Do you read HackerNews all day and never actually do anything? - <AUTHOR> I'm sure there are many of us out there.  I have a good eye for usability, proficient enough with HTML5/CSS3+jquery, have TONS of ideas (some of which I'm pretty convinced are good, maybe even good enough for YC) but it seems like every day I just sit around and read HN.  Something about reading other people's opinions, success stories and failures makes me sort of feel like I'm "in the game" even though I'm not actually DOING anything.  It's terrible.  I guess what I'm wondering is: has anyone else gone through this, did you eventually do something real, and how? <comment><USER2> Well, I'm working on something real right now. It's a web application that works now but it's a total hack. I want to actually make it into something usable by others so a couple days ago I black holed Reddit in /etc/hosts. It worked so well I'm considering the same for Hacker News, too.

There's the comment by "AgentConundrum" who argues that any method of limiting access to an addiction such as HN can be circumvented -- the simple truth is that you can't outsmart yourself. However, I see it differently.

When I open a browser window and click the Reddit bookmark, it gives me an error. While I'm staring at that error message, my higher thought processes have a chance to kick in and argue about what to do next. I think, "Editing my hosts file would be an admission of defeat. I'm better than that."

It's like the "brush your teeth" diet. You know, the one where you brush your teeth after you've had enough to eat. Whenever you want to have a snack, you think, "I can't... I just brushed my teeth. Snacking would undo my progress with dental hygeine."

Both of these tricks are flat-out illogical. A hypothetical rational person would not be affected by these tricks. However, if you were a hypothetical rational person, you wouldn't need to change your behavior in the first place.

<comment><USER3> "Brush your teeth" never worked me. I'd get hungry and eat anyway. Two servings of whey protein powder a day, on the other hand, completely nukes my interest in snacks.

As for HN and such, I find my interest waxes and wanes. I definitely have days where it's a big distraction, particularly when I'm waiting 10 seconds for something to compile and come back ten minutes later. Then there are days when I'm too focused on coding, marketing or whatever I'm doing for it to be a big distraction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> HN should put a little entrepreneur badge next to your name for having shipped a product. That would motivate some people.

<comment><USER5> It could make a psychological difference by putting a shame/pride/credibility/game achievement effect in place. I'd put it in "feature requests" here and see what pg thinks--he is definitely interested in keeping the HN addiction in check for YC companies too.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363>

In terms of an easy implementation, it could be something users self-manage on the honor system, and perhaps a "ship" icon could link to the product if applicable.

<comment><USER5> I took the liberty of submitting the feature request here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1918772>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There was a story recently on HN about a guy who splits his work hours into 30 minutes of work and 30 minutes of distraction. It turned out to work quite well for him. I guess I'm almost doing the same, spending most of my "distraction" time on HN.

There's a good trick however if you want to stop doing that: work with someone else, with each one being able to look at the other's monitor. Even better: do that with people you actually hired. I can guarantee you won't be spending any minute of your time procrastinating.

<comment><USER7> _There was a story recently on HN about a guy who splits his work hours into 30 minutes of work and 30 minutes of distraction_

<http://chetansurpur.com/blog/2010/11/magic-work-cycle.html>

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Simple hack: 2 computers, one for work and one for the internet. Different workstations, preferably in different rooms.

It's a lot harder to get up off your ass than to hit alt-tab.

Harness that laziness to your advantage.

<comment><USER9> Cheaper hack if you can't afford two computers. Two seats. I don't work when sitting in my bedroom, but when I sit at my living room table I only work.

<comment><USER10> This. Also do not use wifi.

If I need to concentrate, I physically unplug my notebook from the net (my only connection is ethernet cable) and move to a different room.

It works wonders. It makes me think hard whether it's really needed to check something on the web. Usually I just preload in tabs background info I may need later in the day to get the job done.

<comment><USER11> When I need to concentrate, I reboot into another partition where I have neglected to enable wifi, and have a rather drab, but efficient-looking environment set up. Turns out FreeBSD and wmaker are great productivity tools.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Most people like edw519 have talked about practical solutions to it, but have you ever considered why you do it?

Maybe you just need excitement and intellectual company? Maybe you just want to have someone in your life that inspires you to do something? Maybe you just need to find the right people?

The point is that physical hacks for behavioral problems are ineffective until emotional hacks are taken into account. Just take a deep breath and try to understand yourself.

I'm saying this because I used to be addicted to HN, but now it just doesn't matter. After a series of realizations I'm simply indifferent to that high, and that's something far more long lasting than a firefox extension.

Take care.

<comment><USER13> So you got more or better or smarter friends or work partners in your life, which stopped your HN addiction?

Or by "someone in your life that inspires" do you mean a sexual or romantic partner?

Specifics please.

<comment><USER12> You know there are different types of relationships in life and this sort of stimulation can come through any one of them.

For details sake I found better friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The /etc/hosts hack actually works. I don't use noprocrast since I need to visit news.yc for other good reasons during my work.

But the trick that really made the difference is this. I run a cron job which will over write the /etc/hosts with a file which has yc/reddit blocked. This way, when ever I open access for good reasons or even to have my 30 minutes per day of YC reading, the file gets overwritten in the next 30 min window and I get fed up with editing it again and again. So I give up and go back to work, sort of like nagging myself very effectively.

<comment><USER15> I use the /etc/hosts block, but defeat myself if I edit it... would you be willing to share the cron job? Much oblidged!

<comment><USER16> If I understood correctly it should be as simple as having an extra file setup to replace your hosts file say /etc/hosts.override and put all your blocked hosts there along with your regular hosts file.

Then you just add a 30 minute cron job to do

        cp /etc/hosts.override /etc/hosts

<comment><USER14> This is exactly how you do it. Setting up a cron job to run every 30 minutes can be done like this: crontab -e and put this line in there 0,30 * * * * your_command or like 0/30 * * * * your_command. The second one works for me, I am on a mac.

Make sure the user who runs the job has permission to overwrite the file.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've never been at the stage where I don't do _anything_, but I'm often frustrated that I don't do _enough_.

I went through a stage of spending way too much time on Reddit - on the order of 4-5 hours a day. This has been discussed often, but it can be crippling - as soon as you hit the tiniest mental roadblock, you switch your browser to Reddit, next thing you know it's 20 minutes later and not only is your roadblock not solved, you even forgot what you were doing. So then you read more Reddit while you try to remember.

It's terrible, and a lot of it isn't even conscious, until the day is over and you realize how little you did.

My friend made a good point - you don't NEED more than 15 minutes a day to keep up to date with what's on sites like Reddit or HN. You can spend a lot more time, but beyond a certain point it's just frustration that you've already read all of it.

So I installed LeechBlock:

<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4476/>

I set it to allow 15 minutes of access every 6 hours to my timesinks, and I set it to not allow access to its settings during the blocked times (so I can't easily turn it off).

At first I would hit the blocked page every few minutes, without even realizing that I intended to do so. The frequency was a bit shocking, to be honest - part of it was honestly muscle memory by then (alt-tab to browser, type "re", down, enter). The blocked page made it possible to force myself to focus on work again, every time, but it also made me realize how badly my brain patterns had been disrupted - my brain just craved distractions and did NOT want to focus for more than a few minutes at a time, which is never enough to do anything meaningful.

After about a week, the cravings for distraction were a lot lower. After about two weeks, they were mostly gone. I've now settled into a good rhythm, I complete tasks without interruption and check the time sinks for a few minutes at a time in between tasks - and I always have the safety net of the 15 minutes per 6 hours limit. I usually hit that limit, but not always.

Sure, it's trivial to circumvent LeechBlock (just use a different browser, for example), but that's not the point. The point is that you are making a conscious decision that what your brain is doing is not OK, and you need to re-train it to do what you want. Things like LeechBlock are not magical solutions, but just tools to help you do that.

Edit: I prefer LeechBlock to the hostsfile hacks because it's not as rigid: it lets me settle into a natural rhythm that works for me, which also means I'm a lot less likely to turn it off and "forget" to turn it back on.

<comment><USER18> very good chrome equivalent:

StayFocusd [https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/laankejkbhbdhmip...](https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/laankejkbhbdhmipfmgcngdelahlfoji)

<comment><USER19> I installed the StayFocusd extension a week ago, and set 20 minute limits for Hacker News and Facebook. From that alone, my productivity has gone up tenfold. The amount of time I wasted wandering the internet was ridiculous!

In short: I highly recommend StayFocusd for Chrome users.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I have a _huge_ problem with this. My problem is getting started. Sometimes I'm so overwhelmed by what I have to do that I either don't want to start or I don't know where to start. However, when I begin, I can code/study for hours on end. Maybe some of you are in the same boat.

Here are some tools I'm using to keep myself focused. Concentrate (<http://getconcentrating.com/>) blocks websites that distract me, opens/closes apps, blocks distracting apps (RSS reader, Twitter), and reminds me every ten minutes of my goals via Growl. I'm also using it with Vitamin-R (<http://www.publicspace.net/Vitamin-R/index.html>) to help me work in pomodoro cycles. Hope you get some use out of those apps! :-)

</comment><comment><USER21> Yes, which is why there is a useful noprocrast setting in your profile.

