Taiwan's digital minister on combatting disinformation without censorship - <AUTHOR> https://cpj.org/blog/2019/05/qa-taiwans-digital-minister-on-combatting-disinfor.php <comment><USER3> I don't know if it's the same person, but I believe I may have spoken to Tang about a draft of work she did in the POSA book about EtherCalc. I can understand from just that interaction how she became digital minister. I have never had someone parse and respond to an email so thoroughly or had a better technical discussion in my life. And the work she did on that project scaling EtheCalc with Node and LiveScript, and also the creation of webworker-threads years ago, to me those were very inspiring projects. Never interacted with anyone with better technical abilities.

That interaction gives me the idea that if I am critical and she happens to enter this thread, it will not fall on deaf ears. I don't really like sounding negative, and especially in this case they are much better than most countries.

What is described is better than China, but it's not ideal. However I do think they should be commended from explicitly avoiding censorship to the degree that they do.

However, communications from the government to counter other communications identified as disinformation are government propaganda. If they are not identified as such, then they have the same problem as the original disinformation.

Secondly, making it easy to flag propaganda in apps and then blocking it as she describes is in fact building in a type of censorship. It's just a brilliant type of crowd-sourced censorship. I know the theory is that that would only be applied to false information. However, censorship doesn't work like that. The end result is going to be a worldview that is reduced and shaped by a dominant group rather than the free flow of information. Especially if it relates to all of the information that people in a country can see. This can be very dangerous.

So I will just say what I think would be ideal even if it may not be very realistic. The history of government propaganda and censorship should be part of the public context. I think it is good to be able to flag articles as being propaganda and from what source. However I think that removing things from being visible entirely is very dangerous for freedom. Taiwanese/US/Chinese/etc. government propaganda or counter-propaganda should be identified as such if possible. Perhaps a generic way to say something is propaganda or bias and a generic way to indicate where you think it's coming from (could be a political party or country). However the news that I see from large media, about 90% of it qualifies. I don't think it should be possible for these flags to remove information from the stream. Although certainly there can be standards related to removing things like gore -- but this needs to be monitored to make sure that it does not get used for political censorship.

<comment><USER4> > However, communications from the government to counter other communications > identified as disinformation are government propaganda. If they are not > identified as such, then they have the same problem as the original > disinformation.

Yes, that's why you need an independent media, as mentioned in the article: "The mainstream media, of course, then picks up this counter-narratives and then do a balanced report."

> making it easy to flag propaganda in apps and then blocking it [...] all of > the information that people in a country can see

From the article, emphasis mine: "stop being _preferred_ to show on people's newsfeed, but it's not censorship. If you look specifically for that friend, that post is still there, but they have a warning that says it's already fact- checked as false."

They key word here is _preferred_. It's not blocked, but rather deprioritized and contextualized.

Obviously, there's good reason to still be uncomfortable with this, because this advantages the dominant worldview. Fundamentally though, tradeoffs have to be made, to prevent things like the Rohingya crisis and the emboldening of the far-right. Deprioritizing and contextualizing of fringe worldviews, without fully blocking them, seems like a good tradeoff to me.

<comment><USER5> Would any of this be a problem if social sites would restore chronological news feeds?

99% of these "problems" stem from newsfeeds that are algorithmic rather than simply chronological.

<comment><USER4> First of all, there's a known, deadly problem of disinformation spreading via WhatsApp forwarding [1], and I'm pretty sure WhatsApp notifications are chronological.

But in any case, definitely none of this would be a problem if we got rid of the Internet. What's your point?

Algorithmic newsfeeds benefit social media companies enormously (by increasing engagement) and at least some consumers (I'm not denying they also hurt some consumers). They'll never voluntarily give them up, and banning them would be an extremely oddly specific measure that's probably unconstitutional and definitely has lots of loopholes ("we're not an algorithm newsfeed---we just prioritizing your notifications, like Gmail's Priority Inbox").

They're here to stay. We can fix them or come up with something better that eclipses them, but there's no banning them.

[1]: [https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/21/18191455/whatsapp- forward...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/21/18191455/whatsapp-forwarding- limit-five-messages-misinformation-battle)

<comment><USER5> I never suggested banning anything. I'm merely asking questions. But sure, to play devil's advocate, is there some precedent here? Maybe with cigarettes for example?

Nicotine cigarettes benefit tobacco companies enormously (by increasing addiction). They'll never voluntarily give them up, either. Yet we have approaches for dealing with addictive consumables; taxes, health warnings, education, etc. I wonder if similar approaches might work when applied to social media.

<comment><USER4> Thanks for the thoughtful response; upvoted.

I don't think cigarettes are a relevant precedent. It's not like cigarettes cause cancer in some people and make others healthier. (I guess it can make you thinner? But yet it still increases your likelihood of heart disease.)

Algorithmic newsfeeds are a much better experience for many people, who don't want thoughtful discussion and wedding and family photos buried under people announcing to the world that they're pooping.

You also didn't respond to my point that deadly viral WhatsApp forwards refute your contention that "99%" of disinformation problems are due to algorithmic rather than chronological newsfeeds.

<comment><USER6> Other than rate-limiting, I don't know how you can avoid WhatsApp forwards becoming a problem without violating E2E encryption. However, WhatsApp seems to act more as an amplifier than as a net originator of content, so it makes sense to look at places where misinformation is first published.

With pure timeline-based views, the ability to reinforce misinformation is diminished -- yes, people can repost and troll news mechanically, but that can be rate-limited. So I don't think we should throw the idea out the window just yet.

<comment><USER4> I'm not sure what you mean about acting as an amplifier---how is that different from social media like Facebook?

You might be right about the reinforcement being diminished, just like misinformation existed before the Internet, but getting rid of the Internet would surely diminish the reinforcement. Like I asked above, so what? There's no going back.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Tang speaks of propaganda and disinformation and how historic propaganda by the government is more or less indistinguishable from disinformation at least by a significant segment of the population.

...But she says that to combat disinformation campaigns the government ministries are in charge of pre-empting disinformation by disseminating their version of information...

But that seems like a contradiction. Government was a source of misinformation in the past, but now is the source of truth (as in the past). How is that reconciled? How does one know when the government is being truthful versus being propagandists?

Now, I get that the PRC has definite identifiable goals so it might be easier to suss out here, but what about other areas?

<comment><USER8> " _propaganda (n.) information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view._ "

If the Taiwanese government ministries were putting out information _of a misleading or slanted nature_ in their official capacity, the press and public would rightly call them out on it.

<comment><USER7> But the minister herself indicates the government did just that in the past

Beside, if the press and public could and would call out government propaganda (which according to the minister is pretty much indistinguishable from disinformation) why would they need the government to pre-empt and counter it if it's easy to spot?

<comment><USER9> In the "past" that the minister is referring to, Taiwan was a military dictatorship; other than a few brave souls sitting in jail, there was no political opposition, and there was no free press. There was no (legal) alternative to government propaganda. Even publications from overseas were censored (by ink and scissors) as they entered Taiwan.

The article suggests that today's government, under the careful supervision of the opposition parties and the independent press (both of which now exist), has resources that allow it to detect propaganda, and preemptively respond to it, in a way that individuals cannot.

<comment><USER7> Let's just say the KMT (blue) and the DPP (Green Party) have differing takes on some things.

<comment><USER10> KMT being basically pro unification means the PRC is more Chiang Kai-Shek style than DPP I guess?

Conservativism trumps historical rivalries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There's an attitude in the United States that any and all legal restrictions are "bad for business" and should be rejected out of hand. I think this article offers a counterpoint: even with the restrictions the article describes, these social media companies still find it worthwhile to be in the market and to invest staff and tools to work within the law. One of government's core jobs is to regulate the boundaries within which the market competes, and this is a great example of that.

<comment><USER12> Any restriction, well, restricts the space of available business moves.

OTOH not every restriction is going to ruin a business, or even affect its bottom line materially. Certain businesses can even ask for a restriction if the restriction limits them much less than it limits their competition.

<comment><USER13> Is that a sufficient criteria to say that regulation is bad? As a society we decide on minimum standards that businesses must follow; for example, if a domestic American company needs child labor to survive we've already decided it's a company and jobs not worth having.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> For a very brief time, late in the Cold War, the US State Department had a _very shoestring_ team called the "Active Measures Working Group" who worked to investigate and counteracting disinformation. They had some success, such as uncovering the Soviet origins of the lie that the US created AIDS in a military lab, but the effort was wound down after the Soviet Union fell:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Measures_Working_Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Measures_Working_Group)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/opinion/russia- meddling-d...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/12/opinion/russia-meddling- disinformation-fake-news-elections.html) (very good video series, highly recommend for anyone interested in disinformation)

[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-long-history-of- russia...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-long-history-of-russian- disinformation-targeting-the-u-s)

<comment><USER3> Off the top of my head, I don't have a bunch of links, but it is my impression that propaganda and counter-propaganda are extremely important strategic ongoing activities for all major governments including the US. This is due to the relationship between overt state activities (i.e., they need to be motivated by ethical concerns) and the press.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Wiki page of Audrey Tang: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Tang](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Tang)

She also has many very inspiring talks on slideshare about open source software.

