Emacs for the rest of us: ErgoEmacs - <AUTHOR> http://code.google.com/p/ergoemacs/wiki/DeveloperIntro <comment><USER2> It should be pointed out that Emacs maintainers aren't in some kind of stubborn elitist get-off-my-lawn mindset.

Making Emacs more welcoming to newbies has been discussed time and again on the Emacs mailing lists. But the general consensus (one that I happen to agree with) seems to be that "learning Emacs the hard way" is, generally, the right way.

As just one example, I think that emulating the inferior Undo/Redo paradigm (using the Ctrl+Y/Z binding familiar to Windows and MacOS users) hides the full power of the Kill Ring and may mean that some Emacs users will never get to know about it.

I know it's a topic of heated debate and I don't mean to start this debate all over here on HN. I just thought it would be good to point out that newbie- friendliness is continually being considered and reconsidered by Emacs' maintainers, but (for the most part) usually rejected, and I think for good reasons.

See this thread for one example, there are many more if you care to look for them:

[http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu- emacs/2005-03/msg...](http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu- emacs/2005-03/msg00587.html)

<comment><USER3> I think there are a huge percentage more people who dont know the first thing about the emacs kill ring because they tried out emacs and it didnt support the same keyboard shortcuts as every single other application on their computer.

I am an emacs user, I love it, but I avoided it for over a year because it made absolutely no attempt to play nicely with new users, emacs doesnt need to be so hard to new users, it does it on purpose

<comment><USER4> I agree, except it doesn't do it on purpose. It's too old to change.

Emacs' ugly, clunky, non-standard 1970s way of doing everything is so closely bound to all the good things about Emacs that you can't have one without the other. People always try (for good reason), but then Emacs doesn't work as well, and the efforts evaporate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Meh.

Modern does not equate to better. Most of the complaints listed boil down to "Because it's not Windows". Intuitive is just what you've seen before...

I suppose it's ridiculous to expect and hope people to care about their tools enough to customize it for what they use and want. :-/

I spend probably 30 minutes each month on average dinking with my .emacs to tune it with how I'm using emacs, remove hassles, etc. These days it's extremely intuitive and useful for my work. I maintain similar keybindings between multiple operating systems, customized for my preferred keyboard and hands; a variety of functions have been put together to ensure that what I do gets done very efficiently.

Because emacs _was_ extensible trivially, _was_ programmable, I can spend the time and the learning curve to invest in my primary tool. That's what, in my opinion, emacs is about.

<comment><USER4> _Intuitive is just what you've seen before._

That is a marvelous aphorism.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3389615>

<comment><USER5> I didn't come up with it, but I like to use it in an 'intuitive' debate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Some projects related insofar as they are attempts to simplify the initial configuration of Emacs. I've used all but the last at some point and have found them useful (though like any good scaffolding, they become irrelevant over the course of continued Emacs usage):

* <https://github.com/gabrielelanaro/emacs-for-python>

* <https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit>

* <http://eschulte.github.com/emacs-starter-kit>

* <https://github.com/pdee/pdee>

I am especially interested to see this get off the ground, though, as even the simplified "starter kits" above still require a certain non-trivial level of contextual Emacs-knowledge -- a simple binary with overly-sane keybindings and functional out-of-the-box would be a real contribution. I would have loved to use something like that myself about a year ago.

</comment><comment><USER7> This timeline seems to be unaware of package.el, ELPA, etc, by proposing bundling MORE packages by default in Emacs (IMO Emacs' default installation is already huge).

Also, I don't see the keybinding changes gaining any traction, because they would conflict with too many existing packages. As one of many examples, C-c (proposed for Copy) is already used for lisp compilation.

</comment><comment><USER8> In that same vain, I would love an emacs in a browser based on the Javascript language. So, a base API to create new buffers/windows. Ideally a theme manager and a plugin/extension system.

The goal would be to have this app open 24h/24 on a server and be able to totally use it from the browser and customize it with Javascript.

I would also be able to have a irc client (Think erc) directly in this 'editor' coded entirely in Javascript using this API. Basically, anything you could do with emacs would be possible, but directly from the browser hosted somewhere and running 24h/24.

<comment><USER9> That's interesting, but one of the challenges is the wide variety of modifier keys emacs uses, and the difficulty of binding them all in the browser.

The other major challenge is just duplicating javascript the sheer quantity of functionality emacs provides. An easier first step may be to run emacs on the server and write a javascript-based client for it.

<comment><USER10> Or, you know, run emacs on the server and write a "ssh based client" for it. :)

What would be the value of running in a browser specifically? The files you are editting almost by definition live outside the browser's sandbox. And if they're going to be managed server-side, it seems like there's a perfectly working 40 year old paradigm for managing files on a remote host.

<comment><USER9> You're right, it's an interesting challenge but not necessarily one that is begging to be solved.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This hasn't been updated in nearly 2 years.

<comment><USER12> The linked 'DeveloperIntro' page hasn't been updated since 2010, but the code was updated as recently as last month. EDIT: <http://code.google.com/p/ergoemacs/source/list>

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Many of the comments focus on increasing the friendliness of emacs for new users, and how open-minded the maintainers are to this effort, though they realize in their wisdom that this is not necessarily a valuable goal in and of itself.

The newbie issue is a typical red herring and excuse for the maintainers not to face the fact that emacs has huge design problems for _all_ users, not just newbies. For example, the presence of dozens of redundant crappy packages associated to every function, included by default in the distribution (e.g. a dozen word-wrapping packages) means that one is likely to use a substandard tool and have problems. The fact that all add-ons are treated with equal weight means that the command you are looking for is hidden among thousands of commands, most of which are way outside the scope of what I need. The proliferation of buffers, leading to the proliferation of buffer packages used to search through lists of buffers? You have to be kidding me. The customization system in Emacs is not only a throwback to 1980s UI "design" but completely out of control -- all options, no matter how minute, are treated on equal footing even if most of them should be hidden or in subtrees. Not only this, but the customization options themselves are badly named, using quirky terminology which nobody uses except emacs.

In short, emacs is thoroughly polluted and needs an environmental assessment and large-scale cleaning project. This has nothing to do with newbies, it has to do with oldies whose dusty, dried-up packages need to be swept into the dustbin of history.

</comment><comment><USER14> As a Dvorak user, I find it very odd that he has a version of the keybinding (<http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html>) with all the letters swapped around so that shortcuts are in the same physical place that they would be on a QWERTY keyboard(!).

I can see relearning C for copy, as it's logical and would reduce the burden of switching between normal Mac/PC applications, but having J mean copy because that key would have been C in QWERTY is just too weird. I think about lots of Emacs bindings mnemonically: C-b, C-f and friends, obviously, or C-c because that's just the "bindings having to do with this mode" key, and you see it a lot when you read documentation -- in my head, it's a letter, not a physical position. I touch-type Dvorak pretty fast, but two-finger type it _very_ slowly, because in my brain the letters are wired to finger movements starting on the home row.

A possible reason for this is that he has an "inverted T" for cursor movement (but on the left hand, like vi, not WASD like I believe PC gamers would be used to). If your set of cursor keys is based on the physical layout of QWERTY, like vi, it doesn't translate all that well to Dvorak (vi manages to be not horrible since J and K stay next to each other, but in this proposal J and K are not on the same axis), but if they are mnemnonic, like Emacs, there's no problem.

If the idea is to fit better with what the vast majority of "normal" people expect computers to work... well, normal people use the arrow keys. Telling them an invented abstraction is better because they don't have to move their hands from home row isn't going to sell them, I think.

<comment> Gong-Yi you may put this line in your .emacs or .emacs.d/init.el:

(setenv "ERGOEMACS_KEYBOARD_LAYOUT" "dv")

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The real power of Emacs is the whole set of commands to match the mind interests (more commands you have, more power you get). For example, sexps are the best thing for programming: cut/copy/paste complete expressions is a must and you can feel how your mind want to handle those kind of expressions. And Emacs gives you that power.

Anyway the default Emacs keyboard bindings are just ridiculous, also ErgoEmacs is not good enough. I've my own keyboard bindings: <http://goo.gl/jwwdG> and I'm sure they can be much better. But it's just matter of taste.

The worst enemy of Emacs is its own UI and its own programming language for customization: elisp without multithreading support.

</comment><comment><USER16> Note that ergoemacs is not the same thing as CUA mode. Ergoemacs is more about ergonomic efficiency than about mimicking windows. CUA mode is a separate mode already built into emacs.

I used ergoemacs keybindings for a year or so. They are pretty slick, and definitely more ergonomically efficient than emacs default keybindings. However, many modes are designed around emacs default keybindings, and I eventually decided it was too much work tweaking every mode I used to conform to the ergoemacs setup.

If you stick to emacs core modes which are already customized, it's probably a good choice.

</comment><comment><USER17> Interesting project. Emacs is such a powerful tool. It makes sense to attempt to modernize it. It will be hard to get momentum because Emacs users are typically die-hard purists, so moving away from the "Emacs way" may ruffle some feathers.

Recently I've started to do this on a small scale in my own .emacs file. Shortcuts I use every few minutes were hidden but too many multi-step keyboard shortcuts. Especially when I really don't need to duplicate the arrow and page-up/down keys with single-step shortcuts.

It's too bad it sounds like there won't be a Linux version.

