Install Ubuntu 20.04 LTS on MacBookPro14,1 - <AUTHOR> https://victorleungtw.com/2020/04/24/install-ubuntu-macbook-pro.html <comment><USER2> I used MacBooks with Linux starting in 2006 till the end of last year. That's when I finally gave up. I really love the hardware Apple produces, but we're at a point where I believe it's not feasible anymore to use Linux on MacBooks.

For the MacBook Pros 2016 and up I put significant effort into trying to get mainline Linux running as smoothly as possible by documenting and coordinating the efforts to have drivers for all internal devices [1], but just have a look where we're at over three years later: Audio doesn't work properly, Wifi does neither (expect for the non-TouchBar models, like the one the OP uses), hibernation is still somewhat broken and let's not even start talking about the advanced abilities of the TouchBar or support for TouchId. I could go on.

Models with T2 chip (2018 and up) are even worse in some regards and I believe it won't get better anymore. Next year we might see MacBooks with custom ARM SoCs and that's where I expect the driver situation will get even more dire. As Apple continuous to use more and more custom designed components, the effort for proper Linux drivers for such hardware only increases.

Most of these problems could be easily solved if Apple would simply make documentation for their hardware available. There are lots of great people passionate about running Linux on Macs out there, but reverse-engineering the hardware is what makes it really complicated to produce robust drivers for it.

I sincerely hope my predictions are wrong and Linux will still go strong on Macs in future as well, but for the time being I'm done with Macs.

[1]: [https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

<comment><USER3> Do the latest Macs still support running Windows via Boot Camp?

What would you recommend if I need to run both Linux and Windows alongside MacOS? Virtualisation? Or would I be better off using more than one machine?

<comment><USER4> Yes, absolutely virtualization works so much better. In fact you can boot Mac and run VMWare Fusion, or boot into Windows 10 and use either Windows Subsystem for Linux _or_ VMWare Workstation, and you will have a pretty great experience with Linux.

OTOH if you try to install Linux on any recent MacBook Pro, you are in for hours and hours of googling weird shit with like only 2 comments on forums you have never heard of, and you will still never get Wi-Fi, sound, and sleep/hibernation all working at the same time.

It's just not worth it. If you are so hardcore about software freedom that you demand to install Linux natively on the metal then you should absolutely not, now or ever, buy a Mac.

OTOH if you just need to like, build some shit that only builds and runs on Linux, and you have $200 — VMWare. I don't like VMWare in theory (the Monsanto of tech companies) but I sure like them a lot in practice.

I have needed a Mac/Windows/Linux laptop for my job for the past decade. In former times, I installed Windows and Mac OS X, and ran the latest Ubuttnu in either VMWare Workstation or VMWare Fusion.

But since 2016 I just use VMWare Fusion for both Windows and Linux. If you want to use a Mac, I am confident that's the "best" approach.

(For me, that means "runs all GUI and CLI programs reasonably well, with the minimum hours per year spend fucking with shit just to make it work. But if you actually need efficient GPU acceleration or real high performance (like not a web app or GUI app, but some kind of computationally expensive whatever) under Linux — well, then get something other than a Mac.)

<comment><USER5> I run multiple OSes as part of my job.

The small investment in VMWare Fusion was worth it but I still need some dedicated machines.

I just have a few issues:

Problem #1: Disk space requirements. I have a late 2013 MBP and windows gobbles up a min 60GB for the image, which is 1/4th my SDD. This is why I ended up buying cheap beige boxes for every other OS (or AWS).

Problem #2: Clipboard on VMWare is a trainwreck. Same goes for VNC and Microsoft Remote Desktop which I also use. My workaround is to use a text file on my router's USB drive so that I cut and paste through that in each OS.

\----> I would pay someone $1,000 to come to my house and fix my clipboard problems.

Problem #3a: The magic mouse blows chunks on anything but macOS. And even running Excel on macOS is impossible with a magic mouse. The left-right slop makes it difficult to scroll vertically without drifting diagonally... I don't know how macOS apps solve that.

Problem #3b: I would kill for a mouse with a real middle button, not a scroll+button. Unix/X middle click paste is a feature I sorely miss on macOS and Windows.

<comment><USER6> You know you can use regular mice on macs, right?

<comment><USER5> I explain how I'm running on 3 OSes and you actually think I don't know that?

<comment><USER6> > I would kill for a mouse with a real middle button

<comment><USER5> Your reading skills are atrocious.

> ... not a scroll+button. Unix/X middle click paste is a feature I sorely > miss on macOS and Windows.

<comment><USER7> Middle-click paste is one of X's many usability fails, especially since it's a convention adopted by no other UI. All the rest assume a max of 2 essential buttons.

Command-C and Command-V are just so much better. Learn to love them.

<comment><USER8> I don't know the implementation details behind this, but it also seems to me that Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V has a separate clipboard while middle-click-to-paste pastes whatever is selected. Makes no sense to me but I've tried to Ctrl-C / middle click and had issues before. Just one more thing that makes it worse.

<comment><USER7> On X, yes. Which makes X usability even more of a pain in the ass.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Buy a XPS-13 developer edition.

<comment><USER10> Honest question: Having Linux on a Mac a decade ago had sense has Mac hardwares were special enough to provide value, but now you have XPS-like hardware, why would people buy a Mac to install a Linux on it? Dual boot? What does Mac hardware have that others don't?

<comment><USER11> I've been trying since the Pentium III to use Linux on a laptop and have finally given up completely. I've tried on a variety of hardware, even with official support. Driver problems and battery life have always been an issue.

But... are we talking about the same XPS laptop? My wife's 13" XPS purchased ~2016 has had horrible reliability. The charging port died a long time ago, fortunately, it charges over USB-C. But now it no longer keeps a charge, won't sleep/hibernate properly (will cook with the lid closed), and more. A friend of mine bought the same one at the same time and his is also breaking down (keyboard problems).

I've tried to get her to switch to Mac, but she prefers Windows, so next time I'm buying her a Surface Laptop. HTH anyone considering the XPS.

<comment><USER12> For what it's worth, I've been running Linux on Lenovo laptops for years and years, and lately it has been fine. No weird tweaks, no special kernel builds. It just works.

<comment><USER11> Is the battery life any good? That has always been the Achilles heel for me. The battery life is like half or 3/4 of what windows gets on the same hardware.

Last I tried this was on a 2016 X1 Carbon.

<comment><USER13> Carbon X1 (6th gen ), I can get 8-9 hours light stuff and solid 6 doing work. That is pretty much equivalent to the macbook 13.

I have a macbook 15 for work and am extremely disappointed in its battery life, so I think the Lenovo matches up well.

<comment><USER11> Bizarre. I probably only could get 3-4 hours tops with that Carbon X1 (might have been 4th gen?). What distro do you run? Mine was running Ubuntu.

<comment><USER13> Fedora - currently 31

I do have tlp running on it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Just an FYI... You might want to add "balena.io" to your hosts file. I do like the simplicity of BalenaEtcher but it seems to still try to call home over tcp port 443 even when I disable usage statistics and auto-updates in settings. This may have been fixed in newer versions. (I'm using 1.5.45)

</comment><comment><USER13> Lenovo Carbon X1 - besides maybe Dell XPS line - this is the best small 14" laptop for Linux. I consider it a 13" macbook replacement. it is good quality. I have had zero issues with my 6th gen running Fedora. However, you will never get the trackpad exp of a Mac, but you get a GREAT keyboard on X1s to make up for it (and the trackpad is actually pretty good).

I wouldnt want to fight with Apple hw with Linux. Apple doesnt want to make it doable any longer...

</comment><comment><USER15> If you have a mid-2017 MacBook pro, these instructions are great: [https://nixaid.com/linux-on-macbookpro/](https://nixaid.com/linux-on- macbookpro/)

You can follow the instructions to create a patched Ubuntu installer, or you can just download the image.

</comment><comment><USER16> > _Using Etcher to create bootable USB drive._

For such a technical post, I'm surprised this is the recommendation. There are a million ways to copy the iso to the usb drive and make it bootable. The easiest in my opinion is:

        cat Ubuntu.iso > /dev/disk

<comment><USER17> And then overwrite your operating system. The main feature of etcher is that you can burn an operating system without worrying that you could brick your machine.

<comment><USER16> Good point, but at least in Mac I don't think you can easily write like that to a partitioned device that's still mounted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Somewhat unrelated but do we still need Docker Desktop for Mac to run Docker containers on macOS? Why is that, is it because Linux is needed? Couldn't Docker run containers natively using just macOS?

<comment><USER19> I don't have a clear image of how Docker behaves on Mac, but I had wasted a whole day trying to make it work on Windows WSL.

I'd suggest you virtualize a normal Linux host on your machine (under VMware for example) and run Docker there.

