Assassination Politics (1997) - <AUTHOR> http://cryptome.org/ap.htm <comment><USER2> Jim Bell is out of prison after 10 years and remains defiant and is posting again on one of his original fora, cypherpunks. The archives has Jim's recent posts:

[http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/](http://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/)

Subscribe to cpunks: [https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks](https://cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks)

Then there is CJ, Carl Johnson, who was sent to prison for supporting Bell. He is on Twitter among other places, also still promoting AP defiantly: [https://twitter.com/pro2rat](https://twitter.com/pro2rat)

Neither are interested in remaining anonymous.

<comment><USER3> Not just AP, but nuking people you don't like, too: [https://twitter.com/pro2rat/status/389410900832038912](https://twitter.com/pro2rat/status/389410900832038912)

<comment><USER4> This is the biggest issue with AP. Where down the line you stop, in assassinating leaders? With what criteria?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I got "invited" to federal court over this (I ran the mailing list archive at MIT which USG used as evidence). I was outside the US at the time, working on anon ecash in the Caribbean, so it was a request, not a demand. I met Jennifer Granick as a result, and learned the "if you can possibly avoid it, never ever set foot inside federal court" rule, which has subsequently served me quite well.

Jim Bell probably tops weev as an unsympathetic defendant.

<comment><USER6> _I met Jennifer Granick as a result, and learned the "if you can possibly avoid it, never ever set foot inside federal court" rule, which has subsequently served me quite well._

Would you be able to elaborate on that any further?

<comment><USER5> I was outside the USA, and it was just a request with no legal weight. I stayed on a tiny island in the Caribbean for the duration of the trial. (It wasn't a big deal to FBI, either -- I answered their questions through counsel, and the whole thing was essentially a formality. Jim Bell was posting to a public list for which I maintained public archives, so I had no legal or moral duty to him or anyone else.

I was 18 or 19, and almost went because it would have been a free trip to DC and potentially interesting, but the correctly raised concern is that I could have been ordered to remain available if I had been there. Not worth the risk, especially since I wasn't particularly helpful to anyone (I would have been fine with helping IRS CID when a guy was posting personal threats on people publicly)

I actually tried to explain to both sides that my archiver wasn't assured to be canonical; it was just a regular list subscriber, with a simple to discover email address, and no inbound filtering (since cp list addresses were distributed and constantly changing), so anyone could post random messages to it. Even worse, sending a forged message id with new content would overwrite the original message.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The saga of Jim Bell after the publication of that essay provides an excellent case study in why people like "Satoshi" have an interest in remaining as anonymous as possible.

<comment><USER8> I wasn't familiar with this, but Wikipedia knows of this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bell)

There are many excellent reasons for remaining anonymous or pseudonymous, both online and offline.

That being said, there's a vast difference between inventing a disruptive technology and advocating (even in jest) the killing of government officials.

I'm not taking the position that governments never unjustly harass disruptive technologists. Nor am I taking the position that the treatment of this particular jesting assassination advocate was fair or proportionate. Nor am I taking the position that government officials are incapable of crimes worthy of a death sentence [1] (think of the executions of Nazi war criminals after World War 2).

I'm simply saying that the situations of Satoshi and Jim Bell aren't really comparable.

[1] Although, even for people who really deserve it, I'd really rather not have death sentences recommended and carried out by the totally lawless process Mr. Bell jestingly advocated in a country I have to live in.

<comment><USER9> First of all, based on that essay, it's entirely plausible to believe that Jim Bell is in fact guilty of felony tax evasion (and possibly more).

However, it seems kind of crappy that the government response to a controversial exercise of first-amendment rights is to look really hard at you, dig up some dirt, and get you sent to jail. (Or make some dirt -- or at least trump up the charges if the dirt's not enough.)

(A similar revenge case may have been brought against the CEO of Qwest, for a more 4th-amendment/NSA angle; in this case the charges that may have been trumped up were insider-trading charges, and certain evidence about the government's motives was excluded from the trial by the judge. Here's an article we've discussed in these fora before: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the- switch/wp/2013/09/30...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the- switch/wp/2013/09/30/a-ceo-who-resisted-nsa-spying-is-out-of-prison-and-he- feels-vindicated-by-snowden-leaks/) )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you and contribute funds to pay an anonymous assassin, you've committed attempted murder. If the anonymous assassin succeeds, you can be tried for murder even if they never locate the assassin.

<comment><USER3> Interesting that the libertarian solution to someone violating your rights seems to be to violate their rights back in even more spectacular and violent fashion.

<comment><USER11> In a just world do you lose rights when you violate another's?

Most people would accept that it's moral for someone who's threatened with a gun by another to kill that other person, thus preserving their own life.

Many would still accept as moral the same situation, but where the assailant has a knife.

Many would again accept as moral everything the same, except instead of someone intent to kill with a knife, an assailant who only intended to rob.

Robbery is taking a thing against the wishes/desires/rights of another.

Some might argue that the government collecting taxes is robbery by that definition and thus they have the moral right to defend their property with deadly force. The government certainly will use force to ensure that it gets it's taxes. They won't shoot you but they will take away your freedom and the only way they can do that is with force or the threat of force.

At what point do you disagree with that line of thinking? Why? I'm not trolling you, genuinely curious.

<comment><USER3> In this case, there is no overt threat - the government employee is not holding a gun to your head, so you have no right to kill him.

Most people are not very even handed when they feel that their rights have been violated, so it tends to lead to escalation, and tribal/gang style violence, tit-for-tat.

It's much better IMO for a society to deal with disputes by legal means, not by stalking, harassing and killing each other, eg. if I shoot you in self defence, then that's 1 person's worth of productivity lost to the world, similarly if I harass you and threaten you at your home address (0.5 x PP?).

And yes, if you consistently violate other people's rights, or act with poor judgement, then you should lose rights. For example, if you're in the US and threaten people with a gun, you should lose the right to carry a gun, or the right to not be searched.

<comment><USER11> So immediate threats aren't OK but eventual ones are? I guess I can see how a person might think that way.

What if the US had a post-earning tax where the tax collector had to physically come to your house and demand the money that the government said you owed it. And he was armed. And he made the threat of violence personally rather than through a large bureaucracy? Would that change things? Why or why not? Again, not trolling but genuinely interested.

Agree 100% that people don't react well when they feel their rights are being violated. The loss of agency and personal sovereignty is a really big deal.

I'm with you on the loss of rights examples you give up to a point. I'm totally on board with situational loss of rights (I threaten you with a gun and you're in the right to shoot me) but I'm less in favor of doing that systematically. Mostly because of how safe things are these days (I think quite good) versus the potential for abuse (I think quite high).

<comment><USER3> I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns into arguments. The Rule of Law is one of modern societies great inventions, as long as all parties agree to abide by it. When they don't, organised opposition (eg. protests) and negotiation are usually far better at instigating change than randomly shooting back.

It's very much an i-win-you-lose mindset, I don't think it's really based much in reality and I'd rather not live anywhere near a society based on those principles.

<comment><USER12> > I'm not sure why people with a libertarian bent have to keep bringing guns > into arguments.

Because if someone chooses to not obey, they will eventually face a gun which they did not bring.

<comment><USER13> Surely the libertarian model amounts to something more productive than "the state will shoot you if you aren't ready to shoot them first?"

<comment><USER11> Yeah it's more about people interacting in a voluntary manner. The first and probably last rule of libertarian philosophy is that it's not OK to initiate aggression against others. So two individuals entering into a contract is OK but one person threatening another with violence is not.

The fact that the state/government has a monopoly on violence means that your interactions with them aren't necessarily voluntary. Many people don't have a problem with paying for roads, or some semblance of a military, or schools or whatnot.

But the very nature of a state is that if you don't do what it tells you to, you have no recourse. Someone might not put a gun to your head but you have to know that there's no negotiation.

<comment><USER3> _> you have no recourse ... you have to know that there's no negotiation_

Bullshit.

[http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-d...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil- disobedience-sanchez-gordillo)

<comment><USER11> If you perform civil disobedience you can and probably will get arrested. It happens all the time.

Choosing to break an unjust law doesn't mean that a judge will understand the injustice of it and let you go free, nor is there any assurance that jury would acquit you. That's what I mean when I say "there's no negotiation"

Once a police officers decides to arrest you all negotiations have ceased and they may do whatever the law tells them to, or whatever the law lets them get away with, or perhaps a bit more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I first read about "Assassination Markets" in this brilliant book, that delves into the old 90s cypherpunks mailing list (members which included Julian Assange and most likely the creator of Bitcoin, Satoshi):

[http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Kills-Secrets- EmpowerWhistlebl...](http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Kills-Secrets- EmpowerWhistleblowers-ebook/dp/B007HUD7LU/)

I still haven't read this full article, mostly just a summary, so here are my rough thoughts:

It seems like something straight out of an idealistic anarcho-capitalist society, but it seems to be dangerously crossing the line out of "non- aggression" and from skimming the article, seems full of flaws. For example:

> Satisfying as it might be to declare war on asinine pop singers, Bell has a > more civic-minded suggestion: Let's kill all the car thieves. He reasons > that a very small number of career criminals are responsible for nearly all > car thefts. If one million car owners in a given metropolitan area > contributed just four dollars a year, it would create $10,000 a day in > "prize money" for the "predictor" of any car thief's death.

Is preventing property theft really worth killing a bunch of petty criminals? I highly doubt it. This tough-love approach to preventing crime (especially to this extreme) has been a complete failure in the USA (see their full prison system or the war on drugs).

