizable. Most of them are solved by really big companies like Google and Facebook. I think the b2b market is more diverse, there are more monetizable problems to be solved. On the other hand it is harder to know what companies want. Mostly you cannot just ask your friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> "I've been in the "build->launch->move to next project" loop for some time."

You seemed to have missed the "guilt everyone you know into using your product" phase. I've met very few startup founders that didn't fight tooth- and-nail for every single early user. You have to do whatever it takes to get those users on board. It won't be scalable, but you can worry about scaling user acquisition later, after you've gotten some feedback.

</comment><comment><USER13> You need to accurately identify a "problem that needs to be solved" in a niche that is not crowded.

Nowadays, things need to look great. Some people partner or pay for programmers, you need to partner with or pay for good design. Don't skimp.

Every single chance you have in your product, convey the problem that you are solving, how you are solving it and importantly who you are solving it for. Look at 37Signals as an example. I think they spend 25% - 50% of their time thinking about the message they are conveying throughout their product - <USER2> just through their marketing sites.

Never (never, never, never) expect people to use your product or service. Get the word out fast, hard and often. Unless you get lucky (never count on luck), this will cost you money in one form or another. The amount of money you'll need to spend directly relates to the competition in the niche you are operating in.

Listen and pivot. When your customers / users tell you something, listen to them. Don't assume that you're the smartest guy in the world and "know what they want before they want it". Listen and even if you don't believe in it, try moving in the direction that your customers / users want. If income increases, pivot your business or entire model in that direction.

Never (ever) get married to an idea and remember that business is about making money.

Don't judge yourself against others. Every business, every person, every circumstance is unique. Constantly review your product or service but evaluate it against your own metrics. Don't ignore what others are doing, but if your product is successful earning $25k per year, it is successful.

Keep your chin up and do not give up. It sounds cliche, but the worst mistake someone can make is to give in to the part of themselves that drags them down. If something isn't working, change it and be happy, excited and motivated to make yet another change in a long line of changes.

</comment><comment><USER14> Look at Apple. So many competitors have sprung up based on features that are missing in the existing products. Apple still win the consumers.

It's more than adding features to a product.

I suspect Facebook is easy to use because people can see the benefit in learning how to use it. They can see how tagging an image is a cool thing, so they'll make the effort. If they can't immediately see how upvoting a question is a cool thing, they won't bother to understand how to use it.

</comment><comment><USER15> First off, your user is not you. ;) Something that's instantaneously understandable, and clearly better to you (tagging) isn't necessarily so for others (apart from "multiple categories per item", I still don't get why everyone loves tags).

Obviously you can get quality feedback. Iterate on that. If it's not clear what problem you are solving, you just _tell them_. There's no shame in writing "This is a listings page, add a listing HERE" in 80px black bold Arial on top of the page, if it makes people use it ;)

As long as people can find you on search engines, they will come. But from there on, you have to guide them to use your service instead of expecting them to do all the work.

<comment><USER16> This. The most important part of any project I've been involved with has been showing it to other people. You can see how they are going to try to use the product and what you might be missing. Even more so, I've had people I show it to come up with better tag lines and branding than I ever could have myself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> _My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products._

Actually, that's not too far off from a suggestion Paul Graham made at the first Startup School a few years ago, in his "Ideas for Startups" speech (<http://paulgraham.com/ideas.html>):

 _One way to make something people want is to look at stuff people use now that's broken._

There's a big difference, though, between _missing_ or _misimplemented_ and _broken_.

If it's misimplemented, but basically does what I need it to do, then I'm not as open to an alternative.

If it's broken, then I'll seek out another product or a third-party plugin.

</comment><comment><USER18> It sounds like you think your users are stupid. They gave you specific feedback and WTF comes across as you being annoyed, instead of glad to get the feedback.

Stackoverflow is targeted at geeks- if you're cloning their design, you need to clone the target audience as well. .net development != women's issues.

<comment><AUTHOR> absolutely not! i can not use office programs, and i can not even manage to get a photo gallery going in facebook. 3 profiles i've created are still laying empty.

what i mean by wtf is, these people can do and interact with applications that i can not keep up with, and still find my applications, or the applications that i find interesting "to be complicated".

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Focus on the SMALLEST problem you are solving. People don't join facebook to upload gazillions of photos, or message their friends each second. They join because they need a way to contact people without tracking down email addresses. Then they upload a photo because it's kinda cool, then they get hooked on the ecosystem. But that comes later. DON'T SELL THE ECOSYSTEM TO NEW USERS. Sell a small solution (which doesn't have to be anything too special), then let them scale their behavior up. The ecosystem is what makes you rich, but it's not what get's the first few logins. The whole ecosystem just confuses new users.

Oh, and remember, there are lots of people who don't even know what a URL is. SO worked because lots of JoS / Coding horror readers trusted it enough. They also know what tagging is - most of your readers are more familiar with phpbb style indexes. Nobody looks at the tag cloud unless they have already know what they are looking for.

</comment><comment><USER20> Well, short of the rapture, stray quantum string (TNG reference +1), or the great luddite awakening, chances are "they" are still out "there" in the physical/individual sense. Sounds like you're not going "there".

Think about the products that "go viral". I think there is an increasing trend for these to have roots in the real world. Twitter didn't succeed until real people in the real world met in a real bar at a real conference and really talked about it. I didn't start using it until a real person I knew was talking to me at a real place after going to SXSW. Same story on Facebook. Real people in my real world had a real conversation with me about it.

My advice - make your product opaque. I know it's 2010, but your product needs to be "real" for "them". Find some target end users, get them using it, and enable them to broadcast their use/enjoyment/etc.

</comment><comment><USER21> What problems _are_ your products trying to solve?

Why don't you list a few here, and maybe we can help you refine your pitch.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well i didn't intend to gain attention to advertise my projects, but uhm.. :)

one i'm lately struggling with is visitrs.com, i've posted it a few times before, did not get much response, ones i get was helpful though.It has started as a pluggible chat system which allowed visitors of any website to chat with eachother. It would provide interaction between visitors, would create a community around the website, would help people discuss or suggest products, articles on the website boosting content awareness of the website. for example on ebay, one could have easily ask opinions of other visitors about a product to be bought.. anyway did not gain attention, so i changed it into a stumbleupon+delicious+live chat system. still truggling with it.

one was a real time sql multiplier proxy. problems with production servers back then 2006-2008 was - and most probably still is- backups, cloning on the fly, active-active clustering etc. one would have to stop the working system to backup or clone the datas in sql servers, and active-active clustering were painful or too expensive. I made a working demo based on postgresql + spread real time mesaging toolkit, which was acting like a proxy between sql servers and web applications. when a web application made a query, it was multiplied and sent to all servers in exact same order, which would allow real time cloning + backing up + active-active clustering in once. Though demo was sufficient for simple ops, it needed transaction system implemented, which was really not a big deal. Couldn't sell it. the companies that were paying zillons to big players, or spending thousands of man/day operations did not get what i was solving.

another one that is still on production line is a job listing system, which will get rid of "send cv - wait for response" and "read zillions of cvs, call hundreds of persons just to hire 1" problems. it's a social marketplace for job seekers and hirers simply. i'm not over it yet, but the feedbacks about it is not giving happines yet. addres is test.cbslab.com if anyone interested.

there are many more in the attic, maybe they'll help me when there'll be enough amount of abondoned ones to give up my carreer and become a farmer :)

<comment><USER22> A few experiences with visitrs.

The first 5 seconds of looking at your page filled my head with 'This is just a page of shit that I'm not interested in'. It was not clear that I can participate in creating the list. your join now button is virtually invisible to passing users.

I have to click an 'about' page to find out what the site does. this is way too much effort. this needs to be splashed all over the front page.

Once I understand what it is, it's not as good as my existing bookmarking sites. Struggling to see where the USP is.

My gut feeling is that you might be able to get it to work if you work in the niches - people into baking would rather join a dedicated cake site than something that is as general as this. Buy 10 niche domain names and work in the communities they target. Makes SEO a damn site easier too.

Hope this helps!

<comment><AUTHOR> I've heard the second sentence a millions times :)

maybe it won't make it, but the best part of it is i got many feedbacks including yours that'll help me in the future.

also i learnt much about erlang, ejabberd, mongodb, js frameworks, xapian etc. not that much of loss i guess :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I built <http://isshort.com> because I wanted to promote healthy link shortening, and created an API so that Twitter clients can use it. I promoted it on reddit, HN, techstartu.ps, Quora (in response to a question) and by emailing the people who were an inspiration for it (simon wilson, the people responsible for rev=canonical and rel=shortlink).

