Having Kids - <AUTHOR> http://paulgraham.com/kids.html <comment><USER5> Hey guys. Anyone else have the experience of having kids, getting a burst of energy, but of course all that energy goes directly back into the kids and house, and you have absolutely no life for 3-5 years or more? Because my kids are 2 and 4 and so far it's been 4 years of no life, no freelance clients, almost no learning/hobbies, just 35-40 hours a week of working as much as I can at the office and then everything is about the kids. Until everyone goes to bed, then maybe I can think about something interesting to work on for a couple hours before sleeping well less than 7 hours of healthy sleep. Or do you even give that up, and as soon as the kids are in bed it's time for the bedtime routine for yourself?

Just looking for some dads who can relate and maybe give some wisdom on the subject of having young kids and losing your ability to work on something interesting--which to be fair I never did before having kids because I was unmotivated, having not had that burst of energy yet...

<comment><USER6> It gets better - My kids range from 14 to 9.The 14 year old is hanging out with friends and making jewelry. The 12 year old is sitting in my bedroom, reading. The 9 year old is playing games. I'm coding on personal projects, and my wife is in the basement making blankets. We have an entire day of just all doing whatever we want. Weekdays are busier with school and work, but you the point is that you do get your time back, once the kids are old enough to have some independence and interests of their own.

I'd recommend just enjoying being a parent while they are young. They need you at this age. Play with them, read to them, and all that. Write down ideas you'd like to pursue in a couple years when your free time returns. And you can be confident that it will return.

<comment><USER7> Thank you for this. My son is 2 and legally blind, so needless to say we have no life outside of him for now, but he is a joy. I would trade none of this for nothing.

Often I feel like I will never again be able to have a life, read a book, finish a project, have an idea. I know that it gets better and that I should cherish the moments we have while he is so young (and I do), but it's hard to see more than a foot in front of you, so to speak. Thanks.

<comment><USER8> Our son is profoundly autistic and will probably need care all his life.

He's 4 now and I wouldn't change him for the world, but it's taken 4 years to really come to terms with his condition and our ongoing role as parents and carers.

<comment><USER9> I always thought it would be incredibly hard to have a child with difficulties like yours. I teach a gymnastics club once a week and have an autistic kid there and instead of being problem she is one of the most rewarding ones to teach (in the limited time I have to spend with her). I'm not in any way a good teacher, but I'm learning a lot from her and actually get a lot out of it myself. I'm sure it's much harder full time, but in the end it's just the same challenge all parents have, to try and prepare your kids for life and hopefully give them a happy life.

<comment><USER10> It varies a lot from child to child and a lot depends on the environment. Our 5yo son, for example, finally starts speaking in 2+ words sentences and counts up to 20 after two years of therapy. Before we started the therapy we didn't think he could ever get even to this point.

<comment><USER11> That is tough. My mom was a speech language pathologist and I grew up around kids in therapy (and had fun learning sign with the deaf kids). I hope his progress is rewarding now that you can see some results. Going through it, for me, is so hard to appreciate the small improvements. I can only image two full years. I hope you continue to see progress!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I don't have kids.

However, I teach up to 18 hours a day with children of various ages. I've done this for 22 years.

I also have been the de facto babysitter for my family since I was 14. Kids in my home almost constantly.

The #1 thing I've learned is that kids love to help, . If you are busy and shush them away then they'll cause havoc. Involve them ever so slightly and you can continue your task.

Realizing this was the biggest boon to my productivity that I've had in my life. Sometimes the kids can increase your output by utilizing their curious/helpful minds or attempting to apply your thoughts in their space.

I'm sure this would be different if it were my children, but I constantly see parents making the mistake of thinking that their thoughts/activities and mutually exclusive to their children's thoughts/activities. They're not.

It does take time to learn to engage and frame your thoughts/activities, but children are only a pure attention sucker if you treat them as a distraction.

<comment><USER13> > _kids love to help [ ... ] Involve them ever so slightly and you can > continue your task._

I think it can be a mindset or awareness thing, but some people are also resistant to involving anyone else in their stuff.

It requires having an attitude where you believe others might have have something worthwhile to contribute, and it requires exercising faith in that person. And thinking through how they might contribute and/or what reasonable limits are. Some people aren't willing to do that, and they tend to shut people out so they keep control. (This applies to both kids and adults.)

IMHO (as a non-parent), it might actually be way better parenting, too, if you can get this right. People often respond well if you give them a stake in things and responsibility for something (assuming it's not genuinely more than they can handle). You're telling them you believe in them and giving them an opportunity to grow. Many people will take that opportunity. And if you always avoid giving them such opportunities, you're implicitly suggesting you don't think they can handle it. Developmentally, I think a kid needs to have these experiences where they see that they are trusted with things, learn to step up, see that their contributions fit in somewhere, and see how to do more of that. If they don't, they are probably going to go out into the world not really expecting anyone to want their contribution.

<comment><USER12> I think that's the most succinct way to put it: Give children stake in your interests.

It doesn't even have to be direct. If I'm working on a lesson (I teach technology), I can ask the kid to come up with some ideas, help clean the room, decide on what to have for lunch, help me grade assignments, etc...

At home it's the same. Help clean, ask if they can help me find a mistake I made, ask about food, ask them to comb my hair (funny, but kids 3-10 love doing this for some reason), ask them to put some music on for us, etc...

Of course it doesn't always stick and the kid wants some other attention, but when it _does_ stick I find it to be as beneficial as the time lost.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So my experience was the opposite. I came in _expecting_ this great "chemical change" where suddenly the world revolved around my kids and their future.

Well the latter part is true: my world now revolves around them and their futures. But chemical change? No. It's just the responsibility I have now. There's never a break. It's all-encompassing. I mean, it's survivable, I can deal with it, and I do the best I can, but, while it's certainly not PC to say, I regret it. I thought it would be great, and it's not.

What would I be doing so much better with my time had I not had kids? I don't know. Probably nothing. But it doesn't change the fact. I was happier before.

This article made me angry. That's great that Paul has such a wonderful experience. I'm happy for him. But don't act like you can speak for everyone.

<comment><USER15> Thank you for posting your perspective. As someone who's contemplating having kids in the distant future, I'm wondering if there's a way to predict whether these chemical changes will occur for me or not. Do you have any insights here?

In particular, I'm curious about these questions pertaining to your life prior to having children:

\- From 1 to 10, how much did you enjoy helping a friend out when it was a mild inconvenience to yourself?

\- From 1 to 10, how positive of an emotional reaction do you get when you see a cute dog?

I have a completely unfounded hypothesis that the 'chemical' changes that PG describes are akin to how our brains react when we see cute pets.

<comment> cadence- I think it depends on how much you want to have kids. If you feel very strongly about it, then go ahead and have kids. You will probably experience the chemical changes in your brain that will help you cope. But if you are unsure about having kids, then don't have them. You don't need to over analyze it. If you feel the need to analyze, overthink and research it, then it seems to me like you don't have the kind of brain that will make it easy for you to be happy while dealing with all the parenting challenges.

I believe that if you need to carefully analyze whether to have kids, then you will also continue to analyze and think about your decision after you already have kids. And it will make you miserable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Worth noting that this is a western city- centric view of children. It's much different for people living in small communities or near parents and other family. Children spend way less time near parents when the neighborhood is familiar and safe enough, and instead spend most of their time playing with other kids. Parents today spend twice as much time with their kids than 2 generations ago, and it's probably not because they really really want to, but that there is no other option. I'm also not sure if kids spending so much of their childhood around adults instead of other kids is better.

[https://www.economist.com/graphic- detail/2017/11/27/parents-...](https://www.economist.com/graphic- detail/2017/11/27/parents-now-spend-twice-as-much-time-with-their-children- as-50-years-ago)

<comment><USER17> Which is funny because the average neighborhood is safer than ever before. What has gone way down is our tolerance for accidents (which I guess is a good thing, but certainly has its tradeoffs).

<comment><USER18> I'm not sure that's true, when comparing cities to towns (and parent specifically mentioned this was a city-centric view of kids.)

While there is less crime, there is a lot less space for kids to just run around, mostly because there's cars everywhere, which are obviously extremely unsafe for kids.

<comment><USER19> Yeah, this has me looking for a city where cars are kept on the outskirts, so that most of the city is safe for kids to live and participate in without our watching them constantly. I know this is a thing in other parts of the world, especially Europe, but I haven't found a good one in the US yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I agree with this a lot. I was pretty anti-kid, not in the sense that I didn't want them ever, but that I didn't want them "any time soon." My wife was this way too, until one day she wasn't. I still felt pretty ambivalent about the whole thing until our first was born.

Children really are interesting, and really do fill life with all kinds of quietly wonderful moments.

We live in San Francisco, which is very hilly. When we drive up and down steep hills, my daughters get so excited. They squeal with glee like they're riding a roller coaster, and beg us to drive up and down the hills again.

That may sound mundane, but when you're there, sharing the sheer joy of life with fellow humans, it's anything but.

Now looking back, the thing that I regret is that the modern world is pretty anti-kid, and makes things harder than they need to be. Cars, in particular, are terrible for kids. The roads are deadly, my number one fear is that they'll run into the street and get hit. Car seats are also the worst. Long road trips are physically painful for the kids, I'm sure, so we've cut back on those. I wish, very much, that I could find a car-free city in North America to move to, but this doesn't seem to exist.

<comment><USER21> The car-is-anti-human sentiment is one I can deeply empathize with. Just like oxygen and water, cars and their perils were with our generation since birth, and therefore for most are subconsciously taken for granted in life. But once you spend enough time in urban areas that have consciously rooted them out, you realize that their super loud noises, toxic smelly fumes, and omnipresent fear of death from them are indeed crushing to the human spirit. I'm also looking for cities in the U.S. that really do put "walkability" (and biking, e.g.) first. But the damage is so bad from the 20th century, thanks to the invention and explosive proliferation of the car, and socially the psychology of their existence so deeply rooted in most of our minds ("There could be no other way..."), that I don't see enough strength to this movement. I'm typing from South Beach in Miami, e.g., which I think would be a perfect home were it not for the (probably, on average by land use in many cities) ~40% ownership by cars. I've lived in e.g. Amsterdam where the entire transport system was built around biking, and that from experience was such a liberating mindset to have every day, being able to bike across the city in 15 minutes. Alternatively I do wonder about e.g. Barcelona's superblocks, about how the livability in small car-less or minimal car neighborhoods may improve (i.e. what small-scale neighborhoods without cars but also with sufficient amenities could be fantastic to live in?). Living on lush college campuses is typically a good example of where a much smaller percent of the land use goes to car transport, and it is expected that people walk and bike more - <USER2> across landscapes with a lot more green than dead concrete.

I'm wondering if there any new urban projects, ideally in the U.S, potentially on the scale of the superblocks or e.g. NYC's High Line / Atlanta's Beltline / Miami's Underline, where ecosystems are emerging beyond the reach of cars?

<comment><USER22> Have you heard of Culdesac? It's a YC company building the first 100% car-free neighbourhood in Temple, Arizona.

[https://culdesac.com](https://culdesac.com)

<comment><USER23> It's Tempe, not Temple and the neighborhood doesn't exist yet. Just announced recently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> _...most of the freedom I had before kids, I never used. I paid for it in loneliness, but I never used it._

Paul's written a lot of smart stuff, but this might be the smartest.

I took a lot of steps to protect my freedom before getting engaged to my partner, and I realize now that was a shitty tradeoff. Freedom was an unexercised resource I had, which is to say it was largely wasted on me. I spent a lot of time being lonely - not alone, which implies by choice, but _lonely_ \- having no steadfast companionship and with no alternative to that.

<comment><USER25> Well, as they say, it's not wasted time if you enjoyed wasting it.

<comment><USER26> Parent is saying he didn't enjoy wasting it. He didn't choose to be alone.

<comment><USER27> Except he says that he did: "I took a lot of steps to protect my freedom..."

<comment><USER28> That doesn't say he enjoyed it at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Ironically, this essay shows the biggest problem I have with having kids -- especially in the US, people with kids seem to single-mindedly focus on them and _can 't stop telling you about their kids_. What remains of their social lives and all their holidays seem to revolve around the kids. I think pg echoes a bit of this sentiment himself when he says:

> To some extent I'm like a religious cultist telling you that you'll be happy > if you join the cult too — but only because joining the cult will alter your > mind in a way that will make you happy to be a cult member.

My offhand guess is that this general situation is due to dual-earning families that live separately from the grandparents. This seems to be social experiment started after World War II, and from the point of view of an observer I can tell you it's not going great. I suspect that the traditional large joint family approach is probably best in case you do want to have kids and not have it completely upend your life.

<comment><USER30> I think it's the other way around: somehow we tried to build ourselves a civilization without children at all. I think in most human cultures, children are considered an important if not primary concern. Not having children well into adulthood is a modern privilege—one could even characterize modern childless adulthood as merely an extension of our own childhoods. But by starting to normalize childless adulthood, we've made the most normal and natural thing human beings do come across as a weird cultish type of social deviancy.

Logistically, extended families are a good idea. But I don't think they stop people from putting their children first in terms of life priorities. On the contrary, a culture where parenthood rather than childless adulthood is normal is one where talking about your kids is a universal common ground you can share with other adults. (People need to have lots of kids for extended families to be normal—everyone will have grandparents but not necessarily aunts and uncles). Maybe you're just observing one of these (sub)cultures from the outside.

<comment><USER27> There's a difference between using kid-talk as a way to find common ground and bond with other people, and being literally unable to talk about anything but your kids. That latter bit actually does happen with a disturbingly- significant number of my friends who are parents.

The main commonality among parents I know who are afflicted with this problem is that they have no or few relatives living nearby. Those who have relatives (especially their own parents) nearby seem to be more well adjusted. While they still talk about their kids a lot, they can at least speak about other interests and events unrelated to the kids.

One of my friends who also is able to talk about other things is a freelancer and is not a workaholic. I suspect number of hours worked to be correlated here too.

<comment><USER31> Don't people do this regardless though? Most people mainly talk about themselves and their interests. Kids are just a very common interest.

There are also a lot of people out there who only talk about work, or tech, or sports, or who hooked up with who, and anyone else who doesn't share that interest will be bored to tears hearing them go on and on and about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Note that PG has two incredibly important positive factors that make his experience of parenthood much better: he has a great partner, and he is very wealthy. People who don't have these power-ups might have much more mixed feelings about the experience.

I would actually like to have kids, but from a young age I decided that I would not do so unless I achieved financial independence. The reason is that if I were forced to stay in a job (or other life situation) that I hated for the sake of the kids, I would start to resent them.

<comment><USER33> 100% this for me, but I would go a step further. I don't want to birth kids into this exact situation.

If I have kids now, I'll have to work into old age, and so will my kids. That's a very sad situation in my view.

If I achieve financial independence personally, but I have kids who will have to toil their whole lives, then I'd feel I'm making a selfish choice. How could I explain to my kids, who would see nothing but a relaxed and happy life at home, that they now owe our system 40+ years of labor?