I'm all for preventative self-defense, but most of this enforcement bulldozes over root causes of issues (socio-economic, mental illness, etc). The goal should be compensating victims (ala [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice)) and long-term solutions, not creating some esoteric possibility of safety/morality via threat of violence.

Not only that, and just google "wrongful convictions" or "wrongful convictions death penalty". Accuracy of information needs strong information systems and due process (maybe the article discusses this?) but just having target lists + bets is wildly insufficient.

There has also been a lot of literature against private law enforcement (counter to many anarcho ideologies) such as by Novick in his book "Anarchy, State, and Utopia":

[http://www.amazon.com/Anarchy-State-Utopia-Robert- Nozick/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Anarchy-State-Utopia-Robert- Nozick/dp/0465097200/)

> TLDR: Protective agencies (judges/police) would be competing against each > other. That competitive nature combined with their intended role of > protecting us (and themselves) would lead to "an endless series of acts of > retaliation and exactation of compensations". Also he demonstrates why the > nature of both of the businesses would already create natural monopolies in > each local jurisdiction.

So even though I personally lean towards libertarian/decentralized ideas, public courts/judges is likely still the best solution and anonymous assassination marketplaces sounds dangerously flawed.

<comment><USER11> The idea of the assassination marketplace as I see it is to provide some means to balance the power of politicians. There's a powerful asymmetry at work in politics. Prosecutors can knowingly wrongly convict people and face no consequences. The President can authorize a temporary (or perhaps not temporary) war possibly resulting in thousand of deaths and the worst outcome he faces for it is not getting a second term.

Given that voting people out of office is not a powerful enough disincentive to cause them to behave morally I welcome new thoughts on providing better incentives. I'm not saying that Assassination Markets are necessarily good but there's an interesting idea there: how to provide the mass of people recourse to politicians in a manner other than voting.

<comment><USER15> Why a marketplace, though? One can already organize resistance against a regime one considers harmful enough to merit violent resistance, via militant groups. They can be right-wing groups like the militia movement or Greece's Golden Dawn, or left-wing groups like the Black Panthers or Germany's Red Army Faction. They do at various times assassinate prosecutors or politicians.

An assassination market seems to change the barrier to entry: rather than personal commitment, it's money. Is that likely to produce better decisions, when it comes to extralegal assassinations? I don't see a strong _a priori_ reason to believe that "people wanted dead by people who have money" is likely to be a good signal. That just seems like a formalization of the classic mob hit: if you've got enough cash, you can get anyone offed.

<comment><USER11> Yeah all valid points. That's one of the unintended consequences of the system: someone with enough money can short-circuit the "voting" process to get anyone killed.

Let me reiterate: There's a very interesting nugget in there. Namely one (possibly of many) ways for ordinary citizens to provide less asymmetric incentives to politicians and bureaucrats.

I'm really interested in alternative methods of achieving similar goals. Rather than death, could we perhaps institute a petition-based vote of no confidence that could be binding? I'm not sure how that would work but it would be a way to kick someone out of office or position sooner than a term limit and which would also be tremendously damaging to their reputation; something which seems rather important to politicians. Maybe you've got other ideas?

EDIT: To answer your question specifically the goal of a marketplace is similar to voting but one which isn't necessarily scheduled the way voting is. For example the guy after Obama could win by a 90% landslide, then immediately launch an all-out war against Iran, Syria and say Jordan. That might quickly turn the tide from 90% in favor to 80% against, but we'd have to wait at least 2 years to vote out a lot of people in the House, and four full years to vote the new President out, and a total of six years to get rid of people in the Senate.

Given that it's not terribly easy to make a living in the US and that many people have jobs, kids, elderly parents, etc. to prevent a sizable fraction of those opposed to various things from making a serious public statement like a march on Washington, lowering the barrier to entry MIGHT get us better outcomes.

<comment><USER16> > For example the guy after Obama could win by a 90% landslide, then > immediately launch an all-out war against Iran, Syria and say Jordan

Or, to turn that around the other way, something happens just after the election which causes 80-90% of the electorate to support an attack on Iran, Syria, and Jordan. The president after Obama, after some consideration and discussion with people in her/his cabinet decides to not attack.

With the threat of death over his/her head, might the president decide to make a decision, not based on deliberation and careful consideration, but just as a way to pander to the public lest s/he get killed. Is that a desirable outcome?

<comment><USER17> Anyone who finds the concept potentially appealing really needs to read up on pre-WWII Japanese politics, where a culture of political assassination, plus a major flaw in their constitutions, couldn't form a government without the Army and Navy's assent/membership, pretty much made the following ugliness inevitable. You really, _really_ don't want to let such a culture develop.

Paul Johnson's _Modern Times_ devotes a chapter to this: [http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-Revised-Edition- Perennial...](http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Times-Revised-Edition- Perennial/dp/0060935502)

<comment><USER18> This was a very enlightening chapter in Modern Times. I truly enjoyed Johnson's work, despite his clear (if transparent) bias towards British colonialism.

In general, private armies, political assassinations, and other forms of political violence seldom lead to good outcomes: other examples would be Lebanon during and prior to the civil and (not to Godwin this) Weimar Germany with government-funded but ruthless and private and political Freikorps, as well as KPD/SPD/NSDAP/etc... paramilitary organizations. Finally, if a government enacts and enforces laws and decrees contrary to the constitution and human rights in general (i.e., it is no longer a constitutional state), introduction of political gives government forces both an excuse and the means to start acting fully extra-judicially.

I'll note that I'm saying this as a individual with classical liberal/libertarian political leanings and as a strong supporter of a right to bear arms. My view is shared with by David Friedman, an anarcho-capitalist (a view that I don't subscribe to, but respect): [http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/07/in_case_of_revo....](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/07/in_case_of_revo.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm actually attempting to start such a market.

Here's a link: [http://assmkedzgorodn7o.onion/](http://assmkedzgorodn7o.onion/) If you don't have Tor installed you can also access the site by adding .to: [http://assmkedzgorodn7o.onion.to/](http://assmkedzgorodn7o.onion.to/)

<comment><USER20> You sir are literally going to become a case study in how to/not to do this sort of thing.

I have zero advice for you. Im sure you will be front page news soon enough.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> another cryptome/internet classic</comment>


The Data that Drives Customer Support for Over 600,000 Product Use Cases - <AUTHOR> https://zapier.com/blog/data-drives-customer-support/

<comment><USER2> Very small note, the Hively link is broken, I assume this is the right one: [http://teamhively.com/](http://teamhively.com/)

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the heads up! That's been fixed.</comment></comment>


"I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business" - <AUTHOR> https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ConstantinBacioiu/20171121/310012/Post_Mortem_I_thought_I_could_ship_at_least_700_units_to_stay_in_business.php <comment><USER3> Quitting your job with only 4 month worth of savings, with a new mortgage, to enter an industry known for its oversaturation, extreme competition, and high luck element for indies ? That's insane. Maybe I'm just risk-adverse.

That said, I think he actually succeeded, despite appearances. Managing to release a working game in 3 month, that actually got sales, is a feat in itself. The game will keep trickling sales, if he's a developer he can probably find a job in a few weeks and enjoy the now-passive income so I'm not too worried about him. Keep cranking out games like this one and the income will pile up.

<comment><USER4> It's not that I disagree, especially with the opinion that the gaming industry is over-saturated and that a lot depends on luck in that industry. But I'd say that 4 months worth of savings is in the better end when starting a new business. Most people who do startups or who otherwise become entrepreneurs have much less than that. And I think having too much of a cushion can lull you into a false sense of "doing something right" and that needing revenue soon can be an excellent motivator.

I was about to get married when I quit my job and started by myself, and my wife also had to quit her job because we moved country. And we honestly didn't really work out whether we were in a bit of debt or if we had savings for a few weeks. Sure, the first 6 months without pay were hard, and so were the next few years with low pay, especially when we had kids.

But if having 6 or 12 months worth of savings is a requirement, then you can rule out just about everyone except rich kids and upper middle class teenagers.

<comment><USER5> Maybe I'm just way too risk-averse, but 3-4 months of expenses in savings is what I'd consider a minimum _while in a stable full-time job_.

<comment><USER6> Yes, our mortgage advisor recommended a certain buffer amount in savings, and it was quite a lot. Either one year or 18 months, and I think that was combined income. That was just to ensure the mortgage could still be paid for a while if we both lost our jobs.

I'm personally planning for an exit strategy which will see me working for myself in about 6 months time. I have roughly one year's take-home pay and will ideally have 18-24 months by the time I quit.

<comment><USER7> It sounds like the mortgage advisor encouraged you to borrow a larger sum, so that she/he could get a larger commission.

There's no need to keep that much money in the bank just in case you lose your job and can't pay your mortgage. Most lenders (at least where I'm from) will arrange a payment holiday if you tell them you've lost your job. After all, they benefit by earning more interest whilst you're not making payments.

Of course, there are many other good reasons to want that much liquid cash in the bank.

<comment><USER8> 1 year in the bank (CD/savings) is for multiple reasons. Mostly it's for that really nasty scenario where there's a major recession leading to household job loss, when it can be particularly hard to find an equivalent replacement salary. And cash equivalent is important because selling assets in a down market is doubly expensive. Worse is a down market may make the mortgage lender even more likely to foreclose in the hopes of extracting some short term gains to offset losses in other investments. So you risk a losing your equity just by missing a single payment.

I certainly don't drop every dollar into my mortgage every month, it's just not worth the risk for a potential 4% return on investment.