<comment><USER20> I'm almost certain you already read this guide [1], so I ask: where did it fail you? It definitely wasn't straightforward, but I managed to get it working fine in a couple of hours (Windows 10 1903, WSL 1, Ubuntu 16.04).

[1] [https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/setting-up-docker-for- windows...](https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/setting-up-docker-for-windows-and- wsl-to-work-flawlessly)

<comment><USER19> If I'm not mistaken, I hadn't many issues installing docker on WSL.

The problems started when I docker-compose up'd a pretty basic nginx-php- mariadb stack.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Or go to windows hyper-v manager, and click install Ubuntu image. And you're done!

(Ok, expanding the memory to a decent size is a little more work)

<comment><USER22> If you're ok with virtualized Ubuntu rather than native, it's just as easy to install on the Mac: [https://multipass.run/](https://multipass.run/)

<comment><USER23> I've somehow never heard of multipass.run before. It looks very similar to Vagrant though. Is there any reason to choose this over Vagrant?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> What year's release is a "MacBookPro14,1"?

<comment><USER25> Note that it is an identifier, the number indicates a generation, not a screen size. The answer is MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2017, Two Thunderbolt 3 ports):

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201300](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT201300)

This is a model without Apple T2, which probably simplifies Linux support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This might be great "because we can" or to recycle old MacBooks, but to me the whole point of having a Macbook is the tight, native integration with its hardware.

I pay the premium for Apple precisely because everything just works, and works well. (Barring the occasional bugs...)

</comment><comment><USER27> What you need is Microsoft like linux VM environment, with direct support by Apple. But even boot camp ... but competition might help. When developer moves to windows for its linux Env., it may trigger then to rethink about mac. But probably not. Sadly.

</comment><comment><USER28> I've installed it on a Macbook Pro 15 Retina Late 2013 everything works out of box.

</comment><comment><USER29> Are these fixes experimental? There must be a reason why they aren't in the main distribution.

<comment><USER30> I did a quick peek at the patches the OP is referring to, the code seems definitely experimental (no hard feelings towards the authors though!).

As far as I am aware of how the Linux kernel is structured, these patches would have to be submitted as BSP 'quirks'. Most of the ICs (such as the audio IC) that Apple used are standard components with Linux drivers available, but Apple often uses different pinouts or configurations requiring modified (patched) drivers to make them work.

In the current state I don't think the patches meet Linus's quality standards to be accepted into the kernel, but it shouldn't be too hard to polish that up.

Should be a fun project to work on of you are looking at contributing to the Linux kernel. You'll need basic knowledge of electronics and embedded systems, but it shouldn't be that hard. Judging from Louis Rossman's youtube channel the schematics for each Macbook board should be available.

Heck, now that I think of it: I would like to give it a try, if only I had a Macbook available to do this with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> For people who want to install Ubuntu on MBP14,2 or 14,3 (the new MBPs with four thunderbolt 3 ports) — this[0] might help. (It'll be probably trivial to update the article for Ubuntu 20.04 - just ignore the upgrading the kernel parts.)

It mentions adding the touchbar, keyboard drivers[1] and fixes for the non- working wifi[2], all without an external keyboard or anything. You can just boot up your Ubuntu virtual machine, execute some commands in the chroot environment & make an bootable ISO.

This gist[3] and this GitHub repo[4] might also be worth to check out - although it looks like a bit lagging in information (the wifi fix, added last November isn't reflected yet).

This is my command checklist (tweaked from this[0] to match my prefs), might be helpful for someone?

       ### check if pwd is ~/Download

       # ask password beforehand
       sudo -v

       # mounting iso and copying to current file
       sudo mkdir -p /mnt/iso
       sudo mount ubuntu-20.04-desktop-amd64.iso /mnt/iso
       mkdir customiso
       rsync -a --exclude=casper/filesystem.squashfs /mnt/iso/ customiso/
       sudo unsquashfs /mnt/iso/casper/filesystem.squashfs
       sudo umount /mnt/iso

       # chrooting
       sudo mount --bind /dev squashfs-root/dev/
       sudo chroot squashfs-root/
       PS1="(chroot) $PS1"
       LC_ALL=C
       HOME=/root
       export PS1 HOME LC_ALL

       mount -t proc none /proc
       mount -t sysfs none /sys
       mount -t devpts none /dev/pts

       # updating
       mv /etc/resolv.conf /etc/resolv.conf.bak
       echo 'nameserver 184.108.40.206' | tee /etc/resolv.conf

       ### change apt mirror list

       apt update
       apt upgrade
       apt dist-upgrade
       apt autoremove
       apt -f install

       # installing driver
       apt install git dkms

       echo -e "\n# macbook12-spi-drivers\napplespi\nappletb\nspi_pxa2xx_platform\nintel_lpss_pci" >> /etc/initramfs-tools/modules

       git clone https://github.com/roadrunner2/macbook12-spi-driver.git /usr/src/applespi-0.1
       dkms install -m applespi -v 0.1

       cat > /etc/udev/hwdb.d/61-evdev-local.hwdb << 'EOF'
       # MacBook8,1 (2015), MacBook9,1 (2016), MacBook10,1 (2017)
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBook8,1:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBook9,1:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBook10,1:*
        EVDEV_ABS_00=::95
        EVDEV_ABS_01=::90
        EVDEV_ABS_35=::95
        EVDEV_ABS_36=::90

       # MacBookPro13,* (Late 2016), MacBookPro14,* (Mid 2017)
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro13,1:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro13,2:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro14,1:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro14,2:*
        EVDEV_ABS_00=::96
        EVDEV_ABS_01=::94
        EVDEV_ABS_35=::96
        EVDEV_ABS_36=::94

       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro13,3:*
       evdev:name:Apple SPI Touchpad:dmi:*:svnAppleInc.:pnMacBookPro14,3:*
        EVDEV_ABS_00=::96
        EVDEV_ABS_01=::95
        EVDEV_ABS_35=::96
        EVDEV_ABS_36=::95
       EOF

       cat > /etc/udev/hwdb.d/61-libinput-local.hwdb << 'EOF'
       libinput:name:*Apple SPI Touchpad*:dmi:*
        LIBINPUT_MODEL_APPLE_TOUCHPAD=1
        LIBINPUT_ATTR_KEYBOARD_INTEGRATION=internal
        LIBINPUT_ATTR_TOUCH_SIZE_RANGE=200:150
        LIBINPUT_ATTR_PALM_SIZE_THRESHOLD=1200
       EOF

       ### edit wifi driver(https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121#c52)

       # exiting chroot
       mv /etc/resolv.conf.bak /etc/resolv.conf
       umount /dev/pts
       umount /sys
       umount /proc
       exit
       sudo umount squashfs-root/dev/

       sudo rm customiso/casper/filesystem.squashfs
       sudo mksquashfs squashfs-root customiso/casper/filesystem.squashfs

       cd customiso
       sudo rm md5sum.txt
       sudo find -type f -print0 | xargs -0 sudo md5sum | grep -Ev "./md5sum.txt|./isolinux/" | sudo tee md5sum.txt
       cd ..

       sudo xorriso -as mkisofs -r -V "ubuntu-for-mac" -R -l -o ubuntu-for-mac.iso -c isolinux/boot.cat -b isolinux/isolinux.bin -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -isohybrid-mbr /usr/lib/ISOLINUX/isohdpfx.bin -eltorito-alt-boot -e boot/grub/efi.img -no-emul-boot -isohybrid-gpt-basdat customiso/

[0]: [https://nixaid.com/linux-on-macbookpro/](https://nixaid.com/linux-on- macbookpro/)

[1]: [https://github.com/roadrunner2/macbook12-spi- driver](https://github.com/roadrunner2/macbook12-spi-driver)

[2]: [https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121](https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193121)

[3]: [https://gist.github.com/roadrunner2/1289542a748d9a104e7baec6...](https://gist.github.com/roadrunner2/1289542a748d9a104e7baec6a92f9cd7)

[4]: [https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

</comment><comment><USER32> Do you know of a way to get OSX key bindings on Ubuntu?

<comment><USER30> The key bindings are the least of your worries when trying to run Linux on a Mac...

But FWIW: on Linux key bindings are always completely customizable.

<comment><USER32> I'm running Ubuntu on my custom build desktop PC but with a wired apple keyboard. I also use Macs quite a lot. If I could get consistency between the two with key bindings it would be so good.

I'll have a dig for customising them

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Arent MacBooks overpriced because of MacOS?

</comment><comment><USER34> 2020 - Finally, the year of linux on the desktop.</comment>


Electrostimulation Study Gets Alzheimer's Patients to Recall Vivid Memories - <AUTHOR> https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/electrostimulation-study-gets-alzheimers-patients-to-recall-vivid-memories <comment><USER2> How did they tested that the recalled memories where accurate? (Had that guy went to Aruba ever?) The effect of recalling first a general and later the apparition of more detail is common in false memories.

