U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-20093556-93/u.k-men-get-4-year-sentences-for-facebook-riot-posts/

<comment><USER2> Much better article:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/facebook-riot- calls...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/facebook-riot-calls-men- jailed)

"Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 August to design a web page entitled The Warrington Riots. The court was told it caused a wave of panic in the town. When he woke up the following morning with a hangover, he removed the page and apologised, saying it had been a joke. His message was distributed to 400 Facebook contacts, but no rioting broke out as a result."

<comment><USER3> There are a number of technological misrepresentations in your quotation that would seem inconsequential to the average judge or journalist, but actually make a huge difference in meaning and effect:

 _...used his Facebook account...to design a web page..._

The word "design" implies stronger intent and effort than is actually required to post an event to Facebook. "Web page" is not typically used to refer to user-generated content on Facebook, but rather a distinct presence on the Internet that exists independently of and can be accessed without assistance from Facebook. Saying "web page" rather than "Facebook post" implies a much wider intended exposure than is actually likely.

 _His message was distributed to 400 Facebook contacts..._

This number dropping seems like a journalistic scare tactic. Probably half or more of the users on Facebook have hundreds of Facebook "friends." Saying the message "was distributed to 400...contacts" implies deliberate, intended dissemination of the post. It is far more likely that the post simply ended up in his news feed automatically, and that many of his 400 friends didn't even see the post. It is also possible that he invited all of his Facebook friends to the event, in which case all 400 would receive the invitation, but that is far, far different from, say, distributing a crime-inciting newsletter to 400 willing subscribers, or sending instructions to an active criminal network of 400 members.

<comment><USER4> So the guy posted a Facebook event, inviting people to the riots. Humorous, funny, probably took all of three minutes to accomplish, no harm done, four years in prison.

Meanwhile the banksters who have stolen billions from the public treasury have not even been charged, and won't be.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you want to see how a police state starts, look at what's happening in the UK now.

<comment><USER6> More accurately, look at what's been happening over the last several decades. The population has been disarmed bit by bit, first various gun rights were taken away until ultimately all gun rights were taken away in a hysterical response to the Dunblane massacre. Then every weapon was targeted, knives, batons, everything. Even self-defense rights were taken away, if you use your own fists in your own home to defend yourself against an attacker you could potentially go to jail. Meanwhile, British police powers have been growing out of control, with little to keep them in check. While the world made much note of the PATRIOT act in the US few people, even in the UK, paid much attention to the far more sweeping expansion of British police powers undertaken as "anti-terrorism" measures. All the while moving closer and closer to the ideal of a completely disempowered populace utterly dependent on the police for any degree of protection.

<comment><USER7> FYI: We have been given the right to self defence in our own homes now.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587>

<comment><USER6> Given the way British law works I'd wait until a few high-profile cases have established a firm precedent to get too excited. Nevertheless, compared to the situation previous this is somewhat of an improvement.

<comment><USER7> Indeed. The last high profile case didn't work out very well for the defender did it, but I guess that was largely due to the robber being shot in the back. [1]

I think the change is law is to help clarify this a little more. In reality, once the perps in this case dived out the window, they could have pulled weapons and started shooting themselves.

I'd sooner face jail than that possibility.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Social media is no different from any other form of communication for trying to incite crime. Drunkenness is not an excuse for other crimes, and should not be for this one.

<comment><USER9> Here in Germany drunkenness can reduce your sentence and your criminal responsibility.

<comment><USER8> Spoke too soon. Culture gap I guess

Edit: took out attempt at humor

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If they'd just generally called for a riot that would be one thing (possibly still illegal), these guys set a particular time and place which is what did them in.

Blackshaw at least (because he actually showed up for his planned riot, the other chap didn't) would go to prison if he did this anywhere in the world. Even in the USA with its extremely strong protections for speech, inviting people to meet at a set place and time for the purpose of rioting is illegal.

Even Sutcliffe-Keenan (who at least was smart enough to delete his event from facebook after he sobered up) basically did the equivalent of calling a bomb- threat.

<comment><USER11> Hey we're "having a riot" out by the McDonalds on Orangethorpe Avenue in Anaheim tomorrow at 4pm. Hope you can make it, assuming free speech still exists in the US, unlike the british police state we fought to free ourselves from.

PS come and get me coppers.

<http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot>

<comment><USER10> Free speech does not include planning a riot, any more than it does threatening to kill someone. This is one of the few exceptions to otherwise very strong rights to say whatever you want.

<comment><USER11> If you decide to come to the riot, could you bring the desert plates? Just a sack of 500 paper ones would be fine.

Famous case from World War I. There was a socialist party guy, Charles Schenck, who thought war was a bunch of BS and the draft was slavery. He printed up 15,000 tracts and passed them out to people. Oliver Wendall Holmes, a fascist if there ever was one, said that criticizing the government was the same thing as "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" and you had no right to to such a thing that might bring about a riot. So they sent Schenck to prison.

That was the wrong decision. As you are wrong here.

The problem with this nonsense is it is provoking people to go from posting gag calls for rioting to realizing the situation is so bad rioting isn't enough. Armed revolution is what is needed. The violent overthrow of the government is inevitable at this point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why would you write this article, but not include the text of the posts?

<comment><USER13> Jordan Blackshaw's event was entitled "Smash Down in Northwich Town" and included an invitation for something called the "Mob Hill Massive Northwich Lootin'" to meet behind the McDonald's in the town centre at 1pm. It also included the words "We'll need to get this kickin' off all over."

The Warrington posts by Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan were very similar, although he did actually title his event "The Warrington Riots." It was a similar invitation to meet at a location in the centre of the town at 7pm.

The rest of the information on the groups has not been released by police and has been removed from Facebook. (Source: I work in the media in the area concerned and have the police news release in front of me.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> 4 years... There are murderers who do less.

</comment><comment><USER15> Surprisingly swift justice. The average wait time for the crown court is 13-15 weeks [<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Court>].

<comment><USER16> The law is certainly agile when representing the interests of the state, rather than citizens.

<comment><USER17> I think this is all about public perception, they are doing this to convince the public they are now in control, despite the fact that most people involved in the riots are free. I would not be surprised if this is appealed and changed to a more reasonable sentence, in a few months, when people are more calm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Can someone from the UK comment on if 4-year sentences are typically served to full term. I believe in America, you can be sentenced to 4 years and only end up doing a few months of the actual sentence.

<comment><USER7> You typically serve half of it over here, pending a hearing, "good behaviour" and any extra conditions a judge added.

(Which for these sort of offences are very unlikely to be applied.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> speaking about value of anonymity on Facebook in particular and on the Internet in general...

People pay dearly for the lack (or disregard?) of basic skills and practices (anonymity, wireless, encryption, route through server in another country, etc...) of how to exercise freedom of speech even in the countries where such freedom is known to not even be guaranteed by law, like Britain or Libya.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm a UK guy.

I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate.

But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes.

The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times.

But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released.

On the back of this, groups of people all over the UK decided to go on organised shoplifting spree's. When asked by the media "Why" they said things like "To get back our taxes, innit." [SIC]

Perhaps a few, who are at the very least comfortable with criminal behaviour, need to be given these sorts of sentences - and then for the media to make it well known it's happened.

A deterrent. Unfortunate for those singled out for it, but perhaps one needed for the good of the whole society.

They looted charity shops for fucks sake. Parents supported the kids doing it.

Something had to be done. This was it.

<comment><USER20> Prison sentences, fines, comunity service, etc are already a deterrent to crime. These deterrents (and punishments) are considered proportionate to the crime by the judge/jury. I see no reason to single out rioting to be different, apart from emotional ones.

<comment><USER7> But it hasn't acted as a deterrent, has it. The first tiny window of opportunity these organised shoplifters had, they went for it.

It wasn't rioting or a protest.

<comment><USER17> You are getting over excited. There are many opportunities to riot, that are not taken. This is no the "first tiny window of opportunity".

