Judge orders tech company to release Web user data from anti-Trump website - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/judge-orders-tech-company-to-release-web-user-data-from-anti-trump-website/2017/08/24/19abeac4-88e7-11e7-a50f-e0d4e6ec070a_story.html <comment><USER2> I'm not really surprised at this. I was in DC for the inauguration at an officially permitted protest. Afterwards I'm heading back on the Metro with a small sign saying "illegitimate president." When I get to the platform level there are several armed people in camoflauge, I'm assuming military, but I'm not 100% positive. I'm told by one of them that I need to leave the station immediately. I responded "is this a joke?" (Hindsight 20/20 that probably wasn't the best idea) and she says "no" as more armed people start approaching. Needless to say I left the station, but at that moment I realized something was different this time. You may disagree with the message I was carrying, but having military (or their look-a-likes) booting out people with messages against the official government line is pretty scary.

<comment><USER3> Stuff like this is why we need to have more political discussions on HN. If we don't talk about these issues openly and try to come up with solutions, we will look back and wonder how we managed to spend this era of USA's transition to fascism discussing utterly trivial stuff like the latest JavaScript frameworks.

To paraphrase the famous saying, evil succeeds when good men and women do nothing. I have seen this happen in my own country. Don't want to see it happen in the USA as well.

<comment><USER4> The same reason the Go 1.9 changelog won't be discussed in political forums, opinions on USA's political landscape surely has a better home on the Internet than here.

<comment><USER2> Most sites are either echo chambers or fighting cages. The civility of Hacker News makes it a great place for not having shouting matches. Perhaps you know of other political sites with a HN-like community?

<comment><USER5> > The civility of Hacker News makes it a great place for not having shouting > matches

Maybe, but maybe we'll lose this civility if we encourage this type of discussions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is terrifying; am I reading it correctly that the government is, on behalf of the President, going after people who have opposed him and is starting a register maybe of those persons who hurt the feelings of the glorious leader? I wonder how far down the rabbit hole we are going :-(

<comment><USER7> While I am strongly opposed to this warrant as being ridiculously too broad, I think you are off the mark.

The government is not investigating those who hurt Trump's feelings (does he have any? sorry :) ). It is the law enforcement that is going after violent rioters whatever their political views are. I hope it does and keeps doing it every time there is a violent riot.

To me, the problem is in trying to grab a lot of private information in the hopes of easily finding leads. Instead they should focus on other sources: I suspect DC has all sorts of video monitors and was swarming with agents during the inauguration. Cannot this serve as the source of leads? Maybe cops can walk around some more and talk to people? I doubt a crowd can riot without leaving traces to the identities of a number of rioters. My 2c.

<comment><USER6> Hmmmm. Seems like a really really big coincidence, but okay. I presume this information will be released by the court once it's used in evidence or can it be sealed only for this dubious case.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's lots of disturbing internet precedents being set in the last few weeks, both legal and corporate policy. I try not to be hyperbolic but I really am beginning to worry about the future of freedom of expression and association on the net.

<comment><USER9> I don't think its hyperbole. This is deeply concerning. We're entering a new era of authoritarianism.

<comment><USER10> More accurately we're entering a new era of politically slanted selective memories.

See: The bulk phone data collection programs instituted by the Patriot Act, the vast expansion of NSA data collection (of us all) under the Obama administration, the straight-to-the-wire tapping of critical internet infrastructure and providers such as Google, Microsoft etc. enabled by the establishment of the secret FISA court which has never denied a warrant, and so much more.

Let's also not forget the persecution endured by the whistleblowers for the above institutions by the Obama regime.

Set your partisan, hyperbolic "outrage" aside.

<comment><USER11> Should we not be outraged though? Everything listed in both the patent and the grandparent is worrying to me. I feel like I owe 80% of my identity to my activities and time on the Internet. Many my age feel the same.

My home is under attack.

<comment><USER12> The thing is that it has been under attack for a long time now, and acting as if some new threat is active is disingenuous and partisan.

<comment><USER13> I don't think people are acting as if it's a new threat, but rather alarmed that it's reached the levels it has.

That is _new_ , even if it has been ramping up a long time.

<comment><USER10> What stands out to me personally about this is that I'm 99% sure the administration could have silently achieved the same results through a FISA ordered warrant, but chose to go public in what I'm perceiving to be sending a message.

The Obama administration also sent messages but they seem to have been ignored willingly or not. Remember when the intelligence services entered the offices of the free press in the U.K. and forced the destruction of computer equipment?

The warning signs have been here for years. If the loud mouthed Trump is what triggers a movement to change things then so be it.

<comment><USER14> > Remember when the intelligence services entered the offices of the free > press in the U.K. and forced the destruction of computer equipment?

This was not under any direction from President Obama, this was GCHQ as most of the Snowden leaks were their documents.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> How did this travesty pass 4th Amendment muster?

"Yes Mr. Bar Owner, a few of your patrons stole a car a few weeks back. We'll need the names and addresses of all the people who visited this place for the last year please."

<comment><USER16> Wait, don't the police get similar information dumps from similar fact patterns kind of routinely? I know they can't properly use dragnet searches as a _starting point_ for an investigation, but if they have a reasonably specific criminal inquiry they're pursuing, can't they get their hands on a lot of stuff?

I'm not sure the fact pattern you're providing really illustrates the concern.

Rather, I think the concern is that the prosecutors have what appears to be a very diffuse criminal inquiry, and that the specific information they're looking for has a clear side-effect of intimidating lawful protesters. The concern is that the "investigation" is a pretense for intimidation.

You can't say that about the police investigating bar patrons for a specific car theft or whatever.

<comment><USER15> > Wait, don't the police get similar information dumps from similar fact > patterns kind of routinely?

It does, and that's bad. Hopefully more people start realizing this.

> The concern is that the "investigation" is a pretense for intimidation.

Absolutely, and that's the toxic cherry on this poisoned cake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Dreamhost is a hosting provider. Why do they keep these records in the first place and especially over six months later? It seems to me that there will be a big market for hosts that don't keep such logs or delete them after a specified period where they might be useful to debug issues (24-48hrs).

<comment><USER18> They received a preservation order requiring they do not delete the logs for this domain for period of time prior to the inauguration.

<comment><USER19> How is that legally sound?

<comment><USER20> _18 USC § 2703(f) - A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process._

<comment><USER19> OK, let me be more specific. How is the request legally sound?

<comment><USER20> I don't understand your question. What's there to be legally sound about? The Feds make a request, the site has to comply.

<comment><USER19> Why are they allowed to request this with no reason? Why can the government dictate what I'm doing with no legal basis?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Every week we're seeing more and more news like that - whether its the government or internet companies - in which people's right to privacy and to freedom online are being severely threatened. I'm not an american, but I grew up seeing the USA as an example of freedom and progress. It's very sad that this is becoming less and less true every passing day.

We must build a decentralised web. Now.

<comment><USER22> The outrage on this site is more selective than I would have anticipated. If you think your rights have only been eroded over the last few weeks, you've been drinking kool-aid.

<comment><USER20> The parent's post makes zero reference to how long they think this has been going on.

<comment><USER22> The GP starts his post with "every week," and I interpreted it as being structured to indicate a recent trend.

It is ambiguous, I admit, but I don't think I'm reaching with my understanding.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> >Prosecutors' original request in July would have yielded IP addresses for about 1.3 million users of the site, court filings show.

Whether I agree or not, here is another example of sensationalism which has made me distrustful of news media. How many of those "1.3m users" were actually unique?