<comment><USER22> I've never used the noprocrast option on HN, but I've tried other things. The problem is that pretty much any roadblock you put up can be trivially defeated.

For example, if I were to put sites like reddit or HN in my hosts file, and point them to 127.0.0.1, it really wouldn't take me more than 30 seconds or so to get around it. It should work as a reminder that, "oh yeah, I should be doing something else" but that never seems to work for me.

In this case, I have to assume that just logging out of HN is enough to get around the noprocrast. Assuming also that when the noprocrast is in effect you can't access HN to log out, it still only takes 30 seconds to kill the cookie(s). Even with some sort of unkillable cookie, I do webdev, so I've got easy access to Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Safari, and IE8. Even with something like a flash cookie which (I think) remembers you cross-browser, I also have VMs to run IE6 and IE7. Admittedly, by the time I boot up a new VM to visit HN, I'd definitely get the point that "oh, I should be working" but that's a bit beside my point.

Besides, HN is nothing compared to the time sink that is StackOverflow. There's always _something_ I can research ad nauseum there. I've learned a lot from my procrastination, but I've got shockingly little done.

<comment><USER23> _For example, if I were to put sites like reddit or HN in my hosts file, and point them to 127.0.0.1, it really wouldn't take me more than 30 seconds or so to get around it. It should work as a reminder that, "oh yeah, I should be doing something else" but that never seems to work for me._

I did this when writing my dissertation. It worked really well. I find that most of my browsing comes from clicking through to the sites in my "Most visited sites" homepage. Blocking them was a good neg that broke this harmful browsing pattern.

<comment><USER22> It's just too easily defeated for it to really work on me, since I convince myself that I'll just check this _one_ thing, then I'll go back to working.

It's the exact same thought process that, after I've been up all night and I'm trying to stay up all day to reset my internal clock, convinces me that it's ok to lay down in my bed for a minute. I inevitably wake up quite confused a number of hours later.

I saw a site once that you can route your procrastination sites to. When you browse the site (by IP address, naturally) it displays a message saying basically "you blocked this for a reason... slacker." Since I can't remember the address anymore, I've been thinking about installing a web server on my laptop to emulate it.

Edit: I found it. The address is 18.104.22.168 and it just displays the message "You've chosen to block this site in your hosts file."

<comment><USER23> Okay - you need _some_ semblance of self control.

For me, it's a subconscious thing. It's close to mindlessly browsing.

Forwarding to that message wouldn't do anything for me. I think the most important thing was just that "neg" to break out of the mindlessness and get back on track :)

<comment><USER21> I'm told it's like quitting smoking. If you still find ways around the hurdles you put up for yourself, you're never gonna quit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Two ideas:

A large part of the reason HN is so distracting, is that usually, when you read it, you look at the front page and open everything that looks interesting in new tabs. So when you're using your browser for something productive, you see a tab open that you haven't had a chance to read, and you want to go read it. Solution? Firefox profiles. Start firefox with firefox -P work --no- remote, and use that for all your work related things, while your should-read- later-eventually-maybe tabs stay happily open in another profile.

Second idea,

      echo "127.0.0.1" `sqlite3 ~/.mozilla/firefox/*default/places.sqlite "select url from moz_places order by -visit_count limit 100" | cut -d/ -f 3|sort -u| tr "\n" " "` | sudo tee -a /etc/hosts

Maybe HN isn't your only distraction, and this saves you having to figure it out.

</comment><comment><USER25> No, but for me Hacker News is like having the radio on in the background. It's always open in a tab and I'll read it frequently. If I wasn't doing that I'd probably be day dreaming listening to Radio 4.

</comment><comment><USER26> Same here. I just started to get out of it, this is how I'm trying:

1\. I made a list with all my (good!) projects ideas 2\. I tried to estimate how long each would take to have a Minimum Viable Product ready for launch 3\. I chose the one with the shortest time estimate 4\. I split the whole project in tiny todo items (things you can do in a few hours: like "create the sitemap", "create the db structure", "outline the homepage", "make that script" etc) 5\. I put the list on my desktop in a long Stickie 6\. I commit to myself to mark as done at least one todo each day

And it seems to work, I'm halfway through my project now.

</comment><comment><USER27> No, I read reddit all day, and when I want to actually do something, I read HackerNews. It's (almost) work-related.

</comment><comment><USER28> If you're easily distracted, it doesn't matter what you're wasting time with. If it's not HN, then it's Reddit. If it's not Reddit, then it's Facebook. If it's not Facebook.. and on and on.

I keep myself going by setting personal deadlines: I don't browse the internet if I 'need' to finish something before, say, going to lunch.

EDIT: Also, before stopping work, I always try to have a good idea of what to do next. It's much easier to dive back into work because I know what to do, and my subconscious has had time to think about how to do it. This was inspired by Hemingway's 'hack':

"The best way is always to stop when you are going good and when you know what will happen next. If you do that every day … you will never be stuck. Always stop while you are going good and don't think about it or worry about it until you start to write the next day. That way your subconscious will work on it all the time. But if you think about it consciously or worry about it you will kill it and your brain will be tired before you start."

</comment><comment><USER29> And Less Wrong, and reddit... and my day generally starts in the afternoon, so the day itself isn't very long.

</comment><comment><USER30> I would recommend Rescue Time (<http://www.rescuetime.com/> \- YC08). You can try to block HN (and other time wasting sites) multiple ways, but they are easy to get around. However if you _see_ the total time spent it might make you change your ways. Plus you can see how much time you are in programming mode and have a couple weeks can really see some trends and work on them.

<comment><USER31> Rescuetime is my savior. It is way too easy to open your browser and click on those tempting little icons you've bookmarked for your self. Unfortunately, I can't save my self from external distractions but as long as I'm "wired-in" from external distractions Rescuetime allows me to work and stay focused.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Yes, I do this. However, the reason is not because I am unproductive or distracted. It's because I'm at work. If I have work to do at work, I do it. Then I have no work to do. I would work on my own personal projects, but then they would be works for hire. I have to work on them at home in order to own them. Even if I get them to agree to let me work from home, I have to work on the things outside of work hours to get them to be my own property.

I would be glad to quit and just work on my own personal projects. Will you pay my rent? Didn't think so.

</comment><comment><USER33> The best thing I've found for distractions is a program called "Concentrate" on OS X. You can set time to block certain classifications of sites, such as social networks. I do the pomodoro technique which is 25 minutes code, 5 minute break alternations. You'd be surprised that you get just about the same amount of HN time in your 5 minute allotments.

I did a blog post about it here: [http://jasonseifer.com/2010/02/08/using- concentrate-for-pomo...](http://jasonseifer.com/2010/02/08/using-concentrate- for-pomodoro).

<comment><USER20> I just wrote a comment to this submission before reading yours. :-) I totally agree. Concentrate is a lifesaver.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> You're in a good company, Paul Graham himself wrote about this problem several times.

<http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html>

<http://www.paulgraham.com/distraction.html>

</comment><comment><USER35> realizing that you have a problem is the first step.

you just need to get started doing something, once you are actually doing instead of dreaming, you won't have the free time to waste on distractions

</comment><comment><USER36> HackerNews is an example of a larger problem: addiction to intellectual stimulation. Reality is, human brains move very slowly and most often in predictable paths. Therefore, the odds of you hearing of a breakthrough in your chosen discipline on any given day are approximately the same as winning a national lottery. But the probability of hearing on any given day about inventive false starts that will eventually lead nowhere or something some intelligent person said somewhere that might have a glimmer of promise approaches one. These constant bursts of stimulation are sufficiently pleasurable, if you can't clamp down on them, to occupy your entire day. Here's a litmus test: If you read HackerNews from start to dregs and are let down because you didn't find anything really new, you're reading too frequently. Don't read it or anything like it for a month. If you have the same experience after a month, extend the wait to two months, and so on. Genuine novelty comes along once in a blue moon. False novelty is an addiction.

</comment><comment><USER37> As long as you making plans and analyze why to do something or not, you are losing your time on over-analysis. Instead of reading super-analytical and pseudo philosophical 'less wrong' or marketing crap from 'techcrunch', that have little to do with reality, start to do something REAL. When you do something REAL, ideas will pop-up on the course and some believes will be challenged, but this is the only way.

HN is great community but there are some stereotypes that need to be chalenged on personal level:

1\. The "SWEAT CAPITAL" is better than Venture Capital, and you have access to it already.

2\. If you want to make money, do not think in the box. Here people tend to analyze what already been done. This is not a way - you need to innovate.

3\. People will laugh with your ideas and failures. You need to be firm believer in what you do. Respect is gained and not granted.

4\. Start doing something "stupid", without prospects of economical gain. you will see that you will end up with something completely different than when you started thinking about it.

5\. Stop dreaming -- Start Doing. It is much more rewarding and interesting.

Let It Be.

</comment><comment><USER38> Solution I found (globally, in a lot of scenarios, not just related to HN) is: Don't do anything unless it's specific.