<comment><USER18> I think the biggest change for regular users is a good package manager. ELPA is coming per default in emacs24, and there is a project in github (el-get) that is even better. I have a pretty big emacs config, and configuring some external modules (and updating them!) used to be a nightmare. Now it has gotten much easier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> "enhanced from GNU Emacs"... Implying that you could easily enhance Emacs is a certain way for pushing passionate users away from this.

You don't "enhance" Emacs, you hack it, extend it, write cool modes...

<comment><USER20> Eh, a beginner needs Emacs to be more extended like I need twelve more legs. Emacs is harder to learn than most of the programming languages you'll be using in it. The first thing I tried to do beyond basic open-edit-save when I started learning Emacs was change the colors to something that hurt my eyes less. After extensive Googling and playing around with the things I found, I failed. That's simple in every other text editing program I'd used up to that point, but when given the choice to improve the program's usability or "extend it" and "write cool modes," you're right, Emacs users seem to invariably prefer the latter. I can't blame people for scratching their own itch, but I don't think we should hate on people for trying to help new users either.

</comment></comment><comment> Gong-Yi ErgoEmacs is really helpful to me, the only problem is that most modes shipped with Emacs (like org-mode) are still using the old c-x c-something c-blah blah keybinding, that sometimes annoys me after I have adapted ErgoEmacs keybindings. It seems no good solutions for this issue available yet.

</comment><comment><USER4> I don't love Emacs' UI either, but imposing a new UI on it won't work, unless you rethink its entire model, in which case you'll no longer have Emacs.

A better way to help new users with Emacs' daunting learning curve might be to make a game. A fun game would get that stuff into muscle-memory pretty quickly.

</comment><comment><USER21> But this is from Xah Lee. He's smarter than everyone on the planet and knows what's best, by fiat. If you don't believe me, just ask him.

<comment><USER22> I do not question that he would agree with you. He's not smarter than me, though. :) Or Jeff Pace: [http://jpace.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/ergonomic- emacs-keybin...](http://jpace.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/ergonomic-emacs- keybindings/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> People want instant gratification... Seriously. Use TextMate if you want a quick to learn, but limited, editor.

</comment><comment><USER23> How about Emacs for Android?

Apropos of nothing, "WINE" stands for "WINE is not Emacs".

</comment><comment><USER24> "whose" not "who's"</comment>


Darpa challenge offers public $100,000 for small unmanned aircraft - <AUTHOR> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/darpa-challenge-offers-public-100000-small-un

<comment><USER2> It would be fun to develop but they are offering less than a years pay. Why would I (or any engineer) spend a year of development (say) on the off chance I _might_ get paid? Did I miss something in the article?

<comment><USER3> They want hardware, too, so you have to pay more than an opportunity cost up front. They mention that the winner will get to work with a manufacturer to produce more prototypes, but it's hard to put a monetary value on that without more details.

Seriously, anyone with the expertise and desire to do this sort of thing on their own is already doing it and getting paid more than $100k to do so.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> It doesn't even look like you get any sort of royalties - you just have the "opportunity" to help some defense contractor develop it further so _they_ can make the money from your idea/work.</comment>


CNET Founder Minor Files for Bankruptcy After Selling Art - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-30/cnet-founder-minor-files-for-bankruptcy-after-selling-art.html

<comment><AUTHOR> From the courageous beginnings, in vogue with what is usually advocated by the startup culture:

"Minor had at least one brush with bankruptcy early on. It was the early 1990s, and he was trying to get CNET off the ground, Businessweek reported then. He had maxed out his credit cards, expenses were piling up "and he was $40,000 in the hole," according to the magazine."

To:

"How do you sell the technology company you founded for $1.8 billion and five years later file for personal bankruptcy?"

How he portrays it:

"A case might have been made that I should never have strayed from technology," Minor said in the e-mail, according to the Daily Progress. "However, I like doing things outside my comfort zone, and I believe that willingness in part accounts for my tech successes."

How others may have seen it:

"Minor had a falling out with fellow backers of 12 Entrepreneuring Inc., a business incubator he started in 2000 with Internet veteran Eric Greenberg, amid allegations of lavish spending as startup investing began falling out of favor. (...) Conway led a revolt to recoup the investor group's money, raising questions over $45 million in office-lease commitments and $13 million on furnishings and technology equipment"</comment>


Real-time event aggregation at scale using Postgres with Citus - <AUTHOR> https://www.citusdata.com/blog/2016/11/29/event-aggregation-at-scale-with-postgresql/ <comment><USER2> The whole idea about the post is quite interesting. Definitely shows the high performance capabilities of the system. I really appreciate the addition of the parallel insert via INSERT ... SELECT which is quite handy.

I have a question about the topic of the post. The method presented could also be simulated with a MATERIALIZED VIEW? Are they supported in Citus? In any case, the technique presented is pretty cool :)

<comment><USER3> (Ozgun from Citus Data)

We're planning on supporting VIEWS (but not MATERIALIZED VIEWs) in Citus 6.1: [https://github.com/citusdata/citus/issues/442](https://github.com/citusdata/citus/issues/442)

If you're interested in using Materialized Views in Citus, please feel free to comment on the issue or open a new one. We'd be happy to incorporate your feedback into upcoming releases.

You're also correct in that the method presented in this blog post could be simulated with a distributed materialized view. One potential difference could be that materialized views in PostgreSQL currently refresh the entire data from source tables. This method provides flexibility to do rolling inserts or upserts.

<comment><USER2> +1 for VIEW support :)

I agree that the suggested method is more flexible (which means more performance in this kind of environments/problems). Mat views provide simplicity. I'd say not a must, but they may be useful for users who don't want to dig deep into these techniques.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Pre-aggregating data like this is a last resort in data warehousing. It's fragile: in this example, it depends on your data coming in exactly-once, in- order. It's also the opposite of future proof: soon, you will have a query that your pre-aggregation can't support, and you'll have to build more pre- aggregations.

Pre-aggregation is still a tool in the toolbox, but you should first consider switching to a purpose-built column-store like Redshift/BigQuery/Snowflake.

<comment><USER5> > you should first consider switching to a purpose-built column-store like > Redshift/BigQuery/Snowflake.

True, unless you have regulatory requirements that you can't store your data off-site.

<comment><USER6> Something like self hosted HDFS + Parquet + Presto/Hive would work though, wouldn't it?

<comment><USER4> Well there's lots of good on-prem columnar data warehouses. They're expensive, but you have to think in terms of total cost of ownership: a good warehouse will require less time from your team building workarounds.

<comment><USER7> I'm not sure what your threshold of expensive is, but this is available in MS SQL Server. You don't necessarily need to purchase an application solution or a specific DW RDBMS.

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sql-server/sql-server- editio...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sql-server/sql-server-editions)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> ... _tears of joy_ ...</comment>


War and drugs: Together since forever - <AUTHOR> https://www.knowablemagazine.org/article/society/2019/war-and-drugs-together-forever <comment><USER2> Good article, but the response to the last question on the use of cannabis in warfare is pretty thoroughly wrong: [https://sensiseeds.com/en/blog/cannabis- may-used-weapon-war/](https://sensiseeds.com/en/blog/cannabis-may-used-weapon- war/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Drug use by Marines, Taliban and Afghan police/army during the Helmand province campaign needs its own study and book.

<comment><USER4> Why that province specifically?

<comment><USER3> Just an anecdote of mine. I'm sure there was plenty of drug use in other provinces but my personal experience was in the Helmand. I try not to talk about other places and units I don't have experience in.

<comment><USER5> Was their a lot of drug use going on? Which drugs?

<comment><USER3> Oh yea. Mostly weed and some opium. In my company over 50% of us smoked weed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A line from Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, linked to by the article -

 _' The next day, sensible they had misbehav'd in giving us that disturbance, they sent three of their old counselors to make their apology. The orator acknowledg'd the fault, but laid it upon the rum; and then endeavoured to excuse the rum by saying, "The Great Spirit, who made all things, made everything for some use, and whatever use he design'd anything for, that use it should always be put to. Now, when he made rum, he said, 'Let this be for the Indians to get drunk with,' and it must be so."

And, indeed, if it be the design of Providence to extirpate these savages in order to make room for cultivators of the earth, it seems not improbable that rum may be the appointed means. It has already annihilated all the tribes who formerly inhabited the sea-coast.'_

The passage of time has amusingly cursed him here however. From his own hand, the Indians now come off as witty and polite and he ends up looking like the savage.

<comment><USER7> Considering Benjamin Franklin in other writings has shown a much more enlightened view of Indians, this passage you quoted might have been written with sarcasm and this is an earlier example of Poe's law. This passage has more to do with the virtue of temperance and rum than indians. This passage is more like objectively talking about how the CIA worked to help import cocaine in the United States in the 80s and how African American communities like Harlem were being destroyed because of the crack epidemic because of these policies of the government.

This passage edited for 2019 internet should read.

'The next day, sensible they had misbehav'd in giving us that disturbance, they sent three of their old counselors to make their apology. The orator acknowledg'd the fault, but laid it upon the rum; and then endeavoured to excuse the rum by saying, "The Great Spirit, who made all things, made everything for some use, and whatever use he design'd anything for, that use it should always be put to. Now, when he made rum, he said, 'Let this be for the Indians to get drunk with,' and it must be so."

And, indeed, if it be the design of Providence to extirpate these savages in order to make room for cultivators of the earth, it seems not improbable that rum may be the appointed means. It has already annihilated all the tribes who formerly inhabited the sea-coast.' /s

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting article.

> "War on drugs": It's a term that may elicit memories of the US government's > 20th-century campaign against the sale and use of illegal psychoactive > substances

Every country in the western world and Asia set up a war on drugs too. Like most things it's not unique to America.