</comment><comment><USER19> This is absolutely insane. I hope this eventually reaches an appeals court that understands the 4th amendment.

</comment><comment><USER23> Note to self: purge records. Religiously.

You can't hand over what you don't have.

<comment><USER24> One more reason (other than data breaches) for why services should look for ways not just to minimize storage of records and data on users that they don't _absolutely need_ to provide the service and that alone, but also to offer users way to encrypt the data with their own key.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Buried in the article is a key detail.

>Prosecutors earlier this week scaled back their request and changed it to seek emails associated with Disruptj20.org and email addresses of third parties associated with the website, such as individuals who volunteered to help provide supplies or support to rioters.

>As part of his ruling, Morin ordered prosecutors to tell him who was going to review the data DreamHost provides and, once that information is found, explain to him why prosecutors deem the information "critical" to their case.

>Under Morin's ruling, any information prosecutors find unrelated to the rioting would be sealed and could not be shared by prosecutors with anyone else or any other government authority.

<comment><USER22> >Under Morin's ruling, any information prosecutors find unrelated to the rioting would be sealed and could not be shared by prosecutors with anyone else or any other government authority.

May as well be unsealed because of parallel construction.

<comment><USER25> If they want to do parallel construction they can already get the base information a handful of other ways that don't as directly open them up to the allegation of parallel construction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I wonder if this isn't part of the games that prosecutors play. It seems like prosecutors might request the largest amount of data possible, knowing that someone will object and they'll get only a fraction of that.

In general the logic in the article doesn't follow. It says 200 people have been charged, so why not request information relating only to those 200 people? Regardless, internet messages can't prove participation in a violent riot, so I would assume the prosecutors have other, harder, evidence. if not they're just wasting everyone's time.

</comment><comment><USER27> why does the site seem like a place to investigate a riot? were there posters saying "I'm leaving now to go riot"?

If there is nothing specific, then why is this allowable at all?

And if there is something specific, then why can't they request those specific messages?

<comment><USER28> DisruptJ20 appears to have been created for the quite specific purpose of organising people to disrupt the presidential inauguration through illegal "direct action" tactics, with particular focus on teaching people to interfere with police checkpoints, resist arrest, etc. (By the way, remember those photos of the endless empty seats at the inauguration parade? The site in question has a post up bragging about how they shut down most of the security checkpoints, stopping people from entering: [https://archive.is/SZwAO](https://archive.is/SZwAO) For some reason that didn't make the press, then or now.)

<comment><USER29> I suspect because it's a complete and utter lie and there's no evidence to support it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> The article is pretty vague on the specifics of the ramifications of the new request. It says 1.3 million, but that seems to be in reference to the broader request. From what I can tell the more narrow request both narrows down the timeframe, and specifies disruptj20.org visitors? It's hard for me to tell from the article.

</comment><comment><USER31> I am email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER32> Pretend we're talking about Daily Stormer and Charlottesville and I bet you'd see things differently.

<comment><USER33> "Yes Mr. Bar Owner, a few of your patrons incited a racist mob a few weeks back. We'll need the names and addresses of all the people who visited this place for the last year please."

Nope, I still feel the same. It's going too far.

<comment><USER34> Pretend further that an angry mob at work would get you fired if they don't like your stance on this issue.

<comment><USER35> Pretend they have first amendment rights to tell you to your face and through their actions that your opinion is garbage and not something they respect.

*adding: I find it amazing some people are up in arms about people getting fired for their opinions, maybe you should direct your anger to "Right to Work" laws anti-union folks have pushed down our throats everywhere?

There used to be a due process before someone was fired, I wonder where that went and who took it away?

<comment><USER36> At work, your free speech rights are under the limitations of your employer. You should do some reading on the concept of positive vs negative rights.

<comment><USER37> Pretty sure nobody in Charlottesville was actually at work at the time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> > Prosecutors John Borchert and Jennifer Kerkhoff argued that their request > had to be somewhat broad because they have no idea who was associated with > the rioting through the website until they review the data.

For people who think this is wrong, assuming you accept the premise that they should be investigating rioters, what alternative is there to find out who they are?

<comment><USER39> In the old days before computers, I assume, one wouldn't have to hand over all "database" records. If one were being requested to hand over all patient records, that would probably be a small mountain of data.

I think technology has made data very easy to transport, and modern day governments have taken advantage of this sort of fishing expedition.

<comment><USER40> This isn't true. Even 10 years ago it was pretty normal for litigation involving the SEC to routinely have half a million or more hard copy pages shipping between law firms and the gov't, and 10 years ago about half of all documents that printing and scanning vendors were handling in discovery were paper. The American legal system and US-based law firms are notorious for that sort of thing. See also Iron Mountain.</comment></comment></comment>


A doctor who helped defeat smallpox explains what's coming - <AUTHOR> https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-interview-larry-brilliant-smallpox-epidemiologist/ <comment><USER2> Good read!

CNN calls out gashlighting and untruths that makes employees stoop to becoming puppets in order to work effectively around the person:

[http://www.edition.cnn.com/2020/03/19/politics/donald- trump-...](http://www.edition.cnn.com/2020/03/19/politics/donald-trump- coronavirus-china/index.html)

Media is experiencing what it's like to be the target of _gaslighting_ (yeah, sounds funny, but really _really_ isn't).

Hopefully this will raise awareness how detrimental and destructive such toxic behaviour is.

<comment><USER2> Contrast with: [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/angela-merkel- nails-...](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/angela-merkel-nails- coronavirus-speech-unlike-trump.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Thank you emrah.

This is definitely worth reading and sharing.

</comment><comment><USER4> This language needs more commas. It took me a while to realize the title has nothing to do with Doctor Who, the series.

<comment><USER5> I don't see a place to put commas that would help. "The Doctor, Who Helped Defeat Smallpox, Explains..." would refer to a subject already introduced, and there's no other way to separate "Doctor" and "Who" that I can see.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> > [Speaking of Trump] Saying it's fake, by saying this is a Democratic hoax.

False. Trump referred to "politicizing" of the coronavirus by Democrats as "their new hoax." He did not refer to the coronavirus itself as a hoax or call it fake. You can criticize that he did not take it seriously enough to shut down the economy sooner, and that'd be fair, but he did shut down air travel from China on Jan 31, for which he was shat on at the time, as usual. Had he not done that, we'd be dealing with 10x the number of cases now.

<comment><USER7> Semantics are crazy here. This is their new hoax to me means "Democrats are taking this and blowing it out of proportion." How long did Fox News spin this as a conspiracy and just like the flu and all is well before things got very bad? Where are the test kits? Why was South Korea able to recognize and respond with massive testing early but the US is not? And regarding his China shutdown he was shat on because it was too little too late not because it was considered too extreme. How many weeks or months were people unable to get tested unless they met too strict criteria? How many people came through us customs from Italy during its outbreak without an eyebrow raised or basic questioning? If we want to play Monday morning quarterback had he ordered screening early enough we'd be 10 times better than we are and maybe we could have contained it.</comment></comment>


Architecture of Nautilus, the new Dropbox search engine - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2018/09/architecture-of-nautilus-the-new-dropbox-search-engine/ <comment><USER2> Very interesting!

>For most documents, we rely on Apache Tika to transform the original document into a canonical HTML representation, which then gets parsed in order to extract a list of "tokens" (i.e. words) and their "attributes" (i.e. formatting, position, etc…).

How good is really Apache Tike at this? I've messed about but its hard to find solutions that cover the base cases.