I've been completely unable to gain traction for isshort.com, with 43 visits to the site in about 5 days.

<comment><USER24> Let me give you some feedback for isshort.com.

1\. The landing page does not tell what the service is for and who is it for.

On the first look, it looks like just another URL shortener - but why would I use it over something like 3.ly or j.mp?

2\. I tried to read the explanation but bored out. I don't care what "healthy link shortening" is or what rev="canonical" does. The blog post is longwinded and filled with jargon and terms I don't understand. "Publisher"? Am I a "publisher"? Do I want to be? What is the target audience? Am I in the target audience? It's difficult to find out.

3\. I put in "google.com" and out comes INVALID_URI.

4\. Not having a "Submit" button feels somehow awkward. I'm not sure what I should do in order to shorten the URL. I eventually discovered that pressing Enter and clicking on the "isn't short" text works, but I'd feel better with a "Submit" button.

<comment><USER25> Amen to all of that. I didn't know until I tried it with an unsupported host that it would turn around and provide a j.mp short URL, which is great, but non-obvious. Until then, I'm wondering why I'd want to use a link shortener with a seven-letter TLD.

It's a serious mistake to disallow shortening TLDs like "google.com", because that's what people are likely to type in to test the service. It's deadly to ever let a user see a hostile, wholly uninformative error message like "INVALID_URI".

Owing to unnecessary ajax and a submit button which doesn't reflect presses, if I fail with google.com and then try yahoo.com, there's no indication that the site has received or acted on my second attempt.

Labeling your only button with an image, in an oddball font, using text that's both passive voice and a negative statement, is not OK, as you implicitly acknowledge in the introductory blog post, when you have to tell your potential users which piece of screen real-estate to click.

I knew what rev=canonical and friends were, and even I didn't have any idea what the phrase "healthy link shortening" meant to you. I thought it might have been a point about not relying on the Libyan government. The introductory blog post isn't doing its job. The list of sites with their own shorteners should be on the front page, and should be longer — that's how you connect the site's value with potential users.

The service itself is useful, though I'd most like to see it incorporated into Twitter clients like Hibari, which use bit.ly for everything. Evangelizing an API is harder. Good luck.

<comment><USER23> Yeah, the API is the product. The website is a demo.

I will work on explaining this a bit better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> When you look at how apple has succeed, it's the way of the future. They didn't provide any new functionality that wasn't on mobile devices before. They just made it simple, it's the new paradigm, design is now more important than functionality.

I'm am not an apple fan, mind you, I am an Android dev who built a podcasting app - and most of the complaints I get are "I can't figure it out" and "why is it so complicated". It _is_ overloaded with features and some appreciate it, but some don't.

The way I think of it, is that life is frustrating at times, and people will go to great lengths to avoid that feeling of frustration. Software might do a lot but if it not quick to use then its pretty well useless. In time gone by, how many man hours been wasted trying to find that elusive checkbox in windows to fix a certain small problem.

Simplicity is the most important thing, people want life to be simple - <USER3> can't it be simple !!! That's why apple is making billions.

There is always an element of randomness though. To some people a design (e.g. my podcasting app) will seem logical, but to others it will be a frustrating mess. I am happy to have a set of users who are fairly tech capable. but I do constantly receive a hail of abuse from the less capable who really want to use it, but cant figure it out. Some people actively resent the fact that I have made them feel stupid (Saying exactly "I am not stupid", had that exact phrase about 30 times I think).

Sometimes I think 3 interfaces to a product are necessary, "simple"(only basic stuff), "cool" (medium), and "super"(everything). Different people like different things.

</comment><comment><USER27> problems I see with what you've said:

 _> >I've been in the "build->launch->move to next project" loop for some time._

From my experience making a few apps, launching is just the first step, not the last. People will care about products you care about. If you're just building stuff to throw out onto the internetz and hope a few randos latch on... well, that's exactly what you'll get. If you want dedicated users who keep coming back, you'll have to steadily improve your projects, and nurture them into full-fledged awesome products. There are no shortcuts, what you put in is what you get out (usually).

Also, the original idea is almost never perfect. Products evolve over time, flickr didn't start as a photo site. Listen to you customers, but not too much, find the problems that REALLY need solving. Like Henry Ford said, "if I listened to the customers, I would have made a faster horse." What he really means that the customers wanted faster transportation, not necessarily a horse. You need that insight to see what the core problems are, and solve them in novel ways.

 _> >I lack visual design skills, but yet trying to do my best to provide a usable UI for the products. One of my motives in building a product against my lack of visual skills is knowing that "they started as crap too"._

That is not good enough. Knowing you suck at UX is a good start. But justifying it by calling out reddit, twitter, and stumbleupon? That's just naive. You want to know what made them succeed? THEY GOT BETTER. They didn't sit on their ass saying "well, those other guys suck, so I can too." No, they were the ones saying "I'll endlessly strive to make my product better every single day."

Software adopts the personality of the developer(s). Users can tell when the developer actually loves and cares about something enough to follow through with good support and updates. Similarly, users want software that gets to the _core_ of their problems, not just shallow complaints, which brings me to my next point:

 _> >My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products._

Do NOT base your software on a feature. Features are shallow, like breast implants. Build VISION and PERSONALITY into your software, and people will love you even if you're flat-chested. Again, this goes back to UX/UI and taking care of your product and helping it evolve a personality AFTER launch.

<comment><USER28> > Features are shallow, like breast implants. Build VISION and PERSONALITY > into your software, and people will love you even if you're flat-chested.

Just wanted to make sure no one glossed over that gem. Great quote.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Me too. I blogged about it the other day, in a fashion: [http://www.adrianoconnor.net/2010/10/the-bad-news-about- your...](http://www.adrianoconnor.net/2010/10/the-bad-news-about-your-amazing- product-you-still-need-to-do-marketing/)

I believe there are two highly valuable skills you need to run a successful business: 1. The ability to create amazing products (either yourself or through motivating others) and 2. Ability to get your message out and get people interested.

I fail badly at #2. I guess I need to find a partner who is naturally magnetic and can sell dreams to people. The thing is, once you're over that hump you'll get momentum -- you can ask for feedback, you can engage with those people, and, hopefully, they'll hep you spread the word. Alternatively, you can throw ad-dollars at it and work on the conversion rate, but advertising is mostly owned by people with lots of money so you'll drown before you manage to even start swimming.

</comment><comment><USER30> "they" usually don't come.

<comment><USER31> Well said. Very few people hit it out of the park the first time. You have to try, try, and try again, without ever having any more chance of success per given try no matter how many times you do. This is something too few have really wrapped their heads around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> We had someone talking about a similar situation a few days ago. Being able to produce a product is nice but it won't sell itself by merely existing. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" If you release a product and no one knows will anyone buy it?

</comment><comment><USER33> On this point: "it's too complicated, there's no order"

An important element of useablility that is often ignored and misunderstood is familarity. In many ways it just does not matter that MSWindows or Facebook is clunky, or violates important useability or is just wrong or broken. When the environment hits a critial mass of familarity the only way to co-exist with an entrenched community is compatibility. As galling as it is to use a windows file picker look & feel, it's what folks are familar. Changing the visual paradigms does happen (review the history of the web) but fairly quicky a new normalicy (see web pulldown bars) gets established. Show some examples and/or look for a design partner.

</comment><comment><USER34> First, I'm 100% convinced that design does not sell the product. It some instances it is very important, but in other instances it is not.

I'm using many confusing and ugly products but since they solve my problem, I use them (all HA software product on market, etc.).

I believe the key to solve something people really need. Hey I still have problems how to do code reviews (for cheap - like $10 per seat) - <USER4> like google wave but code reviews.

Now, there is also problem how to get your message out and get people interested (since they might not know they have a problem you are solving). I was told to watch infomercials on TV and try to make something like that on your home page, blogs, forums...

</comment><comment><USER35> "And admit that the waters around you have grown, and accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth savin', then you better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone, for the times they are a-changin'."

</comment><comment><USER36> You seem to have a pretty good idea of your own shortcomings — which is a good sign imo, nobody can or should be good at everything — so why not play to your strengths and partner with someone else for the design work?

I've been doing small self-generated projects with 1-2 partners for years. One of them is gaining traction and about to take off in a big way (I hope). I never would have got to this stage on my own.

Note that having a partner isn't the same as selling out, or developing a project with an overmanaged 12-person team, etc. It's pretty much the same as going it alone but with a friend to bounce shit off of.