The whole banning drugs thing extended into plenty of different cultures. But became a much bigger issue after we developed our modern economic system which combined mass production with global distribution channels and provided a whole lot of people with disposable income to spend.

> Or opium, for which the British government went to war — twice — with China.

Opium wasn't _really_ the reason they went to war, it was mostly just economic bullying by Britian's part which extended into a bunch of other reasons. It could easily have been over any product like tea (which is what Britian was exchanging the opium for).

<comment><USER9> > Every country in the western world and Asia set up a war on drugs too.

Most modern drug policies that are adopted outside the US were adopted due to pressure from the US or the UN (which is basically the US)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Noteworthy examples that seem to be missing from this are the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms/herbs by the Viking berserkers and the more modern use of Captagon by members of ISIS.</comment>


Is Groupon The Next Google? - <AUTHOR> http://www.evanmiller.org/is-groupon-the-next-google.html <comment><AUTHOR> Great article from Evan Miller. Golden Football [<http://www.evanmiller.org/golden-football.html>] is another good read about Groupon.

"Groupon is onto something big, and I think in a few years we can expect them to break into some large and unexpected markets." Namely: Small-business financing, Popular music concerts, Popular music recordings, and Online dating.

<comment><USER2> Can you explain more about these unexpected markets?

<comment><AUTHOR> Just click through to the article I linked. Even goes into much more detail and I intentionally did not repost that information here.</comment></comment></comment>


Android Guide (Version 4.2) - <AUTHOR> http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/android_guide_version_420

<comment><USER2> I would get a Nexus 4 but it has no 4g...</comment>


How Citable Public Documents Will Change Your Life - <AUTHOR> http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/04/stop-fishing-and-start-feastin.html

<comment><USER2> I've often wanted a way to reference web documents at the paragraph level in general, since most web documents don't include many anchors (<a name="here"/>), that you can use in the URL with a "#" ("#here").

One solution I tried was to write a greasemonkey script that would add anchors to all headings, using their text as the name.

Another solution is to google for a unique string in the paragraph you want, then use google's cached version of the page. This highlights the text, but doesn't actually add an anchor. eg: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:L9bpHCe...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:L9bpHCeNlSYJ:www.paulgraham.com/softwarepatents.html+%22The+only+real+role+of+patents,+for+most+startups,+is+as+an%22)

A webservice to add anchors for every paragraph is pretty simple (probably several already exist) - but I think it would be a great addition to the html standard itself so that, in effect, each paragraph gets an URL.

</comment><comment><USER3> To paraphrase the guy from the thread on Visa predicting divorce [1]: Slightly off-topic: if you post something with a misleading title that you can improve, please do so. This article has no real information on how citable public documents will change your life, just the assertion that they will and that you should help.

[1]: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1249539>

<comment><USER4> Perfect summary! The linked article was almost information free.

There is more information on their wiki. The elevator-pitch version is here: <http://citability.pbworks.com/Onepager>

IMO, it goes off the deep end after the WHY section. The scientific community has been dealing with the issue of citability for a couple of decades now (that I have witnessed) but, it seems like the folks at citability.org are intent on reinventing the wheel on this one.

<comment><USER5> FWIW, the legal community has been dealing with citability for a few centuries.

In criminal cases, people's lives are on the line. In class-action civil lawsuits, billions of dollars are at stake.

This wheel most-definitely does not need re-inventing.

Flagging this article for it's total lack of content.

<comment><USER6> That's a false analogy. The legal community deals with well-documented, stable, and easily cited statutes. There are strong incentives driving clear presentation of current law. The objectives outlined in the OP would not be served by those incentives, because they are concerned with _all_ government documents, whether they have made their way into law yet or not. Such documents can be unstable and hard to find, so providing clearinghouse through which they can be cited in a time-aware fashion would be incredibly useful for tracking the evolution of proposed laws.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Good arguments in general (though yes, careful not to reinvent any wheels here...) but to me the most important thing I got out of the article was the link to

League of Technical Voters <http://www.leagueoftechvoters.org/>

which is a _great_ idea.

</comment><comment><USER8> if you want more meat - go the the wiki where the projects are and the links to the code

<http://dccodeathon.pbworks.com> or readup more at <http://citability.pbworks.com>

after the event I will post all the links to source code. There isn't much yet only discussions about architecture.

We don't require anyone to follow any standards - and we aren't reinventing the wheel. We are just dressing up the distributed versioning wheel for govt people so they can understand it. That is why I think we can get it done in a weekend. Re-inventing a wheel takes more than that...:-)</comment>


Announcing sshexport - <AUTHOR> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6990 <comment><USER2> > This doesn't actually pose much additional security risk because by > hypothesis anyone who can read this file has read access to your current > private ssh keys already.

Yes, but they _don 't_ have access to my password. That's kind of the point. Having a password-protected private key file is much less useful without the password. If you're going to store the password, might as well just remove it and save yourself the trouble.

<comment><USER3> I read it like you the first time but now I think he means the remote account password. As if I have password auth enabled in sshd.

<comment><USER4> But he talks about GPG directories. And then says he uses drive encryption... To protect his passwords? No, these sentences don't make sense.

<comment><USER5> To protect all the files on his computer(s), including the public/private key pairs that allow him access to remote machines.

<comment><USER4> I feel like I'm stating the obvious so perhaps I'm missing something, but FDE only protects anything when a computer is off or a volume is otherwise not mounted.

Eg. your average shoulder surfing/xscreensaver unlock bypassing jerk, hacker or piece of malware isn't going to bother checking if an already mounted filesystem happens to be on an encrypted block device and voluntarily decide not to copy all your private keyfiles.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6>
      I struck a small blow for better security today.

Good old ESR. Taking a bow for writing an expect script.

</comment><comment><USER7> Ansible can easily do this out of the box. It's agent-less, too, so you don't need to install anything on the remote host either. And if you're not using config management, it's about time and Ansible is a great place to start!

[https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/authorized_key_module.html](https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/authorized_key_module.html)

</comment><comment><USER8> How am I supposed to automatically rotate keys given that:

(1) Disabling password auth (which this appears to rely on) is literally the second thing I do on a new machine (the first being to add the relevant pubkey(s), so I don't get locked out), and

(2) My SSH private keys all have a passphrase set (they may or may not be stored in ssh-agent at any given time, but that's irrelevant if I'm trying to automate this). So, using the old keys to log in and rotate to the new keys is also out.

I don't see how I manage key rotation without manual intervention at some point, which means I'll either forget to do it sometime, or I'll manage to mess it up and lock myself out of machines.

<comment><USER9> Manage them using a configuration management tool (e.g puppet/chef/ansible).

Also, it's far better to have the pubkeys stored in a filesystem location (I.e not in the users home directory) that the ssh daemon has read access to, and no-one outside of root/config management has write access to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I wrote something similar, but in bash (and it uses the old key to rotate the new key).

I'm half-surprised no one else had written something like this before. It's a common enough problem.

[0] [https://github.com/stevenkaras/bashfiles/tree/master/.ssh](https://github.com/stevenkaras/bashfiles/tree/master/.ssh)

</comment><comment><USER11> Great tool. Key rotation is so often overlooked but really important.

For anyone who wants to _enforce_ ssh key rotation, consider using our product Foxpass (YC S15), which (effectively) automatically removes keys after a set amount of time (e.g. 90 days).

[https://www.foxpass.com/](https://www.foxpass.com/)

</comment><comment><USER12> Woah, Eric S. Raymond. Not heard that name in a while :-)

<comment><USER13> Same here. I hadn't heard anything about him in years until 2014 when he took on the task of converting the Emacs code base to git.

[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2014-01/msg00...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2014-01/msg00005.html)

It was especially amusing when the the repository was initially deployed unpacked.

[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2014-11/msg00...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2014-11/msg00659.html)

It took almost a year to complete but I am really glad he was able to make this happen.

In browsing his site it's safe to say he's certainly been keeping busy. Can't wait to check out his hist post titled "Why I joined the NRA".</comment></comment>


DoD 'Agile' Software Development Still Too Slow: GAO - <AUTHOR> https://breakingdefense.com/2020/06/dod-agile-software-development-still-too-slow-gao/ <comment><USER2> Sounds like they bought the Capital A version of Agile</comment>


"Google Play Music All Access" On-Demand $9.99 A Month Subscription Service - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/15/google-play-music-all-access/

<comment><USER2> Goodbye Spotify subscription. You were alright while you lasted. Your Android app always felt lacking and your desktop application struggled to keep up with the music. Constantly insisting to publish all of my activity to my Facebook may have had good intent, but it came off as an annoyance.

Maybe we'll see each other again sometime in the future.

</comment><comment><USER3> I wonder how big their music catalog is, thats what really matters to me.

</comment><comment><USER4> US only. Shocker.</comment>


VeriFone Takes The Gloves Off, Accuses Square Of Serious Security Hole - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/09/verifone-takes-the-gloves-off-accuses-square-of-serious-security-hole/ <comment><USER2> I've just discovered another serious security hole! When you hand your credit card to a waiter, they can see the credit card number _totally unencrypted_ with their eyes! Clearly the solution is to blind all waiters.

The truth is credit card "security" is a bad joke. The only real defense these days is the fact that every payment processor has extremely sensitive fraudulent transaction detection systems because of the consumer protection laws that put fraud liability on the card issuer instead of the consumer. The whole system is a relic from the days before the internet and the only way to fix it is to replace it with something better like NFC.