And once again, the police will cover up any wrong doing, close ranks, just as they did with Jean Charles de Mendez. This is not OK. This is not acceptable, for a police force to kill people, and hide. You can pretend that it has nothing to do with this, but all you will be doing is pretending to yourself to make yourself feel better.

<comment><USER7> I don't feel I am getting over exited.

A protest about an unfortunate incident led to some people throwing stuff at the Police. This escalated.

Others then saw this as an opportunity to go looting in other towns.

Bringing up Jean Charles de Mendez at this point in time makes no sense at all. We have no idea what happened to Mark Duggan exactly yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> What about the actual posts?

</comment><comment><USER22> Make a post on Facebook, get sentenced to the Men of the Night's Watch. Steal two scoops of ice cream, get your hand cut off!

<comment><USER23> ObRacistJoke:

 _Australian Immigration Officer_ : Do you have any prior criminal convictions?

 _Tourist_ : I didn't realise that it was still a requirement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> "Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both _pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire_. They have been jailed for four years"

One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea.

"Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of _9 August_ ..."

Dateline of story: _Tuesday 16 August 2011_

One also wonders how their lawyer allowed the situation to progress from alleged offense to media circus regarding four year sentence IN LESS THAN A WEEK. I don't know how Britain usually does things, but in the U.S. a non- violent victimless offender would generally spend most of the first week out on bail awaiting the gathering of evidence for a proper arraignment. Methinks someone has been railroaded.

<comment><USER25> Do courts in the UK have any flexibility in sentencing? Do defendants generally know what evidence the prosecution has against them?

If so, then I'd expect guilty pleas to often be sensible. If you _know_ you are guilty, and you know that the prosecution has sufficient evidence to make it virtually certain you'll be convicted, why not plead guilty and hope that sways the court to leniency?

I'd expect a court to be more lenient with a defendant who admits his guilt and shows remorse for the crime than one who insists he is not guilty when he clearly is and clearly knows that he's going to be found guilty.

<comment><USER26> There's definitely leniency. Depending on the case, I believe the standard tariff reduction for a sufficiently early Guilty plea is 1/3.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: I'm visiting Bay Area and I dislike the "hacker" culture. Please help - <AUTHOR> I understand the irony in posting this on "hacker"news but please bare with me.
I'm a 25 year old european developer/designer. I'm visiting for obvious reasons (startup scene), and some less obvious (I dislike winter in Croatia). I'd like to get a feel for the area and see what all the fuss is about. Also do some networking, meet new people etc… the usual stuff. I'll be staying for 2-3 months.
Unfortunately I have an issue. I dislike people who call themselves hackers, rockstars, ninjas, nomads etc. I don't care about yoga, organic food, vegans, feminists or spirit animals. I dislike overuse of the word "community" and I think the whole "lifehacking" thing is retarded.
Online articles give me the impression that most of the techies in Bay Area are like this. Hipsterish, self absorbed, holier than thou, buying into hype/industry fads etc.
Is this true?
I'd like to hear other's opinions on this, especially from people who live in the Bay Area. I've never been there, so I'm judging based on online research. I could be totally wrong.
I'm the type of person who likes eating meat, drinking beer, talking about politics, money, science, entrepreneurship, programming etc.
My intention isn't to be a hater. People are different, cultures  are different, that's fine :-)
I'd just like to hear others opinions and get some advice. Like where should I stay during my visit, which meetups should I attend and so on. I'm on a budget and would prefer spending less than $2500/month. I don't mind living with roomates as long as they're not rockstars. That's a bit too loud for me :O
Edit: I'm not saying that everyone in the area is like that. Again, that's the impression that I got from online research. I find it hard to believe and that's why I opened this thread. <comment><USER2> You are probably overthinking it. As a Canadian who visits the bay area on a very regular basis for work (and lives in the backwoods in a community of 2000 people and takes a boat to get to a real airport), there is a jarring disconnect between the media portrayal of bay area culture and the reality.

I too eat meat, drink beer, and talk about the same topics. You'll find that is true of most "hackers" in the bay area too. The term hacker is used more often as shorthand to describe somebody who is into technology without getting into the details (software&hardware&ux).

I have seen precisely one person ever describe themselves as a rockstar, and we rejected his job application for plagiarizing his code samples. Nobody in the real world does this, and you're unlikely to get force-fed yoga, lifehacking, etc.

There are still things that weird me out about the bay area, but overall I really enjoy my time there. I encourage you to check out some tech meetups.

Oh. And Noisebridge and it's mailing list aren't representative of the larger geek community in SFO either, just saying ;)

</comment><comment><USER3> > I think the whole "lifehacking" thing is retarded

Regardless of your general "help me understand the Bay" stance, this a HUGE negative blaming statement that originates from you alone.

I live in the Bay. I regularly modify my diet to see how it affects my health. I found out I'm allergic to gluten by testing its effects on making my ears ring, stomach ache, etc. Riding my bike clears my mind like nothing else. Why I do this, how I do it, talk about it, terms I use to refer to it and pretty much anything else _I choose to do_ is up to me, and shouldn't be judged by you unless it affects you directly, even if you did read it somewhere. Which it doesn't, and you didn't.

I hear you when you want other opinions about the culture here, but as others have stated, the Bay Area has a massive number of people in the technology scene. We have compassion, asshats, brilliance, idiocy, over-achievers, under- achievers, massive revenue generators, massive cash burners, and everything in between. All from direct observations, FWIW.

If you want a good experience, then let all your expectations go and don't worry about it. Seek out meaningful conversations and experiences and let what will be, be.

In other words, come live in the moment, for a moment is all that you have here.

I hope your stay is an enjoyable one. I, for one, love it here.

<comment><USER4> Finding out how food and exercise affect your body and adjusting your behavior accordingly is very different from what "lifehack" is in popular media.

Even if we ignore the bad ideas and generally superfluous stuff branded as "lifehacks," the bare-bones of lifehacking is often steeped in the smug self- righteousness of the Bay that is a throughline in OP's post.

<comment><USER3> A right click and click on define divulges lifehacking as "a strategy or technique adopted in order to manage one's time and daily activities in a more efficient way". Given gluten is a drain on my brain, and riding at a certain time increases my clarity levels for creating, I'm going to strongly disagree with you here.

I also have NFC tags on my desk and near the front door to speed the time it takes to configure my phone for the commute to the city.

That there are some who are smug about their personal experiences practicing things I practice is up to them. Expecting to ONLY find smugness because people in the Bay (may) practice lifehacking is simply setting negative expectations. Nothing more, nothing less.

<comment><USER5> Cool sounding NFC setup - have you written anywhere about that? Or do you mind describing what the NFC points trigger on your phone here?

<comment><USER3> :) I use NFC Tools from the Google Play store + Whiztags with write capabilities, not that's necessary for executing predefined phone actions.

The update to the Nexus 5 now allows you to use the tags for unlocking the phone based on unique ID on an NFC tag as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I know exactly where you are coming from: a few years ago I decided I was going to move to either SF or NYC from socal. I interviewed at a bunch of places and spent time socializing in both cities, e.g. going to parties, meeting friends of friends, etc. It was an involved decision that I made carefully.

In the end, NYC was a no-brainer for me. I consistently found the bay area has developed an homogenous culture that even pervaded my non-tech friends' lives. People always asked the dreaded "so, what do you do?" way earlier than they did in NYC. And unlike in NYC, I often felt like I was being judged for my answer. I hated this because I like a strong work-life seperation. In NYC I found there's less of a social "hierarchy" based on profession. At a typical party you can meet an artist, an actor, a doctor, a hedge fund investor, and a marketing executive, and all may kick ass at their jobs. I got exposed to an insane amount of culture in NYC that I didn't see in SF.

Keep in mind that this is written from the perspective of a professional - there are probably large parts of the two cities that culturally overlap. Also, I'm not trying to say SF is a bad city, but it isn't for everyone.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the reply! I also prefer NY but as you said, the startup culture is weak compared to SF. We'll see.