What are the recommendations for covering lets say PDF, OpenXML, and ODF?</comment>


Signs of Covid infection may be hidden in speech signals - <AUTHOR> http://news.mit.edu/2020/signs-covid-19-may-be-hidden-speech-signals-0708 <comment><USER2> > They hypothesized that Covid-19 inflammation causes muscles across these > systems to become overly coupled, resulting in a less complex movement.

Is this due to the muscles being inflamed, or your brain not sending the correct message? The very first symptom I had of covid was having difficulty talking; I was struggling to come up with the words to say (I'm not the most articulate person at the best of times.) That progressed to my brain not working.</comment>


Taking a Naked Selfie? Your Phone Should Step in to Protect You - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/taking-a-naked-selfie-your-phone-should-step-in-to-protect-you/

<comment><USER2> What a terrible idea. Yes, let's program away personal responsibility and critical thinking, that'll surely help society progress towards a more positive future for everyone!

</comment><comment><USER3> This is not very far away from Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses and is possibly even more insane. I wonder if you can fool it with a towel?</comment>


Ask HN: Cities underserved by tech jobs? - <AUTHOR> This question came up in a meeting today and I thought I would ask the HN community for their insights. The company (could be any company but happens to be the one I'm currently working for) is in a position to open an office "anywhere" in the continental US. The projects this company takes on happen to involve embedded Linux systems and software defined radio systems, but lets not focus too much on the flavor of tech.
What cities in the US could be helped by having a company that was employing 30 - 50 technical workers (engineers) locate there? Are the cities already attractive to technical talent (already living out there) or willing to relocate there?
Everyone knows "Austin" or "Denver" or "Research Triangle Park" but how about other heartland cities? <comment><USER2> Atlanta has a budding tech scene. Georgia Tech is a great research institution and it happens to produce a bunch of radio engineers. I know several that work in the field of SDR / FPGA.

Atlanta is a great place to live. Super affordable cost of living, great food and music scenes, and offers a ton of things to do. It's a city in a forest -- there are so many trees it's unbelievable. There's lots of hiking, kayaking, climbing, and boating within an hour's reach of the city.

Atlanta has so much room for growth, too. People won't get priced out anytime soon.

There's a lot of diversity here, too! Ethnic, career, interest, lifestyle. You name it. Atlanta has the least amount of monoculture I've seen. There are so many different types of people here.

And I've already said it's cheap, but anecdotally: I own a 2bd/2ba 2,000 sqft condo in the city with 25' ceilings and floor to roof windows with city views. My mortgage is only $2,000/mo. It's directly on the Beltline, a mixed use running/biking trail that surrounds the city and is one of the best things about Atlanta. I run to work everyday.

I love the life here.

Come to Atlanta! We'd love to have y'all! I'd be happy to give you a tour if you come out this way.

<comment><USER3> Atlanta was pretty hot and humid when I visited. I could see it being OK to live in, but I wouldn't spend as much time outside as I could on the west coast.

Also, if I was going to live in a southern city with the heat and humidity, I think New Orleans would be way more exciting. I haven't been there since Katrina, but the cafes in the French quarter (and even outside of it) are almost other worldly.

<comment><USER4> Having lived in Atlanta and visited New Orleans 2 years ago, I'm more in agreement with GP. New Orleans seems interesting for a vacation but I can't imagine actually living anywhere near the French Quarter. This article about Amsterdam[1] sums up what I think it might be like.

Not to mention Georgia Tech and Emory are world-class institutions. Atlanta and the surrounding suburbs are home to many Fortune 500 company headquarters (Coca-Cola, UPS). New Orleans, and Louisiana doesn't really have anything like that to compare, AFAIK.

1\. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/04/amsterdam- brit...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/04/amsterdam-british- tourists-overwhelmed-bad-behaviour)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> ABQ.

It's Denver with better weather and far lower levels of congestion and cost of living.

Someone was crowing about a mortgage of $2000/mo. for a 2000sf condo. That'd be about $1200/mo. here, plus it would be freestanding and come with a yard.

Airport is surprisingly versatile, with daily nonstops to all your favorites.

The mountains are every bit as impressive as Denver's, but half as far away a drive, half as crowded, and we have great river trails too. You will not find a more impressive array of history, culture, and food in this country.

You can _breathe_ here, with zero mold allergens, and thin dry air that takes a weight off your spirit. Since the cost of living here is so low, you can be poor here and feel rich. In Silicon Valley, you have to be very rich to not feel very poor. Even then, I'm not convinced even a multibillionaire out there feels as rich as I do here.

There's a reason they call it a sunny disposition, and while other areas in the mountain west tie ABQ for sunny days, nobody really beats it.

We have two Intel fabs, AFRL, two other national labs, plus a number of smaller commercial companies, but our industrial base is stagnating and slightly shrinking. Some talent is here, they work for peanuts, and ready to come on board without breaking six figures.

To an extent beyond most of the others on this list, NM is willing to shell out in terms of leases, build-to-suit, training, and tax incentives, especially for good-quality high-paying jobs. And 30-50 new jobs is not too small for us to notice or care.

<comment><USER6> For the rest of us not versed in city acronyms, ABQ is Albuquerque, New Mexico.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Chicago is a real city with skyscrapers and trains and everything. Any experience you want - whether white-picket-fence suburbia, downtown glass-and- steel high rise, or trendy urban neighborhood with street life - is available at within a reasonable housing and commute time budget. The tech opportunities there are concentrated in Office Space-type cost center IT on one hand, and commodities trading on the other, so an engineering-first company would be highly attractive. You might get some domain-specific talent re: radios from the ghost of Motorola.

Chicago belongs in the same breath as NY/SF/LA, so wouldn't be seen as a huge step down for someone relocating, but is drastically cheaper.

<comment><USER8> Hot and miserable in the summer and cold and miserable in the winter.

<comment><USER7> Heating and air conditioning are solved problems, unlike NIMBYism.

<comment><USER9> Only if you're spending all your time indoors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Oak Ridge, TN has a national lab campus with the fastest super computer in the world which is close to one of the only nuclear power plants planned to be constructed in the near future. There is relatively little VC funded tech compared to the huge amount of government funding. Low taxes, cheap power, plenty of water, and a high density of researchers make it seem like fertile ground to me.

</comment><comment><USER11> Madison, WI might not be as well known as it should. Big engineering, math, and CS programs at the university, but still limited tech-job listings. The state is only just beginning to come around to supporting startup businesses, so there is some buzz. Recently got a non-stop route to SFO.

Really great location, between a group of lakes, and some really great cultural options for a small city.

Epic is here. Some other names too but I thought someone should add it to the responses.

</comment><comment><USER12> Phoenix. Tons of transplants from SF have moved here already, ASU is nearby, Sky Harbor has tons of flights going to all of the tech hubs in the US, cost of living is affordable and there's a decent amount to do here as well.

We have a tech scene, but I wouldn't consider us a big hub at the moment. Most companies just have support or administrative staff here.

<comment><USER13> I was just in Phoenix last week after visiting the Grand Canyon.

I can't imagine _why_ someone would move from the 70 _F of SF to the 115_ F of Phoenix. Even at midnight it's still over 90*F.

This coming from someone who lives in DFW.

<comment><USER14> Why someone would move from SF to PHX area? ummm considering the average rent in SF is $3340[0] and the average rent in PHX is $955[1], I cant possibly imagine why someone would want to do that.

Plus PHX is really only that hot May to September. PHX is like other deserts and generally very pleasant outside of the summer with lots of sun, which isn't something you can always say about SF.