<comment><USER16> One of her projects, EtherCalc, is my preferred spreadsheet software of choice. So it's a bit of a context shift to see political interviews! But her position on combating disinformation without censorship seems pretty on-point, and where I'd really like to see the conversation shift here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Combatting disinformation will become more and more important for every organization. I'm glad to see at least one government taking it seriously and pushing social/media companies to actually do something and add tools. When will we have degree programs in Disinformation Prevention and Control, Anti- Manipulation, Discourse Integrity? How about job titles like Discourse Protector, Media Accountability Officer, Fact-Checker, and Truth Wielder? I think companies usually hire PR firms to do this work. That's like hiring thieves to protect your valuables. It can work, but is it really the best strategy?

</comment><comment><USER18> >Each of our ministries now has a team that is charged to say if we detect that there is a disinformation campaign going on, but before it reaches the masses, they're in charge to make within 60 minutes an equally or more convincing narrative.

a very interesting approach that seems to be working for taiwan. i think that European countries may be able to implement something similar with good results. of course, it relies on the government ministries being uniformly oriented against disinformation -- something that we in the US cannot manage, as many elements in our government benefit from certain kinds of disinformation.

notably, for all its merits, the taiwanese system still positions the government in an information vetting capacity, which may lead some to think that it is merely another system of propaganda or quasi-censorship. i don't have enough context to tell whether this is the case or not, but at the core the entire taiwanese plan relies on the ministries as being able to tell the difference between disinformation and facts. in other words, it's fundamentally a critical-thinking based system.

<comment><USER19> >notably, for all its merits, the taiwanese system still positions the government in an information vetting capacity, which may lead some to think that it is merely another system of propaganda or quasi-censorship

This is kind of how I see it too. I think if your goal is to combat disinformation or propaganda you should just come out straight up and say it because it's a perfectly defensible position to hold, but creating a government counter-narrative isn't any more harmless than just censoring something, it's just sounds nicer than having to use the word "censor" which tends to make people in some parts of the word jump up in panic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> > Once they do that, Facebook promises, by June, that this will inform the > Facebook's algorithm so that it will stop being preferred to show on > people's newsfeed, but it's not censorship. If you look specifically for > that friend, that post is still there, but they have a warning that says > it's already fact-checked as false.

That'd be very interesting if the Taiwanese government was in direct communication with Facebook over something like this. CPJ wasn't able to get a hold of Facebook, I wonder if anyone here has visibility into something like that? Given that the US government took a more "combative" approach (dragging executives in front of Congress) I'd be curious how more tame approaches like this were being received.

<comment><USER21> It is censorship though. Part of the job of the censor is to determine whether the likelyhood some information will be seen, justifies the censorship in question.

You can read the censor reports from the estado novo for example, and in many of them the censor declined to ban the book because even though it was objectively illegal, it would naturally be a book that wouldn't be sought after by the general public, and so only those who knew about it would look for it.

I'd say this is an even more pernicious form of censorship because you dont know what you dont know.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I can't wait to go to Taiwan, the country seems to be amazing and this confirms it.

I feel bad for them, for the pressure that China is pushing though. I hope it gets resolved one day.

<comment><USER23> Just imagining how disappointing it must have been for Taiwan when democracy failed, again, in China (on my mind due to the Tiannamen Square massacre 30 year anniversary)

<comment><USER24> Just a nitpick, Taiwan wasn't yet a democracy in 1989. It was close, but they had to wait until 1996 before having their first democratic elections.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Isn't this sort of media manipulation? How is it philosophically different from censorship?

> We're developing a very similar system here where people online and other > instant message systems, they can forward a suspicious disinformation to a > bot. Currently the most popular bot for that is called CoFact, for > collaborative fact, but very soon, in June, LINE will build that as its core > functionality so all you have to do is to press a message, or a long tap, > and then you can flag it as disinformation.

Is it making the whole system more vulnerable to manipulation? Trolls only need to click twice now instead of drafting a comment. In the end, it would be a race of who has the biggest troll farm.

</comment><comment><USER26> is anyone interested in an hn meetup in taipei? found it hard to like-minded tech focused people, talking English, that dont mind a beer from time to time, and would like to talk about the last google cloud downtime or it's current side project

<comment><USER20> We're moving there soon so I'll preemptively put my hand up. Feel free to email me, or pop a link to some means of communication and I'll hop in!

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Wow, that's Audrey Tang, of Perl6 (pugs) fame. A serious hacker.

<comment><USER28> Yeah, my impression of Taiwan just went up again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29>
        China is making an effort to influence public opinion in Taiwan through the media.

Take a look at this post I saw a few days ago. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20058551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20058551)

While two dogs are fighting for a bone, a third runs away with it.

What people saw is disinformation that _looks like_ from China, or China _looks like_ is the most beneficial one from the disinformation. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's from China. There might be third parties faking it to sabotage the relationship between China and Taiwan. Aka false flag.

Or simply put, I could create disinformation about me, then I crack it. That will probably discredit my competitor, even though he/she did nothing.

Of course, people could call this conspiracy theory, because lack of evidence. Similarly, people shouldn't consider that so-called China's effort is true. At least to me, I won't be so sure before I see some solid evidence.

<comment><USER20> Taiwan is a critical democratic ally off the coast of communist China - <USER2> would US intelligence agencies attack the public perception of the sovereignty of the nation?

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Audrey Tang's github profile: [https://github.com/audreyt](https://github.com/audreyt)

</comment><comment><USER31> Great approach, and a smart minister. Living in Taipei I can only congratulate the country for this lively and young democracy. If you consider moving to Asia, Taiwan is the most forward, fair and open society.

<comment><USER20> I'll second that.

I was there during the sunflower protests. Student activist sat in the parliament building for a couple days. The entire country rallied to their cause. Restaurants sent food, small shops (Taiwanese equivalent of Bodega) donated water, businesses sent pillows and blankets.

If you tried that in China,you'd be sent to a xinjiang reeducation camp. At the very least.

A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a shining and obvious example otherwise.

Not to mention the absurdly low cost of living, one of the best public transit systems in the world, socialized healthcare, strong education system churning out competent professionals, and mountains... My partner and I are preparing a semi permanent move in the next few years.

Edit: if anyone is curious, I documented my cost of living there back in 2014. Fair warning, I did so as a much younger, relatively naive dude, but the data's there anyway: [http://ablate.blogspot.com/2014/05/what-does-it-cost-to- live...](http://ablate.blogspot.com/2014/05/what-does-it-cost-to-live-in- asia.html?m=1)

<comment><USER32> > A common PRC propagandic trope is that the ten thousand years of Chinese > history doesn't lend the culture to democracy. That the culture is simply > incompatible with the concept - the people need autocracy. Taiwan is a > shining and obvious example otherwise.

Totally agreed. The sentiment appears on HN regularly and it's extremely annoying when there's such an obvious counterexample.

<comment><USER33> Having lived in China though the scale issue does seem to be a problem. A brief Google shows that Taiwan has a population of a little over 23mil whereas Hunan province alone has around 67mil and Sichuan has 87mil people. Add to this that because of lack of development and the legacy of Mao many of these people either have no education or live in remote mountains or both.

I'm not saying this means democracy is impossible, but if you work in tech I'd hope you'd be able to at least recognize that doing democracy in Taiwan is not even remotely comparable to doing it in China because of scale issues alone.

<comment><USER34> What would prevent a federal system from working in China?

<comment><USER35> For one, you'll get the same problems as all the homeless pouring into California, or poorer Central Americans pouring over the border, and the subsequent backlash. Democracies will not support the sort of development model that China has pursued of massive wealth transfer and development of the hinterlands. Developed areas will want to wall themselves off but less developed areas will want populist policies. Add on top of that ethnic issues that would be easily exploitable by demagogues. More likely than not the country falls apart.

Don't be so smug, the US and EU are only getting a small taste of the sort of problems that China has been facing for several thousand years as a diverse centralized state, and are already resorting to the sort of things that China ended up having to do with respect to social control and stability.

<comment><USER20> Why doesn't India have this problem?

<comment><USER35> Well yes, the other model is India where they tolerate certain problems and let them go on forever, but people can bitch about it. Analogous to the phenomenon of adults peeing and doing drugs on the streets of downtown SF.

Not saying it's better or worse in the end but at the least, the experiment goes on.

<comment><USER20> India is trying very hard to solve their problems, I'm curious where you get the idea that they're letting them "go on forever."

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/world/asia/india- toilet-m...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/world/asia/india-toilet- movie.html)

Regarding peeing specifically, India has a Nationwide push for increasing toilet infrastructure. The change over the past five years, let alone ten, is dramatic. Possibly faster than anything in human history.

I also don't understand why you think nobody is doing anything about people using the restroom on the streets of SF - new bathroom trailers are being added. It's not much but it's something, and more are coming.

If you have other ideas, would you like to join me tomorrow at 2pm for the next board of supervisors meeting to present them to the city?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> EU has also project that tries to combat disinformation

EU vs Disinformation campaign

[https://euvsdisinfo.eu/](https://euvsdisinfo.eu/)

<comment><USER17> From their About page, they are focused on disinformation coming from the government of Russia. Do you know if they do anything like Taiwan's 60-min response goal with accountability?

[https://euvsdisinfo.eu/about/](https://euvsdisinfo.eu/about/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The real nugget in here is their solution for dealing with fake news spreading on private social networks: it needs a centralized list just like with email's spam problem!

> Back in the early 2000s we, the Internet community, convinced each and every > mail operator to add that flag button to its interface so that when you flag > that as spam you're essentially donating the signature of this message. It's > not involuntary. It's a voluntary donation to a global system called the > Spamhaus, the Domain Block List, and so on.