If I can achieve a level of wealth that would ensure my children could follow their dreams, then I'd love to have kids.

It's very hard to find a partner that would be able to say "Well, if we don't have $5M+ by age 40, we'll be childless, and that's fine. If we do make a lot of money, we'd love to have a big family."

I know lots of people here are doing it, but how can you ethically commit your unborn children to a lifetime of work?

And god forbid you have a child with disabilities and don't have a sizable financial buffer...

<comment><USER34> So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in?

You'd rather not have lived? Do you resent your parents having you?

[Questions, not rhetorical statements, genuine curiosity.]

It's certainly an issue for many when considering parenthood - is it fair to raise a child in this situation - but I've not seen it expressed so extremely as you have.

<comment><USER33> Honestly? No, yes, and somewhat.

> So you consider your life so far has been only pain, nothing of worth or > fulfillment because you've not had a nest of millions-of-dollars to lie in?

Not only pain, but definitely not actualized either. My life to date is a gamble that I'll maybe be able to achieve autonomy before death. If I was born into wealth, I would have started with autonomy.

Not everyone is cut out for work, and I have to dedicate pretty much 100% of my being to make it happen.

My week is consumed by work, my weekends are consumed by resting for more work. Maybe some people can compartmentalize work in such a way that it doesn't eat their life, but I haven't been able to figure that out yet.

> You'd rather not have lived?

To date? Yes, I suppose. But my hope is that I'll be eventually be able to buy my freedom, so maybe I'll eventually be thrilled that I struggled and achieved independence, if that ever happens.

I'm hoping that someday, by not having kids, I'll be able to stop working and give living a try. Maybe I'll be an artist? Or work on some kind of cause to help others? I might be getting too old for sports, but it'd be nice to physically train full-time for something to see what my physical capabilities are. Or maybe read the classics and study philosophy? I don't know, the point is, I can't know, because I can't pursue anything else full-time while working.

I don't really consider my 30-something years so far as much "living", because I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done. Even as a kid, it was only 60 days or so of summer vacation. Incidentally, that was the time I learned to write code, which ended up becoming a job because I couldn't learn anything else while trying to pass school.

> Do you resent your parents having you?

Somewhat, because I wouldn't have done it myself. I will never understand how they could toil for others for their entire lives and then think it would be great if we could continue the tradition for another generation.

I try not to be bitter about it because there's no sense in that. I can't really undo my parents choices, so I'm trying to make the best of things. But if I were somehow able to advise them before they decided to have me, I would have tried to politely decline existing.

From my perspective, I really only exist because they wanted children, so my purpose in their life is to bring them happiness. I can really only start setting my own purpose once I achieve enough autonomy that I don't have to work to exist.

If I can scrounge together enough wealth to retire before I die, I'll consider it an enormous victory. There's a good chance work will kill me before I can leave it. I'm pretty sure I'll never make enough to have kids.

I'm holding out for the chance that I'll be able to restart life in my 40s, but this time with a trust fund of my own creation. Then, without work, perhaps I'll be able to achieve a good life.

I know my view is considered extreme, but I don't see any other way to look at it.

<comment><USER35> I don't consider your view extreme. I think it is quite rational and probably what many people believe but are afraid to express in the face of the uncompromising exuberance of those who have children.

>I can't think of a time after childhood where I've had longer than 20 consecutive days without a job to be done.

This resonated with me in particular. I can't imagine placing another unwitting individual onto this ceaseless treadmill.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I have two kids (6 and 3) and if I had to do it all again I would not. I miss my old life. Not that it was anything special but the things we take for granted like grabbing a quick bite to eat at a diner or going to the bathroom becomes a chore. I realize it gets better but damn, years of tending to the kids flew by and I can't for the life of me recall what I did for fun.

my problem has been that I'm an overachiever and I've been career oriented for the most part of my life. I know there's a saying where folks on their deathbed would never say "I wish I could work another hour," but I don't know anything else besides work. I definitely need a hobby and I feel bad at times when I resent my kids because I can't do what I was able to do before.

<comment><USER37> As an overachiever, who has hobbies - but one of them is working a lot, I agree with much of what you said.

Just recently, in talking through my similar frustrations (I have a 6 & 9 yro) - I've realized I love being, and playing with my kids, but not doing the rote parenting. We've considered placing kids in afterschool care longer, having more babysitters, etc. We've also considered getting an "au pair" to be around me, but to do the basic block and tacklin g so I can focus on the bigger issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> One thing that I don't see much discussion on is a single income setup.

My wife was employed when our daughter was born (oh lord 13 years ago) but we had hired help (this was in India - that was a very affordable option). Eventually she decided to stay at home because she wanted more family time and quite possibly that's the best thing that ever happened to our family.

Suddenly all of us had time and the luxury of one person with flexible time is amazing.

My career hit an exponential growth after this and she has a major hand in it. I am able to enjoy a cycling habit (20hrs every week) because of this.

It was a hard decision at first. Obviouslt financially, we also hadnt accounted for how much of our identity was defined by the job, so that was interesting. Navigating friends and family who considered that to be THE defining thing was also interesting :). I obviously have a lot to write on this since it is still a thing :)

Overall Id suggest it to anyone who is willing and able to try.

<comment><USER39> In my observation a single income setup is some kind of local optimum. I've never met a full time homemaker who thinks she's getting a raw deal. It is a real job that requires an exceptional level of responsibility, creativity, and effort, but it's one that is extremely financially and emotionally rewarding. When I ask they all say, essentially, "We didn't want work just to hire someone else to raise our children for us." That said, part time hired help is very affordable in the USA too. You can get a fully qualified part time babysitter who is also willing to do light housework for about $15 an hour in California. I imagine in other states it's even more affordable.

When you look at the market value of the labor the homemaker does for the household, and consider that it accrues tax-free, the financial benefits are considerable. And there are also substantial tax benefits to married filing jointly when one spouse has no taxable income. For the arrangement to be successful though, the "working" spouse needs to fully recognize the value provided to the household and make sure it's well compensated, both emotionally and financially. If you can do that, it works extremely well.

<comment><USER40> > I've never met a full time homemaker who thinks she's getting a raw deal.

Until the nest empties, and they have no retirement funds or worthwhile employment options to speak of. If the breadwinner turns out to be more of a jerk than realized amidst the business of raising children, and maybe the homemaker learns by this time they've actually been exploited as a low-cost servant all this time, expected to continue in that capacity until death, then it can start feeling like a very raw deal _all_ _too_ _late_ , now feeling trapped in it as well.

A good friend's parents went through this, it was a few years of family crisis with the homemaker living with relatives wanting a divorce while she slowly had to accept there's effectively no other option financially; go home and sleep in the bed you didn't realize you were making.

Kids are a very effective diversion for setting this trap, men have been doing this to women for ages. At least now women can get jobs and delay having kids until after a career with some retirement savings and marketable skills development.

<comment><USER41> this has happened so much and there are more subtle forms of abuse.

Unfortunately even in my family, my mother, who was forced to have some big career gaps due to 3 kids, had a much lower pension compared to my father and my father considered it to be "fair" that each spends its own pension and split the bills equally. :(

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> One thing that started to bother me recently is the meaningless of life in general. Think about humans from a wide perspective - it all boils down to survival of the species and what difference does it make if we reproduce in a cave or a modern house? Sure there are more of us now, but does it really matter? We are driven by a simple algorithm - find a partner, reproduce, keep the babies alive and die. Repeat. No real reason, just an instinct shared by every living organism, everything else is just a facade. It's not like the existence of the universe depends on our survival, we could we wiped tomorrow and nothing would really change.

Oh, and having kids must bring joy, that's how evolution programmed us, otherwise at some point people would just consciously stop having babies and we would dissapear :-)

<comment><USER43> Oh, the age old question for meaning in life.

There are basically three possible answers to that:

1) The scientific one you alluded to. Our purpose is to make our genes survive (though that in turn serves no greater purpose, that's just the mechanics of evolution)

2) religious / spiritual reasons, if you believe in those

3) the realization that a rational meaning (or lack thereof) doesn't matter much if you feel a sense of purpose

Having kids moved me pretty firmly in camp 3), though I realize the irony that that's a direct consequence of how 1) works :-)

<comment><USER44> Finding meaning through kids means the kids then need to find meaning. It's kind of like a pyramid scheme.

<comment><USER45> You misread the comment. People who have kids, who aren't narcissists or psychopaths, have found their sense of purpose and fulfillment in life.

<comment><USER44> But the cycle continues as the kids then need to find their purpose, which is what I was getting at.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> One clear change that happened with me, once having a child -- is that I understood my Dad much more.

I understood what made him upset, and I understood how he reacted and why... I started showing same behavioral traits as him. But it was only after I had our first child.

Stuff that I took for granted when my Dad was doing it, now I understood, was actually meant to take an effort, on behalf of a parent.

Unfortunately, my Dad passed away weeks after my first child was born. It felt like the 'nature' decided to make a replacement.... and exchange the life of my still young dad, to our first child...

So I did not have the time to express back to him, my gratitude, my newly found understand of his sacrifices to make his children happy & confident, and, at the same time, isolated from bad/unfair stuff....

Therefore, my advice is, do not repeat my mistake. Show your parents, while they are alive -- that you understand their sacrifice, and you are prepared to do the same for your children....

<comment><USER47> That's my concern, I never want to become my father given my own painful upbringing.

Even further, I worry that if i ever have kids i'd have to distance myself from parents as I do not approve on how they live or manage their lives. As their child i can manage via effective boundaries and I'm able to ignore their stupidity.

If i ever have kids though, they will want to be part of their lives and I can't really say no and keep their delusions alive.

They think they did a good job raising me and they would use that as an argument and I would never want to enlighten them with what i really feel.

i wouldn't want them parenting my kids like they did me

they love/loved me but love isn't enough. i do care deeply for them, but i do not respect their judgement.

<comment><USER46> I understand that. I was lucky having dedicated parents, that were willing to sacrifice their own ambitions, and take risks that would clearly be more beneficial to me, rather than to them.

Others, might not have been so lucky.

For me, caring about my own children's health/well-being/future was bit eye opening, in the sense that I was a lot more egoistic, before becoming a parent.

I also think that recognition improved my spousal relationship.

And that's what I wanted to tell my Dad... but I missed that opportunity...

There is a lot of materials out there about family dynamics that get passed through generations. [1]

It is exceptionally difficult for an individual to recognize negative traits that must be filtered out, if he/she is to have a more normal relationships with their spouse and their children.

Most families have traits, that overtime, should be filtered out. But not forgotten.

Significant portion of my parent's upbringing was dictated that their parents went through (physical torture, captivity, war, loosing loved ones, loosing first families during war, real famine, property taken away, ridicule and persecution at work and otherwise, for their ethnic background and so on ).

My parents, filtered out lot of the family dynamics that was passed on to them due to the above.

But we did not forget what my grand parents went through..

And just like my parents, I do not excuse my own actions by saying 'well, my parents that that to me...' or anything like that.

It is a conscious act, not 'natural' (at least not for me), and I work on it with my spouse, recognizing that there is nothing wrong in improving what we learnt in our upbringing.

[1] [https://blogs.psychcentral.com/family/2012/03/family- dynamic...](https://blogs.psychcentral.com/family/2012/03/family-dynamics- passed-through-the-generations/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> As someone who has wrestled a lot with the question of whether I ever want kids, I've sought out data. One thing I came across was this: [https://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/google-confessional-your- se...](https://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/google-confessional-your-search- engine-knows-if-you-regret-having-kids/)

> Adults with children are 3.6 times more likely to tell Google they regret > their decision than are adults without children.

I'd be curious if others have data on this. I'm especially interested in how many people have a reaction like Paul Graham (a switch flipped, it's inconvenient but totally worth it) vs. how many end up feeling overwhelmed and regretful. The latter thought carries far more stigma, so it might be harder to know how many people experience this.

<comment><USER49> I endorse looking at data like this, but I think there is much better way to estimate how kids would affect your happiness: do activities that put you in extensive contact with kids, e.g., volunteer to baby sit for your friends/family, offer to tutor/advise neighborhood kids, and coach youth sports. (In addition to learning about yourself, you're helping out parents and kids when you do this, so win-win.)

Obviously these activities do not capture huge things about the 24/7 job that being a parent is, but they will probably tell you a lot more about how you relate to children than looking at population self-report data.

<comment><USER50> This might work for some people, but for me it would have been a worthless and tragically misleading signal. I got modest-at-best enjoyment from being around kids before I had one, but the past 10 years with our son has held many of the best experiences of my life. Your own kid is a very different thing than all the other kids you might spend time with.

My experience is more like pg describes, where I had a lot of trouble projecting what it would be like, and in retrospect all the rational pro/con analysis I did wasn't really getting to the core of the matter.

<comment><USER51> This is absolutely true. I love spending time with my kids and I really don't like being around most other people's kids.

<comment><USER49> Did you dislike it before you had kids?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> >Having kids is one of those intense types of experience that are hard to imagine unless you've had them. But it is not, as I implicitly believed before having kids, simply your DNA heading for the lifeboats.

But it is, because your entire biology has evolved for billions of years with the sole purpose of reproducing effectively. No amount of "I feel like I enjoy it" negates that it is programmed into you as an organism. It just re-enforces how integrated the drive is with your psychology and consciousness.

The negative points from the post:

      * less productive
      * less time for your ideas
      * less ambitious

If you're the type of person for which those points sounds disastrous, don't have kids. Get a pet instead. You can still fulfill that nurturing side of you without having it take a wrecking ball to your productivity.

<comment><USER53> I refer you to his later point: "On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?"

I'd argue that your ambition simply shifts upon having kids. If you channel that ambition into being a better parent everyone benefits.

And from an "accomplishment" perspective, I'd ask which of a would-be parent's projects are so world-changing that they'll be alive or still affecting things 70 years from now? If you're Elon Musk maybe you can make that argument, but for most people their kids will have more overall influence then their work ever will. So if you want to make an impact over the long term and aren't just satisfying an obsessive workaholic itch, kids can be a great way to do that.

<comment><USER54> > If you channel that ambition into being a better parent everyone benefits.

That's begging the question. Your original ambition doesn't benefit. What if it was something really good and worthwhile?

> for most people their kids will have more overall influence then their work > ever will.

This can't be the case, unless you think the amount of 'influence' always increases as generation pass (why?)

My kids are humans, just like me. If we're both selected at random, we should expect equal 'influence' for both. If I have some reason to think I'm above average in influence, then I should expect regression to the mean for my kids.

<comment><USER53> I'd say having kids is also really good and worthwhile if you raise them into responsible, productive adults.

Why would influence have to always increase? Kids have a lifespan as well, it's just much longer than most projects.

The piece of software I'm currently working on will almost certainly not be doing squat 20 years from now. It will have been replaced with something else or upgraded beyond all recognition. And if I wasn't there to write said code some other software developer would be hired to do it. My personal contributions will have zero or asymptotically approaching zero influence 20 years from now. Kids on the other hand...