<comment><USER3> I don't know. Seriously, I don't-- so I'll ask.

I've read that people will attach skimmers to gas station pumps/etc to get card info, so I assume there's more to be skimmed than just credit card numbers. So if you have 1 waiter with a Square-skimmer (or any other kind) and another without, can the first one get any more fraud-ready data than the second?

<comment><USER4> > I assume there's more to be skimmed than just credit card numbers

As usual, Le Wik to the rescue: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stripe_card#Financial_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stripe_card#Financial_cards)

Looks like a skimmer will get you account number, name, expiration date, and some verification numbers.

> So if you have 1 waiter with a Square-skimmer (or any other kind) and > another without, can the first one get any more fraud-ready data than the > second?

No, if you give your card to a malicious waiter he can skim all of its data. _Because you gave it to him_.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It seems their problem with Square is that it allows you to get the credit card number in plaintext if you use their hardware. Of course, this is nothing new: you can buy a cardreader that acts as a USB keyboard for $20 and use that to read a credit card and output it in TextMate. Square's hardware really has nothing to do with it: if Squary would use something else, you'd still be able to buy one of those reader thingies for $5 from DealExtreme or some other site, and use the same procedure to skim a credit card.

One thing Square could do would be to, say, encrypt the credit card info with a public key, then pass that data on to the app. The app could upload the data to Square, where it could be decrypted and verified. Of course, this wouldn't fit in a $2 reader, and there really isn't a point to do this as long as there are other readers out there that allow you to read the data in plain text.

<comment><USER6> > It seems their problem with Square is that it allows you to get the credit > card number in plaintext if you use their hardware. Of course, this is > nothing new: you can buy a cardreader that acts as a USB keyboard for $20

The point is that Square is marketed as a (presumably secure) payment device. i.e. two strangers (merchant and customer) establish trust so that the customer feels comfortable making a payment with the merchant's device.

In the case of a standalone card reader, you can skim your own cards all day, but strangers aren't going to give you their card to skim without a fraudulent premise.

Square's device provides a non-fraudulent premise, which is why the security flaw is a problem.

<comment><USER5> I don't get it. What's the difference between using Square, swiping a customer's credit card and storing the data, or using a POS system, swiping a customer's CC and storing the data from that? A lot of those packages consist of a windows/mac machine and a simple reader, you could write a kernel module or similar to do just that. Is it that Square advertises as being secure?

<comment><USER6> > What's the difference between using Square, swiping a customer's credit card > and storing the data, or using a POS system, swiping a customer's CC and > storing the data from that?

Nothing, really. Most POS systems are resistant to data extraction. Square's is less so. My main point was that the USB card reader things are not POS devices. (Or are they?)

<comment><USER5> Yes, they are, that's how most of those systems work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I take it that VeriFone has never heard of a magnetic card reader that plugs into a keyboard port?

This is a very shaky "security hole", if you ask me. When you hand over your card to someone, there is always a risk for them skimming the number. However, they kind of have to know the number in order to get paid... so how is this a security risk that is exclusive to Square again?

</comment><comment><USER8> This 'open letter' has a ring of dishonesty to it.

> Clearly, Square is a threat to VeriFone, so it's intentions aren't so pure > when exposing this potential issue.

That much is obvious. The letter is geared towards 'protecting the consumer', but makes the skimming method extremely public (especially with sq-skim.com)

I'm sure this will result in an increase in credit card theft incidents.

I'm also curious as to whether or not the perceived security threat is a bit overblown—there are many opportunities for my credit card number to be stolen (either when I use it online, or for physical transactions.) There's _always_ a risk, and as such, I generally don't go passing my credit card (or scanning my credit card) to vendors I don't trust. I assume that since you'd need to be physically present to give the card to be skimmed, you'd draw on other internal factors of trust (and not have much of a higher potential for card theft than at any other establishment.)

<comment><USER9> No kidding.

>"In less than an hour, any reasonably skilled programmer can write an application that will "skim" – or steal – a consumer's financial and personal information right off the card utilizing an easily obtained Square card reader."

Oh, but wait, we already DID IT FOR YOU.

VeriFone, protecting consumers by posting hacked apps to skim credit card numbers.

<comment><USER10> Were you able to find actually find the app? It seems they (wisely) never posted it.

>Don't take our word for it. See for yourself at www.sq-skim.com where you can download the sample skimming application and view a video of this type of fraud in action.

Commenting on the YouTube video has also been disabled. I feel like there is some sort of parable about glass houses here...

<comment><USER11> <http://www.mediafire.com/?zxtbagfkz7e64ja> Here is the zip of the IPA and provision file.

<comment><USER12> Yrral,

Thank you!!

Is this for the iPhone or for the Android phone?

And do you know how it works?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.

(I am a square investor.)

</comment><comment><USER14> I guess they didn't notice that all smart phones have this ability as standard, and call it "Camera". One quick snap, and boom - I've stored your CC number. No need for fancy hardware!

</comment><comment><USER15> This attack really struck me the wrong way. I'll never, ever be a verifone customer.

Verifone really went about attacking it's competitor the wrong way.

In the video that demonstrates being able to read the card information with their own iOS app they mention a criminal glass blower buying a TV with your credit card after making a purchase with square.

A glass blower, really, ummmmm let me think when is the last time I made a purchase from a glass blower? Is that a common interaction? I would have thought they would have chosen a common transaction. Street vendor, food stand, but no a glass blower. Very strange.

If you follow startups you'll remember that Jim McKelvey developer of the square hardware in question is a . . . what does he do again . . . oh yeah a software engineer and glass blower.

This appears to be a personal attack on Jim as well as on Square.

I hope verifone enjoys a good laugh on putting a glass blower in their video. Hopefully verifone will be writing Mr. McKelvey a large check after the lawyers are through with this one.

Very poor business practice whether or not

I don't see the download for their skimming app have they taken the app down? Probably a good idea, I doubt the credit card companies will appreciate them providing a skimming app regardless of what reading hardware it's using.

It appears their video has been removed from youtube.com for violating terms of service.

<comment><USER16> > I don't see the download for their skimming app have they taken the app > down? Probably a good idea, I doubt the credit card companies will > appreciate them providing a skimming app regardless of what reading hardware > it's using.

I imagine that part of the problem was that they were distributing an iPhone app binary along with their in-house enterprise distribution provisioning certificate to the public, which I imagine Apple isn't happy about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> In case you've heard of a "corporate hit job" but never knew what one looked like; rest easy. It looks like this.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm kind of surprised Square didn't include some kind of hardware encryption, but then again, it would probably make the readers a lot more expensive to manufacture.

One of the amazing things about plastic cards is that they were never designed in the 1960s with security or the internet in mind. The card itself (with its Primary Account Number) is an inherently insecure medium. PCI DSS tries to make up for this by layering rule after rule on how you can treat PAN data, but as most professionals in the space know, a system is only as secure as its weakest link. There's really nothing PCI or any other standard can do. By focusing on cards, Square has opened itself up to all of the problems associated with them.

Starting from scratch is the best way, and pretty much the only way, to create a secure payment network in today's environment.

<comment><USER19> Hopefully with the next gen of NFC devices, this is what we'll get.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Related [2007] [http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/banking/ped/verifo...](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/banking/ped/verifone- response.pdf)

> We believe it is not in the best interest of the consumers, merchants and > overall payment industry to publish the details of product designs > describing potential attacks however remote those might be. Even if these > attacks are difficult to be accomplished it gives the bad guys a leg up on > research they would not have to do and encourages bad behavior.

in response to : PIN Entry Device (PED) vulnerabilities <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/banking/ped/>

</comment><comment><USER21> The comments on the story, and the first round here, make me worry that people are missing the point. Particularly this one:

> VeriFone's point (albeit a stupid one) is that the path from the card reader > itself to the iOS device is not secure, so it's a hardware "problem."

That point isn't stupid at all, and is actually a legitimate gripe. It is my understanding that the Square device is only meant to be used with the Square payment software. Is that wrong? If that's the case, it shouldn't be as easy as VeriFone claims it is to skim a number from the device. I don't follow card skimming, but I would think that the point VeriFone is trying to make here is that Square is making it _easier_ for low-tech criminals to implement a skimmer. While it is possible today, I've never heard it described as _easy_.

Another of the commenters mentioned that professional card skimmers have their own devices. That's fine; that isn't the problem here. Professionals will _always_ do things better than the entry-level criminals. However, from my reading, it sounds like there is the capability here to write a shrink-wrapped iOS app that talks to the free Square reader, and you have skimming for a total investment of an iPod touch (or _lack_ of investment -- you _are_ a criminal, after all). Which is the problem that VeriFone is bringing up, and I halfway agree with given the limited evidence presented to me. We're _way_ too lax with credit cards.

Does the Square app really need to know the card number at all, aside from transmitting it upstream? What is the vector here? It seems like the Square device should be a black box that yields only some kind of payment token, and the app only gets the cardholder name (from their screenshots).

Square's own security page[1] makes this ambiguous, too:

> Card numbers, magnetic stripe data, or security codes are not stored on > Square client devices.

I've never used Square, so I might be full of hot air. However, I think instantly painting this as _not an issue_ simply because it came from a competitor is doing a disservice to the potential (real) vulnerability here. Read the information, not the source...

[1]: <https://squareup.com/security>

<comment><USER22> Are you serious?