> There's a whole system for that. It's like the email's immune system so that > after sufficient people flag it they do a correlation. After they correlated > the sender of the spam, once the sender sends another email it still reach > the recipient, it's not censorship, but it goes to the junk mail folder so > it doesn't waste people's time by default.

> We're developing a very similar system here where people online and other > instant message systems, they can forward a suspicious disinformation to a > bot. Currently the most popular bot for that is called CoFact, for > collaborative fact, but very soon, in June, LINE will build that as its core > functionality so all you have to do is to press a message, or a long tap, > and then you can flag it as disinformation.

</comment><comment><USER38> > First, before a propaganda campaign or disinformation spreads, we usually > observe that there is a point where they are doing some kind of limited > testing or A/B testing, and that's before it became really popular. It's > just testing the meme, the variation, to see whether it would go viral, so > to speak.

I have definitely seen this happen in real time. Suggest it publicly and you'll be accused of being Alex Jones, but it happens. Glad to see a public official acknowledging this.

> Our observation is that if we do that, then most of the population reach > this message like an inoculation before they reach the disinformation, and > so that protects like a vaccination.

Strange that I've just come across a paper related to this notion: [https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5090268](https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5090268)

An interesting approach, might be an oversimplification of real-world dynamics though.

> Once they do that, Facebook promises, by June, that this will inform the > Facebook's algorithm so that it will stop being preferred to show on > people's newsfeed, but it's not censorship. If you look specifically for > that friend, that post is still there, but they have a warning that says > it's already fact-checked as false.

This is much better than removing the post, but it still makes me nervous. Just imagine that we're in the early 2000s, and you can envision a banner saying "The claims in this article are FALSE. As confirmed by the intelligence community and the New York Times, Iraq is actively working on its nuclear weapons program." Perhaps they should have a policy limiting the use of this tool when it comes to issues that may lead to war.

<comment><USER39> I can tell you all about how the propaganda campaign to justify the Iraq invasion was pulled off. They had agents on message boards and all over the Internet even back then. They even drafted the comedian, Dennis Miller, to go on late night tv shows multiple times and push the propaganda there. I was astounded that very few people were talking about what a sell job it all was.

Just to refresh everyone's memory: Saddam didn't have WMDs. It was a total put up.

We need to somehow get these intelligence agencies and their deep state buddies put back in a box.

<comment><USER40> IIRC didn't they get bad intel from Iraqies who wanted an invasion (because they didn't like Sadam)? I think they might have known the intel was suspect, but didn't ask too many questions.

I grew up among conservative US expats who didn't have message boards and mostly didn't watch television. I think you underestimate the desire of some Americans to relive their glory days and "liberate" other countries.

Edit: I think most of them didn't really even care about WMDs, they just knew Sadam was an evil person (and to be fair, he was).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> For those that don't know, Audrey Tang was involved or wrote one of the early Perl6 VMs in Haskell iirc. I can't remember if it was Pugs or Parrot. The language still has Haskell roots.

<comment><USER42> It was Pugs. :-)

<comment><USER41> Haha. Always good to be corrected by the subject in question :)

Thanks for the hard work in helping to get that project off the ground btw. As a language user and not an implementor, I sometimes feel bad that I use so much open source software without giving anything back except word of mouth approval.

I haven't read the full article yet, but I'm sure it is an immensely complicated situation balancing individual freedoms versus the spread of "disinformation". That is what I got from skimming last night. In the US we have so much of this right now with anti-vaxxers and people turning against medical science in favor of fraudulent cures like "essential oils".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is the transcript of the original interview: [https://sayit.pdis.nat.gov.tw/2019-05-17-interview-with- stev...](https://sayit.pdis.nat.gov.tw/2019-05-17-interview-with-steve-butler)

In the interview concerns of government over-control did turn up, but it wasn't well addressed I think. The journalist skipped this part in the published article.

</comment><comment><USER44> Hard to take the article seriously given it's not even remotely objectively written. I guess it's another political org mouthpiece.

</comment><comment><USER45> >Each of our ministries now has a team that is charged to say if we detect that there is a disinformation campaign going on, but before it reaches the masses, they're in charge to make within 60 minutes an equally or more convincing narrative.

why wait? In many situations/events it is very predictable what fake news and disinformation will appear in say the next hours, so it is possible to do totally preventive Truth "injections" well before the disinformation appears (sometimes even before the originating situation/event happens itself).

One of the most important aspects in fake news and disinformation spread is the receptivity of the given populace to the fake news and information. That receptivity is based on many factors, like education, prejudices, economic and social situation, etc. For example, by systematically performing daily "ground Truth" disinformation "vaccinations" government can work on decreasing the prejudices and thus decreasing the disinformation receptivity of the populace.

<comment><USER46> I believe the 60 minutes is the 'max' time to respond, not the 'min' time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The comparison of disinformation to a virus and proactive counter-messaging to a vaccine understandable. It's also interesting because the words "virus" and "vaccine" only make sense in relationship to the host. In this case, are the people of a country the "host" or just the government in charge?</comment>


Building a Better Groupon - <AUTHOR> http://www.zacharyadamcohen.com/apps-and-services/building-a-better-groupon/ <comment><USER2> These critiques seem to fundamentally misunderstand the point of Groupon. For businesses, Groupon is a promotional expense. It's not an engine to make shopping more efficient. It's not a dating service that matches the best possible customers with their ideal vendors. It is, instead, a better way to spend money on local advertising than plowing it into radio commercials and newspaper ads.

From everything I've read of small business experiences with Groupon, the overwhelming majority of complaints seem to come from the quality of the leads Groupon generates. These complaints, too, miss some of the point. Groupon converts like online ad impressions convert. This isn't a tragedy: online ads are _brilliant_ for businesses that can harness them, and the promise of Groupon is to do the same for local business.

</comment><comment><USER3> "I've long believed that Groupon was basically a Ponzi scheme, enriching itself while acting like a parasite on the businesses it used to deliver its daily deals."

I'm not sure I understand this comparison. Am I missing something here or did the author simply make a poor analogy?

Groupon's users aren't investing their money, unless you view a 50% off coupon as a guaranteed 100% return investment. Even so, the performances of this "investment" isn't paid off by subsequent investors.

<comment><USER4> "Am I missing something here or did the author simply make a poor analogy?"

I'm not sure I understand your reading comprehension problem. The author not only explicitly stated his analogy about the similarities of Groupon and a Ponzi scheme but also defined and limited the scope of that similarity in the same sentence--not to mention the tediously long paragraphs that followed that were spent expounding on his thesis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> _The truth is that people who use Groupon-type deals are the last kind of customer your business wants._

I'd really like to see a study that proves this, because unless this is true then the entire article is bunk. Almost every form of advertising is based on some sort of incentive, and the concept of "mention this ad" to gain a benefit is not new. From the perspective of a small business owner, Groupon not only makes people aware of your restaurant/store/whatever, but also gets people in the door, which is something traditional advertising doesn't do.

I would postulate that just because they're coupon chasers doesn't make them bad customers. It just gives the business owner more reason to provide exceptional service and get people to come back even without an Groupon.

<comment><USER6> Myself, and my circle of friends, use Groupon and none of us could be accurately described as "coupon chasers". Frankly, articles like this come off sounding angry, jealous, and ignorant.

<comment><USER7> But within your experience, has the loss leader been justified in the restaurants/services you used Groupon for? Did you see yourself going again, possibly several times, for the business to recoup its loss?

<comment><USER6> Absolutely, more often than not.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think this post has a very smart idea in it. In essence, the author proposes that Groupon readers design 'deal templates' and businesses fulfill them. This way, Groupon is creating true customers, not deal chasers.

The idea of 'demand-driven' Groupon is an instance of a larger trend: demand- driven marketplaces. Before the Web almost all markets were supply-driven. Suppliers bring the products and customers can only choose from the list. With technologies like Google AdWords and Alibaba, customers get more power and pull the right products/content from producers. Idea of demand-driven marketplace can be applied to any market.

The real question is how much share demand-driven approach can get? Many customers still prefer the supply-centric world.

<comment><USER2> The real question is, who does a demand-driven approach serve? Businesses spend money on Groupon to get a reliable boost in awareness for a specific period of time that they budgeted for. They don't do it to make Groupon work better for its users.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Businesses that use Groupon as a demand side solution are the ones beating themselves up. Businesses that use Groupon as a supply side solution reap the rewards. Groupons are great for getting rid of excess inventory, but its terrible for recruiting loyal customers, for the reasons mentioned in the article.

Groupon using businesses just need to understand how to effectively fit Groupon in there own business model. Using Groupon as a catch all marketing scheme is not the way to go.

Groupon should work with small businesses and help them understand this instead of marketing them self as the perfect solution for marketing your product/service.

</comment><comment><USER10> The title on the post has been changed to _"Building a Better Groupon"_ , which is much less linkbaity and more in-line with the story.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, good catch. I have updated the submission.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Worse, it treats already loyal customers like shit. Oh great there's a Groupon for my gym. Wish I could take advantage somehow; look how cheap it is! Hmm, look at all these Groupon people overcrowding my machines and classes.

<comment><USER6> You realize that your Gym, not Groupon, decided to issue too many coupons that resulted in the hypothetical crowding situation? That is your Gym's fault.

<comment><USER11> I actually don't know if that's true or not - do businesses set the number of Groupons available by themselves? I doubt it.