</comment><comment><USER37> Those specific users may be gone forever. But there are always more users, and there are always more markets. Don't worry too much about it. And I wouldn't worry about your visual design skills either. As you pointed out, the internet is littered with ugly but successful sites.

I do, however, recommend that you worry about that pesky "i didn't understand which problem you are solving" issue.

My advice would be to shut down your computer and talk to your friends and family. Go to dinner. Tag along with them in the grocery store. Even better... do something with them that you enjoy. And then listen to what's going on in their lives. What challenges are they facing? What challenges are you facing?

Start making a list of these things. You don't even have to write them down, but make mental notes of the things people struggle with. Every time you come across a challenge, think "could a computer help with this problem?" If the answer is yes, then think "how hard would it be to engineer?" If the answer is "not too hard for me to knock out a prototype in a week or two" then add this to another list in your head: promising ideas.

You'll need a lot of them. I have a list of about a hundred products that I think I could build in a week that solve a problem that I or someone I know cares about.

With that list, start thinking about the ideas in more detail. Think about some of the implementation details in your head. Maybe spend a few hours starting to implement some of the trickier parts of them to get a sense of how har they'd really be. Think about how you could make money off of them.

Notice which ideas keep popping into your head. Notice which ideas make you excited when you think about how they would feel to have built. Notice which ideas come up over and over.

You need to be doing this all the time.

Start telling people about your more promising ideas. Pitch to your friends, your family, your coworkers, strangers you meet at parties. Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. Any feedback you get at this stage is worth much more than the risk of losing an idea you have barely invested in. There's always another, better idea down the road.

Notice the difference between mild enthusiasm and genuine enthusiasm. "That sounds great!" doesn't mean much. "I need that! You should build that!" means a lot more. "I told my friend about your idea and they want it too!" means the most. If you find an idea that is already spreading before you've even built the site, that's a good sign.

Once you start to have ideas that a) solve a problem several people care about, b) are something you can implement, c) seem like they could make some money, d) excite and spread through your friends, and d) keep coming back into your head, that's when you should start implementing them more seriously. Write a 1-2 week minimum viable product.

I really think that if you do this kind of exploration process, you'll have a much stronger footing to stand on with your products. It's much faster to play with the idea in this way than it is to make a prototype, and you need to evaluate hundreds or thousands of ideas before you find a good one, so stick to this kind of fast evaluation process. Save prototyping for ideas that have already been vetted.

</comment><comment><USER38> When you mentioned reddit, it got me thinking. When I first saw it, I didn't just think "I will use this".

I actually thought: "man, I want this to succeed, it would be awesome if they could pull it off, it is obvious that such a thing will work only if they have some initial users, so I'll use it for a week and hope that it gets enough momentum".

I can't really pin it down what prompted that initial reaction, but it was somehow more than it being useful. It could be the minimalist design or the way the developers sounded, I just wanted to help them.

</comment><comment><USER39> > _"I got the following feedback several times: 'it's too complicated, there's > no order, no title in threads, other forums(phpbb style) are better' "_

People come to "BBS's" for the content of the discussions. The software needs to extend that content or enhance the community. For many purposes, off the shelf packages are probably sufficient. If your users want phpbb features, then using phpbb is the way to go.

</comment><comment><USER40> If your users are telling you that they can't see what problem you're solving it's very probable that you really aren't solving any of the problems you think they have. Also you probably also underestimate the need for goodlooking visuals and good usability. This things are paramount if you want to get some sort of traction. Why not include someone with design sensibilities on this projects of yours?

</comment><comment><USER41> Try answering these questions:

Who is 'they' ? How many are "they" ? right now , where are "they"? Do you know even one of the "they"?

Ahh, its so much easier to give advise . If it makes you feel any better, I am also trying to find my version of "they".

In the meanwhile, get Steve Blank's Epiphany book and keep reading and applying until you have found the "they".

Good Luck !!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, I hope we all will be able to find our versions of the beloved "they" :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Do (or did) you personally use the things you've created?

Testing & dev doesn't count. Are you passionate user #1?

</comment><comment><USER43> The thing is, you need to make the users come to you. Marketing and perseverance are what make start ups successful. You can have a brilliant product, but unless you convince people it adds value to their lives, they won't come.

</comment><comment><USER44> maybe you're discounting the importance of luck...

somehow society just decides your thing is cool. like when there's 5 equal products and one is successful for no particular reason.

i always think about how weird bars are. you can 2 equal bars but 1 is packed every night... even with zero distinguishing differences. society just says 'oh that bar usually has people, let's go there'.

the problem may not be the product but figuring out how to convince people it's the cool _______ to use.

<comment><USER45> "like when there's 5 equal products and one is successful for no particular reason."

I don't think it's chance. If there are 5 equal products and 1 is successful, there is a reason. You may not be able to see it right away, but it's probably due to: UI, marketing (the right people saw it), benefits, or simplicity.

Look at twitter as an example of this. It's a simple idea and there were many other potential competitors, yet it's still #1. Why?

I read an article about how they targeted influential bloggers (people that had thousands of readers). This wasn't luck, it was an intelligent marketing move. Myspace did the same thing. They targeted musicians (which in turn got fans to get on board).

"i always think about how weird bars are. you can 2 equal bars but 1 is packed every night... even with zero distinguishing differences. society just says 'oh that bar usually has people, let's go there'."

If you can get women to want to come to your bar, the guys will follow and you will have a packed bar. Two bars also are never "equal". There will always be differences (ambiance, drinks, price, maybe the bathrooms are unclean, etc).

<comment><USER44> I guess what I was referring to is that sometimes things just blow up.

At a certain point Rainbow sandals became the defacto sandal of southern frat boys. Did they market to them? No. Some influencer decided he liked them and it slowly spread. Now it's just the established norm. Most of society just follows trends. And if you're a company, you are at the mercy of these trends. Yes you can try to create them, but you can fail just because your rival got lucky.

Did Smirnoff Ice instigate Bros Icing Bros? No but they're sales spiked because of it.

Did PBR market to hipsters? No but they adopted it as their own and now PBR reaps the benefits.

Run DMC wrote about Adidas without being paid a cent. Was Adidas really BETTER than any other shoe brand? Adidas just kind of got lucky.

You may throw something back at me about reaching influencers... yes you can try to do that.... but to a certain degree you're at the mercy of society's whims.

<comment><USER45> "You may throw something back at me about reaching influencers... yes you can try to do that.... but to a certain degree you're at the mercy of society's whims."

You are right about this. But, the amount of companies that became successful due to this sort of luck are the exception rather than the rule. It doesn't happen that often.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> It could be that you just need to stick with it longer. If you are not out of funds, keep refining your product and trying to market it. Thats what I would do.

<comment><AUTHOR> My projects have lifespan of 1-2 years, i do my best to get them going or to sell them duringthis period. if still the goal is not achieved, they take their places in the attic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> What does your product actually do? Does it solve a critical problem? Have you done any customer development?

</comment><comment><USER48> "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." --Oscar Wilde

</comment><comment><USER49> > I even deployed a localized copy of cnprog as a forum on women's issues

Stackoverflow is designed for tech-savvy people.

You can't just make assumptions about what your users want/need/know. You actually have to listen to feedback. If your response to feedback is "WTF", well that explains why you don't have many users.

It also means you didn't really build 'it'; you built the wrong thing and you don't want to fix it.

btw, usability > visual appeal.</comment>


Ask HN: Some advice on accepting a job in SF - <AUTHOR>

In a couple of months I am graduating with a degree in CS, and I have several job offers in SF.
However, after reviewing the rent prices how are you guys doing it? I have a girlfriend and we plan to get married when we graduate, so I am just looking for an apartment for two people, and our cat, 550 - 800 square feet.
Yet, to rent an apartment in a half decent neighborhood or within driving/transit range of my employer is still $2,500 to $3,200 minimum. That's with a 20 - 45 minute commute, and for an apartment building built in the 40's - 70's.
What is this madness?
My offers in SF are for a base salary between $95k - $110k, so clearly I can survive (pretty comfortably), but it limits my savings and I have a school loan (which is $1000+ per month).
I also have other offers around the country ranging from $85k - $100k, but they are more corporate oriented and don't come with some of the nice perks or room for growth/improvement.
Is there some trick I don't know about when moving to SF? <comment><USER2> Welcome to the Bay Area. Move to Oakland near a BART station or Alameda if you have a car and want to save money - it's a quick drive to West Oakland BART or the ferry terminal.