Kids aren't entirely selected at random, you select your partner based on impulses evolutionarily designed to produce stronger offspring. Then you spend over a decade shaping their behavior, whether you choose to do so directly or not. If you're a responsible parent you teach your kids what you know so that they can build on it as they see fit, when they grow up. And then they pass along a diluted form of said lessons to grandchildren. Now there's no guarantee of this happening, tragedy can strike and you can mess it up. But it's an effective enough mechanism that, for most people, your indirect influence through raising kids will be far greater over time than your direct influence via your work. It's one of the ways generational wealth is formed.

If you can take an honest look at your work and say:

1\. If I don't do this no one else will, or they'll do it substantially worse

and

2\. Its direct or indirect impact will still be felt 70 years from now

Then sure, don't have kids. And I'm not being facetious, if you're working on some unique device or policy that shows real promise at saving/fundamentally improving lives and your leaving would set development back years or worse, that qualifies. Most people aren't doing stuff like that though, in part because simply being in a position to do so is largely luck. In that case, kids are probably a better bet.

<comment><USER55> What if every interaction we have matters and does influence the world, and what if having kids can improve the quality of those interactions?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Such a great thread with so many parents talking about how much joy they get from their children, especially ones with learning challenges. You all are really role models. Thank you.

One quick comment on PG's statement here: "Partly, and I won't deny it, this is because of serious chemical changes that happened almost instantly when our first child was born. It was like someone flipped a switch. I suddenly felt protective not just toward our child, but toward all children."

When I had my son I didn't feel anything different for the first few months. I felt bad as everyone said "something instantly changes" but I didn't feel anything. But a few months in, when he started to react to my efforts, and we did stuff together, I fell in love. Now I adore my children more than I knew possible.

So, if you're a parent who didn't feel an instant chemical reaction when your child arrived perhaps not a cause for alarm.

</comment><comment><USER57> > Before I had kids, I had moments of this kind of peace, but they were rarer.

My cynical take: certainly, for people with sufficiently stressful jobs, having kids is going to be less stressful. Still, it's far easier to switch jobs, or take up meditation. Plus, then I won't have that old stressful job!

> On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it won't > survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?

This definitely reads like it was written by someone who made a lot of money, and _then_ had kids. 13 years ago, he wrote: "Young startups are fragile. A society that trims its margins sharply will kill them all." You just need to have so much ambition you can afford to spare it, even though you're doing something where the margins are so thin they mean the difference between life and death!

</comment><comment><USER58> It's very simple why I haven't had children and why I won't be having them: I don't trust any of the people I've met in my life to raise any children I'd create them with, and I don't believe I'll be meeting anyone else where this would change.

Even if having children would reduce my loneliness, I simply don't think it's moral to subject them to any potential abuse or cruelty on the part of potential partners I've met in my life.

I'm old enough now that having children just doesn't make sense for me. I'd rather spend my time improving the lives of those that already exist, including my own.

<comment><USER59> > I don't trust any of the people I've met in my life to raise any children > I'd create them with, and I don't believe I'll be meeting anyone else where > this would change.

Do you trust yourself to raise these children? If so, why do you think you'd be better at it than everyone you've met?

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> I don't like kids. I don't want kids. I'm 46 and single and I don't want to date someone with kids. It drastically reduces my dating pool but I'm willing to live with that.

There are enough people on earth as it is. I don't feel like I need to increase that number.

<comment><USER61> At least sometime in your 40s, people stop saying "Oh, you'll change your mind. You'll want kids."

<comment><USER60> Which is why I stated my age :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Having kids don't automatically make you a better person. Anecdotally, most of the people I know are the same after having kids as they were before having kids. The only difference is that they're working an extra job.

The ones who coo and cuddle with their kids are those who would coo and cuddle any child they come into contact with. Those who are patient with their kids were patient before having children.

The chemical high from having a child doesn't necessarily change who you are. If anything, it simply amplifies existing traits by putting you through a high pressure, long-term project.

The biggest (positive) child-related change I've noticed? The sudden and prolonged surge of happiness when those children are out of the house. Everything else tends to be the effects of time blunting the worst of the negatives.

As a point of reference, I have no children of my own, but I had two teenage girls adopt me as their father. I spend several days a week tutoring and helping them. I get the high of watching them grow into themselves without having to live with them.

</comment><comment><USER63> Am coming to this discussion a bit late, but having raised two kids, now adults, the advice I would give myself 20 years ago would be this:

1\. Your children are not mini-me's. They are independent little munchkins that transition through confused, pained and painful teens into eventual adulthood. Don't expect them to behave or respond like you.

2\. Be present. This isn't about quantity of time spent or kinds of activities shared. It's about quality = anytime your kid knows you care and enjoy being with them.

3\. Focus on the journey not the outcomes. Read anything you can about "stoic parenting".

4\. Don't be a hypocrite. Every lesson you give your kid must be applicable to you. If not, then shut up. There's no faster way to parenting failure than hypocrisy.

I'm not sure if this advice would have changed things too much. But it would have made all our journeys easier.

</comment><comment><USER64> We have a 15 month old. She is probably the easiest kid imaginable, sleeps really well, eats really well, great temperament. It's still ridiculously hard work. My partner still isn't recovered from the birthing process (some latent muscle imbalances came out). She wants another one, I'm happy to stick with one healthy one. So incredibly hard to know what to do when _most_ stories you hear are about how it's better to have two than one.

If anyone has some research which says only children are totally fine I'd love to read it (even if just to confirm what I'd like to hear ;) heh.

We are happy we have her, mostly, but our old life was kick ass too. If you're not reasonably sure you want kids, just read some of these comments, you really should expect to (somewhat) leave your old life behind and enter a new stage, where looking after the new human is the top priority.

I still get out biking, playing squash, bike a bit, life definitely goes on, but it's definitely a rewarding sacrifice.

<comment><USER65> My oldest just graduated from college. Just like childhood, if feels long while you are in it, when it's over it feels like it went fast.

But, now I have a young adult that is permanently attached to me in a close and wonderful way for the rest of my life. I wouldn't trade any extra hours of netflix or going out to eat for having my own people.

Have as many kids as you are willing/able to have. I had 5. First one is a shock. Second one means one kid per parent. Third is now a full family, but the oldest is so thrilled about a sibling now and there is play and joy in the house. 4th and 5th don't really add any extra work (mentally) other than you have a few extra years dealing with kids. And you need a minivan. (which I love anyway for many reasons) The older the kids get the more they take care of themselves, and eventually add more to the family than they need.

Now, when my two oldest visit, we have a defacto party and we have so much fun hanging out and playing, talking, laughing, cooking together, making plans...

I get this for the rest of my life now.

Best investment I have ever made.

Edit: We know a family that both parents were single kids (they said their childhoods were lonely) so they had 7 kids and then adopted 7 more (all siblings from a messed up home). They love it, their house is like a dorm. I couldn't do this, so I think its so much about your life experience.

<comment><USER66> I have a 4 year old and a two month old. We're in a major metropolis, and most couples seem to choose between 0 and 1 kid, but my wife and I have both always said we wanted 3 or more. This was a nice perspective to hear. For the first 2 years of #1's life, I couldn't imagine having a second. But the feeling of "that was it, no more kids" only lasted like a month with #2.

One thing I'm noticing - I expected the joy to grow linearly with number of kids, but I think it actually grows linearly in number of relationships in the family. The interactions between them are so amazing to watch. I've always been really terrified to die, and now I definitely don't want to, because I want to be there for my kids... but if I know that they will have each other's back, I'm much more okay with not existing one day.

<comment><USER65> That is an interesting way of looking at the relationship connections with "joy" (in a generic manner perhaps?). My kids' interactions with each other certainly add more to our enjoyment than just 5 individual people separately.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> Wow, how serendipitous. My wife and I just arrived at the hospital after her water broke. Great article and lots of great advice on this thread.

In just a few hours I'm going to be a Dad. Parker, if you read this one day, hi! Your mom and I can't wait to meet you.

<comment><USER68> What an awesome post! Good luck

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> There are a few things I can identify that makes my experience with my own children same as PGs.

The first is extremely low expectations of what having children would be like. The last 7 years or my life have been the best, by far.

I have lost a lot of ambition, but I welcome the loss. It feels good to look at the lot I've carved out for myself, which is fine by any standard, and breathe and just enjoy my time and life with my kids.

Another thing that has bolstered my experience is a strong bond with my wife. I'm 40, and we've been together for 23 years. We know each other pretty well and have worked most of the bullshit out.

<comment><USER70> Wow, that's really impressive. 23 years of marriage at 40 is a rare (and amazing!) thing.

<comment><USER69> Well, we've been married for 17 and were together 6 years before, but thanks! :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> This is one of the best and most accurate things I have ever seen written about having kids - it truly is a paradigm shift for your life - in a good way.

My kid (5yo boy) is very outgoing and talks to just about anyone he meets, about anything that comes to his mind (which is usually some aspect of playing Minecraft or Slime Ranchers).

He gets so excited about it and tells them about his latest discovery like Minecraft portals or Quantum Slime.

When he does this, it's so easy to tell who has kids and who doesn't because the ones who do really engage in the conversation and the ones who don't (95% of the time) try to end the conversation as quickly as possible.

I think back to before I had kids and somehow I can't remember a version of me that was like that, but I probably was.

The thing that resonated with me most was when PG talked about finding peace.

There's so many random moments when I'm with my kid and I think, this, right now, is the happiest moment in my life.

<comment><USER72> I had this experience with nephews (I have 6 now, I think) and the kids conversations, taken at face value of their content, are just super boring. Repetitive, often make no sense, and really simplistic. It's like a football fan who doesn't even know much about football but keeps telling you about how his team is going big this year and playoff odds he read off 538. People with kids give kids a large leeway to be boring because they are used to doing this for their own kids, or as PG mentions because now they suddenly like all the kids, I dunno. People without kids just treat the conversation like it should be treated... except with a super boring acquaintance it's socially acceptable to get distracted by someone else in the room and then avoid them forever, whereas with kids it isn't, so you have to wing something to make them go away while seeming nice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER73> I'm curious about how to have kids in the face of failure. My truth is that I'm caught in a turbulent stream of life where I can have anything I want except success. It's a strange feeling to have time or money (but never both). To have freedom or love (but never both). And so on and so forth. If my definition of success is to have both of something, and my life is already half over, the evidence doesn't point to that ever happening.

Is it possible to be successful and have children? This is part of a larger thought experiment about spirituality, metaphysics, existentialism, etc. My feeling is that no, it's probably not. But that being human is learning to cope with the failures of everyday life and eventually life itself.

Or maybe having children is a drug that changes the spirit to realign one's truths. I know that all things of any importance that have ever happened in my life were not of my own doing. So is it just that when we give even the most minuscule effort, like skipping a stone off the river, that it changes the course of the river in some unforeseen way? I'm standing on the bank holding the stone, and am so tired that my only thought is to somehow set it down. It's no more work to throw it, but I have lost the will to do so. I guess this question is to God as much as the internet.

<comment><USER74> You also get to define what success means to you. For a lot of people, success means having a happy home and good friends.

Attaching success to finances is where things start to skew because no matter how much you have, you can always have more. It's something that people take for granted in a country where we are all in the top 1% of the world...by birth.

Remember, money isn't the root of all evil. The love of money is.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> May be great for you, and maybe even most people. But to me kids would take away every single thing I enjoy in my life. Everything. I have a hard time seeing them making my life better since it's be a case of tearing down every single life joy, every single part of my life, and build up a new one. A new one filled with nothing I currently value, except connection to people (which I already have).

The first paragraph of this essay doesn't convince me that this person's story applies to me, either. "I'd have been sad to think I'd never have children", he says. Nope.

</comment><comment><USER76> Uhh. Just going to chime in here. It is absolutely OK if you don't experience the emotions he writes about here.

You aren't broken.

I write this because I read and it immediately messaged a few friends who respect Paul as well asking them if I was broken.

Everyone experiences parenthood differently.

I never had the chemical changes in my brain and often over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. There are other things I'd rather be doing, learning, building.

That is OK.

Just because the HN generally respects Paul doesn't mean that if your experience as a parent doesn't match his something is wrong.

You are OK and chances are you are a better parent than you think.

<comment><USER77> Can you explain how being selfish (i.e. wanting to do other things instead of taking care of them) makes you a better parent?

It's not at all obvious.

<comment><USER53> To paraphrase Jordan Peterson:

"No one ever walked into my psychology practice because their parents made them too emotionally independent."

There are some parents out there who continually martyr themselves because they think it makes them a good person (I get 4 hours of sleep a night to make sure my kids have everything! I'm awesome!) but are in fact overinvolved and setting a bad example for the kid by not taking care of themselves. Anecdotally I've found most of my married friends who are/were hesitant about kids were raised by such parents.

It's healthy for the kid to see that the parent needs some enforced level of time to themselves, short of neglect of course. The precise balance is up to the individual.

<comment><USER78> American parenting is a cancer. I was raised in Europe and had a kid in California, I hate how most kids are raised here and I hate the expectations put on parents. Most people think you gotta stop having fun, you can't go out because kids and you have to constantly hover them. I took my son out when he was 5 days old and I brought him everywhere since. He knows he needs to be quiet when we go in public and we will not be listening to him if he tries to interrupt our conversations without asking politely. He's completely fine and well adjusted and the teachers love him.

If you want to raise your kids well, stop treating them like they are a rare Chinese vase and they'll be just fine.

<comment><USER79> > American parenting is a cancer...you can't go out because kids and you have > to constantly hover them

Helicopter parenting is a problem, for sure, but that isn't any more american than obesity is.

It's parenting based on fear, a reality of being in the information age and less fortunately the age of social media.

<comment><USER80> Well... obesity is pretty American.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> The decision to have kids is a lot like the decision to continue living. There is no logical basis for it. Or rather, any latticework of logic you erect to justify this choice is based on a foundation that has nothing to do with reason. It is an emotional and spiritual desire to live and love, and give more life and more love to the world.

That's why I when see people engage in complex rational calculations about the utility a child may or may not bring into their life, I feel like they are missing the point. Of course people ought to be thoughtful about the decision to have children. And there are very good reasons to abstain. But in a sense they are not grasping that having children is a profound act of hope.

<comment><USER82> Agree. In many ways I wonder if we're seeing a couple compounding forces at play:

* The introduction of birth control and giving people (yes both men and women) too much control over procreation without having to control the impulse for procreation.

* Seeing people solely as material beings as a consequence of the Enlightenment. After all, if you're just the matter you're composed off then you're no more special than a rock or your iPhone or a dog. Why sacrifice so much material comfort in exchange for the material discomfort that parenting will inevitably cause if the baby is just matter?

<comment><USER83> Yes, and you're getting downvoted, but the whole framework of individualism and enlightenment principles prioritizing individual autonomy above all else often locks people's views in such a way they cannot conceive of having children as a fundamental responsibility/obligation to continue legacy of their ancestors.

There is this enlightenment western philosophy that everyone is an atomized, isolated blank slate acting only in their own self interest, severed from any ties to the past... it goes against long standing views of having inherited legacy, and responsibility to continue this legacy which applied much social pressure to having children, even many children like in more traditional/religious cultures, and this has been abandoned in a very short period of time (seen in declining birth rates, marriage rates, increasing age of having children etc.)