<comment><USER7> I don't know if these exist in other countries, but some banks in the UK offer an 'offset mortgage', where any balance in a specific current account at the same bank deducted from the loan amount when calculating interest. The last time I looked, they were a little more expensive than regular mortgages, but would be worthwhile for someone who keeps 6 months or more of mortgage payments in their current account.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Just to add my personal data point of experience...

6 years ago, I took a break from doing webdev freelancing and spent around 3 months developing a kids app. At that point the money ran out so I released the app even though it wasn't entirely finished and quickly went back to doing web freelancing in order to be able to feed my family.

The app sold in small amounts but it was getting great feedback from the people who had tried it. In my spare time, I added to it and improved it and would pester bloggers to try it. Marketing beyond that isn't an option as the costs are too great and if you're lucky you make a dollar per app sold.

It was a depressing and disheartening thing to put something out there which you felt was good but almost nobody was buying but I realised it was a gamble up front. I didn't bet the farm on it. I bet three months wages and immediately went back to regular work as soon as I was in financial danger.

Even if your game is amazing, there's no way anyone is going to instantly and magically know about it. Are there really so many people spending every day looking at the Steam new releases ready to just buy anything that appears? At the Indie level, only word-of-mouth means anything and that can take a very long time to build.

As it happens, after 9 long months of very little sales, my app got a small write-up in the New York Times. The piece was by one of the bloggers I had pestered particularly hard to try it and later happened to have a one-off article published. Since then, somehow the word-of-mouth effect kicked in and I've been blessed to be able to work on the app full-time as my sole source of income.

TL;DR: Don't ever plan on anyone buying your indie-game on day 1 even if it's amazing.

<comment><USER9> P.S. [https://itunes.apple.com/app/my- playhome/id439628153](https://itunes.apple.com/app/my-playhome/id439628153) in case anybody was wondering.

<comment><USER10> For what it's worth my daughter has sunk countless hours into that game and its expansions, and loved every minute of it. Even though she now considers herself a bit 'too old' for them, she'll still occasionally fire them up and play.

<comment><USER9> Thanks! It's so nice to get actual feedback from parents. I live in the middle of nowhere and very, very rarely actually get to witness the app being used in the wild.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I feel like relying on a big splash release is an intuitive, obvious, and wrong approach. It's like a kind of waterfall methodology, where we should be doing iterative: Release something early to a limited audience, gauge reactions, fix the obvious mistakes and implement the feedback from players. Then keep doing that. If you can't even get a small audience (like a small gamer forum) to play, then you're already in trouble and should revise your idea. Once the game starts to look like something with mass appeal, start planning a real release. If you want a splashy go-live at this point then change the name of the game and do it as a clean new release, but this time you are releasing something that has been market tested and proven to have appeal.

Also, and this is encapsulated in the ideas above, don't freaking rely on family, friends, or acquaintances, to tell you what they think of the game. Not even other devs. Nobody wants to be the asshole that shoots down someone's dream. Again, if you can't even get actual players to try your game then you have big problems that you need to work on.

<comment><USER12> Can confirm. Tried big splash release, didn't work, gave up. Don't do big splash releases.

<comment><USER13> I recommend being careful from whom you take advice.

<comment><USER11> I'm sure everyone here would be really grateful if you could expand on this a little.

<comment><USER13> Not really worth it -- if I put in effort to write a substantial comment here, it's just buried in the noise of all these people who think they can give advice on how to build and launch a game.

<comment><USER14> Jon, there are many here who would very much like to hear what you have to say. If you think it'll get buried, please leave it as a comment to the main thread.

BTW, Jon Blow is the creator of Braid and The Witness. He is also working on Jai, a programming language.

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the nice comments.

But I only think this because I have had the experience many times in the past!

I feel the best place to focus my creative energy is on making livestreams, doing speeches, and just on day-to-day programming.

Putting effort into a posting here often doesn't take _too_ much energy, but it does take some, and I'd rather put it into something bigger than mostly toss it away.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> His sense of what games are "cool" wasn't in tune with the public. That's the cardinal sin. Pixel art dungeon crawlers aren't cool. It's as if he was a musician and decided to release a glam metal album today. Low budget, poor marketing, uncooperative bureaucracy - nah dude, none of that matters, you're just too in love with glam metal and people aren't buying glam metal.

<comment><USER16> That is called "targeting a niche" and makes sense if you can't compete against those big marketing budgets. Even the glam metal niche is still alive: hairmetalheaven.co.uk

<comment><USER17> Nothing wrong with targeting a niche, IF the niche is willing to pay a hefty sum for their needs. In this case he sold 90 copies on Steam, I think that every pixel art dungeon crawler fanatic on Steam has a copy now.

<comment><USER6> It's not a hefty sum at all, though. £5 (or the dollar equivalent) is nothing for a game _aimed at a niche_. If it's good enough, those 90 people would probably have paid a lot more, maybe 2 or even 4 times as much. The real issue though, I think, is that niche markets require recurring payments. So, as others have said, you either release a lot of games (or sequels) targeting that niche, or you move to some kind of subscription model, but that's very difficult with an indie game.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The country he mentions is Romania.

Well, bureaucracy is high, but like other said, no need to setup a company in advance. But, he saved anyway way to little money ( I found strange that he is counting in USD, since euro is de facto currency, besides the RON ) to be able to sustain him and an apartment.

Lessons learn: don't quit your job until you have some sale volume.

However, since he's in Romania, he will get a job in no time, there's a chronic shortage of good developers.

<comment><USER19> That highly depends on which city you are in Romania. If you're in one of the bigger cities (Bucharest, Cluj, Iasi or Oradea) then it's going to be ok. If not, then you're screwed, unless you can work remote. At least, that has been my experience.

There's also the thing that the average developer salaries are surprisingly low. They are well above the national average, but it's only the top 1-5% who really pulls in the money. The latest numbers I have seen is an average of 5300 RON net (1185 EUR). While the national average is at 2100 RON (485 EUR). The top 1-5% pulls in more than double the average: 10000 RON (2170 EUR), if not more. You're gonna need a salary like that to live comfortably.

It makes sense for him to count in US dollars because even though prices for apartments and cars are expressed in euros in Romania, the rest off the world is still very much US dollar centric.

<comment><USER20> I was in Cluj last year and was surprised to see an ad in the street saying "Are you a coder? Living in Floresti (a neigbothood)? Come send us a resume!".

Salaries are low compared to the rest of Europe (and the US). But it sounds _easy_ to get a tech job there.

<comment><USER21> Afaik Romania's IT is doing very well thanks to outsourcing. Oracle moved a big chunk of stuff there. Education is alright, salaries are low, timezone is European and authorities are accommodating; if you can get over the language barrier somehow, you get a good bang for your buck, probably better than in more expensive Czech or Poland. The country is hungry, so to speak; it's the new frontier of labour-cost arbitrage. Their only challenges are political stability and corruption.

<comment><USER19> You mean the language barrier between your own native language and English? Because from what I've experienced, most younger people in IT speak English very well.

EDIT: Yeap, Romania has been doing well. However, I'd argue that the biggest risk is not corruption. From the Romanian workforce's point of view, its becoming too dependent on outsourcing. As salary costs rise, it becomes less and less attractive for foreign companies to outsource work to Romania. Right now, in the city where I live in Romania, 80% of the IT companies are outsourcing companies. It's getting better and better, and most good programmers know to avoid the outsourcing companies as they generally pay peanuts and the work is boring and repetitive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I assume part of his problem is the Steam description - some of it reads like nonsense (the twist/USP makes no sense, "fervent goddess," "20 levels of pure mishap") and the rest is actually discouraging, describing it as "back-to- basics" (read: not many features) and literally has a section entitled "why you might not like this game".

Overall the concept is confusing. It's a "coffee-break game" but also a really difficult roguelike with permadeath? Why? People don't like to experience frustration in their coffee breaks, in my experience!

<comment><USER23> Yes... the pitch seems confusing, and the game itself seems uninspired.

I'd try a demo because this is the sort of thing I might like but I see nothing there worth paying for up front.

<comment><USER6> The first thing that rang alarm bells, for me, reading through this article was:

> I even released a small 5 level demo on itch (can't afford to pay steam's > 100$ fee to get a free version up on the platform)

How much larger is Steam's market than itch's? I'm guessing the answer is "very". How many conversions do they need for the $100 to pay off? 20-30? Seems like a no-brainer to me, and not even being able to afford $100 for what would almost certainly be positive ROI marketing is a pretty big blocker. Heck, I'd even front the $100 myself if I can get some kind of commission on copies sold :)

<comment><USER24> I am moderately familiar with video games but have no idea what itch is. I have a largish steam library though.

$100 dollars is nothing compared to dev costs. It should have been just counted as startup costs and the demo should have been up since day 1.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> There is a success hiding in what you call a failure.

You've built a fully working product in a short amount of time. It went pretty much as you have planned it. This speaks volumes to your abilities as a game developer.

You discovered that you are not that great at launching products, marketing, and sales. These are the areas you need to spend a lot of time improving.

It sounds like the plan right now is to get up on your own two feet, financially wise. Get a job that will cover your expenses, so that stress disappears. Start saving up again.

Start learning about sales, marketing, and product launches. They may seem like a second thought to you, but _each_ of these areas is as important as product development.

Another thing to consider is when to quit your job. In general it is said that one should have about six months of living expenses saved up, just in case. This is to cover a situation where you have a job and lose it unexpectedly. That six months of savings will allow you to spend time to find a new job.