<comment><USER12> My understanding is that Groupon allows them to set a limit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The author basically described priceline...didn't he?</comment>


Microsoft's 'RoomAlive' transforms any room into a giant Xbox game - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/5/6912979/microsoft-roomalive-research-projector-system <comment><USER2> Interesting project, but projectors always have the issues that they project shadows as well and unless you have every area filled in a redundant way, you will end up breaking the illusion when you enter the room and project your own shadow. On top of that, I am not sure if there's much to do, game-wise, in such an environment.

EDIT: I'd be more excited with Full Room VR experience, using Kinect devices everywhere to detect your movements, hands and so on.

<comment><USER3> Even more distracting than the shadows would be the fixed perspective. Unless you include some form of head tracking, the immersion will never feel real. Unfortunately, it'll limit one person per room.

Classic example of head tracking: [http://youtu.be/Jd3-eiid- Uw](http://youtu.be/Jd3-eiid-Uw)

<comment><USER4> Using the same idea as 3D projection, you could support multiple people per room, but with reduced frame rate and the requirement that they wear glasses.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe not as a gaming experience. But this could be super cool in the kitchen. Imagine having your recipe or cooking video projected onto the bench or wall and follow you around as you prepare the meal. No more worrying about getting food on your laptop.

<comment><USER6> You realize of course that 'in the kitchen with recipes' is like the Cold Fusion of computers right? Ever since Altair first talked about "your very own microcomputer" there has been a "and you can have all your recipes at your fingertips in the kitchen" meme to go along with it. And it has _never_ happened. Seriously, its like the anti-app or something.

<comment><USER7> It has already happened. My wife uses an ipad rather than a cook-book in the kitchen all the time.

Besides, no well prepared meal is complete without a pic of the completed work uploaded to facebook :-) .

<comment><USER8> Is she cooking from one app/format that could be projected easily? When using a resource like that, I usually cook from a mixture of books, blogs, recipe sites and so on. It would be too difficult to get that info put onto a clearly readable display IMO. Sometimes they're lists, sometimes they're fragments of info in image captions, or in a story.

<comment><USER9> I suspect sound is probably a much better approach. A good speaker + microphone and you can intuitively do things like set 30 minute timers as you put something in the oven. Or just get a quick rehash of the next steps. "Finished kneading bread, now what?"

Also, a single recipe is fairly easy to follow, handling a few a the same time is where a computer could actually be useful.

<comment><USER8> I have posted here before about an app that helps you schedule a set of recipes so that things are ready in sequence. It would show you what can be prepared in advance, what needs to be done just before plating, etc. A recipe Gantt chart.

I could also make use of a touchscreen splashback showing either general entertainment or recipes where I could strike off ingredients or steps as they were completed. Saves having the iPad or a book taking up bench space.

Could have touchscreen in one area and then display with heat-resistant glass behind the cooktop. Maybe in 10 years time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Obvious game killing issues -

Any game that would be fun to play would be too dangerous to sell.

I can't see it narratively being more immersive than a simple computer screen/tv. To much disjoint from things in the room/3D open space would stop that hypnotic state people get when concentrating on a screen.

Applications outside games might be interesting. Commercial venues for interactive stories perhaps.

</comment><comment><USER11> I want that for our Hackerspace. It reminds me of the recent Bret Victor's talk, "Seeing Spaces".

[http://vimeo.com/97903574](http://vimeo.com/97903574)

[http://s3.amazonaws.com/worrydream.com/SeeingSpaces/SeeingSp...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/worrydream.com/SeeingSpaces/SeeingSpaces.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER12> And you only need six projectors, six Kinects, and all light-colored surfaces!

</comment><comment><USER13> How will they handle someone casually looking up/around? I have a projector and sometimes I accidentally walk infront of it, facing the bulb. The light is unpleasant when shone directly into the eyes.

</comment><comment><USER14> Looks like a poor man's CAVE [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_automatic_virtual_environ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_automatic_virtual_environment) for your bedroom. They should have called it the ManCAVE. ;)

</comment><comment><USER15> This doesn't look anywhere near as immersive as VR.

</comment><comment><USER16> This reminds me a black mirror episode!

</comment><comment><USER15> Since when is TheVerge a good source for HN? (just as it's starting to get hated in others places - Reddit - no less)</comment>


How to Adapt to Prison - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/personal-growth/10-ways-to-adapt-to-prison-7e1956904409#.cqzoj773m <comment><USER3> Slightly off-topic, but a massive US prison strike is currently taking place, to protest forced labor and inhumane conditions[0], and most of us probably haven't even heard about it.

This is very problematic, since many of us also know how unjust the US justice system is, especially with the drug war and all, and without public awareness the strikes will accomplish a lot less than they ought to.

So if it's not already in your news feeds, google "prison strike" or just start with the Intercept piece.

[0][https://theintercept.com/2016/09/16/the-largest-prison- strik...](https://theintercept.com/2016/09/16/the-largest-prison-strike-in-u- s-history-enters-its-second-week/)

<comment><USER4> Thanks for sharing this! I heard that is was planned but figure it might not happen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This list is OK, but I think there's a major omission: be ready to fight. If you are ever probed for weakness, you must make it clear that you will not be easy to victimize. You don't have to win, but you have to fight and make it as difficult as you can. It doesn't matter at all what the fight is over. Someone took a scoop of your mashed potatoes? Fight them. Make them regret it as much as you can.

I feel so sorry for anyone who goes into prison who does not understand this.

<comment><USER6> Is this from your own experience or just what you believe to be true? I'm not trying to be rude, but that piece of advice holds much more weight coming from someone that has actually served time.

<comment><USER5> It's not rude. You're absolutely right. Somehow, despite my best efforts, I never went to prison.

But I was obsessed about the possibility for a while, and read a lot of books. The one that made the biggest impression on me was _The Hot House: Life Inside Leavenworth Prison_. In that book, a lifer named Carl Bowles describes why he doesn't have to worry very much, despite being small (like me). Paraphrasing, it was because he never let there be any doubt in anyone's mind that if they tried to hurt him, he'd respond very violently.

That book described in many different ways the importance of willingness to fight in prison. People due for release in a few months would fight and get time added to their sentences for fear of what would happen if they didn't fight.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I clicked on this article because it is how to get along in groups of men.

While prison likely has a high concentration of pathological personalities, the more serious the company you are in, the more it will have collected people who are attracted by power and prestige - the more probable case that you will be dealing with psychopaths.

The ones I've met aren't actually that smart (handwavy estimate is they seem to top out around IQ120), and usually only have one or two blunt but heavy social tools that make them high functioning manipulators. They are enabled by overly trusting, high IQ but socially unsophisticated engineers who are easily bullied.

With violence largely a non-factor in a psycho's toolkit in the startup world (vs. prison), you can learn to anticipate and manage them.

While it can be fun to have the scariest dog in the park, who's just a sweetie to you at home (because all they understand is power), it raises the question of responsibility. You know it's going to do harm, it's just a matter of time, and the question for a real leader is, at what point do you recognize it for what it is and put it down?

If you have ever been to boarding school, summer camp, or worked in a large institution, the difference to prison seems largely symbolic. Different people and rules, yet still, people and rules.

<comment><USER8> TIL ~2 standard deviations above the mean isn't "that smart."

<comment><USER9> And you also learned that the standard deviation on the stanford-binet scale is 15, not 10. :-) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification)

<comment><USER8> (Subtly) edited :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I have always thought a good book (probably a novelty but whatever) would be how to prepare for prison. For example what sort of physical training + psychological training + diet would be optimal. What sort of defense training would you study. Where would you put some if any remaining assets.

For example before going you might want to gain as much weight as possible (who cares about looking attractive). Generally more weight will increase strength regardless if it is fat (although muscle would be better). Or maybe gaining a lot of weight is a bad idea... don't know but I am curious.

<comment><USER11> It exists: [http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/no-weights-no-limits-an- inte...](http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/no-weights-no-limits-an-interview- with-paul-wade.html)

<comment><USER10> This seems to cover a small part of it. Also I don't know much about prison but I assume inmates have access to weights (or maybe that is just a hollywood stereotype that I have picked up). I suppose though while you are in jail if you aren't bailed out you can do weightless training.

I would imagine forearm training would be critical since grappling is so important in self defense. This could be tricky if there are no bars to hang from.

I'm thinking the best training is probably fairly similar to football training... get big, fast, and strong. I'm just not sure gymnastic like training will do that (particularly as you gain weight that sort of training becomes fairly difficult).

Thus from my limited knowledge... I would probably do a ton of power cleans, power presses, and sand bag grabbing. Maybe some farmer walks. Probably no dead lifts while in prison though since that would just sap you and leave you weak for attacks. Maybe deadlifts prior to going in.

<comment><USER11> No, weights were banned in American prisons years ago.

If you can do one-arm pressups and pullups - which Wade's training leads up to - you will be stronger than 99% of people who train with weights anyway.

<comment><USER12> Beating 99% of people who weight train with modified bodyweight exercises is definitely a stretch.

A pushup is equivalent to benching roughly 64% of your body weight. So if we say one armed is similar to benching 128% of your bodyweight... That puts a person in the intermediate level of weight training.

[http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.htm...](http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html)

<comment><USER13> A one handed pushup is much harder than that because of the great difficulty in keeping your body stable. Somebody who can bench twice their bodyweight might still fail a one handed pushup if they haven't trained for it.

<comment><USER11> Exactly. The pressup engages the entire anterior chain. And _no-one cares_ about anyone's bench press 1RM in a fight or indeed any situation outside of the gym - it just isn't a useful kind of strength.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> From outside the US, it's a little disturbing to see these kinds of articles crop up occasionally. That you have enough people going into prison that these articles are almost a 'general life tips' kind of thing.