0: [https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market- trends/us/ca/sa...](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market- trends/us/ca/san-francisco/) 1: [https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market- trends/us/az/ph...](https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market- trends/us/az/phoenix/)

<comment><USER13> I'm sorry, I must not have been clear enough. I meant, why someone from SF, with perfect weather, would decide to move to Phoenix of all places.

Cheap land can be found in the vast majority of this country, Phoenix just seems like the polar opposite of climate from SF.

<comment><USER15> Wait... SF has perfect weather? I think you are excluding several months of rain and the surprising cold of the bay.

<comment><USER16> What rain are you talking about? In fact, we could use _more_ rain if anything. I can't even remember the last time it rained.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Tucson. We have the University of Arizona here but most of the city is plagued with terrible sales positions and very few tech jobs. Tech jobs here are limited to Raytheon, the university itself and the small IBM office out here.

<comment><USER18> I agree. I think the entire southwest in general from El Paso to Tuscon to ABQ is lacking in this area. It's what kept me from moving to an otherwise beautiful area.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Columbus, Ohio has the best quality of life I've ever experienced. I've lived in NJ/NYC, Boston, and now SoCal. If I could work for my company while living in Columbus, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

It actually reminds me a lot of Austin before people figured out that Austin was cool.

<comment><USER20> I can second this, having worked in tech in Columbus for a number of years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Rochester, NY. Very affordable real estate, many of the prime areas of the city and suburbs are served by gigabit fiber, and between local universities and industry a surprising amound of technical talent is present in the area: some recently graduated, some the legacy of Kodak, Xerox, and other older companies, and some from defense firms like Harris, ITT, etc. The quality of life is very high with good restaurants, many local parks, festivals, and strong cultural institutions (great indie cinema, and a world-class orchestra). The costs are low, and it's still reasonably close to NYC and Boston in distance and culture. Sure it has winter, but it also has <$200k Victorian homes and tree-lined streets.

<comment><USER22> Oh god no. Rochester is not a good place to move to if you have no one. Social life is very minimal and people are not that friendly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Chattanooga, city government and non profits are itching to be supportive, small but enthusiastic engineers community, super high quality of life.

<comment><USER24> The issue I have with TN is that it is still the Deep South. So is GA, but Atlanta provides a refuge.

<comment><USER23> Also, I was curious, and by the Wikipedia definition[1] TN doesn't qualify as "deep south". We definitely still have our share of problems and there are "southern" things that drive me crazy but it's not _quite_ as back woods as many people believe.

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_South)

<comment><USER24> I worked for a company based out of a TN so I was there a lot. I was the only Black person who worked at the entire company of 200+ people. When another Black guy I recommended was hired they always called me by his name. Someone asked were we related.

It wasn't bad, but I was there during the Presidential Election, it was....interesting.

<comment><USER10> There is a definite ultra conservative "culture fit" that is common in the business culture of the region. Newer companies don't seem to be effected.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> It seems like a mid sized Midwestern city could fit the bill. Grand Rapids, MI or Des Moines, IA both seem like good fits to me. (Colleges, low unemployment, spacious to support growth, ripe for more tech companies) I base this off the thought to "help the city". So a large Midwestern city (Chicago/Indianapolis/St Louis/Kansas City) would see little impact from as few as 50 workers. Likewise in a West Coast city with Bay Area expats. And East Coast with abundance of Gov't Contractor tech jobs. I don't know the South as well so can't speak to any good candidates there. Also am biased towards the Midwest.

<comment><USER26> I'd throw Omaha in that list as well. Three large to midsize universities within 1 hour, and there are few options outside of banks or insurance companies. The very few tech companies that I can think of in the area basically have their pick of graduates from the three universities. Anyone else has to look towards relocating if they don't want to work for one of the aforementioned banks or insurance companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Wilmington, NC[1].

Wilmington is a smaller city (population around 112,000) and doesn't have a great tech scene today - although it is growing. UNC-W has been doing a lot to support the local entrepreneurial scene and a thriving startup scene is emerging there. Even better, in Wilmington you have beaches all around: Wrightsville Beach, Carolina Beach, and Kure Beach right next door, and then you have Topsail Island to the north, and the Brunswick County Beaches (Long Beach, Yaupon Beach, Holden Beach, Ocean Isle Beach, Sunset Beach) just to the south. Calabash is 45 minutes away if you want real, honest-to-god, genuine Calabash style seafood.

Anyway, back to Wilmington itself... it has the "college town" atmosphere since UNC-W is right smack in the heart of town, so there's a thriving nightlife, especially downtown around Front Street and the river area.

And if you do need to pop up to RTP for something, you're only ~2 hours away via direct shot up I-40. Likewise, if you need to go to Barstow, CA for some reason, you just jump on I-40 and drive 2,554 miles and you're there!

Disclaimer: I'm a little biased, as I was born in Wilmington, grew up near Holden Beach, about 30 miles from Wilmington, and attended UNC-W. So Wilmington is "home" to me in a sense. Yes, I left for the greener pastures of RTP, but that was almost 20 years ago. If I were that age again, living in Wilmington now, I might just stay.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington,_North_Carolina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington,_North_Carolina)

</comment><comment><USER28> Reno, NV is growing a lot. Primarily engineers go to IGT or Bally's and work with slot machines, but the tech scene overall is growing. We have a great CS department at UNR and school is fairly cheap here. Taxes are low, but cost of housing is rising. Some of that is because of Tesla and Google. I think a lot of people are moving here from the bay because of housing costs.

Other nice aspects:

\- There are tons of breweries, restaurants, and bars littered through downtown/midtown.

\- We have a ton of festivals that shut down the streets downtown (Italian festival, chicken wing festival, hot august nights, brews and blues, and the rib cookoff).

\- The Truckee River runs right through downtown and makes for some very pretty views.

\- There's a huge art scene and a ton of blank walls on buildings are being covered in murals.

\- The weather is great all year round. Usually we hit 100s only for a week or so in the summer. It snows here but it melts in a day because we get so much sun.

\- We're within an hour's drive of Tahoe, other lakes, and a dozen ski resorts.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'd think just about anywhere in the Midwest with the possible exceptions of Chicago, Minneapolis/St. Paul and Madison, though the last two could potentially use a tad more diversity.

<comment><USER30> I was actually going to say Madison, WI. Its a great city, and leans heavy liberal. It is undersrerved by tech, but there are a lot of very smart people and a few amazing tech jobs. Diversity is huge, and a great local beer/restaurant scene too. Of course it's a college town, so a few negatives if you're a little past that demographic. However, very affordable living especially in the outskirts, even so far as Sun Prarier, Middleton, etc.

<comment><USER29> I love Madison. Visited a couple of times for interviews and I could easily see myself there if the opportunities weren't so limited.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Albany, NY.

Lots of technical people from semiconductor, IBM refugees and the various companies supporting state government. Possible destination to woo people sick of NYC and Boston.

</comment><comment><USER32> Southern Utah (Cedar City or St. George)... The area is growing, it's a skip and a beat to 'Silicon slopes' up north in Provo, and has decent weather. St. George you could save on utilities in the winter as you wouldn't need heat, but it gets hot in the summer. It's also 2 hours from vegas.

Cost of living is decent 4-5 bed homes run 200-300k. Rent is roughly 1200-1500 for a 3-4 bedroom townhome.

</comment><comment><USER33> Colorado Springs. There's a handful of tech companies but they're actively trying to court more. We just got a Formstack office recently. There are a handful of grants available at the state level as well. The community is one of the most open and giving I have worked in. Let me know if you want an intro to people at the Economic Development Office or otherwise.