<comment><USER7> > the startup culture is weak compared to SF

I live in New York and I consider this a good thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm an American developer, and I feel exactly the same way.

There is more than one "hacker" tradition in the US. For instance, Caltech near Los Angeles, on the west coast, and MIT, near Boston, on the east coast, have been rivals for a long time. They have different cultures.

As someone native to the Midwest, educated in the Mid-Atlantic, and currently working in the South, it is readily apparent to me that there is no monolithic American culture. I can't stand the Western hippy-dippy nonsense, the Southern obsession with church and football, or any of the idiotic management fads that affect my work culture.

But the San Francisco/Silicon Valley culture has massive amounts of cash pumping through it at the moment, and bits of it are metastasizing elsewhere. As a result, I have seen open-plan offices, complete with ping-pong tables and people wearing shoes with separated toes, in places like Denver and Nashville.

What I really want is to see a company that hires for competence rather than cultural fit, values aptitude over experience, and doesn't try to pretend to be anything more than a place of business--where people go to do work, finish it, and then leave.

I also like the things you like, and I dislike the winters in Wisconsin. It would be very nice if there were a place other than Silicon Valley to enjoy the networking effect, without the cultural trappings that are such a giant turn-off to people elsewhere in the world, and even elsewhere in the US. But if you're looking to get paid, you may just have to suppress your irritation for a while.

</comment><comment><USER9> First, don't believe everything you read. I'm willing to bet the majority of devs in the SF startup seen are relatively quiet, very overworked, and not overly political (unless, say, trying to pick up a member of the preferred gender).

Second, it's not like you're going to have a vegan feminist drum-circle (to use your own caricature) pounding away in your coworking space while you're trying to get work done. I wouldn't worry about that.

Third, your self-description should be able to fit in perfectly. Again, regardless of what it might seem like on the internet, there aren't roving bands of evil liberals looking to go all Clockwork Orange on you if you're at a Starbucks listening to a Glenn Beck podcast or whatever. Most people just don't give a shit.

Fourth, please reconsider posting like this. You paint with a really wide brush, and not only does it make you seem like an internet right-winger (which may not actually be true), it also reeks of ignorance of getting along with other people and being open-minded and excited to meet cultures outside of your comfort zone.

Lastly, if you want to visit a place with real diversity and make that money stretch (seriously, that's like 3 months rent here), check out Houston. Or Austin. Or Dallas.

</comment><comment><USER10> Remember 8 million people live the Bay Area so the scene is diverse. I'd say more than 5 million of those don't care about technology or startups at all. What you read online is the few who shout the loudest and promote themselves or their idea.

</comment><comment><USER11> _> >My intention isn't to be a hater. People are different, cultures are different, that's fine :-)_

 _> > I dislike people who call themselves hackers, rockstars, ninjas, nomads etc. I don't care about yoga, organic food, vegans, feminists or spirit animals. I dislike overuse of the word "community" and I think the whole "lifehacking" thing is retarded._

<comment><USER12> Actively being a "hater" is very different from politely listing groups or ideologies that you are trying to avoid.

<comment><USER13> And describing something you try to avoid as "retarded" is not exactly "polite".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> There's definitely the stereotypical "hacker"/techie person you mention in San Francisco and Silicon Valley but there's also every other type of person you can imagine. Generally we have a "live and let live" mentality so people are free to be who they want, even if it's offensive to you.

Regarding some specific comments:

Hipsterish - Yeah, we are hipsterish because we think of ourselves as trendy. We also are more laid back than New York so t-shirts, jeans, sweatpants, sandals, are all a-ok with us.

Yoga - What's wrong with liking yoga? Stretching and meditation have been shown to help clear the mind and improve your mental wellness.

Organic Food - We are the pioneers of the organic food movement and have some of the best food in the world. It's just silly to hate organic food on the basis that it's pesticide free. People are passionate about their causes here so they take it to extremes.

Feminists - Okay, not touching this one with a ten-foot pole.

Spirit Animals - I'm not sure where this stereotype came from but I have to admit I have had multiple conversations at different parties about what everyone's spirit animal is.

Roam around the Bay Area, it's a big place, and you'll find people you are interested in hanging out with. You'll find more diversity in Oakland if that's what you're looking for (although there's probably more feminists and activists as well). Stay away from Berkeley because Yoga + Organic Food.

Enjoy your stay.

<comment><USER4> _Yoga - What 's wrong with liking yoga?_

Nothing is wrong with yoga the activity. Just like nothing is wrong with owning a gun, flying the flag, or living in Georgia. But tell me with a strait face that "gun toting, flag waving, Georgia boy" doesn't conjure the image of a person that is more than the sum of those parts.

<comment><USER15> Sure it does, but is that reason enough for dismissal?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> TL/DR: I'm pretty sure everyone in [insert group/place] are a specific kind of asshole and I'm looking for a _different_ kind of asshole to surround myself with. Please help!

You're talking about close to a million people, maybe chill the fuck out and show up with more of an open mind. Or like, don't.

[Edit]

Uggh. I should probably leave the comment alone, but I feel bad about it so I'll try to add something more constructive. Like every large-enough subculture, the startup-scene tropes have some truth to them but it's still a very large and diverse set of people and ideas. If anything, I feel like the tendency toward a hyped up monoculture has receded in the last couple of years (somewhere in 2011 it seemed like we hit peak-food-photo-founder-rockstar).

I don't live in SF but I work for a startup there and travel up there a lot. All told, it's a really incredible city and while there's plenty about the startup culture to find fault in, it remains true that there are is an incredible density of really smart and motivated people there passionately working on stuff.

No apparent shortage of meat or beer, either. You can probably go a full day without being forced to eat tofu.

</comment><comment><USER17> Don't worry; people in the Bay Area are annoyed by people who call themselves rockstars and ninjas too. As for what you're reading online, of course some people are like that, but in my experience they are for the most part not the interesting ones anyway. The best people I know don't care for fashions.

How are meat, beer, and broad discussions antithetical to your perception of how people in the Bay Area live?

<comment><AUTHOR> > How are meat, beer, and broad discussions antithetical to your perception of > how people in the Bay Area live?

I'm not saying it's antithetical, I was just trying to describe myself.

<comment><USER17> Oh, all right, I misunderstood.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I don't have any advice, but you seem to suggest that the whole "scene" is problematic. Ignoring that is a massive sweeping statement, perhaps consider if _you_ are causing yourself to be the problem - you've already decided you're not interested in meeting anyone here, because you've already formed opinions. You might do better to take it as you find it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ofcourse I'm interested in meeting people there. Yes I formed some opinions but they might be totally wrong.

I just want to hear what people think about this subject.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Hey there,

I would be happy to show you around, introduce you to some good people, etc. if you like. I have a car and can take you to some places outside the immediate SF area (plus it gives me an excuse to drive somewhere). Always happy to show people around :) My contact info is on my profile.

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha, I'll probably take you up on that offer..

<comment><USER19> Sounds good. Just have something clear for your email subject so I know who you are :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Asking here is a mistake. Living in the culture of the Bay normalizes you to the idiosyncrasies that stand out to outsiders.

Like any loose collective, the techies in the bay will allow themselves to be labeled as a subculture when their ego is getting stroked. But if pressed with a criticism you'll find that they're just a diverse group of people that may share a profession and hobby or two but can't possibly be a considered a subculture with general defining traits. And neither way to see them is wrong.

The good news is that the prominent attitudes are not shared by everyone, or even most people. The bad news is that the people that exhibit them are annoyingly prominent. And everyone worth knowing has a coping strategy to blend in.

</comment><comment><USER20> Normally you'll only see that behavior if you eavesdrop at a coffee shop, visit some startup's office (not all are like this), end up working in a co- working space, or couch surfing at a hacker hostel of some sort (these are normally whipped together by 4+ people renting a giant house and trying to split rent).