<comment><USER84> There is no responsibility or obligation to one's ancestors to have children. This is a construct you are creating to justify your choice, or rather "lack of choice". You're playing the logic games you're saying others play to justify not having children.

<comment><USER83> >There is no responsibility or obligation to one's ancestors to have children

I think it's probably a philosophical, maybe even a spiritual argument. Enlightenment individualism has ingrained in western cultures the idea they have no connection or ties to the past, or their ancestors, and shouldn't even conceive of themselves in terms of these other people. Blank slate, complete autonomy, etc. I think it's just a fundamental philosophical disagreement to start from a different premise that isn't self interest per se.

"Lack of choice", I like that. It removes the consideration to construct arguments about self-interested "choice".

I'll make a logical one though:

Every single person's existence is the sum total of all previous generations of ancestors action of making the choice that led to you. Not just one or a few of your ancestor's, but _all_ of them are owed this choice. Maybe even this choice is owed to the universe (~God) itself?

The evolutionary "winners" will be the ones that consistently take this action. You can simply say, are you evolutionarily a winner, or a loser? Will you continue the propagation of your genes, or won't you? This is the "forest for the trees" way to frame it, I believe, as it steps back to avoid endless lower-level convenience rationales for opting out ( _if the choice is available to you of course_ ).

<comment><USER16> Evolutionary arguments in this day and age are moot points. We are already a genetically modified species (through IVFs and more recently , crispr) and won't be long before we can grow babies extracorporeally. And it's pretty certain , when designer babies become the norm, the trend is not to select traits that resemble some mythical ancestors, but the traits that are likely to maximize their happiness in the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> I could say a lot about having kids, but I'll keep it to this:

The fundamentally most powerful thing I feel about having kids is faith. I have faith now. An unwavering, unquestionable understanding of my purpose and direction on this planet. It makes so many questions so easy to answer.

<comment><USER86> So it _is_ a cult!

... just kidding. I think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> Paradoxically, I think the hard part about having kid is having too _few_ of them. My wife and I have 7 kids. People stare at us like we're crazy all the time. But it's _way_ easier to have 7 kids than 2.

Older kids help with the younger kids. When the 2 or 3 playing together get bored, they mix it up. They have daily big games that would ordinarily take a lot of effort arranging playdates. Many hands make light work, so household chores go by quickly. It's great.

My advice for those struggling with kids: don't stop at 1 or 2. It's hard to have 1 or 2 kids.

<comment><USER88> This sometimes badly backfires on people. You're essentially betting that your first kids will be willing to do this, and will be responsible enough to do a decent job of it.

When kids get older it seems fairly common to start fighting over having to look after siblings, as it's a barrier to having friends and studying.

<comment><USER87> I don't disagree that this is a possibility. I'm sure it happens. In our house, we have a zero-tolerance policy for fighting or rudeness, and we strongly encourage polite problem solving, even with the toddlers. It works well.

As for academics, we homeschool and vastly outpace the public school curriculum. For example, my 8 and 10 year olds are using a college Latin textbook. My oldest knows Clojure. It can be done, and, as I said previously, it's easier with more kids. I've been a father of 1, 2, 3, etc. and there's no comparison in the joy and ease that come with a large family.

<comment><USER89> Talk to me after your oldest have been out of the house for a decade.

What works for you will not work for others.

There are plenty of stories out there on /r/raisedbynarcissists from people whose parents expected them to contribute to helping raise their siblings, and they were deeply resentful that they couldn't live the life they wanted.

You made the choice to have 7 kids. Your older kids didn't get a choice when it comes to having to help you with your parental responsibilities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> Well, my ex-wife took up drugs and I became a single dad from the time my son was aged 2–after spending $80k I absolutely didn't have on custody litigation. That's in addition to a large six-figure mountain of back-tax debt and all the struggles of self-employment I've written about.

So, I suppose I can't relate to PG's essay. Of all the many possible eventualities I considered when having kids, this one didn't enter into my imagination, and is not what I signed up for--especially in view of the foregoing hardships, even if they're ultimately self-imposed. Brilliant life choices and that.

Of course I love my son, and it's difficult to speak in terms of regret now that he's here. But I regret having him with someone a reasonable person (not me at the time) could have anticipated would not be a viable mother, and denying him (and myself) that. At the same time, it has inexorably altered my life and made it quite challenging.

To the extent the status quo is tenable at all, it relies on a large and expensive army of help and caregivers. Without them I don't think I'd have a livelihood at all; we just don't have 40 hour weeks in my industry that bend to a working single parent schedule, whether freelance or W-2. My son goes to daycare full-time but that doesn't free up even remotely enough time and energy to sustain and grow my business, so a lot of other crutches are needed. Childcare is far and away my number one expense, greatly eclipsing housing. Even so, it's all a struggle.

</comment><comment><USER44> It's very socially unacceptable to admit you regret having kids. But the internet has enabled that viewpoint to surface through anonymity. I see having kids as a huge gamble. If you realize it's really not for you, there's no way to go back. I also question the morality of bringing an intelligent, sentient being into this very troubled world without their consent.

<comment><USER91> > I also question the morality of bringing an intelligent, sentient being into > this very troubled world without their consent.

A million times this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> A bit of this feels like rose coloured glasses. I don't regret having kids, and I love them to death, and even at 2 and 4, they really are interesting to talk to and interact with! However, they're also at times the worst housemates and worst companions there are. As Graham says, kids take a tremendous amount of time and attention, which can be very frustrating. Kids are possibly the greatest inconvenience one can imagine, maybe even more so.

I think it was a ted talk I watched long ago whose basic premise was that with kids the highs are really high and the lows are really low. It goes on to say that a major component of the lows is that we feel like we shouldn't feel like this because it's not socially acceptable to talk about the negative aides of children. However, if we talked about how frustrating children are, we could help make those lows a bit less low.

Like I said, I don't regret mine, but it definitely not all flowers. I'm not really refuting anything in the essay, as he highlights many of the good parts of parenthood, I do think it's important that we don't look at child rearing with rose coloured glasses. I mean, it _is_ super awesome, but it also _sucks_ too.

<comment><USER93> > I mean, it _is_ super awesome, but it also _sucks_ too.

Totally.

In my experience the inconvenience has changed pretty dramatically (for the better) as they've gotten older. Maybe it's just that I don't mind the new inconveniences as much as the old ones, but I do _not_ miss the diaper/toilet training/can't talk/can't get into the car themselves phase.

</comment></comment><comment><USER94> Probably one of the more honest and rational takes on this subject that I've seen.

Asking people why they want/wanted kids usually (but not always) results in a loop of they have kids because they wanted kids. Or they want kids because they want kids.

Not that's it not a sufficient answer, just that it's different from some "artificial" wants which can be justified more easily.

My favorite other simple answers were just "I grew up with four siblings and three dogs and I like there to be lots of movement at home" and "I'm not plotting for world domination only to let it go to waste after I die"

<comment><USER78> Or more simply, it's because having kids is, on average, the meaning of life. We exist to preserve the specie, everything else is a hobby.

<comment><USER95> Then having one or two should be seen as a huge failure, when you could have dozens.

<comment><USER96> See traditional Mormons and Catholics.

<comment><USER95> Antinatalist sects have existed within Christianism, but unsurprisingly they tend to fade out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> If the premise is "parenting is great and you should do it", it should include the caveat "if you're a tech millionaire".

I can't help but wonder how far removed pg's experience of parenting is from those without his resources, which is most people. The lows of parenting probably hit a lot less hard when you don't have to worry about money or work multiple jobs.

</comment><comment><USER98> To anyone reading to see if they should have kids, here's my take on it. It's not the magical euphoric experience described here, some people get that but I've always been more of a down to earth person.

It's more or less like getting a dog ( I take really good care of my dogs ). You take it out, stick to a routine, take care of it, love it and enjoy its company and bond that comes with having one.

If this is you then you'll be just fine having kids. If you dump it in the backyard and occasionally have time for it then it's not going to be great.

</comment><comment><USER99> I regret reading this essay because now the discouragement is back. I have wanted children; my wife has not. I am determined not to force the issue as she would be the one undertaking most of the burden, and why should I cause her to resent me? So I made peace with it, but every time something like this comes up I am torn again.

<comment><USER100> You might want to balance PG's essay with some other viewpoints as well:

Decades of data suggest parenthood makes people unhappy [https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/should-you-have- kids](https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/should-you-have-kids)

Google confessional: Your search engine knows if you regret having kids [https://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/google-confessional-your- se...](https://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/google-confessional-your-search- engine-knows-if-you-regret-having-kids/)

Many Parents Are Happier Than Non-Parents — But Not in the U.S. [https://time.com/collection/guide-to- happiness/4370344/paren...](https://time.com/collection/guide-to- happiness/4370344/parents-happiness-children-study/)

Having kids makes you happier, but only when they move out [https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids- mak...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-makes-you- happier-but-only-when-they-move-out/)

The depressing reason why having kids doesn't actually make you happier [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-theory-on-why- having-k...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-theory-on-why-having-kids- makes-people-unhappy-2019-02-26)

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> " when our first child was born. It was like someone flipped a switch. I suddenly felt protective not just toward our child, but toward all children"

This happened to me two months back when I had my first child. Yes having a child has made me less productive with my work but I feel I'm happier now. Everyday I look forward to get home from work

<comment><USER102> > Everyday I look forward to get home from work

I have met people like that who do not even have children!

</comment></comment><comment><USER103> Welcome to the world of being a parent. It can be frustrating, perplexing and mind-bending. Few things compare to those little arms snug around your neck, the head leaning on your shoulder, all in complete trust that you love them and wish them the best.

</comment><comment><USER104> Kids are great and fun. My business did better after I got married and then even better once the first kid came around. In some ways it appears that working less and being grounded and less stressed helped a lot.

Kids are just a lot of fun.

I do not live in NYC or silicon valley. Those places are expensive and kid unfriendly to all but millionaires.

</comment><comment><USER105> I've always been anti-children, I honestly dislike them. Even when I was one myself. They're loud and unpredictable. And if I were to have one it would be expensive and time consuming.

My current GF (I'm in my late 30s, she early 30s) wants children. She changed from "I don't care if I don't" to "I definitely need at least one.

So that's an impossible thing to compromise on.

And I won't. So I'll leave her to figure it out for herself. I'd much rather be alone than in a relationship if it means getting an innocent child involved with a father that doesn't want it.

"But you'll change your mind once you have one!" is a saying I often hear. Yeah, Stockholm Syndrome is what it's called. You have no choice but to say you like it. Fake it 'til you make it.

I've had colleagues and friends admit to me that they regret having children. They would have preferred to save tens of thousands of euros more, travel the world, treat themselves to gadgets and expensive meals, have all the time in the world to do whatever they liked. All the time to read books, play games, go on dates, meet people, or just work, or just do nothing at all.

With children, you're suddenly a parent. Your house is child-safe, your car is child-safe, the people you deal with most are also parents.

Or, how a friend of mine said: "I got a 20-something babysitter, cutest girl I've ever seen. I'm 41. I'd do her. My wife wouldn't approve, of course. But the girl tells me she isn't going to get children, because she sees how little time parents have. And god damnit, she's so right."

If he got to turn back time he would not have his 3 children. And that's not all: he would not stay with his wife, a marriage of 20 years. They coexist "for the children" as they so often do. But in truth it's because he isn't looking forward to paying her alimony and child support.

Right now, he's miserable with 1 child-safe car and 1 car he likes in a house that's too big.

And look at the divorce rates out there. Even if you look at only the first- time divorcees, it seems most marriages fail. I am not looking forward to anchoring myself down by adding a child into the mix.

I'll be single. And if I do turn out to be miserable, I'll just off myself without leaving a dependent family behind.

<comment><USER106> Good for you, but no need to be defensive or resigned to getting single: there's an entire society of joyous, happy, well-balanced, office contributors to society, who don't have kids. You don't need to justify it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> Despite not being a parent I am closely observing many of my friends tread this path. To all I can only say:

You are more important than your children - for their sakes!

<comment><USER108> I would slightly rephrase to say you cannot truly take good care of your children unless you take good care of yourself.

It's similar to the phrase "you can't truly love somebody until you love yourself"

</comment></comment><comment><USER109> My experiences matches very well Paul's. Especially this one "I remember perfectly well what life was like before. Well enough to miss some things a lot, like the ability to take off for some other country at a moment's notice. That was so great. Why did I never do that?

See what I did there? The fact is, most of the freedom I had before kids, I never used."

For me, it was the case with my ambitions. I sometimes, not so often, catch myself thinking "damn, if I just had more time (implicitly thinking - <USER3> time spent on taking care of my kids), I could achieve this and this". But that's pure bullshit. I had plenty of time before kids, and I didn't use it. Period.

I actually think, I'm doing more things now, that I have kids. Precisely because I have so many responsibilities, I do care a lot about my free time and how I spend it. It turns out, we all have plenty of time. We just waste most of it.

Having kids, I feel like it's my obligation to show them how to best live their life. And since kids, very often, just try to copy what you do, there is no better way to show them than just living the best life you can. Win-win.

Besides, as Paul says, kids are pure joy and they are extremely interesting (especially if you are interested in machine learning :D ).

</comment><comment><USER110> Thanks for this pg. Scheduled to have two new arrivals in about a months time. Positively shitting it as they are our first arrivals.

I don't think anything will prepare me for what lies ahead, feeling apprehensive, worried but looking forward to it none the less.

I've no idea how I'll manage time for our team in between diaper changes but I'm sure it'll all just work out for the best. Thinking positively.

<comment><USER111> It's not always delicate and perfect but you'll do fine. Consider how many other humans have done this successfully before you. Just do what you can without driving yourself and your co-parent(s) crazy and accept that your best might gracefully be a bit different than it used to be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER112> It's good that he thinks about "getting enough done" now. That should be everyone's focus in the first place -- if you're focusing on only doing what's necessary, the quality of your choices is bound to improve (Warren Buffet's punch card analogy comes to mind). It's depressing to me that with productivity culture we've left this so far behind.

</comment><comment><USER113> Since having my children, my capacity for patience and empathy have increased significantly. Surprisingly, these newfound attributes aren't solely directed towards them, but to the general population as a whole. This is perhaps the most remarkable thing I've experienced outside the pure emotional impact one would expect.

<comment><USER27> That's interesting; I wonder if you're fairly unique, or if what I've read was flawed: I've read that new parents direct most of their empathy toward their children and have scant little left for anyone else.

<comment><USER113> Patience and empathy are practices, and raising kids provides a whole lot of opportunity for exercising them. As a result of becoming better at these practices (or at least more mindful about them), people around me have benefited.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER114> > Partly, and I won't deny it, this is because of serious chemical changes > that happened almost instantly when our first child was born. It was like > someone flipped a switch.

I have a step-daughter. It's amazing how protective I am over here. I'm not violent or confrontational by any means.

One time this drunk guy didn't like that she was on her phone (she wasn't doing anything wrong).