</comment><comment><USER34> Champaign-Urbana, IL:

Top-notch university

Vibrant technology scene

Convenient to Chicago, Indianapolis, and St. Louis

Excellent cost-of-living

[http://champaignil.gov/choose-champaign/](http://champaignil.gov/choose- champaign/)

[http://researchpark.illinois.edu/about](http://researchpark.illinois.edu/about)

[http://researchpark.illinois.edu/news/champaign-named- fastes...](http://researchpark.illinois.edu/news/champaign-named-fastest- growing-city-illinois)

</comment><comment><USER35> Houston is going through big changes, the local economy is diversifying from oil into renewables and other sectors. There are quite a few maker spaces and meetups around here. There are lots of interesting startups, lots have to do with space, DoD, and energy, but there are other flavors too.

<comment><USER35> I also heard an interesting fact that per-capita there are more software engineers along the space coast in Florida than in SF.

<comment><USER36> Lots of defense contractors on both coasts in Florida.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Oklahoma City, OK / Tulsa, OK (yes it's a real city, no we don't all ride horses)

Decidedly not a "tech center", but we do have a very solid and thriving local tech community: [https://www.techlahoma.org](https://www.techlahoma.org)

</comment><comment><USER38> For "embedded Linux systems and software defined radio systems", Florida's Space Coast (Brevard county) makes sense. If you can be competitive, you might be able to swipe lots of people from Harris. They are in Melbourne (Florida!) and Palm Bay.

</comment><comment><USER39> Bloomington, Ind., would be helped by having your company there. Smaller than Indianapolis, but has a big upside: university, growing tech scene (co-work spaces, homegrown startups, Combine tech conference...), culturally more interesting as a whole than any other Indiana city.

And of course you're located not too far from major airports/large cities ... Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati, St Louis, Chicago

</comment><comment><USER40> Kansas City.

Great place to live, but tech dominated by a few large employers. Hell, I have +20 years RF hardware design experience (VLF - mmWave) and know some GNU Radio.

[https://github.com/madengr](https://github.com/madengr)

<comment><USER41> Yes! Kansas City is great. Friendly people, cheap housing, and centrally located so it's not more than a 4 hour flight no matter where you're coming from in the continental US.

Hardware engineers are not too hard to find out there, Garmin, Allied Signal and Honeywell are among the substantial employers. It's also Sprint's HQ, not that that's much to go on these days. And KU is less than an hour out so you'll have a consistently refreshed talent pool to draw form.

KC could really use a stronger tech scene -- it's had a few false starts but nothing that's really stuck so far.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Philadelphia is a really great city to live and work in my opinion. Good city density but not overcrowded, walkable, affordable, good public transit, diverse. Public schools aren't the best currently so many families with young children do end up moving to the immediate suburbs where schools are some of the best. Lots of colleges (UPenn, Drexel, Temple) to recruit from as you expand.

I'm not sure Philly would rank highest on the "could be helped" aspect since it has a decent business sector already, but the tech (especially startup) scene is just getting started compared to the tons of healthcare and finance firms.

</comment><comment><USER43> Detroit is such a great city. Housing is insanely cheap. Great for sports. Great lakes. Close to Canada so you can get cheap meds. You should consider it. They're really hungry for tech talent, and it's a swing state.

</comment><comment><USER44> If I were to start a technical company, I'd strongly consider Huntsville, Alabama. There's a large workforce of engineers due to NASA, Redstone Arsenal, and even further back TVA. For something like SDR and embedded, its pluck full of that kind of talent.

Within a thirty mile radius of Huntsville, you can find a small town that would welcome such a firm. A lot of the Huntsville workforce already has meaningful commutes. Some of it just because of congestion. Some because they already live in the boondocks. That was always part of the attraction in the early days of NASA.

</comment><comment><USER45> Queens, NYC, could use some love. Commutable from Manhattan and easily from Long Island (much less traffic by both ways), and the most diverse place in the world with great food.

<comment><USER46> Queens could also use better cross-town public transportation. It can take hours just to get to the other side of queens if you're taking public transportation. You _can_ drive in Queens, but parking will either be hundreds of bucks a month or very time consuming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The entire Mountain West. Bozeman has a pretty decent, and growing tech scene. Missoula is okay (shoutout Submittable and a few others).

<comment><USER25> This is interesting. I feel like they could play a role like Boise with Micron and the population boom. And support from the University as well.

<comment><USER47> Yeah, Boise is already exploding hence I didn't mention it (not familiar with the tech scene there, but I think it's one of the fastest growing cities in the country).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Pittsburgh, PA

<comment><USER49> It would be hard to call Pittsburgh underserved -- Google, Amazon, and Uber are all there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Des Moines, IA: [https://www.fastcompany.com/3056081/why-i-based-my-tech- comp...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3056081/why-i-based-my-tech-company-in- the-middle-of-iowa)

</comment><comment><USER51> Sacramento

<comment><USER52> Extremely underrated answer, and city. Sacramento IMO has the perfect balance of a nice summer (I love 80-90F temperature; yes I know it gets to 100+ on many days too) with good sunshine and not miserable fog, a little bit cold winter but not have to shovel snow (2 hours to Tahoe for snow), close enough to the SF Bay if you ever need to go there (an hour drive), good engineering talent (UC Davis graduates) and even a few existing tech/engineering companies to poach talent from (Intel etc.). House market is just beginning to get crazy but still very affordable especially if you compare it to SF Bay.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> If you want to test SDR, you want to be within driving distance of somewhere with low density of people to reduce background RF noise. I once visited a very odd bespoke WiFi Antenna maker, he lived out the back of beyond so he could do RF measurement on his wire thingummyjigs.

So I'd be chosing a mid-west population centre with good roads into the cornfields

</comment><comment><USER36> Tampa, FL

<comment><USER54> Agreed. Massive investment in the downtown area (there will be something like 15 cranes near downtown in the next year), great activities nearby, a low cost of living, and a (small) but growing tech scene.

Also home to one of the best rated airports in the US.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Buffalo is a undergoing a downtown Renaissance and has cheap real estate and a lot of technical talent being under utilized by banking Java applications. Come here you'll get great talent, great food, great culture, nys tax breaks, cheap real estate.</comment>


Being Crazy Is Noisy - <AUTHOR> http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/being-crazy-noisy

<comment><USER2> Sock puppet account here to protect privacy...

I often wonder how relevant someone's upbringing is in stories like this. I've been depressed and "heard" suicidal and self-hateful thoughts pretty much every day since I was 9 or 10. But I was raised in a small town in the Midwest by parents who would tell me (with the best of intentions) to "suck it up" and "get over it" when I was in a particularly deep or prolonged funk. I pretty much cried every day in 4th grade anytime I was alone due to being overwhelmed by how much I hated myself. Anytime something would happen, I'd think "you should kill yourself."

It never occurred to me that I might have a condition or that I was hearing voices. And perhaps I'm not, in the same way that this person is. I have no idea. All I knew was that I felt sad all the time, and others didn't seem to feel the same way. My only conclusion was that I had some weakness or flaw that other kids didn't have.

I subconsciously found coping mechanisms. First it was superhero comics and video games. Playing sports seemed to help a good bit, too, though I despised the monotony of it. Eventually, I found online porn, and that became my treatment of choice anytime I felt a funk coming on. This caused a good bit of guilt, though and has made dating difficult.