More info: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_effect)

I'm afraid that someone will try to use this in a witness in a trial, and get another pseudoscientific source of falce memories.</comment>


Ask HN: Which are some Covid-19 simulation models that are accurate? - <AUTHOR> I posted this recently - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22981283
Also, there a model which Trump is following that predicts 80k American lives will fall by August 2020 to COVID-19, which is turning out to be prophetic.
Are there other COVID-19 simulation models which have turned out to be presciently accurate? <comment><USER2> It depends on your definition of accurate.

Most of the models have been revised as we get new information. Since there is still a lot we don't know about the virus, it is very likely that the models will be updated again when we get that new information. For instance, what if it recurs seasonally?

My opinion is that we won't be able to provide truely accurate estimates for something which is so new, so unstudied, and rapidly changing (policies or virus mutations). We can say stuff like the US death toll for the year won't be measured in millions, and most would agree that would be accurate with what we know now.

</comment><comment><USER3> they just released the code for the Imperial model that the UK apparently uses

[https://github.com/mrc-ide/covid-sim](https://github.com/mrc-ide/covid-sim)

Seems like a game of simcity, honestly. With so many parameters that are not very precisely known, it's easy to go into fantasyland. On second look, this model has not been used to reproduce the epidemiology of a previous , real world infection. weird

i think you re more likely to get accurate predictions with typical SEIR models

BTW this is the model the US uses (i think): [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.27.20043752v...](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.27.20043752v1)

It's statistical in nature, so closer to real world</comment>


Prince Harry and Meghan took my Instagram name - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47813521 <comment><USER2> Well, it feels weird to defend Instagram, but here we go. The important lines from the article are these ones:

> _Instagram confirmed to Newsbeat that Kevin 's handle had been changed in > line with its policy._

> _It allows it to make changes to an account if it 's been inactive for a > certain amount of time._

I tried going to the guy's new Instagram [1], but couldn't see any posts there at all. I visited his Twitter [2] instead, and except for a few posts he made from the exciting run in the last 24 hours, he hadn't tweeted since 2013.

I don't think they did a bad thing here — it's their platform, and they have some incentive to encourage a more lively and current community. Although it seems minor, one facet of this might be to help big users reclaim better names from the huge pool of defunct ones out there, especially given that Instagram has gotten so big that finding anything that's not a conflict is difficult.

\---

[1] [https://www.instagram.com/_sussexroyal_/](https://www.instagram.com/_sussexroyal_/)

[2] [https://twitter.com/Sussexroyal/](https://twitter.com/Sussexroyal/)

<comment><USER3> > encourage a more lively and current community

Ahh yes, nothing more lively and current than watching senior citizens coo over monarchs.

In all seriousness, this is just another step towards instagram being another bland reflection of the media fun house in which we all live: famous people get air time to pimp products and movements.

<comment><USER4> > watching senior citizens coo over monarchs

Nobody in this situation is a monarch or ever likely to be a monarch.

<comment><USER5> The term was used incorrectly, but to me it's obvious what they meant: non- functioning political celebrities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This goes to show that "your" handle on someone else's platform is never really yours. The only thing that can not be taken away from you is a domain name. Start hosting your voice via your own domain.

<comment><USER7> Domain names can be taken away too, especially ccTLDs. It is harder to seize a domain, but as we have seen time and time again with TPB, Sci-Hub, Wikileaks, etc. you can lose your domain if entities with enough power and influence want it seized.

<comment><USER8> I'm not sure that 'especially' applies to ccTLDs any more than gTLDs. Especially since most (all?) gTLDs are covered by the same jurisdiction as the .us ccTLD.

<comment><USER9> Actually gTLDs are restricted by their contract with ICANN (registry agreement (RA), search google for "ICANN RA"). ccTLDs however merely give lip service to domain registration norms, but as there is no contract beyond "this registry is yours to run" ccTLDs have far more leeway (public pressure sometimes withstanding) to do as they please. It is for reasons similar to this that a fair number of ccTLDs don't run EPP for example (running an EPP service is a requirement in the gTLD contract).

EDIT: further explanation of the gTLD registry agreement

<comment><USER8> In the context of accidental domain loss / attempted hijacking, absolutely agree on all of your points.

In the case of "entities with enough power and influence", I don't think any of the ICANN RA requirements make gTLDs any less likely to being seized than any ccTLDs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> A while back, an Instagram employee stole the handle from my buddy's wife. The only reason he got it back was because he had enough clout in the design community that he was able to get some press about it: [https://medium.com/@behoff/they-say-nothing-will- change-5c54...](https://medium.com/@behoff/they-say-nothing-will- change-5c546662abc0)

<comment><USER11> Github yanked away my 4 character username to hand it over to some hipster startup.

My account was 10 years old, no published repos, but consistent other activity. I don't have the desire nor the connections stir up a twitrage, but I'll certainly make their behavior known on HN.

These companies point to "inactivity", yet there is never any attempt to contact beforehand. The policy is merely a thin justification to do whatever the heck they want to suit corporate or personal employee whims.

That's SaaS (Surveillance as a Sharecropper) for ya.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> We may not have the full story here, but it doesn't seem like Instagram is disputing that they simply took it. I don't see anyone suggesting that they even _attempted_ to contact the guy first. Outrageously poor way to handle things. Also, at what point does an Instagram account become "inactive"?

<comment><USER13> And what were they going to tell the guy? It's not like they were going to give him a choice, or offer him restitution.

Not doing something like this leads to stupid stuff like having POTUS' handle be "real donald trump" (yes, I know choosing that handle predates his being POTUS, but you get the idea).

<comment><USER14> > Not doing something like this leads to stupid stuff like having POTUS' > handle be "real donald trump" (yes, I know choosing that handle predates his > being POTUS, but you get the idea).

I actually find this a charming reminder of the old days of the web. there's a certain populist quality to the idea that no one is important enough to snatch a particular username that some commoner took first. I agree situations like @realdonaldtrump are kind of silly, but it doesn't hurt anyone. anyone who actually has a large audience has a verified account so there's little doubt regarding who actually controls it.

that said, we really do need a responsible way to reclaim truly inactive accounts without enabling "reset my password via email" type attacks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The only surprising thing here is that it's not even that good of a name. I understand platforms yanking the handles of established brands and registered trademarks, but is "sussexroyal" really as good an Instagram name as Harry and Meghan can come up with, and worth the negative pr of stories like this one?

<comment><USER16> Is this even that negative PR? They're probably going to get more people going "oooh Prince Harry and Meghan are on Instagram I should follow them" than being outraged and quitting

<comment><USER17> I don't think it will fall on them, nor should it, they probably had no idea this was going to happen.

It's Instagram's responsibility either way. They could have said "pick another name or we can nicely ask the current owner for that one."

<comment><USER18> They is referring to the Prince and Meghan, correct? They have to know by now what happpened. They can give the name back. Or not use it at the very least. Otherwise why shouldn't it fall on them? Not knowing beforehand isn't an excuse to go along with it now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This isn't uncommon. Twitter is another prime example. Their "rules" state that you cannot (since 2009) make a three letter handle in your username, and yet @AOC was able to acquire hers. I don't have any problem with this but it does bring up the fact that there seems to be certain people able to skirt the rules because of "who they are". What about famous people getting verified on Twitter when the verification program was supposedly halted? It goes on and on, but the fact of the matter is "money talks".

<comment><USER20> When the incentives align they will surely bend the rules. It's in Instagram's and Twitter's interest to have the royal family and high profile politicians, respectively, active, happy, and easy to find.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Meanwhile, I've been emailing Instagram yearly for many years now trying to gain control of an account that has had 1 post and 15 followers for YEARS now, that is squatting on an account name that is the same name as a registered LTD that I actually own and use. Crickets.

<comment> sudosu- Try signing your email with: His Royal Highness Duke of HN NickBusey. You never know.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Twitter did the same thing to me a few years back. I registered @machinima back in 2006 or so and would semi frequently post links to interesting machinima videos I liked. After a couple of years I stopped posting for a while and I guess you could consider the account "inactive" even though my Twitter client was authenticated and checked it daily for activity via api (or so I thought). A few years ago I went to post something and found I couldn't log in.

Never got an email about it or any form of contact. They just up and gave my account to the machinima.com company.

<comment><USER23> Have you tried getting it back now that machinima.com is defunct (albeit much like the original content that got them off the ground)? I think rooster teeth probably don't want to be associated with that brand anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> > "I thought 'What's that all about?' He said 'Look on Instagram' so I looked > on Instagram and suddenly my handle wasn't @sussexroyal anymore it was > @_sussexroyal_

They could have at least explained the situation to that person and allow them to choose a new handle. I would be furious if my handle suddenly had "_" as prefix and suffix. What next, "@xXxsussexroyalxXx"?