To quit your job and self-fund, you need a lot more savings. How much is tough to say. But let's say you give yourself six months to break even in your game venture (no guarantees!), you need to plan an additional X months of savings to find a new job.

The good news is the next time, you possibly will not need to quit your job altogether. You already have a well-built game. Tweak it, redress it, and spend 90% of your time launching and marketing. Perhaps you can do it while you have a job and reduce your financial risk greatly.

</comment><comment><USER26> The main advice should be: not another pixel art game. Please. We have enough of these. Folks let's move on from the 1970s.

Also this is getting tired seeing honest, hard-working, self-motivated talented individuals push themselves into the same tried and tested crappy old corner of 'indie pixel art games'. It's quite difficult to see anything innovative or even remotely enjoyable from this genre anymore.

It's not Romania. It's not boring buearacracy. Its not the savings. Hell it's not even you.

It's pixel art crap that passes off as indie games. I hate AAA games but now I hate these indie pixel art games even more.

<comment><USER27> > It's quite difficult to see anything innovative or even remotely enjoyable > from this genre anymore.

You probably haven't seen Undertale then [http://store.steampowered.com/app/391540/Undertale/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/391540/Undertale/)

<comment><USER28> But surely this is part of the problem; Exceptions to the rules, that have succeeded due to an unpredictable combination of luck, timing AND developer inspiration.

Nobody should look at Undertale and say "Yes, this is definitely a good area/style/genre to go into to make easy success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> What gets me about this is the tiny scale of things. This is the first time it really dawns on me just how small of a success a game might have to be and still have the developer going (hard as it may be to reach 700 sold, apparently).

Honestly, this puts things into an entirely new light for me. I feel like buying, playing and then thoroughly interacting in the community of a game can really have personal impact on the indie developer.

<comment><USER30> That's when your developer is in Romania. If your game developer lives in bay area, that's a full order of magnitude of difference in cost of living.

<comment><USER31> The developer said he had four months of savings. And then he said $500 of expenses cost him a whole month.

<comment><USER32> And can you get by on $500 a month in the bay area if you don't live under a highway overpass?

In Romania you definitely can.

<comment><USER33> Definitely. Even in East Germany, I could get by on about €600 a month as a student.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> The biggest mistake was the assumption that he could ship 700 copies in a couple months. It seems this was based more on what he needed to pay the bills, not in any way tied to what demand would be. This is a fundamental mistake in setting business goals, product pricing, revenue estimates, etc. He could have scoped out similar games in terms of quality, complexity, genre, etc. and based his estimate off of this, or looked at other games conversion % of wish list to paid purchases.

</comment><comment><USER35> Yeah, quitting the job with no savings is a mistake. The things he could have done better are mainly

1) Proof that people want to play this game. Post the gameplay video on /r/indiegaming, see what people say. I remember the early days of Minecraft, people went wild for it, even though it was very basic.

2) Marketing. Tweeting is not enough. Submitting to reviewers is not enough.

On the positive side, he is fast and can deliver. I feel like he can develop minimum viable games even faster, just to prove the gameplay is addicting.

<comment><USER36> I quit my job a few years back with around $150k in the bank to fund my startup. A few months later, still nervous about leaving full time employment, I took a job interview with a big four. I received an offer with a base salary of $600k. I turned that down and committed to the startup.

A few months on, I receive a letter from the tax department advising that my previous employer provided corrected earnings information and that I now owed them most of what was left in my savings account. Grim news.

That big four job was already gone so I ended up in another interview process. Leaving that interview for the train station, I realised the coins in my pocket were not enough for the train ride home.

I set out walking, it was about 5 kilometers, 30c degree heat and equatorial humidity and then it started raining. I was in a suit. Strangely enough I found myself smiling. I thought "is this all you've got?". I actually felt happy... with nothing.

A riches to rags story by traditional measure.

<comment><USER37> 600k base salary? What type of position is that?

Developer salaries in the big four (I assume you mean Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple) are high but that is still twice what I normally hear (and have gotten offers for), and that's assuming you're talking about total comp. I'm not doubting you, i'm just curious what type of experience you need to get that.

<comment><USER38> If I had a nickle every time a HN commenter said they make 500k+/yr as an engineer, I'd make 500k+/yr.

<comment><USER39> Don't you know? Everyone on HN makes $500k+, drives a Ferrari and has a supermodel partner.

<comment><USER36> Funny enough, I now live in Bali, earn less than $150k, drive a $3k scooter and have a supermodel partner. She just made me pumpkin soup.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Of course given you can crank out a game that quickly it may have been better to not quit your job and release the game on the side. If it had been a success then quit. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

There are some strong positives here - you shipped a game! That alone is awesome. You built up a community. You were prepared to take a chance. All great things.

The harsh reality is the casual games market is brutal from a business perspective - that's not your fault.

Better luck next time!

<comment><USER41> I don't really see the same positives as you do here. I see someone who really didn't think through the decision to quit their job, may have lost their house over it, and who still appears to have not found a replacement despite running out of money already.

It also appears he would have launched the game without quitting his job, seeing as he seems to have done most of the work before he quit.

> The harsh reality is the casual games market is brutal from a business > perspective - that's not your fault

It's not his fault for the market being tough, but it is his fault for launching another rogue like 2d pixel art rpg, with no real unique feature into an over saturated market, with no marketing, and not enough cash to deal with a single business expense. He's lucky his girlfriend put him up afterwards, and this piece might even net him a few sympathy sales, but this is definitely his fault.

<comment><USER42> My hat is off to anyone who takes a big risk to pursue building a business. You learn so much, so fast. And sometimes you make it. I hope he tries again and leverages what he's learned.

Who cares about who's fault it is anyway?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I don't understand how people still think that just creating and publishing a game is enough to sell enough copies or make a living from it.

Maybe a few years back, that barely worked, but even then, if you didn't have an audience, your game never sold as much.

<comment><USER44> > I don't understand how people still think that just creating and publishing > a game is enough to sell enough copies or make a living from it.

Back in the 80s even the crappiest games sold relatively well. Infogrames made a whole publishing company out of it.

<comment><USER45> Back in the 80s the bar to create and publish a game was incredibly high. That market is nothing like todays.

<comment><USER44> Yes and no. Back in the 80s you could do a game on your own, from scratch, and it was not completely awful there was a good chance you could get a publisher - if that were not the case how would so many crappy titles find their way to the market back then? Sim City was one person's game. Another World was basically the work of Eric Chahi. And examples like that abound - leading to major commercial success. In 2017, sure, there are still folks doing games mostly alone, but it's rather small teams than anything else, even for indies. It's easier to publish things nowadays, but there's way more competition too.

> That market is nothing like todays.

Of course it's not. That was not the point of my comment at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is very much of a tangent, but I was really surprised by this part: "At the beginning of the year I opted to buy an apartment for myself. [...] The developer behind the apartment did not do his job properly and I found myself having to pay for many things out of pocket (like getting electricity)."

Where I live, nobody owning an apartment would ever expect _not_ to have to get an individual contract with an electricity provider and to pay for electricity based on individual consumption. There are some rental contracts that include a flat fee for electricity consumption, but I don't understand how an owner would expect not to pay.

Maybe the author expected electricity to be covered by other charges? But that would still be a misunderstanding on his part and not mean that the "developer behind the apartment did not do his job properly".

<comment><USER47> I read that as the apartment was a new build of some sort and had not yet been connected to the main supply. So he was then left with that expense as the owner.

I was surprised he paid for such an apartment, it sounds like he didn't get any sort of survey done before handing over funds/agreeing what would actually be completed before moving in. Combined with then quitting a job with so little savings I think this year will be a stressful but worthwhile lesson in planning and being more long term in thinking.

<comment><USER48> Hi, OP here! Just now got around to check Hacker News and reply. The thing with the apartment is, I've wanted to buy one for a while and in Romania there's a state aid that allows you to buy one with just 15-25% advancement. At the beginning of the year I had enough money saved up for the advancement and I was making about 1.5K euros monthly through work and another side-gig.

The thing is, a salary in Romania outside of tech is between 300 - 600 euros. With most people who have non-tech jobs (cashier, seller, construction) and even some it jobs being on the low end of that spectrum (even lower). I was making 4 times what most people make. My first job as a game designer gave me about 400 euros. With a 200 euro mortgage nowadays and savings it was a no brainer to finish up the game in the remaining month working full time on it and release it. However there were some problems on the developers side:

\- The building had power, via a contract with the local power energy and a written promise from the developer that he will handle all the legal documents to connect me to the power grid properly and handle all the payments.

\- The same thing as above with gas.

A few weeks ago I received an e-mail informing me (and all people who owned property in the building) that the contract they had with the power company will expire and we need to get our paperwork sorted out. Now again, I met with the developer and have in writing the fact that he was to take care of things. It turns out, he did but he just applied for all the permits and did all the paperwork but he didn't pay for anything. And I got word of this 1 week before the plug was about to be pulled. In that situation I had to run and pay for everything so I can keep the power up and work on my things. And gas since we all use gas for heating here during the winter - same story.

<comment><USER47> Jesus, that sounds like a nightmare! Hope you get it all sorted out. Probably even more expensive but any potential of suing the developer collectively with the other people? Sounds like they'll have annoyed a lot of people!

<comment><USER48> There are 5 other people in the same situations (the other ones had experience with friends/relatives on things like this and sorted everything out themselves). It's costly to sue, takes a lot of time and it's not a guarantee to get the money back (corruption and Romania go hand in hand). And even if I want to sue it's me vs him because the other people cannot afford the costs. Not worth it in the end.