I try to only sit at the PC if I'm "doing" something on it. Even in micro bursts. Shortlist of examples:

\- If I'm thinking, I'll stand up away from the station

\- If I need to code, I'll sit down with the purpose of coding to a goal / time window

\- If I'm stuck, then again, I'll get off the station / away from the keyboard and think

\- If I fire up HN, its specific - I'm checking HN for 20 mins to see whats happening, browsing some articles, then stopping.

\- I try to avoid randomly tabbing back into mail clients and etc, I'd rather tackle it as a distinct thing as well

It applies pretty much everywhere though. If I want to game, I don't just sit down and play, I'll decide - take a break, 20 mins, gaming, do it. Done is done, get back on task.

The higher level thing is to hit your day / hour / afternoon period etc with a clear idea of what you actually want to get done. I find when you're carrying a bigger idea (eg, shit, i need to get this document out today!), it automagically structures your time a bit more.

</comment><comment><USER39> Ben Franklin has a saying "experience keeps a dear school but a fool will learn at no other". In other words, seek wisdom and experience vicariously, and as Isaac Newton said, "stand on the shoulders of giants". The word vicarious means "experienced in the imagination through the feelings or actions of another person".

But there's a cost to vicarious experience when we start to derive feelings of fulfillment ("being in the game") from success stories at the neglect of reaching for our own. A telltale sign is when people start calling Steve Jobs "Jobs" or Bob Dylan "Dylan", as if they know them. Don't live in the movies. The real world is a better movie.

There's a Biblical saying that goes something like this "the Kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of talk, but of power". The earthly realm is certainly no different. Use vicarious experience to gain wisdom, not to trigger endorphins. Keep your head down, your mouth shut, and get on with your own business.

</comment><comment><USER40> I'm working on something real. The trick for the overload:

1) [http://jeffmiller.github.com/2010/07/23/a-cure-for-hacker- ne...](http://jeffmiller.github.com/2010/07/23/a-cure-for-hacker-news- overload) 2) Never read it immediatly _, use instapaper first, and only read at the end of the day.

_ \- sometimes I just go take a peak, just like this story =)

</comment><comment><USER41> I usually read HN once in the morning, once at lunch, and maybe before falling asleep. I find it doesn't really change enough for me to read it "all day". But I never leave the first page ;p

</comment><comment><USER42> May be you need a coding buddy. Sharing the ideas and working together on a project always gives me strong motivational boosts. Plus having to explain ideas to others helps in finding flaws.

</comment><comment><USER43> Hi,

I have faced (maybe still facing) the same issue and have started to employee 3 techniques, first two of which Tim Ferris mentioned. 1- Cultivate selective ignorance 2- Batching tasks up 3- Create a schedule

How would this help? HN, Reddit, and the other news and information sites out there are awesome but can become time-thieves if you let them. We come to these sites to see what is the latest and greatest in the news, for inspiration, and also to learn so that we can do things better. The question is: how much information do we need to be adequately informed and how much do we need to learn in order to get to work on something we are passionate about? Not as much as we would think in my opinion. Cultivating selective ignorance is necessary to ward off the feelings of "I need to read more in order to get this thing going", or "I am falling behind, need to catch up with the news". We will never be able to get it all and thus just need to focus and specialize to some extent. Well rounded-ness is great, but in excess it will give you no depth in anything. Do not try to consume all data from all sources; we cannot keep up with the data deluge and will drown in it if we foolishly attempt to do so. Use what you already know, get started and focus on your ideas. If you do not you will just build up all kinds of anxieties and will feel down on yourself for not doing anything. In addition, this data deluge is also overwhelming and you may feel like you are not smart enough or the product will not be good enough for launch. It feels good to even do the simplest of tasks you set out to do and makes you want to do more. I blog about something similar to this here: [http://techjobsspace.blogspot.com/2010/11/and- furthermore-my...](http://techjobsspace.blogspot.com/2010/11/and-furthermore- my-son-be-admonished-of.html)

Batching and scheduling are awesome concepts to start using immediately. Information addict? I know I am and love to consume much data. My information- rich diet includes all the stuff you guys are reading but what I do slightly differently than some is set dates and times during the week on my phone calendar to read this data. Instead of reading everyday I pick some days of the week to get it all in and limit myself to that. If you have a calendar on your phone or pc or the web, use that to control the addiction. You do not need to deprive yourself completely (unless it is a severe problem) just schedule when it is ok to read. I use this for errands and other things as well. We all need breaks from work to unwind; use this time to catch up with friends and family, errands, and reading. Stick to your schedule and it will all fall into place eventually. Paul Graham definitely does not want this site to be a time-sink.

Hope this helps!

</comment><comment><USER44> Yes, but it's ok - my code is compiling...

<comment><USER45> These days all the cool kids are using the "my test suite is running" excuse instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Since i've handed in my resignation letter it is very hard to actually do any work at all. I spend almost all my time at work reading HN and other similar sites. I do feel very bad for this but can't help it.

</comment><comment><USER47> Try Leech Block:

<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4476/>

It blocks selected websites during hours / days you select, or allows you to say "No more than 30 minutes of Hacker News every 4 hours." It's highly configurable.

Of course, you're smart enough to find a way round its blocking if you want to. But really, deep down, you want to be productive and when Leech block pops up with its "Site blocked" screen, it will be a helpful reminder of this.

</comment><comment><USER48> Yes, but only at work. It works out quite well actually, when work is over, I am pretty sick of HN, so it isn't quite as appealing a distraction at home as it is at work.

</comment><comment><USER49> Part of the problem is Variable Ratio Rewards, or random rewards. MMOs use them intentionally to get people addicted, but they're also inherent in social news sites.

Sometimes you find real gems, either in the articles or the discussions (on HN often the latter as much or more than the former), and sometimes just noise. But you never know which will turn up on the front page and when, so you keep checking back over and over.

</comment><comment><USER50> A mentor of mine always says: Do you want to be the one who reads the news, or the one who makes the news?

Also: Learn more just in time instead of just in case.

</comment><comment><USER51> What I would do if I where you would be to start writing a blog and then feed that into the HN community. That way you are forcing yourself to do something while still being able to read HN.

After a while someone will probably tell you that some of your ideas are great enough that you will build the necessary will power to get started.

Remember ideas are a dime a dozen, execution is king.

</comment><comment><USER52> No, I work at my 9-5 job all day. I usually peruse HN over breakfast or dinner. After dinner, and on weekends, I work on coding a little application of my own.

I find that it helps to read HN to keep me motivated. I doubt I'll ever make much money off of the applications I create. But it's encouraging to read about people who do.

</comment><comment><USER53> Since this community is largely made up of smart people, and since it seems pretty common to spend 'too much time' doing things like HN, and since we are currently the product of a lot of evolution I wonder if focus is actually all that's its cracked up to be. Possibly our overall productivity when viewed on a larger scale is better because we get distracted, possibly idea generation, possibly just the social aspect, or learning of a new technology etc. I just wonder if this is so bad really.

The Web2.0 Summit said that the tech sector is innovating at an unprecedented rate. One of the changes in the software industry in recent years is the rise of the social network and sites like HN. Maybe 'time wasting' isn't so bad after all - viewed at a higher altitude that personal productivity.

</comment><comment><USER54> Yes, a little. I have a day job, and unfortunately am unable to break away from that to join the entrepreneurial pool. Like you, I have a background littered with technical acumen and actually _helped_ with a few start ups. I enjoyed it, but the instability just isn't for me _right now_.

I still _do things_ and _make things_ , but they aren't start ups. Some are school projects, others are for my day job, and some are just for fun. I read HN because there are great people with interesting opinions on stories I want to read.

That said, I feel the same way. I want to break out and do things. I get that feeling sometimes, and it hurts to feel trapped, but then my paycheck goes through and I log my 40 hours and go home.

</comment><comment><USER55> Suppose you're working on debugging java threads. You can open browser tabs like these, instead. Works for me.

<http://www.delicious.com/tag/java+concurrency?setcount=100>

<http://www.reddit.com/search?q=java+concurrency>

[http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com#s...](http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=site:news.ycombinator.com+java+concurrency&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=240c6721121f4cc3)

</comment><comment><USER56> Hacker news has wasted a lot of my time.

But it has also provided a lot of information that constitutes authentic "professional development" - links to important algorithms, debate over software process and similar things.

I don't know have any idea how the equation balances but if I didn't read Hacker News I'd have to find some more active way to make sure I read enough papers.

What seems like an opportunity would be to build a discussion forum where the posts and discussion was at a high enough level that the time essentially wasn't wasted. HN isn't there yet but it's a hint about what might be...

</comment><comment><USER57> Download Selfcontrol, set it for 8 hours, and block HN, Fb, news sites, etc.

It blocks those sites you waste time on, and you cannot change the settings by quitting the app or even restarting your computer. It's great.

<comment><USER58> MacOS only for now.