</comment><comment><USER25> The daft thing is there are plenty of alternative names they could have taken, that are genuinely idle accounts, and arguably better names:

sussexroyals (there are two of them after all) thesussexroyals (more grammatically correct) thesussexes (as they are commonly referred to in the press) harryandmeghan (has only posted once since Dec 2017) meghanandharry (ladies first!)

and so on...

<comment><USER26> I'd imagine the Prince's staff contacted Instagram to talk about having an account set up, and maybe suggested the name.

Instagram people were probably star struck, and salivating at the idea of _millions_ of eyeballs and media interest on the site, that they pretty much waived anything through.

I'd imagine a lot of the top brass at companies would do anything for a slice of celebrity/royal action, it's a gold mine and worth a lot more to them than some peon from Reading who just lurks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> You own nothing. You are nothing.

In the 90s, Mr. Nissan was able to fight and keep nissan.com. That feels like a thousand years ago. Now everything is governed by private "policies" that amount to "we can do anything we want".

I don't like the new world at all.

<comment><USER18> Hasn't Mr, Nissan spent a ton of money fighting? It's great that it was and is an option for domains sometimes. But 99% of the time, you're not going to be able to fight anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Not cool, but nothing new. Distrokid was blatant enough to brag about it in his newsletter in 2017. I sent a polite email voicing my concerns, but I never received more than the auto-reply.

Distrokid email: [https://www.dropbox.com/s/8tw90s0n8urj9j3/distro- email.png?d...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/8tw90s0n8urj9j3/distro- email.png?dl=0)

My reply: [https://www.dropbox.com/s/ym9oxvwprkqm9ph/distro- reply.png?d...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/ym9oxvwprkqm9ph/distro- reply.png?dl=0)

</comment><comment><USER29> Somewhat related, I find it unusual that a lot of SaaS companies get you to choose a subdomain during the trial signup process. Sometimes I just want to try out a service and kind of feel bad squatting on a somewhat premium subdomain so easily. I'm launching a product soon and it made me think about different ways to handle this, especially wrt to shorter (more premium), and trademark/brand related names.

</comment><comment><USER30> Fuck royalty. The whole idea is stupid. Actually, as far as that goes, fuck "celebrity worship" in general, royal or otherwise. IMO, too many people spend too much time worrying about what some "famous" twit is doing.

<comment><USER31> You and me both can sit and here and wait and see if they break up and chew on their shared instagram name. I wish them the best but to me they are just another celebrity couple and any moment could stop enjoying each other.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> > What I'm trying to do is keep tweeting therefore they can't take it if it's > active.

Good luck with that, Twitter has a long history of taking handles on behalf of brands and celebrities...

<comment><USER18> Even for visibly active ones? Any reference or example?

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> [http://www.montypython.net/scripts/HG- peascene.php](http://www.montypython.net/scripts/HG-peascene.php)

</comment><comment><USER34> Droit du seigneur for the internet age.

</comment><comment><USER35> That family has been stealing from the plebs for hundreds of years, why is this newsworthy?

</comment><comment><USER36> I deleted Instagram a few weeks ago, one of the best decisions I've made.

</comment><comment><USER37> It's well known that if you know people at Instagram you can highjack almost any handle. There is plenty of stories out there documenting the theft of prime handles like @firstname or 3 character handles.

</comment><comment><USER38> I remember reading about this in their TOS years ago... I think they normally outline in under taking away names to give to rightful owners. (If you're name is @apple for example ).

This seems like a poorly handled extension of that power.

But- truly just an example of how your use, data, name, etc on these services is really just at their whim.

<comment><USER39> Who would the "rightful owner" of @apple be? Maybe the one who registered it in the first place?

Or does that old instinct of defering to power make you want to give in to the presumptuous request of a large entity?

<comment><USER40> The word _apple_ has other meanings besides Apple, Inc, but it is a registered trademark in the USA. Since instagram is based in the USA, it's pretty clear that Apple, Inc is the _rightful owner_. Whether or not they should have a trademark on such a common word is a separate question.

<comment><USER41> It's only a registered trademark for their business field. For example Apple Records also has a registered trademark on Apple in the USA. So by your measure they're just as valid a rightful owner.

<comment><USER40> It's pretty obvious what the most well-known trademark is. I don't think Google would be giving ibm.dev to the International Brotherhood of Magicians [1]. Here's an example as it pertains to domain names [2]. Of course Instagram is different and there's much less oversight, but they would probably do something similar, where they first verify a trademark, and if multiple parties have the same word in the trademark, determine which.

"2.5 Does putting my trademark in the Clearinghouse mean that I automatically get my trademark as a domain name in all new gTLDs?

No. The Clearinghouse verifies and maintains information from many jurisdictions and classes of goods or services, and many parties may have legitimate rights in the same trademark. Allocation of domain names in a particular TLD occurs according to the registry policies for that TLD."

1: [http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4806:9gr...](http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4806:9gr6yj.3.9)

2: [https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/trademark- clearinghouse/...](https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/about/trademark- clearinghouse/faqs)

<comment><USER42> > It's pretty obvious what the most well-known trademark is.

The apple growers association of america?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> We should be pushing for decentralized self-sovereign identity to become mainstream

</comment><comment><USER44> Someone made an offer on sussexroyal.com yet? it look available...

</comment><comment><USER45> just imagine what the world would look like if everyone(private person or company) exercised all the things they can lawfully do at all times.

</comment><comment><USER46> No guilty party in this tale. But don't see how you can now use that name without having some social justice warrior somewhere foaming at the mouth with righteous indignation.

</comment><comment><USER45> wow, what a dick-move - even by fb-standards.

</comment><comment><USER47> Typo in title: should be Prince not Price

<comment><USER18> "Price" is far more fitting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Love the typo, I guess everything can be bought for a price.

</comment><comment><USER49> Their platform, their voice. It's not part of public domain. Unreasonable outrage from the HN crowd.

<comment><USER50> Just because you can do something does not make acceptable to all people.

What you are talking about is essentially moral relativism. Most people see that as dubious.

Just because one entity sees something as right does not make it objectively right.

Can Instagram do this? Yes. Should everyone be okay with it in virtue of that ability? That comes down to personal opinion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> The concept of royalty in 2019 is so repugnant. Fuck the crown and their hundreds of years of theft from the people.

</comment><comment><USER52> So I guess you don't have any ownership over a URL path component on somebody else's server when you're not even paying for that hosting. Not particularly surprising...</comment>


Introducing Airbnb Verified ID - <AUTHOR> http://blog.airbnb.com/introducing-airbnb-verified-id/ <comment><USER4> Just did a bit of digging.

They use this company for the verification process of ID scanning.

<http://www.jumio.com/netverify/>

I wonder if this has been brought on due to a friction of fraud that they are facing as they've grown. They've actually done a great job of keeping fraudulent activity under-hush, but I'm sure it's been a major problem...

Also, one of the main issues with a marketplace that fulfils the service/product at a future date is the uncertainty that the home owners actually exist. They've done a good job of limiting their exposure to risk on this by putting in lots of mechanisms in place.

(Reviews / Free profession photography / Payment holds to owners until arrival / Social connections / Phone verification / CC Linking )

All of these help create a strong recognition of trust/security (that isn't just an illusion like many other sites).

I'm just not quite sure what additional benefit this offers. (I'll assume it's to protect the home owners more, by requiring guests who place a booking to confirm their identity)

AirBnb don't store any of the verification documents either. They are all stored by Jumio, who also check them against goverment documents to confirm a match. [2]

[1] : <http://www.jumio.com/netverify/try-it-now/>

[2] : <https://www.airbnb.co.uk/support/question/453>

<comment><USER5> Identity is a basic problem for any online transaction. For instance, Paypal's biggest innovations were around fraud prevention.

Jumio is a great solution to bridge online transactions and offline verification (physical IDs, passports, credit cards).

If I had to speculate, I suspect Jumio gets disrupted by products that attack the root problem by no longer needing verification - more specifically, virtual currencies. But that feels like a distant prospect right now.

<comment><USER6> I don't believe virtual currencies solve the verification problem. On the contrary - anonymity plus lack of chargebacks is a huge incentive for fraud. You can either drop anonymity or establish a trusted third party escrow-like service. In either case you need some kind of verification.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is awesome. If I had a room to rent on AirBnB I'd probably require this.

What I'd _really_ like is a way to make an Airbnb listing "friends only" -- i.e. FB friends or FB friends of friends, alums from my school, YC people, fellow members of SAF, etc. Any number of filters. Or have price differentials for them.

<comment><USER8> Friend-only AirBnB sounds awesome.