In SF I like the Inner or Outer Richmond since it's a quick express bus ride downtown via the 1 on California St and there are good restaurants around. I still occasionally see 2BRs with parking in Outer Richmond for $3400 on Craigslist which is a good deal in this market for SF. I also think Brisbane, CA is underrated depending on your commute and goals. There is a Caltrain stop pretty near. Email me if you have any questions about the area or whatever and I'll buy you a coffee when you get out here.

I can say that if you move here with your skill set you will very probably never want for work and can quickly earn more in a few years or sooner.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is there much crime in/on Alameda? The prices look great, so unless there is some major draw back, I would probably go there. After looking at it, I could take the ferry or BART from Alameda right to where I would work within 40 minutes which is fine for me.

Thanks for pointing me in that direction!

<comment><USER2> Nah, not compared to Oakland or SF. It is starting to get more developed but still a bit sleepy. Park street has become pretty built up. Less going on near the webster side but closer to West Oakland BART (any train to SF) and a little bit cheaper probably.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Live in the East Bay. Use BART, Casual Carpool, or AC Transit Transbay buses.

[http://sfcasualcarpool.com/](http://sfcasualcarpool.com/)

Good candidate locations: in Oakland near Rockridge (safe, nice area & easy commute) or Berkeley (college-town feel). That will usually give ~45m commute (one-way). You can get a place for $1400-$1600 there.

</comment><comment><USER4> Your alternative is mass-transit. If your work is in reasonable proximity to BART, Caltrain, or a Ferry, then check out where that mass transit leads to and see if you can afford to live there near a station and if you can stand the commute. For BART, Albany, North Berkeley, Rockridge, and El Cerrito are pretty nice places to live. For Ferries, check out Alameda.

Pick your job based on whether the work will be interesting. Perks are just monetary compensation where you get no say in how it is spent. Consider what it would cost to match the perks in terms of out-of-pocket spending, and whether or not you would actually spend the money if it was coming from your pocket.

When evaluating non-SF offers, do consider the value of a short commute, a traffic-free commute, and proximity (or lack thereof) to things you like to do.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm also considering a job offer there right now. I'm currently living in Austin with a 5 minute commute to my office. About 10% of my income goes to my mortgage. I just can't imagine how much they will have to pay me to make this worth it.

</comment><comment><USER6> >Some advice on accepting a job in SF...

Think of SFO as your real-life Grad School. Plan to stay 2-3 years grinding it out, build your professional network, gain experience, see how the other half lives.

Then move back to the Heartland-- raise your family! You'll have tons more options for work/life balance.

</comment><comment><USER7> Daly City. Westlake Village Apartments. You can get a crummy but livable apartment reasonably close to BART for ~$1800.

</comment><comment><USER8> nope - expect to spend most of your earnings for the priveledge ;-)</comment>


Nodbg - social debugging - <AUTHOR> http://www.nodbg.com

<comment><AUTHOR> We built this as part of node knockout - we wanted to be able to share debugger sessions with other people, so you could collaborate on debugging.

You can read more here: <http://nodeknockout.com/teams/pandabits></comment>


Google Privacy Practices Worse Than ISP Snooping, AT&T Charges - <AUTHOR> http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/google-privacy.html <comment><USER2> Part of the problem is that AT&T is a partially public company in that it receives huge benefits from the government. Also google is an entirely opt-in option where as AT&T is usually the user's only choice.

I know these are in some ways unfair comparisons but sadly in the world we live in the telecommunication industry is dominated by several players due to past laws. As such they need/have to play by different rules.

</comment><comment><USER3> Between this and AT&T's motion to deny Sprint+Clearwire on the grounds of spectrum allocation ( [http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pd...](http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520037811) ) it seems like AT&T is the kid that whines to his parents "BUT JOHNNY DID IT FIRST!" when he's guilty of something.

<comment><USER4> "But Johnny did it first!" is also what Amazon says about abusive patents like "One Click."</comment></comment>


The Inside Story of Facebook the Movie - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/09/ff_thesocialnetwork/all/1

<comment><USER2> This several-months-old article doesn't add much, but I do like this line:

 _Oh sure, moviemakers love hackers, the same way they love Magical Black Men and Rapping Grannies._

Maybe one day magical black men and rapping grannies will get the proper in- depth treatment which they so richly deserve.

</comment><comment><USER3> The authors of this article apparently haven't heard of _Pirates of Silicon Valley_ , which is unfortunate because considering their opinion on _The Social Network_ they would probably love it.

<comment><USER4> There was an oblique reference:

"But silicon minstrelsy doesn't confer much respect: Until The Social Network, the computer business has been denied a mainstream biopic or a resonating social drama. (Even the titanic Gates-Jobs struggle for the soul of the PC, the Valley's very own Cain and Abel tale, warranted nothing more than a TNT Original.)"</comment></comment>


Release to NPM and Docker Hub with GitHub Actions and Conventional Commits - <AUTHOR> https://www.asyncapi.com/blog/automated-releases/ <comment><USER2> I agree with a lot of the post.

Shameless plug, I suggest a workflow very similar with my own github action, [https://github.com/rubenfiszel/autochangelog- action](https://github.com/rubenfiszel/autochangelog-action). The suggested workflow is to:

      - trigger the action through CURL
      - the action generates a changelog diff and some
        manifest file diff with the version change (such as package.json).
        The next version is inferred using semantic versioning and
        conventionnal commits, respecting fix, feat and breaks.
        With that new content, you generate a PR.
        That PR is labeled with "autorelease"
      - When that PR is merged, another action is triggered wich do the
        Github Release and fill the body with the changelog diff

<comment><USER3> Shameless plug on top of your plug.

I'm one of the people building:

[https://www.actionspanel.app/](https://www.actionspanel.app/)

A GitHub App that lets you trigger your Actions without needing to run cURL

<comment><USER2> Small world. I found your appp and really wanted to try it. Unfortunately, when I sign in, I get redirected to the sign-in page ([https://www.actionspanel.app/auth/sign- in?next=/app](https://www.actionspanel.app/auth/sign-in?next=/app)) in an endless cycle.

Do you know what could be the issue?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Great post. Very clear explanation of things.

The semantic release tooling is so good, I've started using it on non-js projects. I'm using it to manage Terraform modules, base docker images, etc. Once you're doing that, might as well mix in Husky and commit-lint to manage your git hooks and commit messages too.

There are comparable things elsewhere, but node is so ubiquitous in my tool chain already that this is the path of least resistance for me. And it works great!

<comment><AUTHOR> I wanted to also introduce PR title validation, so there is no mistake possible on merging and we follow convetional commits 100% but unfortunately GitHub Actions do not support fork-based workflow properly and those PR checks would be useless :(

<comment><USER5> > GitHub Actions do not support fork-based workflow properly

Could you elaborate on this?

<comment><AUTHOR> Take a look on my blog post about it [https://dev.to/derberg/github-actions- when-fascination-turns...](https://dev.to/derberg/github-actions-when- fascination-turns-into-disappointment-4d75). I already reported this to GitHub Actions team and seems they are working on that. For reference [https://github.community/t5/GitHub-Actions/GitHub-Action- wor...](https://github.community/t5/GitHub-Actions/GitHub-Action-workflow-is- executed-for-a-PR-from-a-forked-repo/m-p/50654#M7914)

<comment><USER5> Ah yes, fork. My mind read that as branch as we barely ever use forks (enterprise environment and all)

Issue comment-triggered Actions have a write-access GITHUB_TOKEN, unless I'm mistaken. You could implement the /ok-to-test flow with that.

(I'm working on converting some of VSCode's triage automation to Actions, for reference)

<comment><AUTHOR> Guy from GitHub suggested the same, but how would you really see such workflow in action? all I have in mind seems so complicated that easier would be to write and host dedicated bot really. Supporting PR on Issue level sounds strange

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is awesome! It's a pity that Github Actions don't work well with PRs coming from forks. We could do many more things.</comment>


Tech Lead got banned from Facebook (as a millionaire) - <AUTHOR> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oJcEDzgPRrc <comment><AUTHOR> What caught my attention is that if Facebook bans an account, you lose access to all other platforms that you used your FB account as identity - no way to appeal even appeal it seems.

That can be quite intense if someone uses it a lot.</comment>


Ask HN: Leaving a job with unfinished work? - <AUTHOR>

I'm engineer #1 at an aging startup and have been hacking on a project that will likely never see the light of day due to current demands. For this, and other reasons, I'd like to leave my current job for greener pastures. However, I have real anxiety, paranoia, and fear about resigning and leaving the project unfinished. I suppose these emotions come from the fact that nobody will immediately be able to carry the torch on this product, even with a knowledge transfer.<p>How have you dealt with this? Assuming leaving is the right move is this some silly emotion(s) that I should immediately get over and get out? <comment><USER2> People really need to get a backbone and stand up for themselves. Sorry if that seems harsh, I've just noticed quite a few Ask HN threads where devs feel guilty about leaving for a variety of reasons.