The victim in this scenario is handing their credit card to the attacker. That's game over. It doesn't matter whether the attacker has a Square, a VeriFone device, or a piece of paper for writing down the card number. If you hand your credit card to someone malicious, they can figure out how to do bad things with it.

I'm a big fan of Square, but it's important to remember that their solution doesn't remove the traditional risks of credit card usage. But then, there isn't yet a widely-deployed, field-tested alternative, at least in the US. The advent of NFC payments may put reasonable crypto in the POS flow, but I'm sure it's matter of time before side-channel attacks are discovered in the burgeoning NFC solutions.

Security is hard. But VeriFone isn't talking about security. They're using security as an anti-competitive stalking horse, and that's a disgusting way to do business.

<comment><USER21> > Are you serious?

Very, and I will dig my heels in on this. For the record, your point would have been just as clear without this assertion that my point is stupid.

> The victim in this scenario is HANDING THEIR CREDIT CARD TO THE ATTACKER. > That's game over. It doesn't matter whether the attacker has a Square, a > VeriFone device, or a piece of paper for writing down the card number. If > you hand your credit card to someone malicious, they can figure out how to > do bad things with it.

So everybody should just stop doing security, since people will figure out ways around it? Why bother? The Square device, as another commenter points out elsewhere in this thread, sets the expectation of a legitimate transaction. It's pushed, it's marketed, it's being set as the new brand of credit card processing.

As such, Square have a responsibility to make sure that their products do not make skimming easier. And guess what? VeriFone found a way to skim, easily, with their product.

This whole "but you can do it on the black market for $20!" argument is, pardon the Latin, fucking ridiculous. I seriously can't believe there are people in this thread, who identify themselves as IT specialists, siding with Square because credit card processing is a lost cause. Internet Explorer 6 is pretty much a lost cause for Web exploits. Does that mean the rest of the browsers should not protect against Web exploits? This argument makes _absolutely no sense_. Who cares what others are doing? Do your product right.

> I'm a big fan of Square, but it's important to remember that their solution > doesn't remove the traditional risks of credit card usage.

True. But there is NO REASON to make the vector EASIER. PERIOD. Simply because there are real risks with the vector means that we should take strides to make the vector _harder_.

<comment><USER23> Jed, there are exactly two directions you can go from here, and I advise you to pick one of them instead of standing in the crossroads hollering and waving your arms.

On one road, you make the argument that it is fundamentally unsafe to accept credit cards with commodity mobile computing devices, because there is no way to do chain-of-custody control with insecure magstripe cards. There is a reasonable case to be made here. I'll disagree with it, but you won't automatically lose.

On the other road, you can provide one of more specific steps Square could take to make their commodity mobile card reader device meaningfully more secure. Be careful on this road because it is dangerous; people, myself included, will be standing on the side of the road shooting at you. Remember, anything you come up with must meaningfully improve the security of a device that can only interact with insecure magstripes.

You can also walk your argument back, which is what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

<comment><USER21> > You can also walk your argument back, which is what I'd do if I were in your > shoes.

Good point. I'm just leaving my argument where it is, since I've poignantly lost. The way you summarized it made something clear to me, though, so thank you for your response.

I had a response typed up to the "we need to switch to $X" elsewhere in this thread, then discarded it and went back to work after writing a much smaller one. That's probably the best way forward from the whole mess, since it is indeed true that magstripe technology is outdated and insecure. It's amazing to me that with the prevalence of strong crypto we haven't come up with something better that has been mass-adopted. Until Joe's Gas-n-Snacks in Bimbleberry, Kansas accepts my new-fangled card, I won't consider the replacement mass-adopted.

 _There's an interesting aside: Square hurts adoption of new-fangled payment technologies because it caters only to magstripes._

However, I still disagree on mere principle with "it's already broken, so no need to do it right for ourselves". That's a dangerous path to take in itself.

<comment><USER24> I think your perspective on what's broken is an issue.

It's one thing to say "everybody else is crappy, we can be crappy too." I agree, that's bad. Doing better can be a great differentiator.

It's another thing to realize "the input we receive is broken, our output will be too". Garbage in, garbage out.

Square, having decided they are going to be in the business of reading magnetic stripes, cannot make those magnetic stripes any more secure than they already are (not). They could maybe do better/right by being in a different business, but they can't do the business they are in any better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> It comes down to what Square are trying to do, if they want to be "another credit card reader device" then this isn't a security hole.

On the other hand if they want to take the PayPal approach and build a secure payment brand which says "we're a securer way to pay because the end merchant never sees your credit card details", then it is a security hole, because it means you can't trust the Square brand to act as a layer between you and the merchant.

</comment><comment><USER26> So is their a security flaw in the combination of the Square reader (hardware) and Square app (software)? That would be a problem and VeriFone wouldn't be in the wrong pointing it out.

Or is VeriFone just saying that hardware Square manufactures can be used for skimming? If that's the case, the email is pretty ridiculous. Skimming technology is nothing new and like others have said, readily available.

</comment><comment><USER27> Can I download VeriFone's pseudo-Square app from the App Store? I don't see an iTunes link on their website.

</comment><comment><USER28> The comments are spot on on the TC article. Does TC really not think about these things before publishing? If you give me your credit card, I can steal your CC info regardless of whether or not I use a card reader, a camera or a pen/paper. This is just sad.

</comment><comment><USER29> There are two dangers here:

1\. This actually does lead to a breach of card numbers, in which case Square will face penalties from Visa/MC/Amex - those penalties can be huge because they are calculated based upon the number of cards that were compromised (check out Heartland's breach last year).

2\. Verifone is able to convince Visa/MC/Amex that Square is not PCI compliant and that they should fine Square out of existence (it's not a legal thing, it's at Visa/MC's discretion).

#1 is somewhat likely, on Android moreso than Iphone, there have been android viruses before.

#2 isn't that likely, unless there is actually a breach and it ends up costing Visa and Mastercard money, Square is strategic to Visa and Mastercard because it gives them access to an entirely new customer base (that Verifone hasn't had any luck with).

1\. Customers don't give a shit. We hand our cards over into insecure situations all the time without thinking twice.

2\. Businesses don't care either - they only care about PCI and security when either their acquirer (in this case Square, which won't do it) or Visa/MC start fining them or threaten to shut them down.</comment>


Show HN: TF-IDF based text analyzer - <AUTHOR> http://www.bookshrink.com

<comment><USER3> It's a bit of a paradox that the head of the page reads "BookShrink - <USER2> made simple" when, further down, the user is told that "this will not generate a summary of what you type in. [...] Summary is something different." I find it confusing.

Another thing is that the results area should be used for the results, not error messages. For instance, i entered a text with less than 10 sentences (which is illegal) and couldn't tell what was wrong. Perhaps highlight the error (ie use colour) and show it above the form.

This is rather interesting, it could be marketed in the autoblog arena with ease!

<comment><AUTHOR> Inconsistencies have been fixed! Thanks for pointing it out - you were 100% correct.

I'm still working on the error handling - you're right, there should be a better way to do it than what I have now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> So, for the idf component, what is the corpus of other documents you're comparing the input text against?

</comment><comment><USER5> Doesn't work with Cyrillic text. I got only dots as summary.

<comment><AUTHOR> This should work now. I can't verify how accurate it will be, as I don't read or speak a language with a Cyrillic alphabet, and there were quite a few modifications to the algorithm that had to do with English text only, but you'll at least get a result back at this point. Let me know if it's at all accurate!</comment></comment>


End-To-End Encrypted RPC/PubSub Over Tor - <AUTHOR> https://meejah.ca/blog/end-to-end-encrypted-rpc-over-tor <comment><USER2> This is a really thorough demonstration of a really interesting idea. I can't think of many practical uses that require Tor here, but still very interesting.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, I would be really interested to hear some ideas for applications of this. Maybe for IOT devices between different houses to securely communicate and collaborate? Or a way to expose a public interface to your toaster without exposing your location?

<comment><USER4> command / control for botnet of infected machines?

<comment><USER5> or legitimate implementation of web crawling.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Generate React components by replicating your own - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/diegohaz/generact <comment><USER2> I am genuinely surprised that people find this improves their productivity by any significant margin...

<comment><USER3> All generators have always baffled me in this way. But this might because I'm always looking at the next shiny thing.

These generators are probably best suited to people with specific repetitive workflow's, like writing React Components everyday.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Would be useful if you could set fixed component path and boilerplate component and then only run 'generact ComponentName' and with a sub folder path 'generact Subfolder/ComponentName'. The sell here is really how easy it is to tailor the boilerplate component to your project.

<comment><USER5> I actually built this a few weeks ago: [https://github.com/qrohlf/bones](https://github.com/qrohlf/bones)

You define boilerplate components in `~/yourproject/.bones` and it does what you just described. I've been using it in several projects at work, it's been a nice standardization/productivity bump for my team.

<comment><USER3> Bones is a great name for a project which uses 'skeleton' templates. Love it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is interesting, but I believe a better solution will be to use something like hygen[1] to maintain a set of generators for your project.

[1] [https://github.com/jondot/hygen](https://github.com/jondot/hygen)

</comment><comment><USER7> I used to copy and paste then I invested time and effort into writing some sublime snippets for components, tests, and such. It was probably the best time saving investment I have ever made in basically anything.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd done that too. But I found some problems with that approach:

\- you can't automatically create files (AFAIK);

\- it doesn't help your team mates, only works for you and with that specific editor;

\- if you start working on a different project with different standard, you'll need to update the snippets or create new ones.

Turned out that I was always copying and pasting, so I decided to create this tool.