<comment><USER59> Linux port: <http://svn.jklmnop.net/projects/SelfControl.html>

Has perl module and deb package

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> This happens to me all the time. For a while I stopped visiting HN to make myself feel better. Reading all the comments on this page, I feel people are just proposing hacks that stop you from visiting sites like HN or reddit. I think best hack is to start your own project. Do anything, it could even be reading a book and typing code from the book into your computer. Doing _anything_ will make you feel better about yourself. Remember, it does NOT have to be a product that magically changes the world and brings unicorns to life

</comment><comment><USER61> How many hours does HN distraction cost you? For me it was like 2 hours per day, until I reached a point where I felt that I knew just enough to actually go and start doing something. Building something was the way to test my knowledge. Now I'm in progress with my first startup and HN browsing takes 15 minutes, I mainly bookmark stories that might benefit the project I am working with, it keeps me going.

So my advice would be, go and test how well you know "THE GAME", build something!

</comment><comment><USER62> Underwear. Never get out of bed.

Just me and Hacker News.

Big picture of Paul Graham on the wall.

</comment><comment><USER63> May I suggest my noprocrast gem? Designed to solve exactly this problem.

<http://github.com/rfwatson/noprocrast>

</comment><comment><USER64> If your problem is spending too much time on HN, do you really think the solution involves posting on HN?

If this is really a problem, close your browser and never come back here and you'll have a much more productive life. If you find yourself coming up with substitutes, do the same with them. Think of this as your alcoholism, and realize that moderation, while it works for some people, is not an option for you.

</comment><comment><USER65> My problem is that my time is occupied by other things at the moment. I read Hacker News (and Hackers Monthly) every day before heading to University and during my afternoon cup(s) of coffee and feel really inspired to get something done, but work for University and for an upcoming language exam keep me so busy that I don't have the time to actually get some coding done.

I hope that changes sometime soon..

</comment><comment><USER66> As a self confessed HN addict, I want to share a new technique I found that massively improved my productivity in an instant.

Too good to be true ? Read on....

The technique is slightly different, depending in which operating system you have, but in general the instructions are:

(i) switch to your browser (ii) select "Exit" from the "File" menu.

Voila! Productivity improves. [[ assuming your not using the browser for work, of course ]]

Try it.

</comment><comment><USER67> Yes.

</comment><comment><USER68> I do. But I've come to accept it like that, for me it's not that terrible anymore. After all, I am _not_ "in the game", really, even if it would be nice. It's a shame you cannot get the entrepreneurial gene after being born. But it's nice to be able to watch things unfold from a close distance.

</comment><comment><USER69> Do similar things only when there is nothing else really interesting ready to hand. So if I have an assignment due and have a total dislike for it, yes I will waste a lot of time reading various site like HN. But if I have something fun available, maybe only a few moments when I am taking a break.

</comment><comment><USER70> Click on your username, set "noprocrast" to yes, then you will find yourself often staring at the "Sorry you can't view this site" text but you will get more productive. You can even select how long you want to work between reading HN there. It really helps and I can't thank PG enough for this :)

</comment><comment><USER71> Not so much (mind you I was on HN a lot by my standards yesterday, but I was off sick), although lately I've been going through my morning browsing and submitting the tabs I found interesting, which I've noticed tends to result in a minor surge in posts by me on the new page.

</comment><comment><USER72> same here, ehm I don't whether to feel ashamed or happy to see somebody else in the same situation

</comment><comment><USER73> If you are on Windows, you can download CherryTomato which is designed to help you with procrastination even though it sounds like your condition might be severe :-)

<http://www.beatpoints.com/cherrytomato>

<comment><USER74> CherryTomato uses the Pomodoro technique, and I have found it handy (occasionally).

If you are on a Mac, here is one that I use - <http://pomodoro.ugolandini.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> No, I divide my time on two fronts: quality time, when I'm fresh and full with energy, and rest time.

Hacker news is always part of the rest time, when I'm tired and lazy so no problem quitting.

On quality time focus and only interrupt it for resting.

</comment><comment><USER76> i find that small distractions of 10 minutes at a time are fine, but often we get stuck on a site because we haven't finished reading it fully before we tell ourselves to get back to work. long pages (like these comment threads on HN and other sites) don't seem to help the matter.

someone should make a browser extension that visually blocks out parts of a page while you're supposed to be working. it would slowly reveal (say from top to bottom) parts of it the more time you're away from it and actually working. this way, your "reward" would be a fully rendered page every 10 minutes or so.

</comment><comment><USER77> well... all my work is scripted... so its ok to spend a little time on HN B-)

</comment><comment><USER78> I read it through feeds and keep checking every 3-4 hours. This gives me time to do others things as well. As of now, not very active in discussions, but trying to hop in.

</comment><comment><USER79> on your profile page fill in these fields

        noprocrast: yes
        maxvisit: 15
        minaway: 180

That will allow you spend no more than 15 minutes every 3 hours

</comment><comment><USER80> For the past month etc/host block on my macbook. Access with my ipad at night and in the morning. I gained a lot of productivity!

</comment><comment><USER81> You seem to be doing something, since you are reflecting about your own problems and making this little post about doing nothing.

</comment><comment><USER82> Was this posted by Ryan of The Office while he was supposed to be selling WUPHF.com?

</comment><comment><USER83> Me weekend, full of plans, ended in only reading HN (except when I went out)...

</comment><comment><USER84> I don't see a reason to up-vote that post.

I guess you don't feel the incredible urge to make things. Perhaps making things is not for you then. I don't think its laziness, it's simply that you don't NEED to do anything.

</comment><comment><USER85> on mon-fri - yes..it helps me to run....on weekends - no, cause - HN walks on weekends

</comment><comment><USER86> nope , mine is Google Reader i want to make a filter to help me do reading quickly

<comment><USER87> Just shift+a it

</comment></comment><comment><USER88> Count me in.

</comment><comment><USER89> Yes.

</comment><comment><USER90> No.

</comment><comment><USER91> yes every day!

</comment><comment><USER92> Keep in mind sites like Reddit and HN are pretty addictive in a chemical way (so can your email be). When you see something interesting or that agrees with your identity your brain gives you a hit of dopamine. You browse and look for the funny or fascinating because you remember finding somehting great earlier.

It's funny because Reddit hates advertising/mass manipulation etc but are being manipulated by the group all the time in many ways.

<comment><USER93> For dopamine, try <http://hackerbra.in/> (specifically <http://hackerbra.in/ask> ) (you get it faster and easier - top comments without page refreshes.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER94> I am glad I have never had this problem. I really dont care about HN @ all and just use it as a resource to learn from the same as TC and a plethora of other websites. I enjoy making things so thats what I do and the same goes for my friends. If you enjoy studying startups more than launching products etc... then perhaps you should shift your career in that direction.

</comment><comment><USER95> There are addictions in this world far worse than HN.

I may have a monkey on my back but at least he is fairly civil and always has something interesting to say.</comment>


Responding to jacquesm's challenge - <AUTHOR> http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/03/responding-to-jacquesms-challenge.html

<comment><USER2> Did you look at posting times at all to exclude people who never post at certain times? (I should add that that's not my idea but something someone posted on the original thread).

<comment><AUTHOR> No, I had a limited amount of time to get this done so there are lots of other things I could have tried.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Hahaha, you still haven't found me out.

Oh wait..

<comment><AUTHOR> I asked PG if swombat and onetimetoken had set off the HN sock puppet detector and he said that onetimetoken had used an IP address never before seen by HN.

So, swombat, time to prove that you are onetimetoken.

<comment><USER3> If I was onetimetoken, and I went to all this hassle to create a properly anonymous account and even laid down a challenge to you to find me out... why would I help you to find me out by giving you proof?

<comment><AUTHOR> You are the one making the claim to be onetimetoken. I'm just asking that you back that up.

<comment><USER3> Where did I make such a claim? I made a joke about such a claim...

or did I...

<comment><USER4> The comment similarity problem is a lot more interesting than the is-swombat- just-being-coy problem...could you just tell us?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is certainly an interesting problem,but without having some access to the data I don't think I could really approach it.

Perhaps I am alone in saying this, but I think data mining is interesting while web crawling is boring. Could somebody make the data available so that we don't have to write a crawler? Or is this part of the challenge?

I think this is a classic example of unsupervised learning, for which I would generally use a system like Fuzzy ART. I think that might perform better than a naive Basyesian text classifier though I can't be sure until I try it out.

<comment><USER6> If anyone wants to use 80legs for this challenge, just drop us a line at <http://www.80legs.com/contact.html>. We might be able to set up some custom free plans.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Would the owner of the comment just fess up for pete's sake? We won't hurt you.

edit: there's some new text to put through the filter: <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=onetimetoken>

and please try running the previous suspects through the filter: marketer, citizenparker, martythemaniak, eru, vaksel, neilc, vanelsas, swelljoe

Also, if it's not you of those, please formally deny it.

<comment><USER8> There's a misspelled word in the profile.

<http://searchyc.com/identitiy>

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Isn't the Naive Bayes classifier biased to users with a large volume of text? Ie if there are two users and one writes 99% of the content it's very likely that that user will be picked as the author for almost anything? At the same time, this may be desired since someone who does contribute a lot on HN may have also desired to have some fun.