Visit the bay area, enjoy the good food. Find a way to head into any of the surrounding hills for a nice hike. Visit the computer museum. Have some coffee at the Philz on Middlefield Road. Enjoy your time there.

</comment><comment><USER21> There surely _exist_ people such as you describe, but I think they're far less prevalent than you might worry. Amongst techies I know in the area, maybe 40% have at least one of the negative (from your perspective) attributes you've listed; I don't think I know anyone personally to whom they all apply, and _" the type of person who likes eating meat, drinking beer, talking about politics, money, science, entrepreneurship, programming etc."_ could describe most of my friends.

</comment><comment><USER22> I think if you go in expecting to have a bad time, it may become self- fulfilling. Maybe focus more on the things you like and less on the things you hate?

</comment><comment><USER23> The media portrayal of the Bay Area and of California itself is wildly misguided and wrong. Like all stereotypes, the image of the vegan "rockstar" self-important hacker has a basis in reality, but it's a cartoonish exaggeration.

 _I'm the type of person who likes eating meat, drinking beer, talking about politics, money, science, entrepreneurship, programming etc._

You'll find plenty of company.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've lived in the bay area for 10+ years as a Software Engineer and follow all the local news. But i don't get the sense that the things you mentioned are more popular than the other stuff you said you like. There's lots of people here who like talking about politics, money, science and drinking beer. It's not nearly as white and black here as you imagine.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think you're a bit caught up in stereotypes, to be honest. There aren't many people who are all those things you think you dislike. If you meet someone cool, and then they happen to be a vegan, what's your plan? Argue that they suck?

I'd say, you are going to somewhere new. Keep an open mind. You might find out you like some of this stuff.

</comment><comment><USER26> I went through a similar thing in my first few trips to the Bay area, and ultimately decided to not move there for the same reasons.

I've found subsequent trips to be much easier. Unfortunately, the most vocal and easiest to meet within the community were the most abrasive / kool aid driven. Keep digging.

</comment><comment><USER27> We're moving to the bay area from the midwest for 6 months, starting January first. If you want to grab coffee sometime, shoot me an email and I'll introduce you to my team. Email address in profile.

We work on enterprise MedTech web-apps in the healthcare administration field.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure. :) Wrote down your username.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> For what it's worth, You sound alot like me, but I've never visited California. On the other hand, I've lived in New York my entire life and I love it.

Come visit New York and see how you like it!

</comment><comment><USER29> Spending less than $2,500/month may require some lifehacking IMO

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess I deserved that :P

<comment><USER29> On a side note, I find the term life-hacking, and it's strange cousin travel- hacking pretty annoying as well.

A friend of mine tried to 'travel-hack' SXSW by renting a U-Haul and attempting to stay there instead of renting a hotel...

He forgot that it: (A) might be pretty chilly and (B) would remain unlocked, unless he wanted someone to lock him in and unlock him in the morning.

Needless to say he ended up crashing on the floor of my house, which really is a much better and long-standing 'travel-hack' to begin with.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> If you were here already I'd invite you to PagerDuty's 12 Pubs of Christmas tonight. We don't have any rockstars. Anyone is welcome - we start around 5:30 at Red Dog.

<comment><AUTHOR> That sounds mighty fine :O

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> > I'm the type of person who likes eating meat, drinking beer, talking about > politics, money, science, entrepreneurship, programming etc.

Honestly sounds like the NYC culture is more your thing

</comment><comment><USER32> It sounds like California might be wasted on you. You might like Edinburgh (in Scotland.) Seriously, though, you'll find what you look for wherever you go. ;-)

</comment><comment><USER33> Totally affordable if you live in Oakland. :-)

(Disclosure: I live in Oakland.)

</comment><comment><USER24> I had to look up "life hacking" \- its not nearly as prevalent here as you imagine. But, why would you not like something that makes life easier?

</comment><comment> d--b Just move to New York already, lots of meat, beer, politics and money, and a common hatred for the West coast. Sorry about the winter though.

</comment><comment><USER7> Yeah, come to New York. You belong here.

</comment><comment><USER34> > I don't care about yoga, organic food, vegans, feminists or spirit animals.

You forgot standing desks :)

<comment><AUTHOR> I actually find those useful :O Guess I'm a hacker now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Do you want money or not? Also, $2500/mo is unrealistic.</comment>


Ask HN: In long run which company is better for me - <AUTHOR> Hello I got two offer lately but having a problem to choose which one is good for me.
To clarify, I am 29 year old, and working as an expat. This is my 5th year as Full stack software developer.
Companies: Both companies are big but both of them have ups and downs

    1) Company have its own product, they are selling this product in 16 countries. They wanted to use new technologies but they also want to deliver so fast and they have lots of code base in jQuery etc. So I will be working on bug fixes, and some UI changes, I will make this fixes both front-end and back-end. They work in a peaceful environment, I can't say they are unproductive but as I see everyone know what they are doing. Company is a little far from my house but it is not a big deal, I can move.

    2) 2nd company doesn't have any product. They work with big companies to just write JavaScript and front-end development code. We can call, Web Development House. They get all services from these big companies and consume them. Also, they are using latest technologies in web development. They probably work so hard, maybe Saturday and Sunday. It doesn't seem so peaceful, it is rather more dynamic then the first job.
 I'd like to know which one would you prefer and why.
Thanks <comment><USER2> Yo, this is clearly super-subjective, it makes no sense to ask us which one would be better for you; it's up to you. Small advice, use your instinct. Usually it does a good job to screen bad deals. If both of them pass the instinct-test, pick the one that reflects what you want to do a this point of your career.

</comment><comment><USER3> Company 1 will generally be a much better company. Product companies have to (but don't always) invest in their own products and improve them.

But you interviewed with them, so you know more than we do.

</comment><comment><USER4> I believe you are more interested in Company #1 by the way you described it. So choose the one you are more interested in</comment>


Ask HN: Tips for Building Customer Survey Forms? - <AUTHOR>

I'm planning on going out into the wild this weekend to hunt down some of my future customers and find out how likely it would be that they would sign up for my service.  They'll be congregating in parks and other recreation zones, so I'll be bringing bottles of water which I will be offering in exchange for their time filling out a form.
Does anyone have tips for how I should approach this project?  How about the types or number of questions I should ask?  Currently, my plan is to open up (the form) with general domain related questions (games, recreation and sports in this case).  I'll follow that up with internet related ones ("Are you on Facebook?", etc.).  Then I'll close by trying to get their email address.
I just got a copy of Steve Blanks's book in the mail.  I plan on cracking that open tonight and studying up.
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Quantifiable data is the best, so where applicable, make your answer choices a scale of 1 to 5 (ie. Very bad to Very good, unlikely to likely, never vs all the time)

<comment><USER3> For what it is worth, the biggest class of these is known as the Likert Scale (Strongly Agree, Agree, Neither Agree Nor Disagree, Disagree, Strongly Disagree). There's a slew of research on how to apply and interpret these if you google that term.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thank you.

I was afraid my question was going to disappear.

The Likert scale sounds like a good place to start studying.</comment>


Metasploit 3.4.0 released - <AUTHOR> http://blog.metasploit.com/2010/05/metasploit-framework-340-released.html

<comment><USER2> I have no idea what this does from looking at that page.

<comment><USER3> It's a vulnerability exploitation framework. It is used by security experts for vulnerability development and penetration testing.

<comment><USER4> Haha, i think this is a different type of "Hacker News"

<comment><USER5> There are quite a few security types on here too :) (besides myself I know of at least 5).

<comment><USER6> Red leader reporting in--I'm no tptacek or cperciva, but my day job is securing a large network, and metasploit is relevant to my interests.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> So will the police come knocking on my door if I launch a test scan to my Internet Bank site?

Curiosity.... must resist...