They could fire you at anytime. You can leave at any time. It is common courtesy for either party to give 1-2 weeks notice. But that is not a rule, and I've known cases where people give notice and are asked to leave immediately (a rather extreme example that probably won't happen).

They might ask you to stay until the project is finished, or to stay for a bit longer. You can accept. You can demand a one-time bonus for staying longer. You can stay on as a contractor. Or you can just refuse and leave this very instant.

*The exception to this is that sometimes employment contracts will state that you're contractually obligated to give them X days/weeks notice. In which case you should fulfill that obligation.

<comment><AUTHOR> tough love is sometimes the best, thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Once of the biggest things I had to accept when I was laid off the day after a major, money saving project was launched is this:

It's not your code, it's their code.

It's their responsibility to finish it, maintain it and extend it. If they want to bastardize it, that's on them. If they choose to not use it anymore, that's on them.

This has made voluntarily leaving companies much easier for me.

You did your job until you felt like not doing that job anymore. Pack up your stuff and do something more worthwhile.

</comment><comment><USER4> No point of keeping stomping the swamp if cleaner and greener pastures are within your sight.

Even less need to fret over it.

Give your startup a fair warning to allow them enough time to take care of replacement. Offer them to be available on a consulting basis (at your asking hourly rate, subject to change, no negotiations) indefinitely.

This should do.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sage advice. Thanks.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to find a better job while being employed? - <AUTHOR> I wonder, did anyone else ever had this problem. I have a full time job, but I also want to look for a better job. I can't just quit because I have a family and honestly, we wouldn't last a month...<p>So how can I look for a job? I'll have to answer phone calls during working hours from my current work place, and I will have to go to job interviews. Is this even possible without quitting or letting the employer know? <comment><USER2> I'm one of four directors in a company with 25 employees. If one of my colleagues wanted to look for another job, I'd want to help them. That might be by making them happier in their current work, or it might be by helping them find another position in our company, or, as a last resort, helping them find a position they're happier with in another company.

Absolutely I'd want to keep them, but sometimes that's not possible. Even if they leave, I'd help them remain productive, plan their exit, and control the hand-over.

If finding another job is the path they'd take, I'd find a way to let people take calls and attend interviews. Obviously we'd discuss either longer hours to make up the time, or a reduction in pay, but we'd find a way to agree how it would work.

If you can't talk to your current boss, moving out is the best thing to do, but the least you can do it talk to them first and give them the chance to make things better, or help you transition to a job where you're happier.

<comment><USER3> I wish all employers could be like you...

<comment><USER4> I agree! IMO I would be hesitant to tell an employer I was looking to exit. Some egotistical people may react as though it is personal to them. Also it puts you in some pressure to get a job in a reasonable time, when really you might want to take six months to find the right company and renumeration. Job hunting is best when your not 100% sure you want to leave a company vs. desperate to change. And the employer is likely to mentally write you off and you don't know if new internal opportunities will open up. While I would chat to someone if I had a long close relationship, I would err on the side of caution.

As for calls and interviews, this is what voicemail is for. Call back on your breaks. People understand the situation. Also interviews can usually be done before or after work. If the new employer is not understanding it might be a sign they're not a great company to work for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You'd be surprised how accommodating a potential-employer can be. Just be truthful: "I can't interview 9-5 because I have a job." If anything, that will make you _more_ attractive. If they're eager to fill the position they'll work with you; keep in mind you're probably not the only candidate who has a job already, so it's likely that they're planning to conduct some interviews during off-hours/weekends anyway.

<comment><USER6> >"I can't interview 9-5 because I have a job."

This is a little dishonest, but why not tell your employer you have a doctor's appointment or jury duty? Or just say you'll be out of office for personal reasons. Or take a day off and interview one half of the day and use the rest to relax.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why don't you just tell your employer you are looking for another job? Is your fear that they would fire you on the spot? In my experience that is an unfounded fear and most employers want to know the reasons that led you to looking for a another job to begin with so that they can work with you to fix any issues that led to your decision to look for work elsewhere.

<comment><AUTHOR> he may not fire me on the spot, but he will definitely look for a replacement. what id he finds a replacement before i find a new job?

<comment><USER7> That's a really weird set up. You should hold your cards to your chest then and do interviews secretly by making up excuses.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Most interviewers/companies understand that you work during usual work hours. That said, you should be able to step out for 15 minutes to take a call during work. If you get questioned about it, just tell them that it was an important personal call. And you could try to schedule these calls around lunch or your usual afternoon break time.

You can always schedule job interviews on Saturdays. Again, most interviewers understand the circumstances and usually do hiring on Saturdays to accommodate those who are working.

</comment><comment><USER9> Not only is it possible, but it's utterly normal. As others have said, tell interviewers your constraints.

Hopefully, taking a vacation day (or half day) isn't impossible at your current job. Having appointments in the middle of the day isn't unusual. Make sure all phone calls are scheduled and step out to take them.</comment>


Google Glass Demo Remixed With Google Ads - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_mRF0rBXIeg

<comment><USER2> If ads are introduced I would imagine they'd be a more ticker-tape styled version of GMail's adword ads and not image ads because

1) Serving images takes significantly more bandwidth

2) People are already used to that style ad if they use GMail (which presumably people with Glass do)

3) Nothing says effective advertisement like searing the words into your subconscious</comment>


Reasons Employees Prefer to Work Remotely - <AUTHOR> https://www.sitepen.com/blog/8-reasons-employees-prefer-to-work-remotely/ <comment><USER2> Full time remote here: I love it.

Big pot of coffee I brewed ONCE in the morning and will drink from a thermos the rest of the day? Check.

Timer cube that sounds ever 25 minutes for pomodoros? Check.

Food in fridge ready to be cooked? Check.

Absolute golden silence? Check.

Adorable black cat sitting in lap? Check.

Yep. Can confirm. It's pretty nice.

<comment><USER3> Downsides:

* No adult interaction daily unless you make an active effort on your breaks or work from a coworking space

* Possibly limited mobility and networking opportunities in your org (as someone else mentioned in thread, lack of casual interactions besides those you interact with on a daily basis)

* Wage compression due to larger candidate pool for remote roles

* Harder to disconnect/unplug from work comms, especially if your org "follows the sun" and is global

* Politics still exist (there is no such thing as "no politics" in an org)

* Video chat is not a replacement for in person body language interpretation

TLDR Contractor style employment without contractor style pay bump

I highly recommend remote work if it enables you to live somewhere without the role locally you're suited for, _and_ you have a network of colleagues to fall back on for other remote work in the event your role doesn't work out or disappears, _and_ you have a solid emergency fund. I do not recommend remote work if the compensation delta vs an in person role available to you is not substantial, or if you value daily socialization.

<comment><USER2> You have a lot of really great points here.

I think you are right. I will have to move on once I want a raise or promotion, but it's nice for now. I'm basically taking it as a chance to clock in, do a great job at work, clock out, and study for my next career move.

I feel like a contractor would be expected to work much harder / have a higher accountability than a salaried worker, no?

<comment><USER3> My observation is contractors have similar accountability to FTEs, but contractors get paid for every hour they work (compared to the free time expected of FTEs).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> A few other advantages of working remotely, at least in my view:

\- less office politics

\- no forced socialization, sorry but I have absolutely no interest in your private life _while_ I'm working, I want to get work done and be done at 5, not pretend to be a busy body for the sake of it while having chats all throughout the day

\- re. saving money, tax breaks are also a good incentive

\- less personal but in my view as important: road decongestion/less pollution/etc.

As the author notes however, working remotely is not for everybody. Routine and self-discipline are extremely important, and a lot of people can't do that without being on site.

<comment><USER5> Agree so hard about forced socialization. My work life and my social life should be two very separate things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> for me theres one reason and i know there are people who will screw their noses up at it.

i smoke, a lot, especially when im trying to concentrate, when working in an office its quite an annoyance when i have to go outside every 30 mins.

before anyone starts no i dont want to quit, i have done before and found it made me less productive and a generally less pleasant person to be around (not just in the early stages, i quit for three rather unpleasant years) im happy to trade the potential physical issues for the sake of my mental state

other reasons: i can listen to my own music, wear whatever im comfortable in, drink my own decent quality coffee and i dont have to deal with other people (its not possible to work somewhere and not interact with others, id rather not engage their pointless smalltalk but its unavoidable in a workplace scenario)

</comment><comment><USER7> In IT particularly there's absolutely no reason to go five times a week to a place and sit there coding for 8 hours every day. Surely an Alien would say : Why do you do that to yourselves humans ?