Edit: There's an entire article to be written about buying an apartment here when the developer pretty much has a monopoly in this part of the city. For example, you can rarely find a already-built new building (that's not in shambles and will fall at the next big-ish earthquake) to buy. Most people pay for it in advance (before it's even built) and in the end can end up with a shit hole (it happens). And you pay mortgage on a building that's not even completed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> He simply did too many new things at once:

1\. finishing the game

2\. setting up a buisness

3\. marketing the game

4\. buying, setting up and moving into his own apartment

he did good with 1, but underestimated 2-4 and it went over his head. But now he has HN attention, so he should survive (or even prosper). But like others said, the whole thing sounded very whiney and attention grabbing..

</comment><comment><USER50> Sad as it may be, it's just such an obvious rookie mistake.

Just don't quit your job unless you have enough savings and good grasp on your finances.

It's so much easier to make things than to sell them, even more so from an unknown underdog on a crowded market.

</comment><comment><USER51> Next article in this series; "How a postmortem gave me enough publicity to help me survive as an indie game developer"

<comment><USER52> Exactly, this entire article is way too dramatic. The closing sentence with "I won't be able to survive this Christmas" did it for me.

If he's even a half-decent programmer - he'd be able to get a new job in an instant, keeping his business on the side, or doing freelance stuff with it - and maintain the game in his free time. This is way too much self-pity and begging for sales. He took a pretty small risk, it failed to pay off in the short term and now he acts as if it's the end of the world.

I took way bigger risks than that with a lot more money, and was fully aware of the possible consequences the entire time, even though I was in my early 20's. It managed to turn out ok-ish, but that took about 7 years of hard work, with the first 3 being on the brink of bankruptcy and 60+h work-weeks. Looking back on it, financial ROI was pretty bad, but it taught me a lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> _"... just getting the business prepared ended up costing me about 550 more dollars than I was expecting. That's one month out of the 4 taken out."_

You saved 2000$? OMG I would wait until 10000€ at least (Spain).

At the end, he says: _' I know I can get hired for a good salary again but I don't think it will happen this year'_.

What do you mean by good salary? Because if you say you have a low mortgage in a low cost country but that only gave you like 2000$ savings for the game...

<comment><USER54> The average salary for a developer in the top cities in Romania is around EUR 1,000 or $1,100 after taxes (that is about $2,500 in US before tax - yes, taxes are that high, actually a bit higher). A very good developer gets double. $2000 in savings are 4 months of living on the edge, not regular living.

Getting a full time job as a developer in Romania is extremely easy if you have any decent skills, there is a shortage of skilled people, but anyone reading the story will not hire him; he made absolutely all possible mistakes, including the ones specific to Romania (like his new apartment), so anyone that is looking for an example of how you can screw up big time can point to his article as an example.

<comment><USER55> > The average salary for a developer in the top cities in Romania is around > EUR 1,000 or $1,100 after taxes (that is about $2,500 in US before tax - > yes, taxes are that high, actually a bit higher).

Can you explain that ratio? €1000--€1100 is roughly equal to $1200--$1300, and some quick searches tell me income tax in Romania is a flat 16%. That ends up very far from $2500.

<comment><USER54> The income tax is one of the many taxes you pay; on average for $1 you keep after tax, the state takes $0.85 on the pay day and another $0.19 when you spend it. You pay 2 health taxes, 2 pension taxes, unemployment tax and some smaller ones. Only a part appear on the payslip, so most people don't know the real cost they have for the employer.

People think that Europe has free goodies - there is nothing free when taxes are 60-70%. The free health care is actually a tax that does not give any guarantee you will ever receive anything, you may die waiting for treatment and it happens a lot.

I have included as taxes everything the employer is paying for you to the state without you having any decision power. Nothing of what I mentioned is optional or giving you anything guaranteed. The pension is also a tax because if you live to get something in return or you die before retiring, all the money you paid during your life are lost. The beauty of socialism is that the state takes almost everything from you and then it gives you some back, making you dependent on the state's good will.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> I take no pleasure in saying this - and I wish the author all the best - <USER2> this is a story of someone who had deeply naive and flawed view on the practical realities of running a business and making a game at the same time.

Let alone shortly after taking on a mortgage and without taking the time to have the business largely underway before quitting your day job. That includes accountancy, which you really do not need to pay for at your scale in this day and age.

Hindsight is always 20/20 etc., but surely grinding evenings and weekends to complete that last month's worth of dev, and seeing how that went with a regular income as a back-up, would have been an infinitely better idea :/

</comment><comment><USER57> The target market is tricky. I'm in my early thirties and I feel too young to get any nostalgia from this stuff. Also I've noticed that as people age, they get less exited about wasting their time on games and more willing to spend money for something useful. So your target market is actually getting trickier as time passes.

But how about this:

There are probably around 50 000 people in Romania starting a business every year. And they experience almost the exact same problems than OP.

Build a web service that helps them. If you catch 1% of those people, that's ~400 people per month. If you can get them pay 5$/person, you get 2000$/month. You will have competition, but it wont be international. OP has extremely relevant experience.

I started a business last year and it's scary as fuck. Presenting the _relevant_ info I need in small packages would have been lot less scary than wading through 100 page pdfs and wondering if I ever emerge alive from the other end of the bureaucracy. This is prime target for gamification. You also get to be actually useful for lots of people.

<comment><USER58> >If you catch 1% of those people,

[https://successfulsoftware.net/2013/03/11/the-1-percent- fall...](https://successfulsoftware.net/2013/03/11/the-1-percent-fallacy/)

<comment><USER57> Good point.

I think there is essential difference between "100% need it but only 1% is going to buy it" and "Everybody wastes time playing games they enjoy, somehow magically 0,00003% of them will end up playing my game." Or maybe it's just the same fallacy over again.

Do you have any resource of making good market analysis?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> I think this is a common mistake developers make when creating products: when things start not working, blindly start to add features or improvements _they_ think will be good. I've been on that path myself and had the pain of (almost) going bankrupt.

Most (if not all) of this can be avoided if you spend time after development on getting feedback from customers, doing interviews, usability testing and most importantly trying to find the right commercial angle to develop the business. For example:

\- Is the game localised in different languages? \- Why targeting Linux and Windows, and not testing/developing on Mac or mobile platforms? \- Why not create a end-of-year sale or bundle the game with others for promotion?

</comment><comment><USER60> I'm pretty sure going to the top of HN will sell a nice amount of copies.

So while this might be an accurate account of what happened in the last few months and the suffering of the OP, it's also an effective, albeit obvious, marketing move.

</comment><comment><USER61> I'm pretty sure being number 1 on HN will give him some sales. So a post- mortem can be part of a good marketing campaign.

<comment><USER62> It has been for a long time, I mean part of it, not necessarily good. I'm glad people do it because it makes for interesting read. But the issue is that other (game) developers aren't your audience 9 out of 10 times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> Not being rude, but we've see this shit before and we've played a load of similar games. What made you think your retro style dungeon crawler was going to perform well?

</comment><comment><USER64> There are few things come to mind:

1\. Is it necessary to setup a company and accounting procedures before you even make your first sale?

2\. I think this is a great game, however the failure to launch is rooted on marketing: not enough marketing research, tweeting and emailing publishers are not enough. Who is your ideal customer? Where do they spend their time at? What features distinguish you from other competitors?

You can PM me for pro bono advice regarding digital marketing, it is far from too late.

<comment><USER65> I am very sure that you don't need to setup a company before releasing a game.

<comment><USER66> Especially if it's just a single dev working on it. You can just sell it without making a company.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> Not trying to sound mean, but I think something is wrong here. You can't just quit your job without any proven means to sustain yourself. It's like jumping in an ocean hoping not to drown even if you can't swim.

I feel like there was no indication whatsoever that would have compelled him to quit and focus on his own game(s). Ideally, he would instead have released the game while still employed, and then quit only if the game becomes a success.

</comment><comment><USER68> If you are poor, getting into business is always hard.

Why so many famous actors and musicians come from wealthy families? Because they can afford to travel from auditioning to auditioning and promote themselves non-stop.

Why do so many prestigious companies hire young only from wealthy families? Because they have non paid internships. Poor can't afford to get in.

When you can't afford to lose, risk taking requires real courage.

<comment><USER69> Absolutely the truth. Starting my business was the most stressful and intense thing I have done in my life outside of combat, and I don't even have kids to support. Staring down the barrel of rent and bills with _no one_ to back you up financially... It is incredibly intense. It seems common to have some kind of benefactor ready to throw a parachute if there's trouble. Which makes me think that's part of the reason I find I just can't connect with a lot of business owners out there. Hard to describe, but those people are from a different kind of substrate. In a similar way, I can sort of tell who is a combat veteran at parties.

<comment><USER68> My father gave me sizeable sum of money when I was starting my business. Enough to live several years without worrying about income.

I started to make 25 - 75% more profits just because I had the luxury of saying no and avoid orders that didn't move my company towards the goals I wanted it to go. Usually the ability to stay relaxed and equal in negotiations was enough to convince customers that I was a success. Everything was so much easier even when I didn't have to touch the money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> If you're going to quit your job, and put your savings on the line, do it for something that doesn't look so generic and uninspired.

</comment><comment><USER71> First of all, congratulations! You shipped, and in four months. This is already an impressive accomplishment.