<comment><USER8> Probably you will just blend in with the other dozen or so such sweeps they get every day. Unless it's a large bank - then maybe tens of thousands.</comment></comment>


Surface Phone slated for April 2017 - <AUTHOR> http://www.windowscentral.com/surface-phone-slated-april-2017 <comment><USER2> Why?</comment>


What happens when a Tesla electric car gets rear ended? - <AUTHOR> http://www.treehugger.com/cars/what-happens-when-tesla-electric-car-gets-rear-ended.html

<comment><USER2> Doesn't pass the sniff test. The car may have allot of battery mass, but those rear taillights are still thin plastic and they didn't even break.

Something wrong here

<comment><USER3> If the other car was under heavy braking, it's front-end dips down and instead of a bumper-to-bumper collision, you have the rear-ending car go "under" the back of the front car.

Source: My old '81 Mustang got rear-ended at fairly high speed by a Civic and had no taillight damage. Lost my tailpipe but that was about all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Off topic: In the first crash test video in the article [0], does the rear seat completely detach from the car?? And that was a car that _after NHTSA crash-testing ... basically received a perfect score_ . It's always amazing to me to see how much energy is involved in a car crash... it's easy to forget how dangerous cars can be.

[0] [http://youtu.be/R_PnnrAtRuk?t=54](http://youtu.be/R_PnnrAtRuk?t=54)</comment>


Why Making, Instead of Buying, Dinner Could Make You Thinner - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/11/why-making-dinner-is-a-good-idea/

<comment><USER2> As long as we're throwing out loosely supported theories for the rise in obesity, how about the rise of anti-depressants? Many have a noted weight gain effect.

</comment><comment><USER3> So, does this only impact food and eating?

Because I can see something interesting happening here, when compared to UI and processes. People hate 'harder' processes, even when the end result is better.

We're told that we need simple UI's, and given what people think of even "simple" (to hackers) complexity, I think this principle is NOT in play. None of my relatives ever said "I really like watching this show, it was HARD to program the VCR to record it!" (Yes I know).

The again, as a hacker I DO derive more pleasure from completing a difficult task. So maybe it's problem solvers VS everyone else.

</comment><comment><USER4> An Interesting idea, but I don't think this is the reason.

Food you prepare at home tends to have less fat/sugar than food you buy already prepared (especially when you're using raw ingredients)

Also, when I make a food for myself, laziness plays a role. Cooking a second serving takes more effort.

I do not have industrial size cooking ware, so there is a physical limitation to how much food I can cook at once.

I am not inclined to go through the whole process a second time, even when I might have eaten more if it was offered to me.

<comment><USER5> I agree that healthiness of a home cooked meal is probably going to be better than something you order. I'm not sure about serving size though but then again I only cook for my wife and I.

We always have leftovers that end up feeding us for multiple meals, if anything I eat MORE when I home cook because I don't have to stop!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Its also a matter of convenience. I would rather not spend 30 minutes making something just for me. The effort and need isn't there. I would rather have something delivered for 2 minutes of my time so I could spend that time doing something more productive.

When I buy something compared to make something, I basically bring it down to how much I get paid per hour. If I get paid 30 dollars an hour, and it takes me 30 minutes to make something, my time is better spent doing something else if I can pay less than 15 bucks for it.

<comment><USER5> I cook because I enjoy it and because it saves me money. Yesterday morning I cooked and froze 8 breakfast burritos that put McDonald's to shame. Today I spent all of 15 seconds throwing it in the microwave and didn't have to worry about driving or ordering anything.

If you're cooking by yourself don't alter the recipe for a single person, freeze it! You'll likely spend much less $/minute for all of the meals and definitely eat healthier. Not to mention $/minute is a silly thing to use unless you get paid hourly and for any hour of the day. I don't think I've ever ordered a pizza and then got down to business while I waited.

<comment><USER7> You definitely have to factor in whether you enjoy cooking or not, in any rational (in the economist's sense) calculation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So far I've observed a strong correlation between cooking my own food (as opposed to eating at the university cafeteria) and getting way fatter, although part of this should be atributed to my moving around less (since I can stay home all day working when I don't go to the university instead of biking all the way there) and having generally better cooking skills, which makes me want to eat my food a lot more.

</comment><comment><USER9> Correlation, causation, blah blah blah.

</comment><comment><USER10> <http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cook_home></comment>


Ask HN: Starting a new Python project with async networking - <AUTHOR> Surveying the async networking landscape for Python has me a bit overwhelmed. There's raw async/await in 3.5+, curio, asyncio, gevent, tornado, stackless, and probably others. If you were starting a new project today, without concern for backward compatibility, what would you use? Python 2.x or 3.x solutions please; I know about Erlang/Go/Node but they aren't a good fit for this project. <comment><USER2> 1\. Python 2 is EOL in 2020, don't use it for new projects.

2\. async/await it just an API layer on top of a framework. Thus there is no such thing as raw async/await, it has to be used with a framework of some sort (e.g. Python's built-in asyncio).

3\. gevent patches the socket library. Terrible idea. Don't use it.

4\. What protocols do you need? Twisted probably has the most implemented, but asyncio and tornado have a bunch too, and not always the same ones.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks.

Protocols - HTTP + some custom stuff on top of TCP.

<comment><USER2> I'd personally use Twisted, but I'm biased insofar as I helped develop it. It has both equivalent of Javascript promises (called Deferreds) and ability to interact with them using async/await if you like that idiom more ([http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/core/howto/defer-...](http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/current/core/howto/defer- intro.html#coroutines-with-async-await)).

But that's just me.

Given limited protocol needs, I suggest skimming docs for asyncio, Twisted, and Tornado and seeing which seems to make the most sense to you. For Twisted HTTP client and server to look at are Treq ([https://treq.readthedocs.io/en/release-17.8.0/](https://treq.readthedocs.io/en/release-17.8.0/)) and Klein ([https://klein.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://klein.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I would use curio to experiment with the concepts because it, unlike the others, isn't based on event-loops, callbacks, futures, etc. This makes it easier to understand what async can become.

Then I would likely switch to gevent or tornado, because more people are involved in those projects.

<comment><USER2> There's an event loop underneath, even if it's not directly exposed.

<comment><USER3> Isn't based on exposing an event loop, etc. API to the user.</comment></comment></comment>


NZ police affidavits show use of PRISM for surveillance - <AUTHOR> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/354407,nz-police-affidavits-show-use-of-prism-for-surveillance.aspx

<comment><USER2> It's currently being discussed over at slashdot.org too:

[http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/08/23/0153227/nz-police- go...](http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/08/23/0153227/nz-police-got-prism- data-before-raid-on-dotcom)

</comment><comment><USER3> I've been talking about the Dotcom issues with a number of people for a while now, and I (or we) have come to the conclusion that there was one surprisingly simple reason that action was taken to bring him down: the promo video. It featured like 20 superstars who're all really big. From the perspective of big media it was something dangerously close to legitimizing piracy on an unprecedented scale in the eyes of the public as means to get music, movies, etc. If the video was never released no big raid would have taken place (it was more symbolic than anything, anyway -- Dotcom made the big flashy promo video, something equally dramatic needed to be done to dethrone its legitimacy -- something that your aunt tells your mother ("oh, your son uses Megaupload?! You know that Kim Dotcom -- the guy who made it, he was on the news -- he was arrested you know that right?"). I think gov't was convinced to take action by big media probably with an appeal like "hey, they don't buy our stuff, that means no tax dollar for you".

</comment><comment><USER4> We have Keith Alexander visiting NL on a damage control tour as a speaker on the closed 'Masters in Security' symposium in September this year.

They should organize that thing in Brazil instead of here.

This guy and his minions have breached the privacy laws of the EU in ways that defy the imagination and yet he's coming here to speak. I guess if he were detained there would always be the invade the Hague option.

This is not just limited to the Anglosphere.

</comment><comment><USER5> It's the tipping point - worldwide, comprehensive surveillance used not to defeat the "enemies of civilisation " but enforce copyright law.

The folks who set it up may sit back now and think, it's ok, we are still in charge, we won't let it get out of hand.