<comment><USER7> Might also be fun with trades, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > _matching it to offline ID documentation, such as confirming personal > information or scanning a photo ID. The name provided by both channels must > match for verification to succeed._

Sorry, but there is no way i'm going to scan my passport, id or driver license and send them. Why ? Because they are my life... In some countries, like my motherland Turkey , if someone , somehow has them they can get loans from bank in my name, get credit card or worse set up a firm. I have no reason to "trust" airbnb and their partners in this case.

What could be a better solution ? Well i could accept facebook validation + verification code via $1 credit card charge ( like paypal does ).

<comment><USER6> > if someone , somehow has them they can get loans from bank in my name, get > credit card or worse set up a firm

On top of that they can establish a verified ID with AirBnB and any similar companies. This is recursively scary :)

<comment><USER10> The "they" we are talking about are AirBnb employeees, not some random people. It's no different than giving a copy of your passport to the bank teller - <USER2> theory they could also use your info for bad purposes, but it's much less likely than a random person.

<comment><USER11> The "they" could be AirBnB employees, but it was probably a reference to hackers breaking in and copying those files from AirBnB servers. The fewer servers that have a scanned copy of your passport, the better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I just completed their alternate system, which lets you identify yourself by taking a quiz of things 'only you would know.' I had to identify the last 4 of my social, the state it was issued in, how long I've lived at my permanent address, and which of a number of roads was closest to it.

That's not very strong assurance. You can easily look up on a site like Facebook where someone was born, which gives you SSN location. All sorts of companies have access to the last 4 of your social (ironically, the only unique part of it - the rest can be inferred based on where and when you were born). You can also look up how long someone has lived in a particular place. I literally used Google Maps to answer the roads question, as I'd never heard of any of them before.

I don't know why anyone would go through the trouble of opening an Airbnb account in someone else's name, but it's certainly possible (and easy to 'verify' using the tool I just described).

<comment><USER13> > You can easily look up on a site like Facebook where someone was born, which > gives you SSN location. All sorts of companies have access to the last 4 of > your social (ironically, the only unique part of it - the rest can be > inferred based on where and when you were born).

Back in the day, infants didn't usually get SSNs, since the IRS did not require them for taxes, you didn't need them for insurance plans, etc. If you're in your 40s or older, you probably didn't get a SSN until you got a job. (I'm over 50 and I got mine when I got my first job -- using my SSN to determine where I was born won't get you within a thousand miles.)

<comment><USER12> Interesting.

So, the IRS issues everyone a unique identifier at an unknown point in time. Separately, a federation of businesses decides it needs to share records to estimate a customer's likelihood of conducting business in good faith. This federation needs a globally unique identifier that can be used to collate these records into a single profile. It decides to use the IRS's unique ID, which means a whole host of companies require you to provide this identifier in order to do business with them. The credit profile also establishes a system whereby someone else's identity can be more useful than your own when it comes to procuring services.

Most of the companies that require a credit check treat their business with a particular individual as confidential. Over time, they establish customer support call centers and require that the customer authenticate with a shared secret before providing support. Most key their records off this globally- unique ID (your social security number), and it becomes the industry norm for the second half of this ID to be the shared secret you use to verify your identity.

So, you've got a shared secret that we expect to be fairly well-protected, as someone can use it to falsely identify themselves as you and rack up bills in your name. The second half of this secret is freely shared over the phone, as its presumably useless without the other half.

Meanwhile, the authority that issues this ID is completely separate of the consumer credit system and uses it for a completely different (and less consequential) purpose. It changes the policy by which it grants this identifier, whereby the first half can now be fairly well predicted with a known piece of information (where an individual was born).

As a result, the infrastructures of many critical institutions presume that a secret they don't control is fairly well-guarded, and the inertia of their old decisions leads them to freely pass around the only part of the secret that is still hard to guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _> "Starting today, Airbnb will require a random 25% of users in the USA to go through the Verified ID process."_

Is this for hosts, guests, or both? And does this only apply to new users? I suppose they're measuring the impact of the change by forcing it onto only a random 25% of people in one market.

<comment><USER15> I had to go through all of this back in January when I used Airbnb to get a house in the Valley for a few days. I was just then creating an account - <USER3> I had to connect my Linkedin profile + upload an ID. It didn't like my Italian ID card but it liked my (also Italian) driving license (which was a surprise - it's in horrible condition). I was surprised at the depth of the verification (not in a negative way) - but I thought this was for everybody. Was I somehow selected as a tester, or maybe they found my usage profile suspicious (Italian citizen, resident in Germany, creates an account and immediately tries to book a place in California)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> "There is no place for anonymity in a trusted community."

 _Ahem._

<comment><USER16> I strongly disagree with that post, and I find the closing words very grating (and even a bit condescending).

> Trust and verification. They just go together.

Trust and authentication are _not_ the same thing, even if they are related concepts.

And there _absolutely_ is a place for anonymity even in a so-called "trusted" community - in fact, those communities are the place where anonymity can be the most powerful (and also the most effective, or most needed).

Even if this doesn't apply to AirBnb's situation, I find it incredibly irritating that they try and frame this behind some 'Anonymity is bad, and without verification there's no such thing as no trust' philosophy, instead of owning up to the fact that AirBnb apparently has some issues with fraud/abuse, and this happens to be their solution to fixing it.

<comment><USER17> Transparency may not be necessary for trust, but it goes a very, very long way towards establishing it. Anonymity is the opposite of transparency.

<comment><USER14> People trust anonymous systems, voting being one of them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> How would you measure if requiring a verified Id is a good/impactful change? Has there been a problem with pseudoanonymous people causing problems that this is trying to solve?

I'm not opposed to it, but it does take away some of the splendor of AirBnB'ing, maybe it's just me but when I stay at AirBnB pads I like to feel like I've left my day to day work life behind and can now be who I want to be.

</comment><comment><USER19> Personally, I think this is great. I'd love to see other marketplaces offer this service (Etsy, eBay, Craigslist) or _better yet_ I'd like to see new startups take this angle as a way to disrupt.

I understand there's a place for anonymous transactions. I just think there's an even bigger place for trusted transactions.

<comment><USER20> Elance has verified contractors, they even call you (they did for me, and I'm in Uruguay).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> After using Airbnb for quite a long time, I've gone back to hotels precisely because of this. Holding up my passport next to my face for 10 seconds at a hotel is sufficient to get me checked in, while my Airbnb hosts never bothered to check my ID. Now a photo of my ID is going to live on some third party server with questionable security for ever. Choosing "Confirm Details" yields an empty list, so I'm SOL.

If somebody swiped your credit card, you can get a new one with a new number, and call fraud protection right away. Almost nobody laughs at you because your card is ugly. Not so with any form of government identity.

What that will really work for me is an obscenely high security deposit set by the host.

</comment><comment><USER22> I don't have a problem with scanning ID. I'm not sure if I'm understanding the online-verification part, though. It says that you can verify the online part of your identity by linking your account to Facebook, linking your account to LinkedIn, or receiving AirBnB reviews. I already have AirBnB reviews so this part is checked green for me already.

But does that mean new AirBnB users will have to have either a Facebook or LinkedIn account? If it becomes mandatory to be verified before you can use AirBnB, they wouldn't be able to use the review route to verification, would they?

</comment><comment><USER23> It seems to be the AirBnB's effort to build more and more community into the platform puts the business at odds with its ultimate growth driver (replacing/substituting hotels). This just feels like another step to move the company further away from a hotel-replacement and more towards an online community, which feels more niche.

I'm not sure what the solution is to making hosts feel more comfortable with strangers, but stuff like this just makes me want to use the platform less.

<comment><USER24> Introducing this sort of thing goes towards addressing the chief regulatory complaints about AirBnB, which is that it's actually about sharing and community, not just a way to arbitrage on exemption from (legitimate) hotel and zoning regulations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I guess more people are verifying then they had counted on, because the system appears to be down.</comment>


Lebanon plans to charge for WhatsApp calls - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-economy-calls/lebanon-plans-to-charge-for-whatsapp-calls-minister-idUSKBN1WW1ZA <comment><USER2> This reminds me of Morocco where Whatsapp was blocked by their ISPs after the state-owned phone carrier lobbied them to do so. (" _The decision to block the VoIP had initially been made in an effort to maintain profits for telecommunication companies._ ").

Looks like the blocking of VoIP ended in November 2016: [https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/11/200573/moroccos- anr...](https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2016/11/200573/moroccos-anrt- confirms-end-voip-blockage-permanent/)</comment>


Chinese room argument - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room <comment><USER2> For everyone who considers the Chinese Room argument obviously wrong (like me), here's two versions that are much stronger and might still make you uneasy:

In Greg Egan's "Jewelhead" stories, every person gets a computer implanted in their brain at birth, which gradually learns to imitate the input-output behavior of the biological brain. At some point they switch to the jewel full time and throw away the biological brain, becoming immortal. That's seen as a fact of life and people don't question it much.