There are certainly 4-500 people who would buy your game if they knew about it. The main problem you face as an indie (aside from completing your game, which you've done) is that no one knows about you!

So, part of development needs to be marketing. Months and months of marketing! You really don't want to just release a game and see what happens.

I would say -- don't look at this as a failure. You've shipped, and you've learned. You're very employable. If your worst case is to use this as a portfolio piece for your next job, then that's not too bad. And, what you've learned, once the pain and disappointment wears off, will make you that much more fearsome in your next business attempt.

Flip it -- you're a winner!

EDIT> Dude, you made money while you were sleeping. Think about that! That's true capitalism. Once you taste the forbidden fruit of product (vs. service) income, there's no going back!

</comment><comment> j-c-hewitt I think one thing you learn from selling a lot of different products is that when the market is oversupplied, the suffering of selling into an oversupplied market is not worth it. Selling stuff is just selling stuff and creatives often have trouble understanding that the value of their work to other people is not entirely dependent on their own individual powers: it's based on a bunch of factors that are entirely out of their control.

He could have bought socks wholesale and sold socks retail while huffing gasoline, causing major brain damage, and sleeping 16 hours a day and still made more money. He could have driven a truck for Walmart and made way more money while getting health and dental (probably not possible in his country but I am sure there are equivalents).

</comment><comment><USER72> First save up for at least a year, or better two. Then go down to half time on your regular job or ask for unpaid leave, in some countries the employer must say yes and then let you back, unless you're starting a competing business.

</comment><comment><USER73> Hmm, it looks to me like you got very close to 700 units on day one according to Steamspy. 696 units to be exact.

Link: [https://steamspy.com/app/725040](https://steamspy.com/app/725040)

<comment><USER74> i think we'll see better results in the next few days as the numbers update

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> In your country do you have to register the business if your business does not make any money? In UK you can make money for 3 months before registering...

I feel for you, I can only give you an advice to try to turn your mind into anything positive. You are lucky you don't have kids to feed, or pregnant wife to look after.

Robert Kiyosaki has written in 'Rich dad poor dad' book, that it's good to default before 30 so you learn the lesson and can become millionaire. You started your venture and you learned your lesson, don't panic and you will be telling this story as good anecdote with big smile.

<comment><USER76> If like me you are from the UK it can be hard to appreciate how well aligned our country is to starting businesses, the origins of protection for companies originates with corporate activity around the 13th Century with the [http://www.merchantsofthestapleofengland.co.uk/](http://www.merchantsofthestapleofengland.co.uk/) and since then, with corporations holding large amounts of wealth and power, UK law has developed in step with the demands of corporations, coupled with historically low corruption in government and civil service, beneficial tax arrangements for new businesses, a tax system that helps recoup losses on investments and high level of security we are well supported in starting businesses and should appreciate that others are not so fortunate.

<comment><USER75> I can compare how this system works in UK to how it works in other EU country and cannot agree more. In UK it's very simple and straightforward.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> "Every small little detail that the buyers wanted I took a look at it and did my best to serve their needs."

"The buyers" are mostly "one buyer", if he even bought the game at all, right?

That's devastating. You need to prioritize features, you cannot do every little thing probably not even the reporter really cares about.

And "DO NOT GO FULL TIME UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD A HUGE HUGE FAILURE! MAKE SURE YOU CAN SURVIVE SELLING CLOSE TO 0 COPIES."

That's not a "huge failure". That's expected. Many more than zero would be a huge success. Not the other way around.

</comment><comment><USER78> The games industry is a harsh mistress. With the number of games coming out, being a great game is not enough to make a "hit", even with modest goal of 700 sales.

I feel like he put a lot of faith on his effort instead of looking at the results. 187 e-mails and 10K tweet impressions does not translate into games sold. How many of those e-mails got a positive response? How many previews on Youtube, Twitch, other channels? From what I have read steam wishlists have a 1:6 ratio to sales on good days, but again it's all empty promises.

</comment><comment><USER79> He did succeed, only he didn't define success very well. 1\. His game got good reviews and did quite well. 2\. He set a target at 700 units. He should've set the target at x units / month. Or, even better: x% growth / month. 3\. Why did he quit his job? Why not make the game in your spare time and release it a year later? 4\. 4 months worth of savings is way too little. I sometimes get nervous with ~1.5 years of savings and I'm not aspiring to start on my own.

Seems like he was a little bit naive in the financials.

</comment><comment><USER80> A failure? Nope, this story talks about success. Yes, these are humble digits. But there is plenty of time to develop, improve and widen your offerings. Kudos to author for writing this.

</comment><comment><USER81> Reading the article on mobile the first actual link to his store page is at the very end of the article. I don't think he mentioned the name of it until the very end either.

Isn't it be better to start the article with something like "I made Ebony Spire"[1] which is a link to the store page or other part of a funnel then also have a few more links spread throughout the article? Obviously there is a Heisenberg like affect where maybe if the article is littered with links no one ends up liking it enough to share it, or they click through, say meh about the game and move on and fail build awareness of the game itself via this story about the developer behind it.

1: I'll help him out and save everyone here a search: [http://store.steampowered.com/app/725040/Ebony_Spire_Heresy/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/725040/Ebony_Spire_Heresy/)

 __Also one fun little rule of thumb for telling how many copies a game has sold on steam that I've picked up over the years: Multiply the number of ratings in its store page (10 for this game) by 50. So 10*50 = 500 copies sold, pretty close to his target. Now obviously that's a noisy indicator especially when the law of large numbers isn't on your side but hopefully he's doing better now.

</comment><comment><USER82> I wonder if he'd find supporters on Patreon. The way supporting a musician is like pledging to buy the next $1 single, would it be possible for him to make downloadable games instead of relying on Steam? His needs are modest, he loves making games and wants to devote himself to it, so it seems worth a try. I'm impressed how he wrote updates and did bug fixes, just to please game fans. With a little support, he could flourish.

</comment><comment><USER83> The idea of creating a spreadsheet and projecting future Sales projections are not where the focus of a new venture should be. Instead answer the challenge of how to create value for others. If the value (in a saturated market) was high then the sales would be the result. How to create value is the key to success not spreadsheet projections.

</comment><comment><USER76> He should mention it's essentially reboot of the classic Dungeon Master game, that was a very popular title, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_(video_game)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_\(video_game\))

<comment><USER84> I didn't see the game as that, but now that you mentioned it you actually pushed me into buying the game and finding out if your claim is true :) Dungeon Master was one of my favourite games growing up (Amiga version). Scared the crap out of me at times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> Reading this post saddens me, I think if he linked to a profile of his skillset and provided a way to contact him in the article he could easily land a few consulting gigs until he can stand on his feet again.

We have a group of strong developers here and many of us are looking for personal, i.e. I need people both to hire permanently but could also use a consultant with matching skillset for shorter term to back me up in some projects, and since I'm thinking it I bet there's dozens of others reading the article thinking the same thing.

Consulting is a solid way to earn a living while building up your product portfolio and it's a great way to stay independent while still having a more reliable income for basic needs.

<comment><USER86> > it's a great way to stay independent while still having a more reliable > income for basic needs

You should be careful with that -- you can get _nastier_ IP agreements through consulting firms than you might at full-time employment.

Similarly, even if it's not in the contract, you probably want your contracting work to be fairly orthogonal to your side projects, so you don't get sued for something by a client. It never looks good if you work on say, a networking project, and then a month later, your networking related product appears on the market.

<comment><USER85> I'm not saying join a consultancy but rather offer consulting services. Thus one can make their own contracts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> Should be on sale right now for say 4.99€ in the current black friday sale to get some exposure

</comment><comment><USER88> > All in all just getting the business prepared ended up costing me about 550 > more dollars than I was expecting. That's one month out of the 4 taken out.

Damn son, $550 won't last me a week – let alone a month! I should look into where the money is going, clearly.

<comment><USER89> Cost of living and wages are different around the world... ;)

He implies that he lives in Eastern Europe.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Hi everyone OP here. Just to clarify some confusion/mentions from the comments.

I'm from Romania. I used to make around 1.5k euros monthly from my last job + a small side gig. An average salary here is between 300-600 euros. My mortgage is around 200 euros. I was in the extremely lucky position to be the tech field and do so well pay-wise. When I took the decision to quit my job and finish my game the following statements were true:

\- I had money saved up to pay 4 months of mortage + living expenses + a few beers in the weekends

\- I was making games for about 10 years now and launched a few games before hand, smaller projects that had success (for me). I worked on bigger titles in the industry at a few big studios and even at small ones.

\- And my game was supposed to sell 300 copies in the first month so that together with my savings I could test the waters and scratch an itch I had.

I was in a position that few other devs are: I live in a low cost country. Again from the scores I heard in Seattle and other US cities 1 month of mortgage there would cover my expenses for a year! I had the benefit of being able to live off of 500 euros a month which ties back to the previous sentence. And I had a game I was close to completing (I started it last year but stopped when I went to my last job).

I targeted a small niche in a specific subgenre with a backup niche in the roguelike genre. Dungeon crawlers are indeed a small niche but not so small that I couldn't sell 700 copies. My biggest problem was having no experience with the way steam works right now (as opposed to the experience I had when I was freelancing a few years back after Gameloft).

If you google right now that average amount of copies and indie game sales on steam google points out 12,000. Not that it's not true anymore (because it isn't) but from where I was standing (and a few other devs who have other games in progress) moving 300 to 700 copies should be easy.

And I targeted my niche specifically: Older gamers (even developers), who don't care about the graphics that much and who want a short, fast game they could play during breaks (or in my case while the compiler is busy).