But as Bane says "Do you feel in charge?"

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> It seems reasonable to expect the same conditions for the other 4 "Five Eyes" countries [0], too:

\- Australia

\- Canada

\- United Kingdom

\- United States of America

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement)

<comment><USER2> So if PRISM was used to gather evidence is Kim Dotcom a threat to US National Security? The copyright lobby in DC must have some serious sway. Dotcom is hardly Osama Bin Laden. Maybe all foreign nationals are fair game, makes US one way extradition treaties all the worse.

<comment><USER6> Off their website, "The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information."

So yes. Foreign nationals are all fair game. One of their two _explicit_ goals is to be able to listen to everyone and everything that does not fall under US privacy law.

<comment><USER7> Seems kinda hostile to treat all foreigners as "rights-free persons". The United States was built on immigration. I can't believe that the people in charge don't see how destructive this attitude is for the global neighborhood's relationship to the US.

<comment><USER8> It's surreal how quickly "we don't have an obligation to protect the rights of non-citizens" gets twisted into "we're allowed to abuse the rights of non- citizens".</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Is the Netherlands becoming a narco-state? - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50821542 <comment><USER2> What also doesnt help is that drugs is kind-a accepted in the party scene. XTC, Cocaine, in certain circles its quite normal that its used. And buying it is very easy.

Also the police doesn't prioritize handling this. I heard that accross one police station taxis would stop, get somebody in the cart, drive 100m, and then the person gets out. The police knew that drugs was being dealed here, but they didnt prioritize dealing with that. I don;t know exactly why.

Also: In the evening/night, in Amsterdam city centry, you can see certain guys wandering around: They are drugs dealers, everybody who know how to recognize them will see them popup everywhere. Including the police.

But as long as the police doesn't SEE them dealing the drugs, they cant do anything.

That including tall the XTC producing labs in the south of holland, and the perfect infrastructure, big harbours make the Netherlands an ideal breeding ground for big drugs networks.

To be honest, i think we should legalize more, and accept that there is a market for it. Yes i'm dutch too :-)

<comment><USER3> >everybody who know how to recognize them will see them popup everywhere.

Just out of curiosity, what are the tells for a drug dealer in Amsterdam? Asking for a friend.

<comment><USER4> Black (or of African descent), alert, hands in hoodie's pockets, locking gazes, and trying to understand the message in your gaze. Usually everyone's moving except them (except people on their phones), when they move it's back and forth within a short distance.

Before you scream: "Racist!"

I'm black (African, to be precise). I'm describing my experience in several places in Germany (where I live), Prague, and Amsterdam. I trade nods (of acknowledgement) with them and sometimes stop to speak with the Africans who speak my type of pidgin English.

<comment><USER5> These are just runners. A significant portion of the (Amsterdam) drug trade is handled by the so-called mocro-maffia, a group of predominantly Moroccan- descended criminals. Much of the Dutch production is however commonly in Dutch hands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Answer: no. Not by any real definition of a narco-state[1]. There is a lot of drug trafficking/production, but there is no meaningful infiltration into the official institutions/government.

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco- state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-state)

<comment><USER7> Ah, of course, "Betteridge's law of headlines" [1]

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

<comment> blaser-waffle This could be the theme of HN.

"Is React going to upend the programming world forever?!"

"AMD Soars, is Intel's time over?"

etc. etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I hope XTC gets legalized in the Netherlands as soon as possible. One of the ruling parties (D66) is currently investigating a proposal to do so.

We are a very large producer (the largest?) and the stuff is not harmful enough to warrant the prohibition and all of the crime it entails.

<comment><USER9> MDMA can be incredibly harmful, especially when used frequently.

<comment><USER10> So can alcohol and smoking.

<comment><USER11> So can cheeseburgers.

<comment><USER12> And sugar.

<comment><USER13> And sunlight.

<comment><USER14> And water. Especially when on MDMA.

<comment><USER15> Every party needs that one guys whos job it to stop everyone else accidentally drowning themselves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> > They are aspirational, they are looking for a career in the underworld.

I bet they would have been really happy to become corporate lawyers, highly paid computer programmers or big-4 accountants, but I have a slight feeling those career opportunities were never quite open for them (except for a very lucky few). In other words, if you only provide a "life of crime" as a way of getting out of poverty you can be sure that there be will lots and lots of people choosing that. And who can blame them?

<comment><USER17> The thing is, they have so many opportunities in the Netherlands. The true problem is the culture, and I'm not talking about maroccan culture, but "mocro". This is a culture that developed over 3/4 generations where the criminal path is the "cool" option. The right basically imported them to do jobs the dutch felt too good for. Then they were told by the left not to hit their kids, but weren't told how to raise them instead. All respect for the father (important in that culture) got lost and the kids ended on the streets, giving each other a feed back loop to "screw those stupid dutchies". The dutch also failed in regards of spreading them, which allowed for this culture to develop.

<comment><USER17> For example, white or black schools were unthinkable about 20 years ago. It simply didn't exist because everything was mixed. Nowadays this is a real thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> For those like me who never heard the term "supergrass" before, and are even more confused after Googling and finding out the entire first page of results are about an English rock band of that name:

> Supergrass is a British slang term for an informant who turns Queen's > evidence, often in return for protection and immunity from prosecution. In > the British criminal world, police informants have been called "grasses" > since the late 1930s, and the "super" prefix was coined by journalists in > the early 1970s to describe those who witnessed against fellow criminals in > a series of high-profile mass trials at the time

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_(informant)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_\(informant\))

</comment><comment><USER19> I like how the conservative BBC, writing from a country whose murder rate is double that of the Netherlands, is trying to hype up violence Amsterdam because they don't like drugs. What a bunch of shit.

<comment><USER5> Even so, liquidations are on the up in the Netherlands, and they are almost always drug-mob related. There's not enough money to patrol the south-Dutch countryside for illegal production and disposal, which is turning into the number one environmental issue the country has (apart from climate-related problems). The Police of Amsterdam had to shutter their major crimes unit for lack of funding, Dutch Police has some of the worst solving rates in Europe anyway, liquidations are predominantly in this city and are spilling over into non-criminal life, lawyers are being killed in the streets, are recusing themselves every day.

Thing may not be as violent as in Britain, but the country is on course for it, mainly due to drug related criminal activity. Some newspapers, even the justice minister recently, theorize that the lack of experience of Police in dealing with major crime is just not well developed in general, which together with a generally relaxed attitude and a central and well connected location in Europe (port of Rotterdam, airport of Amsterdam) make the country an ideal place to conduct such drug-business in relative quiet.

<comment><USER14> > lawyers are being killed in the streets

I mean... that happened once.

<comment><USER5> Derk Wiersum, Philippe Schol recently. I lost track of the number of recusations. The professional club has openend a hotline for judges and laywers in case of threats (which largely go unreported in the media for obvious reasons) [1].

This all is unprecedented.

[1] [https://www.advocatenorde.nl/nieuws/contactpunt- beroepsgroep...](https://www.advocatenorde.nl/nieuws/contactpunt- beroepsgroepen-ingesteld-voor-advocaten-en-rechters)

<comment><USER14> I stand somewhat corrected. There was indeed just one lawyer killed in the, Derk, while Philippe was only shot in the leg.

Either way, this is terrifying and would have never expected this in the Netherlands.

<comment><USER5> Most liquidations (attempts) are indeed other criminals, so far, but also that number is rising. A somewhat dated (2016) timeline from Amsterdam newspaper Het Parool [1].

The scary thing is that the Netherlands basically doesnt have major crimes units. There a good forensics bureau, which is also under heavy strain [2], and a small department at the National Police. That makes is trivial for hardened criminals to stay under the radar: there is (almost) no radar.