In one of Wei Dai's nightmare scenarios, we ask an AI to upload humans in an efficient way. Unfortunately, since humans can't introspect into the idea of "I'm conscious" very deeply, the resulting resource-optimized uploads just have a handful of hardcoded responses to questions about consciousness, and aren't in fact conscious. Nobody notices.

Of course, both cases are problematic only if you can "optimize" a human brain into something else, which would mimic the same input-output behavior without being conscious. The trouble is that we can't rule out that possibility today. Humans certainly have a lot of neural circuitry that's a side effect of something else. Some of it might get optimized out, the way a human in a sealed room can be optimized to nothing at all. To rule out a "Disneyland without children" scenario, wishful thinking isn't enough, we need to properly figure out consciousness and qualia.

<comment><USER3> In Wei Dai's "nightmare scenario", what of value is lost?

If "consciousness", whatever that is, is completely undetectable by external means and has no effect on human behavior, I think we can safely ignore it.

<comment><USER2> That seems like a misreading of the scenario. Consciousness certainly affects behavior, like making me say "I'm conscious". The question is whether the same behavior could be reproduced by a more efficient program that isn't conscious, and if yes, how do we make sure uploads are conscious.

<comment><USER3> If the same behavior (including debating consciousness in internet threads!) could be reproduced by a more efficient program that isn't conscious, how do you know _you_ are conscious?

Come to think of it, these threads do get a bit repetitive - are we _sure_ this hasn't already happened? ;)

<comment><USER2> Some of my internal experiences are hard to express in words, like how the color red looks. It seems overconfident to claim that such experiences don't exist or don't matter.

Consider a person who is completely committed to keeping some secret (e.g. that they saw a UFO). Their input-output behavior is the same as a person who doesn't know the secret, but the internal experiences are different. Do you think the AI in charge of optimizing uploads should be free to discard such differences?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The most famous example of an entire category of fallacious arguments about consciousness:

      1) construct a hypothetical brain on an implausible substrate
      2) note the implausibility of the substrate
      3) therefore consciousness is magic QED

See also: "China brain"

</comment><comment><USER4> From the article, in "Replies":

The fact that man does not understand Chinese is irrelevant, because it is only the system as a whole that matters. Searle notes that (in this simple version of the reply) the "system" is nothing more than a collection of ordinary physical objects; it grants the power of understanding and consciousness to "the conjunction of that person and bits of paper" without making any effort to explain how this pile of objects has become a conscious, thinking being. Searle argues that no reasonable person should be satisfied with the reply, unless they are "under the grip of an ideology".

<comment><USER3> Searle's note applies equally to an "ordinary" brain, which is just a collection of ordinary physical objects (atoms).</comment></comment>


Yelp Wi-Fi - <AUTHOR> https://www.yelpwifi.com/ <comment><USER2> Like we need more spam in our life.

Even when I go to a restaurant, I don't need their special offers to go back again. If I liked the experience, I will return myself, if I didn't, no offer would make me. And unless I am in the airport or out for a long time, I don't use the local wifi if it asks to create an account.

<comment><USER3> The other day I went to a small restaurant and paid for my order with a debit card.

A minute or two after leaving I got an email on my personal Gmail thanking me for my patronage, even though I had never been there before, and I hadn't offered my email...

Except while I had been next door at a meetup and used their Wi-Fi. I guess they had the hotspot setup to send an email after you left the network.

Gave me a bit of a spook thinking a small restaurant would go as far as to look get my email based on my card information, but it was still an unwelcome use of my email.

Not only did they send that email, but they subscribed me to their mailing list without any indication on the capture site.

<comment><USER4> In these cases, please _please_ don't click unsubscribe. Just mark as spam. Even if gmail helpfully offers to unsubscribe for you: resist the temptation. It puts the incentives in the right place. It's the only way to fight this, and it's a damn good one.

I urge everyone to stop clicking unsubscribe, ever, unless you explicitly subscribed to something. [edit: Even that automatically enabled "subscribe to our mailing list" nonsense, or "click this to not subscribe", or whatever stupid games they play on us these days. No. Don't let them joke you around.]

Not saying you didn't, just wanted to take this opportunity for a cheeky PSA :)

Ironically, conditioning people to respect the unsubscribe button has, probably, insidiously led to more spam making it into people's inboxes than anything else in recent memory.

[edit: to answer the Why not both? ] Because incentives makes our world go around. Make no mistake: They don't give a damn about you or your inbox and will do anything for those sweet sweet engagement and conversion metrics. Unsubscribe makes them feel the pain (this is the jncentive), and it helps them not take your inbox for granted.

Making them eat bad spam rep score is the only weapon we have, to make them treat our inbox with respect. Use it.

<comment><USER5> What incentive are you talking about ? Why is unsubscribing a good incentive ?

And are you saying when you mark an email as spam, your mail provider will give them a bad spam reputation score ?

<comment><USER4> Clicking unsubscribe relies on gentlemanship instead of self motivation to work. It relies on people respecting you and being kind, rather than doing what is best for them. This kind of system rewards unscrupulous behaviour (not respecting the click, subscribing you by default , etc).

It is a common mistake in organising workflows involving humans. It works beautifully on small groups but collapses under its own weight at scale. You will always be swimming upstream.

If you will allow me to take some liberty, this is comparable to communism vs capitalism, in practice. Loosely. :)

And yes: clicking spam makes google lower their reputation , eventually spam holing all their email directly (= disincentivising bad behaviour ). This means that now, suddenly, the company and you have the same goal: not to send you email you would consider unwanted. Currently, they can get away with spam by calling it a mailing list and adding an unsubscribe button.

<comment><USER5> I'm not sure which system you're comparing to capitalism and communism to be honest.

Capitalism reward some dishonest behavior by its nature, because the ultimate reward is money (thinking of tax evasions, stealing..) . Communism also rewards some dishonest behavior, but not the same kind (it's more like work the least to earn the same)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Your customers connect to your free WiFi with an email address, social media profile, or phone number"...Yeah, that's gonna be a no for me, dawg.

<comment><USER7> I suppose a burner email address will serve

<comment><USER8> Can you suggest a email provider.

It's getting harder, as there are only a few remaining free email provider. And if you don't login, some delete the account after 6 months, or some don't have proper spam protection in case I want to open the inbox and find a registration confirmation mail.

<comment><USER9> Besides burner e-mail services, Fastmail allows you to create addresses on the fly with subdomain addressing. E.g. if you are using firstname.lastname@example.com, and have subdomain addressing enabled, you can use email@example.com where foobar is a random subdomain. I like it for a couple of reasons:

\- You can easily set up rules on subdomains to send e-mails to separate folders or to discard them.

\- You can find out who is selling your e-mail addresses.

\- It is less trivial for spammers to abuse than plus addressing.

<comment><USER10> I do something similar with Fastmail, except instead of subdomain, I use the prefix, e.g. firstname.lastname@example.com, email@example.com. I have a generic one (email@example.com) for certain use cases but in general I use the specific ones so I know who may have sold/"lost" my email address. It's a lot better than Gmail style plus addressing since some input websites disallow plus emails or have terrible email systems that can't properly recognize it.

The only thing I wish that would go further would be to be able to flag a certain email address to be set to "not exist", so that if someone emails it, it gets bounced back as undeliverable. I set up something similar on my own server a while back using Postfix and Postgres to deal with holding the emails/undeliverable emails but it ended up being a hassle to keep up with and I am glad to pay for Fastmail to not deal with anything but getting my emails.

Additionally, one downside to the burner email services is that some companies have tracked down the popular ones and mark email addresses from those domains as invalid, meaning they really want something that isn't a burner email.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> this would've been a brilliant idea about 6-7 years ago when mobile data was more expensive.

Still not too late though.

I'm sure squatters that sit at cafes for hours at time would be more than happy to fork over their information for free Wifi

<comment><USER12> Mobile data is still fairly expensive, honestly.

<comment><USER13> T-Mobile "Unlimited" doesn't throttle you until you hit upwards of 50GB in a month in the States, and my understanding is that mobile data is very inexpensive in Europe.

<comment><USER14> 50 gigs is nothing unless you're only using it for email and website browsing.

<comment><USER15> I'm not sure what to do with your anectodal hyperbole except counter with other anectdotal hyperbole and say that 50gigs/month is more than enough for me under normal circumstances.

Granted I don't watch a ton of streaming video, but I do work mostly online and am on multi party video conference for multiple hours per week.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I imagine what Yelp really want is to track footfall and IRL behaviors via MAC addresses.

You do not need to attempt to connect to the wifi for them to obtain this, merely walk/move past the restaurant.

This will let them know your movements in meatspace ('you' being the derived identifier, until/unless they pay/trade-with a data broker for enrichment).

While both Apple and Google have boasted about MAC address randomization for years, it's always been crap, and still is[1].