</comment><comment><USER8> Which are pretty much exactly what you think they are: more flexible, more comfortable. Without addressing or acknowledging any of the difficulties (a whole new set of distractions, lack of casual interactions with coworkers, narrower communication channels, pressure to never disconnect).

</comment><comment><USER9> Yep, working remote is awesome. Just consider not everyone is a good remote worker, so you need to filter out a lot of people who want to work remote but don't have the skills (yet).

</comment><comment><USER10> what kind of MBA brain washing are managers receiving that make them think most people wouldn't prefer working from home, if given the chance?</comment>


A web design masterpiece.....from hell. - <AUTHOR> http://evangelcathedral.net/

<comment><USER2> As a designer, the thing you have to understand about this site before you can release yourself and find enlightenment, is that the client _loves_ this site. They're thrilled. I'll bet they had a big "debut", put it up on the giant screen, and the congregation clapped enthusiastically.

When you can internalize this fact, without it troubling your soul, you are ready, Grasshopper.

</comment><comment><USER3> Dear god... it's... it's like watching a DVD.

Oh wow, every link has a voice intro. This is... this is quite impressive. I can only imagine what the Evangel Cathedral is like in person.

Edit: THEY EXPLAIN EVERY SINGLE THING YOU CLICK ON! It's like web 1.0 version 9.

Edit 2: Wow. Listen to the VO on their "Events" page. It sounds like this website is absolutely perfect for this church.

</comment><comment><USER4> Impressive, but when I'm looking for a fully immersive business homepage experience nothing beats <http://industrialpainter.com/>

<comment><USER5> Oh god, everything hurts! I'm going back to bed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The same guy has done a bunch of other church sites. It's a genre.

<http://www.sharperfx.com/portfolio.htm>

(Perhaps not surprisingly, a bunch of the sites linked from here have since switched to more... sedate designs.)

<comment><USER7> Looks like he only did the intro. The main site credits these guys - <http://www.artisanblue.com/lsg/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> More such things (and some good stuff too!) can be found here: [http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1arwld/what_site_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1arwld/what_site_do_you_consider_a_hidden_gem_of_the/)

</comment><comment><USER9> Really curious about how much time it took to program this.

</comment><comment><USER10> "It's a good start...I think we're almost there, but...It needs to Pop" (<http://iampaddy.com/pop/>)

</comment><comment><USER11> Made by <http://www.artisanblue.com/..>.

Otherwise known as "ab" so this is an 'abdesign' :)

</comment><comment><USER12> I feel like last time I saw this it filled my screen up a lot larger. I think I had a much lower res monitor last I saw this.

</comment><comment><USER13> At first I was convinced that this just a joke website, but there is way to much content for this to be anything but real.

</comment><comment><USER14> Chrome ate my CPU on that site. I don't recall hearing my MBP fans run that loud, ever.

</comment><comment><USER15> God hates epileptics and the deaf, at least that's what this church must think.

</comment><comment><USER16> No matter how they try and sex it up religion is still "guilt with holidays."

</comment><comment><USER17> All the 2Advanced tricks of the 90s... today!

</comment><comment><USER18> I thought I had produced the worst shit there ever was on the WWW and no...I had to come second place to this piece of shit.</comment>


IPhone 5 Will Have Feature Called Assistant - <AUTHOR> http://www.tekgoblin.com/2011/07/24/iphone-5-will-have-feature-called-assistant/

<comment><USER2> I was wondering how long it would take for Apple to integrate their Siri acquisition into their products.

Has anybody used the Siri Assistant (I don't have an iOS device) who can give a review of how well it works? The reviews on the app store page don't really give an idea of what it's like.

With built in voice search in WP7 Bing (and I assume Android), is this really something of a differentiator?</comment>


Feedback 2.0 (Paris/France) is recruiting junior/senior software engineers - <AUTHOR>

It's a RubyOnRails shop based in Paris, I thought it could be interesting to some HNers here.
I'm not affiliated to them, although I worked with them in the past though.
Links with full details below. <comment><AUTHOR> Junior eng: [http://www.feedback20.com/files/jobs/Junior%20R&D%20SWEn...](http://www.feedback20.com/files/jobs/Junior%20R&D%20SWEng.pdf)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Senior eng: [http://www.feedback20.com/files/jobs/Senior%20R&D%20SWEn...](http://www.feedback20.com/files/jobs/Senior%20R&D%20SWEng.pdf)</comment>


450 Amazon employees tell Bezos to kick Palantir off AWS - <AUTHOR> https://sociable.co/business/amazon-palantir-aws-employees/ <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18237358](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18237358)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18243981](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18243981)

</comment><comment><USER3> Businesses are the new political unit in the United States - employers are currently more accountable to workers than politicians to constituents. This is a shift workers need to leverage!

<comment><USER4> We went quickly from "The government should protect us from these private cooperations" to "Private cooperations should protect us from the government".

<comment><USER3> I think you misinterpreted the above - the point is that the locale of power shifts, and common people need to trace these changes and take advantage of opportunities, for the welfare of all. It's not about seeking "protection" from anyone. It's about making sure the people have a say in the events that impact our lives.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> And what else will Amazon employees demand AWS not host?</comment>


Soylent CEO charged over illegal, 'unsightly' container home - <AUTHOR> http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-soylent-container-home-20160729-snap-htmlstory.html <comment><USER2> Talk of it being unsightly is useless without pictures. Which this article lacked.

[http://la.curbed.com/2016/7/21/12245620/soylent-illegal- ship...](http://la.curbed.com/2016/7/21/12245620/soylent-illegal-shipping- container-home-lincoln-heights)

Has some pictures of what they're talking about with respect to graffiti and trash.

<comment><USER3> So the neighbors trespass, and find that someone is keeping garbage inside their private structure? Good thing they don't look in my home, I have garbage too!

It's also a bit funny that they say they did everything they could to keep the land clear, when he bought it for $21300; they could very easily have bought the land from or instead of him, as they did for the $1.4MM parcel.

<comment><USER2> > He has encouraged neighbors to continue using the land for walks and runs, > writing, "I would love to meet you and discuss the project."

He invited them onto the property. The property has been damaged (presumably not be those complaining, but the conspiracy minded will come up with something I'm sure):

> Rhinehart bought the parcel of land beneath the shipping container at > auction in December for $21,300, property records show. Since then, > neighbors say the container's glass windows have since been smashed and the > entire unit has been extensively tagged with graffiti.

He isn't maintaining it. He isn't securing it. I do agree that the community ought to have considered buying it. But he bought it and he's poorly administered his property, to the point now of apparent negligence and potential criminal wrongdoing ("criminal", not sure I agree with that, seems like it should be a civil thing to be me, but they are criminal charges that have been brought up).

<comment><USER3> > _He invited them onto the property. The property has been damaged > (presumably not be those complaining, but the conspiracy minded will come up > with something I 'm sure):_

I don't think he invited Instagram user 'sashifly' into the container to take pictures of the garbage bags inside, though you may know more than me.

It seems like he isn't keeping the property clean all day every day, but leaving the remains from a barbecue outside one night and into the next day is far from negligence, and the fact that people take his property for granted doesn't incur any obligation on his part. The business about securing the container down is ridiculous; it isn't going anywhere in an earthquake (you'd have bigger problems than that if it did), and the people who want it gone should have bought the property themselves (or made an agreement with Rhinehart). The fact that others are coming on to his land and vandalizing his property is cause for Rhinehart to complain about poor policing and behavior on the part of the locals. If the windows were broken by meteorites, I might agree that he should fix them, but when people are repeatedly damaging your property, you have a limited responsibility to clean up after them.

From what I can see, the locals want a nice, clean, flat place to hike, and they don't want to pay for it, so they've begun a witch-hunt.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> He lives in a box container and (presumably) only consumes a substance that provides all the essential calories and macro-nutrients he needs...

He is consistent, I will give him that. Hard to say that is the path I would want my life to follow. Sounds like a remarkably boring existence.

<comment><USER2> Assuming that's all he eats, I agree that aspect is boring.

Regarding the container home: I'm not sure it's totally boring. These things are often about the size of a typical mobile or modular home. It's more like they've repurposed the space. It could be well-done on the inside (no pictures, can't say in his case). And you could (with proper permits) place them in a lot of interesting locales.