</comment><comment><USER15> Replace "prison" with "large corporation" and this advice works also applies.

<comment><USER16> I disagree. If you want an easy path through life, then by all means, go with it.

It applies to any hierarchical community that you can't easily quit. It could very well apply to say totalitarian regime. But large corporation, while sometimes being comparable in bureaucracy (and bullshit and politicking) to totalitarian states, you can quit easily without much effect on your life.

In fact, I think this is the basic advantage of capitalist over communist regime. You can be critical to a corporation, at least to an extent. You can take more risks. The stakes are much lower.

<comment><USER17> Wait, what does communism have to do with this?

<comment><USER16> I mean communist regime, like in Eastern Europe, not the ideology. I understand the difference. The point is, in communist regime, it used to be, if you upset some big shot in the communist party, or were just a troublemaker, it went onto your file, it affected your family, and nothing short of emigration could clean that. In other words, there was a central hierarchy in the society that you had to conform to. So the same advice as in the article applies to any such hierarchical regime that affects your entire life.

While corporations in capitalism are also hierarchical, the risk to ruining your life is much less, because you can always change the corporation and start with a clean slate. Your family is not affected (or only very rarely). Even in hierarchical system of corporation, this gives you freedom that is incomparable to being in prison or under totalitarian government.

It's of course up to you if you choose to exercise that freedom.. It may backfire (with bad bosses), but it may also be worth it (with good bosses) and most importantly, it can be lot more fun.

<comment><USER18> "If you upset some big shot in the communist party, or were just a troublemaker, it went onto your file"

In the UK in the 1960s and 1970s upsetting a large company could get you investigated by MI5 and you could go on _their_ files.

See: _The Black Door: Spies, Secret Intelligence and British Prime Ministers_ by Richard Aldrich & Rory Cormac

[Mind you I'd rather have the attention of the Security Service than the Stasi - but the behaviour is similar, treating dissent as insurrection].

<comment><USER19> And in the United States, if too many of your friends were suspected of being communists, etc.

<comment><USER20> While this was bad by US standards, it is in no way comparable to the Stasi or the Gulags.

<comment><USER19> Sure, I was making the comparison to the UK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> #4 I thought prisoners wore uniforms?

<comment><USER21> Might depend on the "class" of prison. For example, at a more local level sometimes people are allowed to serve their time by working all week and spending weekends in prison.

<comment><USER22> That's county jail, not prison, right?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> As someone who has been there I would say this list is spot on. I'd add more about finding constructive uses of time though.

<comment><USER24> What are the possible options, while there?

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Not many of us are likely to need advice on how to fit in, in prison.

Or are we?

<comment><USER26> Unfortunately, if you're stuck in a pathologic environment, this advice sounds pretty applicable.

I've worked for a BigCo where I would definitely recommend this, and some public government sector offices here in Uruguay are unbelievable - <USER2> unfortunately combine decent wages, a special cannot-get-fired provision (you have to do something absurdly bad such as murder) and some extremely pathological behavior from petty leaders.

Lots of people get stuck there, they cannot enter the private sector anymore and they need to "put in time" to be able to retire.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> There is good wisdom here, but the overall theme is something I currently struggle with. The overall theme as I see it is listen more than you talk, be careful and mindful, because everyone is out to get you.

While there is wisdom in this, You can also come across as someone who never shares ideas. Collaboration in business is vital, and it's important to foster an environment where collaboration is open and it's OK to fail and figure out how to do better. If you're a person that hangs on the periphery and never goes out on a limb, it's hard to lead that way or foster an environment of healthy teamwork.

<comment><USER27> I'm actually interested in this topic, and seeking other perspectives on how to look at this. I've been down voted here to the point that many people seem to think I'm adding nothing to the conversation, or trolling. I'm not. If you disagree with what I'm saying here or think I'm on the wrong track, I'd be interested in hearing where you think my comments went awry.

<comment><AUTHOR> You appear to be thinking that he is using prison as a metaphor when he is writing about actual prison. I don't know how much idea sharing and healthy teamwork are valued there.</comment></comment></comment>


Adobe CSS Animation Editor demo (HTML5) - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKaJ6jEPXGE

<comment><USER2> Awesome.

Can we create banners in HTML5 and start hating on HTML5 already?

<comment><USER3> That's right. HTML has finally caught up with what Flash has been capable of for many years. It's not the technology, it's how people use it. The Flash Player I could easily turn off, HTML5 I can't. The ad industry can't wait to start pushing HTML5 ads.

<comment><USER4> Do people really not remember the time when adverts were animated GIFs?

Adverts were blocked before Flash, non-Flash ads are being blocked right now by various means, and they will continue to be blocked in the glorious HTML5-ad supported future.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why use Serverless to build webapps - <AUTHOR> Hi HN I would love to get an input on why use serverless to build webapps compared to traditional frameworks such as Django,Flask,ExpressJS and etc <comment><USER2> I've decided to go Serverless when implementing a search functionality for my personal blog recently [1].

Reasons were security (no need to maintain a custom box, install patches etc.) and cost. With the low request volume I expect for this API, Serverless is essentially for free or a few cents. It definitely wouldn't be cheaper for a constant significant load in which case running your own VM will be more cost- efficient.

Serverless doesn't necessarily mean you can't use your traditional frameworks. E.g. I'm using JAX-RS (I'm a Java guy) for my search. This app is compiled into a native binary via Quarkus and GraalVM, so it starts up fast enough, also cold starts are no problem.

Re vendor lock-in mentioned by other commenters, that's not necessarily true either. My app is portable, I can deploy it to Lambda (via the API Gateway proxy integration) or as a regular app e.g. in a container running everywhere. Also "serverless" doesn't imply Faas (functions); there's container-based serverless like Knative, where you deploy your services as a container bound to some HTTP port. I.e. no lock-in at all, and you still have the benefits of serverless like auto-scaling, A/B testing, per-per-request etc.

[1] [https://www.morling.dev/blog/how-i-built-a-serverless- search...](https://www.morling.dev/blog/how-i-built-a-serverless-search-for- my-blog/)

</comment><comment><USER3> "serverless" is used to describe a new type of cloud infrastructure you can run your apps (Django, Flask, Express) so that they scale automatically and charge only per request, never for idle, at ~$0.000001 per request.

The candid reason developers and Fortune 500s use serverless cloud infrastructure is because they want to build more and manage less.

The "Serverless Framework" is a developer tool that helps developers deploy their apps to serverless cloud infrastructure, without having to be an expert in that type of infrastructure. It makes it easy for developers to deploy Django, Flask, Express apps so that they auto-scale and pay only per request, never for idle.

Here is how you can deploy Express.js in seconds to serverless infrastructure:

[https://github.com/serverless- components/express](https://github.com/serverless-components/express)

</comment><comment><USER4> If possible, I will always go with cheap servers on digital ocean/linode. Don't buy any cost-saving marketing gig from cloud vendors. Serverless could work for you if your workload is unpredictable. But it makes everything complicated (plus vendor-lock-in). (One more thing, the framework you mentioned can be used with serverless)

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree but do you think I'll get same features when going with elastic beanstalk or heroku

</comment></comment><comment> wh-uws In addition to the answers posted already lets clear up what seems to be a bit of confusion in the question.

if you google serverless you'll find 2 seperate things.

1\. a general name and concept for a user only having to worry about the services they deploy at the application layer (without having to worry about setting up servers and such behind it)

2\. a framework for generalizing how to package up serverless functions.

(the name overload is super confusing took me a while when I wanted to setup 1)

So you question is comparing apples to oranges.

In that you can use serverless framework to deploy Django,Flask,ExpressJS and etc applications to serverless systems i.e. AWS Lambda.

for instance I have 2 services I use basically every day that are built on this

[https://github.com/awslabs/aws-serverless- express](https://github.com/awslabs/aws-serverless-express)

so I use serverless framework to deploy nodejs/express applications

</comment><comment><USER5> ==== Advantages of Serverless:

\- Stability: You're only deploying parts of the backend at a time, which reduces chances of breaking the entire application.

\- Scaling: You can have parts of your backend scale with use, rather than scaling the entire monolithic backend.

\- Cost: Serverless is surprisingly cheap these days, compared to hosting a full PHP/Python server.

==== Disadvantages of Serverless:

\- Complexity: Serverless a.k.a "micro services", are basically tiny servers. This adds a bit of complexity, with authentication, latency etc. As it's not a single monolithic server anymore.

Many other drawbacks are inherently related to the added complexity.

In my experience it's worth trying, but if you're a one-man team then; a monolithic server is much easier/faster to deploy, test, and iterate on.

<comment><USER6> I'd add to the disadvantages:

* Cold start time may hurt your latency

* Max timeout which makes serverless a non-option for long-running processes

</comment></comment><comment> ciaran-ifelse It would cost less starting out compared to your own server, you may only have to pay per function call. Whereas you would have to pay for server space from the start even if no one is using your product.

A framework may be overkill if all you want to do is run a function when something in your database changes. Firebase is a good example of this, you can trigger functions when a document changes.

Easy to deploy, reliable and maintainable.

<comment><USER7> When did a vps with a cookie cutter vm become particularly hard though? You can get one for $5/mo, I always found digital ocean/linode tutorials to be really good.</comment></comment>


Longevity Fund Raises $22M to Support Anti-Aging Therapies - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/longevity-fund-raises-22-million-to-support-anti-aging-therapies-1503401400 <comment><USER2> Hi! This is Laura - I'd love to involve the HN community more in aging-related things of a technical nature. If you're interested in the field, and want to talk or work on a project, drop a line to email@example.com (goes direct to personal email).