I went out east for college and was suddenly in a community where people like me were "diagnosed" and put on medication. I was surrounded by east-coasters on meds. There was a clinical solution for "being bummed out all the time." I'd never considered that I might have a mental illness that could be treated pharmacologically.

I thought about seeing a professional about my situation, but the downsides seemed and still seem pretty immense. Once you're officially diagnosed, your life changes forever. If I was diagnosed as clinically depressed or something more serious like the conditions the original author claims to have, wouldn't I be labeled a crazy person for life? And what if they recommended extensive, unpleasant treatments that would interrupt or seriously hamper my career or personal life? If I test positive for some serious mental illness, would the doctor be obligated to inform the state? My employer? My family?

And once you test positive, doesn't that become your identity? You are a crazy person, and your life revolves around that.

So when I read stories like this, my heart goes out to the person, but I also wonder how much of their situation was caused by environmental factors, specifically coming from a culture of clinical diagnosis and pharmacology. Had I been raised by different people in a different environment, I'd be taking lots of drugs and probably would have a few hospital stays under my belt. I would probably see myself as a crazy person and have a hard time getting work and supporting myself.

Instead, I'm an extremely high-functioning porn and work addict who suspects he has serious mental infirmities. I could deal with them, but it would require the full focus of my time and energies for years to do, and who knows how it'd turn out?

Not sure that's better.

<comment><USER3> I've never considered myself crazy, but I do have a very, very dark view of life. Feeling happy happens very rarely, never last more then a few hours at best, and just plain feels weird, wrong almost.

A recent medical problem however pushed me over the edge. I want crazy for a few weeks.

It was a terrifying experience. While I never heard other voices, I did hear a constant chorus of ideas very clear and very specific and boy did they ever make my usual dark view of life look positively joyous.

Added to that was a constant feeling of crippling fear, basically a continuous panic attack and insomnia.

That constant chorus of dark ideas was about every negative thing you can think of. It was in a way awe inspiring to see the sheer power of intellect, recollection and imagination my brain had to stitch together these incredibly creative and specific and deeply disturbing thoughts, at the rate of ~ 100 per second.

Functioning became almost impossible, and had it gone on for much longer I truly would have lost it. I was afraid to cross the street and come right back, that was a cripplingly terrifying task.

I was somehow able to keep showing up at work and could for very brief periods of time almost, just almost drown out the chorus by concentrating on programming.

Well I recovered from the medical problems and the craziness passed and I could sleep again and boy was I relieved, but happiness is still not something for me.

Except that now I make a conscious effort to be a more positive person.

It's not like a hippie sunshine and rainbows thing, I know there is a very powerful and very stubborn and very dark part of my subconscious. But I am not going to let that part of me run things. I make real everyday efforts to be less dark and cynical. And I expect to keep up that fight for as long as I live.

There was an article here about how positive affirmations can actually have negative effects for people with low self esteem. That rings very true for me. But I will not be dissuaded from trying to change. My superego is just as stubborn as my id, damn it.

The human brain is very flexible and how you view yourself and what you do can and will strongly influence who you are.

Just like long hours of sitting will mess up your lower back, if you just let your negative tendencies flow unchecked in the long term that will fuck up your personality.

Don't do that, make a conscious effort to better yourself. Even if you're a darkly cynical bastard like and me.

<comment><USER2> I hear ya, loud and clear. Was it a medication that led to the bad patch? I've never had the street problem but definitely had a fear of being seen in public that led to lots of alone time.

Your point about trying to be positive strikes a chord also. Folks who know me just a bit or only professionally consider me a relentlessly cheerful, encouraging person. I've always got something great and positive to say about a situation, no matter how bleak it is. In part, this is because just about anything is better than what I feel inside, so I'm able to spot the positive pretty easily. Also, it's partly an effort to will a certain view of reality into being. Nothing's great until someone labels it such.

The folks who really, really get to know me tend to get worn out once I let down the shell and let them see a bit of what's going on inside. In dating relationships I try to ease the other person into understanding how I get by, but even so, there comes a point where they "get it" and you see how disappointed they are. I've found the best approach is to just tell her that I have dark periods when nothing I say will be useful or productive, so I'm not going to say much.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Highly recommended read, just to remember that people like John are out there.

It is an amazing story. The more I think about it, the more I am amazed at the variety and magnitude of problems people face in their lives. I don't want to sound sympathetic. I don't know what to write. I should not have started writing this.

<comment><USER5> It is an amazing story-- although I wish the headline was more cognizant of the near-infinite variety of experience that you mention. "Crazy" isn't always noisy; sometimes it is quiet...

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> A very insightful comment on the article [[http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/being-crazy- noisy#c...](http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/being-crazy- noisy#comment-10132)] - And I quote -

"Not only I found the article very interesting, but the thing that struck me the most was its utter lucidity. How can one be in so much turmoil and yet be able to write such beautiful as well as clear, concise, and penetrating prose? The answer is, one can, and maybe the moral of the article is that one should not ask this question in the first place. Better still, perhaps the 'crazier' we are, the more lucid we are and that in itself can be the bane of our noisy lives."

</comment><comment><USER7> I found the part when he said he was not surprised that he was failing art class interesting--not surprised because he knows he's a failure, knows this because his voices tell him this.

The rhythm, the constant beat, of his negative voices seem to have rendered him unable to think rationally, to ask for proof of his assumed--all encompassing--failure, or to ever act in a positive way, and then to one day disprove his assumed--all encompassing--failure.

And the latter causes a self-fulfilling prophesy, which builds up more proof of his failure, and thus gets stronger and stronger.

</comment><comment><USER8> Great article. I have never looked to much into disorders like that and always thought that hearing voices that tell you to "kill yourself" is more of a popular myth. I though that one would usually hear just random things. Thank you for dispelling this for me. The guy also shows what it really means to overcome difficulties.

HN related, the brain is a very complex "computer" with its own bugs.

<comment><USER9> A number of neurological conditions such as Tourette's, Schizophrenia, and their friends seem to gravitate towards (and feedback on) inappropriate commentary and action. It's probably related to malfunctioning disinhibitionary mechanisms in the brain. The more you don't want to do them and the more inappropriate you know they are, the more frequently they occur and the stronger the urges become.

Ever see a disturbing image or hear a highly inappropriate joke or comment and then try to put it out of your mind, only to find that the harder you try to ignore it, the harder it becomes to ignore? The experience is similar.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> It seems like the story was cut short. It ends with "That would mess things up" and it seems like this story should go on a lot more.

<comment><USER11> I found myself expecting a happy or at least somewhat redeeming ending. There was none. I suppose that reflects the reality of this man's life.

<comment><USER12> The happy part is in the bio at the bottom where it say he holds a white collar job at a firm. Wow. When I grumble to myself about my ADHD again I am going to remember this man and realize what TRUE courage is.

<comment><USER13> I recently learned that the general view is 'Helping you _back_ to work' for people with mental health disorders.

But if you haven't already got a career when you become ill, it's virtually impossible to get a paying job - especially in computing. And that's something I'm trying to publicise and prevent.

<comment><USER9> I don't believe conditions like this are often sudden so much as a long time coming. Even folks with young adult onset bipolar disorder often have hints throughout their lives. That would suggest that it's not necessarily being afflicted that determines whether you develop a career.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Eggex(Oil shell): New syntax for regexes meant to be transpiled - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/oilshell/oil/blob/master/doc/eggex.md <comment><USER2> This reminds me of Raku's regexes/"rules".[1]

[1] [https://docs.raku.org/language/regexes](https://docs.raku.org/language/regexes)</comment>


The Planet faces 24 hours of downtime for 9000 servers in their primary datacenter - <AUTHOR> http://forums.theplanet.com/index.php?showtopic=90185

<comment><USER2> "Dear Valued Customers:

This evening at 4:55 in our H1 data center, electrical gear shorted, creating an explosion and fire that knocked down three walls surrounding our electrical equipment room Thankfully, no one was injured. In addition, no customer servers were damaged or lost.