[1]: [https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/10/mac_address_randomi...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/10/mac_address_randomization/)

<comment><USER17> Additionally, if this is indeed the case, randomization is irrelevant if you are actually connecting to their Wi-Fi.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> ZenReach ([https://www.zenreach.com/](https://www.zenreach.com/)) has done this for quite a bit of time and has grown very fast doing it.

It's unclear how Yelp's offering is differentiated from ZenReach's, but Yelp may capture a significant share of the market simply by virtue of the fact that they have excellent reach into brick and mortar businesses.

</comment><comment><USER19> This backfires since sites and browsers started defaulting to HTTPS. The WiFi can't present its spammy "login" page in response to an HTTPS request. Some WiFi nodes try to MITM HTTPS pages, but that generates forged-site messages that are hard to bypass in newer browsers.

</comment><comment><USER20> Good move for Yelp. Probably bad news for data privacy advocates.

They could track you from venue to venue, without your even connecting to the wifi. They could see how busy a restaurant is at any time based on number of smart devices with wifi, they could infer demographic data based on device id, etc. etc.

They could probably correlate this with other data sources to 100% identify who you are and target you.

It's good for business owners if they surface this insight to their audience. It's bad for business owners because previously Yelp has been notoriously a bad actor in the space and can't be trusted.

It's good for business owners that want a great interface and offer wifi that might also better the experience for their customers.

<comment><USER21> Also looks like you have to sign in with a social network? Double nope. Also looks like its an app instead of the normal connect screen, but since it's a mockup I'll give that a pass.

Thinking about it - not really all that different than the google wifi at Starbucks. Google definitely is mining some data there... how long you're connected, locations visited...

<comment><USER22> you can use email, so there's nothing preventing you from using firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><USER23> except if they actually verify the email doesn't bounce and you don't have a cell-data device, then you need the wifi in order to get your 10minutemail address…

<comment><USER24> A year ago, I was at Montreal Trudeau Airport waiting for my flight. I tried to connect to the Wifi, it asked for an email address and as usual I entered something in the like of firstname.lastname@example.com Problem is you first get 10 minutes of wifi to go check your email. Once the email is confirmed, you get unlimited wifi.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Form based landing pages are the norm for public WiFi here in England. I just always give fake information. I'm not sure how many people give out their real name email and phone?

<comment><USER26> Agreed. Once or twice I gave a "real" email on the basis that I assumed they'd email me a confirmation-code, or similar. Since that has never happened I just enter "firstname.lastname@example.com", or similar, these days.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> This seems like a clever ploy to recapture some of the ground that Foursquare is taking, in that Foursquare has the deeper intuition on customer preferences linked to social networking data - you have to use some identifying info to connect to the network, plus there's the possibility these wireless routers may be scanning for nearby phones/computers. It could lead to the Yelp app advertising based on proximity to restaurants that people in similar demographics liked.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'd rather use data honestly.

</comment><comment><USER29> Knew the guys that were likely the predecessors of Yelp Wifi before they got acquired: Turnstyle Analytics, solid Canadian company, good to seem them being used.

</comment><comment><USER30> One thing I've noticed about my personal habits is that I use WiFi less and less. WiFi is so horribly unreliable that I turn it off and use LTE. I'm sure there is a segment of people who this would work great for, but after almost every US carrier revamped their cell phone plans earlier this year to offer unlimited data, I struggle to see this product's future.

</comment><comment><USER31> How is this done? You need to get a router from them? Or is it just software and it works with some routers?

<comment><USER32> It's probably a router that you add on to your existing infrastructure and it's managed remotely via some sort of API.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> "Collect customer information" consensual or not?

<comment><USER34> There's certainly a small and beautifully designed "I have read the [terms and conditions]" checkbox next to the field where you input your email (and no non tech savvy user/lawyer has ever bothered to click those links)

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> This makes a bit of sense. One can't help but wonder what all their engineering resources have been going towards since Yelp and Eat24 are so buggy and seem to be gradually getting worse. At least now there's an answer

<comment><USER36> I interned at Yelp twice and can tell you it was not this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I've never used public Wi-Fi, and don't see why one would really want to, if they have a data plan. If you don't watch videos outside, 2-4GB suffices monthly (2GB monthly costs me ŧ27/~$6, with an educational discount, and I've never used it all up). If you do video conferences outside, you probably would have the income to buy a larger data plan. It's just not worth the risk. Maybe things like Facebook consume people's data plans quickly so that they're always looking to find free wifi?

<comment><USER38> If you work remote just doing things like using ssh, browsing web pages, and using Spotify and the occasional YouTube vid can eat up more than 10 GB a month. It's not hard to set up an OpenVPN server in AWS along with LetsEncrypt and have a custom VPN to use to browse securely over public wifi. Now as for speed and whether they block vpn ports or other ports needed to do your job, is where I draw the line for pub wifi usage... actually probably wouldn't use at DEF CON as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> If the food and service are good I don't need an email to remind me to come back.

You build customer loyalty by providing a consistently good dining experience.

We need less phones out at the dinner table not more.

</comment><comment><USER40> How often do you really need to connect to WiFi these days? The four major wireless providers all offer "unlimited" data. T-mobile even has "unlimited" 3g tethering. I've gone over the prioritization limit plenty of times and not seen a difference.

</comment><comment><USER41> This is brilliant on Yelp's part. Surprised a POS system didn't already do this, but I guess they have less to gain. I wonder what % of US consumers max out their data plans in a month - that would give you an idea of what adoption might look like.

</comment><comment><USER42> Facebook wifi for business came to me as soon as I saw this.

Fb did this 4 years ago, lots of HN comments at the time:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7018811](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7018811)

</comment><comment><USER43> This is what WeChat has been doing in China for a long time.

</comment><comment><USER44> Yelp with more unimaginative and useless software

</comment><comment><USER45> I assume this is from the Turnstyle acquisition.

</comment><comment><USER46> > Your customers connect to your free WiFi with an email address, social media > profile, or phone number.

firstname.lastname@example.com it is!

</comment><comment><USER47> It's a terrible idea. One shouldn't need to provide a personal identity to use the Internet.

</comment><comment><USER48> Nope Wifi.

</comment><comment><USER49> Anyone wants to help me create LTE blocking wallpaper?

</comment><comment><USER50> yelp seems pretty thirsty, must to be doing so well. they're (the restaurant) in the wrong business if they care about offering wifi instead of quality service. I have zero interest is being contacted later for promotions or loyalty.

</comment><comment><USER51> A me-too product in a crowded field. Based on other comments below it appears to be a rebrand of a prior acquire, Turnstyle Analytics in this case.

Also, it's pretty clear based on these early comments that HN has a bunch of people that never talked to or sold to a small business owner before and empathize with their needs.

When you open up a QSR (quick service restaurant as compared to FSQ full service restaurant) there's really only three strategies to build up your initial customer base, one is using wifi as the honeypot.

The default would be to be just broadcast your business account cable or DSL modem and call it a day. The nicer places have a Meraki, set up the captive portal settings, and call it a day. The smart thing to do is to call Facebook and setup a Facebook Wifi service account with them.

They set you up an account, you configure your router, then let Facebook lock up your wifi in exchange for a like or to click the tiny dark patterned opt- out link.

The store owner wins, they get exposure through Facebook with likes, Facebook wins because they get more data points to track, and the customer wins in that they get data access.

It's a simple idea and there are plenty of vendors that offers this to help business owners not have to deal with the as-is software from equipment vendors.

ZenReach.com is another solution provider that integrates multiple services to make it so you mix and match to set up your own preferred workflow.

Yelp jumping in is to boost up their yelp ratings and reviews which in turn boosts their value and extend their relationship with the store so that they can push and upsell more services like local advertising, profile promotion, or orders lead generation.

Lots of the shops will buy in, it's one less hassle out of a lot of hassles they deal with day in and day out, and they might get more Yelp reviews and Yelp stars? Yes, let's go.

The lifecycle for a product like this though is only 2 or 3 years. After two or three years the shop owners smarten up and switch back to a custom branded captive portal because after enough likes they don't want to keep feeding the Facebook bottom line. But now they get to maybe boost up Yelp reviews and ratings for awhile.

<comment><USER52> Are you sure? I'm looking at my email inbox and saw an email from Pizza ranch. When I went there the first time, they simply asked me if I'd like to give them my email address. I gave them my email address. Easy enough. You don't need to offer anything.

You can offer free WiFi if you like. You don't have to make it conditional to this crap. Owners and management, if you're reading this: you don't need this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Gross

</comment><comment><USER54> > Your customers connect to your free WiFi with an email address, social media > profile, or phone number. [...] Target your customers with email and SMS > promotions that are easy to build and keep customers coming back.

I'll just keep using my mobile provider's data service that I already pay for anyway. More spam is exactly what I don't need in my life, ESPECIALLY not SMS spam which has no effective filters or controls.