<comment><AUTHOR> The key calculation is given a word w what's the frequency with which this user uses word w. So that's number of times w occurs / numbers of words that user has used. So it doesn't matter as long as a user has 'enough' text so that they've covered a good portion of the overall dictionary of words in use.

The prior probability is based on the number of comments a user makes. In this case that prior is insignificant because the sample text is large.

<comment><USER10> Training on word pairs or triples may also be worth a look, instead of going for single words only.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What did you use to compute P(D|Ci)?

This uses your notation from the Dr Dobbs article, so that Ci (a category) is a user and D is a document (a comment?).

Did you use something like trigram signatures?

Also, is P(Ci) equal to #comments made by Ci/total number of users?

Interesting stuff jgrahamc!

<comment><AUTHOR> I just used whitespace separated words after stripping punctuation.

<comment><USER12> I'd have thought that capitalisation and punctuation were key elements in any textual analysis. In the subject text there is a very unusual hyphenation "pure-ad" for example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Very cool, and appropriate that you're basically using PG's spam filtering to identify users on his site :)

I think the next step is to write a more complex filter that does not assume word probabilities are independent of each other, i.e. take unusual phrases like "entirely dissimilar" into account.

</comment><comment><USER14> That's a nice approach, but a naive bayes classifier doesn't seem like it would be the best method for this particular problem.

You probably want to do an N-gram analysis, like that performed by libtextcat <http://software.wise-guys.nl/libtextcat/>. This will perform a comparison based on common combinations of letters used (like "wo", "or", "rd"). Seems like it would be more accurate with such a relatively small sample of comments. If you had a list of 10-20 possible candidates, you could narrow it down to just a few.

</comment><comment><USER15> Didn't somebody code up a website a while ago that looked for other HN members that were similar in commenting style to oneself?

</comment><comment><USER16> As I was in the list on there, I just want to confirm it wasn't me _but_ when I read the original comments left by the anonymous commenter, I saw a lot of my own syntax mannerisms - at least the algorithm isn't too bad, eh? ;-)

</comment><comment><USER17> So basically everybody struck out. Most likely due to sample size.

There's an interesting lesson here that probably says something like the coolness of the tool used has no direct relation to the usefulness of the conclusions provided.

<comment><USER18> I think it would be more interesting if the "guesses" would actually take into consideration how successful or unsuccessful the method is with the data available. For example, how likely are each of the names he mentioned and how likely is it that it's any one of them?

Edit: If someone here has a background in intelligence I would love to here their take on the challange.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Great to see an analytical approach to the challenge :D Although reviewing your first list most of them actually seem unlikely (for a variety of reasons).

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm dying to know if this turns out to be right, or not. I actually have a totally different list which is based on a different handling of punctuation. It suggests that the most likely person who also commented on that thread is zaveri.

<comment><USER19> Im still convinced the lower case use of google, facebook etc. (which occured more than once in the comment) is important - especially as there is one Google at the start of a sentence - indicating it is intentional/common.

That's why I personally discounted many from your first list (plus the fact I know a few are native English speakers)

<comment><USER20> I am aghast that people would think I'm not a native English speaker. I hope I'm numbered in the "few." Disclaimer: sometimes Windows handwriting recognition makes a real hash of my post without my noticing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Don't rule out jacquesm himself! It'd be just the kind of thing he would do.

</comment><comment><USER8> <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/135901/rare_words.py>

</comment><comment><USER22> This is my inscrutable face.</comment>


Regarding "Is Node Better?" - <AUTHOR> http://blog.izs.me/post/20786279320/re-brixens-is-node-better

<comment><USER2> "They use Node.js because that language is JavaScript, and JavaScript is fun."

Which is why one of the most widely used node.js applications is an alternative language that keeps you from having to write JavaScript.

<comment><USER3> I love node.js, but this made me lol. (I use both vanilla JS and CoffeeScript, fwiw.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is a great post, thanks for writing. I've been looking for some discussion of Node that strikes the right balance between theory and practice. I second the Thinking Fast and Slow recommendation. Nice to see more posts including behavior economics in the discussion.

</comment><comment><USER5> Very good read. While I do think that the amount of code sharing between the client and server is not big the fact that you are using the same language reduces friction and helps a lot to avoid 'context switch' issues.</comment>


Michael Nielsen on open science at TEDxWaterloo [video] - <AUTHOR> http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/open-science-2/

<comment><USER2> Funny how it's become a novel idea to do science collaboratively on the web, which was invented _by physicists_ at a _particle accelerator_ specifically for that purpose.</comment>


Filtrex: A simple JavaScript filter expression compiler - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/joewalnes/filtrex <comment><USER2> This is really slick. I wonder if it would be useful to build an object model for the filters rather than directly concatenating the code. That would allow for interesting inspection on the parsed expressions or transformation of them. For instance, combining two filters should be just as easy as combining two expressions.

        var expression = compileExpression('transactions <= 5 and abs(profit) > 20.5');

...should also be possible to write as this, to help DRY everything...

        var fewTransactions = compileExpression('transactions <= 5');
        var lotsOfProfit = compileExpression('abs(profit) > 20.5');
        var expression = fewTransactions.and(lotsOfProfit);

You might look into the Specification pattern [0] to handle the heavy lifting in a simple way.

[0]: [http://www.martinfowler.com/apsupp/spec.pdf](http://www.martinfowler.com/apsupp/spec.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> It's less general purpose, but the polymer-expressions library is also worth a look:

[https://github.com/Polymer/polymer- expressions](https://github.com/Polymer/polymer-expressions)

</comment><comment><USER4> Including all of jison?

I've implemented something similar several times in different ways now, and I strongly recommend looking into the Precedence Climbing algorithm - you can build something like this without the jison dependency in almost as few lines as `filtrex.js` already is.

<comment><USER5> Your username...

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> It looks brilliant, but the 128kb dependency kills it. You'd have to do _a lot_ of these expressions to be able to validate the usage of yet another 128k lib imo.

</comment><comment><USER7> I love this, but I think I'll wait until a few more people play around with hacking it.</comment>


Ask HN: Which languages have best interop / FFI / extension? - <AUTHOR> I find https://usehelix.com/ for Rust/Ruby very elegant! <comment><USER2> [https://github.com/PyO3/pyo3](https://github.com/PyO3/pyo3) Rust/Python is very good</comment>


Antipackage: automagically import single file Python modules from GitHub - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/ellisonbg/antipackage

<comment><USER2> Bundling together the process of downloading packages and building them is a very bad idea, but you have moved it to the whole next level!

Congratulations!</comment>


Ask HN: Any London startups recruiting grads for the summer? - <AUTHOR>

Hi, I'm a CS student who graduates in July, so I'm wondering if any startups are recruiting for then? My main skill set is Java, with some experience in Haskell, Ruby, C++ and PHP. Thanks. <comment><USER2> Drop me an email. I can't promise anything at this stage but we may be.

</comment><comment><USER3> I can't offer specific help, but I suggest adding details into your HN profile, including your main skill set and email address.</comment>


An Interview with Steve Jobs at the App Store's Launch - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mobile-industrys-never-seen-anything-like-this-an-interview-with-steve-jobs-at-the-app-stores-launch-1532527201 <comment><AUTHOR> I know I editorialized the title by remove the quote, but it was 29 characters too long if I included it.</comment>


To catch a thief, go to Google with a geofence warrant - <AUTHOR> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/01/18/google_geofence_warrant/ <comment><USER2> > The police proceeded to collect surveillance video from houses near the > torched Accord, and noticed the suspects getting into an older model Honda > CRV and a white pickup truck shortly after the failed robbery.

I suspect this will be enough in the future. Short of entering a rave and switching clothing, I can't see how you can avoid law enforcement following you from CCTV to CCTV.</comment>


Damn bugs - <AUTHOR> https://bugtrack.in/

<comment><AUTHOR> Damn Bugs is a free hosted bug tracker. Its clean interface does not contain too many features, leaving just enough space for the ones that you need to manage your testing process efficiently! With team member invitations, task assignation, a comments system and even bug reporting templates, Damn Bugs is the most user-friendly bug tracker out there! We help people discover how simple software testing can be.

</comment><comment><USER2> We have been using this bug tracking software for a couple weeks now, and it is really great! Much simpler than any other program I have used before, and perfect for communicating with the entire team!</comment>


Why You Can't Lose Weight on a Diet - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/why-you-cant-lose-weight-on-a-diet.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fscience&action=click&contentCollection=science&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=10&pgtype=sectionfront <comment><USER2> Previous:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11653635](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11653635)</comment>


Announcing JavaScript Foundation - <AUTHOR> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/announcements/linux-foundation-unites-javascript-community-for-open-web-development <comment><USER2> It'd be good if the reasoning for the foundation could be properly explained.

I understand what governance and architecture etc means in large scale projects but what does it mean for JavaScript if it's not standards based governance i.e. ECMA specs? The Dojo and jQuery foundations merged a year ago, both of them brought a number of libraries and toolkits together such as lodash, grunt etc under a single banner.