<comment><USER3> Congrats! I'm wondering - "aging" is a pretty broad area, and I haven't seen that many startups go after that aging in particular (though you certainly have more knowledge of up and coming work in that respect. Would "diseases of age" also fall under your intended field?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This link isn't behind a paywall: [https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/22/this-23-year-old-just- clos...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/22/this-23-year-old-just-closed-her- second-fund-which-is-focused-on-aging-with-22-million/)</comment>


Ask HN: Why are there open-source software licenses? - <AUTHOR> Would we be worse off if there weren't any? <comment><USER2> So that the closed source people can't copy open source and sell them as their products and if they do then open source people have the "legal tool" aka the license to tackle them legally.

</comment><comment><USER3> then it would simply mean it is not open. When someone creates something, by default it's "closed" and it's their property. If you take that code and use it when there's no permission, that's stealing. If you want to "open" up your code so anyone can use it, you should explicitly tell people they can take it for free. Meet license.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sentences are creations. Does this mean every sentence we write on HN or say to each other by default is closed and needs a license?

<comment><USER4> Actually yes, but so most sites has some legalese in the TOS and there is also fair use.

IANAL. TINLA. You can probably quote a comment from one HN user, but if you copy all the comments from one "famous" user of HN and write a book with them, then you'll probably get some copyright problems.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to assemble a Development Team to build-out my (SaaS) project? - <AUTHOR>

I have my big idea, but I need help. I'm a decent coder, I coded my company's web-based accounting system & HR management platform...but it took me three years to complete. My big idea would be 2-3 times the size of that system and consist of several sub-systems. I've modeled the system structure, I know I need help to roll it out with any speed. I looked into applying to YC, but I'm a single founder & I'm a father in Florida with a 2 month old and a 2 year old, I can't move to the Bay Area for any significant amount of time.
I've hired freelancers over the years, never with great results (which is why I started learning to code in the first place). I figure I need a team of 2 to 4 developers and an experienced project manager. I don't have the deepest pockets. Which leads me to my questions:
- How do I build a development team?
- What are my expected personnel costs? Are there good developers to be had on a per project pay basis (assuming yes, where do I find them)?
- What would be an appealing pay offer/scheme(s) for good developers?
BTW - PHP is the language I know best and my current system is built on Joomla. <comment><USER2> Look for a technical co-founder. A good developer would get to a minimum viable product quickly - probably in a fraction of the time you are estimating for the overall project. Find someone who will buy into your product and work for equity.

Don't let your existing programming skills restrict who you hire or the technical spec for the new product - you should concentrate on the marketing and sales end so that you have eager customers waiting for that MVP

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks bdfh42, I hesitated to list the language and platform I used, you are right & I am open to whatever language is deemed best. I'd love to find a co- founder, but I am in Southwest Florida, not the hottest of hot spots for whip- smart techies. Any advice on where/how I find someone like that?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Okay, I've spent the night considering what the MVP is, it will obviously still be tweaked, but I have a good base model & know my core valuation(s). Finding the right technical co-founder is the big question. I appreciate the offers of direct contact in this thread, but I think I need to get a good handle on how I select the right co-founder and what an appealing offer would be.

Has anybody ever searched for a tech co-founder? All the stories of founders finding each other I read seem to be magical, per-destined connections. I don't go to tech conferences, and I can't wait for the right one to come along (I'm on the bad side of 40).

Also, is an NDA standard practice in discussions with founder prospects?

</comment><comment><USER3> I am in FL also and am well networked in the development community, if you would like to contact me, I may be able to point you in the right direction. My contact info is in my profile here in HN. It's worth a chat to network at the least.

</comment><comment><USER4> Before investing lots of time and resources for this project , wouldn't it will be better to verify the idea first by MVP?

MVP you can easily create in 2-3 months for a big project.

<comment><AUTHOR> When you say MVP, do you mean a tech professional or is MVP some tool I am not aware of?

<comment><USER5> My view of MVP and agile development. Create a list of every feature your super system is going to offer this is called the product backlog. Then rank them in order of value to the customer. Then validate that rank with some early adopters customers. Then draw a line what is the minimum amount that makes the system useful to a set of customers. Now you have version .5. Get it in front of people get more feature requests/changes from customers now re- order the list taking the new changes and new features. Each release should be 2 weeks to month long. The key is that regardless of your insight in the market your opinion has lots of assumptions in them and the only people's opinions that really matter are paying customers so get it infront of them as early as possible.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, this is very wise advice. I have so many features and revenue sources bouncing around in my head, this is the path I need to follow. I have at least one early adopter I can call on, I'm sure I can get a few more with the right deal.

<comment><USER6> MVP = Minimum Viable Product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Figure out how to create the first version with 1-2 people in 3-4 months. Figure out the core value proposition, create _just_ that in the most elegantly simple way possible.

Launch it, get feedback, iterate until the end of time.

</comment><comment><USER7> You may want to look at www.cloudsuites.com This can instantly develop complete stack web applications based on your inputs and host it in the cloud.

</comment><comment><USER8> I would be interested in hearing more. If you want to shoot me an email with details on what you need, we could start discussing some possibilities.

</comment><comment><USER5> Also you might want to check out the business model canvas. It's a simplified version of a business plan that cuts to the core information.

</comment><comment><USER5> I might be able to help email me with details. Email in profile.

</comment><comment><USER9> Where in Florida are you?

<comment><AUTHOR> Venice

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Firstly go buy Steve Blank's "The startup owners manual".

Secondly, you have a big idea, but what is the one thing that above all else will totally convince everyone to buy? Web-based HR for SMEs? Well its the recruitment system that everyone fusses over.

Build that, in 1 month, with just a OpenID login and stripe integration.

If you cannot have 2 customers on there by June 30 giving you cash, its not a winner. Pivot.

Got 2 customers? Great. Get on AngelList and _then_ you can afford to hire developers, be picky, and still not risk the roof over your kids head.

You are setting yourself up to spend a lot of money that should go on children's clothes and holidays, and throw it in a hole. It does sound a lot like you have made up your mind and want some justification. DOes your partner support this? Please read the post recently about 40,000 USD and 100 USD.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you most definitely do not have to build it all before it works.

And if you want to hire people or get funding, a working system with paying customers makes that orders of magnitude easier. \- <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Blank>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your input, I'll have to pick that book up. I read that 40,000/100 post a day or two ago, definitely worth the read, but it doesn't fit my scenario. My company has been in the industry for over a decade, I've been working in the industry for nearly 20 years. I have paying customers who use the system I built and would pay more for the system I am proposing. A company that is offering just 1/4 of the SaaS system I want to build is charging $1,000 - $5,000 a month per client.

I also own a few websites that are in the industry, one is 1st page in Google for most the key words/phrases. I can get the traffic. I have a database of tens of thousands of current users that would be easily assimilated into the new system. Someone is going to build this system or one like it eventually, the need is there.

<comment><USER11> I have 5 months of free time and nothing (important) to work on so if you would consider working with someone as partner and not just someone you would pay to complete the project email me at firstname.lastname@example.com

btw You should add email to your profile.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I would be interested in hearing more too. Shoot me an email.</comment>


Show HN: Newtiny - Forget Bookmarking and Record your whole Web History - <AUTHOR>

Few days ago I got frustrated by inability to search a web page which I had visited few months ago. Bookmarking services are great, but it always happens that we forget to bookmark something or don't find something important at the moment only to realize after few days that we should've. Even browsers' web history can go back only few weeks or months and if our system crashes or we switch to some other, it's all gone.
So, I thought why not record my whole web history, put it up in the cloud and make it easily searchable from anywhere.
http://newtiny.com
Note: Yesterday, I had put up the link on HN and few of the users raised the concerns regarding lack of a 'Privacy Policy'. Now, I've added that. I thank you everyone for a great response to the service.
'Newtiny keeps all your data private and accessible only to you'
I also added ability to delete all your information and account from Newtiny. You can leave anytime if you feel it's not for you. <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable - <http://newtiny.com></comment>


CloudCommerce Inc. (Otcpk: CLWD) Seeing a Swarm of Volume in Recent Weeks - <AUTHOR> https://stockifymedia.com/cloudcommerce-inc-otcpk-clwd-seeing-a-swarm-of-volume-in-recent-weeks/ <comment><USER2> Great article! The above comment has it all wrong.

Article date is june 30, stock price was .008 on june 30. On July 6th CLWD hit .0162 high.

The piece was both informative about CLWD operations regarding issuance, deloitte feature, new client and more. Overall good summary of their recent operations.

</comment><comment><USER3> Old article. Stock was at .08 a week ago and is now 0.01. The article mentions only major new client in Arizona, which is having a massive surge of C-19. revenue is only 1 million. ppppppppppppppppppft hard pass</comment>


Depixelizing Pixel Art - <AUTHOR> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/multi_comparison.html <comment><USER3> This is a pretty old paper, but I hadn't seen the live demo. That's pretty cool.

A problem with this algorithm is that it's pretty slow. It would be hard to use it for real time scaling.

I think that it's pretty cool though for any precalculated conversion to vector format. It would also be pretty cool if there were software that allowed you to create a pixel art image with a live preview in this format and the ability to export into a vector format.