<comment><USER5> Well, it's not _all_ he eats. Just for routine meals. He treats regular food as a treat or experience to spend your entertainment budget (of both time and money) on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Complaint says he didn't have a permit. Where I live, we aren't even supposed to install a toilet without a permit. Want to cut down a tree in your own back yard? Permit from the "tree committee". Put up a sign in front of your home or business? Multiple permits from zoning and building committees. Thus it does not surprise me that some process is required prior to dropping a live-in shipping container in a major urban area.

</comment><comment><USER7> Yes, paywall. Go to google and search for this: "Soylent CEO charged over illegal, 'unsightly' container home in Montecito Heights" or try going to [https://www.google.com/#q=%22Soylent+CEO+charged+over+illega...](https://www.google.com/#q=%22Soylent+CEO+charged+over+illegal%2C+%27unsightly%27+container+home+in+Montecito+Heights%22) then view first result.

EDIT: I just learned about the 'web' link under the title. Clicking that will take you to google with the same link I mentioned above.

<comment><USER3> Please don't comment on the paywall.[1]

The "web" link under the title on the discussion page does exactly the same thing your search link does; there is no need to 'Google' things for the rest of us.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER8> re:[1], I can't find anything regarding "pay", "wall" or "paid" on that page. What exactly are you referring to?

<comment><USER3> The paywall issue has been discussed a number of times, and dang has ruled that paywalls should not be discussed in comments. I believe that the relevant rule is:

 _" Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think a story is spam or off-topic, flag it by clicking on its 'flag' link. If you think a comment is egregious, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. (Not all users see flag links; there's a small karma threshold.)"_

<comment><USER7> For the record, I was not complaining about there being a paywall, just informing others that there was one. And for the record here are dang's comments pertaining to paywalls: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989)

"It's ok to ask how to read an article or to help other users by sharing a workaround. But please do this without going on about paywalls." Sorry I wasn't aware of the new 'web' link feature.

<comment><USER9> It's really not a particularly new feature, and I swear its existence pops up every time a paywalled article is posted. Lurk more?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Mayyybe he shouldn't have chosen bright red.

<comment><USER11> He could have made it much nicer to look at and live. Like these houses.

[https://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchirico/surprisingly- gorgeou...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchirico/surprisingly-gorgeous- homes-made-from-shipping-containers?utm_term=.bbOyqGp6z#.dimdNVvPL)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> So why is an "experimental living facility" illegal? I would assume fire hazards, but I know nothing of real estate

<comment><USER13> If you pay $750k for a home and someone buys the highest parcel in the neighborhood (which used to be open park land), and puts up a shipping container that gets graffiti'd, your real estate value is going to take a hit. The neighborhood is now uglier, has less aesthetic quality, and is potentially endangered in case of earthquake.

Many cities have ordinances such that someone can't buy a lot in a neighborhood and turn it into a landfill such that everyone's property values suffer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> dupe: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12151004](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12151004)

<comment><USER15> Not dupe. That thread is about the possibility of being charged. This thread is about him now being charged.

<comment><USER14> IMHO that's a trivial detail that doesn't really change the discussion or topic (but I don't really get why this attracts so much discussion at all, so maybe I was to quick about that)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Dude would be right at home up here in Alaska.

</comment><comment><USER17> "Disruptive innovation"</comment>


Apple Tries to Stop Developers Sharing Data on Users' Friends - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-12/apple-cracks-down-on-apps-sharing-information-on-users-friends <comment><AUTHOR> The data in my Address Book is far more sensitive (and valuable) than the pages my friends like.</comment>


Being vegan isn't as good for humanity as you think - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/ <comment><USER2> A pretty weak article and omits any new developments in the future of food production.

The main argument of the article appears to be that some farm land won't be used (perennial cropland) when people are on a vegan diet. Well, then use that space to build some aeroponic or hydroponic farms [1]. You'll get produce all year around.

Other studies have shown that it's not sustainable if we'd have to rely on meat to feed the world. The only reason why we keep eating meat is because it's cultural, traditional and pleasurable. Our society doesn't need meat anymore to survive, plenty of other protein sources available that doesn't involve killing other sentient beings en masse. Even some high performance athletes are relying on a plant-based diet only - making the argument 'you need animal protein to be strong' moot [2]

The future of food is going to be plant based [3].

[1] [http://aerofarms.com/](http://aerofarms.com/) [2] [http://thediscerningbrute.com/more-vegan-athletes-rise-to- th...](http://thediscerningbrute.com/more-vegan-athletes-rise-to-the-top/) [3] [http://beyondmeat.com/](http://beyondmeat.com/)

<comment><USER3> One of the larger problems I've found with the vegan diet is, where do you source your Omega 3 from? ALA (found in flax and chia seeds) has low bioavailability as opposed to EPA and DHA found in fish and eggs.

Not only that, flax and chia seeds are very high in Omega 6, thus promote dangerous levels of inflammation.

So, can a vegan please explain to me how your community has managed to solve this?

<comment><USER4> Fish get their Omega 3 from algae, and so that's probably the best and most direct way to get it. That's what Soylent does for Omega 3's using bio reactors.

Also, vegans are healthier than the average population with lower rates of death in major categories like heart disease[1]. In other words, from the standard american diet to veganism, it's generally much healthier which I think is the better comparison to make.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Health_effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Health_effects)

<comment><USER5> I would argue that the reason vegans are much healthier isn't their specific diet but that they're paying so much attention to their diet.

<comment><USER4> That sounds less of an argument and more of an opinion. Throwing out anecdotal evidence, I'm a vegan and I know a couple dozen vegans, most of us don't pay any attention to what we eat except making sure it doesn't include an animal product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Going vegan isn't supposed to be as good for humanity as possible -- it is supposed to be as good as possible for all conscious beings, including non- human animals. It would be rather surprising if the _best_ diet for humans would also be the _best_ diet for humans and animals taken together. On the other hand, it is encouraging that these two goals do not conflict for the most part: The paper only finds pretty minimal land-use efficiency gains if one mixes some animal products into a plant-based diet.

<comment><USER7> Exactly. The idea of the vegan diet being "good for humanity" isn't something that crosses the minds of many "die-hard vegans", quite the opposite in fact. Many have a profound dislike of humanity and choose a vegan diet out of concern for the animals harmed in food production. Morrissey would be an excellent example of someone who really takes that philosophy to heart. For the record, I'm a vegetarian, my daughter is vegan, and I'm a Morrissey fan.

<comment><USER8> "profound dislike for humanity" seems unfair.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The idea of the vegan diet being "good for humanity" isn't solely about land use which this article focuses on. It's mostly about use of energy.

Vegan diet: food from land -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth.

Meat/dairy/what have you: food from land -> truck -> animal's mouth -> truck -> grocery store -> my mouth.

And when it comes to meat it means years feeding and water etc. until the product can actually be sent to the store. That's the idea behind it being "good for humanity". A lot of energy/pollution/water use is going into something we simply do not need in such large portions. If we ate less meat (like humans have been doing for most of our history) things would be a lot better for the environment and therefore humanity.

<comment><USER10> Tell that to someone forced to paleo diet due to health/performance reasons. We obviously don't have as complicated ingestion system as cows nor as simple as cats so we aren't "designed" to eat vegetables/meat only but most likely both.

<comment><USER11> I find it hard top believe that we need both. People have populated (almost) every part of the world for centuries, and have vastly different diets wherever you go. Indians are vegetarian in general, while I imagine that Inuits traditionally ate pretty much anything but plants.

<comment><USER10> We should probably look at dominant human type and dominant diseases in populations skewed to a particular diet to see what the effects are. I would be interested in looking at strength/muscle/fat ratios, how does their tooth decay, % of population affected by frequent vegetable/fruit toxins and % of population affected by gout and similar illnesses caused by excessive meat consumption.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The main point of the article appears to be that the vegan diet doesn't use the perennial cropland. Would be nice if they bothered to mention why. Are the perennial crops 100% feed crops and not something that humans can use, even in crazy reprocessed vegan food substitutes?

<comment><USER13> Land is not a problem if vegetables come to reign, hydroponics and aeroponics will easily substitute the inefficient land-use.

Tom et al. (2015) [1] also show that in the US the switch to a vegan diet would be less efficient. But it's natural, from an economic perspective, that existing processes are optimized for efficiency and low costs and given the high demand for vegetables and fruits there would obviously be a huge incentive to optimize the production processes and lower the prices.