We have just been allowed into the building to physically inspect the damage. Early indications are that the short was in a high-volume wire conduit. We were not allowed to activate our backup generator plan based on instructions from the fire department.

This is a significant outage, impacting approximately 9,000 servers and 7,500 customers. All members of our support team are in, and all vendors who supply us with data center equipment are on site. Our initial assessment, although early, points to being able to have some service restored by mid-afternoon on Sunday. Rest assured we are working around the clock.

We are in the process of communicating with all affected customers. we are planning to post updates every hour via our forum and in our customer portal. Our interactive voice response system is updating customers as well.

There is no impact in any of our other five data centers.

I am sorry that this accident has occurred and apologize for the impact.

Sincerely,

Douglas J. Erwin Chairman & Chief Executive Officer"

I am not happy.

<comment><USER3> Can't be helped really as they can't initiate their backup systems because of the fire departments orders.

I see webfaction is down as a result :/

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "We were not allowed to activate our backup generator plan based on instructions from the fire department."

That is the interesting bit. So I guess two datacenters in different physical locations are a necessity as a backup plan.

</comment><comment><USER5> EVERY datacenter eventually suffers outages. Either through acts of stupidity or nature.

Having all of your eggs in one basket, even if that basket is labelled "Google" or "Amazon", WILL lead to issues like this.

Also, "leasing" servers will also lead to headaches eventually.

Leased servers, EC2, etc. are all fine while you're in a growth phase, but at some point if you want to run a big web enterprise, you have to DIY.

</comment><comment><USER6> I feel bad for these admins. It's not really their fault, but I'm sure a lot of end users are going to give them a lot of crap.

</comment><comment><USER2> Over 24 hours now.

<comment><USER7> I've got servers up there now.

<comment><USER7> though apparently not with reliable dns yet.

<comment><USER7> To save others some time they put up info on alternate resolvers: NTT x.ns.verio.net 220.127.116.11

NTT y.ns.verio.net 220.127.116.11

H2 188.8.131.52

H2 18.104.22.168

[http://forums.theplanet.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=90185...](http://forums.theplanet.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=90185&view=findpost&p=593360)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Chef has shifted away from the open source community model - <AUTHOR> https://coderanger.net/chef-open-source/

<comment><USER2> I think it's strange to say that a project with source code published under an open source license isn't open source because it isn't developed in a collaborative way with public input. We need different terminology to distinguish these things.

There are a number of closely-held and opaque projects that practice software development in a not-particularly-transparent way and don't solicit or welcome input from the general public. Their output can still be open source, though! It's just not what people have grown to expect.

Historically, a lot of the Free Software Foundation's projects were like this. They didn't offer public access to their version control systems, the development was primarily done by officially FSF-approved developers, and they made (sometimes relatively infrequent) periodic official source releases with lots of big changes. Some people called these intermittent releases "throwing code over the transom". They didn't always specifically invite the public to take an ongoing active role (though of course outside developers did contribute patches).

Another interesting example is NetHack (whose official Dev Team is famously secretive and slow to make official releases), and, until recently (except for the licensing problems) TrueCrypt. And, so I've heard, the Android Open Source Project.

The article says

The original idea behind "the commons" was that by everyone putting in a little bit we could build software better and more sustainably.

I find this a little historically suspect. It depends on whose notion of the commons and at what point in software history. Some notions of nonproprietary software with rather long historical pedigrees include: it's culturally weird to restrict who can use software or for what; it's too much bother to try to restrict the use or distribution of software; end users deserve control and freedom when they use software; making software available for unrestricted use helps it become part of infrastructure that its developers and other people value; getting open source software out there helps commoditize complementary goods.

And there are some rather concrete reasons that someone would want open source software instead of proprietary software even if it's not developed in a collaborative way _at all_.

* Transparency about what the software does

* The ability to do audits for backdoors, bugs, and malware

* The right to fork the code if one's interests or judgments diverge sharply from the upstream developers' over the long run

* Avoiding the risk of abandonware if the upstream developer goes out of business or decides to stop developing the software

<comment><USER3> Well you can do audits for backdoors and malware without having the source code. It is a common misconception in open source communities that you cannot do these without the source. If you check the pro security guys, they do not care about source code too much, it makes exploitation a bit easier but that is it. On the top of that, having the source code does not guarantee that you will find the security bugs either. See OpenBSD weakened crypto.

<comment><USER2> I think this is something of a continuum from actively hostile to external audit (proprietary EULAs and legal threats; binary code obfuscation) to actively welcoming of it (an open source project like Tor that will give advice to researchers who are studying or reviewing it, or other projects that try to encourage audits in other ways).

I agree that it's much more feasible to read binaries than we tend to think, and that they're intelligible artifacts that many people do make a habit of studying.

<comment><USER3> Yes there is a continuum and there are great Tor like projects in that sense. Where you end up on that continuum mostly depends on the reviewing process.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Chef is licensed under the Apache license. That makes it open source.

Chef, however, is not really a community project. There are many open source projects managed like this.

I don't think this is a pedantic difference: Chef respects the four freedoms, even if they don't incorporate these changes back to the root.

That said, I wouldn't be in a hurry to put through a pull request in most cases myself. I wouldn't feel too invested in this tool. But it's not proprietary.

<comment><USER5> > licensed under the Apache license. That makes it open source

> [...] not really a community project. There are many open source projects > managed like this

Some open source projects start off as community projects but morph into cathedralic ones, hijacked by a few to exclude the many. Even though it still uses an open source license such as Apache, people familiar with it's formerly more open community-oriented processes stop calling it _open source_.

<comment><USER6> That point of view is in conflict with the Open Source Initiative's definition of "Open Source"[0]

[0] [http://opensource.org/osd-annotated](http://opensource.org/osd-annotated)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > _Yes, in the literal sense the code is open for viewing and modification, > but the open source ethos is more than just that. It is about communities > building software together._

Tons of open source software is mostly controlled by one company.

If it's available by the open source rules it's good enough for me.

If there was a big enough pool of people interested in having a community about it, they'd fork the project anyway -- as it happened with MySQL etc.

<comment><USER5> Some open source cathedrals do the opposite - they encourage outsiders to build addons to the project, then they fork the addon and bundle it as part of the primary software distro, leaving the outsider outside.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Not Open Source" is the wrong term. It's an extreme example of a cathedral project. See: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar) .

Slightly off-topic, but Android is another good example of a project where the LICENSE is open, but the ethos behind the project are not. The source code releases are licensed under the Apache License, but they're aimed at device manufacturers. Not at users. Not at developers. Not at ROM makers. Google doesn't care about your stinkin' custom ROM.

How many people outside of Google do you know who have contributed a (non- security) patch upstream to Android? Can you clone the Android source from a public VCS to see what is being worked on in the next, yet unannounced release? Where was the Honeycomb source code before Ice Cream Sandwich got released?

If someone decided to fork Android, what kind of changes could they make and still remain compatible with apps designed for Google's version of Android? APIs and compatibility definition documents serve as Google's insurance against forking.

Someone ought to invent a pejorative term for this kind of projects. It may be an open source project. But does it represent the same collaborative ethos as the Linux Kernel, Mozilla or GNU? No.