What benefit to the open source community does it actually bring?

Is it the combined power of contributors and experts to debate and future proof standards?

The libraries and toolkits under this foundation could be argued by the cool kids of today be legacy. It could be easily ignored by these cool kids.

Bringing it under the linux foundation is interesting but can anyone explain whether this news is actually important for the future of JavaScript?

</comment><comment><USER3> I've noticed a lot of these "Foundations" for open-source projects eventually lead to in-fighting and control usurping where entire boards of directors "resign" and thus the legitimacy of the whole project is questioned. Is this necessary?

<comment><USER4> I can't say I've witnessed the same thing. Instead many cases start out as a pet project of a company (maybe in 20% time) and then are adopted by it (Node being a good example). Then comes the infighting and then later foundationizing.

Back in the early 2000s there were more problems as all sorts of large companies were pushing their agenda attempting to exclude others. But since then, it seems they've mostly realized that open source is a positive sum game, meaning everyone benefits from the work.

I hope Java follows this path as Oracle has been a terrible steward of the JVM and related ecosystem. The foundation concept has been really positive for Python, Node (so far), Linux, et al</comment></comment>


Reflections on Buy vs. Build - <AUTHOR> http://blog.dominodatalab.com/reflections-on-buy-vs-build/?hn=1

<comment><USER2> Sorry, but I can't agree with most of it.

\- Using open source is a completely different choice from the build vs. buy (false) dichotomy. Open source lets you have full control of your future, while not needing to write all the code yourself. It's a best of both words scenario that'll only create more problems than the alternatives if you have licensing incompatibilities.

\- Yes, engineers are biased towards "build". And executives are extremely biased towards "buy". Keep both in mind. I've lost count of how many times I saw somebody spending 6 figures buying some software that didn't solve the problem, just by having the problem solved later by a single engineer working less than 6 months on it.

\- Yes, most of the cost of any software is maintenance. That true for buying as well as building. Except that you can be sure that maintenance of built software goes to making it better, on brought software that varies a lot (know your suppliers).

\- Finally, that doubt about buying software that sustain your core domain... If you can buy software that solves exactly your core domain, are are on the wrong domain.

<comment><USER3> > Open source lets you have full control of your future, while not needing to > write all the code yourself.

I disagree, and I say this as one of the maintainers of a decently popular open source project ([https://www.fluentd.org](https://www.fluentd.org))

It's true that open source allows you to tinker and that it lets you jump start your project. But as you point out yourself, a huge part of your software cost is maintenance, buy or build, open source or proprietary. The reason why open source is great is that as long as you can avoid forking the project, you can reduce your maintenance cost by leveraging community contributions and support.

However, the flip side is that you do not have full control: the community often has different needs than your own, and it's not always easy to convince the community so that the open source project caters to your needs. This is double true if you are _just_ a user.

The alternative of course is to create a fork and either take it in-house or try to get the community to rally behind your fork. In either case, you either lose the community's support entirely or reduce its effectiveness, and the same question/burden of long-term maintenance strikes you back.

<comment><USER2> Yes fork it and it becomes just as expensive as building. Yet, you got all the previous benefit for free, what makes open source strictly a cheaper choice, anyway it goes.

And, of course you can get dependent on some open source code that you don't have enough resources to fork. But that again is strictly better than either buying or building, because you wouldn't be able to build it anyway, and it still gives you much more control than buying.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This strikes me as an amazingly rational approach to build vs buy. Including trying to estimate the entire cost.

A solution you build yourself costs more than just the time of the engineer to build the first version, the work revolving around maintenance and improving it, when that could be borne by an outside company, could be quite high. Also, when an outside company makes it, they can amortize the cost of a new feature across multiple customers. And people will often build things that work with that product, saving you even more effort.

The cost of buying though, is also of course not just the money you pay (free and open source still have a significant cost). How complex is the bought system vs the one you would build? How hard is it to replace with something else? How well tested is it? I've done the 'buy' approach with some open source things and services before and super regretted it when it took longer to debug than writing my own and maintaining it would have.</comment>


Three degrees of separation: breaking down the NSA's 'hops' surveillance method - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/28/nsa-files-decoded-hops <comment><USER2> It should be _one_ hop out from someone actually suspected and under investigation, and then each individual hopped out to is briefly analyzed for innocuous vs suspicious communication. Then out once from those few individuals again.

"That would be too hard." Well, good. They aren't supposed to be figuring out how to spy on everyone. The Constitution made it hard by design, and it's only recent technology that allows them to do this mostly unnoticed.

Three hops out from anyone who looks cross-eyed is just a construction of convenience that looks reasonable to a sleepy or collaborating judge, and results in being "allowed" to spy on virtually everyone.

</comment><comment><USER3> With 25 'friends' online, your 3rd degree network of contacts is estimated at 667,489. Global population might be 7 billion. 7,000,000,000 / 700,000 == 10,000.

I'm guessing 3 degrees was chosen because the NSA has enough targets to basically monitor anyone then.</comment>


Ask HN: What slackbot would you pay $10/month for? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> It's specific per group. We usually talk about a certain thing a lot in a group. Sometimes it's pulling up an API document. Sometimes it's a huge group with a lot of parties and you just want a summary of a long conversation. Sometimes you want to highlight certain links or be up to date with certain items.

</comment><comment><USER3> There's a lot of problems that slackbots can solve, but asking people what type of slackbot they would pay $10 a month for is not probably not going to generate a lot of viable business ideas.

Find out problems folks are having and from there narrow that list down to those that are easily solvable by slackbots.

</comment><comment><USER4> Slackbots are way too specific to any particular group. You may have better luck with Discord bots since you can make more creative bots there (eg music and multimedia as opposed to "boring" office stuff).

</comment><comment><USER5> A tomorrow's closing share price for aapl-bot. A latitude and longitude of my soul mate-bot. A formula for the cure for cancer-bot. A reason to give a damn- bot.</comment>


Joist lays off 60 employees in Toronto as company relocates to SF - <AUTHOR> http://betakit.com/joist-lays-off-60-employees-as-company-relocates-to-san-francisco/ <comment><USER2> I relocated to Toronto SPECIFICALLY to work for Joist, exactly one week ago. I was laid off along with everyone else within 6 days of working for them! Prior to that I was working in the USA for a few years; I'm now in a position where I have to figure out next steps with regards to my career :/ I'm still unsure why they hired me and brought me down here? I'm also hoping that they pay me for my time there (I worked my hardest to impress them, albeit only a week!)

By the way by my count it was closer to 90 people laid off, so they are depressing these numbers.

<comment><USER3> Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company. There's lots of jobs here for developers, and it's just a great city (imho).

I posted below, but the company I work for is hiring in Toronto and the pay is pretty good for this city.

<comment><USER4> > Don't be thrown off of Toronto by one douchebag company

What do you think the company should do? It's a company not a person who left their spouse when they got cancer. They are doing what they feel they should do in order to thrive and survive.

Now you can argue that you think they are wrong, that is that they don't need to move. But then again you won't suffer the downside of the wrong decision. They will. Companies do what companies have to do in order to grow the business based on how they interpret the facts. That is what joist has done.

<comment><USER5> If you're considering laying off 2/3rds of your staff and relocating the remainder to another country, maybe you shouldn't be actively hiring. They didn't come up with this idea last week.

<comment><USER6> Or at least not actively hiring in the place you're going to relocate from

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> As an engineering student at UWaterloo it's pretty depressing to watch most of the best upper year engineers finish their studies and then abandon Canada for SV. There's logic in it for them: American companies are offering huge sums of money by Canadian standards, the weather is nicer, and the opportunities seem better. If I didn't have serious reservations about living in the US, I would probably do the same.

However, I find it particularly reprehensible when companies make the move. For them, it's counter-intuitive: they have access to a huge pool of talent, both experienced devs and the vast armies of grads from UofT, UW and others. Furthermore, they're getting this talent at dirt cheap rates, since the Canadian peso is awful at the moment and salaries are significantly lower here than those in SV and the wider US.

Their expenses go up because they have to pay in USD (instant 25% hit in purchasing power), and they get thrown into the rat race of competing for talent in SV. I really wonder what goes through the mind of some of these moronic execs when they make moves like this.

<comment><USER8> Out of curiosity, how does the process of job hunting work in the Ontario area if they get a job in SV? Does the SV company offer a visa permit or does the student apply for work permit in advance?

<comment><USER9> In almost all cases a work permit must be tied to a job offer, so it's not possible to apply for a work permit in advance.

You interview, you get the offer, and the lawyers at the company apply for the visa for you.

There are some exception cases where an open-ended visa is possible, but this is uncommon - but if you're famous in the industry you may qualify.

<comment><USER8> Thank you, Jerry that was very helpful!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Now that they've gone to the expense of moving their remaining 30 employees to San Francisco and have demonstrated such incredible loyalty to their employees, let's see how many of those remaining 30 take advantage of the many opportunities in the Valley to jump ship.