I went over this facts quite a few times and it sounded doable. Worst case scenario come January I would go in search for another job. And this is were I was wrong, it sounded way too good and easy. At worst I'd finally scratch steam off my todo list and just do software again.

Now I understood, I took a gamble and it turned out to be worse, way worse than I ever expected. I could loose my apartment and all the money I put into it. And I was afraid of screwing even more things up (when things go wrong, they go wrong it seems).

A few days before launching my games (and way after the dice have been cast) I saw tweets from other developers on why people shouldn't risk their lives and go full time. And I thought: "It can't be that bad". Turns out I can't just release a game nowadays and have it sell directly. I was banking a bit on getting covered by a few specific niche websites during launch (it didn't happen). And after I realized what hole I dug myself into I only had one thing on my mind: "There's a bunch of people like out there who still think it's 2012-2013 when you could move decent money in releasing a small, niche, game". And there are. I have been speaking to a ton of devs since the post went live that did not see the reality factor here. The whole point was to warn a few other people that it's not at easy. And I wanted to give me as an example because, again, I had a ton of things going for me: Low mortgage, I can live on peanuts and I don't need to sell a whole lot of copies + some savings and a backup plan come January.

And with all the things going for me I still failed so what chances does someone else living in a higher cost country to succeed with a similar plan like mine?

I said this a few times since release on twitter, I just wish someone would have woken me up from my dream. Those tweets from my friends/devs came too late for me. But maybe with the exposure this story is getting I can keep another passionate yet fool-ish dev from going through what I went through this month.

Edit: Small edit. The amount of devs who reached out to me with a game in production for about 2-3 years - part time for a few - is huge. And they are all scared because the math they did at the beginning does not line up with where things are today. Back then STEAM WOULD guarantee a huge amount of eyeballs on your game. Now all those eyeballs are split between so many releases. It's scary for many, especially those naive (like yours truly).

<comment><USER90> I bought a copy today. As I suspect did a lot of others. Hope it helps some. I look forward to playing the game this evening.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> Maybe Steam isn't the best distribution channel. Get creative. e.g. A big selling point of your "coffee break" game seems to be that you can easily jump in, step away, then resume later. Find someplace where people spend time bored and waiting, and get them playing your game there. It would sure make for a more entertaining alternative to those boring progress bars at websites where you download big files. Point is, find someplace your game will stand out as being unique and cool. Even if you have to go back to work for a while, hope you don't give up!

</comment><comment><USER92> I believe it is a business problem. A developer with not much knowledge of Go To Market thing. I would suggest you get a freelance Growth Hacker in revenue sharing or equity basis. Focus on target audience, do some digital marketing(which would cost zero like extensive blogging, super SEO, social media, go to gaming community and promote it), ask people in your network to buy it, etc. Try this and work on the feedback which you are already doing it. Am sure you will get to that 700 units to stay in business. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER93> Nowadays the easy part is "to create it". This part depends on the devs, team and can be fixed by $company.

The other part which the company has no control is to sell the game and create a big user base.

</comment><comment><USER94> I wonder why his game has no Steam trading cards, seems like a comparatively easy thing to add to boost sales a little bit and generate some money from Steam market transactions.

</comment><comment><USER95> I wonder if the developer would consider selling the game to another developer or studio.

7 * 500 ~= $3,500

It didn't go viral due to his very short runway, he could sell the game, or get a partner that could pay him for a stake in the company or game or something.

I always wanted to do game development (I've built a few toys in my spare time) buying ownership of a game could be fun, and I could take on the sales, and marketing, and web design and whatever else.

</comment><comment><USER96> Shitty situation but I mean, you had no plan. The five P's: "Proper preparation prevents poor performance".

</comment><comment><USER43> > All in all just getting the business prepared ended up costing me about 550 > more dollars than I was expecting. That's one month out of the 4 taken out.

Either I'm misunderstanding this statement or he really calculated $550 for a whole month. How or in which country is that enough to survive a whole month?

<comment><USER97> Romania - without paying rent - 550 USD will suffice for 1 month of daily spending. He mentioned that he has a low mortgage which probably splits with his girlfriend and for a 1 bedroom apartment can be as low as 250 USD per month. 750 USD is the average gross monthly income (before taxes ). Usually software developers earn double that.

<comment><USER43> Okay, but then it's just naive to think that it's enough to have the most minimum amount of money to survive. Before I'd quit my job, I'd make sure that I have at least x months of at least the average income on the side, plus calculating all the required spending for taxes and fees.

<comment><USER97> Totally agree with you. But based on my experience most Romanian people do not have a very good "plan ahead" culture. Usually they start something as soon as they have the minimum requirements met and that is because they really want to not let the opportunity pass, because in the past opportunities were very very scarce (in every domain) . And this lack of opportunities made a very deep dent in the Romanian culture.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> Give this post a little more exposure on the top of HN and he may well be soon past his target of 700 copies.

</comment><comment><USER99> Wow, opening a company wherever the author is is fucking expensive. Over here(UK) you can do it online in about 15 minutes and it will cost you about ~$20 for the registration fee and that's it, you don't have to do anything else.

</comment><comment><USER100> That's why you need a publisher in this saturated market. A love developer without any contacts won't get any reviews and probably won't every realize why people don't want to buy his product or review it.

<comment><USER101> How do you get a publisher?

<comment><USER102> It's structurally similar to getting an investor for other software companies: you find someone in the business of publishing and convince them that giving you money is a good idea.

Generally, this will be by pointing out "I was introduced to you by someone you trust, which is why you've read this far. I clearly have the capabilities required to ship a game which will sell a lot of copies. I have lined up a team which has done this before, professionally. We have produced some early artifacts which suggest that we're capable of executing on this in a more-or- less professional fashion. Give us a small amount of money now, plus more if we hit some milestones, in return for the lion's share of our profits from this venture."

The true answer for "How do you get a publisher given that you're an enthusiast who hasn't worked in a professional capacity in the gaming field before?" is "You don't, unless you already have a hit on your hands."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER103> This makes me wonder if indie game developers should get some experience in marketing games or working with marketers/people on indiehackers.com first before trying to launch their own game to make it more successful.

</comment><comment><USER104> > No one I've sent the game to wrote, mentioned or even played the game.

Shouldn't you pay to get your game reviewed? With all these paid posts in instagram i doubt someone big will want to review your game for free.

<comment><USER105> Paid posts on Instagram are advertising and need to be disclosed as such in many countries. Reviews are generally not paid for because it presents a conflict of interest between the person reviewing and the product they are reviewing which is detrimental to the people who want to know if they would like a product.

That said you can definitely pay for advertising through 'influencer' coverage. Probably out of the budget range of all but the most well funded individuals though. Which is part of the issue as most people assume making a good game is enough rather than looking at the business holistically and properly budgeting for marketing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER106> Commercial game development is expensive. Author went from indie dev to a company, just for a single game and risked all his savings for phantom success. He could of avoided all of this, just stay indie.

</comment><comment><USER107> Your girlfriend doesn't sound very supportive saying that you should get a job the day after you launch. Sometimes a few words of encouragement can be the difference between failure and success.

<comment><USER108> Sometimes being supportive means helping people face reality.

</comment></comment><comment> saverio-murgia He surely made a lot of mistakes and was too optimistic. However, I know the feeling. I don't know how many people bought the game because of this post, but I certainly did.

</comment><comment><USER109> $550 pays for a month of living and development expenses in this person's country? So he only saved up about $2000 to last 4 months???

</comment><comment><USER110> I can relate to this article. When I went into business for myself (writing an app, similar to his situation), I had 6 months+ of expenses, and stupidly, I was even willing to go into retirement money ($10k savings, $10k retirement). I was very foolish with money, and did not cut down lifestyle at all(after leaving a higher paying job). I regretted this, but have since made peace with it.

After 6 months, I had a series of days where the realization that I would not make it in time and needed to find a way to make money washed over me like a sea of fear. I quickly was able to find freelancing, cancelled my expensive lease I had just renewed(luckily and thank you to my property manager). I was making a small, but consistent amount of money per month. I cut expenses by 2/3 and had to move back home for a while, where I stabilized.

It's been over a year since this happened, and I've been making enough doing freelancing to pay the bills, and not much more, without taking unneeded time away from writing the app. I spend about $1300/month to live, all-in. During the first 6 months, I think I was spending $3k+/month.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have cut expenses, day one, freelanced day one(to remain neutral spending), and would still have some retirement and some savings in the bank. $10k savings was my emergency fund, but the only the only emergency I had was a "what to do next" crisis, where I treated it like a business runway.

All that being said, even without profitability yet, I am very happy I went this route, and I see so much profit and value for all involved, that I am just thankful things worked out, and are still working out, as well as they are.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

Also, just a random, jokingly stylistic note:

> My girlfriend realized what's going on and said: "Babe, you need to get a > job. You won't make it".

In the article, his girlfriend talks in all italics. He should have only italicized "won't", being the operative word. It doesn't really take away from the article, but I just think it's funny if she actually talks in italics all the time. Maybe he's trying to say she was being forward, which it is quite a forward statement, which she is in her right to say, if he's living with her. Very not ideal situation for him.

</comment><comment><USER111> Hopefully you got a few more sales after posting this. =)

</comment><comment><USER112> The dude had $2,000 in savings and was like, "yup this should be plenty." Post-mortem complete.

</comment><comment><USER113> interesting author never considers getting help for art and marketing.