Vanham et al. (2013) [2,3] show that EU would benefit from a vegan diet when it comes to water usage.

Overall, it's quite obvious that the medical costs of today are extremely large mostly due to overconsumption of animal products. It is unfortunate that they can be easily overconsumed and thus cause health issues. Diet that includes animals is much more destructive when it comes to dead ocean zones, rainforest destruction, species extinction and water pollution, being the biggest factor in mentioned issues.

[1]: Energy use, blue water footprint, and greenhouse gas emissions for current food consumption patterns and dietary recommendations in the US [http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y](http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10669-015-9577-y)

[2]: The water footprint of the EU for different diets [http://temp.waterfootprint.org/Reports/Vanham- Bidoglio-2014....](http://temp.waterfootprint.org/Reports/Vanham- Bidoglio-2014.pdf)

[3]: Potential water saving through changes in European diets [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412013...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412013002055)

<comment><USER13> why the downvotes? such a welcoming community. I seem to have replied to the wrong parent.

well, I'll leave then :(

<comment><USER14> It's not at all obvious that the "medical costs of today are extremely large mostly due to overconsumption of animal products". Some people blame sugar, which is made from plants. Some people blame fat, which in the modern American diet is largely vegetable oil. But human nutrition is notoriously difficult to study, so making strong claims about any specific thing being to blame is probably dishonest in some way.

<comment><USER15> USA eats excessive amounts of sugar, fat and calories.

3500kcal per person per day 150kg of meat per person per year (compared to chinese of 60kg, or world average of 40kg).

overconsumption is the word. there was not a hint of criticism of meat being "unhealthy" \-- it was mentioned in the frame of overconsumption.

<comment><USER14> 150kg of meat/year is 411g/day. Making the conservative assumption that it's all 20% fat ground beef (in practice it's likely leaner), that's only 1041kcal/day. This is well below the minimum calorie requirement for a healthy adult, so for it to be "overconsumption" there must be something unhealthy about meat specifically.

<comment><USER15> add to that 250kg of milk and 15kg of cheese and you'll soon have no space for any kind of beans, legumes, vegetables and fruits.

as I've said before, problem is overconsumption of everything and animal products take a huge part of that 3500kcal intake.

reducing intake of calorically dense foods is a good step towards battling the rise of killer diseases since most of them are obviously caused by unhealthy lifestyle.

<comment><USER16> Yes, I agree. It's all about balance and proportions.

If the average American counted everything they put in their mouth for two weeks, they would be surprised as I was when I did it.

I am from Brooklyn, and grew up and lived their and in Manhattan until my thirties. I was raised on a typical meat and potatoes, with the occasional over-cooked vegetable (no salads) diet.

I remained at +195 lbs and 19 to 22% body fat even when active. I had thought I had cut my caloric consumption down, but when I really counted it for two weeks, I was consuming 2500 to 3000 calories per day. The only reason I was not too obese was that I was very active. I was not a soda drinker or a fast food person. I did like my eggs and cheeses, and pizza, and burritos with cheese and sour cream. My cholesterol levels were very high, and my sugars were out of whack even if I looked healthy to my American friends, but fat to my SE Asian peers.

I have been living in SE Asia for 8 years now. For the last year, I have been living in the rice fields of East Java. Food, rice and fruits, are not transported, they are within reach of my doorstep. One of the benefits of locally-grown produce. This is why I think city rooftop gardens, hydroponics, and other tech will ameliorate some of the energy use in food transport.

I went vegetarian, and then vegan, almost 3 years ago. My weight has stabilized at 178 lbs at 14% body fat. My blood work was all good last I checked. I feel healthier and stronger. I still bench 190 lbs. which is 18 lbs over my bodyweight now, and was under my bodyweight before, so yes, I am stronger by that comparison. I can run further with less fatigue, and do more pullups. I make it a habit to not sit for extended periods (read standing up, squatting Asian-style with heels on the floor, or reclined on the floor).

My Mom always pushed for good posture. She would turn in her grave at all of the youngsters with craned heads down peering at their phones ;) That and shoulders back, and no slouching!

I think that genetics plays a role in some people's weight issues, but after having my own, and listening and watching my peers, a LOT is just diet. It has even been proven that exercise only 'polishes' off the last 10% or so. It is diet that has the largest effect. I still like exercise for the other benefits it has in reducing stress, helping me to sleep better, and maintaining or building bone, joint and muscle strength.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There is an implicit assumption that maximizing the number of people who can be squeezed on to the planet is "good" for humanity. I have never heard a reasonable justification for this. Anyone who's taken a long car trip in an automobile packed to maximum passenger capacity will intuitively understand the counterargument.

I'm more sympathetic to the idea of maintaining a population level within which people can live with some amount of dignity e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones#Inscriptio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones#Inscriptions)

<comment><USER11> I sometimes wonder if curing cancer and other diseases is such a noble cause. More people consuming more of the finite resources that we have. Its a difficult question, and I am thinking of lots of outliers as I type this. Extending a 70 year olds life by a few years is different from curing a child leukemia sufferer.

<comment><USER18> The only difficulty is deciding how to define "noble". Such questions appear hard because we vacillate between many different optimization functions, and in conversation we lack precision.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> One thing that is often overlooked is the impact on biodiversity. Nothing kills off as many species as converting an area to cropland. Turning it into an enforced monoculture destroys the habitat for all the other plants and animals that would usually live there.

Grazing animals can co-exist with other life, and some cases like forest grazing [1] (which used to be the standard way of grazing animals in europe and is slowly gaining traction again), has been shown to actually increase biodiversity.

So paradoxically enough, if what you care about is biodiversity and the livelihood of animals, you might consider reducing your consumption of cropland produced products like vegetables and grains in favor of meats from grazing animals.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvopasture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvopasture)

</comment><comment><USER20> Don't know why land use would be the determining factor for food access. If the goal is to maximize access to food, that seems like a food distribution problem, and not a production problem. Hungry people need cheap markets, not farms.

<comment><USER21> Indeed, we already produce enough food, that it would be toxic if it were all consumed. Meat production is a symptom of a food surplus.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Interesting article. I have long been of the opinion that a little meat is no big deal. However, the argument that we can feed more people with a mostly vegetarian diet vs a full vegan one doesn't mean going vegan is less efficient. If we want the average diet to have less animal products, then if some people completely give up meat it will be better than if they just cut down - they are in a sense making up for everyone else still eating their daily KFC bucket. Until most people are mostly vegetarian, we can still thank the vegans for taking one for the team.

</comment><comment><USER23> The article seems to focus more on instances where food production is a limiting factor. Land use is less of a problem in places where we have (collectively) enough food and people tend to focus more on the very serious environmental impact of large-scale agriculture. In the latter case, I would except a diet lower in meat to fare much better than the alternatives simply because it requires fewer acres to be farmed (or the same acres less often as the article points out) and thus has lower pollution output.

</comment><comment><USER24> Rather misinformed. Also, if farmland is the issue, has nobody in the science world noticed the magic of hydroponic cultivation? Vertical gardening is possible, a skyscraper has the footprint of a huge field when you use every floor to grow food. Can't do that with cows.

<comment><USER25> Why not? We do it with humans.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Interesting, if a bit vegan shaming :-p According to the research referenced a vegan diet is about 1.8x as efficient as a normal american diet. Seems pretty good for humanity.

Limiting meat consumption by ~50% would have a similar sustainability impact to a vegan diet.

W.K. Kellogg funded the research. Their grant: [http://www.wkkf.org/grants/grant/2009/02/foodprints-and- food...](http://www.wkkf.org/grants/grant/2009/02/foodprints-and-foodsheds- tools-for-evaluating-the-sustainability-of-dietary-patterns-and-the-geograp)

</comment><comment><USER18> Talk about a strawman. The world is no where near 100% vegan. The fact that all of humanity being vegan isn't the most efficient use of our resources has no bearing whether it's better for you, today, to be vegan.

100% of humans being cops is bad for humanity. Does that imply being a cop is not good for humanity?</comment>


How to replace HTML tags using regular expressions - <AUTHOR> http://www.abareplace.com/blog/html_tags/

<comment><USER2> Sorry, but I don't get this. If I want to switch tags in the source HTML then I would use Find/replace in my IDE or text editor. If I want to do something interesting with HTML tags live in the client browser then I would probably use the jQuery resources.

Maybe this is just some sort of demo of regular expressions - in which case it is mis-posted to HN.

</comment><comment><USER3> It feels very unnatural using regex to traverse HTML, however this seems like a somewhat decent solution. I doubt I'll be using it anytime soon, though.</comment>