This guy was basically yelling at her... my adrenaline spiked and I was immediately in this guys face protecting her.

I mean you'd think this was the natural thing to do right? Of course it is... but what's interesting is that I don't have any recollection of actually making a conscious decision to take this action.

It was almost done and over with before I realized what happened.

The guy was actually arrested for public intoxication and taken away. He had been drinking in the movie theater and came out drunk.

<comment><USER115> I don't understand. Was the guy angry because the kid was using a loud/bright (?) phone during a movie? Was he angry just because he was drunk? Like some people get booze-happy, and some booze-sad?

</comment></comment><comment><USER116> Question to people with kids: if you could do it again, would you do it at a different time of your life?

Personally I'd like to wait until I'm in my mid 30s for some of the reasons Paul mentions: you have less time outside of work to do other things once you have kids. Seems like being a founder or even just trying to advance aggressively in a standard career is a lot harder if you have dependents.

There's also two key trade offs I see too: money vs. energy. The more financially well off you are when you have children, the easier things will be (affording the house in the right neighborhood, daycare, etc.). So in that respect it's probably better to delay having children. But if you delay too long, you might not have enough energy to do things your children want to do, and have a higher risk of health problems cropping up which take time away from kids

<comment><USER117> If I had started younger, I would've tried for 4 kids instead of 2. I was 33 and 36 at my childrens' births. I would definitely do it younger if I had it to do over because now I want as much time with them as possible and would like time with grandkids. That said, we are fairly comfortable financially, and if that would necessarily not have been the case if I'd started younger, then it's really hard to say whether I would chose that in retrospect.

That said, I'm not sure having kids has to be so bad for your career. Nothing focuses a person more than needed to keep work time-boxed in order to leave time for family. Perhaps the totally self-motivated types would suffer, but for me and other parents I've known, it can sort of add a level of maturity and focus that can actually help a career.

</comment></comment><comment><USER118> I just have to chime in.

My daughter is almost three years.

I am a small business owner (half a million in revenue).

My girlfriend (we're together since our teens and both in our 30ties) and I decided she'll stay home until our daughter is ready for school (when she is 4 years).

The pregnancy was complicated and birth became an emergency c-section.

The moment our daughter was delivered I felt nothing less than absolute all encompassing love. I am sure we had it relatively easy once the pregnancy was over as our baby was a happy bundle of joy that slept well and didn't cry a lot.

It brought me so much focus in my life, all that is not important I can't any longer tolerate, this goes professionally as well, it has become a proxy for doing the important things right and a source of love, joy and wonder.

For me becoming a parent has been magical from the get go.

</comment><comment><USER119> For me it's not about some vague sense of "wanting to keep being 'fun'". I know that doesn't last forever. It's the fact that right now, I know there are things that are more important to me in life. And I think it's wrong to have kids if you can't make them the most important thing in your life, while they grow up at least.

I suspect that may change one day: once I've done certain things and had certain experiences and found certain elements of my personal happiness, maybe I'll have room for a priority shift. But I'm comfortable with my knowledge of my own needs. I think premature sacrifice and the inner conflict that follows is what makes for a bad parent.

</comment><comment> cadence- I can never understand why there is so much discussion in western societies about whether to have kids or not.

It's very simple:

1\. If you want to have kids, then you SHOULD have kids.

2\. If you don't want to have kids, then you SHOULD NOT have kids.

3\. If you are unsure whether you want to have kids, then you SHOULD NOT have kids.

</comment><comment><USER120> Two things stood out to me when my first kid was born.

First, my life didn't fundamentally change overnight. My life's a lot different now, a couple years and a couple kids in, but it was a gradual change. Lots of slow roll through phases, with some dramatic small-scale shifts. Granted, I'm super lucky to have healthy kids and almost daily help from my in-laws. I can see how the change is significantly more dramatic for most.

The second is that it's a lot I like the experience of traveling in an unfamiliar country. If you like constant novelty, tiny surprises, and having to adapt to your own ignorance, it's a blast.

</comment><comment><USER121> As others have pointed out, ones experience of having children depends on many factors, particularly personal economics (which after all, translates from Greek as "household management").

If you can afford the expenses associated with having children, and are not completely put off by the idea, there's a good argument to be made that there is no more fulfilling a way to spend your money.

Given this, it would be interesting to hear how pg's take on having children intersects with his other public thoughts on things like UBI, universal healthcare, education, etc.

</comment><comment><USER122> As someone who doesn't have and doesn't plan to have kids, I have a lot of respect for parents. They have made decisions and trade-offs and now have responsibilities that I will never have.

The one thing I will say is that the modern world is so, so built around the notion that the normal and right thing to do is to eventually have kids. As a gay person it's easier for me to take the path other LGBTQ+ folks most often take of not having children, but I still see and feel the societal pressures. Do what's right for you, not what you think you are supposed to do.

</comment><comment><USER123> Oh god, let's get at least a little bit sciency about having kids. There are no serious chemical changes in men, only in women to a) deal with and forget the pain of child birth and b) form a bond with the child. Men are dreadful of having kids because they fear of having to support them, they are sort of tricked by women and pressured by peers, society, government to do it. Some men can find enjoyment and fulfillment in raising children of course, but it's much harder if they have to worry about providing for them.

<comment><USER124> That's simply false. Testosterone levels drop in men who even cohabitate with young children.

I have no idea what other changes might occur but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

<comment><USER123> _> Testosterone levels drop in men who even cohabitate with young children._

I call bullshit. There is at best a correlation of cohabitating with young children and periods of sexual inactivity, but probably correlation of periods of sexual inactivity and participating in the study you pulled that data from, i.e. it's a bullshit study.

Wikipedia has good enough explanation about when testosterone levels change in men: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone#Males](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone#Males)

<comment><USER124> Interesting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER125> I have a 9, 6, 3.5 and one on the way. My schedule for the most part has been 8-10 hrs on the day job, coming home for dinner and night rituals about 2-3 hours. On most week days I go upstairs when the kids have gone to bed and work another 1-3 hours on a range of things: Sometimes its finishing off stuff at work, most times it's own projects and learning. Thankfully wife uses this time sometimes to catch up on sewing projects, school grading so we're able to sit together. It's not ideal as we actually want to spend the time together but we do our best to just leave work alone and be with each other sometimes. We also try to prioritize when something needs to be done talked about/discussed. Another thing is we agreed I can use most week nights to work on my side project I am trying to bootstrap. We agreed it's a sacrifice we're willing to make for the time being. I think you have to be willing to experiment try and see what works for your relationship and family. I admit I'm not the best for getting 6-8 hours a night of sleep but average about 6hrs. I always remind myself to enjoy my family because I can now. Life is such that we can never tell what's coming around the corner. I don't want to regret anything looking back so I do my best to tell my wife and kids how much I love them. Kiss my kids often and try to pursue the dream in my heart about the side project. It's a lot and seems like a tall order but in the grand scheme of things it's a number of key decisions and choices each day.

</comment><comment><USER126> > Some of my worries about having kids were right, though. They definitely > make you less productive. I know having kids makes some people get their act > together, but if your act was already together, you're going to have less > time to do it in. In particular, you're going to have to work to a schedule. > Kids have schedules. I'm not sure if it's because that's how kids are, or > because it's the only way to integrate their lives with adults', but once > you have kids, you tend to have to work on their schedule.

> You will have chunks of time to work. But you can't let work spill > promiscuously through your whole life, like I used to before I had kids. > You're going to have to work at the same time every day, whether inspiration > is flowing or not, and there are going to be times when you have to stop, > even if it is.

> I hate to say this, because being ambitious has always been a part of my > identity, but having kids may make one less ambitious. It hurts to see that > sentence written down. I squirm to avoid it. But if there weren't something > real there, why would I squirm? The fact is, once you have kids, you're > probably going to care more about them than you do about yourself. And > attention is a zero-sum game. Only one idea at a time can be the top idea in > your mind. Once you have kids, it will often be your kids, and that means it > will less often be some project you're working on.

<comment><USER127> This is likely not a problem pg has, but becoming a parent can provide an ambition to provide for them and have enough success to be able to spend time with them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER128> My wife and I's families did the best for us growing up but a lack of money, alcoholism and our parents having a rough time growing up meant growing up for us maybe wasn't what it could have been.

My wife and I now have the most wonderful family and my two kids are young adults. My family is the best thing in my life. I still don't find it easy to express myself as some others do verbally, or be huggy, but I would do anything for my kids and I know the reverse is true.

I went through a phase about 10 years ago when I started to worry about death. Fear would come over me like a cloud and I started to worry that the cloud would stay. It took a while before I told my wife and I will never forget her response. She said, "you should be glad you are starting to feel normal things for the first time in your life".

This was so true. I had never been loved so unconditionally before by my wife and these two little kids. Their love fixed something in me which was broken. Ironically I can now say I have no fear of departing this world. The peace that Paul talked about is very real to me. There is a completeness in being part of a loving family which makes you grateful for what has past rather than worrying about the future.

When my son was a toddler we would go for walks and he was happy to play with a stick. This boxing day the kids and I will go to see the new Star Wars movie. A different type of stick but the joy continues.

</comment><comment><USER129> Do we have the right to have kids? It goes against every principle of "informed consent" \- bringing a life into the universe is a grand and momentous thing, far more life-changing than any other action that would normally require consent.

Anyone who is born will die - eventually they will suffer, and they will lose everything. And they may not even live a joyful life in the interval beforehand.

We require consent for far less severe things in modern society.

If a being cannot give consent to exist, then it is not our decision to make.

<comment><USER130> Mostly this just indicates that your model of what 'rights' are is flawed, since it doesn't give the right answer for obviously true statements.

<comment><USER129> Elaborate on how having kids is moral is "obviously true."

<comment><USER130> No, what's obviously true is that it is incorrect to say you do not have a _right_ to have kids. There are, perhaps, other moral issues, but 'having rights' is clearly not one of them.

<comment><USER129> You can't really say that without substantiating your claim. It follows that you have just about as much of a right to have kids as you do to kill people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER131> Why people with kids is shocked about the energy and times it takes, shocks me.

Kids are not something everyone should get. I would go so far to say, most people shouldn't get kids, and yet most get them for a personal reason, as it is something which life itself is intended for.

Don't get kids just because you can. Get them only if you really want to show them the love and the size of the world.

And we don't need anymore people in the world, so before you go ego and get kids, take care of someone elses heritage. Please

</comment><comment><USER132> Almost everything he says rings true with me after we got a dog. Especially the moments where I feel present and the joy from doing mundane tasks. Get a dog if you are childless!

</comment><comment><USER133> TBH I think it's just the chemical change. Basically you are happy in one way or another, and once you made decision most people tend to regret a bit/lot afterwards.

</comment><comment><USER134> It does change your life in a lot of ways, and is one of the 'big divisions' in one's lifetime (before/after things like marriage, college, kids, Etc.)

What I like about this essay was Paul's ability to understand that he really didn't understand, _on a fundamental level_ , the point of view of parents before he was one. I think every engineer I have known both before and after they had kids had this same shift of perception.

An interesting variant was one of my friends who married a woman who already had kids and grew into the perception over time rather than "all at once" as so many who were present at the birth of their first child do.

In discussions here and on other forums it is easy to spot the difference in responses from those who are parents and those who are not. It really is a different way of thinking.

My wife stated the obvious to me when I was going on about how amazing this change was. Her comment was "Well maybe if your boobs doubled in size in the 9 months before the birth you would have figured out that things were getting ready for this new state of affairs." Changes in your view on the world are less visible but quite profound.

</comment><comment><USER135> "Partly, and I won't deny it, this is because of serious chemical changes that happened almost instantly when our first child was born. It was like someone flipped a switch. I suddenly felt protective not just toward our child, but toward all children."

This, almost exactly, happened to me. I wasn't interested in babies, and then suddenly my newborn baby in particular and babies in general were amazing and precious.

</comment><comment><USER136> A bit of survivorship bias going on with what Paul has written. He gives the example of having kids when I believe he was already financially secure and in a different place in his life than many people are when they have kids. That is not to say that the children are not wonderful (big YMMV there) but that he could (most likely) afford to sit back and 'smell the roses' with his kids. And enjoy the experience and be 'mr relaxed and happy parent' let's say.

Compare that to perhaps how it was for him (or for me) growing up. Parents under a great deal of financial pressure. (In my case immigrant parents one who came here with nothing one who grew up here with nothing). Work long hours (for both themselves and the kids) and when they get home from work not a bed of roses. Not having the luxury of having a Harvard degree either (as Paul has) (I have a good degree but the reason is my parents busted their asses so that I could get into a good school).

No such thing by the way as a blanket 'kids are a blessing' don't let anyone paint it that way. Sorry to rain on the parade. Plenty of people's lives don't revolve around the joy of children (whether they have children or not (I do)) and that's ok. I have kids but don't particularly enjoy doing any 'kids' things just not my thing. Nothing wrong with that. Once again it just seems like a box that some people want to put you in based on their own happiness and experience in life (or at least that is the way it seems).

You know you read it all the time. 'The best day of my life was when my child was born'. 'I want to spend more time with my family'. 'So you can spend more time with your family'. 'I love coaching my kids sports teams'. Picture of fun on Facebook. And so on.

</comment><comment><USER137> > The fact is, most of the freedom I had before kids, I never used.

This is so true!

Now with kids, there is tiny bit of freedom, but this freedom (free time) is spent 10x better.

</comment><comment><USER138> Kids also help ease existential dread. Life is big and heavy, even without kids. And I think these days, lots of people try and find purpose through their work (forgoing or delaying kids), but I'm not sure that's the most direct path. Kids answer the big question of "why am I here" in a way that nothing else can. I often wonder if we're programmed for it to be so.

</comment><comment><USER139> My girlfriend and I are raising my sister after my parents passed away. It's a whole different set of experience, because she started living with us when she was 15. That was 2 years ago. (I'm 33, my girlfriend is 39)

And you realize that it's difficult to deal with someone who grew up differently. I left our parents house when my sister was 5. My girlfriend grew up completely different. And then you have a teenager, who, besides the fact that having a teenager is a whole different story, also doesn't share your mindset at all, because you didn't raise her.

Our time is running up. My gf is turning 40 next year, and we don't have kids on our own. After these years (I think my sister will move out in the next 24 months, as she turns 18 next year), we are not sure if we want to have kids at all.

It's difficult.

</comment><comment><USER140> Alright so I'm using a throwaway account for this as it's kind of personal but I really want to hear the HN community on this one.

I'm 40, I've suffered anxiety distorders and depression and I just never dated. I'd love to, but I just got stuck in this rut where I was kind of happy with my own company and just scared of change in my life in general. 30-40 is in some ways for me a lost decade. I spent lots of time working on my mental illness, had some fun experiences for sure, but just settled into this groove.

Now I'm reading stuff like this and, you know, I feel like I do want kids and I'd be really sad if I never ended up having them. Is it too late? Does anyone who was in my situation have some stories to share?

Really looking for some kind of encouragement I guess.