One of the benefits of pixel art IMO is that it's got a pretty distinct style and its simplicity and restrictions means it's easy to be aware of composition where if you are given an unrestricted canvas that freedom can make it hard to know where to start. If you are given a 8x8 pixel grid to indicate "happy" there's only so many ways to do it, a symbolic heart, a little smiley face, etc. Given a whole sheet of paper you'll have more difficulty.

With the high res displays, there's more to consider than just the upscaling of old programs, the fact is people (especially indie game devs) still want to work with pixel art, and the number of titles with the term "8-bit" in their name that have come out recently. Part of that's because it's in vogue now, but a big part of it is simply that a poor artist can make a passable 24x24 sprite.

But it's still a shame that on high res displays they end up looking like a blocky mess. If you had a program that let you author your sprites under the same conditions, but let you preview an upscaled version and left you with a vector image (or high res texture with mip maps) you can make use of the fidelity while maintaining the simplicity. I think that would be cool.

<comment><USER4> _A problem with this algorithm is that it 's pretty slow. It would be hard to use it for real time scaling._

Even if it's too slow for realtime on today's hardware, I'd _love_ to see some prerendered sample videos.

<comment> josh-wrale Here's a video: [https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart...](https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/video_multi_comparison_4x_h264.mp4)

<comment><USER5> Am I crazy for preferring the one on the left (nearest-neighbour)? The other two really mess up certain details such as the point numbers, the stem of the fruits and pokey's eyes.

They also tend to cause a very subtle distortion of the outlines of foreground sprites as they move over the background.

<comment><USER6> No, you aren't. I prefer nearest-neighbor too, I think it preserves the "spirit" of the game. Generally speaking, I prefer it for any kind of "pixel art".

That said, those algorithms are impressive, and I can see why someone could prefer them over a simple nn.

<comment><USER7> > I think it preserves the "spirit" of the game.

The art-direction of games from this era wasn't done with the intention that these games would be played on pixel-perfect computer monitors, though. The art was designed and tested for CRT TVs, which would generally give you something like [http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/muddi900/LTTP3xNTSC...](http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/muddi900/LTTP3xNTSC.png), or even [http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Kzdww8T9fUA/TRplyGIj6PI/AAAAAAAAAt...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Kzdww8T9fUA/TRplyGIj6PI/AAAAAAAAAtA/jylLsrv3b0I/s1600/CRT%252BNTSC- RGB.png)

<comment> josh-wrale This reminds me of staring at those tiny screenshots on the back of NES boxes with sweaty palms as a six year old.. lol.. Pixel art was not yet embraced as an art form, I guess. (well, not by the adults)

edit: proof: [https://www.google.com/search?q=nes+box+back&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=nes+box+back&tbm=isch)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I wish they would use this in Windows 8. As far as I can tell, their scaling algorithm for 4k displays is: scale up 2x using nearest neighbor, then randomly drop pixels to get back to 125% or 150%. The result is horrifyingly bad. Not just kind of bad, but unusably bad. (Adding insult to injury, they ClearType the text _before_ scaling.)

<comment><USER9> While something similar would probably be better, this is heavily optimized for pixel artwork. Lots of curves, shading, and most importantly - <USER2> colors. UI is generally much straighter, less shaded, with far more colors.

Here's an example of UI that's scaled with potrace (a similar algorithm): [http://i.imgur.com/jDq4M7e.png](http://i.imgur.com/jDq4M7e.png) (left side is the converted side, right side is nearest-neighbor. Top is 3x, bottom is 2x)

That's with the highest amount of colors/depth that potrace allows. On an i7 processor, it takes a LONG time to compute all of that. Each icon is no longer just a couple hundred pixels, it's a couple hundred vector paths. Even rendering it takes a number of seconds to refresh the screen in inkscape.

<comment><USER10> 1\. That looks awful.

2\. We just need vector-based icons already.

<comment><USER11> I think the ideal would be something similar to fonts: there's the vector definition for big sizes, and optional pixel-perfect definition for small sizes, because rendering vectors on very small sizes (16x16, 32x32) might look worse than hand-crafted pixel work.

<comment><USER12> These days, font rendering does not often rely on bitmaps, even at small sizes. Instead, they typically use hinting and subpixel rendering. I would love to see these effective techniques applied to vector graphics too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> hq4x looks better (IMHO), sadly the website is offline (default blank wordpress site): [http://hiend3d.com/hq4x.html](http://hiend3d.com/hq4x.html)

backup on archive.org: [https://web.archive.org/web/20120630044334/http://www.hiend3...](https://web.archive.org/web/20120630044334/http://www.hiend3d.com/demos.html)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hqx](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hqx)

Source: [https://code.google.com/p/hqx/source/browse/trunk/src/hq4x.c](https://code.google.com/p/hqx/source/browse/trunk/src/hq4x.c)

<comment><USER14> Only if you look at the first ones. All of Boo, Dolphin, all of SoM, Invaders, Golden Axe, Windows assets and Lost Vikings look great and have vastly reduced artifacts compared to hqx. Also, according to the paper abstract[0], it outputs vector, not scaled up bitmap.

[0]: [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/)

<comment><USER15> I agreed with you, but then I realized they're representing hqx deceptively.

There was a video posted here, with them rendered _at the same resolution_ side by side.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7307975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7307975)

It's really a matter of taste in this video.

<comment><USER16> > they're representing hqx deceptively.

A big difference in the techniques is that hq4x is a fix-rate upscaling, whereas Microsoft's can handle arbitrary target resolutions. At the same rez, they are pretty equivalent. But, MS has the option to go higher. HQ8x has not yet been developed. I doubt that HQ(arbitrary)x is possible without completely changing the algorithm.

<comment><USER15> I agree, that's huge advantage. That's why I said it was a _deceptive_ representation, but not an invalid one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The issue with depixelizing pixel art is that you need an AI that can identify semantically what the features in the sprite are. When you look at Mario you know you're looking at a stout little man with a hat, you can identify his eyes, ears, nose, hair, hat, moustache, shirt, gloves, overalls and shoes. Given that knowledge, if I were to depixelize Mario's sprite, I'll know the rough shape of his shoes and where the shading should go and what shape it should have, i.e. I can reason what the 3D shape is and how the 2D shape was derived from that. I'll also be able to identify which lines were put there to make sure separate elements can be legible and not make those thicker than needed. Or that his eyes blend with his hat simply because there aren't enough pixels to make them separate.

For simple shapes, like the background, their algorithm works really well, but for complex objects it fails, because it distorts details that were put in with very careful thought and completely depend on the resolution. Such small sprites rely a lot on being looked at by someone who can identify semantically what they're looking at, and any really successful depixelization solution will need to be able to understand what basic shapes the sprite is made of based on what it's supposed to represent.

<comment><USER18> I've been thinking about doing something like this. Compress images down to half resolution, then train a neural network to blow it back up and guess the pixels as accurately as possible.

<comment><USER19> There has been a neural network scaler called NNEDI3 available as a plugin for avisynth for a few years. It was trained in exactly the way you are talking about and does an amazing job at both deinterlacing and upscaling video.

It does a great job of scaling pixel art too. I'm kinda surprised it hasn't been implemented in any emulator. With the newer opencl implantation it is finally able to run in real-time.

[http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=46792](http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=46792)

<comment><USER18> Whoa, that's pretty good.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A C++ LGPL implementation of this has been as been developed as part of last year Inkscape GSoC and is available as a standalone library: [https://launchpad.net/libdepixelize](https://launchpad.net/libdepixelize)

It will be released in the next Inkscape major version, expected soon :)

<comment><USER21> Perfect! Thanks for the link. I want to run this over the classic SimCity tile set (and the additional ones in the add-on graphics sets like the moon base, etc), to generate high resolution pixel and vector tiles for the JavaScript browser based version of Micropolis (GPL SimCity).

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The authors of this paper also have other amazing image processing/optimization algorithms. Eg: Deblurring, Optimizing Color Consistency, Content-aware Automatic Photo Enhancement, Object Discovery and Segmentation in Internet Images and more:

Dani Lischinski's page: [http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~danix/](http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~danix/)

Johannes Kopf page: [http://johanneskopf.de/](http://johanneskopf.de/)

<comment><USER23> Wow, the content-aware downscaling seems very useful!

[http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/downscali...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/downscaling/)

> _This paper introduces a novel content-adaptive image downscaling method. > The key idea is to optimize the shape and locations of the downsampling > kernels to better align with local image features. [...] Besides natural > images, our algorithm is also effective for creating pixel art images from > vector graphics inputs, due to its ability to keep linear features sharp and > connected._

IIRC, this is one of the major reasons that vector graphics based icons have not taken off.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Sometimes the Vector Magic results are truly magical; striking poses become even more striking when the figure is reduced to a collection of simpler shapes.

<comment><USER25> I like a lot of VectorMagic results... Very abstract art!

<comment><USER26> Yeah, I really like the VM ones - particularly how the space invader turns into a StarTrek badge and the Bombermans(men?).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I thought this looked familiar! It is from 2011 [https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart...](https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/)

</comment><comment><USER28> But the blocky versions actually look better than vectorized ones. Most of the vectorized sprites look hideous with the exception of Boo and dolphin.

<comment><USER29> Count me as another one who likes the pixel aesthetic. The title made me ask myself "why would you want to do this?"

(I also loathe most forms of antialiasing, including _Clear_ Type, so that might have something to do with it... I like sharp, clearly contrasted edges, including pixel edges.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> From when this first came out:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2601347](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2601347)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2578706](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2578706)

</comment><comment> rkuykendall-com Does anyone know where I can find an implementation of this? I can't even figure out what to call it. They just refer to it as "our method."