</comment><comment><USER114> I bought a copy.

</comment><comment><USER115> Gamers are just like people:

The most marketed, hyped and memed games will make it. Folks play what everyone else is playing because humans don't really like to express their individuality nearly as much as we like to pretend.

</comment><comment><USER116> This guy is overreacting. He didn't fail that badly, he managed to create something that sold hundreds of copies. He said his experience was "soul crushing" and that being an indie dev is some hopeless thing now, yet you got a decent outcome for only a few months work and only a few thousand dollars spent. Just keep hammering out small games, only try to add something slightly unique to each one, nothing complicated, but enough that it would catch the attention of simple minded people enough that they would spend a few dollars for a novelty approach. People bashing the pixel art angle are very very stupid. People LOVE that stuff. The people who post here are generally smart and have high level tastes, which isn't your audience, and it doesn't need to be. You aren't gunning for critic approval or the next hot thing. You must realize that there are millions of people with questionable taste that want to be given the same tropes over and over again. You just need a slightly more novelty approach. You have a good thing going here, with a little tweaking you likely can make enough to survive full time in your country. Get a job for a while and figure out how you can bang out more of these types of games which take a few months to develop. Its probably good to ignore most of the negative advice you are getting here as well. Do not fall into feelings of hopelessness when you almost fulfilled your goal. You will get better which each successive project.</comment>


'Alien scene' of tadpoles feast - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8185125.stm <comment><USER2> I've always wondered why we wait so long to take the animals into captivity and breed them manually. It seems like as soon as a species looked like it might be in danger of extinction, a couple should be captured and breed- just in case.

<comment><USER3> Breeding two animals is practically useless - the gene pool would be too undiversified, and populations which have been brought back from the brink by such techniques have a bunch of problems.

More to the point, the numbers are overwhelming. Thousands of vertebrate species are threatened, not to mention plants and insects which are probably even more valuable to the ecosystem - for example there's no point saving the koala if eucalyptus goes extinct, because there will be nothing for the koala to eat.

See: [http://dodosgone.blogspot.com/2007/06/extinction-rate- estima...](http://dodosgone.blogspot.com/2007/06/extinction-rate- estimates.html) for some numbers.</comment></comment>


Brydge, the iPad Keyboard, Raised Over $200,000 on Kickstarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/552506690/brydge-ipad-do-more?-bridge

<comment><USER2> I know I gonna be downvoted for this, maybe I am wrong but I dare to say:

The success of this kickstarter project shows that there's no real use case for tablets except surfing/reading/consuming/procrastinating on the sofa and thus, people want their keyboard back—anything else can be done more effectively with a computer/notebook and/or a smartphone—there's just no room for a third device between notebooks and smartphones. Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the innovations in application and OS design (iOS and the lean ARM architecture could replace x86 designs) which came with tablets but I doubt that tablets with their clumsy form factor will take over the world.

I still don't get the success of these devices. It's so much more convient to type, to keep the finger movements small (with a mouse or trackpad or a small touch screen in devices like smartphones), to have the right viewing angle without holding anything warm or using ugly extra stands. Only when surfing around and reading sites I see a real benefit but then again: moving fingers to 'click' links or to go back is so much more work compared to a small notebook like the MBA and I spend the entire day with the Internet anyway, I have to force myself to do something else in the evening—I don't want to meet again the Internet, Facebook and Google when I should go out, meet friends and family. Or I just want to watch a movie and even this is totally cumbersome with a tablet (compare this use case again to a notebook like the MBA, I just put it on my lap lying in my bed and that's it: no stand, not getting warm, always the right viewing angle, I don't have to hold something).

Again: if you disagree reply instead of voting this post down—this isn't gonna be a flamewar—I just want to question, is there really a post pc era coming where tablets replace computers (I would rather guess that smartphones and _not_ tablets will fill the gap and could get the main distribution channel for software).

<comment><USER3> "The success of this kickstarter project shows that there's no real use case for tablets except [...]"

I would like to point out, in a non-flamewar-inducing manner, that your assertion above has some severe logical flaws. For example, the success of McDonalds does not show that there's no real use case for healthy food..

At best it shows that Kickstarter is doing very well and some people dislike the iPad on-screen keyboard enough to part with money for the option of having a real one occasionally. Keep in mind you can optionally put a keyboard on an iPad, but you certainly can't remove one from a Macbook!

<comment><USER4> That's two posts in a row that began with a disclaimer to avoid downvotes.

Not that I blame you since I'll probably be downvoted for pointing that out. Ahhhhhhhh HN.

You actually have a very good point about not being able to remove the Macbook keyboard. That clearly has to be a focus of Apple R&D in the future, to make an iPad like device that runs full MacOS and is convertible to usage with and without keyboard.

We cannot be far off that, multicore iPads with fancy graphics can't be more than... what, a year away?

<comment><USER5> > _make an iPad like device that runs full MacOS_

iOS is designed for touch, OSX is designed for pointer. What you describe is Windows 7/8 and I think this is a mistake.

I'd rather have iPad/iOS evolve to allow more things that we take for granted in OSX. Thinks like:

\- possibility to tell what's my default web browser, mail client, whatever. \- possibility for apps to schedule time- and resource-limited tasks (e.g for Sparrow to poll IMAP without need for push+giving my credentials to a third party) and maybe ability to deny that possibility to the app (similar to location). \- a full-blown _local_ Unix access so I can run zsh/vim/tmux/python/ssh/whatever, even if it's jailed in a sandbox/chroot. \- full keyboard navigation when a hardware keyboard is plugged in (e.g cmd-tab to work for switching apps instead of reaching for the home-button+screen is _so obvious_ ).

This gap is today filled for me by my MacBook Pro, and for others by connecting remotely to various machines via iSSH/Prompt. There's no technical reason not to do it on an iPad 3. But I'd like, say two to five years from now, to have such a shapeshifting device that I'd carry everywhere.

It looks like I would be interested in an Android tablet, but Android really is not _there_ yet at the core (and by far, for a multitude of reasons), while iOS simply _nailed it_ , deeply.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've watched their commercial about 20 times now - They hit 100% of the notes, symbolism, sex-appeal, simplicity, emotional appeal. Even the shot of them taking it out of the manilla folder on the white background is appealing to a particular audience that remembers when the Macbook air was introduced.

Forget about making keyboards; these guys have a future in advertising.

<comment><USER7> It's a very good (albeit overlong) copy of Apple's style of ad-making. However, the advertising industry values originality a bit more than you seem to think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is not that great tbh.

If you compare it to the Transformer Prime keyboard-dock solution:

* It doesn't provide a battery extension, yet has it's own battery.

* It connects to the iPad via Bluetooth, both using A2DP and as a keyboard. (So it uses the iPad's battery.)

* The iPad doesn't clip OR dock in the keyboard, it just sits in it, however secure it is. (A large enough force could knock it out or have it slip out.)

* The Apple symbol is sideways! (Serious business this one.)

</comment><comment><USER9> It's funny to me that there are so many people on Hacker News that can't imagine why anyone could actually want/like/love the iPad. Even if it doesn't do what you want/need, it is a serious impairment to think that its success is a fluke, or temporary. If you can't understand the world from the point of view of the non-techie consumers for whom the iPad is a life-changing device because of its sheer simplicity, then the things you make will suffer as a result. Learn to empathize with the rest of the world. These are your customers.

</comment><comment><USER10> That's funny, not a month ago, somebody on HN said "it seems the only successful Kickstarter products are all related to Apple devices". This goes a step further in that direction.

</comment><comment><USER11> So now you can integrate your own $800 iNetbook with lower performance and fewer capabilities than a $300 Ubuntu netbook from 2008!

<comment><USER12> Tell me then where I can get a 2008 netbook:

with gps, microphones and telephone.

with accelerometers, gyroscopes, compass and cameras.

a reliable solid state memory so I can use it on the go(jumping or waving it while moving).

10 hours of battery.

made in Aluminium and not cheap plastic.

Scratch resistant 2048-by-1536 resolution screen.

Please tell me because I always wanted this, unfortunately I bought a netbook on 2008 that have none of the above.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> A common thread of these high-grossing kickstarter threads is the production value of the demo vids.

My sense is that Kickstarter is less of a paradigm shift than it is another venue for great marketers

<comment><USER4> Yes, but this is something that's accessible to the masses. The first thing that pops to mind is the Kash Maxwell's Hot Dog Cart where the fellas just wanted to raise 3 and a half grand and get some exposure. The video was hilarious, and you know what, next time I visit my old lady's family in Rockford, IL, I'm taking the 30 minute trip over to Woodstock, IL to get a dang hotdog because they looked DELICIOUS.

Yes, some of these are bullcrap. As long as the premiums are fair or exchange for product, I'm okay with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Funny.. I think I saw the exact keyboard, already in production / for sale on something like akihabaranews

</comment><comment><USER15> When I first saw the photo I thought, oooh, a new MacBook Air!

Then I proceeded to laugh my socks off.

</comment><comment><USER16> No t-shirts? :-(

</comment><comment><USER17> $200,000 to research, develop, design and manufacture something like that is VERY VERY low.</comment>


Social Media Study: 60% Say LinkedIn Is Most Important Social Network - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/06/07/prweb8539533.DTL

<comment><USER2> The numbers posted by this survey of 3000 people seems ridiculous.

"Fifty-three percent frequently or occasionally use social networks to provide feedback to a brand or retailer."

There is no way that number accurately reflects the larger social network user base. They must have interviewed self important social network douchebags.</comment>