<comment><USER19> Not too late, though if you're a woman, it gets harder to have a natural pregnancy the longer you wait. But we have some technology for that! My dad was nearly 40 when they had me, I know there are many new dads that are older than that.

<comment><USER140> Thank you. I am male. Still lots of work to do, but there's no way I'm going to live this life without even trying.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER141> _> To some extent I'm like a religious cultist telling you that you'll be happy if you join the cult too — but only because joining the cult will alter your mind in a way that will make you happy to be a cult member._

There are strong parallels here to my feelings about Burning Man.

</comment><comment><USER142> This is a good write, I am a new father, 4 months old. Already in the process of adjusting my schedule to his. But it's satisfying to stay with him than sticking with my laptop all the time. Given the fact we are all wired to be a good parent, it's no surprising i guess.

</comment><comment><USER143> I grew up watching heartwarming TV shows and movies about families sharing wonderful adventures together. If you expect this, you will likely be disappointed. Those moments can be super rare.

Some kids are introverted, or mildly autistic, and are super-reluctant to communicate. You can tell it's painful for them, regardless of how good of parent you try to be, or how many parenting books you read. They may shut you out.

Meanwhile, other parents will brag about how miraculous their amazing children are, implying it's the norm. And to them it is, so what can you say?

Other non-parents will say things like, "oh, why don't you make them do ____", as if it's that simple. Turns out kids are their own persons, who rarely happily just do what you ask.

</comment><comment><USER144> > Partly, and I won't deny it, this is because of serious chemical changes > that happened almost instantly when our first child was born. It was like > someone flipped a switch. I suddenly felt protective not just toward our > child, but toward all children. As I was driving my wife and new son home > from the hospital, I approached a crosswalk full of pedestrians, and I found > myself thinking "I have to be really careful of all these people. Every one > of them is someone's child!"

This just flipped a switch in my (kidless) brain. What a strange feeling to realize every person on earth is someone's kid. Someone's grand kid. I'm now puzzled at how we humans can even conceive of being less than stellar to each other

</comment><comment><USER145> By the way - the best part of being a parent is getting to be the best teacher you never had. I love it. I taught my daughter to read at three(it was a lot of work every day and it took patience, perseverance, and commitment - <USER4> easy for either of us) , we have been coding together for a year or so with Scratch, we talk about philosophy and life, and I work really hard to understand what she's excited about and then to channel it into things I think will help her have a better life. I'm helping her to reach her best potential (I hope) and in the process she is helping me to reach my own. I know I'm lucky, I have a great child but my goal is to also make her lucky by having a great parent.

</comment><comment><USER146> Topics like this really make me feel the pressure. I'm getting older and I want to have kids but I'm not in a good enough financial situation to do so. It's hard to bring a person into the world when you are not sure about being able to support them.

</comment><comment><USER147> My wife is going to give birth in a few days. Yet I experience everything PG writes before he has children. I dread it. I'm afraid that it would hurt my project. I don't like my experence with children. It is the best time for me to read this essay.

</comment><comment><USER148> Ironically, I once ran into Paul Graham and his family on a Virgin Atlantic flight to London. They were flying first class. I imagine this unconsciously factors into his views, much like the Marissa Mayer "being a mother and a CEO is really easy" comments.

</comment><comment><USER111> Most people's ambitions were created for them and all ambitions live in the context of our lived experiences.

Imagine that one adjusts as one's life is adjusting around them. Surprise?

You discover if you had really seen the possibility space of life and weighed it's options.

</comment><comment><USER149> I agree with a lot of points that PG makes here. There is also a key component that he didn't really mention, a precondition of having kids, which is finding the right partner to raise them with.

While it is difficult to know how someone will bear up under the stress of raising young children, nevertheless, your partner's ability to shoulder the load with you in those first years will be crucial to your sanity and happiness.

So in a sense, for someone who thinks they want to have kids, the first question to answer is: what are the characteristics of the kind of partner who will work well with you to raise a child? How do you identify them and convince them to embark on that endeavor with you?

</comment><comment><USER150> After giving a lot of thoughts I made a decided I will never have my own children. Which is probably very unfortunate for my family line as I'm the only child. I looked at the world we share and decided that it would be best thing I can do. What right do I have to bring another life to this world? I didn't ask to exist, my parents made decision I wasn't part of, I can't do the same to someone else. I don't see us having a higher purpose to exists... No one exist for a reason, we all die alone, best thing I can do is to take this world for a ride, and don't make a mistake my parents did.

Don't get me wrong! I'm happy for OP and everyone who has kids. It's just me and my personal POV

<comment><USER151> You could easily make the opposite argument: what right do you have to not bring another life into this world? After all, the vast majority of humans alive right now would rather exist than not exist!

</comment></comment><comment><USER152> This is a nice essay. While he's right I only notice the bad parent situations probably, I've seen numerous instances of incorrigible kids had by otherwise successful parents with drug addiction and mental health issues that have almost no relationship to their parents and are in and out of institutions including prison into adulthood. The parents haven't experienced much joy or pride around their kid in a long time. If everything works out fine then it's probably lots of joy like Paul says. My family history seems to suggest to me I'd be in for a long hard road, I'm not willing to subject myself or offspring to that kind of suffering.

</comment><comment><USER153> Nowadays, I have a hard time reading, im not sure why. I used to love reading anything in the past few years, now I find it easier only to read documentation from programming frameworks.

Thank you for writing this great piece that made me need to finish the essay

</comment><comment><USER154> I honestly don't know how anyone could justify having kids giving the current climate change situation. Don't you feel responsible for any potential pain your kids might feel as a result of the world going to shit?

<comment><USER155> Yeah, this bothers me too. Why would you bring someone you love so much to this crazy, doomed, hellhole of a planet? It seems fantastically short-sighted and selfish to me to have children right now (and for the foreseeable future.)

I don't want kids in large part because I do not think I would be a good dad, and I'm not going to do that to another human being, even (especially!) if they share my DNA. But the main reason I see for foregoing children is that I would be handing them a terrible world without hope of salvation. (We _might_ pull through, and I hope we do, but I have _no basis_ for that hope other than _faith_ , and that not enough to justify incarnating a new soul.)

I can't imagine explaining to my child what the monarch butterfly migration _was like_. What elephants were. What reefs were. What the dawn chorus sounded like.

</comment></comment><comment><USER156> This unfortunately just gives the same old description of having kids from a position of extreme privilege.

When you have no job stability, or you yourself suffer severe depression, or you're just poor and have no means or support network, then having kids is insanely stressful way way way beyond the kind of yuppie parents-who-think- not-sleeping-is-stress lightweight stuff.

Kids, like houses, vacations, fancy university degrees and adequate medical care, are something only accessible to rich people (and triggers a knee-jerk reaction in such people to try to argue they aren't rich with ineffective anecdata and arbitrary thresholds).

</comment><comment><USER157> I've been a teacher for 15 years in public, private schools - and as a tutor to about 2000+ kids in 3 countries - and am now starting to think about ways to develop a new education model with a more flexible school schedule that would allow for more family time and greater parent participation in learning. I'd love to connect with parents who might be interested in this idea to discuss their hopes and dreams for their child's education (especially in San Francisco). If you're willing to chat, you can contact me at manisha[at]manisharose.com thanks!

</comment><comment><USER158> I'd lay my life down for my kids, but I can't live vicariously through them.

They are both adults now, one has a Masters in Psychology and teaches Austic kids (deciding on persusing a PhD), the other has 4.0 GPA as a 3rd year Bio major and is on the path to being an MD. I'm proud of them, sure, but accomplishments are their own. They are not mine.

My goals have changed since the first one was born and I was still wearing fireproof underwear as often as I wanted, but I chase my dreams stll and I always have... for better or worse.

Apparently, that seems to have rubbed off on the youngins.... for better or worse.

</comment><comment><USER159> People should remain childless. Remaining childless is the only guaranteed way to prevent suffering. Also have a look at: [https://www.amazon.com/Better- Never-Have-Been-Existence/dp/0...](https://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-Have- Been-Existence/dp/0199549265/) and [https://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-against- Human-Race-Contriv...](https://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-against-Human-Race- Contrivance/dp/0143133144/)

<comment><USER160> Sure, let's all do that, and then the human race will go extinct, and then (after we're all gone), _then_ there will be no more suffering. Also no more laughter, joy, love...

Why is "not suffering" the ideal? Why not "more joy"?

You have a very empty view of life if the only thing you see is suffering to be avoided.

The future belongs to those who believe there will be one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER161> When I was an intern at Apple in 2002, Steve Jobs gave a talk to our cohort. Someone asked if he had any advice and he replied "The things that are important to you now, will not be the things that are important to you later. Sorry, I know that vague but I don't know how else to say it." Now that I'm a father (and an actual adult), I think I understand what he means. Don't feel ashamed because your priorities shift and you lose "ambition". It could come back or it could be gone forever, whatever the case just try to enjoy what you have at that point.

</comment><comment><USER162> > What I didn't notice, because they tend to be much quieter, were all the > great moments parents had with kids. People don't talk about these much — > the magic is hard to put into words, and all other parents know about them > anyway — but one of the great things about having kids is that there are so > many times when you feel there is nowhere else you'd rather be, and nothing > else you'd rather be doing.

This is definitely a phenomenon to be explored, the "unshared" tacit joy that people experience in their lives (not just as parents).

</comment><comment><USER163> What I would say about productivity is that particularly for mothers, they may have less time for work, but they get more done in a given amount of time.

Simply there is so much to do, if you're not organized you will go under.

Thinking back to the before-kids era, it's clear I wasted a lot of time. A lot of the volume of work I did was due to having loads of time to burn on it, not due to being effective with time.

So I would give a bonus point to people who've raised kids. They clearly have survived a time in their lives when being organised was essential.

</comment><comment><USER164> I can identify with PG's sentiments almost entirely.

I also identify with the observation that one is more likely to appreciate kids when the basic necessities of life are covered - food, housing, healthcare.

</comment><comment><USER165> I really, really want to have kids, but I'm "on the spectrum", have huge troubles with socialising with people, and, after my parents died and my girlfriend left me soon after, struggled with severe depression, which left me hollowed and deprived of any self-esteem - which, in turn, makes socialising even more difficult. At the age of 30, I feel like my life is over. Whenever I read about the joy of having kids, I know I'd want to have my own, but I probably never will :(

</comment><comment><USER166> Two kids here. And two things after I read:

One:

The greatest hat tips to the maker's schedule (building or writing anything) while having kids is the trust and support of your partner knowing you introvertly struggle. Hobbies, software, whatever.

Without this, it would be unlikely I could still create while raising.

Two:

One phrase used by me is "the moments." I believe he used this one as well. Moments happen at all ages. With your children. But also new moments of extreme empathy such as connecting with others with children (and their struggles and moments).

</comment><comment><USER167> If you can relate to the joy in the article, I'd highly recommend watching the Clannad and Clannad After Story animes: [https://myanimelist.net/anime/2167/Clannad](https://myanimelist.net/anime/2167/Clannad) [https://myanimelist.net/anime/4181/Clannad__After_Story](https://myanimelist.net/anime/4181/Clannad__After_Story)

</comment><comment><USER168> This is how I feel about taking paychedelics.

Hard to explain to those who haven't done it. Sounds like a cult. More enjoyable moments than any conceivable moments before. Magic hard to put into words. Changes you forever. People who haven't done it simply don't get it. And it is pretty much profound deep and fundamental happiness on tap.

I don't intend to have kids but I am curious how it compares. At present I am dubious having a child can compare to the profound depth of a peak psychedelic experience.

</comment><comment><USER169> Related read: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism)

</comment><comment><USER170> A beautiful and thought provoking essay and definitely one for pg's kids to cherish later in life.

I see people in the comments trying to glean lessons from the essay or to compare pg's experience to their own. But if there's one thing I've learned from having two kids, it's that a lesson learned from one can be exactly the wrong thing for the other. Parental advice and experience is so hard to generalize.

I look forward to the follow up essay when the kids are teenagers. :)

</comment><comment><USER171> Honestly? Enjoy it while you can! You might well have to put work on the back burner for a couple of years -- kids that age are a full time job! although it gets easier once they are at school.

I say enjoy it because firstly, you never know what challenges life will bring. But soon enough, they'll be in high school and then you'll be packing them off to college and you'll have plenty of time on your hands again for work & projects.

</comment><comment><USER172> I love this article, and I've experienced parenthood quite similar to Paul (I have an 11 month old), but I disagree with his statements on ambition, maybe it's because he was so full of ambition and success prior to having children. But for me, I now feel a great drive to provide this baby with all the opportunities and experiences in the world. And I can't give him those things without great professional success.

</comment><comment><USER173> This is so beautiful and honest. Also most all of the comments.

But I'm still glad that I never flipped the switch. As I see it, I get to be a kid until I die.

</comment><comment> 8f2ab37a-ed6c Disclaimer: I do like kids, but, anybody else out there with 0 urge to have em?

I'm already somewhat behind the prime of when most people would be having some, but I don't regret it because I simply have never felt the call.

I'm sure I'd be an ok parent, I've done alright at most other parts in life, but it also seems like a thing you actually would want to want if you're to commit to it.

</comment><comment><USER174> I read a few comments here basically saying, "oh because he's rich". I respectfully disagree.

I was at the lowest point in life financially when I have my first son, but a lot of what PG said resonates with me. Particularly, I feel very emotional whenever I hear/see children being abused (people share video of violence by nannies in WhatsApp).

Then again, parenthood is different to everyone.

</comment><comment><USER175> This essay jibes with the thesis of "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids" [1]. It's a book that nudges you to have one or two more kids than you were otherwise going to have.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More- ebook/dp/B0...](https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More- ebook/dp/B004OA64Q6/)

</comment><comment><USER176> Ultimately , I guess all you have to consider about having children is how much you need/want "to love" and "be loved in return".

Once you have that answer, you can deal with the rest (emotional/financial/relationship/time stability and security [sorted alphabetically for no reason]).

Also, props to PG for writing one of the more coherent articles on having children.

</comment><comment><USER177> Thank you for that, pg!

As a father of 8 and grandfather of 11 (so far) at 65, you can't imagine the joys ahead of you, at every stage, but especially when your kids are grown and you realize they are just delightful people you love to be with!

Working from home for 30 years now (running a "lifestyle" company) has given me the freedom to do whatever, whenever generally, with the family.

</comment><comment><USER178> It's interesting to hear PG's opinion on this, but I wouldn't put too much weight on it. It's just one datapoint.

I'd pay enormous attention to what PG says about VC-backed startups, but for advice on kids you're probably better talking to marriage counsellors, teachers, childminders, or anyone else with exposure to a broad range of experiences.

</comment><comment><USER179> Has come a long way since:

"I would be reluctant to start a startup with a woman who had small children, or was likely to have them soon. But you're not allowed to ask prospective employees if they plan to have kids soon."