<comment><USER11> I was apart of the reddit exodus when they closed the Salt Lake City and New York City offices (I was in SLC.) It only took me 90 days which was the minimum requirement to not have to pay your moving expenses back. Since then, which happened in January 2015, I would roughly estimate that 50-60% has turned over at reddit.

All of this to say it typically doesn't end well for the company unless this is what they're planning on.

<comment><USER12> To be clear, you took the relo package, waited the minimum number of days, then jumped ship?

<comment><USER11> The answer to your question is yes, that's the way it worked, but I didn't do it intentionally. My next company just happened to call right around then.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> If anyone whose been let go by Joist is reading this: I'm a developer with Amazon in Toronto. There's a lot going on here- 300 developers in 4 or 5 major divisions doing all kinds of interesting stuff. The pay's good (for Toronto), we're well located (beside Union station), and of course we're hiring.

My username, but at my company's name, dot-com. Happy to chat by email, but I'll link you to our jobs site: [https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?location%5B%5D=toronto- can...](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/search?location%5B%5D=toronto- canada&category%5B%5D=software-development)

<comment><USER13> Is it different than Amazon Seattle? I mean, is there a reasonable balance between work and life?

<comment><USER14> At least on my floor most people leave at around 6.

<comment><USER15> arriving at?

<comment><USER14> 9-10am

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is some nasty stuff.

I feel sorry for the guy literally working there less then a day and getting the boot.

Shows some really serious problems in management. Who the hell hires people when they know very well they won't stay and make the whole staff redundant. Well, except for friends and family of course. Either it was a lack of communication between management and HR, or they just really didn't give a flying f*ck.

Another grim story about startup life. Not everything that has four legs is a unicorn apparently.

<comment><USER17> I know someone who left a finance job in NYC to move to London. Was fired in his first week; the trading desk he had joined was abruptly closed down. I guess senior management kept the plans secret from the line managers who kept on hiring without knowing what was coming. So I don't think this sort of thing only happens in start-ups (if anything, I would guess this type of thing is more likely to happen in a large company where your hiring manager is several levels down from the CEO and might not have any idea that his business unit is about to be closed/divested/relocated/etc).

<comment><USER18> That's awful; not least because (depending on their role) gardening leave might apply, preventing them from getting a job in the finance industry for months

<comment><USER19> The company should be responsible for lost wages due to the solicited employee's detrimental reliance on the company's representations.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Surely it's harder to get talent in the bay area? Lots of competition for staff and you can't attract people there because those who want be there would have already gone for one of the other companies.

What's always interesting is that every startup is building a world class team with some of the best developers in the world. Surely every startup can't hire the best because the best is finite, otherwise they'd be hiring the average.

If a company which does something in the diy space wants the best of the best then who is actually developing the languages and tooling? If the best developers are helping my tiler to invoice me then who is working machine learning, software to cure cancer, language design, software to control space travel, etc?

We can't all be the best, and sometimes you've gotta think. I help people in the construction industry, I'm not Google, and in fact it's irresponsible of me to try and hire the best people because they're going to do so much more for society working somewhere else.

</comment><comment><USER21> This is a good example of why you should treat interviews as a two way street. Don't just worry about convincing them that you are the right candidate. You should also try to determine if they are the right employer.

<comment><USER13> I view unsuccessful interviews as a way to see some city I wouldn't have otherwise visited and more importantly get experience with current job interview styles. It takes time, but it's not a total waste. Though, some companies make it hard or take very long to get travel reimbursement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This has nothing to do with hiring and everything to do with finding a buyer. A lot of companies are told by potential buyers "if you were in SV we would buy you". Relocating lets them cut head count, improve financial outlook (new cost structure) and get closer to a potential acquisition. Definitely in the interest of the investors.

</comment><comment><USER23> I came to the valley in a forced relocation some time ago. In that case, we also lost >50% of the team, including engineering. (I stayed until my green card came through then jumped ship.) It was clear, though, that the VPs and up didn't care, because they had their heart set on being Silicon Valley Executives, and damned if they were going to let the rank-and-file get in their way. They were so caught up in the glory of VC and speeding down 280 that they were not interested in the business argument. And as for the departing staff? "It's Silicon Valley, we can easily replace staff"

Here I get a sense of the same story. There is no way it's difficult to hire talent in Toronto, which consistently ranks as one of the most desirable cities in the world. A simple Google search also will produce hundreds, if not thousands, of articles about how the Canadian immigration system is a breeze compared to the US's. Thus I believe this executive team is the same as my own - determined to be 'San Francisco startup CEO', and damned the cost.

By the way, my company's technology fell behind its competitors' (perhaps because of the loss of talent?) and was sold off to a conglomerate ~5 years later, at the same valuation as it had pre-relocation. The CEO had departed the company by then.

<comment><USER9> Yeah, it doesn't feel like things really ever work out, retention-wise, for companies that move from elsewhere to SV. Invariably they make "cost of living adjustments" to comp, but never enough to actually be competitive with the infamous SF/SV market, and so their talent drains as soon as they set foot in the Bay Area.

This particular news about Joist is just confusing - it looks like they've laid off a _huge_ portion of their staff, with no replacements on the immediate horizon. Doesn't this mean that the business has effectively ground to a halt while they re-hire in SV?

It sounds less like a move and more like a reboot.

<comment><USER23> It does sound like they kept most of their engineers, and shed mostly CS staff - which shows a remarkable disdain for those positions. I would be very nervous about working for this company in one of those positions in the future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> comment in that thread by James

 _Half the team were employees in every legal definition of what makes an employee (they deducted and punished "independent contractors" which you can only do with employees" \- as the case was with Uber and they settled) but were categorized as "Independent Contractors" until April, they were forced to sign new contracts saying they employees but were under "probation" for another 3 months, so until the end of June. They planned this from the beginning, so they didn't have to have a lawsuit when they did this and say "hey you signed a contract" .... forced signed, they changed the pay structure in May without a change in contract either. These employees only got 2 weeks, despite being a week and a half away from passing probation._

Does anyone know if this is true, because this is really poor behavior.

</comment><comment><USER24> > _to achieve our vision for Joist, we need the best talent in the world_

This is a standard mantra of startup lore, but if I put on my nitpicking hat, is it strictly true?

I mean we're not talking about the Manhattan Project here.

Plus it's not as though there isn't _intensely fierce_ competition for talent in the valley. Just because a lot of talented people are there, doesn't mean you'll get to hire them. The "best talent in the world" is already bid up to high levels by those few companies in the Bay Area who are straddling rivers of gold.

Where I work, we have offices all over the world, including one here in NYC and another in Toronto. Because of the timezone alignment and relatively short travel times, we're now experimenting with more and more remote pairing to share projects between the two offices.

In Joist's position I might have considered opening an NYC office instead. It's not as though this city lacks for talent either and if they feel like paying a lot for it, the finance folks have kindly bid up top performers for them. They can get all the difficulties of hiring in the valley, but much closer to home.

<comment><USER25> The question to ask anyone who claims they only hire the best is, "How do you make sure of that?"

They should have an answer, and it needs to be a good one.

<comment><USER24> We used to have a question for interviewers where I work: "Will this person raise the average?"

I used to detest it. I left no shortage of smartarse remarks about infinite limits in a finite world.

In fact nobody really liked that question and it was eventually removed in favour of variations on the core question: _do you want to work with this person?_

<comment><USER25> > "Will this person raise the average?"

"Do half of you think you're dumber than this guy?"

It's a great question.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Odd decision.

If they were willing to pay silicon-valley level salaries in Toronto, they would have no trouble getting senior talent.

But they will be forced to pay silicon-valley level salaries in San Francisco anyways.

<comment><USER27> And they're likely not gonna be able to offer enough to separate themselves from the sea of companies there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Why not run operations separately (those with limited ability to relocate, mentioned in article) from technology (those with easier access).

A 2-site center with good right people and good workflows (and established, in this case) brings compounded gains. A 90 people company is well above the border-line in establishing dual-site offices.

</comment><comment><USER13> > we need the best talent in the world

So why didn't they allow people to remote from Toronto?

<comment><USER29> Because that statement has absolutely no basis in reality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Luckily lots of companies in Toronto are hiring and are taking advantage of this opportunity to recruit the people affected by this move.

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23joist60](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23joist60)

<comment><USER13> I've always wondered what happened to the hardware and software talent from RIM, now that they've pretty much stopped producing anything useful.

<comment><USER31> This guy worked at RIM back in the day. Amazingly talented.

[https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel](https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel)

<comment><USER23> We must always take some time to enjoy his seminal work, the BlackBerry cannon. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1239rkV8bQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1239rkV8bQ)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Isn't this bad precedent? If they move to SF area would talented programmers still want to work for them?

It seems like they are a company you can't trust (from what I read in the comment section in that link)

</comment><comment><USER32> I interviewed with Joist 2ish years ago but after the first interview I didn't think the culture was conducive to my career goals. News like this makes me feel like I dodged a bullet.