<comment><USER7> True points, very cool tool though and thanks for sharing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> ok so this is a CLI for copy-pasting?

<comment><AUTHOR> Kinda, but not really. XD

It copies files, renames them and replaces their names in the contents.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This looks great. Can't wait to try it out.

</comment><comment><USER10> Bravo for pushing helping people reinvent the wheel less but this just emphasizes how badly React needs uniformity in the community.

</comment><comment> Aleena-James How can a link be placed?</comment>


How To Use the "Seven Deadly Sins" to Turn Visitors into Customers - <AUTHOR> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/11/18/how-to-use-the-seven-deadly-sins-to-turn-visitors-into-customers

<comment><USER2> Dup, with some discussion already:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1918221></comment>


Ask HN: Legalities of developing "worthless" ideas on company time? - <AUTHOR>

Does the law agree that ideas are worthless? Suppose while working for a company I have an idea for a great product. I quit and build the product - what does the company own, if anything?
What if I made drawings of the idea, or created a business plan before quitting?
I mean not actually on "company time" (while on premise between 9 to 5", but say, in the evening. But some companies have these contracts that they own everything you come up with while you work for them. <comment><USER2> I believe it depends on the terms of your employment and your jurisdiction. For instance, California specifically forbids employers from claiming ownership of inventions which are unrelated to the employer's line of business created by employees outside of company time and without using company resources: [http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi- bin/displaycode?section=lab...](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi- bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=02001-03000&file=2870-2872)

</comment><comment><USER3> If they own anything you came up with while working for them, then they would own the drawings\business plan etc. Any future documentation derived from that original documentation would be a derivative work and there by be infringing. On the patent side of the fence you would have to have an idea capable of being patented, the wording of the employment contract would have to cover that angle as well. Having those two in place means they very well could come after you for the idea.</comment>


5 years: Broken Window - <AUTHOR> http://akshat.posterous.com/5-years-broken-window

<comment><USER2> Oh, yes! Applying the Broken Windows theory of criminology and social order to code (not to be confused with Bastiat's economic broken window fallacy).

A bit like the AntiPatterns thesis that good systems will have good patterns and bad have bad, and little mixing.

</comment><comment><USER3> i suppose the author recently read The Pragmatic Programmer?

as with the same argument presented in that book, i have a little trouble with this since i've been under the impression the broken windows hypothesis was discredited...</comment>


The Polls Missed Trump. We Asked Pollsters Why - <AUTHOR> https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-missed-trump-we-asked-pollsters-why/ <comment><USER2> the polls didn't miss anything they said Hillary would win and she did. Why would a national poll take into account our electoral college? It predicted the popular vote.

<comment><USER3> Generally I think people refer to the polls to see who is likely to win the election, not win the popular vote -- great many are unlikely to think there's even a difference, remembering there's an Electoral College only once every 4 years in the week or so leading up to election day, if then. If that's the case, they absolutely should take into account the Electoral College.</comment></comment>


How to build a fake Google Street View car - <AUTHOR> http://fffff.at/google-street-view-car/ <comment><USER2> Am I missing something? In an effort to "Fuck Google", they're driving like jerks and endangering people's lives and property.

Edit: This comment is from watching them dangerously cutting off cyclists and cars on the video.

<comment><USER3> I'm with you on this one.

Also, to me this feels like a really cheap move to try to spoil a brand's reputation. If they believe that there's a problem with google street view and privacy, they should try to raise awareness to it, not pretend to work for Google and act like jerks.

This way, the only thing that they achieved was damaging Google's reputation instead of making people aware of the privacy implications of cars with cameras capturing everything.

I believe they could have done something more interesting with this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> These guys are fucking crazy. In the entire European Union, this WILL get the driver and likely anyone involved with this behind jail for driving a vehicle not licensed for street usage!

Basically, you alter the car with not-licensed-for-street-usage components (these self-made things e.g. alter the ride height of your car from the one spec'd in the vehicle ID card), which in itself invalidates the car's insurance (it's not a vehicle legal to drive on a street, thus it is not insured, thus you are not allowed to drive it!).

It's the same as if you'd change the exhaust for an illegal tuning variant, add a N2O booster, add under-floor lighting etc. DO NOT EVER DO THIS IN ANY EUROPEAN COUNTRY.

<comment><USER5> Mounting something on the roof rack doesn't count as modifying in that way. If that was true, bicycle racks would be illegal.

I can't speak for the entirety of the EU, but I know for a fact that in the UK mounting something like this (assuming it's securely attached) is not illegal.

<comment><USER4> I got fucked up by the cops in Germany for putting a not-checked-by-TÜV selfmade wood casing upon the top of my car. These guys did this in Berlin... man, they're LUCKY to having gotten out without any consequences.

<comment><USER6> Was there a Google logo on the side of your car?

<comment><USER4> Haha, nope - but I bet Google did shell the ~300€ on proper certification and registration in the vehicle ID card.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A standard answer to "why?" is "why not?", or "because we can" but I really can't see any benefit to this? Is cosplay a thing for cars now?

<comment><USER8> The aim might be to get Google in trouble there in Germany, since Streetview wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms?

<comment><USER6> Oh come on. It's an art project. They want to see how people react to Street View cars in various situations.

<comment><USER9> Well, their 'project of the week' was "FUCK GOOGLE". It's right there on the article page. So, you know, political art. Performance art plus politics, aka propaganda of the deed. Cutting cyclists off in the name of liberty.

<comment><USER6> Yes, it's kind of political. They also say at the end of the video: "we like all your products, but no single company should be trusted with so much of our data". By driving around as Google and telling others to "turn off their cameras", they remind people that Google is basically spying on them.

While not everybody might agree with the message, I think the project is no less manipulative than the Google branding ads from India, which try to positively change your impression of a large company by showing you something very emotional.

<comment><USER10> Your argument is that if Google do it, you could do it? I don't share that opinion, if you consider that manipulative methods are bad, you shouldn't use them. Fight the lie by lying even more?

<comment><USER6> That depends on who you are:

As a politician or as a company, lying is pretty bad. "Manipulation" through emotional ads is more or less expected though, it would be unprofessional to not use the same tools as everybody else. Just watch any tv ad.

Artists meanwhile enjoy complete freedom in what they do. The more creative and provocative they are, the better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is of a kind with the guy who decided to pretend to be an arsehole Google employee at a demonstration against their buses. It goes right against the points they're trying to make: why pretend to be on the 'other side'? Obviously because the other side isn't acting the way you claim them to be.

</comment><comment><USER11> Two things:

1) IANAL, but I think it's a trademark infringement to use the Google logo on that car

2) Let's ignore them intentionally bothering drivers and cyclists, but you go through the pain of building a rig and you don't put a camera in it? A cellphone with a GPS? Goddammit!!!

</comment><comment><USER12> I love the fffff.at guys - they come up with the most pointless hacks, that never fail to brighten my boring work life and remind me to do something crazy every once in a while.

</comment><comment><USER13> Can I ask, Why? I don't understand why anyone would do this! The fact they have PDF's plans suggests to me that other muppets for some unknown reason want to pretend to work for Google. When did it become cool? Now a MI5 agents car with heat seeking missiles which blow up lane hogs.... that I would be interested in!

</comment><comment><USER14> How fucking stupid

</comment><comment><USER15> why?</comment>


Five products compete to protect clients from malware, viruses, and other threats - <AUTHOR> http://www.infoworld.com/article/09/02/11/06TC-endpoint-security_1.html

<comment><USER2> Hey Craig -- could you be more selective about your submissions?</comment>


Show HN: I made a registrar for domains on handshake TLDs - <AUTHOR> https://gateway.io <comment><USER2> Handshake is a experimental protocol of p2p DNS from what I understand

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, it is a DNS root zone built on a proof of work blockchain

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> So you can buy .txt and .js domains? Will these resolve like a normal DNS lookup?

<comment><AUTHOR> You have to use a handshake resolver. This explains how to do it with nextdns.io: [https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake- domains...](https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake-domains/)</comment></comment>


Noduino – Control Arduino with Node.js, WebSockets and HTML5 - <AUTHOR> http://semu.github.com/noduino/

<comment><USER2> I don't get it. Node.js is for fast, scalable servers that are IO bound. Arduino is for low-level hobby projects like blinking lights and moving motors. They can be part of a larger network of devices, but that's not the point.

My first Arduino project was a TCP server that turned a servo depending on a JSON request (it kinda followed the websocket protocol, without the handshaking). The client was a simple Go app. I understand the possibility for networked Arduino devices, but I think this project misses the point of Arduino development.

Not everything has to be written in JavaScript. The Arduino team has made C++ approachable for beginners, so develop for the Arduino, and you'll learn a lot more.

</comment><comment><USER3> Cool idea. This is exactly what I've been looking for. If you've never picked up a duino - do it! It's super fun and it will make you a better developer.</comment>


Can money buy you a higher GPA? - <AUTHOR> http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/19/want-a-higher-g-p-a-go-to-a-private-college/?ref=education

<comment><USER2> The author says that students won't take science courses because the average GPA is lower. Well that isn't the reason -- this is merely a consequence of students perceiving science classes as harder and requiring more work.

The solution should not be to make science classes easier or less work, but to increase the difficulty of humanities courses. The _culture_ of hard work is important to establish, whether you are a humanities student OR a sciences student.