[http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html)

</comment><comment><USER180> That article stuck with me - [https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/books/review/all-joy- and-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/books/review/all-joy-and-no-fun- by-jennifer-senior.html)

</comment><comment><USER181> I have no kids yet, but I always thought the goal of life is obviously to have kids wether they are dna or idea ones. We re hard programmed for that like any other species. The issue now is cost in terms of time of money. I see a couple of solutions to these, will test and document :)

</comment><comment><USER182> This is an ideal situation, I have a few kids too, but I still need put priorities over them, as otherwise I can't help them in their needs. Everything Paul said is right, except you have to be quite successful so you can enjoy as much as he does, at least that is true for me.

</comment><comment><USER183> Kids are dull so dull SO DULL.

It's not their fault. It's not personal. They've never done anything, they've had no experiences, their tastes are bland and repetitive because of their physical state and their limited experience, of course they're dull and uninteresting.

It's not their fault, but it's still the case. And they're not even like dull adults whom you can choose not to interact with (and even adults are often dull in a different way - some of them are hyper focused on something so niche that in that regard, in that niche, _I 'M_ the child with no experience and no understanding). Children seem to suck up so much of people's time and energy.

There was a post some time in which someone talked about how their small child got into MineCraft. Great, thought he. We can do this together. So they did. Building the exact same building every night, no deviations, just repetition. I suppose it's a more modern version of having to read the exact same storybook every night.

<comment><USER108> Other people's kids can be dull. I can empathize with that...

But my own kid, despite statistically being just like all the kids and could be considered just as dull, is most certainly not dull to me.

<comment><USER183> Yeah, does that not seem odd? Sure seems like a very suspicious coincidence.

Whatever is doing that to you is a blessing, I suspect, because there are parents out there who do not have that. What must their lives be like?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER184> No llc-like protection available from children!

Imagine you have a Martin Shkreli-like figure for a child. Don't let the fear of that be your only guide deciding to have kids or not, but know the risk is real.

Seeing close friends bitten by this has definitely made me more risk averse...

</comment><comment><USER185> Have a kid and know it for your selves. Ignore whatever Graham is saying, that's his personal experience. Your experience will be totally different from his, if it's not, then you are a robot, just another brick in the wall.

Note: Niece and nephews are not your kids.

</comment><comment><USER186> Congratulations. You have made part of your DNA immortal by procreating.

Having kids is the only way to ensure life. It's not you. There is no 'you'. It's the genes.

Now substitute 'part of me' every time the word 'children' appear in the article or any of the comments.

</comment><comment><USER187> Sent this to my wife, we've been talking about having kids but she's still nervous about it. Maybe it's just my personal biases, but he's confirming a lot of what I've long believed about parenthood.

</comment><comment><USER188> Funny enough I just wrote about some of this myself - perhaps it's that time of year:

[https://austingwalters.com/tiny-handcuffs/](https://austingwalters.com/tiny- handcuffs/)

</comment><comment><USER189> I wonder if the same chemical switch that he talks about gets flipped if you adopt a child, or marry a single parent and thus become a step-parent. If so, I wonder how young the child has to be for that to happen.

<comment><USER190> If it's chemically-based, maybe it can be induced.

I wonder - and I'm being serious here, although this could certainly be a terrible idea for various reasons - what would happen if, say, a low dose of MDMA or similar were administered to new parents when they first began bonding with their child. Surely a spike of serotonin and oxytocin plays a role in the physiology of parental attachment? Perhaps guaranteeing such a spike could have significant long-term effects by helping to cement this bond?

<comment><USER191> yep

[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257612445_The_Sacre...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257612445_The_Sacred_Hour_Uninterrupted_Skin- to-Skin_Contact_Immediately_After_Birth)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER192> Thanks to PG for writing this. I will never have kids and I don't want them (I'm old enough to know for certain). But I appreciated this essay. It's good to know what I am giving up.

</comment><comment><USER193> I'm a dad of a 2 year old and identify exactly with everything in this. I'm so happy to see a post like this at the top of hacker news. Dads don't talk from the heart like this enough.

</comment><comment><USER194> This essay reminds of the book "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids" (2012) by economist Bryan Caplan, which I suggest to people thinking about how many children to have.

</comment><comment><USER106> Ah, the parenting cult rant.

I was going to write a long response with dozens of examples highlighting the richness of child-free lives, but decided it would be the ultimate brag, since there's a million things parents can't do, don't have time to do and simply don't do. Unimaginable depth and breadth, resulting in wild creativity and cross-pollination of ideas. It's also really fun, full of joy and having big positive impact.

Heh, I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

</comment><comment><USER145> Agreed. Except you can still take off and go to any country you want once you have kids. It just takes a little more work - don't give up your freedom so easily PG!

</comment><comment><USER195> "If I had kids, I'd become a parent, and parents, as I'd known since I was a kid, were uncool."

If you're still thinking that way, you're still a kid.

</comment><comment><USER196> For those who can and cannot have kids: remember the tremendous need in the foster care system! As St James says taking care of orphans is the true religion!

</comment><comment><USER197> I have 1 and 3 years old. I do manage to get time for myself but can get really though. It's one hour to my "golden hour" ;)

</comment><comment><USER198> Happiness = Money + Children [http://archive.vn/LvxSN](http://archive.vn/LvxSN)

</comment><comment><USER199> Of course after having kids there is no way back, so people try to convince themselves and others of what a great experience it is...

</comment><comment><USER200> From watching nature with a dispassionate eye, you would tend to get the idea that the meaning and purpose of life is nothing more than reproduction, i.e. making more life. Well, why would it be different for humans, other than the exquisite vanity of our _wanting_ it to be different? Our wanting the universe to be governed by a god who looks like us, for example. Our wanting to be "happy" or "fulfilled" and so on. No, we're basically animals, just mentally a bit more complicated. So I think our lives are pretty much all about reproduction too, but with an overlay of "meaning" that is completely arbitrary. Your life can be about reproduction if you want, or it can be meaningless, or it can be filled with whatever meaning you want to fill it with (i.e. make up from whole cloth, or borrow from the collective). I find this freeing, because it puts me in control, but your mileage may vary.

Anyway, my challenge to everyone here is to try and unify the pre- and post- children mindsets. The stuff you're interested in doing before you have kids might be the same stuff that later interests you about your kids. Take the statement, "Shoot, I have kids, so I can't go out anymore." Well why were you "going out?" Was it "to meet people?" That's kind of just code for "meeting sex partners" and don't tell me this is not at least in the back of your mind, hovering near the threshold of consciousness (if not an explicit goal). And well, you know what sex is for. It's not so you can have a good time; it's what evolution uses to trick you into making more humans.

When you're attracted to someone, you're really just assessing them and deeming them reproductively fit. Those traits might include a fit body indicating health/robustness; a nice face indicating (studies have shown) the person is near the average of the gene pool and therefore carrying tried-and- true genetic material; a personality that indicates a good chance they would behave kindly toward any offspring; and an intellect that shows they could solve any problems that come up.

Working with computers or doing any other challenging mental problem, playing an instrument, having a bunch of money (or things that cost a lot of money), doing feats of daring like base-jumping or whatnot, all of these are ways of displaying your fitness for mating. Before some of them became "occupations" you could earn "money" with, they would've been used for solving problems to protect or feed or clothe (etc.) the village or tribe and its progeny. (Not base-jumping specifically, but challenging oneself with risky feats of daring, and coming out on top, that does prove something about your courage and skill, which would at the very least be useful in hunting or defense.)

School and all childhood learning are preparation for mating, or for learning one of the above preparations for mating, or for "being an adult" which equals mating. Interestingly some of that involves sheltering the child from mating concerns, which is consistent with how we train noobs everywhere. We don't be givin' you the source code for the compiler during the "Write your first hello world" tutorial, for example.

Life is meaningless, or it's about mating, or it's about whatever bullshit you want. Have a nice day!

</comment><comment><USER201> Kids are 1 and 3. The 1 yo doesn't sleep through the night. No family nearby. I really needed this thread.

</comment><comment><USER202> Question: Does anyone decide to have children selflessly, for the explicit benefit of the unborn child?

</comment><comment><USER203> Parenthood, if appropriate, is a set of tiles that make a fine addition to the mosaic of life.

</comment><comment><USER204> Also, some parents do develop those feelings, but over time rather than immediately.

</comment><comment><USER205> Good parents don't have to worry if they left the world a better place

</comment><comment><USER206> [https://www.bartleby.com/3/1/8.html](https://www.bartleby.com/3/1/8.html)

Of Marriage and Single Life

Francis Bacon

HE that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune; for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief. Certainly the best works, and of greatest merit for the public, have proceeded from the unmarried or childless men; which both in affection and means have married and endowed the public. Yet it were great reason that those that have children should have greatest care of future times; unto which they know they must transmit their dearest pledges. Some there are, who though they lead a single life, yet their thoughts do end with themselves, and account future times impertinences. 1 Nay, there are some other that account wife and children but as bills of charges. Nay more, there are some foolish rich covetous men, that take a pride in having no children, because they may be thought so much the richer. For perhaps they have heard some talk, Such an one is a great rich man, and another except to it, Yea, but he hath a great charge of children; as if it were an abatement to his riches. But the most ordinary cause of a single life is liberty, especially in certain self-pleasing and humorous 2 minds, which are so sensible of every restraint, as they will go near to think their girdles and garters to be bonds and shackles. Unmarried men are best friends, best masters, best servants; but not always best subjects; for they are light to run away; and almost all fugitives are of that condition. A single life doth well with churchmen; for charity will hardly water the ground where it must first fill a pool. It is indifferent for judges and magistrates; for if they be facile and corrupt, you shall have a servant five times worse than a wife. For soldiers, I find the generals commonly in their hortatives put men in mind of their wives and children; and I think the despising of marriage amongst the Turks maketh the vulgar soldier more base. Certainly wife and children are a kind of discipline of humanity; and single men, though they may be many times more charitable, because their means are less exhaust, yet, on the other side, they are more cruel and hardhearted (good to make severe inquisitors), because their tenderness is not so oft called upon. Grave natures, led by custom, and therefore constant, are commonly loving husbands, as was said of Ulysses, vetulam suam prætulit immortalitati [he preferred his old wife to immortality]. Chaste women are often proud and froward, as presuming upon the merit of their chastity. It is one of the best bonds both of chastity and obedience in the wife, if she think her husband wise; which she will never do if she find him jealous. Wives are young men's mistresses; companions for middle age; and old men's nurses. So as a man may have a quarrel 3 to marry when he will. But yet he 4 was reputed one of the wise men, that made answer to the question, when a man should marry,—A young man not yet, an elder man not at all. It is often seen that bad husbands have very good wives; whether it be that it raiseth the price of their husband's kindness when it comes; or that the wives take a pride in their patience. But this never fails, if the bad husbands were of their own choosing, against their friends' consent; for then they will be sure to make good their own folly.

</comment><comment><USER207> In the latest essays the in-text links to footnotes are missing ...

</comment><comment><USER208> > I hate to say this, because being ambitious has always been a part of my > identity, but having kids may make one less ambitious.

Of course this is true. Can someone think of a single $10B+ founded by someone who already had a kid? Now a single $100B+ company?

<comment><USER96> I don't follow start ups, but the one I am familiar with: SendGrid. One of the founders had several kids.

<comment><USER208> SendGrid is not a $10B+ valued company.

<comment><USER96> Sure. But they got to over $1B. I'd imagine this particular co-founder has a net worth approaching $100MM. That sounds like success to me. And it was done with a family and multiple children.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER209> I'm not knocking Paul Graham or anyone who did well for themselves. But comparing your experience with that of Paul Graham, one of the richest people on the planet, is pointless. The wealthy live on a completely different PLANET than you or me.

Of course he enjoys having kids, he has NONE of the stress of supporting himself and his family.

His kids are going to have private tutors and house cleaners.

He won't sweat the cost of daycare. He will never have to worry about paying for college.

He is going to have a nanny whenever he needs someone to watch the kids.

He will never have to worry about making rent for the rest of his life.

He will still be able to pursue whatever he dreams of with basically 0 risk.

<comment><USER210> As a counterpoint, this essay resonated with me very deeply, and I earn a low salary for an engineer in NYC.

We do fine as a family and have to make compromises I couldn't have imagined making prior to having kids, but it's totally worth it.

This type of experience isn't universal but doesn't require massive wealth.

<comment><USER211> No one is saying it's not possible or not worthwhile; just that it's a very different experience in some ways.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER212> what is the augustine quote he is referencing?

<comment><USER39> "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

A right knave's prayer, but then Augustine was a right knave until his saintly mother finally set him straight.

</comment></comment><comment><USER213> Reminds me that I need to schedule my vasectomy.

</comment><comment><USER214> Beautifully written Paul. Thank you!

</comment><comment><USER215> TL;DR having kids is cool.

</comment><comment><USER216> one of my biggest regrets is not having kids.

I had the chance, but I squandered it.

</comment><comment><USER217> Graham not being able to appreciate something until he experiences it himself is peak PG.

</comment><comment><USER218> Paul, what's it going to take for you to get a free SSL cert on your personal blog?

</comment><comment><USER219> Yes.

We should structure society so people can have kids. With stay at home moms.

Not just impossibly rich older guys.

Everyone.

</comment><comment><USER220> Didn't know sites without TLS/SSL still existed!

</comment><comment><USER221> Nice article but not convinced.

I see zero upside in having children.

<comment><USER222> Then don't have any! People get so prickly about discussions about children, like they're scared someone is going to press gang them into parenthood.

</comment></comment><comment><USER223> Please adopt. There is no reason to clone yourself.

</comment><comment><USER224> I've had a lot of thoughts while reading posts here, but my predominant thought is about how vital it is that we approach parenting with a mindset that helps us place our roles as parents in a helpful perspective. While your work is important for the obvious reason of supporting yourself and your family, raising your children well is far more important in many ways. Unfortunately, the cause and effect or investment and reward of parenting is far less tangible than that of work. Many of us spent a lot of exhausting, sleepless days and nights in college. It was an investment in ourselves to prepare us to live independently and successfully. These exhausting, sleepless days and nights that we spend as parents is a similar investment, but this time it isn't an investment in ourselves: it's an investment in our children. Are they worth the investment? Of course they are, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that they are not. People are just trying to grapple with the struggle. One of the ways to handle an arduous struggle is to meet it with a healthy mindset; a different mindset than the one we've developed to that point in life.

Mindsets are not always easy to change, but changing them is part of life and sometimes the changes are forced on us. For example, when we lose jobs, we have to change our career mindsets; the old career that we may have loved may no longer work in our lives. That's life. Life isn't a static state and sometimes the states change whether we want them to or not. We go through stages of life and we change as we grow older. Yes, we developed hobbies, made friends, and had fun before we had kids, but when we have kids, they should be one of our new "hobbies". They should be a new "job". They can be our new "friends" and new fun. Parenting shouldn't be something that gets in the way of your life; it _is_ your way of life. These little people depend on you to make them into functional people who can meet the demands of life. We can't just be task-masters who change diapers and shovel food into their mouths. Meeting their needs well will develop their senses of security, responsibility, and belonging in life. We have to treat them like the people that they are; we're getting to know them and they're getting to know us. It's far more important than that though, because we're shaping them and they're shaping us.