[1] [https://www.parool.nl/nieuws/tijdlijn-de-vete-in-de- marokkaa...](https://www.parool.nl/nieuws/tijdlijn-de-vete-in-de-marokkaans- amsterdamse-onderwereld~b7ba8f56/) [2] [https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/07/13/nfi-onderzocht- wegens-v...](https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/07/13/nfi-onderzocht-wegens- verdenking-van-misstanden-a1610022)

<comment><USER14> This saddens me deeply. The Netherlands is my favorite country.

Is this something that concerns people around you? Is it like a major shock to everybody?

<comment><USER5> Unfortunately, I think a less favorable Dutch trait lies at the root for a lack of interest in such matters: people believe so strongly this is a nice and 'civilized' place, most people refuse to even entertain the idea anything could be seriously out of whack in 'paradise'.

There is a sort of reinforcing feedback loop to preferring to pretend all is well: to most people things of course are usually well and if everyone thinks all is well most people will behave well. But if you're one of the unlucky ones affected by such issues, you'll find it very difficult to convince people, after all, all is well.

<comment><USER14> Thank you for the comment. To be fair, the Netherlands is as close to paradise as I can imagine, as long as the definition of paradise is not one of palm trees and warm weather.

Even though I am outraged by what is happening, I can't help but feel that something is happening to tackle this. The Netherlands is a very sane place, after all, and I'd like to think that whoever can do something about this is doing something about it.

<comment><USER5> I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. The Ministry of Justice is widely reported to be in disarray, a fiefdom with warring factions out of control, all the while neoliberalist governments have been gutting it, as have the Police (hence the cancellation of the Major Crimes unit in Amsterdam, which was tiny to begin with) and the prosecutors office, and legal assistance and general availability of the judiciary to citizens (closure of courthouses).

Things are on course to become worse, at this time. Carefully some people start to suggest we need Italian-style investments to be able to track, uncover and handle this level and amount of crime, but we are nowhere near understanding or funding that. There is just no expertise, and no(t much) electoral pressure to fund it. Half of our 'sanity' is simply looking away from problems and hoping they pass of their own accord. That works sometimes, but here I'm not getting my hopes up.

<comment><USER14> I am truly heartbroken to hear this. I simply refuse to believe that the Netherlands will go from heaven on earth to crime ridden due to drugs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> betteridge</comment>


Five Hundred and Seven Mechanical Movements (1868) - <AUTHOR> http://books.google.com/books?id=vOhIAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q&f=false

<comment><USER2> Of interest is also 507movements.com, which is trying to provide animated versions of the movements.

Most aren't done yet, of course, but as you click through, you can find some interesting ones:

<http://507movements.com/mm_038.html> <http://507movements.com/mm_123.html> <http://507movements.com/mm_223.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> That is awesome! Many thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is a great book, that and Watt's book on steam and others which talk in pretty simple terms about how to make things for your steampunk collection.

If you are looking for fun things to print on your 3D printer you can make a number of interesting clock mechanisms, and from there some interesting pieces for an automaton. Lots of fun.

My favorite btw:

 _"226. This movement is designed to double the speed by gears of equal diameters and numbers of teeth—a result once generally supposed to be impossible. Six bevel-gears are employed. The gear on the shaft, B, is in gear with two others—one on the shaft, F, and the other on the same hollow shaft with C, which turns loosely on F. The gear, D, is carried by the frame, A, which, being fast on the shaft, F, is made to rotate, and therefore takes round D with it. E is loose on the shaft, F, and gears with D. Now, suppose the two gears on the hollow shaft, C, were removed and D prevented from turning on its axis ; one revolution given to the gear on B would cause the frame, A, also to receive one revolution, and as this frame carries with it the gear, D, gearing with E, one revolution would be imparted to E; but if the gears on the hollow shaft, C, were replaced, D would receive also a revolution on its axis during the one revolution of B, and thus would produce two revolutions of E."_

<comment><USER4> Which specific watt's book ?

<comment><USER3> This is the one I was thinking of : <http://books.google.com/books?id=raZKAAAAMAAJ> but it's not written by Watt, for some reason I thought it was.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's baffling that Google requires a captcha to download this book, which prevents anyone (actually no one) from efficiently downloading all of these books, and that google adds a ridiculous page to the front, self-servingly begging the reader not to remove, but really just serving as an ad for Google. I'm not saying Google doesn't deserve credit for digitizing these, but they should not be restricting access or defacing the book. The book is public domain and belongs to everyone. It's not more content for them to use to drive ad revenue. So much for "don't be evil".

<comment><USER6> A minute of googling and you can find a direct download from other databases, for instance: <http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/bib.php?m=15> . But yes, that's awful that Google is blocking this stuff -- in my country it is even entirely blocked becuase "Google Play does not offer books yet".

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I love this book, but I got tired of having to flip through each page to find the drawing I wanted, so I put them all into a giant poster set with every drawing on it. I thought some other nerds might be interested, so it's up for sale here: [http://society6.com/RettgerGalactic/Five-Hundred-and- Seven-M...](http://society6.com/RettgerGalactic/Five-Hundred-and-Seven- Mechanical-Movements-Poster-Part-I)

</comment><comment><USER8> How does one find such rarities without having prior knowledge about the book or author.

I downloaded a copy for keepsakes

<comment><AUTHOR> I ran across this book while I was researching the caloric engine. Momentary obsessions can be very rewarding sometimes. :)

<comment><USER9> Congratulations on a very cool historical find.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Similar book is "Computing Mechanisms and Linkages" by Antonín Svoboda from 1948. He worked on anti aircraft artillery sights which would track moving aircraft. This is probably first book dedicated to practical construction of computers.

</comment><comment><USER11> For a treasure trove of technical books like this, check out Lindsay Publications:

<http://www.lindsaybks.com/>

</comment><comment><USER12> I have a copy of this book which Amazon recommended to me for some wonderful reason. Makes a for great bathroom pondering.

</comment><comment><USER13> I love this. In fact, it's older age is a boon as it predates the hyper specialization that leads to none of us being able to do anything 'on our own'. This is practically a mechanical hackers how-to book -- The stuff you need to know to build stuff on your own.

</comment><comment><USER14> 19th century 'Design Patterns'</comment>


Vim 8.1 is available - Anthony-G https://www.vim.org/vim-8.1-released.php <comment><AUTHOR> > The main new feature of Vim 8.1 is support for running a terminal in a Vim > window.

Well, my first reaction to reading this is that vim doesn't need this. What's wrong with opening another terminal Xorg window (like xterm)? If you're not using Xorg because you're in the linux console or through a ssh connection, what's wrong with terminal multiplexers (like tmux)? If Vim was already started when you realized you wanted a shell, what's wrong with Ctrl-Z to get to the parent process shell or :shell to open a shell subprocess?

Vim is a text editor, but now it seems it's a terminal multiplexer, too.

Something I really like about vim is that it stuck closer to the unix philosophy of doing one thing well and being highly compatible with the rest of the OS environment for more features through the universal interface of text. This makes it seem like it's trying to move closer to emacs's way of doing things by having stuff integrated and being a complete development environment instead of letting the whole orchestra of the OS components be the environment.

<comment><USER2> > Something I really like about vim is that it stuck closer to the unix > philosophy of doing one thing well

You mean _relative to Emacs_. Because otherwise that belief makes no sense. It's an urban legend that was used as an excuse for Vim's limitations, it has no basis in reality. Zero.

Nor does the "do one thing" slogan match Bram's own goals for the project. Again, it was a rumor passed along and repeated without verification, just like the rumor that Vim supported DOS, OS/2, etc., even though no one had checked whether that was actually true.

Vim has its own blowfish implementation, an internal spellchecker, an 11k LOC plugin called netrw which doesn't follow Vim's own interface conventions. Vim also now has the "LogiPat" plugin which adds yet another way to build regular expressions, hiding Vim's own regex flavor. Vim has builtin NetBeans integration, Sun workshop integration.

> and being highly compatible with the rest of the OS environment for more > features through the universal interface of text.

You mean because it pipes stdio streams?

<comment><AUTHOR> > You mean because it pipes stdio streams?