<comment><USER3> The solution should also include making classes more interesting. That's another reason to avoid a class: it sounds boring. And what doesn't sound boring when it's in the context of signing away your time at specific hours every week for half a year and committing yourself to homework assignments and exams? I realize this isn't directly relevant to the trends in sciences vs. humanities, but it may be that when the whole paradigm is so dull people feel more incentivized to just choose the easiest path.

<comment><USER2> I suppose so, but frankly humanities classes will always be more interesting than science courses to many people because they relate more to our everyday lives (as ironic as that sounds, since science is all around us).

As a science student, I routinely loaded my schedule with humanities courses and hardly had to spend time on them (for the most part). There is no good reason why these courses were so easy in comparison to science courses, in my opinion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Being from the UK I've always been rather puzzled by GPA - we don't mark degrees that way at all. Traditionally there are only _four_ possible values for a honours degree (3 years in England 4 in Scotland) - First, Upper Second, Lower Second and Third. And the bias in most courses is usually to have this based largely on what you do in the final year.

The idea of being evaluated as an average of every class for the length of the entire course would fill most people here with absolute horror - it being fairly common for people to scrape through the first year of a course and then do really well in the later years.

[NB Degrees in Scotland are 4 years because entrance is based on exams that are done a year earlier than in England, either that or to allow for the extra drinking that is required].

<comment><USER5> A lot of students suffer under it. I know I did, spent the final 2 years trying to bring my GPA back to something respectable. A lot of departments now list your overall and in-major GPAs. The in-major holds more importance unless they are the laziest recruiters. In general, you'll take more foundational courses that don't count against your major GPA for the first year. By the time you're a senior most of your courses will be in your major and count accordingly.

I will say, that one of the major differences between the US and the UK is no one really gives a toss about where you went to school and what you studied in the US. On my CV I still list my school and major, but it's a footnote, right above my interest in photography and basketball. American recruiters rarely ask me about it, and UK recruiters think it's almost as important as my javascript knowledge.

<comment><USER4> When you say "school" there, do you mean university? As far I can see, people are equally interested in the US as the UK as to which university you went to - at least for the institutions that have strong brands.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Other things being equal, I bet smarter and/or harder-working kids end up at private schools. So I'd expect the "grade inflation" (I hate that term * ) effect to be amplified there.

* I hate the term because it is so often used as if to imply that if the students at a university do too well, the explanation cannot be the merit of the students, but that the courses are necessarily too easy. If getting 95% on an exam represents a high level of learning/knowledge/work, and all of the students score 95%, they should all get A's. Professors sometimes attempt to combat "grade inflation" by giving ridiculously hard exams ( _cough_ Andrew Ng _cough_ ), but IMO all this does is bring to the fore uninteresting factors like how well one performs under time pressure, or how quickly one can perform arithmetic, or whether one has a photographic memory.

<comment><USER7> While your statement is most likely true, the study controlled for this effect by comparing students with comparable SAT scores.

<comment><USER8> How is the SAT relevant? They should be looking at the GRE exclusively. This is one of the biggest problems with the US education system (and education in general.) The assumption is made that certain people cannot learn based on the fact that they know nothing.

Having been to a private liberal arts college, the environment is extremely rigorous. You can get the same sort of thing at state schools, but you have to be in the honors programs. I'd be interested to see if there are honors-track programs at the larger public schools that show the same "grade inflation." But because the public school is self-contained, the effect, that students in some classes consistently receive higher GPAs, is hidden.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Money can do almost anything, because people can do almost anything,, and people want money. Therefore, if you have money to spend, you can have whatever you want done.

</comment><comment><USER10> GPA in general is a rather baseless measure. Taking a class and getting an "A" means nothing; it's impossible for an outside evaluator to know whether that indicates a great effort in a tough class or an average effort in an easy class. I think we'd be better served with simply issuing z-scores and normalizing grades completely, so there's some real context.

<comment><USER11> The problem with this is how to decide which students fail and which pass a course. If you just use a cutoff on the z-score you will be consistently failing a certain proportion of the students, which might sound reasonable but completely ignores the fact that one is supposed to pass only the students that display knowledge on a minimal amount of the material. Theoretically, and A student completely knows the material, a B student mostly knows, with some less important parts missing, etc, and completely relativizing grades will lose this validation.

Another problem is that being a slightly-less-crappy student in a crappy class will give you a better z-score than being a great student in an excellent class.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Well, I was interested in how they got their data from my undergrad, Cornell, so I went looking...

Cornell publishes _median_ grades, and they "estimated" the mean GPA from the medians. As far as I know, there's no statistically valid way to do that. You would have to assume a normal distribution, and I know for a fact that many of the courses do not have one.

There could be a systemic bias if private schools differ in the way they report their data. For instance, are public schools required to report mean GPAs, whereas private schools can cherry pick their data?

</comment><comment><USER13> Anyone have any guesses for why the curve looks like it does? I can understand it going up in the long term, but why do private and public schools seem to follow the same basic curve? What causes a decline in GPA?

<comment><USER14> Schools made grading easier during the Vietnam war because the students who flunked out were eligible to be drafted.

<comment><USER15> I would _love_ a cite for this. It seems plausible, but if there's a cite, I'd be very grateful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In _Excellence Without a Soul_, Harry Lewis, a former dean of Harvard College (and comp sci prof) gives the grade inflation theories a drubbing.

</comment><comment><USER17> I would like to see the change in the enrollment of both types of schools. Maybe the enrollment of public schools increased faster than at private schools, so demand for private schools went up and thus they have better students than they used to.</comment>


Ask HN: Why Don't People Wear Masks For Pollution in Delhi? - <AUTHOR>

Yesterday Delhi's ambient concentrations of fine particulate matter (PM2.5) breached 800 micrograms/cubic meter according to real time data collected by the Delhi Pollution Control Committee.
As far as I am aware, no schools were closed, and I don't see anyone wearing masks. In Shanghai the public has been much more responsive and has voiced concerns regarding poor air quality.
For reference check out the wsj articles below (if you google search the titles you can bypass the login requirement in order to read the articles).
Shanghai https://www.google.com/search?q=Shanghai+Hit+by+Heavy+Air+Pollution
Delhi https://www.google.com/search?q=Delhi%27s+dangerous+air+pollution+problem
Steps to Reduce Your Exposure (US Embassy - Beijing) http://beijing.usembassy-china.org.cn/20130201-pm25-steps.html <comment><USER2> Below are the links to the Delhi Pollution Control Comittee's live feeds.

[http://www.dpccairdata.com/dpccairdata/display/index.php](http://www.dpccairdata.com/dpccairdata/display/index.php) [http://aqicn.org/city/delhi/r.k.puram/](http://aqicn.org/city/delhi/r.k.puram/)

</comment><comment><USER3> In India, there is no campaign about air pollution who can spread an awareness about this problem.

If celebrity can help like a polio vaccination campaign, then may be it can help us to regain our old environment...</comment>


Ask HN: Refocusing our Family-focused Startup for Business Users? - <AUTHOR>

Ramamia is our startup that helps families keep in touch with each other and store their memories. We've been using Ramamia with our team for a bit now and have had a few other companies inquire about it.
It's simpler and easier way to just share information with your team as a startup.  Sure, there are other companies out there, but we find this a lot easier than Sharepoint or something like SocialCast/Yammer.
We'd certainly pay for the product as a startup and think others would.  We would price somewhere around $9.99 per month for about 10 users a month with a good amount of storage (not sure on a number, but you would not have to worry about there not being enough).
Sign up for our service and let us know what you think. Should we stick with the family consumer market or refocus to the business app market?  Business users pay, we know them better being entrepreneurs, and families are hard to monetize with a paid product (we don't want to do ad supported).
I talked to Jason Fried after Startup School and he talked about how it was hard to sell to the consumer market, so they switched their Backpack app over to a team sharing thing. We can do both, too—as in, keep Ramamia and create an app for business users based off of Ramamia.
http://staging.ramamia.com
Thanks! <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable: <http://staging.ramamia.com>

</comment><comment><USER2> Just Curious..How you arrived at that name ramamia

<comment><USER3> it means my branches in spanish. we were originally going after the latin american market when we bought the domain. we realized, we wouldn't be able to use our product, and didn't beta launch with that focus.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Obligatory response to this (and most) web startups: why won't Wave kill this?

<comment><USER5> Having the ability to do something doesn't mean it'll be focused that way or convenient to use that way.

Look at Twitter and say: "why won't blogging kill this?" Part of the answer is focus: they're making some things easy, not just possible.

Part of the answer is demographic/cultural. Reddit isn't Hacker News, even if a lot of the technology is very similar, and StackOverflow isn't any of its many different-topic clones even if nearly _all_ of the technology is shared. A community is affected by focus, policies and advertising, not just the technology.

If Google Wave has the technology to kill most web startups (I'm not sure I believe this), then it's not focused enough to matter in almost any of their specific domains.

<comment><USER3> As one of the co-founders of Ramamia, I have to say this is a great answer, probably even better than I could give. Domain and niche expertise is powerful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> If you stick with families, you should position towards an individual niche like military families, grand parents, or someone along those lines. Marketing it would be pretty easy - take the military example; there are dozens of magazines that hit that demographic and you could very easily change your layout and focus and brand yourself towards military families. Once this was done I could imagine one of those magazines covering Ramamia for an article or 'site suggestion of the week' etc... just my 2 cents.

<comment><AUTHOR> Huh, interesting idea, thanks! Is there any kind of data on niche vs. general (and bigger) audience?