This isn't about free software vs open source. This is about open source serving a purely commercial interest (having the Google ecosystem on as many third-party devices as possible) vs innovation and collaboration.

Any respectable person calling themselves a hacker would not call these "shut- in" projects truly open.

</comment><comment><USER9> Chef is not a true Scotsman?

Edit: drive by downvotes! Okay seriously, open source is easily defined[1]. This essay is saying ok they're open source, but they're not _TRUE_ open source. Classic fallacy[2]. What the author really wants to say is that Chef isn't open source _enough_ , but then it makes a much more exciting polemic to question their identity as a group.

[1] [https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aopen+source](https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aopen+source) [2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman)

</comment><comment><USER10> The term "Open Source (tm)" was invented to co-opt the free software movement... so that corporations could do exactly what corporations are doing.

Your rant is 16 years late, and whatever delusions you may have of some shared "open source model" are just that--delusions.

</comment><comment><USER11> The community model -- ESR's "Bazaar" \-- is made more viable by open source licensing (it does not seem to be strictly _impossible_ with closed licensing models, but its unlikely to be attractive to participants), but really is conceptually a very different thing than open source. In fact, that model evolved as a _consequence_ of open source licensing rather than being its motivation -- the motivation was, well, the Four Freedoms, as "open source" started as Free Software, motivated by ideology, the _pragmatic_ evolution -- and the name "open source" \-- focussed on a number of perceived benefits, of which the community/bazaar model was clearly one but not the only one.

So, really, the reference to open source -- either the strong one in the original article title ("Chef is not open source") or the weaker one in the current HN title ("Chef has shifted away from the open source community model") -- are unnecessary inflammatory and distract from the real point, which is more like "Chef has shifted toward the 'cathedral', while Noah prefers the 'bazaar'."

</comment><comment><USER12> There's a good reason why you see so few institutional contributors to Chef: Chef Inc. insists that your employer sign a Contributor Licensing Agreement (CLA) before your PR will be merged. That's a big obstacle for many companies. There aren't a lot of legal departments that have the bandwidth to process these agreement forms just so that one of their employees can contribute to some other company's code base.

Back when I worked at Rackspace, I had to jump through many, many hoops [1] just to get my one patch [2] to knife-rackspace merged. And I had it easy: Rackspace already had a running CLA with Opscode because Rackspace _needed_ those patches to flow. Most employers could care less.

[1] [https://github.com/opscode/knife- rackspace/pull/42](https://github.com/opscode/knife-rackspace/pull/42)

[2] [https://github.com/opscode/knife- rackspace/commit/d394397760...](https://github.com/opscode/knife- rackspace/commit/d3943977600c6a31825164684df1584dfa5c2e7e)

<comment><USER13> Yes, it's really annoying. Especially if you have things that are literally 1 character issues. The amount of bureaucracy involved is enough that I'm not going to bother. Instead bugs like [https://tickets.opscode.com/browse/CHEF-3755](https://tickets.opscode.com/browse/CHEF-3755) get raised and... ignored. Even if fixing it probably takes less time than commenting that it's going to triage. Sigh...

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Oh brother. Chef is Free and Open Source Software as defined by the Free Software Foundation. It's licensed under the Apache License. It doesn't get any more clear than that.

</comment><comment><USER15> The same could be said of Oracle's MySQL. However since MySQL is an open source project, you could always do what the original author did - fork it.

And since the license doesn't restrict you in any way on how you can distribute that fork, Chef is still open source.

I think this is important distinction and the title of this article just serves to flame the Chef development team. "Open Source", much like "Free as in Freedom", shouldn't be thrown around because you don't like how something is run. A lot of people spent a lot of time to create the open source movement to allow anyone to use code they wanted too. Once you start trying to create rules such as "Open source also means you _have_ to accept _my_ commits", you scare people away from OSS.

<comment><USER16> _" And since the license doesn't restrict you in any way on how you can distribute that fork, Chef is still open source."_

You may be aware, but a few things here make me unsure - permissively licensed software is Open Source, but copyleft software is _also_ Open Source. (And, for the record, permissively licensed software is _also_ Free Software).

<comment><USER15> You are right, what I should have said "doesn't restrict you in any way on how you can run your fork"

<comment><USER16> Well, it's "you can run your fork for any purpose, modify your fork freely, and distribute your fork and those modifications under the same license." If you can also distribute them under a more restrictive license, the license is permissive. If you can't, the license is copyleft.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> > Additionally having the code on GitHub gives a nice warm and fuzzy feeling > that there is no vendor-lock-in, even though there is no other game in town.

What about puppet and/or ansible? Is there something chef does they don't? I haven't been keeping up with their relative capabilities, but last I checked they were somewhat comparable. I don't know how open source puppet and ansible are, either.

<comment><USER18> While I disagree with the premise of the blog post above and companies should be able to decide how to run themselves, I will say Ansible was one of the top 5 projects for most OSS contributors on GitHub last year (up there with Rails, Angular.js, and Homebrew). We have over 775 total contributors now.

I think the greatest benefit of contributors is how to learn from them, creating a fantastic commons of learning, and they also keep things really well polished. Ansible was built to build this commons out, and we have some 235+ modules in core because of this now, collectively maintained.

But there are also some things that community engineering has a hard time building, and that's ok. This model doesn't work for all things, and employing a lot of really sharp people and giving away code is totally great too. Distributed systems can be one of those things. Crypto can be one of those things. These are things that don't need as large of teams as "make this systems component work on every version of Linux/Unix/Windows/other".

I don't think there should be a sense of entitlement towards everything being 100% democratic - it's not appropriate everywhere - but when you can make it work, it can be a good thing. In cases where the code is still open, but it's a little harder to contribute to, it's still open and you can learn from those sources and patch them when you need to. Editorial inputs are still important. Having a larger vision is critically important.

When those forces and needs can be balanced, great! OSS is about itch scratching, so sometimes if you want to build something when others have different itches (or customers do), you do have to just go out and direct some folks to build it. And that direction may be different than a whole armada of people may want to go, but can still get you to very interesting destinations.

For us, I think it's about alternating between those two modes - enabling the stream of "everything" to come in from GitHub (but filtering it, reviewing it, and making it better), but also remembering where we might like to go, and pointing that way, and building some of those bridges to make colonization of new areas possible.

<comment><USER17> Thanks... that's helpful to know where Ansible is coming from in all this. You seem to be following the management pattern of the organizations behind the majority of the tools and frameworks I use.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Curious about the default response, which is that the company hires all of the people that work on the project. I'd be curious to see stats of the commits of employeers versus their time of employment. I understand that this is probably not available to a third party, but would be interesting data.

</comment><comment><USER20> When did 'dysfunctional' and 'Open Source' become mutually exclusive?

Not to say that all or even most OS projects are dysfunctional, I just don't think being OS precludes a project from also being dysfunctional.

<comment><USER16> This isn't even really "dysfunctional" (I mean it may be, but that's not what the OP seems to be complaining about, per se). The complaint seems to be that the project isn't _community driven_. The great thing about it _being_ FLOSS is that, at any time, it could _become_ community driven if ChefInc drops the ball (too much) and people still find value in the software.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> While I'm still chewing on the general premise... I have to say I really like the way the author quantified the involvement of the various parties involved in chef. That took some work and is useful, so I'm impressed.

</comment><comment><USER21> I would say that it is open source, but it has a problem with its community.

That said, I feel you. I think this is a common phenomenon with successful companies that make OSS.</comment>