Yes, I was referring to :[range]!, :[range]w !, and :[range]r !.

And yes, I guess I meant relative to Emacs. I see it as the main design dichotomy between them.

However, while vim does have built-in features that go against this ideal, they are extraneous features, not a core part of vim. I guess my post was a rant against adding yet another one of those kinds of features that lead it to be used in a way that departs from the unix philosophy even more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Where can I find this "terminal debugger plugin"? Btw, terminal can be opened using `:terminal`, in case you're wondering (the release notes should really show how to use the new features).

<comment><USER3> Nevermind. If you check `vim-use` mailing group release email, you can see that there's `help version8.1` command which discusses the new release in more details.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Same discussion can be found here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17102133](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17102133)

</comment><comment><USER5> Oh... nvim had this along time ago.</comment>


The United States Is Making the Soviet Union's Mistakes - <AUTHOR> https://warisboring.com/the-united-states-is-making-the-soviet-unions-mistakes/ <comment><USER2> I am a French citizen, but I admired the USA all my life and still does. I understand that life is complex and things are not black and white. I feel in this excellent article the pain of a citizen loving its country.

Many thanks Mr Astore.

</comment><comment><USER3> On the specific issue of dependence on weapons sales, I think the author is wrong. In 2016, US weapons exports were $33.6B, against total GDP of $18.5T and exports of $1.47T.

It's a drop in the bucket.

</comment><comment><USER4> The United States has been making the same mistake for decades - it was called "globalization". Globalization was necessary to finance the Imperial War Machine. I think this was covered in Perkin's Confessions of an Economic Hitman [1][2] (my earlier comment on this: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13442222](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13442222) ).

[1] [https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1576755126](https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1576755126) [2] [https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1626566763](https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1626566763) (2016 edition, which I haven't yet read)

This quote is on the right track:

> In February, if you remember—and given the deluge of news, half news, rumor, > and innuendo, who can remember anything these days?—Donald Trump memorably > compared the United States to Russia. When Bill O'Reilly called Vladimir > Putin "a killer" in an interview with the new president, he responded that > there was little difference between us and them, for—as he put it—we had our > killers, too, and weren't exactly innocents abroad when it came to world > affairs. "There are a lot of killers. You think our country's so innocent?" > he said. > > The president has said a lot of outlandish things in his first > months in office, but here he was on to something.

The rest of the article doesn't demonstrates that the author doesn't understand President Trump's modus operandi [3]...

[3] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13538462](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13538462) (also see Scott Adams' blog for commentary on El Presidente Trump as a "persuader").

I think El Presidente wants to do a good job, but he's in charge of a briar patch. He can't do everything himself, and is at the mercy of his advisors... As long as El Presidente keeps his eye on the bigger picture, America still has a chance.

P.S. Remember that the _Briar Patch_ tricked President Obama into authorizing the Libyan regime-change operation [3]. President Obama has said that not adopting the "you break it you bought it" policy (thereby allowing chaos to replace the stability that the Libyans used to enjoy) was his biggest mistake.

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#2011_Civil_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#2011_Civil_War)</comment>


Ask HN: Recommend me a statically typed functional language - <AUTHOR> In particular I'm looking for a language I can use to create REST APIs/GraphQL services. <comment><USER2> What is your rational for wanting a statically typed language?</comment>


The complicated confidence of eyewitness memory - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/12/i-think-this-is-the-guy-the-complicated-confidence-of-eyewitness-memory/ <comment><USER2> This article discusses research which shows that eyewitness' confidence in an identification when they first make it is reasonably predictive of whether the identified suspect is guilty, but confidence later at trial is not.

Given how structured the pick-person-from-lineup ritual is, it would be trivially easy to record a witness' reactions and level of initial confidence. If the US criminal justice system cared at all about truth, it would be doing this and would have been doing it decades ago.

But they don't care. This is one more facet of an extensive pattern of corruption, including dropping the number of trials-per-arrest to near zero and faking an entire field of forensic science ([http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudenc...](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/04/fbi_s_flawed_forensics_expert_testimony_hair_analysis_bite_marks_fingerprints.html)).

</comment><comment><USER3> I had this happen firsthand - witnessed two cars racing on the street, one hit a light pole, the other ran off.

I even knew at the time that eye witness testimony could be unreliable. I tried to keep in mind the description of the other car as I waited for the officer - and accidentally overheard another witness describe the car. I immediately could no longer discern whether the color in my mind was the real color or a newly formed memory.

It was super frustrating ... And frightening.

<comment><USER4> You've reminded me of a quote from the great Christopher Nolan film, Memento:

 _Memory can change the shape of a room; it can change the color of a car. And memories can be distorted. They 're just an interpretation, they're not a record, and they're irrelevant if you have the facts._

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Unless this information gets before the judge and/or jury; it is useless. A defense attorney bringing up any one of the studies mentioned here would be sanctioned by the judge. Even if the studies show that 75% of the time, eyewitness identification is wrong; you might be dealing with the 25% of the time when the identification is correct. That is for the trier of fact. It is unfortunate--no, tragic--because eyewitness misidentification is commonplace.

<comment><USER6> Did you get the 75% number from the article? Because what the article in fact said was that 72% of cases _that are subsequently overturned by DNA evidence_ involve mistaken eyewitness identification, which is very different than 75% of all eyewitness identifications.

<comment><USER7> I interpreted the 75% as a hypothetical.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Reminds me of something I heard once. I don't remember who said it and I'm paraphrasing but...

> _" In the scientific community, eyewitness testimony is the least credible > evidence there is; in the legal community, it is the most credible."_

<comment><USER9> Pretty sure that was Neil deGrasse Tyson, from a talk about UFOs and other paranormal phenomena.

<comment><USER8> I've watched a number of his talks on those subjects so you're probably right.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Mobile vs. Web Development "Gotchas" Personal Stories - <AUTHOR> Would you be willing to share any major "gotchas" from personal experience about getting started building mobile apps when coming from a background in web development?
Assumptions from web dev that don't work in mobile dev? etc.
Particularly curious with regards to working in React Native vs React but any insight would be appreciated.
Thank you! <comment><USER2> Mobile is a lot of fun, some things are different other things are the same. Some stuff off the top of my head, I know some of them still apply to web dev but they're more pronounced on mobile:

* Your data should be cached across sessions and refresh periodically, be pushed or respond to the user refreshing. Depending on how complex your app is and what it does you may need some partial syncing behavior, this is a difficult thing to get perfect and often people opt for using a service to handle this. You may need to implement migrations, polling and queues to get your app syncing correctly and have your UI reflect all of these states.

* On the web your app throwing an error may or may not crash the whole app depending on how it's built, it might still be partially useable. In either case users on the web generally know to just command+r or reload the page. On mobile the whole thing dies and worst case scenario the user deletes your app or leaves you a bad review.

* Developers often complain about the review process (understandably) and it can be really irritating, especially you're used to just pushing fixes immediately. At the same time it does add an extra layer of QA to the app, sometimes app store review will catch something you missed.

* React Native specific I would say depending on what you're doing don't assume you won't have to write any native code or understand some platform APIs. If you're doing anything unusual then be prepared to write some bridging code or debug some cryptic errors. Keep your dependencies low if you can, this is a real pain to deal with in React Native and turned me off it. If you're using Expo, it'll balloon your binary to around 50mb and you won't have access to a lot of hardware APIs without ejecting. The whole expo release / publish / hot update stuff is great though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for this perspective, very helpful!</comment></comment>


Black Mirror: Official Trailer – Season 3 - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDiYGjp5iFg <comment><USER2> So happy about this. I absolutely loved the first two seasons. While the episodes are very dark and disturbing at times, the imagination and world view of the series is way ahead of its times.

My favorite episodes so far:

S01E03 : The entire history of you, S02E01 : Be right back, S02E02 : White bear, Special : White Christmas .

</comment><comment><USER3> Charlie Brooker is amazing, love everything he does.</comment>