<comment><USER33> Getting any tech job at this point in time is simply a matter of which bullet you will finally, defeatedly choose not to dodge. Every company wants your fealty, overt signals that you'll cower yourself to them, much, much more than any kind of technology competence or aptitude.

It's either this, or a person hasn't had enough experience yet to know this, and so they still have bright-eyed optimism that _this one company_ is _the_ one that's going to elevate their career, treat them in a minimally acceptable manner, etc., and you can bet the recruiting staff is banking on finding these people. It's very depressing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> The comment thread on /r/toronto was not particularly friendly towards Joist. [https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4pa6fp/joist_lays_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4pa6fp/joist_lays_off_60_employees_as_company_relocates/)

</comment><comment><USER35> Just going to leave this here:

[http://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/waterloo/](http://www.google.com/about/careers/locations/waterloo/)

[https://www.google.com/about/careers/jobs#t=sq&q=j&li=20&l=f...](https://www.google.com/about/careers/jobs#t=sq&q=j&li=20&l=false&jlo=en- US&jl=43.653226%3A-79.38318429999998%3AToronto%2C+ON%2C+Canada%3ACA%3ACA%3A19.271436077549094%3ALOCALITY&jl=43.4642578%3A-80.5204096%3AWaterloo%2C+ON%2C+Canada%3ACA%3A%3A5.732117171117123%3ALOCALITY&jld=10&)

(Search above includes both Tornoto and Waterloo, but Waterloo is the main engineering office in the area.)

</comment><comment><USER36> I've worked with Joist's CTO before and he's got a very high ethical standard and strong commitment to teams he's a part of. I'm sure this decision was not an easy one.

Bottom line, we need freer trade to make international boundaries irrelevant to business.

<comment><USER37> His company just hired a couple of people and let them go a week later in a layoff. Clearly, the problem is the international trade system, nothing to do with management's ethics or lack of commitment to its team members.

OK...

<comment><USER36> I can't speak for the ethics of the other members of the management team, but I think it's unreasonable to assume that the decision was made for any other reason than necessity.

It may be that the decision to hire new people a week earlier was out of optimism that moving to the bay area was not going to be necessary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Why don't they just open a US office and get their "senior talent" there, if it's that easy to hire them in SV? And if it is easier, why would they cost more in SV? Maybe because there's competition?

Also, it's a bit of a cliche that you need the best people to be successful. Organisation is far more important. That other cliche that the team is more than the sum of its parts is far more true.

I moved abroad with a very small team a few years ago. It totally broke the culture. People went on intellectual holiday, and haven't recovered. We also became insanely insular, not getting any real inputs from other financial industry insiders.

<comment><USER27> Investors want access to the founders, and so they have to be in SF.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I have to imagine they're going to have trouble finding talent in San Francisco for the same reason they have trouble finding talent in Toronto. It's not exactly a non-competitive area.

</comment><comment><USER40> They might have access to more "top talent", but there will be 10x more companies after each of those 30 remaining employees as well who I'm sure will leave this caring company as soon as they get green cards.

</comment><comment><USER41> > Kathan told BetaKit that the "incredible difficulty" of acquiring senior- > level talent in Toronto

As some companies are (finally) starting to realize, there are incredibly talented people all over the world, who are not within 1.5 hours of your office. Allowing them to work remotely opens your company up to a much higher caliber of talent for the same, if not lower, cost. The tools are out there now and they work well. I have a distributed team of developers for my small consulting company, and I feel no pressure to open an office any time soon.

EDIT: Why was this post flagged? Comments now disabled?

<comment><USER42> Another option: offer SF "senior-level talent" salaries in Toronto. They'll be spending more than this by relocating and then hiring down there anyway. I expect they'd find that there's plenty of talent already in Toronto, or willing to move.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that the move to SF is more about image than about whom they can hire.

<comment><USER43> I'm not sure. If you're in San Francisco you can hire from any major metropolitan area in North America, and probably the world. Relocation tends not to be that big of an issue - it's Silicon Valley, there's tremendous opportunity. It's not just that the "talent" is already in SF, it's that the talent from all over the world is drawn to the Valley by brand recognition alone.

<comment><USER44> I disagree, I know a lot of people who reluctantly moved to the Bay Area for salary who would rather be elsewhere. The Bay Area appeals to some people, but not everybody

(also, hey Keith :))

<comment><USER43> Yeah, but the question here isn't "Bay Area" v "Everywhere Else", it's "Bay Area" v "Toronto". Toronto has lower salaries, colder weather, and generally fewer investors that are more risk-averse (which puts companies there at more risk existentially, especially in early stages). It's a beautiful city, I love Toronto, I was born and grew up there. But there's a lot of work to be done to make it competitive with the Bay Area.

The saving grace is this: I imagine the counterintuitive first step of continuing to bolster Toronto's tech scene is actually efflux of talent towards the Bay Area. The few who do "strike oil" in SV are more likely to direct some of that capital back home, make bigger bets, and mentor entrepreneurs there.

<comment><USER42> Of course, your first qualm (lower salaries) was exactly what the comment said to remove by providing SF "senior-level talent" salaries. USD-converted rates and all. Quality of life in Toronto with those salaries would be excellent, and I think it would attract a lot of talent.

Though you're right - the cold did drive me away.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Expanding the Dell Portfolio of Ubuntu Laptops and Workstations - <AUTHOR> http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs/direct2dell/b/direct2dell/archive/2016/03/10/expanding-the-dell-portfolio-of-ubuntu-laptops-and-workstations <comment><USER2> I'm severely disappointed that their "developer" edition XPS 13 can only be configured with a touchscreen</comment>


Cambridge Analytica bought "consumer and lifestyle" information on U.S. voters - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/06/cambridge-analyticas-nix-said-it-licensed-millions-of-data-points-from-axciom-experian-infogroup-to-target-us-voters/ <comment><AUTHOR> The original title is too long for HN, I'd synthesized on from the lede 'graph.

Title: Cambridge Analytica's Nix said it licensed 'millions of data points' from Acxiom, Experian, Infogroup to target US voters

Lede: _[O]ne nugget of information Nix let slip were the names of specific data aggregators he said Cambridge Analytica had bought "consumer and lifestyle" information on U.S. voters from, to link to voter registration data it also paid to acquire — apparently using that combined database to build models to target American voters in the 2016 presidential election, rather than using data improperly obtained from Facebook._</comment>


Why Hiring for Start-ups is so Hard Right Now. - <AUTHOR> http://ryanspoon.com/blog/2011/03/06/tech-hiring/

<comment><USER2> An unmentioned reason it's hard for startups to hire, is because most startups sound lame. Very few programmers dream about moving to Atlanta to work 12 hours a day at a startup for corporate marketers using Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER3> When I read recently that the average pay for Valley developers was around $100k, I balked.

In the DC area, I don't know of many 'good' developers making less than that, and I'd wager to say that most of them don't possess the core competencies required to work somewhere like Google, for less money. The soft cap around here is closer to $160-170k for a good developer, working for a regular job where you can work 8 hours and go home at the end of it.

Hell, if you're clearable, and do work in security, the cap goes way up.

<comment><USER4> I'm curious what the age and experience of these developers is... because I'm also in the D.C. area, and of all of my friends who are relatively recent graduates (2004-2007), absolutely none of them are making 160-170k. Some even work for major defense contractors with top secret clearance, and don't make that much money.

<comment><USER3> So, the general mantra for defense contractors is that fresh college grads are hired to do work for very very cheap rates, and are given workloads that are near impossible to sustain. The churn rate on that sort of position is very high, but the ones that last more than three or so years who are able to negotiate a decent rate will definitely end up with 6-figure salaries.

To put it in perspective, I'm 33, and most of the peers of mine I speak of are loosely similar in age. That said, I had a friend of mine who was hired to the company I was working for at $40k (recent college grad, absolutely zero tech skills, but otherwise hard-charging, motivated and eager to learn) and within a year of my advice, his salary had been chipped up to $85k a year.

A part of it is obviously being able to market yourself personally, and a big part is actually being able to deliver -- a lot of defense / federal work is actually structured such that you can't succeed, so working against that is non-trivial -- but yeah, generally speaking, the money will come.

Long story short, with three years of experience and references (and a good reputation) working in contracting, you should be asking for at least $90k. The real trick in defense contracting though is that you become more marketable the wider your knowledge set, which is counter to almost everywhere else wherein your pay is derived from the depth of your knowledge.</comment></comment></comment>


World feared China over coronavirus, but now the tables are turned - <AUTHOR> https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/world-feared-china-over-coronavirus-but-now-the-tables-are-turned <comment><USER2> This will go back and forth for years.

The truth is the world is too complex and both sides will make mistakes.

Thanks to complexity, the solutions will be incomplete and half baked. Such solutions will create their own issues that can compound the original issues.

The CHOICE will always be to spend time highlighting each others weaknesses, mistakes, indulge in blame games OR to admit certain problems are above everyones pay grade and should not be touched until simpler subsets of such problems are handled.

As anyone anywhere in the world who has lived in a dysfunctional family knows, hard problems cant get solved when mom and dad don't trust or respect each other.</comment>