<comment><USER2> This. The first thing that came to my mind. Most of the time, if a local wifi login screen asks me to create an account, I just close it.</comment></comment>


Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/23/female-founders-accuse-vc-justin-caldbeck-of-making-unwanted-advances <comment><USER2> The bigger thread has already been downvoted off the front page and this one is falling quickly. Disgusting.

For all the down voters: Justin just admitted that all the accusations are true. [https://www.axios.com/justin-caldbeck-takes-indefinite- leave...](https://www.axios.com/justin-caldbeck-takes-indefinite-leave-of- absence-from-binary-capital-2446988189.html)

 _The past 24 hours have been the darkest of my life. I have made many mistakes over the course of my career, some of which were brought to light this week. To say I 'm sorry about my behavior is a categorical understatement. Still, I need to say it: I am so, so sorry.

I direct my apology first to those women who I've made feel uncomfortable in any way, at any time - but also to the greater tech ecosystem, a community that I have utterly failed.

The power dynamic that exists in venture capital is despicably unfair. The gap of influence between male venture capitalists and female entrepreneurs is frightening and I hate that my behavior played a role in perpetrating a gender-hostile environment. It is outrageous and unethical for any person to leverage a position of power in exchange for sexual gain, it is clear to me now that that is exactly what I've done.

I am deeply ashamed of my lack of self-awareness. I am grateful to Niniane, Susan, Leiti, and the other women who spoke up for providing me with a sobering look into my own character and behavior that I can no longer ignore. The dynamic of this industry makes it hard to speak up, but this is the type of action that leads to progress and change, starting with me.

I will be taking an indefinite leave of absence from Binary Capital, the firm I co-founded in 2014. I will be seeking professional counseling as I take steps to reflect on my behavior with and attitude towards women. I will find ways to learn from this difficult experience - and to help drive necessary changes in the broader venture community.

The Binary team will also be taking measures to ensure that the firm is a safe place for founders of all backgrounds to find the support and resources they need to change the world, without abuse of power or mistreatment of any person.

I owe a heartfelt apology to my family, my investors, my portfolio, and the team at Binary, who have been completely blindsided and in no way deserve the pain I've caused. But most of all I apologize again to those who I've hurt during the course of my career - and for the damage I've done to the industry I care so deeply about._

<comment><USER3> That's pretty impressive. Usually they somehow turn around the whole issue during this kind of "apology" but he pretty much says he behaved badly and that's it.

Edit: After reading [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14622737](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14622737) I think he is just a big asshole who wants to make this go away so he can get back to business. No real remorse.

<comment><USER4> It would be more impressive to not harass women founders. This apology moves him above harassers who don't apologize, but still miles below non-harassers.

Beware of giving someone too much credit for doing something very harmful, then apologizing for it effusively. It doesn't undo the harm.

<comment><USER5> So how long do we have to ostracize him for before we can treat him like a human being again? Or does he wear the scarlett letter forever now?

Is it not okay to note that he appears to be taking the right first steps?

<comment><USER6> Until he is removed from positions of power over women, and steps are taken towards making sure that it won't happen again?

Serial drunk drivers lose their license, and get sent to AA. Serial harassment... I'm not sure what institution exists to deal with that problem. A shrink? Welfare?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > Among the allegations made to The Information are that Caldbeck sent > explicit text messages to women; that Caldbeck sent messages in the middle > of the night suggesting meeting up; that Caldbeck suggested going to a hotel > bedroom during a meeting; that Caldbeck made a proposition about having an > open relationship; and that Caldbeck grabbed a woman's thigh under the table > of a bar during a meeting.

</comment><comment><USER8> Curious what Tiffany Zhong has to say...only reason I have heard of this place is because she was known as the youngest VC in the Valley until she left last year.

<comment><USER9> The firm had multiple other women leave in rapid succession as well.

<comment><USER8> It's just a little terrifying how young she was and also the fact that the 3 women who both spoke on record happened to be asian.

Note: I'm an asian male.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> So I understand that Justin made some serious mistakes in pursuing his interest in several female entrepreneurs.

Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest? I'd imagine it would depend a lot on the context -- for example, it seems clear to me it would be very inappropriate to do so during any time period where a deal was being negotiated.

And of course, general etiquette would obviously apply, e.g. get to know them a bit and cautiously begin displaying some interest, making sure they seem receptive, etc.

I am genuinely curious about people's thoughts. Not hoping to start an incendiary discussion.

EDIT: I guess it wasn't clear enough that I'm not trying to defend or rationalize Justin's actions in any way. I wasn't trying to explore why exactly what he did was wrong -- that seems pretty clear enough. I was hoping to discuss more ambiguous scenarios.

<comment><USER11> What you should do:

-Ask a woman out for dinner

-Exchange contact information, and ask to connect outside of work.

-Reach out via social media and express interest.

\</comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>

What you should not do:

-Grab a woman's leg under the table.

-Suggest that you move to a hotel room in the middle of a meeting.

-Suggest an open sexual relationship with multiple women from one company.

-Continue with romantic and sexual advances after already being rejected once.

<comment><USER12> > -Continue with romantic and sexual advances after already being rejected > once.

I'm not sure that Michelle Obama would now wish that Barack had followed that particular piece of advice, when as a colleague he persistently asked her out after she said no several times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I still can't approve of the article because of all the allusions and unwarranted generalizations it makes ("this is why there are so few female founders" and the like). A favorite is cases like Ellen Pao who lose in court but in certain circles her claims continue to be believed.

Obviously, men will always be attracted to women (and sometimes vice versa), and not all men know how to deal with it in an appropriate way. But as in this case, if called out, the bad apples also get eliminated. Also YMMV - for some an unwanted SMS in the middle of the night is a nightmare, others simply shrug it off.

Even assuming women avoid becoming founders because of sleazy VCs - what do they do instead? Men are everywhere, making advances.</comment>


Show HN: Roomd, find new friends to live with - <AUTHOR> http://roo.md/

<comment><USER2> Are you kidding me? Why would I give you access to all of that information only to request an invitation.

Also, I can't find whether this is US-specific only.

<comment><AUTHOR> We use the information requested to generate your profile on the site, but I see your point at this stage so will remove some of the extra options.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The signup page seems to have absolutely no context. I'm not even sure what service I'm signing up for, and what benefits it would get me. I'm sure you have to get some initial seed of users, but tricking HN users without a demo/trial/feature-list/anything probably is not the right way to go. Sorry.

</comment><comment><USER4> If this wasn't ready for public consumption you probably shouldn't have showed it off in public.

</comment><comment><USER5> It makes good business sense to grab early invites, sure.

However, you're posting this to a forum that is made up of mostly hackers. Hackers hate being tricked. At least tell us the site is not ready for consumption before we all go ahead and sign up.

Otherwise, cool concept. Hope it works out, but there is not much to see here.

<comment><AUTHOR> We didn't really feel that we tricking people, but definitely take these points on board.

If anyone wants their details removed let me know - firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> So it seems like we made this announcement a little early. We wanted to gauge initial interest in the general concept, but we didn't state this clearly enough. Sorry about that.

If anyone wants to remove their invite then please get in touch - firstname.lastname@example.com

We're looking to launch properly in the coming weeks as soon as we have a viable product. We'll update again once we're actually ready.

</comment><comment><USER6> I suggest the "Request invite" just asks for an email address and then asks for future information when you actually launch. Also, I think most people will have the question whether roommate options are limited to Roomd users or not. Good idea though, one of my colleagues was talking about this idea a while ago and went nowhere with it.

</comment><comment><USER7> Finish the product before you promote.

I tried to demo it and all I got was "thanks for signing up".

<comment><AUTHOR> We discussed this... at length. But in the end decided it would be better to get some early feedback rather than blindly go forward. This may have been as mistake.

We're working on the initial version, but this really isn't ready for public consumption yet, unfortunately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I must not be the only one to have the mindset of refusing to interact with an entity that only grants me access if it is via a facebook account, can I ?

</comment><comment><USER9> "Who can see posts this app makes for you on your Facebook timeline: Friends"

Why would the app need to do that? Only for an invitation?

</comment><comment><USER10> It seems there's not really much to show here. And the request invite button doesn't work for me on Fiefox.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, we're working on getting the full product ready so it's just an invite page at the moment. Did you have any specific queries?

What OS are you running? We tested on Firefox so should work. Relies on having a Facebook account right now so could that be the issue?

<comment><USER11> I think the issue is that this is a completely unknown company/product. Why should users give out any personal information to request for an invite for something with next to no information.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> If the implementation is not done, then at least have something showing how this app will overcome the initial problem of a small userbase. That is, are my roommate options limited to those who are using room.d currently?

</comment><comment><USER13> Not even a screenshot?</comment>