We also have to pay attention to how we socialize with them. How we interact from the very beginning is going to help determine how they interact with us and with others. I've seen so many parents who mindlessly fall into antagonistic relationships with their kids and spouses, without a philosophical idea of how this impacts the development of their personalities and our relationships with them. And here's the kicker: how we interact when they're babies and toddlers will help determine the nature of our relationships with them as they grow older. Contrary to what so many people say, it is helpful to reason with children long before they understand the full ramifications of the reasoning process. It's like on-the-job training of life: you're teaching them to reason. If there's a reason why they shouldn't be doing things, explain to them what the reason is instead of spanking them or dismissively saying, "because I said so." Your willingness to invest the time with them when they're young and your determination to make that time meaningful will help make it more likely that you'll have meaningful time with them as they get older. Having teenagers who wanted to hang with dad was so much more rewarding than my peers whose kids wanted nothing to do with them.

Big picture thinking. It doesn't give us more energy, but sometimes inspiration does. Another thing that may help is looking at your little children and imagining how helpless they are in this world. And they're looking at you with awe, believing in you and depending on you to make their lives work.

</comment><comment><USER225> There's something I've noticed that's always conspicuously absent from Paul's writing: The ability to view the world from a perspective other than his own.

I'm sure having kids was great when you were rich and it was the '90s. Not so much anymore, especially if you aren't rich.

</comment><comment><USER226> Hi all, longtime HN reader here. I see the angst in some posts and would like to let you know it's possible to have time for what matters to you and good relationships with a spouse and children.

First off - I'm 44 and have 5 kids, expecting my 6th.

TLDR; Lots of kids, lots of (good) coffee, lots of love and laughs.

My wife and I are expecting our 6th child, a boy, in April. We live in a suburb 25 min North of NYC having previously lived in Manhattan. She's from NYC, I'm from he Midwest. Neither of us come from big families.

Anyway, my kids are an 11 yo girl, 7 yo boy, 5 yo boy, 3 yo girl, 18mo boy. I'm sure people think we are nuts. We are not religious, we are not particularly wealthy, we don't have nannies or even a baby-sitter for that matter, we just want to have a big family and figure it out as we go.

Before I get into details, I highly recommend investing in a very good espresso machine and very good coffee. It's pretty important ;)

The way we have things set up is as follows: I run the business (small web dev consultancy that's basically me plus a few freelancers) while my wife runs the household, schedule and logistics for he family. This is key. Good planning makes everything flow. Kids like to understand what to expect and it enables them to contribute appropriately too.

I work from home as much as possible so that I can take my kids to/from school and schedule calls and meetings when I know the little ones are napping. I am capable of completely tuning out noise and getting into the zone so I can work from the couch if I feel like being in the mix with the little people running around. Usually I manage to snap out of my work trans at key times like when someone wants my help or attention and then return to whatever I was doing without being totally derailed.

Work/life balance? What's that? I've been documenting the good life with kids from my perspective for eventual release in a "dad" blog (for a change since there are so many mommy blogs) and I work at times when other people sleep, on vacation, pretty much anytime/anywhere but I like it.

It's gotten easier with practice, all of it. Easier to really listen to what people of all ages are really saying. Easier to share how I feel about things and elicit exchange. Easier weed out drama and incompatible clients, taxing relationships and unfulfilling habits.

Basically, the necessity to be on track with right livelihood has made the distinction between work and life kind of unimportant because I just do what needs to be done and what needs to be done is what I want to be doing... It's kind of liberating and feels remarkably clear and carefree given the responsibility I have.

It has not always felt like this. I have bouts of worry and anxiety that peel away to the eventual "back on track". 11 years into fatherhood I feel happier than at any time in the past and with greater stability.

Sometime around the time my third child was born, I had developed the "tune out noise", "tune out bullshit" and "focus on what counts" skills to recover from anxiety, work stress and life's surprises out of necessity. The skill arrived little by little, pretty much automatically without any conscious effort on my part.

On that note, my 3rd child was the hardest psychologically (in the months leading up to his birth) and to some extent logistically. Thoughts of "Where will we live?", " How will we afford to provide the things we want to?", "What if I can't do it?", "What if I can't pull it off?". The poor guy brought up all of my suppressed insecurities - in my mind going from two children to three was turning things up to ELEVEN! Turns out, he was suer cool, I was able to pay rent, we figured it out...

After an adjustment phase replete with lots of changes (moves, business changes and more) things became clearer on their own and what do you know, life went on!

I told one of my colleagues in Vietnam who is thinking of staring a family about the fear of not being able to provide or live up to some ideal and he told me a nice proverb:

"The earth gave birth to an elephant and then gave birth to grass"

I like that better than "Necessity is the mother of invention" it seems kinder...

My 4th and 5th children have been the easiest from the "have time" perspective...because I know how it works now.

Whether or not it's accurate, I perceive myself as having more time now, with five children, than how I felt with two children.

I imagine that 6 will be pretty overwhelming at first because I've been feeling the scale of meals, laundry, bathing, schedules, transportation, any activity we do as a group... but I know that we'll find a rhythm and it will work out.

Regarding work with kids schedules, they punctuate my workday to say the least but it's great. I spend a lot of time with them and get a huge charge from our relationships.

Will I ever retire? Probably not, even if I could. Do I have a lot of money to throw around, nope, not yet. I am ok with this. I would pay more than I could earn without kids to have the relationships I have with my children and to facilitate them growing up together.

Before my first child was born, I had a sort of flashy lifestyle and no sense of continuity or meaning beyond striving. Goals would be set and meet and followed by either a desire for more or emptiness. I no longer feel this way in the least.

I attribute that shift in large part to the quality of relationships I have with my wife, our children, our family and community. I am focused on things that are important to the people I care about and it works for me.

I doubt I'll ever regret the time I've spent with my kids or the "sacrifices" I've made to accommodate having a large family. I think each age offers magical opportunities to learn, connect, nurture, grow. I think that the time and investment I make in family causes me to enjoy the present, focus on what is really congruent with what matters to me, our family and our needs.

Have you ever heard of someone proclaiming any of the following on their death bead?

"I wish I had spent less time with my children" or "I wish I had been a bigger success and much richer instead of having a family" or "If I'd only had fewer children, I would have lead a fuller life..."

:)

</comment><comment><USER227> ight, so this will probably come across as self-centered an pathetic. But it's what I feel right now. I'm a 28 year old male, have a significant other, good income, and an education in Artificial Intelligence and Epidemiology (PhD drop out to start my own business). So nothing to be ashamed of, I don't think. I run a small team, with nice, friendly, competent, and hand-picked colleagues. I have family that cares about me. But every day, all day, I spend looking at a computer screen. Day in, day out, I'm glued to my screen. Some days it's exciting, some days it's mind numbing and boring. Some days I go for a walk, alone. And no days, for the past year or so, I've felt like I connected with someone. I tweet about 10 tweets a day, I get favorites, a retweet occasionally. I work from home. I've alienated all my friends. I'm barely in contact with the people from high-school or university. I don't know why, I just forget or neglect to message back. You can do that twice, then they forget about you too. I rarely forget though, they still linger in my mind daily.

So what's the problem? Is there a problem? I worry a lot. I think we're headed for a disaster. As a species, as a culture, our days are numbered. I read the reports, I've done enough math to see the implications; climate change will kill us. There might be some things to stop it, but they're too few, too late. I worry, a lot. In my day to day business I don't deal with this. I do machine learning for evidence based medicine, natural language processing basically. But what occupies my mind is the disaster we're headed. It's all connected. That sounds like something a mad man would say, in a delusional rage rant of incoherent sentences. Maybe it is. But, the thought fills me with a cognitive dissonance, a numbing and parallelizing feeling of nothingness. Are we even worth saving as a species? Why are we here? Why am I here. I did some philosophy reading. I like Sartre, Camus, Karl Jaspers. The absurdity of your own choices, your own life. Am I doing the right thing? Wouldn't it be better to spend my, arguably well educated, skills on the more pressing matters in life?

I made the choice not to have children. It's stupid to have children. We're overpopulated, and our resources are stretched thin. Unless we make space colonization or transhumanism a priority there's just a finite amount of "stuff". We're reaching the finiteness of that stuff. Maybe not today, but growth is exponential, the cup will be half full before it's full. Things change slowly, then quickly. Some people think it's arrogant not to have children. But what makes your genes so special? I sequenced mine, all of it, it's nothing special. I might get a tattoo with my special genes (the ones with a low minor allele frequency). Perhaps some people get children because they're lonely. I'm lonely. What's left in life? What will be my contribution? If it's not another random soul on a planet headed for disaster, then what is? I'm thinking about planting trees. A lot of them. I spend months thinking about preventing climate change, and "trees" is all I could think of in the end. Besides, I cherish and romanticize the post-melodramatic idea of walking in my own forest.

What is the cause, what is the symptom? Where does my own hubris end, and do the problems of the world start? I am not so sure anymore. I don't have anyone to talk to about this. My ideas go unvalidated, they run amok in the days glued to my screen. The moments I'm in "the zone", and can focus on nothing but the code in front of me, are meditative. There's a spirituality in connecting with computers, alone. It's often neglected in the hipster computer science culture, with their faux new-atheist movements. Experiences can be mystical, there is a desire to transcend. I used to identify as an atheist, read the cruft by Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins. I don't think they hold water anymore. Mostly because they turn out to be assholes. I like the term Humanism. I like rationality, science done proper without the dogma. Our human condition is more than that though. I guess Jaspers would call it the "encompassing". Or some such, never got that figured out. Neither did he, probably.

Why am I here. I'm 28. With my health habits, I'll probably die of myocardial infarction at the age of 50. A BMI of 26 and bad genes does that to you. Male European genes are bad, mind you. Males are the weaker gender, don't be fooled; just look at the flimsy Y-chromosome. What will be my legacy? Does it even matter? I've been thinking of moving to Iceland. It makes sense to me: good sources of energy and water, small population. With the increasing climate change it might even be good for farming. Climate change has upsides. Migration coupled with fascism is the big downside, that and death of course. I had an idea for a short story: I've migrated to Iceland. Under a bright aurora I decide to go outside. The world has gone to shit. I didn't see the aurora coming. The NOAA satellites were deemed strategic assets for what was left of precision agriculture, and hence shut down for public access. I look up and see the bright green filaments move across the sky. I decide to take a look uphill, take my camera. I've made it, I'm happy. I still got it, I got my self-sustaining home, my books. I watch our insignificance as I ponder the implications of basic nuclear physics. I trip. And as I fall down the hill, breaking every bone, I gasp in my last life's breath "well isn't this ironic".

It's all been done before hasn't it? It doesn't matter, what matters is that you do something with your life. I'm a mess. Not on the outside, I give talks in my domain, I'm respected in the very narrow subfield I'm in, do the laundry, keep my teeth clean. I even take care of my body, although not as much as I like. But it's my mind. It's my goddamn mind. We're headed for disaster: I can see it when I close my eyes.

Once you're caught in one of the migration streams, trying to catch the next plane or boat, you'll think of the endless queues in Disneyland. That is what will happen. And here I am, alone, sitting behind a screen.

</comment><comment><USER228> There's a lot of self affirmation in these comments. "I knew it was going to suck" so it does suck.

We knew we wouldnt be able to do as much but wanted to live like we had before kids. 2 kids (3 years and 2 months) later, 3 international vacations (2 more booked next year), 3 new jobs, 3x tc growth, and continuing to push and progress in both careers. And we're not all that special. Its just a non- defeatest mindset and mutual effort.

</comment><comment><USER229> > changes that happened almost instantly when our first child was born. It was > like someone flipped a switch. I suddenly felt protective not just toward > our child, but toward all children.

This was my experience, too, and I was utterly unprepared for it despite having been told to expect it -- and even welcoming such a change in myself. So Paul is right, there seems to be no substitute for first-hand experience in this case.

</comment><comment><USER230> The experience of having kids involves a relationship that spans something more than 25 years.

I remember seeing research done on people that have had the full experience and the overall ratings of happiness were lower.

<comment><USER93> Citation needed

<comment><USER100> Decades of data suggest parenthood makes people unhappy [https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/should-you-have- kids](https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/should-you-have-kids)

Many Parents Are Happier Than Non-Parents — But Not in the U.S. [https://time.com/collection/guide-to- happiness/4370344/paren...](https://time.com/collection/guide-to- happiness/4370344/parents-happiness-children-study/)

Having kids makes you happier, but only when they move out [https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids- mak...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2213655-having-kids-makes-you- happier-but-only-when-they-move-out/)

The depressing reason why having kids doesn't actually make you happier [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-theory-on-why- having-k...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-theory-on-why-having-kids- makes-people-unhappy-2019-02-26)

<comment><USER230> There's a strange anecdotal contradiction with the research. Although much research says otherwise I'm finding that anecdotally people disagree with my statement and they actually end up have multiple children indicating that the first one was an enjoyable experience.

I think what's going on is that those research studies are picking up on unbiased measures of happiness.

In general if you ask people if children make their lives happier, they answer yes. However if you ask the same people about there overall happiness on a 1-5 scale people with children score lower then people without.

This makes sense from a biological perspective. Having an extra person to take care of; who only takes advantage of your hard earned resources without contributing does not give you any intrinsic form of happiness in any context unless this extra person is your child. Your body produces chemicals to counteract the unhappiness to satisfy your biological imperative but the main stressors are still their and can be measured in a survey that asks you questions about your happiness without the context of children.

It's hard to say if it actually is better to have kids. Is it like falling in love? Are we better off with the ability to fall in love?

As of this writing, my initial post has negative three votes which indicates general disagreement. Obviously, I don't have kids so I can only observe the phenomenon from an impartial standpoint.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER159> Someone with the power to delete comments realized something unpleasant... how long will it take for this comment to be deleted?

</comment><comment><USER14> I'd even go further and say it's irresponsible these days to post things like this. If nothing else, because we know the Earth cannot support many more people. Or at least it's looking that way.

I think as a society we need to get away from sappy Hallmark channel stuff like this and celebrate the individual. We should not be made to feel like having kids is some transcendental thing.

Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age. Parenthood is just a thing to do, nothing more. There's no need to make people believe they want to have kids when it will more likely decrease their happiness, and definitely increase co2.

<comment><USER231> I'd go further and say that the central question shouldn't be whether having kids makes _our_ lives better in some way, but rather is it right to impose a life on a person, as well as the inevitable death they will eventually have to face, with all the potential negative experiences in between just to fulfill a selfish desire. A strong case can be made that the answer is no: [https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life- affirming...](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming- its-immoral)

<comment><USER14> A case could also be made for the opposite: is it right to deny a hypothetical not-yet-conceived person the opportunity of life, just so you can have more free time? I think both arguments boil down to nothing.

<comment><USER231> No it can't because you cannot deprive a person that doesn't exist of anything. That's an absurdist position. Also the free-time aspect of it for me doesn't even factor because, as I said, the argument isn't whether being a parent or not is better for _me_ but for the person that is going to have to live the live that is imposed upon them.</comment></comment></comment></comment>