<comment><USER31> Here's a pure Python implementation: [https://github.com/jerith/depixel](https://github.com/jerith/depixel)

<comment> rkuykendall-com Thanks!

See? Even he doesn't know what to call it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I wonder why they all fall down on Peach and Peach 2? None of them look nearly as good (to me) as bicubic.

<comment><USER33> I think it comes down to your point of focus. With peach and peach 2, The eyes change shape quite a bit. Humans notice that much more than other aspects.

In general, I think the "ours" method could benefit by moving the boundaries between colours in and out until they get an average brightness match with the similar area in the nearest neighbour version. A lot of the "ours" images have a higher proportion of black.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Boo is the best example of 'ours'. Looks amazing.

<comment><USER35> I think bower looks badass! [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/results_ours/smw_bowser_ours_8x.png)

</comment></comment><comment> josh-wrale I chose to embrace the Pixels, myself: [http://vulariter.wordpress.com/tag/jewel- punk/](http://vulariter.wordpress.com/tag/jewel-punk/)

</comment><comment><USER36> I'm amazed to find that no one has mentioned that ScummVM has implemented some of these algorithms for years and they work pretty nice with the classical games.

<comment><USER37> and snes emulators ...10 years ago?

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Looks like a normalized version of the EPX algorithm.

</comment><comment><USER39> HQ4X and Ours are the clear winners if you _must_ resample like this; the downsides are that HQ4X occasionally has jaggies and Ours makes makes a lot of fine details look "blobby".

The Vector Magic results reminded me a lot of this: [http://www.cowboybooks.com.au/html/acidtrip1.html](http://www.cowboybooks.com.au/html/acidtrip1.html)

<comment><USER40> Regarding HQ4X, they used the algorithm to create 4X image but used Nearest neighbor to create 8X and 16X images. I think doing HQ4X two times would have resulted into a better 16X images without jags.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I did a GPU version in 2012 for my course project. For small size sprite, it runs roughly the same or even slower than the original paper. Anyone interested in finishing this and maybe try this on realtime emulator? [http://yzhwang.github.io/depixelization/](http://yzhwang.github.io/depixelization/)

</comment><comment><USER42> Kind of ironic that MSR is using an unregistered version of PhotoZoom.

</comment><comment><USER43> I think the most interesting aspect of this is the internal shading. I haven't seen any other algorithm that manages that while maintaining sharp edges overall.

I imagine it would end up with pretty weird results though when a sprite was on top of a background that with similar enough colors to trigger the shading detection at its edges.

</comment><comment><USER44> I must be a luddite, I prefer my pixilation like my soup: chunky :)

</comment><comment><USER45> to me, hq4x looks better every time.

<comment><USER46> I think it depends on what your end goal is. Are you trying to scale and hide the pixel-ness of the original? The "ours" does pretty darn well, especially if you look at the Boo example as mentioned above.

However, if you're looking at in the case of an SNES emulator or something.. then hq4x seems like the best choice. It keeps true to the original pixel art, while appearing significantly better.

<comment><USER47> Linked earlier:

Video of Ours vs HQ4X. Ours seems to have a slight advantage to my eyes, admittedly it is a personal preference. Text has a distinct advantage on HQ4X but Mario and Yoshi look better even if less "accurate". [https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart...](https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/video_multi_comparison_4x_h264.mp4)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I wrote an implementation of this in common lisp when they published it:

[http://dev.crazyrobot.net/2011/07/12/pixelart-to- vector/](http://dev.crazyrobot.net/2011/07/12/pixelart-to-vector/)

</comment><comment><USER49> Technology almost caught up with CSI.

<comment><USER50> There is a technique that might actually be able to do this called compressed sensing[1] that I first heard about it in a Wired article from several years ago[2]. The technique allows reconstructing images, music, etc. by sampling a portion of the original and applying an algorithm that reconstructs the missing information and is apparently used in MRI image processing to get by with shorter scans. Researchers from Rice University constructed a camera with only a single pixel image sensor that, using this technique, produced legible images with as little as a 2% sampling of the final image resolution, although more complex images required 10-20% or more[3]. I don't see why this technique couldn't be used to take already good quality images and "enhance" areas of them like in CSI.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_sensing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_sensing) [2] [http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/02/ff_algorithm/](http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/02/ff_algorithm/) [3] [http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera](http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Amazing image zoom algorithm, t creates a hires version of a low res image. I would love to see this image zoom feature implemented the in ImageMagick.

</comment><comment><USER51> The Space Invaders "ours" were very impressive. The text was always really good too. The algorithm works well on more regular shapes.

</comment><comment><USER52> It would be interesting to see a pixelart/emulator scaler that was temporally aware - that is, able to use context from near or all relevant sprite frames to get additional detail/context. This would require a compositing emulator, as some others have discussed, but I could see it producing notably superior results, given it would have much more source data to work with.

</comment><comment><USER53> Is there no 8x or 16x version of hq4x? I thought you can use it to get full HD resolution from 320x240 (in realtime using GLSL shader).

</comment><comment><USER54> Is there a paper or code associated with this?

<comment><USER49> [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/)

<comment><USER55> Which also has the original HN discussions

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2673271](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2673271)

and links to +1000 day old threads:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2601347](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2601347)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2578706](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2578706)

yet those space invaders still haunt me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Something related that I stumbled upon some time ago (submitted to HN, got one upvote): [http://gpuhacks.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/signed-distance- fie...](http://gpuhacks.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/signed-distance-field- rendering-of-color-bit-planes/)

</comment><comment><USER57> Are there any emulators that support this?

<comment><USER58> Yay, tons of.. at least with the algo's they compare their stuff to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> I needed some depixelation software for some graphics awhile back, so I threw together a quick program that depixelates using various technologies.

[https://github.com/kstenerud/depixelate](https://github.com/kstenerud/depixelate)

So far it supports HQX, XBRZ, and Scale2x.

</comment><comment><USER60> Proper Video here :- [https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart...](https://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/supplementary/video_multi_comparison_4x_h264.mp4)

</comment><comment><USER61> Am I the only one who prefers the Vector Magic versions? They're like mini Picassos.

</comment><comment><USER62> Here's the home page: [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/people/kopf/pixelart/)

</comment><comment><USER63> It actually looks like as if you took the polylines from EPX and used the points as the CVs for a biquadratic or bicubic interpolating spline (e.g. Catmull-Rom), you'd be very close to their result already.

</comment><comment><USER64> I think hq4x is the best. Microsoft's curves too much - and while it can look good/stylized for some pieces, it's ultimately inaccurate and warps many of the pieces from their original form.

</comment><comment><USER65> Ctr+f "Invader 1" and choose the Vector Magic version. Star Trek!

</comment><comment><USER66> Funny how I don't remember those vikings to be so low-detail and tiny.

</comment><comment><USER67> Todo: Blend hq4x and the kopf techniques in a post processing step.

</comment><comment><USER68> The Secret of Mana ones made my eyes leak, not gonna lie. Awesome graphics technology update not withstanding, that game was an integral part of my teenage years.

</comment><comment><USER69> Enhance! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHepKd38pr0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHepKd38pr0)

</comment><comment><USER70> I have a hard time believing the use of Nintendo IP in this case (big corporation-backed research lab) falls under Fair Use.

</comment><comment><USER71> Looks great :) Makes me a bit less tense about the appearance of older programs in the 4k+ display future.

<comment><USER72> This would be awesome if it was available as a scaler for high-DPI screens and old apps. Or even bundled into televisions for upscaling.

The paper does note that it is designed for hand-edited pixel art, where every different coloured pixel is treated as significant. So I wonder how it behaves when scaling photos?

(Edit: the paper does note that it doesn't do well on anti-aliased graphics...)

<comment><USER53> Televisions have upscale algorithms. But nothing like this. But they don't need anything like this because they don't scale pixle art with sharp borders and very low resolution. They scale video footage (which one could say is "anti-aliased") with about 640x480 resolution.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> actually running the hqx algo on the art and then throwing it through ANY vectorisation engine with a slight roundness comes on top of any of these.

And Microsoft is not really being fair to Vector Magic here, there's a ton of settings there to improve that rendering depending on what you want...

</comment><comment><USER74> Doesn't work well with geometric objects. Look at the swords, shields, the letter 'A'.

</comment><comment><USER75> They forgot natural neighbour interpolation... Should show better results then their research ;)

</comment><comment><USER76> Well I guess it's retro week again on HN... Better check my bookmarks from 3 years ago...

</comment><comment><USER77> This seems pretty awesome. Can someone please tell me where this could be useful?

</comment><comment><USER78> The 'ours' filter (I guess it's the one from MS) is mind-blowing.

</comment><comment><USER79> At first I thought this was a live JS-based demo. That would have been amazing.

</comment><comment><USER80> Are there any ruby libraries that would depixel an image in a similar fashion?

</comment><comment><USER81> I just learned that my favorite depixelizer is hq4x

</comment><comment><USER82> This is pretty amazing of a demo.

</comment><comment><USER83> Just awesome.

</comment><comment><USER84> amazing.

</comment><comment><USER85> I can't believe noone linked this so far. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uoM5kfZIQ0&hd=1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uoM5kfZIQ0&hd=1)

<comment><USER53> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMIHNiR3CP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMIHNiR3CP8) ;)</comment></comment>