The press thing has actually happened twice, even though we haven't done any marketing nor have we press-launched yet. <http://screenshots.markbao.com/articles-20091104-162137.png>

<comment><USER7> Targeting a niche doesn't preclude you from later targeting another niche and ultimately "general (and bigger) audiences." It intensifies word of mouth effects because people in a niche are more likely to reference each other's buy decisions than in a general market (e.g. if you reach out to military families saying that other military families use it--provided, obviously that this is true--you are more likely to get signup than telling a general population that "families use it."). If you can't target a niche, at least initially, you may need to raise a lot of money to cover your customer acquisition costs.

The two press clippings you cite actually address two distinct niches: global families (families with members widely geographically separated who want to stay in touch), and scrap bookers, people who want to commemorate family events and milestones and pass them along. You don't have general press coverage, you have two distinct use cases.

Pay attention to what you early customers do, in particular the words that they use to describe the benefits of your offering. It will often give you a recipe for a niche. I note that neither "stay in touch with overseas relatives" or "on-line scrapbook to keep in touch" appear on your home page. You might spin it to incorporate one or both and reduce the generic language you are currently using.</comment></comment></comment>


Google rejects EU's search abuse complaint - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34076597 <comment><USER2> Google has the right to make whatever content they want appear when you navigate to their website and type something into the search box. Just like you and I have a right to put nearly whatever we want in our private web page.

They are not a public utility.

If you don't like what you see on Google, go search somewhere else.

If you don't like anywhere else, then run your own web crawler and build your own index.

The world does not owe you a spam-free, ad-free, impartial, quasi-complete search index with a query engine that responds in under a second. Such a thing takes a lot of research and money to produce and operate.

<comment><USER3> If Google purports to be a search engine and then gives preference to search results that benefit them, it's ethically similar to an fiduciary adviser recommending things that make him rich without regard for your well being. Google is not in a fiduciary relationship to you, but a similar ethical situation arises because fair competition (which laws protect in most countries - e.g., including anti-trust laws here in the US) is hard to be had when one company is tricking its customers (by making their ads look similar to search results) into thinking they're getting more for less (e.g., getting free search when in actuality they're being led to potentially less desirable products for Google's monetary gain).

If Google instead purported to be a "find products we like to recommend" engine, this situation wouldn't arise. I suspect less people would use their service in this case, and that should illustrated the point: if the value of your service decreases when you tell the truth, then you're, by definition, gaining an a business advantage by being dishonest.

<comment><USER2> People using Google search are not customers. They are visitors to a free web site where you can type stuff into a box, and other stuff appears of that web site's choosing. There are various assurances made or implied about what that stuff consists of. Those come from the website itself, so you're foolish if you completely believe them.

How about people who use other free stuff? People who load up GNU/Linux and log in to a Bash promp --- are they "GNU customers"? Does GNU have a monopoly because the users don't bother to find out about other operating systems and believe all the evangelizing which tells them that GNU/Linux is the best?

<comment><USER4> That is true. As we all know, if you use Google, you're the product being sold.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The only thing that seems suspicious there is the claim that traffic to aggregators has increased by 227% in the last decade. Overall Google traffic has increased by something like 500% in the last decade, so that would indicate a decrease in the percentage of redirections. I'm not sure if shopping aggregators are more or less popular, but that still seems like a deceptive number.

<comment><USER6> Just because overall traffic increased 500% that doesn't imply a decrease if you don't know what the distribution of searches are. If most of that 500% were looking for sports scores for example, then a 227% increase would be very impressive. Without more detailed data I don't think you can draw any conclusions.

<comment><USER5> Yes, that's what I mean about not knowing if aggregators got more or less popular over the last decade. I'm still not sure, but from a few searches, here's what I got:

Google Shopping is the #1 shopping aggregator according to this site: [http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/shopping- websites](http://www.ebizmba.com/articles/shopping-websites)

The #2 Coupons.com, is going downhill fast: [http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/coupons.com](http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/coupons.com)

The #3, Bizrate.com, is also going downhill fast: [http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bizrate.com](http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bizrate.com)

So it does seem like Google Shopping is taking over traffic from other aggregators.

<comment><USER7> All 3 aren't widely used in the EU. Especially not in Germany where the people from the EU who said these things coming from. Also the biggest price aggregator from Germany, Austria and others, are still rising and rising according to Alexa. I mean less people go through searches to these sites however thats caused by the fact that they have a really easy name.

What the EU government does is toxic. It does what it get's told by smaller companies that aren't satisfied with their sales. Thats more than toxic since it changes the free market, however thats what the european government always did, they don't make goods for the people they make goods for the money.

<comment><USER5> Google Shopping isn't usually accessed directly but rather through the main Google search. Good to hear that there are other ones rising too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "If users search for "price comparison" they will get Google's own ads before links to rival services"

Ehm no it wont....

If you search for price comparison you get nothing but price comparison sites, if you search for price comparison computers you get nothing but price comparison sites again, if you search for price comparison [buy] computers you will get some direct advertisement with prices.

I've started using Google Shopping in many cases it finds items which are cheaper than Amazon (for the most part discounting Argos and some other bigbox marts the cheapest Retailers in the UK at least as far as London goes). Unlike many price comparison sites it's easy enough to find a local store near you with the item you need in case of an emergency (If it's not on Amazon now ;)) and some times the price difference can be sufficient to not use a service like Amazon (30 days no hassle return is more than worth the occasional premium on Amazon for me). While I understand that this might be driving some people out of business price compression sites are just behind the curve and as "skewing" search results go than those sites are a much bigger offender than Google is.

Heck if i got to Pricegrabber (UK) now and search for "lenovo yoga 2 pro" I only get 1 relevant result on the 1st unfiltered page for what i want for 999gbp if I click the filters on the left and select laptop computers that result wont be shown, that result wont show up and the lowest result will be for 1098 GBP.

If i use Google Shopping i only get relevant results, the cheapest one is for a refurbished 494GBP and the cheapest new one is for 539 for a better model that there is on Pricegrabber....

The price comparison sites are just utter garbage, they don't update the product pages, they don't verify if the product is in stock or not, they don't give you alternative options and they give you an order of magnitude less results.

Google just grabs everything from it's index, the EU complaints is like telling email providers in the 90's that they need to stop offering mail-to- fax services and telegram services because it hurts the postal service...

If pricerunner, pricegrabber and the 1000 other price comparison sites weren't utter garbage this wouldn't be an issue you cannot legislate progress or lack of it.

</comment><comment><USER9> Wait, was the EU statement of objections only about comparison shopping?

<comment><USER10> No, not at all.

The statement was mostly about Google scraping data and not linking back.

One case: They post a review about a restaurant on Yelp!

Soon later Google Places displayed the same review text, but did not link back to Yelp!

When Yelp! complained, Google suggested Yelp! should just use robots.txt to unlist their site complete, or put up with the scraping.

In return, Yelp! and other companies went to the EU and complained.

<comment><USER9> > _No, not at all._

> _The statement was mostly about Google scraping data and not linking back_

That's been somewhat the narrative around here, but that doesn't appear to be true at all:

> _The Statement of Objections takes the preliminary view that in order to > remedy the conduct, Google should treat its own comparison shopping service > and those of rivals in the same way. This would not interfere with either > the algorithms Google applies or how it designs its search results pages. It > would, however, mean that when Google shows comparison shopping services in > response to a user 's query, the most relevant service or services would be > selected to appear in Google's search results pages._

[http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_MEMO-15-4781_en.htm](http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_MEMO-15-4781_en.htm)

I didn't realize this. I thought it was more wide ranging.

<comment><USER11> There is a separate formal investigation on Android currently: [http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details.cf...](http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details.cfm?proc_code=1_40099)

Additionally, the EC currently looks into Google's "copying of rivals' web content (known as 'scraping'), exclusivity in its agreements with advertising partners and undue restrictions of advertisers' ability to use competing advertising platforms" ([http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_STATEMENT-15-4785_en.ht...](http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_STATEMENT-15-4785_en.htm)) but that hasn't reached the formal stage yet.

<comment><USER9> So the answer to my question is still "yes", the statement of objections was only about comparison shopping :)

> _but that hasn 't reached the formal stage yet_

and it may never, considering the changes made for the FTC.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Applied all feedback on our landing page - <AUTHOR> https://www.dunster.io <comment><AUTHOR> Added logos of our partners, a few more partners will be added in a couple of days. Testimonials will be added soon as well as soon as we have permission to post.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Rephrased FAQs for more clarity and fixed pricing list.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Fixed misspelled words and grammar lapses.

<comment><USER2> You missed a few minor spelling issues, and some issues on an iPad. [https://app.pagewatch.dev/ece9a1806742a1d9c7c99839078f3becfc...](https://app.pagewatch.dev/ece9a1806742a1d9c7c99839078f3becfc8fd173/dashboard) Looks good though, good luck :)</comment></comment>


Photobucket was a steal vs. Google/YouTube - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/05/07/photobucket-was-a-steal-v-googleyoutube/ <comment><AUTHOR> \---In a year or so this deal is likely to look as brilliant for NewsCorp (which owns MySpace) as the MySpace acquisition was. Some would argue that they play dirty poker, but shutting Photobucket down at a crucial point in the acquisition negotiations was a brilliant move, and may have shaved hundreds of millions of dollars off of the purchase price.

Ouch.</comment>


Are the Top Apps Using Swift? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@ryanolsonk/are-the-top-apps-using-swift-42e880e7727f#.rl7yithjx <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10912905](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10912905) within the hour</comment>